Episode 89 - Robert Hansen: The Butcher Baker Part 2 of 2

0:15 Welcome guys to Part 2 of our Butcher Baker episode for

0:19 another week. Here we are, Meg.

0:21 We are. We're still here.

0:22 We're still here. We're still here recording 2

0:25 episodes in one day. So you know, by the magic of

0:28 podcasting, this is actually being played a week later.

0:33 It's not my birthday anymore, but it is my birthday.

0:37 How does that work? No joking, I kind of know how

0:41 this all works. One of us better.

0:48 Yeah, right. So you've had your birthday by

0:50 the time it comes to this. Tell us how you're Well, we know

0:53 you're about to celebrate, but what are you doing for your

0:55 birthday? Nothing major this year, keeping

0:57 it low key. You know, I celebrated my 40th

0:59 last year. We can't.

1:04 So no locate that one this year. Yeah.

1:08 So just hang out with family. Tomorrow afternoon we're having

1:11 just going around to Mum's place and having dinner and stuff all

1:14 together. That's nice.

1:15 It'll be nice. We're gonna go out.

1:16 But then, like, it's Mother's Day this weekend, too.

1:17 So crazy. It's just, yeah, we actually all

1:19 decided we just really wanted just quiet at home this year for

1:23 that sort of stuff. So for many reasons.

1:26 Yeah. So we're just gonna do that

1:27 tomorrow afternoon after sports and shit.

1:29 So yeah, yay, yay. I mean, I'm tonight meant to be

1:33 going to footy training. Which Obama?

1:37 My kids are sick. And when you told me that, I was

1:40 like, silver lining. I mean, no one wants their kids

1:43 to be sick, obviously, but far out.

1:45 The silver lining of that is you don't have to go and stand out

1:47 in the freezing cold. And I think it's gonna be wet.

1:50 Yeah, tonight. I had already flagged it with my

1:53 son last night saying like if it's raining tomorrow, if I was

1:57 sort of like, if it's not raining, I don't mind so much.

1:59 Yeah. So if it's raining, I think we

2:01 might can it 'cause they're also missing footy.

2:03 We're not playing on the weekend.

2:04 Yeah, for other reasons. But I was like, I think I can

2:07 skip this one and it's my birthday.

2:09 It's your. Birthday.

2:10 I sort of tried to bribe him, like we're still gonna do this

2:13 anyway. But I said, you know, well,

2:14 because if we don't go, maybe we'll just, we'll go out for

2:16 dinner and have to get it away, get a bit take away or

2:19 something, get something, you know, and go, maybe we'll go eat

2:21 in somewhere, you know, like, you know, Yeah, nothing too

2:23 fancy because, well, my kids. Just anywhere with kids chips.

2:29 Might see if I can find something on the menu.

2:32 So yeah, well, I thought we'll make it.

2:34 Maybe do something like that tonight.

2:35 Just nice. Three.

2:36 That'd be nice. That sounds lovely.

2:38 The boys have, yeah, they'll, they'll treat me nice tonight.

2:42 So I'm sure they will they do this.

2:44 Have they given you a present? No, not yet, no.

2:46 Tonight. Oh no, that's kind of have

2:48 because my, my tattoo was my present from them for my

2:50 birthday. So yeah, we have already done

2:52 that. So that's strict, but they've

2:53 also got some other things, so you'll have some gold tonight

2:56 they'll be able to text you with.

2:57 Oh, I I actually can't wait. I friggin love that shit.

3:00 I love it when kids think of things on their own.

3:03 I just love what they come up with.

3:05 And combined with who they go with to shop for things, things,

3:07 it'll go well. It'll it'll be so it'll be gold.

3:10 Excellent. I love it.

3:11 I absolutely love it. Yeah.

3:14 So I think I spoke about I definitely spoke about in last

3:17 weeks episode that we went away to Halls Gap.

3:18 Yeah, Kent, right. And did this hike and coming

3:23 down I'm like, Oh my God, my knees are crunchy.

3:26 Oh my, crunchy. Everyday, yeah, doesn't have to

3:29 be a buddy. I'm like.

3:30 Oh, and I just bloody hate it. It's just such an uncomfortable,

3:34 awful, weird feeling. Yeah.

3:36 So I started looking into like, what can I do, you know?

3:38 Anyway, some a few treatment options came up and I'm gonna

3:42 give a couple of different bits on the tumour though.

3:44 Well, one of my work colleagues also suggested the turmeric.

3:48 Yeah, OK. I might give it a go.

3:49 It's fantastic. I'd swear by it.

3:52 OK, yeah, OK. Takes a while to kick in.

3:54 You gotta be on a. Consistency, I think.

3:56 I think from everything I've read, no matter what supplement

3:59 you take, consistency is the key.

4:01 Yeah. Taking it every single day.

4:03 Yeah. So you know how the algorithm,

4:05 you know it, it reads everything.

4:07 So I'm listen to everything. Listen to everything.

4:09 So exactly. So I'm on the socials a few days

4:12 later and this this an article came up and it was it was

4:17 specifically the headline of it was something along the lines of

4:21 for your perimenopausal crunchy knees and.

4:28 AI ING even like. I know it was like it's AI ING

4:30 the the perfect title just for me.

4:34 Win. Yeah.

4:34 Oh, wow. And it's like scientists have

4:36 now actually discovered the ability to Brock block this

4:40 certain protein that leads to accelerated cartilage loss due

4:44 to fluctuating hormones in perimenopausal and menopausal

4:47 women. Right.

4:48 And there have been some very early studies.

4:50 So we can't get too, too, too excited yet because it's

4:53 probably a few years away, but it looks like there may be

4:58 something you can take that'll block the thing that's causing

5:02 our cartilage to breakdown and the crunchy knees to start.

5:05 So imagine that that. 'D be amazing, but can yeah.

5:08 I need to rewind time though. It's already done.

5:11 There's no cartilage love. Problem.

5:12 Yeah, we need to be able to rebuild the cartilage actually

5:14 maybe maybe that. You can't, can you?

5:16 At the moment, Like I mean. I've I'm sorry, I've actually

5:19 written it down here. It has even shown to help

5:21 regenerate lost cartilage. Imagine that.

5:24 OK, so it can reverse time basically.

5:26 Yeah, I don't. Look, this was on social media,

5:29 so take it's a grain of salt. Can I be a Guinea pig for it?

5:33 Yeah, I'll. I'll be in the study.

5:35 Please please please. Oh God, yeah, I'd give anything.

5:38 I'll have my crunchy fucking knees, I know.

5:40 It's such a horrible feeling. It is gross like a great.

5:43 And it's like worse and I swear to God it like it's a bit

5:45 weather, you know, like related, because I find at the moment

5:49 it's worse and it's like over the summer it's not so bad.

5:51 And at the moment it's really bad and think, yeah, like, you

5:53 get that cold. Everything's kind of like

5:54 tightening up and creaking a bit bit more in the old weather.

5:59 Here comes the rain here anyways.

6:00 The rain again, if you can hear it in the background, it's

6:03 actually pretty heavy. It is my goodness, the.

6:06 Weather all over the show but no football for me so I'm happy.

6:09 You can rain all you want. That's really mean because I

6:12 have to go and I can't have a wine until I get home because

6:16 Peter's out tonight. I was.

6:17 Supposed to say to send Peter. Yeah, well, I normally I do.

6:20 Yeah, I'm not. I know this.

6:21 One like normally I'm down there on my own.

6:24 Yeah, yeah. Dad goes.

6:25 Yeah, that's a good dad job because he's normal.

6:28 He normally does work from home on a Friday.

6:30 But one night where I would do the whole like, you go and I'll

6:32 stay home and cook dinner. Yeah.

6:34 Yeah, no worries. Whatever you want, Yeah.

6:37 Oh, it's worth it. Totally worth it.

6:40 Yeah. Oh God.

6:41 Not tonight. Need to talk about something

6:44 though. You messaged me during the week.

6:45 Well, someone messaged us on the socials, I think, asking us

6:48 about whether or not we had watched a particular.

6:50 Document. Oh yeah.

6:51 God, I didn't know where you were going there.

6:52 I could. See that on your face?

6:53 And I'm like, oh, I'm gonna bring this on it.

6:55 No, it's. The other way around.

6:57 That this is great. So someone had messaged us

7:00 saying, had we seen the documentary Should I Marry a

7:02 murderer? And you said to me, if you get

7:04 time this week, jump on and and check it out.

7:07 And I did that very night. I'm like, oh, yeah, I'm down for

7:10 this. Yeah.

7:11 And funnily enough, it was hilarious that I I got set up

7:14 and putting it on. Well, first of all, I got shamed

7:17 by my bloody fire stick. I messaged you about.

7:20 I don't know what its problem was 'cause you know you've got

7:24 the the blue button and you talk into it and I use that all the

7:26 time when I'm looking for Dockos and that sort of thing 'cause I

7:28 don't necessarily what know which.

7:29 What to search for or whatever? Yeah.

7:31 So, you know, this week I did the whole Robert Hanson, like,

7:34 you know, sort of thing and just see if there's any dockos or

7:36 because it pulls up YouTube things, yeah, or whatever.

7:38 So yeah, I did the whole like, should I marry a murderer into

7:41 my remote? And bitch comes back to me and

7:44 goes, I don't think I'm in a place to search to to offer you

7:47 information on that. I'm.

7:50 Rude. Rude.

7:51 I think you should be telling me.

7:52 No, no, probably not a great idea.

7:56 But then following that, I started watching very briefly

7:59 and next thing I thought my kids were done and I sleep in bed,

8:01 but no, they weren't. And one comes toddling down the

8:03 stairs and Mace comes in. So I paused and because I've got

8:08 cheap ass Netflix, it comes up with an ad on the screen and the

8:11 show that you're watching sort of just a cut of it said should

8:15 I marry a murderer? And Mace comes down and

8:18 literally reads that off the screen.

8:19 And before he says anything else to me and just looks at and he

8:21 goes, I'm tipping no. And then goes he says to me,

8:28 actually, if I was you, maybe if he was handsome.

8:38 Thanks for having me back, mate. Thanks.

8:40 Darling, thanks, darling. It's not all about looks all the

8:42 time, but yeah, thanks. Thanks.

8:43 Thanks. Ohh, that's classic.

8:48 All the things that come out of their mouths sometimes, like

8:50 where? Where you gonna come from?

8:52 No. So I don't know where I love it.

8:56 I love it so good. Alright, let's yeah, let's have

9:00 a chat. What did you think?

9:01 First of all? So it's a three a three parter.

9:04 It's parter. Easy to watch.

9:05 Very easy watching. Yeah, I mean, although the

9:07 accent at times, they're obviously Scottish so.

9:10 But I love. I love the accent.

9:12 Yes, the main woman in it whose voice you hear most of her.

9:16 She's quite easy to understand, really.

9:17 Most of the time. Yeah.

9:19 Yeah. So.

9:20 Oh my God. Holy shit.

9:21 Holy. I'd never heard this story

9:24 before, like of this at all, had you?

9:26 Ever. No, I had no idea.

9:28 Absolutely no idea. So should we give a OK, spoiler

9:32 alert? You don't want to know anything

9:34 because we're gonna Docker. Go watch the Docker.

9:36 Skip ahead a minute or two because if you don't want to

9:39 hear any spoilers. But clearly, like, I mean, from

9:41 the title, you know, a few things.

9:43 You can make some assumptions here that someone murdered

9:45 someone. Yeah.

9:46 So for those of you who don't want to go and then watch the

9:48 three hour commitment of, of watching this, basically this,

9:52 she's she's an incredibly intelligent woman.

9:55 She's a medical pathologist. Yeah.

9:58 So she's a student or no? She's coming the end of it.

10:00 She. Was coming, yeah, I think she

10:01 was in her residency maybe and she was pursuing path of

10:05 pathology, forensic pathology specifically.

