Episode 75 - The Greenough Family Massacre

0:16 Welcome back to Crime Besties to our next episode. How are you? I'm good. How you doing? Yeah, I'm good. I'm well, actually, to be honest with you, I'm unprepared. I feel very unprepared for this case. I I feel like this week has been so we are recording this the week before the kids go back to school. Yeah, back into full blown work, like work has just gone from zero to 100 this week. Everyone's back at work, everyone's has. That's right. Everything's urgent, needs to be done yesterday, yes. So that's been mental.

0:46 And then on top of that, you know, we've got the kids at home and managing all of them. It's just been a crazy, crazy week and I have not like I've had time. But mental load wise? Load wise I haven't because I'm still not in the swing of things and not in my routine yet. I feel for everyone. I, I mean, I have so much empathy for parents that are juggling the school holidays with kids home and trying to work. I just, I don't know how you manage it. I really do have a whole lot of empathy. I, I just, it's not, it's just not conducive to, to families, you know, having kids home and stuff.

1:20 So it's hard. And kids don't particularly like holiday care programs quite often. It's not pretty rare you find a kid who's like send me with a holiday care program, especially when they reach a certain age. I reckon that like and our kids are probably about there, that they'd be like even if they were OK about going there now over it. Age wise definitely, but not but still not old enough to really take themselves entirely. Not at all, although the. Crap out of you. I'm really lucky because I can work from home a little bit and Peter can too, so.

1:50 And we do have, like help from grandparents. Yeah. So we can manage it. Yeah, but it's hard, like working from home with the kids at home takes me back to 2020 when I was ready to triggering. Oh, it's so triggering. We were all ready to bloody murder each other, I think. Oh yeah, yeah, you'd be our next case, yeah. I'm surprised we made it through actually. So yeah, that I feel really unprepared today. So I'm really sorry everyone, if I'm a bit, I don't know, scattered or something. We will get there.

2:19 We will get, we will get there. I'm relying on you, Meg. Oh, fuck. As I always as I always do. I need you to. Keep it in order. I've got a, I've got, I've got the chronological events, which is my Forte. OK. The detail, not so much, but you're really good at that. OK, So who's? She talking to. Yeah, so before we get started, though, I've got We need to Talk about Brooklyn Beckham. Oh, I was wondering if you're gonna bring this up. Oh, I'm down for OK. Yeah, so this is gonna be old news by the time this episode comes out.

2:49 And I just wonder, will we have a video of Victoria at the wedding working? Have you seen the AI I've? Seen. Yeah. It's so great. It's so great. Finally, AI is being put to good. Use it's finally, finally. This is what it was here for. OK, what are your thoughts? Because I have serious thoughts on this. Well, first of all, I feel as though he needed to just have someone proofread and check over his slides before he put them out. Oh, you reckon he didn't write it? You reckon he wrote that? I mean, Sorry.

3:20 Yeah, I think he wrote it OK. You don't think he wrote it? Oh, I reckon he totally had help writing it. But it was so fucking muddled in parts and I'm like, no, it could have been, it was 6 slides, it could have been three, maybe 4:00. And also, did we need like all of the absolute detail? But. OK, so do you believe him? Yeah, I believe. It so do IA 100% Yeah, I don't think you would. I thought you might be a little bit on. I fucking love. I love Victoria, I love her. That whole the whole Victoria Beckham, like we spoke about this at the time.

3:50 I don't know if it was here or Patreon, but I was like that's what the doco that she did and I couldn't even watch all of it. Oh, I. Fucking loved it. Yeah, I couldn't. There was. There's something about them. Yeah. That I don't buy into yeah same like well when I go I go right back to the the nanny the nanny yeah right and that whole scenario how that's kind of just been swept under the rug with them and like and all that that I just go now there is something not right here about the relationship and about the the image they want to portray I. Get that?

4:22 But I think if you come at them knowing that and being fully conscious and aware of that, that's why I believe what Brooklyn's saying. Yes, no, this is the that's it. That's what I can't handle, though, is like, I fully understand where he's coming from. Yeah, and believe him. And I think he's had I think they have done damage to their children by this what their their this portraying of an image they wanted. I that's why I can't buy in. I'm like, oh, no, that's not it's toxic. Yeah, like I can't.

4:48 Oh I'm not saying it's not toxic, I just love it. If there was just the two of them and there weren't children involved and this was all that I, I could go, I could, I could be more a. Lot of that, a lot of that can be said for and I know we've discussed this like just completely coming to mind immediately is the Ruby Frankie stuff and the 8 passengers, right? So many parents exploit their children, it's not even funny. And it's almost in our society where we are consumer whores for this shit. Yeah, it is accepted whether that's OK or not.

5:19 And it's really not. It's really actually not OK, but it is what it is. And we know what we know because they're putting it out there. And so I think if they think people are not gonna weigh in on this and be interested in this and want the video of Victoria at the wedding, then they're deluded. Yeah, because they've created this monster. Mm Hmm. So I'm here for it. I fucking when I saw this, I actually like, squealed. I was like, Oh my God. Oh, he's finally. Done. He's done it. Have you seen the video of it was at some sort of premiere or whatever?

5:53 And there's, yes, David and Victoria and the other kids standing there having photos and then book Brooklyn and Nicola walk in to join the family photo and the IT is I see between her and Victoria and Victoria more so. Yeah, but Victoria also pushes Brooklyn away in that to like, be like, no, no, you're not in this photo. Yeah, like. Behind her even. Let's go back there. Yeah, like there was. It was. Oh my God. I'm like there's, that's and that's what's. Going on in front of cameras, like imagine, you know, the shit storm that's going on.

6:25 Yeah, in the family group chat. Yes, Oh, this is the thing. I just can't. I mean I was just there's no amount of money that can buy class. Like. Oh, there's no money. Money got claw between those two families, even more so hers. Oh shit. Well it's true. This is the other thing and I reckon This is why the Beckham's are like a bit dirty on the whole situation. Beckham's are rich. He. Actually, he actually married up. Yeah, you know, like it's almost impossible. Yeah, the Beckham's are rich, but the Peltzers are like, they are old money.

6:56 They are old money. They they are beyond wealthy. Yeah. And so I think. Might actually have a chance of becoming a chef now. Well, maybe out of his parents, you know, under his parents thumb, maybe he can pursue a career. Oh my God. Have you seen some of the videos He did A he did a video, an interview with I feel like it was tasty or one of those, like online. Yeah, yeah. You know, And he cooked. Oh my God. It was either roast potato or Mashed potato and really hard. Yeah. Oh, fuck me. Like, honestly.

7:29 Oh, but you couldn't call him a chef's no asshole.

7:35 No, you're looking, you know, doing it and you've clearly had a chef in your house all your life because you've have, you have not been in that kitchen with your mum. Making that oh, baby, yeah, totally. I'm totally oh. God, yeah. Oh God. I couldn't wield a knife. You tried. No, it's so funny. But you know, good on him for I guess. Having a dream? Have a dream, mate. Go for it. You reach for those stars. Mm. Hmm. Yeah, I'm here for it, Yeah. Oh, I'm so here for it. I just want to see what the outcome is.

8:02 Do you reckon the beckons are going to they'll go silent respond. I reckon they'll go silent. It's. The classier way to go, Yeah, yeah. If they if they've got any sense, they'll just. Yeah, shut up. Yeah, not add fuel. To the fire, I mean, in the background I'm sure there's shit going down between them, but like publicly I think. Yeah, their PR team would be like not we're not responding. Don't even don't mention anything. Don't say anything. Yeah, PR team will be working overload. Yeah, yeah. Which I think they do with them all the time.

8:31 Yeah, they'd have. I mean, they'd have to. Yeah, they would absolutely have to. God.

8:39 We do have some shout outs today, yes we've got 3 new patreons, Sky Maz and Shalani Piercena. I hope I've said that right. And then we've had some coffees bought for us as well. Well we Tracy Vaughn bought us some coffees with a beautiful comment and then Nicole Nudes bought us some wine for us and then I didn't really. She must have, I don't know, lizardy type animals. I don't know because she in the comments she said something about buy Kyle this not this. Some blood worms or something for Kyle.

9:12 And it was, yeah. And a treat for Piper. So I'm actually. Just reminding me I need to go and buy new. Buy more food for the Kyle. So how's Kyle going? Oh my God, guys. So last night I was lying in bed minding my own, you know, actually, I was watching. I was watching just. Starting my night. Oh, that is so funny. I was watching Real Housewives of sort, like, singer reunion second. Oh my God. Oh my God, it's so good. I was watching that. And I get this message from Megan. She's like, Oh my God, guys.

9:42 With a photo of Kyle, by the way, a video. A video. Yeah. Just to really hone in on what's going on. Just like, do I need to take this thing to a fucking vet? And Kyle was like literally just like he just not moving, just floating like, and his little legs were down. He's not moving. His gills were kind of moving. Yeah. Not often. Do they need to move often? I don't have no idea. I would assume so because isn't that how they oxygenate? Was like anyway I. Don't know if they're gills or not though.

10:07 Those things I don't know. Oh, no, he doesn't have gills on the side of it. Yeah. Anyway, so I googled because Meg was like, I've tried feeding him. He doesn't even go for the food. He. Kind of just like would open his mouth, but like, didn't get any. Yeah, but that was the only movement I'd get out of him. Yeah, he was just stationary in the middle of the the tank. Like, yeah, the weirdest. How on earth he even does that? Like, how do you even float in the middle of the water? But. Also being he was like still it's not like he was keeping himself there no.

10:37 Anyway, so I googled what do I do if my axolotl doesn't move and doesn't want to eat and it basically came back with the fact that he's constipated. Not gas, he's got gas or he's constipated. So has he had a bowel movement? I have no idea. I wouldn't have a clue. I don't know. It said something about temperature of the water and that too. It sounds like I'm meant to like, care about it and I just put the food in. That's Brody's. If Domain something happened to him or Brody wasn't at home because at the minute Brody's not at home, So would you attempt a replacement?

11:13 He would pick. He would pick it. He would pick it out of out of. Yeah, I literally because I was, because probably looking at another pet soon. You do this to yourself. I know I do this to myself. I know I totally do. Anyway, I was at this like aquariumy lizardy place like getting. Asking every tell everyone what you're getting and we know you're getting them. Like the fact that you even went to ask inquiries? Just want to get the price and stuff and what I'm really looking at if I do this, but my eldest son is obsessed and I mean obsessed obsessed.

