Episode 88 - Robert Hansen: The Butcher Baker Part 1 of 2

0:15 Welcome back to Crime Besties. We are here on a very, very

0:18 special day. It is Meg's.

0:20 We are. It is.

0:22 We're recording on Meg's birthday.

0:23 Oh, happy birthday. Thank you to everyone for the

0:28 amazing messages that I was just saying then that just pinging

0:31 away from the socials thanks to Emma posting things on there.

0:35 This. Morning.

0:36 As I said, I, I, I think I put in our Patreon group, she's

0:39 gonna hate this. So let's, let's get around her

0:42 and well, actually. My little my little brother, I

0:45 shouldn't say my little brother is much taller than me, but he

0:48 thought he got me this morning with a bit of a funny joke that

0:51 he was, you know, sent into the family group chat and jokes on

0:55 him actually go on. He sent a message saying, you

0:59 know, happy birthday to the most incredible person I've ever.

1:02 You know, he's had the pleasure of spending some what was it of

1:07 listening to and gaining informative information from.

1:12 This is a happy 100th birthday to David Attenborough today.

1:18 Oh, and by the way, there, thanks.

1:19 Happy birthday, Meg. I wrote back to him and said

1:24 this is totally fine. I am very honoured to share a

1:27 birthday with David Attenborough.

1:28 Oh, wouldn't you be? Wouldn't you be?

1:31 Also, I am more than half his age so I'm feeling pretty good

1:34 about that. Less than half his age.

1:37 Less than more than I'm more than half more.

1:38 I'm like, yeah. Well, you're less than half his

1:41 age. If you were half his age, you'd

1:42 be 50. Yeah, but so I'm more than 50

1:45 because more than like more than half, I'm like 60% his age.

1:49 Yeah, you're 60% of his age. Yeah.

1:51 So that's. No, you're 60% younger than he

1:54 is. Yeah, he's.

1:55 Like how it works. No, percentage wise, that

1:57 doesn't work. But you are you're you're

1:59 younger than him. Yeah.

2:00 I mean, you're. Yeah, but you're less than half

2:02 his age. Yeah.

2:03 Yeah. So you're less than 50.

2:04 OK. Yeah.

2:06 OK, that makes me feel older than him.

2:08 No, you're not, because. You're less than 50%.

2:10 Yeah. No, it's not.

2:11 It's not percentage, it's years. She's also got a cold at the

2:17 minute. My brain is not braining today.

2:20 Falling out well and forever. 2 sick kids at home.

2:24 Oh, it's been. Yeah, exactly.

2:25 Tell me you're a mum without, like, honestly.

2:28 Yeah, of course they had to be sick on your birthday.

2:30 Totally. I mean, one of them I could

2:31 sense was coming down with it. OK.

2:34 All week I've been like, Oh well, you know, is this?

2:37 Coming to a. Head and then when I started

2:39 feeling I'm well I'm like yeah I think he's I think he's given me

2:42 like you know I feel like this is he's been on the verge and

2:44 now I'm there OK but then the the younger one comes down this

2:48 morning going I don't feel. Good, because originally when

2:51 you messaged me this morning, you, you you said like Mason's

2:54 not well is it right if I bring him and you know he could sit on

2:57 the couch. Oh, he's done that before when

2:59 he's been unwell and we did not even hear which won't peep out

3:01 of him and he's he's sorted perfect child.

3:04 Yeah. But then when you when a few

3:07 like, I don't know, 20 minutes later you message, you're like,

3:09 oh God, oh God. The other one stick to.

3:13 I'm like, oh, that's not gonna. Go They will fight on the couch

3:16 instead of being quiet on the couch.

3:19 And Piper would be over stimulated.

3:20 Oh my God, if Brody came with. Yeah, because, like, because

3:22 obviously Piper is his child, even though it's your dog.

3:26 Yeah, he believes that Piper and him are like soul mates.

3:29 Or they are soul mates. Yeah, yeah.

3:31 Oh God, the list of things that he'll come out to me of.

3:34 Like, you know, Mum, I love you so much, but not as much as

3:37 Piper. Like you don't even live in the

3:39 same house. It's insulting me.

3:42 And you have your own dog and and a fucking axolotl.

3:45 Yeah, and a frog. Papa wins.

3:50 Papa wins. Yeah.

3:51 She loves it when he comes over for a visit, gets all the

3:53 attention and and all of that. So that's really nice.

3:57 Love it. Absolutely love it.

3:59 Life, yeah. How's the rest of your week been

4:01 like? If you've been coming down with

4:03 not feeling 100%, it's not great.

4:05 Great. Week.

4:06 No, it's been a bit of a it's just been busy and as well.

4:09 So yeah, I think that's why I'm rundown and sick.

4:12 But, you know, yeah, just soldier on.

4:14 Yep, overdose on vitamin C and he could.

4:17 Find in my household Panadol this morning.

4:19 Oh, have you got some? No.

4:21 Oh, I could have given you. Some Oh no, but I found what I

4:23 did find in my house was I had one box of Asproclia.

4:26 So like Oh my God, that is so old person.

4:29 I know. Well, I only had it in my house.

4:31 My niece stay with me one night and she was a bit unwell and

4:34 that was all she would have. And so it's been sitting in my

4:36 house since like late last year that no one else touches has

4:39 touched it, you know, So last night when I'm rummaging like

4:42 going to bed, going oh God, I've got to take something to bed.

4:45 And yeah. And I found that and went fuck

4:46 it. This.

4:47 Will do. Oh yeah, in a pinch that'll do.

4:49 But it reminds me of my grandma. She always took aspir clear,

4:53 never a tap. Like, oh, the taste of it.

4:56 I have to. It wasn't.

4:57 It's not, wasn't it? No, it's not what I remember.

4:59 I remember as a kid and it being quite tangy.

5:03 Like tangy. Yeah.

5:05 Where? No, it felt this.

5:06 I think they've obviously. Updated it because it wasn't

5:08 that bad at all. It's fairly bland.

5:11 OK. All right.

5:12 Yeah, it's obviously, that's obviously what she uses it, I

5:15 think so, you know. Yeah, yeah.

5:16 Less flavour. OK, yeah, well, did it do the

5:19 trick? It did last night.

5:21 Coming off the back of the Tylenol episode last week, I

5:25 think, you know, he asked for a clear, you know, got to give it

5:29 a go, hey. Say after that episode, I've

5:30 like become more aware of like, you know, things like that you

5:34 can get into. And it was actually like the

5:37 following day after recording that episode, I was making a

5:40 sandwich or something and I'd open the bread up and went,

5:43 well, someone could tamper with the bread and you.

5:45 Never, anyone would never get into bread.

5:46 But you know what Peter said to me?

5:49 He's like, which this actually it, it just made me go, oh, I

5:53 mean, yeah. So he's like, they chose to put

5:57 the cyanide into a capsule, whoever did it.

6:01 Yeah, but you could easily just get a like, his thing was you

6:07 could get a syringe with cyanide in it, inject it into like, say,

6:10 a bag of knobbies, nuts or something like that.

6:12 Shake it up and well in. Fact.

6:14 Well, because I think it was like it smells like almonds.

6:17 Bitter almonds like. Disguise the smell.

6:20 Yeah, inject it into there, shake it a bit around.

6:23 Bit of that and a salted nut bag, yes.

6:25 Exactly. And then?

6:32 This is a child, sorry. That's exactly what I was

6:36 thinking, a salted nut bag. Is there any other way?

6:43 No, that's so true. But then like, so anybody could

6:48 technically do that and you wouldn't be able to see

6:50 necessarily see a pin prick through a like a needle prick

6:54 through a, you know, a nut bag. Oh.

7:00 Jesus. Yeah, yeah.

7:01 No, that's so true. Yeah.

7:03 I mean, yeah, you could. You could do it with all sorts

7:05 of things, really. Well, let's not give people

7:06 ideas though. No, that's a fairpoint,

7:08 actually. Very.

7:09 But why would you want to freaking out?

7:11 Well, that's the thing. Thankfully, 99.99999% of people

7:14 don't want to do that, no. Most people aren't psychotics,

7:18 but some people are, I guess. Yeah, yeah.

7:21 So we went away last weekend. Yeah.

7:24 We went to the Grampians, to Halls Gap, to an event called

7:28 the Grape Escape. And it was such a fantastic

7:32 weekend. Yeah, I highly, highly recommend

7:34 it. It books out very, very quickly.

7:36 But it was it was so much fun. And we we ended up going up a

7:40 day early so we could do a hike one day.

7:42 And I showed you the photo of that with me descending down

7:45 these rocks. Oh my.

7:47 Goodness, I didn't know what I got myself into, but you know,

7:50 when you're in it, you're like, Oh yeah, this will be this is

7:52 good. It's like a good challenge.

7:54 And yeah, at the end of it I was like, oh, thank God, that's so

7:57 far. Can now go to the brewery and

7:58 have my mind. Yeah, it was really great.

8:01 It's such a beautiful part of Victoria.

8:03 It's just stunning. I haven't been out the way in

8:05 quite a few years. Now nor had.

8:07 I had to go back to yeah, yeah, yeah.

8:09 She missed the last trip they did to Horse Gap the.

8:11 Boys, didn't you? That's right.

8:12 Yeah. I didn't go to that.

8:13 So yeah, yeah, they and Peter just took the boys on his own.

8:16 And then, you know, there's like wild Kangaroos and emus

8:20 everywhere. And it was just, it was so

8:23 lovely. Really nice family time.

8:25 The not quite. Festival snakes now, so that's.

8:28 Always. That's true.

8:29 Much prefer it that way. The book they the festival had

8:32 heaps of stuff for the kids to do, so it was just a really

8:34 nice, really, really lovely. It was nicely, yeah.

8:36 It was good for kids too, in terms of the festival.

8:38 Yeah, I mean, probably for Lucas's age was probably like

8:42 maybe Max, right? Although they did have a rock

8:45 climbing wall which the kids all loved.

8:47 Loved that, Yeah. And then they had this really

8:49 big craft area and they could make different wooden things and

8:53 paint them and. Has kids busy while the adults

8:55 drink. Yeah, I mean, duh.

8:57 And then the boys saw on the on the little, you know, rundown of

9:01 what was happening for, for the day that there was a badminton

9:03 tournament. Yeah.

9:04 We're like, oh, that's so exciting.

9:06 We'll go over to the badminton. The the net literally went up to

9:09 Oliver's waist like it was for toddlers, I think.

9:11 Yeah. Yeah.

9:11 Right. So there are a few things that

9:14 probably weren't necessarily age appropriate, but still they

9:16 yeah, there was still plenty for them to do.

9:18 Yeah, yeah, just. Even we gave them some money,

9:20 they wandered around. I'm like, spend it wisely.

9:22 You've got all day to spend this money.

9:24 So they walked to all the different stalls and they, I

9:27 mean they had a lot of wine tasting stalls, but then they

9:29 had heaps. Of other stuff and stuff like

9:31 that, yeah, and things. Yeah.

