Episode 88 - Robert Hansen: The Butcher Baker Part 1 of 2

0:15 Welcome back to Crime Besties. We are here on a very, very special day. It is Meg's. We are. It is. We're recording on Meg's birthday. Oh, happy birthday. Thank you to everyone for the amazing messages that I was just saying then that just pinging away from the socials thanks to Emma posting things on there. This. Morning. As I said, I, I, I think I put in our Patreon group, she's gonna hate this. So let's, let's get around her and well, actually. My little my little brother, I shouldn't say my little brother is much taller than me, but he thought he got me this morning with a bit of a funny joke that he was, you know, sent into the family group chat and jokes on him actually go on.

0:56 He sent a message saying, you know, happy birthday to the most incredible person I've ever. You know, he's had the pleasure of spending some what was it of listening to and gaining informative information from. This is a happy 100th birthday to David Attenborough today.

1:18 Oh, and by the way, there, thanks. Happy birthday, Meg. I wrote back to him and said this is totally fine. I am very honoured to share a birthday with David Attenborough. Oh, wouldn't you be? Wouldn't you be? Also, I am more than half his age so I'm feeling pretty good about that. Less than half his age. Less than more than I'm more than half more. I'm like, yeah. Well, you're less than half his age. If you were half his age, you'd be 50. Yeah, but so I'm more than 50 because more than like more than half, I'm like 60% his age.

1:49 Yeah, you're 60% of his age. Yeah. So that's. No, you're 60% younger than he is. Yeah, he's. Like how it works. No, percentage wise, that doesn't work. But you are you're you're younger than him. Yeah. I mean, you're. Yeah, but you're less than half his age. Yeah. Yeah. So you're less than 50. OK. Yeah. OK, that makes me feel older than him. No, you're not, because. You're less than 50%. Yeah. No, it's not. It's not percentage, it's years. She's also got a cold at the minute. My brain is not braining today.

2:20 Falling out well and forever. 2 sick kids at home. Oh, it's been. Yeah, exactly. Tell me you're a mum without, like, honestly. Yeah, of course they had to be sick on your birthday. Totally. I mean, one of them I could sense was coming down with it. OK. All week I've been like, Oh well, you know, is this? Coming to a. Head and then when I started feeling I'm well I'm like yeah I think he's I think he's given me like you know I feel like this is he's been on the verge and now I'm there OK but then the the younger one comes down this morning going I don't feel.

2:49 Good, because originally when you messaged me this morning, you, you you said like Mason's not well is it right if I bring him and you know he could sit on the couch. Oh, he's done that before when he's been unwell and we did not even hear which won't peep out of him and he's he's sorted perfect child. Yeah. But then when you when a few like, I don't know, 20 minutes later you message, you're like, oh God, oh God. The other one stick to. I'm like, oh, that's not gonna. Go They will fight on the couch instead of being quiet on the couch.

3:19 And Piper would be over stimulated. Oh my God, if Brody came with. Yeah, because, like, because obviously Piper is his child, even though it's your dog. Yeah, he believes that Piper and him are like soul mates. Or they are soul mates. Yeah, yeah. Oh God, the list of things that he'll come out to me of. Like, you know, Mum, I love you so much, but not as much as Piper. Like you don't even live in the same house. It's insulting me. And you have your own dog and and a fucking axolotl. Yeah, and a frog.

3:48 Papa wins. Papa wins. Yeah. She loves it when he comes over for a visit, gets all the attention and and all of that. So that's really nice. Love it. Absolutely love it. Life, yeah. How's the rest of your week been like? If you've been coming down with not feeling 100%, it's not great. Great. Week. No, it's been a bit of a it's just been busy and as well. So yeah, I think that's why I'm rundown and sick. But, you know, yeah, just soldier on. Yep, overdose on vitamin C and he could. Find in my household Panadol this morning.

4:19 Oh, have you got some? No. Oh, I could have given you. Some Oh no, but I found what I did find in my house was I had one box of Asproclia. So like Oh my God, that is so old person. I know. Well, I only had it in my house. My niece stay with me one night and she was a bit unwell and that was all she would have. And so it's been sitting in my house since like late last year that no one else touches has touched it, you know, So last night when I'm rummaging like going to bed, going oh God, I've got to take something to bed.

4:45 And yeah. And I found that and went fuck it. This. Will do. Oh yeah, in a pinch that'll do. But it reminds me of my grandma. She always took aspir clear, never a tap. Like, oh, the taste of it. I have to. It wasn't. It's not, wasn't it? No, it's not what I remember. I remember as a kid and it being quite tangy. Like tangy. Yeah. Where? No, it felt this. I think they've obviously. Updated it because it wasn't that bad at all. It's fairly bland. OK. All right. Yeah, it's obviously, that's obviously what she uses it, I think so, you know.

5:16 Yeah, yeah. Less flavour. OK, yeah, well, did it do the trick? It did last night. Coming off the back of the Tylenol episode last week, I think, you know, he asked for a clear, you know, got to give it a go, hey. Say after that episode, I've like become more aware of like, you know, things like that you can get into. And it was actually like the following day after recording that episode, I was making a sandwich or something and I'd open the bread up and went, well, someone could tamper with the bread and you.

5:45 Never, anyone would never get into bread. But you know what Peter said to me? He's like, which this actually it, it just made me go, oh, I mean, yeah. So he's like, they chose to put the cyanide into a capsule, whoever did it. Yeah, but you could easily just get a like, his thing was you could get a syringe with cyanide in it, inject it into like, say, a bag of knobbies, nuts or something like that. Shake it up and well in. Fact. Well, because I think it was like it smells like almonds. Bitter almonds like.

6:18 Disguise the smell. Yeah, inject it into there, shake it a bit around. Bit of that and a salted nut bag, yes. Exactly. And then?

6:32 This is a child, sorry. That's exactly what I was thinking, a salted nut bag. Is there any other way?

6:43 No, that's so true. But then like, so anybody could technically do that and you wouldn't be able to see necessarily see a pin prick through a like a needle prick through a, you know, a nut bag. Oh. Jesus. Yeah, yeah. No, that's so true. Yeah. I mean, yeah, you could. You could do it with all sorts of things, really. Well, let's not give people ideas though. No, that's a fairpoint, actually. Very. But why would you want to freaking out? Well, that's the thing. Thankfully, 99.99999% of people don't want to do that, no.

7:16 Most people aren't psychotics, but some people are, I guess. Yeah, yeah. So we went away last weekend. Yeah. We went to the Grampians, to Halls Gap, to an event called the Grape Escape. And it was such a fantastic weekend. Yeah, I highly, highly recommend it. It books out very, very quickly. But it was it was so much fun. And we we ended up going up a day early so we could do a hike one day. And I showed you the photo of that with me descending down these rocks. Oh my. Goodness, I didn't know what I got myself into, but you know, when you're in it, you're like, Oh yeah, this will be this is good.

7:53 It's like a good challenge. And yeah, at the end of it I was like, oh, thank God, that's so far. Can now go to the brewery and have my mind. Yeah, it was really great. It's such a beautiful part of Victoria. It's just stunning. I haven't been out the way in quite a few years. Now nor had. I had to go back to yeah, yeah, yeah. She missed the last trip they did to Horse Gap the. Boys, didn't you? That's right. Yeah. I didn't go to that. So yeah, yeah, they and Peter just took the boys on his own. And then, you know, there's like wild Kangaroos and emus everywhere.

8:21 And it was just, it was so lovely. Really nice family time. The not quite. Festival snakes now, so that's. Always. That's true. Much prefer it that way. The book they the festival had heaps of stuff for the kids to do, so it was just a really nice, really, really lovely. It was nicely, yeah. It was good for kids too, in terms of the festival. Yeah, I mean, probably for Lucas's age was probably like maybe Max, right? Although they did have a rock climbing wall which the kids all loved. Loved that, Yeah.

8:48 And then they had this really big craft area and they could make different wooden things and paint them and. Has kids busy while the adults drink. Yeah, I mean, duh. And then the boys saw on the on the little, you know, rundown of what was happening for, for the day that there was a badminton tournament. Yeah. We're like, oh, that's so exciting. We'll go over to the badminton. The the net literally went up to Oliver's waist like it was for toddlers, I think. Yeah. Yeah. Right. So there are a few things that probably weren't necessarily age appropriate, but still they yeah, there was still plenty for them to do.

