Episode 76 - Angelika Gavare: The Murder of Vonne McGlynn

0:15 Welcome to Crime Besties to another episode.

0:17 Here we are again today. Meg, how are you going?

0:19 I'm all good. We're back in the swing of

0:21 routine and I'm feeling somewhat good with that.

0:24 Yeah, me too. Oh, me too.

0:26 Yeah. It's a hard, a hard reality,

0:28 yeah, to get back into. But my God, it's just absolutely

0:33 needed. They're already myself

0:35 sometimes, you know, is it just that we don't we want, we don't

0:37 have like in the I know that when I'm in this stuck in this

0:40 rut of routine, I get to a point where I'm like, give me holidays

0:43 and then like I'm when I come back to rotate, I'm like, no,

0:46 no, this is my safe zone. I need this.

0:47 Yeah, I think, I think as well after 6 whatever 6 odd weeks

0:52 off, that is more than enough. Like yeah, by the time the two

0:55 week holidays come, the term holidays come, I'm like, yeah,

0:57 I'm ready for a two week break. Yeah, by the end of the two

0:59 weeks, yeah, we're good. Go back.

1:01 I'm ready to start lunch boxes again.

1:03 I'm ready to start the ferrying around.

1:05 Oh, that's. My the one thing and I don't

1:08 know what I was like. I was having an argument with

1:10 myself last night going Is it the packing of the lunch box or

1:13 is it the washing of it's? The washing of it.

1:15 It's the washing. Yeah, for me, it's the washing

1:17 of them. I fucking hate washing a lunch

1:19 box. Oh, the the whole like getting

1:21 home and like boys lunch boxes. Yeah, you know, and then looking

1:25 at them at my on my kitchen bench.

1:27 Oh God. That's what it is for me too.

1:29 I mean packing, whatever, it takes a bit of time, but it is

1:32 what it is. They.

1:32 Have got that free jam pat I think these.

1:34 Days. Yeah, same.

1:35 Well, 'cause you know they don't change.

1:41 Yes, yes, I, I know exactly what you're talking about.

1:45 Yes. So I think for me it's the

1:47 washing. I can't stand the washing and

1:49 the little fiddly things because they've all got these fucking

1:51 bentos and you. Have to a little apart and get

1:54 the bits Oh my. God, annoying, but then you

1:57 know, you gotta do what you gotta do.

2:00 Yeah, you know, then it's the. But I think I think the worst

2:02 bit of it is looking at it going now, I'm gonna open that.

2:04 How much food am I gonna find in there?

2:05 Yeah, what are the kids having for afternoon tea?

2:08 Today. Exactly.

2:09 Yeah, literally. Mine was open.

2:10 Oh, looks like we've found our fruit that we're putting out

2:12 with dinner tonight. Yeah, that's gonna get eaten,

2:15 guys. Yeah.

2:16 Enjoy and it's been like, you know, bashed around in your

2:20 lunch box all day with tough shit.

2:22 Well, if you. Ate it when you.

2:23 Yes, that's right. It would have been fresh and

2:24 nice. It would have been good.

2:26 These are the, this is, you know, really done to yourself,

2:28 you know? Yeah.

2:29 That's it, and as always for start a school in Australia, it

2:33 is hot as balls. How is that 45° daily crazy?

2:38 Jeez. Just mental.

2:40 Yeah. I mean, Peter got for air

2:41 conditioning. I know Peter and Ollie went on

2:43 this drive course last week. I think I might have spoken

2:46 about it in last weeks podcast, but they went away to like

2:49 basically northern Victoria and then over to the border of

2:52 Victoria and SA in the desert. Yeah, to Big Desert, I think it

2:56 was called. And they went up like Mildura

2:58 Way, where they had record temperatures in the very high

3:01 40s, and they were there during some of that and they were

3:04 camping. Recorded it was 49.8 or 9 or

3:07 something like that. But people who live there were

3:09 like my temperature where I specifically was, was, well, it

3:12 was 5152. I've seen people talking about

3:15 so crazy. It's yeah, it was insane hot.

3:18 I have to say, though, I actually don't mind it.

3:22 What? It doesn't bother me that that

3:24 kind of heat, it was dry. If it's dry heat, Yep.

3:27 We've had humidity, humidity week and it's disgusting.

3:29 I can hate humidity too. I will take that 45° day dry

3:33 heat over a 32° muggy day every day of.

3:39 The week. I actually agree with you on

3:40 that. Yeah, I actually didn't mind the

3:42 heat of. Like also because we've got air

3:44 conditioning everywhere. I know, but like, even just

3:46 because I walked, I was walking at one point between like, well,

3:49 like where I work different buildings and stuff, and someone

3:51 coming towards me was like, Oh my God, this is so gross, this

3:54 heat. And I was like, actually,

3:56 actually, yeah. I'm fine.

3:58 You know what my mom said to me? This is like such an old person

4:00 thing to say, But my mom said to me the other day, she's like,

4:03 oh, kids these days, they're so soft.

4:05 When we were at school, we had no air conditioning and we

4:08 didn't even have water bottles, You know, we just didn't have

4:11 water bottles. And I send my kids to school

4:14 with their Yeti water bottles that are insulated with ice.

4:17 You know they're. Freezer pack under their right

4:19 exactly. I'm like, they're not soft.

4:23 They're just like, you know, accustomed to a comfortable,

4:26 more comfortable way of living. Yeah.

4:28 Yeah, I know. I recently caught up with

4:29 friends of mine that we used to lived, live across the road from

4:32 each other and we'd all, you know, go to school, primary

4:34 school and high school and stuff together.

4:35 And we were talking about the fact that, you know, how we used

4:37 to walk to school and some days and we're like, Oh my God, how

4:40 was it? How far we walked?

4:41 Like, you know, kids these days wouldn't walk that far.

4:43 We hurt ourselves and kind of went.

4:45 We're old, you know, we kind of went.

4:46 So yeah, remember that day it. Snowed and I had to walk a mile,

4:50 look a mile of shoes. Oh my God, if we don't joke

4:53 about it, we are the old people. Yeah, look, I think you are the

4:56 old people, I'm sorry to say it, joke or no joke.

5:01 Now a bit of a crimey kind of update as well I've got is the

5:04 Greg Lynn thing. So there was an administrative

5:08 hearing for him this week, I think it was a couple of days

5:11 ago, yes. And what the court actually.

5:14 So a lot of the details of that have actually been suppressed

5:17 from the media. So we don't know exactly what

5:19 was discussed or how it came to this.

5:21 But Greg Lin will actually remain in prison pending his

5:24 trial. So there was a potential for him

5:29 to get out to be like released pending a trial.

5:32 But thank God he's still behind bars until the trial.

5:34 So still no date, I don't believe has has been set.

5:38 Someone of the reports that I saw said that possibly another

5:42 hearing in July, maybe that's to set the date for the trial.

5:45 I'm not really sure, Yeah, but yeah, it'll be interesting to

5:48 see. So we'll be watching this space

5:49 for. Sure buddy, Earth will be

5:50 watching that space. I just, I'm like, he's gotta be

5:53 held accountable for his actions.

5:56 And not only for this. Nope.

5:58 There's many more. Yeah.

5:59 I think there's what we know of. Yeah.

6:02 I think there's three that are fairly clear, to be honest.

6:04 Agreed. And then I think there's might

6:06 be more. Yep.

6:08 Anyway, Allegedly. Space let's just wait and see

6:10 yes allegedly, of course of course we've also had some

6:14 really lovely feedback this week like the socials have been got

6:17 not TikTok, not the socials aside from TikTok have been

6:21 going off so we've had some new patreons we've had Casey

6:25 Harkness Ray Natalia Mccullen and Aisha Hayward Hassan who's

6:32 from the UK. So thank you Aisha for

6:34 persisting and chatting back and forth with Meg and then me not

6:37 knowing you'd been chatting with Meg and then chatting with me.

6:41 Sorry about the if there was any confusion there, but that's all

6:43 all cool. Thank you very much for

6:45 persisting and and joining us. Yeah, that was a bit of a

6:48 challenge. We've had coffees bought for us

6:51 this week by James's, Haley H and someone.

6:55 So we don't know if it's the same someone that bought us

6:57 coffees another time. But thank you very much to

6:59 everyone who's supported us in that way.

7:01 Absolutely. Then we also have had some

7:03 amazing engagement, especially Instagram.

7:06 Yeah, and I just wanted to give a particular shout out to a

7:10 couple of people. So Heidi Stewart, she's from

7:12 Scotland, lived in, I think she said, Man, was it yeah, when she

7:16 was 18 or something? Oh no, she.

7:18 Had her children. Here, oh, she had her children

7:20 here, or maybe she said her. One of her kids is now. 18

7:23 right? And so yes, so thank you very,

7:26 very much, Heidi and Rachel Finch has been liking all of our

7:31 posts, commenting and making some really lovely comments.

7:33 So thank you very, very much for that.

7:35 And just really quickly as well, I'm going to give a shout out to

7:39 the guy who owns my BFT studio, Blake.

7:42 Copy. Questions now.

7:43 Well, I'll tell you why. Because.

7:45 So I was like, you know, slogging it out on the treadmill

7:47 the other day. And one of the trainers, Jess,

7:49 she comes up to me. She's like, I've just moved an

7:52 hour away. I've got an hour commute to get

7:54 here. And I was just saying to be

7:55 like, oh, you know, I'm going to start listening to podcasts.

7:58 And he mentioned yours. So Jess, I hope if you're

8:00 listening, Yeah, I hope you enjoy it.

8:05 Or nerve wracking, I think when someone.

8:07 We know ohh one that's what I say to everyone.

8:08 I'm like I could not care less if people I don't know listen

8:12 and as people I know I'm like ohh, did I say something?

