Episode 90 - The Lin Family Murders

0:15 Welcome to Crime Besties to Episode 90.

0:19 To getting go to go, I was. Gonna say we're inching closer,

0:23 yeah. Very fine, nearly 100.

0:25 Yeah, very. See more suggestions on that.

0:28 We've had quite a few comes through.

0:29 I've been keeping a list. So we've got, yeah, we've got

0:33 some ideas that there's one. I'll talk to you about this one

0:35 off air, but there is one that I think is a front runner for me.

0:39 Okay, so, but if you've got any more suggestions, keep them

0:42 coming 'cause we will be finalizing that.

0:44 Well, we're almost ready to to sort of do that part of our

0:46 scheduling. So yeah, yeah, please let us

0:49 know or any other cases that you want to hear as well.

0:51 I love love hearing people's suggestions.

0:53 Oh, definitely. No, we definitely use them.

0:55 We definitely put them on the list and we may not do them

0:57 immediately, but we do that. We're getting through that list

0:59 and yeah. Absolutely.

1:00 Yeah, that's it. One episode a week.

1:02 Absolutely. Now tell me, how has your week

1:05 been? You've still, I think we spoke

1:07 about this in last episode. You weren't feeling 100%.

1:10 You're still not. Well, literally, I think the

1:12 next day I sent you a voice memo where I don't know that there

1:15 was any voice you. Didn't have any.

1:19 I had 0 voice the following day after we recorded.

1:21 So thankfully, cause at that point we were on that Friday,

1:23 we're like oh, should we do another day then?

1:25 You know, like do we hold off? Yeah, luckily we didn't because

1:28 yeah, I didn't have a voice pretty much.

1:29 Definitely Saturday, nothing. Sunday I had barely any any

1:33 voice and then got back to work this week with, you know, a bit

1:38 of voice I. Mean just.

1:39 You'll still hear it. Yeah, you'll.

1:40 Clear it now. I've.

1:40 Yeah, I'm still slowly getting it back.

1:42 Yeah. And sometimes I'll go to speak

1:45 and there's no projection. Like so sorry about the raspy

1:48 voice that we might cop by the end of this episode.

1:51 No, no, that's fine. The people will, you know, all

1:54 will be forgiven. So I'm sure thank you for being

1:57 here and and doing it when you're still not feeling 100.

1:59 Percent. I feel OK, just tired.

2:01 Yeah, I guess, but it's that's the way, that's the thing, isn't

2:04 it? And then you can't get a good

2:05 sleep 'cause you're not feeling great.

2:06 And then it takes longer to get to get better, yeah.

2:10 Yeah, I've just, I mean, 'cause I don't stop.

2:12 Like you don't stop. You just can't.

2:14 My mum's. Yeah.

2:16 Yeah, working, et cetera, that it's like if I take a day off,

2:18 I'm, I'm just further behind. So yeah, exactly.

2:20 And the kids don't stop, so I don't stop.

2:23 No they don't. No, they don't.

2:25 So we're just soldier on. I've had a but I've had a quiet

2:27 weekend this weekend to sort of take it easy and try and get

2:31 back a little bit of rest and things.

2:33 So I finished watching a series today that I've been like

2:38 slowly, like just, you know, it's been my my go to of like

2:40 when I just need nothing to watch sort of stuff like go on.

2:43 But I've watched it before and I'm sure all of our audience

2:46 have definitely watched this. And if you haven't, holy crap,

2:48 what rock ever been living under but Wentworth?

2:51 Oh Wentworth is fantastic. I rewatched the entire like you,

2:55 I've been, it's been going for a while, OK, This has been my my

2:58 one that I've been going on for quite some time.

3:00 But yeah, I, I finished that whole thing today.

3:02 So I'm now like, now what am I gonna, what am I gonna revisit?

3:05 Now. Yeah, yeah.

3:07 So, yeah, no. God, that is so bloody good.

3:09 That show that series. So good.

3:10 So good. Yeah.

3:12 Not really enjoyed going, even going back on it.

3:15 Like, I mean, I feel like I, I, yeah, yeah, there's like, 'cause

3:19 there was the new ones they brought in, like the last two

3:21 seasons were like, there's quite a gap between when they then

3:23 brought the last two seasons out.

3:25 Yeah, there's a clear difference between them, but still, Buddy

3:29 good, buddy good. Yeah, good TV.

3:31 Yeah. Have you?

3:32 Is this just the second time you've watched it through or is?

3:35 It I think it'll be the second. Time.

3:36 Yeah, I've only ever watched it once.

3:38 It's not something I've revisited, but maybe that might

3:40 be a go up. But then I've got so much other

3:42 new TV that I always wanna watch.

3:44 I'll give me some suggestions 'cause I.

3:46 Mean there's there is an infinite number of Real

3:51 Housewives franchises. Well, have you started Rhode

3:54 Island? No.

3:56 Actually saw that the other day. It's only new.

3:59 Oh my God, it's so good. It's.

4:02 So good. I reckon it's look, still Salt

4:06 Lake's up there for me. It's up there.

4:07 Yeah, it always will be. But this has got like, a similar

4:11 vibe to it. You know how Beverly Hills is a

4:13 bit polished? Yes.

4:14 All these Rhode Island girls aren't.

4:16 And it's. So I think it's gonna be a lot

4:18 of fun and it's quite scrappy. And they're already like,

4:21 attacking each other's, like, appearances and things they wear

4:25 and their character and so and so is having an affair with so

4:29 and so and. Oh, it's.

4:30 Actually fantastic. It's really so it's Jersey Shore

4:33 esque. Yeah, definitely.

4:34 Yeah, probably of like a little bit, you know, dipping a toe

4:38 into that pool maybe. Because I'm a bit mad on the

4:41 valley at the moment too. Yeah, I haven't.

4:43 I haven't gotten into that. Oh wow, you got to watch.

4:46 That I've got it sitting there. Yeah, yeah.

4:48 I just haven't gotten. Into now season 3, I think

4:50 they're up to on that one that I'm watching.

4:51 Actually, they advertised that in one of the Rhode Island

4:55 episodes I was watching, so I do need to get into that.

4:57 Yeah, I mean, because I loved Vanderpump and like to then go

5:00 into that one like in like it's closer to my age, I guess.

5:03 Definitely. Yeah.

5:05 You sort of see the, you know, the transition into the

5:07 different lifestyle that. Yeah, it's very interesting.

5:10 I can't wait. Yeah, actually, I'll have to get

5:12 into that. That'll be my next thing, I

5:14 think. Yeah, that's for sure.

5:16 I went away this weekend with two of my girlfriends.

5:19 We. Yes.

5:21 So we're actually recording this on a Sunday.

5:22 So thank you again for being flexible.

5:25 And you know, but my girlfriends and I, instead of giving each

5:29 other presents for our fortieths, we decided to go away

5:32 for the weekend instead. And oh, it was so nice.

5:34 We just went away for one night, but it was sort of 24 hours of

5:40 absolute bliss. We went to wineries, we had

5:42 beautiful food, we had massages and facials, and it was just

5:46 really, really nice. I loved that.

5:48 I rang you on Friday at 11:30 and Yep, I was like, please tell

5:51 me. Wine in hand and you're like,

5:53 yeah, you know, very proud. I'm very proud I.

6:00 Think I was into my second tasting by that by that point.

6:03 That was great. So good.

6:06 Yeah. So that was really fun.

6:07 And I just felt like, you know, it was 24 hours or maybe a

6:11 little bit longer, but just to stop, we didn't have to think

6:14 about anyone else. We just did whatever we wanted

6:16 to do, didn't have to worry about kids or sports or, you

6:20 know, all that sort of stuff. So that was really nice.

6:22 Very good just to switch off and have a new time.

6:25 Yep. And actually have conversations

6:26 because normally when we catch up, I mean, sometimes we get to

6:29 catch up without the kids, like if we go out for dinner or

6:31 something, but it's still, you're on the clock, you've kind

6:33 of got then we've got work the next day, you know?

6:35 Yeah, We just had time. Yeah.

6:37 Unfettered time. It was beautiful.

6:38 It was really, really good. So much fun.

6:41 That's the best, Yeah. It gives you a refreshment to

6:44 get back into the swing of things this week.

6:47 Yep. Yep, Sure, sure, sure.

6:48 Well, Speaking of like, things that have very recently come

6:51 out. So I think because this

6:53 episode's gonna come out about a week after we've recorded it,

6:55 more may have played out in the media since.

6:58 But I have to say, Kylie McBride and Kimberly French, two of our

7:01 listeners, were right on top of this and sent us messages very,

7:05 very quickly when they heard, yes, about our mate.

7:09 No, he's not our mate. The absolute piece of shit that

7:13 is Alex Murdoch has been granted A retrial, but not for the

7:19 financial crime. That's a sealed deal.

7:21 That's a sealed deal. Which is a 40.

7:23 He's got 40 for that, I think. So regardless, fuck Hope.

7:26 He's probably gonna die in prison, yeah for that anyway.

7:29 But he's still trying because he's a fucking Dick to, well,

7:35 he's successfully, yes, his appeal has been successful

7:38 because of that fucking Becky Hill.

7:40 We talked about her in our episode.

7:42 She's got a lot to answer for. Yeah, I mean, she faced court

7:46 for her involvement in not only this case, but other cases that

7:49 she interfered with. Yeah, she only got like 300

7:51 hours of community service or something.

7:53 Like she never went to prison. I don't.

7:54 Think when she it's costing like, you know, the taxpayers

7:58 like in these court hearings, I mean I dare say millions of

8:01 dollars potentially like hundreds of thousands of dollars

8:04 minimum of like taxpayer money being wasted then to retry these

8:08 people because of that. This is what gets me right.

8:11 Why would they retry someone who's already got a 40 year

8:14 prison sentence? Yeah.

8:15 Like, well, I mean appeals or appeals if there is a legal

8:17 standing for it, they. Have to do it, yeah.

8:20 Otherwise, yeah, I guess making a bit of a mockery of the legal

8:25 system I guess in some. Way.

8:26 But yeah, I get them from a legal standpoint, we need to

8:30 they need to go through and do the right thing.

8:32 But then you just wish there was some kind of caveat that was

8:35 like, well, why are we wasting everyone's time and taxpayer

8:38 money to retry this guy who's probably going to die in prison

8:41 anyway? Yeah.

8:42 But I guess then it becomes like, then what?

8:44 It would be like, no one's convicted of that murder.

8:47 Then it's kind of the case doesn't get officially closed.

8:50 Yes. So then what are they going to

8:52 do? Reinvestigate?

8:53 Yeah. I mean, I guess they would have

8:54 to. It'd be a cold case.

8:56 That would be a yeah. When we maybe know who did it

9:00 like. Yeah.

9:02 Oh, we just haven't gone and done the trial for.

9:04 It no it's. Not it's a sticky 1, isn't it?

9:06 Because I guess really with these 40 years for the financial

9:09 stuff, what chances are there of him getting parole or already

9:13 with that like? No, it's 40 years of no, it's no

9:15 parole. Pretty sure.

9:16 Yeah, yeah, I'm pretty sure. I do remember that from like

9:18 doing the case, I think feel like it was really solid and

9:20 tired. 40 years and he's going to be dead before then.

9:23 So yeah. So at least that's.

9:26 Mainly that, but still like, I mean, I don't know, I guess from

9:29 perspective of like Maggie's family and you know, all that

9:32 sort of thing and you know, and Paul's extended family and

9:34 things like that, they should have closure on like the fact of

9:36 who did this because it's, I mean, but isn't there the other

9:41 stuff that's connected to him that I think needs further

9:43 investigation anyway? Well.

9:44 That's exactly right. There's certainly.

9:46 Other murders that he's been at least connected to.

9:48 Yeah, so maybe in the reinvestigation of this, the

9:51 retrying of this, maybe they'll bring in some new evidence and

9:54 really fuck him over. Because the reason they sort of

9:56 like with this case, it kind of threw him that there was the

10:00 pipe is going to join us for tonight, today's episode.

10:03 Sorry, everyone. Yeah, there was the there was

10:07 the fact that the, the video evidence of Paul at the the the

10:13 dog houses and things that came in during the trial.

10:16 That's right. Like he he kind of fumble over

10:19 all of that evidence and that really screwed him.

10:22 Whereas now when they go into another trial, they know that

10:24 evidence exists. They'll they'll spin it how they

10:26 want to spin it. Yeah, like it.

10:29 It could turn out. I don't know, maybe they'll find

10:32 some way to spin that. Yeah, well, like they've they've

10:34 had time now to pull it over and figure out what they're gonna

10:37 do. How they're gonna address it?

10:39 I guess we need to just keep an eye on on what unfolds and see.

10:43 I wonder when that have they actually given a date of when

10:45 it's going to be? I think it's like another 12

10:48 months away. It would it would have to be.

10:49 Yeah, I feel like it was still like I feel like it was mid next

10:52 year or something. After I read.

10:54 Something, Yeah, OK, yeah, don't quote me, but it was that

10:56 sounds. Like it was.

10:57 That sounds right. Yeah, so he'll sit in jail.

11:00 I mean, obviously this whole time anyway, not going anywhere.

11:02 No, that, well, that's the thing.

11:04 He's going to be in prison. Well, he has, yeah.

11:06 He's still serving that financial.

11:07 Crime, nothing else that's keeping him busy whilst he sits

11:09 and rots in jail. You know, like.

11:13 Seriously, I know, I know, podcasts are not a visual

11:17 medium, but. That was an eye roll.

11:18 The face. The face says it all.

11:22 All right, we have had quite a number of new patrons this week,

11:26 so a massive shout out to Raylene Latham, Winona Deb Rush,

11:31 Shona Porter who listens with her workmates.

