Episode 82 - Carly Ryan: Australia's first Catfishing Murder

0:15 Welcome to Crime Besties for another episode. How are you going, Meg? Limping along, that's all. Yeah, Yeah. How are we doing? Well, I have had to use a lot of under eye concealer today, and I'm not normally a concealer gal, but I barely slept last night. I just think it was a combo of like this perimenopause shit. Yeah, I was hot and then just I couldn't get to sleep. And then I woke up at 3:00 in the morning, which seems to be my standard at this time these days. Yeah. And then I was just kind of drifting off back to sleep and my youngest had a nightmare and came in and we.

0:49 Spent the night for it. I literally, yeah, I had the same. Oh yeah. No, I don't know what that's about, but he was like, I'm really scared. I'm like, hop in. Yeah. And then of course, when he hops in, the dog thinks that it's per opportunity to also hop in, and the bed's just not big enough for. Four of us, no. So I just didn't really get back to sleep after that. So and then normally I'm a make your lunch boxes the night before kind of a gal, is it? Always the way that if that sort of shit goes on, that's when you don't do the free plan.

1:19 I felt like I. Had a bit of a reprieve today because today is the kids are celebrating Harmony Day at school Yes, and it's a sushi lunch day at. Least your kids eat sushi well. One of them is very new to sushi, yes, but I was like, oh, so I don't have to make sandwiches and you know, the the fiddly stuff. Yeah, it's just. Chucking it to make it in the morning and it'd be fine, but then I was like, it's like a zombie making their lunch boxes this morning. And I'm pretty sure Oliver threw in things into his lunch box that I wouldn't normally allow, but he took advantage.

1:50 Of my yeah, he took. Advantage, advantage of my the state that I was in. So yeah, I look, I just feel so. Tired. I'm here for it yeah, I'm with you. I'm with you yeah, yeah. I felt like my kids were never gonna go to bed last night Like it's like one of those like just every. You know, they do the whole like they get up every time and like. Oh, but I need to tell you this and oh, I've forgotten my tummy hurts and. Nothing more important happens than after bedtime. Yeah, No. No story is as urgent as a story that needs to be told after they're meant to have lights out.

2:19 Oh. Exactly. I mean, because we had stuff on last night that were can't get home till late as it was that it was already like pushing it, pushing it that I'm like, I just need you to keep moving to get to bed and stuff. And it was like, Oh my God, it's 9:30 and we're still not in bed like. Oh, can we? Yeah, that's 9:30 is disgusting. That's a hard no no. I just. Need that, you know I need an hour at least of just kids asleep, watch my crap on TV, whatever, just to decompress. Didn't get it last night.

2:45 No that. Makes a difference too 'cause you haven't had your sort of wind down routine. No, so I didn't. I couldn't wind down. Yeah, it's awful. Yeah, horrible. Yeah. Peter and I last night were watching a documentary about Fukushima, which was like the nuclear power plant reactor that melted down. And it was, it was really interesting. But I was like falling asleep up with, I'm like, Peter, we're gonna have to watch this. Yeah, you know a 19. Minute documentary in two parts because I cannot, I actually can't keep my eyes open.

3:13 Yeah, but you wanna watch it. It wasn't like, you know, I'll just fall asleep here 'cause this shit, like, it's interesting, really interesting. Yeah. But another thing that I've been watching this week that I actually fully binged one day, I can't even remember when it was, was the new, it's on Netflix. It's called Dynasty, the Murdochs. So it is so interesting. It's like real life Succession. Did you watch Succession? No, it's one of those shows where I'm like, oh, I think I could really get into that, but I need like time and you need.

3:44 Time and it's you know, it's it's over now obviously, but just can't even remember how many season 6. Maybe it's all about TV. Yeah, I fucking loved Succession, watching the sort of the real life, you know, the Murdoch's. Actually, I didn't know a lot of that story. A drama as in like or is it or It's not a documentary. Yeah, it's. Really, really good. Highly, highly recommend. Yeah, definitely. Yep, jot that one down. No, I think on my list this weekend is real house, not real House. Secret Lives of Mormon Wives season 4.

4:13 It's come out so. Have you heard about SO with Secret Lives? Apparently. I don't actually know. I haven't really looked into it, but Taylor, Yeah, So. All over it. What's his name? Dakota. Dakota. I was like, I know it's a real fucked name, what is that? But Dakota, like, did he, what happened? Did he abuse her or something? OK, it's it's a whole thing that no, like he's saying that she did right and he's saying he's got video evidence of. It OK but he hasn't released it. No. He's a fuck. They are.

4:50 They've actually halted production on season 5 due to this and it must be massive. There must be something to it. She's also got The Bachelorette that's about that's about to. Start. She's doing all the press for that at the moment. Oh, I'm keen to work. I'm gonna have to look into this more 'cause I've only seen real little tidbits. Of it on TikTok, yeah, it's a it's a whole thing. OK yeah, very interesting. So like she's claiming he has, but he's claiming she has and it's a it's a whole thing.

5:18 And there's sort of the, the vibe is that there's got to be something in this, otherwise they wouldn't have stopped production. Oh, for sure. So because they're actually filming season 5 at the moment and they've, they've stopped, of course, production. So yeah. But she she is still doing press for Bachelorette, which they were sort of like thoughts of like they might pull her from all that and sort of go, let's just keep it expensive. Yes. So when they've put so much money into her her series for Bachelorette.

5:43 Yeah. But I mean, I've already spoilers are out of that episode now because of everything. So you already know who I won't do it for anyone else. Yeah. Yeah. But you can find out totally. It's all out there, it's everywhere. Yeah. So it's huge. Yeah, yeah, I'm here for all of the Salt Lake City shit. Same. I'm not here for domestic violence, but no, I'm here for the the drama of the. I just can't wait for the new season of Real Housewives of Salt Lake City to come out either. Well, that's true. That's.

6:10 Bring it on, bring it on because I'm finding I don't know about you, but I love Beverly Hills, but it's a bit boring. Like there's no one. I mean, Amanda's a fuck wit. I can't stand her. I cannot. But she's not in next season. They've. Already Yeah, the hat to scrap her she's a fuck wit she's a. Dick Yeah, so she's not in it, but then who's gonna be? Who's gonna give the But we need people arguing like to read. No, because actually you're right. Sutton seems to have one season where she's like totally fine, and then the next season where she's wild.

6:45 So next season, she's due for a Wild. Season, so maybe that'll come, yeah. Maybe, maybe they can. We need. Erica to fire back up too. I want her. But I just love Erica. I just love her. For her I really I. Love her, she's the best, yeah. Yeah, I noticed that on our Apple podcasting charts. Guess who we're just slightly above on in the charts. Who? So Real Housewives Orange County. Yeah. So Emily and her husband have a podcast. Yes. True crime podcast. We're just smidge above them on Are You Fucking Kidding me podcast charts?

7:24 No. Are you actually screenshot and everything? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I am. Blown like we're in the same like if you're above. Have you listened to their podcast? Yes, I have actually, a couple of times, Yeah. Yeah. Are you into it? It's a different vibe. Dynamic, the two of them, actually, I actually find them as a married couple kind of funny. Like I love, I love their banter between them. To me, actually, they remind me of you and Peter, the way they speak to it. Oh, really?

7:51 It's love, like love, hate kind of vibe, like it's just all, you know, that you can take digs from each other and, you know, very open, honest kind of conversation they have. I really like it. It's I think that's how a married couple should be. Yeah. It's great. So yeah, I do like that side of it, yeah. I feel like it's got a bit of an AI research vibe to me. Yes, she reads off the script, which, you know, a lot of people do whatever, but yeah, yeah. But then I do like I prefer it when they get to their banter of them.