8:15 Ohh, you. Know what if I say something

8:17 weird? Yeah, I mean, I don't know.

8:18 I say weird shit. Yeah.

8:21 It's a. Given it is a given, we're gonna

8:24 preface today's case by saying pronunciations of names we are

8:28 not 100% on. So we're going with what we're

8:31 going with. We're really sorry if we offend

8:34 him, that pronunciation, but it is what it is, yes.

8:38 So today we're discussing the case.

8:40 It is the murder of Vonnie McGlynn.

8:44 Vonnie Isabella McGlynn. And this case happened in SA.

8:48 And as you said, Meg, we have so many cases in SA that we really

8:52 need to get our yeah teeth stuck into.

8:55 I feel like we we're sheltered from a bit here in Melbourne.

8:57 We don't get so that as much and so, but there are some real

9:01 interesting cases. In SA is very interesting.

9:04 I it actually blew my mind. I didn't know anything about

9:08 this before researching this week.

9:11 This was one that was suggested to us by one of our listeners.

9:13 And when I took a quick little look into it to kind of go, oh,

9:16 OK. Like, is this one that we can

9:18 get enough out of to, like, get an episode?

9:19 Because sometimes there's just not enough to really get a whole

9:22 episode out of, which we've talked about maybe even

9:24 combining a few of those to try and still, you know, give them

9:26 some some airtime as well. But yeah, this one, I literally

9:30 was like Googled away a bit and then went, Oh my God, yeah, we

9:33 need to look at this. Yeah.

9:34 I mean, there's not a huge amount out there aren't.

9:37 I found too something very interesting about this, that

9:39 there's a lot of stuff that's been removed from internets and

9:42 things like there's a particular TV show that was made about it.

9:46 Yep, that you cannot access anymore.

9:49 So I'm intrigued as to why that is.

9:51 Because that series still like exists on it doesn't They're

9:54 still not still making. It but you can watch.

9:56 But you can watch other episodes, and I have watched

9:58 other episodes of that same series, but it's literally, it's

10:01 episode 3 of this series and there's literally 1, 2456.

10:06 Yeah. And it's not there.

10:08 Yeah. I just found that very

10:09 intriguing. Yes.

10:10 Why that is? Yeah, I don't know.

10:12 I don't know because I don't see what no like what could be what.

10:16 Would make that. Not able to be.

10:18 Seen, I don't know if there's something in it that they ended

10:20 up going, oh, that's not accurate and we need to remove

10:22 it. Yeah, I don't know.

10:24 Yeah, but Adelaide just brings the interest.

10:28 Up It really does. It really does.

10:30 So I think it's probably worth saying right from the get go,

10:34 because I think this helps to kind of build the case, is that

10:39 Angelica Guevara is the perpetrator of this crime and is

10:43 the person who ended up being convicted.

10:47 So we'll talk through all of this just to give a little bit

10:50 of a background. So Vonnie was a sweet old lady,

10:54 like a very lovely you look at her photo.

10:57 She actually really reminds me of my grandma.

10:59 Like she's. Just she just looks very sweet

11:01 and lovely. Yeah.

11:02 She didn't have any children. She wasn't married and I think

11:06 she had been married. She had been married and he had

11:09 passed away 50 years earlier. Yes.

11:11 So she'd been on her own for quite some time, but obviously

11:13 at the love of her life and had lost him, unfortunately, quite,

11:17 I mean, early issue in their marriage that she decided not to

11:21 meet anybody else. And you know, that that was her.

11:23 Yeah. And she never had, they never

11:24 had children. So yeah, she was on her own.

11:26 And yeah, but no, she's but quite a feisty woman.

11:29 I feel like she she had quite a, quite a personality, which,

11:32 yeah, I love it. Yeah, and I think she was one of

11:35 those people, like she was quite community minded.

11:38 She was like, she was in her 80s at the time of her murder.

11:41 Yes. And like she was still living on

11:45 her own, very independent, very self-sufficient.

11:48 She was still cooking for herself.

11:50 Yeah. And she did have an injury.

11:53 She actually broke her wrist. And, you know, she had community

11:56 around her and support around her.

11:58 Yeah. The only other living family

12:00 that I could find was her brother Donald.

12:03 Yeah. So he lived Interstate and in

12:05 Queensland. Yeah.

12:06 So he couldn't necessarily be there to help her physically,

12:10 but I know they kept in very regular contact.

12:12 They'd call each other well. He was the one who organised for

12:15 her to have this Red Cross. What do they call it?

12:19 Telecross. They called it which, which I

12:20 don't know if it's still exists or not.

12:22 It does. If it does, I'm like, Oh my God,

12:24 that's awesome. I just get onto that for like,

12:25 you know, people in my life that could do with that.

12:27 Yeah. And what it is is that they do a

12:29 regular phone call once a day between sort of the hours of

12:32 like 7:00 and 9:00 AM-ish. They will call these people.

12:35 And you can volunteer to this program to be the person who

12:38 calls and you just make a daily phone call to this person.

12:41 And it's really just a well-being check that this

12:44 person is, you know, they haven't fallen overnight or

12:46 something, or you know, that they don't need support or help.

12:49 And but it's also just an Ave. that this person can reach out

12:52 to when they answer that call to say like, actually, I'm not OK

12:55 or and then help can be achieved for them quickly.

12:59 Yeah, which, you know, within a 24 hour period.

13:01 That's a it's a just a great touch base, I think for families

13:05 to have to know that that's constantly happening for them

13:08 every day that there's someone that will be making that quick

13:10 phone call or on for a chat if they want like, you know, yeah,

13:13 that's exactly that. They've got someone to speak to

13:15 every day. Yeah, Vonnie also had a real

13:18 passion for travel and she was very well travelled.

13:21 I think that that was that was what she spent her life and her

13:24 money and all of that doing. So, you know, it goes to show

13:27 she was a bit of a go getter. You know, she didn't just sort

13:29 of sit at home and you know, was meek and mild.

13:31 She would, she would go out, get out there and that's what she

13:34 spent her, spent her. Life.

13:36 I love that She's also described as being, like, quite frugal

13:38 with her money and that she actually owned a fridge that

13:42 she'd been given as a gift from 1958.

13:44 Yes. And that was her same fridge she

13:46 was using to this day. Like, she was someone who I

13:48 think, yeah, she loved to travel and do those sorts of things and

13:51 was still doing travel up to this point.

13:53 She would go on trips, not necessarily overseas, but she

13:55 would, you know, plan trips for herself.

13:57 And yeah, like, amazing. But she would.

13:59 Yeah. Put her money where she wanted

14:01 to use it in those senses, and she'd be frugal in other ways to

14:04 ensure that she could do nice trips.

14:05 And she wanted. To do good on her.

14:07 Yeah, absolutely. She put her money where she

14:09 wanted to spend it. Yeah, good on her.

14:11 Like absolutely. Yeah.

14:13 And I also feel like that's really reminiscent of that

14:16 generation as well. Like they would, we call it in

14:18 our house, we call them Biffles, buy it for life.

14:20 So where you spend more money on something because, you know,

14:23 it's going to last you maybe not 50 odd years, Yeah.

14:27 But you know, for a for a significant portion of your

14:30 life. And I think if you ask my dad,

14:32 nothing's made as good today as it was made back then.

14:35 So, yeah, she was one of those types of people just really

14:39 invested in the core things that she needed.

14:41 And. Yeah.

14:41 Yeah. So totally.

14:44 Yeah. She was living on her own at the

14:46 time of this, of her murder. Yeah.

14:49 She lived in Salina St. in Raynella in SA and as I said

14:55 before, she had a really strong community around her.

14:58 She had several neighbors who checked in on her, helped her.

15:02 I mentioned that she fractured her wrist and one of her

15:05 neighbors, I think her name was Sharon, would take her to

15:09 doctor's appointments and get groceries for her and just check

15:13 in and make sure she didn't need any help.

15:15 And her husband would do little odd jobs around the house for

15:18 Vonnie and repair things that needed repairing and help her

15:22 out in those ways. She also had another another an

15:27 ex neighbor. Terese who was 1 ended up being

15:31 just one of her really good friends.

15:33 Terese moved away from Reinella but would still check in with

15:37 Vonnie all the time. So she had community around her,

15:40 she had friends, she would take herself to the shops.

15:44 She was. Very routined in what she would

15:45 do, and I love this, that every day she'd go to McDonald's for

15:48 breakfast. What's your what's your

15:49 McDonald's breakfast order? Oh.

15:51 Not a big fan of McDonald's breakfast.

15:52 You. No, but I mean I'd get an egg

15:55 and bacon Mcmuffin. I always go an egg and make a

15:58 Mcmuffin. Extra egg, one extra egg, double

16:02 eggs, double egg Mcmuffin. Yeah, OK.

16:05 I can't. I can't do.

16:06 Two eggs. That's a lot.

16:07 Oh yeah. No, that'd be very filling.

16:09 Oh well, not, not really. I mean, no, not for me.

16:14 No double Egg Mcmuffin that. That'll do.

16:16 Me. OK.

16:16 Yeah. Yeah, right.

16:17 Yeah, yeah. OK.

16:18 That's my go to. Just trying.

16:20 To think how you get your mouth around it, yeah.

16:22 OK, cool. Oh, now it squishes down.

16:24 Look, an egg. Nothing.

16:25 Isn't that thing? I had a little X-ray.

16:27 Oh no, don't worry, I have no trouble.

16:33 So let's have a bit of a chat now about Angelica and her

16:36 background, and then we'll we'll get to the timeline of events.

16:40 So Angelica Guevara was born in 1975.

16:44 Don't have an exact date of birth for her, but she was

16:46 actually born in Latvia and she gave birth to her first daughter

16:52 in Latvia in 1993. I wanna say yeah.

16:55 I think that sounds. Right.

