Episode 72 - The Delphi Murders

0:14 Welcome back to Crime Besties to the last episode of 2025. Feels like we should be at the end now, yeah? What a year. What a year. It's been amazing for two crime besties, that is for damn sure. We have had a year. Yeah, it's been great. Celebrate the good. Absolutely and we really appreciate everyone's support. It's just it is actually so overwhelming. It is. I'm gonna start today then by doing our shout outs while. We're talking. We've had a couple of new patrons this week. We've got Eve Crawshaw and Stephanie Golding.

0:44 We've also had some coffees bought for us by Naomi Peacock, who said that we've ruined all other podcasts for her. Ruined them I love. And she's like, she goes. I just love a bit of casual crime on a Tuesday. Cash crime. I love. Yeah. And Kate Wright, who said she used to go to bed listening to Hedley Thomas, now she goes to bed listening to our dulcet tones and I'm like, I'm pretty sure Hedley's weight got a way more soothing voice. So I feel like we might stutter you awake when we laugh or something.

1:14 So sorry, Kate, but thank you very much for your support. Like we might be keeping you awake. Rather than sending this, Yeah, we're probably better. Better for that, Yeah. If you need to stay awake for any reason, Chuck Chuck us in your. Ear writing down the. That's how I feel when I listen to me. Oh, terrible. Anyway, so you've had a bit of a week, You've had a really busy week and we were just saying it is like a limp to the fine. I feel like I'm limping even doesn't cut it. I think I'm in the wheelchair.

1:45 Drag one arm by arm like commando crawling out. Of it we will make this. We will make it. Yeah. But you know what I do have for the people just to keep it on a light note though I do have a Kyle story for everyone and we can share that for the end of the year. I think people will love that. Go. I did tell you about this one. So everyone just Kyle, Alex a lot. All for those who don't know. Well, I shouldn't say Al. It's my son's. He can he should take responsibility for that. But he'll all be very proud of me.

2:13 So we're cleaning the tank the other week and it's always a an it's it's just it's a lot trying to do this bloody tank, but cock has grown like I can't believe how much he's grown. So trying to get him out of the tank to clean it is quite the thing. So an ordeal. It's an ordeal. But so well, Brody was he was struggling to get him out and I've and he just wasn't grabbing him enough. He was being a bit too gentle about it. And I'm like, I'll get him with the net and then you like put your hand over him in the net, you know, and we'll transfer him across.

2:41 And so we got him to the top of the tank. And as Brody's like putting his hand on him, he leapt, took a leap of faith off the tank, down the back of the cabinet that hits the tank's on and like then scurried behind the tank of the the cabinetry. Oh my God. Oh, I was screaming. Brody was crying. You were screaming for different reasons. Very different reasons, but Oh my God. And I'm like, I could just see his tail at the edge of the cabinet, like, and I'm like, Oh my God. So then I'm like, I need to like pull the cabinet out a bit more to be able to get in there.

3:18 Like because I'm realising that I'm gonna have to touch. This. Oh my God. So I'm like it was full chaos. Like I cannot explain how chaotic. Right, I feel like I've got a pretty good idea. Oh my God, yuck. Got in there though like and I picked that thing up and then quickly ran it, walked whatever it plums it in the water. We touched him with your own hands. I didn't realise that. Oh, I touched him. But the thing was, I'm like, is it dead or is it alive? Oh God, was it dead? You know, it's like we're all like kind of like waiting for him to move and he moved.

3:50 So it's like. Was he? Did it stress him out? Oh, definitely. Because I said to, I said to Brody, like, let's just give him a moment. Yeah. And he's on the bucket, calm with, with dog hair attached to him and shit. Yeah, 'cause it's on the floor behind the cabinetry where I have a dog with a lot of hair and a lot of hair that goes behind that cabinetry. Kids and I don't often hug you behind there. Oh God, it was just so bad. It was so bad. So yeah, we got him back in and we had, we had some quiet time before we then transferred him very carefully back from that bucket to his home tank.

4:23 Which was now clean, yeah, and fresh. Now this happened on a day when I was heading out that that evening to get a memorial tattoo for my dad my first ever. I had my flash of like lightning of like well this was occurring that I'm like oh fuck I'm going to have to get 2 tattoos today. You have to get a second memorial to do with Kyle. You just know Brody would expect me to same. Level. Is it same? Same level? Yeah, Dad. Yeah, Kyle. Yeah, yeah. If you're getting one for your dad, yeah, clearly you're gonna get one for good views.

4:57 So I'm like, you better live view. Do not want an axolotl tattooed on me. You'd have to get it where this like no one would. Say, Oh my God, Oh my God, that wouldn't cut it for Brody. No, that's true. It'd need to be, like, on your forehead or something.

5:16 Well, I'm glad Kyle survived. Well, Yeah, No, I am well. For the sake of your. Skin. Yeah. I'm glad Kyle survived. Yeah. So another Kyle story. I went over to your place last week or the week before, Yeah. And when I got there, Brody was like, he's like, eh, I guess what? I'll just ate his own poo.

5:37 I'm like, oh, oh, When I thought this thing couldn't be any more disgusting, it turns out tops itself. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'll just tell. You I'm like, does he do that all the time? And he's like, yeah. And touching him was like I thought it would be, Oh. Oh, slimy. Ring that again. Oh yuck yuck yuck yuck yuck yuck. Push all my shit together. I'm just. Gonna do this. Yep, now I want to know what have you got on your Christmas list? Oh, a nice new handbag. Oh. OK, do you have like an idea in mind of what you want?

6:10 Yeah, I've bought it. Oh, excellent. Yeah, I've. Yeah, I've chosen a very nice, beautiful leather handbag. Lovely. Yeah, just a small one, but it's nice. I'm very happy. Beautiful. Yes. And I'm getting a new pair of like, I guess you call them like, I guess they're kind of clog. Yeah, right. Kind of shoe. OK. That yeah, I'm really happy with them. OK, they're not Crocs, are they not Crocs? OK. No, no, no. That's why I was like cloggish, but not like that. Like, OK, nice slip on shoe. Like I guess you'd call them a door shoe.

6:40 You know, you can just look at the door in them. Yeah, that kind of stuff. Like, OK, yeah, yeah, nice outside it. Love it, love it. What about you? Well, I wanted some new earrings and I sent a little. Few more holes to fill. Yeah, that's right. I've got a lot on each side now. I sent a link to the exact thing I wanted to produce a piece. So I feel like if I'm disappointed on Christmas Day, it's either because he's ignored my link and hasn't gotten me earrings, yes, or he's gone rogue and not gotten me the ones that I wanted or rogue.

7:18 No, he's not like he's he's been, he's been. He's pretty. Yeah. Give. Me a link. I'll follow the link. Yeah, yeah. My only thing is I'm like would they still have them in stock 'cause they had a really good they were on like super special. Yeah, right. So that's. Yeah. And then it could. Go rogue. It could go rogue. That's yeah, yeah. We'll see. We'll see. He did. He did well with the jewellery he has bought me without me knowing in the past. Sound OK with? Engagement ring. Yeah. What else is He's bought me earrings before and he's done very, very.

7:48 Well, OK, that's good. If he's, if they got in that department and get what you like, yeah, you should be safe. Yeah, fingers crossed for Christmas. Earringers crossed. What a sport. Brat. I love that. But anyway, yeah. So that's exciting. Yeah. Looking forward to that. Can't wait. Yeah, it's exciting when you think there might be things you might not, might unwrap that you don't know what they are. Yeah, Nah, Nah. The other thing is under the Christmas tree I've bought for myself and wrapped and written on the card to Mum.

8:15 You're the best in the world from Oliver and Lucas.

8:20 Oh God, no. See, I hand it to them and say that like it gets delivered to the house, whatever with their name on the Oh, OK, that's a parcel for you guys to sort out. Yeah. Oh, that's. Cute. Oh, it always gets wrapped so beautifully. I'm sure it. Does I wouldn't let my kids wrap a present. Not for someone else, I wouldn't, but it's kind of lovely when they do it for me. But I would no. If there's birthday parties and stuff, I'm like. Get over. I'll. I'll take care of that. It's fine. Don't worry.

8:42 I'll take care of it. It's good. Yeah. I love my wrapping paper. This year I had to go to a special. Like I did a special trip. Wow. To get my wrapping paper from a shop that I wasn't otherwise planning on going to. Yeah. So I just love it. I went with a red and pink theme this year. Nice. Yeah. Yeah, mine's been dictated to me by whatever the variety was that I got the you know how when you order from like Big W or whatever? Oh yeah, a variety of choices. Just sort of waiting to see whatever they put in the parcel colours didn't at the time.

9:09 I don't know. Yeah. I've got to pick it up OK. So I'm like, 'cause I liked the like the pack, like all the design, you know, one's preferable than the other probably. But the colour theme, OK. But I was like, OK, I'll order 2 of that and we'll see what we get out of that option. You both the same. Well, I was actually hoping they didn't. I I was kind of hoping they didn't match. They match 'cause they're like a similar thing. Oh, OK. But I'm like, all right, either way, I'll be fine, I think. Yeah.

9:31 But we'll see. Yeah. Just leaving it to the gods this year, yeah. Well, you know what? If any year is the year for you to do that, this is the year. Yeah, this is the year it is. Yeah. All right. Well, our kids are. I don't know about yours. I'm sure they're exactly the same. Limping towards the end of the. Year as well. Big time. The young one, Our young ones have athletics day today. Yeah, it's a beautiful day, but like weather wise, yeah. But I'm like they are just so exhausted. They are really exhausted, like, yeah.

9:57 And an emotional and it's hard, yeah. Yeah, so let's hope they all get through that and then one more week and then we're all on school holidays and it's gonna be so. It's gonna be great. I always find with the the Christmas school holidays they are two weeks too long. I feel like if they were only. Two weeks too short. I feel like you could shut up. I feel like if they were four weeks, I could easily get through that. Yeah, right. But the those last two weeks before they go back to school on that, we're all ready.

10:26 We're all ready for everything to go back to normal. I could. I could go with them, go longer. Of course you could hard like oh. Yeah. I mean, I'm not juggling work. And if they're off, I'm off then. Exactly. Yeah, yeah, it's very different for me with Yeah. So I'd live that all the time if I could of. Course. I got paid to, you know, home school. I would, but I don't get paid. So they've got to go to school and do that. Yeah, shut on, off so I can go to. Work. Go to work and earn money. All right.

