Episode 74 - The Mysterious Case of Sherri Papini: Truth or Deception?

0:15 Welcome back to Crime Besties to episode #74, our second of 2026. Here we are. Yeah, we're here. We're doing this. That's great. Oh my God, It's been a bit of a bit of a slog to get here. We've had dog issues, we've had computer issues. Dog. Issues I get over 'cause she's way too cute so it's fine she's. Cute, but she she's been a bit annoying tonight, but anyway, that's OK. All the trials and tribulations of having a having a puppy that's. It and producer Pete's decided to piss off to the soccer and we've had to schedule this recording for at night time because it's bloody school holidays.

0:50 So be appreciative people. We're doing our best. We're doing our best. If you hear shit in the background, it is what it is what it is. How dare pet producer Pete want to have a good time? I mean, it's just rude. It's. Actually just really rude. Very, very rude. How has your week been? Busy, I mean it's school holidays. We have done everything these last few days. I'm I want to know like 3 full on days of just full on school holiday fun. We've had pools with water slides, we've had farm excursions, we've had God, what else have we been doing?

1:27 I've forgotten and everything been the beach, the Lotus. We started. Lotus Gardens, yes, that was great yeah, we've done all sorts of stuff and golf, mini golf, all of it done both love it yeah God no. It's been a full on few days of jam packed fun and hilarity, losing children and. And exhaustion at the end of those days, you're gonna be like, oh, fuck, how did, how do I do this? Oh. I know yesterday was a huge day. I mean, I think picked up my little one from here after a sleepover as well, you know, and headed off to down to the beach way to go to a farm thing for the day, which I think we've got here about 8:30 in the morning and we get home, home until God, I had to win 7:00 at night.

2:06 Oh, that's a massive day. Yeah. I have to say, though, he was awesome for the sleepover. I reckon they were asleep by about 9:00, maybe. Maybe 9:30. Yeah, but he slept. So I went to BFT yesterday morning. So I was up at 5:20 and Lucas heard me and he got up. I think he was so excited that Brody was here. And I'm like, mate, just try and be quiet. Like Brody sleepless. Yeah, yeah. Let Brody sleep as long as he can. I got home from BFT at 7:15. He was still asleep. Oh, he was telling me all the details of your morning of how and we'd been to BFT and then Peter had cooked this and then Peter done this and then Emma don't get done that.

2:41 And like I got the full rundown. Yeah, there's no secret. I know that was gorgeous. They had a lovely time, which, yeah, which is great. That's what school holidays are for. A bit of a. Love each other sick, those two. It's just so. Gorgeous. Bit of a sleepover. It was really good. Now we've got a few things we really need to talk about before we get into today's. Yes, first thing, the bones that were found in Philip Island. Now, we are recording this probably a week and a half before it comes out, so I'm hoping we'll know a little bit more by the time this episode comes out.

3:11 But yesterday they found some bones when they were doing an excavation on a property in Philip Island. Farmers, some tradies were doing some digging for some trenches and yeah, long behold, you had a skull. Skull. I mean, how would it be for the tradies? To fire it would have been awful. Just. Terrible, but Oh my God, imagine if it is Vivian. Imagine, oh, I mean it. It puts a decades old, you know, unsolved cold case debate. It's next week that Vicky Petratus's. Book comes out it is. Which is. I mean, you'd be spewing, wouldn't you?

3:46 Well, that's resolution. There's gonna. Be some sort of resolution to it all yeah yeah ohh God definitely this month yeah I think it's the 28th for some reason going ahead I feel like I feel. Like that's. Right. The social that's 28th Janet comes out, but I mean, it'll it'll pump sales up for a book I think probably either way. So, yeah, you know, but she's been pushing this for a long time. I mean, she's been, you know, Yeah. So hopefully, I mean, for everyone, I mean, God, the family. I really hope this answers.

4:12 It's just awful. Yeah. I mean, could it mean somebody or? Could something happen, like if you mean like in terms of prosecutions in the case? Wouldn't that be interesting? Oh my God, we need to watch this space. Obviously. I mean, look, it might turn out it's not even her remains. I mean, yeah, because I mean what? But then. Who would it? Be like this is the thing on the island. There's not another missing person in mysteries of down there who would be missing down there? But I mean, who knows someone who had taken someone down there and because apparently the house was built in the mid 80s, which lines are?

4:46 Lines are with. It being potentially a building site around the 1986 timeline, Yeah.

4:53 Interesting. Interesting. Yeah. And what a chance encounter. Oh. God. I mean, you'd be spewing if you were the one who put the. Body. Well, wouldn't you?

5:05 I mean, it's not funny. But no, it's not. What are the chances? Yeah, but that's exactly where they needed to dig. A trench was exactly where you bloody buried a God. If that's how they, you know that you get caught now because of it, you kind of just would have to be like, well, well. Try my best, try my best. I got this far, had decades, got. To be a point where you go, this is all gotta this is for a reason. I was meant to get found out, like, you know what I mean? Like totally, I had to die.

5:31 Like if that's the case, like don't fight it because oh. For sure. Oh. Just like, I mean, of course they do, of course they do because that's it would be that personality type to have done it in the first place. I guess that's where that comes into play. Totally. I guess we'll get into with this one as well today. Oh, yeah. All right. Look, we caught up during the week and I said to you just this is just an aside, but I said to you, how you going with your research for this week's case? And you're like, we cannot talk.

5:56 We cannot talk because if I start talking. Same. So like, OK, but it's so hard not to because it's like right in the forefront of our minds. Totally. Before we get into all of that, IA few other things that I yeah, we've had a pretty busy week as well, but we've actually got like a mental weekend. Oh yeah. So tomorrow night we've got friends of ours. It's their 40th birthdays. Their birthdays are only a couple of days apart, right? And it is a 90s themed dress up. Oh, I. Love a dress up party? I hate dress up.

6:26 I know that about me, but I love that for you. Oh. I'm so excited Peter and I are going as Mia Wallace and Vincent Vega from Pulp Fiction. Oh I love this. I need photos. You'll get photos. We had to buy our wigs from Amazon. Does Peter do a dress up that doesn't involve spot? Star Wars? Oh. Yeah, you haven't seen him in the ostrich. Oh no, I haven't seen him in the ostrich costume. He loves to dress up. That man, oh, I know he loves to dress up, but it's usually Star Wars theme that's. True, that is actually very.

6:54 That's very, very fair. Maybe I'll pop a photo in our Patreon, Patreon feed with our our dress up. Yeah, my mum and dad are going as well. So, but Mum, Mum, I said to mum and dad, oh, what are you guys going as? Mum's like, Oh no, it's a surprise. I'm not letting you know. I'm like, why wouldn't you tell? Me, wouldn't it be funny if you both rocked up in the same? Well, I've told her what we're going as, so they better fucking not. That would. Be so funny. I'd better not. I'd pay for that. That would be gold.

7:26 I should imagine it actually. I would hate it. Do it, Lynn. Do it. Anyway, we'll see. I'm I'm really like excited to see what other people are wearing. I'm like really curious. Yes, friends of ours are going. Other friends of ours are going is like the the two main characters from Jurassic Park. We've got some people who are like wearing band T-shirts. So there's gonna be a bit of a mix, I think. Yeah, yeah, good. Some people go all out and others just, you know, mild. Yeah, that's cool. Band T-shirt sounds like the way to go for me.

8:00 Yeah, I feel like you'd be a band T-shirt or some kind of like a Seinfeld T-shirt or something. Off to the side, Yeah, Yeah. It's funny you mentioned Seinfeld was out at a restaurant recently and in the background was ATV with Seinfeld on it. And I said to my boys one day, we are watching every one of those, you know? Yeah, Before I met Peter, I'd only watched the odd episode of Seinfeld. I know, I know. But when we first started going out, he's like, no, no, no, no, no, no, you have to watch this.

8:27 So we had the DVD box set. Yeah. And I fucking love it. Oh, it's so good. It is so good. Every. Character in I, I is just Yeah. Perfection. Absolute perfection. Do you watch? Speaking of which, do you watch Curb Your Enthusiasm? I haven't been watching it. Oh. My God. So if you're a Seinfeld fan and you haven't watched Curb Your Enthusiasm, you really have to. It's so funny. So Larry David, who's the Co creator of Seinfeld, he is in and Co created and produces the ACT produces Curb Your Enthusiasm.

9:02 It's so. It is funny. Oh my God, yeah. The things he gets himself into. Oh, I just love it. It's very, very good. Very good. We've got some shout outs for today. We do. We have many SO. Many. So we had two a few coffees bought for us by Jill St. And Sue Brennan and then Jill also joined our Patreon this week. Wow, so. Thank you, Jill. We also had Mia 791. Karen Banchich. I hope that's how I say your name properly. Melanie O'Connor and Bree Cowley, all new patrons, so welcome. Thank you to everyone of you.

9:40 We every time I get a notification that we've got a new Patreon, I still go, Oh my God. It's just so lovely that people are supporting us in that way, and it is truly appreciated, as is, you know, commenting on our things, liking all of that sort of stuff. Every little bit helps and we really appreciate it. I did see a message that came through. I actually didn't write down who it was from, but somebody was like, oh, I told my friend about about your podcast. And I'm like, yes, please. More of that.

10:08 That would be great. Yeah. The more people we can get this out to, the better. That's it. Absolutely. You know, it's absolutely going great. Can't wait for. I think by this point we've had two episodes out for the year with this episode, so we'll probably be, you know, kicking off again for the year. But I'm sure like we'll get some new listeners now as we're getting back into it as well. So welcome to anyone who's new to Patreon or just listening to the regular feed. You're all very welcome here and we're so happy to be here.

10:33 We love it. We we absolutely love doing it. So thank you for joining us. It certainly means that at least we're not producing a podcast just for our families to listen to. Like our TikTok at the. Moment yeah, it's so fucking sad and join me so sad. It's because it was like so big. I think that was why I'm like struggling now. It's like, I feel like I was like, it's those echoes every time I it's. Actually, it's like cricket. Yeah, every time, Yeah. Yeah. But you're doing amazing. So you're doing amazing talk.

11:05 2 dot crime dot besties. Yes, that's it. That's it. You'll find us over there where we're still just plugging away the same stuff that we've, you know, like not the same stuff as in the new stuff that's coming out, but the same sort of style of things that we're sending out with some new bits and pieces this year I'm getting a bit more of a handle on. The source I actually saw your thing where you were like where you put out that the video of us, how many words we say that are repeated like and absolutely, absolutely, yeah, absolutely so bad and yeah, so.

11:40 Adding to. It loved it, loved it. Very, very well done. Oh well, yeah. So we'll, yeah, keep going with TikTok and if we unless it completely dies in the house and then we'll just focus on Instagram, you know, in case that's where it's really at. Let's be honest. All right, let's get into today's case because I'm, you know, we're already, we've been baffling on too. Long I've got a few of those kind of few of those. I love those. Someone jumped in the comments on Spotify and like backed us and Go, and so they're like how?

12:08 Rude. Don't you be so rude. Just fall through it, Yeah. Thank you for your support. I don't love that. Yes, I know we sometimes we see those comments and kind of go, you know, and just let it go, whatever, who cares? And then some days I'm feeling a little spicy and I might write back. I love, I love it. I, I sent you a message when I saw that you'd responded to that comment and I was like, that was the perfect response. It's. Probably really nice, but in my head it wasn't. It, it's, it came off really nice.

12:33 Yeah, yeah. Anyway, yeah. Fuck off, basically, fuck off. Fuck off. If you don't like us, that's fine. You don't have to comment. Just don't listen anymore. All right, Sherry Papini. Yeah, this is a massive 1 huge. I'm sure most people who are listening to this, based on the title of our of the podcast anyway, may have a bit of an idea of of Sherry, but. My shield, like me, was living under a rock. I don't know how I missed. This one, this this blows my mind that you didn't really know anything about it.