10:07 So she was doing autopsies and and you know, a lot of post

10:11 mortems for various reasons on different people.

10:15 And so you need to be a medical doctor to be able to do that and

10:18 then specialize in pathology. So very well educated.

10:21 Absolutely. She apparently she has a

10:26 photographic memory. And I was like, ah, that says a

10:29 lot. That says a lot.

10:30 Yeah. So she, yeah, coming to the end

10:33 of her studies and I think by the sounds, but she'd been a

10:36 little bit unlucky in love. There'd been a relationship

10:38 that. Ended very bad, very long term

10:40 relationship that had clearly not been a bit toxic.

10:43 Yeah, by the sound. And which I mean, as it happens,

10:47 you don't really realise how toxic it is until you're out of

10:49 it. I think she'd by the end of it,

10:50 realise that where she thought that relationship was going,

10:53 which was marriage and all those things, this guy had really sort

10:56 of done her over a bit and kind of, you know, like been a bit of

10:59 a Dick, so. And yeah, toxic, it's probably

11:03 way to put it, yeah. So she gave it a little bit of

11:06 time, but then she's back out on the app, whatever and swiped

11:10 across this farmer. Yeah.

11:13 And matched. And I was think was on Hinge.

11:15 Maybe they matched and they set up a date and anyway they hit it

11:21 off I think. How far did she have to drive to

11:23 Seamos? Hours it.

11:24 Was a good hour or more like plus kind of stuff.

11:27 It was like, yeah, a good couple hours.

11:28 Maybe, yeah. And so that meant that I think

11:30 that would have accelerated the relationship quickly because you

11:33 would have had to have almost done overnight stays and stuff

11:36 pretty quickly. Yeah, it wouldn't have been

11:38 worth doing short little trips and stuff anyway.

11:40 You're. Not going out and just going for

11:42 coffee kind of thing. And going, yeah, he was kind of

11:44 nice. You're going and spending the

11:45 day with him at least. Yeah, kind of thing on the farm

11:48 that first visit even. Yeah.

11:49 And things are going all right for them and things are

11:52 progressing. He has a twin brother, an

11:54 identical twin brother. And they are, you know, 2 peas

11:59 in a pod, really. And anyway, what we find out

12:03 eventually is that, yeah, basically she, they essentially

12:10 that the two brothers are working together, doing all this

12:14 stuff together. They spend the bulk of their

12:16 time together. Yeah, they were coming home from

12:19 a pub I think one night and had a few drinks.

12:23 They hit a cyclist and we find out over the course of the

12:27 documentary that he didn't even die immediately.

12:31 They did nothing about it. They then went and got a

12:34 tractor, dug A shallow grave and buried him.

12:39 And then this man's a missing person and no one knows what

12:43 happened to him. It was in the middle of the

12:45 night. He'd been coming home from like

12:47 a no. No, he was on a charity.

12:49 Charity bike ride. He was a cancer survivor and he

12:52 was doing a charity. Bike ride, just to add.

12:55 Insight into Scotland, yeah, doing that.

12:58 And so, which I mean, not to victim blame at all, but the

13:02 publican even where he'd had dinner that night that he'd come

13:04 in quite late to there and the publican had sort of said to

13:06 him, mate, can I get you a room for the night?

13:08 Because they'd got talking, knowing what he was doing and

13:10 saying, can I get a room for you for the night?

13:11 Because you don't want to go back out on the road riding at

13:13 this time. There's no St. lights out here.

13:15 Like it's dark as and the guide kind of go no, no, no, I'm on my

13:18 path, I'm doing I'm doing my thing, which I mean so

13:21 dangerous. What he you know, to go out on

13:23 that road doesn't mean you deserve.

13:27 What happened? Oh God, no.

13:28 But then also, you know what though?

13:31 Also, you could then come at the fact that he was accidentally

13:35 hit, but it's what they did after and the fact that they'd

13:38 been drinking too, so drink driving.

13:40 Yeah, but then he wasn't dead and they.

13:44 Oh, anyway, so the main, you know that the girlfriend, yeah,

13:52 she then they tell her about this and he praises.

13:55 To her first. Oh, yeah.

13:57 And then I mean, which is all quick and everyone's a bit like,

13:59 well, this is all moving. Way six months like of knowing

14:01 it. Less.

14:02 I think it was like it was less. It wouldn't be 3 months.

14:05 Oh fuck yeah. I think I feel like it was like

14:07 real quick. So the friends and family are

14:09 kind of like, well, we've even met this guy and yeah, you know,

14:12 you're getting married and but they sort of announced this

14:14 engagement. And doesn't he announced it

14:16 without telling her? Yeah, he put it on face on

14:19 Facebook. Without telling her, and she

14:20 wanted to tell other people. Yeah, I think she told her

14:23 parents. But then the next thing, it's

14:24 already up on social media. Yeah.

14:26 So it was very public then. All very quickly.

14:30 Yeah. So but then he then pretty much

14:32 in like, I feel like it was in like the same day even that he

14:35 proposed to and Donald, and this is all occurred.

14:37 He then discloses that, oh, by the way, I might have killed

14:41 someone or I did kill someone. Yeah.

14:44 And that you're the only person in the world that I trust to

14:46 have this information. And so she's kind of like, whoa,

14:50 because she kind of, she fell in love very quickly.

14:53 She's like, holy shit, this life that we were just literally

14:57 flashed before my eyes about what we were going to have.

14:59 And now I've got this in my lap. What the hell do I do with this

15:03 information? Now, can you put yourself in her

15:06 shoes if I can help? Because I think that's why he

15:08 announced it on the social so early to really lock it in show.

15:13 I mean, just she, I think he put her in such a shit.

15:17 I mean, obviously he put her in a shit position by telling her.

15:20 Yeah, but also for the fact that he then went and announced it to

15:24 the world essentially. And you kind of almost that

15:28 would add a layer of, oh, I can't really go back on this.

15:31 Now, wouldn't it, which is what she found herself in of like, Oh

15:33 God, holy crap, I'm I guess you've got all your friends and

15:36 only telling you you've done the wrong thing by saying yes to

15:38 this, like getting married so quick, like getting, you know,

15:40 proposed to you so quickly today and to be going already

15:43 defending him and now you've got this and then you're supposed to

15:47 what? Now you turn around and go Oh,

15:48 no, no, that was off real quick. I can imagine you thinking, Oh,

15:51 no, no, now I'm going to sound really stupid.

15:54 Oh fuck. Yeah, All right, so tell me.

15:57 Tell me your thoughts. Oh, man, so many thoughts.

16:00 So many. Because she, I mean, she does

16:02 some unusual things as this progresses through like, but I

16:06 can actually come at her unusual behaviours, yes, and.

16:09 No. She's not supported.

16:11 Enough by the police. By the police, 100%.

16:14 That's where I go back to. And then psychologically, I can

16:17 understand on a level why she did what she did certain things.

16:22 I'm with you on that. Yeah, Some of the things she

16:23 did, I'm like, Oh no. Mate, but again, I'm not in

16:26 those in her shoes to know what I'd do and I guess you'd kind of

16:29 get wrapped up in it. Fucking shits me the police.

16:34 So she goes to them and she says them what her information is.

16:38 So she's done the right she's. Done the right thing,

16:39 absolutely. But at that point, the police

16:42 never treated her like as if she was in a slightly vulnerable

16:46 position here. She said to them, we've been

16:48 dating. Yes, only for a short time, but

16:49 we have. We know we're in this position.

16:51 We're actually fiance now. Like we're not even just I'm a

16:54 daddy guy for a few watched. Yeah, like they're locked into

16:57 each other and they haven't gone.

17:00 Oh, we might need to look out for you here and protect you in

17:02 some way. Oh, I don't even even know

17:05 utilize who to get more information out of him.

17:07 Like they could have used her in that scenario rather than going.

17:11 OK, thanks for information. Leave it with us and we'll deal

17:13 with him. We'll investigate.

17:15 And they've pulled him in for and like, like arrested him and

17:18 his brother and you know, like, and then question them and then

17:21 release them because they'd never have information.

17:23 But they still know it's not, they're not releasing them

17:25 because they don't think that this has happened.

17:27 They're releasing them because they're like, we need to

17:29 investigate. For and they needed to find a

17:31 body. They didn't have the body yet.

17:32 Yep. So they've released him and so

17:34 she's then left out in the world kind of going.

17:38 He doesn't know that I'm the one.

17:39 Or does he know that I'm the one because I'm the only person he's

17:42 told so then he calls her going, holy shit, I've just been

17:46 released like this just happened.

17:47 And she's. Yeah.

17:48 I don't know what I'd do in that scenario, whether I would go

17:50 with it and go I. Think, OK, so I when I was

17:54 watching it, I actually bristled.

17:56 When that happened. I was like, Oh no.

17:59 Then when I actually thought about it and put myself in her

18:02 shoes, I think I would have done exactly the same thing because I

18:05 wouldn't have wanted to confront him.

18:06 I'd be like, OK, like he doesn't know it's me.

18:08 He's thinking it's not me. So I'm going to go along with.

18:11 That shit man who? Would know.

18:13 Yeah, you're right. Oh, how?

18:16 Awful. Absolutely.

18:17 And because I know I'm in a position now where he's open to

18:21 me and talking, I could find out more information.

18:26 Oh, see this? That's where I she could.

18:28 Find where the body was. Because he'd already talked to

18:30 her about like, moving the body, Yes.

18:32 So she already had an in like if she had what the way she went

18:36 about it, I I was the wrong thing, was the wrong thing

18:38 because oh fuck, I'm that's scary.

18:40 Yeah, but if she if the cops had used her and protected her to do

18:44 it, agreed. It could have been done so well

18:48 and. Really.

18:48 I feel like there was such AII don't.

18:52 I can't actually quite put my finger on her.

18:56 Yeah. And I think she was in a fragile

19:00 psychological state from the end of her last relationship.

19:03 And hadn't healed from that. I agree with that.

19:06 And then this motherfucker start a fair number on her because

19:09 he's love bombed to the NTH degree.

19:12 So I think she was just in a really bad.

19:14 Way she was in a rich but I still so OK So what she's done

19:19 is she's taken it upon herself then to if he started talking

19:24 about things to do with the murder or if she was going down

19:27 a pathway of asking him questions she would start

19:30 recording it yeah. She was trying to find out

19:32 information that she could then feed to the police.

19:35 They hadn't asked her to do that as you said, which was a missed

19:38 opportunity for sure yeah but in them not engaging her they also

19:43 then provided no protection for her.

19:45 So she was putting herself into such a fucking vulnerable

19:48 situation. Yeah.

19:51 And I get at the core of it, she was trying to do the right

19:54 thing. Yeah, but she also was involving

19:58 herself more. And so I'm like, it's such a

20:02 double edged sword. And I really like, I was so

20:05 frustrated watching it at some point because I'm like, walk the

20:08 fuck away. I.

20:09 Mean, look, in hindsight, you know, kind of stuff she should

20:12 have and could have said to him, look, I don't know if I can do

20:17 this. I no, it wasn't me that went to

20:19 the cops, but I feel like, because I do know, I now feel

20:23 like I'm in a position where I can be pulled into this and I

20:26 just, I'm not going to say anything to the police, but I

20:29 want to walk away from this and I just don't want to be around

20:31 you. I wonder what would have

20:34 happened. I know.

20:35 Like. So she like, you know, that's

20:37 the other thing like she would have that would have potentially

20:39 put her in a really vulnerable position.

20:41 As well, violent he was, she didn't know what his Yeah

20:43 demeanour would be around. And then the other thing is

20:45 like, because of for her, I can certainly see in the in the

20:49 course of the documentary, I can certainly see that she was

20:54 becoming more and more reliant on drugs and alcohol to cope

20:58 with the situation. And he and his brother were also

21:02 partaking in. That they were.

