Episode 72 - The Delphi Murders

0:14 Welcome back to Crime Besties to the last episode of 2025.

0:19 Feels like we should be at the end now, yeah?

0:21 What a year. What a year.

0:23 It's been amazing for two crime besties, that is for damn sure.

0:26 We have had a year. Yeah, it's been great.

0:30 Celebrate the good. Absolutely and we really

0:32 appreciate everyone's support. It's just it is actually so

0:35 overwhelming. It is.

0:36 I'm gonna start today then by doing our shout outs while.

0:39 We're talking. We've had a couple of new

0:40 patrons this week. We've got Eve Crawshaw and

0:43 Stephanie Golding. We've also had some coffees

0:46 bought for us by Naomi Peacock, who said that we've ruined all

0:49 other podcasts for her. Ruined them I love.

0:53 And she's like, she goes. I just love a bit of casual

0:56 crime on a Tuesday. Cash crime.

0:58 I love. Yeah.

1:00 And Kate Wright, who said she used to go to bed listening to

1:03 Hedley Thomas, now she goes to bed listening to our dulcet

1:05 tones and I'm like, I'm pretty sure Hedley's weight got a way

1:08 more soothing voice. So I feel like we might stutter

1:10 you awake when we laugh or something.

1:14 So sorry, Kate, but thank you very much for your support.

1:18 Like we might be keeping you awake.

1:19 Rather than sending this, Yeah, we're probably better.

1:22 Better for that, Yeah. If you need to stay awake for

1:25 any reason, Chuck Chuck us in your.

1:27 Ear writing down the. That's how I feel when I listen

1:30 to me. Oh, terrible.

1:33 Anyway, so you've had a bit of a week, You've had a really busy

1:36 week and we were just saying it is like a limp to the fine.

1:41 I feel like I'm limping even doesn't cut it.

1:43 I think I'm in the wheelchair. Drag one arm by arm like

1:47 commando crawling out. Of it we will make this.

1:50 We will make it. Yeah.

1:51 But you know what I do have for the people just to keep it on a

1:53 light note though I do have a Kyle story for everyone and we

1:56 can share that for the end of the year.

1:58 I think people will love that. Go.

2:00 I did tell you about this one. So everyone just Kyle, Alex a

2:06 lot. All for those who don't know.

2:07 Well, I shouldn't say Al. It's my son's.

2:09 He can he should take responsibility for that.

2:11 But he'll all be very proud of me.

2:13 So we're cleaning the tank the other week and it's always a an

2:16 it's it's just it's a lot trying to do this bloody tank, but cock

2:20 has grown like I can't believe how much he's grown.

2:22 So trying to get him out of the tank to clean it is quite the

2:26 thing. So an ordeal.

2:28 It's an ordeal. But so well, Brody was he was

2:31 struggling to get him out and I've and he just wasn't grabbing

2:34 him enough. He was being a bit too gentle

2:35 about it. And I'm like, I'll get him with

2:37 the net and then you like put your hand over him in the net,

2:39 you know, and we'll transfer him across.

2:41 And so we got him to the top of the tank.

2:43 And as Brody's like putting his hand on him, he leapt, took a

2:48 leap of faith off the tank, down the back of the cabinet that

2:55 hits the tank's on and like then scurried behind the tank of the

3:00 the cabinetry. Oh my God.

3:03 Oh, I was screaming. Brody was crying.

3:07 You were screaming for different reasons.

3:09 Very different reasons, but Oh my God.

3:10 And I'm like, I could just see his tail at the edge of the

3:12 cabinet, like, and I'm like, Oh my God.

3:14 So then I'm like, I need to like pull the cabinet out a bit more

3:16 to be able to get in there. Like because I'm realising that

3:19 I'm gonna have to touch. This.

3:21 Oh my God. So I'm like it was full chaos.

3:26 Like I cannot explain how chaotic.

3:28 Right, I feel like I've got a pretty good idea.

3:30 Oh my God, yuck. Got in there though like and I

3:33 picked that thing up and then quickly ran it, walked whatever

3:38 it plums it in the water. We touched him with your own

3:40 hands. I didn't realise that.

3:42 Oh, I touched him. But the thing was, I'm like, is

3:45 it dead or is it alive? Oh God, was it dead?

3:47 You know, it's like we're all like kind of like waiting for

3:49 him to move and he moved. So it's like.

3:51 Was he? Did it stress him out?

3:54 Oh, definitely. Because I said to, I said to

3:56 Brody, like, let's just give him a moment.

3:58 Yeah. And he's on the bucket, calm

4:01 with, with dog hair attached to him and shit.

4:03 Yeah, 'cause it's on the floor behind the cabinetry where I

4:05 have a dog with a lot of hair and a lot of hair that goes

4:07 behind that cabinetry. Kids and I don't often hug you

4:09 behind there. Oh God, it was just so bad.

4:13 It was so bad. So yeah, we got him back in and

4:16 we had, we had some quiet time before we then transferred him

4:18 very carefully back from that bucket to his home tank.

4:23 Which was now clean, yeah, and fresh.

4:26 Now this happened on a day when I was heading out that that

4:30 evening to get a memorial tattoo for my dad my first ever.

4:35 I had my flash of like lightning of like well this was occurring

4:38 that I'm like oh fuck I'm going to have to get 2 tattoos today.

4:43 You have to get a second memorial to do with Kyle.

4:47 You just know Brody would expect me to same.

4:50 Level. Is it same?

4:51 Same level? Yeah, Dad.

4:53 Yeah, Kyle. Yeah, yeah.

4:54 If you're getting one for your dad, yeah, clearly you're gonna

4:56 get one for good views. So I'm like, you better live

4:59 view. Do not want an axolotl tattooed

5:01 on me. You'd have to get it where this

5:05 like no one would. Say, Oh my God, Oh my God, that

5:09 wouldn't cut it for Brody. No, that's true.

5:11 It'd need to be, like, on your forehead or something.

5:16 Well, I'm glad Kyle survived. Well, Yeah, No, I am well.

5:19 For the sake of your. Skin.

5:21 Yeah. I'm glad Kyle survived.

5:23 Yeah. So another Kyle story.

5:26 I went over to your place last week or the week before, Yeah.

5:29 And when I got there, Brody was like, he's like, eh, I guess

5:32 what? I'll just ate his own poo.

5:37 I'm like, oh, oh, When I thought this thing couldn't be any more

5:41 disgusting, it turns out tops itself.

5:43 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'll just tell.

5:45 You I'm like, does he do that all the time?

5:47 And he's like, yeah. And touching him was like I

5:51 thought it would be, Oh. Oh, slimy.

5:54 Ring that again. Oh yuck yuck yuck yuck yuck

5:56 yuck. Push all my shit together.

5:58 I'm just. Gonna do this.

6:00 Yep, now I want to know what have you got on your Christmas

6:03 list? Oh, a nice new handbag.

6:07 Oh. OK, do you have like an idea in

6:09 mind of what you want? Yeah, I've bought it.

6:11 Oh, excellent. Yeah, I've.

6:15 Yeah, I've chosen a very nice, beautiful leather handbag.

6:18 Lovely. Yeah, just a small one, but it's

6:20 nice. I'm very happy.

6:21 Beautiful. Yes.

6:22 And I'm getting a new pair of like, I guess you call them

6:25 like, I guess they're kind of clog.

6:27 Yeah, right. Kind of shoe.

6:28 OK. That yeah, I'm really happy with

6:30 them. OK, they're not Crocs, are they

6:32 not Crocs? OK.

6:33 No, no, no. That's why I was like cloggish,

6:35 but not like that. Like, OK, nice slip on shoe.

6:38 Like I guess you'd call them a door shoe.

6:40 You know, you can just look at the door in them.

6:42 Yeah, that kind of stuff. Like, OK, yeah, yeah, nice

6:45 outside it. Love it, love it.

6:47 What about you? Well, I wanted some new earrings

6:50 and I sent a little. Few more holes to fill.

6:53 Yeah, that's right. I've got a lot on each side now.

6:57 I sent a link to the exact thing I wanted to produce a piece.

7:03 So I feel like if I'm disappointed on Christmas Day,

7:06 it's either because he's ignored my link and hasn't gotten me

7:10 earrings, yes, or he's gone rogue and not gotten me the ones

7:16 that I wanted or rogue. No, he's not like he's he's

7:20 been, he's been. He's pretty.

7:21 Yeah. Give.

7:22 Me a link. I'll follow the link.

7:23 Yeah, yeah. My only thing is I'm like would

7:25 they still have them in stock 'cause they had a really good

7:27 they were on like super special. Yeah, right.

7:29 So that's. Yeah.

7:31 And then it could. Go rogue.

7:32 It could go rogue. That's yeah, yeah.

7:36 We'll see. We'll see.

7:37 He did. He did well with the jewellery

7:39 he has bought me without me knowing in the past.

7:41 Sound OK with? Engagement ring.

7:43 Yeah. What else is He's bought me

7:45 earrings before and he's done very, very.

7:48 Well, OK, that's good. If he's, if they got in that

7:50 department and get what you like, yeah, you should be safe.

7:53 Yeah, fingers crossed for Christmas.

7:55 Earringers crossed. What a sport.

7:59 Brat. I love that.

8:00 But anyway, yeah. So that's exciting.

8:02 Yeah. Looking forward to that.

8:04 Can't wait. Yeah, it's exciting when you

8:06 think there might be things you might not, might unwrap that you

8:08 don't know what they are. Yeah, Nah, Nah.

8:11 The other thing is under the Christmas tree I've bought for

8:13 myself and wrapped and written on the card to Mum.

8:15 You're the best in the world from Oliver and Lucas.

8:20 Oh God, no. See, I hand it to them and say

8:21 that like it gets delivered to the house, whatever with their

8:23 name on the Oh, OK, that's a parcel for you guys to sort out.

8:27 Yeah. Oh, that's.

8:28 Cute. Oh, it always gets wrapped so

8:29 beautifully. I'm sure it.

8:30 Does I wouldn't let my kids wrap a present.

8:32 Not for someone else, I wouldn't, but it's kind of

8:34 lovely when they do it for me. But I would no.

8:36 If there's birthday parties and stuff, I'm like.

8:39 Get over. I'll.

8:40 I'll take care of that. It's fine.

8:41 Don't worry. I'll take care of it.

8:42 It's good. Yeah.

8:44 I love my wrapping paper. This year I had to go to a

8:46 special. Like I did a special trip.

8:48 Wow. To get my wrapping paper from a

8:50 shop that I wasn't otherwise planning on going to.

8:53 Yeah. So I just love it.

8:55 I went with a red and pink theme this year.

8:57 Nice. Yeah.

8:58 Yeah, mine's been dictated to me by whatever the variety was that

9:01 I got the you know how when you order from like Big W or

9:05 whatever? Oh yeah, a variety of choices.

9:06 Just sort of waiting to see whatever they put in the parcel

9:08 colours didn't at the time. I don't know.

9:09 Yeah. I've got to pick it up OK.

9:10 So I'm like, 'cause I liked the like the pack, like all the

9:13 design, you know, one's preferable than the other

9:16 probably. But the colour theme, OK.

9:18 But I was like, OK, I'll order 2 of that and we'll see what we

9:21 get out of that option. You both the same.

9:23 Well, I was actually hoping they didn't.

9:24 I I was kind of hoping they didn't match.

9:26 They match 'cause they're like a similar thing.

9:28 Oh, OK. But I'm like, all right, either

9:29 way, I'll be fine, I think. Yeah.

9:31 But we'll see. Yeah.

9:32 Just leaving it to the gods this year, yeah.

9:34 Well, you know what? If any year is the year for you

9:37 to do that, this is the year. Yeah, this is the year it is.

9:40 Yeah. All right.

9:41 Well, our kids are. I don't know about yours.

9:44 I'm sure they're exactly the same.

9:45 Limping towards the end of the. Year as well.

9:47 Big time. The young one, Our young ones

9:49 have athletics day today. Yeah, it's a beautiful day, but

9:52 like weather wise, yeah. But I'm like they are just so

9:54 exhausted. They are really exhausted, like,

9:57 yeah. And an emotional and it's hard,

9:59 yeah. Yeah, so let's hope they all get

10:01 through that and then one more week and then we're all on

10:04 school holidays and it's gonna be so.

10:07 It's gonna be great. I always find with the the

10:11 Christmas school holidays they are two weeks too long.

10:14 I feel like if they were only. Two weeks too short.

10:16 I feel like you could shut up. I feel like if they were four

10:19 weeks, I could easily get through that.

10:21 Yeah, right. But the those last two weeks

10:24 before they go back to school on that, we're all ready.

10:26 We're all ready for everything to go back to normal.

10:30 I could. I could go with them, go longer.

10:32 Of course you could hard like oh.

10:35 Yeah. I mean, I'm not juggling work.

10:37 And if they're off, I'm off then.

10:39 Exactly. Yeah, yeah, it's very different

10:41 for me with Yeah. So I'd live that all the time if

10:43 I could of. Course.

10:45 I got paid to, you know, home school.

10:47 I would, but I don't get paid. So they've got to go to school

10:50 and do that. Yeah, shut on, off so I can go

10:52 to. Work.

10:53 Go to work and earn money. All right.

10:55 Should we get into today's case? Mm hmm.

10:59 OK, so I'm hanged. Yeah.

11:00 I mean, you were just saying like this, this case has been a

11:02 bit of an obsession for you. Yeah, I'm not like recent,

11:05 recent, like when it sort of all happened, I was, I was in it.

11:09 There was a there's a podcast called we should say, I guess

11:11 we're doing the case of the Delphi murders as they're known

11:14 for Libby and Abby, Libby German and Abby, Abby Williams.

11:18 So I there's a podcast by the name of Down the Hill, which is

11:23 we'll get to why that is significant.

11:26 And they it's phenomenal. Have you ever listened to it?

