Episode 83 - David and Catherine Birnie: The Moorhouse Murders

0:15 Welcome back to Crime Besties, we are here for our last episode before Easter. Oh. My God, I hadn't even put that together. Yeah, next Friday is Easter. Good. Friday so this this comes out in yeah on Tuesday before Tuesday, Good Friday and we are actually taking a one week break yes we're just gonna have a week to catch up do what we need to do spend some time with our families yeah take a breath and we'll be back the week after for sure Yep so. Ready and ready to go. Actually, I think, do we return with it?

0:46 No, we don't. We do. We'll have a double episode. Coming up soon, yes, Yep, we do. So that's a bit exciting. It's really kind of reasonable to do you. Feel like I'm I really need to get started on that now. Like over the last. So we can't, we can't actually rest on our laurels. No, we've got a lot to do. There's a lot for that yes. Actually I'm I'm so not I don't know that case and it's a huge 1 so. I'm I don't know many specifics about it. I think I know a very broad. Joker about it, yeah. Yeah.

1:16 So I'm like. Can anyone guess what we're talking about? Pop it in the comments, let us know what you think it might be. Just also Speaking of things that are coming up, our merch is not very far away. So I think probably it'll be after Easter now. Yep. We will announce that on our socials. Listen out. In our next episode, we'll give some more details. And you should probably do some modelling for it maybe. Oh yeah, totally. Yeah, yeah, 'cause I'd be really good at that. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, stay tuned for that.

1:44 We're really, really excited to launch all that. Oh my God, It's been an absolute. You would think that there would be an easy way to do these things. Turns out there's not and we've. We've looked into this. Extensively. Like, please don't think that we've just been going. Oh yeah, yeah, and we're here. You want merch? Yeah. Ignoring you. We've been working. Hard on it also. Like I feel like if you're in the US, oh merch. Is easy, yes yeah, in. Australia, it is really hard and I get it, there's 300 million people in the US, it's easier.

2:10 We've got 20, what, 6 million people in Australia and we're so spread out and it is a lot harder. But anyway, we we think we've got a solution, we're just gonna wait on some samples, make sure they're all. Good. We. Want it to be good quality. That's right. Once we've got that, we will be launching an all team. And you can all arrive at your school pickups with pieces of shit written on your jumpers. Yeah, and when that sparks the conversation, you know what you need to do, don't you? Recommend.

2:37 Your podcast, obviously. So how has your week been? Oh, it's obviously winding hopefully down to the school holidays cause it's been insane. Mm hmm. Mental but I have an update on frogs. OK. Sorry, I know you were pretty adamant about this wasn't gonna occur. And I was like, no, it's not happening. No, no, they don't croak, right? I was watching TV the other night and I could have sworn that the fucking predator had entered my house. Oh my. God there was a noise and it does not sound like a but everyone knows what a croak of a frog sounds like.

3:14 But then they will have slightly different croaks according to my mad mental son that knows everything about frogs. OK, they all croak differently but I'm sorry this was not a croak. This was the predator. Oh my God. Because I was like, there's gotta be like a it. Well, I'm I'm no joke. Like legitimately it sounds like the predator. And I was like, I'm gonna die. And pop it. I don't know, because they don't do it very often. OK, well, so far that is it lit. But it's unnerving because you don't know when it's gonna happen.

3:46 And I thought there was at first. I'm like, fuck the predator. I see. And then I was like, you know, that's be sensible. There's got to be a bird in here like, oh God, it's not a bird in my house. And I was like, no, this is frogs that are making that noise. It's. Yeah, were multiple frogs making the same noise or couldn't come and tell them, Right. So it's not like one started off and then the other ones. No, because they made the sound and then nothing. And then I like went to bed a little more on there.

4:15 I know because then I'm laying in bed and I hear it and I'm like, fuck, like the yeah. Yeah, yeah. Oh, I had to sacrifice my son the other day. Speaking of birds in the house. So I told you this story. So we had I was actually bringing washing in from outside. This was before school 1 morning. Peter had already gone off to work and I'd I was bringing washing in from outside on a clothes horse. And so I had the door wide open, the back door wide open. And then something happened. Lucas called me.

4:46 He was in my bathroom and Lucas called me. So I've kind of left the washing. Yeah. And I've gone into my bathroom, which is down the other end of the house. MMM But left the door wide open. Yeah. Anyway, next minute Oliver comes out and he's like, mum, mum, there's a bird in the house. And I'm like, Oh my God, 'cause I can't. I don't do flapping, I don't do flappy flying things either. So I've locked myself in my bedroom. Leave the kids to. Sacrifice. Lucas was with me. He's like, I'm not, I'm not having a bar of this bird.

5:15 Particular child that you chose. So I'm like, I want that sacrifice yourself. And he's like, mum, calm down. I've gotten the bird out and I'm like, I'm, I'm thinking to myself. The right kid to be the right kid to be, yeah. And I'm thinking to myself, oh, I'm gonna go out there. There's gonna be like bird shit everywhere. Well, not, not a problem, not a feather, not a feather to be found. And it was one of those minor birds. Oh, they're, they're evil, those birds. I'm convinced they're evil. Up there with pigeons, yeah, yeah.

5:43 Filthy little fuckers. So thank God Oliver was home. I don't know. Yes, I would have done. I would have had to have stayed in my room. Sorry Ollie, get yourself to school. Oh God, yeah. Just life over. Done. Yeah, done. It's that's what ends. Yeah, you know how people are like, oh, if there's a spider in my house, I'd rather burn it down. I'll have to burn that shit. Down. I'll see. I'm fine with spiders. I can do spiders. Crawly creepy crawlies I have no issue with whatsoever. Birds. No, no, I do get you entirely.

6:16 I'll never forget that. My brother is like, he cannot handle any kind of bird. Whereas I'm like, OK, fly flappy things. Yeah, I can't when it's flapping and flying or not, He can't stand birds, full stop. Like, there's like, Right. So as a teacher, I used to do the whole egg hatching programme. And. Yeah. And so we ended up with these chickens and I'd bring them home on the weekend to look after them. And my brother could not handle cute little baby chicks. I couldn't either. Honestly, I couldn't.

6:45 I can't. I thought, I can handle their little tiny little chicks chirping like kind of thing. He was like, he fully, like, could not handle them at all. Yeah, being in the same vicinity as him, it was bloody hilarious. My. In laws have chickens. I mean, they they get them grown so they have them for eggs. Yeah. And I can't even go in the coop. I right I can't. But they used to that growing up. We used to go to my nan's farm and stuff and we'd, yeah, I'd go and collect the eggs, everyone. It was my job to do that.

7:08 But yeah, I can handle that. But I still I can't say if they do the flappy, if they start flapping, I'm out like but as long as they're sitting still, I'm OK. But even then, we. Don't know when they're gonna flap, so don't know where to get up. Just like I just can't. I just absolutely can't. Yeah. Jesus. We've had a really busy, like, end to this term. Yeah. Like the kid, the stuff at schools like, you know, really ramped up towards the end. Next week's, the last week of term and Oliver, my grade 6 kids going on a on Cam.

7:36 So I'm like, Oh my God, they're gonna be exhausted when they get back, but at least then we've got the holidays. Although I feel like those kids who like I was only having this conversation with something, that's when they they've planned like their Easter holidays, right? And they're going away camping. So their kid gets back from school camp and then goes camping and she's like, it's gonna be a write off. Like it'll be a write. Off it's gonna be a shit show, yeah. Yeah, you're just gonna have to do with the moods.

7:59 Yeah, and everything. That comes with it. Hopefully there's no illness on Camp Touchwood. There's no noise, almost.

8:06 But anyway, we'll see. We'll just deal with it, take it as it comes. They're all very excited. I bet they are. It's grade 6 camp. I mean, I was we're looking as well like the weather because it actually looks quite good. For next week, it does. And we're saying that, you know, they'll have fun regardless of the weather anyway because did they have like a beach thing yesterday when it was pissing with rain pissing? Down with rain. They were down at Mordielic Beach doing oh, God only knows what. Like they would just, yeah, Oliver was so disappointed because they didn't get to do all the things because it was apparently it was so windy as well, like all the sand blowing on everyone and in their face stuff.

8:41 So he's like, look, it wasn't what it was meant to be, but. They would have had. A ball. They still had a great day. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The bus trip's fun, let alone like what you do when you get there. Right, exactly. Right. I've got some more recommendations. I feel like, yes, I I've been doing this a lot lately, but I really feel strongly that I need to get these reco's out to the people. Yeah, mostly to you as well. Yes. So. I need that. Did you ever watch Deadlock season 1? Oh my God yes. How good is it?

9:09 Deadlock Season 2 is out. I haven't washed it. It's on my list. It's on my list. It's so good. Yeah, it is. So good. So they're in the top end this time. Yeah, it's absolutely it is everything you want it to be and more. Yes, Highly highly recommend. Can't wait to get into that. And then my other recommendation is how to get to heaven from Belfast. Oh, I don't know this one. It's on. No, it's on prime. I think it's on Prime, and it is for all of our listeners on this podcast. You will love it. Yeah.

9:40 Because it's a bit of a, well, a murder mystery. But anyway, watch it. Yeah, It's so funny. It's about a group of, well, there were four. It's about a group of four girls and something happens to one of them. OK as an adult. So you sort of there's flashbacks to them as teenagers and then them as women. Yeah. And it's fantastic. The characters are amazing. I fucking love their accents. Did you ever watch Derry Girl? Yep. Obsessed. So they've got dairy accents, which I just bloody love. And it's great.

10:13 Yeah. It's so captivating, this show. Yeah, it's. Fantastic. So I've just finished that this. OK, it's really, really getting onto that one because you know what comes out today at 2:00 PM? A what? The last install. Yeah. Of Love story. Yeah. I mean, we know. We all know what happens. Yeah, unfortunately I'm just hanging to watch. That me too. Yeah, Me too. So did you like in the last episode was like watching the Princess Diana stuff unfold? Yeah. That was interesting. It was interesting and point in time.

10:43 Yeah. Yeah. Incredible because I mean, I mean, that's such, I mean it's like it's well, similar to his dad, you know, like everyone knows where they were when if you were alive. Like obviously I mean, even I wasn't alive then. The Princess Diana. Oh, JFK. Hey, you were close though. Not even God, yeah, that everyone knows where they were when the events sort of occurred. Like to have that kind of, I guess to have another one of those moments in his time, in his lifetime and hit him, you know, so hard, obviously.

