Episode 90 - The Lin Family Murders

0:15 Welcome to Crime Besties to Episode 90. To getting go to go, I was. Gonna say we're inching closer, yeah. Very fine, nearly 100. Yeah, very. See more suggestions on that. We've had quite a few comes through. I've been keeping a list. So we've got, yeah, we've got some ideas that there's one. I'll talk to you about this one off air, but there is one that I think is a front runner for me. Okay, so, but if you've got any more suggestions, keep them coming 'cause we will be finalizing that. Well, we're almost ready to to sort of do that part of our scheduling.

0:47 So yeah, yeah, please let us know or any other cases that you want to hear as well. I love love hearing people's suggestions. Oh, definitely. No, we definitely use them. We definitely put them on the list and we may not do them immediately, but we do that. We're getting through that list and yeah. Absolutely. Yeah, that's it. One episode a week. Absolutely. Now tell me, how has your week been? You've still, I think we spoke about this in last episode. You weren't feeling 100%. You're still not. Well, literally, I think the next day I sent you a voice memo where I don't know that there was any voice you.

1:16 Didn't have any.

1:19 I had 0 voice the following day after we recorded. So thankfully, cause at that point we were on that Friday, we're like oh, should we do another day then? You know, like do we hold off? Yeah, luckily we didn't because yeah, I didn't have a voice pretty much. Definitely Saturday, nothing. Sunday I had barely any any voice and then got back to work this week with, you know, a bit of voice I. Mean just. You'll still hear it. Yeah, you'll. Clear it now. I've. Yeah, I'm still slowly getting it back.

1:42 Yeah. And sometimes I'll go to speak and there's no projection. Like so sorry about the raspy voice that we might cop by the end of this episode. No, no, that's fine. The people will, you know, all will be forgiven. So I'm sure thank you for being here and and doing it when you're still not feeling 100. Percent. I feel OK, just tired. Yeah, I guess, but it's that's the way, that's the thing, isn't it? And then you can't get a good sleep 'cause you're not feeling great. And then it takes longer to get to get better, yeah.

2:10 Yeah, I've just, I mean, 'cause I don't stop. Like you don't stop. You just can't. My mum's. Yeah. Yeah, working, et cetera, that it's like if I take a day off, I'm, I'm just further behind. So yeah, exactly. And the kids don't stop, so I don't stop. No they don't. No, they don't. So we're just soldier on. I've had a but I've had a quiet weekend this weekend to sort of take it easy and try and get back a little bit of rest and things. So I finished watching a series today that I've been like slowly, like just, you know, it's been my my go to of like when I just need nothing to watch sort of stuff like go on.

2:43 But I've watched it before and I'm sure all of our audience have definitely watched this. And if you haven't, holy crap, what rock ever been living under but Wentworth? Oh Wentworth is fantastic. I rewatched the entire like you, I've been, it's been going for a while, OK, This has been my my one that I've been going on for quite some time. But yeah, I, I finished that whole thing today. So I'm now like, now what am I gonna, what am I gonna revisit? Now. Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, no. God, that is so bloody good.

3:09 That show that series. So good. So good. Yeah. Not really enjoyed going, even going back on it. Like, I mean, I feel like I, I, yeah, yeah, there's like, 'cause there was the new ones they brought in, like the last two seasons were like, there's quite a gap between when they then brought the last two seasons out. Yeah, there's a clear difference between them, but still, Buddy good, buddy good. Yeah, good TV. Yeah. Have you? Is this just the second time you've watched it through or is? It I think it'll be the second.

3:36 Time. Yeah, I've only ever watched it once. It's not something I've revisited, but maybe that might be a go up. But then I've got so much other new TV that I always wanna watch. I'll give me some suggestions 'cause I. Mean there's there is an infinite number of Real Housewives franchises. Well, have you started Rhode Island? No. Actually saw that the other day. It's only new. Oh my God, it's so good. It's. So good. I reckon it's look, still Salt Lake's up there for me. It's up there. Yeah, it always will be.

4:09 But this has got like, a similar vibe to it. You know how Beverly Hills is a bit polished? Yes. All these Rhode Island girls aren't. And it's. So I think it's gonna be a lot of fun and it's quite scrappy. And they're already like, attacking each other's, like, appearances and things they wear and their character and so and so is having an affair with so and so and. Oh, it's. Actually fantastic. It's really so it's Jersey Shore esque. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, probably of like a little bit, you know, dipping a toe into that pool maybe.

4:39 Because I'm a bit mad on the valley at the moment too. Yeah, I haven't. I haven't gotten into that. Oh wow, you got to watch. That I've got it sitting there. Yeah, yeah. I just haven't gotten. Into now season 3, I think they're up to on that one that I'm watching. Actually, they advertised that in one of the Rhode Island episodes I was watching, so I do need to get into that. Yeah, I mean, because I loved Vanderpump and like to then go into that one like in like it's closer to my age, I guess. Definitely.

5:04 Yeah. You sort of see the, you know, the transition into the different lifestyle that. Yeah, it's very interesting. I can't wait. Yeah, actually, I'll have to get into that. That'll be my next thing, I think. Yeah, that's for sure. I went away this weekend with two of my girlfriends. We. Yes. So we're actually recording this on a Sunday. So thank you again for being flexible. And you know, but my girlfriends and I, instead of giving each other presents for our fortieths, we decided to go away for the weekend instead.

5:33 And oh, it was so nice. We just went away for one night, but it was sort of 24 hours of absolute bliss. We went to wineries, we had beautiful food, we had massages and facials, and it was just really, really nice. I loved that. I rang you on Friday at 11:30 and Yep, I was like, please tell me. Wine in hand and you're like, yeah, you know, very proud. I'm very proud I. Think I was into my second tasting by that by that point. That was great. So good. Yeah. So that was really fun. And I just felt like, you know, it was 24 hours or maybe a little bit longer, but just to stop, we didn't have to think about anyone else.

6:15 We just did whatever we wanted to do, didn't have to worry about kids or sports or, you know, all that sort of stuff. So that was really nice. Very good just to switch off and have a new time. Yep. And actually have conversations because normally when we catch up, I mean, sometimes we get to catch up without the kids, like if we go out for dinner or something, but it's still, you're on the clock, you've kind of got then we've got work the next day, you know? Yeah, We just had time. Yeah. Unfettered time.

6:38 It was beautiful. It was really, really good. So much fun. That's the best, Yeah. It gives you a refreshment to get back into the swing of things this week. Yep. Yep, Sure, sure, sure. Well, Speaking of like, things that have very recently come out. So I think because this episode's gonna come out about a week after we've recorded it, more may have played out in the media since. But I have to say, Kylie McBride and Kimberly French, two of our listeners, were right on top of this and sent us messages very, very quickly when they heard, yes, about our mate.

7:09 No, he's not our mate. The absolute piece of shit that is Alex Murdoch has been granted A retrial, but not for the financial crime. That's a sealed deal. That's a sealed deal. Which is a 40. He's got 40 for that, I think. So regardless, fuck Hope. He's probably gonna die in prison, yeah for that anyway. But he's still trying because he's a fucking Dick to, well, he's successfully, yes, his appeal has been successful because of that fucking Becky Hill. We talked about her in our episode. She's got a lot to answer for.

7:44 Yeah, I mean, she faced court for her involvement in not only this case, but other cases that she interfered with. Yeah, she only got like 300 hours of community service or something. Like she never went to prison. I don't. Think when she it's costing like, you know, the taxpayers like in these court hearings, I mean I dare say millions of dollars potentially like hundreds of thousands of dollars minimum of like taxpayer money being wasted then to retry these people because of that. This is what gets me right.

8:11 Why would they retry someone who's already got a 40 year prison sentence? Yeah. Like, well, I mean appeals or appeals if there is a legal standing for it, they. Have to do it, yeah. Otherwise, yeah, I guess making a bit of a mockery of the legal system I guess in some. Way. But yeah, I get them from a legal standpoint, we need to they need to go through and do the right thing. But then you just wish there was some kind of caveat that was like, well, why are we wasting everyone's time and taxpayer money to retry this guy who's probably going to die in prison anyway?

8:42 Yeah. But I guess then it becomes like, then what? It would be like, no one's convicted of that murder. Then it's kind of the case doesn't get officially closed. Yes. So then what are they going to do? Reinvestigate? Yeah. I mean, I guess they would have to. It'd be a cold case. That would be a yeah. When we maybe know who did it like. Yeah. Oh, we just haven't gone and done the trial for. It no it's. Not it's a sticky 1, isn't it? Because I guess really with these 40 years for the financial stuff, what chances are there of him getting parole or already with that like?

9:14 No, it's 40 years of no, it's no parole. Pretty sure. Yeah, yeah, I'm pretty sure. I do remember that from like doing the case, I think feel like it was really solid and tired. 40 years and he's going to be dead before then. So yeah. So at least that's. Mainly that, but still like, I mean, I don't know, I guess from perspective of like Maggie's family and you know, all that sort of thing and you know, and Paul's extended family and things like that, they should have closure on like the fact of who did this because it's, I mean, but isn't there the other stuff that's connected to him that I think needs further investigation anyway?

9:44 Well. That's exactly right. There's certainly. Other murders that he's been at least connected to. Yeah, so maybe in the reinvestigation of this, the retrying of this, maybe they'll bring in some new evidence and really fuck him over. Because the reason they sort of like with this case, it kind of threw him that there was the pipe is going to join us for tonight, today's episode. Sorry, everyone. Yeah, there was the there was the fact that the, the video evidence of Paul at the the the dog houses and things that came in during the trial.

10:16 That's right. Like he he kind of fumble over all of that evidence and that really screwed him. Whereas now when they go into another trial, they know that evidence exists. They'll they'll spin it how they want to spin it. Yeah, like it. It could turn out. I don't know, maybe they'll find some way to spin that. Yeah, well, like they've they've had time now to pull it over and figure out what they're gonna do. How they're gonna address it? I guess we need to just keep an eye on on what unfolds and see.

10:43 I wonder when that have they actually given a date of when it's going to be? I think it's like another 12 months away. It would it would have to be. Yeah, I feel like it was still like I feel like it was mid next year or something. After I read. Something, Yeah, OK, yeah, don't quote me, but it was that sounds. Like it was. That sounds right. Yeah, so he'll sit in jail. I mean, obviously this whole time anyway, not going anywhere. No, that, well, that's the thing. He's going to be in prison. Well, he has, yeah.

