REPLAY - Episode 18 - Karen Ristevski

0:16 Welcome everyone, to another episode of Two Crime Besties. Hey Emma, how you going? I am fantastic, Meg. I am off the back of a fairly impromptu trip to Bali with some really gorgeous friends of ours and feeling relaxed and lovely. Yeah, nice. And sure, we've had enough cocktails to last year for a little bit longer. Might have thank you very much for for taking on that easy street update in one of our recent episodes because that happened while I was away. So you did a great job. Thank you thank you taking one for the team.

0:51 But I actually think there's another easy straight update today. Do you wanna? Do you wanna give? Us the the background on what's been happening. There's been a little bit more coming out just slowly about that because now obviously he's been arrested and he's sitting in jail in, in Rome that I think I guess people are just coming forward, you know, who know him of when he was living in Australia and that sort of thing. So finding out a little bit more information about who he was because his name's been released and now that's gone off the top of my head where his name is, but he's an interesting character in this was, as we said in the episode, he was in the file all along.

1:25 So he was a 17 year. Old love that for Ron. Oh, Ron has it. All the time. He's all over that stuff. Yeah, yeah. But yeah, he was 17 at the time and he was attending Collingwood College, which is the school where Susan Bartlett was a teacher at, teaching arts and crafts. So there is a connection there where they may have known each other. So that's curious. Well, that's true. So is that his? Brother came out to say that. I. Think so. I think so. But now his brothers, like, come out again to say like, oh, actually I got it wrong.

2:01 He wasn't there. But although other people have then also come out to say he was there anyway, His name is Perry Corumbus. There we go. That's it. Yeah. I'm sorry if I said that wrong. No, yeah, you can jump online. You can find like there's now like photos been released to him and stuff so you can see what he looks like. But yeah, so he's, so he had, he was pulled over on the night, which I find interesting is obviously driving, which I was. I don't know whether he was legally driving or not at 17.

2:26 That's I don't know if you were allowed to get your license back. Yeah, I don't know. But he was driving pulled over and he had the knife in the boot, which he told police at the time he just was, he had, he saw it on the at the railway station and so he picked it up. So the knife was tested and to be found to be the knife involved. However, they've seemed to have just believed that story, that he's picked it up and it's not related to him. Because when we were doing our research for this, yeah, we believe the knife was found at a train station.

3:00 Yeah. So that's who it was found by. So yeah, I've put a few things together since in terms of that. And that seems to be Yeah. So to me, that seems curious as to why that wasn't followed up further at the time. Mm Hmm. But. Anyway. Although maybe we just didn't know and they maybe they couldn't pin anything on him at the time. Like we don't know the fact that he was interviewed. OK, yes, he had the murder weapon in his car. Yeah. Surely the police would be extremely suspicious of that. Whether they could?

3:31 Prove anything? Well, obviously they weren't able to prove anything further to that at that point. So until the DNA evidence basically was being followed through, they would have had their list of 130 odd suspects that they were wedding out slowly. And I don't think that was being done in a hurry by any means. So they were wedding those out. Obviously, those top sort of eight that we mentioned in our episode were ruled out quite quickly through that DNA evidence and he was still on their list and they were getting to him, but he skipped the country and so therefore wasn't tested.

4:05 But they have since tested a family member and it was a match. So interesting. Obviously they still would want to do a direct test on him. Yeah, to confirm that for sure. But obviously. But this was enough to for them to Co that, yeah, they need to be looking into this guy. Yeah. But they had to keep it all so quiet because they needed him to move out of Greece to be able to arrest. Him just waiting. Yeah, yeah. So, yeah. I mean, sometimes you think, you know, the cops are doing nothing and they're terrible at their job, whatever.

4:35 But I think we have to have that understanding that sometimes they do just need to keep quiet to do their job. So. And we don't know every, we don't know everything. No. Yeah. So good on Victoria poll. Yeah. And thankfully it sounds like, I mean, look, everything will come out as it comes out. But yeah, they've got somebody who they, you know, very strongly suspect was involved in this crime. And we're just waiting now for extradition to Victoria. So he's still in. Rome is a really long process.

5:03 It could be 6 months or more before we actually get him out of Rome. At this point because of the, there's a quite a huge appeal process that occurs. So once we, it has to get to a quite a few levels of appeals which he'll he'll appeal all of them 'cause he's currently saying he's got nothing to do with this. So he will appeal at all levels they believe. So it could be a long time before we see anything and have him here in Australia to then have a trial. Yeah. But, well, we'll just keep you updated as we find, yeah?

5:32 We'll keep doing updates as we as we learn more information about the case. The other one I wanted to bring up actually before we start today's. Case. Was the Meninda the. Brother. Have you been watching the new Netflix series? I started it not last night, but the night before. Yeah, right. So I don't know about you, but I find when we're researching a case, I really need to focus on that one case. Otherwise, other things get in my head and then I get. Facts. And. Ideas muddled. Up. Yeah, yeah. So anyway, Peter and I were just.

6:05 Sort of. Looking for something to watch the other night together and I'm like, oh, let's let's give it a go because you've spoken to me about it. Tell. Me. Tell us your take on the interpretation. So this is a recently released, it's called Monsters on Netflix. It's definitely brought the Menendez case to a lot more people. And I've had, I've actually had several work colleagues mentioned to me, Oh my God, I listened to your case. Yeah. And then I've watched Monsters and wow, it's a really different, really different taste on it.

6:37 So tell, tell me what you think knowing that now that yeah, you've watched the whole thing. Yeah, I, I wasn't a fan of the Netflix series. And I look, The thing is, I think you've got to remember it's a dramatization. It isn't like completely and utterly factual. Yeah. Because watching it, it did frustrate me because of a lot of the facts that I knew of the case. Yeah. Were altered in that show. It's I would had a sort of a take on it where I was like, oh, OK, maybe they're playing it out of like they're presenting it in a way of like how people could have seen it and then flipping it.

7:06 And I know this is actually how they, their perception of it. Interesting kind of way to film this show, I think. But it still didn't work for me. I don't know. It didn't. Yeah. I don't know. I think because I have, I have a degree of empathy for them. And that show wants you to think they're monsters. And I, I can't come at them being pure monsters because of what they were they, they was inflicted upon them. Yeah, so the. Series basically implies that that maybe didn't happen. Yeah. And I mean, I'm getting that vibe already.

7:43 As I said, I haven't watched right through to the end yet, but that's gross. To me because. There's so much evidence to support the fact, and we talk about this in our episode. If you haven't listened to our episode on the Menendez brothers, please go back and have a listen because yeah, we make our feelings very much known. You mentioned when we were chatting about it the other day that there's another documentary coming out there. Is another documentary coming out where Eric Menendez, particularly, I'm not so sure of Lyle what in what he's had involvement in it, but particularly Eric has had some input into that documentary.

8:15 OK, where they interview him or whether he's just given advice on the background. I don't know yet. It hasn't 'cause it hasn't been released, OK. But there is another one coming out very soon and I think that that would could be a more factual. So it depends on what you're looking for. Look, I really enjoyed this. So this was also made by the same people who did the Dharma one. Oh yeah. And I really liked that. Yeah, that was good. But I just wonder whether because I had researched Menendez Brothers so heavily and had such an understanding of it that it it just influenced my opinion on it.

8:46 I've heard other people also come to me and kind of get generally like it. Like so I don't biased. I don't know. But listen to our podcast maybe if you want the facts of what the case actually, you know, ensured. Yeah. Yeah. And then you can make your own judgement. But I guess, I guess it's a reminder to watch everything quite critically. Like everybody has their own agenda. And I mean, even when we're researching things like I, I know you're the same. We just, we tend to form an opinion, which we're very sort of vocal about when we're talking through the episodes.

