Episode 83 - David and Catherine Birnie: The Moorhouse Murders

0:15 Welcome back to Crime Besties, we are here for our last episode

0:19 before Easter. Oh.

0:20 My God, I hadn't even put that together.

0:22 Yeah, next Friday is Easter. Good.

0:24 Friday so this this comes out in yeah on Tuesday before Tuesday,

0:28 Good Friday and we are actually taking a one week break yes

0:32 we're just gonna have a week to catch up do what we need to do

0:36 spend some time with our families yeah take a breath and

0:41 we'll be back the week after for sure Yep so.

0:44 Ready and ready to go. Actually, I think, do we return

0:46 with it? No, we don't.

0:47 We do. We'll have a double episode.

0:49 Coming up soon, yes, Yep, we do. So that's a bit exciting.

0:53 It's really kind of reasonable to do you.

0:56 Feel like I'm I really need to get started on that now.

0:58 Like over the last. So we can't, we can't actually

1:02 rest on our laurels. No, we've got a lot to do.

1:03 There's a lot for that yes. Actually I'm I'm so not I don't

1:08 know that case and it's a huge 1 so.

1:10 I'm I don't know many specifics about it.

1:13 I think I know a very broad. Joker about it, yeah.

1:15 Yeah. So I'm like.

1:16 Can anyone guess what we're talking about?

1:18 Pop it in the comments, let us know what you think it might be.

1:21 Just also Speaking of things that are coming up, our merch is

1:25 not very far away. So I think probably it'll be

1:27 after Easter now. Yep.

1:29 We will announce that on our socials.

1:32 Listen out. In our next episode, we'll give

1:34 some more details. And you should probably do some

1:36 modelling for it maybe. Oh yeah, totally.

1:38 Yeah, yeah, 'cause I'd be really good at that.

1:41 Yeah, yeah. So yeah, stay tuned for that.

1:44 We're really, really excited to launch all that.

1:46 Oh my God, It's been an absolute.

1:47 You would think that there would be an easy way to do these

1:51 things. Turns out there's not and we've.

1:52 We've looked into this. Extensively.

1:54 Like, please don't think that we've just been going.

1:57 Oh yeah, yeah, and we're here. You want merch?

1:58 Yeah. Ignoring you.

2:00 We've been working. Hard on it also.

2:01 Like I feel like if you're in the US, oh merch.

2:04 Is easy, yes yeah, in. Australia, it is really hard and

2:07 I get it, there's 300 million people in the US, it's easier.

2:10 We've got 20, what, 6 million people in Australia and we're so

2:14 spread out and it is a lot harder.

2:16 But anyway, we we think we've got a solution, we're just gonna

2:19 wait on some samples, make sure they're all.

2:21 Good. We.

2:22 Want it to be good quality. That's right.

2:24 Once we've got that, we will be launching an all team.

2:26 And you can all arrive at your school pickups with pieces of

2:29 shit written on your jumpers. Yeah, and when that sparks the

2:34 conversation, you know what you need to do, don't you?

2:36 Recommend. Your podcast, obviously.

2:40 So how has your week been? Oh, it's obviously winding

2:45 hopefully down to the school holidays cause it's been insane.

2:48 Mm hmm. Mental but I have an update on

2:51 frogs. OK.

2:54 Sorry, I know you were pretty adamant about this wasn't gonna

2:57 occur. And I was like, no, it's not

2:58 happening. No, no, they don't croak, right?

3:01 I was watching TV the other night and I could have sworn

3:05 that the fucking predator had entered my house.

3:07 Oh my. God there was a noise and it

3:11 does not sound like a but everyone knows what a croak of a

3:13 frog sounds like. But then they will have slightly

3:15 different croaks according to my mad mental son that knows

3:19 everything about frogs. OK, they all croak differently

3:23 but I'm sorry this was not a croak.

3:25 This was the predator. Oh my God.

3:27 Because I was like, there's gotta be like a it.

3:30 Well, I'm I'm no joke. Like legitimately it sounds like

3:34 the predator. And I was like, I'm gonna die.

3:37 And pop it. I don't know, because they don't

3:39 do it very often. OK, well, so far that is it lit.

3:42 But it's unnerving because you don't know when it's gonna

3:46 happen. And I thought there was at

3:48 first. I'm like, fuck the predator.

3:50 I see. And then I was like, you know,

3:51 that's be sensible. There's got to be a bird in here

3:55 like, oh God, it's not a bird in my house.

3:59 And I was like, no, this is frogs that are making that

4:01 noise. It's.

4:03 Yeah, were multiple frogs making the same noise or couldn't come

4:06 and tell them, Right. So it's not like one started off

4:10 and then the other ones. No, because they made the sound

4:12 and then nothing. And then I like went to bed a

4:15 little more on there. I know because then I'm laying

4:16 in bed and I hear it and I'm like, fuck, like the yeah.

4:20 Yeah, yeah. Oh, I had to sacrifice my son

4:24 the other day. Speaking of birds in the house.

4:26 So I told you this story. So we had I was actually

4:30 bringing washing in from outside.

4:31 This was before school 1 morning.

4:33 Peter had already gone off to work and I'd I was bringing

4:37 washing in from outside on a clothes horse.

4:39 And so I had the door wide open, the back door wide open.

4:43 And then something happened. Lucas called me.

4:46 He was in my bathroom and Lucas called me.

4:48 So I've kind of left the washing.

4:51 Yeah. And I've gone into my bathroom,

4:53 which is down the other end of the house.

4:55 MMM But left the door wide open. Yeah.

4:58 Anyway, next minute Oliver comes out and he's like, mum, mum,

5:00 there's a bird in the house. And I'm like, Oh my God, 'cause

5:03 I can't. I don't do flapping, I don't do

5:05 flappy flying things either. So I've locked myself in my

5:09 bedroom. Leave the kids to.

5:11 Sacrifice. Lucas was with me.

5:13 He's like, I'm not, I'm not having a bar of this bird.

5:15 Particular child that you chose. So I'm like, I want that

5:19 sacrifice yourself. And he's like, mum, calm down.

5:24 I've gotten the bird out and I'm like, I'm, I'm thinking to

5:26 myself. The right kid to be the right

5:28 kid to be, yeah. And I'm thinking to myself, oh,

5:30 I'm gonna go out there. There's gonna be like bird shit

5:32 everywhere. Well, not, not a problem, not a

5:34 feather, not a feather to be found.

5:36 And it was one of those minor birds.

5:38 Oh, they're, they're evil, those birds.

5:40 I'm convinced they're evil. Up there with pigeons, yeah,

5:43 yeah. Filthy little fuckers.

5:46 So thank God Oliver was home. I don't know.

5:49 Yes, I would have done. I would have had to have stayed

5:51 in my room. Sorry Ollie, get yourself to

5:56 school. Oh God, yeah.

6:00 Just life over. Done.

6:01 Yeah, done. It's that's what ends.

6:03 Yeah, you know how people are like, oh, if there's a spider in

6:05 my house, I'd rather burn it down.

6:06 I'll have to burn that shit. Down.

6:07 I'll see. I'm fine with spiders.

6:08 I can do spiders. Crawly creepy crawlies I have no

6:12 issue with whatsoever. Birds.

6:14 No, no, I do get you entirely. I'll never forget that.

6:18 My brother is like, he cannot handle any kind of bird.

6:21 Whereas I'm like, OK, fly flappy things.

6:23 Yeah, I can't when it's flapping and flying or not, He can't

6:27 stand birds, full stop. Like, there's like, Right.

6:29 So as a teacher, I used to do the whole egg hatching

6:32 programme. And.

6:33 Yeah. And so we ended up with these

6:34 chickens and I'd bring them home on the weekend to look after

6:38 them. And my brother could not handle

6:41 cute little baby chicks. I couldn't either.

6:44 Honestly, I couldn't. I can't.

6:45 I thought, I can handle their little tiny little chicks

6:47 chirping like kind of thing. He was like, he fully, like,

6:49 could not handle them at all. Yeah, being in the same vicinity

6:52 as him, it was bloody hilarious. My.

6:54 In laws have chickens. I mean, they they get them grown

6:57 so they have them for eggs. Yeah.

6:59 And I can't even go in the coop. I right I can't.

7:02 But they used to that growing up.

7:04 We used to go to my nan's farm and stuff and we'd, yeah, I'd go

7:07 and collect the eggs, everyone. It was my job to do that.

7:08 But yeah, I can handle that. But I still I can't say if they

7:11 do the flappy, if they start flapping, I'm out like but as

7:14 long as they're sitting still, I'm OK.

7:15 But even then, we. Don't know when they're gonna

7:17 flap, so don't know where to get up.

7:19 Just like I just can't. I just absolutely can't.

7:23 Yeah. Jesus.

7:24 We've had a really busy, like, end to this term.

7:27 Yeah. Like the kid, the stuff at

7:28 schools like, you know, really ramped up towards the end.

7:31 Next week's, the last week of term and Oliver, my grade 6 kids

7:35 going on a on Cam. So I'm like, Oh my God, they're

7:38 gonna be exhausted when they get back, but at least then we've

7:40 got the holidays. Although I feel like those kids

7:43 who like I was only having this conversation with something,

7:45 that's when they they've planned like their Easter holidays,

7:47 right? And they're going away camping.

7:48 So their kid gets back from school camp and then goes

7:52 camping and she's like, it's gonna be a write off.

7:55 Like it'll be a write. Off it's gonna be a shit show,

7:57 yeah. Yeah, you're just gonna have to

7:58 do with the moods. Yeah, and everything.

8:00 That comes with it. Hopefully there's no illness on

8:02 Camp Touchwood. There's no noise, almost.

8:06 But anyway, we'll see. We'll just deal with it, take it

8:09 as it comes. They're all very excited.

8:10 I bet they are. It's grade 6 camp.

8:12 I mean, I was we're looking as well like the weather because it

8:14 actually looks quite good. For next week, it does.

8:16 And we're saying that, you know, they'll have fun regardless of

8:19 the weather anyway because did they have like a beach thing

8:22 yesterday when it was pissing with rain pissing?

8:23 Down with rain. They were down at Mordielic

8:25 Beach doing oh, God only knows what.

8:28 Like they would just, yeah, Oliver was so disappointed

8:33 because they didn't get to do all the things because it was

8:34 apparently it was so windy as well, like all the sand blowing

8:38 on everyone and in their face stuff.

8:41 So he's like, look, it wasn't what it was meant to be, but.

8:44 They would have had. A ball.

8:45 They still had a great day. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

8:47 The bus trip's fun, let alone like what you do when you get

8:49 there. Right, exactly.

8:51 Right. I've got some more

8:53 recommendations. I feel like, yes, I I've been

8:57 doing this a lot lately, but I really feel strongly that I need

9:00 to get these reco's out to the people.

9:03 Yeah, mostly to you as well. Yes.

9:05 So. I need that.

9:06 Did you ever watch Deadlock season 1?

9:08 Oh my God yes. How good is it?

9:09 Deadlock Season 2 is out. I haven't washed it.

9:12 It's on my list. It's on my list.

9:14 It's so good. Yeah, it is.

9:16 So good. So they're in the top end this

9:18 time. Yeah, it's absolutely it is

9:21 everything you want it to be and more.

9:23 Yes, Highly highly recommend. Can't wait to get into that.

9:25 And then my other recommendation is how to get to heaven from

9:30 Belfast. Oh, I don't know this one.

9:32 It's on. No, it's on prime.

9:33 I think it's on Prime, and it is for all of our listeners on this

9:38 podcast. You will love it.

9:40 Yeah. Because it's a bit of a, well, a

9:42 murder mystery. But anyway, watch it.

9:45 Yeah, It's so funny. It's about a group of, well,

9:49 there were four. It's about a group of four girls

9:51 and something happens to one of them.

9:53 OK as an adult. So you sort of there's

9:55 flashbacks to them as teenagers and then them as women.

9:59 Yeah. And it's fantastic.

10:01 The characters are amazing. I fucking love their accents.

10:04 Did you ever watch Derry Girl? Yep.

10:07 Obsessed. So they've got dairy accents,

10:09 which I just bloody love. And it's great.

10:13 Yeah. It's so captivating, this show.

10:16 Yeah, it's. Fantastic.

10:17 So I've just finished that this. OK, it's really, really getting

10:20 onto that one because you know what comes out today at 2:00 PM?

10:22 A what? The last install.

10:24 Yeah. Of Love story.

10:26 Yeah. I mean, we know.

10:27 We all know what happens. Yeah, unfortunately I'm just

10:32 hanging to watch. That me too.

10:33 Yeah, Me too. So did you like in the last

10:36 episode was like watching the Princess Diana stuff unfold?

10:39 Yeah. That was interesting.

10:41 It was interesting and point in time.

10:43 Yeah. Yeah.

10:45 Incredible because I mean, I mean, that's such, I mean it's

10:47 like it's well, similar to his dad, you know, like everyone

10:49 knows where they were when if you were alive.

10:51 Like obviously I mean, even I wasn't alive then.

10:54 The Princess Diana. Oh, JFK.

10:56 Hey, you were close though. Not even God, yeah, that

11:05 everyone knows where they were when the events sort of

11:07 occurred. Like to have that kind of, I

11:09 guess to have another one of those moments in his time, in

11:12 his lifetime and hit him, you know, so hard, obviously.

11:15 Like. Wow.

11:16 Yeah, huge. Absolutely massive.

11:19 Where were you when Princess Diana died?

11:20 I was. Actually, at school it was

11:22 because it was a weekend, either Saturday or Sunday.

11:25 I was at school rehearsing a play that we were doing that.

11:29 Yeah. And I remember someone coming in

11:31 and telling us and all of us going, no, whatever, no, that's

11:35 not true, That we then derailed the entire rehearsal that we

11:40 were having, like searching, trying to find out information

11:42 about it, kind of going. And it wasn't as easy to search

11:44 back then. No, because it was.

11:46 Like 1997 I think. That she passed away.

11:49 Yeah. It must have been, Yeah.

11:51 It must have been your 11:00-ish.

11:52 Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it was, Yeah.