11:15 Like. Wow. Yeah, huge. Absolutely massive. Where were you when Princess Diana died? I was. Actually, at school it was because it was a weekend, either Saturday or Sunday. I was at school rehearsing a play that we were doing that. Yeah. And I remember someone coming in and telling us and all of us going, no, whatever, no, that's not true, That we then derailed the entire rehearsal that we were having, like searching, trying to find out information about it, kind of going. And it wasn't as easy to search back then.

11:45 No, because it was. Like 1997 I think. That she passed away. Yeah. It must have been, Yeah. It must have been your 11:00-ish. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it was, Yeah. We were trying to find out information. I remember it was just being derailed from the rehearsal and then kind of it confirmed and yeah, yeah. What about you? Where were you? I was actually at a girlfriend's house. We were having a sleepover. And I remember I was, we were in a lounge room and her mum was like, no, sorry. We were in her bedroom.

12:09 And her mum was like, come out, come and watch this on TV. Like, yeah, something's happened. Yeah. And I think it was just, I remember the announcement was like, we've just found out she died. And yeah, it was just, Oh my God, it was unbelievable. Yeah, yeah. Wow. I mean, I think, I think we found like this person was coming saying that the car accident occurred because it wasn't confirmed till later in the day that she was she had died kind of thing. That's right. Nah, what? Like, yeah. Huge. Absolutely insane.

12:39 Yeah. Yep, crazy, crazy. We have quite a few shout outs for today. We've got we've got 3 new Patreons, so Haley Hickman, Christy Koleski and Jodi Dench. When Jodi Dench signed up, I have to say I just because the notification kind of popped up on my phone and I was like Judi Dench, I'm sure she gets that all the time. I'm sure I just. Realized what you said. I know where you're going.

13:10 Anyway, welcome, Jodie. Welcome, Jodie, Haley and Christie, thank you so much for joining us. Amazing. So, so very much appreciated. Yeah. So today we are talking about the case of David and Catherine Burnie. This is just. I feel like it's so funny because you know, where there's cases where you just think everyone knows about them. Yeah. To me, this is one of those cases because I don't know, I feel like they're just part of the vernacular. It's just, I don't know if it's because we're in this space, like we're interested in all of this stuff.

13:46 I thought everyone knew who they were. Well, I was talking to Pete. He's like, oh, what case are you doing today? And he's like, oh, Nah, never heard of him. Yep. I'm like, OK, interesting, interesting. Yes. But basically we're talking about this five week killing spree that these two went on in 1986. Yes. And it's just so contextually, this was 10 years before the Claremont murders in Claremont, basically, Yeah. And it's. Some of the same sort of areas get mentioned in this, which you find kind of.

14:20 It's really fascinating that. And then in the same area, terrifying. But also I think it's really interesting that yeah, that that these two things happened separately 10 years apart and yet you look back on it to me, I look back on both and I think, Oh yeah, that's they were really, really significant events in Australia little and just in. Perth yes in Perth kind of still to stay and we always say you know you kind of like you know you fly to Perth from from eastern side of Australia and you like go back in time well they.

14:52 Say, you know, from Melbourne it's 55 hours and 50 years, yeah, behind. Sorry Perth, we don't mean that. We don't mean I bloody I think I love. It's so beautiful. It's such a beautiful part of Australia. It's a Sleepy Hollow in so many ways, but it's a city at the same time. I mean, I think the lifestyle living in Perth is so phenomenal. I, I think it's a great place to raise a family and, you know, grow up and live. I think it's a, it's stunning. So, I mean, you're so close to so many amazing places to visit.

15:22 And like, even just desert and yeah, there's so much, so much on offer there. Yeah, I think Perth is actually the world's most remote capital city. Yeah, because it is, as we said, to fly from Melbourne, the other side of Australia, it's a 4-5 hour flight depending on, you know, when you go. Yeah. So I think for people who live in like Europe in particular, it's just unfathomable, absolutely to go to another state. We have to fly for that. And drive to other country in less than that. Yeah, that's right State.

15:53 Exactly. Yeah. And it is really remote. It's it's not near any of the other capital cities who are all basically, you know more eastern side of Australia. Yeah. So it is very remote, but yeah, lots of significant things have happened there and including this case, definitely. So for people who haven't maybe heard of David and Catherine, Bernie, you may have heard of this case referred to as the Morehouse Murders. So that refers to the street in which these absolute atrocities took place. Yeah. So, yeah, can be, can be sort of referred to as both, but I thought we could start by having a chat about David.

16:34 Yeah. And Catherine separately, and their childhoods, because I think it's very relevant and very, very relevant. So both of them were born in 1951. David was born in February, Catherine in May. So they're only a few months apart. And they had, in some ways, certain parallels in their early childhoods. But then there were also, you know, significant differences as well. Yeah. Both had deeply, deeply traumatic childhoods. So David was the eldest of five children. His mother was an chronic alcoholic, and his father was physically disabled.

17:08 I believe his father had scoliosis. Yeah. And but it meant that he had very limited physical ability and therefore very limited, I guess, ability to go out and earn and provide for the family. Yeah. Whether that was the only thing stopping him, I don't know. I forget a. Vibe house was that they grew up that David and his siblings initially grew up in was apparently absolutely filthy like. They just they didn't really want children. No, they had no intention of really raising them or. Caring. Caring for them, yeah.

17:47 Neither of the parents ever cooked a home meal. Apparently. They often didn't even have electricity in the home, and so the refrigerator, just the door was open. Yeah, left open and the kids would just get whatever rants said food was. In there and that was from a very young age. It was literally if you survive, you survive mate. Like good for your. Expectation, I think as well was that, oh, I don't know whether David took this on himself but or whether this was an expectation of his parents, but he tried in some ways to look after his younger siblings and, yeah, find food where they could.

18:21 And it's just, it's heartbreaking. This is the only time I have sympathy for this bloke. It's he's a victim of circumstance in this situation for sure. Yeah. There were also rumours of family incest. Yeah, with the dad in relation to the dad and and the children in the family. Yeah. Apparently David's mum was disgusting. Like she was completely unkempt. Swore like a sailor. Yeah. Well, nothing wrong with that. Nothing wrong with that. Fuck an. Hell yeah. Fuck. An oath, mate, but she never like, never cooked or cleaned.

19:05 She would exchange sexual favours for taxi rides, taxi rides and other services that, yeah, she needed. Yeah. And that and in front of the children. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So this is not any typical upbringing by any means. No, no, no, not at all. When the family, So when David was 12 years of age, his family moved house and they ended up moving next door to Catherine and her family. So she was also 12 years of age. Now Catherine's childhood was was tragic in a very different way. Well, in some ways in a different way.

19:43 So Catherines mother died in childbirth with you when she was delivering Catherines younger brother. Yes, Catherines younger brother, then several days later passed away himself. So it was just Catherine and her father. Yeah, the age. Of two she was, yeah, with her dad with her. Dad and he decided to move to South Africa. And he was apparently he was very, very abusive. Yeah, verbally and physically. I don't know if it extended to the sexual stuff. There's nothing I wouldn't. Don't know. You didn't find.

20:13 Anything to that effect either no. Given everything that happened, I'm not, I'm not at all suggesting that her father was a perpetrator of sexual violence, but I questioned whether she had some kind of sexual violence in her past. There's, there's nothing out there that says anything about it. I just, it's, it's, it's a dynamic that I think would be possible given everything that came after. So after being in South Africa with her dad for about 12 months, he decided he couldn't handle her anymore, didn't really want her.

20:45 So he sent her back to Australia to live with her maternal grandparents. Now her maternal grandmother was especially her grandmother was very, very strict. And this was a really difficult situation. I mean, if you think about it from the perspective she would have been, what, 4-5 years old at this point when she was sent back to live in Australia with her grandparents. Yeah. The disruption of losing your mom, losing your brother, moving to South Africa, your dad not wanting you moving back to Australia, That's a lot of a very young child.

21:18 I normally that you sort of, I mean, OK, from a perspective of a child to losing their mother and yes, tragic circumstances how she was lost. But a child at that age can take that as abandonment kind of, you know, sort of issue. Then dad is abusive towards you and also then decides I don't want you anymore. More abandonment send you to a a home where again, it's very strict and tight because this family kind of what you very easily could be perceived by that child like because you don't want me like I'm I'm a problem.

21:45 So from that perspective of the child of that age development, the brain is basically perceiving all of this as I'm unwanted by everyone, I'm rejected by everyone and society in whole. I'm no good, I'm not meeting anyone's standards. I'm just a problem. Well then this got worse for her then didn't it? Because her grandmother had this massive seizure which landed her in hospital for a significant amount of time and she was then shipped off to live with her auntie and uncle. So she's again being just fobbed off.

22:17 That's. Shifting and shifting again, it's yeah. So that when you think about what that actually the impact of that mentally at that age of what that is doing to her. The auntie and uncle then rejected her and sent her back to her grandparents again once once grandmother had recovered. Yeah, I just the disruption to this, yeah, to this little girl's life. Yes, so you can understand that when she has, at the age of 12, a boy moved next door. Who they they interact and go someone wants me how that how dependent you can become very quickly on someone who shows any sign of affection.

22:56 It may have been as simple as we like the same thing as a 12 year old. Of what? The interpretation of that of that young girl who's been rejected by everyone? How that must have felt. I I fully agree with you and that is exactly what happened. So I think Catherine was an. So David was quite a switched on boy for somebody who didn't go to school all that often and wasn't. He was neglected by his family. Yeah. He was actually very well read and he knew a lot about a lot. Yeah. So I guess that was probably how he passed his time.

23:34 But that was really intriguing to her. He knew about politics and current affairs and science and he was engaging, like he was really charismatic and really drew her in. And it got to the point where the two of them were engaging in a sexual relationship before they turned 14. Yeah, yeah. But and like, taking away what happens down the track. Yeah. Looking at it just at that point in time, yes, I can fully understand why that occurred because these are two people who have been, like treated so poorly by the world, who find each other and like, go and you feel like you have a person.

24:14 And I, I can fully understand that becoming a sexual relationship, even as a 14 year old, because it's just like how I want love from someone and I'm getting it. They gave it to it. They gave each other exactly what both of them needed. Yeah. And I mean, that doesn't happen in life very often, like for people like that. That's so true. So I mean, it was, they were, it was so circumstantial that they came together. But you're right, they found what they needed in each other at the time. And I do wonder whether if paths had not gone, how it went, as in if this was the moment where they found each other.

