Episode 91 - Oscar Pistorius & Reeva Steenkamp

0:15 Welcome to Crumb Besties to episode 91. Had a few false starts this morning but that's OK. Meg just said who'd start a podcast. I don't know what more idiots, morons we and of course, today's the day that we really need to get the recording done quickly because our bigger kids are going are playing into school sports today and we'd love to go and watch them totally. Oh, God. But you know, of course, today's the day that shit's not working. It's not working and everything decides to like, you know, to be different.

0:43 The screens are different and yeah, and. Oh my God sake, honestly. Now tell me, how's your week been? Mental, absolutely mental. Just everything I've had kids doing deciding that their life's ruined by teachers telling them off for laughing. I've had, yeah, you know, you name it. Their work's just insane. Yeah, just ready for the weekend. But then I know the weekend's gonna be full on, too. Like, it's just. It's not gonna be the children I'm thinking I'm gonna need. But no, no, of course. Not crazy crazy as in like just the regular sports stuff.

1:17 But I literally was like, I don't know the sports on when we get to these double sport season, I'm sure you're feeling the same, that it's like you sort of go, oh, OK, well, yeah, that's on on Saturday, but Sunday we're gonna get stuff done. And no, there's more sports, I guess. Oh God yeah, that just eats into your day more. And more exactly. And my SO, Oliver, my oldest son, he is, he's gone up an age bracket in basketball. You know what time his game is this weekend? What? 4:15 PM. Oh. My God, 4/15 Oh, that's like time to be at home with a glass of wine.

1:49 Oh. Obviously, it's really cutting into my, you know, yeah, wine time. That's some that's. Drinks and nibbles time, as my parents would say. From back in the day, I love a Saturday although drinks and nibbles. Nibbles. Potter nights? Yep. Potter Day Saturday. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. But no, no, not until at least 530 probably. No, that's so, yeah. And the thing with that is that you've still got your little that's games probably mid morning. Yeah, that. Yeah. And that's because I'm literally this morning like looking at how can we gonna fit in, like just picking up the groceries.

2:21 And not that I do like a walk around the shop these days. I do it. Does anymore? Seriously, when I hear people who do that, I'm like why? Why are you wasting your time? Exactly. But yeah, I've jumped online. I've got my shop all ready to go, but I'm like, when will I book it for pickup, like kind of thing. And I'm a shocker it I book it for the morning, regardless of what time I'm going to pick it up. You're one of those. I'm one of those really annoying people in a I get a text message from Woolies saying get here.

2:44 Yeah, I've never had that. You might be surprised to hear I've. Only had it a couple of times. Like clearly they've just been banked up. They've got too many orders sitting there or something. Yeah. But yeah. So like, I'm like, when am I going to pick me out and pick groceries up this weekend? And I'm like, OK, I think I'm going to have to get up extra early and try and go and pick it up and get it home and unpack it before we then leave for basketball and Oh my God, fuck this. That's always an after sport thing that I do, not a before.

3:12 Definitely. We'll have to soon. You'll have time in between. Yeah, well, in between the next time, Yeah. Oh my God. Oh, it's oh, see my kids, 'cause they're a bit closer in age, I guess. Oh. That's. True, there's probably still always flow onto each other a little bit more. Yeah, you end up with the gap, which has helped with footy but not with basketball. That's right, although footy this weekend has been a bit weird too. Anyway, whatever, it's fine. We have to manage it all. We all know that the the juggle of it the juggle is real.

3:37 Oh yeah, I mean this weekend 40 I'm like drop one, drop, go drop the other one, go back to the other one, watch that game, pick that one back and take the other one like it's. I'm just Oh yeah, your minor at least flow on from one to the next, not a much time in between. But we'll go there. Yeah, yeah. No, this week will be a lucky they're near each other in terms of distance because it can be shit with that. Yeah, that's it. It's just fitting everything in is just mental. And then where are we meant to fit in?

4:00 You know, going to the gym? Oh yeah, no, that's what you need a thick Richard for. Oh. No, I'm no, this is where I need to invest. In a Rotary and not and not. My issue with that is I need one that can suck up the most amount of dog you've ever seen. There's got to be. Something. There's got to be one that's made for that. Look, they are. They get they're made for dog hair but not that level. Level of dog hair, Yeah. I I mean look, I vacuum most most other days pretty much. Look, if you're flowing around with a stick vacuum picking up most of it, then a robo vac could be fine surely?

4:35 Yeah. Surely. Surely. Yeah, I might just have to read Doc every like a little more more often than than other than for other people. Yeah. I wonder if they all communicate with one another and they're like, oh fuck, I've been placed in a household where I have to suck up bloody dog hair all day. And the other ones like well, I'm in a household without kids and animals so I'm. I have a fucking that sits on me. I. Love those videos. Does Greece? Oh no you don't have one. I was like, does Greece get freaked out by?

5:03 I used to have one, my old dog when I had one in previously and yeah, and he used to get fully freaked out by it. Yeah, I had to always put him out when I had it going. He did not like he'd literally he wouldn't. He'd never barked that, my lovely fudge, but he would. He would literally just shit himself and. Like run to the other room. And like shot himself like no, actually poop. No, no no, no. He would run to a room and cry,

5:26 have to put him out so he didn't see it because if he saw it, it was like. Devasiety. Yeah. Full anxiety. Yeah. Piper, even Luna was the same. They just ignore it like it's not a thing. Yeah, I'll see. Chris doesn't even like the regular vacuum like so. Piper doesn't like our stick fat, No, but she she's fine with the robo. Yeah, right. Figure. See, that's weird. See, like, because I get freaked out by it when I walk around the house, when I see it here and stuff. And I'm always like, Oh my God, I'm on your way.

5:50 I don't know what to do. What do I do? Where do you want me here? Oh my God. It'll go around you. It's fine. Oh God. Anyway, I we have a lot to get through in terms of shout outs today, so I'm gonna get started on that so we can get straight into today's episode, you know? We don't want more people bitching about our long oh. My God, seriously, if you don't like our banter, that's OK. Skip ahead. Skip ahead. We always put in the show notes when the banter's done, and when that case starts, you don't have to send this message about it.

6:24 Just skip ahead. Skip ahead. Awesome. Great. The majority of people love it so much they just get these randoms like Oh my God that's terrible. Yeah, so many people message us and they're like, I love your banter a lot. Yeah, well, okay, yeah, we're doing this for the people. The people. All right, so first of all, patrons, Yeah, we have quite a few new Patreons. So first of all, we had Tracy V this week and I just wanted to give a special shout out to her friends Catherine and Caroline. They're based on the NSW South Coast.

6:52 Yeah, a group of three besties. They catch up for for coffees most Friday mornings and TCB has been a topic of conversation for them on more occasions than one. So shout out to the three of you, Tracy, Catherine and Carolyn and I love a little little girl group and the fact that you catch up every week. Love it. Pick that up. Very cool. We then have Rebecca, Bunt, Shaz, Haley, Heaney and Kimberly. So thank you to all of you guys for joining our Patreon this week. You are all in the draw to win a merch power.

7:26 You are and literally this is the last couple of days before we this episode will drop on the 2nd of June and you have until the 4th of June. So you only have two days left guys to enter in outdoor draw to win that merch pack. So if you are really wanting to do that, this is your last chance. So jump in there and join the Patreon and you might win a merch pack. Good luck to everyone who absolutely will enjoy. That very soon. Now buy me a coffee. Oh, Miss Tan strikes again. I think we've mentioned her in the last three episodes.

7:59 By the way, I actually saw a bit of a photo of her from our socials. Oh holy fuck, what a hot man Hot grandma, holy shit. She's gonna. Think I'm amazing? Oh. Miss Tan, you go, girl. Crap grandma Bullshit and her. Like her grandkids are a teeny teens. Yeah, what? I was like blown away. Oh, Miss Tan, you go girlfriend. Yeah. So last week she bought US1 coffee and then she bought us another one this week and she's like oh I didn't realise I only bought 1 and there's two of you so I've bought you. Another one we share.

8:31 No, and we won't. Well, no. Emma will down that one before I get a look in. Yeah, bloody earth. Oh God, I can gulp them back. You really can, yeah. It's hard to keep up some days, but I try. Right, So we've also had like so much engagement on the socials this week. It's really hard to pick out different comments, but I've done my best to pick out a few a few of the the ones that really kind of stuck with me. So first of all, thank you to Louise Francis. She said we are her new favorite podcast and we are she got up to date in the last three weeks.

9:04 Oh my God, we actually have listened to 80 odd episodes, 80 whatever 9 episodes. Including those first few. All the first ones. I'm so sorry, Louise, but thanks for sticking with us regardless. Jennifer Newth, she said. She just absolutely loves our banter. See and our insightful storytelling. So thank you, Jennifer. Yes, we like to think we're insightful. Definitely. I love it when I I shared that screenshot to you guys in our in our TCB group chat with producer Pete and he was like, make sure you shout out the asshole that you know.

9:38 Yeah, gave us the bat. I'm like, no. I'm not giving. I don't even know what his name was actually. It was a bloke too. Why am I assuming it's all? Gone. I know. I think it was. I think it was a woman. I looked OK. I did look a bit into it.

9:51 Lauren Gibson. So she actually made she, I think you had the banter back and forth with her on the socials. But she made a comment that she can hear Chewbacca in our intro music. Yes. And now that I hear it, I can't unhear it. Yeah, totally. So do it again. Do it again. Do it again because I'm already going to embarrass myself in this episode with different accents and whatnot. And then I just wanted to give another shout out to a really long time follower of ours, a really loyal listener named Rouge.

10:22 She's had a baby named Harper, and she sent us the most beautiful photos of Harper with her pet toy, Axolotl. Not pets, toy, no. One else is that stupid? And apparently her dad said that Harper looked like an axolotl when she was born because her hands were always up by her face. So, oh, so, so cute. Marianne Dawson, who I have to say, I see her name coming up all the time in all our story. She always likes them, claps them, you know, whatever. Yeah, I do see her name coming up. And that just, it means so much.

10:55 Like, I really appreciate that kind of engagement. And then finally, I need a massive shout out to Annie and her best friend Melissa. So Melissa gifted Annie a piece of shit mug at dinner last night. Absolute piece of shit mug. Not the mug's, not the piece of sheet. No, that's the slogan on the mug. Yeah. For those that you're watching at home. It's just showing off hers. And she also. Melissa also bought one for herself. So they can think of us and each other when they're having their coffees. And Annie just also said that she may possibly use hers as a wine cup in the evening.

11:35 Don't hate that. Like when we play a game sometimes of is it coffee when we go in a footy at night, Yes. Have you? Have you a cup with? Everyone keep cup, keep cup. And then we'll send a photo and have a guess what's in my cup tonight. Tonight AG and T night. You're on a groaning. Oh yeah, I love me and Negroni. Maybe it's an Negroni on occasion. When I go not coffee. That's it, that's it anyway, so thank you absolutely everyone so much support. We, I know I say this every week, but it really isn't lost on us just how wonderful people are and how like how engaged our audience are we really?

