Episode 89 - Robert Hansen: The Butcher Baker Part 2 of 2

0:15 Welcome guys to Part 2 of our Butcher Baker episode for another week. Here we are, Meg. We are. We're still here. We're still here. We're still here recording 2 episodes in one day. So you know, by the magic of podcasting, this is actually being played a week later. It's not my birthday anymore, but it is my birthday. How does that work? No joking, I kind of know how this all works. One of us better.

0:48 Yeah, right. So you've had your birthday by the time it comes to this. Tell us how you're Well, we know you're about to celebrate, but what are you doing for your birthday? Nothing major this year, keeping it low key. You know, I celebrated my 40th last year. We can't. So no locate that one this year. Yeah. So just hang out with family. Tomorrow afternoon we're having just going around to Mum's place and having dinner and stuff all together. That's nice. It'll be nice. We're gonna go out. But then, like, it's Mother's Day this weekend, too.

1:17 So crazy. It's just, yeah, we actually all decided we just really wanted just quiet at home this year for that sort of stuff. So for many reasons. Yeah. So we're just gonna do that tomorrow afternoon after sports and shit. So yeah, yay, yay. I mean, I'm tonight meant to be going to footy training. Which Obama? My kids are sick. And when you told me that, I was like, silver lining. I mean, no one wants their kids to be sick, obviously, but far out. The silver lining of that is you don't have to go and stand out in the freezing cold.

1:48 And I think it's gonna be wet. Yeah, tonight. I had already flagged it with my son last night saying like if it's raining tomorrow, if I was sort of like, if it's not raining, I don't mind so much. Yeah. So if it's raining, I think we might can it 'cause they're also missing footy. We're not playing on the weekend. Yeah, for other reasons. But I was like, I think I can skip this one and it's my birthday. It's your. Birthday. I sort of tried to bribe him, like we're still gonna do this anyway. But I said, you know, well, because if we don't go, maybe we'll just, we'll go out for dinner and have to get it away, get a bit take away or something, get something, you know, and go, maybe we'll go eat in somewhere, you know, like, you know, Yeah, nothing too fancy because, well, my kids.

2:25 Just anywhere with kids chips. Might see if I can find something on the menu. So yeah, well, I thought we'll make it. Maybe do something like that tonight. Just nice. Three. That'd be nice. That sounds lovely. The boys have, yeah, they'll, they'll treat me nice tonight. So I'm sure they will they do this. Have they given you a present? No, not yet, no. Tonight. Oh no, that's kind of have because my, my tattoo was my present from them for my birthday. So yeah, we have already done that. So that's strict, but they've also got some other things, so you'll have some gold tonight they'll be able to text you with.

2:57 Oh, I I actually can't wait. I friggin love that shit. I love it when kids think of things on their own. I just love what they come up with. And combined with who they go with to shop for things, things, it'll go well. It'll it'll be so it'll be gold. Excellent. I love it. I absolutely love it. Yeah. So I think I spoke about I definitely spoke about in last weeks episode that we went away to Halls Gap. Yeah, Kent, right. And did this hike and coming down I'm like, Oh my God, my knees are crunchy.

3:26 Oh my, crunchy. Everyday, yeah, doesn't have to be a buddy. I'm like. Oh, and I just bloody hate it. It's just such an uncomfortable, awful, weird feeling. Yeah. So I started looking into like, what can I do, you know? Anyway, some a few treatment options came up and I'm gonna give a couple of different bits on the tumour though. Well, one of my work colleagues also suggested the turmeric. Yeah, OK. I might give it a go. It's fantastic. I'd swear by it. OK, yeah, OK. Takes a while to kick in. You gotta be on a.

3:55 Consistency, I think. I think from everything I've read, no matter what supplement you take, consistency is the key. Yeah. Taking it every single day. Yeah. So you know how the algorithm, you know it, it reads everything. So I'm listen to everything. Listen to everything. So exactly. So I'm on the socials a few days later and this this an article came up and it was it was specifically the headline of it was something along the lines of for your perimenopausal crunchy knees and. AI ING even like.

4:29 I know it was like it's AI ING the the perfect title just for me. Win. Yeah. Oh, wow. And it's like scientists have now actually discovered the ability to Brock block this certain protein that leads to accelerated cartilage loss due to fluctuating hormones in perimenopausal and menopausal women. Right. And there have been some very early studies. So we can't get too, too, too excited yet because it's probably a few years away, but it looks like there may be something you can take that'll block the thing that's causing our cartilage to breakdown and the crunchy knees to start.

5:05 So imagine that that. 'D be amazing, but can yeah. I need to rewind time though. It's already done. There's no cartilage love. Problem. Yeah, we need to be able to rebuild the cartilage actually maybe maybe that. You can't, can you? At the moment, Like I mean. I've I'm sorry, I've actually written it down here. It has even shown to help regenerate lost cartilage. Imagine that. OK, so it can reverse time basically. Yeah, I don't. Look, this was on social media, so take it's a grain of salt. Can I be a Guinea pig for it?

5:33 Yeah, I'll. I'll be in the study. Please please please. Oh God, yeah, I'd give anything. I'll have my crunchy fucking knees, I know. It's such a horrible feeling. It is gross like a great. And it's like worse and I swear to God it like it's a bit weather, you know, like related, because I find at the moment it's worse and it's like over the summer it's not so bad. And at the moment it's really bad and think, yeah, like, you get that cold. Everything's kind of like tightening up and creaking a bit bit more in the old weather.

5:59 Here comes the rain here anyways. The rain again, if you can hear it in the background, it's actually pretty heavy. It is my goodness, the. Weather all over the show but no football for me so I'm happy. You can rain all you want. That's really mean because I have to go and I can't have a wine until I get home because Peter's out tonight. I was. Supposed to say to send Peter. Yeah, well, I normally I do. Yeah, I'm not. I know this. One like normally I'm down there on my own. Yeah, yeah. Dad goes.

6:25 Yeah, that's a good dad job because he's normal. He normally does work from home on a Friday. But one night where I would do the whole like, you go and I'll stay home and cook dinner. Yeah. Yeah, no worries. Whatever you want, Yeah. Oh, it's worth it. Totally worth it. Yeah. Oh God. Not tonight. Need to talk about something though. You messaged me during the week. Well, someone messaged us on the socials, I think, asking us about whether or not we had watched a particular. Document. Oh yeah. God, I didn't know where you were going there.

6:52 I could. See that on your face? And I'm like, oh, I'm gonna bring this on it. No, it's. The other way around. That this is great. So someone had messaged us saying, had we seen the documentary Should I Marry a murderer? And you said to me, if you get time this week, jump on and and check it out. And I did that very night. I'm like, oh, yeah, I'm down for this. Yeah. And funnily enough, it was hilarious that I I got set up and putting it on. Well, first of all, I got shamed by my bloody fire stick.

7:19 I messaged you about. I don't know what its problem was 'cause you know you've got the the blue button and you talk into it and I use that all the time when I'm looking for Dockos and that sort of thing 'cause I don't necessarily what know which. What to search for or whatever? Yeah. So, you know, this week I did the whole Robert Hanson, like, you know, sort of thing and just see if there's any dockos or because it pulls up YouTube things, yeah, or whatever. So yeah, I did the whole like, should I marry a murderer into my remote?

7:42 And bitch comes back to me and goes, I don't think I'm in a place to search to to offer you information on that. I'm. Rude. Rude. I think you should be telling me. No, no, probably not a great idea. But then following that, I started watching very briefly and next thing I thought my kids were done and I sleep in bed, but no, they weren't. And one comes toddling down the stairs and Mace comes in. So I paused and because I've got cheap ass Netflix, it comes up with an ad on the screen and the show that you're watching sort of just a cut of it said should I marry a murderer?

8:16 And Mace comes down and literally reads that off the screen. And before he says anything else to me and just looks at and he goes, I'm tipping no. And then goes he says to me, actually, if I was you, maybe if he was handsome.

8:38 Thanks for having me back, mate. Thanks. Darling, thanks, darling. It's not all about looks all the time, but yeah, thanks. Thanks. Thanks. Ohh, that's classic. All the things that come out of their mouths sometimes, like where? Where you gonna come from? No. So I don't know where I love it. I love it so good. Alright, let's yeah, let's have a chat. What did you think? First of all? So it's a three a three parter. It's parter. Easy to watch. Very easy watching. Yeah, I mean, although the accent at times, they're obviously Scottish so.

9:10 But I love. I love the accent. Yes, the main woman in it whose voice you hear most of her. She's quite easy to understand, really. Most of the time. Yeah. Yeah. So. Oh my God. Holy shit. Holy. I'd never heard this story before, like of this at all, had you? Ever. No, I had no idea. Absolutely no idea. So should we give a OK, spoiler alert? You don't want to know anything because we're gonna Docker. Go watch the Docker. Skip ahead a minute or two because if you don't want to hear any spoilers. But clearly, like, I mean, from the title, you know, a few things.