11:06 He's still serving that financial. Crime, nothing else that's keeping him busy whilst he sits and rots in jail. You know, like.

11:13 Seriously, I know, I know, podcasts are not a visual medium, but. That was an eye roll. The face. The face says it all.

11:22 All right, we have had quite a number of new patrons this week, so a massive shout out to Raylene Latham, Winona Deb Rush, Shona Porter who listens with her workmates. So thank you, Shona for sharing us with your friends. And to Jules, we've had another coffee bought for us by Miss Tan. Another Yep. Oh my gosh. Oh, she's. Gorgeous. She's amazing. Yeah. She said her granddaughter was listening to the banter part of her episode. Her granddaughter's a teenager. Yeah. And said to her, oh, Grammy, I know why you love these too much.

11:54 They swear as much as you do.

11:59 I'm told her to fuck off. So thank you, Miss Tan, and thank you to your granddaughter. Yeah. And then I just had another shout out today because this kind of made me chuckle a little bit. But Alison Riddle, who's one of our patrons, she said that her husband steals her other earpod and listens at the same time. Listens to us at the same time. Doesn't admit to it, but no, he likes. Shout out shout out to Alison Riddle's husband. Oh God, it's like Peter watching Real Housewives now. Hates it. Hates it.

12:27 What happens to always be walking past when I'm watching it? Knows all the characters names you know. What he was, he was like that with Sex and the City, because I watched Sex and the City so much like I I probably have watched that through 10 times, probably in my. Lifetime. Really. I've never rewatched it. I've like seen all but never rewatched. I've rewatched it all so many times. And so Peter reckons cumulatively over time, he's probably watched it all without watching it at all. Yeah, Yeah.

12:56 Well. I'm sure he's in the background watching every bit of it. Only only the sexy bits. Oh, sure, sure, sure. All right. So today's episode is a well, it's it's one that I definitely remember. It's horrific in it's unfolding and what happened and all of it, really. But we're talking today about the Linn family murders in New South Wales, in Sydney. And yeah, it's it's a case that, look, I think it was incredibly violent. It's definitely something that if this is not what you would want to listen to, there's some really sort of, we're not going to go into massively graphic detail, but there is a lot out there.

13:43 If you start looking at this case. I know certainly there were certain things, pictures that I just stumbled upon when I was looking up this case during the week and I was like, whoa, I didn't realize these were all made public or so. Public, some of them are. Really, really gruesome. So take care if if you are going to have a look at things after listening to this episode. But basically the case is surrounding the Linn family. So there was the mum and dad. So Min, who went by the name of Norman Lin and he was actually born in China.

14:20 His parents, his parents also were obviously born in China. And then he actually came here and was doing some studying and he met his wife Lily here. So her, I can't just her name was Yun Li Lin and she was over here studying as well. They met and then they actually moved back to China. They were married over in China and I believe Brenda was their first child, was born in China. Yeah. They then immigrated back to Australia and eventually Norman's mum and dad also immigrated and his sister and her husband.

15:00 So it was sort of like one of first generation Australians really. And they were, well, the Lin family were incredibly hard working, incredibly successful because of how hard they worked. And you know, they were probably the picture of, you know, that ideal immigrant family. They wanted an opportunity for their children that they felt they couldn't get when they lived in China. And so they really wanted to make an incredible life and an incredible home and everything for their for their children, which is what they did.

15:37 They absolutely did, yeah. There was such, yeah, really good, upstanding members of of the community. So when they first came over here, I think, I think originally Norman just, he was now, what did he do over in China? I can't remember off the top of my head. He did a he did a commerce degree. I know when he was here. And that's how he and Lily met. Yeah. And I can't actually remember what his profession was over in China. But when they moved here, they decided they opened a business originally that they then sold and then they had an opportunity to buy a news agency near their home.

16:19 So they lived in North Epping in New South Wales, and they lived in a really lovely sort of family home, quite a large family home. Yeah. By this stage they actually also had a couple of investment properties and one of which Norman's mum and dad lived in. Yes. And they. Yeah. So they ended up taking on the ownership of this news agency at the North Epping Shopping Centre. And they that meant that they became quite well known within the community and they were known as a very hard working family, really kind.

16:55 I think Lily did a lot of the sort of behind the counter kind of work. People in the community say that Lily, the success of the news agency was a lot because Lily was such a lovely and kind person. She wanted to get to know everybody. She had made sort of personal connection with all of the customers and that really sort of drove their business in a lot of ways. And then Norman or Min, he was sort of the backbone of the operation. He was the one who was getting up at 4:00 in the morning and delivering the papers and all of the stuff that you have to do as a news agent.

17:31 Yeah, the. Kids. So they grew their business so much that it was doing about $1,000,000 turnover each year. I mean, that's incredible. For a small business. That's huge. Yeah, Really. Especially like this is we're talking in the early, so it's like 2000 in the early 2. Thousands. 2000s. Yeah. By the time they sort of got the business to this point, so they were doing really, really well. Yeah. And the kids were so by this stage, so they had three children. They had Brenda, and then then they had Henry and then Terry.

18:00 So Henry at this time, so I think he was 12, Terry was 9 and Brenda was 1515. Yeah. So yeah, they, the kids were, I'm pretty sure. Did Brenda go to a Catholic girls school? Yes. And she was. She was described by her school principal as being incredibly intelligent and very studious, but also kind of a little bit mischievous sometimes and had really good friendships and very successful in terms of her schooling. Yeah. And she, he was actually studying French as a language at the time at school. And they had the opportunity to go over to New Caledonia for a school excursion, I guess.

18:44 Yeah, yeah, a school trip camp and well, I guess you'd call it a school camp, but yeah, yeah, very cool. Why don't you go and do do that? That would be. Amazing class. Yeah, I know. When I was in Year 9, the kids who were doing French, was it you 9 or Year 10? The kids doing French at my school went to New Caledonia. Really. Yeah. Yeah, it was. What an amazing opportunity. Absolutely yeah, so cool yeah we should mention too. So living with the family at this time was Lilies sister Irene Lynn. So she was also living in the family home with them.

19:14 So she had immigrated out here as well, so. She came over to study. So she was actually here on a study visa, yes. And then I think she she ended up then going on to do her masters or something. Yeah and 39 at the time of when we sort of enter the into this yeah, but she was yeah, she was studying at the same time as as living with them and working in the news agency as well. So part time, so yeah, yeah. And the. Kids would help out here and there as well. Apparently the boys would go and roll newspapers and yeah and do bits and pieces around.

19:47 So it was a very much a family affair. They were, they were a really close knit family so Min or Normans mum and dad lived really close to them. Well sorry, no they didn't. They lived about what, About a 50 minute drive away? Yeah, it was a fair distance, Fair distance. But his sister Kathy and her husband Robert and their son, yeah, lived literally 300 meters away. There was a park. There was basically a park in front of their house. And they lived across the other side of the park. Yeah. And so they were really intertwined in one another's lives.

20:21 But as an extended family unit, they would get together every single Friday night for family dinner. It was a bit of a non negotiable, they'd go over to Kathy and Normans mum and daddy's place. They would always cook dinner and quite often the three younger boys. So the so Kathy and Roberts son and Terry and Henry would often stay the night with their grandparents and then the grandparents the next day would take them to their activities. Well, I'm, I'm guessing like Saturday would be a really busy day at the news agency.

20:55 So yeah, that was something that they could kind of help out with and and did that was just the kind of nature of their family unit and how they operated. Yeah, I think Brenda was probably a little bit older at this point and kind of a little bit more self-sufficient, yeah, in terms of getting herself to where she needed to be on the weekends and probably didn't want to hang out with her with grandparents, little boys and grandparents, so. She's very close with her siblings though, too, with her younger brothers, and they had very tight relationship.

21:21 So yeah, even though she probably didn't stay and do those things that she was, she would still call them her best friends. So yeah, really lovely family unit. Yeah. Kathy, which is Min's sister and her husband, which we call, he goes by the name Robert or she, they moved out here and Robert, he was an ear, nose and throat doctor back in China. But he found it very hard when he moved, when they immigrated out to Australia to have that qualification recognised here and had to do further training and all these sorts of things that he didn't pass.

21:53 Yeah. So I read somewhere that there was like a conversion course. It was like 12 months, which that was the thing. I don't think he didn't pass that. But then if he actually then wanted to practice his specialty, there would have anyway been another two or three years worth of supervised study and and practice during that time. So it it's, it's a big deal, absolutely. But he didn't quite even get to that point. No, so he, he wasn't, he didn't bring out, he brought that skill with him, but wasn't able to then use it here in Australia.

22:22 So he was I guess a little bit at a loss what he would do from there. So he ended up working in the the family business as well. Well. In this at the start when he first moved, he he actually opened a restaurant. Sorry, he did, Yeah, he tried to bring out two chefs from China as well, but unfortunately the Australian government wouldn't pass their visas and things to get out here. So the the restaurant was a failure, unfortunately. Yeah, it didn't even last 12 months, I don't think. I think they I think they opened it without.

22:47 These two, yes, they did open it. Yeah, it just, it didn't, didn't get, I guess without the local chefs that he was hoping to bring here, trading up new other chefs here in Australia wasn't as easy as he thought, or so it didn't go as well as he would have hoped. Yeah. So I think he lost a fair bit of money in that venture. And you know, I mean, I guess it's a bit of a kick in the guts when when you try something like that and it doesn't work. But I mean, I, I find it hard to go like I open an ear, nose and throat doctor and now I'm gonna be a restaurateur.

23:18 That's they're not very different. I was gonna say. They're not really transferable skills. I can see, you know, commerce for background kind of thing and going where I've, I've, I've opened a news agency. Yeah. And I think that's why Min was so successful, why Norman and Lily were so successful, because Min had that background. Yeah, you had a run and operate a business. He was trained in Australia like he did his qualification most of it here. So he knew how the all the Australian. I don't know all the things you need to know about running a business.

23:48 Like yeah, he was able to sort of hit the ground running and and do what he needed to do. But because their business was so successful and because they were so family oriented, he didn't leave Robert high and dry. He employed Robert and I think my the way that I understand it from different people and the I'm talking about people in the community who knew them. Robert, sorry. Norman wanted to give Robert almost a sense of ownership in the business, like he really respect, wanted Robert to feel the respect that he felt as a business owner.