11:46 Also he's ASD that obsessed like he this is his thing is frogs. So he wants a pet frog. Well, yeah. So. Oh. God, can you get one or do they need a companion? Oh yeah, you can get one. Sounds like we're getting more than one. Why? Because I'm a fucking idiot. That's. Why? How did someone who convinced you to get more than one? The guy at the shop. Oh, why? What? What's his reasoning behind it? Because because my son loves frogs and that there's all different breeds. Oh, OK. And he said you could keep them all in the same container.

12:19 And The thing is that at the moment there's a special on the bigger enclosure thing that you might as well go the bigger 1. And so in the bigger 1 you can keep everything. So what kind of frog are we talking about? I said to him, I wanna stick to anything Victorian because I want heating. I don't want heat lamps. I don't want, you know, UVB lamps. I don't wanna, I don't wanna manage all that. I don't want hard. I want, you know, stick em in there and. Change the law with them, yeah. Yeah. So we can do anything Victorian.

12:51 So there's certain there's about 10 different types of marsh frogs or. Something that you can do? Marsh frogs. And then there's a they're. The Brownies. There's they're very there's different ones you can get albino ones, you can get brown ones, you can get spotted ones, you can get OK, all sorts of different ones. I. Just think of Marsh Frog and I think of those like brown Toady looking. Yeah, they're kind of like that. But these were cute. Actually, the ones that he had, they're only baby ones.

13:10 They're quite cute. And then but he can also do in this enclosure that he was suggesting was a brown tree frog, which they grow pretty big, so well, reasonable size. So I was like, Oh my God. Where are you going to put the tank? Yeah, I've got to measure up and make sure it fits where I think it's. Going to be OK. Yeah, Where was I going originally? Oh. We took no, you need to go and get food for oh. No, I was looking at like so, well, they're looking at the frog stuff. I was looking. There was a tank full of axolotls and like, you know, being there done that.

13:46 I went to the tank and there was a black 1 like you know, Kyle and I looked at it and I looked at this black Axel and went that's not Kyle. Like I know that's not Kyle. So I'm like I can if I can know that's not. Kyle Oh, you're fucked. Brody would 100% know that's not Kyle. Yeah, like is that? Is that because you've developed a connection with Kyle? No, he's just, he's grown since we got him and he's changed and we've. And there's someone who stares in the eyes of. Their I stare at a lot because I'm really worried it's going to climb out and get me.

14:18 The climbing out would just freak me. Out I make sure that the water level stays like low because that's what the guy said to me he goes just keep the water level low if you're worried about it I eyeball that water level very regularly and make. Sure, you need to make a mark on the top too low. Do not go above this height. Yeah, I do. I'm I'm. Really, really worried about it. That would be my worst fear. Yeah, if we had one. Well, my worst fear is that something will go wrong while I'm on watch.

14:42 Yeah, because that's just. If it happens while he's home, well, then he knows that I've done nothing wrong. Yeah. Whereas if it happened whilst he wasn't home, Oh my God. He'd be like. You didn't, you said it wrong. I you know, I did something wrong. So it's just. Like no, he's constipated. That's not my not my fault. I'll let him know he's constipated. Yeah. Oh God. Yeah, watch this space. Oh, I'm an idiot. At least you get good, good cute dogs and stuff. Whereas I'm stuck with bloody ridiculous out.

15:12 Although Piper's, Piper's in the doghouse a little bit today. So I thought we had the this is classic. I'm talking human toddler, dog, toddler. I thought we had the toilet training down. She hasn't had an accident in days and days always going outside. All good. Three accidents inside today. I didn't even tell tell anyone so it's not like I jinxed. It nice regression there. She must be hitting like the three month mark. The leap I need to look up my doggy. Leap doggy leaps. I'm sure there's leaps in there.

15:43 Anyway, so she's actually just chilling outside at the minute, which is, you know, not the worst thing in the world. She's so poor little pipes. She's gorgeous. All right. Should we get into? Oh, have I done all my shout outs? No, I'm sorry. We also need to thank Amy for commenting on all of our shit. So thank you, Amy. Yeah. Particularly the best over on TikTok. She jumped on there and do that heap there. And thank you to the other 90 people who have now joined us on TikTok. I have a few more friends, but keep it going.

16:12 We are back on TikTok 2 dot crime dot besties. Come join us over there. The parties are happening. Yes, there's a few of us there. Now we're starting to build that back up. So we just need a post to go viral like we did last. Time, but doesn't nothing. No, nothing. TikTok changed kill us. I don't know if you're my friend anymore. I don't know. Thank you to Roo for a case suggestion. Yes, Annie, Elizabeth and her bestie. So she shared our she said she found us recently has been listening to our back catalog and she sent a link to our show to her best friend, which is like literally one of the best things you can do to help us get our show out there.

16:48 So thank you. The best friend will love you. And she's like she said to her bestie, who does this remind you of? So welcome. All the crazy mental people out there like us. Yeah, Join us. Yeah, so and then also, Oh my God, so at work this week, do you tell your workplace is quite small? But does everyone know that you do this podcast?

17:12 Yeah, currently I think so. Well, in the broader sense of my work, definitely not. OK, OK. Yeah, yeah, I have not. I haven't told them I know. So at my work, like the few, you know, the people I talk to all the time, they obviously yes, Yeah, I was. I had my door shut. I had a meeting the other day. I had my office door shut and I finished the meeting, opened the door, and there was a work colleague standing outside my door and she's like, I thought I knew you, I thought. I knew. You. I love it.

17:40 And I was like, oh, God, what have I done now? Yeah. And she's like, I just found out that you've got a podcast and I'm like, oh, who told you? And she's like, I'm not revealing my sources, but then she's gone and told, like, all these people about it. And I'm like, oh, I've had to say to people, oh, my God, I'm so sorry. Like the first 9 episodes, the audio is not very, like, the standard response when people find us. Yeah. So I should probably do a shout out to Portia. Oh, there's a few other work friends like Mel, Lisa.

18:11 I hope you guys enjoy it. Oh, it's just when people win. No listen it gives me the hey BG. It's a total different level. Isn't it? Yeah, it just actually makes me want to vomit. It really does. All right, let's get into today's case. Because this is actually before we get into it, let's do a disclaimer here 100. Please take some self-care in this. If we get into this and this is not the case for you, jump ahead and listen to another episode. We will talk about some pretty stuff. I'm, I'm, I don't know how comfortable you are even talking about some of this stuff.

18:44 I think we may even graze over some of it rather than getting too deep into it because it's not good. So there was a lot of this case that's been suppressed by the courts for that exact reason. So we will be talking about children in this case and pretty horrific stuff. Absolutely. Please take some time to take some. Care of Listen carefully. Like if you, as Meg said, I find, and we've said this in previous podcasts, Yeah, we find the episodes with kids particularly hard. Yeah. And this one's you.

19:13 You can't get worse. So yeah, please, if this isn't for you, come back next week. Yeah, Yeah. I mean we'll reiterate again when we get to it probably that we're about to talk about it again. So, yeah. And we also have you just missed. Timestamps in our show notes. So yeah, if you need to skip ahead, just go and have a look at the next section that you might want to listen to. For sure. Yeah. OK. So what we're discussing today are the they're really commonly known as the Greniff Murders. Greniff family massacre.

19:41 Yeah. So this happened in Greniff, which is in WA. It's about 400 kilometers from Perth and about 24 kilometers. The next sort of biggest town that most people would know is Geraldton. So it's about 24 KS from Geraldton. Not a 15 minute drive. Yeah. So it's it's close enough that that's the nearest city, that's the nearest sort of town where everyone goes to shop and go to school and. It's not a huge place, Gerald, and even it's like, I'd say it's smaller than like in Melbourne terms, it's probably smaller than Geelong.

20:12 Yes, definitely. Has a Kmart but. Yeah, and a target country. Yeah, that look, absolutely. But what I'm saying is Greniff is a hamlet. It's not even a town. And so not many people live there. I couldn't get an accurate number of people who live there when this happened. I think a lot of us are quite transient even in terms of people coming into the area for work. I mean, because you're heading out that way towards, there's mining towns, you know, things like that. You're not far away from that. Especially around the time that this happened, I think that was probably.

20:42 In the in the mining specially kind of stuff. Yeah, So what happened in Greniff was on the 22nd of February 1993, an entire family, a mum, her son and her two daughters were murdered brutally. Oh, absolutely, beyond brutally. We will get into some of the details soon. Yeah. What we do know is that the victims were Karen McKenzie, who was 31 at the time, Daniel, her son, who was 16 at the time, Amara, who was seven, and Katrina, who was five, were all murdered in their home. And it is. First of all, the fact that an entire family is wiped out in one homicidal event is beyond comprehension.

21:36 I mean it is rare for a reason like. It's yeah, that's right. It just doesn't happen. It just doesn't happen. Yeah, I guess we can get into a bit of the background of. Karen, Karen in your life? Yeah, for sure. I think that's the. Best stuff Karen was born her mum and dad her. Her mum's name was Barbara Marchant. Her dad, I could not find out. I couldn't even find his name. No. And I think that there's a reason for that that's not spoken about. We did this because there's. I mean, I don't want to infer something that's wrong here.

22:06 No, we don't. We don't, we don't know. There's stuff that we don't know about her. That and there's bits we do know about her and then there's someone you don't can't name that's a father. Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, it looks, we don't know his name, but yeah, obviously she had a father. Yeah. She also had a sister named Evelyn and two brothers. So they lived in Queensland and that's where, that's where Karen grew up. Yeah. Karen and her sister and her two brothers grew up with her mum, single mum.

22:36 Yeah, most of most of her upbringing, yeah. What we do know is that Karen was sexually assaulted by. All we know is that it was by a family member. That's all that's out there in the press. And so was her sister. And as a result of that, they really did form. I mean, I guess sisters generally, like, often will have a really close bond. But I think the trauma that they endured as young girls, like everyone is older than than Karen, but they oh, sorry, younger than Karen. Sorry, younger than Karen.

23:07 But they were like absolutely bonded by this. Yeah, really that there was like trauma bond or whatever you want to call it. It really brought them very close and very tight knit. The two of them grew up with that as their common thing, that they both knew about each other. They, they did talk about between themselves, but also it just meant that they had this beyond normal bond. I think in that sense that they, that they looked out for each other. They, they took care of each other knowing that's what had happened to each of them.

23:35 So yeah, yeah, tragic in that sense. But at the same time, the the thing that came out of it, I guess that silver lining to this was this incredible relationship that she had with her sister. Arch a type bond. Yeah, such a type bond. The way that Evelyn speaks of her sister even to this day, it's it's heartbreaking because of what happened to her. But it's also like, you absolutely get just how much they were. They were out there for each other. They backed each other 100% all of the time. Yeah.

