Episode 74 - The Mysterious Case of Sherri Papini: Truth or Deception?

0:15 Welcome back to Crime Besties to episode #74, our second of 2026.

0:20 Here we are. Yeah, we're here.

0:21 We're doing this. That's great.

0:23 Oh my God, It's been a bit of a bit of a slog to get here.

0:26 We've had dog issues, we've had computer issues.

0:30 Dog. Issues I get over 'cause she's

0:32 way too cute so it's fine she's. Cute, but she she's been a bit

0:36 annoying tonight, but anyway, that's OK.

0:39 All the trials and tribulations of having a having a puppy

0:41 that's. It and producer Pete's decided

0:43 to piss off to the soccer and we've had to schedule this

0:47 recording for at night time because it's bloody school

0:50 holidays. So be appreciative people.

0:54 We're doing our best. We're doing our best.

0:56 If you hear shit in the background, it is what it is

0:58 what it is. How dare pet producer Pete want

1:01 to have a good time? I mean, it's just rude.

1:03 It's. Actually just really rude.

1:05 Very, very rude. How has your week been?

1:08 Busy, I mean it's school holidays.

1:10 We have done everything these last few days.

1:13 I'm I want to know like 3 full on days of just full on school

1:18 holiday fun. We've had pools with water

1:21 slides, we've had farm excursions, we've had God, what

1:26 else have we been doing? I've forgotten and everything

1:28 been the beach, the Lotus. We started.

1:30 Lotus Gardens, yes, that was great yeah, we've done all sorts

1:34 of stuff and golf, mini golf, all of it done both love it yeah

1:38 God no. It's been a full on few days of

1:40 jam packed fun and hilarity, losing children and.

1:45 And exhaustion at the end of those days, you're gonna be

1:48 like, oh, fuck, how did, how do I do this?

1:50 Oh. I know yesterday was a huge day.

1:52 I mean, I think picked up my little one from here after a

1:55 sleepover as well, you know, and headed off to down to the beach

1:58 way to go to a farm thing for the day, which I think we've got

2:00 here about 8:30 in the morning and we get home, home until God,

2:05 I had to win 7:00 at night. Oh, that's a massive day.

2:07 Yeah. I have to say, though, he was

2:09 awesome for the sleepover. I reckon they were asleep by

2:13 about 9:00, maybe. Maybe 9:30.

2:16 Yeah, but he slept. So I went to BFT yesterday

2:20 morning. So I was up at 5:20 and Lucas

2:23 heard me and he got up. I think he was so excited that

2:25 Brody was here. And I'm like, mate, just try and

2:28 be quiet. Like Brody sleepless.

2:29 Yeah, yeah. Let Brody sleep as long as he

2:31 can. I got home from BFT at 7:15.

2:33 He was still asleep. Oh, he was telling me all the

2:35 details of your morning of how and we'd been to BFT and then

2:38 Peter had cooked this and then Peter done this and then Emma

2:40 don't get done that. And like I got the full rundown.

2:43 Yeah, there's no secret. I know that was gorgeous.

2:47 They had a lovely time, which, yeah, which is great.

2:50 That's what school holidays are for.

2:51 A bit of a. Love each other sick, those two.

2:53 It's just so. Gorgeous.

2:55 Bit of a sleepover. It was really good.

2:57 Now we've got a few things we really need to talk about before

3:00 we get into today's. Yes, first thing, the bones that

3:03 were found in Philip Island. Now, we are recording this

3:05 probably a week and a half before it comes out, so I'm

3:08 hoping we'll know a little bit more by the time this episode

3:10 comes out. But yesterday they found some

3:14 bones when they were doing an excavation on a property in

3:17 Philip Island. Farmers, some tradies were doing

3:19 some digging for some trenches and yeah, long behold, you had a

3:22 skull. Skull.

3:23 I mean, how would it be for the tradies?

3:24 To fire it would have been awful.

3:26 Just. Terrible, but Oh my God, imagine

3:29 if it is Vivian. Imagine, oh, I mean it.

3:32 It puts a decades old, you know, unsolved cold case debate.

3:38 It's next week that Vicky Petratus's.

3:42 Book comes out it is. Which is.

3:44 I mean, you'd be spewing, wouldn't you?

3:46 Well, that's resolution. There's gonna.

3:48 Be some sort of resolution to it all yeah yeah ohh God definitely

3:51 this month yeah I think it's the 28th for some reason going ahead

3:54 I feel like I feel. Like that's.

3:55 Right. The social that's 28th Janet

3:57 comes out, but I mean, it'll it'll pump sales up for a book I

4:01 think probably either way. So, yeah, you know, but she's

4:05 been pushing this for a long time.

4:07 I mean, she's been, you know, Yeah.

4:09 So hopefully, I mean, for everyone, I mean, God, the

4:11 family. I really hope this answers.

4:12 It's just awful. Yeah.

4:15 I mean, could it mean somebody or?

4:19 Could something happen, like if you mean like in terms of

4:23 prosecutions in the case? Wouldn't that be interesting?

4:25 Oh my God, we need to watch this space.

4:27 Obviously. I mean, look, it might turn out

4:29 it's not even her remains. I mean, yeah, because I mean

4:32 what? But then.

4:32 Who would it? Be like this is the thing on the

4:34 island. There's not another missing

4:36 person in mysteries of down there who would be missing down

4:39 there? But I mean, who knows someone

4:41 who had taken someone down there and because apparently the house

4:43 was built in the mid 80s, which lines are?

4:46 Lines are with. It being potentially a building

4:48 site around the 1986 timeline, Yeah.

4:53 Interesting. Interesting.

4:56 Yeah. And what a chance encounter.

4:58 Oh. God.

5:00 I mean, you'd be spewing if you were the one who put the.

5:02 Body. Well, wouldn't you?

5:05 I mean, it's not funny. But no, it's not.

5:07 What are the chances? Yeah, but that's exactly where

5:10 they needed to dig. A trench was exactly where you

5:13 bloody buried a God. If that's how they, you know

5:16 that you get caught now because of it, you kind of just would

5:18 have to be like, well, well. Try my best, try my best.

5:22 I got this far, had decades, got.

5:24 To be a point where you go, this is all gotta this is for a

5:28 reason. I was meant to get found out,

5:29 like, you know what I mean? Like totally, I had to die.

5:31 Like if that's the case, like don't fight it because oh.

5:34 For sure. Oh.

5:35 Just like, I mean, of course they do, of course they do

5:38 because that's it would be that personality type to have done it

5:41 in the first place. I guess that's where that comes

5:43 into play. Totally.

5:45 I guess we'll get into with this one as well today.

5:47 Oh, yeah. All right.

5:48 Look, we caught up during the week and I said to you just this

5:52 is just an aside, but I said to you, how you going with your

5:54 research for this week's case? And you're like, we cannot talk.

5:56 We cannot talk because if I start talking.

5:58 Same. So like, OK, but it's so hard

6:01 not to because it's like right in the forefront of our minds.

6:04 Totally. Before we get into all of that,

6:07 IA few other things that I yeah, we've had a pretty busy week as

6:11 well, but we've actually got like a mental weekend.

6:13 Oh yeah. So tomorrow night we've got

6:16 friends of ours. It's their 40th birthdays.

6:18 Their birthdays are only a couple of days apart, right?

6:20 And it is a 90s themed dress up. Oh, I.

6:24 Love a dress up party? I hate dress up.

6:26 I know that about me, but I love that for you.

6:28 Oh. I'm so excited Peter and I are

6:30 going as Mia Wallace and Vincent Vega from Pulp Fiction.

6:35 Oh I love this. I need photos.

6:38 You'll get photos. We had to buy our wigs from

6:40 Amazon. Does Peter do a dress up that

6:42 doesn't involve spot? Star Wars?

6:44 Oh. Yeah, you haven't seen him in

6:45 the ostrich. Oh no, I haven't seen him in the

6:47 ostrich costume. He loves to dress up.

6:49 That man, oh, I know he loves to dress up, but it's usually Star

6:52 Wars theme that's. True, that is actually very.

6:54 That's very, very fair. Maybe I'll pop a photo in our

6:58 Patreon, Patreon feed with our our dress up.

7:02 Yeah, my mum and dad are going as well.

7:05 So, but Mum, Mum, I said to mum and dad, oh, what are you guys

7:08 going as? Mum's like, Oh no, it's a

7:09 surprise. I'm not letting you know.

7:11 I'm like, why wouldn't you tell? Me, wouldn't it be funny if you

7:15 both rocked up in the same? Well, I've told her what we're

7:19 going as, so they better fucking not.

7:20 That would. Be so funny.

7:22 I'd better not. I'd pay for that.

7:25 That would be gold. I should imagine it actually.

7:28 I would hate it. Do it, Lynn.

7:31 Do it. Anyway, we'll see.

7:37 I'm I'm really like excited to see what other people are

7:39 wearing. I'm like really curious.

7:41 Yes, friends of ours are going. Other friends of ours are going

7:44 is like the the two main characters from Jurassic Park.

7:48 We've got some people who are like wearing band T-shirts.

7:52 So there's gonna be a bit of a mix, I think.

7:53 Yeah, yeah, good. Some people go all out and

7:55 others just, you know, mild. Yeah, that's cool.

7:58 Band T-shirt sounds like the way to go for me.

8:00 Yeah, I feel like you'd be a band T-shirt or some kind of

8:02 like a Seinfeld T-shirt or something.

8:04 Off to the side, Yeah, Yeah. It's funny you mentioned

8:07 Seinfeld was out at a restaurant recently and in the background

8:09 was ATV with Seinfeld on it. And I said to my boys one day,

8:12 we are watching every one of those, you know?

8:16 Yeah, Before I met Peter, I'd only watched the odd episode of

8:19 Seinfeld. I know, I know.

8:22 But when we first started going out, he's like, no, no, no, no,

8:24 no, no, you have to watch this. So we had the DVD box set.

8:29 Yeah. And I fucking love it.

8:32 Oh, it's so good. It is so good.

8:35 Every. Character in I, I is just Yeah.

8:38 Perfection. Absolute perfection.

8:41 Do you watch? Speaking of which, do you watch

8:42 Curb Your Enthusiasm? I haven't been watching it.

8:44 Oh. My God.

8:46 So if you're a Seinfeld fan and you haven't watched Curb Your

8:49 Enthusiasm, you really have to. It's so funny.

8:52 So Larry David, who's the Co creator of Seinfeld, he is in

8:57 and Co created and produces the ACT produces Curb Your

9:01 Enthusiasm. It's so.

9:03 It is funny. Oh my God, yeah.

9:05 The things he gets himself into. Oh, I just love it.

9:08 It's very, very good. Very good.

9:12 We've got some shout outs for today.

9:13 We do. We have many SO.

9:15 Many. So we had two a few coffees

9:18 bought for us by Jill St. And Sue Brennan and then Jill

9:22 also joined our Patreon this week.

9:25 Wow, so. Thank you, Jill.

9:27 We also had Mia 791. Karen Banchich.

9:32 I hope that's how I say your name properly.

9:34 Melanie O'Connor and Bree Cowley, all new patrons, so

9:37 welcome. Thank you to everyone of you.

9:40 We every time I get a notification that we've got a

9:43 new Patreon, I still go, Oh my God.

9:47 It's just so lovely that people are supporting us in that way,

9:50 and it is truly appreciated, as is, you know, commenting on our

9:54 things, liking all of that sort of stuff.

9:57 Every little bit helps and we really appreciate it.

9:59 I did see a message that came through.

10:01 I actually didn't write down who it was from, but somebody was

10:04 like, oh, I told my friend about about your podcast.

10:07 And I'm like, yes, please. More of that.

10:08 That would be great. Yeah.

10:10 The more people we can get this out to, the better.

10:12 That's it. Absolutely.

10:13 You know, it's absolutely going great.

10:14 Can't wait for. I think by this point we've had

10:16 two episodes out for the year with this episode, so we'll

10:19 probably be, you know, kicking off again for the year.

10:21 But I'm sure like we'll get some new listeners now as we're

10:24 getting back into it as well. So welcome to anyone who's new

10:27 to Patreon or just listening to the regular feed.

10:30 You're all very welcome here and we're so happy to be here.

10:33 We love it. We we absolutely love doing it.

10:36 So thank you for joining us. It certainly means that at least

10:39 we're not producing a podcast just for our families to listen

10:41 to. Like our TikTok at the.

10:43 Moment yeah, it's so fucking sad and join me so sad.

10:49 It's because it was like so big. I think that was why I'm like

10:53 struggling now. It's like, I feel like I was

10:54 like, it's those echoes every time I it's.

10:57 Actually, it's like cricket. Yeah, every time, Yeah.

10:59 Yeah. But you're doing amazing.

11:02 So you're doing amazing talk. 2 dot crime dot besties.

11:07 Yes, that's it. That's it.

11:09 You'll find us over there where we're still just plugging away

11:11 the same stuff that we've, you know, like not the same stuff as

11:14 in the new stuff that's coming out, but the same sort of style

11:16 of things that we're sending out with some new bits and pieces

11:19 this year I'm getting a bit more of a handle on.

11:21 The source I actually saw your thing where you were like where

11:24 you put out that the video of us, how many words we say that

11:28 are repeated like and absolutely, absolutely, yeah,

11:30 absolutely so bad and yeah, so. Adding to.

11:43 It loved it, loved it. Very, very well done.

11:46 Oh well, yeah. So we'll, yeah, keep going with

11:49 TikTok and if we unless it completely dies in the house and

11:51 then we'll just focus on Instagram, you know, in case

11:54 that's where it's really at. Let's be honest.

11:57 All right, let's get into today's case because I'm, you

11:59 know, we're already, we've been baffling on too.

12:01 Long I've got a few of those kind of few of those.

12:03 I love those. Someone jumped in the comments

12:05 on Spotify and like backed us and Go, and so they're like how?

12:08 Rude. Don't you be so rude.

12:09 Just fall through it, Yeah. Thank you for your support.

12:13 I don't love that. Yes, I know we sometimes we see

12:15 those comments and kind of go, you know, and just let it go,

12:17 whatever, who cares? And then some days I'm feeling a

12:19 little spicy and I might write back.

12:21 I love, I love it. I, I sent you a message when I

12:23 saw that you'd responded to that comment and I was like, that was

12:26 the perfect response. It's.

12:28 Probably really nice, but in my head it wasn't.

12:30 It, it's, it came off really nice.

12:33 Yeah, yeah. Anyway, yeah.

12:34 Fuck off, basically, fuck off. Fuck off.

12:37 If you don't like us, that's fine.

12:38 You don't have to comment. Just don't listen anymore.

12:42 All right, Sherry Papini. Yeah, this is a massive 1 huge.

12:46 I'm sure most people who are listening to this, based on the

12:49 title of our of the podcast anyway, may have a bit of an

12:52 idea of of Sherry, but. My shield, like me, was living

12:54 under a rock. I don't know how I missed.

12:56 This one, this this blows my mind that you didn't really know

12:58 anything about it. It's.

12:59 Gotta be like it. I don't know.

13:00 Well, it's pre COVID. I don't know.

13:01 Maybe it was, oh, you know what it was.

13:03 I reckon it might have been just like pre.

13:04 I was like in the depths of like horror child probably when this

13:08 was all blowing. Up.

13:09 Yeah, yeah. I'd yeah, yeah, I think.

13:11 That's probably what it was. You had no capacity for

13:14 literally anything else. No, that's.

13:15 Probably what that was. All right, so Sherry Louise Graf

13:20 was born on the 11th of June in 1982 in Mount Shasta, CA.

13:25 Her parents are named Loretta and Richard Graf.

13:29 They are interesting in and of themselves, but we will

13:31 absolutely get into that. Yeah, Sherry was the younger of

13:34 two children to them. Her older sister's name is

13:38 Sheila, and she has a little bit to do with this story as well.