9:32 So it's. Really cool.

9:33 Yeah. Loved your Megan Emma stand.

9:35 That was that was great. I know.

9:36 What? How about that?

9:38 Yes. So Megan, Emma, she does or they

9:40 do that. They're two friends as well.

9:42 I went up and said hi to them and they do.

9:45 You didn't tell them. Like, no, I didn't.

9:47 I actually. Wouldn't.

9:50 Too impressed. I'm like, Oh, my friend and I,

9:53 we have a podcast. And Emma as.

9:54 Well, yeah, and or Emma and Megas, we got the got in the

10:00 oven. So and then anyway, so they make

10:04 these really beautiful, like sort of, I would say along the

10:07 lines of like Gorman in terms of their bright prints and stuff.

10:09 And they make all different bags and T-shirts and yeah, really

10:14 cool stuff. Yeah, that was cool.

10:15 Well, I love that kind of thing. Good names, good quality stuff.

10:18 Totally. Yeah, Yeah, they were living up

10:20 to to the standard. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.

10:25 And then the other thing that came up in my feed the other day

10:29 is that we are actually a third of the way through the year now

10:32 or over now. Yeah, that's really not right.

10:34 I don't. How bizarre.

10:35 Like I thought you did the first part of the year go Oh.

10:38 Totally. I know.

10:40 Yeah, that's not, it's not OK. One of my work colleagues said

10:43 to me yesterday, she's like, next time I'm in your office,

10:45 I'm going to be like, oh, look, Christmas is coming up and we'll

10:48 be like, what? Yeah, yeah.

10:50 It feels like it's. Just we starting Christmas in

10:53 soon you get the. Time I'm not that I'm not one of

10:57 that early. I'm not that early.

10:58 I was going to say I'm not one of those psychos, but if you

11:00 are, you know, good on ya because it saves the I know it

11:04 saves the stress it now I'm more I tend to do like a November

11:08 you're October, November, October, November you get yeah.

11:12 And then I I definitely like to have my list done as in what I'm

11:15 going to get people. But now, because because of the

11:17 Black Friday sales, I tend to do all of my shopping on that day.

11:20 I tend to like Black Friday comes and I start then like it's

11:23 yeah, I should be planning pre but I don't.

11:26 I literally go, hmm, what's here?

11:28 Yeah, yeah. Neat ideas.

11:30 I need inspiration. Yes.

11:32 Yeah. I'm gonna be more organised this

11:34 year, just like every. Other year?

11:38 Sure, sure. Well, the people will hold you

11:39 accountable to. That yeah, well, I'm sure.

11:42 I'm sure we'll be getting messages.

11:43 Have you started your Christmas shopping yet?

11:45 I know somebody, a person at my work was telling me.

11:48 I remember her telling me this last year.

11:50 She starts hers in July and wraps everything but.

11:54 Then July I. Forget.

11:55 I would forget. I would.

11:56 I mean, you'd have to have a list, wouldn't you?

11:58 Because I would. I wouldn't remember.

11:59 There's no way to remember. Yeah.

12:01 Oh, no, I'm, that's why I don't start early because I know when

12:04 I have previously done that, I've bought things, put it away

12:08 going. I'm so organized and then it

12:10 comes to like October, November and that sort of thing, and I

12:12 start buying things and then go, shit, actually I already bought

12:15 something for that person. Yeah, Yeah.

12:16 And now I've spent more money and oh, they just have both.

12:18 Yeah. Because I'm a sucker for that.

12:19 I'm like, I don't do the whole like, oh, I'll hold that off

12:21 till next time. Yeah.

12:22 No, no, because then you'll forget next time.

12:24 Yeah. No, I'm not.

12:26 No, you can have everything I'd rather give.

12:29 I hear ya. Yeah.

12:30 And then? Yeah, and just spend shit loads

12:32 of money. Crazy.

12:33 I'm very good at that. Yeah, oh, Oh my God.

12:36 Spending money, that's the easy part.

12:38 My favorite thing to do? Oh.

12:39 Same, just if there was more of it it'd be great.

12:42 Oh, that would be really good. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

12:44 Endless amounts would be fantastic.

12:45 Yeah, yeah. Sure would be, yeah.

12:48 Speaking of which, did you watch any of the Met Gala?

12:51 Speaking of endless amounts of money.

12:53 I totally did like, oh I love it every year.

12:56 Who? Oh so do I?

12:57 Who is your favorite costume? I'm gonna call the costume from

13:00 this year. Oh God, favorite.

13:03 There's some freaking weird shit.

13:06 Do you like the weird shit though?

13:07 Yeah, I. Do love the weird in that I love

13:09 to have a laugh at it or whatever I go are you fucking

13:11 for real and how did you put that on yeah, that's what my

13:13 thing is of like it's like more like how did you what made you

13:16 decide to do that? I.

13:17 Felt that about the Kardashians. Like their little booby hard

13:21 booby costumes with their nipple.

13:22 Like the hard nipple and some like what?

13:25 Manoeuvring things, yeah. But I'm like.

13:26 What's who was the one with that had the person on the back?

13:29 Oh, I can't remember who that was, but that was a good.

13:31 One that was a good one I really liked.

13:33 That yeah, I liked that too. And then Donna was a stand out

13:35 for me with the ship on her head.

13:37 Yeah. And and then all of her little,

13:39 all her little floozies, like, you know, waving her, oh God,

13:44 her Cape or whatever it was up the stairs.

13:47 Yeah, yeah, that was cool. She's such a vibe.

13:50 Who? Else the one that irritated me

13:53 though, and I think it's her in general who irritates me.

13:55 And I feel really not a girl's girl when I say this.

13:58 So like lively? Oh, tell me about it.

14:02 Oh, no, I'm with you on that. I'm 100 and you know.

14:05 What, so princessy that I'm just like, oh, you can't do that

14:09 right now? No, you can't.

14:10 Look like butter wouldn't melt in your mouth right now.

14:13 Uh huh. Do you know what I mean?

14:14 Just you need to either double down on what you're, what you're

14:17 doing and what you're in this whole court case.

14:19 Well, and the court case is over.

14:20 I know. Yeah.

14:21 Like it was literally that day. That day, yeah.

14:23 To me, that's why I was like, no, you can't.

14:25 You should not come like a fairy Princess.

14:27 You need to come like I'm here to stand for the people, kind

14:31 of. Do you know what I mean?

14:32 Yeah, no, I do. I get it.

14:33 Felt really like Oh no that doesn't sit right.

14:35 I just. Felt like it was a bit samey.

14:37 Yeah, that's it wasn't first that Carla in that sense like

14:40 that's. Why I love to.

14:41 Have gone out here I like. It.

14:42 Yeah, yeah. And do something different

14:44 because I loved her dress last year that changed colour.

14:47 You know how they that was gorgeous.

14:49 I loved. That it was this.

14:51 Year I'm like, oh you've just fucking done the same thing with

14:53 different material like it's just.

14:55 Boring, Yeah. It didn't do it for me in that

14:57 sense. Like, to me, the other, the last

14:59 year's one was safe in some senses, like for Met Met Gala,

15:04 Yep. But at the same time totally had

15:07 the wow, wow, like amazing. Yeah.

15:10 And so, yeah, it fitted in. It wasn't outlandish great where

15:14 this year's was, just like, you could have worn that to the

15:17 Oscars, Yeah, kind of stuff. Whereas these other outfits,

15:19 there's no way you're wearing them anywhere else other than

15:21 the Met Gala, Yeah. Yeah, that's it.

15:23 Yeah. You know what?

15:24 This year made me realise a lot more and it was because of the,

15:28 you know, Lauren Sanchez Bezos and Jeff Bezos having basically

15:32 put the whole thing on all paid for the whole thing.

15:34 Yeah, is just how the whole thing works.

15:38 So the celebrities are invited by these like tech billionaires

15:42 who can actually afford the $100,000 a ticket.

15:44 Yeah, or it's bought the the spots for the celebrities are

15:48 bought for them by the fashion houses they represent and.

15:50 All of that to wear their dresses, Yeah.

15:52 And so they're paying $100,000 a plate.

15:55 Yeah, so I, I read somewhere that it costs $10 million to put

15:59 on. Wow, 10 million U.S.

16:01 Dollars, which I actually thought was cheap to put on to

16:04 put on does. That include the tickets.

16:08 No, no, no, no. And then they make they this

16:10 year they made $41 million profit.

16:13 Surely you could do an event that cost less than 10 million.

16:16 I mean, I guess in the sense of things like what how much profit

16:18 you're making on that is, you know, that's a.

16:21 But then also the $10 million was donated, right?

16:24 Yeah. That didn't cost the costume.

16:27 Whatever the Yeah, what whoever the beneficiary of the Met

16:31 gallery, yeah, you know, didn't cost them the the Sanchez.

16:34 Well, I I heard somewhere that Jeff Bezos bought that for

16:39 Lauren Sanchez Bezos as like a an anniversary gift.

16:45 Fuck, tell me you've got money without.

16:47 I know, right? I've got money.

16:48 Like I know that's what here's $10 million towards so that you

16:51 can go to an event. Yeah.

16:54 In a slightly underwhelming dress.

16:58 I know, I know there was meaning behind what she wore.

17:00 It was like, yeah, a nod to Madame X and blah, blah, blah,

17:03 blah. But I yeah.

17:06 Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm like, if you're sponsoring

17:08 the event, you could go a bit all out.

17:10 Well, you could have chosen your designer at that, you know what

17:13 I mean? Like you would have first did,

17:15 surely? Like, yeah, I mean, they might

17:16 not want you. Well, politically it would be an

17:19 affiliation, wouldn't it? But I'm sure there'd be

17:21 designers who'd be happy to go along that path.

17:24 I'd be a speaking point if nothing else, yeah.

17:26 That's true. That's true.

17:27 Yeah. Hey, any publicity is good

17:29 publicity. Yeah.

17:30 Yeah, anyway, right. We have got so many shout outs

17:35 here today. Very.

17:35 Many it's. Insane.

17:36 It's crazy, but Oh my God, we bloody love it.

17:40 Oh, just really quickly, one other thing I just really

17:42 quickly wanted to mention. Did you see in the news this

17:45 week that there has been a $1 million reward announced for an

17:49 arrest in relation to the Marion Barter disappearance?

17:53 Really. Yeah.

17:54 Yep, the lady vanishes. That's amazing.

17:58 So for those of you who don't know Marion Barter, she went

18:02 missing. So there's a there's a long,

18:04 very long, very long form podcast about this.

18:06 And her daughter Sally Laden is in it.

18:10 Yeah, very prominently. She's in in every episode.

18:14 And she enlisted the help of, I think there was, there were

18:18 Channel 7 journalists to, to help investigate it.

18:21 And they ended up uncovering so much information.

18:25 It ended up in an inquest. And I mean, I think they're

18:28 pretty sure they know what happened.

18:30 Yes. Oh, they don't know what

18:31 happened, but they know who did it or who had a hand in it.