8:20 Me too. Like can't believe we're above them. Oh geez, man, that's kicking gold cash on our back. And I just love it because it just kind of, it just felt right, you know, us being in the same category as a Real Housewife. Totally. It fits. It absolutely fits. All right, shout outs for today. So. Many. Heaps. We've got a couple of new patrons, Jade Walmsley and Joanne Illingworth. I was actually chatting back and forth with Joanne on the socials yeah and she was like I'm gonna sign up tonight. Then like literally 5 minutes later the Ding came up and saying that she'd joined the Patreon.

8:52 So thank you guys for doing it is so appreciated. And we're actually recording a Patreon only episode after this. Get that out. It'll be out by the time you get this one. Yeah, that's it. So. You'll be able to, yeah, really, really invest in all of that. And then we've got a couple of wines have been bought for specifically, yes. Obviously I love everyone defines it like please don't buy coffee. Yeah, don't be stupid. We're not. Don't worry, We're not Rebecca Devine. She said to buy a bottle of wine on her.

9:22 Thank you Rebecca and Cynthia. Helen, she said she found us a month ago. Her comment was actually really funny. She said she found us a month ago and at the start she found our banter like out before the case banter like I think maybe a bit annoying. I don't that's not the word what? And but then now she's like really here for it now that she reckons she's listened to our whole back catalog now and like, I actually really appreciate. That yeah, she's worked us out. Yeah, yeah, we are really irritating to begin with.

9:50 And then you have to screw on you. It's a. Slow Burn takes 80 episodes before you really get into it. But anyway, thank you very much to Cynthia. We then also have had a really lovely message from a listener named Tara Bethune who sent us a really lovely message about one of our recent episodes. So thank you very, very much for that. We love the engagement. We really try to reply to everyone where we can. So if we've got the time, sometimes we don't get. Some everything busier. Than others yeah but please keep keep D Ming us or you know popping comments on our socials that also helps to for other people to find us if you make comments on our podcast episodes in whatever play you're listening to the support is very very much very much.

10:36 Yes, we love it. That's it. So today we are talking about the murder of Carly Ryan. Now, when you and I were discussing, we were sort of discussing this week's episode or even just scheduling in these episodes. I think this to me was one that was really, really important that we do. Yeah. And I think we're in our Patreon episode today. We're probably going to talk more about why we choose the the topics that we choose and all of that kind of thing. Yeah. But this one, I think to both of us really resonated.

11:08 And in researching this, I actually found myself as a parent of preteens, this really hit home to me big time. And if not for the work of Carly's mum and lots of other legislative changes that have come from this and then from lots of other similar incidences, I think we're trying as best as we can as a society to make the Internet a safer place for our young people. It will never be safe. It is always something that as a parent we need to be across and be on top of. But you never know, you know, kids have access in lots of different places and in places that you're not necessarily around.

11:51 And I think this, I think, is going to be for us and for our generation, the most difficult part of parenting. I could not agree more. It terrifies me. And then, but I think these stories are so important to keep in forefront of people's minds for that exact reason that you can't get LAX on this stuff. You've got to be on top of it all the time with your kids with using the Internet. Do you know what worries me? I feel like at the moment I've got a lot of control. My kids don't have like school laptops or anything like that.

12:23 They are at home whenever they're on a screen, they're not allowed to be in their bedrooms. They need to be in front of us. We have all of the parental controls on, so we limit what they're allowed to access. It worries me when we get that next step and my eldest is going to high school next year out. Yeah, he will have a school laptop. I know kids can get around using VPNs and get around all of the restrictions that school places on things. And our kids aren't silly like kids aren't silly. I mean, in that sense, they know more than we are.

12:51 They're digital natives. We are not. I mean, you and I are both in the same generation, so don't bullshit. I mean, you're. Actually a bit old. They're a bit older than me, but. We follow this category where we fell into that bracket of we are, we've lived a digital world and a non digital world and that stuff. But that has put us into the bracket of understanding good portion of it and being able to get some of it, but not to the level of what they have their understanding of this stuff and they're well not even understanding of it.

13:17 Actually, that's the wrong way to put it. They don't have an understanding of how much control they have compared to like us not having that. So they're actually so naive in their accessibility. And I think that's where there's a real issue with that of I mean, as every teenager, I think that they know everything that's biologically how they meant to their program to be. And it's part of them becoming adults that they know how to do things and they dismiss their parents. So it's about them moving on from the nest and back in, you know, cave times that it's still there in them to do that.

13:46 But we still, we have to somehow as parents, navigate that when they're not mature enough and have enough knowledge to deal with it really. And I know as a parent, I'm trying to consume a lot of content myself on how to protect them and what to do. I think there's a lot of really, really good resources out there. But then I also don't know what I don't know. And so, like, you can be as informed as you want to be, but with these kinds of things, that changes all the time. Things are constantly like that.

14:14 The goal posts are shifting in terms all the time. Yeah. So it's, it's tough. But it's also then you can know all you want to know and you can try and give that on to your kids. Then there's the people who don't do that in their families that then influence other kids because they're allowed to do things because that parent isn't as aware as you are or for whatever reason. That then concerns me as well. So it's what they're being exposed to beyond the home, as you're saying. For sure. I mean, had a bit of a funny moment the other night, like on this, that my mum was home with the boys.

14:45 Now my mum, as we said, we tell her she celebrated her 80th birthday recently. So, you know, technology is not her Forte. And my eldest was doing homework on the computer and the next thing he was calling his younger brother over to and they were giggling their heads off at whatever they're doing. Mum was like, you know, all of a sudden, like, oh, I better go just check what's good idea. And she's like, I don't know what I'm looking at, like whether or not they're doing the right thing or not. She and all she said to me was, look, I had a look to see what they were doing.

15:10 It wasn't porn, so I figured they were fine. I love it.

15:19 Can you imagine them sitting at the kitchen table watching porn? Anyone going? Hey brother, come. Over here. Check them out. With grandma sitting like at the kitchen table or something.

15:30 That's just learning how to do animation or something. That was totally fine and innocent. But yeah, I loved mom. She's like, look, it wasn't porn. But see, this is the thing, right? And I think generationally that's probably what they think is the worst. This is here online and it is. Not it is not Is it actually isn't. That's fucking scary. That's scary. I don't care. Yeah. I mean, the whole porn thing scares me too, because I mean, that's a whole different conversation. But yeah, it's it's a scary world out there.

15:58 Yeah. Yeah, and this case really hits home as to just why it's so scary. And yes, what we can, I don't know, hopefully keep in the forefront of our minds as we navigate these years with our preteens and. Teams and. Yep, Yep. So Carly Ryan contextually. So this happened in 2007. Now, the Internet at the time was, I'm going to say, still newish when I say that, I think people assumed that the people they were talking to on the Internet were the people who they were saying. They were totally. You know, there was a lot of chat rooms were really big and meeting people online was a really big thing.

16:46 There wasn't such a thing. We didn't have video calls or anything like that. Some people had webcams, but it wasn't really a thing at that time. Myspace was massive and I guess it was the start of early social media, but the the. I think Facebook was part of this, but it was, I mean, it was early days of Facebook was like, I think so Facebook was sort of 2000 and five, 2006 it came out. I think so. And so this is still early days of some people weren't on it yet, you know, like, whereas I mean, these days, well, it's not the not the young ones, but everyone, everyone's on Facebook, calling Instagram.

17:16 Yeah. You know, snap anyone? Yeah, Myspace was the bigger one of the the two at the time. Myspace was so big at the time that in 2006 or 2005 was it it actually had more traffic than Google. Crazy. Did you have a Myspace account? Oh yeah, what was your username? No, I didn't have 10. OK, no mine. Mine was Emma in ounces OZ.