11:34 So thank you, Shona for sharing us with your friends.

11:37 And to Jules, we've had another coffee bought for us by Miss

11:41 Tan. Another Yep.

11:43 Oh my gosh. Oh, she's.

11:44 Gorgeous. She's amazing.

11:46 Yeah. She said her granddaughter was

11:47 listening to the banter part of her episode.

11:49 Her granddaughter's a teenager. Yeah.

11:51 And said to her, oh, Grammy, I know why you love these too

11:54 much. They swear as much as you do.

11:59 I'm told her to fuck off. So thank you, Miss Tan, and

12:05 thank you to your granddaughter. Yeah.

12:07 And then I just had another shout out today because this

12:09 kind of made me chuckle a little bit.

12:10 But Alison Riddle, who's one of our patrons, she said that her

12:14 husband steals her other earpod and listens at the same time.

12:18 Listens to us at the same time. Doesn't admit to it, but no, he

12:20 likes. Shout out shout out to Alison

12:23 Riddle's husband. Oh God, it's like Peter watching

12:25 Real Housewives now. Hates it.

12:26 Hates it. What happens to always be

12:29 walking past when I'm watching it?

12:31 Knows all the characters names you know.

12:33 What he was, he was like that with Sex and the City, because I

12:36 watched Sex and the City so much like I I probably have watched

12:40 that through 10 times, probably in my.

12:42 Lifetime. Really.

12:43 I've never rewatched it. I've like seen all but never

12:46 rewatched. I've rewatched it all so many

12:48 times. And so Peter reckons

12:50 cumulatively over time, he's probably watched it all without

12:54 watching it at all. Yeah, Yeah.

12:56 Well. I'm sure he's in the background

12:57 watching every bit of it. Only only the sexy bits.

13:01 Oh, sure, sure, sure. All right.

13:05 So today's episode is a well, it's it's one that I definitely

13:12 remember. It's horrific in it's unfolding

13:16 and what happened and all of it, really.

13:21 But we're talking today about the Linn family murders in New

13:25 South Wales, in Sydney. And yeah, it's it's a case that,

13:32 look, I think it was incredibly violent.

13:34 It's definitely something that if this is not what you would

13:37 want to listen to, there's some really sort of, we're not going

13:40 to go into massively graphic detail, but there is a lot out

13:43 there. If you start looking at this

13:45 case. I know certainly there were

13:46 certain things, pictures that I just stumbled upon when I was

13:49 looking up this case during the week and I was like, whoa, I

13:52 didn't realize these were all made public or so.

13:54 Public, some of them are. Really, really gruesome.

13:57 So take care if if you are going to have a look at things after

14:01 listening to this episode. But basically the case is

14:06 surrounding the Linn family. So there was the mum and dad.

14:11 So Min, who went by the name of Norman Lin and he was actually

14:18 born in China. His parents, his parents also

14:24 were obviously born in China. And then he actually came here

14:29 and was doing some studying and he met his wife Lily here.

14:34 So her, I can't just her name was Yun Li Lin and she was over

14:41 here studying as well. They met and then they actually

14:44 moved back to China. They were married over in China

14:47 and I believe Brenda was their first child, was born in China.

14:50 Yeah. They then immigrated back to

14:52 Australia and eventually Norman's mum and dad also

14:57 immigrated and his sister and her husband.

15:00 So it was sort of like one of first generation Australians

15:04 really. And they were, well, the Lin

15:07 family were incredibly hard working, incredibly successful

15:14 because of how hard they worked. And you know, they were probably

15:17 the picture of, you know, that ideal immigrant family.

15:22 They wanted an opportunity for their children that they felt

15:25 they couldn't get when they lived in China.

15:28 And so they really wanted to make an incredible life and an

15:32 incredible home and everything for their for their children,

15:35 which is what they did. They absolutely did, yeah.

15:39 There was such, yeah, really good, upstanding members of of

15:43 the community. So when they first came over

15:45 here, I think, I think originally Norman just, he was

15:54 now, what did he do over in China?

15:57 I can't remember off the top of my head.

15:58 He did a he did a commerce degree.

16:00 I know when he was here. And that's how he and Lily met.

16:03 Yeah. And I can't actually remember

16:06 what his profession was over in China.

16:08 But when they moved here, they decided they opened a business

16:12 originally that they then sold and then they had an opportunity

16:16 to buy a news agency near their home.

16:19 So they lived in North Epping in New South Wales, and they lived

16:24 in a really lovely sort of family home, quite a large

16:28 family home. Yeah.

16:29 By this stage they actually also had a couple of investment

16:32 properties and one of which Norman's mum and dad lived in.

16:36 Yes. And they.

16:39 Yeah. So they ended up taking on the

16:41 ownership of this news agency at the North Epping Shopping

16:44 Centre. And they that meant that they

16:47 became quite well known within the community and they were

16:50 known as a very hard working family, really kind.

16:55 I think Lily did a lot of the sort of behind the counter kind

16:59 of work. People in the community say that

17:01 Lily, the success of the news agency was a lot because Lily

17:05 was such a lovely and kind person.

17:08 She wanted to get to know everybody.

17:10 She had made sort of personal connection with all of the

17:13 customers and that really sort of drove their business in a lot

17:17 of ways. And then Norman or Min, he was

17:21 sort of the backbone of the operation.

17:23 He was the one who was getting up at 4:00 in the morning and

17:26 delivering the papers and all of the stuff that you have to do as

17:30 a news agent. Yeah, the.

17:31 Kids. So they grew their business so

17:34 much that it was doing about $1,000,000 turnover each year.

17:36 I mean, that's incredible. For a small business.

17:39 That's huge. Yeah, Really.

17:40 Especially like this is we're talking in the early, so it's

17:43 like 2000 in the early 2. Thousands. 2000s.

17:46 Yeah. By the time they sort of got the

17:48 business to this point, so they were doing really, really well.

17:50 Yeah. And the kids were so by this

17:54 stage, so they had three children.

17:56 They had Brenda, and then then they had Henry and then Terry.

18:00 So Henry at this time, so I think he was 12, Terry was 9 and

18:07 Brenda was 1515. Yeah.

18:09 So yeah, they, the kids were, I'm pretty sure.

18:13 Did Brenda go to a Catholic girls school?

18:16 Yes. And she was.

18:18 She was described by her school principal as being incredibly

18:22 intelligent and very studious, but also kind of a little bit

18:27 mischievous sometimes and had really good friendships and very

18:31 successful in terms of her schooling.

18:33 Yeah. And she, he was actually

18:34 studying French as a language at the time at school.

18:38 And they had the opportunity to go over to New Caledonia for a

18:43 school excursion, I guess. Yeah, yeah, a school trip camp

18:46 and well, I guess you'd call it a school camp, but yeah, yeah,

18:49 very cool. Why don't you go and do do that?

18:50 That would be. Amazing class.

18:52 Yeah, I know. When I was in Year 9, the kids

18:55 who were doing French, was it you 9 or Year 10?

18:58 The kids doing French at my school went to New Caledonia.

19:00 Really. Yeah.

19:01 Yeah, it was. What an amazing opportunity.

19:04 Absolutely yeah, so cool yeah we should mention too.

19:06 So living with the family at this time was Lilies sister

19:10 Irene Lynn. So she was also living in the

19:12 family home with them. So she had immigrated out here

19:16 as well, so. She came over to study.

19:19 So she was actually here on a study visa, yes.

19:21 And then I think she she ended up then going on to do her

19:26 masters or something. Yeah and 39 at the time of when

19:30 we sort of enter the into this yeah, but she was yeah, she was

19:33 studying at the same time as as living with them and working in

19:37 the news agency as well. So part time, so yeah, yeah.

19:41 And the. Kids would help out here and

19:42 there as well. Apparently the boys would go and

19:43 roll newspapers and yeah and do bits and pieces around.

19:47 So it was a very much a family affair.

19:49 They were, they were a really close knit family so Min or

19:54 Normans mum and dad lived really close to them.

19:57 Well sorry, no they didn't. They lived about what, About a

20:00 50 minute drive away? Yeah, it was a fair distance,

20:03 Fair distance. But his sister Kathy and her

20:08 husband Robert and their son, yeah, lived literally 300 meters

20:13 away. There was a park.

20:14 There was basically a park in front of their house.

20:16 And they lived across the other side of the park.

20:18 Yeah. And so they were really

20:20 intertwined in one another's lives.

20:21 But as an extended family unit, they would get together every

20:25 single Friday night for family dinner.

20:27 It was a bit of a non negotiable, they'd go over to

20:31 Kathy and Normans mum and daddy's place.

20:35 They would always cook dinner and quite often the three

20:38 younger boys. So the so Kathy and Roberts son

20:41 and Terry and Henry would often stay the night with their

20:45 grandparents and then the grandparents the next day would

20:48 take them to their activities. Well, I'm, I'm guessing like

20:52 Saturday would be a really busy day at the news agency.

20:55 So yeah, that was something that they could kind of help out with

20:57 and and did that was just the kind of nature of their family

21:00 unit and how they operated. Yeah, I think Brenda was

21:03 probably a little bit older at this point and kind of a little

21:07 bit more self-sufficient, yeah, in terms of getting herself to

21:10 where she needed to be on the weekends and probably didn't

21:13 want to hang out with her with grandparents, little boys and

21:15 grandparents, so. She's very close with her

21:17 siblings though, too, with her younger brothers, and they had

21:19 very tight relationship. So yeah, even though she

21:22 probably didn't stay and do those things that she was, she

21:24 would still call them her best friends.

21:25 So yeah, really lovely family unit.

21:28 Yeah. Kathy, which is Min's sister and

21:31 her husband, which we call, he goes by the name Robert or she,

21:36 they moved out here and Robert, he was an ear, nose and throat

21:39 doctor back in China. But he found it very hard when

21:43 he moved, when they immigrated out to Australia to have that

21:46 qualification recognised here and had to do further training

21:50 and all these sorts of things that he didn't pass.

21:53 Yeah. So I read somewhere that there

21:55 was like a conversion course. It was like 12 months, which

21:58 that was the thing. I don't think he didn't pass

22:00 that. But then if he actually then

22:02 wanted to practice his specialty, there would have

22:05 anyway been another two or three years worth of supervised study

22:10 and and practice during that time.

22:12 So it it's, it's a big deal, absolutely.

22:14 But he didn't quite even get to that point.

22:16 No, so he, he wasn't, he didn't bring out, he brought that skill

22:19 with him, but wasn't able to then use it here in Australia.

22:22 So he was I guess a little bit at a loss what he would do from

22:25 there. So he ended up working in the

22:26 the family business as well. Well.

22:29 In this at the start when he first moved, he he actually

22:31 opened a restaurant. Sorry, he did, Yeah, he tried to

22:33 bring out two chefs from China as well, but unfortunately the

22:36 Australian government wouldn't pass their visas and things to

22:39 get out here. So the the restaurant was a

22:41 failure, unfortunately. Yeah, it didn't even last 12

22:44 months, I don't think. I think they I think they opened

22:46 it without. These two, yes, they did open

22:48 it. Yeah, it just, it didn't, didn't

22:50 get, I guess without the local chefs that he was hoping to

22:55 bring here, trading up new other chefs here in Australia wasn't

22:59 as easy as he thought, or so it didn't go as well as he would

23:02 have hoped. Yeah.

23:03 So I think he lost a fair bit of money in that venture.

23:07 And you know, I mean, I guess it's a bit of a kick in the guts

23:11 when when you try something like that and it doesn't work.

23:13 But I mean, I, I find it hard to go like I open an ear, nose and

23:16 throat doctor and now I'm gonna be a restaurateur.

23:18 That's they're not very different.

23:19 I was gonna say. They're not really transferable

23:21 skills. I can see, you know, commerce

23:23 for background kind of thing and going where I've, I've, I've

23:26 opened a news agency. Yeah.

23:27 And I think that's why Min was so successful, why Norman and

23:31 Lily were so successful, because Min had that background.

23:34 Yeah, you had a run and operate a business.

23:36 He was trained in Australia like he did his qualification most of

23:40 it here. So he knew how the all the

23:44 Australian. I don't know all the things you

23:47 need to know about running a business.

23:48 Like yeah, he was able to sort of hit the ground running and

23:52 and do what he needed to do. But because their business was

23:55 so successful and because they were so family oriented, he

23:59 didn't leave Robert high and dry.

24:01 He employed Robert and I think my the way that I understand it

24:08 from different people and the I'm talking about people in the

24:11 community who knew them. Robert, sorry.

24:15 Norman wanted to give Robert almost a sense of ownership in

24:19 the business, like he really respect, wanted Robert to feel

24:23 the respect that he felt as a business owner.

24:25 And so it wasn't like he was. Throwing him a bone and you know

24:29 that. Made him feel it.

24:30 And it wasn't like Norman would treat Robert like his

24:32 subordinate or anything like that, which comes up a little

24:35 bit later, but it's he really tried to make it collaborative.

24:39 And people in the community saw that and recognized that and,

24:44 and said that absolutely. It was something that, you know,

24:47 it wasn't like Norman went around and, you know, felt like

24:50 he was better than anyone else. Was also helping.

24:52 Working family was everything to these people so that, you know,

24:56 their extended family that we're here in Australia, that's their,

24:58 that was their core place to be. Yeah, there was comment from

25:02 Brenda that I read that where she said that in life they were

25:06 basically raised for the with this feeling of that there can

25:10 be bad people in the world, but you've always got family no

25:13 matter what. And so they were your people you

25:15 went to for all your love and support and, you know, and then

25:18 there's friends and things that you make, but you always come

25:20 back to family. So, you know, if that's how

25:23 you've been raised, I mean, that's how that what Min Norman,

25:26 you know, was instilling in his own daughter.