9:43 You can make some assumptions here that someone murdered someone. Yeah. So for those of you who don't want to go and then watch the three hour commitment of, of watching this, basically this, she's she's an incredibly intelligent woman. She's a medical pathologist. Yeah. So she's a student or no? She's coming the end of it. She. Was coming, yeah, I think she was in her residency maybe and she was pursuing path of pathology, forensic pathology specifically. So she was doing autopsies and and you know, a lot of post mortems for various reasons on different people.

10:15 And so you need to be a medical doctor to be able to do that and then specialize in pathology. So very well educated. Absolutely. She apparently she has a photographic memory. And I was like, ah, that says a lot. That says a lot. Yeah. So she, yeah, coming to the end of her studies and I think by the sounds, but she'd been a little bit unlucky in love. There'd been a relationship that. Ended very bad, very long term relationship that had clearly not been a bit toxic. Yeah, by the sound. And which I mean, as it happens, you don't really realise how toxic it is until you're out of it.

10:49 I think she'd by the end of it, realise that where she thought that relationship was going, which was marriage and all those things, this guy had really sort of done her over a bit and kind of, you know, like been a bit of a Dick, so. And yeah, toxic, it's probably way to put it, yeah. So she gave it a little bit of time, but then she's back out on the app, whatever and swiped across this farmer. Yeah. And matched. And I was think was on Hinge. Maybe they matched and they set up a date and anyway they hit it off I think.

11:22 How far did she have to drive to Seamos? Hours it. Was a good hour or more like plus kind of stuff. It was like, yeah, a good couple hours. Maybe, yeah. And so that meant that I think that would have accelerated the relationship quickly because you would have had to have almost done overnight stays and stuff pretty quickly. Yeah, it wouldn't have been worth doing short little trips and stuff anyway. You're. Not going out and just going for coffee kind of thing. And going, yeah, he was kind of nice.

11:44 You're going and spending the day with him at least. Yeah, kind of thing on the farm that first visit even. Yeah. And things are going all right for them and things are progressing. He has a twin brother, an identical twin brother. And they are, you know, 2 peas in a pod, really. And anyway, what we find out eventually is that, yeah, basically she, they essentially that the two brothers are working together, doing all this stuff together. They spend the bulk of their time together. Yeah, they were coming home from a pub I think one night and had a few drinks.

12:23 They hit a cyclist and we find out over the course of the documentary that he didn't even die immediately. They did nothing about it. They then went and got a tractor, dug A shallow grave and buried him. And then this man's a missing person and no one knows what happened to him. It was in the middle of the night. He'd been coming home from like a no. No, he was on a charity. Charity bike ride. He was a cancer survivor and he was doing a charity. Bike ride, just to add. Insight into Scotland, yeah, doing that.

12:58 And so, which I mean, not to victim blame at all, but the publican even where he'd had dinner that night that he'd come in quite late to there and the publican had sort of said to him, mate, can I get you a room for the night? Because they'd got talking, knowing what he was doing and saying, can I get a room for you for the night? Because you don't want to go back out on the road riding at this time. There's no St. lights out here. Like it's dark as and the guide kind of go no, no, no, I'm on my path, I'm doing I'm doing my thing, which I mean so dangerous.

13:22 What he you know, to go out on that road doesn't mean you deserve. What happened? Oh God, no. But then also, you know what though? Also, you could then come at the fact that he was accidentally hit, but it's what they did after and the fact that they'd been drinking too, so drink driving. Yeah, but then he wasn't dead and they. Oh, anyway, so the main, you know that the girlfriend, yeah, she then they tell her about this and he praises. To her first. Oh, yeah. And then I mean, which is all quick and everyone's a bit like, well, this is all moving.

14:00 Way six months like of knowing it. Less. I think it was like it was less. It wouldn't be 3 months. Oh fuck yeah. I think I feel like it was like real quick. So the friends and family are kind of like, well, we've even met this guy and yeah, you know, you're getting married and but they sort of announced this engagement. And doesn't he announced it without telling her? Yeah, he put it on face on Facebook. Without telling her, and she wanted to tell other people. Yeah, I think she told her parents.

14:23 But then the next thing, it's already up on social media. Yeah. So it was very public then. All very quickly. Yeah. So but then he then pretty much in like, I feel like it was in like the same day even that he proposed to and Donald, and this is all occurred. He then discloses that, oh, by the way, I might have killed someone or I did kill someone. Yeah. And that you're the only person in the world that I trust to have this information. And so she's kind of like, whoa, because she kind of, she fell in love very quickly.

14:53 She's like, holy shit, this life that we were just literally flashed before my eyes about what we were going to have. And now I've got this in my lap. What the hell do I do with this information? Now, can you put yourself in her shoes if I can help? Because I think that's why he announced it on the social so early to really lock it in show. I mean, just she, I think he put her in such a shit. I mean, obviously he put her in a shit position by telling her. Yeah, but also for the fact that he then went and announced it to the world essentially.

15:26 And you kind of almost that would add a layer of, oh, I can't really go back on this. Now, wouldn't it, which is what she found herself in of like, Oh God, holy crap, I'm I guess you've got all your friends and only telling you you've done the wrong thing by saying yes to this, like getting married so quick, like getting, you know, proposed to you so quickly today and to be going already defending him and now you've got this and then you're supposed to what? Now you turn around and go Oh, no, no, that was off real quick.

15:50 I can imagine you thinking, Oh, no, no, now I'm going to sound really stupid. Oh fuck. Yeah, All right, so tell me. Tell me your thoughts. Oh, man, so many thoughts. So many. Because she, I mean, she does some unusual things as this progresses through like, but I can actually come at her unusual behaviours, yes, and. No. She's not supported. Enough by the police. By the police, 100%. That's where I go back to. And then psychologically, I can understand on a level why she did what she did certain things.

16:22 I'm with you on that. Yeah, Some of the things she did, I'm like, Oh no. Mate, but again, I'm not in those in her shoes to know what I'd do and I guess you'd kind of get wrapped up in it. Fucking shits me the police. So she goes to them and she says them what her information is. So she's done the right she's. Done the right thing, absolutely. But at that point, the police never treated her like as if she was in a slightly vulnerable position here. She said to them, we've been dating. Yes, only for a short time, but we have.

16:50 We know we're in this position. We're actually fiance now. Like we're not even just I'm a daddy guy for a few watched. Yeah, like they're locked into each other and they haven't gone. Oh, we might need to look out for you here and protect you in some way. Oh, I don't even even know utilize who to get more information out of him. Like they could have used her in that scenario rather than going. OK, thanks for information. Leave it with us and we'll deal with him. We'll investigate. And they've pulled him in for and like, like arrested him and his brother and you know, like, and then question them and then release them because they'd never have information.

17:23 But they still know it's not, they're not releasing them because they don't think that this has happened. They're releasing them because they're like, we need to investigate. For and they needed to find a body. They didn't have the body yet. Yep. So they've released him and so she's then left out in the world kind of going. He doesn't know that I'm the one. Or does he know that I'm the one because I'm the only person he's told so then he calls her going, holy shit, I've just been released like this just happened.

17:47 And she's. Yeah. I don't know what I'd do in that scenario, whether I would go with it and go I. Think, OK, so I when I was watching it, I actually bristled. When that happened. I was like, Oh no. Then when I actually thought about it and put myself in her shoes, I think I would have done exactly the same thing because I wouldn't have wanted to confront him. I'd be like, OK, like he doesn't know it's me. He's thinking it's not me. So I'm going to go along with. That shit man who? Would know. Yeah, you're right.

18:14 Oh, how? Awful. Absolutely. And because I know I'm in a position now where he's open to me and talking, I could find out more information. Oh, see this? That's where I she could. Find where the body was. Because he'd already talked to her about like, moving the body, Yes. So she already had an in like if she had what the way she went about it, I I was the wrong thing, was the wrong thing because oh fuck, I'm that's scary. Yeah, but if she if the cops had used her and protected her to do it, agreed.

18:45 It could have been done so well and. Really. I feel like there was such AII don't. I can't actually quite put my finger on her. Yeah. And I think she was in a fragile psychological state from the end of her last relationship. And hadn't healed from that. I agree with that. And then this motherfucker start a fair number on her because he's love bombed to the NTH degree. So I think she was just in a really bad. Way she was in a rich but I still so OK So what she's done is she's taken it upon herself then to if he started talking about things to do with the murder or if she was going down a pathway of asking him questions she would start recording it yeah.

19:31 She was trying to find out information that she could then feed to the police. They hadn't asked her to do that as you said, which was a missed opportunity for sure yeah but in them not engaging her they also then provided no protection for her. So she was putting herself into such a fucking vulnerable situation. Yeah. And I get at the core of it, she was trying to do the right thing. Yeah, but she also was involving herself more. And so I'm like, it's such a double edged sword. And I really like, I was so frustrated watching it at some point because I'm like, walk the fuck away.