12:15 Really appreciate, haven't mentioned to you and I off the top of my head now I can't remember who because there's a good few people that have sent this to us actually. Yeah, this video of an axolotl who was clearly a lot smarter than Kyle. Oh yeah, who plays tic tac toe with their owner on the tank. Right. I maybe should share the socials. The video, which is absolutely gorgeous. So my kids have been attempting to play it as requested and hasn't gone well it feels. Like a floating turf. Like I just don't really.

12:47 Brody reckons he won a game. As in. Kyle won a game. Kyle, he reckons Kyle won one of the games, but he goes. But that was, what do you say? He goes, he goes, oh, but that was me kind of, you know, giving him a leg up, like. What do you mean? You mean playing on his behalf? Yeah, like choosing a square that might beat you like. Which is he never lets anyone else do so impressed that he didn't cry because Kyle won. Yeah, that's. True, that's true. He's growing. He's growing as a human I. Love it, but yeah, it's been attempted, but now the glass of the tank looks horrendous because I didn't have a whiteboard marker at home.

13:22 It's just not something I have lying around my house. So they've used the chalk markers, liquid chalk that I use on my other board. Yeah, on the tank and Oh my God, I just. Need isopropyl alcohol? Yeah, no, it's super clean. Clean it because like the Windex is really does. Not no the Windex. Doesn't not. And I don't really want that going in the tank, I guess. Yeah. So yeah. Maybe you don't want the isopropyl alcohol going, you know that. Little giggly drunk little. Sensitive laughter a little. Oh my God, yeah, so the tank's looking filthy now, so they're playing, trying to play tic tac toe with.

13:57 Him, so no. Is this a weekend for cleaning out Kyle's tank? Definitely. Oh my God. Oh God it's gross. Oh yuck. It's a nightmare. All right, well, you enjoy that? Well, I'm a sipping well after bloody 5:30 PM, sipping on the mimosas and whatnot. Yeah, do that. Yeah, I'm. Gonna send you a photo. You might need to have one while you're cleaning the tank. That's the only thing that'll make it semi bearable. True. Yeah. Yeah. Let's. OK, You're welcome. OK. Thank you. Today we are discussing, I think we spoke in a Patreon episode, I don't know, a few a few months ago about cases that really stick with us.

14:34 And this is one of the cases that has really stuck with me for honestly, the reason was because I was glued to the the court proceedings that was broadcast internationally at the time. And honestly, it was probably, I mean, I was probably too young to really be invested in the OJ Simpson court case. And seeing that, although I do remember seeing bits and pieces where I was a bit older when this happened and more invested and more engaged, especially in the court process. And I remember that really intrigued me and fascinated me at the time.

15:08 Two of like who he was like before all these things. But you said who we're doing, we're doing the Oscar Pistorius and the murder of Reeva Steenkamp. Yes, let's call it that, yeah. So yes. Sorry, I think he he was, I mean particularly like this is like within a time frame of him becoming well. No, he was so famous. So famous at the time. Like, not long before this happened. I mean, we're gonna get into all of this, but not long before this happened, he was performing on the world stage. Exactly.

15:38 Everyone knew who he was because he was. He has a unique story. Definitely. So all right, let's get into it. I wanted to actually go through Reeva's background first. Yeah. Just because you know she is the victim in this, let's highlight her. We really need to highlight her. So. Reeva Steenkamp Reeva Rebecca Steenkamp was born on the 19th of August in 1983 in Cape Town, South Africa. Her parents are Barry and June Steenkamp. Her dad was a horse trainer and when she when Riva was young, her family relocated to Port Elizabeth, which is along the coast of South Africa.

16:14 When I look it up, it's beautiful. It's really lovely. She spent the rest of her youth there and ended up finishing off her schooling there. Yep. When she was growing up, she was a pretty avid horse rider herself. I mean, given the fact that her dad was a horse trainer, I guess you grow up in that environment. That's something that, you know, she developed a real passion for. Yeah. And when she was in her early 20s, she actually suffered a really severe fall from a horse. She broke her back at the time and she had to undergo like really intensive rehabilitation to get herself even.

16:47 Walking again to walk again, that kind. Of stuff, yeah. I think that shows that, you know, I think that would develop a resilience in a person that that's something that would change a life. And for her, I guess it could go both ways, but for her it definitely meant she put her mind to something and she wanted to get back walking and get back to. All the other level of doing gratitude for life and what that can bring, I guess like in terms of, yeah, putting your mind something and sticking at it, but also this idea of life short, like live it to the most, yeah.

17:22 Yes, I think you're absolutely right. Yeah, when she was 14, so this was before she had this fall, but when she was 14, she began modeling. Her parents were quite strict and they education was 100% paramount to them, but they allowed her to continue modeling and, well, start modeling and building a career in that arena, provided her schooling didn't drop off. Yeah. Because she was a really intelligent, really intelligent young woman. Yeah. So she after she finished school at Saint Dominic's Primary School, she enrolled at the University of Port Elizabeth, which is now called the Nelson Mandela Metropolitan University.

18:03 And she actually graduated with a bachelor, Bachelor of laws degree in 2005. So I think that says a lot about her intelligence. She's incredibly intelligent. Yeah, yeah. And her dedication, I mean, that's not an easy degree to obtain, no. But yeah, she was, she was amazing. She worked as a paralegal after finishing, you know, actually while she was at university, she was working as a paralegal and then continued that on after school after finishing university. But her modelling career at that time really started to take off.

18:34 Can you imagine being the person who, you know, like you can, you've got this option in life where you can either be a lawyer or have it be a successful model. I mean, there's being a model and then there's a successful model, you know, like kind of thing. And being able to have the jobs that she ended up with. Yeah. And the level of modelling that she was doing, I mean, that's just incredible to have been that well-rounded, I think in everything. But also when I was looking at photos of her doing this, Jesus, she was stunning, stunning to the point of every photo I looked at her.

19:04 She had minimal makeup. And I love that she was such a natural beauty. But you could really, you can see the light coming through from the internally, I think like there was beauty within like not just externally, I mean. Yeah, I know what you mean. She had it it. Yes, and like just this natural, completely natural, breathtaking beauty. She was stunning. She had amazing hair too, Yes. Like really good hair. I mean, she was, she just literally is like this. I say, well, sorry, amazingly talented, intelligent person academically, but obviously someone who could attract people and draw, you know, to her, you know, to to, you know, engage with people.

19:49 And also then through her modelling as well, that and then presenting and things that she did as well. She did a lot of moved into that realm as well. So incredible. Yeah, she's incredible. So her career. As I said, started to take off a little bit after she finished university and that basically meant that she needed to move to Johannesburg in South Africa in order to really take advantage of all of the opportunities like where she was living. There wasn't a huge amount of scope there. So she moved to to the main city and this was sort of in the early 2000 and 10s.

20:22 By this stage she was a cover model she worked for, she appeared in FHM magazine. She became the very first face of Avon in South Africa. Do you remember Ding Dong Avon calling my mum's? One of my mum's friends was an Avon lady. Yeah. And she used to have this basket of samples, and on the odd occasion she'd like, she must have let her customers and stuff have the samples for a few days. And sometimes she'd leave the basket at our house. Yeah. And I'd get to, like, try all of the things. Oh, my God.

20:54 It was like heaven. It was like heaven. Oh, gosh. So she also then worked as a live presenter for Fashion TV in South Africa. And she's starred in so many TV commercials, like, heaps and heaps. She was the kind of person that brands wanted to represent them. Yeah, you know, yeah. Because of her beauty and and as you said, she had that sort of it factor. She definitely did. She was in the process of transitioning into a bit of a reality TV stream and not long before all of the rest of this took place that we'll be talking about in a minute.

21:29 And she landed a role as a celebrity contestant on Season 5 of the reality TV show Tropica Island of Treasure. It was set in Jamaica, so she got to go there and and film a season of that. And it's it was released I think a couple of days after she passed away. So it was just. Yeah, she was sort of really like her career was like really taking off in another realm or like kind of another. Factor, she was kind of going to that. Next level, wasn't it? Yeah, Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I mean. Really I think sad in this because she gets known a little bit as a celebrity girlfriend when actually she had her own career in her own right to being in that celebrity world.

22:10 I think you're so right and that's why I felt like it was really important to start with her because I think a lot of her achievements and accomplishments go unnoted in a lot of a lot of the things I've read don't even mention that she had a degree or you know, the way that she started. I, I think, you know, she, she was a whole person and just because her boyfriend was a celebrity, I mean, she was too. She was. And not on the world stage like he was. But she was getting to that. That's what I feel like if there was, if there was more time for her, that that's she would have ended up there.

22:43 Yeah, I can. Really. Yep, see that that way, which is. Just shit. Yeah, Really, really shit. I'm gonna start now with a bit of background on Oscar Pistorius. So Oscar Leonard Karl Pistorius was born on the 22nd of November in 1986 in Stanton, Johannesburg, South Africa. His parents are Henker and Sheila Pistorius. He was the middle child of three siblings. Now he also grew up in an incredibly strict family. They were very, I've heard them described as a very prominent family known within a lot of social circles in South Africa.

23:24 Yes. So Oscar was born with a rare congenital condition. It was called fibula hemimelea, which basically means that he was born without the fibula, which is the outer narrow bone in the. Lower leg, long bone of the leg. Yeah, and he also was missing certain parts of his feet. So his parents were given the option of either they could do reconstructive surgery, which would potentially take multiple surgeries when he was young. And then as he grew, he would have to continue to have surgeries until he was fully grown.

23:56 The other option was to amputate his legs just below the knee and in which case he could, you know, get prosthetic straight away and just learn to live like that right from a from a very young age. So they made, it would have been a really tough decision, but they made the decision when he was 11 months of age to amputate his legs below the knee. He then a few months later got his first prosthetic peg legs. I think by the age of 17 months or something he was walking. On prosthetics, yeah, absolutely phenomenal.

24:26 I mean, I guess if you grow up that way and and look, Oscar, when he's interviewed about this, he says that he he knows no different and his parents certainly didn't treat him like he was anything different because of. He was quoted as saying, like, you know, for having what he'd gone through in terms of, you know, having amputated legs. He had the most typical, usual childhood. So much so that he played all the sports that everyone else played, like rugby, swimming. Yeah, his parents treated him no differently.

24:53 He was to, you know, do what everyone else was doing, no questions asked. I think he also has mentioned in several interviews that I've been listening to that his parents had this like sort of no excuses policy in the house. So they they weren't allowed to say no, I can't. Yeah, They had to try their best at whatever it was that they were doing and give it their all. And so that probably put him in pretty good stead for, you know, the trajectory of his career and how that. Yeah. I should also mention too, that with this surgery, when he had his legs amputated, the surgeons were able to remove the heel from his foot that he did have and be able to attach that to the base of his the amputation so that he was able to then walk on the stumps of his amputation without pain and things.

25:39 So there was still that padding of like what would be the bottom of your foot being able to be used as well. So he had the options then of being able to walk without prosthetics and or with prosthetics, obviously not as as easily without them. Potentially it would be more awkward I guess, but still without pain and be able to manage that. Yeah, I we'll get to what I think about that later, about walking on his stumps, I mean. Yeah, Yeah. That's why I thought it's very important. We mentioned very impossible agree that he can do that, yes.

