Episode 73 - Leanne Holland

0:15 Two crime besties. We are back for 2026. 2026 Here

0:20 it is we've. Got so much to catch up on.

0:24 I know it's been forever. It's been, it feels like it's

0:27 been forever. We were just like, I feel a bit

0:29 out of touch. Yeah, I'm in a totally different

0:32 headspace this year, I think. I don't know.

0:33 So the brain's gotta click back onto crime mode and that's it.

0:37 And yeah, yeah. Well, we'll get there.

0:39 We'll get there. Absolutely.

0:41 We'll get there. Campaign might be.

0:42 Helping, definitely. We did some planning last week,

0:45 so at least we know what's coming up.

0:47 Yeah, we've got a bit a better idea of like the next month or

0:50 so, yeah. Oh, we went a bit further than

0:52 that, I think. I didn't know.

0:53 Didn't we? In my mind, Well, you know what

0:57 I think in my mind, it's until the kids go back to school.

0:59 Yeah. Which actually is only, you

1:01 know, a few weeks away. Yeah.

1:04 Yeah, something too. Soon, oh.

1:06 Not for me. Yeah, for you, of course,

1:08 because you bloody have to go back to work.

1:10 I mean, don't go back as well. Yeah, Yeah.

1:12 Don't want that. Yeah.

1:13 No. Fair enough.

1:14 No, fair enough. I go back to work on Monday.

1:16 So anyway, it is what it is. So tell me, you spent your

1:21 Christmas with your family, you went and had a nice little

1:25 loving together. How did that go?

1:27 It was great. We had so much fun.

1:29 Kids got to go on the beach on Christmas Day and it wasn't that

1:32 warm or anything, but it was fine.

1:34 They. Feel like it was 80° or

1:36 something from memory. Yeah, it wasn't too bad.

1:37 I mean, it was blue skies where we were.

1:39 You know, it was it was nice. It was, you know, we were in,

1:41 you know, pants and T-shirts kind of sort of weather.

1:43 But it wasn't, wasn't freezing, that's for sure.

1:46 Yeah. But no, we weren't going in for

1:48 a swim necessarily. But all the kids, of course,

1:50 they do as they do. But yeah, no, that was good.

1:54 It was really lovely that we all got to wake up together and do

1:56 Santa together. And yeah, the kids had a ball.

1:59 So it was really nice. And because, you know, the

2:01 varying ages of the children, it's really interesting to watch

2:04 what the older ones now, you know, kind of have had that how

2:07 that look. Towards it, yeah.

2:09 And. Also, obviously then like to the

2:10 youngest of ours that, you know, very much a believer and very

2:13 much very excited over very little things and who got who

2:17 got a couple potatoes in the mix.

2:18 So yeah, well deserved potatoes, which I love that because they

2:25 they just my kids are well, Brody when he got one one year,

2:28 you know, we just got told yes, I love potato.

2:31 It is his favorite vegetables. They make chips.

2:37 So yeah, she was very, very much at the same page.

2:39 Oh my God, it's a potato. Nay, Oh, I love it.

2:42 No, no guys, this is meant to be a punishment.

2:45 Was it actually meant to learn a lesson from there?

2:47 Yeah, I know that was the older ones trying to like do the

2:49 whole, you know, no, Zoe, that was that was a present that's

2:51 now a potato. Like you missed out on something

2:54 and just like, yeah, OK. Like couldn't like it was just

2:58 love the excitement of everything it was.

2:59 So funny. She was like all caught up.

3:01 She was probably like delighted with the presents she had

3:03 anyways. Potatoes.

3:04 Why not? Love it.

3:08 I absolutely love it. And then we've had New Year's

3:12 roll around as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

3:14 What did you do for Christmas and New Year's?

3:16 So Christmas we hosted on Christmas Eve, we have friends

3:20 and family over and it was great.

3:23 It was a really good day. Christmas Day, we're with my

3:25 mom's side of the family, which is huge, huge family, huge, huge

3:29 family. And we all still get together

3:32 and I don't think we have a house in the family anymore that

3:35 accommodates us all comfortably so.

3:38 Comfortably. I love that.

3:39 Yeah, there's gonna have to. I mean, we all squash in.

3:42 But you know, I think there might be some, I don't know,

3:44 maybe some change of foot you. Don't try and do like a full sit

3:48 down lunch or it's a full sit down.

3:49 No, you can't do, although we do do some cold meats, but some hot

3:53 meats, seafood, salads. But you gotta do a bit of a, you

3:56 know, like sit somewhere like not at the table at like a.

3:59 Well, no, we do set a table. Wow.

4:04 How do? We've got communal family

4:06 trestle tables and chairs that just get passed around to

4:08 whoever's hosting whichever event.

4:11 Yeah. And yeah, we just kind of make

4:13 do. But yeah, it's a lot.

4:15 Yeah, even just have to. I mean, it's one thing to have

4:17 the furniture, but it's nothing to have the space, so.

4:19 Yeah. And yeah, not anyone has a space

4:21 for that many people. No way.

4:23 We, I don't know, we'll see how time goes on because I think

4:26 it's, it's probably time for us to split off into our, your

4:29 immediate families on Christmas Day and.

4:32 Because it's not even like the fact of like even like adding

4:34 the adding a baby to a group like that isn't actually the

4:37 problem. It's the kids getting older and

4:39 taking up more space like. 100%, yeah.

4:42 And all of my cousins, and I've got lots of them, yeah,

4:45 everyone, pretty much, almost all of them have kids now.

4:48 And more and more kids and they're getting older.

4:51 And yeah, yeah, it's a lot. And the kids need space, you

4:54 know, they're the ones who actually need the most space.

4:56 Yeah, to run around and yeah, and all that, sort of.

4:59 Stuff it sounds sounds great, big family on Christmas Day, but

5:01 it can be absolute chaos. Yeah, yeah, it's a lot.

5:05 It's a lot, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

5:07 No, it wasn't. It was so great.

5:11 Yeah. But look, you know, I, I love

5:14 Christmas, but I was watching this meme that came up must have

5:19 been day or two after Christmas. And it was like this woman who

5:23 at the start of Christmas, she's listening to, you know, 1st of

5:25 December, listening to Christmas carols, putting up her Christmas

5:28 tree. And everything's so like really

5:30 soft focus and lovely. And she's loving it sipping a

5:33 wine. And then she walks past her

5:35 Christmas tree on the 27th of December and she's like.

5:38 Lighted on fire. And that's exactly how I felt

5:42 this year. Normally I'm like, I'll give it

5:44 a week or not, not 2 because we've got a birthday, a very

5:48 early birthday in our family, very early January.

5:51 So we always to make sure we do the proper changeover, but from

5:56 Christmas to birthday stuff. But this year I was like, get it

6:00 the fuck out of my house. I don't know what it was, but I

6:03 was so done with it. I was just done.

6:05 Yeah. So we were packed up on the 27th

6:08 of December. Wow, that's.

6:09 Quick. Yeah, I think.

6:09 Really quick. No, I waited for after New

6:12 Year's to do mine, but it was, you know, like the yeah, maybe

6:15 the day or two after. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

6:18 I packed up and everything and it was quite satisfying to I

6:21 don't. Know it felt cathartic I.

6:23 Don't know why. Yes, very cathartic.

6:25 Putting it away. It was like, yeah, done with

6:27 that. Done.

6:28 And one to the next year, yeah. But now it's the chaos of the

6:32 back to school shit. Yeah, well we had a birthday, so

6:35 my youngest teddies birthday at the start of this week, so I had

6:38 all birthday stuff out. Yeah, and I thought I'd put

6:41 everything away, but I actually just walked into the hallway

6:44 before and I'm like, oh, there's a happy birthday sign still up.

6:46 I thought about that one. So yeah, we just had family over

6:50 for that this year. Yeah, he's, he's turning 10

6:53 next. Year.

6:54 That's awkward. My birthday is Yeah, hold out.

6:57 Like a hold out for another year and you can have a nice party

7:00 next year so. I've had very strict

7:01 instructions on what to buy this little one for his birthday.

7:04 So have you. We're still waiting for it to

7:06 arrive. Oh, yeah, but it'll hopefully be

7:09 in time for when he gets home to give it to himself.

7:11 Oh, that's cute. Very strict instructions.

7:13 So. Oh, I love it.

7:14 Yeah. So cute.

7:15 They really know what they want. Oh, absolutely.

7:18 I don't know if Lucas wants it, but I know what Brody wants to

7:20 get like. Brody wants Lucas to have it, so

7:23 I'm sure Lucas will love it if that's the case.

7:26 And another sort of maybe this was what spurred on my want to

7:31 get rid of all the Christmas stuff as well.

7:33 But we actually got a puppy, so we welcomed little Piper to our

7:38 family. Little not so, not as little as

7:41 we expected, I can tell you that for sure.

7:45 We welcomed A groodle. So she's a golden retriever

7:48 cross with a poodle. First generation.

7:50 She's just gorgeous. She's a lovely little thing.

7:54 It was definitely earlier than we thought we were going to get

7:56 a dog given, you know, Luna. We had to have Luna put down in

8:01 August of 2025. S it's only 5 months or so, but

8:06 yeah. But Lucas actually said to me he

8:10 was like, Mom, I don't want a dog, I need a dog.

8:14 I'm with him on that as much because I find it really hard to

8:17 and I wasn't ready for my mom when I got after losing 1.

8:21 And like the things kids do, they do need a dog.

8:24 Yeah, and it's for that consistent, just completely

8:28 undying love that they get from a dog.

8:31 Yeah. That we can't give them 'cause

8:34 we go up and down like fucking yo-yo, some days I can't hug you

8:37 right now, 'cause you aren't driving me mental.

8:39 Yeah, but the dog will. Yeah.

8:40 I need space. Go and see the dog, yeah.

8:41 Go see the dog. Yeah, so many.

8:43 I've got so many photos, like Brody particularly sitting

8:46 outside, you know, talking to the dog, just debriefing.

8:49 Clearly Mum could not deal with it right now.

8:52 Yeah, kids need that. Yeah, for sure.

8:54 Unconditional Love's gonna come from somewhere.

8:56 I see it, but having a puppy in the house again, like goddess,

9:00 you forget what it's like. That's worse than a baby, I

9:02 reckon. Puppies, You reckon?

9:04 I do. I actually feel like it's

9:05 harder. Yeah, well, it's like that.

9:07 They come to you as a manic mental toddler.

9:10 Yes, that's why. Yeah.

9:11 And you're like, fuck, fuck, I haven't even had, I don't know,

9:15 I haven't had time to, like, warm into this yet.

9:18 And yeah, I mean, she's gorgeous.

9:20 She's lovely. She's actually quite Placid for

9:23 a puppy. Yes, but she's got so much

9:26 energy as they do. And we're still, you know,

9:28 working on the toilet training. We're getting there.

9:31 Although she just peed outside, just just outside the hallway

9:34 while she was groaning at us to come in before.

9:36 So we're getting there, but we're not quite there yet.

9:40 But she's still so little, so little.

9:43 I took her. So it was her first outing

9:45 yesterday and we took her to the beach and Oh my God, she's a

9:49 water dog through and through. Luna hated the water, hated it,

9:54 loved the water. But Oh my God, she just so

9:56 Piper. Zoomies loved.

9:58 It Oh my goodness, she was just in her element.

10:01 Yeah, we went down with my brother's little toy cavoodle

10:04 and Piper is already, my God, 5 or 6 times her size.

10:10 And yeah, but they got along really, really well, so it was

10:14 good. I hope that continues as they

10:16 all grow up. Yeah, it's.

10:17 Really cute. It's lovely when the cousin dogs

10:19 also. Yeah, that's it.

10:21 They're gonna have to get used to each other because they'll be

10:23 seeing a bit of each. Other over the next.

10:25 However long. Yeah.

10:26 So that's good. Love it when.

10:27 You all get together as a family and include the dogs too.

10:29 Yeah, yeah. That's it.

10:31 They're part of, they're all part of the family, absolutely.

10:33 Are for sure. Now, do you have news

10:37 resolutions? Is that something you do?

10:39 No, not really because I don't stick to them.

10:40 So I mean, I have this like general like vision what I want

10:45 2026 to to bring, but not sort of, yeah, resolutions aren't

10:51 great. For me, I feel the same way.

10:53 I'm not a resolution person because I never stick to them.

10:55 Like who does? Like it's just too much pressure

10:57 on one thing. It is, and like, you know,

10:59 starting it from January. One, yeah.

11:01 I'm still on holidays fuck up. 100%.

11:04 Yeah, I have like generally ideas of like, you know, wanting

11:07 to like actually, you know, as we've spoken about and more

11:09 probably more now crime adjacent on our Patreon, but like I need

11:13 to eat lunch like at work and things like that, that I really

11:16 want to get more, you know, just better habits for those things.

11:20 And I've already prepared a few things over the, you know, that

11:23 I've been doing the last few days, getting the containers to

11:25 get myself motivated to work, fill the container with, with

11:29 things, you know, it's. More than nothing, yeah.

11:32 Exactly, You know, things to take them into work will

11:34 actually mean that I'll actually might take something.

11:36 So yeah, but that's really as close as I get to a news

11:40 resolution. But I mean again, I probably

11:42 won't stick to that so. Some days you will.

11:44 You've got the right intentions. Yeah, yeah.

11:46 And I step in the right direction.

11:48 Exactly. I mean, the resolution is to get

11:49 better at it like not not to, you know?

11:52 Not to be perfect, let's. Not aim for the style, it's

11:54 just. No, no one's perfect at

11:56 anything. No, I'm definitely far from that

11:58 so. See it?

11:59 We all are, yeah. Well, you know, I'm sure things

12:01 will throw spanners in the works, but we just pick

12:03 ourselves up and get going again.

12:05 That's. It that's it.

12:06 Yeah. Yeah.

12:07 I don't, I'm yeah, I'm not a resolution person.

12:10 I I don't know you know how some I don't know if you listen to

12:16 any of the Mamma Mia podcasts, but the Out Louders do like a an

12:20 intention or a word of the year. Yeah.

12:23 Yeah. And I actually think that's

12:24 better like, because then maybe that's something you can reflect

12:27 on as you go and you're like, oh, is that, is that true to

12:30 like that word that I or that intention that I stated at the

12:33 start of the year? Yeah.

12:35 I say that not having thought about what I would do or have or

12:39 what it is, but I think kindness maybe, or something like that,

12:42 like being kind to other people and to myself.

12:46 Well, yeah, but maybe being more empathetical.

12:50 I don't know. I I just, I don't know.

12:53 I had the patience of a friggin St. today.

12:55 Actually, Speaking of kindness. You do now.

12:58 I know. I know.

12:59 I am not by my very nature of patient, I'm not a patient

13:03 person at all. It's why I could never be a

13:05 school teacher. I would just.

13:07 Oh my God, I couldn't. Patience is definitely something

13:10 you need, but not everyone has when they teach.

13:12 Yeah, yeah, well, I recognized to myself that that probably

13:15 wouldn't be a good thing as a teacher, so that wasn't a career

13:20 I pursued. But today my mum and dad are

13:25 gonna bloody listen to this. But so mum decided to get a new

13:29 tablet. Uh huh.