9:21 I think you guys have an idea of what we think at the end of the day, but everyone's entitled to their own opinions and we're super curious to hear what what everyone has to say. Yeah, no, I'd love to hear. I mean, opposing thoughts on it and, you know, try and change our minds and our opinions. That's it. Yeah. I mean, I'm very careful with my research in that generally, I mean, not that I'm gonna get everything right, but I don't generally take things as fact until I've seen it in a number of places, you know, that sort of stuff.

9:49 And checking reputable sources. Yeah. Which is why I think when I watched it, I was like, I don't think so, yeah. There's even watching the episodes that I have so far, there's a few things I'm like, well, I know that didn't happen and I know that happened that way and. Yeah. Yeah, so I guess they've taken some creative license to make it more entertaining or whatever. That definitely made the two boys unappealing. Yeah. And yeah, I don't know. I don't. I don't know if that's a positive or negative thing, because at the end of the day, they did do what they did.

10:20 Yep, but context is a lot. Absolutely. Especially in this or in any case. Yeah, especially in this case. Yeah, all. Right. Yes, Interesting. Should we get into today's case then? Let's do that. So this one I think we sort of thought wasn't gonna be a big one until you get into it and sort of start researching it and go. There's actually a fair bit here. So yeah. So today we're gonna talk about Karen Ristevski. So Karen Ristevski was from Avondale Heights in just western suburbs of Melbourne, which again is in our sort of local ish to us, on the other side of town to us.

10:56 So this case is fairly recent. So it was very, it's very fresh in our minds. I know I remember a lot of this occurring in real time. So, yeah, but The thing is now researching, it's like you sort of get a different perspective, I guess, of what you saw from the news, you know, four or five years ago when this was occurring, longer than that now, actually more like 8 years ago, yeah. So yeah, we'll get into it, get into it. Now, before, before we get into it, Oh yeah, we need to discuss some pronunciations.

11:26 Oh yeah, sorry. Karen's husband, who is a pivotal character in this story. So. His name, his name is, well, we, we were talking about the, the pronunciation of his name. We've decided to call him throughout this podcast, Boris. His name is actually Borche. We've also heard on different publications in in different podcasts when we've been researching this, people calling him boss. Yeah, there is a home video in which he refers to himself as Boris. And that's why we've decided to go down that path.

12:04 A lot of the more reputable news agencies who've also covered this story also call him Boris. So that's what we're doing. But it's probably worth noting that his name is actually BORCE, and probably pronounced Borce. You know, traditionally. Dare say he's Australianized it, yeah. And gone with Boris, as you know. Yeah, as we tend to do here in here in Australia. Yeah, so. Boris and Karen So Karen was born in Wellington in New Zealand on the 7th of Feb 1969. Boris and Karen had a daughter together named Sarah.

12:46 There is a lot of information about Sarah out on the Internet. She's been interviewed by a very prominent program in Australia, 60 Minutes. It's a very interesting interview and we are going to talk about that a lot today. Yeah, But definitely go and have a watch because it really informs what, you know, a lot of the opinions that we've had for the episode today. Boris actually has a son from a previous relationship as well, Anthony. He lived with Karen, Boris and Sarah during his teen years, but in his 20s and at the time of Karen's disappearance and subsequent like known murder and he wasn't living with the family at the time.

13:36 And again, we will get into his involvement in this sort of later on down the track. Yeah. So Karen went missing from their beautiful Avondale Heights home on the 29th of June in 2016. It was a Wednesday morning, nothing sort of out of the ordinary according to everybody around her. She left home at 10:00 in the morning after what Boris describes as an argument over money. So Karen and I guess did Boris Co own that that the clothing business? I believe so. I believe it was family business there.

14:15 Yeah, he he was in. On it, did he? Work at all in that business. I got a vibe that potentially he may have maybe had a little bit of to do with the books, maybe on an odd occasion, but. OK, well, he was certainly not all that happy according this is all According to him at this point. He wasn't happy that the day's takings from the day before were only $850 and it wasn't enough to sort of make ends meet for the business, which, so they had a clothing store called Bella Blue at was at Water Gardens Shopping Centre.

14:51 Yeah, they had also within the previous months, they had a second site that they'd actually closed down at a different shopping centre in Melbourne. So obviously the business wasn't going all that. Yeah, well. Yeah, there was a fair bit of debt attached to the business. Yeah. I believe the business itself had a roughly $600,000 debt and as a couple they had around $1,000,000 debt. Is that is that? 1.11.2 million, OK, including a mortgage, some credit card debt, yeah. So there's a. Significant amount of money owed, yeah.

15:26 And so look, I can understand if you're owning your own business, that's a financially that's a tough that's a really tough gig. And if you're in that amount of debt, absolutely you'd be watching the books every single day. Yeah, according to Boris, he's had this argument that, you know, there's only been $850 worth of takings. I believe Water Gardens Shopping Center had actually like they, they'd been like, looking for their money. So things were really tight. Hadn't paid rent. Hadn't paid rent or they would.

16:00 They would. Definitely owing rent. And so, yeah, Boris is saying they've had an argument about the previous day's takings. Now all mind you, Sarah was home this morning previous to the argument. Yeah, but Boris was just watching TV on the couch while Karen was in the study trying to sort of work on the books and figure out what to do. I think she was actually looking at potentially was she looking at another line of clothing? I. Think she's looking at some designs and stuff and what colours she might order of certain things for the for the store.

16:37 Yeah, right. So she's asked. Sarah's opinion on colours or something and. Right. So she's looking to try and I don't know further the business in some way obviously. Doing some buying or whatever. So yeah, yeah, add to the the range or something in the store. Yep. Yep. So she's. Yeah, according to Boris, they've had this argument and she's left the house. Which so Sarah had already Sarah left for she was doing in some an internship or something. Yes, she was. She was a graphic. I think now she's a graphic designer.

17:08 So I believe she was doing an internship. She just. Turned 21 a few weeks prior and had left the morning herself to go off to do this little, this bit of a job that she was doing. So she wasn't home. I think she might have left sort of, you know, 8:30-ish in the morning or something. And then so this is all sort of, according to Boris, has taken part. Now this argument has has taken place after Sarah has left. Yeah, Yeah. So they've had their argument. And According to him, she's then left the house to cool down after an argument.

17:37 And then as the days progressed, Sarah has been trying to contact her just as she was. She's very close with her mum and her dad and there has been no response from Karen throughout the day from text messages or phone calls that Sarah has made. Obviously she's gotten home from her day's work as well and still and mum's not home. Boris has explained to her mum's gone out for a walk to cool off. We had a bit of an argument have she hasn't come back but she's fine and they've headed out for the evening for dinner at his parents house I believe.

18:08 Yeah, that's right. Yeah, so they've headed there for the evening. Again, no sign of Karen when they come home from dinner and they head off to bed with still no sight. Yeah, so. Sarah describes this as like she was sort of bit taken aback, like her mum and dad had had arguments before and her mum had gone for a walk or gone for a coffee or, you know, just sort of left the house to cool off a little bit but had never been gone for this long. And I think Boris kind of dismissed any, you know, any concerns that Sarah had basically saying, yeah, she'll be right.

18:46 She'll, I'm sure she'll. She's just with a friend or whatever, she'll. Probably stay in a friend's house or something. Yeah, but yeah. But that wasn't, wasn't that, that had never happened before. She'd always come home and, you know, at least by the time it was time for bed, I think even even sooner, generally speaking. Yeah. So Sarah was quite concerned. Now she's a 21 year old woman, but she's still living in the home of her mum and dad. So that's that's a difficult position for an adult child to be in.

19:14 You trust your. Dad, he was the one there with her, you know, when she's got left the house, I guess. But the fact. That she hadn't been able to contact her mum all day, that'd be that'd definitely raise some suspicion. Yeah, for sure. I yeah. But yeah, I think the type of person Boris was is. I think you're right, would be pretty overbearing and trying to be hard to argue against it for sure. Yeah, so they've gone to bed and then the next morning, obviously Karen hasn't returned to the house and they've decided to go to Avondale Heights Police station to report her missing.

