Episode 85 - The Adelaide Family Murders Part 2 of 2

0:15 Welcome to Part 2 besties of the family murders in South Australia. We are at episode 85 now, so, you know, looking down the barrel of that gun still to to episode 100, which we're very, very excited about. As always, keep your case suggestions coming. Yeah, we've had a few lately. We need to do a few more, but yeah, we keep adding them to the list. But I want to know, like I really, I'm still waiting for that one where we're like, yes, that will be 100th episode. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I don't know what it is.

0:42 Yeah, I've. Got a couple of ideas, but I'm like, oh, there's things that I'd like to know more about and I feel like maybe there's more coming. Yeah, yeah, there's definitely a few of those at the moment that I've. Got yeah. Actually, I saw there's that new documentary out about Lucy Letbee that I'm like, oh, do we need to redo that? And. I'm like, oh, we need to redo it. I'm. Not ready. I'm not ready. No, we're not ready. We can't do it yet, but we will need to redo that. Yeah. So I've actually listened to two different podcasts about her rewrite.

1:10 So one of them is actually by Amanda Knox. Yeah. Which I feel like that's a very. She's got a very unique perspective in some ways. But then I'm like, is that a that brings a bias? I was gonna say, is that a skewed perspective? Yeah. Look, some of the things that she talks about, I'm like, I can totally see that. I I get where you're coming from. Yeah. And then other things I'm like, oh, my skeptic hat is still on, so watch this space. I think we are gonna have to re record something though, because there is definitely a lot of things that you and I in our in our episode, we were like, Oh yeah, this is the way it is because that's what everyone thought.

1:49 That's the way it. Was being presented at trial we. Really. Absolutely. It was the way it was being presented. We didn't do anything wrong. No, at the time we thought these things were fact because they were presented at trial like fact. And we now know that's not true. But still even on that, I'm still to me that it's still different perspectives it and that doesn't make I. Do I do agree with you? Yeah. But we didn't have anything contradicting what was said before. And I think it brings an element of doubt.

2:15 Yeah, yeah. And so I, I do think we're gonna have to redo it at some point. I I reckon it's years away. Same, honestly don't know that there's going to be a retrial. I really I. Don't know, I don't there will be a retrial. Well, they'd have to get around some pretty, I mean, UK, the, the law they're in. This is really. Strict and stuff. They're actually trying. I know they're trying to change the law, I get that, but how long is that? Gonna yeah, that's what I mean. It's gonna be years. Yeah, that's why I just do.

2:40 I don't know. Yeah, just don't know. Anyway, if you do go back and listen to our Lucy Let Be episode, just know that we know. We don't know at all.

2:49 It's like that episode of Friends where it's like, you know that I know, but you don't know that I know that you know. I know exactly what you just said.

2:58 I did also watch this week though. There's a new docker at the moment about Lamar Odom. Oh, Oh my God, I'm desperate to watch this because in the short of it, Kris Jenner's in it. Oh. Chloe's in it. Yeah, yeah. Oh my God. Yeah, Yeah. Well, you need to watch it, OK, because I have so much to talk about. Just the name in itself. I literally had to then Google because I'm like, it was called, it's called the Death and lives of of Lamar Odom. And I'm like, something happened that I wasn't aware of. He's alive.

3:30 What the hell? And I'm like Googling kindly, you know, love Odom is. Like he's alive. He's. No, I'm right. He's still alive. Like he'd have died but to me I don't agree with the name. I understand he had a near death experience, I completely get that and he probably should have died from what he experienced. But that title is very misleading like. I mean it gets. It got me in, yeah. Oh wow. I have some opinions and I Chloe's my favorite Kardashian. Yes, same. And there's some things in that that I kind of go fuck me, they're fucked.

4:04 Yeah. Oh, they're fucked. I mean, you've seen all of these things that went lately where people are like putting their changing their profile picture to Kris Jenner and they're getting like job interviews. They're getting like people, a lot of followers and what, who's. Believing this shit. Well, no, I don't know. The people, just I don't know. I don't know. Look into it. Just some real Kris Jenner energy. Some real momager energy. Yeah, I have to say I love her facelift that she got recently. But it's flawless.

4:35 It is. I look at her and I'm like, you're pretty much the same age as my mum. She looks like Kim now. She looks like Kim. She looks exactly the same. Yeah. I mean, they've done an amazing. Job. I think Kim's pierced. Oh, wouldn't you be? Oh, no, you'd be like, give me the name. I need to know who you've been to. Name Naman. Naman just a crossover of our 20 God. Sorry, yes, curiously. What the fuck? I mean it, it is amazing, but then do you want to look like you're in your 30s when you're 70 something?

5:08 Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I think, you know, ageing gracefully is one thing, but then there's like, but if you can look like that, why not? Well. That's true too. I guess her partner is considerably younger than her as well. She's got to keep up with him. That's true. Yeah, maybe. I mean, you know what? Or powder. Anyone who wants to do that, honestly, yeah. Hey whoever that doctor is like Jesus Christ, yeah, I bet he charges a fortune or she and well worth it. Incredible, Absolutely incredible.

5:36 I'd like to seat up close. Yeah, No, I have to say, yeah, that was something I didn't think. I think it's it's probably a combination of good, very, very talented surgeon, but very talented, you know, makeup artists and lighting. Oh yeah, yeah. It's all about the lighting. Yeah. Have you seen these, like Youtubers who do vlogs? Did we talk? I can't Remember Remember we talked about this in the oh, what's Ruby Frankie case or not, but they changed the light bulbs in their homes so that when they're vlogging at home, they've got lighting.

6:07 Oh, I don't know if it's no, if it's warm or cool, What is it? I don't know whatever, but they changed to LED lights. Maybe I don't even know, but just so that the. Lights the LED. I don't know man, they change it to something so it looks better when they're vlogging. Bathroom lighting. Can you imagine the lighting in the Kardashians? Homes that would be That's why. That's why Kim's house is white. Yeah, it's good reflections. Good reflections. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, funny as now I've. We had a family lunch the other day and we were talking about what is your desert island food?

6:42 Oh. And I'm really interested to know what yours is. Do I have to get it from the desert island or am I like bringing it with? Me, you can bring it with you because someone said. OK, I can't do this. Oh, why? Because I can't do the same food. You look physically really uncomfortable, right? Now I am because I can't. That's one of my things. I will be obsessed with a particular food, but for a short period of time and then I can't anymore. Yeah, I I actually totally get that. I'm like that with a lot of things.

7:16 Like I'll go through a phase where every time I walk past a sushi shop, I'll buy sushi. Yeah, yeah. And then I'm like, Oh my God, like. I thought of putting sushi in my mouth. Makes me want a gag. Yes, yeah, I get. That yeah, because like I've got, OK, you know how people say like your taste buds only leave a certain amount of time and once, yeah, I gotta think that's bullshit because every now and then I'll get like a flavour that I'll like, imagine in my brain and in my mouth and I'll be like, what is that something I've eaten before?

7:43 And I'm like, now I want it. And I can't even remember what it was like. It'll be like even a combination of foods or I don't know, it's something that I've eaten once, Once Upon a time and I'll be like need it. I need it, but I can't even make out what it. Is Oh that sucks. Yeah. That absolutely sucks. I've got a couple from childhood still that I'm like, I don't think you can buy it anymore and I want it. You know what it is? Nah, 01 of them's like a God. It was something you used to get from the deli, a bit of meat.

8:10 It was like a cold meat. Not Devon, No, it was not devily faced. No, no, no, no. It had like actually had. It was like a salami ish kind of thing, but it had like big chunks of like peppercorns like in it. So when it was sliced, it had like these big peppercorns in it. Yum. I would, yeah, I'd love that at the moment. But I you can't buy it, right? I don't even know where. I don't know. Where would you even go? Franklin's ain't. No, no frills left. No frills left. Yeah, yeah, no, no. It's like, oh there's like yeah.

8:44 So I don't know if I could have like 1 food that I then live on in an island because I I know I'm going to get over it real real quick. But there's not something where you'd be like, I would have to come. I think I'm gonna hold you to this. You've gotta you've gotta choose something. Water I'll. Make that so fucking boring I. Don't know. Let's say water is a really hard water is a given, OK. Honey, soy chips, the Oh, you do. Love deli deli and honey soy chicken. I do return it but again I have to have breaks from them too.

9:14 If you know, if they go on sale and I get 2 bags or something, say, and I've I've had them in the cupboard, I then I don't want them again until they're on sale again. Like kind of thing like, oh, that works Well, yeah, no, it works because it's like, no, I, I, I'm like, oh God, I'm over them. Like, I can't even if I see them on sale early between, you know, kind of him, like, Nah, Nah. Not buying them. Yeah. OK. So Peter was like, Peter's was like Schnitzel. He loves a Schnitzel. Yeah. And I was like, OK.

9:41 That's really bland for him though. It is. It is because we also decided that condiments were not allowed. Oh, see. No, see my I. Need to but but then, but then mine I was like, I need a condiment on mine. So then I revised, yeah, I revised it. And I was like, OK, you can. Have a a sauce, a dip, that's yeah, it's all about it. Someone else said a cow because then they can have like a steak they can make. Yeah, but I'm not cutting that thing up. It's I'm gonna become best friends with it. Yeah, Nah, yeah.

10:14 And then what else did we have? I can't even remember what else we had. But my thing now, I think I was actually really clever because I said, like, a chicken salad, because then you're getting all your food groups, right. I would have like, you'd have all your salad, veggies. Yeah. Cheese, obviously, because you're not, you know, an idiot. But not idiots. You'd have your protein from your chicken. Yeah, it's good. And then you could have like an olive oil kind of dressing for some good fats. Yeah.