12:59 It's. Gotta be like it. I don't know. Well, it's pre COVID. I don't know. Maybe it was, oh, you know what it was. I reckon it might have been just like pre. I was like in the depths of like horror child probably when this was all blowing. Up. Yeah, yeah. I'd yeah, yeah, I think. That's probably what it was. You had no capacity for literally anything else. No, that's. Probably what that was. All right, so Sherry Louise Graf was born on the 11th of June in 1982 in Mount Shasta, CA. Her parents are named Loretta and Richard Graf.

13:29 They are interesting in and of themselves, but we will absolutely get into that. Yeah, Sherry was the younger of two children to them. Her older sister's name is Sheila, and she has a little bit to do with this story as well. But I'm sure, I'm sure we'll talk to her, to her involvement and her opinions in all of this a little bit later, too. Yeah, but Sherry's childhood, it's really hard to say because I think we need to preface this entire podcast by saying nobody fucking knows the truth because there is so much out there and Sherry lies all the time.

14:07 I'm sure her parents lie. I'm sure her ex-husband has lied. There is. I think there is not one person in this podcast who I'm like, oh, sorry. In the research that I've done for this where I'm like, IA 100% believe you, except for that FBI agent. Oh, Yep, she's gold. I love her. Yes, I absolutely love her. We will get to her. We'll get to her. But yes, I completely agree. Yeah, so according to Sherry, she had a lot of trauma in her childhood. First of all, she said she came from a home that had a lot of drug abuse and alcohol abuse.

14:40 Yeah. And all of the myriad of issues that come along with that. Yeah, and friends of hers corroborated that story in terms of like, that was what the narrative was at the time as well as not just as an adult. She was reflecting black back on that going, Oh yeah, this is actual when holding on in my household because I mean, that's so thinking go on without people knowing behind closed doors. So this wasn't even a it wasn't something that was, you know, like later on reflected on and spoken about friends from back in her childhood said that that's what was spoken about or what was inferred.

15:10 Do we know back then? We still don't know definitively if it was true though. And also, do we know like there were no witnesses to it? So it's more even back then. No, I don't know that they're able to even corroborate that. Because her parents may. There's just this idea of like, friends saying like, yeah, she'd come to our house and felt loved there because we we basically knew that she wasn't. She wasn't. Getting that at. Home, home, home, which they that was their perspective of what the situation was, but they didn't know what that was that was going on in the house.

15:37 Exactly what I guess what I'm trying to get at these were converse. These was this was topics that were being were around her from childhood, but what the facts of what was going on. Who knows? Yeah. I think also, we should probably say right now, just before I get into my next sort of little bit, is that there are two documentaries that really have very opposing or somewhat appraising, somewhat appraising somewhat, Yeah. About this case. Yeah. And the first one is called Perfect Wife and it's more from the perspective of Sherry's than husband.

16:09 Yeah. And then the second one with that came out in 2024. The second one came out in 2025 and that is what's that one called. It's. Caught in a lie? Caught in a lie? That's. Called well done and that's got Sherry in it and it's a lot of things are from her perspective, although there's a lot of challenge to what she has to say to you. So it's not one sided by any stretch of the. Imagination. I think there was like people went into it with an idea of what perspective they want to come at it with, but information kept coming out that maybe didn't align with how they thought it would.

16:46 Yeah, that's, that's very, very fair. In the Perfect Wife documentary, she says so it is reported by a friend of hers that she ran away. So Richard, her dad, sorry, reported that she ran away from home at about the age of 16 and she was like couch hopping and, you know, that was. That was the lifestyle she LED from there. That's. Exactly. Right now, Sherry says that that's because she was sexually assaulted as A and she she clearly states in the court in the Lie documentary that it's not her mom or dad who sexually assaulted her.

17:20 That someone that knew the family. Somebody in the family. Very unfortunately the way it goes. Common. Yeah. And that caused her to sort of be really unsettled. She was already from what she claims to be a fairly unsettled home anyway because of the drug and alcohol abuse that was going on in the home. And so from quite a young age, like 16, that is a formative time in a especially in a young girl's life. It is for anyone, girl or boy. But she was. She didn't have or wasn't creating for herself a stable home life.

17:54 Like as in, she wasn't at home to be getting what she needed from her parents. Whether they were capable of giving her that or not, we don't know. Because she was relying on like, meeting men to have somewhere to stay or having partners, you know, that she would then go and live with or, you know, or friends that she would make. And I get the vibe. And to mean to survive living like that and being on your own from 16, you would need to be quite savvy and then therefore potentially manipulative. Yeah, to find a way to stay at someone's house to not do.

18:27 You. Does this get you though already? Because. Yeah, so already you say that. And I sort of like, oh, I kind of cringe at that because I'm like, she did have a home where she was. OK. Let's just say we'll believe the story that her parents were drug and alcohol abusers. Yeah. They never abused the girls in that they were never physically harmful towards them. Okay, it may have created an unstable home in some ways, maybe there was a lack of nurturing or whatever, but the way she portrays it is that she had no choice but to get out.

19:00 Now we don't. It's so this is. Fuck it. It's so hard. Yeah. Because I think if you're in that kind of a volatile, if you think that's a volatile situation, yes, you would need to get out. But then the way her parents explained the situation is that everything was kind of OK and she would have been fine staying there. I don't know of. Course they would have said that. Yeah, yeah. I don't know, it's something like I couldn't, you can't like make a call on. It's so hard, and I feel like that in so many things with this case, it's so hard to make a call.

19:30 Yeah. So the other thing that we know is that in 2017, because there was so much reporting into what happened and, you know, lies and all this sort of stuff started coming out. Newspapers were going deep on this, and they were looking into her background. And what I found is that 13 years before her disappearance, her family had made multiple 911 calls regarding her behaviour. So her dad accused Sherri. Of vandalizing their home, he said he she did something to the letterbox or something and she was like ruining things at their house.

20:09 And she also then in 2003 apparently made a withdrawal from his bank account without him knowing or without him authorizing it. Yeah right. And so he wanted to press charges for that. So it's it's. There's a yeah, a lot, no history prior to that's getting to where. We incredibly problematic story. That's right. Incredibly problematic behavior. In 2006, she met and married a military, a guy who was in the military. Yeah, so she married him for convenience. She told him that she had a heart murmur due to too many egg like egg donations.

20:50 OK. And I don't think that's ever been corroborated that she actually ever donated her eggs. Oh God. I tried. I tried to find it. The only thing I could find when I was looking into this because this was one of my. This is one of my rabbit. Holes. So many rabbit holes. This is one of the ones that I was like, surely they could if if you were donating your eggs, yeah, the clinic that you donated them to would be able to give evidence to show that you had donated your eggs. That is a complex procedure.

21:22 You'd think. No one's been able. To cooperate. And then I don't think that that happened then. And then I also couldn't find if you donate your eggs, was it what was the issue with your heart then I don't know. Again, couldn't find like even the trigger hormones, none of that being related to a heart murmur. No, I mean, I've had OK, I have a heart condition. I've done IVF, heart condition was never really linked between the. Mentioned and I couldn't find cuz I was like maybe I just don't know. I just don't know about this.

21:54 I couldn't find any information to. Show the medications that I was taking would would interact poorly with my heart. No, there was that. That does not ring a bell. Do. You not think that's so fucking weird? Yeah. So she's married this bloke, right? Yeah, he was on deployment. And so for the majority of their marriage, I think they spent two nights together in the house that he owned in wherever they were at the time. I think it was in, it's like still in California. And then he was on deployment.

22:24 She went and visited him once when he was in Japan on deployment and that was it. Like it? Was a little bit of an arrangement, wasn't it? The marriage, it was not like it. Was for her to get some kind of treatment, medication I don't know for. Her heart. It wasn't, yeah, it wasn't really that we're in love, we're getting married. That was not the whole premise. Of it, in fact, he said something along the the lines of when they broke up. It was very mutual, yeah. They were both and they stayed friends for a while and stayed in touch.

22:54 Break it off. It was just like it was mutually agreeable to be married for some reasons like it. It meant that he had someone to kind of come home to if he when he wasn't in on deployment. And it meant that she got certain health benefits. Yeah, supposedly. Yeah, it wasn't. Yeah. It wasn't like we're in love. No, it wasn't that old. And they, they both actually say that. Yeah. While he was on his final deployment, while they were married, she met Keith. Yes. So Keith would then become go on to become her second husband.

23:24 Yeah. Now, so this was at the time where she was like, we need to divorce. And he, the first husband was like, Yep, no worries, that's fine. Yeah. And immediately Keith and Sherry were in inseparable. Yeah, was it was deep or real quick? Very, very quick. Yeah, very, very quick. They got married and they went on to have two children. So they had an older boy and a younger girl. And these children, you know, you look at photos of them as a family and you think, oh, a perfect family, perfect family.

24:00 Like Keith and Sherry, they're quite attractive people, like fit, young, healthy. They look, you know, they kind of glow in all their photos and. Tagline attached to Sherry around the town was that she was super mom. She was in everything, planned everything. You know, she was there for her kids, like. Did everything. Yeah. When Violet was young, Sherry was let go from her job at AT&T and was given a fairly substantial payout. It was enough money that she was able to get her boobs done. That's right.

24:30 And that she was able to actually take a fairly extended time off from paid work in order to be with her kids, although. Yeah, yeah, they were still in child care. So from all of the reports I've seen and look, forensic accountants have been through these people's financials to the NTH degree, so I believe this to be true. But the money that she got from her payout, Yep. Breast surgery, breast augmentation and childcare fees. So while she wasn't working, the kids were still in daycare every day.

25:06 Well. It's hard to, again, hard to know with stories and things, but you know, but has sort of said, you know, he was he was on a case a little bit about like, come on, like maybe you should go back to work because he was a bit miffed at the thought that they're spending that money on childcare when really she's staying home. Like, shouldn't she be looking after the children, you know, and if that's, if you're going to put them in daycare, then like maybe go and get another job and then then we can do other things financially as well as with that money.

25:35 Like, yeah. So he was, he vocally has said he was, he wasn't. It wasn't an arrangement they were mutually happy about for how she was was managing her time, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. But I think, I think that's a very fair statement. I mean, in that in that Perfect Wife documentary, he basically says that, doesn't he? He wasn't. And I get, I actually fully get that. I do, I do too. I'm I kind of, I don't really, I'll be fully honest, I really don't understand putting your kids in care. I mean, I understand if you're going to the gym and you want to put them in the crash while you're at the gym or you know that sort of stuff.

26:09 But like going and putting them in daycare from early hours in the morning till evening. She used to pick when. You're like 4:45 PM or something. Yeah. And that was. Not working and you don't do other stuff. What are you doing all day? Well, you know, other than like, you know, yeah, maybe going for exercise or things. What, how many things are there that you need to do that you can you cannot do with your children, with you? What do you mean? For two days yeah grocery shopping and all your chores on one day and have a day to yourself I'm.

26:33 Not against people having time to themselves. I'm not saying that. I mean, like, if that's as a family, like you need income, Yeah. So if you're gonna put them in care every day and not actually, but this is the thing, it was all about show because there was this whole persona that she was the world's greatest mom and that she was active with the kids all the time and always doing these fun and craft things with their kids. But in reality, she'd do that for a short portion of the day and make sure that it was caught on camera or seen by other.

27:01 People this is the thing that gets me it gives me like 8 passengers vibe yes right because she would post a lot on social media and it would be like these beautiful not even beautiful it was oftentimes the stuff that she posted on social media was like candid photos of the kids yet doing crafts and when she's like taking a selfie and. They're sitting and they're playing games at home and she's, you know. Yeah, yeah. I find, and I'm going to use this word a lot, I think in this podcast she is very performative.