19:48 Mm hmm. According to Sarah, the constable who took the initial report was very dismissive. She said he basically said that, oh, she's probably at the pokies, just give it a couple more hours and wait until she comes home. Yeah, Sarah and Boris see why they wouldn't say if. If I was reporting my husband missing and a police officer said that to me, I'd be like, well, no, he literally never goes to the pokies. No, you need to listen to me. This is. So out of character for him. Yeah, but they didn't.

20:25 Well, Boris certainly didn't do that. And I guess Sarah would have taken the lead from Boris at that point. Yeah, and I think, I mean, it's been latched onto for Boris in terms of like, oh, they're dismissing us there 'cause he, he apparently then said, you know, come back at midday if she still hasn't been, you know, heard from. So I do think that there's a bit of the, the police sort of playing it a little bit to see what's the reaction from people if we play, if we play it cool. I mean cops and, you know, notoriously known for keeping their cool in situations and making sure that their their demeanour is kept low and then the reaction of other people is what they watch for.

20:59 That's actually a really good point. Yeah. So I think if if they had stood there and said no, no, no, no, she doesn't do the pokies, this is not OK. We need, we need help. Now I do think that maybe something more would have happened. I'd be surprised if it wouldn't have. That would be really shithouse. And if that's the case, then you know, that's really poor on that police. Officers, they kind of just went, oh, OK, we'll come back in. Yeah, because I think that would have been Boris leading that.

21:23 And he would have, I mean, clearly he didn't really want her being looked for, you know. So I think he would have walked out of there going, Oh yeah, shit cops, you know, and that's he's, he's used all of that to his advantage then with Sarah. Yeah, that's, that's an interesting take and I think absolutely valid. Like, yeah, it's, it's just. Just horrible. I mean, he was playing the concerned husband right from the get go. Wasn't. He Yeah, yes, playing. The interesting thing is, at this point, when they've gone to the police, they hadn't contacted any of Karen's friends.

21:54 No, he hadn't run. With anybody to find if she was staying the night with, you know, where she'd stayed the night now that he had not made a single phone call. So it wasn't until midday when they did go back to the police station that yeah, that's when the cops did kick into gear and people and friends were contacted and told or ask the question, have you seen Karen? Because yeah, Boris hadn't done any of that private prior to that. I mean, which again, she's a 21 year old woman. Wouldn't you think she could even jump on the phone to an auntie or a friend or something and say, hey, have you seen mum?

22:24 Because I can't get hold of her. Which? I find all very interesting. It absolutely is, yeah. We will get further into why we think that is probably a little bit later on in the episode. But Needless to say, that didn't happen. And the police were the first ones to contact close friends and family at that point when they've gone back at midday and been like, well, she still hasn't shown up. Yeah, they've contacted friends and family, none of whom had seen her or heard from her. No. What had she taken?

23:00 Supposedly taken with her when she went for this walk. Yeah, so she's taken supposedly her phone and her handbag. Was there anything else that she took with? Her. No, I think that. Was it but? Still, I mean, who takes the handbag to go for a walk to cool down? I mean, I can take the phone, definitely. Yeah, yeah. They lived in Avondale Heights and their house it was it's a stunning house. It was worth 1.1 million Australian dollars, so really nice family home. It backed onto the Maribyrnong River and there were walking tracks all along there, so you would think if she was gonna go for a walk to cool off after an argument, she'd go for a wanderer.

23:37 Along the river, you know, like. But you wouldn't. I wouldn't take my handbag for a wanderer. We've got a Creek out the back of our house. Yeah, I might. Well, I I do. I take my phone and my dog. Yeah, exactly. Most important thing, yeah. And that's it. A a poop bag? Yeah. Not for me. I knew you'd go there. So yeah, it's just. Really bizarre that like, you know, he, I don't know. Yeah, right from the get go. There's so many red flags that make me go. Absolutely, and I do think the cops were onto it pretty quickly to be honest, that there was more to this.

24:13 I think the police have later come out to say that they suspected Boris's involvement from very early on. Yeah. And so he was definitely watched under that sort of lens for a very long time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it was within the first few days even of the of her being reported missing that they put a device on his vehicle, which unfortunately either they don't really know whether he took it off or whether it fell off, but they query whether which one. Yeah, yeah. So they were, they were definitely keeping an eye on him for sure of what his his movement was and what was going on with him because they did suspect something.

24:48 Yeah, I feel like there was another tactic that was used. They put Boris and Sarah in front of the media a couple of days after after Karen was. Reported Yeah, on July 4th, yeah. And so this was the first press conference that the family kind of was involved with. It was at the front of the Avondale Heights police station. And his behaviour, you can again, go on YouTube and you can see the whole press conference. His behaviour's bizarre. Sarah is clearly incredibly distressed. Like, it's actually quite confronting to watch because you can easily put yourself in her shoes.

25:27 Not that we will hopefully ever know what that feels like. Yeah. But you can see the absolute agony in her and the distress in her. Yeah. And the perceived distress in Boris. Yeah, he's interesting, that's for damn sure. He's got this like really gruff look on his face, like it's not, it's not. There's nothing soft about him. There's nothing. It's just like, it's like he looks angry. Actually, he looks angry. Police are kind of, as we said, are quite suspicious and they. Interviewed him about July 8th, I think it was actually pulled him in for his first formal interview in what he, yeah, knew of the situation, which obviously at that point he was, he denied any, you know, any wrongdoing other than just just, he kept actually going back over at that point even about sort of dismissing that it wasn't their finances were fine, even though they had an argument.

26:21 He kept really reiterating this fact around, like, you know, yeah, but we're not in a, you know, in a dire situation with our finances and was, like, trying to, like, justify that where the cops were quite taken aback by that because there wasn't really no concern in that interview around where Karen was. It was more about justifying that you know that their finances aren't as bad as it sounds. And. Like if you're in $1.1 million of debt that you can't finance on a monthly basis, you're in trouble.

26:46 Yeah. Like, and he, OK, Boris was not really working at the time. He had lot of odd jobs. He was an Uber driver for a bit. He did like construction labouring like as in like. Just here and there like. There was nothing, No. No. So to me, if you're in a family situation where you've got a business that's running that you know needs some help to get going properly, it's isn't going great. And then what? What's he doing sitting around watching TV? Like why isn't he working? Why isn't he going out and paying the mortgage so that the business can pay for itself rather than the money out of the business having to pay for the mortgage as well as all the other debt and have, they're living a pretty huge lifestyle in that, you know, well.

27:30 They had really expensive cars, like Karen's car was a Mercedes, like a really like sort of later model Mercedes. And yeah, they they were certainly portraying a certain image out there. Yeah, I mean there's no one. I mean we're talking here 20/16/2017 Even then trying to live off of 1 wage for a family, you know it's pretty difficult. I mean, I can't imagine sitting there going, oh, it's sweet. The wife's business is going to pay for all of us to live this life business, the life of. $600,000 in debt.

27:58 Yeah, and I, I can't. You'd hope. You'd hope that eventually that might. Be the case. But you can't just pretend like that's happening before it's. Actually happening, but they're hard work like you know you you've got to put in what you know you get out of it it's. A7 day a week, like she was working in retail in a major shopping centre. Yeah, that side of town like that, that's, that's hard. Yeah, yeah. That's a lot of hours. That's a lot of people. Yeah, but I guess the biggest crack really showed for Boris at a second.

28:32 Oh God, I can't speak press conference, conference in front of the media then on July 14th. So this is really interesting. So Patricia Gray, who was Karen's aunt, came forward. And so she was the one out the front speaking. And Boris and Sarah were standing behind her during this one. And so the idea was to, again, just put that call out, you know, if anyone knows anything or said anything, come forward, You know, And immediately a Channel 7 reporter asked the question, Boris, did you kill your wife?

