REPLAY Episode 24 - Jane Thurgood-Dove

0:16 Welcome back to Crime Besties. We're here for another episode,

0:19 up to episode 24 this week. Hi Emma, how you going?

0:22 I'm great Meg, we hit a bit of a milestone this week and I'm a

0:26 bit excited you shared it on our socials.

0:29 We hit 10,000 listens across all of our episodes so far.

0:33 So in less than a week after that, we're at 10 1/2 thousand,

0:36 yeah. Yeah, we're, we're gearing up

0:38 for almost 11,000 now. So thank you to everybody for

0:41 listening and we love the fact that it's like gaining traction

0:44 and we, you know, we're getting more and more amazing feedback.

0:47 We had some really nice feedback this week from a listener who we

0:53 don't neither of us know. I think we mentioned somebody

0:55 last week who we don't know and you know, this person's been

0:58 leaving some really lovely comments and and liking a lot of

1:02 our posts. So thank you very much to

1:04 Sweetheart Nail Studio. That's her handle.

1:07 I could do with a good nail studio too.

1:08 Where are you? Yeah, actually, yeah.

1:10 Let us know. But anyone who wants to follow,

1:13 I had a quick look at her Instagram and it looks gorgeous.

1:15 So I hope she's local. So thanks so much for listening

1:21 and and to everybody who who is listening, we really, really

1:24 appreciate it. So thank you.

1:27 Yes, for sure. How has your week been

1:29 otherwise? Yeah, it's been a week.

1:33 I'm Yep, surviving this week. We'll put it that way.

1:36 Yeah. Yeah.

1:37 How about you? Because you've had a week.

1:39 We've had a bit of a week. I think I mentioned in one of

1:41 our episodes a few weeks ago that my son injured himself and

1:45 needed some stitches. And unfortunately, just due to

1:49 the nature of of where he, he had the cut and oh, anyway, it's

1:55 split open again and he ended up you.

1:57 Messaged me on Monday like I just was like no like.

2:00 This is crazy. It needed to be surgically

2:03 revised yesterday. So anyway, look, we're on the

2:06 right path now, but he's in a brace.

2:09 He's. So he's 10 years old.

2:10 He's probably one of the most active people I know.

2:14 And he's in a brace from fire to calf because he can't bend his

2:17 knee for at least two weeks. So good luck to us.

2:20 Yeah, I was. Gonna say it's more good luck

2:21 to. You.

2:22 Yeah. Godspeed.

2:25 I know I was racking my brain, like after I'd spoken to him,

2:27 this is what was kind of happening.

2:28 I'm like, what can we do? What what can we like?

2:31 Yeah, give him to like entertain him like, no Google searching

2:35 things like, like, Oh my God. Because you're gonna go a bit

2:39 crazy. I.

2:39 Think, look, we're lucky he loves a video game and he's got

2:43 a few shows that he wants to watch in a movie or two.

2:46 So oh, that'll get there. Yeah, but then it's kind of like

2:49 don't ruin all the Christmas holidays.

2:51 That's. Right.

2:52 Well, hopefully Christmas holidays we can be more active

2:54 and do this is. It by then.

2:56 The hippies will be fine you. Won't wanna go to the movies or

2:58 won't wanna go to like, yeah, yeah, that's it, That's it.

3:00 Although you do have to work on certain days I guess and I

3:03 think. That's true.

3:04 That's true. We'll just shout out and I'll

3:06 come and grab him. Thanks.

3:07 I'm not taking him to a basketball court.

3:09 Can we just rule that one? Out.

3:10 Yeah, Fair call. Yeah, The last time that that

3:12 actually was on the last day of work last year.

3:15 Yeah, Meg and I'd thought we'd we'd get the boys together for a

3:19 bit of a pre Christmas catch up. Yeah.

3:22 And Ollie broke his arm really badly so.

3:24 It was more seconds of getting to the park.

3:26 Yeah, Oh my God, and that needed surgery as well.

3:29 It's just odd. He's it's I mean, look, active

3:33 kids, these things happen. It's.

3:34 Why his nickname is what it is? Yep, All of a sudden.

3:37 All of a sudden, yeah. I love that.

3:39 Yeah, it's so good. Suds for short.

3:43 Oh, it suits him to a team. It certainly does.

3:45 He is who he is and we love him for it.

3:48 Yeah, so that's that'll be our weekend.

3:50 He's just He's home from school today and resting up but.

3:54 So if you hear some noise in the background, it's just him, I

3:56 don't know, killing someone on Fortnite?

3:57 Yeah, exactly. Well, a couple of his mates are

4:00 home from school today. I just had a message from one of

4:02 the mums to say that they're on online together so at least he's

4:05 being entertained. Oh gosh, there's a few bugs

4:08 going around. So yeah, I'm sure there are a

4:09 few kids at home. Yeah.

4:10 Oh, that's so funny. I knew, I knew he wouldn't

4:13 interrupt us as long as I gave him Fortnite and some snacks,

4:16 food, yeah, he'll be absolutely fine.

4:21 I know I went out there before. I love it though.

4:22 I said to you know how you're feeling.

4:24 He goes. I'm all right, but I'm bit busy

4:26 on my game. Like, yeah, thank you for

4:29 asking, Birds. Please don't interrupt any

4:31 further. Oh God, he's so cute.

4:35 Gorgeous. Oh gosh.

4:36 So let's get into today's episode.

4:39 I guess we interesting one. It is an interesting one.

4:41 There's not a lot of information out there, but we are talking

4:44 today about the case of Jane Thurgood Dove.

4:48 Jane was born on the 17th of March in 1963 and she met her

4:53 husband, Mark Thurgood Dove, when they were at school.

4:56 So they were like, you know, high school sweethearts and they

5:00 had three children at the time of at the time of this incident.

5:05 Mum speak about them as a couple and a family.

5:07 It was just beautiful. I had, I sort of had a bit of a

5:11 tear in my eye, like, you know, yeah, the way she sort of spoke

5:13 about, you know, the fact that they were like the perfect

5:15 family, which is just lovely. They were.

5:17 They were meant to be together. Yeah, and a lot of love in the

5:20 home. You know, they were a really,

5:22 you know what, what you would want a suburban family to be.

5:26 Yeah. Mum, dad and three kids.

5:27 Yeah. At the time of the incident,

5:30 their eldest son Scott was 11 years old, Ashley daughter was

5:35 six years old and their youngest daughter, Holly, was three years

5:37 old. Yeah, Jane's parents were very

5:42 involved in their family life and it sounds like they were

5:45 incredible, an incredibly close and tight knit sort of extended

5:49 family. Her parents were John and Helen

5:53 McGill. We'll be talking about them a

5:56 lot as the episode goes through because they are pivotal in in

6:01 terms of the way this case played out.

6:03 They're just amazing people. Strong people.

6:08 Really strong people to this day.

6:10 Like there's, there's stuff out there from, you know, as

6:13 recently as 2021 where they're still in the media advocating

6:17 for certain things. Again, we'll get to that as the

6:19 time goes on. On the 6th of November in 1997.

6:24 Two days. Ago like we're so like.

6:26 Yeah, well, yesterday for us, as in like yesterday was Oaks Day.

6:29 We're recording the day after Oaks Day today.

6:31 So this happened on Oaks Day, which happened to be the 6th of

6:35 November in 1997. Jane had picked up the three

6:39 kids, so obviously it's still a school day.

6:41 She picked up the two eldest from school and the youngest

6:43 from daycare I believe, or preschool.

6:47 I think so, yeah. From what I can gather, either

6:49 that or she was at home with her.

6:51 She was doing home duties kind of stuff.

6:53 The day. Yeah, doing that, all those

6:55 sorts of things, 'cause they got to the school pickup and I know

6:58 she had a chat with one of the school mums and there was

7:01 actually a conversation around, hey, come over and bring the

7:03 kids, have a cup of coffee after school pickup.

7:07 To which she'd responded. I've literally got a load of

7:09 washing on at home, so I'm gonna go.

7:11 I need to go home and put that out, you know?

7:13 So we'll give it a miss today. Yeah, yeah.

7:16 So she's picked the kids up from school and headed straight home

7:19 instead. I just wonder whether had that

7:21 friend gone, whether things would have ended differently.

7:25 I don't know. Because given, given the nature

7:27 of what happened next, yes, I would imagine they were gonna do

7:30 what they were gonna do regardless of who was there.

7:32 Yeah. Exactly.

