REPLAY Episode 24 - Jane Thurgood-Dove

0:16 Welcome back to Crime Besties. We're here for another episode, up to episode 24 this week. Hi Emma, how you going? I'm great Meg, we hit a bit of a milestone this week and I'm a bit excited you shared it on our socials. We hit 10,000 listens across all of our episodes so far. So in less than a week after that, we're at 10 1/2 thousand, yeah. Yeah, we're, we're gearing up for almost 11,000 now. So thank you to everybody for listening and we love the fact that it's like gaining traction and we, you know, we're getting more and more amazing feedback.

0:47 We had some really nice feedback this week from a listener who we don't neither of us know. I think we mentioned somebody last week who we don't know and you know, this person's been leaving some really lovely comments and and liking a lot of our posts. So thank you very much to Sweetheart Nail Studio. That's her handle. I could do with a good nail studio too. Where are you? Yeah, actually, yeah. Let us know. But anyone who wants to follow, I had a quick look at her Instagram and it looks gorgeous.

1:15 So I hope she's local. So thanks so much for listening and and to everybody who who is listening, we really, really appreciate it. So thank you. Yes, for sure. How has your week been otherwise? Yeah, it's been a week. I'm Yep, surviving this week. We'll put it that way. Yeah. Yeah. How about you? Because you've had a week. We've had a bit of a week. I think I mentioned in one of our episodes a few weeks ago that my son injured himself and needed some stitches. And unfortunately, just due to the nature of of where he, he had the cut and oh, anyway, it's split open again and he ended up you.

1:57 Messaged me on Monday like I just was like no like. This is crazy. It needed to be surgically revised yesterday. So anyway, look, we're on the right path now, but he's in a brace. He's. So he's 10 years old. He's probably one of the most active people I know. And he's in a brace from fire to calf because he can't bend his knee for at least two weeks. So good luck to us. Yeah, I was. Gonna say it's more good luck to. You. Yeah. Godspeed.

2:25 I know I was racking my brain, like after I'd spoken to him, this is what was kind of happening. I'm like, what can we do? What what can we like? Yeah, give him to like entertain him like, no Google searching things like, like, Oh my God. Because you're gonna go a bit crazy. I. Think, look, we're lucky he loves a video game and he's got a few shows that he wants to watch in a movie or two. So oh, that'll get there. Yeah, but then it's kind of like don't ruin all the Christmas holidays. That's. Right.

2:52 Well, hopefully Christmas holidays we can be more active and do this is. It by then. The hippies will be fine you. Won't wanna go to the movies or won't wanna go to like, yeah, yeah, that's it, That's it. Although you do have to work on certain days I guess and I think. That's true. That's true. We'll just shout out and I'll come and grab him. Thanks. I'm not taking him to a basketball court. Can we just rule that one? Out. Yeah, Fair call. Yeah, The last time that that actually was on the last day of work last year.

3:15 Yeah, Meg and I'd thought we'd we'd get the boys together for a bit of a pre Christmas catch up. Yeah. And Ollie broke his arm really badly so. It was more seconds of getting to the park. Yeah, Oh my God, and that needed surgery as well. It's just odd. He's it's I mean, look, active kids, these things happen. It's. Why his nickname is what it is? Yep, All of a sudden. All of a sudden, yeah. I love that. Yeah, it's so good. Suds for short.

3:43 Oh, it suits him to a team. It certainly does. He is who he is and we love him for it. Yeah, so that's that'll be our weekend. He's just He's home from school today and resting up but. So if you hear some noise in the background, it's just him, I don't know, killing someone on Fortnite? Yeah, exactly. Well, a couple of his mates are home from school today. I just had a message from one of the mums to say that they're on online together so at least he's being entertained. Oh gosh, there's a few bugs going around.

4:08 So yeah, I'm sure there are a few kids at home. Yeah. Oh, that's so funny. I knew, I knew he wouldn't interrupt us as long as I gave him Fortnite and some snacks, food, yeah, he'll be absolutely fine. I know I went out there before. I love it though. I said to you know how you're feeling. He goes. I'm all right, but I'm bit busy on my game. Like, yeah, thank you for asking, Birds. Please don't interrupt any further. Oh God, he's so cute. Gorgeous. Oh gosh. So let's get into today's episode. I guess we interesting one.

4:40 It is an interesting one. There's not a lot of information out there, but we are talking today about the case of Jane Thurgood Dove. Jane was born on the 17th of March in 1963 and she met her husband, Mark Thurgood Dove, when they were at school. So they were like, you know, high school sweethearts and they had three children at the time of at the time of this incident. Mum speak about them as a couple and a family. It was just beautiful. I had, I sort of had a bit of a tear in my eye, like, you know, yeah, the way she sort of spoke about, you know, the fact that they were like the perfect family, which is just lovely.

5:16 They were. They were meant to be together. Yeah, and a lot of love in the home. You know, they were a really, you know what, what you would want a suburban family to be. Yeah. Mum, dad and three kids. Yeah. At the time of the incident, their eldest son Scott was 11 years old, Ashley daughter was six years old and their youngest daughter, Holly, was three years old. Yeah, Jane's parents were very involved in their family life and it sounds like they were incredible, an incredibly close and tight knit sort of extended family.

5:49 Her parents were John and Helen McGill. We'll be talking about them a lot as the episode goes through because they are pivotal in in terms of the way this case played out. They're just amazing people. Strong people. Really strong people to this day. Like there's, there's stuff out there from, you know, as recently as 2021 where they're still in the media advocating for certain things. Again, we'll get to that as the time goes on. On the 6th of November in 1997. Two days. Ago like we're so like. Yeah, well, yesterday for us, as in like yesterday was Oaks Day.

6:29 We're recording the day after Oaks Day today. So this happened on Oaks Day, which happened to be the 6th of November in 1997. Jane had picked up the three kids, so obviously it's still a school day. She picked up the two eldest from school and the youngest from daycare I believe, or preschool. I think so, yeah. From what I can gather, either that or she was at home with her. She was doing home duties kind of stuff. The day. Yeah, doing that, all those sorts of things, 'cause they got to the school pickup and I know she had a chat with one of the school mums and there was actually a conversation around, hey, come over and bring the kids, have a cup of coffee after school pickup.

7:07 To which she'd responded. I've literally got a load of washing on at home, so I'm gonna go. I need to go home and put that out, you know? So we'll give it a miss today. Yeah, yeah. So she's picked the kids up from school and headed straight home instead. I just wonder whether had that friend gone, whether things would have ended differently. I don't know. Because given, given the nature of what happened next, yes, I would imagine they were gonna do what they were gonna do regardless of who was there.