24:25 And so it wasn't like he was. Throwing him a bone and you know that. Made him feel it. And it wasn't like Norman would treat Robert like his subordinate or anything like that, which comes up a little bit later, but it's he really tried to make it collaborative. And people in the community saw that and recognized that and, and said that absolutely. It was something that, you know, it wasn't like Norman went around and, you know, felt like he was better than anyone else. Was also helping. Working family was everything to these people so that, you know, their extended family that we're here in Australia, that's their, that was their core place to be.

25:00 Yeah, there was comment from Brenda that I read that where she said that in life they were basically raised for the with this feeling of that there can be bad people in the world, but you've always got family no matter what. And so they were your people you went to for all your love and support and, you know, and then there's friends and things that you make, but you always come back to family. So, you know, if that's how you've been raised, I mean, that's how that what Min Norman, you know, was instilling in his own daughter.

25:29 You know, that family is the most important thing. I can't imagine him treating someone like that in a way, as you say, as a subordinate, more unequal in that in their in that family business. Mm hmm. Yeah, yeah. So I guess we're probably now coming to the day that changed everything for this family. So on the evening of the 17th of July in 2009, which was a Friday, they gathered for their usual Friday night dinner. Or should. We say, so Brenda, at this stage, she, she'd left, sorry, a couple of days before that again, I think she'd gone on her trip to New Caledonia as we mentioned earlier.

26:04 So she was not in Australia at this point. She was, yeah, flown out on a flight, I believe. I'm gonna say the 15th of July. I might be. Wrong. I think that's right, actually. Yeah, that sounds right to me. I think they. Flew out as a class. She said that when she got to the airport, her friends were all saying goodbye to their parents and crying. And, you know, going for a whole week overseas and at that age, that's huge. And I can't imagine being 15 and going overseas, like, without family. So that's, I mean, it's huge.

26:31 But she said she didn't cry when she was at the at the airport. She said goodbye to her parents. She'd said to her mum that she loved her and that goodbye. But she didn't. Her daddy took her to the airport. She said they just didn't do that. That's not what they would do as a family. It was, you know, she was respectful and, you know, lovingly said goodbye, but without using those words. Yeah. She actually said in an interview that she'd never actually told her dad that out loud that she loved him.

26:58 Interesting. I mean, it's culturally, Yeah. That's really, you know, that's that doesn't say that. You know what I always say? Actually speak louder than words. You know that they they would have known that they loved each other. Absolutely 100. But it was just something that culturally, that's not what you say. Yeah, globally, I I found Brenda's account of the day the night before she left because I think that her flight left, you know, they were leaving at like 4:00 in the morning or something to go to the airport.

27:22 I mean, even the fact that Min got up at 4:00 in the morning to take her to the airport shows how much he loves. Her exactly. Exactly. Yeah. But basically the night before, she was saying saying goodbye to her mum, and they had a bit of a hug and a kiss and, yeah. And then she went to say goodbye to her brothers. But her auntie was in bed with, like, in her bedroom already with the door shut. And she said, you know, with respect to her privacy, Yeah, I just sort of let that go. And, like, I was gonna see her in a week.

27:50 So it didn't really matter for a week. It was fine. And she sort of went to bed, woke up the next morning and, you know, thinking she'd see her family a week later when she got back from New Caledonia. So yeah, on this evening of the 17th of July in 2009, they've done their family dinner. And it was a normal, normal evening. By all accounts it. Was, although apparently them, I think it was grandma who was hassling the I think it was Henry particularly. She was like coming, you know, wanted him to stay the night, just him.

28:19 Yeah. And but he for some reason decided, no, he didn't want to do that so. He was actually booked to play badminton the next morning with Robert, with his uncle. So they were both really keen badminton players. And by the sounds of it, Henry, who was only 12 years old at the time, was a really good badminton player. Yeah, there there was sort of stories about him. He wasn't great at ball sports, but he was really good at racket sports. He was really good at table tennis, badminton. Yeah. They were his things.

28:49 Mm Hmm. Didn't like contact sports at all. Yep. Fair. Which is completely fair. Yeah. And then so. Yeah. And because he was so good, he could play against his uncle Robert. Yeah, who was also apparently a really good badminton player. And so they would often just go the two of them to, to play a game. So that was what was scheduled for the following morning, right. And so Henry was like, oh, like, it's too far away for them to get Uncle Robert to come pick me up and take me back to Badminton. So he went home with his mum and dad and his brother that night back to their place.

29:25 And Kathy, Robert and their son went back to their home after the dinner. Yes. The next morning, so we're now talking on the 18th of July in 2009, it was so the news agency was due to open, I think they're opened at 7:00 in the morning on a Saturday. And there were people now, you know, people in the community who would go and get their newspaper first thing Saturday morning and probably go back home and read it while they were drinking their coffee and eating their brekkie. And on this particular morning, people were showing up or going out the front to get their newspapers and realizing they hadn't been delivered, trying to call the shop, trying to call the store to see what had happened.

30:11 I mean, these things happen like sometimes, you know, you might them houses get missed. But apparently Norman never missed. Yeah. Never missed a day. Never. They never not opened. You know, there was always somebody there. Yeah. And so this made people really, really concerned. Now, there were people in the community who knew enough about this family that they knew how to contact Kathy. Yeah. And. Yeah, it says a lot that. Says a lot, doesn't it? It was such a tight knit community. I mean, I think they lived very close to the newsagency.

30:43 Anyway, yes. So the family were sorry community members were able to get in contact with Kathy and go, oh, this is really strange. We've tried to call the, the, yeah, the family home and haven't been able to get in, you know, find any, any information. But yeah, the store's not open. And so Kathy immediately was like, instead of now what? What do you think you would do? Would you go to the store and open it and try and get in contact or would you go over to their house? I think because from what I remember, she sort of did like the whole, oh, maybe he's sick, like, you know.

31:17 Yeah, but she had keys to the business. I mean, I guess in that scenario, like in like complete, oh God, I think I'd probably go to the business and open up. Yeah, I, I, I've thought about it now and I don't, I don't, I don't actually know what I would do to. I would feel the immediacy of needing to open the business because that was like, yeah, you know, apparently there were stacks of newspapers that had been delivered overnight and nothing had been done. So I would. I think a drawer would go there and keep trying to call him or, you know, and call.

31:46 And be like, oh, if he's sick, yeah, he's just slept in or something. But surely get hold of like of of Lily or, you know, yeah. Well, I think she did actually. I don't even know if she tried. I think all she did was actually, I mean they lived 300 meters. Were we talking 2009, they would have had mobile phones. So I reckon I'd go straight to the store and be trying to but constantly trying to call different phone numbers, like to try and get out someone or maybe split up and say that's what I. Was thinking I'll go to the house, you go and open the shop.

32:13 You go open the shop, I'll go to the house. Yeah, it's split up maybe. Yeah. Interesting. Interesting when you think about it, about that. Yeah, anyway, so. But Kathy and Robert decide to immediately go over to the Lynn family home and apparently the door was unlocked. Yes, So they let themselves in. I think they actually did have a key to the house House. Whether they would have used it at that time or not doesn't really matter. They've gone inside now downstairs, everything looked absolutely fine, untouched, the way the house always looked.

32:43 So they've, they've thought, well, Kathy has thought, I guess if they're unwell they'd still be in bed. So she's gone upstairs. I think she first opened. They walked up at the top of the stairs there was immediately Mina and Lily's bedroom was off to the right so she went. That was the first bedroom that they were open the door for and I was opening that door. All she saw was red. And you can. You could, she said. She could see Lily's arm with a watch. She thought could see her watch on her her wrist, which was sort of out of the bed, and she just immediately knew that Lily was not alive.

33:25 She didn't see anyone else in that room. Not at that point at. That point she has just, I guess in an absolute panic, she's then run to Henry and and Terry's room. They shared a room and she's gone in there and seen an equally horrific scene. Robert's with her at this stage too and he is, he would did go into that room then and he did, I believe touch the boys to check if they were alive. Actually, conjecture around this, we'll we'll talk about that in. A minute, yeah, but he's there, yeah. Yep, he's there.

34:03 Yeah. So with that, Lily dials 000. Did also check Irene's room too as well and found again same similar scene. Yeah, but then they ring 000. Well, well, Kathy does. Kathy Rings 000. You heard that, 000? Call. God, look, I've I've written down here. Don't forget to talk about the Triple O call. Kills me that. Kills me. Fucking kills me. He is awful. He's awful, but she's frustrated. She's frustrating. It is. It is the most frustrating phone call you will probably ever listen to. But I I think, OK, she is obviously obviously in extreme distress.

34:46 Yes, there's a bit of a language barrier when I say that she's got a very thick accent. When she's speaking in English, she's hysterical. She does flick to Cantonese. When I mean look some with English as their second language, I can completely understand. In distress, you revert to your complete. You know your first language. When they 100 translate the call though, she only really she's still not giving more information. She's not, but she only speaks in Cantonese when she's talking to Robert.

35:17 Yes. So in amongst all of this, the Triple O operator is, she basically says something along the lines of I need help. I think my brother's family is dead, basically. Oh, like somebody's killed them. Somebody's killed her or somebody's killed, yeah. And he's like, no, they've died. And what makes you think that? And she's like, I don't know, I don't know. There's blood and and I don't know it's. Like it's like pulling like. It's like pulling him. But then she's also trying to manage Robert because at this point, she's speaking to him in Cantonese.

35:51 And when that's translated, she's he's saying to her in the background, I'm going to go and pick up your parents. Yeah. And she's like, no, no, no, please don't leave me. She doesn't know that the killer's not still in the house. They haven't seen Min at this point. They don't know. Where he is no and I. Terrified she has just seen the most traumatic thing that anyone could ever possibly see in. The translation, he actually says to her, Robert says to her. I'm more scared than you are. Sorry, what?

36:21 What? I don't understand. OK, even if that's true, you're her fucking husband. You're her husband. What why aren't you trying to let stay with her? Say, I mean, if you're that scared that they could stop, say say someone be still be in the home or whatever, and that it's then remove both of you like from the home, not you like I'm leaving, I'm leaving you here. That doesn't make any sense to me. He leaves, yeah, he goes and gets his car and he drives the 50 minutes to go and pick up. Well, he's actually on the phone to the parents and he actually says to them to get on the train, you need to get here.

36:52 And so he was actually telling them to get on the train to come to them. He eventually then changes his mind and decides, no, he'll drive out there to get them because. But I think that that was all of AI don't know. I mean, yeah, we'll get to it, I guess. But yeah, yeah, it's it's very weird. But she I can fully understand the operator like he is badgering her. Like, I mean, it's it's not great. It's so but I understand so uncomfortable. But I get it from the perspective of he's got he's got on route people coming, he's got ambulance and police on their way, but they don't know what they're walking into.