26:10 So apparently he was a really energetic child and throughout his school time he would always compete with able bodied peers. He never played like rugby and stuff like that. It wasn't like it was, you know, oh play tennis where it's non contact or something. He did play tennis. He probably would have as well in all of it, but I mean very much contact. Sports were boxing and stuff like that and yeah, playing like he'd do boxing and, you know, other things that you think you would need a fair bit of, you know, movement and dexterity for.

26:39 Yeah. But yeah, he, he was amazing. So personally, he had a little bit of a tragic childhood. He when he was young, his parents divorced and his dad was very, very strict. And look, there's not a lot out there to sort of say exactly what was going on in the household. But just reading between the lines, I just wonder whether there was a bit of maybe verbal abuse going on. I think he was a really hard man. You can certainly see interviews with him now since all of this has come out in the media. He's he's given interviews, he's seen in the court when all of this was going through.

27:19 And maybe he's softened a little bit in his old age, I don't know. But I guess the children were given the option of who they wanted to live with after the divorce and they all chose to live with their mom, unfortunately. When in 2002, when Oscar was only 15 years of age, his mother passed away. So she had a hysterectomy and they gave her some pain medication that he she had a severe allergic reaction to and she passed away. So the kids then obviously, I mean, what a what an absolutely tragic thing to happen at such a pivotal time in your life.

27:56 Yeah. They then were set, like obviously went to live with their dad. And look, I just think, I can't even imagine what that would have been like for him and his siblings. No, that was really, really tragic. And from what you sort of get from what I've read, it really did hit him hard. And I'm not probably his siblings equally. I'm not, you know, but you unfortunately hear about Oscar in terms of that. Yeah. Yeah. He did take it really, really badly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, as you would. Yeah. So in 2003, so by this stage it was a year after his mother had passed away, he was 16 years of age and he suffered a really severe injury when he was playing rugby.

28:38 It shattered part of his knee. Now, obviously he needed the movement in his knee to be able to operate his prosthetics. And so it was sort of put to him that he probably shouldn't ever play rugby again. And then as part of the rehabilitation, coming back from this really severe injury, part of what he could do to sort of build some strength back up in his knee was to start running. And he found that he had quite the knack for it. And it was something that he just kind of really naturally took to his, like, a little little child prodigy at this point.

29:15 Yeah, in terms of running. And it wasn't anything he'd done before. He hadn't trained. For not for running, like I mean, obviously running in other sports and always been noted as being, you know, pretty quick, but then to actually right do it as a you know, focus sport is a very different thing too, though he. Competed at the Junior championships in 2004, so it was only a couple of months after he began training. Anyone. Yeah. Won everything. Yeah, won everything with this. I've watched a few of his races, like an early races particularly like that I went back to that like, Oh my God, he didn't win.

29:43 He absolutely killed it. Like he was, he was winning by like lapping people basically. So he competed in like 100 meter, 200 and 400 meter. 400 meter was his absolute jam though, too. Like so he would in in that he would literally lap people. Yeah. Which is insane. Yeah, crazy. And we're talking able bodied as well as other disabled bodied people. So equally as much, yeah. He was incredible. Yeah. So because of this, so he around this time, people in South Africa certainly were taking notice of him.

30:13 He was obviously doing something amazing and he it was coming up for the Olympics and Paralympics and he tried out for the 2004 Athens Paralympics. He was only 17 years old at the time. They nicknamed him from that Olympics on with the Blade Runner because he had these carbon fiber sort of J shaped prosthetics that he would use when he was running. They were called the Flex Foot Cheetah. He got a bronze medal in 100 meters and a gold medal in the 200 meters at the Athens Paralympics. And one of the commentators in one of his races said he's the fastest man on no legs, so.

30:55 Funnily enough, he did become the 22nd fastest man on the planet, and that is. Able bodied and. Not any man running whatever, like any person running 22nd fastest in the world. That I mean, someone who is AW, double amputee. Holy cow. Yeah, insane. Insane, absolutely insane, yeah. He then continued his training and competing and he competed in the 2008 Beijing Paralympics where he. This was his year. He just got gold into it, everything he went for. So as you said, the 102 hundred and 400 gold medals in all of that.

31:33 So because he was sort of really. He was winning so easily. So easily and and it was like, if you watch some of the Beijing, Beijing Olympics, you're like, oh, he was winning by like 100 Peters in some instances. It was just insane, yes. So he decided that he wanted to not just dominate para. Yeah. He wanted to move into the mainstream, yeah. And wanted to compete at the able bodied Summer Olympics. Yeah. In order to do this, he had to apply through the International Association of Athletics Federation's the I Double AF.

32:13 They initially banned him from mainstream competitions because they felt that there were several reasons. They felt that his blades gave him an unfair advantage, that because he didn't have lower limbs, that he was lighter. And somehow therefore that made him would make him quicker. Yeah. They also, I guess they didn't really understand the technology of his prosthetics because they thought that the the shape of the prosthetics would give him like a bit of a spring of spring, even though. So upon appeal, because Oscar was like, no, no, no, yeah, this is none of this is actually true.

32:53 He took it to the Court of Arbitration for Sport and they did all of the actual bio mechanical research into was this an advantage or wasn't it because they wanted it to be fair too? Yes, which? Is totally fair, I get it. And. He probably wanted it to be fair so that when he wins, it's a legitimate win. No one can question it. Nobody can question it. Yeah. And they did. So he ended up, he missed out qualifying for the able bodied Beijing Olympics, but he's then set his sights on the London 2012 Olympics.

33:24 And he'd been given the green light to be able to compete. Yeah, which he did. So he actually really in the lead up to the 2012 London Olympics, he really started to gain notoriety internationally because people are looking at this Paralympic runner who's now moving into the mainstream. At the 2011 World Championships in South Korea, he won a silver medal as part of South Africa's 4 by 400 relay team. Now that really was the thing that I think captured global attention. And then I think, you know, the media were following his story then all the way through to the 2012, the London 2012 Olympics where he made history by becoming the first double amputee to compete in the Olympic Games.

34:10 He ran in the individual 400. He I think he got to the semi finals and then in the 4 by 400 they got a silver medal, I believe. So he was by the end of this campaign, he was a Global Icon. Like I remember, I remember it. I mean, it's not that long ago really when you. It's really not, no. He was named Time magazine's one of the top 100 most influential people, along with all of the fame and notoriety that he got from, you know, from being this sort of Global Icon. Now, he had also attracted a huge amount of sponsorships, yes.

34:48 And so he had sponsorships with Nike, Oakley, like so many of watch brands. Just said that Oakley, when I fully remember the Oakley ad now that I'm like thinking, yeah, Oh my God, yeah, yeah. The Blade Runner sunglass. Yes, yes, I remember it so. Distinctly, yeah. Yep. And so he ended up amassing quite an income and quite a fortune at this time. He was you know, this was multi $1,000,000 deals that he was doing over over the course of these years. Yes. So he basically, I think at the time that all of the incident, I think he was worth something like maybe almost 10 million U.S. dollars.

35:29 Yeah, I feel like you might be right. I feel like I've read that. Yeah. It's. It was a considerable, you know, sort of net worth. Yeah. All right. So how did Reeva and Oscar meet? Now there's a little. Have you did you find there were like a couple of different stories? Slightly different stories, but also like when I looked into this too, I was floored by the fact of like how short their relationship was. Because the way I guess for us on the outside of all this, at the time when it was coming through the media, it was Reeva Steenkamp, Oscar Pistorius's girlfriend.

35:59 You know, like that's all you knew of it. So you kind of had this assumption of. It had been going on a while. Girlfriend, it wasn't as long term as we all, I think, perceived it as at the time. I'm fairly sure that most people would think the same way, yeah. I definitely did until I until we were looking into this. Yeah. So he basically the first public outing they had was their first date. Yeah, yeah. They'd literally, they'd met at a few places and both were, had, I think, significant others at the time when they hadn't first met and, you know, more casually.

36:28 But Oscar had eyed her off and being like, she's amazing. And so, yeah, he called her because he had needed a date at the last minute here. I think he's actually broke off with his girlfriend or something. Yeah, at the time. And then he went on. Crap, I need a date for this event. Yeah. Was it the sports something or some sports awards? Things the South African Sports Awards so that during that day, though, he'd been at an event for a car dealership where he'd bought like his, you know, luxury McLaren or whatever it was some some like super lux car that he'd bought.

37:01 Yeah. And Reeva just happened to be at this event as well. That's right. And the person who organized the event, Justin Davares, knew both of them independently of each other, which is why he invited them both to the event. Yeah. And I think this Justin knew that Oscar was going to this event that night and and that he'd recently broken up with his girlfriend and was like, oh, why don't you take Reba knowing that Oscar sort of, you know, liked the look of Aaron? Yeah. So that's kind of how that came about.

37:31 Yeah, yeah. So they walked the red carpet of that event as their first date. Like it's a bit weird. And it's also like, you can see red carpet footage from that night. They both get kind of interviewed on the red carpet. It's a bit awful. It's a bit awkward, but also like at one stage Reeve was being interviewed and they were interviewing her about her stuff that was going on for her. And she kind of had she, I think to her credit was like, but tonight I'm here for Oscar, like and she flipped it back to the the light being on him, which I think as you know, so she didn't have to do that.

38:03 She could have promoted herself at the time and she didn't. She answered the question. I'm not to say she dismissed them entirely, but she then flipped it back to kind of go, but I'm here tonight for Oscar and like, it's about him tonight. And yeah, so it was really interesting. Yeah. But yeah, they pretty much from that night on. Who? It was fast and furious. Yeah, which apparently Oscar was known for. Yeah, he was known for meeting women and really, well, use the words love bombing. Really over the top like that actually saw a really interesting interview with him go which it was being presented as if this was like, you know, Oscar what a great guy, which I just saw what he said I found quite revolting.

38:46 OK, So what it was was he, he was saying that he was in the interview, he was saying how some kids are a bit unsure about him when he's on his blades, right. And so, and kids will ask questions like, because they're like kids being kids and he will quite often like joke with them and everything and try and give him a scare and go, you know, they'll say like, oh, how did you lose your legs? Oh, shark bot bit me or, you know, a tiger, you know, funny haha. And he goes unless their mum's nearby and she's good looking.

39:11 And then I'll tell them like, you have to eat your vegetables like, otherwise you'll lose your legs, you know, just, you know, And he like kind of cheekily like, and I'm like. If we didn't know, if we didn't know what we know, maybe you'd be like, oh, cute. Cute, but like he's something like I think 2324 in this interview. Like, I mean, he's younger than I thought too to be. Honest with all this. Again, that was something else. I just assumed of him being older as well. But yeah, he was like 2324 saying this that I just kind of go, why are you hitting on mums?

39:39 Like, do you know what I mean at that age, Like, you know, and why are you commenting about? Maybe he's very audience because he he was very good looking. He was very. Looking absolutely, but just kind of got an you just get this this idea of him being a little bit like someone who I don't know oh good women and like kind of had an opinion of women that you know they were his to flirt with and do what he wanted. I don't know, I just kind of got a vibe that I'm like, I'll. Yeah, OK, you got the ick.

