Episode 86 - Reynhard Sinaga: The Serial Rapist

0:15 Welcome to Crime Besties. We're here for another episode this week. Thank you for joining us. We are recording our second. Well, really technically our third episode for the week. Yeah. And I don't know. I'm just not in it.

0:30 I'm really sorry. I know I'm really sorry in advance. So it's all good. Seriously doing this, doing this on the school holidays as well. I'm like it's. Out of routine. It's out of routine. We're doing it at different times of the day. It's just, you know, we're throwing. We're throwing doesn't clearly doesn't take much to throw us. But here we are. We just. Don't have enough wine in this, That's that's what in the. Morning. Now, you're absolutely right. That's 100% what it is. Oh gosh, I think I'm right because you got me a coffee so I'm good now.

0:57 Yeah, good. Now. Well, I feel like I am literally just full of caffeine and dry shampoo today, so sorry, what? Well, I was gonna have a wash. I had a shower this morning. I was gonna wash my hair and then I was like, I reckon I can. Get more to another. Day so I've literally emptied. I have to go today and buy more dry shampoo because I don't have any left and I'm just like, my hair is oh, I've found such a good one. I cannot find a good one. OK, this will be great for you too, because you've got dark hair, so it's slightly tinted brown.

1:30 Yeah. So that it never looks white. Yes, in your hair. It's an Australian brand, so I love that. I love to buy Australian where I can. Yes, O&M. 00. Dry. Dry queen shampoo. Yeah, Dry queen. I think brunette. OK, Dry Queen. It's so good. It's the best dry shampoo I've. I've never used a good one. Yeah, well, you know what? Same. Yeah, now that I've used this. OK, same. I. Can Oh and amazing. I just use their shampoo. I just it's so expensive. It's very that I'm like, I've just had to go down a notch from it.

2:02 Yeah, I change up my shampoo regularly. Like not regularly. I stick to 1. I stick to 11 is my go. To I love. 11 I love 11 because it's price marked. It's OK in terms of that, but it's like it is a good shampoo, although I have to use a ton. I have to admit I don't use their conditioner. I use their like. Treatment yeah the seven day miracle mask and yeah I love that of conditioner because my head is a. Hell of a lot of it. And it soaks up all their conditioner I like real quick. But O&M is my go to of like when I'm, I'm going like I need a change just to give my hair a shock and get some good shit in there.

2:35 And yeah, so, Oh no, I can believe that that that would be really good. I will give that a go. Do it, try it, but won't. You won't regret. It my texture of my hair sometimes whatever doesn't like go well with dry shampoo. Well, that that's the thing. Because I'm the same. I mean, we've got very different hair, but I still feel like it would work for you. Yeah. So my hair's really thin and fine, but that would often mean that when I use dry shampoo it makes it look really dank. And gross. Yeah, but this, I feel like I can use it a few days in a row.

3:02 Really. Yeah. Yeah. And you know me, I used to wash my hair every single day. Yeah, I don't anymore now that I've found this dry. Shampoo. Well, that's amazing. Yeah, that says a lot. Yes well I mean cuz I can't put a brush to my hair though in between no so. But that's fine. I don't, I don't either. I just like give it a bit of a Jewish. I mean today it's, you know, it's very, very dry shampoo like I probably haven't washed my hair in for to be going on four day. This would be my 4th day, which is massive for me.

3:27 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. One of my girlfriends, Michelle, has the thickest hair of anyone I know. I know you've got really thick and a lot of hair, but yeah, but my God, Michelle, her ponytail is like thick to mine. I. Used to not get to get hair. Ties. Yes. To go like I'd only get them around twice, I couldn't get them that third one round. Michelle is exactly just. Trying to find good hair ties that would work with my hair. Yeah, she is exactly the same, but she can go for like over a week without washing her hair.

3:53 Because it's so. Thick and there's so and it takes her forever. You know, for me, it's not that big of a deal because my hair is short, thin, fine. I can wash, shouldn't be. And blow dry it within half an hour. Yeah, right. Where she's like, this is a process because then she blow dries it and straightens it and oh, God, Like, her hair always looks gorgeous. But I'm like, it's an effort for her. But I've never really, I've never had to worry about. Oh. God, my head like never dries either. Yeah.

4:17 Yeah, yeah. Oh gosh. Amazing. I'm gonna try. Give it a go, Give it a go. Sponsors. Yes, please. Oh my God. Imagine if O&M spot. Oh my God, that would be amazing. I've got a list of them. The salon I go to now uses O&M, so that's how I found out about it. But yeah, this is. It's so good. Yeah, love it. Oh, so good. How's your. It's been a short week, a short turn around. We recorded our last episode on a Monday and today's Friday, so we haven't had a lot of time to, you know, turn this around. But how's your short week been?

4:47 Yeah, it's been good. I haven't been doing, I've been doing stuff like around the house stuff. Like I said to you, I spent like all day Wednesday in the garden and it was the perfect day for it because the weather here in Melbourne has turned to shit last couple of days. But Wednesday was the most spectacular day. Outside beautiful. I mean, you know, trackies in a T-shirt was all was required, you know, kind of thing. It wasn't like it was stinking hot or anything. But no, it was cool enough to be doing hot sweaty work kind of thing and not feeling hot and sweaty.

5:14 Yeah, yeah. But my God, my body after that, Jesus Christ, bending over, pulling out weeds and shit. And yeah, so my legs were killing me. Yeah, yeah. It just, it goes to show you don't do that movement. Very often. Exactly, Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's different stuff to what I normally do, that is for sure. Yeah. And oh, the other ones like, 'cause I was using like the Clippers and things doing like, you know, you know, chopping back some of the plants and things, my forearms and holding like the whipper sniper and stuff.

5:40 I'm like, Jesus, my forearms were so sore. Do you wanna know what I've got? A really amazing hidden talent. Oh God, I I don't know if I've mentioned this on the pod before actually, so sorry if I have. I am really good at hedging a Bush.

6:06 For real, For real I am. You need your Bush hedged. I'll come and I think. I'll be right, thanks.

6:22 Jesus, why does your mind always go to the gutter? I'm talking about the bushes in your garden, dude. So we've got we've got like a box hedge out the front and then we've got another hedge on the on our side of our driveway. Fuck, I am. So I don't even need a string line. I've just got the eye for it. I've got now. Actually, my dad gave me his old an old hedger if he's like an electric battery operated. One like yeah. It's changed my life because I used to do it with the manual cutters, but I'm still really good at that too.

6:51 It's just a talent I have. Oh. Well done, well done. No, I do. I mean, I've got a long driveway and I like to just go down and just trim everything back. And yeah, and I've got electric ones that I use on, on some of that. Not that it's, it's not hedging though, like it's not hedges that you want like shaped. Lovely. Whatever you want.

7:14 As long as you don't make it the full Brazilian, it's fine. Yeah, exactly. Oh God, I am so not a gardener. Would happen very. Yeah, yeah, knowing you. I know because I I can't grow anything, you know, like, although I have to say that my indoor plant recently that I yeah, recently I messaged both you and. Other friend about start of this. Year How long will. It was January and I was like, I think I gave you four months, so we're coming up for it. It is healthy. It's wow. It's doing well. No, I'm gonna make it 6 months I reckon.

7:43 Holy moly, that's a record for Call for me, Yeah. Yeah, but yeah. But I do have one thing in my garden that somehow I have managed to grow stupidly and in abundance of roses. Yeah, my rose standard rose out the front it like grows to the over my roof line like I have to chop that thing back so regularly. Well. That's probably why it's so healthy. Well, there's the thing. I'm like, it's like, stop growing. And I chop it and then more, I chop it, of course, grows. Yeah. And it's like, Oh my God, stop growing.

8:11 And you're obviously, you're obviously chopping it at the right time too, because they can be a bit fickle. Well, that's what I thought and I thought if anything I'm gonna kill it. And I've done the complete opposite and I need it to stop. Probably 1 of the only Rose owners who says that. Oh. My God, it's ridiculous. This thing gets so tall and because it's got these massive thorns on it too that are that are chop and I'm like I have to chop and run because like it falls and I don't want to land on me.

8:40 Do you wear gloves? Yeah, yeah. OK. But like, it still goes through the yeah. I need to get better gloves. You need leather gloves? Yeah, those leathery tough gloves. Yeah, yeah, Oh yeah. It's a whole thing. I'm not great in the garden. I'm like, I'm just freaking get this done and yeah, chop everything and make it die and then I'll do it. I'm really good at growing his weeds so. Yeah. Oh, good on ya. Yeah, that's something, yeah. Are you gonna tell the people what you did last night? Yeah, I guess we could tell.