10:48 So I feel like nutritionally, yeah. And maybe you could have like a few pepitas or some crunch on there, but a nutritional yeast or something to really to really, yeah, 'cause you'd need your bit of vitamins. Yeah, bit of nutritional yeast, maybe a few chickpeas in there. Yeah, you can fucking chickpeas right off. Oh yeah. Love a chickpea in a salad. Oh I love a chickpea at any time. Although the other day mum was like oh I made your dad a nice high protein. Was it a cake or a cookie? God, now I can't remember what it.

11:19 Was and I'm making cookies. And Mum, sorry, what else did? She put in. Those we all know what Lynn wants to put in a cookie, but then she showed it to me. We're in a video call. She showed it to me. I'm like, it looks so fucking dry. What have you done with that thing? And she's like, oh, I use chickpea flour. I'm like, oh, I love chickpeas, but Nah, Nah and dad goes, oh, no, it looks really nice. I'm like, well good luck eating your. Dad's nice, yeah. So nice.

11:47 Oh, anyway, Dad let us know how it was because I haven't actually followed up and asked you. He's probably still gagging. Gagging it down with a giant glass of water. Oh God, fun you. Know that's a good choice. I can. I can understand your thinking, yeah. I was trying to be strategic. It's not necessarily the thing that I would want to eat forever. No, but a good, yeah, good choice. I guess if you because you could then like from that array of foods that have arrived, you could separate. Them and make other things that's right like you could have a bit of cheese and tomato that's.

12:18 Cheeky of you to do that, I. Could have a net croutons. Yeah, so you do almost like a Caesar salad, kind of. Yeah, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. All right. I'd come to your desert islands. Olives. Oh yeah. Yum. Olives, yeah, yeah. And I want to do like some stuffed olives or like nice. No, no, no, no. Kalamata in a salad or one of those. Oh you know what I love? Those marinated split green olives from Woolies from the deli section. Woolies are so good and good. Yes, yes. Guys, let us know what your desert island food is.

12:51 We do do it 'cause it's like one of my favourites is I do my platter day Saturday. Oh yeah. Thanks Fadam. Yeah, get onto Fidan talk if you're not. Yeah. And like just to have, I needed a variety. I need variety. So to have like I always have my olives and then on that. Oh yeah, yeah. Oh I love a pickled anything good. Oh, cheddar cheese. Sharp cheddar. Do you like the Mercy Valley? Love the Mercy Valley. Me too. Yeah. Which one? Which one do you? Like, do you know, I, I'd have to go a classic. Like, you know, it's just a given.

13:22 Yeah. But I quite like many of the others actually. The which one or the pickled? Onion pickled onion 1 I actually quite like. Yeah, I'm quite good. For me too. Yeah, but yeah, if I've got just got a classic Coco. Yeah, I get that. Yeah. Yeah. Yum Yum sound. I bloody want cheese now I. Know and I've actually followed this chick on TikTok. Oh no Instagram, sorry. And she makes her own dips, so dip and chip and wine and she so she basically matches her dips to her wine. Oh my God, I love this. Oh.

13:51 I'll get you on it. It's so good that I'm like, oh God, I need to start making my own dips. Holy crap. What kind of dips does she make? Everything. Oh, and they're so good. Oh, they. Sound. That sounds amazing. The last one she did the other night was as a real it was quite basic in a lot of ways. What was hot honey on it and stuff? Oh, I love her. I was just like, oh, and like, yeah, she matches all of her different chip with her dip and then her wine and she'll. Yeah, so. We went to our local ice cream shop this week last week and they had a hot honey flavoured ice cream and it, Oh no it was so good Oh my God it was good my.

14:27 Brain's just exploded. Oh, it was actually amazing because you can have like chocolate chili ice cream. So this is just like, yeah, honey chili, ice cream, but. Chocolate and ice cream where it's honey and ice cream. Oh, no, it was really good. Yeah, it was Yum. Yeah, totally up. My ally loved it. Well, I think I might have to try it. Yeah, I do love a bit of hot honey. Me too, and. I just don't use it enough like I wanna use it on more things. I very often eat cottage cheese on toast for breakfast and I put hot honey on that because it just makes it makes halitable.

15:01 Yeah. Yeah, I get that. I mean, you know, we're women in our 40s. We need our protein, but we need our protein to taste delicious. It tastes good, yeah. I need to want to eat the protein. Yes, yes, yeah. I need some spice in my life. Yeah, you do. Speaking of spice, in our life, I'm being, I'm actually, I, we. So, you know, we've got Piper, a little groodle. She's not that little anymore. She's definitely growing. And I've been, you know, you feed, obviously your algorithms work and do what they need to do.

15:42 Listening to you all the time? Absolutely. Yeah, so part of what's been coming up in my feed lately is all this stuff about like how to create train a groodle, how to, you know, tell you know, all these videos about groodles. And I'm like, Oh, my God, she is the quintessential groodle because one of the memes is like, how to create train your groodle. And then it's just a photo of your groodle in bed with its head, head on your pillow, under the covers, all tucked in with its little paws. Like, that is 100%.

16:12 This morning, Peter decided he'd have a little sleep in. And so I got up and I was doing a few things then, you know, decided it was time to wake up. So I, like, aggressively opened the bedroom door just to, like, make sure he, you know, he knew it was time for him to get up. And as I open the door, I look over onto the bed and then just, like, both tucked up on the same pillow, just like having a nice little snuggle. Yeah. I'm like, oh, my God. Oh my God. She's not getting off that bed for no one.

16:40 No, there's no chance. I think she sounds like she might have gone to bed with with Ollie tonight. Oh. I. Love that yes, she's a little cutie. Oh thank you, how? My rather large dog. He doesn't go upstairs at my place but has recently started going up and waking up Mason upstairs. What time does he go up? Mace reckons it was a sort of about 4/30, 5:00 in the morning. He's been doing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So then Mace is like, has been bringing him back down. But I'm like, he could just keep him up there.

17:09 He's like looking for you if he wants to stay. And he's like, can he get on my bed? And I'm like, well, probably, probably not, because Mason is the entire bed. He does you. Know. He's got a double bed though, so you should have room. But so I said yeah, if you want, that's totally fine. I don't, it doesn't bother me, but I just don't know that he'll stay. But yeah, there's nothing better than a kid having that dog in their. Bed. I love it. It's so. Cute. Yeah. I mean, gosh, if Chris will do it then go for it.

17:36 But I mean, have fun. You don't get much bed left. They'll have to fight each other for the for the real estate, the bed real estate. Yeah, I mean, go on the king bed and myself with him, with Griz. It's like, no, no, no, you're off. Yeah, bugger away because he has to touch you too. Like he's got to have his leg on your head on you. So yeah, no thanks. And that's a heavy leg and a heavy head. It's rather large, yeah, yeah. Oh Grizz bless. Oh, he's 40. 4 Yep, we've been doing a bit of home improvement and home renovations.

18:07 We are, you know, as time goes on your needs change with kids and stuff. And so we've decided we're going to, we've got like a little al fresco area outside and we've decided we're going to enclose it and step, like put some cafe blinds or whatever. Because I'm like, as the kids get older and their friends come over, am I actually going to want stinky boys in my house? No. You want an outside when I can shove them outside? Yeah. Yes, and watch the footy out there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So step one of that today was getting ATV for outside and installing that.

18:42 Well, I think thank God there were no video cameras watching Peter and I installing this TV because we were just screaming at each other. No, you never do that. And. Then at the end of it, I said to him, I'm like, is this TV gonna stay on the wall? And he's like. It's really, really confident. Very, very assured. He's like, I'm sure it's fine. I mean, I think it is fine. We've given it a big old. We'll pull on a push on it, yeah. Yeah. But yeah, it's just, it really made me stop though and think about Oh my God.

19:16 Like, yeah, our house is changing, our needs are changing, what was fit for purpose once is no longer. And it's all getting a bit marred. I know. They're growing up. Yeah, I. Hate it. I. Hate. It just, it's just awful. And then we were talking before about when they're going to start driving and all of that sort of stuff like it's too soon, it's. Way too soon. I feel like. My niece recently turned 14 and I was like, no, no, no, no, no, no, she's 3, right? Like that's where I'm at still. Yeah, yeah, they're little, little not OK with this teenage stuff like looming on us.

19:53 No, it's in high school and all that. I know, yeah. It's just terrifying, yeah. It's a whole new world. It really. Is so one of our one, someone wrote to us a message recently on saying how that she's got really young two boys, the same as us, but young like kids now 3 year old kind of stuff. And I, I said to her that it's, it's, we can just absolutely attest to the fact that it will absolutely get different. It's not gonna get any better. I think it just changes all the time. But it's, I mean, I'll look back and kind of go, there's like moments where I go, oh, I wish it was back when they were that little.

20:33 But I think about it then more so and then go actually, no. I'm glad we've got half back. Yeah. I think about the physicality of what life was like when the kids were that age. And I'm like, oh, that was really exhausting, So exhausting. But then it just gets mentally. Now it's. Like, if you're just a taxi driver, it's permanent sports and going from one place to another. And how are we gonna logistically manage all of these? Yes. And then school work and everything else that comes a lot. It's a lot.

21:01 Yeah. Yeah. It never. Ends and people with even older kids than ours say the same thing. It just gets different. It doesn't get easier. It just gets different. Yeah, this is what we've got to look forward to. Speaking of people who've been in contact, we've got some shout outs for today. So we've got Tennille, Tanki, Meg from WA and Tara Bethune who sent us a really, really, they've all, sorry, sent us really lovely messages, I think on Instagram. So thank you so much for reaching out. It's very much appreciated.