13:31 And I don't know what came over me, but when I was over at their

13:35 place, I was like, I'll order it on Amazon because we've got a

13:38 Prime account. I've done a lot of this over the

13:39 holidays myself, yeah. I'll order it for you.

13:42 Well, first of all, I get a phone call from dad one day.

13:46 Well, the cover didn't come and I'm like Yep, because it comes

13:49 in a different delivery. Yep, doesn't come in the same

13:51 delivery. So don't yell at me.

13:53 It's coming. It'll be there when it gets

13:55 there. Then today, I got a phone call

13:58 because they couldn't. So they've got the cover.

14:00 Yeah. They've decided to set up the

14:02 tablet. Yeah.

14:04 And they were having issues with that.

14:05 Yeah. And I have to give myself a bit

14:09 of a pat on the back because I was actually very patient and it

14:12 went against my very nature. But these are the things I'm

14:15 gonna try and be kinder about. Literally set my mum's my mum up

14:20 with a new phone today and it's like.

14:21 But did you do it for her or did you have to talk her through it?

14:24 No, no, I was on. The phone here and I'll do it.

14:26 See. That that I can do.

14:27 Yeah, no, I was like literally give me your face.

14:29 Like then Mum need that bed or. If I did that mum and be like

14:32 no, no, you're just clicking through it and I don't know what

14:35 you're doing. You don't need to know you don't

14:36 need to. Know but she's like I wanna know

14:38 or not sorry. Yeah.

14:39 No, no, that I think my dad would be that way.

14:42 Like he wants to know how to do it himself, but then he's going

14:44 to ask me 100 times anyway. Yeah, he'll ask you when he gets

14:47 his new phone again. Yeah, he's yeah.

14:49 But whereas mom is a little bit more like, yeah, just do it.

14:51 Yeah, sorry. Yeah.

14:52 Set it up on it working the way it always has worked.

14:55 Yes, I've literally in the last like probably less than a month,

14:58 set up a fire stick, a mobile phone, a computer, and a smart

15:03 watch. You're amazing and I am not come

15:07 tech. Yeah, like I can do some stuff,

15:10 but I'm not. This is what I was saying to mum

15:12 and dad today, right? These things aren't made to be

15:17 hard. No, they're actually very user

15:19 friendly. Until you hit.

15:21 Until you hit a snag, right? But then then if you've hit that

15:24 snag, yeah, someone else has hit that snag and they've put it on

15:28 the Internet somewhere. Fine, exactly.

15:29 That's exactly. So if you come up with an issue,

15:32 Google it. See whether you can solve the

15:34 problem like that, because that's exactly what I did today.

15:37 Doesn't pair. To an iOS device.

15:39 Yes, yes, or in my mum's case her phone is too old and you

15:45 can't actually download the right app for.

15:46 It Yeah, Yep, Yep. So anyway, uh huh.

15:51 We deserve medals. Oh, 100%.

15:54 I'm like, when I set up that computer, I'm like, I was

15:56 expecting to ring Peter Go and then literally to like have that

16:00 set up and have the kids arrive and go.

16:02 You can use it and there wasn't an issue.

16:04 I'm like, what have I done? I'm like, oh, you're.

16:07 Liking dolls? We can just get rid of producer

16:10 page. I did need him to know what to

16:14 buy. Oh, that's good.

16:18 Are the kids liking their new computer?

16:20 Oh, they love it. Oh.

16:21 That's so. Cool.

16:22 One of them particularly. Yeah, yeah, I think they'll want

16:24 to get more use of it when we get to school and stuff.

16:26 Yeah. He's got different purposes for

16:28 you. Tech is for certain things, the

16:31 computer is for certain things. I'm like it for gaming, I would

16:34 like it for nerd stuff. Yes, that's it and that's OK.

16:37 And that's OK, Absolutely. And that also slots into

16:39 different times in the week too. Yeah, I think it all works.

16:42 Well, yeah, that's good. Yes, we'll get there.

16:46 I. Love it.

16:47 Very, very good. All right, well over the break

16:49 we have had a few new Patreons we have and we've had a lot of

16:54 lovely new comments. So I've got a few shout outs for

16:56 today. Cool.

16:57 So our new Patreons are Mim Schmidt, who actually said she

17:01 she's already binged 40 episodes.

17:03 Oh my, she's. Got she found us two weeks ago,

17:06 I think, Oh wow. And she is devastated.

17:09 She's like, I'm going to be so devastated when I catch up and I

17:11 have to listen week to week. It sucks.

17:14 Yeah, it does. I've.

17:15 I've felt like that with podcasts before.

17:19 Jess Everingham, Rebecca Hillam, Wendy Franklin and Jennifer

17:23 Youth, thank you very, very much for becoming patrons.

17:27 We, we can't tell you how much we appreciated it.

17:30 No, it's so wildly appreciated by us.

17:33 So thank you very, very much. And then we've had some really

17:37 lovely comments on our socials as well.

17:40 So I've just got a few names to to read through.

17:42 We had Jill Straight, Lisa who has smashed our back catalog as

17:47 well over the holidays, Cherry, Hope, Hennessy, Rachel L Finch,

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18:27 Yeah. Let's get 2026 going with a

18:29 bank. Because what was the other thing

18:32 that happened? What did you send me on New

18:33 Year's Eve? Oh, do you remember?

18:36 No, we got, we ticked over, yes, 300,000 downloads on New Year's

18:42 Eve, always. Maybe I think about it in the

18:43 days. Before or something, but yeah, I

18:45 know. I just happened to check it.

18:46 Yeah, News even went just to see where we're out for like the end

18:49 we were. Like do you think we'll make it?

18:50 Will we make it? And we made.

18:51 It we made it by about 1000, yeah, I.

18:53 Think that was yeah. So thank you to each and

18:55 everyone of you for listening to to our episodes.

18:58 It's really, really means. That's huge.

19:00 And we have actually just launched our new TikTok page.

19:05 We're back on TikTok. See we got banned from TikTok

19:08 cuz cuz like. We don't know, Yeah.

19:11 Yeah, it was just real weird. So we just got our page removed

19:13 and no one responded to us when we applied for, you know, for it

19:17 to be not to appeal it and everything.

19:18 Nothing that came back. The page is just gone and along

19:21 with our thousands of followers. Many thousands.

19:26 So we're currently on 14. Yeah, just rename it to Two

19:34 Crime Losers. At 2 crime messages actually all

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19:41 We. Are so come and join us over

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20:03 Yeah. So, yeah, but you should be able

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20:06 Yeah, we come up, but I've posted a couple of things on

20:09 there to try and get it rolling. But yeah, please come and join

20:11 us. I will do our regular posting on

20:13 that that we were doing. I'll get back into.

20:16 Putting it up there as well. So as we released new episodes,

20:20 we'll put stuff. Up, all the stuff will go up

20:21 there and then also like continue going to our Instagram

20:24 because everything goes through there as well.

20:26 And obviously then we filter that through to Facebook, I

20:28 think. Insta's just a little bit, I

20:30 don't know, a bit more friendly, especially at the moment.

20:32 I don't know what the goal is with TikTok.

20:34 I feel like I don't know if it'll take off again.

20:36 How we had it, I don't know. It doesn't matter.

20:39 Like we're like the community that we've got on Instagram is

20:42 amazing, gorgeous. Like there's lots of such lovely

20:44 people, lovely comments, everyone's really kind and

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20:48 Yeah, teachers will be interesting.

20:49 Facebook's pretty interesting at.

20:51 Times too. Yeah, that's true.

20:53 Very, very true. Yeah.

20:55 All right. Should we get into today's case?

20:57 Let's this is a very interesting one.

21:01 Yeah, I think so. And I don't know about you, but

21:05 I didn't know the half of it. I thought OK.

21:09 As in I we'll get we'll get into it.

21:11 Yeah. But today we're discussing

21:13 Leanne Holland or Leanne Sarah Holland.

21:16 So this is a case that happened in 1991 in in QLD.

21:23 Good in a QLD? Yeah, and it's, well, I I feel

21:27 like her name is known by so many people.

21:30 Yeah. And it.

21:31 So this is what I knew of the case before we started

21:33 researching it. Yeah, I knew her name.

21:36 I knew she was a young schoolgirl.

21:38 I knew she'd been murdered by someone she knew.

21:41 And someone she knew had been convicted and had gone to jail.

21:44 Yeah, that's all I need. OK, right.

21:46 You know, this case has really, I don't know, it just it's hit

21:50 me for a long time and I've, I've been a bit of a down a

21:53 rabbit hole of this one for quite some time, right.

21:55 Prius doing podcast stuff. OK, It's the one that I've

21:59 followed. You already had an inkling about

22:02 where things were sitting. Oh, yeah, yeah.

22:05 I'll follow this for years. Like this has been one that like

22:07 pre even like. So there's been a couple of

22:08 really good podcasts coming out. A book prior to Who Killed

22:12 Leanne Holland? Yeah.

22:13 And then it became a podcast as well.

22:16 And even before that, I was very much like, what the fuck's with

22:20 this case? There's something like not right

22:21 here. And then when that, when the

22:25 podcast came out, I listened to that, you know, from where to go

22:28 as it was released. So yeah, this is when I've

22:30 really been in for a long time. The podcast.

22:34 Is produced by the same or is narrated or hosted by the same

22:37 guy who did the Bingham Valley Rd. podcast?

22:40 Yeah, and he's awesome. I really like.

22:42 He's really did. Him, he's very, he's Australian,

22:45 very down to earth. He's an ex ex police officer.

22:48 Yeah. And yeah, it's really, really

22:51 well done. It's so detailed.

22:53 So if you want more detail around all of this, because

22:55 there's no way we can cover in that much explicit detail in a

23:00 in A2 crime besties, go on. If you want a long form podcast

23:03 on this, Who Killed Leanne? Leanne Holland is well worth

23:07 listening. Definitely well worth listening.

23:08 I will of but premise that with and I may or may not believe

23:13 what's in that podcast is what I want to say with this is that

23:15 there is definitely people with very strong views on this case

23:20 and so you can find things that lean certain ways for a

23:24 particular reason. 100%. So you do need to need to be

23:28 listen to things with an open mind, hear the actual facts.

23:32 When you listen, like don't listen to someone's perspect,

23:35 someone's opinion. You've really got to get into

23:37 the facts of this. Yeah.

23:38 I think that's very, very true. Yeah.

23:40 And I think a lot is to be a lot can be said about the timeline

23:46 in this particular case as well. And there's so much to get into.

23:51 So let's so much get started. So Leanne Sarah Holland was born

23:56 on the 1st of October in 1978. At the time of her death she was

24:02 12 years of age. She was 5 foot 2, about 41

24:05 kilos, had blonde permed hair. Bloody love it.

24:09 So 90s they lived. She lived at 78 Ellis St.

24:13 In Goodna, QLD, which is a western suburb of Ipswich.

24:18 And she lived with her father, Terry, Yeah, and her sister

24:22 Melissa, and her sister's partner, Graham Stafford.

24:25 They lived there for nearly six months, the two of them with

24:29 their dad. Yeah.

24:29 That's it. Yeah.

24:31 Now Melissa's sorry. Yeah, Well, Melissa and Leanne's

24:35 mother. She left when Leanne was about

24:37 12 months old and we don't really know anything about.

24:42 Her you can't really get information on her, like there's

24:44 not much. To NSW, that's about all I could

24:46 find. When when her and her dad split,

24:49 she disappeared and that's and she really has had nothing to do

24:51 with her kids. So there's actually also a

24:53 brother who's not mentioned much since because he wasn't living

24:55 in the house at the time. Yeah.

24:57 So he wasn't part of the investigation as such or

24:59 anything that when people look into this, but there were three

25:02 children. Yeah.

25:03 So his name was Craig. At the time of at the time of

25:07 her of Leanne's death, Craig was 23 years old.

25:10 He'd moved out with friends. I know he was a removalist.

25:13 That's what he did at his job. That's basically it.

25:15 There's not really much out out. There at that.

25:17 No, he did visit the house before, just before Leanne went

25:21 missing, which is worth noting. Yeah, but the police don't

25:26 recognize that. No.

25:28 And it's yeah, that that's very, very true.

25:31 He did live at the home with Leanne and Terry, the father for

25:36 a while before he moved out. And it was after he moved out

25:40 that Melissa and Graham Stafford moved in because Leanne being 12

25:46 years of age. So Melissa, at this at this

25:48 point, I think she was 20 years of age.

25:51 Yeah. She and Graham had been together

25:54 for about 11 months at the time. Yeah.

25:57 And so, Terry, the father was 46 years old when Leanne was

26:02 killed. He was, he made lead acid

26:05 batteries. That was his job.

26:07 Yeah. And I think he was a chronic

26:10 alcoholic. Is that a fair thing to say?

26:12 Yeah. He.

26:13 They lived right across the road from the Cecil Hotel in Goodna.

26:17 And apparently he was. He would have to pub hop because

26:21 he would get so drunk that he'd be banned from cut off, banned

26:26 whatever from different pubs. So he'd move around and find

26:30 another, you know, another place to drink.

26:32 And Leanne was known to frequent these pubs looking for her dad.

26:36 So if you think about that as a 12 year old girl, I don't know

26:40 that she had a massive amount of supervision.

26:43 I think that's, I think that's a very, I think she brought

26:46 herself up honestly. Well, yeah, it's a sort of

26:49 different opinion of him in that sense that he that that Dad

26:52 Terry was what you call a functioning alcoholic.

26:55 So as much as he would do those things and he would disappear to

26:58 the pub and try and you know, he was very much an alcoholic, no

27:01 question, but he could hold down a job.

27:04 Yeah, that's true. And he did have a good

27:07 relationship with his kids. Yep.

27:09 They weren't, you know, my deadbeat dad kind of situation.

27:13 They he did keep a household neat, tidy, like kind of stuff.

27:16 Many, well, to a degree as a, you know, a male, but yeah.

27:21 So yeah, like there was there was a home and there was love in

27:24 the home. Yeah, I, I think that's very

27:27 fair to say. He cared for his children in yes

27:29 as much as he could, yeah, given the situation.

27:32 I'm not standing up for him being an alcoholic, I just mean

27:34 that it wasn't as straightforward as a deadbeat

27:37 dad. No, not at all.

27:38 He was around. That's it.

27:40 And I think the fact that he asked Melissa to move back in to

27:42 keep to have another adult have a pair of eyes on her, that

27:46 shows that like if there was a degree of.

27:48 Care and understanding that he wasn't capable of it so

27:50 necessarily. Always capable.

27:52 So look, Graham said. So Graham, who was Melissa's

27:55 boyfriend at the time, Graham Stafford, he said that at the

27:59 time he wasn't all that keen on moving in because he'd actually

28:03 helped them move from a different place in Good Night

28:07 into this place in Alice Street. And he said when he helped them

28:11 move, he was in their old house and he'd only been there once or

28:14 twice before. And he said it was so

28:18 dilapidated, it was disgusting. There were doors off hinges.

28:21 It was filthy. He he said it was like squatters

28:25 had been living there. Like it was really run down.

28:28 And so he was like, I, he didn't really want to move to the house

28:31 in Ellis St. because he's like, I don't, I don't really want to

28:34 live like that. Yeah.

28:36 So. But he said he didn't want to

28:38 lose Melissa. Melissa really wanted to go and

28:40 help her dad out and help Leanne out and help raise Leanne and so

28:44 they and that's how they ended up there.