24:47 They they are in love at fourteen, they get married at 18, have babies, have a life. I wonder how that would have looked compared to then what happened to them because unfortunately their lives around them are so fucked up that this doesn't go down that narrow path of, you know, they've found each other. Life continues with just the two of them. Yeah, that's so true. So what happened after this is David and his siblings were removed from the home due to neglect. So they were obviously, I think Child Protective Services, whatever they're called, N.W.A, I'm not sure, but they were involved with this family on and off over the years.

25:27 But it got to a point where it had. Reached enough to be. Honest, no. Earlier, absolutely not enough and not early enough. But it got to a point where the children were removed from the home and sent to foster care. And so at that point, David and Catherine lost touch because, yeah, they've he's been removed. She's obviously still at home with her grandparents. And. Yeah. And that's kind of how it went out. David then was. He was a very little man and very small and skinny. I mean, he was probably malnourished from birth.

26:02 Yeah. So he's probably failure to thrive. And, you know, he never probably grew to his full potential. Yeah. And so he he was an absolute shit at school apparently, like always getting into trouble. Yeah. And, you know, not doing his work just. Causing trouble? Not due to the fact that he wasn't intelligent as you're saying, right? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, he was just. Just a shit. Just a shit. Well, yeah, when he'd been raised like that. That's it. I mean, he had no boundaries at home. No. So he decided, well, I, I think he was probably pushed to leave school and he, yeah, he became an apprentice jockey now.

26:39 Fuck, this is where all the fucked up shit really. Starts real bad here. So he was actually a border at Was it Ascot? Yeah, I think you're cool. Yeah, I think that's. Ringing a bell? Sorry, I actually didn't write it down. I didn't either, but that that sounds familiar. And he, so he was a border there and a jockeys assistant and moved his way into actually riding horses and whatever jockeys do. Yeah. Now there were so many things that happened. And he he was only there for such a short amount of time.

27:09 Yeah. But he did so many bad things. So people who worked with him in the stable said that they caught him hurting horses. Yeah. I don't know specifically what he did. Did you? Know everywhere just sort of would harm to animals and So what that means was. Probably good that we don't know exactly what happened I. Probably can't handle that. He also there was a landlady so where the board where all of the jockeys boarded, there was a home near the stables and it was seen to buy an elderly lady who cooked and cleaned and sort of tended to the property.

27:44 And one night she was lying in bed and David came in nude with a stocking over his head and attempted to rape her. I believe he actually did rape her. He did so. It was also during that same sort of time frame was a bit of an exhibitionist. He would flash and everything, people randomly. So there's many things going on in that environment where they were like we've had enough, you need to go mate. You need to get out. So he did. I don't actually know what he went to do. I know he eventually became a motor mechanic, yes.

28:22 So I don't know whether at that point he went on to do the training for that. To me, there were some years there that aren't accounted. Because he did spend time in and out of prison too, So whether or not he studied those things whilst he was in jail, sure, maybe. Oh, actually that would, that actually would make sense. Yeah. Otherwise that would absolutely. I feel like that's that that was where I was kind of landing with it, that that's potentially where though that training came in. Yeah. And I feel like that's something that would have been part of like the time he spent there of like, well, let's get you, you know, on a path, a trade or something that you can go and do when you do exit.

28:54 So he. Wasn't actually jailed for that rape of the elderly lady. He was jailed for petty theft, burglary and like physical assault of somebody that was perpetrated during one of these burglaries. Like an aggravated assault. Yeah, he was around this time, like along this timeline, he developed an absolute fetish. Mm hmm. For pornography. He was addicted to sex. Yes, his brother James now. This is so fucking fucked up. Well, we can get probably deeper into it later too. Yeah. Do you want to do it now?

29:29 We'll talk about it later, Yeah. But yeah, there's a lot, there's a lot going on. He's he was absolutely depraved in his sexual desires. It's probably a good way to put it. Yeah. In SO in the mid 1960s now David and Catherine reconnected. Now during this time David had actually met and married a woman by the name of I want to say it was AK name. Yeah, I've got her name written down. Actually, that was not until 1972. Though that was in, it was in 72. Yeah, sorry. So they met. So her and Catherine and him sort of reconnect in 1919, marrying her.

30:12 That's right. Yeah. And they do do some jail time. Well, he does some jail time. She gets a caution. So yeah, around this time she actually became pregnant to an unknown man. Yeah, not David. Not David, although they were back. Seeing each other, seeing each other. That's right. But this pregnancy wasn't to David. They committed some burglaries together. Quite a few. A lot, yeah. They were caught, for one. That's what David ended up going back to prison for. Yeah. Catherine was actually spared prison at that point because she was pregnant.

30:45 That's. She was heavily pregnant. Yeah. She then had that baby. And when David got out of prison, they reconnected again and again, they, you know, continued the same burglaries, etcetera. Exactly. Yeah. Around that time. So I think it was like so in the mid 19. So it must be in early 1970 when David was released. Yeah. Teamed up with Catherine, they did more thefts, Yes. And that's when David went back to jail. Yeah. And Catherine too. She went back to jail for six. She went to jail for six months, and then her child.

31:23 Yeah, and the child. Sorry. Take sorry the child was taken off her. Yeah, well, she went to this, went to prison for this six months stint. Yeah, when she came out of prison, she was looking for a job. I think she. Well, the, I think the prisons kind of like said, like let's get you on a path here, we've got to get you. And they, because at this time the courts were sort of saying you cannot spend time with David like they were, you know, this is not good. So they were encouraging her to not have any contact, I think.

31:50 Catherine also said that there was a particular officer or a prison guard, prison officer who was really trying to mentor her and said to her, don't go there. Stay away from him. He's leading you down a bad path. Yeah. And she is the one, I think, who helped Catherine get the job after she was released from prison with the McLaughlin family. Yes. So she was able to get a job as a nanny and a housekeeper with this family. They were a massive family. I, I can't remember how many kids they had in this family, but it was a lot.

32:22 Good Catholic family. Good Catholic family. Yeah. She became pregnant to one of the sons in this family. So an adult son, like, they were a similar age, 21 at the time. Donald McLaughlin, his name was. And then because she was pregnant, they were actually allowed to marry. And they married on her 21st birthday in 1972. So they would go on to have seven children. Yep, this one isn't this horrific. See, this is just adds more to the tragedy of this. Woman's life absolutely so yeah, this they were having it was like a party at their house.

32:56 They had their first child. It was seven months old at this stage. Donnie Junior and Little Donnie was crawling around the on the on the ground out on the driveway of the home and somehow unfortunately someone has driven a car into the driveway not thinking that you would have a 7 month old baby on the driveway and unfortunately he was run over and killed. And Catherine saw it happen. I mean, it is my worst fit that that was, no. Absolutely awful. Awful. So look, why that baby was there and left there, I don't know.

33:31 But it's just tragic. Just awful. So but yeah, had I sort of when I first heard that, I was like, oh, God, that'll be like, you know, you don't have any more kids because she'll be in such a state. Went on to have six more kids. Like wow, holy cow. A lot it was. I mean, again, good Catholic family. But that mean total and she has 8 pregnancies. That's right. So seven children in that home with her and Donald we so she'll have she's got her son from the previous relationship that we don't know who father was, but he's Donald obviously took him on yes, of as his own basically sort of and brought him into the the family home.

34:10 You don't sort of hear too much about that being an issue. I believe, I believe the McLaughlin family were quite a respectable family. Like in the community, I think they were very well regarded. And yeah, they were a big family and so everyone kind of knew them. And yeah, but Catherine, I feel like this could have been such a clean break into a much more possible positive life. Yeah, I think that's where she was headed. That's what I think. But I'm like, do you think that because Donny Junior, Donald Junior was killed in front of her that that kind of switched something again?

34:45 I don't know. I. Don't know. I don't think so because she went on to then have the six more children, but I feel like actually, unfortunately life took a path later on for them after having all six children. There was some talk around like that. She never really maternally sort of cared for those children. Naturally, we actually know that as a fact, yes, don't we? We do, but also then Donald has an accident and injuries himself where he can't work, so the income stops. And so she's there with six children plus his father.

35:21 I believe he fell I'll So she's at home with six, seven children and looking after an injured husband, disabled husband and and father-in-law who's also unwell. Yeah, in the home. So that's actually for anybody to take on move. Houses into council housing. Yes, they had no income. They. Had no income, so they couldn't afford to stay where they were. Yeah, they went into government housing, which I think was not ideal. And it also then led to, I don't know, I just the way I think about it, you know, if you put yourself in Catherine's shoes, they're right.

36:04 Yeah. You're in a pretty shit situation. You know, there's, there's, you don't really have much going for your life even. If you are the world's greatest mother, you know, nurse trained nurse, you know to to manage that. That's a fuck load for anyone to take on. That's right, I. Not that I'm trying to defend this woman though. No, no, not at all. But we're just trying to understand. Understand it? Yeah. Not that there's a lot to understand, especially as things come out, but Catherine was also not good at keeping the house.

36:36 I mean. Yeah, well, she hadn't been raised to know that stuff either. I mean, when you think about it. No, yeah, but. And I guess she's got six kids, She's got a husband and her father-in-law who she's trying to care for. But apparently their house was really unkempt as well. Yeah. And I guess. Kids were wild, you know, You know, those families that you just look and you're like, oh, yeah, that's, that's one of them. Yeah, I can imagine that was that they were that. With that many kids, it's like they just, I mean, I know how bad it is with two, how much they rile each other up.

37:06 I can't imagine that many riling each other up. Holy fuck. You'd have to just kind of be like, yeah, all. Right. You'd go to you. Yeah. So I guess. Running alongside this, this of like what Catherine's last looking like. Then we've got David on the other side, who also married in 1972. Yeah, so that was a woman named Kerry. I did write her name down. South and again he's, he was living a very normal life. I mean, it was quite and the marriage was good. They had a daughter, yeah, and everything was going well.

37:36 Unfortunately, though, David did have an accident as well at work and he hit his head really severely. And I mean, head injuries just aren't good. I mean, you put it in the context of who he was anyway. Hadn't had to add a severe head injury to that. Who the fuck? Which Kerry has said it changed him. Yeah. Although, I mean, I'm, I'm sure a lot of these behaviours were already there. I think from what we know of his childhood and what definitely. And the fact that he raped a woman, you know, an elderly woman at the age of 15 and all these things, you kind of go, well, it was there.

38:09 He was almost. Yeah, I feel like he was almost faking it. And the head injury, like, you know, faking it to be, you know, normal running this, having this normal house and have and life. But they're the head injury just kind of went off. Like, I'm not going to put the mask up anymore and be who I am. I don't know. That's just my take. But yeah. So she ended the marriage in 82 because it was not a good household. He was abusive. She said his sex drive got really uncontrollable. And he was having multiple affairs he wanted.