21:03 They were already, that's right. So how did that affect them as

21:07 well? And the fact that their drug use

21:09 was escalating and, well, I assume theirs was as well.

21:14 Probably. Under stress.

21:15 Under stress as well. And the amount of alcohol that

21:19 was being consumed on the top of all that.

21:22 Yeah. What, you know, that would have

21:25 changed the volatility of the situation as well.

21:27 So yeah, I guess there's a lot of nuance in the interpretation

21:29 of it from her perspective. But I still, there's still

21:33 something about it that just makes me go, oh, I just wish you

21:36 had a fucking walked away. I.

21:38 Just don't. I think she really just.

21:39 Felt that she couldn't yeah, and the.

21:41 Cops went like she went to the cops and asked them for support

21:44 and their response to her. And I'll back her on this, that

21:47 that's what cops do and that's what court systems do.

21:51 She was told she can't talk to anyone, not even a psychologist.

21:55 And The thing is with that is that then the psychologist notes

21:58 get subpoenaed. And so it's all this vicious

22:01 thing of when there's a an incident of sorts of then what?

22:08 Keeping information clean, I guess, in that what they didn't

22:12 want to have happen is have her be a witness, right?

22:14 Yeah. But have a psychologist whose

22:15 notes that the the defense can subpoena and then these those

22:19 psychologist notes come out that, yeah, she's in a bad way.

22:22 Why wouldn't she be totally, you know, should be I'm right.

22:25 But then that can then mean that her witness statements become

22:29 questionable and therefore not usable in court as well as they

22:32 wanted them to be. So this is this vicious cycle of

22:36 you need to protect witnesses. But by them doing that, a

22:40 psychologist notes, could fuck their their case, you know,

22:44 which is such bullshit. Yeah, because people need to be

22:47 able to talk to someone openly. Yeah.

22:49 And have that support. Yeah.

22:50 But she wasn't allowed access to it.

22:53 Yeah, it's. It's ridiculous.

22:54 Yeah, it's ridiculous. Yeah.

22:57 It's so like I just found myself when I was watching it, I was

23:01 just like so frustrated by the whole thing and I was like,

23:04 fuck, it was really getting to. Me, I come at wish I understood

23:09 where she was coming. From Yeah.

23:10 But also, yeah, going Oh my God, no, no.

23:13 Don't do that. And then I felt for a mum and

23:15 dad, oh God, they were so impacted by this.

23:17 When her dad got really upset, I.

23:19 Was like. I've had a couple of

23:22 interruptions to this episode, guys.

23:23 Not that you'll probably see them because of Meg's

23:26 extraordinary editing abilities, but.

23:28 You'll see that Emma's banner keeps getting moved.

23:30 Though my my robovac is can't. Fix that in editing.

23:36 My robovac is really trying to get in here.

23:41 Really wants to vacuum this area.

23:43 Really sorry mate, sorry, but you actually can't get in here.

23:46 So constantly knocking at the door.

23:49 Anyway, I think it's I think it's gone now.

23:52 I think it's got the hint and then no, it's gone, not here.

23:57 OK, but yeah, watch. Go check it out.

23:59 Oh, I want to know what everyone's know.

24:00 Netflix. Yeah, I want to know what

24:02 everyone thinks because it's yeah, it's really, yeah.

24:05 Really fascinating story. Honestly, yeah, really

24:08 interesting. So thank you for the reco,

24:09 whoever recommended that I actually didn't write down who

24:11 it was. Sorry, sorry.

24:13 Thank you. Thank you.

24:14 All right, shout outs for today. God bring it.

24:16 We have so many new Patreons. So a massive, massive thank you

24:21 to Tanya Martin, Julia Foster, Morgan Clark Dolman, Shelley, C,

24:28 Allison Riddle, Peter Lynch and Katie.

24:32 So thank you everybody for joining.

24:34 You have no idea no how much this means to us like we are.

24:37 Every time it's pinging we're. Yeah.

24:39 Oh, we're just. Oh, that's amazing.

24:43 Yeah, it's, it's absolutely not lost on us.

24:46 So thank you very, very much. We have had coffees, bought

24:50 wines, let's be honest, 'cause you know, it's Meg's birthday

24:52 month, so Meg's. Birthday year.

24:55 Yeah. And we've had coffees bought for

25:00 us by Wendy Franklin, who she said she didn't want to play

25:03 favorite, so she wrote Megan, Emma, Emma and Meg.

25:08 And yeah, so it was very, very cute message that she sent along

25:12 and from Helen Bryson as well. So thank you very, very much.

25:15 Thank. You.

25:17 Now the other shout out I just wanted to give was to, well,

25:21 actually two of our followers who have their own Instagrams

25:26 that I just love watching. So the garden at Jason Manor,

25:30 yes, now she is phenomenal and she often likes and comments and

25:36 really supports us on the socials.

25:38 She said she loves our banter. She's been a really long time

25:41 supporter and she found us through one of her other friends

25:44 who I also absolutely love following a country mum.

25:47 So at a country mum on Instagram, she's fantastic.

25:51 I love watching her videos, she's so entertaining, she's

25:54 fantastic. So please follow them both on

25:57 Instagram, Graham, they are fantastic.

25:59 So the first one is at the Garden at Jason Manor and the

26:02 second is at A Country Mum. Their content is top notch.

26:06 Absolutely. Love it.

26:08 Brilliant. So thank you ladies.

26:09 And again with this month we've got our merch giveaway.

26:13 So if you are keen to come and join us over at Patreon, $5 a

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26:21 So you got to enter join up with Patreon before the 4th of June

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26:40 So come and join the Patreon and yeah, might win a merch pack.

26:43 Woo. Hoo, good luck to everybody who

26:46 has joined so far. Yeah, you might.

26:47 Get one of these hoodies. Like what I'm wearing?

26:49 Yeah, stay curious. Or absolute piece of shit we

26:52 actually got over here. Oh yeah, we go.

26:55 Oh yeah, you can get a coffee mug if you want.

26:57 Sweet piece of shit put. That in why not All right, so

27:02 let's get on with today's episode.

27:05 We are now doing Part 2 of the Butcher Baker of Alaska episode

27:10 and we kind of left things last week.

27:13 If you haven't listened to last weeks episode, please go and do

27:16 that before listening to this because there's a lot of context

27:18 that so much you need to know and that we'll probably be

27:21 referencing when we discuss today's case or today's episode.

27:26 Sorry as things go along but basically we left off last

27:29 episode and Meg had mentioned the finding of the remains of

27:34 Occlutina Annie. These were discovered next to a

27:37 power line in a wooded area which was a mile South of South

27:41 Occlutina Lake Rd. and to this day she has never been

27:46 identified. Her remains were found on the

27:49 21st of July in 1980 and these so in the progress of all of

27:58 these crimes, she probably falls somewhere in well definitely by

28:02 the state of her remains. Unfortunately, when she was

28:05 found, her body had, this is horrific, but her body had been

28:09 largely consumed by wildlife. So it was really difficult to

28:13 establish A cause of death, although there were confessions

28:19 that were made when her body was found.

28:22 And when the perpetrator, who we know now to be Robert Hanson,

28:28 when he sort of confessed to her murder, he said that he stabbed

28:33 her in the back. So he had gone and looked for

28:37 her. So he started with this, I'm

28:39 going to call it an MO like he had a, he had a pattern of what

28:43 he would do. He would go out and seek sex

28:47 workers out on the street. He would offer them money to

28:51 come into his car to either for oral sex or penetrative sex.

28:58 He would then go through with that, not pay them, essentially

29:04 abduct them. And in a lot of ways, his

29:07 behaviour certainly escalated to the point where, So I think, you

29:11 know, in some instances he would.

29:14 We'll talk specifically about each victim.

29:17 But it escalated to the fact where he really did start to

29:21 essentially hunt these women like they were prey.

29:26 And that's what makes me think, like a stabbing in the back is

29:30 very much that, like, she was trying to get away.

29:33 It was like a prey trying to get away.

29:34 He stabbed her in the back, which he fully admits to doing.

29:38 He said that she was just a topless dancer or maybe a

29:42 prostitute. And, you know, it's really,

29:46 really sad to think that to this day, she's never been

29:49 identified. You mentioned in our previous

29:52 episode that there was a list of missing women at the time.

29:56 And her her appearance didn't really fit anyone who'd been

30:00 officially reported missing. Yeah, the state troopers of

30:05 Alaska did seem to think that upon investigation, she may have

30:09 come to Alaska via California, but they don't know where she

30:13 was originally from. No.

30:14 And no one ever has claimed, you know, claimed her or they're.

30:20 Still trying to identify her through like DNA and.

30:23 Things like that. Genealogy.

30:24 Doing all those things and stuff.

30:25 Yeah. So.

30:26 But yeah, unfortunately at this stage never hasn't been

30:29 identified, which is really sad, but so sad.

30:32 He would. Robert Hanson would also, as

30:34 well as what you're saying, like, you know, engage the sex

30:37 workers in like an act. But he was, he would also ask

30:40 them, tell them he was would do a photo shoot with them and he'd

30:42 like compliment them that, you know, he wanted to do a photo

30:45 shoot. And that would sort of set them

30:47 up for like almost like a date, like a escort kind of

30:49 arrangement. But at the same time as it like

30:53 sort of alluding to that he could they could do modelling

30:56 and things. So there was another one of his

30:58 MO's to use as well. Just really fucked up.

31:01 Fucking piece of shit. Yeah, yeah, which there were

31:04 plenty of plenty of women who said that they had been

31:07 approached by him but with that exact proposition who found him

31:12 weird and went Oh no, no, no, I'm not interested in that.

31:15 But then there was plenty of girls who did sort of go, oh,

31:17 that's that could Get Me Out of from doing like, you know, the

31:21 other the sex work that that you know that.

31:23 Oh, OK. Well, yeah, modelling would be

31:24 much, much more my thing that I would like to do.

31:28 It sounds far, far nicer. So it was a good pool for them

31:32 to sort of get involved in, but that's not really where he had

31:36 expertise. No, no.

31:38 So we know we spoke about last episode about the attack on the

31:42 housewife and the rape of the sex worker, which happened in

31:46 the early 1970s. Now it was in the mid 70s.

31:51 So between 1975 and 1977, these escalations started to occur and

31:56 there were more bodies being found in a lot of the times the

32:01 bodies were found in the wilderness in Anchorage and they

32:04 included like they were, they were dying from a lot of the

32:08 times gunshot wounds to their back.

32:12 And often it was their skeletal remains that were being found.

32:14 So they'd been out in the wilderness, probably attacked by

32:17 animals and, you know, found in, in just, you know, in a horrific

32:24 way. It's just absolutely horrible.

32:27 One particular body found where a gunshot he she died from a

32:32 bullet through the heart. One single bullet, but she was

32:38 obviously naked when that occurred and then been

32:41 redressed. Yes, when they found her body.

32:44 So because there's no evidence of that bullet going through her

32:47 clothing at all. So yeah.

32:50 It's just absolutely horrific. So, yeah, so those bodies were

32:53 being found, but no connection between the two of but by

32:55 between any of them was being made.

32:57 So they were very singular events to the police.

33:01 Other than Maxwell Farrell, I should mention back from our

33:03 other episode where we spoke about how she was already

33:06 suggesting that maybe we had a serial killer.

33:08 That was in the like 7475. She was doing that, wasn't she?

33:13 Yeah, this was before, like his main.

33:16 I just think if they had fucking listened to her, how many people

33:19 would have been saved? Well, even to this first one, we

33:22 could have saved someone too. Well, yeah.

33:25 So the first murder is believed to be that of 818 year old.