28:46 The idea was they were gonna move out themselves eventually.

28:48 Like by doing it they were gonna save money and things as well.

28:50 Yeah, that's it. I mean, it was mutually

28:52 beneficial, wasn't it? Yeah.

28:53 So Leanne was in Year 8 at Red Bank Plains High School at the

29:00 time of her murder. She was popular.

29:03 She had a lot of friends. She was very well liked.

29:08 I think she was a fairly average student, but she was left to her

29:14 own devices a lot, I think. And so you know that in terms of

29:18 discipline in, you know, completing homework or doing all

29:22 those extra bits and pieces that are expected of you once you hit

29:24 high school, I don't know that she was really.

29:26 Yeah, to that at all. She would often like just take

29:30 herself off to a friend's place and stay the night at friends as

29:32 well. So there wasn't that supervision

29:34 of where is she constantly. She would check in with her dad

29:37 and things like that. But and she would mention to

29:41 him, I'm going to so and so's house.

29:42 But sometimes she wouldn't too. So there was kind of this free

29:45 kind of lifestyle from her, especially once we get to this

29:48 point where it's school holidays.

29:50 So she's, you know, started school holidays.

29:53 What do kids do on school holidays?

29:54 Yeah, they go and visit their friends.

29:55 They go and, you know, go and do those things at 12, maybe not so

29:58 much, but 12 for her, that was her lifestyle.

30:01 She was doing that well before she was 12.

30:03 She had, you know, free reign. Really.

30:05 Yeah. She would go and stay the night

30:07 at neighbors houses. And, you know, I feel like she

30:10 was kind of raised by the. Community yeah.

30:12 She had a friend that lived down at the caravan park, which is

30:14 only like AK down the road from their place, Trish.

30:17 And she'd go and stay at her place constantly.

30:19 And they lived in the caravan park there.

30:20 So that was a regular one that she would stay at.

30:22 But there were others as well that she would just, you know,

30:25 yeah, just stay at their houses. So they might not see her for a

30:27 day or two, but that was not unusual.

30:28 Yeah, so that, that blows my mind.

30:31 Like thinking about that now, having kids, I'm like, fucking.

30:33 I mean, I guess couldn't a different lifestyle of, you

30:36 know, life in the 90s plus being the way that she was raised

30:39 between those two things, it was not considered abnormal at the.

30:42 Time. Yeah, that's true.

30:44 Did you read anywhere about this boyfriend she supposedly had who

30:48 was like 17 or 18 years of age? I've vaguely heard little bits

30:52 about that, but nothing massive. I've been skimmed over as if

30:55 it's nothing and not really. So I assume it's nothing.

30:58 But then, yeah, to think, I mean, I guess if she had the

31:00 freedom and nobody really looking over a shoulder, the

31:03 fact that she had an older boyfriend maybe doesn't come as

31:06 much of A shock. Yeah, I don't know, from what

31:08 I've read about that sort of things, I don't know.

31:10 There's a lot in it. Like OK, I think that people

31:12 have misconstrued something to potentially too, because she was

31:15 pretty girly and liked hanging out with her, her girlfriends.

31:19 Like she she wasn't that way inclined from what many people

31:24 would say, that she'd go and kick the footy with her friend

31:26 but then like kind of stuff not. Other play other sources that

31:29 she was like somebody used the word promiscuous.

31:33 Yeah, that's not. And I'm like.

31:35 I don't. First of all, you actually can't

31:38 call a 12 year old promiscuous because her being promiscuous

31:43 implies that you're able to give consent.

31:44 And at 12 years of age or not, I, I don't know.

31:48 I just, I don't know that there's anything to that

31:53 necessarily. She was 12 years old for

31:55 goodness sake. Yeah, yeah.

31:57 I don't know. I.

31:58 Don't know there's as much in that as I don't know.

31:59 Yeah, I think there's so much else going on around her in that

32:03 environment that that wasn't. Yeah, Yeah.

32:07 I think that's very that way. Yeah, that's very.

32:09 Very sure there might have been boys hovering around and stuff

32:11 like that, but. I mean, she was a very gorgeous

32:13 looking girl. Yeah, yeah.

32:16 But there was plenty of even all the Dick heads floating around.

32:20 That's so many. A 17 year old boy is probably

32:22 not the biggest issue. No, no.

32:24 Although one of them was 19. Yeah.

32:26 One was 19, yeah. It's it just goes to show that,

32:29 oh, we'll get to all this, but it goes to show you never know

32:31 the people who are around you until something like this

32:34 actually happens. All right, so we should we start

32:39 on the day of? Yeah, let's.

32:41 Say that jump into. The day she went missing, yeah.

32:44 So this was on Monday the 23rd thank you of September in 1991.

32:52 Now there's many versions of events of what actually happened

32:58 this day and depending on where you get your information from,

33:03 there's discrepancies, there's slight variations and

33:06 differences. So it's kind of hard to really

33:09 go down by it. But what we think or what what

33:12 I. Got with what the what the

33:14 police can have they've confirmed story, according to

33:17 them. But then there's there are other

33:20 aspects of it that they don't call confirmed.

33:23 Yeah, about what happened that day.

33:24 Yeah, and then that, see, this all gets me.

33:27 There's so much to this anyway. So basically what the police

33:31 case is or what the Crown case is, is that on them on that

33:35 morning? So sorry.

33:36 Let's go back a couple of days. That weekend, the Saturday and

33:40 Sunday, Melissa and Graham had actually been staying with some

33:42 friends. They'd gone away somewhere up

33:44 the coast and had been staying with some friends.

33:47 They came back on the Sunday night.

33:49 Leanne was at home, Terry was at home, and they all went to bed,

33:53 had dinner, went to bed as normal on the Monday morning.

33:57 Melissa. So Melissa and Graham both

33:59 worked at B&D roller doors. Melissa worked in the office

34:03 there, and Graham worked as like a computer, something sky

34:08 specialist. I don't know.

34:09 He did that. He basically made the doors like

34:12 the print of the doors. Yeah.

34:14 That was his job there. And that's how they met,

34:17 obviously, and Terry. So on this Monday morning,

34:22 Melissa went to work and Terry went to work and Graham had an

34:27 audio. So in the house, it's school

34:31 holidays. Melissa Leanne hadn't gone to

34:34 school this day because holidays, first day of school

34:37 holidays. And So what the crowns say is

34:41 that Graham and Leanne were left at home.

34:45 Apparently, Leanne said to Graham at some point in the

34:47 morning that she wanted to dye her hair.

34:50 Now, Graham had tips or like, you know, those, like, condom

34:56 caps, those condom caps. And, like, you'd pull the hair

34:59 out. I think he had, you know,

35:00 something of that going on. And one of his friends used to

35:02 do it for him. He said in one of the podcasts I

35:05 listened to, he said, I used to give her a bottle of tea and

35:07 Maria, and she'd do my hair for me.

35:09 I'm like, could you get more 90s?

35:11 Than that yeah. Jesus.

35:14 But so he had some of the supplies leftover.

35:17 And what he said to Leanne was, yeah, look, I've got this stuff

35:19 leftover, but you have to ask your sister whether you're

35:21 allowed to use it or not. Even your dad, I think She asked

35:23 her. Dad was.

35:23 Yeah, yeah, She called him, right?

35:25 Yeah, Yeah, she called him. That's where I kind of go.

35:27 Like, it wasn't like she had no respect for her dad or none of

35:29 that. Like, yeah, no, she did.

35:31 She rang her dad and said to him, you know, can I dye my

35:33 hair? Her words to her dad were that

35:35 Graham, according to Terry, anyway.

35:37 She said Graham said he'd help me.

35:40 Yeah. So it was like, you know, he

35:41 was. She was trying to get him over

35:42 the line of saying yes to this, like, to dyeing her hair, you

35:45 know. So like, you know, of course is

35:46 someone who's older and more mature.

35:47 He's gonna help me out. He's trying to.

35:48 She's trying to like, you know, talk him into it.

35:50 Yeah. So he's like, oh, whatever.

35:51 Like, you know, you're gonna do like, kind of thing.

35:52 Yeah. I'm fine with that.

35:53 OK, yeah. So she's got the approval of of

35:57 her father to do it. So over the phone, Yeah.

36:00 So he, she phoned him at work at about 8:45 yeah, AM on that

36:04 Monday morning. But Graham and has said since

36:07 he's like he is, oh, I was never gonna help her.

36:08 Like, I don't know what I was doing.

36:09 Like someone used to do it for me.

36:11 I just had the product she could use.

36:12 That's right. There was no intention from him

36:14 of like helping helping her do it and like, you know, wetting

36:17 her hair in the bathroom or any of those sorts of things.

36:19 He had no intention really, According to him of what he's

36:22 spoken about. It wasn't that he was going to

36:24 help her do it, He was going to help her by providing some

36:27 products that he had. And what he says is he gave her

36:30 the products and she just put them down on the kitchen table.

36:32 And to his, to his knowledge, they were never used.

36:35 Yeah. What the Crown say or should we

36:37 get into that? Yeah, maybe a little.

36:39 Bit what the Crown say happened is that Graham did help Leanne

36:45 and in doing so it elicited a bit of a psychosexual rage in

36:53 him and he lashed out and beat her with a hammer.

37:00 Now this is allegedly according to the crown this happened in

37:05 the bathroom of the home and what they then say is that he

37:10 carried her body out of the house and now they had an old

37:14 Queenslander. So basically the garage is

37:16 underneath and the dwelling is on a second story, but the

37:20 stairs to get into the house or to that second story at the

37:24 front of the house, so outside of the house.

37:26 So what they allege, what the Crown alleges is that Graham has

37:31 then taken taken Leanne's body out of the out of the bathroom,

37:38 down those front stairs, placed her body in the boot of his car.

37:42 So he had a. Prior to that, oh, sorry he

37:46 well, sorry again. Main road yeah, pub across the

37:48 road taking her down those steps and then dive bin dived and got

37:55 out a curtain, a curtain screen that was removed from the house

38:02 weeks prior. Would that still be in the?

38:04 Bin, I think it was multiple weeks, Yeah.

38:05 So it was like after the bins had been taken, but go on.

38:09 Yep. Laid that down and put her body,

38:11 wrapped it in that curtain and then put her in his boot of his

38:16 car. Yeah.

38:17 And then left that body there for two days, driving around

38:22 with Melissa in the car. With Terry in the car.

38:25 Terry in the car and then eventually dumping the body two

38:28 days later. Yeah, that's what the Crown

38:30 alleges. Now, there is a lot.

38:33 There are so many issues with all of this, not the least of

38:37 which is that, as you said, Melissa had been in the car,

38:39 They'd gone and gotten groceries together.

38:42 They went and got groceries on that Monday night, actually, and

38:47 there's no suggestion from Graham not to use the boot or.

38:51 Nothing like that. They didn't use the.

38:53 Boot didn't. They didn't use the.

38:54 Boot but not there. But as Melissa has said very

38:56 clearly, it wasn't even a thought process from her to use

38:59 the boot. They bought a couple of

39:01 groceries. She put the bag I think on the

39:03 backseat. She did.

39:04 It wasn't it wasn't even a thought from her that she would

39:06 use the boot. It was never a conversation of,

39:08 oh, don't put that in the boot like from Garrett, from Graham.

39:10 There was no defence of that. She could have very easily have

39:13 walked around and put that in the boot, is what she sort of

39:16 has said. Yeah, Yeah.

39:18 But there was no, don't put that in the boot.

39:20 It was just put in the backseat. There was, yeah.

39:22 It's just as you do. Like I would do that if I only

39:24 had a couple of groceries. Yeah, probably you.

39:26 Know we all just Chuck, you know, if there's no one back

39:28 there, you just Chuck it on the backseat.

39:29 Absolutely, yeah. Yeah, so, my God, there's so, so

39:33 much that goes along with all of this.

39:37 I guess in terms of like the other, The thing is that they

39:39 say is the last sighting of her was roughly 930.

39:43 A number of people saw her walking into town.

39:48 So they do say that she without, you know, dismissing this stuff

39:51 with Graham Stafford that she did go into town.

39:55 She did walk up to the shops because a number of people have

39:57 sighted her there, interacted with her, whatever around the

40:00 shops that though she was heading towards the hairdressers

40:03 or something to get some other product.

40:05 But she never got to the hairdressers.

40:07 That's right. So there's the inference is that

40:09 she's then turned around from there and gone back home.

40:11 And that's when this has occurred with Graham Stafford.

40:16 But if we take that away and go, OK, that's what's Graham

40:19 Stafford's done or hasn't done, Yeah, she does.

40:22 According to the Crown, that was her last sighting was 930 in

40:26 that morning. However, there are unconfirmed

40:30 other people who have come forward who have seen her other

40:32 times during that same day. So there was an alleged sighting

40:38 at 10:15 AM at the commbank in Queen Street.

40:43 So we know she was seen in Queen St.

40:45 Yeah, at about 9:30, as you said.

40:47 That was the last confirmed sighting, according to the

40:49 police. Yeah, there are unconfirmed

40:52 sightings. This one was at 10:15.

40:54 Now, this one I find really fucking bizarre.

40:57 Yeah, because she was actually withdrawing money for this old

41:01 bloke. Her old, yeah, who lived like

41:05 not far from. There, Yeah, yeah.

41:08 And it's to me, it's confirmed. The police say it's unconfirmed,

41:10 but the evidence that has. But you know why the police say

41:14 it's unconfirmed? Because he denies it.

41:16 He denies that he got her to do. It the uncle denies it but the

41:19 all the bank stuff agrees with it that it happened.

41:22 So the teller, yeah, who has seen Leanne on multiple.

41:26 Occasions she was missing for like sorry, we should probably

41:28 we have to go back to that point like she the family like so

41:32 she's walked off from Graham. According to Graham, what

41:34 happened? She disappeared at 9:30 off into

41:37 the this into the town, into the shops and that's the last he saw

41:40 of her. Now they didn't then didn't

41:43 report her missing for until the following day at 5:45 PM.

41:47 Yeah. So the fact that, so the, the

41:50 basic they've report, they basically report her missing

41:52 then and it, and it goes around the town, you know, look missing

41:54 girl. So when that's come up on TV or,

41:57 you know, whatever, this bank teller's gone.

41:59 Well, actually I saw her at the bank.

42:01 Like I'm sure of it. That's, that's the name even

42:03 that I remember. And she said to the police, I

42:05 remember removing like which she took out $200 and I had to do a

42:10 third party check on somebody removing it was from someone

42:13 else's bank account. And I feel like it was a

42:15 Holland. The name was Holland.

42:16 But I couldn't, she couldn't remember all the details.

42:18 But she the stuff she remembered was enough that they went when

42:21 they went into the records, they could find that there was a stub

42:23 of a third party check that she had done and that somebody had

42:28 removed $200. Now, when they looked at it was

42:31 this uncle's account, And then when they approached him and

42:34 said, you know, like, what do you know of this?

42:35 He said, I didn't tell her I didn't get her to do that.

42:38 I went into the bank myself the day before or the day after, and

42:42 I was served by a man. Yeah.

42:44 Whereas it was a woman. No, it was a woman and it was

42:46 her signature doing the third party check.

42:48 Yep. And it all so it all aligns with

42:52 her, well, her story. The bank tell a story.

