Episode 75 - The Greenough Family Massacre

0:16 Welcome back to Crime Besties to our next episode.

0:19 How are you? I'm good.

0:21 How you doing? Yeah, I'm good.

0:22 I'm well, actually, to be honest with you, I'm unprepared.

0:24 I feel very unprepared for this case.

0:27 I I feel like this week has been so we are recording this the

0:31 week before the kids go back to school.

0:33 Yeah, back into full blown work, like work has just gone from

0:37 zero to 100 this week. Everyone's back at work,

0:39 everyone's has. That's right.

0:41 Everything's urgent, needs to be done yesterday, yes.

0:44 So that's been mental. And then on top of that, you

0:48 know, we've got the kids at home and managing all of them.

0:51 It's just been a crazy, crazy week and I have not like I've

0:55 had time. But mental load wise?

0:58 Load wise I haven't because I'm still not in the swing of things

1:02 and not in my routine yet. I feel for everyone.

1:04 I, I mean, I have so much empathy for parents that are

1:07 juggling the school holidays with kids home and trying to

1:10 work. I just, I don't know how you

1:12 manage it. I really do have a whole lot of

1:14 empathy. I, I just, it's not, it's just

1:16 not conducive to, to families, you know, having kids home and

1:20 stuff. So it's hard.

1:21 And kids don't particularly like holiday care programs quite

1:24 often. It's not pretty rare you find a

1:26 kid who's like send me with a holiday care program, especially

1:29 when they reach a certain age. I reckon that like and our kids

1:32 are probably about there, that they'd be like even if they were

1:35 OK about going there now over it.

1:37 Age wise definitely, but not but still not old enough to really

1:41 take themselves entirely. Not at all, although the.

1:43 Crap out of you. I'm really lucky because I can

1:46 work from home a little bit and Peter can too, so.

1:50 And we do have, like help from grandparents.

1:52 Yeah. So we can manage it.

1:54 Yeah, but it's hard, like working from home with the kids

1:57 at home takes me back to 2020 when I was ready to triggering.

2:03 Oh, it's so triggering. We were all ready to bloody

2:05 murder each other, I think. Oh yeah, yeah, you'd be our next

2:08 case, yeah. I'm surprised we made it through

2:11 actually. So yeah, that I feel really

2:14 unprepared today. So I'm really sorry everyone, if

2:16 I'm a bit, I don't know, scattered or something.

2:18 We will get there. We will get, we will get there.

2:20 I'm relying on you, Meg. Oh, fuck.

2:22 As I always as I always do. I need you to.

2:25 Keep it in order. I've got a, I've got, I've got

2:28 the chronological events, which is my Forte.

2:30 OK. The detail, not so much, but

2:33 you're really good at that. OK, So who's?

2:35 She talking to. Yeah, so before we get started,

2:40 though, I've got We need to Talk about Brooklyn Beckham.

2:44 Oh, I was wondering if you're gonna bring this up.

2:45 Oh, I'm down for OK. Yeah, so this is gonna be old

2:48 news by the time this episode comes out.

2:49 And I just wonder, will we have a video of Victoria at the

2:53 wedding working? Have you seen the AI I've?

2:57 Seen. Yeah.

2:57 It's so great. It's so great.

3:00 Finally, AI is being put to good.

3:01 Use it's finally, finally. This is what it was here for.

3:05 OK, what are your thoughts? Because I have serious thoughts

3:07 on this. Well, first of all, I feel as

3:10 though he needed to just have someone proofread and check over

3:16 his slides before he put them out.

3:17 Oh, you reckon he didn't write it?

3:19 You reckon he wrote that? I mean, Sorry.

3:20 Yeah, I think he wrote it OK. You don't think he wrote it?

3:23 Oh, I reckon he totally had help writing it.

3:25 But it was so fucking muddled in parts and I'm like, no, it could

3:29 have been, it was 6 slides, it could have been three, maybe

3:32 4:00. And also, did we need like all

3:35 of the absolute detail? But.

3:38 OK, so do you believe him? Yeah, I believe.

3:40 It so do IA 100% Yeah, I don't think you would.

3:42 I thought you might be a little bit on.

3:44 I fucking love. I love Victoria, I love her.

3:48 That whole the whole Victoria Beckham, like we spoke about

3:50 this at the time. I don't know if it was here or

3:51 Patreon, but I was like that's what the doco that she did and I

3:56 couldn't even watch all of it. Oh, I.

3:57 Fucking loved it. Yeah, I couldn't.

3:59 There was. There's something about them.

4:02 Yeah. That I don't buy into yeah same

4:05 like well when I go I go right back to the the nanny the nanny

4:09 yeah right and that whole scenario how that's kind of just

4:13 been swept under the rug with them and like and all that that

4:15 I just go now there is something not right here about the

4:18 relationship and about the the image they want to portray I.

4:21 Get that? But I think if you come at them

4:23 knowing that and being fully conscious and aware of that,

4:27 that's why I believe what Brooklyn's saying.

4:29 Yes, no, this is the that's it. That's what I can't handle,

4:31 though, is like, I fully understand where he's coming

4:33 from. Yeah, and believe him.

4:35 And I think he's had I think they have done damage to their

4:38 children by this what their their this portraying of an

4:42 image they wanted. I that's why I can't buy in.

4:45 I'm like, oh, no, that's not it's toxic.

4:47 Yeah, like I can't. Oh I'm not saying it's not

4:49 toxic, I just love it. If there was just the two of

4:52 them and there weren't children involved and this was all that

4:54 I, I could go, I could, I could be more a.

4:57 Lot of that, a lot of that can be said for and I know we've

4:59 discussed this like just completely coming to mind

5:02 immediately is the Ruby Frankie stuff and the 8 passengers,

5:05 right? So many parents exploit their

5:07 children, it's not even funny. And it's almost in our society

5:11 where we are consumer whores for this shit.

5:14 Yeah, it is accepted whether that's OK or not.

5:19 And it's really not. It's really actually not OK, but

5:24 it is what it is. And we know what we know because

5:26 they're putting it out there. And so I think if they think

5:30 people are not gonna weigh in on this and be interested in this

5:32 and want the video of Victoria at the wedding, then they're

5:35 deluded. Yeah, because they've created

5:37 this monster. Mm Hmm.

5:38 So I'm here for it. I fucking when I saw this, I

5:42 actually like, squealed. I was like, Oh my God.

5:46 Oh, he's finally. Done.

5:48 He's done it. Have you seen the video of it

5:51 was at some sort of premiere or whatever?

5:53 And there's, yes, David and Victoria and the other kids

5:55 standing there having photos and then book Brooklyn and Nicola

5:58 walk in to join the family photo and the IT is I see between her

6:05 and Victoria and Victoria more so.

6:07 Yeah, but Victoria also pushes Brooklyn away in that to like,

6:11 be like, no, no, you're not in this photo.

6:12 Yeah, like. Behind her even.

6:14 Let's go back there. Yeah, like there was.

6:17 It was. Oh my God.

6:19 I'm like there's, that's and that's what's.

6:20 Going on in front of cameras, like imagine, you know, the shit

6:24 storm that's going on. Yeah, in the family group chat.

6:26 Yes, Oh, this is the thing. I just can't.

6:29 I mean I was just there's no amount of money that can buy

6:34 class. Like.

6:36 Oh, there's no money. Money got claw between those two

6:38 families, even more so hers. Oh shit.

6:41 Well it's true. This is the other thing and I

6:42 reckon This is why the Beckham's are like a bit dirty on the

6:45 whole situation. Beckham's are rich.

6:47 He. Actually, he actually married

6:48 up. Yeah, you know, like it's almost

6:50 impossible. Yeah, the Beckham's are rich,

6:52 but the Peltzers are like, they are old money.

6:56 They are old money. They they are beyond wealthy.

6:59 Yeah. And so I think.

7:01 Might actually have a chance of becoming a chef now.

7:04 Well, maybe out of his parents, you know, under his parents

7:07 thumb, maybe he can pursue a career.

7:09 Oh my God. Have you seen some of the videos

7:11 He did A he did a video, an interview with I feel like it

7:15 was tasty or one of those, like online.

7:18 Yeah, yeah. You know, And he cooked.

7:21 Oh my God. It was either roast potato or

7:23 Mashed potato and really hard. Yeah.

7:27 Oh, fuck me. Like, honestly.

7:29 Oh, but you couldn't call him a chef's no asshole.

7:35 No, you're looking, you know, doing it and you've clearly had

7:37 a chef in your house all your life because you've have, you

7:40 have not been in that kitchen with your mum.

7:42 Making that oh, baby, yeah, totally.

7:44 I'm totally oh. God, yeah.

7:45 Oh God. I couldn't wield a knife.

7:47 You tried. No, it's so funny.

7:50 But you know, good on him for I guess.

7:52 Having a dream? Have a dream, mate.

7:54 Go for it. You reach for those stars.

7:55 Mm. Hmm.

7:56 Yeah, I'm here for it, Yeah. Oh, I'm so here for it.

8:00 I just want to see what the outcome is.

8:02 Do you reckon the beckons are going to they'll go silent

8:04 respond. I reckon they'll go silent.

8:06 It's. The classier way to go, Yeah,

8:08 yeah. If they if they've got any

8:09 sense, they'll just. Yeah, shut up.

8:11 Yeah, not add fuel. To the fire, I mean, in the

8:13 background I'm sure there's shit going down between them, but

8:16 like publicly I think. Yeah, their PR team would be

8:19 like not we're not responding. Don't even don't mention

8:23 anything. Don't say anything.

8:25 Yeah, PR team will be working overload.

8:27 Yeah, yeah. Which I think they do with them

8:30 all the time. Yeah, they'd have.

8:32 I mean, they'd have to. Yeah, they would absolutely have

8:34 to. God.

8:39 We do have some shout outs today, yes we've got 3 new

8:42 patreons, Sky Maz and Shalani Piercena.

8:47 I hope I've said that right. And then we've had some coffees

8:50 bought for us as well. Well we Tracy Vaughn bought us

8:52 some coffees with a beautiful comment and then Nicole Nudes

8:57 bought us some wine for us and then I didn't really.

9:02 She must have, I don't know, lizardy type animals.

9:06 I don't know because she in the comments she said something

9:08 about buy Kyle this not this. Some blood worms or something

9:12 for Kyle. And it was, yeah.

9:13 And a treat for Piper. So I'm actually.

9:15 Just reminding me I need to go and buy new.

9:17 Buy more food for the Kyle. So how's Kyle going?

9:20 Oh my God, guys. So last night I was lying in bed

9:23 minding my own, you know, actually, I was watching.

9:26 I was watching just. Starting my night.

9:29 Oh, that is so funny. I was watching Real Housewives

9:33 of sort, like, singer reunion second.

9:35 Oh my God. Oh my God, it's so good.

9:38 I was watching that. And I get this message from

9:40 Megan. She's like, Oh my God, guys.

9:42 With a photo of Kyle, by the way, a video.

9:44 A video. Yeah.

9:45 Just to really hone in on what's going on.

9:48 Just like, do I need to take this thing to a fucking vet?

9:50 And Kyle was like literally just like he just not moving, just

9:55 floating like, and his little legs were down.

9:58 He's not moving. His gills were kind of moving.

10:00 Yeah. Not often.

10:01 Do they need to move often? I don't have no idea.

10:03 I would assume so because isn't that how they oxygenate?

10:05 Was like anyway I. Don't know if they're gills or

10:06 not though. Those things I don't know.

10:08 Oh, no, he doesn't have gills on the side of it.

10:10 Yeah. Anyway, so I googled because Meg

10:15 was like, I've tried feeding him.

10:16 He doesn't even go for the food. He.

10:17 Kind of just like would open his mouth, but like, didn't get any.

10:21 Yeah, but that was the only movement I'd get out of him.

10:23 Yeah, he was just stationary in the middle of the the tank.

10:27 Like, yeah, the weirdest. How on earth he even does that?

10:30 Like, how do you even float in the middle of the water?

10:33 But. Also being he was like still

10:34 it's not like he was keeping himself there no.

10:37 Anyway, so I googled what do I do if my axolotl doesn't move

10:42 and doesn't want to eat and it basically came back with the

10:45 fact that he's constipated. Not gas, he's got gas or he's

10:49 constipated. So has he had a bowel movement?

10:51 I have no idea. I wouldn't have a clue.

10:52 I don't know. It said something about

10:55 temperature of the water and that too.

10:57 It sounds like I'm meant to like, care about it and I just

11:03 put the food in. That's Brody's.

11:05 If Domain something happened to him or Brody wasn't at home

11:07 because at the minute Brody's not at home, So would you

11:11 attempt a replacement? He would pick.

11:15 He would pick it. He would pick it out of out of.

11:18 Yeah, I literally because I was, because probably looking at

11:20 another pet soon. You do this to yourself.

11:24 I know I do this to myself. I know I totally do.

11:27 Anyway, I was at this like aquariumy lizardy place like

11:31 getting. Asking every tell everyone what

11:33 you're getting and we know you're getting them.

11:35 Like the fact that you even went to ask inquiries?

11:37 Just want to get the price and stuff and what I'm really

11:40 looking at if I do this, but my eldest son is obsessed and I

11:45 mean obsessed obsessed. Also he's ASD that obsessed like

11:48 he this is his thing is frogs. So he wants a pet frog.

11:52 Well, yeah. So.

11:53 Oh. God, can you get one or do they

11:56 need a companion? Oh yeah, you can get one.

12:00 Sounds like we're getting more than one.

12:02 Why? Because I'm a fucking idiot.

12:04 That's. Why?

12:05 How did someone who convinced you to get more than one?

12:08 The guy at the shop. Oh, why?

12:09 What? What's his reasoning behind it?

12:11 Because because my son loves frogs and that there's all

12:15 different breeds. Oh, OK.

12:17 And he said you could keep them all in the same container.