7:33 So Jane has pulled into the driveway of her home in Muriel

7:37 St. Nidri IN Melbourne.

7:40 So it's in a northern suburb of Melbourne near Essendon, is

7:43 probably the most prominent, yeah.

7:45 Suburb out of out of the city, I think, yeah.

7:48 It's not far. Yeah, as she's pulled into the

7:51 driveway, a blue, a metallic blue Holden Commodore, late

7:56 model Holden Commodore has pulled up behind her and

7:58 basically blocked her into her driveway.

8:01 Yeah, and a pot bellied man gets out of the car with a gun.

8:06 He chases her around the car twice.

8:08 So at this stage, the three kids are still strapped into the

8:10 back. She's literally just pulled into

8:12 the driveway. Elders.

8:13 Was in the front seat and her two younger ones in the back,

8:15 but they remained in the car. Yeah.

8:17 And strapped into that, the at least the two in the back was

8:20 still in car seats. So they were still, you know,

8:22 still strapped in. Yeah, this man shot her twice.

8:28 So she he's chased her around the car twice.

8:30 She's then tripped and fallen as she's trying to get away and he

8:34 shot her at point blank range twice.

8:37 Yep, right in the back of the head.

8:38 Yep. He run down the driveway to the

8:43 car that was parked at the bottom and jumped straight into

8:45 the passenger seat where there was a scrawny looking guy with

8:50 sort of longish hair, graying dark hair.

8:53 And he has floored it. And they've driven off down

8:56 Mural Street, by the way, end of Muriel Street.

8:59 Do you know what the name of the road is?

9:00 What? Hoffman Rd.

9:02 Spelt incorrectly. Of course it is.

9:05 I didn't see that. And then I was looking at him.

9:07 I was like, oh, that's funny. Oh, that is funny.

9:08 That's interesting. That's my surname for those

9:10 people. Yeah, they've jumped straight in

9:13 the car. So he's, there's obviously a

9:14 driver and this guy who's committed the the actual act

9:18 lips straight in the car, driven off quite speedily down the road

9:20 and taken off. Yeah.

9:22 So there's a couple of witnesses to this whole event, except

9:24 neighbors, obviously they've heard gunshots.

9:26 Whatever have seen been out in the neighborhood has seen, have

9:29 seen the incident as well as obviously, unfortunately her

9:32 three children who were in the car and have witnessed this as

9:34 well. Yeah.

9:35 So in terms of those witnesses, what did you find out about

9:39 them? Not a lot, did you?

9:40 Find anything I. Couldn't the only so I only

9:42 found something about one of the witnesses.

9:44 I know he was a male. He was walking just walking in

9:47 the street at the time. He was standing on the other

9:49 side of the road, but he saw enough that he was actually able

9:53 to eventually successfully identify the purse.

9:57 The gunman, yes. So the gunman was not like

10:03 disguised in any way, I think did did he have anything

10:07 covering his face? I don't think he.

10:09 Did. No, no.

10:10 So Bella Club, that comes up into things later, Yeah, I

10:12 don't. Believe he was wearing it at the

10:14 time, but. The the best description that

10:16 came from the witness of of those people on the street, but

10:19 also then also her oldest son is this Potbelly was the most

10:23 definitive, like sort of that he was short and pot bellied.

10:27 Yeah, like sort of beer belly, kind of.

10:29 Yeah. So he's, you know, obviously the

10:34 witnesses, they've gone to try and assist in any way.

10:37 But I mean, she was shot at point blank range.

10:39 There was no assisting her. She she had had died in that, in

10:43 that, in that instance. Yeah, the police obviously

10:46 attend the scene and the homicide squad is called in.

10:49 Yes, they pretty was heading up the homicide squad.

10:52 Well, I don't think he was on that first day.

10:53 He was. Was he on the first day?

10:55 He got the phone call just after 4:00 PM to head out to the to

11:00 the scene. Yep.

11:01 So we're talking about none other than Ron Idols.

11:04 We have mentioned before on this show and in Melbourne.

11:07 He is like well known to Melbourne around he's he headed

11:11 up the homicide squad for 20 years or something.

11:14 Yeah, yeah. So he's amazing.

11:16 He's just incredibly beautiful, man.

11:18 We've seen him speak live and he's just great.

11:22 But he's got his own podcasts and he's got his own TV series

11:26 called The Good Cop where he talks about cases.

11:28 So he's got like a 99% success rate from all the homicides that

11:32 he's looked into over his years of experience.

11:35 So this was his. So yeah, he got the phone call

11:37 come in just after 4:00 PM to head out to Muriel Street.

11:41 And from all the information he got at that point was that it

11:44 was a drive by shooting and that to go and check this woman has

11:48 been shot. So when he's arrived on the

11:50 scene, he's basically said that he as he walked in, he saw, you

11:54 know, this beautiful woman in a, you know, youngish 34 year old

11:58 woman with three children's been brutally murdered.

12:01 And the three kids at that stage, the police had already

12:03 removed them from the scene and taken them down to a milk bar

12:07 down the road. So he after assessing the scene

12:10 and directing people as to where he wanted them to because he was

12:12 obviously the head of the of this scene at that point, he's

12:16 then wandered down to the milk bar to go and have a chat with

12:18 the kids. So, and I'm sorry, but if any

12:22 detective was going to interview my children at a point of that,

12:24 I would have Ron Iddles any day of the week.

12:26 He would or Narelle Fraser. Utterly beautiful.

12:28 Yes, Absolutely. Yeah.

12:30 So I'm certain that the only reason he got as much

12:33 information as he did at that time is because he is so

12:36 incredibly beautiful. So he spoke to young Scott, who

12:39 was like 10 1/2, eleven. At the time, 11, yeah.

12:43 Yeah, so he spoke to him about things.

12:44 I mean, can you only imagine that poor kid at that in that

12:47 point? And he was able to describe the

12:50 man. But he's actually Ron's first

12:52 question to him, what was going through his head was, as we all

12:55 do, a mum, a woman killed. Who do you first immediately

12:59 think Dad. Dad the husband.

13:01 Yeah. What's the issue here?

13:02 Where's Dad? What's the idea?

13:04 So he was expecting to find out that they were separated, if

13:07 not, you know, for a long time recently, something, something

13:10 tumultuous. So his first question to Scott

13:13 is where's Dad, mate? Expecting to hear.

13:15 Oh, you know, you know, that he dad had been the one who was

13:19 there or, you know, or something along the lines.

13:22 And he said dad's dad went for work to work this morning, you

13:25 know, so he's like immediately, OK, not separated.

13:28 This is different. So it immediately sparked for

13:31 him that this was something very unusual.

13:34 I think I've heard Ron mentioned the fact that, you know, this is

13:38 where you start, of course, because 8 out of 10 murders in

13:42 your home are committed by your significant other.

13:45 We've spoken about the statistics.

13:46 Yeah. So we've spoken about this in,

13:49 we've spoken about this in previous episodes as well.

13:51 And if it's not your intimate partner, then I think it's like

13:54 9 times out of 10, the person is known to you in some way, same

13:59 way. So the police have actually gone

14:01 to Marks place of work. He worked at a factory in

14:05 Broadmeadows. And they wanted to see what his

14:08 reaction was like when they told him, yeah, that his wife had

14:12 been murdered. And apparently, according to

14:15 Ron, the reaction was absolutely that, yeah, of a distressed and

14:21 distraught human being who had no idea.

14:24 So obviously they needed to corroborate his alibi and all of

14:28 that sort of stuff. Some people are.

14:29 Very good at, you know, acting so you can't rule it out, but

14:32 not at all. But from everyone's point of

14:35 view at that point was like, well, this isn't a a clean cut.

14:38 Yeah, that's for damn sure. That's it, yeah.

14:40 At the same time, they've sent another detective, a different

14:43 detective around to John and Helen Mcgill's house.

14:47 And their retelling of this breaks my heart.

14:51 So the detective knocks on their door.

14:54 It's about 5:50 PM on on the day of the murder, so on Oaks Day.

14:59 And it sounds like they were sort of fairly interested in

15:01 horse racing because they'd actually been watching the races

15:04 on the TV. Yeah.

15:05 And decided to have a bit of an early dinner.

15:07 The they described the evening as a lovely warm evening.

15:10 And, you know, they're getting getting dinner already and

15:14 they're sitting down and having their dinner and there's a knock

15:16 on the door. They go and answer the door and

15:19 the detective who presents says to them, are you, is Jane your

15:26 daughter? They say yes.