27:35 Yeah, she I can't wait to. Talk about you. I know. Honestly. But let's just let's just get through it through the back. Actual background. Stuff. So the other thing that is definitely worth noting before we get into our discussions is the fact that Sherry and well Keith had made or asked Sherry and made Sherry sign a post nuptial agreement. But the reason for that being it was post nup, as you just said, like snup, not previously to getting to getting married as the early days of their marriage.

28:06 You know, within the first couple of years or something. It was he discovered that she was messaging and communicating with men or a man. No, it was men. It was multiple, wasn't I don't sort of said that when or maybe. No, there was 1 main particular one, but it was multiple. There were multiples. So he got, you know, I don't blame him, annoyed with that. That's not OK if this is how this is going to go. So to protect himself as well in this situation, he decided that they should do a postnuptial agreement and make it so that if their marriage broke down due to her stepping out of the marriage, if that was what she promised him, that she'd stop doing, that it wouldn't happen again.

28:47 Well if that's the case, then you're really going to stick to that. Then there won't be an issue because that if our marriage breaks down due to you stepping out of the marriage, like we have to be proven that there was adultery involved that then she would not get anything. And I think even this was pre kids, but they wrote into it even custody of children I believe. I believe that's correct. It did go pretty far. Yep, but it meant she got literally nothing, not even like half the house. She signed away every otherwise every right that she would have.

29:16 Yeah. Right now I don't know if it's in Australia, in America is, is here the same in terms of like for, for a prenuptial agreement, we don't call them that here, binding financial agreements, we call them here in Australia. But for those sorts of things, you need separate legal advice, and I don't know if that's the case in the United States. As to whether or not that's how that works, I don't know. But surely she got her own legal advice in that moment to have that paperwork. I honestly. Don't believe she did.

29:41 See, that's the thing that gets me then is like they, they're far more binding in America than they are here. There's always ways around them. I feel like in Australia, but ours, you have to have, you know, separate council, whereas if that's not the case in the States then that's really weird because to me then you can just claim that you haven't. Got enough? What kind of law would say to their client? Yep, sign that? Like that's what makes me think she didn't have any. But I also can believe that she would be someone who'd be like, of course, you know, and lying, saying I would never cheat on you.

30:10 Like, you know, of course I'll sign that. That's what I'm saying. And in her own mind, convincing herself. Yeah. There's nothing this isn't going to affect me. 100%. Because she's can, she manipulates herself the same amount as she manipulates. Other people, it's so. Far. But anyway, so to that end, it's just worth noting. That that's in place. That's in place. Yeah, for sure. All right, Are we now at the date? I think so. OK, so November the 2nd, 2016. Yeah. Sherry is out. She drops the kids off at daycare as usual.

30:42 Keith goes off to work at his job and often Keith would actually come home for lunch. And apparently so, according to Keith. And I believe these text messages are corroborated. Yeah. I mean, this isn't really a point of contention, but he, she, Sherry messaged him to say, are you coming home for lunch? And he was a bit lunchtime, a bit of a lunchtime fancy and. Apparently, that's what she says. Seriously. I haven't. Where did you say that? Oh. Yeah, no, she said that in a police interview. Ohh, she wanted to be a rompy Pompey at lunch.

31:16 Yeah, it's, we'll get to the police interview and we'll talk about it then. All the way. I've got, I've got so ohh. You've gotta tell me, Tell me now. I wanna know. Ohh 'cause people say after all this she gets interviewed by with the police. It's like one of the first interviews she does and the way she's like, all giddy and like being silly and flirty with the police officer, basically like saying like, you know, you know, it seems silly now, but I was, you know, messaging my husband, asking him to come home to have sex with me at lunchtime.

31:42 And I you know. Like have not heard that. Yeah, yeah. And it's it's really gross. I watched it kind of going. What are you doing like? Yeah, what the fuck are you doing? You're trying to. Tell everyone you've just been. You're traumatized, but now you're like flirtatiously kind of giggly schoolgirl over asking your husband to come home to bang you at lunchtime. Like, well, you're a grown adult. Like you're allowed to do that. Yeah. And if that's what happened on that day, then say that. Salacious.

32:07 No, there's nothing salacious about that. That's great. Good. Good for you. Like. And but it's it's really, really off putting the way she does it in the midst of her, like trying to force tears. I haven't seen that. Yeah. Far up. It's in the face. It's the perfect wife documentary, but. I don't watch that. I just don't. Yeah, it's really weird, but basically, Keith was busy at work or something, didn't see a message. He then finishes his day at work and he gets home. Now when he gets home, Sherry's car's in the driveway.

32:38 Her wallet and other personal items are at home. Her handbag, Phone. Yeah, her phone's hard. Yep. Aside from her phone, that's correct. And he thinks to himself, oh, maybe because normally she would, as I said, normally she would pick the kids up at about 4:45 so that they're home in time for when Keith gets home from work. Yeah. And she's like, oh, mate, he thought maybe she's run an errand or something, but weird, the car's not there. I wonder what time she picked up the kids from daycare. So she he rings the daycare and the daycare are like, oh, what do you mean?

33:11 She hasn't actually picked them up yet. They're still here. And so he's like, oh, fuck. So he goes on to the find my phone to find my phone and iPhone. And he can see that Sherry's phone is at the basically at the corner of the road that they live on and the Oregon Trail like a running track, basically. Yeah. So he he's like, oh, fuck, I'm going to go down there. He goes down there, sees her phone about, I think it was about 10 meters or so off the track. Now, this is interesting in and of itself.

33:45 Yeah, she's got an iPhone. She's got the cables with the earbuds. They're kind of like wrapped around the phone. The. Earbuds like curled. Up on the phone. The phone. 'S kind of feeling neatly very. Neat. It looked to me. It looks really neat. You can Google Photos. You can Google. Photos got me as well that like. So Keith, as soon as he saw them sitting there, he took a photo of them. I would have too. Yeah, I could. I would have too. I would have heard it. I was like, wouldn't you just go and pick it up?

34:11 Like no. No, I would have done that too because I really like she's missing. I need to show the police that this is exactly how I found them. The other interesting thing was there was also like her blonde hair. You could see very a chunk of it, almost like if like imagine clearly wound up in this as well. Yeah. So there's a fair, fair bit of hair like I'm not talking like a you. Know oh you can see in this photo guys have a go and. Google it's obvious there's hair. Socials. Yeah, there's obviously there's hair there and it's long blonde hair.

34:39 Yeah, Sherry was blonde. Yeah. OK, so he then freaks out. Calls the cops. Call one. 1911 and he says to the police, who? Or he says to the 911 operator, well, something along the lines of I don't know what's going on, my wife is missing. She's, you know, anything? Some she's like cuz yeah, she was out for a jog. Cuz that. But she wish she would do and. He's like, she's gotten back into running recently. Yeah. And I mean, that's where she used to run. Yeah. Along that trail. Completely fair. Yeah.

35:11 And he's like, I've called the kids daycare. She hasn't picked them up. And he sounds quite panicked in that phone call. Yeah, I think it's, I think it's a very, I mean, as I've said many occasions, like you know those 91 calls and stuff, it's hard. You don't want judge people by them. But I think it's a pretty stock standard of like a husband sort of doing the whole like, I don't know how concerned I need to be, but I think I'm concerned like. That's the vibe. Yeah. And it's kind of him being a bit.

35:35 He's kind of almost detail a little bit too much like kind of stuff at the same time because he's, I think he's kind of like almost trying to talk himself out of needing to call. It's like he wants them to go, oh, you didn't need to call us like, and he's a bit sheepish about it. Or something. Yeah, yeah, that's how I took it. Yeah, but basically what he does then is so the police are like, OK, we need to respond to this. Yeah, he did pick up her phone. He then called his mum to go and pick up the kids from daycare.

36:02 So that kind of that's all taken care of. The kids are taken care of and he then starts like, I'm assuming he's had a bit of a look around, can't find any trace of her. He's then interviewed by the police because I mean, we all know that generally speaking, you know, the police start with the people closest to you and work their way out. And of course, like even some some, when I've heard that 911 call, a few things, he says. In that I'm like, oh, if you were guilty, it wouldn't surprise me. Yeah, yeah, yeah, You know what I mean.

36:35 I'll admit that too. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So I I. Because I think he even says in it, I took a photo of, of her phone that I found out. And that was the fact that it was in that 9 to 1911 call that he said that that I think that was why I kind of went, it's an odd thing to say like on the 911. Call. Yeah. But then I think you're right in that he was just trying to give all the details so that they knew it all because he was so concerned. He was like. What? What? This is all weird. This is all weird really.

37:00 Fucking weird, yes, But basically what we know is that Sherry didn't come home that day. No, she didn't come home for 22 days. They did it immediately. The police saw this scene and that the fact they still couldn't find her, they still have all they would need. They normally do it very clearly was she has she's missing like it's there is something wrong here. It was very much treated that way, that there was someone at risk here. Yeah. What that was, they weren't certain of, but they were clearly marking this as at risk, you know, that somebody has gone missing.

37:34 I think they acted very. Quickly, Yeah, they did. Because everything kind of added up to the fact that potentially foul play was involved here. Because as we said, her car was there, she would normally, she was super mom. She would always pick her kids up from daycare and cook dinner and all of those things, you know, and neighbors, friends, everyone who was in who was notified about this, no one could believe that she would leave her children. Yeah, that was the thing that got everyone a little bit was the fact that, yeah, she wouldn't just ditch her kids kind of stuff.

38:08 So that was weird to the outside community. Yeah. Yeah. So she's, she's missing at this point, no one knows where she is. That the searches can, like, start real fast, which, I mean, to their credit, they were, you know, onto it. But not only that, Keith, very early on, he apparently he said in an interview with the police, he was like, I've been told by friends, I should be demanding the FBI be here now. He and like in the way he says it, I kind of do the whole like I, I, I don't know, it checked out for me that he's being a bit like, I'm parliamentary, really forceful.

38:43 I fully agree, because you can actually see that footage in that documentary. And he's like, oh, I've been told that I need to say to you that I need to demand. I need to be involved in this. Yeah. And I I fully, I'm on board with him on that yeah. Because people would have been saying that to him, yes, Because who knows where she. Is and then he doesn't want to go into these cops that won. He's prime suspect. And he knows that like at this point like that, they've got to rule him out. He knows, you know, whether he's guilty or not.

39:09 But I think he knew like he was being looked at, of course. So you don't want to look like you're doing something that's going to make them look at you more. But he also was like, I want to do the right thing here and speak up. Yeah, but I'm also going to keep these people on side and not piss them off because these are people who are going to help me find her. So it's, you know, trying to work out how you go around demanding something off of people that are there to help you. You know, I think I've got that kind of like nervous vibe from him of.

39:34 You want for. Some very valid reason. Can you imagine as a, as a spouse to be in that situation and being like, fuck, we need the fucking FBI to look for my spouse? Like I, I can't, I can't even imagine what it'd be like to be in his shoes in that. Time exactly. Yeah, Yeah. So you know. I looked at, you know, through a magnifying glass. But you've also want to do everything you need to do. Yeah. Which is I think is really hard because you, yeah, you know, you've been looked at differently. For sure.

40:06 Yeah, for sure. So basically, so Keith, this is another thing. OK. So Keith also in the days that follow, there is an absolute groundswell of support for finding Sherry. Yeah, now I think we probably need to introduce here the fact that she is a slim, blonde, beautiful white woman and she's incredibly photogenic and I think that means something in. This, well, let's say this is how much it means in this someone else went missing in the same similar area at this time. And I couldn't find anything else much about that, that story because this took over.

40:53 Yeah, yeah. It's it's mind blowing, but look to for whatever that all is, there was so much out there. Within within hours, it was on local TV, within not many more hours it was on national TV. And the following day was international news. People. Everybody knew the name Cher aside from me. Knew the name Sherry Papini, Right? Yeah. And I remember, I remember seeing it on the news as well and thinking, oh, how does a mum just go missing? Like it just doesn't make sense. I mean, I know this shit happens all day every day.