38:39 He was wanting sex like six to seven times a day. Yeah, and then, well, the the clincher for her was when he brought home his 16 year old girlfriend. Yeah, to the house. Yeah, she was. She moved him in. He moved. He. Moved her in. Yeah. She was like this 16 year old was like his sex. Well, there was like a three bedroom home. And so he moved her into I know, or did he move the daughter out of her room? And that's right, he moved the daughter out of his her room into with her with his wife. And so they they were sharing a room so that he could share the room with his 16 year old girlfriend.

39:06 Bit like at that. What at that point, wouldn't you be like, yeah, Nah, David, you're not actually doing that. Yeah, I mean, I guess, I guess it's a sign of the times to his, you know, you're looking, you know, early 80s, late 70s, I mean, and what that looked like. I can't kind of judge that in that sense. I don't know. I yeah, I feel for massively for Kerry. I mean like and the 16 year old. Oh God, yeah. Which? Funnily enough, that didn't last that long. But Kerry went, she was out and took the daughter and that was that.

39:33 Well, they were over that, but yeah, so he's the 16 year old eventually moves out, but. And this is where Catherine and him come back together again. So this was around 1983 now. So David and Kerry had split up, but Catherine was still with Donald, Yes. And so that bit, Catherine and David embarked on an affair. For two. Years. They for a couple of years, then this is the bit that I absolutely cannot come out. Yeah, in 1985, Catherine literally left. Donald with his with the 6-7 kids at home. Sorry.

40:12 The child that is not Donald. Donald. Yep, Yep. Her youngest child at the time was 3 and she just walked out and left them all there. Now with a physically disabled husband who was, I believe he was quite incapacitated, like he couldn't do a lot. Back injury. It was a back injury. The way that Donald found out that Catherine and David were back together and having this affair, right? So not long after her last pregnancy, she decided to have a hysterectomy. She didn't want any more kids. She was, I mean, she shouldn't have probably had the one she did.

40:46 But anyway, so not long after she'd had her last baby, she went back into hospital to have this hysterectomy, and Donald decided unannounced to go and visit her one night. When he got there, David was sitting next to Catherine's bed, holding her hand and stroking her hand. And he was like, Oh my God, you know, I'm like, I'm a fool. I didn't see this. I didn't know this was going on. Then after that, it was like literally 2 years later that Catherine just walked out on everyone Oh my God and left them with Donald.

41:22 Yeah. It just, it blows my mind. It totally blows my mind even like not she wasn't that maternal, had that much maternal instinct. But how do you just walk out? I don't know. How you would I honestly don't know how you would. I really don't. No, it's it's it just goes to show she didn't have any maternal instinct or or her drive for David. This is so much stronger than that which regardless it's a fucked up. You could leave your husband but still keep in contact with your children for sure. Like she chose so extreme of like, no, I don't want any of that now, like that whole life that I had.

41:58 That's right. I want David, and that's. It we're going to get a little bit more later on in this story into her kids coming back into this because I just think that's terrible as well. But we'll talk about that in a second. But. We're getting to James a little bit here. I guess so too. So in this time where Catherine's still living with Donald, they're still together technically and David is on his own living in in his house. His younger brother James was. He'd been in prison mm hmm for unfortunately sexually assaulting his six year old niece 6.

42:32 Month. I've heard six months and then everywhere else I saw was six years old. OK, so I I was gonna go with six years because I saw that more times than the six. Months, but also it makes more sense to me that it's six years because of what he said. About that's why I went that way, but there was definitely places where I heard six months. Same. Anyway, I'm not ruling out either. Six years or six months, but anyway and unfortunately. I will just say either I would believe either and which is really fucked up.

42:59 Yeah, especially even when he's. Oh God, we'll get there anyway. Yeah, he sexually assaulted his six month or month year old niece. Now, as we just said what he said, he he said that you just don't know what they do to you or how they no. He said what she led me on. She led. He was inferring that she would. She let him on. He said that. He actually said she, she led me on. She you don't know what she. What they're capable? Of what she's capable, that's what it was. Yeah, I think, yeah, You don't know what they're capable of.

43:33 Six months, definitely. Six years, definitely not able to do that. Sorry, what? It's so like this whole you fucked up, this whole family. I mean, I'm pretty sure James was abused as well as a child. So it's just that. And then continue to be cool, right? And continue to be. Yeah. Because what happened was when he moved in with David. Because he came out of jail and had to have somewhere to go. Yeah, like where? So he did. He asked David and said because you've got, you know, like I have family to vouch for you to come out of in prison that he had to have.

44:08 Somewhere David's the right person to vouch for you, but I didn't. Want to even. He really didn't want anything to do with it, but he ended up sort of. Saying yeah. Folding and saying, all right, well come live with me. James says that when he lived with David then David's sexual appetite was voracious and if he couldn't have sex multiple times a day, he would try and get it from anywhere. And on this particular, there was a particular incident where he couldn't find a woman to have sex with. And he attempted this many, many times, like went to him and said to James, I can't.

44:43 I need to have sex. I need to have sex. Can I have sex with you? To which James consistently said no, not going to happen, mate. That's no Oh. That night, Dave so James said that he felt as though he'd convinced David that absolutely they were not going to be having sex. That was not going to happen. So James said he went to bed that night thinking, OK, well, I've convinced him. He's kind of backed off a bit. James woke up to David raping him. I I can't on so, so many levels with that. Yeah, that's beyond, beyond like can't comprehend that.

45:32 James continued living there though, and to me, that's. Not that gives you a bit of an idea though of the normalizing. Of these behaviours. Definitely within that family. The other thing I find so interesting is that even at that point that he was raped by David, he had never had a sexual encounter with a woman. So he obviously perpetrated acts on his younger niece, but he'd never actually had consensual sex with a woman. So for his 21st birthday, David gave James Catherine to have sex with and David sat there and watched.

46:20 That was his gift, for that was. His gift for his 21st birthday? Catherine went along with it. Too. Well, she, Catherine, would do literally whatever David wanted. Yeah, yeah. So James also said too that apparently David would inject himself with something in the his penis. Yeah. So what he said was in order because he he, all he wanted was he wanted that physical penetration. He wanted physical sex. So he would actually inject an anesthetic into his penis, yes, So that he wouldn't feel. So basically so that he wouldn't ejaculate, yes.

47:05 So he could have sex that that much. So it wasn't like, it wasn't like. Yeah, it numbed him so that he wouldn't get to the point of finishing. Yes, but he wanted the actual act of sex like it. To me, that doesn't really compute. Well, it makes me go because I mean, the fact of the matter is rape and things like, which is what we sort of get to with all this in that rape is not about sexual pleasure. No, it's about control. And I think that's more what he would that by injecting himself with that numbing stuff, he had control of himself.

47:42 And that's you're so right. I think it's all just come straight back to that. It's this is all about control and a situation. Would you go back to his childhood and he had never had any control. Now he's got control of it all. He can control himself. He control the person. He's like got in that position that yeah, I think that's psychologically that's where this is all coming from. Not that I'm. Yeah. No, I think, I think you've absolutely hit the nail on the head there. Catherine and David were never legally married, but Catherine took the Bernie surname by deed poll.

48:18 Yeah, so there. And around that time they moved into Three Morehouse St. in Willoughby, which is a working class suburb in Fremantle. It's, you know, it was quite, it was a working class suburb. So the houses were quite run down. Generally speaking, there were a lot of blue collar workers. It was kind of on the fringe at the time, although, you know, things have sort of expanded beyond that now. The city limits have sort of expanded on that now. But it was a cheaper place to live and it was where they could essentially afford.

48:51 There was a lot of drug use in that house and. They would sell drugs. They. Yeah. They would sell drugs, they would take drugs. They would. They were really sort of heavily involved in that scene. What are you doing over there? Dropping. Pens I haven't, they haven't flicking my pen at you know, now I've broken it and. Oh no, that's so annoying. So annoying. So around this time David got a job, so he'd had this injury, right? So it meant that he couldn't really be a motor mechanic and be bending over cars and all of that sort of stuff.

49:20 I think. I'm not really sure the exact extent of why that was, but yeah. He ended up getting a job selling car parts at a wreckers yard. It was like a 4 minute drive from from their house. Yeah. He would also buy parts and keep them at the house and sell them privately. Yeah, to probably extra money. He probably. Not legal. What he was doing. I'm there. No. And I'm assuming he didn't buy parts to sell. He probably stole them. Stole them, yeah, but anyway. Yeah, well known to police, we should say like.

49:47 He was well known to police, but I find it really interesting because his boss at that wreckers yard said that he was like trustworthy. He was really intelligent. He was happy go lucky. I'm like, what? Yeah. A bit of a personality shift indeed. Yeah. He was really reliable. Like he was at work when he needed to be at work and he worked. He did what he needed to do. Yeah. Well, like that's almost at odds with what we've previously having with him. Two different lives within one. Isn't it? Yes. It's absolutely crazy.

50:17 Yeah. When they lived, when they first moved into the street and into the house in Morehouse St. the neighbors said that they kind of kept to themselves. They were very, you know, they'd say hi and that was kind of it. They were very quiet, but they did notice that a lot of people would come and go from the home. This is how the drug sort of stuff came in. We know that at the time, both David and Catherine were smoking cannabis, taking heroin and other prescription drugs that they could get their hands on.

50:48 So we're sort of really deep into that scene. Yeah. Yeah. So David also, when they lived in this house, he actually did a couple of stints in prison for different theft charges. Yeah, and he around this time started having these fantasies of rape and murder, and he disclosed this to Catherine like it was nothing. Yeah, said to her. Like, I've just. I always thought that, you know, raping and murdering someone would be a really fun thing to do. Yeah, yeah. Catherine, Catherine was actually a willing participant in that.

51:22 So he's disclosed into that. Yeah, let's let's sort of see. What we can do, they did research it. They, they, they put, they got books, you know, of how to, you know, perform the perfect murder and all these sorts of things. They they fully, I mean, this is where we go back to that whole sense of like Peter David wasn't a a silly person. He was very intelligent. So he would read up on how to you. Know commit the perfect the. Perfect crime, like I mean. Crazy stuff, crazy they researched like even, you know, have like blood typing and all of that sort of stuff because we didn't really, I mean, back in the 80s didn't have the DNA.