12:19 And The thing is that at the moment there's a special on the

12:22 bigger enclosure thing that you might as well go the bigger 1.

12:27 And so in the bigger 1 you can keep everything.

12:31 So what kind of frog are we talking about?

12:34 I said to him, I wanna stick to anything Victorian because I

12:38 want heating. I don't want heat lamps.

12:39 I don't want, you know, UVB lamps.

12:41 I don't wanna, I don't wanna manage all that.

12:44 I don't want hard. I want, you know, stick em in

12:46 there and. Change the law with them, yeah.

12:49 Yeah. So we can do anything Victorian.

12:51 So there's certain there's about 10 different types of marsh

12:54 frogs or. Something that you can do?

12:55 Marsh frogs. And then there's a they're.

12:57 The Brownies. There's they're very there's

12:58 different ones you can get albino ones, you can get brown

13:01 ones, you can get spotted ones, you can get OK, all sorts of

13:03 different ones. I.

13:04 Just think of Marsh Frog and I think of those like brown Toady

13:07 looking. Yeah, they're kind of like that.

13:08 But these were cute. Actually, the ones that he had,

13:09 they're only baby ones. They're quite cute.

13:12 And then but he can also do in this enclosure that he was

13:15 suggesting was a brown tree frog, which they grow pretty

13:20 big, so well, reasonable size. So I was like, Oh my God.

13:26 Where are you going to put the tank?

13:28 Yeah, I've got to measure up and make sure it fits where I think

13:30 it's. Going to be OK.

13:32 Yeah, Where was I going originally?

13:35 Oh. We took no, you need to go and

13:37 get food for oh. No, I was looking at like so,

13:39 well, they're looking at the frog stuff.

13:40 I was looking. There was a tank full of

13:42 axolotls and like, you know, being there done that.

13:46 I went to the tank and there was a black 1 like you know, Kyle

13:49 and I looked at it and I looked at this black Axel and went

13:52 that's not Kyle. Like I know that's not Kyle.

13:55 So I'm like I can if I can know that's not.

13:57 Kyle Oh, you're fucked. Brody would 100% know that's not

14:00 Kyle. Yeah, like is that?

14:03 Is that because you've developed a connection with Kyle?

14:07 No, he's just, he's grown since we got him and he's changed and

14:10 we've. And there's someone who stares

14:13 in the eyes of. Their I stare at a lot because

14:14 I'm really worried it's going to climb out and get me.

14:18 The climbing out would just freak me.

14:20 Out I make sure that the water level stays like low because

14:23 that's what the guy said to me he goes just keep the water

14:25 level low if you're worried about it I eyeball that water

14:27 level very regularly and make. Sure, you need to make a mark on

14:30 the top too low. Do not go above this height.

14:33 Yeah, I do. I'm I'm.

14:35 Really, really worried about it. That would be my worst fear.

14:38 Yeah, if we had one. Well, my worst fear is that

14:40 something will go wrong while I'm on watch.

14:42 Yeah, because that's just. If it happens while he's home,

14:45 well, then he knows that I've done nothing wrong.

14:47 Yeah. Whereas if it happened whilst he

14:49 wasn't home, Oh my God. He'd be like.

14:51 You didn't, you said it wrong. I you know, I did something

14:54 wrong. So it's just.

14:55 Like no, he's constipated. That's not my not my fault.

14:58 I'll let him know he's constipated.

15:00 Yeah. Oh God.

15:02 Yeah, watch this space. Oh, I'm an idiot.

15:07 At least you get good, good cute dogs and stuff.

15:09 Whereas I'm stuck with bloody ridiculous out.

15:12 Although Piper's, Piper's in the doghouse a little bit today.

15:15 So I thought we had the this is classic.

15:19 I'm talking human toddler, dog, toddler.

15:24 I thought we had the toilet training down.

15:26 She hasn't had an accident in days and days always going

15:30 outside. All good.

15:31 Three accidents inside today. I didn't even tell tell anyone

15:34 so it's not like I jinxed. It nice regression there.

15:36 She must be hitting like the three month mark.

15:39 The leap I need to look up my doggy.

15:40 Leap doggy leaps. I'm sure there's leaps in there.

15:43 Anyway, so she's actually just chilling outside at the minute,

15:47 which is, you know, not the worst thing in the world.

15:51 She's so poor little pipes. She's gorgeous.

15:53 All right. Should we get into?

15:54 Oh, have I done all my shout outs?

15:56 No, I'm sorry. We also need to thank Amy for

15:59 commenting on all of our shit. So thank you, Amy.

16:01 Yeah. Particularly the best over on

16:02 TikTok. She jumped on there and do that

16:04 heap there. And thank you to the other 90

16:07 people who have now joined us on TikTok.

16:09 I have a few more friends, but keep it going.

16:12 We are back on TikTok 2 dot crime dot besties.

16:16 Come join us over there. The parties are happening.

16:19 Yes, there's a few of us there. Now we're starting to build that

16:21 back up. So we just need a post to go

16:24 viral like we did last. Time, but doesn't nothing.

16:26 No, nothing. TikTok changed kill us.

16:28 I don't know if you're my friend anymore.

16:29 I don't know. Thank you to Roo for a case

16:33 suggestion. Yes, Annie, Elizabeth and her

16:35 bestie. So she shared our she said she

16:38 found us recently has been listening to our back catalog

16:41 and she sent a link to our show to her best friend, which is

16:45 like literally one of the best things you can do to help us get

16:48 our show out there. So thank you.

16:49 The best friend will love you. And she's like she said to her

16:52 bestie, who does this remind you of?

16:55 So welcome. All the crazy mental people out

16:57 there like us. Yeah, Join us.

16:59 Yeah, so and then also, Oh my God, so at work this week, do

17:04 you tell your workplace is quite small?

17:07 But does everyone know that you do this podcast?

17:12 Yeah, currently I think so. Well, in the broader sense of my

17:15 work, definitely not. OK, OK.

17:17 Yeah, yeah, I have not. I haven't told them I know.

17:22 So at my work, like the few, you know, the people I talk to all

17:25 the time, they obviously yes, Yeah, I was.

17:27 I had my door shut. I had a meeting the other day.

17:29 I had my office door shut and I finished the meeting, opened the

17:33 door, and there was a work colleague standing outside my

17:36 door and she's like, I thought I knew you, I thought.

17:39 I knew. You.

17:40 I love it. And I was like, oh, God, what

17:42 have I done now? Yeah.

17:43 And she's like, I just found out that you've got a podcast and

17:47 I'm like, oh, who told you? And she's like, I'm not

17:49 revealing my sources, but then she's gone and told, like, all

17:52 these people about it. And I'm like, oh, I've had to

17:56 say to people, oh, my God, I'm so sorry.

17:58 Like the first 9 episodes, the audio is not very, like, the

18:01 standard response when people find us.

18:03 Yeah. So I should probably do a shout

18:05 out to Portia. Oh, there's a few other work

18:09 friends like Mel, Lisa. I hope you guys enjoy it.

18:14 Oh, it's just when people win. No listen it gives me the hey

18:17 BG. It's a total different level.

18:18 Isn't it? Yeah, it just actually makes me

18:20 want to vomit. It really does.

18:23 All right, let's get into today's case.

18:26 Because this is actually before we get into it, let's do a

18:29 disclaimer here 100. Please take some self-care in

18:33 this. If we get into this and this is

18:35 not the case for you, jump ahead and listen to another episode.

18:39 We will talk about some pretty stuff.

18:41 I'm, I'm, I don't know how comfortable you are even talking

18:43 about some of this stuff. I think we may even graze over

18:45 some of it rather than getting too deep into it because it's

18:48 not good. So there was a lot of this case

18:50 that's been suppressed by the courts for that exact reason.

18:53 So we will be talking about children in this case and pretty

18:56 horrific stuff. Absolutely.

18:58 Please take some time to take some.

19:00 Care of Listen carefully. Like if you, as Meg said, I

19:03 find, and we've said this in previous podcasts, Yeah, we find

19:07 the episodes with kids particularly hard.

19:11 Yeah. And this one's you.

19:13 You can't get worse. So yeah, please, if this isn't

19:17 for you, come back next week. Yeah, Yeah.

19:20 I mean we'll reiterate again when we get to it probably that

19:23 we're about to talk about it again.

19:24 So, yeah. And we also have you just

19:25 missed. Timestamps in our show notes.

19:27 So yeah, if you need to skip ahead, just go and have a look

19:30 at the next section that you might want to listen to.

19:32 For sure. Yeah.

19:33 OK. So what we're discussing today

19:36 are the they're really commonly known as the Greniff Murders.

19:40 Greniff family massacre. Yeah.

19:42 So this happened in Greniff, which is in WA.

19:46 It's about 400 kilometers from Perth and about 24 kilometers.

19:51 The next sort of biggest town that most people would know is

19:54 Geraldton. So it's about 24 KS from

19:58 Geraldton. Not a 15 minute drive.

19:59 Yeah. So it's it's close enough that

20:01 that's the nearest city, that's the nearest sort of town where

20:04 everyone goes to shop and go to school and.

20:06 It's not a huge place, Gerald, and even it's like, I'd say it's

20:09 smaller than like in Melbourne terms, it's probably smaller

20:11 than Geelong. Yes, definitely.

20:13 Has a Kmart but. Yeah, and a target country.

20:16 Yeah, that look, absolutely. But what I'm saying is Greniff

20:21 is a hamlet. It's not even a town.

20:23 And so not many people live there.

20:25 I couldn't get an accurate number of people who live there

20:28 when this happened. I think a lot of us are quite

20:30 transient even in terms of people coming into the area for

20:34 work. I mean, because you're heading

20:35 out that way towards, there's mining towns, you know, things

20:37 like that. You're not far away from that.

20:39 Especially around the time that this happened, I think that was

20:42 probably. In the in the mining specially

20:43 kind of stuff. Yeah, So what happened in

20:48 Greniff was on the 22nd of February 1993, an entire family,

20:55 a mum, her son and her two daughters were murdered

21:00 brutally. Oh, absolutely, beyond brutally.

21:03 We will get into some of the details soon.

21:05 Yeah. What we do know is that the

21:09 victims were Karen McKenzie, who was 31 at the time, Daniel, her

21:14 son, who was 16 at the time, Amara, who was seven, and

21:19 Katrina, who was five, were all murdered in their home.

21:23 And it is. First of all, the fact that an

21:28 entire family is wiped out in one homicidal event is beyond

21:36 comprehension. I mean it is rare for a reason

21:38 like. It's yeah, that's right.

21:39 It just doesn't happen. It just doesn't happen.

21:42 Yeah, I guess we can get into a bit of the background of.

21:48 Karen, Karen in your life? Yeah, for sure.

21:49 I think that's the. Best stuff Karen was born her

21:53 mum and dad her. Her mum's name was Barbara

21:55 Marchant. Her dad, I could not find out.

21:58 I couldn't even find his name. No.

22:00 And I think that there's a reason for that that's not

22:02 spoken about. We did this because there's.

22:04 I mean, I don't want to infer something that's wrong here.

22:06 No, we don't. We don't, we don't know.

22:08 There's stuff that we don't know about her.

22:10 That and there's bits we do know about her and then there's

22:13 someone you don't can't name that's a father.

22:15 Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, it looks, we don't know

22:17 his name, but yeah, obviously she had a father.

22:20 Yeah. She also had a sister named

22:24 Evelyn and two brothers. So they lived in Queensland and

22:28 that's where, that's where Karen grew up.

22:31 Yeah. Karen and her sister and her two

22:33 brothers grew up with her mum, single mum.

22:36 Yeah, most of most of her upbringing, yeah.

22:39 What we do know is that Karen was sexually assaulted by.

22:43 All we know is that it was by a family member.

22:45 That's all that's out there in the press.

22:47 And so was her sister. And as a result of that, they

22:51 really did form. I mean, I guess sisters

22:54 generally, like, often will have a really close bond.

22:56 But I think the trauma that they endured as young girls, like

23:00 everyone is older than than Karen, but they oh, sorry,

23:05 younger than Karen. Sorry, younger than Karen.

23:07 But they were like absolutely bonded by this.

23:12 Yeah, really that there was like trauma bond or whatever you want

23:15 to call it. It really brought them very

23:17 close and very tight knit. The two of them grew up with

23:20 that as their common thing, that they both knew about each other.

23:23 They, they did talk about between themselves, but also it

23:26 just meant that they had this beyond normal bond.

23:29 I think in that sense that they, that they looked out for each

23:32 other. They, they took care of each

23:33 other knowing that's what had happened to each of them.

23:35 So yeah, yeah, tragic in that sense.

23:37 But at the same time, the the thing that came out of it, I

23:39 guess that silver lining to this was this incredible relationship

23:43 that she had with her sister. Arch a type bond.

23:44 Yeah, such a type bond. The way that Evelyn speaks of

23:47 her sister even to this day, it's it's heartbreaking because

23:52 of what happened to her. But it's also like, you

23:55 absolutely get just how much they were.

23:57 They were out there for each other.

23:59 They backed each other 100% all of the time.

24:03 Yeah. When Karen was 13 years of age,

24:06 she fell pregnant. Oh, I.

24:08 Thought she was. 15-O she no, she must have been 14 when she

24:11 fell pregnant, 15 when she gave birth.

24:13 Yeah, right. Sorry.

24:15 See details. Normally I'm all over this shit.

24:19 So she fell pregnant, and I mean teenage pregnancy it.

24:26 Can go very much all over whichever direction it can, you

24:30 know. That's it.

24:31 It did 'cause rift in their family in that her mum didn't

24:35 think it was OK for her to be pregnant at that age.

24:39 And I think, I don't know if she was kicked out of the house or

24:42 whether she decided to leave, but she needed to get out of the

24:45 family home and she did that. Now, I do not know how a girl of

24:51 14 slash 15 could have the wherewithal to establish a home

24:59 for herself and her unborn or newly born child without the

25:04 support of the father because he had no involvement in this

25:07 whatsoever aside from being a sperm donor.