17:43 What a dog. So I would have been, I think I was in year 12. Yeah, Myspace kind of became a thing. Yeah, It wasn't until I connected that even Myspace, I don't know. I don't know how I missed Myspace when I'm too old. I don't know, Definitely. Even Facebook, when it launched, I was like, oh, I'm not doing that stuff. I was the same with Facebook. Yeah, it was I didn't I didn't have a Facebook page for ages. And I actually still these days I get a pop up every year and it was one of my friends going oh, you've finally joined Facebook.

18:10 I. Literally got the same, yes, literally the same because I think I held out for a good 12 months. People hassling me going you need to be on Facebook. Yeah, yeah. And so, but my Myspace was yeah, it wasn't. I didn't twigger that that was the what was being used. But my younger brother had gone overseas and he had set up a Myspace for his travels. OK, so we could all check out his photos and stuff like that. But I don't remember actually having a Myspace account even. I must have to be able to access that.

18:37 Yeah, you would. Have. Yeah, but I'm so I must have. But it wasn't something you obviously used a lot. No, not at all. It wasn't until many years later that I that my younger brother Andrew was like, yeah, that was Myspace that I put that on. I was like, oh, like, OK. I thought it was just a website. Yeah, At the time as well, like parents thought that the kids, you know, what they had to worry about in terms of in terms of stranger danger was like, you know, being followed home from school by a stranger in a white.

19:03 Van big time, yeah. What they what parents didn't understand yet was that they actually needed to be afraid of the people who. Could enter your home. Virtually computer, yeah. And the stranger danger that cut that came with that. I think that was just absolutely not on anyone's radar, no. Because I think parents back in our generation thought if you were at home, you were safe. Yes, But we now know that's not necessarily true. Actually, not true at all. Yeah. And so that makes the world a pretty scary place when you're not even safe in your own home.

19:35 Oh God, yeah. For, I mean, for lots of different reasons, yeah, for this. For this, like digitally, yes. You know, especially. Yeah. So who was Carly? She was born on the 31st of January in 1992. She lived in Sterling in the Adelaide Hills, which is a beautiful, beautiful town, sort of a wine region of the Adelaide Hills. Just an absolutely stunning place, but tiny population of 2 1/2 thousand people was. There's like I, I actually Google Maps the Main Street because I was listening to a podcast that was talking about it and I'm like, oh, I want to see what it actually looks like.

20:13 I would love to go there. Yeah, it looks really lovely, like lots of cafes and lovely shops. And it's I think autumn is the time that a lot of people visit there because the trees are starting to turn red and just absolutely really love the wine region. Don't we all I. Mean we need a road trip, peeps. Yeah. Actually, maybe we should. I've always wanted to go to that cube winery in SA. What? Yeah, I'll. I'll yes, yes, send me some up on my S Australian wineries. I have to admit WA, I'm on Moore New Zealand.

20:49 Oh. Yeah. All right. We'll, we'll talk about this offline. So Carly lived at home with her mum, Sonia, Sonia Ryan. Sonia was only 20 years old when she had Carly and I have to say that they looked so similar. They could absolutely be sisters. Apparently that's what they got all the time. Sonia looks very, very good for her age. Yes she is. They give me Gilmore Girls vibes. Total Gilmore Girls vibes, Yeah. You can sort of see they grew up together in a way. So I mean, a 20 year old raising a child, that's a massive thing.

21:24 But she didn't really, really a good job with Carly. And they were so, so close. Yes, so much so that Carly would tell her mom everything. There was nothing hidden between them, which is unusual. Because teenage girls, yeah, at this point. Carly was 15 years old. Yeah. And I think that's the time that you kind of maybe would pull away from your mum a little bit and. Because you know they suck. Because they tell you you don't do things. Yeah, and not to wear your hair like that or not to do this or not to do that and not to be friends with that person or whatever, but the their relationship never kind of got to that point that they were very open with one another.

22:03 They. Disagreed on things, but like they were, they still connected back, you know? And I think there was a real mutual respect that went both ways. I think is lovely. And I would love to have that with my I can achieve that with my, me too, me too. So Carly was a very creative girl. She was sensitive, she was quite bright. She loved music and this alternative culture. When I emo. Yeah. Did you ever go through an emo phase? Not I wouldn't, not to the extent where I would say I was emo, but kind of on the on the on the fringe, you know what I mean?

22:36 Like hey did. You dye your hair black? No, no, I dyed my hair black. I was never emo. No. Right. But I did have a phase where I dyed my hair black. And I look back at photos of me now with my hair dyed black, and I'm like, fuck, you look so pale. You look dead. Yeah, you actually look dead. What were you thinking? That I loved it at the time. Absolutely. Left my hair jet black. I definitely got into like sort of the music of that and the, you know, that side of things and like it was intrigued by it.

23:03 But I wouldn't have said that I was. I was emo. Yeah, yeah, we had. We certainly had kids at our school who? Are emo, definitely, and they were like subculture, definitely. And again, generally the person who was friends with everyone sort of stuff at school that everyone had their groups, but I would talk to everyone but the emo crowd. I quite enjoyed them, they were good. People and they liked listening to music and all of that sort of stuff. Even though Karly identified with that sort of emo subculture, she actually also wore really colourful outfits.

23:31 She wore a lot of band T-shirts. Yeah, she had the darker hair and all of that kind of dark makeup, the really heavy eyeliner. And the kind of a I've moved that into that. Yeah, OK, yeah, Yeah. But and she was, I guess she was almost more punk in the way she dressed. Like she would wear chains and sometimes she'd wear tutus and, you know, things like that. Like she was actually really quite cool. Very cool. She was an incredibly active Myspace user, so. Her whole friendship group work. That's right.

24:02 She socialized with her friends on there. And these are friends she knew through school and through and through other extracurricular activities. And this is where I think the web starts, right? So she knew all these people that she was interacting with on Myspace. Those people knew people who introduced her to that sort of next level out. So she then doesn't know those people, but she knows them through a friend of a friend or something like that. And so it gets. Some of these were legit, like, you know, like, as in, like, you know, you've got a cousin or, you know, a friend from your sports that you play on the weekend that that person doesn't know, but, you know, that they know them.

24:37 Like. Yeah. And so the web continues from there, Like, yeah. So this is where it gets used to people's advantage, I guess, of that. Yeah, that people can slot in very easily. I guess in that sense that you know someone knows me and it gets lost as to how. Yeah, that's very true. Yeah. One of Carly's really good friends had met a boy on Myspace who she knew, again, through a friend of a friend. Yeah. And they had started a relationship, and they'd taken that relationship from the online space into the physical world.

25:07 Yeah. And it was going really well. They were, like, going out all the time and socializing with one another. And they were into the same things. And, you know, they were involved in the same sort of chat rooms and all of that kind of stuff. And Carly saw this and was like, oh, that's, you know, really lovely. Like that's what can happen. IRL, as the kids would say, she could see it in real life, these two getting along like together in real life as well as. Online so she could see, online so she could see the translation from meeting someone that way.

25:39 That's right in how a positively it. Could go. Yeah, into a real world experience. Yes. She also used a a website calledvampirefreaks.com. Yeah, apparently that was pretty up there with Myspace at the time. I've never heard of it myself, but obviously it was a bit more in that emo culture. Yeah. And I think the Vampire Freaks was more, yeah, I think you're right, was more about the music scene and that kind of thing that she was really into. So she had a very significant online presence. Yeah. And her mum knew about this.