11:55 We were trying to find out information.

11:56 I remember it was just being derailed from the rehearsal and

11:58 then kind of it confirmed and yeah, yeah.

12:00 What about you? Where were you?

12:01 I was actually at a girlfriend's house.

12:03 We were having a sleepover. And I remember I was, we were in

12:06 a lounge room and her mum was like, no, sorry.

12:08 We were in her bedroom. And her mum was like, come out,

12:10 come and watch this on TV. Like, yeah, something's

12:12 happened. Yeah.

12:14 And I think it was just, I remember the announcement was

12:18 like, we've just found out she died.

12:20 And yeah, it was just, Oh my God, it was unbelievable.

12:24 Yeah, yeah. Wow.

12:26 I mean, I think, I think we found like this person was

12:28 coming saying that the car accident occurred because it

12:30 wasn't confirmed till later in the day that she was she had

12:33 died kind of thing. That's right.

12:34 Nah, what? Like, yeah.

12:37 Huge. Absolutely insane.

12:39 Yeah. Yep, crazy, crazy.

12:42 We have quite a few shout outs for today.

12:45 We've got we've got 3 new Patreons, so Haley Hickman,

12:49 Christy Koleski and Jodi Dench. When Jodi Dench signed up, I

12:53 have to say I just because the notification kind of popped up

12:56 on my phone and I was like Judi Dench, I'm sure she gets that

13:01 all the time. I'm sure I just.

13:05 Realized what you said. I know where you're going.

13:10 Anyway, welcome, Jodie. Welcome, Jodie, Haley and

13:13 Christie, thank you so much for joining us.

13:15 Amazing. So, so very much appreciated.

13:18 Yeah. So today we are talking about

13:22 the case of David and Catherine Burnie.

13:26 This is just. I feel like it's so funny

13:29 because you know, where there's cases where you just think

13:31 everyone knows about them. Yeah.

13:33 To me, this is one of those cases because I don't know, I

13:38 feel like they're just part of the vernacular.

13:40 It's just, I don't know if it's because we're in this space,

13:43 like we're interested in all of this stuff.

13:46 I thought everyone knew who they were.

13:48 Well, I was talking to Pete. He's like, oh, what case are you

13:50 doing today? And he's like, oh, Nah, never

13:52 heard of him. Yep.

13:53 I'm like, OK, interesting, interesting.

13:55 Yes. But basically we're talking

13:58 about this five week killing spree that these two went on in

14:01 1986. Yes.

14:04 And it's just so contextually, this was 10 years before the

14:09 Claremont murders in Claremont, basically, Yeah.

14:13 And it's. Some of the same sort of areas

14:18 get mentioned in this, which you find kind of.

14:20 It's really fascinating that. And then in the same area,

14:22 terrifying. But also I think it's really

14:26 interesting that yeah, that that these two things happened

14:30 separately 10 years apart and yet you look back on it to me, I

14:35 look back on both and I think, Oh yeah, that's they were

14:39 really, really significant events in Australia little and

14:43 just in. Perth yes in Perth kind of still

14:46 to stay and we always say you know you kind of like you know

14:48 you fly to Perth from from eastern side of Australia and

14:51 you like go back in time well they.

14:52 Say, you know, from Melbourne it's 55 hours and 50 years,

14:55 yeah, behind. Sorry Perth, we don't mean that.

15:01 We don't mean I bloody I think I love.

15:03 It's so beautiful. It's such a beautiful part of

15:05 Australia. It's a Sleepy Hollow in so many

15:08 ways, but it's a city at the same time.

15:09 I mean, I think the lifestyle living in Perth is so

15:12 phenomenal. I, I think it's a great place to

15:15 raise a family and, you know, grow up and live.

15:17 I think it's a, it's stunning. So, I mean, you're so close to

15:19 so many amazing places to visit. And like, even just desert and

15:24 yeah, there's so much, so much on offer there.

15:27 Yeah, I think Perth is actually the world's most remote capital

15:31 city. Yeah, because it is, as we said,

15:34 to fly from Melbourne, the other side of Australia, it's a 4-5

15:38 hour flight depending on, you know, when you go.

15:41 Yeah. So I think for people who live

15:44 in like Europe in particular, it's just unfathomable,

15:47 absolutely to go to another state.

15:49 We have to fly for that. And drive to other country in

15:51 less than that. Yeah, that's right State.

15:53 Exactly. Yeah.

15:55 And it is really remote. It's it's not near any of the

15:58 other capital cities who are all basically, you know more eastern

16:01 side of Australia. Yeah.

16:03 So it is very remote, but yeah, lots of significant things have

16:08 happened there and including this case, definitely.

16:10 So for people who haven't maybe heard of David and Catherine,

16:14 Bernie, you may have heard of this case referred to as the

16:17 Morehouse Murders. So that refers to the street in

16:21 which these absolute atrocities took place.

16:24 Yeah. So, yeah, can be, can be sort of

16:28 referred to as both, but I thought we could start by having

16:32 a chat about David. Yeah.

16:34 And Catherine separately, and their childhoods, because I

16:37 think it's very relevant and very, very relevant.

16:40 So both of them were born in 1951.

16:43 David was born in February, Catherine in May.

16:45 So they're only a few months apart.

16:47 And they had, in some ways, certain parallels in their early

16:52 childhoods. But then there were also, you

16:53 know, significant differences as well.

16:55 Yeah. Both had deeply, deeply

16:58 traumatic childhoods. So David was the eldest of five

17:02 children. His mother was an chronic

17:05 alcoholic, and his father was physically disabled.

17:08 I believe his father had scoliosis.

17:11 Yeah. And but it meant that he had

17:13 very limited physical ability and therefore very limited, I

17:19 guess, ability to go out and earn and provide for the family.

17:23 Yeah. Whether that was the only thing

17:25 stopping him, I don't know. I forget a.

17:30 Vibe house was that they grew up that David and his siblings

17:34 initially grew up in was apparently absolutely filthy

17:39 like. They just they didn't really

17:41 want children. No, they had no intention of

17:43 really raising them or. Caring.

17:45 Caring for them, yeah. Neither of the parents ever

17:48 cooked a home meal. Apparently.

17:50 They often didn't even have electricity in the home, and so

17:54 the refrigerator, just the door was open.

17:56 Yeah, left open and the kids would just get whatever rants

18:00 said food was. In there and that was from a

18:03 very young age. It was literally if you survive,

18:05 you survive mate. Like good for your.

18:07 Expectation, I think as well was that, oh, I don't know whether

18:10 David took this on himself but or whether this was an

18:13 expectation of his parents, but he tried in some ways to look

18:17 after his younger siblings and, yeah, find food where they

18:20 could. And it's just, it's

18:22 heartbreaking. This is the only time I have

18:24 sympathy for this bloke. It's he's a victim of

18:31 circumstance in this situation for sure.

18:34 Yeah. There were also rumours of

18:36 family incest. Yeah, with the dad in relation

18:42 to the dad and and the children in the family.

18:45 Yeah. Apparently David's mum was

18:50 disgusting. Like she was completely unkempt.

18:54 Swore like a sailor. Yeah.

18:55 Well, nothing wrong with that. Nothing wrong with that.

18:57 Fuck an. Hell yeah.

18:58 Fuck. An oath, mate, but she never

19:04 like, never cooked or cleaned. She would exchange sexual

19:07 favours for taxi rides, taxi rides and other services that,

19:11 yeah, she needed. Yeah.

19:13 And that and in front of the children.

19:15 Yeah, yeah, yeah. So this is not any typical

19:19 upbringing by any means. No, no, no, not at all.

19:24 When the family, So when David was 12 years of age, his family

19:29 moved house and they ended up moving next door to Catherine

19:33 and her family. So she was also 12 years of age.

19:36 Now Catherine's childhood was was tragic in a very different

19:40 way. Well, in some ways in a

19:42 different way. So Catherines mother died in

19:45 childbirth with you when she was delivering Catherines younger

19:49 brother. Yes, Catherines younger brother,

19:51 then several days later passed away himself.

19:53 So it was just Catherine and her father.

19:55 Yeah, the age. Of two she was, yeah, with her

19:58 dad with her. Dad and he decided to move to

20:00 South Africa. And he was apparently he was

20:04 very, very abusive. Yeah, verbally and physically.

20:07 I don't know if it extended to the sexual stuff.

20:10 There's nothing I wouldn't. Don't know.

20:12 You didn't find. Anything to that effect either

20:14 no. Given everything that happened,

20:16 I'm not, I'm not at all suggesting that her father was a

20:20 perpetrator of sexual violence, but I questioned whether she had

20:24 some kind of sexual violence in her past.

20:27 There's, there's nothing out there that says anything about

20:29 it. I just, it's, it's, it's a

20:32 dynamic that I think would be possible given everything that

20:36 came after. So after being in South Africa

20:41 with her dad for about 12 months, he decided he couldn't

20:43 handle her anymore, didn't really want her.

20:45 So he sent her back to Australia to live with her maternal

20:48 grandparents. Now her maternal grandmother was

20:52 especially her grandmother was very, very strict.

20:55 And this was a really difficult situation.

20:58 I mean, if you think about it from the perspective she would

21:02 have been, what, 4-5 years old at this point when she was sent

21:05 back to live in Australia with her grandparents.

21:07 Yeah. The disruption of losing your

21:10 mom, losing your brother, moving to South Africa, your dad not

21:13 wanting you moving back to Australia, That's a lot of a

21:17 very young child. I normally that you sort of, I

21:19 mean, OK, from a perspective of a child to losing their mother

21:23 and yes, tragic circumstances how she was lost.

21:25 But a child at that age can take that as abandonment kind of, you

21:28 know, sort of issue. Then dad is abusive towards you

21:31 and also then decides I don't want you anymore.

21:33 More abandonment send you to a a home where again, it's very

21:37 strict and tight because this family kind of what you very

21:40 easily could be perceived by that child like because you

21:42 don't want me like I'm I'm a problem.

21:45 So from that perspective of the child of that age development,

21:50 the brain is basically perceiving all of this as I'm

21:53 unwanted by everyone, I'm rejected by everyone and society

21:57 in whole. I'm no good, I'm not meeting

22:00 anyone's standards. I'm just a problem.

22:02 Well then this got worse for her then didn't it?

22:04 Because her grandmother had this massive seizure which landed her

22:08 in hospital for a significant amount of time and she was then

22:12 shipped off to live with her auntie and uncle.

22:15 So she's again being just fobbed off.

22:17 That's. Shifting and shifting again,

22:18 it's yeah. So that when you think about

22:20 what that actually the impact of that mentally at that age of

22:23 what that is doing to her. The auntie and uncle then

22:26 rejected her and sent her back to her grandparents again once

22:29 once grandmother had recovered. Yeah, I just the disruption to

22:33 this, yeah, to this little girl's life.

22:35 Yes, so you can understand that when she has, at the age of 12,

22:39 a boy moved next door. Who they they interact and go

22:46 someone wants me how that how dependent you can become very

22:51 quickly on someone who shows any sign of affection.

22:56 It may have been as simple as we like the same thing as a 12 year

23:00 old. Of what?

23:01 The interpretation of that of that young girl who's been

23:04 rejected by everyone? How that must have felt.

23:08 I I fully agree with you and that is exactly what happened.

23:11 So I think Catherine was an. So David was quite a switched on

23:16 boy for somebody who didn't go to school all that often and

23:22 wasn't. He was neglected by his family.

23:25 Yeah. He was actually very well read

23:28 and he knew a lot about a lot. Yeah.

23:31 So I guess that was probably how he passed his time.

23:34 But that was really intriguing to her.

23:36 He knew about politics and current affairs and science and

23:41 he was engaging, like he was really charismatic and really

23:45 drew her in. And it got to the point where

23:49 the two of them were engaging in a sexual relationship before

23:52 they turned 14. Yeah, yeah.

23:55 But and like, taking away what happens down the track.

23:58 Yeah. Looking at it just at that point

24:00 in time, yes, I can fully understand why that occurred

24:03 because these are two people who have been, like treated so

24:08 poorly by the world, who find each other and like, go and you

24:12 feel like you have a person. And I, I can fully understand

24:15 that becoming a sexual relationship, even as a 14 year

24:19 old, because it's just like how I want love from someone and I'm

24:22 getting it. They gave it to it.

24:24 They gave each other exactly what both of them needed.

24:26 Yeah. And I mean, that doesn't happen

24:28 in life very often, like for people like that.

24:31 That's so true. So I mean, it was, they were, it

24:34 was so circumstantial that they came together.

24:36 But you're right, they found what they needed in each other

24:39 at the time. And I do wonder whether if paths

24:43 had not gone, how it went, as in if this was the moment where

24:46 they found each other. They they are in love at

24:48 fourteen, they get married at 18, have babies, have a life.

24:53 I wonder how that would have looked compared to then what

24:57 happened to them because unfortunately their lives around

25:01 them are so fucked up that this doesn't go down that narrow path

25:06 of, you know, they've found each other.

25:07 Life continues with just the two of them.

25:08 Yeah, that's so true. So what happened after this is

25:12 David and his siblings were removed from the home due to

25:15 neglect. So they were obviously, I think

25:20 Child Protective Services, whatever they're called, N.W.A,

25:23 I'm not sure, but they were involved with this family on and

25:26 off over the years. But it got to a point where it

25:29 had. Reached enough to be.

25:30 Honest, no. Earlier, absolutely not enough

25:32 and not early enough. But it got to a point where the

25:35 children were removed from the home and sent to foster care.

25:38 And so at that point, David and Catherine lost touch because,

25:45 yeah, they've he's been removed. She's obviously still at home

25:48 with her grandparents. And.

25:50 Yeah. And that's kind of how it went

25:51 out. David then was.

25:55 He was a very little man and very small and skinny.

26:00 I mean, he was probably malnourished from birth.

26:02 Yeah. So he's probably failure to

26:04 thrive. And, you know, he never probably

26:07 grew to his full potential. Yeah.

26:09 And so he he was an absolute shit at school apparently, like

26:14 always getting into trouble. Yeah.

26:16 And, you know, not doing his work just.