16:56 And then she moved to Australia and she met a man and they had,

17:03 this man's name was Giuseppe. They had another daughter

17:06 together in Australia I think. It was about 2000 and. 6.

17:10 Five I was gonna 5 or. Six.

17:11 Yeah, that sounds about right. Yeah, that sounds about right.

17:14 Yeah. So basically.

17:16 Yeah, she migrated here in 2001. Yep, that's right.

17:19 Oh sorry, her first daughter was born in 1998.

17:21 Anyway, 2005 they had their daughter.

17:23 Yes now that I'm reading my notes that helps.

17:26 So during this time Angelica and the 2 girls at the start, they

17:31 actually lived with Angelica's mom.

17:33 So she and Giuseppe, I think she fell pregnant very, very early

17:36 in their relationship. Yeah.

17:38 And they weren't quite ready to move in together.

17:40 So they were living with Angelica's mum.

17:42 Her name was Anara Dombrovska. They then.

17:46 So after a few months, Giuseppe and Angelica decided to move in

17:51 together. Yeah.

17:52 And they, that only lasted a very short.

17:54 It was a mere month. It was from March to August or

17:57 something like that. Like only a few months.

18:00 Yeah. And then they broke up.

18:01 Giuseppe and Angelica broke up. And Angelica actually purchased

18:06 a home after this and moved into that home with her two

18:09 daughters. So this was in August of 2006.

18:12 Yeah, in 2008. This is just giving you a bit of

18:15 a background on Angelica and her, I don't know, her MO I

18:20 guess. Yeah, she was working in a

18:21 newsagent and her her employment there was terminated because she

18:26 stole one of her Co workers credit cards and was using it to

18:30 buy all manner of shit. Like what the fuck?

18:34 Yeah, number one, you don't shit where you eat.

18:39 But why? If you're gonna steal someone's

18:41 credit card, why are you stealing your Co workers credit

18:43 card? Yeah, she's an interesting.

18:45 Person. She's such an interesting

18:47 person. Of this, there's so much to her

18:49 that I just. Yeah, really intriguing.

18:52 Oh, I find her so intriguing. Yeah.

18:54 She was also studying accounting at TAFE at the time.

18:57 Yeah. Yeah.

18:58 I did you find out that? Did she ever finish that?

19:00 No, because basically the day before, the day before she like

19:04 this murder. Basically she, well, the day

19:06 before Bonnie went missing. Yeah, she actually had an exam

19:10 that day. Oh, right.

19:11 So from where it went from there, I don't know like

19:14 because. OK, yeah, all this trash, all

19:16 this. So obviously that just kind of

19:18 went nowhere. I don't think so.

19:19 Like, but then again, who knows? She might have finished it after

19:23 she's sitting in jail. I don't know, like I don't.

19:25 Have no idea. Let's wait and see, yeah?

19:27 I mean, who gives a fuck really? But there's a long history of

19:30 her with a number of issues with criminal kind of things that

19:34 weren't necessarily convicted or anything, but you know.

19:37 I know it wasn't only criminal issues as well.

19:40 Like she had a real trouble making friends and keeping

19:43 friends, maintaining any sorts of relationships, be it romantic

19:46 or not. Yeah.

19:48 And I, from what I can gather from different bits and pieces,

19:52 like putting different reports together, yes, she had a very

19:55 abrasive personality. Yeah.

19:57 Yeah, she was, yeah. Just not somebody.

20:01 She wasn't somebody that people were drawn to or anything like.

20:04 That no. No.

20:07 So basically the timeline of all of this, Yeah, in November of

20:14 2007, Therese Malloy, who was the ex neighbor I was talking

20:20 about, who was Vonnie's friend, was chatting with Vonnie, and

20:25 she basically said, Vonnie said to Therese that there was this

20:31 young woman who approached her about becoming her carer, Right.

20:35 So at this point, Vonnie had broken her wrist.

20:38 So yeah, in 2008, August 2008, she'd broken her arm and like

20:41 she was, Vonnie was willing to take take some assistance during

20:44 that time. But as we said, she's very

20:46 independent sort of person. So she wasn't really wanting

20:48 like too much help. She took on meals, on meals to

20:52 help her with that sort of things.

20:53 She would have someone come in and help help her with the

20:55 showering. And she did have some transport

20:58 support with, you know, for appointments, being that, you

21:01 know, her neighbor and things like you mentioned.

21:03 But yeah, but this when. Yeah.

21:05 This is where it gets really weird because this random young

21:10 woman appears at Bonnie's door offering to be her carer.

21:15 Yeah. Now she, Vonnie, has discussed

21:19 this with several people. Yeah.

21:21 The first person she told apparently was Sharon, her

21:24 neighbor. And this was on one of her

21:25 visits to the doctor, following up like something with her

21:29 broken arm. Yes.

21:30 And Vonnie just mentioned to Sharon that this had happened.

21:36 And Sharon was like, oh, that's a bit weird.

21:37 But kind of dismissed it because Vonnie dismissed it like she

21:40 was, she was like, oh, I didn't. It made me feel a bit

21:43 uncomfortable, but I just told her to go away because.

21:45 At first, yeah. If you just told it no, like go

21:46 away. And she's got, we sort of go.

21:48 Well, OK, so maybe there was a, you know, some sort of

21:50 connection of like a council, you know, get in touch with

21:52 these people. You know, there's different

21:54 services they provide and someone's rocked up and they've

21:57 been a bit a bit of a miscommunication that she had

22:00 already said no, she didn't want that sort of stuff.

22:01 And they've rocked up and so Vonnie's had to tell them no,

22:04 no, no, I really don't. Yeah.

22:05 Goodbye. Yeah, I don't, I think our first

22:07 initial like contact of that you'd kind of be a bit.

22:09 Like I think. It's a bit weird, but OK.

22:11 Yeah, then this person was clearly quite persistent,

22:14 because then Therese, her former neighbor, Yeah, reports that

22:18 Vonnie mentioned she was really afraid of this young woman.

22:21 She'd approached her multiple times and apparently, according

22:26 to Therese, she had. Vonnie had said to her that this

22:31 woman, this young woman had said to her, You can pay me and I can

22:35 move in like she was. So forceful, and like she was

22:38 forceful in language in that way.

22:40 But she was also like she'd come and knock on her front door and

22:43 then when Vonnie would ignore her because she didn't want to

22:45 answer it, she'd then go to the side window and then she'd go to

22:48 the back door and continue. Like it wasn't like she was

22:51 taking, she was not taking no for an answer.

22:53 No at all. So then the next report comes

22:55 from Donald, which includes all of this persistent behaviour.

22:58 And according to Donald, this young woman has said to Vonnie,

23:02 I'm here to be your carer. Vonnie said no, I don't need

23:05 one, thank you very much. And she said, yes, you do.

23:09 I'm going to do the job. Like you're almost making it so

23:14 that this poor old woman can't say no.

23:18 I think, Therese said to Vonnie. You probably need to just let

23:22 the police know about you just 'cause it's, it's not OK, It's

23:25 unsolicited. Yeah, you haven't asked for

23:27 this. And but I I'm not sure if I

23:30 don't think Vonnie ever contacted the police.

23:33 No, I don't believe so. No, but no.

23:35 So only it was family and friends who knew about it.

23:37 But. Police and hadn't gotten any

23:39 further. Yeah, OK.

23:40 Yeah. What Vonnie did tell Donald.

23:45 So this is probably third or fourth time that this young

23:48 woman's been knocking on her door.

23:49 She's like, I actually do recognize her from down the

23:54 street. And so it wasn't somebody that

23:58 was completely unfamiliar to her.

24:00 All right, let's just sort of keep that in the back of the

24:02 mind. Yeah.

24:03 So we're now in December, early December, the 2nd of December in

24:07 2008. So tell across call between 7:00

24:10 and 9:00 AM At some point on that morning as well, Sharon saw

24:14 her pottering around in her yard, which was something that

24:16 she did every day. Yeah.

24:18 And you know, they did the hello, whatever. 3rd of

24:21 December, the scheduled telecross call happened at 8:45

24:24 AM Yeah. Again, everything seemed to be

24:27 OK and about. She answered that and yeah, all.

24:29 Good. And that was fine.

24:30 Yeah, on the 4th of December, the usual call was made by

24:33 Telecross. No answer.

24:36 And they called multiple times over the next hour or so.

24:41 And now this was something, if Vonnie was ever travelling, she

24:44 would let them know that she wasn't going to be there to take

24:47 the call. She would also let neighbors

24:50 know if she wasn't going to be home.

24:51 Yep, they helped each other with bins and keeping an eye on

24:54 houses and all of that sort of stuff that you do for your

24:56 neighbors. And anyway, so this concerned

25:01 the Telecross caller enough that they actually contacted the

25:04 police straight away. They have like a protocol of

25:06 like, you know, if if they don't answer, they try again this, you

25:09 know, these many minutes later and and then if there's no

25:12 answer at this point, then they contact the police.

25:14 That's just their protocol. Welfare check.

25:15 Yeah, yeah. To the police's credit, yeah,

25:19 they actually got to Vonnie's house at 8:26 AM.

25:23 Sorry, 10:26 AM Yeah. So this would have been within

25:26 minutes of that call coming through for a, well, fair check.

25:28 And yeah, I I think that's brilliant.

25:31 Yes, that is absolutely amazing. That is what should happen

25:33 because Lord only knows she could have fallen and broken her

25:36 hip and she. Could be laying the bathroom

25:37 floor or something and she needs help.

25:39 That's right. You just don't know.

25:40 Yeah, so they knocked on the door and no answer.

25:46 So the constable who went there, Constable riding, he went around

25:49 the back and he ended up actually breaking a window so

25:51 that he'll gain access to the house.