25:29 You know, that family is the most important thing.

25:31 I can't imagine him treating someone like that in a way, as

25:34 you say, as a subordinate, more unequal in that in their in that

25:37 family business. Mm hmm.

25:39 Yeah, yeah. So I guess we're probably now

25:42 coming to the day that changed everything for this family.

25:46 So on the evening of the 17th of July in 2009, which was a

25:52 Friday, they gathered for their usual Friday night dinner.

25:55 Or should. We say, so Brenda, at this

25:57 stage, she, she'd left, sorry, a couple of days before that

25:59 again, I think she'd gone on her trip to New Caledonia as we

26:03 mentioned earlier. So she was not in Australia at

26:05 this point. She was, yeah, flown out on a

26:09 flight, I believe. I'm gonna say the 15th of July.

26:12 I might be. Wrong.

26:13 I think that's right, actually. Yeah, that sounds right to me.

26:16 I think they. Flew out as a class.

26:18 She said that when she got to the airport, her friends were

26:20 all saying goodbye to their parents and crying.

26:23 And, you know, going for a whole week overseas and at that age,

26:25 that's huge. And I can't imagine being 15 and

26:28 going overseas, like, without family.

26:30 So that's, I mean, it's huge. But she said she didn't cry when

26:33 she was at the at the airport. She said goodbye to her parents.

26:36 She'd said to her mum that she loved her and that goodbye.

26:39 But she didn't. Her daddy took her to the

26:41 airport. She said they just didn't do

26:42 that. That's not what they would do as

26:44 a family. It was, you know, she was

26:46 respectful and, you know, lovingly said goodbye, but

26:49 without using those words. Yeah.

26:51 She actually said in an interview that she'd never

26:54 actually told her dad that out loud that she loved him.

26:58 Interesting. I mean, it's culturally, Yeah.

27:00 That's really, you know, that's that doesn't say that.

27:02 You know what I always say? Actually speak louder than

27:04 words. You know that they they would

27:06 have known that they loved each other.

27:08 Absolutely 100. But it was just something that

27:11 culturally, that's not what you say.

27:12 Yeah, globally, I I found Brenda's account of the day the

27:17 night before she left because I think that her flight left, you

27:19 know, they were leaving at like 4:00 in the morning or something

27:21 to go to the airport. I mean, even the fact that Min

27:24 got up at 4:00 in the morning to take her to the airport shows

27:26 how much he loves. Her exactly.

27:28 Exactly. Yeah.

27:29 But basically the night before, she was saying saying goodbye to

27:32 her mum, and they had a bit of a hug and a kiss and, yeah.

27:35 And then she went to say goodbye to her brothers.

27:38 But her auntie was in bed with, like, in her bedroom already

27:42 with the door shut. And she said, you know, with

27:45 respect to her privacy, Yeah, I just sort of let that go.

27:48 And, like, I was gonna see her in a week.

27:50 So it didn't really matter for a week.

27:51 It was fine. And she sort of went to bed,

27:54 woke up the next morning and, you know, thinking she'd see her

27:57 family a week later when she got back from New Caledonia.

28:00 So yeah, on this evening of the 17th of July in 2009, they've

28:05 done their family dinner. And it was a normal, normal

28:11 evening. By all accounts it.

28:12 Was, although apparently them, I think it was grandma who was

28:14 hassling the I think it was Henry particularly.

28:17 She was like coming, you know, wanted him to stay the night,

28:19 just him. Yeah.

28:20 And but he for some reason decided, no, he didn't want to

28:23 do that so. He was actually booked to play

28:26 badminton the next morning with Robert, with his uncle.

28:29 So they were both really keen badminton players.

28:33 And by the sounds of it, Henry, who was only 12 years old at the

28:35 time, was a really good badminton player.

28:38 Yeah, there there was sort of stories about him.

28:42 He wasn't great at ball sports, but he was really good at racket

28:45 sports. He was really good at table

28:46 tennis, badminton. Yeah.

28:48 They were his things. Mm Hmm.

28:50 Didn't like contact sports at all.

28:52 Yep. Fair.

28:52 Which is completely fair. Yeah.

28:54 And then so. Yeah.

28:56 And because he was so good, he could play against his uncle

29:00 Robert. Yeah, who was also apparently a

29:02 really good badminton player. And so they would often just go

29:06 the two of them to, to play a game.

29:08 So that was what was scheduled for the following morning,

29:11 right. And so Henry was like, oh, like,

29:13 it's too far away for them to get Uncle Robert to come pick me

29:16 up and take me back to Badminton.

29:19 So he went home with his mum and dad and his brother that night

29:23 back to their place. And Kathy, Robert and their son

29:27 went back to their home after the dinner.

29:30 Yes. The next morning, so we're now

29:33 talking on the 18th of July in 2009, it was so the news agency

29:40 was due to open, I think they're opened at 7:00 in the morning on

29:43 a Saturday. And there were people now, you

29:49 know, people in the community who would go and get their

29:52 newspaper first thing Saturday morning and probably go back

29:55 home and read it while they were drinking their coffee and eating

29:57 their brekkie. And on this particular morning,

30:01 people were showing up or going out the front to get their

30:05 newspapers and realizing they hadn't been delivered, trying to

30:08 call the shop, trying to call the store to see what had

30:10 happened. I mean, these things happen like

30:13 sometimes, you know, you might them houses get missed.

30:16 But apparently Norman never missed.

30:18 Yeah. Never missed a day.

30:20 Never. They never not opened.

30:22 You know, there was always somebody there.

30:24 Yeah. And so this made people really,

30:27 really concerned. Now, there were people in the

30:30 community who knew enough about this family that they knew how

30:34 to contact Kathy. Yeah.

30:36 And. Yeah, it says a lot that.

30:38 Says a lot, doesn't it? It was such a tight knit

30:40 community. I mean, I think they lived very

30:42 close to the newsagency. Anyway, yes.

30:44 So the family were sorry community members were able to

30:48 get in contact with Kathy and go, oh, this is really strange.

30:50 We've tried to call the, the, yeah, the family home and

30:55 haven't been able to get in, you know, find any, any information.

30:58 But yeah, the store's not open. And so Kathy immediately was

31:03 like, instead of now what? What do you think you would do?

31:06 Would you go to the store and open it and try and get in

31:08 contact or would you go over to their house?

31:12 I think because from what I remember, she sort of did like

31:14 the whole, oh, maybe he's sick, like, you know.

31:17 Yeah, but she had keys to the business.

31:19 I mean, I guess in that scenario, like in like complete,

31:23 oh God, I think I'd probably go to the business and open up.

31:25 Yeah, I, I, I've thought about it now and I don't, I don't, I

31:30 don't actually know what I would do to.

31:32 I would feel the immediacy of needing to open the business

31:34 because that was like, yeah, you know, apparently there were

31:36 stacks of newspapers that had been delivered overnight and

31:40 nothing had been done. So I would.

31:42 I think a drawer would go there and keep trying to call him or,

31:45 you know, and call. And be like, oh, if he's sick,

31:47 yeah, he's just slept in or something.

31:48 But surely get hold of like of of Lily or, you know, yeah.

31:52 Well, I think she did actually. I don't even know if she tried.

31:55 I think all she did was actually, I mean they lived 300

31:58 meters. Were we talking 2009, they would

31:59 have had mobile phones. So I reckon I'd go straight to

32:03 the store and be trying to but constantly trying to call

32:06 different phone numbers, like to try and get out someone or maybe

32:09 split up and say that's what I. Was thinking I'll go to the

32:11 house, you go and open the shop. You go open the shop, I'll go to

32:14 the house. Yeah, it's split up maybe.

32:16 Yeah. Interesting.

32:17 Interesting when you think about it, about that.

32:19 Yeah, anyway, so. But Kathy and Robert decide to

32:23 immediately go over to the Lynn family home and apparently the

32:27 door was unlocked. Yes, So they let themselves in.

32:30 I think they actually did have a key to the house House.

32:33 Whether they would have used it at that time or not doesn't

32:36 really matter. They've gone inside now

32:38 downstairs, everything looked absolutely fine, untouched, the

32:42 way the house always looked. So they've, they've thought,

32:45 well, Kathy has thought, I guess if they're unwell they'd still

32:48 be in bed. So she's gone upstairs.

32:51 I think she first opened. They walked up at the top of the

32:55 stairs there was immediately Mina and Lily's bedroom was off

32:58 to the right so she went. That was the first bedroom that

33:01 they were open the door for and I was opening that door.

33:05 All she saw was red. And you can.

33:10 You could, she said. She could see Lily's arm with a

33:14 watch. She thought could see her watch

33:15 on her her wrist, which was sort of out of the bed, and she just

33:20 immediately knew that Lily was not alive.

33:25 She didn't see anyone else in that room.

33:28 Not at that point at. That point she has just, I guess

33:33 in an absolute panic, she's then run to Henry and and Terry's

33:39 room. They shared a room and she's

33:42 gone in there and seen an equally horrific scene.

33:48 Robert's with her at this stage too and he is, he would did go

33:51 into that room then and he did, I believe touch the boys to

33:56 check if they were alive. Actually, conjecture around

33:59 this, we'll we'll talk about that in.

34:01 A minute, yeah, but he's there, yeah.

34:02 Yep, he's there. Yeah.

34:04 So with that, Lily dials 000. Did also check Irene's room too

34:12 as well and found again same similar scene.

34:15 Yeah, but then they ring 000. Well, well, Kathy does.

34:19 Kathy Rings 000. You heard that, 000?

34:21 Call. God, look, I've I've written

34:23 down here. Don't forget to talk about the

34:25 Triple O call. Kills me that.

34:26 Kills me. Fucking kills me.

34:29 He is awful. He's awful, but she's

34:32 frustrated. She's frustrating.

34:34 It is. It is the most frustrating phone

34:36 call you will probably ever listen to.

34:39 But I I think, OK, she is obviously obviously in extreme

34:45 distress. Yes, there's a bit of a language

34:48 barrier when I say that she's got a very thick accent.

34:51 When she's speaking in English, she's hysterical.

34:56 She does flick to Cantonese. When I mean look some with

35:01 English as their second language, I can completely

35:03 understand. In distress, you revert to your

35:05 complete. You know your first language.

35:07 When they 100 translate the call though, she only really she's

35:12 still not giving more information.

35:13 She's not, but she only speaks in Cantonese when she's talking

35:17 to Robert. Yes.

35:18 So in amongst all of this, the Triple O operator is, she

35:23 basically says something along the lines of I need help.

35:27 I think my brother's family is dead, basically.

35:29 Oh, like somebody's killed them. Somebody's killed her or

35:32 somebody's killed, yeah. And he's like, no, they've died.

35:36 And what makes you think that? And she's like, I don't know, I

35:40 don't know. There's blood and and I don't

35:43 know it's. Like it's like pulling like.

35:45 It's like pulling him. But then she's also trying to

35:47 manage Robert because at this point, she's speaking to him in

35:51 Cantonese. And when that's translated,

35:52 she's he's saying to her in the background, I'm going to go and

35:55 pick up your parents. Yeah.

35:58 And she's like, no, no, no, please don't leave me.

36:00 She doesn't know that the killer's not still in the house.

36:03 They haven't seen Min at this point.

36:05 They don't know. Where he is no and I.

36:08 Terrified she has just seen the most traumatic thing that anyone

36:12 could ever possibly see in. The translation, he actually

36:15 says to her, Robert says to her. I'm more scared than you are.

36:20 Sorry, what? What?

36:21 I don't understand. OK, even if that's true, you're

36:25 her fucking husband. You're her husband.

36:26 What why aren't you trying to let stay with her?

36:28 Say, I mean, if you're that scared that they could stop, say

36:30 say someone be still be in the home or whatever, and that it's

36:33 then remove both of you like from the home, not you like I'm

36:36 leaving, I'm leaving you here. That doesn't make any sense to

36:40 me. He leaves, yeah, he goes and

36:43 gets his car and he drives the 50 minutes to go and pick up.

36:46 Well, he's actually on the phone to the parents and he actually

36:49 says to them to get on the train, you need to get here.

36:52 And so he was actually telling them to get on the train to come

36:55 to them. He eventually then changes his

36:57 mind and decides, no, he'll drive out there to get them

37:00 because. But I think that that was all of

37:02 AI don't know. I mean, yeah, we'll get to it, I

37:04 guess. But yeah, yeah, it's it's very

37:08 weird. But she I can fully understand

37:11 the operator like he is badgering her.

37:14 Like, I mean, it's it's not great.

37:15 It's so but I understand so uncomfortable.

37:17 But I get it from the perspective of he's got he's got

37:20 on route people coming, he's got ambulance and police on their

37:23 way, but they don't know what they're walking into.

37:26 And so he needs to get information so that these people

37:28 aren't walking into potentially an axe murderer, you know, kind

37:30 of scenario. He they need to know is there

37:33 someone in the room in the in the house with a gun, a weapon,

37:36 you know, sorts before they go sending in more people into that

37:39 house. But he cannot get out of her

37:43 anything that makes sense. There is no information coming

37:46 out of her that is actually sensical.

37:48 Eventually towards the end of the call, when you can actually

37:52 hear the police sirens in in Kathy's phone, like you can hear

37:55 that the police are on their way.

37:57 Yeah, which I believe police got there before the ambulance did

38:02 they? You can hear she does start to

38:07 sort of calm down enough that she's more coherent.

38:10 Yeah. But then by that point, he's

38:12 like, oh, they should be at the door now.