26:19 Causing trouble? Not due to the fact that he

26:21 wasn't intelligent as you're saying, right?

26:23 Yeah. Yeah, yeah, he was just.

26:25 Just a shit. Just a shit.

26:26 Well, yeah, when he'd been raised like that.

26:28 That's it. I mean, he had no boundaries at

26:30 home. No.

26:30 So he decided, well, I, I think he was probably pushed to leave

26:35 school and he, yeah, he became an apprentice jockey now.

26:39 Fuck, this is where all the fucked up shit really.

26:42 Starts real bad here. So he was actually a border at

26:46 Was it Ascot? Yeah, I think you're cool.

26:48 Yeah, I think that's. Ringing a bell?

26:50 Sorry, I actually didn't write it down.

26:52 I didn't either, but that that sounds familiar.

26:54 And he, so he was a border there and a jockeys assistant and

26:57 moved his way into actually riding horses and whatever

27:00 jockeys do. Yeah.

27:03 Now there were so many things that happened.

27:05 And he he was only there for such a short amount of time.

27:09 Yeah. But he did so many bad things.

27:11 So people who worked with him in the stable said that they caught

27:15 him hurting horses. Yeah.

27:18 I don't know specifically what he did.

27:19 Did you? Know everywhere just sort of

27:21 would harm to animals and So what that means was.

27:25 Probably good that we don't know exactly what happened I.

27:28 Probably can't handle that. He also there was a landlady so

27:32 where the board where all of the jockeys boarded, there was a

27:35 home near the stables and it was seen to buy an elderly lady who

27:40 cooked and cleaned and sort of tended to the property.

27:44 And one night she was lying in bed and David came in nude with

27:51 a stocking over his head and attempted to rape her.

27:54 I believe he actually did rape her.

27:56 He did so. It was also during that same

28:00 sort of time frame was a bit of an exhibitionist.

28:03 He would flash and everything, people randomly.

28:07 So there's many things going on in that environment where they

28:10 were like we've had enough, you need to go mate.

28:12 You need to get out. So he did.

28:16 I don't actually know what he went to do.

28:19 I know he eventually became a motor mechanic, yes.

28:22 So I don't know whether at that point he went on to do the

28:25 training for that. To me, there were some years

28:27 there that aren't accounted. Because he did spend time in and

28:31 out of prison too, So whether or not he studied those things

28:34 whilst he was in jail, sure, maybe.

28:37 Oh, actually that would, that actually would make sense.

28:39 Yeah. Otherwise that would absolutely.

28:40 I feel like that's that that was where I was kind of landing with

28:42 it, that that's potentially where though that training came

28:45 in. Yeah.

28:45 And I feel like that's something that would have been part of

28:47 like the time he spent there of like, well, let's get you, you

28:50 know, on a path, a trade or something that you can go and do

28:53 when you do exit. So he.

28:55 Wasn't actually jailed for that rape of the elderly lady.

28:57 He was jailed for petty theft, burglary and like physical

29:01 assault of somebody that was perpetrated during one of these

29:04 burglaries. Like an aggravated assault.

29:06 Yeah, he was around this time, like along this timeline, he

29:12 developed an absolute fetish. Mm hmm.

29:14 For pornography. He was addicted to sex.

29:18 Yes, his brother James now. This is so fucking fucked up.

29:24 Well, we can get probably deeper into it later too.

29:26 Yeah. Do you want to do it now?

29:29 We'll talk about it later, Yeah. But yeah, there's a lot, there's

29:33 a lot going on. He's he was absolutely depraved

29:38 in his sexual desires. It's probably a good way to put

29:42 it. Yeah.

29:44 In SO in the mid 1960s now David and Catherine reconnected.

29:51 Now during this time David had actually met and married a woman

29:58 by the name of I want to say it was AK name.

30:01 Yeah, I've got her name written down.

30:02 Actually, that was not until 1972.

30:04 Though that was in, it was in 72.

30:06 Yeah, sorry. So they met.

30:07 So her and Catherine and him sort of reconnect in 1919,

30:11 marrying her. That's right.

30:13 Yeah. And they do do some jail time.

30:15 Well, he does some jail time. She gets a caution.

30:17 So yeah, around this time she actually became pregnant to an

30:22 unknown man. Yeah, not David.

30:24 Not David, although they were back.

30:27 Seeing each other, seeing each other.

30:28 That's right. But this pregnancy wasn't to

30:30 David. They committed some burglaries

30:33 together. Quite a few.

30:35 A lot, yeah. They were caught, for one.

30:37 That's what David ended up going back to prison for.

30:40 Yeah. Catherine was actually spared

30:43 prison at that point because she was pregnant.

30:45 That's. She was heavily pregnant.

30:46 Yeah. She then had that baby.

30:49 And when David got out of prison, they reconnected again

30:53 and again, they, you know, continued the same burglaries,

31:00 etcetera. Exactly.

31:01 Yeah. Around that time.

31:03 So I think it was like so in the mid 19.

31:07 So it must be in early 1970 when David was released.

31:10 Yeah. Teamed up with Catherine, they

31:11 did more thefts, Yes. And that's when David went back

31:16 to jail. Yeah.

31:17 And Catherine too. She went back to jail for six.

31:20 She went to jail for six months, and then her child.

31:23 Yeah, and the child. Sorry.

31:24 Take sorry the child was taken off her.

31:26 Yeah, well, she went to this, went to prison for this six

31:28 months stint. Yeah, when she came out of

31:30 prison, she was looking for a job.

31:32 I think she. Well, the, I think the prisons

31:34 kind of like said, like let's get you on a path here, we've

31:37 got to get you. And they, because at this time

31:39 the courts were sort of saying you cannot spend time with David

31:43 like they were, you know, this is not good.

31:46 So they were encouraging her to not have any contact, I think.

31:50 Catherine also said that there was a particular officer or a

31:55 prison guard, prison officer who was really trying to mentor her

31:59 and said to her, don't go there. Stay away from him.

32:04 He's leading you down a bad path.

32:06 Yeah. And she is the one, I think, who

32:08 helped Catherine get the job after she was released from

32:11 prison with the McLaughlin family.

32:13 Yes. So she was able to get a job as

32:14 a nanny and a housekeeper with this family.

32:17 They were a massive family. I, I can't remember how many

32:20 kids they had in this family, but it was a lot.

32:22 Good Catholic family. Good Catholic family.

32:24 Yeah. She became pregnant to one of

32:26 the sons in this family. So an adult son, like, they were

32:29 a similar age, 21 at the time. Donald McLaughlin, his name was.

32:34 And then because she was pregnant, they were actually

32:36 allowed to marry. And they married on her 21st

32:39 birthday in 1972. So they would go on to have

32:43 seven children. Yep, this one isn't this

32:48 horrific. See, this is just adds more to

32:50 the tragedy of this. Woman's life absolutely so yeah,

32:53 this they were having it was like a party at their house.

32:56 They had their first child. It was seven months old at this

32:58 stage. Donnie Junior and Little Donnie

33:01 was crawling around the on the on the ground out on the

33:05 driveway of the home and somehow unfortunately someone has driven

33:10 a car into the driveway not thinking that you would have a 7

33:13 month old baby on the driveway and unfortunately he was run

33:18 over and killed. And Catherine saw it happen.

33:21 I mean, it is my worst fit that that was, no.

33:24 Absolutely awful. Awful.

33:25 So look, why that baby was there and left there, I don't know.

33:31 But it's just tragic. Just awful.

33:34 So but yeah, had I sort of when I first heard that, I was like,

33:38 oh, God, that'll be like, you know, you don't have any more

33:40 kids because she'll be in such a state.

33:44 Went on to have six more kids. Like wow, holy cow.

33:47 A lot it was. I mean, again, good Catholic

33:51 family. But that mean total and she has

33:54 8 pregnancies. That's right.

33:55 So seven children in that home with her and Donald we so she'll

34:00 have she's got her son from the previous relationship that we

34:03 don't know who father was, but he's Donald obviously took him

34:05 on yes, of as his own basically sort of and brought him into the

34:09 the family home. You don't sort of hear too much

34:11 about that being an issue. I believe, I believe the

34:15 McLaughlin family were quite a respectable family.

34:18 Like in the community, I think they were very well regarded.

34:22 And yeah, they were a big family and so everyone kind of knew

34:26 them. And yeah, but Catherine, I feel

34:28 like this could have been such a clean break into a much more

34:33 possible positive life. Yeah, I think that's where she

34:36 was headed. That's what I think.

34:38 But I'm like, do you think that because Donny Junior, Donald

34:41 Junior was killed in front of her that that kind of switched

34:45 something again? I don't know.

34:46 I. Don't know.

34:47 I don't think so because she went on to then have the six

34:49 more children, but I feel like actually, unfortunately life

34:53 took a path later on for them after having all six children.

34:57 There was some talk around like that.

34:58 She never really maternally sort of cared for those children.

35:03 Naturally, we actually know that as a fact, yes, don't we?

35:07 We do, but also then Donald has an accident and injuries himself

35:13 where he can't work, so the income stops.

35:17 And so she's there with six children plus his father.

35:21 I believe he fell I'll So she's at home with six, seven children

35:27 and looking after an injured husband, disabled husband and

35:31 and father-in-law who's also unwell.

35:34 Yeah, in the home. So that's actually for anybody

35:37 to take on move. Houses into council housing.

35:39 Yes, they had no income. They.

35:41 Had no income, so they couldn't afford to stay where they were.

35:44 Yeah, they went into government housing, which I think was not

35:51 ideal. And it also then led to, I don't

35:57 know, I just the way I think about it, you know, if you put

36:01 yourself in Catherine's shoes, they're right.

36:04 Yeah. You're in a pretty shit

36:07 situation. You know, there's, there's, you

36:09 don't really have much going for your life even.

36:11 If you are the world's greatest mother, you know, nurse trained

36:16 nurse, you know to to manage that.

36:18 That's a fuck load for anyone to take on.

36:21 That's right, I. Not that I'm trying to defend

36:23 this woman though. No, no, not at all.

36:26 But we're just trying to understand.

36:27 Understand it? Yeah.

36:28 Not that there's a lot to understand, especially as things

36:31 come out, but Catherine was also not good at keeping the house.

36:36 I mean. Yeah, well, she hadn't been

36:38 raised to know that stuff either.

36:39 I mean, when you think about it. No, yeah, but.

36:42 And I guess she's got six kids, She's got a husband and her

36:45 father-in-law who she's trying to care for.

36:47 But apparently their house was really unkempt as well.

36:50 Yeah. And I guess.

36:51 Kids were wild, you know, You know, those families that you

36:57 just look and you're like, oh, yeah, that's, that's one of

36:59 them. Yeah, I can imagine that was

37:01 that they were that. With that many kids, it's like

37:03 they just, I mean, I know how bad it is with two, how much

37:05 they rile each other up. I can't imagine that many riling

37:08 each other up. Holy fuck.

37:09 You'd have to just kind of be like, yeah, all.

37:11 Right. You'd go to you.

37:12 Yeah. So I guess.

37:14 Running alongside this, this of like what Catherine's last

37:16 looking like. Then we've got David on the

37:19 other side, who also married in 1972.

37:21 Yeah, so that was a woman named Kerry.

37:23 I did write her name down. South and again he's, he was

37:26 living a very normal life. I mean, it was quite and the

37:31 marriage was good. They had a daughter, yeah, and

37:34 everything was going well. Unfortunately, though, David did

37:38 have an accident as well at work and he hit his head really

37:41 severely. And I mean, head injuries just

37:45 aren't good. I mean, you put it in the

37:47 context of who he was anyway. Hadn't had to add a severe head

37:52 injury to that. Who the fuck?

37:54 Which Kerry has said it changed him.

37:57 Yeah. Although, I mean, I'm, I'm sure

37:59 a lot of these behaviours were already there.

38:01 I think from what we know of his childhood and what definitely.

38:03 And the fact that he raped a woman, you know, an elderly

38:05 woman at the age of 15 and all these things, you kind of go,

38:07 well, it was there. He was almost.

38:10 Yeah, I feel like he was almost faking it.

38:12 And the head injury, like, you know, faking it to be, you know,

38:15 normal running this, having this normal house and have and life.

38:18 But they're the head injury just kind of went off.

38:20 Like, I'm not going to put the mask up anymore and be who I am.

38:23 I don't know. That's just my take.

38:24 But yeah. So she ended the marriage in 82

38:30 because it was not a good household.

38:32 He was abusive. She said his sex drive got

38:35 really uncontrollable. And he was having multiple

38:38 affairs he wanted. He was wanting sex like six to

38:41 seven times a day. Yeah, and then, well, the the

38:43 clincher for her was when he brought home his 16 year old

38:46 girlfriend. Yeah, to the house.

38:48 Yeah, she was. She moved him in.

38:49 He moved. He.

38:50 Moved her in. Yeah.

38:51 She was like this 16 year old was like his sex.

38:54 Well, there was like a three bedroom home.

38:56 And so he moved her into I know, or did he move the daughter out

38:58 of her room? And that's right, he moved the

38:59 daughter out of his her room into with her with his wife.

39:02 And so they they were sharing a room so that he could share the

39:05 room with his 16 year old girlfriend.

39:06 Bit like at that. What at that point, wouldn't you

39:09 be like, yeah, Nah, David, you're not actually doing that.

39:12 Yeah, I mean, I guess, I guess it's a sign of the times to his,

39:14 you know, you're looking, you know, early 80s, late 70s, I

39:17 mean, and what that looked like. I can't kind of judge that in

39:21 that sense. I don't know.

39:22 I yeah, I feel for massively for Kerry.

39:25 I mean like and the 16 year old. Oh God, yeah.

39:28 Which? Funnily enough, that didn't last

39:30 that long. But Kerry went, she was out and

39:32 took the daughter and that was that.

39:33 Well, they were over that, but yeah, so he's the 16 year old

39:36 eventually moves out, but. And this is where Catherine and

39:40 him come back together again. So this was around 1983 now.

39:46 So David and Kerry had split up, but Catherine was still with

39:50 Donald, Yes. And so that bit, Catherine and

39:53 David embarked on an affair. For two.

