REPLAY - Episode 39 - Karla Homolka and Paul Bernardo: The Ken and Barbie Killers

0:15 Welcome back everyone, to another episode of Two Crime

0:18 Besties. Hey Meg, how are you?

0:20 Good, thanks. How are you, Emma?

0:21 I'm. Good.

0:22 I've had a bloody busy week though.

0:24 My God, it was, this was the week of appointments.

0:26 We had so many extra appointments, so many extra

0:28 things and it's just been bloody mental.

0:30 So I had final appointment this morning and I'm like oh,

0:36 relaxing to the weekend now. I'm feeling like Sunday I can

0:39 probably, I can do that. I feel like breathe.

0:41 Yeah. Yeah, Saturday's gonna be mental

0:43 for us, but that's OK. Yeah.

0:45 Yeah. Even tonight I've like said to

0:47 the boys I got it's, you know, it's one thing after the other

0:49 tonight even to be prepared for what's coming.

0:51 I guess that whole, yeah, it's crazy.

0:54 You're you're hosting A sleepover for 8 year olds on the

0:56 weekends so. Haha I'm.

0:59 A fucking idiot. Glad it's not me.

1:02 Yeah, no sleep for me. That'll be fine.

1:05 You'll. Get You'll get sleep from Mike,

1:06 your son. Will not be the problem, No by

1:09 any means. He'll be asleep by 7:00 PM.

1:11 He's good, you know, the the boys, the others might push him

1:14 to 8. I don't know, God.

1:18 Although last night Oliver had footy training until 7 and Peter

1:24 had come to pick Lucas up to take him back early, but then he

1:26 didn't want to go and he was running around with a few kids

1:29 and having a play. Yeah.

1:30 So we actually, all of us didn't get home until, I don't know,

1:33 7:15 or something. And then they needed a snack

1:37 because I'd fed them dinner at, like, bloody 4:00.

1:39 Yeah. So they needed a bit of a snack

1:40 before bed. So he actually didn't get to bed

1:42 until until 8:00 anyway. And but then this morning, I had

1:48 to wake him up and it was like dragging.

1:51 I don't know. Yeah, someone who, a teen.

1:54 It was like dragging a teen out of bed.

1:56 This is a child rating, that fact, because that's my youngest

2:00 in the mornings he can be a shocker.

2:02 I had to wake him up the other morning too.

2:04 And. And that never starts the day,

2:06 well, when you have to wake them up 'cause then they're grumpy

2:08 and, yeah, tired. And I mean, I hate being woken

2:10 up. I.

2:10 Guess it's not it's not good. The alarm absolutely shits me.

2:13 Yeah, but yeah, no, I just. I'm sure it will be fine.

2:17 I'm sure that they will eventually fall asleep and I'm a

2:21 night owl so that's OK. Like it's more the fact I think,

2:24 I think that's the thing. I'm just gonna let them go a

2:26 little bit and. Oh yeah, they can just have a

2:28 chat. And stuff.

2:29 And then it'll I'll just have a cut off like right, come on,

2:31 guys. That's it.

2:32 Yeah. Off to sleep.

2:34 You go. Goodnight.

2:35 You're gonna wake up, Lucas. You're a night owl.

2:41 I'm the opposite. I'm going early to bed, early to

2:43 rise kind of a person. But they'll kill me when they

2:45 wake up in the morning at bloody 6:00 AM or earlier for Huck.

2:48 Well, yeah, apparently one of the kids who's going likes to

2:52 wake up early. So good luck.

2:54 Good luck. Oh.

2:55 I love Brody's sensible nature, he said to me.

2:56 Oh, no, no, no, not before 6:30. Oh.

2:59 No, that's just ungodly. Are you making pancakes for?

3:03 Breakfast. Yeah, absolutely.

3:04 It'll be pancakes for breakfast. Sweet.

3:06 Lucas will be happy with that, yeah.

3:07 Yeah, I'm just controlling the sugar, that's all.

3:10 No, you can get no in the morning.

3:11 You can give them as much sugar as you want 'cause you're just

3:13 handing them. Back hand them back to you guys.

3:15 Yeah, yeah, right. OK, cool.

3:16 Yeah, done. It's the night before I'd be

3:18 worried if I were you. I know I've sort of kept it at a

3:22 minimum, but yeah, I mean, I was still gonna do cake and stuff.

3:25 Oh yeah, yeah, they'll be right. No, it's exciting.

3:28 I know Lucas is very excited. This will be my first, like

3:31 multiple kids sleepover, so yeah, it'll be interesting.

3:36 I've held it off this far. It's not really a thing these

3:38 days though, is it? Like sleepovers are less common?

3:40 Like back in I used to have sleepovers all the time as a

3:43 kid, like every other weekend. I think almost every second

3:47 weekend I was at a friend's house for a sleepover I reckon.

3:51 I would say the same with me. My best friend growing up went

3:55 to a different primary school, Yeah.

3:56 And so we used to sleep over at each other's houses.

3:59 Yeah. At least every second weekend

4:01 we'd be at someone's house. Yeah.

4:03 But I think these days, and, you know, it's kind of a sad state

4:07 of affairs, but I'm, I would not let my kids sleep at anyone's

4:11 house unless I know like you, obviously, unless I know them

4:15 inside and Outback back to front.

4:16 And I've known you for many, many years.

4:18 Yeah, I, I, I wouldn't I. Don't no, I've had to like

4:22 squash a bit of my kids expectations of sleepovers for

4:25 that reason that I see it from both parents perspectives of

4:27 like, you know that yeah, I know, I know the mums say, but

4:30 maybe I don't know the dad and like and so you wanna know both

4:33 parents, they're going to you wanna know that, you know, you

4:35 sort of feel comfortable. And so absolutely, yeah, I kind

4:38 of feel like a little bit like, you know, it's fine.

4:40 I'm happy to have that child at my house and sleepover.

4:42 No worries. But, you know, that might not be

4:44 that child's comfort, that family's comfort level.

4:47 You know, it's kind of a real test of waters as to whether or

4:50 not that's something the family would be up for.

4:52 Yeah. You know how well you know each

4:54 other and. Yeah, I think you're right

4:55 though, that and maybe because we have boys, it's a bit

4:58 different. I don't know, maybe boys are

4:59 less into sleepovers. Yeah, I know my brother had less

5:03 sleepovers than I did when we were.

5:05 Kids, Yeah. Maybe so.

5:06 Maybe that's another thing, but also it's not like our kids of

5:10 being invited to that many sleepovers.

5:12 So I think most families probably feel the same way as we

5:15 do. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

5:16 I mean, like my kids sleepover at their grandparents place and

5:19 all those sort of things, so it's like for them to be away

5:21 from home like that is comfortable for them, whereas I

5:23 know other kids aren't. So yeah, that's true.

5:24 It's just in general for that reason too.

5:26 I mean, God, we should do sleepovers.

5:27 Even we'd go camping with families, you know, we'd all

5:29 swap tents and stuff and caravans that were sleeping when

5:32 we go camping. Sleepovers were just the thing.

5:36 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Crazy, crazy time.

5:40 Well, I'm gonna have a free and easy Saturday night when Lucas

5:43 is at your place. Yeah, I've decided we're gonna

5:46 take Oliver to that all you can eat sushi place.

5:48 I love it. When it comes down to that, oh,

5:51 finally we get to have some fancy food, Yeah.

5:53 But because you can't, you know that You know what's it called?

5:57 Oh my God, I've just had a mental okami.

5:59 Oh yeah, yeah. Which is an all you can eat

6:01 Japanese restaurant, but even to take Lucas there, yes you pay

6:05 the kid prices but it's still like $27.00 or $28.00 I think

6:09 for a kid. What's he gonna eat?

6:10 Some rice. And he's gonna eat rice.

6:12 Yeah. And even then, he doesn't really

6:13 like rice. He'd just be eating it

6:14 begrudgingly because there's literally nothing.

6:16 Else. To eat, whereas Ollie's gonna

6:18 absolutely make the most of. His He's gonna eat pork. 10

6:22 people's worth of all you can eat.

6:23 Yeah, so they can leave the house down there.

6:26 Forward to that. So oh, thank you for that.

6:29 Yeah, I love it because my eldest has decided to check out

6:33 for the night because he doesn't want to be around the little

6:35 ease having their sleepover either.

6:36 And I don't blame him. I was like can I join?

6:38 You, yeah, who has to stay home at the greeze so your dog can

6:43 look after. This I know.

6:44 I sort of went, I'll threaten them if they're not talking like

6:46 Grizz will eat you. Grizz is not going to enjoy

6:49 this, no. No, God, as if you'd eat them,

6:51 you'd lick them to death. Yeah, oh God, but then the the

6:54 new axolotl in the household will keep them entertained too.

6:58 I'll. So it was Brody's birthday this

7:00 week and all he wanted like he's been talking about this.

7:04 For for a long time, long time. All he wanted was an axolotl and

7:09 Meg caved. It's caved is literally the word

7:12 for it too. Like I don't.

7:13 Know he wore you down. No, he wore you down.

7:15 Well, that's true. And he does that a lot.

7:18 Yeah. Yeah.

7:19 But I mean, you know how it's one of those things where like,

7:22 I am so repulsed by this. Thing it is repulsed but.

7:26 The look on his face, one, when I told him you're gonna get that

7:30 and that's, you know, when the tank was revealed and we can go

7:33 choose one. But then the look again of when

7:36 he actually got it at the fish aquarium place.

7:40 I could make tell the people what the lady at the aquarium

7:43 said. She so she he was so freaking

7:46 excited, couldn't only couldn't contain himself.

7:48 And she's like, oh wow, you're, you're a bit excited.

7:50 You're a bit like a giddy mum. Like a giddy new mum.

7:55 Like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Now he's basically keeps saying

7:58 to me, I am the father of one. Yeah, well, he tells me all the

8:01 time now. Yep, Yep.

8:02 Well, it takes a lot of care to look after an axolotl.

8:05 Yeah, you had to defrost some like shrimp stuff or something.

8:08 The other day put it in frozen at least but at the same time

8:11 it's like oh but watching it later.

8:13 Yeah, they're just so ugly. Oh, I kind of looked at it last

8:18 night and had a moment. Of oh, you did not.

8:20 No, it was sorry. I looked at it and went, if I

8:23 imagine that it's, you know, that movie How to Train Your

8:25 Dragon? Yeah.

8:27 Toothless, I think it's name, Yeah.

8:28 Toothless. Right, 'cause it's this black

8:32 Mexican walking fish thing. And I kind of looked at it and

8:34 went, oh, I can see a little bit of toothless and toothless is

8:38 kind of cute. Toothless is cute.

8:39 So I'm a cartoon. If I try and lean into, it's

8:42 toothless. Toothless.

8:44 OK, Kyle, as he's been named. Kyle, I just love it.

8:48 I just love it. It's the best.

8:50 Yeah. The the morning after you got

8:52 the axolotl 'cause you gave him the tank on his birthday, but it

8:56 was over a long weekend so you had to wait until.

8:59 The Tuesday to go and get the actual annual and get the water

9:02 right before you're allowed. You can put the thing in there.

9:05 I don't know, I know. Have you got to have the right

9:07 pH level? Oh, yay, yay for you.

9:10 It's. As bad as having a pool, like

9:11 you've got to go get the water tested and shit.

9:13 Really. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

9:14 This is. A commitment.

9:15 Oh, it's yeah. Yeah, how long do they live for?

9:19 12. Years they do not. 12 years.

9:24 Are you kidding? I was thinking you'd you was

9:26 about to say 12 months and I was like, even that's a.

9:30 Commitment 12 years. Wow, Oh wow.

9:34 OK it. I I didn't know that until after

9:37 we got it. That's mental.

9:41 Yeah. OK.

9:42 Well, Yep. Welcome to the next 12 years of

9:44 your life. I don't think it'll last that

9:46 long. If the frogs are going to go

9:49 far. Hey, they lasted a couple of

9:51 years. Oh, okay, yeah, yeah, okay.

9:56 A couple of years. If it's a couple of years,

9:57 that's all right. Just make it, make it that way.

10:03 Oh, bless the Little Axe a little.

10:04 Oh, Kyle, Kyle Gorge. All right, I've got a few shout

10:09 outs for well, I've got a shout out for this week, actually,

10:12 because this person deserves A singular shout out for the

10:16 episode today. Absolutely, because she actually

10:18 bought us 10 coffees on buymeacoffee.com.

10:22 Two crime besties, if anybody else would like to also partake,

10:26 but thank you a million times over to Emma James for her very,

10:32 very generous contribution to the podcast.

10:35 Yes, so very appreciate. We really appreciate it.

10:37 And she just said favorite podcast.

10:39 That was her comment. And I'm like, Oh my God, we're

10:43 someone's favorite podcast. I love that.

10:47 It's fine. It's actually really humbling,

10:48 don't you? Yeah, completely.

10:50 Yeah, yeah, I love it. I know when I'm like, we get

10:53 inbox messages and stuff like that and I really do my best.

10:56 I try to respond to every single one that we get and they,

10:59 they're growing the amount we're getting.

11:00 So and I, I write back and I love then I get back little

11:03 responses. I'm like, Oh my gosh, we

11:04 answered or, you know, like, 'cause I think people expect us

11:08 not to, but I'm like, oh, it's just me at my work.

11:10 Yeah, like might be at my job. Like kind of just respond to

11:13 that person quickly. Yeah, you know, like, you know,

11:16 so 'cause we've gotta have real lives where we just gotta earn

11:20 money. Yeah, that's it.

11:21 Unfortunately, yeah, Yeah. Oh, the dream.

11:23 The dream for this to be a paid job, That would be amazing.

11:26 I absolutely love that people are really enjoying it to that

11:29 point where they want to contribute.

11:31 And yeah, so thank you very, very, very much.

11:33 Yes. Thank you.

11:34 Very much appreciated. Yeah.

11:36 All right. Should we get into today's case?

11:38 Let's This is a big one. This is a.

11:40 Big one, but it won't be A2 parter, no, because we've we're

11:43 trying to keep it pretty high level.

11:45 The other thing we just wanted to say before we get started

11:47 about this one is that there is a lot of conflicting information

11:52 out there. And I think it's by nature of

11:54 the fact that there are so many podcasts and articles and so

12:01 much stuff out there. Opinions.

12:03 And I've exactly. And.

12:05 Yeah. And you can find information to

12:08 support whatever you want to support.

12:10 Yeah. But then I think in that the

12:13 telling of things has gotten twisted all over time.

12:16 So we've done our absolute best. Yeah.

12:18 To get what we know to be factual.

12:21 If we get things wrong, we're really sorry.

12:23 We really have done our best to try and keep this all on track.

12:26 Yeah, so today we are talking about Carla Homolka and Paul

12:31 Bernardo, also known as the Canon Barbie doll killers from

12:34 Canadia. Canadia from Canada.

12:36 Canada EE look, this is our first Canadian case too, which

12:41 is, I mean, I love Canada, so I think Canada is just a beautiful

12:46 place that. But not only that, like I think

12:48 I feel we feel a little bit of kinship between Australia and in

12:51 Canada. So, you know, I think very

12:53 similar values. I don't know, like that sort of

12:55 stuff with Canada. Agree, like every Canadian I've

12:58 met has always been such a nice person.

13:00 Never met a Dick head Canadian. I yeah write them, write them.

13:04 Got got quite a few Canadian friends ones, some that have

13:07 moved here permanently and others that are that live in

13:10 Canada that yeah, from growing up and travelling and stuff.

13:12 But every time I met a Canadian travelling, like they'll just

13:15 always great people that and good people that you stayed in

13:18 touch with, you know, like kind of they were, yeah.

13:20 Just good people, good people. We are gonna be talking about a

13:23 total piece of shit. Yeah, so we've only got one,

13:26 well two pieces of shit in this. But yeah.