41:31 Like it's not unusual, but the fact that it's in your face. Yeah. OK. So that's going on now, 22 days later on, on Thanksgiving Day, which was the 20. 4th of November, 4:30 AM on things. Thanksgiving Day really early. I was in the morning. Yep. She was still wearing restraints. She was dropped on the I-5 Yep, in Yolo County, which was about 240 kilometers from where she disappeared, and she's running around like a mad person trying to flag down a car now several cars drove past her. Now there was.

42:08 This video footage of her two through a church car park, you can see it, you can't make her out. You can see the they've lined it up with timings and things that it's her, but you can't make out that it's. Specific, you're just running. Through but she's running now. That's just that's important. It is important that she's running at a fair pace across this camera. Like I've crossed the car park, sort of the top of the car park. You can see her. It's it's relevant. And you can actually see that she's restrained in that as well, because the way she's sort of running, I don't reckon well.

42:35 She's running very easily in that. Yeah, Anyway, yeah. Well, yeah, yeah, she. But basically this, this is actually really funny. So a truck. So a few people go past and and call 911 having passed her not having stopped, which I totally understand, especially there was a mum and her daughter who were driving along. And I'm like, yeah, I wouldn't stop either if I was a woman on my own. I totally get that. But then this truck driver stops and he rings 911 and he's like, I've found this woman and her name is Sherry Panini, Papini.

43:07 And she's like, it's Papini. I bet she gets sad all the time. I mean, a Panini is a delicious and it's very good. I don't mind a Panini. Every now and then he also says, though, something about her boyfriend dropped her off. And then she's like, no, no, no, I've been. I was abducted. Abducted. And then the 911 operator then is like, Oh yeah, can I talk to her? Because she's, I reckon you can sort of. The Colds. Are turning there. Oh my God, this is Sherry Papini. Yeah, gets on and then Sherry gets on the phone and she's distraught and you know, she's yeah, there's, you know, you know, she's basically like, Oh my God, you know, I've just been dropped here and the 911 operator says do you know where you are?

43:55 She's like, no, I don't know where I am, I've got no idea blah blah, blah, blah. So of course they dispatch ambulance police to her location. She is then taken to a local hospital, initially for an initial assessment because she is bound. There's least around. Her waist. She's a broken nose, she's a burn on her forearm. She's got bruising ligature marks on her wrists and ankles, which probably from the binding is guess what that's inferring the chain around her wrist, her waist, sorry, significant weight loss.

44:30 She's like emaciated. She. Basically weighed, I think, I think regularly she was something like 60 kilos. She's only a little frame, a little. She weighed something like 47 kilos, like there was nothing of it. And you see photos of her back especially, and you can see like her spine. It's yeah, She she was amazing. She's. Tiny and then tiny, there's most significant injury that she had was this. She was branded on her right shoulder, which she can make out is the word exodus and I think 61200. Yeah, yeah.

45:05 Which is really very unusual, sort of. I mean, branding is something that if you watch Yellowstone like I do, I. Love Yellowstone? You know, that's like it's ownership, you know, that's that's your. That's right, you brand a cow. You brand cattle because they belong to you. Yeah. And I mean, in this area, there was known to be some sex trafficking issues. There was some drug cartel issues not being, you know, South southern, sort of California there there was some, some sort of stuff like that going on.

45:34 So there was I guess some indication that maybe it was something to do with that, you know, that someone was branding her to be then sold in, in a, in a sex trafficking scenario. Did you hear what her mum said about that? Oh, the Mama mum, sorry. Oh my God. Yeah. But I'm just gonna say this now because it's relevant. Yeah, her mum was basically, her mum basically said, oh, we knew she probably wasn't kidnapped, she was probably sex trafficked because she was actually scorching. Really beautiful she was.

46:02 Really. Beautiful. I know. I really when that was said, I was like. I cringe. I. Literally, I had a kind of reaction. To that, how did you Oh my God, how? Did you think that was OK? To say. Yeah, I don't know the. Family. Oh my God, the family anyway. Yeah, so very, very significant injuries she had like, I mean, and the bruising was you could sort of say they were yellowing and bluing and, you know, direct various stages. So I mean, 22 days, it's three weeks, it's a lot of time and. She also had her hair kind of hacked, yeah.

46:37 Hacked. So she had very, very long blonde hair, and it was kind of hacked to, It wasn't cut neatly above her shoulder. Yeah, yeah. So basically when they they transfer originally transferred her from that hospital that she first went to, to an A bigger tertiary hospital to take care of her because they didn't really know the full extent of her injuries. And they wanted to do a rape kit as well to see whether they'd been any sexual assault. So they did that and it came back that there was no sexual assault, there were no indicators at all of sexual assault.

47:11 There was no semen found, there was no trauma, nothing like that. So the police like, right, we need to interview her while things are still fresh. It's still very early days. We understand that, but we really need to get an initial statement at the very least. Yes, she refuses to talk to the police. And the police except for her. If only if if Keith was going to be. There, no. She refused even then. So the police said to Keith, if you take a recorder in, can you talk to her about what happened without us being there?

47:41 And he agreed to that. And Sherry knew that was going on. And so Keith's taken this recording device, this is still in the hospital and has gone and essentially interviewed her. He, he asks some very directed questions, which I would want to know those things too. So I completely understand where he's coming from. Yeah, but she gives him a very sort of stilted version of events. And but one of the things that she says is that she was abducted by two Hispanic women who kept their faces hidden by masks.

48:19 And basically they tortured her. They withheld food from her. They kept her locked in a closet if she didn't do what they wanted. They branded her. And they told her that they were going to sell her to a police officer and that nobody would ever find out about it because this police officer was going to cover it all up. Right. Yeah. OK. Yeah. Right. So in amongst all of this, Keith is still very active in the media. Yeah. What do you? What's your take on that? I mean, I OK in the scenario, media are your best friend when they're missing and your worst enemy in these moments where you want your privacy.

49:11 And I, I think that from what I can gather, Keith is someone who also, along with his wife, likes to have people believe that everything. Is a certain thing, Yep. Bright and sunshine and roses and things. So I think he wanted to keep everything neat and tidy, you know, like everything was. Yeah. Said that needs to be said and nothing was maybe misconstrued or I don't know. I think he had an agenda in terms. Of controlling the narrative. Yeah, I do. I think he was trying to in some way protect her and but also protect himself and their and their persona.

49:49 Yeah, yeah, I, I think there was a bit of that going on of like how do I manage this situation now? It's kind of like I've let the cat out of the bag of like, you know, the the media are here, they're they're everywhere and I need to appease that. I can't be rude to them. Now. It's like, now that'll come off a certain way, whereas probably entertaining, it also can come off a way that he didn't think to. Me, Yeah, To me, it's weird. Yeah. I think if your wife's been through this incredible trauma, yeah.

50:17 And you're giving your time to. And I'm not talking one or two different media organizations. I'm talking multiple like 10s. Yeah, he, I mean the FBI, the lady that we spoke about earlier, she directed him and said you need to stop. Yeah. Like and don't that's enough. That's enough because there was everyone wanted a piece of him and wanted a piece of Sherry at the time. And she they were like, you need to stop this because we need to actually do an investigation that you can't keep doing that because we need to sort of tighten things up now that I mean, this is not what we expected the outcome to be, no.

50:48 So yeah, it's, I think it's a really interesting position to be in. Can I just? Ask you as well what your thoughts are, whether there was any financial motivation. Behind. Oh, look, I think that there was certainly, you know, to an aspect of it of that he was, yeah, looking at for himself and that in that sense. For sure, because all of these media organizations paid him for his time. Yeah. That was definitely. Differently. Yeah, Yeah. And I mean, you look, you know, you're going to have bills to pay like everyone does.

51:18 I don't know. I can understand it. But I can also go like, that's a bit gross as well. I get both sides of that. I don't know. Yeah, it's a difficult one. There is just something about. Something about there is I do agree with. You and that makes me and that makes me go. What is your motivation? Why are you doing this? I think I think it's more about. It's not our choice stick. It's it is. It's about controlling the narrative. Yeah. And I think for him, control was the most important thing. Yeah, I do agree.

51:50 Yeah, yeah, yeah. So 24th of November 2016 is when she was released by her captor. Yeah, by the time 20/20/17 comes around, which is only a couple of months later, investigators are starting to piece together. They were already from the get go people while she was missing. We're like kind of going this is SUS. There were little bits here and there going well, a lot of pointed Keith, a lot of you know, like, yeah, he seems SUS. But also that the whole scenario, especially when she turned up. I mean, there was a lot of bits out there in the media and that of people kind of go in and and in the circles of the investigative team kind of going really add up.

52:35 Yeah, that was it was there. It was sprinklings. I think the FBI got involved pretty much straight away, yeah, With case approval of hating of that, Yeah. And he said there were so many things immediately to them that seemed suspicious. The first thing was the placement of the phone. Yeah. And that just looked it looked staged to. Them like who winds it up and then puts it down? Even Keith said it looked weird in one of his interviews. He, he fully admitted that. Yeah, but they, the FBI also start to note inconsistencies in her stories.

53:15 And I'm not just talking about. I mean, she changed her story so many times, but she would also leave things out when she recounted her story. Like in one in one interview with the police, a formal interview with the police, she stated that they made her wear these two Hispanic women, made her wear an adult diaper. She never mentioned that again in any other interview. There were a lot of things like that that that came to the fore. The other thing that the FBI noted was the fact that it's really rare for two women to kidnap a woman and for there to be no man involved.

53:53 Because according to Sherry, what happened during those 22 days is that these two Hispanic women, one was younger, one was older. The younger one had, I believe she had curly hair, thin eyebrows. The older one had thick eyebrows and long, straight hair. They wore face masks, so she wasn't able to give much detail about really the way that they looked. She also said that they played that Mexican Mexican music. Hello. Fuck off. There's a whole issue with her description of the. Paper. Have you seen this stuff about when she was in?

54:32 Yeah, I think it was in high school. In high school, so supposedly, well, OK, she claims she didn't write this. She claims that someone was bullying her and did it to get her in trouble. Like, you know, make her look bad. However, there's no way. I'm sorry. No, no, I don't buy that for one for a second. But according to her, someone else wrote this and posted it on skinheads.com. And it's that room or something. It's just, it's basically ramblings of like, absolute pure, yeah, racist crap saying that basically Latinos were targeting her and her dad, you know, particularly around when she'd go to sports because she was really good at sports and that these Latino couple of Latino girls would call her dad Hitler and that call them Nazis and all these sorts of things.

55:24 And but it gets quite violent at times. And when you read this document, there's quite a bit in there that, weirdly enough, is what happened to her when she was kidnapped. Kidnapped by two Hispanic women. Yeah, it's. Disgusting to me. But the thing that gets me then of like, because what she's saying like keeps trying to tell you, oh, but I'm not racist. I'm not racist, but. If you have to say I'm not racist, if you have to defend yourself, what's prompted people to say that? Yeah, seriously. Without putting too much in it, but like there's there's so much in her story of what she these are quotes from her from her statements of things that she describes that her kidnappers music was that really annoying Mexican music.

56:08 You know Mariachi I. Fucking love mariachi music now. You know, I did live in Mexico as a child, but however. Yeah, but it's the way she speaks. It's the way she. Talks about it. It does really give you that indication. I think she says they fed her tortillas and rice some kind of meat. Couldn't, and I couldn't discern what, 1 black beans and overall crap, leftover crap that tasted horrible. It's just, she's just like really stomping on anything that's like Mexican. Mexican themed themed. Yeah. They ate off cheap paper plates.

56:43 They spoke mostly Spanish, but she heard something about gambling, which apparently they were kind enough to speak in English about.