13:42 But I'm sure, I'm sure we'll talk to her, to her involvement

13:46 and her opinions in all of this a little bit later, too.

13:48 Yeah, but Sherry's childhood, it's really hard to say because

13:54 I think we need to preface this entire podcast by saying nobody

14:01 fucking knows the truth because there is so much out there and

14:05 Sherry lies all the time. I'm sure her parents lie.

14:08 I'm sure her ex-husband has lied.

14:11 There is. I think there is not one person

14:14 in this podcast who I'm like, oh, sorry.

14:16 In the research that I've done for this where I'm like, IA 100%

14:20 believe you, except for that FBI agent.

14:22 Oh, Yep, she's gold. I love her.

14:24 Yes, I absolutely love her. We will get to her.

14:27 We'll get to her. But yes, I completely agree.

14:29 Yeah, so according to Sherry, she had a lot of trauma in her

14:34 childhood. First of all, she said she came

14:37 from a home that had a lot of drug abuse and alcohol abuse.

14:40 Yeah. And all of the myriad of issues

14:43 that come along with that. Yeah, and friends of hers

14:46 corroborated that story in terms of like, that was what the

14:49 narrative was at the time as well as not just as an adult.

14:52 She was reflecting black back on that going, Oh yeah, this is

14:55 actual when holding on in my household because I mean, that's

14:57 so thinking go on without people knowing behind closed doors.

15:01 So this wasn't even a it wasn't something that was, you know,

15:03 like later on reflected on and spoken about friends from back

15:06 in her childhood said that that's what was spoken about or

15:09 what was inferred. Do we know back then?

15:11 We still don't know definitively if it was true though.

15:13 And also, do we know like there were no witnesses to it?

15:16 So it's more even back then. No, I don't know that they're

15:20 able to even corroborate that. Because her parents may.

15:24 There's just this idea of like, friends saying like, yeah, she'd

15:26 come to our house and felt loved there because we we basically

15:30 knew that she wasn't. She wasn't.

15:31 Getting that at. Home, home, home, which they

15:33 that was their perspective of what the situation was, but they

15:35 didn't know what that was that was going on in the house.

15:37 Exactly what I guess what I'm trying to get at these were

15:40 converse. These was this was topics that

15:41 were being were around her from childhood, but what the facts of

15:46 what was going on. Who knows?

15:49 Yeah. I think also, we should probably

15:51 say right now, just before I get into my next sort of little bit,

15:54 is that there are two documentaries that really have

15:57 very opposing or somewhat appraising, somewhat appraising

16:01 somewhat, Yeah. About this case.

16:03 Yeah. And the first one is called

16:05 Perfect Wife and it's more from the perspective of Sherry's than

16:09 husband. Yeah.

16:10 And then the second one with that came out in 2024.

16:13 The second one came out in 2025 and that is what's that one

16:17 called. It's.

16:19 Caught in a lie? Caught in a lie?

16:21 That's. Called well done and that's got

16:25 Sherry in it and it's a lot of things are from her perspective,

16:28 although there's a lot of challenge to what she has to say

16:31 to you. So it's not one sided by any

16:33 stretch of the. Imagination.

16:34 I think there was like people went into it with an idea of

16:39 what perspective they want to come at it with, but information

16:43 kept coming out that maybe didn't align with how they

16:46 thought it would. Yeah, that's, that's very, very

16:48 fair. In the Perfect Wife documentary,

16:53 she says so it is reported by a friend of hers that she ran

16:58 away. So Richard, her dad, sorry,

17:00 reported that she ran away from home at about the age of 16 and

17:04 she was like couch hopping and, you know, that was.

17:06 That was the lifestyle she LED from there.

17:08 That's. Exactly.

17:09 Right now, Sherry says that that's because she was sexually

17:13 assaulted as A and she she clearly states in the court in

17:17 the Lie documentary that it's not her mom or dad who sexually

17:20 assaulted her. That someone that knew the

17:21 family. Somebody in the family.

17:23 Very unfortunately the way it goes.

17:25 Common. Yeah.

17:27 And that caused her to sort of be really unsettled.

17:32 She was already from what she claims to be a fairly unsettled

17:34 home anyway because of the drug and alcohol abuse that was going

17:38 on in the home. And so from quite a young age,

17:40 like 16, that is a formative time in a especially in a young

17:44 girl's life. It is for anyone, girl or boy.

17:48 But she was. She didn't have or wasn't

17:52 creating for herself a stable home life.

17:54 Like as in, she wasn't at home to be getting what she needed

17:59 from her parents. Whether they were capable of

18:01 giving her that or not, we don't know.

18:02 Because she was relying on like, meeting men to have somewhere to

18:06 stay or having partners, you know, that she would then go and

18:09 live with or, you know, or friends that she would make.

18:12 And I get the vibe. And to mean to survive living

18:17 like that and being on your own from 16, you would need to be

18:20 quite savvy and then therefore potentially manipulative.

18:25 Yeah, to find a way to stay at someone's house to not do.

18:27 You. Does this get you though

18:29 already? Because.

18:30 Yeah, so already you say that. And I sort of like, oh, I kind

18:33 of cringe at that because I'm like, she did have a home where

18:38 she was. OK.

18:39 Let's just say we'll believe the story that her parents were drug

18:43 and alcohol abusers. Yeah.

18:44 They never abused the girls in that they were never physically

18:48 harmful towards them. Okay, it may have created an

18:52 unstable home in some ways, maybe there was a lack of

18:56 nurturing or whatever, but the way she portrays it is that she

18:59 had no choice but to get out. Now we don't.

19:02 It's so this is. Fuck it.

19:04 It's so hard. Yeah.

19:05 Because I think if you're in that kind of a volatile, if you

19:08 think that's a volatile situation, yes, you would need

19:10 to get out. But then the way her parents

19:12 explained the situation is that everything was kind of OK and

19:16 she would have been fine staying there.

19:18 I don't know of. Course they would have said

19:20 that. Yeah, yeah.

19:22 I don't know, it's something like I couldn't, you can't like

19:24 make a call on. It's so hard, and I feel like

19:26 that in so many things with this case, it's so hard to make a

19:29 call. Yeah.

19:31 So the other thing that we know is that in 2017, because there

19:36 was so much reporting into what happened and, you know, lies and

19:42 all this sort of stuff started coming out.

19:45 Newspapers were going deep on this, and they were looking into

19:47 her background. And what I found is that 13

19:50 years before her disappearance, her family had made multiple 911

19:54 calls regarding her behaviour. So her dad accused Sherri.

20:00 Of vandalizing their home, he said he she did something to the

20:03 letterbox or something and she was like ruining things at their

20:09 house. And she also then in 2003

20:13 apparently made a withdrawal from his bank account without

20:17 him knowing or without him authorizing it.

20:18 Yeah right. And so he wanted to press

20:21 charges for that. So it's it's.

20:26 There's a yeah, a lot, no history prior to that's getting

20:29 to where. We incredibly problematic story.

20:31 That's right. Incredibly problematic behavior.

20:34 In 2006, she met and married a military, a guy who was in the

20:40 military. Yeah, so she married him for

20:42 convenience. She told him that she had a

20:45 heart murmur due to too many egg like egg donations.

20:50 OK. And I don't think that's ever

20:53 been corroborated that she actually ever donated her eggs.

20:58 Oh God. I tried.

21:00 I tried to find it. The only thing I could find when

21:02 I was looking into this because this was one of my.

21:04 This is one of my rabbit. Holes.

21:06 So many rabbit holes. This is one of the ones that I

21:08 was like, surely they could if if you were donating your eggs,

21:12 yeah, the clinic that you donated them to would be able to

21:16 give evidence to show that you had donated your eggs.

21:19 That is a complex procedure. You'd think.

21:24 No one's been able. To cooperate.

21:25 And then I don't think that that happened then.

21:27 And then I also couldn't find if you donate your eggs, was it

21:31 what was the issue with your heart then I don't know.

21:35 Again, couldn't find like even the trigger hormones, none of

21:38 that being related to a heart murmur.

21:41 No, I mean, I've had OK, I have a heart condition.

21:45 I've done IVF, heart condition was never really linked between

21:48 the. Mentioned and I couldn't find

21:51 cuz I was like maybe I just don't know.

21:52 I just don't know about this. I couldn't find any information

21:55 to. Show the medications that I was

21:58 taking would would interact poorly with my heart.

22:00 No, there was that. That does not ring a bell.

22:03 Do. You not think that's so fucking

22:04 weird? Yeah.

22:05 So she's married this bloke, right?

22:07 Yeah, he was on deployment. And so for the majority of their

22:12 marriage, I think they spent two nights together in the house

22:15 that he owned in wherever they were at the time.

22:18 I think it was in, it's like still in California.

22:21 And then he was on deployment. She went and visited him once

22:27 when he was in Japan on deployment and that was it.

22:31 Like it? Was a little bit of an

22:32 arrangement, wasn't it? The marriage, it was not like

22:35 it. Was for her to get some kind of

22:38 treatment, medication I don't know for.

22:39 Her heart. It wasn't, yeah, it wasn't

22:41 really that we're in love, we're getting married.

22:43 That was not the whole premise. Of it, in fact, he said

22:46 something along the the lines of when they broke up.

22:49 It was very mutual, yeah. They were both and they stayed

22:52 friends for a while and stayed in touch.

22:54 Break it off. It was just like it was mutually

22:57 agreeable to be married for some reasons like it.

23:01 It meant that he had someone to kind of come home to if he when

23:03 he wasn't in on deployment. And it meant that she got

23:07 certain health benefits. Yeah, supposedly.

23:10 Yeah, it wasn't. Yeah.

23:11 It wasn't like we're in love. No, it wasn't that old.

23:14 And they, they both actually say that.

23:15 Yeah. While he was on his final

23:17 deployment, while they were married, she met Keith.

23:20 Yes. So Keith would then become go on

23:23 to become her second husband. Yeah.

23:25 Now, so this was at the time where she was like, we need to

23:28 divorce. And he, the first husband was

23:30 like, Yep, no worries, that's fine.

23:32 Yeah. And immediately Keith and Sherry

23:35 were in inseparable. Yeah, was it was deep or real

23:39 quick? Very, very quick.

23:41 Yeah, very, very quick. They got married and they went

23:46 on to have two children. So they had an older boy and a

23:50 younger girl. And these children, you know,

23:54 you look at photos of them as a family and you think, oh, a

23:58 perfect family, perfect family. Like Keith and Sherry, they're

24:02 quite attractive people, like fit, young, healthy.

24:06 They look, you know, they kind of glow in all their photos and.

24:10 Tagline attached to Sherry around the town was that she was

24:12 super mom. She was in everything, planned

24:15 everything. You know, she was there for her

24:17 kids, like. Did everything.

24:20 Yeah. When Violet was young, Sherry

24:22 was let go from her job at AT&T and was given a fairly

24:25 substantial payout. It was enough money that she was

24:28 able to get her boobs done. That's right.

24:30 And that she was able to actually take a fairly extended

24:34 time off from paid work in order to be with her kids, although.

24:38 Yeah, yeah, they were still in child care.

24:42 So from all of the reports I've seen and look, forensic

24:46 accountants have been through these people's financials to the

24:51 NTH degree, so I believe this to be true.

24:54 But the money that she got from her payout, Yep.

24:56 Breast surgery, breast augmentation and childcare fees.

25:02 So while she wasn't working, the kids were still in daycare every

25:06 day. Well.

25:08 It's hard to, again, hard to know with stories and things,

25:10 but you know, but has sort of said, you know, he was he was on

25:13 a case a little bit about like, come on, like maybe you should

25:15 go back to work because he was a bit miffed at the thought that

25:21 they're spending that money on childcare when really she's

25:24 staying home. Like, shouldn't she be looking

25:26 after the children, you know, and if that's, if you're going

25:28 to put them in daycare, then like maybe go and get another

25:31 job and then then we can do other things financially as well

25:34 as with that money. Like, yeah.

25:36 So he was, he vocally has said he was, he wasn't.

25:40 It wasn't an arrangement they were mutually happy about for

25:43 how she was was managing her time, I guess.

25:46 Yeah. Yeah.

25:48 But I think, I think that's a very fair statement.

25:51 I mean, in that in that Perfect Wife documentary, he basically

25:54 says that, doesn't he? He wasn't.

25:57 And I get, I actually fully get that.

25:59 I do, I do too. I'm I kind of, I don't really,

26:02 I'll be fully honest, I really don't understand putting your

26:04 kids in care. I mean, I understand if you're

26:06 going to the gym and you want to put them in the crash while

26:07 you're at the gym or you know that sort of stuff.

26:09 But like going and putting them in daycare from early hours in

26:11 the morning till evening. She used to pick when.

26:13 You're like 4:45 PM or something.

26:15 Yeah. And that was.

26:16 Not working and you don't do other stuff.

26:19 What are you doing all day? Well, you know, other than like,

26:21 you know, yeah, maybe going for exercise or things.

26:23 What, how many things are there that you need to do that you can

26:26 you cannot do with your children, with you?

26:27 What do you mean? For two days yeah grocery

26:29 shopping and all your chores on one day and have a day to

26:32 yourself I'm. Not against people having time

26:34 to themselves. I'm not saying that.

26:35 I mean, like, if that's as a family, like you need income,

26:39 Yeah. So if you're gonna put them in

26:41 care every day and not actually, but this is the thing, it was

26:44 all about show because there was this whole persona that she was

26:48 the world's greatest mom and that she was active with the

26:50 kids all the time and always doing these fun and craft things

26:54 with their kids. But in reality, she'd do that

26:57 for a short portion of the day and make sure that it was caught

27:00 on camera or seen by other. People this is the thing that

27:03 gets me it gives me like 8 passengers vibe yes right

27:07 because she would post a lot on social media and it would be

27:12 like these beautiful not even beautiful it was oftentimes the

27:15 stuff that she posted on social media was like candid photos of

27:19 the kids yet doing crafts and when she's like taking a selfie

27:22 and. They're sitting and they're

27:23 playing games at home and she's, you know.

27:26 Yeah, yeah. I find, and I'm going to use

27:29 this word a lot, I think in this podcast she is very

27:34 performative. Yeah, she I can't wait to.

27:38 Talk about you. I know.

27:40 Honestly. But let's just let's just get

27:42 through it through the back. Actual background.

27:44 Stuff. So the other thing that is

27:46 definitely worth noting before we get into our discussions is

27:49 the fact that Sherry and well Keith had made or asked Sherry

27:54 and made Sherry sign a post nuptial agreement.

27:57 But the reason for that being it was post nup, as you just said,

28:00 like snup, not previously to getting to getting married as

28:03 the early days of their marriage.

28:06 You know, within the first couple of years or something.

28:08 It was he discovered that she was messaging and communicating

28:12 with men or a man. No, it was men.

28:16 It was multiple, wasn't I don't sort of said that when or maybe.

28:18 No, there was 1 main particular one, but it was multiple.

28:22 There were multiples. So he got, you know, I don't

28:25 blame him, annoyed with that. That's not OK if this is how

28:28 this is going to go. So to protect himself as well in

28:32 this situation, he decided that they should do a postnuptial

28:35 agreement and make it so that if their marriage broke down due to

28:41 her stepping out of the marriage, if that was what she

28:44 promised him, that she'd stop doing, that it wouldn't happen

28:46 again. Well if that's the case, then

28:48 you're really going to stick to that.

28:49 Then there won't be an issue because that if our marriage

28:52 breaks down due to you stepping out of the marriage, like we

28:55 have to be proven that there was adultery involved that then she

28:59 would not get anything. And I think even this was pre

29:02 kids, but they wrote into it even custody of children I

29:04 believe. I believe that's correct.