25:10 And she did her best. Yeah.

25:14 For two years, yeah. And then when Daniel was 2.

25:18 So Daniel was born when he was two years of age, she actually

25:21 just couldn't do it anymore. She was.

25:24 She had no money. She had no support.

25:27 She was at the end of her tether.

25:28 When I say she had no support, she still had contact with her

25:31 mum and her sister and her brothers.

25:32 Yeah, but she was still living on her own.

25:35 Yeah. With a young like I just think

25:37 back to me with a 2 year old and I was 30.

25:39 Something yeah, I know. And that was sort of fucking

25:42 hard. I mean, if a teenage parent is

25:44 going to make it, I mean, it's really gonna be somewhere where

25:48 they're very highly supported. And I think personally, I think

25:51 inside the, you know, a nuclear family and home with, you know,

25:56 grandparents support at that age.

25:57 I mean, 'cause she better, you know, say go to school or work

26:00 or whatever, you need childcare, you need support.

26:02 And so good on her for giving it a go.

26:05 And I mean, the fact that she made it two years, I mean, look,

26:08 it would have been tough, I'm sure.

26:10 And so I'm sure there's stuff that went on.

26:11 I am certain of that because she was fucking 15.

26:14 So I mean, as much as, like, it was kind of inevitable, I think

26:19 that this is where it ended up because it wasn't.

26:22 Yeah, just say she had support, but not enough.

26:24 Like, in that sense, not for 15 years.

26:26 I mean, at the time, it could have been her being, you know,

26:28 stubborn, all these sorts of things, saying I'm not gonna

26:30 live with you, I'm gonna do this on my own.

26:31 We don't know what the decision was there of why that came

26:34 about. But at the end of the day, a 15

26:37 year old raising a child, I mean, it's a, it's a baby lip

26:39 raising a baby and so many for so many reasons that she needed

26:43 more support. So I mean, good on her for

26:45 recognising that and, you know, fixing the situation for her son

26:49 and she did the best thing she could for her son at that time.

26:51 So I mean. So what she asked was that her

26:54 mum, Barbara, took custody of Daniel and ended up raising, so

27:00 raising him in her family home. So Barbara and then Evelyn

27:04 Daniels auntie was also part of that because she was a little

27:07 bit younger than Karen. Yeah.

27:09 And was grew up basically almost being a second mother to him.

27:14 Yeah. And she said that, you know, she

27:17 was so emotionally invested in him because, I mean, I feel like

27:22 an auntie's love. Yeah, he's like almost I don't

27:27 know what a grandparents love is like because I'm not obviously

27:29 not a grandparent look old nuts, but fuck off.

27:32 I'm not the old one here. But I feel I feel with my nieces

27:39 and my nephews an absolutely UN like an just an absolute love

27:47 for them. Yep.

27:49 Yeah. And I don't need to parent them.

27:51 No, I just get to have like all the good people have a good

27:53 shit. I don't know, I literally I get

27:55 the. Yeah, and it's awesome.

27:57 I love being an auntie. So I hope that that was the

28:00 experience Evelyn got with Daniel Life.

28:02 I feel like it was from the way she's spoken about it.

28:05 Yeah, because I think Barbara really took on the mothering

28:08 sort of side. Yeah, she lovingly described

28:10 Daniel as a Rascal. A rat bag.

28:13 Yeah, I mean, and from all accounts, he was literally that.

28:16 Like he was cheeky and got into trouble, but heart a really good

28:19 kid, you know, a really. Lovely kid.

28:22 Like, he really cared for the things he cared about.

28:25 Yeah. Didn't like school.

28:27 No, didn't really want to go to school.

28:29 Yeah. So as he was approaching his

28:31 16th birthday, he decided that he wanted to go and live with

28:35 his mum. So in the meantime, Karen had

28:38 actually moved to Perth and like, over to.

28:42 She actually moved to Geraldton originally.

28:44 Yeah. And she met a man by the name

28:47 of. Alan.

28:50 Alan. Well, that's his surname.

28:51 Yeah, and they had two daughters.

28:55 So they had Amara and Katrina. Yeah.

28:58 And their relationship broke down, I think when Katrina was

29:01 about two years of age. Something like that.

29:03 Yeah. He still had involvement in the

29:05 girls lives. It wasn't like he never saw

29:07 them. But Karen became their primary

29:10 carer. Yeah.

29:11 So in order to establish herself, and I think fucking

29:14 hats off to this woman because she'd had childhood abuse, she'd

29:19 had shit relationships. I think her relationship with

29:24 this Ellen bloke was not terrible.

29:26 Yeah, but it obviously ended. Yeah.

29:28 So you know, she's then left on her own again with two young

29:31 girls and she decided to go and purchase whatever she could buy.

29:37 And that is what led her to Granith.

29:39 Because it is literally in the middle of nowhere.

29:42 Last stop Larimer kind of vibes. Maybe not quite that.

29:45 Quiet. Not quite.

29:46 But but what I'm saying is real estate was cheap out there.

29:49 Yeah, she paid 40 grand for this weather board house that was

29:53 very rundown, needed work like it was lottery.

29:55 It was livable, but it was not. Well, yeah, borderline.

29:58 Borderline. Livable.

29:59 Like, I think, I think she had massive plans for this house.

30:02 Yeah, but it it was basically when she bought it, it was as

30:06 is. Yeah.

30:06 So I'm talking there was junk in the yard.

30:09 There's the shed was full of shit.

30:11 Yeah. It was quite rundown.

30:13 Yeah. I mean, it had running water and

30:15 it had a roof. You know, I think it was.

30:19 It needed a lot of work, but it was.

30:21 She but she and she had this idea of what she wanted to do

30:24 and she was going to make it a home for her and her kids.

30:26 And that's what you know, she had this.

30:28 I really like respect that. Oh sane.

30:31 She was trying to make a go of it.

30:32 Mm hmm. In amongst all that though, of

30:34 like making a go of it with her family work.

30:36 So at this point she's living with her two kids in the home

30:39 and two daughters in Greta. Yep.

30:41 And Daniel is living over in Queensland with his grandma, but

30:44 he decides he wants to go over and live with his mum, which

30:48 Karen was ecstatic about. This was huge.

30:50 You have all the kids under 1 roof.

30:52 Was there room for them all? Fuck yeah.

30:53 We'll make room. Like, you know, that's the.

30:55 Girls can share we'll you know she lived out she.

30:57 Slept out on the living room floor, you know, kind of stuff

30:59 on a mattress. She was like, yeah, yes, come

31:01 and live with us. So, you know, as much as all

31:04 this was and she was, she was being a really great mum and,

31:07 and people at the school and everything, Yeah, acknowledged

31:09 that doing all those right things.

31:12 But she did have a foot in slightly into another world,

31:17 which was also her comfort zone, I think too, Yeah, of a certain

31:20 group of people and people who dabbled in drugs, you know,

31:24 probably more so than she did on the regular.

31:26 But she certainly was sort of on what, you know, 1 foot

31:29 definitely with being a mum and 1 foot in this scene of like,

31:32 you know, partying and drugs and stuff and alcohol.

31:36 So. But I mean, in that area, that's

31:38 kind of who you mean. What?

31:39 But also what the? Fuck else do you do?

31:41 What else do you do? How do you socialize?

31:43 I guess So what? What ended up happening was for

31:46 Daniel's 16th birthday, he asked Barbara for a bus ticket.

31:50 Yeah, to go for bus in Queensland over to Geraldton,

31:55 which is literally a three day trip.

31:57 Yeah, it's massive. It's a huge.

32:00 And there's like, and you see fuck all on that trip.

32:02 Yeah, it's like red pretty much the whole way home.

32:05 I mean, that's off to him for doing that.

32:07 Like I just think I, I put myself in his shoes and I'm

32:10 like, imagine being on that. Bus like the excitement of that

32:13 area. Yeah, I mean, this is in the

32:14 1990s, Ninety three, I think end of 1992.

32:18 He went there 'cause he got there before.

32:19 Christmas. Yes, that's right.

32:20 And he enrolled himself into the high school at Geraldton.

32:25 Now, he hadn't been going to school in Queensland.

32:27 No, I think he wanted a fresh start.

32:29 He wanted to try again. He.

32:31 Was like, I'm gonna want to finish year 12 and make a go of

32:34 it. That was his whole play.

32:35 He had this. I think it's almost like Karen's

32:37 dream, like, was infectious to me.

32:39 Like, if mom's gonna make a go of it over there, I want to be

32:41 there, too. And I want to make a go of it as

32:42 well. If she thinks she can do it

32:43 there, I will, too. Yeah.

32:45 Which is so beautiful for a family.

32:46 I love it. I love that.

32:47 Yeah. So yeah, he rolled it and rolled

32:49 himself in school and had. And he was attending in those

32:52 early days of going back to the school year starting.

32:55 Yeah. He'd started at the local, local

32:57 high school and with intentions of making something not he was

33:00 never going to go, you know, do brilliant things like in terms

33:02 of his what he was going to what a task score or into score,

33:05 whatever. It's whatever it was then, yeah,

33:07 you know, but he was going to make a go of it and get get the

33:09 certificate he needed, do the next thing in life.

33:12 So good on him. Yeah, he was trying to make.

33:14 Himself together again, just like his Mama.

33:17 Probably so, but as you said, I think another like maybe a

33:22 benefit of Daniel coming over for Karen was the fact that he

33:27 was in the home. He was, he was a responsible

33:29 boy. Like he, Karen, felt very

33:32 comfortable leaving his sisters in his care.

33:37 And although he hadn't been there that long, he was looking

33:41 after them every now and again for Karen.

33:44 So he was helping out when she worked and did, like, I think

33:47 she was doing like little odd jobs and just whatever came up

33:50 she would do. Yeah.

33:52 And he would help out with the girls, pick them up, bring them

33:56 home on the bus, pick them up from school.

33:58 I mean, bring them home on the bus.

33:59 And on this particular night, so the night, the Friday night

34:03 before the murders took place, Karen was invited to a friend's

34:07 place, I think it was in Geraldton.

34:10 Yeah. And the IT was a house party.

34:14 Well, they like to call it a gathering instead of a.

34:17 Party. Oh, sorry, sorry, A Gav.

34:19 Because it wasn't. It wasn't like a huge thing.

34:21 It was a smaller group of people.

34:23 It was, yeah. It wasn't a raving night,

34:25 although at the same time shouldn't get home until 5:00

34:28 AM. See, this is what I'm saying

34:29 like 5:00 AM to me. I'm like, Oh my God, the thought

34:32 of nothing. Whatever happens after midnight,

34:33 people. Nope.

34:34 Not that anything happened this night particularly, but like,

34:38 yeah, but she didn't yeah, she was, she was a stayer at the at

34:41 this do this gathering. So.

34:44 I think she was a stayer because she'd partaken.

34:46 In a well, this is the thing what what do you I mean, we I've

34:48 always had that opinion of like people that stay out that late

34:50 at night. You clearly aren't just drinking

34:52 alcohol. Just stay that late, no?

34:54 Because if you were drinking alcohol, you would have been

34:56 passed out somewhere. Yeah, probably.

34:58 So we know she'd partaken in some drug taking.

35:02 Now, from everything I've read and heard, she was a

35:07 recreational drug user. It wasn't something that she did

35:12 all the time. Whether she was addicted or not,

35:16 I I can't comment to that. But it was, yeah, something she

35:22 partook in and she did on this particular night.

35:24 And alcohol. Many other people at this

35:26 gathering. I think everyone else at the

35:28 gathering, it came to the end of the night and there were, you

35:33 know, several people still left at 5:00 in the morning.

35:36 Yeah. And somebody offered to give her

35:39 a lift home. Now, earlier in the evening the

35:43 night before, I guess she'd actually had a really heated

35:48 disagreement with this person. No one can like really remember

35:51 what it was over, but there was a a fairly rowdy.

35:57 Disagreement. Yeah, I think maybe more than a

36:00 disagreement, would you say? Like, I think they were yelling

36:02 at each other. I think they've got quite

36:04 heated. But by the time 5:00 rolled

36:07 around and and Karen was ready to go home, she was happy to go

36:10 home with this guy. So this is a man by the name of

36:13 Bill. Well, he made the statement that

36:15 he doesn't like to stay at a party that is, or gathering a

36:19 gab, OK, That where there's where's where people are getting

36:23 angry and stuff and there's so, you know.

36:26 But he was. Partaking.

36:28 A nap. OK, yeah.

36:29 So he was ready to go. So they both left together, OK.

36:33 And they were friends. They had.

36:34 They hung out. Molly Oh, many times.

36:36 Before he'd been to the house many times.

36:38 Yeah. He was a friend of hers.

36:39 Yeah. Yeah.

36:40 So he drove her home and now she lived, as you said, in Greniff.

36:45 She lived on a really remote Rd. Well, even in the remote.

36:48 Road. It was off of that like so.

36:50 The address itself was 16 Georgina Road.

36:55 Yeah, but to get to the access of this house you have to go

36:59 down a side Rd., not Georgina Road to get to her property.

37:03 Yeah. It was like, it was like

37:04 essentially a really long driveway.

37:06 Yeah. Essentially to get to her house.

37:08 Yeah. And the.

37:09 Only people that have been there.

37:11 Knew where it was because from Georgina Rd. yeah, you can't see

37:14 a dwelling because it's kind of over the back of like a hump

37:17 yeah. And you can see that in the

37:18 photos, like you can say, Oh yeah, of course, nobody would be

37:20 able to see that house from the road.

37:22 Yes, so and he has gone there now.

37:25 Neighbors report seeing a car come at early in the morning

37:30 now. 5:00 AM ish. Yep, got there.

37:32 There's a lot of farmland around and so farmers were up tending

37:35 to their, I don't know, the. Start of their day.

37:37 Yeah, they're, I don't know, cows, cows and so.

37:42 Sheep because he was a farm hand.