26:09 Her mum knew that she was in these chat rooms. I look, I think thought as we discussed before, that she was safe because she was at home. She's not going out. Well, there was open communication between them about what was happening on the line of who she was talking to. There wasn't anything being hidden. So I can see from Sonia's point of view that she was like, yeah, she's on these chat rooms. And I know she, she's talking to that there's friends of hers from school in there, too, and that this is what teenagers now do, that she was comfortable with it because it wasn't like Carly was hidden away in her bedroom doing things that she didn't know about.

26:42 That's it. Yeah. It was around so early. I think it was early 2000 and six, 2005. Oh, was it 2000? It was as early as that. Yeah. Sorry. Mid 2005. Right. Oh, yeah, because it was about 18 months, wasn't it, that they'd known each other? Yeah. So Carly started talking to Sonia about this boy that she'd met named Brandon Kane. Now they had met again. It was kind of through a friend of A. Friend when I was her best friend, actually. Who was it? Yeah. So this Brandon Kane actually been speaking to her and they've connected and, like, we're getting along.

27:16 But for whatever reason, this Brandon Kane saw that she was friends with this Carly and that they were all in the same group chats and things like that. And he asked for Carly's e-mail address, and they wanted to connect with her. But so because she, this best friend, had been communicating with Brandon for quite some time already, Carly was quite open to that, that, you know, this is someone that her best friend knew, OK was being introduced to her all via online platforms being, you know, but same as, like, I guess if a friend said, you know, like, come meet us for coffee, you know, meet my friend.

27:48 It's just, I mean, if you put it into that context, it's like, yeah. Well, you know, you know, that's nothing. Yeah. It's just a way of introducing each other, you know, before Buddy Tinders and things have been involved, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. So Brandon was born and raised, raised in Texas and he was an 18 year old musician. He lived in Melbourne. So for the context in terms of distance, Melbourne, about an 8 hour drive from Adelaide and in a different state. Yeah. So he was saying that he was living in Melbourne.

28:17 He liked everything she liked and they really hit it off. They had a lot in common. They were talking about lots and lots of different things. He. Was quite successful in his music and was like sort of doing some little bit of touring and things. Well, he. Said that he'd gone to Paris for. Was that like a music gig or? Something I believe so, yeah. So she that was incredibly impressive to her as a 15 year old. And it got to the point where they were communicating so frequently and their relationship was developing.

28:50 And it came to the point where I think Carly definitely developed an infatuation with Brandon and it went both ways. I mean, he was just as infatuated with her. And so they essentially started online dating exclusively. They and they were communicating beyond the chat rooms. They were communicating over the phone. So there was phone conversations as well as chat room stuff. So yeah, it, it really grew into a relationship from Carly's perspective for sure that they were, they were in a relationship.

29:24 There is a. Constant contact. Now you can have a look at. I mean, we can't actually see it anymore, but Carly's online social media pages were covered in messages from Brandon and lots of lovely things that were written about her. Yeah. And it actually went both ways. She did the same on his social media profiles and. And yeah, it was just, it appeared to be young love. Yeah, young. Yeah, just that the infatuation was there. Yeah, that went on that relationship building like that, as we said, went on for 18 months.

30:00 So this is coming up for her 15th birthday and Brandon would love to be there for her birthday and celebrate it with her, but for some reason he can't. He had he was actually going to Texas. That's right to visit. A family that he had in Texas. Yeah, but his dad, who Carly had also been communicating with on this platform at a point he was introduced. I'm, you know, and Carly was, you know, found that really great because she knew she felt like she was being involved in a family, not just Brandon.

30:28 It was, you know, he was, she'd been introduced to. I mean, it's like anyone wants to introduce to their partner's parents. You know, that's kind of the next level of, you know, approval of the relationship and definitely. So that's. And Kylie didn't have a dad in her life, whereas Brandon was actually the opposite in that he had a dad but not mum. Yeah, in his life. So I guess they probably connected with things like that as well. So she was introduced to this. Shane, Shane Kane. Shane Kane. I know, I say that.

30:54 I know. Shane, Kane, Shane Kane Terrace. OK. So, yeah, Shane had spoken to her online on these platforms, had also spoken to her on the phone as well. So she had known him for a little bit in that sense. So what Brandon had said to her was, I can't be there for your 15th birthday, which really sucks. You know, that's awful. But it just so happens my dad, who works for a security company and has been told by Carly that he'd already told Carly that he was. He can. He travels with bands and things, and he represents his.

31:24 So does the security with the company. SAS soldier. Yeah. So he's, you know, Army military kind of background and now does security a really well known bands and he was going to be travelling through the area. Maybe he could pop in. At least we had to give her a gifts and things for her birthday and pass on from Brandon his, you know, birthday wishes. So this is taken to Sonia, Carly's mom, to say, you know, can Shane come and do this, which Sonia immediately was. I don't know about that. I'm not having some stranger in my home.

31:57 They spoke on the phone, though, Sonia and Shane, they did have a conversation on the phone. So she had I've spoken to him and she said at the time he appeared to be a normal dad in terms of the conversation they had. And she sort of found that it was lovely that they would get to know each other a little bit as well if their two kids are dating and this is fine. So she ended up agreeing to meet up with Shane in the Main St. in in Sterling so that they could meet out of the home because that just felt a bit not right.

32:26 Good on you, Sonia. Excellent. Lovely. So she did. She went and met on the day of Carly's birthday party in the morning I believe it was. She went and met up with Shane in the Main Street and they got talking and it was lovely. She said they got a lunch he had with him ID that from the security company that he worked with so she could prove that it was him he had a. Security T-shirt on a polo T-shirt with the with the logo. Company logo was all. Checking out, you know, he was who he said he was.

32:59 Yeah, she said that physically he didn't look like what she thought he was going to look like. Yeah, so he was quite tubby, like he had a big belly and his teeth were crooked and he just looked a bit not what she was expecting from a few things that he told her, like the fact that he was this ex SAS soldier and he was insecurity. It just didn't. She said that that didn't really check out for her. But then she's like, well, you know what it is what it is like everything else kind of checked for her.

33:26 He was personable. They got along OK, and Carly really, really, really wanted Sonia to like him. Yeah, so she was wanting to, I mean, I get it, wanting to make her kid happy as well, you know, And that's like, it's when you knew how important Brandon was to Carly at this this point and was really, you know, wanting to make sure that Carly felt supported in these things too. Because, you know, your daughter's potentially dating someone who's a little bit older than her and all these sorts of things that you want to be involved.

33:59 You don't want her to shut you out at some point. So it's a real balancing act of protect. But support, you know, kind of I can fully understand that. Yeah, me too. This next bit I kind of find a little. Bit odd. Me too. But but this is where I think that level of brooming, I don't know what that what was spoken about specifically to get to this point. But in the conversation, Shane mentioned how he had nowhere to stay in in Adelaide where he was, where they were. So while he was in town. So Sonia said to him after this conversation of meet each other in the town.

34:29 Well, why don't you come along to the party and you can stay the night at our place that you know you can stay, OK. That that I would never do that, No. But, and as I said, I don't wanna judge it. I'm not judging her. I don't know what how he managed to do. That I feel like you and I probably given the breadth of our experience in terms of what we research as well and those of us who are interested in true, true crime, like everyone listening to this, we probably think about things in a bit of a different way to the standard general population.

35:04 And so no shade on Carly. So yeah, no shade on Sonia whatsoever. No, I think she was trying to make the best of a situation that she was placed in. So basically, so Shane, Shane came then came over to Carly and Sonya's house. Carly was yeah Carly was having a 15th birthday party. She had a group of girlfriends and a couple of boys as well. So one of them being her ex-boyfriend and they were just hanging out as teenagers do, and interest, Well, actually, first of all, the gifts. That were. Bought.

