REPLAY - Epsiode 6 - Jaidyn Leskie

0:15 Welcome to crime besties. Back to another episode and we are here for another true Crime Story today that. We are. Today we're gonna be talking about Jayden Leski. It's a really interesting case that happened in Victoria in the 1990s. So I've I've really enjoyed researching this one. It's been again, it's it's one that's fairly close to where we live. So it's been really, really interesting to find out some extra facts about it. The. One where I thought like there wasn't too much to it. And I mean, I remember it occurring and I was like fairly, oh, this is fairly straightforward.

0:52 But the more I got into it, there was more to it. Yeah, for sure. It's interesting. Yeah. There were certainly things that I learnt when in researching this. So it's it's interesting, yeah. But before we get into it, let's have a quick chat. What's been going on in your life? What's been happening in the last week or so? It's not been too bad. I've been a pretty crazy week, but I know you've been busy with been busy planning, et cetera. So this particular special person's birthday. That's right, my eldest son turns 10 next week, which is so exciting I just can't believe.

1:20 He blows my. Mind, I've been parents for decades. He's a 10 years old and he's huge. Like he's tall. He's almost as tall as I am. The. Greatest human. I just thought him, yeah, really impressed. He he, they have a dress up day at school today and it was where the theme was Wear it Wild. I think it was a fundraiser for the RSPCA. Yeah. And this is just speaks to his character. He's gone to school dressed as a Flamingo. True. Ollie style. True Ollie style, 'cause he's already got the fully pink sneakers, he has fully pink socks, socks that he's worn up his legs, a pink Tutu.

1:58 When we were in Hawaii earlier in the year, he decided to buy himself a pink Flamingo shirt. And then I found this, this amazing hat from I think it was from Big W Oh my God, it is hilarious. It's a Flamingo like sitting on top of his head. It's very, very funny. I might even pop a photo in the in the show. Don't see well. I love it. It's been like just the different emotions of the Flamingo through the morning. Even a serious Flamingo, you know, sitting in assembly with, yes, crazy fun Flamingo as he's got ready for the morning and I just.

2:30 And then, yeah, well, and then disappointed Flamingo when he's found his lunch wasn't the right one. This. Oh, I know. I just feel like that. It's just, it's just so classic for him like this. I love it. I'm just obsessed. Yeah, one of our friends went to assembly this morning and sent us through a photo of him sitting there. The the look on his face was hilarious. And then he's got this giant flamingos sitting on the top of his head. True Ollie style. True Ollie style. So he turns 10 next week.

2:58 And I mean, what do you get a 10 year old for their birthday? He wants. Well, actually, I'll tell you what he asks for, he said. Mum, for my birthday this year, I just want a hamper of all my favorite things. It's a hamper. Hamper. It's. He's so bougie. He's so you turned her on. Off for a hamper. I know, I know, I know. He just loves it and all his favorite things. So got he's got some lollies and, and, and some footy socks and footy cards. He wanted some like LED strip lighting for his bedroom that's in there.

3:32 And then we also got him a watch, which is neon pink, orange, yellow. It's really cool. Gonna love that. Does he have any idea that's? In well, he, he's actually asked for it for the last few years. So he it's been on his list for a while. So I thought. That was your finally. I just, you know, there's when they think that they're never gonna get it. And then you can just go, well, I am the greatest. I think he's gonna absolutely love it. So yeah. So that's kept us busy. And he's got a birthday party coming up so he's doing splat ball, which is paintball.

4:03 But it doesn't hurt for 10 year olds and I think some of the dads are more keen. I think the dads are gonna go to Yeah, very excited. I want, yeah. Details. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, it's very exciting. Yeah, no, it's so much fun. And I mean, I love that, that he just enjoys life, you know? And he's gonna love his party, too, for that. It's just awesome. He's just who he is. He's the best. Yeah. I know it's, it's hard to believe and I mean you, you're not that long, not that long away until you're gonna have a 10 year old too.

4:33 It's crazy. It does blow my mind. Yeah, crazy, crazy. And then talking about our beautiful children. Unfortunately, today's episode we we're going to be talking about some really horrible stuff towards a very young baby. So I think we better do a bit of a warning here around some of the top their content today, because they can be quite confronting. So and we are certainly want to be very mindful of that and respectful because it is such a young baby and being mums ourselves, it can like feel so much for Belinda, the mother in this case for for certain, it's not it's not something pleasant at all.

5:10 So heads up warning for some of the content today and we can dive in to Jayden Leski, OK? So Jayden was born on the 30th of April in 1996 and his parents were Belinda Murphy. So spelling plays a part in this, but we'll get to that in a moment. And his father's name was Brett Leske. The the relationships in this case are so complex and intertwined. Bear with us while we try and get through it. I loved one way someone put it in one of the podcasts I was listening to was that it's not a family tree, it's a family forest.

5:52 Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Complicated, that's. So complicated. So just quickly with the spelling of the names, I don't think there is one person in this case whose name is spelled in the typical way you would think it is spelled. So Belinda is BILYNDA. Jayden is JAIDYN, Belinda's sister. I don't know if you know this, but Belinda's sister and she was born Katie Kat i.e and she changed her name by deed Paul to Katie KADEE. Yeah, and she was sorry before her time. Like, it's one way of putting it in that like, that seems to be a name.

6:37 Like Katie is like that name is used in Mean Girls. Yeah. I mean, and that didn't come out until well into the 2000s. Yeah. We're talking 1997 here. Yeah. Well before she, well before that when she changed her name, that that name was was not a common name by any means. Like I wonder, I'd love to know what made her do that or made her. But then Belinda's parents spelling, I mean, yeah, spelling her name in that way as well. Like one boy named Katie, which is very, very. Typical to be the name. In Australia, and that's the thing that then Belinda to come along and like and not spell it.

7:11 Yeah. I wonder if that was a bit of like, jealousy in terms of a bit of uniqueness that Belinda had that then Katie was like, well, I want to be unique, too, yeah. I recognize. This probably. There certainly is a theme. Yeah. Do you want to get into one? Well, before we do, do you want to like paint a picture a little bit, I think of the actual town, Maui, which I think is another character in this story. So all these, all these took place in a town named Maui, which is in Gippsland in the Latrobe Valley in Victoria.

7:42 And Maui is an interesting place. It's a, it's a small town, but big enough that it has, you know, shopping, all those sorts of things. There are, there is definitely. It was at one stage a very thriving small place in that it was where of the power stations were situated when when power was a government run service. But in the mid 90s, which is when this takes place, it was privatised and so the plants were shut down in Moi and therefore employment in the town of Moi was non existent. So a lot of people moved out.

8:17 It was so minimal people there as the employment rate dropped massively created a lot of issues around the town. But it meant that the demographic of the area changed a lot in that in many ways the government had this great grand idea as well of that it seemed like a very since that the housing prices dropped so dramatically, it was a great opportunity for the government to find cheap and free housing for single mothers. So it meant that the area grew in terms of people who were on a lot of government benefits, those sorts of things.