13:30 And I have to say, like when we when you told me the name of

13:32 these, this case that we were doing of being Carla Hamilker

13:35 and Paul Bernardo, I was like, Oh my God, I don't know this

13:37 one, you know. But as soon as I let went to

13:39 research and it came up with Ken and Barbie killers, I was like,

13:42 oh, I do know this. And that's all I knew it as.

13:46 I just didn't know the names of them that were like to the.

13:50 I've listened to podcasts about them, but clearly hadn't

13:53 registered their names. Yeah.

13:55 But yeah. So as soon as I was like, I saw

13:57 that, I was like, oh, I know what we're doing.

13:58 Like, right. I was onto it.

13:59 Cool. Yeah, when I first got into

14:02 listening to podcasts, specifically True Crime,

14:05 obviously Serial was the first podcast I listened to.

14:08 Yeah, but then this I the very next one, after I'd finished

14:12 listening to Serial, the next podcast I listened to was

14:16 Canadian True Crime. That's the name of the podcast.

14:18 And this was the first episode she did.

14:20 The first episode, yeah. Or first, I think it was a 2

14:23 parter. Yeah.

14:24 And so, yeah, I feel like that's, it's really kind of

14:27 etched into my memory. Yeah, just listening to her.

14:30 And then anyway, obviously there's lots out there.

14:32 Have to say I know 'cause in one of those her episodes, I think

14:35 that in those first two episodes she sort of says something like,

14:38 this is my first, you know, be gentle God, they're bloody good

14:41 though for for their they're being her first two episodes

14:44 that blows my mind how she's. Australian, actually.

14:46 You know what? And listening to it, and I think

14:48 it was a real listen, to be honest.

14:49 Like when I was listening to it this time, I have a feeling I

14:51 had listened to it like a couple of years ago, kind of sort of

14:54 thing. Yeah.

14:56 And I was listening and I'm like, she sounds a bit

14:57 Australian, not Canadian at times and.

14:59 I'm Australian, yeah. Yeah.

15:01 So she moved there. I think she married a Canadian,

15:04 right? She moved there and.

15:06 That makes so much sense now, 'cause I'm, yeah, I do remember.

15:08 I think one day I was in my car and it just flicked on and I'm

15:12 like, oh, but I thought I was listening to Canadian true crime

15:14 and 'cause I'm like, this is an Australian.

15:15 What's going on? Yeah, I thought my podcast had

15:17 flipped to another. Yeah, OK, cool.

15:20 I was onto it. But worth worth a listen.

15:22 I I totally rate her. I think she's really good.

15:24 No, I'm blown away. Like, 'cause you know, our first

15:27 episodes don't sound that good. I don't.

15:28 Reckon Oh God, no, no, but and I've listened to it.

15:31 She's done a few, you know, like episodes like we did with our

15:34 Q&A episode. And she talks about, like in her

15:38 first episode, she was recording in a closet.

15:40 Yeah. And we talked about that because

15:42 we're trying to get our, our sound, right.

15:44 We're like, we need to be in like how, Yeah, how closets and

15:47 things. Yeah, Carpet.

15:48 We need carpet, yeah. We need padded walls for more

15:51 reasons than one. All right, So where do we where

15:57 do we start? I'm gonna just start with Carla.

15:59 Yeah. Yeah.

16:00 So Carla Homolka was born on the 4th of May in 1970.

16:03 Her middle name is Leanne. That will come into play a bit,

16:06 little bit later. She was born in Mississauga, ON,

16:10 in Canada, which is near the Niagara Falls region, so

16:15 absolutely stunning part of the world.

16:17 You've been there? No.

16:18 Oh, yeah, I have. It's absolutely amazing.

16:20 It's incredible. Another spot on the list.

16:22 Yeah, another spot that comes up is Niagara on the Lake, which is

16:25 just down from Niagara Falls, and that, honest to God, is one

16:29 of the most beautiful spots. It's just spectacular.

16:32 Anyone who goes to Niagara Falls, take the trip down the

16:35 road a bit further and go to Niagara on the Lake.

16:37 So beautiful. Yeah, imagine living there.

16:39 Like growing up there. Absolutely stunning.

16:42 That blows my mind that's that place.

16:44 Loved it. Karla was born to parents

16:47 Dorothy Hamolka. And now it's either Karel or

16:49 Karl. I guess it depends how you want

16:52 to say it, I guess. The anglicized version of his

16:54 name is Karl. Yeah.

16:55 It's spelled Karel. He was a Czech immigrant and,

17:02 you know, as a profession, once they moved to to Canada, he was

17:07 a travelling salesman. Colour used to tell people that

17:10 he was an art dealer. But what he actually did for

17:13 work, do you remember back in, I'm gonna say it's like the 70s,

17:17 maybe even. Yeah, probably in the 70s, those

17:20 velvet paintings, Like I reckon everyone had a velvet painting

17:24 in their house. No.

17:26 Hideous. The most hideous.

17:28 Well, as most things wear. For gaudy shit, yeah.

17:30 Yeah. Was there orange in it?

17:32 Oh, of course. And gold, but I mean, burnt

17:36 orange, the 10, the 10 velvet paintings does it all, doesn't

17:39 it? 70s to boot.

17:41 So he was, that was what he did. He went and sold these bloody

17:44 gaudy paintings around town. But Colour liked to tell people

17:47 he was an art dealer. Colour's mum, Dorothy was an

17:53 administration assistant at a geriatric clinic.

17:56 So she did most of the, I guess, child rearing because Carell

18:01 was, you know, often away for work, as is the nature of

18:06 somebody who's a travelling salesman, I suppose.

18:08 But when he was home, he wasn't the nicest of people.

18:10 No, he was quite violent, Yeah, and physically and emotionally,

18:16 verbally abusive, and I believe he was.

18:18 He had a very tight rein on the purse strings as well.

18:23 So I think there was some financial abuse going on within

18:25 the household too. Yeah, yeah.

18:27 I mean, that just gives a little bit of an idea of of the the

18:30 state of affairs in that household, so.

18:32 Apparently, he one stage had an affair and his wife found out

18:37 about it, and her way of correcting that and trying to

18:40 fix that in their marriage was to just invite her the affair

18:45 into the bedroom and have a threesome.

18:48 Seriously. Yeah.

18:52 EW. So I mean, it sort of starts

18:55 that whole idea of what kind of things were happening in that

18:59 household for what was to come for Carla.

19:03 I suppose so, but my fucking God.

19:07 Yeah. Wowza.

19:09 Yeah. Carla had two siblings, so Carla

19:14 was actually the eldest. Then she had a sibling, another

19:18 sister named Laurie. She was born in 1971 and and

19:22 second sister born in 1975 by the name of Tammy Lynn Hamolka.

19:28 Again, we'll come into play later.

19:30 Yeah, I think not only. OK, sorry, I'm just spinning out

19:38 about this threesome thing. But I think Carell was also a

19:42 drunk. And yes.

19:43 So basically anytime he was at home, he's drinking, he's

19:47 obviously a fucking. I mean, I knew he'd had affairs.

19:49 I had no idea they'd invited someone back.

19:52 She'd invited someone back into the bedroom to what end?

19:55 Like, was she just trying to please him?

19:56 Please. Him, I think, yeah.

19:57 OK, so I guess the girls would have seen that pleasing nature,

20:01 maybe not necessarily the threesome.

20:03 No. The fact that her mum accepted

20:06 the affair and moved on with. It yeah yeah, that's how she

20:11 what was the way to fix that Yeah was well, you know, if

20:14 you're going to have affairs, we'll just bring them home with

20:16 you rather than have it outside of the home I think.

20:20 Wow. That, that blows my mind.

20:23 Yeah, Carla was a very intelligent girl.

20:28 Yeah. She had a high IQ.

20:30 She they say that she had sort of superior intelligence.

20:33 So yeah, that's a like a significant 130, sort of exactly

20:37 a significant IQ. She was a really good student.

20:40 Her peers referred to her as a bit of a Princess and.

20:44 But also a bully. Yeah, she wasn't.

20:47 Well, I think it depended on who you were.

20:49 I think she chose her targets in terms of.

20:51 Oh, that's a typical bully, isn't it?

20:53 I see. In terms of who she would would

20:55 target in those ways, yeah. She also did some really weird

20:59 shit as a kid. So she killed her friend's

21:02 hamster. Now, the way they did this, this

21:04 is horrible. Yeah, But they basically decided

21:07 to make a parachute for the hamster and then throw the

21:10 hamster out of the second, testing the parachute.

21:13 Yeah, so apparently when they did this, the hamster died and

21:17 the friend was absolutely distraught by this.

21:21 Yeah. Colour, on the other hand,

21:23 didn't seem to really care. No, They then buried the hamster

21:28 and two weeks later Carla decided to dig it up just to see

21:33 what had happened to it and how it had decomposed or how much it

21:36 had decomposed in two weeks. Yeah, I mean, this is red flag

21:40 territory, isn't it? Absolutely, Absolutely.

21:43 Yeah. She had people described her as

21:45 sort of having those bully traits but also lack of empathy,

21:48 even as a young child. Yeah.

21:50 So there was sort of these things were coming out in her.

21:53 She then as a teenager started sort of going into sort of bit

21:57 goth kind of dark makeup and things like that and sort of,

22:01 you know, ventured into that sort of territory.

22:03 Not there's anything wrong with that if that's you're into that

22:05 sort of thing. But I think she took it to

22:06 another level like she was obviously.

22:08 Super into it. Yeah.

22:09 She was also like, in this is we're sort of in her high school

22:12 years now. Yeah.

22:14 She was experimenting with drugs and sex.

22:16 Her first boyfriend, they had sex really, really quickly.

22:19 Yeah. He explains it very differently

22:21 to her though, the sex and the relationship they had sexually.

22:24 Well, she says it was all like BDSM massively, like, yeah.

22:27 And he was like, no, it was just.

22:29 Really normal. Sex, like yeah, I mean your

22:32 first sexual experience, you're not really out there, no BDSM

22:36 ING it up are. You well, I mean, not normal,

22:38 no, no, like, but maybe her. I wouldn't be surprised.

22:42 But then for him to describe it in later on, like to sort of be

22:45 saying, Oh, no, like, I mean, I don't know what would what game

22:51 would he have to lie about or, or, you know, to go along with

22:53 it or whatever. That's he.

22:55 He very much describes it as a very vanilla knowing sexual

22:58 relationship of young, of young teenagers.

23:00 Yeah. Knowing what we know about

23:02 colour, I fully believe what he says.

23:04 Yeah, well, I believe what he says, but I also would believe

23:06 what she said in some ways too. Yeah, I don't know.

23:09 She also started cutting herself around this time, but she'd only

23:12 got herself like fairly enough to make a mark she wanted to.

23:16 Show people Yeah, she wasn't really like she was telling

23:19 people she wanted to kill herself.

23:21 And that was that was what went with this whole goth picture.

23:23 And that's what I mean by she took it to another level that

23:26 she thought she was like, yeah, I don't know, showing something

23:28 off to people as, you know, look, I want to try and kill

23:30 myself. She didn't really.

23:32 She was just doing it for. Attention, which I mean, which

23:35 is faithful. That's probably a whole nother

23:37 yeah thing we could get into, but it's just something she did.

23:40 Yeah. She really developed an interest

23:43 in animals early on, the hamster situation.

23:46 You see, her interest in animals to me is a is a red flag.

23:51 And it sounds very altruistic. Like, you know, I wanna look

23:53 after animals. She didn't wanna look after

23:55 animals, I don't think. I think there was definitely

23:58 something more going on there. Yeah.

24:01 While she was at high school, she had a part time job at a pet

24:05 shop. Yeah, type shop, Yeah.

24:07 And then that continued after she finished high school.

24:10 She then went to work in a quite a few actually, I think 3 or 4

24:14 different vet clinics. Yeah, as a as a vet assistant.

24:17 Yeah. Is that just like a vet nurse?

24:19 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Interesting, might just get into

24:25 a bit of a back story about. Paul Yeah, 'cause I mean at 17,

24:28 yeah, the two crossed paths, that's right.

24:30 So we're. We're there.

24:31 Yeah, we're there. Maybe we'll.

24:33 Start now back. Yes, yeah.

24:34 So Paul Kenneth Barnardo was born on the 27th of August in

24:38 1964 to parents Marilyn Barnardo and Kenneth Barnardo.

24:44 He was born in Scarborough, ON, near Toronto, a suburb of

24:49 Toronto. And Kenneth was a marble and

24:54 tile salesman and Craftsman. So I think he did a lot of, I

24:58 don't know, like carving of marble and that kind of thing,

25:02 but also then did marble for like countertops and things like

25:06 that. I believe he owned his own

25:07 business. Yeah, there was a fair bit of

25:09 money in the family. They were quite well off.

25:11 Yeah, they absolutely were. That was, I think thanks to

25:14 Kenneth's, Kenneth's parents, they were very wealthy.

25:18 I think they were lawyers and that one was a a justice, I

25:24 think. Yes, I believe.

25:25 Yeah, yeah. They're both lawyers now.

25:26 I'm sorry. You're Yeah.

25:28 Yep. So there was, there was a fair

25:29 bit of wealth, like familial wealth within that family.

25:32 Yes, Paul had two siblings. So Paul was actually the

25:37 youngest of his family. He had a the middle sister was

25:40 named Debbie and then his older brother David again.

25:45 This family is so fucked up. It is not even this.

25:50 It's actually worse than Carla's.

25:52 Family. Yes, I I I agree.

25:53 Bernardo's dad so Kenneth. Absolute fuckwit that.

25:58 He is actually. Wasn't no so his so not his

26:01 biological dad will get to that in a SEC.

26:03 But the father, the father figure of the family, Kenneth

26:07 sexually abused his sister and he would do it in front of other

26:12 family members. So they'd be sitting at a family

26:14 dinner table and he'd be fondling, fondling her under the

26:19 table. What a piece of shit.

26:23 Sorry there's so many pieces of shit.

26:25 Oh, actually we said to at the start of the at the start, but

26:27 there's so many more. Absolutely disgusting.

26:30 But he also it, it also went to full intercourse.

26:34 It was just the most heinous of abuse against his own daughter.

26:40 Yeah, and I'm sure it extended beyond her or.

26:42 Apparently. Yeah, apparently he did do

26:44 similar to nieces and cousins and things too, apparently.

26:48 Total piece of shit. Was he ever convicted of that?

26:50 I don't. Believe no, I didn't read

26:52 anything about it, but it was known.

26:54 It was known. But I don't know that he was.

26:55 I'd never actually read that he was ever convicted of any of it.

26:58 I don't think he was. I was looking.

27:00 I couldn't. Certainly not under his name

27:02 that I could find. Yeah.

27:03 I don't know if he's. I mean sometimes when

27:06 perpetrators are perpetrators are offending against children

27:11 sometimes, and in Canada I think this happens semi frequently

27:15 where they will change the perpetrator's name so that

27:18 they're not fucking murdered or raped in prison even though they

27:20 deserve to be. But I'm not sure.

27:25 I just never actually saw anything to that.

27:27 But as you said, it was known within the family that he was

27:29 doing it and fucking nobody did anything about it, I don't

27:32 think. Yeah, but he, so he physically

27:37 abused his, his mum as well as, and, and Paul as well.

27:43 So other members of the family were also, you know, targets of

27:46 his in other ways, which was awful.

27:48 He he spoke to his Paul's mother atrociously, you know, treated

27:54 her like absolute shit. But yeah, as the as he grew up

27:57 Paul, it was told to Paul eventually that he wasn't

28:01 actually his biological son. His mom had had an affair and

28:06 fallen pregnant. And so but that sort of flicked

28:10 a switch for Paul. And he really just began to

28:14 treat his mother then as he's the father in the household

28:17 treated her and he spoke to her disgustingly.

28:21 And he really took a turn from that point that seemed to be a

28:24 bit of a trigger for him. Not, not that I think it was

28:27 perfect before that because I think it was a bit of a spoilt

28:29 brat kind of from what the vibe I could get.