33:31 She was 18 years of age. Celia Van Zanten, she was

33:35 kidnapped on the 22nd of December in 1971, and she

33:40 actually froze to death in the wilderness after escaping from

33:44 him. So he abducted her, he took her

33:48 into the wilderness and she was able to escape.

33:52 She was able to get away from him and she almost, almost made

33:57 it out. She, I think she was something

34:00 like it was not very far. It was maybe several miles from

34:06 a road or something where her body was found.

34:09 Yeah. But she ended up dying.

34:12 She froze to death overnight. She succumbed to the elements.

34:15 Yeah, while she was trying to flee him.

34:17 He he doesn't admit to her death though, So there's where there's

34:21 an there's assumptions that it was, that he was the culprit.

34:24 So I guess it's probably worth noting there are many deaths

34:28 that he hasn't. Yeah, confessed to.

34:31 Yeah, there are ones that he did confess to, Yeah.

34:34 And then there were the ones that he was actually charged

34:36 for. Yeah, but we'll get.

34:38 We'll get to that, yeah. So, yeah, he basically though

34:43 when he when he kidnapped her, he did stab her.

34:46 He, he he was trying to cover something into her chest.

34:50 Oh, he just did some absolutely horrific things to this poor

34:53 young girl. Yeah.

34:55 And yeah, I I. What a horrible way to die.

35:01 Oh God, yeah. Oh, she.

35:03 Just being terrified, all of them.

35:05 Aren't. Yeah.

35:06 But should we start at sort of the beginning of the end for

35:08 him? And let's jump in with let's do

35:10 a girl by the name of Cindy Paulson.

35:12 Oh. My God, I've deep dived her.

35:14 Yeah. Oh, this one gets me going.

35:16 Oh, God, yeah, sorry. Cindy Paulson on June 13, 1983.

35:21 She was 17 years old. She was a teen runaway and was

35:25 working as a sex worker in Anchorage.

35:27 So she was very, in some ways naive.

35:30 She, a lot of the girls that she worked with said she didn't

35:33 really want to take her clothes off and things like that, which,

35:35 you know, yeah, but she's 17. But, yeah, obviously I reckon

35:39 had a pretty, pretty hard life before that sort of thing.

35:41 And this was her way of trying to make another new life for

35:43 herself in Anchorage. But she so according to her

35:48 friends that and to her, they that Hanson had approached her

35:53 and again, said that would you like to come to a photo shoot

35:56 and things. And she was really excited about

35:58 this, that this was something that, yeah, because it meant

36:00 she'd have to take her clothes off necessarily.

36:01 So she was up for it. But he did, unfortunately, he

36:07 pulled a gun and he kidnapped her.

36:09 So abducted her. And he took him, took her to his

36:11 house where he had this room, this basement and.

36:16 Oh, my God. Oh.

36:18 It's so creepy. Photos of her So as we said,

36:22 he's a hunter and he's got up on the wall and if you're into

36:24 that, I guess that's what you're into and he had up on the wall

36:27 all these heads of. Trophies, yeah.

36:30 Trophies. Yeah, they are trophies, aren't

36:32 they? Yeah.

36:34 All these animals that he's previously killed, I guess, and

36:37 that's how they do that. I'm not really into that, but

36:39 okay, They were all over this, this room and there was a pool

36:42 table. There was it was like basically

36:44 a man's den, you know, like man cave.

36:48 Yeah, he brutally raped her in that downstairs basement.

36:53 Yeah. He then tied her around her neck

36:56 with a chain and tied that to a pole in the the basement as

37:01 well. It was actually to a an overhead

37:04 beam. So, yeah, the, the ceiling of

37:07 the basement had exposed beams. Yeah.

37:10 And he tied her around the neck, but also by her wrists.

37:13 Yes. And it was actually her wrists

37:15 that we used to tie her to this beam.

37:18 And there was through the beam, there was a bolt and a hook.

37:22 And he he basically hooked her onto this bolt system.

37:26 Right. Yeah.

37:27 OK. This is really important.

37:28 Yeah. And then after he'd finished

37:33 raping her, he decided to lie there and have a snooze on the

37:36 couch. Yeah, in the basement.

37:38 And he said to her, don't you dare wake me, or I'll do that to

37:41 you again. Can I just say to you something

37:44 that's really, really freaks me out and I only read this in one

37:47 place. So maybe it's not true like, and

37:49 I don't usually like to use things that are not mentioned

37:51 more than I like things mentioned in one place.

37:53 But I sort of had I read this in kind of an I can believe that.

37:58 So when you have a starter like he did, usually it flares up

38:02 when you're under stress and he's more it's, it's definitely

38:06 heightened when you're not when you're in a calmer situation

38:09 like a lot of people who sing, a lot of people sing who've got a

38:11 stutter because it's very relaxing and calming for the

38:14 throat, for the, for the mouth and for the the vocal cords and

38:17 things. And people don't stutter when

38:19 they sing. There was mention that when he

38:21 was in these moments of an attack that his stutter wasn't

38:25 there. No, I I definitely read that.

38:27 Yeah, OK. And I just find that.

38:30 This is the thing that also helped him in some ways because,

38:35 yeah, the police were like, well, they would, a woman would

38:38 mention a stutter because that's a, a potentially defining thing,

38:43 right? Yeah, It's something that would

38:45 identify him. And so in the cases where they

38:49 haven't said that the perpetrator of, you know, when

38:53 they're trying to identify him had a stutter, they're like, oh,

38:55 then it wouldn't have been. It wouldn't have been.

38:56 Bob turns out actually a stutter.

38:59 Like, you know, yeah, turns out, yeah, absolutely horrific.

39:05 So he's then woken up from his slumber.

39:08 He has taken her down off the off the beam and put her in his

39:15 car. She was wearing blue high heels

39:18 at the time. And he drives her to the

39:23 airstrip where his plane is kept.

39:25 Now he he needed to do a few things in order to get the plane

39:30 ready to fly. I think he needed to refuel.

39:32 He needed to pop some bits and pieces into the plane.

39:35 And I think he did. He need to put another seat in

39:37 or something. I don't know, I remember just

39:39 reading I had to load the. Cockpit.

39:40 The cockpit, whatever that with, whatever with.

39:42 Whatever he needs to load it with, Yeah.

39:43 So he has left her in the car. Now, she is still bound by her

39:49 wrists by this chain, but. And so he's been locking the

39:53 door as he's coming, coming and going from the car.

39:56 At one point, Cindy notices that he didn't fully shut the door.

40:02 And so she's like, this is literally my only opportunity.

40:06 I've got to give it a go. Yeah.

40:07 So she kicks off her blue high heels and leaves them in the

40:12 front seat of the car on the front passenger floor.

40:16 Passenger floor of the car. Yeah.

40:19 She. Escapes out of the drive side.

40:21 So she had to basically somehow shimmy herself over to the

40:25 driver's side and open kick the door open.

40:27 And she just ran. She just ran as fast as she

40:31 could. Yeah.

40:32 She got to. It was like State Road 6 or

40:36 something like that. Yeah.

40:38 And she came upon a truck driver who pulled over, could see that

40:44 she was very clearly distressed. She.

40:46 Her hands were still bound at this point.

40:48 And she basically said to him, I've been raped.

40:50 Like, I'm. I'm help, help, help me

40:52 somebody. You've got to help me take me to

40:54 the nearest motel. Yeah.

40:57 And the truck driver's like, oh, OK.

40:59 You sure you don't want me to take you to the police?

41:01 And she's like, no, no, I need to go to such and such a motel.

41:03 My boyfriend. Or yeah, I've got my boyfriend's

41:05 there, my boyfriend's there. Yeah.

41:06 Turned out it wasn't her boyfriend, it was her pimp.

41:10 Fiddy sent in. Fiddy, yeah.

41:13 Fiddy frozen ground. Sorry, the.

41:14 Movie, which isn't really true to events, but you know, Fiddy

41:19 does play this character. Yeah.

41:21 Now when he gets sorry, when she gets there, the the truck driver

41:27 then continues on on his truck route and as soon as he gets to

41:29 work, which I think wasn't that far away, he calls the police

41:33 and he's like, this is just what's happened.

41:35 This is the person I've just picked up.

41:37 This is all very weird. Need to.

41:39 Go check this out. Yeah, the police immediately,

41:40 dispatch, I think they dispatched a couple of

41:43 detectives initially to the motel where he dropped, where he

41:47 dropped her off and they interviewed her.

41:51 Now she basically said to them, you will find this evidence.

41:57 I left my shoes in the front seat of his car when I was at

42:00 his house. 'Cause they she also notes that

42:02 in the back seat of the car are a particular pair of blue

42:04 runners as well. Yeah, so she, she also, so it

42:08 wasn't just her belongings that were left behind.

42:10 She could identify other things that she had seen.

42:12 She very. Clearly she also remembered the

42:14 tail number of the plane, which he had apparently printed on his

42:18 plane in the smallest legally allowed font, right?

42:22 But she noticed it and remembered it, right?

42:25 So they then looked that up and it's registered to Robert

42:28 Hansen. Yep, they go to his house and

42:33 now this was probably many many hours later that by the time

42:38 they get to her house now to his house, he has had time to go

42:44 back to that house and reset it to 0.

42:49 He knows they're going to be looking for where she was.

42:52 Chained up. So when she when she ran, we

42:54 should say like he chased her for a brief bit, but then he

42:56 just went. Nah, Nah.

42:57 And then got in his car. Yeah.

42:59 Peace bolted back home, knowing the police were coming to to to

43:02 at least chat with him and probably search his house.

43:05 But still fairly confident in being able to throw his way out

43:11 of this. You know, absolutely.

43:12 Because previously he's. Been able to do Yep.

43:15 So the police have a look around and you know what, to their

43:19 credit, they have a very good look around.

43:23 OK, what they find in the basement is a They don't find a

43:30 chain, they don't find any bolts.

43:33 They do see that there's a mark in the wood in the.

43:35 Beam. There's a hole like in the in

43:37 the beam. Not a hole anymore.

43:38 No. It's been filled in with wood

43:40 filler because you know what? Do you know what actually

43:42 happened? He was firing gun.

43:45 No, he was cleaning a gun and he accidentally fired a gun and it

43:48 went through the beam. Yes.

43:49 So we actually had to patch that up.

43:51 That was yeah, He just patched that up recently.

43:53 Mm. Hmm.

43:55 Mm, hmm. But the room was exactly how.

43:57 She described. It Mm hmm.

43:59 So yeah, I mean, but. Did they believe she'd actually

44:02 been there of her own free will, or did they think she'd been

44:06 taken there? This is the fucking.

44:08 Problem to it all, though, is that.

44:13 Well, yeah, Robert Hanson says no, this is what that's that's

44:18 bullshit. You know, says that he, you

44:20 know, he had a bit of a running with her, but that was it

44:22 because he was with some friends.

44:26 Two of them in particular. I'm going to name the son of a

44:30 bitch because I hope it haunts him to this day by the name of

44:35 Oh my God, I'm going to find it and I'm going to say it.

44:37 John Henning. Yep.

44:39 John Henning, you suck. You're a fucking piece of shit.

44:43 Has come out later and said I really regret I.

44:45 Fucking hope he does, and forever does.

44:47 He should. He should because I'm sorry

44:49 someone's life is gone because of him.

44:52 Yeah. So I, I, I don't know that that

44:55 was the only time either. No this.

44:57 Is it? There's at least one that I will

44:59 100% say is on his head. Yeah.

45:02 So apparently those two but ones named John Henning.

45:06 Yeah. The police said I was with

45:08 these, these guys. The police go to them.

45:10 Now, these people were people that his wife had set up play

45:14 dates with. They were not his good close

45:16 friends. They were not, you know, Hey,

45:18 we've known each other for a million years.

45:20 These were for him, even if I wasn't with him, like I know he

45:23 wouldn't have done anything. No, no, no.

