Episode 81 - Elizabeth Smart

0:15 Welcome back to Crime Besties to another really big episode today it's a. Big 1 today I know, but I have enjoyed researching it so me too. Yeah, it's, it's a fascinating case in so many aspects. And definitely, yeah, we were just talking before we hit record that both of us have more notes than we've probably had in a long time for an episode. So strap in. Yeah. But this is one that I didn't know about when it happened, which weirdly enough, I feel like I must really go on to rock again sometimes that.

0:46 But I know I've, I've always known about this case, but I didn't know all the details until I've done this research this week. Really. So this has all been a bit like, oh, now there's so many things that'll make sense of like what I've known about it. If, all right, dots have connected this week that I'm like, wow, amazing. Everything together. Yeah, it's amazing. It is. Absolutely. It's a It's a crazy story. Yes. Yeah, it's interesting. But before we get into today's episode, let me know how your week has been.

1:13 What have you been up to? Well, I know as. You said I'm like, Oh my God, there is something I need to like say to everyone I need to thank and I'm gonna I'm gonna have to find out who it was. Now this is really gonna bug me because I need to thank the amazing listener who gave me the best advice last week in our is this. Cricket related advice. Cricket related advice. I did see that. I think I where was. It on Spotify itself I think because I. Remember replying to it going this is actual genius.

1:41 Well, I read it going. I've never heard this before and if this works well, but like I'm I was still trepidatious going into it. Kind of going really really. So tell me. Oh my God. So Wednesday night, I didn't have my kids at home. And I'm like, perfect time for me to just give it a try calmly and, you know, see what happens. So the thing was that I was advised was to stick the freaking crickets in the fridge because they in the cold going to like a dormant stage of, like, sleep. Just love this.

2:13 So I was like, how long do I leave them in? And like, so she'd said, like, like an hour or something like that. Oh, wow. Yeah. Which I was like, So we'll see. Half an hour. Like, that's enough. You have enough patience to wait an hour. I know. So it was Jenkins, dot, AJ. OK. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. So yeah. So they, they do they, they, they I pull them out of the fridge and I'm like, Oh my God. Opening the lid. Go. Hold on, you put the entire container? Yeah, in the fridge. So they're all dopey as fuck when they when you get them out, Yeah.

2:43 So I open it kind of going, I don't know, are they gonna leap out at me? You know, and I'm carefully opening a lid, you know, going I'm like, Oh my, no, you can just open the lid. And they all look dead. Like they're, it's so weird. And they're like laying there. I can have to go and get more crickets now. I know a few of them are like, you know, the legs are kind of twitching. And so I'm like, OK, so they're not dead, but I was able to just like pluck them out with my tweezer things and the tongs that you use and like pluck them out to the other container and shake that and give it a bit of a whip around and get the dust on them.

3:09 And then I just sat the container for like 5-10 minutes and they all started waking up and like jumping back around which I then just let them loose in the in the enclosure and that's. Amazing. My boys watched me do it last night. I said some you watch me do this tonight and then it then it is all on you. Yeah, you can do this now. Won't be picking. Crickets out of your lounge room for the next however long my huh? For how long do Marshall? I don't know, I feel like a long time. Especially when they're really well cared for you.

3:38 Well, I said to the boys last night, this has actually made made me like the frogs more. Like I can actually deal with them now. Yeah, because it's, it was always the crickets. I said that to Mason because Mason's so obsessed with frogs. They are life to him. And so when he said to me that's what he wanted for his birthday, the only real thing that was really making me hesitate was the fact that fucking dealing with crickets. And but this has actually made it OK this. Is a non issue. Yeah. Oh, thank you, Jenkins.

4:04 Thank you, Jenkins. Oh, my God. I know they were blown away last night. The boys. They were just. They found it the best thing ever. That's so. Good. Yeah, So thank you. Put him in the fridge. Put him in the fridge. How good is that? I love, I love that our community is coming together and helping us out with some life and fun. So. Many tips, but no, she saved my sanity. I swear to God because I was so sick I was actually getting the itches like throughout the day kind of going. I feel like this cricket's on me bad so thank you so.

4:32 When you hear about, like, people having lice, yes, please or something, and it just makes us yeah, yeah, yeah. It had been like I was sitting watching TV because that's when we were, we'd done it one night and the creates had jumped out everywhere and I jumped on four or more of them. I collected them and I'm like, I was sitting there watching TV the other night on my own kind of going. Did I certainly move something? Move. Oh, you're seeing things. Which I I was certain I'd got them all. Somewhat certain.

4:59 Somewhat. Somewhat. Not 100%. Certain. No, it's still in the back of my eye. Like, you know, are they, are they still here? Are they still around? Oh, I love it. I love it so good. Thank you. I really. Appreciate that. Yeah. It's good because these stories are good. Because it's not me chasing crickets around my house. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So let's leave it at that. Yeah, yeah. I went to school assembly this morning because my youngest is their student voice team captain for his class. He was so excited this morning.

5:32 He woke up early. He was dressed by like 10 past, not even dressed fully ready to go to school by 7:10. It's like, mom, what jobs do you want me to do? Because Oh my God, that's what SVT captains do. They do all the jobs. Oh, they do the cooking and the. Cooking. And taking all. The bins out, so empty all the bins. Yeah. So he did that. I don't think he quite got to the recycling. I don't know if anyway I will be chatting to him about that later, but then at this morning when he got his badge, he was like a mum.

6:04 It's so much bigger than I thought it was and I just love it. Oh my God. I love it. Oh, Brody was very excited for him getting that today. So gorgeous. I really love love it. Just beautiful. So cute. I love the school assemblies and just the kids 'cause out, like the students run them for the most part at our school and God, I just love it. It was great. Along to the school song, did you did? Of course, do all the moves. Yeah, of course. Yeah. So that was that was a highlight of my week because he was just so excited.

6:36 That's the best. Love it. Yep, looks very good, so good. And we've got like an exciting weekend coming up, don't we? We do. We've got we're celebrating a friend's birthday tomorrow night, which will be amazing, which will be so good. Very nice, we have to go out for a nice nice bit of food and wine. Yeah, cocktails, wine, whatever. Float. Oh, can't wait. God, that just that sentence. Whatever. Like what I whatever we want to do, it's gonna be lovely. We've been given strict instructions at the on Sunday morning that our friend is being taken care of, that she can be as drunk as she likes.

7:10 Love. That Watch out, I. Don't know if you really meant those words, yeah. If you're in that area Saturday night and you see us out and about. You'll hear us, yeah. Oh absolutely. I've got the voices that carry. We're so loud. Yes, the other, sorry, was actually in the car and you know, does your podcast play a like on your phone if you plug your phone in? Yeah, it just plays the next. Episode plays as soon as I get in the car, yeah. So the other day, get in the car and the first thing that came on was one of our episodes and it was.

7:43 And obviously we'd been listening to music or something in the previous time we were in the car because it was so loud. And I'm like, Oh my God, that's horrible. Like that grating sound. I'm like, oh, turn it off, turn it off. Oh God. Anyway, well, it always like, 'cause it throws me, 'cause I only ever listen to podcasts at minimum 1.5. Yeah. And so it makes us sound even worse. Yeah, so. It does, it really does. I I listen usually on 1.2. I can't listen at one to anything, no. I now can't. I cannot listen to anything else it.

8:15 Doesn't Nope it. Doesn't get there. I need it fast. Yeah, yeah. And I'm, I'm usually A2, to be really honest, I usually listen to things on A2, but 1.5 is my standard. I leave it and then I'm like, oh, how much, how long can I stand this? And then I and then I usually up it. Yeah, like I just, I don't know what it is, but yeah. So I, but I get in the car and that same thing will happen. And it's like, Oh my God. Like it's our voices. And I have to turn it onto something else. Like I can't. Yeah, I can't.

8:41 Tell. You how you guys do it? Best comment we've ever had.

8:50 Yeah. Anyway, should we get into today's episode? Oh. My gosh, yeah, we have got a lot to get through. So a. Lot to get through. Let's jump right in. I think this will be. Peter will be so happy he'll barely lift the station. Really quickly, actually, Speaking of Peter. I can't help it. No, he so during the week he's like, can you do me a favour and can you do an episode that's like not bad, not horrible. As in like not. Not about murder and children and. Not like I think that we're bad at doing this.

9:21 No, no. No, no, no, he he thinks we're really good at doing good. He's not wrong, but he he's like, can you do like another Ashley Madison or something? Oh yeah. Yeah, it's like I think you need a light one, but I was like, OK, well tell us what case to do because I actually don't know so. If anyone has any. Lighter suggest. This one is awful. I'm not like the one I'm about to. Do I don't feel like this is gonna get Peter because of the things that happened while. But at least there is A at the ending is, you know, relatively positive, so.

9:52 Yeah, maybe. Peter, let's let us know if this is enough. If not people, can you come up with your suggestions of like a slightly lighter case or a little more tongue in cheek maybe? Maybe he just needs to be a Patreon because we don't get quite so gruesome there. That's. Actually very true. Don't I Pete? Maybe you need to be a Patreon. Put your money where your mouth is.

10:16 All right, let's get into today's case. So today we are discussing the kidnapping of Elizabeth Smart. She is, you know, I mean, she's come out the other end. There's a Netflix documentary that came out this year, in 2026. And it kind of goes back and explores exactly what happened to her, but then gives a lot more context around what her life has been since the kidnapping. Because there was a period of time there where I guess she did stay silent in that. She wasn't doing as many press things. She was really focusing on her foundation and all of those kinds of things.

10:52 And she's also became a mum, so she obviously had a lot going on. I found watching that documentary really engaging. Like, I thought it was very well done. I love the fact that it was an hour and a half. It didn't go for fucking 15 episodes that it didn't need. It didn't go for three hours like some movies and stuff, which drives me fatty when something that is 3 hours could have been done in an hour and a half. I just felt like it was very well done. There's not no need for a three-part series sometimes like you know, yeah, that's it.