24:03 When Karen was 13 years of age, she fell pregnant. Oh, I. Thought she was. 15-O she no, she must have been 14 when she fell pregnant, 15 when she gave birth. Yeah, right. Sorry. See details. Normally I'm all over this shit. So she fell pregnant, and I mean teenage pregnancy it. Can go very much all over whichever direction it can, you know. That's it. It did 'cause rift in their family in that her mum didn't think it was OK for her to be pregnant at that age. And I think, I don't know if she was kicked out of the house or whether she decided to leave, but she needed to get out of the family home and she did that.

24:48 Now, I do not know how a girl of 14 slash 15 could have the wherewithal to establish a home for herself and her unborn or newly born child without the support of the father because he had no involvement in this whatsoever aside from being a sperm donor. And she did her best. Yeah. For two years, yeah. And then when Daniel was 2. So Daniel was born when he was two years of age, she actually just couldn't do it anymore. She was. She had no money. She had no support. She was at the end of her tether.

25:28 When I say she had no support, she still had contact with her mum and her sister and her brothers. Yeah, but she was still living on her own. Yeah. With a young like I just think back to me with a 2 year old and I was 30. Something yeah, I know. And that was sort of fucking hard. I mean, if a teenage parent is going to make it, I mean, it's really gonna be somewhere where they're very highly supported. And I think personally, I think inside the, you know, a nuclear family and home with, you know, grandparents support at that age.

25:57 I mean, 'cause she better, you know, say go to school or work or whatever, you need childcare, you need support. And so good on her for giving it a go. And I mean, the fact that she made it two years, I mean, look, it would have been tough, I'm sure. And so I'm sure there's stuff that went on. I am certain of that because she was fucking 15. So I mean, as much as, like, it was kind of inevitable, I think that this is where it ended up because it wasn't. Yeah, just say she had support, but not enough.

26:24 Like, in that sense, not for 15 years. I mean, at the time, it could have been her being, you know, stubborn, all these sorts of things, saying I'm not gonna live with you, I'm gonna do this on my own. We don't know what the decision was there of why that came about. But at the end of the day, a 15 year old raising a child, I mean, it's a, it's a baby lip raising a baby and so many for so many reasons that she needed more support. So I mean, good on her for recognising that and, you know, fixing the situation for her son and she did the best thing she could for her son at that time.

26:51 So I mean. So what she asked was that her mum, Barbara, took custody of Daniel and ended up raising, so raising him in her family home. So Barbara and then Evelyn Daniels auntie was also part of that because she was a little bit younger than Karen. Yeah. And was grew up basically almost being a second mother to him. Yeah. And she said that, you know, she was so emotionally invested in him because, I mean, I feel like an auntie's love. Yeah, he's like almost I don't know what a grandparents love is like because I'm not obviously not a grandparent look old nuts, but fuck off.

27:32 I'm not the old one here. But I feel I feel with my nieces and my nephews an absolutely UN like an just an absolute love for them. Yep. Yeah. And I don't need to parent them. No, I just get to have like all the good people have a good shit. I don't know, I literally I get the. Yeah, and it's awesome. I love being an auntie. So I hope that that was the experience Evelyn got with Daniel Life. I feel like it was from the way she's spoken about it. Yeah, because I think Barbara really took on the mothering sort of side.

28:09 Yeah, she lovingly described Daniel as a Rascal. A rat bag. Yeah, I mean, and from all accounts, he was literally that. Like he was cheeky and got into trouble, but heart a really good kid, you know, a really. Lovely kid. Like, he really cared for the things he cared about. Yeah. Didn't like school. No, didn't really want to go to school. Yeah. So as he was approaching his 16th birthday, he decided that he wanted to go and live with his mum. So in the meantime, Karen had actually moved to Perth and like, over to.

28:42 She actually moved to Geraldton originally. Yeah. And she met a man by the name of. Alan. Alan. Well, that's his surname. Yeah, and they had two daughters. So they had Amara and Katrina. Yeah. And their relationship broke down, I think when Katrina was about two years of age. Something like that. Yeah. He still had involvement in the girls lives. It wasn't like he never saw them. But Karen became their primary carer. Yeah. So in order to establish herself, and I think fucking hats off to this woman because she'd had childhood abuse, she'd had shit relationships.

29:21 I think her relationship with this Ellen bloke was not terrible. Yeah, but it obviously ended. Yeah. So you know, she's then left on her own again with two young girls and she decided to go and purchase whatever she could buy. And that is what led her to Granith. Because it is literally in the middle of nowhere. Last stop Larimer kind of vibes. Maybe not quite that. Quiet. Not quite. But but what I'm saying is real estate was cheap out there. Yeah, she paid 40 grand for this weather board house that was very rundown, needed work like it was lottery.

29:55 It was livable, but it was not. Well, yeah, borderline. Borderline. Livable. Like, I think, I think she had massive plans for this house. Yeah, but it it was basically when she bought it, it was as is. Yeah. So I'm talking there was junk in the yard. There's the shed was full of shit. Yeah. It was quite rundown. Yeah. I mean, it had running water and it had a roof. You know, I think it was. It needed a lot of work, but it was. She but she and she had this idea of what she wanted to do and she was going to make it a home for her and her kids.

30:26 And that's what you know, she had this. I really like respect that. Oh sane. She was trying to make a go of it. Mm hmm. In amongst all that though, of like making a go of it with her family work. So at this point she's living with her two kids in the home and two daughters in Greta. Yep. And Daniel is living over in Queensland with his grandma, but he decides he wants to go over and live with his mum, which Karen was ecstatic about. This was huge. You have all the kids under 1 roof. Was there room for them all?

30:53 Fuck yeah. We'll make room. Like, you know, that's the. Girls can share we'll you know she lived out she. Slept out on the living room floor, you know, kind of stuff on a mattress. She was like, yeah, yes, come and live with us. So, you know, as much as all this was and she was, she was being a really great mum and, and people at the school and everything, Yeah, acknowledged that doing all those right things. But she did have a foot in slightly into another world, which was also her comfort zone, I think too, Yeah, of a certain group of people and people who dabbled in drugs, you know, probably more so than she did on the regular.

31:26 But she certainly was sort of on what, you know, 1 foot definitely with being a mum and 1 foot in this scene of like, you know, partying and drugs and stuff and alcohol. So. But I mean, in that area, that's kind of who you mean. What? But also what the? Fuck else do you do? What else do you do? How do you socialize? I guess So what? What ended up happening was for Daniel's 16th birthday, he asked Barbara for a bus ticket. Yeah, to go for bus in Queensland over to Geraldton, which is literally a three day trip.

31:57 Yeah, it's massive. It's a huge. And there's like, and you see fuck all on that trip. Yeah, it's like red pretty much the whole way home. I mean, that's off to him for doing that. Like I just think I, I put myself in his shoes and I'm like, imagine being on that. Bus like the excitement of that area. Yeah, I mean, this is in the 1990s, Ninety three, I think end of 1992. He went there 'cause he got there before. Christmas. Yes, that's right. And he enrolled himself into the high school at Geraldton.

32:25 Now, he hadn't been going to school in Queensland. No, I think he wanted a fresh start. He wanted to try again. He. Was like, I'm gonna want to finish year 12 and make a go of it. That was his whole play. He had this. I think it's almost like Karen's dream, like, was infectious to me. Like, if mom's gonna make a go of it over there, I want to be there, too. And I want to make a go of it as well. If she thinks she can do it there, I will, too. Yeah. Which is so beautiful for a family. I love it. I love that.

32:47 Yeah. So yeah, he rolled it and rolled himself in school and had. And he was attending in those early days of going back to the school year starting. Yeah. He'd started at the local, local high school and with intentions of making something not he was never going to go, you know, do brilliant things like in terms of his what he was going to what a task score or into score, whatever. It's whatever it was then, yeah, you know, but he was going to make a go of it and get get the certificate he needed, do the next thing in life.

33:12 So good on him. Yeah, he was trying to make. Himself together again, just like his Mama. Probably so, but as you said, I think another like maybe a benefit of Daniel coming over for Karen was the fact that he was in the home. He was, he was a responsible boy. Like he, Karen, felt very comfortable leaving his sisters in his care. And although he hadn't been there that long, he was looking after them every now and again for Karen. So he was helping out when she worked and did, like, I think she was doing like little odd jobs and just whatever came up she would do.

33:51 Yeah. And he would help out with the girls, pick them up, bring them home on the bus, pick them up from school. I mean, bring them home on the bus. And on this particular night, so the night, the Friday night before the murders took place, Karen was invited to a friend's place, I think it was in Geraldton. Yeah. And the IT was a house party. Well, they like to call it a gathering instead of a. Party. Oh, sorry, sorry, A Gav. Because it wasn't. It wasn't like a huge thing. It was a smaller group of people.

34:23 It was, yeah. It wasn't a raving night, although at the same time shouldn't get home until 5:00 AM. See, this is what I'm saying like 5:00 AM to me. I'm like, Oh my God, the thought of nothing. Whatever happens after midnight, people. Nope. Not that anything happened this night particularly, but like, yeah, but she didn't yeah, she was, she was a stayer at the at this do this gathering. So. I think she was a stayer because she'd partaken. In a well, this is the thing what what do you I mean, we I've always had that opinion of like people that stay out that late at night.

34:51 You clearly aren't just drinking alcohol. Just stay that late, no? Because if you were drinking alcohol, you would have been passed out somewhere. Yeah, probably. So we know she'd partaken in some drug taking. Now, from everything I've read and heard, she was a recreational drug user. It wasn't something that she did all the time. Whether she was addicted or not, I I can't comment to that. But it was, yeah, something she partook in and she did on this particular night. And alcohol. Many other people at this gathering.

35:26 I think everyone else at the gathering, it came to the end of the night and there were, you know, several people still left at 5:00 in the morning. Yeah. And somebody offered to give her a lift home. Now, earlier in the evening the night before, I guess she'd actually had a really heated disagreement with this person. No one can like really remember what it was over, but there was a a fairly rowdy. Disagreement. Yeah, I think maybe more than a disagreement, would you say? Like, I think they were yelling at each other.

36:03 I think they've got quite heated. But by the time 5:00 rolled around and and Karen was ready to go home, she was happy to go home with this guy. So this is a man by the name of Bill. Well, he made the statement that he doesn't like to stay at a party that is, or gathering a gab, OK, That where there's where's where people are getting angry and stuff and there's so, you know. But he was. Partaking. A nap. OK, yeah. So he was ready to go. So they both left together, OK. And they were friends. They had.