7:32 Yeah. Exactly. So Jane has pulled into the driveway of her home in Muriel St. Nidri IN Melbourne. So it's in a northern suburb of Melbourne near Essendon, is probably the most prominent, yeah. Suburb out of out of the city, I think, yeah. It's not far. Yeah, as she's pulled into the driveway, a blue, a metallic blue Holden Commodore, late model Holden Commodore has pulled up behind her and basically blocked her into her driveway. Yeah, and a pot bellied man gets out of the car with a gun. He chases her around the car twice.

8:08 So at this stage, the three kids are still strapped into the back. She's literally just pulled into the driveway. Elders. Was in the front seat and her two younger ones in the back, but they remained in the car. Yeah. And strapped into that, the at least the two in the back was still in car seats. So they were still, you know, still strapped in. Yeah, this man shot her twice. So she he's chased her around the car twice. She's then tripped and fallen as she's trying to get away and he shot her at point blank range twice.

8:37 Yep, right in the back of the head. Yep. He run down the driveway to the car that was parked at the bottom and jumped straight into the passenger seat where there was a scrawny looking guy with sort of longish hair, graying dark hair. And he has floored it. And they've driven off down Mural Street, by the way, end of Muriel Street. Do you know what the name of the road is? What? Hoffman Rd. Spelt incorrectly. Of course it is. I didn't see that. And then I was looking at him. I was like, oh, that's funny.

9:08 Oh, that is funny. That's interesting. That's my surname for those people. Yeah, they've jumped straight in the car. So he's, there's obviously a driver and this guy who's committed the the actual act lips straight in the car, driven off quite speedily down the road and taken off. Yeah. So there's a couple of witnesses to this whole event, except neighbors, obviously they've heard gunshots. Whatever have seen been out in the neighborhood has seen, have seen the incident as well as obviously, unfortunately her three children who were in the car and have witnessed this as well.

9:35 Yeah. So in terms of those witnesses, what did you find out about them? Not a lot, did you? Find anything I. Couldn't the only so I only found something about one of the witnesses. I know he was a male. He was walking just walking in the street at the time. He was standing on the other side of the road, but he saw enough that he was actually able to eventually successfully identify the purse. The gunman, yes. So the gunman was not like disguised in any way, I think did did he have anything covering his face?

10:08 I don't think he. Did. No, no. So Bella Club, that comes up into things later, Yeah, I don't. Believe he was wearing it at the time, but. The the best description that came from the witness of of those people on the street, but also then also her oldest son is this Potbelly was the most definitive, like sort of that he was short and pot bellied. Yeah, like sort of beer belly, kind of. Yeah. So he's, you know, obviously the witnesses, they've gone to try and assist in any way. But I mean, she was shot at point blank range.

10:39 There was no assisting her. She she had had died in that, in that, in that instance. Yeah, the police obviously attend the scene and the homicide squad is called in. Yes, they pretty was heading up the homicide squad. Well, I don't think he was on that first day. He was. Was he on the first day? He got the phone call just after 4:00 PM to head out to the to the scene. Yep. So we're talking about none other than Ron Idols. We have mentioned before on this show and in Melbourne. He is like well known to Melbourne around he's he headed up the homicide squad for 20 years or something.

11:14 Yeah, yeah. So he's amazing. He's just incredibly beautiful, man. We've seen him speak live and he's just great. But he's got his own podcasts and he's got his own TV series called The Good Cop where he talks about cases. So he's got like a 99% success rate from all the homicides that he's looked into over his years of experience. So this was his. So yeah, he got the phone call come in just after 4:00 PM to head out to Muriel Street. And from all the information he got at that point was that it was a drive by shooting and that to go and check this woman has been shot.

11:49 So when he's arrived on the scene, he's basically said that he as he walked in, he saw, you know, this beautiful woman in a, you know, youngish 34 year old woman with three children's been brutally murdered. And the three kids at that stage, the police had already removed them from the scene and taken them down to a milk bar down the road. So he after assessing the scene and directing people as to where he wanted them to because he was obviously the head of the of this scene at that point, he's then wandered down to the milk bar to go and have a chat with the kids.

12:19 So, and I'm sorry, but if any detective was going to interview my children at a point of that, I would have Ron Iddles any day of the week. He would or Narelle Fraser. Utterly beautiful. Yes, Absolutely. Yeah. So I'm certain that the only reason he got as much information as he did at that time is because he is so incredibly beautiful. So he spoke to young Scott, who was like 10 1/2, eleven. At the time, 11, yeah. Yeah, so he spoke to him about things. I mean, can you only imagine that poor kid at that in that point?

12:48 And he was able to describe the man. But he's actually Ron's first question to him, what was going through his head was, as we all do, a mum, a woman killed. Who do you first immediately think Dad. Dad the husband. Yeah. What's the issue here? Where's Dad? What's the idea? So he was expecting to find out that they were separated, if not, you know, for a long time recently, something, something tumultuous. So his first question to Scott is where's Dad, mate? Expecting to hear. Oh, you know, you know, that he dad had been the one who was there or, you know, or something along the lines.

13:22 And he said dad's dad went for work to work this morning, you know, so he's like immediately, OK, not separated. This is different. So it immediately sparked for him that this was something very unusual. I think I've heard Ron mentioned the fact that, you know, this is where you start, of course, because 8 out of 10 murders in your home are committed by your significant other. We've spoken about the statistics. Yeah. So we've spoken about this in, we've spoken about this in previous episodes as well.

13:51 And if it's not your intimate partner, then I think it's like 9 times out of 10, the person is known to you in some way, same way. So the police have actually gone to Marks place of work. He worked at a factory in Broadmeadows. And they wanted to see what his reaction was like when they told him, yeah, that his wife had been murdered. And apparently, according to Ron, the reaction was absolutely that, yeah, of a distressed and distraught human being who had no idea. So obviously they needed to corroborate his alibi and all of that sort of stuff.

14:29 Some people are. Very good at, you know, acting so you can't rule it out, but not at all. But from everyone's point of view at that point was like, well, this isn't a a clean cut. Yeah, that's for damn sure. That's it, yeah. At the same time, they've sent another detective, a different detective around to John and Helen Mcgill's house. And their retelling of this breaks my heart. So the detective knocks on their door. It's about 5:50 PM on on the day of the murder, so on Oaks Day. And it sounds like they were sort of fairly interested in horse racing because they'd actually been watching the races on the TV.