37:44 He was a guy. Hand.

37:45 So he was probably heading out to Sheesham Shees.

37:47 Oh, Jesus. You've only had 110 guys, Just

37:52 letting you know, we're still recording in the evenings, but

37:54 from next week we're going back to recording during the day.

37:56 So then we know. Well, we'll be whining more

37:58 afterwards. Yeah, afterwards.

38:02 So we won't be slurring our words from next week.

38:03 Go on. Shear some sheep.

38:05 Well done. You got it.

38:08 Yeah. So the farmers attest to the

38:10 fact that they saw a car drop Karen off.

38:13 Yeah. And then?

38:15 Well, he was there about 11 AM 11 AM.

38:18 He was seen exiting the property.

38:19 Yeah. So, OK, so he's been there,

38:22 operated it is. So he's been in her house then

38:26 for six hours, 6, a bit under 6 hours because I think they got

38:31 home at like 530 something and then he's left at 11.

38:35 OK. What happened in that 5 1/2

38:38 hours? We don't know.

38:40 We actually don't know, no. The day goes on.

38:43 Nothing to note, really. Nothing we like.

38:46 Yeah, yeah, everyone's fine. Everyone's OK.

38:48 Yeah. The day goes on.

38:51 It all goes as it does. It's Saturday, so the kids don't

38:55 have school. No one needs to be up early to

38:56 be fairing people anywhere. And the day goes on as it does.

39:01 Yeah. Then that night, the girls go to

39:06 bed at their normal time. Everything's great.

39:09 Everything's fine and dandy. Yeah.

39:11 Karen, at some point during the night also goes to bed.

39:14 As you mentioned before, she was sleeping in the lounge room so

39:17 that Daniel could have his own space in a, a room where he can

39:19 close the door, which is a very important for a teenager.

39:22 Yeah. And then Daniel, though, being

39:27 16 years of age at the time, he was up all night sleeping all

39:32 day, especially on a Saturday night, Like he typical teenager,

39:35 typical teenager, watching movies, fucking, oh, who knows,

39:39 fucking around on, I don't know, who knows, watching TV.

39:41 Were computers even nothing then?

39:43 No 90. 3 Not really. No 93, no, I don't think out

39:46 there you would have had a computer, would you?

39:48 Not with Internet access, that's for sure.

39:52 Anyway, whatever he was doing, whatever teenagers in 1993 did

39:55 until 3:00 in the morning. Now he notes that.

40:00 Well, this is this is all. Now from here on, this is what

40:04 we think happened. Yeah.

40:06 And it's. I think it's fair to say that

40:11 it's pretty accurate, I think. I think the way things have gone

40:14 about, there's not much dispute about this.

40:16 No. Daniel sees a car, headlights of

40:20 a car, Yeah. Coming up their driveway.

40:23 And he thinks, probably thinks to himself, who the?

40:26 Clock in the morning the. Fuck.

40:28 Is that? Has someone taken the wrong turn

40:31 somewhere? Like, Mum's asleep.

40:33 It's not like someone's coming for her.

40:35 Weird. So he walks out the front of the

40:37 house as this car's approaching the home.

40:42 Now, I would assume the headlights of this car are on,

40:46 which is blinding at 3:00 in the morning in the middle of

40:48 nowhere. You know, it's not like there's

40:50 ambient light anywhere. Somebody gets out of the car.

40:56 Yeah, and approaches him and bludgeons him to death.

41:02 With an axe. Yeah.

41:04 Yeah, like brutally. So brutally that his face is

41:10 unrecognizable. Yeah, OK.

41:12 The actual injuries from him have been suppressed.

41:18 All we know is that it was severe and couldn't be.

41:20 He couldn't be identified from his face.

41:23 Yeah. All right, so I think, I think

41:29 we now should we now go to the next.

41:31 Yeah, well, So what happened that?

41:32 Well, So what happened that night?

41:33 I guess. Yeah.

41:33 OK. This person then entered the

41:35 house and found Karen asleep. In the land on a mattress.

41:41 On a mattress and approaches her and does the same thing to her,

41:45 hits her with this axe brutally to the point where she is, you

41:52 know, convulsing from the this attack.

41:56 She is just he again and again again hitting her until she has

42:00 stops, stops moving and completely is absolutely like

42:03 continues to even hit her once she is dead to ensure she is

42:06 dead. It's bad.

42:07 It's so so. Breezied and brutal.

42:10 Yeah, we now know that this person was.

42:14 Then he went rummaging through the house.

42:16 We know that this was him looking for drugs, knowing that

42:21 Karen was a drug user when hunting for drugs, but couldn't

42:23 find anything of that sort. So we now get to some awful

42:27 stuff. So if you want to tune out now,

42:28 you can tune out now. I mean this is awful as it.

42:30 Is just the point. The thought that it can get

42:32 worse is really full on. Yeah, what he does find in a

42:36 drawer is some cream, some sorbolene, and he takes that

42:41 with him back into the lounge room.

42:43 He repositions Karen onto her stomach and onto her all fours.

42:49 And so he uses the couch as a prop to kind of keep her up on

42:54 all fours. Now we're talking a deceased

42:59 corpse. Yeah.

43:01 That he's positioning in such a manner.

43:03 Yeah. Go on.

43:05 Uses the sobel and cream that he has found to then rape her dead

43:10 body, which is sort of my just horrific at this point.

43:15 Obviously there's still the two young girls in the in the house.

43:19 He then I think, thankfully they didn't wake up.

43:21 This is the thing I think absolutely.

43:23 I think I thankfully neither of them woke up to any of this.

43:27 That he went in first into Amara's room, the seven-year

43:30 old, and again did the exact same thing to her and then moved

43:36 on from her into young Katrina's room, the five year old and

43:40 again brutally murdered her with the axe as well.

43:44 He has then left with the axe and the cream that he used and

43:50 gone back to the car, exited the same and left.

43:54 I think it's also, I think we need to mention, yeah, we know

43:58 that Amara's deceased body was also sexually assaulted.

44:02 I think we just need to say that for completeness because and

44:06 also to understand. I mean, this is brutal to the

44:09 NTH degree anyway, but the depravity of this, She was seven

44:14 years of age. I can't even, we don't know the

44:19 extent of it. I think honestly, thank God we

44:22 don't know because. We know more about Karen and her

44:28 yeah death because she was an was an adult anything to do with

44:32 the kids underage was suppressed completely so but we can we can

44:37 only we're making we can make assumptions based on the charges

44:39 that this person later received that we know what.

44:43 Potentially happened, yeah. Yeah, but it's just horrific

44:47 that even. Yeah, just absolutely

44:49 disgusting. Yeah.

44:50 So this person's left the scene. That's that.

44:53 The following day. So there's the same morning.

44:56 Yeah. The same morning.

44:57 Sorry. Midday of of that Sunday.

44:59 Yeah. So 3:00 AM is when this all

45:02 occurred. Midday of that same day on the

45:04 Sunday, Two friends of Karen's, I'm gonna get their names, Ron,

45:10 Ron and Dina were in the car. They were driving to Karen's

45:15 because they were going there to help her fix some things for the

45:18 house that she was planning on with fixing up this place and

45:21 everything. And Ron had really kindly

45:23 offered to help her out and do a few odd jobs and things to fix

45:26 up some stuff. I think Ron was quite handy.

45:29 Yeah. And so and Karen just needed

45:32 some help, you know, doing the things that you're not quite

45:34 sure how to do yourself. Well I just sent a meme to my

45:36 very good friend recently and said no I don't need a husband,

45:40 my best friend has one. Thanks Matt.

45:46 Like there. Are just some things that I

45:50 don't know you need 2. People help or you need, you

45:52 need someone. Who knows what?

45:54 They're doing, yes. No, that's hard anyway.

45:57 Yes, all good. So yeah, hey, they're on their

45:59 way over to help out, so which is brilliant.

46:01 So but they pull up in the driveway and they see laying in

46:07 the driveway. Well, they assumed was Daniel

46:10 because. And they were like, oh, he's 16,

46:12 what is he doing? Yeah.

46:13 Mind you. Mind you, he's 16 years old.

46:15 He's 6 foot. Tall.

46:16 Yeah, he was very tall. Very well built, like quite.

46:19 Yeah, solidly. So I think he'd be visually, as

46:23 in his body shape would be instantly recognisable.

46:26 Yeah, yeah. Although so he has, this guy's

46:28 only met Daniel a couple of times.

46:30 I mean he's only been in this in the sub, in the in the state.

46:33 Not even three months. Yeah, very.

46:35 I think he met him maybe two or three times briefly at moments,

46:38 you know, So he was approaching, he saw him laying on the road

46:43 and was like, oh, what's Daniel doing kind of thing.

46:45 Got out of the car and as he took a couple of steps, he

46:49 realised that Daniel wasn't playing a joke or anything or

46:52 doing anything silly. He realized he was like, I don't

46:55 even actually know if it's Daniel.

46:58 It just it was unrecognizable to him, but clearly not OK.

47:02 And so he's yelling at his wife Dana to get back in the car

47:06 because he was really petrified of her saying what he had just

47:09 seen. No one else should have to say

47:10 it kind of thing. He's telling her to get back in

47:12 the car and yelling out to Karen in the house to see if he could

47:15 get a response because he's not knowing what what has gone on

47:18 here. No response.

47:19 Obviously he gets. His the dog was barking.

47:22 The dog was barking going back of the house, Yeah.

47:25 And so he's like, something's going on here.

47:27 They weren't sure if there's someone still in the house

47:30 perpetrating more or what the goal is, is this an active thing

47:33 or what? So his wife is yelling at let's,

47:36 we need to call the police. Like this isn't OK.

47:39 Now this is 1993 mobile phones. No, Also rural area.

47:43 There is hundreds of metres between houses.

47:46 So they get in the car and they drive back down the driveway and

47:48 head for the and the neighbors. They go to two separate houses

47:51 which are fairly far away from each other towards town just and

47:55 they jump out of the car and run into both these houses and no

47:57 one is home. They eventually get to this

47:59 museum where they finally run inside this business and they

48:02 call from there, say can we use the phone, we need to call the

48:04 police. They finally call the police and

48:07 they tell them about Daniel because that's all they know at

48:09 this point that this that will let you know that there's this

48:12 body out on the road and it's brutally, brutally been

48:15 attacked. It's bad.

48:17 I don't. There's three other people in

48:19 this family and I don't know where they are.

48:21 Called out to them. Yeah, they're not.

48:23 Not answering. So the cops are onto this

48:26 immediately. They dispatch A-Team.

48:28 Now I have to say this, this case, I mean, we have done

48:31 plenty of cases where cops have fucked.

48:33 Up our investigation. I've actually got that written

48:35 in my notes. I want to praise the Western

48:38 Australian police, the Geraldton police particularly, and then

48:41 also the Perth CBD police that came into this. 100.

48:46 Holy cow, did they do everything right?

48:49 Everything, everything. So they immediately get on the

48:52 scene and they've immediately contacted bigger cops from from

48:56 Perth to come up as well because it's, it's a 3-4 hour drive from

48:59 Perth to where they are. Yeah.

49:01 So I mean, I've done the drive. It's not an easy drive either.

49:03 So they've got to get, you know, detectives and stuff up there

49:05 from Perth. But they've but and.

49:06 Equipment like they needed, they knew they needed forensics, they

49:09 needed, you know, there was, it wasn't just sending up a cop

49:12 car, no sending up. They need to get all the gear.

49:14 And get everyone together because.

49:16 The thing is. But The thing is that the cops

49:18 from Geraldton was so good, they immediately knew they're dealing

49:22 with an outdoor scene, which is hard to preserve in the best of

49:26 times. And we're talking heavier heat.

49:29 And wind now in that outdoor scene 100% and they preserved as

49:33 best they possibly could, tire marks, foot, foot marks,

49:38 everything outdoors as much as they could.

49:40 That was their first priority. Although I have to say when they

49:42 got there, obviously they've got to clear the house and make sure

49:44 there's no perpetrator in the house, all those sorts of

49:46 things, but. Which they did.

49:47 They did do so, which I'll go to the boat.

49:50 Yeah, talked. About that in a SEC, yeah.

49:51 But. Yeah.

49:52 So when they arrived, they obviously went into the house

49:56 and entered in and discovered unfortunately poor Karen

50:00 deceased in the living room. I mean, these police officers

50:03 have they saw the worst of the worst this day.

50:05 This is this is damaging to them for life now as well.

50:08 They've all seen things they shouldn't have to say.

50:10 They've all got kids potentially of, you know, similar ages to

50:13 between a 16 year old and the young girls, five and seven.

50:17 You can't tell me that majority of those cops don't have kids.

50:20 They know those. Ages, you know, actually some of

50:22 them are on record having said. That Yeah.

50:24 So they've gone in. They've found, unfortunately, as

50:26 they've, you know, clear the house, they find the two young

50:29 girls as well dead in their beds, just absolutely horrific.

50:33 But they get to work immediately of the inside and the outside.

50:37 First the outside, as I said, they they got onto that real

50:40 quick Inside. They again preserve things where

50:44 they can until the big cops arrive.

50:47 Such an amazing job. They actually did seven days

50:50 worth of a grid search of the external area of the house from

50:54 like a couple 100 meters away looking for weapons or anything

50:59 they could find. Any of notes like anything at

51:02 all Yeah, just amazing police. Oh incredible and old fat like

51:06 good old fashioned police work like the boots on the ground.

51:09 Yeah. Doing what they needed to do,

51:10 going through a process. Yeah.

51:12 And really hitting the mark like they they I couldn't agree with

51:17 you more. They were exceptional.

51:20 So I guess by the time the Perth branch sort of came up and

51:25 started their processes, yeah, more and more things were

51:30 becoming evident. So we've got the forensics team

51:33 there who were looking for any evidence, any forensic evidence

51:38 that they could find. Now part of that was, I mean

51:41 we're talking 1993 as you mentioned, this is before DNA

51:46 was really at it's like cutting. Edge only a little bit.

