REPLAY - Epsiode 6 - Jaidyn Leskie

0:15 Welcome to crime besties. Back to another episode and we

0:19 are here for another true Crime Story today that.

0:22 We are. Today we're gonna be talking

0:25 about Jayden Leski. It's a really interesting case

0:29 that happened in Victoria in the 1990s.

0:32 So I've I've really enjoyed researching this one.

0:36 It's been again, it's it's one that's fairly close to where we

0:39 live. So it's been really, really

0:42 interesting to find out some extra facts about it.

0:45 The. One where I thought like there

0:46 wasn't too much to it. And I mean, I remember it

0:49 occurring and I was like fairly, oh, this is fairly

0:51 straightforward. But the more I got into it,

0:53 there was more to it. Yeah, for sure.

0:55 It's interesting. Yeah.

0:56 There were certainly things that I learnt when in researching

0:59 this. So it's it's interesting, yeah.

1:01 But before we get into it, let's have a quick chat.

1:03 What's been going on in your life?

1:05 What's been happening in the last week or so?

1:07 It's not been too bad. I've been a pretty crazy week,

1:09 but I know you've been busy with been busy planning, et cetera.

1:12 So this particular special person's birthday.

1:14 That's right, my eldest son turns 10 next week, which is so

1:19 exciting I just can't believe. He blows my.

1:20 Mind, I've been parents for decades.

1:23 He's a 10 years old and he's huge.

1:26 Like he's tall. He's almost as tall as I am.

1:28 The. Greatest human.

1:30 I just thought him, yeah, really impressed.

1:33 He he, they have a dress up day at school today and it was where

1:38 the theme was Wear it Wild. I think it was a fundraiser for

1:40 the RSPCA. Yeah.

1:42 And this is just speaks to his character.

1:44 He's gone to school dressed as a Flamingo.

1:47 True. Ollie style.

1:49 True Ollie style, 'cause he's already got the fully pink

1:51 sneakers, he has fully pink socks, socks that he's worn up

1:56 his legs, a pink Tutu. When we were in Hawaii earlier

2:01 in the year, he decided to buy himself a pink Flamingo shirt.

2:06 And then I found this, this amazing hat from I think it was

2:09 from Big W Oh my God, it is hilarious.

2:14 It's a Flamingo like sitting on top of his head.

2:16 It's very, very funny. I might even pop a photo in the

2:19 in the show. Don't see well.

2:20 I love it. It's been like just the

2:21 different emotions of the Flamingo through the morning.

2:24 Even a serious Flamingo, you know, sitting in assembly with,

2:27 yes, crazy fun Flamingo as he's got ready for the morning and I

2:30 just. And then, yeah, well, and then

2:32 disappointed Flamingo when he's found his lunch wasn't the right

2:34 one. This.

2:35 Oh, I know. I just feel like that.

2:36 It's just, it's just so classic for him like this.

2:40 I love it. I'm just obsessed.

2:43 Yeah, one of our friends went to assembly this morning and sent

2:46 us through a photo of him sitting there.

2:48 The the look on his face was hilarious.

2:49 And then he's got this giant flamingos sitting on the top of

2:52 his head. True Ollie style.

2:55 True Ollie style. So he turns 10 next week.

2:58 And I mean, what do you get a 10 year old for their birthday?

3:01 He wants. Well, actually, I'll tell you

3:03 what he asks for, he said. Mum, for my birthday this year,

3:07 I just want a hamper of all my favorite things.

3:09 It's a hamper. Hamper.

3:11 It's. He's so bougie.

3:12 He's so you turned her on. Off for a hamper.

3:17 I know, I know, I know. He just loves it and all his

3:20 favorite things. So got he's got some lollies

3:22 and, and, and some footy socks and footy cards.

3:27 He wanted some like LED strip lighting for his bedroom that's

3:31 in there. And then we also got him a

3:33 watch, which is neon pink, orange, yellow.

3:38 It's really cool. Gonna love that.

3:40 Does he have any idea that's? In well, he, he's actually asked

3:43 for it for the last few years. So he it's been on his list for

3:46 a while. So I thought.

3:48 That was your finally. I just, you know, there's when

3:50 they think that they're never gonna get it.

3:52 And then you can just go, well, I am the greatest.

3:54 I think he's gonna absolutely love it.

3:56 So yeah. So that's kept us busy.