38:14 And then the phone kind of cuts out.

38:16 Yeah. But then I can imagine that

38:17 would then just reignite a whole next.

38:21 I don't know, I I just think you listen to her and you listen to

38:24 how traumatized she is. It just breaks my fucking heart.

38:28 Like it's just, it's awful. It's.

38:33 So uncomfortable to hear so Roberts off picking up his in

38:38 laws to bring them to the house where they're well at this stage

38:42 we don't actually know where Min is.

38:45 But we still don't know where he is.

38:46 Yeah. You know where some of her I

38:48 don't. Think he'd left just yet because

38:50 I. Thought the police straight

38:51 away. Still there.

38:52 No, OK. Because the police arrived and

38:54 he was there. Oh.

38:55 Right. I thought he'd right.

38:57 OK. Yeah, OK.

38:59 Yeah. So for a bit later on, he is

39:01 there. And so when they the police

39:03 arrive and they walk in and she's explaining that this is

39:06 Lily in this room and there's the two boys in that room and

39:09 there's Irene in that room and we don't know where my brother

39:12 is, right? She then starts saying actually

39:16 look under the doona, look under the doona like.

39:19 And the police do then lift back the doona cover and they do

39:23 discover that Min is actually in the bed, but was hidden by the

39:28 doona cover. And so he was that's when she

39:30 found that her her brother was also murdered in that same room

39:35 because as she said afterwards, like it prior to that she was

39:38 there, there was thought of like was this a murder suicide

39:42 scenario? Was like, you know, was or was

39:43 this a murder? Sorry, not murder suicide.

39:45 What had he had the brother murdered all these people and

39:48 has he left men? Had men murdered men murdered

39:51 everyone and left, which I find that really interesting that she

39:55 thought that of her brother immediately in that aftermath of

40:00 walking into that, that that's where your brain went straight

40:02 away. Yeah, that's a fair.

40:04 Point I would probably more go to the fact of like.

40:07 Where is? Where is he?

40:08 How has he been taken by these people?

40:10 Yeah, you know what I mean? Like that's I, that's where my

40:12 thought would go of my brother, definitely hers immediately went

40:15 to has he murdered everybody and, and and taken off.

40:18 Yeah. That's curious.

40:19 Yeah, that's yeah. And that's really interesting.

40:22 Yeah. Oh, that makes me think

40:24 different things. And then?

40:25 So then when they even when they found him, there was still

40:27 question over whether it was a murder suicide scenario.

40:30 Was he? Did he still do this?

40:33 Or it was pretty quickly which? They quickly determined no,

40:36 there was no evidence of self-inflicted injuries.

40:40 No one, no one in the house had had self-inflicted injuries, so

40:43 therefore they were all murdered.

40:45 They weren't. No one had actually taken their

40:46 own life in this scenario. Yeah.

40:48 So yeah, but no, Robert was definitely there when they

40:51 found. So he must have left pretty soon

40:53 Pretty. Soon after that, he.

40:55 Left. OK OK yeah, so the police are

40:58 now looking, you know, they've obviously blocked off the house,

41:02 set up a crime scene and they're trying to figure out exactly

41:06 what's happened. They left the bodies in situ for

41:08 over a day. I think all they were trying to

41:10 figure out and. Processing all of that

41:12 information would be just huge. And just the amount like you,

41:15 some of the photos I've seen, you know, there's so much blood,

41:19 There's so much even. You can see that, especially

41:22 with the two boys in their room, there was a lot of a lot of

41:26 things that were displaced. I think those boys really did

41:29 put up a massive fight. Well, that's what was determined

41:32 in the autopsy and things that the boys actually so when we get

41:35 to so that Lily, Lily and Min they found were murdered in

41:38 their sleep, whereas yeah, the boys they determined actually

41:42 fought their attacker. Yeah, So what they think

41:45 happened is that maybe the boys woke up while their mum and dad

41:48 were being murdered. Potentially Iran as well, so.

41:52 Yeah, yeah, because she had some defensive wounds as well, didn't

41:55 she? Yeah, on her arms.

41:56 So yeah, obviously in processing this scene, they're trying to

42:00 figure out exactly what happened.

42:01 But the immediate, I guess thought as well was for Brenda

42:05 because Brendan overseas. Well, even having said that,

42:09 what the police had to determine too was that her bedroom door

42:12 had never even been opened. Yeah, so there was blood.

42:15 There were footprints all throughout, sort of basically

42:18 from room to room. There were the door handles to

42:21 Henry and Terry's room and the door handle to Auntie, the

42:27 Irene's room. They both had blood on them, so

42:30 they could see that somebody with a bloody handprint had

42:32 opened those two doors. Brenda's bedroom was skipped

42:36 over. So you, they, the killer would

42:37 have had to have walked past Brenda's bedroom door to get to

42:42 Irene's bedroom door. And it was never even open.

42:45 There was not a bloody shoe print or footprint in there.

42:48 No. So what?

42:50 The way that Brenda tells this story, again, incredibly

42:53 heartbreaking, but I think it's a sign of the times because she

42:55 actually found out about this on Facebook.

42:57 Which is just terrible. It's just awful.

43:00 Like I mean. Somebody who she was on the trip

43:02 with sent her a photo. I can't believe they did this.

43:05 I just can't believe it either. But dumb 14 year olds like just

43:10 obviously not thinking things through.

43:12 So it was a news article that had a photo of her house and it

43:15 was like family dead or something like that something.

43:17 And then within that time, the principal of the school that she

43:21 went to had been notified of the deaths.

43:25 She'd contacted the teacher in charge of Renew Caledonia and

43:28 they organized for her to be put on the next plane back to

43:31 Australia with a with a chaperone from the school.

43:35 And then when Brenda got back to into the airport in Sydney, her

43:40 auntie, uncle and cousin, along with the police were waiting for

43:44 her. And they took her immediately

43:45 into an interview room to tell her what had happened, for, you

43:49 know, to tell her face to face what had happened.

43:52 And she said as soon as she saw her auntie at the airport, she

43:56 said as soon as she saw the look on her face, she knew that it

43:58 was all real. Like, up until then, she didn't

44:00 quite believe it. Of course you'd be in denial.

44:03 Absolutely. Yeah.

44:03 No. Surely something else has

44:05 happened. Well, probably the she got like

44:07 one Facebook message like come through of like this thing and

44:09 she kind of was like, is this like a sick joke kind of thing?

44:12 And then a second one came through and she was like, wait,

44:15 what's going on here? But yeah, still didn't really.

44:18 It wasn't until I think that people like the teachers came

44:22 and spoke to her that she was like, this is real.

44:24 But even then, it wasn't real real.

44:26 Yeah, until she got. Oh, you'd been.

44:27 Shrunk yeah yeah yeah I'll just how how awful for her to find

44:33 out that way I. Absolutely horrific.

44:36 The only thing that kind of makes me think, thank God she

44:40 was sharing a room with her best friend at the time.

44:42 And so her friend was with her throughout this whole thing.

44:46 And I just think, oh, thank goodness she wasn't alone.

44:49 Like, I just feel like that would have just made it that

44:50 little bit worse. I mean an already horrific

44:53 situation. So far away too, would be just.

44:56 It would be, it would be awful. Like I, I know when I was

44:59 younger and sort of travelling around overseas and like my

45:03 Peter and I went on a a big trip when we were in our 20s.

45:06 We went to Europe, and I remember thinking at the time

45:08 like, what would happen if something happened?

45:11 Like I'm so far away. And I thought, I'm sure everyone

45:14 thinks that when they travel. Yeah, but I'm so far away to

45:17 take me a day or more to get back home.

45:19 Absolutely. I don't know.

45:21 You've you've always got that thought in the back of your

45:23 mind. And then, yeah, poor Brenda.

45:26 What she then ended up coming back to was that her entire

45:29 family, everyone she lived. Lived with.

45:32 Yeah. Had been annihilated.

45:33 Yeah, that's just I cut it's it's unfathomable.

45:37 Absolutely. And at 15, how do you, how do

45:42 you do that? Like that is just absolutely

45:45 horrendous. What's terrible is that the

45:47 worst of it's, I mean, not over, you know, no.

45:51 Well, the, the police ended up fairly early on setting up

45:54 strike force in Auburn to investigate these killings

45:58 because as you said, they very quickly determined that it was

46:02 they were all homicides That and they needed to figure out what

46:07 had happened and why it happened and who'd done it.

46:10 Obviously, this was just such a, such an awful thing.

46:14 Now Brenda was placed in the care of her auntie and uncle.

46:18 It was decided that they would take over her care because her

46:21 grandparents live too far away from school.

46:23 And I guess her auntie and uncle were sort of, you know, close to

46:27 the age of her parents and probably maybe a little bit more

46:29 capable. Brenda said that at the time,

46:32 though, she actually wanted to move back into her family home.

46:35 She wanted to live there. She wanted to feel connected or

46:38 close or I can. Understand that.

46:40 But it sort of it, it didn't eventuate that way.

46:44 She ended up moving in with her auntie and uncle and her cousin.

46:47 She continued attending the same school.

46:50 She said her auntie did everything for her in terms of

46:55 making her school lunches, taking her to all of her

46:58 extracurricular activities and really trying to support her

47:01 while also grieving the loss of her brother and, you know, the

47:06 extended family. And then also trying to support

47:09 her parents because Min's parents and Kathy's parents,

47:14 they broke down over this. They had they had zero capacity

47:19 to take on care for Brenda, in my opinion.

47:21 Oh, yeah, they they could even if they wanted to.

47:24 I don't think they could have taken that on this.

47:26 No, broke them. I know that there was like

47:28 people who like, there was a public funeral for the the

47:31 deceased in this. And it was commented on that the

47:35 way that her grandparents were so in such utter grief that,

47:41 yeah, they were not capable of like, even understanding that

47:45 there's a young girl here who potentially needs your care.

47:49 Like they, they weren't really taking care of Brenda in that

47:53 they were worrying about themselves and their own grief,

47:56 which I'm not. I'm not judging on them, no.

47:58 But yeah, they were in a state of absolute distraught.

48:02 I just look at that and I think thank God for Kathy because she

48:05 really did stand up in that situation and she also then she

48:09 and Robert continued to operate the business.

48:12 And well, so in that with their passing, with Min's passing,

48:17 all, everything that he legally owned went straight to Brenda,

48:22 even though she's only 15. His will was written in the way

48:25 that it would all go on, go on to his kids.

48:27 So yeah, with the last remaining heir being Brenda, that all went

48:31 to her. So she's only 15, though, she

48:33 can't take on all of those things.

48:35 So, yeah, Robert stepped in as sort of executor of all of that,

48:40 I guess you call it. And, you know, he was able to

48:42 then take all those things until she was going to be of an age

48:45 where she could, you know, take over those those.

48:47 Roles or decide what she wanted to do because I think she was

48:50 even too young to sell the business like they she couldn't

48:54 have done that I don't think there was some loophole there

48:57 where she had to wait regardless I'm not quite sure the there's.

49:00 Certainly other things he was able to sell though and stuff.

49:03 So, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

49:04 Not sure what to what extent he had control control over things,

49:08 but yeah, he certainly was. Yeah, basically put in that role

49:11 of looking out for her financials and things in that.

49:16 Well, I mean, I guess they maintained her life in that

49:18 they, she kept going to the same school and kept, you know,

49:21 stayed in the same extracurricular activities and

49:24 yeah, they were feeding her and housing her and clothing her and

49:26 all of that sort of stuff. So, and I'm, I'm sure all of

49:29 that money came out of the estate, but yeah, you know,

49:31 they, they were facilitating that.

49:33 Yeah, definitely. This poor girl.

49:35 Like can you even imagine taking on a 15 year old girl into your

49:39 home who had gone through such a trauma?

49:41 I I actually can't imagine how you would cope as your own

49:46 family unit taking something. 15 year old girl without all that

49:49 would be hard work. Yeah.

49:52 Yeah. No, I can only imagine that that

49:54 would be absolutely so hard. Yeah.

49:56 But they're like, they're looking at this scene then of

50:00 like these five dead people. Like basically the police sort

50:05 of determined that there was some interesting elements to

50:08 this in that Brenda's room was untouched.

50:12 The person who entered the home need didn't break and enter.

50:15 They managed to, they potentially used a key or were

50:18 welcomed into the home somehow, you know, like so there was

50:22 elements to this that made that it was potentially someone that

50:25 was known to the family. Yeah.

50:27 So the police determined that they're well, and the coroner

50:30 determined that the time of death was somewhere between 2:00

50:32 AM and 5:00 AM. So that made the police think

50:35 that whoever gained entry had a key.

50:38 Yeah, they weren't let into the home, but they were able to

50:42 access the. Fact that the majority of the

50:44 people who were murdered were murdered in their sleep too.

50:47 That there wasn't like an adult who had opened the door and let

50:49 this person in. They were in their beds still,

50:51 so no one had come out of their bedrooms and opened the door.

50:54 So this person was known to the family and that they had a key,

50:58 but they also knew that Brenda wasn't home.

51:00 Now what what, what what was the reasoning behind?

51:04 Like, was that just, you know, well, they knew she wasn't there

51:06 and then that's fine. Or do they know she wasn't there

51:09 and was a good reason like that they didn't want her to be

51:13 killed? In this Questions to be answered

51:18 the the brutality of the murders was very interesting to the

51:21 police as well. And also the fact that Min was

51:23 covered up, yeah, that was that was definitely something the

51:26 police looked into in terms of like a profile for the the

51:30 killer and what that meant, yes, being that he was the only one

51:33 who was covered. Yes, post mortem, yeah.