29:05 And the reaction from him was pretty awful. I mean he, he, they shut it down. Very quickly well, he he the look on his face is really interesting because he kind of looks stunned yes and then he is like his mouth looks like like like puckers and the the press conference gets immediately shut down and it's. But even like the auntie's reaction, you can to me a sense there's a little bit of that she's maybe on the cusp of thinking that, yeah, Boris is part. Of kind of not been thinking. It totally, yeah, because you can sense she even says like she goes, oh, I think that's an inappropriate question.

29:49 But her reaction isn't no, no, no, no. Like it's not an immediate defence. Do you know what I mean? It was a more of a oh. Being prepped on how to answer. This yeah, yeah. And I want to say get on to it. Like, yeah, I feel like that. She was definitely thinking already. Look. You know, I guess the police investigate those closest to missing people, slash murder victims because it's often the people closest to you that will perpetrate these types of crimes. Yeah. So, you know, it's, it's understandable that Boris was interviewed in those early days and the police had their suspicions.

30:29 The police aren't idiots. They know what they're looking for and they know the kinds of behaviours that they're looking for. And I feel like Boris kind of played right into them right from the get go. Yeah. And surely the family would have had an A similar sentiment, although you probably would never want to believe the worst of your family members. So hard because the fact of the matter is, even though you're thinking it and going, Oh my God, I think he would have done it. The cops have got to still build their case.

30:58 Even though you think that that that's you're like you're on the money and you're like, he definitely did it. You've got to have the evidence to actually get him to trial. But if you think about like Karen's family and you think, OK, her sister, her auntie, whatever, you wouldn't want to believe that her husband had done that to her because that's just so close and so difficult and that would blow. I mean the fact that Karen was missing and at this point presumed deceased. Well, I mean, that's the thing they're first grappling with, isn't it?

31:32 It's that first idea of hey, this isn't looking good, that she's gonna turn up alive. For that then to, for you then to be like, Oh my God, this is potentially at the hand of our family member. Yeah. The husband that she's brought into our family. Yeah, that would be. Oh my God. I can't even imagine I. Can't even. No, no, no. Yeah, it's. I think that it was about this point, though, where Vasco inserts him into himself, into this, which is Boris's brother. Vasco Ristevski comes out at this point and says, oh, it's all right, people, it's OK, everyone, it's all right.

32:13 She's alive. She's just in China. She's she's got no self a fake passport. So don't worry about it. Don't worry about it. It's cool. Like the fact that she hasn't used her actual passport. Don't worry. No, because it's a fake one. She's just living up in China. Yeah, 'cause I mean, I know that I'd be able to go and get a fake passport tomorrow. What, Like, Nope, Nope. Not everyone knows how to do that, I don't think. Yeah, Vasco, that's just, I mean, most people don't know how or where or wouldn't literally wouldn't do that.

32:42 No. So the fact that for him that was like, oh, that's an easy 10 know exactly what's happened. So she's. Just all. Good babes. I'm supposed to try her on a on a fake passport. He's quite the character he. Is, but he comes, he comes back into the the picture a little bit later on with some interesting stuff too, so. Yeah, just, yeah, just real quick, just real quick on his little fake passport. Oh yeah, the police obviously looked into it. There was literally nothing to suggest that that had happened.

33:13 No, she'd also never used a cent of money out of there. She'd withdrawn no money, no cash from their account. She'd used no credit card, no bank card. She hadn't used her Medicare card. So she hadn't been to a doctor, she hadn't attended a hospital, nothing. There was no digital footprint for this woman. Other than the mobile phone tracking, yeah. So that was where. So at this point, they'd sort of worked that the mobile phone had been pinging off of a tower towards the Mastodon Mount Mastodon. Yeah.

33:48 So this was along the colder freeway, and it had sort of that they were able to track Boris and Karen's phones going a certain distance up the colder freeway towards the Macedon Ranges. Yeah. And Boris's phone was turned off in about 2425 minutes into that trip. That's right. But Karen's phone stayed on for longer. It was turned off eventually. About two hours, right? Yeah, yeah. So they were basically, they knew that Boris was either had either been with Karen on this trip or you know that. But the phone was definitely in, you know, in that trip.

34:24 So I think I'm trying to remember when they released, it was a bit further on when they released that footage of the car. I remember it being on the news really predominantly where they got some CCTV footage as well of the the black Mercedes driving along New Digger's Rest I think it was. Yeah, it was New Digger's Rest. They actually didn't release that footage until after her body was found in 2017. In Feb of 2017 so. They were hunting for anything like which because they were following the route of like obviously like thinking, OK, this is where the mobile phones are kind of pinging from towers.

34:58 They can only pick up so much, you know, information in terms of where the that they actually are. It's only a direction that they're heading really. Mm hmm. So I guess then they would have been hunting every CCTV with, you know, on all the roads and things to try and find, see if they can spot a car that looks familiar. But yeah. I wonder what the difference is between 2017 CCTV slash dash cams and 2024. I feel like every car on the road now has a dash Cam. Yeah, I think there's a lot more again now than they would have been then.

35:27 Yeah. For sure. And it's we're not that far removed from it. It's what is it, seven years? Yeah, it's not that that long ago, but I think you'd still find there'd been increased for sure and even just the quality of the video that you'd get. Exactly. I just feel like they'd be the only thing that might have hindered it was the passage of time. Yeah. So like, we've got dash cams in our cars and I think there's like a rolling 48 hours or something. Or maybe, maybe a rolling 96 hours actually, but then it just records over, over same.

36:01 Yeah, it doesn't. Go to the cloud kind of thing or anything. I don't. Yeah. Pay extra, maybe. Yeah, maybe. I don't think so. So like, we've got it for if, you know, we're in an accident or someone hits that car or something, you can press a button. If you press a button on it, it'll record. Record it. Yeah, right. That forever yeah but so you know maybe timing would have played a part in this if if there were more dash cams if there were dash cams around potentially yeah maybe but the fact that they were able to get this CCTV many many months later makes me think that they probably had it a lot earlier than.

36:33 I think so. I think that they were what? They then. Releasing things when it was suited to them to get the information they needed for sure. Yeah. So basically they started looking and actually started like doing full searches of areas in that northern N region sort of to learn valley started looking bushland. They actually drained some dams and scoured all the bushland and grasslands in a particular area where they thought maybe could be a potential area for her body. However, it wasn't until February 20th, 2017 so that they actually found Karen's body.

37:08 There were a couple of guys working out in the Mount Macedon region. Yep, couple of brothers they were, they were tapping a pine tree or something like that, doing something like about out in the in the in the area and kind of research. Or something called. They were. They were. They were horticultural. Yeah, people, I. Don't know, like doing stuff with trees? They were, they were sort of more off the beaten track than, yes, a normal day Walker, sort of, you know, a day hiker. Yeah, the city might be.

37:38 That's it, Yeah. And so they were actually, they was got, they got this waft of a smell, which was like, what the hell is that? Like, you know, And so they started looking around to sort of see what this smell was and unfortunately came across some remains that we're sort of poking out of the ground near these trees that were laying 2 trees that sort of fallen near each other and creating this kind of V shape. And there was a skull, I believe, and a foot that was sort of coming out of the ground, which obviously, you know, animals had sort of disrupted the scene a little bit as well.

38:11 And so, yeah, they called the police in pretty quickly. Took an extra day obviously to then actually confirm that unfortunately that they it was the remains of Karen Restevsky found in Mount Macedon. Her body was incredibly decomposed at the time, so I think it was 8 months following her disappearance that her body was found. So it had been out in, you know, sort of over summer. Animals had certainly played a part in disturbing the remains, and when the autopsy was done, her body was so badly decomposed that they were actually unable to establish A cause of death.

38:55 So they looked at whether or not she was potentially strangled or shot or stabbed or, you know, lots of, lots of. Head injury or something or yeah. But nothing was conclusive. So I guess the the police at the time had sort of been putting together a narrative of what they thought had happened on the day and the inference from them was that an altercation had happened in the home following an argument about the money. They kind of thought that that was probably very likely, and something had come about that meant Karen met an untimely end.