10:55 Should we get into today's case? Mm hmm. OK, so I'm hanged. Yeah. I mean, you were just saying like this, this case has been a bit of an obsession for you. Yeah, I'm not like recent, recent, like when it sort of all happened, I was, I was in it. There was a there's a podcast called we should say, I guess we're doing the case of the Delphi murders as they're known for Libby and Abby, Libby German and Abby, Abby Williams. So I there's a podcast by the name of Down the Hill, which is we'll get to why that is significant.

11:26 And they it's phenomenal. Have you ever listened to it? It's a long form. Yeah. So I was pretty engrossed in that as it was as it was being released. At that time, there was way too much of it to listen to in this week to. Prepare for this. Way too much cast. But I did listen to a couple of key episodes where I wasn't sort of things I wanted to know a little bit more about because it's really detailed. Yeah. Well, and this is the thing with this case there, there is a lot of detail and a lot of information, but at the same time, there's a lot we don't know and has never been released.

11:51 That's right. So it's a very, I find it a very interesting case for that reason. And I think that's one of the reasons that people are so interested in this case. Too, yes, and I wonder whether that's purposeful for that in some way. I don't know. I have varying thought the ill interest. The same. I I feel exactly the same. Yeah. Yeah. It's a, it's a really interesting one. Yes, yes. So we're talking about the murders of Liberty Rose Lynn German, who was born on the 27th of December in 2002. She was known as Libby and she was a really witty, tech savvy and brave girl.

12:30 That's the way her mum describes her. Her mother's name is Carrie and her father's name is Derek. They were together, They ended up they had two children together. Libby had an older sister named Kelsey, and they split up. Not long, I think after Libby was born and both of them ended up spending some time in prison. So Carrie spent time in prison, I think, for drug charges, and I think similar for Derek. For Derek as well. From what I can gather, yeah. So when both parents were in prison, Derek's mum and dad, Becky and Mike, Paddy took guardianship of the girls and raised them.

13:11 And they are the loveliest people, absolutely. You can see them interviewed in documentaries, even on some podcasts they and even just interviews with the police that have been released that you can hear details from them. They are gorgeous, gorgeous people. Like just so lovely. And you can tell how heartbroken they are that this happened to their granddaughter. It's just. So, so incredibly tragic. Absolutely. They really am. I think we've in the scenario of a grandparent stepping up into that role of parent.

13:44 They've done it how it needed, needs to be done, like kind of stuff. They've hit every mark of getting it right. The parents have been involved, you know, throughout things. It's not like they dismissed them and we're like, you know, and they then they've raised them. It's all, it's been a joint effort, but the guardianship of legally has come under the grandparents of both the girls, which I mean, but they've done an incredible job raising them, all four of their. Parents. Yeah. That's it. Absolutely.

14:07 So at the time of Libby's murder, Derek was actually living with, in the home. Yeah. The, with his two daughters put his shit together and stuff. Yeah, he was. He really was starting to, yeah, turn his life around. And, like, it would be really difficult coming out of prison to then find work and get yourself back on your feet. But that's what he was trying to do. And a similar can be said for Carrie. Yeah. She was actually living in Kentucky at the time, so she wasn't living in Delphi or anywhere around Delphi.

14:36 I think she, I think they said she was about 200 miles away or something like that. Sounds about a while. Yeah. You know, a few hours, like an hour or two. Drive, I think, yeah. And did I say she lived in Kentucky? Yeah, what did I say, Tucky? It was definitely, Yeah, I just. Can't remember Tucky rang a bell when you said it and I was like oh, was it not OK it? Was it was so Abigail Joyce Williams was born on the 23rd of June in 2003. She was known as Abby and she was artistic, thoughtful and sporty.

15:08 According to her mum, she was an only child and lived with her mum and a cat named Bongo Bongo Bongo. So that's been the jungle. And she and her mum were their own little family unit. Her mum raised her on her own. And her mum is also just like, she seems like a very lovely, definitely loving mother. Mm hmm. She did everything she could for Abby to give Abby the life that I think she didn't necessarily have as a child growing up. Really fair to say. Yeah, and it's, you know, to her testament that Abby grew into such AI mean, you know, she was 13 years old when she was murdered, but she was a really lovely, like very valued member of the school community and the and the broader.

15:55 Community absolutely and the way that their you know their friendship group speak about the two of them because the two of them were particularly tight best friends. You know it was kind of that, you know as you get, you know the best friends within a group of friends like kind of situation and the way that they have friends talk about their friendship but also their broader friendships. They were obviously girls that were energetic, you know, involved in everything. They literally were part of everything they could be.

16:20 They loved their sports, they loved their music. They love, you know, all these various things they got involved in. They were not shy, quiet kids, but they were well, engaged and and productive. Total teenagers. Yeah. He. Was described as being more shy than the leader. Yeah, I think she was maybe just personality wise it wasn't. It wasn't like a no no happened for her to be that way. No, just generally speaking, she was quieter. Yeah. Yeah, They bounced off each other well, apparently. And. The fact that they both both were involved in so many different things and really took interest in each others interests.

16:52 I mean, I guess that's what besties do when you're 13 and 14 and that's your whole world, isn't it? Your best friends? Yeah. Your purse. Well. Even they said like that they, they got on holidays together, like Libby had gone with Abbye family on a holiday. And I think that it was gonna go the other way the next summer holidays kind of stuff, which 'cause they just come off for summer holidays at this point or just about to sort of I believe. Yeah. So they, they were sort of talking already that, you know, since you went with, you know, with, with Abby's, with Libby's.

17:16 Sorry, Abby went with Libby's family. So since you went with Libby's family, Abby, you know, next summer holidays, we'll take Libby with us and we'll do a holiday trip. And it was, yeah, I mean, it was just that kind of inbuilt family extending it out to having, you know, other people involved in their lives, which were really solid people. Yeah, that's it. Yeah. And you know, you look at those families and you think, God, I'd be happy for my kids to, you know, be friends with people like that. Totally be as involved in in the families.

17:44 Yeah, people like that. So I guess we should talk a little bit about Delphi and what Delphi's like. So Delphi is a small town in Indiana and it is tiny. 3000 people live there and the next biggest city is Lafayette. So in order in Delphi, there's almost nothing to do if you wanna go to the movies. If you wanna go to like a bigger shopping centre, you have to actually go to Lafayette, which is I think about a 30 odd minute drive. Yeah, yeah. 3040 minute drive, yeah. And so you think about what it would be like to live in such a small community as a teenager with not too much to do.

18:22 There's like certain places that teens always go to hang out and things that they do. And one of the things is to go hiking. It's AI mean Indiana. You know, you look at some of the scenes when you're researching this case and yeah, oh, it's a beautiful place. It's not somewhere that's ever been on my radar to visit. But no, you look at it and you think, oh, what a what a really lovely sort of. Remote town? Yeah. Yep, Yep. You. Know it's like there's. Beautiful wooded areas and, yeah, streams and lakes and things like your rivers.

18:52 Gorgeous. Yeah, yeah, beautiful. But also though, when I think of like Indiana in general, I think of like the middle, like the show, the middle I. Love that show. Great. No, you don't watch it. Oh, my God. But yeah, I think of those sort of like, but genuine like generous gender with families. Yeah. Then that's what sort of it brings to mind to me of like that she was the episode just watching recently or the middle of where Child Protective Services come to their house, you know, and they're stressing that they're gonna lose the kids.

19:17 And when she finally get pins her down to say, you know, nobody is everything OK, you know, because she thinks that's total chaos in their house. And the woman says you have no idea what I see on a day-to-day. Your family is so normal. You think you're insane, but you are the stock standard. You are what we sure should all aim to be, you know, like, yes, and I love that. Like that's what I think of Indiana being too. Just that, I don't know, just real genuine people. Yeah, my favorite episode of the Middle is where they go on holidays and they've got a neighbor coming to like, feed the cat or something.

19:48 And then she comes and she rings them and she's like, Oh my God, your house has been burgled. Yeah. And so they come home. They're like, shit, shit. They come home. They open the door. Yeah. And the police are in there. The neighbors got the police and they're in. They're like, ma'am, please just let us know what's missing. We'll file the report and you can like there's a voice over what she's thinking and she's like, little did they know this is actually exactly how we left our house and hasn't been robbed at all.

20:10 Have. To go along with like, Oh yeah, no, this was not how we left it at all. This is so messy. I just love it. I just absolutely love it. So getting back to Delphi, sorry, everyone knows everyone in the town, you know, even if it's at a glance, you know, everyone sort of knows who's who's there, who should be there and a little bit about the background of most people. Yes, it's quite spread out as well because there are some really massive rural properties within the confines of. Delphi, yeah. The Monon High Bridge is a local landmark.

20:48 It's on a on a very popular hiking trail. It actually is the end of this particular hiking trail and. Yeah, you literally can't. Like you can't get anywhere at the end of it. You have to turn around and come back again. That's right. Yep. That's right. So it's enough. So by the time you get to the bridge, it's in a fairly secluded area of this hiking trail. It The bridge was built in 1881 as a rail bridge. Yeah. And it is about 65 to 70 foot feet off the ground, which is like. 30. Meters, 2530 meters on the ground and underneath the massive pool.

21:23 There's no guardrails or anything like that underneath. It is like a river that that flows underneath, which is I guess why the. There's a bridge, is there? And it's blocked off at the at the end that the the trail leads to, it's actually blocked off with a gate. But so many teens and kids will climb that gate and actually walk across. Yeah, the bridge, yes. Now it is dilapidated. It hasn't been maintained. There are rotting struts missing. Struts. There's no rail on the side, like it is literally just an open form.

21:58 I look at that, nothing my fucking. Lord, there are like people that I've listened to, like journalists who have gone out there, like looking at this, that you go, that go, there's no fucking way I'd get on that bridge. Yeah, like as an adult or whatever, Like teenagers, they do it a little bit easier and. It's a bit of a risk taking sort of thing and it is something that they dare each other to do and. And even in that, I guess it shows their personalities very much so that Libby was pretty avid on it.

22:24 She loved going out onto that bridge, whereas Abby was not counting so much. So she would be very hesitant, like people would be surprised if she'd go out there. She's like she, she was not keen on it at all. And Abby's mum said, I mean, we're gonna get to this in a minute, but Abby's mum saw that Abby was on that bridge and she's like, I was gonna bloody kill her. Like she knows she's not allowed to go on there. Yeah. It's so dangerous. Crazy. Yeah. Yeah, I know you wouldn't get me on there. No way, no.