9:18 Yeah, yeah, just. Even we gave them some money, they wandered around. I'm like, spend it wisely. You've got all day to spend this money. So they walked to all the different stalls and they, I mean they had a lot of wine tasting stalls, but then they had heaps. Of other stuff and stuff like that, yeah, and things. Yeah. So it's. Really cool. Yeah. Loved your Megan Emma stand. That was that was great. I know. What? How about that? Yes. So Megan, Emma, she does or they do that. They're two friends as well.

9:42 I went up and said hi to them and they do. You didn't tell them. Like, no, I didn't. I actually. Wouldn't.

9:50 Too impressed. I'm like, Oh, my friend and I, we have a podcast. And Emma as. Well, yeah, and or Emma and Megas, we got the got in the oven. So and then anyway, so they make these really beautiful, like sort of, I would say along the lines of like Gorman in terms of their bright prints and stuff. And they make all different bags and T-shirts and yeah, really cool stuff. Yeah, that was cool. Well, I love that kind of thing. Good names, good quality stuff. Totally. Yeah, Yeah, they were living up to to the standard.

10:22 Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And then the other thing that came up in my feed the other day is that we are actually a third of the way through the year now or over now. Yeah, that's really not right. I don't. How bizarre. Like I thought you did the first part of the year go Oh. Totally. I know. Yeah, that's not, it's not OK. One of my work colleagues said to me yesterday, she's like, next time I'm in your office, I'm going to be like, oh, look, Christmas is coming up and we'll be like, what? Yeah, yeah.

10:50 It feels like it's. Just we starting Christmas in soon you get the. Time I'm not that I'm not one of that early. I'm not that early. I was going to say I'm not one of those psychos, but if you are, you know, good on ya because it saves the I know it saves the stress it now I'm more I tend to do like a November you're October, November, October, November you get yeah. And then I I definitely like to have my list done as in what I'm going to get people. But now, because because of the Black Friday sales, I tend to do all of my shopping on that day.

11:20 I tend to like Black Friday comes and I start then like it's yeah, I should be planning pre but I don't. I literally go, hmm, what's here? Yeah, yeah. Neat ideas. I need inspiration. Yes. Yeah. I'm gonna be more organised this year, just like every. Other year? Sure, sure. Well, the people will hold you accountable to. That yeah, well, I'm sure. I'm sure we'll be getting messages. Have you started your Christmas shopping yet? I know somebody, a person at my work was telling me. I remember her telling me this last year.

11:50 She starts hers in July and wraps everything but. Then July I. Forget. I would forget. I would. I mean, you'd have to have a list, wouldn't you? Because I would. I wouldn't remember. There's no way to remember. Yeah. Oh, no, I'm, that's why I don't start early because I know when I have previously done that, I've bought things, put it away going. I'm so organized and then it comes to like October, November and that sort of thing, and I start buying things and then go, shit, actually I already bought something for that person.

12:16 Yeah, Yeah. And now I've spent more money and oh, they just have both. Yeah. Because I'm a sucker for that. I'm like, I don't do the whole like, oh, I'll hold that off till next time. Yeah. No, no, because then you'll forget next time. Yeah. No, I'm not. No, you can have everything I'd rather give. I hear ya. Yeah. And then? Yeah, and just spend shit loads of money. Crazy. I'm very good at that. Yeah, oh, Oh my God. Spending money, that's the easy part. My favorite thing to do? Oh. Same, just if there was more of it it'd be great.

12:42 Oh, that would be really good. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Endless amounts would be fantastic. Yeah, yeah. Sure would be, yeah. Speaking of which, did you watch any of the Met Gala? Speaking of endless amounts of money. I totally did like, oh I love it every year. Who? Oh so do I? Who is your favorite costume? I'm gonna call the costume from this year. Oh God, favorite. There's some freaking weird shit. Do you like the weird shit though? Yeah, I. Do love the weird in that I love to have a laugh at it or whatever I go are you fucking for real and how did you put that on yeah, that's what my thing is of like it's like more like how did you what made you decide to do that?

13:17 I. Felt that about the Kardashians. Like their little booby hard booby costumes with their nipple. Like the hard nipple and some like what? Manoeuvring things, yeah. But I'm like. What's who was the one with that had the person on the back? Oh, I can't remember who that was, but that was a good. One that was a good one I really liked. That yeah, I liked that too. And then Donna was a stand out for me with the ship on her head. Yeah. And and then all of her little, all her little floozies, like, you know, waving her, oh God, her Cape or whatever it was up the stairs.

13:47 Yeah, yeah, that was cool. She's such a vibe. Who? Else the one that irritated me though, and I think it's her in general who irritates me. And I feel really not a girl's girl when I say this. So like lively? Oh, tell me about it. Oh, no, I'm with you on that. I'm 100 and you know. What, so princessy that I'm just like, oh, you can't do that right now? No, you can't. Look like butter wouldn't melt in your mouth right now. Uh huh. Do you know what I mean? Just you need to either double down on what you're, what you're doing and what you're in this whole court case.

14:19 Well, and the court case is over. I know. Yeah. Like it was literally that day. That day, yeah. To me, that's why I was like, no, you can't. You should not come like a fairy Princess. You need to come like I'm here to stand for the people, kind of. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, no, I do. I get it. Felt really like Oh no that doesn't sit right. I just. Felt like it was a bit samey. Yeah, that's it wasn't first that Carla in that sense like that's. Why I love to. Have gone out here I like. It. Yeah, yeah.

14:43 And do something different because I loved her dress last year that changed colour. You know how they that was gorgeous. I loved. That it was this. Year I'm like, oh you've just fucking done the same thing with different material like it's just. Boring, Yeah. It didn't do it for me in that sense. Like, to me, the other, the last year's one was safe in some senses, like for Met Met Gala, Yep. But at the same time totally had the wow, wow, like amazing. Yeah. And so, yeah, it fitted in. It wasn't outlandish great where this year's was, just like, you could have worn that to the Oscars, Yeah, kind of stuff.

15:18 Whereas these other outfits, there's no way you're wearing them anywhere else other than the Met Gala, Yeah. Yeah, that's it. Yeah. You know what? This year made me realise a lot more and it was because of the, you know, Lauren Sanchez Bezos and Jeff Bezos having basically put the whole thing on all paid for the whole thing. Yeah, is just how the whole thing works. So the celebrities are invited by these like tech billionaires who can actually afford the $100,000 a ticket. Yeah, or it's bought the the spots for the celebrities are bought for them by the fashion houses they represent and.

15:50 All of that to wear their dresses, Yeah. And so they're paying $100,000 a plate. Yeah, so I, I read somewhere that it costs $10 million to put on. Wow, 10 million U.S. Dollars, which I actually thought was cheap to put on to put on does. That include the tickets. No, no, no, no. And then they make they this year they made $41 million profit. Surely you could do an event that cost less than 10 million. I mean, I guess in the sense of things like what how much profit you're making on that is, you know, that's a.

16:21 But then also the $10 million was donated, right? Yeah. That didn't cost the costume. Whatever the Yeah, what whoever the beneficiary of the Met gallery, yeah, you know, didn't cost them the the Sanchez. Well, I I heard somewhere that Jeff Bezos bought that for Lauren Sanchez Bezos as like a an anniversary gift. Fuck, tell me you've got money without. I know, right? I've got money. Like I know that's what here's $10 million towards so that you can go to an event. Yeah. In a slightly underwhelming dress.

16:58 I know, I know there was meaning behind what she wore. It was like, yeah, a nod to Madame X and blah, blah, blah, blah. But I yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm like, if you're sponsoring the event, you could go a bit all out. Well, you could have chosen your designer at that, you know what I mean? Like you would have first did, surely? Like, yeah, I mean, they might not want you. Well, politically it would be an affiliation, wouldn't it? But I'm sure there'd be designers who'd be happy to go along that path.

17:24 I'd be a speaking point if nothing else, yeah. That's true. That's true. Yeah. Hey, any publicity is good publicity. Yeah. Yeah, anyway, right. We have got so many shout outs here today. Very. Many it's. Insane. It's crazy, but Oh my God, we bloody love it. Oh, just really quickly, one other thing I just really quickly wanted to mention. Did you see in the news this week that there has been a $1 million reward announced for an arrest in relation to the Marion Barter disappearance? Really. Yeah. Yep, the lady vanishes.