35:41 I really I never felt could work find this out or whether or not Sonya knew what these gifts were. I have OK at the time or not? No, I don't believe. And I don't believe she knew, because you couldn't have. You couldn't have the gifts that were given to Carly. Suppose Brandon. Brandon, but given by Shane. Lingerie and a nurse's costume. What the fuck? What that gross? I'm sorry genuinely, if an 18 year old was giving that gift to a 15 year old. Even that's wrong. I just what? Yeah, what? Well, he would have been 19 by this point, right?

36:26 Because when they met, he was 18. True, true that. So that's even, it's even worse. Oh, absolutely disgusting. But basically that night at the party, several friends of Sonya of sorry of Carly's had reported after the fact. Because you don't know what you don't know. In the time that he was really creepy, Shane was really creepy. He just, the things he was saying, the way he was acting towards Carly was really off. When she was talking to her ex-boyfriend at one stage, you know, he got really like, shitty with Carly for doing that.

37:01 He got Carly to kiss one of her female friends in front of him. Like, it's very gross. Like really gross behaviour as a 15 year old. I don't know what Carly was thinking. I, I don't know, like she. Well, we kind of know in that they did have a conversation after all this that she didn't feel comfortable either. Yeah, yeah, but she still did it. I think she, well, that was because she was. 15. She was 15 and so infatuated with Brandon. So we also know that this night, Shane actually propositioned Carly for sex.

37:39 He said to her that Brandon wouldn't mind because we're keeping it in the family. He unbuckled her pants and lifted up her top and touched her inappropriately before propositioning her for sex. As if she wasn't going to feel uncomfortably in her bedroom enough. Anyway, he actually then ended up sleeping the night in her bedroom. The next morning, Sonia was sort of checking on Carly and making sure she, you know, she was OK and found Shane on Carly's bed. Now apparently he was on top of the covers and Carly was under the covers and.

38:15 Clothing was all. Clothing was all on, but I mean that's so inappropriate, so fucked it's not even funny. So of course Sonia's like get the fuck out of my house. You are no longer welcome here. Carly was devastated because she felt as though it was. Going to be over between her and. Bran, that's right. It would really impact their relationship. And so she was really, really, really upset. And like, this is the thing where I kind of, yeah, Carly was in agreeance with her mum. She did not like what Shane had done.

38:46 She didn't. She's expressed that to her mum and she understood why her mum had thrown him out, but at the same time she was angry because it was going to impact her relationship with Brandon. So in all of this, and I can understand that from the 15 year olds perspective entirely, that, you know, I don't care about his daddy, his dad's awful, but he, I love him, you know, kind of thing. I can just imagine her being so distraught by that. Yeah. And pulled in so many directions. Oh, for sure. Carly did have as you we were talking about before she did have contact with Shane.

39:20 So she she actually cut that off and she was only then communicating with Brandon. So I guess in her mind, she's put that to bed, you know, she's put that aside. She has like there's communication between her and Brandon where she's like, I really hope this means you don't think anything less of me, but I can't, you know, I can't communicate with your dad, but you know, I love you so much. And, and he reciprocated. He was like, I love you too. I'm really sorry that happened. But in Sonia's eyes, she believed that it stopped completely.

39:50 So she removed, she took Carly's phone, you know, and all these sorts of things, everything. So she believed that the communication was not happening between Brandon or Shane at this point. Was this at the point where Sonia sent an e-mail to Shane? So in this e-mail she basically said you need to cease all communication. Your behaviour was absolutely abhorrent. These are the things that you've done. And like she, I think she just wanted to get it off her chest and also put an like, make it finite like this.

40:20 Is it like cutting everything off? We're done. She she threatened. Him with that, she would go to the police. She said if you make contact again, I will contact the police. Yes. And he basically came back with an e-mail that was like, bitch, please, you know? Literally, literally. It started with Bitch. Please. Yeah. Like who the fuck do you think you are? Oh, you know, if we go to court over this, I'm the decorated SAS soldier and you're just a bitch, Yes. Yeah, that was the exact wording in the e-mail.

40:47 I was like that. Oh my God, what a sack. What a piece of shit. Absolute fucking piece of shit. Awful. Because what? Yeah. He's the way he wrote that e-mail was like this entitlement of like to her daughter like and like. How dare you interfere with me getting at getting your daughter? Now this goes to show the type of person this Shane is. He is a malignant narcissist through and through. He was obsessed and enraged by this rejection and it started manifesting these really ill thoughts towards the entire situation.

41:26 So what he did, he started to plan what would end up being Carly's demise. This is what he wanted. Completely premeditated. It was designed to impact Carly in the worst possible way and impact Carly's family, especially Sonia, in the worst possible way. Because he'd been caught, he'd been found out. They knew exactly who he was. And he and Shane couldn't stand that. He couldn't have it. No. So in February of 2007 contact was re established via Brandon with Carly and he got to the point where he convinced her to meet up with him without telling Sonia.

42:12 Dangerous. Oh yeah. So fucking dangerous. The the way he kind of did that was to say that like, obviously to get to Adelaide him and his dad were going to have to come and obviously he knew that. Even though he was like 19 and could have gone by himself, but whatever, yeah. Carly was like well cuz it she she didn't really want to speak to Shane. I honestly believe that. I don't think she wanted to have interactions with Shane, but it was the only way she was going to get to Brandon was if Shane could.

42:39 Come she still at this point hadn't met face to. Face yes. So this was her opportunity to do that which that then manipulated her to things to tell her mom not will not tell her mom that she was going to meet up with either of them because she knew that her mom would say no like that's not going to happen. Yeah. So what she did was she used something that she has done many, many, many times. They her friends and that would all meet in the city and they would stay at friends houses overnight and quite regularly like, you know that she would say to her mum, you know yeah, we're all gonna go into the city.

43:09 And they and her mum would, had said that she would, they'd all meet there and they'd go to these particular shops that they all liked to do. And it was all, it was a thing, total thing. Because in Sterling there wasn't much to do. So I mean, I think the city was only like 40 minutes on train. Yeah, like, it's not far. No. So they could fairly safely in a big group, go and do that as they would, and then they'd just pick someone's house to stay out the night. Yeah, and they have a whole weekend, you know, of catching up and doing the girl thing and whatever they want to do, which, great.

43:38 We've all done that. All done it absolutely for sure and especially at this age at that time I wouldn't even question it as her mom really didn't until she had to like yeah so the. So Carly gets on this train and goes into the city and she to meet up with with Brandon and this was on. The 18th of February in 2007. Unfortunately, at that point, Carly doesn't return home and so. Well, the first, the first that Sonia actually knows of it is Sonia receives a phone call on her mobile phone and it's from a person who has found Carly's purse.

44:11 And inside Carly's purse, she actually had Sonia's phone number written down. And so this person's rung up and going, oh, I've just found this person. There's AID belonging to Carly. Is this Carly? And anyway, so immediately Sonia was like, oh, something's really, really wrong here because they found the purse about 80 kilometres away from Adelaide, where? It wasn't where she'd said she. Was going to be That's right. It's not like she dropped her purse in the city. And you could kind of explain that away.

44:39 Kind of could set in regardless I think. But it was 80 kilometres from where she from where Sonia thought Karlie was in Port Elliot. Yeah. So this that basically triggered Sonia into an absolute frenzy. She rang all of Carly's friends. None of them said that they had plans, that they'd seen Carly, or that they knew where she was or who she was. Staying there, their place that night, you know, like, no. One knew anything, they hadn't planned anything for that particular weekend. So immediately Sonia has done the right thing.