9:07 Dragged Emma to go and hold my hand because I went and got a tattoo. Yeah, because you were talking about this on the podcast. I don't know. Many, many, many months ago. Oh, really? Yeah. You were like, oh, maybe one day I would get a tattoo. I don't know. Maybe I'd get this. Maybe I'd get that. Yeah. And it happened last night. Yeah, yeah, I went and got the one that I've been, like thinking about for a long time. So I wanted to get something to like represent my kids so well, represent. And then slash, I had a whole plan of just a representational tattoo of my kids and I showed it to both of my kids.

9:40 My older one just doesn't care about stuff like that, whereas my younger 1 is very into particular things. And he was like, no. What was it? It was their birthdays and it had like, so ever since my kids were really little, I used to say to them like, I love you to the moon and back. And we all have, we have this whole thing of like, it got to this point where again, my nerdy oldest son where we take talk about, you know, to the moon and back, like, you know, 1,000,000 * 1000, you know, 100 million times like, and it got to a point where you're talking about, you know, really big, huge mathematical numbers like Googleplex.

10:11 But then it got to like Graham numbers, right? Like that he learnt about as so it's grown over time. And so it was this whole little thing of like, back to the moon and back, right? So I was going to put that as a little thing on it as well of like, their birthdays and to the moon and back. And yeah, so but Brody was like, I get what you're doing, but no, yeah, no, he goes, I want my name. Literal. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I'm like, I wasn't really going to do names, but we've ended up with names. Yeah, yeah.

10:40 Love it. I love the script of it, it's really nice. Yeah, I can show it in the camera for anyone's like, oh, I don't know if I can actually. Not really. Nice. It's it's still got, no, you can't really see it, but it's still got the like second skin stuff. On it, Yeah, yeah. Because it's so fresh, so, so fresh. Love it. Yes, all good. Thanks for coming. Oh, that's all right. It was. I mean, I've had my eyebrows tattooed, but obviously I couldn't see that, No. So I've never actually watched anyone get a tattoo before so it was good.

11:08 New experience. Yeah. Emma's nose was right in there. Oh. Yeah, I was like, I need to see this. They're. Blood Brindle, yeah.

11:17 She was lovely, the girl who did it, She's awesome, very good. Highly recommend the Fine Lines tattoo again. If they want to sponsor us, yeah.

11:25 Very good, very very good. We I took the boys to the cold stream pump track yesterday yes for you know, just to get them out of the house and it was so cool like if anyones in or around the area in the Yarra Valley in in Victoria. It was actually such a lovely morning out. The weather turned to shit at about 1:00, but that was fine. We we were home just in time. Yeah yeah, it was really great fun. There's heaps of like good bakeries and stuff out there and it. Turns lovely awesome right on brewery as.

11:57 Well, but, well, Ollie, Ollie was like, can we go to the brewery for lunch? But we had the dog. So I'm like, oh, just outside there you can, but the weather was turning. Yeah. So yes, we ended up just bakery ING it. He's had a really good strawberry farm too. We can go strawberry picking. But it's not. There anymore is. It it's there, but they don't open to the public to strawberry pick there anymore. There's one not far up the road, but true. Yeah, yeah. That one was really, I remember going there with like, yeah, he's really little.

12:24 Yeah, I remember being in the parking lot and like Brody ate like his first strawberry. Like Mason had down half the Punnett already. And Brody, I think ate his first one. He was really little. And like, I remember him just being covered in strawberry, like his entire face. It was so. Cute yeah, I love it. I love a fresh strawberry Oh yeah Yum Yum Yum Yum so good very good kings very good fun Yep. I do have a shout out for today and this, this person deserves a massive, massive shout out because not only is she a Patreon supporter, who?

12:54 Yes, I'm. You know exactly what I'm talking about. Yeah, not only is she a Patreon supporter who comments on so many of our things, she shares our things. She likes our Instagram posts. She also has in the past bought us coffees and this week bought us more coffees, significantly more coffees. And so a massive, massive shout out to our Patreon superstar, Emma James. Like we cannot, we appreciate all of our Patreons, everyone who supports us in any way, sharing, commenting and all of that. But I feel like, you know, Emma does really go above and beyond and I her feedback's always so positive and lovely.

13:31 She's so kind and very, very generous. So thank you, Emma. Thank you so much. I loved hearing like she wrote the message sort of saying like, because the episode we replayed an episode, then we were like, she's well, I better do that again then. Yeah, we shouted around that episode that we replayed. Oh my God, it's so lovely of you. So, so lovely. No, you don't need to do that, but it is very much so appreciated. Oh. Gosh. So good. Yeah, we have so many great listeners. So many great listeners. We, our support, our base, our supporter base is just, it's growing and it's so lovely, overwhelmingly positive and and nice.

14:04 So thank you everyone. Yeah. Oh, I was gonna say like, come over and join us over on Patreon. We're gonna record another episode for there soon I think. So we're gonna, you'll have another one new over there very shortly. Yeah. But we're sort of building that now I think too, which is really great in the community there. So we're come and join us and check it out and we may have a little competition or something soon over in our Patreon or. Maybe some merch. We absolutely will. So once our merch is available, we are going to have a bit of a giveaway to our Patreon.

14:33 So if you're a member over there, you'll just go automatically into the draw to win some some of our merch. So awesome join up if that's something that you might want to go into the draw for. Amazing how much is due to arrive any day. Now, well, I think it's actually we're getting the first dump of it today. Yeah, yeah. And then the second, keep an eye out on the door. If you hear the doorbell, that's actually what it'll be. I got the notification today. And then the second lot of stuff is coming next Tuesday.

15:02 I think so. At the minute we see it and go yes. It'll be available. Like keep an eye out on our socials. Yeah, we're recording at the minute, a little bit in advance for sure. So keep an eye on the socials because that's where you're going to find out about it. Hopefully when you're hearing this episode, it's been dropped. Oh my God, that would be so exciting. That's so cool. Yes. Let's hope it's all good. Jesus. OK, I think. I think it will be, I think. I'm pretty confident in the quality of the items.

15:26 It's whether or not like the placements and everything has worked and that sort of thing. But that's easily tweakable. Exactly. That's, I think that anything that we're going to we need to do with it will be tweakable and we'll be able to get it out. Particularly quickly after yes, agreed, I'm very. Confident in I'm confident En's ability at the moment because doing amazing. Work. Oh my God. I don't know. I don't know if you should, but let's wait and see for it to come before you give any, you know, outlandish statements like that, OK?

15:50 I love it. All right. My mum's already like I needed zip up hoodie like and I want so she's like my mum. Said My mum's like, I'm gonna wear the piece of shit hoodie to school pick up. I'm like, no, you're not. With everyone else at the moment. Yeah, I know. Well, actually, that's true. She won't be the only one like Mum. At least we're the like. I don't know. Yeah. Something a bit more. Like the stay curious one?

16:16 Everyone wants the piece of shit. Yep. I mean fair. Yeah. Yeah. We love that. We love. That we do. That's what we're here for. We love it for you guys. Yep. Yeah. All right, let's get into today's episode we've been waffling on for far too long. Before we get really, really into it, into it, let's just do a little warning, I think too, Yeah, because today we're going to talk about extreme sexual violence, drugging, psychological trauma, like. So I think we just need to warn people. And violence against young people, so people under the age of 18 in certain circumstances as well.

16:45 That's true. So I think we just need to warn everyone and just say like, you know, take care of yourself. And if this isn't the episode for you, then you know that's cool. Come back, please. Move along. But yeah, all good. But let's just be, yeah? I think that's a really fair warning. I mean, all of our episodes deal with pieces of shit, but this one's, look, I think we'll get into this as we talk about it, but I think because of the nature of what it is, it's it's almost more jarring because it's not something we hear about or know about very often.

17:13 No, which we need to, I think. That's why we need to speak about it. That's right. That's why we. Chose this case because it's not I don't know about you so we're we're discussing the the case against Reynard Sanaga so he perpetrated untold well we will be talking about spoken has been the. The largest in the world. Amount of rapes that one person has committed. Yeah, that, yeah. God, it's just absolutely horrific. But when somebody actually won, somebody suggested this case to us, and that's why it made it onto our list.

17:47 Yeah. And when we were looking into sort of when we were planning out our episodes, we sort of looked into it. Now, I very, very vaguely had an idea of this case. Yeah. Not in any detail whatsoever. And I didn't know the resolution to it. Yes. And a lot of that is 'cause there was a lot of suppression around the time that it actually happened. Yeah. And stuff sort of very much trickled out in the media over the the subsequent years. But I think it's a really, really important story to tell. I really do too.

18:18 I. More the more I got into this, like in researching it I felt like this has got to be spoken about. Yeah, agreed. Yeah. All right, let's get into it for today then. So Reynard Sanaga was born on the 19th of February in 1983 in Jambi, Indonesia, which was a part of Sumatra when he was young. His family then moved to a town sort of not very far outside of Jakarta, like a little city outside of Jakarta. And that's basically where he grew up. He grew up in a gated community in D pockets called just South of Jakarta.