22:49 So in the US, so there are allotted snow, daytime snow days that are allotted. And if they're not used, the kids actually then get the and I assume the teachers, yeah, then get those days as makeup days in the summer. So that was. Oh no, sorry, it was coming out of winter. I'm coming Australia because it was February, wasn't. It was coming out. Coming out of winter, so hadn't used into spring. That's it. They Yeah. So what happened is they had, I think they ended up having 2 snow days that weren't used over winter.

23:19 Yeah. And so coming into the spring months, the school I guess decides on what day they can can use those days up. Yeah. So they decided on this particular Monday that it was going to be a student free day at one of the make up snow days. Yeah. And it turned out to be a particularly nice day on this day, like really early, quite warm day. So lovely. Lucky. Skies sunny day. Yeah, the night before, the girls decided to organize a sleepover at Libby's. Not unusual. They did it all the time. They slept at one another's houses all of the time, and they'd spent the day playing softball in the backyard.

23:53 They did some watercolor painting and they watched a movie. So again, just your typical day and night leading in on the day of the incident, which was the 13th. I've just had a mental blank. 13th of February 2017. Oh my.

24:12 God on the 13th, Mike. So Mike, the dad who was living with the grandparents and Libby at the time, and Kelsey, he made them breakfast. And Kelsey being the older sister, she could drive. Now, I think we've described how remote Delphi is and in order to get anywhere, you kind of had to drive. It's not like the girls could have even to hop on your bike to ride. I had a little too far, too far, yeah. So they were wanting to do something. They were probably bored knocking around at home and they've done all the things they were going.

24:42 To do well, they were helping out Libby's grandma, doing some filing and stuff for her, her business at the time when at home, and they'd finished doing that. So they were like, they'd slept in quite late and as you do on, you know, day off, why not? But they, they, yeah, they've kind of been doing all these filing things for, for the graph for grandma and kind of going, well, what else can we do today? And yeah, when Kelsey said she was heading out, they jumped at the chance to kind of go, well, can you give us a ride somewhere and we'll get outside?

25:06 So yeah, she wasn't that keen to take them though. Kelsey was like, they had been asking me for like, days and hours. Like, you know, they'd asked her the week before to take them somewhere as well. And she was like, no, I'm not doing it. Like how annoying. Shut up. But on this particular day, she was going to a boyfriend's house, which kind of went past the, the nature of reserve where they, the girls wanted to be dropped off at the hiking tracks. So yeah, she was like, all right, come on in, then.

25:31 But she's like, I'm not picking you up, so you need to organize somebody else to pick you up. Yeah. And Libby asked her dad, Dad, would it be all right if you picked me up? And he's like, Yep, got to run some errands for grandma, and I'll probably be able to pick you up about 3:00-ish. Yeah, Yeah. So keep your phone on you. I'll. Call you when I'm give you a call, yeah. Libby had a phone Abby didn't yet. Which I love that too. Almost like that butthole. They just, yeah, good instant kids that went yeah.

25:58 And they're on the verge of that, You know, that next step. Yeah, I can kind of see. I mean, we've got kids that are approaching that now. And I'm like, I get it. Yeah, I get. I love that she's been able to hold out and like, yeah, even though her best friends got one. Yeah, Abbys not not as interested, you know, like which, you know, it's fine too. And they. Yeah. So we know due to CCTV footage from a car park that was sorry, I think it was a service station that was across the road from where Kelsey dropped the girls at the at the nature reserve.

26:29 Yeah. That she dropped them there at 1:49 PM on that afternoon. Yeah. She stayed in her car until she couldn't see them anymore. So the CCTV footage, I think you can. You can't see the girls. Like, it's not close enough to be able to see their faces or anything, but they can tell it was definitely Kelsey's car. Yeah. They get the two young girls get out of the car, and Kelsey actually watches them go down the track until she can't see them anymore. Then she reverses out and drives off. Yeah. The girls go down the Monon High Bridge trail.

27:00 As we said, it's fairly secluded and a lot of the time I think only really locals knew about this picture. It was tracked. Easy to find. And it's this, when I looked at the map of it as well, the start of it isn't near the road, No. So it's not. There were plenty of other trails and tracks, yeah. There's other options to go down, yeah. Yeah, I feel like you would see those first. And if you weren't from the area, you'd. Go those those other tracks they they say really only locals go there. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

27:28 And it. Was about a 15 minute walk from like I think roughly the car park area to where this moon on high bridge starts. The trail starts. Yeah, Yeah. So it's still a fairway in, you know, of of walking. Yeah. To get to where you begin this track. That's it. Yeah. That's it now, because Libby had her phone with her at about 2:07 PM she posted to Snapchat photos. Now, first of all, how does a 14 year old take such an amazing photo? This photo of is of Abby on the moon on hybrid Yeah and it is Oh my God, it is such a cool photo.

28:07 It's. A really cool photo I imagine. I'm like you know exactly why she posted it and so she should have. It was great photo. It was such a good photo. Yeah. Maybe we can pop that on our socials, you reckon? Yep, Yep. And this is when Abby's mum saw the photo on Snapchat and went, Oh my God, when she gets home, I'm going to kill her. She's like, this is she? No, she's not allowed on that bridge. That would be the same. Same. The other photo she posted was a black and white photo of the bridge. Bridge.

28:32 Yeah. Again, that was stunning. Yeah. Like she's, she was obviously a really good photographer. She had that sort of knack about it. Yeah. Just the angle and whatever. Yeah, I feel like if I took a photo of that, everyone. Would be like shy. It's like a bridge. Yeah, it's. A bridge, yeah. Very artistic angles, whatever. Yeah. So yes, the bridges dilapidated, but it just looked really rustic and really cool in those photos. Yes. So at 3:11 PM, Derek sent a message to Libby saying that he was a couple of minutes away.

29:01 So the girls kind of knew that roughly 3:00 Derek was coming to pick them up. Yeah. So they were responsible enough that he was like, they won't be far from where we were from the car park where we're gonna where I'm going. Yeah, I'll be pulling up and if they're not there, they'll be not far away, like, yeah. He arrived at 3:13 PM, and Abby and Libby weren't there. Again. He just assumed, OK, they're a couple of minutes away. They can't be far. They know you know, They know I'm coming. Yeah. He waited a few minutes, and then he called Libby.

29:32 So he'd sent her a text message originally. Then he's like, well, she's not here. I'm bloody going to call her and see where she is. Yeah. He didn't get an answer, so he ended up getting out of his car and he started to walk down the trail. Meanwhile also trying to call her phone. Yeah. And there's absolutely no sign of them. I think he thought that by the time he got to the start of the trail, they'd be there. And be. Walking back and blog also. I'm sorry, that's track. Of time or whatever. Yeah.

29:57 At 3:20 PM, Derek encountered Dan McCain. So this was an older man who was walking along the trail. Derek asked him if he'd seen the girls, and he said he hadn't see them, seen them, but he'd seen a couple under the bridge making out or what he thought they were making out. And so he just ignored that and walked away because he's like, whatever they were doing under there was none of my business. So he said that was the only sort of unusual thing that he'd. Seen. Yeah, right. Yeah. At 3:30 Derek called Becky his mum to see whether there was a bit of a mix up or something, or the girls might have called her to pick them up earlier and she just.

30:38 Didn't know, yeah. And Becky said no, like I, I see nothing to. According to me, none of the plans have changed. No, you will never know anything else up now. Yeah. So Becky, I, I feel like she had a pretty instant because. That was so responsible. I think that this was so unusual that they weren't, she wasn't answering her phone and that they weren't where they were supposed to be. This was not a normal situation for them. So I think it, yeah, it heightened the thought process pretty quickly for her.

31:07 And I feel like it's probably worth mentioning as well that the girls had done this hike hundreds of times. Before they loved going there, they went there so many times. That's yeah. And it's where all the local teens would hang out. They'd go there with other friends. It was just something they did all the time. They were so familiar with the area. The. The actual moon on High Bridge, not quite. As I say, Abby would hate, hate it going on it. They didn't do that necessarily. But that area, they were out there all the time doing, you know, trails.

31:34 Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so you know, what Becky ended up doing was calling friends of their close girlfriends of theirs to say, like, did you meet up with them? Do you know where they might be? Have they called you? They've been in contact. With you. Because, you know, she might have thought, oh, they might have decided to go and meet up for an ice cream or like, who knows, You know, Yeah. Not that they were irresponsible, but you know, teenagers, sometimes you can kind of get caught up in your own shit.

31:59 Yeah, yeah. None of none of the friends had heard from them, aside from the fact that one of them said, oh, we did see a Snapchat. Yeah. From Libby, Yeah. Earlier, like a couple of hours earlier, yeah. Becky then called Kelsey Libbye, oldest sister to say like, did you definitely drop them off or have you picked them up? Did you make different arrangements? Yeah. And Kelsey was like, no, but she immediately got in her car and went down, down there, down to see what was going on. Yeah, by this stage, Becky also rang Mike, their grandfather Libby and Kelsey's grandfather, and he came from home, from work immediately and went to the went to the scene.

32:37 Yeah. And they were all, they all started looking for them. Yeah. In amongst all this, I think Becky realized like once they'd all gotten down to the where the hike was starting from, Becky was like, oh shit, we haven't actually called Abby's mom to find out what's going on there. So to let her know or see if she knows anything. Yes. So Becky, Becky, sorry, Abby's mom was actually her name's Anna. She was at work at the time. And so Becky tried calling her phone, no answer. Then Becky was like, well, I'll call the restaurant that she works at.

33:12 She worked as a bartender, I think, and she, I don't know if she wasn't able to get in contact with her. I'm not quite sure, but I think Becky ended up going to the restaurant where where Abby's mum worked and asked her, you know, and told her about the situation. She's like, no, no. But she says that her immediate feeling was they've lost track of time. Maybe they got a bit lost or went off on a trail that they didn't quite know and that, you know, she would go and have everyone would go and have a look for them.

33:43 They'd eventually find them and it'll be fine. Yeah, it'd be a bit of a non issue. Yeah, I think there was like, I think Becky out of all of them was potentially the one thinking, OK, we know they're on the moon High Bridge. And if one of them fell like, I think she was starting to get that to that thought process of like that's a that's, that could be. Shit, yeah, that's a very serious thing. Yeah. Yeah. So by this time, so yeah, as I said, Mike left work and Cody, who was Libby's uncle, he also, he'd actually only just come home from work, found out what was going on, and he also joined.