3:58 And he's got a birthday party coming up so he's doing splat

4:02 ball, which is paintball. But it doesn't hurt for 10 year

4:05 olds and I think some of the dads are more keen.

4:08 I think the dads are gonna go to Yeah, very excited.

4:11 I want, yeah. Details.

4:12 Yeah, yeah. So yeah, it's very exciting.

4:16 Yeah, no, it's so much fun. And I mean, I love that, that he

4:19 just enjoys life, you know? And he's gonna love his party,

4:22 too, for that. It's just awesome.

4:24 He's just who he is. He's the best.

4:25 Yeah. I know it's, it's hard to

4:29 believe and I mean you, you're not that long, not that long

4:31 away until you're gonna have a 10 year old too.

4:33 It's crazy. It does blow my mind.

4:35 Yeah, crazy, crazy. And then talking about our

4:37 beautiful children. Unfortunately, today's episode

4:40 we we're going to be talking about some really horrible stuff

4:42 towards a very young baby. So I think we better do a bit of

4:45 a warning here around some of the top their content today,

4:49 because they can be quite confronting.

4:52 So and we are certainly want to be very mindful of that and

4:56 respectful because it is such a young baby and being mums

5:00 ourselves, it can like feel so much for Belinda, the mother in

5:05 this case for for certain, it's not it's not something pleasant

5:10 at all. So heads up warning for some of

5:12 the content today and we can dive in to Jayden Leski, OK?

5:19 So Jayden was born on the 30th of April in 1996 and his parents

5:26 were Belinda Murphy. So spelling plays a part in

5:30 this, but we'll get to that in a moment.

5:32 And his father's name was Brett Leske.

5:34 The the relationships in this case are so complex and

5:40 intertwined. Bear with us while we try and

5:44 get through it. I loved one way someone put it

5:46 in one of the podcasts I was listening to was that it's not a

5:49 family tree, it's a family forest.

5:52 Oh yeah. Oh yeah.

5:53 Complicated, that's. So complicated.

5:57 So just quickly with the spelling of the names, I don't

6:01 think there is one person in this case whose name is spelled

6:06 in the typical way you would think it is spelled.

6:08 So Belinda is BILYNDA. Jayden is JAIDYN, Belinda's

6:17 sister. I don't know if you know this,

6:19 but Belinda's sister and she was born Katie Kat i.e and she

6:25 changed her name by deed Paul to Katie KADEE.

6:30 Yeah, and she was sorry before her time.

6:34 Like, it's one way of putting it in that like, that seems to be a

6:37 name. Like Katie is like that name is

6:39 used in Mean Girls. Yeah.

6:41 I mean, and that didn't come out until well into the 2000s.

6:43 Yeah. We're talking 1997 here.

6:45 Yeah. Well before she, well before

6:47 that when she changed her name, that that name was was not a

6:51 common name by any means. Like I wonder, I'd love to know

6:54 what made her do that or made her.

6:58 But then Belinda's parents spelling, I mean, yeah, spelling

7:01 her name in that way as well. Like one boy named Katie, which

7:04 is very, very. Typical to be the name.

7:06 In Australia, and that's the thing that then Belinda to come

7:09 along and like and not spell it. Yeah.

7:11 I wonder if that was a bit of like, jealousy in terms of a bit

7:16 of uniqueness that Belinda had that then Katie was like, well,

7:19 I want to be unique, too, yeah. I recognize.

7:21 This probably. There certainly is a theme.

7:24 Yeah. Do you want to get into one?

7:27 Well, before we do, do you want to like paint a picture a little

7:29 bit, I think of the actual town, Maui, which I think is another

7:33 character in this story. So all these, all these took

7:36 place in a town named Maui, which is in Gippsland in the

7:40 Latrobe Valley in Victoria. And Maui is an interesting

7:44 place. It's a, it's a small town, but

7:46 big enough that it has, you know, shopping, all those sorts

7:49 of things. There are, there is definitely.

7:51 It was at one stage a very thriving small place in that it

7:55 was where of the power stations were situated when when power

7:59 was a government run service. But in the mid 90s, which is

8:04 when this takes place, it was privatised and so the plants

8:10 were shut down in Moi and therefore employment in the town

8:14 of Moi was non existent. So a lot of people moved out.

8:17 It was so minimal people there as the employment rate dropped

8:20 massively created a lot of issues around the town.