45:11 She has contacted the police and filed a missing person's report. Good on her. She did the right thing and to the police's credit, they have also taken this quite seriously and fed it out to all of the channels that they need needed to do that now. The next morning on the on the 19th of February in 2007, couple were walking, sorry. A lady was going for a walk and she saw a body face down in a body of water in Horseshoe Bay, which is in Port Elliot. And she couldn't actually physically move this body.

45:45 So she's run to find somebody to help her and she found a fisherman up the beach somewhere. He's come and while he's dragging this girl's body out of the water, the lady was calling 000 and getting an ambulance out. There they performed CPR. Yeah, so they did that. The ambulance came. By the time the ambulance got there, they were able to pronounce the the person deceased. The police really quickly put together that this was likely going to be Carly from the missing persons report in terms of so she was actually wearing different clothes.

46:19 This body had different clothes on it to the to what Sonia reported as being the last clothing that Karlie was wearing, but it was the next day, so it's possible she changed her clothes or very likely that she changed. Her they found that she was dressed in these clothes, but it was kind of like haphazardly dressed. Yeah, so her tracksuit pants were on inside out her. Bra was kind of half clipped. It wasn't completely clipped up. It was like she. Wasn't wearing any underwear, no underwear. We're actually found down the beach a little bit.

46:47 Yeah, yeah. Whether she was redressed in other clothes, we actually don't really know the answer to that. The ambulance officers, and I believe later on then the coroner confirmed this, that Carly had likely only died about 30 minutes before her body was found. That hit me so hard when I heard that. Yeah, they believe she'd likely half an hour before she was found, she was alive. When her autopsy was completed, her cause of death was put down to drowning as a result of craniofacial trauma. They found sand in her lungs.

47:22 So what the coroner concluded was that she was likely suffocated in the sand. Like as in her head has been pushed into the sand, She's inhaled some sand, She's then been beaten. There were 19 separate injuries, about eight of those to her head. Blunt force injuries, which they believed at the time were probably caused from a fist. Yep. Apparently her face was just completely bloodied and bruised. That has knocked her out. Her body's then been placed in the water and she's drowned in that fairly shallow body of water.

47:55 It is just horrific. Absolutely horrific. She'd also been raped and so that that was that was to be was proven to that as well. So Yep. Do we know? I couldn't find this. Do we know whether she was raped before or after she was killed? I assume it must have been before. Well, whether or not they, the person who did that knew that, I don't know. We don't know well. Given that she only passed possibly 30 minutes. She's dead. She was definitely alive, but she was probably unconscious and potentially the perpetrator wouldn't have known whether she was alive or dead.

48:29 Oh. That actually. That actually. Makes. Yeah, I think that's actually worse. Yeah, yeah, that's absolutely disgusting. Yeah. So the police are now starting to investigate this murder. I mean, it's very, very clearly a murder. Yes. And what they found, they actually got again, you know, the use of the media is often a double edged sword. Yeah. But in this case, the media really came through. So that day this went worldwide, Carly's images were being shown from France, Italy, Yeah, through Asia, other parts of Europe and all throughout Australia.

49:05 I remember seeing it myself, but I don't I, I feel like the entire story didn't make its way to Melbourne as much. Like kind of thing like it did would have, but not extensively. Yeah, but I definitely remember her photo and everything. And me too. Yeah, it's, it's that photo. You look at it and you're like, Oh yeah, I know, I remember it. And what that meant was, was that quite a few people contacted Crime Stoppers and reported that they'd seen different things. So yeah, we had, which were then able to be confirmed by police through CCTV footage.

49:37 So we had they'd been to a convenience store where Shane had bought cigarettes. So she was seen with two men, right? Yes. One older man, one younger man. And then obviously Carly, they'd been to a convenience store, bought cigarettes. They'd been, they'd asked about going, where's a good place to get a drink around here, Which is when somebody said there's a pub at Horseshoe Bay. Yeah, it's called the Crown Hotel or something like that. So they've gone there. There's CCTV footage of these three people there.

50:06 Then when they were on the beach that night in Horseshoe Bay at around 839-3930, was it? Yeah, sorry, PM. There were two locals who went swimming and they saw a girl with these two men at Horseshoe Bay. They, I think they left the Bay at about 9:45 and those three people were still there. And yeah, this is where the police are like backing things up with CCTV and all of that kind of thing. They were also seeing like the three of them were identified as being using a pale blue car that was identified that was quite distinctive.

50:40 It was a Mitsubishi Shogun Shogun and when I looked it up, it looks like a Pajero basically, but it's a specific type of car and the colour of a colour is really unique. The other thing that really stood out, and I totally get this because this is my brain does this too, is the number plate was Victorian, yes. And so that really made the car stand out to a lot of passes by, which was really, really helpful. Very full. So we're now with the police. They are combining all of this and it took them about 11 days to put all of this together.

51:11 They've obviously interviewed Sonia as well, Sonia's told them. About on their computer stuff, they've looked through Myspace or Facebook, all that stuff as well at this. Point because at this point they are keeping an open mind. They don't know who's necessarily. Done. This Sonia was. She knew. Yep, she knew and she told them all there was to tell about Shane and Brandon and and that whole connection. So they were able to put all of this together and they also then found that Shane or somebody who had this particular car registered in their name found the address wasn't.

51:43 Registered in Shanes name. Though it wasn't Meg, who was, whose name was it registered in? Registered to a man by the name of Gary Francis Newman. And was Gary Francis Newman and Shane Kane the same person by any chance? Yeah, but Shane Kane and Gary Francis Newman were many other identities too. 202 hundred online identities, including Brandon Kane. So very freaking interesting. This guy. Oh, he's an absolute yes. So they walked in to arrest him at his house in Victoria. Yeah, he was sitting in his at his computer.

52:25 He was logged onto his computer as Brandon Kane. He was actually actively chatting with a 14 year old girl in WA at the time. In WA at the time. Oh yeah. Because you've just gone and murdered 1. So I guess you need to know. Find your next one. He had multitudes of girls on the hook. As we said, he had over 200 online profiles and personalities. The police found this. I can't this, I can't even. But he had a notebook where he would record all of the details so that he could keep his lies straight.

52:54 This. Is it I mean that actually that side of this and it's psychological of like taking away these the how much a piece of shitty is I just you know, the how a brain must work to be able to maintain the lies to get these people. Like there's I don't like the word I'm gonna use here. What an incredible skill set to have and which if only you could use that in a good way instead of this fucked up way. I'm trying to say it really carefully because I I have no respect for him, but that's incredible to be able to maintain all of that information for someone to on the other end of it kind of go, wait, you told me this and now you're telling me that because by no means I don't think there's people on the other end of these calls and these, these chats are stupid that you get sucked in.

53:35 They are being sucked in genuinely by someone who is fucking good at this. Yeah. Yeah, the disgusting thing was the way he'd written about him, the people in this notebook. So Carly was called the Adelaide slut in the notebook, and then he wrote against her name. Resting peace. Like not even rest in peace. He wrote like he's just a fucking idiot. Like he's, you know, he's obviously got a certain amount of smarts, but. Not really. Not really. Exactly. You know what I mean. Yes, he's actually total dead shit in so many other, I mean, in so many other ways, yes.

54:07 What the notebook showed was that, Carly, he obviously wasn't his only victim. There were hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of victims of a time. And then in that present moment as well. Yeah. So he's obviously Gary Francis Newman has been arrested for the murder of Carly. Yeah, he initially denies that. He's like, absolutely not. He denies it for. Denies extensively. A long time, yeah. What they know as well, what the police ascertain, is that the other man that was with him at the time was his son.