11:28 It's a long form. Yeah.

11:30 So I was pretty engrossed in that as it was as it was being

11:32 released. At that time, there was way too

11:34 much of it to listen to in this week to.

11:36 Prepare for this. Way too much cast.

11:37 But I did listen to a couple of key episodes where I wasn't sort

11:40 of things I wanted to know a little bit more about because

11:42 it's really detailed. Yeah.

11:44 Well, and this is the thing with this case there, there is a lot

11:47 of detail and a lot of information, but at the same

11:49 time, there's a lot we don't know and has never been

11:51 released. That's right.

11:52 So it's a very, I find it a very interesting case for that

11:55 reason. And I think that's one of the

11:56 reasons that people are so interested in this case.

12:00 Too, yes, and I wonder whether that's purposeful for that in

12:04 some way. I don't know.

12:05 I have varying thought the ill interest.

12:08 The same. I I feel exactly the same.

12:10 Yeah. Yeah.

12:11 It's a, it's a really interesting one.

12:13 Yes, yes. So we're talking about the

12:17 murders of Liberty Rose Lynn German, who was born on the 27th

12:22 of December in 2002. She was known as Libby and she

12:26 was a really witty, tech savvy and brave girl.

12:30 That's the way her mum describes her.

12:32 Her mother's name is Carrie and her father's name is Derek.

12:36 They were together, They ended up they had two children

12:39 together. Libby had an older sister named

12:41 Kelsey, and they split up. Not long, I think after Libby

12:47 was born and both of them ended up spending some time in prison.

12:51 So Carrie spent time in prison, I think, for drug charges, and I

12:57 think similar for Derek. For Derek as well.

12:59 From what I can gather, yeah. So when both parents were in

13:03 prison, Derek's mum and dad, Becky and Mike, Paddy took

13:08 guardianship of the girls and raised them.

13:11 And they are the loveliest people, absolutely.

13:14 You can see them interviewed in documentaries, even on some

13:19 podcasts they and even just interviews with the police that

13:23 have been released that you can hear details from them.

13:26 They are gorgeous, gorgeous people.

13:29 Like just so lovely. And you can tell how heartbroken

13:34 they are that this happened to their granddaughter.

13:36 It's just. So, so incredibly tragic.

13:38 Absolutely. They really am.

13:40 I think we've in the scenario of a grandparent stepping up into

13:43 that role of parent. They've done it how it needed,

13:46 needs to be done, like kind of stuff.

13:48 They've hit every mark of getting it right.

13:49 The parents have been involved, you know, throughout things.

13:52 It's not like they dismissed them and we're like, you know,

13:54 and they then they've raised them.

13:55 It's all, it's been a joint effort, but the guardianship of

13:58 legally has come under the grandparents of both the girls,

14:01 which I mean, but they've done an incredible job raising them,

14:04 all four of their. Parents.

14:06 Yeah. That's it.

14:07 Absolutely. So at the time of Libby's

14:09 murder, Derek was actually living with, in the home.

14:12 Yeah. The, with his two daughters put

14:14 his shit together and stuff. Yeah, he was.

14:16 He really was starting to, yeah, turn his life around.

14:19 And, like, it would be really difficult coming out of prison

14:22 to then find work and get yourself back on your feet.

14:24 But that's what he was trying to do.

14:26 And a similar can be said for Carrie.

14:28 Yeah. She was actually living in

14:30 Kentucky at the time, so she wasn't living in Delphi or

14:35 anywhere around Delphi. I think she, I think they said

14:38 she was about 200 miles away or something like that.

14:41 Sounds about a while. Yeah.

14:43 You know, a few hours, like an hour or two.

14:45 Drive, I think, yeah. And did I say she lived in

14:49 Kentucky? Yeah, what did I say, Tucky?

14:52 It was definitely, Yeah, I just. Can't remember Tucky rang a bell

14:55 when you said it and I was like oh, was it not OK it?

14:57 Was it was so Abigail Joyce Williams was born on the 23rd of

15:01 June in 2003. She was known as Abby and she

15:05 was artistic, thoughtful and sporty.

15:08 According to her mum, she was an only child and lived with her

15:12 mum and a cat named Bongo Bongo Bongo.

15:15 So that's been the jungle. And she and her mum were their

15:20 own little family unit. Her mum raised her on her own.

15:23 And her mum is also just like, she seems like a very lovely,

15:29 definitely loving mother. Mm hmm.

15:31 She did everything she could for Abby to give Abby the life that

15:34 I think she didn't necessarily have as a child growing up.

15:38 Really fair to say. Yeah, and it's, you know, to her

15:42 testament that Abby grew into such AI mean, you know, she was

15:45 13 years old when she was murdered, but she was a really

15:49 lovely, like very valued member of the school community and the

15:54 and the broader. Community absolutely and the way

15:56 that their you know their friendship group speak about the

15:59 two of them because the two of them were particularly tight

16:02 best friends. You know it was kind of that,

16:04 you know as you get, you know the best friends within a group

16:06 of friends like kind of situation and the way that they

16:09 have friends talk about their friendship but also their

16:12 broader friendships. They were obviously girls that

16:14 were energetic, you know, involved in everything.

16:17 They literally were part of everything they could be.

16:20 They loved their sports, they loved their music.

16:21 They love, you know, all these various things they got involved

16:24 in. They were not shy, quiet kids,

16:27 but they were well, engaged and and productive.

16:31 Total teenagers. Yeah.

16:33 He. Was described as being more shy

16:34 than the leader. Yeah, I think she was maybe just

16:36 personality wise it wasn't. It wasn't like a no no happened

16:40 for her to be that way. No, just generally speaking, she

16:42 was quieter. Yeah.

16:44 Yeah, They bounced off each other well, apparently.

16:46 And. The fact that they both both

16:48 were involved in so many different things and really took

16:50 interest in each others interests.

16:52 I mean, I guess that's what besties do when you're 13 and 14

16:54 and that's your whole world, isn't it?

16:56 Your best friends? Yeah.

16:57 Your purse. Well.

16:57 Even they said like that they, they got on holidays together,

17:00 like Libby had gone with Abbye family on a holiday.

17:02 And I think that it was gonna go the other way the next summer

17:06 holidays kind of stuff, which 'cause they just come off for

17:08 summer holidays at this point or just about to sort of I believe.

17:12 Yeah. So they, they were sort of

17:13 talking already that, you know, since you went with, you know,

17:15 with, with Abby's, with Libby's. Sorry, Abby went with Libby's

17:18 family. So since you went with Libby's

17:20 family, Abby, you know, next summer holidays, we'll take

17:23 Libby with us and we'll do a holiday trip.

17:25 And it was, yeah, I mean, it was just that kind of inbuilt family

17:29 extending it out to having, you know, other people involved in

17:31 their lives, which were really solid people.

17:34 Yeah, that's it. Yeah.

17:35 And you know, you look at those families and you think, God, I'd

17:37 be happy for my kids to, you know, be friends with people

17:41 like that. Totally be as involved in in the

17:43 families. Yeah, people like that.

17:46 So I guess we should talk a little bit about Delphi and what

17:49 Delphi's like. So Delphi is a small town in

17:52 Indiana and it is tiny. 3000 people live there and the next

17:59 biggest city is Lafayette. So in order in Delphi, there's

18:03 almost nothing to do if you wanna go to the movies.

18:06 If you wanna go to like a bigger shopping centre, you have to

18:09 actually go to Lafayette, which is I think about a 30 odd minute

18:12 drive. Yeah, yeah. 3040 minute drive,

18:14 yeah. And so you think about what it

18:17 would be like to live in such a small community as a teenager

18:20 with not too much to do. There's like certain places that

18:24 teens always go to hang out and things that they do.

18:27 And one of the things is to go hiking.

18:30 It's AI mean Indiana. You know, you look at some of

18:32 the scenes when you're researching this case and yeah,

18:36 oh, it's a beautiful place. It's not somewhere that's ever

18:39 been on my radar to visit. But no, you look at it and you

18:41 think, oh, what a what a really lovely sort of.

18:45 Remote town? Yeah.

18:46 Yep, Yep. You.

18:47 Know it's like there's. Beautiful wooded areas and,

18:50 yeah, streams and lakes and things like your rivers.

18:52 Gorgeous. Yeah, yeah, beautiful.

18:54 But also though, when I think of like Indiana in general, I think

18:57 of like the middle, like the show, the middle I.

19:00 Love that show. Great.

19:02 No, you don't watch it. Oh, my God.

19:04 But yeah, I think of those sort of like, but genuine like

19:07 generous gender with families. Yeah.

19:08 Then that's what sort of it brings to mind to me of like

19:10 that she was the episode just watching recently or the middle

19:12 of where Child Protective Services come to their house,

19:15 you know, and they're stressing that they're gonna lose the

19:17 kids. And when she finally get pins

19:19 her down to say, you know, nobody is everything OK, you

19:21 know, because she thinks that's total chaos in their house.

19:23 And the woman says you have no idea what I see on a day-to-day.

19:26 Your family is so normal. You think you're insane, but you

19:30 are the stock standard. You are what we sure should all

19:32 aim to be, you know, like, yes, and I love that.

19:35 Like that's what I think of Indiana being too.

19:37 Just that, I don't know, just real genuine people.

19:40 Yeah, my favorite episode of the Middle is where they go on

19:44 holidays and they've got a neighbor coming to like, feed

19:47 the cat or something. And then she comes and she rings

19:49 them and she's like, Oh my God, your house has been burgled.

19:52 Yeah. And so they come home.

19:53 They're like, shit, shit. They come home.

19:54 They open the door. Yeah.

19:56 And the police are in there. The neighbors got the police and

19:58 they're in. They're like, ma'am, please just

19:59 let us know what's missing. We'll file the report and you

20:03 can like there's a voice over what she's thinking and she's

20:06 like, little did they know this is actually exactly how we left

20:09 our house and hasn't been robbed at all.

20:10 Have. To go along with like, Oh yeah,

20:12 no, this was not how we left it at all.

20:14 This is so messy. I just love it.

20:19 I just absolutely love it. So getting back to Delphi,

20:23 sorry, everyone knows everyone in the town, you know, even if

20:26 it's at a glance, you know, everyone sort of knows who's

20:29 who's there, who should be there and a little bit about the

20:33 background of most people. Yes, it's quite spread out as

20:36 well because there are some really massive rural properties

20:39 within the confines of. Delphi, yeah.

20:43 The Monon High Bridge is a local landmark.

20:48 It's on a on a very popular hiking trail.

20:51 It actually is the end of this particular hiking trail and.

20:55 Yeah, you literally can't. Like you can't get anywhere at

20:57 the end of it. You have to turn around and come

20:58 back again. That's right.

20:59 Yep. That's right.

21:00 So it's enough. So by the time you get to the

21:03 bridge, it's in a fairly secluded area of this hiking

21:06 trail. It The bridge was built in 1881

21:10 as a rail bridge. Yeah.

21:12 And it is about 65 to 70 foot feet off the ground, which is

21:17 like. 30. Meters, 2530 meters on the

21:20 ground and underneath the massive pool.

21:23 There's no guardrails or anything like that underneath.

21:26 It is like a river that that flows underneath, which is I

21:29 guess why the. There's a bridge, is there?

21:32 And it's blocked off at the at the end that the the trail leads

21:39 to, it's actually blocked off with a gate.

21:41 But so many teens and kids will climb that gate and actually

21:45 walk across. Yeah, the bridge, yes.

21:47 Now it is dilapidated. It hasn't been maintained.

21:51 There are rotting struts missing.

21:53 Struts. There's no rail on the side,

21:56 like it is literally just an open form.

21:58 I look at that, nothing my fucking.

22:00 Lord, there are like people that I've listened to, like

22:03 journalists who have gone out there, like looking at this,

22:06 that you go, that go, there's no fucking way I'd get on that

22:08 bridge. Yeah, like as an adult or

22:10 whatever, Like teenagers, they do it a little bit easier and.

22:13 It's a bit of a risk taking sort of thing and it is something

22:16 that they dare each other to do and.

22:18 And even in that, I guess it shows their personalities very

22:21 much so that Libby was pretty avid on it.

22:24 She loved going out onto that bridge, whereas Abby was not

22:27 counting so much. So she would be very hesitant,

22:29 like people would be surprised if she'd go out there.

22:31 She's like she, she was not keen on it at all.

22:34 And Abby's mum said, I mean, we're gonna get to this in a

22:36 minute, but Abby's mum saw that Abby was on that bridge and

22:39 she's like, I was gonna bloody kill her.

22:41 Like she knows she's not allowed to go on there.

22:43 Yeah. It's so dangerous.

22:46 Crazy. Yeah.

22:47 Yeah, I know you wouldn't get me on there.

22:48 No way, no. So in the US, so there are

22:52 allotted snow, daytime snow days that are allotted.

22:57 And if they're not used, the kids actually then get the and I

23:00 assume the teachers, yeah, then get those days as makeup days in

23:03 the summer. So that was.

23:05 Oh no, sorry, it was coming out of winter.

23:06 I'm coming Australia because it was February, wasn't.

23:08 It was coming out. Coming out of winter, so hadn't

23:10 used into spring. That's it.

23:12 They Yeah. So what happened is they had, I

23:16 think they ended up having 2 snow days that weren't used over

23:18 winter. Yeah.

23:19 And so coming into the spring months, the school I guess

23:23 decides on what day they can can use those days up.

23:26 Yeah. So they decided on this

23:27 particular Monday that it was going to be a student free day

23:30 at one of the make up snow days. Yeah.

23:31 And it turned out to be a particularly nice day on this

23:34 day, like really early, quite warm day.

23:36 So lovely. Lucky.

23:37 Skies sunny day. Yeah, the night before, the

23:41 girls decided to organize a sleepover at Libby's.

23:44 Not unusual. They did it all the time.