45:25 Barely knew the bloke, barely really knew.

45:27 Had actually made statements to people about how they found him

45:30 awkward and weird. Yep.

45:32 But when they were asked by the cops randomly, hey, were you

45:36 with Robert Hanson? That on this, this date, in that

45:39 time, what did he fucking say? Yeah.

45:41 Oh yeah. Yep.

45:42 Yep. Man, Yeah.

45:44 Good bloke, good bloke. Him.

45:46 Yep, fuck me. Fuck off.

45:48 What I just there are not look, maybe you and one other I would

45:53 lie to the police for you know. You probably shouldn't say that

45:59 in a public. Podcast, but what the fuck?

46:04 Yeah. I this infuriated me.

46:07 Oh, it's it's disgusting, especially because I think the

46:10 police gave some context around why they were asking to.

46:13 Yeah. So to me, that even more makes

46:17 it that even makes it worse. Like with no context, maybe

46:20 you'd be like, oh, fuck, is he cheating on his wife or

46:22 something? Like he had a sex worker in his

46:24 house or something. Yeah, yeah.

46:25 Like I'll vouch for him, but you know, but I'm pretty pushing it.

46:30 Absolutely. Yeah, but fairly innocent, I

46:34 guess, in the grand scheme of things.

46:35 But they actually said they were investigating murders.

46:40 Oh yeah, yeah, I was with him, yeah.

46:41 Yeah, yeah. No, not, not Johnny, not not

46:43 Robert. Sorry, but not Robert.

46:44 He's a great bloke. Yep.

46:46 Bullshit. Johnny, he ain't.

46:48 So the the police did interview Hanson in relation to Cindy,

46:52 right? Yeah, and they believed.

46:54 He basically, yeah. He basically.

46:56 Oh, they did, yeah. And This is why I deep dived to

46:59 this one because I'm like, it's so fucking disgusting.

47:01 Oh, God, yeah. So Cindy, he.

47:04 So Hansen said that he'd offered Cindy $200.

47:10 They had rough consensual sex, and then she upped the price to

47:17 $300 and he wasn't going to pay. So she went to the police as

47:21 revenge, saying all this stuff that he'd done as revenge

47:25 because he owed her $100. But you'll find a pattern in

47:29 that, in that that's his. Like you'll find a way to blame

47:31 the victim every fucking time. Yeah, because Cindy was a sex

47:37 worker and was only 17 years of age.

47:41 The police gave put no credibility in her statement.

47:45 No. So this is on.

47:49 This is fucking unbelievable to me.

47:51 I'm talking now about the search and what they found, right?

47:53 Yep. In his house they found an

47:56 aviation map with all these XS all over it.

48:00 OK, which? Didn't mean much to them.

48:02 No, it didn't. At first it didn't.

48:04 No. No.

48:05 They found weapons, which OK, that correlates with his hunting

48:09 passion. However, however, they found

48:12 jewelry that was later than linked to victims.

48:16 So at the time, again, the police didn't know who this

48:18 jewelry necessarily belonged to. They knew it didn't belong to

48:21 his wife. No, they still didn't question

48:27 him any further or detain him and ask him about these.

48:31 Things well, so they did bring him in for questions.

48:34 They brought him in, Yep, but they didn't detain him.

48:37 Well, at this point they no. So when they had him in for

48:39 interview, well, they brought him in purely for interview so

48:43 they could go and check the house at this point.

48:45 So they did get to a point where they're like, actually, I think

48:47 he might be the black the guy we need to look at.

48:51 So what they did is they set up their interview room to look

48:55 like they had heavily investigated him, when in fact

48:59 they. Had only just started.

49:01 Yeah, but they made it look like they'd been watching him for a

49:03 long time. They had up, you know, on the

49:06 whiteboard, like connect the dots kind of.

49:08 Yeah. They had like those strings.

49:09 Strings like, we'll make up some shit, you know, like you.

49:12 Know what you see on like CSI or something?

49:14 Tape of stuff like strewn across the table like a photos of, you

49:17 know, people that they, you know, women that had been

49:20 reported missing or, you know, that they'd found dead.

49:23 And just, you know, sort of they set the scene with him to sort

49:25 of keep him busy so that they could go and look at his house

49:28 without him there. But at the same time, because

49:31 they, they really didn't think they were going to find

49:34 anything. They were basically convinced

49:35 that, oh, no, I don't think we'll find much, but we want him

49:37 out of the house so they can look at it cleanly.

49:39 They did take with them. They convinced Maxwell Farrell

49:42 to go with them because she, in her own time, had been

49:47 investigating this far more thoroughly than any of the other

49:50 detectives, because she was convinced that there was a

49:53 serial killer. So what she had been doing was

49:55 she actually created a spreadsheet of all the women who

49:58 had been, could be, had been documented as missing and spoken

50:03 to family, all those sorts of things.

50:05 She had actually done the hard work of going, yeah, no, people

50:07 haven't. People have found that person

50:09 that is that that girl did end up back in her hometown.

50:11 Oh, no, this one. No, we haven't seen her.

50:13 We don't know, oh, any tattoos, any jewelry that they wore, any,

50:19 you know, things that we could identify them with or

50:21 potentially if there is a serial killer.

50:23 She even had the forethought to think if there's a serial

50:26 killer. Serial killers I know take

50:28 trophies and jewelry is something that they quite often

50:32 do keep from these things. So if I take an inventory of

50:36 items like that, maybe I'll be able to connect the dots if we

50:39 find another body and or you know, if we find somebody who

50:41 has these. Bits of jewelry, amazing boots

50:44 to the ground. She was.

50:45 All over incredible. So they took her with her with

50:48 them to this search so that when they did find in the attic in

50:52 hidden in the insulation, it was found where these containers

50:56 with the with jewelry in them, They showed them to Maxwell and

51:00 she was able to like with no shadow of a doubt, go.

51:05 I know who that belongs to and I know who that belongs to.

51:08 They're all these women that we've been looking for.

51:10 They belong to all these women. It was unbelievable.

51:15 They wouldn't listen to Maxwell prior to this.

51:18 And they wouldn't listen to Cindy until Maxwell's.

51:22 Then, I mean, the the evidence was pretty damning.

51:26 But yeah, Cindy was able to accurate, accurately describe

51:30 the aeroplane. Yeah.

51:32 His house, the basement, the weapons he had.

51:35 These are things that she couldn't have invented.

51:37 She could have left her shoes there.

51:39 I don't know, like, planted her shoes in his car.

51:42 Like they things that they initially dismissed.

51:46 Yeah. It was becoming more and more

51:48 evident that they shouldn't have done that and that that the mind

51:53 set of the remainder of the Police Department really started

51:57 shifting at that. Point, though, they all got on

52:00 board at this point. At this point I realized holy

52:03 shit, this guy is not the good guy that he's tried to put

52:06 forward. Yeah, Oh yeah.

52:08 But yeah. And then I just say then there

52:10 was the map that they found with all the asterisks on it.

52:12 There was 21 asterisks on this flight map and when they were

52:18 looking at them to sort of got kind of go, what's the relevance

52:20 of this map here? You know what's going on?

52:23 They started asking some other detectives who had looked into

52:26 the the bodies that had been found.

52:28 Where did you find that? Including Annie's body, you

52:30 know, and they come over to the map and kind of, oh, it was a

52:33 roundabout 00 where that Asterix is.

52:35 Oh, on Joe Blow, you were working on that case.

52:38 Come here, come over here and have a look at this map.

52:39 Can you tell us whereabouts did you find that body?

52:42 You know, Oh, actually exactly where you've already got marked

52:44 on the map. Like it's that that Asterix

52:46 right there. That's where we found the body.

52:48 Oh, crap. Could all these Asterix be

52:51 bodies? Fuck, fuck.

52:54 There's a lot more than we thought there was the.

52:56 One of the really serious challenges to this though, yeah,

52:59 was the fact that, you know, the map was actually quite zoomed

53:03 out, so each X or asterisk actually represented like a 10

53:08 mile radius. I'll put the map up.

53:11 I've got photos of the map. Yeah, I'll put it up on our

53:13 social so people can see. And even when when you do, zoom

53:17 in and look at it yourself. That's.

53:18 A like you can tell by how like where things are, how things are

53:21 located, that you can see that it's it's still a general vibe

53:25 of it's somewhere here. Yeah, Yeah, that's it.

53:27 Yeah. So what what that meant, though,

53:29 was that they couldn't really use that map to go to these

53:32 places and go, oh, the body's gonna be exactly here.

53:34 No, they needed more information.

53:36 No. But so a little bit more of

53:39 evidence that came back to them too was a bit more Ballistics

53:41 evidence. So once they managed to get so

53:43 the guns that were found also in the insulation in the attic, one

53:47 of them was matched to a Ruger Mini 14 rifle, which doesn't

53:51 mean much to me, however, that they were, what do you call

53:55 them, shell casings? Shell casings that were found

53:57 with bodies that they already had that matched that exact

54:02 rifle. Yeah.

54:02 So it's like he had a it was these .233 or two 2-3 caliber

54:08 bullets that apparently hunters use.

54:11 It was a common hunting bullet, yeah.

54:13 But yeah, they were, they were a match for that particular gun

54:17 that that they found that he'd hidden.

54:19 Yeah. The rest of his guns weren't

54:20 hidden. No, he had a lot of guns and

54:22 also in that in that man cave, there were loads of guns in that

54:25 room, but these ones were hidden in the insulation and that one

54:29 of them matched the casings of these these other this body or

54:33 two of the bodies are. Two.

54:34 Yeah. They don't even actually might

54:36 have. Oh, no, I think it was 2.

54:37 Sorry. Actually it was 2.

54:38 Yeah. So, yeah, basically with this

54:42 sort of evidence that they went in with, we've got you on these

54:44 things. Fortunately, fortunately, I

54:47 think he confessed to a number of these murders.

54:52 So he was officially arrested in October 27th, 83 but and then by

54:58 the time we get to February 22nd of 1984, they get a full

55:02 recorded confession from him of these murders.

55:07 He does not confess to 21 that they've got asterisks for on

55:11 these maps. He confesses to 1717.

55:16 Yeah, murders. Of women raging in age from 16

55:20 years to 41 years of age they The police suspect that he did

55:27 kill the 21 women why he didn't admit to all of them we don't

55:31 really know but then how do you get in the mind of.

55:33 Us. I actually think that a point,

55:34 what he was confessing to was they literally sit with the map

55:37 and point and any new details. Oh yeah.

55:40 Of oh, this one, this Oh no, no, no, this happened with that.

55:43 And he'd go into it. Whereas I think, you know, he

55:46 didn't remember certain ones of I think other other maps, other

55:48 marks, he might kind of go, no, I don't remember that so much.

55:53 You know what I mean? I think it was more that than

55:55 him. Not that him saying I don't not

55:58 saying that he didn't do them, but he's like, I don't remember

56:00 that one. So I'm leaving it.

56:01 I'm just not going to touch that one.

56:03 Due to the way, I mean, we'll get into a little bit more about

56:06 each of the victims in a minute. But due to the way that they

56:09 were found, how long it was after they were murdered that

56:13 they were found there was it was really difficult for police to

56:16 gather evidence. And so when they charged him, so

56:20 of the 17 that he sort of confessed to, they actually only

56:25 ended up charging him with or going to court in pursuit of,

56:32 Yeah, of charging of, of what's the word?

56:35 Four that they charged him with. Yeah, of four, so.

56:38 And the sexual assault of and rape sorry of of Sydney's the.

56:43 Abduction of her SO. They found a total of seven

56:45 bodies. But yeah, the way that that went

56:47 about was when he confessed, what they did next was they put

56:51 him in a helicopter and took him up over this area for him to

56:56 about a point to so they could go and find some of these

56:58 bodies. And the police officers that

57:00 have been interviewed about this are just it's it's unbelievable.