42:55 The uncle story doesn't line up. No, and I don't think they were

42:58 able to find the withdrawal that the uncle supposedly did.

43:01 No. And there is no.

43:02 There was no man that worked there.

43:03 No. Oh, that's right.

43:04 Yeah. There wasn't even a man who

43:06 worked there. That's right.

43:07 Who was a teller? That's right.

43:09 So there's no one at the bank that would have done that

43:11 transaction that he was saying had happened, whereas she had

43:14 clearly remembered not everything, but enough.

43:16 That was like it made. So have we looked into the

43:19 uncle? No, No, that's never been looked

43:21 into. No.

43:22 What the fuck, man? Yeah.

43:25 And where that $20 end up? But Leanne had, well, that's it.

43:28 Leanne had withdrawn money for him before.

43:30 This wasn't, this wasn't a A1 off or a first time thing.

43:33 She'd actually did that for him. Well, the check was approved,

43:37 you know. She that's right, she had.

43:38 A Everything she needed to do, Yeah.

43:40 To make this payment happen. Yeah.

43:43 And there was It all went through fine.

43:45 So she hadn't done anything incorrect to hand over this

43:47 money. Yeah.

43:48 To whoever this third party was. That.

43:50 And she remembered it being someone who looked like Leanne.

43:52 Yeah. Bizarre.

43:55 So freaking bizarre. Interesting.

43:57 There's just so many. Like unknowns in this case,

44:00 absolutely, and things that haven't been followed up.

44:03 No. No.

44:04 Another unconfirmed sighting happened at 3:40 PM, The owner

44:08 of a convenience store next to the Cecil Hotel, which is the

44:11 set, the hotel that's across the road from 78 Ellis St. from

44:15 Leanne's home. Yeah, that person there said

44:21 that they served Leanne. The Crown have never or the

44:25 police have never actually confirmed that sighting,

44:29 although this person's like, I see her every day.

44:32 I know who it was. I know what day it was.

44:36 Like, I remember it happening because I then found out the

44:39 following day that she was missing.

44:40 And I was like, I just saw her yesterday.

44:42 Yeah. These people, it's a small town,

44:44 really, really, it's not that many people in this town.

44:47 They know who she is, they knew who know who they saw, but the

44:51 police will not confirm that these people saw what they saw.

44:53 No. So I guess we should say then.

44:56 So obviously they've reported and missing at 5:45.

44:58 So I mean, the following day on 24th.

45:00 So we're talking now from 9:30, we're talking well over 24 hours

45:03 that she's been missing by the time she's reported.

45:06 And as we said, the reason for that being that they did assume

45:09 that she was just sleeping at someone else's house.

45:11 So this was unfortunately the scenario of what their lifestyle

45:15 was. That meant they didn't report

45:16 anything till the following day. So Tricia Lynch, who was one of

45:21 Leanne's best, she lived at the caravan Friends.

45:23 She she's the one who lived at the caravan park.

45:25 She phoned the house at about 10:00 AM looking for Leanne and

45:29 Graham answered the phone. On this on the day.

45:31 On the day that she went missing, yeah.

45:33 And so I think Graham just assumed she'd probably gone to

45:36 see she found her Tanya. And yeah, because Tanya had

45:39 actually turned down Trisha. Trisha.

45:40 Sorry, Trisha. Trisha had actually gone down.

45:43 Said I'll go and see if I can find her down at the shops.

45:46 Yeah. So I assume Graham would have

45:47 thought, well, Trisha has met up with her and she's probably gone

45:50 to Trisha. Stay there.

45:51 She did that. Regular all the time.

45:53 Yeah. So it was really no second

45:54 reflect, no at the fact that she didn't turn up home that night.

45:58 So, yeah, it has meant that. So 5:45 the following day,

46:01 they've rocked up to the police station now.

46:02 I mean, so they've driven down there in Graham's car.

46:05 Yep. Which supposed.

46:07 To the crowd. And Terry in it.

46:09 Had Leanne in the boot and. Supposedly Leanne's in the boot

46:11 at this point, but now? Can I just also say that the

46:15 outside temperature on this day was 28°C, so the boot would have

46:22 been 40 + 50 plus possibly? Yep, Yep.

46:26 OK, just keep that in mind. Yeah, and the smell of

46:28 decomposition and what that what would happen?

46:31 Because we're now talking, as I said, well over 24 hours since

46:34 she's been put in that boot potentially.

46:37 According to the Crown, it it would have been, yeah.

46:39 So approximately then obviously they go into, you know, mode of

46:43 like looking for a 12 year old girl, which they did all the

46:45 right things in that they were looking for her, the police.

46:48 And at 1:15 the following day on the 26th that we're talking

46:52 about, sorry, the 26th actually. So the Thursday actually was a

46:54 whole nother day in between with them looking for her.

46:57 So the 26th of September, approximately 1:15 PM, two

47:00 police on dirt bikes driving around now looking for Leanne,

47:06 unfortunately have come across a body.

47:08 So they have found her partially clothed body shoeless in

47:14 bushland just off of Red Bank Plains Rd.

47:17 So this is. A pretty main road.

47:19 Yeah, her body was found only 30 meters from the road.

47:22 Yeah, it was not very far into this bushland.

47:25 Not hidden. Not hidden, no.

47:28 Very sort of in plain sight, really.

47:30 That's not like they had to go searching or digging or looking

47:33 for her in any way. It was very she was very

47:34 superficially placed on the earth.

47:36 There's only about 810 K from from their home, so very local.

47:41 I haven't like, you know, from where she was sited last as well

47:45 to where she'd walk to from home.

47:47 So she. Yeah, very local.

47:49 Very. But yeah, the way she was found

47:51 was absolutely horrific. They actually had to identify

47:55 her by fingerprints. She couldn't be identified in

47:57 any other way. So the body was brutally

48:01 attacked. The way that it gets described a

48:03 lot is statistic. She was put through the ringer,

48:08 that poor kid. Yeah, look, if you if you want

48:11 detailed descriptions of it, you can absolutely find that.

48:15 I think the things that we do need to discuss though, are the

48:18 fact that she had cigarette marks, cigarette burns all over

48:21 her body. Or lighter burns.

48:22 One or the other? Both, yeah.

48:23 Both. So cigarettes, cigarette butts

48:26 and lighter burns. Yeah, in smiley faces.

48:29 So we're talking, you know, those old, old school car

48:33 cigarette lighters that you'd push in and that the element

48:35 would turn like red hot? Yeah.

48:38 She had like 2 Marks and like the from the cigarette to make

48:43 the eyes and the bottom part of the cigarette lighter would make

48:48 like a :) on the mouth mouth part.

48:52 It's absolutely horrific. There was also a sexual nature

48:59 to some of her injuries. Yeah, not definitively that they

49:04 said she was sexually assaulted, but there was a sexual nature to

49:10 the attack. Yeah, I look.

49:12 Interesting things in that. That's exactly right, yeah.

49:15 She was also bludgeoned with a blunt instrument, which was

49:20 later assumed to be a hammer. Yeah.

49:23 Assumed. Yeah.

49:25 And they there is a minimum of 10 blows to the head, which is

49:29 what the autopsy proved to be the cause of death was the the

49:35 blunt force trauma to her head. Yeah, yeah, absolutely awful.

49:39 This poor girl. Just disgusting.

49:43 But the other thing that were found with her was a lighter and

49:47 cigarette butts. None of those were tested.

49:50 Now cigarette butts can hold a favorite of DNA.

49:53 I mean, not that we're talking early 90s DNA is not a thing,

49:56 but if they had been collected, they'd been tested later.

49:59 Like we're talking in the 90s, by late 90s those could have

50:02 been tested one. 100%. None of those things were

50:05 collected on the site, but they were there.

50:07 Yep, there was also found with her.

50:10 Oh sorry, not found with her, but her hair at the time when

50:14 they found her body was red. Now she was.

50:16 We said we had. She had beautiful blonde hair

50:19 and it was assumed when they found her body that she had

50:22 managed to dye her hair red, which is what she was wanting to

50:24 do. That's not what had happened,

50:28 unfortunately. The red hair was actually just

50:31 blood. Blood soaked.

50:32 Yeah. So the coroner took a Swatch of

50:35 her hair and washed it, which is part of their process.

50:39 And in washing it realized that the red tint to her hair was

50:43 just blooded and washed away. So like, I think, I think that

50:49 gives you a bit of a visual idea of just how catastrophic in

50:52 nature these these blows were. I mean, 10 blows to the head

50:58 with a blunt instrument that might have been a hammer or

51:02 something like a hammer. I mean, my God, it's

51:07 unfathomable. Absolutely.

51:09 Absolutely. Yeah, All right.

51:11 Absolutely disgusting. Poor kid.

51:14 It only took them a further couple of days.

51:19 I think it was two days later that they arrested Graham

51:22 Saturday, so. They interviewed him on the

51:25 Friday. Yeah.

51:26 So her body was found in the afternoon on the Thursday.

51:28 Yeah. They interviewed him for the

51:30 first time on the Friday, and then they said to him on the

51:35 Saturday that they wanted to interview him again.

51:37 But when they found where he was, they actually arrested him

51:41 for the murder of Leanne Holland.

51:42 Yeah. Now quick.

51:46 Oh yeah. Oh yeah.

51:47 Have we actually investigated any other line of inquiry here,

51:51 or have we just assumed that the bloke who lived with her is

51:54 probably the guy who did it because he was at home?

51:58 Look. Should have been questioned and

52:00 should have been looked. At 100%.

52:02 Absolutely, Absolutely. 100% if you've been looked.

52:05 At jumped at that quickly for an arrest at that point with

52:09 minimal evidence. I would I would say almost no

52:13 evidence. They had a circumstantial idea

52:17 of what they thought may have happened.

52:20 Yeah, the evidence wasn't. Have you seen the police

52:22 interview? Yeah, the.

52:24 First interviews, I'm going to say is it's it's amateurish.

52:32 Yeah, the second interview is embarrassing.

52:35 Those police officers should be fucking embarrassed.

52:39 Yeah, Queensland police should be embarrassed.

52:42 The fact that that is out there and you can see the way he's

52:44 interviewed Graham is having to correct them on dates.

52:47 Yeah, timelines, things that happened, things that they're

52:50 accusing him that happened that he then had to correct them on.

52:53 He's like, no, no, you said I did this.

52:55 I actually didn't. I did this.

52:56 Yeah. Yeah.

52:57 It's it's disgusting. Yeah.

53:01 So his timeline for the day though, is that he was working

53:05 on his car in the morning. So obviously from and he

53:08 changed. I've got a lot of car person,

53:10 but like, yeah. Can we just say for Graham, his

53:13 car was his pride and joy? Yes.

53:15 He loved that car. And any spare time he had, he'd

53:20 work on it. He was actually a motor mechanic

53:22 by trade. Yeah.

53:23 So this was something that he was very adept at and something

53:27 that he really took so much pride in.

53:29 His Holden Gemini. Yeah.

53:31 Red, red sedan. Holden Gemini sedan.

53:34 Yeah, yes. So he, he was working on his car

53:37 for the morning. He changed whatever something in

53:40 the car that they'd change like. But yeah, he had specific thing

53:44 he wanted to do that morning on the car and he did do that.

53:46 And he worked on that until roughly about 11:00 AM.

53:50 Now, there were people who witnessed him doing that who

53:53 because this was like a main road that he was they were on.

53:56 Yeah. So there were people that

53:57 witnessed him at the car. There was a neighbor he spoke to

53:59 at some point that morning as well, over a fence.

54:01 Yeah. So he was seen to be that he was

54:04 doing that up until around about 11:00 AM.

54:05 Are you talking about the Vietnamese neighbor?

54:07 Yes. OK, so this one gets me too.

54:10 Yeah, because so Graham and the neighbor, the neighbors,

54:14 actually, it was a husband and wife.

54:15 They were planting like a Persimmon tree or something like

54:18 that. Something random, something

54:20 Queensland is that we would be able to grow in Victoria.

54:23 Yeah, and they actually you can grow Simmons in Victoria anyway.

54:28 No, you can't fucking grow mint. You wouldn't understand that

54:34 joke, but it grows easily, okay? Doesn't in my.

54:41 Anyway, so, so basically the these this couple, this

54:46 Vietnamese couple, English was their second language.

54:49 And so they were they had a conversation with Graham over

54:52 the fence. It was cyclone fencing, so you

54:53 could see through it. Yeah.

54:55 It was just wire fencing. And, you know, he was like, hey,

54:58 how's it going? You know, very superficial

55:00 conversation. Great.

55:02 What then happened was when Graham told the police his

55:05 story. Yeah.

55:07 They then went and spoke to these Vietnamese corporation

55:12 interpreter. Yeah.

55:14 And somehow they convinced this couple to sign a statement to

55:19 say that they were actually at a funeral at the time, but they

55:23 weren't. That was the next day.

55:25 Yeah. So this is another case of like,

55:27 just as they were in the interview, they couldn't get

55:29 their fucking days straight. I.

55:31 Don't know if you've ever used interpreters before.

55:33 No. No, I have on a number of

55:35 occasions, and I'm sorry you never get the right information.

55:38 No, it doesn't interpret. Well.

55:41 It is very difficult. I mean, as much as like, and I

55:44 don't know whose fault you want to call that like as in because

55:48 the cops probably were asked questions in a.

55:50 And this is the thing. An interpreter has a role of

55:52 interpreting. The police have a role as a, as

55:55 a, you know, their job is being, is the police work.

55:57 And then you've got this layperson over the other side,

56:00 right. So you've got one person who's

56:01 got a job to do who's trying to communicate that to someone else

56:04 who's then communicating that to the next person.

56:06 Yeah. It's bit of a like a whispers

56:10 sort of situation. It is a.

56:11 Little bit the IT just gets lost in translation translation.

56:14 So these cops probably explained it in cop language.

56:18 Then the interpreter kind of go, well, how am I going to put that

56:20 in Vietnamese and my understanding of it on lay it

56:22 into it, you know, and then it gets spoken to the other person

56:25 and they come back with a response, which then they've got

56:28 to go, OK, well, how do I put that into English and and give

56:30 it to a cop? Like, yeah, it doesn't really go

56:33 as well as you think it's going to go.

56:35 And this is OK, that's giving. That's OK.

56:38 Let's take that as as being the reason.

56:40 Yeah, but then that's an unreliable witness.

56:44 Absolutely. So the fact that the cops bloody

56:47 hung their hat on this is not good enough, No.

56:51 And not only was it these Vietnamese people, neighbors,

56:55 next door neighbors who saw him, but there were people who drove

56:58 past seeing his bum hanging out of the car, you know, like.

57:02 There were others that saw enough to just disregard the

57:05 neighbors of what they said to kind of go.

57:08 He was there roughly until about 11:00 AM, which I think in the

57:11 end the cops kind of come around to that to 11 AM.

57:16 They've got him kind of covered. They know where he was.

57:18 Yeah. So then what they're saying is

57:19 that between 11:00 AM, Yeah. And 4:00 PM when Terry got home.

57:25 Well, no. Well, actually, well, their

57:26 official statement is that somewhere between 8:30 AM and

57:29 4:00 PM is actually their official line, but it happens

57:32 somewhere in there. Yeah, but I.

57:34 But yeah, his timeline basically gives him till about 11:00 AM.