51:37 He, they, they decided the murder weapon was some sort of

51:40 hammer of some sort, which I mean to not get too into it, but

51:47 these people were brutally murdered, like with a yeah, with

51:49 a hammer attacked. They were yes.

51:53 And so it was very intense, very hands on and very close.

51:59 Like as in, you know, shooting someone with a whip with a gun

52:02 or something at a distance is very different to shooting

52:04 someone up close. Same with, you know, using a

52:07 hammer or asphyxiating somebody that's contact you're very close

52:10 up with that person, which is, you know, it, it says a lot

52:14 about I think the personality or the relationship that that

52:18 person has and then the also the emotion behind this attack.

52:22 Definitely. It was very personal and the,

52:25 you know, the manner of death and the reason, like once they

52:28 found out that they'd been asphyxiated as well as beaten.

52:31 Like the boys in particular, I think because they were upright

52:35 and moving around and obviously trying to figure out what was

52:37 going on. Their deaths were particularly

52:41 brutal. And I believe Terry, the younger

52:43 boy sustained something like 12 blows to his head with the

52:48 hammer. And then with the hammer like

52:50 object, they don't know that it was a hammer.

52:53 And he was also then asphyxiated, you know, just to

52:58 really make sure that that he was dead, I think in the end of

53:01 it. And so, yeah, you're right.

53:04 The police are like, OK, well, this is this is has the signs of

53:07 somebody who really knew these people.

53:10 There was obviously something, a personal vendetta here.

53:13 And this looks like it was payback for something or it was

53:17 definitely emotionally motivated.

53:19 Yeah. So obviously when this all first

53:23 happened, they immediately, of course, interviewed Robert and

53:26 Kathy. They Kathy conducted her

53:30 interview, her first interview with the police without an

53:33 interpreter present. Yeah, Robert decided he wanted

53:36 an interpreter because he felt that he could speak more freely

53:39 in Cantonese. So I find that interview really,

53:44 you can, you can hear them if you, if you want to.

53:46 I find that interview. So disjointed to listen to and

53:53 you can definitely tell things get lost in translation because

53:56 questions that are asked, the answers that come back don't

54:01 quite match in a lot of instances.

54:03 And they're the things that I want to know about.

54:05 They're the things that if you know, obviously the police are

54:07 asking these questions for a reason.

54:09 They want to know the the answer things like, well, did you go

54:14 and touch such and such? And in some sometimes he's like,

54:18 oh, I don't remember. Yeah.

54:20 Which, OK, I get it. In a traumatic situation, you

54:22 may not remember. But then later on in the same

54:26 interview, they asked him the question in a bit of a different

54:28 way. And he's like, well, no, I told,

54:31 I told Kathy not to go anywhere near them and not to touch them

54:34 because they were they were clearly dead and I didn't.

54:36 So hold on. Wait, did you go in there and

54:38 touch them or didn't you, Or did you hold Kathy back from going

54:41 in there? Or this is in particular, they

54:43 were talking about the boys at this time.

54:45 And I'm like, well, hold on, wait a minute.

54:47 It's it's like, I don't know. There was there was just some

54:50 concoction of things going on. And then I think the language

54:54 that the translating back and forth, I think ship was getting

54:57 lost amongst all. Of that because the other thing

54:59 where I think I don't know it's the right time to bring it up or

55:01 not, but like the fact that he is medically trained, I find

55:07 interesting whether or not he did touch the bodies.

55:09 Because I would have thought that as a medically trained

55:11 person, you would try to touch the bodies to assess whether or

55:15 not they were dead or whether or not he could intervene medically

55:19 to assist them. I could not agree more, and this

55:22 is what gets me about the fact that the way Kathy describes it

55:28 in her first statement is that Robert was always behind her.

55:34 Yeah, like he followed her in and instead of then going, yes,

55:38 I'm a medical trained professional and going in and

55:41 going, you stay out here. Like I get, I get your

55:44 significant other not wanting you, not wanting them to see

55:46 things. You wouldn't wanna see things.

55:49 But your training, you think would give way to that and you'd

55:52 be like, fuck, what can I do here?

55:54 Yeah, let me go and see if I can find a pulse.

55:56 Sure. He didn't know.

55:57 No, you don't know. You look at the blood and you

55:59 go, yeah, they're probably dead. But as a medical person, you

56:02 need to like have that determined.

56:03 Like, I mean, yeah, I, I would, I can't imagine them as comic,

56:06 not him not going and just literally using two fingers and

56:09 tech checking for a pulse. Like surely that would be a

56:13 fairly simple thing for him to do to kind of go, Oh my God,

56:15 there is a faint pulse here. Well, like, quick, let's try and

56:19 intervene, do something or No, they are absolutely dead.

56:22 And this is, this is shared. Like we've got.

56:24 There's nothing I can do to help that.

56:27 Yeah. Which then you think would also

56:28 elicit a certain type of response if that was the case.

56:31 Yeah. None of that actually took.

56:33 Place no, which I'm not saying that suggesting that anyone was

56:37 alive at this point I I do believe they were all dead at

56:40 that point they they were but you know but still you so they

56:42 were if someone who had never been in that scene would.

56:45 Check. I think they were found at

56:47 around 9:00 AM and the latest the coroner puts their death is

56:51 5:00 AM. So they were definitely all

56:54 yeah, deceased by then, but he didn't know that.

56:58 No. Well, well, again.

57:00 So despite the fact that the police were doing their best to

57:08 try and figure out what was going on, the investigation was,

57:13 I guess, slow going in a lot of ways.

57:15 But the more they looked into it, the more the net kind of

57:19 started to tighten around Robert.

57:23 So in sort of May of 2010, the police were able to obtain a

57:30 search warrant for Robert and Kathy's house.

57:34 Now, a lot of this is because he had been interviewed several

57:37 times at this point, being that he was the the one to discover

57:42 the bodies. There were anomalies in his

57:43 statements. They wanted to clarify things.

57:47 There's also been some interesting interactions that

57:50 had been noted. Definitely.

57:52 Particularly between Brenda and him, where he had like verbally

57:56 abused Brenda in front of people.

57:59 People which I find really interesting, in particular in

58:02 front of the. The principal.

58:04 The school principal. She had noted she she was

58:07 actually someone who like was like sort of speaking to the

58:10 police, sort of saying, you know, when they touched base

58:12 around how things were going and what people were around and what

58:14 that. She had also been interviewed at

58:15 one point and she had said that she just felt it uncomfortable

58:19 the relationship between Robert and Brenda, but she.

58:23 Said to the police, I think he's the murderer that like very,

58:27 very early, very early. On yeah, she she literally from

58:30 I think it was the funeral watch some interactions between Brenda

58:34 and and Robert and and just that's when she was like, no, I

58:37 think it's that's that it's him, which is very interesting, very

58:41 interesting. But again, I mean as police

58:43 officers, they, they might have may have fully agreed with her

58:47 at that point. I I think they probably did, but

58:51 they have to find evidence to that's.

58:53 Right. And they need cause to be able

58:55 to get a search warrant as well, so.

58:57 Well, that's, and this is the thing where they, they, I think

59:00 they had that information and kind of, they immediately went

59:02 like, right, is, is Brenda safe knowing, thinking that this

59:06 could be someone who did murder the rest of her family?

59:09 Is she safe now? They apparently assessed the

59:12 situation and decided that she was because Kathy was in the

59:15 home. I, I question all of this and I,

59:20 again, I understand they need to gather evidence and things.

59:22 You don't want to tip someone off that you're looking at them,

59:25 you know, prior to you really wanting them to know that you're

59:27 looking at them. But this was a 15 year old girl

59:30 in a very vulnerable situation, and they left her in that

59:33 scenario and just sort of went well, yeah, we're keeping an eye

59:37 on it. Wait, that's fine.

59:39 Yeah, I find that really hard. Yeah.

59:43 To get my head around. I do too.

59:45 I it's. It's a very interesting thing.

59:47 But then Brenda has said that she took comfort in being in

59:53 that home because. On a number of occasions that

59:56 the police did speak to her and asked her how she was going and

59:58 check in with them. And was she happy there?

1:00:00 And. She she kept saying that she

1:00:01 wanted to be there with them and she was with family.

1:00:03 And as I said earlier, she'd been raised.

1:00:06 Upbringing. To be like you, you'd be with

1:00:09 family, and that family was where safety was.

1:00:12 Yeah, Yep, absolutely. Unfortunately, that's not.

1:00:16 Necessarily the case. So we're talking now as I was

1:00:20 saying in May of 2010 now the police were able to obtain a

1:00:26 search warrant for Robert and Kathy's house and boy, oh boy,

1:00:30 did they turn that place inside out.

1:00:32 Oh my God. So they, they took so much stuff

1:00:39 that they thought would potentially be evidence they

1:00:42 took, I'm talking they went forensically through so much of

1:00:46 the house. They went through their books.

1:00:48 They went through their when I mean like their financials, they

1:00:51 were sort of looking at where they were sitting, how things

1:00:53 were happening, how money was exchanging from like how Min was

1:00:58 paying Robert. They got really granular in

1:01:01 terms of all of that sort of stuff and and really kind of set

1:01:05 the scene for exactly what was happening in the lead up to, to

1:01:09 all of this. And what they found was a stain

1:01:14 on the garage floor. Now they didn't know what this

1:01:17 stain was. It was a dark coloured stain.

1:01:19 It was I guess anomaly in the floor in that the rest of the

1:01:24 floor didn't have a stain. So they've they've looked at

1:01:27 that. They've named it Stain 91, which

1:01:29 says to me there were at least 90 other stains.

1:01:31 Well, they around the house I think, I think in general in the

1:01:34 whole investigation, because I've actually heard an interview

1:01:36 with the forensic biologist who found the stain OK.

1:01:40 And she said that they literally that garage, they had literally

1:01:43 gone from top to bottom of that garage and.

1:01:44 Yeah. Did you see how much?

1:01:46 It was in that garage thing. There was Oh my God, there was

1:01:48 like no floor space like of sort of a pathway through really

1:01:52 anyway, there was so much stuff that they had done all of that

1:01:54 and then they left with the floor that she said they found

1:01:57 five stains in total on the floor, But this was this

1:02:02 particular one became stain 91 was the one that actually that

1:02:06 when they because The thing is they what they do at this the

1:02:10 crime scene and to test it to kind of go, Oh, this is

1:02:12 something because there was probably plenty of stains on the

1:02:14 floor. But whether or not it was

1:02:15 something related to you go could be blood, could be blood

1:02:18 or could be something related to a crime.

1:02:20 They can do minor tests to be able to determine that at the

1:02:23 time as to whether or not they can do.

1:02:25 Presumptive tests, yeah. Yeah.

1:02:26 So there were five that were found that were potentially

1:02:29 something taken to the lab was stain 91 that they found to have

1:02:34 DNA, a mixture of DNA within it. But as she was saying to me now

1:02:41 you probably understand this stuff far more than I do, that

1:02:44 there was this. They didn't do other testing

1:02:47 prior. You can do pre testing to kind

1:02:50 of determine is it blood? Is it yeah, saliva.

1:02:52 Is it, you know, kind of what is it?

1:02:54 What kind of bottle of bodily fluid is it?

1:02:55 Yeah, they decided to not do that testing because that would

1:02:58 waste the minimal such that they had.

1:03:02 So then they so they jumped straight to doing the DNA

1:03:05 testing. Mm Hmm.

1:03:06 Because they had so little. Yeah, it was a tiny scan.

1:03:09 Yeah. So they they found within this

1:03:11 tiny little like when she said it is a it was a stain.

1:03:14 It was a a scuff, kind of. It literally looks like a scuff.

1:03:18 Yeah, she said. It's not.

1:03:19 It wasn't a droplet. It wasn't like it had dropped

1:03:21 off, you know, a little bit of blooded drops from somewhere.

1:03:23 Like I'm not saying it was blood because they don't know, but it

1:03:26 wasn't a drop or anything. It was a scuff.

1:03:27 Like, I mean, in my mind I'm picturing like say something

1:03:30 that was on the bottom of someone's shoe.

1:03:32 And it's kind of like wiped off. It's wiped off like it's.

1:03:35 So I've just got a picture of it here.

1:03:37 It's basically it's like half a centimetre.

1:03:40 It's like half a centimetre wide by maybe 1 1/2 centimetres long.

1:03:44 Like it is tiny. Yes, but in that, in that sample

1:03:49 there was a mixture of five people's DNA, all of being the

1:03:54 victims who were in the house, not in Robert's house, in Min

1:04:01 Lin's house. Yep, Min and Lily's house, Yeah,

1:04:06 so that says a lot. Doesn't it?

1:04:08 Now the other bit of evidence that they found, also linking

1:04:11 Robert was the fact that their footprints that they found in

1:04:14 the house, there was 24 bloody footprints throughout the home.

1:04:18 Now they were from a size 10 men's shoes. 9.

1:04:22 Was it size 9? So it just so happened that

1:04:25 Robert also wears the same size shoe, which I mean, many people

1:04:29 do. That doesn't mean he's the

1:04:31 murderer, But it was determined that it was an ASICS, a

1:04:34 particular brand of ASICS that had been discontinued, and he

1:04:39 happened to own a pair of that. Now, just real, just really

1:04:42 quickly before you get to that. Sorry.

1:04:44 Yeah. When the police were able to get

1:04:45 the search warrant for the house, they were also allowed to

1:04:48 get a warrant to place a listening device and a recording

1:04:51 device in the G family home. So in Robert and Kathy's home.

1:04:57 Go on. That's very important.

1:04:59 Sorry. Go on.

1:05:00 Yes, no. So yeah, they'd already

1:05:02 determined that he he had the same size foot.

