Episode 86 - Reynhard Sinaga: The Serial Rapist

0:15 Welcome to Crime Besties. We're here for another episode

0:17 this week. Thank you for joining us.

0:20 We are recording our second. Well, really technically our

0:23 third episode for the week. Yeah.

0:24 And I don't know. I'm just not in it.

0:30 I'm really sorry. I know I'm really sorry in

0:32 advance. So it's all good.

0:34 Seriously doing this, doing this on the school holidays as well.

0:37 I'm like it's. Out of routine.

0:39 It's out of routine. We're doing it at different

0:40 times of the day. It's just, you know, we're

0:43 throwing. We're throwing doesn't clearly

0:45 doesn't take much to throw us. But here we are.

0:48 We just. Don't have enough wine in this,

0:49 That's that's what in the. Morning.

0:51 Now, you're absolutely right. That's 100% what it is.

0:54 Oh gosh, I think I'm right because you got me a coffee so

0:56 I'm good now. Yeah, good.

0:57 Now. Well, I feel like I am literally

0:59 just full of caffeine and dry shampoo today, so sorry, what?

1:05 Well, I was gonna have a wash. I had a shower this morning.

1:08 I was gonna wash my hair and then I was like, I reckon I can.

1:12 Get more to another. Day so I've literally emptied.

1:15 I have to go today and buy more dry shampoo because I don't have

1:19 any left and I'm just like, my hair is oh, I've found such a

1:22 good one. I cannot find a good one.

1:23 OK, this will be great for you too, because you've got dark

1:26 hair, so it's slightly tinted brown.

1:30 Yeah. So that it never looks white.

1:32 Yes, in your hair. It's an Australian brand, so I

1:36 love that. I love to buy Australian where I

1:37 can. Yes, O&M. 00.

1:40 Dry. Dry queen shampoo.

1:42 Yeah, Dry queen. I think brunette.

1:44 OK, Dry Queen. It's so good.

1:46 It's the best dry shampoo I've. I've never used a good one.

1:50 Yeah, well, you know what? Same.

1:53 Yeah, now that I've used this. OK, same.

1:55 I. Can Oh and amazing.

1:56 I just use their shampoo. I just it's so expensive.

1:59 It's very that I'm like, I've just had to go down a notch from

2:02 it. Yeah, I change up my shampoo

2:04 regularly. Like not regularly.

2:06 I stick to 1. I stick to 11 is my go.

2:08 To I love. 11 I love 11 because it's price marked.

2:11 It's OK in terms of that, but it's like it is a good shampoo,

2:14 although I have to use a ton. I have to admit I don't use

2:17 their conditioner. I use their like.

2:19 Treatment yeah the seven day miracle mask and yeah I love

2:22 that of conditioner because my head is a.

2:25 Hell of a lot of it. And it soaks up all their

2:26 conditioner I like real quick. But O&M is my go to of like when

2:30 I'm, I'm going like I need a change just to give my hair a

2:33 shock and get some good shit in there.

2:35 And yeah, so, Oh no, I can believe that that that would be

2:37 really good. I will give that a go.

2:39 Do it, try it, but won't. You won't regret.

2:41 It my texture of my hair sometimes whatever doesn't like

2:43 go well with dry shampoo. Well, that that's the thing.

2:45 Because I'm the same. I mean, we've got very different

2:47 hair, but I still feel like it would work for you.

2:49 Yeah. So my hair's really thin and

2:52 fine, but that would often mean that when I use dry shampoo it

2:56 makes it look really dank. And gross.

3:00 Yeah, but this, I feel like I can use it a few days in a row.

3:02 Really. Yeah.

3:04 Yeah. And you know me, I used to wash

3:05 my hair every single day. Yeah, I don't anymore now that

3:07 I've found this dry. Shampoo.

3:08 Well, that's amazing. Yeah, that says a lot.

3:10 Yes well I mean cuz I can't put a brush to my hair though in

3:12 between no so. But that's fine.

3:14 I don't, I don't either. I just like give it a bit of a

3:17 Jewish. I mean today it's, you know,

3:19 it's very, very dry shampoo like I probably haven't washed my

3:22 hair in for to be going on four day.

3:24 This would be my 4th day, which is massive for me.

3:27 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. One of my girlfriends, Michelle,

3:29 has the thickest hair of anyone I know.

3:32 I know you've got really thick and a lot of hair, but yeah, but

3:36 my God, Michelle, her ponytail is like thick to mine.

3:39 I. Used to not get to get hair.

3:40 Ties. Yes.

3:41 To go like I'd only get them around twice, I couldn't get

3:43 them that third one round. Michelle is exactly just.

3:45 Trying to find good hair ties that would work with my hair.

3:48 Yeah, she is exactly the same, but she can go for like over a

3:52 week without washing her hair. Because it's so.

3:54 Thick and there's so and it takes her forever.

3:57 You know, for me, it's not that big of a deal because my hair is

3:59 short, thin, fine. I can wash, shouldn't be.

4:02 And blow dry it within half an hour.

4:03 Yeah, right. Where she's like, this is a

4:05 process because then she blow dries it and straightens it and

4:08 oh, God, Like, her hair always looks gorgeous.

4:10 But I'm like, it's an effort for her.

4:11 But I've never really, I've never had to worry about.

4:14 Oh. God, my head like never dries

4:16 either. Yeah.

4:17 Yeah, yeah. Oh gosh.

4:19 Amazing. I'm gonna try.

4:20 Give it a go, Give it a go. Sponsors.

4:24 Yes, please. Oh my God.

4:25 Imagine if O&M spot. Oh my God, that would be

4:27 amazing. I've got a list of them.

4:28 The salon I go to now uses O&M, so that's how I found out about

4:32 it. But yeah, this is.

4:33 It's so good. Yeah, love it.

4:35 Oh, so good. How's your.

4:36 It's been a short week, a short turn around.

4:38 We recorded our last episode on a Monday and today's Friday, so

4:42 we haven't had a lot of time to, you know, turn this around.

4:45 But how's your short week been? Yeah, it's been good.

4:48 I haven't been doing, I've been doing stuff like around the

4:51 house stuff. Like I said to you, I spent like

4:53 all day Wednesday in the garden and it was the perfect day for

4:56 it because the weather here in Melbourne has turned to shit

4:58 last couple of days. But Wednesday was the most

5:00 spectacular day. Outside beautiful.

5:03 I mean, you know, trackies in a T-shirt was all was required,

5:06 you know, kind of thing. It wasn't like it was stinking

5:08 hot or anything. But no, it was cool enough to be

5:11 doing hot sweaty work kind of thing and not feeling hot and

5:13 sweaty. Yeah, yeah.

5:15 But my God, my body after that, Jesus Christ, bending over,

5:19 pulling out weeds and shit. And yeah, so my legs were

5:21 killing me. Yeah, yeah.

5:23 It just, it goes to show you don't do that movement.

5:25 Very often. Exactly, Yeah.

5:28 Yeah. Yeah, it's different stuff to

5:29 what I normally do, that is for sure.

5:31 Yeah. And oh, the other ones like,

5:32 'cause I was using like the Clippers and things doing like,

5:35 you know, you know, chopping back some of the plants and

5:37 things, my forearms and holding like the whipper sniper and

5:40 stuff. I'm like, Jesus, my forearms

5:42 were so sore. Do you wanna know what I've got?

5:44 A really amazing hidden talent. Oh God, I I don't know if I've

5:48 mentioned this on the pod before actually, so sorry if I have.

5:52 I am really good at hedging a Bush.

6:06 For real, For real I am. You need your Bush hedged.

6:12 I'll come and I think. I'll be right, thanks.

6:22 Jesus, why does your mind always go to the gutter?

6:24 I'm talking about the bushes in your garden, dude.

6:27 So we've got we've got like a box hedge out the front and then

6:30 we've got another hedge on the on our side of our driveway.

6:33 Fuck, I am. So I don't even need a string

6:35 line. I've just got the eye for it.

6:37 I've got now. Actually, my dad gave me his old

6:42 an old hedger if he's like an electric battery operated.

6:45 One like yeah. It's changed my life because I

6:47 used to do it with the manual cutters, but I'm still really

6:50 good at that too. It's just a talent I have.

6:54 Oh. Well done, well done.

6:56 No, I do. I mean, I've got a long driveway

6:58 and I like to just go down and just trim everything back.

7:00 And yeah, and I've got electric ones that I use on, on some of

7:02 that. Not that it's, it's not hedging

7:04 though, like it's not hedges that you want like shaped.

7:08 Lovely. Whatever you want.

7:14 As long as you don't make it the full Brazilian, it's fine.

7:16 Yeah, exactly. Oh God, I am so not a gardener.

7:20 Would happen very. Yeah, yeah, knowing you.

7:23 I know because I I can't grow anything, you know, like,

7:26 although I have to say that my indoor plant recently that I

7:28 yeah, recently I messaged both you and.

7:30 Other friend about start of this.

7:32 Year How long will. It was January and I was like, I

7:34 think I gave you four months, so we're coming up for it.

7:37 It is healthy. It's wow.

7:40 It's doing well. No, I'm gonna make it 6 months I

7:42 reckon. Holy moly, that's a record for

7:44 Call for me, Yeah. Yeah, but yeah.

7:47 But I do have one thing in my garden that somehow I have

7:50 managed to grow stupidly and in abundance of roses.

7:55 Yeah, my rose standard rose out the front it like grows to the

8:00 over my roof line like I have to chop that thing back so

8:03 regularly. Well.

8:04 That's probably why it's so healthy.

8:05 Well, there's the thing. I'm like, it's like, stop

8:07 growing. And I chop it and then more, I

8:08 chop it, of course, grows. Yeah.

8:09 And it's like, Oh my God, stop growing.

8:11 And you're obviously, you're obviously chopping it at the

8:14 right time too, because they can be a bit fickle.

8:16 Well, that's what I thought and I thought if anything I'm gonna

8:18 kill it. And I've done the complete

8:20 opposite and I need it to stop. Probably 1 of the only Rose

8:25 owners who says that. Oh.

8:27 My God, it's ridiculous. This thing gets so tall and

8:29 because it's got these massive thorns on it too that are that

8:33 are chop and I'm like I have to chop and run because like it

8:36 falls and I don't want to land on me.

8:40 Do you wear gloves? Yeah, yeah.

8:41 OK. But like, it still goes through

8:42 the yeah. I need to get better gloves.

8:43 You need leather gloves? Yeah, those leathery tough

8:46 gloves. Yeah, yeah, Oh yeah.

8:48 It's a whole thing. I'm not great in the garden.

8:49 I'm like, I'm just freaking get this done and yeah, chop

8:52 everything and make it die and then I'll do it.

8:55 I'm really good at growing his weeds so.

8:57 Yeah. Oh, good on ya.

8:58 Yeah, that's something, yeah. Are you gonna tell the people

9:00 what you did last night? Yeah, I guess we could tell.

9:07 Dragged Emma to go and hold my hand because I went and got a

9:10 tattoo. Yeah, because you were talking

9:13 about this on the podcast. I don't know.

9:15 Many, many, many months ago. Oh, really?

9:17 Yeah. You were like, oh, maybe one day

9:19 I would get a tattoo. I don't know.

9:20 Maybe I'd get this. Maybe I'd get that.

9:22 Yeah. And it happened last night.

9:24 Yeah, yeah, I went and got the one that I've been, like

9:26 thinking about for a long time. So I wanted to get something to

9:28 like represent my kids so well, represent.

9:30 And then slash, I had a whole plan of just a representational

9:36 tattoo of my kids and I showed it to both of my kids.