15:04 Yeah. And decided to have a bit of an early dinner. The they described the evening as a lovely warm evening. And, you know, they're getting getting dinner already and they're sitting down and having their dinner and there's a knock on the door. They go and answer the door and the detective who presents says to them, are you, is Jane your daughter? They say yes. And let me just get, I'm sorry. Let me just get the exact quote because it it's absolutely horrible. Oh, sorry. The the detective says you have a daughter, Jane.

15:42 They say yes. And this detective says she's been shot and she is now dead. Who was that that sent? Which I don't know. They've never named that detective. Well, it wasn't Ron, I'll put. Give it it wasn't Ron. It absolutely they know they've said it wasn't Ron because they've then since had a lot of dealings with Ron. Yes, but when I like I've heard the mum actually interviewed and she said this quote, I'm like what the fuck? Who says who says that? And this was at their door, apparently. Oh, yeah.

16:17 How would you even react to that? No, you'd. Be like what are you talking? About yeah, and, and this detectives also said something along the lines of well, we're gonna need to eliminate you because you're a suspect, which they say now of course we had to be eliminated, we totally understand that, but. It's like there was like blunt about, I mean, yeah, that conversation happens while she come in and have a cup of tea, like and like. Or I mean, look, I understand. I understand having to be direct, because you can't.

16:46 There's no, there's no skirting around the truth. Your daughter has been murdered. That needs to be stated. Absolutely don't go. She's been shot and now she's dead. No, but like you say, can we talk? Unfortunately, we've got some bad news. Yeah, like you. You OK. And look, yeah, I do understand the whole idea, you know, and I think from what I, because what I read about it, like I read it obviously not to that detail. And when I read that she was talking about the fact that they'd been told you'll need to be eliminated as as as suspects, the way I sort of read it was like, you know, yeah.

17:22 And she was very accepting of that. They were. Yeah. But I thought I didn't realize it was that blunt of a conversation though of the way that came out. Like, yeah, I understood it with the point of like, I'm glad they've been open with them and saying like, obviously in this situation to make sure that we are covering all bases to find the right person, you immediately as family, et cetera, have to be included in that of people that we look at like absolutely. Yep. Good. Do your job, you know, please clear me and do because I know I can be, you know, like that's that's it.

17:49 Please do your job. Yeah, because this I want the person founders. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. But wow, that's so blunt. Anyway, in the end, her parents and her husband Mark, were eliminated as suspects. Like, they were absolutely, categorically they had no involvement in her murder. Yeah. So now the police are sort of at a point where they're like, OK, next sort of circle out. Let's figure out what we can. Define they still had mark on their radar as potential. Nothing was glaringly obviously that could be, could be.

18:18 Him, but he could have organized something. You just don't know. Yeah. Well, that's sort of looking at it like that. So basically Mark was still not ruled out, but definitely her parents and that sort of yeah. So they started looking at to see who else could be there. Yeah. And I've, I've read a few different scenarios as to how they move to their next suspect on their list. So I'd be I'm intrigued to hear what you have you only heard one or have you heard multiple ways in which? This is 1. So what I found was that they actually found they were going through James a handbag.

18:47 Yes. And at the bottom of her handbag, there was a phone number scribbled on a piece of paper. OK, so yeah, Ron tells slightly different. OK, He says that it was a in her handbag, but it was a card, like a business card. Like so a business card for the. Yeah, police. Yeah, Yeah. OK. But I've also heard that it was an anonymous tip.

19:10 Oh, yeah. Oh, I haven't heard that one. Yeah. Do we know anything? More about that. The other one I've heard is that her dad was a butcher. Yep. And he worked at like the Mooney Ponds market and had his butchery there and that obviously then Jane would be around that a fair bit, spent time down there around the markets. And this particular person also spent time at the markets and went to that butcher's and they met each other there. Yes. So I I think that's how they met, right? Yeah. So I'm pretty sure the way this police officer and Jane met is because the police officer would organise the fortnightly BBQ at the police station on a Friday night, right?

19:50 And would buy their sausages and meat from Jane's dad. Because I've I've jumped ahead of myself. Sorry. My yeah, you have a bit, but that's. OK, I've heard another way of how they met too. Oh, right, yeah. Anyway, well, this is this is what I've heard yeah, that that they met and as a as a consequence of being such a good customer of John Jane's dad, yes. And being around so frequently, they've met they've developed a bit of a friendship outside of the butchery slash police and we're known acquaintances, probably not friends.

20:26 And then they've introduced at some point, Jane's been introduced to this police officer in that, in that sort of social circle. Right, because what Ron tells it as is that she was his. House cleaner. He she was. That's how they met those. That is true too. So they they met in this way, and Jane was just looking for a little bit of extra money. Yeah, she wasn't working in any official capacity at the time. She had young kids, and we all know what the juggle is like. You need flexibility in whatever role you've got when you've got young children.

20:59 So she was doing little odd jobs like that. And he was looking for a cleaner. He was a single man, yeah, working probably pretty crazy hours and stuff, and decided that he wanted to clean up. And so it was through John's. So John, Jane's dad, yes, that they sort of made this connection and that's how that came. About OK, so both are true like because I was reading. Both are true, yeah. How does that all feel? Love it. OK great. I was hoping that would be the case to be honest, because then it all comes together.

21:29 It really does. So, Jane. So whether it's on a scrap piece of paper or there's this police card, they've called him. They've called this police officer. Yeah, we can't name this guy because nobody knows his name. It's never been released into the media at all. So we will call him the police officer. There's no other way in which we can describe him. But they've contacted him and when they've gone to his house to sort of figure out what the go was, they've found some really interesting things. They firstly looked at him and he fit the description of the shorter.

22:09 Belly man? Yeah. That was first, uh oh, yeah. But yeah. And then they walked in. They walked in and what do they see? They see a shrine to Jane. He was obsessed by her. He. Obsessed. Oddly obsessed, They've confiscated his or had a look at his. I don't know that they took his laptop away, but they've tried. To access, Ron tried to access his computer and he went, I can't get on it like can you? Can we have a look on your computer? And he goes, oh, it's the password's Jane's birthday. Yeah. 170363.

22:42 So that was another red flag. Massive red flag. Yep. And then subsequently, yeah, he also purchased or tried to I. Know he actually did, but he definitely changed his will. He changed his will. Yeah, he did. He also tried to later on. So as this investigation progressed, yeah, he tried to buy a burial plot next to where Jane was buried. Yeah.

23:12 Wow. Yep. So wow. Wow, this is looking really bad. For him it is especially because he also wasn't cooperating with police. No. Well, that that's kind of I can. And there's one sort of description I've heard of that that I kind of go, all right, I can understand now a little bit of why he was so uncooperative. Did you listen to Andrew Rules podcast I think? About it or it wasn't. Yeah, because Oh well, they're almost one and they're saying they're both awesome. Yeah, great journalists, great and great podcasters, Yeah.