15:29 And let me just get, I'm sorry. Let me just get the exact quote

15:35 because it it's absolutely horrible.

15:39 Oh, sorry. The the detective says you have

15:41 a daughter, Jane. They say yes.

15:43 And this detective says she's been shot and she is now dead.

15:49 Who was that that sent? Which I don't know.

15:51 They've never named that detective.

15:53 Well, it wasn't Ron, I'll put. Give it it wasn't Ron.

15:55 It absolutely they know they've said it wasn't Ron because

15:58 they've then since had a lot of dealings with Ron.

16:00 Yes, but when I like I've heard the mum actually interviewed and

16:06 she said this quote, I'm like what the fuck?

16:09 Who says who says that? And this was at their door,

16:12 apparently. Oh, yeah.

16:17 How would you even react to that?

16:18 No, you'd. Be like what are you talking?

16:21 About yeah, and, and this detectives also said something

16:24 along the lines of well, we're gonna need to eliminate you

16:26 because you're a suspect, which they say now of course we had to

16:30 be eliminated, we totally understand that, but.

16:33 It's like there was like blunt about, I mean, yeah, that

16:36 conversation happens while she come in and have a cup of tea,

16:38 like and like. Or I mean, look, I understand.

16:41 I understand having to be direct, because you can't.

16:46 There's no, there's no skirting around the truth.

16:49 Your daughter has been murdered. That needs to be stated.

16:52 Absolutely don't go. She's been shot and now she's

16:56 dead. No, but like you say, can we

16:58 talk? Unfortunately, we've got some

16:59 bad news. Yeah, like you.

17:02 You OK. And look, yeah, I do understand

17:07 the whole idea, you know, and I think from what I, because what

17:09 I read about it, like I read it obviously not to that detail.

17:13 And when I read that she was talking about the fact that

17:16 they'd been told you'll need to be eliminated as as as suspects,

17:20 the way I sort of read it was like, you know, yeah.

17:22 And she was very accepting of that.

17:24 They were. Yeah.

17:24 But I thought I didn't realize it was that blunt of a

17:26 conversation though of the way that came out.

17:28 Like, yeah, I understood it with the point of like, I'm glad

17:31 they've been open with them and saying like, obviously in this

17:33 situation to make sure that we are covering all bases to find

17:37 the right person, you immediately as family, et

17:40 cetera, have to be included in that of people that we look at

17:43 like absolutely. Yep.

17:45 Good. Do your job, you know, please

17:46 clear me and do because I know I can be, you know, like that's

17:49 that's it. Please do your job.

17:50 Yeah, because this I want the person founders.

17:52 Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

17:53 But wow, that's so blunt. Anyway, in the end, her parents

17:58 and her husband Mark, were eliminated as suspects.

18:02 Like, they were absolutely, categorically they had no

18:04 involvement in her murder. Yeah.

18:06 So now the police are sort of at a point where they're like, OK,

18:09 next sort of circle out. Let's figure out what we can.

18:12 Define they still had mark on their radar as potential.

18:15 Nothing was glaringly obviously that could be, could be.

18:18 Him, but he could have organized something.

18:20 You just don't know. Yeah.

18:21 Well, that's sort of looking at it like that.

18:22 So basically Mark was still not ruled out, but definitely her

18:24 parents and that sort of yeah. So they started looking at to

18:28 see who else could be there. Yeah.

18:30 And I've, I've read a few different scenarios as to how

18:34 they move to their next suspect on their list.

18:37 So I'd be I'm intrigued to hear what you have you only heard one

18:40 or have you heard multiple ways in which?

18:41 This is 1. So what I found was that they

18:44 actually found they were going through James a handbag.

18:47 Yes. And at the bottom of her

18:48 handbag, there was a phone number scribbled on a piece of

18:51 paper. OK, so yeah, Ron tells slightly

18:54 different. OK, He says that it was a in her

18:57 handbag, but it was a card, like a business card.

19:01 Like so a business card for the. Yeah, police.

19:04 Yeah, Yeah. OK.

19:05 But I've also heard that it was an anonymous tip.

19:10 Oh, yeah. Oh, I haven't heard that one.

19:12 Yeah. Do we know anything?

19:14 More about that. The other one I've heard is that

19:17 her dad was a butcher. Yep.

19:19 And he worked at like the Mooney Ponds market and had his

19:23 butchery there and that obviously then Jane would be

19:28 around that a fair bit, spent time down there around the

19:31 markets. And this particular person also

19:33 spent time at the markets and went to that butcher's and they

19:36 met each other there. Yes.

19:37 So I I think that's how they met, right?

19:40 Yeah. So I'm pretty sure the way this

19:42 police officer and Jane met is because the police officer would

19:46 organise the fortnightly BBQ at the police station on a Friday

19:49 night, right? And would buy their sausages and

19:52 meat from Jane's dad. Because I've I've jumped ahead

19:55 of myself. Sorry.

19:56 My yeah, you have a bit, but that's.

19:57 OK, I've heard another way of how they met too.

20:01 Oh, right, yeah. Anyway, well, this is this is

20:03 what I've heard yeah, that that they met and as a as a

20:07 consequence of being such a good customer of John Jane's dad,

20:13 yes. And being around so frequently,

20:17 they've met they've developed a bit of a friendship outside of

20:20 the butchery slash police and we're known acquaintances,

20:24 probably not friends. And then they've introduced at

20:28 some point, Jane's been introduced to this police

20:30 officer in that, in that sort of social circle.

20:34 Right, because what Ron tells it as is that she was his.

20:39 House cleaner. He she was.

20:40 That's how they met those. That is true too.

20:43 So they they met in this way, and Jane was just looking for a

20:46 little bit of extra money. Yeah, she wasn't working in any

20:51 official capacity at the time. She had young kids, and we all

20:55 know what the juggle is like. You need flexibility in whatever

20:57 role you've got when you've got young children.

20:59 So she was doing little odd jobs like that.

21:02 And he was looking for a cleaner.

21:04 He was a single man, yeah, working probably pretty crazy

21:07 hours and stuff, and decided that he wanted to clean up.

21:11 And so it was through John's. So John, Jane's dad, yes, that

21:16 they sort of made this connection and that's how that

21:18 came. About OK, so both are true like

21:20 because I was reading. Both are true, yeah.

21:23 How does that all feel? Love it.

21:25 OK great. I was hoping that would be the

21:26 case to be honest, because then it all comes together.

21:29 It really does. So, Jane.

21:31 So whether it's on a scrap piece of paper or there's this police

21:35 card, they've called him. They've called this police

21:37 officer. Yeah, we can't name this guy

21:40 because nobody knows his name. It's never been released into

21:43 the media at all. So we will call him the police

21:48 officer. There's no other way in which we

21:49 can describe him. But they've contacted him and

21:53 when they've gone to his house to sort of figure out what the

21:58 go was, they've found some really interesting things.

22:03 They firstly looked at him and he fit the description of the

22:08 shorter. Belly man?

22:10 Yeah. That was first, uh oh, yeah.

22:13 But yeah. And then they walked in.

22:15 They walked in and what do they see?

22:17 They see a shrine to Jane. He was obsessed by her.

22:22 He. Obsessed.

22:23 Oddly obsessed, They've confiscated his or had a look at

22:26 his. I don't know that they took his

22:28 laptop away, but they've tried. To access, Ron tried to access

22:31 his computer and he went, I can't get on it like can you?

22:35 Can we have a look on your computer?

22:36 And he goes, oh, it's the password's Jane's birthday.

22:40 Yeah. 170363. So that was another red flag.

22:47 Massive red flag. Yep.

22:50 And then subsequently, yeah, he also purchased or tried to I.

22:55 Know he actually did, but he definitely changed his will.

22:58 He changed his will. Yeah, he did.

23:00 He also tried to later on. So as this investigation

23:05 progressed, yeah, he tried to buy a burial plot next to where

23:09 Jane was buried. Yeah.

23:12 Wow. Yep.

23:14 So wow. Wow, this is looking really bad.

23:17 For him it is especially because he also wasn't cooperating with

23:21 police. No.

23:22 Well, that that's kind of I can. And there's one sort of

23:24 description I've heard of that that I kind of go, all right, I

23:28 can understand now a little bit of why he was so uncooperative.

23:30 Did you listen to Andrew Rules podcast I think?

23:33 About it or it wasn't. Yeah, because Oh well, they're

23:36 almost one and they're saying they're both awesome.