40:05 Yeah, I did get the ick, yeah. Yeah. So I think as as we were saying that their relationship was very intense very quickly, Yeah. And it was only a few months in that everything kind of started to unravel. So let's get into it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. OK, so first of all, I'll give a bit of context about where Oscar was living and because I think it's, I think it's important as part of the story. So Oscar was living in a very affluent part of South Africa. Yeah. And in Johannesburg or in Pretoria, Sorry.

40:43 Yeah. And it was called this Silver Woods County estate. Now we know, I think everyone knows that crime in South Africa, especially at this time we're talking. It was just, it was a very interesting time, I guess in South Africa post apartheid. Yeah. And it was, it was a dangerous place to be. So if you were wealthy and you could afford it, you would live in one of these gated communities. Now again, you can go and have a look online and see what the actual fortress has looked like. Fortress, I love that you called it that it.

41:19 Is literally concrete walls with 240 Volt like almost prison razor wire on the top to deter people from getting in. Now he lived in in one of these really sort of one of. These states. Yeah, yeah. It had a 24 hour man security gate, biometric access. So you couldn't just like steal someone's gate card to get in. It was actually biometric access, foot patrols by armed guards. They had golf carts that would go around and literally patrol the gated community 24 hours a day. A bit of context about South Africa.

42:00 In 2013, which is the year that all of this takes place, there were 45 to 47 murders per day per day in South Africa. The the next most common, the most common crimes that were reported were carjackings, robberies of businesses like shops being burgled and home invasions. And they were those 3 crimes were sky rocketing at the time. So it was something that S Africans, people who lived there were really cognizant of that these things were going on. Similar to, I guess in some ways, America, the gun laws there are were, I don't believe they've changed from my from memory that, you know, you could carry a, you know, a gallon and all these sorts of things.

42:54 So which I guess as Australians we find it's fine. I find that really hard to yeah, I get to get my head around. Actually do you want to talk now about the lead up, the two gun issues that? Yeah. You want to put that here? Yeah. So it's. Worth. I think it gives a context. Because this I think, I think we need to sort of say like building up, obviously with this being the context of what Oscar was living in that, you know, yes, but everyone, this was a, you know, anyone could have time. Yeah, perfect.

43:18 Oscar became quite paranoid around crime. And so he and he did, he was someone who was very much into guns and protecting himself. And I guess it's a celebrity. Yeah, I guess you'd do even higher level of like thinking people would be maybe target out. But but he seemed to have a whole nother level of paranoia around that. And I say that from his friends have commented on that. The idea of security was really heightened to him. And I think it's worth noting, like, one of his mates was a really famous boxer.

43:51 And one of the incidents, he was actually sort of in the vicinity. Well, he was with him at the time. Yeah. And he was just as well known at the time of this incident as Oscar. And he even says like that wasn't he wasn't. He didn't have the same level of. No, no, yeah, yeah. So it was something that Oscar was particularly sensitive to, I suppose. So one of the incidents where there was a gun issue in all prior to the incident that happened in 2013, the murder that happened in 2013, he was at a dinner with a group of mates, including this boxer, a couple of other friends, and somebody handed him a pistol under the table, a handgun, sorry, under the table.

44:35 And he accidentally shot it into the marble floor of the restaurant that they were in, right? It grazed the toe of his mate who was sitting next to him. Apparently there was blood everywhere. Like he's so lucky he didn't shoot his toe off. It would have because of the look. Again, you and I are not gun people, but the calibre of the gun or something meant that it would have blown his toe off, possibly blown his foot off. The millimetre the other way. Like, kind of literally. And then because Oscar was notoriety, you know, he was becoming really well known at this time.

45:10 He said to his friend, oh, you've got to take the blame for this. Like, you take it. You take it. Yeah. And at the time, his friend was like, oh, yeah, OK. I mean, it was an accident. But then why two things? Why are you handing someone a gun under a table? Like what the fuck is going? On to like, yeah, what are you talking about? I would imagine that if it's like the United States, where if you have a license to carry, especially a concealed weapon, there's rules around that. Like you can't just go and bloody, you know, wave it around, wave it around or anything like that.

45:41 It has to be in a proper holster and has to have the safety on and all of that. What the fuck's going on there? Yeah, and who's handing someone a gun and going like you, you having a gun registered to you is different is one thing, you know, kind of thing and having it on you, but passing that to someone else like that's and then no, I don't know. I just find it all really like weird culture between like even mates of what was going on like there. That just seems odd. Yeah Oscar did have 1 pistol of his own and the other incident happened and it was with his own own gun.

46:11 Yeah, and he was driving with a girlfriend and ex-girlfriend now at the time. At the time was his girlfriend, Yeah. And did they have a fight or something? Like that. I just think he was driving too fast or something. I'm not sure. But no 'cause the cops pulled him over. Yeah, yeah. I don't know what he what they got pulled over for, though. When I think about it now, I. Don't know. Either he got pulled over, but he wasn't happy with what he'd been pulled over for. He was very disgruntled around what the police officer had pulled him over for.

46:38 But again, I find that just arrogance of like who do you know who I am kind of a bit. So anyway, it did finish what the cop wanted to speak to him about. Cop left and in anger he has fired his gun out, the sunroof of his car hitting a sign like just yeah, just purely out of. Anger his girlfriend at the time she's spoken about the incident and she was terrified like absolutely because she's like he just lost control like he just. Snapped. He snapped. Crazy. Yeah, scary. Really, really scary. Absolutely.

47:18 The other thing that was going on in South Africa at the time is there was an absolute epidemic of violence against women, yes, and domestic violence. And it was something that culturally, I think, you know, the police and the authorities were trying to start to shift. I mean, there was definite recognition of the fact that it wasn't a really serious issue within South Africa at the time. Reeva had had a previous boyfriend who she had had some domestic violence within that relationship. And from that she had then become a bit of a spokesperson for domestic violence with it being such an epidemic at the at the time.

47:54 And to actually the day of this occurring, she had been an event supporting, you know, Victor Charity and everything around domestic domestic violence. So yeah. In 2013, which was the year that this all took place, a woman was killed by an intimate partner in South Africa roughly every 8 hours. The sexual assault statistics were just beyond comprehension, honestly. I think they still are today, to be honest. It's it's horrendous, yeah. Oh, just absolutely, absolutely horrible. Yeah. OK, so Oscar lived at 286 Bushwillow St. within this Silver Water compound.

48:40 The house was incredibly luxurious. It was three stories. It was a villa, and it was quite spacious. It was quite minimalist in terms of the decor, which I guess, you know, it looked really modern when you look at photos. Yeah, certainly back in the day it would have been an incredibly modern home. I think it had four bedrooms maybe. And the master bedroom was located on the upper floor, on the top floor. OK. So to give a bit of context about the layout of the room, which I think kind of needs to needs to be said.

49:15 Yeah, the master bedroom LED directly into a long open plan master bathroom. Yeah. And then there was a shower room. So like, it was basically a pretty, yeah, it was a floor to ceiling shower door that you would open and go into a completely enclosed shower room. Next door to that on the left was a toilet room where there's just a toilet. There was a magazine rack in there because who doesn't need a good read when you're, you know, doing your poos. And but basically as you walk into the toilet room, the toilet is on the left wall facing like so if you if you walk into the toilet room, you would have to turn left and back on, sorry, right and back onto the toilet, if that makes sense.

50:01 So it wasn't directly as you open the door straight in. Yeah, Yeah. That kind of will come into come into play. It was a tiny room. It was 1.4 meters by 1.2 meters, I think. So it was tiny and all it had was a toilet. Toilet. Yeah. That's it. Yeah. There was a window in the toilet cubicle that opened to the outside and the at the time Oscar was doing some renovations to the house. There was just a few upgrades that he was doing and a few maintenance things. There was a ladder that was left. So basically where the where the window was for the toilet, for the toilet, sorry.

50:37 There was like a little roof sort of just down below it and there was a ladder that kind of went up onto that roof that one of the contractors had left there overnight. Yep. OK, so that sort of sets a bit of the scene. So we should say so Oscar and Reeva have been dating for three months at this point. And I don't believe it was official official that she'd moved in, but she'd been living in the house basically for about 3 days or three evenings at this point, consistently staying overnight. That's right.

51:11 So I don't know that they were living living together though they. Weren't because the only reason I say that is because I know she came with a fresh bag that night. Yeah, so she must have gone home, changed over her clothes or whatever and brought them like a fresh bag of clothes to his place for that night. Yeah. So this is on the 13th of February in.

51:33 Yeah, the 14th of Feb. So the the night of the 13th. Night of the 13th. Yeah, the 14th. So it's all Valentine's Day. Valentine's Day The night before Valentine's Day. So they've decided to obviously spend the night together. And they had plans for the following day for Valentine's Day. Yeah, apparently Oscar had bought her a bracelet for Valentine's Day and they were going to go and pick that up and they had a few other bits and bobs planned. So there were definitely plans and things that they were they were looking to do the following day and spend the day together.

52:00 Yeah. OK, so Reeva comes over and the timing of this is not 100% set in stone. And it's really frustrating because I think some, some of, and even some of the phone calls that happen and all of that, there's, there's conjecture around it. The reason for the phone calls is because there were several phones at play. But yeah, it's, it's really hard to get an exact timeline. And I, I wish that we could because I think it would give a little bit more clarity. Like I'm even talking about when they ate dinner.

52:39 Yeah, you know, there's, there's even conjecture around that. Yes. So, all right, let's, let's get into it. Between 6:00 and 7:00, Riva arrives at Oscar's home and with the plans to spend a night, she'd brought a fresh bag of clothes Somewhere between 8:00 PM and 10:00 PM, the couple eats dinner. Now, this is a point of contention for the prosecution because of the amount of undigested food that was found in Reeva's system at the time. But I will get to that when we kind of when we kind of get to talking, talking a bit later.

53:19 Yeah. Oscar's recount of the night is that at 10:00, they go off to bed, go off to the master bedroom. Reeva is doing yoga exercises, and Oscar was watching TV. He'd taken his prosthetic legs off because he never slept in them. Fine, I'm sure it would be uncomfortable to sleep with plastic things hanging off the end of your legs. According to him, they fall asleep shortly after. Now, it's also worth noting that it was a really, really, really hot night. Yeah. And part of the renovations to Oscar's house meant that that particular night, they didn't have air conditioning.

53:58 Oh, wow. So it was apparently was incredibly humid as well. So much so that Oscar had opened the door to the balcony that came off the master bed, and he had two fans. 1A tripod fan, 1A pedestal fan. He'd put them both sort of on the balcony to blow fresh air into the room. Yep. OK. Right. Yep. Sitting the scene there. Yeah, Yep. Apparently he was not a great sleeper and anything would disrupt him. He didn't like light, he didn't like sound, he liked pitch black and anyway, and also it was like oppressively hot.

54:35 According to him, he's fallen asleep and then he wakes up because he's hot and what he decides is it's too hot outside. So he's going to he on his stumps, goes over to the balcony, brings the fans inside and closes the balcony door and closes the blinds across the balcony. He then hears something, or so he so he thinks, right, So he thinks he's hearing something coming from the. Bathroom and it's pitch black. And it's pitch black now because he's closed the blinds and all of that. He takes his gun, which he keeps under his mattress, walks on his stumps to the bathroom where he can hear.