9:40 My older one just doesn't care about stuff like that, whereas

9:43 my younger 1 is very into particular things.

9:47 And he was like, no. What was it?

9:50 It was their birthdays and it had like, so ever since my kids

9:53 were really little, I used to say to them like, I love you to

9:55 the moon and back. And we all have, we have this

9:57 whole thing of like, it got to this point where again, my nerdy

9:59 oldest son where we take talk about, you know, to the moon and

10:02 back, like, you know, 1,000,000 * 1000, you know, 100 million

10:06 times like, and it got to a point where you're talking

10:08 about, you know, really big, huge mathematical numbers like

10:11 Googleplex. But then it got to like Graham

10:13 numbers, right? Like that he learnt about as so

10:15 it's grown over time. And so it was this whole little

10:17 thing of like, back to the moon and back, right?

10:20 So I was going to put that as a little thing on it as well of

10:22 like, their birthdays and to the moon and back.

10:24 And yeah, so but Brody was like, I get what you're doing, but no,

10:30 yeah, no, he goes, I want my name.

10:33 Literal. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

10:35 So I'm like, I wasn't really going to do names, but we've

10:38 ended up with names. Yeah, yeah.

10:40 Love it. I love the script of it, it's

10:42 really nice. Yeah, I can show it in the

10:43 camera for anyone's like, oh, I don't know if I can actually.

10:46 Not really. Nice.

10:47 It's it's still got, no, you can't really see it, but it's

10:49 still got the like second skin stuff.

10:51 On it, Yeah, yeah. Because it's so fresh, so, so

10:54 fresh. Love it.

10:55 Yes, all good. Thanks for coming.

10:58 Oh, that's all right. It was.

11:00 I mean, I've had my eyebrows tattooed, but obviously I

11:02 couldn't see that, No. So I've never actually watched

11:05 anyone get a tattoo before so it was good.

11:08 New experience. Yeah.

11:10 Emma's nose was right in there. Oh.

11:11 Yeah, I was like, I need to see this.

11:13 They're. Blood Brindle, yeah.

11:17 She was lovely, the girl who did it, She's awesome, very good.

11:19 Highly recommend the Fine Lines tattoo again.

11:21 If they want to sponsor us, yeah.

11:25 Very good, very very good. We I took the boys to the cold

11:30 stream pump track yesterday yes for you know, just to get them

11:34 out of the house and it was so cool like if anyones in or

11:38 around the area in the Yarra Valley in in Victoria.

11:42 It was actually such a lovely morning out.

11:45 The weather turned to shit at about 1:00, but that was fine.

11:48 We we were home just in time. Yeah yeah, it was really great

11:52 fun. There's heaps of like good

11:53 bakeries and stuff out there and it.

11:56 Turns lovely awesome right on brewery as.

11:57 Well, but, well, Ollie, Ollie was like, can we go to the

12:00 brewery for lunch? But we had the dog.

12:02 So I'm like, oh, just outside there you can, but the weather

12:04 was turning. Yeah.

12:06 So yes, we ended up just bakery ING it.

12:10 He's had a really good strawberry farm too.

12:12 We can go strawberry picking. But it's not.

12:13 There anymore is. It it's there, but they don't

12:16 open to the public to strawberry pick there anymore.

12:19 There's one not far up the road, but true.

12:21 Yeah, yeah. That one was really, I remember

12:22 going there with like, yeah, he's really little.

12:24 Yeah, I remember being in the parking lot and like Brody ate

12:26 like his first strawberry. Like Mason had down half the

12:29 Punnett already. And Brody, I think ate his first

12:31 one. He was really little.

12:32 And like, I remember him just being covered in strawberry,

12:34 like his entire face. It was so.

12:37 Cute yeah, I love it. I love a fresh strawberry Oh

12:40 yeah Yum Yum Yum Yum so good very good kings very good fun

12:44 Yep. I do have a shout out for today

12:46 and this, this person deserves a massive, massive shout out

12:50 because not only is she a Patreon supporter, who?

12:54 Yes, I'm. You know exactly what I'm

12:56 talking about. Yeah, not only is she a Patreon

12:58 supporter who comments on so many of our things, she shares

13:02 our things. She likes our Instagram posts.

13:05 She also has in the past bought us coffees and this week bought

13:10 us more coffees, significantly more coffees.

13:13 And so a massive, massive shout out to our Patreon superstar,

13:17 Emma James. Like we cannot, we appreciate

13:19 all of our Patreons, everyone who supports us in any way,

13:23 sharing, commenting and all of that.

13:24 But I feel like, you know, Emma does really go above and beyond

13:28 and I her feedback's always so positive and lovely.

13:31 She's so kind and very, very generous.

13:33 So thank you, Emma. Thank you so much.

13:36 I loved hearing like she wrote the message sort of saying like,

13:38 because the episode we replayed an episode, then we were like,

13:40 she's well, I better do that again then.

13:42 Yeah, we shouted around that episode that we replayed.

13:45 Oh my God, it's so lovely of you.

13:47 So, so lovely. No, you don't need to do that,

13:50 but it is very much so appreciated.

13:51 Oh. Gosh.

13:53 So good. Yeah, we have so many great

13:55 listeners. So many great listeners.

13:56 We, our support, our base, our supporter base is just, it's

13:59 growing and it's so lovely, overwhelmingly positive and and

14:03 nice. So thank you everyone.

14:05 Yeah. Oh, I was gonna say like, come

14:07 over and join us over on Patreon.

14:08 We're gonna record another episode for there soon I think.

14:12 So we're gonna, you'll have another one new over there very

14:15 shortly. Yeah.

14:16 But we're sort of building that now I think too, which is really

14:18 great in the community there. So we're come and join us and

14:21 check it out and we may have a little competition or something

14:24 soon over in our Patreon or. Maybe some merch.

14:27 We absolutely will. So once our merch is available,

14:30 we are going to have a bit of a giveaway to our Patreon.

14:33 So if you're a member over there, you'll just go

14:36 automatically into the draw to win some some of our merch.

14:40 So awesome join up if that's something that you might want to

14:43 go into the draw for. Amazing how much is due to

14:46 arrive any day. Now, well, I think it's actually

14:48 we're getting the first dump of it today.

14:51 Yeah, yeah. And then the second, keep an eye

14:53 out on the door. If you hear the doorbell, that's

14:55 actually what it'll be. I got the notification today.

14:59 And then the second lot of stuff is coming next Tuesday.

15:02 I think so. At the minute we see it and go

15:04 yes. It'll be available.

15:06 Like keep an eye out on our socials.

15:08 Yeah, we're recording at the minute, a little bit in advance

15:10 for sure. So keep an eye on the socials

15:12 because that's where you're going to find out about it.

15:14 Hopefully when you're hearing this episode, it's been dropped.

15:16 Oh my God, that would be so exciting.

15:18 That's so cool. Yes.

15:19 Let's hope it's all good. Jesus.

15:21 OK, I think. I think it will be, I think.

15:24 I'm pretty confident in the quality of the items.

15:26 It's whether or not like the placements and everything has

15:29 worked and that sort of thing. But that's easily tweakable.

15:31 Exactly. That's, I think that anything

15:32 that we're going to we need to do with it will be tweakable and

15:35 we'll be able to get it out. Particularly quickly after yes,

15:37 agreed, I'm very. Confident in I'm confident En's

15:40 ability at the moment because doing amazing.

15:43 Work. Oh my God.

15:44 I don't know. I don't know if you should, but

15:45 let's wait and see for it to come before you give any, you

15:48 know, outlandish statements like that, OK?

15:50 I love it. All right.

15:51 My mum's already like I needed zip up hoodie like and I want so

15:55 she's like my mum. Said My mum's like, I'm gonna

15:58 wear the piece of shit hoodie to school pick up.

16:00 I'm like, no, you're not. With everyone else at the

16:02 moment. Yeah, I know.

16:04 Well, actually, that's true. She won't be the only one like

16:09 Mum. At least we're the like.

16:10 I don't know. Yeah.

16:11 Something a bit more. Like the stay curious one?

16:16 Everyone wants the piece of shit.

16:17 Yep. I mean fair.

16:19 Yeah. Yeah.

16:20 We love that. We love.

16:21 That we do. That's what we're here for.

16:22 We love it for you guys. Yep.

16:24 Yeah. All right, let's get into

16:25 today's episode we've been waffling on for far too long.

16:27 Before we get really, really into it, into it, let's just do

16:30 a little warning, I think too, Yeah, because today we're going

16:33 to talk about extreme sexual violence, drugging,

16:37 psychological trauma, like. So I think we just need to warn

16:40 people. And violence against young

16:42 people, so people under the age of 18 in certain circumstances

16:45 as well. That's true.

16:46 So I think we just need to warn everyone and just say like, you

16:49 know, take care of yourself. And if this isn't the episode

16:51 for you, then you know that's cool.

16:53 Come back, please. Move along.

16:54 But yeah, all good. But let's just be, yeah?

16:57 I think that's a really fair warning.

17:00 I mean, all of our episodes deal with pieces of shit, but this

17:03 one's, look, I think we'll get into this as we talk about it,

17:06 but I think because of the nature of what it is, it's it's

17:09 almost more jarring because it's not something we hear about or

17:11 know about very often. No, which we need to, I think.

17:14 That's why we need to speak about it.

17:15 That's right. That's why we.

17:16 Chose this case because it's not I don't know about you so we're

17:19 we're discussing the the case against Reynard Sanaga so he

17:27 perpetrated untold well we will be talking about spoken has been

17:32 the. The largest in the world.

17:34 Amount of rapes that one person has committed.

17:37 Yeah, that, yeah. God, it's just absolutely

17:39 horrific. But when somebody actually won,

17:44 somebody suggested this case to us, and that's why it made it

17:47 onto our list. Yeah.

17:48 And when we were looking into sort of when we were planning

17:51 out our episodes, we sort of looked into it.

17:53 Now, I very, very vaguely had an idea of this case.

17:57 Yeah. Not in any detail whatsoever.

17:59 And I didn't know the resolution to it.

18:01 Yes. And a lot of that is 'cause

18:03 there was a lot of suppression around the time that it actually

18:05 happened. Yeah.

18:06 And stuff sort of very much trickled out in the media over

18:10 the the subsequent years. But I think it's a really,

18:15 really important story to tell. I really do too.

18:18 I. More the more I got into this,

18:19 like in researching it I felt like this has got to be spoken

18:23 about. Yeah, agreed.

18:24 Yeah. All right, let's get into it for

18:26 today then. So Reynard Sanaga was born on

18:30 the 19th of February in 1983 in Jambi, Indonesia, which was a

18:36 part of Sumatra when he was young.

18:39 His family then moved to a town sort of not very far outside of

18:44 Jakarta, like a little city outside of Jakarta.

18:47 And that's basically where he grew up.

18:49 He grew up in a gated community in D pockets called just South

18:54 of Jakarta. And he grew up in a very wealthy

18:59 family. Yeah.

19:00 So his father, whose name where have I got us, is Saban Sanaga.

19:06 He was a or is a businessman. He is.

19:13 I don't think he's the owner, but he's very, very high up in a

19:16 palm oil like factory processing kind of.

19:22 Yeah. He seems to either be.

19:24 A massive investor or it was kind of, I couldn't kind of get

19:27 exactly. It's really just in some places.

19:30 Like he said that he's a banker, but he's not actually a banker.

19:32 So yeah, I see why you think he might be an investor.

19:35 It's it's. Really, the information about

19:37 him is not overly clear. Yeah.

19:39 Around what? Where the monies come from.