57:37 Yeah. The next one where we can

57:38 corroborate where he was, was it about 1:20 PM?

57:42 He went to a friend's place so and then at 2:18 he was at

57:46 Franklin's supermarket. Who remembers Franklin's?

57:49 Oh God, yeah, definitely. Then at 2:59 PM, he went through

57:53 the car wash. That's proven with receipts.

57:56 Like we've actually got physical receipts.

57:58 Absolutely evidence we know. He definitely went and.

58:01 And did those did those things so the friend that he went to

58:03 their house that they corroborate that he was there

58:05 from 1:20 you know obviously left there in enough time to get

58:08 to Franklin's by 2:18. He also.

58:10 Had Red Rooster for lunch in there somewhere.

58:11 Well, it's not Red Rooster in Queensland.

58:13 What is it? Big Red is it?

58:15 Is red rose like no far out? No.

58:19 Anyway, he had what we now know as Red Red Rooster.

58:23 Yes. So there was a number of things

58:25 there, but basically between 11:00 AM and 1:20 PM ish, he

58:30 there isn't kind of someone else who can give him an alibi.

58:33 Yeah. Of what he was doing between

58:35 then. Yeah, he has.

58:37 He says he was doing things, but no one else would have seen him

58:39 do them. So, I mean, and I feel for the

58:41 guy in that sense that genuinely, I mean, you know, you

58:44 can spend plenty of time without someone seeing you in a day and

58:46 doesn't mean you're not you're murdering someone.

58:49 Like, yeah, I get that. But yeah, unfortunately, he

58:51 doesn't have anyone who can corroborate what he was up to

58:53 between those those that time. No.

58:55 So it does give him enough time I guess to have maybe murdered

59:00 her, but does it give him enough time to have cleaned up the

59:05 mess? Which is what I then really.

59:08 Struck Oh, there is absolutely no way in my mind, Yeah, this is

59:12 the thing that proves to me that he didn't do it.

59:15 Yeah, in the house. Police say that he did it in the

59:18 house in that. Bathroom.

59:19 In the bathroom, yeah. Now there's been a lot of a lot

59:23 of people looked at this, that if this, if this death occurred

59:27 in a small space like that, no matter what where it took place,

59:31 there was a lot of blood. Did you watch the under

59:33 investigation where they actually got like a?

59:37 Splattered blood. Splattered blood.

59:39 Yeah. And then small bit.

59:40 Yeah, well, it was. It was like a. 10 cent piece. 20

59:45 cent piece. 20 cent piece, maybe, yeah.

59:47 And then they've hit that with a hammer to show you what the

59:49 blood splatter. Blood splatter would be.

59:51 Yeah. Spatter would be.

59:53 Yeah, it was immense. Yeah.

59:55 So there was blood, literally like up to what would be the

59:58 ceiling height, the width of that again from one drop.

1:00:04 Well, a little pool of blood from one hammer blow.

1:00:07 Which I was saying was that's one hammer blow.

1:00:09 We're talking minimum 10, like that's what they're saying that

1:00:12 she was she died from. Exactly.

1:00:14 So 10 blows to that, to that kind of pool of blood.

1:00:18 I mean that same pool of blood. I think they they did it did

1:00:21 they do it twice? I.

1:00:21 Think they did it twice. Yeah.

1:00:23 So I mean, they it's still splattered the second time even

1:00:26 that we're not adding any more blood like there.

1:00:29 And now what they say they found the police is they did find

1:00:33 potential blood in the bathroom, but did they find the kind of

1:00:39 blood level that would have been there if that was the case?

1:00:42 No way. And not only that, but if he had

1:00:45 have cleaned that all up and done a meticulous job, which he

1:00:48 would have had to have done, yeah, then it's still, there's

1:00:53 no way he could have cleaned it up that well in such a short

1:00:55 amount of time. Not only that, people have blood

1:00:59 in bathrooms. Like, well, this is the thing,

1:01:01 you know. You might cut yourself shaving,

1:01:03 you might have a finger and you go to the bathroom to get a bat

1:01:06 cut finger. You go to the bathroom to get a

1:01:07 Band-Aid. Yeah, like think about women

1:01:10 when they have their. Period and 12 is a chance that

1:01:12 she had started on a period, you know, like there's blood around.

1:01:16 You can nick yourself. She could have been shaving her

1:01:17 legs, you know, and nicked herself doing that shaving.

1:01:20 Exactly. Even for man like he.

1:01:22 Could have, you know, cut himself, because that's the

1:01:24 other thing with this with the blood stuff as well that gets

1:01:26 brought up that they say that that what they found was Leanne

1:01:29 blood. Now at this time they were not

1:01:32 able to do DNA testing of the blood.

1:01:35 No, all they could do was test for like DNA family basically.

1:01:38 So that's right. They can look at what what type

1:01:40 of blood it was and yes. Did the type of blood match

1:01:43 Leanne? Yes, the type of blood also

1:01:45 matched. Her and Melissa.

1:01:47 Her brother and Melissa, yeah, her brother had been there a

1:01:50 couple of days prior and admitted to cutting himself when

1:01:53 he was there. That's right.

1:01:54 And he went to the bathroom to wash his hand and patch it up.

1:01:57 Yeah. So his blood was, we know, two

1:02:01 days before. So he actually broke into the

1:02:02 family home. Yes, that's that's another

1:02:06 thing. But it was 2 weeks beforehand.

1:02:08 He cut his hand really badly. Yeah, he admits he went to the

1:02:13 bathroom with this cut hand. I mean hello and no.

1:02:16 One would have cleaned it up perfectly, like they didn't know

1:02:18 we'd done it so. Just really quickly, sorry, just

1:02:21 to interject a little bit here, but did you know that Craig, her

1:02:24 brother died in 1996 by falling off a balcony?

1:02:28 Oh. I didn't know that.

1:02:29 Yeah, he fell off a balcony at a party and sustained like he

1:02:33 basically broke his neck and died on impact.

1:02:36 That's isn't just tragic. That was only What was that like

1:02:39 five years after Leanne died? God, yeah, Terry.

1:02:43 Melissa Jesus, they've been through it.

1:02:45 That's just they really, that's awful.

1:02:46 They. Really, really have.

1:02:48 God, so yeah, the blood in the bathroom, I find that there's

1:02:52 one not enough. They also.

1:02:55 Yeah. And also then labeling and

1:02:58 specifically saying it's Leanne. You can't say that.

1:03:01 They can't actually say. That and even like when they did

1:03:04 get to it eventually and test it to the 10th degree that they

1:03:08 could find out whose blood it was.

1:03:10 And this was out of 60 or 50 or 60 droplets of blood they found

1:03:13 supposedly, well, potential blood.

1:03:16 Only one of them had enough to be able to DNA test it out of

1:03:20 all of them, and even that it was miniscule amount to test it

1:03:24 that they found. Wasn't even 1/4 of a drop.

1:03:26 Or something. Yeah, it was able to be that was

1:03:28 able to be matched to Leanne. But as we said, it's a bathroom.

1:03:32 Yeah. Yeah.

1:03:34 I mean, if you cut your finger, you go to the bathroom to get a

1:03:36 Band-Aid, you, you know, you need yourself shaping, you're in

1:03:38 the bathroom. Like of course, potentially

1:03:40 there is blood in everyone's bathrooms.

1:03:43 I feel like of course there would be.

1:03:44 Yeah, I mean the the the thing that gets me if you found blood

1:03:47 on the ceiling. Different story, but they found

1:03:50 this. I think that that particular

1:03:52 was. Found on the shower curtain.

1:03:54 I thought, yeah, yeah, yeah. They had a bath.

1:03:55 Shower. That's right.

1:03:57 It was on the shower, yeah, they found, and that's the only place

1:03:59 they found blood that they could find in that.

1:04:02 Splattered. Every Yeah, it would have that

1:04:03 blood if that's what took place in that bathroom.

1:04:06 It would have been on the ceiling, on the skirting boards,

1:04:08 on the tiles. They also said that they found

1:04:11 blood on the stairs and they found a droplet of blood in

1:04:16 Graham's car and. Supposedly they found blood in

1:04:19 the bucket of that. They say it was a bucket mop

1:04:21 bucket and they reckon there was blood in that.

1:04:23 But the thing was. But that that came back as that

1:04:26 it was. This is it.

1:04:26 They what they were doing was they video recorded, the police

1:04:28 video recorded themselves taking all this evidence in the house

1:04:31 and yeah, these little things that they use to like test

1:04:34 things to kind of go that could be blood.

1:04:35 It's a. Presumptive test, yes.

1:04:37 It's not a definitive. Test so they were basically

1:04:39 video recording that going oh look see we found blood again.

1:04:41 That's blood. That's blood.

1:04:42 Blood. No, and it's.

1:04:44 But when they those all eventually went to the lab, they

1:04:47 weren't. No.

1:04:48 So that's on the video that, you know, Yeah.

1:04:50 Oh, there's blood everywhere in this house.

1:04:52 When actually, no, there was only this bit they found in the

1:04:54 bathroom. And this is the thing that was

1:04:55 presented to the jury when this eventually went to trial.

1:04:58 The jury believed that there was blood everywhere.

1:05:02 Yeah. And there actually there really

1:05:04 wasn't No the. OK, So what we're talking about

1:05:07 the blood evidence. Let's talk about the lack of

1:05:09 blood evidence. Yeah.

1:05:10 In Terry, in. Sorry, in Graham's car.

1:05:13 Yes, because. If Leanne had have been

1:05:15 bludgeoned to death like the crown are saying like the police

1:05:20 say she was bludgeoned to death in the bathroom now head we know

1:05:25 heads bleed Yes, there would have been so much blood.

1:05:28 We've already talked about it for that from the bathroom

1:05:30 situation. Where's the blood then?

1:05:32 That's leading out of the house. OK yes, they did find some blood

1:05:35 on the stairs again. It was like not even worth

1:05:39 noting really they found one droplet of blood in in green

1:05:43 three. I was 3 was.

1:05:45 Three, But again, they were. Regardless, that's fine.

1:05:48 If her body was decomposing in 40 degree 50° heat in that boot,

1:05:53 yeah, for two days you cannot. And her and she had her head

1:05:57 bludgeoned in. You cannot tell me that his boot

1:06:01 would not have been covered in blood evidence.

1:06:05 Wrapped in the shower, the curtain that had been put in the

1:06:07 bin and. Then he and then also what about

1:06:09 the black plastic bag that was supposedly placed under her?

1:06:13 Oh, I didn't know about that one.

1:06:14 So when her body was found, they found a black plastic bin liner.

1:06:22 Well, they what they didn't find was a shower curtain.

1:06:24 Yeah, they've actually, the cops have just made that.

1:06:26 Up, yeah, 100%, yeah. But but see then how did they

1:06:30 get the blood off the shower curtain if they're saying she

1:06:32 was wrapped in the shower, no. No, the shower curtain.

1:06:34 Oh was the one from the there? Was one, Yes.

1:06:36 So there was the one in the bathroom and that was hanging in

1:06:38 there. And that's what they found the

1:06:39 blood on in the bathroom. Yeah.

1:06:41 But what they're saying is that a couple weeks prior to all this

1:06:43 occurring, the shower curtain had been changed.

1:06:46 Yeah, One had been taken off and a new one had been put up.

1:06:48 So the old one that had been taken off had been put in a bin

1:06:51 weeks prior. I don't know how many, how much,

1:06:54 how often your bins get collected, but within a couple

1:06:56 of weeks, your bins gonna get collected.

1:06:58 But supposedly he rummaged all the way through that bin to the

1:07:00 bottom and got out that shower curtain had been thrown out and

1:07:04 wrapped her in that, but that's that's never been found.

1:07:07 But what they did find when they found her body was that there

1:07:10 was this black plastic bag, right?

1:07:12 This black plastic bin liner. And the exact same brand of bin

1:07:21 liner was found at the Holland household.

1:07:25 Because it's probably all you can buy at Franklin.

1:07:27 'S there were two of them. Two you could only buy 2.

1:07:29 Oh wow. One was green, one was black.

1:07:31 All right. And and were the black ones

1:07:33 cheaper? Probably I'm going to go with

1:07:36 yes, yeah, and but every fucking person.

1:07:41 In Goodna would have had them and they.

1:07:42 Could have had it. Every second person, if at

1:07:44 least. Yeah, that's it.

1:07:45 So that's not evidence. That's so.

1:07:47 That's but that was, but that was part they they presented

1:07:50 that in court, Yeah. And this is it.

1:07:52 All these things were presented as if they were facts when they

1:07:55 were actually, you know, yeah, circumstantial and put them

1:07:57 forward. But they should have been picked

1:07:59 apart, I guess more by a defense or I don't know, but they

1:08:03 shouldn't. Well, the blood certainly

1:08:04 certainly should have been presented the way it was.

1:08:06 No, that was not factual information.

1:08:08 So. But in terms of like the, yeah,

1:08:11 the bin liner and stuff, that's circumstantial and worth noting

1:08:15 that it's the same brand. But yeah, whether or not that's

1:08:17 then a closed case of like, you're done, mate.

1:08:20 I don't know about that. Now, the other evidence that the

1:08:23 Crown used was the tire mark. Yes.

1:08:26 Tire treads, yes. So what they actually did was

1:08:30 when the forensic officers attended the site where Leanne's

1:08:34 body was found, they took plaster casts of the tire

1:08:37 tracks. Yeah, that had been made when

1:08:40 what they assumed was the car that had dumped Leanne's body

1:08:43 there had. Driven.

1:08:44 And this is they're assuming that, too, like, because this is

1:08:47 an area that's people do travel around and it's.

1:08:49 Yeah. Yeah, I mean, as, as we said, it

1:08:51 was like 30 meters off the road, like it's not, it wasn't far,

1:08:53 no. So it's not like not many people

1:08:57 necessarily went there anyway. They took these plaster casts,

1:08:59 and what they did was they then made an imprint with those, with

1:09:03 those casts. They then got basically the car.

1:09:10 Well, they got Graham's car. They drove it over, made an

1:09:13 imprint with those time marks. And in court, they superimposed

1:09:18 one image on top of the other. And they were said to the jury,

1:09:21 see these match exactly. OK.

1:09:24 Yeah. What has come to light since is

1:09:30 that that's not actually true. So I'm what I'm saying is what

1:09:36 was presented in court and accepted as fact at the time is

1:09:40 not actually the truth. No, when further investigations

1:09:45 were made, and this was by an independent investigator who was

1:09:50 hired by Graham Stafford's family initially.

1:09:54 His name's Graham as well. Graham Crawley.

1:09:57 Crawley. Yeah, not to be mistaken with

1:09:58 his with Graham Stafford's now lawyer Joe Crawley.

1:10:02 I. Know it's just all these names

1:10:04 are just two weeks, but basically Graham Crawley has

1:10:09 originally he was hired by the Staffords to really go through

1:10:14 this because they, they believe in their heart of hearts that

1:10:17 Graham didn't do this and they needed some help.

1:10:20 So they enlisted Graham Crawley to to help with that.

1:10:25 And what he found is he, he did all of the investigations and he

1:10:29 what he found was that these tie marks were similar, but they

1:10:34 absolutely were not identical. And so that evidence is

1:10:40 essentially moot. Because the simple fact of the

1:10:42 matter is, any Holden Gemini would create a similar imprint.