23:39 Yeah, great journalists, great and great podcasters, Yeah.

23:42 Yeah. So because he was a police

23:45 officer, he obviously contacted his union.

23:48 So and the police union have very good lawyers attached to

23:51 them. So I mean, as we would say to

23:53 anyone who's being looked out for a look for anything, whether

23:55 you're innocent or guilty, lawyer up.

23:58 Like you don't want to be caught in a trap of anything like with

24:00 police. So you lawyer up.

24:02 So that's what the union have basically done with this guy and

24:05 they have instructed him to not comment.

24:07 Yeah, but in in not commenting though he's obstructed yes

24:12 things and and he's not taking favour.

24:15 It certainly hasn't. And Ron had a little bit of a

24:18 chat with him about that later on.

24:19 Yeah, yeah. So we'll get to there.

24:21 We will get to that, actually, yeah, we'll talk about that a

24:23 little. Bit later, but basically at this

24:25 point he's looking like someone who is potentially could he have

24:29 put, could there be a rejection here from Jane and that's

24:33 basically triggered him to murder her?

24:36 Yep. So it's looking pretty dodgy for

24:39 him. Things are not looking great.

24:41 I mean, he's, as you said, physically meets the

24:44 description. He's got a shrine to her in his

24:46 house. Her birth date is his computer

24:49 password. A lot of things are adding up

24:54 here. Did you find anything out about

24:58 whether they actually had a relationship or not?

25:01 This no and I you can't confirm it.

25:03 He says yes, but is that very once it's very one sided, you're

25:07 only getting his side of that. If he had this like weird

25:09 obsessive thing, maybe like things were conjured up in his

25:12 head. Although there was a one hour

25:14 phone call, one hour 15 minute phone call, which, and this was

25:17 like a less than a week before the murder.

25:20 Yeah. So they've checked obviously

25:21 when they raided his house sort of thing, they've found he's

25:23 gone in through his phone records.

25:25 Yeah. And so he said at the time that

25:27 he had a 15 minute phone call with her or one minute phone

25:29 call, sorry, on that particular date.

25:31 And then when they've gone and checked his phone records, it

25:34 turns out the phone call was not a minute.

25:35 It was an hour and 15 minutes, which to me, someone who if

25:39 you're like, I'm not interested in this guy, you're having an

25:42 hour and 15 minute phone. Call, no, you're not.

25:45 But she, from everything everyone has said about her, she

25:50 was a really caring, compassionate, really kind and

25:53 lovely woman. If she thought, I mean, she

25:56 obviously would have known he had this obsession with her.

26:00 Maybe she was just trying to be really nice and talk him down

26:03 and, you know, I don't know. And maybe that phone call was

26:06 there. Look, I'm not interested.

26:07 Phone call. Yeah, and I'm gonna let you down

26:09 gently and. We'll talk this through.

26:11 She was really maybe. I mean, as females we are taught

26:13 to be nice and we probably shouldn't sometimes.

26:17 We shouldn't, absolutely. So yeah, I I can when you put it

26:21 into that sort of context, yeah, maybe.

26:23 And that's maybe why he didn't want people to know how long the

26:26 phone call was. Like, you know, maybe it was

26:27 like, you know, yeah, we've had a brief chat like cuz we're.

26:29 Cool. Yeah, we have these quick one

26:32 minute chats because we talk all the time, Yeah.

26:34 So basically at this point, we've got Mark's kind of on the

26:37 radar still. He's not ruled out, but he's

26:39 not. But there's nothing glaring

26:40 obvious with him. The police, the police.

26:43 Officer as well, just really quickly.

26:44 Sorry, you know, go. I mean, he also had no alibi for

26:48 the day. There was nobody.

26:49 He was not working that. Day and he lived on his own.

26:52 There was nobody to corroborate his whereabouts at all, so

26:56 another red flag. Lining up for him of like going

26:58 this is bad. So this this point Ron is

27:02 actually having a chat with as he does his underworld

27:05 connections, which we need to get into like some Melbourne

27:08 underworld stories down the track.

27:10 That'll be a series that will not be a single no no.

27:13 There's a lot in that that we can get into.

27:16 But yeah, there's a man within that underworld met by the name

27:19 of Des Moran, otherwise known as Tuppence.

27:23 Tuppence loving. OK, Sorry.

27:25 Anyway, Ron as he does, he has connections with these people.

27:28 He is, he's beautiful with everyone he speaks to.

27:32 He's not just caring and lovely to the people who are victims.

27:35 He builds these relationships with the people he needs to to

27:38 get information. Yep.

27:39 So he's and he's very respectful, very respectful.

27:42 The way he speaks about people is just generally very amazing.

27:46 So anyway, he's caught up for a chat with Tuppence and Tuppence

27:51 says to him I've got a bit of info for you and what he says is

27:55 that there was a pot bellied man who came into the cafe where he

28:00 would regularly mate hang. Yep, I could probably name it.

28:05 We won't. What do we mean in Carlton?

28:08 Are there so. You don't say.

28:10 Yeah, so there was this man came in and he paid someone else

28:15 $2000 to loan a gun. Now, so this guy does that

28:21 leaves. With this gun, no questions, no

28:23 questions asked. As you know, comes back though,

28:27 days later and to return the gun and the guy responds to this pot

28:32 bellied man. Oh, Nah, Nah, Nah, Nah.

28:34 I don't want to touch that gun. That's dirty.

28:37 You killed Jane Thurgood Dove. And the pot bellied man turns

28:43 back and goes, yeah, I did because her husband Mark told

28:47 me, paid me to do it. Did he though?

28:51 So yeah, so anyway, this is the information he's got from a

28:54 Philly. Well, what's the word for it?

28:59 Not a reputable source. Reputable source, but at the

29:02 same time certainly in the know. So he's had to take this

29:06 information as it is and go, well, this isn't helping Mark's

29:10 case. Let's we can't we can't rule him

29:13 out Still. He's there's now another bigger

29:16 question Mark over him than there was, but not enough to be

29:19 going and arresting anybody, obviously.

29:21 So this has caused a fair bit of confusion for Ron.

29:24 So at this point, being who he is, he has decided he wants to

29:27 use some very different technology to kind of help him

29:30 rule someone out. And he's gone into what at this

29:33 point in time in 1997, it wasn't widely used.

29:35 And it's certainly he's even as he said he goes, was never going

29:38 to use this in a court, but he decided to use a polygraph

29:42 machine. So he brought in Mark and he

29:45 brought in the police officer to sit down and do a polygraph.

29:49 And from the polygraphs they found that Mark passed the

29:52 shining colours. He completely passed.

29:55 He was very truthful in what he said he, but he had no

29:59 involvement in Jane's death. So he that really settled it for

30:02 Ron that he could eliminate him from it.

30:06 But the police officer did not pass the polygraph.

30:10 But again, can't be used in court and doesn't go to the

30:14 point of saying you can't you killed her.

30:17 So we can't charge him still. But it's definitely still a

30:20 massive question mark over the police officer.

30:23 The question that they posed to him during this polygraph was,

30:27 are you responsible for the death of Jane Thurgood Dove?

30:31 And he said no, but all of the physical indications showed that

30:36 he was being deceitful. Yeah.

30:39 So, OK, this adds more weight to the fact that this police

30:43 officer has had something to do with Jane's death in some way.

30:49 Let's leave that there for now. Yeah, I was.

30:50 Going to say, do you want to come back to?

30:52 It I think we come back to. That, yeah.

30:54 So basically right at this point in time, we're looking at mark

30:58 has been eliminated, but the police officer is still question

31:02 marks. This goes on and on and on.

31:04 And they're not finding any more information.

31:06 There's no more. Three years down the track, they

31:11 organize an undercover operation of which we have no knowledge

31:15 of. We it's, and that's rightfully

31:17 so. Those kind of operations are

31:19 very, they don't like to release what their tactics are and those

31:22 sorts of things because obviously then under undercover

31:24 operations won't work. Yeah.

31:25 They can't become public knowledge how they operate with

31:27 those things. Although I do have a friend

31:29 who's an undercover cop, but I can't name it.

31:36 Anyway, I heard a few things, but interesting, very

31:41 interesting work. So, yeah, anyway, undercover

31:44 operation happens. From whatever came of that

31:47 undercover operation, they were able to eliminate the police

31:50 officer. Ron sat down with that guy after

31:54 eliminating him and said to him, mate, you have wasted our time

31:59 because you have dodged questions, made yourself look

32:03 guilty. And his response to that was,

32:07 well, I wanted to protect Jane's name because I didn't want it

32:11 out there that she'd had an affair.