54:44 17 year old son who'd. Only just been returned to his custody a month before, yeah. So he had two sons. We had one son living with him who was older, and he then acquired his younger son after being in foster care for many years. Somehow he'd regained custody of him at the age of 17. So they had not had a whole lot to do with each other and didn't know each other that well, I'm assuming. So he had moved back in with him. And yeah, he had approached the oldest son at one stage to try and get him to help him hook these girls in because obviously there were phone calls happening, like he needed a voice and a potentially a face to use to gain access to these girls.

55:30 The oldest son said fuck no, he didn't get involved. The younger one unfortunately said yes to his dad and did get involved. So he was the voice on the phone when he would call Carly. He was the face when he would do online chats and things at times. Most of the time it was he. Wasn't the face of the online? Chat No, sorry, no SO. Gary, we'll call. Him, yeah. Gary had actually downloaded footage of just random this random boy. The bands and things. Sorry. Yeah. And he had. Cut together footage so it looked like it was a webcam.

56:06 Yeah. He. I mean, he was clever with the way he did it. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Because I think that son wasn't in his custody at the time. He didn't have. Like didn't have him to use until a certain point. Until this point where he's like, I actually need someone who's gonna have to pretend to be Brandon to lure Carly. Yes. And so that when Carly gets to us, because I assume, like, we we know he went there. Yeah. Wanting to murder her. Yeah, obviously rape was on his mind as well, so he needed Carly to feel comfortable enough to go with them somewhere so that he could perpetrate what he was planning on perpetrating.

56:40 Absolutely. So, yeah, I mean, look, this 17 year old, he's also arrested. He unfortunately the police didn't kind of do their job here in that he was questioned and he admitted to all of what his involvement was to the point of also raping Carly. Now I say that allegedly because at the time when they had that interview with him, he was not represented legally. So and he was underage. Therefore, therefore that could not be used in his court case. So he was, he was acquitted of all his in part of this, but there is unfortunately no knowledge like Sonia, her mum unfortunately knows what his participation in this was and it was extensive.

57:33 And at 17, how much consent can he give to being a part of it in that, yes, there was a father, adult, you know, authority figure leading him. How much of that did he really want to participate in how much like consent he gave to all? That is a broad question. Age. Yeah. I I mean, I've heard Sonia speak on her thoughts on this and she has very firm belief that he should have had had a conviction. I agree with and I do tend to lean that way, Yes. But I just want to be careful legally that he was not convicted.

58:09 He actually due to not having representation in that initial interview. Now, I believe this person, this young man then went on to perpetrate absolutely severe sexual abuse of girls later in his life. So I, I think in, I mean, he was in juvenile detention awaiting this trial and awaiting the acquittal. But I just think if the system had have worked the way that Sonia wanted it to and the way I personally think it should have, then he wouldn't have been able to harm these other girls. There was no rehabilitation given to him.

58:51 No. He was just acquitted and put back out into society. Yeah. Having participated in and witnessed what he had, I think that's dangerous. That's that's and it's really irresponsible of the system. 100 percent, 100%, yeah.

59:08 So Gary, though, we just should go back a little bit of what sort of person? Yeah, just in terms of him as well, we always say these people are not, they don't appear and just do this stuff at the drop of a hat. There's always prior stuff that's gone on. He was married I believe at a point and it was the his stepdaughter has come out and said that he molested her. His ex-wife has come forward as well saying that yes, that's what occurred. This guy has absolute rap sheet in terms of past of that.

59:41 He was not convicted of it at the time, but it was definitely came out in the trial that that's what his past was. So there's prior to this, he's not just popped out of nowhere to raping people, you know, because there's one thing, not that I'm I'm saying this is OK, but there's one thing to catfish people online, you know, misrepresent yourself and you know, but then there's a whole nother level of what what's going on here as well in terms of rape and murder that that was not, that was not uncommon for him in that respect.

1:00:10 Yeah. It's, it's just absolutely horrific. Yeah, absolutely horrific. The thing that sealed Gary's fate, so his defence basically, was that he didn't do it, that the only reason all of that stuff was on his computer was because he was researching for a book that he was writing. He's he got up on the stand and said this shit. This isn't just like, yeah, his lawyer actually wanted to be removed from his twice. Yeah, and, and they're like, no, because it would have led to a mistrial and they would have had to have started again.

1:00:40 It would cost the taxpayer too much money. And I mean, this was an open and shut case. That CCTV footage of him with her like an hour before she died, Like, fuck off. Yeah. So. But the thing that actually sealed his fate was because so once the CCTV footage came in, he was like, OK, like he kind of had. To have CCTV. But he's like, but I didn't intend to kill her. Yeah, right. So not premeditate. But premeditated, like they found the police found the fingertip of a latex glove that had his fingerprint on the inside of it.

1:01:09 So they're like, this was 100% premeditated. You brought gloves. So that was that sealed his fate. That absolutely sealed his fate. And he was sentenced to life imprisonment with a 29 year non parole period. He's actually eligible for parole in 2036. That's too soon. Yes and he'll only well only be like 80 yeah. I don't feel like that's no. I really hope we I feel like, well, look, I mean, he might not get parole it we're not saying he's definitely gonna get out there and I would hope that he won't, but hopefully just.

1:01:33 Die. Surely. Really, really painful. Death. I might get to him in jail. Justice Trish Kelly, who presided over the case, she said Gary Newman deserves a life behind bars for his grossly perverted plan to deceive, seduce and murder Carly during the during the trial as well. If something wasn't going his way, he'd fake having a seizure. Yes, a full interesting personality. Like, I mean, Oh my God. She also said in the trial you were sexually obsessed with Miss Ryan when you could not get your own way, you prepared to and did kill her.

1:02:03 Yeah. She also stated that a child who fell in love with the idea of the handsome Brandon Kane, the real man, was an overweight, balding, middle-aged pedophile. Totally nailed it. Drop Mike girl. Yep. Look, the legacy that has come from this is something I think we should talk about now because yes, Sonia, to her absolute credit, has taken the most tragic and awful thing that any parent should ever have to endure and has really turned it into something where she can get, there's some positive, there's education, there's like honouring Carly's legacy.

1:02:39 And I think for Sonia, it's that she, she didn't want Carly to die for no reason. This has been her her reason. I suppose. Well, it's her reason to go on, isn't it? I mean. This case has changed Australian law, or for the better. Yes, Previous to this, lying about your age to a child online wasn't illegal. Now that Carly's Law has been enacted, that is now a legal, a criminal offence. Even if you have no criminal intent from lying to them about your age, that there is. It doesn't matter what your intent is behind lying, it is still criminal to do that.

1:03:14 Which is a good thing. So what that means is that police are actually then now able to enact on people who are perpetrating these crimes online before they enter the physical space because that's what happened here. Like online, OK, the damage was one thing, but then once obviously it came when they were meeting face to face. That's where things really. Because what we should have said, I didn't. We didn't say this at the time. So when when that incident happened about the birthday, Sonia did go to the police, like even though she threatened that to, to Shane at the time, she did go to the police and the police actually said to her, look, there is nothing we can do, you know?

1:03:51 So because there's not actual physical evidence of all these sorts of things. However, if this law was in place, they may have been able to get him on that at that point. They would have been able to arrest him before any of this. So that's where this new law really would have assisted in this situation and has and will continue to assist these cases. In the future, so much to Sonia for that. Yes, she also founded the Carly Ryan Foundation. The mission of the foundation is to educate children about online grooming to support families.

1:04:23 And also they they have a push and a pretty big voice in terms of legislation changes to make this stuff safer for our for our children. She does a lot of speaking events. She speaks with schools and universities, with law enforcement, governments. She's a real advocate in this space for, for our kids. One of her quotes is that Carly's legacy was going to be more than her ending, so she wanted not to be remembered for the brutal end of her life, but for like her legacy to be this to be a positive change for for kids all around Australia and even internationally.