57:04 They said that he was like a kid in the canning store.

57:07 He found this to be the most exciting day of his life.

57:11 He was so giddy. To explain to them that word.

57:16 Didn't they a number of times they said that the helicopter

57:19 would land and he would literally fly out of that

57:21 helicopter to giddily show them, oh, it's over this way, this

57:25 way, this way over here I've. Actually just got goosebumps.

57:28 You saying that it's like just. Awful how he's like showing off

57:32 his work to these men. Like, you know, it was really,

57:36 they were all really taken aback by how his demeanor changed in

57:42 this, the time where he was able to, I guess, openly and freely

57:47 speak about what he had done. I just, it's gross.

57:51 It's so gross. It's so gross.

57:53 But through that, they were able then to excavate areas where he

57:57 sort of was identifying that these bodies would be.

58:00 And through that, they were able to find a total of seven bodies.

58:03 But that meant that another 10 that he was he was admitting to

58:07 killing, but they weren't able to find the bodies of which is

58:13 just horrendous. Oh.

58:14 It's it's absolutely horrible. I'll just quickly run through

58:18 the remainder of the victims. Do you think?

58:20 Yep, Yep. So the next one, I'm sort of

58:24 going by when they were when they sort of disappeared.

58:28 Yeah, that's. What I've got on the?

58:29 Next as well, so we've then got Megan Siobhan Emmerich who was

58:33 aged 17. She vanished on the 7th of July,

58:36 1973, in Seward, which is one of the like one of the little towns

58:41 in Anchorage. She's only a suspected victim of

58:43 his two. There is actually.

58:45 There's witness statements that have linked her to Hanson, but

58:48 he never admitted to her no being one of his.

58:50 Victims She was at a boarding school and she was last seen in

58:54 the laundry room of the of the school.

58:58 She has not been seen seen or heard from since the last person

59:02 saw her in there. Yeah.

59:03 She left behind all of her her personal items, her

59:07 identification, her wallet, everything's been left behind

59:10 Yeah. Her roommate ended up contacting

59:12 the police after looking for her for two or three days.

59:15 So they thought maybe she'd I've no gone off and met someone or

59:18 you know, something like that. But after she hadn't come home,

59:21 you know, they they contacted the police.

59:24 Hanson has denied any involvement, as you said to this

59:28 one, even he did admit to being ensued on the day of her

59:35 disappearance. And then witnesses seen him with

59:37 her. Yeah.

59:38 So yeah, OK, OK. I don't really get it.

59:46 Yeah. Similar to that was Mary

59:48 Kathleen Phil. She was 22.

59:51 She disappeared on July 5th, 1975.

59:56 There they believe there was an X marked on the map that linked

1:00:00 to her. But again, Hanson never admitted

1:00:04 to to killing her, but there it's very much strongly believed

1:00:09 that she was one of his victims. The next one is Joanna Messina.

1:00:15 She was aged 24, and she was out for dinner with Hanson on the

1:00:19 19th of May 1980. Yeah, Now, I think she was one

1:00:24 of the ones who he sort of was talking to about taking photos

1:00:28 and, you know, making her into some kind of glamour model.

1:00:32 Hanson says that before Messina offered him sex in exchange for

1:00:38 cash, things were going really, really well on this, like, date.

1:00:45 OK, Apparently Hanson refused to pay for the sex and then refused

1:00:49 to release her. So he drove her and she was, she

1:00:52 was with a dog. Like she had a dog.

1:00:54 At the time. She was the one that had a dog

1:00:57 and they he drove her to this place near the Snow River.

1:01:01 He struck her with a revolver. With this 22 caliber revolver.

1:01:07 He shot her twice and he shot her.

1:01:09 Dog once, yeah. He dumped her body in a gravel

1:01:12 pit. So she was, her body was found

1:01:14 not too far from where a gluten Annie was found as well.

1:01:17 Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it was.

1:01:19 I think it was about 3 months or so before her body was found.

1:01:22 He was quoted as saying that he killed her because she did not

1:01:26 develop genuine feelings for him.

1:01:30 Oh my God, that's why I shot her.

1:01:34 Oh yeah, Because it's always their fault.

1:01:35 It's not his. Fault.

1:01:36 It's 100% her fault that she didn't develop feelings.

1:01:39 Yeah, that's on her. Yeah.

1:01:40 And her dog. Yeah.

1:01:41 Yeah. Dogs are the best Judger

1:01:44 character. Well, yes.

1:01:47 Next we had Sherry Morrow. Now she her body was found in

1:01:52 September of 1982. However she'd been she

1:01:56 disappeared on the 17th November in 1981.

1:02:00 She was a topless dancer. She went by the name of Georgia

1:02:05 at one of the local bars on 4th Ave. in Anchorage and she found

1:02:10 she was found in a shallow grave.

1:02:11 She was actually found by some police off duty police officers

1:02:15 her body. Hunting along the river.

1:02:18 Yeah, she was found blindfolded, shot 3 times with a Ruger Mini

1:02:23 14, which is what was found in the in the attic, and she'd been

1:02:28 redressed after being murdered. Yeah, so the police officers who

1:02:32 found her, I I found this quite fascinating then like they're

1:02:37 retelling of it. Yeah.

1:02:38 So they were hunting along the Kinnick River, which is one of

1:02:42 these remote places that you, it's inaccessible by vehicle

1:02:46 even. And so they were hunt, they were

1:02:49 away for the weekend hunting. They've come across her body.

1:02:54 They've had to leave her body there to go back to their camp

1:02:58 to then decamp and go back to somewhere with who could

1:03:01 actually get enough or find a phone because, I mean, there

1:03:04 were no mobile phones. No, But get to a phone to then

1:03:08 obviously get proceedings in place to to actually someone out

1:03:12 there. Yeah.

1:03:13 Yeah. To actually find her body, like,

1:03:15 you know, process the crime scene and all of that.

1:03:17 Yeah. And the one of the police

1:03:19 officers in police officers in particular said that he found

1:03:23 that so difficult to leave her. Yeah.

1:03:27 He's like, you know, she's just been found.

1:03:29 And we had, no, we had no choice.

1:03:31 Like they obviously didn't have any choice.

1:03:32 And, and it's not like she could be saved, but I thought it was.

1:03:35 It really touched me that he was.

1:03:37 So it really hurt him to have to leave her and after she'd

1:03:42 already been dumped the way she had.

1:03:44 Yeah. One of the few good men in this.

1:03:46 Yeah, There are a few others from 1980s.

1:03:51 So we had Roxanne Eastland, who was aged 24, vanished on the

1:03:55 28th of June in 1980. She'd been residing at the

1:03:58 Budget Motel in Anchorage with her boyfriend for two weeks.

1:04:02 And she was meant to meet an, according to her boyfriend, was

1:04:05 meant to meet an unnamed man in downtown Anchorage.

1:04:08 Yeah, she was not seen or heard from after that meeting her.

1:04:15 Body's never been found unfortunately.

1:04:17 Admit to killing her. Hanson did admit to killing her,

1:04:21 but did not. They couldn't locate her body.

1:04:24 No. Lisa Futrell was 41.

1:04:28 She met Hanson at the nightclub where she worked.

1:04:30 And then he kidnapped her on the 6th of December in nine sorry,

1:04:33 September in 1980. When she didn't come in to work

1:04:38 the next day on the 7th of September for her shift, her two

1:04:42 younger housemates reported her missing to the police.

1:04:45 And this was in 1984. And this was one of the ones

1:04:48 that Maxwell was like, see, there is something going on

1:04:51 here. Yeah.

1:04:53 They found her body. Sorry.

1:04:55 In 1984 they found her body. Yeah, she disappeared in 1980.

1:04:58 Yeah, but found her body in 1984 and it was, yeah, along the

1:05:03 Kinnick Bridge. So we've got a lot in that area

1:05:06 coming up. Yeah.

1:05:08 So there's like, so we had the couple of bodies found like

1:05:10 prior to him, him confessing, Yeah.

1:05:12 And then through May and April and 1984, we get that's where

1:05:17 they've gone out and actually found these bodies.

1:05:19 So we've got that extra 7 that have found after his confession.

1:05:24 So, yeah, in that April, we've again, again got Malay Larson,

1:05:29 who was reported missing in July of 1981.

1:05:33 And she was found near a parking area of the old Kinnick Bridge.

1:05:37 Just also awful. And as well, Sue Luna, she was

1:05:40 found again in April of 1984, reported missing in 1982.

1:05:45 In May, she was also found near the Kinnick River.

1:05:48 Hanson confessed to taking her to the river and stripping her

1:05:51 and hunting her. Yeah.

1:05:53 So what he would do is he would strip them, take them out into

1:05:57 the. Fly them out.

1:05:58 There, fly them out there, strip them naked, go run.

1:06:01 Run for your life. He'd give them a minute or two

1:06:04 and then he would track them and hunt them.

1:06:06 And so I think she was shot. Yep.

1:06:08 She was shot three times in the back, I think.

1:06:10 Yeah. And just absolutely horrific.

1:06:14 Absolutely horrific. Just gross.

1:06:16 I mean, what a suck of shit. Such a fucking suck of shit.

1:06:22 Oh, Tamira or Tammy Patterson Peterson.

1:06:24 Sorry. It was also found in April of

1:06:26 1984 and she went missing in August of 82.

1:06:30 Her body was found in near the Kinnick River and she was

1:06:34 abducted and murdered with a 7mm Thompson contender which again

1:06:40 he had haunted her down as. Well, that was the other gun I

1:06:43 think that they found in the attic, wasn't it?

1:06:45 Or in the insulation space Insulation.

1:06:48 Space. Yeah, yeah.

1:06:50 We also have Angela Lynn Fedden, who was found in the April of 84

1:06:54 and disappeared in Feb of 83. She's probably one of the lucky

1:06:58 ones in that she was found a little bit sooner after being

1:07:00 gone. Yeah, that's very.

1:07:02 True, but but still not nice at all.

1:07:07 Dylan Renee Frey, who went by the name of Sugar.

1:07:11 She was a waitress and dancer and she was from Hawaii.

1:07:15 She was found in the August of 85.

1:07:18 Now she was also known as and by another name for a very long

1:07:22 time. No, sorry, I've got the wrong

1:07:23 one, haven't I? Yeah.

1:07:25 Yeah, no, I've got the wrong one.

1:07:26 Sorry, she was actually. She was found like in 985.

1:07:28 Sorry. Yep.

1:07:29 So she was actually Jane Doe originally.

1:07:33 So she was the one who they couldn't identify.

1:07:35 And she was the one that Maxwell identified because of her

1:07:38 jewelry. Yes.

1:07:39 Yeah. Right.

1:07:40 So she. She's right.

1:07:41 Who put the. Yeah, she put it together.

1:07:43 Absolutely. And so it was after she was

1:07:45 buried. So, you know, Maxwell was just

1:07:48 so fucking on the case, yeah, that she was able with family,

1:07:52 with people who knew her, to identify her, through her.

1:07:56 She was identified in 1990, actually.

1:07:59 Yeah, it. Was a long time after.

1:08:00 Yes, right. Yeah, Teresa Watson, who was 22,

1:08:05 was found in the April of 84. She did disappeared in the March

1:08:08 of 83. Her body was discovered near

1:08:11 Scenic Lake. So he had kind of changed a bit

1:08:13 of his MO and moved to a different area for the bodies

1:08:16 because he found the other area was becoming to to be crowded

1:08:19 with, with people coming in hunting and stuff.

1:08:21 So he moved areas. Paula Goulding, who I'll go into

1:08:26 more a little bit later, she that was awful.