11:23 In some ways I kind of this could. As we've said, this is a big one. There's so much in it, but they told the story really well in that in that time frame with lots of detail. But at the same time, yeah, it was, it was concise, Yeah. Yeah. And all the relevant stuff was said in there. Yes. So Elizabeth was part of the Smart family, obviously. So she had her mom, Lois and her dad, Ed or Edward Smart, and they lived in Salt Lake City in Utah. Now, we've spoken about Salt Lake City a lot on this, on this, on this podcast, because we bloody love The Real Housewives and of Salt Lake City, Yes, and Secret Lives of Mormon Wives.

12:07 But also just Salt Lake City. I am intrigued by Salt Lake City for so many reasons. Yeah, Utah probably in general, I guess maybe. But it's just so picturesque and beautiful and that beautiful. The life, I don't know it's. Incredibly affluent, yes. I mean, I think there are parts of Salt Lake City that are slightly less so, but in general, it's a very affluent area. Yeah, more than 50% of people who live in Salt Lake City, members of the Church of Latter Day Saints, and they're Mormons. And that, I guess, really puts instead the tone and the vibe of the city.

12:40 And the smart family were Mormons. They were members of the church and they were devout. Yes, when I say that they adhere to all of the Mormon traditions. And like when you watch Secret Lives of Mormon wives, not necessarily they're not necessarily adhering to all these things, but I'm talking about, you know, they don't drink coffee, There's no caffeine, there's no drugs. There's no, they go no alcohol, they go to church. They're they're really committed to their faith and to the and to the teachings of the Church.

13:13 And I think when I think a lot of what comes through this case can be explained by the fact that the family was so devout. Yeah. So basically, Ed was a real estate broker. He had two businesses of which he was the only employee of both of these businesses that he owned. So one was a real estate brokerage and the other one was a mortgage broker, I believe. Right. And they were very, very well off. Ed's businesses were doing very well. However, he had made a very poor real estate investment, and he'd lost a significant amount of money about a year before Elizabeth was kidnapped.

13:58 Yeah. And what that meant was that the family was. They weren't destitute by any stretch of the imagination, but they did. They did decide to sell their house. Yeah. In order to repay some of that debt and also because, well, Lois says she actually wanted a much simpler life. The house they lived in was a 7 bedroom. Absolutely. It had a racket ball court inside. Oh, wow. Oh, I didn't realize that. Yeah. Wow. Like I'm telling you, massive, massive home. Yeah, it's beautiful. Like, I mean, they had five kids, but 6655 she was.

14:33 Yeah, no, she they had Charles, Andrew, William, Edward, and then Mary, Catherine and Elizabeth. Oh, OK, yeah. So they had six kids, four boys and two girls. Oh. Gosh, yeah, I know. Maybe maybe she was one and maybe she had five siblings. That's. More. Yeah, Yep, that's. Yeah, maybe would have. Yeah, so basically, and Lois was a stay at home mum and did, I mean, I, you know, did everything that needed to be done with her six children. Yeah. Yeah, she was. She was a really, really dedicated mum. Sorry.

15:03 I was talking about the real estate investment. So Lois says that she also wanted to downsize because the house was really huge. It was a lot to maintain and they actually wanted to move to a cabin in the woods somewhere. When I say cabin, I think it was very nice. Yeah, right. But it was a much simpler way to live, I think. Yeah. OK. Their kids were growing up, and I think they just wanted a little more like close family time. OK. And that was sort of the impetus for them to get their house ready to be put on the market.

15:36 Right. So Ed and Lois were hiring contractors. They would hire people. This was something that was fairly common, I believe, but there was a spot that you could go to where people who are kind of looking for work, I'm thinking of it as a 1990s air Tasker, but not online, not online, You know, people wanting work for the day would go to this particular street or particular spot and and anyone who needed a job would go be like, hey, I'll pay you 40 bucks today if you come and rake up all my leaves and I don't know, do whatever needed to be done around the house.

16:11 Yes. And so at that, they had done that and those had actually done that. Where they did it, like a lot. That was something they, yeah, they were charitable people in that way. I guess in that they were, they preferred to give someone a leg up, you know, and give someone a bit of a job like that rather than go and find someone who's got plenty of work on already or yeah. Yeah. And I mean, I guess that plays into their. Faith as well. Yeah, they. Wanted to help other people. That's right. There so they were getting their house essentially ready for sale, but even in doing so they still the house was on the market and they did have potential buyers coming through throughout this time as well.

16:48 Even though there were you know small renovations still taking place to get the house really ready. The real estate agents if they had anyone who was kind of interested in a seven bedroom home they could actually be brought them through. So when you're thinking about the house in this context, there was, there were a lot of people unknown to the family potentially, yeah, engaging within the home. Yeah, coming through that home. Yeah, yeah. With legitimate reason to be there. So we come to the the 5th of June in 2002, and Elizabeth was 14 years old at the time.

17:26 She was lying in bed. So she and her sister, Mary Catherine, shared a bed and a bedroom and and an actual bed as well, a double bed. And they were asleep. Apparently, according to Elizabeth, she'd been reading a story to Mary Catherine that night. Mary Catherine, I think, was six years or five years her junior. She's 9. Yeah, OK. And so Elizabeth had been reading her story. They just seemed like such lovely siblings. Yes. Beautiful. Yeah, I imagine if I ever had a sister, that's exactly how I would want my relationship with my sister to be.

18:02 But basically in the middle of the night, we know it was probably somewhere around 2:00 in the morning, a man presses a knife to Elizabeth's throat and basically says to her, if you make a sound, I will kill you. Now Mary Catherine pretends to be asleep. I think she was. Well, she says she was paralyzed in terror. And apparently this man allows Elizabeth to put some shoes on. Elizabeth went to put slippers on, but he's like, no, no, those shoes meaning like her runners, basically. So I mean that.

18:44 Interesting. Something doesn't it, about what's then to come. Elizabeth. Sorry. Mary. Catherine is, as I said, is paralyzed with fear, but also this. She doesn't know what to do. She's nine years of age. She almost thinks it's she's dreaming or it's a nightmare. She waits. So there's a grandfather clock upstairs where all of the bedrooms are, and she remembers hearing it chimed twice. Yeah. So at least two hours, if not longer, have passed, and she finally plucks up the courage to run down the hallway and go to her mum and dad's room.

19:23 Yeah, Ed says that when Mary Catherine wakes them up, it is 3:58 AM on his clock, on his digital clock next to his bed. Yes. And they are immediately. He's like, Oh no, she's had a bad dream. They go to the girls bedroom and of course Elizabeth isn't there. They then rush around to have a look in the house. And with that, Ed rings 911 at 4 O 1:00 AM. Now, I can't even imagine the panic that we've set in to wake up and not have one of your children there. Absolutely immediately the police are on this.

20:02 They arrive as like very, very quickly. Detectives are called in very, very quickly. Yes. And even the children, the what is it? What are they called? Like the children's crime people are calling and they're all at the house before 5:00 AM. Yeah, right. Yeah. So it's it's a very quickly enacted thing. Things like this don't happen in Salt Lake City. It's, as we said, because it's a predominantly Mormon community. People are nice, it's safe. There are, you know, it's a very family oriented community.

20:37 And just the night before Elizabeth went missing, she and Mary Catherine had gone for a run like down to the local park, the local running track. And Lois and Ed felt more than comfortable to let them do that. They did that all the time with a nine and AI mean a 14 year old I can understand but even have. The 9 year old. So it wasn't even an issue. No. So when when they did come step, when they're looking for Elizabeth, what they did find was that and what triggered them to go and go, yeah, this is not good.

21:08 Was it? When they walked into the kitchen, they saw that the wire window, the fly wire of the window in the kitchen had been slashed open, Slashed. So that was able to be moved open that window. Lois had been at the kitchen. She'd cooked dinner that night and had burnt some of it, so had opened that kitchen window to let some of the smell out kind of thing. So she knew that she'd left that window open. But then to then see it slashed was like the trigger of like, whoa, when someone's taking it, which on the other side of that, which she wouldn't have been able to see from where she was.

21:41 But like, there was a chair that was put up against that window as well, sort of indicating someone being able to climb up and climb in through that window and maybe out again by that way. Yeah. So that was sort of when they realized that she was gone and gone. Gone. Oh. My God, I can't even imagine. Yeah. No. Instant panic would set in now because they are such a close knit family unit. And so I'm talking like extended family as well, like Ed's family in particular are very, very close. Yeah. And so family were notified pretty much straight away as well.

22:16 So there were actually quite a lot of people who came onto the scene very early on now. Yeah, again, these are people who had nothing but the best intentions. They wanted to help the family, be there to support the family. But it was a crime scene, and it did impede on certain things happening quickly. And because the police are trying to, like, figure out who's here, what's going on. Yeah. And set up, like, and establish some boundaries within the house and. Yeah. And then like discovering the window that happened when there were other people still in the house.

22:53 No, she, they saw that when they saw what that morning when they were looking for her, they saw that, right? That was what triggered them to call the police, right? OK. Yeah, no, they didn't know. I don't think they knew about the chair on the other side, right? But internally they could. They saw that from inside then. OK, Yeah. So I mean, yeah, the police straight away do get get onto things and they they get a Bloodhound to come very, very quickly as well, because they want to be able to track Elizabeth scent and what the Bloodhound does.

23:22 Apparently they really value his this this bloodhound's work. Like he's amazing stock apparently. Yeah, he's able to track so back up behind the their house at the time. It's very different now because it's all very developed now, but it was just basically a mountain they're. Literally backed onto a mountain. Like, yeah, it was like, incredible. The Bloodhound tracked her Elizabeth scent over the back fence and up through to where there was a road or a clearing where cars would drive. I don't know that it was a road.

23:50 I think it was more a dirt track. Yeah, yeah. And at that point, the dog loses the scent. So the police assume at that point that she's either being taken in a car from that, from that area or something like that's happened. They also then the dog does pick up Elizabeth's scent from where they were running around that running track the night before. Yeah, obviously they were able to sort of explain that. Away and figure out why no. Scent was there. The one towards the hill was the more accurate one of their path that evening, yeah.

24:21 So because they think that Elizabeth's been placed into a car, the FBI become involved. Yeah. Now, I, I remember I heard something on a podcast I was listening to about this, where they said when a child is abducted and they get in a car, you've got to assume they're traveling about a mile a minute. And so with that, the police are like, OK, well, it's very likely then, because Salt Lake City is actually really close to, I think it's Wyoming. And oh, what's the other state? But not far, like by car less than an hour away to Illinois, I think to two different states.