1:10:48 They all have these same tires. It's all.

1:10:50 Very similar tires. Yeah, that's it.

1:10:52 It's very interesting that they've but other parts as.

1:10:56 Well, yeah, use those same tires.

1:10:58 Yeah, yeah. The other thing that's worth

1:11:01 noting is that Graham Graham Stafford was not a smoker.

1:11:08 No, he was not a smoker, no. So whereas we've got light, you

1:11:12 know, lighter marks, cigarette marks on the body.

1:11:15 Cigarette butts found around the body?

1:11:17 Yeah. Who smokes them?

1:11:18 Well, we'd know that if they'd pick them up.

1:11:20 Oh. Yeah, that's a fairpoint.

1:11:22 Sorry, I sound like I'm not happy with the police.

1:11:24 Yeah. Now the other crucial bit of

1:11:28 evidence that was used was the maggots.

1:11:31 The maggots. Now this one really spins me.

1:11:35 Same. So now a maggot was found in one

1:11:40 single magnet. Maggot was found in Graham

1:11:42 Crawley. Jesus.

1:11:44 Here we go see Graham Stafford. Graham Stafford.

1:11:47 Allegedly. Allegedly allegedly, according

1:11:50 to the police, they found a maggot in the boot of Graham

1:11:53 Stafford car. Now when that maggot was

1:11:56 collected, it was labeled. #3 Now, interestingly enough, when

1:12:01 it was first sighted in Graham's car, it wasn't collected.

1:12:04 No, they actually transported his car back to the forensics

1:12:08 lab at the police, whatever headquarters.

1:12:12 And only then did they collect this number, this maggot that

1:12:17 they labeled as #3 But anyway, sorry, go on.

1:12:21 Because then after #3 was found. Supposedly.

1:12:25 Allegedly. They found two more maggots at

1:12:30 the crime scene and they labeled them one and two, conveniently

1:12:35 enough. Isn't it what they've done if

1:12:37 they'd found three or four or five maggots there at the same

1:12:41 what? Sorry, what now?

1:12:44 The other thing interesting about these maggots, now I've

1:12:48 kind of deep dived into the science of maggots, which nice

1:12:50 so. Great.

1:12:51 It actually is amazing. It's really fascinating.

1:12:54 Really fascinating. Yeah.

1:12:56 So I mean, this supposedly this faggot was sitting in the boot

1:12:59 for how many days we talking? Three days, right?

1:13:01 4 By the time it got to the forensic slab, I think, yeah.

1:13:05 Now these are the two maggots. One and two had been sitting

1:13:09 with the body for that amount of time and the way they stay at

1:13:13 the time went, oh, they're a match.

1:13:14 They're obviously from the same decomposing body was because

1:13:17 they're at the same stage of growth.

1:13:20 Now maggots grow based on the temperature and the environment

1:13:25 they are in, food sources, all these sorts of things.

1:13:29 Now this lonely maggot in the boot didn't have much of A food

1:13:32 source where it was. Well, it did it.

1:13:34 It also would have had a lot hotter humid temperatures in

1:13:37 that boot. Maggots don't live, cannot

1:13:39 survive in temperatures above 40°, and it was supposedly alive

1:13:44 in the boot of this car. Yeah, fuck off.

1:13:46 And the same growth development as the ones were found outside

1:13:50 at the scene where the body was, where they had, they had food

1:13:52 source, all those sorts of things, and the temperature

1:13:55 would have been cooler. Now Graham Crawley, who is

1:13:59 freaking amazing, he waited until he could get 3 to 4 days

1:14:03 of the similar temperatures as what what went for those days,

1:14:07 which I mean, how often do you get the same temperatures

1:14:09 consistently in the same amount of days repeated at a different

1:14:12 time, a different year? Yeah, he went and found waited

1:14:15 for till he could get those sort of temperatures to do some tests

1:14:17 on this basically. And yeah, there is no way that

1:14:21 scientifically those maggots like could have been living in

1:14:25 different environments and be paired together as the same.

1:14:30 That's it. From the same batch, basically,

1:14:32 Yeah. So the entomologist that the

1:14:35 Crown used in giving evidence about these maggots was actually

1:14:39 given misinformation in doing her calculations.

1:14:42 So she was given what the Bureau of Meteorology said was the

1:14:46 temperature on that particular day.

1:14:49 We always know how accurate they are, yeah.

1:14:51 But also, what they gave was like, the temperature of the

1:14:54 region, not the temperature of the specifically Excite where,

1:14:58 yeah, Leanne body was found. Yeah.

1:15:01 So what Graham Crawley did was he actually found this

1:15:06 entomologist and asked her to recalculate.

1:15:10 So in her evidence was at trial was that Leanne more than likely

1:15:14 died on the at about. 4. 30 on the Monday, so between I think

1:15:18 she gave a window of about 5 hours on the Monday.

1:15:22 And this is based on all of what, how the maggots were all

1:15:26 that sort of stuff. When they found her, Graham

1:15:29 Crawley then gave her the actual temperature that was taken at

1:15:33 the time. So I mean, we're looking, we're

1:15:35 looking at these maggots as a reference of time to as a

1:15:40 reference for time of death. Yeah, because once a body is at

1:15:43 ambient temperature, there is no way to determine you can

1:15:47 determine the time of death. If you can get a core body

1:15:50 temperature on a, on a deceased person until they are at the

1:15:55 same temperature, until they are at ambient temperature, same

1:15:57 temperature as the, the, the surroundings.

1:16:01 Once they're at the same temperature as their

1:16:03 surroundings, you don't there's no way to find out what the time

1:16:06 of death was based on their temperature.

1:16:07 So that's why they go and look at, you know, flora and fauna

1:16:11 around the body. Yeah, it's always maggots

1:16:13 because maggots are generally present.

1:16:16 It's in such a short amount of time after a body has died like

1:16:20 that blew my mind as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:16:22 They know exactly when a maggot would have been present, when a

1:16:25 family would have laid the maggots.

1:16:27 And it's insane. It's absolutely insane.

1:16:30 But it it's a known science. Yeah.

1:16:33 It's not an exact science, no, but it gives a bit of a

1:16:37 ballpark. OK.

1:16:38 So Graham Crawley has then gone and asked her to recalculate

1:16:42 based on the temperature that he knows the ambient temperature of

1:16:45 where Leanne's body was found. And what she then concluded was

1:16:49 that Leanne actually probably died at around 10:30 on the

1:16:53 Tuesday. Where was where was Graham

1:16:56 Stafford at the time? Oh, he was at work.

1:16:59 Like proven to be at work and. Very, very much alibi that

1:17:03 entire day. And the next day, yeah.

1:17:05 And the next day, Yep. And the next day, Yep.

1:17:10 Basically from the time he got to work on the Tuesday morning,

1:17:15 he was with someone. Yep, until he was arrested.

1:17:18 Because this is the thing. On this Saturday.

1:17:20 He went to work on the Tuesday having absolutely no idea Leanne

1:17:23 was missing. No idea.

1:17:24 So he went to work that day, no question.

1:17:26 He actually even went to work on the Wednesday, even though he

1:17:29 knew that she was missing. He did go to work because there

1:17:32 were specific things needed to get done, but he also went so

1:17:34 that he could spread the word about Leanne in various other

1:17:37 places. So he was actively still trying

1:17:40 to help them. Finally, Anne, even though he

1:17:43 did go to work that Wednesday, but he was alibi for those.

1:17:46 So what the police say is that on the Thursday morning, they

1:17:50 say that Graham actually went and that's when she he dumped

1:17:54 the body before he went to work on the Thursday morning.

1:17:57 Now there's there's a few things wrong with that as well.

1:18:03 Yeah. So Graham did have a friend who

1:18:08 lived near the site where where Leanne's body was found.

1:18:11 It was about a kilometer before you get to where Leanne's body

1:18:15 was found. OK, as you drive from from their

1:18:19 home, he went to this friend's house because he actually wanted

1:18:25 to talk to him about Leanne being missing and he said he

1:18:29 wanted to talk to someone outside of the family.

1:18:31 This was one of his really good mates.

1:18:33 Yeah. And just to have a bit of a

1:18:35 debrief. Really saw this person as a

1:18:36 real. Mentor, kind of.

1:18:37 Yeah, he was a little older than Graham, but obviously a very

1:18:41 valued friend. Unfortunately, this friend was

1:18:45 actually babysitting his grandkids that day and he wasn't

1:18:48 at home. Yeah, So he can't corroborate

1:18:51 the the fact that Graham went to his house that morning.

1:18:53 What the police allege is that that's when Graham dumped the

1:18:56 body and then he went to work. Yeah.

1:18:59 And was at work. Like apparently he was 10

1:19:01 minutes late for work or something.

1:19:02 The. Only thing that I with the tire

1:19:04 impression too sort of comes into play a little bit here that

1:19:06 I cannot rule out in that Graham potentially knowing that Leanne

1:19:11 is missing as he was going to his friend's place.

1:19:14 It was so close to there. Would you not like kind?

1:19:17 Of like pull in there, why would you look?

1:19:19 There. Why wouldn't you look there?

1:19:20 Why would I mean, if you it's a it's a, you know, like AI don't

1:19:24 know wooded area like kind of thing.

1:19:25 Would you just like drive in just kind of go, oh, this could

1:19:27 be somewhere where, you know, someone could I don't know.

1:19:29 Is it possible he did pull in there and look for look for her?

1:19:32 Why wouldn't totally innocently? Why wouldn't he have just said

1:19:35 that he. Doesn't remember he did it, you

1:19:36 know what I mean? Like and this is the thing he

1:19:38 wasn't at the time thinking to himself, I'm being looked at as

1:19:41 a potential suspect. He's just thinking of his

1:19:43 girlfriend's sister's gone missing who is who always got

1:19:46 along with the with Leanne. There's everyone always says

1:19:49 that no matter what, whether they think he's guilty or not.

1:19:52 Prior to this, there was a very good relationship between Liana

1:19:56 to. Take her to concerts.

1:19:57 They went to the Kylie Minogue concert, I think.

1:19:59 She wanted to be Kylie Minogue, yeah.

1:20:02 They she took him, sorry. He took her to like 1 like a

1:20:06 rocker Stedford or something like that.

1:20:08 Apparently she used to wear his clothes as well, which sounds a

1:20:12 bit weird, but that he was, he is a very little man.

1:20:15 Yeah. Like he's I think he's 5 foot

1:20:17 two. Yeah, and he's very slight.

1:20:20 I think he weighs something like 57 kilos.

1:20:23 Leanne was 5 foot 2 when she was 12 and was missing.

1:20:26 So at weight effect significantly less.

1:20:29 I think she weighed about 40 kilos or something like that. 40

1:20:32 one killers maybe, yeah. But what I'm saying is even

1:20:35 physically for him to then carry her.

1:20:37 Yeah. Who's the same size as him?

1:20:41 That even doesn't make sense to me.

1:20:42 No, no, you know, absolutely. But yeah, no, I just, I feel

1:20:46 like it's just there's so many things if you want to go

1:20:48 circumstantial evidence, right, which is what the police have

1:20:51 done. I could also come back with it

1:20:53 and say that, yeah, you can't rule out the fact that his car

1:20:56 did pull in there at some stage. Yeah, Yep.

1:20:59 And but, but innocently so. I don't know.

1:21:02 That's just none of it adds up. None of it adds up, but

1:21:05 unfortunately when this went to trial, now this is another thing

1:21:08 actually. So this went to trial, Yes.

1:21:11 And literally Graham's court appointed lawyer was appointed 2

1:21:19 days before the trial began. Yeah.

1:21:21 How do you have time to investigate any of the facts,

1:21:24 Fact Check anything, come up with a case, come up with a

1:21:28 defence. You don't have time.

1:21:30 He was not given a fair. Go at it.

1:21:34 No way. No way.

1:21:35 He was not given a fair trial. You you can't dispute that, I

1:21:39 don't think at the end of the day, yeah, Especially when you

1:21:41 know that the blood stuff that was presented was presented

1:21:44 inaccurately. Well.

1:21:45 This is the thing that. I so.

1:21:47 I actually, if you look at you can read some of the court

1:21:52 transcripts, you can read. Oh, most of them actually.

1:21:55 Yeah, you can actually read like some of the brief of evidence.

1:21:58 There's some stuff that's redacted in there, but you can

1:22:01 read a fair bit of information in this case.

1:22:04 And honestly, when you read it, a lot of it, you're like, oh,

1:22:07 yeah, like he did do it. He absolutely did this.

1:22:10 Like, absolutely, yes, he did. But then when you find out that

1:22:14 once this evidence, so none of that evidence was ever actually

1:22:17 tested in court, it was accepted as fact.

1:22:21 His lawyers didn't challenge it, didn't investigate properly.

1:22:25 And So what the jury were presented with, this is in no

1:22:28 way the jury's fault. What the jury were presented

1:22:32 with, Yep, were facts that anyone would have convicted.

1:22:37 Graham Stafford, Yes. What?

1:22:39 And that's the thing, at the end of the day, they were just

1:22:41 presented. They were presented with things

1:22:43 as fact that weren't. Yeah.

1:22:44 And So what they were presented with, Yeah.

1:22:47 Within three hours, they turned around and they said guilty.

1:22:50 Yep. Because and I can understand

1:22:52 that they are not at fault here. This is this is the cops fault.

1:22:57 Yeah, this is and then comes down to the prosecution as well

1:22:59 of going with it and illegally. I think presenting a case that

1:23:03 was not factual that unfortunately then his defense

1:23:08 attorney was not an on top of enough to go whoa, whoa, whoa,

1:23:13 let's get this back on track. And that's not accurate.

1:23:15 And This is why. And, you know, do all they

1:23:17 should have done in the courtroom and, you know, pulled

1:23:19 apart what the prosecution were putting forward to defend him as

1:23:23 he should have had that defence. 100%.

1:23:26 So yeah, unfortunately he was convicted.

1:23:29 So in on the 25th of March 1992, he was convicted of the murder

1:23:33 of Leanne. He was sentenced to a minimum of

1:23:35 15 years to life in prison, which I mean he just vehemently

1:23:41 denied from the get go that he was not involved and didn't do

1:23:44 it. He appealed the conviction.

1:23:48 This is, and this gets me, that his first appeal was just

1:23:51 dismissed entirely by the Queensland court in March 93.

1:23:56 The High Court refused special leave to appeal any further.

1:24:01 Then he waited until 1997 before he could put forward a second

1:24:06 appeal. At that appeal, 2 judges said

1:24:10 dismissed it. A third judge.

1:24:13 So Tony Fitzgerald was his name now.

1:24:16 He believed that Stafford had been convicted on evidence which

1:24:22 was presented A significantly mistaken version of events.

1:24:26 Bingo. He's on it.

1:24:28 Two against one. Two against one.

1:24:30 He didn't he didn't get over. So he got he lost that appeal.

1:24:33 But Tony Fitzgerald was always, he was onto it.

1:24:36 He could see what was wrong here.