36:34 They hung out. Molly Oh, many times. Before he'd been to the house many times. Yeah. He was a friend of hers. Yeah. Yeah. So he drove her home and now she lived, as you said, in Greniff. She lived on a really remote Rd. Well, even in the remote. Road. It was off of that like so. The address itself was 16 Georgina Road. Yeah, but to get to the access of this house you have to go down a side Rd., not Georgina Road to get to her property. Yeah. It was like, it was like essentially a really long driveway.

37:06 Yeah. Essentially to get to her house. Yeah. And the. Only people that have been there. Knew where it was because from Georgina Rd. yeah, you can't see a dwelling because it's kind of over the back of like a hump yeah. And you can see that in the photos, like you can say, Oh yeah, of course, nobody would be able to see that house from the road. Yes, so and he has gone there now. Neighbors report seeing a car come at early in the morning now. 5:00 AM ish. Yep, got there. There's a lot of farmland around and so farmers were up tending to their, I don't know, the.

37:36 Start of their day. Yeah, they're, I don't know, cows, cows and so. Sheep because he was a farm hand. He was a guy. Hand. So he was probably heading out to Sheesham Shees. Oh, Jesus. You've only had 110 guys, Just letting you know, we're still recording in the evenings, but from next week we're going back to recording during the day. So then we know. Well, we'll be whining more afterwards. Yeah, afterwards.

38:02 So we won't be slurring our words from next week. Go on. Shear some sheep. Well done. You got it. Yeah. So the farmers attest to the fact that they saw a car drop Karen off. Yeah. And then? Well, he was there about 11 AM 11 AM. He was seen exiting the property. Yeah. So, OK, so he's been there, operated it is. So he's been in her house then for six hours, 6, a bit under 6 hours because I think they got home at like 530 something and then he's left at 11. OK. What happened in that 5 1/2 hours? We don't know.

38:40 We actually don't know, no. The day goes on. Nothing to note, really. Nothing we like. Yeah, yeah, everyone's fine. Everyone's OK. Yeah. The day goes on. It all goes as it does. It's Saturday, so the kids don't have school. No one needs to be up early to be fairing people anywhere. And the day goes on as it does. Yeah. Then that night, the girls go to bed at their normal time. Everything's great. Everything's fine and dandy. Yeah. Karen, at some point during the night also goes to bed. As you mentioned before, she was sleeping in the lounge room so that Daniel could have his own space in a, a room where he can close the door, which is a very important for a teenager.

39:22 Yeah. And then Daniel, though, being 16 years of age at the time, he was up all night sleeping all day, especially on a Saturday night, Like he typical teenager, typical teenager, watching movies, fucking, oh, who knows, fucking around on, I don't know, who knows, watching TV. Were computers even nothing then? No 90. 3 Not really. No 93, no, I don't think out there you would have had a computer, would you? Not with Internet access, that's for sure. Anyway, whatever he was doing, whatever teenagers in 1993 did until 3:00 in the morning.

39:58 Now he notes that. Well, this is this is all. Now from here on, this is what we think happened. Yeah. And it's. I think it's fair to say that it's pretty accurate, I think. I think the way things have gone about, there's not much dispute about this. No. Daniel sees a car, headlights of a car, Yeah. Coming up their driveway. And he thinks, probably thinks to himself, who the? Clock in the morning the. Fuck. Is that? Has someone taken the wrong turn somewhere? Like, Mum's asleep. It's not like someone's coming for her.

40:35 Weird. So he walks out the front of the house as this car's approaching the home. Now, I would assume the headlights of this car are on, which is blinding at 3:00 in the morning in the middle of nowhere. You know, it's not like there's ambient light anywhere. Somebody gets out of the car. Yeah, and approaches him and bludgeons him to death. With an axe. Yeah. Yeah, like brutally. So brutally that his face is unrecognizable. Yeah, OK. The actual injuries from him have been suppressed. All we know is that it was severe and couldn't be.

41:20 He couldn't be identified from his face. Yeah. All right, so I think, I think we now should we now go to the next. Yeah, well, So what happened that? Well, So what happened that night? I guess. Yeah. OK. This person then entered the house and found Karen asleep. In the land on a mattress. On a mattress and approaches her and does the same thing to her, hits her with this axe brutally to the point where she is, you know, convulsing from the this attack. She is just he again and again again hitting her until she has stops, stops moving and completely is absolutely like continues to even hit her once she is dead to ensure she is dead.

42:06 It's bad. It's so so. Breezied and brutal. Yeah, we now know that this person was. Then he went rummaging through the house. We know that this was him looking for drugs, knowing that Karen was a drug user when hunting for drugs, but couldn't find anything of that sort. So we now get to some awful stuff. So if you want to tune out now, you can tune out now. I mean this is awful as it. Is just the point. The thought that it can get worse is really full on. Yeah, what he does find in a drawer is some cream, some sorbolene, and he takes that with him back into the lounge room.

42:43 He repositions Karen onto her stomach and onto her all fours. And so he uses the couch as a prop to kind of keep her up on all fours. Now we're talking a deceased corpse. Yeah. That he's positioning in such a manner. Yeah. Go on. Uses the sobel and cream that he has found to then rape her dead body, which is sort of my just horrific at this point. Obviously there's still the two young girls in the in the house. He then I think, thankfully they didn't wake up. This is the thing I think absolutely.

43:23 I think I thankfully neither of them woke up to any of this. That he went in first into Amara's room, the seven-year old, and again did the exact same thing to her and then moved on from her into young Katrina's room, the five year old and again brutally murdered her with the axe as well. He has then left with the axe and the cream that he used and gone back to the car, exited the same and left. I think it's also, I think we need to mention, yeah, we know that Amara's deceased body was also sexually assaulted.

44:02 I think we just need to say that for completeness because and also to understand. I mean, this is brutal to the NTH degree anyway, but the depravity of this, She was seven years of age. I can't even, we don't know the extent of it. I think honestly, thank God we don't know because. We know more about Karen and her yeah death because she was an was an adult anything to do with the kids underage was suppressed completely so but we can we can only we're making we can make assumptions based on the charges that this person later received that we know what.

44:43 Potentially happened, yeah. Yeah, but it's just horrific that even. Yeah, just absolutely disgusting. Yeah. So this person's left the scene. That's that. The following day. So there's the same morning. Yeah. The same morning. Sorry. Midday of of that Sunday. Yeah. So 3:00 AM is when this all occurred. Midday of that same day on the Sunday, Two friends of Karen's, I'm gonna get their names, Ron, Ron and Dina were in the car. They were driving to Karen's because they were going there to help her fix some things for the house that she was planning on with fixing up this place and everything.

45:22 And Ron had really kindly offered to help her out and do a few odd jobs and things to fix up some stuff. I think Ron was quite handy. Yeah. And so and Karen just needed some help, you know, doing the things that you're not quite sure how to do yourself. Well I just sent a meme to my very good friend recently and said no I don't need a husband, my best friend has one. Thanks Matt. Like there. Are just some things that I don't know you need 2. People help or you need, you need someone. Who knows what?

45:54 They're doing, yes. No, that's hard anyway. Yes, all good. So yeah, hey, they're on their way over to help out, so which is brilliant. So but they pull up in the driveway and they see laying in the driveway. Well, they assumed was Daniel because. And they were like, oh, he's 16, what is he doing? Yeah. Mind you. Mind you, he's 16 years old. He's 6 foot. Tall. Yeah, he was very tall. Very well built, like quite. Yeah, solidly. So I think he'd be visually, as in his body shape would be instantly recognisable.

46:26 Yeah, yeah. Although so he has, this guy's only met Daniel a couple of times. I mean he's only been in this in the sub, in the in the state. Not even three months. Yeah, very. I think he met him maybe two or three times briefly at moments, you know, So he was approaching, he saw him laying on the road and was like, oh, what's Daniel doing kind of thing. Got out of the car and as he took a couple of steps, he realised that Daniel wasn't playing a joke or anything or doing anything silly. He realized he was like, I don't even actually know if it's Daniel.

46:58 It just it was unrecognizable to him, but clearly not OK. And so he's yelling at his wife Dana to get back in the car because he was really petrified of her saying what he had just seen. No one else should have to say it kind of thing. He's telling her to get back in the car and yelling out to Karen in the house to see if he could get a response because he's not knowing what what has gone on here. No response. Obviously he gets. His the dog was barking. The dog was barking going back of the house, Yeah.

47:25 And so he's like, something's going on here. They weren't sure if there's someone still in the house perpetrating more or what the goal is, is this an active thing or what? So his wife is yelling at let's, we need to call the police. Like this isn't OK. Now this is 1993 mobile phones. No, Also rural area. There is hundreds of metres between houses. So they get in the car and they drive back down the driveway and head for the and the neighbors. They go to two separate houses which are fairly far away from each other towards town just and they jump out of the car and run into both these houses and no one is home.

47:58 They eventually get to this museum where they finally run inside this business and they call from there, say can we use the phone, we need to call the police. They finally call the police and they tell them about Daniel because that's all they know at this point that this that will let you know that there's this body out on the road and it's brutally, brutally been attacked. It's bad. I don't. There's three other people in this family and I don't know where they are. Called out to them. Yeah, they're not.

48:23 Not answering. So the cops are onto this immediately. They dispatch A-Team. Now I have to say this, this case, I mean, we have done plenty of cases where cops have fucked. Up our investigation. I've actually got that written in my notes. I want to praise the Western Australian police, the Geraldton police particularly, and then also the Perth CBD police that came into this. 100. Holy cow, did they do everything right? Everything, everything. So they immediately get on the scene and they've immediately contacted bigger cops from from Perth to come up as well because it's, it's a 3-4 hour drive from Perth to where they are.

49:01 Yeah. So I mean, I've done the drive. It's not an easy drive either. So they've got to get, you know, detectives and stuff up there from Perth. But they've but and. Equipment like they needed, they knew they needed forensics, they needed, you know, there was, it wasn't just sending up a cop car, no sending up. They need to get all the gear. And get everyone together because. The thing is. But The thing is that the cops from Geraldton was so good, they immediately knew they're dealing with an outdoor scene, which is hard to preserve in the best of times.

49:26 And we're talking heavier heat. And wind now in that outdoor scene 100% and they preserved as best they possibly could, tire marks, foot, foot marks, everything outdoors as much as they could. That was their first priority. Although I have to say when they got there, obviously they've got to clear the house and make sure there's no perpetrator in the house, all those sorts of things, but. Which they did. They did do so, which I'll go to the boat. Yeah, talked. About that in a SEC, yeah. But. Yeah.

