Episode 77 - The West Memphis Three

0:14 Welcome to Crime Besties. We're here for another week.

0:17 Meg, how are you? Oh.

0:19 You know, we've just been having a chat, haven't we?

0:21 That always makes you feel better, yeah.

0:23 Bit of a debrief, bit of a dump of the week and getting it over

0:27 and done with, yes. Definitely.

0:29 Just sometimes letting it out is all you need.

0:31 Yeah, definitely. It's helpful.

0:33 That that we need our girlfriends for that.

0:34 And I Weld you for a while night.

0:36 Oh. God, yeah.

0:37 I mean, it's been, I mean, yeah, it's been a hot minute.

0:40 It has now that the kids are back at school as well, I feel

0:42 like even more so we need to like, OK, how the teachers

0:45 going, how the kids settling in. We need to know that, you know,

0:47 all of that sort of all of that jazz.

0:49 Absolutely. Yeah, we're gonna plan these

0:52 things well in advance these days.

0:53 God, yeah. Oh my goodness.

0:55 Yeah. So have the kids settled into

0:58 school. So we're obviously recording

0:59 this a couple of weeks in advance, so you know, they'll be

1:02 well and truly into it by now. But.

1:04 We hope so, yeah. They're good, they're liking

1:07 their teachers. Oh my God.

1:08 Well, I think as much have gone from like I've got grade three,

1:11 grade 5, they're both like jumps into the the next realm of

1:16 things. And I'm like, and they're both

1:17 loving this whole world of like I'm the big kid, you know, like

1:21 I think my youngest obviously going from grade 2 to grade

1:23 three, I know how you're finding yours is going.

1:24 Like he's loving that he's being included in some more of the

1:27 sports stuff. Yeah, that's exciting thing

1:29 ahead. And you know, I mean, we've got

1:30 the school's got this Gaga pit. If you've ever heard of Gaga.

1:33 I had not actually. I spoke to the principal at our

1:36 school the other last night about it.

1:37 And I go what's with the whole they're going go Gaga or over

1:39 the Gaga pit. I've never even heard of this.

1:42 And this is a whole thing. It's a total thing.

1:45 Movement. It's a movement.

1:48 Yeah. So he's like stoked.

1:49 That is, you know, being a grade 3 kid, he gets to, you know,

1:51 gets to a whole day of their, their year level, gets access to

1:55 it. And it's just, you know, he

1:56 feels big and special. Yeah, Lucas said that he

1:59 actually got hurt before the game had even started yesterday.

2:02 Someone like, bumped him into the corner or something and he

2:04 hurt his hip. Oh, Jesus.

2:06 Knocked him over and he hurt his hip.

2:08 Oh, so God. I mean, I what?

2:09 You watch it before school and you're like, oh, my God.

2:11 Any wonder kids? I'm surprised more kids don't

2:15 get injured actually. Sure.

2:16 They. Well, yeah, I mean, you'll know

2:17 because their kids will be. Yeah, the sick day, 100%.

2:21 Oh God, yeah. I don't hear about too many

2:23 injuries with it. No, he's pretty.

2:26 Good, Bloody love it I. Love it.

2:27 They were last night playing there after school and stuff as

2:29 well. And I mean, even like the

2:31 principal said to me, she goes, I think we have to build another

2:33 one. Yeah, I know.

2:34 Yeah, yeah. The way they've had to sort it

2:36 out year level, each year level gets a day and then the grade

2:39 ones and twos have to share a day or something.

2:41 Which I think is a great, I think it's a perfect solution to

2:43 it because even the my boys are saying kiss today's the grade

2:45 twos in grade. They yeah, grade two, grade one.

2:47 Yeah. And and they were even saying

2:49 like, oh, they don't really know how to play and they don't, they

2:51 might not use it as much as we do.

2:53 And I thought, yeah, well, because it's complicated, when

2:55 they explained the rules to me, I'm like, OK.

2:57 Like I don't. Really get.

2:58 It they all know that because yes, same.

3:00 I've, I've had my kids try to explain.

3:02 I had to end up, I googled it so that I could actually figure it

3:05 out. Yeah, it is quite complicated.

3:07 And yeah, there's like freaking 50 of them in that pit at any

3:11 one time. This is like an insane because

3:13 there's no rules on how many to play with which I love that as

3:15 an open-ended game for like definitely many kids as possible

3:18 and like I love the whole it's not a team sport.

3:21 There is a winner, but they're coming up with ways to like,

3:25 support each other and do like teams.

3:27 Yeah, kind of thing to like get get one person to the end.

3:29 Yeah, it's great because I heard oh God, it was funny last Brody

3:32 was telling me, you know, that it's awesome because Lucas is

3:34 really good at at catching the ball or something.

3:37 And I'm really good at dodging the ball and Doctor is really

3:39 good at doing this and that. And so that's our team and.

3:42 Oh, I love it. They've got it all sorted.

3:44 Yeah, I love it. Absolutely, Jesus.

3:47 That's gorgeous. But yeah, the whole jump into

3:50 that next, yeah, which I'm struggling with because I want

3:53 my babies back, babe. I've got a kid in grade 6 this

3:57 year. It's already giving me all the

3:58 feels. That first, the last first day

4:00 of primary school, I was a mess. Yeah, it actually was.

4:03 I was taking the, you know, the obligatory preschool photo on

4:06 that first morning. And I was like, oh, my God,

4:08 Ollie, this is the last one we'll be taking.

4:11 Next year. You'll be in a different

4:12 uniform. Oh.

4:13 Oh man. I was up at school yesterday and

4:17 as we I was standing there, I could see behind me further over

4:21 was this bunch of kids sitting down in a local high school

4:24 uniform. And I looked and kind of went, I

4:26 don't know their faces. Why do I know their faces?

4:28 And then realized I went, Oh my God, they're last year's grade

4:31 sixes. They're.

4:32 Grown up in their high school uniform, don't they they?

4:35 Really do. Yeah.

4:36 Oh, God, I'm taken aback. This really got me.

4:38 I know. And they're not even my kids.

4:40 I don't even know that Well. I just know their faces from

4:42 like being up at assembly, you know, like.

4:45 I know exactly what you mean. Yeah, exactly what you mean.

4:48 So yeah, fast. Yeah.

4:49 I mean, this is it's a everything.

4:50 This year is gonna be a last Yeah.

4:53 For Ollie's and Oh my. God, oh, it feels weird.

4:55 It gives me goosebumps, actually.

4:57 Yeah. But he's in such a good place.

4:59 Like, he's loving the fact of, you know, being in Grade 6 and

5:02 they get lots of extra privileges.

5:04 And, yeah, you know, he's loving that.

5:06 Yeah. And Lucas just loves the fact

5:08 that from Grade 3, you get your own, like, assigned laptop.

5:11 You don't have to share laptops with anyone.

5:13 So he's got laptop #11 I've heard all about it.

5:18 It's got a lag. Yeah.

5:22 So yeah, he's he's stoked about that.

5:25 That's hilarious. I love it.

5:26 Oh. So I love it.

5:27 What I love that Mason brooch who was, you know, that now he's

5:29 in Grade 5, what he's one of the things he's super excited about

5:33 is, oh, we get to put the bins out.

5:35 Oh God, I just. I.

5:36 Just like was like the small things in life, you know, like

5:39 the. Privilege of putting the bins

5:41 out around the school I love it so good yeah I've got a few

5:48 shout outs for today yeah I've got 2 actually so the first one

5:51 is to Sophie Victory Soph is a long standing you know friend of

5:56 the podcast and she's incredibly supportive she comments she's

6:00 you know on Patreon. She always is up for a bit of

6:03 banter and and often likes and shares and does all the things.

6:07 So thanks so much for that. So but she also during the week

6:10 bought us some coffee slash wine because she said this is to keep

6:15 up our strength for the pieces of shit we've got coming up,

6:18 because you know how you've been putting on the socials about

6:20 what's these are the ones, these are the, you know, episodes

6:23 we've got scheduled. She's obviously looked at that

6:24 and gone. Oh fuck, they're in for a

6:26 they're in for a bit of a bit of a slog.

6:29 So thanks for that. So yes, and then we have a new

6:32 Patreon. I I really hope I get your name

6:35 right. I'm not going to, but your name.

6:37 So it's Yana Yuki Cosmanen. So thank you very much for

6:44 joining us. We really, really appreciate

6:46 that as well. Amazing.

6:48 Yeah, just a little update sort of.

6:52 Oh, no, I don't know if you call it an update, a little like I

6:53 guess a new bit of information or a case that we haven't looked

6:57 at ourselves yet and we made down the track now, but it's

6:59 gonna be a lot playing out. I think in it is that in

7:02 Australia again, we go back to Adelaide for this SA where some

7:06 weird shit goes down. But yeah, little Gus who went

7:09 missing in September last year, I know decent sized property

7:15 there was this big 1000. Hectares or something like it's

7:18 it's a. Farm, you know, a big property

7:20 and Gus went missing and there was a, you know, a lot of people

7:22 got out there and, you know, it helped look for him.

7:24 There was this idea that potentially he had gone missing

7:27 on the property and wandered off and got missing on the property.

7:30 But yesterday it came out that the police have identified A

7:34 suspect and this suspect lived, had lived is the wording in the

7:38 articles. Where that person currently

7:40 lives there is not clear. And the police would not answer

7:43 that question yesterday, but had lid lived on the property.

7:48 And so this person is known to Gus but is not one of his

7:51 parents. They made that very clear that

7:53 they're not looking at the parents.

7:55 They've also made clear this person is no longer being

7:58 helpful with the police. So they've lawyed up, which they

8:02 should 100% that's what you should do.

8:05 But yeah, so they're not being forthcoming with any more

8:08 information. But interesting update on that

8:11 and where that goes to from here, because the police have

8:13 very clearly stated that they do not believe that there is any

8:17 evidence to say that he wandered off.

8:19 So the search for him, they they there was a question put to the

8:22 police yesterday of whether or not they believe Gus was on the

8:26 property. And I say that as in physically

8:30 on the property when they arrived to look for him that

8:33 day. And the police were said the

8:35 response to that was possibly. Yeah.

8:37 They're not clear on what's going on.

8:39 They're not, sort of. Well, they're not saying.

8:40 Party about anything? Did you watch that press

8:42 conference yesterday? I just read it actually, but

8:44 yeah, I. Didn't watch it.

8:45 I actually watched it because it came up.

8:46 I actually had a often when there's cases that I'm not, you

8:50 know, that I want to keep an eye on, I just set up a Google alert

8:52 for it and it came in yesterday. The press conference was at like

8:55 130 yesterday afternoon. And so it pinged up and I was

8:57 like, oh, I will watch that. Yeah.

9:02 I think there's a lot that they're not saying.

9:04 And I think a lot will come out. Yeah, as as this progresses.

9:07 But it's definitely one that it might be a Patreon type episode

9:11 possibly. Yeah.

9:12 Because yeah, I'm gonna. Be a lot, lengthy enough,

9:14 whatever for. A yeah, for a full episode,

9:17 especially once we find out exactly what's happened.

9:19 But it's definitely a space. Where we'll be watching.

9:22 I'll just be keeping an eye on it.

9:23 It's it's. Such a beautiful little boy.

9:26 Beautiful. Oh, the curly blonde.

9:28 Ringlets. Oh my God, he's.

9:30 So yeah, so the poor kid, it's just tragic.

9:33 I mean, him going missing and potentially like, I mean,

9:36 there's there's minds and things sharp mind shaft and things on

9:39 the property that even the thought of all that was

9:41 horrendous. But to think that there's been

9:44 foul play with this. It just yeah, it's good.

9:47 No awful, awful, yeah. But yeah, so shitty kind of

9:51 thing to happen. But an update I thought I would

9:53 just bring. Yeah.

9:54 Before we get started in this one today.

9:56 Well, this one's also probably something that we need to give a

9:59 trigger warning about. Why do we keep doing these ones

10:01 seriously? But today we're going to be

10:04 talking about, you know, about the murders of young children

10:10 with certain sexual elements or potential sexual elements to

10:14 those crimes. And it's just something that if

10:18 this is not something you can listen to, again, we totally

10:21 understand. Move on, maybe come back next

10:23 week because it's just, yeah, it's horrific.

10:28 It's absolutely horrific these crimes that were perpetrated on

10:30 these on these three young boys. And just quickly as well, I

10:34 forgot one shout out. Sorry, produce Pete.

10:37 Oh, sorry, I did promise we would on that.

10:38 Yeah, we. Did we promised so got home from

10:41 school drop off this morning and he'd set up our studio.

10:44 So thanks, Pete. Thank you.

10:45 It means we can banter before we get on the banter.

10:47 That's it. The pre banter banter.

10:51 All right, so today we are discussing the case of the West

10:54 Memphis 3. Tell me what you knew about this

10:57 case before we started researching this week.

11:01 Before we research, before I go into the research this week, I

11:04 had watched already the Paradise Lost.

11:07 I think I'd watched all three of them OK previously, but a long

11:10 time ago, OK? Like could a good like five

11:14 years ago sort of situation. Yeah.

11:17 And so actually when we were doing it, I was like, I think

11:19 that's the case. I think that's that one, like,

11:21 you know, that I was like almost like not connecting it entirely

11:24 when I was like Westminster three.

11:25 I'm thinking that's that. Yeah.

11:26 Like, yeah, so it had been out of my brain for a while, but I

11:30 had. But when we got into, I was

11:31 like, Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

11:32 It's kind of. Coming back.

11:33 I know all this now, yeah. So yeah, I'd watch that.

11:35 Those couple. I think I'd only watch two of

11:36 those movies. I don't think I'd watch the

11:38 third one, yeah, but so I knew a fair bit about it once when we

11:42 started researching that I was able to go back to.

11:45 But it's definitely can't be gone.

11:46 Yeah, I've done a fair bit deeper this time, but yeah,

11:49 yeah. Yeah, that's sort of similar to

11:51 me. Like I knew I knew the case.

11:54 I roughly knew what had happened.

11:56 Yeah. I remember reading something not

11:59 that long ago about the, well, the alleged perpetrators.

12:03 Yeah. And them sort of, I will get to

12:07 the to the how that all came about fairly recently.

12:10 But yeah, I remember sort of reading that and being like, Oh

12:12 yeah, that's that one. And yeah, but my God, getting

12:15 into this has really, I actually, now that I think about

12:18 it, I don't think I'd ever listen to a podcast about this.

12:21 No, it's like it was the same, no.

12:23 Yeah, that I'd actually listen to a podcast about.

12:26 Yeah. And when I went looking just to

12:28 start my research, like they're all long form.

12:31 Yes. And that's, I did the exact same

12:33 thing. And then kind of, I don't have

12:34 time for long form, no. Like, so I'd pick some certain

12:36 bits to snippet around about it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

12:39 But there's no. So much out there.

12:41 So what basically what we're saying is there's so much out

12:43 there about this case if you want to know anything more,

12:45 because it's kind of like there's kind of two aspects to

12:48 it. Absolutely.

12:49 And you can find podcasts and you can find like even articles

12:53 and stuff about the actual crime and then what came after.

12:57 And so if you want to find out anything more about it, it is

13:00 out there. Yeah, you can absolutely find

13:02 stuff, Yeah. So basically in May of 1993, a

13:09 small town, the small town of West Memphis in Arkansas, was

13:13 rocked by the brutal murders of these three eight-year old boys.

13:17 Now, these were innocent, like 8 year old, 8 years old.

13:19 We've got 8 year old kids, 8 year old boys, Meg.

13:22 Like, the thought of that is like, they're so innocent.

13:25 And they're so, yeah, you know, they're just so pure and

13:29 gorgeous. And exactly.

13:31 Oh yeah. It it, this was hard.

13:33 Realization of this was really, really tough.

13:36 There's. A number of interviews I

13:37 listened to of the parents, Oh my God, describing their kids

13:40 and I just lost it because like, yeah, one of them in particular

13:44 really resonated with was Michael Moore.

13:47 Yeah. Oh, I know.

13:49 Just the way that the parents described him, I'm like, Oh my

13:51 God, that's my 8 year old. Like kind of, you know, that

13:53 that kid who wants to make everyone laugh and, you know,

13:55 leader of the pack kind of situation like that.

13:58 He it's definitely she was just, oh, yeah, cheeky but not

14:01 naughty, all these things. That's the way that he was

14:03 described. They were describing him that

14:05 I'm like, Oh my God, that that's my kid.

14:07 Like that, that could be my kid. That I just, oh, God, kill me.

14:11 Oh, I know. Yeah, I know.

14:13 Their bodies were found in a muddy Creek in a patch of woods

14:19 that's known as the Red Robin Hood.