20:09 I. Mean, look, in hindsight, you know, kind of stuff she should have and could have said to him, look, I don't know if I can do this. I no, it wasn't me that went to the cops, but I feel like, because I do know, I now feel like I'm in a position where I can be pulled into this and I just, I'm not going to say anything to the police, but I want to walk away from this and I just don't want to be around you. I wonder what would have happened. I know. Like. So she like, you know, that's the other thing like she would have that would have potentially put her in a really vulnerable position.

20:41 As well, violent he was, she didn't know what his Yeah demeanour would be around. And then the other thing is like, because of for her, I can certainly see in the in the course of the documentary, I can certainly see that she was becoming more and more reliant on drugs and alcohol to cope with the situation. And he and his brother were also partaking in. That they were. They were already, that's right. So how did that affect them as well? And the fact that their drug use was escalating and, well, I assume theirs was as well.

21:14 Probably. Under stress. Under stress as well. And the amount of alcohol that was being consumed on the top of all that. Yeah. What, you know, that would have changed the volatility of the situation as well. So yeah, I guess there's a lot of nuance in the interpretation of it from her perspective. But I still, there's still something about it that just makes me go, oh, I just wish you had a fucking walked away. I. Just don't. I think she really just. Felt that she couldn't yeah, and the. Cops went like she went to the cops and asked them for support and their response to her.

21:46 And I'll back her on this, that that's what cops do and that's what court systems do. She was told she can't talk to anyone, not even a psychologist. And The thing is with that is that then the psychologist notes get subpoenaed. And so it's all this vicious thing of when there's a an incident of sorts of then what? Keeping information clean, I guess, in that what they didn't want to have happen is have her be a witness, right? Yeah. But have a psychologist whose notes that the the defense can subpoena and then these those psychologist notes come out that, yeah, she's in a bad way.

22:22 Why wouldn't she be totally, you know, should be I'm right. But then that can then mean that her witness statements become questionable and therefore not usable in court as well as they wanted them to be. So this is this vicious cycle of you need to protect witnesses. But by them doing that, a psychologist notes, could fuck their their case, you know, which is such bullshit. Yeah, because people need to be able to talk to someone openly. Yeah. And have that support. Yeah. But she wasn't allowed access to it.

22:53 Yeah, it's. It's ridiculous. Yeah, it's ridiculous. Yeah. It's so like I just found myself when I was watching it, I was just like so frustrated by the whole thing and I was like, fuck, it was really getting to. Me, I come at wish I understood where she was coming. From Yeah. But also, yeah, going Oh my God, no, no. Don't do that. And then I felt for a mum and dad, oh God, they were so impacted by this. When her dad got really upset, I. Was like. I've had a couple of interruptions to this episode, guys.

23:23 Not that you'll probably see them because of Meg's extraordinary editing abilities, but. You'll see that Emma's banner keeps getting moved. Though my my robovac is can't. Fix that in editing. My robovac is really trying to get in here. Really wants to vacuum this area. Really sorry mate, sorry, but you actually can't get in here. So constantly knocking at the door. Anyway, I think it's I think it's gone now. I think it's got the hint and then no, it's gone, not here.

23:57 OK, but yeah, watch. Go check it out. Oh, I want to know what everyone's know. Netflix. Yeah, I want to know what everyone thinks because it's yeah, it's really, yeah. Really fascinating story. Honestly, yeah, really interesting. So thank you for the reco, whoever recommended that I actually didn't write down who it was. Sorry, sorry. Thank you. Thank you. All right, shout outs for today. God bring it. We have so many new Patreons. So a massive, massive thank you to Tanya Martin, Julia Foster, Morgan Clark Dolman, Shelley, C, Allison Riddle, Peter Lynch and Katie.

24:32 So thank you everybody for joining. You have no idea no how much this means to us like we are. Every time it's pinging we're. Yeah. Oh, we're just. Oh, that's amazing.

24:43 Yeah, it's, it's absolutely not lost on us. So thank you very, very much. We have had coffees, bought wines, let's be honest, 'cause you know, it's Meg's birthday month, so Meg's. Birthday year. Yeah. And we've had coffees bought for us by Wendy Franklin, who she said she didn't want to play favorite, so she wrote Megan, Emma, Emma and Meg.

25:08 And yeah, so it was very, very cute message that she sent along and from Helen Bryson as well. So thank you very, very much. Thank. You. Now the other shout out I just wanted to give was to, well, actually two of our followers who have their own Instagrams that I just love watching. So the garden at Jason Manor, yes, now she is phenomenal and she often likes and comments and really supports us on the socials. She said she loves our banter. She's been a really long time supporter and she found us through one of her other friends who I also absolutely love following a country mum.

25:47 So at a country mum on Instagram, she's fantastic. I love watching her videos, she's so entertaining, she's fantastic. So please follow them both on Instagram, Graham, they are fantastic. So the first one is at the Garden at Jason Manor and the second is at A Country Mum. Their content is top notch. Absolutely. Love it. Brilliant. So thank you ladies. And again with this month we've got our merch giveaway. So if you are keen to come and join us over at Patreon, $5 a month gets you into our draw for a merch pack this month.

26:21 So you got to enter join up with Patreon before the 4th of June of July of June, June. What June are we? June, June. We're in May, but by the 4th of June join up with that and you get our bonus episodes over there crime adjacent and we also you get free ad free episodes and a shout out here on our main feed. So come and join the Patreon and yeah, might win a merch pack. Woo. Hoo, good luck to everybody who has joined so far. Yeah, you might. Get one of these hoodies. Like what I'm wearing? Yeah, stay curious.

26:50 Or absolute piece of shit we actually got over here. Oh yeah, we go. Oh yeah, you can get a coffee mug if you want. Sweet piece of shit put. That in why not All right, so let's get on with today's episode. We are now doing Part 2 of the Butcher Baker of Alaska episode and we kind of left things last week. If you haven't listened to last weeks episode, please go and do that before listening to this because there's a lot of context that so much you need to know and that we'll probably be referencing when we discuss today's case or today's episode.

27:26 Sorry as things go along but basically we left off last episode and Meg had mentioned the finding of the remains of Occlutina Annie. These were discovered next to a power line in a wooded area which was a mile South of South Occlutina Lake Rd. and to this day she has never been identified. Her remains were found on the 21st of July in 1980 and these so in the progress of all of these crimes, she probably falls somewhere in well definitely by the state of her remains. Unfortunately, when she was found, her body had, this is horrific, but her body had been largely consumed by wildlife.

28:11 So it was really difficult to establish A cause of death, although there were confessions that were made when her body was found. And when the perpetrator, who we know now to be Robert Hanson, when he sort of confessed to her murder, he said that he stabbed her in the back. So he had gone and looked for her. So he started with this, I'm going to call it an MO like he had a, he had a pattern of what he would do. He would go out and seek sex workers out on the street. He would offer them money to come into his car to either for oral sex or penetrative sex.

28:58 He would then go through with that, not pay them, essentially abduct them. And in a lot of ways, his behaviour certainly escalated to the point where, So I think, you know, in some instances he would. We'll talk specifically about each victim. But it escalated to the fact where he really did start to essentially hunt these women like they were prey. And that's what makes me think, like a stabbing in the back is very much that, like, she was trying to get away. It was like a prey trying to get away.

29:34 He stabbed her in the back, which he fully admits to doing. He said that she was just a topless dancer or maybe a prostitute. And, you know, it's really, really sad to think that to this day, she's never been identified. You mentioned in our previous episode that there was a list of missing women at the time. And her her appearance didn't really fit anyone who'd been officially reported missing. Yeah, the state troopers of Alaska did seem to think that upon investigation, she may have come to Alaska via California, but they don't know where she was originally from.

30:14 No. And no one ever has claimed, you know, claimed her or they're. Still trying to identify her through like DNA and. Things like that. Genealogy. Doing all those things and stuff. Yeah. So. But yeah, unfortunately at this stage never hasn't been identified, which is really sad, but so sad. He would. Robert Hanson would also, as well as what you're saying, like, you know, engage the sex workers in like an act. But he was, he would also ask them, tell them he was would do a photo shoot with them and he'd like compliment them that, you know, he wanted to do a photo shoot.

30:45 And that would sort of set them up for like almost like a date, like a escort kind of arrangement. But at the same time as it like sort of alluding to that he could they could do modelling and things. So there was another one of his MO's to use as well. Just really fucked up. Fucking piece of shit. Yeah, yeah, which there were plenty of plenty of women who said that they had been approached by him but with that exact proposition who found him weird and went Oh no, no, no, I'm not interested in that.

31:15 But then there was plenty of girls who did sort of go, oh, that's that could Get Me Out of from doing like, you know, the other the sex work that that you know that. Oh, OK. Well, yeah, modelling would be much, much more my thing that I would like to do. It sounds far, far nicer. So it was a good pool for them to sort of get involved in, but that's not really where he had expertise. No, no. So we know we spoke about last episode about the attack on the housewife and the rape of the sex worker, which happened in the early 1970s.