8:50 But not only that, the area was due to the the plant itself that that's there and the coal mining in the area for the electricity, There are a lot of health issues related to that as well. So people that are living in the era have have been affected ongoing with these that with the with health issues due to the thermal power plants and due to the high levels of exposure from the pollution from the open cut mines. So another area, area needed in in the town of Maui was also that there's been a decline in well there's been an increase in developmental delays in children.

9:27 So children that are born in the area where the school entry age they were in around the 90s, et cetera. It was at about a 15% of children starting school were starting with a developmental delay. Now in comparison, the Australian average is 11%. And I looked at also the, the data from Casey Council, which would be kind of the nearest suburban area that I could that I thought was a comparative area of like, you know, you'd more built up area. So not quite not as rural as Maui, but the but a similar demographic, you know, that it just borders on sort of to where you're heading towards Maui.

10:11 Now. The average there is 8.2% of children needs developmental delays. So in comparing that to 15%, it's a huge difference. So there is clearly something in the water of Maui that's causing some health issues and also then ongoing developmental needs with children. So that's what sets the scene of the kinds of people who live in Maui. Yep. So the characters then we then we meet in this story some very what we would call in Australia here bogans. Totally, Yeah. I mean, I think, I think it's just like widely accepted that Maui and the term bogan are synonymous.

10:51 Especially after this guy, it's totally related. It became a media storm around it. Yeah, it was became a bit of a. Show Yeah, yeah, I I was listening to Andrew Rules podcast in researching this and he made a really he said a really interesting quote that I've written down and it's about the Township. So he said it's not only the story of a battered baby, but of where he came from, a place of broken families and broken hearts, shattered trust and broken dreams. So I think I mean, it really gets you that quote, doesn't it?

11:26 And he's so right. Like it is a place of broken families. As you were saying, this is where there's a lot of housing Commission families living there, a lot of single mums and their children, and that's kind of what the town has become and still is. I read that the population was something like 72% single mums. Yeah, Like that's, that's incredibly. That's a lot, yeah. A lot. Yeah, that's, I mean, yeah, yeah, that's huge. So the characters in this case, we've got Belinda Murphy as I mentioned before, who was Jayden's mum, Brett Leskey, who was Jayden's dad.

12:03 And Katie kind of comes into comes into the picture really early on because Katie was actually married to Brett Leski first. I think most of the day like fates for today, they I don't know that well. They probably got divorced eventually. But during this period of that we're focusing on here for the Leskis. Brett and Katie were married. And he was engaged to Belinda up until not, not while this case was ongoing. Actually, it was they sort of split for good about 12 months, I think before this all happened.

12:38 But they were he was actually engaged to Belinda. So Brett and Katie were married and then Katie suspected that he was cheating on her and found out that he was actually cheating on her with Belinda. She. Already she kind of knew that already that it was. Yeah, her youngest sister, I think there's three years or something, something between them. Yeah. So Brett and Belinda were together for, I think about three years. Yeah, so 'cause Brett's shirt, first shirt on the scene when Belinda was only 13.

13:12 Yeah, apparently even their mum sort of spied this whole that Brett had a bit of an eye for the younger. Sister. Yeah. So, yeah, and then she was only 13 at the time, which, you know, it's a bit. She's too young to be having some guy look her up and down. Yeah. So, and obviously, Ballin Ballin, sorry, Katie and Brett got together when she was pregnant and Brett believed it was with his child, but it was not, was it? No. I don't think there's any relationship that doesn't include infidelity in this.

13:48 My, they're all, they all overlap and they all, yeah. So Brett and Belinda had a baby together, first of all a daughter, and she was born about 2 1/2, two years I think before Jayden was born. Yeah, yeah, Roughly, yeah, because it's yeah. Or is it? No, it's about 18 months, I think. Yeah, they're pretty close in age. And then Brett actually owned a business with a man named Greg. Now. OK, just quickly on names. There are two ways I've heard Greg's surname said, and we're not quite sure which one's correct, so I'll say it both ways and then from then on we will just call him Greg, so.

14:36 Lot like knocking out tongues all his twists. Very. That's it. So I've heard his name him be called Greg Domasevic or Greg Domasevic. My inkling would be to say Domasevic, but I actually don't know whether that's right or not. Anyways, but Greg, Greg and Brett were best friends. They owned a business together and that is how Greg was introduced into this story and he and Belinda were having an affair. Well, Katie actually orchestrated that. Yeah, because she was not real happy about her younger sister obviously now being with Brett.

15:14 With Brett. So. She things were going better than the relationship between Brett and Katie because they've been together much longer. Yeah, and two kids together, two kids together. I think even at that stage Katie had had a third child to 1/3 bloke. Yeah. So. Yeah. So things were going well for Belinda and Brett in a lot of ways. So. Yeah, so she thought she'd and make sure that didn't last. Yeah, orchestrate, you know. Yeah, and I, from all accounts, from what I can gather, Greg was aware of what Katie was doing.

15:45 Like he was part of it. He was like, yeah, sure, I'll do that. You know, like I'll split them up with you. No worries. It wasn't like she was just putting them in front of each other and hoping for the best. It was a full blown plan. Actively pursuing it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's a. That's an interesting one, yeah. When Brett found out, because I think they were sort of seeing it, obviously seeing each other in secret at the start, they didn't want anyone to know. But Brett eventually found out and he left.

16:14 He picked up and left and went to Perth, couldn't have gotten further away if he tried. And so at the time of this incident, there is absolutely no doubt Brett wasn't involved at all because he was living in Perth and that's all been proven and. He left for Perth too, was due to something the cops were looking into as well. So oh. Go on. Oh yeah, no, we don't hear that. Yeah, I did hear that. And once someone podcast I was listening to that it was there was a payment that went into Belinda's bank account, like a child support payment of some sort, government payment that went missing.

16:49 And clearly it was taken by someone who had her bank. And so when Belinda raised that with him that the cops were looking into this because she had reported it, he he split. OK, I didn't realize that I knew. I knew he looked quite abruptly, but I actually didn't realize that was why. Yeah, Yep. So we'll get into exactly what happened with Jade, and I think now it kind of leads in into that. So Jayden was 18 months old when this happened. No, 14 months old. Yeah, 14 months old at the time of at the time.

17:22 I said I remember, I mean, I remember this case in 1997. I was, gosh, I must have been 16. So you know, it was a Philly old enough to remember all this like happening in real time. And but when I heard how old he was in my first documentary, I looked at it was like, God, was he really that young? Like to me, I had this two to three-year old in my brain me. Too, And even when I look at photos of him now when I was researching this, he does look older than 14 months old. Like maybe it was the way he was dressed, I'm not sure.