34:18 Yes. So at this point it's about 5:00 PM. Derek, Becky, Kelsey, Mike and Cody were all looking for the girls and Anna showed up about 20 minutes later. At that time Mikes like it's starting to get dark. This is really SUS. This is now like 2 almost 2 1/2 hours after the girls had said they were. Gonna meet, yeah. I'm really worried I'm calling the police. Yeah, the police got there within half an hour. So which I think is probably a pretty good response time given the the distances that they had to come from.

34:50 Yes. And what they, what the police initially suspected was that the girls had just gotten themselves lost. They've gone off a trail and they've gotten themselves. Maybe when I was rolled an ankle and they're stuck somewhere, you know they. Had to get their way out or get that bit out for themselves. Yeah, they did think it was odd that Becky, that sorry that Libby wasn't answering her phone. Yeah, but it got also then got to the point where it was going straight to voicemail. So they obviously, they kept calling cool.

35:18 The authorities arrived on the scene at about 5:50 PM. And as I said, you know, everyone thought that they were lost or somebody, something had happened. So at this time as well, the police did start to like maybe question the family members, not in an official capacity by any stretch of the imagination, but more to get information and see what the what type of personalities the girls had. Were they risk takers? Was this something that was out of the ordinary for them? You know, trying to gather a bit of information?

35:47 Also the fact that they weren't able to give definitive times, Yeah, like they were. So it's out from the police perspective. They were like, what? You don't even know what time you dropped them here. Like you don't even know what time you got. You got here to pick them up, like, which to me is normal. Like they weren't clock watching on that day. Of course not. So they were able to track all those times by looking at phones of and then going, oh, I called them at this time, so I must have arrived at this time.

36:09 And you know, so that's that's where they got that official information from in the end. But at the time they're like, I don't know, it was maybe like 1130 that we dropped them here, but I don't know, it could have been 2. Like. So that's where they were kind of going. Well, we don't have a lot of information. Yeah, that's definitive. Yeah. That the cops were then going. Well, we don't really know what we're looking for Years. We don't know how long they've been here for. Yes, that was hard at the beginning, which is not the family's fault.

36:31 I'm not saying that for their fault, but yeah. But that kind of made a bit trickier, I guess. I I guess so, yeah. Yeah, for sure. The other perspective of this is they brought in the fire brigade as well, just help search for the girls. But that is a completely voluntary role in the city, the town of Delphi, there is not anyone paid to be fire services. So they all work full time jobs and do this on the side it's. Like the CFA for US 100? Percent, but that's all they have. We have then attached that you have paid employees, you know, out of, you know, a country fire authority situation.

37:06 Very true. Whereas here you and you might have your volunteers who do have volunteers to pitch in, but this was completely voluntary. So it all these people coming in after work, working a full time, full time job to come and help out and support. So yeah, it's makes it a bit interesting. And I guess in a town like this as well, everyone knew something was going on. Yeah. Like. The word got out real fast. The word did get out really quickly. And so even people who weren't associated with the Volunteer Fire authority, yeah, were coming out and with their own torches and their own, you know, mobile phones, yeah, walkie talkies and stuff to, to come and search for the girls, which is.

37:43 Great, but that also comes with. Other risks, That's right. But yeah, at this point you think, Oh yeah, of course, like of course you would let everyone go and look for them because at this point they're looking for girls who have gone crossing off the park, the trails. Might be injured and we need they need you to get to them and help them. Right. They need the manpower to be able to cover this vast, vast area in which they could possibly be. Yeah. So they keep going in terms of the search with all of these, all of these people.

38:09 Yeah, law enforcement are also then trying Libby's phone to see where it last pinged. And they they find that it's either been switched off or the voicemails full and it goes straight to yeah, voicemail or it's lost or, or it's like run out of battery. Yeah, but it also like with the towers in the area, because there weren't very many towers in the area. The pinging of the phones and it will come into play a little bit later on too. The ping of the phones is interesting because there's only so many towers that can ping off.

38:39 Yeah. So pinpointing where her her location is off of that is. Actually quite difficult anyway, Yeah. It's not like you're in metropolitan city where it could be. You can really, really take yourself very down to the Philly, pretty much a street corner kind of situation. Absolutely. It's not like that at all. Like, yeah, so by 6:00 PM, there were over 100 local volunteers, including the fire department. Yeah, the Department of Natural Resources and the the Carroll County Sheriff's Department. And I believe they had called in the state police as well at this.

39:15 Point Yes. So around midnight. So these volunteers are searching from 6:00 PM to midnight. Around midnight it the call is made to call it off because. Or just postpone it. Postpone. Yeah, Yeah. Sorry, sorry. To postpone to sunlight because it's a dangerous place to be. Yeah. In the dark, when I say dangerous, it's not because of human predators. It's undulating. There's sticks and twigs and you know, anyone could have slipped and broken an ankle or gotten themselves lost themselves. And then you've got you're looking for volunteers who are looking.

39:49 For people adding to your getting 2 numbers of yeah. Mike Libby's grandfather said that he was actually a little bit relieved when this happened in a way because he actually felt so responsible for all of the people who were out there, Yeah, looking for his granddaughter, that he he was kind of relieved that the safety of those people were then was now considered, although he was so obviously so desperate to find Libby. Yeah, some people are really annoyed that this got this happened. It was it was called off at that point or postponed at that point.

40:18 I can see both sides. I can understand as a family member, I'd be like, I wouldn't want to stop booking, I've got to find them. But at the same time I completely understand the decision that was made though. Yeah, with a level head I go, yeah, it was the right decision to make and it didn't change, wouldn't have changed the outcome, unfortunately. It might have changed crime scene but we don't know much. We don't know. So Becky and Mike and I think Cody and Derek, they all stayed at the site in the car park.

40:45 Yeah. Overnight. And hoping they just walk out somewhere. That's it. Yeah. Just what? Of course, I would do the exact same thing. You couldn't take me away from there. Nope. So at daylight, at sunlight, which was about 8:15 the next morning, so it must have still been. Winter, you know. When the the sun's rising a little bit later. So this is now on the 14th of February. Yeah. The search teams were kind of much more organized. And overnight, the Police Department had been able to put into place a little bit of a, a plan of how they were going to search the next morning.

41:17 And so they had a get, they had more than 100 volunteers the next morning, and they put them into teams of roughly 10 people. And they gave them areas in which to search. Yeah. And so it was a far more methodical way. Yeah. And. Yeah. And. Really coordinated. Coordinated, which you know. How that's a good thing? I mean, yeah, yeah, they did that correctly, absolutely. Yeah. So the next day, so this is the February the 14th, a volunteer is out looking and he finds a black Nike shoe. Yeah. Now Kelsey overhears, Kelsey Libby's older sister overhears this volunteer saying, hey, I've found something.

41:59 I've found something. It's a black Nike shoe. Because of the information that the police had gathered the day before, they knew what the girls were wearing when they disappeared, and Kelsey knew immediately that that black Nike shoe belonged to Libby. Can you imagine how that that would feel in that moment? Yeah, but then I find this really hard then, because obviously they find what they find and the information is filtered to the grandparents and and and parents that they've found the girls and that they get told they've been found.

42:36 Can you imagine the excitement that you feel of Oh my God, thank God they've been found, but then realizing. Have you heard Becky's account of this? Yeah. It's sickening. It's sickening. Oh, sorry, my heart broke. Mike said that as soon as he heard that, he knew. He knew. Yeah, he understood what that meant. He understood. But she and I can understand that because you want that desperately. Oh, thank God they're being found. They're fine. Like, you know, that's. Where your head goes. You want to go there?

43:07 Because the the other way she probably Becky probably couldn't even fathom that there was any other outcome. And the fact that, you know, they've been missing for less than 24 hours that you kind of go, OK, yeah, they'll be hungry and they'll be thirsty, but they'll be, they'll be alive. Like if you've been lost, yeah, it might have a broken leg because you've fallen. That's why they're all dealable things. What they found were the deceased remains of Abby and Libby. And as you said, this information had sort of filtered back up to the top of the car park, which is where Becky was sort of waiting.

43:44 She'd finished her area, so she was just coming back to the post to kind of go give me another area to start searching, yeah. And her sister, Becky's sister, was there. Yeah. And she went over to her sister and said, Oh my God, did you hear? They found the girls. And her sister said to her, yeah, they're dead. Oh my God. Oh, it would just be awful. And she was like, no, no, I, I don't believe you. Like she was in absolute denial. Not again. You would. You know, that's, oh God, just awful. Awful.

44:17 It's just horrible. So the bodies were found on a private property? Yeah, which was on the north side of the Creek. That run ran under the Monongaho Bridge. Basically where the bridge is, you'd have to go down off the bridge, over the river and down a little further and that's where they were found. That's right. So yeah, other side of the river about a kilometer and 1/2 from the bridge. So yeah, you know, a fair distance. So it was far enough that they couldn't easily be seen from the bridge. No, it was.

44:45 Yeah, they were, they were semi hidden in that respect. Yeah, it was quite wooded too. Yeah, in the area, yeah, very densely wooded area. Yeah. All right, so the FBI immediately become involved at this point. Yes. They worked with the Indiana State Police to establish and process the crime scene. However, like lots of things here, I just feel like we don't know whether things were missed or whether they just haven't been communicated publicly. And I feel like there's probably a bit of both of those things going on.

45:15 Do you feel like that too? I'm actually veering more on the side of just not released, OK, But also the fact that, OK, So what we're dealing with here is a crime scene outdoors, Yep, where there's been search and rescue stomping through and looking, we're dealing with just general outdoor elements. Well, also two Dr. The reason so once this once Libby's shoe was found, what alerted that particular searcher to then look was because they were two Dr. Like, you know, maybe 10 or 15 meters away from like really close.

45:49 Yeah. And he's like, oh, what are they doing? And that made him walk over there. And that's when he found their body. Yes. So yes, wildlife has been interfering. This is it. I think so within you know, within 24 hours this site has been, you know, potentially already contaminated, not intentionally by any means. So how how you then do like, you know, process that crime scene is challenging in itself. So I think between that and then the way this, I think the fact there was state, there was county, federal all involved too they I think they elements of it were done very well and elements of it weren't.

46:28 Yeah, I find it very interesting because I mean, we know a lot more now than what they did in the public did in 2017. Even in 2024, most of this stuff came out. So, yeah, it's only recent that we've we've been able to attain a lot of the information in relation to this case. Yeah. They never released a cause of death. They never released what the bodies, what the state of the body. So a lot of assumptions made around that and one of them horse. Assumptions were made because they were giving out the information.