39:54 Years. They for a couple of years, then

39:57 this is the bit that I absolutely cannot come out.

40:00 Yeah, in 1985, Catherine literally left.

40:06 Donald with his with the 6-7 kids at home.

40:12 Sorry. The child that is not Donald.

40:13 Donald. Yep, Yep.

40:15 Her youngest child at the time was 3 and she just walked out

40:19 and left them all there. Now with a physically disabled

40:22 husband who was, I believe he was quite incapacitated, like he

40:26 couldn't do a lot. Back injury.

40:28 It was a back injury. The way that Donald found out

40:33 that Catherine and David were back together and having this

40:36 affair, right? So not long after her last

40:39 pregnancy, she decided to have a hysterectomy.

40:43 She didn't want any more kids. She was, I mean, she shouldn't

40:45 have probably had the one she did.

40:46 But anyway, so not long after she'd had her last baby, she

40:51 went back into hospital to have this hysterectomy, and Donald

40:54 decided unannounced to go and visit her one night.

40:59 When he got there, David was sitting next to Catherine's bed,

41:02 holding her hand and stroking her hand.

41:05 And he was like, Oh my God, you know, I'm like, I'm a fool.

41:09 I didn't see this. I didn't know this was going on.

41:13 Then after that, it was like literally 2 years later that

41:17 Catherine just walked out on everyone Oh my God and left them

41:21 with Donald. Yeah.

41:23 It just, it blows my mind. It totally blows my mind even

41:27 like not she wasn't that maternal, had that much maternal

41:29 instinct. But how do you just walk out?

41:32 I don't know. How you would I honestly don't

41:35 know how you would. I really don't.

41:37 No, it's it's it just goes to show she didn't have any

41:40 maternal instinct or or her drive for David.

41:43 This is so much stronger than that which regardless it's a

41:46 fucked up. You could leave your husband but

41:49 still keep in contact with your children for sure.

41:52 Like she chose so extreme of like, no, I don't want any of

41:56 that now, like that whole life that I had.

41:58 That's right. I want David, and that's.

42:00 It we're going to get a little bit more later on in this story

42:03 into her kids coming back into this because I just think that's

42:07 terrible as well. But we'll talk about that in a

42:09 second. But.

42:09 We're getting to James a little bit here.

42:11 I guess so too. So in this time where

42:14 Catherine's still living with Donald, they're still together

42:16 technically and David is on his own living in in his house.

42:22 His younger brother James was. He'd been in prison mm hmm for

42:27 unfortunately sexually assaulting his six year old

42:31 niece 6. Month.

42:33 I've heard six months and then everywhere else I saw was six

42:36 years old. OK, so I I was gonna go with six

42:39 years because I saw that more times than the six.

42:41 Months, but also it makes more sense to me that it's six years

42:44 because of what he said. About that's why I went that

42:47 way, but there was definitely places where I heard six months.

42:49 Same. Anyway, I'm not ruling out

42:50 either. Six years or six months, but

42:52 anyway and unfortunately. I will just say either I would

42:55 believe either and which is really fucked up.

42:59 Yeah, especially even when he's. Oh God, we'll get there anyway.

43:02 Yeah, he sexually assaulted his six month or month year old

43:07 niece. Now, as we just said what he

43:09 said, he he said that you just don't know what they do to you

43:15 or how they no. He said what she led me on.

43:19 She led. He was inferring that she would.

43:21 She let him on. He said that.

43:23 He actually said she, she led me on.

43:25 She you don't know what she. What they're capable?

43:28 Of what she's capable, that's what it was.

43:29 Yeah, I think, yeah, You don't know what they're capable of.

43:33 Six months, definitely. Six years, definitely not able

43:39 to do that. Sorry, what?

43:42 It's so like this whole you fucked up, this whole family.

43:45 I mean, I'm pretty sure James was abused as well as a child.

43:50 So it's just that. And then continue to be cool,

43:52 right? And continue to be.

43:53 Yeah. Because what happened was when

43:56 he moved in with David. Because he came out of jail and

44:01 had to have somewhere to go. Yeah, like where?

44:03 So he did. He asked David and said because

44:05 you've got, you know, like I have family to vouch for you to

44:07 come out of in prison that he had to have.

44:08 Somewhere David's the right person to vouch for you, but I

44:11 didn't. Want to even.

44:12 He really didn't want anything to do with it, but he ended up

44:14 sort of. Saying yeah.

44:15 Folding and saying, all right, well come live with me.

44:17 James says that when he lived with David then David's sexual

44:22 appetite was voracious and if he couldn't have sex multiple times

44:26 a day, he would try and get it from anywhere.

44:30 And on this particular, there was a particular incident where

44:34 he couldn't find a woman to have sex with.

44:37 And he attempted this many, many times, like went to him and said

44:42 to James, I can't. I need to have sex.

44:44 I need to have sex. Can I have sex with you?

44:47 To which James consistently said no, not going to happen, mate.

44:52 That's no Oh. That night, Dave so James said

44:58 that he felt as though he'd convinced David that absolutely

45:03 they were not going to be having sex.

45:04 That was not going to happen. So James said he went to bed

45:08 that night thinking, OK, well, I've convinced him.

45:10 He's kind of backed off a bit. James woke up to David raping

45:15 him. I I can't on so, so many levels

45:24 with that. Yeah, that's beyond, beyond like

45:30 can't comprehend that. James continued living there

45:35 though, and to me, that's. Not that gives you a bit of an

45:39 idea though of the normalizing. Of these behaviours.

45:42 Definitely within that family. The other thing I find so

45:46 interesting is that even at that point that he was raped by

45:50 David, he had never had a sexual encounter with a woman.

45:57 So he obviously perpetrated acts on his younger niece, but he'd

46:03 never actually had consensual sex with a woman.

46:07 So for his 21st birthday, David gave James Catherine to have sex

46:17 with and David sat there and watched.

46:20 That was his gift, for that was. His gift for his 21st birthday?

46:24 Catherine went along with it. Too.

46:26 Well, she, Catherine, would do literally whatever David wanted.

46:31 Yeah, yeah. So James also said too that

46:36 apparently David would inject himself with something in the

46:40 his penis. Yeah.

46:41 So what he said was in order because he he, all he wanted was

46:45 he wanted that physical penetration.

46:48 He wanted physical sex. So he would actually inject an

46:53 anesthetic into his penis, yes, So that he wouldn't feel.

47:00 So basically so that he wouldn't ejaculate, yes.

47:05 So he could have sex that that much.

47:07 So it wasn't like, it wasn't like.

47:10 Yeah, it numbed him so that he wouldn't get to the point of

47:13 finishing. Yes, but he wanted the actual

47:20 act of sex like it. To me, that doesn't really

47:23 compute. Well, it makes me go because I

47:26 mean, the fact of the matter is rape and things like, which is

47:28 what we sort of get to with all this in that rape is not about

47:32 sexual pleasure. No, it's about control.

47:36 And I think that's more what he would that by injecting himself

47:39 with that numbing stuff, he had control of himself.

47:42 And that's you're so right. I think it's all just come

47:45 straight back to that. It's this is all about control

47:48 and a situation. Would you go back to his

47:51 childhood and he had never had any control.

47:53 Now he's got control of it all. He can control himself.

47:56 He control the person. He's like got in that position

47:59 that yeah, I think that's psychologically that's where

48:03 this is all coming from. Not that I'm.

48:06 Yeah. No, I think, I think you've

48:08 absolutely hit the nail on the head there.

48:11 Catherine and David were never legally married, but Catherine

48:15 took the Bernie surname by deed poll.

48:18 Yeah, so there. And around that time they moved

48:22 into Three Morehouse St. in Willoughby, which is a working

48:26 class suburb in Fremantle. It's, you know, it was quite, it

48:30 was a working class suburb. So the houses were quite run

48:34 down. Generally speaking, there were a

48:37 lot of blue collar workers. It was kind of on the fringe at

48:41 the time, although, you know, things have sort of expanded

48:44 beyond that now. The city limits have sort of

48:46 expanded on that now. But it was a cheaper place to

48:48 live and it was where they could essentially afford.

48:51 There was a lot of drug use in that house and.

48:54 They would sell drugs. They.

48:56 Yeah. They would sell drugs, they

48:57 would take drugs. They would.

48:58 They were really sort of heavily involved in that scene.

49:02 What are you doing over there? Dropping.

49:03 Pens I haven't, they haven't flicking my pen at you know, now

49:06 I've broken it and. Oh no, that's so annoying.

49:09 So annoying. So around this time David got a

49:13 job, so he'd had this injury, right?

49:15 So it meant that he couldn't really be a motor mechanic and

49:18 be bending over cars and all of that sort of stuff.

49:20 I think. I'm not really sure the exact

49:23 extent of why that was, but yeah.

49:25 He ended up getting a job selling car parts at a wreckers

49:28 yard. It was like a 4 minute drive

49:30 from from their house. Yeah.

49:31 He would also buy parts and keep them at the house and sell them

49:35 privately. Yeah, to probably extra money.

49:37 He probably. Not legal.

49:38 What he was doing. I'm there.

49:39 No. And I'm assuming he didn't buy

49:41 parts to sell. He probably stole them.

49:43 Stole them, yeah, but anyway. Yeah, well known to police, we

49:46 should say like. He was well known to police, but

49:48 I find it really interesting because his boss at that

49:51 wreckers yard said that he was like trustworthy.

49:53 He was really intelligent. He was happy go lucky.

49:57 I'm like, what? Yeah.

49:58 A bit of a personality shift indeed.

50:00 Yeah. He was really reliable.

50:01 Like he was at work when he needed to be at work and he

50:04 worked. He did what he needed to do.

50:06 Yeah. Well, like that's almost at odds

50:09 with what we've previously having with him.

50:12 Two different lives within one. Isn't it?

50:15 Yes. It's absolutely crazy.

50:17 Yeah. When they lived, when they first

50:19 moved into the street and into the house in Morehouse St. the

50:24 neighbors said that they kind of kept to themselves.

50:26 They were very, you know, they'd say hi and that was kind of it.

50:29 They were very quiet, but they did notice that a lot of people

50:34 would come and go from the home. This is how the drug sort of

50:37 stuff came in. We know that at the time, both

50:41 David and Catherine were smoking cannabis, taking heroin and

50:45 other prescription drugs that they could get their hands on.

50:48 So we're sort of really deep into that scene.

50:50 Yeah. Yeah.

50:53 So David also, when they lived in this house, he actually did a

50:58 couple of stints in prison for different theft charges.

51:02 Yeah, and he around this time started having these fantasies

51:08 of rape and murder, and he disclosed this to Catherine like

51:12 it was nothing. Yeah, said to her.

51:13 Like, I've just. I always thought that, you know,

51:15 raping and murdering someone would be a really fun thing to

51:17 do. Yeah, yeah.

51:19 Catherine, Catherine was actually a willing participant

51:22 in that. So he's disclosed into that.

51:24 Yeah, let's let's sort of see. What we can do, they did

51:27 research it. They, they, they put, they got

51:29 books, you know, of how to, you know, perform the perfect murder

51:34 and all these sorts of things. They they fully, I mean, this is

51:36 where we go back to that whole sense of like Peter David wasn't

51:40 a a silly person. He was very intelligent.

51:44 So he would read up on how to you.

51:46 Know commit the perfect the. Perfect crime, like I mean.

51:49 Crazy stuff, crazy they researched like even, you know,

51:52 have like blood typing and all of that sort of stuff because we

51:56 didn't really, I mean, back in the 80s didn't have the DNA.

52:00 Sort of. Any sort of data about that or

52:03 books about that? Probably no.

52:05 But he's looked up like blood groups and how that gets left

52:07 behind, what to do, where to place people, what's the

52:12 likelihood of. And he even researched like

52:14 timings of things. And so, yeah, it was very much

52:19 yeah, planned. And they they did test out a few

52:22 things about how to attract someone, to be able to kidnap

52:26 them, to bring them into this. They attempted one time where it

52:32 didn't work and so they worked out that it was best for them to

52:35 do it together because that someone would feel more

52:38 comfortable if there was the female there with.

52:41 You know what? I totally get that.

52:43 Uh huh. Like if a man approached you in

52:45 a car as a woman, if a man approached you in a car, you

52:48 would fucking run. But if it was a man and a woman,

52:52 you may give it a SEC. You know, you may be like, OK,

52:56 there's a woman in the car. Yeah, you know, they're genuine.

52:59 They're fine. They're a couple.

53:02 It makes the man seem safer, for sure.

53:04 Yeah. Because you know what?

53:07 By and large, it's not women who do these things, who perpetrate

53:11 violence. Who?

53:12 But in this particular instance, oh, my goodness.

53:16 Were these poor victims just susceptible?

53:21 It's just horrific. Yeah.

53:23 So as we said at the start of the episode, this all happened

53:25 over A5 week period and it was escalating.

53:29 Oh, big time. So the first victim was a girl

53:36 by the name of Mary Nielsen. This happened in September of

53:41 19. Sorry.

53:42 Yeah, in the September of 1986. Yes.

53:46 David placed an advertisement. In October, it was actually.

53:49 Yeah, the the murder was in October, but yeah, just the

53:51 month before, because they were they were trying to figure out

53:54 the best way to lure victims, right?

53:55 Yes. So in the September, David

53:57 placed an ad in the local paper to lure potential victims.

54:01 That's right, the advertisement said.

54:03 Urgent Looking for a lonely. Person urgent, I mean.

54:06 Prefer prefer female 18 to 24 years share single room flat

54:11 now. OK, if he was trying to lure

54:14 someone there are so many things wrong with that ad.

54:17 With that is an 18 to 24 year old lonely woman going to want

54:21 to share a single room flat with a bloke?

54:23 Nope, no. Surprisingly, I didn't get any

54:28 responses to that ad, no. Shit, no shit.

54:33 So basically, Mary was 22 at the time, and she went to the spare

54:40 car, yard parts where David worked.

54:43 Yeah, and she was looking for tires for her car.

54:45 Now she was absolutely strapped for cash, I think.