1:24:37 And it's such a shame that the other two judges did not pick up

1:24:41 on what he picked up on because he then, I mean, poor Graham

1:24:47 Stafford then sat in jail to until 2006 where he went on, he

1:24:51 was on parole. So because he was model

1:24:53 prisoner. Apparently the correctional

1:24:55 officers just. He actually got 4 letters of

1:25:00 recommendation from different correctional officers upon

1:25:04 leaving on for parole. Yeah, When he hit that parole

1:25:07 period, there was no question as to whether or not he was ready

1:25:12 for parole. Like there was no talk of, oh,

1:25:14 you know, like, should he or shouldn't he get out?

1:25:16 They were. He's ready to go.

1:25:18 There's nothing here to be seen. He was out actually prior to the

1:25:22 15 years being like, because they're just trying to climatize

1:25:24 them to getting back out into the community and stuff.

1:25:26 So he was actually out on parole and it was slightly before 15

1:25:29 years, but he was just being watched carefully and starting

1:25:33 to get a job and all those sorts of things.

1:25:35 And so whilst that was occurring, he he managed to

1:25:37 actually get in a third appeal in a couple of years after he

1:25:40 was on parole. And it was until that appeal

1:25:43 that finally they stepped up and said that, yeah, Tony Fitzgerald

1:25:48 was right and this was a miscarriage of justice and that

1:25:51 it should be a retrial. So yeah, this is this is the

1:25:55 thing though, they haven't exonerated him.

1:25:57 No, it's just been quashed. It's been quashed and a retrial

1:26:00 ordered ordered. But then the DPP have said that

1:26:03 they are not going to pursue another trial against him.

1:26:06 You tell me why? Because there's no fucking

1:26:08 evidence to do it to actually convict him.

1:26:11 But what? What shit for Graham about that?

1:26:16 Oh so much shit. So much shit.

1:26:18 I mean, the fact that he was in prison at all, but he's now in

1:26:21 limbo. Oh, he's not an innocent man,

1:26:24 but he's not convicted of the crime.

1:26:28 Yeah, but he could at any moment be.

1:26:30 Done 15 years in. Jail, but he could at any moment

1:26:34 be tried again for her murder. And if he was tried, though, and

1:26:37 he got 15 years, he's already done those 15 years.

1:26:41 Yeah. So then he even if you it just

1:26:45 does my it actually fucks with my brain the thought of him

1:26:48 going through another trial and whether to.

1:26:50 Then not serve enough to. Not serve another day either.

1:26:53 He gets convicted again, which I mean, at the end of the day, I

1:26:55 honestly don't know. I don't know who did this.

1:26:57 So it let's say he gets convicted and all that they do

1:27:00 line up all the dots on these circumstantial evidence and they

1:27:02 get there and he does get convicted for what end?

1:27:05 He's already done the time, OK. Or the alternative, he's not

1:27:09 given innocent at this. He's given not guilty.

1:27:12 Not guilty. That's not innocence.

1:27:15 Look, this has absolutely fucked his life because you know, he

1:27:19 was in prison for the years where he could have potentially

1:27:21 gotten married and had children. 43 when he left jail.

1:27:27 Yeah, 43 so he's lost, you know, the majority of his life to

1:27:32 like, I don't know, start a family, all those sorts of

1:27:34 things. I mean, kids have kids are the

1:27:35 43 year old man. But I mean, but yeah, Mike, who

1:27:38 wants to start children as 43 year old?

1:27:41 You know, I mean, luckily for him, he has met a beautiful

1:27:44 partner and that's fine. All that that's great for him.

1:27:48 But I mean, he's lost so much of his life.

1:27:51 It's insane. And for what?

1:27:53 Like because we don't even know still if he did it.

1:27:57 And this is the thing that gets me, because at the end of the

1:28:01 day, we need we. This is our society, our our

1:28:05 justice system. We need to find who murdered

1:28:08 this girl. This in absolute, in the most

1:28:12 brutal of manners. Yeah, that's what.

1:28:14 Gets somebody out there potentially is walking around

1:28:18 having committed this crime and is not paying the price for it

1:28:22 and. Who do we pay as society to find

1:28:26 that person? The police, are they trying to

1:28:30 find who did this? Are they trying to prosecute

1:28:32 Graham Stafford? Nope, they're not doing anything

1:28:37 about. That that's the thing.

1:28:38 That's the thing. Should we go through some other

1:28:42 suspects? Yeah, let's, because there's

1:28:44 plenty of them. There's plenty of them.

1:28:47 So who would we like to start with?

1:28:49 Let's start with Sean Mcfederan. Oh yeah, So Sean, this.

1:28:55 One's. Oh my God.

1:28:56 So Sean Mcfederan is in jail for killing a girl, a 12 year old

1:29:04 girl by the name of Julianne Lowe on the 16th of October in

1:29:07 1991, literally three weeks after Leanne's murder.

1:29:12 Yeah, in Goodna. Yeah.

1:29:13 Now just. Out of?

1:29:14 Yeah, just out of. Yeah, what is the likelihood

1:29:17 that 212 year olds are murdered in the same area by two

1:29:21 different people? Coincidence.

1:29:23 I don't know. Yeah, it was 900 meters away

1:29:26 from where Leanne's body was found.

1:29:28 Leanne knew this guy too. Yep, so knew this guy.

1:29:31 She, Sean, lived at the caravan park where Leanne would go and

1:29:37 hang out with Trisha. Yep, they would kick the footy

1:29:39 together. They hung out.

1:29:41 They knew each other. You know he lived in a tent.

1:29:43 Yeah, yeah, He lived down a bit further off out of the caravan

1:29:47 park on the Creek because he was known to be very unusual.

1:29:50 His mum and dad had kicked him out of their family home because

1:29:53 he was dangerous. Well, during his trial for for

1:29:58 Julianne, his mum actually alleges that he committed his

1:30:03 first murder when he was 4. 3 Three years of age, he drowned

1:30:07 his brother Jason in the bath. I mean it's not proven, but

1:30:10 that's what the mum claims. But what I mean, OK, this kind

1:30:14 of look, yes, maybe this happened, but there wasn't an

1:30:19 adult present when there was a baby and a 3/4 year old in the

1:30:24 bath. What the mum says is she, the

1:30:28 dad actually came into the bathroom because he heard some

1:30:32 splashing sounds and Sean had actually gone to gotten out of

1:30:37 the bath and gone to the toilet. And when the dad went into the

1:30:40 bathroom, the little brother Jason was deceased in the bath,

1:30:46 had drowned in the bath and they tried to perform CPR in him and

1:30:50 to no avail. Yeah, I know.

1:30:54 I'm kind of like. 3 or 4 like to me.

1:30:57 They they basically trying to claim here that he's like, you

1:30:58 know, this, this born born evil devil child, but I mean, or did

1:31:03 that that episode fuck him up entirely.

1:31:06 That's it. And then he and it created.

1:31:08 Was this the trauma that that triggered it all?

1:31:10 The catalyst for all of this? Yeah, his mum claims that he had

1:31:14 catalogues of pornographic materials from when he was quite

1:31:17 a young, young boy. If he if there was no toilet

1:31:23 paper in the bathroom, he'd use towels and just leave them on

1:31:26 the floor for his mum to clean up.

1:31:28 Oh, God. Apparently he only had two

1:31:31 friends, really. And none of them, they're both

1:31:35 male, none of them female. Yeah, he was diagnosed as a

1:31:39 chronic psychotic schizophrenic. This is I believe after.

1:31:43 The after the murder, yeah. When he was aged 6.

1:31:48 Now this is actually proven like this was for real.

1:31:52 Happened when he was six years of age.

1:31:54 He was in grade one at school and he tried to strangle a girl.

1:31:57 Classmates tried to pry him off of her but couldn't.

1:32:01 Someone went and got a teacher and the teacher physically was

1:32:06 able to separate them, but apparently he was close to

1:32:10 killing this girl. Yeah.

1:32:12 That's at the age of 6. That's.

1:32:14 Freaking awful. He worked as a trolley collector

1:32:18 for a local, I don't know if it was Franklin's or not, but at

1:32:21 the local supermarket, yeah. And he was diligent about going

1:32:26 to work. He went to work every day except

1:32:30 the Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday that Leanne went

1:32:34 missing. Interesting.

1:32:37 Now, the police so didn't interview him, didn't look at

1:32:41 him at the time, because as even when Julianne's body showed up,

1:32:46 even at that point, which is only three weeks later, they

1:32:50 still didn't question him really around Leanne's death.

1:32:52 And the reason for that being that, oh, but he drowned

1:32:56 Julianne, and Leanne wasn't drowned.

1:32:58 Leanne was blood. So therefore different MO's a

1:33:00 different person. Now we know from psychological

1:33:04 profiling. Now again, not an exact science,

1:33:07 but it absolutely gives a an idea and a very.

1:33:12 Pretty good, pretty good idea. That you don't actually.

1:33:18 A serial killer or somebody who murders more than one person

1:33:21 doesn't need to have the same MO in terms of method of killing.

1:33:27 It'll be the motivation behind it in.

1:33:28 Fact. They're both 12 year old girls.

1:33:30 Yep. All the motivation behind it.

1:33:32 Psychosexual. Same thing with Julianne.

1:33:34 Yep, what the fuck? Yeah, what the actual fuck.

1:33:38 But no, you know, was never really looked into.

1:33:42 Just a really interesting little tidbit.

1:33:45 One of his two friends drove a red Torana sedan, very similar

1:33:52 in size to a red Gemini. Yeah, so probably similar.

1:33:56 Tires. Similar tires.

1:33:57 On that. Just an interesting thing to

1:34:01 note. Just just interesting, you

1:34:02 think? Oh.

1:34:07 Man. Next, we've got Mark Thomas

1:34:09 Noble. Yes.

1:34:11 So he was an alcoholic, chronic alcoholic.

1:34:14 He had killed someone in the past with a hammer and an axe.

1:34:19 Yes. He was an ex man, an ex

1:34:21 housemate or current at the time housemate.

1:34:25 Apparently he went to bed after he did it and then only the next

1:34:28 morning rang the authorities to say oh come just dead in my in

1:34:33 my lounge room. I mean I should do.

1:34:35 He also killed a female near a rubbish dump just South of

1:34:39 Brisbane. And this was somebody who was

1:34:41 not known to him. Yeah, he lived in Goodna.

1:34:45 He was around at the time. So the reason he became he was

1:34:50 on their radar though, was that it wasn't until 2005, I think it

1:34:55 was a girlfriend, an ex-girlfriend of, OF I'm Noble

1:35:00 who came forward, who finally felt that she could come forward

1:35:04 because he was in jail, because, I mean, he was a very scary

1:35:07 bloke. I don't, I don't hold that

1:35:08 against this person whatsoever. She was very scared for her

1:35:11 safety. So once he was in jail and been

1:35:14 there for an extended period of time, she felt comfortable to

1:35:16 come forward. And she reported to the police

1:35:18 that he was extremely violent, drug addict, alcoholic, all

1:35:22 those things. And he would brag about killing

1:35:26 a girl in the western suburbs of Brisbane near some beehives.

1:35:31 Now, no one had released to the public at any point, but there

1:35:35 was a beehive nearby where Leanne's body was found.

1:35:39 But no one in the public knew that.

1:35:41 So there was interesting information that came forward

1:35:44 from her that connected really him to that murder potentially.

1:35:49 Again, never interviewed. The third is known as by many

1:35:56 different aliases actually. So in the podcast, he's referred

1:36:00 to as Pedophile Pete. The police referred to him as

1:36:02 Steven. So there's lots of different

1:36:05 ways that this person is referred to and.

1:36:07 Motherfucker is one way to describe him too.

1:36:09 Yeah. So this.

1:36:10 Motherfucker was actually a police informant and he would

1:36:16 like have the cops over to his house, beers, barbecues, he'd go

1:36:20 to their place. I believe his children would

1:36:23 have sleepovers at the police officers homes with their

1:36:26 children. It was all very like, you know,

1:36:30 intertwined. Apparently that he was friends

1:36:32 with Terry Holland. He was and he was.

1:36:35 Take Leanne on drives occasionally.

1:36:38 Yep. Too Now this man is a career

1:36:42 criminal. 40 years worth of offenses he from stealing

1:36:47 firearms offences, sexual offences, violence and incest.

1:36:53 Yep, he wasn't jailed for that until 1996.

1:36:57 So it's after Leanne's murder. However, he was informing and

1:37:01 assisting the police in Leanne's case.

1:37:05 Why? I I don't know.

1:37:07 He was at the crime scene when her body was found.

1:37:10 He was given the photos of her deceased body.

1:37:15 And he took him home. And threatened his daughter with

1:37:17 them. So this is what happens to

1:37:18 little girls who don't do what they're told.

1:37:21 What the? Fuck what the fuck.

1:37:24 He's also stood or Stan stood trial for raping his 12 year old

1:37:30 granddaughter. He lived in the same St. as the

1:37:36 Holland's Bailey St. So this is before they moved to

1:37:39 Ellis St. So where Graham was helping them

1:37:41 move. Yeah, Graham Stafford was

1:37:43 helping them move. He lived next door to them in

1:37:46 that previous residence. So they're very well known to

1:37:49 one another because he was also, like, big drinker and all of

1:37:53 that stuff, too. He and Terry certainly hung

1:37:56 around each other a fair bit. Yeah.

1:37:58 And you, you know, saw a lot of each other socially.

1:38:02 His daughter says that she endured horrendous sexual abuse

1:38:08 and not sorry, not only sexual abuse, but physical abuse.

1:38:13 He would burn cigarettes into her arms.

1:38:16 He would use lighters. She said about the burning of

1:38:20 her though. So one stage, what he would

1:38:23 regularly say to her is he would burn her on the thigh, which is

1:38:27 where Leanne had burn marks. And his words to her at the time

1:38:31 where this is the best place, place to burn little girls

1:38:33 because it opens their legs the fastest.

1:38:37 Now, if you can imagine, yes, if you put a light on someone's

1:38:39 leg, the first thing you're going to do is pull your leg

1:38:41 away from that. And it.

1:38:43 Well, yeah, I guess that is what that does.

1:38:45 Not intentionally to allow someone access, though.

1:38:50 But that's what he told his daughter.

1:38:52 And that they are they align with the kinds of burns that

1:38:55 were found on Leanne. His daughters does not ignore.

1:39:03 His daughters also said that where Leanne's body was found is

1:39:07 where quite often they would get taken to be raped and assaulted

1:39:12 by him. There's just, I mean, between

1:39:16 him and Sean, this to me, those two agreed.

1:39:20 I put them as frontrunners and I can't pick a winner.

1:39:23 Yeah, same. They're they're both absolutely

1:39:27 horrific human beings. Are they even human?

1:39:31 Yeah. Apparently the police sent this

1:39:36 bloke, pedophile Pete, Stephen, whatever you want to call him,

1:39:40 to Terry's house after Leanne went missing to see if he would,

1:39:43 you know, tell him made any special information that he

1:39:46 might know that he wouldn't otherwise tell the police.

1:39:49 Gross. The police knew he was raping

1:39:52 his daughters. Are you fucking kidding me?

1:39:56 Yeah. They never questioned him.

1:39:58 I. This is where I kind of go I

1:40:00 there's none of this whole story makes sense and the only part of

1:40:03 it kind of does is that the police were looking after

1:40:06 someone who did these kinds of acts.

1:40:09 They knew who he was and what he did.

1:40:12 If they were having barbecues with him and hanging out with

1:40:15 him like he's a mate. Now you they can say all they

1:40:19 like, oh, we were doing that to get information.