24:58 So the police, the FBI called in because the police like very likely she's been over. State lines. Now, when the FBI get involved, obviously they do all of the things that they need to do. But there's a police officer in Salt Lake City who kind of takes more upon himself to then look more locally and to really focus his energy on seeing what's actually happened close to home. Yes. And with that, they get helicopters heat. Well, so that heat seeking radars. Yeah. They get aeroplanes in the air, apparently by this stage.

25:39 So this is now into the early hours of the morning. I think this is about four hours after she was reported missing. Words started to get around. And there were people, this community of people who had ATVs who I think there were like 55 of them in the end. Wow. Yeah, who convened and were going along these mountain tracks to try and call out for her, see if they can find her. Now, Elizabeth reports that on that first day, she heard people calling out her name in the woods. Yeah. She was threatened with a knife to her throat to not respond and that if anyone came into the camp that they would be killed.

26:20 Yes. So she couldn't draw any attention to the fact that she was there, because then she'd be responsible for the death of whoever came looking for her. Yeah, they can't. They haven't worked out who, whose voice it was. It was calling out to her. But they're fairly convinced it was her uncle. Yeah. Which is just. Oh, God, Can you imagine? You were that close to finding her? And I mean, oh God, she. Says that the voice seemed far away, but if if she could hear him then he could have heard her. Yeah, it's so close.

26:49 It's terrifying. I mean, in all of these, you know, these so far, even in this of like the moments of like her sister and her in the in the house or at that moment where she you could call out to someone. But I can completely understand why you wouldn't, because that fear of what that person could do with that knife within a millisecond is absolutely enough to make sure that you know, you're safer to not have called out, you know, like, so completely understand that. If an adult with a knife says you don't do something, you don't do.

27:19 Something yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I it's so hard to know like in these moments of like, you know, what ifs of like if she had of either way, what would have happened, But so. Many what ifs. So many what ifs with this. Absolutely. But in that particular moment, I always take myself back to the thought of like, I think she did the right thing. I absolutely will back her. That little girl was amazing. Oh, she she's amazing in this whole story. But in that little moment, to not have screamed or whatever in protection of her sister and her, the rest of her family, you know, your instincts would kick in to me to think that you would scream.

27:53 But she had the forethought to go, no, don't. And I really think it was the right decision at the time, you know, in all of this, because I think the outcome could have been way worse. I think it I think it would have changed the outcome. Definitely, absolutely right. Yeah. And maybe not for the better, like. Yeah, yeah, that's exactly right. It's just absolutely. You can't imagine as a nine, you can't imagine as an adult going through no, let alone as a nine year old little girl. And this is the thing.

28:23 So obviously we get to this point in there, like to the police, you got to start thinking out who could do this. And one of so obviously you've got to start internally first. You know that who who would want to do this? That could it be someone who's known to Elizabeth? So the family are coming out to the media and like obviously putting out please to the community, you know, to look for Elizabeth. So I guess on that perspective, they're doing all the right things that, you know, no one's like glaringly obviously that's the person who's done this because they're hiding away or have disappeared.

28:53 There's no one glaringly obvious to that point what they do look at obviously her father, you know, did he, you know, is this a cover up of a murder and all those sorts of things. They were able to clear him relatively with took ties, but they did do that. He ended up, I believe it was. So Elizabeth was kidnapped at say, you know, he found out at 4:00 AM, Yeah, I believe that night, by that night at about 9:00 PM, his father actually. So Ed's father, yeah, took him to hospital because he was beside, beside himself, yes.

29:26 And had him committed, Yep. On a 24 hour hold or something like that, because he was, he, he was not coping, No. So that did delay the police being able to fully interview him. Obviously they've done their preliminary chats with members of the family during that day, but in the immediate instance, they were actually more worried about finding Elizabeth because the more time that goes past, the further she's potentially gone. Yes so, and also the other horrific statistic yes, is that in most kidnapping cases, people are killed within the first 3 hours after being kidnapped.

30:01 So they obviously had that on their mind as well. There was an absolute sense of urgency when, you know, the day had unfolded and still everyone's looking for Elizabeth, obviously then they're like, right. We need to start from the middle. Yeah. And work, start from the centre, work our way out. Yeah. Who's the first person? Of course it's Ed. Of course it has to be. It has to be your dad and then her uncles and then, you know, going out from there. But I found it really interesting, like when they looked at because they actually ended up doing like polygraphs on the uncles and one of them in particular failed it.

30:32 Now this is TomTom. Oh my God. Everyone's got an uncle like Tom. So when I mean, and when I, I saw it on the, on the documentary, what he said to the media, I, I, I looked at that and went, I know he's not the perpetrator of this, like, you know, like we know that now, but at the time, holy fuck, he was guilty as shit like. You look at him like, Oh my God, something like he's like, everyone's got their secrets, everyone's got their issues. I don't think this person's a bad person. Yeah. Everyone just really loves Elizabeth because, you know, she's so beautiful.

31:05 Yeah. And there was so many things that you were like, dude. Apparently at the end of that interview, his wife said to him, you fucked the family. Yeah.

31:16 And. Yes he did. He did because it made them look guilty as fuck. And the problem with that was at the time they needed the community, they needed the search parties. Need to be looking elsewhere. That's it. And what that interview did was it really dwindled the number of people who were like, we don't feel guilty. We don't feel, we don't feel like we need to support this family almost because you know, we've got him like. It's what a fucking idiot. Like well. Seriously, I really understand where he came from when he explained it right?

31:44 And I feel for him desperately now. Now I feel like I need to take my little judgy hat off of like a couple of different cases as well. Like he said explained how he was he had not slept in days at that point. He so then taking a polygraph at that point, he was he did. He loved Elizabeth. He was his niece who's so special to him, which you know, we can all I'm sure I've got nieces and children that we love as our own that aren't necessarily our own child kind of thing that you like feeling for this for everyone and yourself and your love for that child.

32:13 How desperate would you feel and how exhausted you would be with no sleep worrying about all of this? He was not in a good way when they polygraphed him, let alone speaking to the media. And when when you see him now? Yeah. And you go, right, you can string a sentence together that is not an absolute shit show. You kind of, yeah, that is not who you are at the core. But so he's just spoken off the cuff and really fucked the thing. The thing though, I think as well that people, members of Salt Lake City community thought as well because he was actually very active in the church and very well known in the church.

32:47 So he worked for the Latter Day Saints newspaper. He was a reporter. He was really well known. He was on TV. He was, Yeah, you know, he was in everything. He wrote opinion pieces about things. He was really well regarded. He actually was very well regarded by the community, yes. And so. There's an expectation of what he could do in front of the media and then and I think. That's almost why the family almost chose him to be a bit of a spokesperson, because he was used to it and he was the one who fronted the media a lot.

33:17 Yeah, he got a lot of stories out about he's the one who, really, he gave all the photos to people he knew so that they'd be published everywhere and on the news that night and all of that stuff. Like, he did a lot of positive things, yes. Then this one interview just completely undid all of it. Oh, God. Also, like you watch it and you're like just shut the fuck up. I know just. Shut up. Stop talking. Stop. Absolutely. Can you imagine his wife at the time? What the hell is he saying? Sure, sure.

33:46 The other Uncle Dave, I think his name is. John, Dave, Dave, I think. There is a John and a Dave so because I think Ed had three brothers. The Mormon families, there's a lot big. Families. Well, actually, just Speaking of big families, about a week before Elizabeth disappeared, Lois's father had passed away and they'd had his funeral. Yes. And yeah, that's why she burnt the dinner. That's right. Yeah, and, and apparently the grandfather, so Elizabeth's grandfather, Lois's father had 51 grandchildren.

34:18 And I'm not talking great grandchildren, just just first grandchildren. Wow, that's a. Lot of grandkids so that just goes to show how many kids he had and how many kids they had. Well, how do you even keep track of that as a grandparent? You couldn't? No. Now you're. Not buying each one of them a Christmas gift. Oh God, no. You'd have to do KK for sure. Elizabeth and her sister Mary Catherine were prolific harp players. They played the harp, the beautiful, absolutely gorgeous. And they actually played at their grandfather's funeral like the day before and and played his favorite song, which was apparently Silent Night.

34:56 Now, I think again, this sort of plays into the type of person that Elizabeth was. She was very dedicated to her music and very dedicated to her faith, and being able to do that for a grandfather I think was a was a really big thing. Absolutely. So we're still searching. Still searching still. Trying to find some suspects. The next suspect that they look at then is Reesey. Yeah. Reesey. Yeah. Oh, OK, let's get to Reesey. So he is an interesting character. The reason Richard Reesey, the reason he gets looked at is because they basically look at all these contractors that have been through the house over that period is sort of recent period of time.

35:36 And I believe there was like 6 on their list of people they needed to look at. There were, so this was not only contractors and people who'd been through the house to view it, but this was also other people that Elizabeth had known interactions with. So there was, there were a few people from the harp school she attended. She was also a member of some community club. So there were men that were being investigated from that respect as well, because very early on the police determined that there was likely a sexual motive to this crime.

36:06 And also though someone that knew the layout of the house, yes, because of the way the fact that they were they knew to move through the kitchen and where her bedroom would be and to move out through that they. Do say that they don't know how long the perpetrator had been in the house for, yes. So it's possible that they happen to stumble upon, you know, Elizabeth's room. They do believe it was targeted. So they're sort of gathering a picture of what they think they're looking for at this point.

36:32 Absolutely. So they so they have this list and they narrow it down and basically looking first at those people who have got prior convictions. Yep. And so a person that really comes to the forefront of that is Richard Reesey. Now, the reason that being is that he, yeah, he does have prior convictions. And when they do go and have a chat with him, they do find in his possession some jewelry that belong to Lois. So they immediately are able to arrest him because of that alone and bring him in for questioning further in terms of.