29:06 It did go pretty far. Yep, but it meant she got

29:09 literally nothing, not even like half the house.

29:11 She signed away every otherwise every right that she would have.

29:16 Yeah. Right now I don't know if it's

29:18 in Australia, in America is, is here the same in terms of like

29:21 for, for a prenuptial agreement, we don't call them that here,

29:25 binding financial agreements, we call them here in Australia.

29:27 But for those sorts of things, you need separate legal advice,

29:30 and I don't know if that's the case in the United States.

29:32 As to whether or not that's how that works, I don't know.

29:34 But surely she got her own legal advice in that moment to have

29:39 that paperwork. I honestly.

29:40 Don't believe she did. See, that's the thing that gets

29:42 me then is like they, they're far more binding in America than

29:46 they are here. There's always ways around them.

29:48 I feel like in Australia, but ours, you have to have, you

29:51 know, separate council, whereas if that's not the case in the

29:54 States then that's really weird because to me then you can just

29:56 claim that you haven't. Got enough?

29:58 What kind of law would say to their client?

30:00 Yep, sign that? Like that's what makes me think

30:02 she didn't have any. But I also can believe that she

30:05 would be someone who'd be like, of course, you know, and lying,

30:08 saying I would never cheat on you.

30:10 Like, you know, of course I'll sign that.

30:11 That's what I'm saying. And in her own mind, convincing

30:13 herself. Yeah.

30:15 There's nothing this isn't going to affect me. 100%.

30:18 Because she's can, she manipulates herself the same

30:20 amount as she manipulates. Other people, it's so.

30:22 Far. But anyway, so to that end, it's

30:25 just worth noting. That that's in place.

30:27 That's in place. Yeah, for sure.

30:30 All right, Are we now at the date?

30:33 I think so. OK, so November the 2nd, 2016.

30:36 Yeah. Sherry is out.

30:40 She drops the kids off at daycare as usual.

30:42 Keith goes off to work at his job and often Keith would

30:46 actually come home for lunch. And apparently so, according to

30:51 Keith. And I believe these text

30:52 messages are corroborated. Yeah.

30:53 I mean, this isn't really a point of contention, but he,

30:57 she, Sherry messaged him to say, are you coming home for lunch?

31:01 And he was a bit lunchtime, a bit of a lunchtime fancy and.

31:08 Apparently, that's what she says.

31:10 Seriously. I haven't.

31:11 Where did you say that? Oh.

31:12 Yeah, no, she said that in a police interview.

31:14 Ohh, she wanted to be a rompy Pompey at lunch.

31:16 Yeah, it's, we'll get to the police interview and we'll talk

31:19 about it then. All the way.

31:20 I've got, I've got so ohh. You've gotta tell me, Tell me

31:23 now. I wanna know.

31:24 Ohh 'cause people say after all this she gets interviewed by

31:27 with the police. It's like one of the first

31:29 interviews she does and the way she's like, all giddy and like

31:32 being silly and flirty with the police officer, basically like

31:36 saying like, you know, you know, it seems silly now, but I was,

31:39 you know, messaging my husband, asking him to come home to have

31:41 sex with me at lunchtime. And I you know.

31:43 Like have not heard that. Yeah, yeah.

31:45 And it's it's really gross. I watched it kind of going.

31:48 What are you doing like? Yeah, what the fuck are you

31:50 doing? You're trying to.

31:51 Tell everyone you've just been. You're traumatized, but now

31:53 you're like flirtatiously kind of giggly schoolgirl over asking

31:57 your husband to come home to bang you at lunchtime.

32:00 Like, well, you're a grown adult.

32:02 Like you're allowed to do that. Yeah.

32:04 And if that's what happened on that day, then say that.

32:06 Salacious. No, there's nothing salacious

32:08 about that. That's great.

32:09 Good. Good for you.

32:10 Like. And but it's it's really, really

32:12 off putting the way she does it in the midst of her, like trying

32:14 to force tears. I haven't seen that.

32:16 Yeah. Far up.

32:17 It's in the face. It's the perfect wife

32:19 documentary, but. I don't watch that.

32:21 I just don't. Yeah, it's really weird, but

32:23 basically, Keith was busy at work or something, didn't see a

32:27 message. He then finishes his day at work

32:32 and he gets home. Now when he gets home, Sherry's

32:36 car's in the driveway. Her wallet and other personal

32:40 items are at home. Her handbag, Phone.

32:43 Yeah, her phone's hard. Yep.

32:46 Aside from her phone, that's correct.

32:47 And he thinks to himself, oh, maybe because normally she

32:51 would, as I said, normally she would pick the kids up at about

32:54 4:45 so that they're home in time for when Keith gets home

32:57 from work. Yeah.

32:58 And she's like, oh, mate, he thought maybe she's run an

33:00 errand or something, but weird, the car's not there.

33:03 I wonder what time she picked up the kids from daycare.

33:07 So she he rings the daycare and the daycare are like, oh, what

33:10 do you mean? She hasn't actually picked them

33:12 up yet. They're still here.

33:14 And so he's like, oh, fuck. So he goes on to the find my

33:19 phone to find my phone and iPhone.

33:21 And he can see that Sherry's phone is at the basically at the

33:25 corner of the road that they live on and the Oregon Trail

33:29 like a running track, basically. Yeah.

33:32 So he he's like, oh, fuck, I'm going to go down there.

33:35 He goes down there, sees her phone about, I think it was

33:39 about 10 meters or so off the track.

33:42 Now, this is interesting in and of itself.

33:45 Yeah, she's got an iPhone. She's got the cables with the

33:48 earbuds. They're kind of like wrapped

33:51 around the phone. The.

33:52 Earbuds like curled. Up on the phone.

33:54 The phone. 'S kind of feeling neatly very.

33:56 Neat. It looked to me.

33:57 It looks really neat. You can Google Photos.

33:59 You can Google. Photos got me as well that like.

34:02 So Keith, as soon as he saw them sitting there, he took a photo

34:05 of them. I would have too.

34:06 Yeah, I could. I would have too.

34:08 I would have heard it. I was like, wouldn't you just go

34:11 and pick it up? Like no.

34:12 No, I would have done that too because I really like she's

34:15 missing. I need to show the police that

34:17 this is exactly how I found them.

34:19 The other interesting thing was there was also like her blonde

34:22 hair. You could see very a chunk of

34:25 it, almost like if like imagine clearly wound up in this as

34:28 well. Yeah.

34:29 So there's a fair, fair bit of hair like I'm not talking like a

34:32 you. Know oh you can see in this

34:33 photo guys have a go and. Google it's obvious there's

34:35 hair. Socials.

34:36 Yeah, there's obviously there's hair there and it's long blonde

34:39 hair. Yeah, Sherry was blonde.

34:41 Yeah. OK, so he then freaks out.

34:44 Calls the cops. Call one. 1911 and he says to

34:47 the police, who? Or he says to the 911 operator,

34:52 well, something along the lines of I don't know what's going on,

34:56 my wife is missing. She's, you know, anything?

35:00 Some she's like cuz yeah, she was out for a jog.

35:01 Cuz that. But she wish she would do and.

35:03 He's like, she's gotten back into running recently.

35:06 Yeah. And I mean, that's where she

35:08 used to run. Yeah.

35:09 Along that trail. Completely fair.

35:11 Yeah. And he's like, I've called the

35:12 kids daycare. She hasn't picked them up.

35:14 And he sounds quite panicked in that phone call.

35:18 Yeah, I think it's, I think it's a very, I mean, as I've said

35:21 many occasions, like you know those 91 calls and stuff, it's

35:24 hard. You don't want judge people by

35:25 them. But I think it's a pretty stock

35:26 standard of like a husband sort of doing the whole like, I don't

35:29 know how concerned I need to be, but I think I'm concerned like.

35:33 That's the vibe. Yeah.

35:34 And it's kind of him being a bit.

35:35 He's kind of almost detail a little bit too much like kind of

35:39 stuff at the same time because he's, I think he's kind of like

35:41 almost trying to talk himself out of needing to call.

35:43 It's like he wants them to go, oh, you didn't need to call us

35:47 like, and he's a bit sheepish about it.

35:48 Or something. Yeah, yeah, that's how I took

35:50 it. Yeah, but basically what he does

35:53 then is so the police are like, OK, we need to respond to this.

35:57 Yeah, he did pick up her phone. He then called his mum to go and

36:00 pick up the kids from daycare. So that kind of that's all taken

36:03 care of. The kids are taken care of and

36:07 he then starts like, I'm assuming he's had a bit of a

36:10 look around, can't find any trace of her.

36:13 He's then interviewed by the police because I mean, we all

36:17 know that generally speaking, you know, the police start with

36:22 the people closest to you and work their way out.

36:24 And of course, like even some some, when I've heard that 911

36:28 call, a few things, he says. In that I'm like, oh, if you

36:32 were guilty, it wouldn't surprise me.

36:34 Yeah, yeah, yeah, You know what I mean.

36:35 I'll admit that too. Yeah, yeah.

36:36 Yeah. So I I.

36:38 Because I think he even says in it, I took a photo of, of her

36:40 phone that I found out. And that was the fact that it

36:42 was in that 9 to 1911 call that he said that that I think that

36:45 was why I kind of went, it's an odd thing to say like on the

36:48 911. Call.

36:48 Yeah. But then I think you're right in

36:50 that he was just trying to give all the details so that they

36:54 knew it all because he was so concerned.

36:56 He was like. What?

36:57 What? This is all weird.

36:59 This is all weird really. Fucking weird, yes, But

37:02 basically what we know is that Sherry didn't come home that

37:08 day. No, she didn't come home for 22

37:11 days. They did it immediately.

37:12 The police saw this scene and that the fact they still

37:14 couldn't find her, they still have all they would need.

37:16 They normally do it very clearly was she has she's missing like

37:21 it's there is something wrong here.

37:23 It was very much treated that way, that there was someone at

37:26 risk here. Yeah.

37:28 What that was, they weren't certain of, but they were

37:30 clearly marking this as at risk, you know, that somebody has gone

37:33 missing. I think they acted very.

37:36 Quickly, Yeah, they did. Because everything kind of added

37:40 up to the fact that potentially foul play was involved here.

37:44 Because as we said, her car was there, she would normally, she

37:47 was super mom. She would always pick her kids

37:49 up from daycare and cook dinner and all of those things, you

37:54 know, and neighbors, friends, everyone who was in who was

38:00 notified about this, no one could believe that she would

38:02 leave her children. Yeah, that was the thing that

38:04 got everyone a little bit was the fact that, yeah, she

38:07 wouldn't just ditch her kids kind of stuff.

38:08 So that was weird to the outside community.

38:13 Yeah. Yeah.

38:15 So she's, she's missing at this point, no one knows where she

38:18 is. That the searches can, like,

38:20 start real fast, which, I mean, to their credit, they were, you

38:23 know, onto it. But not only that, Keith, very

38:26 early on, he apparently he said in an interview with the police,

38:29 he was like, I've been told by friends, I should be demanding

38:32 the FBI be here now. He and like in the way he says

38:36 it, I kind of do the whole like I, I, I don't know, it checked

38:39 out for me that he's being a bit like, I'm parliamentary, really

38:42 forceful. I fully agree, because you can

38:45 actually see that footage in that documentary.

38:47 And he's like, oh, I've been told that I need to say to you

38:50 that I need to demand. I need to be involved in this.

38:53 Yeah. And I I fully, I'm on board with

38:56 him on that yeah. Because people would have been

38:59 saying that to him, yes, Because who knows where she.

39:01 Is and then he doesn't want to go into these cops that won.

39:04 He's prime suspect. And he knows that like at this

39:06 point like that, they've got to rule him out.

39:07 He knows, you know, whether he's guilty or not.

39:09 But I think he knew like he was being looked at, of course.

39:11 So you don't want to look like you're doing something that's

39:14 going to make them look at you more.

39:15 But he also was like, I want to do the right thing here and

39:18 speak up. Yeah, but I'm also going to keep

39:20 these people on side and not piss them off because these are

39:22 people who are going to help me find her.

39:24 So it's, you know, trying to work out how you go around

39:27 demanding something off of people that are there to help

39:30 you. You know, I think I've got that

39:31 kind of like nervous vibe from him of.

39:34 You want for. Some very valid reason.

39:36 Can you imagine as a, as a spouse to be in that situation

39:41 and being like, fuck, we need the fucking FBI to look for my

39:45 spouse? Like I, I can't, I can't even

39:48 imagine what it'd be like to be in his shoes in that.

39:50 Time exactly. Yeah, Yeah.

39:52 So you know. I looked at, you know, through a

39:55 magnifying glass. But you've also want to do

39:59 everything you need to do. Yeah.

40:01 Which is I think is really hard because you, yeah, you know,

40:04 you've been looked at differently.

40:05 For sure. Yeah, for sure.

40:07 So basically, so Keith, this is another thing.

40:13 OK. So Keith also in the days that

40:16 follow, there is an absolute groundswell of support for

40:20 finding Sherry. Yeah, now I think we probably

40:24 need to introduce here the fact that she is a slim, blonde,

40:29 beautiful white woman and she's incredibly photogenic and I

40:38 think that means something in. This, well, let's say this is

40:41 how much it means in this someone else went missing in the

40:45 same similar area at this time. And I couldn't find anything

40:49 else much about that, that story because this took over.

40:53 Yeah, yeah. It's it's mind blowing, but look

40:58 to for whatever that all is, there was so much out there.

41:04 Within within hours, it was on local TV, within not many more

41:11 hours it was on national TV. And the following day was

41:13 international news. People.

41:15 Everybody knew the name Cher aside from me.

41:20 Knew the name Sherry Papini, Right?

41:22 Yeah. And I remember, I remember

41:24 seeing it on the news as well and thinking, oh, how does a mum

41:26 just go missing? Like it just doesn't make sense.

41:29 I mean, I know this shit happens all day every day.

41:31 Like it's not unusual, but the fact that it's in your face.

41:34 Yeah. OK.

41:35 So that's going on now, 22 days later on, on Thanksgiving Day,

41:41 which was the 20. 4th of November, 4:30 AM on things.

41:45 Thanksgiving Day really early. I was in the morning.

41:47 Yep. She was still wearing

41:49 restraints. She was dropped on the I-5 Yep,

41:54 in Yolo County, which was about 240 kilometers from where she

41:58 disappeared, and she's running around like a mad person trying

42:03 to flag down a car now several cars drove past her.

42:08 Now there was. This video footage of her two

42:09 through a church car park, you can see it, you can't make her

42:13 out. You can see the they've lined it

42:15 up with timings and things that it's her, but you can't make out

42:17 that it's. Specific, you're just running.

42:18 Through but she's running now. That's just that's important.

42:21 It is important that she's running at a fair pace across

42:24 this camera. Like I've crossed the car park,

42:26 sort of the top of the car park. You can see her.

42:28 It's it's relevant. And you can actually see that

42:30 she's restrained in that as well, because the way she's sort

42:33 of running, I don't reckon well. She's running very easily in

42:37 that. Yeah, Anyway, yeah.

42:39 Well, yeah, yeah, she. But basically this, this is

42:42 actually really funny. So a truck.

42:44 So a few people go past and and call 911 having passed her not

42:49 having stopped, which I totally understand, especially there was

42:52 a mum and her daughter who were driving along.

42:54 And I'm like, yeah, I wouldn't stop either if I was a woman on

42:56 my own. I totally get that.

42:57 But then this truck driver stops and he rings 911 and he's like,

43:01 I've found this woman and her name is Sherry Panini, Papini.

43:07 And she's like, it's Papini. I bet she gets sad all the time.

43:11 I mean, a Panini is a delicious and it's very good.

43:15 I don't mind a Panini. Every now and then he also says,

43:17 though, something about her boyfriend dropped her off.