18:55 And he grew up in a very wealthy family. Yeah. So his father, whose name where have I got us, is Saban Sanaga. He was a or is a businessman. He is. I don't think he's the owner, but he's very, very high up in a palm oil like factory processing kind of. Yeah. He seems to either be. A massive investor or it was kind of, I couldn't kind of get exactly. It's really just in some places. Like he said that he's a banker, but he's not actually a banker. So yeah, I see why you think he might be an investor.

19:35 It's it's. Really, the information about him is not overly clear. Yeah. Around what? Where the monies come from. That's other than palm oil, yeah. Which is. Dodgy. Disgusting. In and of itself, yeah. So that that's what sort of. So the plantation I think originally was in North Sumatra, which is why they lived there. Yeah. And then I think the core business dealings were in Jakarta, which is why they moved now a very conservative. Family very conservative. Catholic family, they his mum Normawati and his dad.

20:11 They had four children, so Reynard is the oldest. There were then two boys and a girl and so he's got two brothers and a sister. And as you said, they lived in a in a conservative Catholic. Upbringing. In a largely Muslim country, yes. So they. Would have been in the minority in terms of their religion, their religious connotations, but they absolutely had community there. So Raynard, or Ray, as he was known to a lot of people, yeah. Was what we would probably call a perpetual student. Yeah. Yeah.

20:47 Fair statement. Yeah. So he completed a bachelor's degree in architecture in 2006 at the University of Indonesia. It was, which was their most prestigious university. Yeah. Apparently he was quite academic. He did very well at school. Really intelligent, Very intelligent man. Yeah, then he decided. He actually did a very, very, very brief stint in the US after that. I think he was there for less than three months. He was doing some postgraduate degree, didn't like the lifestyle, didn't like the people, and decided to move back to Indonesia.

21:21 Interesting. When he moved back, he didn't stay in Indonesia for very long, and he decided that maybe the culture of the UK might be more suited to what he was kind of looking for. So he applied for and was admitted to a postgraduate degree in urban planning at the University of Manchester. So he actually moved to the UK in 2007 on a student visa? Yes, he was aged 24 at the time he started studying for this urban planning masters basically at that time. Hmm. He was completely financed by his family, so plenty of money there.

22:06 To do that he wasn't so he didn't work a job was he was OK so. There's some a bit of conjecture around this because he claims he has claimed they worked for both of the Manchester Football Club. So Manchester United and Manchester City, Manchester United have come out publicly and said we have nobody by the name, by that name, yeah, ever having worked for us. Manchester City have just not said anything. And then he apparently this is true. He did work for Next, you know, the clothing company next year, right.

22:36 He worked there in retail for a very short stint and he also sometimes worked at some of the bars around where he was living, right? But he never had a solid job. It wasn't something that he did for a very long time and he didn't. Need to because yeah, as we say, he was completely financed by his dad, so not only. Did he pay for his tuition? He paid for his housing, his food, his recreation Yeah. And so yeah, there was number real need for him to be working. So that gave him a lot of spare time and for I'm an incredibly.

23:10 Intelligent person who studied, you know, I mean, he also studied sociology, like human, human biology. He's on a PhD level in the planning. I believe it was in the. IT was in human. Geography. But he didn't, he didn't get that. He didn't detain that. So he failed. No, he failed it. Oh, that's interesting. Yeah. So, so basically, yeah, his thesis. So he basically went on and did in 2009, he did that urban planning, the masters in urban planning. He then went and did sociology, as you said, both of those were completed at the University of Manchester.

23:44 Mm hmm. So sociology, he started that in 2011. Then in 2012, he started this PhD in human geography at the University of Leeds. Yeah. Now Leeds is about an hours an hour away from Manchester. Manchester. Yeah. And so he would just commute. He didn't want to leave Manchester. He was very, very happy there and he liked the lifestyle that he was living there. And so he decided to commute for his PhD. Yeah. His thesis was caught was titled Sexuality and everyday transnationalism among South Asian gay men in Manchester.

24:23 It's very. Specific. Very. Specific. I mean, I know you need. To for a thesis, but I mean, yeah, he. Submitted the thesis in August of 2016 and the examiners failed him, but they offered him a chance to resubmit. They obviously like what? Element of it they failed I could. Not I could not find on what grounds it failed. I I looked because I was like, I'd love to know. Was it the insights he had? Was it that the research was incomplete? Was it I I don't actually know. Yeah. And then it all kind of came undone because he was in the process of correcting, and it was before his resubmission that all of this kind of came to play.

25:09 So he never actually attained his PhD that. Yeah, yeah. Oh, no, sorry. So I mean, I guess we should say like living in in Indonesia with that conservative family and community, obviously now Raynard did feel that he was gay. And so in that community, he did not feel comfortable. And I guess that's where he was seeking out places where he might be more accepted for being who he was. Obviously he had the relationship, I would say a good relationship, but he had a relationship with his family that he wanted to continue.

25:47 Yeah, for his own benefit in a lot of ways. I mean, financially, you wouldn't want to piss your dad off and say I'll cut you off when he's going to support you and doing all those great things like of living overseas and studying, etcetera, and not having to work full time to pay your own way. So, you know, kept that relationship with his parents and never told them his sexuality and spoke of all those sorts of things. But so he would 'cause he would fly home, living in Manchester, would fly home regularly to visit family and he would literally before he would leave to go home, he would cut his hair.

26:18 So to the point of how he needed to appear physically to sort of fit in at home, he wouldn't need to change that about himself. So he would sort of come to Manchester and be who he was, a gay man. He was openly gay in Manchester to his friends and everyone. He grew his hair sort of shoulder length and all these sorts of things that like, I mean, I don't think anything of in terms of going, oh, that must mean that you're gay like or anything like that, like God. But he felt that with going home, he needed he couldn't have that longer hair.

26:46 He couldn't behave. He had a certain way. He had a certain image to uphold. Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's very, very true. Yeah. I think at the time. So whilst homosexuality wasn't illegal in Indonesia at the time, there were certain provinces like Arche where it was. Yes. So there were certain places where if you were a gay man or a gay woman, you could not go there because you would receive. It was like brutal old school punishment, like 100 lashings or something like that, if you were seen to be partaking in homosexual behavior.

27:20 Yeah. And so that goes to show that even though it wasn't illegal in Indonesia, it wasn't accepted and it wasn't something that was out and sort of overtly visual in the, in, you know, in society. While saying that, I think at the time in Bali, you know, which is a place that a lot of Australians go to have a good time and have a lovely holiday, it was more accepted in, in places like that. But certainly on the mainland around in and around Jakarta, it wasn't something you wouldn't see two men or two women holding hands going down the street or anything like that.

27:55 And I dare say. Like his dad in the position that he was in with, you know, this kind of money and all those sorts of community that he was involved in specifically, it became really, that's just not what you do in that community. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I in general, I feel really sad for someone in that position of like, not feeling being able to be accepted in their own family for who they were. I can empathize with that. But then I think. He's probably done the right thing to a certain point by moving away and finding a community that he fit into.

28:27 So in moving to Manchester, which is, you know, it's probably the, you know, the second biggest sort of city outside of London and Birmingham maybe. But but it's a vibrant urban cultural place. It's very hip. There's you've got the university there. So it attracts a lot of young people, real student, sort of. Town sort of in that sense, there's a lot of I mean the area where he lived, it was, you know, there was the nightlife there was it was busy and acted with like the gay. Village, so lots of gay clubs and yeah, a lot of people attracted that that type of person around.

29:04 Yeah. You know, it was near Chinatown and there's, as you said, bars and restaurants and really vibrant nightlife and fun. Lots and lots of fun. People would go there on nights out, have a great time and and everything would be all good. So Sanaga was actually in Manchester on a student visa, which he attained in 2007. And I guess to be on a student visa, you have to be studying. So he's gone on and studied for the next 10 years in Manchester. Yeah, yeah. So he physically was probably, well, it's, it was described in one of the articles I was reading that he was a bit of a wolf in sheep's clothing.

29:43 So he was 5 foot 7 or not even, not even 5 foot 7, like a few a little bit shorter than 5 foot seven. He had a soft voice, a really kind of a smiley person, a meek and inoffensive persona. Yeah, someone. Described him really, funnily enough, as completely harmless, yeah. Which I find really. A really interesting wording to use of someone that caused so much harm. Yeah, his. Persona of. What he presented to everyone was quite. It's unusual, it's so. Interesting, though, because throughout all of this and in doing this research, there's people who have that perception of him, right?

30:21 So these were people who were probably more on the periphery, yeah. In terms of. Acquaintances he had, or people he knew from university, that kind of thing. Then you've got his inner circle of friends who they actually described. Him as a narcissist, yeah. And also just constantly. Talk about himself, always talking about. Himself and even the way he talked about certain sexual conquests and that kind of thing. Yeah, he was explicit in his telling over, and this is in text messages, this is provable things, yes.