54:48 She was a student. She was studying psychology at

54:51 the University of WA Okay. She was working part time in a

54:53 deli. Yeah.

54:55 So she, she was, yeah, a young person trying to make it, make

54:59 ends meet in terms of doing a study, etcetera.

55:01 So yeah, if she can get some cheap tires, then that's what

55:04 she needed to get for a car to get around and get to work, get

55:07 to uni, all those things. So yeah.

55:09 So she went there, but David was like, you know what?

55:11 I've actually got some tires at my house.

55:13 Come over. They've got much better tread

55:15 than these, you know. Give them to you for a

55:17 discounted price can. Do much better for you of.

55:19 Course you're gonna do. That.

55:21 Oh my God, yeah. Anyone would, especially for

55:25 Mary in that situation. On the 6th of October in 1986,

55:31 Mary arrived at 3 Morehouse St. She was apprehended.

55:39 Is that the right word? She was taken, restrained.

55:43 She was chained to a bed. Inside.

55:46 David raped her. Well, Catherine.

55:49 Catherine watched David expressed a desire to kill her.

55:55 Yeah, he sort of said to Catherine.

55:57 Well, you know, she's, she knows who we are.

55:58 We can't just let her go like. Yeah, duh, duh.

56:02 Catherine went along with it. Yeah.

56:05 Now they had actually already researched though, if they were

56:08 going to go down this path, what they would then do with the

56:11 bodies or how they would get rid of these women.

56:14 They chose the Glen Eagle State Forest, which is 50 KS from

56:19 where they lived, as a place to take these bodies and dispose of

56:23 them. They actually took her down

56:26 there, took Mary down there alive.

56:29 David raped her again in the forest.

56:32 She begged for mercy. David strangled her with a nylon

56:35 rope. After she was deceased, she was

56:41 stabbed. Yeah, her body was mutilated.

56:45 Now I don't actually know whether she was then raped post

56:49 mortem or not. Well, he did say that he stabbed

56:52 her though, because he read somewhere that that would speed

56:56 up the decomposition process. He read it somewhere in a book.

57:02 He said, yeah, well, we've done so much research, so yeah, yeah,

57:06 yeah. They buried her in a really

57:08 shallow grave, which, yeah. And the interesting thing is,

57:13 with all of these victims by one, they were buried naked.

57:18 Yeah. Let's hold on to that.

57:21 Yeah, yeah. Murder #2 was Susanna candy.

57:25 She was 15 years old. It just gets worse.

57:30 Doesn't it? It absolutely does.

57:31 She was actually hitchhiking along the Sterling Highway in

57:34 Clermont. We know that so well from the

57:37 Clermont murders. Yeah.

57:40 This was two weeks after the murder of Mary.

57:43 Now she was described as a very smart, pleasant, straight A

57:49 student. She attended Hollywood High

57:50 School. She was the daughter of a an

57:54 ophthalmic surgeon, so he was I think the top ophthalmologist

58:01 in. Perth.

58:02 Perth at the time and they had, oh, I can't remember how many

58:06 kids I had. They had maybe they had four

58:08 kids I think. And she decided to get a job at

58:12 the local restaurant and she wanted a little bit of

58:15 independence, a little bit of her own money.

58:17 I can totally understand that. At 15 I was exactly the same.

58:22 Her dad wasn't all that comfortable with her having a

58:25 job and and being out and about. He just felt like it probably

58:29 wasn't something a 15 year old girl should do.

58:31 So he would actually walk from their house to the restaurant

58:34 every night that she worked and they would walk home together.

58:38 On this particular night, which was the 20th of October in 1986,

58:42 her dad had another engagement, so he didn't come and pick her

58:46 up. And as she was walking home from

58:48 work, couple stopped. That couple happened to be David

58:54 and Catherine Burnie. And because Catherine was in the

58:58 car, I think she felt comfortable enough to be like,

59:02 oh, yes, thank you. That'd be a really, really nice

59:05 thing. If you can give me a lift home.

59:07 And Catherine and David had discussed this sort of thing of

59:10 like when they would pick up girls like this of if they, if

59:13 one of them felt that this was someone that they would like to

59:15 have sex with and take home and do this, they had code word.

59:21 And so the, the idea was that one of them would say, yeah, OK,

59:24 I'm keen for this one. So to let the other one know

59:26 that I'm up for this with this one, they would say, oh, David,

59:30 I've got the munchies. And Dave would respond with,

59:34 yeah, me too, I've got the munchies.

59:36 So they knew that that was the one that they would then.

59:39 Take. Yeah, gross.

59:42 They did that with Susanna? Yeah, they took her to Morehouse

59:45 St., tied her to a bed, repeatedly raped her.

59:50 She was day. Yes, this is the thing.

59:53 So this is where some of the escalation has started to

59:55 happen, right? Yeah.

59:56 So they with Mary, they raped her and murdered her in the same

1:00:05 day. Yeah.

1:00:07 With Susanna they kept her for days and raped her like multiple

1:00:12 multiple times a day. They forced her to write a

1:00:16 letter to her parents saying that she was OK and that she

1:00:19 just needed some time away, needed some space.

1:00:21 A 15 year old girl. They they said they didn't

1:00:23 believe it for a second. But unfortunately the police did

1:00:26 yes, which I just this that frustrates me need no end that

1:00:30 the parents like went to the police and said, you know, their

1:00:33 daughter was missing, but they'd received these letters and they

1:00:35 said that's not our daughter like she there's been no reason

1:00:38 for her to do that. And at 15?

1:00:40 There is no reason. That and yeah.

1:00:42 And the cops were like, oh, well, you know, well, she's

1:00:44 clearly OK because she's written letters.

1:00:46 And so, yeah, look, she's probably just, as she said,

1:00:48 needs some time and some space, but leave her to it.

1:00:51 She'll come home. Where is she?

1:00:52 Yeah, she's not with her friends.

1:00:54 She's not. She's not without our family.

1:00:56 She where is she? They knew this was so not in

1:00:59 character for her and the police would not have a bar of.

1:01:01 It. Yeah, That's fucked.

1:01:02 Yeah. It's so fucked up.

1:01:04 Yeah. Apparently they decided a few

1:01:08 days later that it was time for her to be murdered, and David

1:01:12 attempted to strangle her with a nylon rope again.

1:01:15 Yeah, but she became hysterical and really started to fight back

1:01:19 good fucking on her. But unfortunately, they just

1:01:23 then decided to shove some sleeping pills down her throat.

1:01:26 And once she was unconscious. Yeah, David said to Catherine.

1:01:30 Prove that you love me. So Catherine took the nylon

1:01:35 rope, Yeah, and strangled her to death.

1:01:38 They once again took her to the Glen Eagle site where they

1:01:42 buried Mary Nelson and also buried Candy Susanna Candy in

1:01:48 the same place, which is just just awful.

1:01:53 Yeah, just utterly awful. After they had killed her, they

1:01:58 actually posted another letter to her family.

1:02:01 So, you know, it looked like she was.

1:02:04 Still still missing, yeah, but still.

1:02:06 Missing. And so the police still, even

1:02:09 after a week or whatever it was, thought she was still a runaway.

1:02:14 Yeah, just. Horrific.

1:02:16 After the fact, well, this Catherine Bernie did say about

1:02:19 murdering Susanna that that she did it because I wanted to see

1:02:23 how strong I was within my inner self.

1:02:26 I didn't feel a thing. It was like I expected.

1:02:29 I was prepared to follow him to the end of the earth and do

1:02:32 anything to see that his desires were satisfied.

1:02:35 She was a female. Females hurt and destroy males.

1:02:41 Shit, shit. Holy.

1:02:43 Fuck yeah. She felt nothing.

1:02:46 Nothing. No, it was all about David.

1:02:49 It was just about meeting his needs.

1:02:51 And if his needs were met, then everything was fine.

1:02:54 Oh my God. The third murder was a different

1:03:01 sort of situation because of the victim who the victim ended up

1:03:04 being. So this occurred on the 1st of

1:03:06 November in 1986. The victim was Noeline

1:03:10 Patterson, who was 31 years of age at the time.

1:03:14 She was driving home when her car ran out of petrol and she

1:03:17 was sort of stranded on the side of the road.

1:03:19 Yeah. She was a very elegant,

1:03:22 attractive and accomplished woman.

1:03:25 She was a former flight attendant for Ansett Airlines,

1:03:27 which is no longer in existence. But then she was such a, she was

1:03:32 so good at her job that she was actually employed by Ellen

1:03:35 Bond's private airline for a while.

1:03:38 And so she was, you know, sort of in the elite sphere of her

1:03:41 career. Yeah, She worked at Nedlands

1:03:44 Golf Club. She, she just was one of those

1:03:47 people who she was in these elite circles and providing

1:03:51 service in that sort of respect. So you can imagine the type of

1:03:54 person that she was. Yes, she was very well groomed,

1:03:57 very well spoken, very accomplished in her career.

1:04:00 And I think being a flight attendant, you're trained to, to

1:04:04 help people feel comfortable in what sometimes could feel like a

1:04:08 scary situation. Yeah, hit some turbulence.

1:04:11 You know, how to make the, you know, your customers feel at

1:04:14 ease. You know, that's, I think as a

1:04:17 flight attendant, that's really a major part of your job is

1:04:19 making sure everyone feels at ease and no one's panicking in

1:04:21 situations. And that's the thing.

1:04:22 They don't panic either. No.

1:04:24 So you're. She had a very calm personality

1:04:26 and a very calm demeanor. Yeah.

1:04:28 She lived with her mother in Bicton.

1:04:31 So when she's pulled over on the side of the road, having run out

1:04:34 of petrol, this couple who happened to be David and

1:04:36 Catherine Burnie. Yeah, they pulled over to help.

1:04:41 Now, she had actually previously had interaction with them before

1:04:45 she had hired them. Was it to paint her?

1:04:46 House, Yes, yes, so David would. Do odd jobs here and there.

1:04:50 And she had actually, he he painted her bathroom or

1:04:55 something like that in her home. So she recognized them, and they

1:05:00 offered to help her. So of course, she entered the

1:05:02 car willingly. And I was like, yeah,

1:05:04 absolutely. Thank you.

1:05:05 That's really great. I'm so glad I ran into someone I

1:05:07 know who can help me out when I'm stranded.

1:05:10 Yeah. The situation escalated as soon

1:05:13 as she got into the car. David held a knife to her

1:05:16 throat. They took her to Morehouse St.

1:05:19 immediately. Obviously, they both had the

1:05:21 munchies. Yeah.

1:05:23 She was chained to the bed, gagged.

1:05:25 Now she was raped repeatedly as well.

1:05:29 Just absolutely horrific. Again, she was held for several

1:05:34 days. Originally, the plan was to

1:05:36 murder her that same day, but David changed his mind.

1:05:39 Well. David developed quite the

1:05:41 affinity for her, Yeah, because she was well spoken and I think

1:05:45 because she had this calm demeanor, she tried a bit of a

1:05:48 reverse psychology type of situation on him.

1:05:51 She pretended to be into it. And sort of, you know that she

1:05:54 would. She was.

1:05:54 Willing participant in that sense of like.

1:05:57 You know that. She was stroking his ego in the

1:05:59 hope to soften him that. He might turn around and go,

1:06:01 hey, you know, well then we won't kill him and we'll let you

1:06:03 go. Like I can understand her

1:06:06 thinking and that that could work in your favour to be as

1:06:09 submissive as possible. And you know what?

1:06:12 I have a feeling, given the narcissist that David is, yeah,

1:06:17 that it would have worked had Catherine not been there.

1:06:19 Absolutely. I think unfortunately,

1:06:22 potentially, yeah. She it, it worked against her

1:06:25 because Catherine was there, yeah.

1:06:26 Agreed. Yeah, Yeah.

1:06:27 So Catherine became extremely jealous because so when they'd

1:06:33 done this in the past, David would rape the the women that

1:06:38 they'd kidnapped, but then he and Catherine would then have

1:06:41 sex as well because the thrill of that for both of them would

1:06:45 get them going. Right.

1:06:47 I just I have to say that not even thinking.

1:06:49 About it, I know you just like disassociate, yeah.

1:06:52 Yeah, what really pissed Catherine off was that David was

1:06:58 actually choosing to have sex with Noelene.

1:07:02 Yeah, as opposed to having sex with Catherine.

1:07:05 And she got really, really jealous.

1:07:07 And it got so much so that Catherine was saying, when are

1:07:10 we going to kill her? And David's like, oh, maybe

1:07:11 tomorrow, maybe tomorrow. For three days, this kind of

1:07:14 went on. Yeah.

1:07:15 Catherine held a knife to Nolline's throat in front of

1:07:17 David and said it's her. Own me held the knife.

1:07:20 To her own throat sorry and said it's either her or me.

1:07:23 Yeah, I'll kill myself right now in front of you or you kill her.

1:07:26 Like, which is it? To which David said, yeah, Well,

1:07:30 Nolan goes, he was as infatuated with Catherine.

1:07:34 I mean, in his mind, I can imagine him doing the whole,

1:07:36 like, Nolan's not exactly going to let me keep doing this with

1:07:39 other women, whereas Catherine will, if I Yeah, that works for

1:07:44 him. Catherine was complicit in all

1:07:46 of it. As in as in she'd already been

1:07:48 involved with all of this, where essentially Noeline was a victim

1:07:51 of theirs. Exactly.

1:07:52 So they did the same thing with her.

1:07:54 They forced sleeping tablets down her throat because, again,

1:07:57 she put up a fight. Yeah, he, David strangled her

1:08:01 while Catherine watched. They took her body to the Glen

1:08:05 Eagle Forest again and buried her with the other victims.

1:08:08 Now they're, well, interesting. Didn't go that smoothly.

1:08:11 No it didn't. No, just really quickly, what I

1:08:16 just wanted to say before I forget is that Kath, sorry that

1:08:20 Nolene was the only victim that they buried with her underpants

1:08:24 on. Yeah.

1:08:26 And I think that's because, David, it was almost like human

1:08:29 respect thing. Yeah.