14:22 Hills. Red Robin?

14:23 I was going with Red Robin. Hood Hills, yeah.

14:28 The. The scene was so incredibly

14:31 gruesome. Now, if you watch the

14:34 documentary, yeah. Paradise Lost is what it's

14:36 called. Yeah, Paradise Lost.

14:38 So there's actually a Paradise Lost show as well.

14:43 It's not about this. Oh, OK.

14:45 So if you're Googling it. OK.

14:47 Just know that there is ATV show also that was called Paradise

14:50 Lost. It's about.

14:50 It's not even. About it's different, yeah.

14:53 But this is a documentary that was made by HBO, yes.

14:56 And they actually came across this very early on in the piece,

15:00 to the point where they've got police footage of the boy's

15:06 deceased remains in situ in the Robin Hood Hills, and it is

15:12 literally the opening scene. It is and it's it's it's

15:14 actually the I remember the first time watching it like this

15:16 is like, so not for this. I remember watching it when I

15:19 first like, I think I stumbled across it and kind of went, oh,

15:23 I'm into that, you know, like kind of and watched it and I

15:26 remember watching that scene and thinking, oh, OK, this is like

15:29 they've re set up the scene and there's mannequins. 100% I

15:33 thought the same thing. Yeah.

15:34 And it wasn't until it kind of like as it kind of progressed

15:36 that that as you're watching it that I kind of went, wait, no,

15:39 I'm looking at what? What am I looking at?

15:41 I'm actually looking at the real scene.

15:43 So honestly, it's quite freaky. It's very.

15:46 Confronting. Yes, I thought the same thing

15:48 because. Because it kind of opens with

15:50 that. Yeah, I'm like, oh, OK, this is

15:51 the. Reconstructing the scene, like

15:53 just to be able to like, you know, and it is generally, you

15:55 can see it's genuine police officers.

15:57 So I'm like, Yep, Yep, they just reconstruct.

15:58 This is a reconstruction of the scene.

16:00 And they're gonna be like, right, looking at like, OK, if

16:02 the bodies were here and here, like, and just doing police

16:05 work. No, this was no footage of the

16:08 actual scene I'm seeing, so you can see what you can see.

16:12 Is see everything like? Literally everything.

16:14 I'm talking the bodies of these boys were found naked.

16:18 There was mutilation to parts of their bodies.

16:22 We'll we'll get to that. I think maybe when we talk a bit

16:24 more about the autopsies. Yes.

16:28 You literally see it all. Yeah.

16:31 It then the documentary then progresses to the court case

16:35 about this and they show photos then of different things as well

16:39 which. And you will see very

16:41 confronting images, and there is no blurring out of images or,

16:45 you know, like the lawyers talking about a photo and that

16:48 you're looking at the back of that lawyer face.

16:49 You know, that lawyer who's staying there.

16:51 You're seeing from the jury's perspective exactly what they're

16:54 seeing. Yeah, it's full on what do.

16:56 You think about that. Like, yeah, it was a really

16:57 interesting choice. I mean, we're talking 1993.

17:00 This is pre like, I mean, America trials are televised

17:04 like I mean here it would never happen.

17:06 Like I just don't let those sorts of things happen in courts

17:08 here. But in America they do.

17:10 And this was kind of the start of that.

17:12 It was really, they now reflect back under the judge, which

17:16 again have a talk, but he now regrets it occurring.

17:20 And he did. He stated that if either of the,

17:23 if the, whether the prosecution or the defence had put forward

17:25 something to him requesting it to not occur, he would have 100%

17:30 gone. Yep.

17:30 No, we're not doing it then. But neither of them did.

17:33 Do you not think it's really friggin bizarre though?

17:36 That, to me as well, is the fact that the parents would have had

17:41 to have consented to these images being put on the HBO

17:44 documentary, wouldn't they? I don't think they.

17:47 No, I don't think they. Did but they also party actively

17:49 participated in the documentary. So they've at some point they're

17:52 like, yeah, yeah, this is yeah, fine.

17:55 Like I thought if that happened to my child, I don't know that I

17:57 would want those images out there in a documentary.

18:00 I know, but they're very, very personal.

18:02 I mean, I guess at that point I don't know what, where the legal

18:05 line is with this, where it becomes once it's in a court.

18:08 I think they're children. So they.

18:10 Should be suppressed. Yeah, yeah.

18:12 But like, I think legally it becomes public information in

18:16 that, yeah, the public need to be aware of these court cases

18:19 and aware of why there's outcomes of the outcomes that

18:21 they are and all those things. But because they're minors, it

18:25 really it's a. Real.

18:26 That's what makes me think that needed to be consent from the

18:29 parents to release those images publicly.

18:31 Question marks over I know parents who took place exactly

18:35 because you noticed that one set of parents didn't take.

18:37 Part yes as much. Well, officially no.

18:41 Yeah, OK, let's get into it. It's a whole.

18:44 Lot of gamut there. There's there's so, so much so

18:47 let's talk a little bit about the victims to start with yeah.

18:51 Do you think and then we'll get into what happened after that.

18:53 I think so The three victims were Stevie Branch, Michael

18:56 Moore and Christopher Byers. They were 8 year old best

19:00 friends. They lived in the same West

19:01 Memphis neighborhood. 2 of them live next door to one another

19:06 and the other one was just down the street.

19:07 And they often, I guess as 8 year old boys did in 1993, This

19:11 would absolutely not happen these days.

19:14 But they would ride their bikes to each other's houses and ride

19:17 about the ride about the neighborhood and just go about

19:21 their day. And on this particular, oh,

19:23 actually, no, let's talk a little bit about them.

19:25 So Stevie Branch was blonde hair, you know, gorgeous kid,

19:29 very high energy. I think like now would probably

19:32 get like an ADHD diagnosis or something like that.

19:35 But he was like, yeah, very like, loved life, had a zest for

19:40 life. He was into everything.

19:42 Yeah. And just, you know, really,

19:44 really lovely. Yeah, I think his parents didn't

19:46 say they were called up school, you know, on a number of.

19:48 Occasions, yeah, but again, it was for nothing.

19:52 Like he wasn't a bad kid. No, he was.

19:55 Just like you know. Put into stuff.

19:57 On the occasion, yeah, Michael Moore, who was, he was more

20:01 described as like the peacekeeper of the group.

20:03 Yeah, he was. Definitely.

20:06 He was sort of the leader of the group they called him in, sort

20:08 of like kind of more mature, sort of short, yeah.

20:12 Just a little bit more, yeah. Mature.

20:15 And yeah, he just had that leadership type of quality.

20:18 Yeah. And then Christopher Byers, who

20:20 was spirited, apparently. I heard that.

20:22 I heard him being described as spirited a couple of times.

20:24 Yeah, yes, I understand that. I do understand that having a

20:29 spiritual child, he loved skateboarding.

20:31 He loved like just being outside.

20:34 That was his thing. That was his jam.

20:36 So on this particular day, so this all happened on the 5th of

20:41 May in 1993. So it was a Wednesday afternoon.

20:45 It was a warm, sunny afternoon. The boys were seen together

20:50 between 5:30 and 6:30 PM. So basically at around 5:30,

20:55 Christopher was working in his yard.

20:56 He was helping out with, I think one of his chores was like,

20:59 gathering leaves or like helping with yard work anyway, Yeah.

21:03 And the boy is just like the other two came over to to grab

21:06 him and go for a bike ride. Yeah.

21:08 At 6:00 PM, Michael's mom saw the three boys riding their

21:11 bikes in the neighborhood together and then at 6:30 PMA

21:16 witness spotted the four boys so. 3.

21:20 No, there were four. So there were three victims and

21:24 a fourth kid who nobody knows who this person was, right?

21:27 Who this fourth person was? Right, you're right.

21:29 I don't remember reading that now.

21:30 Yeah, yeah. So they were spotted heading

21:32 towards the Robin Hood. We went to say Red Robin again,

21:35 the Robin Hood Hills. Like where now this was a place

21:38 where the boys would go. Yeah.

21:39 It was like, I guess a safer place for them to go in terms of

21:45 not no cars being around. Yeah, it was.

21:48 There was bike tracks and stuff along.

21:49 It was a place where a that. Would create them like kind of

21:52 thing it was like sort of place space when you think about that

21:54 in the 90s I mean I remember doing myself you know you'd like

21:56 make the track and there was plenty of places there where

21:59 they could ride their bikes on like there was like these really

22:02 big round drain pipe things through spots so they can ride

22:07 their bikes on top of those which was tricky and that they

22:10 fall off it and whatever build ramps and stuff with using bits

22:13 down there. So it was kind of secluded, but

22:17 at the same time it was a spot. Yeah, I just say where they

22:19 would go to do this and do a bit of off road bike riding, I guess

22:22 a bit of BMX thing. And yeah, I mean, God, just we'd

22:25 love it fooling. Around Yeah, you know that would

22:27 have been their ideal and they. And this was not something it

22:30 wasn't the first time they'd ever done this They would do it

22:32 all the time. Yeah, they'd do it with other

22:34 siblings, sometimes with other friends.

22:36 But these three boys were like core friendship kind of people.

22:40 Yes. So by 8:00 PM now the boys, we

22:43 think about this in the 2026 context and the kids being out

22:47 at 637 o'clock at night and you think fuck, no way.

22:51 But back then it was basically like when the street lights come

22:53 on. Yep, get back home and so.

22:56 Expected time for dinner. But exactly.

22:58 So by the time 8:00 PM rolls around, you know we're talking.

23:01 It's getting dark. Or it is dark, you know it's

23:04 coming into the summer months so the days are getting longer.

23:07 But none of them had come home for dinner.

23:09 Weird because, I mean, they're 8 year old growing boys and they

23:12 want more than anything else, dinner at 7 or whatever time.

23:15 They were meant to be home. So by 8:00 things were starting

23:20 to get a bit uncomfortable for everybody.

23:23 The parents were like, oh, that's really weird.

23:25 So and so hasn't come home. This one hasn't come home.

23:28 And I think they sort of started to get in contact with each

23:30 other, like are they at your place?

23:31 Are they at your place? Yeah, No, no, no.

23:34 So I guess this is the point where alarm started to be

23:38 raised. They did start to go looking for

23:40 the boys themselves and you know, by the time neighbors and

23:44 stuff got involved, but they did contact the police and yeah, and

23:48 report them missing that evening.

23:50 So that the police, I believe, acted pretty swiftly.

23:55 There is question marks. They should have acted sooner

23:58 even again. OK.

23:59 But yeah, they did start looking that night.

24:02 But I think more like 9930 they started their active looking or

24:07 it was out on the, you know, they all knew that they were

24:09 missing, but I believe they didn't actually start searching

24:12 searching. So they were kind of like, you

24:14 know, cop cars out at while you're out looking, keep an eye

24:16 out for these boys, three boys on bikes kind of stuff.

24:18 But by 9930 they were actively like, right?

24:21 Where do we start looking and searching?

24:23 OK. Yeah, that, that makes a lot of

24:25 sense because I was like, yeah, I wonder to me, from what I was

24:30 reading, I was like, OK, have they actually acted as quickly

24:34 as we would want them to? Yeah, there's question marks

24:38 over if they did start it when they first.

24:41 Would they have? They may have found and they may

24:43 have. In the.

24:44 Act in the act potentially. Yeah, yeah.

24:47 Anyway, so it wasn't actually until the following day.

24:51 So this is now the 6th of May in 1993 that a police officer and

24:56 again, in this documentary you can see all this.

24:58 So if you want more detail, go and watch it.

25:00 I think this. Well, he they do like a

25:01 reenactment of him finding it. But yeah, he very clearly goes

25:05 into that position and. Yeah, So he found a bicycle,

25:10 like semi submerged in this, like, muddy bog.

25:12 Yeah. And, and obviously he's like,

25:17 oh, we're looking for kids on bikes.

25:18 This is let's have a look around here.

25:21 Not far from there, he found the bodies of the three boys.

25:28 So they were in water, not too deep water I believe, but.

25:36 I think maybe waist deep at the at the deepest point.

25:39 Yeah, but they, they were, they sound so friggin horrible.

25:43 But there were parts of them that he could see.

25:44 So it's not like they were fully.

25:46 All of them were fully submerged.

25:49 The victims were found restrained.

25:53 Each of them was hog tied. With their own shoelaces.

25:56 Yeah, that's an important point, Yeah.

25:59 Something we need to just keep in mind for a little bit later.

26:02 Yeah. But basically their arms, their

26:04 wrists were tied to their ankles behind their body.

26:07 Yeah. So their left wrist to their

26:10 left ankle. And their shoelaces were, were

26:14 they white? I believe their shoelaces were

26:17 white Stevie and Michael, so their autopsies were performed

26:25 and the cause of death for them was listed as multiple injuries

26:30 and then drowning. They had blunt force trauma to

26:35 their heads, they had skull fractures and there were

26:39 indications. I'm assuming there was water in

26:41 their lungs because there was indication that they'd actually

26:46 drowned. That was what they ended up

26:49 dying from. It wasn't the injuries to their

26:51 head, it was actually. Actually drowning, I guess the

26:55 impact the, the maybe the inference there is that the

26:58 injuries meant that the drowning happened quicker, quicker like

27:01 kind of stuff. Not that the injuries, yeah,

27:02 they died of the drowning, but the injuries definitely impacted

27:05 that. Yeah, well, they were running.

27:06 They were probably unconscious. Who knows?

27:08 Yes, yeah. Then Christopher's cause of

27:11 death was listed as multiple injuries, and he suffered the

27:15 most severe trauma, like physical trauma to his body.

27:20 Yeah, including mutilation. So.

27:23 But again, we'll get to that. Again, we'll get to that, yeah,

27:26 a little bit, but. It's worth noting too that

27:29 obviously with this, so the saying that the police have

27:31 found these these bodies and then obviously they're starting

27:34 an investigation now. This is probably where the only

27:37 point in this that I'll say empathetically to the police and

27:40 the police work in that they didn't get the autopsy results.

27:45 They had none of that information of what we've just

27:47 explained there until a month in to the investigation.

27:51 So they were investigating this without the knowledge of

27:56 different causes of death to the to the children and other

28:05 aspects of their death that could have been helpful in

28:09 knowing who you're looking for. Yeah, I think that makes sense.

28:12 So what you're alluding to is the fact that different knots

28:15 were used to tie the knots in the shoelaces.

28:19 Yes. And then also like the the

28:23 manner of death for for the three children was different.

28:28 Yeah. So that's just.

28:30 And that there were like markings on the body that could

28:33 have indicated who this was. Various other aspects of this

28:37 which weren't done well either, because that that was there was

28:39 lots of things missed, I think in the autopsies.

28:41 Definitely personal opinion. And it's definitely been spoken

28:44 of like, you know, but yeah. But there was aspects of what

28:48 came out of the autopsy that then wasn't known by the police

28:51 as they investigated this which? OK, that that's absolutely fine

28:55 because they had to go about investigating this, you know

28:58 they can't. Stop and just kind of go, oh,

28:59 wait for the autopsy, then we'll start investigating how we all

29:02 know that's not the way to go. The issue is that once they had

29:05 the information from the autopsies, yes, and it didn't

29:07 really match the line of inquiry that they were going down, they

29:10 still persisted with it and. Made it match.

29:12 Made it match. Well, yeah, maybe, maybe they

29:15 tried to make a match. So basically the police, so

29:21 you're right, we're at a point now where the police, we don't

29:23 have an autopsy yet, not for any of the boys, but we have got a

29:28 town that is in absolute panic because three boys have been

29:32 brutally murdered. Their bodies have been well, you

29:37 know, left for God only knows what to be found.

29:42 And it's an absolutely horrific, gruesome, horrible scene.

29:48 So the police are under a lot of pressure to find who did this.

29:52 Yeah, OK. So I guess they started looking

29:58 at people in the community who might have had something to do

30:03 with this. Yeah, they, yeah, the police

30:04 sort of start going, right. Let's start making a list of

30:07 possible suspects here, People of interest, but people of

30:10 interest. And, you know, the way they went

30:12 about making that list wasn't necessarily like how us as true

30:16 crime aficionados know that you start from, say, you know, known

30:20 people to these children and move out from there.

30:23 This was like I find the other way.

30:25 It's so the other way. I find it so interesting because

30:29 some of the parents even weren't interviewed for months.

30:33 No months. Even the mum who saw the three

30:40 boys going up, she wasn't interviewed for five or six

30:44 weeks or something. So we're not doing what we know

30:48 to be core police work here. Yeah, we are making assumptions.

30:51 And I don't believe that that whole thought process was, is

30:56 something that's in this newer age of police work.

31:00 To me that was that's fairly basic police work that in the

31:02 90s would have been the way they would have approached this.