23:42 Yeah. So because he was a police officer, he obviously contacted his union. So and the police union have very good lawyers attached to them. So I mean, as we would say to anyone who's being looked out for a look for anything, whether you're innocent or guilty, lawyer up. Like you don't want to be caught in a trap of anything like with police. So you lawyer up. So that's what the union have basically done with this guy and they have instructed him to not comment. Yeah, but in in not commenting though he's obstructed yes things and and he's not taking favour.

24:15 It certainly hasn't. And Ron had a little bit of a chat with him about that later on. Yeah, yeah. So we'll get to there. We will get to that, actually, yeah, we'll talk about that a little. Bit later, but basically at this point he's looking like someone who is potentially could he have put, could there be a rejection here from Jane and that's basically triggered him to murder her? Yep. So it's looking pretty dodgy for him. Things are not looking great. I mean, he's, as you said, physically meets the description.

24:45 He's got a shrine to her in his house. Her birth date is his computer password. A lot of things are adding up here. Did you find anything out about whether they actually had a relationship or not? This no and I you can't confirm it. He says yes, but is that very once it's very one sided, you're only getting his side of that. If he had this like weird obsessive thing, maybe like things were conjured up in his head. Although there was a one hour phone call, one hour 15 minute phone call, which, and this was like a less than a week before the murder.

25:20 Yeah. So they've checked obviously when they raided his house sort of thing, they've found he's gone in through his phone records. Yeah. And so he said at the time that he had a 15 minute phone call with her or one minute phone call, sorry, on that particular date. And then when they've gone and checked his phone records, it turns out the phone call was not a minute. It was an hour and 15 minutes, which to me, someone who if you're like, I'm not interested in this guy, you're having an hour and 15 minute phone.

25:44 Call, no, you're not. But she, from everything everyone has said about her, she was a really caring, compassionate, really kind and lovely woman. If she thought, I mean, she obviously would have known he had this obsession with her. Maybe she was just trying to be really nice and talk him down and, you know, I don't know. And maybe that phone call was there. Look, I'm not interested. Phone call. Yeah, and I'm gonna let you down gently and. We'll talk this through. She was really maybe. I mean, as females we are taught to be nice and we probably shouldn't sometimes.

26:17 We shouldn't, absolutely. So yeah, I I can when you put it into that sort of context, yeah, maybe. And that's maybe why he didn't want people to know how long the phone call was. Like, you know, maybe it was like, you know, yeah, we've had a brief chat like cuz we're. Cool. Yeah, we have these quick one minute chats because we talk all the time, Yeah. So basically at this point, we've got Mark's kind of on the radar still. He's not ruled out, but he's not. But there's nothing glaring obvious with him.

26:41 The police, the police. Officer as well, just really quickly. Sorry, you know, go. I mean, he also had no alibi for the day. There was nobody. He was not working that. Day and he lived on his own. There was nobody to corroborate his whereabouts at all, so another red flag. Lining up for him of like going this is bad. So this this point Ron is actually having a chat with as he does his underworld connections, which we need to get into like some Melbourne underworld stories down the track. That'll be a series that will not be a single no no.

27:13 There's a lot in that that we can get into. But yeah, there's a man within that underworld met by the name of Des Moran, otherwise known as Tuppence. Tuppence loving. OK, Sorry. Anyway, Ron as he does, he has connections with these people. He is, he's beautiful with everyone he speaks to. He's not just caring and lovely to the people who are victims. He builds these relationships with the people he needs to to get information. Yep. So he's and he's very respectful, very respectful. The way he speaks about people is just generally very amazing.

27:46 So anyway, he's caught up for a chat with Tuppence and Tuppence says to him I've got a bit of info for you and what he says is that there was a pot bellied man who came into the cafe where he would regularly mate hang. Yep, I could probably name it. We won't. What do we mean in Carlton? Are there so. You don't say. Yeah, so there was this man came in and he paid someone else $2000 to loan a gun. Now, so this guy does that leaves. With this gun, no questions, no questions asked. As you know, comes back though, days later and to return the gun and the guy responds to this pot bellied man.

28:33 Oh, Nah, Nah, Nah, Nah. I don't want to touch that gun. That's dirty. You killed Jane Thurgood Dove. And the pot bellied man turns back and goes, yeah, I did because her husband Mark told me, paid me to do it. Did he though? So yeah, so anyway, this is the information he's got from a Philly. Well, what's the word for it? Not a reputable source. Reputable source, but at the same time certainly in the know. So he's had to take this information as it is and go, well, this isn't helping Mark's case.

29:10 Let's we can't we can't rule him out Still. He's there's now another bigger question Mark over him than there was, but not enough to be going and arresting anybody, obviously. So this has caused a fair bit of confusion for Ron. So at this point, being who he is, he has decided he wants to use some very different technology to kind of help him rule someone out. And he's gone into what at this point in time in 1997, it wasn't widely used. And it's certainly he's even as he said he goes, was never going to use this in a court, but he decided to use a polygraph machine.

29:42 So he brought in Mark and he brought in the police officer to sit down and do a polygraph. And from the polygraphs they found that Mark passed the shining colours. He completely passed. He was very truthful in what he said he, but he had no involvement in Jane's death. So he that really settled it for Ron that he could eliminate him from it. But the police officer did not pass the polygraph. But again, can't be used in court and doesn't go to the point of saying you can't you killed her. So we can't charge him still.

30:18 But it's definitely still a massive question mark over the police officer. The question that they posed to him during this polygraph was, are you responsible for the death of Jane Thurgood Dove? And he said no, but all of the physical indications showed that he was being deceitful. Yeah. So, OK, this adds more weight to the fact that this police officer has had something to do with Jane's death in some way.

30:49 Let's leave that there for now. Yeah, I was. Going to say, do you want to come back to? It I think we come back to. That, yeah. So basically right at this point in time, we're looking at mark has been eliminated, but the police officer is still question marks. This goes on and on and on. And they're not finding any more information. There's no more. Three years down the track, they organize an undercover operation of which we have no knowledge of. We it's, and that's rightfully so. Those kind of operations are very, they don't like to release what their tactics are and those sorts of things because obviously then under undercover operations won't work.

31:25 Yeah. They can't become public knowledge how they operate with those things. Although I do have a friend who's an undercover cop, but I can't name it. Anyway, I heard a few things, but interesting, very interesting work. So, yeah, anyway, undercover operation happens. From whatever came of that undercover operation, they were able to eliminate the police officer. Ron sat down with that guy after eliminating him and said to him, mate, you have wasted our time because you have dodged questions, made yourself look guilty.