21:33 Love reading all of the messages and and interacting over there. It's it's. Awesome. Yeah, keep it coming and keep telling us what you want. Yep, more than happy to hear it. Any suggestions you've got? Yeah, bring them on. We've got lots of things in the pipe works, but we're, you know, open to suggestions. Always all right, let's get into it. I think I feel like we're stalling to get into we might be Part 2. We're recording this on the same day as we did Part 1. So it's been a a big night. It's.

21:59 A long 1, long 11's, just, you know, petering off. So yeah, I'll be ready to drive once. Yeah, yeah, that'll be OG, OG. No worries. Yeah. All right. So we are today talking about, we're going into the second part of this two parter about the family murders in South Australia, in Adelaide. Now, if you haven't listened to the first episode, you really do need to go back and listen. There's there's a lot, a lot. And also we're not going to really be going over any of that. So you'll need the context in order to understand what's going on.

22:35 Not in this episode. For sure. Okay, so we basically left off last episode. There were multiple men and boys who'd been kidnapped, brutally murdered, their bodies left just to be basically discarded on the side of the road or over a bridge or whatever it was. And at this point, although a lot of information has been given to the police, they're not really putting anything together. And it actually took the death of a fairly high profile boy in order for this to kind of all come together. Which I mean, it's sad that that was the case, but thank fuck it was because I can't even imagine where this would have gone had that not actually occurred.

23:18 I completely agree. Yeah, yeah, it's it's kind of actually scary where this would have led very much if if this wasn't where it kind of. I mean, I don't think, I don't think it's yeah, I think we'd be silly to say that this was overdue to this. I think there's definitely victims beyond. Agreed. But at least there was someone held a candle ball after this point and there's people looking at things. That's true. That's very, very true. Yeah, so we're going to start off today's episode with the murder of Richard Kelvin.

23:55 Now Richard was the son of a very, Yeah, a very well known Adelaide news anchor. Well, at. This point in his career, he was only fairly new. Rob Kelvin, he was he'd been on he'd been doing sort of new sports reports and things like that, but he wasn't he'd only just started in in 1983, which is when we pick up this bit here with his son that year he had started reading the news as a permanent position at the desk he. Must have. So I mean, this happened in the middle of that year. So obviously in that first half of the year he'd garnered quite in a massing of supporters then because he was quite hope high profile, like as in people, everyone knew who he was.

24:44 Yeah, yeah. And he'd been on the TV for like considerable. So I think I think he might have started in 70, 8, something like that, OK, doing like sports reports and things like that and other and other gigs. But it wasn't until 1983 that he was actually reading the Channel 9 news, OK, As a permanent gig anchor. Yeah. He's an anchor. So this was, Yeah, his first year doing that. He, I mean, he retired in 2010. Yeah. But this was his first year as that role, in that role. Not to know he wasn't. Yeah.

25:11 Not to say he wasn't known until this point. Like, they don't obviously come out of nowhere. He's been doing other gigs and then they've gone. Hey, it's your turn now. Yeah, you're up for it. But yeah. So he was only feeling new to the role, though, in that sense. Yeah, Yeah. So unfortunately his 15 year old son was subjected to what you know, the absolute horrific torture that we described in last week's episode. So in this is in 1983, around the 5th of June, I think it was in 1983. Now when we talk about these kinds of crimes and we talk about the escalations, I definitely think that's where things were going here.

25:52 And what I mean by that is that we had several of these victims that we spoke about last week. Some of them were kept for days, some of them were murdered and discarded, you know, on the same day. So where this one differs, and is that unfortunately for Richard's sake, he was kept for five weeks before he was murdered. But I know, I think there's a there is a difference in this one in that, yeah, he was kept a hell of a lot longer. But I mean, there was a lot of publicity when he went missing, right?

26:28 Because of who his dad was. He was, he was immediately all over the news. I find it interesting and we can get to it when we get to where he's where his body was found of like that. Some of the things were done to previous bodies were not done to his. But I'm I dare say he endured a hell of a lot for a longer period of time. Yeah, I think, I think that kind of came out find interest Topsy as well. But yes, I agree, I agree with what you're saying. So the way that this all came about in relation to Kelvin, in relation to Richard's disappearance and subsequent murder.

27:07 So on this particular date, he was a very sporty young man, loved playing footy and he had actually had a footy game earlier that day. He'd come home, one of his mates had come over and they were, they'd actually gone to the local, like it's literally around the corner from the House of footy Oval and they've gone there with Rob. So with his dad, his dad had had a bit of a kick with them. He'd gone home and they'd sort of finished off what they were doing and they went back to the Kelvin family home.

27:37 Now it came time for his friend to go home and so so Richard decided to walk his mate to the bus stop and which was like literally 60 meters down the road. Something like that. It's really not. Really. Yeah. Not really. Basically at the end of their St. Yeah. And in doing so, his mom was basically said to him, all right, quickly, you can go and drop him off, but then you've got to come straight back home because I've got dinner on the stove and it'll be ready by the time you get back. Yep, you can't.

28:07 Don't rely. Yeah. Yep, your dinner will be in the bin if you're not back in time. Yep. Fair. Yeah, except in this instant. Wow. So basically the next that we know is that a witness who lives in the street heard a cry, a scream out for help. He then heard a car door slam. And this bit kind of got me. And I'm not, I don't know whether this is true or not or whether it's an embellishment of the truth. But he he is a really light exhaust going and he identifies the car by the sound of the exhaust. Oh, I didn't know that, I said.

28:44 That was a really loud exhaust, but OK. And he's like, oh, that's the exhaust of a HQ Holden Commodore or Colden, whatever. OK. And so I don't, I don't know if you can do that, because apparently it had quite a distinct sound. Some people who are really sport are really car orientated. Maybe I don't know, I actually don't know whether that's even possible. But anyway, that's that's where the report, you know, I've seen that reported in several places. Yeah. And as a female voice kind of identified too that they would, they heard high pitched.

29:15 High pitched, Yeah. Female ish voice. I was heard. Yeah, yeah. So at the time, Kelvin was wearing a dog collar around his neck. This just kind of, I think I feel like it kind of gives a sense of his age, like his 15 years old playfulness of it kind of a bit of a sign of the times as well. I remember I've actually got a very funny story about a dog collar when I was a little girl. We as a family lived in Mexico for a few years. And my brother got really, really, really sick when we got there, like, you know, dealing with all of the sicknesses that come from living in a third world country.

29:57 And he got, yeah, really, really sick. And we, we got there and we had this, they're very big into their concerts and stuff. And we had a Christmas concert. We had to wear a white outfit. And then we got given colour belt that we had to wear, and I think mine was red, and Matthew had to have a green one. Yeah. And mum was like, I couldn't find a Greenbelt anywhere for Matthew, but because he'd been so sick, he was so sick that Mum was able to find a green dog collar that fit around his way. I mean, it's funny now, but at the time you look back at the photos, oh, God, you're really sick.

30:34 You're really, really awful. But anyway, that just reminded me of that. But I do remember, like at the I, you know, in certain kind of scenes, like kids did that it was just kind of an expression. Yeah. I don't know. And this later came out a little bit too of like it was a bit of a joke like that he was wearing it. It was a bit of. A prankster, right? Yeah, yeah. And it was the family dogs collar. Yeah. Like, and it was kind of just a bit of a joke that he was having that he was wearing it so. And I think he'd done it before.

31:01 It was a funny little bit. Yeah, Yeah. So this is just horrific. So obviously he doesn't come home. No. And again, immediately, I mean, mum and dad go out looking for him. He's nowhere to be seen. They again, immediately contact the police, put on them. They did the right thing. They've reported him as a missing person. Yeah, I think as you said, because of the high profile nature of Rob and his. Yeah, I mean. His profile in the. Right, Wrong. Whatever his dad being in the position he was in, I think you've got my real high media.

31:36 Contact work and get this out there to anyone. I mean he. Found it. You know easier than anyone else to be able to obviously get this out through the media. And it was He went easily. Do whatever you could. Totally, totally. I don't. I feel for the families who couldn't get this kind of level of attention to their child's missing, but this family did and for whatever, like, you know, that's as you want to see that, but it happened. Yeah. So everyone was aware of him missing. It was highly publicized.

32:04 Yeah. Which I Yeah. I then find it that just a bit of an interesting as to. I don't know. I just question whether. I mean, clearly the people who've taken him know he's missing and who he is and pair that up, surely, do you think? Yeah, yeah, they know who they've got. And I wonder whether. They know who they've got. Yeah. And I just wonder whether like, did they, I mean, yeah, well, you don't know whether he was targeted in any particular reason. Well, I can't imagine he was targeted. The only reason I say that is how would they have known that in that 60 seconds?

32:33 Probably. This is it. I think it was a. It was random. And then they were like, oh fuck, we fucking kidnapped a high profile child here. Yeah. But then do you think that added to the fact that he was kept alive for SO? Long I think it meant he was treated differently. I do. I think that's, and I really honestly think it's why he was kept for so long was because there was things they wanted this, you know, they wanted to do to him that they held back. Yep. Physically, you know, from those things like the, you know, cutting up the body, et cetera.

33:05 So I think things got held off because, and therefore, unfortunately, I think he would have been abused more heavily sexually and all those sorts of things. And I think he would have the torture in that sense would have been way probably potentially worse than the the previous victims in that sense. Yeah. I just that's who I'm my feeling is on this one that they. I I feel the same way, like I think that because they held him for so much longer, I feel like the brutality of the rapes that he endured and all of the sexual trauma.