56:53 And I believe, again, she only ever mentioned that one. Yeah, she won interview. She also made mention of their knockoff shoes and their big hoop earrings. I mean, how stereotypical and how you know what I mean? It's just, it's really like, it's gross. Real biased, real racist, to be honest. Yeah, she said. She talked about their look as well, in terms of their over tweezed eyebrows on one of them and that their cast smelt really bad, like sewage. Yeah. Like she really, I mean, of course you're going to speak nicely if you're kidnappers.

57:21 I completely get that. But the way she really spoke about them was just, I don't know, I feel like it was more about the fact that these were his Hispanic people that she was trying to. I agree with you. So instead of speaking to your captor is a bad person, she spoke to them base she spoke about them based on their race. Yeah, yeah. And that's not okay. No, which I mean that I think it all just adds up, especially when you link this stuff in the in what she wrote. It's quite a lengthy piece that she posted on that side that's not allegedly but that also.

57:53 Wasn't a one off? No, it wasn't at all. There was many occasions of things, but there's lots of stuff mentioned that about how she had broken one of their noses. That's, you know, what happened here. There was links between what was spoken about in this document, which I think was posted, as you say, when she was in high school. That has been brought up then in this 2016 incident that links that you go, well, if you didn't write it somehow you've. Yeah, exactly. It's. Really. And yeah, it's specifically targeted at 2 Latinos in this whole article that she wrote.

58:26 Well, sorry, sorry. Supposedly didn't write. Yeah, allegedly. Allegedly. The other thing is that, sorry I forgot to mention before, when she was in hospital they took her clothes. So when she went missing, she was actually wearing like jogging clothes. She was wearing activewear when she was found on the side of the road, she was wearing a grey sweat suit, but she was wearing the same undies that she disappeared in. She claims that her two Hispanic captors allowed her to wash her underwear when they allowed it on the odd occasion that they allowed her to have a shower and that's why she was wearing them again and they gave her the clothes.

59:04 She didn't know what happened to the clothes that that she would disappeared in. Now the FBI at the time took her clothes. They put took them away for DNA testing and they put the DNA that they found in Dakotas. They found male DNA, which was interesting because she said she only was. There. No, according to her there was only ever 2 females. They ruled out immediately that DNA did not link to Keith. Yeah, 100%. That wasn't linked to Keith. Yeah, that's right. And his, his story was very strongly corroborated in terms of the fact that he was at work that whole time, that he was certainly.

59:39 Seen in the media within those 22 days plenty of times. That's right. Exactly. So we we know that what Keith did, we know what Keith did. Yeah, in that time. Yeah, we don't. Yeah, that's not in contention. Nothing linking him to what went on really. Like what? Him taking any part in this? When the FBI put the DNA into CODIS, it came back with nothing, no hit. So there was no nobody with a criminal record certainly had committed this crime that they knew of. No, but the interesting thing is that I think it was in.

1:00:14 2020 Yeah, it took quite some time for them to to get to a different point with the DNA. That's right. They decided they were constantly putting the DNA whenever they had time I guess, into the genealogy websites and see whether they got a hit started. Getting more and more use this was. Around the time that the Golden State Killer, Golden State Killer was crime was sold through a genealogy website. So they did the same thing and they got a hit and what they found was that the DNA found on the tracksuit matched a family member of one of Sherry's ex boyfriends.

1:00:53 Yeah, OK. Well, yeah, familiar DNA so. It wasn't your DNA, so it was a, it was a family member of James. Family member. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so that of course they go. This is unbeknownst to Sherry at this point. They go and interview this ex-boyfriend of hers named James and and he lived in Costa Mesa in California. Yeah. And. Well, should we just take one little step back? Before we go into. That apartment itself, well, only in the fact that in all of this time, like they're interviewing slowly they get more information out of her.

1:01:27 And part of that information that she gives that is consistent is the room that she was in. That's a very good point. There's a there's particular stuff she says about that room 1 being a coffee table that was in the room, and it's quite a. Distinctive coffee table. Yeah, this is the thing. She does describe this coffee table as having like this marble, fake marble top, whatever. And to the point where Keith, because Keith is, and I get this entirely, he's at a point of like, she's been kidnapped.

1:01:52 Like, do they know where we live? Are our kids safe? Is she's safe? Are they going to come back? Like, I can understand that fully. So he's like, I want these people found and I want this, you know, sorted. So he was always like trying to get more out of it. But yeah. So he even found like a picture on the web on on the, you know, searching on Google for images and kind of found a table that she went, yeah, like that one. It's kind of like that that he then gave to the the FBI and said she says it looks a bit like this.

1:02:16 He actually. Contacted the FBI so many times. Every time Sherry would remember something or give something that he, yeah, didn't know. Yeah, he would tell the FBI. The other thing that she described was the rooms itself in terms of being the fact that she was, you know, had this waste chain around her that there was lock yeah, which was then linked to the wardrobe. And the wardrobe had this very interesting setup of like some shelving at the top where there was a pole that went through and that her chain was on a on a angry to that.

1:02:47 Yeah. And that she was attached to that basically the entire time, other than when she was allowed to use the bathroom and. Although she did say in one of her interviews that she used a Kitty litter box in the wardrobe. There was like a bucket. There's a yeah, that was like a bucket in the yeah, she reckons anyway. But yeah, but. Again, I think that was only one interview. She said that she forgot about that detail and subsequent interviews, allegedly. And then there was this bed and there was these boarded up windows, all these things.

1:03:14 So, yeah, so when they rock up at this James's house, when you go into the bedroom there, those things are tick, tick, tick. She was accurate, like, and it was actually what found what actually part of what led them to James was that he they were looking into him when they found this familiar DNA and kind of went, well, OK, that could be then she actually knows this person in that family. Could it be him? They looked at his Facebook profile and I think it was even his profile picture. There was a photo of him on like a beanbag leaning back.

1:03:42 And in the very corner of the photo is a coffee table with this marble like top. Yep. And so yeah, they look at that and kind of go, well, hey, wait, this connect this is this has got to be the blight. It's it's an ex-boyfriend of hers known to her. And he's got the same coffee table she's described now. Yeah, I just. OK, we'll get to it later. I. Don't know, Go Oh. I don't know, I just at this point are the cops thinking of themselves. Yeah, this guy has kidnapped her and done this. But honestly, I think at the time, the cops alike, what the fuck is going on here?

1:04:18 Like, I think they're, I don't think they're like, oh, we've nailed this. Yeah, this is. Me. Yep, we've got it. We've got him, we've got him, we're gonna nail him. Yeah. I think it was more what the. She's been hanging, actually going with her ex-boyfriend, not. Now being abducted now in all of this as well. It's the other thing is that the FBI were forensically looking into everything to do with their lives. Yeah, now that would be so violating, but it is what it is. And but what they did, they've gone through all of their financial documents.

1:04:50 They've gone through all of Sherry's phone. And what they found was that Sherry had been conversing with two people who were in her phone under women's names who were actually men. Yep. Now the FBI went out and interviewed these men, and Sherry had been engaging in, I'm going to call it, an emotional affair with both. Yeah, she hadn't met up with one, but she had met up with the other. So who knows what happened in those rendezvous. I'm not sure. Amazing. Stuff that was happening at the start of their relationship that caused K post up.

1:05:24 You know, in some ways we can look at and kind of go act a little irrationally and put in this post up, post up agreement in place, but you kind of go, well, hang on a second. It was continuing, Yeah. It was still going on. Yeah, But the police ruled those two people out. But they how? Awful. Would that be though? Like your wife's missing and you, the cops are pulling you in to have conversations around things and they've just had to disclose to him of like, so she's been like having these conversations.

1:05:49 Do you know who these people are? Do you know what this would be about? See that interview on one of the documentaries has interviewed for. They're like, do you realize that she's got they're under women, women's names, but they're actually men she's been talking to. And he's like, he's like. What, what, what like how that's so like fuck with your brain stuff of like you're desperate to find the mother of your children, your wife, the person you love, and then you find out things about them that you go.

1:06:16 Yeah, but I feel like Keith fully compartmentalized is that. Yeah, at the time, which fair if that's. Him if he could do it like that. If that's what you need to do, that's what you need to do. Because all he cared about, I think at that time was just finding Sherry and finding her alive, which is fine. So anyway, the police are interviewing James now, having ruled out these other two ex acquaintances of Sherry's. Yeah, but also with the DNA. Also with the DNA that's right. So James, basically they so his interview with the FBI and the police weren't.

1:06:52 Very interesting. Hours and hours now. The FBI agent that stands like, you know, and at this point we were like 2 years in with Sherry and really clutching at small amounts of information, yeah, like barely getting much out of her and her consistencies. Within an hour we got a full proper story out of him basically. So when they first interview started the interview and again, you can see this online, he or you can actually see parts of it in the documentary as well. But he basically is like, no, no, I don't know what you're talking about.

1:07:23 Don't know what you're talking about. And they're like, you're, we know you're involved with this because your DNA has come up on things. And then he's like, oh, right. Well, I'll tell you what. Exactly what happened. Yeah. So James's version of events is that Sherry was incredibly unhappy in her marriage and that Keith was abusive towards her. And she'd reached out to him because she wanted some respite from all of it in. His words She was a friend in need. Yep. And so therefore I was. I'll be there for her.

1:07:53 And friends who knew them as a couple at the time said. You know, we always knew he was someone who would do anything for her. Oh, she obviously. Literally. And yeah, this is it. So what he says is that they arranged for him to pick her up. They used burner phones the. Two of them. That's a good point. Which? He says, I mean he does not hold back and the FBI clearly say he was credible in his interview. Yep. And stated that on Sherry's directive, they've got different got phones that weren't their regular phones because obviously.

1:08:29 Keith was suspicious of Sherry. Yeah, because. She would have. Potentially checked her phone, Checked her phone, checked for messages. Yeah, she knew that. Yeah. So she used that to say to him like, you know, let's get different, you know, phones that we're not being checked up on. Yeah. And so through that, they were communicating, like beginning those. And because they could, the FBI said they could save messages on her other phone from him. But then it kind of went quiet, building up to the eventual disappearance.

1:08:54 So there's a point where she was like, let's switch to these burner phones, yeah. So according to James, he'd actually lost his license at the time, so he was unable to get a car. Yeah. And so one of his Co workers rented a car for him and he drove, I think I believe it was like, how many hours? It was multi hours. Yeah. So long. It was a long. Drive, Yeah. To get her. So he lived in California, but very Southern California, where she lived far more north in Reading. And so. Yeah, he was in Costa Mesa at the time.

1:09:26 Yeah. And so he's rented this car, driven up, picked her up. She has gone in the back seat and laid down for the entire trip home. And apparently, According to him, she slept the whole way home. He is exhausted, having just completed what would be an 18 hour round trip. They get back to his house, and she insists that he bought up the windows. Yeah. And. That did everything she told, He told. She told me she he just did it all. Now this is this I find bizarre. I don't know about you, but what he claims is that all of the injuries that Sherri sustained were because she asked him to either do them on her or she did them to herself.

1:10:09 Now he says that she starved herself and that's how she lost such a significant. Amount of weight. She would offer her food and she would just say no, I don't want to. Eat. She asked him. According to him, she asked him to hit her in the face with a hockey A hockey stick. Yep, that's what broke her nose. She bashed her head into the coffee table at some point of her own volition. Yep, she asked him to go to some hardware store to get the items with which to brand her. Did you see in the Court in a Lie documentary in that in the section where she pulls out her kit of that at home.

1:10:49 It's exactly she's like doing it as like to try and get sympathy and saying like, you know, I just can't do this anymore. So it used to be my love and my a bit of a passion. I would do this, but now I can't after what James did to me. Fuck me. No, you knew what you were doing by, you know, getting that equipment because you knew how it worked. Yeah, I just it blew my mind that she thought that people would see that as a not connected that she couldn't she how would he know to go and get that? Equipment 100% we used.