46:57 No. People are like, of course, I feel like it's human nature to then speculate on what happened. Well, it's because they knew some information, but not all the information. It was when they were like planning like the girl's funerals like that, that that one got me when like Becky was told by like the funeral director, like, you know, like, what do you want to bury her in? And but you'll need to have can you bring a scarf? And she was like a scarf. Like she never wore scarf really. Like, why would she need a scarf?

47:22 And it dawned on her because she'd never been told anything about how she had passed away or any of those things, that it wasn't until that point that she was like, OK, so there must have been some damage to her neck. And therefore that's why they're saying bring a scarf. I can understand the police not releasing that information to the families until they've interviewed them, yes. And excluded them as possible suspects. Yeah, I can understand that. But that had been done. That had been done, and they still didn't tell.

47:49 They have a right to know that stuff and not to say share on a podcast or to share on a on a, you know, media, you know, on a documentary or whatever, but at least for them to know for her to like sit in that that documentary that I heard her say that in the ego to get to that point who have not have those and that knowledge was that's. Heartbreaking. Oh, and to find it out that. That way Oh. Gosh. No. Oh. It's just awful. It really is. Really is. So February 15th, the following day is a very crucial part of this.

48:19 They do release that smidgen of information to the public that basically. And they don't, again, they don't give a lot of context to it. So they don't even say where they've found this from. Yeah, we can tell you where they found it from because we found it later. Yeah. So just putting them into context at that press conference. It was it was put out to the the community, this grainy image. A still photo. A still photo. So the information of the fact that that came from Libby's phone that she had recorded off of that on the bridge that day, you don't know any of that at this time, but we all know that.

48:54 Well, people were saying like, was it a trail camera? Was it, you know, had someone set up a trail camera to catch deer or yes, something like that, and nobody really knew. That was and why this guy was like being, you know, looked at because obviously there's a big difference between it coming off of Libby's phone that she's recorded him on to, you know, the fact that it's come off of a trail camera, some random person. Walking along the bridge. You know, so anyway, this grainy image is released to the public of this man on the Moon High Bridge walking along with his hand in his pocket.

49:25 And it's sort of just it's, you don't can't really see facial features. No, he's kind of looking down. And down. Yeah, and it seems to maybe even how to have a hat on. Maybe. Really. Tell it's so. Grainy, Yeah. So this image when it was released out, I sparked because it was so little information. It meant that there's the the armchair detectives out there did go a little bit nuts on this and they did like pull this apart and try and like enhance it and get more information because the police weren't giving it.

49:52 There was some talk of like that in his pocket. Potentially there was a gun you can see. The outline of. The outline of a gun. I can, sort of. I can. Sort of see where they're. Coming at anything, it could have been like the corner of a mobile phone sticking out. Yeah. Like, we just don't know. No. And there's no way to definitively know. No. He's wearing blue jeans, a blue or black sort of like jacket. Yeah, jacket. There's not a lot of other identifying information there. Sort of get, you know, hit the bulk of his build like kind of thing and he's yeah.

50:27 But even as they they've said, they said at the press conference, remember that he's, well, that's maybe later when they do the image of the video. But you know, this, the way he's standing, he's walking on a bridge where there's missing planks. Yeah. So you can't even get an idea of he's getting a language or, you know, or anything like that. But yeah, the press conferences in all of this are all very interesting, particularly just trying to get who it was, the main guy that spoke at them, the name of him.

50:56 It will come to me. Which guy? The police officer, the he was, he's the head of the state, the Superintendent for the state. I know. So do I know somewhere he's written down in my notes here. Same. So he speaks at most of them and he's very interesting the way he speaks. Superintendent Doug Carter. I've literally. Seen it as soon as he said, yeah, Superintendent Doug Carter. Yeah, he's. The way he speaks is very dramatic, very poignant. It's also very like. Gaudy. Yes, and that's this is the thing.

51:30 People have pulled apart his speech as to whether or not there's purpose behind how we talk. Well, I think this is a very interesting tact that people have taken. Yeah. Like they, they're trying to read in between the lines and they think he's got these like messages that he's trying to get through by. It's not. Saying anything and. And I think that's, I think that's something that law enforcement can learn from this case, is that if you don't give the public a enough, they'll find it. They'll find it.

51:57 Yeah. Or they'll either find it and it'll be maybe down the right path, but it may not be as well because there is a whole host of different theories that have come from this. Yeah. And a lot of them are just work. Because one of them, one of these press conferences, and again, I think it might have been the next one where they released the video. Yeah. He spoke in that press conference about you may even be in this room, who we're looking for, you know, and looked and, you know, and everyone's like kind of going.

52:22 Where is it good? All of the police officers in that room, Have you seen that? Response. Same spot, same spot. They'll move and. Look, and then everyone's like, was that coordinated? Are they actually looking at a person? Do they know who they're looking for? What's going on? Is it someone in this room? And everyone's like, fuck yeah, like how freaky. So dramatic. Like what was the point to that that Was there a point to it or was it just coincidence that they all did that, I feel like. I feel like they wanted people to think they knew more than they knew.

52:47 Yeah. And yeah, I, I just, and maybe to scare people out, maybe because, because they also said in that in that press conference, we've either interviewed you or someone very close to you. Yeah. Wish they hadn't. They hadn't, but well, yes. And so it's, yeah, I think they were trying to shake the tree. Yeah. See what came loose out of that? Didn't work, no. At all. At all. Yeah, interesting. But yeah, so that that grainy image was released on February 15th. It was. It was a little while later they did then release a sketch of.

53:27 Not yeah, not very long after they released the first sketch. So the sketch that they released of this person was supposedly it, that they said at the press conference, this is the man that was on the bridge. This is the man we're looking for. They don't even like, say we just want to speak to them. He's now the suspect. This is the like, if everyone's a bit like the bridge, they called him Bridge Guy pretty quickly after the first image being released. So like, Bridge Guy is the man we're wanting for this.

53:53 It was really definitive that, you know, we've decided that that's him. Yeah. Now we've just got to find him. Yeah. And he's the image of his face. Yeah. Now, sketch imaging is so interesting because it's, this is the image came from a person who had seen him come on or off the bridge. I think you actually saw him go in and out. In and out. Yeah. So he had seen him twice. But at the time, you don't know that this is a person you need to be looking at. This is a perfect stranger who Then you go, oh, yeah, I remember seeing a guy wearing that sort of gear at that place.

54:24 So then go and sit down with a cop and describe someone you've never met before in your life and glanced at in a moment. I mean, how accurate could you be? Yeah, but even. And then describing it well enough to get someone to draw it. I don't know. I mean, I get the idea of like sketch images. I meant to be like, hey, my friend looks somewhat like that and he acted weird that day and he's been talking about Libby and Abby or non-stop since it happened and like, you know what I mean? Like, OK, put the piece of pieces of puzzle together, you know, with multiple other pieces of evidence.

55:00 It's not to kind of go, you know? Oh, yeah. Walk down the street the day and I saw a guy look just like him. That's him. That's him. Yeah. You've never seen him before in your life. Don't know anything about him. Exactly. So sketch imaging, like putting it out to the public like that, I think is a really false impression of how much we know about this person. Well. I, I think you're 100% right. It's, it's an, it's a very interesting choice, but I think at the time as well, the police had nothing.

55:24 No, this is it so. Well, well, they they did, but they didn't want to release the other stuff at this point, which I. Still don't know why, but anyway, same, yeah. Obviously that first line of questioning is family. They eliminated all of the family. Then the given the nature of what we now know is the public. But at the time, no one knew that there was possibility that there was a sexual element to this crime. Because the girls bodies were found naked, their underwear was one pair of their underwear was found to the other person's underwear wasn't they believed wearing.

55:54 Each other's clothes of what they were wearing. Yeah, they, their clothes had been swapped so yeah. And, and they were partially undressed. They hadn't been fully redressed so. We should mention too in all of that. So what we're talking about here is you know, where they've exited the the bridge and gone, you know, kilometre down the path still right from where they were from where. So we're talking there. There was a video the sorry the the photos that she posted even were 207. Derek arrived at the Moon High Bridge Trail at 3:15-ish.

56:24 3 three O 3 I think. 313, yeah, so 315 ish, let's call it. So you're talking an hour between posting that photo where everything's fun and great because it's a beautiful photo to Derek arriving and no answer of her mobile phone talking. Maybe an hour, right. So but also then bringing into the mix of that this guy who has seen the bridge guy exiting the trail, which I believe was around about, it was before 3:00, I want to say. So it was like closer to five to three sort of stuff. So we're talking less than an hour where we're talking, clothes have been swapped, people have been murdered.

57:02 They've walked kilometre down further again from that bridge, a 15 minute walk from the bridge trail back to that park. Path. It is like literally in Bush. No, we don't know which car park he could have he came to. No, no, I mean, I mean the girls like walking from the Monon High Bridge, there's no track to where they were then found. No, literally just in Bush. Yes, even walking that yes is not the same as walking along a path for 1 1/2 kilometre. No. So that's more time. Timeline is tight, very like it's there's a lot that's going on in a short space of time.

57:34 Yeah, yeah. The police then were investigating the 12 known sex offenders who were living in Delphi at the time. Yeah. Then there were hundreds more in the surrounding city. So I'm talking Lafayette and then like in the greater Peru area when? Those these sort of things get looked at like that. I mean, we've said at previous cases, it always blows my mind just how many are in a small space within these things. But also then broader, yes, insane. They then looked into the girls online activities and they found that Libby had a presence and Abby's mum.

58:07 Anna didn't think she had a Facebook profile or anything like that, but found that she did. Yeah, and that she had been talking to people that Anna certainly didn't know on Facebook. Apparently there were over 1000 people who were interviewed who they'd had contact with at some point or another online. Yeah, 1000 different people. That's it, I guess probably. I mean, our era, I was not as savvy on it as they are like kind of thing that I guess I can actually get my head. Around it, yeah. And their friends are friends, and everyone's chatting with everyone.

58:40 And Snapchats are going here and everywhere. There's like a big web. Even though they're a small town of people, I think that would get there pretty quickly for sure. Yeah, I can. I can see. That, yeah, agreed. So most of the people who were interviewed gave voluntary DNA samples and were happy and were able to be eliminated fairly quickly. The investigation went silent until the 17th of July, which is when that composite, So between Feb and July, not much came out. Then in July of 2017, that's when they released that first composite sketch and they described the person as being heavy set, an older man with a bulbous nose and thin downturned lips.