28:32 But but it really it ramped up his in the home behaviour of

28:39 quite disgustingly treating his mum and his disdain then maybe

28:42 for women in general sort of seemed to kick in, I think so he

28:46 was. 16 years old when he found out this information.

28:49 So I mean, that's a, that's a critical point in your life.

28:52 Isn't it so? But from all accounts outside of

28:54 the home, he was like model person.

28:59 Everyone respected him and thought it.

29:01 Was been a little charismatic by any chance Meg?

29:04 I think that might be a weird ideas.

29:05 Because he absolutely portrayed this, this kind of image of the

29:09 perfect young man. Yes.

29:12 And he was very polite and he was engaging and he'd, you know,

29:16 ask people all the right questions and do all of the

29:18 right things. He was studying at university

29:21 and he was very. Attractive by the that day

29:24 standards and. I know I love the photos of

29:27 like, you know, those, the like wedding things like that.

29:29 You have that era and you're like, I totally see.

29:32 You can see the fact that people were like this was Ken and

29:33 Barbie. They were very attractive

29:35 people, both Carla and him, very attractive people for the time.

29:39 You know, the hairstyles, the clothing, the poofy, you know,

29:44 shoulders on, clothes on the dresses.

29:46 And I love that stuff. I love it.

29:47 But yeah, definitely, you know, by standards of that, they were

29:52 an attractive couple, absolutely.

29:55 And that I think that's where this gets really almost like a

29:59 bit more awful because they were so normal and so look so normal

30:04 looking. You know that that what the the

30:06 persona, that of what outwardly who these people were separately

30:10 before they even met each other, as well as then when they come

30:12 together is that they were this beautiful couple who, you know,

30:17 likes. Nobody expects these gorgeous

30:19 people to be anything other than what they're putting out there

30:23 into the world. Yeah, I just noted down as well.

30:26 So not only was Paul at this time, at the age of 16 finding

30:30 out his dad isn't his dad, that'd be, you know, that'd be

30:34 horrible. But then the sorry and you were

30:38 saying he would abuse his mother and he would call her things

30:40 like slut, whore, just really degrading things.

30:43 But she then would actually fire back at him and she called him

30:49 things like the bastard from hell.

30:51 And so the volatility within that household.

30:55 Must have been. Just mental.

30:58 Yeah. Paul's biological father was a

31:02 man by the name of Bill. Right.

31:05 He was actually, he was actually Marilyn's first ever boyfriend

31:11 and the love of her life. But her parents didn't approve

31:14 of him. And so they made her break up

31:18 with him. And then she found Kenneth.

31:20 And because Kenneth came from money, her parents were like,

31:23 yes, let's go with him. Yes.

31:25 Oh, and then look how that. Turned out.

31:27 So you've got to wonder though, I mean, he's the product.

31:29 He's still the product biologically of those two

31:31 people. But would he have been

31:33 different, raised in a different well?

31:35 This is nature and nurture. Yeah, that because that

31:37 psychological side of it just pricks my interest that yeah.

31:42 Oh God. But then I look biologically at

31:46 Kenneth's actual biological children, Debbie and David.

31:50 Who who he targeted too. Like it's not like he only gave

31:52 shit to David. I mean, clearly the sister

31:54 particularly copped a lot and they've turned out.

31:58 Well, they not to have done what exactly?

32:00 Perpetrators of these crimes. OK.

32:04 As a younger so I think this was sort of again around this 1617

32:10 Mark, Paul's behaviour started escalating.

32:15 So he had pyromaniac inclinations.

32:20 So suppressive box #1 Yep, Yep, right.

32:23 Dark sexual fantasies. He wanted to create a virgin

32:26 farm where he could breed virgin girls to rape.

32:34 OK. Yep.

32:35 That's a new one. Yep, that was.

32:37 A virgin farm? Yep.

32:41 I mean, you'd have to be pretty forward thinking, wouldn't you?

32:43 Because, I mean, you'd be, you'd be.

32:46 Calling him an entrepreneur, Entrepreneur, but.

32:48 You'd be 20 years, you know, of, I don't know, depending on how

32:51 old the girls are. But I don't know what made him

32:53 think this, but he actually wrote out a detailed plan

32:56 somewhere that someone found. Oh my God, he'd written how he

32:59 was going going to do this. Well, I mean, this is the thing.

33:01 I mean, he liked them younger and yeah.

33:04 And they had to be virgins. So I mean, oh God.

33:09 He collected pornography around this time as well.

33:13 Yeah, not not your vanilla pornography, though.

33:16 He liked to see women defecating on other women.

33:20 That was his particular pornographic.

33:26 I don't. Type of like choice.

33:28 I don't just get how that can be.

33:31 I really don't. Know, but that was what he liked

33:33 and he also really liked watching group sex.

33:39 OK, yeah, that's your thing. I can come with that more than I

33:43 can shitty on each other. Yeah, yeah, He was also, at this

33:49 time, again, this is another tick for you.

33:52 He started being a bit of a neighborhood peeping Tom.

33:56 His dad was, too. Yeah, not biological dad.

33:59 Yeah, Kenneth. Yeah, Kenneth was a peeping Tom

34:02 as well. Yeah, Kenneth used to, was

34:03 actually caught once masturbating at the front of a

34:06 down the side of a neighbour's house looking at their next door

34:08 neighbor. Gross girl.

34:10 The girl, not the mum. Right, see that's see that's the

34:13 thing these behaviours to me emulate him who's not

34:17 biologically his father exactly so the man.

34:19 Who raised him but talking nurture here?

34:21 Aren't. Yeah, yeah.

34:23 Interesting. Very interesting, Yeah.

34:26 From the time Paul had girlfriends and he started, you

34:31 know, with that when he was in his teens as well, he was

34:33 physically abusive towards them. Yeah.

34:37 He also, according to two of his very early girlfriends, he only

34:43 wanted anal sex. He did not want like, PNV sex at

34:47 all. And he always wanted to use wine

34:52 bottles in their sexual play to essentially sodomize his

34:58 girlfriends with the wine bottles.

35:03 This then escalated in one of his relationships to

35:06 strangulation. And at that point, this

35:10 girlfriend was like, no, I'm out.

35:12 And she she actually says, I really feel like I escaped.

35:17 No. An untold or unknown?

35:20 Yeah, horror from staying with him.

35:22 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Awful.

35:26 So he had a few different jobs along the way.

35:29 Yeah. Pride this is this is all prior

35:31 to meeting colour. He had a paper route as a young

35:35 kid. He then worked as a security

35:37 guard and a waiter while he was in university.

35:41 He became obsessed with self help books and like like those

35:47 books that sort of to make yourself better, but to what?

35:51 Like I don't really understand the motivation because he was

35:54 like this fucking sexual sadist and he was.

35:56 Well, his Bible was American Psycho.

36:00 That was his favorite. Book.

36:01 Yeah. I think he read that as a self

36:05 help kind of style book almost. Well, by the nature of what we

36:09 know happened next, you're probably right.

36:11 Yeah, yeah. I think the self help books

36:14 actually like taught him how to be persuasive because there were

36:18 things like, you know, how to win friends and influence

36:21 people. Those kinds of books, yeah, I

36:23 think he really used them because he was like clearly

36:25 socially quite fucked up that that was how he learnt to charm

36:30 people, to then get them to do what he wanted them to do.

36:33 Because the other way he learnt to do that was through becoming

36:35 an Amway salesman. Oh.

36:37 Yeah, that's right. Oh, pyramid ski.

36:39 Yeah, but. Him and his mates from Amway

36:42 would use those skills of how to sell products, right, People's

36:45 doors, they were using them and going out and use that to pick

36:50 up women at bars. They use those same principles.

36:53 So yeah, he was learning how to be a human, like how to be

36:57 normal and following. Those rulebooks, it wasn't

37:00 innate. He had to learn.

37:01 Learn that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

37:03 But yeah, I love. I thought that was a bit

37:04 hilarious, using those same skills on women in the bars,

37:06 but. And apparently it worked.

37:09 Oh bloody weird. He went to the University of

37:11 Toronto and he did like a business type degree.

37:17 He would lie to girls to get them to sleep with him and then

37:20 they would never last long because a they'd find out that

37:23 he'd lied to them. And also he obviously wanted the

37:27 type of sex that maybe those girls didn't.

37:28 Necessarily want escalate to a point where they'd be oh God no

37:31 it would become abusive like yeah and every relationship he

37:35 had but. I feel like it happened right

37:38 from the get go. It's not like he eased them into

37:40 it. No, no sort of went, oh, this

37:41 is, you know what I'm into. Would that be something that

37:44 would interest you to? Now he's forcing that shit on.

37:46 That yeah, he was. And I think that's because he

37:48 really didn't kind of want someone who was into it.

37:52 That kind of probably ruined some of the fantasy for him.

37:55 Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely.

37:58 He became a junior accountant at Pricewaterhouse after graduating

38:03 from university. And so he actually had quite a

38:06 decent job there, yeah, and was earning pretty good money.

38:10 And he kind of was setting himself up, you know, for a

38:15 future. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

38:18 But in the background of all of that.

38:21 On the 4th of May in 1987, he perpetrated his first sexual

38:25 assault. That we know.

38:26 Of that we know of. This is the thing.

38:28 Like he, we know that rape is so underreported, it's quite

38:33 possible they were far more than we we're aware.

38:36 Of I would also argue the fact that these girlfriends that he

38:39 had prior to this I mean what he did to them would constitute

38:44 rape as well in. Within like, what do you call

38:47 that into a date rape kind of label on it?

38:49 Whereas I, I'm, I would say back in the 80s, those women would

38:53 have believed, well, it's not rape because I'm dating him.

38:56 Yeah, I think that would have been the mindset.

38:58 Yeah. So whereas I mean, we know today

39:00 that a married man can, you know, it can be a marriage

39:03 situation, can be it's rape, but still rape if you say no,

39:06 absolutely it's. Not OK.

39:08 No one's ever entitled to have sex with you.

39:10 No, you need to consent to that. Absolutely.

39:13 Whereas I, I think in the 80s, that would not have been the

39:15 mindset of the women in these situations.

39:17 I think unfortunately for them. Right, Yeah.

39:19 But I think reflecting back now, they'd be like, shit.

39:22 Well, yeah, that's what that was.

39:24 That wasn't consensual, but yeah.

39:26 So between 1987 and approximately 1991 April ish, he

39:34 there were 14 women who reported that they had been raped in and

39:38 that they that were attributed to what they then called the

39:42 Scarborough Rapist. So which we will later on find

39:47 out like within all this that was was Paul Bernardo.

39:50 Yeah. So I think the thing that sort

39:52 of linked a lot of these rapes was not only the types of rape

39:56 that he perpetrated, it was often sodomy.

39:59 He never showed his face to his victims.

40:01 But he didn't wear a a balaclava or anything like that.

40:04 He wouldn't, didn't cover his face in that sense.

40:07 No, but he would take them from behind, essentially, yes, And he

40:11 would hide in bushes and yeah and grab them off the streets.

40:14 He'd hide behind bus shelters, that kind of.

40:16 Thing he wasn't breaking entering into people's homes and

40:19 doing these. It was out.

40:20 He would like basically accosted them in their backyard or in a a

40:24 park or something like that. Was there were outdoor

40:27 environments where he could, yeah, find them and get them,

40:31 Yeah. And another thing that linked

40:33 linked all of those crimes together was the reporting of

40:36 the women who'd who'd been the victims.

40:38 Yeah. They said things like he used a

40:40 knife. He was brutal.

40:41 Yeah. He wanted to video some of them.

40:43 Mm. Hmm.

40:44 Power and control during. During the assaults.

40:47 He demands that they repeated demeaning phrases like I'm a

40:50 slut, I'm a whore. The suffering of the victim.

40:55 The more the victim was outwardly expressing their

40:57 suffering for the rape, the more aroused he became and the more

41:03 violent the attack would then be or the the rape would then be.

41:07 And the rapes would last anywhere between 30 minutes and

41:11 an hour. I which that one was like 2

41:14 hours. Oh, just like when I heard that

41:17 at first, that really got me like I think to think, I mean, I

41:22 not a thank God being in that situation, but all I can imagine

41:25 is being in that scenario going, it'll be over soon.

41:28 It'll be over soon, right. And for those poor women that a

41:34 minute would feel like a lifetime. 45 minutes, an hour,

41:39 just all my heart broke like. Can you even like when you're, I

41:43 don't know, doing something that you don't want to do and you're

41:47 thinking, Yep, it'll all be over soon?

41:49 Yeah. That, as you said, a minute

41:52 feels like an. Hour how those women have then

41:55 soldiered on after that. I just my heart breaks.

42:00 I just how do you move past an absolute assault like that?

42:05 That's awful. Horrific.

42:08 On the 17th October in 1987, Paul and Carla met.

42:12 Carla was 17 years old at the time, 2.

42:15 Paul's 23. Yeah.

42:17 So six years different there. She was at a conference for her,

42:21 she was at working at a pet store at the time.

42:22 She was pretty going into like vet nursery and she was visiting

42:27 this conference and so staying at a hotel.

42:29 So at 17 like that's pretty. Apparently it was the first time

42:33 she'd been out of town without her family, right?

42:36 And the friend who she went with was a little bit older than her,

42:39 so kind of took her under her wing a little bit, right?

42:42 But they had separate rooms at the hotel.

42:44 They were staying in the same room together, but apparently

42:49 they decided they'd been at the conference all day.

42:51 Colour had actually gone back to her room and changed into like

42:55 track pants or like pajama pants, Right.

42:58 And then they went to the restaurant at the hotel, which

43:00 was like AI can't even remember what it was called, but it's

43:03 like a like a fast food type of restaurant that was just

43:07 attached to had a bar and had a bar.

43:09 Yeah. And anyway, they've gone down

43:12 there for dinner, and Paul had actually just recently broken up

43:15 with a girlfriend and his friend said to him, come on, let's go

43:18 out for drinks and dinner. Yeah.

43:20 And they ended up at the same hotel, restaurant and bar.

43:23 Yeah, apparently when Paul and Carla met, it was immediate,

43:28 like the attraction was. It was lost at first sight.

43:32 Yeah, from According to Colours friends.

43:34 From both sides, Yes. Yes.

43:36 Absolutely. There was an immediate

43:38 chemistry. They were both seemingly

43:40 infatuated with one another right from the get get go.

43:43 So much so that approximately 1 hour after meeting they were

43:47 having sex in Colours hotel room.

43:49 Yeah. Yeah.

43:52 Straight from that point they I guess their relationship just

43:57 continued. From there, yeah, they just

43:58 what, literally fell straight into a dating scenario and we're

44:01 going out, Yeah. Yeah.

44:03 One of the things that Paul didn't like about the whole

44:05 situation, though, was that he found out early on in their

44:08 relationship that Carla wasn't a virgin.

44:10 Yes, that. And he really was not OK with

44:12 like that. He made that a deal, a big deal.

44:15 Like, yeah. And she felt bad about.

44:18 Yeah, I mean that. She couldn't give him that, and

44:21 there was no turning back time to that.

44:22 Like, that's it, yeah. But that was a yeah.

44:25 It was a something that was brought up a lot, yeah.

44:28 Carla has later reported that early on in their relationship,

44:34 Paul's sexual fantasies were made very well known to her.

44:38 Yeah, it started out where basically he wanted her to be

44:43 his sex slave and do anything he wanted without question.

44:47 She sort of complied with that right from the get go.

44:49 Yeah, He in particular liked it when they played out a scenario

44:53 of her being like a subservient French maid in the bedroom.

44:58 So I mean, look, at this point, she states that it was all

45:02 consensual and she was happy to go along with it.

45:04 Yeah. But it was really the start of

45:06 something that became a lot more, I don't know, extreme.

45:12 Yeah, way to say it. Yeah, yeah, I reckon, yeah.

45:15 Carla introduced him. I mean, she's 17 years old,

45:18 she's introduced him to her parents.