8:25 But it meant that the demographic of the area changed

8:28 a lot in that in many ways the government had this great grand

8:31 idea as well of that it seemed like a very since that the

8:35 housing prices dropped so dramatically, it was a great

8:38 opportunity for the government to find cheap and free housing

8:41 for single mothers. So it meant that the area grew

8:45 in terms of people who were on a lot of government benefits,

8:48 those sorts of things. But not only that, the area was

8:52 due to the the plant itself that that's there and the coal mining

8:56 in the area for the electricity, There are a lot of health issues

9:01 related to that as well. So people that are living in the

9:04 era have have been affected ongoing with these that with the

9:08 with health issues due to the thermal power plants and due to

9:12 the high levels of exposure from the pollution from the open cut

9:14 mines. So another area, area needed in

9:18 in the town of Maui was also that there's been a decline in

9:24 well there's been an increase in developmental delays in

9:27 children. So children that are born in the

9:29 area where the school entry age they were in around the 90s, et

9:34 cetera. It was at about a 15% of

9:37 children starting school were starting with a developmental

9:41 delay. Now in comparison, the

9:45 Australian average is 11%. And I looked at also the, the

9:50 data from Casey Council, which would be kind of the nearest

9:55 suburban area that I could that I thought was a comparative area

9:59 of like, you know, you'd more built up area.

10:02 So not quite not as rural as Maui, but the but a similar

10:07 demographic, you know, that it just borders on sort of to where

10:09 you're heading towards Maui. Now.

10:11 The average there is 8.2% of children needs developmental

10:15 delays. So in comparing that to 15%,

10:18 it's a huge difference. So there is clearly something in

10:23 the water of Maui that's causing some health issues and also then

10:28 ongoing developmental needs with children.

10:30 So that's what sets the scene of the kinds of people who live in

10:34 Maui. Yep.

10:36 So the characters then we then we meet in this story some very

10:40 what we would call in Australia here bogans.

10:42 Totally, Yeah. I mean, I think, I think it's

10:45 just like widely accepted that Maui and the term bogan are

10:51 synonymous. Especially after this guy, it's

10:54 totally related. It became a media storm around

10:56 it. Yeah, it was became a bit of a.

10:58 Show Yeah, yeah, I I was listening to Andrew Rules

11:02 podcast in researching this and he made a really he said a

11:06 really interesting quote that I've written down and it's about

11:09 the Township. So he said it's not only the

11:12 story of a battered baby, but of where he came from, a place of

11:17 broken families and broken hearts, shattered trust and

11:21 broken dreams. So I think I mean, it really

11:24 gets you that quote, doesn't it? And he's so right.

11:27 Like it is a place of broken families.

11:29 As you were saying, this is where there's a lot of housing

11:32 Commission families living there, a lot of single mums and

11:37 their children, and that's kind of what the town has become and

11:42 still is. I read that the population was

11:44 something like 72% single mums. Yeah, Like that's, that's

11:48 incredibly. That's a lot, yeah.

11:49 A lot. Yeah, that's, I mean, yeah,

11:51 yeah, that's huge. So the characters in this case,

11:56 we've got Belinda Murphy as I mentioned before, who was

11:59 Jayden's mum, Brett Leskey, who was Jayden's dad.

12:03 And Katie kind of comes into comes into the picture really

12:06 early on because Katie was actually married to Brett Leski

12:11 first. I think most of the day like

12:15 fates for today, they I don't know that well.

12:16 They probably got divorced eventually.

12:18 But during this period of that we're focusing on here for the

12:21 Leskis. Brett and Katie were married.

12:26 And he was engaged to Belinda up until not, not while this case

12:31 was ongoing. Actually, it was they sort of

12:34 split for good about 12 months, I think before this all

12:37 happened. But they were he was actually

12:40 engaged to Belinda. So Brett and Katie were married

12:46 and then Katie suspected that he was cheating on her and found

12:51 out that he was actually cheating on her with Belinda.

12:55 She. Already she kind of knew that

12:57 already that it was. Yeah, her youngest sister, I

12:59 think there's three years or something, something between

13:01 them. Yeah.

13:03 So Brett and Belinda were together for, I think about

13:07 three years. Yeah, so 'cause Brett's shirt,

13:10 first shirt on the scene when Belinda was only 13.

13:12 Yeah, apparently even their mum sort of spied this whole that

13:16 Brett had a bit of an eye for the younger.

13:18 Sister. Yeah.

13:19 So, yeah, and then she was only 13 at the time, which, you know,

13:22 it's a bit. She's too young to be having

13:24 some guy look her up and down. Yeah.