43:22 And then she's like, no, no, no, I've been.

43:24 I was abducted. Abducted.

43:26 And then the 911 operator then is like, Oh yeah, can I talk to

43:30 her? Because she's, I reckon you can

43:32 sort of. The Colds.

43:33 Are turning there. Oh my God, this is Sherry

43:36 Papini. Yeah, gets on and then Sherry

43:39 gets on the phone and she's distraught and you know, she's

43:46 yeah, there's, you know, you know, she's basically like, Oh

43:50 my God, you know, I've just been dropped here and the 911

43:54 operator says do you know where you are?

43:55 She's like, no, I don't know where I am, I've got no idea

43:57 blah blah, blah, blah. So of course they dispatch

44:01 ambulance police to her location.

44:04 She is then taken to a local hospital, initially for an

44:08 initial assessment because she is bound.

44:13 There's least around. Her waist.

44:15 She's a broken nose, she's a burn on her forearm.

44:19 She's got bruising ligature marks on her wrists and ankles,

44:22 which probably from the binding is guess what that's inferring

44:26 the chain around her wrist, her waist, sorry, significant weight

44:30 loss. She's like emaciated.

44:32 She. Basically weighed, I think, I

44:34 think regularly she was something like 60 kilos.

44:37 She's only a little frame, a little.

44:40 She weighed something like 47 kilos, like there was nothing of

44:44 it. And you see photos of her back

44:46 especially, and you can see like her spine.

44:48 It's yeah, She she was amazing. She's.

44:51 Tiny and then tiny, there's most significant injury that she had

44:55 was this. She was branded on her right

44:57 shoulder, which she can make out is the word exodus and I think

45:02 61200. Yeah, yeah.

45:05 Which is really very unusual, sort of.

45:09 I mean, branding is something that if you watch Yellowstone

45:11 like I do, I. Love Yellowstone?

45:14 You know, that's like it's ownership, you know, that's

45:16 that's your. That's right, you brand a cow.

45:18 You brand cattle because they belong to you.

45:20 Yeah. And I mean, in this area, there

45:23 was known to be some sex trafficking issues.

45:27 There was some drug cartel issues not being, you know,

45:30 South southern, sort of California there there was some,

45:32 some sort of stuff like that going on.

45:34 So there was I guess some indication that maybe it was

45:37 something to do with that, you know, that someone was branding

45:40 her to be then sold in, in a, in a sex trafficking scenario.

45:45 Did you hear what her mum said about that?

45:48 Oh, the Mama mum, sorry. Oh my God.

45:50 Yeah. But I'm just gonna say this now

45:52 because it's relevant. Yeah, her mum was basically, her

45:55 mum basically said, oh, we knew she probably wasn't kidnapped,

45:58 she was probably sex trafficked because she was actually

46:00 scorching. Really beautiful she was.

46:02 Really. Beautiful.

46:03 I know. I really when that was said, I

46:05 was like. I cringe.

46:07 I. Literally, I had a kind of

46:09 reaction. To that, how did you Oh my God,

46:11 how? Did you think that was OK?

46:13 To say. Yeah, I don't know the.

46:17 Family. Oh my God, the family anyway.

46:21 Yeah, so very, very significant injuries she had like, I mean,

46:24 and the bruising was you could sort of say they were yellowing

46:27 and bluing and, you know, direct various stages.

46:30 So I mean, 22 days, it's three weeks, it's a lot of time and.

46:34 She also had her hair kind of hacked, yeah.

46:37 Hacked. So she had very, very long

46:40 blonde hair, and it was kind of hacked to, It wasn't cut neatly

46:43 above her shoulder. Yeah, yeah.

46:46 So basically when they they transfer originally transferred

46:50 her from that hospital that she first went to, to an A bigger

46:54 tertiary hospital to take care of her because they didn't

46:57 really know the full extent of her injuries.

47:00 And they wanted to do a rape kit as well to see whether they'd

47:02 been any sexual assault. So they did that and it came

47:06 back that there was no sexual assault, there were no

47:08 indicators at all of sexual assault.

47:11 There was no semen found, there was no trauma, nothing like

47:14 that. So the police like, right, we

47:17 need to interview her while things are still fresh.

47:19 It's still very early days. We understand that, but we

47:22 really need to get an initial statement at the very least.

47:24 Yes, she refuses to talk to the police.

47:27 And the police except for her. If only if if Keith was going to

47:31 be. There, no.

47:32 She refused even then. So the police said to Keith, if

47:36 you take a recorder in, can you talk to her about what happened

47:40 without us being there? And he agreed to that.

47:42 And Sherry knew that was going on.

47:46 And so Keith's taken this recording device, this is still

47:49 in the hospital and has gone and essentially interviewed her.

47:53 He, he asks some very directed questions, which I would want to

47:59 know those things too. So I completely understand where

48:01 he's coming from. Yeah, but she gives him a very

48:04 sort of stilted version of events.

48:09 And but one of the things that she says is that she was

48:14 abducted by two Hispanic women who kept their faces hidden by

48:18 masks. And basically they tortured her.

48:25 They withheld food from her. They kept her locked in a closet

48:29 if she didn't do what they wanted.

48:31 They branded her. And they told her that they were

48:35 going to sell her to a police officer and that nobody would

48:42 ever find out about it because this police officer was going to

48:45 cover it all up. Right.

48:47 Yeah. OK.

48:50 Yeah. Right.

48:51 So in amongst all of this, Keith is still very active in the

48:57 media. Yeah.

48:59 What do you? What's your take on that?

49:01 I mean, I OK in the scenario, media are your best friend when

49:07 they're missing and your worst enemy in these moments where you

49:09 want your privacy. And I, I think that from what I

49:14 can gather, Keith is someone who also, along with his wife, likes

49:18 to have people believe that everything.

49:21 Is a certain thing, Yep. Bright and sunshine and roses

49:24 and things. So I think he wanted to keep

49:27 everything neat and tidy, you know, like everything was.

49:31 Yeah. Said that needs to be said and

49:34 nothing was maybe misconstrued or I don't know.

49:37 I think he had an agenda in terms.

49:39 Of controlling the narrative. Yeah, I do.

49:41 I think he was trying to in some way protect her and but also

49:46 protect himself and their and their persona.

49:49 Yeah, yeah, I, I think there was a bit of that going on of like

49:53 how do I manage this situation now?

49:55 It's kind of like I've let the cat out of the bag of like, you

49:57 know, the the media are here, they're they're everywhere and I

50:00 need to appease that. I can't be rude to them.

50:02 Now. It's like, now that'll come off

50:05 a certain way, whereas probably entertaining, it also can come

50:09 off a way that he didn't think to.

50:10 Me, Yeah, To me, it's weird. Yeah.

50:13 I think if your wife's been through this incredible trauma,

50:16 yeah. And you're giving your time to.

50:18 And I'm not talking one or two different media organizations.

50:22 I'm talking multiple like 10s. Yeah, he, I mean the FBI, the

50:26 lady that we spoke about earlier, she directed him and

50:29 said you need to stop. Yeah.

50:30 Like and don't that's enough. That's enough because there was

50:32 everyone wanted a piece of him and wanted a piece of Sherry at

50:35 the time. And she they were like, you need

50:37 to stop this because we need to actually do an investigation

50:40 that you can't keep doing that because we need to sort of

50:43 tighten things up now that I mean, this is not what we

50:45 expected the outcome to be, no. So yeah, it's, I think it's a

50:50 really interesting position to be in.

50:52 Can I just? Ask you as well what your

50:53 thoughts are, whether there was any financial motivation.

50:57 Behind. Oh, look, I think that there was

50:58 certainly, you know, to an aspect of it of that he was,

51:02 yeah, looking at for himself and that in that sense.

51:06 For sure, because all of these media organizations paid him for

51:09 his time. Yeah.

51:11 That was definitely. Differently.

51:12 Yeah, Yeah. And I mean, you look, you know,

51:14 you're going to have bills to pay like everyone does.

51:18 I don't know. I can understand it.

51:20 But I can also go like, that's a bit gross as well.

51:23 I get both sides of that. I don't know.

51:26 Yeah, it's a difficult one. There is just something about.

51:30 Something about there is I do agree with.

51:33 You and that makes me and that makes me go.

51:35 What is your motivation? Why are you doing this?

51:39 I think I think it's more about. It's not our choice stick.

51:41 It's it is. It's about controlling the

51:43 narrative. Yeah.

51:44 And I think for him, control was the most important thing.

51:49 Yeah, I do agree. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

51:51 So 24th of November 2016 is when she was released by her captor.

51:57 Yeah, by the time 20/20/17 comes around, which is only a couple

52:02 of months later, investigators are starting to piece together.

52:08 They were already from the get go people while she was missing.

52:12 We're like kind of going this is SUS.

52:15 There were little bits here and there going well, a lot of

52:18 pointed Keith, a lot of you know, like, yeah, he seems SUS.

52:21 But also that the whole scenario, especially when she

52:24 turned up. I mean, there was a lot of bits

52:27 out there in the media and that of people kind of go in and and

52:30 in the circles of the investigative team kind of going

52:34 really add up. Yeah, that was it was there.

52:37 It was sprinklings. I think the FBI got involved

52:41 pretty much straight away, yeah, With case approval of hating of

52:46 that, Yeah. And he said there were so many

52:48 things immediately to them that seemed suspicious.

52:51 The first thing was the placement of the phone.

52:55 Yeah. And that just looked it looked

52:57 staged to. Them like who winds it up and

53:00 then puts it down? Even Keith said it looked weird

53:03 in one of his interviews. He, he fully admitted that.

53:06 Yeah, but they, the FBI also start to note inconsistencies in

53:14 her stories. And I'm not just talking about.

53:18 I mean, she changed her story so many times, but she would also

53:22 leave things out when she recounted her story.

53:24 Like in one in one interview with the police, a formal

53:28 interview with the police, she stated that they made her wear

53:32 these two Hispanic women, made her wear an adult diaper.

53:35 She never mentioned that again in any other interview.

53:39 There were a lot of things like that that that came to the fore.

53:43 The other thing that the FBI noted was the fact that it's

53:46 really rare for two women to kidnap a woman and for there to

53:52 be no man involved. Because according to Sherry,

53:55 what happened during those 22 days is that these two Hispanic

53:59 women, one was younger, one was older.

54:02 The younger one had, I believe she had curly hair, thin

54:07 eyebrows. The older one had thick eyebrows

54:10 and long, straight hair. They wore face masks, so she

54:12 wasn't able to give much detail about really the way that they

54:16 looked. She also said that they played

54:20 that Mexican Mexican music. Hello.

54:25 Fuck off. There's a whole issue with her

54:27 description of the. Paper.

54:29 Have you seen this stuff about when she was in?

54:32 Yeah, I think it was in high school.

54:33 In high school, so supposedly, well, OK, she claims she didn't

54:38 write this. She claims that someone was

54:41 bullying her and did it to get her in trouble.

54:44 Like, you know, make her look bad.

54:46 However, there's no way. I'm sorry.

54:48 No, no, I don't buy that for one for a second.

54:51 But according to her, someone else wrote this and posted it on

54:56 skinheads.com. And it's that room or something.

55:01 It's just, it's basically ramblings of like, absolute

55:04 pure, yeah, racist crap saying that basically Latinos were

55:11 targeting her and her dad, you know, particularly around when

55:14 she'd go to sports because she was really good at sports and

55:16 that these Latino couple of Latino girls would call her dad

55:20 Hitler and that call them Nazis and all these sorts of things.

55:24 And but it gets quite violent at times.

55:27 And when you read this document, there's quite a bit in there

55:30 that, weirdly enough, is what happened to her when she was

55:35 kidnapped. Kidnapped by two Hispanic women.

55:38 Yeah, it's. Disgusting to me.

55:40 But the thing that gets me then of like, because what she's

55:42 saying like keeps trying to tell you, oh, but I'm not racist.

55:45 I'm not racist, but. If you have to say I'm not

55:48 racist, if you have to defend yourself, what's prompted people

55:53 to say that? Yeah, seriously.

55:54 Without putting too much in it, but like there's there's so much

55:57 in her story of what she these are quotes from her from her

56:01 statements of things that she describes that her kidnappers

56:05 music was that really annoying Mexican music.

56:08 You know Mariachi I. Fucking love mariachi music now.

56:12 You know, I did live in Mexico as a child, but however.

56:15 Yeah, but it's the way she speaks.

56:17 It's the way she. Talks about it.

56:19 It does really give you that indication.

56:21 I think she says they fed her tortillas and rice some kind of

56:24 meat. Couldn't, and I couldn't discern

56:27 what, 1 black beans and overall crap, leftover crap that tasted

56:32 horrible. It's just, she's just like

56:35 really stomping on anything that's like Mexican.

56:38 Mexican themed themed. Yeah.

56:41 They ate off cheap paper plates. They spoke mostly Spanish, but

56:46 she heard something about gambling, which apparently they

56:49 were kind enough to speak in English about.

56:53 And I believe, again, she only ever mentioned that one.

56:56 Yeah, she won interview. She also made mention of their

56:59 knockoff shoes and their big hoop earrings.

57:02 I mean, how stereotypical and how you know what I mean?

57:05 It's just, it's really like, it's gross.

57:07 Real biased, real racist, to be honest.

57:09 Yeah, she said. She talked about their look as

57:11 well, in terms of their over tweezed eyebrows on one of them

57:15 and that their cast smelt really bad, like sewage.

57:18 Yeah. Like she really, I mean, of

57:20 course you're going to speak nicely if you're kidnappers.

57:21 I completely get that. But the way she really spoke

57:25 about them was just, I don't know, I feel like it was more

57:28 about the fact that these were his Hispanic people that she was

57:31 trying to. I agree with you.

57:32 So instead of speaking to your captor is a bad person, she

57:38 spoke to them base she spoke about them based on their race.

57:41 Yeah, yeah. And that's not okay.

57:44 No, which I mean that I think it all just adds up, especially

57:46 when you link this stuff in the in what she wrote.

57:49 It's quite a lengthy piece that she posted on that side that's

57:52 not allegedly but that also. Wasn't a one off?

57:54 No, it wasn't at all. There was many occasions of

57:56 things, but there's lots of stuff mentioned that about how

58:00 she had broken one of their noses.

58:02 That's, you know, what happened here.

58:04 There was links between what was spoken about in this document,

58:06 which I think was posted, as you say, when she was in high

58:08 school. That has been brought up then in

58:11 this 2016 incident that links that you go, well, if you didn't

58:16 write it somehow you've. Yeah, exactly.

58:20 It's. Really.

58:21 And yeah, it's specifically targeted at 2 Latinos in this

58:24 whole article that she wrote. Well, sorry, sorry.

58:27 Supposedly didn't write. Yeah, allegedly.

58:30 Allegedly. The other thing is that, sorry I

58:33 forgot to mention before, when she was in hospital they took

58:35 her clothes. So when she went missing, she

58:37 was actually wearing like jogging clothes.

58:40 She was wearing activewear when she was found on the side of the

58:45 road, she was wearing a grey sweat suit, but she was wearing

58:47 the same undies that she disappeared in.

58:51 She claims that her two Hispanic captors allowed her to wash her

58:56 underwear when they allowed it on the odd occasion that they

58:59 allowed her to have a shower and that's why she was wearing them

59:02 again and they gave her the clothes.

59:04 She didn't know what happened to the clothes that that she would

59:08 disappeared in. Now the FBI at the time took her

59:13 clothes. They put took them away for DNA

59:15 testing and they put the DNA that they found in Dakotas.

59:19 They found male DNA, which was interesting because she said she

59:23 only was. There.

59:24 No, according to her there was only ever 2 females.

59:27 They ruled out immediately that DNA did not link to Keith.

59:29 Yeah, 100%. That wasn't linked to Keith.