32:04 And his response to that was, well, I wanted to protect Jane's name because I didn't want it out there that she'd had an affair.

32:15 He also admitted at the time that when he was asked about about that question during the polygraph about whether he he was responsible for the death of Jane Thurgood Dove, and he said no. The reason it came up as him being deceitful is because at that time he thought that Mark had found out that they were having an affair and Mark killed her. So he's rageful and yeah, he felt responsible in some way for her murder. So. That's why it came up positive, Yeah. Because he did feel responsible, Yes, According to him.

32:44 According to him. But then So what I find really, I, I just think it's bizarre, if you actually really cared for Jane and you really wanted an outcome where they would find the person who's bloody well murdered her, why be obstructionist? Why not just put everything out on the table? I understand in the initial instance that he's had that legal advice from the police union and from a criminal lawyer who was employed by the police union. So that's fine. But surely at some point you would be like, OK, I'm actually, I need an on the record interview now to actually go through and state everything I know.

33:20 I mean, he knew he wasn't responsible for her death. Why couldn't he just come out there and say that? Yep, and put it on record. And say what happened. Yeah, like. And as you said. Ron Ryan I somewhat think though, that's because I don't know that there was a relationship there and I think he was by not saying anything and alluding to things, it made him look like more like he was. He was able to get Jane. I agree with that. I agree with what you're saying. I just think he's why. Is this man a police officer and is he still?

33:50 I think he is, which really? Yeah, Fuck. I mean, I don't know if he is now like, you know, however many years later. And things of people. But I know he continued to be a police officer for many years after this absolutely incident. Yep. So basically, so now we're at a point of like, who's responsible for this? Nothing. What do we do three years down the track? So time ticks on further. And this is where John Miguel really comes into the forefront because he goes into bat for his daughter, basically, and he actually asks of the government to put up a $1 million reward to find out information about Jane.

34:29 Can I? This is quite. Yeah. Do you want to go and explain how that all? Yeah, I can, but we just need to go back a little bit. So this actually happened, that happened in 2001. So just previous to this though, another SO Andrew Rule, who was a journalist, and John Sylvester, they were working together at the time and they'd heard a tip because again, a bit like Ron, they had connections to underworld figures and to crooks and whatever. And they decided because they were looking into the story and what could have possibly happened, they were really curious.

35:03 So they actually decided to door knock down near Drew St. and figure find out what was going. On Yeah, but Ron tells a different story of how, like legally I guess it came up. Yeah, yeah. Well, this is it. I mean, the the journalist reporting, they obviously have to be careful as well, but this is this is what they say happened. Yeah. They've knocked on the door of, you know, several neighbors in in the street and it has come to light that potentially there was somebody else in the street who may have been a target, a potential target for this gangland style killing.

35:37 Yes. So Muriel St. Yeah. Jane, Jane and Mark's house was three houses from the corner. They lived in a light coloured weatherboard house. There was a street light out the front of their house. Jane drove a four wheel drive, a blue Jane, a blue Toyota, a very blue Land Cruiser. Jane had blonde hair and three children, three young children and school. Aged. Yep. Yep. A woman by the name of Carmel Kipri or Kipri you Kipriyano. Kipriyano. That's it. But they they go by Kipri. Yeah, also lived in Muriel St. Nidri.

36:23 She also had blonde hair. Three houses from a corner, light post out the front. Drove a similar 4 wheel drive. Had three children. Who was school aged? Yep, Yep. OK, so there's. Lots and lots of similarities. Similarities. Yep. Two women. Yep. Carmel's husband, Peter Kipri. He's a really interesting character. So Peter Kipri was involved in drugs in the underworld. He had a very unlikable person. Yeah. Not the nice, not the nicest person in in the room. No, he pulled off some kind of $200,000 insurance fraud.

37:12 Yeah. With a With a man. With a man by the name of Philip Peters also. Known as. How could this? Mr. Laundry because he could clean millions of underbelly money. So this guy was an ex solicitor by the way, and he's like somehow found himself into the underworld. He's a lawyer. He's a lawyer. At this stage, like, you know, like while he's doing this, he's a lawyer, OK? Oh yeah, yeah, maybe just now he's an ex. Now, because after all this, yeah, like he had to be knocked off the bar. So the way that I understand it, it's quite a complicated story, but I think Philip Peters has basically commissioned the death at some point, the death of Peter Kipra, yes, he that did not happen well.

38:02 Yeah, so Peter Kipriu, I know he got a tip off that it was happening via the police. There was 'cause obviously the cops went to a fair bit of all this stuff at the time and he's, they've actually been able to infiltrate and stop the hit happening. Yeah. So Peter has survived it. However Mr. Laundry ended up in I think it was 1994. April 1994, he was arrested and charged with conspiracy to murder and obviously because him being a lawyer, pretty nifty bargaining. He did some good play work, and he ended up being released from jail in 1997, mere months before Jane Thurgood Dove was murdered.

38:46 That's it. So the inference now is that you know Peters has. So Peters has consulted with another man named John who was an ex butcher. Now this is not Jane's dad. Well, he was hired so that he could butcher people and get rid of bodies that didn't. That ended up not working, obviously. This is then when Peters has gone to prison. Yeah. Peters has come out of prison. Yeah. And he's like. Whilst in prison, Oh yes, he made some connections with some pretty heavy criminals in jail, one being a particular Geelong bikie.

39:31 Just put that under your hat for the moment. So we'll come back around to Geelong Bikies. We will carefully. So the basically they've decided, well, we can't go after Peter Kipri because everyone's looking out. Yeah, everyone's looking out for him and whatever. So they've decided to put a hit out on his wife, Carmel. Well, that's yeah. So this is what we everyone's making an assumption of it that yeah, at the point, like, yeah, yeah, yeah. But there's no proof of it. No evidence. No. Like, so. And they still don't know.

40:06 OK, Maybe that's what Philip Peters did, Mr. Laundry. But who are the people who actually committed the crime? Like itself, as much as I probably hold him more accountable than anyone, but there's but there's actually people who committed it. Well, they know he didn't pull the tree. No he doesn't. The physical description. He had another aim. Someone. Yep, which comes back to good old Tuppence and his info being pretty accurate. Other than the fact that it wasn't Mark, it wasn't the husband that was putting the hit out, which I mean, God, who knows Hitman.