49:52 So when they arrived, they obviously went into the house and entered in and discovered unfortunately poor Karen deceased in the living room. I mean, these police officers have they saw the worst of the worst this day. This is this is damaging to them for life now as well. They've all seen things they shouldn't have to say. They've all got kids potentially of, you know, similar ages to between a 16 year old and the young girls, five and seven. You can't tell me that majority of those cops don't have kids.

50:20 They know those. Ages, you know, actually some of them are on record having said. That Yeah. So they've gone in. They've found, unfortunately, as they've, you know, clear the house, they find the two young girls as well dead in their beds, just absolutely horrific. But they get to work immediately of the inside and the outside. First the outside, as I said, they they got onto that real quick Inside. They again preserve things where they can until the big cops arrive. Such an amazing job. They actually did seven days worth of a grid search of the external area of the house from like a couple 100 meters away looking for weapons or anything they could find.

51:00 Any of notes like anything at all Yeah, just amazing police. Oh incredible and old fat like good old fashioned police work like the boots on the ground. Yeah. Doing what they needed to do, going through a process. Yeah. And really hitting the mark like they they I couldn't agree with you more. They were exceptional. So I guess by the time the Perth branch sort of came up and started their processes, yeah, more and more things were becoming evident. So we've got the forensics team there who were looking for any evidence, any forensic evidence that they could find.

51:39 Now part of that was, I mean we're talking 1993 as you mentioned, this is before DNA was really at it's like cutting. Edge only a little bit. It seems to like to do. But they knew what they needed to do to at least collect what they needed to collect and that kind of thing. So what they did was they they've removed the bodies from the scene and taken them to Perth for autopsy. Yeah, during this process, during the autopsies, especially of Karen and then I assume tomorrow as well. But what they found on her body was some sort of like greasy Marks and prints.

52:18 And in in the vaginal area as well, they found those. That's it. And so they are looking then the, the, the coroner or the, the, the forensic pathologist who was performing the autopsy was like, well, what is this greasy substance? We need to figure out what that is that might help. Yeah. So what they've done is they've taken a sample of, of what they found and they're like basically in communications with all of the forensics team who are up at up on site still at the house. And they are that they're looking for whatever they're looking for.

52:56 So what the pathologist thinks is that what they found is something like a moisturizer, A sorbolene, something like that. They test what they found in Karen's vaginal cavity and they determine that. So they have like 80 or something reference samples in the laboratory of different creams, different things that it could be. They ran that sample against every one of those 80 things and it didn't peak. They then said to the forensics team her up at her house, we're kind of looking for something like some kind of cream, some kind of maybe moisturizer, sorboline.

53:35 We're not really sure we need to find that so we can test it against what we found and what the forensics team were doing was incredible work. So first of all, they did find on a wall panel which was near the door. So the inference is that the perpetrator had actually placed their hand against this wall as they were either opening or shutting a door well. They had actually placed their, their, their, their palm down. That actually what it was, was a print of what what you call writers palm. So it's when you think about when you're writing what part of your hand touches the page, they call that a that that's a palm print.

54:14 It's still, it's part of your palm, but it's actually that side view basically of your hand that. Yeah, that that's, it wasn't like a, a full hand. Yeah. So it's even more different. They do actually, when they fingerprint you, if you're ever arrested, they do fingerprint that part of your hand now as well 'cause it's. But back in the day, they didn't. No, no, no. OK. But yeah, that was actually made it a little bit more difficult because it was just that side of the palm, not a full palm print.

54:39 But again, to the credit of those forensic offices, yeah, they cut that bit of wall out. Yeah. And sent it to the laboratory for preservation, if nothing else. Yeah. And then further testing. Yeah, they also found when they they used a blue light and went through the house, this was a few days later. And what they actually also found was some greasy finger marks on the door. Yeah. And this time it was actually the the tips of, of fingers. Yeah. Right. So I'm talking the top tips of fingers, like somebody's sort of pushed the door shut with their fingertips.

55:11 Yeah. Right. Again, not something that is usually taken in a fingerprint. Yeah, when you're fingerprinting in a potential suspect. Yeah. Again, they've removed that entire door, yeah, and sent it down to the laboratory for preservation and potential further testing. And the the significant. God, they did. Oh. This is it because the significance of this is like, people can come and go in your house all the day, all day long, and, you know, put fingerprints everywhere. Yeah, there could be fingerprints in that House of all sorts of people who did not murder these people.

55:42 That's right. So but the significance of the fact that these are fingerprints in a greasy substance, if they can prove that that greasy substance is the same greasy substance they can find on the bodies that places that person in this scene at that time. This isn't someone who has just been over for a cuppa, you know, and close the door and wash, you know, wash their hands with some soapy stuff and then close the door with a greasy substance. You know, this is then the exact same stuff on them when they've pushed the door or whatever.

56:16 That's right. As they have, unfortunately, also using the perpetration of their acts on Karen and little girls. So yeah, there's this is really significant that if they can prove either those these two things connect up, they've got the person in some sort of fingerprint potentially. That's it. Yeah. So I guess the police are then right. Where do we start? We start with the father of those two girls. So the reason being they'd split up not that long before, really. I mean, it was a few years, but it was.

56:52 They still had contact. Yeah. And so, you know, I guess that's a very likely place to start. But what he found was that he was actually water trapped. Yeah. Up further north in WA he was working I think in the mines. Was he? I think so. Something like that. But he was literally waterlogged where he was. He wanted to get back to, yeah, wherever he lived at the time, but he actually couldn't even get home because he was. I think he had a new partner himself and all those sorts of things that he was like.

57:22 Yeah, I need to get home. So he he's he had power. Guy was watertight, am I right? So. So it wasn't him. Yeah. Apparently the police put together a list of 70 potential suspects. Yeah. Within a couple of days. Yeah. So again, was attesting to their amazing. This is it. They did not let any rock go unturned. No, it was. There was also another guy she had just recently split up from and a boat by the name of Sean Easto, I think. Sean. Yep, Yep. So he was checked off and you know, he had a alibi so he wasn't around.

57:56 But he, like they literally had hardly broken up just before, just before Valentine's Day. Was literally on Valentine's Day. So she broke up with him. This was an interesting part of the story. She sent him flowers. Yeah, with a breakup note. But didn't name herself. No, he knew who. I mean, he knew of. Course, but yeah, and all she said was bye on it. He. Went bye the message. Was real weird, like it was a real like poem but. Not, not. It was weird. But anyway, she broke up with him. It's like Carrie Big broke up with me on a poster note.

58:23 But yeah, broke up with me on a poster note. Yeah, a bit like that. Yeah. At least she sent him flowers, I guess. Quite odd, Quite, quite odd. But anyway, yes. So they'd broken up. He had again. He had an alibi. Yeah, yeah. So the police are like, OK, let's think about other known people to Karen. Yeah. And they found out through talking to friends and whatever that she'd been at this party on the Friday night. Yeah. So they interviewed everybody at the party. They found out about the fight that Graham, oh sorry, that Bill and Karen had had.

58:57 Yeah, they fingerprinted everyone at the party. This is the thing that everyone, what an interesting thing that came out of this was that everyone in the town and Geraldton and in like broader were mortified by what had gone on here. This was not normal at all. What had occurred. People were really, really beside themselves about what had occurred. Yeah, police were very adamant that this was targeted because how else would you find her property? This was, you know, so people they were sort of putting out there to the general public of like, you don't have it.

59:26 There's no concern for general people, you know, like that there's some maniac around were freaked out. I would definitely be, I mean no matter of that, but police were very convinced that this was someone she knew and targeted like so. It wasn't like there was some axe wielding maniac going. Around, I mean they were doing. This but it wasn't maniac, but but targeting random. That's right. So there was that side of it, but the general community were just so mortified that people that were being interviewed were like, take my fingerprints, you know, no one was backing away from that.

59:56 Everyone was very much like, take my fingerprints and what else can we do to help you? People were ringing in with tips like that. I've seen, I saw Karen last week talking to a guy who was a fisherman. He'd be out now on a boat. But you can get in touch with him. I know she spoke with him. You know, like they, they tracked down. That's why they ended up with quite a long list because people were so forthcoming with wanting to help the investigation. So they sort of say like, you know, like the drug community around Geraldton, like, you know, those kind of the same sort of ilk of what Karen was hanging out with.

1:00:27 We're literally coming and going. I don't care. You can tell me I'm in trouble for taking ecstasy or taking whatever at this party. I'll tell you about it as long as we can get to a point where we find who did this, You know, so I, I was really incredible how the people just really rallied. Yeah. To try and help this investigation. Yeah, because everyone was like, this is fucked up. Yeah, I mean, it's so fucked up and fucked up, Yeah. So we're at the point now where the police are like, OK, let's start eliminating people.

1:00:57 Yeah. And they come across Bill, and so will you. Should we trick Bill Mitchell? Yeah, so, well, should we start with the fact that randomly the police get a phone call from who? The guy who happened to be the host of the party where Karen went? Yep. So this guy rings up and he goes, I've just got home from being out for the day and I've been broken into in my house and there's blood like all through my house. Like trail of blood through my house. Now, at this point, the police had been there and interviewed him, Yeah.

1:01:31 He'd already like he's Yeah, he's absolutely. Like we know he's not even well for as far as the investigation had got at that point, he was not a suspect. No, that's right. So he's, yeah, ringing, saying, like, I've been broken into. This is, like, bad. The cops are, like, on it. They're, like, out there, like, let's get this checked out. And they rock up and find a pretty gruesome scene. Yeah, There's blood trailed throughout this house. They do find on the kitchen table a set of keys and a wallet.

1:01:56 And inside the wallet is ID to Bill. Bill Mitchell now they know who this Bill Mitchell is in that they have interviewed him also in relation to the fact that he was at this party and he was the last one who saw Karen live because they know that he was on a driver home, all these things. And they're like, holy shit, like now he's been murdered. Like it was that kind of level of blood that could Bill have, you know, been murdered here. What the hell? So they're they're checking they're like, what that what's going on?

1:02:21 And all of a sudden, stumbling through the back door, yelling and everything, comes Phil Mitchell. Naked. Naked. In a blood soaked towel, yeah, but blood soaked like. Blood soaked around his waist and he's it tells this story of that he had rocked up to his mate's place, knocked on the door to see him. And as he's done that, three guys have come out of nowhere and attacked him and said to him, we know that the host of the party was the person who murdered Karen. Tell us where he is. Tell us where he is.