1:11:14 To talk about how he used to love doing that and he knew that. So she was saying in that documentary that she'd make coasters for people with their initial. For like for Christmas, Christmas, which I'm sure she did because she. That's who she was. Yeah. Yeah. And then she was basically saying that, you know, because. Good. Yeah. Because she was saying that her and James would talk about that, that she made those and that then he had the idea to go and buy that and brand her. No, no. She was like, I've got I've got this kid at home.

1:11:41 I do this with wood. Do that to me on my shoulder. I'm sorry. That's exactly how that went down. Yeah. Yeah. No. It's so fucked up. Totally. So then, according to James, on Thanksgiving morning, she said to him, Oh, no, sorry. The night before Thanksgiving, she said to him, I really miss my kids. I need to get back to my kids. And so they got in the car and she asked him to shackle her with the chains around her waist and. Apparently, she said she put them on herself. Really. Yeah. Oh fucking hell.

1:12:18 Yeah, she put them on herself and that's why, like when you see that footage of her running. Yeah, along the church car park, they're not actually on properly yet. She waits to put them on where she doesn't have to run anymore and where she can. That's interesting because it looks like she's been dumped. I actually. Thought in that footage though she is running a bit now. She's not. Is it because she's holding the chains? Maybe? Yeah, it's not actually that she's bound. Yeah, there's kind of people sort of look at it and go, yeah, there's not her legs.

1:12:42 She when she's found like the way she's like bounced in that when she's actually found, she couldn't have run like she ran. Yeah, OK, yeah, yeah. I mean there's so many holes to her story Yeah. But what Sherry claims happened in those 22 days. So her story obviously changes. So the FBI have then confront Sherry. They bring fascinating that oh, I. Love that and they did so well. Those cops did a brilliant job in that interview. Amazing. Yes to like. Amazing. She had, they had Keith and and Sherry in the room, which I love that the way the reasoning for doing that is seeing if there's any communication between the two of them that indicates anything to, you know, really rule out if Keith knew of any of this, if this was a, you know.

1:13:23 Were they trying to get? Trying to get money, were they trying to get, you know, media attention, whatever. So that was going to rule that out or confirm it and but also put her in this massive hot seat and wow, that's it was good police work that I really thought that. Was really agreed so they basically say to Sherry you know thank you so much for coming in we've got some information for you you're just letting you know you're not under arrest you're free to leave at any time but basically we know that you've done this you know basically we they.

1:14:00 The DNA's come back with. The DNA's come back. We have we know about James and she's like, she's like what what? And she I can, you can almost in that video, even though it's like CCTV, you can see the cogs turning kind of. Oh yeah, because the first thing that she's doing, yeah, that look and she's. Oh, I know what you're about to say. Cannot stand the way she sits in this fetal fetal position like that just does my headache. And it's and it's something that when you watch videos of her prior to her being abducted, this is not a trauma response from what happened to her.

1:14:35 This is something she had done all forever, that she makes herself look tiny and painting OK, and she's not well. No, no, no, no. So basically, this is actually so funny. It really reminds me of there's a podcast that I used to listen to and it was about, it was one, it was a Mama Mia podcast. And anyway, they used to talk about different celebrities and stuff. And they talk about Ariana Grande doing this like trying to be little and like how her bodyguard always carries her like she's a baby, like she's an infant.

1:15:11 And you can find photos of Ariana Grande online with that. And you're like, oh fucking hell. And I'm like, this is fucking Cherie Papini all over again. Like she is, she tries to make herself look infantile. It's bizarre. And you're right. It's not since her this apparent or alleged trauma. No, this is. Free that way back, yeah, she's. It's a manipulative tactic that she uses. People people though, say her supporters say that this was probably a response to when she was sexually assaulted as a minor.

1:15:45 I don't disagree with that. Yeah. But it, it is a manipulative thing of like, you know, it's again, it's like trying to get people's sympathy. Sympathy. Yeah. It's I'm little, I'm like. I'm vulnerable. I'm I'm actually. And I'm sorry, she's freaking just beating the shit out of herself and, you know, branded herself. That's not that's not Well, she didn't. Brand herself. She convinced someone else to Brand. Her, but she's allowed herself to be branded. Anyone who wants to go through that has chosen to go through that.

1:16:14 Yeah, that's bizarre. I'm sorry. See, this is this is where I'm like, oh, what kind of culpability does James have in this? Because absolutely he should be. In my opinion, he needs to be charged with assault. Well, it's hard because it is what what they're saying is consensual. She consented to these things. But but how can you consent to being physically assaulted?

1:16:38 She did she. I know, I know, I know. According to him, she. Did I know? Yeah. And that's the thing the police said in that first initial interview, right? If she had sat there and said right, I'm like confessing now, yes, it was James that abducted me and he, he did these things to me. If she had done that in that interview, they would have then looked further into James and potentially the charges would have gone there. But that's not what she did. No. That's not what she did, so therefore they know that it's all lies.

1:17:08 So what she what? What Sherry says once they call her out on all this, she's like, no, no, it wasn't James. It wasn't James. Yeah. Meaning she like she's trying to say to the police and the FBI that she can't believe that James was involved in there. It was still the two Hispanic. Women. Yeah, she's still doubling down on that. But I can't believe James was behind that. Yeah. And they're like, no, no, no, no, no, no. That's. Not what? No, there were no. They outright say it to it. James. We spoke to James.

1:17:43 He's told us you told him to do these things to you. Now, 3 days before they pulled her in to tell her this, yeah, they made James. Or well, they asked James to undertake a polygraph. Yep, he passed that polygraph with flying colours. Yeah. No issues. No, there wasn't about it one. Issue. Yeah. The one of the particular questions he passed was did Sherry ask you to brand her? And he said yes. And there was no indicators that he was lying in that. Yeah. There were. There were so many questions. Yeah, heaps of them.

1:18:17 In particular, he was directly. Asked that one a long time. Yeah. So the police and the FBI are like Ryan we've got here. She double s. Yeah, they took a long time before the next next steps though they that wanted to get they crossed cross their TS and dot their eyes big time to take go any further. With her, she fucking double S down on it, doesn't she? Absolutely. Yeah. She. So basically what happens then is over that course of, I mean how many years was that? Another two years. Another two years.

1:18:45 Yeah, it wasn't till March 2022, fucking hell that they actually arrested her. Yeah, so. But in that time, she's changed. She's had enough time, obviously, to think about this and think about what her story is going to be. And what she says is that she was going for a run that day, that she was kidnapped. In their quote, she claims that she'd been in contact with James, but she didn't know he was coming up to see her. She says that. Or did she know that he was coming up but she wanted to end up with him or something?

1:19:19 Or. No, she said at one point she she said so many different stories. She actually did say that at one point that she wanted to break up with him face to face because. What she was just basically saying is eventually, she says she didn't want to say that James was involved because she was having an emotional affair with him. Yeah. And that she didn't want to find out about that because of the pre post not that's right. A post not. So yeah, she was saying that she was going to end it with him and he arrived and pulled up like she was they were going to meet up or something.

1:19:50 And then he appeared, and at the car at that. Corner, I don't think. I think her story was that she didn't know he was coming that day. That day, yeah, I don't think I think she was on the job kind of knowing that she was going to catch up with him and planning to end it. But. Why would he talking anyway? Whatever. Yeah, but basically what she says is that he got her into the car, drugged her. Yeah. She opened her eyes at one point and didn't really know where she was, but it was daylight and then she couldn't keep her eyes open anymore.

1:20:19 And then the next time she opened her eyes, she was at his house. Yeah. 9 hours away, Yeah. Or whatever. Many, many hours away, Yeah. And that he kept her captive, he starved her, he beat her. Wouldn't. Starve her, apparently, because she said the first meal he gave her, he, she, it had drugs in it. And so then from then on, what, she wouldn't eat anything that he gave her was what she said. Yeah. Because she was like, oh, no, no, he was drugging me. And so I didn't want to take any, eat any of the food.

1:20:51 Yeah. Yes, he hit her with a hockey stick. Yes, he branded her. She does say that he didn't sexually assault her. Yeah. Which I find interesting and what she says is so the other thing actually just before we get to this as well is before before all this happened, she did composite sketches of these two Hispanic women. Now, in her explanation of how this all unfolded, she said that the older of the two women, she based on an image of James's mum. Now, the FBI had a private investigator who was looking into all of this from API perspective.

1:21:42 Yeah. And what the private investigator found was that James's mum wasn't Hispanic. She was actually Irish. Yeah, redheaded. Yeah. Didn't look pale skin and didn't look Hispanic at all when they. Put that to her in the doctor, I know, and she's just like, oh, I don't know. I'm not limited twice anyway. Now if I could meet somebody for three seconds and be like, you're not Hispanic, you're a redheaded headed Irish. Person. But that to me says that she actually, when she's met this person, has not absorbed any information about them because I don't mean anything to her.

1:22:18 To me, she says so much about her. But she actually says that even in the documentary, she's like, Oh well, it didn't, it was his mom. It's but I'm talking about James. Yeah. And he was his. Boyfriend for like 12 months at some point. Yep. Like she's so self absorbed. So. Self that she hasn't even noticed what his parents look like. Like it's so such, it makes her such an awful human being. Such an awful human. She is an awful, awful human. Yeah, no. Regardless of anything, yeah, she's an awful human I can't stand.

1:22:56 So in the documentary, the one that she did, the the. Caught in a lie? Caught in a Lie documentary, yeah. There is not one moment, even though that documentary, I think she thinks people are going to be sympathetic to her. There is not one moment in that documentary that I'm like, oh you poor thing. I'm like you fucking first of all, she's a fucking lunatic. She really is. She's a total fucking lunatic. I know that's an I know. That's like a non PC thing to say. She shouldn't. Say that about people.

1:23:32 But she is like so fucked up. Yeah, Oh. She does not live in reality. No, the and to the point of at the end. Of it? What about the beep at the very very start of that? Documentary. Start where she's like, she does this thing and she's like, oh, that's my magic wand. Do you know what I'm talking about? Yeah. And she's like, I'm going to say ridiculous things because this whole situation is ridiculous. Oh, she's just. She's awful, so awful. Oh God, what did she say that at the opening line of it of like, you know, this is my chance to say hi, I'm Sherry Papini and you haven't met me or some.

1:24:08 Bullshit, you don't even know me. Yeah, Yeah, we do. I've. Got I think we know everything we actually fucking need to know about. You ever want to meet somebody? Her. Need for attention, sympathy and external validation blows my fucking mind. Yeah. Well, so in that same documentary, they bring in her psychologist, her actual psychologist. This is so fucked up, go on. Oh my God. So now I have a real thing on this that OK, psychologists, If you need a psychologist, you go to a psychologist 100. A lot of like support for that.

1:24:46 Yep. However, if you genuinely need a psychologist, sometimes you're not going to like what that psychologist has to say to you. And This is why I think some people don't continue because absolutely sometimes it's hard to feel hard to. Say you're going to get told. So I do find that generally, generally these people who really need some psychology and some treatment tend to maybe shop around and find a psychologist who's going to tell them what they. Want to hear 0100? Percent. I don't know, maybe that.

1:25:11 This and who happened here and who did Sherry land on? Well, so I won't go into his credentials and who he is, to be honest, because I just, it doesn't, it doesn't really matter at the end of the day. He has decided that he thinks that she has a disorder by the name of self defeating personality disorder. He talks about this extensively in that documentary. Now it's also known as sorry masochistic personality disorder. Now this disorder, OK, first of all, I'll tell you what it is. OK, so the definition of it is that it describes A pervasive pattern of engaging in self sabotaging behaviours that undermine one's own happiness, success and goals, often by avoiding pleasure, choosing painful situations, reject, rejecting help or sacrificing for others.