39:37 So there were a couple of different ways they sort of thought that might have happened. They thought maybe Boris had pushed her and she'd fallen and hit her head on something and that had that had caused her death or that he'd actually strangled her. Yeah. The police forensically investigated the house. At the point that they'd found Karen's body, they were able to obtain a warrant to search lots and lots of different things in the house. So not only looking for forensic evidence, but they were also able to seize laptops and other digital devices.

40:13 They were. They basically tore the house apart and checked everything. They did not find any blood or any microscopic particles of any kind in terms of DNA in that house. So I think at that point the police were pretty satisfied that Boris had probably strangled her. Now we know because we're true crime buffs or true crime best two crime besties, that generally speaking, if somebody has been strangled, their hyoid bone has been damaged. Yeah. And that was certainly looked at upon autopsy. But her hyoid bone had been like, removed or like it had been dislodged.

40:56 Yeah. But yeah, they just couldn't rule out whether or not that had happened during due to like animals in the area or, yeah, or whether that had happened in, you know, in the in, Yeah. To this day, Boris hasn't come forward with how Karen's murder happened, so we actually don't know her. Her autopsy report to this day states that her cause of death is unknown or it's it's. What do they do? But as a foul play of sorts. But yeah. But it's yeah. There was no no conclusive evidence to support to support A cause of death.

41:35 Yeah, So in amongst all of this of, you know, Karen's body being found and also at that time, pretty much pretty soon after that, the cops really ramped up their focus on Boris. And lo and behold, at this point, his step his his son Karen's stepson Anthony Ricard, steps into the picture and out of nowhere decides to throw a spanner in the works and says, well, Karen was and I were having an affair like. We were doing it. Yeah, yeah, since I was living with them when I was a teenager. We were having an affair and our plan was always to run off together when she was 21, when when Sarah was 21.

42:19 Yep. And and that this was, you know, all because of the relationship between him and and Karen, that that's probably why this happened to her. Now there is literally 0 evidence, Yeah, every single person, including Boris, yeah, including Sarah, every single person who is involved in this story says that that is absolutely, unequivocally not true. These guys. Are fucking fruit. Oh, he's a quite an interesting character. I mean, he's clearly had an interesting childhood by the sounds of things. Yeah, I mean, when it even got to court with this case.

42:59 Like he was meant to give evidence at the at the court hearing. His house was raided the day before. He was refusing to give evidence at the trial, but he was actually being the house has been raided for actually for other reasons. He was arrested for hiding from the police to avoid to give evidence but also for drug charges as well as that as other things. So he clearly had a bit of a rap sheet of his own and a bit bit odd. He was just a bit odd. Incredibly odd. Yeah, yeah. He, I mean, he ended up, did he go to prison?

43:35 Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, he had his own shit going on and he obviously wasn't the most upstanding member of society. Oh no, because that's the thing he does. That was right. There was also there was the drugs that he was being he he there was a warrant out for his arrest 1st and drugs as well as a breach of an Ivo as well. So. That's right. Or you can throw him in jail and. Yeah, so clearly apple don't fall far too fall far from the tree. Unfortunately, I don't think really, to be honest. So yeah, he was an interested character.

44:05 My favorite part about him, though, when he came into this story was that he was determined. He he was like, you know, that his dad did this, which is not often that you have the kid coming out, you know, going It's my dad. He did completely the. Opposite Dad did not do. This No. So, yeah, So Anthony came out and he said I knew that he did it like as soon as I saw him on that first media release, right? He goes, I saw it in his eyes, one eye. Shitty himself and the other one, the little like a little Terminator.

44:30 I knew he did it. One eye shitting himself the. Other one like the little Terminator. Oh. Mate, mate. OK. Yeah, So interesting character just to throw in there at that point when everyone's reeling from stuff. So gotta love that. Yeah. So then at this point, obviously, yeah, they started ramping up looking at Boris, but they get to the point of they get to have a funeral for Karen, which I just think that this is utterly gross. Oh, it's. So gross. Boris was obviously he still wasn't arrested or anything.

45:06 It was without just getting closer and closer to getting him, but he hadn't been arrested yet. So he was at the funeral and he carried her. He was one of the pallbearers for her coffin, carried it out of the church. And he was just filmed by, I mean, obviously media were further far away, but from a distance, they filmed him just putting on this show of, you know, emotion. He was the grieving husband, he was bawling his eyes out. He was a pallbearer at the front, so he was one of the front on one.

45:39 Side and her. Brother on the other and her brother says now that he knew at that point that Boris had done it and he had to go along with it because at that point he hadn't been arrested. Can you imagine? Oh, that'd be awful. I can't even like I just. That would just be dreadful. Just even to this day that would give you the absolute shits that he was there grieving. Like you don't get the right. To grieve. He wasn't grieving, no, he was just putting it on for show. And Sarah bought it hook, line and sinker.

46:14 Their daughter, she believed her dad from, well, obviously from the minute she asked him where her mom was on the day that she went missing. It's, it's pretty, pretty horrific. About coming up to a year after Karen's disappearance, Vasco makes another little appearance in this story. Do you know about this? Yeah. Oh, this is this is like my favorite. So what was it a Channel 7 show? Was it Channel 9? I can't remember now. Might have been I. Think it was Channel 9. I think it was Current affair. Current Affair.

46:54 No, you were. It was absolutely A Current affair. Yeah, yeah, A Current affair. We're doing a story like sort of updating everyone on what had been going on and whatever. And so they were out at the site where Karen's body was found with an expert, the gorgeous. Oh my God. Charlie Bezina, now he's an ex homicide detective with Victoria Police and he is Meg and I love him, but I have to say Meg, this is a bit of a tangent. I wanna go for. I love a tangent. My mum, My mum loves him more than we do.

47:26 No, she loves Ron. No. Well, OK, So no. I was telling mum about this case and I was telling her that, you know, Charlie makes a bit of an appearance in this in this episode when I was researching. I'm like, don't worry, I'll mention him. She's like, good. And I was like, oh, but I know he's, you know, he's not your favorite. Ron's your favorite. Yeah. Ron Iddles our our other amazing esteemed ex Victorian homicide detective. And she's like, actually, no, I actually feel like she's like, I think, I think CC's my #1.

48:02 No, he can't be. I know I might have seen her. Drool over Ron like. But she also, like she's pretty, goes a bit weak at the knees for Charlie too. No, but see, no, the wrong thing makes sense to me entirely. Like whereas Charlie for me doesn't make as much sense because Ron looks like your dad. He does he Ron actually does look like my dad. There's a real resemblance there. So I'm, I'm shocked, Lynn, I'm shocked. But there you go. Sorry that. Well, I can't argue with her because I I think Charlie was in is amazing too.

48:30 But they're both. Ron all the way, Yeah. We've seen them both talk live and they are both incredible human beings. And thank God we had them in Victoria poll because their expertise is certainly informed. And you know, Ron's conviction rate is like insane. Yeah, amazing. He they they are incredible detectives and they still consult on cases to this day. Which is what? What he was out there. Charlie was out there doing. So he. Was, you know, doing a media piece about Karen's, you know, what was upcoming to be the anniversary of Karen's disappearance.

49:07 And while they're there, who pops up? Our mate. Our mate Vasco walks. Out of the Bush. Walks out of the Bush while they're filming and he is absolutely caught unaware. Now what the fuck was he doing in the Bush on a random day? Not on the actual anniversary. It was a few weeks before, Yeah. What was he doing out there? He shot himself. I told that much. That's all the video the. Footage of it is so freaking goal. Yeah, that guy. I mean, what on earth? The only. I don't even know if I'm gonna wrap my head around it in this way, but to me, this screams guilt from Boris.

49:45 Even in that to me, he's confessed to his brother what he's done. Yep. And the brothers potentially headed out there because this is where Charlie's damn good at what he does. But the he's gone out there, I reckon to just check if there's anything out, any other evidence left that will, that cops could find to link his brother to this. Because Charlie said quoted on the on the media thing saying that he could say that's that there'd been somebody digging around the area and he wouldn't couldn't completely rule out that it wasn't animals.