17:56 That's amazing. So for those of you who don't know Marion Barter, she went missing. So there's a there's a long, very long, very long form podcast about this. And her daughter Sally Laden is in it. Yeah, very prominently. She's in in every episode. And she enlisted the help of, I think there was, there were Channel 7 journalists to, to help investigate it. And they ended up uncovering so much information. It ended up in an inquest. And I mean, I think they're pretty sure they know what happened.

18:30 Yes. Oh, they don't know what happened, but they know who did it or who had a hand in it. Yeah. But so go and listen to it because it's, it's a really fascinating story. Very good podcast, very long. So there are there are other podcasts about this that do it in a much shorter, shorter form. But anyway. The long form 1 is so worth. I mean, I know I got to a point where I was listening to it as it was released, being saved and it was I think you and I talked a lot about it when it was coming out and everything and there is just going along that ride is really well worth it like.

18:58 Yeah, I think so too. The UPS and the downs and seeing how they how things unfold. In real time, Sally and her family like the daughter of the woman who went missing like in her because this is years and years and years I mean got. 40 decades, yeah. Stuff like it's, yeah, yeah, it's quite a lengthy time period that you're talking about that she's gone through this. So, yeah, so basically she went overseas and then they never heard from her again. Yeah. And the, in the investigation of this, they found that she changed her name to Flora Bella.

19:24 What was it? Marian Ramackel. And no, it was like Flora Bella Natalia, Marian Ramackel or something like that. Anyway, sorry, don't quote me exactly on that. But then, you know, and that led to like finding out things about the new surname and who that might relate to and why did she do that? And anyway, it's so fascinating. But anyway, they've just announced a $1 million reward for the arrest of anybody involved. The person. The person, Yeah, So. Someone's got to know something more. Oh, definitely, definitely, definitely.

19:55 Anyway, sorry, I just wanted to mention that, right. And the other thing I want to mention is we are releasing this a couple of days after Mother's Day. So a massive, massive happy Mother's Day to all our lovely listeners. We send all our love and strength to those of you who maybe no longer have your mums or you know, women who wanted to be mums, who might not be all of those people. You're all in our thoughts. But to everyone else, happy, Happy Mother's Day. Yes, yes, enjoy the day. Enjoy, we hope you.

20:26 Enjoyed the day? Enjoy your day. Yeah, yeah, everyone does it differently for all sorts of reasons. So we're here with you. That's it. Yeah, that's it. All right, shout outs for today. A long list. It's a long list because we've announced our Patreon competition. We have actually had a huge influx. So thank you to everybody who's recently joined and all of you guys will be now in the draw for our second our second merch pack. So that includes Haley Rooney, Mel Daly, Anna S, Kim O'Loughlin, Tanya Cox and Melissa Napa.

21:03 We really, really appreciate the fact that you guys have come on board. We then have had coffees bought for us as well. So Miss Tan, she has struck again. Miss Tan is just she is amazing. She's she's the one who always says you are my favorite. And I put you up there in terms of, you know, how much I love it in like with Crime Junkie and all these other podcasts. Yeah, that have so much out of the fact that you even think that we're up there. That really made a great. Holy cow. Yeah. And the other thing she said, which I just thought was really gorgeous.

21:37 She said that she acknowledges the fact that we took a massive leap in starting this podcast. And I just don't think that's something that you and I really reflect on. We just kind of do it and it's done, but it was a big leap. Like I think a. Year or so. Yeah, actually you. Know like to. Take the plunge and to really put yourself out there, you know, I mean, sometimes. When I sometimes I. Know when people say things to us, I'm like, oh God, I forget that people listen. Yeah. But anyway, thank you.

22:06 Thanks. Actually, do listen. People actually listen. And then we had another, really lovely, another coffee bought for us by Rose. She's a cleaner and she said when she's cleaning people's house, she's got out the earbud in and listening to us. And she's like, I really don't think the people who I'm cleaning houses for have any idea what I'm listening to. They probably think she's popping on to popping along to some Taylor Swift or something. And it's, you know, murder and death and crime. I love that.

22:33 That's so good. Yeah. So sorry, I've got. You've got more, a little bit more. I'm really sorry. So we also have had some really lovely comments on our socials this week. So Trisha, Nisha Thompson, she has been liking so many of our posts and really engaging with our content online. I've just noticed, like, her name often pops up when I'm looking at different things. Yeah, she does all the clapping, hand emojis and all that sort of stuff. So thank you so much for that support. And then the username TMG she just wrote on one of our things.

23:03 You 2 are the fucking best. Yeah. No, you are. No, you are. Yeah. So thank you. Thank you. Yeah, you're all the fucking best guys. Gotcha. Listening, So thanks. Cool. If you want to come and join us over at the Patreon, you go in the drawer at the at the moment for a merch pack. So all you need to do is jump over to WWW dot patreon.com/two Crime Besties. It's $5 a month. Join us in the patron and get that extra episode a month and also ad free. You also get a mention on our main feed and you might win an absolute piece of shit merch.

23:42 Or any merch. It doesn't have to be the absolute if you're that stay. Curious. Yeah. Bestie. Yeah. Beautiful, too. Yeah. So, I mean, there's lots of things to choose from, and you can tell us what you want in that respect. So you grab a hoodie, a notebook, I think. What else do we say in the Packers? Yeah. So yeah, we'll have a chat with the winners when we draw them as to what they've got their eye on and whatever design they wish to have on those items they can choose. And if you want to check out our merch, you can do so.

24:11 We now have a website so the merch can be viewed at www.twocrimebesties.com/merch. And that'll take you to the Red Bubble website, which is where we host our merch platform. Or you can just check out our new website, whichistwocrimebesties.com. Yeah, sure. Like I know. I feel with a website. I know. Look at us go always growing, always learning something. Emma's done an incredible job with the website. Oh, my goodness. But seriously, you know, you were saying you had some issues with the editing software that last week.

24:47 Yeah. And I've been trying to figure out how to do a website. For God's sake, We're. Learning we're. Learning. We're constantly learning. So yeah, enjoy. Yep, we no, I don't think the people understand that side of it. The background like the the messages we said each other like this. Fucking piece of shit won't let me do this. What technology? What's with this technology? It's not letting us do what we wanna do. We sound like our mum. Fucking hell. Like. Often, like, like, you know, I really should stop hanging shit on there, yeah.

25:15 You know, I'm actually getting to a point. So my in my car, I've got one of those dashcam things and it was flashing at me the other day and I said to Ollie, I'm like, can you just fix it? Like I don't even know what's wrong with it anyway, He did. I don't even know. I know he just. Knew how to fix it, so I am becoming that we're shifting into that next generation. When I do that, when that happens, when the boys do that stuff, I immediately turn to them and just say, just remember, I taught you how to use a.

25:42 Spoon. Yep. OK. And to wipe your. We've been there. All right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is all because I taught you other things. Yeah, that's right. I am taking some credit. I crawled so you could walk. Exactly. Yeah, that's right. All right. Should we get into today's case? Because this banter has gone on for way too. Long God, I'm gonna look at the top. Oh God, every, everyone's gonna be like, all right, get on with the fucking episode already, people. Will be like no. And then there's others that are like, oh.

26:10 Shut up. OK. You're the person who thinks this is cool. Still my favorite comment comment. Yeah, I'm gonna get that on AT Shirt. Yeah, actually that is so good. OK, so we are talking today about the Butcher Baker of Alaska. Yeah. And this is going to be a two-part episode. Yes, because there is so much to it. So there's to this episode we're gonna chat about a lot of the free the lead up to what ended up being this absolutely mass. It's actually unquantified at the moment. The crime spree that he he went on and the killing spree that he went on.

26:47 So yeah, as I said, it is A2 parter. There is so much we just, there's no way we could have fit this into one episode. Anyway, even in the two episodes, I really feel like we still will have to brush over some things, you know? It will either be you. If you want deep dive more of this, please do. Yeah. Because there is so much out there. There is. I mean, so I found researching this that there is so many different things to research. I didn't finish reading a book that I would like to. I want to go back and read that thoroughly because it was kind of like, all right, I'm getting information from there, but I want to look at the breadth of stuff that's out there too.

27:20 So yeah, in the time frame that we had to research for this, there is so much information as well as not no information on certain aspects of this too. That is interesting. I think that warrants a lot of discussion too, and I'm sure we will be bringing that up. Yeah, in multiple situations as we go. Offshore, yeah, but we probably, again, trigger warning. There's stuff in this in terms of sexual assaults and things like that, but also just misogynistic pieces of shit. So we'll get there, Yeah. So look after yourselves, people.