31:05 Normally I would have assumed. I can't imagine that's changed.

31:09 Like human nature hasn't changed, no.

31:11 As in, the most likely person to perpetrate and act upon is

31:16 somebody close to you, and then, as you said, you work the way

31:19 out. But yeah, the police decided

31:21 that there were certain elements of the crime scene that made

31:24 them think that maybe there was some kind of satanic ritual,

31:30 Yeah, ritual that's been involved.

31:32 Which we're looking at an era here in the 90s where, you know,

31:36 that was a it was like, it was a whole like fear thing.

31:39 And particularly in this area, I mean, Arkansas is very like

31:41 Christian based population. So anything, you know, devil

31:46 worshipping, you know, that's really, really like very nervous

31:50 of that sort of thing. And so I think the combination

31:53 of the timing and we were talking 93, I mean the grunge

31:57 scene was coming in and Metallica, Metallica, all that

32:00 really popular. So yeah, it's definitely

32:05 something that I guess sparked interest in terms of, well,

32:07 yeah, this could be what they call the Satanic Panic era.

32:11 Kind of people were fearful of that stuff happening.

32:14 And the other element I think I don't think we mentioned about

32:16 the scene was that the boys clothes were found like pegged

32:21 almost to the the Bank of the into the water under sticks and

32:26 things. So there was like stick

32:28 arrangement like, you know, that that was sort of they kind of

32:31 gripped onto a few of those things as if they were somewhere

32:35 related to like a ritual. Yeah, when I think that person

32:38 was just trying to hold the clothes down under the water so

32:40 that they rinsed of the blood that, yeah, potentially was on

32:42 them. Yeah, that's what I.

32:43 Think. How I read it, but I think that

32:45 the police jumped to conclusions of like, oh, look, see, there

32:48 may be placed in a way that is a ritual that's occurred, you

32:52 know, I saw. I saw one report that was made

32:57 back in the day. So it was a, it was a written

33:00 news report. Yeah.

33:01 And it said that it was like stakes in like through Jesus

33:06 hands. They've staked the clothes out

33:09 on the bank and I'm. Not clutching here guys, right?

33:12 That's a stretch. Yeah.

33:14 Yeah, Sorry. How did how did you draw A to B

33:17 there? Like, where's that coming from?

33:19 Yeah, yeah. There was this absolute hysteria

33:22 that then because the police weren't quiet about this either.

33:25 They were like telling the media, yeah, that Oh my God,

33:29 there's always satanic stuff and.

33:31 It. Really, really gained its own

33:34 traction. People were terrified.

33:36 Yeah, the, the, the general population of West Memphis were

33:40 really scared and they thought they had some demon worshippers

33:43 out there who were going around and sacrificing.

33:46 Well, at this point, young boys, who was next?

33:48 You know, they were really, really worried.

33:50 The injuries were framed by the police as being ritualistic.

33:55 And like they, they'd mutilated the bodies in a certain way, a

34:01 certain ritualistic type of way, which again, we'll get to, we'll

34:07 get to that a little bit further down the line, But no.

34:12 And then I feel like instead of the police going right, who's

34:16 done this, they're going, OK, which evil sanction of this?

34:21 Who do we who do we have in our books already that we kind of

34:23 don't like that that are sort of this this kind of orientation

34:27 that we might like go to have a chat with?

34:29 Yeah, so who do they come up? With they, they immediately show

34:33 to a guy who's on the top of that list, who has been in a bit

34:36 of trouble with the cops in the past and is just, you know, on

34:39 their radar for a number of things by the name of Damien

34:42 Echols. And Damien is, yeah, he's a bit

34:45 different. And he, he's actually what he

34:47 calls. He was into Wicca.

34:49 Yeah, not Satan and all that sort of stuff.

34:52 He was Wiccan. So he but he wore black and he

34:56 liked heavy metal music, but he was a teenager.

35:00 He was 18 years old. 18 years of age, yeah, very much of that

35:04 era. He was not uncommon.

35:07 Like in that sense there was, I mean.

35:09 Look, he describes himself as he's like, I know I'm weird.

35:12 Yeah, I know I don't like people.

35:15 I. Stick with you mate.

35:17 Yeah, I stick with, like, my few friends.

35:20 And he's like, I actually sometimes behave in a way that

35:24 pushes people away. Like he acknowledges all of this

35:27 in himself. He basically says, like, I dress

35:30 in a certain way and I act in a certain way because I don't want

35:32 people to come near me. And yeah, and he, but he also,

35:36 and he has said this, he he in an interview later on in much

35:39 later in his life, but he said that he was growing up in the

35:42 poorest of poor environments. They had zero money.

35:45 He was living in a, in a trailer that, you know, kind of style

35:48 which it was filthy because there was just no money and

35:53 there was no food at times there was nothing.

35:55 He literally had nothing. So all that late on, he was a

36:00 depressed teenager, like kind of stuff going through those sorts

36:03 of things. He had been put into a facility

36:06 at one stage for that and for support and things.

36:10 And yes, he had been arrested and he'd done teenager, I guess,

36:14 you know, kind of crime. He wasn't.

36:17 Not not harming other. People not harming other people,

36:19 No, that's what I'm trying to say.

36:20 Infer that there was nothing of that extreme but particular

36:24 people in this community were scared of him yeah and something

36:28 that he. Because he was different.

36:30 He was different, scared because he was different.

36:31 And he sort of leaned, he leaned into it.

36:33 The fact that people didn't felt him, felt scared by him.

36:36 He liked that because it kept them away from him.

36:39 So he would like, like, you know, talk in a certain way to

36:42 them, as, you know, teenagers do.

36:43 I guess it's like, you know, yeah, yeah, I'm an asshole.

36:45 Like, Yep, stay away. Got a got a problem with it.

36:48 Yeah. Like.

36:50 So this did not sit well with the cops, this arrogant kind.

36:53 It would come off as arrogant to them.

36:55 But really it's a, it comes from a very, you know, it's like.

36:59 It was self defensive self. Defensive.

37:01 Sort of thing, yeah. He was being defensive and he

37:04 just wanted to be left the fuck alone.

37:06 Yes, yeah. So yeah, he was their prime

37:09 suspect now. Well, So what came about was

37:12 they went and spoke to him. Now this interview, this initial

37:15 interview with him is not recorded, no.

37:17 So that's. Not a problem in and of itself.

37:21 In itself is a problem. So anyway, they talked to him

37:23 the first time. There's nothing that I've, I

37:25 don't think too much have come out of it, but they're certainly

37:27 not crossing him off their list. The second time they go back to

37:30 talk to him. Just so happens they arrive at

37:32 the house, one, there's no parents around, but two, I mean,

37:36 yes, he's 18 so that's not as big a deal.

37:39 But he's who is at home with him is his best mate, Jason Baldwin.

37:44 Now, Jason was 17 at the time. So but just because Jason was

37:48 there with him, they decide to interview both of them.

37:51 But again, Jason, 17, he's underage, no parents involved in

37:56 this. They interviewed them.

37:59 Now, this interview was recorded.

38:01 And in this interview, the cops are asking him questions like,

38:06 who do you think? What sort of what sort of person

38:08 do you think would do this crime?

38:10 And he starts, he is in, and Damian answers them and says

38:14 things like, I don't know, like somebody's pretty evil, you

38:17 know, and pretty, pretty awful. But the more he gets into it, he

38:21 sort of describes what a person like that could be like, you

38:24 know? But they sort of make out as if

38:26 like he's saying he's talking about himself, but he's not.

38:28 He's just answering their question of like the kind of

38:30 person who could do this. Yeah.

38:33 It's a really interesting. There's also Interview.

38:35 They do also ask a lot of leading questions, yes.

38:38 So they're interviewing techniques are not unbiased by

38:42 any stretch of the imagination. And the answers that he gives,

38:47 yeah, you could interpret them as as guilt, you absolutely

38:50 could. But it's also equal in equal

38:55 measure. Could not be that, you know, So,

38:58 but they haven't looked at this critically.

38:59 They haven't listened to the nuance in what he was saying

39:03 either. No.

39:04 So like, you know, what would you do if you did that like.

39:07 What on what looks like no can I answer?

39:09 Questions like that like and he's not, he's got a lawyer,

39:11 hasn't even got a parent with him to say don't answer that

39:13 mate like did. They even caution him before

39:16 questioning. I don't believe so, No, no.

39:19 So how's that admissible in court?

39:20 Yeah. Yeah.

39:21 Yes. So Jason Baldwin was, yeah, as

39:24 you said, 17. He was quiet, an artistic boy,

39:28 also wore black. Loved Metallica.

39:30 Yeah. They were joined at the hip, the

39:32 two of them. They were very good friends.

39:34 Yeah. Very, very good friends.

39:36 Yeah. Yeah.

39:37 So the next part of this though I I get confused as to how this

39:41 really came about to be really there's.

39:42 No, you know why you get confused?

39:45 Because I we don't really know it's.

39:47 So weird. It's so weird.

39:49 There's this woman who has children, and she has a young

39:55 kid who does babysitting for her.

39:57 Jessie, Miss Kelly Junior, I should say.

40:02 Now, some for some reason, she starts kind of investigating

40:08 this herself. Yeah.

40:10 I don't really fully understand what went on here at all.

40:12 I have to really admit that I've heard this being told multiple

40:16 times of what went on and none of it makes sense to me as to

40:19 how this came about. But basically the end of this is

40:22 where she's having conversations with Jesse literally to try and

40:27 find out if he has any involvement in this.

40:29 Now who are Jesse's friends? Damian Echols and Jason Baldwin,

40:34 They're not as close to mates at all.

40:36 Like they're kind of on the he's on the peripheral Jesse big

40:39 time. But they know each other and

40:41 they do hang out occasionally. Yeah, and they're kind of into

40:43 the same sort of things. Like Jesse likes the same.

40:45 Sorry. Yeah, Jesse likes the same

40:46 music. Yeah.

40:48 You know, they've got a big they've.

40:49 Got common, but they're not, Yeah.

40:50 They're not as tight as Jason and Damian.

40:53 Yeah. So.

40:55 So this Vicky, I think her name was, Yeah, yeah.

40:58 Vicky, she tells the cops of all this.

41:00 And so the cops bring Jesse in for a chat.

41:03 Now this really gets me. This is awful because it's

41:07 awful. And not that they knew this, I

41:09 guess at the time, I'll give them that.

41:11 But Jesse has a low IQ. And when I say low IQ, he's not,

41:16 he's not completely, you know, unintelligent.

41:19 He has an IQ of about 72. I think it was 72.

41:22 Yeah. So look, you can completely

41:25 function in life with an IQ of 72.

41:27 That does not put you in the status of like.

41:28 You need support for everything in life, but it does make you

41:32 more susceptible to coercion. Being LED?

41:37 Yeah, manipulated like. Critically, and it's absolutely

41:44 something that he would have needed support for any, you

41:48 know, basic function. Absolutely.

41:50 He was able to, as you said, babysit kids.

41:52 He was able to, you know. Go to school, function, all

41:55 those things. Read and all of that sort of

41:57 stuff that that was. Not saying that that's not, you

42:00 know, but. But other things he struggled

42:02 with, and it was he needed time to process things more and think

42:07 about things. And it wasn't like if you ask

42:08 him a question, he might need to need to take a beat to be able

42:11 to answer that question. Yeah.

42:12 And, and, but and the way you ask questions needs to be more

42:16 care therefore, because absolutely you can certainly

42:18 lead him certain away, which is what they've been able to do

42:21 with Damien to a point. And he was an incredibly

42:23 intelligent person or is an incredibly intelligent person.

42:27 And that's, I think, part of what made him different to

42:29 everyone. He struggled with because he

42:31 read books and he, you know, did all those things and other kids

42:33 weren't doing that. And he was.

42:35 Very well informed about lots of different.

42:37 Things ohh very much, which I think that made the cops nervous

42:40 of him for that great they. They didn't.

42:43 Couldn't keep up with no. But they managed to get his

42:44 interview to kind of manipulate him little in this.

42:46 Poor Jesse, who, Yeah, is so much more easily manipulated by

42:51 their questioning and LED to say certain things.

42:54 Yeah. So again, though in this

42:56 interview, I don't think it was a minimum two hours they

42:58 interviewed him without recording it.

43:00 Yeah, before they actually do record.

43:02 So we don't even know what was said prior to this recording,

43:05 which is so. There are no notes either.

43:07 They didn't even take notes. It's not, it's not like it was

43:10 just not recorded. No, no, not like no audio, no

43:14 visual, no written notes, no nothing.

43:16 So we don't know what they've told Jesse and what's come out

43:19 of that hours worth of I think it was multiple hours.

43:24 I'm even thinking it could have been four or five hours, but I

43:26 want to say 2 to be generous. I have written it.

43:27 Down keep going an. Object yeah, I can't remember

43:29 exactly, but yeah, I'll say 2 to go with that.

43:32 But good couple hours worth of interviewing with no recording.

43:35 They go into the recording, then of it, and Jesse confesses, and

43:40 I'm going to put that in air quotes.

43:42 He confesses to being a part of this, his story, leading

43:47 questions. Even in the recording, it's very

43:49 much you can hear the the leading questions and he says

43:53 that the himself, Damian Echols and Jason Baldwin perpetrated

43:59 this in that he he in his confession of it, he puts Damian

44:03 and Jason in it of actually killing the boys and that his

44:07 role in this was to sort of keep the kids there.

44:10 Because one thing that I don't disagree with with the police in

44:12 first looking at this scene to manage wrangle 38 year old boys,

44:16 they did kind of think and make an assumption that this could be

44:18 more than one person involved here.

44:20 I don't. I don't think that that's a.

44:22 Stretch. It's not.

44:23 It's not a stretch at all. Agreed.

44:24 So they they've sort of, he said that, yeah, two of them were

44:27 perpetrating the actual crime. And Jesse's role in it was

44:29 basically to keep the boys there.

44:31 And one, I think was Michael. He says Michael ran off at one

44:34 stage and he chased him down and dragged him back and brought him

44:36 back. And that's.

44:37 And but then Jason and Damien actually did the crime.

44:42 Yeah. So been in all of his

44:46 confession. There are so many inaccuracies.

44:50 Oh, and there's so much. Of the him saying something.

44:54 And the cops get him to re answer the question and say a

44:57 prop say what they want him to say.

44:59 Yeah. But even with them doing that,

45:01 one key thing that he does that says he says that is that this

45:05 happened at noon. And he says it so many times.

45:08 Yeah. They ask him again and again and

45:11 again about the time Yeah, and he says every time he.

45:15 Either says morning. He ever says yes in the morning,

45:17 morning, morning. And I think it was a little bit

45:19 later and he's like, Oh yeah, noon, noon.

45:21 Now the boys. Were at school there.

45:23 Is no question about that they were at school until 3 P 530 by

45:27 multiple witnesses at. 630 by multiple witnesses yeah.

45:30 So there's no question this this has has.

45:32 Occurred from 6:30 onwards, yes. So there's no way this happened

45:36 at noon, No. So that's a whole big gap in

45:40 this of like that to me, that that's a red flag that this is a

45:43 coerced confession. Yep.

45:46 But no, the cops still push on with this and eventually get him

45:48 to say that it was later in the day and it was evening because

45:52 they sort of push him around. Are you sure it wasn't dark, do

45:54 you think? You know, Like.

45:56 And they get, they get him to say, oh, yeah, you know, yeah,

45:58 it was. It was dark.

46:00 Yeah, It was dark. It was later.

46:01 Yeah. What the fuck?

46:02 OK. Yeah.

46:03 Yeah. So.

46:05 That's even. That's just one of those.

46:07 I think it's also like part of this as well.

46:09 And the the the reason he kind of.

46:12 Got to this point. I think this interview went for

46:15 12 hours. He was probably like, get me the

46:19 fuck out of here. I'll just say whatever you want

46:21 me to say. I will get so I can get out of

46:23 here. I can't.

46:24 I can't be here anymore. Yeah, absolutely.

46:27 I mean, this is the thing they've.

46:28 Worn him down to the point of like apparently there was

46:32 conversations said around the fact of like, look, you just

46:34 tell us, you know, tell us that you did it and everything and

46:36 then you can go you can go home. This has got total making a.

46:39 Murderer vibes about it. Yes, yes, exactly like it.

46:42 Really does. Yes, it really, really does.

46:44 And this is such poor police work.

46:47 It's it's not even. Funny, I get.

46:50 It from the perspective of the cops were.

46:51 Very under pressure to find the person who?

46:54 Not a person, the person or persons who did this.

46:58 Yeah. And they think they've got their

47:00 guy, but they they really just don't.