23:46 They slept at one another's houses all of the time, and

23:50 they'd spent the day playing softball in the backyard.

23:53 They did some watercolor painting and they watched a

23:55 movie. So again, just your typical day

23:59 and night leading in on the day of the incident, which was the

24:05 13th. I've just had a mental blank.

24:07 13th of February 2017. Oh my.

24:12 God on the 13th, Mike. So Mike, the dad who was living

24:17 with the grandparents and Libby at the time, and Kelsey, he made

24:20 them breakfast. And Kelsey being the older

24:24 sister, she could drive. Now, I think we've described how

24:27 remote Delphi is and in order to get anywhere, you kind of had to

24:31 drive. It's not like the girls could

24:33 have even to hop on your bike to ride.

24:35 I had a little too far, too far, yeah.

24:36 So they were wanting to do something.

24:38 They were probably bored knocking around at home and

24:40 they've done all the things they were going.

24:42 To do well, they were helping out Libby's grandma, doing some

24:45 filing and stuff for her, her business at the time when at

24:48 home, and they'd finished doing that.

24:49 So they were like, they'd slept in quite late and as you do on,

24:53 you know, day off, why not? But they, they, yeah, they've

24:55 kind of been doing all these filing things for, for the graph

24:58 for grandma and kind of going, well, what else can we do today?

25:00 And yeah, when Kelsey said she was heading out, they jumped at

25:02 the chance to kind of go, well, can you give us a ride somewhere

25:05 and we'll get outside? So yeah, she wasn't that keen to

25:08 take them though. Kelsey was like, they had been

25:10 asking me for like, days and hours.

25:13 Like, you know, they'd asked her the week before to take them

25:15 somewhere as well. And she was like, no, I'm not

25:17 doing it. Like how annoying.

25:18 Shut up. But on this particular day, she

25:21 was going to a boyfriend's house, which kind of went past

25:24 the, the nature of reserve where they, the girls wanted to be

25:28 dropped off at the hiking tracks.

25:29 So yeah, she was like, all right, come on in, then.

25:31 But she's like, I'm not picking you up, so you need to organize

25:33 somebody else to pick you up. Yeah.

25:35 And Libby asked her dad, Dad, would it be all right if you

25:39 picked me up? And he's like, Yep, got to run

25:40 some errands for grandma, and I'll probably be able to pick

25:44 you up about 3:00-ish. Yeah, Yeah.

25:46 So keep your phone on you. I'll.

25:48 Call you when I'm give you a call, yeah.

25:50 Libby had a phone Abby didn't yet.

25:52 Which I love that too. Almost like that butthole.

25:55 They just, yeah, good instant kids that went yeah.

25:58 And they're on the verge of that, You know, that next step.

26:01 Yeah, I can kind of see. I mean, we've got kids that are

26:05 approaching that now. And I'm like, I get it.

26:08 Yeah, I get. I love that she's been able to

26:09 hold out and like, yeah, even though her best friends got one.

26:12 Yeah, Abbys not not as interested, you know, like

26:14 which, you know, it's fine too. And they.

26:16 Yeah. So we know due to CCTV footage

26:21 from a car park that was sorry, I think it was a service station

26:24 that was across the road from where Kelsey dropped the girls

26:27 at the at the nature reserve. Yeah.

26:29 That she dropped them there at 1:49 PM on that afternoon.

26:33 Yeah. She stayed in her car until she

26:37 couldn't see them anymore. So the CCTV footage, I think you

26:39 can. You can't see the girls.

26:42 Like, it's not close enough to be able to see their faces or

26:44 anything, but they can tell it was definitely Kelsey's car.

26:46 Yeah. They get the two young girls get

26:49 out of the car, and Kelsey actually watches them go down

26:52 the track until she can't see them anymore.

26:54 Then she reverses out and drives off.

26:56 Yeah. The girls go down the Monon High

26:59 Bridge trail. As we said, it's fairly secluded

27:02 and a lot of the time I think only really locals knew about

27:07 this picture. It was tracked.

27:08 Easy to find. And it's this, when I looked at

27:10 the map of it as well, the start of it isn't near the road, No.

27:14 So it's not. There were plenty of other

27:15 trails and tracks, yeah. There's other options to go

27:18 down, yeah. Yeah, I feel like you would see

27:20 those first. And if you weren't from the

27:22 area, you'd. Go those those other tracks they

27:24 they say really only locals go there.

27:26 Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it.

27:29 Was about a 15 minute walk from like I think roughly the car

27:33 park area to where this moon on high bridge starts.

27:37 The trail starts. Yeah, Yeah.

27:38 So it's still a fairway in, you know, of of walking.

27:42 Yeah. To get to where you begin this

27:43 track. That's it.

27:44 Yeah. That's it now, because Libby had

27:46 her phone with her at about 2:07 PM she posted to Snapchat

27:53 photos. Now, first of all, how does a 14

27:57 year old take such an amazing photo?

27:59 This photo of is of Abby on the moon on hybrid Yeah and it is Oh

28:06 my God, it is such a cool photo. It's.

28:08 A really cool photo I imagine. I'm like you know exactly why

28:11 she posted it and so she should have.

28:12 It was great photo. It was such a good photo.

28:14 Yeah. Maybe we can pop that on our

28:16 socials, you reckon? Yep, Yep.

28:17 And this is when Abby's mum saw the photo on Snapchat and went,

28:21 Oh my God, when she gets home, I'm going to kill her.

28:23 She's like, this is she? No, she's not allowed on that

28:25 bridge. That would be the same.

28:27 Same. The other photo she posted was a

28:29 black and white photo of the bridge.

28:31 Bridge. Yeah.

28:32 Again, that was stunning. Yeah.

28:34 Like she's, she was obviously a really good photographer.

28:37 She had that sort of knack about it.

28:39 Yeah. Just the angle and whatever.

28:40 Yeah, I feel like if I took a photo of that, everyone.

28:42 Would be like shy. It's like a bridge.

28:43 Yeah, it's. A bridge, yeah.

28:45 Very artistic angles, whatever. Yeah.

28:48 So yes, the bridges dilapidated, but it just looked really rustic

28:54 and really cool in those photos. Yes.

28:55 So at 3:11 PM, Derek sent a message to Libby saying that he

29:00 was a couple of minutes away. So the girls kind of knew that

29:03 roughly 3:00 Derek was coming to pick them up.

29:06 Yeah. So they were responsible enough

29:08 that he was like, they won't be far from where we were from the

29:12 car park where we're gonna where I'm going.

29:13 Yeah, I'll be pulling up and if they're not there, they'll be

29:15 not far away, like, yeah. He arrived at 3:13 PM, and Abby

29:22 and Libby weren't there. Again.

29:23 He just assumed, OK, they're a couple of minutes away.

29:25 They can't be far. They know you know, They know

29:29 I'm coming. Yeah.

29:30 He waited a few minutes, and then he called Libby.

29:32 So he'd sent her a text message originally.

29:34 Then he's like, well, she's not here.

29:35 I'm bloody going to call her and see where she is.

29:37 Yeah. He didn't get an answer, so he

29:39 ended up getting out of his car and he started to walk down the

29:42 trail. Meanwhile also trying to call

29:46 her phone. Yeah.

29:47 And there's absolutely no sign of them.

29:49 I think he thought that by the time he got to the start of the

29:51 trail, they'd be there. And be.

29:53 Walking back and blog also. I'm sorry, that's track.

29:55 Of time or whatever. Yeah.

29:57 At 3:20 PM, Derek encountered Dan McCain.

30:01 So this was an older man who was walking along the trail.

30:05 Derek asked him if he'd seen the girls, and he said he hadn't see

30:10 them, seen them, but he'd seen a couple under the bridge making

30:14 out or what he thought they were making out.

30:17 And so he just ignored that and walked away because he's like,

30:20 whatever they were doing under there was none of my business.

30:24 So he said that was the only sort of unusual thing that he'd.

30:27 Seen. Yeah, right.

30:28 Yeah. At 3:30 Derek called Becky his

30:32 mum to see whether there was a bit of a mix up or something, or

30:35 the girls might have called her to pick them up earlier and she

30:38 just. Didn't know, yeah.

30:40 And Becky said no, like I, I see nothing to.

30:44 According to me, none of the plans have changed.

30:45 No, you will never know anything else up now.

30:48 Yeah. So Becky, I, I feel like she had

30:50 a pretty instant because. That was so responsible.

30:54 I think that this was so unusual that they weren't, she wasn't

30:58 answering her phone and that they weren't where they were

31:00 supposed to be. This was not a normal situation

31:03 for them. So I think it, yeah, it

31:05 heightened the thought process pretty quickly for her.

31:07 And I feel like it's probably worth mentioning as well that

31:10 the girls had done this hike hundreds of times.

31:12 Before they loved going there, they went there so many times.

31:15 That's yeah. And it's where all the local

31:16 teens would hang out. They'd go there with other

31:18 friends. It was just something they did

31:21 all the time. They were so familiar with the

31:23 area. The.

31:25 The actual moon on High Bridge, not quite.

31:27 As I say, Abby would hate, hate it going on it.

31:30 They didn't do that necessarily. But that area, they were out

31:33 there all the time doing, you know, trails.

31:34 Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so you know, what Becky

31:39 ended up doing was calling friends of their close

31:42 girlfriends of theirs to say, like, did you meet up with them?

31:44 Do you know where they might be? Have they called you?

31:47 They've been in contact. With you.

31:48 Because, you know, she might have thought, oh, they might

31:51 have decided to go and meet up for an ice cream or like, who

31:53 knows, You know, Yeah. Not that they were

31:55 irresponsible, but you know, teenagers, sometimes you can

31:58 kind of get caught up in your own shit.

31:59 Yeah, yeah. None of none of the friends had

32:03 heard from them, aside from the fact that one of them said, oh,

32:06 we did see a Snapchat. Yeah.

32:07 From Libby, Yeah. Earlier, like a couple of hours

32:10 earlier, yeah. Becky then called Kelsey Libbye,

32:14 oldest sister to say like, did you definitely drop them off or

32:17 have you picked them up? Did you make different

32:19 arrangements? Yeah.

32:20 And Kelsey was like, no, but she immediately got in her car and

32:24 went down, down there, down to see what was going on.

32:27 Yeah, by this stage, Becky also rang Mike, their grandfather

32:31 Libby and Kelsey's grandfather, and he came from home, from work

32:34 immediately and went to the went to the scene.

32:37 Yeah. And they were all, they all

32:39 started looking for them. Yeah.

32:41 In amongst all this, I think Becky realized like once they'd

32:46 all gotten down to the where the hike was starting from, Becky

32:51 was like, oh shit, we haven't actually called Abby's mom to

32:54 find out what's going on there. So to let her know or see if she

32:57 knows anything. Yes.

32:58 So Becky, Becky, sorry, Abby's mom was actually her name's

33:02 Anna. She was at work at the time.

33:04 And so Becky tried calling her phone, no answer.

33:07 Then Becky was like, well, I'll call the restaurant that she

33:11 works at. She worked as a bartender, I

33:14 think, and she, I don't know if she wasn't able to get in

33:19 contact with her. I'm not quite sure, but I think

33:21 Becky ended up going to the restaurant where where Abby's

33:25 mum worked and asked her, you know, and told her about the

33:28 situation. She's like, no, no.

33:30 But she says that her immediate feeling was they've lost track

33:34 of time. Maybe they got a bit lost or

33:37 went off on a trail that they didn't quite know and that, you

33:41 know, she would go and have everyone would go and have a

33:42 look for them. They'd eventually find them and

33:44 it'll be fine. Yeah, it'd be a bit of a non

33:46 issue. Yeah, I think there was like, I

33:48 think Becky out of all of them was potentially the one

33:50 thinking, OK, we know they're on the moon High Bridge.

33:52 And if one of them fell like, I think she was starting to get

33:56 that to that thought process of like that's a that's, that could

33:59 be. Shit, yeah, that's a very

34:01 serious thing. Yeah.

34:03 Yeah. So by this time, so yeah, as I

34:09 said, Mike left work and Cody, who was Libby's uncle, he also,

34:14 he'd actually only just come home from work, found out what

34:16 was going on, and he also joined.

34:18 Yes. So at this point it's about 5:00

34:19 PM. Derek, Becky, Kelsey, Mike and

34:23 Cody were all looking for the girls and Anna showed up about

34:26 20 minutes later. At that time Mikes like it's

34:30 starting to get dark. This is really SUS.

34:32 This is now like 2 almost 2 1/2 hours after the girls had said

34:36 they were. Gonna meet, yeah.

34:38 I'm really worried I'm calling the police.

34:40 Yeah, the police got there within half an hour.

34:43 So which I think is probably a pretty good response time given

34:47 the the distances that they had to come from.

34:50 Yes. And what they, what the police

34:55 initially suspected was that the girls had just gotten themselves

34:58 lost. They've gone off a trail and

35:00 they've gotten themselves. Maybe when I was rolled an ankle

35:02 and they're stuck somewhere, you know they.

35:04 Had to get their way out or get that bit out for themselves.

35:07 Yeah, they did think it was odd that Becky, that sorry that

35:11 Libby wasn't answering her phone.

35:12 Yeah, but it got also then got to the point where it was going

35:15 straight to voicemail. So they obviously, they kept

35:17 calling cool. The authorities arrived on the

35:21 scene at about 5:50 PM. And as I said, you know,

35:25 everyone thought that they were lost or somebody, something had

35:28 happened. So at this time as well, the

35:31 police did start to like maybe question the family members, not

35:35 in an official capacity by any stretch of the imagination, but

35:38 more to get information and see what the what type of

35:40 personalities the girls had. Were they risk takers?

35:43 Was this something that was out of the ordinary for them?

35:45 You know, trying to gather a bit of information?

35:47 Also the fact that they weren't able to give definitive times,

35:50 Yeah, like they were. So it's out from the police

35:52 perspective. They were like, what?