37:02 Elizabeth, do you know what he had of Lois's? What was? The jewelry. He had jewelry, which, OK, I don't know specifically what jewelry, but he'd also stole her golf clubs. Oh. Wow. God, oh. My God. Interesting. Did they not notice that and then report it as stolen? Like what? I don't. I never really got that information. Believe so but but there was an issue with payment with him. Yeah, that's right. So that's right. There was a bit of that was one of the other reasons he came to the top of the list was there was a bit of, you know, conflict between him and Ed around payments, so.

37:35 So basically what Racy alleges is that he'd done however many hours of work, Ed had agreed him to pay X amount, and he didn't pay him, yeah, that full amount or something. And then Ed had actually also offered him a car. They had an old Jeep. That's right, That he offered his partial payment. What I'm I sort of gather from all of this is that Ed had a bit of a cash flow problem at this point. That's what I was, yeah, yes. So he was trying to figure out how to pay. Him. And so my guess is that the motivation for him stealing that shit.

38:15 Was for payment. Payment. Yeah. OK yeah, yeah, that's that's yeah. OK anyway, sorry, no yeah. So anyway, they pull him in for questioning on this, obviously, and it's a pretty intense interview. You can see a lot of it. And they really do go at him and he stands by the he really does. To me, he avoids the questions a little and doesn't answer them directly, which does not do him any favours. He denies having any. Yes, he denies having anything to do with Elizabeth's abduction. But at the same time, he actually never answers that directly.

38:50 I find it frustrating, the interview. And I think that's why the cop gets so agitated with him as well, that he's really not getting the responses. I think the response he wants is, yeah, I kidnapped her and this is where he where she is. But he's not even getting a response that's definitive from him. He's basically like, I don't know, I don't know how to word it that he he just avoids. Answering directly, Yeah. He he doesn't directly answer any question. No. The police also seized his car. So this white Jeep that had been given to him, and I believe it was only like a week or two before Elizabeth's kidnapping and it had over 1000 miles more than what it had on it when Ed had given it to yes.

39:29 He won't explain. He won't. Explain it that he's the police are like where have you been? What's 1000 miles away? In which direction did you drive these 500? Miles, of course, the police are putting together with that, going OK, where, where's, where's he? Dumped her body? Yeah, that's what they're thinking exactly. And which is fair, but he doesn't give them anything. No, in which if he had just said, oh, look, I've got a girlfriend in Wyoming. I've driven, Yeah, Yeah, I've driven there and and, and and driven there three times in the last four days.

39:56 Yeah. Would have solved the problem, you know, like kind of thing. But he wouldn't answer it. And that's where it became an issue. Yeah. But the weird thing with this one is that they guys basically they put him in a holding cell or in like in jail because he is arrested for the jewelry and for the golf clubs. So he is in jail. Whilst there though he unfortunately suffers a a heart attack, no brain aneurysm, brain aneurysm and well it's awful because he experiences that and they rush him to hospital.

40:26 The cops are like, we don't have any answers yet from this guy. We haven't cleared him. We need to keep him alive. Just before this, though, they did administer A polygraph to him, yes. And he did not pass the polygraph. Yeah. Now there were certain questions that yes, but it wasn't because he failed by. It's showing that he was being deceptive. It failed because he didn't fucking answer the questions. Yes, yeah, this is. And that was if he just directly answered, maybe you'd have a little bit more of an answer at that point for sure.

40:57 But no. Yeah. So he's he gets rushed to hospital. The cops are definitely like going up. We need to keep him live. Do whatever you can keep him live. We need answers from this guy but unfortunately he passes away so the police at this point are like holy shit like this is the worst thing could happen 'cause we don't know anything about Elizabeth. They're still assuming in some ways that he is the. Perpetrator, they said somewhere in an interview I heard with one of the cops that he said we were 99.9% sure this was our guy.

41:24 Yeah, Yep. To then go holy shit. And the thought, I guess at this point they're thinking like one, it'd be great, you know, if if he's killed her, we don't know where her body is. But what if she's somewhere now alive and we can't even find her and get to her. And the one person who has that information is is dead. So this is not good. Yeah. But it turns out it wasn't him. Now the thing the whole time we're looking at racy that we go back to is Mary Catherine, who this little amazing 9 year old, she heard this person's voice speaking to Elizabeth that night and she knew that she knew that voice.

42:00 She also did see a silhouette. She. Saw the shape of the person and she she knew that, she knew the voice that, but couldn't put a name to it and so. I find it so amazing that in that first, so she's interviewed like so many times by the police. Yeah, but she's kept away from media and stuff, which I think is really great. They did a great job with that. Definitely. And in the interview, the first interview that she does and for every subsequent interview, but this, this I think is amazing. They say to her, the police officer interviewing her says did you recognise the voice?

42:32 And immediately she says, yes, and but I don't know where from. And you just think to yourself, Oh my God, she's 9. And look, I think this is such an important lesson from this case is to not dismiss the word of a nine year old. And I think in a lot of ways, certain things and certain aspects of Mary Catherine's story were explained away and and dismissed because she's 9. With Reecey, it was in that, you know, because she, she happened to just see a shot of him on the news. Yeah. Because as I say, they kept her away from majority of the media.

43:09 But she did one day see him on the TV screen and she immediately said it's not him. I I, you know, she was obviously in her brain going, I know that man's voice. I remember him around the house. And that's not the voice I'm hearing. I know I can't tell you the name of the person, who it was, but I know that's not it. But they didn't listen to Elizabeth and her family. Backed her. I was gonna say Ed and Lois listened to her. They. Really believed yes, Reesey wasn't the perpetrator. Yeah, which I mean, I can understand why he was so in this in the limelight for this, absolutely by the cops and definitely got a clear room and everything.

43:41 But you do have to take into account what this 9 year old was saying. She doesn't think it's him and she's, I think she's, she was very reliable witness, very reliable witness. More reliable than a lot of adults? Absolutely. Yeah, so that was incredibly interesting that she so she was very confident that with the fact that he had died, not that she was like Privy to all these sorts of things, but the fact that he had died, it didn't mean that this case was over and that it was done and dusted for, for Elizabeth.

44:06 They she was I I love that, you know, her dad and and Mary Kate, Catherine always and have said at the time they were always like, I just know she is still alive. And I know you'd have that in your heart if you're looking for your child anyway, but you have to use that to keep yourself going, Ed. Ed says it's it was an instinct for him, like he just knew. Yeah, but I think you, I mean, I don't know as a parent you'd want to keep that hope there and like, but I'm so glad they listened as a family, if not, you know, as well as the police, but they.

44:34 Literally the family literally never gave. Up. No, no, never gave up. Amazing. A couple of just other things of note. When Mary Catherine was interviewed, she described that the man also had a small black gun as well as the knife and that he was carrying a duffel bag, like a tan colored duffel bag over his shoulder. And these these elements were never really released to the media. There were things that only, you know, that were sort of kept, kept to themselves. Yeah. She also described that there was like a metallic kind of sound.

45:12 And what the police think that was, was possibly when Elizabeth and the perpetrator were climbing back out the window, the the chair that was next to the the house that sort of allowed him to climb in and then potentially climb out if they ended up going out that way, which I believe they did. It was metallic. And it's they think that was the sound of, you know, the chair hitting the house again. Yeah. Yeah. So she remembered some really pertinent information. For sure. So I guess now we get to a point where we're going getting months into this, where she's disappeared.

45:49 It's crazy. So should we go to sort of what's going on for Elizabeth at this point before we? Or do we want to talk about? No, I think that's. Who the perpetrator? Is no, I think that's a really good. Idea so poor Elizabeth I mean so this night where she's taken and where we thought the police were kind of assumed where their a car had arrived and she disappeared in a car. In actual fact she they hadn't they had headed her and her abductor had continued up that mountain. Now he had taken her to where he had a campsite where him and his wife lived.

46:22 And the whole time as they're going up this mountain towards that, poor Elizabeth is being told like by this guy that my wife is waiting for us at this campsite. In Elizabeth's mind, she was like, oh, thank God. Like there's a woman there. That means I'm, I might be safe. This might be, you know, just some people who have always wanted a child and they've taken me to be their child and I might be able to, you know, work this situation out. I think as a 14 year old, she had a little bit enough of, you know, image of her mind of what you know, people can do that is bad.

46:51 You know that I think she was kind of, I think, thinking positively about how bad this could be. Yeah, she did say to him, apparently, Are you going to rape me and kill me yet? Yeah, not yet. Not yet, I guess. And then she's thinking of this woman there, might be able to protect me then. She's fucking awful. Fucking. Awful. Now she has realized as she's heading up this mountain that she recognizes this person. So the cops are onto the right kind of train of thought in terms of contractors and things that have been throughout the house, because she does recognize him.

47:25 So they're walking up this mountain, they get to the campsite and there's the woman who she thinks is going to be her help. No, So they immediately put her take her into this tent. There's like tops out on the ground, etcetera in this tent that she gets taken into. And the woman starts cleaning her feet and doing all these sorts of things there. And she's dressed in like these robes, quite unusual. And and then she wants to strip off Elizabeth, and Elizabeth refuses, but she threatens her and says if you don't do that, I'm going to have Emmanuel, as she calls him, come in and strip you himself, which she's terrified of.

48:05 Of course, Elizabeth's feeling like just absolutely terrified at this moment. So she does. She undresses and they bathe her. She bathes her and gets her into these same sort of robes. And then this Emmanuel comes into the tent and speaks to his wife, who he calls Hepzibah, and he performs this odd ritual that he calls making Elizabeth his wife, of which she protests that because she's like, I'm only 14. I, you know, or that you can't do that. And she says to him, I'm, you know, I'm in my faith. I, you know, I don't, I, you know, I need to stay a virgin until I'm married and all these sorts of things.

48:44 And but then he finishes the ceremony that he's that she is now his wife. And he says, And now we will consummate the the marriage. This bit I find really sad when Elizabeth I'm in the whole thing. The whole thing's fucked, yeah. But when in that documentary that just came out this year, Elizabeth said I was so I didn't know a lot about life. And so she thought that if she rolled onto her stomach that she wouldn't be able to be raped. She's like, I learnt that night that that could still happen.