25:53 Yeah. When he went in, he noted that

25:55 the house was very neat and tidy, but Vonnie was nowhere to

25:58 be seen. Yeah, there was nothing really

26:01 out of the ordinary. They.

26:02 Noticed that there was a hole in the ceiling.

26:05 Yeah, but it was where like a manhole cover had been moved.

26:07 Yeah, it wasn't a hole. It was like.

26:09 The manhole cover into the ceiling cavity had been moved.

26:12 And he also noted that there were a lot of plastic bags

26:15 present. In one room, yeah.

26:17 At the time, yeah. Yeah.

26:18 So again, in a house that's neat and tidy, that was just

26:21 something that to him he went, oh, that's interesting.

26:23 Was it at this point or was it the following day that I think

26:26 it was Sharon's husband or another neighbor had noticed?

26:30 Yeah, I'm sure it was. And he noticed that some tiles

26:32 on the roof looked like they had been moved.

26:34 So he reported that to police the following day.

26:36 I don't know when he noticed it, though he might have noticed it

26:39 that day. Yeah, yeah.

26:41 So he was out putting bins out, and he realized that her bins

26:43 weren't out yet. And that's when he sort of

26:45 looking over to her house, realized, saw these, like tiles

26:47 on the roof. A number of them, you know, had

26:49 been moved. So yeah, like what?

26:52 That's weird. Yeah.

26:54 So this so I think then the constable's gone back to the

26:59 station and they. Yeah, they did leave a card and

27:01 because at this point they not. So they went back to leave the

27:04 card. So this, so this this officer,

27:07 he's broken a window, checked it out.

27:08 Everything's fine. He's just left.

27:10 Yeah, I think he's gone back to the back to the station and to

27:14 hold his Sergeant. What had happened?

27:15 The sergeant's like, well, you've got to leave a card

27:17 because if she comes home now. Someone's she's gonna be

27:19 someone's broken. Into her house, yeah.

27:21 So then the Sergeant goes back and he leaves a card in the

27:24 letterbox initially because. I guess at this point, all they

27:26 can they can assume is maybe she's gone shopping for the day.

27:30 Yeah. And you know, I mean, you know,

27:31 and just not being there to make, you know, answer the call.

27:33 You can't assume too much at this point.

27:35 Yeah. But I guess you have to assume a

27:37 certain amount. Yeah.

27:38 You know what I mean? Now, on this same day at 9:50

27:41 PM, so I think this was when the bins were being put out, the

27:45 neighbors called the police again because they noticed her

27:48 front door was wide open. Yes.

27:50 Now, again, this is not something Vonnie would ever do,

27:53 no. And so the three police officers

27:55 attended and again, really quickly, like hats off the essay

27:58 poll for this. Yeah, the house at this time so

28:03 noted that at, you know, 10:30 in the morning, the house was

28:06 neat and tidy. Yeah, by 9:50 PM that same day,

28:10 the house is in disarray. It looks like it's in the

28:12 process of being packed up. Yeah.

28:15 And there were plastic bags everywhere full of shit.

28:18 Like not literal shit it. Was like this thing packed up.

28:21 Everything was being like as if someone was moving, like we're

28:23 going away or like, yeah, everything was.

28:26 Yeah, it was very clear to the attending police officers that

28:29 someone had been in the house between 10:30 AM and 9:50 PM,

28:33 Yes, but there was no one in the house that they knew of.

28:36 At that point, yeah. OK, so now on the 5th of

28:39 December at 11:00 AM, so this is the following day, the Sergeant

28:44 went back to check to see if the card that he'd left in the

28:47 letterbox had been taken out. So had Bonnie come back?

28:51 Yeah. And realized what had gone on,

28:54 taking the card out. What he noticed was that the

28:57 card was still there. So he took the card out of the

29:00 letterbox and he slid it under the front door.

29:03 OK, at 7:30 that night, he's obviously directed his some more

29:09 offices to go back and just double check again.

29:11 Like, something wasn't quite sitting right with this entire

29:13 situation. Roger, who was Sharon's husband,

29:17 He's the one who noticed the roof tiles had been moved.

29:19 He he asked the police at that point, can I repair them because

29:22 I don't want there to be rain or don't want animals to get in

29:25 there. Yeah.

29:26 And like ruin Vonnie's. House and also the back window

29:28 too. Yeah, and.

29:29 Brought it up because again, that was Open Access to the.

29:32 House. Yeah, someone could.

29:34 Now if someone hadn't already, maybe someone else could break

29:36 in like with this. Yeah, and the police were like,

29:39 Yep, that's fine, you can go and do that.

29:40 Brought it up the window fix the replace the roof tiles I guess.

29:44 I mean, in hindsight, I'm like reading this and hearing all

29:47 this as I like researchers. I'm like, it's a fucking crime.

29:51 Scene termination. But you know what?

29:54 He was just a neighbor concerned for his neighbour's house.

29:57 Yes. Look at this stage, I don't

29:59 think the police, they didn't really know what they were

30:02 dealing with, to be fair. No.

30:04 OK, so we're now on. We're now at the 6th of

30:08 December. Yeah.

30:10 The police card is still on the floor.

30:12 OK. When they go back the next day,

30:15 then there's a couple of days there where the police don't

30:18 attend. Then on the 8th of December, the

30:23 police go back because again, they still haven't had

30:26 confirmation of a sighting of Bonnie.

30:28 And she's still technically like, on their books as needing

30:33 a welfare check. So that, you know, that she

30:35 hasn't been sighted And, yeah, ticked off, basically.

30:38 She's fine. Yeah.

30:39 So the police go over there and they're like, I think we

30:41 probably need to check the ceiling because we know there

30:44 were tiles disturbed. This manhole cover on the inside

30:46 of the house was removed, which is odd.

30:48 They checked the ceiling. There's nothing there, no

30:50 evidence, nothing that they can, nothing visible that they can

30:54 see. Right. 9th of December.

30:58 This is where it starts to actually get interesting.

31:02 Angelica took a Power of Attorney document, a signed

31:07 document that was supposedly signed by Vonnie on the 11th of

31:11 November in 2008 to the ANZ Bank where Vonnie held an account to

31:17 withdraw $2000. Is that right?

31:20 $2000 yeah. Now, again, hats off to this

31:24 bank teller. Yeah, because the bank teller's,

31:26 like I saw on the news the other day that Vonnie's missing and

31:33 this woman's now trying to withdraw money from Vonnie's

31:35 account. She calls the police in front of

31:38 Angelica. Yeah.

31:40 And it's like, here you go. You can talk though they.

31:42 Were like, yeah, like he got on the phone to the cops.

31:45 I love that. I love that too, yeah.

31:47 So the police are like, well, where?

31:49 Why are you throwing money from Vonnie's account?

31:51 Where is she? Do you know where she is?

31:53 Have you seen her and? She's like, no, I haven't seen

31:54 her since the 27th of November, but she's asked me to do some.

31:58 She's gone away. Yeah.

31:59 She's asked me to do some renovations on her house.

32:01 Stations on her house while she's away.

32:04 And that's what the $2000 is. For now we should say Vonnie was

32:08 also expected to go on a trip in the in this period of time, not

32:13 not on the 4th or the 3rd of December.

32:15 I feel like it was more like a few days after.

32:17 Yeah, like it was. It was much it.

32:18 Was it was a fair bit after yeah.

32:20 So yeah, she was planning a trip, but not at this point in a

32:24 family fully knew when her trips were planned as to their

32:26 neighbors. Yeah.

32:27 So no, no yeah. So she this, it just gets me.

32:33 She's so brazenly, like on the phone to these cops going, Oh,

32:37 yeah. And I was told you've been at

32:38 renovations. Yeah, and they're like, did you

32:39 realize she's missing? And Angelica's like, no, didn't.

32:43 The random teller knows that she's missing, but the person

32:46 who's supposedly being told you renovations at her home doesn't

32:49 know she's missing. So the police like, does this

32:53 sound right? No, it doesn't.

32:55 So we're going to follow this up a little further.

32:56 Yeah. And they decided.

32:58 So this is now on the 10th of December.

33:00 The following morning, they search Angelica's house.

33:03 Now, Angelica lived at 72 Scots Glade Rd. in Christie Downs, so

33:08 not far from from Vonnie's house.

33:12 Yeah. What we do know as well is that

33:15 in Vonnie St. Angelica's mom also lived.

33:18 Yes. OK.

33:19 So that's very close in proximity to.

33:20 A chair, yeah, that's just definitely worth noting.

33:23 Yeah, the. Police and Angelica's mom, we

33:25 should say also she knew Vonnie like not to have a conversation

33:30 with, but to say hi to like. Ministry speak English no.

33:33 So yes, they knew each other by sight.

33:36 They. Would smile at each other and

33:37 wave and things like that. There was communication between

33:40 them, but not conversation. Yeah, 100%.

33:42 Again, just very neighborly and all of that.

33:48 I think Irina had a family, a Latvian family daycare, Yeah.

33:52 So she had lots of kids around all the time and would be out

33:55 and about in the community. So people did know her, to look

33:59 at her and wave and say hi and all that sort of thing.

34:02 Yeah. So the police, this is now on

34:05 the 10th of December when they're searching Angelica's

34:07 house, they suspected fraud because she's presented to the

34:12 bank with what they're already thinking is probably a

34:15 fraudulent document to withdraw this $2000.

34:18 The withdrawal never happened. They she was not allowed.

34:20 To withdraw that, no. Thankfully, yeah, not allowed to

34:23 withdraw that. You know that 2 grand that.

34:26 No Should we? Also, I'm not sure if it was

34:28 this early on that they realized this or not.

34:30 Oh no, probably not actually. But what Angelica also did was

34:35 she impersonated Vonnie to. She called the Salvation Army to

34:40 come and collect furniture. She impersonated her on the

34:43 phone call to the council to come and collect hard rubbish.

34:46 So. Yeah, she was.