45:20 And I think at the start, the fact that there was a six year

45:22 age difference, especially from a 17 year old to a 23 year old,

45:26 they weren't immediately enamoured by him, but I think

45:30 they saw pretty quickly, pretty quickly, pretty quickly.

45:32 And he became like, you know, just, yeah, someone they really

45:35 liked and wanted Carla to be with.

45:38 And yeah, because as we say on Outwardly Ken and Barbie, they

45:42 were like the perfect couple. Yeah, they look beautiful to get

45:45 together like. And Paul charmed her.

45:47 Parents. Oh yeah, yeah, big time.

45:49 Big time, yeah. Around the time of their

45:51 meeting, too. So this was probably about six

45:54 months after the Scarborough rapes had commenced.

45:57 There was a slight lull for a few months in the Scarborough

46:00 rapes. We now know, obviously, given

46:01 the timeline of all of that, yes, around this time as well,

46:07 Carla's friend. So this isn't the friend who was

46:09 with her at the hotel. This was a school friend, was

46:11 over at her house. And she found a list on Carla's

46:15 desk and she just had a bit of a read of it while Carla wasn't in

46:18 the room. Yeah.

46:19 And it said healthy eating, personal hygiene.

46:22 Never let anyone know our relationship is anything but

46:25 perfect. Don't talk back to Paul.

46:28 Be a perfect girlfriend to Paul. If Paul asks for a drink, bring

46:32 him 1 immediately. Remember, you're stupid.

46:35 Remember you're ugly. Remember you're fat.

46:38 I don't know why I tell you these things because you never

46:40 change. Oh so.

46:44 Who wrote that? Carly wrote that to herself.

46:46 To herself. Jeez, Yeah.

46:51 It's awful. It's horrible.

46:52 She's 17 years old. Yeah.

46:55 And he's already, this is in the infancy of their relationship.

46:58 Yeah, she's already feeling like this, like he's making her feel

47:03 like she's stupid, fat, ugly and needs to bring him.

47:06 Like she's already nervous about not bringing him a drink

47:08 immediately when he asks for one or demands 10.

47:12 Yuck. It's so fucking yuck.

47:15 Yeah, so yuck. Yeah, but come December 24th,

47:22 1989 and Paul does propose marriage and Carla absolutely is

47:31 so ecstatic, like this is what she wants.

47:34 It's they're very happy. There's been moments obviously

47:38 in this relationship where it's been bumpy and things are stuff

47:41 already. There's been a number of

47:44 occasions where Paul has sort of threatened to leave and things

47:46 like that. Carla is very keen to keep this

47:49 relationship on track and to keep him even though it from

47:53 that, that list you can tell, I mean, there's quite a bit of

47:56 control and quite, quite a bit of abuse within this

47:59 relationship well and truly. Prior to them getting engaged as

48:02 well, yeah, Paul actually had several relationships with other

48:08 women. Yes.

48:09 And so he was having affairs all the time.

48:11 Yeah. Paul started commenting very

48:15 early on in their relationship to about Tammy, Carla's sister.

48:20 Yeah. And specifically that she's a

48:22 virgin. Yeah.

48:23 He actually demanded of Carla that Tammy remained a virgin.

48:29 So number one, it's actually none of colour's business, none

48:34 of Paul's business quite clearly, but also none of

48:36 Colour's business what Tammy chooses to do or not do with her

48:41 body and with her virginity. But you know, he says to colour.

48:45 Note you need to make sure she remains a virgin.

48:47 Oh, God, yeah. So yeah, bringing that up with

48:50 her already of like flagging that that she's got like Tammy's

48:53 got something that you couldn't give me.

48:56 That's it. By late 1988, so this is about a

48:59 year before they get engaged, a police hotline is set up because

49:05 the Scarborough rapes actually start to increase again and

49:08 they're actually becoming more and more prolific.

49:10 We should say, too, I guess it is unknown if Carla knew he was

49:15 going out and raping women. Like, we don't still know

49:19 whether she knew that at this point.

49:20 Yeah. I I suspect this is my gut

49:23 feeling, and I don't, I only know this from what we've been

49:27 researching this week. So yeah, you know, this is just

49:29 a gut feeling for me. Yeah.

49:30 I feel like at this point, she didn't know.

49:32 Yeah. But I feel like once, I feel

49:35 like by the time they were engaged, I think she knew.

49:38 Yeah. I think if she didn't know it

49:41 was the Scarborough Rapist necessarily, yes, But I think

49:44 she would have had an understanding of his needs and

49:48 that he was going out of like, their relationship to fulfill

49:51 that. And that that probably equated

49:53 to doing that sort of thing. So yeah, I, I think that that's

49:57 really where she her head was at of her knowledge.

50:00 Yeah. So in 1988, the November of

50:03 1988, a task force was set up to catch this rapist.

50:06 Yeah. And at around this time, the

50:08 11th victim actually sees his face, and she's interviewed by

50:12 police. Thank God she came forward very

50:14 quickly. She was interviewed by police

50:16 and they got a sketch artist to do a composite sketch of him.

50:20 And oh, my God, it looks so much like him.

50:23 Like, bloody hats off to her because she didn't seem for

50:26 long. No, it's not like she was facing

50:28 him the whole time. No, she just caught a few

50:31 glimpses of him. Yeah.

50:33 And she was able to get, like, a really, really accurate

50:36 representation of him. Yes.

50:38 So impressive. It was it's.

50:41 That's beyond in the trauma of all that for her to have.

50:45 Oh, I'm so impressed by. This, as we see later on in this

50:47 same story, like, some people get the car wrong.

50:49 Yeah. You know, Yeah.

50:50 Let alone, like, trying to be able to, you know, put together

50:53 a face. And the detail of a face just

50:55 blows my mind. Same.

50:56 Yeah, the police disseminate the image everywhere.

51:00 It's in newspapers, it's on TV, it's everywhere you can possibly

51:03 think. And yeah, 16,000 tips came in

51:06 over the next few weeks after this image has gone out.

51:09 Mm. Hmm.

51:10 Friends. A couple of friends and a number

51:13 of previous girlfriends of Paul suspect that it may be him.

51:16 And so I think two people or three people maybe reported it

51:20 to the police hotline. And eventually the police got

51:24 around to just going to Paul to say, hey, your name's kind of

51:28 come up. And he's like, oh, I think I

51:30 look like that photo. He was so that interesting in

51:33 the police interviews of this, like it's he's so casual around

51:37 and like, you know, they sort of say, what do you think you've

51:39 been brought in today? He's like, because I clearly

51:41 look like the pitch. Yeah.

51:43 Like, yeah, yeah. Isn't it funny?

51:45 Yep. Yeah.

51:46 Get it? They don't have any suspicions

51:49 of him whatsoever. No, but they, I mean they do

51:51 take a DNA sample. Because he offers one, he's

51:53 like, oh, go right ahead, take a DNA sample.

51:55 It's fine. Yeah, yeah.

51:56 Like, you know. And then because he thought, and

51:59 quite rightly, he was right to think this.

52:01 Yeah, by being so casual about it and offering up his DNA.

52:04 But also DNA, it was so new IT. Was new, but if they really

52:09 thought it, they would have prioritized it absolutely.

52:11 But they didn't. They didn't think they'd need

52:13 to. But it was so new.

52:14 I think he also. Manipulated this situation, yes.

52:17 But in his arrogance of it too, like it's like, well, you know,

52:20 DNA, you know, like he, I don't think he probably had a full

52:22 understanding the DNA would actually link him either.

52:24 Like with it being such a new technology, I don't know that he

52:28 actually really understood that it would get him.

52:30 Yeah, like so 24 months after or 26 months, I think it was

52:34 actually after that DNA sample was taken that they even got to

52:38 testing it. Yeah.

52:40 So and we'll get, we'll get to the results of that in a minute.

52:43 Yeah. Wow.

52:45 OK. So as you said, December 24th,

52:48 19/19/89 they get engaged. Not long after that, though, so

52:54 he loses his job at Price Waterhouse.

52:56 Yes, yes, yeah. And So what does he do?

52:58 Like to start making money smuggling drug tobacco in

53:02 France? Like illegal cigarettes.

53:04 But like, I don't really, I didn't really understand how you

53:06 would make money doing that. Like, so are we talking from

53:08 Mexico or are we talking from America?

53:10 No, no, like, Oh yeah, because he's Canada.

53:12 So I'm thinking, yeah, I'm not sure.

53:14 I didn't actually. I just assumed Mexico.

53:16 It it must have been because there's no way.

53:18 I don't, I don't know. It was tobacco.

53:19 He was definitely smuggling tobacco, but you know mainly why

53:22 what what he wanted to make the money for.

53:24 Though, oh what? He wanted to be a rapper.

53:27 Oh yes. Oh my God.

53:29 Oh. That cracked me up.

53:30 I was like, oh mate, his favorite person on the planet

53:34 was Vanilla Ice. Oh, ice, ice, baby.

53:41 I mean, I love me a bit of Vanilla Ice, don't get me wrong,

53:44 but for fuck's sake, who did he think he was?

53:47 Oh God, yeah. I mean, oh yuck.

53:50 Yuck. And he probably thought he was

53:53 so. Oh God, he.

53:54 Would have thought he was like, hotter than vanilla rye.

53:57 Yeah. You know, like, Oh yeah, I could

53:58 do that, no worries. Yeah.

54:00 Oh, Jesus. Yeah.

54:01 Oh God, I. Think it's probably worth just

54:05 now introducing Tammy's work friend.

54:08 Oh, yeah. OK, sorry.

54:08 Not Tammy, Carla's work friend. So Carla met this girl in summer

54:14 of 1989 when she was working at one of the vet clinics.

54:17 Yeah. And we only know this girl to be

54:20 Jane Doe. Yeah.

54:21 We don't actually know her name to this day.

54:24 They met at the vet clinic and Paul seemed to really like this

54:28 girl. She was a bit younger than Carla

54:30 and virgin and a Virgin took and Paul took quite the liking to

54:34 her. Mm hmm.

54:35 They invited her over for a dinner and spaghetti Bolognese

54:40 was it. Something like that.

54:41 Yeah, and they crushed up some Valium.

54:43 From her work. That she stole it.

54:45 From work, yeah. And popped it in the spaghetti

54:48 but didn't quite get the dosing right so.

54:50 Well, because she's used to putting giving it to dogs and

54:53 cats like, but sure. But she.

54:55 No, the calculation of like in terms of kilograms and dosages.

54:59 But I mean, I guess she's not a vet.

55:00 She's not a doctor. Yeah, she's not.

55:02 She's the nurse. And probably with that side of

55:04 things, she's administering whatever she gets told to

55:07 administer. True.

55:07 I don't know to what level. Whether she had to calculate?

55:11 Anything. Yeah, I'm not sure.

55:12 Yeah. So maybe that's where that went

55:14 a bit awry for them. Yeah, Well, so.

55:16 She passed out for about a minute.

55:19 They commenced. Well, when I say they, I think

55:22 in this instance because it was on video.

55:24 Yeah. So we know that only Paul had

55:27 started to well, what was going to be a rape, but it actually

55:33 didn't end up going anywhere because she woke up, but she had

55:36 no memory of anything that had happened.

55:37 So they just went no. Oh, maybe you had a little too

55:40 much to. Yeah, they just sort of turned

55:42 it into a like, oh, we thought, you know, like getting off you,

55:44 but like, you know, 'cause I thought there was something

55:46 wrong with you. And yeah, that's alright.

55:47 It's all good. Like, and this girl didn't

55:49 really think anything more of it because it all kind of made

55:53 sense to her. What?

55:54 What they told. Yeah, Yeah, OK.

55:58 Oh. Gosh, yeah.

55:59 Paul moved in with the Humulkas after losing his job at

56:03 Pricewaterhouse because he fucking couldn't afford to live

56:06 anywhere else, and they accepted him quite readily.

56:08 I think previous to this he'd stayed on weekends and stuff, so

56:11 I guess they thought they knew what they were getting by

56:14 letting him move in there more permanently.

56:17 Well, didn't they just? He did become more controlling

56:20 of Carla once he moved in, or I guess he had more access to her.

56:24 So the controlling behaviour was just all the time as opposed to

56:27 when he saw her. Yeah, he would choose her

56:30 clothes for her, which I just find that so fucking disgusting

56:34 when men choose clothes for women.

56:37 I'm like, what's that about? That is, No, I don't like it.

56:41 I don't like it at all. No, I mean, not only that.

56:43 If Peter chose clothes for me, I mean, he's got tastes.

56:45 Sorry. I wouldn't even go there.

56:51 No, don't. Yeah, but I mean, Carla went

56:56 with it and. I think she liked it.

56:59 That's yeah. Yeah, he would also tell her

57:01 exactly what to eat. And I'm talking exactly.

57:05 Oh, really? He would say to her.

57:07 You're having a ham and lettuce sandwich for lunch.

57:11 You're having this, you're having that.

57:14 Oh God. She couldn't even choose what

57:16 she ate. That's.

57:17 Awful. Does this play into that?

57:21 I wonder if this played into that bedroom like dominion, like

57:27 BDSM type of thing which I I think they partook in.

57:31 Yeah, yeah, maybe. That comes outside of the

57:34 bedroom where you're then telling somebody what to eat and

57:37 drink and where where to. Shit, obviously.

57:41 He also would tell her what to think.

57:42 Yeah, probably where to shit on his chest and would also tell

57:48 her what to think. So she had an opinion about

57:50 something that he didn't like. Well, then he just sorted that

57:53 out quick. Smart, didn't he?

57:55 Yeah, he'd keep her in check by calling her fat.

57:58 Yeah, ugly. And she just complied with all

58:04 of his sexually deviant behavior.

58:06 Yeah, and she but again, it's still to this point even she was

58:09 still reminded, very much so, that she had not given him her

58:13 virginity. But that I think that's why she

58:16 did all of this other. Stuff she was trying to make up

58:18 for that. And make up for it exactly.

58:20 Then to make up for it. So yeah, this is when she

58:25 decides to offer up her own younger sister's virginity.

58:30 Because that's hers to give. Like for fuck's.

58:32 Sake. It was hers to make sure she

58:34 kept. Yes, According to him, yes.

58:36 And so now she decided. She decided that she would offer

58:40 it up to. Him so she actually gifted him

58:44 like it was hers to give as a. Christmas present?

58:47 What the fuck? What the actual fuck?

58:51 Yeah. So let's let's get into what

58:55 happened that night. So poor Tammy Hamolka.

58:57 Yeah. So she was 15 at this at this

59:02 point. Yeah.

59:03 So Tammy, they were at Carla's parents house.

59:07 It was just before Christmas, having a Christmas party at the,

59:10 at the Homolka household on the on December 23rd, 1990.

59:14 And as everyone else sort of started to head off for the

59:18 night, like sort of finish up the party, Carla and Tammy and

59:22 Paul were left for the evening. And I mean, as any 15 year old,

59:26 you know, with an older sister and her boyfriend, you think

59:28 you're pretty cool hanging out with them.

59:30 And you're gonna, you know, if they tell me to do something,

59:32 I'm gonna do that. You know, like.

59:33 And they were offering her alcohols.

59:35 So they were having eggnog sparked with rum.

59:37 Yeah, they were having other cocktail tells and and yeah.

59:42 I mean. Probably going with it too if I

59:43 was 15. Oh, and you can imagine Tammy, I

59:45 mean, as we said, Paul was a very attractive man.

59:48 Like you can imagine this 15 year old being a little bit like

59:51 starry eyed with, you know, you, your sisters, your big sister's

59:54 boyfriend showing a little bit of an interest in you.

59:56 You sort of would feel a bit special and, you know, like that

1:00:00 would be really lovely that he was spending so much.

1:00:03 Attention to her. But when it.

1:00:05 But the reasons for that were just gross.

1:00:07 So Tammy, I'm sorry. Carla had also taken from her

1:00:11 workplace some drugs, some tranquilizers, and they were

1:00:18 spiking her drinks with that. Yep.