59:31 Yeah, that's right. And his, his story was very

59:36 strongly corroborated in terms of the fact that he was at work

59:38 that whole time, that he was certainly.

59:39 Seen in the media within those 22 days plenty of times.

59:42 That's right. Exactly.

59:44 So we we know that what Keith did, we know what Keith did.

59:48 Yeah, in that time. Yeah, we don't.

59:49 Yeah, that's not in contention. Nothing linking him to what went

59:52 on really. Like what?

59:53 Him taking any part in this? When the FBI put the DNA into

59:57 CODIS, it came back with nothing, no hit.

1:00:00 So there was no nobody with a criminal record certainly had

1:00:04 committed this crime that they knew of.

1:00:06 No, but the interesting thing is that I think it was in. 2020

1:00:15 Yeah, it took quite some time for them to to get to a

1:00:18 different point with the DNA. That's right.

1:00:20 They decided they were constantly putting the DNA

1:00:23 whenever they had time I guess, into the genealogy websites and

1:00:28 see whether they got a hit started.

1:00:30 Getting more and more use this was.

1:00:31 Around the time that the Golden State Killer, Golden State

1:00:34 Killer was crime was sold through a genealogy website.

1:00:37 So they did the same thing and they got a hit and what they

1:00:41 found was that the DNA found on the tracksuit matched a family

1:00:48 member of one of Sherry's ex boyfriends.

1:00:53 Yeah, OK. Well, yeah, familiar DNA so.

1:00:57 It wasn't your DNA, so it was a, it was a family member of James.

1:01:00 Family member. Yeah, yeah.

1:01:01 Yeah, so that of course they go. This is unbeknownst to Sherry at

1:01:05 this point. They go and interview this

1:01:09 ex-boyfriend of hers named James and and he lived in Costa Mesa

1:01:15 in California. Yeah.

1:01:17 And. Well, should we just take one

1:01:19 little step back? Before we go into.

1:01:20 That apartment itself, well, only in the fact that in all of

1:01:23 this time, like they're interviewing slowly they get

1:01:26 more information out of her. And part of that information

1:01:28 that she gives that is consistent is the room that she

1:01:32 was in. That's a very good point.

1:01:33 There's a there's particular stuff she says about that room 1

1:01:36 being a coffee table that was in the room, and it's quite a.

1:01:39 Distinctive coffee table. Yeah, this is the thing.

1:01:41 She does describe this coffee table as having like this

1:01:43 marble, fake marble top, whatever.

1:01:46 And to the point where Keith, because Keith is, and I get this

1:01:49 entirely, he's at a point of like, she's been kidnapped.

1:01:52 Like, do they know where we live?

1:01:53 Are our kids safe? Is she's safe?

1:01:54 Are they going to come back? Like, I can understand that

1:01:57 fully. So he's like, I want these

1:01:58 people found and I want this, you know, sorted.

1:02:01 So he was always like trying to get more out of it.

1:02:05 But yeah. So he even found like a picture

1:02:06 on the web on on the, you know, searching on Google for images

1:02:09 and kind of found a table that she went, yeah, like that one.

1:02:11 It's kind of like that that he then gave to the the FBI and

1:02:15 said she says it looks a bit like this.

1:02:16 He actually. Contacted the FBI so many times.

1:02:19 Every time Sherry would remember something or give something that

1:02:22 he, yeah, didn't know. Yeah, he would tell the FBI.

1:02:26 The other thing that she described was the rooms itself

1:02:28 in terms of being the fact that she was, you know, had this

1:02:30 waste chain around her that there was lock yeah, which was

1:02:35 then linked to the wardrobe. And the wardrobe had this very

1:02:39 interesting setup of like some shelving at the top where there

1:02:42 was a pole that went through and that her chain was on a on a

1:02:47 angry to that. Yeah.

1:02:48 And that she was attached to that basically the entire time,

1:02:51 other than when she was allowed to use the bathroom and.

1:02:53 Although she did say in one of her interviews that she used a

1:02:56 Kitty litter box in the wardrobe.

1:02:58 There was like a bucket. There's a yeah, that was like a

1:03:00 bucket in the yeah, she reckons anyway.

1:03:03 But yeah, but. Again, I think that was only one

1:03:05 interview. She said that she forgot about

1:03:07 that detail and subsequent interviews, allegedly.

1:03:10 And then there was this bed and there was these boarded up

1:03:12 windows, all these things. So, yeah, so when they rock up

1:03:16 at this James's house, when you go into the bedroom there, those

1:03:21 things are tick, tick, tick. She was accurate, like, and it

1:03:24 was actually what found what actually part of what led them

1:03:27 to James was that he they were looking into him when they found

1:03:30 this familiar DNA and kind of went, well, OK, that could be

1:03:32 then she actually knows this person in that family.

1:03:35 Could it be him? They looked at his Facebook

1:03:38 profile and I think it was even his profile picture.

1:03:40 There was a photo of him on like a beanbag leaning back.

1:03:42 And in the very corner of the photo is a coffee table with

1:03:47 this marble like top. Yep.

1:03:49 And so yeah, they look at that and kind of go, well, hey, wait,

1:03:52 this connect this is this has got to be the blight.

1:03:54 It's it's an ex-boyfriend of hers known to her.

1:03:57 And he's got the same coffee table she's described now.

1:04:02 Yeah, I just. OK, we'll get to it later.

1:04:04 I. Don't know, Go Oh.

1:04:05 I don't know, I just at this point are the cops thinking of

1:04:09 themselves. Yeah, this guy has kidnapped her

1:04:12 and done this. But honestly, I think at the

1:04:14 time, the cops alike, what the fuck is going on here?

1:04:18 Like, I think they're, I don't think they're like, oh, we've

1:04:21 nailed this. Yeah, this is.

1:04:23 Me. Yep, we've got it.

1:04:24 We've got him, we've got him, we're gonna nail him.

1:04:26 Yeah. I think it was more what the.

1:04:29 She's been hanging, actually going with her ex-boyfriend,

1:04:31 not. Now being abducted now in all of

1:04:34 this as well. It's the other thing is that the

1:04:38 FBI were forensically looking into everything to do with their

1:04:42 lives. Yeah, now that would be so

1:04:44 violating, but it is what it is. And but what they did, they've

1:04:48 gone through all of their financial documents.

1:04:50 They've gone through all of Sherry's phone.

1:04:53 And what they found was that Sherry had been conversing with

1:04:56 two people who were in her phone under women's names who were

1:05:02 actually men. Yep.

1:05:04 Now the FBI went out and interviewed these men, and

1:05:08 Sherry had been engaging in, I'm going to call it, an emotional

1:05:12 affair with both. Yeah, she hadn't met up with

1:05:15 one, but she had met up with the other.

1:05:17 So who knows what happened in those rendezvous.

1:05:19 I'm not sure. Amazing.

1:05:20 Stuff that was happening at the start of their relationship that

1:05:23 caused K post up. You know, in some ways we can

1:05:27 look at and kind of go act a little irrationally and put in

1:05:29 this post up, post up agreement in place, but you kind of go,

1:05:32 well, hang on a second. It was continuing, Yeah.

1:05:35 It was still going on. Yeah, But the police ruled those

1:05:37 two people out. But they how?

1:05:39 Awful. Would that be though?

1:05:40 Like your wife's missing and you, the cops are pulling you in

1:05:43 to have conversations around things and they've just had to

1:05:45 disclose to him of like, so she's been like having these

1:05:49 conversations. Do you know who these people

1:05:50 are? Do you know what this would be

1:05:52 about? See that interview on one of the

1:05:53 documentaries has interviewed for.

1:05:56 They're like, do you realize that she's got they're under

1:05:59 women, women's names, but they're actually men she's been

1:06:02 talking to. And he's like, he's like.

1:06:04 What, what, what like how that's so like fuck with your brain

1:06:08 stuff of like you're desperate to find the mother of your

1:06:10 children, your wife, the person you love, and then you find out

1:06:15 things about them that you go. Yeah, but I feel like Keith

1:06:17 fully compartmentalized is that. Yeah, at the time, which fair if

1:06:21 that's. Him if he could do it like that.

1:06:23 If that's what you need to do, that's what you need to do.

1:06:25 Because all he cared about, I think at that time was just

1:06:29 finding Sherry and finding her alive, which is fine.

1:06:33 So anyway, the police are interviewing James now, having

1:06:37 ruled out these other two ex acquaintances of Sherry's.

1:06:42 Yeah, but also with the DNA. Also with the DNA that's right.

1:06:46 So James, basically they so his interview with the FBI and the

1:06:52 police weren't. Very interesting.

1:06:53 Hours and hours now. The FBI agent that stands like,

1:06:56 you know, and at this point we were like 2 years in with Sherry

1:07:00 and really clutching at small amounts of information, yeah,

1:07:04 like barely getting much out of her and her consistencies.

1:07:07 Within an hour we got a full proper story out of him

1:07:09 basically. So when they first interview

1:07:12 started the interview and again, you can see this online, he or

1:07:16 you can actually see parts of it in the documentary as well.

1:07:20 But he basically is like, no, no, I don't know what you're

1:07:23 talking about. Don't know what you're talking

1:07:24 about. And they're like, you're, we

1:07:26 know you're involved with this because your DNA has come up on

1:07:29 things. And then he's like, oh, right.

1:07:31 Well, I'll tell you what. Exactly what happened.

1:07:33 Yeah. So James's version of events is

1:07:35 that Sherry was incredibly unhappy in her marriage and that

1:07:39 Keith was abusive towards her. And she'd reached out to him

1:07:43 because she wanted some respite from all of it in.

1:07:48 His words She was a friend in need.

1:07:50 Yep. And so therefore I was.

1:07:51 I'll be there for her. And friends who knew them as a

1:07:54 couple at the time said. You know, we always knew he was

1:07:58 someone who would do anything for her.

1:08:01 Oh, she obviously. Literally.

1:08:02 And yeah, this is it. So what he says is that they

1:08:06 arranged for him to pick her up. They used burner phones the.

1:08:10 Two of them. That's a good point.

1:08:11 Which? He says, I mean he does not hold

1:08:14 back and the FBI clearly say he was credible in his interview.

1:08:18 Yep. And stated that on Sherry's

1:08:22 directive, they've got different got phones that weren't their

1:08:28 regular phones because obviously.

1:08:29 Keith was suspicious of Sherry. Yeah, because.

1:08:31 She would have. Potentially checked her phone,

1:08:33 Checked her phone, checked for messages.

1:08:35 Yeah, she knew that. Yeah.

1:08:37 So she used that to say to him like, you know, let's get

1:08:40 different, you know, phones that we're not being checked up on.

1:08:43 Yeah. And so through that, they were

1:08:44 communicating, like beginning those.

1:08:46 And because they could, the FBI said they could save messages on

1:08:49 her other phone from him. But then it kind of went quiet,

1:08:51 building up to the eventual disappearance.

1:08:54 So there's a point where she was like, let's switch to these

1:08:57 burner phones, yeah. So according to James, he'd

1:08:59 actually lost his license at the time, so he was unable to get a

1:09:02 car. Yeah.

1:09:03 And so one of his Co workers rented a car for him and he

1:09:08 drove, I think I believe it was like, how many hours?

1:09:11 It was multi hours. Yeah.

1:09:13 So long. It was a long.

1:09:14 Drive, Yeah. To get her.

1:09:16 So he lived in California, but very Southern California, where

1:09:19 she lived far more north in Reading.

1:09:23 And so. Yeah, he was in Costa Mesa at

1:09:25 the time. Yeah.

1:09:26 And so he's rented this car, driven up, picked her up.

1:09:30 She has gone in the back seat and laid down for the entire

1:09:34 trip home. And apparently, According to

1:09:35 him, she slept the whole way home.

1:09:37 He is exhausted, having just completed what would be an 18

1:09:41 hour round trip. They get back to his house, and

1:09:44 she insists that he bought up the windows.

1:09:47 Yeah. And.

1:09:49 That did everything she told, He told.

1:09:51 She told me she he just did it all.

1:09:53 Now this is this I find bizarre. I don't know about you, but what

1:09:59 he claims is that all of the injuries that Sherri sustained

1:10:04 were because she asked him to either do them on her or she did

1:10:08 them to herself. Now he says that she starved

1:10:11 herself and that's how she lost such a significant.

1:10:15 Amount of weight. She would offer her food and she

1:10:16 would just say no, I don't want to.

1:10:18 Eat. She asked him.

1:10:20 According to him, she asked him to hit her in the face with a

1:10:23 hockey A hockey stick. Yep, that's what broke her nose.

1:10:28 She bashed her head into the coffee table at some point of

1:10:33 her own volition. Yep, she asked him to go to some

1:10:36 hardware store to get the items with which to brand her.

1:10:41 Did you see in the Court in a Lie documentary in that in the

1:10:44 section where she pulls out her kit of that at home.

1:10:49 It's exactly she's like doing it as like to try and get sympathy

1:10:51 and saying like, you know, I just can't do this anymore.

1:10:54 So it used to be my love and my a bit of a passion.

1:10:56 I would do this, but now I can't after what James did to me.

1:11:00 Fuck me. No, you knew what you were doing

1:11:01 by, you know, getting that equipment because you knew how

1:11:03 it worked. Yeah, I just it blew my mind

1:11:06 that she thought that people would see that as a not

1:11:09 connected that she couldn't she how would he know to go and get

1:11:12 that? Equipment 100% we used.

1:11:14 To talk about how he used to love doing that and he knew

1:11:16 that. So she was saying in that

1:11:18 documentary that she'd make coasters for people with their

1:11:21 initial. For like for Christmas,

1:11:22 Christmas, which I'm sure she did because she.

1:11:24 That's who she was. Yeah.

1:11:26 Yeah. And then she was basically

1:11:27 saying that, you know, because. Good.

1:11:29 Yeah. Because she was saying that her

1:11:32 and James would talk about that, that she made those and that

1:11:35 then he had the idea to go and buy that and brand her.

1:11:39 No, no. She was like, I've got I've got

1:11:41 this kid at home. I do this with wood.

1:11:43 Do that to me on my shoulder. I'm sorry.

1:11:45 That's exactly how that went down.

1:11:47 Yeah. Yeah.

1:11:48 No. It's so fucked up.

1:11:50 Totally. So then, according to James, on

1:11:54 Thanksgiving morning, she said to him, Oh, no, sorry.

1:11:57 The night before Thanksgiving, she said to him, I really miss

1:12:01 my kids. I need to get back to my kids.

1:12:03 And so they got in the car and she asked him to shackle her

1:12:08 with the chains around her waist and.

1:12:11 Apparently, she said she put them on herself.

1:12:15 Really. Yeah.

1:12:17 Oh fucking hell. Yeah, she put them on herself

1:12:19 and that's why, like when you see that footage of her running.

1:12:22 Yeah, along the church car park, they're not actually on properly

1:12:25 yet. She waits to put them on where

1:12:27 she doesn't have to run anymore and where she can.

1:12:29 That's interesting because it looks like she's been dumped.

1:12:31 I actually. Thought in that footage though

1:12:32 she is running a bit now. She's not.

1:12:34 Is it because she's holding the chains?

1:12:36 Maybe? Yeah, it's not actually that

1:12:38 she's bound. Yeah, there's kind of people

1:12:40 sort of look at it and go, yeah, there's not her legs.

1:12:42 She when she's found like the way she's like bounced in that

1:12:46 when she's actually found, she couldn't have run like she ran.

1:12:49 Yeah, OK, yeah, yeah. I mean there's so many holes to

1:12:52 her story Yeah. But what Sherry claims happened

1:12:55 in those 22 days. So her story obviously changes.

1:12:58 So the FBI have then confront Sherry.

1:13:01 They bring fascinating that oh, I.