34:48 There was a being dodgy going on.

34:50 Yeah. At Angelica's house.

34:52 What the police found was interesting.

34:55 Yeah. They found Vonnie's pension

34:57 card, this little Bolognese table that was in Vonnie's home.

35:00 Very distinctive. Like it's not something that you

35:02 could just go down this to Kmart and, you know, buy.

35:05 No, it was Diamond Dump and it was.

35:06 And they did ask her that. They asked Alan.

35:08 Have you been overseas and, you know, been to Bali or anything?

35:10 She's like, no like, but she's got these actual Bolognese

35:14 furniture that has come from Bali, like.

35:17 A toaster oven that belonged to Vonnie.

35:20 Yeah, Vonnie's passport, keys to her house.

35:24 Yeah, and many other little Nicknacky type items.

35:27 Yeah, and lots of other personal documents.

35:29 Documents. Yeah, so she had a lot of

35:31 Vonnie's shit. Yeah, the search history on

35:34 Angelica's computer is an also an interesting thing.

35:38 Oh yes, Oh yes. She's she's a fucking.

35:44 I love the way the cop said to her at one point.

35:47 You've got a clear fascination with true crime.

35:50 Yeah, I mean, don't we all? Not not to the.

35:54 So she looked up. She looked up like murderers,

35:56 female murderers. She looked up DNA, how DNA

36:00 works, how you leave DNA behind, how police can identify your

36:04 DNA. Yeah, she also searched and was

36:09 and was on the land titles website for hours.

36:13 Yeah. How do you sell a home without a

36:15 real estate agent? Yeah.

36:17 How do you sell a home that's not in your name?

36:19 So she didn't actually search? No.

36:20 But I think that's probably what she was looking for.

36:23 Yeah. And then she also spent some

36:26 time accessing Vonnie's ANZ bank account online.

36:30 Now, as you said, she's you're right, it was around this time

36:33 she contacted the council and contacted the Silver's to pick

36:36 all that stuff up. Yeah, now so.

36:39 Yeah, basically you're looking at someone who's clearly got an

36:42 intention to sell that house. Yeah, like she's clearing out

36:46 the furniture. She's looking.

36:48 Up Google search things of how to like sell this place.

36:50 Like what? Yeah, the police like what the

36:53 fuck is who? Is this woman and what's going

36:55 on? It took them until the 6th of

36:57 January in 2009 to inform Angelica that she was suspected

37:04 in the murder of Bonnie. Yeah.

37:06 The way that this happened was the police went to her home,

37:09 went to Angelica's home, and Angelica's two daughters were

37:13 home with her at the time. She called her mom, Irina, and

37:17 she came over to look after the girls while what she suspected

37:23 was Angelica was being questioned.

37:25 Angelica told her it was because she'd stolen something.

37:29 Yeah, and which my mom was like, well, yeah, checks out.

37:32 You've done that before, 100. Percent think that you would do

37:34 that. So yeah, it wasn't until much,

37:39 much later that she realized exactly what the extent of this

37:43 was. Yeah.

37:44 Now, on the 23rd of Feb in 2009, the partial remains of Vonnie's

37:54 body was found at the Creek that ran literally out the back of

37:58 Angelica's house. Yeah, like literally across the

38:02 road, like right there. Yeah, right across.

38:04 Right across the road, yeah. From her home, Yeah.

38:08 The head, arms and legs had been removed from her torso.

38:14 The cause of death was unable to be determined because of the

38:18 extensive decomposition. So we're talking 2 1/2 months

38:22 from the time that Vonnie disappeared until these remains

38:26 were found. So extensive decomposition,

38:29 especially when you consider the fact that it's over summer

38:32 Adelaide's heart. Falls, yeah.

38:34 And they also found, at the same time, pieces of a statue that

38:40 had belonged to Vonnie. Yes.

38:43 And they were found in and amongst these other body parts.

38:46 Body parts and. We should, I guess, say like the

38:49 body parts that were found were not her head, her hands.

38:54 Yeah, head or hands. Head and hands, that's.

38:56 Right, so there were other like. So not all body parts were found

38:58 at this point. What they were able to determine

39:01 on autopsy was the fact that a hacksaw had been used to to

39:06 dismember the body. Remember her body?

39:09 Yeah. Just.

39:13 Yeah. So a couple of days into the

39:14 search now, because they were still looking, they'd found her

39:17 torso and her legs and her arms, because the police were still

39:22 looking for her head and her hands.

39:24 They were still searching along the Creek.

39:26 And a couple of days after they discovered her torso, they found

39:31 an abandoned pram. Yes, now this pram was hidden in

39:35 scrub along this same Creek trail and the stroller was

39:40 actually shown on the Evening News that night.

39:43 Yes, because there was massive interest in this case in SA.

39:47 I do not remember hearing anything about it here.

39:49 But I don't think it was reported here, which is insane.

39:52 I got Yep Yep. So Agnes Dombrovska, who was

39:56 Angelica's sister, was watching the news and she saw that pram.

40:01 And she's like, Oh my God, I recognize that pram.

40:04 There was a piece on the back of it that and you know that like

40:08 between the wheels and we've all had prams in the past that, you

40:11 know, like it had a little piece that had fallen off like, and it

40:14 still worked perfectly fine. But there was a little piece

40:15 that had like come between those two and was dangling off.

40:18 And this pram had that exact, like she could see it in the

40:21 news that this had the same piece that was broken like, and

40:24 it was dripping, hanging down a bit, which I mean, you can

40:27 recognize a pram by brand and things like that.

40:29 They all look very similar. But that was a really, you know,

40:32 like a distinctive thing that went that is that exact pram.

40:35 That's not just like, oh, that's the same pram that I've seen.

40:38 That's that pram. Yeah, yeah.

40:41 Because Arena had a family daycare, she had lots of prams

40:45 at her house that she would then obviously use to take kids to

40:48 the park and do all of those types of things.

40:50 Yeah, and a sister would often like borrow it when she'd go to

40:53 her place or go to her mom's place, and she'd like borrow it

40:55 to take her kids out as well, so that she'd use this pram.

40:58 And I was going to say she knew it.

41:00 Yeah. She knew it 100% knew that was

41:02 the same stroller. Yeah.

41:04 She then contacted the police and told them that.

41:07 Yeah, again, hats off to her. Yeah, that would be tough, a

41:14 tough thing to do, but. I think what to how much was she

41:17 putting together? Like, you know.

41:19 Well, I think, I mean, at this stage, they knew Angelica had

41:22 been arrested for something. Yes.

41:24 They knew Ronnie was missing. And the other thing that's

41:28 really incriminating is the fact that Angelica had a conversation

41:34 with her mom where she basically confessed to everything.

41:38 Yeah, yeah. And I don't know whether Irina

41:42 had then told Agnes about this conversation, because from my

41:45 understanding, I think Irina kept a lot of things to herself.

41:50 Yes, you get. That impression now I

41:51 definitely. Do yes and so yeah, I'm not sure

41:55 how much Agnes actually knew but she was like fuck this I've.

41:58 I've seen that pusher that belongs to my mum like I'm I'm

42:00 calling the police about this Good on her.

42:02 The DNA. So the stroller was then tested

42:05 for DNA. I'm assuming by this point the

42:07 police like who knows what we're going to find it's been sitting

42:10 out here potentially for months and it looked like it had been

42:12 sitting out there for months like it was weather worn and

42:14 filthy yeah. They actually got DNA off the

42:17 seat of that pusher. Yeah.

42:19 That belonged to Vonnie. Yeah.

42:22 Yeah. They also found DNA belonging to

42:26 Vonnie in the boot Evangelica's car.

42:28 Yes. Now eyewitnesses saw there was

42:31 also. Blood on the pram too, yes, as

42:34 well as the DNA, like there was. Yeah, yeah.

42:37 Eyewitnesses reported seeing Angelica push this pusher down

42:42 the Creek trail with plastic bags in it.

42:46 Now, it's really hard to corroborate that because these

42:51 people came forward after a lot of these details had been

42:54 released to the public. So they're not necessarily

42:59 reliable witnesses. I'm not saying they were lying.

43:02 They they, you know, they fully think that they saw her

43:06 potentially, now, we know, transporting Vonnie's body.

43:09 Yeah. But really hard to kind of hold

43:13 up in court. This that was a these people did

43:16 testify in the trial, but I don't know that a lot of weight

43:18 was given to their testimony. Yeah, there was quite a few that

43:21 would be dismissed by the judge. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

43:24 And I can, I can actually understand that.

43:25 Yeah, I can. Yeah, so Angelica was charged

43:29 with the murder of Vonnie. She pleaded not guilty.

43:32 Yeah, now her first statement first.

43:35 Version of events. Version of events.

43:37 Let me go through what the police allege first, actually,

43:39 and then we'll get to Angelica's version of events.

43:42 So the police allege that Angelica battered Vonnie with

43:47 one of her own statues, which is what they found remnants of with

43:52 in and amongst her body parts. Dismembered her body with a

43:55 hacksaw. Yeah, transported her body back

43:59 to her house in the boot of her car and then disposed of it via

44:05 the pusher down the Creek. Path.

44:07 Yeah. So while she kept it at her

44:09 place, she bare it in the backyard under the kids cubby.

44:15 That's that is so fucked up. Do we know what did they how

44:19 long did they allege she kept her body there for?

44:21 I think it was like 5 days. Oh, Jesus.

44:24 I think it was five. Yeah, 5.

44:25 Days. Oh my God, that's disgusting.

44:29 Yeah. And her kids were playing on

44:30 that cubby house. As well as well as other kids

44:34 that were, you know, around that's, I don't know, like.

44:36 Yeah. Oh, that is so friggin awful.

44:38 I didn't realize it was that long.

44:39 I I thought it was like overnight.