55:28 Well, there's 22 versions of events from him. Yes. First version of events is that he heard a window opening. The window opening? Yeah. The second version of events is that he just heard somebody in the toilet room. Yeah, he says. He whispered to Reeva at that point. Call the. Playlist OK. Yeah. Then he says he doesn't even remember really doing this, but all of a sudden he shoots into the toilet door 4 times. Now. Again, the cadence of this is interesting because according to the prosecution and to the police, it's four fairly spaced out shots.

56:21 Yeah, not Bang Bang, Bang, Bang. It's not Bang Bang Bang Bang. No, it's Bang, Bang, Bang, Bang again. This will come into come into play a bit later. Yeah. He then says that he goes over to the bed. He said he realized then after shooting Oh Reeva. Like he thinks about Reeva and so then goes to the bedroom to check on her. Well, to rouse or to which I mean, apparently the gun, these this particular gun, which I've got it written down. I'll, I'll have a look what it is in a SEC. But this particular gun and it had hollow point bullets.

57:04 No Talon, Talon bullets, was it? And they've they're evil. Have you seen what happens when they get shot? They kind of like they become. Claws, they become talons. I mean, yeah, there's plenty of stuff online you can see, like people comparing what one of these bullets will do and what a regular bullet will do and the way that it curls back on itself and it will RIP like flesh, flesh. So it goes in similar to any other bullet, but the external wound of what comes out the other side, it literally rips your insides out with it.

57:36 It they are. Why anyone would put these in a gun, I don't understand. I do not understand why you. Would for maximum destruction like why else? Would you use that? What's wrong with another bullet like I just to make it even worse for whoever you've shot and killed. I don't know. It's just that they. I can't understand that stuff. I'm so anti that sort of thing. I can't understand it. But yeah, these things like rip your insides out with it as it claws it makes this claw in the back of the bullet as it comes out.

58:05 It's awful. Yeah, OK. But yeah. So he goes to the side of the bed to check Riva, to which he discovers obviously she's not there. So now it's still pitch black, so he reckons he's like patting the bed to kind. Of see if she's there, but then he's so then he's like Oh my God. He realizes that could be Riva in the bathroom, to which he then grabs a because the door of the toilet is locked. From the inside, yeah. Yeah, so he grabs his cricket bat, which is nearby as well and starts to hit and try to sorry, puts his prosthetic legs on first before doing that sorry because he also tries to kick the door in using his prosthetics, trying to kick the door in which when that doesn't work, he then gets the cricket bat and starts bashing the door with the cricket bat to try and get in to the bathroom to the toilet.

59:00 So he finally finds that the door, he can get the door open to which he finds them. Think. He like, bashes a hole in it and can reach through and unlock it. Yeah. And he finds Reeva barely, barely alive. Yes. She's been shot 3 times. So three of those 4 bullets hit her. Apparently her arm was like just destroyed. 1 hitter in the hip and then one in the one in the head. Yeah.

59:29 He this is this, this is where there's a little bit of conjecture as well about what he does next. So his account, I think is that he calls his neighbor who's a doctor, yeah, to come over. Then he calls the ambulance and then he calls the estate security. Well, I believe he rings like, well, their version of Triple O kind of thing, yes. And it's not, it's like there's something wrong with it. It's like, yeah, it was down or something, which blows my mind. Which has been like can be corroborated by the calls out kind of thing.

1:00:09 So and I think that is when he calls security. OK, so then for them to alert them and then he tries the triple O version again and gets through. OK. It's worth noting here though. Like I don't know, I think this sounds like it's pretty standard unfortunately. But the ambulance took a long time. The police took over 25 minutes to get on site. That sounds like insanity. Like just that's all. I mean he's living in a built up area. Yeah, like, you know, it's not like it's in the middle of nowhere. No, I mean, to me, if I'm thinking about living in the city of like Melbourne, you call the police, call police in central sort of in that, you know, built up area kind of level of stuff, you'd find that cops would get there very quickly.

1:00:58 Especially if it was a murder. A murder, Well, someone's died, yes. Or dying. Dying, at least. Stephen like so the Doctor Who lives next door, or very close, anyway. He's the first to arrive on scene. Yeah. And by this stage, Oscar had actually carried Reeva downstairs. Downstairs to Oscar, carrying her down the. Stairs. Yeah. And so he's trying to provide first aid now. He said that she was literally barely hanging on to life at the time. Her breath was incredibly shallow. He couldn't really feel much of A pulse.

1:01:32 And it wasn't until the ambulance got there that she was pronounced dead. But he's like, I think his account of it basically is that she passed away not long after he and he brought his daughter. Did he the doctor? I feel like you might be right with that Someone with. Him. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, yeah, at this stage, she's, you know, she's now deceased in the home. Once the police arrive there, they they do start to try and get a bit of a story from Oscar. Now the first thing he says to them is now he's got blood all over him because when he finds Reeva on the toilet, slumped over, almost deceased, he's then carried her body down the stairs.

1:02:17 He is covered in her blood. His hands are covered in blood. Yeah. And he says to the police, can you just take photos of my hands so that I can go and wash them? I can't stand the smell. It's making me feel sick. They do that. He goes and washes his hands. He starts to tell them the story. And halfway through it, he's like, I need to go and have a shower. I I need to get these clothes off me. And they do allow him to do that. You can see photos that they took prior to him taking a shower. You can see the blood spatter all over his prosthetics, over his clothes, over just everywhere.

1:02:53 There's just blood everywhere. It's, it's the the photos are horrific. So if you want to go and look at them, yeah, if you want to go and look at them, just be aware that they are absolutely horrific. But his first account to the police is that, well, apparently at about 2:20 AM, the regular patrol of the security guard came past his house, noted nothing, nothing untoward between 3:00 and 3:10 AM. This is where the story kind of deviates. Yeah. So Pistorius says that he wakes up to the heat, as we said that Reeva was awake and said to him, can't you sleep, Bubba?

1:03:31 And he gets up, brings the fans in, closes the sliding doors, and obviously that plunges the room Into Darkness. And then the rest of the story happens the way the way that we said, According to him, the prosecution, I guess their case at this point is that he they think that there's been a fight between the two of them, between Reeva and Oscar. It's escalated. Reeva is absolutely terrified because she what they find when they go and investigate that little toilet room is her mobile phone's in there with her.

1:04:04 And the toilet sits down. The toilet sits down. She so she was sitting on top of the toilet essentially. Yeah, she was partially dressed. So now if this has happened at it happened between 3:00 and 3:10 AM and this, we know this because neighbors heard the gunshots and reported called police, reported times, all of that sort of stuff. They she was partially dressed. The top half of her was in clothes in a bra. You don't wear clothes in a bra to bed, do you? No. The other thing was found was at the bottom of that window in the bathroom was a pair of jeans, oddly enough.

1:04:49 I thought the jeans were in the room. Like, they would be out the window. So is there an inference there that she was trying to escape, trying to escape and like, threw her pants out kind of going. I'll put them on when I get out of here because I need to get out of here. Like, you know, getting dressed, terrified, terrified, getting out of that room. Oh. My God. I find that a really interesting bit of evidence. Isn't it? There's so many interesting bits of evidence, like I just think if you're, I mean, if I go to the toilet in the middle of the night, I don't take my phone.

1:05:23 But no, I mean, I have kids and I often take my phone to the toilet, but not in the middle of the night, no. But I can maybe come at it, maybe locking it, but locking the door? No, I find IP with the door open. Yeah, in the middle of the night. Exactly. Yeah, because you want some sort of light as to what you're doing. Yeah, that's the only thing that. I kind of could come out with her bringing the. Phone for. The torch for the. Torch, absolutely. That's the only thing I could think of too, but locking the door actually is my clincher.

1:05:53 Same. When do you lock the door for the toilet? I lock the door. The only time I ever lock the door for the toilet is if there's, I mean, someone else's home and there's other people that you don't know or whatever. Yeah, other people that are, Yeah. Like, you know what I mean. You're at a party at someone's house kind of scenario is what in my mind I'm thinking like, you know, I don't lock the door when I use your bathroom. I don't lock the door in my own house when I go to the toilet. Like. And yeah, the only time I can think of that is when, like, if I had, say, a tradie working in my home or something.

1:06:19 Yeah, I might lock the door when I go to the toilet then. Yeah. Just to avoid embarrassment, nothing else. Yeah. The other person maybe ever more than me.

1:06:30 Yeah. Yeah. Like I can't imagine a a three month in relationship locking the door. I don't know, that didn't make sense to me other than trying to get away from someone and protecting yourself. Yeah. Yeah, Oh. God, it's just absolutely, just absolutely horrific. The the police do read Oscar his rights at the scene and they do arrest him immediately. I mean, this is a little bit awful because I find this really interesting. The one of the police officers and we can get into one of them a little bit more.

1:07:06 But he one of the detectives was quoted as saying to Vanity Fair that he 100% just believed he was guilty of he murdered her from the moment he walked into the scene to a whole much weight in that, in that you can't make immediate assumptions of a police officer. I think that's terrible of a police officer to do. The police officer need to go in there with an open mind as to what could have taken place here. Do I agree with him? Possibly. But do you say that divinity fair? Just find that really.

1:07:37 Interesting choice. Yeah, I I get what you mean. I mean, yeah, I think I I know, I know who you're talking about. I just wonder whether, you know, he just wanted his his 15 minutes, didn't he? So look, I think, yeah, there's something to be said about that. But. And and he was kind of telling the world what they wanted to hear, I think at the time, too. So whether he actually thought that or not, I don't know. No, I think you would have to keep an open mind because the the reason I say that is because from the very get go, and that first statement that Oscar made his at the time, his story was pretty concise.

1:08:16 Yeah. He said what he did and it fit in terms of where things were at. There were things that needed to then be considered later. For example, if you are so concerned that an intruder is going to get into your house, why are you sleeping with your balcony door open? Yep. You know, like there's just so many things that a upon reflection and upon analysis, you think, OK, well, maybe. Well, so you might actually. Think that that became. I actually. I actually think that's what the argument was over.

1:08:50 About the door being open or closed or closed, Yeah, yeah. I actually think that's what the argument was over. OK. I think he would have been so paranoid where she was maybe like, it's so hot, we've got no air conditioning. Like just leave it open. Like, yeah. And I reckon he has got. Griever's mum has a different theory. Oh. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've read a bit about her but I haven't heard her theory. So so she did, I actually remember even watching this like at the time, but she did an episode of insight and which is like one of my favorite shows on SBS freaking with you me.

1:09:25 Oh my God, love it. So she did an episode of and it was about justice, basically like whether whether justice is served in certain situations. And they had parent in the same episode. They had parents from one of the men, young men killed in flight MH17 and they had lots of different people, but she was in it. And she based basically said that her theory of what happened and what I mean, she feels she knows this is that Reeva wanted to leave him. They there had been a lot of things in the lead up to this that really concerned her as a mom, and she didn't know the half of it until all of this came out.