33:34 But there's also another significant difference to this one in that so we'll say his body was found seven weeks after he went went missing and that it was proven by using maggots, etcetera, the decomposition when his body was found as to that, he'd been probably dumped maybe two weeks prior to them finding the body, but his body hadn't had it had been washed down like the other bodies, but he'd been redressed in the clothes that he was. That he'd seen in including the dog. Collar yeah, all that put back on him whereas as we said the previous victims they had been put in different clothing now we'll get to it as to why that's significant like kind of in terms of how that caught out someone but I really honestly believe that there were certain people involved in this at that point who went oh I'm out I'm not participating in this so that.

34:32 Yeah, because he was so. So high profile someone's that people have backed away from this. I agree. And then the person who's left with dealing with it has then treat has done like putting the same his clothes back on being the same clothes he had. Yeah. Has is linked to that. You know what I mean? Yep. I fully, I think you've, I think you're right. Yeah. I I agree with you wholeheartedly. When the autopsy was done, they found that he died of massive lot, massive blood loss due to anal injury. So injury to his anal cavity.

35:06 Yeah. They also found that he'd suffered severe blows to his head, none of which were likely to cause his death. No, they were inflicted pre mortem because one of the hemorrhages. So what they think had happened was that he'd actually been tortured for all of the weeks that he was missing prior to his death because a couple of the brain hemorrhages that were caused by these blunt force traumas to his head had actually started to resolve. So they know it had been they'd probably been inflicted fairly early on after his kidnapping.

35:41 Or maybe that's how they to get him in the car. Or once he'd started screaming, maybe that's how they stopped him from screaming. He did also have a tooth that had been knocked out. Now they believe that that occurred either very close to before he was he died, or just after he died. Okay, yeah, yeah. Again, trying to subdue him. That's an interesting 1, isn't it? I wonder what happened there. Yeah, the autopsy also showed traces of alcohol, Mandrax, Noctec, Amytol, Valium and Rohypnol in his system.

36:16 Yeah, I find that interesting that he was kept for the longest and then and obviously they've had they've used varying drugs across the time or whatever that was left in his system. Yeah. Yeah. There was other forensics found with him, which is what I was getting out with the clothing. No, yeah, no, yeah. So on him they found hair fibres and some other clothing and and material fibres in his clothing that they immediately, you know, went and took to the the lab to go and have looked at, which was significant and come up later.

36:51 Which really is interesting because if the clothing had been switched out, those fibres wouldn't be there, which is really interesting. In terms of the MO it really is and it and it ended up being a little bit, you know, after the undoing. Yeah, that's it. So with Richard Calvin's murder, as we said, it got was so high profile and in the news, I think the police finally had to like kind of go, we need to do something. And they did sort of kind of get off their asses a bit and they went and looked at these drugs that were in his system and they found that with particularly the mandrax, which was so an such unusual drug and it was quite restricted.

37:30 There was only a certain number of prescriptions that have been written for that drug in the whole of the state. And so they looked at what names were on prescriptions for this drug recently, in recent times. And lo and behold, a name popped up that had popped up for previous cases of this. MO was being our very, very best friend, Bevan Spencer Von Item. Now interestingly, he had in the previous five years to Richard's murder, he had been prescribed over 5800 Mandrax tablets he had doctor shopped in order to get those prescriptions.

38:10 He would literally go to multiple chemists pharmacies in one day to have the prescriptions filled. Yeah, I think he had like two or three, four in a day. Yeah. At different pharmacies, Yeah, yeah. And because there were no electronic records at the time, it's not like it flagged anything in the system now. At the time, I think it was around 1980, you were saying that the script for Mandrax was restricted, and what it meant was that nobody could actually be on it for more than about six months without needing special permission.

38:42 Yeah. And he didn't have that. So he was writing all these. He was writing those scripts. For him, we actually don't know. No, there's been a couple of doctors named and mentioned, but yeah, with this case, a lot of names then all of a sudden disappear off things too and get suppressed and. And the other thing is nothing's been proven, so we don't actually know. This hasn't actually that side of things hasn't actually been tested. And I find that really interesting because to me, I think a prescription, I mean, I know they're not digitally tracked like we have them today.

39:16 It's a legal document though. Yeah, but surely there is somewhere where these scripts would be in a archive box at a pharmacy or I don't know. Have to keep them for it's probably seven years. So, I mean, within this time frame, you know, you're not talking that we've gone back to a cold case. I mean, now we are. But at the time, yeah, surely there was they were finding that. I mean how they have they found his name on a prescription? On that same prescription would be the doctor's name, surely? Yeah, absolutely.

39:41 So percent. Surely they can't we. When I say we all, most people will remember the old handwritten scripts with the yellow piece of paper that the pharmacist would keep. I'm sure that the police, the police would have had the ability to go right, contact all pharmacies in the surrounding area and and tell them if you have a script from the path from you need to go through your files and find any scripts for Mandrax that you've had in the last two years say and send them in. Surely that's something they have an ability for, to be able to then collect all them up and go, right.

40:12 Well, that's a different person. There's one for Bevin Scott. Yeah. And there's that name on there and. I I don't know how in depth this investigation. This is it. I don't think there was, however, like any investigation. Really. Quite, quite possibly. But it did mean that they now were like, OK, well we've got someone to go and have a chat with. At least, yeah. So four days after they've they've found the body for Kelvin, they do excuse me, bring Bevin's Spencer Vine item in for a chat. So they do move quickly from that point, which I just find that interesting that it took a high profound kid for them to finally jump on it that quickly, but they did.

40:47 So the police interview von Einem and they asked him what he was doing at the time. And he's like, oh, no, I was at home. Yeah, the flu. Now, interestingly enough, Mr. von Einem lived at home with his mommy. He did bless. Yeah, he did own other properties though. Oh. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But he loved his mum so much.

41:12 I love my kids, but fuck me, they're living with me when they're in there. Oh, how old was he at this point? He was 49 and 46. Yeah, he was in his, like, late 50s.

41:21 OK, we'll talk about him in a minute. Yeah. So yes, he's like, oh, no, it couldn't possibly have been me. I had the flu. I was in bed. And now everyone knows a man with the flu. So the police were probably. Oh, yeah, mate, you're probably on your deathbed. Not fair. No. But what they did do is they were able to do a search of his house or the house that he shared with his mum and they found a bottle of Mandrax which was prescribed to him, which he said that he hadn't taken for years because he used to take it to help him sleep.

41:50 And then he was able to get other things to help him sleep. He. Stated at that point when they found that bottle that that's the only drug he ever took. He didn't have any other drugs in the house. When they looked through now, was it his wardrobe? Yeah, there was a like a the back window sill, like a sill at the back of the wardrobe. And they found a bottle of Noctec. Funny that. Isn't that interesting? The police. Was hidden. Like it wasn't like he was out in the open at all. Whereas the the Mandrax was out in the open, it was in his medicine cupboard, like behind his mirror in his bathroom that wasn't hidden.

42:25 And also did hidden and it had a prescription like it had it written on it, like Paddy's name on it had to be Van. I'm on it. Yeah. Yeah. So no query. No, like, you know, Oh, no, I don't take that. That's not mine. No. Yeah, it is. The police were really suspicious about three things that happened when they first interviewed him. The first thing was that he said he wouldn't answer any questions without a lawyer. Yep. OK. Now, at the time, that might have been suspicious. I see. Yeah, I mean, I find.

42:54 I feel like we have said to people before, if we ever got interviewed by the police about something that they suspected us of. You should have you should have a lawyer up, lawyer up, lawyer up. It doesn't make you. Guilty. I don't either. No. It doesn't show guilt, but the police took it as a sign of guilt. Yeah, when the second thing was when they asked him if he'd murdered Kelvin, he said it would actually be unethical to do so. He didn't say. He didn't go. Oh, no, I didn't do it. No, it wouldn't.

43:23 That's what someone who didn't do. It would be an unethical thing to do. Yes, it would be an unethical thing to do when you fucking done it. Yeah, yeah. Very interesting wording. Very interesting. Psychopath. Never denied it then. Oh, yeah, so sorry. You've already mentioned the other thing that made him suspicious, which was the drugs. Yeah, yeah. I mean having them. And having the knock tech hidden, like, seriously. Yeah. Now the police kind of let him go at this point. There was nothing really hard, no hard evidence to really keep him on.

43:54 And he actually had a holiday planned. Yeah. He was going to the Soviet Union and to the United Kingdom. Now, before he went on this trip, he decided to sell his car. Yeah. Very fascinating. What Car did he have? Well, that was a Ford. It was a Ford, Yeah. Now, OK, so the police like interesting. But what did he do before he sold it? Do you? Did you read that? Oh yes, what did? He do. He painted his boot the boot of the car and he cleaned it. Oh, he cleaned it like but he then painted over it with paint.

44:30 Oh yeah, right, the boot. The whole boot, the cow boot cavity. That's so sauce. So sauce. He did also. He said he he said he sold it because he needed the money for his holiday. Well. Yeah, I could come at that. That's not Yeah, you know, OK, But still we. Need to paint. But before he left to go overseas, he did allow the police to have access to his home and take samples of fibers from the house. I believe he they took some DNA from him or no, that was later. They did then. I'm pretty sure they did then, yeah.