47:03 And they have been so blinded by this whole satanic ritual.

47:09 This must be them. We've got them.

47:10 Let's be done with this. Yeah.

47:12 Which is just bullshit. It's absolutely fucking

47:16 bullshit. It's.

47:17 It's horrible, but then, you know, the police are the ones

47:19 who've put out there that there's this, this satanic panic

47:23 they they are perpetrating that they are, they are going with

47:27 that. They are feeding that beast and

47:28 then so they can then look like the heroes when they arrest

47:33 these three boys. Mm Hmm.

47:35 Who? Well, one, I was 18.

47:37 I guess the other two were under 18, but they.

47:39 Sorry, Yeah, Jason was only 16 at the time.

47:41 Actually, it was. Jesse, he was 1717.

47:42 Yeah, OK, Sorry. Yeah, So even worse, even more

47:44 sorry. It's I mean, regardless.

47:46 It's yeah, we're under. So whilst they're all doing this

47:49 investigation of these. These three, the the three

47:51 supposed perpetrators, Jesse, who's been interviewed a couple

47:56 of times. It's getting it's there is not

47:58 nothing of this is kept under wraps.

48:00 Like, you know, everyone knows they're interviewing,

48:03 interviewing Damien in in this crew like basically of like the

48:06 locals. And so Damien to his own

48:09 detriment really. And look, he truly believed

48:11 that, well, if you didn't do it, you can't prove I did it.

48:13 So therefore I'm fine. Yeah.

48:15 And he was like going around going yeah, yeah, yeah, I killed

48:17 him. Like he did say that to a few

48:20 people. There was a few.

48:21 There was another instance where Damien had a probation.

48:25 Officer at this time. Yeah, this probation officer

48:28 told Damien that in the autopsy report, there was Now there's no

48:33 written evidence of this this being true, but this is

48:35 something the cops supposedly were keeping under wraps so that

48:37 they, you know, if they knew the the murderer would only the

48:40 murderer would know this. But how did the parole officer

48:42 know it? But anyway, go the the exact.

48:43 Notice is that it's very well known that it got spread.

48:45 Around everyone, everyone knew it but that there was urine

48:48 found in the boy's stomachs. So inferring that they were

48:51 forced to drink urine, right. So, yeah, so and according to

48:57 the cops, only they knew that and and the murderer, so only

48:59 the murderer would know it. But Damian was told by his

49:02 parole officer this information. And so, yeah, he he said to

49:06 people, yeah, yeah, made him drink urine like, you know, And

49:10 then the cops are saying, so basically gone, say, well, only

49:13 the murderer knows that. Half the bloody town knew that

49:16 they didn't keep anything under wraps.

49:17 There was so much talk about all these things that it just made

49:20 for such a shitstorm. But yeah, Damien being a bit

49:24 arrogant, being a teenager, stupidly, I totally understand.

49:28 Because in the. In the documentary.

49:30 When he's interviewed, he does say, yeah, he's like I.

49:36 Thought. That they they wouldn't be.

49:39 Able to hold this. Against us because there would

49:42 be no evidence tying us to it. Yeah.

49:43 So I could basically see what I wanted because I didn't do it.

49:48 No. And even to the point of

49:50 evidence. So how would they?

49:51 Ever be able to? Convict me or arrest?

49:53 I mean, they did arrest them for no.

49:55 Jason says that during the trial.

49:57 Yeah, yeah. Yep.

49:58 He's he's interviewed. In that by the the documentary

50:00 and. He says like I, I just have

50:02 faith in the fact that they can't prove I did this because I

50:05 didn't like, so I, I. And we've talked.

50:09 About this before. As well.

50:10 Like if we were ever arrested. You think, Oh my God, you think

50:12 you're going to be OK? You'd never know.

50:14 No, you never know. No, especially.

50:17 When there's so many things at play with.

50:19 This so much at play so much. At play so clearly.

50:22 I mean, this being young boys who have been.

50:24 Brutally murdered it. I mean, yeah, it is the talk of

50:26 the town. It is a lot of press involved in

50:29 this and so people wanted someone done for this and so

50:34 they should. Yeah, absolutely.

50:36 That is, this needs to be. Solved, but not by convenience.

50:40 This needs to be solved. And you need to get the right

50:43 person, then how do you get a fair trial in that environment?

50:46 Well, this is the problem. They didn't.

50:48 Not they. So they actually tried Jesse,

50:51 Miss Kelly separately? Yes, because he was.

50:55 Well, according to his confession, he was sort of

50:58 separate to the actual murdering.

51:00 The fact that he'd provided a full well again, air quotes, a

51:04 full confession, meant that he was able to be tried separately

51:08 and then also his lawyers were then also trying to get a plea.

51:14 Buggered for him. For cooperating with the police

51:16 and then also testifying against Damian and Jason, which he then

51:20 refused to do. He didn't testify.

51:21 Against that. Not in the end, no.

51:23 So I mean again. How impressionable, this poor

51:26 young boy. But they end up going to trial.

51:30 Yeah. Because so obviously we say like

51:31 he confessed in. That police interview and I have

51:33 read in a few places where it says that he's confessed

51:35 multiple times. That's not true.

51:37 No, that's the only time he ever confessed, and he very much

51:42 vehemently after the fact when, well, that's not what happened.

51:45 But so he recounted that very, very.

51:48 Have you listened to the interview with his lawyer?

51:50 Yeah. So his lawyer, Jesse's lawyer,

51:53 was almost brand new to the job as a defence attorney when he

51:57 took on This is Your First Gig, Joyce, He was.

52:00 He admits he was so green. He was he, he also had the

52:06 police brief of evidence given to him and he's read through it

52:08 and he's like, Oh well, my, my client's guilty, he said.

52:12 Fully admits that that was his first impression yeah.

52:15 He then goes to meet Jesse and in one of the first things he's

52:19 like oh he was. He said he was really nervous

52:21 about meeting him because he'd never met a killer before and so

52:25 he's going to meet this 17 year old boy who's confessed to them

52:30 the brutal or being involved in the brutal murder of three

52:33 eight-year old boys yeah. So he's really expecting a

52:36 monster. He gets there and they're.

52:38 Sort of talking. It through and Jesse is telling

52:42 him, OK, I actually didn't do this.

52:44 I actually didn't have anything to do with this.

52:47 And he the lawyer gives Jesse basically all of the

52:52 documentation that the police have given him.

52:56 Jesse starts reading through it and he says to his lawyer,

52:59 what's Saturn and his lawyer? 'S like what do you mean?

53:04 And he's like, oh, have a look. What does this mean?

53:06 It's something to do with Saturn.

53:07 And I don't, I don't understand what Saturn means.

53:11 And the lawyer's like Saturn. I don't remember reading

53:13 anything about Saturn. So he goes and has a look at

53:16 what Jesse's reading, and it's Satan now.

53:20 And he and the lawyer? Said at that.

53:22 That was the moment he was like, Oh my God, he's innocent.

53:25 Oh my God, he has no idea. He doesn't cops into what this

53:28 means. No, he signed this confession

53:32 and he doesn't actually know. What he's signed, he doesn't.

53:34 Know what it means? He doesn't even know what Satan

53:37 is or Satanism is. And not that, not that the.

53:41 Boys were Satanists. Anyway, they were Wiccans.

53:43 Yeah, well, at least Damian was a Wicca.

53:45 Yeah, was Wiccan Wicca, but that's it.

53:50 Yeah. And I'm like, fuck.

53:53 So now he's like, oh. Jesus, I really.

53:55 Need to get in. Yeah, I need to like work this

53:57 out. Now it's a whole different.

53:58 A whole different ball game. It's not like I'm defending

54:00 someone who I know. Did it?

54:01 Probably did it, Yeah, No. No, I'm actually defending

54:05 someone who genuinely needs to get off this.

54:06 Yeah, which, yeah, that would be full on.

54:09 And it did not go well, No well. And the.

54:11 Thing is in all of this. And in both the trials, so

54:14 obviously we're saying like Jason and Damon would try

54:16 together in a in a separate trial, I think the lawyers did a

54:19 very good job. Agreed.

54:21 I thought, I thought Damian. And Jason's lawyers were really

54:24 good. They were eloquent.

54:26 Yeah. They challenged everything.

54:28 I I think that I mean in hindsight there was even more.

54:31 They could have done and but that's because of like so many

54:33 people have looked into this case, yes, you know, over time,

54:36 but even taking away all of that stuff that they didn't do, they

54:40 challenged there was enough reasonable.

54:42 Doubt in. What they presented already, so

54:44 I had to actually look up whether the standard.

54:47 Was reasonable doubt in Arkansas and it is because I'm like how

54:51 could how could the jury have convicted them because how

54:55 because. It is.

54:57 The the. Case to.

54:58 Me, when you look at the video evidence as in the videos of the

55:03 court case, you're like, how did they not have doubt?

55:08 OK, yes, there were certain. Things I'd be like, OK.

55:11 You could maybe maybe at a stretch be like, yeah, maybe

55:14 that that's true. Yeah.

55:16 But there were. Other things like the fact.

55:18 That in Jesse's confession. Confession again in air quotes,

55:23 he says that they tied the boys with brown rope.

55:26 No, it was their own. Shoelaces.

55:29 And he said that they were white, he says.

55:31 That again and again. In his confession tape.

55:34 The lawyers. Challenged that like even to me

55:36 that is enough doubt yes exactly so that was Jesse's trial

55:39 because. Even in Jason and Damien's

55:42 trial, they couldn't even use that confession.

55:44 That's true in his trial. So that's not so they don't in

55:47 that trial, supposedly. Now this is where we kind of go

55:51 fair trials. He wasn't willing to testify.

55:53 Yeah, because he. Wasn't willing to testify.

55:55 They could not. Talk in the the case about the

55:58 confession even being a thing, right.

56:01 So the jury in that case had to ignore that information in

56:06 making their decision. So if they had done that and

56:11 looked at the case that was being presented to them as they

56:14 should have, I mean, the fact of the matter is that they were

56:16 able to OfferUp alternative possibilities of others being

56:19 involved. That's something we need to get

56:21 to in a minute. Yeah.

56:22 And then there was the physical evidence of trying to place.

56:24 These boys at that scene, there just wasn't any.

56:27 The the only thing they were what they did was to connect

56:30 them to the scene was red fibers.

56:34 Now what they found in I think it was it was Jason's wardrobe.

56:38 They found a red dressing robe right at the scene.

56:44 On one of the boys T. Shirts, There were these very,

56:47 very small amount of red fibers. They took the, those red fibres

56:52 from his T-shirt and the red fibres from this dressing gown,

56:55 which they, they, they even say this in court.

56:57 We're not saying he wore that dressing gown to the scene.

56:59 Like it's he's saying that they're saying that potentially

57:01 transferred from the dressing gown to whatever Jason was

57:04 wearing that day, which they don't even know what that was,

57:07 you know, and and then it's ended up at the scene that those

57:10 two red fibres were somewhat similar.

57:15 Yeah. Yeah, there was.

57:16 Other there was. Another fibre evidence that was

57:18 given as well. These were black fibres that

57:21 were found. I don't know, I think they

57:23 weren't found on the boys bodies.

57:25 I think it was like near the bodies or some, I can't remember

57:28 exactly where these fibres were found.

57:30 Yeah. But what they found was that two

57:32 of them, two of the boys had T-shirts that were made out of

57:35 these fibres because they were black, because they were black.

57:38 But also. They they were.

57:39 Able to figure out what the T-shirt T-shirts they were from

57:44 yeah these T-shirts were sold at something like 45,000 different

57:49 stores in the US and it was like the cheap basic black T-shirt

57:55 that we would get from Kmart. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

57:57 That everyone, the three dollar second.

57:58 T-shirt that every second. Kid wears because yeah, it's

58:01 cheap and who gives A and that's that's the area you lived in to

58:04 like, you know that's. What the kids were wearing, they

58:06 were poor. It was a poor area.

58:08 And this was one of those T-shirt stand T-shirt that so

58:12 many people wore. So this, I'm sorry, this is not

58:15 evidence. Not evidence.

58:16 Whatever whatsoever. So the other oh so sorry, just

58:19 really quickly two of the boy. The two of the deceased boys own

58:24 T-shirts in that as well. So anyway, sorry, go on.

58:27 Yeah, so. So the other bit of evidence

58:29 that. They sort of presented was then

58:31 this whole satanic shit right now, the guy that they had up on

58:35 their stand as their expert from the prosecution.

58:37 Yeah, Doctor, whatever story was sorry.

58:40 What is it? How does what's her name?

58:44 Oh my God. Doctor.

58:44 Sheila, Doctor Sheila, Doctor. Like you gotta tell the.

58:47 Question. Sheila, Doctor, sorry if you

58:50 guys didn't get that. Go and listen to Amy Poehler's

58:52 Amy Poehler. Oh my God I'm having mental

58:53 black. Doctor Sheila, it's.

58:56 Fucking hilarious. Oh, tell me more.

58:57 It's called me more. That's right.

58:59 Tell. Me more a song.

59:00 Oh. My God, we sing it to each

59:01 other. Love that.

59:04 Oh my God, you really need to listen.

59:05 To it but yeah, I don't she calls herself doctor because

59:08 she's not really a doctor so it's like doctor question mark

59:11 Sheila let's go back and listen to.

59:14 Those episodes again, no, it's so good.

59:16 Sorry, sorry, sorry, Doctor. Doctor.

59:18 Dale Griffiths, Yes, now he got. Up on the.

59:22 Stand and talked about the fact that these killings were satanic

59:26 rituals because he knew everything about them and the

59:30 fact that what makes you someone who obviously like follows Satan

59:36 is that you have black T-shirts on black nail Polish.

59:41 This is literally what he said black nail Polish.

59:43 Listen to heavy metal music. Like, no, he just described like

59:49 every teenage kid, every teenager goes through.

59:52 Yeah, who didn't go? Through a goth phase.

59:53 Like honestly everyone, like for real, Yeah.

59:57 You know it's. The most ridiculous, reductive

1:00:02 thing and. He says it with such conviction.

1:00:05 Yes, he's and to this day. Well, as in like as you go to

1:00:09 like that third, the third movie of Paradise Lost.

1:00:13 I've haven't finished it, to be honest.

1:00:15 But yeah, I was watching that and going, oh.

1:00:16 My God, you're still. Spouting this bullshit, Yeah.

1:00:20 So yeah. He was they, they.

1:00:22 Even said that on the stand so in that the the defence lawyers

1:00:26 stood up and said So what classes did you take for your

1:00:31 getting your. Doctorate.

1:00:33 None. So did you fill out this piece

1:00:35 of this pamphlet? It's like a mail order bloody

1:00:38 PhD that he's got. It's not worth literally the

1:00:41 paper it's written on. It is not he's not a doctor of

1:00:45 it's like when you say like, where did you get?

1:00:46 Your license from the Wheaties box?

1:00:49 Yeah, Yeah, he literally did. Literally.

1:00:51 It was a pamphlet that was in his letterbox and you filled it

1:00:53 in. And gone.

1:00:53 Yeah, I'll, I'll get a doctorate.

1:00:56 What the fuck? And the fact that they let him

1:00:58 on the stand. Without vetting that no that the

1:01:01 judge, the judge's comments. About it being like, 'cause they

1:01:03 were like, we need to throw his testimony out because he's not

1:01:07 an expert of any kind. And the judge says, well, anyone

1:01:10 can be an expert. If that's what they say they

1:01:12 are, then they are basic. It's just what he basically

1:01:14 says, oh, God, yeah, Yup. Help.

1:01:17 Yup. Yeah.

1:01:19 So I mean the. Evidence they presented to make

1:01:21 these young boys, these teenagers, the the perpetrators.

1:01:26 There was really no substance to their evidence.

1:01:30 You know, the the simple fact that the confession couldn't be

1:01:33 involved meant that there was nothing else that was linking

1:01:36 them to this case. No, they they knew of these

1:01:38 kids. They didn't know them.

1:01:40 They, you know what I mean? Like a small town, a small town

1:01:42 kind of everyone knew everyone. So that doesn't prove anything.

1:01:47 Yeah. So I should.

1:01:49 I'm sorry. I just had this flash of like,

1:01:50 Damien in the court should say just as a comment, he became a

1:01:55 father. Yeah, during all, like all of

1:01:57 this. So he was also on a bit of the

1:01:59 radar of the cops. At hidden that he was.

1:02:00 Somehow linked to Satan because he was having sex with his

1:02:04 girlfriend who yes she was a little bit younger than him, but

1:02:07 not what was she, 16 and he. Was 18 or 15 and. 18 No, I think

1:02:12 she was 1616, so she was. At least 16 when she had the.