27:53 Yeah, please do. Please, please do. I think to really understand this case and Robert Hansen, who, you know, is referred to as the butcher Baker because of the crimes that he committed and the fact that he his profession was that of a of a Baker, you we really need to start early on. And when we we talk about this a lot, when we're talking about perpetrators of these violent acts, there is an that's right. There is absolutely a pattern of behaviour that starts when they are young. Yeah. And that is 100% the case in in this instance as well, because so Robert Christian Bose Hansen, he was actually born in the 15th of Feb in 1939 in Estherville, IA.

28:43 They moved when so he was the oldest of two children. His mother was American. Her name was Edna Margaret Hanson nee Peterson and he she married a Danish man by the name of Christian Hanson. He was a Baker and he owned his own business. And so Robert has obviously followed followed down that path. The family moved to Richmond, CA in 1942. Now, I believe this was in pursuit of another business opportunity for for Robert's dad. Yeah, it didn't work out. So by 1949, they moved back to Iowa and this time they settled in Pocahontas.

29:26 I would love to live in Pocahontas. Sounds so idyllic until you talk to you about this guy. Well, that's it. And you look at him. Yeah. Yeah. So Robert was thin, very awkward as a child, had really, really bad acne. And he had a stutter that, I mean, if you're thinking back into the like what, the early 40s into the 50s, he was teased relentlessly for that stutter. I think, I mean, in this day and age that there's, you know, a lot of things that people with a stutter can do in terms of speech therapy.

30:05 And that was probably not widely known necessarily back then, but I think people are also. For it eventually. But yeah, that's it. But I think people are much more accepting of things these days. It's not definitely there's no, I don't think that would happen in this day and age or that I. Think society wouldn't allow happen but probably more behind closed doors ish like you know whereas this would have been public taunting. I believe it was. I think like even his teachers used to tease him and and sort of mock him.

30:30 Yeah, because, I mean, in some ways because there was such a lack of understanding of what it was, a stutter. Yeah. There would have been like, people who were like, would just stop doing it. Yeah. Why would you do that? Yeah. There's not an understanding of the fact that he has. No. Control. Over that without actual therapy to to work through how to do that. So yeah, yeah, that would have yeah sucked. And he he did inherit that sort of from his dad to his dad had a stutter as well. So. And as a child his stutter was apparently very severe.

30:57 Yeah, yeah. So his. So his dad, though, was also deeply religious. Yeah, very strict and disciplined. So his childhood was, I didn't really find that his dad was necessarily violent, but very, very hard, fan firm and yeah, very strict of what was and wasn't OK in. The parent house quite humorless as well. So there was no sort of fun in their family. It was it was a very regimented type of household. And yeah, look, in terms of abuse, I think certainly verbal abuse in the household. Yeah, I I didn't sort of see anything in terms of physical abuse.

31:41 No. And that's I sort of, you know, looking back and looking at his childhood, I mean, from previous serial killers we have looked at, yeah. You know, you see some stuff that where you really go off that is fucking God awful. Yeah. Whereas with him, the most of it is around this teasing rejection. Yeah, kind of, yeah, sort of stuff that I mean, I don't want to downplay it in that because that's awful for anyone to go through being bullet is horrific and it's psychological and it's you know, and it and I am certainly of someone who believes that psychological stuff can be just as equally as painful as physical abuse, but it just didn't, I don't know, I didn't get the level of abuse that I have heard other serial.

32:24 Killers, I agree. I'm carefully trying to say that without being disrespectful to the people. No, I know. I know what you mean. I see what you're getting at. I I think, I think you're right. I think with Robert it was very psychological like his, the damage to him was very psychological because even his dad. So Robert was naturally left-handed and his dad basically forced him. I mean, as was the time that was. Pretty much every second time. That's right. You know, if you're left-handed, that's what they did.

32:54 They basically believe that no one should be left-handed handed. It's and that is only up until more recently. I would probably say it kids during the 80s even. Oh yeah, potentially early 90s, yeah, was the same. I think you're absolutely right. I, I, I know people who've had that happen. But then so. OK. But I think if you're looking that at that from an individual perspective, so Roberts had, he's been teased for his stutter. He's been teased for his acne. He's been, yeah, told that he can't be left-handed.

33:24 And that's wrong. Like he probably all those things together, like you can imagine the psychological impact all of that would have. Absolutely. And he wanted to please his dad. Yeah. And that was, I think it was seemingly impossible. Yeah. Yeah, Yeah. Exactly. That led to then obviously and then his more later teen years where, you know, hormones kick in and he starts looking for girls. And I mean, so the poor guy's got this severe acne that's, you know, like scarred him as well in this stage. So he's, you know, his appearance.

33:52 He's not, you know, you know, overly appealing, I guess you know that he's that in that sense as well. And then he's got the starter and that and. He's also little like he didn't really develop like he was. He was quite scrawny, Yeah. He wasn't really into sports aside from nuttery. I think that kind of, yeah, was one of his. And he liked hunting as well, but not into, like, I guess the more popular sports that maybe girls might be more attracted to. Yeah. But he he obviously, he would approach girls and he would get rejected.

34:25 So this obviously played into his psychological abuse, you know, in mind trauma of his trauma. But I have to say I just fucking can't with it. I mean there's fragile men just need to stop with this shit of like that a girl's allowed to say no, 100% anyone is allowed, anyone is allowed to say no, and that that shouldn't be something that you then take to this extreme at all. No, but see, this is like another thing though, which I think plays into, you know, a potent. Well, definitely. He's got a personality disorder.

35:01 Yeah. And, and we know, we know that it's, it's been diagnosed and we'll get to that in a minute. But he, you know, he in terms of the way that he perceives that is because he thinks he's entitled in a way he's entitled the right word. I think it is. I think it is. I think that that's he's entitled to have a a woman love him and want him and a girl even like this is we're talking when he was a teenager. But yeah, they're allowed to not want to go out with him. And the fact that he upon rejection, he would get seethingly angry.

35:40 Well, there was one story where he saw a girl that he locked, so he followed her home and knocked on her door. And when she answered the door and he asked her out and she said, well, no, I've got a boyfriend. Well, she's not even saying no, I don't like you, you're this or you're that. No, I have a boyfriend. He went home, got a gun and returned to a house. Like threatening her. Is that going to make? Is that going to make her want to go out with you, mate? Seriously. I happened to stumble across a social media feed of this of a post this week that I felt like just summed this up really badly.

36:18 This This is not just a serial killer trait. You know, like. Unfortunately not. This is unfortunately fragile men in this society till to this day that they need to fucking get over. It was a man had posted saying guys, tell me your worst reaction when it from asking a girl out when she said no, right, and all these men were coming into the the the into the the comments saying right, She laughed at me. She slammed the door in my face. She you know, like I'm sorry, really not nice. Not I'm not saying, you know, rejections never nice.

36:54 It's never nice. It's not that bad, right. And then all these women started coming into the comments of like, and they were responding with what men had done to them. That was the worst thing that happened to them when they had said no. And the level of I'm sorry, that wasn't laughing at them. I mean, there was some body horrendous stories these. Women were writing in there, I bet. And I mean, from a personal stance, I can say I was stalked, you know, at one stage, I'm sure you've got stories that you've got can tell where you've, you know, said no to someone and they've reacted incredibly poorly.

37:28 Every girl can get has those stories that it's bullshit. The the the react, the male reaction to rejection and the female reaction of rejecting are very different. Very. Do you think that as a society that's changing because you don't? No.

37:50 I hope that women of our generation who have young boys are using this time and this generation to shift things in that perspective. And I know, like, you know, in terms of respectful relationships and consent and all of those things, like, it's OK, you know, that the boys, young boys being taught that it's OK for a woman to say no, just as it's OK for you to say no if that's not something that you're comfortable with. Yeah. And that doesn't mean anything necessarily. Yeah. You move on. Yeah. And yeah, yeah, it's hard.

38:27 It's hard to take that. No, it's hard. It's hard. For anyone, it's hard for a woman to take a no you. Don't have to go away and be like, you know, like, oh, that's OK, that's fine. Yeah, because that wouldn't be human. That's not it's it's an emotional thing, but yeah, but the fact they don't have the emotional regularity yeah. To be able to go OK, that sucked. I've my egos bruised slightly. I'm going to take a moment. Yeah. And then OK after. A few weeks, pick yourself back up. Back in there, I'm going to try again, like, you know, and do it less creepy or something, I don't know.