17:53 But when I'm now putting it together, I feel like it's the way he was talked about because, well, I mean, this is, I think, very rap valid. So Greg, who became his boyfriend, but he was also the babysitter, you know, so he he wanted to spend time with Jayden and was. With Jayden, yes, he. Didn't want the girls. Rihanna, which is the oldest sister, he didn't want to spend time with her. He. He. His his fascination or his his interest in Jayden was. Creepy and it was he's kind of like he's, you know, this little man needs male attention to be brought up like A and needs to be wound up like a yeah, he had to be a man be around.

18:32 And so the way he he's talked about of like spending time with Greg. Yeah. Was around, you know, they played PlayStation together and they worked on cars together and they went fishing together. It's a full time mind. Yeah. That's got to be a kid older than 14 months. Totally. That's a baby, a 14 month old. Whereas keep sitting on a couch somehow interacting with Playstations or something or, you know, going fishing. That's not that's not a whole thing wrong. And that like, I mean, but that's I guess coming from the perspective of a different style of parenting.

19:02 Absolutely, absolutely. This will come into play later on, but Greg, while he was the babysitter and actively sought to babysit Jayden on numerous occasions, this wasn't the first time he'd babysat him. He'd done it before. I think for Belinda, she probably almost relished in the fact that somebody was willing to help her out. She was a single mum at that time. I had to do what she wanted to do, which was, you know. Go out and get drunk. Yeah, yeah. If she didn't go out and have a few drinks, like for her, like it was full binge drinking when she'd go.

19:41 Like not just, I'm not saying she did that every day, but when she did go, it was like, I'm writing myself off. That's, you know, I'm not, I'm not mum, I'm partying and I'm yeah, out to do that. So on the 14th of June in 1997, they, Belinda and Katie were going to a party and. They, the party was in Traralgon, which is about 30 kilometres east of Maui, and it was a house party, I believe. And Katie's then boyfriend was also attending the party. So Katie had actually organized another babysitter to come over and look after her two children and then also look after Jayden and Brianna.

20:23 I want. To say they're cousins, but they're also siblings. Like half. Siblings like it's Oh my God, yeah, because they're aunties and it's just it's all a bit uncles and dads and it's all very into yeah. So. So Linda is not only Jaden's mother, but also his auntie? Yep. Because she's Brett's sister-in-law. She's married. He's married to his sister. Yeah. Anyway, let's just don't go there. Cousins. So this babysitter was meant to be looking after the four children. Well, the mum's and the mum's partner went out to this party and Greg decided that he actually wanted to have Jayden and look after him and kind of almost begged Belinda to have him.

21:11 Like she'd already organized a babysitter. She was like, no, it's taken care of. But he decided he wanted to have Jayden and she sort of relented eventually. And So what ended up happening was they she packed a bag for Jayden with some nappies, some clothes, some toys, a bottle to kind of get him through and said that Greg could have Jayden for a few hours. And then the idea was that he would drop Jayden to the babysitter, you know, a few hours later so that she could look after those four kids until I guess the following day or whatever it had been arranged.

21:45 You have to be said, I mean, he he was very keen to look after Jayden, but he'd previously babysat him and Jayden had been injured. From reports there were physical abuse happening already to Jayden in those babysitting days. Yeah, so he'd been slapped across the face. Yeah, someone who'd he'd been washing his yeah, witness pushing him over and he's he would have barely been walking at 14. Months that's what got me like yeah, he he was yeah pushing him over when he's like learning to walk and things.

22:12 It was just in it's crazy horrible. He also it was only a few days prior to this occurring he had actually shaved Jayden's head into it's disgusting. So he had Greg had a particular hairstyle and of the 90s at the time mullets were in and he had shaved his head so that the front of it was a receding hairline similar to his own. Penny a beautiful picture of this man already and then he had cut the back of it and into a like some shapes and things. Yeah, people put triangles and squares into the like, shaved it into the.

22:46 Backwards and back. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which becomes a little bit relevant later on too. Yeah, it does. Yeah. But he so he wasn't. He didn't treat him like a baby, that is for sure. Not at all. Question was really angry at him for doing that too. And that I, you know, I'm not blaming her at all, but it's interesting that she's then allowed him because I think that the incident with a haircut had had only happened a few days before, hadn't. It Yeah, I'm sorry, but who is letting their baby let me left with a man who's just done that to their kid?

23:19 And a 20 like he's a 29 year old man with no children of his own like it. I don't know. It's. I'm sure she lives with the guilt of that every single day of her life. She would, of course, she would blame herself and wish she'd done things differently. But that's not the way it all panned out. Yeah. Yeah. So Belinda and Katie and her boyfriend left their home at about 8:00 PM to head for this party. And I think so. I think at that stage Belinda had assumed Jayden would have been dropped off to the babysitter and she'd tried to call Greg and not being able to get through to him, but they decided to go on and go to the party anyway.

24:04 But as soon as they got to Traralgon, to the house, she tried calling Greg again. And I think she said she tried calling him between 15 and 20 times between getting there and when she was actually able to get onto him, which I think was at about 10:00 PM. Is that right? Yeah, well, I think even she doesn't actually recall those phone calls, Yeah, with how much alcohol she'd consumed over the night, but the phone records show that. So she actually got through to him at 11:00 PM? Yeah, that night when she gets through to him at 11:00 PM, he says to her, shit's happened.

24:42 And he and that Jayden had burned his bottom on a heater and that he'd had to take him to a hospital. And they apparently he took him to one hospital and they applied a cream, but he wasn't happy with that. So he decided to take him to another hospital for a second opinion and Belinda was a bit beside herself and was panicked and said to her sister, I need to get home, I need to go and see what's going on and sort out what's happening with Jayden. And her sister said Oh no, no, no, Greg's a jokester, let's ring him back and see what's going on.

25:17 Which? Was like, he's well known for pranks and ridiculous pranks at the heart. Yeah. Yeah. So I mean, that I think could be believed by her at that moment. Like he's known for having a bucket of fish guts. Yeah, put. Full pranks where he would get a syringe and draw up the fish guts and then and put it in his enemies air vents so that the whole house would then stink of fish. Scouts. You know, like, like he was known for that stuff. To make a joke about a child is so off it's not even funny. But it sort of speaks to the type of manuals that people believed that that might have been the case.

25:56 So Katie rings Greg back, and he's like, yeah, yeah, no, it was just a joke. Now it's cool. It's cool. Don't don't come back, Don't come back. And so I think they were sort of appeased by that. And they were like, OK, well, yeah, he's being Greg's being Greg. And they kept on partying. Oh yeah, kept on being and partying and partying and drinking. Yeah, yeah. So between midnight and 1:00 AM, So the neighbor, the next door neighbor of Greg's, she rang Greg earlier in the night to talk to him because she lent one of his friends money or something and Greg was going to pay her back something really weird, something like that.

26:42 And she eventually got onto him. They had a chat. And you know, that kind of was the end of that. Between midnight and 1:00 AM, that neighbor heard Greg's car start and she is 100. She is adamant to this day that it was between midnight and 1:00 AM and that's really important for the timeline of this story. It wasn't at 3:00 AM or two between 2:00 and 3:00 AM when he went to pick Belinda up from the party. It was definitely between midnight and 1:00 AM. Yeah, which the phone calls also align I think with that where there was more phone calls being called and no one answering.