1:02:15 Had the batch moment 15. When she felt pregnant then I

1:02:17 think. Yeah.

1:02:17 But yeah, so, yeah. So he actually in the during the

1:02:20 court case, his baby is brought in and actually meets him for

1:02:23 the first time. I know it's pretty awful.

1:02:26 Yeah. So, but in this, I say in him

1:02:29 being looked at during this, his girlfriend was pregnant and he

1:02:32 did tell people at the time, oh, well, yeah, you know, I'm just

1:02:34 having a baby so I can I can sacrifice it to Satan.

1:02:39 Like they're the sort of comments he would throw out

1:02:41 there, like his sense of humour in a way, I mean.

1:02:44 It's not funny. It's not especially in the

1:02:46 context of the death of these three boys.

1:02:48 Like he's. Really missing the.

1:02:50 Mark absolutely. But you can.

1:02:52 I can see where people then are like.

1:02:53 Oh my God, he's clearly awful, like coming in, but put it in

1:02:56 the context of this is an 18 year old.

1:02:57 Yeah, and he thinks he's angst of an 18.

1:02:59 Year old like you know, it's just that.

1:03:01 Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, who actually?

1:03:03 Says that shit if they really. Did do that?

1:03:06 If you mean it exactly, you wouldn't.

1:03:07 You wouldn't. No, you wouldn't say it.

1:03:09 He's trying, you know. It's weird, but it's really,

1:03:12 really weird. Yes.

1:03:14 Oh my God, sorry. These court, these trials are

1:03:17 just in so way, in many ways, I feel like a sham really quickly

1:03:21 about some of the evidence. That was presented in the trial

1:03:24 mostly the the knots, yes, yes, yes.

1:03:26 So I think that's an important like.

1:03:28 I think this was. Almost like a key element of.

1:03:30 Definitely case that just. Fully falls flat.

1:03:33 Like falls flat. So basically what they said was

1:03:36 the way the boys were tied was some kind of ritualistic

1:03:40 behaviour, Yeah. Or ritualistic symbol.

1:03:44 Upon further analysis of those knots, what we know is that

1:03:49 there were two different types of knots used or multiple, more

1:03:53 than two, I think. Yeah, there was square or like I

1:03:56 don't know a lot about that. You know, there was square

1:03:58 knots, half hitches and a few other different like utilitarian

1:04:04 type of knots that were used. Now, these are used by not

1:04:10 Satanists, but like Boy Scouts, of which the three boys were.

1:04:14 Yeah, they were. They were parents.

1:04:18 Of those boys. Who were also involved in

1:04:21 Scouts, Yeah. And would know those knots they

1:04:24 were also using, like, military construction, like people

1:04:27 hitching things. I mean, I guess you're looking

1:04:29 at small town Arkansas. You know, people are in

1:04:33 professions that are hands on and probably more blue collar.

1:04:38 Yeah. People knew how to tie knots.

1:04:40 Yes. It's not, it's not a Satan

1:04:43 Satanistic ritual. It's probably one of the last

1:04:46 things that those three boys knew how.

1:04:47 To do yeah, they were not your type to be Boy Scouts no, they.

1:04:51 You know what I mean? They.

1:04:52 Actually say that like oh. No, no, no, no.

1:04:54 We are not. We are not Boy Scouts.

1:04:57 So. That was kind of.

1:05:00 Picked apart during the trial because the.

1:05:05 Well, the alleged. Perpetrators, they didn't know

1:05:07 how to tie these knots. Who did, you know, And the fact

1:05:11 that there were a lot, you know, multiple different types of

1:05:14 knots used as well, like this wasn't a ritual thing.

1:05:18 It was. It looked like at least two

1:05:20 different people had just tied these knots however they could

1:05:23 to bind these boys to stop them from moving, right.

1:05:27 Yeah. Yeah, the other bit of evidence

1:05:29 that I. Found really interesting well it

1:05:31 wasn't evidence actually, it was again proving that there could

1:05:33 be other alternatives to this right was the fact that on the

1:05:37 night on the on the night of May 5th, there was a phone call to

1:05:40 police from a local restaurant by the name of Bojangles.

1:05:43 Oh yes, and they rang to call to say that there was a man that

1:05:48 had entered their restaurant who was who had blood on his arm and

1:05:52 was and covered in mud and was behaving oddly.

1:05:56 So you think that? OK, when they got that?

1:05:58 Phone call. They actually knew the boys were

1:06:00 missing but hadn't found them, but hadn't found them at all

1:06:03 yet. So they knew they were missing.

1:06:04 And there was, as I say, there was that call out to the police

1:06:07 of like, keep an eye out for three boys on, on bikes.

1:06:10 They've gone missing, right? So this police officer had a

1:06:14 name somewhere actually. So it doesn't matter really.

1:06:17 But yeah, this female police officer is sent out rather

1:06:20 quickly. I believe that she did get there

1:06:22 sort of 5-10 minutes after the call.

1:06:24 It was pretty quick that she'd respond.

1:06:26 So the manager of that store is inside the store and expects to

1:06:30 see this police woman or person come through the door.

1:06:34 No, the car keeps driving and drives through the drive through

1:06:38 to speak to the police officer to the to the sorry to the

1:06:42 manager. Yep.

1:06:43 And so the police officer through the drive through the

1:06:45 police officer speaks to them and don't really say much like

1:06:49 just OK cool. Like, thanks for letting us

1:06:51 know. Really, that was all.

1:06:53 Doesn't go in at. All.

1:06:54 Does not go into the store now. She was put on the stand at the

1:06:57 trial herself and they they asked her like, what was the go

1:07:01 there? And she was like, well, we're

1:07:02 looking for two boys, so wasn't really like, my priority.

1:07:05 Looking for a man with blood on him and mud, OK.

1:07:09 All right, but and. The other reason that was was

1:07:11 because it was out of the the the proximity of where they were

1:07:14 looking for the boys. Now when I say it was out of the

1:07:17 proximity, it was a mile from where they were found, which is

1:07:21 not is less than a mile from where they lived, right, So

1:07:25 we're saying. 2 miles where this?

1:07:27 Restaurant was was not far away, but from the line that her, you

1:07:31 know, superior had drawn of where to look, it fell just out

1:07:34 of that. So that wasn't of any interest

1:07:37 to us. It blows my fucking mind.

1:07:39 This blows. My mind now, yes, they still, I

1:07:43 think at this point they still thought the boys would come

1:07:45 home. Like they were just out being

1:07:47 being boys and not being boys and hadn't come home and were

1:07:49 just, you know, bit of misadventure.

1:07:51 Totally But but. If you've got.

1:07:55 These two things which are anomalies, yeah, right.

1:07:58 I mean, I think I'd want more of an attention.

1:07:59 To a person covered in blood and mud in a restaurant.

1:08:02 And also, if for nothing else. Than to remove that person from

1:08:06 that restaurant like they're obviously disturbing the other

1:08:11 patrons. Kind of like why?

1:08:13 Are you covered in blood? Yeah, do you need, do you need

1:08:15 medical attention? That's the thing.

1:08:16 There's the duty of care to that person.

1:08:18 Too. Yeah, so.

1:08:21 I'm. Never entered that restaurant

1:08:22 does not know who that. Person is now the manager did.

1:08:24 Explain to them that. This person did use the

1:08:26 bathroom, right? And cleaned up, but there was

1:08:30 stuff leftover, yeah. Two that.

1:08:32 Managers credit, yes, that bathroom was then not cleaned.

1:08:37 Well, maybe, maybe not purposefully, I don't know.

1:08:40 I don't think it was. Used so yeah so the next morning

1:08:44 he. Again, rang the police and said

1:08:47 no one came in like this is what happened.

1:08:49 And the police then like, Oh well thanks for calling us again

1:08:51 'cause we're still looking for those boys too.

1:08:53 Like I guess so they, the police go down then to these are, and

1:08:56 these are police who are linked to this investigation of the

1:08:59 boys that are missing too. They are aware of both things.

1:09:01 This is not like, you know, two different departments not

1:09:03 talking to each other. These were police officers

1:09:05 involved in the missing children.

1:09:07 They go down to that restaurant, they go into the bathroom and

1:09:10 they collect samples of blood that were found, scrapings off

1:09:15 of the tiles in the bathroom that has left behind and stuff.

1:09:18 Yeah, so great police. Work that's.

1:09:21 What we need happening. Good job.

1:09:23 Should have been happening earlier, but whatever, let's get

1:09:25 to it now. So then they get on the stand at

1:09:27 the at the trial and the defence lawyer says to this police

1:09:31 officer, So what date did you submit the those those blood

1:09:34 samples to be looked at to the lab?

1:09:37 And he said they weren't they've been lost.

1:09:41 I lost them. Sorry.

1:09:44 What the fuck? What the fuck?

1:09:47 I mean just to even just. Rule that out.

1:09:50 That they're they're alone is my reasonable doubt.

1:09:53 I could not agree with you more. The fact that there was someone

1:09:56 in the vicinity. Blood and mud on them, which

1:09:59 we're talking where they were, where those boys were found, you

1:10:01 know, the bikes were found. The bike alone was.

1:10:04 Found in a muddy It's the water that was, you know.

1:10:08 Yeah, so I'm sorry, there's nearby.

1:10:11 This man was oddly behaving oddly with blood and mud on him.

1:10:15 There's a reasonable doubt there that this could have been

1:10:17 perpetrated. Perpetrated by that person.

1:10:20 Yeah, maybe it. Wasn't.

1:10:22 Maybe it wasn't, but maybe. It was.

1:10:25 I don't. Believe in coincidence?

1:10:26 No. I don't either, but at the end

1:10:28 of the day I actually. Don't know.

1:10:29 I don't think it. Was him.

1:10:30 But anyway, yeah, you know, I I get it, but.

1:10:33 It warranted further investigation.

1:10:34 Yeah, yeah, what the fuck? I mean, the fact that that

1:10:38 female police officer went through the drive through, I

1:10:40 can't even fucking bothered getting out of her car to at

1:10:44 least go in and be like, put eyes on him and be like, all

1:10:47 right, that's this person. Now I've got a mental image of

1:10:50 who he is, Yes. If if nothing else.

1:10:54 No. OK, such sloppy.

1:10:56 Place. So, so sloppy.

1:10:58 So the other element. Of the the trial that I.

1:11:00 Just wanted to touch on too. Then was and this didn't come

1:11:02 out until much later, much, much, much later that this was

1:11:05 an issue. But because as we say, I I watch

1:11:08 that trial and read transcripts, et cetera, and I just do not

1:11:12 understand how you couldn't have had there was a reasonable

1:11:14 doubt. I think those defence lawyers

1:11:15 did a good job and then the principal doubt how on earth did

1:11:18 this this they came back quite quickly to the the jury.

1:11:21 Well, the the other thing I find really.

1:11:23 Interesting about this case is the judge actually let the jury

1:11:28 ask questions that that the. Lawyers hadn't asked.

1:11:35 I think. Oh.

1:11:37 Directly to. Well.

1:11:39 They asked through the judge. But yes, but so I'm like, I

1:11:42 thought they had to basically just take what the lawyers had

1:11:46 presented and not ask any further.

1:11:49 As in like they could ask clarifying questions.

1:11:51 Clarifying questions. Yeah, I.

1:11:53 Believe they asked for new. Information, right?

1:11:57 Yeah, I don't know what the. What the boundary is on that?

1:12:00 And each state probably has their own Probably.

1:12:03 I just found that really. Interesting.

1:12:04 That is interesting, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

1:12:08 Well, so. Yeah.

1:12:09 March later, later this comes out.

1:12:10 But during that trial it has been proven this occurred, that

1:12:15 there was a particular lawyer on the case.

1:12:19 Was he on the case? Yeah, he was.

1:12:22 And the one. Of the guys who was on the jury.

1:12:25 His name was Kent. Arnold knew that lawyer.

1:12:28 He'd hired that. Lawyer for his.

1:12:29 Brother-in-law for that particular issue they had had.

1:12:32 And so he was actually during this trial contacting that

1:12:36 lawyer. Now this lawyer to his credit

1:12:38 kept saying to him, I can't answer these questions for you.

1:12:41 I can't, I can't speak to you. So he didn't answer his

1:12:44 questions, but the information that was coming to him from this

1:12:47 guy was basically like when we kept asking when are they going

1:12:50 to bring the confession up? When are they going to bring the

1:12:52 confession up, which they were not allowed to bring to their

1:12:57 decision? They can't bring that.

1:13:00 Into their consideration of the court, the case.

1:13:03 Now, this guy apparently said things to this guy like I've got

1:13:06 to somehow, you know, I'm going to have to work out how I'm

1:13:08 going to get this jury to convict these guys.

1:13:10 They have to go like they have to be put in jail, like

1:13:13 absolutely horrific stuff. This guy then ends up being the

1:13:15 foreman. So the foreman of the jury was

1:13:19 someone who had biased, who was very biased, who had already

1:13:22 made his mind up regardless of what went on in that courtroom.

1:13:25 Really, he wanted the stuff that was not.

1:13:28 Involved in that? Courtroom to be part of it,

1:13:30 which you know, it wasn't part of it because if it had been

1:13:32 part of it would've been picked apart and proven to be how false

1:13:35 it was as a confession definitely.

1:13:37 So I'm sorry that that's just just.

1:13:40 Horrific. Horrific, horrific that that

1:13:42 went on. That that guy.

1:13:44 Got to that point where he was the foreman of that jury and

1:13:46 infiltrated and made sure that then everyone else voted the way

1:13:48 he wanted it voted for. So these boys were convicted and

1:13:52 oh, it's horrible. Damien Echols was.

1:13:54 Given a death sentence? Yep.

1:13:56 Jason Baldwin. Was given life in.

1:13:58 Prison and Jesse, Miss Kelly was given life plus 40 years.

1:14:02 Yeah. Which just, oh man, Awful.

1:14:07 All of it with reasonable doubt. Every.

1:14:09 Every. One of them?

1:14:10 Totally. Absolutely.

1:14:13 I guess they've they've gone off to prison.

1:14:15 Yeah, and they've served. Oh.

1:14:17 How long was it? It was 18 years. 18, was it?

1:14:19 It was. 18 years plus some. I believe it was.

1:14:22 Yeah, yeah. The.

1:14:27 The three of them, obviously they.

1:14:28 They appeal these. Cases and at every appeal it

1:14:31 gets knocked back, which the again, I just cannot understand

1:14:35 because there was definitely grounds for appeals on all of

1:14:37 this. It was it it's mind boggling it

1:14:40 got to this. But anyway, I know and I have to

1:14:44 say this. So as I mentioned, Damien had a

1:14:48 child during this that I, I mean, a lot of people have like

1:14:54 questioned him in that he's gotten a relationship with that

1:14:56 child. I mean, this he's now a grown

1:14:57 adult now. And even by the time he got out

1:15:00 of jail, he was his son was like the age that he was when he

1:15:03 supposedly perpetrated this. Now he went into jail with being

1:15:08 knocked back after appeal after appeal that he's going to be

1:15:11 injected with a lethal substance and he will lose his life.

1:15:15 So I don't, I don't. I actually think he's

1:15:17 potentially done the right thing here.

1:15:19 He cut off a relationship with the child.

1:15:21 He that. That is images and footage of

1:15:23 him in the courtroom holding his baby.

1:15:26 It's the only time he had any interaction with that baby.

1:15:30 I don't know of the personal conversations he's had.

1:15:32 I don't know of any of that stuff.

1:15:33 But I don't blame him thinking that this poor child is going to

1:15:37 grow up going my dad's in prison and now he's dead in that being

1:15:42 his legacy or you know, he. Removed himself from.

1:15:46 That child's life, he says. In the interviews when the trial

1:15:51 was going on, he says that, you know, for him, having a child

1:15:55 was such a, an amazing thing. He didn't realize how how, how

1:16:00 wonderful it would feel that he was able to bring life and into

1:16:04 the world and how much of a nice feeling that was, despite the

1:16:08 fact that it wasn't ideal and it wasn't the way he thought it

1:16:11 would happen. You know, he's obviously had to

1:16:13 meet his baby in a courtroom, but.

1:16:17 You know. The.

1:16:18 The way he speaks about it, you do feel a softness from him.

1:16:22 Yeah. Towards his own child.

1:16:24 So I I agree with you that I think he did.

1:16:27 He distanced himself. It would have been painful for

1:16:30 him. Yeah.

1:16:31 Knowing that, knowing it was trying to do the right thing for

1:16:33 his child. Unfortunately it didn't work,

1:16:36 No. Because that he's turned out not

1:16:38 so. Great.

1:16:38 Yeah, he's currently in prison. Or if he isn't, I think he is.