38:53 Yeah. Yeah, no, I fully agree. Yeah, but it just summed it up for me with this guy that the fragile ego of like how rejection has created him to be who he became is fucked up. And that's something that society, as a society, we need to really work on. Yeah, in general. Yeah. So he, Robert ended up joining at the end of high school, ended up joining the Army Reserves and he lasted like 6 months or something. I don't really know what happened there. I couldn't the. Initial training and things really.

39:29 That was about it though. Yeah, but didn't. No. Then go on. Was there a reason for that? I I'm not 100% sure, but obviously there's a story of like what happened with his leave and things. Yeah, I don't know whether that was all part of. It OK. That that seemed to spin things another way for him in general in life. Right? OK, yeah. Or maybe he didn't intend to. Maybe that was just something they all did a little bit, you know, like, oh, that's what you do when you finish. School you do your basic training.

39:53 And and then go do what you're gonna do. Well, so after that, though, he ended up working as a drill Sergeant at the police Academy, which, yeah, I don't really see how that translates, but that's, that's how that's what he did. Yeah. With the Pocahontas Police Agency. Yeah. And. He was, well, he was there that he began a relationship with a much younger woman. Yeah, they actually married and it was a very, very short lived marriage again. I don't really. I mean, I know why they split up in the end.

40:25 Yeah, but I don't really know what their relationship was like in that short amount of time. They were married for less than a year. It was six months, I think. Yeah, yeah. They were married for approximately 6 months. They never had children. I think she dodged a bullet. I think she absolutely dodged a bullet. I bet you she looks back now and goes, oh thank God that panned out the way it did. At the time, I mean, divorcing would have been so, so scandalous, particularly like, I mean, well, I know definitely Robert's family were very religious.

40:52 I dare say then her family were quite possibly the same. That's how they mingle in their circles. Like that's how they meet most of the time These, these, these young people at this time. So it would have been huge. So I dare say they had to be in a like, I mean, well, there was a very strong reason as to why they split split, but obviously that was enough for her family to support her. I guess through that hopefully and work through it. She's we don't know her name. No, it's not public and good, good.

41:16 We need to know. Me too, I hope she's had a wonderful life after this. So the reason that their marriage broke up was because Robert actually set fire to the local school district's bus sheds and buses contained within and caused an obscene amount of damage in in that act. And when he was, you know, arrested and interviewed about it, they were asking him like, why have you done this? Like, what is what's this all about? You know, what was the motivation behind it? And he basically said it was to, like, pay back for all of the rejection he received at schools.

41:53 Revenge. It was revenge. Yeah. Isn't that horrific? It's just so fucked up, that's what. I mean, I'm saying that, you know, these reactions to these things just so disproportionate. Yeah, yeah. How long was he imprisoned for then? So that for that one or I don't think he actually even. Oh, he's sorry. He served 20 months of a three-year sentence at the Animosa State Penitentiary. But even with that, I do believe there was a lot of like Dave, like Dave visit. He would go and work and things like that.

42:23 He was necessarily in prison the whole time. I feel like I remember reading somewhere that he would do like, what do you call it? Like work a work schedule of some sort, like outside of the prison? Yeah, OK. Like day release. Day release stuff, because that's right, because there was talk of him going and that's right. We'll go back to slightly that when he was in the Army and they went on this, he had this leave him and his mate went to New York and so this was his first exposure. This other guy was obviously a little bit more worldly, I'm guessing.

42:50 And when they got to New York, he introduced him to like a brothel and and prostitute prostitutes. So they they did utilize their services and Robert rather liked that so. Because he could get what he wanted when he wanted it. Yeah. So when he when this occurred, when he was in, in prison and he was doing like these work day release things, he would, it got to a point where like prison guards or whatever would drive him to work and back again. But it got to a point where further into his sentence where he would drive himself.

43:19 And so he liked that because what he would do is he'd leave work early enough to better go to the, the Main Street sort of thing about to watch the prostitutes on the street before then going back and returning to the prison. So for the evening. So yeah, there was a little bit of weird shit going on. Just even back then, a lot of weird shit. Yeah, while he was in prison at that time, a psychiatrist did do a profile on him and diagnosed him with infantile personality. He apparently he was obsessed with revenge and then so he also had low impulse control, a compulsive need for control, overwhelming insecurity, insecurity, hostility towards women.

44:04 They said that rejection was absolutely the catalyst for this explosion, that he, this fire that he said there was. They said that there was a sexual component to this. Yeah, already which I found. Interesting. Very interesting. But they said there were signs that his sexual urges were becoming intertwined with his need for dominance and punishment, and that arson was a release for that. Yeah. Because he wasn't getting it elsewhere. Down with psychologists. Whoever saw him at that point, I feel like obviously there was he got out of him or she got out of him.

44:41 A lot. Yep, in their sessions. Yep. And then interesting. We also need to acknowledge the fact that arson is one element of the McDonald triad, isn't it? So I mean, if we're looking at building this serial killer profile tick and we've got the trauma in the past. In the past potentially there's got to be a head injury somewhere. Yep, I mean quite, quite possibly. And it could have been bullied and beaten at some point, you don't know, like it could have been a hit of a head somewhere like that that, you know, also involved.

45:07 So we don't know of anything specific, but you dare say that would have been in the. There was an excerpt from the psychiatric report that's been released fairly recently, actually, and it says he is a person who has a great deal of difficulty in expressing his feelings. When these feelings build up, he has to have some kind of release. So at this point, all that he's really committed is arson. OK. So just keep that in mind. Yeah. Because I, I guess the other thing that that prison taught him and is that that he could put on a mask and be whatever person they needed him to be.

45:46 Like. He was quite clever in that respect. And he saw what he needed to do. I mean, in terms of being released early and that kind of thing. That was, I think, manipulation on his side. Yeah. Because he's in prison. He started then to develop this goody, goody persona. He did everything he was meant to do. Yeah. I mean, aside from obviously he wasn't being watched when he was going to the brothels, but any time he was being what? What? Not going to the brothels, but driving past them. Yeah. Any time he was being watched, observed, he had this.

46:16 Absolutely. You know, I'm a, I'm actually a good guy. I'm just, you know, I just want to get out there and start, you know, my life and blah, blah, blah, blah. Yeah. So he really started to put this mask on. Yeah, definitely. Around this time, the there was a note in one of his files that he was a model prisoner and that he was really quiet. He worked in the prison bakery because that was something that he wanted to follow in, you know, his dad's footsteps. He'd worked in his dad's bakery as a young child.

46:46 So he he certainly had those skills. He didn't cause any trouble. And yeah, he was a good boy. It was something else. Someone's one of the prison guards said he was a good boy. Vomit. Anyway, OK, so I guess. The other thing we should probably mention too is that he, you've touched on it before about he did enjoy hunting at this point. So even at this, at this stage in his life, I think his dad even got him into it. Yeah. So in terms of the hunting and things, they, they, they would go out and shoot deer and things like that.

47:16 So he had quite a an array of weapons that he had at home, guns and things like that already. And he was a good young man from a young age, wasn't he? Yeah, yeah, and fishing too, which, you know. Good one. Just boring. Sorry. I can fishing shooting. Not not for me. Thank you. No, I just want to really quickly have a chat at here about this, what I think is like a failed intervention point. Totally. And what would have changed had so like, because I, I looked at the psychological report, you can't read the whole thing, but there's, there's certainly a fair, fair few excerpts that you can find online.

47:55 Yeah. And I'm just so intrigued by looking at what we can even see and going, why the fuck did they not insist that he have psychological support beyond this? Because like, even in that report, it basically says he ticks one or we now know two. Really. Yeah, pillars of the McDonald triad like. When was the McDonald triad established? Like would they, that psychologist have been aware of that at that time? That's actually a really good point. Let me have a. Look, yeah. Because, because I just think, Oh my God, you've, you've pinpointed so much here, yes, in this psychological analysis of this man, but then there's been no intervention.

48:34 Like you haven't actually then tried to. I mean, look, I think in a lot of circumstances with certain psychopaths, there's no rehabilitating. No. But who's, why didn't they even try? Why didn't they even start that process? Is it because he put on this facade that he was so perfect and this, you know, and then he fooled them into thinking, Oh yeah, this was the one off. And the parole board's looked at him and gone, oh, he's a model prisoner. He's learnt from, he's learnt from his mistake. And I can at this point, I can sort of, yeah, OK.