27:20 Yeah. So I mean yes someone can be home and ignoring your phone call, but it it lines up that he wasn't answering phone calls at that. Time either Yeah, that's it.

27:31 So at this stage, nobody knows what's happened between 1:00 AM and 2:00 or 3:00 in the morning when Belinda rings Greg to pick her up from Traralgon, and he leaves. And his version of events is that he leaves Jayden on the couch in front of the heater, sleeping, and he leaves to pick Belinda up from Ryan's Bar, which is where they ended up after the house party in Traralgon. And he tells her at that point, he tells Belinda at that point that Jayden is at Maryvale Hospital. That one that was still being built, Yep.

28:13 Did exist here? Yep. Wasn't fully functional as a hospital, certainly I don't think at the time had an emergency department. So it's not something, you know, you couldn't just rock up there and be treated at whatever time of night. The other interesting thing, which I find this just to me screams of the fact that he's guilty is that he actually took Belinda's favorite drink, which is Jack Daniels with him in the car and actively encouraged her to keep drinking when they get home. Oh, sorry. On the way home, Belinda thinking that Jayden's in hospital, she says to Greg, you've got to take me to the hospital.

28:55 Let's not go home. I need to go to the hospital. And he convinced her that she shouldn't go to the hospital because she was so inebriated. It wouldn't look good. Yeah, he really manipulated her in that sense of like, you know, that this, this would look good on you as a mother, like not on him for having letting the child get injured on the on the heater, etcetera. Like, but this would look, look bad on you because you left the baby with me and you're drunk and yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's that's exactly right.

29:24 Like he's he's already starting to shift the blame, so he eventually convinces her to go home to his house with him. And they get there and what has happened? Meg the pig's head. This is this is where the story just goes bananas. Yeah, which is, which is, you know, this is where I think Maui really just comes to its forefront that this isn't, this is one thing's happening which is bad, which then is thrown entirely over another bit of stupidity, really at the end of the day. So there is a another lot of people we need to introduce at this point.

30:01 Yeah. So Greg was seeing a girl be prior to Belinda of the name of Yvonne Penfold. And then he was pretty obsessed with Yvonne. He was, he wanted to maintain that relationship, but. And she'd maintain it. They were having an affair. Yeah, yeah. But she was pretty done. And but more so than her being done, her brother was done with this relationship. Kenny Penfold. So Kenny had decided that that's it, you're not no more of this Greg business. He was, because he wasn't only just a bit of a weirdo, he was abusive towards Yvonne as well.

30:37 Yeah, I think. Forensically, when they did a forensic sweep of Greg's house after Jayden's disappearance, they actually found Yvonne's blood in his bathroom. Yeah. Which was, you know, just goes to show that he'd obviously been physically abusive and had caused substantial injury to her in his house previously. Yeah. So Kenny had decided he wanted some revenge on Greg and to ensure that this relationship was done with his sister. So he got together a couple of them and they went to stake out direct Greg's house and they took with them some things to throw at the house, which we'll bring up later.

31:17 But so they sat on the the railway line opposite Greg's house to stake out make sure was there anyone home before they could head over the road and implement their plan. So whilst they sat on the side of the railway line waiting for Greg to leave the house. This is gold. So because this became quite an issue of like who who did this? The cops were looking at why this occurred. Oh, where do I even start? I know, let's let's move forward. So they see on the railway line waiting for to leave. They see him leave and they go for it.

31:55 They go across the road and they throw at his house a pigs head so this smashes a window. Or the pigs? No, they tried. They tried to use the pig's head to smash a window. Turns out you can't use a pig's head to smash a window. I did not know. Yes, apparently it ricocheted. My back pocket remind me of why. Steph, why? If you want to smash a window, don't use a pig's head. They tried twice and it didn't break the window, so they picked up rocks and threw rocks to break the window and the pig's head was actually found in the front yard.

32:25 The front. Yard, you know, hadn't quite, you know, gone through the window. Sorry. Keep going. The pig's head is relevant in that apparently Greg had him and Yvonne had actually got a pig to fatten it up and you know, to have so they had it like as a pet to then fatten up and kill and have for later. So they that's why they decided to use a pig's head. I think they'd gone and done this to the pig and obviously they had it hanging in their bathroom to then do what they need to do to to slaughter a pig, but took the head and decided to throw that at his house.

32:54 So in the cops need to rule out then what what their part in this was or like, did they then smash that front window and then abduct Jayden? When the cops spoke to them, Kenny very politely let them know that there's evidence to suggest to show that where he was and what he was doing that evening. And so he took the police over to the railway line to show them, as one journalist put it, the solid evidence of being on the Royal Railway line. So this solid evidence I have just, I love Australia and This is why, because every podcast I've listened to have described this in a different way.

33:37 And the wording is just. God, I love go. So, as I said, his solid evidence that was over on the railway line was also described as a petrified pile of feces. OK. Said Turd. I was hoping Turd had been there. What? Kenny had done is a shit as he was waiting out to throw this pig's head and then. When you gotta go, you gotta go you. Gotta go when you gotta go when you gotta go when you don't even have toilet paper. So instead of using toilet paper, obviously, he ripped off the pocket of his shirt and wiped his ass with that.

34:17 I mean, surely that it wouldn't have been clean. It wouldn't have been great. Sorry what probably lucky for him who did that because it it showed timeline. It showed that the way that they were actually where they said they were when they said they were there, they. Were lying. They were fessing up for this crime entirely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And they just chose the wrong night to do what they did. I think ultimately, yes, that's what I mean. Obviously, you know in the trial it was trying to be put forward that these two things were related when unfortunately.

34:54 It was in you think how could it not be related but? Yeah, I believe it's hidden in in a garden bed and a kid missing you've, I mean many people. In the same house, yeah. Those things together, whereas these things were unfortunately to me seemed to be completely unrelated. Fully agree. It was just bad timing for you to decide tonight's the night we're going to get Greg. Yeah, Yeah. So that's the side note of that occurs just. I'll have a good turd. Side note. Too many cases we get a, we get a turd.

35:29 Side note, but let's take it when we get it. So after coming home to the shattered window and pig's head in the front yard, Greg convinces Belinda to be taken home. Like he he insists on taking her back to her place. And he does so. And that happened at about 3:35 AM. And as he was driving home from dropping Belinda home now just very quickly as well, she was so intoxicated at this time, apparently she just went home and went straight to sleep. She completely passed out. So she was probably not even with it enough to to have the thought to figure out where Jayden was.

36:12 And Greg had pretty much said that he was still in hospital and being cared for by the doctors and nurses, so she probably felt like he was in the best place for him at the time. Whether or not she even had the forethought to think that through, I don't know. Anymore that she could have. I don't think she was capable of that other point too, and she needed to. Sleep it off. Sleep it off. Yeah. So that's exactly what she did. Went to sleep on her couch on the way home from dropping Belinda, and he was headed back to his place.