31:47 Now it was in the mid 70s. So between 1975 and 1977, these escalations started to occur and there were more bodies being found in a lot of the times the bodies were found in the wilderness in Anchorage and they included like they were, they were dying from a lot of the times gunshot wounds to their back. And often it was their skeletal remains that were being found. So they'd been out in the wilderness, probably attacked by animals and, you know, found in, in just, you know, in a horrific way. It's just absolutely horrible.

32:27 One particular body found where a gunshot he she died from a bullet through the heart. One single bullet, but she was obviously naked when that occurred and then been redressed. Yes, when they found her body. So because there's no evidence of that bullet going through her clothing at all. So yeah. It's just absolutely horrific. So, yeah, so those bodies were being found, but no connection between the two of but by between any of them was being made. So they were very singular events to the police.

33:01 Other than Maxwell Farrell, I should mention back from our other episode where we spoke about how she was already suggesting that maybe we had a serial killer. That was in the like 7475. She was doing that, wasn't she? Yeah, this was before, like his main. I just think if they had fucking listened to her, how many people would have been saved? Well, even to this first one, we could have saved someone too. Well, yeah. So the first murder is believed to be that of 818 year old. She was 18 years of age.

33:33 Celia Van Zanten, she was kidnapped on the 22nd of December in 1971, and she actually froze to death in the wilderness after escaping from him. So he abducted her, he took her into the wilderness and she was able to escape. She was able to get away from him and she almost, almost made it out. She, I think she was something like it was not very far. It was maybe several miles from a road or something where her body was found. Yeah. But she ended up dying. She froze to death overnight. She succumbed to the elements.

34:15 Yeah, while she was trying to flee him. He he doesn't admit to her death though, So there's where there's an there's assumptions that it was, that he was the culprit. So I guess it's probably worth noting there are many deaths that he hasn't. Yeah, confessed to. Yeah, there are ones that he did confess to, Yeah. And then there were the ones that he was actually charged for. Yeah, but we'll get. We'll get to that, yeah. So, yeah, he basically though when he when he kidnapped her, he did stab her.

34:46 He, he he was trying to cover something into her chest. Oh, he just did some absolutely horrific things to this poor young girl. Yeah. And yeah, I I. What a horrible way to die. Oh God, yeah. Oh, she. Just being terrified, all of them. Aren't. Yeah. But should we start at sort of the beginning of the end for him? And let's jump in with let's do a girl by the name of Cindy Paulson. Oh. My God, I've deep dived her. Yeah. Oh, this one gets me going. Oh, God, yeah, sorry. Cindy Paulson on June 13, 1983.

35:21 She was 17 years old. She was a teen runaway and was working as a sex worker in Anchorage. So she was very, in some ways naive. She, a lot of the girls that she worked with said she didn't really want to take her clothes off and things like that, which, you know, yeah, but she's 17. But, yeah, obviously I reckon had a pretty, pretty hard life before that sort of thing. And this was her way of trying to make another new life for herself in Anchorage. But she so according to her friends that and to her, they that Hanson had approached her and again, said that would you like to come to a photo shoot and things.

35:56 And she was really excited about this, that this was something that, yeah, because it meant she'd have to take her clothes off necessarily. So she was up for it. But he did, unfortunately, he pulled a gun and he kidnapped her. So abducted her. And he took him, took her to his house where he had this room, this basement and. Oh, my God. Oh. It's so creepy. Photos of her So as we said, he's a hunter and he's got up on the wall and if you're into that, I guess that's what you're into and he had up on the wall all these heads of.

36:29 Trophies, yeah. Trophies. Yeah, they are trophies, aren't they? Yeah. All these animals that he's previously killed, I guess, and that's how they do that. I'm not really into that, but okay, They were all over this, this room and there was a pool table. There was it was like basically a man's den, you know, like man cave. Yeah, he brutally raped her in that downstairs basement. Yeah. He then tied her around her neck with a chain and tied that to a pole in the the basement as well. It was actually to a an overhead beam.

37:04 So, yeah, the, the ceiling of the basement had exposed beams. Yeah. And he tied her around the neck, but also by her wrists. Yes. And it was actually her wrists that we used to tie her to this beam. And there was through the beam, there was a bolt and a hook. And he he basically hooked her onto this bolt system. Right. Yeah. OK. This is really important. Yeah. And then after he'd finished raping her, he decided to lie there and have a snooze on the couch. Yeah, in the basement. And he said to her, don't you dare wake me, or I'll do that to you again.

37:42 Can I just say to you something that's really, really freaks me out and I only read this in one place. So maybe it's not true like, and I don't usually like to use things that are not mentioned more than I like things mentioned in one place. But I sort of had I read this in kind of an I can believe that. So when you have a starter like he did, usually it flares up when you're under stress and he's more it's, it's definitely heightened when you're not when you're in a calmer situation like a lot of people who sing, a lot of people sing who've got a stutter because it's very relaxing and calming for the throat, for the, for the mouth and for the the vocal cords and things.

38:17 And people don't stutter when they sing. There was mention that when he was in these moments of an attack that his stutter wasn't there. No, I I definitely read that. Yeah, OK. And I just find that. This is the thing that also helped him in some ways because, yeah, the police were like, well, they would, a woman would mention a stutter because that's a, a potentially defining thing, right? Yeah, It's something that would identify him. And so in the cases where they haven't said that the perpetrator of, you know, when they're trying to identify him had a stutter, they're like, oh, then it wouldn't have been.

38:56 It wouldn't have been. Bob turns out actually a stutter. Like, you know, yeah, turns out, yeah, absolutely horrific. So he's then woken up from his slumber. He has taken her down off the off the beam and put her in his car. She was wearing blue high heels at the time. And he drives her to the airstrip where his plane is kept. Now he he needed to do a few things in order to get the plane ready to fly. I think he needed to refuel. He needed to pop some bits and pieces into the plane. And I think he did.

39:36 He need to put another seat in or something. I don't know, I remember just reading I had to load the. Cockpit. The cockpit, whatever that with, whatever with. Whatever he needs to load it with, Yeah. So he has left her in the car. Now, she is still bound by her wrists by this chain, but. And so he's been locking the door as he's coming, coming and going from the car. At one point, Cindy notices that he didn't fully shut the door. And so she's like, this is literally my only opportunity. I've got to give it a go.

40:07 Yeah. So she kicks off her blue high heels and leaves them in the front seat of the car on the front passenger floor. Passenger floor of the car. Yeah. She. Escapes out of the drive side. So she had to basically somehow shimmy herself over to the driver's side and open kick the door open. And she just ran. She just ran as fast as she could. Yeah. She got to. It was like State Road 6 or something like that. Yeah. And she came upon a truck driver who pulled over, could see that she was very clearly distressed.

40:45 She. Her hands were still bound at this point. And she basically said to him, I've been raped. Like, I'm. I'm help, help, help me somebody. You've got to help me take me to the nearest motel. Yeah. And the truck driver's like, oh, OK. You sure you don't want me to take you to the police? And she's like, no, no, I need to go to such and such a motel. My boyfriend. Or yeah, I've got my boyfriend's there, my boyfriend's there. Yeah. Turned out it wasn't her boyfriend, it was her pimp. Fiddy sent in.

41:11 Fiddy, yeah. Fiddy frozen ground. Sorry, the. Movie, which isn't really true to events, but you know, Fiddy does play this character. Yeah. Now when he gets sorry, when she gets there, the the truck driver then continues on on his truck route and as soon as he gets to work, which I think wasn't that far away, he calls the police and he's like, this is just what's happened. This is the person I've just picked up. This is all very weird. Need to. Go check this out. Yeah, the police immediately, dispatch, I think they dispatched a couple of detectives initially to the motel where he dropped, where he dropped her off and they interviewed her.

41:51 Now she basically said to them, you will find this evidence. I left my shoes in the front seat of his car when I was at his house. 'Cause they she also notes that in the back seat of the car are a particular pair of blue runners as well. Yeah, so she, she also, so it wasn't just her belongings that were left behind. She could identify other things that she had seen. She very. Clearly she also remembered the tail number of the plane, which he had apparently printed on his plane in the smallest legally allowed font, right?

42:22 But she noticed it and remembered it, right? So they then looked that up and it's registered to Robert Hansen. Yep, they go to his house and now this was probably many many hours later that by the time they get to her house now to his house, he has had time to go back to that house and reset it to 0. He knows they're going to be looking for where she was. Chained up. So when she when she ran, we should say like he chased her for a brief bit, but then he just went. Nah, Nah. And then got in his car.

42:58 Yeah. Peace bolted back home, knowing the police were coming to to to at least chat with him and probably search his house. But still fairly confident in being able to throw his way out of this. You know, absolutely. Because previously he's. Been able to do Yep. So the police have a look around and you know what, to their credit, they have a very good look around. OK, what they find in the basement is a They don't find a chain, they don't find any bolts. They do see that there's a mark in the wood in the.

43:35 Beam. There's a hole like in the in the beam. Not a hole anymore. No. It's been filled in with wood filler because you know what? Do you know what actually happened? He was firing gun. No, he was cleaning a gun and he accidentally fired a gun and it went through the beam. Yes. So we actually had to patch that up. That was yeah, He just patched that up recently. Mm. Hmm. Mm, hmm. But the room was exactly how. She described. It Mm hmm. So yeah, I mean, but. Did they believe she'd actually been there of her own free will, or did they think she'd been taken there?