51:49 It seems to like to do. But they knew what they needed

51:51 to do to at least collect what they needed to collect and that

51:56 kind of thing. So what they did was they

51:59 they've removed the bodies from the scene and taken them to

52:02 Perth for autopsy. Yeah, during this process,

52:06 during the autopsies, especially of Karen and then I assume

52:11 tomorrow as well. But what they found on her body

52:14 was some sort of like greasy Marks and prints.

52:18 And in in the vaginal area as well, they found those.

52:21 That's it. And so they are looking then

52:24 the, the, the coroner or the, the, the forensic pathologist

52:29 who was performing the autopsy was like, well, what is this

52:33 greasy substance? We need to figure out what that

52:35 is that might help. Yeah.

52:37 So what they've done is they've taken a sample of, of what they

52:40 found and they're like basically in communications with all of

52:46 the forensics team who are up at up on site still at the house.

52:51 And they are that they're looking for whatever they're

52:55 looking for. So what the pathologist thinks

52:58 is that what they found is something like a moisturizer, A

53:01 sorbolene, something like that. They test what they found in

53:06 Karen's vaginal cavity and they determine that.

53:12 So they have like 80 or something reference samples in

53:16 the laboratory of different creams, different things that it

53:18 could be. They ran that sample against

53:21 every one of those 80 things and it didn't peak.

53:25 They then said to the forensics team her up at her house, we're

53:29 kind of looking for something like some kind of cream, some

53:33 kind of maybe moisturizer, sorboline.

53:35 We're not really sure we need to find that so we can test it

53:39 against what we found and what the forensics team were doing

53:43 was incredible work. So first of all, they did find

53:48 on a wall panel which was near the door.

53:51 So the inference is that the perpetrator had actually placed

53:55 their hand against this wall as they were either opening or

53:58 shutting a door well. They had actually placed their,

54:00 their, their, their palm down. That actually what it was, was a

54:04 print of what what you call writers palm.

54:07 So it's when you think about when you're writing what part of

54:10 your hand touches the page, they call that a that that's a palm

54:14 print. It's still, it's part of your

54:16 palm, but it's actually that side view basically of your hand

54:19 that. Yeah, that that's, it wasn't

54:20 like a, a full hand. Yeah.

54:22 So it's even more different. They do actually, when they

54:25 fingerprint you, if you're ever arrested, they do fingerprint

54:28 that part of your hand now as well 'cause it's.

54:31 But back in the day, they didn't.

54:32 No, no, no. OK.

54:33 But yeah, that was actually made it a little bit more difficult

54:35 because it was just that side of the palm, not a full palm print.

54:39 But again, to the credit of those forensic offices, yeah,

54:42 they cut that bit of wall out. Yeah.

54:44 And sent it to the laboratory for preservation, if nothing

54:48 else. Yeah.

54:49 And then further testing. Yeah, they also found when they

54:51 they used a blue light and went through the house, this was a

54:55 few days later. And what they actually also

54:58 found was some greasy finger marks on the door.

55:00 Yeah. And this time it was actually

55:02 the the tips of, of fingers. Yeah.

55:05 Right. So I'm talking the top tips of

55:07 fingers, like somebody's sort of pushed the door shut with their

55:11 fingertips. Yeah.

55:12 Right. Again, not something that is

55:14 usually taken in a fingerprint. Yeah, when you're fingerprinting

55:19 in a potential suspect. Yeah.

55:22 Again, they've removed that entire door, yeah, and sent it

55:25 down to the laboratory for preservation and potential

55:29 further testing. And the the significant.

55:31 God, they did. Oh.

55:31 This is it because the significance of this is like,

55:35 people can come and go in your house all the day, all day long,

55:36 and, you know, put fingerprints everywhere.

55:38 Yeah, there could be fingerprints in that House of

55:40 all sorts of people who did not murder these people.

55:42 That's right. So but the significance of the

55:44 fact that these are fingerprints in a greasy substance, if they

55:48 can prove that that greasy substance is the same greasy

55:52 substance they can find on the bodies that places that person

55:57 in this scene at that time. This isn't someone who has just

56:01 been over for a cuppa, you know, and close the door and wash, you

56:05 know, wash their hands with some soapy stuff and then close the

56:08 door with a greasy substance. You know, this is then the exact

56:12 same stuff on them when they've pushed the door or whatever.

56:16 That's right. As they have, unfortunately,

56:19 also using the perpetration of their acts on Karen and little

56:24 girls. So yeah, there's this is really

56:28 significant that if they can prove either those these two

56:31 things connect up, they've got the person in some sort of

56:35 fingerprint potentially. That's it.

56:37 Yeah. So I guess the police are then

56:39 right. Where do we start?

56:40 We start with the father of those two girls.

56:43 So the reason being they'd split up not that long before, really.

56:48 I mean, it was a few years, but it was.

56:52 They still had contact. Yeah.

56:53 And so, you know, I guess that's a very likely place to start.

56:57 But what he found was that he was actually water trapped.

57:03 Yeah. Up further north in WA he was

57:07 working I think in the mines. Was he?

57:10 I think so. Something like that.

57:11 But he was literally waterlogged where he was.

57:14 He wanted to get back to, yeah, wherever he lived at the time,

57:17 but he actually couldn't even get home because he was.

57:19 I think he had a new partner himself and all those sorts of

57:21 things that he was like. Yeah, I need to get home.

57:23 So he he's he had power. Guy was watertight, am I right?

57:28 So. So it wasn't him.

57:32 Yeah. Apparently the police put

57:33 together a list of 70 potential suspects.

57:36 Yeah. Within a couple of days.

57:38 Yeah. So again, was attesting to their

57:39 amazing. This is it.

57:40 They did not let any rock go unturned.

57:43 No, it was. There was also another guy she

57:45 had just recently split up from and a boat by the name of Sean

57:49 Easto, I think. Sean.

57:50 Yep, Yep. So he was checked off and you

57:53 know, he had a alibi so he wasn't around.

57:56 But he, like they literally had hardly broken up just before,

57:58 just before Valentine's Day. Was literally on Valentine's

58:01 Day. So she broke up with him.

58:02 This was an interesting part of the story.

58:04 She sent him flowers. Yeah, with a breakup note.

58:07 But didn't name herself. No, he knew who.

58:09 I mean, he knew of. Course, but yeah, and all she

58:12 said was bye on it. He.

58:13 Went bye the message. Was real weird, like it was a

58:15 real like poem but. Not, not.

58:18 It was weird. But anyway, she broke up with

58:20 him. It's like Carrie Big broke up

58:22 with me on a poster note. But yeah, broke up with me on a

58:24 poster note. Yeah, a bit like that.

58:26 Yeah. At least she sent him flowers, I

58:28 guess. Quite odd, Quite, quite odd.

58:32 But anyway, yes. So they'd broken up.

58:33 He had again. He had an alibi.

58:35 Yeah, yeah. So the police are like, OK,

58:38 let's think about other known people to Karen.

58:43 Yeah. And they found out through

58:45 talking to friends and whatever that she'd been at this party on

58:47 the Friday night. Yeah.

58:48 So they interviewed everybody at the party.

58:51 They found out about the fight that Graham, oh sorry, that Bill

58:55 and Karen had had. Yeah, they fingerprinted

58:59 everyone at the party. This is the thing that everyone,

59:02 what an interesting thing that came out of this was that

59:05 everyone in the town and Geraldton and in like broader

59:08 were mortified by what had gone on here.

59:10 This was not normal at all. What had occurred.

59:13 People were really, really beside themselves about what had

59:16 occurred. Yeah, police were very adamant

59:18 that this was targeted because how else would you find her

59:21 property? This was, you know, so people

59:23 they were sort of putting out there to the general public of

59:25 like, you don't have it. There's no concern for general

59:27 people, you know, like that there's some maniac around were

59:30 freaked out. I would definitely be, I mean no

59:32 matter of that, but police were very convinced that this was

59:35 someone she knew and targeted like so.

59:37 It wasn't like there was some axe wielding maniac going.

59:40 Around, I mean they were doing. This but it wasn't maniac, but

59:43 but targeting random. That's right.

59:45 So there was that side of it, but the general community were

59:49 just so mortified that people that were being interviewed were

59:52 like, take my fingerprints, you know, no one was backing away

59:56 from that. Everyone was very much like,

59:58 take my fingerprints and what else can we do to help you?

1:00:00 People were ringing in with tips like that.

1:00:03 I've seen, I saw Karen last week talking to a guy who was a

1:00:06 fisherman. He'd be out now on a boat.

1:00:07 But you can get in touch with him.

1:00:09 I know she spoke with him. You know, like they, they

1:00:11 tracked down. That's why they ended up with

1:00:13 quite a long list because people were so forthcoming with wanting

1:00:17 to help the investigation. So they sort of say like, you

1:00:21 know, like the drug community around Geraldton, like, you

1:00:23 know, those kind of the same sort of ilk of what Karen was

1:00:26 hanging out with. We're literally coming and

1:00:28 going. I don't care.

1:00:29 You can tell me I'm in trouble for taking ecstasy or taking

1:00:31 whatever at this party. I'll tell you about it as long

1:00:35 as we can get to a point where we find who did this, You know,

1:00:37 so I, I was really incredible how the people just really

1:00:42 rallied. Yeah.

1:00:43 To try and help this investigation.

1:00:45 Yeah, because everyone was like, this is fucked up.

1:00:48 Yeah, I mean, it's so fucked up and fucked up, Yeah.

1:00:51 So we're at the point now where the police are like, OK, let's

1:00:55 start eliminating people. Yeah.

1:00:57 And they come across Bill, and so will you.

1:01:02 Should we trick Bill Mitchell? Yeah, so, well, should we start

1:01:06 with the fact that randomly the police get a phone call from

1:01:11 who? The guy who happened to be the

1:01:13 host of the party where Karen went?

1:01:15 Yep. So this guy rings up and he

1:01:18 goes, I've just got home from being out for the day and I've

1:01:23 been broken into in my house and there's blood like all through

1:01:26 my house. Like trail of blood through my

1:01:28 house. Now, at this point, the police

1:01:30 had been there and interviewed him, Yeah.

1:01:31 He'd already like he's Yeah, he's absolutely.

1:01:33 Like we know he's not even well for as far as the investigation

1:01:37 had got at that point, he was not a suspect.

1:01:39 No, that's right. So he's, yeah, ringing, saying,

1:01:42 like, I've been broken into. This is, like, bad.

1:01:44 The cops are, like, on it. They're, like, out there, like,

1:01:46 let's get this checked out. And they rock up and find a

1:01:48 pretty gruesome scene. Yeah, There's blood trailed

1:01:51 throughout this house. They do find on the kitchen

1:01:53 table a set of keys and a wallet.

1:01:56 And inside the wallet is ID to Bill.

1:01:59 Bill Mitchell now they know who this Bill Mitchell is in that

1:02:03 they have interviewed him also in relation to the fact that he

1:02:05 was at this party and he was the last one who saw Karen live

1:02:08 because they know that he was on a driver home, all these things.

1:02:11 And they're like, holy shit, like now he's been murdered.

1:02:13 Like it was that kind of level of blood that could Bill have,

1:02:17 you know, been murdered here. What the hell?

1:02:18 So they're they're checking they're like, what that what's

1:02:20 going on? And all of a sudden, stumbling

1:02:23 through the back door, yelling and everything, comes Phil

1:02:27 Mitchell. Naked.

1:02:28 Naked. In a blood soaked towel, yeah,

1:02:31 but blood soaked like. Blood soaked around his waist

1:02:36 and he's it tells this story of that he had rocked up to his

1:02:41 mate's place, knocked on the door to see him.

1:02:43 And as he's done that, three guys have come out of nowhere

1:02:46 and attacked him and said to him, we know that the host of

1:02:51 the party was the person who murdered Karen.

1:02:54 Tell us where he is. Tell us where he is.

1:02:56 And he's like, I don't know where he is.

1:02:57 Like, you know, I don't know where he is.

1:02:59 So to try and get him to talk, these guys have pulled out a

1:03:02 filleting knife and tried to chop his Dick off.

1:03:07 And that's why he's bleeding so extensively.

1:03:10 They bailed this guy up and get him to the hospital.

1:03:11 Like, it's bad. It's real bad.

1:03:14 But the cops are like, no sound right?

1:03:17 This does not sound. Sound really weird.

1:03:19 So they put a fair bit of pressure on him in this

1:03:21 situation of, like, going tell us more, tell us what really

1:03:24 what Like what, what actually happened.

1:03:28 Eventually when they're at the hospital and everything's a bit

1:03:30 more calmer and things have come down being treated.

1:03:33 Yeah. He admits to the fact that he

1:03:34 made-up the story. OK no shit, but he still chopped

1:03:38 your Dick off like. What's going on here?

1:03:40 Not did he? Well, not fully, no, because

1:03:42 they managed to re establish. Thank God.

1:03:44 Oh well. Well, really.

1:03:46 No, no being sarcastic. I hope so.

1:03:49 He should have chopped his fucking Dick off.

1:03:50 That yeah, for, for him anyway, he he tells them that basically

1:03:56 what he was trying to do by chopping his Dick off was trying

1:03:59 to commit suicide for personal reasons.

1:04:03 To which the cops are like OK mate this is all a bit not

1:04:07 right. Do you want to actually tell us

1:04:09 what's going on? Yeah, but that's what they got

1:04:11 out of him from the day. Next thing they get is a phone

1:04:16 call from a caravan park in Geraldton and the police get

1:04:21 this phone call saying, look, just because of what's happened

1:04:25 in Greniff, I really, we really feel that you need to be

1:04:29 notified of this. It just is weird and could be

1:04:31 connected. Maybe maybe we have a caravan

1:04:36 here that the cleaner has just gone to to go and clean and it

1:04:40 is covered in blood and semen. A porno magazine which has been

1:04:46 shredded with a razor like weird shit.