36:40 Greg was pulled over by the cops. Now let's just put into context where he's at. By his account at this time, he's had a pig's head thrown at his house and windows smashed. He's been looking after a child who is now in hospital with an injury. He gets pulled over by this cop because he was speeding, he was breathalysed and he wasn't over. He was. He hadn't been drinking. They're doing kind. Yeah, but at that stage, drug testing wasn't available, so it was a breath O or nothing. And he didn't mention any of that to the cop who pulled him over.

37:22 Curious, isn't it? Yeah, so. He was already convinced. Well, he's already told Belinda that he knew who had thrown the pig's head. Yep. And he had when that when he saw that he did rummage through the house and look through cupboards and things like that. And he states to this day that he was doing that because he thought that maybe Jayden had gone and hidden somewhere, you know, being scared by these people who had thrown the pig's head. And so I think. I guess. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, his account of what actually happened once they figured out that Jayden hadn't been taken to a hospital, Yeah.

37:58 Was that he'd just left Jayden asleep on the couch when he went to pick Belinda up. Yeah. So as he's concocting this ball story as time goes on, I mean, I think for him, when he came home to see the pigs head, he was like, oh, you beauty. This gives me an excuse. And he's overtime tried. I mean, I don't think he's the smartest tool in the shed. So that's taken him a while and he's come up with several iterations of this story. But he's used that to his advantage. Yeah. And at 5:00 in the morning, he goes over to Belinda's house, wakes her up and says, oh, my God, I I have to tell you, Jayden's been kidnapped and he's not in hospital.

38:36 I didn't wanna worry you. I thought I'd find him. So they go straight to the police station and report. Yeah. To which Belinda even says to the police at that .0 This is just, you know, great making up stories again and you know, and playing pranks and stuff. He's fine. He's at the hospital. Like who? Because I mean, at this point she would have still been drunk. I mean like for. Sure. This was an hour and a half after it. She's passed out on the couch, you know? You know. Yeah, she's had 100 per evidence that it's, you know, she's out of there.

39:04 She's not with it enough. And even her own words are that she did. It didn't really sink in for her until later in that day when it was a news story where she heard, you know, that this baby's gone missing in Maui, that she, it registered for her of like, Oh my God, he's been abducted. He's not at hospital. Because like her story to the cops the whole time, she's so bamboozled and confused of like, you know, no, no, he's in hospital. You need to go and get him from the hospital. I don't know why I'm here telling you that he's been abducted.

39:30 That's that's Greg's stupid story he's telling, but he's at the hospital. Because that's what you'd wanna believe. You, you. You couldn't. You couldn't probably fathom the thought that the person that you trusted to look after your child had. You wouldn't down to believe that, would you? Like, you know, that makes it somehow your fault. Yeah, sure. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah, I mean, it's so incredibly tragic, but it was interesting when he was pulled over by the cops, they noticed he was a bit damp.

40:00 Yeah, which, yeah, at that point they didn't realize. Why or why? But having said that, that it doesn't, it still doesn't marry up with the timeline because when did he get out? When did he get wet? Like it doesn't because they what they the cop story now or after the fact is that they think that when he got pulled over, Jaden was probably in the boot. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And and that, Can you imagine being the cop that had pulled him over knowing that that's what the theory was? I mean, he was, he wouldn't.

40:35 I mean, you wouldn't need to go, oh, let's me check your boot, 'cause you might have a toddler in there. Yeah. Because, yeah, it wasn't for thought. I mean, they, they, he was known to the cops, but it wouldn't have been known to the cops that he would potentially have jaded him with him at that stage. To the cops, but not for murder of a young child. You know more for stupid. Pranks, yeah. Yeah, that's it. Yeah, yeah. Messing around and generally being unemployed and a nuisance to the community.

41:03 So I guess what then came to pass was that, you know, Belinda's obviously realized that, oh, my God, he is actually missing and he's not in the hospital. And it all sort of came as a as a bit of a sudden shock. Yeah. And it was a very, very, very long time between that date and the date that Jayden's body was found. Greg was absolutely boosted immediately. In March, I think it was like nearly it was July, Yeah. It was charged on the 16th of July 1997. So he went missing on the 15th of June. So one month later they did charge him with the murder.

41:44 They felt they had enough evidence based on the small things they had already found, which included some blood soaked tissues which were rolled up as if shoved up a nose or in an ear or something. But and they contain Jayden blood and they were found in the rubbish bin out the front of his house. Yeah, the fact that he was the person in sole charge of Jaden was the last. Person to see Jaden alive, Yeah. All those sorts of, they felt that that was enough at that point to arrest him. And so he was, yeah, charged on the 16th of July.

42:15 It's worth noting that it's not. A body yet? No. It was worth noting as well that they it was all circumstantial evidence. They didn't have any hard evidence at this point. No. And I mean, they had to act, I suppose this this case got so much media coverage. There was a lot of pressure from the community to for this case to be solved. So Greg was actually charged in the July and it wasn't until the 1st of January of the following year of 1998 that his body, that Jayden's body was found. And I believe that the circumstances around that would just, it was so incredibly lucky.

42:55 There would have been a less than. So he was his body was found in Blue Rock Dam and which is I think about 18 kilometers outside of Maui. And a family was picnicking by the lake and or by the dam. And it was just one of those instances in time. I think it was a fairly remote area. Not many people frequented that spot. And there was a less than 24 hour period where the coroner has said that the body would have floated to the top before then sinking again just due to temperatures. Just due to temperatures, yes.

43:32 And that that and had been particularly cool. That stage, it was only just warming up. So it just, it was just literally everything aligned, Yeah. To ensure there was someone there to see it in that short period of time. The temperature was just right. Yeah, it was, yeah. They said the coroner said that due to the the really cold winter and the fact that it it hadn't yet warmed up into summer temperatures, Jayden's body was quite well preserved. Another thing that sort of allowed the body to float up was the fact that his body had been wrapped in a sleeping bag and weighed down with a crowbar.

44:07 And it looks as though from from the evidence of the sleeping bags, once it was looked into, that the fish had actually eaten a lot of the stitching away. And so that sort of released the body from the bag and was able to, he was able to float to the surface. So his body was obviously, I mean the family raised the alarm, his body was identified and apparently he was quite easily visually identified. So that goes to show just how well after 6 odd months in the water, how well his body was preserved.

44:40 Well, there was a question mark at one stage over that of like whether or not he had been alive for a period of time before being thrown in the dam. And one of the things they did look at was the length of his hair. Yeah. And it was thought that his hair was longer than when it was be prior to pulling to leaving him because as we said, he had had the haircut from Greg and she thought his hair looked longer and so did that it was just because it was wet. Yeah, so, so it did look longer. And they also said that the skin kind of recedes a little bit and and because there's no blood, you know, necessarily left in the body, it can make features look more pronounced or hair look longer.