1:08:29 She disappeared in the April of of 83 and her body was found in

1:08:33 September of 83. So again, at least found sooner,

1:08:37 but she was only 17. Another one who was so young, so

1:08:41 young. The next one is she was

1:08:43 originally known as Horseshoe Harriet.

1:08:46 Again, another one who had not been identified.

1:08:48 She was only identified in 19 in 2021 using DNA.

1:08:53 Yeah. Doesn't say.

1:08:54 Yeah, including Annie could still be identified using these

1:08:57 same techniques that we've. They've been able to identify

1:09:00 Horseshoe Harriet. So they literally had no

1:09:02 knowledge of who she was. They did try very, very, very

1:09:05 hard for a very long time. So it was really amazing when

1:09:08 only recently they actually exhumed her body in 2016 to get

1:09:11 the DNA to be able to do this. And then, yeah, they've

1:09:15 identified her as Robin Pelkey. She was 19.

1:09:19 She was found in the April of 84, but went missing in nine in

1:09:22 Sorry, she went missing in July 83.

1:09:25 So. Yeah, I mean, so.

1:09:27 The reason they nicknamed her Horseshoe Harriet is because her

1:09:30 body was found close to Horseshoe Lake.

1:09:33 Yeah. Yeah.

1:09:35 That's just so sad. So shit.

1:09:37 But yeah, I'm so glad they've been able to identify her and

1:09:39 her family have been able to know where, where, what happened

1:09:42 to her because they were looking for her.

1:09:44 It just never got connected that that body was hers until 20/21.

1:09:48 I mean, it's a long time later. It's a.

1:09:50 Long time later and you think, you know, I'm sure some really

1:09:53 key people in her life probably passed in that time not knowing

1:09:56 what had happened to her. So absolutely our thoughts go

1:10:00 out to them like that's, but you know, that's horrible,

1:10:03 absolutely awful. But yeah, Paula, we had like

1:10:07 there's a couple of couple of people who obviously escaped

1:10:10 him. Yeah, Paula Goulding is another

1:10:12 one who tragically didn't manage to in the end.

1:10:16 He he did kill her, but she was so close to getting away.

1:10:20 Again, though, I have to question this bit.

1:10:23 What would happen with her was that she was abducted by by

1:10:27 Robert and as he took her out, he flew her out to this very

1:10:31 secluded area. And this other plane flew over

1:10:34 and he could see that obviously whoever was in this plane could

1:10:39 see that what was going on between these two was not kosher

1:10:42 and started flying in a particular way, acknowledging

1:10:45 like, I see, I see you, you know, so apparently.

1:10:48 There's like this winged thing that they do and it's like

1:10:50 almost like a hello, I see you. I I'm acknowledging that I've

1:10:53 seen you and I know you're there.

1:10:55 Yeah. Yeah.

1:10:56 So she was kind of like then kind of trying to wave down, oh,

1:10:59 my God, help me, Help me. Yeah.

1:11:01 Which he, which Robert Hanson then, you know, grabbed her,

1:11:04 shoved her into a meat shed. They have these meat sheds up in

1:11:07 these hidden places where they can, you know, if they kill

1:11:10 something, they can store them, go out and hunt more, these

1:11:12 sorts of things. He threw her into this meat

1:11:14 sheds, yelling at her, telling her, like, if, if he happens to

1:11:19 land, I'm going to have to kill him.

1:11:21 And if you realize that if I kill him, I'm going to have to

1:11:24 kill you. And that's on.

1:11:25 You and that'll be on you. Yeah, so he did.

1:11:29 He does this eventually the plane disappears and goes and

1:11:32 clearly this guy, what did he even report that?

1:11:33 I don't know like. I actually so I don't think he

1:11:38 did no until. From Robin Henson we get all

1:11:40 this. Information.

1:11:41 Yeah. I don't think he came to the

1:11:43 police. Yeah.

1:11:44 Until this all came out. Oh, wow.

1:11:46 Which is revolting in and of itself.

1:11:48 We've said it before. If you see something, say

1:11:50 something. You don't have to say something

1:11:52 to the person. Go to the fucking police.

1:11:54 Go to the police. Go.

1:11:55 To the police, anyway. The pilot does.

1:11:57 He flies off and that's that. So, and Hanson then is he gets

1:12:01 her out of this meat shed and she is just beyond frightened as

1:12:07 you would be. She realizes entirely what is

1:12:10 about to happen to her. I've no doubt in my mind that

1:12:14 she realized at that point that he was going to kill her.

1:12:19 And so this is how what this is a quote from his interview about

1:12:21 her. And this is where you get that

1:12:25 narcissistic trait of him being able to blame the victim every

1:12:29 time. Yeah.

1:12:30 So he says she, he says she slapped.

1:12:32 She slapped at me. And she started running, you

1:12:34 know, she started running the rivers out this way and she

1:12:37 started running this way. I called up to her and I got her

1:12:41 stopped. I said, now look, it's over.

1:12:43 There's no real problem. The guy's gone.

1:12:45 It's all cool now, you know? But she had got hysterical and I

1:12:49 couldn't get her. Calm down.

1:12:50 So just the more I tried to talk her to her, maybe it was because

1:12:55 I was getting excited, but she just got more and more

1:12:59 hysterical and she broke away from me again and I started to

1:13:02 run. You know, I just reached back,

1:13:04 you know, the rifle, the laying there and I leaned up against

1:13:07 the building. I grabbed, I reached, I reached

1:13:09 back. I took a couple steps back and

1:13:11 grabbed that. I ran and I caught and I caught

1:13:14 her and I caught her again. And I said no.

1:13:16 Now look, I said don't make a bad thing worse.

1:13:18 Don't stop it. It's OK.

1:13:20 Bang. Then it just went completely.

1:13:24 Things just completely went completely went bad again.

1:13:29 He's completely bad means murder.

1:13:32 So throughout his confessions, he never ever said I killed her,

1:13:37 I murdered her or any of that. He used the terminology.

1:13:40 Things went completely bad. He never used language.

1:13:44 Which is really interesting, isn't it?

1:13:47 Well, because that makes him not the victim.

1:13:49 It's completely bad because of what they did.

1:13:51 Something happened. Something bad happened.

1:13:53 That's right. Isn't it completely removes the

1:13:55 onus. I didn't murder them.

1:13:57 I didn't commit the act of murder.

1:13:59 It was their fault that I had to act the way I did and retaliate.

1:14:04 That happened. The situation happened because

1:14:05 they they didn't do what I asked them to do.

1:14:08 They didn't have sex with me willingly.

1:14:10 Yeah. The other thing he said in this

1:14:12 same interview was, oh, maybe I just shouldn't have called it a

1:14:14 meat shed. Then she wouldn't have got so,

1:14:16 so upset. Oh my fucking Lord.

1:14:20 Maybe you shouldn't have tied her up and kidnapped her and

1:14:23 taken her in a plane to out into the wilderness and raped her, a

1:14:26 gun with you. And there's so many things here,

1:14:29 mate, that maybe made her scared.

1:14:31 Yep. Yeah.

1:14:34 I just had to read that because I just felt like when I was

1:14:36 reading all the transcripts that that stood out to me as like

1:14:39 this piece of shit. He had in a way of manipulating

1:14:42 everything being not his fault. Yep to the end to the to the

1:14:45 point of confession. His confessions weren't even

1:14:48 true confessions because it wasn't his fault.

1:14:51 No, it was never his fault. Actually, I've got a quote about

1:14:55 that. I might actually bring it up

1:14:56 now. Yeah.

1:14:57 So he blamed his tortured adolescence.

1:15:02 Go back to Yeah yeah, Part 1 about that.

1:15:04 Yeah, go to. Yeah.

1:15:06 He so one of the things that he says in his interview, because

1:15:10 the police like, why? Like, why did you do this?

1:15:12 Yeah, So he goes. Going back in my life, I was, I

1:15:15 guess you might call, very frustrated.

1:15:18 I would see my friends and so forth going on dates and so

1:15:21 forth and had a tremendous desire to do the same thing.

1:15:24 From the scars and so forth. You can probably see.

1:15:28 I couldn't see. I'm sorry.

1:15:29 I could see why girls wouldn't want to get close to me.

1:15:32 During my high school days, I could not control my speech at

1:15:35 all. I was always so embarrassed and

1:15:37 upset with it from people making fun of me that I hated the word

1:15:41 school. That's why I killed women.

1:15:44 Sorry, sorry. We we asked you why you killed

1:15:48 women you've and raped. Lives multiple, many.

1:15:54 Yep, oh wow, Yep, it's just awful.

1:15:59 Anyway, So yeah, I think the reason that he pled guilty to

1:16:04 the fore was because they had the shell casings.

1:16:09 Well, at the time they had their bodies.

1:16:11 They had their bodies. They had the four.

1:16:13 The four bodies they had. And they had the shell casings

1:16:15 to match. So it was like unequivocal that

1:16:17 they had a link between him and them.

1:16:19 It wasn't just his confession. They had solid evidence.

1:16:21 That's right. So at the end of the confession

1:16:23 in February, they were unequivocally able to link him

1:16:27 to the four bodies that they had.

1:16:29 Yeah. So that's where he got charged

1:16:30 with those 4. Then it wasn't until April, May

1:16:34 that they found the additional bodies.

1:16:36 So he wasn't then charged further with them because they'd

1:16:40 already started proceedings with the four.

1:16:42 They could have gone back I guess and charged him.

1:16:44 But we'll get to there's really kind.

1:16:46 Of no, there's kind of no point. I mean, it's I, I see why

1:16:49 there's a point, but I also see why they didn't because I think

1:16:52 things were going pretty well for the prosecution.

1:16:55 They got what they needed. They got what they needed.

1:16:57 Yeah, yeah. For sure.

1:16:58 So he was charged with the murder and can and convicted

1:17:05 ultimately of the murder of Sherry Morrow, Paula Goulding

1:17:08 Klutner, Annie and Joanna Messina.

1:17:10 He was also charged and convicted of the kidnapping and

1:17:13 rape of Cindy Paulson. Yeah.

1:17:16 So for all those five accounts there, he received a prison

1:17:23 sentence of 461 years plus one life.

1:17:29 I love that. Yeah, I guess.

1:17:31 I'm guessing the life sentence was for Cindy maybe, and then

1:17:35 the rest the 461 years was for the other.

1:17:38 Seen. How?

1:17:38 I haven't seen how they broke it.

1:17:40 No, I haven't either. No, I think about it, but yeah,

1:17:42 461 years plus a life, yeah. So no, no chance of parole,

1:17:47 absolutely no chance that he's getting out.

1:17:50 He was getting. Out 100% the high call.

1:17:52 Totally. I mean, yeah.

1:17:53 So it was a plea deal. He he didn't, he pled guilty.

1:17:56 He did not, you know, there was no trial as such really.

1:17:59 It wasn't a lengthy trial. It was, I think that might have

1:18:01 been like a couple of days in court sort of stuff it.

1:18:03 Was, but I think that was all around the sentencing.

1:18:05 Absolutely. Yeah, Yeah.

1:18:07 Yeah. No.

1:18:07 So he was permanently incarcerated for his actions in

1:18:12 this. No question.

1:18:14 But yeah, so then after that was done, I think pretty much

1:18:18 because he was pleading guilty to those four and they got that,

1:18:21 they took it to court very immediately.

1:18:23 So the sentencing was actually on in February as well, in

1:18:25 February 27th, 1984. So it wasn't until after all

1:18:29 that that they did find the other bodies.

1:18:31 So, as we say, don't need to go back.

1:18:34 No, I mean, he was already in prison for the rest of his life.

1:18:36 Yeah. And then and then some, yeah.

1:18:39 So it wasn't actually until this point, though, that his wife

1:18:43 divorced him. Yes.

1:18:45 So it wasn't until after he was sentenced that she divorced him,

1:18:49 which blows my mind. Yeah.