45:02 So that they could then compare these to the fibres that they. Found hairs. And yeah, they took hairs, things like that. Yeah. So whilst he's off having his trip, the police are doing these investigate this further investigation and they do find a match between their hair on the jeans that was found on Kelvin's jeans to that matches 1 Island's hair. They found fibers on a jumper on the the T-shirt that that Richard Calvin was wearing that matched a cardigan that was in his wardrobe. And they also found carpet fibers that matched inside the house on the rug in the bedroom that were found on on Richard Calvin as well.

45:44 So basically when Vine came back from this holiday, I guess they really sort of put this on the table to him. Now, prior to all of that coming to the forefront, as I said, he denied any knowledge of of Richard Kelvin whatsoever. Yeah, all of a sudden he changes his story. Well, now they've got evidence he's he's like, what? The phone. Yeah, so he changes his story to say that, Oh yes, I just find this really fucking stupid. Apparently he was driving along that night that he supposedly had the flu.

46:20 Now, he didn't have the flu. He was driving along looking, I'm going to a fish and chip shop to get pick up dinner. And when he spotted Richard Kelvin walking down the road and he was looking for a car park and he spotted him. And somehow they became it got into a conversation about Richard Kelvin having been bullied at school and that he was bisexual.

46:43 Wait, what? Like how? How'd that just come up so naturally between complete and other strangers? In 30 odd seconds. Yeah, like as you're looking for a car park. You just got a kid and yeah. That's the conversation that you naturally fall into. What? Fuck me. Whatever mate. Oh, it's. It's an absolute joke. So he claims that then, you know, because they've just literally bonded, you know, in this amazing moment of having conversation between a 50 year old man and a 15 year old kid, that, you know, Richard Kelvin just gets into the car with him and they drive back to his house so that he can show Richard Kelvin his harp in his bedroom.

47:23 Yeah. So, and whilst they're sitting there and listening to this harp, Von Inan puts his arm around Richard because he's comforting him because he's talking about him potentially being bisexual and, you know, and being bullied. And that's where the fibres came off of his cardigan. And also then that they sat on the floor for a brief moment too. And that's why they'd be carpet, rug fibres, rug fibres on him. But he was there for two hours and then he dropped him off. Well, he didn't drop him at home.

47:55 Though no I dropped him off in 20 dollars. Yeah, and then gave him 20. Dollars to get home to get home, yeah. So that's not quite kind of adding up because. Oh don't. No shit. Yeah, well, not even like, you know, physical evidence wise, because what they said was that the amount of fibres that were found in like, oh God, I had it written down here somewhere. There's 248 fibres or something found on on Richard Kelvin and a very small portion of those were from his home. And I want to say off the top of my head, I'm talking like say 50 of the 248 with like 50 of those were from his home where he had spent a considerable amount of his day.

48:40 And the other 150 odd 200 were from von Einem's home. Now, so scientifically what they were saying is that there is no physical way that he had spent only two hours in that home to have that number of fibres. It had to have been a far longer a period of time for him to have that amount of fibres on him and carrying them to the point where those clothes were then put on him again to then be thrown out in the the Bush and let kept there, left there for 2-2 weeks before being found. Yeah. Should we talk a little bit about who von Inam is or was?

49:16 Yep. Do we have to? So he was, oh, he's an absolute fucking piece of shit. He was born on the 29th of May 1946 and he was an accountant slash bookkeeper. I think he was a pretty fucking shit poor accountant. So he was doing bookkeeping. Like I don't know that anyone wanted to employ him as an as an accountant. He first came to public attention in May of 1972. This is important as we go on with this story. Yeah, he came to the aid of a man by the name of Roger James, who was thrown into the River Torrens during the murder of another friend of theirs named George Duncan.

49:55 He was a professor at the university. Yes, So very sort of prestigious in, in terms of where he was at in his field. Yeah, we'd only been brought out here from the. UK, I think it. Was he'd only been here for about 7 weeks when this occurred. Now we've all watched Bondi Rescue and we all know people from the UK can't swim. Sorry, no offence to anyone from the UK, but you know, we grew up as Australians, everyone knows how to swim. I think we don't really get the gist that in the UK it's not as much of a thing like you have to, it's not like everyone does swimming lessons like you do in Australia.

50:30 So this poor bloke, this poor George Duncan was thrown into a river, unable to swim, and he ended up drowning. Now he'd been beaten. Mm Hmm. And it was, it was quite a horrific. No one's ever been convicted of this crime, no. But there is a strong belief that police were involved in this. This is where it gets real. Real. Shady. Yeah, real, real shady. I mean, at the time being gay was illegal. In South Australia. So in 17/19/75 they were actually one of the first in Australia though who legalised being gay.

51:07 Which can you even believe? I know it doesn't seem like that long ago. It doesn't, and it's not big enough ago. No, I know. So, yeah. So 1975 in Adelaide, they legalised it being gay, but so in 1972 it was illegal to be gay, which is just fucked up. But yeah, so this was what was going on. Apparently this was like happening on the regular that it was kind of, it was actually had a name. And I'm going to say it and I really don't want to offend anyone, but this whole thing of throwing people in the river was called Poof singing.

51:35 Like it's just. Revolting, absolutely horrific. Like the so gross that you read in relation to this case. You're just like fuck me. It's so gross I can't even. No, the fact that's what it was named even like publicly. Just oh, I was in the papers. Yeah, that was like the headlines of it, like, oh, I can't. I just it's horrible, but. Basically what von Inam says is that he was driving past, he saw this happen and he stepped in to intervene, and he did actually save Roger's life. Well, yeah, he had a Roger did break his leg, so von Inam did pull him into his car and took him to the hospital.

52:09 So yeah, he did help him. Yeah. He. Helped him. It's just fascinating. But anyway, this is the first time his name was kind of in the ether. Yes, out there. But I mean, there's been also, he's been interviewed and this has been corroborated that von Einem, as he grew up, was molested by a friend of his father's. Yes, yes. And his mother has said, yeah, that was what happened. It was very that interesting scenario when it happened. His dad couldn't have cared less than it happened. He was in the house apparently when it would take place and he basically just told him to go wash his hands and be, you know, that's that's that he was only.

52:50 Seven years of age when this happened, too. Yeah, we know. That's such a critical time in a young person. 'S life, yeah. So I mean, yeah, he hasn't. He didn't have a great childhood in that sense. A lot of trauma. Yeah, but he's still a psychopath. Oh, absolutely, absolutely. Like, there's so much there. Yeah, so, so much there. Yeah. OK, so we've got now we've got basically a lot of circumstantial evidence that connects the death of Richard Kelvin with Bevan Spencer von Einem. And it gets to the point where the police are able to arrest him for the murder, and he is set for trial because of course, he pleads not guilty, of course, which that in and of itself just fucking gets me.

53:49 Yeah. Like mate, there's a lot here pointing to the fact that you did this. Oh, absolutely, I think, and that's but that's the narcissism in him and whatever I like it that he honestly believed, you know, if I didn't do this, you know, and I'll just oh, they'll they'll I'll be smarter than them, Yeah, and I'll convince them all and yeah and do that he didn't get up at trial at least things and speak. No, they did tender a statement from him. Unsworn statement, yeah. So there was a bit of a weird thing that went on there with with it not being a sworn statement.

54:18 So he was still not even. Beholden to what he. Said in that which is. Interesting. Yes, but I think that was because of the change in his story to match the evidence. Really. This is the thing. Yeah, his mother gave testimony and. She also had changed her story a bit to fit. Yes, with it exactly. And so she was a really unreliable witness and I think the jury really saw straight through her. Yeah, I think. Did the trial go on for like 5 weeks or something? Believe so. Is it? And it took the guilty?

54:52 The guilty? It took the jury only 7 1/2 hours to deliberate. Yes. And on the 15th fish of October. Oh, no, sorry. On the 6th of November in 1984 they found him guilty that he was then sentenced to life in prison. Originally he was given a 24 year non parole period but that was then appealed by SA's Attorney General. That was overturned and it ended up being it was increased to 36 years of non parole. I did love though that when Items defence team they did appeal the sentence and the conviction at one point.

55:33 OK, I love their reasons for going. Go, go. So the, the reasons for appealing we're on the basis of the fact that there was evidence in the trial that was given that, that, that basically what his idea was this whole conversation he had with with Richard about him being bisexual and all that sort of thing, right? That what the prosecution did was they put people in the stand, like his girlfriend, for example, and other people in his life who said that he was not, he was absolutely heterosexual and all these sorts of things.

56:03 So basically they were claiming that that's not true, a true reference of it, because he said the opposite. Jesus, they didn't. He. They also appealed on the basis that von Ornam's own homosexuality had been used in the trial and that that was, you know, a negative thing against him. OK. Well, that could be seen as discrimination. Yeah. So that was a little bit maybe, but like the biggest thing that they did appeal on was the fact that von Inam had used a birthday party that he said he attended, which there was someone who in his family who had come and said had been on the stand and said, yes, he was absolutely at that party from about 6:30 to about 10:30 on the day that the.

56:43 So basically, they believe that his body was dumped approximately on the 10th of July. Now, this could have also been the 9th of July or the 11th of July. There was, you know, a little bit of leeway there, but because of the fact that this person testified that for four hours he was at a birthday party. Therefore, according to one item, he couldn't have drop the body off, and so he couldn't have murdered him. Yeah. So it was completely thrown out. Yeah. And no, go away. The the the birthday party evidence was clear.

57:19 Like, OK, you didn't do it between those hours, but still have done it the next morning, even on your way to work. What they? They think that it happened in the dark. Yeah. So. So there's still like after 10:30. That's probably pretty dark. You could. Have done it at in the morning. You know, you could have done the morning of the 10th. Or the night of the night, or. Gone after 10:30 at night or, or as I said, early hours of the morning of the 11th. They're still saying that that's possible too.