1:25:57 Even when it causes personal distress, though, it's no longer oh, sorry, wait, no, OK, sorry. It's not in the DSM. Five, it's not in the DSM 5, and neither is masochistic personality disorder. Neither of them are in the DSM 5. Doesn't then say that she's got some kind of histrionic? Personality does that one yes yeah, tick. So when you in that same documentary, there's another psychology. She's very well known and very well respected right and they even throughout I don't know really why they put her in there because she's basically the whole time going I really can't help you here because she's a whole piece of work like you know, and she talks about the possibility of histrionic personality disorder.

1:26:31 This one I do agree with yeah, he doesn't mention it, but I'm sorry, the whole self defeating personality disorder fuck off. It is so nice and lovely and you know, the poor thing. No sorry, self labotaging. Not in the way this that that describes it. Histrionic personality disorder, on the other hand, is a mental condition marked by excessive emotional and pervasive need for attention, causing dramatic, flirtatious, and often shallow behavior, behavior that makes maintaining authentic relationships difficult.

1:26:59 People with HPD feel uncomfortable when not the center of attention, use physical appearance to draw attention, to draw focus, express emotions rapidly and superficially, and treatment is usually long term and is quite often and well goes hand in hand with narcissistic and borderline personalities. 100% I mean, armchair armchair psychologist over here or psychiatrist over here 100% I'm sorry. She takes every frigging box. Oh my God, every. Even this one where it says it talks about the fact they often have vague speech.

1:27:34 So this speech is often impressionistic, lacking in detail, and overly dramatic. Oh my God. So I'll tell you what, yeah, she never fucking answers a question directly. No, no. Especially if it's one that's gonna get her out. Yeah, the way she doesn't even answer. And she just, she'll literally change the subject and answer something different. And then the interviewer says to her, oh, wait a minute. No, no, you didn't understand. Yeah. And she still doesn't understand. She still doesn't answer it.

1:27:59 Now the other thing that we need to talk about is Keith's sister. OK, yeah, let's get into that. OK, so Keith's sister, yes, is so Sherry's sister-in-law now, she's said. Keith's sister says that she and Keith aren't all that close. Yeah. Sherry and her sister-in-law are close. Sherry, the sister-in-law. Only after this one went down. The sister-in-law, though, is a counselor and is counselling Sherry through marriage counsellor. She also let Sherry into a home and live with her. Yeah, after all, after the shit hit the fan with Keith, after Keith found out that.

1:28:45 Well, no. After she was like, no, sorry, no, no, no, no between, sorry, between when she was arrested. But Keith was like, I'm out. Yeah. And before she went to jail. Sorry. It's when she lived with, with her sister. With the sister-in-law. Yeah. So yeah, once Keith, obviously once Keith found out that all this ship had gone down with James, they separated. When she. I think there was the day she was arrested in March 2022. Yep. He separated from her that day. OK, Yeah, Yeah. Fair. Yeah. No, I Yep.

1:29:12 100% fair. Well, he also filed for. Full custody. Sole custody and was granted sole custody because his ex-wife or soon to be ex-wife was about to go into prison. So, well, that, and I mean, I'm sorry, these behaviours are very, very problematic and it I mean, there's other things that you brought up with that which we can discuss of whether or not we believe that and what the what that I'll is. But yeah, it it she's and it got some interesting mental health issues. I think that we need that need to be addressed around whether or not she is suitable to be around her children.

1:29:44 Definitely. So we've kind of jumped ahead a little bit here. So yeah, she was arrested. Yeah, she was charged. Now, what have I got here? She was charged with I've got it written down. Changed my page. Sorry, same. Oh my God, she's a Oh my God. She was charged with with making false statements to federal agents and mail fraud, which is about the fact that what she claimed was compensation money. So she was, there was two different types of compensation money, one from local services and one federally.

1:30:18 So there was services for her, for the psychologists and all those sort of things that she was having, which, yeah, a victim of crime that they deserve. Be getting it, getting some funding. For all that, and there was also some other money they took were not took, they were given that she was given about sort of getting her back on her feet, sort of helping her out. She couldn't. Work. And it was so it was about maintaining. There was, yeah, there was 2 buckets of money that she had accessed for compensation.

1:30:41 Yeah. So the fact that she'd accepted them and then falsely as they sort of found that, that becomes male fraud. That's it. Yeah. So she pled guilty in April of 2022 to those charges? Yeah. And admitted that the kidnapping was fabricated, Yes. And she was sentenced in September of that year to 18 months in federal prison and then three years of supervised release. And she had to pay back $300,000 for the restoration in restitution. Yeah. She ended up serving six months. Was it 1010 months? OK. And what?

1:31:16 Obviously, during that time, during the time that she was in prison, Keith filed for divorce and filed for the sole custody of their children. And he was granted both of those things. Their assets were divided in that time. What? No, no they weren't because there was the post nuptial agreement so she got nothing. Well, yeah, what I mean, sorry, I didn't mean divided. What I meant was the assets were settled. Yeah. What? Yeah, because. Yeah, she ended up getting absolutely. Nothing. So he had it pretty much signed, sealed and delivered in terms of that aspect.

1:31:47 Yeah. And the and the custody of the children. So yeah, that's where that sort of landed, yeah. Yeah, she had some contact with the children after she was released from prison, so she was. Only visitation rights once a month. Yeah. And one phone call a week, I think. I think so something like that. Yeah, But that was a case discretion, so it didn't always happen from what I can. Get Yeah, right. But you know, to this day she is battling that one still out in the courts in terms of custody. So that's still a see to what see what happens.

1:32:19 I believe her children are teens now. Yeah. So, I mean, they're gonna get to an age where they can make their own decisions on that, which she she will claim, if she I'm sure she's already claiming that they've been sort of poisoned by their father against her. I know immediately she has when the original documentary came out, which is 2024, she filed a claim a filed a suit against Keith being able to show the children that documentary because she felt that it showed her in a poor life. Prejudicial.

1:32:48 Yeah. Which I mean, I just, that's something that I mean, she's gonna actually lived with, I think. It's bizarre that he allowed those children to be in the documentary. Absolutely gonna go there. She I mean, look, she brings it up and that's probably the only thing in that entire court in a lie documentary that I go. I agree with you, Sherry. Yeah, I don't like that he put their faces and even their names. I mean, their names are probably out there, but I just names are out there. Yeah, they're out there.

1:33:14 But like, I mean, I, I personally don't think that children should be named or filmed in those things in those scenarios. I think that we need to protect them in every way possible. Even in that documentary, he talks about the fact that he's spoken with his kids around changing their names. And I'm like, if you've spoken to them to extent of like that, we might change our names to sort of have some anonymity. Anonymity. Oh my God, what time? It's late. It's late. We can. Record at night. Yeah, if he's that that fearful of like, you know, them having protection around that and changing their name, why are you putting their faces in a worldwide documentary?

1:33:54 100%. I don't that doesn't make sense. To me this is what makes me think with him. He gives me the creeps. As yeah, there's something not. Quite. There's something not quite right about him. I believe that he was controlling. I actually you can actually see that from certain behaviors that. But at the same time, and I don't mean to, like, protect anyone who's controlling, but if your partner, who you're in love with and you're like, you're like, I want this perfect life is doing things that you can't control, like having conversations with men outside the relationship and lying about things to the extent of what Sherry was doing to the point where they would.

1:34:29 They had gone to, like, a a gathering with friends and inadvertently, in playing a Wii game, he had knocked her in the face and given her a black eye. Right. She was telling people who weren't at that party that Keith had hit her. Yeah, like if that's the personality trait of the person you're living with, I can understand that feel of need for control like in that of like, how do I make this all better? How can? How do I make it right? But he still had a hand in the way, like he really wanted the portrayal of a, Oh yeah, being in this perfect family.

1:35:08 This is it, Sherry. Looked the part. Yes. And so I think he's not completely. No, no, no, there's definitely totally there's keeping up up appearances and then there's this level of it. Yeah, I completely agree with that. Yeah. But I can understand to a degree his controlling nature, yes, in dealing with someone with that personality. Totally understand what you're saying. Like, what else was he gonna do? Yeah, he had to control aspects of things to try and like keep, maintain some kind of, I don't know, normalities or whatever.

1:35:40 Yeah, no, I do understand. What you're saying? I really. I think we can judge him. Maybe poorly. Yeah. I don't know. She would send you baddy, I reckon. Oh, fuck. Oh, just like, just even. What's just watching the Court in a Lie documentary? Yeah, Oh my God, she is just. Yeah, I feel like she would gaslight you all day long and you would that would send you a bit Batty. And I think that's where that I feel for that sense of control from them of like wanting to kind of go. No, no, no, no, no, that's not how this is.

1:36:10 I'm going to do it this way. Like that's, you know, I don't know. Yeah, yeah, yes. But so going back to his the sister-in-law. Oh, yes. OK, so yeah, so she is a marriage counsellor, right? She was counselling a particular married couple by the name of Sean Hibdon. And I've just lost his wife's name at the time and they were on the verge of divorcing. Weirdly enough, his wife did pass away in 20/24/20 no 2020 two 20/20/2022 sorry from COVID. It was some really yeah, weird circumstances around her death.

1:37:00 I don't know. I don't know what I think of it. I don't know, I. Haven't looked. Look, I've very superficially looked into this because I mean, you couldn't not, but her name's Brittany. Brittany, thank you. Thank you. Sorry, it just came. To my headband but but.

1:37:19 Yeah, it's just too weird that it's weird she, she dies of COVID like 2 years after Covid's a thing. Yeah. And the young, healthy, yeah, vaccinated, all those things. I just kind of. And everyone said she was fine up until a certain point and yeah, you know, all these sorts of things. And he wasn't really overly concerned about her. And I don't know, there's lots of little Neely bits about it that didn't add up. And many people do believe that maybe he had subject. He also has a nursing background.

1:37:47 That was the other thing. Yep, that red flagged it. Yep. And so maybe knew what things needed could be done anyway. So anyway, this random person who's having counselling with Sherry's sister-in-law, all of a sudden he's in a in a relationship with Sherry and buys her a $775,000 home to live in. Well, so she says that he's just allowing her to. Stay. Well, that's broken up now. Oh. And does she still live in the home? She's trying to, yeah. So. Basically. What's happened? So fucking problematic.

1:38:25 She's. Problematic they. Fucking. Deserve each other. Oh my God. Yeah. So he's filed a an eviction case where. So she's this is the house in the court in a lied documentary, Yes, this is the house that she's into. She says all my friends are. Letting me live here. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, yeah, so she, he's trying to evict her. Now it's unclear as to whether or not she's actually living in it currently or whether and because this, this court case is playing out. But basically, so he he's claiming that she needs to get the hell out and she's clear declaring that she needs to stay there.

1:39:00 So he bought. The house for her. Yeah, yeah. So he's just trying to publicly humiliate me or, and face. So this is this is where it gets me. OK? This is what really gets me there. So this is exactly her words that Hibdon has made threats, both implied and explicit, that unless I purchase the home under specific unfavorable terms, I'll be evicted, publicly humiliated, or face further harm to my personal financial well-being. It's like victim, me, victim, victim every. Time. She's always the victim.

1:39:29 She's always the victim. Yeah, so the house is in Shingleton and he's basically claiming that she he she owes him $115.00 a day in rent. So anyway, but the other one in the similar vein, yeah, in that her mother-in-law loaned her some money against some for some criminal defense attorneys, and that was about 50 grand that she loaned her and she hasn't paid her back. So Kathleen Papini, Keith's mum, ended up taking her to court on that and she lost. So I mean, as in Sherry lost. So she has been. Told to pay back five $53,701.00 to Kathleen, which I don't believe she's paid back yet either I. Couldn't find any evidence to the fact that she'd even begun to pay that back.

1:40:16 But she also hasn't paid back the $300,000 that she owes the state. No, she's also the subject of a another court case where she's seeking a temporary restraining order against a woman who claims on her Go Fund Me account that her husband left her for Sherry Papini. So the woman, Catherine Parrick, said that she was left homeless after her husband left her. And Parrick has raised over $1300 towards a three and a half $1000 on her GoFundMe account. And Sherry is suing her for.