59:23 He was between 5 foot 6 and 5 foot 10, weighing between 180 and 220 lbs, which is about 100 kilos. Yeah. It's, it's interesting then, you know, nothing else was released to the public. And they were hoping that by releasing these tiny little bits that it would be enough, that they'd get enough. I don't know they'd get enough information to be able. To find a lot of tips, but it wasn't then none of them were going places. I guess like it's yeah, I just don't understand the yeah. When was it they released then the the audio?

59:56 2019 I wasn't talking. Two years later, Jesus. Yes, two years later. Yeah, right. So what they released, where have I got that in my notes? What they released was the video, the full video of what? So Libby, to her absolute credit, what a hero of a child. Yes, she obviously had her mobile phone. Now I feel like she must. She and Abby must have felt very uncomfortable for her to actually, you know, because you can tell she's secretly record making this recording. It's not. She hasn't got her phone up.

1:00:28 Yeah. It's like jumped by her side. It's actually upside down. The original footage is upside down. Yeah, because she's holding onto it beside her leg as she's walking, as if she's just holding it, as if she's not recording. Like it's just holding. It holding her phone yeah and you can see bridge guy walking behind them and now in the video I think there's like I think in the video he takes maybe 2 1/2 steps or something in in what was released. What was released? Yeah. And because it turned out the video was like 40 odd seconds long and it's longer.

1:00:59 Than that, oh, it's longer than 40 seconds. Actually, a lot more that's never been released. Wow, so we don't even know it now. Police officers have spoken about it, the ones that have seen the full video. And the the way it's been spoken about is that these girls were terrified. Oh, yeah. And they like as in building up to what you see that before you see that what we have been released to. Police officers say it was the most terrifying footage I've ever seen. Like. The girls were terrified. Yeah.

1:01:26 So it's really interesting why they wouldn't just release all of that so we can get the full grasp of who this was. Yeah. Because I think if you got the lot, we'd maybe be able to make more of a definitive just like picture of who this is if you've met him in your life, like kind of thing, because there's potentially more that was spoken. Yeah, so when they first released the video, yeah, they release the perpetrator well saying or the alleged. They only released 3 words, the audio. They never released the video of it.

1:01:53 That's true. Yeah, it was just the audio of. It and it's very hard to hear because obviously Abby's holding it either down by your side or at one point, well, at the start they thought it was, you know, Pocket because there was no video. It was only audio, even though now we know there was video associated with it. And it basically is this man saying down the hill and they play that and they play it. And then people, they've sent the well, video slash audio off to the FBI and even Disney. Disney and NASA.

1:02:22 And NASA to try and clean it up a bit and they they were able to because when they re released that those 3 words it is slightly clearer and you can hear like very distinctly a male voice saying down the hill. I'll add it in here. I think it was only it wasn't actually that much later, but he then they, the police then released the video that's associated with that audio. And that gives a whole nother context. Yeah, At that time, they also release a little bit before the original audio where you can actually hear the perpetrator say or the alleged perpetrator say, Guys down the hill now this.

1:03:05 Chills me. Well, the thing with this bit is the art that really gets me because there's guys and it's kind of friendly. Well, it's very laid back, yeah. Very. It's not like guys. But there's a ripple in the, in the audio that I, I'm fairly certain there's more that's in there that we don't hear, we don't know. You can tell there's a cut because there's a. Real change in tone to then when the you get the down the hill. Yeah, it's a real graph. It's it's, it's dictating the down the hill. It's like down the hill, yeah.

1:03:36 Whereas the guys is like guys, yeah. It's just like I would be saying to. Just getting their attention. Yeah, I reckon between that guys, that's where this stuff happens that. Is. Terrifying, police have said is awful that the girls were terrified and they watching it. They feel awful for them and can't help them because then between that and then when he says down the hill, that's just sickening. We can't. Even. So and when they and you realize then of where they are, they're on the end of the bridge there where dead end, dead end.

1:04:08 But he tells them you're down the hill. And that's exactly where they get found is that they're down the hill, over the river and down further from there that this is the guy they're looking for because he's dictating where to go where they would not have otherwise gone. It's off the trail. Yep. And you can hear Libby in the the 43 second video that's released, you can hear the girls kind of going, but there's no trail down there. Like, where do we go now? You sort of hear them talking. But yeah.

1:04:35 So it's. And then then he comes in with the down the hill.

1:04:41 Yeah. So there's something that's going on between. Oh. It's it's just makes. More. I don't know it make it actually makes me feel sick because you think how those girls must have been feeling in that moment. They knew that this was not good. Well. Obviously, the fact that Libby had the wherewithal to pull out her phone and record it like she knew something bad was gonna happen. What an incredible young. Woman, the other thing is with that footage then of getting that footage of him moving, right, You watch him go across that bridge.

1:05:11 You can see in the footage, Libby behind, sorry, Abby behind Libby. You see her and you watch her and she's tentatively finding the next step. She looks terrified in her face. And I do believe that part, probably a good percentage of that is just literally where am I putting my feet? Because as we know, she hated being on that bridge. Libby was more confident. But you then see bridge guy behind her who's walking with a hand in his pocket across there. He's done it before. He feels comfortable on that bridge.

1:05:39 And as we said, only locals go on that bridge. He was a local. He knew the area. He knew he knew that bridge. Yeah. And so that's, I think that's what gets even more chilling for the people of the town of Delphi. Yeah. That this is someone that that lives amongst them. Yeah. Oh, oh, it's, it's terrifying. And then for the police to then say that in one of their press releases as well, like, it really did shake the community. Well, what what was awful was with one of the press conferences that were specifically asked by the journalists, should we be worried in the town of Delphi that there is someone out there who's murdered two children?

1:06:09 And they were like, no, no, no, no one's got anything to worry about. What? Wait, what? So what? This was a one off. How do you know? That how do you know that? Like you, I don't think it did what they thought they were trying to do by like, you know, don't panic the town. Yeah, it made people panic even more, I think. Because you're like, what? And now are they not taking this seriously? Yeah, this could be a serial killer. We don't even know. That's it and and why the FBI involved if it's not a serial killer like.

1:06:35 And that was that's what they were saying because it was like the FBI normally only get involved if it's things have happened across state lines. So like. It's all serial killer situation. Killers and So what? Why is? Why are they there? Why are they there? We still actually. Don't know that. No, we don't. Don't know why they were brought in so early or what was what was the go with that? No. Oh my gosh, where are we at? Do we want to talk about what we now know about what should happen? Just touch on a couple of of people who were looked at suspects.

1:07:04 Suspects. Let's do that because one that we should probably talk about first was the person they looked at first, which made sense entirely definitely because as we said, the girls bodies were found on private property. So whose property were they found on? OK, well they were found on this guy Ron Logan's property. Now his property is very, very large. He is well known in the town. Everyone knows who Ron Logan is. The bodies were found approximately about I think it was like, I want to say like was it 1400 feet?

1:07:33 So how many? I don't know how quick that meters. It wasn't that far from the home though. Basically it was a very walkable distance from his house, even though his property is very very large. It's less than 500 meters. Yeah, there we go. 500 meters from the house is where these bodies were found. So they obviously pull him in and have a talk to him. Now unfortunately Ron stupidly I guess he immediately lied and well he got his cousin to lie for him about where he was that day and what he got his cousin and him to say was that his cousin had driven him out for the day.

1:08:09 So he was with his cousin. Him being driven cause Ron doesn't have a license. Lost his license. He was a naughty person. So his cousin needed to drive him around. He was running around doing errands with his cousin. That was a lie. He was not doing that. So the immediately thought is, OK, well, if you're lying about where you were, there's something here we'll look into. It turns out the real reason he was lying there was not because he was did something to Libby and Abby. He was actually. It's video footage of him at the local tip.

1:08:38 Yeah, getting rid of stuff at the tip. Driven himself to the tip. And he didn't have a lot. He didn't have a lot he. Was going to get caught for that, yeah. So yeah, dickhead. And I think the time that he was at the tip kind of excluded him from being able to then get back, get into the woods, do something to Abby and Libby and yeah, kind of be done by then. And the other thing was that people have said too is like, okay, if it was him, why would he leave them on 500 meters from his house and then like come home and go about my day?

1:09:10 Yeah, you wouldn't. You wouldn't do that on your own property. Then you have dumped them somewhere else. Because he would have known those woods so well. Yeah, on the other side of the river, So not in your property. Nothing to do with you. That's of course you gonna get looked at if you put it on your property. Yeah. So he was, he was ruled out. People like to go back to look at him constantly, but he's been ruled out. He passed away in 2022. He did, too. So he's no longer alive. Yeah, the police did go pretty hard in looking at him.

1:09:37 They got a search warrant for his house. Yeah, he filled an entire police van with knives and other weapons from his home, So that's just an interesting thing. But he, he's a fire and he haunted like it was. I mean, you know. You're gonna have far more of that stuff living out that way. I I kind of can come at the same. Yeah, I'm not. Shocked. Like in the lifestyle, Yeah. Yeah, that's it. All right. Is our next person Anthony Shocks? Well, or shall we say Keegan? Klein, Keegan. Keegan. Keegan. Keegan, Keegan.

1:10:10 It's actually Keegan. Is that how you pronounce it, Keegan? OK. This guy. This guy. Wow. OK, So what we know is that so this keg and Klein had an online profile under the name of Anthony Shocks, who proclaimed to be. So Anthony Shocks was a very handsome, well known model, and he would befriend young girls and and basically coerce them into sending him nude pictures of themselves. Yeah. So we're talking Child Exploitation material. And it was later found out by the FBI that Kegan wasn't the only person who had access to this Anthony Schock's profile.

1:10:59 There was actually a fucking ring of these absolute fucking pieces of shit. Access to all sorts of other people, including his own dad, Tony. Yep. His dad, Tony. Oh my God. Oh, did you know they went to like some sex ring together? Yeah, together, my God father son in Vegas. Yeah, gross. They went and got blowjobs together. Oh yuck. Fucking disgusting. Gross. So the way that this Anthony Schock's profile had interacted with Libby was that Libby and Abby were having a sleepover at a girlfriend's house.

1:11:35 This girlfriend had an older sister who had a friend who was supposedly friends with Anthony Scholz. I know this is like really convoluted but this is how he. Well, actually, I think it was actually the, it was a different profile to Anthony Scholz that she was communicating with again. So I actually think it might have even been a Keegan Klein profile originally that she was talking with. Oh. Right. And then this, Keegan said. Oh, you should really talk with my other friend Anthony. So he was he was working it from all different angles.