1:00:20 So again, it was Valium, Yeah, that they were spiking her

1:00:23 eggnog with. But on top of that, so just just

1:00:27 to sort of set the scene just really quickly.

1:00:29 Yeah, Apparently the house was on a main level.

1:00:31 That was where all the living spaces were.

1:00:33 Then there was a basement that's.

1:00:35 Sort of like American. Canadian doesn't have basements.

1:00:37 Yeah. We don't have basements in

1:00:38 Australia, no. But in the basement they had

1:00:40 like ATV room type setup and a bedroom.

1:00:43 Yeah, down there. But most of the family actually

1:00:47 slept on the 1st floor. So there were sort of two floors

1:00:50 between where Tammy, Carla and Paul were hanging out and where

1:00:55 the rest of the family were upstairs asleep in bed.

1:00:58 Yep, Yep. So you can imagine that noise

1:01:00 would not be traveling whatever was going on down there.

1:01:02 Yep, Yep. So Carla had taken the Valium

1:01:07 from work and apparently she used to do this by ordering it

1:01:10 under a vet's name and then so no one would know that she was

1:01:13 particularly being the one that ordered it come in, she'd pocket

1:01:16 it, take it home. She also took Hallithane, which

1:01:19 is an anaesthetic drug. It's meant to be like a vapor.

1:01:23 Yeah, about to use like a vaporizer, aren't you?

1:01:25 To like administer it, which I'm sure that's what they would do

1:01:27 in the vet clinic with the animals.

1:01:29 They would put it in the, you know, breath breathing

1:01:31 apparatus. Yeah, but she didn't do it that.

1:01:33 Way No. She soaked a cloth in the

1:01:36 halophane and held it over Tammy's mouth and nose.

1:01:40 And it did. It knocked her out.

1:01:41 I mean, on top of that, they'd also given her so much Valium

1:01:45 and then also a lot of alcohol. Yeah.

1:01:48 So just think of this absolute cocktail of stuff going on.

1:01:52 Yes. They lured her down to the

1:01:54 basement saying yeah, let's watch a Christmas movie together

1:01:58 in the video. Now I've only read transcripts

1:02:02 of the video. I believe you can actually find

1:02:06 audio of these videos. Yeah, only audio.

1:02:09 If you want to. I chose not to.

1:02:11 I chose not to go. Anywhere near it, there's been

1:02:13 and. It was court.

1:02:14 Hearings to destroy it all because it is awful.

1:02:21 This wasn't the first time that Paul had videotaped an attack,

1:02:25 but it is the first time that the attack escalated to what

1:02:30 ended up being murder. So what they did was they've

1:02:35 knocked Tammy out on the video, Paul says.

1:02:41 Here we go. Keep her down.

1:02:46 Sorry. Color at this point is holding

1:02:48 Tammy down. I'm guessing just in case.

1:02:51 In case she wakes. Up because that's what happened

1:02:53 the one time brief prior with Jane Doe.

1:02:55 Yes, yeah. But she oh God, with how much

1:02:58 drugs they put on it on the system.

1:02:59 Paul commits a sexual assault on Tammy.

1:03:03 Again, this is all caught on video.

1:03:04 This is there's no conjecture around this.

1:03:07 And then he tells Carla to do the same.

1:03:10 Yeah. And she does.

1:03:12 She sexually assaults her own sister.

1:03:15 Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, because.

1:03:21 They'd given Tammy so such a cocktail of drugs and also her

1:03:26 being so young and everything, Tammy actually ended up

1:03:30 overdosing on everything she'd been given and she vomited and

1:03:35 then inhaled her own vomit. So she aspirated and they could

1:03:40 obviously Paul and Carla could tell that she was not breathing.

1:03:44 They tried to revive they. Did try to revive her if that's

1:03:47 something in that, I don't know, but but then and they did call

1:03:50 an ambulance eventually, eventually so.

1:03:53 What they did first was so they've obviously realized we

1:03:55 can't get her back here, so they clean her all up, they change

1:04:00 her clothes, they change the blanket that was underneath her,

1:04:05 and Carla goes and tries and puts that in the washing

1:04:08 machine. By this stage, they haven't even

1:04:10 woken up. Carla's parents, yet no one's

1:04:12 woken up. They dial 911, they or it's 91.

1:04:17 If that's Canadian. I was just about to say no

1:04:19 because everything I've read they say they dialed 91.

1:04:21 One might be, maybe it is. I wouldn't.

1:04:22 Be shocked. I actually don't know.

1:04:23 But anyway, it would make sense, wouldn't it?

1:04:25 Yeah, they the ambulance comes and they actually end up taking

1:04:31 Tammy to the local hospital and Tammy later on is unfortunately

1:04:36 pronounced deceased and very there.

1:04:39 Quickly, it's deemed an accidental death in that they

1:04:45 assume she's, yeah, had a couple of drinks And like Tammy, I'm

1:04:48 sorry, Carla and Paul, like, admit to the fact.

1:04:51 Oh, we did give her a couple of drinks, you know, like, you

1:04:52 know, they, they do admit to some of this stuff in terms of

1:04:55 what they, we gave her a couple of drinks and, you know, and

1:04:57 she's vomited and choked on her own.

1:05:00 And like. Just kind of that's the only

1:05:02 part of the story that's kind of attached to it.

1:05:04 Carla and Tammy's mum and dad kind of chalk it up to, Oh my

1:05:09 God, this is an absolutely tragic accident of a girl who

1:05:12 was just experimenting with some alcohol.

1:05:14 Yeah, the police do question Paul and Carla about.

1:05:18 So when they held the hallophane soaked rag over Tammy's mouth

1:05:25 and nose, it actually burnt a mark.

1:05:28 And you can see photos of the mark if you look it up online.

1:05:32 It burnt a mark into her face and the police were like well

1:05:34 what's this from? And they said, oh, we had to

1:05:37 drag her along the carpet face down.

1:05:39 I don't think so, but anyway, into the bedroom where there was

1:05:42 better light so we could perform CPR.

1:05:44 Fuck off. And it doesn't.

1:05:46 And the police would like a carpet burn, OK?

1:05:48 But they, but they just immediately go, oh, yeah, it's a

1:05:50 carpet burn. Like you'd think that at some

1:05:52 point in an autopsy situation that someone would have gone,

1:05:55 well, that's not a carpet burn. It does not look like a carpet

1:05:59 burn. It looks like a chemical.

1:06:00 Burn. It's like a chemical burn

1:06:01 because it is a chemical. Burn, I'm not, I don't know that

1:06:03 stuff, but I look at that and go there's I'm sorry, there's no

1:06:05 but. You know what a carpet burn

1:06:06 looks like as well? We've all had a carpet burn.

1:06:08 Yeah, gotcha. Yeah, it's not a carpet burn.

1:06:11 Nope. So I mean, I think the cops have

1:06:14 dropped the ball there massively, which is pretty shit,

1:06:18 but that's what it got ruled was an accidental death.

1:06:22 The police did, you know, search the house and have a look around

1:06:27 and all of that sort of stuff. And when they were looking in

1:06:29 Carla's bedroom, and you can see this on the police videotape of

1:06:33 the night. So they've just done a videotape

1:06:35 around, I guess, just in case this did go any further, they've

1:06:37 done all the right things, and we're starting to collect all of

1:06:39 the evidence. Yeah.

1:06:40 And apparently in that video, you can see a videotape on

1:06:43 Carla's desk in her bedroom. So they'd had the wherewithal to

1:06:47 prior to calling 911 as well to take the videotape out of the

1:06:51 video camera. But they only just put it in

1:06:54 colours bedroom. But the police never looked at

1:06:56 it or anything. I guess they would have thought

1:06:58 it was like a, you know, someone's recorded.

1:07:00 I don't know what shows running. The, I wonder if it would be

1:07:03 different today in terms of, I guess technology and the way

1:07:06 they would file information around cases that it would flag

1:07:11 that, oh, Paul Bernardo's come in as to be questions around the

1:07:14 Scarborough rapist because he looks like the, the image.

1:07:19 I wonder whether that would trigger something today.

1:07:21 Like when he's brought in to talk, we talked to about a 15

1:07:24 year old girl who yes, no, rape was not on their list of, you

1:07:29 know what I mean? Like that What they didn't

1:07:30 actually in all of this, somehow, somehow in an autopsy,

1:07:33 they did not flag that she had been raped.

1:07:35 They didn't do a rape kit on her, no.

1:07:37 Like they wouldn't have done, I wouldn't have thought to have

1:07:38 done a rape kick when they think it's a little a girl who's had a

1:07:41 few too many drinks vomited. But you would think that I.

1:07:46 Don't know. So I have kind of questioned

1:07:47 things. I did look at this.

1:07:49 Yeah, in terms of why, why didn't he get flagged at this

1:07:51 point? Because as you said, he he'd

1:07:54 been questioned by police, but unfortunately it was a different

1:07:57 jurisdiction and they didn't share information back then.

1:07:59 That's why I wonder whether he's if today those things would have

1:08:02 been shared. Across, I think sure, it would

1:08:04 have been, yeah. And you know, with social media,

1:08:07 with even just the way media reports things these days, I

1:08:10 don't think there would have been any way that he would have

1:08:12 gotten away with this at this point.

1:08:14 But apparently the police, police officers at Carla's house

1:08:18 did search on their whatever they could search on their

1:08:22 system. They looked up Carla, they

1:08:23 looked up Paul. No red flags.

1:08:26 Had they just gone to the next jurisdiction over in Toronto?

1:08:29 Yeah, they would have actually. Seen that Paul had had obviously

1:08:32 been calling question, Yeah, yeah, OK.

1:08:34 Whether that would have changed anything?

1:08:37 Don't know, don't know. It's hard to know.

1:08:39 Yeah, Yeah. But so not long after this

1:08:42 incident with Tammy, which I mean, what was really shocking,

1:08:46 I think, and the family even sort of flagged this in terms of

1:08:49 the family were absolutely distraught about Tammy's death.

1:08:51 It really knocked them. But it was really the family

1:08:55 started noticing very quickly, like Tammy and Paul are just

1:08:58 moving on. They're just planning their

1:08:59 wedding. Like they weren't grieving her

1:09:02 like Tammy would. Carla would get shitty with her

1:09:05 family for not wanting to plan this wedding and be happy for

1:09:09 them because they were grieving for their daughter, you know, or

1:09:12 sister. Yeah, which is awful.

1:09:14 Like they they had no where for where with all that that

1:09:17 empathy, I guess where you know that Carla lacks and I think.

1:09:20 That started straight away after she died.

1:09:22 It wasn't like they they didn't even seem to have a period of

1:09:24 mourning. No, no.

1:09:26 Some really creepy shit happened at Tammy's funeral.

1:09:28 Though all right. So Paul and Carla, obviously

1:09:32 they're there, the front row, they had an open casket for

1:09:36 Tammy and Paul was seen stroking Tammy's hair in the casket.

1:09:41 Oh, he also put a photo of himself and Carla in the casket.

1:09:46 No, And a letter. So it was their wedding

1:09:50 invitation, but apparently there was a letter in it as well.

1:09:53 And the only reason we know all of this, I mean, the the

1:09:56 stroking of the hair was cited by multiple people.

1:09:59 But in terms of what he put in the casket was unknown to Carla

1:10:04 and Tammy's parents. But later on, again, we will

1:10:08 come to this, but later on, they ended up having to exhume

1:10:11 Tammy's body. And that's when they found that

1:10:15 Paul had put these things into her casket.

1:10:17 So he buried her with a photo of himself.

1:10:21 Oh, that is. What?

1:10:22 Disgusting. Fucking piece of shit.

1:10:25 Oh like let's continue the abuse into her death.

1:10:28 Yep, oh evil piece of shit. God.

1:10:35 Oh, OK all. Right.

1:10:36 Well, so we don't know an exact date of this next incident, but

1:10:40 unfortunately who the person we met earlier who's known as Jane

1:10:44 Doe. Since that was unsuccessful the

1:10:47 last time, Carla takes it upon herself again to invite her out

1:10:52 to go shopping and do all these things girly time and then have

1:10:56 her over again for dinner. And once again, this time they

1:11:01 are successful in their assault of her.

1:11:05 They do drug her, et cetera, but this time, but they don't kill

1:11:10 her. She survives that.

1:11:12 I don't think she was aware of anything that went on.

1:11:15 She she was staying the night. Like that was always the plan.

1:11:18 So from the assault overnight, which involved all sorts of it

1:11:22 went on for hours that they assaulted her again, videotaped

1:11:25 it. They then she obviously then

1:11:28 woke up the next morning having no knowledge whatsoever of what

1:11:32 has occurred to her overnight and went home and so poor Jane

1:11:36 Doe, but but fortunately survived the assault.

1:11:41 Awful. Yeah, this is just now obviously

1:11:47 really incited further desires in Paul.

1:11:53 Yeah, and color. Just wanted to please.

1:11:55 Him. So the videotapes of Jane Doe's

1:11:58 assault, again, it's very clear that that color is partaking in

1:12:03 this, not being coerced. She perpetrates the rapes as

1:12:07 well. Yeah, yeah.

1:12:10 It's just horrible. Absolutely.

1:12:12 So we then come to another victim.

1:12:17 OK. So Leslie Mahaffy?

1:12:19 Yeah. From June 14th, 1991, they I

1:12:24 think, I think Leslie was coming home from a friend's place.

1:12:27 She was walking home from her being at a friend's.

1:12:31 I believe in Carla and and Paul were in the car and I think that

1:12:36 coaxed over offering her a cigarette or something.

1:12:39 So the way I understand this one.

1:12:41 Maybe that was the other one, so I'm maybe confused between the

1:12:43 two, but. No, but this one, I think so

1:12:47 Leslie had actually been at a friend's wake.

1:12:49 So she'd actually, Yep, she'd actually had a friend pass away,

1:12:53 I think from natural causes. Like there was no, nothing sort

1:12:56 of necessarily not sinister there, but a horrible situation.

1:13:00 But her mum had said to her you need to be home by curfew, which

1:13:02 was say 10:00. That's yes, yes.

1:13:04 She then gets home and her mum's locked her out of the house.

1:13:07 Yeah, she's 14. She's 14.

1:13:09 Her mum's locked her out of the house and be like, no, I told

1:13:11 you to be home. I mean, this is the 80s, early

1:13:14 90s. But yeah, the same, yeah.

1:13:16 Yeah, I don't know, you know, different.

1:13:18 Whatever. Yeah, that's what her mum's

1:13:19 decided to do. So Leslie was actually sitting

1:13:21 on the front stoop of her. She'd.

1:13:22 Run Her friend, a friend of hers to say, can I come to your place

1:13:26 because I can't get into the house?

1:13:27 And for whatever reason, the friend had said no, you can't

1:13:29 come. Here maybe their mum was like,

1:13:31 no, you can't have a friend coming over at 11:00 at night

1:13:33 because I think it was quite late.

1:13:34 Yeah, yeah, yeah. But yeah, so she was kind of

1:13:36 stuck like on what to do. So yeah, she was just hanging

1:13:40 around. So then Carla and Paul have

1:13:42 just. Paul Oh, sorry.

1:13:44 So he's, he's like coasting around the streets trying to

1:13:48 find. I think he's looking for someone

1:13:49 to find. So this one Carla didn't sort of

1:13:50 bring to him. No, because he got home and he

1:13:52 was like, hey Hon, look what I found.

1:13:56 Oh gross. Yep, but she would have been

1:13:57 happy about that. Yeah.

1:13:58 Oh well, she did all the things that she'd done previously with

1:14:04 her and sister and then with Jane Doe as well.

1:14:07 Exactly. In the videotape for this one,

1:14:10 which is quite, again, I've only read transcript, but it's so

1:14:16 fucked up, He says to her, So as in Paul says to Leslie, the next

1:14:22 two hours are going to determine what I do to you.

1:14:26 Right now, you're scoring perfect.

1:14:28 Because at the start she was very submissive to what?

1:14:31 Because I guess as a victim, how would you know how to act?