19:41 That's other than palm oil, yeah.

19:43 Which is. Dodgy.

19:44 Disgusting. In and of itself, yeah.

19:47 So that that's what sort of. So the plantation I think

19:50 originally was in North Sumatra, which is why they lived there.

19:53 Yeah. And then I think the core

19:55 business dealings were in Jakarta, which is why they moved

19:58 now a very conservative. Family very conservative.

20:04 Catholic family, they his mum Normawati and his dad.

20:11 They had four children, so Reynard is the oldest.

20:15 There were then two boys and a girl and so he's got two

20:19 brothers and a sister. And as you said, they lived in a

20:23 in a conservative Catholic. Upbringing.

20:27 In a largely Muslim country, yes.

20:30 So they. Would have been in the minority

20:32 in terms of their religion, their religious connotations,

20:36 but they absolutely had community there.

20:38 So Raynard, or Ray, as he was known to a lot of people, yeah.

20:43 Was what we would probably call a perpetual student.

20:47 Yeah. Yeah.

20:47 Fair statement. Yeah.

20:49 So he completed a bachelor's degree in architecture in 2006

20:55 at the University of Indonesia. It was, which was their most

20:57 prestigious university. Yeah.

20:59 Apparently he was quite academic.

21:01 He did very well at school. Really intelligent, Very

21:03 intelligent man. Yeah, then he decided.

21:07 He actually did a very, very, very brief stint in the US after

21:11 that. I think he was there for less

21:13 than three months. He was doing some postgraduate

21:15 degree, didn't like the lifestyle, didn't like the

21:18 people, and decided to move back to Indonesia.

21:21 Interesting. When he moved back, he didn't

21:25 stay in Indonesia for very long, and he decided that maybe the

21:29 culture of the UK might be more suited to what he was kind of

21:32 looking for. So he applied for and was

21:34 admitted to a postgraduate degree in urban planning at the

21:40 University of Manchester. So he actually moved to the UK

21:45 in 2007 on a student visa? Yes, he was aged 24 at the time

21:51 he started studying for this urban planning masters basically

22:00 at that time. Hmm.

22:01 He was completely financed by his family, so plenty of money

22:06 there. To do that he wasn't so he

22:07 didn't work a job was he was OK so.

22:09 There's some a bit of conjecture around this because he claims he

22:13 has claimed they worked for both of the Manchester Football Club.

22:17 So Manchester United and Manchester City, Manchester

22:20 United have come out publicly and said we have nobody by the

22:23 name, by that name, yeah, ever having worked for us.

22:26 Manchester City have just not said anything.

22:29 And then he apparently this is true.

22:32 He did work for Next, you know, the clothing company next year,

22:36 right. He worked there in retail for a

22:39 very short stint and he also sometimes worked at some of the

22:44 bars around where he was living, right?

22:46 But he never had a solid job. It wasn't something that he did

22:49 for a very long time and he didn't.

22:51 Need to because yeah, as we say, he was completely financed by

22:54 his dad, so not only. Did he pay for his tuition?

23:00 He paid for his housing, his food, his recreation Yeah.

23:04 And so yeah, there was number real need for him to be working.

23:07 So that gave him a lot of spare time and for I'm an incredibly.

23:10 Intelligent person who studied, you know, I mean, he also

23:13 studied sociology, like human, human biology.

23:17 He's on a PhD level in the planning.

23:20 I believe it was in the. IT was in human.

23:22 Geography. But he didn't, he didn't get

23:24 that. He didn't detain that.

23:25 So he failed. No, he failed it.

23:27 Oh, that's interesting. Yeah.

23:28 So, so basically, yeah, his thesis.

23:31 So he basically went on and did in 2009, he did that urban

23:35 planning, the masters in urban planning.

23:39 He then went and did sociology, as you said, both of those were

23:42 completed at the University of Manchester.

23:44 Mm hmm. So sociology, he started that in

23:46 2011. Then in 2012, he started this

23:53 PhD in human geography at the University of Leeds.

23:56 Yeah. Now Leeds is about an hours an

23:58 hour away from Manchester. Manchester.

24:01 Yeah. And so he would just commute.

24:03 He didn't want to leave Manchester.

24:04 He was very, very happy there and he liked the lifestyle that

24:08 he was living there. And so he decided to commute for

24:11 his PhD. Yeah.

24:13 His thesis was caught was titled Sexuality and everyday

24:19 transnationalism among South Asian gay men in Manchester.

24:23 It's very. Specific.

24:25 Very. Specific.

24:26 I mean, I know you need. To for a thesis, but I mean,

24:31 yeah, he. Submitted the thesis in August

24:33 of 2016 and the examiners failed him, but they offered him a

24:38 chance to resubmit. They obviously like what?

24:41 Element of it they failed I could.

24:43 Not I could not find on what grounds it failed.

24:47 I I looked because I was like, I'd love to know.

24:50 Was it the insights he had? Was it that the research was

24:53 incomplete? Was it I I don't actually know.

24:55 Yeah. And then it all kind of came

25:00 undone because he was in the process of correcting, and it

25:05 was before his resubmission that all of this kind of came to

25:08 play. So he never actually attained

25:11 his PhD that. Yeah, yeah.

25:13 Oh, no, sorry. So I mean, I guess we should say

25:20 like living in in Indonesia with that conservative family and

25:26 community, obviously now Raynard did feel that he was gay.

25:31 And so in that community, he did not feel comfortable.

25:35 And I guess that's where he was seeking out places where he

25:39 might be more accepted for being who he was.

25:41 Obviously he had the relationship, I would say a good

25:44 relationship, but he had a relationship with his family

25:46 that he wanted to continue. Yeah, for his own benefit in a

25:49 lot of ways. I mean, financially, you

25:50 wouldn't want to piss your dad off and say I'll cut you off

25:52 when he's going to support you and doing all those great things

25:54 like of living overseas and studying, etcetera, and not

25:57 having to work full time to pay your own way.

26:00 So, you know, kept that relationship with his parents

26:03 and never told them his sexuality and spoke of all those

26:06 sorts of things. But so he would 'cause he would

26:08 fly home, living in Manchester, would fly home regularly to

26:11 visit family and he would literally before he would leave

26:14 to go home, he would cut his hair.

26:18 So to the point of how he needed to appear physically to sort of

26:23 fit in at home, he wouldn't need to change that about himself.

26:26 So he would sort of come to Manchester and be who he was, a

26:29 gay man. He was openly gay in Manchester

26:31 to his friends and everyone. He grew his hair sort of

26:34 shoulder length and all these sorts of things that like, I

26:38 mean, I don't think anything of in terms of going, oh, that must

26:40 mean that you're gay like or anything like that, like God.

26:43 But he felt that with going home, he needed he couldn't have

26:46 that longer hair. He couldn't behave.

26:47 He had a certain way. He had a certain image to

26:49 uphold. Yeah.

26:51 Yeah. That's, that's very, very true.

26:53 Yeah. I think at the time.

26:54 So whilst homosexuality wasn't illegal in Indonesia at the

26:59 time, there were certain provinces like Arche where it

27:04 was. Yes.

27:05 So there were certain places where if you were a gay man or a

27:08 gay woman, you could not go there because you would receive.

27:12 It was like brutal old school punishment, like 100 lashings or

27:16 something like that, if you were seen to be partaking in

27:19 homosexual behavior. Yeah.

27:21 And so that goes to show that even though it wasn't illegal in

27:25 Indonesia, it wasn't accepted and it wasn't something that was

27:29 out and sort of overtly visual in the, in, you know, in

27:34 society. While saying that, I think at

27:37 the time in Bali, you know, which is a place that a lot of

27:40 Australians go to have a good time and have a lovely holiday,

27:44 it was more accepted in, in places like that.

27:47 But certainly on the mainland around in and around Jakarta, it

27:50 wasn't something you wouldn't see two men or two women holding

27:53 hands going down the street or anything like that.

27:55 And I dare say. Like his dad in the position

27:57 that he was in with, you know, this kind of money and all those

28:01 sorts of community that he was involved in specifically, it

28:04 became really, that's just not what you do in that community.

28:08 Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

28:10 I mean, I in general, I feel really sad for someone in that

28:13 position of like, not feeling being able to be accepted in

28:15 their own family for who they were.

28:16 I can empathize with that. But then I think.

28:20 He's probably done the right thing to a certain point by

28:23 moving away and finding a community that he fit into.

28:27 So in moving to Manchester, which is, you know, it's

28:32 probably the, you know, the second biggest sort of city

28:35 outside of London and Birmingham maybe.

28:39 But but it's a vibrant urban cultural place.

28:42 It's very hip. There's you've got the

28:45 university there. So it attracts a lot of young

28:47 people, real student, sort of. Town sort of in that sense,

28:50 there's a lot of I mean the area where he lived, it was, you

28:53 know, there was the nightlife there was it was busy and acted

28:56 with like the gay. Village, so lots of gay clubs

28:59 and yeah, a lot of people attracted that that type of

29:04 person around. Yeah.

29:06 You know, it was near Chinatown and there's, as you said, bars

29:08 and restaurants and really vibrant nightlife and fun.

29:13 Lots and lots of fun. People would go there on nights

29:16 out, have a great time and and everything would be all good.

29:19 So Sanaga was actually in Manchester on a student visa,

29:22 which he attained in 2007. And I guess to be on a student

29:26 visa, you have to be studying. So he's gone on and studied for

29:29 the next 10 years in Manchester. Yeah, yeah.

29:32 So he physically was probably, well, it's, it was described in

29:39 one of the articles I was reading that he was a bit of a

29:41 wolf in sheep's clothing. So he was 5 foot 7 or not even,

29:45 not even 5 foot 7, like a few a little bit shorter than 5 foot

29:49 seven. He had a soft voice, a really

29:52 kind of a smiley person, a meek and inoffensive persona.

29:57 Yeah, someone. Described him really, funnily

30:00 enough, as completely harmless, yeah.

30:04 Which I find really. A really interesting wording to

30:06 use of someone that caused so much harm.

30:09 Yeah, his. Persona of.

30:11 What he presented to everyone was quite.

30:13 It's unusual, it's so. Interesting, though, because

30:16 throughout all of this and in doing this research, there's

30:19 people who have that perception of him, right?

30:21 So these were people who were probably more on the periphery,

30:24 yeah. In terms of.

30:26 Acquaintances he had, or people he knew from university, that

30:29 kind of thing. Then you've got his inner circle

30:32 of friends who they actually described.

30:34 Him as a narcissist, yeah. And also just constantly.

30:37 Talk about himself, always talking about.

30:39 Himself and even the way he talked about certain sexual

30:43 conquests and that kind of thing.

30:44 Yeah, he was explicit in his telling over, and this is in

30:47 text messages, this is provable things, yes.

30:50 He wasn't the smartest of people when it came to leaving a trail

30:56 and certainly socially, absolutely not.

30:58 No, he would. He, there was one particular

31:00 text message he wrote. He had like a WhatsApp group of

31:03 his friends and he would put messages in there.

31:05 And what they, they all spoke about was that.

31:07 Well, you can see the messages. They've been sort of shown a

31:09 little bit now. Yeah.

31:10 But a lot of them were around about these conquests that he

31:13 felt really proud of himself for being able to turn a straight

31:16 man. That was kind of his real bow

31:19 and his, you know, Well, I think that's what he.

31:21 Got off on, wasn't it? Well.

31:24 I've got an opinion on that, but yeah, I'll come to that when we

31:26 get there. But yeah, no, he said.