32:15 He also admitted at the time that when he was asked about

32:21 about that question during the polygraph about whether he he

32:24 was responsible for the death of Jane Thurgood Dove, and he said

32:27 no. The reason it came up as him

32:29 being deceitful is because at that time he thought that Mark

32:32 had found out that they were having an affair and Mark killed

32:35 her. So he's rageful and yeah, he

32:37 felt responsible in some way for her murder.

32:39 So. That's why it came up positive,

32:41 Yeah. Because he did feel responsible,

32:43 Yes, According to him. According to him.

32:45 But then So what I find really, I, I just think it's bizarre, if

32:49 you actually really cared for Jane and you really wanted an

32:52 outcome where they would find the person who's bloody well

32:55 murdered her, why be obstructionist?

32:59 Why not just put everything out on the table?

33:01 I understand in the initial instance that he's had that

33:05 legal advice from the police union and from a criminal lawyer

33:09 who was employed by the police union.

33:11 So that's fine. But surely at some point you

33:14 would be like, OK, I'm actually, I need an on the record

33:16 interview now to actually go through and state everything I

33:20 know. I mean, he knew he wasn't

33:22 responsible for her death. Why couldn't he just come out

33:25 there and say that? Yep, and put it on record.

33:29 And say what happened. Yeah, like.

33:33 And as you said. Ron Ryan I somewhat think

33:35 though, that's because I don't know that there was a

33:37 relationship there and I think he was by not saying anything

33:40 and alluding to things, it made him look like more like he was.

33:43 He was able to get Jane. I agree with that.

33:46 I agree with what you're saying. I just think he's why.

33:48 Is this man a police officer and is he still?

33:50 I think he is, which really? Yeah, Fuck.

33:53 I mean, I don't know if he is now like, you know, however many

33:56 years later. And things of people.

33:58 But I know he continued to be a police officer for many years

34:01 after this absolutely incident. Yep.

34:05 So basically, so now we're at a point of like, who's responsible

34:09 for this? Nothing.

34:10 What do we do three years down the track?

34:12 So time ticks on further. And this is where John Miguel

34:18 really comes into the forefront because he goes into bat for his

34:21 daughter, basically, and he actually asks of the government

34:25 to put up a $1 million reward to find out information about Jane.

34:29 Can I? This is quite.

34:29 Yeah. Do you want to go and explain

34:30 how that all? Yeah, I can, but we just need to

34:32 go back a little bit. So this actually happened, that

34:35 happened in 2001. So just previous to this though,

34:39 another SO Andrew Rule, who was a journalist, and John

34:44 Sylvester, they were working together at the time and they'd

34:48 heard a tip because again, a bit like Ron, they had connections

34:52 to underworld figures and to crooks and whatever.

34:55 And they decided because they were looking into the story and

35:00 what could have possibly happened, they were really

35:02 curious. So they actually decided to door

35:05 knock down near Drew St. and figure find out what was going.

35:07 On Yeah, but Ron tells a different story of how, like

35:09 legally I guess it came up. Yeah, yeah.

35:12 Well, this is it. I mean, the the journalist

35:15 reporting, they obviously have to be careful as well, but this

35:17 is this is what they say happened.

35:19 Yeah. They've knocked on the door of,

35:22 you know, several neighbors in in the street and it has come to

35:26 light that potentially there was somebody else in the street who

35:31 may have been a target, a potential target for this

35:35 gangland style killing. Yes.

35:38 So Muriel St. Yeah.

35:41 Jane, Jane and Mark's house was three houses from the corner.

35:47 They lived in a light coloured weatherboard house.

35:51 There was a street light out the front of their house.

35:54 Jane drove a four wheel drive, a blue Jane, a blue Toyota, a very

35:59 blue Land Cruiser. Jane had blonde hair and three

36:03 children, three young children and school.

36:05 Aged. Yep.

36:06 Yep. A woman by the name of Carmel

36:11 Kipri or Kipri you Kipriyano. Kipriyano.

36:14 That's it. But they they go by Kipri.

36:16 Yeah, also lived in Muriel St. Nidri.

36:23 She also had blonde hair. Three houses from a corner,

36:28 light post out the front. Drove a similar 4 wheel drive.

36:34 Had three children. Who was school aged?

36:37 Yep, Yep. OK, so there's.

36:39 Lots and lots of similarities. Similarities.

36:41 Yep. Two women.

36:42 Yep. Carmel's husband, Peter Kipri.

36:46 He's a really interesting character.

36:50 So Peter Kipri was involved in drugs in the underworld.

36:59 He had a very unlikable person. Yeah.

37:02 Not the nice, not the nicest person in in the room.

37:05 No, he pulled off some kind of $200,000 insurance fraud.

37:12 Yeah. With a With a man.

37:14 With a man by the name of Philip Peters also.

37:18 Known as. How could this?

37:20 Mr. Laundry because he could clean millions of underbelly

37:27 money. So this guy was an ex solicitor

37:30 by the way, and he's like somehow found himself into the

37:33 underworld. He's a lawyer.

37:34 He's a lawyer. At this stage, like, you know,

37:37 like while he's doing this, he's a lawyer, OK?

37:40 Oh yeah, yeah, maybe just now he's an ex.

37:42 Now, because after all this, yeah, like he had to be knocked

37:46 off the bar. So the way that I understand it,

37:49 it's quite a complicated story, but I think Philip Peters has

37:54 basically commissioned the death at some point, the death of

37:58 Peter Kipra, yes, he that did not happen well.

38:02 Yeah, so Peter Kipriu, I know he got a tip off that it was

38:06 happening via the police. There was 'cause obviously the

38:09 cops went to a fair bit of all this stuff at the time and he's,

38:13 they've actually been able to infiltrate and stop the hit

38:16 happening. Yeah.

38:17 So Peter has survived it. However Mr. Laundry ended up in

38:25 I think it was 1994. April 1994, he was arrested and

38:28 charged with conspiracy to murder and obviously because him

38:33 being a lawyer, pretty nifty bargaining.

38:35 He did some good play work, and he ended up being released from

38:40 jail in 1997, mere months before Jane Thurgood Dove was murdered.

38:46 That's it. So the inference now is that you

38:51 know Peters has. So Peters has consulted with

38:57 another man named John who was an ex butcher.

39:00 Now this is not Jane's dad. Well, he was hired so that he

39:07 could butcher people and get rid of bodies that didn't.

39:14 That ended up not working, obviously.

39:16 This is then when Peters has gone to prison.

39:19 Yeah. Peters has come out of prison.

39:20 Yeah. And he's like.

39:22 Whilst in prison, Oh yes, he made some connections with some

39:26 pretty heavy criminals in jail, one being a particular Geelong

39:31 bikie. Just put that under your hat for

39:33 the moment. So we'll come back around to

39:35 Geelong Bikies. We will carefully.

39:41 So the basically they've decided, well, we can't go after

39:45 Peter Kipri because everyone's looking out.

39:47 Yeah, everyone's looking out for him and whatever.

39:50 So they've decided to put a hit out on his wife, Carmel.

39:53 Well, that's yeah. So this is what we everyone's

39:57 making an assumption of it that yeah, at the point, like, yeah,

39:59 yeah, yeah. But there's no proof of it.

40:03 No evidence. No.

40:04 Like, so. And they still don't know.

40:06 OK, Maybe that's what Philip Peters did, Mr. Laundry.

40:11 But who are the people who actually committed the crime?

40:14 Like itself, as much as I probably hold him more

40:17 accountable than anyone, but there's but there's actually

40:19 people who committed it. Well, they know he didn't pull

40:22 the tree. No he doesn't.

40:23 The physical description. He had another aim.

40:25 Someone. Yep, which comes back to good

40:28 old Tuppence and his info being pretty accurate.

40:31 Other than the fact that it wasn't Mark, it wasn't the

40:34 husband that was putting the hit out, which I mean, God, who

40:37 knows Hitman. Not exactly the most intelligent

40:39 people. Well.

40:40 Clearly we had no idea who this guy was that was actually asking

40:42 him to do this job. And I don't know where he even

40:45 got the name Mark. I mean, we'd probably got Mark

40:46 at that point out in the media because the fact was it was the

40:51 wrong woman. And if they he and all the

40:54 information they were given, apparently from this Peter Mr.

40:58 Laundry was three houses down from the corner.