1:12:06 Wowzes, I didn't. Yeah, there was all sorts of angles. That is even worse, Yeah. I mean, it's bad no matter what, but yeah. Yeah, so then Anthony Schott started communicating with Libby. And what the friends say after that sleepover is they assume that she just never. Contacted him, they had a couple of back and forth on the night and they would just assume that that was done and dusted with it because we don't know him but. He's hot, but what we do know now is that Libby was actually communicating with him quite frequently after that sleepover.

1:12:34 Including the day of them going missing. Exactly. The morning of like, Oh my God. Which means Abby was in the room too when that was happening. They were together. Well, they were together that whole time. Yeah. So don't know whether, I mean, we don't know, we don't know that, but possibly. I mean, they told each other everything. I'm I wouldn't be shocked if she did. Yeah, so the fact that there was all these interactions and obviously an interaction that happened on the morning that the girls went missing, this guy becomes a pretty serious time.

1:13:02 Yeah, a pretty serious suspect. The police go and have a look into what's going on with him and they find an untold amount of Child Exploitation material. We're not only talking, like, nudes of girls. And he says he prefers girls aged between 12 and 14.

1:13:25 It actually literally makes me feel sick. Yeah. He also had videos he had like, just the thought of that. I can't. I can't actually come out. It's so gross. It's so disgusting. It's known that he has shared some of this material and shared the Anthony Spark, Anthony Schock's profile so that other people can access the same material. It's it it I just can't. But in in this whole thing, the weirdest thing I find about this though is they find out about this this King Klein and the Anthony Schatz and all this but he nothing happens to him.

1:14:00 Nope. So. This they found that in 2017. 2017 They find this information out and they do now we don't know everything because again they have not released a hell of a lot to us. But for whatever reason, and I believe it's to do with the fact that his they can't place him in Delphi. He was his phone pings off of where he lives, which is not in Delphi, a couple of towns over sort of stuff. It is within distance to get to Delphi, but on that day he is placed in where he lives, not Delphi. So from what we've been told enough of is that the cops have cleared him, but he's not arrested for the, Yep, the untold amounts of child pornography at that point.

1:14:39 No, he has now been and he is now in jail. Three years later, three years later, he was arrested and his father and he is in jail for. He was he was convicted of 30 felonies and he was in jail for 40 years. Thank God. Thank God where he belongs, gross, human and his. Father fuck, he can rush. Yeah. And so just another I think any example of though with this with him is when you see him and what he physically looks like, I don't believe he looks like bridge guy. No agreed. Like there's elements but not no.

1:15:12 I don't. I think the upper body of him looks really different to. Bridge guy, yeah, I agree. So I don't believe I, I, I'm, I rule him out personally, I do I. Think he's a really bad dude? Yeah, but I don't think he was. Involved I think there's lots of parts of his life that are completely gross and like I get people looking at him closer, but I I think that the cops have done their due diligence here and they have ruled him out from this case. Yes. What else he's been involved with? I mean, the fact that he was convicted of 30 felonies says a lot.

1:15:44 Yep. Yep, and so he should be. So he should be, absolutely. He can run and help, yeah. Then we get to the person. Should we get to? Yeah, Well, yeah, we can. We can have a chat about Richard Allen. So Richard Allen, he wasn't on the cops radar. Well, it should have been, but wasn't until 2022. Yep. So now supposedly, well, not supposedly it is. What happened was back in 2017, Yep, when all this went down, apparently Richard Allen said to his wife. I was out at the bridge today. He. Had his day off work.

1:16:21 His wife said, well, you should go and let the cops know you were out there. You know, he goes, oh, I didn't see anything. Like I didn't see the girls or anything. But she's like, oh, you should let them know that you were out that way. So we've been off. Instead of going down to the police station, he just goes and out. So he worked at CVS, which is like a farm, like a really big pharmacy kind of store, chain store. Like in, in America, They're everywhere. So out the front of the CVS, he sees like a, like a Ranger.

1:16:47 Yeah, not a police officer. I think he was a a sheriff. No, I don't even know if it was a sheriff as such like conservation officer I want. To say yeah. Yeah, like part of that kind of career, but not exactly what you're looking for in terms of police. So especially if you're reporting something like that. So someone who would definitely report it, right? But so he went to this person and said, just so you know, like, I just want to let you know I was out there that day, right? So this guy's Oh yeah, taking his name and do it on the right.

1:17:14 Things are written down and filed it away with that stuff. But it got filed incorrectly, which because it wasn't actually a police officer, you know what I mean? Like I mean, I guess yeah, it was taken and put in wrong pile from coming from a very odd situation. Source. Yeah. So in this all of this. So years later, 2022, a volunteer, she was an ex secretary or an assistant to in the police force. She had volunteered a day of going through files for cold case kind of stuff, particularly this case.

1:17:46 She was going through the files picking out things. She kind of goes or anything we've missed, you know, like and she finds Richard Allen hasn't been looked at. This is something that's been buried in the US and not looked at through. All of the leads that had come in by phone by whatever. Yeah and cross checking them against police interviews yeah and she would write on the ones that have been cleared. Cleared on their files. Yeah, she came across this one and it nobody had ever. Nobody's checked.

1:18:11 Touched it, yeah. And she was like, oh, so immediately she was like, oh, this is odd. I need to escalate this. Yeah. So yeah, so the cops go out and bring him in for a chat in 2022. Now the interview is. You can see the video there's of the interview. Just before you get to that. Yeah, as he was leaving, so as the police come to his house to essentially arrest him. No, they didn't arrest him. They just asked him to come in for an interview. Yeah, he there is. I think one of the police officers says that, he said.

1:18:43 Oh well, it was probably time that they were gonna get me. Which he he now says, you know, because it was about time they interviewed me. They never spoke, but yeah, yeah, bit odd. Bit odd, yeah. Anyway, sorry, no, it's it's relevant. But yeah, so they bring him in for this chat. Now in this chat and the interview he openly says on that day he wore blue jeans, dark Navy or black jacket, literally wore what bridge guy was wearing and then gets uppity about it that they're accusing him of looking like bridge guy.

1:19:12 Like I just, I don't know where. He's coming from everyone in Delphi wears that. OK, but you were wearing that on the day that these girls went missing. Went missing. And were murdered and you're saying you were in that? Area wearing that exact thing, yeah. Yeah. So from that interview, they, he, they get to a point where they do arrest him. They do get a warrant to search his house. At his house, they find a spent bullet and a gun, which is then used as well where they look at the so basically at the crime scene between the two girls, they did find a spent bullet.

1:19:51 Now it wasn't one that had been fired out of the gun. It was that like as if someone had cocked it and the bullet had come out of the gun. And when that happens, certain markings occur. So they were able to line them up and they can do all their ballistic stuff and look, it's. Not junk science, but it's like it's questionable science. There's lots of like, varying opinions on whether or not that's right. It's not there's, it's not really based in hard evidence, but there's like a likelihood that, yeah, came from this gun.

1:20:19 It's not. I don't think they can say it. Within a certain. Certainty, whereas you can with a fired gun, a fired bullet, OK, it's a lot more definitive. But the fact that it hadn't been fired out of the barrel, yeah, and just had had gone into the barrel and not actually come, like, yeah, fired out meant that the markings aren't as unique. Yeah, but a number of experts have looked at it and do agree, Yep, that likelihood is that it came from that gun. Yeah. That he owns, Yes. So, yeah, bit of. So we've got some evidence being found in terms of physical evidence, the fact of what he wore that day that he puts himself there, you know, they arrest him and he is on trial.

1:20:58 Yep. He at the time absolutely deny, denies any of it that he was. It's not not part of it. His wife being interviewed in that documentary I find weird. So weird. I I can't get my head around her. I don't know what to think of. Her at all? I just think she wants to believe that her husband didn't do it. I get that. I think mentally she can't get her head around the fact that maybe he or that he, well, he's, he's in prison. So he perpetrated these crimes. Like because and I, you know, we've talked about this in other serial killer cases as well, where they're normal people out in society and they're going out and doing these horrific things and then they're coming home to their families at the end of the day.

1:21:43 And their families might not necessarily know anything different. No, that's the one thing that gets me with him. Is that OK, there's one one part of this is like that. We don't have anything on record of him ever doing anything else like this before or after this incident. Doesn't mean he hasn't. Correct. But nothing has been found, and no one like, well, there's only his wife that's speaking out. Other people really haven't spoken about him. The only bit of stuff you get from outsiders is that I really only spoke to his wife.

1:22:11 He was always very quiet. His wife was the chatty one. Yeah. Which happens in relationships. Very normal. Hello. My relationship. Oh, good. Yeah. So that can definitely be a thing. It's not out of the ordinary at all. So you're not kind of getting from the outside kind of going. Oh yeah. I've always thought he was weird or he had he touched my daughter inappropriately or, you know, you don't see AI don't know a pattern of behaviour in any way. So that that does get me with this, that someone like this does not go.

1:22:41 I mean, we're talking he would have been about 45 when this incident occurred. You don't get to 45 and murder 2 girls out of nowhere and then don't do anything again up for the next 5 years until you're arrested. Like, I don't know, that's the only part of this that I struggle with to kind of go. I agree, but also what don't we know? Totally. This is the thing. It's only we don't know in this case. And I'm like, maybe that has just never been released or? But this is where I feel like the judge has done the wrong.

1:23:13 Thing I agree. In that so all right so this goes to trial and well, probably even trial the the defence attorneys put in a submission. He's a bit weird. The defence attorney, yeah, they put in a submission like a 1200 page document of like other theories as to why it's not him right. Anyone else but him? Sort of. Situation Court appointed attorneys because because he couldn't afford an attorney and the court appointed 3 independent defence attorneys to him. Yeah. And the main guy? Yes, Strange, Very odd.

1:23:51 Very, very. Odd lived in his basement to work in this case. Like, very very strange. Recorded a lot of stuff like video recorded as if he was going to make his own doco about this. I just question a bit of him. Yeah, so. So he's submitted this huge manifesto memo, he calls it, but it's a manifesto to the courts around other alternatives to it being someone else other than Richard Allen. Now what the judge had turned around then and said was that he was not going to allow into the trial them to claim third party suspects, which I find really I find that challenging in that for appeals and things if you don't allow information like that to be used.

1:24:36 I get why the judge did that though, because there was no evidence, like there was no hard evidence. So I I understand that they wanted to create. A reasonable doubt, reasonable doubt, which I think then it narrows how they can do that. That's right. And then not lawful. Yeah, I I get that too. But you can't also just go out and be like, oh, Meg did it. Yeah, you've gotta have have evidence to build to. That and they didn't have enough evidence. So I also agree with why the judge said, well, no, you can't just put.