44:41 I believe it was like, I'm pretty sure it was.

44:43 Well, because they don't really know.

44:44 Yeah, the exact date. They're assuming like, well,

44:47 there's Philly. Philly.

44:49 Yeah. Fairly tight timeline because of

44:50 the phone calls that were made by Telecross of like when things

44:52 occurred. Yeah.

44:53 So yeah, they believe it's five days.

44:55 Oh. My gosh.

44:57 So the defence, so basically at this stage her defence is I

45:01 didn't kill Vonnie, I just took advantage of her missing, yeah,

45:06 to get her money. Yeah, her words were, oh God, it

45:08 was really awful. She's I just, I, oh God.

45:11 There was a real quote from her from her interview saying I

45:14 just, I basically, yeah, took advantage of the moment and like

45:17 sort, sort of thought that, you know, that I could, I could get

45:20 something out of this. Yeah, that they're the words she

45:22 used. Yeah, that's exactly what it

45:23 was. It was like I could get

45:24 something from this. Yeah.

45:26 So she was fucking psycho. Yeah.

45:27 Basically saying, you know, oh, someone down the street from me

45:30 has gone missing. Well, you know, oh, she's got a

45:31 good house. I could make money off of

45:33 selling that like, oh, you know, And so if I do this.

45:35 So she was admitting that to that portion of like, you know,

45:38 fraud in terms of the power of attorney and, you know, stealing

45:41 things and planning to sell the house.

45:42 She was admitting to that. But I don't know.

45:44 I don't know what happened to her.

45:46 I just would have went, oh, she's missing.

45:47 Sweet. I'll go so her body her.

45:50 Body is literally found at the front of your house.

45:52 Yeah. Across the road from where you

45:53 live. Yeah.

45:54 Oh my God. Honestly.

45:55 Was before the body was found that she was admitted to that.

45:57 Yeah, that's true actually. So.

45:59 The body was found. She then changed her story

46:01 again. It's.

46:01 Absolutely right. You're absolutely right.

46:03 Yeah. When this all went to trial, the

46:07 witnesses that came forward and gave testimony, Vonnie's

46:12 brother, neighbors, the Red Cross staff, the Telecross

46:15 staff, and even the McDonald's staff who because she went to

46:17 McDonald's like all the time and it was quite a regular thing.

46:20 On that third, that's on the 3rd of December, she had gone to

46:24 breakfast. She'd she'd answered her phone

46:25 call at 8:45 as we said on from Telecross and then she'd gone to

46:29 McDonald's. So there were things sightings

46:31 that we knew where she'd been on the on December 3rd.

46:34 Yeah. And the other interesting person

46:37 to give testimony was Inara. Yes.

46:40 So Inara is, you know, again, I think hats off to her.

46:47 She obviously knew her daughter was a bit of a bad egg, but.

46:49 They actually, the court was so good with this, they, they took,

46:53 they, they paused everything for her to like get legal advice.

46:58 Yep, on because because she said she said independently that she

47:01 would give. Testimony, yeah, but they really

47:03 want to be sure that she was OK with this and that because, I

47:05 mean, as being a parent, she doesn't have to.

47:08 And also English, it was her second language that he needed

47:10 to make sure interpreters really understood as well.

47:13 Yeah. What she was doing, what the

47:15 potential implications of that are.

47:16 Yeah. And she still decided to go

47:18 ahead with it. So with a Latvian interpreter,

47:20 yes. She gave testimony.

47:22 Yeah. So.

47:23 Another person that gave testimony was someone that was

47:26 in a cell with. This is so fun.

47:29 With Angelica, her name is Amanda Patterson.

47:31 Amanda. Yeah.

47:32 Who? Look, the judge kind of

47:34 dismissed what she had to say, although to me it kind of checks

47:37 out. Totally.

47:39 But yeah, it's like a bit old. It is.

47:42 But she basically was saying that in jail together, sitting

47:45 there waiting for her trial. Angelica had confessed to her

47:47 what she had done. And so that was her testimony

47:50 was like, you know, that she had had murdered Bonnie and all

47:54 these. But yeah, the judge was

47:55 basically this person was Amanda was in jail for like telling

47:59 lies as well, literally, literally.

48:01 So she was like, I'm not gonna really put too much weight on

48:04 what you've got to say. So as much as the court heard

48:06 it, it wasn't really. But do you want to know?

48:08 You don't want to know what? Like basically the biggest point

48:11 of difference was about Amanda's testimony was that she said that

48:16 Angelica told her that she got some kind of of like sexual

48:20 pleasure that's. Right.

48:22 Yeah, from doing, from murdering this old lady.

48:25 That's just. Oh so.

48:28 Rank. So rank.

48:29 Which Amanda was repulsed by, which she was kind of saying

48:32 that I have to tell you this because this was like, even for

48:35 me, Yeah, I can't even handle this.

48:37 Yeah. Which, yeah, if that's if that

48:38 was said to her. Oh God.

48:40 But then again, you've got to take either.

48:42 Way, I don't know. I don't know whether that or

48:45 not. The part of it that I can't, I

48:47 can come at is that Angelica did it.

48:49 Well, so let's get to, Yeah, Anara's testimony.

48:52 Yes. So Angelica's mom testified

48:56 about a conversation that she had, which I alluded to before,

48:59 but she basically said that Angelica told her that she got

49:03 into the house via the roof. When Vonnie went to Macca's for

49:07 breakfast that morning. Yeah, she waited in the roof

49:11 cavity. So which goes to the fact like

49:13 it's premeditation. Premeditation.

49:15 Not only that, she has stalked her because she has watched her

49:18 behaviour and gone. I know that roughly, this time

49:21 every morning she goes to McDonald's for breakfast.

49:24 I can go hide in her house. She literally said that to her

49:27 mum. She's like, I've been watching

49:28 her. That was a direct quote.

49:30 Yeah, that's just. So she said then said that she

49:32 made Vonnie unconscious and left her.

49:36 Made her unconscious. Now, I'm assuming that's where

49:38 this statue came into play. Yeah.

49:41 She came back later, wrapped her in plastic and put her in the

49:45 boot of her car and transported her, as you said, to her

49:47 backyard. This is all Nara's testimony.

49:50 Yeah, Inara saw her on TV, that Vonnie was missing and that

49:54 Angelica had tried to withdraw money from her account.

49:57 And this is where Inara put all of this stuff all together.

50:01 Yeah. And was like, holy fuck, my

50:03 daughter has murdered an old lady.

50:06 She then tried to backtrack on that confession, as in Angelica

50:10 to her mum, tried to backtrack on that and was like, oh, I was

50:12 only joking. I wasn't.

50:13 It wasn't for real. I was just saying what might

50:15 have, you know, what might have happened.

50:17 Like I could have done that. Yeah.

50:20 The judge, So this is all again, still all part of NRS testimony.

50:24 The judge described Angelica's backtracking as damage control.

50:28 She was just, she was just trying to, you know, keep her

50:31 own best interests at heart. So by the time Angelica came,

50:40 sorry, Angelica decided in her own trial to give testimony

50:44 herself. Now to me, this speaks to a

50:48 narcissistic personality type. Doesn't it 100% I I don't know

50:52 that there are many people that will get up at their own trial

50:56 who were not narcissists. Agreed that that's what I think

50:59 too. I'm like who the fuck would do

51:00 that? Also I I this I found really

51:03 interesting. The judge made a comment in his

51:05 sentencing so this is getting a bit ahead.

51:06 But he made a comment in his sentencing where he said that

51:11 she had the best lawyers money could buy.

51:14 Yeah. Where did she get that money

51:15 from? So what I'm saying is she had

51:19 really good legal representation.

51:20 I don't know. I don't know how, but she did.

51:23 But. She because she did refuse free

51:24 legal, yes, she she was eligible for free legal advice and she

51:29 refused that. That's right.

51:30 So I don't know where she got the money from to pay these.

51:33 Whether or not they would have. Advised her for sure.

51:35 Yeah, and I wonder if they were these lawyers were like, oh,

51:38 like. We're in pro bono.

51:39 Pro bono because. It's a good publicity.

51:41 Yeah, maybe. I don't know.

51:43 But I mean, you were never getting her off it.

51:45 I mean God. No, no God.

51:47 Anyway, so that was just, I didn't really see how she had

51:51 the means to afford these. Amazing.

51:53 Lawyers. Not at all.

51:54 I don't know about that. Yeah.

51:55 But anyway, they would have advised her, I have no doubt,

51:58 not to testify. But she did.

52:00 Yeah. And when she testified, she

52:03 changed her story. So she's just insanity.

52:07 She's a fucking. She's a Nutter, so she basically

52:11 said that her ex Giuseppe Dianelli hit Vonnie with his

52:16 car. Had an accident and killed her.

52:18 And killed her. Then he rang Angelica.

52:21 Now, I don't believe their split was all that amicable.

52:24 Oh, Oh no, no, no. Do you not know the story?

52:27 About her ago. Oh.

52:28 My God that their relationship was toxic as fuck.

52:30 I'll go. So at one point I think it was

52:33 the end of it, they ended up in court right?

52:36 Because she was accusing him of being abusive and all this and

52:39 that he had broken her legs leg. That's right.

52:41 Yes, Yes. Yes, and so in in the court, in

52:44 that court, however it came out, I couldn't read the entire

52:47 transcript of these this court case.

52:48 But at the end of that, the judge had turned to them and

52:51 said that Angelica was so unbelievable that there is no

52:56 truth to she one didn't even have ever have a broken leg.

52:58 Like it's not like she'd broken her leg and fallen, fallen over

53:01 and breaking her leg and she used that to advantage or

53:03 something. She'd literally not broken her

53:04 leg like, so he was like, so you're so uncredible that I'm

53:11 throwing this all out and that we and found in favour of

53:13 Giuseppe and that he had never been abusive and it was all

53:16 made-up by Angelica. But what was she trying to

53:18 achieve by doing that? Getting.