18:34 Yeah. But so go and listen to it

18:36 because it's, it's a really fascinating story.

18:38 Very good podcast, very long. So there are there are other

18:43 podcasts about this that do it in a much shorter, shorter form.

18:46 But anyway. The long form 1 is so worth.

18:48 I mean, I know I got to a point where I was listening to it as

18:50 it was released, being saved and it was I think you and I talked

18:52 a lot about it when it was coming out and everything and

18:54 there is just going along that ride is really well worth it

18:58 like. Yeah, I think so too.

18:59 The UPS and the downs and seeing how they how things unfold.

19:02 In real time, Sally and her family like the daughter of the

19:05 woman who went missing like in her because this is years and

19:08 years and years I mean got. 40 decades, yeah.

19:10 Stuff like it's, yeah, yeah, it's quite a lengthy time period

19:12 that you're talking about that she's gone through this.

19:14 So, yeah, so basically she went overseas and then they never

19:17 heard from her again. Yeah.

19:18 And the, in the investigation of this, they found that she

19:22 changed her name to Flora Bella. What was it?

19:24 Marian Ramackel. And no, it was like Flora Bella

19:29 Natalia, Marian Ramackel or something like that.

19:31 Anyway, sorry, don't quote me exactly on that.

19:33 But then, you know, and that led to like finding out things about

19:38 the new surname and who that might relate to and why did she

19:40 do that? And anyway, it's so fascinating.

19:42 But anyway, they've just announced a $1 million reward

19:45 for the arrest of anybody involved.

19:48 The person. The person, Yeah, So.

19:50 Someone's got to know something more.

19:52 Oh, definitely, definitely, definitely.

19:55 Anyway, sorry, I just wanted to mention that, right.

19:58 And the other thing I want to mention is we are releasing this

20:02 a couple of days after Mother's Day.

20:04 So a massive, massive happy Mother's Day to all our lovely

20:08 listeners. We send all our love and

20:11 strength to those of you who maybe no longer have your mums

20:15 or you know, women who wanted to be mums, who might not be all of

20:18 those people. You're all in our thoughts.

20:20 But to everyone else, happy, Happy Mother's Day.

20:23 Yes, yes, enjoy the day. Enjoy, we hope you.

20:26 Enjoyed the day? Enjoy your day.

20:28 Yeah, yeah, everyone does it differently for all sorts of

20:31 reasons. So we're here with you.

20:33 That's it. Yeah, that's it.

20:34 All right, shout outs for today. A long list.

20:37 It's a long list because we've announced our Patreon

20:42 competition. We have actually had a huge

20:44 influx. So thank you to everybody who's

20:46 recently joined and all of you guys will be now in the draw for

20:49 our second our second merch pack.

20:53 So that includes Haley Rooney, Mel Daly, Anna S, Kim

20:58 O'Loughlin, Tanya Cox and Melissa Napa.

21:03 We really, really appreciate the fact that you guys have come on

21:05 board. We then have had coffees bought

21:08 for us as well. So Miss Tan, she has struck

21:11 again. Miss Tan is just she is amazing.

21:16 She's she's the one who always says you are my favorite.

21:19 And I put you up there in terms of, you know, how much I love it

21:22 in like with Crime Junkie and all these other podcasts.

21:25 Yeah, that have so much out of the fact that you even think

21:30 that we're up there. That really made a great.

21:32 Holy cow. Yeah.

21:34 And the other thing she said, which I just thought was really

21:36 gorgeous. She said that she acknowledges

21:39 the fact that we took a massive leap in starting this podcast.

21:42 And I just don't think that's something that you and I really

21:46 reflect on. We just kind of do it and it's

21:49 done, but it was a big leap. Like I think a.

21:52 Year or so. Yeah, actually you.

21:54 Know like to. Take the plunge and to really

21:56 put yourself out there, you know, I mean, sometimes.

22:00 When I sometimes I. Know when people say things to

22:02 us, I'm like, oh God, I forget that people listen.

22:05 Yeah. But anyway, thank you.

22:06 Thanks. Actually, do listen.

22:07 People actually listen. And then we had another, really

22:10 lovely, another coffee bought for us by Rose.

22:14 She's a cleaner and she said when she's cleaning people's

22:16 house, she's got out the earbud in and listening to us.

22:19 And she's like, I really don't think the people who I'm

22:22 cleaning houses for have any idea what I'm listening to.

22:25 They probably think she's popping on to popping along to

22:27 some Taylor Swift or something. And it's, you know, murder and

22:31 death and crime. I love that.

22:33 That's so good. Yeah.

22:34 So sorry, I've got. You've got more, a little bit

22:37 more. I'm really sorry.

22:38 So we also have had some really lovely comments on our socials

22:41 this week. So Trisha, Nisha Thompson, she

22:45 has been liking so many of our posts and really engaging with

22:48 our content online. I've just noticed, like, her

22:50 name often pops up when I'm looking at different things.

22:53 Yeah, she does all the clapping, hand emojis and all that sort of

22:56 stuff. So thank you so much for that

22:58 support. And then the username TMG she

23:02 just wrote on one of our things. You 2 are the fucking best.

23:05 Yeah. No, you are.

23:08 No, you are. Yeah.

23:10 So thank you. Thank you.

23:11 Yeah, you're all the fucking best guys.

23:14 Gotcha. Listening, So thanks.

23:16 Cool. If you want to come and join us

23:17 over at the Patreon, you go in the drawer at the at the moment

23:19 for a merch pack. So all you need to do is jump

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23:28 It's $5 a month. Join us in the patron and get

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23:35 You also get a mention on our main feed and you might win an

23:39 absolute piece of shit merch. Or any merch.

23:43 It doesn't have to be the absolute if you're that stay.

23:46 Curious. Yeah.

23:48 Bestie. Yeah.

23:49 Beautiful, too. Yeah.

23:50 So, I mean, there's lots of things to choose from, and you

23:52 can tell us what you want in that respect.

23:53 So you grab a hoodie, a notebook, I think.

23:56 What else do we say in the Packers?

23:59 Yeah. So yeah, we'll have a chat with

24:01 the winners when we draw them as to what they've got their eye on

24:04 and whatever design they wish to have on those items they can

24:08 choose. And if you want to check out our

24:09 merch, you can do so. We now have a website so the

24:13 merch can be viewed at www.twocrimebesties.com/merch.

24:19 And that'll take you to the Red Bubble website, which is where

24:22 we host our merch platform. Or you can just check out our

24:27 new website, whichistwocrimebesties.com.

24:30 Yeah, sure. Like I know.

24:33 I feel with a website. I know.

24:35 Look at us go always growing, always learning something.

24:39 Emma's done an incredible job with the website.

24:41 Oh, my goodness. But seriously, you know, you

24:43 were saying you had some issues with the editing software that

24:46 last week. Yeah.

24:47 And I've been trying to figure out how to do a website.

24:50 For God's sake, We're. Learning we're.

24:53 Learning. We're constantly learning.

24:54 So yeah, enjoy. Yep, we no, I don't think the

24:58 people understand that side of it.

24:59 The background like the the messages we said each other like

25:02 this. Fucking piece of shit won't let

25:03 me do this. What technology?

25:07 What's with this technology? It's not letting us do what we

25:09 wanna do. We sound like our mum.

25:10 Fucking hell. Like.

25:11 Often, like, like, you know, I really should stop hanging shit

25:14 on there, yeah. You know, I'm actually getting

25:17 to a point. So my in my car, I've got one of

25:20 those dashcam things and it was flashing at me the other day and

25:24 I said to Ollie, I'm like, can you just fix it?

25:26 Like I don't even know what's wrong with it anyway, He did.

25:29 I don't even know. I know he just.

25:30 Knew how to fix it, so I am becoming that we're shifting

25:34 into that next generation. When I do that, when that

25:37 happens, when the boys do that stuff, I immediately turn to

25:39 them and just say, just remember, I taught you how to

25:41 use a. Spoon.

25:42 Yep. OK.

25:43 And to wipe your. We've been there.

25:44 All right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

25:46 This is all because I taught you other things.

25:48 Yeah, that's right. I am taking some credit.

25:53 I crawled so you could walk. Exactly.

25:54 Yeah, that's right. All right.

25:57 Should we get into today's case? Because this banter has gone on

25:59 for way too. Long God, I'm gonna look at the

26:01 top. Oh God, every, everyone's gonna

26:03 be like, all right, get on with the fucking episode already,

26:06 people. Will be like no.

26:07 And then there's others that are like, oh.

26:10 Shut up. OK.

26:12 You're the person who thinks this is cool.

26:15 Still my favorite comment comment.

26:16 Yeah, I'm gonna get that on AT Shirt.

26:18 Yeah, actually that is so good. OK, so we are talking today

26:24 about the Butcher Baker of Alaska.

26:26 Yeah. And this is going to be a

26:28 two-part episode. Yes, because there is so much to

26:31 it. So there's to this episode we're

26:34 gonna chat about a lot of the free the lead up to what ended

26:39 up being this absolutely mass. It's actually unquantified at

26:42 the moment. The crime spree that he he went

26:46 on and the killing spree that he went on.

26:47 So yeah, as I said, it is A2 parter.

26:50 There is so much we just, there's no way we could have fit

26:53 this into one episode. Anyway, even in the two

26:55 episodes, I really feel like we still will have to brush over

26:58 some things, you know? It will either be you.

27:00 If you want deep dive more of this, please do.

27:04 Yeah. Because there is so much out

27:05 there. There is.

27:06 I mean, so I found researching this that there is so many

27:09 different things to research. I didn't finish reading a book

27:12 that I would like to. I want to go back and read that

27:14 thoroughly because it was kind of like, all right, I'm getting

27:16 information from there, but I want to look at the breadth of

27:19 stuff that's out there too. So yeah, in the time frame that

27:21 we had to research for this, there is so much information as

27:26 well as not no information on certain aspects of this too.

27:30 That is interesting. I think that warrants a lot of

27:33 discussion too, and I'm sure we will be bringing that up.

27:36 Yeah, in multiple situations as we go.

27:38 Offshore, yeah, but we probably, again, trigger warning.

27:42 There's stuff in this in terms of sexual assaults and things

27:46 like that, but also just misogynistic pieces of shit.

27:49 So we'll get there, Yeah. So look after yourselves,

27:53 people. Yeah, please do.

27:54 Please, please do. I think to really understand

27:58 this case and Robert Hansen, who, you know, is referred to as

28:03 the butcher Baker because of the crimes that he committed and the

28:07 fact that he his profession was that of a of a Baker, you we

28:12 really need to start early on. And when we we talk about this a

28:16 lot, when we're talking about perpetrators of these violent

28:19 acts, there is an that's right. There is absolutely a pattern of

28:25 behaviour that starts when they are young.

28:28 Yeah. And that is 100% the case in in

28:31 this instance as well, because so Robert Christian Bose Hansen,

28:37 he was actually born in the 15th of Feb in 1939 in Estherville,

28:43 IA. They moved when so he was the

28:46 oldest of two children. His mother was American.