49:17 I think that in itself says a lot about the brutality of all of this. He didn't care. No, no. He was going to do what he wanted to do. And he did, many, many, many times. He raped her every day. Like, up to four times a day. There was a sex schedule, so Hepzibah, who was his wife, yeah, as well, was on the night shift and Elizabeth was on the day shift. And he would rape them. Or at least Elizabeth. Yeah, whenever he wanted. When the. Schedule came about because Hepzibah vocalized that she felt like Emmanuel was giving too much attention to Elizabeth and wasn't getting enough herself.

50:04 So then he put them on the schedule. Jesus Christ. Which is just fucked up. It's. So fucked up. So this. So oh, sorry, this is. Emmanuel believed that he was a prophet. He wrote the book of Emmanuel David Asiah. The 27 page manuscript. Yeah. Manifesto. Manifesto. Essentially, yeah, he tells Elizabeth that God commanded him. Yes. To take her as his wife. And that he needed to take 7 wives for him to become the the future Jesus. Basically like the reincarnation of Jesus. He also says that Mary Catherine will become one of his wives.

50:45 Yeah, and also Elizabeth's cousin. Now how many? That was a couple of months after Elizabeth was kidnapped. He. Yeah, he tempted to take he. Tempted to take Elizabeth's cousin and the exact same MO he there was a garden chair that was put up against the kitchen window. But thankfully Elizabeth's auntie, so this this girl's mum, so she was 18 years of age. The cousin was able to disturb the perpetrator and scared him off and nothing kind of ever came of that. They weren't able to get any real extra description.

51:25 They don't know where he went. They actually dismissed it a bit as being something that maybe someone had like, done a copycat. That's right. And the thing was that the fact of the window and the chair, the way it was put up against the wall to get in, none of that information had been released to the public. However, the police sort of did. Yeah, with this second one kind of go, oh, someone's. Because they pinned it on Reecey. They thought it was him and he couldn't have been him. Because he. Was in jail jail at the time.

51:50 He wasn't dead yet, but he was in jail at the time. Yeah, so. You know, that's it didn't fit their story, so they just kind of dismissed it. Yeah, they really did. I, I agree. I think in in there were good cops in this who were really gung ho on it for sure. But in a general sense, they didn't do all the things they needed to. And I think there were certain cops who agreed with that kind of sentiment, wanted things to be done, done slightly differently, but it wasn't. Yeah, yeah. Well, up in the camp, Elizabeth was drugged and forced to wear a veil.

52:22 And so they actually, I watched a YouTube video where Elizabeth and her older brother and his wife, they did the hike from where they were upping to up to where Elizabeth was held. Yeah. It was gruelling. Yeah, absolutely grueling. There wasn't really a path, so they're literally hiking through really dense mountainous terrain with lots of trees and shrubs. And so to walk up and down that mountain was really, really hard work. Add to that the fact that they starved Elizabeth, they withheld water.

53:01 She was obviously very frail, but they he would so Emmanuel would actually go down to Salt Lake, beg for money, beg for. Food he would plunder what he would call like go out and yeah, get supplies I guess, but you know, minimal for those for her, for Hips bar and for Augustine as they called her for Elizabeth. But yeah, so he would go down and do that and bring it back, but not that he would bring back the greatest of things or March. Well, I think he brought back a lot of processed food. There was a very real alcohol, a lot of alcohol.

53:34 Yeah. Yeah. So poor Elizabeth would be forced to drink alcohol. And she was kind of, at the time, very young. And I was said not drunk alcohol before, but she would be because it would kind of numb her a little bit. She almost liked it in that sense that it kind of made it a little bit easier to get through. Yeah. She can totally get. But. But also she would vomit, you know, and he should be left to, you know, left to lay in that so really unpleasant how she was being treated and just disgusting really entirely.

54:06 And then you've got more brazen over time and would then start to take Elizabeth and Hepsba down. Yeah, well, Hepsba kind of got, she got I think itchy feet sort of being stuck up in the mountain kind of going. I want to be a part of like these what's going on down in in Salt Lake City, etcetera and be a bit more human, I guess. So yeah, he eventually caved and said fine, you can come with me. And on one particular outing down there, they were in a library, I think. Yeah. And a police officer actually approached them.

54:32 Now, they would have looked weird because the women were in robes. Yeah. And veils with face covering so all you could see with their eyes. Yeah, and this police officer approached Emmanuel, who didn't have a face covering. He. Before. That as. Well, before that, even someone in the library had actually called the police. Yeah, because they believed that they were, they this person was like, that's Elizabeth. Because even though she had this robe on that covered her face, she had quite has quite distinctive eyes and the colouring of her eyes and things like that.

54:59 Blue, grey eyes. Yeah, they are. And they're quite, you know, quite, Yeah, quite distinctive. So somebody did call the police saying we, I believe this could be Elizabeth Smart because it's so it's this is massive in Salt Lake City. This information of this girl who's gone missing. Yeah, there's. Billboards. It's not every newspaper. Still, like, absolutely. It's really widespread. So this person calls the cops rock up with. So they're actually like arriving to be like we need to check this person out.

55:23 We believe we've got indications that this could be Elizabeth Smart. The cop specifically says are you Elizabeth Smart to Elizabeth, to which she. He didn't respond. She. She was unable to respond. I mean, she's paralyzed by the manipulation of Emmanuel entirely. It's awful. And so she doesn't feel the confidence to be able to speak up at this moment. Emmanuel had actually gone to the bathroom. They approached them whilst it was just Hepsibah and Elizabeth at first, but as they're started asking her this question, Emmanuel came over and intervened as well.

55:59 And he did stop immediately and say you can't lift her veil because I did ask if I could see her face. You can't do that. It's against our religion, which I just find that as well. It's such a convenient in this moment, using that as his ploy to not give someone access to who she was. And I, I mean, God, I have such respect for people who want to cover their faces in religion. But but this was kind of like, I don't know, there's got to be some way of being able. To I just think I think, you know, if you think of other religions that have face coverings, there's ways that if you needed to identify those people, you could.

56:36 And when I said that, like another female, they could have taken her to a private place where no one else was around. Yeah. Have a female police officer lift her veil. Yeah. You know, there's a respectful way to do. That yes. I don't know, but it was just not, it was, it was basically like they went, oh, OK, well, we can't lift her veil. So yeah, yeah. The police officer who who was there does say, I assume that if it was Elizabeth, she'd be like, yes, yes, it's me, it's me, Please help me. Yes, but but PTSD, it's a treadle's not like, I mean, it doesn't work like that, Yeah.

57:08 No, it doesn't. Yeah, she said. Elizabeth says now, she said unless I was 100% sure I was gonna be able to get out of there safely, I wasn't gonna do it. What if they, you know, she lifted her veil and they went, Oh no, I don't think it is you and send her away because she knew the consequences then of like, oh, she would have could have occurred. She probably. Would have been killed. Yeah, so that playing in the back of her mind going if this, if you don't, then take me away from this man, I am just fucked.

57:35 Like it's so it's awful. The actual manipulation and the threat over her as to why she wouldn't do that. I completely ungrasp. But it's such a missed moment. Yeah. Unfortunately, it really scared the shit out of Emmanuel, though. Yeah, and he decided that God wanted him to move them. Yeah, he begged and begged for enough money to get 3 bus tickets to San Diego. They decided to go. And Elizabeth, I mean, I remember from watching Oprah when I was homesick at school, when I was at school. Don't ever let somebody move you.

58:10 Yeah, if you're kidnapped, try and stay in the one spot because that's your best hope of being. Found. And Elizabeth knew that too. She was like, at least. Instinctively, she knew that. Well, they, they weren't this. I mean, the library incident isn't the only exposure she had. There were other places that he'd taken her where in hindsight, people were like, Oh my God, it was Elizabeth Smart. It was that. Photo when he took them. To a bar, a bar or a party of some sort. Wasn't it that? And somebody just took a photo and it's literally Elizabeth in the foreground and you can you can tell it's her.

58:40 Yeah, yeah. But nobody recognized that in the moment. And what Elizabeth says is she could see when she would go out that there's a billboard with her face on it. There's. Yeah, she knew people were looking. For her face on it, she knew in Salt Lake City, people were looking. For it, although we should, I guess mention too something that for her that was really hard was that in the Mormon teachings, if you've had sex before marriage, you have no worth. You know that you there are consequences divinely kind of in terms of their religion.

59:11 So she was questioning whether or not her family would want her back because of the fact of what had happened to her. She had no differentiation between premarital sex and rape like she was in her mind. She had never been taught the difference and therefore hadn't had an understanding that, well, I have had sex. So they, they might, they will disown me now, which we can get into as we get to the end of this, of like the consequences of that. But that is also a layer of all this manipulation with her that she is feeling.

59:44 Do they even want me back? Do I even speak up? Do I, you know, yeah, OK, people looking for me, but do they want me? Do they because they don't know what's? Happening. What happens to me if they do find out what's happened? Which is awful. I mean, she was 14. I can kind of God, you know, understand. That Yeah, but there was a guide, a party, that a party or the pub that that same night we're talking about that he remembers now the conversation he had with her. He believed that she was like 18 or something and with this weird ass bloke, right.

1:00:12 And so he actually started up to her and said, hey, you know, like you should get away from this guy. And she didn't really respond or anything, but he remembers kind of just trying to stand up for her a little bit and knowing that she was in this controlling relationship. But all he saw it as is she looked older than 14 with a weird ass dude. It's like, yeah, it's so hard. It's so hard. Yeah. That that guy was quite funny because he's like, I'm pretty sure they were at a bar, at a bar. And he's like, oh, look, we're at a weird bar.

1:00:40 People wear weird shit. It wasn't that unusual that someone would come wearing something like that. So yeah, that's not necessarily the thing. But it was after he'd had a conversation with Emmanuel, he's like, oh, I need to tell these women to get away from this. Yeah. You know, it was just so awful. Yeah. Yeah. But obviously Elizabeth was so worried or scared of doing anything wrong, she just did not speak. No. So basically they've moved to San Diego. They were there for about a month, I think it was.