1:05:05 And they were then able to put these listing devices and

1:05:09 cameras within the house, which obviously Robert and Kathy

1:05:11 didn't know were there. As much as they've got a warrant

1:05:15 for them, they don't that the residents were not aware of them

1:05:17 being put there. So there was a particular

1:05:20 footage that was found where in the very background of the

1:05:24 video, so you can see that Robert is doing something and

1:05:28 they, you know, you have to sort of enhance it and handset to try

1:05:30 to sort of look to see what he's doing.

1:05:33 And it turns out that what he was doing was cutting up a

1:05:37 shoebox and an ASIC shoebox, yes, and getting it all wet and

1:05:44 everything and getting rid of it.

1:05:46 He was. Flushing it down the toilet,

1:05:48 Yeah. I mean, why?

1:05:49 To block your toilet, Yeah. But yeah, so the police, they

1:05:53 and he was saying to Kathy at the time, they were, they were

1:05:56 talking, yes, in Cantonese. So she was well aware she could

1:06:00 see him doing this and he was saying, well, they're just gonna

1:06:05 use this basically against me. Mm Hmm.

1:06:09 OK. Yep.

1:06:11 Well, if you've got nothing to hide, you've got nothing to

1:06:13 hide. But what that's?

1:06:14 Very coincidental that you want. To hear, you know, he's cutting

1:06:17 up this box into these tiny little pieces and then all you

1:06:20 can hear in the background is flush, flush, fill up, flush,

1:06:24 fill up, flush, flush. It took a lot to get rid of a

1:06:27 box. By the way, if you ever want to

1:06:28 flush a box, takes a lot. Of place, why would you want to

1:06:31 flush? Just burn it or something, yes?

1:06:34 Why are? You putting it down your toilet?

1:06:35 Oh my God, yes, why not burn it? Yeah, then there'll be no

1:06:39 evidence, like there's nothing. Left.

1:06:40 Oh, and you're. Not clogging your toilet?

1:06:43 No. Again, we don't want to give

1:06:44 anyone idea. I don't.

1:06:46 Oh my God. Yeah.

1:06:47 So yeah, between they've got this bit of evidence, a lot of

1:06:52 circumstantial evidence then too on top of that in terms of, you

1:06:56 know, a jealousy over the success that men and his family

1:07:00 had with news agency and that Robert had not had that kind of

1:07:05 success here in Australia. So yeah, a lot of bits and

1:07:08 pieces that got put together that they did end up arresting

1:07:11 him on the 5th of May 2011. Two years, almost two years Now.

1:07:17 I just want to throw in here with that stain 91 and not

1:07:19 something else. This forensic biologist brought

1:07:21 up that yeah. So it took two years for them to

1:07:24 find that stain. And on that day she arrived at

1:07:26 that house to start that process of doing that, the executing

1:07:32 that warrant basically. OK.

1:07:34 And what she, she, when she arrived, she realized that she'd

1:07:36 actually been in the vicinity 2 years earlier on this case

1:07:41 because the next door neighbor had called the police and said

1:07:47 with the whole of the event of everything that was going on

1:07:50 with the Lynn family, she believed that there was a blood

1:07:55 stain on her fence. Oh, so the police went, So she

1:08:00 had gone out there and to investigate this and check the

1:08:03 fence of this house and they didn't find anything that was

1:08:07 blood. But obviously this neighbor had

1:08:10 put a few things together and gone.

1:08:13 I'm suspicious of the man who lives next door.

1:08:16 And could that stuff on my fence be blood?

1:08:18 Wow. So does that tell you that there

1:08:20 were people who were already thinking?

1:08:22 I mean, if the principal was thinking that at that point, the

1:08:25 next door neighbors kind of going seems a bit SARS seems

1:08:28 SARS this guy. And you know, yeah, OK, it

1:08:30 turned out to not be blood, but it just makes me think that

1:08:33 people didn't trust this guy already.

1:08:35 Agreed. I mean, I think the principal

1:08:37 has a really good foundation for why she thinks that, like the

1:08:42 fact that he treated Brenda in front of other people and this

1:08:46 is what she was saying. It was so uncomfortable the way

1:08:48 he treated her. And then she was like, and

1:08:50 that's in front of us. Imagine how it was going on in

1:08:53 that home. Wow.

1:08:55 To a traumatized 15 year old. Yeah.

1:08:58 Just really quickly as well. I forgot to mention before the

1:09:01 police suspect. Oh, actually, no.

1:09:04 I'll get. I'll get into that in a minute.

1:09:06 No, sorry. No.

1:09:07 Go. Good.

1:09:09 So obviously, yeah, Robert is arrested.

1:09:13 He is charged with five counts of murder at this point.

1:09:16 So this is 2011 this unfortunately then I guess the

1:09:22 police are still in gathering more evidence.

1:09:24 As much as they have charged him and put him in jail, they still

1:09:26 want more time to completely investigate this.

1:09:29 So it means that there is quite a delay between the him being

1:09:32 arrested and then getting to trial bloody 18 months.

1:09:37 It took ages. So we're looking at 2014 before

1:09:40 a a date was set for the trial. Now in the process of getting to

1:09:44 that trial date, they were sort of they were about to start the

1:09:47 trial when Brenda decides that it's time, I guess, or found the

1:09:54 right person asked the right question.

1:09:56 I don't know what made her come to this conclusion that this was

1:10:00 the time to say this, but when she was being interviewed at a

1:10:04 point with one of the lawyers, she did confess that or not

1:10:09 disclose. I shouldn't say confess.

1:10:11 That's not the wrong way. She's disclosed that Robert had

1:10:14 been sexually abusing her from before her family was well

1:10:20 before her family were murdered. So this is key evidence again,

1:10:25 of like motive to all of this. It just absolutely is horrific.

1:10:34 So they can that trial. Just when you think a piece of

1:10:37 shit can't be more of a piece of shit for murdering 5 people,

1:10:40 yeah, he's then also abusing. His 15 year old and well, and

1:10:44 younger, much younger. Yeah, niece, niece, which is

1:10:48 just. As if she hadn't been through

1:10:50 enough already. Yeah.

1:10:51 God, yeah. So that, so yeah, that trial

1:10:53 then is set aside. It's aborted.

1:10:57 So they they basically dismissed the jury.

1:10:59 They weren't going to reconvene that jury.

1:11:00 They had to actually start a. Whole start all over again

1:11:03 because this was clearly stuff they needed, they wanted to put

1:11:05 into the trial, which they needed to have time to, you

1:11:08 know, share that information with the other side, all those

1:11:11 sorts of things. You can't just sort of, you

1:11:13 know, bring stuff out at random. Yeah.

1:11:14 So so they started again another trial in 2014.

1:11:18 Again, the second trial was started but again had to be

1:11:22 aborted due to the judge falling.

1:11:25 I'll which wouldn't you just know it like bloody hell, it's

1:11:28 just horrific. So they got set for another

1:11:32 trial in 2015. So for this is the third trial.

1:11:37 Now this trial does go ahead in full.

1:11:42 Brenda's evidence is given. There's also evidence from a

1:11:46 particular witness, a which we can get into as well.

1:11:50 The evidence that we've presented in terms of the, the

1:11:53 blood stain 91 or sorry, I shouldn't say Bloodstone, we

1:11:56 don't. If it was blood, the stain 91,

1:11:59 all those things were presented, but how?

1:12:00 Unfortunately, the jury could not come to a unanimous

1:12:03 decision. So they just couldn't agree.

1:12:06 Hung jury, it completely hung jury.

1:12:08 So they had to abort and start again as well.

1:12:11 Yeah. So do you want to talk a little

1:12:12 bit about witness AI mean he comes into the next trial as?

1:12:17 Well, yeah, so he he did present again at the next trial.

1:12:20 So the next trial was held in December or started in was it

1:12:23 December of 2015? I think you're right, so I just

1:12:26 changed my page. Oh, no, sorry.

1:12:29 June of 2016, the fourth trial begins.

1:12:31 Yeah. Now thankfully, I mean, this one

1:12:37 went, I think this one went for about 7 months at this point.

1:12:41 But the so witness A was also called to testify again.

1:12:45 Now witness A testified that while he was playing ping pong

1:12:49 in prison with G, with Robert, he showed him how to press a

1:12:55 specific pressure point on the neck to stop a heart or

1:12:59 incapacitate a person. And he said this is a way to

1:13:05 asphyxiate somebody and yeah, really incapacitate them, if not

1:13:11 kill them. Now Robert had back in China had

1:13:15 martial arts training, so he was.

1:13:17 Also an ENT. Yeah.

1:13:18 And an ENT, so he had had knowledge of these things.

1:13:22 That's not. It's not unlikely that he knew

1:13:27 this. Stuff like this is very highly

1:13:28 likely that he knew that. Yeah.

1:13:29 I mean, it's four of the five victims had signs of neck

1:13:34 compression or asphyxia on autopsy.

1:13:38 And the Crown argued that it was a direct application of his

1:13:42 medical expertise. Yeah, to ensure that these

1:13:45 people were actually dead following being struck with the

1:13:48 Hammerlock device. Yeah, Yep.

1:13:51 So witnessed a who was he say he was another prisoner in this in

1:13:57 the jail with Robert, obviously, but he had been convicted of

1:14:01 armed robbery, drug offences, assaulting a police officer.

1:14:05 He wasn't a good person. Let's just put that Oh no.

1:14:08 However, one aspect of his the of who he was was that he had

1:14:12 had basically spent not consecutively, but various times

1:14:16 in his life. He'd been in prison for around

1:14:17 about 18 years in total. But he was sort of coming

1:14:21 towards the end of his sentence of, of his time.

1:14:25 And he was actually at a point where he was at this point that

1:14:29 he was put in maximum. He was in maximum security with

1:14:31 Robert C, which he didn't. He was actually at a point where

1:14:35 he was had the chance to be able to be moved to minimum security.

1:14:40 But he because he started this relationship with Robert, they

1:14:44 decided to keep him in this maximum security.

1:14:46 So he committed to them and said, OK, I'll forego life of

1:14:51 luxury over at minimum security to stay here and keep this

1:14:54 relationship being built with Robert and get more information.

1:14:58 So I find that interesting and of like potentially because it's

1:15:03 always interesting to have fellow inmates.

1:15:06 There's definitely a conference. As you were saying, Wentworth

1:15:08 lag on someone. Yeah.

1:15:12 Yeah. So I mean, so it's an absolute

1:15:13 no, no, The the witness has said that at this point he would have

1:15:18 been. Well, he gave a fairly graphic

1:15:21 image of what could happen to him if it was found out that he

1:15:25 was sharing information about a prison, a prisoner with the

1:15:28 police. Yep.

1:15:29 So he was was putting himself in jeopardy doing this because he

1:15:31 was actually taking in according devices.

1:15:34 He was wearing a wire when he was having conversations with

1:15:37 Robert. So he took a massive risk to do

1:15:40 that. But, I mean, it's always, you

1:15:42 know, juries don't generally believe inmates because they do

1:15:45 get benefits from doing this stuff, too.

1:15:48 Yeah. He had struck a deal that if he

1:15:51 was going to stay in the maximum security and not head over to

1:15:54 minimum security, he'd get an extra $500 a month in his, you

1:15:59 know, pay. So that's considerable.

1:16:02 He was also going to get, you know, some time taken off of

1:16:05 his, of his time in prisons. So, you know, he was definitely

1:16:09 getting benefit out of doing it, but he was risking his life,

1:16:12 too. I I do definitely think that's

1:16:16 worth noting. Yeah.

1:16:18 Yeah, but he but, but having said that, OK, yes, he was

1:16:20 risking his life probably, but he was sort of also under the

1:16:24 protection of the guards. They would have known what was

1:16:28 going on it. Wentworth.

1:16:30 I know, but I mean, they've got a duty of care to the prisoners

1:16:33 as well, though I think they would have been watching this

1:16:36 like a hawk. Well, I don't know that the

1:16:37 guards would have known that he was doing this necessarily.

1:16:40 I think they would have known. Yeah, no, yeah.

1:16:44 I don't know, maybe. Maybe I, I, I'm not sure.

1:16:47 Yeah, but he this witness, I also said that he was having a

1:16:50 discussion. So in order to kind of get

1:16:53 Robert talking about all of this, he brought up the fact

1:16:56 that metal. He was talking about the fact

1:16:59 that metal was actually a porous substance.

1:17:01 Yes. And you can never actually fully

1:17:04 get rid of DNA like from a hammer or something like that.

1:17:07 If you've used that in a, you know, somebody's DNA is always

1:17:10 going to be found. Yeah.

1:17:11 And witness A said that. And I believe this was actually

1:17:15 part of the recorded conversation.

1:17:17 Yeah. It was that the seemed obsessed

1:17:22 with how you would hide DNA within a metallic object.

1:17:28 Actually, the quote is how would it look if the murder weapon

1:17:31 turned up during the middle of my trial with someone else's

1:17:33 prints on it? Yeah, yeah.

1:17:37 Yeah. He's yeah, so.

1:17:40 He's he's he was questioning things.

1:17:42 Yeah. So the what the police actually

1:17:44 think happened in terms of the murder weapon.

1:17:46 This is what I was getting at before.

1:17:49 They think that when Min went to pick up his in laws on that

1:17:53 morning, on the on that Saturday morning, that he actually used

1:17:57 that time to dispose of the murder weapon because what Min

1:18:00 thought would happen. This is again.

1:18:02 All according sorry. Sorry.

1:18:04 I mean Robert. Sorry.

1:18:05 Oh, my God. Sorry.

1:18:06 I mean Robert. Sorry.