1:10:11 And so she felt that Reeva was probably making a decision around this time that she kind of had enough. Something's obviously happened on that night that escalated to a point where she's then gone. I actually can't do this any, this is Reeva's mom's, you know, theory. I can't do this anymore. I'm leaving. And that's what got the fight going. I mean, yeah, see, I reckon it was probably the door started and then it became Reeva going like this is what we're arguing over. Like this is how aggressive you're getting I'm out.

1:10:42 Like, you know, either can it. It went from I went went from point A to there to that, you know, kind of level of I'm going to go like I'm getting out of here. Like I'm not going to stay here. It's you're too aggressive and I'm scared and yeah. In the investigation of all this, and once it went to court, all of their text messages between each other came out. And it was mostly through WhatsApp. But yeah, the messages between themselves came out. And one of the things, one of the things that Riva says in a message to him at some point is basically that, you know, he scares her.

1:11:16 I think I've got. The I've got the exact quote you've. Got it there. Grabbing them out. Where are we? Yeah, she says. I'm I'm scared of you sometimes and how you snap at me. And how you will react to me? And then she says, you have you've picked on me incessantly. She was. This was her responding to Oscar apparently becoming jealous at a social gathering and accusing her of flirting. Now not just that that I just find such. Disgusting. And she also made the, the statement around her, her being criticized all the time.

1:11:48 And she said the the quote was don't do this, don't do that. Like it's constant. So there was a number of yeah, text messages around that, that concept, that that idea. I mean, look, I have to say it's a three month long relationship and this is where you're at and your text messages. I mean, I understand that potentially like relationships can, you know, go on OverDrive and you can get deep quick. But. I was actually having reflection on this of like a three month relationship and I I had sort of a similar time frame relationship in my early 20s that I honestly couldn't even tell you his surname.

1:12:24 But I'm like, this is 3 months in and you're arguing like this? Like if like this is just him. No, no, no for me. Yeah, the defense basically said that, oh, this was just like normal banter between a couple. And I'm like, no, no, not three months in. No, she was, she was scared. She was worried for his behavior. Yeah, she actually even one of the text message she sent him was I can't be attacked by outsiders for dating you and be attacked by you. Oh my God. So clearly, because there were other people saying about the relationship already, they were saying this is not healthy and we're telling Reeva to get out.

1:13:00 He he was very jealous. I know she'd had a was it 2 days before her death? She'd had coffee with a male acquaintance. Like nothing was going on between them at all. He was just a friend of hers. Yeah. And Oscar found out and apparently he would, he would just flipped in a jealous rage. And that was two days before she died. So I'm like, was all this stuff building up? And yeah, it wouldn't have taken much then to potentially flip him over the edge to to what? What ended up happening? Exactly. I mean, it's definitely, look, the prosecution put forward these sorts of things.

1:13:33 The defence had another perspective and yeah, read these messages as being a normal relationship, but I don't know how you can. I honestly don't think it's normal in any relationship with a three months long or, you know, or 30 years long. Yeah, for someone to say that that I'm scared of you sometimes that is a giant red flag that says no one should be saying that about their partner at any point in their relationship. Never. I mean, no. So he there was clearly stuff going on in this relationship that, yeah, he was showing his aggressive nature.

1:14:05 And they look, there was other girl, another ex-girlfriend as well as the one who was in the car with him when he shot the sunroof. Yep. Another girlfriend came forward saying that he was, you know, aggressive in that relationship too. And it's why it ended. And they've been together for a long time. I think they've. Been together longer? Yeah, 14 or 15 months, something like. Yeah, like he's had lots of like, I guess in scheme of things, short term relationships, but he was young. I'm not not shaming that whatever, but I guessed.

1:14:35 What was, I think, time shorter this happened 27 he. Was like 26. 26 maybe, yeah. He. Yeah. So he wasn't he, you know, he was in his young years. Yeah, go do that. But I think these relationships were ending short term. Yeah. Because of his aggressive nature, not because of like him necessarily being, you know, putting to have multiple girlfriends or anything like that. Yes, Yeah. It was more the fact that it wasn't sticking because he love bombed and then he became aggressive and these women were like, Oh no, I'm out.

1:15:06 Yeah, Reeva was only 29 when she when she died too. I think that's definitely worth noting. Yeah, she was very young. Too Yeah oh gosh horrible. Absolutely so I guess the trial of the century comes after this doesn't it Yeah. So in 2014 we from March to September the trial went for it was so in South Africa there is no jury yeah system it is all all the trials are judge alone and then the judge appoints a couple of I guess the help. Advisors. They're called legal assessors. Legal, legal assessors and they can be either legal people or they can be community people and they're meant to be able to sort of bring expertise from like whatever topics are being discussed within that that.

1:15:54 Court case, Yeah. And help the judge come to her decisions. Yeah, which is an interesting system I find. Yeah, so the system moved to that after the apartheid? Yeah, it was during apartheid that they during apartheid, yeah, that they went to this abolished, they abolished juries because, well, because juries were completely made-up of white people in in the court system. Then they did abolish it all together. Instead of going, Oh no, we should open up to everyone having, you know, make this more fair for any defendant.

1:16:21 Instead of doing that, they went, Oh no, we'll go the other way and just get rid of having juries. Interestingly, though, the judge that presided over this case was a fame, a black female judge by the name of Judge Masipa. She was she she was a badass in the lead up to this. And as in, you know, her career was that of absolute, you know, stellar proportions. Really. Yeah, but it what what sort of came of it I find very interesting. Yeah, it's OK. So. The trial the. Trial, the trial. So we had the prosecution who was led by Jerry Nell, AKA the Pitbull, which in all of in everything, it's like the people.

1:17:07 There's the Pitbull that I think he probably called himself that. Oh. I totally reckon he called himself that.

1:17:14 Look, he was formidable, yeah, wasn't he? He did a really, really good job. I think he did. I definitely. I wouldn't want to have been on the other end of. Him oh God, no. He was quite aggressive. He was cross examinations of people. I'm like, you would not whether you're on his side or not, you wouldn't want to be on the end of that. No, just like absolutely shooting him. I'd be shooting myself. He didn't ask questions like his, his method was really interesting. He didn't really ask questions.

1:17:44 He kind of, I put it to you, yes, I put it to you that this happened and. Then you had to agree or disagree with him. Like, and if you disagreed with what he was saying, the fuck would you just get ripped to shreds? Yeah, but he really like tried to, I suppose, dismantle the character of the witnesses that were supporting Oscar Pistorius's case, but he really did a good job of that. Yeah, I thought. Yep, I agree. I agree. This was the first trial that was broadcast internationally. So we obviously had OJ Simpson prior to this, but that wasn't broadcast all around the world.

1:18:21 We got snippets of it through like through the carriers and stuff. Yeah, in the United States, whereas this was actually broadcast by nations worldwide. Yeah, which I remember watching it and stuff at the time. And so there's loads and loads of visuals and also videos of and what went on in the in the in the trial. So you jump online and see all of that stuff still to this day, obviously. The way that Mel wants to characterize Pistorius, I think he's funny. It's like he's this gun toting self obsessed narcissist who basically just wouldn't take responsibility for his volatile temper and just had literally got one good thing to say about him.

1:19:05 I can at least acknowledge his great achievements and his athletic ability. Didn't touch on that. Yeah, the defense was led by Barry Roo. So, oh, he's the one. Sorry. Barry's the one who was like, I put it to you, that was his. Thing Yeah, right, I put. It to you that this happened, I put it to you that this happened. So he's not really saying that these things happened. He's just like inferring that these might be the things that happened. He really used, I guess South Africa's, what is it like their

1:19:42 their sensitivity around home invasions and the how vulnerable they are as his main motivating factor for his defence. So basically he said like, of course he had. Now interestingly enough, I, I did look into this a little bit because I'm like, you know, in America they've got different self-defense laws to what we even do in Australia. Yes, South in South Africa, you even if you kill somebody in an active self-defense, you are still bound to a manslaughter type charge. Yeah. And So what he. Is basically saying is that he's trying to, I guess lessen or give make make the case that he really thought this was an intruder so it wouldn't end up being a murder charge, that it'd be downgraded to manslaughter, essentially what we call what we call it.

1:20:41 They call it something different, but. Yeah, yeah. But and to really try and I guess maybe get him off on community service or something like that, because if you did have a home invader and they were armed and all of that kind of stuff, you probably, that's probably the what the course of the way these things would go. Yeah. When you're shooting into a room where there's a locked door and you don't know who's behind there. And that person has no way out kind of scenario. You know, interesting. Yeah, there's, there were a lot of witnesses called to their trial witness to this and I think for, for.

1:21:16 Being something that you'd sort of go, no one else saw what happened. There was a ton of witnesses which I found really interesting. Me too, because the way that then the prosecution put those forward, but then what the defence sort of came and brought to dismantle what they had put forward. So we've spoken about the fact that that door was open at one point and then closed. Let's just say when the police arrived, that door was closed. We don't know really when it was closed other than what Oscar says he's so.

1:21:44 Living witness to this whole. Absolutely. And he does say he went out onto that balcony and and called for help too. We didn't say that before, but he did yell out for help from that balcony. See, that gets me too, because he said so. He's then reopened the door, gone out there to scream for help, closed it, come back in, closed it, closed the curtains. Yeah, because it was still pitch black in there and the curtains were fully shut. Like come. On none of it, all make doesn't all make sense. So there's not one, There's not 2, but 345 neighbors, yes, who swear by pretty similar kind of stories that they work.

1:22:23 Two blood curdling screams that they heard a woman screaming, they heard gunshots. Some, but not all stated that they heard arguments, arguments prior to the gunshots. So yeah, not all of them said that, sorry. And I'm talking. I mean, we can name Michelle Berger, Carl Johnson, Estelle van der Meer. All came forward saying similar stories to what they had heard. However, the defence brought forward a man by the name of Oh my gosh, Ivan Lynn, who is an acoustic expert who claims that from that inside of that toilet or inside that apartment or house, you wouldn't be able to hear that now if more than one person is saying that.

1:23:20 But that was discounted. This is it because So what I think what the the conjecture around that testimony was. So when Oscar was on the stand, they asked him, did you hear Reeva scream? So he's shot the gun once. Did you hear Reeva scream? And he says no, because the gunshot was so loud, because he told him about this, Yeah, he couldn't hear anything. So the defence are saying, well if he couldn't hear that, he couldn't hear Reeva screaming and he was right there, then how did the neighbors hear it?

1:24:02 Now as. The neighbors heard the neighbors heard screaming, like arguing and screaming, shrieking for the first gunshot. So this guy also tried to claim though. Oh. Yeah. That it's not a you're not able to distinguish between a male and a female screaming so these people saying they heard a woman screaming probably just heard Oscar screaming after it had happened and realizing. What had gone on balcony and started screaming? Yeah. Like, oh, my God, I just find it really, to me, there were too many.

1:24:34 I mean, from what I could gather, it did say that this evidence from this Ivan Lynn weakened slightly. The prosecution's case. However, to me, sitting on, if I was on a jury, say, yeah, you've got three people with the same story from different houses. To me that says more than this expert because I mean otherwise the. Thing that this expert said was that potentially what they're thinking they're hearing is the cricket bat breaking down the door. Now that I can imagine nobody hearing from doors and doors away like 2.