1:01:09 And Elizabeth's like, I need to get back to Salt Lake City like this. I'm not going to get recognized. To get recognized here so with that she's she was able to manipulate a manual and she said I I feel God talking to me and and he's telling me I think we need to go back to Salt Lake and apparently thankfully and then he was like oh finally God is talking to you God is letting you in yeah so and yes no, I think you're right. We do need to go back to Salt Lake. So with that, they they make their way back back to that camp and.

1:01:42 Unbeknownst to him, back in Salt Lake, things are shifting. Yep. So they're on to who he might be. That's right. So in amongst all of this, so we're kind of now back from the family's point of view. Yes, there Mary Catherine is one night reading a Guinness World Records book, and apparently she was looking at some female bodybuilders or something like that, something. And not that that necessarily is what prompted her, but something just. Triggered. Something just triggered. She's like, it's Emmanuel.

1:02:12 She knew the name. It just came to her. Yeah, that's who the voice. Is who the voice is. And with that she's told Ed and Lois, Yep. And they have gone of of course, they've gone straight to the police. Because they knew there's a manual, that's all. They knew him as well. That's it. They knew. Nothing they knew that they had had an A manual a contractor again like working at the house. And what Elizabeth remembers this as well as as Mary Catherine that they were in in the in Salt Lake City one day with their mother and there was a homeless man who they they were talking to and her mum, Lois had offered for him to get in touch with Ed to potentially have some work at the house.

1:02:53 As we said, this is what would happen. And there was they, they need some trees chopped down. So he had reached out to Ed and they'd organized this and he, he had did do some work at the house. So Mary Catherine and Elizabeth hadn't had massive interactions with him. He. Literally worked at the house for one day for like 8 hours. Yeah, it was that was also was the interaction of in the city where they'd met him there with with mom and then the day at the house and that's it. But yeah, this Emmanuel meant something to them.

1:03:19 Like, as in like they the name, they were like, oh, OK, we know who you mean. But we, we all just don't really like he didn't have that much of interactions with us. But OK, let's follow this. She did a sketch. We sat with a sketch artist and they did a drawing of him. Yeah. So they all they all were like, right, we know who that is. But but Emmanuel, it wasn't even his real name. No. So they had to they they actually, unfortunately at this point, I think personally, the police were though we're not going to release this sketch to the public.

1:03:51 And I can understand from the perspective of if Elizabeth is still alive and we put this sketch out and this guy gets scared, maybe he does then kill her. Yep, and gets rid of the the evidence of like what he's done. So I understand that. But this point, how long this has been going on for, it's. Months and months and months and. Months. Why don't you just put that sketch out? I don't know they. Don't they hold on to it for another couple of months? At which point Ed said he was just so frustrated and he actually used Tom's connections within the media to get that photo to America's Most Wanted and onto that TV show.

1:04:32 And they did. And the cops? The cops were shitty at the. Cops were shitty at the time but they now say thank God he did that because that show aired that week. And Emmanuel and Emmanuel's sister, well, actually her. Brother's brother-in-law. brother-in-law. Yeah, it. Was like, oh, your brother is just on like there's a sketch that looks a lot like him on America's Most Wanted, and they knew he had a he. Knew he was a weird guy and. That he was in and around Salt Lake City even though they lived over the other side of the country, I think.

1:05:04 Yeah, that yeah, yeah. And so anyway, they got in contact with the Salt Lake City police and they're like, we think we know who that sketch is. And they say that it is her brother named Brian David Mitchell, saying that, you know, this is her brother. She looks a lot like her brother. The last time she saw him, he was clean shaven, but something about the eyes and the nose definitely looked like him. So they now have a name and they start to look into things they don't find a lot. They know. They know he's had some issues in the past with the law.

1:05:42 They know that he's got some mental health issues. Well, does he? Well, does he? Well, no, I think he'd been. I think he'd been. Well, he'd been arrested before. He'd been cleared as having any mental. He'd been cleared. How do you. OK, so they know they now they've got another suspect, essentially. Yeah. For the first time, really, they've got a solid suspect for the first time, really, since Reecey passed away. Yes. So they start, they put out a, what do you call it, like a bowl of a bee on the lookout for this particular person.

1:06:17 He's been known to walk in and around in and around Salt Lake City. He's known to wear robes and a white, like, white robes. So they they've put this information out into the community as well. Now they come back from San Diego, as in Elizabeth Emanuel and Hephzibah come back from San Diego and they're walking down the street, the main one of the main streets in Salt Lake City. And these two people, in fact, I believe there were multiple people who. Yeah, well, the thing was they weren't in robes.

1:06:52 Sorry Elizabeth. They put her in this weird ass wig and glasses and stuff. So she did look. I mean, you can see photos of her. Well, you know. It's like a grey curly wig. Yeah. And then a headscarf over the top. Yeah, and these big glasses, she looked quite unusual, like she it would draw attention, like, because it didn't look right at all. Yeah, she looked like she was trying to not look like herself, like. Yeah, Yeah. That's very fair. Yeah, yeah. So they, yeah, definitely rocked up in this. They were all a little bit in camouflage like kind of thing.

1:07:23 So they didn't look right. But yeah. So the police were called and said people were like, that's that guy from that, that image, you know, and there's two women with him. This looks stuff as yeah, yeah. And the police do come to to visit them as they're getting off this bus, I believe. Yeah, yeah. I think they've just gotten off the. Bus yeah, just got off the bus yeah but again Elizabeth is terrified and and doesn't speak immediately, but she was like, I think that in this point she was getting a bit more confident, but it took a fair bit the cop did have to do a lot of like and they.

1:08:00 He she said he separated her from Emmanuel as well and got her in a police car. And she was as to, you know, it's enough away from him to maybe then give her the confidence to kind of go. If I quietly kind of indicate here who I am, this might be my moment. And she eventually does admit to being Elizabeth Smart the. Cop says to her, are you Elizabeth Smart? And she says to him, if thou sayeth yes, she doesn't even give him a really direct she she's still kind of almost in character. Yeah. Because.

1:08:32 Well, that's how she's been for nine months condition. She was conditioned to do that, yes, nine months. This is. This is. It was. I think it was exactly 9 months to the day that she from when she was kidnapped to when she was found crazy. Apparently the police then put her in the back of their police car and she just broke down and she was in tears. Ed and Lois are notified to meet the meet the police. They basically rang him and said don't stop, don't go anywhere, come directly to the police station.

1:09:02 And with that, I find this, I actually found this really sad. I mean, but the police have her in a room on her own waiting for her mum and dad to come. Do you think that's bizarre? She's just absolutely traumatic. Nine months. Yep. And then you can tell she's really unsure because Ed comes into the room at Lois. Must have been elsewhere. She yeah, Ed comes into the room and he's like Elizabeth. Isn't that really you? Is that? Really. You And she's like, yes, Dad. Oh. My God. Oh, I know. I watched that.

1:09:42 That was the first time I've seen that. In that documentary, you can see the footage of it like, and it's like, oh, it's, I literally broke down because it's just Oh my God. Can you imagine? After nine months, I mean. You wouldn't believe it. You wouldn't believe. It no, no. Even, I think, I mean Elizabeth obviously so extremely traumatised that she's still not. Not. I don't know. Yeah, She's not able to process probably what's actually happening to her. But to, I mean, the credit of that family, she's able to, I mean, with a lot of support, obviously, I'm sure over time, but you know, she is able to come through this, which I really think that that, you know, her dad and her mom and the love that they had for her and, you know, really helped her through that, obviously, because she had to return to school and to normal life after this, which you I just can't even fathom how you do that.

1:10:39 No. I mean, she is amazing. She went on a Mormon mission. Yes to Paris. To Paris, like the next a few months after she got back, Like after she was discovered, yeah. I mean, I guess that's the only way to do it is like to RIP the bandit off and just do it can. You imagine her mum and dad letting her go off to Paris on her. Own Oh no, I'm sorry, as a parent, I couldn't actually, I actually couldn't. Same. I I mean as much as I I know it would be the right thing for I'm like Nope, not OK with me. To stay here.

1:11:07 I'm sorry you need to stay within visual stay like I need to better see you at. All time tag on you. Oh my God. Oh, God, yeah, yeah, yeah. But but she did. She ended up having to come home from the mission in order to give some testimony in pretrial hearings for Emmanuel. Because this is what's. And Tiba, whose real name is Wanda Barzi? Yes. Now fuck me. Fuck them. Oh Oh my God, fuck them. Should we get into who they are? Let's get into who they are. Sorry, Emmanuel. Oh my God. So this guy, David, Brian David Mitchell, he was born in 1953 and he was the third of six children.

1:11:48 His parents were Irene Mitchell and Cheryl Mitchell. Now, his father was a alcoholic, all those sorts of things, but also a he well, his father thought he was a divine prophet and that he was also known as being a peeping Tom. And he consumed an incredibly amount, a high amount of pornography in front of Brian. Now, the other person, all of his children. Yeah. Well, I think by the time of four, Emmanuel had a manual. I mean, we'll call him Brian Mitchell. Now, Brian Mitchell was shipped off from his parents to his grandfather.

1:12:26 And if you think his dad was bad, where do you think he learned it from? So the grandfather was a paranoid schizophrenic. Now he would bring home random people and have sex with them in front of Brian Mitchell. So he was exposed to this high level of pornography, sexual interaction and everything as a very young child. By the time he was 13, he people were really like, he's odd and he's weird and he was sort of flagged as having some mental health issues at that point. However, by 15 he was arrested for soliciting sexual activity from a four year old neighbor.

1:13:11 Like just next level. Holy fuck this guy is got serious issues. I mean as we say, you know, like with most of these cases, there's always a start for this issue to become. And yes, there are other people at fault for creating him as The Who he became, absolutely. But an adult? I was going to say there's something at the core of his being though, that that allowed that to happen because his siblings and not all perpetrators of horrific. This is it so. Yeah, but it certainly stuck with him. Yes. So he married a woman by the name of Karen 1st and he's.

1:13:51 And he was only a teenager himself at the time. When they were very young, when they got married and they had two children. Now, he was assaulted. Oh, I'm sorry. Arrested for assaulting her in 1974. And they divorced in 1975. OK, so that's wife #1? Did he go to prison for that? No, no, they ended up when the with the divorce though, so they did not treat those children very well at all. No, they were very much a problem having these kids that kind of stopped them from doing what they wanted to do, like the pair of them.