1:16:43 He's in and out anyway. Been in.

1:16:45 And out of prison. Himself.

1:16:46 So he has not LED a great life, unfortunately, no.

1:16:50 Yeah. But yes.

1:16:53 Gosh, yeah. So I guess.

1:16:55 We're at the point now. Where you know the I, I guess

1:17:01 it. It comes to a point.

1:17:02 Where enough evidence or enough reasonable doubt is found on

1:17:07 appeal that OK, yes, this needs to be looked into, Yeah.

1:17:12 Because, well, there's new DNA evidence because.

1:17:14 Oh. Yeah, that's right.

1:17:16 In 1993, obviously DNA was in its infancy.

1:17:20 So it was, it was a thing, but it didn't, it wasn't great.

1:17:25 Yeah, so sorry, something else. That got brought up in.

1:17:29 This that trial that we could go back to again and it's DNA

1:17:32 related. Is that this Paradise Lost

1:17:36 documentaries being made during all of this?

1:17:38 Yes. And a, a point in that

1:17:40 documentary, one of the boys who was killed, father or a

1:17:44 stepfather, I should say. So he's he's by the name of John

1:17:49 Mark Byers. He gave the production crew of

1:17:53 the HBO documentary a knife. And it was it, it was a gesture

1:17:56 of, you know, like, thank you kind of like for doing the

1:17:59 documentary and like this is, you know, a gift for you, which

1:18:03 they they took away and didn't think too much of it.

1:18:06 Like, you know, I'll call like a possession from that, you know,

1:18:08 experience of running, you know, producing that etcetera.

1:18:11 Off they go in looking at that knife.

1:18:14 After a while, they realized that on this knife was something

1:18:19 that appeared to look a little bit like blood, so a little

1:18:23 rusty. Mark and.

1:18:24 Yeah. So.

1:18:27 They end up. Handing it over to police just

1:18:29 to get looked at and it. Comes back with.

1:18:34 With blood on it with the DNA can prove that it's blood and

1:18:38 that that DNA is the same make up as John Mark.

1:18:44 Bias. But also, and it's his stepson,

1:18:48 so it's quite uncommon, I guess it not it's the same blood type

1:18:52 as his stepson Christopher Bias. So that's interesting.

1:18:57 So they bring him in and interview him and John Mark

1:19:02 Byers in that interview says without them knowing him, really

1:19:06 knowing why he's there sort of thing they they present to him

1:19:09 and say, you know, I believe you handed a, a knife over to, you

1:19:13 know, to the production crew. And, you know, he's he's like,

1:19:15 yeah, yeah. And he's like, did you ever use

1:19:17 that knife? And like, no, no, it's never

1:19:18 been used. OK.

1:19:20 Because that's weird because we found blood on it.

1:19:23 The only reason why there would be blood on it.

1:19:25 And he then sort of went off, No?

1:19:27 No. Idea never.

1:19:27 It's never been used. He stuck to that story like

1:19:29 never been used. They pulled him up on that trial

1:19:33 to say, you know, like, oh, wasn't it during one of the

1:19:35 appeals? Appeals was during the appeal,

1:19:38 Yeah, yeah. That you know and.

1:19:40 Question him about it, then on the.

1:19:41 Stand and he changed his story. Like literally on the stand he

1:19:45 changed his story. And he's like, Oh no, no, I did

1:19:47 use it once when I. Cut some made-up for like, you

1:19:49 know, deer or something that he'd haunted or and and then

1:19:52 they were like, but hold on a minute doesn't match deer blood.

1:19:55 It matches your blood. And he was, Oh well, in the

1:19:58 process of doing that, I might have cut my thumb.

1:20:03 Hang on, wait. We've gone.

1:20:03 From never been used. Yeah, to now this anyways that

1:20:09 apparently that. Appeal.

1:20:10 That was not. Enough to get up another, you

1:20:13 know, get another trial or any of that sort of stuff.

1:20:15 So yeah, even though to me that was.

1:20:18 Very that was new evidence that. Could very much show reasonable

1:20:21 doubt again, yeah, of someone else's potential involvement in

1:20:25 this, but that comes into play, I guess, a bit later as well.

1:20:29 But so, yeah, there was that DNA evidence.

1:20:30 But there's another lot of DNA evidence that's come up since

1:20:33 was that there was a hair found on the bottom of a shoe in the

1:20:36 shoelaces. In the shoelaces.

1:20:37 That's right. Yep.

1:20:38 Initially, there was a hair. Found that matched the DNA of

1:20:42 Terry Hobbs, who is the stepfather of Stevie Branch.

1:20:47 So now that DNA absolutely is his and it is absolutely not

1:20:54 Damien. Jason or Jesse's yes.

1:20:56 So again, so this is 2. This is like DNA.

1:20:58 That's not. Coming back going, oh, well, now

1:21:00 we're linking Damien to this or, you know, anything like that.

1:21:02 Yeah, to separate people. So now we've got Terry Hobbs's

1:21:05 DNA at the scene. Now, look, could that have been

1:21:08 a transfer DNA? I mean, they all these boys had

1:21:09 been in that man's house. Yeah.

1:21:11 You know, and and at that scene. So not saying that it's not that

1:21:15 he was there. But.

1:21:18 Could have been, could have been, could have been.

1:21:21 So saying that he what? Yeah.

1:21:23 That's it, Yeah. So there was there was this DNA

1:21:25 evidence that's. Coming up since and there was

1:21:27 also sorry and there's also some more DNA stuff that was found to

1:21:31 not be related to any of the three boys at the at the scene

1:21:35 like as in the the victims not related to any of the three men

1:21:39 who have been convicted not Terry Hobbs and not yeah buyers

1:21:44 yeah so. There's.

1:21:46 DNA there of multiple people, none of which are the people who

1:21:51 are convicted. Yes, OK.

1:21:54 Now that. Was I believe.

1:21:55 That DNA could have been saliva. I think it was a hair A.

1:22:00 Hair, I think as well. I.

1:22:02 Think it was a hair. I know a hair is this.

1:22:04 The is this the? Hair, that was.

1:22:05 Linked to Terry Hobbs friend David Jacoby.

1:22:08 Oh, I don't know about that one, so.

1:22:11 In the the. Knot.

1:22:13 The hairs that were found in the in that knot.

1:22:15 Yeah, some. Or one.

1:22:19 Was not consistent with that of Terry.

1:22:24 And they, I think. There's a link, I don't know if

1:22:28 this has been proven or not, but he has a friend named David

1:22:31 Jacoby and I believe it matches his profile, his DNA profile,

1:22:37 and I mean again, someone's probably been in their.

1:22:39 House could be transferred, yeah, yeah, but still not.

1:22:43 Damien. Echols not the.

1:22:44 The thing to me though, is the fact that these.

1:22:46 Hairs were found inside the knot that is that a casual transfer?

1:22:51 I know or. Is that I mean?

1:22:52 You can't in the prove that, but I think there's more to it than

1:22:56 don't you? Think I do.

1:22:57 I really do. Yeah.

1:22:59 I, I mean, but I, I guess the bigger thing I I grasp on that

1:23:02 is that it's there's like all these these little bits of DNA

1:23:05 are being found. Yeah, none of them are the three

1:23:06 people already convicted. I think that's the thing we need

1:23:08 to take away that I focus, I mean.

1:23:09 In terms of like the appeals in this?

1:23:10 Case here, I mean, the whole who did do this then, yeah, is

1:23:14 another bigger, bigger question again.

1:23:16 But in finding all these bits of DNA, we're not finding anything

1:23:19 that still puts these these boys there.

1:23:21 Yeah. Do you wanna talk about?

1:23:23 The other suspects? Oh, let's so 'cause I mean.

1:23:27 Obviously. Terry Oh, should we before we do

1:23:29 that, should we just click tidy up in terms of the where we're

1:23:32 at with the the Memphis Three? Yeah, with Memphis Three, Sorry,

1:23:35 no. So just to say so with the

1:23:37 they're in jail and they they appeal after appeal after

1:23:39 appeal, not going anywhere. Many years they're in jail.

1:23:43 They do get to a point where some of this, this evidence does

1:23:45 get to a point where, I mean, there's so many people behind

1:23:47 them in this. We talk about there's many

1:23:49 celebrities like the Dixie Chicks says when, when Eddie

1:23:52 Vedder, That's it, when. This.

1:23:54 Documentary came out. It got a groundswell of support,

1:23:57 yeah, because everybody blind fucking Freddie can see, Yeah,

1:24:01 that there's issues. And this is the thing.

1:24:04 I mean HBO. As we say, they got.

1:24:05 Onto this so early yeah they didn't go into this going oh

1:24:08 we're gonna get the we we wanna help the people get off this

1:24:10 They just were documenting that was that was their yeah and this

1:24:14 is what came out of it so yeah it's pretty unbelievable but so

1:24:19 they did get a groundswell of support without.

1:24:21 That, yeah, they would never have gotten into the.

1:24:23 They would never have gotten out.

1:24:24 No way. Yeah.

1:24:25 So it got to a point where the courts had to kind of do

1:24:27 something and they've. So they did end up winning an

1:24:30 appeal to have a retrial. However, as we've talked about

1:24:36 this in one of our other cases in the staircase trial, they

1:24:38 were very nervous to retry them because he didn't have the

1:24:42 evidence to back it. Up.

1:24:43 But they weren't. They weren't willing to.

1:24:45 Back down on that a little bit either the prosecution, so it

1:24:48 got to a little bit of stalemate in terms of plea deals and they

1:24:52 what was basically put to the three the West Memphis 3 was

1:24:56 that if they would be willing to accept an Alfred plea, which

1:25:00 means that they say they're innocent but plea guilty.

1:25:05 Yeah, so they say they're innocent, but they accept.

1:25:07 The fact that there's evidence to show that they are guilty

1:25:10 could be they could be convicted and found guilty.

1:25:13 Yeah, so. And then so if they put that

1:25:15 plea in, if they agree to that, then the court, they would give

1:25:19 them 18 years. So time, time served.

1:25:23 And they would be free. So this was a really tough

1:25:26 decision and I, I really Jason Bulwin particularly, he backed

1:25:30 off and he was like, I'm not saying I'm guilty, I'm guilty of

1:25:33 this. I did not do this.

1:25:34 And he was kind of, I wanna, I wanna make him go to trial

1:25:36 because I reckon I can get off. I will get off.

1:25:39 But in the end, what convinced him not to was that if something

1:25:42 goes goes awry, his best mate in the world, Damien, would die

1:25:47 because he was on death row still.

1:25:49 Still, the only thing keeping him alive was the fact that

1:25:52 these appeals were going through.

1:25:53 That's right. So he knew that if this went

1:25:56 pear shaped and it could cause it did the first time like kind

1:25:59 of thing that his mate would be killed.

1:26:02 So at the last minute, literally, literally, literally,

1:26:05 he was convinced to I can't do this to my friend.

1:26:08 Yeah. And put the play in and said,

1:26:11 you know, OK, I'll accept that you're that we're guilty and put

1:26:16 that plea in which that it breaks me for him.

1:26:18 I just feel for him so much in that so do I, but I also

1:26:21 sometimes. Think, you know, he.

1:26:24 I I understand he wanted justice, Yeah.

1:26:26 But that was never going to happen in this case.

1:26:28 It was already so unjust. What had happened to these three

1:26:31 boys, three men? Yeah.

1:26:33 The fact that they lost the prime of their lives, you know,

1:26:37 missed out on seeing their child grow up and all of those things.

1:26:41 I just think, you know, at least they got out.

1:26:46 Yeah. And they were in their late 30s

1:26:49 at the time, so they were able to try and start establishing

1:26:53 themselves back in the community.

1:26:56 But people still believe they're guilty and people that really

1:27:00 still feel they're. Guilty wrongly feel that and are

1:27:02 very. Vocal about it and who still

1:27:06 don't understand that just because you might believe

1:27:10 something or dress in a certain way does not mean you're a

1:27:12 fucking murderer. No, not at all.

1:27:14 Child predator. Or whatever it.

1:27:17 Is you think these people may have done exactly so?

1:27:21 Yeah, so they do. They have got.

1:27:23 Out but I. Mean that to me it leaves this

1:27:25 massive question mark. I mean, I'm sorry, they didn't

1:27:26 do it. There's nothing linking them to

1:27:28 this case. They did not.

1:27:29 They did not do this. So who did?

1:27:30 Who did? All right, all.

1:27:32 Right, let's go into it. Let's go for it.

1:27:34 So alternative suspects OK. Should we talk about, do you

1:27:37 reckon, Terry Hobbs first? Yeah, well, I mean, obviously

1:27:40 like there's the Bojangles. Dude like that we spoke about.

1:27:43 So I guess #1 like, you know, yeah, he was.

1:27:46 Who is he? Who is he?

1:27:47 We don't know who he. Is there is a?

1:27:49 Truck stop not far from this where they were.

1:27:53 Found where the boys were found, yeah.

1:27:55 Could he have been a truck driver just coming through?

1:27:56 Could he have hit you? Right out of there like nobody.

1:28:01 I think in a in this town, I think if he wasn't instantly

1:28:05 recognizable to the people in Bojangles anyway, they didn't

1:28:08 know who he was. Yeah.

1:28:09 So was he somebody? Yeah, just coming through some

1:28:12 kind of transient, you know, as you said, truck driver or you

1:28:16 know what, what put him in that place at that time?

1:28:18 We don't actually. We just don't know so.

1:28:22 Terry Hobbs Terry Hobbs So Stevie's stepdad.

1:28:26 Yeah, the hair. Obviously.

1:28:29 Found inside. The knot that was tied around

1:28:31 Michael Michael Moore? Yep.

1:28:35 He. Was not a very nice man just I

1:28:38 was just gonna say just genuinely a piece.

1:28:40 Of shit piece of shit so abused his wife and.

1:28:44 His stepchildren and his children.

1:28:46 He shot his brother-in-law in the.

1:28:48 Stomach. Yep.

1:28:49 He had been convicted of that and done some time, yeah.

1:28:54 But he now, yeah. His nephew came out at some

1:28:58 point. And I believe alleged other

1:29:02 types of abuse that the. That the children were then.

1:29:06 Told to keep secret. I don't know any more details

1:29:10 than that, but there's, I feel like he's alluding to the fact

1:29:13 that there was like some kind of sexual abuse going on there too.

1:29:16 Yeah. So about four months.

1:29:18 After the trial, Terry Hobbs and his wife at the time.

1:29:23 So Chris Christopher Wise. No, sorry, not Christopher Wise.

1:29:26 Stevie Branch, his mum. The two of them split.

1:29:31 Yep, which I mean like there's it was an abusive.

1:29:36 Relationship without this going. On, I dare say this going on,

1:29:40 whether he did it or not would definitely increase volatility

1:29:44 in that relationship totally, I get that.

1:29:46 But yeah, within four months of the trial, she's left him.

1:29:50 Interesting, interesting, interesting.

1:29:52 She's actually got the courage up to leave him.

1:29:53 Maybe that's what what I think is.

1:29:54 Maybe this presented an. Opportunity for her to leave him

1:29:57 like you know, she probably didn't have that beforehand.

1:30:01 Maybe, Yep, maybe she knows more and needed.

1:30:04 To distance herself from him? Yep.

1:30:06 I don't know. Who knows?

1:30:07 We don't know. No, we don't know.

1:30:09 No. We then have John Mark.

1:30:13 Byers. Oh yeah, when I get on that one,

1:30:15 do you want? To do that, he's a very.

1:30:17 Very interesting person in. That.

1:30:20 Documentary. Oh my.

1:30:22 God, like as soon as I saw him, I was like, Oh yeah, we have a

1:30:28 winner. We have.

1:30:29 A winner. Oh my God.

1:30:30 He is a very. Very unusual person, Very so.

1:30:38 In. This we've got.

1:30:39 So I just we've got. Three families, obviously the

1:30:41 boys who are the victims, right? You've got Michael Myers,

1:30:45 Michael Moore, Michael Moore. Oh my God, Michael Moore's

1:30:47 parents, who you don't hear a lot from.

1:30:50 No, but have have have spoken, you know, to media have been

1:30:54 present. They they seem pretty normal and

1:30:57 normal. Yeah, kind of ish right.

1:30:59 You've got then, yeah, Terry Hobbs, who shield away from

1:31:03 media and that sort of, he didn't speak as much as others,

1:31:08 but present, past history of all sorts of things.

1:31:13 Yeah. Interesting character.

1:31:14 Not a good dude, Not a good dude.

1:31:16 And then you've got Christopher Bayer's parents, who obviously

1:31:19 stepdad and mum who, my God, you could not get this guy away from

1:31:25 a camera. Oh, he fucking loved it.