30:50 He wasn't the smartest of people when it came to leaving a trail and certainly socially, absolutely not. No, he would. He, there was one particular text message he wrote. He had like a WhatsApp group of his friends and he would put messages in there. And what they, they all spoke about was that. Well, you can see the messages. They've been sort of shown a little bit now. Yeah. But a lot of them were around about these conquests that he felt really proud of himself for being able to turn a straight man.

31:16 That was kind of his real bow and his, you know, Well, I think that's what he. Got off on, wasn't it? Well. I've got an opinion on that, but yeah, I'll come to that when we get there. But yeah, no, he said. We write things in these messages about you know, like like I should have seen the guy last night that I had sex with and he was straight so suck shit to his girlfriend and things like that, like that. The language he would use was quite overt and everything and yeah, really shoving in peoples faces what he was up to sexually behind closed doors, which the group were kind of like there was straight and gay people in this group.

31:51 It wasn't like that. What, all of one sexual orientation necessarily. I don't think so. You know, everyone was. I think even that group chat was kind of going mate, we don't really need to hear of this. So yeah. OK. Like, yeah, like. OK. You do you, yeah, sort of thing, yeah. So. Yeah, He would come across one particular way to sort of everyone else generally. Yeah, you know, And then there was the inner circle, like where you let I think a little bit of a wall down. But I think that's where you kind of get this idea of him, like where their case as persona of like what he would do for mum and Dad, persona of like at the university and keeping his visa and being a student.

32:23 And then there was the persona of what around he's like so-called close friends. And then there was another personality as well, again, where he would, you know, it's like kind of like that little teetering off to like, you know, to the real crux of who he was in, you know, in the the bottoms of his soul. Yeah. And that was that was absolutely horrific. So let's let's start at the end, shall we? Yeah. Let's start. OK. Yeah. So. On the 2nd of June in 2017. Do you want to start there? Yep, Yep. This was a Friday.

32:57 Night and a man who we only know by the name of Peter, that's not his real name. A lot of the names and even some of the stories have been suppressed in this and that was I can completely understand why a lot of these victims are, some of them were underage, so absolutely have to be suppressed for. That. The a lot of the other ones would only come forward if their names were not going to be published at all. So the judge was more than happy to suppress those people's names. And ever since all of this has come to the fore and, you know, the conclusion of it has kind of come about really only one person has come forward to say this is who I actually AM and this is what happened to me.

33:48 We have heard other anonymized stories, but there's only one person who's really put his name to yeah, his story and how how it all came out it. I mean, I think that's. Where that's where I sort of go. Like this got to be spoken about. Not because like people have to put their names to these things. I don't know, I don't mean that, but the fact is like it's so more taboo to talk about men being sexually abused and I don't think we should shut it behind closed doors and give men the opportunity to speak about these things without feeling like they're, you know, the shame of it.

34:23 I mean, look, I. Think women experience shame in sexual abuse and sexual assault as well. But for a man to be sexually victimized by another man is something that we don't hear about a lot. And it is. It is certainly in the minority in terms of aggravated sexual assaults. It's not as common for a straight man to be assaulted by a gay man. It's just not. Yeah. So. Wow. All right, So 2nd of June in 2017. Peter had been out at Club Factory, yes, which was one of the there. There were kind of two main clubs.

35:07 There was Factory and 5th, yeah, and people would go between the two. There were the two kind of hotspots for the university students. So Peter was young and he'd been out on a night with his friends and his girlfriend and they'd had a really, really great time. And by the end of the night he'd kind of lost his friends. They'd, I don't know if they'd gone home. I don't know what had really happened. It was a little bit, yeah, a bit. Confusing there, but yeah, just could not, couldn't find contact them, Wasn't, yeah, couldn't find them anywhere.

35:35 Sometimes that happens. Yeah, You know, at the end of the night, someone's gone, you know, whatever. Yeah. So he walks out of the club at about 2:00 in the morning, and he's kind of a little bit disoriented. He's drunk. He's had a big night. Yeah. And this unassuming small man comes up to him and says, are you OK? Can I help you? You can come back to my. I live 2 minutes down the road. Well, he said it first. Well, they. Spoke for quite some time like you know, it got, he actually like they got into a conversation about you know what he was studying and at uni and all these sorts of things.

36:08 I was actually, like, real genuine, like, banter conversation happening between them for quite a while before. Yeah. But then he said, well, hey, you know what? I live around just up the road here while you wait for your friends. It's because it was really cold outside. It was freezing cold, Yeah. Come inside to my. Place while you wait for your friends to rock up. Because I think they'd got a bit. He was trying to contact them and wasn't hearing back from them. And he's like, they'll get back to you.

36:32 Like, you know, just come inside and be warm. Be warm. You know, come and have a drink and yeah, yeah. Or you wait for them. I'm just right here, like, because he did just leave right there. Yeah. Very conveniently, Yeah. So it was it. It didn't. I'm really intrigued by his ability to manipulate people in those moments, but I think there's. That I also think, and I saw this in an analysis piece by I think it was the Guardian, and they basically said that it's physically because he was not intimidating at all.

37:04 Yeah. And these were strapping. Like I know Peter physically was much larger than him, yes. I don't think you'd. Have that same sense of, yeah, you know, you'd think, oh, well, if anything happened, I'd just, you know, yeah, it'd be fine. Female. Like you would never do it. I just would never, like, never do that, no. But I cannot. Just like then I have to try and put my like, you know, imagine yourself a man, Yeah. And kind of go, OK, like, yeah, would you do that? And I yeah, well, obviously. Obviously a lot of them do.

37:31 Yeah, a lot of people did this because his MO was proven. He he did this so many times. So anyway, what's happened is Peter has gone back to his apart this lovely man's apartment. Yeah, and he's had a drink and the next thing he knows is it's 5:00 in the morning. Well. Before that even he remembers too that he was given a couple of shots, had a couple of shots and he was like unlike the I think he said he went to the toilet, Yep and came back and with another shot was left on the table and so and Sanaga it was like 2 shots was one a clear one and one more brown coloured one which didn't think anything too much of at the time.

38:09 He thought one was Sam. Booker and one was vodka. Yeah, he just sort. Of really thought just different alcohols. Yeah, picked up I think the browner coloured, coloured 1. And he drank that. Yep. And he said within seconds of drinking it, he felt really not right and started stumbling and like and Senaga was like, oh mate, you're OK, you're OK, just take a rest, take a rest, you know. And he does remember stumbling into the bathroom and has memories of that. Yep. But then nothing from there. Nothing.

38:40 So the next, I guess conscious memory that he's got is he's waking up at 5:00 in the morning and his pants and his underwear are down. So he's face down on a mattress on the floor. His pants and his underwear are around his ankles. And he turns around to see Sanaga on top of him with his pants with his undies down around his ankles. And so Peter's first reaction is to like, basically physically push him off and go, what the fuck are you doing? Yes, in that Sanaga basically goes you're an intruder, you've come into my house and I don't know who you are trying to establish some kind of like that a crimes being committed here.

39:23 That's not the sexual assault of Peter. And so Peter in his state basically bashes the living shit out. Yeah, he does. He. He punches him. He, you know, thrashes around and everything. Senagar also does, though, he runs as as Peter is about to sort of get through to the door. Yeah, Senagar does run after him and head butts him and also. Bites him on the shoulder. Yeah. Like, so deep. Like there's actual, like, flesh marks, yeah. So in this, you know, again, Peter thrashes back, punches him more and gets out through the fire escape and down onto the street.

39:56 So he is completely disorientated, Like, he's still druggy. Like, kind of. Yeah. What the hell is going on? I mean God, I can only imagine how scary that. Oh, it would be so terrifying. So it's early hours. In the morning here, we're talking 5:00 AM. It's not even light. No, he's like, what? Where the hell do you go and get help? He did find some people too, and he was asking for their phone. These people were like, Oh my God, what? The whole like, 'cause he's bloody, he's colouring blood. Yeah, like what the hell You would.

40:22 I mean, as both ends of that, you wouldn't know what to do. But the people eventually do hand over their phone 'cause he is shouting at these people. You know, I've just been raped. I think I've just been raped. Like, you know. So he's got the phone, he's called the police. Well, no, he called. His mum 1st and she didn't answer. She called. He called his mum because he's like, my mum would know what to do. Oh God, when you just. Call the police, I thought. But I mean, she didn't answer 'cause it was.

40:45 5:00 in the morning, she probably had a phone on silent like all our mums overnight or in the other room or something. But then, yeah, he dialed 999. Yeah, absolutely. And you can hear the phone call and it is harrowing because he's so confused. He's like, I think I was raped. I'm not sure. I don't really know what happens. And he's like, I don't even know if I have I killed the guy. Like, I don't know what's going on. I'm this is this is like roughly where I am. And I don't know how I got there.