1:40:50 How much I don't know. Didn't say sorry. Oh no, sorry. She's not suing her. She's like seeking for a temporary restraining order against her so that she can. So she pulls down the the GoFundMe. So Papini is a bit of a lunatic. I really, I think you've hit the nail. She's just, I think she's forever going to be in a cycle. Of yeah, drama, yeah, because she thinks that she wants the drama. I, I, I think I really, I really urge people to watch the Court in a Lie documentary because I think she thinks she's coming across in some in a way that she's actually to me she's not coming across it.

1:41:30 No, and actually you get a glimpse of it at the end where she questions like the the interviewer of like, you know what do you think I'm coming off differently to how I think I am kind of is this not gonna be good for me? You know which she don't. If you don't hear the answer. Which is really interesting because obviously she's starting to tweak to the fact a little bit of like, oh, you mean that the rest of the people have spoken here have not spoken well of me, but. Also because the interviewer catches a rat and challenges her so many times.

1:41:57 But then she says to the interviewer when she gets caught out. Yeah, she says the interviewer, What? You've never lied? Tell me you've never lied. No, I've never lied about being and kidnapped and like everyone. Tells right lies, but this is like. This isn't to that. This isn't that, you know? That's not the same thing. You can't tell me that that's the same thing. The fuck off. Fact that she thinks that's the same thing. Yeah, is really. Really wrong. So wrong. That's where she's just so wrong.

1:42:22 So. Deluded. Then there's the comment from the mum in the documentary in that court in a lie documentary. Now the parents are sat in that and interviewed properly. When you see them in the other documentary, yeah, you don't see much of them. They're kind of non existent. But in that next one they see because she lives with him from for a period of time as well after she's. Really. And she's prison until she lives in the boyfriend's house. But she's like mended the relationship with them and all these things and they're fabulous people.

1:42:46 Oh bullshit, and they look so different in that interview too than what they did in the other one anyway. I know, I know. Yeah. But it's insane. The mum makes a comment in that documentary where she says she wasn't kidnapped and what she thinks happened was that she's been caught in this lie and it she fully says it, she says the quiet bit out loud and. The things. She goes on the viral files, though, Sherry and she's questioned on there about it and they she really she's like, Oh no, if you ask my mum about that now she'll tell you a different story because she's she was she was misquoted.

1:43:23 She. Wasn't misquoted, it was. Really clear what it was. Very clear what she was. Saying, yeah, that she believes that you lied about being kidnapped and it wasn't a kidnapping. She just wanted to spend time with her boyfriend. Yeah. Quite literally, and I think her mum's fucking nailed it on the head. There the other one that she gets caught out in in that documentary is about what she does with her phone when she gets kidnapped to So when originally when she was picked up and they went through what happened.

1:43:53 Her original story that she's talked to for quite some time was that when these two Hispanic women came at her, she was like, I want Keith to find me, so I will. I threw my phone down knowing that he would find that and ripped some of my hair out. Right. Yep. And so it threw it down is what she said. And that was the story she told of that right through. Yep. On that documentary, she says, oh, yeah. Well, no. When James got there and I wasn't expecting to be there, I put my phone down and then went.

1:44:26 And then he, I got in the car or whatever. Or she can't remember how she got in the car. Yeah, and they said to her also, when did you take the hair out then? Yeah. And she went, what are you talking about? I don't know what you're talking about. Yeah. She didn't remember to add that detail, but. She'd said that. Not only said that, but there's there's the evidence of it is the hair is there. And then a number of times the interviewer asks her about it to try and get the information and she cannot fix what she said because it didn't.

1:44:53 She did it the way she argued. She did it the way she said it originally. Agreed. In her staging of it, yes. But now it doesn't fit. The reality of what? Oh, her new reality. Her new story Of what story? That's exactly right. Yeah. Oh man. Oh, there's so much to this story. It is just fucking unbelievable. A couple of other things that I just wanted to note. Yeah, when she was naming the two women. These are just funny little tidbits. Oh God, I didn't hear this. So she she called them one Taint.

1:45:25 One was supposedly named Taint. That's what she heard her being called, supposedly. And the other one, smegma. Do you know what smegma is? Smegma what are? Secretions from your downstairs area. So 1 was smegma and 1 was taint. The other thing? Again, that goes back to that it's awfully racist crap. I think I just she's, she's really got she's. Disgusting. She really is absolutely disgusting. And then the other fun fact is that Eminem references the kidnapping of Sherry Papini in Houdini. So it's the line is, yeah, caught sleeping and see, the kidnapping never did happen.

1:46:06 No, like Sherry Papini, Harry Houdini, I vanish into thin air as I'm leaving. It's like Eminem was here. He was all over it. Yeah, fuck off. I was going to imagine if I tried to actually rap. Like I'll give some priority and he can do. It yeah, you would have given me way more shit if I'd actually tried. To oh, 100%. People would be disappointed if I did that, yeah. So that, you know, this has become a story that I think everyone knows is a story like it's a. Story. Yeah. And look, I feel for James in this on a level.

1:46:44 There's a point of me that kind of goes, hey, he took this on and he did this and I I agree with you at a point there's got to be somehow that he's gets repercussion of doing what he did. Yeah, I I'm not saying that. But also he's got caught up in something of her bullshit where he now has he leaves, he's had to move away and hide because he just and he doesn't want anything to do with any of this now. Like he's I'm out. Like, yeah, I mean, I do feel for him on our level as well-being involved in this because she's she's got serious issues in just being able to manipulate people.

1:47:17 She has a talent in that area to be able to do that. Then the other. But I think he's like. Does is part of a talent? You know the way she looks and the way she she. Uses that. It's part of that history. History. Histrionic. Personality. Personality disorder. That she can. She does that. She uses all what she's got to her advantage, Yeah. And manipulates people to do what she wants. Yeah, and get the the sympathy from people. She's just, Oh my God, she's. Fucking I Honestly, I think it's a hard thing to say, yeah, because I can't even imagine this happening to me, but no.

1:47:54 She's definitely one out of a box. She needs not. What I'm saying is she needs to not be around her children. She needs to not be around people who are impressionable like I. I do agree. I do think that she at best having the visitation that she has, knowing so her kids know this, that's my mom and that's who she is and understanding her. Yeah. But at this point in their lives, I don't think that really is more they should have to do with her as adults. They can then choose later on definitely what kind of relationship they want to have with her because I think they're going to need to be careful about those relationships they have with her.

1:48:32 Yes, if, if Keith is as a good man as maybe he is, maybe, I don't know, he will get them a lot of help to deal with that. I hope they're getting help. Yeah, I I can't. I don't know. Keith to me. I have. Problematic in and of. Varying opinions of him, I don't know, There's something, there's something that just. But you'd have to be someone a little bit off center, I think, to have married her, yeah. But I think he liked the the image of. Her Oh yeah, this is it. I think that I think that's what he's.

1:49:03 His fault is in. It, yeah, I mean, he had a think. He had a thought of what his life was going to be, and it's not what ended up happening at all. Yeah. Even Sherry's sister says that Sherry has always just wanted attention of the quote from her is I think she wasn't getting the attention that she wanted being at home. Yeah. I think she just really wanted to feel important. Yeah, she always has. Yeah, that's from her own sister. That's a direct. Quote and look, I'm not stupid in thinking that this is a she's not Born This Way.

1:49:37 This is something that has gone on in her childhood to create this, but she is now an adult and therefore she is responsible for her actions. Definitely. I do think that obviously there was trauma in her childhood that has created someone who desperately needs, you know, attention, negative or positive attention. Like, it doesn't matter what it is as long as it's attention. Yeah. Really, at the end of the day, drama is drama and I'll take all of it like you know, but at the same time. She needs trauma in quite.

1:50:09 Perfect. You know, like I'm. Yeah, I I'm. She's very, very. She's very interesting. That's a damn sure. Yeah. If only a real psychologist could. Can I say that? Yeah. Oh. Yeah, I feel like you can. Absolutely. That gives me the crepes. Yep, Yep. Because to me it sounded like from that original documentary with Keith that it was a female psychologist they were seeing together. But was that the original guy that was seeing? Yeah. I don't know. OK. Yeah, I think so. I know creepy. It's just a bit creepy.

1:50:43 He's a bit creepy. There's something about him. Just Nah. The thing that makes me the angriest about Cheri Papini, though, is that my default is I always want to believe the victim. Yep. And this, the whole time we're watching these documentaries and stuff, she just makes me so angry because I can't just default to believing, believing her. And it makes me feel not not believing her. Yeah. But then you just. I feel like I'm not, not now I'm going to get shat on for believing her. And so I can't believe you.

1:51:16 Like, you know, I know, Yeah. Because awful. I mean, you and I, we're on the same page on this. We believe women, we believe victims. We of course, that's, that's our default position in 99.9% of cases. Yeah. But women like her put a shadow on that. And that's not OK, no. No. Look, and it even makes me question the validity of her claims as a younger woman. Yeah. You know, where did the lies start? I Look, I believe there was trauma in your childhood. I do believe. That but now it's really hard to say what and that and.

1:51:55 How severe I. Mean Dad even said it in the documentary, saying that in the future, if you, if anything happens, you're going to need so much evidence to be able to prove anything, you know, because otherwise you're always going to be the liar. And it's so true because I literally read those comments about her, about this other guy. He could be the biggest dirtbag going around doing nasty shit to her. Do I believe her or him? I believe him. Yep. Because of the past. You know, you learn from what people's past behavior is.

1:52:20 That's right. And Doctor Phil. Yeah. Oh God, make me vomit. The best prediction of future behavior is past behavior. It. Annoys me that he actually says stuff that's true. It's true. And amongst all this shit, oh

1:52:37 God, yeah. So that's just, it's so frustrating. She's so frustrating. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think let's leave it there. Yeah, because we could go on all day about all. Of yeah, chat to us in the social. Space, I really, I'm so curious to know what people think. Yeah. And if you've watched both documentaries, where do you land? Yeah. I want to know where people land because I can actually see potentially how people could have varying opinions on this. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Let us know. Please let us know.

1:53:08 Yeah, please let us. Know tell me how you came to that different conclusion yes. Yeah, I know the case we're doing next week. We're doing the Grano family murders. Oh, the Grano family massacre. Yeah, that'll be good. Yeah. Yeah. Excellent. Yeah, I'm a bit excited about that. That'll be fun. It will be. It'll be very interesting. Well, maybe not fun. Interesting. Yeah, nothing else I haven't like. Looked at that since I think it happened. So I'm actually be interested to get back to it and have to get into a deep deep dive.

1:53:39 For sure. Cool. All right, well, thank you, everybody for joining us today. We really appreciate it. Please go and join us over on TikTok just to make Meg feel better. Yeah, Yeah. And. Not just talking to the abuse. Not preaching to to no one. Thank you for joining us for our second episode of 2026, and we look forward to everything else that this year is going to bring. Yeah, stay curious, crime besties. Bye.

1:54:19 Think every time I've seen you for probably 3 months, I go home and go. I didn't say it to her again. Really, really important. I'm nervous.

1:54:33 Real Housewives of Miami, you said to me so long ago I watched the reunion. It's like mouth jaw-dropping, like, you know, yes, yes it is. Holy shit when she says they were having the affair, the two of them. Oh my God, I know. I literally was like, because, you know, I'm like, I'm up so late that I was watching it and I'm going holy fuck, holy fuck. I literally typed out a message to you, like writing stuff. And then when she's gonna be asleep, it's off right here. It has been a fair. I knew what was happening.

1:55:11 Oh my God, how good is? It Oh my God, it was so long ago, but I'm like, I have to. Sell it. I know. It's so fucking good. It's so fucking good.

1:55:23 Yeah, that's so funny. Don't go to bed so early, it's

1:55:31 my housewife's time and I can't pass. Up with her, I love it. Oh my God.