1:31:28 Absolutely. He loved the.

1:31:30 Attention. He loved the attention.

1:31:31 Bible verses and Oh my God and he can just rant off the top of

1:31:35 his head. Like he literally doesn't shut

1:31:38 the fuck. Up.

1:31:38 Nope, Nope, Nope. Nope, Nope, Nope.

1:31:42 Look, I mean, as we've just said about Damian.

1:31:43 Nichols and and Jesse and Jason just because he's weird doesn't

1:31:47 make him a killer. No, no, that's fair.

1:31:51 But there's. Plenty of other.

1:31:53 Things right So he had obviously a wife and two kids actually

1:32:00 prior to meeting Christopher Byers mum now that was

1:32:04 incredibly violent. There was all sorts of stuff

1:32:07 that went on with that relationship.

1:32:09 Yeah. So that was and he he had

1:32:11 nothing to do with then the kids from that relationship later on.

1:32:13 So he left left that relationship and moved on to

1:32:18 Christopher Byers mother. And now Christopher Byers was

1:32:20 about I want to say like pretty. He's pretty young.

1:32:23 He was an infant when they got together, right?

1:32:26 But at the age of 2, the neighbors were contacting child

1:32:30 protection because he was whipping Crispus so awfully in

1:32:35 full view of the neighbors sort of stuff.

1:32:37 That was that was next level abuse of him that the the

1:32:40 neighbors were involved in calling child protection over

1:32:43 him. So very obviously physically

1:32:47 abusive to both adults and children of shit.

1:32:53 And you look at him. And you're like, he has that

1:32:55 like. Nasty.

1:32:56 Look about him, too. Like you look at him and you're

1:32:58 like, oh, he really kind of like, you feel guarded, like

1:33:03 just looking at his face and the way he talks and he's like,

1:33:05 yeah, that's very passionate about things.

1:33:08 And like, you'd just be like, oh fuck.

1:33:10 You'd flip on a dime. On a dime.

1:33:11 Well, literally that has been. It was a.

1:33:13 Comment from the police. So when they attended a scene

1:33:16 where what they he was living with he was with Chris by his

1:33:20 mum at this point. OK, but for whatever reason the

1:33:23 his ex-wife had been around and he beat the shit out of her.

1:33:27 Oh I didn't know. And the cops rocked up and they

1:33:29 said that he that Mark Byers would literally flip between,

1:33:33 like, being totally, like, manic about it and all this sort of

1:33:38 stuff to being completely calm and fine.

1:33:41 Oh, Jesus. That's scary.

1:33:42 Yeah. But a lot of people even in

1:33:44 that. Documentary where would comment

1:33:46 things around he's he's very different off camera than he is

1:33:49 on camera. Yeah, there was a lot of that

1:33:50 sort of mention throughout. Someone said something like his

1:33:53 behaviour. In front of the camera is highly

1:33:55 theatrical and I'm like, yes it is.

1:33:57 It is theatrical. He's like the way even.

1:34:00 Even the way he kind of like sing song.

1:34:01 Talks and he's like and down through the valley of the shadow

1:34:05 of death, you know, like he's he's fucking we.

1:34:09 There's the same way in. The movie and I'm.

1:34:11 Sure, I, I couldn't have filmed it without pissing myself

1:34:14 laughing at him behind the camera.

1:34:16 Because like when he goes to like the the grave site and

1:34:18 stuff and like the way he places everything so purposefully so

1:34:22 that the camera can pick all this stuff up.

1:34:24 It's so theatrical. It's performative.

1:34:26 It's performative, performative. He.

1:34:27 He does, Yeah, that's right. It's it's so it's really

1:34:30 disconcerting, though. It's on the scene when he goes

1:34:32 down. Was actually he returned to the

1:34:34 scene of where the boys were found and the boy and the and

1:34:39 Damian and Jason and Jesse have been convicted and he like burns

1:34:42 like the grant. Oh no, it's during the trial.

1:34:44 I think he's during it is 93. He does it, he goes.

1:34:47 There. And he burns that.

1:34:47 Section and stuff. It's like I'm burning you, you

1:34:49 can go to hell. And like he also says, he also

1:34:52 says, oh, he's weird. He also says that when the when

1:34:56 the the three, the West Memphis, what are known as the West West

1:35:00 Memphis 3, when they're convicted and after they die,

1:35:03 he's gonna go and basically piss on their graves.

1:35:06 Yeah, spit on their graves and like, celebrate the day they

1:35:09 die. Yeah.

1:35:10 Oh my God. And a couple of the parents do

1:35:12 say similar things. Oh, look, I mean if if you, I

1:35:15 mean you. Truly believe that they were the

1:35:17 one who killed your kid. I can understand being as you

1:35:19 can be as angry as you want them and like whatever.

1:35:20 I kind of like whatever, but when they get released right

1:35:26 then it's like he flips entirely and he's like, what's even

1:35:31 before they do, he gets on their like bandwagon of, you know,

1:35:33 yeah, they're innocent and jumps on Terry Hobbs.

1:35:36 Yep, like I find. That very.

1:35:38 Interesting that it's deflection, full deflection that

1:35:42 I I know. Some people might sort of look.

1:35:43 At that and go well, you know, can't have been him then if he's

1:35:45 getting on board and getting them out.

1:35:47 But I just go, no, it's whatever.

1:35:48 It's because the story that's running it's.

1:35:51 Serving him, he's serving. Him and he's got another target

1:35:53 to look at too. It's still not him and he got

1:35:55 the media attention he wanted out of it.

1:35:56 Oh my. God, you see him hovering in the

1:35:58 background of like. The the journalists like when

1:36:00 he's like, well, so you'd want to interview me like, yeah,

1:36:03 like, hello, hello. I'm over here.

1:36:05 Happy, happy to interview him. Bring me in.

1:36:07 Yeah. So anyway.

1:36:09 They he. There's so many problematic

1:36:11 things with him. One of the biggest things

1:36:13 though, is that. Just prior.

1:36:16 To these boys going missing, there is an incident with.

1:36:21 It's that one way. With.

1:36:23 His ex-wife. Now the the cops get him brought

1:36:28 in as an informant, so he works. He was working as an.

1:36:32 Informant. At this time when their boys go

1:36:34 missing, he's working as an informant.

1:36:36 Not only is he informing on people, the cops are

1:36:39 investigating him about a scam. Oh, not Rolex watches, yes,

1:36:45 right. They're about to.

1:36:48 Arrest him when the boys go missing.

1:36:53 Nothing. Ever.

1:36:54 Comes out about that until. Much, much later, the cops

1:36:56 literally just sweep it all under the run and rug and forget

1:36:59 about it because the boys have gone missing.

1:37:01 Yeah, he knew that he was under. The he knew that it was coming.

1:37:05 The arrest as well, by the way. So he was probably under a bit

1:37:07 of stress at the time. Yeah, Mike, I won't say.

1:37:09 Yeah, weird. So then.

1:37:13 After all this occurs, they Melissa, which is his wife and

1:37:17 Chris's mum. They move from West Memphis

1:37:21 because they want to move away from the the publicity of all of

1:37:25 this. Do they?

1:37:27 Do they? So they move to a place called.

1:37:29 Cherokee. Village.

1:37:31 Which is again another very small town and don't exactly

1:37:35 make friends with the neighbors, although they did start out as

1:37:39 friends. In the end they ended up taking

1:37:41 out a restraining order against him because he hit their son

1:37:45 with a metal rod. Oh with a metal rod?

1:37:47 That's right. Oh Jesus, I didn't realise it

1:37:50 was. With a metal rod.

1:37:51 Oh sorry, metal end of a swatter.

1:37:53 Oh, same. Sorry.

1:37:54 Yeah, same thing. Something metal.

1:37:56 Anyway, their five year old child, they he whipped them with

1:37:59 that and he he also would he would shoot.

1:38:03 Guns at their house. Yeah, as well, like, so it was

1:38:06 all sorts of stuff going on with them that they put a restraining

1:38:08 order against him. Also as well as that, Melissa

1:38:12 and him were actually arrested for burglary.

1:38:15 They there was a house that had had 20 grands worth stuff stolen

1:38:20 and that was found at their place basically.

1:38:23 Now when they they were being looked at this.

1:38:25 So obviously they were arrested. They weren't taken into custody.

1:38:28 They were out, but they were going to be put on trial for it.

1:38:31 Yeah, because I was pleading guilty.

1:38:33 I'm pleading not guilty. Sorry on it.

1:38:35 But in that time frame, a second crime occurred at that house

1:38:39 where police were investigating an explosion and a subsequent

1:38:44 fire that destroyed a a motorhome.

1:38:49 Funny that. Wonder if he was part of that as

1:38:52 well. Interesting.

1:38:54 I mean, again, do we believe in coincidences?

1:38:59 The other. Incident that has occurred.

1:39:01 Since all this is where now I kind of got a bit confused on

1:39:05 this one, whether or not it was his son and that.

1:39:08 Are you talking about John's son?

1:39:10 Yeah. OK, that he what happened?

1:39:13 Was that? Was again in Cherokee.

1:39:14 Village. Yep.

1:39:15 They were driving through the town and there was a group of

1:39:18 boys and they were sort of picking on another kid, right?

1:39:22 So he drove up with this kid in his car.

1:39:25 Now it's kind of inferred that I'm guessing.

1:39:28 That it would be his son, but they.

1:39:29 Like they don't, the police don't sort of name him as the

1:39:32 son because I guess that would name and name a minor.

1:39:35 So they kind of dance around whether or not it's his son or

1:39:37 not. But there's a kid in his car who

1:39:40 now these are sort of they're teenagers.

1:39:42 I think they might be like 15 ish right right.

1:39:44 They're driving through the town.

1:39:45 They. See this?

1:39:46 They pull. Up to it John gets out of the

1:39:48 car Mark sorry John Mark buyers we should just say I'm using the

1:39:51 word John and Mark for him because he goes by both but yeah

1:39:54 exactly yeah, it's confusing buyers we'll call him get they

1:39:57 get out of the vehicle and. He gives.

1:39:59 His this 15 year old kid that's with him a knife and takes him

1:40:05 over to. Involve.

1:40:08 Himself in this right. Now, the whole time this guy,

1:40:11 this kid there then like he's encouraged to participate in

1:40:14 like relentlessly bullying this other young teenage kid, the

1:40:18 other. And so meanwhile, while this is

1:40:20 going on, Byers has a gun on him and he infers he didn't use the

1:40:26 gun. But he just.

1:40:26 Held it, which makes it better apparently.

1:40:29 To keep the other kids away. To stop this kid with the knife

1:40:32 from bullying this teenager. People witnessed this.

1:40:37 It's all a thing. He admits to doing it and things

1:40:39 nothing wrong with it, but in the end, God, that says a lot.

1:40:42 Yeah, so. He is convict.

1:40:45 Sort of charged with contributing to the delinquency

1:40:49 of a minor, which is a Class A misdemeanor, which, yeah, he

1:40:53 absolutely. He handed a young kid a knife

1:40:56 and said go for it. And he's.

1:40:58 Yeah, his words to the cops were like that.

1:41:00 Wouldn't you do the same? They should just work it out

1:41:02 themselves, right? OK.

1:41:05 Yeah, Yeah, OK. Yeah, he is an absolute weird

1:41:13 ass sack of shit. Has priors, has more recent your

1:41:19 number one convictions. Yes, he's my number one.

1:41:22 I just think. Also, like the knife, the blood

1:41:27 they found, like it was a folding knife.

1:41:29 So the blood that they found in that yeah, belonging like the

1:41:34 same blood type as OK as Christopher.

1:41:37 Yes, I can understand that. Yeah, sorry.

1:41:40 As Mark, yes, I. Can understand that, sorry.

1:41:43 But with Christopher's blood like a similar type as

1:41:46 Christopher's. Blood in.

1:41:47 There. That to me is like, OK, then

1:41:50 what perpetration has happened, even if it wasn't the killing of

1:41:54 these boys. Yeah.

1:41:55 And The thing is too that like has he today with our DNA

1:41:59 testing? Right.

1:42:00 You could determine whether it was Mark Byers or Christopher

1:42:04 Byers, Yes. However, in the process of

1:42:06 finding out anything about this blood that they did find it at

1:42:09 least that out that it was one of theirs.

1:42:12 Yeah. It was all used and destroyed.

1:42:14 Like as in it was in the process of of testing it, it was it was

1:42:18 all used up and like, and it cannot be retested now.

1:42:20 No. So I, I mean that it's like a

1:42:22 point of Oh my God, how much frustration is that?

1:42:24 Yeah. That if there was some part of

1:42:26 that that was they would maintain potentially.

1:42:29 I know if we could prove. That it was definitely Chris.

1:42:31 'S blood on there because yeah, so then I guess we get to the

1:42:34 fact of that Chris Byers body was more brutally mutilated than

1:42:41 the other two boys. Yep.

1:42:42 So his stepson and I I mean he just calls him his son, which I

1:42:46 get because he knew him from so young.

1:42:48 Yeah, so, yeah, so his and he's got his name I guess.

1:42:51 Yeah, he does. He did.

1:42:52 Adopt him, yeah. Yeah, so his son is the one

1:42:56 who's most affected by the brutality of it.

1:43:00 Not to say the other kids were not brutally murdered, because

1:43:02 they were, they all were, but if you wanted.

1:43:04 To scale it, yeah. Unfortunately, Christopher,

1:43:07 that. Speaks it he.

1:43:08 Definitely had more and. Also he his was unique to that

1:43:14 of the other two boys as well. The other two boys had very

1:43:17 similar injuries and methods of death, whereas Christopher's was

1:43:20 different almost to the point of like, I mean just even.

1:43:24 On the point of how they were murdered, that almost drowning

1:43:27 them at that point was almost bit of mercy killing in the in

1:43:30 terms of like, you know, well, you know, I don't want to do any

1:43:32 more to them. I'll just I'll just drown them,

1:43:33 which sounds fucking awful, but you know, it gets it done quick

1:43:36 and for them, whereas Christopher did he he died of

1:43:40 his injuries where he so he got no relief from that in terms of

1:43:45 that side of it. I don't know if that's if that

1:43:46 sounds fucking awful. I know it does.

1:43:48 But I know what you're saying. Yeah.

1:43:50 Yeah, there's no good way here to go, but no.

1:43:54 Oh God. But there's a question.

1:43:57 Mark, then over some of the injuries, Yeah, well, I think

1:44:01 the autopsy showed. So there was there were injuries

1:44:04 to the boy's genitalia. Yeah, and specifically

1:44:07 Christopher's. Now.

1:44:10 Basically his penis had been degloved so the skin was taken

1:44:16 off, but the flesh was still there.

1:44:20 Now, at first the. Police thought that.

1:44:24 This was part of this satanic ritual, yeah, and it was some

1:44:28 kind of sacrifice. However, on autopsy, the coroner

1:44:34 concluded that it was likely that an animal actually took

1:44:39 that piece of flesh. But the coroner that concluded

1:44:42 that as in. Like that wasn't the original no

1:44:44 autopsy either. So during the trial situation

1:44:47 was believed that this was all perpetrated by whoever did this.

1:44:49 Yeah, it's not until we get to this final appeal process.

1:44:52 Yeah. Where real experts for for real.

1:44:56 No, for real. So Doctor Werner Spitz, who

1:44:58 we've talked about him previously on episodes.

1:45:01 I believe he was involved in the staircase one.

1:45:02 Yeah, I think so yeah. He's pretty much his face pops

1:45:05 up in all sorts of cases, everything you sort of seem he's

1:45:08 he is the well, he is the Australian, sorry, the

1:45:10 Australian, the American expert in pathology.

1:45:13 Yeah, he's very much. He's particularly.

1:45:15 Blood. Is his game.

1:45:17 But yeah, in this, he came out and said that his review of this

1:45:21 was that he could see where there was scratch marks from

1:45:24 animals on some of the injuries that in the trial had been

1:45:27 presented as though there were further injuries by the

1:45:29 perpetrators. But he said they're clearly like

1:45:32 marks from animals like. And he said, look, foxes,

1:45:34 coyotes, like all those sorts of animals that would be in that

1:45:36 area overnight. Obviously if this was, say,

1:45:39 perpetrated in the late evening also of the of the fifth, you

1:45:42 know, they've then those bodies then sat there until I think it

1:45:44 was 1:45 in the afternoon. They were found, yes, the next

1:45:47 day. So there's, they've sat for

1:45:48 quite some time where animals would have been brought to this.

1:45:51 Yeah, Yeah. So there was other marks other

1:45:54 than just what happens and also the way the flesh had been like

1:45:57 ripped. Off, not cut off.