1:02:56 And he's like, I don't know where he is. Like, you know, I don't know where he is. So to try and get him to talk, these guys have pulled out a filleting knife and tried to chop his Dick off. And that's why he's bleeding so extensively. They bailed this guy up and get him to the hospital. Like, it's bad. It's real bad. But the cops are like, no sound right? This does not sound. Sound really weird. So they put a fair bit of pressure on him in this situation of, like, going tell us more, tell us what really what Like what, what actually happened.

1:03:28 Eventually when they're at the hospital and everything's a bit more calmer and things have come down being treated. Yeah. He admits to the fact that he made-up the story. OK no shit, but he still chopped your Dick off like. What's going on here? Not did he? Well, not fully, no, because they managed to re establish. Thank God. Oh well. Well, really. No, no being sarcastic. I hope so. He should have chopped his fucking Dick off. That yeah, for, for him anyway, he he tells them that basically what he was trying to do by chopping his Dick off was trying to commit suicide for personal reasons.

1:04:03 To which the cops are like OK mate this is all a bit not right. Do you want to actually tell us what's going on? Yeah, but that's what they got out of him from the day. Next thing they get is a phone call from a caravan park in Geraldton and the police get this phone call saying, look, just because of what's happened in Greniff, I really, we really feel that you need to be notified of this. It just is weird and could be connected. Maybe maybe we have a caravan here that the cleaner has just gone to to go and clean and it is covered in blood and semen.

1:04:42 A porno magazine which has been shredded with a razor like weird shit. Who was renting that caravan? Oh, you tell me, Was it? Was it Bill? Bill Mitchell. No shit. Now the cops decide to just keep this little nugget of information to themselves at this point, because obviously this is an investigation. They need to be a little bit cagey on some bits. But also, yeah, it's I sort of know what. What does this even relate? What does is. There a relation and to be fair, they're good police officers, so they're not assuming anything, not assume nothing, but check everything, right?

1:05:19 So, yeah, so they've got this bit of information as well now about this caravan park, which they like. I don't know what connection that he has, but So what? I think they're sort of, the cops have sort of put together that, yeah, he's gone to this caravan park for whatever reason, he's chopped his Dick off there. Ah, that's where that sort of started. And then he's made his way somehow 15 minutes down the road to Granuff, to this guy's house, which I think, oh, maybe he was living in Geraldton, was the party host in Geraldton?

1:05:46 Yeah, maybe it was. OK, so he wasn't that far the actual. I don't think it was. Far well, he finally kept travelling. OK. Oh, in fact, in fact, it was only a couple of 100 metres. It wasn't. It literally was not far. So with his Dick tough chopped off, he's made his way from the caravan park to his the party host's house. And that's where this is all taking place. So what a weird fucking day. Anyway, that's gone on. No worries. We get a bit further on. No worries. The cops are just kind of hanging on to that information that, yeah, keeping him very much on their radar, but not but not ruling out other things could be at play here.

1:06:21 So the next bit that happens is more of the forensic stuff starts coming through. I think first it's the there's a bit of stuff with, that's right, the fingerprinting. Yeah, they needed to get people re fingerprinted because this is when they discover that it's only fingertips, it's not fingerprints and a full print. Yeah, they need to reprint everyone by this. Stage, I think they'd fingerprinted something like 68, yeah, something like that. They were up to big numbers, but they needed to fingerprint everyone again to get tips of the fingertips.

1:06:54 So in there's that routine happens, they go around to Bill Mitchell's house to go, it's your turn today. Sorry, mate, but we need to re fingerprint you, which he was like, yeah, sure, no, no problem with the world. So they're re fingerprinting him. And as they're doing this, he says we I just don't even understand why he even says this. He goes, I'm really surprised that you're actually still investigating this. So I thought this was all wrapped up and the police, like, were like, oh mate, like, oh, what made you think that?

1:07:24 Like, Oh well, I heard, I've read in the newspaper that there'd been an incident at a caravan park and you'd got your guy. And they're like. What now? The cops knew that that that was not public knowledge. That that's exactly right. No one knew. About that, other than the caravan park owner, you. Know who hadn't? Who hadn't disclosed it? Hadn't who knew not to disclose it. The cops had shut that down. That was that was not information out in the public. They're like and this was like a day after that had been discovered.

1:07:55 Too. Yeah. So they're like, you're like naming yourself, Yeah. Because you can putting yourself in it, you fucking idiot. I mean, he was. Just so following that, two major things happen. One, his fingerprints match fingertips. Fingertips. Yeah. Fingertips, they match, which they're like bingo. OK, But still we know Bill Mitchell has been in that house multiple times not you know he was in that he was definitely there the night prior. That's right, sort of things that doesn't allow him as. Being allowed to be there.

1:08:29 Allowed to be there, so his. Fingerprints in the house? Not necessarily a smoking gun, no. But what they next find is that the greasy stuff that was on that made those fingerprints matches the stuff found on the swabs from Karen and her daughter, which then puts him there for the scene of the murders. That's right. So we've got his fingerprints in the greasy sorbolene that was used to penetrate Karen and potentially Amara. Yeah. So they've got their guy. Yeah, It's pretty wrapped up. Yeah, they eventually they actually trail him for a bit longer still just to see if they can get more, more on him because.

1:09:15 Obviously you don't want that long though. You know. Day or two, a couple. Of days, I think it was. Yeah. At this point we're like 5 weeks from the murders. It took about 5 weeks before they arrested. If you think about the amount of work that went into those five weeks, like it's not like they were resting on their laurels. They were investigating this so thoroughly. Oh, this is it. And that's what they didn't just sort of just go, oh, we've got him Bang, we're going to go arrest him. Yeah. Because I mean, at the end of the day, you do want to have all your TS crossed and I's dotted.

1:09:41 Like, I mean, they don't want to fuck up here and and they know that it's him. But now to have something fling back at them, that then is going to make him be able to get out of this. That's right. And this is the thing in Australia that they need to be 100% sure because double jeopardy laws apply. So they need to make sure they've got a water tight case, absolutely. And so they needed to investigate this all the way through. Yeah, yeah. I mean after the fact. I mean, there was people said that they were in conversations with him about these murders and how terrible they were.

1:10:10 And, you know, there was a a colleague of his from work that him they were shearing sheep and, you know, they were just chatting casually about the murders, you know, so there were things that they were able to get on record of him saying I. Didn't see that. What kind of things was he? Not Nothing. Incriminating really, but just conversations in general that he was having. OK. There was another guy who came forward who said it was maybe about five days after the murders, another bit of a gathering of, you know, maybe about 6 men.

1:10:35 I think they're all sitting around having a beer kind of situation. Not so much of A, you know, party going sort of thing. It was just like sitting around having a few beers sort of stuff. And Bill Mitchell was there and there was talk of the murder and how terrible it was, you know, and hit things like that. And they all said how he he just participated in conversation like everyone else, like, but to the point of like, Oh yeah, I'd freaking murder that person if I found them, you know, and that sort of stuff, which we now he was tremendous himself, you know, so very odd that he would put himself into those conversations, I guess distance himself maybe, I don't know.

1:11:10 Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, they finally arrest him. I think for everyone's benefit, the best thing could have happened in this area. I agree. He immediately confessed. Yeah. Which thank God, because to put the family then through trials and stuff would have been horrific. I really am glad that he confessed. It was horrific enough what they had to go through the sentencing of this. Absolutely. So they're. Yeah. So they arrest him and they charge him. Now. Have you got what they exactly charged him with there?

1:11:45 But. Basically, I know. Oh, here you go. 4 counts of wilful murder, sexual penetration of a child under 13, and indecent interference with dead bodies. Gross. So they charge him with that. Now, he in the process of this, he does a walkthrough and took and confesses to every part of what happened on that night, on that morning, whatever you're going to call it. Yeah. And he discusses the fact of how he arrived and Daniel had met him out the front and and that he had just attacked him with this axe and gone at him.

1:12:24 He walked. Apparently the way he described every killing was so detailed. And graphic. But and very graphic but as if he was like just explaining any other thing like. Definitely this is this gets me though. Yeah, Because I'm like, I wonder whether he's recounting of this and the way he recounted it has a bearing on then what came of his sentence. Oh, I don't know. I don't think it did. I don't know because I think it's unfortunately what which we can get to the sentence stuff. I think that was just basically WA law that put that into place.

1:13:13 I. Just think anyway, sorry. Yeah, keep going with where you're at. So yeah, in this process he talks about what he did with each of them, the murders. He explains how the fact was that he left with the cream. So then that solves that issue that they weren't able to find it in the house because he left with it, but also the axe that he took. And he said that he, he threw the cream in a dumpster and the, the tomahawk axe that he used, he threw that in the Grenfee River at a place called Devlin's Pools, I think it's called.

1:13:48 So he was able to direct them to exactly where he threw that in the river and they were able to find it, refined it, and they retrieved it and they had this is five weeks later when they retrieved and. It's been in water. Been in water all that time and they found his sludgy water still on. Yeah. The axe. Yeah. So again, that was just more evidence that linked him to the murders. I mean, the fact that he could even point out where it was and it was found. But then it also was very evident that it was the axe used in the the murders.

1:14:14 Carries murder, especially. Yeah, so that's just awful. Just absolutely awful that that was like that when they found it. So he really just the, he had no emotion around what he had done. And the other thing that he told police was that he didn't know why he'd done it. He knew he'd done. It all, he and that, but he had taken a shit ton of drugs. So for like 48 hour period we're talking like so the gathering he'd been at with with Karen, yeah, it left her place at 11 that morning of the Saturday.

1:14:52 Yeah, he had continued still taking more drugs to when he like, so when he arrived at their place at 3:00 AM, he'd basically been taking drugs straight for 48 hours. Cannabis, alcohol and amphetamines. Yeah, so he was on like an amphetamine fueled. Rage. Rage. But having said that, he remembered meticulously what he had done. This is. This is the. Thing that gets me like. Yeah, he had the the forethought to say to think to himself. I'm going to take. The Sorbolene with me, yeah. And the axe. Yeah, I mean the rid of the K Yep.

1:15:28 But the Sorbolene like that's that is to me, that's so calculated. Yes, you and you can't tell me that you didn't know what you were doing. If you're able to actually have the conscience of mind to do that. And it fuck it, it's it's just bloody horrific. It's bloody horrific. And this, this is what I was sort of alluding to before, is the fact that he says that because he was in this drug fuelled stupor that that's why he did what he did. Like, you know, did Karen reject his sexual advances the night before?