1:40:21 I don't give a shit. There's Who would want to spend

1:40:24 time with a person like that? There is.

1:40:26 There are so many other ways to get information out of someone.

1:40:29 Yeah. And pretending like you're best

1:40:30 friends with them? Absolutely fuck off.

1:40:33 Yeah. Fuck off.

1:40:34 I can't have it. Cannot.

1:40:35 No. I think it's absolutely

1:40:37 disgusting that he was involved in any aspect of this.

1:40:40 It's in the way the way the police absolutely stand there

1:40:43 and go. Oh, yeah, yeah, he was.

1:40:45 He did not. Who did that?

1:40:46 We're helping out. Yeah, what the hell?

1:40:49 Absolutely. What the hell?

1:40:50 Just fuck off. So the other thing that police

1:40:54 have done with this that like massive question marks over is

1:40:58 after they released well after he was it was the conviction was

1:41:03 quashed and they were looking at would they retrial Graham, they

1:41:08 the police did a review of the case.

1:41:12 Now that review, they completed it and came out and said our

1:41:16 review has been concluded and we stand by the fact that Graham,

1:41:20 Graham, Stafford did it. Now they can't do that.

1:41:22 That's for the courts to decide. They can sort of point

1:41:25 directions of like. 100% they can who they think yeah should

1:41:28 be charged this retrial or whatever.

1:41:30 Yep. And charged with something, but

1:41:32 that's not their job. But also then where is this

1:41:37 report? Oh, we're not allowed to.

1:41:39 See it? No one was given access to it

1:41:41 until randomly one day they decided to leak it to channel 7.

1:41:46 Now, from what I've heard, literally 12 people had access

1:41:53 to this report. Yeah, so one of 12 people, Yep,

1:42:00 has released this to the media. They purposely did that.

1:42:04 Of course they did. The police purposely did that.

1:42:08 And not only that, Channel 7 have really botched it when

1:42:14 they've gone down this case. They've taken the cops line of

1:42:18 that Graham stuff. It's the guilty party here.

1:42:20 The journalism in that that I don't even know what to call it.

1:42:24 It was disgusting the way they sat him there, Oh my God, and

1:42:29 said to him and badgered him around doing a polygraph on

1:42:35 live, kind of, you know, seeing their lives national TV.

1:42:37 Yep. And he, rightly so, Graham

1:42:40 Stafford declined and they basically declared that meant

1:42:43 that he was guilty. Now.

1:42:44 I'm sorry. There's no fucking way that you

1:42:48 should be saying yes to that. OK, what?

1:42:50 If you're gonna take one thing from this podcast, don't ever do

1:42:54 a lie detector test, regardless of your guilt or innocence.

1:42:58 Yeah. Don't ever do one.

1:42:59 Lawyer up and say no to the. Polygraph.

1:43:01 Yeah, like 100%. And but he, Graham Stafford had

1:43:05 actually phoned his lawyer. Yeah.

1:43:07 And said to his lawyer, what do I do?

1:43:09 They want me to do this, What do you think?

1:43:10 And his lawyer was like, fuck no, no, don't do it.

1:43:13 Yes, no, number one, they're not admissible in court.

1:43:18 And #2 like there's so many variances and factors.

1:43:21 We don't know who the polygraph operator is.

1:43:23 Just no, it's, it's just a no. Why would you put yourself in

1:43:26 that position? Absolutely.

1:43:28 There's no way. So he did the right thing and

1:43:30 say no. But they've aired this and, you

1:43:32 know, trying to make him look guilty.

1:43:33 And it just does. It actually makes like if you

1:43:36 knew nothing else about it, it does make you look guilty.

1:43:39 So it's very biased journalism. It's.

1:43:41 Incredibly. But so that basically

1:43:44 Gravesteva's lawyers since have just been absolutely like, well,

1:43:47 show us this report. Tell us what you know you've

1:43:49 got, what's the evidence you've got so we can look into it and

1:43:51 like, you know, work on this or whatever.

1:43:55 They don't, they will not produce it.

1:43:56 What they have produced to them is so redacted.

1:44:00 Why do the person who's claiming he's done this need it to be

1:44:03 redacted like it's an absolute? Fuck, it just is showing that

1:44:09 it's not an open and transparent process.

1:44:11 And oddly enough, the DPP have looked at it and gone, Yeah,

1:44:14 well, we're not going to retry him.

1:44:15 It's not worth it. Is.

1:44:16 That because the evidence isn't there.

1:44:19 Well, the evidence hasn't been tested.

1:44:21 That's the biggest problem, right?

1:44:23 If if the police had have done their job properly and tested

1:44:26 the evidence, they would have come to that natural conclusion

1:44:29 themselves. Yes, and this is the thing.

1:44:31 If Graham Stafford did do this, even if he did, the policing was

1:44:37 so poor that you can't convict him.

1:44:40 He has been convicted, which is the the shit part of this.

1:44:43 Whether he did it or not, he shouldn't have been convicted.

1:44:45 He was convicted on false. Evidence, yeah.

1:44:49 So no. Matter what?

1:44:49 Whether it did actually, if nothing else.

1:44:52 Yeah, that judge put it really well of like, you know,

1:44:56 mistaken, significantly mistaken, factual.

1:44:59 Information. Information, yeah.

1:45:01 Yeah, the way he worded I thought was, yeah, yeah, it's

1:45:04 that's the thing. It's been presented as fact when

1:45:06 it wasn't. So that's where the crux of this

1:45:08 issue is. Whether or not he did do it or

1:45:10 not, you can't convict him on that.

1:45:13 The poor jury feel, well, we know there's one juror

1:45:15 particularly, yeah, but he's come out and said like, if I'd

1:45:19 known this, there's no way you would convict him.

1:45:22 So he he says, he says I, I put him in there.

1:45:25 Yeah. I'm going to now do everything I

1:45:27 can. Now that I know what I know, I'm

1:45:28 going to do everything I can to get him exonerated.

1:45:30 Because knowing what I know now, I would never have convicted

1:45:34 him. I would never have said he

1:45:35 would. He was guilty.

1:45:36 Yeah. That's the only thing that

1:45:40 Graham Stafford can take away from this now, but at least he

1:45:42 knows this one person who was on the jury who would.

1:45:46 And I'm sure, I'm sure that all of them, if they knew it, if

1:45:49 they saw it again or if they've. You never followed this case at

1:45:53 all. Yeah, they'd feel the same way.

1:45:55 Yeah, yeah. Which again, I will say I I'm

1:45:58 not, it doesn't make me 100% convinced he didn't do it, but

1:46:02 the evidence, I'm just like the evidence isn't there in the way

1:46:05 it's being presented. Yeah, I.

1:46:08 Can't convince you what you've got.

1:46:09 I personally don't think he did it.

1:46:10 I've got. I don't know.

1:46:13 I really don't. Think I don't know.

1:46:15 I honestly just don't know. And The thing is there is two

1:46:18 other people that I literally as equally or probably more so put

1:46:22 into the category. Because the other thing with

1:46:23 with Graham Stafford, that is the biggest thing that for me

1:46:27 that says he didn't do this is that he's never done it again.

1:46:31 He has no priors. There's no criminal history for

1:46:35 him, no criminal since he is. If you look at the yeah

1:46:40 behaviour of this and psychology of it, that's not normal.

1:46:44 Whereas these other two fucktards that we've.

1:46:46 They've mentioned escalations of behaviour.

1:46:48 They've hit all of those marks that have a true psychopath and

1:46:52 a true. Serial, yeah, and some of their

1:46:54 cases could murder someone this sadistically.

1:46:57 There's no way they haven't either done stuff prior, all do

1:47:01 stuff again. That man went into prison and

1:47:04 came out as you know that everyone said model prisoner.

1:47:08 He's never done anything ever since all prior.

1:47:12 The biggest thing he's ever had is bloody speeding ticket.

1:47:15 I think he got a ticket for not wearing a seat belt once or

1:47:18 something like that's the worst. The worst thing?

1:47:20 Yeah, who hasn't? Like seriously, it's insane that

1:47:24 we're pinning this on someone who has done nothing to say that

1:47:29 he's done this other than be in that house.

1:47:31 Yeah. And when there's two other

1:47:34 psychopaths right next door. Yeah, yeah.

1:47:38 I, oh, look, I, I, my gut feeling is that Graham had

1:47:42 nothing to do with it. Yeah, I think you have those two

1:47:46 frontrunners that we discussed. Absolutely.

1:47:49 I think there's definitely a lot more investigation that needs to

1:47:52 happen there. Yeah, and I mean, both of them

1:47:57 are in prison at the moment. Yeah, we know at least something

1:47:59 They. Are.

1:48:00 At least that's something. Yes, let's.

1:48:02 I believe Noble is dead. Noble is dead.

1:48:06 He died in 2017. Yeah, yeah.

1:48:08 So I think what really needs to, I think what really needs to

1:48:13 happen is in this case is it needs to go to a coronial

1:48:17 inquest. This is the.

1:48:18 Thing and we need to then go based on whatever comes of that

1:48:23 and pursue that line because I feel like that's the only way

1:48:28 we're going to get any form of justice for Leanne in this.

1:48:31 This is the thing she kind of gets forgotten.

1:48:33 Yeah, which is awful, but then and I but I also do equally put

1:48:37 like Graham stuff. He's innocent of this.

1:48:40 He spent 15 years in jail for something he didn't do.

1:48:43 There's absolutely 2 victims here.

1:48:45 Yeah. I think Graham Stafford is also

1:48:48 a victim of circumstance in this case.

1:48:51 And I feel for him. Yeah, I really do.

1:48:54 I like my worst. One of my worst fears,

1:48:57 especially before I had children, one of my worst fears

1:48:59 was going to jail for something I didn't do.

1:49:01 Really. Yeah.

1:49:02 Because I think about, because I just think, and this is what

1:49:06 happened with him. He kind of trusted the process.

1:49:09 His mom and dad trusted the process.

1:49:10 And they're like when he got arrested, we're like, oh, it'll

1:49:12 be fine. They'll figure out that it's not

1:49:14 right and it'll be fine. No, he fucking spent 15 years in

1:49:18 prison. Yeah.

1:49:19 For something he didn't, I strongly believe he didn't do.

1:49:24 Yeah. Like it's so unfair.

1:49:26 And he hasn't been given any compensation.

1:49:28 No, no, he hasn't been like, given a pardon.

1:49:32 He hasn't. No, this one formally

1:49:33 apologised, but it doesn't mean that he's then still, he's still

1:49:36 is limbo. He's guilty, not guilty.

1:49:39 And people will still think he's done it. 100% So this is the

1:49:43 thing and. There are people who do.

1:49:45 And as I think it was the judge on that, that under

1:49:47 investigation who said like even if he went to a retrial and he

1:49:50 got a no, not guilty, which he was like he believed he would

1:49:53 get not guilty. He said that's not really gonna

1:49:55 fix it for you because there's still gonna be people who

1:49:57 believe that you did it. Yeah.

1:49:59 It's not innocent. It's not guilty.

1:50:00 That's it. So it's unfortunately he will

1:50:03 live the rest of. His life, it's the unreasonable

1:50:04 doubt in a court of law. Yeah, you know, And there's so

1:50:07 much reasonable doubt in there. Oh, absolutely.

1:50:10 It's like, if nothing else, if nothing else, yeah, yeah, it's

1:50:14 it's so it's shit. And yeah, just to bring it back

1:50:16 to Leanne, I mean, that poor girl, she was 12 years old and

1:50:20 to have been to have gone through what she went through

1:50:22 and there's to know that the justice for that has not

1:50:25 occurred. And someone that she, you know,

1:50:29 really liked him. She was like, you know, he was,

1:50:31 I mean, he missed his relationship with Melissa.

1:50:33 We don't know whether they would have ended up together or not as

1:50:36 a future, Who knows? I mean, it's a whole life that's

1:50:39 been affected. It's not just and.

1:50:41 Then his life. Harry and Melissa's life.

1:50:43 Yeah. And Craig until he passed away.

1:50:47 Exactly, you know. How much, how much they've like

1:50:49 this is just, it's ruined so many people's lives.

1:50:52 Yeah, and unfortunately, probably not as much of the

1:50:56 person who did this as it should have.

1:50:58 No, I think because the person who did this is likely some kind

1:51:01 of psychopath. Yeah.

1:51:04 And look, yeah, they're potentially in jail, but not for

1:51:07 this. Yeah, and that's the thing.

1:51:09 Yeah, yeah. I know Sean Mcfederan is

1:51:12 unlikely to ever get out. He's only been in psychiatric

1:51:15 wards and stuff like that because he's, yeah, he was.

1:51:18 I think at one stage he was deemed as not capable of sitting

1:51:21 trial because of his mental state.

1:51:23 That's right. Yeah.

1:51:24 So I think he'll he'll be institutionalized.

1:51:28 Otherwise, but that other. Pedophile Pete, Steven, whatever

1:51:31 we want to call him. Yeah, I believe he was only

1:51:35 serving 6. Years.

1:51:37 That actually rings a bell. I think it is 6 years that he

1:51:39 was in for and that was it. So he could be out soon.

1:51:42 That's scary. Yeah.

1:51:44 Which is so I can't believe that people only get that for what he

1:51:47 did. And that the multiple, like his

1:51:50 daughter was saying that he would perpetrate sexual violence

1:51:54 upon her and her sister. Yeah, like every week or two.

1:52:02 It's just horrible. I can't believe anyway, my

1:52:08 goodness. But yeah, let's keep Leanne in

1:52:12 our thoughts. I think we really need to keep

1:52:14 Graham Stafford in our thoughts and they're both of their

1:52:17 families and the impact that this has had so far reaching and

1:52:22 let's hope that coronial inquest happens because that's what

1:52:26 actually needs to happen to bring some justice to this.

1:52:29 I just wish they'd picked up those goddamn cigarette butts.

1:52:32 Fucking I know. I reckon we'd have an answer.

1:52:34 Yep. Like maybe not at the time, but

1:52:36 now we would. Yeah, yeah.

1:52:38 Agreed. Agreed.

1:52:41 All right, All right, next week there.

1:52:43 Next week we're covering the Sherry Papini case.

1:52:46 I've zero knowledge of this case.

1:52:47 I love. That I'm like, I've just watched

1:52:50 the Netflix stucco. So yeah, yeah, I've got that

1:52:54 context, but I've done no further research, right.

1:52:57 There's there's a bit, a bit in that a bit.

1:53:00 I'm interested. I have googled it, but I'm like,

1:53:02 which I'm like, oh God, I gotta see.

1:53:03 Yeah, it is. Yeah, yeah.

1:53:05 Literally read like 2 lines of like what sort of the case is

1:53:07 like. But yeah, that's it.

1:53:09 That's all I know of this, so I'm very excited to dive in.

1:53:12 Very good. Well, thank you to everybody for

1:53:14 joining us for our first episode of 2026.

1:53:19 So exciting. Oh.

1:53:20 Yes, but this? This year up for a big year.

1:53:23 Yeah, it's gonna be wonderful. Thank you for being here with

1:53:26 us. Come and check us out at TikTok

1:53:27 so we're not alone. So we're not just posting like

1:53:31 no one, no one. Thanks guys.

1:53:35 Thanks take your is crime besties.

1:53:37 Bye.