52:00 Sort of. Any sort of data about that or books about that? Probably no. But he's looked up like blood groups and how that gets left behind, what to do, where to place people, what's the likelihood of. And he even researched like timings of things. And so, yeah, it was very much yeah, planned. And they they did test out a few things about how to attract someone, to be able to kidnap them, to bring them into this. They attempted one time where it didn't work and so they worked out that it was best for them to do it together because that someone would feel more comfortable if there was the female there with.

52:41 You know what? I totally get that. Uh huh. Like if a man approached you in a car as a woman, if a man approached you in a car, you would fucking run. But if it was a man and a woman, you may give it a SEC. You know, you may be like, OK, there's a woman in the car. Yeah, you know, they're genuine. They're fine. They're a couple. It makes the man seem safer, for sure. Yeah. Because you know what? By and large, it's not women who do these things, who perpetrate violence. Who? But in this particular instance, oh, my goodness.

53:16 Were these poor victims just susceptible? It's just horrific. Yeah. So as we said at the start of the episode, this all happened over A5 week period and it was escalating. Oh, big time. So the first victim was a girl by the name of Mary Nielsen. This happened in September of 19. Sorry. Yeah, in the September of 1986. Yes. David placed an advertisement. In October, it was actually. Yeah, the the murder was in October, but yeah, just the month before, because they were they were trying to figure out the best way to lure victims, right?

53:55 Yes. So in the September, David placed an ad in the local paper to lure potential victims. That's right, the advertisement said. Urgent Looking for a lonely. Person urgent, I mean. Prefer prefer female 18 to 24 years share single room flat now. OK, if he was trying to lure someone there are so many things wrong with that ad. With that is an 18 to 24 year old lonely woman going to want to share a single room flat with a bloke? Nope, no. Surprisingly, I didn't get any responses to that ad, no. Shit, no shit.

54:33 So basically, Mary was 22 at the time, and she went to the spare car, yard parts where David worked. Yeah, and she was looking for tires for her car. Now she was absolutely strapped for cash, I think. She was a student. She was studying psychology at the University of WA Okay. She was working part time in a deli. Yeah. So she, she was, yeah, a young person trying to make it, make ends meet in terms of doing a study, etcetera. So yeah, if she can get some cheap tires, then that's what she needed to get for a car to get around and get to work, get to uni, all those things.

55:08 So yeah. So she went there, but David was like, you know what? I've actually got some tires at my house. Come over. They've got much better tread than these, you know. Give them to you for a discounted price can. Do much better for you of. Course you're gonna do. That. Oh my God, yeah. Anyone would, especially for Mary in that situation. On the 6th of October in 1986, Mary arrived at 3 Morehouse St. She was apprehended. Is that the right word? She was taken, restrained. She was chained to a bed.

55:45 Inside. David raped her. Well, Catherine. Catherine watched David expressed a desire to kill her. Yeah, he sort of said to Catherine. Well, you know, she's, she knows who we are. We can't just let her go like. Yeah, duh, duh. Catherine went along with it. Yeah. Now they had actually already researched though, if they were going to go down this path, what they would then do with the bodies or how they would get rid of these women. They chose the Glen Eagle State Forest, which is 50 KS from where they lived, as a place to take these bodies and dispose of them.

56:24 They actually took her down there, took Mary down there alive. David raped her again in the forest. She begged for mercy. David strangled her with a nylon rope. After she was deceased, she was stabbed. Yeah, her body was mutilated. Now I don't actually know whether she was then raped post mortem or not. Well, he did say that he stabbed her though, because he read somewhere that that would speed up the decomposition process. He read it somewhere in a book. He said, yeah, well, we've done so much research, so yeah, yeah, yeah.

57:06 They buried her in a really shallow grave, which, yeah. And the interesting thing is, with all of these victims by one, they were buried naked. Yeah. Let's hold on to that. Yeah, yeah. Murder #2 was Susanna candy. She was 15 years old. It just gets worse. Doesn't it? It absolutely does. She was actually hitchhiking along the Sterling Highway in Clermont. We know that so well from the Clermont murders. Yeah. This was two weeks after the murder of Mary. Now she was described as a very smart, pleasant, straight A student.

57:49 She attended Hollywood High School. She was the daughter of a an ophthalmic surgeon, so he was I think the top ophthalmologist in. Perth. Perth at the time and they had, oh, I can't remember how many kids I had. They had maybe they had four kids I think. And she decided to get a job at the local restaurant and she wanted a little bit of independence, a little bit of her own money. I can totally understand that. At 15 I was exactly the same. Her dad wasn't all that comfortable with her having a job and and being out and about.

58:27 He just felt like it probably wasn't something a 15 year old girl should do. So he would actually walk from their house to the restaurant every night that she worked and they would walk home together. On this particular night, which was the 20th of October in 1986, her dad had another engagement, so he didn't come and pick her up. And as she was walking home from work, couple stopped. That couple happened to be David and Catherine Burnie. And because Catherine was in the car, I think she felt comfortable enough to be like, oh, yes, thank you.

59:03 That'd be a really, really nice thing. If you can give me a lift home. And Catherine and David had discussed this sort of thing of like when they would pick up girls like this of if they, if one of them felt that this was someone that they would like to have sex with and take home and do this, they had code word. And so the, the idea was that one of them would say, yeah, OK, I'm keen for this one. So to let the other one know that I'm up for this with this one, they would say, oh, David, I've got the munchies.

59:31 And Dave would respond with, yeah, me too, I've got the munchies. So they knew that that was the one that they would then. Take. Yeah, gross. They did that with Susanna? Yeah, they took her to Morehouse St., tied her to a bed, repeatedly raped her. She was day. Yes, this is the thing. So this is where some of the escalation has started to happen, right? Yeah. So they with Mary, they raped her and murdered her in the same day. Yeah. With Susanna they kept her for days and raped her like multiple multiple times a day.

1:00:14 They forced her to write a letter to her parents saying that she was OK and that she just needed some time away, needed some space. A 15 year old girl. They they said they didn't believe it for a second. But unfortunately the police did yes, which I just this that frustrates me need no end that the parents like went to the police and said, you know, their daughter was missing, but they'd received these letters and they said that's not our daughter like she there's been no reason for her to do that.

1:00:39 And at 15? There is no reason. That and yeah. And the cops were like, oh, well, you know, well, she's clearly OK because she's written letters. And so, yeah, look, she's probably just, as she said, needs some time and some space, but leave her to it. She'll come home. Where is she? Yeah, she's not with her friends. She's not. She's not without our family. She where is she? They knew this was so not in character for her and the police would not have a bar of. It. Yeah, That's fucked. Yeah. It's so fucked up.

1:01:04 Yeah. Apparently they decided a few days later that it was time for her to be murdered, and David attempted to strangle her with a nylon rope again. Yeah, but she became hysterical and really started to fight back good fucking on her. But unfortunately, they just then decided to shove some sleeping pills down her throat. And once she was unconscious. Yeah, David said to Catherine. Prove that you love me. So Catherine took the nylon rope, Yeah, and strangled her to death. They once again took her to the Glen Eagle site where they buried Mary Nelson and also buried Candy Susanna Candy in the same place, which is just just awful.

1:01:53 Yeah, just utterly awful. After they had killed her, they actually posted another letter to her family. So, you know, it looked like she was. Still still missing, yeah, but still. Missing. And so the police still, even after a week or whatever it was, thought she was still a runaway. Yeah, just. Horrific. After the fact, well, this Catherine Bernie did say about murdering Susanna that that she did it because I wanted to see how strong I was within my inner self. I didn't feel a thing. It was like I expected.

1:02:29 I was prepared to follow him to the end of the earth and do anything to see that his desires were satisfied. She was a female. Females hurt and destroy males.

1:02:41 Shit, shit. Holy. Fuck yeah. She felt nothing. Nothing. No, it was all about David. It was just about meeting his needs. And if his needs were met, then everything was fine. Oh my God. The third murder was a different sort of situation because of the victim who the victim ended up being. So this occurred on the 1st of November in 1986. The victim was Noeline Patterson, who was 31 years of age at the time. She was driving home when her car ran out of petrol and she was sort of stranded on the side of the road.

1:03:19 Yeah. She was a very elegant, attractive and accomplished woman. She was a former flight attendant for Ansett Airlines, which is no longer in existence. But then she was such a, she was so good at her job that she was actually employed by Ellen Bond's private airline for a while. And so she was, you know, sort of in the elite sphere of her career. Yeah, She worked at Nedlands Golf Club. She, she just was one of those people who she was in these elite circles and providing service in that sort of respect.

1:03:52 So you can imagine the type of person that she was. Yes, she was very well groomed, very well spoken, very accomplished in her career. And I think being a flight attendant, you're trained to, to help people feel comfortable in what sometimes could feel like a scary situation. Yeah, hit some turbulence. You know, how to make the, you know, your customers feel at ease. You know, that's, I think as a flight attendant, that's really a major part of your job is making sure everyone feels at ease and no one's panicking in situations.

1:04:21 And that's the thing. They don't panic either. No. So you're. She had a very calm personality and a very calm demeanor. Yeah. She lived with her mother in Bicton. So when she's pulled over on the side of the road, having run out of petrol, this couple who happened to be David and Catherine Burnie. Yeah, they pulled over to help. Now, she had actually previously had interaction with them before she had hired them. Was it to paint her? House, Yes, yes, so David would. Do odd jobs here and there. And she had actually, he he painted her bathroom or something like that in her home.

1:04:57 So she recognized them, and they offered to help her. So of course, she entered the car willingly. And I was like, yeah, absolutely. Thank you. That's really great. I'm so glad I ran into someone I know who can help me out when I'm stranded. Yeah. The situation escalated as soon as she got into the car. David held a knife to her throat. They took her to Morehouse St. immediately. Obviously, they both had the munchies. Yeah. She was chained to the bed, gagged. Now she was raped repeatedly as well.

1:05:29 Just absolutely horrific. Again, she was held for several days. Originally, the plan was to murder her that same day, but David changed his mind. Well. David developed quite the affinity for her, Yeah, because she was well spoken and I think because she had this calm demeanor, she tried a bit of a reverse psychology type of situation on him. She pretended to be into it. And sort of, you know that she would. She was. Willing participant in that sense of like. You know that. She was stroking his ego in the hope to soften him that.

1:06:00 He might turn around and go, hey, you know, well then we won't kill him and we'll let you go. Like I can understand her thinking and that that could work in your favour to be as submissive as possible. And you know what? I have a feeling, given the narcissist that David is, yeah, that it would have worked had Catherine not been there. Absolutely. I think unfortunately, potentially, yeah. She it, it worked against her because Catherine was there, yeah. Agreed. Yeah, Yeah. So Catherine became extremely jealous because so when they'd done this in the past, David would rape the the women that they'd kidnapped, but then he and Catherine would then have sex as well because the thrill of that for both of them would get them going.