37:26 And so he needs to get information so that these people aren't walking into potentially an axe murderer, you know, kind of scenario. He they need to know is there someone in the room in the in the house with a gun, a weapon, you know, sorts before they go sending in more people into that house. But he cannot get out of her anything that makes sense. There is no information coming out of her that is actually sensical. Eventually towards the end of the call, when you can actually hear the police sirens in in Kathy's phone, like you can hear that the police are on their way.

37:57 Yeah, which I believe police got there before the ambulance did they? You can hear she does start to sort of calm down enough that she's more coherent. Yeah. But then by that point, he's like, oh, they should be at the door now. And then the phone kind of cuts out. Yeah. But then I can imagine that would then just reignite a whole next. I don't know, I I just think you listen to her and you listen to how traumatized she is. It just breaks my fucking heart. Like it's just, it's awful. It's. So uncomfortable to hear so Roberts off picking up his in laws to bring them to the house where they're well at this stage we don't actually know where Min is.

38:45 But we still don't know where he is. Yeah. You know where some of her I don't. Think he'd left just yet because I. Thought the police straight away. Still there. No, OK. Because the police arrived and he was there. Oh. Right. I thought he'd right. OK. Yeah, OK. Yeah. So for a bit later on, he is there. And so when they the police arrive and they walk in and she's explaining that this is Lily in this room and there's the two boys in that room and there's Irene in that room and we don't know where my brother is, right?

39:13 She then starts saying actually look under the doona, look under the doona like. And the police do then lift back the doona cover and they do discover that Min is actually in the bed, but was hidden by the doona cover. And so he was that's when she found that her her brother was also murdered in that same room because as she said afterwards, like it prior to that she was there, there was thought of like was this a murder suicide scenario? Was like, you know, was or was this a murder? Sorry, not murder suicide.

39:45 What had he had the brother murdered all these people and has he left men? Had men murdered men murdered everyone and left, which I find that really interesting that she thought that of her brother immediately in that aftermath of walking into that, that that's where your brain went straight away. Yeah, that's a fair. Point I would probably more go to the fact of like. Where is? Where is he? How has he been taken by these people? Yeah, you know what I mean? Like that's I, that's where my thought would go of my brother, definitely hers immediately went to has he murdered everybody and, and and taken off.

40:18 Yeah. That's curious. Yeah, that's yeah. And that's really interesting. Yeah. Oh, that makes me think different things. And then? So then when they even when they found him, there was still question over whether it was a murder suicide scenario. Was he? Did he still do this? Or it was pretty quickly which? They quickly determined no, there was no evidence of self-inflicted injuries. No one, no one in the house had had self-inflicted injuries, so therefore they were all murdered. They weren't. No one had actually taken their own life in this scenario.

40:48 Yeah. So yeah, but no, Robert was definitely there when they found. So he must have left pretty soon Pretty. Soon after that, he. Left. OK OK yeah, so the police are now looking, you know, they've obviously blocked off the house, set up a crime scene and they're trying to figure out exactly what's happened. They left the bodies in situ for over a day. I think all they were trying to figure out and. Processing all of that information would be just huge. And just the amount like you, some of the photos I've seen, you know, there's so much blood, There's so much even.

41:20 You can see that, especially with the two boys in their room, there was a lot of a lot of things that were displaced. I think those boys really did put up a massive fight. Well, that's what was determined in the autopsy and things that the boys actually so when we get to so that Lily, Lily and Min they found were murdered in their sleep, whereas yeah, the boys they determined actually fought their attacker. Yeah, So what they think happened is that maybe the boys woke up while their mum and dad were being murdered.

41:50 Potentially Iran as well, so. Yeah, yeah, because she had some defensive wounds as well, didn't she? Yeah, on her arms. So yeah, obviously in processing this scene, they're trying to figure out exactly what happened. But the immediate, I guess thought as well was for Brenda because Brendan overseas. Well, even having said that, what the police had to determine too was that her bedroom door had never even been opened. Yeah, so there was blood. There were footprints all throughout, sort of basically from room to room.

42:19 There were the door handles to Henry and Terry's room and the door handle to Auntie, the Irene's room. They both had blood on them, so they could see that somebody with a bloody handprint had opened those two doors. Brenda's bedroom was skipped over. So you, they, the killer would have had to have walked past Brenda's bedroom door to get to Irene's bedroom door. And it was never even open. There was not a bloody shoe print or footprint in there. No. So what? The way that Brenda tells this story, again, incredibly heartbreaking, but I think it's a sign of the times because she actually found out about this on Facebook.

42:57 Which is just terrible. It's just awful. Like I mean. Somebody who she was on the trip with sent her a photo. I can't believe they did this. I just can't believe it either. But dumb 14 year olds like just obviously not thinking things through. So it was a news article that had a photo of her house and it was like family dead or something like that something. And then within that time, the principal of the school that she went to had been notified of the deaths. She'd contacted the teacher in charge of Renew Caledonia and they organized for her to be put on the next plane back to Australia with a with a chaperone from the school.

43:35 And then when Brenda got back to into the airport in Sydney, her auntie, uncle and cousin, along with the police were waiting for her. And they took her immediately into an interview room to tell her what had happened, for, you know, to tell her face to face what had happened. And she said as soon as she saw her auntie at the airport, she said as soon as she saw the look on her face, she knew that it was all real. Like, up until then, she didn't quite believe it. Of course you'd be in denial. Absolutely.

44:03 Yeah. No. Surely something else has happened. Well, probably the she got like one Facebook message like come through of like this thing and she kind of was like, is this like a sick joke kind of thing? And then a second one came through and she was like, wait, what's going on here? But yeah, still didn't really. It wasn't until I think that people like the teachers came and spoke to her that she was like, this is real. But even then, it wasn't real real. Yeah, until she got. Oh, you'd been. Shrunk yeah yeah yeah I'll just how how awful for her to find out that way I. Absolutely horrific.

44:36 The only thing that kind of makes me think, thank God she was sharing a room with her best friend at the time. And so her friend was with her throughout this whole thing. And I just think, oh, thank goodness she wasn't alone. Like, I just feel like that would have just made it that little bit worse. I mean an already horrific situation. So far away too, would be just. It would be, it would be awful. Like I, I know when I was younger and sort of travelling around overseas and like my Peter and I went on a a big trip when we were in our 20s.

45:06 We went to Europe, and I remember thinking at the time like, what would happen if something happened? Like I'm so far away. And I thought, I'm sure everyone thinks that when they travel. Yeah, but I'm so far away to take me a day or more to get back home. Absolutely. I don't know. You've you've always got that thought in the back of your mind. And then, yeah, poor Brenda. What she then ended up coming back to was that her entire family, everyone she lived. Lived with. Yeah. Had been annihilated.

45:33 Yeah, that's just I cut it's it's unfathomable. Absolutely. And at 15, how do you, how do you do that? Like that is just absolutely horrendous. What's terrible is that the worst of it's, I mean, not over, you know, no. Well, the, the police ended up fairly early on setting up strike force in Auburn to investigate these killings because as you said, they very quickly determined that it was they were all homicides That and they needed to figure out what had happened and why it happened and who'd done it.

46:10 Obviously, this was just such a, such an awful thing. Now Brenda was placed in the care of her auntie and uncle. It was decided that they would take over her care because her grandparents live too far away from school. And I guess her auntie and uncle were sort of, you know, close to the age of her parents and probably maybe a little bit more capable. Brenda said that at the time, though, she actually wanted to move back into her family home. She wanted to live there. She wanted to feel connected or close or I can.

46:39 Understand that. But it sort of it, it didn't eventuate that way. She ended up moving in with her auntie and uncle and her cousin. She continued attending the same school. She said her auntie did everything for her in terms of making her school lunches, taking her to all of her extracurricular activities and really trying to support her while also grieving the loss of her brother and, you know, the extended family. And then also trying to support her parents because Min's parents and Kathy's parents, they broke down over this.

47:16 They had they had zero capacity to take on care for Brenda, in my opinion. Oh, yeah, they they could even if they wanted to. I don't think they could have taken that on this. No, broke them. I know that there was like people who like, there was a public funeral for the the deceased in this. And it was commented on that the way that her grandparents were so in such utter grief that, yeah, they were not capable of like, even understanding that there's a young girl here who potentially needs your care.

47:49 Like they, they weren't really taking care of Brenda in that they were worrying about themselves and their own grief, which I'm not. I'm not judging on them, no. But yeah, they were in a state of absolute distraught. I just look at that and I think thank God for Kathy because she really did stand up in that situation and she also then she and Robert continued to operate the business. And well, so in that with their passing, with Min's passing, all, everything that he legally owned went straight to Brenda, even though she's only 15.

48:23 His will was written in the way that it would all go on, go on to his kids. So yeah, with the last remaining heir being Brenda, that all went to her. So she's only 15, though, she can't take on all of those things. So, yeah, Robert stepped in as sort of executor of all of that, I guess you call it. And, you know, he was able to then take all those things until she was going to be of an age where she could, you know, take over those those. Roles or decide what she wanted to do because I think she was even too young to sell the business like they she couldn't have done that I don't think there was some loophole there where she had to wait regardless I'm not quite sure the there's.

49:00 Certainly other things he was able to sell though and stuff. So, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Not sure what to what extent he had control control over things, but yeah, he certainly was. Yeah, basically put in that role of looking out for her financials and things in that. Well, I mean, I guess they maintained her life in that they, she kept going to the same school and kept, you know, stayed in the same extracurricular activities and yeah, they were feeding her and housing her and clothing her and all of that sort of stuff.

49:28 So, and I'm, I'm sure all of that money came out of the estate, but yeah, you know, they, they were facilitating that. Yeah, definitely. This poor girl. Like can you even imagine taking on a 15 year old girl into your home who had gone through such a trauma? I I actually can't imagine how you would cope as your own family unit taking something. 15 year old girl without all that would be hard work. Yeah. Yeah. No, I can only imagine that that would be absolutely so hard. Yeah. But they're like, they're looking at this scene then of like these five dead people.

50:02 Like basically the police sort of determined that there was some interesting elements to this in that Brenda's room was untouched. The person who entered the home need didn't break and enter. They managed to, they potentially used a key or were welcomed into the home somehow, you know, like so there was elements to this that made that it was potentially someone that was known to the family. Yeah. So the police determined that they're well, and the coroner determined that the time of death was somewhere between 2:00 AM and 5:00 AM.