31:28 We write things in these messages about you know, like

31:31 like I should have seen the guy last night that I had sex with

31:34 and he was straight so suck shit to his girlfriend and things

31:38 like that, like that. The language he would use was

31:40 quite overt and everything and yeah, really shoving in peoples

31:45 faces what he was up to sexually behind closed doors, which the

31:49 group were kind of like there was straight and gay people in

31:51 this group. It wasn't like that.

31:52 What, all of one sexual orientation necessarily.

31:54 I don't think so. You know, everyone was.

31:56 I think even that group chat was kind of going mate, we don't

31:58 really need to hear of this. So yeah.

32:00 OK. Like, yeah, like.

32:01 OK. You do you, yeah, sort of thing,

32:04 yeah. So.

32:04 Yeah, He would come across one particular way to sort of

32:07 everyone else generally. Yeah, you know, And then there

32:09 was the inner circle, like where you let I think a little bit of

32:12 a wall down. But I think that's where you

32:13 kind of get this idea of him, like where their case as persona

32:16 of like what he would do for mum and Dad, persona of like at the

32:20 university and keeping his visa and being a student.

32:23 And then there was the persona of what around he's like

32:25 so-called close friends. And then there was another

32:29 personality as well, again, where he would, you know, it's

32:31 like kind of like that little teetering off to like, you know,

32:35 to the real crux of who he was in, you know, in the the bottoms

32:39 of his soul. Yeah.

32:41 And that was that was absolutely horrific.

32:43 So let's let's start at the end, shall we?

32:47 Yeah. Let's start.

32:48 OK. Yeah.

32:49 So. On the 2nd of June in 2017.

32:53 Do you want to start there? Yep, Yep.

32:55 This was a Friday. Night and a man who we only know

33:00 by the name of Peter, that's not his real name.

33:03 A lot of the names and even some of the stories have been

33:07 suppressed in this and that was I can completely understand why

33:14 a lot of these victims are, some of them were underage, so

33:19 absolutely have to be suppressed for.

33:21 That. The a lot of the other ones

33:23 would only come forward if their names were not going to be

33:26 published at all. So the judge was more than happy

33:31 to suppress those people's names.

33:33 And ever since all of this has come to the fore and, you know,

33:38 the conclusion of it has kind of come about really only one

33:42 person has come forward to say this is who I actually AM and

33:47 this is what happened to me. We have heard other anonymized

33:50 stories, but there's only one person who's really put his name

33:53 to yeah, his story and how how it all came out it.

33:57 I mean, I think that's. Where that's where I sort of go.

33:59 Like this got to be spoken about.

34:01 Not because like people have to put their names to these things.

34:03 I don't know, I don't mean that, but the fact is like it's so

34:08 more taboo to talk about men being sexually abused and I

34:13 don't think we should shut it behind closed doors and give men

34:17 the opportunity to speak about these things without feeling

34:21 like they're, you know, the shame of it.

34:23 I mean, look, I. Think women experience shame in

34:27 sexual abuse and sexual assault as well.

34:29 But for a man to be sexually victimized by another man is

34:39 something that we don't hear about a lot.

34:41 And it is. It is certainly in the minority

34:43 in terms of aggravated sexual assaults.

34:46 It's not as common for a straight man to be assaulted by

34:52 a gay man. It's just not.

34:54 Yeah. So.

34:56 Wow. All right, So 2nd of June in

34:58 2017. Peter had been out at Club

35:02 Factory, yes, which was one of the there.

35:05 There were kind of two main clubs.

35:07 There was Factory and 5th, yeah, and people would go between the

35:11 two. There were the two kind of

35:12 hotspots for the university students.

35:15 So Peter was young and he'd been out on a night with his friends

35:20 and his girlfriend and they'd had a really, really great time.

35:23 And by the end of the night he'd kind of lost his friends.

35:27 They'd, I don't know if they'd gone home.

35:28 I don't know what had really happened.

35:30 It was a little bit, yeah, a bit.

35:31 Confusing there, but yeah, just could not, couldn't find contact

35:33 them, Wasn't, yeah, couldn't find them anywhere.

35:35 Sometimes that happens. Yeah, You know, at the end of

35:37 the night, someone's gone, you know, whatever.

35:39 Yeah. So he walks out of the club at

35:41 about 2:00 in the morning, and he's kind of a little bit

35:45 disoriented. He's drunk.

35:46 He's had a big night. Yeah.

35:47 And this unassuming small man comes up to him and says, are

35:54 you OK? Can I help you?

35:57 You can come back to my. I live 2 minutes down the road.

36:00 Well, he said it first. Well, they.

36:01 Spoke for quite some time like you know, it got, he actually

36:03 like they got into a conversation about you know what

36:05 he was studying and at uni and all these sorts of things.

36:08 I was actually, like, real genuine, like, banter

36:10 conversation happening between them for quite a while before.

36:15 Yeah. But then he said, well, hey, you

36:16 know what? I live around just up the road

36:18 here while you wait for your friends.

36:20 It's because it was really cold outside.

36:21 It was freezing cold, Yeah. Come inside to my.

36:24 Place while you wait for your friends to rock up.

36:26 Because I think they'd got a bit.

36:28 He was trying to contact them and wasn't hearing back from

36:30 them. And he's like, they'll get back

36:31 to you. Like, you know, just come inside

36:33 and be warm. Be warm.

36:35 You know, come and have a drink and yeah, yeah.

36:37 Or you wait for them. I'm just right here, like,

36:39 because he did just leave right there.

36:41 Yeah. Very conveniently, Yeah.

36:43 So it was it. It didn't.

36:45 I'm really intrigued by his ability to manipulate people in

36:50 those moments, but I think there's.

36:52 That I also think, and I saw this in an analysis piece by I

36:55 think it was the Guardian, and they basically said that it's

37:01 physically because he was not intimidating at all.

37:04 Yeah. And these were strapping.

37:08 Like I know Peter physically was much larger than him, yes.

37:12 I don't think you'd. Have that same sense of, yeah,

37:14 you know, you'd think, oh, well, if anything happened, I'd just,

37:16 you know, yeah, it'd be fine. Female.

37:18 Like you would never do it. I just would never, like, never

37:20 do that, no. But I cannot.

37:21 Just like then I have to try and put my like, you know, imagine

37:24 yourself a man, Yeah. And kind of go, OK, like, yeah,

37:27 would you do that? And I yeah, well, obviously.

37:29 Obviously a lot of them do. Yeah, a lot of people did this

37:32 because his MO was proven. He he did this so many times.

37:37 So anyway, what's happened is Peter has gone back to his apart

37:41 this lovely man's apartment. Yeah, and he's had a drink and

37:46 the next thing he knows is it's 5:00 in the morning.

37:49 Well. Before that even he remembers

37:52 too that he was given a couple of shots, had a couple of shots

37:55 and he was like unlike the I think he said he went to the

37:59 toilet, Yep and came back and with another shot was left on

38:02 the table and so and Sanaga it was like 2 shots was one a clear

38:06 one and one more brown coloured one which didn't think anything

38:08 too much of at the time. He thought one was Sam.

38:10 Booker and one was vodka. Yeah, he just sort.

38:12 Of really thought just different alcohols.

38:14 Yeah, picked up I think the browner coloured, coloured 1.

38:17 And he drank that. Yep.

38:19 And he said within seconds of drinking it, he felt really not

38:24 right and started stumbling and like and Senaga was like, oh

38:28 mate, you're OK, you're OK, just take a rest, take a rest, you

38:31 know. And he does remember stumbling

38:33 into the bathroom and has memories of that.

38:37 Yep. But then nothing from there.

38:39 Nothing. So the next, I guess conscious

38:42 memory that he's got is he's waking up at 5:00 in the morning

38:46 and his pants and his underwear are down.

38:49 So he's face down on a mattress on the floor.

38:52 His pants and his underwear are around his ankles.

38:56 And he turns around to see Sanaga on top of him with his

39:01 pants with his undies down around his ankles.

39:04 And so Peter's first reaction is to like, basically physically

39:08 push him off and go, what the fuck are you doing?

39:11 Yes, in that Sanaga basically goes you're an intruder, you've

39:16 come into my house and I don't know who you are trying to

39:19 establish some kind of like that a crimes being committed here.

39:23 That's not the sexual assault of Peter.

39:26 And so Peter in his state basically bashes the living shit

39:31 out. Yeah, he does.

39:32 He. He punches him.

39:33 He, you know, thrashes around and everything.

39:35 Senagar also does, though, he runs as as Peter is about to

39:38 sort of get through to the door. Yeah, Senagar does run after him

39:41 and head butts him and also. Bites him on the shoulder.

39:44 Yeah. Like, so deep.

39:46 Like there's actual, like, flesh marks, yeah.

39:49 So in this, you know, again, Peter thrashes back, punches him

39:52 more and gets out through the fire escape and down onto the

39:56 street. So he is completely

39:58 disorientated, Like, he's still druggy.

40:00 Like, kind of. Yeah.

40:01 What the hell is going on? I mean God, I can only imagine

40:04 how scary that. Oh, it would be so terrifying.

40:07 So it's early hours. In the morning here, we're

40:09 talking 5:00 AM. It's not even light.

40:11 No, he's like, what? Where the hell do you go and get

40:12 help? He did find some people too, and

40:15 he was asking for their phone. These people were like, Oh my

40:18 God, what? The whole like, 'cause he's

40:19 bloody, he's colouring blood. Yeah, like what the hell You

40:22 would. I mean, as both ends of that,

40:23 you wouldn't know what to do. But the people eventually do

40:26 hand over their phone 'cause he is shouting at these people.

40:29 You know, I've just been raped. I think I've just been raped.

40:31 Like, you know. So he's got the phone, he's

40:33 called the police. Well, no, he called.

40:34 His mum 1st and she didn't answer.

40:37 She called. He called his mum because he's

40:39 like, my mum would know what to do.

40:41 Oh God, when you just. Call the police, I thought.

40:43 But I mean, she didn't answer 'cause it was. 5:00 in the

40:46 morning, she probably had a phone on silent like all our

40:47 mums overnight or in the other room or something.

40:51 But then, yeah, he dialed 999. Yeah, absolutely.

40:54 And you can hear the phone call and it is harrowing because he's

40:58 so confused. He's like, I think I was raped.

41:01 I'm not sure. I don't really know what

41:02 happens. And he's like, I don't even know

41:04 if I have I killed the guy. Like, I don't know what's going

41:06 on. I'm this is this is like roughly

41:08 where I am. And I don't know how I got

41:11 there. It's he's so confused.

41:13 He's but he constantly says I think I was raped.

41:16 I think I was raped. So the 999 operator says we'll

41:21 get someone to you just are you safe to stay where you are?

41:24 So he does. He stays where he is.

41:26 A police of a couple of police officers attend.

41:29 He's able to point them into the direction of where where he's

41:33 come from. And so they go back up and they

41:36 walk into Raynard's bedroom in their flat, in his flat.

41:41 And Raynard is on the floor, bleeding clear head injury.

41:47 He's not in a good way. So ambulance come.

41:49 He gets stretchered out and taken to Manchester Hospital.

41:53 The police. Then arrest Peter.

41:56 Yep, after seeing Raynard they're like this guy has beaten

42:00 the shit out of this smaller meeker man.

42:03 Clearly the victim is not the victim, it's the other way

42:07 around. And they arrest Peter, which I

42:11 can somewhat understand, but I mean, they're not listening.

42:14 To not listening to him, it's. Which is so frustrating, the

42:16 horrible. Thing is, so I think he ended up

42:18 was he held for like 9 hours or something like that was yeah,

42:21 but he was. Consistent in his story, but

42:24 insane? Yes, he was.