48:59 It's the next one that I think is an even bigger. Yeah, point of entry where there should have been more, definitely should have been more. Yeah. Ramifications for his actions. Yeah. But I mean, because clearly this first psychologist, as I said, it was good at their job. Like, I mean, there's plenty of other, you know, serial killers that we've had assessed by psychologists that you look at reports and going fucking kidding me. You've got that wrong. Like, you know, and you've missed that there were things that were missed.

49:24 Whereas I feel like that psychologist like got his number. Like, you know as much as you possibly. Could at that stage. 100% So the McDonald triad was first proposed by psychiatrist JM McDonald in his 1963 article. And he went to prison in 60, didn't he? Yeah, 19. 60, yeah. Yeah. OK. So you probably, it's probably, yeah, just being established kind of out in there. Yeah, in the thought process in the psychology world. Interesting. Interesting timing then maybe, yeah, like not necessarily knowing what you're looking.

49:53 For not knowing that that's what he turned out to be at that stage, yeah. I see it. OK. Yeah. So the next sort of step in all of this, he's come out of prison. Yeah. And he met and married a local woman by the name of. Oh my God, Darla. Darla Yeah. I'm like I know her name but I had to read it. I have to say I'm just on that Darla, because if you watched the movie Frozen Ground, yes, yeah. So I because I loved in that that, you know, the woman who plays Darla in that is that I love her in the pit.

50:24 Yes, she's so. Gross. Personalities and those yeah. In. That show, I mean. Who from like the you know, the head nurse. Like, yeah, yeah. Who? What's her name? Catherine. Oh my God, Catherine. Yeah. She's amazing. So good. Nicolas Cage is in that as well. And. Oh, and John. John. Cusack. Plays Robert Hanson's character in it and like it's not a great movie but. It's actually, it's actually not great. It's not, no, I didn't. I'm not a big fan, but I watched it years and years ago and I just. I've watched it very much in the background at one stage this week when I was researching because I had already seen it, but.

50:57 It's Catherine Lanessa. Yeah, and. Then when she came on the screen, I went yes, Oh my God, she's. She's so good. I love her. Yeah, yeah, I thought, I gotta. Say to Emma, I know. Anyway, sorry. So, yeah, he met in 1960. So as he was literally getting out of jail, yeah, he. So Wally was in prison. His first marriage was annulled so because. Oh, so that's actually now you've said that I didn't, They didn't divorce. That's maybe how she got around that a bit more that it was annulled. Probably because he was in prison and that does break the sanctity, yeah.

51:30 OK, yes, I think yeah, dodged a bullet. Yep. 01 half dodged a bullet. Yeah. Yeah, Sorry. In 1963, not long after getting out of prison, he met Dalla Heinrichson. Yeah, She was a OR. She was in the process, I think at the time she was studying to become a teacher, and she ended up being a teacher of children with disabilities. So that attracts a very certain type of very caring and compassionate person. Yes. And I believe she was. I believe she was exactly that. Oh, to this day, she's been, I know a particular writer who has who interviewed, not interviewed her, but spent time with her.

52:02 And he said to this day that she is an incredibly intelligent woman, but just. I'm very unassuming. Yeah. He called it complex was a word that I used, that he used. And I thought, well, that's interesting. That's. Interesting. Yeah. Well, I find decision she's made interesting and we will get to that probably more next week. Yeah. But yeah, OK, let's keep going with that. So they married in 1963 and went on to have two children, a boy, a girl. Yeah, a boy and a girl. They moved to Alaska in 1967.

52:33 He convinced Darla because she was moving away from her whole family, her support network. She'd grown up in the area. He convinced her to move there for a fresh start. Now, why would he need a fresh start, Might you wonder? Very interesting. And he wanted to move somewhere where he could pursue his love of hunting and escape his reputation in Iowa. Because of course, I mean, I think in a small city or a small town like Pocahontas, your reputation would procedure if you've done the things that you've done, you've been in prison, you that would be hard to escape even if you genuinely rehabilitate it.

53:08 I think that would be a really tough. Certainly people going, we're not going to the back that bakery, we'll go to the other bakery. Like kind of situation that if that's what he was going to do, that it's like, yeah, you'd choose a different bakery if you knew that was the guy who burned down the the bus depot. Yes, exactly. Yeah, exactly. So they moved into or just outside of the main city of Anchorage in Alaska. Yeah. And he established a business in that in that area and it actually became fairly successful fairly quickly.

53:37 They the. Reason he was able to do that though was a payout though. He got a what now? God now I've lost that where that was from. What did he get that payout from for? It was a insurance claim that turned out to be fraudulent. OK, I don't. I'm not sure. No, can't remember. I can't remember reading it now. It was like $50,000, OK, that he was he received for some sort of insurance thing. Yeah. And sorry, that's how he set up his bakery and that he used that money to do that. OK. I assumed they must have sold assets.

54:10 Yeah, no, that was it was definitely this. Yeah, I know that's that, definitely. But now I just cannot put together in my brain. That's right. We'll be able to figure, we'll be able to figure it out as we go along. Oh, good. So this is one thing that I like. And everywhere you read or listen to anything about this case, it just, it just makes me chuckle. The police officers would always go to his bakery for, for coffee and doughnuts every day. Like, how stereotypical. Yeah, of course they did. But he he really supported the police and he would often give them free, free coffee and doughnuts for for coming in.

54:45 He also did a lot of community outreach during this time. So not only he was a coach for one of his kids, I think it was Little League baseball teams. He would give, you know, at the end of the day, there's obviously leftover bread or leftover stuff in a bakery. He would donate all of that to the local homeless shelters. Yeah. Now the other thing that we need to note is that Anchorage at this time was undergoing a massive, massive boom. So they were building a pipeline, which was for oil that was coming from northern Alaska.

55:17 Yeah. Down through. And So what it meant was that the town of Anchorage went from a population of about 60,000 to a population of 200,000 in just over 2 years. It's huge, massive, massive, massive boom. And so you can imagine along with that came a lot of infrastructure and came a lot of need for certain itinerant workers. Yeah, in the form of sex workers and. Well, to meet and we should because I guess we should mention that sex workers exist because people pay for that and there are certain men who like that.

55:52 Yeah. So I was just find it amusing that sex workers get judged. Oh, they do. When at the end of the day, you shouldn't be judging them for their work. No, he's. I mean, Robert Hansen's a Baker because people eat bakery goods like, you know, like. Yeah. And the at least like them. Yep. So you're a teacher because people need kids, need teaching? Yes, 100%. So there were people that were moving into that town who are particular kinds of people who do particular jobs. You know, they, they needed a lot of men working in that area.

56:26 So therefore sex workers also came because they knew they'd make money. They also opened a lot of bars and a lot of, you know, establishments like that. So yeah, you're right. The the demand was there and and people rose to that need. Yeah, very much so. Very much so. The girls were coming to the area, were making damn good money. There was a good for them to come there because there was money to be made. Yep, Yep. Yep, good on them, good on them. No judgment here. So no. So anyway, so we're looking now, Robert's established this, you know, fairly successful business.

57:03 By this time Dolla had finished her studies and she was working as a teacher, I believe to start with. I mean, with any new business, it takes a while to financially get on top of things. So for a very, for a fairly, for quite a few years there, Dolla was actually the main income earner in the house and so she was working full time and they had their two young children. I mean, it's a very typical family set up, isn't it? Yeah, now it was. Yeah. So the the tipping point though, and this is when it was looked back on forensically, you know, after everything kind of came about, even once the bakery started earning money, it wasn't being funnelled back into the household.

57:48 Now just keep that in mind because there was Robert had access to money that Dollar didn't even really know existed. Yeah, yeah. So I guess we're looking now at, oh, sorry. Also during this time, Robert decided to learn to pilot a light aircraft. Well, he said, learned, but well never got a license. No. Was he mostly self-taught? I believe so. I. Think so too. I think he did have a friend who I think he helps him out. Yeah, I think he did have a friend who helped him out who who was a licensed pilot.

58:26 Having said just mentioned friend, yeah, I mean, he was a very unusual man in lots of ways. And very, I mean, shy is a word that was used about him in your, in his name, around his neighbors, like kind of the way they would describe him. I'm talking that he was sort of shy and quiet sort of man. Yeah. And so he didn't have all that many friends. And Darla was very keen for him to have friends. She would literally like set up play dates for him to like meet people. I think she seems like she was someone who was a little bit a little bit more outgoing, a little bit more confident in herself.