40:38 Not exactly the most intelligent people. Well. Clearly we had no idea who this guy was that was actually asking him to do this job. And I don't know where he even got the name Mark. I mean, we'd probably got Mark at that point out in the media because the fact was it was the wrong woman. And if they he and all the information they were given, apparently from this Peter Mr. Laundry was three houses down from the corner. The blonde haired woman who drives 3/4 wheel drive. So I saw something that they were actually following Jane for four days before they murdered her.

41:10 So that was the thing like that, that in their investigation they found out that because obviously that we should go back a little bit, that that that car that was parked at the bottom of her driveway that the shooter got in and drove off in was later found burnt out, unfortunately, which meant there was no evidence in it. So these guys knew what they were doing in that sense. So that was that made it a little bit more like this is a bit of a professional hit in some ways, as much as a hit can be professional because they aren't the sharpest tools in the shed usually.

41:40 So. But the neighbors had were able to say, we've seen that car like that blue Holden Commodore that you've shown us on the news now, all those sorts of things that was here a few days ago. I saw it parked down that end of the road on that day and I've seen it parked there on that day. So it was kind of coming together a bit of like this was she was being surveilled. Yeah, You know, in some ways so the. Police also, you know, this added to the fact that it was a professional hit in terms of the car, that car, because it had actually been stolen like 6 months prior, Yeah.

42:10 And hidden somewhere, Yeah. So that there wasn't people weren't actively out looking for it. And so that also goes to potentially gangland type people who knew what they were doing at least a degree sort of knew what they were doing. Yeah. But if we circle back around to 2001 when the $1,000,000 reward was being so John McGill, who was, he was very determined that he wanted to, he wanted to find out who did this. And I think with the overhanging of this of like, was this a mistaken identity situation?

42:40 Was is there something that was wrong here? And he wanted to know what? Happened to his daughter. So him and a few people got together, so they that wanted answers on their own children's missing and murdered cases. So there was George and Christina Helviges whose daughter Messina was killed at Faulkner, who was called at the Faulkner Cemetery in October 1997. Roger and Joy Memory, whose daughter Elizabeth disappeared from Ringwood, which is not far from us, her unit in Ringwood in 1994. So the six parents who'd all lost daughters in terrible situations decided to come together and approach the government and ask for these, this $1,000,000 reward to get some answers on these cases.

43:25 So at the time we had Premier Steve Brax. We can. Yeah. Anyways, so he, to his credit, many people didn't want to do this. But to his credit, he decided to put the money up so. So this was specifically a reward, Yes. For information relating to an arrest or progression of a case. Yeah. Where it was a seemingly random attack on a victim. Yeah. We will do a an episode about Messina Hel Vargas because that's a really interesting case. And the. The perpetrator. Oh, my God. I mean, there's so much out there about it.

44:01 Yeah. The $1 million reward, once it was posted, basically within 48 hours, the names of the two people were in the, you know, Crime Stoppers had been contacted in the names of the two people who were involved in Jane's death. Yeah. Were told to the police, Yeah. So criminals are obviously, you know, they're, they're tight until you offer a $1 million reward. Yeah. Just really quickly. Yeah. Previous to this, there was a reward for Jane's. Sorry, you know, in, in relation to Jane's case of $100,000.

44:41 Yeah. Messina Helvargus, her parents, so they're of Greek descent. And there was a $50,000 reward out for her, you know, for information relating to her case. And her dad came out and said when Jane's $100,000 reward was announced, he came out and said, what, So a blonde Australian woman is worth twice the amount of my Greek daughter. And that is actually how John McGill and I can't remember Messina's dad's name, but how that's how they sort of connected and George, George, and that's how they sort of got together and started lobbying the government for this $1 million reward.

45:22 So. Put on them, yeah, I mean, yeah, he really though they did a lot to get that over the line and but rightly so. And as you say, the tips came in very quickly for all three of those cases. Both the other two cases were solved. Yep. Very, very quickly now for Jane Thurgood, Dove tips came in real quick. Within 30 minutes, they got a tip that they would they carried on that they followed up that was gave them brilliant information. However, to this day it still remains unsolved. So that great tip came from a crook who rang in and what Ron did was because basically this moon dollar reward was there.

46:02 He was like, I don't want to get false information. And this guy was pretty high up in things. So he offered him 10 grand First off to meet up and then to straight up give him 10 grand when they arrived when he arrived. So Can you imagine this cop like rocking up with his water cash like to hand over to him and he said, if the information you give me checks out, I'll follow up with a four with 40 grand. So he heads down to meet this crook down in Eastern Beach, right? And so he's in his car and I just love this quote from from from Ron Idols.

46:34 He goes, I was shitting myself. That's a technical term for being very nervous.

46:44 And I love the fact that he's so honest about the fact that he's full on crooks. And he's not. He's not in their world, like as much as he is. But he isn't. He's not one of them, but he he carries himself with them. So he he. But you look at Ronnie, you think he's this big gruff, you know, brave man. Yeah, of course you'd be shooting yourself. He's a teddy bear. Let's be honest. He's such a lovely man. Yeah. So I love that. So this is where it was confirmed by. Well, not confirmed by this guy yet.

47:10 So he told him the story of that it's mistaken identity and everything and things that he'd already heard. So again, Ron wanted to really check this information, obviously again. And because he got a fair bit more information about who these characters were that were involved, he then went down to Barwon Prison and spoke to yet yet another really badass person. But at least he's behind bars and not in the same car as him handing cash over. Good point. Yeah, I feel that would be a lot more safe. And this guy in Barwon Prison confirmed everything this guy said, but he wasn't just able to describe these people.

47:43 He also, well, sorry, he did the same. They gave the exact same names as well involved. So the Potbelly killer, he was nominated as a former Rebels Motorcycle Club bikie by the name of Stephen John Morty. So he was also in photos and things like they showed witnesses, people were able to identify. That's the guy. Yeah. So that that that witness that I was talking about, the neighbor who was standing across the road. Yeah. He picked Morty out of a lineup. Yeah. A. Photograph, Photograph out because I was fortunately at this point in time.

48:18 So this is 2003. Yes, in 2001 Morty died. So. He drug overdose. And well, yeah, OK, sorry, I'll get a little bit more into him. So I was looking up some biky websites. God, your browser history, Our browser history said like, not crash. Yeah, totally. Don't go looking at mine. Sorry. This is. I'm sorry, but because I have no sympathy for this man, so I'm just going to go into it. All right, So, yeah, go. So Morty complained that he was not feeling very well, but he ate a cherry ripe and some ice cream before vomiting and still managed after that to finish off 2 bottles of Coke.