42:26 Consistent. He was saying I've been raped,

42:27 I've been raped. Yeah.

42:28 It took them 48 hours to do a rape kit on him.

42:31 Yeah, They didn't do it immediately.

42:33 Yeah, I mean. The cops kind of when they so

42:36 they I know I totally get it. Like they took Renard to

42:40 hospital like immediately he had they got he stretched him out.

42:44 I just kind of like I see the photos of him on the stretcher

42:47 being taken out and I'm just like, what the fuck, Don't be so

42:49 nice to me. Yeah, like, oh, drag him out.

42:52 But anyway, they because they just assume like this is the

42:54 victim like in this scenario and he's been beaten the shit out of

42:57 by some random person. So they take him off to

42:59 hospital. The police sort of start going.

43:03 They they start twigging to something being a little bit off

43:05 and a bit not right when Sanaga consistently constantly keeps

43:10 asking for his phones, not phone phones like and doesn't let it

43:17 drop like he is so agitated around these phones and like

43:22 having access to them. So I think.

43:24 That's what happened at the 48 hour, Max.

43:26 Yeah, he was in an induced coma for that time, right.

43:29 So under police guard too, because they thought, as you

43:31 said, that he was a victim of this absolutely aggravated

43:34 assault. Yes.

43:35 And so while they had let Peter go on court, like on, you know,

43:40 he was still under suspicion for this crime, but they needed to

43:44 wait until Sanaga woke up to get his side of the story and to get

43:47 his statement. Peter.

43:48 But they. Still weren't taking his story

43:50 for fact until they spoke to Sanaga.

43:52 That's it. So it.

43:53 Wasn't until Sanaga came to, which was at roughly 48 hours

43:56 later, because I think he did have like a little bleed on the

43:59 brain or something like that. And so when he came to, as you

44:03 said, he wants his phone. So the police like, Yep, we're

44:05 gonna go and search your house anyway.

44:07 We've got to get evidence of this crime because the

44:09 apparently the bedroom was very bloodied and there was a lot of

44:12 blood everywhere. There's photos.

44:13 Of like the crime scene, I guess you call it, Yeah, which there's

44:16 a lot of blood, yeah, so. The police are like, well, we

44:18 obviously have to process that as a crime scene.

44:20 Yeah. So in the processing of that,

44:22 they found Sanaga's phones and they're like, yeah, yeah, sure,

44:24 you can have them. We just need to check them first

44:26 because there's possibly stuff in here that we can enter into

44:29 evidence thinking at the time that it would be in support of

44:31 SANAGA. Yeah.

44:33 He gave them like four false, what do you call it?

44:36 Pins to try and get into his phone.

44:39 And he at in the end, he was just like, tried to snatch his

44:42 phone off the police officer who'd kind of taken it to the

44:45 hospital to try and get him to unlock it so they could see what

44:47 was in there. And so that obviously raised

44:51 some suspicions with the police, Like, why?

44:53 Why is there an issue here? They've been able to somehow get

44:57 into his phone. Like, I, I don't know,

44:59 forensics, I don't know someone, someone's gotten into his phone

45:02 somehow. Yeah.

45:03 And what they have found on there on both of them is the

45:08 most horrific and violent sexual perpetration against.

45:14 Yeah, so. Many.

45:16 Men and boys. I'm gonna say boys because some

45:19 of these boys were 17. Yeah, there was.

45:21 Hundreds of hours, literally, so I think there.

45:24 Was there was 3.29 terabytes of data?

45:28 This is up, you know, once they were able to get everything

45:31 between mobile phones. Laptops hard drive the cloud it.

45:34 Was yeah, it was everywhere, everywhere once they got into.

45:36 Everything they found like it was just ridiculous, which is

45:38 like. I think in a TB of data you can

45:40 get like maybe 300 hours of video.

45:43 Well, something like I think I. Heard someone someone say there

45:45 was 330 like DVD's worth of if that, like if people can think,

45:52 yeah, instead like 330 DVD's worth of footage in that 3.2

45:57 terabytes. Wow.

45:58 It's OK. So it's a lot.

46:00 It's a lot. Of footage, a lot of footage,

46:02 and there were still photos and stuff as well.

46:04 Like it wasn't just videos, there were.

46:06 Definitely screenshots. There was photos like yeah, lots

46:09 of lots and lots, lots of evidence.

46:10 So. The police, like holy fuck,

46:13 maybe Peter was telling us the truth.

46:15 And so that that's when they went and got the rape kit done

46:18 on Peter. I mean, two days later, it's not

46:20 ideal, but they were able to do that and tipping at that point,

46:23 so I couldn't. Actually, I don't remember

46:24 reading this anyway, like at that point they wouldn't have

46:26 done like even a blood test, say to go like, what had he been

46:29 drugged with, you know, like, so they didn't even get that

46:31 evidence. I'm guessing after two days that

46:32 would probably be out of his system as well.

46:34 Oh, absolutely. GHP has a very short, really

46:36 short. Lived, yeah.

46:37 So, yeah, they missed all that opportunity.

46:40 God, thank, I mean, in some ways, thank God they had the

46:42 videos because oh, that was the. Nail in the coffin, because

46:45 otherwise I feel like it would have been he said, he said.

46:47 And a little bit, I mean, yes, the rape kit of Peter did prove

46:51 that he had been raped. Yeah, but the, the actual, the

46:55 actual video footage. Of him being yes, right.

46:58 Yes as well. And then obviously that opened

47:01 up the door to all the many of the others boys.

47:05 So the police are now investigating a serial rape

47:10 case. Mm Hmm.

47:11 And it is incumbent upon the investigators to watch all 3.29

47:16 terabytes of that horrific, horrific, brutal sexual

47:21 violence. I feel for those police

47:23 officers. I can't even imagine what they

47:27 would have to go through to watch that.

47:29 But I also understand that that had to be done in order to bring

47:33 this person to justice. Now, the next part of what they

47:37 needed to do was try and identify all of these people.

47:40 Now, how many people were in the videos?

47:45 Because I know, yeah, 48 came forward to go to trial, but it

47:50 was like 100 and 200. And six 200.

47:54 And six. That's right, people.

47:56 Were seen to be on these videos, however they're still to this

48:02 day I'm talking to to today's date even during 2026.

48:06 Yeah, but sorry, it was more. Than this, but there was there's

48:09 still 50 I believe that have not been identified.

48:13 I know there's. A story that one of the

48:15 investigators talks about that she was working at like the

48:20 Manchester Police station on this particular day and she'd

48:23 been investigating this crime and a man.

48:27 So the police actually used the media to get this story out and

48:31 say, look, have you seen this man?

48:33 Have you had an experience with him?

48:35 If you have, you need to contact your local police station and

48:39 come forward. You know, you will be you'll be

48:42 kept. You know, your information will

48:44 be kept private. You'll be anonymous if you wish

48:46 to be. Yeah.

48:47 And this particular female police detective, she said she

48:51 was standing in in the like, reception area of Manchester

48:56 Police station, and this man walked in and she said as soon

48:58 as I saw him, like I saw you in a video, I know why you're here.

49:03 Isn't that horrific? It's awful.

49:05 And that's. That's exactly why he was there.

49:07 He saw Sanaga's photo on the news and was like, I've seen

49:11 this guy. I'm pretty sure I've been in his

49:13 house because a lot of The thing is.

49:16 So what we do know is that he was drugging these men with GHB.

49:20 Now, GHB is colourless, odourless.

49:24 It has a slightly a slightly salty taste, which is generally

49:30 masked by alcohol or any other flavour drinks.

49:32 So in water, you can kind of tell that it's a bit salty.

49:35 Yeah, but he was drugging people with GHB.

49:41 Yeah. What GHB?

49:42 So GHB is a very common date rape drug.

49:46 It's also taken recreationally at obviously at lower doses.

49:49 And so it is it, it incites euphoria in the person who's

49:54 taken it if they take it at a sort of a party drug sort of

49:58 dose. It also heightens sexual

50:01 pleasure and sexual desire. Now, Sanaga was giving his

50:08 victims so much of it that it actually had a an A It would

50:14 black, they would completely black out.

50:16 And then they don't remember anything that happened if it's

50:19 given in the right dose. Yeah.

50:20 So. What he did to Peter is

50:23 literally his MO. He would.

50:25 He was skilled at this, which is awful.

50:27 I hate using that word for it to like, compliment him.

50:29 In some it's no compliment, yeah, compliment.

50:31 No, he was incredibly skilled at going down from his apartment,

50:35 which was literally right above all these nightclubs.

50:37 He was very close by and he would go down and he would, he

50:41 wasn't going down there to go to the nightclubs.

50:43 He was going down there to find a victim.

50:45 He would literally scout for someone who was either lost from

50:51 their friends, had lost their phone, had lost their wallet,

50:54 you know, needed to charge their phone, had lost their friends,

50:57 you know, that sort of stuff was like literally his gold.

51:01 And he would then talk to these people.

51:04 It convinced them to come to his apartment, whether to charge

51:06 their phone up or wait for their friends or have a drink, have a.

51:09 Drink offered them like you know have.

51:10 A cup of. Tea sober up at my place.

51:13 Yeah, all these. Sorts of things.

51:14 And he would get there and then would give them alcohol or, you

51:17 know, he had this like, full cocktail, like bar sort of table

51:21 set up. Yeah, so I mean, when you see it

51:23 like like it is, I can understand someone going, you

51:25 know, he's just randomly pouring a drink.

51:27 You wouldn't even think that there's a how would he be able

51:29 to drug you from. There's multiple choices of ones

51:32 when you're. I'm going to say, oh, I'm going

51:33 to take the vodka at the back there.

51:34 You know, totally think too much of it.

51:38 No. So yeah, he'd pour these drinks

51:39 for them and they'd be laced with GHB.

51:41 Yeah, to this point where, yeah. Then his victim would pass out

51:46 and he would rape them, and 99% of the time these people would

51:51 then wake up the following morning having absolutely no

51:54 idea that they had been raped now.

51:57 This is he would often rape them more than once as well.

52:00 So there's a lot of most of them were raped more than once.

52:04 It was some of. Them were up to 14 hours that

52:06 they were kept and he would redrug them over that time.

52:09 Yeah, to continue then being able to rape them.

52:12 Yeah. There was one particular guy I

52:14 know who you're gonna talk about.

52:16 He tweeted a photo of him with his arm around Sanaga the

52:22 following day after his night out say, and he literally quote

52:26 captioned it with let me just find the actual code here.

52:29 Oh my God, I was lucky this guy took me in.

52:32 Oh my God. Because that's a lot of them had

52:36 that that sense afterwards in that they look, fuck, I must

52:39 have been way drunker than I thought because.

52:41 And thank God I came across this guy who's let me crash here

52:44 because yeah, how would I have gotten home in my state?

52:47 Oh my God, Like what a. Lovely.

52:48 What a lovely guy. Isn't he just saved?

52:50 Me. Couch or whatever on the floral

52:52 you know and I'm and I've woken up this next morning and he's

52:54 like can you go have a cup of tea now like you know and got me

52:57 on my merry way yeah meanwhile he that person has absolutely no

53:01 idea this guy literally like posted up that tweeted tweeted

53:04 that photo out and then this comes out on the news and he had

53:07 to comprehend holy shit this guy who I have then the next morning

53:12 said thank you to yeah publicly, even over Twitter yeah actually

53:18 fucking raped him yeah which is just I can't even there were.

53:24 Also stories of men who woke up the next morning.

53:27 There was a particular victim who had Crohn's disease, and the

53:34 perpetration of the rape for him caused significant damage in the

53:39 area, which was exacerbated by the fact that he had Crohn's.