1:13:03 Love that and they did so well. Those cops did a brilliant job

1:13:07 in that interview. Amazing.

1:13:08 Yes to like. Amazing.

1:13:10 She had, they had Keith and and Sherry in the room, which I love

1:13:14 that the way the reasoning for doing that is seeing if there's

1:13:16 any communication between the two of them that indicates

1:13:18 anything to, you know, really rule out if Keith knew of any of

1:13:22 this, if this was a, you know. Were they trying to get?

1:13:24 Trying to get money, were they trying to get, you know, media

1:13:27 attention, whatever. So that was going to rule that

1:13:30 out or confirm it and but also put her in this massive hot seat

1:13:35 and wow, that's it was good police work that I really

1:13:39 thought that. Was really agreed so they

1:13:42 basically say to Sherry you know thank you so much for coming in

1:13:47 we've got some information for you you're just letting you know

1:13:51 you're not under arrest you're free to leave at any time but

1:13:55 basically we know that you've done this you know basically we

1:14:00 they. The DNA's come back with.

1:14:02 The DNA's come back. We have we know about James and

1:14:05 she's like, she's like what what?

1:14:07 And she I can, you can almost in that video, even though it's

1:14:10 like CCTV, you can see the cogs turning kind of.

1:14:14 Oh yeah, because the first thing that she's doing, yeah, that

1:14:18 look and she's. Oh, I know what you're about to

1:14:21 say. Cannot stand the way she sits in

1:14:24 this fetal fetal position like that just does my headache.

1:14:28 And it's and it's something that when you watch videos of her

1:14:31 prior to her being abducted, this is not a trauma response

1:14:34 from what happened to her. This is something she had done

1:14:37 all forever, that she makes herself look tiny and painting

1:14:41 OK, and she's not well. No, no, no, no.

1:14:47 So basically, this is actually so funny.

1:14:49 It really reminds me of there's a podcast that I used to listen

1:14:54 to and it was about, it was one, it was a Mama Mia podcast.

1:15:00 And anyway, they used to talk about different celebrities and

1:15:03 stuff. And they talk about Ariana

1:15:05 Grande doing this like trying to be little and like how her

1:15:08 bodyguard always carries her like she's a baby, like she's an

1:15:11 infant. And you can find photos of

1:15:13 Ariana Grande online with that. And you're like, oh fucking

1:15:15 hell. And I'm like, this is fucking

1:15:17 Cherie Papini all over again. Like she is, she tries to make

1:15:21 herself look infantile. It's bizarre.

1:15:24 And you're right. It's not since her this apparent

1:15:29 or alleged trauma. No, this is.

1:15:32 Free that way back, yeah, she's. It's a manipulative tactic that

1:15:36 she uses. People people though, say her

1:15:39 supporters say that this was probably a response to when she

1:15:43 was sexually assaulted as a minor.

1:15:45 I don't disagree with that. Yeah.

1:15:47 But it, it is a manipulative thing of like, you know, it's

1:15:50 again, it's like trying to get people's sympathy.

1:15:53 Sympathy. Yeah.

1:15:54 It's I'm little, I'm like. I'm vulnerable.

1:15:57 I'm I'm actually. And I'm sorry, she's freaking

1:16:00 just beating the shit out of herself and, you know, branded

1:16:03 herself. That's not that's not Well, she

1:16:05 didn't. Brand herself.

1:16:07 She convinced someone else to Brand.

1:16:09 Her, but she's allowed herself to be branded.

1:16:10 Anyone who wants to go through that has chosen to go through

1:16:13 that. Yeah, that's bizarre.

1:16:15 I'm sorry. See, this is this is where I'm

1:16:18 like, oh, what kind of culpability does James have in

1:16:20 this? Because absolutely he should be.

1:16:25 In my opinion, he needs to be charged with assault.

1:16:27 Well, it's hard because it is what what they're saying is

1:16:30 consensual. She consented to these things.

1:16:32 But but how can you consent to being physically assaulted?

1:16:38 She did she. I know, I know, I know.

1:16:40 According to him, she. Did I know?

1:16:42 Yeah. And that's the thing the police

1:16:44 said in that first initial interview, right?

1:16:46 If she had sat there and said right, I'm like confessing now,

1:16:51 yes, it was James that abducted me and he, he did these things

1:16:54 to me. If she had done that in that

1:16:56 interview, they would have then looked further into James and

1:17:00 potentially the charges would have gone there.

1:17:02 But that's not what she did. No.

1:17:03 That's not what she did, so therefore they know that it's

1:17:07 all lies. So what she what?

1:17:10 What Sherry says once they call her out on all this, she's like,

1:17:15 no, no, it wasn't James. It wasn't James.

1:17:17 Yeah. Meaning she like she's trying to

1:17:22 say to the police and the FBI that she can't believe that

1:17:28 James was involved in there. It was still the two Hispanic.

1:17:32 Women. Yeah, she's still doubling down

1:17:33 on that. But I can't believe James was

1:17:35 behind that. Yeah.

1:17:36 And they're like, no, no, no, no, no, no.

1:17:38 That's. Not what?

1:17:39 No, there were no. They outright say it to it.

1:17:42 James. We spoke to James.

1:17:43 He's told us you told him to do these things to you.

1:17:46 Now, 3 days before they pulled her in to tell her this, yeah,

1:17:50 they made James. Or well, they asked James to

1:17:53 undertake a polygraph. Yep, he passed that polygraph

1:17:56 with flying colours. Yeah.

1:17:58 No issues. No, there wasn't about it one.

1:18:02 Issue. Yeah.

1:18:03 The one of the particular questions he passed was did

1:18:06 Sherry ask you to brand her? And he said yes.

1:18:10 And there was no indicators that he was lying in that.

1:18:14 Yeah. There were.

1:18:15 There were so many questions. Yeah, heaps of them.

1:18:17 In particular, he was directly. Asked that one a long time.

1:18:20 Yeah. So the police and the FBI are

1:18:23 like Ryan we've got here. She double s.

1:18:26 Yeah, they took a long time before the next next steps

1:18:29 though they that wanted to get they crossed cross their TS and

1:18:32 dot their eyes big time to take go any further.

1:18:34 With her, she fucking double S down on it, doesn't she?

1:18:37 Absolutely. Yeah.

1:18:38 She. So basically what happens then

1:18:40 is over that course of, I mean how many years was that?

1:18:43 Another two years. Another two years.

1:18:45 Yeah, it wasn't till March 2022, fucking hell that they actually

1:18:48 arrested her. Yeah, so.

1:18:50 But in that time, she's changed. She's had enough time,

1:18:53 obviously, to think about this and think about what her story

1:18:57 is going to be. And what she says is that she

1:19:01 was going for a run that day, that she was kidnapped.

1:19:05 In their quote, she claims that she'd been in contact with

1:19:10 James, but she didn't know he was coming up to see her.

1:19:15 She says that. Or did she know that he was

1:19:17 coming up but she wanted to end up with him or something?

1:19:19 Or. No, she said at one point she

1:19:23 she said so many different stories.

1:19:24 She actually did say that at one point that she wanted to break

1:19:27 up with him face to face because.

1:19:28 What she was just basically saying is eventually, she says

1:19:31 she didn't want to say that James was involved because she

1:19:35 was having an emotional affair with him.

1:19:37 Yeah. And that she didn't want to find

1:19:39 out about that because of the pre post not that's right.

1:19:42 A post not. So yeah, she was saying that she

1:19:44 was going to end it with him and he arrived and pulled up like

1:19:48 she was they were going to meet up or something.

1:19:50 And then he appeared, and at the car at that.

1:19:52 Corner, I don't think. I think her story was that she

1:19:55 didn't know he was coming that day.

1:19:57 That day, yeah, I don't think I think she was on the job kind of

1:19:59 knowing that she was going to catch up with him and planning

1:20:01 to end it. But.

1:20:02 Why would he talking anyway? Whatever.

1:20:04 Yeah, but basically what she says is that he got her into the

1:20:09 car, drugged her. Yeah.

1:20:12 She opened her eyes at one point and didn't really know where she

1:20:16 was, but it was daylight and then she couldn't keep her eyes

1:20:19 open anymore. And then the next time she

1:20:20 opened her eyes, she was at his house.

1:20:22 Yeah. 9 hours away, Yeah. Or whatever.

1:20:26 Many, many hours away, Yeah. And that he kept her captive, he

1:20:34 starved her, he beat her. Wouldn't.

1:20:36 Starve her, apparently, because she said the first meal he gave

1:20:40 her, he, she, it had drugs in it.

1:20:42 And so then from then on, what, she wouldn't eat anything that

1:20:45 he gave her was what she said. Yeah.

1:20:46 Because she was like, oh, no, no, he was drugging me.

1:20:48 And so I didn't want to take any, eat any of the food.

1:20:51 Yeah. Yes, he hit her with a hockey

1:20:54 stick. Yes, he branded her.

1:20:58 She does say that he didn't sexually assault her.

1:21:00 Yeah. Which I find interesting and

1:21:08 what she says is so the other thing actually just before we

1:21:11 get to this as well is before before all this happened, she

1:21:17 did composite sketches of these two Hispanic women.

1:21:22 Now, in her explanation of how this all unfolded, she said that

1:21:28 the older of the two women, she based on an image of James's

1:21:33 mum. Now, the FBI had a private

1:21:37 investigator who was looking into all of this from API

1:21:42 perspective. Yeah.

1:21:44 And what the private investigator found was that

1:21:47 James's mum wasn't Hispanic. She was actually Irish.

1:21:50 Yeah, redheaded. Yeah.

1:21:53 Didn't look pale skin and didn't look Hispanic at all when they.

1:21:56 Put that to her in the doctor, I know, and she's just like, oh, I

1:21:59 don't know. I'm not limited twice anyway.

1:22:02 Now if I could meet somebody for three seconds and be like,

1:22:05 you're not Hispanic, you're a redheaded headed Irish.

1:22:09 Person. But that to me says that she

1:22:11 actually, when she's met this person, has not absorbed any

1:22:14 information about them because I don't mean anything to her.

1:22:18 To me, she says so much about her.

1:22:19 But she actually says that even in the documentary, she's like,

1:22:22 Oh well, it didn't, it was his mom.

1:22:24 It's but I'm talking about James.

1:22:26 Yeah. And he was his.

1:22:28 Boyfriend for like 12 months at some point.

1:22:31 Yep. Like she's so self absorbed.

1:22:35 So. Self that she hasn't even

1:22:37 noticed what his parents look like.

1:22:41 Like it's so such, it makes her such an awful human being.

1:22:45 Such an awful human. She is an awful, awful human.

1:22:49 Yeah, no. Regardless of anything, yeah,

1:22:52 she's an awful human I can't stand.

1:22:56 So in the documentary, the one that she did, the the.

1:23:01 Caught in a lie? Caught in a Lie documentary,

1:23:03 yeah. There is not one moment, even

1:23:07 though that documentary, I think she thinks people are going to

1:23:10 be sympathetic to her. There is not one moment in that

1:23:14 documentary that I'm like, oh you poor thing.

1:23:20 I'm like you fucking first of all, she's a fucking lunatic.

1:23:24 She really is. She's a total fucking lunatic.

1:23:26 I know that's an I know. That's like a non PC thing to

1:23:30 say. She shouldn't.

1:23:30 Say that about people. But she is like so fucked up.

1:23:36 Yeah, Oh. She does not live in reality.

1:23:38 No, the and to the point of at the end.

1:23:41 Of it? What about the beep at the very

1:23:43 very start of that? Documentary.

1:23:45 Start where she's like, she does this thing and she's like, oh,

1:23:48 that's my magic wand. Do you know what I'm talking

1:23:50 about? Yeah.

1:23:51 And she's like, I'm going to say ridiculous things because this

1:23:53 whole situation is ridiculous. Oh, she's just.

1:23:57 She's awful, so awful. Oh God, what did she say that at

1:24:02 the opening line of it of like, you know, this is my chance to

1:24:05 say hi, I'm Sherry Papini and you haven't met me or some.

1:24:08 Bullshit, you don't even know me.

1:24:10 Yeah, Yeah, we do. I've.

1:24:11 Got I think we know everything we actually fucking need to know

1:24:15 about. You ever want to meet somebody?

1:24:16 Her. Need for attention, sympathy and

1:24:21 external validation blows my fucking mind.

1:24:25 Yeah. Well, so in that same

1:24:27 documentary, they bring in her psychologist, her actual

1:24:32 psychologist. This is so fucked up, go on.

1:24:35 Oh my God. So now I have a real thing on

1:24:37 this that OK, psychologists, If you need a psychologist, you go

1:24:42 to a psychologist 100. A lot of like support for that.

1:24:46 Yep. However, if you genuinely need a

1:24:49 psychologist, sometimes you're not going to like what that

1:24:51 psychologist has to say to you. And This is why I think some

1:24:55 people don't continue because absolutely sometimes it's hard

1:24:58 to feel hard to. Say you're going to get told.

1:25:01 So I do find that generally, generally these people who

1:25:03 really need some psychology and some treatment tend to maybe

1:25:06 shop around and find a psychologist who's going to tell

1:25:08 them what they. Want to hear 0100?

1:25:10 Percent. I don't know, maybe that.

1:25:11 This and who happened here and who did Sherry land on?

1:25:14 Well, so I won't go into his credentials and who he is, to be

1:25:18 honest, because I just, it doesn't, it doesn't really

1:25:20 matter at the end of the day. He has decided that he thinks

1:25:23 that she has a disorder by the name of self defeating

1:25:27 personality disorder. He talks about this extensively

1:25:30 in that documentary. Now it's also known as sorry

1:25:33 masochistic personality disorder.

1:25:36 Now this disorder, OK, first of all, I'll tell you what it is.

1:25:40 OK, so the definition of it is that it describes A pervasive

1:25:44 pattern of engaging in self sabotaging behaviours that

1:25:47 undermine one's own happiness, success and goals, often by

1:25:51 avoiding pleasure, choosing painful situations, reject,

1:25:54 rejecting help or sacrificing for others.

1:25:57 Even when it causes personal distress, though, it's no longer

1:26:00 oh, sorry, wait, no, OK, sorry. It's not in the DSM.

1:26:03 Five, it's not in the DSM 5, and neither is masochistic

1:26:08 personality disorder. Neither of them are in the DSM

1:26:10 5. Doesn't then say that she's got

1:26:12 some kind of histrionic? Personality does that one yes

1:26:15 yeah, tick. So when you in that same

1:26:17 documentary, there's another psychology.

1:26:18 She's very well known and very well respected right and they

1:26:21 even throughout I don't know really why they put her in there

1:26:23 because she's basically the whole time going I really can't

1:26:25 help you here because she's a whole piece of work like you

1:26:28 know, and she talks about the possibility of histrionic

1:26:30 personality disorder. This one I do agree with yeah,

1:26:32 he doesn't mention it, but I'm sorry, the whole self defeating

1:26:36 personality disorder fuck off. It is so nice and lovely and you

1:26:39 know, the poor thing. No sorry, self labotaging.

1:26:43 Not in the way this that that describes it.

1:26:46 Histrionic personality disorder, on the other hand, is a mental

1:26:48 condition marked by excessive emotional and pervasive need for

1:26:51 attention, causing dramatic, flirtatious, and often shallow

1:26:55 behavior, behavior that makes maintaining authentic

1:26:58 relationships difficult. People with HPD feel

1:27:01 uncomfortable when not the center of attention, use

1:27:03 physical appearance to draw attention, to draw focus,

1:27:06 express emotions rapidly and superficially, and treatment is

1:27:10 usually long term and is quite often and well goes hand in hand

1:27:16 with narcissistic and borderline personalities. 100% I mean,

1:27:20 armchair armchair psychologist over here or psychiatrist over

1:27:24 here 100% I'm sorry. She takes every frigging box.