1:45:59 So they know well, I think his, his expert opinion is that the

1:46:05 flesh hadn't been cut with a knife.

1:46:07 It's actually been torn off. And that's not something that

1:46:11 you could sort of do with your. Hands like it.

1:46:14 It has been that, yeah, teeth have been teeth have been used

1:46:18 to to take that off and be and that's, you know, a lot of the

1:46:20 the talk around. In the trial of this.

1:46:22 Was like to. Do what was what happened to to

1:46:25 Chris Byers in that way? There would have been a lot of

1:46:27 blood. Yeah.

1:46:29 Now there was water involved. And they talked about try

1:46:32 someone, a person trying to do that in the water, et cetera.

1:46:36 Like to mean that there was no blood there, which it created

1:46:39 this whole idea of someone being very particular about it, very

1:46:44 meticulous. Meticulous and yeah.

1:46:46 Which even. The people who were accusing

1:46:48 like, I mean, Damien and Jesse and and Jason of doing these

1:46:52 things kind of, I mean, it made question marks for me even

1:46:54 further of like what you're saying.

1:46:56 These guys are the guys who did that there.

1:46:58 But anyway, exactly like the 16 year old boy was.

1:47:01 Able to really meticulously, you know, think this through and

1:47:04 plan this out. We all know what 16 year old

1:47:06 boys are. Whereas yeah, an animal doing

1:47:09 that. Makes so much more sense to me

1:47:10 in that there were two other suspects that were I think.

1:47:13 They've been pretty much discounted, but at the time you

1:47:16 know that it was definitely something that needed to be

1:47:19 looked into. But there were two teenagers

1:47:23 that had been in town, had caused some trouble.

1:47:25 I believe in town they were named Chris Morgan and Brian

1:47:29 Holland. They'd, they'd had prize for

1:47:32 lots of other things, but a day or two after the murders took

1:47:36 place, they left town. Nobody knew where they went.

1:47:40 Nobody knew they knew that they were even leaving, right?

1:47:44 They were eventually, they fled to California and they were

1:47:47 found there and they were interviewed by a Californian

1:47:51 police. And I believe they did a

1:47:53 polygraph. And Chris Morgan showed

1:47:58 deception on his polygraph when certain questions about the

1:48:03 crime was asked. Yeah.

1:48:05 And then he also said to police after the the polygraph that he

1:48:11 may have killed the boys because he'd blacked out and he couldn't

1:48:15 remember what had happened. Jesus.

1:48:17 Nothing has ever come of that. So that makes me think that's

1:48:19 kind of been fizzled into nothing.

1:48:22 Nothing there. That's all I could really kind

1:48:24 of find about that. But yeah, just another avenue of

1:48:27 inquiry. Sorry, going back to Mark.

1:48:30 Bias. Yeah, a couple of extra things

1:48:31 that I've just popped in my vacuum.

1:48:33 So there was so two things. He did a polygraph as well, so

1:48:38 and he does it. He did well on camera.

1:48:40 Yeah, he did it on camera in the in the documentary, which I

1:48:43 think invalidates. Well, they weren't allowed to be

1:48:46 in the room. They just.

1:48:46 Left a camera running. OK, so I think then that's fine.

1:48:49 Yeah. However, but he knew he was on

1:48:51 camera. And so he was performing.

1:48:53 Oh, 100%, Yeah. So but.

1:48:55 Well, you did what did he know? Because he was on that many

1:48:58 drugs when he did that that that polygraph.

1:49:00 Yeah. So he it was 5 different types.

1:49:03 Oh, big time. So, and the guy who the guy who

1:49:06 did this polygraph is actually being known to not be great at

1:49:10 doing polygraphs. Oh yeah.

1:49:11 Well, the fact that you would administer.

1:49:13 A polygraph on somebody who was in the state he was in.

1:49:15 You're like, well, you clearly don't know what you're doing

1:49:17 because I don't know that. I can't remember now with the.

1:49:19 Questioning of how it came about that he that Mark buys admits

1:49:23 that he's on all these drugs. But I don't think it's because

1:49:26 of a question that the he asks, the interviewer asks.

1:49:30 I think it's just in natural conversation.

1:49:32 It somehow comes around to it. I don't remember that either,

1:49:35 actually, but he. Ends up listing there's five

1:49:37 drugs that. He's on and like they are

1:49:39 hardcore, like full blown psychotics, like kind of stuff

1:49:43 that he is so fucking mellow. Yeah, nothing's gonna upset him.

1:49:47 No so and so. And imagine what that's doing

1:49:50 like physiologically. Yeah.

1:49:51 What are those drugs doing to him?

1:49:52 Oh, maybe helping him pass a polygraph.

1:49:54 I don't know. So he did pass it.

1:49:56 Yeah, but I mean, it's just. It's just so not valid.

1:50:00 No, not at all. The other.

1:50:02 Thing that comes up later is that they.

1:50:04 Find that on the bodies there are teeth marks as well now look

1:50:09 teeth marks, especially when we. Say that there was.

1:50:11 Potentially animals involved in the scene, don't know if there's

1:50:14 really that would match, certainly didn't match up with

1:50:17 any of the three boys who were convicted.

1:50:19 So again, OK, that's interesting now.

1:50:23 So you'd think that maybe we could test it against other

1:50:25 people who are suspects. Be can't test it against Terry.

1:50:28 Not Terry. I'm sorry, Mark Byers.

1:50:31 Because he had all of his teeth removed.

1:50:34 Now, when did he think he had his teeth removed?

1:50:36 Well, he tells you at one stage of before the boys were

1:50:40 murdered. No, it was after about four

1:50:44 years. After.

1:50:44 I think it was. It was maybe 97.

1:50:46 I think he had his teeth. Yeah.

1:50:48 Actually, I think you're right. I remember reading. 97 Yeah,

1:50:51 dental records really don't. Tell you why.

1:50:54 There's really no reason for it. He says it's because he was got

1:50:57 he got in a fight and all his teeth got knocked out.

1:50:59 That is definitely not what's in his dental records.

1:51:01 Oh no. Another reason his teeth

1:51:03 removed, fully removed. He didn't get them knocked out

1:51:06 in a fight, no. What a dickhead.

1:51:08 So he has a full set of dentures, right?

1:51:12 He also tries and says that it's due to a particular drug he was

1:51:15 taking at 1 stage that Yeah, that's right.

1:51:18 Yeah, that's what I heard that. Drug has been proven to not have

1:51:20 that as a. Side effect.

1:51:22 So that's not true. Yeah.

1:51:23 The dental records don't state anything about it being for that

1:51:25 reason. No, it almost infers like that.

1:51:28 He maybe went to the dentist and said remove my teeth and put in

1:51:32 dentures. Thanks.

1:51:37 Oh, Jesus. So you.

1:51:39 Can't test his bite bite, but he certainly had teeth that could

1:51:44 have done that at the time of the murder.

1:51:48 So are you saying like if you look at?

1:51:50 Photos and then sort of compare photos of his teeth with the

1:51:54 marks that were on the bodies or the body that they map that they

1:51:59 could potentially match. Is that what you.

1:52:01 I have read that yeah, during. The trial and things when he's

1:52:04 on the screen and you can see how his teeth are made-up, Yeah,

1:52:07 that people have and I mean, experts have looked at it and

1:52:10 kind of gone. That could be possible, right.

1:52:13 OK. But.

1:52:15 They. They are not the teeth he has.

1:52:16 Now and you can't test and it was didn't.

1:52:19 Improve it and it was around that time that he.

1:52:23 Had them removed that, it became knowledge that they knew there

1:52:27 was teeth marks on the children. Oh, that's so interesting.

1:52:31 Now The thing is with him though, and I'm going to.

1:52:33 Say this, you can't rule out the fact that he would do that just

1:52:36 to make it look like it was him and it wasn't him.

1:52:37 Well, that's true too. I just feel like it's true.

1:52:40 Too. Yeah, he's.

1:52:41 Such a performer that it's almost like he loves his

1:52:44 attention on himself. So is that because he loves his?

1:52:47 Attention just because he. Loves attention or is there

1:52:50 attention on him because it's him I.

1:52:54 Think there's probably. A little from column A and a

1:52:58 little from column B, he's. Yeah, Oh my God.

1:53:03 I just think he's a. He's a dangerous, dangerous now

1:53:06 because he did do an interview. On ATV show too right?

1:53:11 And this was when he was saying that his teeth were taken out

1:53:16 prior to. The boys being murdered.

1:53:17 Right. So that he basically inferring

1:53:18 that the teeth he has in now or the teeth that he had when the

1:53:22 boys were killed, right. So he did this TV interview.

1:53:24 Now this TV interview never aired, OK.

1:53:27 But when he was interviewed, they said to him and brought up

1:53:30 the teeth situation on this interview.

1:53:32 He had forgotten his teeth and he did that.

1:53:34 Interview. Without his teeth in.

1:53:42 Because he wouldn't care. As long as he's got the

1:53:45 limelight, not an issue. No, not an issue for our our

1:53:50 little marquee boy. No little he's.

1:53:54 Like a full giant he is. And that's the other thing.

1:53:57 Physically, he could carry those boys and put them where he put

1:53:59 them physically and restrain three of them.

1:54:02 You know, like I. The thing is though, I still

1:54:04 think there was probably. More than one person.

1:54:06 It's it's very possible. Look, I, I for me, it's the fact

1:54:10 that the knots are all tied very differently.

1:54:13 I think the that says a lot because I think even if you were

1:54:17 in because people explain that away, people who think it's

1:54:20 buyers explain the different and think it's him alone.

1:54:24 They explain that away by saying, oh, well, you know, he

1:54:27 would have been in a panic and he would have possibly been

1:54:29 restraining one kid and just did the knot.

1:54:31 But I'm like, if you do a knot, you do a knot the way you do a

1:54:34 knot. You don't do different knots.

1:54:36 Do you know what I mean? Agree with that, but I just feel

1:54:37 like if there was more than one. Person it's more likely to have

1:54:43 come out. Who it was?

1:54:44 Do you know what I mean? Like as in if two people not

1:54:47 speaking like unlikely. I don't think so.

1:54:51 I don't think so. I just wonder could be Terry and

1:54:55 buyers. But they but they're not.

1:54:56 But they didn't. Be friends.

1:54:57 They weren't. They were so such different.

1:54:59 I mean, both pieces of shit, yeah, but different kinds of

1:55:01 pieces of shit. Like yeah, both equally as bad

1:55:04 or. Well, yeah, they were, yeah.

1:55:06 But then I'm like, oh, I don't know.

1:55:09 I don't know. It just makes me wonder.

1:55:11 I don't know. I honestly don't know what I

1:55:13 think because it's just, that's one thing for me.

1:55:16 I'm like, yeah, to me, I could see there being someone else

1:55:19 involved with this. I don't know who it would be,

1:55:21 though. No, no, I don't know.

1:55:23 And like. I don't know, but he had.

1:55:25 Friends like because. There were people sitting around

1:55:27 with him on stage on the documentary going, you know, no,

1:55:28 we're with you mate. We know you didn't do it and

1:55:30 stuff. Like we had friends somehow but

1:55:34 like attracts like. And that's the thing that

1:55:36 worries. Me like I'm like, what?

1:55:37 Who are his friends? Who is he surrounding himself

1:55:39 with him? I mean, that's exhausting.

1:55:44 But who would? Yeah, the types of people that

1:55:47 he would hang around with. I'm like, oh, I don't know, like

1:55:49 I feel like they would go like, you know what?

1:55:51 Fuck you mate. I'm gonna go to jail and I'm

1:55:53 gonna make you go with me 'cause I can't stand talking to you

1:55:55 anymore. Do you know what I mean?

1:55:56 Like you, you know the fucking? I'd rather go to prison, Yeah.

1:56:00 Yeah, I don't know. It's it's I I hope one day this

1:56:03 is solved. Yeah.

1:56:04 I don't. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:56:06 I really. Don't.

1:56:06 It will be unfortunately, I think the.

1:56:08 Police did a. Fucking shit ass job from the

1:56:10 get go. Nothing in this helped them out

1:56:13 with that. They were not willing to listen

1:56:15 to possible other outcomes and because of that there will never

1:56:18 be an outcome to this. I agree.

1:56:19 And the fact that they're now. The fact that the West Memphis

1:56:23 Three are out and they've taken an Alfred plea, I think the

1:56:27 police are probably just like we're done.

1:56:29 They think they've still, they think they've got the people who

1:56:31 did it and they're not investigating it any further.

1:56:34 It's not a cold case anymore. It's not like the three boy, the

1:56:37 three men have been found innocent.

1:56:38 No, they've just served the time.

1:56:42 Yep. Yeah.

1:56:42 And that's it. So I, I, I don't think we'll

1:56:45 ever get a resolution. No.

1:56:46 Bias is dead. So we should say that he's.

1:56:48 Dead. So we're not gonna get a

1:56:50 deathbed fuck, you know, confession from him.

1:56:52 That's true. That's been and gone.

1:56:54 Terry Hobbs is still around, I believe.

1:56:56 Yeah, Terry Hobbs is. Yeah.

1:56:57 Yeah. Still.

1:56:58 Yeah. So, but then there's these

1:57:00 unknown people in terms of like the Bojangles guy.

1:57:02 I mean, I feel like that probably needs.

1:57:06 To be really thoroughly investigated and and my thought

1:57:08 is like could Bojangles man have been by his accomplice?

1:57:16 Yeah, I don't because that, sorry.

1:57:17 I just realized the guy. That at Bojangles, he was a

1:57:19 black man. Yeah.

1:57:20 There was a hair found at the scene that was found to be of

1:57:26 African American hair, like descent.

1:57:28 Yeah, it's it wasn't a white man's hair and so that there was

1:57:33 a bit of a link. There too, so I do remember.

1:57:35 That being reading that somewhere too.

1:57:36 So yeah, I just wonder. But then how did they know?

1:57:40 Him. Did they know?

1:57:41 Each other. How's this come about?

1:57:43 I don't know. I look, there's so many things

1:57:45 and that's the thing to be for it to not be come out to me.

1:57:47 They need to known each other very well to have not DOB on

1:57:49 each other. Yeah, not being total strangers.

1:57:52 Where is. That the that guy, he would

1:57:54 stand out in that community, I think.

1:57:56 Yep, Therefore, Yep, it was a passerby, a pass.

1:58:00 Yeah, I don't know. And that doesn't.

1:58:02 You know. Doesn't just doesn't work for

1:58:04 me. No.

1:58:06 Oh man, it's crazy, Yes. Absolutely.

1:58:11 Mental. Yeah, this one done my head in

1:58:14 this week in terms. Of that I mean and what and I at

1:58:16 the end of all this and I've I've really what I hate about

1:58:19 this is that this case really does focus on the West Memphis 3

1:58:22 and they are definitely victims in this absolutely and it's

1:58:25 horrific what happened to them of being pinned for this when

1:58:28 they had nothing to do with it but.

1:58:32 Those three eight-year old. Boys, they get lost in this.

1:58:35 They do. And you and I were talking.

1:58:38 You and I were actually talking about.

1:58:39 That before we hit record today, because we in in in researching

1:58:45 this you and I both like there's as we said, there's long form

1:58:48 podcast there's, you know, a fair bit of information out

1:58:50 there about this. Most of it focuses on the

1:58:56 aftermath of the crime, not the crime itself.

1:58:58 And as we always try to be in this podcast, we try to be have

1:59:03 the victims at the center and the victims at the forefront of

1:59:06 our mind. We cannot imagine what those

1:59:08 poor boys went through. We can't imagine what their

1:59:11 families have gone through. I can't imagine losing an 8 year

1:59:17 old. Oh, God, at the thought of it.

1:59:19 I can't. I actually can't go there.

1:59:21 No. You have to almost disassociate

1:59:24 in a way because it's just a bit too close to home.

1:59:26 Yeah. So.

1:59:29 You know, I think you're right. At the end of the day, those

1:59:32 three boys did not deserve what they got, and I'm so sorry that

1:59:36 happened to them. I hope that they are wherever

1:59:39 they. Are building the best freaking

1:59:41 BMX track known to man, and that's what they're doing and

1:59:46 spending their time doing because that's what they loved

1:59:50 getting in the dirt, building those ramps, Yeah.

1:59:55 Yeah, let's leave that there. Yeah.

1:59:58 Now. Thank you to everybody.

2:00:00 For. Oh, we're getting a bit funny.

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2:00:53 Next week we are. Bringing you a.

2:00:56 Two parter, so next week will be the first parter of the Murdo

2:01:00 murders, family murder of murders.

2:01:02 My God, that's a big one and that's my research to do.

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2:02:11 Crime besties. Bye.