53:45 And he ended up going to the hospital, but he was so ashamed

53:51 and he didn't really know what happened.

53:54 And so he kind of got treated for the injury.

53:58 And that was it until all of this kind of started coming out

54:01 and he's like, oh, wait, no, this is actually like, really,

54:05 this happened to more people. And he was one of the people who

54:08 formed part of the lawsuit that that came.

54:12 So I just, I, you can't even imagine.

54:16 So we're saying we're talking about 206 individuals, but we

54:19 are talking about countless numbers of rapes.

54:21 Like if you're saying some of them are raped, you know, 456

54:24 times over those hours. The other thing is that I'm.

54:27 Saying is those 206 people within the period, time period

54:31 of 2015 and 2017. Now we just spoke about the fact

54:36 that he was at Manchester University there and living in

54:39 that same area even from 2007. Yeah.

54:42 When did this actually start? We don't know, no.

54:46 And then? There's also, like I've seen

54:48 insinuations as well, like, did this start in Indonesia?

54:53 Yeah, actually. That's right, potentially a

54:55 start of this like there's coming out from other stories of

54:58 people that have come together. I have seen as early as 2005

55:01 could be his first victim so advice so this.

55:03 Was when he was at the University of Indonesia.

55:05 But The thing is, we were talking about before how

55:09 homosexuality is quite taboo still in Indonesia.

55:15 Rape of a man as well. You know, that you just, are you

55:19 gonna get anyone to actually come forward and admit and admit

55:22 to the fact that they were a victim?

55:24 I think it's not really the UK. In Manchester for straight men,

55:27 I mean this thing, 'cause we should say he didn't, he wasn't

55:29 specifically just going for straight men, but he did sort of

55:33 target a little bit more to straight men.

55:35 Well, I think that targeted. Whoever he could get, actually,

55:38 whoever he could get, but he. Was he certainly felt more

55:40 accomplished if it was if they were a straight man, so he.

55:45 He looked at it like a bit of a sport to turn a heterosexual

55:49 man. I mean, I don't know how raping

55:51 a man would make him turn gay. It doesn't, No.

55:55 So OK, you fucking idiot. But he was something that he was

56:00 boastful about. Yeah.

56:02 You know, I mean at the. End of that.

56:03 Again, we should just say all of this.

56:04 What he did in terms of these rapes is not about being gay or

56:07 straight. It's about control.

56:08 Control 1. 100% about control, Absolutely so.

56:12 The fact that he was targeting in some way straight man, or,

56:15 you know, that was there was more straight men potentially

56:18 attacked than than than gay men. For him, it was actually just

56:22 about the fucking control of the situation.

56:24 And entirely, yeah, I get, OK, we'll get into it.

56:28 The videos that he took were absolutely horrendous.

56:32 So what he would do is he would actually so these men would pass

56:35 out and he would set up two cameras, which were his two

56:39 phones, Yeah. So he would have one.

56:40 Phone placed to the side that he would get like I guess the wide

56:44 angle, you would call, you know, and get the full shot of

56:46 everything. He's so cinematic.

56:49 And then the other phone he would have as he held it so he

56:52 would get more close-ups like a first person.

56:55 View of it well So what he would.

56:57 Do is like he would. What he really wanted was the

56:59 close up of the actual penetration.

57:03 He would also film. This is so disgusting, so gross.

57:06 So. Yeah, but he would then.

57:07 Film his semen resting in the man's anus so he would get

57:13 really close up for any of that sort of thing.

57:16 What that what he actually filmed them for.

57:18 The potential for the the use by the police that they found as

57:22 great evidence was the fact that these men were so drugged that

57:27 they would snore so very clearly unconscious participating in

57:32 this and we're not consenting. They were absolutely unconscious

57:37 to the extent of being so asleep and having this done to them

57:41 that they didn't wake up that he but well, he also filmed them

57:45 vomiting and he would just leave them in that vomit and continue.

57:49 He would not stop. He would also, he would get so

57:54 into this that he would could cause bleeding and again, he

57:59 would wipe away and continue. So in all of this, though, he

58:04 there was one one video that the police found where he put on a

58:07 condom. There was no regard in any of

58:11 this for his own health and safety in that scenario or the

58:14 victims. I mean, there could have been an

58:17 absolute horrific number of people affected here by HIV or

58:23 other St. DS and things.

58:24 That's just, I mean, I think that is awful.

58:29 Those poor men. It is awful.

58:31 Especially for the ones who don't know.

58:32 So I did read somewhere that there was possible, I think it

58:38 was chlamydia that was kind of detected in some of these

58:44 victims, which is easily treated like it's just an antibiotic.

58:48 So it wasn't anything catastrophic, but if you don't

58:50 know, you've got it, you know, and then not only passing it on

58:55 to someone. Else that's that's what I'm

58:56 saying just just I mean not their fault, not at all, no way

59:00 not don't want a victim blank, but how did?

59:02 How did he not contract something more sinister and more

59:06 serious? That's just by absolute

59:08 absolute. Luck in that sense.

59:09 I mean, there was absolutely no regard for anyone in this.

59:12 And I mean, God, no, he had no ability to do that in his

59:15 psychopathic brain. No, but it just blows my mind.

59:19 Yeah. The possibilities of all those

59:21 sorts of things too, that could have come of this.

59:23 Yeah, absolutely horrific. I wonder what made.

59:26 Him use the condom on that one victim.

59:28 I know. I'd love to know what the

59:29 motivation was behind that. Yeah.

59:31 But did he know something? But I don't know how he would

59:33 because these victims were not known to him ever.

59:35 No, they were just random. So, yeah, that that was

59:39 fascinating to me that there was one, only one instance in, you

59:42 know, thousands of rapes really, if you're looking at how many

59:45 times he perpetrated them across, across the six, 206

59:49 victims that we know of. Yeah.

59:51 All right. So obviously he gets arrested

59:56 and there's, you know, very conclusive evidence against.

1:00:00 Him. Have you seen the interview

1:00:01 tapes with the police? I mean, I find his demeanour

1:00:04 incredibly fascinating. He's he's.

1:00:06 It's like he's so nonchalant. Well.

1:00:09 And he cries like he's so at one stage he's, he's like, because

1:00:13 what he claims, he says this is not true any of this and that

1:00:17 all they're all lying. And that the videos, all those

1:00:21 men agreed to participate in a game with him where they would

1:00:25 pretend to be asleep, which is where it's important that you,

1:00:28 we know there's videos of men snoring.

1:00:30 Mm hmm. That clearly these people were

1:00:32 not pretending to be asleep. Like it's so the the way their

1:00:35 bodies move in these videos, et cetera, they move well this the

1:00:38 way he manoeuvres them, yes. And the way their bodies like

1:00:41 positioned, they're dead weight. They are dead weight.

1:00:45 They're not someone moving. Themselves, you can tell they

1:00:47 are. So they are actually genuinely

1:00:49 passed out unconscious. They're not pretending to be

1:00:52 asleep. But that's what he claims is

1:00:55 that they're all, it's a sexual game he likes to play.

1:00:57 And these men agreed to participate in it.

1:01:00 But and they're like, and the police officers, he's like

1:01:02 crying going, you know, like when they were pretending and

1:01:05 the police officer says, you know, like, why are you crying?

1:01:08 Like, what's why? Why are you so upset about that?

1:01:10 And he's like, because you won't believe me.

1:01:15 Oh, it's just, it's actually sickening.

1:01:17 Like he's so. Plays this make mild his voice

1:01:21 is very quiet when he talks that creeped.

1:01:24 Me out creeped me the fuck out because you're like, I know

1:01:27 actually how violent you are and I know the horrific things that

1:01:30 you've done. That really creeped me out.

1:01:33 Gave me the absolute like yuck yuck yuck yuck yuck.

1:01:39 So. He goes to trial now this

1:01:43 absolute fuck wit piece of shit of a human being subjected his

1:01:48 victim to not one but four different trials.

1:01:53 He did not plead guilty despite the fact that there was

1:01:57 irrefutable evidence against him and he made his victims go

1:02:03 through the extra trauma so he's re traumatized them.

1:02:08 To go. Through the trials and they they

1:02:11 believe. He did that purposefully.

1:02:14 Oh yeah, absolutely. I have no.

1:02:16 Doubt, no doubt in my mind took. Pleasure in it.

1:02:19 Yep. Like they said, he sat in that

1:02:21 court with like a smirk on his face the entire time.

1:02:24 He wanted his victims to have to sit through watching those

1:02:29 videos. He wanted to see those videos

1:02:31 again, and he wanted others to see the videos he actually like.

1:02:38 As you say it was irrefutable, the evidence, like I'm sure his

1:02:40 lawyers said to him, you plead guilty, you will get you know,

1:02:44 potentially A lesser one, but it's not going to be good.

1:02:45 Like you're just, you're done here mate because the evidence

1:02:49 of the videos was so damning but he refused.

1:02:53 To. Do that you know what I think

1:02:54 is? Horrific as well.

1:02:55 The fact that this went to four trials, which we'll get to in a

1:02:58 second, meant that four different juries had to watch

1:03:01 all three terabytes worth of videos.

1:03:05 You know, that's what is it 12 people and a jury, that's 48

1:03:09 people who they will never, you would never get over seeing

1:03:12 that. You would never, ever get over

1:03:14 it. No, that's 48 more victims in my

1:03:17 in my mind and. That's lonely sack of shit

1:03:21 actually will now get off of that bit of information.

1:03:26 Yep, for the rest of his life. Yep, because he it's again

1:03:28 another. Control.

1:03:29 Yep, Yep, I. That that shits me.

1:03:32 And like, there's no getting around that.

1:03:34 As in, and he knows that like legally he's entitled to have

1:03:36 that trial as no matter how much a prosecution would sit there

1:03:39 and say, judge, look at him like, we can't do this.

1:03:43 This is him getting, you know, winning.

1:03:46 There's no legal way of getting out of that.

1:03:48 He has to have a fair trial. Yeah.

1:03:51 Which is so. Unfair.

1:03:52 It's so unfair. It's so unfair.

1:03:55 Oh God. And this is like we.

1:03:57 Talk about this a lot, but the, you know, the legal system isn't

1:04:04 great for victims ever. It's really, and we, we've

1:04:08 talked about it as well. We understand it needs to be a

1:04:10 robust process because we don't want innocent people going to

1:04:13 jail. But in situations like this, I

1:04:16 don't know, there has to be a way that we can compel someone

1:04:18 to plead guilty when there's, yeah, evidence like this,

1:04:21 because there's gotta be a judge.

1:04:22 You can just sit there and go. You know what this is?

1:04:25 We're not going to. Trial.

1:04:26 Trial, Yeah. No, no you don't.

1:04:28 You lose that, right? Yeah.

1:04:30 Yep. When?

1:04:30 This is. How like it's, it's that

1:04:32 conclusive. It's like there's video evidence

1:04:35 that we found in your possession.

1:04:37 You're in the video, yes. You're performing.

1:04:40 These acts, it's very clear. I just don't feel like that

1:04:43 should be that No one should be subjected to that as a victim.

1:04:46 Like never. Oh my God, The other thing in.

1:04:47 Terms of evidence that we actually haven't spoken about

1:04:49 yet is the trophies that he kept.

1:04:51 Oh, yeah. So he kept things like people's

1:04:54 phones, watches, ID cards, licenses from their wallets.

1:04:58 Yeah. He also would.

1:05:00 So he'd look in their wallets while they were unconscious,

1:05:03 figure out what their given name and surname was.