50:33 So that made the police think that whoever gained entry had a key. Yeah, they weren't let into the home, but they were able to access the. Fact that the majority of the people who were murdered were murdered in their sleep too. That there wasn't like an adult who had opened the door and let this person in. They were in their beds still, so no one had come out of their bedrooms and opened the door. So this person was known to the family and that they had a key, but they also knew that Brenda wasn't home.

51:00 Now what what, what what was the reasoning behind? Like, was that just, you know, well, they knew she wasn't there and then that's fine. Or do they know she wasn't there and was a good reason like that they didn't want her to be killed? In this Questions to be answered the the brutality of the murders was very interesting to the police as well. And also the fact that Min was covered up, yeah, that was that was definitely something the police looked into in terms of like a profile for the the killer and what that meant, yes, being that he was the only one who was covered.

51:34 Yes, post mortem, yeah. He, they, they decided the murder weapon was some sort of hammer of some sort, which I mean to not get too into it, but these people were brutally murdered, like with a yeah, with a hammer attacked. They were yes. And so it was very intense, very hands on and very close. Like as in, you know, shooting someone with a whip with a gun or something at a distance is very different to shooting someone up close. Same with, you know, using a hammer or asphyxiating somebody that's contact you're very close up with that person, which is, you know, it, it says a lot about I think the personality or the relationship that that person has and then the also the emotion behind this attack.

52:22 Definitely. It was very personal and the, you know, the manner of death and the reason, like once they found out that they'd been asphyxiated as well as beaten. Like the boys in particular, I think because they were upright and moving around and obviously trying to figure out what was going on. Their deaths were particularly brutal. And I believe Terry, the younger boy sustained something like 12 blows to his head with the hammer. And then with the hammer like object, they don't know that it was a hammer.

52:53 And he was also then asphyxiated, you know, just to really make sure that that he was dead, I think in the end of it. And so, yeah, you're right. The police are like, OK, well, this is this is has the signs of somebody who really knew these people. There was obviously something, a personal vendetta here. And this looks like it was payback for something or it was definitely emotionally motivated. Yeah. So obviously when this all first happened, they immediately, of course, interviewed Robert and Kathy.

53:27 They Kathy conducted her interview, her first interview with the police without an interpreter present. Yeah, Robert decided he wanted an interpreter because he felt that he could speak more freely in Cantonese. So I find that interview really, you can, you can hear them if you, if you want to. I find that interview. So disjointed to listen to and you can definitely tell things get lost in translation because questions that are asked, the answers that come back don't quite match in a lot of instances.

54:03 And they're the things that I want to know about. They're the things that if you know, obviously the police are asking these questions for a reason. They want to know the the answer things like, well, did you go and touch such and such? And in some sometimes he's like, oh, I don't remember. Yeah. Which, OK, I get it. In a traumatic situation, you may not remember. But then later on in the same interview, they asked him the question in a bit of a different way. And he's like, well, no, I told, I told Kathy not to go anywhere near them and not to touch them because they were they were clearly dead and I didn't.

54:36 So hold on. Wait, did you go in there and touch them or didn't you, Or did you hold Kathy back from going in there? Or this is in particular, they were talking about the boys at this time. And I'm like, well, hold on, wait a minute. It's it's like, I don't know. There was there was just some concoction of things going on. And then I think the language that the translating back and forth, I think ship was getting lost amongst all. Of that because the other thing where I think I don't know it's the right time to bring it up or not, but like the fact that he is medically trained, I find interesting whether or not he did touch the bodies.

55:09 Because I would have thought that as a medically trained person, you would try to touch the bodies to assess whether or not they were dead or whether or not he could intervene medically to assist them. I could not agree more, and this is what gets me about the fact that the way Kathy describes it in her first statement is that Robert was always behind her. Yeah, like he followed her in and instead of then going, yes, I'm a medical trained professional and going in and going, you stay out here. Like I get, I get your significant other not wanting you, not wanting them to see things.

55:47 You wouldn't wanna see things. But your training, you think would give way to that and you'd be like, fuck, what can I do here? Yeah, let me go and see if I can find a pulse. Sure. He didn't know. No, you don't know. You look at the blood and you go, yeah, they're probably dead. But as a medical person, you need to like have that determined. Like, I mean, yeah, I, I would, I can't imagine them as comic, not him not going and just literally using two fingers and tech checking for a pulse. Like surely that would be a fairly simple thing for him to do to kind of go, Oh my God, there is a faint pulse here.

56:17 Well, like, quick, let's try and intervene, do something or No, they are absolutely dead. And this is, this is shared. Like we've got. There's nothing I can do to help that. Yeah. Which then you think would also elicit a certain type of response if that was the case. Yeah. None of that actually took. Place no, which I'm not saying that suggesting that anyone was alive at this point I I do believe they were all dead at that point they they were but you know but still you so they were if someone who had never been in that scene would.

56:45 Check. I think they were found at around 9:00 AM and the latest the coroner puts their death is 5:00 AM. So they were definitely all yeah, deceased by then, but he didn't know that. No. Well, well, again. So despite the fact that the police were doing their best to try and figure out what was going on, the investigation was, I guess, slow going in a lot of ways. But the more they looked into it, the more the net kind of started to tighten around Robert. So in sort of May of 2010, the police were able to obtain a search warrant for Robert and Kathy's house.

57:34 Now, a lot of this is because he had been interviewed several times at this point, being that he was the the one to discover the bodies. There were anomalies in his statements. They wanted to clarify things. There's also been some interesting interactions that had been noted. Definitely. Particularly between Brenda and him, where he had like verbally abused Brenda in front of people. People which I find really interesting, in particular in front of the. The principal. The school principal. She had noted she she was actually someone who like was like sort of speaking to the police, sort of saying, you know, when they touched base around how things were going and what people were around and what that.

58:14 She had also been interviewed at one point and she had said that she just felt it uncomfortable the relationship between Robert and Brenda, but she. Said to the police, I think he's the murderer that like very, very early, very early. On yeah, she she literally from I think it was the funeral watch some interactions between Brenda and and Robert and and just that's when she was like, no, I think it's that's that it's him, which is very interesting, very interesting. But again, I mean as police officers, they, they might have may have fully agreed with her at that point.

58:48 I I think they probably did, but they have to find evidence to that's. Right. And they need cause to be able to get a search warrant as well, so. Well, that's, and this is the thing where they, they, I think they had that information and kind of, they immediately went like, right, is, is Brenda safe knowing, thinking that this could be someone who did murder the rest of her family? Is she safe now? They apparently assessed the situation and decided that she was because Kathy was in the home. I, I question all of this and I, again, I understand they need to gather evidence and things.

59:22 You don't want to tip someone off that you're looking at them, you know, prior to you really wanting them to know that you're looking at them. But this was a 15 year old girl in a very vulnerable situation, and they left her in that scenario and just sort of went well, yeah, we're keeping an eye on it. Wait, that's fine. Yeah, I find that really hard. Yeah. To get my head around. I do too. I it's. It's a very interesting thing. But then Brenda has said that she took comfort in being in that home because.

59:54 On a number of occasions that the police did speak to her and asked her how she was going and check in with them. And was she happy there? And. She she kept saying that she wanted to be there with them and she was with family. And as I said earlier, she'd been raised. Upbringing. To be like you, you'd be with family, and that family was where safety was. Yeah, Yep, absolutely. Unfortunately, that's not. Necessarily the case. So we're talking now as I was saying in May of 2010 now the police were able to obtain a search warrant for Robert and Kathy's house and boy, oh boy, did they turn that place inside out.

1:00:32 Oh my God. So they, they took so much stuff that they thought would potentially be evidence they took, I'm talking they went forensically through so much of the house. They went through their books. They went through their when I mean like their financials, they were sort of looking at where they were sitting, how things were happening, how money was exchanging from like how Min was paying Robert. They got really granular in terms of all of that sort of stuff and and really kind of set the scene for exactly what was happening in the lead up to, to all of this.

1:01:10 And what they found was a stain on the garage floor. Now they didn't know what this stain was. It was a dark coloured stain. It was I guess anomaly in the floor in that the rest of the floor didn't have a stain. So they've they've looked at that. They've named it Stain 91, which says to me there were at least 90 other stains. Well, they around the house I think, I think in general in the whole investigation, because I've actually heard an interview with the forensic biologist who found the stain OK.

1:01:40 And she said that they literally that garage, they had literally gone from top to bottom of that garage and. Yeah. Did you see how much? It was in that garage thing. There was Oh my God, there was like no floor space like of sort of a pathway through really anyway, there was so much stuff that they had done all of that and then they left with the floor that she said they found five stains in total on the floor, But this was this particular one became stain 91 was the one that actually that when they because The thing is they what they do at this the crime scene and to test it to kind of go, Oh, this is something because there was probably plenty of stains on the floor.

1:02:14 But whether or not it was something related to you go could be blood, could be blood or could be something related to a crime. They can do minor tests to be able to determine that at the time as to whether or not they can do. Presumptive tests, yeah. Yeah. So there were five that were found that were potentially something taken to the lab was stain 91 that they found to have DNA, a mixture of DNA within it. But as she was saying to me now you probably understand this stuff far more than I do, that there was this.

1:02:45 They didn't do other testing prior. You can do pre testing to kind of determine is it blood? Is it yeah, saliva. Is it, you know, kind of what is it? What kind of bottle of bodily fluid is it? Yeah, they decided to not do that testing because that would waste the minimal such that they had. So then they so they jumped straight to doing the DNA testing. Mm Hmm. Because they had so little. Yeah, it was a tiny scan. Yeah. So they they found within this tiny little like when she said it is a it was a stain.

1:03:14 It was a a scuff, kind of. It literally looks like a scuff. Yeah, she said. It's not. It wasn't a droplet. It wasn't like it had dropped off, you know, a little bit of blooded drops from somewhere. Like I'm not saying it was blood because they don't know, but it wasn't a drop or anything. It was a scuff. Like, I mean, in my mind I'm picturing like say something that was on the bottom of someone's shoe. And it's kind of like wiped off. It's wiped off like it's. So I've just got a picture of it here.