1:04:50 Who was renting that caravan? Oh, you tell me, Was it?

1:04:53 Was it Bill? Bill Mitchell.

1:04:55 No shit. Now the cops decide to just keep

1:04:59 this little nugget of information to themselves at

1:05:01 this point, because obviously this is an investigation.

1:05:03 They need to be a little bit cagey on some bits.

1:05:05 But also, yeah, it's I sort of know what.

1:05:08 What does this even relate? What does is.

1:05:10 There a relation and to be fair, they're good police officers, so

1:05:14 they're not assuming anything, not assume nothing, but check

1:05:17 everything, right? So, yeah, so they've got this

1:05:23 bit of information as well now about this caravan park, which

1:05:26 they like. I don't know what connection

1:05:27 that he has, but So what? I think they're sort of, the

1:05:30 cops have sort of put together that, yeah, he's gone to this

1:05:32 caravan park for whatever reason, he's chopped his Dick

1:05:35 off there. Ah, that's where that sort of

1:05:36 started. And then he's made his way

1:05:38 somehow 15 minutes down the road to Granuff, to this guy's house,

1:05:43 which I think, oh, maybe he was living in Geraldton, was the

1:05:45 party host in Geraldton? Yeah, maybe it was.

1:05:46 OK, so he wasn't that far the actual.

1:05:48 I don't think it was. Far well, he finally kept

1:05:49 travelling. OK.

1:05:50 Oh, in fact, in fact, it was only a couple of 100 metres.

1:05:53 It wasn't. It literally was not far.

1:05:56 So with his Dick tough chopped off, he's made his way from the

1:05:59 caravan park to his the party host's house.

1:06:02 And that's where this is all taking place.

1:06:04 So what a weird fucking day. Anyway, that's gone on.

1:06:08 No worries. We get a bit further on.

1:06:10 No worries. The cops are just kind of

1:06:12 hanging on to that information that, yeah, keeping him very

1:06:14 much on their radar, but not but not ruling out other things

1:06:19 could be at play here. So the next bit that happens is

1:06:24 more of the forensic stuff starts coming through.

1:06:28 I think first it's the there's a bit of stuff with, that's right,

1:06:30 the fingerprinting. Yeah, they needed to get people

1:06:35 re fingerprinted because this is when they discover that it's

1:06:37 only fingertips, it's not fingerprints and a full print.

1:06:41 Yeah, they need to reprint everyone by this.

1:06:45 Stage, I think they'd fingerprinted something like 68,

1:06:47 yeah, something like that. They were up to big numbers, but

1:06:49 they needed to fingerprint everyone again to get tips of

1:06:53 the fingertips. So in there's that routine

1:06:56 happens, they go around to Bill Mitchell's house to go, it's

1:07:00 your turn today. Sorry, mate, but we need to re

1:07:02 fingerprint you, which he was like, yeah, sure, no, no problem

1:07:06 with the world. So they're re fingerprinting

1:07:07 him. And as they're doing this, he

1:07:10 says we I just don't even understand why he even says

1:07:13 this. He goes, I'm really surprised

1:07:16 that you're actually still investigating this.

1:07:19 So I thought this was all wrapped up and the police, like,

1:07:22 were like, oh mate, like, oh, what made you think that?

1:07:24 Like, Oh well, I heard, I've read in the newspaper that

1:07:28 there'd been an incident at a caravan park and you'd got your

1:07:31 guy. And they're like.

1:07:34 What now? The cops knew that that that was

1:07:39 not public knowledge. That that's exactly right.

1:07:41 No one knew. About that, other than the

1:07:42 caravan park owner, you. Know who hadn't?

1:07:45 Who hadn't disclosed it? Hadn't who knew not to disclose

1:07:47 it. The cops had shut that down.

1:07:49 That was that was not information out in the public.

1:07:53 They're like and this was like a day after that had been

1:07:55 discovered. Too.

1:07:55 Yeah. So they're like, you're like

1:07:58 naming yourself, Yeah. Because you can putting yourself

1:08:01 in it, you fucking idiot. I mean, he was.

1:08:03 Just so following that, two major things happen.

1:08:08 One, his fingerprints match fingertips.

1:08:13 Fingertips. Yeah.

1:08:14 Fingertips, they match, which they're like bingo.

1:08:17 OK, But still we know Bill Mitchell has been in that house

1:08:21 multiple times not you know he was in that he was definitely

1:08:24 there the night prior. That's right, sort of things

1:08:27 that doesn't allow him as. Being allowed to be there.

1:08:29 Allowed to be there, so his. Fingerprints in the house?

1:08:32 Not necessarily a smoking gun, no.

1:08:35 But what they next find is that the greasy stuff that was on

1:08:41 that made those fingerprints matches the stuff found on the

1:08:46 swabs from Karen and her daughter, which then puts him

1:08:52 there for the scene of the murders.

1:08:53 That's right. So we've got his fingerprints in

1:08:56 the greasy sorbolene that was used to penetrate Karen and

1:09:02 potentially Amara. Yeah.

1:09:05 So they've got their guy. Yeah, It's pretty wrapped up.

1:09:09 Yeah, they eventually they actually trail him for a bit

1:09:12 longer still just to see if they can get more, more on him

1:09:15 because. Obviously you don't want that

1:09:17 long though. You know.

1:09:18 Day or two, a couple. Of days, I think it was.

1:09:20 Yeah. At this point we're like 5 weeks

1:09:22 from the murders. It took about 5 weeks before

1:09:24 they arrested. If you think about the amount of

1:09:26 work that went into those five weeks, like it's not like they

1:09:29 were resting on their laurels. They were investigating this so

1:09:32 thoroughly. Oh, this is it.

1:09:33 And that's what they didn't just sort of just go, oh, we've got

1:09:35 him Bang, we're going to go arrest him.

1:09:37 Yeah. Because I mean, at the end of

1:09:38 the day, you do want to have all your TS crossed and I's dotted.

1:09:41 Like, I mean, they don't want to fuck up here and and they know

1:09:44 that it's him. But now to have something fling

1:09:47 back at them, that then is going to make him be able to get out

1:09:49 of this. That's right.

1:09:50 And this is the thing in Australia that they need to be

1:09:52 100% sure because double jeopardy laws apply.

1:09:55 So they need to make sure they've got a water tight case,

1:09:58 absolutely. And so they needed to

1:09:59 investigate this all the way through.

1:10:01 Yeah, yeah. I mean after the fact.

1:10:04 I mean, there was people said that they were in conversations

1:10:07 with him about these murders and how terrible they were.

1:10:10 And, you know, there was a a colleague of his from work that

1:10:13 him they were shearing sheep and, you know, they were just

1:10:15 chatting casually about the murders, you know, so there were

1:10:18 things that they were able to get on record of him saying I.

1:10:22 Didn't see that. What kind of things was he?

1:10:24 Not Nothing. Incriminating really, but just

1:10:25 conversations in general that he was having.

1:10:28 OK. There was another guy who came

1:10:29 forward who said it was maybe about five days after the

1:10:32 murders, another bit of a gathering of, you know, maybe

1:10:35 about 6 men. I think they're all sitting

1:10:36 around having a beer kind of situation.

1:10:39 Not so much of A, you know, party going sort of thing.

1:10:41 It was just like sitting around having a few beers sort of

1:10:43 stuff. And Bill Mitchell was there and

1:10:47 there was talk of the murder and how terrible it was, you know,

1:10:50 and hit things like that. And they all said how he he just

1:10:52 participated in conversation like everyone else, like, but to

1:10:55 the point of like, Oh yeah, I'd freaking murder that person if I

1:10:57 found them, you know, and that sort of stuff, which we now he

1:11:00 was tremendous himself, you know, so very odd that he would

1:11:05 put himself into those conversations, I guess distance

1:11:08 himself maybe, I don't know. Yeah.

1:11:11 Yeah. So anyway, they finally arrest

1:11:14 him. I think for everyone's benefit,

1:11:19 the best thing could have happened in this area.

1:11:20 I agree. He immediately confessed.

1:11:23 Yeah. Which thank God, because to put

1:11:26 the family then through trials and stuff would have been

1:11:29 horrific. I really am glad that he

1:11:32 confessed. It was horrific enough what they

1:11:35 had to go through the sentencing of this.

1:11:37 Absolutely. So they're.

1:11:40 Yeah. So they arrest him and they

1:11:42 charge him. Now.

1:11:43 Have you got what they exactly charged him with there?

1:11:45 But. Basically, I know.

1:11:48 Oh, here you go. 4 counts of wilful murder, sexual

1:11:51 penetration of a child under 13, and indecent interference with

1:11:56 dead bodies. Gross.

1:12:00 So they charge him with that. Now, he in the process of this,

1:12:03 he does a walkthrough and took and confesses to every part of

1:12:07 what happened on that night, on that morning, whatever you're

1:12:11 going to call it. Yeah.

1:12:13 And he discusses the fact of how he arrived and Daniel had met

1:12:18 him out the front and and that he had just attacked him with

1:12:21 this axe and gone at him. He walked.

1:12:26 Apparently the way he described every killing was so detailed.

1:12:33 And graphic. But and very graphic but as if

1:12:38 he was like just explaining any other thing like.

1:12:41 Definitely this is this gets me though.

1:12:43 Yeah, Because I'm like, I wonder whether he's recounting of this

1:12:51 and the way he recounted it has a bearing on then what came of

1:12:56 his sentence. Oh, I don't know.

1:13:00 I don't think it did. I don't know because I think

1:13:04 it's unfortunately what which we can get to the sentence stuff.

1:13:08 I think that was just basically WA law that put that into place.

1:13:13 I. Just think anyway, sorry.

1:13:15 Yeah, keep going with where you're at.

1:13:17 So yeah, in this process he talks about what he did with

1:13:20 each of them, the murders. He explains how the fact was

1:13:23 that he left with the cream. So then that solves that issue

1:13:28 that they weren't able to find it in the house because he left

1:13:30 with it, but also the axe that he took.

1:13:32 And he said that he, he threw the cream in a dumpster and the,

1:13:38 the tomahawk axe that he used, he threw that in the Grenfee

1:13:43 River at a place called Devlin's Pools, I think it's called.

1:13:48 So he was able to direct them to exactly where he threw that in

1:13:50 the river and they were able to find it, refined it, and they

1:13:54 retrieved it and they had this is five weeks later when they

1:13:58 retrieved and. It's been in water.

1:13:59 Been in water all that time and they found his sludgy water

1:14:02 still on. Yeah.

1:14:03 The axe. Yeah.

1:14:04 So again, that was just more evidence that linked him to the

1:14:07 murders. I mean, the fact that he could

1:14:08 even point out where it was and it was found.

1:14:10 But then it also was very evident that it was the axe used

1:14:13 in the the murders. Carries murder, especially.

1:14:16 Yeah, so that's just awful. Just absolutely awful that that

1:14:21 was like that when they found it.

1:14:25 So he really just the, he had no emotion around what he had done.

1:14:31 And the other thing that he told police was that he didn't know

1:14:35 why he'd done it. He knew he'd done.

1:14:37 It all, he and that, but he had taken a shit ton of drugs.

1:14:41 So for like 48 hour period we're talking like so the gathering

1:14:44 he'd been at with with Karen, yeah, it left her place at 11

1:14:50 that morning of the Saturday. Yeah, he had continued still

1:14:54 taking more drugs to when he like, so when he arrived at

1:14:58 their place at 3:00 AM, he'd basically been taking drugs

1:15:01 straight for 48 hours. Cannabis, alcohol and

1:15:03 amphetamines. Yeah, so he was on like an

1:15:06 amphetamine fueled. Rage.

1:15:09 Rage. But having said that, he

1:15:13 remembered meticulously what he had done.

1:15:15 This is. This is the.

1:15:16 Thing that gets me like. Yeah, he had the the forethought

1:15:20 to say to think to himself. I'm going to take.

1:15:22 The Sorbolene with me, yeah. And the axe.

1:15:25 Yeah, I mean the rid of the K Yep.

1:15:28 But the Sorbolene like that's that is to me, that's so

1:15:31 calculated. Yes, you and you can't tell me

1:15:35 that you didn't know what you were doing.

1:15:37 If you're able to actually have the conscience of mind to do

1:15:43 that. And it fuck it, it's it's just

1:15:47 bloody horrific. It's bloody horrific.

1:15:50 And this, this is what I was sort of alluding to before, is

1:15:54 the fact that he says that because he was in this drug

1:15:56 fuelled stupor that that's why he did what he did.

1:16:00 Like, you know, did Karen reject his sexual advances the night

1:16:05 before? Well, there's that.

1:16:06 He did say that that that's the the morning, the 5:00 AM when he

1:16:10 dropped her home that morning, he had made a pass at her.

1:16:15 And. That she rejected him so that's

1:16:19 the only thing that police he never then said oh that's why I

1:16:22 murdered her. He actually said that his actual

1:16:24 words were that he decided all of a sudden just decided he

1:16:27 wanted to kill her whole family. Yep.

1:16:28 Not even just go and kill Karen. No, he intended.

1:16:31 He had intention to go there and kill all.

1:16:34 Four of them. Again, we're looking at like a

1:16:36 premeditation type of thing here.

1:16:38 Absolutely. This wasn't a crime of it's an

1:16:43 argument that to perpetrate something on Karen and the kids

1:16:46 just happened to get in the way. He could have walked away after

1:16:48 killing absolutely Danny and Karen and left those 2 girls.

1:16:52 Alone I mean. I mean, what would their lives

1:16:55 have been? Well, I'm sure that you know,

1:16:57 their auntie and grandma would have of course taken them in and

1:16:59 sort. Of that, of course they would

1:17:01 have. But that's I mean to think that

1:17:03 he his intention entirely the entire time was to go there and

1:17:07 kill all of them. But don't know why I think.

1:17:11 I honestly think he's just a fragile fucking piece of shit.