13:27 So, and obviously, Ballin Ballin, sorry, Katie and Brett

13:32 got together when she was pregnant and Brett believed it

13:37 was with his child, but it was not, was it?

13:40 No. I don't think there's any

13:44 relationship that doesn't include infidelity in this.

13:48 My, they're all, they all overlap and they all, yeah.

13:52 So Brett and Belinda had a baby together, first of all a

13:58 daughter, and she was born about 2 1/2, two years I think before

14:04 Jayden was born. Yeah, yeah, Roughly, yeah,

14:07 because it's yeah. Or is it?

14:09 No, it's about 18 months, I think.

14:11 Yeah, they're pretty close in age.

14:14 And then Brett actually owned a business with a man named Greg.

14:21 Now. OK, just quickly on names.

14:24 There are two ways I've heard Greg's surname said, and we're

14:29 not quite sure which one's correct, so I'll say it both

14:32 ways and then from then on we will just call him Greg, so.

14:36 Lot like knocking out tongues all his twists.

14:38 Very. That's it.

14:39 So I've heard his name him be called Greg Domasevic or Greg

14:45 Domasevic. My inkling would be to say

14:48 Domasevic, but I actually don't know whether that's right or

14:52 not. Anyways, but Greg, Greg and

14:55 Brett were best friends. They owned a business together

14:58 and that is how Greg was introduced into this story and

15:04 he and Belinda were having an affair.

15:07 Well, Katie actually orchestrated that.

15:10 Yeah, because she was not real happy about her younger sister

15:13 obviously now being with Brett. With Brett.

15:15 So. She things were going better

15:17 than the relationship between Brett and Katie because they've

15:20 been together much longer. Yeah, and two kids together, two

15:23 kids together. I think even at that stage Katie

15:26 had had a third child to 1/3 bloke.

15:29 Yeah. So.

15:30 Yeah. So things were going well for

15:31 Belinda and Brett in a lot of ways.

15:33 So. Yeah, so she thought she'd and

15:35 make sure that didn't last. Yeah, orchestrate, you know.

15:39 Yeah, and I, from all accounts, from what I can gather, Greg was

15:44 aware of what Katie was doing. Like he was part of it.

15:47 He was like, yeah, sure, I'll do that.

15:48 You know, like I'll split them up with you.

15:50 No worries. It wasn't like she was just

15:52 putting them in front of each other and hoping for the best.

15:54 It was a full blown plan. Actively pursuing it.

15:57 Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's a.

16:01 That's an interesting one, yeah. When Brett found out, because I

16:06 think they were sort of seeing it, obviously seeing each other

16:08 in secret at the start, they didn't want anyone to know.

16:10 But Brett eventually found out and he left.

16:14 He picked up and left and went to Perth, couldn't have gotten

16:17 further away if he tried. And so at the time of this

16:21 incident, there is absolutely no doubt Brett wasn't involved at

16:26 all because he was living in Perth and that's all been proven

16:29 and. He left for Perth too, was due

16:31 to something the cops were looking into as well.

16:33 So oh. Go on.

16:34 Oh yeah, no, we don't hear that. Yeah, I did hear that.

16:39 And once someone podcast I was listening to that it was there

16:42 was a payment that went into Belinda's bank account, like a

16:45 child support payment of some sort, government payment that

16:49 went missing. And clearly it was taken by

16:51 someone who had her bank. And so when Belinda raised that

16:56 with him that the cops were looking into this because she

16:58 had reported it, he he split. OK, I didn't realize that I

17:02 knew. I knew he looked quite abruptly,

17:03 but I actually didn't realize that was why.

17:05 Yeah, Yep. So we'll get into exactly what

17:11 happened with Jade, and I think now it kind of leads in into

17:14 that. So Jayden was 18 months old when

17:17 this happened. No, 14 months old.

17:19 Yeah, 14 months old at the time of at the time.

17:22 I said I remember, I mean, I remember this case in 1997.

17:26 I was, gosh, I must have been 16.

17:28 So you know, it was a Philly old enough to remember all this like

17:32 happening in real time. And but when I heard how old he

17:36 was in my first documentary, I looked at it was like, God, was

17:40 he really that young? Like to me, I had this two to

17:42 three-year old in my brain me. Too, And even when I look at

17:45 photos of him now when I was researching this, he does look

17:48 older than 14 months old. Like maybe it was the way he was

17:52 dressed, I'm not sure. But when I'm now putting it

17:54 together, I feel like it's the way he was talked about because,

17:58 well, I mean, this is, I think, very rap valid.