41:11 It's he's so confused. He's but he constantly says I think I was raped. I think I was raped. So the 999 operator says we'll get someone to you just are you safe to stay where you are? So he does. He stays where he is. A police of a couple of police officers attend. He's able to point them into the direction of where where he's come from. And so they go back up and they walk into Raynard's bedroom in their flat, in his flat. And Raynard is on the floor, bleeding clear head injury. He's not in a good way.

41:48 So ambulance come. He gets stretchered out and taken to Manchester Hospital. The police. Then arrest Peter. Yep, after seeing Raynard they're like this guy has beaten the shit out of this smaller meeker man. Clearly the victim is not the victim, it's the other way around. And they arrest Peter, which I can somewhat understand, but I mean, they're not listening. To not listening to him, it's. Which is so frustrating, the horrible. Thing is, so I think he ended up was he held for like 9 hours or something like that was yeah, but he was.

42:22 Consistent in his story, but insane? Yes, he was. Consistent. He was saying I've been raped, I've been raped. Yeah. It took them 48 hours to do a rape kit on him. Yeah, They didn't do it immediately. Yeah, I mean. The cops kind of when they so they I know I totally get it. Like they took Renard to hospital like immediately he had they got he stretched him out. I just kind of like I see the photos of him on the stretcher being taken out and I'm just like, what the fuck, Don't be so nice to me. Yeah, like, oh, drag him out.

42:52 But anyway, they because they just assume like this is the victim like in this scenario and he's been beaten the shit out of by some random person. So they take him off to hospital. The police sort of start going. They they start twigging to something being a little bit off and a bit not right when Sanaga consistently constantly keeps asking for his phones, not phone phones like and doesn't let it drop like he is so agitated around these phones and like having access to them. So I think. That's what happened at the 48 hour, Max.

43:26 Yeah, he was in an induced coma for that time, right. So under police guard too, because they thought, as you said, that he was a victim of this absolutely aggravated assault. Yes. And so while they had let Peter go on court, like on, you know, he was still under suspicion for this crime, but they needed to wait until Sanaga woke up to get his side of the story and to get his statement. Peter. But they. Still weren't taking his story for fact until they spoke to Sanaga. That's it. So it. Wasn't until Sanaga came to, which was at roughly 48 hours later, because I think he did have like a little bleed on the brain or something like that.

44:01 And so when he came to, as you said, he wants his phone. So the police like, Yep, we're gonna go and search your house anyway. We've got to get evidence of this crime because the apparently the bedroom was very bloodied and there was a lot of blood everywhere. There's photos. Of like the crime scene, I guess you call it, Yeah, which there's a lot of blood, yeah, so. The police are like, well, we obviously have to process that as a crime scene. Yeah. So in the processing of that, they found Sanaga's phones and they're like, yeah, yeah, sure, you can have them.

44:25 We just need to check them first because there's possibly stuff in here that we can enter into evidence thinking at the time that it would be in support of SANAGA. Yeah. He gave them like four false, what do you call it? Pins to try and get into his phone. And he at in the end, he was just like, tried to snatch his phone off the police officer who'd kind of taken it to the hospital to try and get him to unlock it so they could see what was in there. And so that obviously raised some suspicions with the police, Like, why?

44:53 Why is there an issue here? They've been able to somehow get into his phone. Like, I, I don't know, forensics, I don't know someone, someone's gotten into his phone somehow. Yeah. And what they have found on there on both of them is the most horrific and violent sexual perpetration against. Yeah, so. Many. Men and boys. I'm gonna say boys because some of these boys were 17. Yeah, there was. Hundreds of hours, literally, so I think there. Was there was 3.29 terabytes of data? This is up, you know, once they were able to get everything between mobile phones.

45:32 Laptops hard drive the cloud it. Was yeah, it was everywhere, everywhere once they got into. Everything they found like it was just ridiculous, which is like. I think in a TB of data you can get like maybe 300 hours of video. Well, something like I think I. Heard someone someone say there was 330 like DVD's worth of if that, like if people can think, yeah, instead like 330 DVD's worth of footage in that 3.2 terabytes. Wow. It's OK. So it's a lot. It's a lot. Of footage, a lot of footage, and there were still photos and stuff as well.

46:04 Like it wasn't just videos, there were. Definitely screenshots. There was photos like yeah, lots of lots and lots, lots of evidence. So. The police, like holy fuck, maybe Peter was telling us the truth. And so that that's when they went and got the rape kit done on Peter. I mean, two days later, it's not ideal, but they were able to do that and tipping at that point, so I couldn't. Actually, I don't remember reading this anyway, like at that point they wouldn't have done like even a blood test, say to go like, what had he been drugged with, you know, like, so they didn't even get that evidence.

46:31 I'm guessing after two days that would probably be out of his system as well. Oh, absolutely. GHP has a very short, really short. Lived, yeah. So, yeah, they missed all that opportunity. God, thank, I mean, in some ways, thank God they had the videos because oh, that was the. Nail in the coffin, because otherwise I feel like it would have been he said, he said. And a little bit, I mean, yes, the rape kit of Peter did prove that he had been raped. Yeah, but the, the actual, the actual video footage.

46:56 Of him being yes, right. Yes as well. And then obviously that opened up the door to all the many of the others boys. So the police are now investigating a serial rape case. Mm Hmm. And it is incumbent upon the investigators to watch all 3.29 terabytes of that horrific, horrific, brutal sexual violence. I feel for those police officers. I can't even imagine what they would have to go through to watch that. But I also understand that that had to be done in order to bring this person to justice. Now, the next part of what they needed to do was try and identify all of these people.

47:40 Now, how many people were in the videos? Because I know, yeah, 48 came forward to go to trial, but it was like 100 and 200. And six 200. And six. That's right, people. Were seen to be on these videos, however they're still to this day I'm talking to to today's date even during 2026. Yeah, but sorry, it was more. Than this, but there was there's still 50 I believe that have not been identified. I know there's. A story that one of the investigators talks about that she was working at like the Manchester Police station on this particular day and she'd been investigating this crime and a man.

48:27 So the police actually used the media to get this story out and say, look, have you seen this man? Have you had an experience with him? If you have, you need to contact your local police station and come forward. You know, you will be you'll be kept. You know, your information will be kept private. You'll be anonymous if you wish to be. Yeah. And this particular female police detective, she said she was standing in in the like, reception area of Manchester Police station, and this man walked in and she said as soon as I saw him, like I saw you in a video, I know why you're here.

49:03 Isn't that horrific? It's awful. And that's. That's exactly why he was there. He saw Sanaga's photo on the news and was like, I've seen this guy. I'm pretty sure I've been in his house because a lot of The thing is. So what we do know is that he was drugging these men with GHB. Now, GHB is colourless, odourless. It has a slightly a slightly salty taste, which is generally masked by alcohol or any other flavour drinks. So in water, you can kind of tell that it's a bit salty. Yeah, but he was drugging people with GHB.

49:41 Yeah. What GHB? So GHB is a very common date rape drug. It's also taken recreationally at obviously at lower doses. And so it is it, it incites euphoria in the person who's taken it if they take it at a sort of a party drug sort of dose. It also heightens sexual pleasure and sexual desire. Now, Sanaga was giving his victims so much of it that it actually had a an A It would black, they would completely black out. And then they don't remember anything that happened if it's given in the right dose.

50:20 Yeah. So. What he did to Peter is literally his MO. He would. He was skilled at this, which is awful. I hate using that word for it to like, compliment him. In some it's no compliment, yeah, compliment. No, he was incredibly skilled at going down from his apartment, which was literally right above all these nightclubs. He was very close by and he would go down and he would, he wasn't going down there to go to the nightclubs. He was going down there to find a victim. He would literally scout for someone who was either lost from their friends, had lost their phone, had lost their wallet, you know, needed to charge their phone, had lost their friends, you know, that sort of stuff was like literally his gold.

51:01 And he would then talk to these people. It convinced them to come to his apartment, whether to charge their phone up or wait for their friends or have a drink, have a. Drink offered them like you know have. A cup of. Tea sober up at my place. Yeah, all these. Sorts of things. And he would get there and then would give them alcohol or, you know, he had this like, full cocktail, like bar sort of table set up. Yeah, so I mean, when you see it like like it is, I can understand someone going, you know, he's just randomly pouring a drink.

51:27 You wouldn't even think that there's a how would he be able to drug you from. There's multiple choices of ones when you're. I'm going to say, oh, I'm going to take the vodka at the back there. You know, totally think too much of it. No. So yeah, he'd pour these drinks for them and they'd be laced with GHB. Yeah, to this point where, yeah. Then his victim would pass out and he would rape them, and 99% of the time these people would then wake up the following morning having absolutely no idea that they had been raped now.