48:57 Healthy man, pot bellied. I believe the next morning his housemate didn't go into his room because he was he liked to sleep in and stuff, so he didn't check on him at all. But about 2:50 in the afternoon, the housemate went in to check on him and found that he had no pulse. So they believe that he, yeah, there was drugs in his system, but it was more likely cardiac arrest, which could have been caused by the drugs potentially, but also could have been just generally his lifestyle in general. I think, I think that's right.

49:35 They, I know the level of drugs. It was heroin at the level that they found in his system was not compatible with life. So, yeah, whatever way that all came about, yeah. Yeah, but I love it. Cherry ripe and some ice cream. And two bottles of Coke when he wasn't feeling good. Although last night, OK, so we were talking before about how Ollie had had this operation yesterday and I was so tired. I didn't sleep the the night before. Yeah, Last night we had dinner and then after dinner I was like, I really feel like eating something sweet.

50:04 I was so tired. But, you know, I just needed a sugar. Yeah. So I ate ice cream, a chocolate bar, and then I raided the kids Halloween lollies. And by the end, by the time it was time to go to bed, I was like vibing on another level. And I woke up, I actually woke up this morning feeling so yuck because I think I just had so much sugar, hangover sugar. Hangover. It wasn't even an alcohol hangover. Have annoying deal. Cheers anyway. So look, what I'm saying is I can understand the mode of sometimes you just need something sweet and nothing nothing.

50:37 When I'm going to vomit, like I'm feeling mad, I'm like, oh, I don't all settle my stomach, cherry ripen some ice cream and then some coke. Wash it down with a couple of bottles of. Cake. Oh no. God, no. I just love that they've put that out there. That's what The roommate I had to say about his bikie mate, Yeah. What else could you say? Really. Oh God, yeah. So it. Wasn't an outstanding bloke, you know that you if you've got nothing else nice to say, this is it, I. Mean so again, so we've got this guy who he's been identified by witness all that sort of stuff like potentially you could go to court and you could arrest him for that.

51:09 He's dead unfortunately, so we can't go any further with him. The next one on the list was the man who would organize the car. So as you said that that Holden Commodore that was in the the driveway etcetera had been collected earlier. That was well, it was organized. It wasn't just a pinched a car drove around the street. It was organized by someone who knew what they were doing. And this guy was named as James Ann Reynolds. So name is also known as Jamie I believe. Yeah, Jamie Reynolds. Yep. So Reynolds was he.

51:43 He was the one who obviously. He was the getaway driver. He was the no, no, he wasn't the getaway driver. No. So he was actually the guy who, well, somewhat getaway driver. So he actually, he organised the cars. And so there was a getaway driver separate to this guy in the car at the bottom of the driveway who drove off with Morty. Jamie met them where they burnt the car out. Yeah, with a with a second car. Yeah. So that makes we've got three people who are being named here. Well, one not being named, but 2 being named and the third involved where so he's collected them from the burn burnt out car to take them elsewhere again.

52:20 But so that was his role in this apparently, allegedly. So Ron was very keen to speak to this Jamie. He was still around at this point, obviously wanting to speak, to speak to him and get a bit more information. Unfortunately, Ron went to go and get resources to be able to like look into this guy more. They needed to know what who he was and what was going on with him to be and then approach, just sort of just walk up at the guy's doorstep. You don't need to have a bit of a team around you to go, right?

52:46 Who is he? What is he doing? What, are we going to talk to him? And some information to kind of add weight to what you're to what you're then going to accuse. Absolutely. So there's a bit more to it than just knocking on a door. But unfortunately Ron was declined any resources because the Piranha Task Force, which I think as we've said, we will go into the underbelly world of Melbourne in a series I think. But the Piranha Task force of what was looking at taking down the underbelly world in Melbourne, very well known in Melbourne in terms of that.

53:14 So we unfortunately there was no resources available to him because they were all being used on this Piranha Task Force. Now what? How do you feel about that? Yeah, I'm really disappointed in that because I feel like that we should, I know, I understand that it becomes a resource issue in terms of money as well. And like caught enough cops. And at that time we needed lots of cops because there was a lot going on in Melbourne in that situation that surely some, someone could have been found to be given to Ron to follow this up.

53:41 I think so. I think, you know, the gangland war was being fought amongst gangsters. Yeah, I know there were certain situations where there was collateral damage of innocent civilians, but on the whole they were just murdering each other. Yeah, which you know. Which, fuck, whatever. Well, no, to be fair, whatever. Because you deal. You. You. Deal in that. That's it. That's what's going to happen to you potentially, but then not to throw resources into the investigation of a a brutal murder in front of her children of an innocent woman.

54:15 I think that's disgusting. Why are we allocating resources away? I understand we needed resources to investigate and and curb the gangland wars that were happening in Melbourne and and it was intense. You know, this is in our living memory. We remember what it was like. But that's not to say that resources then shouldn't also be put into investigating murders of innocent people. I I I the fact that that was the reason you I. Guess the take infuriates me. This has been this many years, what's another few months?

54:49 Gonna what? Gonna change. But they actually they were so. Wrong in that, but that's. That pisses me off even more because they had intelligence. They they knew what they were looking for. It's not like they were investigating a completely cold case that they had no new leads on. They had leads, they had people, they knew names, they knew what they wanted to find out. It wasn't like they probably only needed a few months worth of surveillance, or maybe not even that. I don't know. It's so it's so.

55:16 Frustrating. And then to add to that frustration, seven months later, he finally gets the resources he needs to go and chase this up. And what happened? And dies. He died so. Round in a boating accident. Yeah, because he's a fuck wit out near Queens Cliff. Yeah. Bat, bow and heads. Yeah. So apparently Ron had gone to John and Helen McGill, Jane's parents the a few weeks before and said, oh, finally we've got the resources. We're able to, you know, we're able to investigate him. I'm on leave for the next couple of weeks.

55:47 As soon as I get back. That is my number one thing. We're on it. I'm going to get him. Yeah, Ron goes on his leave, which he's well and truly entitled to. I'm not even saying that to anything. He comes back and finds out that within that two weeks he died. Yeah. Oh God. Like in a boating accident. Yeah, just complete. Just drown. I'm just being a Dick. He went out in this tiny little boat. In a tin in these. Really like big seas, Yeah, I mean, that bow and heads is pretty rough. Yeah, yeah, he'd gone out through the heads like in a little tinny.

56:15 Tinny, like, I mean, no one else would have done what he did. Like, literally. And yeah, drowned, yeah. So that leaves us with the getaway driver. So we've we have got a clear description of who he is of like, look what he looks like. His name has not been released. I do believe the name has actually, I know the name has been given to police. So by this way of this information that came to them. So he's the one that's still remaining. They just can't get him. So they believe that the suspect is a Geelong bikie.