1:05:05 He would then friend them on social media.

1:05:07 He would download photos of them to keep as a trophy, screenshot,

1:05:11 screen shot things. They're like profile and their

1:05:14 friends and yeah, just, you know, absolutely horrific

1:05:18 things. So again, that is more like

1:05:20 there was a draw in his bedroom that was just full of other

1:05:24 people's mobile phones and other trophies and ID cards and I'm

1:05:27 like, what the actual foxy again?

1:05:30 Yeah, you know, that's massive. Yeah, yeah.

1:05:32 It's. Absolutely.

1:05:33 Just horrific. It's just horrible.

1:05:35 It's another nail in the coffin, it really.

1:05:37 Is like, I just, oh, God, I don't know, They're still

1:05:42 sifting through all this information to this day.

1:05:45 There's still, you know, items like those belt buckles, Like it

1:05:49 came down to like little things like that as well that.

1:05:51 I mean, how do you identify? Yeah.

1:05:52 The only way you can identify that is someone going, oh, my

1:05:54 God, yeah, I did wear that. Like, it's not like you're gonna

1:05:57 look at that and go, oh, that's Joe blogs.

1:05:59 Like, we can go, go to his house.

1:06:00 And because unfortunately, these police have had to approach

1:06:04 people from identifying them in these videos and, and from IDs

1:06:08 and things in drawers, they've had to go to these people and

1:06:12 say to them, can you come down and have a chat with a

1:06:14 counsellor first? Like they're not going to say it

1:06:17 is the police coming knocking on the door.

1:06:19 They, these men had to be called in, obviously to a counsellor to

1:06:23 be have this news broken to them carefully and that they are a

1:06:28 victim of this and this occurred to them.

1:06:30 They have no knowledge of which. I mean, I find this really like

1:06:34 just, again, psychologically for that individual, would you

1:06:36 rather go your entire life not knowing it ever happened to you

1:06:39 or would you want to know and work through it?

1:06:41 No. I know.

1:06:43 So I mean, legally they've had to like of course, fine.

1:06:46 These people and do this. And let them know.

1:06:48 But there are men who have been suicidal over this, which is

1:06:52 just horrendous that these men have been put through.

1:06:54 I mean the. Untold amount of trauma that

1:06:59 that would do to a person. I can understand that there's

1:07:01 been, out of these 206 victims, known victims.

1:07:04 There's more for sure, yeah. But I can understand the fact

1:07:09 that there would be some who are like suicidal, have suicidal

1:07:12 ideation over this or those who need, I'm sure most of them, if

1:07:18 not all of them, will need ongoing psychological support to

1:07:21 deal with this throughout the rest of their lives.

1:07:23 Yes. It's such a violation.

1:07:25 Any rape of any person ever is an absolute violation and such a

1:07:31 horrific and traumatic thing to happen to a person.

1:07:34 And I just, I feel for these victims.

1:07:36 I feel for the ones who've come forward.

1:07:38 I feel for the ones who haven't, because the ones who've come

1:07:41 forward have had to re undergo that trauma in terms of giving

1:07:45 evidence at his trials and watching the videos of

1:07:48 themselves, you know, all of that sort of stuff.

1:07:50 And then the ones who haven't come forward, what must they be

1:07:53 living with God, you know, so, so many of them would know.

1:07:58 I'm sure that. There is men out there,

1:07:59 literally who were like, I think maybe that happened to me, that

1:08:03 guy. But they're so like, as in like

1:08:06 thinking themselves like, I'd rather not know or do I wanna

1:08:09 know and not coming forward like because they're ashamed of that

1:08:13 occurring to them. Yeah.

1:08:14 Which I that's what I want out of this.

1:08:17 I want them to feel that this is not your fault.

1:08:20 No, you can come forward and you can move past this, but at the

1:08:24 same time get justice for yourself like over it.

1:08:27 No one should feel that they can't come forward and say that

1:08:30 happened to me and feel a lesser of a person for that.

1:08:35 You should feel empowered, if anything, of being able to stand

1:08:39 up and say that fucking asshole did that to me and I'm not gonna

1:08:44 stand for it. Yeah, yeah.

1:08:46 The four trials, so they started in 2018 and concluded in 2019,

1:08:53 each related to different victims.

1:08:56 He was found guilty in all of those trials, which of course he

1:09:00 was. I mean, it's, as we said, it's

1:09:02 irrefutable. Absolutely.

1:09:03 He went into a sentencing hearing on the 6th of January in

1:09:07 2020. And the justice, whose name was

1:09:10 Suzanne Goddard QC, she sentenced him to life

1:09:14 imprisonment with a minimum term of 30 years initially.

1:09:17 Yeah. She said at the time as well

1:09:20 that report, some reporting restrictions could be lifted.

1:09:22 So this is really when it all started to come out in the

1:09:25 media. Yeah.

1:09:26 And we knew a little bit more about it, but it was still very

1:09:29 scarce. And it's really only been over

1:09:31 the last few years that more and more has come out about this

1:09:34 case and about especially with relation to the victims, even

1:09:37 though they are still anonymized.

1:09:40 Yeah. So it was around this time that

1:09:42 you know, the public has learnt of the the nature and the

1:09:47 absolute, you know, the horrendousness of of what he did

1:09:52 now in 2025, was it they went to re sentence him?

1:10:00 Was it that? Late.

1:10:01 I thought it was earlier than that.

1:10:02 Maybe it was earlier. Than that yeah it was within the

1:10:06 last few years anyway they've gone to re sentence him because

1:10:10 it's it was found that he and there were two other

1:10:13 perpetrators of heinous sexual crimes who the prosecution said

1:10:20 for all three of these particular men that their

1:10:23 sentences were grossly inadequate.

1:10:24 Yeah. And so they actually went to be

1:10:27 resentenced and thankfully Sanaga did receive a further.

1:10:32 Was it further for the 10 years, 10 years, was it been increased

1:10:34 to to 40 years? Non.

1:10:37 Parole, he will hopefully never get out.

1:10:38 So what that means is that I think by the time he's 77 or

1:10:42 something like that, that he will be eligible for parole.

1:10:46 Yeah. I just hope that never happens.

1:10:48 It's in 2060 or something. My bigger.

1:10:50 Concern is something that's happened in the meantime and I

1:10:53 believe this was sort of around about 2025 the Indonesian

1:10:56 government. Oh yeah, it was have on to the

1:11:00 UK government and requested like basically a transfer of

1:11:04 repatriation of yeah of inmates. So basically Senegal was beaten

1:11:10 in prison pretty heavily. And so they they stepped forward

1:11:15 and said like, well, we'd like to bring him back to Indonesia

1:11:18 and then we'll give you Auk prison inmates out of an

1:11:23 exchange for that. It hasn't occurred.

1:11:26 Now, the reason that I really, really don't want that to occur

1:11:29 is because in Indonesia, as we know from like Indonesian jails

1:11:34 in general, you can buy your own comfort, you know, like there's

1:11:38 a bit more bribery that is allowed to occur.

1:11:41 So because his family is so wealthy, there is a very strong

1:11:44 belief that Senaga could end up in a.

1:11:47 It would remain in jail, However, he would have probably

1:11:51 a private cell with, you know, a nice cushy couch, a nice comfy

1:11:54 bed, Internet access, all sorts of things that he shouldn't.

1:11:59 Yep, absolutely should not have so I I would not want him being

1:12:04 moved. I mean, I understand I'd ever

1:12:05 out of perspective of like, why should the UK government

1:12:08 taxpayers have to pay for him to be in jail because he offended?

1:12:11 Against UK citizens. Get that and.

1:12:13 I I back that, but also like, I understand that, you know, like,

1:12:15 why should we have to spend our money and some other.

1:12:17 He should go back to Indonesia and they should have to fork the

1:12:19 money out for him because he's a piece of shit.

1:12:21 Yeah. But unfortunately their system

1:12:24 is not going to give the same justice, justice quality.

1:12:28 So I just feel like, no, he needs to stay in the UK in

1:12:31 prison there for the rest of his life and not go back to

1:12:33 Indonesia. I strongly feel that.

1:12:36 I hope that that doesn't occur. It's gone quiet on it at the

1:12:39 moment and nothing else has been brought up about it, so I hope

1:12:42 that it doesn't go anywhere. Yeah, but I'm.

1:12:44 Still gonna linger over him. I think for the rest of his time

1:12:47 in jail. Agree.

1:12:47 It could be. It could occur.

1:12:49 Yeah. I think there'd be uproar if it

1:12:51 was to occur. I know that the public have

1:12:52 already spoken about it and said no, yeah, that's not to happen.

1:12:56 So I am sure that that the UK government will do all they can

1:12:59 to keep him where he is. Well, it's it's.

1:13:02 He offended in their jurisdiction.

1:13:03 So does that mean they have the the right to detain him?

1:13:10 To detain him? It's hard, I mean.

1:13:11 Actually citizenship and where does that yeah, but I mean he.

1:13:14 Offended in the UK, so he's gone against the law in that country.

1:13:17 He should be pun of. Yeah, yeah, I don't know.

1:13:20 I actually. Know how that?

1:13:21 International law stuff works. No, I'm not sure either.

1:13:23 When he was beaten in prison, he pretty much nearly died.

1:13:27 Yeah, yeah. So just don't.

1:13:28 Maybe no. No, not at all.

1:13:30 But, you know, maybe that'll happen before he can be

1:13:33 extradited. I don't.

1:13:34 Yeah, they're clearly not keeping him isolated, you know,

1:13:37 Should they? No.

1:13:38 I think he's think Jen Pop is the place you report you.

1:13:41 So yeah, I found some reactions of his family about this.

1:13:46 So this was some of this has been reported in Indonesian

1:13:49 newspapers. Others have been reported in,

1:13:52 like, through Meteor outlets in the UK because so his mom is

1:13:57 definitely more outspoken than his dad in terms of, like, she's

1:14:00 given little quips and tidbits. And she did do a very brief

1:14:04 interview with a journalist from the BBC, but it wasn't like a

1:14:08 formal interview. I think it must have been out

1:14:09 the front of court or something. But so Norma Watty, his mom,

1:14:14 said in this interview that the family does not believe in

1:14:17 homosexuality and they were unaware that he was gay.

1:14:20 She referred to him as her baby and she insists that he is

1:14:24 absolutely incapable of this cruelty.

1:14:27 Now I say that, right? But she only ever attended his

1:14:31 first trial. She didn't attend the subsequent

1:14:34 3 trials. Didn't like watching what?

1:14:36 Your son was doing 100%. Funny that.

1:14:40 His father. After the final, sorry after the

1:14:43 sentencing, the only quote I could find from his dad, like a

1:14:48 direct quote from his dad, was we accept the verdict.

1:14:52 His punishment fits his crimes. I don't want to discuss this

1:14:55 case any further. Fair, fair.

1:14:59 Good. Let's leave it at that.

1:15:01 Yeah. Now the other thing that we

1:15:03 didn't talk about was want to repeat though.

1:15:04 Him being gay is still nothing to do with these crimes.

1:15:07 No, not at all. I just want to make sure we

1:15:09 really clearly state that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:15:11 That it's the fact that his family, his mother, has focused

1:15:14 on that aspect of him being, you know, part of this is just like,

1:15:18 you've actually missed the point.

1:15:19 It's totally irrelevant. Irrelevant.

1:15:23 One of the things in his defence we talked about like the fact

1:15:27 that he said that he hadn't, that you know, that these men

1:15:30 were willing participants and that was role play and all of

1:15:32 that. They also had another defense.