35:53 You don't even know what time you dropped them here.

35:55 Like you don't even know what time you got.

35:56 You got here to pick them up, like, which to me is normal.

35:58 Like they weren't clock watching on that day.

36:01 Of course not. So they were able to track all

36:03 those times by looking at phones of and then going, oh, I called

36:07 them at this time, so I must have arrived at this time.

36:09 And you know, so that's that's where they got that official

36:11 information from in the end. But at the time they're like, I

36:14 don't know, it was maybe like 1130 that we dropped them here,

36:16 but I don't know, it could have been 2.

36:18 Like. So that's where they were kind

36:19 of going. Well, we don't have a lot of

36:21 information. Yeah, that's definitive.

36:23 Yeah. That the cops were then going.

36:25 Well, we don't really know what we're looking for Years.

36:27 We don't know how long they've been here for.

36:28 Yes, that was hard at the beginning, which is not the

36:31 family's fault. I'm not saying that for their

36:32 fault, but yeah. But that kind of made a bit

36:35 trickier, I guess. I I guess so, yeah.

36:37 Yeah, for sure. The other perspective of this is

36:39 they brought in the fire brigade as well, just help search for

36:42 the girls. But that is a completely

36:45 voluntary role in the city, the town of Delphi, there is not

36:49 anyone paid to be fire services. So they all work full time jobs

36:55 and do this on the side it's. Like the CFA for US 100?

36:58 Percent, but that's all they have.

37:00 We have then attached that you have paid employees, you know,

37:03 out of, you know, a country fire authority situation.

37:06 Very true. Whereas here you and you might

37:08 have your volunteers who do have volunteers to pitch in, but this

37:12 was completely voluntary. So it all these people coming in

37:15 after work, working a full time, full time job to come and help

37:19 out and support. So yeah, it's makes it a bit

37:22 interesting. And I guess in a town like this

37:24 as well, everyone knew something was going on.

37:26 Yeah. Like.

37:26 The word got out real fast. The word did get out really

37:29 quickly. And so even people who weren't

37:31 associated with the Volunteer Fire authority, yeah, were

37:35 coming out and with their own torches and their own, you know,

37:39 mobile phones, yeah, walkie talkies and stuff to, to come

37:41 and search for the girls, which is.

37:43 Great, but that also comes with. Other risks, That's right.

37:46 But yeah, at this point you think, Oh yeah, of course, like

37:48 of course you would let everyone go and look for them because at

37:50 this point they're looking for girls who have gone crossing off

37:53 the park, the trails. Might be injured and we need

37:55 they need you to get to them and help them.

37:56 Right. They need the manpower to be

37:58 able to cover this vast, vast area in which they could

38:01 possibly be. Yeah.

38:03 So they keep going in terms of the search with all of these,

38:08 all of these people. Yeah, law enforcement are also

38:11 then trying Libby's phone to see where it last pinged.

38:15 And they they find that it's either been switched off or the

38:20 voicemails full and it goes straight to yeah, voicemail or

38:23 it's lost or, or it's like run out of battery.

38:26 Yeah, but it also like with the towers in the area, because

38:28 there weren't very many towers in the area.

38:31 The pinging of the phones and it will come into play a little bit

38:33 later on too. The ping of the phones is

38:36 interesting because there's only so many towers that can ping

38:39 off. Yeah.

38:39 So pinpointing where her her location is off of that is.

38:44 Actually quite difficult anyway, Yeah.

38:46 It's not like you're in metropolitan city where it could

38:49 be. You can really, really take

38:50 yourself very down to the Philly, pretty much a street

38:53 corner kind of situation. Absolutely.

38:55 It's not like that at all. Like, yeah, so by 6:00 PM, there

38:59 were over 100 local volunteers, including the fire department.

39:03 Yeah, the Department of Natural Resources and the the Carroll

39:08 County Sheriff's Department. And I believe they had called in

39:12 the state police as well at this.

39:15 Point Yes. So around midnight.

39:19 So these volunteers are searching from 6:00 PM to

39:22 midnight. Around midnight it the call is

39:25 made to call it off because. Or just postpone it.

39:27 Postpone. Yeah, Yeah.

39:28 Sorry, sorry. To postpone to sunlight because

39:31 it's a dangerous place to be. Yeah.

39:33 In the dark, when I say dangerous, it's not because of

39:37 human predators. It's undulating.

39:40 There's sticks and twigs and you know, anyone could have slipped

39:42 and broken an ankle or gotten themselves lost themselves.

39:46 And then you've got you're looking for volunteers who are

39:48 looking. For people adding to your

39:50 getting 2 numbers of yeah. Mike Libby's grandfather said

39:54 that he was actually a little bit relieved when this happened

39:57 in a way because he actually felt so responsible for all of

40:00 the people who were out there, Yeah, looking for his

40:02 granddaughter, that he he was kind of relieved that the safety

40:06 of those people were then was now considered, although he was

40:09 so obviously so desperate to find Libby.

40:12 Yeah, some people are really annoyed that this got this

40:14 happened. It was it was called off at that

40:16 point or postponed at that point.

40:18 I can see both sides. I can understand as a family

40:20 member, I'd be like, I wouldn't want to stop booking, I've got

40:22 to find them. But at the same time I

40:23 completely understand the decision that was made though.

40:26 Yeah, with a level head I go, yeah, it was the right decision

40:29 to make and it didn't change, wouldn't have changed the

40:32 outcome, unfortunately. It might have changed crime

40:35 scene but we don't know much. We don't know.

40:37 So Becky and Mike and I think Cody and Derek, they all stayed

40:43 at the site in the car park. Yeah.

40:46 Overnight. And hoping they just walk out

40:48 somewhere. That's it.

40:49 Yeah. Just what?

40:50 Of course, I would do the exact same thing.

40:52 You couldn't take me away from there.

40:53 Nope. So at daylight, at sunlight,

40:56 which was about 8:15 the next morning, so it must have still

40:59 been. Winter, you know.

41:01 When the the sun's rising a little bit later.

41:03 So this is now on the 14th of February.

41:06 Yeah. The search teams were kind of

41:08 much more organized. And overnight, the Police

41:11 Department had been able to put into place a little bit of a, a

41:15 plan of how they were going to search the next morning.

41:17 And so they had a get, they had more than 100 volunteers the

41:21 next morning, and they put them into teams of roughly 10 people.

41:24 And they gave them areas in which to search.

41:27 Yeah. And so it was a far more

41:28 methodical way. Yeah.

41:30 And. Yeah.

41:32 And. Really coordinated.

41:34 Coordinated, which you know. How that's a good thing?

41:37 I mean, yeah, yeah, they did that correctly, absolutely.

41:40 Yeah. So the next day, so this is the

41:44 February the 14th, a volunteer is out looking and he finds a

41:50 black Nike shoe. Yeah.

41:53 Now Kelsey overhears, Kelsey Libby's older sister overhears

41:57 this volunteer saying, hey, I've found something.

41:59 I've found something. It's a black Nike shoe.

42:02 Because of the information that the police had gathered the day

42:06 before, they knew what the girls were wearing when they

42:09 disappeared, and Kelsey knew immediately that that black Nike

42:14 shoe belonged to Libby. Can you imagine how that that

42:17 would feel in that moment? Yeah, but then I find this

42:20 really hard then, because obviously they find what they

42:23 find and the information is filtered to the grandparents and

42:28 and and parents that they've found the girls and that they

42:34 get told they've been found. Can you imagine the excitement

42:40 that you feel of Oh my God, thank God they've been found,

42:44 but then realizing. Have you heard Becky's account

42:47 of this? Yeah.

42:48 It's sickening. It's sickening.

42:49 Oh, sorry, my heart broke. Mike said that as soon as he

42:54 heard that, he knew. He knew.

42:55 Yeah, he understood what that meant.

42:57 He understood. But she and I can understand

42:59 that because you want that desperately.

43:01 Oh, thank God they're being found.

43:02 They're fine. Like, you know, that's.

43:04 Where your head goes. You want to go there?

43:07 Because the the other way she probably Becky probably couldn't

43:10 even fathom that there was any other outcome.

43:13 And the fact that, you know, they've been missing for less

43:16 than 24 hours that you kind of go, OK, yeah, they'll be hungry

43:20 and they'll be thirsty, but they'll be, they'll be alive.

43:23 Like if you've been lost, yeah, it might have a broken leg

43:26 because you've fallen. That's why they're all dealable

43:28 things. What they found were the

43:33 deceased remains of Abby and Libby.

43:37 And as you said, this information had sort of filtered

43:40 back up to the top of the car park, which is where Becky was

43:43 sort of waiting. She'd finished her area, so she

43:46 was just coming back to the post to kind of go give me another

43:48 area to start searching, yeah. And her sister, Becky's sister,

43:51 was there. Yeah.

43:52 And she went over to her sister and said, Oh my God, did you

43:56 hear? They found the girls.

43:57 And her sister said to her, yeah, they're dead.

44:01 Oh my God. Oh, it would just be awful.

44:08 And she was like, no, no, I, I don't believe you.

44:11 Like she was in absolute denial. Not again.

44:13 You would. You know, that's, oh God, just

44:16 awful. Awful.

44:17 It's just horrible. So the bodies were found on a

44:20 private property? Yeah, which was on the north

44:22 side of the Creek. That run ran under the Monongaho

44:25 Bridge. Basically where the bridge is,

44:27 you'd have to go down off the bridge, over the river and down

44:31 a little further and that's where they were found.

44:33 That's right. So yeah, other side of the river

44:35 about a kilometer and 1/2 from the bridge.

44:38 So yeah, you know, a fair distance.

44:39 So it was far enough that they couldn't easily be seen from the

44:43 bridge. No, it was.

44:45 Yeah, they were, they were semi hidden in that respect.

44:48 Yeah, it was quite wooded too. Yeah, in the area, yeah, very

44:50 densely wooded area. Yeah.

44:53 All right, so the FBI immediately become involved at

44:56 this point. Yes.

44:58 They worked with the Indiana State Police to establish and

45:01 process the crime scene. However, like lots of things

45:04 here, I just feel like we don't know whether things were missed

45:09 or whether they just haven't been communicated publicly.

45:12 And I feel like there's probably a bit of both of those things

45:15 going on. Do you feel like that too?

45:17 I'm actually veering more on the side of just not released, OK,

45:22 But also the fact that, OK, So what we're dealing with here is

45:25 a crime scene outdoors, Yep, where there's been search and

45:28 rescue stomping through and looking, we're dealing with just

45:32 general outdoor elements. Well, also two Dr. The reason so

45:36 once this once Libby's shoe was found, what alerted that

45:40 particular searcher to then look was because they were two Dr.

45:44 Like, you know, maybe 10 or 15 meters away from like really

45:48 close. Yeah.

45:49 And he's like, oh, what are they doing?

45:50 And that made him walk over there.

45:52 And that's when he found their body.

45:53 Yes. So yes, wildlife has been

45:55 interfering. This is it.

45:56 I think so within you know, within 24 hours this site has

46:00 been, you know, potentially already contaminated, not

46:07 intentionally by any means. So how how you then do like, you

46:10 know, process that crime scene is challenging in itself.

46:14 So I think between that and then the way this, I think the fact

46:18 there was state, there was county, federal all involved too

46:24 they I think they elements of it were done very well and elements

46:28 of it weren't. Yeah, I find it very interesting

46:30 because I mean, we know a lot more now than what they did in

46:34 the public did in 2017. Even in 2024, most of this stuff

46:38 came out. So, yeah, it's only recent that

46:40 we've we've been able to attain a lot of the information in

46:43 relation to this case. Yeah.

46:45 They never released a cause of death.

46:46 They never released what the bodies, what the state of the

46:51 body. So a lot of assumptions made

46:53 around that and one of them horse.

46:54 Assumptions were made because they were giving out the

46:56 information. No.

46:57 People are like, of course, I feel like it's human nature to

47:00 then speculate on what happened. Well, it's because they knew

47:02 some information, but not all the information.

47:05 It was when they were like planning like the girl's

47:06 funerals like that, that that one got me when like Becky was

47:10 told by like the funeral director, like, you know, like,

47:13 what do you want to bury her in? And but you'll need to have can

47:16 you bring a scarf? And she was like a scarf.

47:19 Like she never wore scarf really.

47:21 Like, why would she need a scarf?

47:22 And it dawned on her because she'd never been told anything

47:25 about how she had passed away or any of those things, that it

47:28 wasn't until that point that she was like, OK, so there must have

47:32 been some damage to her neck. And therefore that's why they're

47:36 saying bring a scarf. I can understand the police not

47:39 releasing that information to the families until they've

47:41 interviewed them, yes. And excluded them as possible

47:44 suspects. Yeah, I can understand that.

47:46 But that had been done. That had been done, and they

47:48 still didn't tell. They have a right to know that

47:51 stuff and not to say share on a podcast or to share on a on a,

47:55 you know, media, you know, on a documentary or whatever, but at

47:57 least for them to know for her to like sit in that that

47:59 documentary that I heard her say that in the ego to get to that

48:03 point who have not have those and that knowledge was that's.

48:05 Heartbreaking. Oh, and to find it out that.

48:07 That way Oh. Gosh.

48:09 No. Oh.

48:10 It's just awful. It really is.

48:12 Really is. So February 15th, the following

48:16 day is a very crucial part of this.

48:19 They do release that smidgen of information to the public that

48:24 basically. And they don't, again, they

48:26 don't give a lot of context to it.

48:27 So they don't even say where they've found this from.

48:29 Yeah, we can tell you where they found it from because we found

48:32 it later. Yeah.

48:32 So just putting them into context at that press

48:34 conference. It was it was put out to the the

48:39 community, this grainy image. A still photo.