1:14:25 No, I'm not saying just him. It was both. They were both not great parents at all. But when it came to divorcing her, obviously he wanted to use them as pawns at that point. And he actually kidnapped them for two years. Just just insane. But anyway, he he did keep those children with him, though I don't know how that came about because then he married his second wife, Debbie. Debbie also already had, I think, a couple of children. 2 I think. Yeah, so then that gave them 4. But then she then they had two children together now to keep that marriage going.

1:15:00 At one point he figured that it was his two children that were the problem and he put them out to foster care and got rid of them. It didn't save the marriage. Shock, horror, he molested his own children in that marriage. So his actual biological children he molested, Yes, I mean, I believe, I believe. His stepchildren as well as. Well, but his own biological children, yeah.

1:15:28 He he's the wife. She found all these photos and things that he had taken of those those incidents. So that was her I'm out of here moment and left that marriage in 84. At that point sort of in his life is when he sort of officially really gets evaluated for mental health issues, but he was legally found to not be mentally ill at that point. So this is so that honestly blows my. Mind I Well, it doesn't. It doesn't to me. To me, that says that what they're saying is that he's coherent in his choices.

1:16:03 They're not saying that's right, what he did, that he's not, that this is the thing. What mentally ill is and what being coherent and making those choices is, is two different things. Like, I just can't come at the fact that somebody who doesn't have a mental illness would perpetrate these things knowingly and willingly. But that's where that's it's a psychopathic thing, That's right. Not a mental illness that is like like psychopathy. Is a mental illness. But it's not treatable, really. No, it's not treatable.

1:16:30 And that's where I think that's the differentiation between like whether or not you're, this is where like, yeah, whether or not he was able to stand trial for Elizabeth's kidnapping, etcetera, was like whether or not he was coherent enough to stand trial. And it came down to whether or not he was diagnosed as mentally ill. And they were legally saying, no, he is, he is sound of mind enough, yes. To stand trial, yes. So that two things can be true in that he could have a mental illness and still be fit to stand trial, which that's what I think.

1:17:02 That's the, that's what I'm saying is it's he's not legally mentally ill where he can't be held accountable. Be held accountable. For his actions, there is a difference there in between of like, you know, no, no, this guy's the behaviour that he has maybe perpetrated is beyond his control due to mental illness. That's someone who needs different therapy to someone who's been coherent enough to make these choices within their mental illness or whatever. Absolutely. That they need to stand trial as as any other human would.

1:17:27 Yeah, yeah. So so that's important that in 1983 that was he was that was legally found that he is not mentally ill to that degree. Make decisions, make decisions coherently enough trial, yes, yeah. So, but in this, he's sent to group therapy. And who does he meet in Group therapy? I mean, I'm sorry, but you should never meet a partner in Group therapy. I know, right? So in this group therapy, he meets Wanda Bazi, who in the future becomes Hepzibah. Now this group therapy, apparently people, when they saw these two together, the words that people would use was that they were disturbingly compatible.

1:18:10 Eww. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Both of them had in the past injured animals, and I don't mean injured, actually, I should say just killed. Let's just. Tortured and killed. Tortured and killed. Yeah. So Brian had killed the family dog in in growing up Hepzibah, or Wanda, I should call her now. She murdered the the family's pet rabbit and then cooked it up and fed it to the family, which I could only come out a little bit more than the dog in that yes, you can eat rabbit and people do do that.

1:18:46 I personally can't. Like it's just not something. But you cook. But that's your pet. Yeah, it's your pet. And that's the thing. It's like a farmer raising, raising rabbits to be, you know, slaughtered for food. That's one thing. Yeah, it's another thing to. Have a family pet? And and cook the family pet and eat it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, OK. So they, they, they are just, the two of them should never have met, let's be honest. I mean, but they did and they got married. They also had sorry she had had six children prior to meeting him.

1:19:21 One of her daughters has come out publicly and said that Brian did molest her as a child. So he's got full background history of this this. Is it's repeated immediately every relationship he had he perpetrated, you know, sexually explicit crimes on young girls and boys I. Think too. Yeah. So I mean, she came out here publicly and said that she'd be molested, but and that that she believed that both her mum and and Mitchell should have, should be permanently in prison like that. She just does not believe that they should ever get out.

1:19:57 So with the two of them together, this is where the radicalization sort of occurred of the religious side of it. So the two of them became this, you know, like he wrote that book of the book of Emmanuel David Desire. Yeah, and they would wear these white robes and they would preach these religious messages and just and it. Was about it was all shocking like. Horseshit. Oh, totally so, but weirdly enough, like this is all we go get into like where there was premeditation of what they were going to do to Elizabeth, whether it was directly Elizabeth is when that became I think that was really probably when he saw her when he was in the house.

1:20:32 Same. But prior to all that back in sort of earlier in 2001, they were with some friends of theirs, which just blows my mind that they had friends they but they had said to them, well, actually Wanda had said it to to this guy, which Emmanuel Bryan had gotten very annoyed with her for telling him this, that they had had the God had spoken to them and that another wife was going to come to them and a or a child was going to come to them named Augustine. So she got quite, I think a beating for that, for that.

1:21:05 Yep. But yeah, that then led to the kidnapping of Elizabeth, which she named Augustine, which they not, yes, which is just chilling. But the two of them are just horrendous. Oh. They're the they're the scum of the earth. And you know what I think is even more disgusting? I'm not a religious person, but when people hide behind religion, I think that is the lowest of the low because people who believe and people who are of faith like Elizabeth and the Smart family were. Yeah, they place a lot of value in that.

1:21:43 Yeah. And to hot fit for Emmanuel and Hepzibah, you know, for Wandering and Brian to hide behind that and use that as their motivation to commit these horrific and horrendous acts is the ultimate cowardice. Totally. Ultimate cowards act because yeah, they couldn't just go out and blatantly do it. They had to hide behind religion and I think that's disgusting. I believe that more so and more so Brian than Wanda. Absolutely. Brian used it as just a manipulation tool for sure. It wasn't even something that he truly even believed.

1:22:18 I don't think he believed for a second that any of that was real. He. He. Saw that his dad used religion in a manipulative way to get what he wanted and he's just continued that on. I completely agree with that. I think he's just gone. Oh, this is a way that I can get people to do what I want, you know, And that he, I think, too, he understood the LSD church. Yeah. And he LDS. Sorry, LDS LSD. No, it's maybe something else. He may have been on that too, though. Possibly, Yeah. So I think he understood the LDS church and what that created in terms of particularly the young girls in that church and how much more pliable they might be to manipulation.

1:22:56 Fully agree with that because they are so innocent. And I mean, God, I'd love a world where we could all be that innocent to believe that, you know, you would just, I mean, I believe girls could want more for this. But in the church it's, you know, basically that girls would grow up and meet their their person, that is their love of their life and they have children and everything is rainbows and sunshine. And I wish that was the world that we lived in that that's what rainbows and sunshines were all about kind of stuff.

1:23:21 But it's not. And so you do need to educate children, you know, at appropriate ages about more sinister things, unfortunately, to protect them, you know, at an age appropriate way, which they're not in the LDS Church. They they're kept very isolated from the reality of life. Yeah. And that I think that played into what Brian could then use over Elizabeth. Definitely. And he just blatantly knew that. Yeah, he knew. I mean, I think, I think a lot of people who know very limited things about the LDS church probably know that it's, you don't have to, you know?

1:23:56 Know a lot. You know that that's probably the case, Yeah. And I mean, even just the the wholesome activities they did like the fact that the girls played the harp and I know all of that sort of stuff like they stunningly. Gorgeous. They really were. Yeah, so sorry. So experts who had looked at Mitchell and his personality basically decided that he was not psychotic, but in fact he was manipulative and silly. Stick. So he he really, this is the thing. He was not mentally ill in that form of like not being able, not being coherent in what his decisions making will do.

1:24:32 He was very coherent in all of his decisions and very much in control of what he did and what he did to Elizabeth in all of this. Yeah. So the trial didn't happen until 2010? That's insane. Reason for that is Mitchell spent years, I guess, attempting a mental health defense so that you wouldn't actually then have to be imprisoned or actually have to withstand a trial. Yeah, he pretended to be insane. So much so he would sing loudly during all of the court hearings and disrupt so somebody would start talking and he'd be spouting off his gospel or whatever.

1:25:14 Yeah, it was complete manipulation. He was pretending that he was insane. He wasn't actually insane. US marshals have said so. He was under the care in, in within the court system of the US Marshals. And they say that as soon as the the hearing was over, he'd just stop. And he was he'd just walk out and be normal. He wouldn't have these outbursts anywhere else then when it was convenient for him in the courtroom. Yeah. And unfortunately, the judges kept postponed. There were multiple judges over this time too.

1:25:41 I'm not even saying it was one person. No, multiple judges over this time would postpone the hearings until he was determined to be mentally sound enough. He would have all these. So he was detained for this whole time, I should say, but no conviction. Would have these he would have these psychological assessments they'd be like yes, yes, he's fine to stand trial and then he'd they'd go to do a pretrial hearing again and he'd do the same thing yeah. So it wasn't until 2010 until he was actually put to trial.

1:26:12 They basically said fuck it, you're going to trial. We're not, we're not delaying this any further. That's. Right. Elizabeth was 23 years old at the time of the trial, so that just gives you an idea of it was nine years late. Just crazy. Her testimony really dismantled his insanity defence because she was able to say all of the coherent things, the logical decisions he made while he had her, well, both of them had her and she was able to counter everything that the defence had. She was able to give a reason she was like and give examples and.

1:26:45 She was so good on the. Stand. She was amazing. She is so strong. She's such a strong woman. In December of 2010, he was found guilty and sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole. Thank. Fuck. Oh God yeah. However, Wanda Bazi. So she was declared mentally incompetent to stand trial in 2004, but it was eventually given 15 years in federal prison for her actions. There was a bit that went on there with that. However, she was then released early so in 2008 she was medicated and things with antipsychotics but was released out into the public.