1:06:46 Right. I just I have to say that not even thinking. About it, I know you just like disassociate, yeah. Yeah, what really pissed Catherine off was that David was actually choosing to have sex with Noelene. Yeah, as opposed to having sex with Catherine. And she got really, really jealous. And it got so much so that Catherine was saying, when are we going to kill her? And David's like, oh, maybe tomorrow, maybe tomorrow. For three days, this kind of went on. Yeah. Catherine held a knife to Nolline's throat in front of David and said it's her.

1:07:19 Own me held the knife. To her own throat sorry and said it's either her or me. Yeah, I'll kill myself right now in front of you or you kill her. Like, which is it? To which David said, yeah, Well, Nolan goes, he was as infatuated with Catherine. I mean, in his mind, I can imagine him doing the whole, like, Nolan's not exactly going to let me keep doing this with other women, whereas Catherine will, if I Yeah, that works for him. Catherine was complicit in all of it. As in as in she'd already been involved with all of this, where essentially Noeline was a victim of theirs.

1:07:52 Exactly. So they did the same thing with her. They forced sleeping tablets down her throat because, again, she put up a fight. Yeah, he, David strangled her while Catherine watched. They took her body to the Glen Eagle Forest again and buried her with the other victims. Now they're, well, interesting. Didn't go that smoothly. No it didn't. No, just really quickly, what I just wanted to say before I forget is that Kath, sorry that Nolene was the only victim that they buried with her underpants on.

1:08:25 Yeah. And I think that's because, David, it was almost like human respect thing. Yeah. In some way, yeah. In his own warped, weird way, yeah. So. But in put they put her in that shallow grave to bury her, and it turned out she wasn't dead. Oh no, that was Denise. Oh my God, we're only up to victim 3, aren't we? No, no, this is how I'm like. No, we've got to be up to that one already. I know. There's more, there's more. Fuck me. So sorry people don't want to confuse people. No, it's all right. So now we're up to victim #4 now Denise Brown.

1:08:59 So this was. I'm sorry, people, there's more. Yeah, so. The day that they murdered Nolene, they picked up Denise. Literally. And this is the thing, they were not stopping. And this is where I'm saying it's escalating. So they had a few days before the victims at the start. Yeah. Things were They were keeping them longer. They were perpetrating more sexual violence upon these women. Yeah. And now they'd literally just buried one and the same day they picked up the next. So Denise Brown was captured on the 4th of November in 1986.

1:09:33 Yeah, she was 21 years old, and she was a computer operator. And she also did some babysitting for neighbors and for family members. Yes. She was sitting at a bus stop on the Sterling Highway, and the Bernie saw her waiting for their, for her boss. And she they stopped and asked her if she wanted to leave home. Same thing. She got in the car willingly, obviously. I think, you know, Catherine being there again would have made her feel comfortable enough to do that. Yeah. After entering the car, David held a knife to her throat.

1:10:09 They've taken her to Morehouse St. chained her to the bed again. Over the next two days, they assaulted her, sexually assaulted her, they forced her to phone her parents now. So this was a little bit different in terms of. They've gone from the letter writing to now phone calls. Yeah. She did that. I mean, she was under the threat of death. She had a knife to her throat. She did say to them, was it her that she said that she told them that she'd been, she was out drinking with friends. Yeah, because she didn't drink.

1:10:42 So she was hoping her parents would twig and go to the fact that there's something wrong that's not right. Like she doesn't drink. But yeah, they didn't twig. Unfortunately, no. Yeah, I guess you're 21. You think as a parent you'd think, oh, OK, you've tried it. You haven't given it a go. I mean, it's not outside the realm of possibility, is it? No. No. Anyway, they. So it was it was this one was Catherine's choice to kill her after the couple of days. Yeah, they actually took her to the Nangara pine plantation to kill her.

1:11:14 Now she was alive when they got there. Yeah. He they salted. Her. Again. Yeah. Catherine was holding a torch while David was trying to slit her throat. Yeah, he sort of stabbed her in the neck. He stabbed her, but it was. Stabbed in the neck? Yeah. He was convinced that she was dead from that turns out. So while he was, he dug the hole while he's thinking she's dead from the stabbing in the neck and he moved the body into the grave and she sat up that just. That happened twice. Yeah. So after the first time she sat up, Yeah, Catherine went back to the car to get a bigger knife.

1:11:57 An axe after that was next. So the next one was a bigger knife. They then stabbed her in the chest. How many things they have with? Them, I know, Christ. They well, they had their kill kit. Yeah, this is part of the research. My God. David then stabbed her in the chest. They then tried to, well, they've then laid her down. Back again. I think she's dead now. Like Nope. Nope. She then sits up and gasps again. Yeah, David then struck her with the shovel that he'd used to to the grave and then used an axe to actually bludgeon her to death.

1:12:28 Yeah. He struck her twice in the head and then buried her. Oh God. Awful. Just awful. I mean horrendous. It was just horrendous. Doesn't even begin, does. It no, and I mean. Catherine found this murder particularly like she was quite squeamish did. She I'm sorry. Yep, sorry. I fucking don't care. But but this is where the escalation was heading, right? Yeah. This was 27 days of murder, abduction, assault. Just absolute horrific, horrific crime. Absolutely. Now comes, I have to say, the woman who deserves so much credit in this.

1:13:20 I think without this woman can. You. Imagine so many more women would have died because even at this point with these three women, four women, sorry, who have gone missing, yeah, the police have not put together that there's a there are serial killers out there. They don't. They've got three independent people, but even with one of them, they're like, are they missing? You know, it wasn't like, no, they were putting all this stuff and because they were. Writing letters or phony and even though that had stopped because they're working so quickly.

1:13:49 That's right, it was like the same day or next day. Yeah, it's not even like that The two are being connected because there's like, Oh yeah, well, she's gone missing, but she's sent you a letter to say she'll be back soon, and she phoned you the other day like it's fine. So I think I guess in some ways as a police obviously like, oh, the MO's are a bit different if there is a crime here even. Yeah, but they didn't even really think there. Was no happening. They would just thought these people were just needing more time for themselves.

1:14:14 What? I think so. The final victim, Kate Moyer. Yeah, amazing. She is such an incredible woman. I just think I I am so in awe of everything she did. Yeah. Because without her doing all of those things and remembering all of the things that she did, I don't think we'd be where we are today. No, because possibly the police wouldn't have believed her anyway. 100% So she did. She is. She's incredible. Let's get into it. Yes, she was drinking out, drinking with some friends. She was quite intoxicated and she was hitchhiking to get home.

1:14:55 Yeah, after a night out with friends and obviously the Bernie's have come across her. They picked her up. This is on the 9th of November 1986. Yeah, so this is only, again, four days after Denise Brown's bludgeoning. Yeah. You know, horrific, terrific death. Yeah, mind you, sorry. In all of this, we should say David with abducting all these women, which will come into play here. He just continued going to work every day. He never stopped. He was never late for work. He was never, never changed his demeanor at work.

1:15:27 No one was sort of going to his what's up with David lately? Or you know, or he's late again, or you know, he's not showing up today. He continued his life around all of these murders and rapes and everything as if nothing else was going on. Yep, that's that's pertinent to the story for sure. Yeah, as soon as she gets in the car again, she's met with a knife to her throat. They've taken her to the house and they've forced her to write goodbye letters. OK, now she observes everything in this house now.

1:16:01 David and Catherine were using code names. They weren't calling each other by their given names. They were calling each other by other names. Must be in that book they read. Yeah, yes. Don't let the victims know who you are. It's in your face, but whatever. Yeah, what exactly? So first thing that she does is she tries not to make herself a victim, OK? She looks them in the eye. She tries not to show that she's fearful. Yeah, she actually befriends a little bit more. Catherine, definitely. Which, you know, as we said, Noelene's tact didn't really go her way because of Catherine being there.

1:16:38 That maybe that the fact that Kate that she took the the tact of befriending Catherine was maybe a better route. And I mean, how, how are you to know that in this? I totally, I'm not trying to victim blame here that she's got no anything like that, but but yeah, this was a tact that maybe was a little bit more workable in this scenario. Yeah, I mean, she wouldn't have known. No, but she's just luckily picked the right 1 I think. That's it. She just happened. This is the way she went. So I think because of this situation and as you were saying, David was going off to work every day, so during the day she had more time to chat to Catherine, get to know her time, friend her a bit.

1:17:16 God, whatever. And really, I think the idea from Kate's perspective was that psychologically, if you befriend someone, it makes it a little bit harder for them to then hurt you or kill. You, they did say to Kate that she said, they did say to her that will only rape you if you are good, which we know is not true. But I think Kate was kind of hoping, well, you know, if we can just stick to that, that would be great. That would, you know, be the the the best case scenario in this because that's fucked up as it is.

1:17:45 But yeah. Yeah, she notices quite a few things in her days there. One of them was the fact that she could hear the Rocky movie being played on the VCR. She could hear a certain cassette tape that was being played over and over again. Who was? It oh God, now you've got me I'll. Have a look. I think I have got it written down in my notes somewhere. But there was a particular cassette, a song that kept playing, right? Yeah. She also noticed a pill bottle that had David's actual name on it. So she remembered his real name.

1:18:18 Yeah. While she was while she was tied or chained to the bed. Yeah. She noticed that the window in the bedroom, there was like a 15 centimetre gap and it was never closed. They never really closed that window. So she was just kind of looking at her surroundings. She'd also been like given like pen and paper obviously to write letters to family that she used that the pen and drew pictures and things on the wall just in case she didn't make. Out of it, she also. They would say those and know that she was there.

1:18:50 That's what she was saying. So she also drew pictures on paper and put them inside the pillowcase. Yeah. She, she wanted people to know that she'd been there. Yeah. And this ended up being such a brilliant, brilliant thing for her to do. She also, they tried to give her sleeping pills because he would handcuff himself but David to her in the bed and make her sleep there next to him. And so but they would also give her sleeping pills, but she wouldn't. She what she would do is put it under her tongue kind of if she swallowed it and then she'd spit it out and she hid them under the under the mattress as well.