57:45 Yeah. But yeah, so it was thrown out. Yeah. They also did try and bring charges to him on two of the other murders that we've discussed. Yeah. So Alan Barnes and Mark Lagley, it was that they tried to bring charges on and they did get to a point where they they had, they're all sort of prepared to go in. However, there was some stuff that came up in that there was a particular witness, Mr. B, that they had used to get evidence on all of this, which we'll we'll talk more about Mr. B in a moment. Oh, yeah.

58:17 Oh, yeah. But so they're going to use his testimony in his in, in this next trial. However, what they couldn't use in that trial was anything to do with Richard Kelvin. So they couldn't link Richard Kelvin's case and murder. And that could not be brought up at all in this next trial for the other two. So it became really difficult to get Mr. B's testimony in as well, and a lot, a lot of other evidence. Linked and related, and what it meant was if they kept out the things that they had to keep out, they actually didn't have much of a case as much.

58:50 More so, yeah, they ended up having to drop those charges and he never was convicted on any others or tried or tried from the others. Yeah. So which is really, I mean, I can, as I said to you, I said earlier, I can understand why that young Peter was not included in that. Yeah, I can understand why he wasn't included in that one. But it's, it's so sad that there's not convictions over over the other. Yeah, ones that were. To this to this day, let's talk a bit more about Mr. B, yes. Mr. B So let's actually talk about the family a little bit because so the family, which I just hate that it's being called that because, you know, you think about a family and you think lovely things and connection and closeness and niceness and kindness.

59:39 Which a lot of like, yeah, people investigate this, Do they dislike it being called that? But I mean I understand the like why it's? Being hard, I get it. So it was the reason it's called that is just because the lead investigator, the lead police investigator on this case was talking to the media one day and he's like, oh, it's just like one big happy family. We just. Want to break up this happy family have been like because all along and we haven't sort of touched on this that there was a lot of evidence that to prove that Mister that Bevans put Spencer annulment did not move like did not operate on his own.

1:00:12 No, from the very first one from Alan Barnes, they always believed that there was more than one person who committed that. And then so even though they didn't link the two well. I think they know that because there were a lot of witnesses that saw multiple men in a car, yeah, that were then picking up these hitchhikers, which was the MO for getting these people, these men into the cars or these boys into the cars. So they know there was more than one person involved. There's other evidence they've got as well.

1:00:40 I mean, some of which hasn't actually even been reported. But the police, like we know that it's not just one person. No, I mean, look, the youngest being 14, the oldest being 25 of who we've just looked at those five, yeah, cases, I mean, one person on their own trying to subdue a, you know, a person of that age and that strength. Yeah. Particularly a 50 odd 60 year old man being one item. Yeah. He didn't do this on his own. It was very clear from the get go there was more people involved. Yeah.

1:01:08 So. Yeah, the family was rumoured to be roughly 12 or 13 people. It's really. Unknown, but many of those names have been suppressed. There's been some that have been released and we can talk about a few of. Them Yeah, yeah, I think, you know, in a lot of ways if you want to find things out on the Internet, you can find things out on the Internet. But yeah, it's just it's pretty horrific. Anyway, let's get into it a little bit more now. These the family is believed to have had involvement in over 200 or more like it's it's actually an untold number.

1:01:46 It really is, yeah. We don't actually know. And a lot of, you know, the speculation is that because the names of the perpetrators haven't been released, that might be holding some victims back because they think maybe they were the only one they don't want to come forward. Sort of thing. I'm not really part of that crew. I'm don't know if I was. Part of that so. But also there's also just the general shame of having been through that it's. An unknown number of people, yeah, who were, who were victims to these absolute pieces of shit.

1:02:19 So let's talk about Mr. B Yeah, Mr. B was a doctor. He is a very, very interesting man and I would not want him to be my doctor. He was a known associative of von Inams. He had kidnapped and raped men together, admittedly. Yeah, with von Inam, he admitted to being in the car when von Inam. He picked up hitchhikers and drugged them. I suspect he possibly had a hand in prescribing some of those drugs, given the fact that he was a doctor. He then said that they would give them a lot of alcohol and then they.

1:03:01 We said that Von Anam always had in the back seat of his car an esky which always had alcohol in it. And what Mr. B allegedly alleges is that in that alcohol was also then drugs. So that then so he would coax these young people into his car saying, hey, come on, come and have a drink. You know, we've got a drink in the back. You have have a drink because he said never did Von Anam drink those. So they weren't, they weren't drinks for him to be drinking whilst he was driving around or anything. They were to go to these young people who would get in his car.

1:03:33 Yeah, there's a story of a young man who had been, I think at a football game or something like that, and he was going to catch the bus home, but I think he'd missed the last bus or something. So he decided to hitchhike home, and he said he'd hitchhiked before and he felt like he knew how to do it safely and it was important to him that he hitchhiked. Like if someone turned around and picked him up, he wouldn't get in the car with them because he's like, I'm only going to get in the car with someone who's by chance is going the same way that I'm going.

1:04:04 Yep, Yep. And so on this particular night, he gets in the car, he's in the back seat because someone there was a driver and a passenger in the front seat. The driver says, Hey, we're going to a party. Would you like to come? I've got some drinks in the back. Make yourself make yourself comfortable. Now this young man had decided he was going through a bit of a health kick at the time. And he was like, oh, I don't, I don't drink. Von Inam insisted, opened the beer or whatever it was the the beverage for him, handed it to him.

1:04:34 But this boy didn't partake. This man didn't partake, didn't have anything, just kind of held the open drink. And it got to a point where things kind of really escalated. And he wanted. And von Einem was like, where do you live? And he's like, oh, just drop me off on this corner. That's fine. Yeah. And he was like, no, where do you live? And he's like, yeah, just down the way a bit, but he's fine. And it kind of went on like that. And I'm guessing von Einem actually got to a point where he was like, I actually can't be fucked with this anymore.

1:05:04 He dropped this eventually. This man was really scared, really, really scared. Dropped him off and as he got out of the car, Von Item then did a U-turn and went back towards the city again to try and find the victim and he said so that happened. It was kind of an isolated incident to him. He went home. He did this. This man did tell his mom about it when he got home. Was really weird. They kind of didn't do much. Actually, I think they did report it to the police, but nothing then really came of it because nothing really happened.

1:05:35 Yeah, but he suspected there was something in that beer. Yeah. Anyway, years and years and years and years later when Von Inam was on TV after being arrested for Richard Kelvin's murder, Yeah. He was like, Oh my God. That was the guy.

1:05:54 Whoa, yeah. Well, this is the thing. I mean, what they, they're sort of alleging is that this was a group of people who that's exactly what their whole MO was in that prior to the murders, you know, and this sort of thing. It was this whole scene of basically a delivery service in a lot of ways is what it was called in that people, certain people would drive around, pick up young boys, whether they were, you know, hanging out at gay bars or, you know, or hitchhiking that, you know, those sorts of things.

1:06:21 They would target these these kids. They would get them in the car with them, you know, voluntarily, probably, you know, come and have a drink with us. We're going to a party, you know, here, join us. Come party, party with us at this place. They would then take them in the car. They'd go to a house. And this is where the bigger names come into it in that they can't go out and meet these people themselves. They're they, they stay behind the closed gates of their home. That's it. But these young boys would then get dropped off to them.

1:06:49 These young boys would be then plied with alcohol and drugs. They would get raped and then wake up the next morning and not remember really what went on. But they're in this strange home. I mean they would they would be less. That's a date rape drug. That's, I mean it's not, but it's used as a date. Rape that way. But it's. Yeah. And so these boys would then wake up the next day and, you know, be released and let go. And that's the majority of what these, you know, these young men would have experienced.

1:07:15 Well, there are reports from the very few who have come forward to say that, like they'd wake up the next morning with a sore bottom. And, you know, the ones that then did have the courage to go to the hospital or go to seek medical attention were then told the next when they would did that, that they'd been raped. Like it's just, you can't even imagine it. It's just horrific. Absolutely horrific. Absolutely. These poor boys and these poor men. Yeah. Well, I mean, they were basically around the age of like that 16 to 18 kind of was typically the ages they were targeting.

1:07:55 I mean, there was a story that came out and this is all after the fact that these people have come forward. But it was, it came out that Alan Barnes, he actually was working as a delivery boy for a vending machine company and one of his clients was Bevan Spencer. One item. So this he was known to him and they were connections. And what one of Alan's friends had said was that what Bevan had said to the boys was, you know, if you want anything, you want drugs, right? And they, both of them were like, we're not really into that.

1:08:30 We don't really take drugs. But he was like, no, no, no, if you want anything at all, just bring me boys of your. Age, it's like a trade. It's so gross and it's like in trade of it would be, you know, like you could take give you whatever drugs you want, your party drugs and stuff and you can have all that and you just bring me other boys of the same age as you guys like to which they, you know, Ellen Barnes and his friend were like, no, not into that. No, no, no, no, but there was a whole scene of it that was going on.

1:08:58 And so Alan Barnes death being the start of these murders is interesting in that there was a link there to Bevin directly when you go right back to that stage. So I think that my personal opinion is that this was all going on in Bevin Spencer when I was all part of all this career that were, you know, you're dropping off young boys and it was, you know, delivering these boys to people. But he wanted something a bit more to it. Yeah, yeah. That that sort of escalated from as in from him as the sort of center of that, the center of that.