1:03:37 It's basically it's like half a centimetre. It's like half a centimetre wide by maybe 1 1/2 centimetres long. Like it is tiny. Yes, but in that, in that sample there was a mixture of five people's DNA, all of being the victims who were in the house, not in Robert's house, in Min Lin's house. Yep, Min and Lily's house, Yeah, so that says a lot. Doesn't it? Now the other bit of evidence that they found, also linking Robert was the fact that their footprints that they found in the house, there was 24 bloody footprints throughout the home.

1:04:18 Now they were from a size 10 men's shoes. 9. Was it size 9? So it just so happened that Robert also wears the same size shoe, which I mean, many people do. That doesn't mean he's the murderer, But it was determined that it was an ASICS, a particular brand of ASICS that had been discontinued, and he happened to own a pair of that. Now, just real, just really quickly before you get to that. Sorry. Yeah. When the police were able to get the search warrant for the house, they were also allowed to get a warrant to place a listening device and a recording device in the G family home.

1:04:53 So in Robert and Kathy's home. Go on. That's very important. Sorry. Go on. Yes, no. So yeah, they'd already determined that he he had the same size foot. And they were then able to put these listing devices and cameras within the house, which obviously Robert and Kathy didn't know were there. As much as they've got a warrant for them, they don't that the residents were not aware of them being put there. So there was a particular footage that was found where in the very background of the video, so you can see that Robert is doing something and they, you know, you have to sort of enhance it and handset to try to sort of look to see what he's doing.

1:05:33 And it turns out that what he was doing was cutting up a shoebox and an ASIC shoebox, yes, and getting it all wet and everything and getting rid of it. He was. Flushing it down the toilet, Yeah. I mean, why? To block your toilet, Yeah. But yeah, so the police, they and he was saying to Kathy at the time, they were, they were talking, yes, in Cantonese. So she was well aware she could see him doing this and he was saying, well, they're just gonna use this basically against me. Mm Hmm. OK. Yep. Well, if you've got nothing to hide, you've got nothing to hide.

1:06:13 But what that's? Very coincidental that you want. To hear, you know, he's cutting up this box into these tiny little pieces and then all you can hear in the background is flush, flush, fill up, flush, fill up, flush, flush. It took a lot to get rid of a box. By the way, if you ever want to flush a box, takes a lot. Of place, why would you want to flush? Just burn it or something, yes? Why are? You putting it down your toilet? Oh my God, yes, why not burn it? Yeah, then there'll be no evidence, like there's nothing.

1:06:40 Left. Oh, and you're. Not clogging your toilet? No. Again, we don't want to give anyone idea. I don't. Oh my God. Yeah. So yeah, between they've got this bit of evidence, a lot of circumstantial evidence then too on top of that in terms of, you know, a jealousy over the success that men and his family had with news agency and that Robert had not had that kind of success here in Australia. So yeah, a lot of bits and pieces that got put together that they did end up arresting him on the 5th of May 2011.

1:07:14 Two years, almost two years Now. I just want to throw in here with that stain 91 and not something else. This forensic biologist brought up that yeah. So it took two years for them to find that stain. And on that day she arrived at that house to start that process of doing that, the executing that warrant basically. OK. And what she, she, when she arrived, she realized that she'd actually been in the vicinity 2 years earlier on this case because the next door neighbor had called the police and said with the whole of the event of everything that was going on with the Lynn family, she believed that there was a blood stain on her fence.

1:07:57 Oh, so the police went, So she had gone out there and to investigate this and check the fence of this house and they didn't find anything that was blood. But obviously this neighbor had put a few things together and gone. I'm suspicious of the man who lives next door. And could that stuff on my fence be blood? Wow. So does that tell you that there were people who were already thinking? I mean, if the principal was thinking that at that point, the next door neighbors kind of going seems a bit SARS seems SARS this guy.

1:08:29 And you know, yeah, OK, it turned out to not be blood, but it just makes me think that people didn't trust this guy already. Agreed. I mean, I think the principal has a really good foundation for why she thinks that, like the fact that he treated Brenda in front of other people and this is what she was saying. It was so uncomfortable the way he treated her. And then she was like, and that's in front of us. Imagine how it was going on in that home. Wow. To a traumatized 15 year old. Yeah. Just really quickly as well.

1:08:59 I forgot to mention before the police suspect. Oh, actually, no. I'll get. I'll get into that in a minute. No, sorry. No. Go. Good. So obviously, yeah, Robert is arrested. He is charged with five counts of murder at this point. So this is 2011 this unfortunately then I guess the police are still in gathering more evidence. As much as they have charged him and put him in jail, they still want more time to completely investigate this. So it means that there is quite a delay between the him being arrested and then getting to trial bloody 18 months.

1:09:37 It took ages. So we're looking at 2014 before a a date was set for the trial. Now in the process of getting to that trial date, they were sort of they were about to start the trial when Brenda decides that it's time, I guess, or found the right person asked the right question. I don't know what made her come to this conclusion that this was the time to say this, but when she was being interviewed at a point with one of the lawyers, she did confess that or not disclose. I shouldn't say confess. That's not the wrong way.

1:10:12 She's disclosed that Robert had been sexually abusing her from before her family was well before her family were murdered. So this is key evidence again, of like motive to all of this. It just absolutely is horrific. So they can that trial. Just when you think a piece of shit can't be more of a piece of shit for murdering 5 people, yeah, he's then also abusing. His 15 year old and well, and younger, much younger. Yeah, niece, niece, which is just. As if she hadn't been through enough already. Yeah.

1:10:51 God, yeah. So that, so yeah, that trial then is set aside. It's aborted. So they they basically dismissed the jury. They weren't going to reconvene that jury. They had to actually start a. Whole start all over again because this was clearly stuff they needed, they wanted to put into the trial, which they needed to have time to, you know, share that information with the other side, all those sorts of things. You can't just sort of, you know, bring stuff out at random. Yeah. So so they started again another trial in 2014.

1:11:18 Again, the second trial was started but again had to be aborted due to the judge falling. I'll which wouldn't you just know it like bloody hell, it's just horrific. So they got set for another trial in 2015. So for this is the third trial. Now this trial does go ahead in full. Brenda's evidence is given. There's also evidence from a particular witness, a which we can get into as well. The evidence that we've presented in terms of the, the blood stain 91 or sorry, I shouldn't say Bloodstone, we don't.

1:11:56 If it was blood, the stain 91, all those things were presented, but how? Unfortunately, the jury could not come to a unanimous decision. So they just couldn't agree. Hung jury, it completely hung jury. So they had to abort and start again as well. Yeah. So do you want to talk a little bit about witness AI mean he comes into the next trial as? Well, yeah, so he he did present again at the next trial. So the next trial was held in December or started in was it December of 2015? I think you're right, so I just changed my page.

1:12:27 Oh, no, sorry. June of 2016, the fourth trial begins. Yeah. Now thankfully, I mean, this one went, I think this one went for about 7 months at this point. But the so witness A was also called to testify again. Now witness A testified that while he was playing ping pong in prison with G, with Robert, he showed him how to press a specific pressure point on the neck to stop a heart or incapacitate a person. And he said this is a way to asphyxiate somebody and yeah, really incapacitate them, if not kill them.

1:13:12 Now Robert had back in China had martial arts training, so he was. Also an ENT. Yeah. And an ENT, so he had had knowledge of these things. That's not. It's not unlikely that he knew this. Stuff like this is very highly likely that he knew that. Yeah. I mean, it's four of the five victims had signs of neck compression or asphyxia on autopsy. And the Crown argued that it was a direct application of his medical expertise. Yeah, to ensure that these people were actually dead following being struck with the Hammerlock device.

1:13:50 Yeah, Yep. So witnessed a who was he say he was another prisoner in this in the jail with Robert, obviously, but he had been convicted of armed robbery, drug offences, assaulting a police officer. He wasn't a good person. Let's just put that Oh no. However, one aspect of his the of who he was was that he had had basically spent not consecutively, but various times in his life. He'd been in prison for around about 18 years in total. But he was sort of coming towards the end of his sentence of, of his time.

1:14:25 And he was actually at a point where he was at this point that he was put in maximum. He was in maximum security with Robert C, which he didn't. He was actually at a point where he was had the chance to be able to be moved to minimum security. But he because he started this relationship with Robert, they decided to keep him in this maximum security. So he committed to them and said, OK, I'll forego life of luxury over at minimum security to stay here and keep this relationship being built with Robert and get more information.

1:14:58 So I find that interesting and of like potentially because it's always interesting to have fellow inmates. There's definitely a conference. As you were saying, Wentworth lag on someone. Yeah.

1:15:12 Yeah. So I mean, so it's an absolute no, no, The the witness has said that at this point he would have been. Well, he gave a fairly graphic image of what could happen to him if it was found out that he was sharing information about a prison, a prisoner with the police. Yep. So he was was putting himself in jeopardy doing this because he was actually taking in according devices. He was wearing a wire when he was having conversations with Robert. So he took a massive risk to do that. But, I mean, it's always, you know, juries don't generally believe inmates because they do get benefits from doing this stuff, too.

1:15:48 Yeah. He had struck a deal that if he was going to stay in the maximum security and not head over to minimum security, he'd get an extra $500 a month in his, you know, pay. So that's considerable. He was also going to get, you know, some time taken off of his, of his time in prisons. So, you know, he was definitely getting benefit out of doing it, but he was risking his life, too. I I do definitely think that's worth noting. Yeah. Yeah, but he but, but having said that, OK, yes, he was risking his life probably, but he was sort of also under the protection of the guards.

1:16:26 They would have known what was going on it. Wentworth. I know, but I mean, they've got a duty of care to the prisoners as well, though I think they would have been watching this like a hawk. Well, I don't know that the guards would have known that he was doing this necessarily. I think they would have known. Yeah, no, yeah. I don't know, maybe. Maybe I, I, I'm not sure. Yeah, but he this witness, I also said that he was having a discussion. So in order to kind of get Robert talking about all of this, he brought up the fact that metal.

1:16:57 He was talking about the fact that metal was actually a porous substance. Yes. And you can never actually fully get rid of DNA like from a hammer or something like that. If you've used that in a, you know, somebody's DNA is always going to be found. Yeah. And witness A said that. And I believe this was actually part of the recorded conversation. Yeah. It was that the seemed obsessed with how you would hide DNA within a metallic object. Actually, the quote is how would it look if the murder weapon turned up during the middle of my trial with someone else's prints on it?