1:19:22 So leaving again, more evidence of herself being there. Yeah, yeah. Incredibly, what a strong woman. She just never. Went 17 years of age, and if we said that or not, I don't know. Yeah, she was 17. I mean, that's insane to have the forethought to do all these things. And to not go into shock, yeah, like, you know, to be able to have the presence of mind to do it. What a such a strong, strong woman. Totally. So she also kind of got a bit of a feel for the routine of the of the day and the day and the fact that David would go to work at a certain time and all of that sort of stuff.

1:19:56 Kate asked. So this happened on the morning of the 10th of November. Kate asked Catherine if she could go to the bathroom. This forced Catherine to unchain her. And while Kate was in the bathroom, there was a knock on the door. Now, this particular person was one of the Bernie's drug dealers. Yeah. And so Catherine didn't want this drug dealer to know that they had Kate in the house. So she took Kate out of the bathroom and shoved her in the bedroom. They didn't have time to chain her up before running back to the front door to answer.

1:20:25 To the door to the drug dealer. Kate used this opportunity to make a run for it. So she got herself somehow out of this 15 centimeter gap in the window because it wouldn't go up anymore. It's not like she could. Open it all the way. She was half. Naked wheezed through that so. I think she was just wearing a bra and undies. I think so, yeah. She. Ran. She tried, I think, to. Knock on neighbors neighbors doors. No one was home. I mean, it was the middle of the day at this point. Most people working, yeah.

1:20:55 She ended up at a delicatessen, and the owner of the business was actually standing at the front of the of the business. She ran inside and screaming, she's like, I've been raped, I've been raped, Help. I need the police. Yeah. She was so terrified that nobody would believe her. The fact that that's even a consideration, I think that wouldn't happen in this day and age, you know, fucking hope. No, it wouldn't. It just you cannot tell. No, it wouldn't happen. Yeah, no, I don't think we know too much these days.

1:21:26 Yeah, that's right. So anyway, they, this, this shopkeeper has called the police. The police have attended. Now this gets me the the interview with the Sergeant who did this. I actually really thought he was great and I'm guessing this is just another sign of the times. But what they did was they got her in the car. They they said to her, do you think you know where the house is? But even before that, oh, sorry. It wasn't until it was particular Constable Laura Hancock, yes, who got involved. It wasn't until she the the female constable and spoke to her.

1:21:59 In a constable for like weeks. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Isn't until she got involved that they actually believed her. Yeah. Which I just, I really get really annoyed with that. But yeah. But then they decided to put her in the car, which, and again, it wasn't until they were in the car and got to the address where she really got really agitated and broke down. Because I mean, how scary are you taking me back to where I've just. Re traumatizing again, I don't think that would happen. So she was because of how beside herself she was when they reached there and that the obvious trauma that she was displaying, it wasn't until then the police went, I think there might be something in this.

1:22:39 What? Dicks, sorry. Yeah, I think, but because she was able to give so much detail. So we're talking that you know, the police. So yeah, no one was home when the police then knocked on the door. Catherine, I gotta wonder, like what did Catherine do when she realized? I think she went running and looking for. Looking for it. She must have. She must have. Yeah, yeah. Because yeah, you know, an hour or. 2 Later she did herself. Oh yeah, absolutely. But. Would she? I don't know. They're so weird. Like, well, apparently when the police, when she came in, she was like, Oh yeah, yeah.

1:23:08 Like as in yeah, we're caught. Like as in. Well, she was. Well, she she denied. Everything deny it that initially she did deny it, but that was until David came back but what the. He told a different story of like that, yeah. We'll get to it. But what the police found was they found the VCR had Rocky, Rocky DVD, VHS in it. Time travel. Yeah. They found the cassette, which I can't remember what that was, but that was in the cassette player. They found the pieces of paper in the pillowcase, the drawings on the wall, the tablets under the mattress.

1:23:40 They found the pill bottle that she described exactly where she described it. So they knew she'd been there. They knew she'd been held there. Yeah. And they believed her story. Yeah. So they then wait for David to get home and they arrest both Catherine and David. And initially they they interview them, right? Yeah. They take them separately. Interview them separately. Yeah. The way they conduct the interview is they basically say to David, oh, we know. We know everything. Well, first of all, because yeah, he's denying denying it entirely.

1:24:14 And what he said was actually that that Kate was there voluntarily for consensual sex. So he wasn't denying that she'd been in the house and that all these things they found because they did put it all to him going. But she told us this and this is what we found and that. So he's like, oh, yeah, yeah. Well, she was in the house. We were having sex. She wanted it, you know. So that's how he try and take tries to go that route. And this goes on for so long. And the police were getting really, really annoyed.

1:24:38 They ended up trying to say what they thought to themselves. They actually put together themselves that kind of like, you know what, we've got a few girls missing and, and this is kind of lining up. They did thankfully use their brains at this point and put it together to kind of go, let's try this guy's, you know, call his bluff a bit. And what the cops did was they went, you know what, what guys, we're over this. We're not even going to do it. We're just going to go dig the bodies up, which they just happened to say the right thing.

1:25:06 To which David went like they've already found those. To which he answered, Well, there's four of them. Which the cops were like, wait, what? Hey, hang on, wait. Didn't know what they'd stumbled across really, 'cause they were just really trying to stir him up. They didn't know. They didn't know how many. They didn't really know if it was true that this would be this the guy. I mean, God, yeah, just. Lucky. I mean, they, they knew that Kate's story was probably true, but they didn't know that he'd been involved in anything else.

1:25:38 But there was there was nothing they would suggest that he had at that point. Other than the fact they're going, we've got these other missing girls from the area, you know, like what if this guy's, if this is his MO and he does murder them? And like, that was all they were kind of like going spitballing him. What about this? That's all it came down to, thankfully. And then he just dug his own grave. In that he went, yeah, well, there's four of them. They then pressed him on it a bit more and he's like, I need to speak to Catherine.

1:26:05 Yeah. And they're like, yeah, Nah.

1:26:09 But they told Catherine, well, David's confessed everything. So yeah, you might as well, you might as well let us know exactly what happened. So yeah, they did. They said where they had left the bodies. Now, the police were able to then forensically match the tire treads from their car to the tire treads that led to where the graves were both in the in the forest and the plantation. And so obviously that ties them to it as well. There was soil evidence in the car. So on the shovel that they'd left in the car and I believe on the axe, there was some evidence like blood evidence.

1:26:44 Yeah, they so again we're talking pre DNA, but they were able to do the ABO blood typing and figure out that, you know, these matched they then obviously had most of a confession as well. Yeah, to. Go along. But. So in that they, they Catherine went with them to the, the gravesite there showing them where the bodies were in, you know, in this, I guess, getting their statements and their confessions and things like that. And it was very interesting that when they spoke about and they were digging up the bodies and things that when she sort of indicated where Susanna's body was, Nollene, sorry, Nollene's body was, she spat on her on the, on the grave, on the.

1:27:24 Grave. What a disgusting pig. Shows her disdain for her like in that and. You think I mean, obviously these she's not right, but you know, you think you've been caught out. You kind of got, you think she'd be hanging her head a bit, but no, she's just got she's spat on the grave in front of the. Police in front of the police. Investigating the murder of these four women that she's perpetrated and rapes and the brutality of it. Because there was no then I mean no denying the fact that in this scenario I guess I mean yeah, Catherine could have taken the tact of oh, David made me do it right.

1:28:01 That just threw that out the water like to bet for her to stand there in those those grave sites and spit on one of the women that they had done this to it just proved that she was just as culpable as David in this. There is no you know manipulation from him to do this but to create this this is this is equally both of them not all him and taking Catherine along for the ride or any of that and they needed to be treated exactly the same way to me then in the trial. No, you know more for him because he committed all of it and she was just in a.

1:28:35 Long in a shit. Position and didn't get out of it. Or if he was abusing her. Yeah, no, go on. God no. So they both plead guilty, which is something I suppose they were. Sent. They did say that too, even said David said at the time. It's the least I could do for the family. It's the least I could do. How about you don't murder and rape? And that would be the least you could do. Actually, I think, yeah, like, not rape. Do that. Rape women? Yeah. Not kill them. I feel like that's your base. Yeah, that's, that's, that's bare minimum.

1:29:07 Bare minimum. Sack of shit. Such a sack of shit. They were both sentenced to life imprisonment with a never to be released recommendation in Perth. They have to give a minimum sentence, a parole date though. Yeah, so they both did that. It basically meant that with the minimum term they would have been eligible eligible for parole in 2007. The judge who was Olken Wallace, said that David Burney's prison record was stamped with a never to be released. So that meant when he was eligible for parole, they should never actually consider it.

1:29:49 So under the law, they had to have a date, but it should never be considered for him. Yes. He said. Each of these horrible crimes were premeditated, planned and carried out cruelly and relentlessly over a short period. He should never be let out of prison. Yeah, Catherine received the exact same sentence. And as I said, her minimum term would have led her made her eligible for parole in 2007. Yes, in 2005, David dies in prison by suicide. He was an incredibly violent inmate and he had assaulted many, many of his fellow inmates.

1:30:31 The day after he committed suicide, he was due to go to court for the assault of one of his. Which he was, fellow inmates, he was a little man, little, little like that. It really shows, I think, just how vicious, vicious he was, how in desperate need he was for sex because he how he had the ability to overpower these men in prison just is unbelievable. But yeah, clearly. I think so. He actually got himself into a position so many times over the over the course of his stay in prison, of his incarceration.

1:31:14 He would go to the Infirmary lot. So he'd get into fights, get beaten up, have to go to the Infirmary. When he was in the Infirmary, he was obviously in with other inmates who were incapacitated for whatever reason, and he would use that as an opportunity to overpower. Just horrific. Absolutely horrific. Awful. And so you know he's dead. Cool. Good Oh by. The way when they were first put in prison, Catherine and David, obviously Catherine's gone to a women's prison, David's gone to a men's prison.

1:31:46 They exchanged 2600 letters between them over a 10 year period. Yeah, they were utterly obsessed with each other. They were. And that's the only part of this that I can and come it from the perspective of psychologically those two needing each other so badly, it just it show that actually shows me the smallest part of human nature in them. Sorry, those 2600 letters were over 4 years, not ten years. Sorry. Four years, yeah. Yeah, but. Catherine decided at one point to complete, so I think she was given the advice, yeah, if you don't cut off contact with him, you are not getting parole.

1:32:25 Yes, yeah. That's not going to happen for you. You need to not engage with him. So she listened to that and she stopped writing back to him. She did. She stopped writing letters to him and started writing letters to her children that she this is. What I was alluding to. Before, yeah. You know, she'd abandoned her kids, what, 20 years earlier? And now she needed their help because she needed family to be released to if she was going to be even considered for parole. She had to have someone who'd stand there and say she would come and live with me.