1:14:35 Oh, she just obviously at the start decided to go with it.

1:14:37 Mm hmm. They're then perpetrating

1:14:41 horrific, horrific acts on her. And it then led to they were

1:14:48 sodomizing her and this caused her a lot of pain.

1:14:51 And in the video, she's begging Bernardo to stop.

1:14:55 She's begging Paul to stop. He was actually sodomizing her

1:15:00 with his hands while Carla was tying them.

1:15:03 Tying her hands as in Leslie's hands up with twine so that she

1:15:08 couldn't push him away and stop him from doing whatever the fuck

1:15:11 it was that he wanted her to do. Unfortunately for Leslie, I

1:15:16 think as well, they had blindfolded her, but during the

1:15:20 perpetrating of the sodomy, her blindfold actually fell off and

1:15:25 she saw. Them and that they sort of, they

1:15:28 say that this is kind of what then meant that like with Jane

1:15:32 Doe, they didn't kill her, but she was knocked out for the

1:15:35 whole thing. Jane Doe where they never, they

1:15:37 never knocked her out with drugs or anything.

1:15:39 So there is a difference in this assault.

1:15:41 And I guess that's where like Paul had that fascination with,

1:15:44 he wanted reaction from the victim and he maybe didn't get

1:15:48 that through the Jane Doe assault, which is just awful.

1:15:53 So but that's where he's moved to, you know, I want this one

1:15:55 awake. But then, yeah, that with the

1:15:58 with the slip of the the mask, that means that she's seen them.

1:16:01 And so that sort of becomes the motive of why they've then moved

1:16:05 to murder her. Yeah.

1:16:06 So they gave her a lethal dose of Halcion.

1:16:09 They also they, which is another drug that Carla got from the vet

1:16:12 clinic. Carla says that Paul strangled

1:16:15 her, although there's no evidence to say that that's

1:16:18 actually what happened. So they think she actually died

1:16:20 to the body. Right, exactly.

1:16:22 I mean, you wouldn't maybe know if he did.

1:16:24 But yeah, I guess they can't prove.

1:16:26 Because it's certainly in the in the rapist situation, he

1:16:28 definitely strangled women, yes. So that was definitely an MO for

1:16:32 him anyway, yeah. But I guess they can't prove.

1:16:35 It because what they. Ended up doing with her body so

1:16:37 she she died and they cut up her body into was it 30 pieces?

1:16:44 Or something like that. Something like that.

1:16:45 A lot of pieces, a lot of and encased them in concrete, in

1:16:49 cement. I really wanna know how and

1:16:52 where they did this in like that.

1:16:54 There's there's no nowhere you can find that, but it does flaw

1:16:58 me. I don't know like.

1:17:00 Apparently each block weighed up to 90 kilos, which for our

1:17:05 American friends is 200 lbs each.

1:17:07 Block. And there was, I think there

1:17:09 were 30. I don't, I actually haven't

1:17:11 written down how many there were.

1:17:12 That's just. Or a quick thing to carry as

1:17:14 well. Then at 90 kilos to lift into a

1:17:16 car or 'cause they go and dump it in Gibson Lake.

1:17:19 There's pieces which just oh God, it just floors me what like

1:17:25 and did where did they they did they plan this out and have

1:17:28 concrete on hand and go. They didn't he went, they found

1:17:31 the receipts in there when they when this all came to the fore,

1:17:34 he kept so he kept a lot of trophies, Paul.

1:17:37 And one of the trophies they found in relation to this case

1:17:40 was he'd actually kept the receipts from buying the

1:17:42 concrete and he bought it the day she.

1:17:45 Died. Yeah, Right.

1:17:46 Yeah. So there was no forethought.

1:17:50 Forethought. And maybe they didn't know they

1:17:52 were going to kill her. I don't know.

1:17:54 I really don't know. Her body washed up ashore on the

1:17:59 day that Carla and Paul got married.

1:18:02 So they got married in. The 29th of June, 1991.

1:18:06 Yep, they got married on the beautiful Niagara on the lake

1:18:09 where it's stunning and this is what the contrast of these two

1:18:13 scenes. I just this is what I just it

1:18:16 really makes me feel a bit I'll they're at this lavish.

1:18:19 They had a very lavish wedding. There was they were, you know,

1:18:22 left their ceremony in a horse drawn carriage.

1:18:25 And if I can just set the scene of Niagara on the falls, It is

1:18:29 one of these most stunning quaint villages.

1:18:32 It is really gorgeous. I can just imagine tranquil, oh

1:18:36 so tranquil. The water you can hear all the

1:18:38 time, like in the background because it's a very fast flowing

1:18:41 river. You know, it's just the most, it

1:18:44 looks like you've gone back in time, like it is just gorgeous,

1:18:48 gorgeous, gorgeous, gorgeous, and then and then not far.

1:18:51 Away, 18 kilometres away. Is Gibson Lake where some

1:18:55 fishermen? It was a very well fished area.

1:18:57 There were people out who have found these.

1:19:01 Cement. Cement blocks washing up on

1:19:04 shore with bodies in it of a 14 year old girl.

1:19:10 And they are. These two scenes are linked.

1:19:14 Have you seen the photos of Paul and Carla's wedding That like

1:19:18 their wedding? Photos Oh, it's very late 80s,

1:19:21 early 90s. Isn't that the hair?

1:19:23 Big hair, big dress, the baby's breath, the big poofy shoulders.

1:19:27 It's literally what you'd think of exactly like.

1:19:29 But that's the thing. For the time it was a high

1:19:32 fashion, high fashion, stunning couple.

1:19:35 You know, it was eaten a bit wedding.

1:19:38 And you can just imagine that bloody horse drawn carriage

1:19:40 trotting off with the two. Oh fuck me.

1:19:43 Like, yeah, now we look back on it and go.

1:19:46 Two weeks later, sorry, two weeks before that, they'd been

1:19:49 murdering a very young girl. A little girl.

1:19:51 Yeah, and unfortunately, like her body, you know, washed up

1:19:54 and they weren't able to identify it, you know, very

1:19:56 quickly because it was so. They ended up finding an

1:20:01 orthodontic appliance in one of the cement blocks and that's

1:20:05 actually how they. Identified her, Yeah.

1:20:08 Awful. Just horrible, yeah.

1:20:11 All right, next victim. Well, this is it.

1:20:12 We go into next victim, which I mean, it's nearly a year later.

1:20:16 There was a gap in there with me.

1:20:18 I mean, this must have sort of, I don't know, quenched something

1:20:21 in them for a little while, but not entirely.

1:20:24 Yeah, so on April 16th in 1992, the murder of Christian French

1:20:32 takes place. So they were obviously out

1:20:36 looking for something because they were essentially cruising

1:20:39 the streets, as you were saying, before they were together.

1:20:43 Yeah, in their car. We'll get to the car in a

1:20:45 second. Yeah.

1:20:46 And they spotted, they decided it was Carla's decision to go

1:20:52 past this particular Catholic school, noting that there'd be

1:20:58 schoolgirls around, which is obviously what really got them

1:21:01 going. And they came across 15 year old

1:21:05 Kristen French, who was walking home from school.

1:21:09 They pretended like they were lost.

1:21:14 And apparently Carla got out of the car with a map and was like,

1:21:17 oh, we're lost, we're visiting my parents, they've just moved

1:21:20 here. Can you please help me find blah

1:21:22 blah blah. Being a lovely girl that Kristen

1:21:26 was, she's like, Oh yeah, of course I can help you.

1:21:29 And with that, they've shoved her into their car.

1:21:32 Apparently Carla sat behind her and held her hair so tight she

1:21:38 couldn't move. From the from behind God.

1:21:41 And that's how they restrained her the.

1:21:43 Number of people witnessed this, brought into the car and who

1:21:48 then then attempted to identify the car, the vehicle that people

1:21:52 that this young girl was being dragged into by two adults but

1:21:56 didn't go to help. Yeah, that flaws me well.

1:22:00 They didn't go to help nor did they actually report it to

1:22:02 police until they saw that there was a missing persons report the

1:22:07 following day. Yeah it's bloody weird.

1:22:10 Also like it was such AI guess, a frenzied kind of.

1:22:15 It sounds to me when they did describe it to police, it's like

1:22:19 this was not a, you know, oh, look, we've maybe misunderstood

1:22:21 what's going on there, like a bit of a you.

1:22:22 Know like parents and she's been naughty or something.

1:22:24 No, no, no. It was a full blown attack the

1:22:27 shoe. Was left behind.

1:22:28 Yeah. They found her shoe at the scene

1:22:30 the next day. Driven off without?

1:22:32 Yeah. Like, I don't know.

1:22:33 Come on. Yeah, if you see something.

1:22:36 Say something, but this poor girl, I mean, she she was

1:22:42 assaulted for a few days. It wasn't you know, I mean we

1:22:45 already spoke about how lengthy Paul would assault women for,

1:22:48 you know, in that there were hours.

1:22:51 This was this now moved to another level again escalating

1:22:55 that he they assaulted her for a few days.

1:22:57 They had her like kidnapped in their house and constantly were

1:23:02 torturing, sexually assaulting and videotaping all of this that

1:23:07 was going on and they were both involved in it Well, well and

1:23:11 truly just absolutely awful. That poor girl.

1:23:15 Just disgusting. Again, they videotaped a huge

1:23:19 portion of this, all of the goings on here.

1:23:22 Yeah, the only, the only thing with this is that thank God,

1:23:26 like to be honest, I they didn't cut her body up when they did

1:23:29 murder her. She was intact.

1:23:33 That so there's evidence that she was strangled to death.

1:23:35 That was the, the cause of death.

1:23:39 But she was just left in a ditch.

1:23:42 And I believe that she was there for almost a week.

1:23:44 I want to say it was like 6, you know, 5-6 days between when her

1:23:49 body was dumped and when her body was found.

1:23:52 So her body was. Before, just before dumping her,

1:23:54 though. Yeah, they murdered her.

1:23:55 And then the following night, they did this over the Easter

1:23:58 weekend, right? And they put her body in their

1:24:02 basement while Carla's family came over to their place for

1:24:04 Easter's Sunday dinner. Yeah, with a dead body.

1:24:08 In the basement, I think they would get off on that, but.

1:24:11 I think that was. I think they.

1:24:12 Would love that because it was like we did this and it would

1:24:16 bond them more. But yeah, I think around this

1:24:21 time, Carla and Paul. So when Kristen's body was

1:24:26 found, Carla and Paul were actually on, like, a delayed

1:24:29 honeymoon of sorts. They were actually in Hawaii

1:24:31 when her body was found. Yeah.

1:24:33 And so they would have been, I would imagine, revelling in

1:24:36 that. From overseas.

1:24:37 Yeah. From over in Hawaii.

1:24:39 Yeah. Grand old time.

1:24:41 Cheers. Yeah, yeah.

1:24:44 April 30th, 1992. Her body was found devastating.

1:24:48 So, so sad. In 1992, though, also a few

1:24:52 months later, their relationship really became another level of

1:24:56 volatile and it was the first attempt ever of, of Carlo trying

1:25:00 to leave the relationship. So June 19th, 1992, she did sort

1:25:07 of report some violence against her from from Paul and she did

1:25:13 try to leave him, but he threatened to expose her role in

1:25:17 her sister's death and that's what kept her in the

1:25:21 relationship. This is this is a similar time

1:25:26 as to probably later that year actually was when finally the

1:25:30 DNA that Paul had been had had taken it started to get

1:25:36 processed. So it was it was only infancy

1:25:39 stages though still, because it was DNA testing back in the

1:25:42 night at very early 90s, it's still, you know, very infancy

1:25:45 stage. So it.

1:25:46 Also took forever. Took forever.

1:25:48 So I'm talking December 1992, they've finally started

1:25:52 processing it. So it's still not there yet.

1:25:55 It went into the system it was taking.

1:25:57 There was a massive backlog of DNA testing to be done and that

1:26:00 he's just, as we said, it wasn't prioritized in any way, but it

1:26:03 was finally starting to get tested.

1:26:05 But then in January of 1993, not long after, a really vicious

1:26:11 attack from Paul on Carla occurred with a flashlight.

1:26:16 He had attacked her, leaving her with a couple of black eyes.

1:26:20 She. Actually, like one of her eyes

1:26:22 was partially dislocated. Yeah, it was a really hardcore

1:26:26 vicious attack. Yeah.

1:26:28 So she actually filed charges against him for this attack.

1:26:35 But she, and actually in that attempt of leaving, she actually

1:26:39 tried to find the videotapes to take them with her because I

1:26:43 think she was like, he's gonna hold that over me if I leave and

1:26:47 this is my I'm gonna, this is my one, I'm gonna go.

1:26:49 So she tried to take them, but she couldn't find them anywhere.

1:26:53 So I think that that was another pull back into the relationship.

1:26:57 If she wasn't able to take those tapes with her, then she knew he

1:27:00 could. But I mean, The thing is showing

1:27:01 those tapes, I mean, it's gonna show him up too, But I don't

1:27:03 know where her PED was at with that.

1:27:05 I mean, he's gonna show who he himself was as well, wasn't he,

1:27:08 By giving them to anybody? Yeah, But I, I, I just wonder

1:27:11 because, look, this is where I find this case really kind of

1:27:15 tough. And it pulls me in two different

1:27:17 directions. I have no doubt in my mind that

1:27:21 Carla was a perpetrator of these crimes, and she went along with

1:27:27 it all. I think had she not met Paul,

1:27:30 she wouldn't have necessarily become a rapist and a murderer.

1:27:36 And I think I. So I was, I listened to a a

1:27:41 psychologist talk about this specifically.

1:27:43 So Doctor Rachel Toles then, she said like she has not done

1:27:48 therapy with Carla, She's not assessed her, She can't can't

1:27:52 diagnose her. However, from the childhood

1:27:56 descriptions of who she was, you know, and those sorts of things

1:27:59 that you can like, which are genuinely who this person was

1:28:02 growing up and the terms being used around that.

1:28:04 She had no empathy, that she had bullying behaviour, these other

1:28:08 aspects of her personality. She was fairly convinced of the

1:28:12 fact that she would die, could have a diagnosis of narcissistic

1:28:16 personality disorder and antisocial personality disorder.

1:28:20 Doesn't matter. A murderer.

1:28:21 No, that's it. And so she actually believed

1:28:23 that without meeting Paul, she probably wouldn't murder.

1:28:28 She would make people's lives a living hell.

1:28:30 Oh, yeah, she would. Oh, my God.

1:28:31 She would ask awful things to people.

1:28:33 Yeah, but without pairing her with Paul, murder probably

1:28:37 wasn't on her radar. Whereas Paul, she believed he

1:28:43 had sadistic qualities to him, putting him into that psychopath

1:28:47 category and that he was already flagged by people within the

1:28:53 investigation that whoever it was that was perpetrating the

1:28:56 rapes was escalating. Yeah, so, so they had an FBI

1:29:00 profiler come in very early days of the Scarborough Rapist

1:29:04 because they they were like, this is out of control.

1:29:06 We don't know what to do. We don't know who we're looking

1:29:08 for. We don't know anything.

1:29:09 Yeah. And so at that time, the FBI

1:29:12 profiler was like, OK, this is a young, a white male.

1:29:15 Young white male in his 20s. He would be abusive towards any

1:29:19 partner he had. Yeah.

1:29:20 There were lots of different things which ticked Paul ticked

1:29:23 every single one. Yeah.

1:29:24 They then brought that same FBI profiler back.

1:29:27 Yeah, when these murders started happening because they called

1:29:31 them the schoolgirl killer murders.

1:29:33 And they did link the two of them together quite quickly due

1:29:36 to some marks on the bodies being similar like in that they

1:29:39 were like the same implement has been used.

1:29:41 Yeah, and one of them, the crime was committed in one place, the

1:29:46 body was found in the other, and then the reverse was true for

1:29:48 the other victim. Yes.