56:50 So this was where the connection comes back to Tuppence. No, sorry. Not Tuppence. Sorry. No. Comes back to the Morty. The No. Peter Phillips. Phillips. Right. Peters. Sorry. Yeah. Mr. Laundry. Mr. Laundry. Mr. Laundry in Prison met up with a very highly ranked Geelong bikie, so we believe that this is how he's organized. I. See OK, so bring it back again a little. Also, this is I love this comment too. So the Jalong Baki who they said he's now nearing probably retirement age. However, with his lifestyle that he has, he doesn't work.

57:27 They've named him the human slug. Just what a great. I mean, you get a really good mentality. Question of who? This guy is so clearly he. Yeah, yeah. So there's him and obviously Philip Peters is still alive and and this getaway driver, Yes. And they are still on the cops radar and still looking into them. They just haven't got any further with it, which is really frustrating. But that's unfortunately where we sit in terms of where things are at gone and where we're at. Just I do, I did write down a quote which I'll go for.

58:05 I love it, you know, it's just, it's could anything more Aussie have been said? So Jamie Reynolds, so the one who died in the the boating accident, a colleague of his who has then colleague. Sorry. Yep. Well, what are they associate? An associate of his has has come forward and told the cops that apparently he said we got the wrong Sheila. Oh whoops whoops whoops. See Sheila? Oh my God, for our non Australian listeners that means woman. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Oh man, God love them so yeah, because so this mistaken identity whole theory, yeah, which is just so beyond shit.

58:51 If you want to look into that further, Naked City the podcast John Sylvester I believe goes into a fair bit and I think even Andrew roll on his. Podcast has discussed it too. There are. Other mistaken identity cases, yes, that that it's not as uncommon as you'd like to think because as we said, unfortunately hitman, when you when you think of a hitman, you think of someone who's, you know, precise and, you know, sneaky and I don't and like really highly. Trained. Highly trained Something, No. That's not who they are, unfortunately, Yeah.

59:25 These are people who are willing to just take money to go murder someone. I mean, they're not like, you know, high society. That's. For sure. So there's quite a few unfortunately of mistaken identity and quite horrific ones that they go into on their podcasts. So worth a look into. We'll put. A link to Yeah, to those episodes specifically, because I know Andrew Rule's podcast isn't named anything along the lines of Jane Thurgood dub. I can't remember what the title of the podcast is, but yes, we will put a link to that this specific episode because it's really worth a listen.

59:56 And I just love Andrew Rule and I love John Sylvester. They're awesome. Yeah, they're really good and their journalism's really fun, their writing as well as their. Podcast, it's great. They're really awesome. Man, they're all over it. Another really sort of, I guess another thing to come out of this and, and was informed by Jane's case and by a lot of other cold cases was in 2021, a cold case homicide hub was set up. This is an online platform in Australia and they put the police, it's run by the police, they put cold cases in the hopes that anyone can access it.

1:00:32 You can just go online and search Cold Case Homicide Hub I. Believe they like feature like 5A. Month, I think something like that, maybe 2 a week or something like that. Yeah. But you can go in there and read case notes and information. There's photos of the people who are the victims and there are so many in there now. But you know, if you've got any information, you know, they say to call Crime Stoppers or you can submit anonymously through online through the hub. Yeah. Just worth worth. If you know something you know, even if you think it's so pointless, it may end up being that key bit of information that links something else together.

1:01:11 We don't know what we. Don't know what you don't know? That's. It, yeah. So it's worth just saying it and putting it out there and make it and then that way you know, you can feel better that you have you've said it, but also that they can do with it what needs to happen. And whether that be that's not relevant or 100% is, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, totally, absolutely. I'm sure that wherever you're listing would have similar services, but here in Victoria obviously it's Crime Stoppers that you need to contact or via that hub.

1:01:35 Yeah, that's it. Yeah, Unfortunately, Jane's parents, you know, they're still out in the media. As I said, when when this. Cold case now I mean well and. Sure, definitely when this cold case homicide hub was originally established, they were interviewed by the media. They, they appeared on behalf of the police and we're saying, you know how important it is for information to come to light. And then they are, they're really elderly now I. Think he was He was 83 at the time. So, you know, Jane's mom says in there that she doesn't want to go to her grave not knowing what happened to Jane and not having anyone found responsible for her death.

1:02:17 And I think that's, you know, that's completely reasonable. Absolutely. Losing a child, I can't even imagine. And to think of kids, kids who are now adults. Yeah, I mean that we're all in there well into their 30s, I guess now. Yeah, late 20s, early 30s. And her husband, who's, you know, had to deal with the fallout of all of this and losing his absolutely beautiful wife especially. With that shadow, I guess of like, was there a fair? Was it wasn't there? Like maybe he knew more, I don't know, but.

1:02:47 I'm with you. I'm with you on that, though. I really, I think it was very much one sided. I I don't, we don't know. Nobody knows what happens behind closed doors. But I I think you're right. I think we're we're on the same page with that. Yeah, yeah. All right. Well, I think that sort of leads us to the end of brings us to the end of another, another week, another episode next week. We're kind of changing the tune a little bit. We're going to be talking about the Ashley Madison scandal. Scandal saga.

1:03:17 Yeah, that's. Fascinating. And there's a lot of facets to this one. Yeah, so much actually. Actually, this could be a big week of research. I think it will be myself. Yeah. What have we done to us? I don't. Know what have we done to? Us now just really quickly, I wanted to also mention our last episode of this year. We are putting it out there to our listeners to vote on what they would like. So if there's a if there is a an episode you would like us or a case that you would like us to cover DMS on Instagram, contact us through our e-mail, which is 2 [email protected].

1:03:53 We I've had a few suggestions. Has anyone approached you or I? I've had a couple come through online and then I had a colleague of mine at work suggest a case as. Well, a couple of suggestions of sort of, yeah, friends around the trap of cool listening. OK, So yeah, but no, I'd, we'd love to get some more, throw them out there, yeah. And the most popular one will win. That's the case we'll cover for our last episode of 2024. For sure. That's oh God, that'll be interesting. What's what do we? Oh.

1:04:19 What's everyone into? Yeah. All right. Drop us a line everyone for. Sure, and don't forget to, if you would like to, you can buy us a coffee at Buy Me a Coffee forwardslash.com/two Crime Besties. I'll get it right. I'll put it in the show notes anyway. So click down there if you want to buy a coffee. Thank you and jump on the socials and chat. Cheers. Thanks everybody. See you next time. Stay curious, crime besties. Bye.