1:17:35 Yeah, yeah. Yeah. He's yeah, so. He's he's he was questioning things. Yeah. So the what the police actually think happened in terms of the murder weapon. This is what I was getting at before. They think that when Min went to pick up his in laws on that morning, on the on that Saturday morning, that he actually used that time to dispose of the murder weapon because what Min thought would happen. This is again. All according sorry. Sorry. I mean Robert. Sorry. Oh, my God. Sorry. I mean Robert. Sorry.

1:18:08 What Robert thought was going to happen on that morning was that they would probably go, as you said, to open the news agency and somebody else would go and find. Well on this recording he was recorded saying I didn't, I didn't want for my wife to find. Them. Yes, he didn't. He did. He did. No, Sorry. Sorry. He didn't want to be the person who was there finding them. No, because he thinks that that would make it look like he had done it. Yeah. So he didn't want to be there that morning. Like he wasn't really intending on being in that house at that time, but that's how it.

1:18:42 Obviously he thought it played out. He thought it would play out differently. Yeah, but he thought that his wife would go there and find them and he wouldn't. So which I just. Then why did he go? But what a what an absolute piece of. Shit, he's a total fucking. For like you want your wife to go and find her brother and his family dead like that? Like you are gonna put her in that position. Oh God no. He doesn't care. No, but yeah, so he was, you know, on record of saying that, which is an admission of it's a confession of being involved.

1:19:09 Definitely they, well, the prosecution certainly took it that way. Yeah, yeah. But yeah, so with the hammer then it would did he like dispose of that, as you say, when he was on his way to pick up the grandparents, that may be why he changed his mind from telling them to get the train. But he kind of went oh, shit, actually my good opportunity to go and get rid of that. But having said that, he clearly in this what what? So that what they do is they they set up like an undercover cop by the name of Harry who the this witness A says he knows this bloke who works in like a Mortuary or something like that where so he could get DNA from a dead person, say, and then they could put it on the weapon.

1:19:49 So yeah, what he's basically saying there is that he knows where the weapon is and he can produce it at any moment, which I find really, really interesting. So he knows. It's not like he has then piffed it somewhere that it can't be found or disposed of it in a way that it cannot. Be gone and hidden it somewhere. He's hidden it somewhere and he knows where that is. Do. You think that's like a trophy in some way or what do you think that's better? Is it a control? Thing just a control thing. Yeah, I'm not sure I. Don't know, but he's definitely admitting that it's somewhere that it can be found.

1:20:19 Yep. And that he could go get it and he could potentially put this DNA on it then and then randomly have it show up. Yeah. Whoa, whoa. So, yeah, this is all, I mean, this is all I'm recording. This isn't just like witness A's word. Yeah. It's. I mean, I know that there is some level of entrapment, like offering this up, but it's I think it's very convincing to me personally that he is he's admitting to being at fault in some way with all of this. Yeah, it was. So there was a favorite that came out with witness A. But, I mean, obviously it's always controversial when a prisoner becomes a witness and lags on one of their fellow inmates.

1:21:01 Yeah. The other thing he admitted to witness A apparently was that he had, that he said something to that, to G, to Robert, like, oh, your wife is no problem. You told her. You told me before when the murder happened, your wife sedated and Robert replied, yeah, So he admitted there I guess in I guess he's being LED in that statement though, like it's he didn't actually say the words. I succeeded Kathy like, but he has agreed that this that's what happens. So that way he could leave the house, commit these murders and return, you know, we're talking like, as you said, between 2:00 and 5:00 AM somewhere in there.

1:21:43 Hours, because then he's had to come home. Yeah, they lived close, but still. He's had to obviously clean up, clean up, remove the clothes that he was wearing because he would have been. Covered in blood, yeah. And Kathy, for Kathy not to wake up because wake up in her first. Yeah, in her first interview with police, they talk about that. Do you sleep in the same room as your husband? Yes. Would you notice if he got up to go to the toilet? Yes, I would, but on this particular. Night but that's where she changed his her statement to I find her a little bit interesting.

1:22:18 I I've got some question marks over. Here I've got a lot of question marks over here, but then I also wonder about her motivation. Yes, I do too. Knowing him. She So in one statement she she initially says something along the lines of I, he was, he was beside me all night. And then another time I think she said something like, I don't know, like, Oh no, she said originally I assume he would, he was or something like that. And then later she really doubled down on it, said Oh no, he definitely was with me all night.

1:22:51 That that's that's right how it happened. Yeah. So, yeah, when she was first asked, she was like, I don't know, I slept through the whole night. And yeah, yeah, I mean, we always sleep in the same room. Yeah. To then subsequent interviews, she was like, he was definitely, he definitely slept with me the whole night. Now let's talk about Kathy a bit now, because she's, as you said, she's really interesting. I feel for her in so many ways because I don't think she knew initially that her husband had done these murders.

1:23:22 You think so? I don't know. I don't think she did. The reason for that is that the reaction? True. The reaction. I think you could not fake that. No, I can't agree with that, but I, I there's something weird about. So when, when they, the police arrive and they still don't know where Min is. Yep, right. And the, and so they're looking. Apparently, according to the police, they were fairly convinced that Robert told Kathy, tell them to look under the donor. Tell them to look under the donor. Yeah.

1:23:56 And then Kathy says look under the donor. Yeah. She then now won't admit that. Not anymore. But isn't it? Isn't it on a police recording? Device. I think so. I think it's on one of the body. Worn cameras or something like that. There is solid evidence. Solid evidence to it, Yeah, multiple people overheard. It yeah, maybe it was. There, it was actually recorded. It's one or the other, I believe. I can't. I just know police believe that's what happened. Yeah, but she does not tell that story now. So why are you covering those sorts of things up for him?

1:24:28 Yeah, see, this is what I want to talk about because I think I, I genuinely don't think Kathy knew that he was going to kill them or anything like. That no. But I think I think she I think about the way that Robert was with Brenda and the fact that he was sexually abusing her. And did Kathy know something about that? Because, you know, Cog, she must have had an inkling maybe. Yeah. What abuse was being then perpetrated upon Kathy from Robin and their son? I don't know that nothing's come out about that.

1:25:07 But then the way that she's so fiercely defends him to when she to this day, to this day, when she's seen that scene, is it is it a psychological? Is she trying to preserve herself? Is it psychological? Like is she protecting herself by going on? And my husband could never have done that because I the thought of that I couldn't get over like I couldn't live with that. Or, or is she protecting him because she's afraid of him and she's afraid that he's just going to do the same thing to her should the opportunity arise?

1:25:43 And should she go against him the. Only thing of that is when you think, OK he's now, I guess we can get to that point that he is in jail what you want and go OK well now I can come out and tell me. Stories she actually even stir up in court and said he's innocent, He's innocent. I can't believe you've convicted him. Yeah, I don't know. To me that screams survivor of abuse. I mean, at the end of the day, abusive people who are under that kind of abuse will side with the abuser because it's safer and I think psychologically to separate herself from that constant abuse.

1:26:20 I don't know that you can just do it at the snap of a finger. Like, you know, he's in jail. I can now just, you know, now I can speak my truth. I think that there's like a an ongoing impact of that, that she can't move from, that he can still have power somehow, even from jail. Oh, yeah. Oh, I, I don't doubt that. Yeah, if, if, if he is, if he is that which I mean. Was only only I mean, the kind of murder he did is someone who has a lot of rage. And then this is what I'm saying, like, even the way that the school principal saw the way that he dealt with Brenda, who's really vulnerable at the time, she just lost her entire family, and yet he was still treating her horrifically in front of other people.

1:27:05 Yeah. To then think about what that is like behind closed doors. Of course, Kathy would have been copying it too. I mean, I do find Brenda interesting and her like, and how she speaks about her uncle, you know, their relationship. Yeah. But again, abused 100%. Yeah. And so that's very and then his I guess there's a layer of a bit of like culture over that as well, you know, and that whole idea of, you know, family is the most important thing and you don't speak I'll of your family and they're the only people who support you.

1:27:33 And then unfortunately they've that's who has done this shit to her. It must be so unbelievable to comprehend. So I have give her all grace in the world in terms of understanding that for herself. And I believe, I mean, I know she's come out of it the other end now, but like, that's that's where I can't get my head around Kathy not being able to go, OK, let's put the murders to the side and go, this is my niece. And he treated her like that because it regardless of who murdered she. I mean, I think at the end of the day, he and and Kathy have come to terms with the fact that Brenda's told the truth.

1:28:14 It's the murders that he's not. He says he's innocent of, I believe that he's admitted to the sexual assault sort of stuff, so. He doesn't. She. No, he doesn't deny that. So how can how can Kathy not still go? Nah. Fuck. Yeah. I'm not standing up for any of this. I'm. I know this about you. I know that about you. You know, put it all together. Yeah. You're capable of doing the other thing too. But she hasn't. She's totally not. He's innocent, I think. The the only way I can justify it in my mind is that it's her is victimhood the right, the right like it's it's that lens that she's looking through it in that she has to be on the other side.

1:29:03 Like what if he got out like? Absolute, pure loyalty. Yeah, like, what if he got out? You know, she's probably trying. It's self preservation in a way. Like, yeah. Well, I mean, there is a small, very small minority of people, and I'm talking like, you know, Reddit threads kind of stuff that believe that he also is innocent. And the reason mainly for thinking he could still be innocent is that Kathy thinks he's innocent and that a wife would know. And I just Nah, I can't, I can't come at it. There's no I think there is enough evidence here.

1:29:35 I know people pick apart stay in 91. I know, but then I I look OK, let's even not count that. I mean to me that. I think the circumstantial evidence is. Enough is enough. Agreed. And the fact that he has system. He's basically abused Brenda. Yep, sexually abused Brenda. Yep. Then systematically ridded everyone else in her family, got rid of them. Any obstacle or anything to it. Like maybe did Min find out? Did I don't know, did someone find out about it? I reckon. That for himself. He just gave himself unfettered access to her.

1:30:12 Yeah, of course she was going to go to them. The other nail in the coffin in terms of circumstantial evidence that I find is that so in all this, as we said, he got control of the finances and things right? He evicted his laws from the house that Min owned. Yep, so they were completely homeless. Literally. Literally homeless now. The thought process here is that he did that so that Brenda couldn't be taken from their home and given to the grandparents. Even if Brenda complained and said I don't want to live there anymore.

1:30:46 Because they didn't. Have the grand stable home. Have a stable home. Yep, Yep. What a piece of shit. Why? How does Kathy? Stay that. That's what I think. And this again, to me speaks to, to the fact that he just has her totally under his control. Because Kathy, when I you can see interactions, there's this actually, there's this really sort of touching photo that you can see from the funeral where Kathy is comforting her parents. And I find that it, it's very genuine. Like she is, she's distressed, she is distraught herself.