1:08:32 In some way, yeah. In his own warped, weird way,

1:08:35 yeah. So.

1:08:38 But in put they put her in that shallow grave to bury her, and

1:08:43 it turned out she wasn't dead. Oh no, that was Denise.

1:08:45 Oh my God, we're only up to victim 3, aren't we?

1:08:48 No, no, this is how I'm like. No, we've got to be up to that

1:08:51 one already. I know.

1:08:52 There's more, there's more. Fuck me.

1:08:54 So sorry people don't want to confuse people.

1:08:56 No, it's all right. So now we're up to victim #4 now

1:08:58 Denise Brown. So this was.

1:09:00 I'm sorry, people, there's more. Yeah, so.

1:09:02 The day that they murdered Nolene, they picked up Denise.

1:09:06 Literally. And this is the thing, they were

1:09:08 not stopping. And this is where I'm saying

1:09:10 it's escalating. So they had a few days before

1:09:12 the victims at the start. Yeah.

1:09:14 Things were They were keeping them longer.

1:09:16 They were perpetrating more sexual violence upon these

1:09:20 women. Yeah.

1:09:21 And now they'd literally just buried one and the same day they

1:09:26 picked up the next. So Denise Brown was captured on

1:09:31 the 4th of November in 1986. Yeah, she was 21 years old, and

1:09:35 she was a computer operator. And she also did some

1:09:37 babysitting for neighbors and for family members.

1:09:41 Yes. She was sitting at a bus stop on

1:09:46 the Sterling Highway, and the Bernie saw her waiting for

1:09:51 their, for her boss. And she they stopped and asked

1:09:54 her if she wanted to leave home. Same thing.

1:09:57 She got in the car willingly, obviously.

1:09:59 I think, you know, Catherine being there again would have

1:10:02 made her feel comfortable enough to do that.

1:10:05 Yeah. After entering the car, David

1:10:07 held a knife to her throat. They've taken her to Morehouse

1:10:11 St. chained her to the bed again.

1:10:14 Over the next two days, they assaulted her, sexually

1:10:17 assaulted her, they forced her to phone her parents now.

1:10:22 So this was a little bit different in terms of.

1:10:25 They've gone from the letter writing to now phone calls.

1:10:28 Yeah. She did that.

1:10:31 I mean, she was under the threat of death.

1:10:33 She had a knife to her throat. She did say to them, was it her

1:10:37 that she said that she told them that she'd been, she was out

1:10:39 drinking with friends. Yeah, because she didn't drink.

1:10:42 So she was hoping her parents would twig and go to the fact

1:10:45 that there's something wrong that's not right.

1:10:47 Like she doesn't drink. But yeah, they didn't twig.

1:10:50 Unfortunately, no. Yeah, I guess you're 21.

1:10:53 You think as a parent you'd think, oh, OK, you've tried it.

1:10:56 You haven't given it a go. I mean, it's not outside the

1:10:58 realm of possibility, is it? No.

1:11:00 No. Anyway, they.

1:11:05 So it was it was this one was Catherine's choice to kill her

1:11:08 after the couple of days. Yeah, they actually took her to

1:11:11 the Nangara pine plantation to kill her.

1:11:14 Now she was alive when they got there.

1:11:17 Yeah. He they salted.

1:11:18 Her. Again.

1:11:19 Yeah. Catherine was holding a torch

1:11:22 while David was trying to slit her throat.

1:11:26 Yeah, he sort of stabbed her in the neck.

1:11:28 He stabbed her, but it was. Stabbed in the neck?

1:11:32 Yeah. He was convinced that she was

1:11:33 dead from that turns out. So while he was, he dug the hole

1:11:37 while he's thinking she's dead from the stabbing in the neck

1:11:41 and he moved the body into the grave and she sat up that just.

1:11:48 That happened twice. Yeah.

1:11:50 So after the first time she sat up, Yeah, Catherine went back to

1:11:55 the car to get a bigger knife. An axe after that was next.

1:11:59 So the next one was a bigger knife.

1:12:00 They then stabbed her in the chest.

1:12:02 How many things they have with? Them, I know, Christ.

1:12:04 They well, they had their kill kit.

1:12:06 Yeah, this is part of the research.

1:12:07 My God. David then stabbed her in the

1:12:10 chest. They then tried to, well,

1:12:12 they've then laid her down. Back again.

1:12:14 I think she's dead now. Like Nope.

1:12:17 Nope. She then sits up and gasps

1:12:20 again. Yeah, David then struck her with

1:12:22 the shovel that he'd used to to the grave and then used an axe

1:12:27 to actually bludgeon her to death.

1:12:28 Yeah. He struck her twice in the head

1:12:32 and then buried her. Oh God.

1:12:35 Awful. Just awful.

1:12:37 I mean horrendous. It was just horrendous.

1:12:42 Doesn't even begin, does. It no, and I mean.

1:12:47 Catherine found this murder particularly like she was quite

1:12:50 squeamish did. She I'm sorry.

1:12:53 Yep, sorry. I fucking don't care.

1:12:55 But but this is where the escalation was heading, right?

1:12:58 Yeah. This was 27 days of murder,

1:13:03 abduction, assault. Just absolute horrific, horrific

1:13:10 crime. Absolutely.

1:13:12 Now comes, I have to say, the woman who deserves so much

1:13:20 credit in this. I think without this woman can.

1:13:23 You. Imagine so many more women would

1:13:25 have died because even at this point with these three women,

1:13:29 four women, sorry, who have gone missing, yeah, the police have

1:13:32 not put together that there's a there are serial killers out

1:13:35 there. They don't.

1:13:36 They've got three independent people, but even with one of

1:13:40 them, they're like, are they missing?

1:13:41 You know, it wasn't like, no, they were putting all this stuff

1:13:43 and because they were. Writing letters or phony and

1:13:46 even though that had stopped because they're working so

1:13:48 quickly. That's right, it was like the

1:13:51 same day or next day. Yeah, it's not even like that

1:13:54 The two are being connected because there's like, Oh yeah,

1:13:55 well, she's gone missing, but she's sent you a letter to say

1:13:58 she'll be back soon, and she phoned you the other day like

1:14:00 it's fine. So I think I guess in some ways

1:14:03 as a police obviously like, oh, the MO's are a bit different if

1:14:06 there is a crime here even. Yeah, but they didn't even

1:14:08 really think there. Was no happening.

1:14:10 They would just thought these people were just needing more

1:14:12 time for themselves. What?

1:14:15 I think so. The final victim, Kate Moyer.

1:14:20 Yeah, amazing. She is such an incredible woman.

1:14:26 I just think I I am so in awe of everything she did.

1:14:32 Yeah. Because without her doing all of

1:14:34 those things and remembering all of the things that she did, I

1:14:38 don't think we'd be where we are today.

1:14:39 No, because possibly the police wouldn't have believed her

1:14:41 anyway. 100% So she did. She is.

1:14:44 She's incredible. Let's get into it.

1:14:45 Yes, she was drinking out, drinking with some friends.

1:14:49 She was quite intoxicated and she was hitchhiking to get home.

1:14:55 Yeah, after a night out with friends and obviously the

1:15:01 Bernie's have come across her. They picked her up.

1:15:04 This is on the 9th of November 1986.

1:15:06 Yeah, so this is only, again, four days after Denise Brown's

1:15:09 bludgeoning. Yeah.

1:15:11 You know, horrific, terrific death.

1:15:13 Yeah, mind you, sorry. In all of this, we should say

1:15:17 David with abducting all these women, which will come into play

1:15:20 here. He just continued going to work

1:15:22 every day. He never stopped.

1:15:23 He was never late for work. He was never, never changed his

1:15:26 demeanor at work. No one was sort of going to his

1:15:28 what's up with David lately? Or you know, or he's late again,

1:15:31 or you know, he's not showing up today.

1:15:33 He continued his life around all of these murders and rapes and

1:15:37 everything as if nothing else was going on.

1:15:40 Yep, that's that's pertinent to the story for sure.

1:15:44 Yeah, as soon as she gets in the car again, she's met with a

1:15:47 knife to her throat. They've taken her to the house

1:15:52 and they've forced her to write goodbye letters.

1:15:55 OK, now she observes everything in this house now.

1:16:01 David and Catherine were using code names.

1:16:03 They weren't calling each other by their given names.

1:16:05 They were calling each other by other names.

1:16:07 Must be in that book they read. Yeah, yes.

1:16:09 Don't let the victims know who you are.

1:16:12 It's in your face, but whatever. Yeah, what exactly?

1:16:15 So first thing that she does is she tries not to make herself a

1:16:21 victim, OK? She looks them in the eye.

1:16:25 She tries not to show that she's fearful.

1:16:27 Yeah, she actually befriends a little bit more.

1:16:30 Catherine, definitely. Which, you know, as we said,

1:16:34 Noelene's tact didn't really go her way because of Catherine

1:16:37 being there. That maybe that the fact that

1:16:40 Kate that she took the the tact of befriending Catherine was

1:16:44 maybe a better route. And I mean, how, how are you to

1:16:46 know that in this? I totally, I'm not trying to

1:16:49 victim blame here that she's got no anything like that, but but

1:16:51 yeah, this was a tact that maybe was a little bit more workable

1:16:55 in this scenario. Yeah, I mean, she wouldn't have

1:16:56 known. No, but she's just luckily

1:16:59 picked the right 1 I think. That's it.

1:17:00 She just happened. This is the way she went.

1:17:02 So I think because of this situation and as you were

1:17:06 saying, David was going off to work every day, so during the

1:17:09 day she had more time to chat to Catherine, get to know her time,

1:17:15 friend her a bit. God, whatever.

1:17:18 And really, I think the idea from Kate's perspective was that

1:17:22 psychologically, if you befriend someone, it makes it a little

1:17:25 bit harder for them to then hurt you or kill.

1:17:27 You, they did say to Kate that she said, they did say to her

1:17:30 that will only rape you if you are good, which we know is not

1:17:35 true. But I think Kate was kind of

1:17:37 hoping, well, you know, if we can just stick to that, that

1:17:39 would be great. That would, you know, be the the

1:17:42 the best case scenario in this because that's fucked up as it

1:17:45 is. But yeah.

1:17:47 Yeah, she notices quite a few things in her days there.

1:17:50 One of them was the fact that she could hear the Rocky movie

1:17:55 being played on the VCR. She could hear a certain

1:17:59 cassette tape that was being played over and over again.

1:18:02 Who was? It oh God, now you've got me

1:18:03 I'll. Have a look.

1:18:04 I think I have got it written down in my notes somewhere.

1:18:06 But there was a particular cassette, a song that kept

1:18:09 playing, right? Yeah.

1:18:10 She also noticed a pill bottle that had David's actual name on

1:18:16 it. So she remembered his real name.

1:18:18 Yeah. While she was while she was tied

1:18:22 or chained to the bed. Yeah.

1:18:24 She noticed that the window in the bedroom, there was like a 15

1:18:28 centimetre gap and it was never closed.

1:18:30 They never really closed that window.

1:18:33 So she was just kind of looking at her surroundings.

1:18:36 She'd also been like given like pen and paper obviously to write

1:18:39 letters to family that she used that the pen and drew pictures

1:18:43 and things on the wall just in case she didn't make.

1:18:46 Out of it, she also. They would say those and know

1:18:49 that she was there. That's what she was saying.

1:18:51 So she also drew pictures on paper and put them inside the

1:18:54 pillowcase. Yeah.

1:18:55 She, she wanted people to know that she'd been there.

1:18:58 Yeah. And this ended up being such a

1:19:01 brilliant, brilliant thing for her to do.

1:19:03 She also, they tried to give her sleeping pills because he would

1:19:07 handcuff himself but David to her in the bed and make her

1:19:10 sleep there next to him. And so but they would also give

1:19:14 her sleeping pills, but she wouldn't.

1:19:16 She what she would do is put it under her tongue kind of if she

1:19:18 swallowed it and then she'd spit it out and she hid them under

1:19:21 the under the mattress as well. So leaving again, more evidence

1:19:24 of herself being there. Yeah, yeah.

1:19:26 Incredibly, what a strong woman. She just never.

1:19:29 Went 17 years of age, and if we said that or not, I don't know.

1:19:32 Yeah, she was 17. I mean, that's insane to have

1:19:34 the forethought to do all these things.

1:19:36 And to not go into shock, yeah, like, you know, to be able to

1:19:39 have the presence of mind to do it.

1:19:41 What a such a strong, strong woman.

1:19:43 Totally. So she also kind of got a bit of

1:19:46 a feel for the routine of the of the day and the day and the fact

1:19:50 that David would go to work at a certain time and all of that

1:19:54 sort of stuff. Kate asked.

1:19:57 So this happened on the morning of the 10th of November.

1:20:00 Kate asked Catherine if she could go to the bathroom.

1:20:03 This forced Catherine to unchain her.

1:20:05 And while Kate was in the bathroom, there was a knock on

1:20:08 the door. Now, this particular person was

1:20:11 one of the Bernie's drug dealers.

1:20:12 Yeah. And so Catherine didn't want

1:20:15 this drug dealer to know that they had Kate in the house.

1:20:17 So she took Kate out of the bathroom and shoved her in the

1:20:21 bedroom. They didn't have time to chain

1:20:23 her up before running back to the front door to answer.

1:20:25 To the door to the drug dealer. Kate used this opportunity to

1:20:30 make a run for it. So she got herself somehow out

1:20:34 of this 15 centimeter gap in the window because it wouldn't go up

1:20:37 anymore. It's not like she could.

1:20:38 Open it all the way. She was half.

1:20:41 Naked wheezed through that so. I think she was just wearing a

1:20:43 bra and undies. I think so, yeah.

1:20:46 She. Ran.

1:20:47 She tried, I think, to. Knock on neighbors neighbors

1:20:50 doors. No one was home.

1:20:51 I mean, it was the middle of the day at this point.

1:20:54 Most people working, yeah. She ended up at a delicatessen,

1:20:56 and the owner of the business was actually standing at the

1:20:59 front of the of the business. She ran inside and screaming,

1:21:04 she's like, I've been raped, I've been raped, Help.