51:57 This is he would often rape them more than once as well. So there's a lot of most of them were raped more than once. It was some of. Them were up to 14 hours that they were kept and he would redrug them over that time. Yeah, to continue then being able to rape them. Yeah. There was one particular guy I know who you're gonna talk about. He tweeted a photo of him with his arm around Sanaga the following day after his night out say, and he literally quote captioned it with let me just find the actual code here.

52:29 Oh my God, I was lucky this guy took me in. Oh my God. Because that's a lot of them had that that sense afterwards in that they look, fuck, I must have been way drunker than I thought because. And thank God I came across this guy who's let me crash here because yeah, how would I have gotten home in my state? Oh my God, Like what a. Lovely. What a lovely guy. Isn't he just saved? Me. Couch or whatever on the floral you know and I'm and I've woken up this next morning and he's like can you go have a cup of tea now like you know and got me on my merry way yeah meanwhile he that person has absolutely no idea this guy literally like posted up that tweeted tweeted that photo out and then this comes out on the news and he had to comprehend holy shit this guy who I have then the next morning said thank you to yeah publicly, even over Twitter yeah actually fucking raped him yeah which is just I can't even there were.

53:24 Also stories of men who woke up the next morning. There was a particular victim who had Crohn's disease, and the perpetration of the rape for him caused significant damage in the area, which was exacerbated by the fact that he had Crohn's. And he ended up going to the hospital, but he was so ashamed and he didn't really know what happened. And so he kind of got treated for the injury. And that was it until all of this kind of started coming out and he's like, oh, wait, no, this is actually like, really, this happened to more people.

54:06 And he was one of the people who formed part of the lawsuit that that came. So I just, I, you can't even imagine. So we're saying we're talking about 206 individuals, but we are talking about countless numbers of rapes. Like if you're saying some of them are raped, you know, 456 times over those hours. The other thing is that I'm. Saying is those 206 people within the period, time period of 2015 and 2017. Now we just spoke about the fact that he was at Manchester University there and living in that same area even from 2007.

54:41 Yeah. When did this actually start? We don't know, no. And then? There's also, like I've seen insinuations as well, like, did this start in Indonesia? Yeah, actually. That's right, potentially a start of this like there's coming out from other stories of people that have come together. I have seen as early as 2005 could be his first victim so advice so this. Was when he was at the University of Indonesia. But The thing is, we were talking about before how homosexuality is quite taboo still in Indonesia.

55:15 Rape of a man as well. You know, that you just, are you gonna get anyone to actually come forward and admit and admit to the fact that they were a victim? I think it's not really the UK. In Manchester for straight men, I mean this thing, 'cause we should say he didn't, he wasn't specifically just going for straight men, but he did sort of target a little bit more to straight men. Well, I think that targeted. Whoever he could get, actually, whoever he could get, but he. Was he certainly felt more accomplished if it was if they were a straight man, so he.

55:45 He looked at it like a bit of a sport to turn a heterosexual man. I mean, I don't know how raping a man would make him turn gay. It doesn't, No. So OK, you fucking idiot. But he was something that he was boastful about. Yeah. You know, I mean at the. End of that. Again, we should just say all of this. What he did in terms of these rapes is not about being gay or straight. It's about control. Control 1. 100% about control, Absolutely so. The fact that he was targeting in some way straight man, or, you know, that was there was more straight men potentially attacked than than than gay men.

56:20 For him, it was actually just about the fucking control of the situation. And entirely, yeah, I get, OK, we'll get into it. The videos that he took were absolutely horrendous. So what he would do is he would actually so these men would pass out and he would set up two cameras, which were his two phones, Yeah. So he would have one. Phone placed to the side that he would get like I guess the wide angle, you would call, you know, and get the full shot of everything. He's so cinematic. And then the other phone he would have as he held it so he would get more close-ups like a first person.

56:55 View of it well So what he would. Do is like he would. What he really wanted was the close up of the actual penetration. He would also film. This is so disgusting, so gross. So. Yeah, but he would then. Film his semen resting in the man's anus so he would get really close up for any of that sort of thing. What that what he actually filmed them for. The potential for the the use by the police that they found as great evidence was the fact that these men were so drugged that they would snore so very clearly unconscious participating in this and we're not consenting.

57:35 They were absolutely unconscious to the extent of being so asleep and having this done to them that they didn't wake up that he but well, he also filmed them vomiting and he would just leave them in that vomit and continue. He would not stop. He would also, he would get so into this that he would could cause bleeding and again, he would wipe away and continue. So in all of this, though, he there was one one video that the police found where he put on a condom. There was no regard in any of this for his own health and safety in that scenario or the victims.

58:15 I mean, there could have been an absolute horrific number of people affected here by HIV or other St. DS and things. That's just, I mean, I think that is awful. Those poor men. It is awful. Especially for the ones who don't know. So I did read somewhere that there was possible, I think it was chlamydia that was kind of detected in some of these victims, which is easily treated like it's just an antibiotic. So it wasn't anything catastrophic, but if you don't know, you've got it, you know, and then not only passing it on to someone.

58:55 Else that's that's what I'm saying just just I mean not their fault, not at all, no way not don't want a victim blank, but how did? How did he not contract something more sinister and more serious? That's just by absolute absolute. Luck in that sense. I mean, there was absolutely no regard for anyone in this. And I mean, God, no, he had no ability to do that in his psychopathic brain. No, but it just blows my mind. Yeah. The possibilities of all those sorts of things too, that could have come of this.

59:23 Yeah, absolutely horrific. I wonder what made. Him use the condom on that one victim. I know. I'd love to know what the motivation was behind that. Yeah. But did he know something? But I don't know how he would because these victims were not known to him ever. No, they were just random. So, yeah, that that was fascinating to me that there was one, only one instance in, you know, thousands of rapes really, if you're looking at how many times he perpetrated them across, across the six, 206 victims that we know of.

59:50 Yeah. All right. So obviously he gets arrested and there's, you know, very conclusive evidence against. Him. Have you seen the interview tapes with the police? I mean, I find his demeanour incredibly fascinating. He's he's. It's like he's so nonchalant. Well. And he cries like he's so at one stage he's, he's like, because what he claims, he says this is not true any of this and that all they're all lying. And that the videos, all those men agreed to participate in a game with him where they would pretend to be asleep, which is where it's important that you, we know there's videos of men snoring.

1:00:30 Mm hmm. That clearly these people were not pretending to be asleep. Like it's so the the way their bodies move in these videos, et cetera, they move well this the way he manoeuvres them, yes. And the way their bodies like positioned, they're dead weight. They are dead weight. They're not someone moving. Themselves, you can tell they are. So they are actually genuinely passed out unconscious. They're not pretending to be asleep. But that's what he claims is that they're all, it's a sexual game he likes to play.

1:00:57 And these men agreed to participate in it. But and they're like, and the police officers, he's like crying going, you know, like when they were pretending and the police officer says, you know, like, why are you crying? Like, what's why? Why are you so upset about that? And he's like, because you won't believe me.

1:01:15 Oh, it's just, it's actually sickening. Like he's so. Plays this make mild his voice is very quiet when he talks that creeped. Me out creeped me the fuck out because you're like, I know actually how violent you are and I know the horrific things that you've done. That really creeped me out. Gave me the absolute like yuck yuck yuck yuck yuck. So. He goes to trial now this absolute fuck wit piece of shit of a human being subjected his victim to not one but four different trials. He did not plead guilty despite the fact that there was irrefutable evidence against him and he made his victims go through the extra trauma so he's re traumatized them.

1:02:08 To go. Through the trials and they they believe. He did that purposefully. Oh yeah, absolutely. I have no. Doubt, no doubt in my mind took. Pleasure in it. Yep. Like they said, he sat in that court with like a smirk on his face the entire time. He wanted his victims to have to sit through watching those videos. He wanted to see those videos again, and he wanted others to see the videos he actually like. As you say it was irrefutable, the evidence, like I'm sure his lawyers said to him, you plead guilty, you will get you know, potentially A lesser one, but it's not going to be good.

1:02:45 Like you're just, you're done here mate because the evidence of the videos was so damning but he refused. To. Do that you know what I think is? Horrific as well. The fact that this went to four trials, which we'll get to in a second, meant that four different juries had to watch all three terabytes worth of videos. You know, that's what is it 12 people and a jury, that's 48 people who they will never, you would never get over seeing that. You would never, ever get over it. No, that's 48 more victims in my in my mind and.

1:03:18 That's lonely sack of shit actually will now get off of that bit of information. Yep, for the rest of his life. Yep, because he it's again another. Control. Yep, Yep, I. That that shits me. And like, there's no getting around that. As in, and he knows that like legally he's entitled to have that trial as no matter how much a prosecution would sit there and say, judge, look at him like, we can't do this. This is him getting, you know, winning. There's no legal way of getting out of that. He has to have a fair trial.