1:18:52 But then they weren't. It's not like they were together

1:18:55 through all of this. Like once he was arrested and

1:18:57 yeah, you know, obviously that ended the relationship.

1:19:02 What I I don't understand it but really?

1:19:05 Really feel for his kids. Me too, and his wife for that.

1:19:08 Because I mean, for to a point where I believe Darla knew he

1:19:12 was using. He was having sex with sex

1:19:15 workers. I, I yeah, I I very much know

1:19:19 that. OK.

1:19:19 She was aware that that was happening.

1:19:21 She did not. She was not aware that he was

1:19:23 murdering people. No, No.

1:19:24 I and I think that was. True, but I believe that she she

1:19:28 knew the marriage wasn't right and that that he was doing that.

1:19:31 But I think her, her religion came into play, you know, in

1:19:35 terms of kids, the kids and then having a father and just the

1:19:40 time, you know, that that's in the 80s.

1:19:43 You think there's a lot of? Stuck to your marriage?

1:19:46 Yeah, All that stuff. Unfortunately, yeah, When she

1:19:49 stuck around. When he was arrested, when

1:19:51 Hanson was arrested, though, the kids, I mean, obviously this was

1:19:54 in the news everywhere. And they weren't little little

1:19:56 at this. No, they were, I think,

1:19:57 secondary school age. 12, yeah. You know, somewhere around that

1:20:01 age. Yeah, so they ended up moving

1:20:04 from Alaska because the kids were apparently being bullied

1:20:07 relentlessly or, you know, picked on about it relentlessly.

1:20:11 They had a they had a loving relationship with their dad.

1:20:13 I mean that he wasn't, he wasn't the butcher Baker at home, no.

1:20:17 He was so. Baker Bot It's really hard for

1:20:20 them to comprehend not to say, you know, oh you know, he's such

1:20:23 a good bloke. I'm not doing that.

1:20:24 I'm not saying that, that he had this, he had a double life.

1:20:27 And so their perspective of him, he was dad.

1:20:30 Yeah, he was dad. He did all those things we

1:20:33 talked about of like in community.

1:20:36 Yeah, absolutely. So I feel for them trying to

1:20:38 then get their heads around this other life he had.

1:20:40 Yeah. Dulla moved them to Arkansas,

1:20:43 yeah, pretty much at the same time, yeah.

1:20:46 And so they ended up living, you know, out the rest of, Yeah,

1:20:51 their time there. But so he, Hanson died on the

1:20:57 21st of August in 2014. He was aged 75.

1:21:01 He just died of natural causes. Shame it wasn't.

1:21:05 I don't even know if it was painful.

1:21:06 It should have been. It should have been.

1:21:08 He deserves to rot in hell. What a piece of shit.

1:21:12 Can't, can't even. But I mean, we're just to bring

1:21:15 it back to like Cindy Paulson. She, she was incredible.

1:21:21 She escaped, she stuck to her story.

1:21:23 She was gutsy as hell to be able to come forward.

1:21:27 And I mean, these cops didn't believe her, but she can.

1:21:31 She did stick to her story. She's she, you know, gave

1:21:35 everything she she could. Yeah, I've read an interview

1:21:38 with one of the police officers who interviewed her and he said

1:21:42 at the time, so this is one of the cops who I'm, I'm assuming

1:21:45 wasn't believing of her story. Yeah.

1:21:47 But I think he turned a corner when they used all of their

1:21:51 tactics on her. You know, they make her tell the

1:21:53 story inside out and back to front and front ways and back

1:21:56 ways. And they were trying to trip her

1:21:57 up and, and figure out why she was lying.

1:22:00 You know, they obviously assumed she was lying and they were

1:22:03 trying to really catch her out. And he said we there, there was

1:22:06 not one detail that she did that she changed no across her

1:22:12 multiple tellings of this storytelling it backwards and

1:22:14 frontwards and asking random questions and all that.

1:22:18 And he said he found her after they'd done that.

1:22:21 He said, I, I found actually found her an incredibly reliable

1:22:25 witness. But why the fuck wasn't she

1:22:27 believed straight away? Why wasn't Maxwell Farrell

1:22:30 believed when she was, you know, speaking about, I mean.

1:22:32 I think a lot of it says about the time, yeah, the misogyny

1:22:36 that was, you know, absolutely rife in the police force.

1:22:40 Yeah, because the real tragedy in this of what I was leading to

1:22:42 earlier, 2 of that fuck wit. I'll say his name again, John

1:22:47 Henning. Now let's.

1:22:49 Just call him fuck wit John. Fuck wit John, let's do that

1:22:52 Horseshoe. Harriet, who later identified

1:22:54 it, was identified as Robin Pelkey.

1:22:56 She went missing on July 19th, 1983.

1:23:01 Cindy Paulson was abducted on June 13th, 1983.

1:23:05 Yeah. So his, her, her death is on

1:23:09 John. Definitely.

1:23:10 Because he, if he had that day when he was asked by those

1:23:12 police officers, were you with him, they may have moved on this

1:23:16 quicker. They may if he had been honest

1:23:19 and said no, I wasn't with him, why is he saying that?

1:23:22 Oh, no, no, that guy's weird. It actually spoken honestly.

1:23:27 The cops may have actually pulled him in and taken this

1:23:29 seriously and taken the minute Cindy said it, and therefore

1:23:33 Robin Pelkey could still be here.

1:23:35 Or should be. Pushing by now, but.

1:23:37 Yeah, but I I think that that's on the police that murders on

1:23:41 the. Police on the police as well.

1:23:42 100%. But John Henning's fucked up.

1:23:45 Oh. Totally.

1:23:47 A big time. As I said, I'm pretty sure he

1:23:51 did come out after the fact and express his regret in doing

1:23:56 that. But enough, I mean not enough.

1:23:58 No, no, don't accept your apology.

1:24:00 No, no. Neither should Robin Pelkey's

1:24:02 family. I'm sure they don't.

1:24:04 Yeah, I wouldn't. No way, no do not, I mean God,

1:24:09 seriously, what? What?

1:24:10 I just can't get my head around what would make someone do.

1:24:13 That I know. I really don't.

1:24:14 I don't know. Especially as you said,

1:24:16 especially given their relationship or kind of lack

1:24:18 thereof. Yeah, they weren't besties.

1:24:20 They weren't like, you know, long lost Bros.

1:24:24 As as much as I say, like, you know to you that I would bury a

1:24:26 body for you, you know, like, I mean that metaphorically, yeah.

1:24:31 I know that saying stuff, but there's no.

1:24:33 Way when it comes to the crunch you.

1:24:35 Know I mean never. Seriously.

1:24:37 No. That's someone's life you have

1:24:39 literally fucked over. Yeah, yeah, go to hell.

1:24:44 So Cindy Paulson is an absolute hero.

1:24:47 Legend. She's incredible.

1:24:48 So Maxwell, she survived. The killing stopped.

1:24:51 Yep. It was because of her, not these

1:24:54 other men who fucked up between Maxwell Farrell and Cindy

1:24:59 Paulson. Yeah, they are the heroes of

1:25:01 this story. They really are.

1:25:03 Because and also the other women who tried to escape.

1:25:06 Well, absolutely. You know they are.

1:25:08 Yeah. Yeah, sorry things ended the way

1:25:11 they did for them. I don't know if we.

1:25:12 Actually mentioned like so Susan Heppard she escaped as well and

1:25:16 Patricia Roberts, I'm sure we. Yeah, we didn't touch them.

1:25:18 Yeah, there's so many. I know.

1:25:20 Which is insane, just insane. I just Oh my God.

1:25:23 And there are others that they do believe could potentially be

1:25:26 linked to him, but they have no he hasn't confessed to and he

1:25:29 hasn't because he. He's dead.

1:25:31 Yeah, and. Well, yeah, that's not going to

1:25:33 happen. No.

1:25:33 But yeah, this is this was huge. And getting into it, I'd heard

1:25:38 of the butcher, Baker, all those sorts.

1:25:39 Yeah, really deep diving into all.

1:25:41 God, I've been angry these last week.

1:25:44 I know, I know. Same.

1:25:46 It's I just found in particular the way I think because Cindy

1:25:51 had direct dealings with the police, I found that such a

1:25:54 frustrating and horrible situation.

1:25:57 Yeah. And then the fact that like,

1:25:59 it's like almost when the other sex workers were reported

1:26:05 missing and it just, they didn't, the police didn't really

1:26:08 do anything because they were sex workers.

1:26:10 Yeah. I just think that's horrible.

1:26:11 That's. Awful.

1:26:12 Everyone deserves to be looked for, no matter what they do.

1:26:14 For no matter what exactly. Like if you want to judge

1:26:17 someone in that, judge the men who are going to them.

1:26:19 Yeah. And utilizing their services.

1:26:20 They only have those jobs because people are gonna pay

1:26:23 them to do it. And so, well, good on them.

1:26:25 They're making a living. And they were making good money,

1:26:28 I think, yeah, given the population.

1:26:30 Absolutely. Good on them.

1:26:32 Because a lot of these men, like the ones who moved to Anchorage

1:26:35 to work on this pipeline, they didn't have a lot of other

1:26:38 things to spend their money on, no, Or spend their time doing.

1:26:41 I don't. Think these women, you know,

1:26:43 would have to be honest. I mean, a lot of the time what

1:26:45 these women do isn't sex work. A lot of the time it's therapy.

1:26:48 Let's be really honest. They would listen to these guys

1:26:50 where no one else would listen to them.

1:26:53 Like they're away from their family and they're lonely.

1:26:55 And so they take the services of someone who's going to spend

1:26:58 some time with them, whether they're paying them or not.

1:27:00 Yeah, whatever. Yeah, who cares?

1:27:01 Yeah. Now, as you said, I think at the

1:27:05 start of last episode, we could not potentially touch on

1:27:09 absolutely everything. There is like actually one thing

1:27:11 I did want to just say it was the FBI profiling.

1:27:14 That was the other thing that we didn't really bring up.

1:27:16 I mean, there's so there's actually so many things we

1:27:18 didn't bring up. But yeah, it was just, this was

1:27:22 in the early days of criminal profiling and I think it really

1:27:25 set the tone maybe going forward, especially like in the

1:27:29 United States, for sure. Yeah.

1:27:31 And how much emphasis and onus they put on an A criminal

1:27:36 profile when they were looking for suspects because the FBI

1:27:40 fucking nailed it. They absolutely nailed it.

1:27:43 So John Douglas, who was the Mindhunter, Yeah, actually

1:27:47 worked on this case and he predicted that the killer

1:27:51 probably stuttered and had a very low self esteem due to his

1:27:56 physical appearance. Yes.

1:27:58 I mean, it's just, I don't know how.

1:28:00 How do you know that? I don't.

1:28:02 I mean, obviously we're never going to find out their

1:28:04 techniques and how they know, but I just thought that was

1:28:07 really, really fascinating. And they fucking got him to a

1:28:10 tee. Wow.

1:28:11 I want to know what makes him know that he would have a.

1:28:13 Stutter. I would love to know that.

1:28:15 Yeah, but they can't weigh their secrets.

1:28:17 No. Oh man.

1:28:19 Yeah. Incredible.

1:28:20 Yeah. It's really led the way in terms

1:28:21 of where they're at now. And yeah, clearly they'd already

1:28:24 honed a number of their skills at this point, obviously.

1:28:26 Yeah. Amazing.

1:28:27 Yeah, Yeah. Oh gosh.

1:28:29 All right, now next week, we're changing tune a little bit.

1:28:33 Yeah. We are going to be discussing

1:28:34 the Lynn family murders. Incredibly fascinating case.

1:28:37 I love. Yeah.

1:28:38 This is a good one. And yeah, we really look forward

1:28:41 to having you join us all there. Don't forget to pretty, pretty

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