18:01 So Greg, who became his boyfriend, but he was also the

18:04 babysitter, you know, so he he wanted to spend time with Jayden

18:08 and was. With Jayden, yes, he.

18:10 Didn't want the girls. Rihanna, which is the oldest

18:13 sister, he didn't want to spend time with her.

18:15 He. He.

18:17 His his fascination or his his interest in Jayden was.

18:23 Creepy and it was he's kind of like he's, you know, this little

18:25 man needs male attention to be brought up like A and needs to

18:29 be wound up like a yeah, he had to be a man be around.

18:32 And so the way he he's talked about of like spending time with

18:35 Greg. Yeah.

18:36 Was around, you know, they played PlayStation together and

18:38 they worked on cars together and they went fishing together.

18:41 It's a full time mind. Yeah.

18:42 That's got to be a kid older than 14 months.

18:44 Totally. That's a baby, a 14 month old.

18:47 Whereas keep sitting on a couch somehow interacting with

18:50 Playstations or something or, you know, going fishing.

18:54 That's not that's not a whole thing wrong.

18:56 And that like, I mean, but that's I guess coming from the

18:59 perspective of a different style of parenting.

19:02 Absolutely, absolutely. This will come into play later

19:05 on, but Greg, while he was the babysitter and actively sought

19:13 to babysit Jayden on numerous occasions, this wasn't the first

19:17 time he'd babysat him. He'd done it before.

19:21 I think for Belinda, she probably almost relished in the

19:25 fact that somebody was willing to help her out.

19:27 She was a single mum at that time.

19:29 I had to do what she wanted to do, which was, you know.

19:34 Go out and get drunk. Yeah, yeah.

19:36 If she didn't go out and have a few drinks, like for her, like

19:39 it was full binge drinking when she'd go.

19:41 Like not just, I'm not saying she did that every day, but when

19:44 she did go, it was like, I'm writing myself off.

19:47 That's, you know, I'm not, I'm not mum, I'm partying and I'm

19:50 yeah, out to do that. So on the 14th of June in 1997,

19:58 they, Belinda and Katie were going to a party and.

20:03 They, the party was in Traralgon, which is about 30

20:06 kilometres east of Maui, and it was a house party, I believe.

20:12 And Katie's then boyfriend was also attending the party.

20:15 So Katie had actually organized another babysitter to come over

20:18 and look after her two children and then also look after Jayden

20:22 and Brianna. I want.

20:23 To say they're cousins, but they're also siblings.

20:26 Like half. Siblings like it's Oh my God,

20:29 yeah, because they're aunties and it's just it's all a bit

20:33 uncles and dads and it's all very into yeah.

20:37 So. So Linda is not only Jaden's

20:40 mother, but also his auntie? Yep.

20:42 Because she's Brett's sister-in-law.

20:45 She's married. He's married to his sister.

20:48 Yeah. Anyway, let's just don't go

20:50 there. Cousins.

20:52 So this babysitter was meant to be looking after the four

20:54 children. Well, the mum's and the mum's

20:59 partner went out to this party and Greg decided that he

21:06 actually wanted to have Jayden and look after him and kind of

21:09 almost begged Belinda to have him.

21:11 Like she'd already organized a babysitter.

21:13 She was like, no, it's taken care of.

21:14 But he decided he wanted to have Jayden and she sort of relented

21:19 eventually. And So what ended up happening

21:22 was they she packed a bag for Jayden with some nappies, some

21:25 clothes, some toys, a bottle to kind of get him through and said

21:30 that Greg could have Jayden for a few hours.

21:32 And then the idea was that he would drop Jayden to the

21:36 babysitter, you know, a few hours later so that she could

21:40 look after those four kids until I guess the following day or

21:44 whatever it had been arranged. You have to be said, I mean, he

21:47 he was very keen to look after Jayden, but he'd previously

21:50 babysat him and Jayden had been injured.

21:53 From reports there were physical abuse happening already to

21:57 Jayden in those babysitting days.

21:59 Yeah, so he'd been slapped across the face.