41:01 The blonde haired woman who drives 3/4 wheel drive.

41:05 So I saw something that they were actually following Jane for

41:08 four days before they murdered her.

41:10 So that was the thing like that, that in their investigation they

41:13 found out that because obviously that we should go back a little

41:16 bit, that that that car that was parked at the bottom of her

41:19 driveway that the shooter got in and drove off in was later found

41:25 burnt out, unfortunately, which meant there was no evidence in

41:28 it. So these guys knew what they

41:29 were doing in that sense. So that was that made it a

41:32 little bit more like this is a bit of a professional hit in

41:34 some ways, as much as a hit can be professional because they

41:36 aren't the sharpest tools in the shed usually.

41:40 So. But the neighbors had were able

41:42 to say, we've seen that car like that blue Holden Commodore that

41:47 you've shown us on the news now, all those sorts of things that

41:49 was here a few days ago. I saw it parked down that end of

41:52 the road on that day and I've seen it parked there on that

41:54 day. So it was kind of coming

41:56 together a bit of like this was she was being surveilled.

41:59 Yeah, You know, in some ways so the.

42:00 Police also, you know, this added to the fact that it was a

42:04 professional hit in terms of the car, that car, because it had

42:08 actually been stolen like 6 months prior, Yeah.

42:10 And hidden somewhere, Yeah. So that there wasn't people

42:13 weren't actively out looking for it.

42:16 And so that also goes to potentially gangland type people

42:21 who knew what they were doing at least a degree sort of knew what

42:24 they were doing. Yeah.

42:26 But if we circle back around to 2001 when the $1,000,000 reward

42:31 was being so John McGill, who was, he was very determined that

42:33 he wanted to, he wanted to find out who did this.

42:36 And I think with the overhanging of this of like, was this a

42:38 mistaken identity situation? Was is there something that was

42:41 wrong here? And he wanted to know what?

42:43 Happened to his daughter. So him and a few people got

42:47 together, so they that wanted answers on their own children's

42:51 missing and murdered cases. So there was George and

42:55 Christina Helviges whose daughter Messina was killed at

42:59 Faulkner, who was called at the Faulkner Cemetery in October

43:03 1997. Roger and Joy Memory, whose

43:06 daughter Elizabeth disappeared from Ringwood, which is not far

43:08 from us, her unit in Ringwood in 1994.

43:12 So the six parents who'd all lost daughters in terrible

43:16 situations decided to come together and approach the

43:20 government and ask for these, this $1,000,000 reward to get

43:23 some answers on these cases. So at the time we had Premier

43:27 Steve Brax. We can.

43:29 Yeah. Anyways, so he, to his credit,

43:33 many people didn't want to do this.

43:35 But to his credit, he decided to put the money up so.

43:38 So this was specifically a reward, Yes.

43:41 For information relating to an arrest or progression of a case.

43:47 Yeah. Where it was a seemingly random

43:50 attack on a victim. Yeah.

43:52 We will do a an episode about Messina Hel Vargas because

43:55 that's a really interesting case.

43:57 And the. The perpetrator.

43:58 Oh, my God. I mean, there's so much out

44:00 there about it. Yeah.

44:02 The $1 million reward, once it was posted, basically within 48

44:09 hours, the names of the two people were in the, you know,

44:16 Crime Stoppers had been contacted in the names of the

44:18 two people who were involved in Jane's death.

44:21 Yeah. Were told to the police, Yeah.

44:25 So criminals are obviously, you know, they're, they're tight

44:29 until you offer a $1 million reward.

44:32 Yeah. Just really quickly.

44:33 Yeah. Previous to this, there was a

44:35 reward for Jane's. Sorry, you know, in, in relation

44:39 to Jane's case of $100,000. Yeah.

44:42 Messina Helvargus, her parents, so they're of Greek descent.

44:46 And there was a $50,000 reward out for her, you know, for

44:51 information relating to her case.

44:53 And her dad came out and said when Jane's $100,000 reward was

44:58 announced, he came out and said, what, So a blonde Australian

45:02 woman is worth twice the amount of my Greek daughter.

45:06 And that is actually how John McGill and I can't remember

45:10 Messina's dad's name, but how that's how they sort of

45:14 connected and George, George, and that's how they sort of got

45:18 together and started lobbying the government for this $1

45:21 million reward. So.

45:23 Put on them, yeah, I mean, yeah, he really though they did a lot

45:26 to get that over the line and but rightly so.

45:29 And as you say, the tips came in very quickly for all three of

45:34 those cases. Both the other two cases were

45:38 solved. Yep.

45:40 Very, very quickly now for Jane Thurgood, Dove tips came in real

45:45 quick. Within 30 minutes, they got a

45:47 tip that they would they carried on that they followed up that

45:49 was gave them brilliant information.

45:52 However, to this day it still remains unsolved.

45:55 So that great tip came from a crook who rang in and what Ron

46:00 did was because basically this moon dollar reward was there.

46:02 He was like, I don't want to get false information.

46:04 And this guy was pretty high up in things.

46:08 So he offered him 10 grand First off to meet up and then to

46:12 straight up give him 10 grand when they arrived when he

46:14 arrived. So Can you imagine this cop like

46:15 rocking up with his water cash like to hand over to him and he

46:18 said, if the information you give me checks out, I'll follow

46:22 up with a four with 40 grand. So he heads down to meet this

46:25 crook down in Eastern Beach, right?

46:28 And so he's in his car and I just love this quote from from

46:33 from Ron Idols. He goes, I was shitting myself.

46:38 That's a technical term for being very nervous.

46:44 And I love the fact that he's so honest about the fact that he's

46:46 full on crooks. And he's not.

46:47 He's not in their world, like as much as he is.

46:49 But he isn't. He's not one of them, but he he

46:52 carries himself with them. So he he.

46:55 But you look at Ronnie, you think he's this big gruff, you

46:57 know, brave man. Yeah, of course you'd be

46:59 shooting yourself. He's a teddy bear.

47:01 Let's be honest. He's such a lovely man.

47:03 Yeah. So I love that.

47:06 So this is where it was confirmed by.

47:08 Well, not confirmed by this guy yet.

47:10 So he told him the story of that it's mistaken identity and

47:15 everything and things that he'd already heard.

47:17 So again, Ron wanted to really check this information,

47:19 obviously again. And because he got a fair bit

47:20 more information about who these characters were that were

47:22 involved, he then went down to Barwon Prison and spoke to yet

47:26 yet another really badass person.

47:28 But at least he's behind bars and not in the same car as him

47:31 handing cash over. Good point.

47:33 Yeah, I feel that would be a lot more safe.

47:36 And this guy in Barwon Prison confirmed everything this guy

47:39 said, but he wasn't just able to describe these people.

47:43 He also, well, sorry, he did the same.

47:44 They gave the exact same names as well involved.

47:48 So the Potbelly killer, he was nominated as a former Rebels

47:53 Motorcycle Club bikie by the name of Stephen John Morty.

47:58 So he was also in photos and things like they showed

48:02 witnesses, people were able to identify.

48:04 That's the guy. Yeah.

48:05 So that that that witness that I was talking about, the neighbor

48:09 who was standing across the road.

48:10 Yeah. He picked Morty out of a lineup.

48:14 Yeah. A.

48:14 Photograph, Photograph out because I was fortunately at

48:17 this point in time. So this is 2003.

48:20 Yes, in 2001 Morty died. So.

48:24 He drug overdose. And well, yeah, OK, sorry, I'll

48:28 get a little bit more into him. So I was looking up some biky

48:31 websites. God, your browser history, Our

48:35 browser history said like, not crash.

48:37 Yeah, totally. Don't go looking at mine.

48:39 Sorry. This is.

48:40 I'm sorry, but because I have no sympathy for this man, so I'm

48:42 just going to go into it. All right, So, yeah, go.

48:45 So Morty complained that he was not feeling very well, but he

48:49 ate a cherry ripe and some ice cream before vomiting and still

48:53 managed after that to finish off 2 bottles of Coke.

48:57 Healthy man, pot bellied. I believe the next morning his

49:02 housemate didn't go into his room because he was he liked to

49:06 sleep in and stuff, so he didn't check on him at all.

49:09 But about 2:50 in the afternoon, the housemate went in to check

49:13 on him and found that he had no pulse.

49:16 So they believe that he, yeah, there was drugs in his system,

49:22 but it was more likely cardiac arrest, which could have been

49:25 caused by the drugs potentially, but also could have been just

49:30 generally his lifestyle in general.