1:18:08 What Robert thought was going to happen on that morning was that

1:18:13 they would probably go, as you said, to open the news agency

1:18:18 and somebody else would go and find.

1:18:20 Well on this recording he was recorded saying I didn't, I

1:18:24 didn't want for my wife to find. Them.

1:18:26 Yes, he didn't. He did.

1:18:27 He did. No, Sorry.

1:18:28 Sorry. He didn't want to be the person

1:18:30 who was there finding them. No, because he thinks that that

1:18:33 would make it look like he had done it.

1:18:36 Yeah. So he didn't want to be there

1:18:37 that morning. Like he wasn't really intending

1:18:39 on being in that house at that time, but that's how it.

1:18:42 Obviously he thought it played out.

1:18:43 He thought it would play out differently.

1:18:45 Yeah, but he thought that his wife would go there and find

1:18:48 them and he wouldn't. So which I just.

1:18:51 Then why did he go? But what a what an absolute

1:18:53 piece of. Shit, he's a total fucking.

1:18:54 For like you want your wife to go and find her brother and his

1:18:57 family dead like that? Like you are gonna put her in

1:18:59 that position. Oh God no.

1:19:01 He doesn't care. No, but yeah, so he was, you

1:19:03 know, on record of saying that, which is an admission of it's a

1:19:07 confession of being involved. Definitely they, well, the

1:19:10 prosecution certainly took it that way.

1:19:11 Yeah, yeah. But yeah, so with the hammer

1:19:14 then it would did he like dispose of that, as you say,

1:19:17 when he was on his way to pick up the grandparents, that may be

1:19:19 why he changed his mind from telling them to get the train.

1:19:22 But he kind of went oh, shit, actually my good opportunity to

1:19:24 go and get rid of that. But having said that, he clearly

1:19:28 in this what what? So that what they do is they

1:19:30 they set up like an undercover cop by the name of Harry who the

1:19:35 this witness A says he knows this bloke who works in like a

1:19:40 Mortuary or something like that where so he could get DNA from a

1:19:43 dead person, say, and then they could put it on the weapon.

1:19:49 So yeah, what he's basically saying there is that he knows

1:19:52 where the weapon is and he can produce it at any moment, which

1:19:57 I find really, really interesting.

1:19:58 So he knows. It's not like he has then piffed

1:20:00 it somewhere that it can't be found or disposed of it in a way

1:20:04 that it cannot. Be gone and hidden it somewhere.

1:20:06 He's hidden it somewhere and he knows where that is.

1:20:08 Do. You think that's like a trophy

1:20:10 in some way or what do you think that's better?

1:20:12 Is it a control? Thing just a control thing.

1:20:14 Yeah, I'm not sure I. Don't know, but he's definitely

1:20:16 admitting that it's somewhere that it can be found.

1:20:19 Yep. And that he could go get it and

1:20:21 he could potentially put this DNA on it then and then randomly

1:20:25 have it show up. Yeah.

1:20:27 Whoa, whoa. So, yeah, this is all, I mean,

1:20:31 this is all I'm recording. This isn't just like witness A's

1:20:34 word. Yeah.

1:20:35 It's. I mean, I know that there is

1:20:37 some level of entrapment, like offering this up, but it's I

1:20:42 think it's very convincing to me personally that he is he's

1:20:46 admitting to being at fault in some way with all of this.

1:20:51 Yeah, it was. So there was a favorite that

1:20:52 came out with witness A. But, I mean, obviously it's

1:20:54 always controversial when a prisoner becomes a witness and

1:20:58 lags on one of their fellow inmates.

1:21:01 Yeah. The other thing he admitted to

1:21:04 witness A apparently was that he had, that he said something to

1:21:10 that, to G, to Robert, like, oh, your wife is no problem.

1:21:13 You told her. You told me before when the

1:21:15 murder happened, your wife sedated and Robert replied,

1:21:20 yeah, So he admitted there I guess in I guess he's being LED

1:21:26 in that statement though, like it's he didn't actually say the

1:21:29 words. I succeeded Kathy like, but he

1:21:33 has agreed that this that's what happens.

1:21:35 So that way he could leave the house, commit these murders and

1:21:38 return, you know, we're talking like, as you said, between 2:00

1:21:41 and 5:00 AM somewhere in there. Hours, because then he's had to

1:21:45 come home. Yeah, they lived close, but

1:21:47 still. He's had to obviously clean up,

1:21:50 clean up, remove the clothes that he was wearing because he

1:21:53 would have been. Covered in blood, yeah.

1:21:56 And Kathy, for Kathy not to wake up because wake up in her first.

1:22:00 Yeah, in her first interview with police, they talk about

1:22:04 that. Do you sleep in the same room as

1:22:05 your husband? Yes.

1:22:07 Would you notice if he got up to go to the toilet?

1:22:09 Yes, I would, but on this particular.

1:22:12 Night but that's where she changed his her statement to I

1:22:16 find her a little bit interesting.

1:22:18 I I've got some question marks over.

1:22:20 Here I've got a lot of question marks over here, but then I also

1:22:23 wonder about her motivation. Yes, I do too.

1:22:28 Knowing him. She So in one statement she she

1:22:32 initially says something along the lines of I, he was, he was

1:22:37 beside me all night. And then another time I think

1:22:40 she said something like, I don't know, like, Oh no, she said

1:22:43 originally I assume he would, he was or something like that.

1:22:47 And then later she really doubled down on it, said Oh no,

1:22:49 he definitely was with me all night.

1:22:51 That that's that's right how it happened.

1:22:52 Yeah. So, yeah, when she was first

1:22:55 asked, she was like, I don't know, I slept through the whole

1:22:57 night. And yeah, yeah, I mean, we

1:22:59 always sleep in the same room. Yeah.

1:23:01 To then subsequent interviews, she was like, he was definitely,

1:23:05 he definitely slept with me the whole night.

1:23:08 Now let's talk about Kathy a bit now, because she's, as you said,

1:23:12 she's really interesting. I feel for her in so many ways

1:23:17 because I don't think she knew initially that her husband had

1:23:20 done these murders. You think so?

1:23:23 I don't know. I don't think she did.

1:23:25 The reason for that is that the reaction?

1:23:27 True. The reaction.

1:23:28 I think you could not fake that. No, I can't agree with that, but

1:23:32 I, I there's something weird about.

1:23:35 So when, when they, the police arrive and they still don't know

1:23:39 where Min is. Yep, right.

1:23:42 And the, and so they're looking. Apparently, according to the

1:23:45 police, they were fairly convinced that Robert told

1:23:51 Kathy, tell them to look under the donor.

1:23:54 Tell them to look under the donor.

1:23:56 Yeah. And then Kathy says look under

1:23:58 the donor. Yeah.

1:23:59 She then now won't admit that. Not anymore.

1:24:03 But isn't it? Isn't it on a police recording?

1:24:05 Device. I think so.

1:24:07 I think it's on one of the body. Worn cameras or something like

1:24:10 that. There is solid evidence.

1:24:12 Solid evidence to it, Yeah, multiple people overheard.

1:24:16 It yeah, maybe it was. There, it was actually recorded.

1:24:18 It's one or the other, I believe.

1:24:19 I can't. I just know police believe

1:24:21 that's what happened. Yeah, but she does not tell that

1:24:24 story now. So why are you covering those

1:24:27 sorts of things up for him? Yeah, see, this is what I want

1:24:29 to talk about because I think I, I genuinely don't think Kathy

1:24:34 knew that he was going to kill them or anything like.

1:24:37 That no. But I think I think she I think

1:24:44 about the way that Robert was with Brenda and the fact that he

1:24:49 was sexually abusing her. And did Kathy know something

1:24:52 about that? Because, you know, Cog, she must

1:24:55 have had an inkling maybe. Yeah.

1:24:58 What abuse was being then perpetrated upon Kathy from

1:25:03 Robin and their son? I don't know that nothing's come

1:25:06 out about that. But then the way that she's so

1:25:09 fiercely defends him to when she to this day, to this day, when

1:25:14 she's seen that scene, is it is it a psychological?

1:25:19 Is she trying to preserve herself?

1:25:21 Is it psychological? Like is she protecting herself

1:25:26 by going on? And my husband could never have

1:25:28 done that because I the thought of that I couldn't get over like

1:25:32 I couldn't live with that. Or, or is she protecting him

1:25:37 because she's afraid of him and she's afraid that he's just

1:25:39 going to do the same thing to her should the opportunity

1:25:42 arise? And should she go against him

1:25:44 the. Only thing of that is when you

1:25:46 think, OK he's now, I guess we can get to that point that he is

1:25:49 in jail what you want and go OK well now I can come out and tell

1:25:53 me. Stories she actually even stir

1:25:54 up in court and said he's innocent, He's innocent.

1:25:57 I can't believe you've convicted him.

1:26:00 Yeah, I don't know. To me that screams survivor of

1:26:06 abuse. I mean, at the end of the day,

1:26:08 abusive people who are under that kind of abuse will side

1:26:13 with the abuser because it's safer and I think

1:26:15 psychologically to separate herself from that constant

1:26:20 abuse. I don't know that you can just

1:26:22 do it at the snap of a finger. Like, you know, he's in jail.

1:26:24 I can now just, you know, now I can speak my truth.

1:26:27 I think that there's like a an ongoing impact of that, that she

1:26:30 can't move from, that he can still have power somehow, even

1:26:34 from jail. Oh, yeah.

1:26:35 Oh, I, I don't doubt that. Yeah, if, if, if he is, if he is

1:26:40 that which I mean. Was only only I mean, the kind

1:26:45 of murder he did is someone who has a lot of rage.

1:26:51 And then this is what I'm saying, like, even the way that

1:26:53 the school principal saw the way that he dealt with Brenda, who's

1:26:59 really vulnerable at the time, she just lost her entire family,

1:27:02 and yet he was still treating her horrifically in front of

1:27:05 other people. Yeah.

1:27:06 To then think about what that is like behind closed doors.

1:27:08 Of course, Kathy would have been copying it too.

1:27:11 I mean, I do find Brenda interesting and her like, and

1:27:15 how she speaks about her uncle, you know, their relationship.

1:27:17 Yeah. But again, abused 100%.

1:27:20 Yeah. And so that's very and then his

1:27:22 I guess there's a layer of a bit of like culture over that as

1:27:25 well, you know, and that whole idea of, you know, family is the

1:27:28 most important thing and you don't speak I'll of your family

1:27:31 and they're the only people who support you.

1:27:33 And then unfortunately they've that's who has done this shit to

1:27:37 her. It must be so unbelievable to

1:27:39 comprehend. So I have give her all grace in

1:27:43 the world in terms of understanding that for herself.

1:27:45 And I believe, I mean, I know she's come out of it the other

1:27:47 end now, but like, that's that's where I can't get my head around

1:27:52 Kathy not being able to go, OK, let's put the murders to the

1:27:58 side and go, this is my niece. And he treated her like that

1:28:03 because it regardless of who murdered she.

1:28:06 I mean, I think at the end of the day, he and and Kathy have

1:28:11 come to terms with the fact that Brenda's told the truth.

1:28:14 It's the murders that he's not. He says he's innocent of, I

1:28:19 believe that he's admitted to the sexual assault sort of

1:28:22 stuff, so. He doesn't.

1:28:24 She. No, he doesn't deny that.

1:28:25 So how can how can Kathy not still go?

1:28:30 Nah. Fuck.

1:28:31 Yeah. I'm not standing up for any of

1:28:33 this. I'm.

1:28:34 I know this about you. I know that about you.

1:28:36 You know, put it all together. Yeah.

1:28:38 You're capable of doing the other thing too.

1:28:41 But she hasn't. She's totally not.

1:28:45 He's innocent, I think. The the only way I can justify

1:28:50 it in my mind is that it's her is victimhood the right, the

1:28:56 right like it's it's that lens that she's looking through it in

1:28:59 that she has to be on the other side.

1:29:03 Like what if he got out like? Absolute, pure loyalty.

1:29:06 Yeah, like, what if he got out? You know, she's probably trying.

1:29:09 It's self preservation in a way. Like, yeah.

1:29:13 Well, I mean, there is a small, very small minority of people,

1:29:16 and I'm talking like, you know, Reddit threads kind of stuff

1:29:19 that believe that he also is innocent.

1:29:21 And the reason mainly for thinking he could still be

1:29:24 innocent is that Kathy thinks he's innocent and that a wife

1:29:28 would know. And I just Nah, I can't, I can't

1:29:32 come at it. There's no I think there is

1:29:34 enough evidence here. I know people pick apart stay in

1:29:37 91. I know, but then I I look OK,

1:29:40 let's even not count that. I mean to me that.

1:29:42 I think the circumstantial evidence is.

1:29:43 Enough is enough. Agreed.

1:29:44 And the fact that he has system. He's basically abused Brenda.

1:29:51 Yep, sexually abused Brenda. Yep.

1:29:55 Then systematically ridded everyone else in her family, got

1:29:59 rid of them. Any obstacle or anything to it.

1:30:02 Like maybe did Min find out? Did I don't know, did someone

1:30:06 find out about it? I reckon.

1:30:07 That for himself. He just gave himself unfettered

1:30:11 access to her. Yeah, of course she was going to

1:30:14 go to them. The other nail in the coffin in

1:30:15 terms of circumstantial evidence that I find is that so in all

1:30:20 this, as we said, he got control of the finances and things

1:30:22 right? He evicted his laws from the

1:30:29 house that Min owned. Yep, so they were completely

1:30:33 homeless. Literally.

1:30:34 Literally homeless now. The thought process here is that

1:30:38 he did that so that Brenda couldn't be taken from their

1:30:41 home and given to the grandparents.