50:17 But he could certainly see that there'd been some scratchings around the areas and some digging happening in the vicinity of where her body had been found. So it's just to me, he was Charlie Bezina was on to it. He reckons that I think he really does think that Vasco was out there double checking to make sure there wasn't something else that could be found to link his brother up to this. So. Do you think Vasco was involved? I don't know about involved, but certainly aware and yeah, and I think I reckon his brother probably confessed to him what happened.

50:51 I think his brother was trying to, you know, though, he was thinking he'd go and protect his brother and go and check the scene. Yeah, but but why? Like to me it just seemed so bizarre that he did it like on that day as in it's just it was a random day there was. The media that just happened to be out there on that. Day there was nothing. It wasn't the anniversary date, but even it was. Wouldn't you just steer clear like, I don't know. Absolutely I. Just can't. But you know what they say? They say that often murderers who dispose of bodies or dispose of evidence will go back and visit the site.

51:28 Yeah. So that's. That's creepiest. That's, I don't know what the psychology is behind that, but it's like, is it that they're checking to make sure everything's just so are they? Is it like a form? Of body wasn't there anymore. No, no, it had been removed, obviously. Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. But yeah, but they were closing in pretty good on Boris with, I mean, this is sort of, I mean, that doesn't say anything that they can get on him in terms of evidence, I don't think, but. No, but it certainly paints.

51:54 It paints a picture. Just picture. However, something else that was very strong evidence that they were able to bring to trial, it was something that was happened, happened a few months after her body was found. They didn't release the exact location. Whereas by the time Fasco did go out, he knew where the exact location was. But to the public, it had not been released exactly where this location was. And a witness had come forward who had seen a black Mercedes in a particular location and a man standing next to that vehicle holding a shovel.

52:31 Yeah. Who fitted a description of Boris? So the fact that this guy was able to pinpoint a location that was very close to where the body was eventually was found, but without knowing where that location was at that point. This was a very strong witness that they were able to then pretty much this was the the nail in the coffin for for Boris that they were like, this is pretty big that we can go in and and nab him. Yeah. The other bit of evidence that they had found also was when they able to do the search of the house, they did find on iPad some pretty suspicious searches that had been taken on there, including how police trace phones, how to delete mobile phone data and how to police detect blood.

53:15 So yeah, he'd been someone, someone in the house, which I guess could have been Sarah. Also. Somebody was doing some searches on that iPad in that house. So those sort of bits of evidence were enough for the cops to, I think at that point, go in and arrest Boris. I think that was 10 months after they had found the body. Is that about right? Yeah. So I guess it's worth noting that so. Boris was actually. Arrested on the 13th of December in 2017 and charged with murder. He appeared that morning, so he was arrested at like 7:00 in the morning.

53:53 He appeared that morning at 10:00 at the Melbourne Magistrates Court and he entered a plea of not guilty. He was remanded in custody then with a court date of April the 18th set. So this is what 2017 that happened late 2017, 2018 comes along and on the 17th of July there's a two week committal hearing to decide whether the murder charge will stick or not. And this is when all of the financial stuff came out. So I believe they'd sent the iPad and the laptop over to the States for forensic analysis like so they could look, they had a forensic accountant look into exactly where the book stood because of course they couldn't get a like any solid picture from Boris as to where things were.

54:48 And this is where the that over $1 million worth of debt was like debt in terms of the business and their personal debts combined was revealed. So at that point, like, you know, the police thought, well, there's also a financial motive potentially here. Yeah. On the 3rd of August he was committed to stand trial for murder and on the 7th of August they set that trial date for March of 2019. And at the point the justice said that the the the court hearing, the criminal hearing would probably last about four to five weeks.

55:25 Can you imagine how taxing that would be on Sarah? Oh God, yeah. Like, I mean, I, I, it's hard because I have such an opinion on where she heads at. And because I can't, I can't understand her thinking. Yeah. So we can get to that a little bit more maybe after this, because I think that warrants a conversation in and of itself. Yeah. Yeah. On the 13th of March of the following year, the justice ruled that post offence conduct could not be used to prove murderous intent. So the justice was Christopher Beale.

56:07 He was very measured in his responses, and he sounds like he's an incredible judge. And he basically said that Boris's behavior after Karen's murder, now known to be murder, cannot be used as evidence against him in a trial. But that's kind of a huge amount of the prosecution's case. Yeah, except for the witness. They of course, they had. But yeah, they had the witness. They obviously had her body, which didn't actually show that much in terms of evidence aside from the fact that her body was obviously found in an area where his mobile phone had been found.

56:56 And then as you said, with that witness, with his car and the shovel and the person that, you know, they've described who, you know, couldn't, almost couldn't not be borrowed. Yeah. But yeah, I think that was a bit of a blow for the DPP. I think so. I think their evidence was somewhat, it was too circumstantial. It was, you know, there was a little bit of a little bit of leniency there. I guess that could be, you know, there could be a shadow of doubt, I guess. Yeah, I guess there's no reason that a circumstantial case can't win, no, in terms of of prosecution, but it is more difficult and it yeah, it it's certainly something that would have been taken into consideration.

57:40 So I think at this point a manslaughter charge was offered to Boris and he declined to that originally. But then was it two or three days? It was pretty close. It was very close. Yeah. I think he's cut 2 days. Before days, yeah, before we was set to go to trial. He. He. Backflipped. Yeah. Back to say guilty to manslaughter, yeah, which is it was interesting in itself because up until that point he'd been absolutely declaring that he was an innocent man and had no he still. Says he's not guilty. He's just basically saying, well, I see there's some evidence against me and I think I'd be convicted if it went to trial.

58:17 Yeah, which is what he's sort of pretty much with all like holds to this day that. Yeah, but he's, yeah, he's pled guilty to manslaughter and then the sentence. Would you plead guilty to manslaughter if you? Had there's no way in hell if I hadn't done it, why would you do that freaking way? No, no, I'd. I'd fight it to. The fight to death, Absolutely. No. So I mean, I, yeah, I think that the, I think the evidence was reasonable enough that it was, it was quite possible that he would have been convicted of that.

58:46 So I think that, yeah, he's, he's basically, I think his lawyers given him the, you know, duty. This is your only way out here. So yeah, he's he's taken the manslaughter and then sentencing has occurred, which was very interesting. So when we get to sentencing, obviously victim impact statements usually get read. And obviously there was, you know, there was her brother and her sister, her her auntie, all these sorts of people who gave victim impact statements. And so did, yeah, but so did Sarah.

59:20 And Sarah's victim impact statement was basic was a character reference for her father rather than really a victim impact statement of about her mum. There was there was no mention really of her mum or the impact of the loss of her mum. Now this is a little, this is a little, I say little, but she's a 21 year old woman. Yep, she's got her entire life ahead of her. She has potentially a wedding or potentially children, other things that, you know, she would want her mum around for because as she states, they were incredibly close.

59:56 The impact of that was not noted to the court and it wasn't something that, yeah, she brought put forward and her. Impact statement or character reference as it turned out to be, would have carried the most weight. She was the most impacted by this, absolutely. So she basically said in her in her character reference how amazing her dad is, how he's. Having father misses his, misses her mom. Loved, loves, loves her mom. And she believes it. She fully, fully believes it now. Yeah, please go and watch the 60 Minutes interview with Liz Hayes.

1:00:42 Love Liz Hayes. It's on YouTube. Go and have a look at it, because this episode I think is incredibly telling about Sarah's state of mind and her position in all of this and how well Boris is basically controlling her from prison. Yep, this is a, it's a clear case of coercive control. And if you don't know what that is and or how to spot it, watch that interview because that is the result of coercion control 100%, no question in my mind. No, but just before we get to that, so the sentencing, yeah, we'll jump, we'll go back and go into that bit more.