44:07 This is the fucking. Problem to it all, though, is that.

44:13 Well, yeah, Robert Hanson says no, this is what that's that's bullshit. You know, says that he, you know, he had a bit of a running with her, but that was it because he was with some friends. Two of them in particular. I'm going to name the son of a bitch because I hope it haunts him to this day by the name of Oh my God, I'm going to find it and I'm going to say it. John Henning. Yep. John Henning, you suck. You're a fucking piece of shit. Has come out later and said I really regret I. Fucking hope he does, and forever does.

44:47 He should. He should because I'm sorry someone's life is gone because of him. Yeah. So I, I, I don't know that that was the only time either. No this. Is it? There's at least one that I will 100% say is on his head. Yeah. So apparently those two but ones named John Henning. Yeah. The police said I was with these, these guys. The police go to them. Now, these people were people that his wife had set up play dates with. They were not his good close friends. They were not, you know, Hey, we've known each other for a million years.

45:20 These were for him, even if I wasn't with him, like I know he wouldn't have done anything. No, no, no. Barely knew the bloke, barely really knew. Had actually made statements to people about how they found him awkward and weird. Yep. But when they were asked by the cops randomly, hey, were you with Robert Hanson? That on this, this date, in that time, what did he fucking say? Yeah. Oh yeah. Yep. Yep. Man, Yeah. Good bloke, good bloke. Him. Yep, fuck me. Fuck off. What I just there are not look, maybe you and one other I would lie to the police for you know.

45:56 You probably shouldn't say that in a public. Podcast, but what the fuck? Yeah. I this infuriated me. Oh, it's it's disgusting, especially because I think the police gave some context around why they were asking to. Yeah. So to me, that even more makes it that even makes it worse. Like with no context, maybe you'd be like, oh, fuck, is he cheating on his wife or something? Like he had a sex worker in his house or something. Yeah, yeah. Like I'll vouch for him, but you know, but I'm pretty pushing it.

46:30 Absolutely. Yeah, but fairly innocent, I guess, in the grand scheme of things. But they actually said they were investigating murders. Oh yeah, yeah, I was with him, yeah. Yeah, yeah. No, not, not Johnny, not not Robert. Sorry, but not Robert. He's a great bloke. Yep. Bullshit. Johnny, he ain't. So the the police did interview Hanson in relation to Cindy, right? Yeah, and they believed. He basically, yeah. He basically. Oh, they did, yeah. And This is why I deep dived to this one because I'm like, it's so fucking disgusting.

47:01 Oh, God, yeah. So Cindy, he. So Hansen said that he'd offered Cindy $200. They had rough consensual sex, and then she upped the price to $300 and he wasn't going to pay. So she went to the police as revenge, saying all this stuff that he'd done as revenge because he owed her $100. But you'll find a pattern in that, in that that's his. Like you'll find a way to blame the victim every fucking time. Yeah, because Cindy was a sex worker and was only 17 years of age. The police gave put no credibility in her statement.

47:45 No. So this is on. This is fucking unbelievable to me. I'm talking now about the search and what they found, right? Yep. In his house they found an aviation map with all these XS all over it. OK, which? Didn't mean much to them. No, it didn't. At first it didn't. No. No. They found weapons, which OK, that correlates with his hunting passion. However, however, they found jewelry that was later than linked to victims. So at the time, again, the police didn't know who this jewelry necessarily belonged to.

48:20 They knew it didn't belong to his wife. No, they still didn't question him any further or detain him and ask him about these. Things well, so they did bring him in for questions. They brought him in, Yep, but they didn't detain him. Well, at this point they no. So when they had him in for interview, well, they brought him in purely for interview so they could go and check the house at this point. So they did get to a point where they're like, actually, I think he might be the black the guy we need to look at.

48:51 So what they did is they set up their interview room to look like they had heavily investigated him, when in fact they. Had only just started. Yeah, but they made it look like they'd been watching him for a long time. They had up, you know, on the whiteboard, like connect the dots kind of. Yeah. They had like those strings. Strings like, we'll make up some shit, you know, like you. Know what you see on like CSI or something? Tape of stuff like strewn across the table like a photos of, you know, people that they, you know, women that had been reported missing or, you know, that they'd found dead.

49:23 And just, you know, sort of they set the scene with him to sort of keep him busy so that they could go and look at his house without him there. But at the same time, because they, they really didn't think they were going to find anything. They were basically convinced that, oh, no, I don't think we'll find much, but we want him out of the house so they can look at it cleanly. They did take with them. They convinced Maxwell Farrell to go with them because she, in her own time, had been investigating this far more thoroughly than any of the other detectives, because she was convinced that there was a serial killer.

49:53 So what she had been doing was she actually created a spreadsheet of all the women who had been, could be, had been documented as missing and spoken to family, all those sorts of things. She had actually done the hard work of going, yeah, no, people haven't. People have found that person that is that that girl did end up back in her hometown. Oh, no, this one. No, we haven't seen her. We don't know, oh, any tattoos, any jewelry that they wore, any, you know, things that we could identify them with or potentially if there is a serial killer.

50:23 She even had the forethought to think if there's a serial killer. Serial killers I know take trophies and jewelry is something that they quite often do keep from these things. So if I take an inventory of items like that, maybe I'll be able to connect the dots if we find another body and or you know, if we find somebody who has these. Bits of jewelry, amazing boots to the ground. She was. All over incredible. So they took her with her with them to this search so that when they did find in the attic in hidden in the insulation, it was found where these containers with the with jewelry in them, They showed them to Maxwell and she was able to like with no shadow of a doubt, go.

51:05 I know who that belongs to and I know who that belongs to. They're all these women that we've been looking for. They belong to all these women. It was unbelievable. They wouldn't listen to Maxwell prior to this. And they wouldn't listen to Cindy until Maxwell's. Then, I mean, the the evidence was pretty damning. But yeah, Cindy was able to accurate, accurately describe the aeroplane. Yeah. His house, the basement, the weapons he had. These are things that she couldn't have invented. She could have left her shoes there.

51:39 I don't know, like, planted her shoes in his car. Like they things that they initially dismissed. Yeah. It was becoming more and more evident that they shouldn't have done that and that that the mind set of the remainder of the Police Department really started shifting at that. Point, though, they all got on board at this point. At this point I realized holy shit, this guy is not the good guy that he's tried to put forward. Yeah, Oh yeah. But yeah. And then I just say then there was the map that they found with all the asterisks on it.

52:12 There was 21 asterisks on this flight map and when they were looking at them to sort of got kind of go, what's the relevance of this map here? You know what's going on? They started asking some other detectives who had looked into the the bodies that had been found. Where did you find that? Including Annie's body, you know, and they come over to the map and kind of, oh, it was a roundabout 00 where that Asterix is. Oh, on Joe Blow, you were working on that case. Come here, come over here and have a look at this map.

52:39 Can you tell us whereabouts did you find that body? You know, Oh, actually exactly where you've already got marked on the map. Like it's that that Asterix right there. That's where we found the body. Oh, crap. Could all these Asterix be bodies? Fuck, fuck. There's a lot more than we thought there was the. One of the really serious challenges to this though, yeah, was the fact that, you know, the map was actually quite zoomed out, so each X or asterisk actually represented like a 10 mile radius. I'll put the map up.

53:11 I've got photos of the map. Yeah, I'll put it up on our social so people can see. And even when when you do, zoom in and look at it yourself. That's. A like you can tell by how like where things are, how things are located, that you can see that it's it's still a general vibe of it's somewhere here. Yeah, Yeah, that's it. Yeah. So what what that meant, though, was that they couldn't really use that map to go to these places and go, oh, the body's gonna be exactly here. No, they needed more information.

53:36 No. But so a little bit more of evidence that came back to them too was a bit more Ballistics evidence. So once they managed to get so the guns that were found also in the insulation in the attic, one of them was matched to a Ruger Mini 14 rifle, which doesn't mean much to me, however, that they were, what do you call them, shell casings? Shell casings that were found with bodies that they already had that matched that exact rifle. Yeah. So it's like he had a it was these .233 or two 2-3 caliber bullets that apparently hunters use.

54:11 It was a common hunting bullet, yeah. But yeah, they were, they were a match for that particular gun that that they found that he'd hidden. Yeah. The rest of his guns weren't hidden. No, he had a lot of guns and also in that in that man cave, there were loads of guns in that room, but these ones were hidden in the insulation and that one of them matched the casings of these these other this body or two of the bodies are. Two. Yeah. They don't even actually might have. Oh, no, I think it was 2. Sorry.