1:03:49 Yeah. Which is so. Unfair. It's so unfair. It's so unfair. Oh God. And this is like we. Talk about this a lot, but the, you know, the legal system isn't great for victims ever. It's really, and we, we've talked about it as well. We understand it needs to be a robust process because we don't want innocent people going to jail. But in situations like this, I don't know, there has to be a way that we can compel someone to plead guilty when there's, yeah, evidence like this, because there's gotta be a judge.

1:04:22 You can just sit there and go. You know what this is? We're not going to. Trial. Trial, Yeah. No, no you don't. You lose that, right? Yeah. Yep. When? This is. How like it's, it's that conclusive. It's like there's video evidence that we found in your possession. You're in the video, yes. You're performing. These acts, it's very clear. I just don't feel like that should be that No one should be subjected to that as a victim. Like never. Oh my God, The other thing in. Terms of evidence that we actually haven't spoken about yet is the trophies that he kept.

1:04:51 Oh, yeah. So he kept things like people's phones, watches, ID cards, licenses from their wallets. Yeah. He also would. So he'd look in their wallets while they were unconscious, figure out what their given name and surname was. He would then friend them on social media. He would download photos of them to keep as a trophy, screenshot, screen shot things. They're like profile and their friends and yeah, just, you know, absolutely horrific things. So again, that is more like there was a draw in his bedroom that was just full of other people's mobile phones and other trophies and ID cards and I'm like, what the actual foxy again?

1:05:30 Yeah, you know, that's massive. Yeah, yeah. It's. Absolutely. Just horrific. It's just horrible. It's another nail in the coffin, it really. Is like, I just, oh, God, I don't know, They're still sifting through all this information to this day. There's still, you know, items like those belt buckles, Like it came down to like little things like that as well that. I mean, how do you identify? Yeah. The only way you can identify that is someone going, oh, my God, yeah, I did wear that. Like, it's not like you're gonna look at that and go, oh, that's Joe blogs.

1:05:59 Like, we can go, go to his house. And because unfortunately, these police have had to approach people from identifying them in these videos and, and from IDs and things in drawers, they've had to go to these people and say to them, can you come down and have a chat with a counsellor first? Like they're not going to say it is the police coming knocking on the door. They, these men had to be called in, obviously to a counsellor to be have this news broken to them carefully and that they are a victim of this and this occurred to them.

1:06:30 They have no knowledge of which. I mean, I find this really like just, again, psychologically for that individual, would you rather go your entire life not knowing it ever happened to you or would you want to know and work through it? No. I know. So I mean, legally they've had to like of course, fine. These people and do this. And let them know. But there are men who have been suicidal over this, which is just horrendous that these men have been put through. I mean the. Untold amount of trauma that that would do to a person.

1:07:00 I can understand that there's been, out of these 206 victims, known victims. There's more for sure, yeah. But I can understand the fact that there would be some who are like suicidal, have suicidal ideation over this or those who need, I'm sure most of them, if not all of them, will need ongoing psychological support to deal with this throughout the rest of their lives. Yes. It's such a violation. Any rape of any person ever is an absolute violation and such a horrific and traumatic thing to happen to a person.

1:07:34 And I just, I feel for these victims. I feel for the ones who've come forward. I feel for the ones who haven't, because the ones who've come forward have had to re undergo that trauma in terms of giving evidence at his trials and watching the videos of themselves, you know, all of that sort of stuff. And then the ones who haven't come forward, what must they be living with God, you know, so, so many of them would know. I'm sure that. There is men out there, literally who were like, I think maybe that happened to me, that guy.

1:08:03 But they're so like, as in like thinking themselves like, I'd rather not know or do I wanna know and not coming forward like because they're ashamed of that occurring to them. Yeah. Which I that's what I want out of this. I want them to feel that this is not your fault. No, you can come forward and you can move past this, but at the same time get justice for yourself like over it. No one should feel that they can't come forward and say that happened to me and feel a lesser of a person for that. You should feel empowered, if anything, of being able to stand up and say that fucking asshole did that to me and I'm not gonna stand for it.

1:08:45 Yeah, yeah. The four trials, so they started in 2018 and concluded in 2019, each related to different victims. He was found guilty in all of those trials, which of course he was. I mean, it's, as we said, it's irrefutable. Absolutely. He went into a sentencing hearing on the 6th of January in 2020. And the justice, whose name was Suzanne Goddard QC, she sentenced him to life imprisonment with a minimum term of 30 years initially. Yeah. She said at the time as well that report, some reporting restrictions could be lifted.

1:09:22 So this is really when it all started to come out in the media. Yeah. And we knew a little bit more about it, but it was still very scarce. And it's really only been over the last few years that more and more has come out about this case and about especially with relation to the victims, even though they are still anonymized. Yeah. So it was around this time that you know, the public has learnt of the the nature and the absolute, you know, the horrendousness of of what he did now in 2025, was it they went to re sentence him?

1:10:00 Was it that? Late. I thought it was earlier than that. Maybe it was earlier. Than that yeah it was within the last few years anyway they've gone to re sentence him because it's it was found that he and there were two other perpetrators of heinous sexual crimes who the prosecution said for all three of these particular men that their sentences were grossly inadequate. Yeah. And so they actually went to be resentenced and thankfully Sanaga did receive a further. Was it further for the 10 years, 10 years, was it been increased to to 40 years?

1:10:36 Non. Parole, he will hopefully never get out. So what that means is that I think by the time he's 77 or something like that, that he will be eligible for parole. Yeah. I just hope that never happens. It's in 2060 or something. My bigger. Concern is something that's happened in the meantime and I believe this was sort of around about 2025 the Indonesian government. Oh yeah, it was have on to the UK government and requested like basically a transfer of repatriation of yeah of inmates. So basically Senegal was beaten in prison pretty heavily.

1:11:13 And so they they stepped forward and said like, well, we'd like to bring him back to Indonesia and then we'll give you Auk prison inmates out of an exchange for that. It hasn't occurred. Now, the reason that I really, really don't want that to occur is because in Indonesia, as we know from like Indonesian jails in general, you can buy your own comfort, you know, like there's a bit more bribery that is allowed to occur. So because his family is so wealthy, there is a very strong belief that Senaga could end up in a.

1:11:47 It would remain in jail, However, he would have probably a private cell with, you know, a nice cushy couch, a nice comfy bed, Internet access, all sorts of things that he shouldn't. Yep, absolutely should not have so I I would not want him being moved. I mean, I understand I'd ever out of perspective of like, why should the UK government taxpayers have to pay for him to be in jail because he offended? Against UK citizens. Get that and. I I back that, but also like, I understand that, you know, like, why should we have to spend our money and some other.

1:12:17 He should go back to Indonesia and they should have to fork the money out for him because he's a piece of shit. Yeah. But unfortunately their system is not going to give the same justice, justice quality. So I just feel like, no, he needs to stay in the UK in prison there for the rest of his life and not go back to Indonesia. I strongly feel that. I hope that that doesn't occur. It's gone quiet on it at the moment and nothing else has been brought up about it, so I hope that it doesn't go anywhere.

1:12:44 Yeah, but I'm. Still gonna linger over him. I think for the rest of his time in jail. Agree. It could be. It could occur. Yeah. I think there'd be uproar if it was to occur. I know that the public have already spoken about it and said no, yeah, that's not to happen. So I am sure that that the UK government will do all they can to keep him where he is. Well, it's it's. He offended in their jurisdiction. So does that mean they have the the right to detain him? To detain him? It's hard, I mean. Actually citizenship and where does that yeah, but I mean he.

1:13:14 Offended in the UK, so he's gone against the law in that country. He should be pun of. Yeah, yeah, I don't know. I actually. Know how that? International law stuff works. No, I'm not sure either. When he was beaten in prison, he pretty much nearly died. Yeah, yeah. So just don't. Maybe no. No, not at all. But, you know, maybe that'll happen before he can be extradited. I don't. Yeah, they're clearly not keeping him isolated, you know, Should they? No. I think he's think Jen Pop is the place you report you.

1:13:41 So yeah, I found some reactions of his family about this. So this was some of this has been reported in Indonesian newspapers. Others have been reported in, like, through Meteor outlets in the UK because so his mom is definitely more outspoken than his dad in terms of, like, she's given little quips and tidbits. And she did do a very brief interview with a journalist from the BBC, but it wasn't like a formal interview. I think it must have been out the front of court or something. But so Norma Watty, his mom, said in this interview that the family does not believe in homosexuality and they were unaware that he was gay.

1:14:20 She referred to him as her baby and she insists that he is absolutely incapable of this cruelty. Now I say that, right? But she only ever attended his first trial. She didn't attend the subsequent 3 trials. Didn't like watching what? Your son was doing 100%. Funny that. His father. After the final, sorry after the sentencing, the only quote I could find from his dad, like a direct quote from his dad, was we accept the verdict. His punishment fits his crimes. I don't want to discuss this case any further.