58:57 I mean, as a teacher, she speaks in front of, you know, groups of kids and things that and would get to know local families through that as well with having being a teacher. So she would often approach people and sort of say like, oh, my husband likes hunting and your husband likes hunting and do you think they'd maybe like to go and do that together? And many of these men would say, Oh yeah, sure, I'll go out with him one day and they'd go hunting and stuff, but they wouldn't want to go again. Like they would find him quite.

59:23 Unusual. I'm pretty sure that he only had two actual friends. And when I say friends, I mean people he would hang out with. Yeah. Semi regularly there were people that he would and even then when we say friends, yeah, they all sort of found him a bit odd, but we'll come back to them. We will come back to them. So yeah. So he's learnt how to pilot a plane and he ended up purchasing a Oh my God I. Told I wrote it down. I told Peter that I would write it down so that I think. It's in my notes for next.

59:51 Week I actually think it might be in my notes for next week so stay tuned for next week and we'll tell you oh I've got it here Piper something it is it's a piper Pennsylvania 18 super cub you're welcome producer Pete there you go I wrote that down just for you it means literally nothing to me I had to look up a photo of it so I got a picture in my mind of what it actually like it's. Very small, yeah. Two seats, not a lot of luggage room. Yeah. But like apparently in Alaska, because it's such a huge state and it's also sparsely populated.

1:00:21 Yeah, it's sparsely populated, but also like there is like a rough terrain, all these sorts of things that like kind of owning a plane is almost like owning a car sort of situation. It is a bit more like, I mean, to us, you know, owning your own plane seems like, oh gosh, that's, you know, outlandish. Yeah. You know, let alone, you know, like just, you know, high one like as Peter would to go fly. I mean it's not a cheap thing to no so let alone you're owning your own plane. That's pretty cool, but it's fairly standard ish in Alaska.

1:00:47 Also because a lot of their terrain is inaccessible by vehicles. So if you're a hunter, it's not uncommon to have a plane so that you can get into the wilderness to hunt your deer. And and then people would build little cabins out there along, you know, man made airstrips and grassy knolls that they would land their their aircraft on. So yeah, as you said, you're absolutely right. It wasn't something that was highly unusual. No. In fact, I saw a photo of the airstrip where he kept his plane, where he stored his plane.

1:01:15 There was so many planes. It was like a car park. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, yeah, that just gives you a bit of an idea. Yeah. It wasn't unusual, but it was something that that he did. It's. Expensive to do, like, you know, to have to maintain like it's, you know, time. Yeah, all that. But yeah, you know, I'm assuming you have to pay fees to have it, you know, kept at the the airport like that. I would imagine so, yeah, Yeah, yeah. All right. So I think we're really starting now to build the identity of like this dueling personality, dueling two faces kind of a person.

1:01:45 So we've got Bob the Baker, the family man. He was an award-winning hunter. He'd won some. Prestigious. Well. Well. That's actually a really good point. We will also talk about that a little bit more next week. So a prestigious hunter? Well, at this stage, this is what we believe. OK, Sonar is putting out, they will say. Yeah, yeah. And he was also, conversely, starting to become a predator in this in this neighborhood. Yeah. So he would frequent strip clubs in the area. And now we've spoken about these sex workers, you know, briefly, but a lot of them would come, some of them would come for a short time to earn a bit of extra money and then maybe go back to their lives, you know, wherever else in the States they they lived.

1:02:35 And so of course, they're probably there's not great record of the type of, you know, employment records or anything like that of the women who were working in these clubs. And so it's quite it's. Transient Lifestyle. Very much so. But it's also like I I really feel like no one really cared for these girls at all. And I think that's probably true of sex workers the world around, you know, it's horrible. Yeah, it's absolutely awful, but. It's the other person who's in that movie. Sorry, it's $0.50.

1:03:07 Who plays the pimp? Oh I fucking love $0.50. I love it, but Oh my God if you don't follow $0.50 on the socials there is something wrong with you. He is amazing, go and follow him my. Favorite things he ever did was bought buy out jar rules. I know there's 4 rows of his conscience to piss him off, so that was. I went in the front rows. He's so good. I just, I just fucking love him. I love him. Anyway, so he'd so during this time when he first started going to these strip clubs, there were, there were several complaints about him from the sex workers to the police, which would have been a really big barrier to entry.

1:03:46 So what that makes me think is that his behaviour was so concerning to them that they were willing to put themselves out there and go to the police where they knew they would face judgment. They knew they would face, you know, well, God only knows what or probably be rejected, to be honest, or just not be believed. And they still did it anyway. And but the the I guess the hard thing was these first complaints were that he was his behaviours were strange and made them feel really uncomfortable, but it wasn't.

1:04:15 But anything gut instincts were. Telling them something you know, like but. Like to me, the fact that their gut instinct propelled them enough to go to the police says a lot. We need to believe women when they speak about these things, yes. What it turned out was that his behaviour towards sex workers was becoming increasingly horrific. And yeah, it it was just, yeah, absolutely horrible. So basically we're talking now in the early ish, 17197171. OK, so sex workers started to disappear. A lot of the times if they weren't reported, they weren't investigated.

1:05:03 If they sorry if they were reported, went wholly uninvestigated. Because there's an assumption of like, oh, they could have just gone, you know, like moved on. Like that's what the response. Would be like, I, I read a story or it was a, an, a news article that was actually made more recently. So it was obviously reflecting on, you know, times of the past. Yeah. But these women would have had friends within. Oh, they did. Yeah. These, you know, of course. Yeah, they're Co workers. They would have been friends, yeah.

1:05:32 And so they would have known if they had, you know, if they had have just gone home or gone. Reported missing because, like, you know, I saw her last night. She said she was going, you know, to go meet this person. You know, that's all she was doing. She was then meant to be at work today. Yeah. And didn't rock up. Yeah, that's the stories that were going to the police where and the police's reaction was that to that was, oh, she might have just, you know, decided to go back home where she's from you.

1:05:54 Know, but they didn't then follow that up they didn't investigate that and go Oh well, maybe they no, maybe let's ring her home and yeah, like prepare. In with people that might know her at home or where she. Well, they well, they would I mean, I guess in that sense they would kind of be like, well, we don't know any information about this person. Yeah, like, and a lot of the time even friends, they didn't divulge where they came from a lot of the time, I guess because a lot of them came from pretty shit homes.

1:06:19 I mean, it's why they were seeking out other places, you know, find themselves. In that point. So I guess a lot of these young girls would rock up and kind of go, well, I'm not telling you. I don't, I won't tell them. They change their names. They, you know, a lot of the times. They wouldn't use the other names. Yeah. So yeah, it would become difficult to investigate, not impossible and could be done if they really wanted to. Yeah, but it just got put into the too hard. Basket by the police, yeah.

1:06:42 Too much work for someone they didn't value. Yep, that's. Let's just say it as it. Is I think you're absolutely right. And it's horrific and it's horrible, Yeah. So I think we'll talk about December 19, 1971. Yeah, Yep. So, well, first of all, 1971, Hanson was arrested twice that year. Yep, the first time he was arrested for abducting and attempting to rape a housewife. That's a horrible story. Oh my God. Then he raped a sex worker. Yeah, Oh my God. I'm sorry, I was repulsed in like in an interview with a police officer, a police officer who was like, Wolf, how do you rape a sex worker?

1:07:25 That's not even possible. Oh my God. What? What the fuck? Everyone has the right to say no. Yep.

1:07:36 I just, I know it's the times, but I still can't. It just really infuriates me. I. Hope it's just the times and I would hope that in this day and age that wouldn't be definitely would I be a thing. God, do you want to talk a little bit about the the housewife? I haven't got a whole lot on her background, but she was basically because I've got it down that. Was she a secretary or a housewife? Because every time I read something different. OK, I've only written down housewife, right? There's a number of spaces where, yeah, she was actually said that she worked as a secretary somewhere as well.

1:08:08 So, OK, I don't know. Yeah, both could be true. Both could be true, yes, but yeah, she was a blonde haired, you know, kind of attractive young woman. Yeah. And so she was Yeah, He. I think he positioned her and she said no, and this is where he said no. I'm gonna. Take you and do what I want. She yeah. So he did. He did abduct her and rape her and which was just absolutely horrific. He attempted to rape. He didn't, actually. Got away. That's right. She fought. Fucking hard. Good on her. And amazing, so great on her that she then went straight to the police and, and reported it.