1:01:27 But the sentencing occurred. So, so basically based on her character reference for her dad and so much weight was put on that by the judge. He read out his statement at the end of the which they have to do like to give the sentence. He has to read a hell of a lot to justify why he's giving the sentence that he's giving. And in that he, you know, he spoke about the horrific stuff that Boris has done and how the fact that he hasn't still come forward if he's, you know, saying he's guilty, but he hasn't actually told us what happened, you know, and all that.

1:01:55 And it was very measured, very, but also very damning that what he said. And then he got to the end of that to say what the actual sentence was and he based that and weighted very heavily what Sarah said and gave him all of nine years maximum with six years with parole, which is just. Atrocious. 6 years non parole. Six years non parole. Sorry. Yeah. So he, I mean, it could have been a maximum of 20 years. So nine years is just pitiful. And the fact is that that becomes case law. So basically there's an if there's another case of, you know, an intimate partner murdering his wife or girlfriend or something, then that this this can then be brought forward as the standard, the precedent, you know, And so that can then be used.

1:02:41 And then all of a sudden, all of those sorts of cases start getting less and less time for these sentences. It's disgusting. It's really. Disgusting. There was some revolting shit on social media about this too. Where these hideous men were writing things like Oh well if I'm only going to get 6 years I might as well knock her off now. Yeah, yeah. And. I'll be out in six years or whatever. It's just disgusting and it's not funny and it's there is nothing OK about making. I'm not even going to say jokes, but they think it's funny.

1:03:11 I don't know. It's it's absolutely horrible. Yeah. So the prosecution actually appealed the sentence and it went to the appellate court and they were able to add on. Was it 4? Additional years. So he ended up still woefully inadequate. Absolutely. So, yeah, but so 10 years non parole, 13 as a maximum. So at this stage, he's looking at being released in 2027 at the age of 63. I mean, so he's. Still got a lot of life ahead of him. 63 or man, I mean, have you come out and still, you know, do this to another woman, you know, have another partner, have another child.

1:03:49 Even at 63, I wouldn't put it past him. You know, who knows he's he's still going to come out as a fairly young man. And I really, I don't know. I think that's pretty, pretty poor for her life and what has been taken from her and what has been taken from Sarah, as much as she doesn't know that and how to think and believe any of things going on, it's just disgusting. Oh it's it's horrible, yeah. Should we get into get into that now about the Sarah's side of. Things. I think so. I was, you know, we've had, we've had this discussion about, about coercive control and the way that it's incredibly impactful and you've got some really good insights.

1:04:33 And I know you've got, you've got some stuff that you want to say about this. Before we get into sort of the nitty gritty of it. I think it's really worth noting that if any of the things that we're about to discuss are impacting you in any way, there are a lot of resources available. So please reach out. So in Australia, there's 1800 Respect, which you can call it anytime. We've got Orange Door, which you can go to for, for resources as well. And we can leave those links in our show notes too. But please know that if this is something, if you identify with any of the things that we're about to discuss, you know, please know that there are organizations that you can reach out to to support you through this in the immediate instance and longer term too.

1:05:25 Yeah, for sure. Yeah. So look, that interview with Sarah is absolutely heartbreaking. There's not no other way to look at it. I mean, you watch her, she's a shell of a person. I mean, I actually noted when I was watching it that she's 24 in that interview and she appears very immature. And again, that's that result of that coercion and control, you know, that he has made her not grow enough like and become. I mean, I know other women who friends of mine who have lost parents, you know, at young ages, not in these sorts of circumstances, yes, But you know, it makes them grow up a lot faster because they've lost that parent.

1:06:10 They, you know, step into those roles and those adult roles, you know, very easily and quickly. She hasn't done that. She seemed still very quite immature. She. Talks to her dad in prison twice a day. Yeah. She visits him, I think, weekly. Yeah. She's still very much beholden to him. And in the interview with Liz Hayes, she's asked a lot of direct questions about whether she thinks things have happened or like what she thinks has happened or things about her dad being involved in the murder of her mum.

1:06:42 And she never answers a question directly. I feel like you can really tell. She's been coached in what to say. And Liz Hayes absolutely thinks the same thing. You can tell by the way she sort of pursues the questions and also by the fact that she gets that expert to review some of the interviews. Yeah, Laura Richards, who views it. Yeah, she's interesting. She's. Awesome. Yeah, so she's a like a behaviourist. She profiles and things like that. She's but she's worked on a lot of DV cases. She was very impressive in her work that she's done.

1:07:16 And she's watched this case out of interest more than anything from the get go. It's in her field. But she watched that interview that Liz Hayes did back with her. And something that really stood out was how Sarah described her dad as charismatic. And I just can't with that because charismatic traits are used to manipulate people. That's not a positive trait to have. Like, you know, if you're charming someone, you're manipulating them. You are putting a spell. Over them. And, like, who would describe their dad as charismatic?

1:07:54 Yeah, Like, there are 1000 different words I can think to describe my dad. Yeah. None of them would be charismatic because I know him on such a different level. You might describe some, I don't know, person you might meet randomly and quickly. Yeah. Oh, yeah, They were really charismatic. They sort of engaged me very quickly. You don't. I don't. I just don't think the word charismatic is something you would use to describe somebody you know really well. Yeah, same. I, I really, I just find that really interesting.

1:08:26 She's she was, she found that really wrong, the way that that came across. But the fact that she she doesn't actually see that her dad has taken her mom away from her and that she should be the voice for her mum and now, but what Boris has done is remove that from her life. So I mean, I worry that when Boris comes out of jail and is in her life and physically as well as, you know, in these, you know, over the phones and things like that, she's communicating with him when she's actually physically there as well.

1:08:59 That her mum becomes non existent in her life entirely because she's not allowed, won't be allowed to speak about her. No, like it would be so awkward to discuss with her murderer. You know about nice things about her. Mum, I feel like they've never discussed it. Like even early on they they just don't talk about her. No, it's really odd. And I they. Just kind of pretended like it didn't happen or something, like it's horrible. Yeah, I mean, I found that interview to watch was so frustrating. I mean, I was yelling at the scream.

1:09:29 Or just shake her and just go sweetheart, like you're, it's OK. You're allowed to be angry at your dad and you're allowed to have emotions and you know and want your mum back. But is she? She's not. She's not. No, she's. Not allowed. She he has got her so under his spell that she is just toeing the party line. She is spreading all the shit that he sprouts to her. She's like a little parrot fit for him, I think because absolutely she actually and. Look, she's probably. Protecting herself in a certain way as well.

1:10:03 Yeah. But if she took a minute and, or, you know, a bit of time and, and really reflected on what happened, she's a really intelligent girl. There's, you know, I'm sure she would come to the conclusion and, and what has now been proven to be and, you know, he's been convicted of her manslaughter. So, you know, he killed her. She would surely come to the same conclusion. It's like, it's like in that interview, she has not allowed herself to even think about it. No, she's not because, well, the fact is like when in those situations, the person who's being abused, you learn I guess to it's the path of least resistance.

1:10:42 So she's learnt that she needs to be on his side because being not on his side, well, that gets you killed. Wow. You know, so and then not that she will automatically compute that and think that, but there's a surface level understanding of that, that it's not safe for her to stand up for herself or for her mum. It's not safe. She's not safe. I think unfortunately, like there's new laws here in Australia now over coercive control, coercive control, but but however those those laws are only for intimate partner.

1:11:19 So unfortunately still those laws haven't gone far enough because this is coercive control being done to still a family member. You know, it's male to female, you know, father daughter, but it's not intimate partner. So therefore those laws won't apply. But I don't think that this man should be allowed out and released to basically be in her life now, potentially causing the same sorts of damage to her life that he quite clearly caused for Karen. I know that there was an article I was reading about how he's been moved from one jail to another, and it was being queried as to why, which they don't answer with those questions, why prisoners have been moved.