1:27:29 Oh my God, every. Even this one where it says it

1:27:31 talks about the fact they often have vague speech.

1:27:34 So this speech is often impressionistic, lacking in

1:27:37 detail, and overly dramatic. Oh my God.

1:27:40 So I'll tell you what, yeah, she never fucking answers a question

1:27:43 directly. No, no.

1:27:44 Especially if it's one that's gonna get her out.

1:27:46 Yeah, the way she doesn't even answer.

1:27:47 And she just, she'll literally change the subject and answer

1:27:51 something different. And then the interviewer says to

1:27:53 her, oh, wait a minute. No, no, you didn't understand.

1:27:55 Yeah. And she still doesn't

1:27:57 understand. She still doesn't answer it.

1:27:59 Now the other thing that we need to talk about is Keith's sister.

1:28:03 OK, yeah, let's get into that. OK, so Keith's sister, yes, is

1:28:08 so Sherry's sister-in-law now, she's said.

1:28:12 Keith's sister says that she and Keith aren't all that close.

1:28:16 Yeah. Sherry and her sister-in-law are

1:28:20 close. Sherry, the sister-in-law.

1:28:24 Only after this one went down. The sister-in-law, though, is a

1:28:29 counselor and is counselling Sherry through marriage

1:28:33 counsellor. She also let Sherry into a home

1:28:39 and live with her. Yeah, after all, after the shit

1:28:42 hit the fan with Keith, after Keith found out that.

1:28:45 Well, no. After she was like, no, sorry,

1:28:47 no, no, no, no between, sorry, between when she was arrested.

1:28:50 But Keith was like, I'm out. Yeah.

1:28:52 And before she went to jail. Sorry.

1:28:53 It's when she lived with, with her sister.

1:28:55 With the sister-in-law. Yeah.

1:28:56 So yeah, once Keith, obviously once Keith found out that all

1:29:00 this ship had gone down with James, they separated.

1:29:03 When she. I think there was the day she

1:29:04 was arrested in March 2022. Yep.

1:29:08 He separated from her that day. OK, Yeah, Yeah.

1:29:10 Fair. Yeah.

1:29:11 No, I Yep. 100% fair. Well, he also filed for.

1:29:15 Full custody. Sole custody and was granted

1:29:19 sole custody because his ex-wife or soon to be ex-wife was about

1:29:23 to go into prison. So, well, that, and I mean, I'm

1:29:25 sorry, these behaviours are very, very problematic and it I

1:29:29 mean, there's other things that you brought up with that which

1:29:31 we can discuss of whether or not we believe that and what the

1:29:34 what that I'll is. But yeah, it it she's and it got

1:29:38 some interesting mental health issues.

1:29:39 I think that we need that need to be addressed around whether

1:29:42 or not she is suitable to be around her children.

1:29:44 Definitely. So we've kind of jumped ahead a

1:29:45 little bit here. So yeah, she was arrested.

1:29:48 Yeah, she was charged. Now, what have I got here?

1:29:51 She was charged with I've got it written down.

1:29:55 Changed my page. Sorry, same.

1:29:57 Oh my God, she's a Oh my God. She was charged with with making

1:30:02 false statements to federal agents and mail fraud, which is

1:30:05 about the fact that what she claimed was compensation money.

1:30:09 So she was, there was two different types of compensation

1:30:12 money, one from local services and one federally.

1:30:18 So there was services for her, for the psychologists and all

1:30:23 those sort of things that she was having, which, yeah, a

1:30:24 victim of crime that they deserve.

1:30:26 Be getting it, getting some funding.

1:30:27 For all that, and there was also some other money they took were

1:30:30 not took, they were given that she was given about sort of

1:30:32 getting her back on her feet, sort of helping her out.

1:30:34 She couldn't. Work.

1:30:35 And it was so it was about maintaining.

1:30:37 There was, yeah, there was 2 buckets of money that she had

1:30:40 accessed for compensation. Yeah.

1:30:42 So the fact that she'd accepted them and then falsely as they

1:30:45 sort of found that, that becomes male fraud.

1:30:47 That's it. Yeah.

1:30:48 So she pled guilty in April of 2022 to those charges?

1:30:52 Yeah. And admitted that the kidnapping

1:30:55 was fabricated, Yes. And she was sentenced in

1:30:59 September of that year to 18 months in federal prison and

1:31:03 then three years of supervised release.

1:31:05 And she had to pay back $300,000 for the restoration in

1:31:09 restitution. Yeah.

1:31:11 She ended up serving six months. Was it 1010 months?

1:31:14 OK. And what?

1:31:16 Obviously, during that time, during the time that she was in

1:31:19 prison, Keith filed for divorce and filed for the sole custody

1:31:23 of their children. And he was granted both of those

1:31:26 things. Their assets were divided in

1:31:30 that time. What?

1:31:31 No, no they weren't because there was the post nuptial

1:31:33 agreement so she got nothing. Well, yeah, what I mean, sorry,

1:31:37 I didn't mean divided. What I meant was the assets were

1:31:40 settled. Yeah.

1:31:41 What? Yeah, because.

1:31:42 Yeah, she ended up getting absolutely.

1:31:43 Nothing. So he had it pretty much signed,

1:31:46 sealed and delivered in terms of that aspect.

1:31:47 Yeah. And the and the custody of the

1:31:49 children. So yeah, that's where that sort

1:31:51 of landed, yeah. Yeah, she had some contact with

1:31:56 the children after she was released from prison, so she

1:31:59 was. Only visitation rights once a

1:32:01 month. Yeah.

1:32:02 And one phone call a week, I think.

1:32:04 I think so something like that. Yeah, But that was a case

1:32:07 discretion, so it didn't always happen from what I can.

1:32:10 Get Yeah, right. But you know, to this day she is

1:32:13 battling that one still out in the courts in terms of custody.

1:32:16 So that's still a see to what see what happens.

1:32:19 I believe her children are teens now.

1:32:21 Yeah. So, I mean, they're gonna get to

1:32:22 an age where they can make their own decisions on that, which she

1:32:26 she will claim, if she I'm sure she's already claiming that

1:32:29 they've been sort of poisoned by their father against her.

1:32:32 I know immediately she has when the original documentary came

1:32:37 out, which is 2024, she filed a claim a filed a suit against

1:32:42 Keith being able to show the children that documentary

1:32:46 because she felt that it showed her in a poor life.

1:32:47 Prejudicial. Yeah.

1:32:49 Which I mean, I just, that's something that I mean, she's

1:32:52 gonna actually lived with, I think.

1:32:53 It's bizarre that he allowed those children to be in the

1:32:56 documentary. Absolutely gonna go there.

1:32:57 She I mean, look, she brings it up and that's probably the only

1:33:01 thing in that entire court in a lie documentary that I go.

1:33:06 I agree with you, Sherry. Yeah, I don't like that he put

1:33:09 their faces and even their names.

1:33:10 I mean, their names are probably out there, but I just names are

1:33:13 out there. Yeah, they're out there.

1:33:14 But like, I mean, I, I personally don't think that

1:33:16 children should be named or filmed in those things in those

1:33:20 scenarios. I think that we need to protect

1:33:22 them in every way possible. Even in that documentary, he

1:33:25 talks about the fact that he's spoken with his kids around

1:33:27 changing their names. And I'm like, if you've spoken

1:33:31 to them to extent of like that, we might change our names to

1:33:33 sort of have some anonymity. Anonymity.

1:33:36 Oh my God, what time? It's late.

1:33:40 It's late. We can.

1:33:41 Record at night. Yeah, if he's that that fearful

1:33:45 of like, you know, them having protection around that and

1:33:47 changing their name, why are you putting their faces in a

1:33:52 worldwide documentary? 100%.

1:33:54 I don't that doesn't make sense. To me this is what makes me

1:33:57 think with him. He gives me the creeps.

1:33:59 As yeah, there's something not. Quite.

1:34:00 There's something not quite right about him.

1:34:01 I believe that he was controlling.

1:34:04 I actually you can actually see that from certain behaviors

1:34:08 that. But at the same time, and I

1:34:10 don't mean to, like, protect anyone who's controlling, but if

1:34:15 your partner, who you're in love with and you're like, you're

1:34:17 like, I want this perfect life is doing things that you can't

1:34:21 control, like having conversations with men outside

1:34:23 the relationship and lying about things to the extent of what

1:34:27 Sherry was doing to the point where they would.

1:34:29 They had gone to, like, a a gathering with friends and

1:34:33 inadvertently, in playing a Wii game, he had knocked her in the

1:34:36 face and given her a black eye. Right.

1:34:38 She was telling people who weren't at that party that Keith

1:34:41 had hit her. Yeah, like if that's the

1:34:44 personality trait of the person you're living with, I can

1:34:47 understand that feel of need for control like in that of like,

1:34:52 how do I make this all better? How can?

1:34:54 How do I make it right? But he still had a hand in the

1:34:59 way, like he really wanted the portrayal of a, Oh yeah, being

1:35:07 in this perfect family. This is it, Sherry.

1:35:10 Looked the part. Yes.

1:35:12 And so I think he's not completely.

1:35:14 No, no, no, there's definitely totally there's keeping up up

1:35:18 appearances and then there's this level of it.

1:35:20 Yeah, I completely agree with that.

1:35:22 Yeah. But I can understand to a degree

1:35:25 his controlling nature, yes, in dealing with someone with that

1:35:29 personality. Totally understand what you're

1:35:30 saying. Like, what else was he gonna do?

1:35:32 Yeah, he had to control aspects of things to try and like keep,

1:35:37 maintain some kind of, I don't know, normalities or whatever.

1:35:40 Yeah, no, I do understand. What you're saying?

1:35:42 I really. I think we can judge him.

1:35:43 Maybe poorly. Yeah.

1:35:47 I don't know. She would send you baddy, I

1:35:48 reckon. Oh, fuck.

1:35:49 Oh, just like, just even. What's just watching the Court

1:35:54 in a Lie documentary? Yeah, Oh my God, she is just.

1:35:58 Yeah, I feel like she would gaslight you all day long and

1:36:01 you would that would send you a bit Batty.

1:36:03 And I think that's where that I feel for that sense of control

1:36:06 from them of like wanting to kind of go.

1:36:08 No, no, no, no, no, that's not how this is.

1:36:10 I'm going to do it this way. Like that's, you know, I don't

1:36:13 know. Yeah, yeah, yes.

1:36:16 But so going back to his the sister-in-law.

1:36:20 Oh, yes. OK, so yeah, so she is a

1:36:23 marriage counsellor, right? She was counselling a particular

1:36:29 married couple by the name of Sean Hibdon.

1:36:33 And I've just lost his wife's name at the time and they were

1:36:37 on the verge of divorcing. Weirdly enough, his wife did

1:36:44 pass away in 20/24/20 no 2020 two 20/20/2022 sorry from COVID.

1:36:54 It was some really yeah, weird circumstances around her death.

1:37:00 I don't know. I don't know what I think of it.

1:37:02 I don't know, I. Haven't looked.

1:37:03 Look, I've very superficially looked into this because I mean,

1:37:06 you couldn't not, but her name's Brittany.

1:37:11 Brittany, thank you. Thank you.

1:37:12 Sorry, it just came. To my headband but but.

1:37:19 Yeah, it's just too weird that it's weird she, she dies of

1:37:24 COVID like 2 years after Covid's a thing.

1:37:27 Yeah. And the young, healthy, yeah,

1:37:30 vaccinated, all those things. I just kind of.

1:37:33 And everyone said she was fine up until a certain point and

1:37:36 yeah, you know, all these sorts of things.

1:37:37 And he wasn't really overly concerned about her.

1:37:38 And I don't know, there's lots of little Neely bits about it

1:37:42 that didn't add up. And many people do believe that

1:37:45 maybe he had subject. He also has a nursing

1:37:47 background. That was the other thing.

1:37:48 Yep, that red flagged it. Yep.

1:37:50 And so maybe knew what things needed could be done anyway.

1:37:54 So anyway, this random person who's having counselling with

1:37:58 Sherry's sister-in-law, all of a sudden he's in a in a

1:38:01 relationship with Sherry and buys her a $775,000 home to live

1:38:08 in. Well, so she says that he's just

1:38:13 allowing her to. Stay.

1:38:14 Well, that's broken up now. Oh.

1:38:17 And does she still live in the home?

1:38:19 She's trying to, yeah. So.

1:38:22 Basically. What's happened?

1:38:23 So fucking problematic. She's.

1:38:25 Problematic they. Fucking.

1:38:26 Deserve each other. Oh my God.

1:38:27 Yeah. So he's filed a an eviction case

1:38:32 where. So she's this is the house in

1:38:35 the court in a lied documentary, Yes, this is the house that

1:38:37 she's into. She says all my friends are.

1:38:40 Letting me live here. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:38:41 So, yeah, so she, he's trying to evict her.

1:38:44 Now it's unclear as to whether or not she's actually living in

1:38:47 it currently or whether and because this, this court case is

1:38:50 playing out. But basically, so he he's

1:38:53 claiming that she needs to get the hell out and she's clear

1:38:56 declaring that she needs to stay there.

1:39:00 So he bought. The house for her.

1:39:02 Yeah, yeah. So he's just trying to publicly

1:39:04 humiliate me or, and face. So this is this is where it gets

1:39:08 me. OK?

1:39:08 This is what really gets me there.

1:39:09 So this is exactly her words that Hibdon has made threats,

1:39:14 both implied and explicit, that unless I purchase the home under

1:39:17 specific unfavorable terms, I'll be evicted, publicly humiliated,

1:39:22 or face further harm to my personal financial well-being.

1:39:25 It's like victim, me, victim, victim every.

1:39:27 Time. She's always the victim.

1:39:29 She's always the victim. Yeah, so the house is in

1:39:32 Shingleton and he's basically claiming that she he she owes

1:39:36 him $115.00 a day in rent. So anyway, but the other one in

1:39:42 the similar vein, yeah, in that her mother-in-law loaned her

1:39:46 some money against some for some criminal defense attorneys, and

1:39:52 that was about 50 grand that she loaned her and she hasn't paid

1:39:55 her back. So Kathleen Papini, Keith's mum,

1:39:58 ended up taking her to court on that and she lost.

1:40:01 So I mean, as in Sherry lost. So she has been.

1:40:06 Told to pay back five $53,701.00 to Kathleen, which I don't

1:40:11 believe she's paid back yet either I.

1:40:13 Couldn't find any evidence to the fact that she'd even begun

1:40:16 to pay that back. But she also hasn't paid back

1:40:18 the $300,000 that she owes the state.

1:40:20 No, she's also the subject of a another court case where she's

1:40:28 seeking a temporary restraining order against a woman who claims

1:40:31 on her Go Fund Me account that her husband left her for Sherry

1:40:34 Papini. So the woman, Catherine Parrick,

1:40:37 said that she was left homeless after her husband left her.

1:40:40 And Parrick has raised over $1300 towards a three and a half

1:40:44 $1000 on her GoFundMe account. And Sherry is suing her for.

1:40:50 How much I don't know. Didn't say sorry.

1:40:54 Oh no, sorry. She's not suing her.

1:40:55 She's like seeking for a temporary restraining order

1:40:57 against her so that she can. So she pulls down the the

1:41:00 GoFundMe. So Papini is a bit of a lunatic.

1:41:03 I really, I think you've hit the nail.

1:41:04 She's just, I think she's forever going to be in a cycle.

1:41:09 Of yeah, drama, yeah, because she thinks that she wants the

1:41:12 drama. I, I, I think I really, I really

1:41:18 urge people to watch the Court in a Lie documentary because I

1:41:21 think she thinks she's coming across in some in a way that

1:41:27 she's actually to me she's not coming across it.