48:43 A still photo. So the information of the fact

48:46 that that came from Libby's phone that she had recorded off

48:49 of that on the bridge that day, you don't know any of that at

48:52 this time, but we all know that. Well, people were saying like,

48:55 was it a trail camera? Was it, you know, had someone

48:58 set up a trail camera to catch deer or yes, something like

49:01 that, and nobody really knew. That was and why this guy was

49:04 like being, you know, looked at because obviously there's a big

49:07 difference between it coming off of Libby's phone that she's

49:10 recorded him on to, you know, the fact that it's come off of a

49:13 trail camera, some random person.

49:15 Walking along the bridge. You know, so anyway, this grainy

49:18 image is released to the public of this man on the Moon High

49:21 Bridge walking along with his hand in his pocket.

49:25 And it's sort of just it's, you don't can't really see facial

49:28 features. No, he's kind of looking down.

49:29 And down. Yeah, and it seems to maybe even

49:32 how to have a hat on. Maybe.

49:34 Really. Tell it's so.

49:35 Grainy, Yeah. So this image when it was

49:37 released out, I sparked because it was so little information.

49:42 It meant that there's the the armchair detectives out there

49:45 did go a little bit nuts on this and they did like pull this

49:47 apart and try and like enhance it and get more information

49:50 because the police weren't giving it.

49:52 There was some talk of like that in his pocket.

49:56 Potentially there was a gun you can see.

49:58 The outline of. The outline of a gun.

50:00 I can, sort of. I can.

50:01 Sort of see where they're. Coming at anything, it could

50:03 have been like the corner of a mobile phone sticking out.

50:06 Yeah. Like, we just don't know.

50:09 No. And there's no way to

50:10 definitively know. No.

50:13 He's wearing blue jeans, a blue or black sort of like jacket.

50:18 Yeah, jacket. There's not a lot of other

50:21 identifying information there. Sort of get, you know, hit the

50:24 bulk of his build like kind of thing and he's yeah.

50:27 But even as they they've said, they said at the press

50:29 conference, remember that he's, well, that's maybe later when

50:32 they do the image of the video. But you know, this, the way he's

50:36 standing, he's walking on a bridge where there's missing

50:39 planks. Yeah.

50:40 So you can't even get an idea of he's getting a language or, you

50:43 know, or anything like that. But yeah, the press conferences

50:47 in all of this are all very interesting, particularly just

50:52 trying to get who it was, the main guy that spoke at them, the

50:55 name of him. It will come to me.

50:58 Which guy? The police officer, the he was,

51:02 he's the head of the state, the Superintendent for the state.

51:06 I know. So do I know somewhere he's

51:09 written down in my notes here. Same.

51:12 So he speaks at most of them and he's very interesting the way he

51:15 speaks. Superintendent Doug Carter.

51:19 I've literally. Seen it as soon as he said,

51:20 yeah, Superintendent Doug Carter.

51:22 Yeah, he's. The way he speaks is very

51:23 dramatic, very poignant. It's also very like.

51:27 Gaudy. Yes, and that's this is the

51:29 thing. People have pulled apart his

51:31 speech as to whether or not there's purpose behind how we

51:35 talk. Well, I think this is a very

51:36 interesting tact that people have taken.

51:38 Yeah. Like they, they're trying to

51:40 read in between the lines and they think he's got these like

51:43 messages that he's trying to get through by.

51:45 It's not. Saying anything and.

51:47 And I think that's, I think that's something that law

51:49 enforcement can learn from this case, is that if you don't give

51:54 the public a enough, they'll find it.

51:56 They'll find it. Yeah.

51:57 Or they'll either find it and it'll be maybe down the right

52:01 path, but it may not be as well because there is a whole host of

52:05 different theories that have come from this.

52:07 Yeah. And a lot of them are just work.

52:10 Because one of them, one of these press conferences, and

52:12 again, I think it might have been the next one where they

52:13 released the video. Yeah.

52:14 He spoke in that press conference about you may even be

52:18 in this room, who we're looking for, you know, and looked and,

52:20 you know, and everyone's like kind of going.

52:22 Where is it good? All of the police officers in

52:24 that room, Have you seen that? Response.

52:25 Same spot, same spot. They'll move and.

52:27 Look, and then everyone's like, was that coordinated?

52:29 Are they actually looking at a person?

52:30 Do they know who they're looking for?

52:31 What's going on? Is it someone in this room?

52:33 And everyone's like, fuck yeah, like how freaky.

52:37 So dramatic. Like what was the point to that

52:40 that Was there a point to it or was it just coincidence that

52:42 they all did that, I feel like. I feel like they wanted people

52:46 to think they knew more than they knew.

52:47 Yeah. And yeah, I, I just, and maybe

52:52 to scare people out, maybe because, because they also said

52:55 in that in that press conference, we've either

52:57 interviewed you or someone very close to you.

53:00 Yeah. Wish they hadn't.

53:01 They hadn't, but well, yes. And so it's, yeah, I think they

53:08 were trying to shake the tree. Yeah.

53:10 See what came loose out of that? Didn't work, no.

53:14 At all. At all.

53:15 Yeah, interesting. But yeah, so that that grainy

53:18 image was released on February 15th.

53:22 It was. It was a little while later they

53:24 did then release a sketch of. Not yeah, not very long after

53:30 they released the first sketch. So the sketch that they released

53:33 of this person was supposedly it, that they said at the press

53:36 conference, this is the man that was on the bridge.

53:39 This is the man we're looking for.

53:40 They don't even like, say we just want to speak to them.

53:42 He's now the suspect. This is the like, if everyone's

53:46 a bit like the bridge, they called him Bridge Guy pretty

53:48 quickly after the first image being released.

53:49 So like, Bridge Guy is the man we're wanting for this.

53:53 It was really definitive that, you know, we've decided that

53:57 that's him. Yeah.

53:58 Now we've just got to find him. Yeah.

53:59 And he's the image of his face. Yeah.

54:02 Now, sketch imaging is so interesting because it's, this

54:06 is the image came from a person who had seen him come on or off

54:10 the bridge. I think you actually saw him go

54:12 in and out. In and out.

54:13 Yeah. So he had seen him twice.

54:15 But at the time, you don't know that this is a person you need

54:17 to be looking at. This is a perfect stranger who

54:19 Then you go, oh, yeah, I remember seeing a guy wearing

54:22 that sort of gear at that place. So then go and sit down with a

54:26 cop and describe someone you've never met before in your life

54:29 and glanced at in a moment. I mean, how accurate could you

54:33 be? Yeah, but even.

54:34 And then describing it well enough to get someone to draw

54:37 it. I don't know.

54:39 I mean, I get the idea of like sketch images.

54:41 I meant to be like, hey, my friend looks somewhat like that

54:46 and he acted weird that day and he's been talking about Libby

54:51 and Abby or non-stop since it happened and like, you know what

54:54 I mean? Like, OK, put the piece of

54:56 pieces of puzzle together, you know, with multiple other pieces

54:59 of evidence. It's not to kind of go, you

55:01 know? Oh, yeah.

55:02 Walk down the street the day and I saw a guy look just like him.

55:04 That's him. That's him.

55:05 Yeah. You've never seen him before in

55:07 your life. Don't know anything about him.

55:08 Exactly. So sketch imaging, like putting

55:11 it out to the public like that, I think is a really false

55:13 impression of how much we know about this person.

55:16 Well. I, I think you're 100% right.

55:19 It's, it's an, it's a very interesting choice, but I think

55:22 at the time as well, the police had nothing.

55:24 No, this is it so. Well, well, they they did, but

55:27 they didn't want to release the other stuff at this point, which

55:29 I. Still don't know why, but

55:31 anyway, same, yeah. Obviously that first line of

55:34 questioning is family. They eliminated all of the

55:36 family. Then the given the nature of

55:39 what we now know is the public. But at the time, no one knew

55:42 that there was possibility that there was a sexual element to

55:45 this crime. Because the girls bodies were

55:47 found naked, their underwear was one pair of their underwear was

55:51 found to the other person's underwear wasn't they believed

55:54 wearing. Each other's clothes of what

55:55 they were wearing. Yeah, they, their clothes had

55:58 been swapped so yeah. And, and they were partially

56:00 undressed. They hadn't been fully redressed

56:02 so. We should mention too in all of

56:04 that. So what we're talking about here

56:06 is you know, where they've exited the the bridge and gone,

56:10 you know, kilometre down the path still right from where they

56:12 were from where. So we're talking there.

56:14 There was a video the sorry the the photos that she posted even

56:17 were 207. Derek arrived at the Moon High

56:21 Bridge Trail at 3:15-ish. 3 three O 3 I think. 313, yeah, so

56:27 315 ish, let's call it. So you're talking an hour

56:30 between posting that photo where everything's fun and great

56:34 because it's a beautiful photo to Derek arriving and no answer

56:37 of her mobile phone talking. Maybe an hour, right.

56:40 So but also then bringing into the mix of that this guy who has

56:43 seen the bridge guy exiting the trail, which I believe was

56:47 around about, it was before 3:00, I want to say.

56:51 So it was like closer to five to three sort of stuff.

56:55 So we're talking less than an hour where we're talking,

56:59 clothes have been swapped, people have been murdered.

57:02 They've walked kilometre down further again from that bridge,

57:04 a 15 minute walk from the bridge trail back to that park.

57:09 Path. It is like literally in Bush.

57:11 No, we don't know which car park he could have he came to.

57:13 No, no, I mean, I mean the girls like walking from the Monon High

57:16 Bridge, there's no track to where they were then found.

57:19 No, literally just in Bush. Yes, even walking that yes is

57:23 not the same as walking along a path for 1 1/2 kilometre.

57:26 No. So that's more time.

57:29 Timeline is tight, very like it's there's a lot that's going

57:32 on in a short space of time. Yeah, yeah.

57:35 The police then were investigating the 12 known sex

57:38 offenders who were living in Delphi at the time.

57:40 Yeah. Then there were hundreds more in

57:43 the surrounding city. So I'm talking Lafayette and

57:45 then like in the greater Peru area when?

57:48 Those these sort of things get looked at like that.

57:50 I mean, we've said at previous cases, it always blows my mind

57:53 just how many are in a small space within these things.

57:57 But also then broader, yes, insane.

57:59 They then looked into the girls online activities and they found

58:03 that Libby had a presence and Abby's mum.

58:07 Anna didn't think she had a Facebook profile or anything

58:09 like that, but found that she did.

58:11 Yeah, and that she had been talking to people that Anna

58:15 certainly didn't know on Facebook.

58:18 Apparently there were over 1000 people who were interviewed who

58:23 they'd had contact with at some point or another online.

58:27 Yeah, 1000 different people. That's it, I guess probably.

58:30 I mean, our era, I was not as savvy on it as they are like

58:35 kind of thing that I guess I can actually get my head.

58:36 Around it, yeah. And their friends are friends,

58:38 and everyone's chatting with everyone.

58:40 And Snapchats are going here and everywhere.

58:41 There's like a big web. Even though they're a small town

58:44 of people, I think that would get there pretty quickly for

58:47 sure. Yeah, I can.

58:48 I can see. That, yeah, agreed.

58:50 So most of the people who were interviewed gave voluntary DNA

58:53 samples and were happy and were able to be eliminated fairly

58:57 quickly. The investigation went silent

59:02 until the 17th of July, which is when that composite, So between

59:07 Feb and July, not much came out. Then in July of 2017, that's

59:14 when they released that first composite sketch and they

59:16 described the person as being heavy set, an older man with a

59:20 bulbous nose and thin downturned lips.

59:23 He was between 5 foot 6 and 5 foot 10, weighing between 180

59:27 and 220 lbs, which is about 100 kilos.

59:30 Yeah. It's, it's interesting then, you

59:34 know, nothing else was released to the public.

59:36 And they were hoping that by releasing these tiny little bits

59:39 that it would be enough, that they'd get enough.

59:41 I don't know they'd get enough information to be able.

59:43 To find a lot of tips, but it wasn't then none of them were

59:46 going places. I guess like it's yeah, I just

59:50 don't understand the yeah. When was it they released then

59:54 the the audio? 2019 I wasn't talking.

59:57 Two years later, Jesus. Yes, two years later.

1:00:00 Yeah, right. So what they released, where

1:00:02 have I got that in my notes? What they released was the

1:00:06 video, the full video of what? So Libby, to her absolute

1:00:10 credit, what a hero of a child. Yes, she obviously had her

1:00:15 mobile phone. Now I feel like she must.

1:00:17 She and Abby must have felt very uncomfortable for her to

1:00:22 actually, you know, because you can tell she's secretly record

1:00:26 making this recording. It's not.

1:00:27 She hasn't got her phone up. Yeah.

1:00:29 It's like jumped by her side. It's actually upside down.

1:00:32 The original footage is upside down.

1:00:33 Yeah, because she's holding onto it beside her leg as she's

1:00:36 walking, as if she's just holding it, as if she's not

1:00:39 recording. Like it's just holding.

1:00:41 It holding her phone yeah and you can see bridge guy walking

1:00:45 behind them and now in the video I think there's like I think in

1:00:50 the video he takes maybe 2 1/2 steps or something in in what

1:00:53 was released. What was released?

1:00:54 Yeah. And because it turned out the

1:00:56 video was like 40 odd seconds long and it's longer.

1:00:59 Than that, oh, it's longer than 40 seconds.

1:01:00 Actually, a lot more that's never been released.

1:01:02 Wow, so we don't even know it now.

1:01:03 Police officers have spoken about it, the ones that have

1:01:06 seen the full video. And the the way it's been spoken

1:01:10 about is that these girls were terrified.

1:01:12 Oh, yeah. And they like as in building up

1:01:14 to what you see that before you see that what we have been

1:01:19 released to. Police officers say it was the

1:01:21 most terrifying footage I've ever seen.

1:01:23 Like. The girls were terrified.