22:01 Yeah, someone who'd he'd been washing his yeah, witness

22:04 pushing him over and he's he would have barely been walking

22:07 at 14. Months that's what got me like

22:09 yeah, he he was yeah pushing him over when he's like learning to

22:11 walk and things. It was just in it's crazy

22:13 horrible. He also it was only a few days

22:17 prior to this occurring he had actually shaved Jayden's head

22:21 into it's disgusting. So he had Greg had a particular

22:26 hairstyle and of the 90s at the time mullets were in and he had

22:31 shaved his head so that the front of it was a receding

22:33 hairline similar to his own. Penny a beautiful picture of

22:37 this man already and then he had cut the back of it and into a

22:42 like some shapes and things. Yeah, people put triangles and

22:44 squares into the like, shaved it into the.

22:46 Backwards and back. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

22:48 Which becomes a little bit relevant later on too.

22:51 Yeah, it does. Yeah.

22:51 But he so he wasn't. He didn't treat him like a baby,

22:55 that is for sure. Not at all.

22:58 Question was really angry at him for doing that too.

23:01 And that I, you know, I'm not blaming her at all, but it's

23:05 interesting that she's then allowed him because I think that

23:09 the incident with a haircut had had only happened a few days

23:12 before, hadn't. It Yeah, I'm sorry, but who is

23:15 letting their baby let me left with a man who's just done that

23:19 to their kid? And a 20 like he's a 29 year old

23:21 man with no children of his own like it.

23:23 I don't know. It's.

23:25 I'm sure she lives with the guilt of that every single day

23:28 of her life. She would, of course, she would

23:30 blame herself and wish she'd done things differently.

23:34 But that's not the way it all panned out.

23:36 Yeah. Yeah.

23:39 So Belinda and Katie and her boyfriend left their home at

23:46 about 8:00 PM to head for this party.

23:49 And I think so. I think at that stage Belinda

23:55 had assumed Jayden would have been dropped off to the

23:58 babysitter and she'd tried to call Greg and not being able to

24:01 get through to him, but they decided to go on and go to the

24:04 party anyway. But as soon as they got to

24:05 Traralgon, to the house, she tried calling Greg again.

24:08 And I think she said she tried calling him between 15 and 20

24:12 times between getting there and when she was actually able to

24:16 get onto him, which I think was at about 10:00 PM.

24:18 Is that right? Yeah, well, I think even she

24:20 doesn't actually recall those phone calls, Yeah, with how much

24:23 alcohol she'd consumed over the night, but the phone records

24:27 show that. So she actually got through to

24:30 him at 11:00 PM? Yeah, that night when she gets

24:36 through to him at 11:00 PM, he says to her, shit's happened.

24:42 And he and that Jayden had burned his bottom on a heater

24:49 and that he'd had to take him to a hospital.

24:52 And they apparently he took him to one hospital and they applied

24:56 a cream, but he wasn't happy with that.

24:58 So he decided to take him to another hospital for a second

25:01 opinion and Belinda was a bit beside herself and was panicked

25:07 and said to her sister, I need to get home, I need to go and

25:10 see what's going on and sort out what's happening with Jayden.

25:12 And her sister said Oh no, no, no, Greg's a jokester, let's

25:15 ring him back and see what's going on.

25:17 Which? Was like, he's well known for

25:20 pranks and ridiculous pranks at the heart.

25:22 Yeah. Yeah.

25:23 So I mean, that I think could be believed by her at that moment.

25:26 Like he's known for having a bucket of fish guts.

25:29 Yeah, put. Full pranks where he would get a

25:32 syringe and draw up the fish guts and then and put it in his

25:35 enemies air vents so that the whole house would then stink of

25:39 fish. Scouts.

25:40 You know, like, like he was known for that stuff.

25:44 To make a joke about a child is so off it's not even funny.

25:50 But it sort of speaks to the type of manuals that people

25:53 believed that that might have been the case.

25:56 So Katie rings Greg back, and he's like, yeah, yeah, no, it

26:01 was just a joke. Now it's cool.

26:02 It's cool. Don't don't come back, Don't

26:04 come back. And so I think they were sort of

26:07 appeased by that. And they were like, OK, well,

26:10 yeah, he's being Greg's being Greg.

26:12 And they kept on partying. Oh yeah, kept on being and

26:16 partying and partying and drinking.

26:18 Yeah, yeah. So between midnight and 1:00 AM,

26:23 So the neighbor, the next door neighbor of Greg's, she rang

26:32 Greg earlier in the night to talk to him because she lent one

26:36 of his friends money or something and Greg was going to

26:39 pay her back something really weird, something like that.