1:31:26 Her elderly parents are there and she's trying, she's physically trying to hold them up basically. And it's, it's a really heartbreaking photo. And so I think again, I think she would have her parents best interests at heart and if she, if she was able and capable of ensuring they were able to keep their home and all of that, she would have. But she couldn't. I I I honestly believe she couldn't. No, I just. It frustrates me. It's horrific, it's horrible. And I, I think Kathy's a victim in this too.

1:32:12 But then, but then the thing, the thing that kind of gets me on her as well is I feel as though, and I don't, there's no proof of this, this is just my own opinion, but I'm like, I feel like she must have known about the abuse with Brenda and did nothing about that. And to me, I actually can't come at that. And is there a level of her going on now we get all that money too?

1:32:33 I hadn't I you know what that thought hadn't actually crossed. Maybe she was equally maybe her and Robert had been talking to each other going gets bullshit that he's been successful success when we haven't been you know maybe there were both my. Thoughts with him, my thought never went there. I was always just like, oh, Robert was doing like scheming this in his own little mind. I don't know. I reckon she might have been a bit in on it, maybe not in on it and murdering them. No, I don't know. I think they'd been manipulation beyond just.

1:33:00 Yeah, jealousy there too. I. Think jealousy there, too, from her on her brothers, you know, jealousy of her, jealous of her brother and what he had. Yeah. Because it's like, to me, she's walked into that house and seen that horrific scene, and her brain could immediately justify, oh, my brother's done this to his family, but she can't imagine that her husband could have done that. Yeah, that's weird to me. There's there's then there's inbuilt hate for your brother. Yeah, that's actually a good point.

1:33:36 I hadn't thought about it from that perspective. I honestly like to my core couldn't walk into a scene like that and assume my brother could have could do that, you know, like never. Whereas she did so there's got to have been some sort of negative thoughts of her to her brother. Or did Robert? I think Robert planted it. I think Robert. So then again, yeah, that's the control of him. Like she has to believe him and go with him. Yeah, yeah, it's. So complicated I think like.

1:34:10 Yeah, Yep. So ultimately, I mean, obviously we got to trial 4, which I mean, I just, I mean that alone is like more abuse, isn't it to poor Brenda. Brenda testified in three of the four trials. Yeah. And her like she was a critical witness in all of this in that she was able to give a lot of context around the family setup and all of that sort of thing. And. By the time we got to the fourth trial, the relationship between Kathy and Brenda had completely broken down, so they didn't have a relationship by the time they got to this point anyway.

1:34:42 Which is so sad. It's sad and the. Way Brenda still talks about her auntie to this day, like she still has a lot of love and respect for her even though she's supporting. The murderer of her family, that's oh God, that's mentally fucked it up anyway, Yeah, that's. Brenda just seems like a very forgiving person. She's a very lovely, lovely person. Yeah. But yeah. So she was able to provide testimony for the prosecution. Yeah. About the layout of their house and like the fact that Robert knew the house inside out and back to front end and been upstairs, you know, like in some people's houses, maybe if all of the bedrooms are upstairs, as a visitor, you probably would never go upstairs, you know?

1:35:26 Absolutely. But she was able to testify to the fact that that wasn't necessarily the case. Like Robert knew and and Kathy, they both knew the layout of the upstairs of the house. That was not something that was sort of like a private area that no one ever went. Because there was that ingrained in each other's lives that that says a lot to me. That's like, you know, friends that come over, you know, can not go upstairs. But family did. Like it was, yeah. She was probably, you know, they're probably in each other's bedroom bedrooms, you know, showing outfits that, you know, Lily had bought and things like that and being family.

1:35:55 Yeah. Oh, gosh, yeah, he was eventually he was sentenced to five consecutive life sentences. So love that no chance of him saying the light of day. Thank God when there's. Concurrent sentences. It just irks he's so bad. Yeah, Yeah. So, yeah. But I mean, at the end of all of this, I mean, as I say, Brenda, she has come out of this as good as you could hope for in, in all aspects really. I mean, it's just absolutely tragic. So we're talking 7 1/2 years between the murders occurring and then the end of the trial, the fourth trial.

1:36:30 Finally getting 22 I think or 23 when the. That's the final. That's a. That's a huge amount of time for. That's that's your formative years. Absolutely. So she was quoted coming out of the she read a statement after the trial, which just broke me when hearing her say that, you know, that it'd been 7 1/2 years since she'd had her parents and her, her siblings and her auntie and all these things that she'd done in that time. She'd finished a uni course, you know, she'd graduated from high school, she'd finished her uni course.

1:36:57 She'd, you know, started a life for herself in that time or without them there being there for all those really amazing parts of her life, which I just that's that's just where this is all so freaking senseless and awful. But she's now set up a like she, she supports other people who have been through traumatic circumstances. So she's she's really been able to use her experience to now help others in these circumstances in similar circumstances. So that's amazing for her to be able to do that because I sense from her she's a very private person.

1:37:35 Yeah. And so coming out about these sexual abuse, which at first was actually kept under wraps, it was not allowed out to the public that. Aspect of the trial her identity was her oppressed because she was. She was under the. Age of 18, yeah, when the when the abuse was happening to her. So it got to a point where she was able to become public with that, that that was her in that in the trial. And I think that there's been a lot of, you know, she's done a lot of growing within that and being able to consolidate for herself what that means and what, you know, what she can do with that knowledge and power now and herself.

1:38:12 And use that, you know, in advocacy work and in supporting other people, other victims or survivors. Yeah, Yeah. These extremely traumatic situations. Yeah. She's a very impressive young. She really is. So she Co founded the Survivor Hub. It's called so the organization for survivors of sexual assault and trauma. So the organization helps survivors connect with others who understand the legal process and recovery journey. So it really all power to her doing all of that work. It's it would be easy for her at all to relive all that stuff, but to know that she can help others through it is amazing in.

1:38:49 February of 2021, Robert applied to the NSW Court of Criminal Appeal for like for an appeal against his sentence specifically and that was dismissed. His, his lawyers at the time argued that the DNA evidence was flawed, which is what we sort of alluded to before. But the three panel, the three judge panel unanimously decided that it stood up and he wasn't allowed. So he's actually not allowed to appeal now. That was his final. That was final. Great. Yeah, and so he will be in maximum security prison for the rest of his life.

1:39:27 And may he rot. The. Absolute fucking piece of shit A. 100% I couldn't agree more. Yeah, he is where he belongs, that is for sure. I mean God, So just awful. I mean those young boys. I mean, God, I just can't. I I can't either like a 12 year old and a nine year old and they were trying to defend themselves and they've probably just heard their parents getting murdered like come. On the thought of like the fact they knew him when he walked to that room, they would have known who it was. It was attacking them.

1:39:57 Do you? Reckon immediately they probably felt relief seeing him thinking that there's. Something going on here, like, Oh my God, there is something happening and like, oh, can you? I can just, oh, just it. Breaks me. That's like the sort of what their final. Oh yeah. Oh God, yeah. To realise then. Oh no, this bad person is our uncle. Oh. Yeah. Oh God. That's just. Horrible. Absolutely. Oh my God, not not good. I feel like at the very least, you know, I mean, the fact that he got the consecutive life sentences and you won't see the light of day like you won't see step a foot outside of prison at all ever is absolutely brilliant.

1:40:42 But that doesn't help, does it, in terms of what Brenda has to go through and live through for the rest of her life. I mean, yeah, it's as much as we call that justice. I really don't call it isn't justice, is there? There is no justice. No justice. Brenda talks about how, you know, she's really lucky to have a wonderful network of friends and their families who invite her to Christmas dinners and stuff like that. And I'm like, you don't even have someone to have Christmas dinner with. No. You know she's got no.

1:41:08 Family at all anymore. I mean, that's just, I mean, I, I saw articles where they called her an orphan and it's like, it's awful to say that she's an orphan. And orphan. Yeah, I, I, it's almost doesn't, it doesn't cover it, does it? I mean, her entire family's been annihilated. And I, I include Kathy and even the grandparents to a certain extent in that because of the way everything kind of panned out. But. Yeah, yeah, just awful. But but yet she's she's such an incredible human that she's turned that into a positive, like the fact that she's even on the straight and.

1:41:42 Narrow. Ohh my. God, how I know it just it's a testament I think, to her early years upbringing. Yeah, from her mum and dad. Yeah, I know there was an, an interview with the principal, with her school principal who like said like she just cannot wait to be invited to her wedding. Yeah. And then, you know, and then maybe a baby shower and all these things, these other. And I love that she's got people in her life, you know, when her her family, her parents aren't there for those moments that she has got people around her who are, you know, eager to be there for that, for her for those moments.

1:42:10 So, you know, at least she's, she's definitely got, you know, well. Nothing will ever replace the loss to the loss of her family, but. Now she can choose a family who will support her through those things. Because, right, Buckstick Robert can go rot in jail for the reverend. He's not family. No. Oh, God, no, No, no, no, no, no. God, no. All right, all right. Thank you for joining us for another episode. Make sure if you would like to win a merch pack, please. I think this might be the last week that you can jump on and join our Patreon.

1:42:43 There's an extra episode every month over there. It's $5 a month. And yeah, for this, for this month, you go into the draw to win a merch. Match pack yeah, make sure you sign up before the 4th of June and you'll go in the draw or. That's it. Visit our website if you want to check out our merch at 2 Crime besties.com/merch and it takes you to our Red Bubble merch page. So if you want to, you know, go and have a bit of a browse and see what's over there, go. Yourself a bit of absolute piece of shit.

1:43:10 Yeah, definitely apartment in this in this episode for sure and if you. Want to come back for next week's episode, which we are doing an amazing episode. I'll tell you in a second what that is, but you need to hit that follow button on whatever app you are using. We really need you guys to do that. That's really gonna help us get out more because we really need that at the moment. So just hit that follow button in Spotify, Apple, whatever app you're in, hit that button and then you'll be able to come back next week and listen to our episode on Oscar Pistorius and thinking.

1:43:40 This is I think this was one of my ones. I'm like I really wanna do this case. Wanna sink my teeth into this one? Yes. I can't promise that I won't attempt a South African accent. Oh, and the car park. Park your car on the gross. I need my brother to come over and do it. He's freaking amazing at it. Anyway, have a great week everyone. Absolutely stay curious, crying besties. Bye.