1:21:06 I need the police. Yeah.

1:21:08 She was so terrified that nobody would believe her.

1:21:13 The fact that that's even a consideration, I think that

1:21:15 wouldn't happen in this day and age, you know, fucking hope.

1:21:18 No, it wouldn't. It just you cannot tell.

1:21:21 No, it wouldn't happen. Yeah, no, I don't think we know

1:21:25 too much these days. Yeah, that's right.

1:21:27 So anyway, they, this, this shopkeeper has called the

1:21:31 police. The police have attended.

1:21:33 Now this gets me the the interview with the Sergeant who

1:21:37 did this. I actually really thought he was

1:21:40 great and I'm guessing this is just another sign of the times.

1:21:44 But what they did was they got her in the car.

1:21:47 They they said to her, do you think you know where the house

1:21:50 is? But even before that, oh, sorry.

1:21:51 It wasn't until it was particular Constable Laura

1:21:54 Hancock, yes, who got involved. It wasn't until she the the

1:21:57 female constable and spoke to her.

1:21:59 In a constable for like weeks. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:22:02 Isn't until she got involved that they actually believed her.

1:22:04 Yeah. Which I just, I really get

1:22:06 really annoyed with that. But yeah.

1:22:07 But then they decided to put her in the car, which, and again, it

1:22:10 wasn't until they were in the car and got to the address where

1:22:14 she really got really agitated and broke down.

1:22:17 Because I mean, how scary are you taking me back to where I've

1:22:20 just. Re traumatizing again, I don't

1:22:22 think that would happen. So she was because of how beside

1:22:27 herself she was when they reached there and that the

1:22:30 obvious trauma that she was displaying, it wasn't until then

1:22:35 the police went, I think there might be something in this.

1:22:39 What? Dicks, sorry.

1:22:42 Yeah, I think, but because she was able to give so much detail.

1:22:46 So we're talking that you know, the police.

1:22:48 So yeah, no one was home when the police then knocked on the

1:22:50 door. Catherine, I gotta wonder, like

1:22:52 what did Catherine do when she realized?

1:22:53 I think she went running and looking for.

1:22:55 Looking for it. She must have.

1:22:56 She must have. Yeah, yeah.

1:22:58 Because yeah, you know, an hour or. 2 Later she did herself.

1:23:00 Oh yeah, absolutely. But.

1:23:02 Would she? I don't know.

1:23:03 They're so weird. Like, well, apparently when the

1:23:05 police, when she came in, she was like, Oh yeah, yeah.

1:23:08 Like as in yeah, we're caught. Like as in.

1:23:10 Well, she was. Well, she she denied.

1:23:12 Everything deny it that initially she did deny it, but

1:23:15 that was until David came back but what the.

1:23:18 He told a different story of like that, yeah.

1:23:20 We'll get to it. But what the police found was

1:23:22 they found the VCR had Rocky, Rocky DVD, VHS in it.

1:23:28 Time travel. Yeah.

1:23:31 They found the cassette, which I can't remember what that was,

1:23:33 but that was in the cassette player.

1:23:35 They found the pieces of paper in the pillowcase, the drawings

1:23:38 on the wall, the tablets under the mattress.

1:23:40 They found the pill bottle that she described exactly where she

1:23:43 described it. So they knew she'd been there.

1:23:45 They knew she'd been held there. Yeah.

1:23:47 And they believed her story. Yeah.

1:23:51 So they then wait for David to get home and they arrest both

1:23:54 Catherine and David. And initially they they

1:23:59 interview them, right? Yeah.

1:24:00 They take them separately. Interview them separately.

1:24:03 Yeah. The way they conduct the

1:24:05 interview is they basically say to David, oh, we know.

1:24:11 We know everything. Well, first of all, because

1:24:12 yeah, he's denying denying it entirely.

1:24:14 And what he said was actually that that Kate was there

1:24:17 voluntarily for consensual sex. So he wasn't denying that she'd

1:24:20 been in the house and that all these things they found because

1:24:22 they did put it all to him going.

1:24:24 But she told us this and this is what we found and that.

1:24:26 So he's like, oh, yeah, yeah. Well, she was in the house.

1:24:28 We were having sex. She wanted it, you know.

1:24:32 So that's how he try and take tries to go that route.

1:24:34 And this goes on for so long. And the police were getting

1:24:37 really, really annoyed. They ended up trying to say what

1:24:40 they thought to themselves. They actually put together

1:24:42 themselves that kind of like, you know what, we've got a few

1:24:45 girls missing and, and this is kind of lining up.

1:24:48 They did thankfully use their brains at this point and put it

1:24:52 together to kind of go, let's try this guy's, you know, call

1:24:55 his bluff a bit. And what the cops did was they

1:24:57 went, you know what, what guys, we're over this.

1:25:00 We're not even going to do it. We're just going to go dig the

1:25:02 bodies up, which they just happened to say the right thing.

1:25:06 To which David went like they've already found those.

1:25:10 To which he answered, Well, there's four of them.

1:25:14 Which the cops were like, wait, what?

1:25:18 Hey, hang on, wait. Didn't know what they'd stumbled

1:25:20 across really, 'cause they were just really trying to stir him

1:25:24 up. They didn't know.

1:25:25 They didn't know how many. They didn't really know if it

1:25:28 was true that this would be this the guy.

1:25:31 I mean, God, yeah, just. Lucky.

1:25:32 I mean, they, they knew that Kate's story was probably true,

1:25:35 but they didn't know that he'd been involved in anything else.

1:25:38 But there was there was nothing they would suggest that he had

1:25:40 at that point. Other than the fact they're

1:25:41 going, we've got these other missing girls from the area, you

1:25:45 know, like what if this guy's, if this is his MO and he does

1:25:49 murder them? And like, that was all they were

1:25:50 kind of like going spitballing him.

1:25:52 What about this? That's all it came down to,

1:25:55 thankfully. And then he just dug his own

1:25:59 grave. In that he went, yeah, well,

1:26:00 there's four of them. They then pressed him on it a

1:26:03 bit more and he's like, I need to speak to Catherine.

1:26:05 Yeah. And they're like, yeah, Nah.

1:26:09 But they told Catherine, well, David's confessed everything.

1:26:11 So yeah, you might as well, you might as well let us know

1:26:14 exactly what happened. So yeah, they did.

1:26:16 They said where they had left the bodies.

1:26:20 Now, the police were able to then forensically match the tire

1:26:23 treads from their car to the tire treads that led to where

1:26:27 the graves were both in the in the forest and the plantation.

1:26:31 And so obviously that ties them to it as well.

1:26:36 There was soil evidence in the car.

1:26:37 So on the shovel that they'd left in the car and I believe on

1:26:41 the axe, there was some evidence like blood evidence.

1:26:44 Yeah, they so again we're talking pre DNA, but they were

1:26:47 able to do the ABO blood typing and figure out that, you know,

1:26:51 these matched they then obviously had most of a

1:26:56 confession as well. Yeah, to.

1:26:57 Go along. But.

1:26:58 So in that they, they Catherine went with them to the, the

1:27:02 gravesite there showing them where the bodies were in, you

1:27:04 know, in this, I guess, getting their statements and their

1:27:07 confessions and things like that.

1:27:08 And it was very interesting that when they spoke about and they

1:27:12 were digging up the bodies and things that when she sort of

1:27:15 indicated where Susanna's body was, Nollene, sorry, Nollene's

1:27:20 body was, she spat on her on the, on the grave, on the.

1:27:24 Grave. What a disgusting pig.

1:27:26 Shows her disdain for her like in that and.

1:27:29 You think I mean, obviously these she's not right, but you

1:27:35 know, you think you've been caught out.

1:27:37 You kind of got, you think she'd be hanging her head a bit, but

1:27:39 no, she's just got she's spat on the grave in front of the.

1:27:42 Police in front of the police. Investigating the murder of

1:27:45 these four women that she's perpetrated and rapes and the

1:27:49 brutality of it. Because there was no then I mean

1:27:51 no denying the fact that in this scenario I guess I mean yeah,

1:27:58 Catherine could have taken the tact of oh, David made me do it

1:28:01 right. That just threw that out the

1:28:03 water like to bet for her to stand there in those those grave

1:28:06 sites and spit on one of the women that they had done this to

1:28:10 it just proved that she was just as culpable as David in this.

1:28:14 There is no you know manipulation from him to do this

1:28:18 but to create this this is this is equally both of them not all

1:28:22 him and taking Catherine along for the ride or any of that and

1:28:26 they needed to be treated exactly the same way to me then

1:28:28 in the trial. No, you know more for him

1:28:32 because he committed all of it and she was just in a.

1:28:35 Long in a shit. Position and didn't get out of

1:28:38 it. Or if he was abusing her.

1:28:40 Yeah, no, go on. God no.

1:28:44 So they both plead guilty, which is something I suppose they

1:28:49 were. Sent.

1:28:50 They did say that too, even said David said at the time.

1:28:53 It's the least I could do for the family.

1:28:54 It's the least I could do. How about you don't murder and

1:28:57 rape? And that would be the least you

1:28:58 could do. Actually, I think, yeah, like,

1:29:00 not rape. Do that.

1:29:02 Rape women? Yeah.

1:29:02 Not kill them. I feel like that's your base.

1:29:06 Yeah, that's, that's, that's bare minimum.

1:29:07 Bare minimum. Sack of shit.

1:29:11 Such a sack of shit. They were both sentenced to life

1:29:13 imprisonment with a never to be released recommendation in

1:29:18 Perth. They have to give a minimum

1:29:19 sentence, a parole date though. Yeah, so they both did that.

1:29:24 It basically meant that with the minimum term they would have

1:29:27 been eligible eligible for parole in 2007.

1:29:32 The judge who was Olken Wallace, said that David Burney's prison

1:29:41 record was stamped with a never to be released.

1:29:44 So that meant when he was eligible for parole, they should

1:29:48 never actually consider it. So under the law, they had to

1:29:50 have a date, but it should never be considered for him.

1:29:53 Yes. He said.

1:29:55 Each of these horrible crimes were premeditated, planned and

1:29:59 carried out cruelly and relentlessly over a short

1:30:01 period. He should never be let out of

1:30:04 prison. Yeah, Catherine received the

1:30:07 exact same sentence. And as I said, her minimum term

1:30:10 would have led her made her eligible for parole in 2007.

1:30:14 Yes, in 2005, David dies in prison by suicide.

1:30:23 He was an incredibly violent inmate and he had assaulted

1:30:27 many, many of his fellow inmates.

1:30:31 The day after he committed suicide, he was due to go to

1:30:35 court for the assault of one of his.

1:30:38 Which he was, fellow inmates, he was a little man, little, little

1:30:41 like that. It really shows, I think, just

1:30:44 how vicious, vicious he was, how in desperate need he was for sex

1:30:52 because he how he had the ability to overpower these men

1:30:59 in prison just is unbelievable. But yeah, clearly.

1:31:04 I think so. He actually got himself into a

1:31:08 position so many times over the over the course of his stay in

1:31:12 prison, of his incarceration. He would go to the Infirmary

1:31:17 lot. So he'd get into fights, get

1:31:18 beaten up, have to go to the Infirmary.

1:31:21 When he was in the Infirmary, he was obviously in with other

1:31:24 inmates who were incapacitated for whatever reason, and he

1:31:27 would use that as an opportunity to overpower.

1:31:32 Just horrific. Absolutely horrific.

1:31:34 Awful. And so you know he's dead.

1:31:36 Cool. Good Oh by.

1:31:38 The way when they were first put in prison, Catherine and David,

1:31:41 obviously Catherine's gone to a women's prison, David's gone to

1:31:44 a men's prison. They exchanged 2600 letters

1:31:49 between them over a 10 year period.

1:31:52 Yeah, they were utterly obsessed with each other.

1:31:55 They were. And that's the only part of this

1:31:58 that I can and come it from the perspective of psychologically

1:32:01 those two needing each other so badly, it just it show that

1:32:05 actually shows me the smallest part of human nature in them.

1:32:09 Sorry, those 2600 letters were over 4 years, not ten years.

1:32:13 Sorry. Four years, yeah.

1:32:14 Yeah, but. Catherine decided at one point

1:32:18 to complete, so I think she was given the advice, yeah, if you

1:32:22 don't cut off contact with him, you are not getting parole.

1:32:25 Yes, yeah. That's not going to happen for

1:32:27 you. You need to not engage with him.

1:32:29 So she listened to that and she stopped writing back to him.

1:32:32 She did. She stopped writing letters to

1:32:34 him and started writing letters to her children that she this

1:32:36 is. What I was alluding to.

1:32:38 Before, yeah. You know, she'd abandoned her

1:32:40 kids, what, 20 years earlier? And now she needed their help

1:32:43 because she needed family to be released to if she was going to

1:32:47 be even considered for parole. She had to have someone who'd

1:32:50 stand there and say she would come and live with me.

1:32:53 Yeah. She wrote to her children.

1:32:55 Not one of them responded. Good on them, Fuck off.

1:32:58 Good on them. Fuck right off.

1:32:59 You abandoned them. Yeah, they owe you fucking

1:33:02 nothing. One of her children, because

1:33:04 she, she, he is related to her, has had his entire mouth of

1:33:08 teeth punched out of his face. Yep, not because of anything he

1:33:11 did. No.

1:33:12 Just because he, because he's related to her now.

1:33:15 Just now, David's only daughter, only biological daughter, has

1:33:20 come out. She's changed her name.

1:33:22 Yeah, she said. She will never, ever have

1:33:25 children because she will not continue that bloodline.

1:33:29 Yeah, how God like where? Rationally, like this is just

1:33:34 going to impact. Yeah.

1:33:36 Families forever. Not only the victims, I mean,

1:33:39 but I mean, Catherine's children were victims in this too.

1:33:41 David's daughter is a victim. In this too, absolutely they

1:33:44 didn't. Choose this.

1:33:45 Nope, they didn't choose to have these people as their parents.

1:33:49 The fact that she has come out and said that says to me she

1:33:52 wouldn't have a child who would be that because she would

1:33:56 actually. Give them a child.