1:09:32 It's really interesting just when you were talking about Ellen then is that Mister B's sister testified in court that he had said that he was present when Von Inam, well, when the murder, that first murder occurred. Yeah, yeah, there there is a lot that's come out around, particularly Alan Barnes's murder. Yeah. There's a diary that has come forward and a man by the name of Peter, sorry, Trevor Peters. Yeah, who he passed away now. He was in sort of the gay scene, all that sort of stuff. He was an openly gay man.

1:10:09 And his brother has come forward with these Diaries after he passed away. These Diaries are incredible. And we don't know the half of the what's in there because so much of has been redacted, has been suppressed. Yeah, but he tells a story in his Diaries, particularly around another character who was Dennis and Dennis who was a hairdresser, well known hairdresser in the in that area in that scene. So and he just happened to be he was Dennis and Dennis was this man was Peter Trevor Peters hairdresser, but he was also Bevan Spencer Von Adams hairdresser because he would get his hair dyed because he was grey from a very young age.

1:10:50 So he would go along and get his hair dyed. Now look gross. One day in particular when that when Peters was having his hair done, Bevan had come in and I was chatting away with Dennis and Dennis and what he overheard them saying was I'll just read it out here. He said I could hear this is straight out of his diary. I could hear Bevan and Dennis giggling and laughing and both saying oh how evil, oh it's evil. Dennis said this several times and I became curious as to just what it was they both found so interesting and entertaining and feeling that I was being left out, got out of the chair to investigate.

1:11:27 I found them huddled over a waist high table, directly behind the curtain. There was a group of photographs, Polaroids laid out on the table, maybe four or five or six of them, with Bevan holding more photographs in his hand. They both began to collect the photos quickly, but not before I saw them. The photographs were of a young man, a young, attractive blonde haired man lying on his side on the front seat of a car with his legs bent towards the steering wheel. Now they've redacted all the further information about those photos, but basically what you're saying what they what's happening here is Bevan is showing the hairdresser his work that he has done to Ellen in the in plain sight in this conversation there's.

1:12:10 No, there's no it. It's psychopathic, unbelievable. It's there's no remorse. No, in fact, they were laughing about it. Well, I mean, I have to say there's then a further little bit where Dennis and Dennis, he was, he's passed away now what in this he was in hospital and he was dying and his mate Trevor Peters was going to visit him regularly. And so at one particular visit, which is 4 days before he passed away, he took the opportunity to have a conversation with him about those photos again to see if he would get more out of him when he was about to die.

1:12:47 Because he realized immediately, well not immediately he realized that that those photos, he later recognized that person as being Alan Barnes from new stories etcetera. So he had already placed it together in his diary. There was more about that. But then he said to on this particular day he was at the hospital with, with Dennis and Dennis and he decided to ask him again. I asked him about the photographs. He told me that over the years that he spent at Adelaide's Beats and toilets, Bevan had shown him dozens of such photographs of of nude young men, more often than not with objects including bottles inserted well into their anuses.

1:13:22 Whoever, he said, smiling at me, he didn't remember there being any photos at the salon, ever. And if you know what's good for you, neither should you. Oh bloody hell. Yeah, so this is the thing. People aren't coming forward because I don't know what's going to happen to them if they do. I mean, this man never came forward. He wrote the Diaries, which good on him for putting it in there, but there's just so much more to it. And where? Where is it going to go now? I just don't know. I don't know that anything more is going to happen with this because like.

1:13:58 I mean, OK, so let's talk about who else have we got to talk about in terms of other known? Well, there was. Suspects. So there's a number of people who have been named since so. Steven. Sorry, oh, I didn't have him on my list. He's he's accused of supplying sedatives. I don't actually know much about him. No, there's not many. We do. Mainly I've got information from, like there's a trans woman by the name of Prudence Fern. Yeah. So she's also dead now. Yeah. The other ones I've got are Richard Brown, who is a magistrate.

1:14:36 Yeah. Don Storan, who was convicted, A convicted paedophile in Indonesia, who is very much linked to this and his name was mentioned in that diary. Yes, a number of times. Yep. Someone you mentioned earlier being Noel, Terence Brooks, who he's, he's deceased, but the biggest one who's come out and he's actually spoken is Lewis Turter. So he's his brother, was an Olympic gold medallist in cycling, but they don't speak anymore. So Lewis Turtle was in the in it. He was similar to Mr. B has come out saying that he was involved in these things prior to it becoming murder like he wanted.

1:15:16 He said he didn't take part in that, but he's saying he fully knows. That he knows the MO, he knows how they did it. He he was there. Yeah, He was living in a unit which was across the way from, I believe it was Prudence Furman, Where where she lives. That's right. And there was a unit that been been Bevan owned not far from there, and Prudence and Bevan would meet up at this unit with a young boy, rape him, do all those sorts of things to him and then let him go on the next day. So he spoke heavily about all of that.

1:15:50 He's, he's been quoted as saying Von Ornam brings boys over there to our place, but they left alive in the morning. What else? What's with it?

1:16:01 He reckons that there was at least half a dozen that he's seen, but they left pristine the next morning. Pristine after being raped and tortured for the night? Yeah, sure, sure. Drugged. Sure. OK. Pristine when? He was asked about the drugs of the boys and that was and that happening in the home, he said. Well, his reply to it was because I was a stupid fool, wasn't I? So Terta said he never faced any charges related to von Einem, but he had faced 2 gross indecency charges in Adelaide several years earlier.

1:16:35 So he was heavily involved in it and he's come forward and admitted to all those, but von Einem's never copped anything further in terms of charges for these other instances. But they. Tried to get some minor charge to stick on Von Adam with one of his testimonies or one of the one of his statements, but it just never stuck. I don't remember. Why? There's been things since, Yeah, they're completely separate, yeah, but. Oh yeah, no, that's not what I'm referring to. No, this is more things that came up after he sort of made a made a statement that just never stuck.

1:17:05 But then I kind of understand for a lesser charge, he why would you go down that path in terms of prosecuting von Einem again? Because The thing is, it's not even just von Einem getting more on him because I mean, he's got a life sentence, not, I mean, I as a the victims families. Yeah. You want your your child's name applied to that. 100% but at least you'd know that his killer's behind. Well, absolutely. But then The thing is, it's. So many others that need to be. Who else was involved? Yeah. So even if so, if von Einem was involved, we don't actually know if he's the one who actually perpetrated these murders.

1:17:39 Like to me, he's not the one who had the medical training. No, there are other a lot of other people implicated who did. Yeah. I mean, these what he did prior and what people are admitting to what he was involved in, Yeah, very much the rape and the torture sort of things. I can absolutely go, yeah, yeah, I can see he did that. Cutting off of the bodies. Yeah, cutting off of the bodies and that stuff. I don't know, Do I think he probably would have got off on it? Quite possibly because he's a psychopath.

1:18:06 But but I don't think he did it. I don't think he did that side of it. I don't think you know, That's why I reckon with Kelvin, those elements weren't there. Yep, and you think that's because people got scared like the other perpetrators got scared and everyone like fuck no I'm not fucking 10 foot pole. Yep, I'm out not touching this one. Yep. And so whoever that doctor was that did it to the other ones was like, Oh no, Yep, you can have that one to yourself. Yep. And I think he has had him to himself and I think he's had five weeks of doing awful shit to him and that's disgusting.

1:18:36 Yeah, I think. Yeah, but there I think that there's there's a whole network here that has not been brought down. Yeah. And have all gone about their time. And I mean, well, for example, it was Prudence and and there was a couple of other cross dressing or transvestites that were working within that group of people. They ended up moving when von Ornam went to prison, they moved to Sydney. Wow.

1:19:00 So what that? Yeah, yeah. Really interesting. That is really, really interesting. Yeah. Oh, my God. OK, so in prison, our little mate von Inam. Oh. He's this. I get really irked with this shit. It's Fox. He's so fucked up. So he raped an inmate when he was at Utila prison? Yeah, he then got done for. This is actually quite funny. Yeah, he was painting. He was doing paintings. Beautiful, beautiful. And painting them on gift cards and selling them to people. If it's 20 bucks, who the fuck you paid 20 bucks for that?

1:19:45 What? Police. These are like prison officers. Yeah. Why? What it's are they married? Because it's been done by painted by Von I. Know. Surely not, but I wouldn't also ever spend $20 on a greeting card for anyone. God. No. How much are they getting paid? No, it's just bullshit. But he got done for it. He got not. For it, he got three extra months in prison, I think. Oh no. That wasn't for that, no, That wasn't for that, no, But he did. He did get something for the. Commercial dealings that were sure dealings, that's right.

1:20:14 Commercial dealings while in while in he was. Charged with it but I don't know what kind of add anymore. Can you add any more to life? No, this bit's fucked. But he was actually charged with possession of child pornography for story, for written stories. Well, he. Originally was charged with producing those written documents, yeah. But it was proven that he didn't write them. Yeah. But I don't know how they proved that. Well, there was, it was handwriting experts and also fingerprints was there's.

1:20:45 Oh, OK. Yeah, there was genuine like investigation into it that did. But these stories depicted sexual acts between a man and a child. Like, Oh my God. So this is the way I kind of go like because 2007 ish right? Yep, he was potentially due for parole. Yes. Now he's never getting out, don't worry about that. But in some really random world where he genuinely was innocent, right? Which he's claimed all along he was innocent. You're due for parole, potentially, yet you're raping inmates and in the possession of child pornography.