54:37 Actually it was 2. Yeah. So, yeah, basically with this sort of evidence that they went in with, we've got you on these things. Fortunately, fortunately, I think he confessed to a number of these murders. So he was officially arrested in October 27th, 83 but and then by the time we get to February 22nd of 1984, they get a full recorded confession from him of these murders. He does not confess to 21 that they've got asterisks for on these maps. He confesses to 1717. Yeah, murders. Of women raging in age from 16 years to 41 years of age they The police suspect that he did kill the 21 women why he didn't admit to all of them we don't really know but then how do you get in the mind of.

55:33 Us. I actually think that a point, what he was confessing to was they literally sit with the map and point and any new details. Oh yeah. Of oh, this one, this Oh no, no, no, this happened with that. And he'd go into it. Whereas I think, you know, he didn't remember certain ones of I think other other maps, other marks, he might kind of go, no, I don't remember that so much. You know what I mean? I think it was more that than him. Not that him saying I don't not saying that he didn't do them, but he's like, I don't remember that one.

56:01 So I'm leaving it. I'm just not going to touch that one. Due to the way, I mean, we'll get into a little bit more about each of the victims in a minute. But due to the way that they were found, how long it was after they were murdered that they were found there was it was really difficult for police to gather evidence. And so when they charged him, so of the 17 that he sort of confessed to, they actually only ended up charging him with or going to court in pursuit of,

56:32 Yeah, of charging of, of what's the word? Four that they charged him with. Yeah, of four, so. And the sexual assault of and rape sorry of of Sydney's the. Abduction of her SO. They found a total of seven bodies. But yeah, the way that that went about was when he confessed, what they did next was they put him in a helicopter and took him up over this area for him to about a point to so they could go and find some of these bodies. And the police officers that have been interviewed about this are just it's it's unbelievable.

57:04 They said that he was like a kid in the canning store. He found this to be the most exciting day of his life. He was so giddy. To explain to them that word. Didn't they a number of times they said that the helicopter would land and he would literally fly out of that helicopter to giddily show them, oh, it's over this way, this way, this way over here I've. Actually just got goosebumps. You saying that it's like just. Awful how he's like showing off his work to these men. Like, you know, it was really, they were all really taken aback by how his demeanor changed in this, the time where he was able to, I guess, openly and freely speak about what he had done.

57:49 I just, it's gross. It's so gross. It's so gross. But through that, they were able then to excavate areas where he sort of was identifying that these bodies would be. And through that, they were able to find a total of seven bodies. But that meant that another 10 that he was he was admitting to killing, but they weren't able to find the bodies of which is just horrendous. Oh. It's it's absolutely horrible. I'll just quickly run through the remainder of the victims. Do you think? Yep, Yep. So the next one, I'm sort of going by when they were when they sort of disappeared.

58:28 Yeah, that's. What I've got on the? Next as well, so we've then got Megan Siobhan Emmerich who was aged 17. She vanished on the 7th of July, 1973, in Seward, which is one of the like one of the little towns in Anchorage. She's only a suspected victim of his two. There is actually. There's witness statements that have linked her to Hanson, but he never admitted to her no being one of his. Victims She was at a boarding school and she was last seen in the laundry room of the of the school. She has not been seen seen or heard from since the last person saw her in there.

59:03 Yeah. She left behind all of her her personal items, her identification, her wallet, everything's been left behind Yeah. Her roommate ended up contacting the police after looking for her for two or three days. So they thought maybe she'd I've no gone off and met someone or you know, something like that. But after she hadn't come home, you know, they they contacted the police. Hanson has denied any involvement, as you said to this one, even he did admit to being ensued on the day of her disappearance.

59:35 And then witnesses seen him with her. Yeah. So yeah, OK, OK. I don't really get it. Yeah. Similar to that was Mary Kathleen Phil. She was 22. She disappeared on July 5th, 1975. There they believe there was an X marked on the map that linked to her. But again, Hanson never admitted to to killing her, but there it's very much strongly believed that she was one of his victims. The next one is Joanna Messina. She was aged 24, and she was out for dinner with Hanson on the 19th of May 1980. Yeah, Now, I think she was one of the ones who he sort of was talking to about taking photos and, you know, making her into some kind of glamour model.

1:00:32 Hanson says that before Messina offered him sex in exchange for cash, things were going really, really well on this, like, date.

1:00:45 OK, Apparently Hanson refused to pay for the sex and then refused to release her. So he drove her and she was, she was with a dog. Like she had a dog. At the time. She was the one that had a dog and they he drove her to this place near the Snow River. He struck her with a revolver. With this 22 caliber revolver. He shot her twice and he shot her. Dog once, yeah. He dumped her body in a gravel pit. So she was, her body was found not too far from where a gluten Annie was found as well. Yeah, yeah.

1:01:18 Yeah, it was. I think it was about 3 months or so before her body was found. He was quoted as saying that he killed her because she did not develop genuine feelings for him.

1:01:30 Oh my God, that's why I shot her. Oh yeah, Because it's always their fault. It's not his. Fault. It's 100% her fault that she didn't develop feelings. Yeah, that's on her. Yeah. And her dog. Yeah. Yeah. Dogs are the best Judger character. Well, yes. Next we had Sherry Morrow. Now she her body was found in September of 1982. However she'd been she disappeared on the 17th November in 1981. She was a topless dancer. She went by the name of Georgia at one of the local bars on 4th Ave. in Anchorage and she found she was found in a shallow grave.

1:02:11 She was actually found by some police off duty police officers her body. Hunting along the river. Yeah, she was found blindfolded, shot 3 times with a Ruger Mini 14, which is what was found in the in the attic, and she'd been redressed after being murdered. Yeah, so the police officers who found her, I I found this quite fascinating then like they're retelling of it. Yeah. So they were hunting along the Kinnick River, which is one of these remote places that you, it's inaccessible by vehicle even.

1:02:47 And so they were hunt, they were away for the weekend hunting. They've come across her body. They've had to leave her body there to go back to their camp to then decamp and go back to somewhere with who could actually get enough or find a phone because, I mean, there were no mobile phones. No, But get to a phone to then obviously get proceedings in place to to actually someone out there. Yeah. Yeah. To actually find her body, like, you know, process the crime scene and all of that. Yeah. And the one of the police officers in police officers in particular said that he found that so difficult to leave her.

1:03:26 Yeah. He's like, you know, she's just been found. And we had, no, we had no choice. Like they obviously didn't have any choice. And, and it's not like she could be saved, but I thought it was. It really touched me that he was. So it really hurt him to have to leave her and after she'd already been dumped the way she had. Yeah. One of the few good men in this. Yeah, There are a few others from 1980s. So we had Roxanne Eastland, who was aged 24, vanished on the 28th of June in 1980. She'd been residing at the Budget Motel in Anchorage with her boyfriend for two weeks.

1:04:02 And she was meant to meet an, according to her boyfriend, was meant to meet an unnamed man in downtown Anchorage. Yeah, she was not seen or heard from after that meeting her. Body's never been found unfortunately. Admit to killing her. Hanson did admit to killing her, but did not. They couldn't locate her body. No. Lisa Futrell was 41. She met Hanson at the nightclub where she worked. And then he kidnapped her on the 6th of December in nine sorry, September in 1980. When she didn't come in to work the next day on the 7th of September for her shift, her two younger housemates reported her missing to the police.

1:04:45 And this was in 1984. And this was one of the ones that Maxwell was like, see, there is something going on here. Yeah. They found her body. Sorry. In 1984 they found her body. Yeah, she disappeared in 1980. Yeah, but found her body in 1984 and it was, yeah, along the Kinnick Bridge. So we've got a lot in that area coming up. Yeah. So there's like, so we had the couple of bodies found like prior to him, him confessing, Yeah. And then through May and April and 1984, we get that's where they've gone out and actually found these bodies.

1:05:19 So we've got that extra 7 that have found after his confession. So, yeah, in that April, we've again, again got Malay Larson, who was reported missing in July of 1981. And she was found near a parking area of the old Kinnick Bridge. Just also awful. And as well, Sue Luna, she was found again in April of 1984, reported missing in 1982. In May, she was also found near the Kinnick River. Hanson confessed to taking her to the river and stripping her and hunting her. Yeah. So what he would do is he would strip them, take them out into the.

1:05:57 Fly them out. There, fly them out there, strip them naked, go run. Run for your life. He'd give them a minute or two and then he would track them and hunt them. And so I think she was shot. Yep. She was shot three times in the back, I think. Yeah. And just absolutely horrific. Absolutely horrific. Just gross. I mean, what a suck of shit. Such a fucking suck of shit. Oh, Tamira or Tammy Patterson Peterson. Sorry. It was also found in April of 1984 and she went missing in August of 82. Her body was found in near the Kinnick River and she was abducted and murdered with a 7mm Thompson contender which again he had haunted her down as.

1:06:41 Well, that was the other gun I think that they found in the attic, wasn't it? Or in the insulation space Insulation. Space. Yeah, yeah. We also have Angela Lynn Fedden, who was found in the April of 84 and disappeared in Feb of 83. She's probably one of the lucky ones in that she was found a little bit sooner after being gone. Yeah, that's very. True, but but still not nice at all. Dylan Renee Frey, who went by the name of Sugar. She was a waitress and dancer and she was from Hawaii. She was found in the August of 85.