1:25:06 One of the neighbors was like 200 meters away, yes I can understand. One there was 600, but there was one that. Was 200. Yeah. Yeah. So you, I I totally get the fact, yeah, that you won't hear a cricket bat hitting a door from 200 meters away. Yeah, you would fucking hear gunshots. Gunshots and a those were also screaming bullets. And someone screaming like I, I, I get that, yeah. Yeah, and they also like say that she maybe they heard her screaming whilst the gunshots were going right now, but the the witnesses say no, no, no, I heard the screaming prior to the gunshots right now.

1:25:39 The thing is you think about her being shot once she's not screaming. I'm sorry. She's actually not screaming in when that amount of impact has been made. I don't think that her. Arm was the first thing to get struck so I can come at maybe. Even would then the loudest screaming is going to be prior to that even. Definitely. I honestly believe that that's the screaming you would hear, not necessarily. The to me in pain scream isn't necessarily that kind of scream. I think I, I I get what you're saying because you're, you're saying like in the lead up to that first gunshot, Yeah.

1:26:18 She was terrified. She was screaming for her life. Yeah, that's a different type of scream than being shot and hit and screaming. Out. That's immediate. Like to me, that's a shock. Of that, yeah. That's a shock pain and shock scream. That's different to I've got to stop this happening scream like, yeah, yeah. So I think that I think it's valid to say that, yeah, you didn't hear screaming when she was being shot because, well, yeah, I don't know that there was screaming when she got shot. She quickly after one or two of those bullets was probably not making any noise whereas prior, yeah, valid hearing screaming and then he's what saying oh, you wouldn't be able to hear it anyway through that space.

1:27:00 But I think I think the door was open. I think that they did hear what they heard. Yep. Yeah, another one of the defenses, I guess they're little pillars that they were hanging on, was the fact that Reeva's bladder was empty. Yeah, yeah. So what they say is that she'd gone to the toilet, had finished her business, had flushed the toilet and put the seat down when the first shot came. Yeah, but he's he's heard a noise, yes, and thought that's an intruder hasn't. Actually just anything in any statement about flushing the toilet.

1:27:33 There was no nothing in the toilet to suggest that she hadn't yet flushed it. No, I suspect like if she's died, like she's possibly let go of her. You're you're more likely to hear the flush of the toilet than someone moving like to just to like to in that moment of like who's. Hearing me again, that's a moot point, but they're just trying to introduce that, aren't they? Yeah, it was interesting that that didn't come up much in the trial where, you know, like the like the defence would have wanted that being spoken about, the fact that where's the flush who he never mentioned.

1:28:06 Oh, no, no, no, right. No, no, no. Yeah, why is she in that toilet then, if she's not flushing it? Yeah, other than trying to fucking get away from you, mate, yeah. Yeah. God, the other big one for the prosecution that they had was a pathologist, Dr. Gert Simon. MM hmm. Now he gave graphic detail in trial and it's actually his testimony is a lot of it's been retracted even in the live stream of it, because it's pretty intense. People in the courtroom found it disturbing, so he gave. Oscar vomited during some of his testimony because he found it so yeah, so difficult to watch and listen to.

1:28:45 Yeah, her injuries, he gave very graphic detail of those injuries. As we said, those bullets were horrendous that he used, but he also gave gave evidence around the trajectory of those bullets. Now, what was suggested by Doctor Goetz Salmon was that Oscar was wearing his prosthetics at the time, based on the height on and the trajectory of the bullets. Yeah. So they can kind of see through the door, that angle at which the bullets went through the door. And if he were on his stumps, and I mean, obviously he loses, you know, what would it be a foot or two of height when he's walking on his stumps as opposed to walking on his prosthetics, The angle, the trajectory of the bullets doesn't match him being on his stumps.

1:29:35 The bullets are actually almost in a downward pointing way. And so he wouldn't have really been able to do that unless he's got the gun up. Yeah. And he's shooting like that. But apparently the. Kickbacker. Meant you couldn't do. That not even with his strength of you know, and ability in terms of athletic ability, yeah, why would you do that like. Yeah. So that puts into doubt, yeah, Oscar's version of events, because if he was, if they were actually in bed and he had taken his limbs off and his prosthetics off, and then, yeah, they wouldn't be on.

1:30:13 The other thing that Doctor Simon Says is that the food in Reeva's stomach at the time, so he said there was something like 200 mils of partially digested food in her stomach, which, had they eaten when Oscar said they ate, wouldn't have been there. No. So he suggests that they probably ate later. Were they arguing into the night? He he thinks that Reeva was actually probably downstairs having a bit of a snack at this early part of the morning, right. And they've possibly had a fight down there and come back upstairs.

1:30:46 That to him also explains why she's partially dressed still. And then maybe as this fight ensued, that's when the rest of what? The prosecution. 'S theory is about what happened. Yeah, who knows? It's really hard to say. And I mean, with these things, it's not an exact science. He's speaking from experience and. I mean same with the trajectory of the bullets things. I mean, different to here in Australia, they were able to bring in their own experts that counteracted what the the prosecution. Really, had they brought the door to the into the courtroom?

1:31:22 Yeah. It was really hard though, because he also then used the cricket bat to break down the door. So there was some, a lot of a lot, a fair bit of the evidence was actually destroyed in that. So yes, I think, I think the defense were able to pretty successfully argue that, yeah, it wasn't the way the prosecution said. I I feel like in the end that kind of ended up evening itself out. This is the thing, I mean, that's frustrating from that perspective of the court system being you're, you're allowed to do that.

1:31:50 Yeah, Here in Australia you have to agree on an expert, yeah, between the defence and the prosecution, so that you only sort of really get one side of the story. Which, well, one it's not even a side of a. Story no like 1. 1. Expert. Expert's opinion. Yeah. So I think you can actually, you can agree on multiple experts, but you but at the same time that you agree on them. Whereas in this system, the defence can bring their own, the prosecution can bring their own and they just counteract each other.

1:32:18 I mean, that can be incredibly confusing. And which I think is a jury, if there was a jury involved in this, that becomes really challenging because as a layperson sort of going like, oh, OK, well, this guy said this, but then this one said this and they crossed each other out. How do you get to a solution? I think that's part of like, one of the benefits of having a judge boss. Yeah, Judge. Only in this. In this system, yeah, for sure. A few things came up about like the botched policing that happened.

1:32:45 Oh, let's go. Let's go there. So lead Detective Hilton Botha. Yep. He admitted to walking through the crime scene without booties on. Yep. Now he saw the blood trail basically leading from the downstairs all the way through upstairs. He just walked on it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, contaminating all of the footprint evidence that may have given a little rise to what what had actually gone on. They also missed a spent bullet casing that had bounced into the toilet bowl somehow, or behind the toilet bowl. Completely missed that.

1:33:21 Just missed it. So they thought, they thought at the time, maybe there were three bullets. Those 3 bullets hit Reeva. Turns out, Nah, there were four shots. Just missed that initially. The other thing that happened was that one of Pistorius's incredibly valuable watches, he was a watch collector. Yeah. A horologist, if you will. Oh, I hadn't heard that word before. That's like a watch a watch person. Yep. Yeah, love that. Don't ask me how I know that. Yeah, yeah, Apparently it was in a storage box and then disappeared.

1:33:59 Disappeared. That's. Interesting. Yeah, what have you got about the police? Well, so. Hilton Brother was a very interesting person. Very interesting. So during the this investigation it became evident that he himself, the lead detective, was being looked at for not one, but 7 attempted murders. Sorry, corruption. Sorry what? Sorry, what? Corrupt, corruption, basically. What this was all in one event. I will say that it's not like 7 separate attempted murders. Yeah, but what had happened was it was a taxi full of like a minibus kind of taxi of like 7 people that these cops had like shot at.

1:34:46 There was a couple of them and yeah, and nearly killed all these people in with absolutely really, by the sounds of things, no reason to have been doing this. And it turns out there was like alcohol involved and that he must was probably really, really drunk during this episode. So he had, you know, charges basically being about to be laid up against him in regards to this attempted murder of seven people. So yeah, he was a really unusual. He was very quickly then taken off of the case at that point once they realized, ah wait, no you can't.

1:35:19 Be but he still had to give testimony at the trial. But because he was the person at the scene, he still had to give trial, give that. So I know the prosecution actually quoted as jokingly sort of saying, well, there goes my case because, yeah, this guy's gonna make, I mean, the defensive got like a absolute field day here to pick him apart and just absolutely destroy all the evidence that he collected from the scene. He did do the majority of the. I mean, this is a case where the scene is there the scene like he has done the major part of this.

1:35:49 This isn't 1 where, you know, you've got a reported missing person and they were looking into it. Yeah. And then, you know, when the major parts of the action happened, he's already been removed. No, no, no. He was there on the action day. So therefore he has the most amount of evidence to give regardless of someone else being put on the case later. So he had to sit at trial and yeah, the the defense. Sorry, like, right. Just. Oh really ripped through all of his his testimony. I mean Oh my God, what the hell are they thinking putting him still in a in I mean at the minute that happened, he surely he would have to have gone on like, you know, some sort of leave.

1:36:24 I don't know like he couldn't keep him in the job. Oh. No way. I don't know what happened to him after, but. Surely not, no? Surely not from the trial. The one thing that really sticks out to me is, and this is just my memory of it when I think about it, even before researching this, Yeah, is when they get Pistorius to take his prosthetics off in court and walk around in court. Don't. It's awful. It's awful. Yeah. It's. Really awful. And then someone from the defence, this a woman from the defence team, she goes up and like, you know, almost comforts him and takes him back to his seat.

1:37:08 Like he's like because their thing was he's so vulnerable on. Him they tried to make out as if like you know someone in his position of not being having his prosthetics on made him more vulnerable to an intruder and so his fear and heightened level of fear was what made him then shoot at someone who was had invaded his. Bone, the prosecution at the time when they came up with that argument, the prosecution was like, yes, but if you're a trained marksman, which he was, which Pistorius was, yeah, And you've got a gun license, you know that you have to fire a warning shot.

1:37:39 That's like, that's a thing, right? Apparently. OK. Yeah, right. If you're using it, especially when that person's behind a locked door. Oh yeah. That's the whole thing that gets it. From me. He didn't do that, obviously, because the first shot hit Reeva in the arm. Yeah, so he doesn't fire a warning shot into the ceiling. No, Did he? But that's the thing that kills me with this case is that this person, OK, let's say it was an intruder, they're behind a locked door and he his only claim to getting help is saying whispering to Reva, call the cops.

1:38:14 Now wouldn't you immediately grab the phone and call the cops or you know, do that straight away if you actually thought there was something in your home rather than shooting through a door being your immediate go to, let alone like get a warning? Shot or I don't know. Yeah, get out. Yeah. You also know is that person armed? I guess you assume an intruder probably would be I. I really don't know. But then you've got the you've got the advantage there of that person's in that tiny little room locked in there that you can leave.

1:38:47 Yep, you he could have gone down the stairs and got out the front. That's what I mean on the phone to the cops, like there's so many other options and shooting through that door ass. Next door. Yeah, yeah. You've got security not too far away. Yep, just it does. Yeah, yeah. On the 12th of September in 1994, Judge Masipa delivers what I must say was an incredibly shocking verdict. Totally. She acquits Pistorius of murder. Yep. And she ruled that the state failed to provide intent. We'll talk about that in one second.