28:49 Her name was Edna Margaret Hanson nee Peterson and he she

28:55 married a Danish man by the name of Christian Hanson.

29:00 He was a Baker and he owned his own business.

29:03 And so Robert has obviously followed followed down that

29:06 path. The family moved to Richmond, CA

29:11 in 1942. Now, I believe this was in

29:14 pursuit of another business opportunity for for Robert's

29:18 dad. Yeah, it didn't work out.

29:21 So by 1949, they moved back to Iowa and this time they settled

29:25 in Pocahontas. I would love to live in

29:28 Pocahontas. Sounds so idyllic until you talk

29:30 to you about this guy. Well, that's it.

29:32 And you look at him. Yeah.

29:33 Yeah. So Robert was thin, very awkward

29:39 as a child, had really, really bad acne.

29:43 And he had a stutter that, I mean, if you're thinking back

29:50 into the like what, the early 40s into the 50s, he was teased

29:56 relentlessly for that stutter. I think, I mean, in this day and

30:00 age that there's, you know, a lot of things that people with a

30:03 stutter can do in terms of speech therapy.

30:05 And that was probably not widely known necessarily back then, but

30:08 I think people are also. For it eventually.

30:10 But yeah, that's it. But I think people are much more

30:13 accepting of things these days. It's not definitely there's no,

30:16 I don't think that would happen in this day and age or that I.

30:19 Think society wouldn't allow happen but probably more behind

30:22 closed doors ish like you know whereas this would have been

30:24 public taunting. I believe it was.

30:26 I think like even his teachers used to tease him and and sort

30:30 of mock him. Yeah, because, I mean, in some

30:32 ways because there was such a lack of understanding of what it

30:34 was, a stutter. Yeah.

30:36 There would have been like, people who were like, would just

30:38 stop doing it. Yeah.

30:39 Why would you do that? Yeah.

30:40 There's not an understanding of the fact that he has.

30:42 No. Control.

30:43 Over that without actual therapy to to work through how to do

30:46 that. So yeah, yeah, that would have

30:50 yeah sucked. And he he did inherit that sort

30:51 of from his dad to his dad had a stutter as well.

30:53 So. And as a child his stutter was

30:55 apparently very severe. Yeah, yeah.

30:59 So his. So his dad, though, was also

31:02 deeply religious. Yeah, very strict and

31:05 disciplined. So his childhood was, I didn't

31:10 really find that his dad was necessarily violent, but very,

31:15 very hard, fan firm and yeah, very strict of what was and

31:19 wasn't OK in. The parent house quite humorless

31:22 as well. So there was no sort of fun in

31:24 their family. It was it was a very regimented

31:27 type of household. And yeah, look, in terms of

31:30 abuse, I think certainly verbal abuse in the household.

31:35 Yeah, I I didn't sort of see anything in terms of physical

31:40 abuse. No.

31:41 And that's I sort of, you know, looking back and looking at his

31:44 childhood, I mean, from previous serial killers we have looked

31:49 at, yeah. You know, you see some stuff

31:51 that where you really go off that is fucking God awful.

31:54 Yeah. Whereas with him, the most of it

31:58 is around this teasing rejection.

32:01 Yeah, kind of, yeah, sort of stuff that I mean, I don't want

32:05 to downplay it in that because that's awful for anyone to go

32:07 through being bullet is horrific and it's psychological and it's

32:10 you know, and it and I am certainly of someone who

32:13 believes that psychological stuff can be just as equally as

32:15 painful as physical abuse, but it just didn't, I don't know, I

32:21 didn't get the level of abuse that I have heard other serial.

32:24 Killers, I agree. I'm carefully trying to say that

32:26 without being disrespectful to the people.

32:29 No, I know. I know what you mean.

32:31 I see what you're getting at. I I think, I think you're right.

32:34 I think with Robert it was very psychological like his, the

32:37 damage to him was very psychological because even his

32:41 dad. So Robert was naturally

32:43 left-handed and his dad basically forced him.

32:48 I mean, as was the time that was.

32:50 Pretty much every second time. That's right.

32:52 You know, if you're left-handed, that's what they did.

32:54 They basically believe that no one should be left-handed

32:56 handed. It's and that is only up until

32:59 more recently. I would probably say it kids

33:01 during the 80s even. Oh yeah, potentially early 90s,

33:05 yeah, was the same. I think you're absolutely right.

33:09 I, I, I know people who've had that happen.

33:12 But then so. OK.

33:13 But I think if you're looking that at that from an individual

33:17 perspective, so Roberts had, he's been teased for his

33:20 stutter. He's been teased for his acne.

33:21 He's been, yeah, told that he can't be left-handed.

33:24 And that's wrong. Like he probably all those

33:27 things together, like you can imagine the psychological impact

33:29 all of that would have. Absolutely.

33:31 And he wanted to please his dad. Yeah.

33:33 And that was, I think it was seemingly impossible.

33:35 Yeah. Yeah, Yeah.

33:37 Exactly. That led to then obviously and

33:39 then his more later teen years where, you know, hormones kick

33:43 in and he starts looking for girls.

33:45 And I mean, so the poor guy's got this severe acne that's, you

33:48 know, like scarred him as well in this stage.

33:51 So he's, you know, his appearance.

33:52 He's not, you know, you know, overly appealing, I guess you

33:56 know that he's that in that sense as well.

33:57 And then he's got the starter and that and.

33:59 He's also little like he didn't really develop like he was.

34:03 He was quite scrawny, Yeah. He wasn't really into sports

34:08 aside from nuttery. I think that kind of, yeah, was

34:11 one of his. And he liked hunting as well,

34:13 but not into, like, I guess the more popular sports that maybe

34:17 girls might be more attracted to.

34:19 Yeah. But he he obviously, he would

34:22 approach girls and he would get rejected.

34:25 So this obviously played into his psychological abuse, you

34:29 know, in mind trauma of his trauma.

34:32 But I have to say I just fucking can't with it.

34:35 I mean there's fragile men just need to stop with this shit of

34:42 like that a girl's allowed to say no, 100% anyone is allowed,

34:46 anyone is allowed to say no, and that that shouldn't be something

34:51 that you then take to this extreme at all.

34:54 No, but see, this is like another thing though, which I

34:57 think plays into, you know, a potent.

34:59 Well, definitely. He's got a personality disorder.

35:01 Yeah. And, and we know, we know that

35:05 it's, it's been diagnosed and we'll get to that in a minute.

35:08 But he, you know, he in terms of the way that he perceives that

35:14 is because he thinks he's entitled in a way he's entitled

35:20 the right word. I think it is.

35:21 I think it is. I think that that's he's

35:23 entitled to have a a woman love him and want him and a girl even

35:27 like this is we're talking when he was a teenager.

35:30 But yeah, they're allowed to not want to go out with him.

35:34 And the fact that he upon rejection, he would get

35:39 seethingly angry. Well, there was one story where

35:42 he saw a girl that he locked, so he followed her home and knocked

35:49 on her door. And when she answered the door

35:51 and he asked her out and she said, well, no, I've got a

35:53 boyfriend. Well, she's not even saying no,

35:57 I don't like you, you're this or you're that.

36:00 No, I have a boyfriend. He went home, got a gun and

36:04 returned to a house. Like threatening her.

36:08 Is that going to make? Is that going to make her want

36:09 to go out with you, mate? Seriously.

36:11 I happened to stumble across a social media feed of this of a

36:14 post this week that I felt like just summed this up really

36:18 badly. This This is not just a serial

36:20 killer trait. You know, like.

36:21 Unfortunately not. This is unfortunately fragile

36:25 men in this society till to this day that they need to fucking

36:28 get over. It was a man had posted saying

36:33 guys, tell me your worst reaction when it from asking a

36:37 girl out when she said no, right, and all these men were

36:40 coming into the the the into the the comments saying right, She

36:45 laughed at me. She slammed the door in my face.

36:48 She you know, like I'm sorry, really not nice.

36:53 Not I'm not saying, you know, rejections never nice.

36:54 It's never nice. It's not that bad, right.

36:58 And then all these women started coming into the comments of

37:00 like, and they were responding with what men had done to them.

37:04 That was the worst thing that happened to them when they had

37:07 said no. And the level of I'm sorry, that

37:10 wasn't laughing at them. I mean, there was some body

37:14 horrendous stories these. Women were writing in there, I

37:16 bet. And I mean, from a personal

37:18 stance, I can say I was stalked, you know, at one stage, I'm sure

37:23 you've got stories that you've got can tell where you've, you

37:25 know, said no to someone and they've reacted incredibly

37:27 poorly. Every girl can get has those

37:30 stories that it's bullshit. The the the react, the male

37:35 reaction to rejection and the female reaction of rejecting are

37:40 very different. Very.

37:43 Do you think that as a society that's changing because you

37:47 don't? No.

37:50 I hope that women of our generation who have young boys

37:53 are using this time and this generation to shift things in

38:02 that perspective. And I know, like, you know, in

38:05 terms of respectful relationships and consent and

38:09 all of those things, like, it's OK, you know, that the boys,

38:13 young boys being taught that it's OK for a woman to say no,

38:16 just as it's OK for you to say no if that's not something that

38:19 you're comfortable with. Yeah.

38:20 And that doesn't mean anything necessarily.

38:24 Yeah. You move on.

38:25 Yeah. And yeah, yeah, it's hard.

38:27 It's hard to take that. No, it's hard.

38:29 It's hard. For anyone, it's hard for a

38:30 woman to take a no you. Don't have to go away and be

38:32 like, you know, like, oh, that's OK, that's fine.

38:34 Yeah, because that wouldn't be human.

38:35 That's not it's it's an emotional thing, but yeah, but

38:38 the fact they don't have the emotional regularity yeah.

38:40 To be able to go OK, that sucked.

38:43 I've my egos bruised slightly. I'm going to take a moment.

38:46 Yeah. And then OK after.

38:47 A few weeks, pick yourself back up.

38:49 Back in there, I'm going to try again, like, you know, and do it

38:51 less creepy or something, I don't know.

38:53 Yeah. Yeah, no, I fully agree.

38:55 Yeah, but it just summed it up for me with this guy that the

38:58 fragile ego of like how rejection has created him to be

39:03 who he became is fucked up. And that's something that

39:06 society, as a society, we need to really work on.

39:10 Yeah, in general. Yeah.

39:13 So he, Robert ended up joining at the end of high school, ended

39:19 up joining the Army Reserves and he lasted like 6 months or

39:25 something. I don't really know what

39:26 happened there. I couldn't the.

39:28 Initial training and things really.

39:29 That was about it though. Yeah, but didn't.

39:32 No. Then go on.

39:33 Was there a reason for that? I I'm not 100% sure, but

39:36 obviously there's a story of like what happened with his

39:38 leave and things. Yeah, I don't know whether that

39:39 was all part of. It OK.

39:41 That that seemed to spin things another way for him in general

39:45 in life. Right?

39:46 OK, yeah. Or maybe he didn't intend to.