1:33:57 But she's like I, I couldn't risk it.

1:33:59 She actually says I wouldn't. Risk it.

1:34:01 I I can understand it in that perspective.

1:34:03 But at the same time, I wish she'd just know that how she

1:34:06 would raise a child then is not how her dad was raised.

1:34:10 Yeah. And therefore, yeah, her child

1:34:13 would have more chances. Yeah.

1:34:15 Of not being that. Yeah, awful.

1:34:18 Now, after David committed suicide, which was on the 7th of

1:34:24 October in 2005, nobody ever claimed his body.

1:34:27 Nope. So he was buried in a pauper's

1:34:31 grave in an unmarked grave and given a pauper's funeral.

1:34:34 So no one actually went to his funeral.

1:34:35 No, no. Why would they?

1:34:37 Good fucking job. Yeah.

1:34:39 This case is so fucking disturbing it's not even funny.

1:34:43 Catherine is still in jail, obviously to this day, and she

1:34:46 has had parole hearing hearings, but she's actually never put

1:34:49 herself up for parole because she knows she's not going to get

1:34:51 it, really. But she's actually the prison

1:34:55 librarian just. What book she recommends to

1:35:00 people. How to perform the perfect

1:35:02 murder Oh. That's what I'm wondering.

1:35:03 She's like, oh, this one's a, this one's a page Turner.

1:35:08 Read this one thoroughly Oh man, because they I mean well they

1:35:12 did for a period of time they did I mean, and it's performed

1:35:15 the perfect murders. I guess in that sense that they

1:35:17 managed to do it four times. That wasn't till the fifth

1:35:20 attempt and it. Was just right and it was just

1:35:23 so lucky you know so Kate's impact is actually really far

1:35:28 reaching. Yeah.

1:35:30 For decades after this so when she was still a minor, maybe not

1:35:35 so much. But decades later she has come

1:35:37 out and she has actually changed the law in WA Yeah.

1:35:40 So she campaigned against these repeated parole reviews.

1:35:44 So in WA the law was that at the point where you become eligible

1:35:49 for parole you are entitled to a hearing.

1:35:51 In fact, you you have to have a hearing every every three years.

1:35:55 This was alongside the Grano Grano massacre as well the the

1:36:01 family of her. So it was with them that they

1:36:03 changed that law, yes. Yeah, so it's called Kate's Law.

1:36:06 In 2018, it was changed. And what it basically meant was

1:36:10 that parole reviews can be delayed for more than three

1:36:12 years. Yeah.

1:36:13 So where there's and? It's now six years instead of

1:36:16 three. Yeah.

1:36:18 Where there's situations like this where, you know, there's

1:36:22 very unlikely chance of rehabilitation and very unlikely

1:36:26 chance of parole, especially if the prisoners not putting

1:36:29 themselves up for parole, then it can be extended.

1:36:32 And what that means is that for the victims, it's less re

1:36:36 traumatizing because what Kate found was every three years, she

1:36:39 was petrified that Catherine was going to be let out.

1:36:44 She shouldn't. No one should have to endure

1:36:47 that. She's already been.

1:36:49 She's already had almost the worst thing ever happened to

1:36:53 her. And yet now she has to be aware

1:36:56 that, oh, God, that date's coming up again.

1:36:57 And oh, my God, what if she gets out?

1:36:59 You know, all of that. Yeah.

1:37:01 So good on her for advocating beyond what she did at the time.

1:37:06 She's, she's such an incredible woman.

1:37:08 She really is impressive. Wow.

1:37:11 To come out of it the other end and be able to put your feet in

1:37:14 front of 1 foot in front of the other, let alone do things like

1:37:16 change the law is. Incredible.

1:37:18 I think if it wasn't for Kate, there would have been untold

1:37:22 number of victims. I know that when the Claremont

1:37:27 killings happened, the Claremont serial killings happened.

1:37:33 Catherine was quoted as saying at the time that after the first

1:37:37 murder, she said, oh, that's a serial killer.

1:37:41 I can see it, Yeah. She's lived it.

1:37:44 She's lived it, she knows it. We need to listen to these

1:37:46 people. Yeah.

1:37:48 Yeah, man, which of the cops again with that one didn't put

1:37:51 it together for a very long time.

1:37:53 And it's like they didn't learn anything from this one then.

1:37:56 Yeah, I know it was 10 years and that's a significant amount of

1:37:59 time, I guess when you're looking at day-to-day policing.

1:38:03 But like if we don't learn things from situations like

1:38:07 this, then what? What?

1:38:08 What are we doing? Yeah, absolutely.

1:38:10 Yeah. You know, it's tragic enough

1:38:12 that these things happen. At least we need to take

1:38:14 something away from it. Yeah.

1:38:16 Yep. Change things, process things

1:38:18 differently, definitely look at things in a different way.

1:38:21 Yeah. And that just didn't happen.

1:38:23 No. And unfortunately, I think it

1:38:25 took the Claremont serial killings to happen for things to

1:38:28 actually change and that view to shift, Yes, in Perth in

1:38:31 particular. Yeah, yeah.

1:38:35 Oh God, that's just this one is a real it's, it's awful.

1:38:39 I just, it sat with me all week kind of going.

1:38:41 I just can't like to think there were 4 victims.

1:38:45 For me, it was the thing that really got me with this, the

1:38:49 four victims, absolutely and their deaths, absolutely.

1:38:53 What actually really got me was the sexual nature of these

1:38:57 crimes and the fact that, you know, we've started off with

1:39:01 David and his siblings growing up in a family where incest was

1:39:07 occurring, moving that then through to him, really starting

1:39:11 his sexual relationship with Catherine at a very, very young

1:39:16 age, moving that through to the addict he became, the sex addict

1:39:22 that he became. Yeah.

1:39:24 I just think how many points of intervention were there?

1:39:27 Where could we have done better as a society?

1:39:30 Where could there have been earlier interventions and where

1:39:33 could this have shifted? Where could this have changed?

1:39:35 And would that happen today? Well.

1:39:40 There have been others similar. I mean, yeah, so it's crazy.

1:39:45 And I have to say too, I have, I can't find in my notes now there

1:39:48 are a couple of cases prior to these serial killings that

1:39:51 people do think maybe David, I think.

1:39:55 Some of those have been. So one of those people is Cheryl

1:39:58 Renwick. Yes.

1:40:00 Now, I'd looked into this a little bit, yeah.

1:40:04 There is no proof. No.

1:40:06 There are similar circumstances, which, I mean, you guys can go

1:40:11 and do your research and let us know what you think, actually,

1:40:13 whether or not she was involved, whether she was a victim of

1:40:17 David and Catherine's or not. But I don't actually think she

1:40:22 was. The police did a lot to figure

1:40:25 out whether she was. They they dug up bloody pipes

1:40:28 and drains and looked for things.

1:40:30 Yeah. And nothing really came of that.

1:40:32 Yeah. So I I personally, I feel like

1:40:35 if there was something to find, it would have been found.

1:40:37 I feel like it too, when he was so quick to jump to like, oh,

1:40:41 there's four. Yeah.

1:40:43 I feel like he was someone who wasn't as much as we said, he is

1:40:46 an intelligent man, but I don't think he was that phased by the

1:40:50 fact of really even I mean, been to jail many times.

1:40:53 I think really bothered him that much that he'd been caught that

1:40:56 kind of thing. So I I don't know that it would

1:40:58 have taken much for him to go or by the way, I also did this one

1:41:01 and this one like. Yeah.

1:41:03 And they did, They asked if you interviewed him about it.

1:41:05 And it just kind of never went anywhere unless, again, that was

1:41:08 another control thing. And he's like, I've still got

1:41:10 these ones that only I know about.

1:41:12 I don't, I really don't know. Yeah, I I don't know enough

1:41:15 about the other. No.

1:41:16 Cases really to make a a solid judgement call yeah, but it's

1:41:21 just an interesting thing to. Also do wonder because we're

1:41:23 talking about with these ones that are prior, they would have

1:41:26 been on his own, not with Catherine.

1:41:28 And I query individually, would they have perpetrated these

1:41:33 crimes or was it because they were together that they

1:41:37 perpetrated these crimes? I feel like David with the rape.

1:41:44 Yeah, I think. I think he definitely sure.

1:41:47 Yeah, murder. I mean, quite possibly because

1:41:51 we know these behaviours escalate.

1:41:53 He did harm animals, yeah. And we know from, you know, the

1:41:59 psychology of how these things work that he probably would have

1:42:02 gotten to that point at some point anyway.

1:42:04 I think, yeah, I feel like he would have was some rapes and

1:42:07 things, but I just don't know whether he would have kidnapped

1:42:09 someone and brought them into his home and done it like that.

1:42:11 OK, well, as in like you hear the article that got put into

1:42:15 the newspaper, right? And go, you didn't have enough

1:42:18 enough charismatic personality to be able to charm someone on

1:42:22 your own. That was the.

1:42:23 Most ridiculous thing? Ever to get someone to enter

1:42:26 into your home like that, like, I mean, any dickhead would go

1:42:31 that's not going to get someone to come knocking on my door,

1:42:33 really. Whereas the fact that he had

1:42:36 Catherine with him meant that women felt a bit more

1:42:38 comfortable to well. It meant look, if, if nothing

1:42:41 else, that made it easier. Yeah, right.

1:42:43 I think I I think he would have ended up there.

1:42:46 Would she have? No, I think.

1:42:49 I don't think so. Yeah, I think she possibly, I

1:42:53 mean, she was obviously in a life of crime, but it was only

1:42:58 ever with him. Yeah, I just.

1:43:00 Yeah, He's perpetrated things without her, whereas she didn't.

1:43:03 That's right. And I just think she was so

1:43:06 infatuated with him she would have done literally.

1:43:08 Only person in her life who'd ever shown any love for her.

1:43:14 But then I look at her personality and I'm like, she

1:43:16 abandoned her children. You know what?

1:43:18 What else would she have done for him?

1:43:20 She would have done anything, Would she?

1:43:22 Would she have done that for Donald?

1:43:24 No. No, it was a different life that

1:43:26 she lived. She lived 2 separate, very

1:43:28 separate lives. That's right.

1:43:30 Yeah. So.

1:43:31 So did he. I actually.

1:43:33 That's true, yeah. I I don't know that she would

1:43:35 have. Yeah, I I just find the whole

1:43:38 again, the psychology of the coupling of them.

1:43:41 Yeah, fascinating. But also, she had it, you know,

1:43:43 because she did kill. Like, I don't know, if she

1:43:47 hadn't had a hand in actually physically murdering any of

1:43:51 them, I might have thought differently about it.

1:43:53 But the fact that she did that. And couldn't have cared less

1:43:56 about it. Yeah, she had No.

1:43:59 There was no Nah filter there for herself to kind of go, you

1:44:02 know, like I can watch you do this and because I love you and

1:44:05 I'll help you do this because that's your thing, but I can't

1:44:09 physically do this stuff. I, you know, I think I can

1:44:12 somehow compute that, but the fact that she participated takes

1:44:17 it to a whole nother level of her lack of empathy, her lack

1:44:22 of. Yeah, humanity, humanity.

1:44:25 Thank you. That must be the end of the.

1:44:27 Episode it is a when you're there, when you're there, I

1:44:31 think, look, I think you're absolutely right.

1:44:33 I think I'd really love to know what our listeners thinks

1:44:37 because it's perplexing. I think you're, I think there's

1:44:40 so much in that dynamic of the two of them.

1:44:44 When we've done before, we've talked about, you know, Paul and

1:44:47 Paul Bernardo and Carla or Morka like Ken and Barbie killers and

1:44:50 you know, in Canada and then you look, we haven't done this one,

1:44:52 but Fred West and Rose West in the UK is another one that.

1:44:55 That needs to go on our list. I don't think they're on our

1:44:57 list. Actually, yeah, yeah.

1:44:59 So we've kind of they they look, they're not the only couple to

1:45:02 ever done these sorts of crimes, clearly, but there's still a

1:45:05 very rare, you know, kind of thing that comes out of nowhere

1:45:10 so interesting and the fact. That these people find each

1:45:13 other, you know? This is it.

1:45:15 I mean like finds like I in life.

1:45:17 I do get it and there is someone for everyone, but yeah, their,

1:45:23 their, but their relationships do become more about like

1:45:26 meeting the needs that are so depraved, yeah, rather than

1:45:30 meeting needs and living a great happy life together, which.

1:45:33 Is really fucked up. Yeah, so true.

1:45:35 Yeah. Oh God it blows my mind the

1:45:37 psychology of it totally. Comment on this episode,

1:45:40 Everyone tells what you think. Super, super interested if

1:45:43 you've got any case suggestions. Speaking of which, yeah.

1:45:45 Please let us keep sending them. Always happy to.

1:45:47 We do add them on list absolutely.

1:45:49 Thank you everybody for joining us today.

1:45:52 If you'd like to join us over on Patreon, you can do so at

1:45:54 patreon.com/two Crime Besties. You can follow us on the

1:45:59 socials. We're at 2 Crime Besties on

1:46:01 Facebook and Instagram. Go and like us.

1:46:04 Please. If you can leave us a review in

1:46:06 your podcasting app that is super helpful.

1:46:08 So like yes, in our show as an overall.

1:46:10 Thing follow button to like subscribe, subscribe or follow

1:46:14 whichever app you're in and whatever they do, yeah, that's

1:46:16 huge. That helps us massively getting

1:46:18 out there heaps. Heaps, heaps, Yeah.

1:46:19 Thank you very much for joining us.

1:46:21 We hope everyone has a wonderful Easter break.

1:46:24 Too much chocolate if you can afford it.

1:46:26 Oh, I know. Bloody hell.

1:46:28 Oh, don't even get me started on that.

1:46:31 And if you're going away, I hope petrol's less than $3 a litre.

1:46:34 Oh. My God, it's gonna kill me.

1:46:36 Just crazy it is. OK, Stay safe everybody.

1:46:38 Stay safe, stay happy and we will see you in a couple of

1:46:42 weeks. Stay curious, crime besties.

1:46:44 Bye.