1:14:56 Fair, fair. Good. Let's leave it at that. Yeah. Now the other thing that we didn't talk about was want to repeat though. Him being gay is still nothing to do with these crimes. No, not at all. I just want to make sure we really clearly state that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That it's the fact that his family, his mother, has focused on that aspect of him being, you know, part of this is just like, you've actually missed the point. It's totally irrelevant. Irrelevant. One of the things in his defence we talked about like the fact that he said that he hadn't, that you know, that these men were willing participants and that was role play and all of that.

1:15:32 They also had another defense. So. So during the trial, it came out that Sanaga had said to his mum that his victims were actually the ones who initiated the sex, but then accused him of rape to hide their own shame at being with a lady boy.

1:15:52 And that was what she held on to and ran with. No, no. I mean, OK, he wasn't, but he. Wasn't a lady boy no like. So you see photos and everything but *** and you look at him and go, OK, if he was who he's trying to make out, he is right kind of thing in that he's a openly gay man who is, you know, mild, meek, gentle, helpful, all those those that they are the qualities that he's trying to portray that he is right. If that was plain and simply the case, added to that, he was actually a very quite good looking man, right?

1:16:31 You cannot tell me that if he was after like just meeting gay men and meeting, you know, having sex lots of sexual partners. He could have had many, many sexual partners consensually. I can oh, but this absolutely guarantee that if he was who he wanted, he wants to say he is, he would have had plenty of consensual partners. But that's the thing. As you were saying before, that's not what he wanted. No, that's not who he. Was it's not what he wanted. He wanted non consensual partners. He wanted control.

1:17:00 I mean the fact that. He was taking photos of the outcome of his rapes. What I'm saying is like those really close up photos of him post rape. Yeah, and the victims post rape. I think that says it all to me. Absolutely. It's the most heinous and disgusting of things to do, but yet that's what you choose to keep as your trophy. Like you liked that? You liked seeing that you had that control. Over. That power over these men who are just completely out of it. Oh. That's it. Well, I mean, it's the only way he could have had power over these men was by drugging them.

1:17:41 Yeah, you know, like, and I think he wanted to think that he could have that power over them at any point. Like, and it's just he's just awful. Yeah. The most lowest of humans. I don't even think he's human, to be honest. I mean, psychologically, I mean, he's definitely a psychopath. It was it was labeled as sort of actually extreme narcissist. He had has complete not a lack of empathy and and just obsession with control and power. So as we talked about SO and I think he was actually physically or I think he was incapable entirely of having a consensual relationship.

1:18:17 Yeah, I. Just. It's just gross. There was I where did I hear that? It was in a podcast I listened to. So I and I haven't, I didn't actually, I wasn't able to validate this, so take it with a grain of salt, but I believe he did have a relationship with a man, a consensual relationship with a man in university when he was in Indonesia for a year or something, but it fizzled out. Like there was no he wouldn't have given him what? He didn't. Exactly, he didn't. Get out of it what he wanted. I'd be interested to.

1:18:53 Know who that man was and how I don't. I'd love to know. I reckon you'd find out that that man, like now, reflecting on it, sees that relationship is abusive in some way. Yeah, there would have been some element of abuse to that relationship, I can guarantee it. Because he's just not capable of what, love or, you know, any of those sorts of emotions. So no, he's just dead. Inside, yeah, yeah. There's nothing. There's nothing there. No, there's no human in there. No. Oh. No. Those I just, I really feel for the victims, as we always do, but this is just I feel for those.

1:19:27 Victims who don't even know their victims still too, in that sense of like, it's just the thought of like, I'm sure there's men, you know, in the UK who are going, oh, I don't know that I'm a victim. Could I been like genuinely to even have that kind of just. Curiousness about it I'm not. Knowing, yeah, I live in the area, I don't remember going to his house, but then maybe I wouldn't remember like that's that's what he's done to just thousands and thousands of people and of like, yeah the. Other thing that now this is, again, this is a really big stretch, but around the same time that all of this was being perpetrated in Manchester, there was a Manchester.

1:20:11 Serial killer, right? So they. Don't know. There's, there's not a lot proven with this. So they don't know who this person is. They don't even know if it's one person or if it's multiple people. They've stopped. But The thing is a lot of bodies, when I say a lot, a few bodies were turning up in the Manchester River. Now, they were often students because it's a student town, you know, that's, I guess that's neither here nor there. In a lot of the cases, it was unable to be determined how these people died, right?

1:20:49 So the inference there is that could it have been like a GHB overdose? Because some of these bodies weren't found for weeks, potentially. And so by the time it came to being able to do any toxicology analysis on them, the GHB would be gone, right? And what? And were I dare say I mean. The videos that they had though, like those I, I, I would hope, I would hope that the police have cross checked and gone that. But what I'm saying is found dead isn't in these videos. You know what I mean? Like I I get that.

1:21:20 Yeah, but I also think like how how lucky was he to have drugged hundreds of men? Yep. And not killed any of them, not overdosed any of them. Well, because I've just been. Repeatedly giving them drugs to keep them and they're all. Different body weights and sizes and shapes and, Yep, different metabolisms. I just, I it's, it's a question I have like definitely. How did no one die? Yeah. How or did they, or did they? Yeah. You know, there's a definite question mark about that. I'd like to know. Timelines of like so a lot.

1:21:53 Of these were actually before, I can't, I haven't written it down the exact thing, but I know a lot of them were sort of before that 2015 time frame, so. 2015 and 2017 Had he honed his craft yet? That I, I don't know, but I think there still were a few victims in there. So what the police thought at the time was that there was some kind of serial killer or group of killers because these people were being found in a similar manner, found dumped in this river. Yeah. And so they still to this day don't know whether there was a serial killer, whether these people are, you know, committed suicide or drown themselves or something had happened.

1:22:31 Like they don't actually know. There wasn't like, an established MO. OK I need to deep. Dive this more. I'm like come. Across that as I was. Researching. Yeah. So I don't. I don't know, I didn't actually look into it in any like great depth. I just know that I'm busy tonight. There was just a bit of a suggestion that like, how did no one die? And if someone did die, what did he do with them? But also, I see what you're saying with the fact that there's no video evidence, but then there are people who are in those videos who have yet to be identified 100%.

1:23:01 So I only say I would hope that that's what they've crossed. Checked those? Yeah, because I mean. They definitely are. I guess there's in some of the videos, it's harder to see a face and then to try and get a face and then match that with, you know, an ID of some sort. I mean, it's an incredibly challenging task for the the investigators to do. Absolutely. But I would hope that they'd be like, OK, here's an image of all these people who died that at some point the cops have gone right. Well, let's out of the 50 we've got left.

1:23:27 Let's sit and go. Is there any element that we think maybe this is the person? Surely that's been done. I mean, there's, I assume so. Yeah, surely. Sure. If not, fucking how we'll get on it I'm sure. I'm sure they have, yeah, but. Because I have to. Say, like the police work in this, aside from them not believing Peter at the start, the police work in this was really good. They were on top of everything. They have really thoroughly investigated it. They have done their absolute best in supporting the victims.

1:23:55 You know, they've done, the police have really done all the rights they did, they put. All the counselling in place that needed to be like that. To this day, like they're still continuing to do that. There's so much that they have done absolutely, really right. I mean, got it wrong at the, you know, at the initial point there. But. But they got back on track, thank God. Yeah. But yeah, that's really got me now I want to go back and have a look at that. Interesting that it stopped. Yeah, I would have thought that it would have exceed they because I mean more like escalation and behaviour.

1:24:22 You would think you'd see more of the death. To me, this wouldn't be an escalation. This would have been an accidental thing. Because I think for him, the control was that these men were then walking around out there, he knew that he'd raped them and they didn't know. So was it just accidental overdoses? And he's like, oh fuck it, what am I going to do with his body? I better but I feel like the psychopath. In him then would be more like, well I got away with the murder, I'll just keep murdering them like I've had them wandering around and potentially then remembering something.

1:24:48 Because I think he liked the fact that they were then walking around. Maybe he was going to. Get caught too. Yeah, true. I don't know, because I can't get in the mind of a fucking psychopath. Yeah. Weird. Yeah, Yeah. Oh, I'm so deep. Diving though, don't know. Right. OK. Anyway, thanks for joining us, everyone. This one was a a really, you know, it was a big one. But as we said at the start of this episode, important story to tell. Absolutely. You know, as a victim of rape, I really hope that these men are, you know, not ashamed.

1:25:24 They shouldn't be. They've got nothing to be ashamed of. But I can also understand why they why they would be. Yeah. We stand with them, we are with them. We are so sorry that it happened to them and no one, no one deserves to have that happen to them. So yeah, made this piece. Of shit rot in jail in the UK for the rest of his life. Well said. Maybe with beating. Here and there, yeah. Yeah. All good. All right, well, join us over at Patreon or over on the socials. We'll see you next week. Stay curious, crime besties.

1:26:00 Bye.