1:05:00 Now I know the Foundation has supported several governments around the world to make significant legislative changes to benefit children in those countries as. Well, well, The thing is, because of how the Internet works, it needs to be international. Yeah, because it does cross all those borders in terms of that. I mean, someone can be international Interstate and be grooming someone. So just because you don't live in the same country doesn't mean they can't impact them. There are plenty of cases that are still continuing, you know, through this where they can, by grooming someone online, they can murder someone in fact, by creating that person to commit suicide.

1:05:41 We know there have been cases of that happening. Absolutely this happens and it's it happens regularly. So these laws have got to help internationally, not just I mean, us as Australia or Victoria Royal SA having laws doesn't isn't enough. No. So I mean Sonia is amazing how she continues this work to, you know, assist in that realm. She's also being a big advocate and a big proponent of of the social media ban to under 16. That's been a big part of her advocacy work of late. I think a lot more needs to be done in this space, But there's it's not perfect.

1:06:14 It's a step, but it's, you know, there's a lot of work that still needs to be done to really cement that in. But at least I feel like there's recognition there, the fact that we're taking these steps. Is it perfect? No. Will it ever be perfect? Probably not. But it's just something, if nothing else, that's made parents more aware. Possibly, yeah. And yeah, we need to be so on top of this. I feel like from a perspective of parents, there's parents who have tons of knowledge and in that knowledge you understand still that you can't control all of it.

1:06:50 And then there's. Parents. That's part of it, isn't it? Yeah, Part of that is knowing that you don't know everything and you can't control everything. No, but then there's an element of parents that, you know, do the whole like, I can't understand this. I can't control it anyway, kind of go for it because what can I do will be Yeah, and I I can understand that, but I feel like personally I want to know as much as I possibly can to have at least. Some control of it. It's our responsibility as parents.

1:07:18 Just find out about it and know as much as we can. I feel like there's our kids as much as we can. Too many people who don't engage in this space with naivety of like, look, that's for them to sort out kind of thing. And it'll be fine because I mean, they're all equally going to be in the same danger as each other online, whether or not the parent knows anything or not. And I, I can't have it. I want every parent to engage with this and have knowledge. Yeah, because what goes on in that household with no knowledge and my household with the amount of knowledge I can comprehend, I feel like I'm then being unsupported because my kids are still interacting with that child too.

1:07:56 Yeah, that's it. It's really hard. It is really, really complex. Yeah. I think, you know, for those who maybe don't really understand it, we've got to look at it like, you know, when we were kids, we had that stranger danger kind of talk and we'd have, we need to be having conversations like that. Yeah, but about Internet and about online. Absolutely. I am so honest with my kids around. Why I'm scared? Because I want them to have fear of it. Yeah, because if they don't have the fear of it, then they don't.

1:08:24 They don't protect then I don't understand why I'm. I'm being a bitch, you know? I say that to them all the time. I'm not saying this to be a bitch. I'm just saying this because I'm trying to protect. You. I'm also a bitch. Yeah, well, remember, better the bitch you know than the one you don't. But I'm very honest about the fact of like, you know, that there are people on the other end of those those screens that are not your friend and they are not there to be nice to you. But that that's very true.

1:08:49 What do you think made Carly so vulnerable to this? Well, I think the fact that, I mean, this is such, it was such a new space at the time, yeah, but we can't overlook that fact 'cause this is still equally as as dangerous. Now we know more. Yeah, so, but at the time, definitely that was an element of it. But she's a 15 year old girl. 14 year old girl I mean. It's age. It was her first serious relationship. She was in love. You know, that's a massive, massive thing. There was that emotional control, that emotional connection that she had with this person.

1:09:17 And, and yeah, I think she was just almost ripe for it. Absolutely. Well, this is the thing. Gary made a character that was literally targeting the Carly's of the world, and he was picking who he was. He targeted first. The best friend realized for whatever reason she wasn't into it. It didn't quite match with her. So we tried the next one. You know, he he somehow infiltrated a group of girls of Carly's friends who were similar ilk, you know, music, emo, you know, the things that he had already built Brandon's profile around that he was like, right, one of them will be the right one, you know, and he.

1:09:58 It's disgusting how he then had all of those other girls that he was manipulating. Created other profiles. Profiles and other personalities to. Pull them in. Just so manipulative. Absolutely. So, so manipulative. It's it's, I mean, look, and he also created beyond those, the character of Brandon. Obviously there was linked to that was then the father being Shane, but there was also another one that was Brandon's brother. Yeah. And so it made it safe. Yeah. You know, this was a real person because he's got these other connections on his profile of he had like his friends and he was profiling.

1:10:31 He didn't just profile the character that was going to lure or whoever. It was literally invented entire an entire web of people around that to give it reality, which just blows my mind. That side of it really blows my mind as to how you can keep track of all that for that. That's Brandon Profile and that's all the people around him. But then there's Ex Profile and there's all the people around him to get, you know, that type of girl. Blows my mind. Totally blows my mind. Totally. Disgusting. Oh, totally.

1:11:02 It's just horrible. Yeah. Horrible, horrible. Oh God, I think I look at this situation. I think really aside look, aside from inviting him to stay the night, Sonia did all the right things. Yes, Sonia went and met him at a public place, got a feel for it. He was presenting a certain persona. I don't think we said this at the time that it turned out that that that license, the identity he had and the logo on his T-shirt were all. Fake, but he was never in the SAS. I mean, that's probably fairly. He went so extensively into this.

1:11:37 So so planned. So planned, so planned. Yeah, it's disgusting. Yeah. So Sonia did the right things, You know, She did all the things that I think anyone would advise you to do if that was the case. Yeah. And yet it still ended up the way it ended up. No. And then and even to the point of like as much as Sonia had like banned Carly from talking to Shane and Brandon and that her and Carly were talking about that openly and she they had such a strong relationship that she even couldn't get to her daughter in that final moment to not let her go to visit.

1:12:18 Brandon, because he was a master manipulator. Absolutely. He knew what he had to do to make sure Carly didn't tell Sonia what was going on. Yeah, because he knew Sonia would say no, you can't go. And to use that against a mother and daughter, like, I just find that so sickening. Like, that, you know, that at that age, they're going to push boundaries on their parents. And I can use that. Like, what? What can you do with a teenage child to get them to understand that as a parent, you might know better?

1:12:51 And all you want is what's best for them. You're not necessarily doing things to punish them or to. Ruin their fun. Ruin their lives. Yeah, always here to ruin their lives. I mean, let's let's be under the. Perhaps of parenting? Probably think about it everyday. How am I gonna ruin their lives? That's right. Yeah, that's exactly right. Yeah. I think that kind of brings us to the end today. If you want to know more about the Carly Ryan Foundation, the website is really, really great. Yeah, and there's a lot of information that on there.

1:13:17 So just Google Carly Ryan Foundation and the website will pop up. There's some really important work going on there. So, and it's certainly something that I've had a read over and we'll be discussing with my kids. I think that every teenager should be accessing that. I don't I, I sort of feel like maybe it's more extensively known in South Australia and where Sonia speaks and all that sort of thing because it's where she's her hometown is. But I feel like we need more of that here in Melbourne. I'm not, I don't know.

1:13:41 There's there, there are bits and pieces that we have here, but I feel like genuine stories first hand are what kids need to hear because sometimes it seems too distant. That's not not, that's not me, that's not what happens happened to me. But just actually hear from Sonia and Hikaru's story makes it real. Yep, I couldn't agree with you more. All right, well, thank you everybody for joining us for another episode. You can check us out on the socials on Facebook, Instagram and not TikTok. You know we've been banned for life.

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