1:01:26 Yeah. So it's really interesting why

1:01:28 they wouldn't just release all of that so we can get the full

1:01:30 grasp of who this was. Yeah.

1:01:32 Because I think if you got the lot, we'd maybe be able to make

1:01:35 more of a definitive just like picture of who this is if you've

1:01:38 met him in your life, like kind of thing, because there's

1:01:41 potentially more that was spoken.

1:01:42 Yeah, so when they first released the video, yeah, they

1:01:46 release the perpetrator well saying or the alleged.

1:01:50 They only released 3 words, the audio.

1:01:52 They never released the video of it.

1:01:53 That's true. Yeah, it was just the audio of.

1:01:55 It and it's very hard to hear because obviously Abby's holding

1:01:59 it either down by your side or at one point, well, at the start

1:02:02 they thought it was, you know, Pocket because there was no

1:02:04 video. It was only audio, even though

1:02:07 now we know there was video associated with it.

1:02:09 And it basically is this man saying down the hill and they

1:02:14 play that and they play it. And then people, they've sent

1:02:17 the well, video slash audio off to the FBI and even Disney.

1:02:21 Disney and NASA. And NASA to try and clean it up

1:02:24 a bit and they they were able to because when they re released

1:02:27 that those 3 words it is slightly clearer and you can

1:02:30 hear like very distinctly a male voice saying down the hill.

1:02:34 I'll add it in here. I think it was only it wasn't

1:02:42 actually that much later, but he then they, the police then

1:02:47 released the video that's associated with that audio.

1:02:50 And that gives a whole nother context.

1:02:52 Yeah, At that time, they also release a little bit before the

1:02:56 original audio where you can actually hear the perpetrator

1:02:59 say or the alleged perpetrator say, Guys down the hill now

1:03:04 this. Chills me.

1:03:06 Well, the thing with this bit is the art that really gets me

1:03:10 because there's guys and it's kind of friendly.

1:03:13 Well, it's very laid back, yeah. Very.

1:03:16 It's not like guys. But there's a ripple in the, in

1:03:18 the audio that I, I'm fairly certain there's more that's in

1:03:22 there that we don't hear, we don't know.

1:03:24 You can tell there's a cut because there's a.

1:03:25 Real change in tone to then when the you get the down the hill.

1:03:30 Yeah, it's a real graph. It's it's, it's dictating the

1:03:34 down the hill. It's like down the hill, yeah.

1:03:36 Whereas the guys is like guys, yeah.

1:03:38 It's just like I would be saying to.

1:03:39 Just getting their attention. Yeah, I reckon between that

1:03:42 guys, that's where this stuff happens that.

1:03:47 Is. Terrifying, police have said is

1:03:49 awful that the girls were terrified and they watching it.

1:03:52 They feel awful for them and can't help them because then

1:03:55 between that and then when he says down the hill, that's just

1:04:00 sickening. We can't.

1:04:02 Even. So and when they and you realize

1:04:04 then of where they are, they're on the end of the bridge there

1:04:07 where dead end, dead end. But he tells them you're down

1:04:09 the hill. And that's exactly where they

1:04:11 get found is that they're down the hill, over the river and

1:04:14 down further from there that this is the guy they're looking

1:04:18 for because he's dictating where to go where they would not have

1:04:20 otherwise gone. It's off the trail.

1:04:24 Yep. And you can hear Libby in the

1:04:26 the 43 second video that's released, you can hear the girls

1:04:30 kind of going, but there's no trail down there.

1:04:31 Like, where do we go now? You sort of hear them talking.

1:04:34 But yeah. So it's.

1:04:35 And then then he comes in with the down the hill.

1:04:41 Yeah. So there's something that's

1:04:42 going on between. Oh.

1:04:44 It's it's just makes. More.

1:04:47 I don't know it make it actually makes me feel sick because you

1:04:50 think how those girls must have been feeling in that moment.

1:04:54 They knew that this was not good.

1:04:55 Well. Obviously, the fact that Libby

1:04:57 had the wherewithal to pull out her phone and record it like she

1:04:59 knew something bad was gonna happen.

1:05:02 What an incredible young. Woman, the other thing is with

1:05:04 that footage then of getting that footage of him moving,

1:05:08 right, You watch him go across that bridge.

1:05:11 You can see in the footage, Libby behind, sorry, Abby behind

1:05:14 Libby. You see her and you watch her

1:05:16 and she's tentatively finding the next step.

1:05:19 She looks terrified in her face. And I do believe that part,

1:05:23 probably a good percentage of that is just literally where am

1:05:25 I putting my feet? Because as we know, she hated

1:05:27 being on that bridge. Libby was more confident.

1:05:30 But you then see bridge guy behind her who's walking with a

1:05:33 hand in his pocket across there. He's done it before.

1:05:37 He feels comfortable on that bridge.

1:05:39 And as we said, only locals go on that bridge.

1:05:42 He was a local. He knew the area.

1:05:44 He knew he knew that bridge. Yeah.

1:05:46 And so that's, I think that's what gets even more chilling for

1:05:48 the people of the town of Delphi.

1:05:50 Yeah. That this is someone that that

1:05:52 lives amongst them. Yeah.

1:05:53 Oh, oh, it's, it's terrifying. And then for the police to then

1:05:56 say that in one of their press releases as well, like, it

1:05:59 really did shake the community. Well, what what was awful was

1:06:02 with one of the press conferences that were

1:06:03 specifically asked by the journalists, should we be

1:06:06 worried in the town of Delphi that there is someone out there

1:06:08 who's murdered two children? And they were like, no, no, no,

1:06:11 no one's got anything to worry about.

1:06:13 What? Wait, what?

1:06:15 So what? This was a one off.

1:06:17 How do you know? That how do you know that?

1:06:18 Like you, I don't think it did what they thought they were

1:06:21 trying to do by like, you know, don't panic the town.

1:06:24 Yeah, it made people panic even more, I think.

1:06:25 Because you're like, what? And now are they not taking this

1:06:28 seriously? Yeah, this could be a serial

1:06:30 killer. We don't even know.

1:06:31 That's it and and why the FBI involved if it's not a serial

1:06:34 killer like. And that was that's what they

1:06:36 were saying because it was like the FBI normally only get

1:06:39 involved if it's things have happened across state lines.

1:06:41 So like. It's all serial killer

1:06:42 situation. Killers and So what?

1:06:45 Why is? Why are they there?

1:06:46 Why are they there? We still actually.

1:06:47 Don't know that. No, we don't.

1:06:49 Don't know why they were brought in so early or what was what was

1:06:52 the go with that? No.

1:06:55 Oh my gosh, where are we at? Do we want to talk about what we

1:06:58 now know about what should happen?

1:07:00 Just touch on a couple of of people who were looked at

1:07:03 suspects. Suspects.

1:07:04 Let's do that because one that we should probably talk about

1:07:06 first was the person they looked at first, which made sense

1:07:09 entirely definitely because as we said, the girls bodies were

1:07:11 found on private property. So whose property were they

1:07:14 found on? OK, well they were found on this

1:07:16 guy Ron Logan's property. Now his property is very, very

1:07:20 large. He is well known in the town.

1:07:23 Everyone knows who Ron Logan is. The bodies were found

1:07:27 approximately about I think it was like, I want to say like was

1:07:32 it 1400 feet? So how many?

1:07:34 I don't know how quick that meters.

1:07:37 It wasn't that far from the home though.

1:07:39 Basically it was a very walkable distance from his house, even

1:07:42 though his property is very very large.

1:07:44 It's less than 500 meters. Yeah, there we go. 500 meters

1:07:47 from the house is where these bodies were found.

1:07:51 So they obviously pull him in and have a talk to him.

1:07:54 Now unfortunately Ron stupidly I guess he immediately lied and

1:07:58 well he got his cousin to lie for him about where he was that

1:08:03 day and what he got his cousin and him to say was that his

1:08:07 cousin had driven him out for the day.

1:08:09 So he was with his cousin. Him being driven cause Ron

1:08:12 doesn't have a license. Lost his license.

1:08:14 He was a naughty person. So his cousin needed to drive

1:08:18 him around. He was running around doing

1:08:19 errands with his cousin. That was a lie.

1:08:23 He was not doing that. So the immediately thought is,

1:08:25 OK, well, if you're lying about where you were, there's

1:08:28 something here we'll look into. It turns out the real reason he

1:08:31 was lying there was not because he was did something to Libby

1:08:34 and Abby. He was actually.

1:08:35 It's video footage of him at the local tip.

1:08:38 Yeah, getting rid of stuff at the tip.

1:08:40 Driven himself to the tip. And he didn't have a lot.

1:08:43 He didn't have a lot he. Was going to get caught for

1:08:45 that, yeah. So yeah, dickhead.

1:08:48 And I think the time that he was at the tip kind of excluded him

1:08:53 from being able to then get back, get into the woods, do

1:08:56 something to Abby and Libby and yeah, kind of be done by then.

1:09:00 And the other thing was that people have said too is like,

1:09:02 okay, if it was him, why would he leave them on 500 meters from

1:09:05 his house and then like come home and go about my day?

1:09:10 Yeah, you wouldn't. You wouldn't do that on your own

1:09:12 property. Then you have dumped them

1:09:13 somewhere else. Because he would have known

1:09:15 those woods so well. Yeah, on the other side of the

1:09:17 river, So not in your property. Nothing to do with you.

1:09:19 That's of course you gonna get looked at if you put it on your

1:09:21 property. Yeah.

1:09:22 So he was, he was ruled out. People like to go back to look

1:09:26 at him constantly, but he's been ruled out.

1:09:28 He passed away in 2022. He did, too.

1:09:31 So he's no longer alive. Yeah, the police did go pretty

1:09:35 hard in looking at him. They got a search warrant for

1:09:39 his house. Yeah, he filled an entire police

1:09:41 van with knives and other weapons from his home, So that's

1:09:47 just an interesting thing. But he, he's a fire and he

1:09:51 haunted like it was. I mean, you know.

1:09:53 You're gonna have far more of that stuff living out that way.

1:09:56 I I kind of can come at the same.

1:09:57 Yeah, I'm not. Shocked.

1:09:59 Like in the lifestyle, Yeah. Yeah, that's it.

1:10:02 All right. Is our next person Anthony

1:10:04 Shocks? Well, or shall we say Keegan?

1:10:07 Klein, Keegan. Keegan.

1:10:09 Keegan. Keegan, Keegan.

1:10:10 It's actually Keegan. Is that how you pronounce it,

1:10:12 Keegan? OK.

1:10:14 This guy. This guy.

1:10:17 Wow. OK, So what we know is that so

1:10:21 this keg and Klein had an online profile under the name of

1:10:25 Anthony Shocks, who proclaimed to be.

1:10:29 So Anthony Shocks was a very handsome, well known model, and

1:10:35 he would befriend young girls and and basically coerce them

1:10:42 into sending him nude pictures of themselves.

1:10:46 Yeah. So we're talking Child

1:10:48 Exploitation material. And it was later found out by

1:10:53 the FBI that Kegan wasn't the only person who had access to

1:10:58 this Anthony Schock's profile. There was actually a fucking

1:11:00 ring of these absolute fucking pieces of shit.

1:11:03 Access to all sorts of other people, including his own dad,

1:11:06 Tony. Yep.

1:11:06 His dad, Tony. Oh my God.

1:11:10 Oh, did you know they went to like some sex ring together?

1:11:13 Yeah, together, my God father son in Vegas.

1:11:17 Yeah, gross. They went and got blowjobs

1:11:19 together. Oh yuck.

1:11:21 Fucking disgusting. Gross.

1:11:23 So the way that this Anthony Schock's profile had interacted

1:11:27 with Libby was that Libby and Abby were having a sleepover at

1:11:34 a girlfriend's house. This girlfriend had an older

1:11:37 sister who had a friend who was supposedly friends with Anthony

1:11:43 Scholz. I know this is like really

1:11:44 convoluted but this is how he. Well, actually, I think it was

1:11:47 actually the, it was a different profile to Anthony Scholz that

1:11:50 she was communicating with again.

1:11:52 So I actually think it might have even been a Keegan Klein

1:11:55 profile originally that she was talking with.

1:11:57 Oh. Right.

1:11:58 And then this, Keegan said. Oh, you should really talk with

1:12:01 my other friend Anthony. So he was he was working it from

1:12:05 all different angles. Wowzes, I didn't.

1:12:06 Yeah, there was all sorts of angles.

1:12:08 That is even worse, Yeah. I mean, it's bad no matter what,

1:12:11 but yeah. Yeah, so then Anthony Schott

1:12:13 started communicating with Libby.

1:12:15 And what the friends say after that sleepover is they assume

1:12:19 that she just never. Contacted him, they had a couple

1:12:21 of back and forth on the night and they would just assume that

1:12:24 that was done and dusted with it because we don't know him but.

1:12:27 He's hot, but what we do know now is that Libby was actually

1:12:31 communicating with him quite frequently after that sleepover.

1:12:34 Including the day of them going missing.

1:12:36 Exactly. The morning of like, Oh my God.

1:12:39 Which means Abby was in the room too when that was happening.

1:12:42 They were together. Well, they were together that

1:12:44 whole time. Yeah.

1:12:45 So don't know whether, I mean, we don't know, we don't know

1:12:48 that, but possibly. I mean, they told each other

1:12:50 everything. I'm I wouldn't be shocked if she

1:12:52 did. Yeah, so the fact that there was

1:12:56 all these interactions and obviously an interaction that

1:12:58 happened on the morning that the girls went missing, this guy

1:13:00 becomes a pretty serious time. Yeah, a pretty serious suspect.

1:13:05 The police go and have a look into what's going on with him

1:13:09 and they find an untold amount of Child Exploitation material.

1:13:15 We're not only talking, like, nudes of girls.

1:13:18 And he says he prefers girls aged between 12 and 14.

1:13:25 It actually literally makes me feel sick.