49:32 I think, I think that's right. They, I know the level of drugs.

49:38 It was heroin at the level that they found in his system was not

49:41 compatible with life. So, yeah, whatever way that all

49:44 came about, yeah. Yeah, but I love it.

49:47 Cherry ripe and some ice cream. And two bottles of Coke when he

49:50 wasn't feeling good. Although last night, OK, so we

49:53 were talking before about how Ollie had had this operation

49:56 yesterday and I was so tired. I didn't sleep the the night

49:59 before. Yeah, Last night we had dinner

50:01 and then after dinner I was like, I really feel like eating

50:03 something sweet. I was so tired.

50:05 But, you know, I just needed a sugar.

50:07 Yeah. So I ate ice cream, a chocolate

50:10 bar, and then I raided the kids Halloween lollies.

50:15 And by the end, by the time it was time to go to bed, I was

50:18 like vibing on another level. And I woke up, I actually woke

50:20 up this morning feeling so yuck because I think I just had so

50:24 much sugar, hangover sugar. Hangover.

50:27 It wasn't even an alcohol hangover.

50:29 Have annoying deal. Cheers anyway.

50:32 So look, what I'm saying is I can understand the mode of

50:35 sometimes you just need something sweet and nothing

50:37 nothing. When I'm going to vomit, like

50:39 I'm feeling mad, I'm like, oh, I don't all settle my stomach,

50:42 cherry ripen some ice cream and then some coke.

50:45 Wash it down with a couple of bottles of.

50:46 Cake. Oh no.

50:47 God, no. I just love that they've put

50:50 that out there. That's what The roommate I had

50:53 to say about his bikie mate, Yeah.

50:55 What else could you say? Really.

50:56 Oh God, yeah. So it.

50:58 Wasn't an outstanding bloke, you know that you if you've got

51:00 nothing else nice to say, this is it, I.

51:02 Mean so again, so we've got this guy who he's been identified by

51:05 witness all that sort of stuff like potentially you could go to

51:07 court and you could arrest him for that.

51:09 He's dead unfortunately, so we can't go any further with him.

51:13 The next one on the list was the man who would organize the car.

51:18 So as you said that that Holden Commodore that was in the the

51:22 driveway etcetera had been collected earlier.

51:24 That was well, it was organized. It wasn't just a pinched a car

51:28 drove around the street. It was organized by someone who

51:31 knew what they were doing. And this guy was named as James

51:34 Ann Reynolds. So name is also known as Jamie I

51:38 believe. Yeah, Jamie Reynolds.

51:39 Yep. So Reynolds was he.

51:43 He was the one who obviously. He was the getaway driver.

51:46 He was the no, no, he wasn't the getaway driver.

51:48 No. So he was actually the guy who,

51:50 well, somewhat getaway driver. So he actually, he organised the

51:53 cars. And so there was a getaway

51:56 driver separate to this guy in the car at the bottom of the

51:58 driveway who drove off with Morty.

52:02 Jamie met them where they burnt the car out.

52:05 Yeah, with a with a second car. Yeah.

52:07 So that makes we've got three people who are being named here.

52:10 Well, one not being named, but 2 being named and the third

52:13 involved where so he's collected them from the burn burnt out car

52:18 to take them elsewhere again. But so that was his role in this

52:22 apparently, allegedly. So Ron was very keen to speak to

52:29 this Jamie. He was still around at this

52:30 point, obviously wanting to speak, to speak to him and get a

52:33 bit more information. Unfortunately, Ron went to go

52:37 and get resources to be able to like look into this guy more.

52:40 They needed to know what who he was and what was going on with

52:42 him to be and then approach, just sort of just walk up at the

52:44 guy's doorstep. You don't need to have a bit of

52:45 a team around you to go, right? Who is he?

52:47 What is he doing? What, are we going to talk to

52:48 him? And some information to kind of

52:50 add weight to what you're to what you're then going to

52:53 accuse. Absolutely.

52:54 So there's a bit more to it than just knocking on a door.

52:57 But unfortunately Ron was declined any resources because

53:01 the Piranha Task Force, which I think as we've said, we will go

53:04 into the underbelly world of Melbourne in a series I think.

53:07 But the Piranha Task force of what was looking at taking down

53:10 the underbelly world in Melbourne, very well known in

53:13 Melbourne in terms of that. So we unfortunately there was no

53:16 resources available to him because they were all being used

53:19 on this Piranha Task Force. Now what?

53:21 How do you feel about that? Yeah, I'm really disappointed in

53:23 that because I feel like that we should, I know, I understand

53:27 that it becomes a resource issue in terms of money as well.

53:29 And like caught enough cops. And at that time we needed lots

53:32 of cops because there was a lot going on in Melbourne in that

53:35 situation that surely some, someone could have been found to

53:39 be given to Ron to follow this up.

53:41 I think so. I think, you know, the gangland

53:45 war was being fought amongst gangsters.

53:48 Yeah, I know there were certain situations where there was

53:51 collateral damage of innocent civilians, but on the whole they

53:55 were just murdering each other. Yeah, which you know.

53:57 Which, fuck, whatever. Well, no, to be fair, whatever.

54:00 Because you deal. You.

54:02 You. Deal in that.

54:03 That's it. That's what's going to happen to

54:05 you potentially, but then not to throw resources into the

54:09 investigation of a a brutal murder in front of her children

54:14 of an innocent woman. I think that's disgusting.

54:17 Why are we allocating resources away?

54:21 I understand we needed resources to investigate and and curb the

54:26 gangland wars that were happening in Melbourne and and

54:28 it was intense. You know, this is in our living

54:30 memory. We remember what it was like.

54:34 But that's not to say that resources then shouldn't also be

54:38 put into investigating murders of innocent people.

54:42 I I I the fact that that was the reason you I.

54:46 Guess the take infuriates me. This has been this many years,

54:48 what's another few months? Gonna what?

54:50 Gonna change. But they actually they were so.

54:52 Wrong in that, but that's. That pisses me off even more

54:55 because they had intelligence. They they knew what they were

54:58 looking for. It's not like they were

54:59 investigating a completely cold case that they had no new leads

55:03 on. They had leads, they had people,

55:05 they knew names, they knew what they wanted to find out.

55:08 It wasn't like they probably only needed a few months worth

55:12 of surveillance, or maybe not even that.

55:13 I don't know. It's so it's so.

55:16 Frustrating. And then to add to that

55:19 frustration, seven months later, he finally gets the resources he

55:22 needs to go and chase this up. And what happened?

55:26 And dies. He died so.

55:28 Round in a boating accident. Yeah, because he's a fuck wit

55:30 out near Queens Cliff. Yeah.

55:32 Bat, bow and heads. Yeah.

55:34 So apparently Ron had gone to John and Helen McGill, Jane's

55:38 parents the a few weeks before and said, oh, finally we've got

55:42 the resources. We're able to, you know, we're

55:44 able to investigate him. I'm on leave for the next couple

55:47 of weeks. As soon as I get back.

55:48 That is my number one thing. We're on it.

55:50 I'm going to get him. Yeah, Ron goes on his leave,

55:53 which he's well and truly entitled to.

55:54 I'm not even saying that to anything.

55:56 He comes back and finds out that within that two weeks he died.

56:01 Yeah. Oh God.

56:02 Like in a boating accident. Yeah, just complete.

56:05 Just drown. I'm just being a Dick.

56:06 He went out in this tiny little boat.

56:08 In a tin in these. Really like big seas, Yeah, I

56:11 mean, that bow and heads is pretty rough.

56:12 Yeah, yeah, he'd gone out through the heads like in a

56:15 little tinny. Tinny, like, I mean, no one else

56:17 would have done what he did. Like, literally.

56:19 And yeah, drowned, yeah. So that leaves us with the

56:23 getaway driver. So we've we have got a clear

56:26 description of who he is of like, look what he looks like.

56:30 His name has not been released. I do believe the name has

56:33 actually, I know the name has been given to police.

56:36 So by this way of this information that came to them.

56:41 So he's the one that's still remaining.

56:44 They just can't get him. So they believe that the suspect

56:49 is a Geelong bikie. So this was where the connection

56:52 comes back to Tuppence. No, sorry.

56:55 Not Tuppence. Sorry.

56:56 No. Comes back to the Morty.

56:58 The No. Peter Phillips.

57:01 Phillips. Right.

57:01 Peters. Sorry.

57:02 Yeah. Mr. Laundry.