1:27:25 Yep. Now the family did. I can't believe this, that at that time she was actually only she pledged a guilty sorrow, I should say, in in 2010 as well to Olivia Wright's. Yeah, abduction. Yeah. So she did. She got a little bit for that, but because she assisted in getting a manual for his case as well, that's where she got a little bit lesser on certain things. I think she was eventually released for good in 2018. Yeah, yeah, 2018, yes, sorry. She was because that the 2010 conviction was the 15 years.

1:27:56 So, so yeah, the four years she spent from 2000 and four, 2008 was the incompetence to stand trial and medicated etcetera. Yeah, but then 2010, but it was only for Olivia, who the cousin, it was not for Elizabeth at all. So, yeah, so she got 15 years for that, but which that only turned into 8, which is just fucked up. It was released and like only recently two things have come up about her. Yeah. So in 2025, in May, she's 79 years of old of age at the moment, now 80 this year. She was arrested because she's, when she was released, she was actually, she's got to be marked as a sexual offender.

1:28:37 So with that, she can't go anywhere near parks and things, but she was arrested at home for visiting Liberty Park, Sugar House Park and one other I think in Salt Lake City. But as a sex offender, she can't be in the presence of children and therefore she can't be in these spaces. Her explanation for being there was that she was commanded by the Lord to visit the parks and feed the ducks. I don't believe that from the second wonder. But yeah, she's she's free at the moment, but on pretrial release to the subject to what goes on there with that.

1:29:12 So interesting to see what happens if she is spending more time, but she should never have been released. I honestly think that that's just unbelievably gross. But she it's, it's so inadequate for her actions in this because she did not, she did the same as Emmanuel. She because she was, she did participate as well in in the sexual assaults of Elizabeth. She enabled all of his other behaviors as well. She should be held accountable. She could have at any point gone to someone and said, Oh my God, this is what my husband's just done.

1:29:42 As the adult in that situation, she could have spoken up to, yeah. Came in in the library when Emmanuel was in a toilet. She could have also turned and said, yes, we're both in this situation, we need to get away from him, but no. No, she was fully complicit. Completely. She did divorce him in from jail. I think in 2004 that happened, but still. Yeah. So. So I still did the shit you did. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Just awful. Horrible. Where's Elizabeth today? Yes, so she's a mother of three. She got married to a really lovely LDS man.

1:30:21 She has three children. I think she's got two daughters and a son. Yeah, she's a global child safety advocate and the founder of the Elizabeth Smart Foundation. So the Elizabeth Smart Foundation includes abuse prevention education and also survivor support, child safety legislation. And they actually launched this thing called Smart Defence. Now this is an online or you can do it face to face, I think in Salt Lake, but an online self-defense course that basically teaches young girls and young young children how to defend yourself against a potential kidnapping hub or a sexual perpetrator.

1:31:04 The difference between like, you know, rape and and consensual sex. Yeah, she's an advocate big time for that now, in terms of the that she felt like she was unprepared in that sense to know. I found her really interesting. She calls this like the chewed up gum metaphor. And I've seen her. She's spoken about this. I actually think she wrote about this a little bit in her book as well. Yeah. She says that she didn't try to escape in public because. And part of it was this religious shame that you were talking about.

1:31:39 And she said one of her teachers, when she was younger, she went to a youth group. Yeah. And this teacher of this youth group said that basically that if you're like a stick of gum, once you're chewed up, nobody's going to want you. Oh fucking. Hell. Yeah, and if you're clean and in your packet, then somebody's going to want to want you. Oh, so that was the thing that she thought about when coming back, I guess, you know, the thought of coming back into society. She's like, well, I'm just like a I'm.

1:32:15 Chewed up gum. Oh, that's so awful. Yeah. Oh God, it's absolutely horrific. The thing like, I mean, yeah, you want to shelter kids and stuff from these things, but they need to have an understanding of the difference between the like, what's right and what's wrong in these situations to protect themselves. Well, that's part of what she wants to do with her. Yeah, work and and thank goodness she's doing that. Oh, God, she did not do this. She there should be no guilt for on her. And I'm not. I mean, I, I think she's now in a place where she knows that.

1:32:44 Yeah. But every victim should know that, yes. The other thing I just wanted to point out was I think how traumatized to this day Mary Catherine is. Yeah. I think you watch her on that documentary and you're like, Oh my God, this is still so raw for you. Yeah, you haven't. This is not your fault. She saved her. She. Saved her sister. She is. She is the epitome, in my mind, of a hero. I could not agree with you more. But she doesn't see it that way. And I look at her and I think you still look like a little girl, whereas I think Elizabeth has definitely.

1:33:17 She's grown into herself and she's grown. Through this experience, whereas I can still see Mary Catherine hasn't. No, I feel for her so deeply. Yeah, she is an incredible woman. She was an incredible 9 year old girl. Oh yeah. I'm so sorry that that happened to her and that she had to go through all of those things. And I think sometimes she's a forgotten victim in all of. This absolutely. And I think that's where, you know, like we focus on Elizabeth in this and as as we should as the victim and all these sorts of things.

1:33:45 But, I mean, Mary Catherine was a victim as well in that room that night. She experienced trauma, the fact of losing her sister, who she idolized, the thought of losing her forever. And but she has to focus on the fact that she got her back. Yeah. And that's why I said at the beginning of this that, you know, as much as this story is, has got awful, awful parts of it. And there are awful, awful people in this. At the ultimate end of this is what is the best you can get out of this that could ever happen.

1:34:10 And it happened because of Mary Catherine. Yep. If she did not remember Emmanuel's name, if she did not. I mean, they could have just dropped this with racy. Yeah. Without which is which is sticking to her truth and going. That's not the voice. I know. It was a different voice. It's going to come to me. It's going to come to me. And she did. She did such an amazing job. The police almost did do that. They almost did. You know, when Racy died, it was kind of like, well. There goes that. Basically.

1:34:39 And so the fact that she was able to be so, so sure of it, yeah, as a nine year old. I, I, I do go back to then help their parents. The parents like Lois and and Ed as much as like I'm saying, like the LDS church has done them wrong in terms in terms of, you know, their upbringing. In some ways, I think the parents were obviously raised their kids so right and backed Mary Catherine. Yep as well and supported her to get through this. Yep. To stick to her guns and know what she knew was right and like didn't just follow the line of the police and dismiss their daughter either.

1:35:16 So and I think that always just comes back to how good of parents they were individually as well. That's it. Yeah, that's it. Lois isn't in the documentary. No, he has, Elizabeth said. She just wants to leave all of this in the past. Now she has she has spoken as well and done a lot of public speaking herself and I think and she's written a book with with Elizabeth about all this and she feels like she's said enough. Yep, apparently so. She's. Completely. Yeah, Yeah. It's completely fair. Yeah. Ed and Ed and Lois aren't together anymore either.

1:35:41 They have divorced after 34 years of marriage. And we can go down a whole other track of that, of the Mormon church and what that does for people 100%, you know, which I mean, I also all power to Ed and that he's, you know, found out, found who he is as a person. That's right. Eventually and being able to voice that again, beyond the church, that he he has come out as gay. And I mean, as we said, a brilliant father and always, I think always meant to be a father of these children. Definitely, no question there.

1:36:06 And, you know, you know, but he's finally been able to find a voice to come forward and of who his truth is because the Mormon church squashes that in you, too, to not be able to be who you are. I think if that's the way that you're genetically made to be. And that's a whole other story. But good on him for coming forward on that. But, yeah. And there are, again, there's such, there's no malice between Lois and Ed and Elizabeth, all those sorts of things that there are family throwing through no matter what.

1:36:31 So they're. Yeah, Ed's very prominent in the documentary that has come out most recently. And as we say, Lois isn't even involved. But it's not because there's any issues in the family. None at all, no. No, that's exactly right. Look, I think in cases like this, if it wasn't for the media retention, it would not have ended the way it did. Yeah, I don't. We don't know, thankfully, what would have come of it. But Elizabeth does say that she thinks that Emmanuel had it in him to kill her. It, it was on knife's edge, so to speak, sometimes as to whether that was going to be the case.

1:37:06 And the fact that she survived for those nine months, she endured the most horrific torture that anyone would ever have to endure. And she still came out of it the other side. And she has grown. She's such a strong human being for it, and thank goodness she was found. Thank goodness he's in prison and we never have to worry about him again. I love though, that she met her husband, Matthew Gilmore in Paris, right? Which I mean, well, nice. But he met her not knowing her who she was in that, in that she was Elizabeth Smart, who had been kidnapped and returned home after nine months.

1:37:42 So they were able to build a relationship with none of that as being part of who she was, which I think just, I mean, he saw who she was as a strong, amazing woman without knowing all of her background. And so they fell in love before he even knew all of that stuff about about her. And that only made him love her more, you know, So I think that's really amazing. So they're a beautiful family. They are. Yeah. All. I just want the best for her in terms of everything now, because she's come out of this the other side, which is so hard to do.

1:38:14 I mean, the abuse that she endured, you could forgive someone for going down the wrong path after that. Oh, God, you know. But she, I think, again, come back to the family. Obviously, there was so much support and love there that she was able to get back on that track and get and get the life she deserved after all of this. Yeah. Yep, absolutely. Gosh, another one in the can. Meg, Oh. Yeah, get that out of my brain. I know. Actually, Speaking of getting things out of your brain, someone said to me something about one of our old episodes the other day and I'm like, yeah, no, I don't remember that.

1:38:47 No, I know it's. Time to go back and listen to the episode. I know, I always. Feel like a weirdo, say, you know, I was just listening to our episode from this weekend and they're like, what? You listen to yourself, you know? And I'm like I do because then I can actually respond to people when they comment on our things, because otherwise it's not in my brain at all. Like same. I don't know. What you're talking about it's the. Moment. It must be the way we cope with this. Yeah, it's got to be, I mean, because it's all back there, but it's.

1:39:08 It's way back there, way back Push we push it do down. Anyway, thank you for joining us for another episode everyone. Should we just say it? Next week we are going to be talking about the case of Carly Ryan, which is we're coming back to Australia for this one. So really interesting case. Yeah, not, not a hell of a lot of media on that one, but we will. We'll bring it to you next week and it will be interesting. Excellent. All right. Thanks for joining us everyone. Stay curious, crime besties. Bye.