1:30:44 Even if Brenda complained and said I don't want to live there

1:30:46 anymore. Because they didn't.

1:30:47 Have the grand stable home. Have a stable home.

1:30:49 Yep, Yep. What a piece of shit.

1:30:53 Why? How does Kathy?

1:30:54 Stay that. That's what I think.

1:30:56 And this again, to me speaks to, to the fact that he just has her

1:31:01 totally under his control. Because Kathy, when I you can

1:31:07 see interactions, there's this actually, there's this really

1:31:09 sort of touching photo that you can see from the funeral where

1:31:13 Kathy is comforting her parents. And I find that it, it's very

1:31:21 genuine. Like she is, she's distressed,

1:31:24 she is distraught herself. Her elderly parents are there

1:31:29 and she's trying, she's physically trying to hold them

1:31:32 up basically. And it's, it's a really

1:31:34 heartbreaking photo. And so I think again, I think

1:31:45 she would have her parents best interests at heart and if she,

1:31:52 if she was able and capable of ensuring they were able to keep

1:31:57 their home and all of that, she would have.

1:32:00 But she couldn't. I I I honestly believe she

1:32:03 couldn't. No, I just.

1:32:06 It frustrates me. It's horrific, it's horrible.

1:32:09 And I, I think Kathy's a victim in this too.

1:32:12 But then, but then the thing, the thing that kind of gets me

1:32:15 on her as well is I feel as though, and I don't, there's no

1:32:18 proof of this, this is just my own opinion, but I'm like, I

1:32:22 feel like she must have known about the abuse with Brenda and

1:32:24 did nothing about that. And to me, I actually can't come

1:32:27 at that. And is there a level of her

1:32:29 going on now we get all that money too?

1:32:33 I hadn't I you know what that thought hadn't actually crossed.

1:32:35 Maybe she was equally maybe her and Robert had been talking to

1:32:38 each other going gets bullshit that he's been successful

1:32:41 success when we haven't been you know maybe there were both my.

1:32:43 Thoughts with him, my thought never went there.

1:32:45 I was always just like, oh, Robert was doing like scheming

1:32:47 this in his own little mind. I don't know.

1:32:50 I reckon she might have been a bit in on it, maybe not in on it

1:32:53 and murdering them. No, I don't know.

1:32:56 I think they'd been manipulation beyond just.

1:33:00 Yeah, jealousy there too. I.

1:33:01 Think jealousy there, too, from her on her brothers, you know,

1:33:04 jealousy of her, jealous of her brother and what he had.

1:33:07 Yeah. Because it's like, to me, she's

1:33:10 walked into that house and seen that horrific scene, and her

1:33:13 brain could immediately justify, oh, my brother's done this to

1:33:16 his family, but she can't imagine that her husband could

1:33:20 have done that. Yeah, that's weird to me.

1:33:27 There's there's then there's inbuilt hate for your brother.

1:33:33 Yeah, that's actually a good point.

1:33:36 I hadn't thought about it from that perspective.

1:33:40 I honestly like to my core couldn't walk into a scene like

1:33:43 that and assume my brother could have could do that, you know,

1:33:46 like never. Whereas she did so there's got

1:33:51 to have been some sort of negative thoughts of her to her

1:33:54 brother. Or did Robert?

1:33:56 I think Robert planted it. I think Robert.

1:33:58 So then again, yeah, that's the control of him.

1:34:01 Like she has to believe him and go with him.

1:34:04 Yeah, yeah, it's. So complicated I think like.

1:34:10 Yeah, Yep. So ultimately, I mean, obviously

1:34:14 we got to trial 4, which I mean, I just, I mean that alone is

1:34:16 like more abuse, isn't it to poor Brenda.

1:34:19 Brenda testified in three of the four trials.

1:34:23 Yeah. And her like she was a critical

1:34:27 witness in all of this in that she was able to give a lot of

1:34:29 context around the family setup and all of that sort of thing.

1:34:32 And. By the time we got to the fourth

1:34:34 trial, the relationship between Kathy and Brenda had completely

1:34:38 broken down, so they didn't have a relationship by the time they

1:34:41 got to this point anyway. Which is so sad.

1:34:43 It's sad and the. Way Brenda still talks about her

1:34:46 auntie to this day, like she still has a lot of love and

1:34:48 respect for her even though she's supporting.

1:34:52 The murderer of her family, that's oh God, that's mentally

1:34:56 fucked it up anyway, Yeah, that's.

1:34:58 Brenda just seems like a very forgiving person.

1:35:01 She's a very lovely, lovely person.

1:35:03 Yeah. But yeah.

1:35:04 So she was able to provide testimony for the prosecution.

1:35:08 Yeah. About the layout of their house

1:35:11 and like the fact that Robert knew the house inside out and

1:35:17 back to front end and been upstairs, you know, like in some

1:35:19 people's houses, maybe if all of the bedrooms are upstairs, as a

1:35:23 visitor, you probably would never go upstairs, you know?

1:35:26 Absolutely. But she was able to testify to

1:35:28 the fact that that wasn't necessarily the case.

1:35:31 Like Robert knew and and Kathy, they both knew the layout of the

1:35:34 upstairs of the house. That was not something that was

1:35:37 sort of like a private area that no one ever went.

1:35:39 Because there was that ingrained in each other's lives that that

1:35:41 says a lot to me. That's like, you know, friends

1:35:43 that come over, you know, can not go upstairs.

1:35:45 But family did. Like it was, yeah.

1:35:48 She was probably, you know, they're probably in each other's

1:35:49 bedroom bedrooms, you know, showing outfits that, you know,

1:35:52 Lily had bought and things like that and being family.

1:35:55 Yeah. Oh, gosh, yeah, he was

1:35:58 eventually he was sentenced to five consecutive life sentences.

1:36:02 So love that no chance of him saying the light of day.

1:36:05 Thank God when there's. Concurrent sentences.

1:36:08 It just irks he's so bad. Yeah, Yeah.

1:36:11 So, yeah. But I mean, at the end of all of

1:36:13 this, I mean, as I say, Brenda, she has come out of this as good

1:36:17 as you could hope for in, in all aspects really.

1:36:21 I mean, it's just absolutely tragic.

1:36:22 So we're talking 7 1/2 years between the murders occurring

1:36:26 and then the end of the trial, the fourth trial.

1:36:30 Finally getting 22 I think or 23 when the.

1:36:33 That's the final. That's a.

1:36:34 That's a huge amount of time for.

1:36:35 That's that's your formative years.

1:36:37 Absolutely. So she was quoted coming out of

1:36:39 the she read a statement after the trial, which just broke me

1:36:44 when hearing her say that, you know, that it'd been 7 1/2 years

1:36:47 since she'd had her parents and her, her siblings and her auntie

1:36:51 and all these things that she'd done in that time.

1:36:53 She'd finished a uni course, you know, she'd graduated from high

1:36:56 school, she'd finished her uni course.

1:36:57 She'd, you know, started a life for herself in that time or

1:37:01 without them there being there for all those really amazing

1:37:05 parts of her life, which I just that's that's just where this is

1:37:09 all so freaking senseless and awful.

1:37:13 But she's now set up a like she, she supports other people who

1:37:18 have been through traumatic circumstances.

1:37:21 So she's she's really been able to use her experience to now

1:37:26 help others in these circumstances in similar

1:37:27 circumstances. So that's amazing for her to be

1:37:31 able to do that because I sense from her she's a very private

1:37:35 person. Yeah.

1:37:37 And so coming out about these sexual abuse, which at first was

1:37:40 actually kept under wraps, it was not allowed out to the

1:37:43 public that. Aspect of the trial her identity

1:37:45 was her oppressed because she was.

1:37:48 She was under the. Age of 18, yeah, when the when

1:37:51 the abuse was happening to her. So it got to a point where she

1:37:54 was able to become public with that, that that was her in that

1:37:59 in the trial. And I think that there's been a

1:38:01 lot of, you know, she's done a lot of growing within that and

1:38:04 being able to consolidate for herself what that means and

1:38:09 what, you know, what she can do with that knowledge and power

1:38:11 now and herself. And use that, you know, in

1:38:14 advocacy work and in supporting other people, other victims or

1:38:18 survivors. Yeah, Yeah.

1:38:20 These extremely traumatic situations.

1:38:23 Yeah. She's a very impressive young.

1:38:26 She really is. So she Co founded the Survivor

1:38:28 Hub. It's called so the organization

1:38:31 for survivors of sexual assault and trauma.

1:38:33 So the organization helps survivors connect with others

1:38:36 who understand the legal process and recovery journey.

1:38:39 So it really all power to her doing all of that work.

1:38:41 It's it would be easy for her at all to relive all that stuff,

1:38:44 but to know that she can help others through it is amazing in.

1:38:49 February of 2021, Robert applied to the NSW Court of Criminal

1:38:56 Appeal for like for an appeal against his sentence

1:39:01 specifically and that was dismissed.

1:39:06 His, his lawyers at the time argued that the DNA evidence was

1:39:09 flawed, which is what we sort of alluded to before.

1:39:11 But the three panel, the three judge panel unanimously decided

1:39:15 that it stood up and he wasn't allowed.

1:39:17 So he's actually not allowed to appeal now.

1:39:19 That was his final. That was final.

1:39:21 Great. Yeah, and so he will be in

1:39:24 maximum security prison for the rest of his life.

1:39:27 And may he rot. The.

1:39:29 Absolute fucking piece of shit A. 100% I couldn't agree more.

1:39:33 Yeah, he is where he belongs, that is for sure.

1:39:36 I mean God, So just awful. I mean those young boys.

1:39:41 I mean, God, I just can't. I I can't either like a 12 year

1:39:45 old and a nine year old and they were trying to defend themselves

1:39:49 and they've probably just heard their parents getting murdered

1:39:51 like come. On the thought of like the fact

1:39:53 they knew him when he walked to that room, they would have known

1:39:56 who it was. It was attacking them.

1:39:57 Do you? Reckon immediately they probably

1:39:58 felt relief seeing him thinking that there's.

1:40:01 Something going on here, like, Oh my God, there is something

1:40:03 happening and like, oh, can you? I can just, oh, just it.

1:40:06 Breaks me. That's like the sort of what

1:40:08 their final. Oh yeah.

1:40:10 Oh God, yeah. To realise then.

1:40:11 Oh no, this bad person is our uncle.

1:40:14 Oh. Yeah.

1:40:15 Oh God. That's just.

1:40:18 Horrible. Absolutely.

1:40:19 Oh my God, not not good. I feel like at the very least,

1:40:27 you know, I mean, the fact that he got the consecutive life

1:40:32 sentences and you won't see the light of day like you won't see

1:40:34 step a foot outside of prison at all ever is absolutely

1:40:41 brilliant. But that doesn't help, does it,

1:40:45 in terms of what Brenda has to go through and live through for

1:40:48 the rest of her life. I mean, yeah, it's as much as we

1:40:51 call that justice. I really don't call it isn't

1:40:53 justice, is there? There is no justice.

1:40:55 No justice. Brenda talks about how, you

1:40:58 know, she's really lucky to have a wonderful network of friends

1:41:00 and their families who invite her to Christmas dinners and

1:41:03 stuff like that. And I'm like, you don't even

1:41:05 have someone to have Christmas dinner with.

1:41:07 No. You know she's got no.

1:41:08 Family at all anymore. I mean, that's just, I mean, I,

1:41:12 I saw articles where they called her an orphan and it's like,

1:41:14 it's awful to say that she's an orphan.

1:41:16 And orphan. Yeah, I, I, it's almost doesn't,

1:41:19 it doesn't cover it, does it? I mean, her entire family's been

1:41:23 annihilated. And I, I include Kathy and even

1:41:26 the grandparents to a certain extent in that because of the

1:41:30 way everything kind of panned out.

1:41:31 But. Yeah, yeah, just awful.

1:41:34 But but yet she's she's such an incredible human that she's

1:41:37 turned that into a positive, like the fact that she's even on

1:41:41 the straight and. Narrow.

1:41:42 Ohh my. God, how I know it just it's a

1:41:45 testament I think, to her early years upbringing.

1:41:48 Yeah, from her mum and dad. Yeah, I know there was an, an

1:41:51 interview with the principal, with her school principal who

1:41:53 like said like she just cannot wait to be invited to her

1:41:56 wedding. Yeah.

1:41:56 And then, you know, and then maybe a baby shower and all

1:41:59 these things, these other. And I love that she's got people

1:42:01 in her life, you know, when her her family, her parents aren't

1:42:04 there for those moments that she has got people around her who

1:42:07 are, you know, eager to be there for that, for her for those

1:42:10 moments. So, you know, at least she's,

1:42:12 she's definitely got, you know, well.

1:42:13 Nothing will ever replace the loss to the loss of her family,

1:42:16 but. Now she can choose a family who

1:42:18 will support her through those things.

1:42:20 Because, right, Buckstick Robert can go rot in jail for the

1:42:23 reverend. He's not family.

1:42:25 No. Oh, God, no, No, no, no, no, no.

1:42:28 God, no. All right, all right.

1:42:30 Thank you for joining us for another episode.

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1:43:39 thinking. This is I think this was one of

1:43:42 my ones. I'm like I really wanna do this

1:43:44 case. Wanna sink my teeth into this

1:43:46 one? Yes.

1:43:47 I can't promise that I won't attempt a South African accent.

1:43:52 Oh, and the car park. Park your car on the gross.

1:43:56 I need my brother to come over and do it.

1:43:58 He's freaking amazing at it. Anyway, have a great week

1:44:01 everyone. Absolutely stay curious, crying

1:44:03 besties. Bye.