53:20 More oh, just getting more out of him for child supports and

53:23 all these sorts and I think just custody and stuff like that

53:25 gonna. Give you more money.

53:26 No. And I, I, no, I think it was

53:28 more of a custody thing or, or the, or the separation of, you

53:31 know, assets. I'm not.

53:32 Really. Sure.

53:32 OK. But yeah, it was a really she's

53:35 she's, she's got some serious issues.

53:37 So the fact that she then says that he called her in his moment

53:40 of need, no. Yeah, they hadn't spoken in like

53:43 years. Yeah, they had obviously

53:45 communicated in terms of very minimal to do with their child,

53:49 but they. Didn't even have like they

53:51 didn't talk to each. Other no, they did not speak to

53:53 each other like as in that's what I mean.

53:54 Like there was maybe a message here or there of like, you know,

53:57 I'm picking up their child at this time, but there was no

54:00 actual communication between women.

54:01 He was like, she's the last person on earth.

54:03 I would call for help. Like, I don't even speak to her.

54:07 She. Then says she's she said sorry.

54:12 Angelica then says that Giuseppe came and got her.

54:16 Yeah, they then went because. So apparently when he hit her

54:19 with his car, he dragged her into her house, as in into

54:22 Vonnie's house. How he would know that she lived

54:24 there, I don't know that that part of the story wasn't told.

54:28 He then picked up Angelica, took her back to Vonnie's house where

54:31 they wrapped her body in plastic and then got rid of her.

54:34 Yeah, that's how she says that all came about.

54:39 Giuseppe like ends up obviously he then he's called to the stand

54:42 to like Then after this all transpires, because I think the

54:45 whole court's a bit like, wait, this is a whole.

54:47 New stop what? So he ends up, you know, coming

54:51 onto the stand and they question him and he literally laughs at

54:54 this as a proposition of what occurred.

54:56 Like, he's like, this is just laughable.

54:59 Like I don't speak to her. Yeah, and also he had an alibi

55:03 for the day A. Thai alibi he.

55:05 Was at his nephew's birthday party.

55:06 There's like photos. There's video. 30K away.

55:08 Yeah. He could.

55:10 It's it's it's. Physically impossible for him to

55:12 be in the area to have this, for this to have occurred.

55:15 Exactly, Yeah. And when you match that up with

55:17 like when the police attended, there just was no physical way

55:20 he could have done it. No, Oh my God, it's just, it's,

55:25 it's fucking, it's actually bonkers.

55:28 Oh, absolutely. She is, absolutely.

55:30 We didn't say this before. This was actually a judge only

55:32 trial. There was no there was no jury.

55:35 The reason for that being that this had been so publicized in

55:38 in South Australia. The rest of the the country, not

55:42 so much. Yeah, yeah.

55:43 So it was a judge only trial. But and yeah, he, he and he did

55:47 very well, I think in this trial, because the way he

55:49 conducted the whole aspect of Anara giving her testimony and

55:53 because there was an appeal of it eventually based on the fact

55:57 that hit the mark that Anara they said or said that Anara

55:59 shouldn't have given she, that she didn't want to.

56:01 They, they one of their appeals was that Anara didn't want to

56:04 give evidence and she was forced to.

56:05 And it was so clear by the way the judge had conducted this

56:09 that she was never forced. Time was given and counsel was

56:12 given for her to make this decision, as you know, in

56:16 absolutely mind. Yeah, so.

56:18 And knowing the consequences of giving the testimony.

56:21 It was absolutely dismissed after that appeal because it was

56:23 just no that he, the judge, did it exactly how it needed.

56:26 To be so initially she was found guilty of murder, was imprisoned

56:30 for life with a 32 year non parole period.

56:33 Yeah, at the appellate Court. One of the one of the reasons

56:39 she appealed also was because the judge had implied in

56:43 sentencing that there was premeditation involved and she

56:46 said there wasn't. And I'm like you've already you

56:48 would just commenting before about all of the premeditation.

56:51 You know, I've been hitting. The roof.

56:52 You hitting the roof. You've you knew her.

56:56 You knew her comings and goings. Lawyers even went through with

57:00 an appeal with this stuff, like because it was all so clearly

57:02 covered in the trial. Yeah, That those things were

57:05 not. Yeah, there's not she.

57:07 Also said that another point of appeal was the fact that the

57:11 sentence was excessive and because she'd had no previous

57:15 violent charges. Yeah.

57:16 And that was completely dismissed.

57:19 Yeah. Because it was well within the

57:21 rights of the judge to impose such a sentence for such a a

57:24 vicious and heinous. Crime.

57:26 Oh my God, yeah, yeah. So she did like obviously she

57:30 was telling all these lies throughout the the court case,

57:32 but ten years after the fact, she finally did come up and come

57:39 through with confessing to what she did.

57:41 So she she has admitted now to watch what happened and.

57:47 Look at that. And I'm like, you are fucking

57:48 doing this because you want an earlier parole like you're doing

57:52 this for. Yourself like totally, yeah,

57:54 yeah, but it did take her ten years to do that finally.

57:57 Which. So which she then yeah, I did

57:59 appeal then at that stage as well for a shorter sentence.

58:02 And again it was thrown out because the judge said that that

58:06 there's no way. So in 2024 it was that she

58:09 wanted to reduce sentence due to the fact that she'd now

58:11 confessed and all these things. But the the the court rejected

58:14 the application in 2025 based on the fact that it took her too

58:18 long to come forward with the actual story of what occurred.

58:22 The other part of it is that SA have a no body, no parole.

58:28 What's the word I'm looking for? Nobody.

58:30 Putting a parole, yes, you won't.

58:31 You don't get parole. Yeah, that's it.

58:32 Yeah, and because they hope still to this day haven't found

58:35 Ronnie's head or hand. She's admitted to people saying

58:38 like they will never find them. Yeah, but she won't tell anyone

58:40 where. Which so this is the thing so.

58:42 She's not eligible for parole because Ronnie's full body

58:46 hasn't been. Found so she's now confessed to

58:48 the fact of like all those steps that she took on the day yeah

58:51 other than telling people where the rest of her body is yeah

58:54 like which that's. It's it's so fucked up.

58:58 Yeah, why not tell her family where they can find all of her

59:02 like that? Just it feels so gross.

59:04 Yuck. I mean, it's, it's so yuck

59:06 anyway, but absolutely. It's just that like extra bit

59:08 that she's just got over them, isn't it?

59:10 Yeah, again, it speaks to the narcissism.

59:12 Like I know something that you don't know.

59:14 Exactly. Yeah, it's holding that over

59:16 everyone and. Being in control, all that I can

59:17 think of that is thank fuck. The only good part of that is,

59:21 Yep, she's not getting parole. No, she's not getting parole.

59:24 That's great. She shouldn't be.

59:26 No. So let's let's go with that.

59:29 Yeah. Totally.

59:31 She has not. Also she has not been the model

59:33 prisoner. No, our Angelica.

59:36 Oh no. She will not be prosecuted over

59:39 this alleged assault, but she is alleged to have assaulted Ashley

59:45 Pokinghorn. So she's the Adelaide mother

59:47 who's in jail for the manslaughter of her daughter

59:49 Chloe Valentine. Do you know this case?

59:51 Not well, but I do. I had heard of that one at

59:53 least, whereas I hadn't heard of.

59:55 My God, this just anyway this woman and her partner put their

1:00:00 three-year old child on a 50 kilogram motorcycle and made a

1:00:04 ride it around and there's videos of it.

1:00:06 It's it's yes, absolutely horrific, horrific.

1:00:09 She. She crashed into something, the

1:00:12 motorbike fell on her and she passed away.

1:00:14 Oh, it's just horrific. But apparently in prison, these

1:00:20 two don't get along very well. And yeah, Angelica apparently

1:00:25 bashed the absolute, allegedly bashed the shit out of Ashley

1:00:29 and but yeah, there's no, no charges of being laid for that.

1:00:33 But I believe she's not the model prisoner, no getting

1:00:36 herself into trouble a lot. Yeah, she's been described by

1:00:40 people in the courts as well as by prison guards, et cetera, and

1:00:44 people that have been dealt with, dealt with her, whether it

1:00:46 be like psychologist and things like that.

1:00:48 There's a few things just being described, one being

1:00:50 remorseless, the other dangerous.

1:00:53 And another that I found interesting was manipulative.

1:00:56 They're they're they're sort of fairly keywords that are being

1:00:58 used to describe her back at this point where she was going

1:01:02 through the trial. But to this day, those that are

1:01:05 are dealing with her still label her as those things.

1:01:09 So she shouldn't be getting parole if they're they're sorts

1:01:13 of, you know, labels that she has by.

1:01:16 Professional system be dangerous and given I think she has had an

1:01:21 official diagnosis of narcissism or a narcissistic personality.

1:01:24 Disorder. Or there would be, for sure.

1:01:27 But it just makes me think, though, that she'll get out.

1:01:30 She won't change because she won't think she needs to because

1:01:33 she's great the way she is. And what would potentially come

1:01:38 next? And then you think of the

1:01:39 implications of that on her children.

1:01:41 You know, I hope that they are getting some help and that they

1:01:44 are OK. Yeah, as as OK as you can be

1:01:47 after going through something like this as she's an.

1:01:50 Interesting one in that I mean we talk about, you know, I mean

1:01:53 she's not a serial killer, but she clearly hadn't like this was

1:01:56 kind of nothing to her to murder Bonnie and I look at her as a

1:02:01 her background and there's generally like childhood trauma

1:02:04 and all these things in it. But it sounds like her mum and

1:02:06 her sister were all very typical citizens, you know, like, oh,

1:02:12 law abiding, Absolutely. You know, her mum being a work,

1:02:15 she worked with children and yeah, you know, things like.