1:11:58 But they did allude to the fact that it was most likely due to good behaviour and the fact that he was, you know, being moving forward towards reform. And it's like, hang on a second, this guy ain't moving even isn't not reforming. He's not, he's not learning from these things, no. He he still hasn't told the police or anyone no what actually happened that day. No, hasn't hasn't come out with that at all. I mean as you were saying before, quite. It's most likely this guy strangled her since there was no blood found.

1:12:33 I mean, if he was, if there was an accident, wouldn't you think he would just have come forward and said, right, Yeah, it's man. So. Because. I pushed her. Oh. My God. Well, you would do that some help, but let's say worst case scenario, he's done gone through the process and he's got rid of her body like you know, but then, you know, you've been caught. You fess up and you say, yeah, I pushed her. She fell. I didn't know what to do. I've I've you know, that's when I went and took her body and whatever.

1:12:58 And that was the wrong thing to do. But there's a somewhat a little layer of, you know, empathy that you can have for that person and potentially there's, you know, a possibility for reform and all those sorts of things. But this guy's next level, I reckon. And to me, he is someone who has come up and he has strangled because that's full on intent to kill. That's not now manslaughter. That is first degree murder. Yeah, I so I, I strongly believe that he's actually strangled or otherwise he would have admitted anything else that went on.

1:13:27 Agreed. Is awful. But yeah, just getting into sort of the coercive control stuff a little bit that look, the statistics are horrific here in Australia. They're horrific across the world. They haven't changed much over the last 10 years. Basically the statistics have remained pretty pretty much the same. They go up and down in various places at different times, but as a whole, across the whole world, they are shit house for women. Just here in Australia, 74 women were killed in 2023 and by April 27th, which is the latest statistic I could find for 2024, already 32 women had been killed.

1:14:07 Across the world, on average, a woman is killed every 11 minutes by a family member. Like that's not just, that's not every like this isn't just talking about women being killed. This is women killed by intimate partner or other family member. So the statistics are absolutely horrific. They did increase on average worldwide by about 11% over COVID too, which says a lot. So the more time a woman spends in her home, the more time she's in, more chance she's in danger, which is just. Absolutely wrong.

1:14:37 Terrific. I know Indigenous women in Australia are three times more likely to be murdered at the hands of an intimate partner as well. Like it's just. Yeah, yeah, minorities are even more impacted in terms of these sorts of things as well, which is just horrific. So just to sort of put a bit, you know, we want to make sure that these things aren't don't happen. We want to put a stop to them. And obviously they say there's laws in Australia now around coercive control as well as obviously physical abuse.

1:15:05 It can be also emotional abuse and all other aspects. So if you're not sure what coercive control even is, these are just 12 signs of coercive control from Relationships Australia 1 being being isolated from your support system, which is clearly what's happened to Sarah in this situation. Monitoring your activity throughout the day, so keeping track of you, which could be through devices or it could be literally phone calls to you, texting you, where are you when you're coming home, why aren't you home yet, Those sorts of things.

1:15:35 That is coercive control denying you freedom and autonomy, which again, Sarah's being denied the freedom to grieve her mum and also defend her mum and be pissed at the person who's taken that from her. Gas lighting is horrendous. Unfortunately the word gets a bit overused these days but gas lighting is horrific to experience. It's basically when someone is you are telling them this is what happened, explaining it to them and then telling you that's not what happened, that's not how it happened. It's real manipulation and it's horrible name Name calling and severe, severe criticism is also coercive control, limiting access to money and controlling finances.

1:16:19 Financial abuse is is horrendous. And with any of these, you don't need to have all these 12 happening to you for you to be in a coercive control relationship. It can be one of these and it is bad enough and you need to be getting out of that relationship

1:16:35 coercing you or to take they take care of to take care of all the domestic duties in the household. They are not all female duties. Every, you know, household is it should be a team, everyone pitching in, everyone doing what they need to do in the household to take part. Turning your children against you, which would just be horrible. And using belittling you in front of your children or weaponizing the children against you. Or in particular sort of or #12 actually gets I jumped down to that one, sort of threatening your children or your pets in front of you.

1:17:08 So basically using them as like weapons in that situation, controlling aspects of your health or your body. So not allowing you to get to medical attention or exercising or getting the right amount of sleep that you need, you know, making you get up and get to the kids earlier within the other person. That's it's all not OK. Making sure that you're not spending too much time in the bathroom, heaven forbid, have a shower and have some time for yourself in there even like whatever yeah that's controlling you in that way is not OK Final one, regulating your sexual relationships.

1:17:41 So for example, demands about the amount of times you engage in sex or the kinds of activities that you engage in. So as I say it doesn't have to be all 12, although these are just 12 signs of coercive control and any of those are wrong, wrong, wrong. So please call 1800 respect if you are experiencing any of those or as here in Australia, if you're feeling unsafe, call 000. So I just want to make sure that we have everyone understanding that this those sorts of behaviors are not OK. And I really in this situation, we don't want any more women losing their lives and the more we can do to protect each other.

1:18:20 Make sure that you call it out if you see these behaviors. So if someone who stands by and watches these behaviors happen is just as culpable as the person who is infiltrating them. So everyone, let's look out for each other. If you call it out, the person experiencing it knows it's wrong too, and they can then feel confident to be able to step up. And leave absolutely, absolutely. If you're not in Australia, if you're one of our listeners who live internationally, you can Google supports in your local in your, in your country.

1:18:55 And please seek support, find a friend, find a family member, somebody who's going to help you if you need that, that support and help. Or, you know, if, as Meg said, if the if the situation's incredibly volatile, you'll, your local police need to be there and, and assist you through that. And they're getting better and better at being able to spot these things too. They're trained better these days so you can reach out. Don't feel you can't. Yeah, absolutely. That's a pretty heavy note to end it on.

1:19:28 Sorry about that. No, I think it's incredibly important. Thank you so much for bringing that to the podcast because I think it is incredibly important and it is something that isn't spoken about openly enough, but something that absolutely needs to be. And the fact that, you know, we've got a little more context now around what coercive control is that you can maybe spot that within somebody's relationship. You might be able to have that little chat with, with a girlfriend or a family member on the side and say, hey, I've just noticed this.

1:20:00 Let's how can I help you? And it might not be the first time you have that conversation with the person that they, they reach out and ask for your help or, or accept the help that you're offering, but persist with it because it's incredibly important. Yeah. On that note, I well. I also just wanted to add, sorry, just quickly, that like, yes, cameras. Jeffsky, I honestly believe was a victim of domestic violence and quite possibly coercive control. But also she was a very beautiful person who was incredibly caring.

1:20:30 And that's how she needs to be remembered, even if her daughter can't do it for her. She was someone who gave her time and her to charity. She, you know, made clothing for people who had had mastectomies during breast cancer and donated them to to women to wear for special events and things. So I think that she just needs to be remembered as an absolutely incredible person as well. So agreed. Agreed. Like all accounts from everybody who knew her, she was an incredible human being and you know the world is the worst place without her here.

1:21:07 For sure. Yeah. All right, we'll leave it at that. Absolutely. Well, next week we're actually talking about Elizabeth Holmes, so it's quite, quite a different. Yeah. Quite a different type of case, but another really interesting one for you. So stay tuned for that next Tuesday. We release episodes every Tuesday. So please come back like us in your podcasting apps, please, because it really helps, you know, if you follow us, we can get our our episodes out to more and more listeners. Meg is doing an absolutely stellar job of getting us out there on Tiktok.

1:21:47 So please again, go and follow us over on Tiktok and. Emma's trying to convince me to do more crazy stuff on Tiktok. Tell us if you want us to or not. I'm not I'm in. I'm in the camp of maybe not. I wanna do like trending stuff. Do the dancers. Yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, yes, we'll see. We'll see who wins. Go and follow us over on TikTok and see who won that argument.

1:22:19 All right. Thank you so much for joining us, everyone, and we'll see you next. Week, Absolutely. Stay curious. Crime besties.