1:13:27 Yeah. He also had videos he had like,

1:13:33 just the thought of that. I can't.

1:13:35 I can't actually come out. It's so gross.

1:13:37 It's so disgusting. It's known that he has shared

1:13:40 some of this material and shared the Anthony Spark, Anthony

1:13:44 Schock's profile so that other people can access the same

1:13:47 material. It's it it I just can't.

1:13:51 But in in this whole thing, the weirdest thing I find about this

1:13:54 though is they find out about this this King Klein and the

1:13:57 Anthony Schatz and all this but he nothing happens to him.

1:14:00 Nope. So.

1:14:01 This they found that in 2017. 2017 They find this information

1:14:04 out and they do now we don't know everything because again

1:14:07 they have not released a hell of a lot to us.

1:14:09 But for whatever reason, and I believe it's to do with the fact

1:14:11 that his they can't place him in Delphi.

1:14:14 He was his phone pings off of where he lives, which is not in

1:14:18 Delphi, a couple of towns over sort of stuff.

1:14:21 It is within distance to get to Delphi, but on that day he is

1:14:25 placed in where he lives, not Delphi.

1:14:28 So from what we've been told enough of is that the cops have

1:14:31 cleared him, but he's not arrested for the, Yep, the

1:14:37 untold amounts of child pornography at that point.

1:14:39 No, he has now been and he is now in jail.

1:14:42 Three years later, three years later, he was arrested and his

1:14:45 father and he is in jail for. He was he was convicted of 30

1:14:50 felonies and he was in jail for 40 years.

1:14:53 Thank God. Thank God where he belongs,

1:14:55 gross, human and his. Father fuck, he can rush.

1:14:58 Yeah. And so just another I think any

1:15:01 example of though with this with him is when you see him and what

1:15:04 he physically looks like, I don't believe he looks like

1:15:08 bridge guy. No agreed.

1:15:10 Like there's elements but not no.

1:15:12 I don't. I think the upper body of him

1:15:15 looks really different to. Bridge guy, yeah, I agree.

1:15:18 So I don't believe I, I, I'm, I rule him out personally, I do I.

1:15:23 Think he's a really bad dude? Yeah, but I don't think he was.

1:15:26 Involved I think there's lots of parts of his life that are

1:15:29 completely gross and like I get people looking at him closer,

1:15:33 but I I think that the cops have done their due diligence here

1:15:36 and they have ruled him out from this case.

1:15:39 Yes. What else he's been involved

1:15:41 with? I mean, the fact that he was

1:15:42 convicted of 30 felonies says a lot.

1:15:44 Yep. Yep, and so he should be.

1:15:46 So he should be, absolutely. He can run and help, yeah.

1:15:50 Then we get to the person. Should we get to?

1:15:54 Yeah, Well, yeah, we can. We can have a chat about Richard

1:15:57 Allen. So Richard Allen, he wasn't on

1:16:00 the cops radar. Well, it should have been, but

1:16:03 wasn't until 2022. Yep.

1:16:07 So now supposedly, well, not supposedly it is.

1:16:10 What happened was back in 2017, Yep, when all this went down,

1:16:16 apparently Richard Allen said to his wife.

1:16:18 I was out at the bridge today. He.

1:16:20 Had his day off work. His wife said, well, you should

1:16:23 go and let the cops know you were out there.

1:16:24 You know, he goes, oh, I didn't see anything.

1:16:25 Like I didn't see the girls or anything.

1:16:27 But she's like, oh, you should let them know that you were out

1:16:29 that way. So we've been off.

1:16:31 Instead of going down to the police station, he just goes and

1:16:35 out. So he worked at CVS, which is

1:16:37 like a farm, like a really big pharmacy kind of store, chain

1:16:40 store. Like in, in America, They're

1:16:42 everywhere. So out the front of the CVS, he

1:16:45 sees like a, like a Ranger. Yeah, not a police officer.

1:16:49 I think he was a a sheriff. No, I don't even know if it was

1:16:51 a sheriff as such like conservation officer I want.

1:16:55 To say yeah. Yeah, like part of that kind of

1:16:58 career, but not exactly what you're looking for in terms of

1:17:00 police. So especially if you're

1:17:01 reporting something like that. So someone who would definitely

1:17:04 report it, right? But so he went to this person

1:17:07 and said, just so you know, like, I just want to let you

1:17:10 know I was out there that day, right?

1:17:11 So this guy's Oh yeah, taking his name and do it on the right.

1:17:14 Things are written down and filed it away with that stuff.

1:17:19 But it got filed incorrectly, which because it wasn't actually

1:17:22 a police officer, you know what I mean?

1:17:23 Like I mean, I guess yeah, it was taken and put in wrong pile

1:17:27 from coming from a very odd situation.

1:17:30 Source. Yeah.

1:17:31 So in this all of this. So years later, 2022, a

1:17:35 volunteer, she was an ex secretary or an assistant to in

1:17:39 the police force. She had volunteered a day of

1:17:42 going through files for cold case kind of stuff, particularly

1:17:45 this case. She was going through the files

1:17:47 picking out things. She kind of goes or anything

1:17:48 we've missed, you know, like and she finds Richard Allen hasn't

1:17:52 been looked at. This is something that's been

1:17:54 buried in the US and not looked at through.

1:17:56 All of the leads that had come in by phone by whatever.

1:18:00 Yeah and cross checking them against police interviews yeah

1:18:03 and she would write on the ones that have been cleared.

1:18:07 Cleared on their files. Yeah, she came across this one

1:18:10 and it nobody had ever. Nobody's checked.

1:18:11 Touched it, yeah. And she was like, oh, so

1:18:14 immediately she was like, oh, this is odd.

1:18:17 I need to escalate this. Yeah.

1:18:19 So yeah, so the cops go out and bring him in for a chat in 2022.

1:18:23 Now the interview is. You can see the video there's of

1:18:27 the interview. Just before you get to that.

1:18:29 Yeah, as he was leaving, so as the police come to his house to

1:18:32 essentially arrest him. No, they didn't arrest him.

1:18:34 They just asked him to come in for an interview.

1:18:36 Yeah, he there is. I think one of the police

1:18:40 officers says that, he said. Oh well, it was probably time

1:18:46 that they were gonna get me. Which he he now says, you know,

1:18:49 because it was about time they interviewed me.

1:18:51 They never spoke, but yeah, yeah, bit odd.

1:18:54 Bit odd, yeah. Anyway, sorry, no, it's it's

1:18:56 relevant. But yeah, so they bring him in

1:18:58 for this chat. Now in this chat and the

1:19:00 interview he openly says on that day he wore blue jeans, dark

1:19:05 Navy or black jacket, literally wore what bridge guy was wearing

1:19:09 and then gets uppity about it that they're accusing him of

1:19:11 looking like bridge guy. Like I just, I don't know where.

1:19:14 He's coming from everyone in Delphi wears that.

1:19:17 OK, but you were wearing that on the day that these girls went

1:19:22 missing. Went missing.

1:19:23 And were murdered and you're saying you were in that?

1:19:25 Area wearing that exact thing, yeah.

1:19:31 Yeah. So from that interview, they,

1:19:33 he, they get to a point where they do arrest him.

1:19:37 They do get a warrant to search his house.

1:19:40 At his house, they find a spent bullet and a gun, which is then

1:19:45 used as well where they look at the so basically at the crime

1:19:49 scene between the two girls, they did find a spent bullet.

1:19:51 Now it wasn't one that had been fired out of the gun.

1:19:54 It was that like as if someone had cocked it and the bullet had

1:19:57 come out of the gun. And when that happens, certain

1:19:59 markings occur. So they were able to line them

1:20:02 up and they can do all their ballistic stuff and look, it's.

1:20:06 Not junk science, but it's like it's questionable science.

1:20:09 There's lots of like, varying opinions on whether or not

1:20:12 that's right. It's not there's, it's not

1:20:14 really based in hard evidence, but there's like a likelihood

1:20:17 that, yeah, came from this gun. It's not.

1:20:19 I don't think they can say it. Within a certain.

1:20:21 Certainty, whereas you can with a fired gun, a fired bullet, OK,

1:20:25 it's a lot more definitive. But the fact that it hadn't been

1:20:28 fired out of the barrel, yeah, and just had had gone into the

1:20:32 barrel and not actually come, like, yeah, fired out meant that

1:20:35 the markings aren't as unique. Yeah, but a number of experts

1:20:40 have looked at it and do agree, Yep, that likelihood is that it

1:20:44 came from that gun. Yeah.

1:20:45 That he owns, Yes. So, yeah, bit of.

1:20:48 So we've got some evidence being found in terms of physical

1:20:51 evidence, the fact of what he wore that day that he puts

1:20:54 himself there, you know, they arrest him and he is on trial.

1:20:58 Yep. He at the time absolutely deny,

1:21:01 denies any of it that he was. It's not not part of it.

1:21:05 His wife being interviewed in that documentary I find weird.

1:21:09 So weird. I I can't get my head around

1:21:11 her. I don't know what to think of.

1:21:13 Her at all? I just think she wants to

1:21:17 believe that her husband didn't do it.

1:21:19 I get that. I think mentally she can't get

1:21:23 her head around the fact that maybe he or that he, well, he's,

1:21:26 he's in prison. So he perpetrated these crimes.

1:21:30 Like because and I, you know, we've talked about this in other

1:21:33 serial killer cases as well, where they're normal people out

1:21:36 in society and they're going out and doing these horrific things

1:21:40 and then they're coming home to their families at the end of the

1:21:43 day. And their families might not

1:21:44 necessarily know anything different.

1:21:45 No, that's the one thing that gets me with him.

1:21:48 Is that OK, there's one one part of this is like that.

1:21:52 We don't have anything on record of him ever doing anything else

1:21:55 like this before or after this incident.

1:21:57 Doesn't mean he hasn't. Correct.

1:22:00 But nothing has been found, and no one like, well, there's only

1:22:03 his wife that's speaking out. Other people really haven't

1:22:06 spoken about him. The only bit of stuff you get

1:22:08 from outsiders is that I really only spoke to his wife.

1:22:11 He was always very quiet. His wife was the chatty one.

1:22:14 Yeah. Which happens in relationships.

1:22:15 Very normal. Hello.

1:22:16 My relationship. Oh, good.

1:22:21 Yeah. So that can definitely be a

1:22:22 thing. It's not out of the ordinary at

1:22:23 all. So you're not kind of getting

1:22:26 from the outside kind of going. Oh yeah.

1:22:27 I've always thought he was weird or he had he touched my daughter

1:22:30 inappropriately or, you know, you don't see AI don't know a

1:22:33 pattern of behaviour in any way. So that that does get me with

1:22:39 this, that someone like this does not go.

1:22:41 I mean, we're talking he would have been about 45 when this

1:22:44 incident occurred. You don't get to 45 and murder 2

1:22:48 girls out of nowhere and then don't do anything again up for

1:22:51 the next 5 years until you're arrested.

1:22:53 Like, I don't know, that's the only part of this that I

1:22:57 struggle with to kind of go. I agree, but also what don't we

1:23:01 know? Totally.

1:23:02 This is the thing. It's only we don't know in this

1:23:04 case. And I'm like, maybe that has

1:23:07 just never been released or? But this is where I feel like

1:23:11 the judge has done the wrong. Thing I agree.

1:23:13 In that so all right so this goes to trial and well, probably

1:23:18 even trial the the defence attorneys put in a submission.

1:23:25 He's a bit weird. The defence attorney, yeah, they

1:23:28 put in a submission like a 1200 page document of like other

1:23:32 theories as to why it's not him right.

1:23:34 Anyone else but him? Sort of.

1:23:35 Situation Court appointed attorneys because because he

1:23:40 couldn't afford an attorney and the court appointed 3

1:23:44 independent defence attorneys to him.

1:23:47 Yeah. And the main guy?

1:23:49 Yes, Strange, Very odd. Very, very.

1:23:53 Odd lived in his basement to work in this case.

1:23:56 Like, very very strange. Recorded a lot of stuff like

1:24:00 video recorded as if he was going to make his own doco about

1:24:02 this. I just question a bit of him.

1:24:05 Yeah, so. So he's submitted this huge

1:24:08 manifesto memo, he calls it, but it's a manifesto to the courts

1:24:12 around other alternatives to it being someone else other than

1:24:15 Richard Allen. Now what the judge had turned

1:24:18 around then and said was that he was not going to allow into the

1:24:22 trial them to claim third party suspects, which I find really I

1:24:30 find that challenging in that for appeals and things if you

1:24:34 don't allow information like that to be used.

1:24:36 I get why the judge did that though, because there was no

1:24:39 evidence, like there was no hard evidence.

1:24:42 So I I understand that they wanted to create.

1:24:46 A reasonable doubt, reasonable doubt, which I think then it

1:24:49 narrows how they can do that. That's right.

1:24:50 And then not lawful. Yeah, I I get that too.

1:24:53 But you can't also just go out and be like, oh, Meg did it.

1:24:56 Yeah, you've gotta have have evidence to build to.

1:24:58 That and they didn't have enough evidence.

1:25:00 So I also agree with why the judge said, well, no, you can't

1:25:03 just put. Point, point, point.

1:25:05 Point to all these random people because there's no evidence to

1:25:08 back up what you're. Saying no.

1:25:09 And I feel like then I they, I mean, they know more than we

1:25:12 know and entirely in terms of like the police, so.

1:25:14 Hard to form an opinion I. Know, because I reckon the

1:25:17 police obviously have very valid reasons that they've sealed up

1:25:20 and gone. It's not XYZ.