1:16:06 Well, there's that. He did say that that that's the the morning, the 5:00 AM when he dropped her home that morning, he had made a pass at her. And. That she rejected him so that's the only thing that police he never then said oh that's why I murdered her. He actually said that his actual words were that he decided all of a sudden just decided he wanted to kill her whole family. Yep. Not even just go and kill Karen. No, he intended. He had intention to go there and kill all. Four of them. Again, we're looking at like a premeditation type of thing here.

1:16:38 Absolutely. This wasn't a crime of it's an argument that to perpetrate something on Karen and the kids just happened to get in the way. He could have walked away after killing absolutely Danny and Karen and left those 2 girls. Alone I mean. I mean, what would their lives have been? Well, I'm sure that you know, their auntie and grandma would have of course taken them in and sort. Of that, of course they would have. But that's I mean to think that he his intention entirely the entire time was to go there and kill all of them.

1:17:08 But don't know why I think. I honestly think he's just a fragile fucking piece of shit. And he was. His ego was. Rejected. Rejected. And he fucking fucking kill them all. I'll. Show her what? Disgusting. Depraved. Oh, he is wanker. He is the fucking lowest of the low. He's the biggest fucking piece of shit. Oh God, I can't even. Now it's, I mean, we're at this point of like the family have been through hell. I mean, I'm talking so we're talking Barbara Karen's mom, her sister, her brothers as well, but her sister in particular has been very vocal around all of this.

1:17:46 The hell that they were put through in losing the four of them all at once in this was just horrific. Not to mention then what happened to their poor bodies after they were killed. It's just disgusting. But then that's. My heart that Evelyn has said that she was, she actually sold some horses that she owned and she was going to use the money to go and visit them, to visit her family, but she ended up needing to use that money to go to their funerals. That's awful you. Know that that's it actually.

1:18:23 It actually makes me feel physically I'll like you put yourself in her shoes and you think Oh my God. Like she was actually wanting to go to there to have a great time with her sister and her nephew. Yeah. Who was. She was like a mum, A second mum to her nephew. Yeah. And her 2 little nieces who were around the same age as her two daughters, as Evelyn's two daughters at the time. Yeah, I, I just. I actually just can't even. No, just awful. Awful. But then they get to. Sorry, just really quickly on Evelyn's story as well, the way she found out about their death really gets.

1:19:01 Me. That's hard. Yeah, I. Think this is probably one thing that we might be able to potentially criticize police on is the way that this came about. So Evelyn lived in Queens? Oh, no, sorry, she lived in Melbourne at the time. She just really moved to Melbourne and I think they moved for his work. That's right. Now I remember something about that, yeah. And what happened was she'd been trying to call Karen for days and days and days, no answer, nothing. Her brother, who I believe one of the brothers, lived in Perth and he'd seen on the local Perth news that a family in Greniff, a mum, three children, the ages hit the same ages as Karen and the kids had been murdered.

1:19:45 Now he then contacted Evelyn and said this has just been on the news but don't know what's going on. But I've tried calling and I can't get in contact with them. Evelyn and her husband were actually going out that night and what she decided to do was tape the nightly news and they went out, did whatever they were doing, came home and Evelyn couldn't shake it. And so she and her husband decided to call the Geraldton police and find out what was going on. But they couldn't tell them. They didn't tell them anything that meant anything.

1:20:19 No, I. Thought, they told. Her it wasn't until later on like they, they were persistent, I think. I think it was actually Evelyn's husband who just was not taking no for an answer or at her direction. Yeah, she's like, I can't do this. Yeah, the next day, so I'm talking now like over 48 hours, over 48 hours later Tuesday, God, a police officer knocked at her door and she was like, well, I actually know what you're here for. I've been trying to get, I've been trying to get confrontation officially, but I know why you're here.

1:20:51 So imagine that even like that to. Me, that's something like I'm I'm certain then because she was trying to ring her sister and like home phone situation. Yeah, I'm sure that the phone's ringing constantly. Or not constantly, but every hour and then every couple hours. You know, kind of stuff. Well, there's police potentially in that house doing their search. Didn't they think to themselves like there's someone's trying to contact her, Maybe one of them could have picked up that phone. I don't know.

1:21:17 I don't. Know, I don't know what the protocol would be in that situation. That's awful. Yeah. I just, I feel, I feel so deeply for Evelyn. Oh yeah, really do. Oh God, yeah. Because she's taken this on, she's taken the brunt of this on. Well, because then no, because then we hit like the sentencing with this, which so obviously because he's pleaded guilty. Yeah. The judge, look, he, he took it all into account of what had happened, which was horrific. And what he did was he sentenced him to life imprisonment.

1:21:48 However, there are some laws in what WA were a bit weird that basically he and he stated it, he was this was the hardest decision he's ever had to make in a judgement. And for whatever reason, he made him eligible for parole after 20 years. There is there was some sort of rule in WA where 20 years was equivalent to life. Not so there's life, natural life, which is his natural life, the the perpetrator. But then there's life as in sentencing. And technically in WA that was 20 years, which 20 years isn't life like it's not anyway.

1:22:25 Anyway, that's what he was sentenced. The Crown then appealed that, rightly so. They were like, that's not right. It's five years per person that is not. Absolutely, and let alone the rest of what he did. That that's for the murders like, let alone I mean. Surely then you can at least. And he should have. He should have been sentenced 20 years per like life sentence per person that was murdered. He was, but it was kids to serve concurrent. Currently then I got to be I hate that shit. It needs to be concurrently.

1:22:53 Why? How can you serve someone to do that at the same time? No, no, executive only got to be an executive wasn't. Yeah, Anyway, yeah. So it's appealed and the appeal was 1. So basically it was then changed to the natural life of of Bill Mitchell. So he was then and well, there was in amongst all that people were calling for the death penalty, you know, and all these sorts of things because of the heinous crime that he'd committed. But so, but this shits me that then he gets then last say and the final appeal that can be made.

1:23:25 Like you can't make that many appeals that on a, on a case. No. So once we hit this next appeal, that's this is the last run he makes. Mitchell makes another appeal to the sentencing and he wins it and it goes back to being eligible for parole after 20 years. So so. That was 2013. He was originally meant to be eligible. He was meant to be eligible for parole, so he goes up for parole, which I mean that family of just being tortured again. Oh, it's, it's re traumatizing. It's it's absolutely re traumatizing.

1:23:59 And at the time at in 2013, he was actually moved from one prison. He was at Cass Arena Prison, which is a maximum security prison in WA. He was there but just coming up to that 2013, he was moved to Bunbury Regional Prison. Like Prison Farm. Is a lower security level, so people started being like fuck, they're like getting him ready. That's why they moved in there. Yeah, that's why they moved in there, because that's the next step before getting. Before getting parole so everyone was like shit like he's gonna get out like this is which is just can't even think that that's even possible, can you?

1:24:33 No, no. And so anyway, he was declined at parole, thank God. But then three years later, because this is what the rule is in WA at the time, that after three years you can another go at it, you can you can try again. You might have been rehabilitated in three years and so you get to try again. So 2016 rolls around and this fucker gets to go again for his parole. Fortunately, it was denied in 2016. Now at this point there are there's uproar like this poor family. And now every three years like so then he's eligible again in 2019.

1:25:07 So this could go on forever that he, they, they could, he could recall this and recall this every three years. This poor family are going through these parole processes. So Evelyn, she wrote this amazing letter. Can I read it, please? Just got I have I'm not going to read the entire thing, but I'm just going to read a little expert of it because I think it's I think it's worth it's. Really. She's yeah, really well, well done. So Evelyn says my 2 youngest daughters were very similar ages to Amara and Katrina and as I have watched them grow over the years, I continually think of what sort of life my nieces would have had.

1:25:43 They were very happy little girls who who adored their mom and brother. They had beautiful smiles and had the innocence of life stolen from them in the most barbaric way. I cannot ever forgive the way in which they died. Children are so defenseless and pure of heart. I do not understand how anyone with any sense of right or wrong could do what was done to them. My nephew Danny was a real Rascal, but he had a heart of gold. He would never have let his mom or sisters get hurt if he could help it. He was a strong young man and was over 6 foot tall.

1:26:18 If he had known what was going to happen to him when he went outside that night to see who had driven up the driveway, he would have fought with all his might to protect his family. My sister had him when she was very young and when Danny was 2 years old she left him with my mother, my two brothers and I had to take care of. Just before Danny turned 16, he said he wanted to go and live with his mom and sisters in WA. He had decided he wanted to make his mom proud and he was enjoying his new life with them.

1:26:47 Karen went through many difficult times and had to fight hard to achieve what she had in life until Mitchell cut her life short. She wasn't perfect, but she overcame obstacles to get her to the point where she was buying a house to make a home for herself and her children. I was very proud of what she achieved. It was always Karen and I against the world when we were children. She was the best sister, always looking out for me and keeping me safe when we were young. When we were older I got to return the favour over the years, but it kills me to know that I wasn't there to help protect her and her family when she needed me most.

1:27:27 This is it. The trauma of her family is just horrendous. There's another quote from from Evelyn Summer if it was in that or not that she said. We've all got a life sentence for this. That was in this letter. He should have a life sentence as well, which is just so true. The, the, as we talk about the untold, you know, toll of these incidents. Now, Evelyn's daughter, when this all happened, Karen wrote journals and her daughter found, well, they, you know, had these journals and her daughter read them and really connected with her auntie.

1:28:03 She didn't know her that well because they'd obviously lived on opposite sides of the country, but she just connected with these journals. Now, Karen had gone through a lot of depression in her life for a number of reasons, like in terms of relationships she'd had and things that were going on with her for her life. But obviously she was finding a way through that and working out, which was amazing for her. But Evelyn's daughter really some, for some whatever reason, connected with a lot of this depression and things that was in these journals and she ended up committing suicide, which is Evelyn now feels like, you know, that that's just another toll of this.

1:28:38 Oh, I couldn't agree with him more. Absolutely. I mean, it's just so tragic than then, as you say, she would have been a similar age to either Amara or Katrina at the time. I mean, such a young girl at the time, she wouldn't have known about too much of what was going on. She wouldn't know enough, that's for damn sure, you know? And then as she's got older, she's read these journals and things and knows more. About it I believe she took her own life three weeks or so after she turned 18. Yeah, yeah.