1:17:15 And he was. His ego was.

1:17:17 Rejected. Rejected.

1:17:18 And he fucking fucking kill them all.

1:17:20 I'll. Show her what?

1:17:23 Disgusting. Depraved.

1:17:24 Oh, he is wanker. He is the fucking lowest of the

1:17:27 low. He's the biggest fucking piece

1:17:30 of shit. Oh God, I can't even.

1:17:33 Now it's, I mean, we're at this point of like the family have

1:17:36 been through hell. I mean, I'm talking so we're

1:17:38 talking Barbara Karen's mom, her sister, her brothers as well,

1:17:43 but her sister in particular has been very vocal around all of

1:17:45 this. The hell that they were put

1:17:47 through in losing the four of them all at once in this was

1:17:53 just horrific. Not to mention then what

1:17:55 happened to their poor bodies after they were killed.

1:17:58 It's just disgusting. But then that's.

1:18:01 My heart that Evelyn has said that she was, she actually sold

1:18:06 some horses that she owned and she was going to use the money

1:18:10 to go and visit them, to visit her family, but she ended up

1:18:16 needing to use that money to go to their funerals.

1:18:19 That's awful you. Know that that's it actually.

1:18:23 It actually makes me feel physically I'll like you put

1:18:28 yourself in her shoes and you think Oh my God.

1:18:30 Like she was actually wanting to go to there to have a great time

1:18:34 with her sister and her nephew. Yeah.

1:18:36 Who was. She was like a mum, A second mum

1:18:38 to her nephew. Yeah.

1:18:40 And her 2 little nieces who were around the same age as her two

1:18:44 daughters, as Evelyn's two daughters at the time.

1:18:46 Yeah, I, I just. I actually just can't even.

1:18:50 No, just awful. Awful.

1:18:52 But then they get to. Sorry, just really quickly on

1:18:55 Evelyn's story as well, the way she found out about their death

1:19:00 really gets. Me.

1:19:02 That's hard. Yeah, I.

1:19:03 Think this is probably one thing that we might be able to

1:19:06 potentially criticize police on is the way that this came about.

1:19:10 So Evelyn lived in Queens? Oh, no, sorry, she lived in

1:19:13 Melbourne at the time. She just really moved to

1:19:15 Melbourne and I think they moved for his work.

1:19:19 That's right. Now I remember something about

1:19:20 that, yeah. And what happened was she'd been

1:19:24 trying to call Karen for days and days and days, no answer,

1:19:27 nothing. Her brother, who I believe one

1:19:31 of the brothers, lived in Perth and he'd seen on the local Perth

1:19:35 news that a family in Greniff, a mum, three children, the ages

1:19:41 hit the same ages as Karen and the kids had been murdered.

1:19:45 Now he then contacted Evelyn and said this has just been on the

1:19:51 news but don't know what's going on.

1:19:53 But I've tried calling and I can't get in contact with them.

1:19:56 Evelyn and her husband were actually going out that night

1:19:59 and what she decided to do was tape the nightly news and they

1:20:03 went out, did whatever they were doing, came home and Evelyn

1:20:07 couldn't shake it. And so she and her husband

1:20:11 decided to call the Geraldton police and find out what was

1:20:15 going on. But they couldn't tell them.

1:20:16 They didn't tell them anything that meant anything.

1:20:19 No, I. Thought, they told.

1:20:20 Her it wasn't until later on like they, they were persistent,

1:20:25 I think. I think it was actually Evelyn's

1:20:27 husband who just was not taking no for an answer or at her

1:20:31 direction. Yeah, she's like, I can't do

1:20:32 this. Yeah, the next day, so I'm

1:20:36 talking now like over 48 hours, over 48 hours later Tuesday,

1:20:40 God, a police officer knocked at her door and she was like, well,

1:20:44 I actually know what you're here for.

1:20:46 I've been trying to get, I've been trying to get confrontation

1:20:48 officially, but I know why you're here.

1:20:51 So imagine that even like that to.

1:20:53 Me, that's something like I'm I'm certain then because she was

1:20:56 trying to ring her sister and like home phone situation.

1:20:59 Yeah, I'm sure that the phone's ringing constantly.

1:21:02 Or not constantly, but every hour and then every couple

1:21:05 hours. You know, kind of stuff.

1:21:06 Well, there's police potentially in that house doing their

1:21:09 search. Didn't they think to themselves

1:21:11 like there's someone's trying to contact her, Maybe one of them

1:21:15 could have picked up that phone. I don't know.

1:21:17 I don't. Know, I don't know what the

1:21:18 protocol would be in that situation.

1:21:20 That's awful. Yeah.

1:21:22 I just, I feel, I feel so deeply for Evelyn.

1:21:26 Oh yeah, really do. Oh God, yeah.

1:21:27 Because she's taken this on, she's taken the brunt of this

1:21:30 on. Well, because then no, because

1:21:33 then we hit like the sentencing with this, which so obviously

1:21:35 because he's pleaded guilty. Yeah.

1:21:37 The judge, look, he, he took it all into account of what had

1:21:42 happened, which was horrific. And what he did was he sentenced

1:21:46 him to life imprisonment. However, there are some laws in

1:21:50 what WA were a bit weird that basically he and he stated it,

1:21:55 he was this was the hardest decision he's ever had to make

1:21:58 in a judgement. And for whatever reason, he made

1:22:02 him eligible for parole after 20 years.

1:22:05 There is there was some sort of rule in WA where 20 years was

1:22:08 equivalent to life. Not so there's life, natural

1:22:12 life, which is his natural life, the the perpetrator.

1:22:17 But then there's life as in sentencing.

1:22:19 And technically in WA that was 20 years, which 20 years isn't

1:22:24 life like it's not anyway. Anyway, that's what he was

1:22:27 sentenced. The Crown then appealed that,

1:22:30 rightly so. They were like, that's not

1:22:31 right. It's five years per person that

1:22:33 is not. Absolutely, and let alone the

1:22:35 rest of what he did. That that's for the murders

1:22:38 like, let alone I mean. Surely then you can at least.

1:22:40 And he should have. He should have been sentenced 20

1:22:42 years per like life sentence per person that was murdered.

1:22:46 He was, but it was kids to serve concurrent.

1:22:48 Currently then I got to be I hate that shit.

1:22:51 It needs to be concurrently. Why?

1:22:53 How can you serve someone to do that at the same time?

1:22:56 No, no, executive only got to be an executive wasn't.

1:22:58 Yeah, Anyway, yeah. So it's appealed and the appeal

1:23:02 was 1. So basically it was then changed

1:23:05 to the natural life of of Bill Mitchell.

1:23:08 So he was then and well, there was in amongst all that people

1:23:11 were calling for the death penalty, you know, and all these

1:23:13 sorts of things because of the heinous crime that he'd

1:23:15 committed. But so, but this shits me that

1:23:20 then he gets then last say and the final appeal that can be

1:23:25 made. Like you can't make that many

1:23:27 appeals that on a, on a case. No.

1:23:29 So once we hit this next appeal, that's this is the last run he

1:23:32 makes. Mitchell makes another appeal to

1:23:35 the sentencing and he wins it and it goes back to being

1:23:40 eligible for parole after 20 years.

1:23:42 So so. That was 2013.

1:23:46 He was originally meant to be eligible.

1:23:48 He was meant to be eligible for parole, so he goes up for

1:23:50 parole, which I mean that family of just being tortured again.

1:23:54 Oh, it's, it's re traumatizing. It's it's absolutely re

1:23:58 traumatizing. And at the time at in 2013, he

1:24:01 was actually moved from one prison.

1:24:04 He was at Cass Arena Prison, which is a maximum security

1:24:09 prison in WA. He was there but just coming up

1:24:13 to that 2013, he was moved to Bunbury Regional Prison.

1:24:16 Like Prison Farm. Is a lower security level, so

1:24:19 people started being like fuck, they're like getting him ready.

1:24:22 That's why they moved in there. Yeah, that's why they moved in

1:24:24 there, because that's the next step before getting.

1:24:26 Before getting parole so everyone was like shit like he's

1:24:28 gonna get out like this is which is just can't even think that

1:24:32 that's even possible, can you? No, no.

1:24:34 And so anyway, he was declined at parole, thank God.

1:24:39 But then three years later, because this is what the rule is

1:24:41 in WA at the time, that after three years you can another go

1:24:45 at it, you can you can try again.

1:24:46 You might have been rehabilitated in three years and

1:24:49 so you get to try again. So 2016 rolls around and this

1:24:52 fucker gets to go again for his parole.

1:24:54 Fortunately, it was denied in 2016.

1:24:58 Now at this point there are there's uproar like this poor

1:25:02 family. And now every three years like

1:25:04 so then he's eligible again in 2019.

1:25:07 So this could go on forever that he, they, they could, he could

1:25:11 recall this and recall this every three years.

1:25:13 This poor family are going through these parole processes.

1:25:17 So Evelyn, she wrote this amazing letter.

1:25:20 Can I read it, please? Just got I have I'm not going to

1:25:22 read the entire thing, but I'm just going to read a little

1:25:25 expert of it because I think it's I think it's worth it's.

1:25:29 Really. She's yeah, really well, well

1:25:31 done. So Evelyn says my 2 youngest

1:25:34 daughters were very similar ages to Amara and Katrina and as I

1:25:38 have watched them grow over the years, I continually think of

1:25:41 what sort of life my nieces would have had.

1:25:43 They were very happy little girls who who adored their mom

1:25:46 and brother. They had beautiful smiles and

1:25:49 had the innocence of life stolen from them in the most barbaric

1:25:53 way. I cannot ever forgive the way in

1:25:56 which they died. Children are so defenseless and

1:25:59 pure of heart. I do not understand how anyone

1:26:03 with any sense of right or wrong could do what was done to them.

1:26:07 My nephew Danny was a real Rascal, but he had a heart of

1:26:10 gold. He would never have let his mom

1:26:12 or sisters get hurt if he could help it.

1:26:15 He was a strong young man and was over 6 foot tall.

1:26:18 If he had known what was going to happen to him when he went

1:26:21 outside that night to see who had driven up the driveway, he

1:26:24 would have fought with all his might to protect his family.

1:26:28 My sister had him when she was very young and when Danny was 2

1:26:31 years old she left him with my mother, my two brothers and I

1:26:34 had to take care of. Just before Danny turned 16, he

1:26:38 said he wanted to go and live with his mom and sisters in WA.

1:26:41 He had decided he wanted to make his mom proud and he was

1:26:45 enjoying his new life with them. Karen went through many

1:26:49 difficult times and had to fight hard to achieve what she had in

1:26:52 life until Mitchell cut her life short.

1:26:55 She wasn't perfect, but she overcame obstacles to get her to

1:26:59 the point where she was buying a house to make a home for herself

1:27:03 and her children. I was very proud of what she

1:27:06 achieved. It was always Karen and I

1:27:09 against the world when we were children.

1:27:12 She was the best sister, always looking out for me and keeping

1:27:15 me safe when we were young. When we were older I got to

1:27:18 return the favour over the years, but it kills me to know

1:27:22 that I wasn't there to help protect her and her family when

1:27:25 she needed me most. This is it.

1:27:28 The trauma of her family is just horrendous.

1:27:31 There's another quote from from Evelyn Summer if it was in that

1:27:34 or not that she said. We've all got a life sentence

1:27:38 for this. That was in this letter.

1:27:40 He should have a life sentence as well, which is just so true.

1:27:45 The, the, as we talk about the untold, you know, toll of these

1:27:50 incidents. Now, Evelyn's daughter, when

1:27:53 this all happened, Karen wrote journals and her daughter found,

1:27:59 well, they, you know, had these journals and her daughter read

1:28:01 them and really connected with her auntie.

1:28:03 She didn't know her that well because they'd obviously lived

1:28:05 on opposite sides of the country, but she just connected

1:28:08 with these journals. Now, Karen had gone through a

1:28:11 lot of depression in her life for a number of reasons, like in

1:28:15 terms of relationships she'd had and things that were going on

1:28:17 with her for her life. But obviously she was finding a

1:28:19 way through that and working out, which was amazing for her.

1:28:22 But Evelyn's daughter really some, for some whatever reason,

1:28:26 connected with a lot of this depression and things that was

1:28:28 in these journals and she ended up committing suicide, which is

1:28:32 Evelyn now feels like, you know, that that's just another toll of

1:28:38 this. Oh, I couldn't agree with him

1:28:41 more. Absolutely.

1:28:42 I mean, it's just so tragic than then, as you say, she would have

1:28:45 been a similar age to either Amara or Katrina at the time.

1:28:48 I mean, such a young girl at the time, she wouldn't have known

1:28:50 about too much of what was going on.

1:28:53 She wouldn't know enough, that's for damn sure, you know?

1:28:55 And then as she's got older, she's read these journals and

1:28:58 things and knows more. About it I believe she took her

1:29:01 own life three weeks or so after she turned 18.

1:29:05 Yeah, yeah. It was just too much.

1:29:07 It's. Just awful.

1:29:09 And so it's impacted, you know, so many people.

1:29:12 Yeah. And Evelyn, like the, the trauma

1:29:15 for Evelyn, I just think she's been through so much and the

1:29:19 ripple effect that you were talking about before.

1:29:23 I I think it's directly attributed attributed to the

1:29:26 fact that her family suffered the fate they suffered.

1:29:31 Yeah, yeah, at the. Hands of this psycho drug fueled

1:29:37 fuckwit. Yeah, yeah.

1:29:39 And this is the thing that I find really offensive about the

1:29:45 judge's remarks in sentencing. He says that he, I'm

1:29:52 paraphrasing, this isn't a direct quote at all, but

1:29:55 basically he said that he feels like it was a drug fueled rage

1:30:02 and therefore rehabilitation is possible.

1:30:05 How can you annihilate an entire fucking family with such extreme

1:30:12 like I, we have been doing this. What is this our 74th, 75th

1:30:15 episode? Something like that.