39:48 Maybe that was just something they all did a little bit, you

39:50 know, like, oh, that's what you do when you finish.

39:51 School you do your basic training.

39:53 And and then go do what you're gonna do.

39:55 Well, so after that, though, he ended up working as a drill

39:59 Sergeant at the police Academy, which, yeah, I don't really see

40:02 how that translates, but that's, that's how that's what he did.

40:06 Yeah. With the Pocahontas Police

40:09 Agency. Yeah.

40:11 And. He was, well, he was there that

40:13 he began a relationship with a much younger woman.

40:16 Yeah, they actually married and it was a very, very short lived

40:20 marriage again. I don't really.

40:23 I mean, I know why they split up in the end.

40:25 Yeah, but I don't really know what their relationship was like

40:29 in that short amount of time. They were married for less than

40:31 a year. It was six months, I think.

40:33 Yeah, yeah. They were married for

40:35 approximately 6 months. They never had children.

40:37 I think she dodged a bullet. I think she absolutely dodged a

40:40 bullet. I bet you she looks back now and

40:42 goes, oh thank God that panned out the way it did.

40:44 At the time, I mean, divorcing would have been so, so

40:47 scandalous, particularly like, I mean, well, I know definitely

40:51 Robert's family were very religious.

40:52 I dare say then her family were quite possibly the same.

40:55 That's how they mingle in their circles.

40:57 Like that's how they meet most of the time These, these, these

40:59 young people at this time. So it would have been huge.

41:02 So I dare say they had to be in a like, I mean, well, there was

41:04 a very strong reason as to why they split split, but obviously

41:07 that was enough for her family to support her.

41:10 I guess through that hopefully and work through it.

41:12 She's we don't know her name. No, it's not public and good,

41:16 good. We need to know.

41:17 Me too, I hope she's had a wonderful life after this.

41:19 So the reason that their marriage broke up was because

41:23 Robert actually set fire to the local school district's bus

41:27 sheds and buses contained within and caused an obscene amount of

41:33 damage in in that act. And when he was, you know,

41:39 arrested and interviewed about it, they were asking him like,

41:43 why have you done this? Like, what is what's this all

41:45 about? You know, what was the

41:47 motivation behind it? And he basically said it was to,

41:51 like, pay back for all of the rejection he received at

41:53 schools. Revenge.

41:54 It was revenge. Yeah.

41:55 Isn't that horrific? It's just so fucked up, that's

41:58 what. I mean, I'm saying that, you

42:00 know, these reactions to these things just so disproportionate.

42:03 Yeah, yeah. How long was he imprisoned for

42:05 then? So that for that one or I don't

42:07 think he actually even. Oh, he's sorry.

42:09 He served 20 months of a three-year sentence at the

42:12 Animosa State Penitentiary. But even with that, I do believe

42:16 there was a lot of like Dave, like Dave visit.

42:21 He would go and work and things like that.

42:23 He was necessarily in prison the whole time.

42:26 I feel like I remember reading somewhere that he would do like,

42:29 what do you call it? Like work a work schedule of

42:31 some sort, like outside of the prison?

42:33 Yeah, OK. Like day release.

42:35 Day release stuff, because that's right, because there was

42:37 talk of him going and that's right.

42:39 We'll go back to slightly that when he was in the Army and they

42:42 went on this, he had this leave him and his mate went to New

42:45 York and so this was his first exposure.

42:47 This other guy was obviously a little bit more worldly, I'm

42:50 guessing. And when they got to New York,

42:51 he introduced him to like a brothel and and prostitute

42:55 prostitutes. So they they did utilize their

42:58 services and Robert rather liked that so.

43:02 Because he could get what he wanted when he wanted it.

43:04 Yeah. So when he when this occurred,

43:06 when he was in, in prison and he was doing like these work day

43:09 release things, he would, it got to a point where like prison

43:14 guards or whatever would drive him to work and back again.

43:15 But it got to a point where further into his sentence where

43:18 he would drive himself. And so he liked that because

43:21 what he would do is he'd leave work early enough to better go

43:25 to the, the Main Street sort of thing about to watch the

43:28 prostitutes on the street before then going back and returning to

43:31 the prison. So for the evening.

43:34 So yeah, there was a little bit of weird shit going on.

43:36 Just even back then, a lot of weird shit.

43:39 Yeah, while he was in prison at that time, a psychiatrist did do

43:45 a profile on him and diagnosed him with infantile personality.

43:50 He apparently he was obsessed with revenge and then so he also

43:56 had low impulse control, a compulsive need for control,

44:00 overwhelming insecurity, insecurity, hostility towards

44:03 women. They said that rejection was

44:07 absolutely the catalyst for this explosion, that he, this fire

44:10 that he said there was. They said that there was a

44:16 sexual component to this. Yeah, already which I found.

44:20 Interesting. Very interesting.

44:22 But they said there were signs that his sexual urges were

44:24 becoming intertwined with his need for dominance and

44:26 punishment, and that arson was a release for that.

44:30 Yeah. Because he wasn't getting it

44:32 elsewhere. Down with psychologists.

44:35 Whoever saw him at that point, I feel like obviously there was he

44:38 got out of him or she got out of him.

44:41 A lot. Yep, in their sessions.

44:43 Yep. And then interesting.

44:44 We also need to acknowledge the fact that arson is one element

44:48 of the McDonald triad, isn't it? So I mean, if we're looking at

44:52 building this serial killer profile tick and we've got the

44:56 trauma in the past. In the past potentially there's

44:58 got to be a head injury somewhere.

45:00 Yep, I mean quite, quite possibly.

45:02 And it could have been bullied and beaten at some point, you

45:04 don't know, like it could have been a hit of a head somewhere

45:06 like that that, you know, also involved.

45:07 So we don't know of anything specific, but you dare say that

45:10 would have been in the. There was an excerpt from the

45:13 psychiatric report that's been released fairly recently,

45:17 actually, and it says he is a person who has a great deal of

45:20 difficulty in expressing his feelings.

45:23 When these feelings build up, he has to have some kind of

45:26 release. So at this point, all that he's

45:28 really committed is arson. OK.

45:31 So just keep that in mind. Yeah.

45:33 Because I, I guess the other thing that that prison taught

45:37 him and is that that he could put on a mask and be whatever

45:44 person they needed him to be. Like.

45:46 He was quite clever in that respect.

45:48 And he saw what he needed to do. I mean, in terms of being

45:53 released early and that kind of thing.

45:54 That was, I think, manipulation on his side.

45:57 Yeah. Because he's in prison.

45:59 He started then to develop this goody, goody persona.

46:02 He did everything he was meant to do.

46:05 Yeah. I mean, aside from obviously he

46:06 wasn't being watched when he was going to the brothels, but any

46:09 time he was being what? What?

46:10 Not going to the brothels, but driving past them.

46:12 Yeah. Any time he was being watched,

46:14 observed, he had this. Absolutely.

46:17 You know, I'm a, I'm actually a good guy.

46:21 I'm just, you know, I just want to get out there and start, you

46:24 know, my life and blah, blah, blah, blah.

46:25 Yeah. So he really started to put this

46:28 mask on. Yeah, definitely.

46:30 Around this time, the there was a note in one of his files that

46:34 he was a model prisoner and that he was really quiet.

46:38 He worked in the prison bakery because that was something that

46:41 he wanted to follow in, you know, his dad's footsteps.

46:43 He'd worked in his dad's bakery as a young child.

46:46 So he he certainly had those skills.

46:48 He didn't cause any trouble. And yeah, he was a good boy.

46:51 It was something else. Someone's one of the prison

46:54 guards said he was a good boy. Vomit.

46:57 Anyway, OK, so I guess. The other thing we should

47:00 probably mention too is that he, you've touched on it before

47:03 about he did enjoy hunting at this point.

47:06 So even at this, at this stage in his life, I think his dad

47:09 even got him into it. Yeah.

47:10 So in terms of the hunting and things, they, they, they would

47:13 go out and shoot deer and things like that.

47:16 So he had quite a an array of weapons that he had at home,

47:19 guns and things like that already.

47:20 And he was a good young man from a young age, wasn't he?

47:23 Yeah, yeah, and fishing too, which, you know.

47:27 Good one. Just boring.

47:28 Sorry. I can fishing shooting.

47:31 Not not for me. Thank you.

47:33 No, I just want to really quickly have a chat at here

47:36 about this, what I think is like a failed intervention point.

47:41 Totally. And what would have changed had

47:45 so like, because I, I looked at the psychological report, you

47:47 can't read the whole thing, but there's, there's certainly a

47:50 fair, fair few excerpts that you can find online.

47:55 Yeah. And I'm just so intrigued by

47:58 looking at what we can even see and going, why the fuck did they

48:02 not insist that he have psychological support beyond

48:06 this? Because like, even in that

48:08 report, it basically says he ticks one or we now know two.

48:13 Really. Yeah, pillars of the McDonald

48:17 triad like. When was the McDonald triad

48:19 established? Like would they, that

48:20 psychologist have been aware of that at that time?

48:22 That's actually a really good point.

48:24 Let me have a. Look, yeah.

48:26 Because, because I just think, Oh my God, you've, you've

48:28 pinpointed so much here, yes, in this psychological analysis of

48:33 this man, but then there's been no intervention.

48:34 Like you haven't actually then tried to.

48:37 I mean, look, I think in a lot of circumstances with certain

48:39 psychopaths, there's no rehabilitating.

48:41 No. But who's, why didn't they even

48:43 try? Why didn't they even start that

48:45 process? Is it because he put on this

48:47 facade that he was so perfect and this, you know, and then he

48:50 fooled them into thinking, Oh yeah, this was the one off.

48:52 And the parole board's looked at him and gone, oh, he's a model

48:54 prisoner. He's learnt from, he's learnt

48:56 from his mistake. And I can at this point, I can

48:58 sort of, yeah, OK. It's the next one that I think

49:01 is an even bigger. Yeah, point of entry where there

49:05 should have been more, definitely should have been

49:07 more. Yeah.

49:08 Ramifications for his actions. Yeah.

49:11 But I mean, because clearly this first psychologist, as I said,

49:13 it was good at their job. Like, I mean, there's plenty of

49:16 other, you know, serial killers that we've had assessed by

49:18 psychologists that you look at reports and going fucking

49:20 kidding me. You've got that wrong.

49:21 Like, you know, and you've missed that there were things

49:24 that were missed. Whereas I feel like that

49:25 psychologist like got his number.

49:28 Like, you know as much as you possibly.

49:29 Could at that stage. 100% So the McDonald triad was first

49:32 proposed by psychiatrist JM McDonald in his 1963 article.

49:37 And he went to prison in 60, didn't he?

49:39 Yeah, 19. 60, yeah. Yeah.

49:41 OK. So you probably, it's probably,

49:43 yeah, just being established kind of out in there.

49:46 Yeah, in the thought process in the psychology world.

49:48 Interesting. Interesting timing then maybe,

49:50 yeah, like not necessarily knowing what you're looking.