1:39:21 She instead finds him guilty of culpable homicide, which is the South African equivalent of manslaughter, ruling that he acted negligently in his in his actions. But yeah, it was they, it wasn't. He didn't intend. Now, if you were firing through a door, regardless of who you think is on the other side, you're intending to kill that person. 100% four times, 4 times once OK, once a warning shot, maybe 4 times through that door you're intending to. Kill that person. Kill that. Person that's. Regardless of who it is, Yeah, Whether it was Riva or whether it was an intruder, Yeah.

1:40:03 So that's murder now. I agree. If it was an intruder, then maybe mitigating circumstances that might mean you get a reduced sentence. I can understand that. Which I mean he got five years at this point. So I mean, to me that sounds like very light for the extent of what he. Apparently, the minimum normally for this negligent, what do they call it? Sorry, culpable homicide. Yeah, is 15 years. Right. He got 5 now, she the judge said it was because of his disability, because of his remorse that he showed, because of the fact that he was willing to be open in court.

1:40:47 Was his remorse for Reeva or remorse for himself? Was for himself. There's some really interesting shit around this too. This kind of this taints it a little bit for me. But I mean, not that I think he's any less guilty. No, but he started paying Reeva's mum and dad the day she died because so she was financially supporting her mum and dad and Oscar knew that. And then basically as soon as she passed away, he started paying them something like 300, the equivalent of 300 U.S. dollars a week, which is what she was paying them.

1:41:28 And they said at the time that they accepted that money because they had no other money. Right. But their intention was to pay that back. Now, they, the parents, Reeva's parents, wanted that money to be disclosed. They wanted everyone to know that he was paying them a stipend because they felt like it was a conflict, although they felt like they didn't really have any choice because they were. They had been relying on Reever. And until all of her affairs were sorted out, there was kind of nothing.

1:41:57 Yeah, but Pistorius did not want anyone to know that he was paying them because it like, it looks like it's blood money. Yeah, right. Yeah. Anyway, sorry, that was just an interesting little tidbit I found. I didn't find that, no. That's really interesting. So the prosecution decide to appeal the sentence because they said it was just way, way too inadequate, Like way too low. Yeah. So sorry. In October of 2019, he'd been in prison for just one year. Yep. Right. He was released from prison at that time to serve the remainder of his arrest.

1:42:37 A remainder of his sentence. Sorry. Under house arrest at his uncle's? Yep. Stunning. Stunning mansion? Yep. Swimming pool. And May, oh, but he couldn't leave. We couldn't leave Emma. He was stuck. There. Oh, he could leave, but he needed a special he couldn't have. Parties. Yeah, or drink alcohol.

1:43:00 On the 3rd of December in 2015, the Supreme Court of Appeal of South Africa overturned Judge Masipa's culpable homicide verdict. This was under Justice Eric Leach, and he ruled that the implied intent of him firing these hollow point bullets into this tiny little locked cubicle would have definitely killed anybody inside. Yep, Regardless of who he thought it was. And he is officially at that point, convicted of murder. Yep. Finally. Oh yeah. Oh, yeah. But but Yep, he goes back to sense sentencing.

1:43:38 And Judge Masiba is the judge who sentences him then for that murder. For six years, he gets an additional year for it being changed from manslaughter. Oh no, no, it was to murder in addition to it was 13 years in. Total No, that was the second. Oh, was it? Oh God. OK, I'm getting ahead of myself. Oh, we second. Appeal had they had to appeal again. Sorry, you're absolutely right. That was like another year later. They had to go back again, the prosecution said. This is ridiculous. Shockingly, how?

1:44:07 Can you lenient? Was what they said. Yep, how can you go one year more for now, deciding it's murder from manslaughter? I'm sorry, that's just. What is wrong with her I? Don't get it? But eventually he is sentenced to 13 years. And five months which? Is five months. Yep. But again, the statutory statutory minimum for murder at the time was 15 years and he only got 13 1/2. And then only served 9. Yep. So. After well served 9 but will. He's still. Be on house. Arrest, he's under house arrest kind of thing, but he's also, and he will be looked at closely until 2029.

1:44:46 So yeah, he's got an extensive period of parole, but he is out on parole after nine years, so. Yeah. So he was released on the 5th of January in 2024. Yeah, on parole, Yeah.

1:45:02 He's not allowed to travel 2025, was it 20252025 he not allowed to travel, alcohol restrictions, He's not allowed to talk to the media and he has to do mandatory anger management. Yes, courses there are stuff like that. Therapy. Yeah, let's hope that that has some sort of impact. But he's he's keeping a low profile. He's still living at his uncle's. Yeah. Mansion, yeah. Yeah, he, he keeps a low profile. He's he doesn't, he's not competing obviously in sports and things like that. Although he has done a triathlon recently.

1:45:35 And so which, you know, they say is sort of part of his mental health and things like that, which I totally get that someone who's been in that world needs to be exercising, etcetera. It's you really have to do. Why don't you exercise around your community? Why do you have to enter into an event I? Guess, you know, competitively, I don't know, I kind of can't argue with like, you know, at least he's not going out there going, you know, like winning it maybe or something. I don't know. There's another video clip I saw of him, which really I found disturbing before all this happened.

1:46:03 And it was actually not all that long after the 2012 Olympics where I guess other people who have who are amputees, sort of the technology around the blaze and things like that was increasing. Yep. And so he did. He was in a couple of events and we're probably talking early 23rd, late 2012, early 2013 at this point where he didn't win the event or if he did win, it wasn't by as much as he was winning previously. And so and after the event he had quite the dummy spit, which was really interesting.

1:46:35 That was on in an interview, like at the end of the race where he was complaining about the the fact that really he hadn't won. So he was, he was making excuses. Yes, he was like, well, they've got. They've got Yeah. And he was, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Just not a good sport. No, it was very interesting to see him. I don't know. He wasn't the Golden Boy. I think they all wanted him to be, you know? No, I think the facade definitely was starting to. Yeah. To come down. Yeah. Yeah. People were seeing different things.

1:47:10 So where is he now? He's dating a woman who looks strikingly like Reeva, and her name's Rita.

1:47:22 Oh. Honestly, they could be sisters. I don't. Like that? Very uncomfortable. Yeah, that does not sit well. Rivas So in that insight episode I was just talking about before, Reeva's mum talks about the impact of Reeva's death on hers and Barry's relationship. Yeah. So their marriage broke down after Reeva died, She said. They just grieved in such different ways and it just wasn't really compatible with each other. Barry died in September of 2023. He was aged 80. June still continues to speak out against Pistorius.

1:48:07 She has said she did say that she forgives him. I think that's, I don't know how people do that. No, but find that hard, find that I, I don't really understand it. But she also acknowledges the fact that, like, he's incredibly like, potentially dangerous to a future partner. Yeah. But she think he's doing the therapy. And yeah, that's true, she said in a statement in January of 2024, when he was released. There can never be justice if your loved one is never coming back. And no amount of time served will bring Reeva back.

1:48:44 We who remain behind are the ones serving a life sentence. And that's. It is so true, so true. So, so true. Oh. Gosh, because he's, I don't think he got as much as he should have. No, in terms of a sentence for it, particularly once it was reverted to a a murder charge. Yeah, seems woefully inadequate. I wonder what will happen after 2029 and his paroles over. Like do you think he will come back out in the meteor and try and spin his story? I don't know. The people would have it. I don't think the public would have it.

1:49:19 You and I were kind of discussing this a little bit yesterday. But when I do. I know, but we had to stop ourselves. But I was saying to you, often when I'm, when we're researching, I do like to try and get opinions from both sides of the fence just for my own. Like I want wholeness and completeness in my research. Of course, we always come up with what we think and we let you guys know what our thoughts are and what our theories are and who we believe and who we don't. But I like for completeness to try and get do a bit of research into the other side of the story.

1:49:51 Yeah. I couldn't, aside from a few friends who have very tiny little bits to say. Yeah, there's not really anyone in on any mass scale anyway, who believes him. No, and those that do don't agree with the recklessness of what he did. They agree with the thought that he might have had an intruder in his house, but they don't agree with shooting that person in the way. Regardless, they don't condone his no. So that's where I feel like even if he did like, as you say, 2029 hits and does he come out in a bit of a media storm and, you know, like, you know, try and go back to his old life, I don't think that's going to be possible because even those people that support him in some way are like, yeah, but mate, you took it too far.

1:50:37 You're still fucked up. Yeah. Yeah. Like, so there are people that I don't know that anyone, Yeah, everyone it's to some degree can can agree that it's a minimum man sort sort of sort of situation. And in that a very reckless one. Yeah. I think that's where we all can come at. Whereas, I mean, some people then go to the next level and go, no, he was a domestic violence abuser and this was next level, you know, in some ways premeditated. It's sort of idea of, you know, he's a, he was an aggressive piece of shit.

1:51:06 Yeah. Yeah. Whereas some people go, no, no, no. Like he honestly was just, you know, paranoid and unfortunately took it too far and shot an intruder. Like thought he was shooting an intruder. Yeah. I don't know how you can't think of your partner in the situation of there being an intruder in your house and going first port a call. That person I love. Where are you? Because there's someone in our house. That you just reminded me of something that he said to Reeva's parents. He's, and he said this in court when he was making a statement, something along the lines of or at least raving you when she died, that she was loved.

1:51:43 No, fuck you. No, the absolute opposite. Because even if you thought she was an intruder, even if you are telling the absolute truth in that you didn't think of her when there was an intruder in your house, I knew. She was behind the door. Meg. Exactly. He knew what he was doing. Oh, that actually infuriates. I know. Oh my God. Yep, I can't. I'm like, you disgusting piece of shit, How dare you say that to her parents? How? How you dare you? Yeah. Oh, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. OK, I'm done. Yep.

1:52:20 Can't anymore. Yep. All right. Well, thank you everybody for joining us for another episode. This has gone on. Oh my God, James. So much for this being. Oh, there's not much to this. Yeah, famous last. Oh, totally. Make sure you come and join us over on Patreon. You've got a couple of more days to get on into the draw for our merch pack, so you can join us there at patreon.com/two Crime Besties. Go and check out our website which is 2 Crime besties.com and if you want to check out our merch it is 2 Crime besties.com/merch.

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1:53:17 All right, thanks everyone. Stay curious. Crime besties. Bye.

1:53:37 Oh, my God. Oh, sorry, sorry. Oh, because your screen's like, frozen. I didn't see like that you were gonna clap. Oh, your screen's frozen for me too, all right. Anyway. Is Peter working? Yeah, well, is it work playing Fortnite It? Better not be all right. 91 isn't it? 91 What episode 91? Sorry, I'm here are. You. Are you actually the? Coffee's not kicking in yet. No, no. Welcome back to crime. Oh sorry, I just started while you were drinking a coffee. This morning. You know why? It's because the screens like.

1:54:24 Yeah, it's, it's not. I'm not seeing each other. Yeah, I need to put you over the top of my screen. Yeah, stuffed up. Well, anyway.