45:17 Yeah. So I think that was found to be a moot point. But I know the defense definitely used that as as one of the things that sort of dispelled or that I guess supported their case. Time for the doubt in the the jury's mind. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. So they with the body in the lake, they sent police divers in to see what else they could retrieve and they found. So along with Jaden's body, they found the sleeping bag that I was just talking about that he'd been wrapped in the crowbar, which was proven to be Greg's eventually that had come from his house.

46:00 They found baby boots, a bottle, a bib. There was some evidence to show that the so they they tried to forensically test and look for DNA on especially on the bib and the bottle. Unfortunately the DNA evidence wasn't conclusive. There was also found some, there was blood found on the bib that was shown at the time to be from an unknown female donor. So again the defence used that in their case. But it was later proven that there was actually just cross contamination from an error in the laboratory processes.

46:41 So that was actually dispelled and the DNA evidence just couldn't be used. But unfortunately that was found out after the trial. It was found out during the inquest and due to double jeopardy laws in Victoria, once Greg had been found not guilty of this crime, which is what eventuated, he couldn't be tried for it again. So, well, things have changed now. Yeah, yeah. If there's new, fresh and compelling evidence that that definitely can come into play. But I think that's not going to happen necessarily in this case with those particular pieces of evidence.

47:26 Not that that wouldn't bring anything more forward. I mean, the other thing was with the bib, Belinda said that was not an item that she gave to Greg that morning. So that threw a little bit as well of like that. There were items in that we've found with Jayden, they were not at Greg's house. They had to have been things. He potentially bought the sleeping bag as well and the bib. I believe they think that he has gone back to Belinda's house and quite possibly when he took her home or whatever, grabbed a couple of extra things to be able to put it all together and put the body in the dam.

48:02 So there's more evidence that it wasn't someone else because it was someone who could have, who had access to. Belinda's house. In that time period, yeah, to gather those things as well and. That also then supports the theory that he disposed of Jaden's body after dropping Belinda and before going back to her at 5:00 AM. So at some point between 3:00, 30 and 5:15, when he got back to Belinda's house, yeah, yeah, he's disposed of Jayden's body. And I mean the. Cops sort of said that it's a tight timeline and it's part of like what the defence used, yes, against them as well because it is a very tight timeline.

48:43 That if you put it together from the 335 being pulled over by the police after just dropping Belinda, he then has to have gone back to his house, gathered things, driven from there, which is in a 15 roughly 15 minute drive out to Blue Rock Dam. Yep. Wade it out into the water. And to be able to put Jayden where he was in the water, he would have to wade it out waist deep into the water to put the body there back in again, got in the car another 15 minute drive back to his house, got rid of those wet clothes, taking them off, which there was wet clothing found in the washing basket, which unfortunately we're not tested at all.

49:21 But it was cited that there was wet clothing. So could that have just been from who knows what, But there was wet clothing there. So take removed all of that, got dressed again, all those things, got back in his car and then driven back to Belinda's by 5 sort of 4:45-ish to tell her actually we need to go to the cops because Jaden's missing. He's not at the hospital to then be at the police station by 5:00 AM. Yeah, but it's a tight, tight timeline. But it's. Doable. Doable. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The other thing worth noting is that the cops also found $600.00 worth of wet notes, banknotes under his mattress drying out.

50:03 Yeah. Now a couple of things that that makes, I mean. We know questions. I know I've. Got so many questions. If you know you've waited getting out into weight or into water to dispose of a body, why would you keep a wallet with that much money in it in your pocket? But then he was he was probably.

50:21 Questions. Never end. What was he? Yeah, yeah, He'd actually given Belinda like $70.00 that night apparently, too, and said to her go out and have a great time. So yeah, God only knows where he got this money from. He wasn't working at the time he. Wasn't. A job. Yeah. The. I think it's interesting the prosecution's case was that. Oh, and I'm sorry. So when, while he was in prison awaiting the trial, he supposedly confessed to several inmates about the crime and about what he'd done, and one of the inmates who had nothing to gain from telling this story because he was due to be released anyway, there was no benefit to him to.

51:02 Actually approached him, not the other way around. Whereas I think there were three that came forward. Yes, two of them questionable. Yeah, the third one. Is credible. Yeah. Because he had nothing to gain from telling it. And as you said, the cops went to him, not the other way around. Yeah. And he said that Greg had said to him that the car that he was working on his car in the backyard and the car was up on blocks and on Jack's. Was it OK? Yeah. Well, was it? Yeah. And that the car's fallen and.

51:32 And hit Jayden somehow and, like, fallen onto Jayden. Now I've seen an interview with Greg and this was a fairly recent ish interview of course on where he goes. Well it couldn't have been that the car was on blocks because I had it on a ramp. I'm like, Oh my. God. So I immediately went to go and find the crime scene photos. Yep after hearing that exact interview Yep of him saying that it wasn't even on Jack. Yep it was on ramps. So the crime scene photo from that day, like follow that exact on the 15th of June when they took photos off his garage.

52:02 I cannot cannot see any evidence of any ramps. So the car is sitting there on the ground, yes. So Jax is the only option here because. There's no ramp, right? I'm assuming like a ramp for a car would be made out of metal. Metal of some sort, or even to move. Around. Like it would be, it would be a construction of some sort sitting there. You've got to see in those photos, this car is on that ground. There is no nothing. Even in the garage, you can see that he's got some ramps that he's moved them to the side or anywhere else.

52:35 It's a very clear photo of the car. So I, I know I sort of looked at that and went, I mean, this guy does not tell the truth at any point. His story changed a million times over. But at that point in that interview, I was like, if he's lying about that to this point where all these years, and I remember hearing that back in 1997 that the car had fallen off the jacks and, and apparently that had done that to him at one stage and he had injured himself. But that makes a lot of sense to the injuries on Jayden.

53:05 He had a very severely broken arm in the in the autopsy. And a skull. Fracture too, which is what actually killed him. But there was talk of that, you know, at the time was the theory was that he had that Jacks had fallen and and crushed his arm to which he then couldn't get the baby to stop crying and all these sorts of things. And that's when he's maybe hit him with the crowbar to stop him crying and. That's actually, I think the other thing worth noting is on autopsy, they also found that there was a drug in Jayden's system that was used to treat Parkinson's disease.

53:39 Yeah, the like a query where that would have come from for would he've had I? Think it's still not? It's still not known to this day how he had it. Yeah, but it marries up with the whole theory of there being an injury that's so severe that he's like, I'll drug this kid up to chop to, you know, so that then maybe Berlin defines him tomorrow morning kind of going, oh, he's got a broken arm. How do you do that? Maybe it was my fault. Yeah. But obviously that wouldn't have worked with this, with the severe break that it was.

54:05 The baby would have still been crying or whatever upset and it's then escalated that he's done done more to the baby. Yeah, and drugged him. So apparently the drug can cause hallucinations and like out of body experiences, especially in the doses that was given to him. The other thing I found really interesting about the autopsy report is the contents of Jaden's stomach. So this is a 14 month old child. At 14 months old, I would say a lot of kids are probably still eating, you know, family type foods.