49:53 For not knowing that that's what he turned out to be at that

49:55 stage, yeah. I see it.

49:56 OK. Yeah.

49:58 So the next sort of step in all of this, he's come out of

50:02 prison. Yeah.

50:03 And he met and married a local woman by the name of.

50:09 Oh my God, Darla. Darla Yeah.

50:11 I'm like I know her name but I had to read it.

50:14 I have to say I'm just on that Darla, because if you watched

50:17 the movie Frozen Ground, yes, yeah.

50:20 So I because I loved in that that, you know, the woman who

50:22 plays Darla in that is that I love her in the pit.

50:24 Yes, she's so. Gross.

50:27 Personalities and those yeah. In.

50:29 That show, I mean. Who from like the you know, the

50:31 head nurse. Like, yeah, yeah.

50:33 Who? What's her name?

50:34 Catherine. Oh my God, Catherine.

50:37 Yeah. She's amazing.

50:38 So good. Nicolas Cage is in that as well.

50:40 And. Oh, and John.

50:41 John. Cusack.

50:43 Plays Robert Hanson's character in it and like it's not a great

50:46 movie but. It's actually, it's actually not

50:48 great. It's not, no, I didn't.

50:49 I'm not a big fan, but I watched it years and years ago and I

50:52 just. I've watched it very much in the

50:53 background at one stage this week when I was researching

50:55 because I had already seen it, but.

50:57 It's Catherine Lanessa. Yeah, and.

50:59 Then when she came on the screen, I went yes, Oh my God,

51:01 she's. She's so good.

51:03 I love her. Yeah, yeah, I thought, I gotta.

51:04 Say to Emma, I know. Anyway, sorry.

51:09 So, yeah, he met in 1960. So as he was literally getting

51:13 out of jail, yeah, he. So Wally was in prison.

51:17 His first marriage was annulled so because.

51:20 Oh, so that's actually now you've said that I didn't, They

51:22 didn't divorce. That's maybe how she got around

51:24 that a bit more that it was annulled.

51:26 Probably because he was in prison and that does break the

51:29 sanctity, yeah. OK, yes, I think yeah, dodged a

51:32 bullet. Yep. 01 half dodged a bullet.

51:34 Yeah. Yeah, Sorry.

51:36 In 1963, not long after getting out of prison, he met Dalla

51:40 Heinrichson. Yeah, She was a OR.

51:42 She was in the process, I think at the time she was studying to

51:45 become a teacher, and she ended up being a teacher of children

51:47 with disabilities. So that attracts a very certain

51:51 type of very caring and compassionate person.

51:53 Yes. And I believe she was.

51:56 I believe she was exactly that. Oh, to this day, she's been, I

51:58 know a particular writer who has who interviewed, not interviewed

52:01 her, but spent time with her. And he said to this day that she

52:04 is an incredibly intelligent woman, but just.

52:06 I'm very unassuming. Yeah.

52:08 He called it complex was a word that I used, that he used.

52:11 And I thought, well, that's interesting.

52:12 That's. Interesting.

52:13 Yeah. Well, I find decision she's made

52:16 interesting and we will get to that probably more next week.

52:19 Yeah. But yeah, OK, let's keep going

52:22 with that. So they married in 1963 and went

52:25 on to have two children, a boy, a girl.

52:28 Yeah, a boy and a girl. They moved to Alaska in 1967.

52:33 He convinced Darla because she was moving away from her whole

52:37 family, her support network. She'd grown up in the area.

52:40 He convinced her to move there for a fresh start.

52:42 Now, why would he need a fresh start, Might you wonder?

52:46 Very interesting. And he wanted to move somewhere

52:49 where he could pursue his love of hunting and escape his

52:54 reputation in Iowa. Because of course, I mean, I

52:56 think in a small city or a small town like Pocahontas, your

53:00 reputation would procedure if you've done the things that

53:02 you've done, you've been in prison, you that would be hard

53:05 to escape even if you genuinely rehabilitate it.

53:08 I think that would be a really tough.

53:10 Certainly people going, we're not going to the back that

53:12 bakery, we'll go to the other bakery.

53:13 Like kind of situation that if that's what he was going to do,

53:15 that it's like, yeah, you'd choose a different bakery if you

53:18 knew that was the guy who burned down the the bus depot.

53:21 Yes, exactly. Yeah, exactly.

53:24 So they moved into or just outside of the main city of

53:27 Anchorage in Alaska. Yeah.

53:29 And he established a business in that in that area and it

53:34 actually became fairly successful fairly quickly.

53:37 They the. Reason he was able to do that

53:39 though was a payout though. He got a what now?

53:44 God now I've lost that where that was from.

53:46 What did he get that payout from for?

53:48 It was a insurance claim that turned out to be fraudulent.

53:53 OK, I don't. I'm not sure.

53:56 No, can't remember. I can't remember reading it now.

53:58 It was like $50,000, OK, that he was he received for some sort of

54:03 insurance thing. Yeah.

54:04 And sorry, that's how he set up his bakery and that he used that

54:07 money to do that. OK.

54:09 I assumed they must have sold assets.

54:10 Yeah, no, that was it was definitely this.

54:12 Yeah, I know that's that, definitely.

54:14 But now I just cannot put together in my brain.

54:15 That's right. We'll be able to figure, we'll

54:17 be able to figure it out as we go along.

54:18 Oh, good. So this is one thing that I

54:20 like. And everywhere you read or

54:22 listen to anything about this case, it just, it just makes me

54:25 chuckle. The police officers would always

54:28 go to his bakery for, for coffee and doughnuts every day.

54:33 Like, how stereotypical. Yeah, of course they did.

54:37 But he he really supported the police and he would often give

54:41 them free, free coffee and doughnuts for for coming in.

54:45 He also did a lot of community outreach during this time.

54:50 So not only he was a coach for one of his kids, I think it was

54:54 Little League baseball teams. He would give, you know, at the

54:58 end of the day, there's obviously leftover bread or

55:00 leftover stuff in a bakery. He would donate all of that to

55:03 the local homeless shelters. Yeah.

55:05 Now the other thing that we need to note is that Anchorage at

55:08 this time was undergoing a massive, massive boom.

55:11 So they were building a pipeline, which was for oil that

55:14 was coming from northern Alaska. Yeah.

55:18 Down through. And So what it meant was that

55:20 the town of Anchorage went from a population of about 60,000 to

55:24 a population of 200,000 in just over 2 years.

55:27 It's huge, massive, massive, massive boom.

55:30 And so you can imagine along with that came a lot of

55:34 infrastructure and came a lot of need for certain itinerant

55:38 workers. Yeah, in the form of sex workers

55:43 and. Well, to meet and we should

55:44 because I guess we should mention that sex workers exist

55:48 because people pay for that and there are certain men who like

55:52 that. Yeah.

55:52 So I was just find it amusing that sex workers get judged.

55:58 Oh, they do. When at the end of the day, you

56:00 shouldn't be judging them for their work.

56:01 No, he's. I mean, Robert Hansen's a Baker

56:04 because people eat bakery goods like, you know, like.

56:07 Yeah. And the at least like them.

56:09 Yep. So you're a teacher because

56:11 people need kids, need teaching? Yes, 100%.

56:14 So there were people that were moving into that town who are

56:18 particular kinds of people who do particular jobs.

56:22 You know, they, they needed a lot of men working in that area.

56:26 So therefore sex workers also came because they knew they'd

56:29 make money. They also opened a lot of bars

56:31 and a lot of, you know, establishments like that.

56:34 So yeah, you're right. The the demand was there and and

56:39 people rose to that need. Yeah, very much so.

56:43 Very much so. The girls were coming to the

56:45 area, were making damn good money.

56:47 There was a good for them to come there because there was

56:50 money to be made. Yep, Yep.

56:52 Yep, good on them, good on them. No judgment here.

56:56 So no. So anyway, so we're looking now,

57:00 Robert's established this, you know, fairly successful

57:02 business. By this time Dolla had finished

57:04 her studies and she was working as a teacher, I believe to start

57:09 with. I mean, with any new business,

57:11 it takes a while to financially get on top of things.

57:14 So for a very, for a fairly, for quite a few years there, Dolla

57:17 was actually the main income earner in the house and so she

57:20 was working full time and they had their two young children.

57:23 I mean, it's a very typical family set up, isn't it?

57:26 Yeah, now it was. Yeah.

57:30 So the the tipping point though, and this is when it was looked

57:34 back on forensically, you know, after everything kind of came

57:38 about, even once the bakery started earning money, it wasn't

57:44 being funnelled back into the household.

57:48 Now just keep that in mind because there was Robert had

57:51 access to money that Dollar didn't even really know existed.

57:55 Yeah, yeah. So I guess we're looking now at,

58:00 oh, sorry. Also during this time, Robert

58:05 decided to learn to pilot a light aircraft.

58:09 Well, he said, learned, but well never got a license.

58:12 No. Was he mostly self-taught?

58:16 I believe so. I.

58:17 Think so too. I think he did have a friend who

58:19 I think he helps him out. Yeah, I think he did have a

58:22 friend who helped him out who who was a licensed pilot.

58:26 Having said just mentioned friend, yeah, I mean, he was a

58:30 very unusual man in lots of ways.

58:32 And very, I mean, shy is a word that was used about him in your,

58:35 in his name, around his neighbors, like kind of the way

58:38 they would describe him. I'm talking that he was sort of

58:40 shy and quiet sort of man. Yeah.

58:42 And so he didn't have all that many friends.

58:45 And Darla was very keen for him to have friends.

58:47 She would literally like set up play dates for him to like meet

58:50 people. I think she seems like she was

58:52 someone who was a little bit a little bit more outgoing, a

58:56 little bit more confident in herself.

58:57 I mean, as a teacher, she speaks in front of, you know, groups of

58:59 kids and things that and would get to know local families

59:02 through that as well with having being a teacher.

59:05 So she would often approach people and sort of say like, oh,

59:08 my husband likes hunting and your husband likes hunting and

59:12 do you think they'd maybe like to go and do that together?

59:14 And many of these men would say, Oh yeah, sure, I'll go out with

59:18 him one day and they'd go hunting and stuff, but they

59:20 wouldn't want to go again. Like they would find him quite.

59:23 Unusual. I'm pretty sure that he only had

59:26 two actual friends. And when I say friends, I mean

59:30 people he would hang out with. Yeah.

59:32 Semi regularly there were people that he would and even then when

59:35 we say friends, yeah, they all sort of found him a bit odd, but

59:39 we'll come back to them. We will come back to them.

59:41 So yeah. So he's learnt how to pilot a

59:43 plane and he ended up purchasing a Oh my God I.

59:46 Told I wrote it down. I told Peter that I would write

59:49 it down so that I think. It's in my notes for next.

59:51 Week I actually think it might be in my notes for next week so

59:53 stay tuned for next week and we'll tell you oh I've got it

59:56 here Piper something it is it's a piper Pennsylvania 18 super

1:00:01 cub you're welcome producer Pete there you go I wrote that down

1:00:03 just for you it means literally nothing to me I had to look up a

1:00:07 photo of it so I got a picture in my mind of what it actually

1:00:10 like it's. Very small, yeah.