1:08:49 I'm so glad that she had the guts to do that because I'm sure that again, these men and these jobs at these police force, this police force was, we're not very open to hearing these sorts of things from women. So she wouldn't report it. But they did take her very seriously. Very seriously. Because she was what? And because she was. Beautiful. And she was married legitimate, like legitimate in a legitimate relationship. And she had children like, yeah, yeah. It compared to then when when a sex worker comes in to explain that she was raped by this person, who she I can identify him.

1:09:23 She they know exactly who this person is. So they do arrest him for both of these and then he. Basically happened within days of each other. Within days, it was very, very close to each other. Yeah, I dare say. Well, my take on this psychologically is that he didn't get to rape the first woman. Yeah. He then was like, oh, I need to get this urge out. Yeah. And then he's taken the sex worker and. I think you're right, yeah. But so then, yeah, so obviously the police have then, like arrested him for both these and, you know, looked at him at this and then they've done a plea deal with him where he will cop to some lower lesser charges for them only.

1:10:01 Agreed to accept or the in the plea deal, yeah, he had to plead guilty to the abduction. And the Trump did rape. Yeah. No, I don't even think. Take the attempted rape or not. It pleaded no contest to assault with a deadly weapon for the abduction and attempt. Oh, and attempted breakup and the rape charge was dropped. Yeah, but he, he. Yeah, but he in all that anything that happened to the sex worker was completely dropped. They just wouldn't bother with that one at all, which is just it says a lot about where they're at.

1:10:35 And I really think this is a key entry point where he is not held accountable for his actions. But what it also did was teach him that if you take the nice housewife right, you get punished for that. Yep, if you do these same actions to a sex worker, that's fine. Yep, and you'll the the cops will let you off on that. Yep. And and he's, he's definitely taken that from him. So he was sentenced to five years in prison for that. He only served six months and then had to serve the remainder at a like at a halfway house and work release program.

1:11:17 Yep. Now what did he do while he was in this halfway house? Yeah. Work release program. Ah well. Stalked. But he what? Women. Women on the streets, Yeah. And indulged in what he wanted to indulge in. Yep. Now at this time he remained married. Is this? His wife, he did, yeah, Absolutely. Yeah. Is this when no 2A further assessment was done on him and it was recommended that, well, he was diagnosed with bipolar disorder? Yeah. And it was recommended that it be court ordered that he take the medication for that.

1:11:54 But it never ended up happening. Happened like as in it was recommended but not accepted by the court. Correct. So I mean, again, another entry point of do I do I think he was bipolar? Oh no, no, no. I don't know. Do I think this medication could have helped? Possibly. So that actually happened five years later, right? So in 1976, that was when he attempted to steal the chainsaw. OK, right. Yes. And he was convicted of larceny, sentenced to five years in prison again. Yeah. And the mandatory psychiatric.

1:12:25 Psychiatric treatment for manic depression, which we now call bipolar disorder. Yeah. He ended up getting off on time served because there was a period of time, I think it was like literally two months or three months. It was nothing. Yeah. While they while he was awaiting this trial for all of all of the paperwork to come through and they just let him go. Yeah. And you're right. They didn't then follow up on his court mandated medication. Medication adherence. Yeah. So I mean again, another failed intervention.

1:12:56 Point yeah. Oh, there's so many points where I think, well, the courts have let down the women in this. Yeah, there were points where there was, there could have been a greater level of intervention for him, for his psychological issues. Yeah, absolutely. Which? I don't know. I just don't know. I mean, I know these people. It just said you can't treat necessarily. Not all kinds of psychopathy, no, But. At least you could have got him off the streets. You could have him, you know, more closely watched all these sorts of things could have been in place.

1:13:35 Yep. To ensure safety. Yep. Because I mean, I mean, it shouldn't go and said his children said that he was a loving father and he was a good father. They never had a childhood where he was an abusive person or anything. No. So he had elements of him that were whether, as you say, it's a mask. I'm not saying that that's not who he truly was. No, but he was able to do that. So I mean, if he'd lived that part of his life and not been allowed access to another part of his life, maybe he could have been.

1:14:04 At least those people would have been safe. Yeah, 100%. Yeah. Yeah, I think you're right. It's just we have spoken about this in so many episodes as well. It's all of these failed intervention points. Yeah. Why authorities didn't intervene or didn't follow through on what they should have and what that outcome would have been, we don't, we don't know. No, I can pretty safely say that had even just medication adherence for him I think would have made would have made a big difference. It could have subdued some of those, you know, impulse control sort of things.

1:14:36 Percent. Yeah, just. I mean, we don't. The possibility. It's a possibility we don't. No, but I'm sure it wouldn't have done nothing. If nothing else, it would have meant that eyes were on him constantly. Yeah, okay. And they were not. And they were not actually, you know, what the blinkers were on like because they were seeing some things but not wanting to. That there's that and there's also like, you know, something had happened. They'd be like. But that's Bob. That's Bob the Baker. Yeah, You know, he's a bit weird.

1:15:04 I mean, we know he's a bit weird, but. But he's, you know, he's one of the boys. He's, you know, he's. I don't know that he was one of the. Boys, no he wasn't, but well, but they treated him like. That yeah, because they gave. Because he gave them free coffee and Donuts. No, just because he was a man, I reckon. You reckon? I totally do. When we get down to it, and we'll get to it next week. There are parts of this where I go that's so fucked up that is just men. Protecting, Oh, men behaving badly, It is.

1:15:25 Yeah, Yeah. Men protecting men. Yeah. No, I see what you're saying. All right, Do we want to maybe have a quick chat about where we're going to leave this and pick up again next week? Well. I guess we can sort of just soft entry here, maybe to a police officer who was good at this. Yep. So as we've said mentioned before, there were women going missing and a particular police officer by the name of Maxwell Farrell, who was one of only two females on the police force in Anchorage and badass, shall I say.

1:16:06 She's been go girl like she's she's great. She's great. I think she's fantastic. Yeah. Now, she said her being on the police force was not welcomed. Literally she they did not have a change room they could use at the at the the station. There was nothing expectations that. She'd be the one to make the coffees and go out and get the lunches and yeah, treated. Very poorly by the the men's society that the police force was, but she did not give a shit. She was in there to do the job. Was a fucking bad she was.

1:16:38 Bloody good at her job, too. Yeah. So she saw that this was happening and was investigating various like she would be one of the people that was being that was investigating these missing people. And she already had flagged with her police, with the Anchorage police that the possibility of do we have a serial killer? She was already putting a few things together. So as early as sort of, you know, set like 70s sort of stuff, she was. She. Was flagging that so we should really just start with her.

1:17:09 Just kind of well before anyone else knows anything that has already been spoken about by a female, but no one has listened. And no one respected her opinion no or her expertise in her role. And it turned out she was the only one who saw what was actually happening. The clincher for her in this in was that a body did turn up, the first body that was found, which we can kind of get into, I guess at this point. Yep, that she investigated, who she was sort of leading investigating in this. This body that had turned up.

1:17:39 This body would then become known as a clute, a cluten and a cluten Annie. Yeah. And the reason for that is that it was the body was found near a glutener in a very remote area and has never to this day been identified. But the way that when she investigated this, this body that had turned up and and the fact that they were unable to identify her, she didn't she didn't link to any missing persons that they had on file. And there was reasons to believe that she was possibly a sex worker that. Do you know why?

1:18:12 What? Was it no What made them think she was a sex worker? They found red boots buried. Yeah, red CFMB's. Kind of style and I like nice. So that just means you're a tick. Like tick sex worker. Sex worker bang. Yeah, I love it. Anyone can wear them. Yeah. But yeah. Yeah. So they were led to believe that she was possibly a sex worker, that she, she that's what one of the clinches for her was that this could be a serial killer in the midst with linking up that there were lots of sex workers who were going missing.

1:18:42 Yeah. And he's a body. What's going on here? Maybe there's more to these missing stories as well. So she was all over it I reckon, but she was not being listened to. Nope. Nope. No, and they bloody well should have, because who knows what would have happened if they had Of. Absolutely. How that could have potentially changed the outcome. Yes, as it was. So maybe we might. Do you think? Leave it here. And next week we're gonna talk about the victims. Yeah. How they came to be. Yeah. Who they were, a little bit about who they were and how this all kind of came to a head.

1:19:20 Absolutely. Get well into it. That's it. Excellent stay curious crime besties. Bye.