54:42 They're eating. They might be starting on a, on a little sandwich or they're eating little rice crackers. They're eating fruit. The only things that were found in Jayden's stomach were hot chips and Coca-Cola. The Coca Cola's even found in a bottle like at the house I think. So for somebody who was so keen to look after a child, he certainly didn't have the skill set or the knowledge behind the needs of a 14 month old to be able to take that on. Anyway, I just thought that was interesting. Interesting to note.

55:16 So the injury is sustained to Jaden. I mean, as you just said, before the injury to his head, the skull fracture was his ultimate cause of death. The arm fracture had been attempted to be sort of bandaged up. As like a wood. Splint. Yeah, and a bad, I believe it like a well, a loose fitting bandage by the time they found him. But that's where I sort of I, I feel like there is weight to that whole theory of one injury occurring him sort of going, I can fix that, Yeah. And it not going to plan and then going what else do I do here?

55:54 Yeah, instead of taking him to get the medical attention needed at the time. I mean, I just think it was an accident, possibly the first incident, like if it was a broken arm. I mean, as horrible as these as it sounds, these things do happen. And it's not, you know, necessarily an intentional cause. But then Greg's actions were certainly with the intent to cover it up. It's not like he had Jayden's best interests at heart and Jayden's needs at heart. He's cared more about protecting himself and then, you know, seeking help.

56:31 And had he just taken Jayden to hospital with a broken arm, I'm sure questions would have been asked. I'm sure, you know, it's possible. Blinda never would have wanted to have anything else to do with him. But Jayden would still be alive today if he'd done that. Yep. In my opinion, yeah. I agree. And because the other bit of evidence that was found too, which marries up with his story, which is where where we get, I think there's elements of truth to what he said and all these in that bit. There was also a bit of skin found on the heater.

57:01 Yeah. So it did definitely indicate that there was maybe a burn that occurred as well in the day. So these kids had a pretty rough. Day He had a horrible day. Oh, God, yeah. So I mean, yeah, Not pleasant. Not at all. Not at all. Oh, little boy. Oh God, yeah. So we get to then obviously the trial, which I think it goes a little bit with what we spoke about last week and the week before with OJ with that. There's this so many misleading bits of information that have been incorporated in this trial that the defense did an incredibly good job at presenting doubt.

57:40 So I think there was plenty of evidence to, you know, suggest that. Who else could it be other than Greg? Well, yeah, they could have been the the Pig Gang. So they were known. They. Were. Known. They were known. So, yeah, I mean, unfortunately, yeah, the defense used all of that to their advantage. And where they put the well, the prosecution put all of them on the stand one after the other, thinking that that would eliminate the doubt and say, put these people on the stand who are going to speak their truth of like, no, we were there 100%.

58:13 This is what we did. We're we're up for admitting that. But that's all the part we played, even to the point where Kenny, Kenny Penfold actually admitted that the hole in the window, he, I mean, the cops looked at that and said there's no way someone could have climbed through that window and gotten in and taken Jayden because of the jagged glass. That things would have been more if you, if they'd gone in through that way, the glass would have been split in it. They would have cut themselves potentially and there was things.

58:45 Where other forced entry or anything? In persons would have been moved and therefore things were knocked over and things weren't. However, they didn't they didn't fingerprint, which could have eliminated that again that they they weren't fingerprints of theirs in the house. So that's disappointing by on on the behalf of the cops, I think however they put them on the stand and yet they told the truth, all these things. And he even said so as well as I was going with that, Kenny Penfold admitted that.

59:09 And he's a pretty well well well versed criminal. He was like, I could have got through that window. Yeah, totally. I didn't, but yeah, I could have got through that window for sure. So I mean, he was certainly not up there to lie. He was there to tell truth and not hide anything. But the defense, what he did was he used this boganism to his advantage, I guess, and he riled them up on the stand and to the point where apparently they were banging on table tops, you know, and yelling. And I mean, they were fairly easily set off these people.

59:43 They weren't. There were sort of people who you could very easily, you know, fire them, fire them up to the the point of aggression to then put into the jury's mind, well, these are aggressive people, fairly easily aggressive people. Why? Why couldn't we then jump to they could take a baby and do some pretty awful things to him? So yeah, the jury, I think unfortunately went the way they could only go because there was doubt. That's right. And I, I think the, the bar's very, very high in a criminal case that, you know, the bar to reach to, to convict somebody of a crime, especially a crime as serious as this is really high.

1:00:25 And it's high for a reason. It's, it's there so that I think there's a sort of a bit of a saying in the legal, in the legal arena that it's better to have 10 criminals go free than convict one innocent person. And so that's why the bar is set so high, so that there aren't innocent people in jail. As a community member, I find that really uncomfortable. But then if you're that one innocent person sitting in jail, then you'd want that burden of proof to be so high that you're not going to end up there.

1:00:57 So look, our legal system is far from perfect. And obviously, because, you know, there's criminals walking around here, there and everywhere. And, and I mean, there's, there's so many people getting. Into parole, etcetera, doing heinous things, absolutely, but. It is what it is in this case and. I think he, I think great lawyer, kind of summed it up at the end of the trial, though, as he was exiting the court, so the journalist asked him how do you feel about your client being found, found innocent today?

1:01:30 And he said he was not found innocent, he was found not guilty. There's a big difference. Yep. So I feel like he's almost admitting to the fact that he knows he probably did stuff, but you haven't proved your case enough. Yep. And so he goes free. Yeah. And look, as much as I think that sounds terrible, that a man who is quite clearly, you know, guilty of this crime has gone free. As you said earlier, quite possibly this was a case of an accident. Yep. Gone entirely wrong, taken too far. If he had only gone to the, you know, and admitted that there was an accident, he would have potentially then been charged with manslaughter rather than murder.

1:02:13 Yep, and the time he would have got in jail is quite possibly quite close to what he was on remand for. Well, that's what they said. That's what they said. He was on remand for 17 months. Yep. So it's quite possible he spent his time in jail that he for an you know, if if so, he's so-called. I mean I wouldn't use the word innocent either, but for a not guilty man. He spent 17 months in jail. Did he spend his? Did he do his time? That he, he was, he was deserved. Of that remains, I mean, this is the thing.

1:02:45 This is the other thing sentencing laws like. So had he been found guilty, and I think given how good his lawyer was, had he been found guilty, it wouldn't have been for murder. It would have been for manslaughter. Yeah.

1:03:01 Yeah. What what would his sentence have been anyway? It's. I mean, it's interesting to note too that so I think 2002 they attempted an inquest but it was rejected. 2006 they did do an inquest and in that inquest it was found that it was highly likely that Greg was in some way responsible for Jaden's death. But it was actually found pretty much in equivocally that he certainly did dispose of Jaden's body, which with one without the other sort of don't, don't go so. I found that really interesting because yeah, why would they find?