1:25:23 Yeah. And one in particular being this

1:25:25 Odinism theory. Yeah, that there's reasons why

1:25:27 they are it's not that which hasn't been made public for

1:25:31 whatever reason yeah that the judge is aware of enclosed you

1:25:36 know yeah, in the court situation that that I can get

1:25:40 why the decision was made without us having the knowledge

1:25:43 of things and I. But unfortunately that creates

1:25:46 and it has created this massive storm of like podcasters and

1:25:49 stuff going off. And I've listened to some nuts

1:25:51 job podcasts saying of like adamant theories on this Odinism

1:25:56 or on Keegan Klein when there is enough to say that it didn't

1:25:59 happen. Yes.

1:26:01 Oh, for for sure, for sure. It's it's bizarre to me.

1:26:05 So what what the Odin, I'm just gonna really quickly summarise

1:26:08 what Yeah, yeah, that theory was.

1:26:10 But this Odin report that they called it was basically they are

1:26:14 saying that there was ritualistic activity detected in

1:26:17 the way the girls were placed and there were sticks on top of

1:26:21 their bodies. And they're saying that those

1:26:22 sticks were like. Laid in a way that were symbols.

1:26:26 Ruins. Ruins, they're called.

1:26:28 Yeah. So they're like ancient symbols

1:26:30 that mean different things. Yeah.

1:26:31 So it's a Norse Pagan religion, this Odinism.

1:26:35 And they're saying that, like, intentional marks were left in

1:26:39 blood on trees that were also ruined symbols.

1:26:42 And apparently the FBI did look down this path and completely

1:26:47 eliminated it. Like not this sort of.

1:26:49 Thing because they named two people in that report being Brad

1:26:52 Holder and Patrick Westfall. Now Patrick Westfall is

1:26:55 interviewed and he's quite, quite a normal ish kind of

1:26:58 bloke, but yeah, yeah, you know. But so he talks about the fact

1:27:04 that this N oh God, I'm going to get Ross North.

1:27:08 Religion. Pagan is very based in nature.

1:27:11 Yep, So yes, sticks and things and all that are used and this

1:27:15 particularly this Brad holder who's who they sort of pin well,

1:27:18 sort of highlighting on this. He posted online things with,

1:27:21 you know, these sticks and things placed in, in in way in

1:27:24 symbol format and you know, and then they're saying that then,

1:27:28 oh, that's how Libby and Abby were placed with similar to a

1:27:31 post that he made about something on Facebook.

1:27:35 But they've obviously done their due diligence because they've

1:27:37 done this report and they've looked into it and so.

1:27:40 Brad Holden meets a lot of criteria.

1:27:42 I can understand why they looked into him.

1:27:43 Sure, Abby was friends with Brad's son.

1:27:45 Son. Yep.

1:27:47 They he, he had a post on Facebook that was like that said

1:27:51 something along the lines of friends help friends move

1:27:53 bodies, yes, like one of those, you know, but.

1:27:55 I'd post that about you exactly. You know, like, I mean, yeah,

1:27:58 I'd totally bury Pete's body if you need me to.

1:28:02 Apparently there were odinous symbols made out of sticks on

1:28:05 his social media account. Yeah, but he had a good alibi.

1:28:09 He was at work and there's like CCTV footage of.

1:28:11 Him, this is the thing, he's been eliminated.

1:28:14 It's not him. He wasn't there.

1:28:15 He's got like multiple people from his workplace.

1:28:17 Yeah. Who placed him at work when this

1:28:19 occurred? Yeah, exactly.

1:28:20 So like, so, yeah, to keep pushing this is just a

1:28:23 nightmare. Yeah.

1:28:24 The judge's wording was that the that they could not introduce as

1:28:28 it as evidence due to there being no Nexus to tie all the

1:28:32 information to the crime or third party suspects.

1:28:34 Exactly. So they're trying to pull that

1:28:37 out and appeal now as well and bring it back again.

1:28:39 He's he's what comes so December 17th is they're due to submit

1:28:44 all their documents. He's already submitted.

1:28:48 He's submitting a $24,000 thousand dollar 24,000 word or

1:28:53 page. It must be word, word, but word.

1:28:56 But also like, in terms of all of the research and stuff that

1:29:01 the lawyer did with that manifesto, he said that he

1:29:05 reviewed almost 4 million pieces of paper, like pages.

1:29:10 No, we didn't. That's what he reckons.

1:29:12 Oh, I'm sorry. Between him and the three

1:29:14 people. So it's just, it's just.

1:29:16 It was a 1200 page document with the Odinism.

1:29:18 Document. But he's saying in order to come

1:29:20 up with that, he reviewed 4 million pages of.

1:29:24 OK, yeah, I know it's an absolute farce.

1:29:30 Yeah, it's ridiculous. It's absolutely ridiculous.

1:29:33 So, OK, where are we at now? We've basically got Richard

1:29:37 Allen. He's in prison, so awaiting the

1:29:39 trial. He's been sentenced or now we

1:29:42 get to there, are we? Yeah, no, that's fine.

1:29:44 I mean, so I think probably before that, yeah.

1:29:47 Awaiting the trial, though. He's still in prison.

1:29:49 He didn't make bail rights, yes. He.

1:29:51 Ended up going into solitary confinement.

1:29:54 He was there for 1312 or 13 months in the lead up to the

1:29:58 trial. For his own safety.

1:29:59 For his own safety, absolutely. He murdered two young girls.

1:30:01 Everyone in Delphi wanted to kill him, Jen.

1:30:03 Park's gonna murder. Him.

1:30:05 And so during the time that he was in solitary, he phones his

1:30:10 wife and he says to her, I did it.

1:30:13 And she's like, he did what? And he goes, I killed them.

1:30:15 I killed Abby and Libby. Yeah.

1:30:17 And she's like, no, you didn't. You didn't.

1:30:19 Don't say that. Yeah, and you need to stop

1:30:21 talking now. Yeah.

1:30:22 And he's like, no, I did it. I'm.

1:30:24 I'm going to confess. I did it.

1:30:27 And he apologizes to his wife and he.

1:30:29 I'm so sorry. And she, she and then his

1:30:32 defense attorneys come out and say, well, no, because he's been

1:30:35 in solitary confinement. His mental health has

1:30:38 deteriorated to the point where he'd say anything to get out of

1:30:41 it. They get a human rights lawyer

1:30:43 to come in and weigh in on it. And the human rights lawyer says

1:30:45 that people shouldn't be in solitary for more than 15. 15

1:30:48 days? Is that apparently the Max?

1:30:51 Well, Aaron Patterson's been so anyway, that's a whole different

1:30:55 story. But, you know, I, I, whatever.

1:31:00 He then is convicted and sentenced.

1:31:04 They tried to like throw that out the confessions and things

1:31:06 in the trial, but they didn't have it.

1:31:08 They they, it was, it was able to be used in the in absolutely

1:31:11 in the trial. Confessed on prison recorded

1:31:14 numerous online more than. Once, yeah, it's all recorded.

1:31:16 Like you can actually listen to them.

1:31:18 Like it's, it's actually interesting to hear him

1:31:19 confessing. I believe him.

1:31:21 Same when he says it. I'm convinced he did.

1:31:23 Yeah. And I think he's, I mean, the

1:31:25 cops know more than we know. And I think that they, they have

1:31:28 put this together, there was 12 people in the jewelry who only,

1:31:33 they only, what's the word I'm looking for?

1:31:39 Convicted him? No.

1:31:40 Talked like fairly deliberated over the outcome for like less

1:31:47 than 20 hours yes. And then they came back just.

1:31:49 Over a day wasn't. It Yeah, yeah, they came back

1:31:52 with guilty on 4 counts. Now I went to look it up.

1:31:56 They were guilty on the two counts of murder and two counts

1:31:59 felony murder. Yes, I didn't understand the

1:32:01 difference between that. No, and I was, I didn't mean to

1:32:04 look it up, sorry people. I will.

1:32:05 I'll look it. But so there were 4 counts he

1:32:07 was done for. So then they came to the

1:32:09 sentencing. I'm just blown away by this.

1:32:12 So he got 130. Years.

1:32:14 It's the only time in that area I think that somebody has

1:32:18 received a consecutive sentence. So he has to serve the 65 years

1:32:22 for one girl. Yeah.

1:32:23 And then serve the 65 years of the other like murder, which.

1:32:27 He won't make. He won't make.

1:32:30 But how amazing is that? Because generally, like, I know

1:32:33 in Australia, if you're convicted of two murders, you

1:32:36 generally serve those sentences concurrently.

1:32:38 Yeah. So it would only be 65 years, I

1:32:40 mean. Not well.

1:32:40 We don't get 65 years for life, though.

1:32:42 The equivalent for life here is not that far that long.

1:32:45 It's 25. Yeah.

1:32:47 Yeah. So it's it's an, it was an

1:32:49 extraordinary outcome and one that really sort of, I guess it

1:32:54 made the people of Delphi feel safe and secure in, in that.

1:32:58 Yeah. But then that you've got all of

1:32:59 these other people who think he's in there and been convicted

1:33:02 incorrectly. Yeah.

1:33:03 And so let's see where this appeal.

1:33:06 See where the appeal goes. But I mean, he's a bit of a nut

1:33:09 job. The lawyer I I feel like it

1:33:10 might not. I think he's, I believe he's got

1:33:13 new counsel for the appeal. No, he's got the same counsel.

1:33:16 Oh, OK. Oh, that's interesting.

1:33:18 Oh, yeah. And that's so they keep asking

1:33:19 for extensions, like a week here, a week there.

1:33:21 Yeah. But well, it's looking like next

1:33:23 week is the deadline that they should have their submissions

1:33:25 in. So I dare say we'll hear more in

1:33:27 the new year in terms of an outcome of the appeal.

1:33:30 So we'll update when we get it. But yeah, I, I think we've got

1:33:33 the guy. I, I feel I agree instinct, but

1:33:35 I fully, fully agree. I mean, it's not not my decision

1:33:38 to make, but no, no if it was. So easy.

1:33:41 I think the reason this case resonated with so many people

1:33:44 and the reason we're talking about it, I mean, not only the,

1:33:47 you know, the sequence of events, but the fact that Libby

1:33:50 was so brave in doing what she did and recording what she did

1:33:52 to have that wherewithal as a 14 year old girl to do that.

1:33:55 And, you know, that's led to the outcome that it has.

1:33:58 She's incredible. Yeah.

1:34:01 You know, the community involvement, the fact that

1:34:03 there's so many people in the community who came together,

1:34:05 rallied to support this family at that time, Then this social

1:34:09 media obsession. If you want to go down a really

1:34:11 deep dive, go to Reddit. Yeah, on this.

1:34:13 Case Oh, Reddit's mad on the. Insane.

1:34:15 Yeah. It's actually insane.

1:34:16 Yeah. And then the fact that there was

1:34:18 such a massive delay between the murders and the arrest and then

1:34:23 subsequent trial. Yeah.

1:34:24 And why things weren't released and why we still to this day

1:34:28 don't know everything. I think that's really captured

1:34:30 people's attention and there's no letting up of it.

1:34:33 No, there's no letting up of. It no.

1:34:35 I really hope one day they do fill us in a little bit more as

1:34:37 to why that is the case, even if they don't release it, but just

1:34:40 tell us why you're not releasing it, right?

1:34:41 I don't know just one or the other either.

1:34:44 I don't know if it was like inexperienced because the local

1:34:48 county police officers, yeah, they don't really deal with

1:34:52 murder. No.

1:34:53 Which I I love the fact that they have all come in to work on

1:34:56 this case together. Yeah.

1:34:57 But yeah. Did that mean that then things

1:34:59 weren't being. I don't know.

1:35:00 Whatever the way they should have been, I really don't know.

1:35:03 No. Just a quick note on the

1:35:05 families as well. You know, the dignity that they

1:35:07 showed throughout this process cannot be, you know, discounted.

1:35:11 Absolutely. They're incredible people and

1:35:13 I'm so sorry for their loss. Absolutely.

1:35:15 You know, it's so profound and we can't imagine it and but they

1:35:19 have have really shown amazing character throughout this

1:35:23 entire. Oh, God, yeah, no, they are

1:35:27 amazing people and amazing families.

1:35:28 And Libby and Abby can credibly have, you know, credible girls

1:35:33 because of who they're who raised them.

1:35:35 And my heart goes out to their families.

1:35:37 It's just awful. That should never be the outcome

1:35:39 for a 13 and 14 year old. Never.

1:35:41 That piece of shit can rot in jail.

1:35:43 And so can Keegan Klein, Kagan. Kagan.

1:35:45 Sorry, I don't give a shit. Keegan.

1:35:48 Keegan all day. Keegan sounds way more bogan.

1:35:52 So thank you everybody for joining us for our final episode

1:35:55 for 2025. Stay tuned.

1:35:57 We'll announce on social media what our first episode of 2026

1:36:00 will be. I can't believe we're saying

1:36:02 2026. We will be releasing A Patreon

1:36:05 episode over this time, so if you can't go for three weeks

1:36:07 without hearing your besties, pop on over to Patreon.

1:36:10 Because we will be releasing something over there.

1:36:12 We thought we might do a little Christmas special with some

1:36:14 ones. And if there's a particular

1:36:18 topic you want us to talk about, please let us know.

1:36:20 Send us a DM on the socials, that's probably the easiest way

1:36:24 to reach us on Instagram. Just not TikTok.

1:36:27 Yeah, not TikTok. We still haven't resolved that

1:36:29 issue. I don't know that it's ever

1:36:30 gonna come back, but that's fine.

1:36:32 We'll work it out. Whatever, It'll be OK.

1:36:34 Merry Christmas to everyone. Merry Christmas.

1:36:36 Thank you. For your support during 2025, we

1:36:38 hope you all have a really safe and happy festive season.

1:36:41 Yeah, whichever way you choose to celebrate and we look forward

1:36:45 to a Bumper 2026. Bring on 2026 for two crime

1:36:48 besties. It's gonna be a big one.

1:36:50 Yeah, yeah. Merry Christmas and stay

1:36:53 curious, crime besties. Bye.