57:03 Mr. Laundry. Mr. Laundry in Prison met up

57:06 with a very highly ranked Geelong bikie, so we believe

57:11 that this is how he's organized. I.

57:13 See OK, so bring it back again a little.

57:15 Also, this is I love this comment too.

57:18 So the Jalong Baki who they said he's now nearing probably

57:22 retirement age. However, with his lifestyle that

57:25 he has, he doesn't work. They've named him the human

57:29 slug. Just what a great.

57:33 I mean, you get a really good mentality.

57:35 Question of who? This guy is so clearly he.

57:38 Yeah, yeah. So there's him and obviously

57:42 Philip Peters is still alive and and this getaway driver, Yes.

57:48 And they are still on the cops radar and still looking into

57:50 them. They just haven't got any

57:52 further with it, which is really frustrating.

57:56 But that's unfortunately where we sit in terms of where things

58:00 are at gone and where we're at. Just I do, I did write down a

58:04 quote which I'll go for. I love it, you know, it's just,

58:06 it's could anything more Aussie have been said?

58:09 So Jamie Reynolds, so the one who died in the the boating

58:12 accident, a colleague of his who has then colleague.

58:17 Sorry. Yep.

58:18 Well, what are they associate? An associate of his has has come

58:23 forward and told the cops that apparently he said we got the

58:28 wrong Sheila. Oh whoops whoops whoops.

58:33 See Sheila? Oh my God, for our non

58:37 Australian listeners that means woman.

58:40 Yeah, yeah, yeah, Oh man, God love them so yeah, because so

58:45 this mistaken identity whole theory, yeah, which is just so

58:50 beyond shit. If you want to look into that

58:53 further, Naked City the podcast John Sylvester I believe goes

58:58 into a fair bit and I think even Andrew roll on his.

59:01 Podcast has discussed it too. There are.

59:03 Other mistaken identity cases, yes, that that it's not as

59:08 uncommon as you'd like to think because as we said,

59:13 unfortunately hitman, when you when you think of a hitman, you

59:16 think of someone who's, you know, precise and, you know,

59:19 sneaky and I don't and like really highly.

59:21 Trained. Highly trained Something, No.

59:22 That's not who they are, unfortunately, Yeah.

59:25 These are people who are willing to just take money to go murder

59:27 someone. I mean, they're not like, you

59:29 know, high society. That's.

59:31 For sure. So there's quite a few

59:33 unfortunately of mistaken identity and quite horrific ones

59:37 that they go into on their podcasts.

59:39 So worth a look into. We'll put.

59:41 A link to Yeah, to those episodes specifically, because I

59:44 know Andrew Rule's podcast isn't named anything along the lines

59:48 of Jane Thurgood dub. I can't remember what the title

59:50 of the podcast is, but yes, we will put a link to that this

59:53 specific episode because it's really worth a listen.

59:56 And I just love Andrew Rule and I love John Sylvester.

59:59 They're awesome. Yeah, they're really good and

1:00:00 their journalism's really fun, their writing as well as their.

1:00:02 Podcast, it's great. They're really awesome.

1:00:04 Man, they're all over it. Another really sort of, I guess

1:00:08 another thing to come out of this and, and was informed by

1:00:11 Jane's case and by a lot of other cold cases was in 2021, a

1:00:17 cold case homicide hub was set up.

1:00:19 This is an online platform in Australia and they put the

1:00:24 police, it's run by the police, they put cold cases in the hopes

1:00:31 that anyone can access it. You can just go online and

1:00:34 search Cold Case Homicide Hub I. Believe they like feature like

1:00:37 5A. Month, I think something like

1:00:39 that, maybe 2 a week or something like that.

1:00:42 Yeah. But you can go in there and read

1:00:44 case notes and information. There's photos of the people who

1:00:49 are the victims and there are so many in there now.

1:00:52 But you know, if you've got any information, you know, they say

1:00:56 to call Crime Stoppers or you can submit anonymously through

1:01:00 online through the hub. Yeah.

1:01:02 Just worth worth. If you know something you know,

1:01:04 even if you think it's so pointless, it may end up being

1:01:08 that key bit of information that links something else together.

1:01:11 We don't know what we. Don't know what you don't know?

1:01:14 That's. It, yeah.

1:01:15 So it's worth just saying it and putting it out there and make it

1:01:17 and then that way you know, you can feel better that you have

1:01:19 you've said it, but also that they can do with it what needs

1:01:22 to happen. And whether that be that's not

1:01:23 relevant or 100% is, yeah. Yeah.

1:01:26 Yeah, totally, absolutely. I'm sure that wherever you're

1:01:30 listing would have similar services, but here in Victoria

1:01:32 obviously it's Crime Stoppers that you need to contact or via

1:01:35 that hub. Yeah, that's it.

1:01:36 Yeah, Unfortunately, Jane's parents, you know, they're still

1:01:42 out in the media. As I said, when when this.

1:01:44 Cold case now I mean well and. Sure, definitely when this cold

1:01:48 case homicide hub was originally established, they were

1:01:52 interviewed by the media. They, they appeared on behalf of

1:01:58 the police and we're saying, you know how important it is for

1:02:02 information to come to light. And then they are, they're

1:02:04 really elderly now I. Think he was He was 83 at the

1:02:08 time. So, you know, Jane's mom says in

1:02:10 there that she doesn't want to go to her grave not knowing what

1:02:13 happened to Jane and not having anyone found responsible for her

1:02:16 death. And I think that's, you know,

1:02:19 that's completely reasonable. Absolutely.

1:02:21 Losing a child, I can't even imagine.

1:02:26 And to think of kids, kids who are now adults.

1:02:28 Yeah, I mean that we're all in there well into their 30s, I

1:02:31 guess now. Yeah, late 20s, early 30s.

1:02:33 And her husband, who's, you know, had to deal with the

1:02:36 fallout of all of this and losing his absolutely beautiful

1:02:39 wife especially. With that shadow, I guess of

1:02:41 like, was there a fair? Was it wasn't there?

1:02:44 Like maybe he knew more, I don't know, but.

1:02:47 I'm with you. I'm with you on that, though.

1:02:48 I really, I think it was very much one sided.

1:02:51 I I don't, we don't know. Nobody knows what happens behind

1:02:55 closed doors. But I I think you're right.

1:02:58 I think we're we're on the same page with that.

1:03:00 Yeah, yeah. All right.

1:03:02 Well, I think that sort of leads us to the end of brings us to

1:03:06 the end of another, another week, another episode next week.

1:03:09 We're kind of changing the tune a little bit.

1:03:12 We're going to be talking about the Ashley Madison scandal.

1:03:16 Scandal saga. Yeah, that's.

1:03:19 Fascinating. And there's a lot of facets to

1:03:21 this one. Yeah, so much actually.

1:03:24 Actually, this could be a big week of research.

1:03:26 I think it will be myself. Yeah.

1:03:29 What have we done to us? I don't.

1:03:30 Know what have we done to? Us now just really quickly, I

1:03:33 wanted to also mention our last episode of this year.

1:03:37 We are putting it out there to our listeners to vote on what

1:03:40 they would like. So if there's a if there is a an

1:03:43 episode you would like us or a case that you would like us to

1:03:45 cover DMS on Instagram, contact us through our e-mail, which is

1:03:50 2 [email protected]. We I've had a few suggestions.

1:03:55 Has anyone approached you or I? I've had a couple come through

1:03:58 online and then I had a colleague of mine at work

1:04:01 suggest a case as. Well, a couple of suggestions of

1:04:04 sort of, yeah, friends around the trap of cool listening.

1:04:06 OK, So yeah, but no, I'd, we'd love to get some more, throw

1:04:09 them out there, yeah. And the most popular one will

1:04:11 win. That's the case we'll cover for

1:04:13 our last episode of 2024. For sure.

1:04:15 That's oh God, that'll be interesting.

1:04:17 What's what do we? Oh.

1:04:19 What's everyone into? Yeah.

1:04:21 All right. Drop us a line everyone for.

1:04:22 Sure, and don't forget to, if you would like to, you can buy

1:04:25 us a coffee at Buy Me a Coffee forwardslash.com/two Crime

1:04:30 Besties. I'll get it right.

1:04:31 I'll put it in the show notes anyway.

1:04:32 So click down there if you want to buy a coffee.

1:04:34 Thank you and jump on the socials and chat.

1:04:36 Cheers. Thanks everybody.

1:04:38 See you next time. Stay curious, crime besties.

1:04:42 Bye.