1:15:35 So. So during the trial, it came out

1:15:39 that Sanaga had said to his mum that his victims were actually

1:15:44 the ones who initiated the sex, but then accused him of rape to

1:15:47 hide their own shame at being with a lady boy.

1:15:52 And that was what she held on to and ran with.

1:16:00 No, no. I mean, OK, he wasn't, but he.

1:16:03 Wasn't a lady boy no like. So you see photos and everything

1:16:07 but *** and you look at him and go, OK, if he was who he's

1:16:11 trying to make out, he is right kind of thing in that he's a

1:16:14 openly gay man who is, you know, mild, meek, gentle, helpful, all

1:16:20 those those that they are the qualities that he's trying to

1:16:23 portray that he is right. If that was plain and simply the

1:16:26 case, added to that, he was actually a very quite good

1:16:30 looking man, right? You cannot tell me that if he

1:16:34 was after like just meeting gay men and meeting, you know,

1:16:37 having sex lots of sexual partners.

1:16:39 He could have had many, many sexual partners consensually.

1:16:44 I can oh, but this absolutely guarantee that if he was who he

1:16:48 wanted, he wants to say he is, he would have had plenty of

1:16:50 consensual partners. But that's the thing.

1:16:52 As you were saying before, that's not what he wanted.

1:16:54 No, that's not who he. Was it's not what he wanted.

1:16:57 He wanted non consensual partners.

1:16:59 He wanted control. I mean the fact that.

1:17:01 He was taking photos of the outcome of his rapes.

1:17:05 What I'm saying is like those really close up photos of him

1:17:09 post rape. Yeah, and the victims post rape.

1:17:13 I think that says it all to me. Absolutely.

1:17:16 It's the most heinous and disgusting of things to do, but

1:17:22 yet that's what you choose to keep as your trophy.

1:17:25 Like you liked that? You liked seeing that you had

1:17:28 that control. Over.

1:17:30 That power over these men who are just completely out of it.

1:17:35 Oh. That's it.

1:17:38 Well, I mean, it's the only way he could have had power over

1:17:40 these men was by drugging them. Yeah, you know, like, and I

1:17:42 think he wanted to think that he could have that power over them

1:17:46 at any point. Like, and it's just he's just

1:17:48 awful. Yeah.

1:17:49 The most lowest of humans. I don't even think he's human,

1:17:52 to be honest. I mean, psychologically, I mean,

1:17:54 he's definitely a psychopath. It was it was labeled as sort of

1:17:59 actually extreme narcissist. He had has complete not a lack

1:18:03 of empathy and and just obsession with control and

1:18:06 power. So as we talked about SO and I

1:18:09 think he was actually physically or I think he was incapable

1:18:13 entirely of having a consensual relationship.

1:18:17 Yeah, I. Just.

1:18:20 It's just gross. There was I where did I hear

1:18:25 that? It was in a podcast I listened

1:18:27 to. So I and I haven't, I didn't

1:18:29 actually, I wasn't able to validate this, so take it with a

1:18:32 grain of salt, but I believe he did have a relationship with a

1:18:36 man, a consensual relationship with a man in university when he

1:18:40 was in Indonesia for a year or something, but it fizzled out.

1:18:47 Like there was no he wouldn't have given him what?

1:18:49 He didn't. Exactly, he didn't.

1:18:51 Get out of it what he wanted. I'd be interested to.

1:18:53 Know who that man was and how I don't.

1:18:56 I'd love to know. I reckon you'd find out that

1:18:59 that man, like now, reflecting on it, sees that relationship is

1:19:02 abusive in some way. Yeah, there would have been some

1:19:05 element of abuse to that relationship, I can guarantee

1:19:07 it. Because he's just not capable of

1:19:10 what, love or, you know, any of those sorts of emotions.

1:19:13 So no, he's just dead. Inside, yeah, yeah.

1:19:15 There's nothing. There's nothing there.

1:19:18 No, there's no human in there. No.

1:19:20 Oh. No.

1:19:21 Those I just, I really feel for the victims, as we always do,

1:19:25 but this is just I feel for those.

1:19:27 Victims who don't even know their victims still too, in that

1:19:29 sense of like, it's just the thought of like, I'm sure

1:19:33 there's men, you know, in the UK who are going, oh, I don't know

1:19:38 that I'm a victim. Could I been like genuinely to

1:19:42 even have that kind of just. Curiousness about it I'm not.

1:19:47 Knowing, yeah, I live in the area, I don't remember going to

1:19:50 his house, but then maybe I wouldn't remember like that's

1:19:53 that's what he's done to just thousands and thousands of

1:19:56 people and of like, yeah the. Other thing that now this is,

1:20:01 again, this is a really big stretch, but around the same

1:20:05 time that all of this was being perpetrated in Manchester, there

1:20:09 was a Manchester. Serial killer, right?

1:20:13 So they. Don't know.

1:20:14 There's, there's not a lot proven with this.

1:20:19 So they don't know who this person is.

1:20:21 They don't even know if it's one person or if it's multiple

1:20:23 people. They've stopped.

1:20:26 But The thing is a lot of bodies, when I say a lot, a few

1:20:29 bodies were turning up in the Manchester River.

1:20:33 Now, they were often students because it's a student town, you

1:20:40 know, that's, I guess that's neither here nor there.

1:20:43 In a lot of the cases, it was unable to be determined how

1:20:46 these people died, right? So the inference there is that

1:20:51 could it have been like a GHB overdose?

1:20:54 Because some of these bodies weren't found for weeks,

1:20:57 potentially. And so by the time it came to

1:21:00 being able to do any toxicology analysis on them, the GHB would

1:21:03 be gone, right? And what?

1:21:06 And were I dare say I mean. The videos that they had though,

1:21:09 like those I, I, I would hope, I would hope that the police have

1:21:13 cross checked and gone that. But what I'm saying is found

1:21:16 dead isn't in these videos. You know what I mean?

1:21:18 Like I I get that. Yeah, but I also think like how

1:21:23 how lucky was he to have drugged hundreds of men?

1:21:28 Yep. And not killed any of them, not

1:21:30 overdosed any of them. Well, because I've just been.

1:21:32 Repeatedly giving them drugs to keep them and they're all.

1:21:35 Different body weights and sizes and shapes and, Yep, different

1:21:39 metabolisms. I just, I it's, it's a question

1:21:42 I have like definitely. How did no one die?

1:21:45 Yeah. How or did they, or did they?

1:21:47 Yeah. You know, there's a definite

1:21:48 question mark about that. I'd like to know.

1:21:50 Timelines of like so a lot. Of these were actually before, I

1:21:57 can't, I haven't written it down the exact thing, but I know a

1:21:59 lot of them were sort of before that 2015 time frame, so. 2015

1:22:04 and 2017 Had he honed his craft yet?

1:22:06 That I, I don't know, but I think there still were a few

1:22:09 victims in there. So what the police thought at

1:22:11 the time was that there was some kind of serial killer or group

1:22:14 of killers because these people were being found in a similar

1:22:18 manner, found dumped in this river.

1:22:20 Yeah. And so they still to this day

1:22:22 don't know whether there was a serial killer, whether these

1:22:25 people are, you know, committed suicide or drown themselves or

1:22:30 something had happened. Like they don't actually know.

1:22:32 There wasn't like, an established MO.

1:22:34 OK I need to deep. Dive this more.

1:22:37 I'm like come. Across that as I was.

1:22:39 Researching. Yeah.

1:22:39 So I don't. I don't know, I didn't actually

1:22:41 look into it in any like great depth.

1:22:43 I just know that I'm busy tonight.

1:22:46 There was just a bit of a suggestion that like, how did no

1:22:49 one die? And if someone did die, what did

1:22:51 he do with them? But also, I see what you're

1:22:53 saying with the fact that there's no video evidence, but

1:22:56 then there are people who are in those videos who have yet to be

1:23:00 identified 100%. So I only say I would hope that

1:23:03 that's what they've crossed. Checked those?

1:23:05 Yeah, because I mean. They definitely are.

1:23:08 I guess there's in some of the videos, it's harder to see a

1:23:10 face and then to try and get a face and then match that with,

1:23:13 you know, an ID of some sort. I mean, it's an incredibly

1:23:16 challenging task for the the investigators to do.

1:23:20 Absolutely. But I would hope that they'd be

1:23:21 like, OK, here's an image of all these people who died that at

1:23:24 some point the cops have gone right.

1:23:26 Well, let's out of the 50 we've got left.

1:23:27 Let's sit and go. Is there any element that we

1:23:29 think maybe this is the person? Surely that's been done.

1:23:32 I mean, there's, I assume so. Yeah, surely.

1:23:35 Sure. If not, fucking how we'll get on

1:23:36 it I'm sure. I'm sure they have, yeah, but.

1:23:39 Because I have to. Say, like the police work in

1:23:42 this, aside from them not believing Peter at the start,

1:23:47 the police work in this was really good.

1:23:49 They were on top of everything. They have really thoroughly

1:23:51 investigated it. They have done their absolute

1:23:54 best in supporting the victims. You know, they've done, the

1:23:56 police have really done all the rights they did, they put.

1:23:59 All the counselling in place that needed to be like that.

1:24:01 To this day, like they're still continuing to do that.

1:24:03 There's so much that they have done absolutely, really right.

1:24:06 I mean, got it wrong at the, you know, at the initial point

1:24:09 there. But.

1:24:10 But they got back on track, thank God.

1:24:12 Yeah. But yeah, that's really got me

1:24:14 now I want to go back and have a look at that.

1:24:16 Interesting that it stopped. Yeah, I would have thought that

1:24:18 it would have exceed they because I mean more like

1:24:21 escalation and behaviour. You would think you'd see more

1:24:24 of the death. To me, this wouldn't be an

1:24:25 escalation. This would have been an

1:24:27 accidental thing. Because I think for him, the

1:24:28 control was that these men were then walking around out there,

1:24:32 he knew that he'd raped them and they didn't know.

1:24:35 So was it just accidental overdoses?

1:24:37 And he's like, oh fuck it, what am I going to do with his body?

1:24:38 I better but I feel like the psychopath.

1:24:40 In him then would be more like, well I got away with the murder,

1:24:42 I'll just keep murdering them like I've had them wandering

1:24:45 around and potentially then remembering something.

1:24:48 Because I think he liked the fact that they were then walking

1:24:50 around. Maybe he was going to.

1:24:52 Get caught too. Yeah, true.

1:24:54 I don't know, because I can't get in the mind of a fucking

1:24:56 psychopath. Yeah.

1:24:58 Weird. Yeah, Yeah.

1:25:02 Oh, I'm so deep. Diving though, don't know.

1:25:04 Right. OK.

1:25:06 Anyway, thanks for joining us, everyone.

1:25:10 This one was a a really, you know, it was a big one.

1:25:12 But as we said at the start of this episode, important story to

1:25:15 tell. Absolutely.

1:25:17 You know, as a victim of rape, I really hope that these men are,

1:25:23 you know, not ashamed. They shouldn't be.

1:25:25 They've got nothing to be ashamed of.

1:25:27 But I can also understand why they why they would be.

1:25:30 Yeah. We stand with them, we are with

1:25:34 them. We are so sorry that it happened

1:25:36 to them and no one, no one deserves to have that happen to

1:25:41 them. So yeah, made this piece.

1:25:44 Of shit rot in jail in the UK for the rest of his life.

1:25:48 Well said. Maybe with beating.

1:25:50 Here and there, yeah. Yeah.

1:25:54 All good. All right, well, join us over at

1:25:56 Patreon or over on the socials. We'll see you next week.

1:25:58 Stay curious, crime besties. Bye.