1:21:21 Really. The upstanding prison inmate you need to be. Super guilty for the charges that you have mate. You're kind of just continuing your same shit. In prison, yeah. Think you are where you belong mate. Now, the bits that kind of get me with one item. All right, so let's talk about him in relation to the Beaumont case, the Beaumont disappearance. So Seven Network, the Seven Network in Australia have archived footage of a young man who's helping search a storm water drain. I think it was two or three days after the children disappeared.

1:21:58 Now in this footage there is a young von Inem. A von Inem look alike look alike. OK, sorry a Von Inem look alike and another young man. Yep, who matches the description of the man seen with the Beaumont children at the beach that day? That day. The day they weren't missing, yeah. Who? Go back and listen to our episode if you want to know who we think that. Is when you're talking, at least there's network, a network of people doing these things. Yep. Does that seem then out of possibility? Nope. Fuck no.

1:22:32 Nope, not at all. And we know that often times perpetrators will go back and be at the scene and look like they're helping out and really just picking out the chaos that they've created. Yeah, now. Von Inem got sick when he was in prison. Yeah. Unfortunately, didn't suffer long enough. We got about type 2 diabetes at one stage and they had to go into like a aged care prison. Yeah, it's an aged care prison, but he also, I don't even know he developed something. Yeah. And I actually don't care enough to look into that.

1:23:11 No, but I hope it was really painful death. But they unfortunately, no, they they knew his death was coming. Yeah. And so the police. Yeah, major crime detectives went down. Went down to interview him hoping that they would get a deathbed confession. No, and of course they didn't. No, of course they didn't. No, he died on the 5th of December in 2025 S not that long ago. No, six months ago. No, but he will, you know, five months ago, taken to the grave, all of his evil shit that he's done, we won't know any more about that.

1:23:43 It's such a shame. And I mean, look, we have journalists like Debbie Marshall who went in and had did interview him, I think twice. She did twice. Yeah. I mean she came out of that saying and he's a fucking Psych fan. Well, she said at the start he was like really nice, and then he snapped at her because he. She said something. He didn't lie. Yeah. He did, though, admit to her one little bit that he would never admit before. I believe that was something to do with the the dog collar that Calvin wore.

1:24:12 Yeah. And prior to that he was like, I don't know anything about dog collar, but he actually said that he remembered the dog collar and saying that on him. Mm hmm. So that's sort of a bit of. An initial ties, Yeah, well, it definitely ties him to it because I guess it was a report. It's not like that was an unknown thing. Well. There's the fact that he'd been questioned on on numerous occasions where he'd adamantly not not, don't know anything about it, don't know about it. Yeah. But in that moment went yeah, I, I know, I know it.

1:24:39 I've. I saw it on him, you know, like, yeah, put it, put himself in that, I guess more vulnerable position of admitting something. Yeah. But that was as close as he got to admitting to anything. Yeah. She didn't get much more out of him other than just AI guess a realization of a genuine psychopath in this. And so no question of his part in it. Yeah, but I mean, she's done incredible work. Oh, she's amazing. I mean, her her podcast. Oh, there's a a Foxtel show frozen up. Yeah, Frozen lies. Yeah, frozen lies.

1:25:10 Well worth a watch. But and that's and that she starts off really with another case altogether, which we will do another day. Yes, that's which all links back to this, which is how she sort of came into looking at the the family murders. Mm hmm. Yeah, but that's, and she's also got a podcast as well, but I can't think of the name of that at the moment. I feel like it's something different, the untold stories. Yeah, the So the untold story. So her book is called Banquet. That's right. Yeah. That I think the podcast's the same name.

1:25:38 Yeah, it's called Banquet, like the untold stories of the family murders or something like that. But the book is amazing. Yeah. I didn't get to finish reading it. Yeah. But what I've read so far is she's an amazing writer. Yes. And she you can just tell she's so passionate about this, like she all she wants is just. She's in for the. Films, yeah. And she's in it. She has come out and done interviews. She wants help from people who are willing to put their time and energy into this because a lot of things need to happen to uncover a lot of other things.

1:26:15 And yeah, I think her biggest challenge at the moment is trying to get the names out there and the suppression orders. She managed to. It was her lawyers that got five of them exactly brought out. So yeah, I mean, she's doing amazing work, but it's. Slow going. It's still not there yet. Yeah, but I have. She will not stop. To me, she's like a dog with a bone. She said that, you know, she's interviewed the victims families and she said you can't you actually walk away from that and not have it change your life forever and not you.

1:26:47 You just can't walk away as in she's like, I have to see this through. Like I, I can't. Not now that I've met the families. Yeah. Yeah, she just wants that, that, that. Yeah. Feeling of injustice, yes. That's. There's not I. Have to help them because they, they kind of, I think, you know, in some ways when von Inem went to prison, the police were like, well, yeah, we've got the guy. Yeah, legit think that's, this is where I kind of got someone, maybe in the police service, maybe allegedly, because why is this not being investigated more wholeheartedly?

1:27:22 They have lists of names. Why have they? Why have they been suppressed so long? But OK, let's say, OK, if they've been suppressed because you guys are investigating something, fine. Cool, cool, cool, but where's the investigation? Where are we at? What's going on with that? We need to actually see something from it 'cause according to everything now what was brought back to cold case detectives in 2007 and then closed again in 2010 with no further charges laid. So why? It's not solved, so it is still a cold case.

1:27:51 Absolutely. Unsolved case. Yeah, which I know they say, you know, yeah, close cases like this are never closed, closed, but it's not being actively looked at. So if they're not actively looking at anything, why are these names being suppressed then? Yeah, bring them out. Yeah. Let's see what, See what comes. See. Like shake the trees. See what falls. And I'm sorry if these are just big name people and you're worried about their reputation. Oh, fuck off. I'm sorry. I'm so over that bullshit, that men's club of that.

1:28:17 I cannot with it. No. If they are linked to this in some way, if they are truly innocent, that will be proven. Yeah. Bring out who's been linked to this. Yeah. Let them come. Let them speak about where their their role in this is. I could not agree with you more. It's it makes me so angry. Yeah, it's bullshit for those families who know that their their kids were tortured and just disposed of by these evil pieces of shit. A complete and utter network of them working together to just, well, think that they had the Oh my God.

1:29:01 It just fucking shits me how much that these people think that they are better than everyone else. That they have the power. Why? Because they've got status or money or what? What gives you the right to treat people like that? No. It's disgusting. It's, it's, it's horrible. It's horrendous. I, it's really awful how I don't know how other people in it, like, I mean, with it being in Adelaide, I don't feel like we get the story here. And I, I, I do know that social media, etcetera, it's heavily spoken about, but if it's not in mainstream media sources, why aren't the people of Adelaide jumping up and down like maybe they are and we're just not hearing it?

1:29:43 I don't know. But it's clearly not getting through. Well, look at Debbie. She's jumping up and down and what's happening? Then she she's loud. She's got a voice. She's got a loud yeah, yeah, she does. As well, she's got contact, she's got lawyers who are helping her and she's still still, I mean, as you said, she's made absolute strides that would not have been made without her, but she's still not all the way there yet, no. No, I mean. So I just wonder what what would anyone else do? I know. How do you make How do you make that noise?

1:30:15 Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, yeah, she's incredible. Check out her book and her podcast. Yeah, definitely worth a listen. She's. The other good book to read, and I can't think of the name of the author now, Youngblood. It was a that was that's a heavy read. That's. I haven't read that. So did you read it? I audio booked. OK, that's Bob O'Brien. Bob O'Brien, thank you. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. That's it's a tough read. OK. Yeah. I didn't go down that one only because of time. Like I just didn't have time.

1:30:48 There's so much this. Was the thing with this case, we gave ourselves slightly more time to investigate this one because? Then there's a couple of extra days. Only a few extra days. And in the midst of that was Easter. Like, yeah, it's it was a lot to try. And I know, I hope that we've done it justice in that sense. I know we haven't touched on everything. We absolutely got like there is no way even in A2 parter we could touch on everything. But no, go and have a look at those resources we've mentioned because, you know, if you want deep dives, that's where to go together.

1:31:17 For sure. I'm so curious to know what everyone thinks. Do you have theories? Are there things that we missed that you've heard about, that we don't know about or that we've not touched on in this episode? Yeah, please let us know. Yeah, really keen to hear. There's so many links to other crimes as well that we haven't even touched on with the family. But anyway. I think 'cause it's. Just too hard It's. Spider webs out everywhere. Yeah, we could keep going forever. If we don't, we have to narrow it into yeah, this major part of it, but there we are.

1:31:44 We please know we do understand there's more to it. Yeah, cuz yeah, there's just so much to it. So much that was really heavy. I struggled researching that. I know this will be a heavy listen for our listeners as well. It's a big one. So please take care of yourselves. Go and listen to some happy music now. Yeah, yeah. Been watching to try and break this up. I've been watching a good show. I was saying to you called Jury Duty. Yeah, it's hilarious. Get onto it. It's on prime. Yeah, yeah, very, yes, very good.

1:32:15 Combination of like Truman Show and The Office. Yeah, yeah. That's a good way of putting it. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely worth it. Very large. Yeah. Love it. All right, well, I hope everyone has a wonderful, wonderful week. I was about to say who we're doing next week and I've completely lost where I've written. It Reynard Singer. How do you say Sonaga? Sonaga. Sorry. Yeah, Yes, that's who we're doing. Yeah. All right, So stay tuned for us next week for another episode. Keep the case suggestions coming.

1:32:44 Keep your lovely comments coming. Come and join us at Patreon. Please do because we might be having a giveaway over there soon. Yeah, love it. All right, stay curious, crime besties. Bye.