1:32:53 Yeah. She wrote to her children. Not one of them responded. Good on them, Fuck off. Good on them. Fuck right off. You abandoned them. Yeah, they owe you fucking nothing. One of her children, because she, she, he is related to her, has had his entire mouth of teeth punched out of his face. Yep, not because of anything he did. No. Just because he, because he's related to her now. Just now, David's only daughter, only biological daughter, has come out. She's changed her name. Yeah, she said. She will never, ever have children because she will not continue that bloodline.

1:33:29 Yeah, how God like where? Rationally, like this is just going to impact. Yeah. Families forever. Not only the victims, I mean, but I mean, Catherine's children were victims in this too. David's daughter is a victim. In this too, absolutely they didn't. Choose this. Nope, they didn't choose to have these people as their parents. The fact that she has come out and said that says to me she wouldn't have a child who would be that because she would actually. Give them a child. But she's like I, I couldn't risk it.

1:33:59 She actually says I wouldn't. Risk it. I I can understand it in that perspective. But at the same time, I wish she'd just know that how she would raise a child then is not how her dad was raised. Yeah. And therefore, yeah, her child would have more chances. Yeah. Of not being that. Yeah, awful. Now, after David committed suicide, which was on the 7th of October in 2005, nobody ever claimed his body. Nope. So he was buried in a pauper's grave in an unmarked grave and given a pauper's funeral. So no one actually went to his funeral.

1:34:35 No, no. Why would they? Good fucking job. Yeah. This case is so fucking disturbing it's not even funny. Catherine is still in jail, obviously to this day, and she has had parole hearing hearings, but she's actually never put herself up for parole because she knows she's not going to get it, really. But she's actually the prison librarian just. What book she recommends to people. How to perform the perfect murder Oh. That's what I'm wondering. She's like, oh, this one's a, this one's a page Turner.

1:35:08 Read this one thoroughly Oh man, because they I mean well they did for a period of time they did I mean, and it's performed the perfect murders. I guess in that sense that they managed to do it four times. That wasn't till the fifth attempt and it. Was just right and it was just so lucky you know so Kate's impact is actually really far reaching. Yeah. For decades after this so when she was still a minor, maybe not so much. But decades later she has come out and she has actually changed the law in WA Yeah.

1:35:40 So she campaigned against these repeated parole reviews. So in WA the law was that at the point where you become eligible for parole you are entitled to a hearing. In fact, you you have to have a hearing every every three years. This was alongside the Grano Grano massacre as well the the family of her. So it was with them that they changed that law, yes. Yeah, so it's called Kate's Law. In 2018, it was changed. And what it basically meant was that parole reviews can be delayed for more than three years.

1:36:13 Yeah. So where there's and? It's now six years instead of three. Yeah. Where there's situations like this where, you know, there's very unlikely chance of rehabilitation and very unlikely chance of parole, especially if the prisoners not putting themselves up for parole, then it can be extended. And what that means is that for the victims, it's less re traumatizing because what Kate found was every three years, she was petrified that Catherine was going to be let out. She shouldn't. No one should have to endure that.

1:36:47 She's already been. She's already had almost the worst thing ever happened to her. And yet now she has to be aware that, oh, God, that date's coming up again. And oh, my God, what if she gets out? You know, all of that. Yeah. So good on her for advocating beyond what she did at the time. She's, she's such an incredible woman. She really is impressive. Wow. To come out of it the other end and be able to put your feet in front of 1 foot in front of the other, let alone do things like change the law is.

1:37:17 Incredible. I think if it wasn't for Kate, there would have been untold number of victims. I know that when the Claremont killings happened, the Claremont serial killings happened. Catherine was quoted as saying at the time that after the first murder, she said, oh, that's a serial killer. I can see it, Yeah. She's lived it. She's lived it, she knows it. We need to listen to these people. Yeah. Yeah, man, which of the cops again with that one didn't put it together for a very long time. And it's like they didn't learn anything from this one then.

1:37:56 Yeah, I know it was 10 years and that's a significant amount of time, I guess when you're looking at day-to-day policing. But like if we don't learn things from situations like this, then what? What? What are we doing? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. You know, it's tragic enough that these things happen. At least we need to take something away from it. Yeah. Yep. Change things, process things differently, definitely look at things in a different way. Yeah. And that just didn't happen. No. And unfortunately, I think it took the Claremont serial killings to happen for things to actually change and that view to shift, Yes, in Perth in particular.

1:38:32 Yeah, yeah. Oh God, that's just this one is a real it's, it's awful. I just, it sat with me all week kind of going. I just can't like to think there were 4 victims. For me, it was the thing that really got me with this, the four victims, absolutely and their deaths, absolutely. What actually really got me was the sexual nature of these crimes and the fact that, you know, we've started off with David and his siblings growing up in a family where incest was occurring, moving that then through to him, really starting his sexual relationship with Catherine at a very, very young age, moving that through to the addict he became, the sex addict that he became.

1:39:23 Yeah. I just think how many points of intervention were there? Where could we have done better as a society? Where could there have been earlier interventions and where could this have shifted? Where could this have changed? And would that happen today? Well.

1:39:40 There have been others similar. I mean, yeah, so it's crazy. And I have to say too, I have, I can't find in my notes now there are a couple of cases prior to these serial killings that people do think maybe David, I think. Some of those have been. So one of those people is Cheryl Renwick. Yes. Now, I'd looked into this a little bit, yeah. There is no proof. No. There are similar circumstances, which, I mean, you guys can go and do your research and let us know what you think, actually, whether or not she was involved, whether she was a victim of David and Catherine's or not.

1:40:19 But I don't actually think she was. The police did a lot to figure out whether she was. They they dug up bloody pipes and drains and looked for things. Yeah. And nothing really came of that. Yeah. So I I personally, I feel like if there was something to find, it would have been found. I feel like it too, when he was so quick to jump to like, oh, there's four. Yeah. I feel like he was someone who wasn't as much as we said, he is an intelligent man, but I don't think he was that phased by the fact of really even I mean, been to jail many times.

1:40:53 I think really bothered him that much that he'd been caught that kind of thing. So I I don't know that it would have taken much for him to go or by the way, I also did this one and this one like. Yeah. And they did, They asked if you interviewed him about it. And it just kind of never went anywhere unless, again, that was another control thing. And he's like, I've still got these ones that only I know about. I don't, I really don't know. Yeah, I I don't know enough about the other. No. Cases really to make a a solid judgement call yeah, but it's just an interesting thing to.

1:41:22 Also do wonder because we're talking about with these ones that are prior, they would have been on his own, not with Catherine. And I query individually, would they have perpetrated these crimes or was it because they were together that they perpetrated these crimes? I feel like David with the rape. Yeah, I think. I think he definitely sure. Yeah, murder. I mean, quite possibly because we know these behaviours escalate. He did harm animals, yeah. And we know from, you know, the psychology of how these things work that he probably would have gotten to that point at some point anyway.

1:42:04 I think, yeah, I feel like he would have was some rapes and things, but I just don't know whether he would have kidnapped someone and brought them into his home and done it like that. OK, well, as in like you hear the article that got put into the newspaper, right? And go, you didn't have enough enough charismatic personality to be able to charm someone on your own. That was the. Most ridiculous thing? Ever to get someone to enter into your home like that, like, I mean, any dickhead would go that's not going to get someone to come knocking on my door, really.

1:42:34 Whereas the fact that he had Catherine with him meant that women felt a bit more comfortable to well. It meant look, if, if nothing else, that made it easier. Yeah, right. I think I I think he would have ended up there. Would she have? No, I think. I don't think so. Yeah, I think she possibly, I mean, she was obviously in a life of crime, but it was only ever with him. Yeah, I just. Yeah, He's perpetrated things without her, whereas she didn't. That's right. And I just think she was so infatuated with him she would have done literally.

1:43:08 Only person in her life who'd ever shown any love for her. But then I look at her personality and I'm like, she abandoned her children. You know what? What else would she have done for him? She would have done anything, Would she? Would she have done that for Donald? No. No, it was a different life that she lived. She lived 2 separate, very separate lives. That's right. Yeah. So. So did he. I actually. That's true, yeah. I I don't know that she would have. Yeah, I I just find the whole again, the psychology of the coupling of them.

1:43:41 Yeah, fascinating. But also, she had it, you know, because she did kill. Like, I don't know, if she hadn't had a hand in actually physically murdering any of them, I might have thought differently about it. But the fact that she did that. And couldn't have cared less about it. Yeah, she had No. There was no Nah filter there for herself to kind of go, you know, like I can watch you do this and because I love you and I'll help you do this because that's your thing, but I can't physically do this stuff.

1:44:10 I, you know, I think I can somehow compute that, but the fact that she participated takes it to a whole nother level of her lack of empathy, her lack of. Yeah, humanity, humanity. Thank you. That must be the end of the. Episode it is a when you're there, when you're there, I think, look, I think you're absolutely right. I think I'd really love to know what our listeners thinks because it's perplexing. I think you're, I think there's so much in that dynamic of the two of them. When we've done before, we've talked about, you know, Paul and Paul Bernardo and Carla or Morka like Ken and Barbie killers and you know, in Canada and then you look, we haven't done this one, but Fred West and Rose West in the UK is another one that.

1:44:55 That needs to go on our list. I don't think they're on our list. Actually, yeah, yeah. So we've kind of they they look, they're not the only couple to ever done these sorts of crimes, clearly, but there's still a very rare, you know, kind of thing that comes out of nowhere so interesting and the fact. That these people find each other, you know? This is it. I mean like finds like I in life. I do get it and there is someone for everyone, but yeah, their, their, but their relationships do become more about like meeting the needs that are so depraved, yeah, rather than meeting needs and living a great happy life together, which.

1:45:33 Is really fucked up. Yeah, so true. Yeah. Oh God it blows my mind the psychology of it totally. Comment on this episode, Everyone tells what you think. Super, super interested if you've got any case suggestions. Speaking of which, yeah. Please let us keep sending them. Always happy to. We do add them on list absolutely. Thank you everybody for joining us today. If you'd like to join us over on Patreon, you can do so at patreon.com/two Crime Besties. You can follow us on the socials. We're at 2 Crime Besties on Facebook and Instagram.

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1:46:31 And if you're going away, I hope petrol's less than $3 a litre. Oh. My God, it's gonna kill me. Just crazy it is. OK, Stay safe everybody. Stay safe, stay happy and we will see you in a couple of weeks. Stay curious, crime besties. Bye.