1:00:12 Two seats, not a lot of luggage room.

1:00:15 Yeah. But like apparently in Alaska,

1:00:17 because it's such a huge state and it's also sparsely

1:00:20 populated. Yeah, it's sparsely populated,

1:00:22 but also like there is like a rough terrain, all these sorts

1:00:24 of things that like kind of owning a plane is almost like

1:00:27 owning a car sort of situation. It is a bit more like, I mean,

1:00:30 to us, you know, owning your own plane seems like, oh gosh,

1:00:33 that's, you know, outlandish. Yeah.

1:00:36 You know, let alone, you know, like just, you know, high one

1:00:38 like as Peter would to go fly. I mean it's not a cheap thing to

1:00:41 no so let alone you're owning your own plane.

1:00:43 That's pretty cool, but it's fairly standard ish in Alaska.

1:00:47 Also because a lot of their terrain is inaccessible by

1:00:50 vehicles. So if you're a hunter, it's not

1:00:52 uncommon to have a plane so that you can get into the wilderness

1:00:55 to hunt your deer. And and then people would build

1:00:58 little cabins out there along, you know, man made airstrips and

1:01:02 grassy knolls that they would land their their aircraft on.

1:01:05 So yeah, as you said, you're absolutely right.

1:01:07 It wasn't something that was highly unusual.

1:01:10 No. In fact, I saw a photo of the

1:01:12 airstrip where he kept his plane, where he stored his

1:01:14 plane. There was so many planes.

1:01:16 It was like a car park. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:01:18 So, yeah, that just gives you a bit of an idea.

1:01:20 Yeah. It wasn't unusual, but it was

1:01:22 something that that he did. It's.

1:01:23 Expensive to do, like, you know, to have to maintain like it's,

1:01:27 you know, time. Yeah, all that.

1:01:28 But yeah, you know, I'm assuming you have to pay fees to have it,

1:01:32 you know, kept at the the airport like that.

1:01:33 I would imagine so, yeah, Yeah, yeah.

1:01:36 All right. So I think we're really starting

1:01:38 now to build the identity of like this dueling personality,

1:01:42 dueling two faces kind of a person.

1:01:45 So we've got Bob the Baker, the family man.

1:01:47 He was an award-winning hunter. He'd won some.

1:01:49 Prestigious. Well.

1:01:52 Well. That's actually a really good

1:01:53 point. We will also talk about that a

1:01:55 little bit more next week. So a prestigious hunter?

1:02:00 Well, at this stage, this is what we believe.

1:02:04 OK, Sonar is putting out, they will say.

1:02:06 Yeah, yeah. And he was also, conversely,

1:02:11 starting to become a predator in this in this neighborhood.

1:02:15 Yeah. So he would frequent strip clubs

1:02:18 in the area. And now we've spoken about these

1:02:21 sex workers, you know, briefly, but a lot of them would come,

1:02:25 some of them would come for a short time to earn a bit of

1:02:27 extra money and then maybe go back to their lives, you know,

1:02:32 wherever else in the States they they lived.

1:02:35 And so of course, they're probably there's not great

1:02:41 record of the type of, you know, employment records or anything

1:02:44 like that of the women who were working in these clubs.

1:02:47 And so it's quite it's. Transient Lifestyle.

1:02:50 Very much so. But it's also like I I really

1:02:55 feel like no one really cared for these girls at all.

1:02:58 And I think that's probably true of sex workers the world around,

1:03:01 you know, it's horrible. Yeah, it's absolutely awful,

1:03:04 but. It's the other person who's in

1:03:06 that movie. Sorry, it's $0.50.

1:03:07 Who plays the pimp? Oh I fucking love $0.50.

1:03:10 I love it, but Oh my God if you don't follow $0.50 on the

1:03:14 socials there is something wrong with you.

1:03:16 He is amazing, go and follow him my.

1:03:19 Favorite things he ever did was bought buy out jar rules.

1:03:21 I know there's 4 rows of his conscience to piss him off, so

1:03:24 that was. I went in the front rows.

1:03:29 He's so good. I just, I just fucking love him.

1:03:31 I love him. Anyway, so he'd so during this

1:03:36 time when he first started going to these strip clubs, there

1:03:38 were, there were several complaints about him from the

1:03:42 sex workers to the police, which would have been a really big

1:03:45 barrier to entry. So what that makes me think is

1:03:48 that his behaviour was so concerning to them that they

1:03:52 were willing to put themselves out there and go to the police

1:03:54 where they knew they would face judgment.

1:03:56 They knew they would face, you know, well, God only knows what

1:04:00 or probably be rejected, to be honest, or just not be believed.

1:04:04 And they still did it anyway. And but the the I guess the hard

1:04:08 thing was these first complaints were that he was his behaviours

1:04:12 were strange and made them feel really uncomfortable, but it

1:04:15 wasn't. But anything gut instincts were.

1:04:17 Telling them something you know, like but.

1:04:20 Like to me, the fact that their gut instinct propelled them

1:04:24 enough to go to the police says a lot.

1:04:27 We need to believe women when they speak about these things,

1:04:31 yes. What it turned out was that his

1:04:37 behaviour towards sex workers was becoming increasingly

1:04:42 horrific. And yeah, it it was just, yeah,

1:04:48 absolutely horrible. So basically we're talking now

1:04:51 in the early ish, 17197171. OK, so sex workers started to

1:04:57 disappear. A lot of the times if they

1:05:00 weren't reported, they weren't investigated.

1:05:03 If they sorry if they were reported, went wholly

1:05:06 uninvestigated. Because there's an assumption of

1:05:09 like, oh, they could have just gone, you know, like moved on.

1:05:11 Like that's what the response. Would be like, I, I read a story

1:05:14 or it was a, an, a news article that was actually made more

1:05:18 recently. So it was obviously reflecting

1:05:21 on, you know, times of the past. Yeah.

1:05:23 But these women would have had friends within.

1:05:26 Oh, they did. Yeah.

1:05:27 These, you know, of course. Yeah, they're Co workers.

1:05:30 They would have been friends, yeah.

1:05:32 And so they would have known if they had, you know, if they had

1:05:35 have just gone home or gone. Reported missing because, like,

1:05:37 you know, I saw her last night. She said she was going, you

1:05:40 know, to go meet this person. You know, that's all she was

1:05:43 doing. She was then meant to be at work

1:05:45 today. Yeah.

1:05:45 And didn't rock up. Yeah, that's the stories that

1:05:48 were going to the police where and the police's reaction was

1:05:51 that to that was, oh, she might have just, you know, decided to

1:05:53 go back home where she's from you.

1:05:54 Know, but they didn't then follow that up they didn't

1:05:56 investigate that and go Oh well, maybe they no, maybe let's ring

1:06:01 her home and yeah, like prepare. In with people that might know

1:06:04 her at home or where she. Well, they well, they would I

1:06:06 mean, I guess in that sense they would kind of be like, well, we

1:06:08 don't know any information about this person.

1:06:10 Yeah, like, and a lot of the time even friends, they didn't

1:06:14 divulge where they came from a lot of the time, I guess because

1:06:17 a lot of them came from pretty shit homes.

1:06:19 I mean, it's why they were seeking out other places, you

1:06:22 know, find themselves. In that point.

1:06:24 So I guess a lot of these young girls would rock up and kind of

1:06:26 go, well, I'm not telling you. I don't, I won't tell them.

1:06:29 They change their names. They, you know, a lot of the

1:06:31 times. They wouldn't use the other

1:06:32 names. Yeah.

1:06:33 So yeah, it would become difficult to investigate, not

1:06:36 impossible and could be done if they really wanted to.

1:06:39 Yeah, but it just got put into the too hard.

1:06:41 Basket by the police, yeah. Too much work for someone they

1:06:43 didn't value. Yep, that's.

1:06:45 Let's just say it as it. Is I think you're absolutely

1:06:47 right. And it's horrific and it's

1:06:49 horrible, Yeah. So I think we'll talk about

1:06:52 December 19, 1971. Yeah, Yep.

1:06:55 So, well, first of all, 1971, Hanson was arrested twice that

1:07:00 year. Yep, the first time he was

1:07:03 arrested for abducting and attempting to rape a housewife.

1:07:08 That's a horrible story. Oh my God.

1:07:11 Then he raped a sex worker. Yeah, Oh my God.

1:07:16 I'm sorry, I was repulsed in like in an interview with a

1:07:19 police officer, a police officer who was like, Wolf, how do you

1:07:24 rape a sex worker? That's not even possible.

1:07:28 Oh my God. What?

1:07:29 What the fuck? Everyone has the right to say

1:07:33 no. Yep.

1:07:36 I just, I know it's the times, but I still can't.

1:07:40 It just really infuriates me. I.

1:07:41 Hope it's just the times and I would hope that in this day and

1:07:44 age that wouldn't be definitely would I be a thing.

1:07:48 God, do you want to talk a little bit about the the

1:07:51 housewife? I haven't got a whole lot on her

1:07:54 background, but she was basically because I've got it

1:07:57 down that. Was she a secretary or a

1:07:58 housewife? Because every time I read

1:08:00 something different. OK, I've only written down

1:08:03 housewife, right? There's a number of spaces

1:08:05 where, yeah, she was actually said that she worked as a

1:08:07 secretary somewhere as well. So, OK, I don't know.

1:08:10 Yeah, both could be true. Both could be true, yes, but

1:08:12 yeah, she was a blonde haired, you know, kind of attractive

1:08:17 young woman. Yeah.

1:08:19 And so she was Yeah, He. I think he positioned her and

1:08:24 she said no, and this is where he said no.

1:08:30 I'm gonna. Take you and do what I want.

1:08:33 She yeah. So he did.

1:08:34 He did abduct her and rape her and which was just absolutely

1:08:37 horrific. He attempted to rape.

1:08:39 He didn't, actually. Got away.

1:08:40 That's right. She fought.

1:08:42 Fucking hard. Good on her.

1:08:43 And amazing, so great on her that she then went straight to

1:08:47 the police and, and reported it. I'm so glad that she had the

1:08:50 guts to do that because I'm sure that again, these men and these

1:08:53 jobs at these police force, this police force was, we're not very

1:08:56 open to hearing these sorts of things from women.

1:08:59 So she wouldn't report it. But they did take her very

1:09:01 seriously. Very seriously.

1:09:02 Because she was what? And because she was.

1:09:05 Beautiful. And she was married legitimate,

1:09:09 like legitimate in a legitimate relationship.

1:09:12 And she had children like, yeah, yeah.

1:09:15 It compared to then when when a sex worker comes in to explain

1:09:19 that she was raped by this person, who she I can identify

1:09:23 him. She they know exactly who this

1:09:24 person is. So they do arrest him for both

1:09:27 of these and then he. Basically happened within days

1:09:32 of each other. Within days, it was very, very

1:09:34 close to each other. Yeah, I dare say.