1:29:06 It was just too much. It's. Just awful. And so it's impacted, you know, so many people. Yeah. And Evelyn, like the, the trauma for Evelyn, I just think she's been through so much and the ripple effect that you were talking about before. I I think it's directly attributed attributed to the fact that her family suffered the fate they suffered. Yeah, yeah, at the. Hands of this psycho drug fueled fuckwit. Yeah, yeah. And this is the thing that I find really offensive about the judge's remarks in sentencing.

1:29:49 He says that he, I'm paraphrasing, this isn't a direct quote at all, but basically he said that he feels like it was a drug fueled rage and therefore rehabilitation is possible. How can you annihilate an entire fucking family with such extreme like I, we have been doing this. What is this our 74th, 75th episode? Something like that. We have not come across something this brutal yet. No, this is what this has got to be up there. This has got to be one of the biggest ones. Well, 'cause the other thing is that that was stated in the, the appeal, the final appeal, the the defence lawyers, what they appealed on was the fact that again reiterating that he, they thought that he was rehabilitatable, saying that that that being put in prison for than his natural life would be, that would be something you would keep aside for something like a serial killer.

1:30:48 Oh fuck off. And he's not fucking. Serial killer and. Now he no, he doesn't meet the criteria. But instead of meeting the criteria for a serial killer, he meets the criteria of a masochist. Yeah. Now, I'm sorry, what point do we kind of go that a serial killer is worse than a masochist? I don't know. Especially surely to count the sexual assaults as well. This. Is the thing that I feel like got lost in all. Of it, it fucking infuriates me. Yeah, he decided to take those drugs. This is it. He decided to be.

1:31:14 Well, yeah, this is what? Drinking and shooting up the defensively a smoking dope. You know, with him being in prison and being, you know, off drugs and things, he then isn't, you know? A risk 21 in the community? No, no. Like, so let's put him back out in the community where he can get back on those drugs and again, 'cause another massacre, which then puts him in the category of a serial killer. I'm. Actually just not interested in even thinking no. Because the fact the simple faction there is, I honestly, truly, honestly believe this, Right, right.

1:31:41 That he committed this murder, which, yes, doesn't meet the criteria for serial killer, right. But a masochist. However, if the cops weren't as good as they were at their job, I can guarantee you he would have done it again. Yeah, agreed. So no, he's not a serial killer now. But if he had been left to do it again and they hadn't done their job, yes, he would be. And we want to stop. That can I just say as well, OK, I get that our prison system is intended for rehabilitation. Yes, for most. For most.

1:32:11 And this is what he was sort of saying was that you that can't come. Back. That serial killers can't be rehabilitated. So that's when you don't give them, you know, any parole. Well, I don't give. Sorry. Stop. What measure, what measure are we taking to ensure that when we're releasing somebody who's perpetrated such untold? That which he can't remember why he decided to do it. Of course he fucking can. It's because he got rejected and his masculinity was bruised so. You don't tell me you won't do that again.

1:32:43 Yeah, exactly. Because he's gonna get rejected again in life, because that's. He's gonna. Go just I don't, I can't. Yep. So he was eligible to go for parole again in 2025. Well, so, yeah, but the reason for that is because what happened in the meantime is like because of Evelyn's she did. Yep. And and also a particular person getting into governor, all these sorts of things, certain levels of government that would came into play and those people that were individuals. By like 18,000 no. 45 it was, it was massive.

1:33:16 It was huge. So yeah, this petition was done and it was really well done. Anyway, they then changed the laws. So what unfortunately it is now is that instead of three years, it's six years. So he is. He was eligible again for parole in 2025. Yeah, but that hasn't happened yet. So it's gonna be up. So it will come up soonish that he will be. Up for that again, he chooses to apply for Parle thing. He's got, he's got, he's now eligible to. Apply to apply. Whether he gets it or not, we don't know. Yeah, yeah.

1:33:47 So in the meantime, though also Evelyn, to her credit, amazing woman she took at a point she chose to go in and. Meet with him. My God, this in. Prison. Yep. She is amazing. She's so strong. She went in there with an intention. She didn't really want to know why he did it, because to be honest, there's no. Matter use. For this, there's no reason, no. So she went in there really just about to look him in the eyes and tell him what he has done and taken away from him that he has created. And so I just.

1:34:21 And she also says that she wanted him to know who Karen really was. Yeah, that's right. You know, I guess, I guess Evelyn assumed that she, he knew the partying side of Karen. He didn't know all the shit that she'd been through in her life, not how hard she'd fought to be where she was, the things that she'd overcome in her life, how much she loved her children, how much she loved her sister, and how important she was to so many people. Yeah, and all of the kids as well, I think. How brave. How brave is Evelyn?

1:34:57 I, that piece of shit sat there and said to her that he has an intention of getting out and that he he wants, he's got the idea of that. That he has eligibility for parole is what keeps him going every day. What a cock, he she said to him at the time. She said, I told him as long as I've got breath in my body, I'm going to do everything I can to keep him inside. And she said, she said this, she's like, until either I die or he dies, I will fight to the ends of the earth to make sure he doesn't get out.

1:35:34 I I hope that he's he hears that and then doesn't bother for parole. I think he will. I know. I honestly think he will. When I was looking up, when I saw that he was eligible to apply again in 2025, I was like, fuck yeah, looked it up, Obviously there's nothing to find. Yeah, there's nothing there yet. But I mean, we'll keep you guys updated if we do find anything. But yeah, he deserves to die on in prison. I wish. Maybe some other prisoners could find him, I don't know. Well, this is the thing.

1:36:02 He's also a protected prisoner. Yes, you know how fucking bullshit is that? Somebody needs to finish the job and cut his Dick off. Wouldn't take much, it's surely just hanging on by a thread disbursting. Gap Dick. That's a Real Housewives reference for anyone, For anyone Playing home, at home, playing a home. Card for this year though. OK, where'd that come from? You know what I'm talking about, right? I just was like a reference I haven't heard in so long. Oh God. Oh, God. I mean, the other thing I just wanted to touch on a little bit of like, William, wait, his full name is William William Patrick Bill Mitchell Bill.

1:36:49 Now, look, he didn't have the greatest of childhoods. No. And I don't, I don't want to dwell too much on that side of things in that, Yeah, he was raised in a very, very poor family, went to school and was bullied horrendously. His mum died when he was 11. Yeah, he had a shit childhood. Yep. The only reason I'm bringing this up, though, is that this is where I think we can go back to and tick the boxes on him being a serial killer. Yeah, this is where I come back again, where I think more psychological assessments need to be done.

1:37:17 Yeah, where we can assess people at this point and say, mate, you're not getting risk because you meet this criteria. Yeah, of you. You are what makes a serial killer. Yeah, like I think I we need to also say at this point is not everyone who has an upbringing like his is gonna end up mass murdering somebody. But he had Karen. Karen could make criteria potentially for her trauma that she had in her childhood for sure. She didn't go around axe murdering people. She actually. Was trying to make a life.

1:37:46 Yeah. So I, I literally looked at this case and went, this is the example of a victim here who has done everything in her life to try and get away from the trauma that she has had in her life and build a life, you know, based off of so much stuff that's gone on for her. And I have so much respect for her for doing that. And then this evil piece of shit who has also had trauma in his life but is instead of trying to make a life for himself and do better, does what he does and it's just wrong. It's.

1:38:18 And how do we avoid this shit? Keep him in jail, especially after they've done this. Stuff, I mean, absolutely. There is no way he should be getting out like there. That is not even a question in my mind. No, I hope. I hope. I don't know what else we can do, but Nope, he never gets out. I feel for Evelyn because she's got the burden of this on her shoulders. Yeah, of fighting this. I mean, at least I guess now it's every six years instead of every three. But he can breathe a deal. Between because I feel like 3.

1:38:46 Years would just come around hanging over your like over your head. I don't think you would ever be able to let it go. No, no. You know, even OK, something might happen, you know, this year. Let's say he doesn't get out. Well, then she's probably thinking, all right, well, how am I going to keep this going again for next time? Yeah. Yeah, Yep. I mean, we're talking now. I mean, this, this murder occurred over 30 years ago. Yeah. I mean, and she's still having to battle this. Yeah. It's just horrific.

1:39:14 Yeah. Yeah, she's a, she's an exceptional woman, especially given, you know, she's had so much trauma in her life, too. I mean, by the sounds of it, she's got a very, very supportive husband and children. Yeah, Thank goodness for that. Yeah. But you know, this is still her burden, you know? Yeah. And she, I know she doesn't see it as a burden as in, you know, she would do anything for her sister and her children and, you know, her nieces and nephew. Yeah. But seriously.

1:39:44 Absolutely, yeah. Oh that was a heavy one. Did you struggle researching this? One this week I had to take break. Same. Yeah, me too. I actually, I found myself, I was actually listening to that Crime invest in Crime Investigation Australia. I was just listening to it as opposed to watching. It the other day. Oh. Yeah, I watched it. I watched it. I was watching it again, listening to it, not watching it today, just to refresh my memory on a few things because as I said before, I felt so unprepared and I actually had to turn it off.

1:40:16 Yeah, like it actually. Really. There are a few things that happened in that and I was like, Oh no, no, I actually can't. I don't want to hear any more. About it actually with that now do other things whilst I watched it so I was distracted like it was like I had to do like 2. Things and it's like, yeah, you needed your brain to not just be focusing on that. No, absolutely. Yeah. But worth a watch though if people do want to. And the other thing I think it's worth noting is the fact that, you know, these cases, these things I think are so important to talk about because, yeah, we're keeping the memory of these people alive.

1:40:48 But we're also, you know, I think people need to be aware that the justice system is not felt. It's, it's fallible, it's flawed. And there are ways that people who perpetrate fucking events like this, yeah, can potentially be out amongst the community again. But also sometimes the cops do damn good work so don't even bother doing this shit because you'll get caught. Don't even. But unfortunately then the justice system in the courts won't do what they need to do and you'll probably be out after 20 years.

1:41:19 So it's kind of this, it's vicious cycle of sorts, isn't it? Yeah, all. Right, next week we're heading to South Australia. So blade always. Brings it. Oh, don't they, though? SA has spicy cases and this one is Angelica Guevara. Is that how you say your surname? Yeah. And yeah, this one we just did a quick because we were like both of us when we were. Looking like hold on, I knew I wrote it on there but I was like this. Because I was like, I'm pretty sure I haven't added this one, this was a Meg one or someone suggested it to you maybe?

1:41:50 Possibly, yeah. And yeah, we just had a quick look. I'm like oh, looking forward to researching. This one, Yep, very interesting. Yep, all good. Adelaide always knows how to bring it though. Oh, they they should. Some crazy ones man all. Good. All right, Well, stay curious. Crime besties. Bye.