1:25:03 Point, point, point. Point to all these random people because there's no evidence to back up what you're. Saying no. And I feel like then I they, I mean, they know more than we know and entirely in terms of like the police, so. Hard to form an opinion I. Know, because I reckon the police obviously have very valid reasons that they've sealed up and gone. It's not XYZ. Yeah. And one in particular being this Odinism theory. Yeah, that there's reasons why they are it's not that which hasn't been made public for whatever reason yeah that the judge is aware of enclosed you know yeah, in the court situation that that I can get why the decision was made without us having the knowledge of things and I. But unfortunately that creates and it has created this massive storm of like podcasters and stuff going off.

1:25:50 And I've listened to some nuts job podcasts saying of like adamant theories on this Odinism or on Keegan Klein when there is enough to say that it didn't happen. Yes. Oh, for for sure, for sure. It's it's bizarre to me. So what what the Odin, I'm just gonna really quickly summarise what Yeah, yeah, that theory was. But this Odin report that they called it was basically they are saying that there was ritualistic activity detected in the way the girls were placed and there were sticks on top of their bodies.

1:26:21 And they're saying that those sticks were like. Laid in a way that were symbols. Ruins. Ruins, they're called. Yeah. So they're like ancient symbols that mean different things. Yeah. So it's a Norse Pagan religion, this Odinism. And they're saying that, like, intentional marks were left in blood on trees that were also ruined symbols. And apparently the FBI did look down this path and completely eliminated it. Like not this sort of. Thing because they named two people in that report being Brad Holder and Patrick Westfall.

1:26:54 Now Patrick Westfall is interviewed and he's quite, quite a normal ish kind of bloke, but yeah, yeah, you know. But so he talks about the fact that this N oh God, I'm going to get Ross North. Religion. Pagan is very based in nature. Yep, So yes, sticks and things and all that are used and this particularly this Brad holder who's who they sort of pin well, sort of highlighting on this. He posted online things with, you know, these sticks and things placed in, in in way in symbol format and you know, and then they're saying that then, oh, that's how Libby and Abby were placed with similar to a post that he made about something on Facebook.

1:27:35 But they've obviously done their due diligence because they've done this report and they've looked into it and so. Brad Holden meets a lot of criteria. I can understand why they looked into him. Sure, Abby was friends with Brad's son. Son. Yep. They he, he had a post on Facebook that was like that said something along the lines of friends help friends move bodies, yes, like one of those, you know, but. I'd post that about you exactly. You know, like, I mean, yeah, I'd totally bury Pete's body if you need me to.

1:28:02 Apparently there were odinous symbols made out of sticks on his social media account. Yeah, but he had a good alibi. He was at work and there's like CCTV footage of. Him, this is the thing, he's been eliminated. It's not him. He wasn't there. He's got like multiple people from his workplace. Yeah. Who placed him at work when this occurred? Yeah, exactly. So like, so, yeah, to keep pushing this is just a nightmare. Yeah. The judge's wording was that the that they could not introduce as it as evidence due to there being no Nexus to tie all the information to the crime or third party suspects.

1:28:34 Exactly. So they're trying to pull that out and appeal now as well and bring it back again. He's he's what comes so December 17th is they're due to submit all their documents. He's already submitted. He's submitting a $24,000 thousand dollar 24,000 word or page. It must be word, word, but word. But also like, in terms of all of the research and stuff that the lawyer did with that manifesto, he said that he reviewed almost 4 million pieces of paper, like pages. No, we didn't. That's what he reckons.

1:29:12 Oh, I'm sorry. Between him and the three people. So it's just, it's just. It was a 1200 page document with the Odinism. Document. But he's saying in order to come up with that, he reviewed 4 million pages of. OK, yeah, I know it's an absolute farce. Yeah, it's ridiculous. It's absolutely ridiculous. So, OK, where are we at now? We've basically got Richard Allen. He's in prison, so awaiting the trial. He's been sentenced or now we get to there, are we? Yeah, no, that's fine. I mean, so I think probably before that, yeah.

1:29:47 Awaiting the trial, though. He's still in prison. He didn't make bail rights, yes. He. Ended up going into solitary confinement. He was there for 1312 or 13 months in the lead up to the trial. For his own safety. For his own safety, absolutely. He murdered two young girls. Everyone in Delphi wanted to kill him, Jen. Park's gonna murder. Him. And so during the time that he was in solitary, he phones his wife and he says to her, I did it. And she's like, he did what? And he goes, I killed them. I killed Abby and Libby.

1:30:16 Yeah. And she's like, no, you didn't. You didn't. Don't say that. Yeah, and you need to stop talking now. Yeah. And he's like, no, I did it. I'm. I'm going to confess. I did it. And he apologizes to his wife and he. I'm so sorry. And she, she and then his defense attorneys come out and say, well, no, because he's been in solitary confinement. His mental health has deteriorated to the point where he'd say anything to get out of it. They get a human rights lawyer to come in and weigh in on it. And the human rights lawyer says that people shouldn't be in solitary for more than 15.

1:30:48 15 days? Is that apparently the Max? Well, Aaron Patterson's been so anyway, that's a whole different story. But, you know, I, I, whatever. He then is convicted and sentenced. They tried to like throw that out the confessions and things in the trial, but they didn't have it. They they, it was, it was able to be used in the in absolutely in the trial. Confessed on prison recorded numerous online more than. Once, yeah, it's all recorded. Like you can actually listen to them. Like it's, it's actually interesting to hear him confessing.

1:31:20 I believe him. Same when he says it. I'm convinced he did. Yeah. And I think he's, I mean, the cops know more than we know. And I think that they, they have put this together, there was 12 people in the jewelry who only, they only, what's the word I'm looking for? Convicted him? No. Talked like fairly deliberated over the outcome for like less than 20 hours yes. And then they came back just. Over a day wasn't. It Yeah, yeah, they came back with guilty on 4 counts. Now I went to look it up. They were guilty on the two counts of murder and two counts felony murder.

1:32:00 Yes, I didn't understand the difference between that. No, and I was, I didn't mean to look it up, sorry people. I will. I'll look it. But so there were 4 counts he was done for. So then they came to the sentencing. I'm just blown away by this. So he got 130. Years. It's the only time in that area I think that somebody has received a consecutive sentence. So he has to serve the 65 years for one girl. Yeah. And then serve the 65 years of the other like murder, which. He won't make. He won't make. But how amazing is that?

1:32:31 Because generally, like, I know in Australia, if you're convicted of two murders, you generally serve those sentences concurrently. Yeah. So it would only be 65 years, I mean. Not well. We don't get 65 years for life, though. The equivalent for life here is not that far that long. It's 25. Yeah. Yeah. So it's it's an, it was an extraordinary outcome and one that really sort of, I guess it made the people of Delphi feel safe and secure in, in that. Yeah. But then that you've got all of these other people who think he's in there and been convicted incorrectly.

1:33:03 Yeah. And so let's see where this appeal. See where the appeal goes. But I mean, he's a bit of a nut job. The lawyer I I feel like it might not. I think he's, I believe he's got new counsel for the appeal. No, he's got the same counsel. Oh, OK. Oh, that's interesting. Oh, yeah. And that's so they keep asking for extensions, like a week here, a week there. Yeah. But well, it's looking like next week is the deadline that they should have their submissions in. So I dare say we'll hear more in the new year in terms of an outcome of the appeal.

1:33:30 So we'll update when we get it. But yeah, I, I think we've got the guy. I, I feel I agree instinct, but I fully, fully agree. I mean, it's not not my decision to make, but no, no if it was. So easy. I think the reason this case resonated with so many people and the reason we're talking about it, I mean, not only the, you know, the sequence of events, but the fact that Libby was so brave in doing what she did and recording what she did to have that wherewithal as a 14 year old girl to do that. And, you know, that's led to the outcome that it has.

1:33:58 She's incredible. Yeah. You know, the community involvement, the fact that there's so many people in the community who came together, rallied to support this family at that time, Then this social media obsession. If you want to go down a really deep dive, go to Reddit. Yeah, on this. Case Oh, Reddit's mad on the. Insane. Yeah. It's actually insane. Yeah. And then the fact that there was such a massive delay between the murders and the arrest and then subsequent trial. Yeah. And why things weren't released and why we still to this day don't know everything.

1:34:28 I think that's really captured people's attention and there's no letting up of it. No, there's no letting up of. It no. I really hope one day they do fill us in a little bit more as to why that is the case, even if they don't release it, but just tell us why you're not releasing it, right? I don't know just one or the other either. I don't know if it was like inexperienced because the local county police officers, yeah, they don't really deal with murder. No. Which I I love the fact that they have all come in to work on this case together.

1:34:57 Yeah. But yeah. Did that mean that then things weren't being. I don't know. Whatever the way they should have been, I really don't know. No. Just a quick note on the families as well. You know, the dignity that they showed throughout this process cannot be, you know, discounted. Absolutely. They're incredible people and I'm so sorry for their loss. Absolutely. You know, it's so profound and we can't imagine it and but they have have really shown amazing character throughout this entire. Oh, God, yeah, no, they are amazing people and amazing families.

1:35:28 And Libby and Abby can credibly have, you know, credible girls because of who they're who raised them. And my heart goes out to their families. It's just awful. That should never be the outcome for a 13 and 14 year old. Never. That piece of shit can rot in jail. And so can Keegan Klein, Kagan. Kagan. Sorry, I don't give a shit. Keegan. Keegan all day. Keegan sounds way more bogan. So thank you everybody for joining us for our final episode for 2025. Stay tuned. We'll announce on social media what our first episode of 2026 will be.

1:36:00 I can't believe we're saying 2026. We will be releasing A Patreon episode over this time, so if you can't go for three weeks without hearing your besties, pop on over to Patreon. Because we will be releasing something over there. We thought we might do a little Christmas special with some ones. And if there's a particular topic you want us to talk about, please let us know. Send us a DM on the socials, that's probably the easiest way to reach us on Instagram. Just not TikTok. Yeah, not TikTok. We still haven't resolved that issue.

1:36:29 I don't know that it's ever gonna come back, but that's fine. We'll work it out. Whatever, It'll be OK. Merry Christmas to everyone. Merry Christmas. Thank you. For your support during 2025, we hope you all have a really safe and happy festive season. Yeah, whichever way you choose to celebrate and we look forward to a Bumper 2026. Bring on 2026 for two crime besties. It's gonna be a big one. Yeah, yeah. Merry Christmas and stay curious, crime besties. Bye.