1:07:18 Now she was also known as and by another name for a very long time. No, sorry, I've got the wrong one, haven't I? Yeah. Yeah, no, I've got the wrong one. Sorry, she was actually. She was found like in 985. Sorry. Yep. So she was actually Jane Doe originally. So she was the one who they couldn't identify. And she was the one that Maxwell identified because of her jewelry. Yes. Yeah. Right. So she. She's right. Who put the. Yeah, she put it together. Absolutely. And so it was after she was buried.

1:07:45 So, you know, Maxwell was just so fucking on the case, yeah, that she was able with family, with people who knew her, to identify her, through her. She was identified in 1990, actually. Yeah, it. Was a long time after. Yes, right. Yeah, Teresa Watson, who was 22, was found in the April of 84. She did disappeared in the March of 83. Her body was discovered near Scenic Lake. So he had kind of changed a bit of his MO and moved to a different area for the bodies because he found the other area was becoming to to be crowded with, with people coming in hunting and stuff.

1:08:21 So he moved areas. Paula Goulding, who I'll go into more a little bit later, she that was awful. She disappeared in the April of of 83 and her body was found in September of 83. So again, at least found sooner, but she was only 17. Another one who was so young, so young. The next one is she was originally known as Horseshoe Harriet. Again, another one who had not been identified. She was only identified in 19 in 2021 using DNA. Yeah. Doesn't say. Yeah, including Annie could still be identified using these same techniques that we've.

1:08:59 They've been able to identify Horseshoe Harriet. So they literally had no knowledge of who she was. They did try very, very, very hard for a very long time. So it was really amazing when only recently they actually exhumed her body in 2016 to get the DNA to be able to do this. And then, yeah, they've identified her as Robin Pelkey. She was 19. She was found in the April of 84, but went missing in nine in Sorry, she went missing in July 83. So. Yeah, I mean, so. The reason they nicknamed her Horseshoe Harriet is because her body was found close to Horseshoe Lake.

1:09:33 Yeah. Yeah. That's just so sad. So shit. But yeah, I'm so glad they've been able to identify her and her family have been able to know where, where, what happened to her because they were looking for her. It just never got connected that that body was hers until 20/21. I mean, it's a long time later. It's a. Long time later and you think, you know, I'm sure some really key people in her life probably passed in that time not knowing what had happened to her. So absolutely our thoughts go out to them like that's, but you know, that's horrible, absolutely awful.

1:10:05 But yeah, Paula, we had like there's a couple of couple of people who obviously escaped him. Yeah, Paula Goulding is another one who tragically didn't manage to in the end. He he did kill her, but she was so close to getting away. Again, though, I have to question this bit. What would happen with her was that she was abducted by by Robert and as he took her out, he flew her out to this very secluded area. And this other plane flew over and he could see that obviously whoever was in this plane could see that what was going on between these two was not kosher and started flying in a particular way, acknowledging like, I see, I see you, you know, so apparently.

1:10:48 There's like this winged thing that they do and it's like almost like a hello, I see you. I I'm acknowledging that I've seen you and I know you're there. Yeah. Yeah. So she was kind of like then kind of trying to wave down, oh, my God, help me, Help me. Yeah. Which he, which Robert Hanson then, you know, grabbed her, shoved her into a meat shed. They have these meat sheds up in these hidden places where they can, you know, if they kill something, they can store them, go out and hunt more, these sorts of things.

1:11:13 He threw her into this meat sheds, yelling at her, telling her, like, if, if he happens to land, I'm going to have to kill him. And if you realize that if I kill him, I'm going to have to kill you. And that's on. You and that'll be on you. Yeah, so he did. He does this eventually the plane disappears and goes and clearly this guy, what did he even report that? I don't know like. I actually so I don't think he did no until. From Robin Henson we get all this. Information. Yeah. I don't think he came to the police.

1:11:43 Yeah. Until this all came out. Oh, wow. Which is revolting in and of itself. We've said it before. If you see something, say something. You don't have to say something to the person. Go to the fucking police. Go to the police. Go. To the police, anyway. The pilot does. He flies off and that's that. So, and Hanson then is he gets her out of this meat shed and she is just beyond frightened as you would be. She realizes entirely what is about to happen to her. I've no doubt in my mind that she realized at that point that he was going to kill her.

1:12:19 And so this is how what this is a quote from his interview about her. And this is where you get that narcissistic trait of him being able to blame the victim every time. Yeah. So he says she, he says she slapped. She slapped at me. And she started running, you know, she started running the rivers out this way and she started running this way. I called up to her and I got her stopped. I said, now look, it's over. There's no real problem. The guy's gone. It's all cool now, you know? But she had got hysterical and I couldn't get her.

1:12:49 Calm down. So just the more I tried to talk her to her, maybe it was because I was getting excited, but she just got more and more hysterical and she broke away from me again and I started to run. You know, I just reached back, you know, the rifle, the laying there and I leaned up against the building. I grabbed, I reached, I reached back. I took a couple steps back and grabbed that. I ran and I caught and I caught her and I caught her again. And I said no. Now look, I said don't make a bad thing worse.

1:13:18 Don't stop it. It's OK. Bang. Then it just went completely. Things just completely went completely went bad again. He's completely bad means murder. So throughout his confessions, he never ever said I killed her, I murdered her or any of that. He used the terminology. Things went completely bad. He never used language. Which is really interesting, isn't it? Well, because that makes him not the victim. It's completely bad because of what they did. Something happened. Something bad happened. That's right.

1:13:54 Isn't it completely removes the onus. I didn't murder them. I didn't commit the act of murder. It was their fault that I had to act the way I did and retaliate. That happened. The situation happened because they they didn't do what I asked them to do. They didn't have sex with me willingly. Yeah. The other thing he said in this same interview was, oh, maybe I just shouldn't have called it a meat shed. Then she wouldn't have got so, so upset. Oh my fucking Lord.

1:14:20 Maybe you shouldn't have tied her up and kidnapped her and taken her in a plane to out into the wilderness and raped her, a gun with you. And there's so many things here, mate, that maybe made her scared. Yep. Yeah. I just had to read that because I just felt like when I was reading all the transcripts that that stood out to me as like this piece of shit. He had in a way of manipulating everything being not his fault. Yep to the end to the to the point of confession. His confessions weren't even true confessions because it wasn't his fault.

1:14:51 No, it was never his fault. Actually, I've got a quote about that. I might actually bring it up now. Yeah. So he blamed his tortured adolescence. Go back to Yeah yeah, Part 1 about that. Yeah, go to. Yeah. He so one of the things that he says in his interview, because the police like, why? Like, why did you do this? Yeah, So he goes. Going back in my life, I was, I guess you might call, very frustrated. I would see my friends and so forth going on dates and so forth and had a tremendous desire to do the same thing.

1:15:24 From the scars and so forth. You can probably see. I couldn't see. I'm sorry. I could see why girls wouldn't want to get close to me. During my high school days, I could not control my speech at all. I was always so embarrassed and upset with it from people making fun of me that I hated the word school. That's why I killed women. Sorry, sorry. We we asked you why you killed women you've and raped. Lives multiple, many. Yep, oh wow, Yep, it's just awful. Anyway, So yeah, I think the reason that he pled guilty to the fore was because they had the shell casings.

1:16:09 Well, at the time they had their bodies. They had their bodies. They had the four. The four bodies they had. And they had the shell casings to match. So it was like unequivocal that they had a link between him and them. It wasn't just his confession. They had solid evidence. That's right. So at the end of the confession in February, they were unequivocally able to link him to the four bodies that they had. Yeah. So that's where he got charged with those 4. Then it wasn't until April, May that they found the additional bodies.

1:16:36 So he wasn't then charged further with them because they'd already started proceedings with the four. They could have gone back I guess and charged him. But we'll get to there's really kind. Of no, there's kind of no point. I mean, it's I, I see why there's a point, but I also see why they didn't because I think things were going pretty well for the prosecution. They got what they needed. They got what they needed. Yeah, yeah. For sure. So he was charged with the murder and can and convicted ultimately of the murder of Sherry Morrow, Paula Goulding Klutner, Annie and Joanna Messina.

1:17:10 He was also charged and convicted of the kidnapping and rape of Cindy Paulson. Yeah. So for all those five accounts there, he received a prison sentence of 461 years plus one life. I love that. Yeah, I guess. I'm guessing the life sentence was for Cindy maybe, and then the rest the 461 years was for the other. Seen. How? I haven't seen how they broke it. No, I haven't either. No, I think about it, but yeah, 461 years plus a life, yeah. So no, no chance of parole, absolutely no chance that he's getting out.

1:17:50 He was getting. Out 100% the high call. Totally. I mean, yeah. So it was a plea deal. He he didn't, he pled guilty. He did not, you know, there was no trial as such really. It wasn't a lengthy trial. It was, I think that might have been like a couple of days in court sort of stuff it. Was, but I think that was all around the sentencing. Absolutely. Yeah, Yeah. Yeah. No. So he was permanently incarcerated for his actions in this. No question. But yeah, so then after that was done, I think pretty much because he was pleading guilty to those four and they got that, they took it to court very immediately.