1:30:17 We have not come across something this brutal yet.

1:30:21 No, this is what this has got to be up there.

1:30:23 This has got to be one of the biggest ones.

1:30:25 Well, 'cause the other thing is that that was stated in the, the

1:30:28 appeal, the final appeal, the the defence lawyers, what they

1:30:33 appealed on was the fact that again reiterating that he, they

1:30:36 thought that he was rehabilitatable, saying that

1:30:40 that that being put in prison for than his natural life would

1:30:44 be, that would be something you would keep aside for something

1:30:47 like a serial killer. Oh fuck off.

1:30:49 And he's not fucking. Serial killer and.

1:30:50 Now he no, he doesn't meet the criteria.

1:30:52 But instead of meeting the criteria for a serial killer, he

1:30:55 meets the criteria of a masochist.

1:30:57 Yeah. Now, I'm sorry, what point do we

1:31:00 kind of go that a serial killer is worse than a masochist?

1:31:03 I don't know. Especially surely to count the

1:31:06 sexual assaults as well. This.

1:31:08 Is the thing that I feel like got lost in all.

1:31:09 Of it, it fucking infuriates me. Yeah, he decided to take those

1:31:12 drugs. This is it.

1:31:13 He decided to be. Well, yeah, this is what?

1:31:16 Drinking and shooting up the defensively a smoking dope.

1:31:20 You know, with him being in prison and being, you know, off

1:31:23 drugs and things, he then isn't, you know?

1:31:25 A risk 21 in the community? No, no.

1:31:27 Like, so let's put him back out in the community where he can

1:31:29 get back on those drugs and again, 'cause another massacre,

1:31:32 which then puts him in the category of a serial killer.

1:31:34 I'm. Actually just not interested in

1:31:36 even thinking no. Because the fact the simple

1:31:37 faction there is, I honestly, truly, honestly believe this,

1:31:40 Right, right. That he committed this murder,

1:31:43 which, yes, doesn't meet the criteria for serial killer,

1:31:45 right. But a masochist.

1:31:46 However, if the cops weren't as good as they were at their job,

1:31:50 I can guarantee you he would have done it again.

1:31:52 Yeah, agreed. So no, he's not a serial killer

1:31:54 now. But if he had been left to do it

1:31:56 again and they hadn't done their job, yes, he would be.

1:31:59 And we want to stop. That can I just say as well, OK,

1:32:03 I get that our prison system is intended for rehabilitation.

1:32:09 Yes, for most. For most.

1:32:11 And this is what he was sort of saying was that you that can't

1:32:13 come. Back.

1:32:14 That serial killers can't be rehabilitated.

1:32:15 So that's when you don't give them, you know, any parole.

1:32:18 Well, I don't give. Sorry.

1:32:20 Stop. What measure, what measure are

1:32:23 we taking to ensure that when we're releasing somebody who's

1:32:27 perpetrated such untold? That which he can't remember why

1:32:35 he decided to do it. Of course he fucking can.

1:32:37 It's because he got rejected and his masculinity was bruised so.

1:32:42 You don't tell me you won't do that again.

1:32:43 Yeah, exactly. Because he's gonna get rejected

1:32:44 again in life, because that's. He's gonna.

1:32:46 Go just I don't, I can't. Yep.

1:32:50 So he was eligible to go for parole again in 2025.

1:32:54 Well, so, yeah, but the reason for that is because what

1:32:57 happened in the meantime is like because of Evelyn's she did.

1:33:03 Yep. And and also a particular person

1:33:06 getting into governor, all these sorts of things, certain levels

1:33:09 of government that would came into play and those people that

1:33:12 were individuals. By like 18,000 no. 45 it was, it

1:33:16 was massive. It was huge.

1:33:17 So yeah, this petition was done and it was really well done.

1:33:21 Anyway, they then changed the laws.

1:33:23 So what unfortunately it is now is that instead of three years,

1:33:27 it's six years. So he is.

1:33:28 He was eligible again for parole in 2025.

1:33:31 Yeah, but that hasn't happened yet.

1:33:32 So it's gonna be up. So it will come up soonish that

1:33:36 he will be. Up for that again, he chooses to

1:33:40 apply for Parle thing. He's got, he's got, he's now

1:33:42 eligible to. Apply to apply.

1:33:45 Whether he gets it or not, we don't know.

1:33:46 Yeah, yeah. So in the meantime, though also

1:33:50 Evelyn, to her credit, amazing woman she took at a point she

1:33:55 chose to go in and. Meet with him.

1:33:57 My God, this in. Prison.

1:33:59 Yep. She is amazing.

1:34:01 She's so strong. She went in there with an

1:34:03 intention. She didn't really want to know

1:34:05 why he did it, because to be honest, there's no.

1:34:08 Matter use. For this, there's no reason, no.

1:34:10 So she went in there really just about to look him in the eyes

1:34:14 and tell him what he has done and taken away from him that he

1:34:18 has created. And so I just.

1:34:21 And she also says that she wanted him to know who Karen

1:34:24 really was. Yeah, that's right.

1:34:26 You know, I guess, I guess Evelyn assumed that she, he knew

1:34:32 the partying side of Karen. He didn't know all the shit that

1:34:35 she'd been through in her life, not how hard she'd fought to be

1:34:39 where she was, the things that she'd overcome in her life, how

1:34:43 much she loved her children, how much she loved her sister, and

1:34:48 how important she was to so many people.

1:34:51 Yeah, and all of the kids as well, I think.

1:34:55 How brave. How brave is Evelyn?

1:34:57 I, that piece of shit sat there and said to her that he has an

1:35:02 intention of getting out and that he he wants, he's got the

1:35:05 idea of that. That he has eligibility for

1:35:07 parole is what keeps him going every day.

1:35:11 What a cock, he she said to him at the time.

1:35:17 She said, I told him as long as I've got breath in my body, I'm

1:35:19 going to do everything I can to keep him inside.

1:35:21 And she said, she said this, she's like, until either I die

1:35:25 or he dies, I will fight to the ends of the earth to make sure

1:35:32 he doesn't get out. I I hope that he's he hears that

1:35:37 and then doesn't bother for parole.

1:35:38 I think he will. I know.

1:35:40 I honestly think he will. When I was looking up, when I

1:35:43 saw that he was eligible to apply again in 2025, I was like,

1:35:46 fuck yeah, looked it up, Obviously there's nothing to

1:35:48 find. Yeah, there's nothing there yet.

1:35:50 But I mean, we'll keep you guys updated if we do find anything.

1:35:54 But yeah, he deserves to die on in prison.

1:35:58 I wish. Maybe some other prisoners could

1:36:00 find him, I don't know. Well, this is the thing.

1:36:02 He's also a protected prisoner. Yes, you know how fucking

1:36:06 bullshit is that? Somebody needs to finish the job

1:36:08 and cut his Dick off. Wouldn't take much, it's surely

1:36:11 just hanging on by a thread disbursting.

1:36:14 Gap Dick. That's a Real Housewives

1:36:17 reference for anyone, For anyone Playing home, at home, playing a

1:36:24 home. Card for this year though.

1:36:26 OK, where'd that come from? You know what I'm talking about,

1:36:29 right? I just was like a reference I

1:36:34 haven't heard in so long. Oh God.

1:36:39 Oh, God. I mean, the other thing I just

1:36:41 wanted to touch on a little bit of like, William, wait, his full

1:36:44 name is William William Patrick Bill Mitchell Bill.

1:36:49 Now, look, he didn't have the greatest of childhoods.

1:36:52 No. And I don't, I don't want to

1:36:53 dwell too much on that side of things in that, Yeah, he was

1:36:56 raised in a very, very poor family, went to school and was

1:36:59 bullied horrendously. His mum died when he was 11.

1:37:03 Yeah, he had a shit childhood. Yep.

1:37:05 The only reason I'm bringing this up, though, is that this is

1:37:08 where I think we can go back to and tick the boxes on him being

1:37:11 a serial killer. Yeah, this is where I come back

1:37:13 again, where I think more psychological assessments need

1:37:16 to be done. Yeah, where we can assess people

1:37:19 at this point and say, mate, you're not getting risk because

1:37:24 you meet this criteria. Yeah, of you.

1:37:26 You are what makes a serial killer.

1:37:28 Yeah, like I think I we need to also say at this point is not

1:37:31 everyone who has an upbringing like his is gonna end up mass

1:37:34 murdering somebody. But he had Karen.

1:37:37 Karen could make criteria potentially for her trauma that

1:37:40 she had in her childhood for sure.

1:37:42 She didn't go around axe murdering people.

1:37:44 She actually. Was trying to make a life.

1:37:46 Yeah. So I, I literally looked at this

1:37:48 case and went, this is the example of a victim here who has

1:37:54 done everything in her life to try and get away from the trauma

1:37:57 that she has had in her life and build a life, you know, based

1:38:00 off of so much stuff that's gone on for her.

1:38:03 And I have so much respect for her for doing that.

1:38:07 And then this evil piece of shit who has also had trauma in his

1:38:09 life but is instead of trying to make a life for himself and do

1:38:12 better, does what he does and it's just wrong.

1:38:18 It's. And how do we avoid this shit?

1:38:21 Keep him in jail, especially after they've done this.

1:38:23 Stuff, I mean, absolutely. There is no way he should be

1:38:26 getting out like there. That is not even a question in

1:38:29 my mind. No, I hope.

1:38:32 I hope. I don't know what else we can

1:38:34 do, but Nope, he never gets out. I feel for Evelyn because she's

1:38:37 got the burden of this on her shoulders.

1:38:39 Yeah, of fighting this. I mean, at least I guess now

1:38:42 it's every six years instead of every three.

1:38:44 But he can breathe a deal. Between because I feel like 3.

1:38:46 Years would just come around hanging over your like over your

1:38:49 head. I don't think you would ever be

1:38:51 able to let it go. No, no.

1:38:53 You know, even OK, something might happen, you know, this

1:38:56 year. Let's say he doesn't get out.

1:38:59 Well, then she's probably thinking, all right, well, how

1:39:00 am I going to keep this going again for next time?

1:39:03 Yeah. Yeah, Yep.

1:39:04 I mean, we're talking now. I mean, this, this murder

1:39:06 occurred over 30 years ago. Yeah.

1:39:09 I mean, and she's still having to battle this.

1:39:12 Yeah. It's just horrific.

1:39:14 Yeah. Yeah, she's a, she's an

1:39:15 exceptional woman, especially given, you know, she's had so

1:39:19 much trauma in her life, too. I mean, by the sounds of it,

1:39:21 she's got a very, very supportive husband and children.

1:39:24 Yeah, Thank goodness for that. Yeah.

1:39:27 But you know, this is still her burden, you know?

1:39:30 Yeah. And she, I know she doesn't see

1:39:32 it as a burden as in, you know, she would do anything for her

1:39:35 sister and her children and, you know, her nieces and nephew.

1:39:39 Yeah. But seriously.

1:39:44 Absolutely, yeah. Oh that was a heavy one.

1:39:49 Did you struggle researching this?

1:39:51 One this week I had to take break.

1:39:52 Same. Yeah, me too.

1:39:53 I actually, I found myself, I was actually listening to that

1:39:58 Crime invest in Crime Investigation Australia.

1:40:02 I was just listening to it as opposed to watching.

1:40:04 It the other day. Oh.

1:40:05 Yeah, I watched it. I watched it.

1:40:07 I was watching it again, listening to it, not watching it

1:40:10 today, just to refresh my memory on a few things because as I

1:40:13 said before, I felt so unprepared and I actually had to

1:40:15 turn it off. Yeah, like it actually.

1:40:17 Really. There are a few things that

1:40:20 happened in that and I was like, Oh no, no, I actually can't.

1:40:22 I don't want to hear any more. About it actually with that now

1:40:25 do other things whilst I watched it so I was distracted like it

1:40:28 was like I had to do like 2. Things and it's like, yeah, you

1:40:30 needed your brain to not just be focusing on that.

1:40:32 No, absolutely. Yeah.

1:40:35 But worth a watch though if people do want to.

1:40:37 And the other thing I think it's worth noting is the fact that,

1:40:40 you know, these cases, these things I think are so important

1:40:43 to talk about because, yeah, we're keeping the memory of

1:40:47 these people alive. But we're also, you know, I

1:40:51 think people need to be aware that the justice system is not

1:40:54 felt. It's, it's fallible, it's

1:40:56 flawed. And there are ways that people

1:41:00 who perpetrate fucking events like this, yeah, can potentially

1:41:04 be out amongst the community again.

1:41:05 But also sometimes the cops do damn good work so don't even

1:41:09 bother doing this shit because you'll get caught.

1:41:11 Don't even. But unfortunately then the

1:41:12 justice system in the courts won't do what they need to do

1:41:16 and you'll probably be out after 20 years.

1:41:19 So it's kind of this, it's vicious cycle of sorts, isn't

1:41:23 it? Yeah, all.

1:41:24 Right, next week we're heading to South Australia.

1:41:27 So blade always. Brings it.

1:41:30 Oh, don't they, though? SA has spicy cases and this one

1:41:34 is Angelica Guevara. Is that how you say your

1:41:37 surname? Yeah.

1:41:38 And yeah, this one we just did a quick because we were like both

1:41:42 of us when we were. Looking like hold on, I knew I

1:41:44 wrote it on there but I was like this.

1:41:45 Because I was like, I'm pretty sure I haven't added this one,

1:41:47 this was a Meg one or someone suggested it to you maybe?

1:41:50 Possibly, yeah. And yeah, we just had a quick

1:41:53 look. I'm like oh, looking forward to

1:41:54 researching. This one, Yep, very interesting.

1:41:57 Yep, all good. Adelaide always knows how to

1:41:59 bring it though. Oh, they they should.

1:42:00 Some crazy ones man all. Good.

1:42:04 All right, Well, stay curious. Crime besties.

1:42:06 Bye.