1:29:50 So they were like even geographically, we can link

1:29:52 them. Yeah, but what this profile is

1:29:55 did then was just by chance, it happened to be the same person.

1:29:58 And he then did a profile on what, on the schoolgirl killer

1:30:03 or killers. And he actually said there's

1:30:05 more than one of them. But they they kind of knew that

1:30:07 because people had seen to a male and a female getting

1:30:12 Christian into the car. But he actually said the exact

1:30:17 same thing. It was like, it's a male in his

1:30:19 20s. He's abusive against his any

1:30:21 domestic partner, blah, blah. Like all of the things that the

1:30:25 FBI profiler noted were true of the Scarborough rapist and,

1:30:31 yeah, the schoolgirl killer. Well, it was also like in one of

1:30:34 the rapes he did actually stab a girl, yeah, in the leg twice I

1:30:38 think it was. So he was escalating towards

1:30:41 that kind of infliction of injuries and things like that as

1:30:44 well. So this, the psychologist I was

1:30:46 listening to was of the opinion like he would have moved to

1:30:48 murder with or without Carla, potentially.

1:30:52 But the combination of the two of them is what escalated it

1:30:55 that quickly and her joining in on it.

1:30:59 So yeah, fundamentally she might not have been a murderer on her

1:31:03 own, but with the combination of somebody else, yes.

1:31:07 So, yeah, interesting. It is.

1:31:12 I just where that sits later on I'll yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:31:16 Let's get there. Let's.

1:31:18 Get to that. Oh sorry, go.

1:31:19 Oh, does it. January 25, 1993 is when the DNA

1:31:22 sample came back. Ping we've got Bernardo DNA

1:31:28 linked to the Scarborough rapists.

1:31:31 So I think they were able to to match him on all bar 1, is that

1:31:36 right? All Bar one that they actually

1:31:39 had DNA for. Yeah, they wouldn't.

1:31:40 I don't know if they got DNA off every.

1:31:41 Victim. Yeah, I don't.

1:31:42 Yeah, maybe that's what it was. They didn't have DNA for one of

1:31:45 the victims, but they were able to link him in another.

1:31:47 Way, yeah, but there was, yeah, plenty there.

1:31:50 So yes, they bring in at this point.

1:31:52 Actually, what was interesting about this point of it was they

1:31:55 actually brought in Carla, not him.

1:31:59 And they, they immediately started surveilling him, didn't

1:32:02 they? Yeah.

1:32:03 And I think they, yes, they brought her in.

1:32:05 And so at this point, they're not looking at the murders

1:32:07 whatsoever, but they're linking up a few things.

1:32:11 And they brought her in to discuss with her the the rapes,

1:32:17 to see what they would get out of her.

1:32:20 And they put it to her. And now or was the Scarborough

1:32:22 rapist or that that was what he was doing?

1:32:23 I do not believe that at this point.

1:32:25 Yeah, at this point I don't believe she didn't.

1:32:27 I mean, again, I don't know if she.

1:32:28 Knew he was the Scarborough Rapist.

1:32:30 But I believe wholeheartedly that she knew he was going out

1:32:33 and inflicting this on other people.

1:32:35 They raped women together. You know, She knows he's a

1:32:38 rapist. No, that's what I mean.

1:32:40 I think she absolutely knew he was the he was a rapist, yeah,

1:32:43 but whether she. Was we?

1:32:44 It was like, oh, he's the Scarborough Rapist, like.

1:32:47 OK, don't know if. That, well, connection had been

1:32:49 officially put together, right? Yeah.

1:32:51 But I do believe she knew that's what that's what that would be

1:32:54 behaviour of his. Yeah.

1:32:55 But. Yeah, she at first.

1:32:56 She acted all dumb and innocent and everything and all of this.

1:32:58 So yeah, had no idea. But yeah, it came.

1:33:02 I think she. But basically what it planned

1:33:04 with her was that she she needed to fess up to get to look after

1:33:09 herself here. And didn't this work out well

1:33:13 and truly in her favour? Oh my God, yeah.

1:33:15 So she so apparently she was. Questioned the first time the.

1:33:20 Police questioned her about all of this.

1:33:22 It kind of didn't really go anywhere.

1:33:23 I think the police were information gathering at this

1:33:26 point. They had nothing to accuse her

1:33:28 of necessarily. They just wanted to get some

1:33:30 information out of her. Tammy was staying with her

1:33:32 auntie and uncle. Sorry.

1:33:33 Carla was staying with her auntie and uncle at the time,

1:33:36 and she went home and actually confessed to them everything,

1:33:40 right? She said to them that Oh my God,

1:33:43 Paul has done this. I you know, he's done the rapes

1:33:48 and we actually murdered Tammy and these are the 2 girls and

1:33:54 how could you like her? Auntie and uncle basically said

1:33:58 to her, you need to get a lawyer.

1:33:59 Yes. So she did that.

1:34:01 She met with Niagara Falls lawyer George Walker.

1:34:06 Yeah. And he sought immunity from the

1:34:09 Crown from the prosecution for in exchange for all of the

1:34:13 information that that Carla. Knew, Yeah.

1:34:16 Now to, I guess in some ways, to the police's credit, they're

1:34:20 like, well, tell us what you've got and we'll see what kind of a

1:34:23 deal we can broker here. Yeah.

1:34:25 And so she did confess to some of bits and pieces, but

1:34:30 certainly not all of it. No, with that limited

1:34:33 information that she gave them, they decided.

1:34:37 To offer her a. Deal of 12 years incarceration

1:34:40 in exchange for a manslaughter conviction and her testifying

1:34:45 against Paul. Yeah, right.

1:34:47 She, they, I think they gave her seven days or something to make

1:34:50 that decision. Yeah, made it.

1:34:53 Of course she made it because she knew there was videotapes,

1:34:56 yes, although they they had not known where they were at that

1:34:59 point, but she knew that at some point this could potentially

1:35:02 come to the fore. But even in that like knowing

1:35:05 that, knowing those videotapes exist.

1:35:08 And she even stated it in in her in her statement that she that,

1:35:13 you know, the tapes will tell you like will show they'll prove

1:35:15 everything that, you know, I was being forced to do this stuff by

1:35:18 Paul, which the tapes did not show that how she but what I'm

1:35:23 saying is they've made a plea deal with her.

1:35:25 Based on her information, that's.

1:35:27 Actually, having seen the. Tapes.

1:35:28 Yeah, because the whole time she's like, so she does.

1:35:30 She spends 4 days giving them interview being.

1:35:33 Interviewed it was like thousands of pages in terms of

1:35:36 like statements. That's unbelievable.

1:35:38 So a lot of. Information.

1:35:39 But as we were saying, all of it is sort.

1:35:41 Of I was being forced to do this stuff, it was all Paul and I was

1:35:44 just doing what he was saying. Oh, my life was in danger if I

1:35:47 didn't do this stuff right. I'm a victim to the whole time

1:35:50 she's doing that. For those four straight days,

1:35:52 she's wearing a watch. Oh yes, she's wearing a Mickey

1:35:55 Mouse watch that belonged. To Kristen French.

1:36:02 So she's so innocent and so like just being made to do this.

1:36:06 What, you've stolen a victim's watch that you're wearing?

1:36:08 Piece of shit. That was like her going Manny

1:36:10 manner. Isn't it they kept?

1:36:12 Trophies from all of their. Yeah.

1:36:14 Oh, just really quickly, this is going back to Tammy Times, but

1:36:16 this just reminded me in terms of the trophies.

1:36:18 Yeah. Tammy, when Tammy died, they

1:36:21 kept Carla, kept her clothes and would dress up as Tammy and have

1:36:26 sex with Paul dressed as Tammy. They kept other trophies of hers

1:36:30 as well. Yeah.

1:36:31 That they would use in their sexual play.

1:36:35 Oh my fucking God. Yeah.

1:36:37 Like, honestly, just gross. Just disgusting.

1:36:40 Yeah. So she, I mean, she's not like,

1:36:42 I'm not saying that she wasn't a victim of.

1:36:45 Domestic violence or you know, and that she was well, that she

1:36:47 was certainly in a volatile relationship and in some ways,

1:36:52 you know, voluntarily, to be honest, I think she was, she got

1:36:55 as much out of it as Paul did in these attacks.

1:37:00 She is. She is not as much of A victim

1:37:03 as she makes out she is. Well, no.

1:37:05 This deal, that she broke it or that her lawyer broke it is

1:37:08 known colloquially. Colloquially as a deal with the

1:37:12 devil, and it absolutely is because they made this deal,

1:37:14 which is binding. It's legally binding.

1:37:16 It was caught. All the things that was, you

1:37:19 know, it was legally, yes, justly made, yeah.

1:37:23 But the police didn't actually have all of the information when

1:37:26 they or the prosecutor. Sorry, didn't have.

1:37:28 All of the information when they offered her this.

1:37:30 Yeah. So on the 17th of February, the

1:37:33 detectives arrested Bernardo on multitude of charges including

1:37:39 rape and murder. Mm Hmm.

1:37:40 Oh, no, sorry. Was it murder at this point?

1:37:42 No, I don't think they when they originally arrested him, I think

1:37:47 it was just for the rapes because they had no proof.

1:37:49 No, no evidence yet for the murders because they hadn't

1:37:52 found the tapes yet, No. So they obtained a warrant.

1:37:58 As well for this. But it was actually quite

1:38:00 limited in what they were allowed to search for with this

1:38:03 warrant. They weren't allowed to knock

1:38:04 down walls. They weren't allowed to search.

1:38:07 They weren't allowed to cause damage in their search.

1:38:09 That was explicit in the warrant.

1:38:11 Yeah. So they've gone into Paul and

1:38:14 Carla's home. Yeah.

1:38:15 They were there for something like, was it 71 days?

1:38:19 I was like, it was. I knew it was a long time, 70.

1:38:21 One day search of the house that.

1:38:23 Yeah, but it turned up. Not a lot.

1:38:25 I mean, they found trophies, they found bits.

1:38:29 And pieces, but nothing that really was that like nail in the

1:38:32 covenant and not. They knew from Carla that there

1:38:34 were videos. So that's really what they were

1:38:35 looking for. Yeah.

1:38:36 Yeah. They did not find a thing, No.

1:38:40 During a call from Jael. Bernardo.

1:38:42 Told his lawyer at the time, Ken Murray, Yeah, that the rape

1:38:46 videos were actually hidden. He had to go on a light fixture

1:38:50 in the bathroom. Yeah.

1:38:52 Removed that to get. Yeah, into the ceiling to get to

1:38:55 where the tapes were. So obviously the police a

1:38:57 weren't allowed to do that because they weren't allowed to

1:38:59 cause any damage to the structure of the building, but

1:39:02 also they hadn't looked there. Yeah, this fucking dipshit

1:39:06 lawyer. We'll see.

1:39:07 This is where I've. Read.

1:39:09 Very contradictive. Aspects of this tell me so.

1:39:12 Yeah, there's the viewpoint that he then went, oh, this is that,

1:39:15 you know, watch them and kind of went, oh, this will make my my

1:39:17 client guilty. I'll I'll hide them, Right.

1:39:19 There's that story. The other story, which is what

1:39:23 he claims in court. Yeah, Underoath is that it

1:39:27 wasn't that he hid them, It was after viewing them he knew that

1:39:31 it would be detrimental to his client.

1:39:33 And so he was protecting what trying to work out how best they

1:39:38 would be used to protect these his client from getting a trial

1:39:45 that was in the I don't know how to word it.

1:39:49 I get what he's saying in that if this become it can be became

1:39:52 public. There was no way he was going to

1:39:54 be able to get a jury or a fair trial or a fair trial.

1:39:56 So he was what that's what his goal was, was to try and work

1:40:01 out how they could be used in a way that didn't purge, not

1:40:06 perjure prejudice. People against his client, I

1:40:10 mean, but if a jury was going to see those tapes anyway, you did

1:40:12 a prejudice, prejudice you, wouldn't you?

1:40:14 I mean a. Promise that he's a murderer and

1:40:16 a rapist. Yeah, from all accounts that he

1:40:19 adamantly he's like he's what he when he watched these, these

1:40:21 like traumatized him. Seeing them, he has absolutely

1:40:25 said these are the most disgusting things he's ever seen

1:40:26 in his life. So, yeah, but he was arrested.

1:40:31 He was charged with obstruction of justice but was acquitted.

1:40:35 Yeah. So I think we have to take, you

1:40:37 know, take in account that the intention wasn't to just

1:40:40 honestly hide these. And they're not telling me.

1:40:42 Apparently he did tell people about them, but it was a

1:40:45 conversation was happening, you know, behind the scenes about

1:40:49 how it could be used and keeping it legal.

1:40:53 To be fair as well, he also resigned as Paul's leader.

1:40:57 So. Whether or not he did it, you

1:40:59 know, well, I think, I think he watched those videos and went.

1:41:02 I just can't. How do I now represent?

1:41:04 How do I now? Represent him and so, but he was

1:41:06 trying to it wasn't necessary. That he was vehemently hiding

1:41:09 them away. He was trying to work out well,

1:41:12 fuck, we're fucked. Like, you know, but how do I do

1:41:14 I what can I do here to manipulate this to try and

1:41:17 defend my client and with and that was taking time and

1:41:20 conversations with people before he was releasing them to anyone

1:41:24 else. You know, so I can't.

1:41:25 I don't think he. I think he agrees that it

1:41:28 didn't. It wasn't necessarily above

1:41:31 board, but it was like, what else am I supposed to do?

1:41:33 Like I'm trying. I'm meant to defend this person.

1:41:35 Yeah. And now I've got this like,

1:41:37 yeah, no, that's fair. He was acquitted of the yeah, of

1:41:40 it. I don't.

1:41:41 Know so, Bernardo. Hires a new lawyer upon Ken's.

1:41:47 Resignation. Yes, by the name of John Rosen.

1:41:50 And he immediately turned the tapes over to the police.

1:41:52 Yeah. So he did the right thing in my

1:41:54 mind. That's what Ken should have

1:41:57 done. His crisis of conscience.

1:41:59 I don't really understand it. Like, I, I know you're I know

1:42:03 what you're saying. I get what you're saying.

1:42:04 But he's a lawyer and he has a an oath in which he needs to and

1:42:09 a way he needs to conduct himself.

1:42:13 And I don't think he met that. Yeah, well, the judge decided he

1:42:16 did. Like they acquitted him of it.

1:42:18 Like they said it. Was a difficult situation he was

1:42:21 in, they reckon. Like they've like he was trying.

1:42:23 Apparently in the background was actually as much as he didn't

1:42:27 hand them over immediately, he was like trying to find a way

1:42:30 that they could be used to protect his client's ability of

1:42:35 getting a fair trial. Yeah.

1:42:37 And I, and I'm not saying I'm not saying that because I agree

1:42:39 with the situation. I just.

1:42:41 I'm just. Saying what I read.

1:42:42 Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think the tapes should have

1:42:45 been handed over immediately as well, but that that's his word

1:42:48 of what he apparently went on. Yeah.

1:42:52 So anyway, yes, we get to Paul's trial, I guess.

1:42:56 Well, a Malka. 'S trial first, Oh yes,

1:42:58 occurred. So obviously she's got the plea.

1:43:00 Deal. So it's not exactly a.

1:43:02 Lengthy. Situation, but she ends up being

1:43:05 in July 1993, pleads guilty to two counts of manslaughter and

1:43:10 receives A whopping 12 years in jail.

1:43:15 So there's massive controversy around this of, you know, the

1:43:19 fact that her participation because by this stage even the

1:43:23 these tapes are known about. So people are aware that she's

1:43:28 more involved than what this plea deal was based on.

1:43:32 Now the other thing we should note here obviously that she was

1:43:34 the plea deal only included two counts of murder of

1:43:37 manslaughter. Sorry, because 1 Jane Doe's

1:43:41 stuff didn't come to come around wasn't known until the tapes

1:43:45 were found. But also, Tammy wasn't known

1:43:49 until the tapes were found, so there.