1:18:23 So the sentencing was actually on in February as well, in February 27th, 1984. So it wasn't until after all that that they did find the other bodies. So, as we say, don't need to go back. No, I mean, he was already in prison for the rest of his life. Yeah. And then and then some, yeah. So it wasn't actually until this point, though, that his wife divorced him. Yes. So it wasn't until after he was sentenced that she divorced him, which blows my mind. Yeah. But then they weren't. It's not like they were together through all of this.

1:18:56 Like once he was arrested and yeah, you know, obviously that ended the relationship. What I I don't understand it but really? Really feel for his kids. Me too, and his wife for that. Because I mean, for to a point where I believe Darla knew he was using. He was having sex with sex workers. I, I yeah, I I very much know that. OK. She was aware that that was happening. She did not. She was not aware that he was murdering people. No, No. I and I think that was. True, but I believe that she she knew the marriage wasn't right and that that he was doing that.

1:19:31 But I think her, her religion came into play, you know, in terms of kids, the kids and then having a father and just the time, you know, that that's in the 80s. You think there's a lot of? Stuck to your marriage? Yeah, All that stuff. Unfortunately, yeah, When she stuck around. When he was arrested, when Hanson was arrested, though, the kids, I mean, obviously this was in the news everywhere. And they weren't little little at this. No, they were, I think, secondary school age. 12, yeah. You know, somewhere around that age.

1:20:01 Yeah, so they ended up moving from Alaska because the kids were apparently being bullied relentlessly or, you know, picked on about it relentlessly. They had a they had a loving relationship with their dad. I mean that he wasn't, he wasn't the butcher Baker at home, no. He was so. Baker Bot It's really hard for them to comprehend not to say, you know, oh you know, he's such a good bloke. I'm not doing that. I'm not saying that, that he had this, he had a double life. And so their perspective of him, he was dad.

1:20:30 Yeah, he was dad. He did all those things we talked about of like in community. Yeah, absolutely. So I feel for them trying to then get their heads around this other life he had. Yeah. Dulla moved them to Arkansas, yeah, pretty much at the same time, yeah. And so they ended up living, you know, out the rest of, Yeah, their time there. But so he, Hanson died on the 21st of August in 2014. He was aged 75. He just died of natural causes. Shame it wasn't. I don't even know if it was painful. It should have been.

1:21:07 It should have been. He deserves to rot in hell. What a piece of shit. Can't, can't even. But I mean, we're just to bring it back to like Cindy Paulson. She, she was incredible. She escaped, she stuck to her story. She was gutsy as hell to be able to come forward. And I mean, these cops didn't believe her, but she can. She did stick to her story. She's she, you know, gave everything she she could. Yeah, I've read an interview with one of the police officers who interviewed her and he said at the time, so this is one of the cops who I'm, I'm assuming wasn't believing of her story.

1:21:47 Yeah. But I think he turned a corner when they used all of their tactics on her. You know, they make her tell the story inside out and back to front and front ways and back ways. And they were trying to trip her up and, and figure out why she was lying. You know, they obviously assumed she was lying and they were trying to really catch her out. And he said we there, there was not one detail that she did that she changed no across her multiple tellings of this storytelling it backwards and frontwards and asking random questions and all that.

1:22:18 And he said he found her after they'd done that. He said, I, I found actually found her an incredibly reliable witness. But why the fuck wasn't she believed straight away? Why wasn't Maxwell Farrell believed when she was, you know, speaking about, I mean. I think a lot of it says about the time, yeah, the misogyny that was, you know, absolutely rife in the police force. Yeah, because the real tragedy in this of what I was leading to earlier, 2 of that fuck wit. I'll say his name again, John Henning.

1:22:48 Now let's. Just call him fuck wit John. Fuck wit John, let's do that Horseshoe. Harriet, who later identified it, was identified as Robin Pelkey. She went missing on July 19th, 1983. Cindy Paulson was abducted on June 13th, 1983. Yeah. So his, her, her death is on John. Definitely. Because he, if he had that day when he was asked by those police officers, were you with him, they may have moved on this quicker. They may if he had been honest and said no, I wasn't with him, why is he saying that? Oh, no, no, that guy's weird.

1:23:24 It actually spoken honestly. The cops may have actually pulled him in and taken this seriously and taken the minute Cindy said it, and therefore Robin Pelkey could still be here. Or should be. Pushing by now, but. Yeah, but I I think that that's on the police that murders on the. Police on the police as well. 100%. But John Henning's fucked up. Oh. Totally. A big time. As I said, I'm pretty sure he did come out after the fact and express his regret in doing that. But enough, I mean not enough. No, no, don't accept your apology.

1:24:00 No, no. Neither should Robin Pelkey's family. I'm sure they don't. Yeah, I wouldn't. No way, no do not, I mean God, seriously, what? What? I just can't get my head around what would make someone do. That I know. I really don't. I don't know. Especially as you said, especially given their relationship or kind of lack thereof. Yeah, they weren't besties. They weren't like, you know, long lost Bros. As as much as I say, like, you know to you that I would bury a body for you, you know, like, I mean that metaphorically, yeah.

1:24:31 I know that saying stuff, but there's no. Way when it comes to the crunch you. Know I mean never. Seriously. No. That's someone's life you have literally fucked over. Yeah, yeah, go to hell. So Cindy Paulson is an absolute hero. Legend. She's incredible. So Maxwell, she survived. The killing stopped. Yep. It was because of her, not these other men who fucked up between Maxwell Farrell and Cindy Paulson. Yeah, they are the heroes of this story. They really are. Because and also the other women who tried to escape.

1:25:06 Well, absolutely. You know they are. Yeah. Yeah, sorry things ended the way they did for them. I don't know if we. Actually mentioned like so Susan Heppard she escaped as well and Patricia Roberts, I'm sure we. Yeah, we didn't touch them. Yeah, there's so many. I know. Which is insane, just insane. I just Oh my God. And there are others that they do believe could potentially be linked to him, but they have no he hasn't confessed to and he hasn't because he. He's dead. Yeah, and. Well, yeah, that's not going to happen.

1:25:33 No. But yeah, this is this was huge. And getting into it, I'd heard of the butcher, Baker, all those sorts. Yeah, really deep diving into all. God, I've been angry these last week. I know, I know. Same. It's I just found in particular the way I think because Cindy had direct dealings with the police, I found that such a frustrating and horrible situation. Yeah. And then the fact that like, it's like almost when the other sex workers were reported missing and it just, they didn't, the police didn't really do anything because they were sex workers.

1:26:10 Yeah. I just think that's horrible. That's. Awful. Everyone deserves to be looked for, no matter what they do. For no matter what exactly. Like if you want to judge someone in that, judge the men who are going to them. Yeah. And utilizing their services. They only have those jobs because people are gonna pay them to do it. And so, well, good on them. They're making a living. And they were making good money, I think, yeah, given the population. Absolutely. Good on them. Because a lot of these men, like the ones who moved to Anchorage to work on this pipeline, they didn't have a lot of other things to spend their money on, no, Or spend their time doing.

1:26:41 I don't. Think these women, you know, would have to be honest. I mean, a lot of the time what these women do isn't sex work. A lot of the time it's therapy. Let's be really honest. They would listen to these guys where no one else would listen to them. Like they're away from their family and they're lonely. And so they take the services of someone who's going to spend some time with them, whether they're paying them or not. Yeah, whatever. Yeah, who cares? Yeah. Now, as you said, I think at the start of last episode, we could not potentially touch on absolutely everything.

1:27:10 There is like actually one thing I did want to just say it was the FBI profiling. That was the other thing that we didn't really bring up. I mean, there's so there's actually so many things we didn't bring up. But yeah, it was just, this was in the early days of criminal profiling and I think it really set the tone maybe going forward, especially like in the United States, for sure. Yeah. And how much emphasis and onus they put on an A criminal profile when they were looking for suspects because the FBI fucking nailed it.

1:27:41 They absolutely nailed it. So John Douglas, who was the Mindhunter, Yeah, actually worked on this case and he predicted that the killer probably stuttered and had a very low self esteem due to his physical appearance. Yes. I mean, it's just, I don't know how. How do you know that? I don't. I mean, obviously we're never going to find out their techniques and how they know, but I just thought that was really, really fascinating. And they fucking got him to a tee. Wow. I want to know what makes him know that he would have a.

1:28:13 Stutter. I would love to know that. Yeah, but they can't weigh their secrets. No. Oh man. Yeah. Incredible. Yeah. It's really led the way in terms of where they're at now. And yeah, clearly they'd already honed a number of their skills at this point, obviously. Yeah. Amazing. Yeah, Yeah. Oh gosh. All right, now next week, we're changing tune a little bit. Yeah. We are going to be discussing the Lynn family murders. Incredibly fascinating case. I love. Yeah. This is a good one. And yeah, we really look forward to having you join us all there.

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