1:02:18 That caring, nurturing. Clearly had you know enough now

1:02:22 us about them to kind of go no, there's something actually wrong

1:02:24 with our daughter sister that we still need to be law abiding and

1:02:28 we need to actually go against her and report these things and

1:02:33 stand up for what's right for Vonnie.

1:02:35 And to me that says that this family, she was raised in a good

1:02:39 family from what we can gather. I mean, there's, I mean, maybe

1:02:41 there's stuff out that we just don't know, which is is very,

1:02:44 very, very possible. But from on the surface, you

1:02:47 kind of go, where's she come from?

1:02:48 And that's. The thing like with cases like

1:02:50 this, I think to myself, like, you know, Angelica would have

1:02:53 been dropping her kids at school, chatting with mums and

1:02:56 other parents at the school gate.

1:02:58 And then on the other hand, she's going out there and

1:03:02 dismembering another human being.

1:03:03 Like the contrast of that is mind blowing to me.

1:03:07 And the other image about this that I cannot get out of my head

1:03:12 is her transporting Vonnie's remains in a pusher that she had

1:03:19 used to push her own children around in I.

1:03:23 That disturbs me. The whole thing of like,

1:03:27 murdering somebody, yeah, but then chopping up.

1:03:30 Their remains, I know. That is next level.

1:03:33 It is next level and a female doing that just seems so

1:03:37 unusual. I know I can't even.

1:03:40 It's so, it's so brutal. Yeah, it's so brutal.

1:03:44 Really does floor me. Yeah, that that same I mean.

1:03:48 I think the whole thing, I mean it's.

1:03:50 Similar it's Adelaide is again, but you know, snow town esque in

1:03:53 terms of you know yeah, dismembering bodies and stuff

1:03:56 that you kind of go to this bunch of men doing that yeah is

1:03:59 is still not is incomprehensible, but I can I

1:04:04 can grasp that slightly more yeah than a female on her own

1:04:08 making these decisions to murder someone that brutally.

1:04:11 It just seems so unusual for money.

1:04:14 Like, as in to get her house and like, you know, it's a.

1:04:18 How did she think she wasn't gonna get caught with the

1:04:20 subject? Was so I.

1:04:21 Know, but also like, how did she think she I'm just thinking like

1:04:26 in terms of identifying ourselves when we're doing

1:04:30 things right, how did she think she was gonna sell Vonnie's

1:04:34 house without like. Someone going hey, this hey wait

1:04:38 a minute. Like her.

1:04:40 The way her brain thinks is really not normal.

1:04:45 Like she, she clearly has mental health.

1:04:49 Stuff. And diagnosable things because

1:04:54 there's no one who is purely sane that would go like I can

1:04:58 get away with that, no way. But it's in your own backyard.

1:05:01 Basically. This is someone in like, you

1:05:03 know yours and your mum's, you know, streets, you know your

1:05:06 neighbors, let alone like. So you are close enough by

1:05:10 proximity to be identified as doing this.

1:05:15 But don't come out. I just can't get her thinking as

1:05:18 to where she thought she knew more than others and was more

1:05:22 intelligent than everyone else around her, which I know that's

1:05:23 narcissistic traits of like, but how that's this is like taking

1:05:26 it to the absolute extreme to think that you can get away with

1:05:29 it. Yeah.

1:05:31 I know, I know. It's just, I think we could talk

1:05:33 around that for a long time. I'm interested to know what

1:05:36 people think. Yeah.

1:05:37 And especially our listeners who are in South Australia.

1:05:40 Yeah. Like I'd, I'd love to know what

1:05:42 the vibe was around the time. Like, yes.

1:05:43 Were you talking about this? Was this something that everyone

1:05:46 was like, I wonder who did it or you know.

1:05:48 I was like, it's clearly that person.

1:05:50 Yeah, I'd. Love to know, like what the

1:05:52 rhetoric was around the time. Yeah, the other.

1:05:54 Thing I wanted to highlight in this a little bit was elder

1:05:57 grooming, which I don't think this really it doesn't strictly

1:06:01 fit. It doesn't strictly fit.

1:06:03 It was, it was an attempt at it, I think a very poor attempt in

1:06:06 that like, because like elder grooming, we talk about, you

1:06:08 know, child abuse and children being groomed, but elder

1:06:12 grooming is really a thing. It's been and has been a thing

1:06:14 for a long time, but we just now label it.

1:06:16 We don't know what it is, you know, people, you know, taking

1:06:19 advantage of older, older people.

1:06:20 And you know, this is, and that's that's what I think she

1:06:24 was aiming to do was to insert herself into Vonnie's, into

1:06:29 Vonnie's life and then take advantage of her financially and

1:06:33 all those sorts of things. But when it was rejected, her,

1:06:37 her old, her alternate for that was I'll just murder the bitch

1:06:40 then, like, you know, which is just wack, as we said.

1:06:44 But I mean, I think about how this could have gone if Vonnie

1:06:48 had allowed her into her house still, you know, I still think

1:06:52 it would have ended up in murder, to be hopefully honest,

1:06:53 because that's just Angelica's Moi think.

1:06:55 But I agree. Yeah.

1:06:56 But this is this can be something that people around us

1:06:59 can be experiencing quite regularly and that we need to be

1:07:02 more aware of. Yeah, and people taking

1:07:05 advantage of vulnerable old people, Yeah, they might be

1:07:09 lonely and. And, you know, a friend, a new

1:07:13 friend might come along and then eventually they get talked into

1:07:16 signing things over to them. Yeah, all of that sort of stuff.

1:07:19 It's just something that, you know, we need to keep an eye on.

1:07:23 It's a bit. More aware of you don't wanna.

1:07:26 This is the thing I think it can look on the surface like this

1:07:28 person is, you know, caring and doing all the right things and

1:07:31 supporting someone, but and, you know, people's motivations just

1:07:34 aren't. 9 times out of 10/9, times out of 10, it probably is

1:07:37 that it probably is that someone's just noticed that

1:07:40 there's an somebody who needs chat or whatever or a neighbor

1:07:44 that's in need that might need different things.

1:07:46 But it's yeah, there are fucking shit people out there.

1:07:50 Oh yeah, yeah, Oh yeah. Who are willing to take

1:07:52 advantage. Yeah.

1:07:54 Definitely, yeah. But I mean, yeah, I'd say I

1:07:57 don't know that this is technically that.

1:07:58 I think she attempted it, but she didn't have the personality

1:08:00 trait to be able to come across as even caring.

1:08:02 She couldn't even you know, have a conversation with her for you

1:08:05 know, 5 seconds to even. She was so forceful and she's

1:08:08 like, I'm going to be your carer.

1:08:09 You're going to pay me. Yeah, Let me in.

1:08:11 I. Don't know, there's too many

1:08:12 people even, you know, in an elderly vulnerable community

1:08:15 that would kind of go, oh, OK, OK.

1:08:17 But I mean, you never, I don't know, like some people might go,

1:08:18 Oh my God, I'm supposed to like, I'll let this person know how.

1:08:21 And as you, as you said earlier, actually you were like, oh, you

1:08:24 know, maybe they could think, oh, maybe the council has sent

1:08:26 this person, maybe maybe the Red Cross have sent this person.

1:08:29 Like, yeah. And if you didn't know and you

1:08:31 are vulnerable and you don't. And the other thing is I think

1:08:34 like generationally, older people may not question things

1:08:40 the way that we do now and so. What's how they get scammed on

1:08:44 phone call things like more, I shouldn't say I mean not solely

1:08:47 other than I'm sure plenty plenty of younger people do too,

1:08:50 but they're definitely a community that get get targeted

1:08:52 for that stuff as well because they don't understand

1:08:54 necessarily how things work in that element that in those those

1:08:58 circumstances, because you know, it was different back, you know,

1:09:01 because back in the day it. Would you know people were not

1:09:04 always trying to scam everyone like they are today.

1:09:06 Seems to be more a holes and taking advantage of situations

1:09:09 than they were ever yeah before, yeah.

1:09:12 I think that kind of brings us to the end of this one.

1:09:14 It was a bit of a shorter episode than normal, but still

1:09:16 gritty. Yes, still gritty.

1:09:18 We're really keen, really keen to know what everyone thinks.

1:09:20 About this one, yeah. Now, next week, we are bringing

1:09:23 you a very, very highly requested episode.

1:09:26 This is the West Memphis Three. Yeah, yeah.

1:09:29 So we're leaving Australia? Leaving Australia, Yeah.

1:09:32 Distancing ourselves a little bit, but yeah, yeah, West

1:09:35 Memphis Three, that's a a very, very interesting.

1:09:37 Really keen to get into this. I've, I don't feel like I know

1:09:41 enough about this case. It's something I, I know, I know

1:09:43 of it, but I'm like, yeah, I'm actually really keen to really

1:09:45 sink my teeth into this and find all the bits.

1:09:48 All the nitty gritty. Yeah, agreed.

1:09:50 Awesome. Thank you again for joining us

1:09:52 on another episode of Two Crime Besties.

1:09:53 If you haven't already, please join us over on Tiktok,

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1:10:09 And love it that I've got, they've got a few people over

1:10:11 there on TikTok who are coming and, you know, liking everything

1:10:14 and really trying to push us. So thank you very much because

1:10:17 we're just a little crowd over there at the moment, but we're

1:10:19 building, building. Yeah, absolutely.

1:10:22 It's growing. It's growing week on week.

1:10:24 We. Love that, like I'm quite in the

1:10:25 abyss that I was at the beginning.

1:10:26 So you know, thank you. Thank you very much.

1:10:28 So very appreciate it. Have a great, great week

1:10:30 everyone. Absolutely stay curious.

1:10:32 Crime besties. Bye.