1:09:36 Well, my take on this psychologically is that he

1:09:38 didn't get to rape the first woman.

1:09:40 Yeah. He then was like, oh, I need to

1:09:42 get this urge out. Yeah.

1:09:43 And then he's taken the sex worker and.

1:09:45 I think you're right, yeah. But so then, yeah, so obviously

1:09:48 the police have then, like arrested him for both these and,

1:09:51 you know, looked at him at this and then they've done a plea

1:09:55 deal with him where he will cop to some lower lesser charges for

1:10:01 them only. Agreed to accept or the in the

1:10:04 plea deal, yeah, he had to plead guilty to the abduction.

1:10:08 And the Trump did rape. Yeah.

1:10:10 No, I don't even think. Take the attempted rape or not.

1:10:14 It pleaded no contest to assault with a deadly weapon for the

1:10:17 abduction and attempt. Oh, and attempted breakup and

1:10:20 the rape charge was dropped. Yeah, but he, he.

1:10:22 Yeah, but he in all that anything that happened to the

1:10:25 sex worker was completely dropped.

1:10:28 They just wouldn't bother with that one at all, which is just

1:10:31 it says a lot about where they're at.

1:10:35 And I really think this is a key entry point where he is not held

1:10:40 accountable for his actions. But what it also did was teach

1:10:44 him that if you take the nice housewife right, you get

1:10:50 punished for that. Yep, if you do these same

1:10:54 actions to a sex worker, that's fine.

1:10:57 Yep, and you'll the the cops will let you off on that.

1:11:01 Yep. And and he's, he's definitely

1:11:04 taken that from him. So he was sentenced to five

1:11:07 years in prison for that. He only served six months and

1:11:12 then had to serve the remainder at a like at a halfway house and

1:11:16 work release program. Yep.

1:11:19 Now what did he do while he was in this halfway house?

1:11:23 Yeah. Work release program.

1:11:25 Ah well. Stalked.

1:11:27 But he what? Women.

1:11:29 Women on the streets, Yeah. And indulged in what he wanted

1:11:34 to indulge in. Yep.

1:11:36 Now at this time he remained married.

1:11:39 Is this? His wife, he did, yeah,

1:11:40 Absolutely. Yeah.

1:11:41 Is this when no 2A further assessment was done on him and

1:11:44 it was recommended that, well, he was diagnosed with bipolar

1:11:48 disorder? Yeah.

1:11:49 And it was recommended that it be court ordered that he take

1:11:53 the medication for that. But it never ended up happening.

1:11:56 Happened like as in it was recommended but not accepted by

1:11:59 the court. Correct.

1:12:00 So I mean, again, another entry point of do I do I think he was

1:12:04 bipolar? Oh no, no, no.

1:12:07 I don't know. Do I think this medication could

1:12:09 have helped? Possibly.

1:12:11 So that actually happened five years later, right?

1:12:14 So in 1976, that was when he attempted to steal the chainsaw.

1:12:18 OK, right. Yes.

1:12:19 And he was convicted of larceny, sentenced to five years in

1:12:23 prison again. Yeah.

1:12:24 And the mandatory psychiatric. Psychiatric treatment for manic

1:12:27 depression, which we now call bipolar disorder.

1:12:29 Yeah. He ended up getting off on time

1:12:32 served because there was a period of time, I think it was

1:12:35 like literally two months or three months.

1:12:37 It was nothing. Yeah.

1:12:40 While they while he was awaiting this trial for all of all of the

1:12:43 paperwork to come through and they just let him go.

1:12:45 Yeah. And you're right.

1:12:47 They didn't then follow up on his court mandated medication.

1:12:50 Medication adherence. Yeah.

1:12:53 So I mean again, another failed intervention.

1:12:56 Point yeah. Oh, there's so many points where

1:13:01 I think, well, the courts have let down the women in this.

1:13:08 Yeah, there were points where there was, there could have been

1:13:11 a greater level of intervention for him, for his psychological

1:13:16 issues. Yeah, absolutely.

1:13:18 Which? I don't know.

1:13:20 I just don't know. I mean, I know these people.

1:13:22 It just said you can't treat necessarily.

1:13:26 Not all kinds of psychopathy, no, But.

1:13:29 At least you could have got him off the streets.

1:13:30 You could have him, you know, more closely watched all these

1:13:33 sorts of things could have been in place.

1:13:35 Yep. To ensure safety.

1:13:37 Yep. Because I mean, I mean, it

1:13:39 shouldn't go and said his children said that he was a

1:13:41 loving father and he was a good father.

1:13:44 They never had a childhood where he was an abusive person or

1:13:47 anything. No.

1:13:48 So he had elements of him that were whether, as you say, it's a

1:13:51 mask. I'm not saying that that's not

1:13:53 who he truly was. No, but he was able to do that.

1:13:56 So I mean, if he'd lived that part of his life and not been

1:13:59 allowed access to another part of his life, maybe he could have

1:14:04 been. At least those people would have

1:14:05 been safe. Yeah, 100%.

1:14:07 Yeah. Yeah, I think you're right.

1:14:09 It's just we have spoken about this in so many episodes as

1:14:14 well. It's all of these failed

1:14:15 intervention points. Yeah.

1:14:17 Why authorities didn't intervene or didn't follow through on what

1:14:20 they should have and what that outcome would have been, we

1:14:23 don't, we don't know. No, I can pretty safely say that

1:14:27 had even just medication adherence for him I think would

1:14:30 have made would have made a big difference.

1:14:32 It could have subdued some of those, you know, impulse control

1:14:35 sort of things. Percent.

1:14:37 Yeah, just. I mean, we don't.

1:14:39 The possibility. It's a possibility we don't.

1:14:41 No, but I'm sure it wouldn't have done nothing.

1:14:43 If nothing else, it would have meant that eyes were on him

1:14:46 constantly. Yeah, okay.

1:14:48 And they were not. And they were not actually, you

1:14:51 know, what the blinkers were on like because they were seeing

1:14:55 some things but not wanting to. That there's that and there's

1:14:58 also like, you know, something had happened.

1:15:00 They'd be like. But that's Bob.

1:15:01 That's Bob the Baker. Yeah, You know, he's a bit

1:15:04 weird. I mean, we know he's a bit

1:15:05 weird, but. But he's, you know, he's one of

1:15:07 the boys. He's, you know, he's.

1:15:08 I don't know that he was one of the.

1:15:09 Boys, no he wasn't, but well, but they treated him like.

1:15:12 That yeah, because they gave. Because he gave them free coffee

1:15:14 and Donuts. No, just because he was a man, I

1:15:15 reckon. You reckon?

1:15:16 I totally do. When we get down to it, and

1:15:18 we'll get to it next week. There are parts of this where I

1:15:21 go that's so fucked up that is just men.

1:15:24 Protecting, Oh, men behaving badly, It is.

1:15:25 Yeah, Yeah. Men protecting men.

1:15:27 Yeah. No, I see what you're saying.

1:15:29 All right, Do we want to maybe have a quick chat about where

1:15:39 we're going to leave this and pick up again next week?

1:15:41 Well. I guess we can sort of just soft

1:15:44 entry here, maybe to a police officer who was good at this.

1:15:48 Yep. So as we've said mentioned

1:15:51 before, there were women going missing and a particular police

1:15:56 officer by the name of Maxwell Farrell, who was one of only two

1:16:01 females on the police force in Anchorage and badass, shall I

1:16:06 say. She's been go girl like she's

1:16:09 she's great. She's great.

1:16:11 I think she's fantastic. Yeah.

1:16:13 Now, she said her being on the police force was not welcomed.

1:16:17 Literally she they did not have a change room they could use at

1:16:20 the at the the station. There was nothing expectations

1:16:23 that. She'd be the one to make the

1:16:25 coffees and go out and get the lunches and yeah, treated.

1:16:28 Very poorly by the the men's society that the police force

1:16:32 was, but she did not give a shit.

1:16:34 She was in there to do the job. Was a fucking bad she was.

1:16:38 Bloody good at her job, too. Yeah.

1:16:40 So she saw that this was happening and was investigating

1:16:43 various like she would be one of the people that was being that

1:16:46 was investigating these missing people.

1:16:48 And she already had flagged with her police, with the Anchorage

1:16:53 police that the possibility of do we have a serial killer?

1:16:56 She was already putting a few things together.

1:17:00 So as early as sort of, you know, set like 70s sort of

1:17:04 stuff, she was. She.

1:17:06 Was flagging that so we should really just start with her.

1:17:09 Just kind of well before anyone else knows anything that has

1:17:12 already been spoken about by a female, but no one has listened.

1:17:17 And no one respected her opinion no or her expertise in her role.

1:17:22 And it turned out she was the only one who saw what was

1:17:24 actually happening. The clincher for her in this in

1:17:27 was that a body did turn up, the first body that was found, which

1:17:31 we can kind of get into, I guess at this point.

1:17:33 Yep, that she investigated, who she was sort of leading

1:17:36 investigating in this. This body that had turned up.

1:17:39 This body would then become known as a clute, a cluten and a

1:17:42 cluten Annie. Yeah.

1:17:44 And the reason for that is that it was the body was found near a

1:17:47 glutener in a very remote area and has never to this day been

1:17:51 identified. But the way that when she

1:17:55 investigated this, this body that had turned up and and the

1:17:59 fact that they were unable to identify her, she didn't she

1:18:02 didn't link to any missing persons that they had on file.

1:18:06 And there was reasons to believe that she was possibly a sex

1:18:08 worker that. Do you know why?

1:18:12 What? Was it no What made them think

1:18:14 she was a sex worker? They found red boots buried.

1:18:17 Yeah, red CFMB's. Kind of style and I like nice.

1:18:21 So that just means you're a tick.

1:18:22 Like tick sex worker. Sex worker bang.

1:18:24 Yeah, I love it. Anyone can wear them.

1:18:29 Yeah. But yeah.

1:18:31 Yeah. So they were led to believe that

1:18:32 she was possibly a sex worker, that she, she that's what one of

1:18:35 the clinches for her was that this could be a serial killer in

1:18:38 the midst with linking up that there were lots of sex workers

1:18:41 who were going missing. Yeah.

1:18:42 And he's a body. What's going on here?

1:18:45 Maybe there's more to these missing stories as well.

1:18:47 So she was all over it I reckon, but she was not being listened

1:18:51 to. Nope.

1:18:53 Nope. No, and they bloody well should

1:18:56 have, because who knows what would have happened if they had

1:19:00 Of. Absolutely.

1:19:01 How that could have potentially changed the outcome.

1:19:04 Yes, as it was. So maybe we might.

1:19:08 Do you think? Leave it here.

1:19:09 And next week we're gonna talk about the victims.

1:19:13 Yeah. How they came to be.

1:19:14 Yeah. Who they were, a little bit

1:19:15 about who they were and how this all kind of came to a head.

1:19:20 Absolutely. Get well into it.

1:19:22 That's it. Excellent stay curious crime

1:19:24 besties. Bye.