1:43:53 So this is the thing where, OK, 12 years for two counts of

1:43:56 manslaughter, but in hindsight, she should also then be further

1:44:01 charged with Tammy's murder, let alone maybe a manslaughtered one

1:44:05 there as well, if that's what you want, you want to play it

1:44:07 down to because she's facing up, but she didn't really face up to

1:44:10 that as much. And the Jane Doe where she's,

1:44:13 she's assaulted her as well. So there should be assault

1:44:15 charges there and rape charges attached to that.

1:44:18 So yeah, lots of controversy around all of her sentencing.

1:44:24 But when she was released from prison, what she'd got and done

1:44:27 for herself. Wow.

1:44:28 Yeah. Yep.

1:44:31 So she left prison after the. 12 years, 2005 she was.

1:44:35 Released from prison, she changed her name actually, well,

1:44:39 Paul and. And.

1:44:41 Carla both changed their names, so they called themselves

1:44:46 surname Teal TEALE for a while there.

1:44:50 Yeah. Carla then distanced herself

1:44:52 from that, obviously, when all of the charges came down, they

1:44:54 were. She filed for divorce from him

1:44:57 after about 12 months in prison. Yeah.

1:44:59 Yeah, fair call. She is now known by Leanne

1:45:03 Baudelais. So she married a man, I think

1:45:06 his name's Stephen Baudelais. No, Cyril.

1:45:09 Oh, Terry. Terry Baudelais.

1:45:11 Terry. Yes.

1:45:11 Sorry. You're right.

1:45:12 And he? Was the brother of her legal

1:45:16 counselor? No.

1:45:18 So she did date the brother of her council.

1:45:20 His name was David and. This is where, like

1:45:23 contradictory. I mean, I might, I might be

1:45:24 wrong here because I've, what I've read is that no, that guys

1:45:27 name was David. OK.

1:45:28 And yes, she did date him when she first came out of prison.

1:45:32 And they, I think they saw each other for a while, but it didn't

1:45:34 last right then she met Terry and then married him and they've

1:45:38 had two kids. Yeah, So they live a very

1:45:41 relatively private life in they're back in Quebec now.

1:45:45 They've moved around a fair bit. But well, to be honest, sorry to

1:45:48 this day. She actually separated from him

1:45:50 in 2014, her husband, but it's it's it's not been reported.

1:45:56 They live such a private life that there's no proof of them

1:45:59 being together or not. But last known reports, whether

1:46:02 that was separated in 2014, whether that's stuck and or when

1:46:05 they got back together, I don't really I don't know.

1:46:08 But she has been seen at her kids school and hanging out

1:46:12 there and because and the which I find revolting.

1:46:15 But because she these girls were 1415 that she was assaulting,

1:46:19 but she does not have any. You know, she doesn't have to

1:46:23 report herself as a sex offender because she didn't have those

1:46:27 charges put against her. So she has no there's no legal

1:46:31 reason for her not to be around children.

1:46:33 Nope. Or have her own children.

1:46:35 Like, like, it mortifies me that she's raising children and her

1:46:39 kids are like in their late teens now, so she'd be hanging.

1:46:44 Around teenagers, I mean, would you let your child go around at

1:46:47 her place for a playdate or a sleepover as we were talking

1:46:49 earlier? Holy fuck.

1:46:51 No. And The thing is, she's changed

1:46:53 her name and stuff. I mean you.

1:46:54 Could be mistaken and not know who.

1:46:56 She was, I think you could very easily not know who she was that

1:47:00 I thought. I just find.

1:47:01 Horrendous, yeah. You just don't know.

1:47:04 And this is the thing you just don't know.

1:47:07 You don't know people. Nah.

1:47:09 So she's kept very quiet. There's been no more.

1:47:13 Incidents that we're aware of. But yeah, interesting woman.

1:47:18 She did volunteer at her kids school and then some parents

1:47:21 found out who she actually. Was and then that's very vocal

1:47:25 around her being there. Yeah, to be honest, if you

1:47:28 really want to keep. Quiet, though, wouldn't you just

1:47:29 not do that? Oh, for.

1:47:31 Sure. For sure you shouldn't, no SO.

1:47:36 We jump back a bit to Bernardo's.

1:47:40 Trial now. So obviously Carla Hamaka was

1:47:43 their key witness. She sat on the stand for 17 days

1:47:48 to give evidence against Paul, which was all part of her plea

1:47:51 deal. So at this point though the

1:47:53 tapes are out there and they were used within the trial audio

1:47:58 only and certain, the visual was only seen by those who needed to

1:48:02 to the jury, not even other attendees of the night that were

1:48:06 only allowed to listen. Yeah, there was a whole media

1:48:09 band thing on this whole trial. That is a whole thing in.

1:48:12 Canada that they have going on for a lot of think.

1:48:15 Well, back then they don't. They did.

1:48:16 I'm not sure if they still do 'cause I don't know how you

1:48:17 would these days. Back then it was hard enough

1:48:19 with people smuggling newspapers across the border from America

1:48:22 who could report on this trial. Yeah.

1:48:25 Whereas let alone now where, yeah, podcasts, et cetera, like

1:48:28 let alone, you know, Internet searches so people could find

1:48:31 information. Anyway, I don't know how they

1:48:33 would manage it. Yeah.

1:48:33 I think it's changed, yeah, But there was a very big media ban,

1:48:38 but yeah. Also, the tapes were so

1:48:39 confronting. That they didn't allow public,

1:48:42 you know, access to any of those.

1:48:44 But Carla did speak very openly at the trial and about what what

1:48:49 went on. So which to me like then this is

1:48:53 this is where like I guess it wasn't that clause in her plea

1:48:56 deal that where we've talked about the here in Australia is

1:48:59 quite often used that if if what you've put in your statement

1:49:02 isn't accurate, they can then still get you on those charges.

1:49:06 So I read somewhere that her plea deal was like ironclad.

1:49:10 Yeah, as in. I think there was even a clause

1:49:13 in it that was like, this is final.

1:49:14 You cannot perpetrate any other, yeah, any other crimes in

1:49:18 relation to this case. Like it?

1:49:20 Was. It was.

1:49:21 Clearly watertight because they've never pursued her any

1:49:23 further or been able to pursue her no further because then like

1:49:26 she's perjured herself in that in the trial she did.

1:49:29 Speak about what went on and that hurt and her and obviously

1:49:31 her partaking in it because of the video showed that.

1:49:35 So which wasn't in her original statements that she bargained

1:49:38 the plea deal on. So interesting.

1:49:41 But yeah, 17 days she sat on that, sat in the trial and did

1:49:44 that. And then Bernardo was sentenced

1:49:47 to life in prison and life with her in prison around 25 years

1:49:55 without parole. So technically in 2024, I

1:49:59 believe, Yeah, it was December 2024.

1:50:02 Yeah. It was due for to be considered

1:50:03 for parole for the third time. Sorry, yes, no, you're right cuz

1:50:06 I remember. It's all saying that I'm going,

1:50:07 I'm sure. Sorry, 1919.

1:50:09 Yeah. Sorry, 2019.

1:50:10 Yeah, there was a 2019 and somewhere in between.

1:50:13 Yeah, I think it was 2023 actually, and then 20. 24, yeah,

1:50:17 actually might have been 2022 and 2024, but every time he's

1:50:20 applied to the parole board, he's been rejected.

1:50:22 He's considered a what's the word they use or the phrase they

1:50:26 use? It's like a dangerous criminal

1:50:27 or something. Yes.

1:50:29 And so the likelihood of him ever actually gaining parole is

1:50:32 extremely slim. So even to this day, so

1:50:37 recently, he was actually moved from a.

1:50:39 Maximum security prison to a medium security prison.

1:50:44 So he's been assessed as over 14 times since 1999.

1:50:50 And one of them with the correction system uses to

1:50:54 determine an inmate is in the right, that they're in the right

1:50:58 prison. It's called a security

1:50:59 reclassification scale. And so with doing that, they

1:51:04 actually released it because of him being such a known criminal.

1:51:08 They were very transparent around the fact of why they were

1:51:11 moving him. They didn't because people have

1:51:13 been stuck. There's been such an outcry

1:51:14 about this whole case. They did release a report with

1:51:17 some bits that were redacted but fairly open public knowledge.

1:51:22 They did release a report on him so the public would feel

1:51:25 comfortable around the move, but I don't know if it did.

1:51:29 So the recommendation of him being moved had actually been

1:51:32 overridden 13 times prior to this, which to me says, well,

1:51:35 that's, you know, and maybe a hard no.

1:51:37 Yeah. That was keeping him in the

1:51:39 maximum security one. But more recently he was that he

1:51:44 was deemed as being that the significant risk wasn't there

1:51:48 anymore. OK, so apparently he's been a

1:51:51 little bit of a model, model inmate.

1:51:53 Yeah, because he's fucking charming the pants off people to

1:51:55 get what he wants. There was, it was.

1:51:59 There was a report. Part of the report was.

1:52:02 There was heavily redacted aspects of the report that

1:52:05 suggested that he that sorry, he was, that he was actually more

1:52:12 of a victim in prison than a perpetrator.

1:52:16 I've heard that, but that to me, I'm like, well, that's just

1:52:19 dessert sting. Yep.

1:52:22 So he's actually only when he was in maximum security he was

1:52:25 actually. Released into sort of more

1:52:26 general population, like twice, yeah, in two different periods

1:52:30 of time. Felt the shit beaten out of him

1:52:32 both times. Yeah, but he's also been found.

1:52:34 To have contraband in his cell and he has also.

1:52:37 Perpetrated a few things as well over the time he's been in

1:52:40 prison. He made a shit and tried to stab

1:52:42 someone. Yeah, yeah.

1:52:44 The one part of it that was. Redacted that I don't think

1:52:46 should have been was that they did do.

1:52:47 A study, a test on him called the severe sexual Sadism scale.

1:52:52 We didn't get to see that, didn't get the results of that,

1:52:53 unfortunately. Which to me, honestly, the fact

1:52:55 that you even have to. Administer that.

1:52:57 Or redact. It and then.

1:52:59 Redact, it says, oh, hello. Yeah, we don't need.

1:53:01 We probably actually don't. Need any more information?

1:53:03 Expression that no. So yeah, but in 2020.

1:53:08 Three, he was deemed as being several responsivity.

1:53:12 There was sorry, there were several responsivity issues with

1:53:16 him and they warned that his imprisonment should remain

1:53:19 imminent. Yeah.

1:53:20 So I think from what I heard in terms of his move from the

1:53:23 maximum security to. Medium security was because over

1:53:27 time, he poses less of a risk to the prison population.

1:53:32 Yeah. And so the likelihood is he'll

1:53:34 be in prison forever. But he was able to be moved

1:53:37 because of other inmates, not because of.

1:53:40 He's gonna be out in the Yeah, that's right.

1:53:42 Or be out in bloody society again.

1:53:44 No, They'll just want to make sure that he wasn't gonna be

1:53:47 able to escape. That's right.

1:53:48 Because he's still a risk to the community.

1:53:50 Yes. Absolutely.

1:53:51 He asked to be moved to this prison though, because of the

1:53:54 facilities. There Yeah he's like super into

1:53:56 his health and fitness and it's got like a world class gym there

1:54:00 was a photo of him yeah in the the van like that they actually

1:54:04 got through that and he's. Still kind of look at him and go

1:54:06 like he's, he's an actually decent looking guy, which he's

1:54:09 gotten quite a bit of attention from those unusual women who

1:54:14 think that writing letters to serial killers and stuff's good.

1:54:19 So he, he's had many a relationship in prison, got

1:54:23 quite the number of pen pals, doesn't he?

1:54:25 Yeah, which even with me. Saying he's a bit hot.

1:54:30 This is fucking no way. Oh my God, no, no way.

1:54:33 Why would you write letters to someone like that?

1:54:34 Like it's just, you know, he's like.

1:54:36 Murdered. And raped people.

1:54:38 Even Carla or she was in prison. So at first she had a

1:54:41 relationship with a woman. Whilst in prison for quite an

1:54:43 extended period of time, but the two of them broke up and they

1:54:45 changed prisons and then came back together.

1:54:47 But it was clear that that was over.

1:54:49 Yeah. She then ended up having a

1:54:51 sexual relationship, an intimate relationship with Paul's

1:54:57 cellmate. How the fuck does that happen?

1:55:00 Well to see this is the. This is the thing that gets me

1:55:04 with. Carla, I'm like, have you not

1:55:07 learnt your fucking lesson? Yeah.

1:55:09 I mean, part of her release conditions is that she's to be

1:55:13 not. Communicating with that bloke at

1:55:15 all, but then she's gotten to him in another way by being with

1:55:18 her, with the cellmate. Like as you.

1:55:20 No, no, I mean no, no, the cellmate as well.

1:55:22 It's part of her condition that she's not to have any.

1:55:24 Contact with Paul or the cellmate that she had a

1:55:27 relationship with. Whilst in jail.

1:55:29 Yeah, OK. Oh God, yeah, come on.

1:55:32 And because this guy is a hardcore.

1:55:34 Like he's. I couldn't.

1:55:36 So what? Did he?

1:55:36 Why? Wasn't she thrown back in prison

1:55:38 then? No, this was while she was in.

1:55:40 Prison. Oh, right, no, yeah, like while

1:55:43 she's in. Prison.

1:55:43 Somehow she was having this relationship with this bloke.

1:55:46 Oh, I thought it was after she was in prison.

1:55:48 What the fuck. Like honestly, I.

1:55:51 Just can't even with this woman I cannot even no so I mean who

1:55:55 was this person she married and I don't know I.

1:55:59 My opinion of her is that I think she's just as evil.

1:56:03 Agree Paul. I agree.

1:56:05 I I listening to this psychologist talk about her, I

1:56:07 do agree with what she said, that what would she become a

1:56:09 murderer without Paul? Probably not.

1:56:13 Maybe not. I, I can't guarantee that.

1:56:15 Maybe not. Maybe maybe someone else she

1:56:17 would have met. She would have taken down a bad

1:56:18 path. I don't know.

1:56:20 But she clearly had a lot fucking going wrong with her,

1:56:22 that's for sure. I think she, as you know, she

1:56:25 would have, she would have injured, hurt something, some

1:56:28 people, whether it was murder or not, murder or not, who knows?

1:56:33 Who knows? Yeah.

1:56:34 And I. Dread to think.

1:56:36 Of her as a mother oh this is those poor kids do not I hope

1:56:40 that there are people with. Eyeballs on that family like I

1:56:44 mean. Child protection that have to

1:56:46 surely. I mean, but then she's not a

1:56:48 convicted sex offender, so. But but she is a sex.

1:56:51 But she is a sex offender. I know, but then would she have

1:56:53 been even alerted to authorities because she doesn't have a

1:56:56 conviction for that. We could talk around this for

1:56:58 ages. Oh fuck yeah.

1:57:00 Should we leave it there? Anything else you wanna add?

1:57:03 I mean, there's. Look again, we say this.

1:57:05 Every week there's if you wanna know more about it.

1:57:07 There is a lot of content out there.

1:57:09 Yeah, a lot of conflicting information.

1:57:11 So as we said, we've really done our best to kind of keep on

1:57:14 trash. So how long we've gone for?

1:57:15 I know. Sorry guys.

1:57:19 Thank you very much. For joining us again next week,

1:57:22 we are going to be bringing you a case from Ireland with a

1:57:25 French person, actually. Yeah.

1:57:27 Sophie Toscan Duplantiere. Oh, well done, you said.

1:57:30 Thank you. I've been practicing.

1:57:33 We're gonna have to practice. A lot.

1:57:34 Some of the names I'm gonna. Be fucked do that we'll.

1:57:40 Call her Sophie. I've enjoying that E this

1:57:43 episode enough. It's enough for me.

1:57:47 So yeah, stay tuned next week for that one.

1:57:49 Thank you for joining us. Don't forget to.

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1:58:13 Excellent. Stay curious.

1:58:14 Crime besties. Bye.