1:41:30 No, and actually you get a glimpse of it at the end where

1:41:32 she questions like the the interviewer of like, you know

1:41:34 what do you think I'm coming off differently to how I think I am

1:41:37 kind of is this not gonna be good for me?

1:41:39 You know which she don't. If you don't hear the answer.

1:41:43 Which is really interesting because obviously she's starting

1:41:46 to tweak to the fact a little bit of like, oh, you mean that

1:41:49 the rest of the people have spoken here have not spoken well

1:41:51 of me, but. Also because the interviewer

1:41:53 catches a rat and challenges her so many times.

1:41:57 But then she says to the interviewer when she gets caught

1:41:59 out. Yeah, she says the interviewer,

1:42:01 What? You've never lied?

1:42:03 Tell me you've never lied. No, I've never lied about being

1:42:05 and kidnapped and like everyone. Tells right lies, but this is

1:42:09 like. This isn't to that.

1:42:10 This isn't that, you know? That's not the same thing.

1:42:13 You can't tell me that that's the same thing.

1:42:15 The fuck off. Fact that she thinks that's the

1:42:16 same thing. Yeah, is really.

1:42:18 Really wrong. So wrong.

1:42:19 That's where she's just so wrong.

1:42:22 So. Deluded.

1:42:23 Then there's the comment from the mum in the documentary in

1:42:27 that court in a lie documentary. Now the parents are sat in that

1:42:30 and interviewed properly. When you see them in the other

1:42:32 documentary, yeah, you don't see much of them.

1:42:35 They're kind of non existent. But in that next one they see

1:42:37 because she lives with him from for a period of time as well

1:42:39 after she's. Really.

1:42:40 And she's prison until she lives in the boyfriend's house.

1:42:43 But she's like mended the relationship with them and all

1:42:45 these things and they're fabulous people.

1:42:46 Oh bullshit, and they look so different in that interview too

1:42:50 than what they did in the other one anyway.

1:42:52 I know, I know. Yeah.

1:42:53 But it's insane. The mum makes a comment in that

1:42:56 documentary where she says she wasn't kidnapped and what she

1:43:01 thinks happened was that she's been caught in this lie and it

1:43:06 she fully says it, she says the quiet bit out loud and.

1:43:11 The things. She goes on the viral files,

1:43:13 though, Sherry and she's questioned on there about it and

1:43:17 they she really she's like, Oh no, if you ask my mum about that

1:43:20 now she'll tell you a different story because she's she was she

1:43:22 was misquoted. She.

1:43:24 Wasn't misquoted, it was. Really clear what it was.

1:43:26 Very clear what she was. Saying, yeah, that she believes

1:43:29 that you lied about being kidnapped and it wasn't a

1:43:32 kidnapping. She just wanted to spend time

1:43:34 with her boyfriend. Yeah.

1:43:35 Quite literally, and I think her mum's fucking nailed it on the

1:43:38 head. There the other one that she

1:43:40 gets caught out in in that documentary is about what she

1:43:44 does with her phone when she gets kidnapped to So when

1:43:49 originally when she was picked up and they went through what

1:43:52 happened. Her original story that she's

1:43:55 talked to for quite some time was that when these two Hispanic

1:43:59 women came at her, she was like, I want Keith to find me, so I

1:44:04 will. I threw my phone down knowing

1:44:06 that he would find that and ripped some of my hair out.

1:44:10 Right. Yep.

1:44:10 And so it threw it down is what she said.

1:44:13 And that was the story she told of that right through.

1:44:17 Yep. On that documentary, she says,

1:44:19 oh, yeah. Well, no.

1:44:20 When James got there and I wasn't expecting to be there, I

1:44:24 put my phone down and then went. And then he, I got in the car or

1:44:29 whatever. Or she can't remember how she

1:44:30 got in the car. Yeah, and they said to her also,

1:44:32 when did you take the hair out then?

1:44:33 Yeah. And she went, what are you

1:44:35 talking about? I don't know what you're talking

1:44:36 about. Yeah.

1:44:37 She didn't remember to add that detail, but.

1:44:40 She'd said that. Not only said that, but there's

1:44:41 there's the evidence of it is the hair is there.

1:44:44 And then a number of times the interviewer asks her about it to

1:44:46 try and get the information and she cannot fix what she said

1:44:52 because it didn't. She did it the way she argued.

1:44:54 She did it the way she said it originally.

1:44:56 Agreed. In her staging of it, yes.

1:44:59 But now it doesn't fit. The reality of what?

1:45:01 Oh, her new reality. Her new story Of what story?

1:45:04 That's exactly right. Yeah.

1:45:05 Oh man. Oh, there's so much to this

1:45:08 story. It is just fucking unbelievable.

1:45:10 A couple of other things that I just wanted to note.

1:45:12 Yeah, when she was naming the two women.

1:45:16 These are just funny little tidbits.

1:45:18 Oh God, I didn't hear this. So she she called them one

1:45:24 Taint. One was supposedly named Taint.

1:45:28 That's what she heard her being called, supposedly.

1:45:30 And the other one, smegma. Do you know what smegma is?

1:45:34 Smegma what are? Secretions from your downstairs

1:45:37 area. So 1 was smegma and 1 was taint.

1:45:42 The other thing? Again, that goes back to that

1:45:45 it's awfully racist crap. I think I just she's, she's

1:45:48 really got she's. Disgusting.

1:45:49 She really is absolutely disgusting.

1:45:51 And then the other fun fact is that Eminem references the

1:45:56 kidnapping of Sherry Papini in Houdini.

1:46:01 So it's the line is, yeah, caught sleeping and see, the

1:46:05 kidnapping never did happen. No, like Sherry Papini, Harry

1:46:08 Houdini, I vanish into thin air as I'm leaving.

1:46:11 It's like Eminem was here. He was all over it.

1:46:13 Yeah, fuck off. I was going to imagine if I

1:46:18 tried to actually rap. Like I'll give some priority and

1:46:21 he can do. It yeah, you would have given me

1:46:24 way more shit if I'd actually tried.

1:46:26 To oh, 100%. People would be disappointed if

1:46:29 I did that, yeah. So that, you know, this has

1:46:36 become a story that I think everyone knows is a story like

1:46:40 it's a. Story.

1:46:41 Yeah. And look, I feel for James in

1:46:43 this on a level. There's a point of me that kind

1:46:46 of goes, hey, he took this on and he did this and I I agree

1:46:51 with you at a point there's got to be somehow that he's gets

1:46:53 repercussion of doing what he did.

1:46:55 Yeah, I I'm not saying that. But also he's got caught up in

1:46:59 something of her bullshit where he now has he leaves, he's had

1:47:03 to move away and hide because he just and he doesn't want

1:47:06 anything to do with any of this now.

1:47:07 Like he's I'm out. Like, yeah, I mean, I do feel

1:47:11 for him on our level as well-being involved in this

1:47:13 because she's she's got serious issues in just being able to

1:47:16 manipulate people. She has a talent in that area to

1:47:19 be able to do that. Then the other.

1:47:21 But I think he's like. Does is part of a talent?

1:47:24 You know the way she looks and the way she she.

1:47:26 Uses that. It's part of that history.

1:47:28 History. Histrionic.

1:47:29 Personality. Personality disorder.

1:47:31 That she can. She does that.

1:47:32 She uses all what she's got to her advantage, Yeah.

1:47:35 And manipulates people to do what she wants.

1:47:37 Yeah, and get the the sympathy from people.

1:47:41 She's just, Oh my God, she's. Fucking I Honestly, I think it's

1:47:49 a hard thing to say, yeah, because I can't even imagine

1:47:52 this happening to me, but no. She's definitely one out of a

1:47:55 box. She needs not.

1:47:56 What I'm saying is she needs to not be around her children.

1:47:59 She needs to not be around people who are impressionable

1:48:03 like I. I do agree.

1:48:05 I do think that she at best having the visitation that she

1:48:10 has, knowing so her kids know this, that's my mom and that's

1:48:14 who she is and understanding her.

1:48:16 Yeah. But at this point in their

1:48:18 lives, I don't think that really is more they should have to do

1:48:21 with her as adults. They can then choose later on

1:48:25 definitely what kind of relationship they want to have

1:48:27 with her because I think they're going to need to be careful

1:48:29 about those relationships they have with her.

1:48:32 Yes, if, if Keith is as a good man as maybe he is, maybe, I

1:48:39 don't know, he will get them a lot of help to deal with that.

1:48:43 I hope they're getting help. Yeah, I I can't.

1:48:46 I don't know. Keith to me.

1:48:48 I have. Problematic in and of.

1:48:50 Varying opinions of him, I don't know, There's something, there's

1:48:53 something that just. But you'd have to be someone a

1:48:55 little bit off center, I think, to have married her, yeah.

1:48:59 But I think he liked the the image of.

1:49:01 Her Oh yeah, this is it. I think that I think that's what

1:49:03 he's. His fault is in.

1:49:05 It, yeah, I mean, he had a think.

1:49:07 He had a thought of what his life was going to be, and it's

1:49:10 not what ended up happening at all.

1:49:14 Yeah. Even Sherry's sister says that

1:49:17 Sherry has always just wanted attention of the quote from her

1:49:21 is I think she wasn't getting the attention that she wanted

1:49:24 being at home. Yeah.

1:49:26 I think she just really wanted to feel important.

1:49:29 Yeah, she always has. Yeah, that's from her own

1:49:31 sister. That's a direct.

1:49:33 Quote and look, I'm not stupid in thinking that this is a she's

1:49:37 not Born This Way. This is something that has gone

1:49:39 on in her childhood to create this, but she is now an adult

1:49:44 and therefore she is responsible for her actions.

1:49:47 Definitely. I do think that obviously there

1:49:50 was trauma in her childhood that has created someone who

1:49:53 desperately needs, you know, attention, negative or positive

1:49:57 attention. Like, it doesn't matter what it

1:49:59 is as long as it's attention. Yeah.

1:50:01 Really, at the end of the day, drama is drama and I'll take all

1:50:04 of it like you know, but at the same time.

1:50:08 She needs trauma in quite. Perfect.

1:50:10 You know, like I'm. Yeah, I I'm.

1:50:12 She's very, very. She's very interesting.

1:50:14 That's a damn sure. Yeah.

1:50:16 If only a real psychologist could.

1:50:18 Can I say that? Yeah.

1:50:19 Oh. Yeah, I feel like you can.

1:50:23 Absolutely. That gives me the crepes.

1:50:26 Yep, Yep. Because to me it sounded like

1:50:28 from that original documentary with Keith that it was a female

1:50:31 psychologist they were seeing together.

1:50:33 But was that the original guy that was seeing?

1:50:35 Yeah. I don't know.

1:50:38 OK. Yeah, I think so.

1:50:41 I know creepy. It's just a bit creepy.

1:50:43 He's a bit creepy. There's something about him.

1:50:46 Just Nah. The thing that makes me the

1:50:48 angriest about Cheri Papini, though, is that my default is I

1:50:55 always want to believe the victim.

1:50:57 Yep. And this, the whole time we're

1:51:00 watching these documentaries and stuff, she just makes me so

1:51:02 angry because I can't just default to believing, believing

1:51:07 her. And it makes me feel not not

1:51:10 believing her. Yeah.

1:51:11 But then you just. I feel like I'm not, not now I'm

1:51:13 going to get shat on for believing her.

1:51:15 And so I can't believe you. Like, you know, I know, Yeah.

1:51:18 Because awful. I mean, you and I, we're on the

1:51:21 same page on this. We believe women, we believe

1:51:24 victims. We of course, that's, that's our

1:51:28 default position in 99.9% of cases.

1:51:32 Yeah. But women like her put a shadow

1:51:36 on that. And that's not OK, no.

1:51:39 No. Look, and it even makes me

1:51:41 question the validity of her claims as a younger woman.

1:51:45 Yeah. You know, where did the lies

1:51:47 start? I Look, I believe there was

1:51:49 trauma in your childhood. I do believe.

1:51:51 That but now it's really hard to say what and that and.

1:51:55 How severe I. Mean Dad even said it in the

1:51:57 documentary, saying that in the future, if you, if anything

1:52:00 happens, you're going to need so much evidence to be able to

1:52:03 prove anything, you know, because otherwise you're always

1:52:05 going to be the liar. And it's so true because I

1:52:08 literally read those comments about her, about this other guy.

1:52:10 He could be the biggest dirtbag going around doing nasty shit to

1:52:13 her. Do I believe her or him?

1:52:15 I believe him. Yep.

1:52:16 Because of the past. You know, you learn from what

1:52:19 people's past behavior is. That's right.

1:52:21 And Doctor Phil. Yeah.

1:52:23 Oh God, make me vomit. The best prediction of future

1:52:28 behavior is past behavior. It.

1:52:30 Annoys me that he actually says stuff that's true.

1:52:32 It's true. And amongst all this shit, oh

1:52:37 God, yeah. So that's just, it's so

1:52:40 frustrating. She's so frustrating.

1:52:42 Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think let's leave it

1:52:45 there. Yeah, because we could go on all

1:52:46 day about all. Of yeah, chat to us in the

1:52:49 social. Space, I really, I'm so curious

1:52:52 to know what people think. Yeah.

1:52:53 And if you've watched both documentaries, where do you

1:52:56 land? Yeah.

1:52:57 I want to know where people land because I can actually see

1:53:00 potentially how people could have varying opinions on this.

1:53:04 Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

1:53:07 Let us know. Please let us know.

1:53:08 Yeah, please let us. Know tell me how you came to

1:53:10 that different conclusion yes. Yeah, I know the case we're

1:53:13 doing next week. We're doing the Grano family

1:53:17 murders. Oh, the Grano family massacre.

1:53:20 Yeah, that'll be good. Yeah.

1:53:22 Yeah. Excellent.

1:53:24 Yeah, I'm a bit excited about that.

1:53:25 That'll be fun. It will be.

1:53:27 It'll be very interesting. Well, maybe not fun.

1:53:29 Interesting. Yeah, nothing else I haven't

1:53:31 like. Looked at that since I think it

1:53:33 happened. So I'm actually be interested to

1:53:36 get back to it and have to get into a deep deep dive.

1:53:39 For sure. Cool.

1:53:40 All right, well, thank you, everybody for joining us today.

1:53:42 We really appreciate it. Please go and join us over on

1:53:45 TikTok just to make Meg feel better.

1:53:46 Yeah, Yeah. And.

1:53:48 Not just talking to the abuse. Not preaching to to no one.

1:53:52 Thank you for joining us for our second episode of 2026, and we

1:53:56 look forward to everything else that this year is going to

1:53:59 bring. Yeah, stay curious, crime

1:54:00 besties. Bye.

1:54:19 Think every time I've seen you for probably 3 months, I go home

1:54:23 and go. I didn't say it to her again.

1:54:26 Really, really important. I'm nervous.

1:54:33 Real Housewives of Miami, you said to me so long ago I watched

1:54:38 the reunion. It's like mouth jaw-dropping,

1:54:42 like, you know, yes, yes it is. Holy shit when she says they

1:54:48 were having the affair, the two of them.

1:54:50 Oh my God, I know. I literally was like, because,

1:54:53 you know, I'm like, I'm up so late that I was watching it and

1:54:55 I'm going holy fuck, holy fuck. I literally typed out a message

1:55:00 to you, like writing stuff. And then when she's gonna be

1:55:02 asleep, it's off right here. It has been a fair.

1:55:08 I knew what was happening. Oh my God, how good is?

1:55:13 It Oh my God, it was so long ago, but I'm like, I have to.

1:55:17 Sell it. I know.

1:55:18 It's so fucking good. It's so fucking good.

1:55:23 Yeah, that's so funny. Don't go to bed so early, it's

1:55:31 my housewife's time and I can't pass.

1:55:32 Up with her, I love it. Oh my God.