1:03:38 I don't know, I, I, I couldn't actually find the reasoning. You actually can read the entire finding, which is 92 pages long. So I didn't read the whole thing. Why not to be completely fair, but I find that really interesting, that on the balance of probability, they found that he was involved potentially in Jayden's death, but that he definitely disposed of the body. I, I So what? Sorry. What he actually said was he contributed to the death and that he likely disposed of the body. Yeah. So yeah.

1:04:12 I mean, at the end of the day here, unfortunately, I think Jayden's death is a culmination of poor parenting. Yeah. Is that awful of me to say? No, it's not because I. Think there was so many points here where could things could have been intervened to avoid a death of a beautiful baby boy? Yeah, yeah. He would have been 28 years old now. So the thought of that, you know, life, like his whole life has just gone. Yeah, on his on what would have been his 18th birthday, Belinda wrote a letter to him that she's actually only shared in a couple of places.

1:04:48 So if if you look for it, you can find it. It's a really heart wrenching and heartbreaking letter. She. Invented to Greg or to Jayden because in. It's to Greg on on Jayden's 18th birthday. Yeah, she basically outlines the fact that she's lost everything in Louis and Jaden. She's lost her entire family. So I'm assuming relationships have been completely fractured since. I mean, the grieving of a parent who's lost a child, I cannot even fathom it. It would ruin your life. You could never. You are living with that for the you have to live with that for the rest of your life.

1:05:32 She says in the letter that she wakes up every day and and thinks of him. She goes to sleep every night and often cries herself to sleep thinking of him and what he would be and what would be, you know, happening for him in his life at the time. The thing that I found really heart wrenching about the letter though, she says at the end of it, please, please write down what you have done and give it to somebody who can let us know once you're dead. I need to know. It's like she. Because he lied so much, it's so muddy now what the truth is, because throughout this he's changed his story so much and none of it's obviously truth.

1:06:13 I don't think there's any. But there's elements of truth. But then where are those bits of truth you can try and piece together? Becomes so complicated. Have you seen that interview with him? I think it was on. It was a Channel 9 programme. Under investigation on this case, yes. Yeah, I did. Yeah, Yeah. I don't think that he would have the brain cells to even be able. To. Recall what happened like. I think that into. Himself. And he has. He. Haven't done enough drugs over the time to just completely I don't.

1:06:43 I don't think he'd have the the frame of being the frame of mind or have the ability to to get his thoughts down on paper. Because it had said that he was, it's not an intelligence thing whatsoever. He was incredibly manipulative. So something that really stuck out to me was Belinda wrote and it's been, it's an unpublished book that she wrote and she allowed, she gave it to the Herald Sun at one stage. So snippets of it have been used in articles in OK, in the Herald Sun and also in the book written by Michael Gleason, OK.

1:07:19 And in it she talks about, and so this was sort of a roundabout at the same time as the letter she wrote to to Greg, so around about when Jayden would have been 18. So enough past time passed for clarity in some parts of this where she hadn't spoke about the fact that prior to this event, Greg would not acknowledge their relationship publicly. He, yeah, he would not, you know, show affection in public. He would not speak to anyone as if she was your girlfriend. He didn't want anyone knowing they were together and.

1:07:47 He used to call her like Les Lesky's ex misses. Yeah, it was just always he would never refer. Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. But then the day he came home from, he literally walked from the police station. He formally interviewed, yeah. About this, he walked into the house and immediately embraced her and hugged her and she said that was the first time he'd ever done that. And then beyond that, publicly, he then continued to call her his girlfriend and call and, and be affectionate. And they even, I mean, there's interviews of the two of them together, you know, and things like that shown where he is touching her, you know, So it was a real manipulation of like she in her own mind was like, this asshole's done it.

1:08:32 And then he comes home from that interview so embracingly of her that he she was like, well, how then he's clearly an innocent man because otherwise, if he had done it, he wouldn't want to speak to me like, and wouldn't be this affectionate. And so she was. It spun her out to kind of go, Oh, well, maybe he didn't do it. So what a bloody head fuck. Oh. Massively so. I I can feel empathy for that, of that manipulation from him of then. She's the most vulnerable moment in her life. When that happened, her childhood was missing at that point, Yeah, she had no idea what had happened.

1:09:06 She hadn't had a straight story from him. In fact, she'd had multiple stories from him. She didn't know what was going on. She. Even tested him at one point saying to him, would you like me to lie for you in the trial? And she is expecting him to come back with oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like tell him this, you know, like. And he didn't. He responded with, oh, no, the truth needs to be said. You just tell them exactly what you know and what what you don't. Know, I think I think that's because his lawyer had already spun what he was going to spin and he thought he'd get.

1:09:38 Off, yeah, but like for Belinda, sitting there, she was like, we didn't take the bait. So trying to convince. Her maybe he is innocent, like yeah. I see these interviews. I've watched those interviews of them together. And knowing what we know now, you can look at them in a in a bit of a different light, I suppose. And, and now that all of the evidence has come out, those interviews were done before Jaden's body had been found. Yeah. And I like, I wonder, I wonder what Belinda thinks when she looks at that now.

1:10:09 Yeah, me too. Like, I mean, she's moved on and, you know, it's got a great life. She's got 4 kids now to another man and she's married. Yeah. So she's she's living, I mean, like she's living a much better life than she was ever with Greg, that's for sure. And I'm really, really happy for her for in that. But yeah, this is something she'll live with forever. And that the questions over what happened to him will forever be, which is so sad, so very. She she was part of the the group that got together and lobbied the government to change those double jeopardy laws.

1:10:43 Yeah. Which will now allow. Look, if there's significant evidence that comes forward, if he goes blabbing his mouth to someone and someone comes forward, then he could be tried again. So if there's significant, yeah. Yeah, so I mean, we can only keep fingers crossed that yeah, something happens for her sake to know then what the real truth is. I, I feel I, I, I agree with you. That would be amazing. I just honestly don't don't that it's going to happen. No, but I think, you know, in her own, I think kudos to her to get some positive out of this that in the future, whether it's this case or another case that that means that someone gets some closure.

1:11:21 I think that that's got to give you a little bit of heart and that look, she made some wrongs here that could have avoided this possibly happening. So I guess that that's a positive out of. It for sure. Well, on that note, I think that sort of comes to the end of the case. It's sure it's incredibly sad and, oh, absolutely heart wrenching, yeah. That poor kid. Poor boy and he's so cute. Very. Photos of him you see with Rosie bring. Cheeks of cute. Yup yeah, yeah, little lovey. All right, so I guess that's it for another week.

1:11:57 We'll be back next week with a new case and we'd love it if you could like and subscribe, as all the kids say, to our social. So we've got Instagram, Facebook and at two crime besties and we're also uploading these to YouTube. So if you'd like to give us a call, please don't judge. If you'd like to give us a follow over there, we're also at 2 crime besties on YouTube. So thank you everybody for listening and we really look forward to catching up with you again next week. Dean, speak to crime. Besties stay.

1:12:36 Curious.