26:42 And she eventually got onto him. They had a chat.

26:46 And you know, that kind of was the end of that.

26:50 Between midnight and 1:00 AM, that neighbor heard Greg's car

26:54 start and she is 100. She is adamant to this day that

26:59 it was between midnight and 1:00 AM and that's really important

27:02 for the timeline of this story. It wasn't at 3:00 AM or two

27:06 between 2:00 and 3:00 AM when he went to pick Belinda up from the

27:09 party. It was definitely between

27:12 midnight and 1:00 AM. Yeah, which the phone calls also

27:16 align I think with that where there was more phone calls being

27:19 called and no one answering. Yeah.

27:21 So I mean yes someone can be home and ignoring your phone

27:23 call, but it it lines up that he wasn't answering phone calls at

27:27 that. Time either Yeah, that's it.

27:31 So at this stage, nobody knows what's happened between 1:00 AM

27:37 and 2:00 or 3:00 in the morning when Belinda rings Greg to pick

27:41 her up from Traralgon, and he leaves.

27:45 And his version of events is that he leaves Jayden on the

27:50 couch in front of the heater, sleeping, and he leaves to pick

27:57 Belinda up from Ryan's Bar, which is where they ended up

28:00 after the house party in Traralgon.

28:03 And he tells her at that point, he tells Belinda at that point

28:07 that Jayden is at Maryvale Hospital.

28:11 That one that was still being built, Yep.

28:13 Did exist here? Yep.

28:14 Wasn't fully functional as a hospital, certainly I don't

28:18 think at the time had an emergency department.

28:20 So it's not something, you know, you couldn't just rock up there

28:23 and be treated at whatever time of night.

28:27 The other interesting thing, which I find this just to me

28:33 screams of the fact that he's guilty is that he actually took

28:37 Belinda's favorite drink, which is Jack Daniels with him in the

28:40 car and actively encouraged her to keep drinking when they get

28:46 home. Oh, sorry.

28:48 On the way home, Belinda thinking that Jayden's in

28:51 hospital, she says to Greg, you've got to take me to the

28:55 hospital. Let's not go home.

28:56 I need to go to the hospital. And he convinced her that she

28:59 shouldn't go to the hospital because she was so inebriated.

29:02 It wouldn't look good. Yeah, he really manipulated her

29:05 in that sense of like, you know, that this, this would look good

29:07 on you as a mother, like not on him for having letting the child

29:10 get injured on the on the heater, etcetera.

29:13 Like, but this would look, look bad on you because you left the

29:16 baby with me and you're drunk and yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

29:21 Yeah, that's that's exactly right.

29:24 Like he's he's already starting to shift the blame, so he

29:27 eventually convinces her to go home to his house with him.

29:32 And they get there and what has happened?

29:34 Meg the pig's head. This is this is where the story

29:37 just goes bananas. Yeah, which is, which is, you

29:42 know, this is where I think Maui really just comes to its

29:44 forefront that this isn't, this is one thing's happening which

29:49 is bad, which then is thrown entirely over another bit of

29:54 stupidity, really at the end of the day.

29:57 So there is a another lot of people we need to introduce at

30:00 this point. Yeah.

30:02 So Greg was seeing a girl be prior to Belinda of the name of

30:08 Yvonne Penfold. And then he was pretty obsessed

30:12 with Yvonne. He was, he wanted to maintain

30:14 that relationship, but. And she'd maintain it.

30:17 They were having an affair. Yeah, yeah.

30:19 But she was pretty done. And but more so than her being

30:22 done, her brother was done with this relationship.

30:24 Kenny Penfold. So Kenny had decided that that's

30:29 it, you're not no more of this Greg business.

30:32 He was, because he wasn't only just a bit of a weirdo, he was

30:35 abusive towards Yvonne as well. Yeah, I think.

30:38 Forensically, when they did a forensic sweep of Greg's house

30:41 after Jayden's disappearance, they actually found Yvonne's

30:45 blood in his bathroom. Yeah.

30:48 Which was, you know, just goes to show that he'd obviously been

30:51 physically abusive and had caused substantial injury to her

30:55 in his house previously. Yeah.

30:58 So Kenny had decided he wanted some revenge on Greg and to

31:01 ensure that this relationship was done with his sister.

31:04 So he got together a couple of them and they went to stake out

31:08 direct Greg's house and they took with them some things to

31:13 throw at the house, which we'll bring up later.

31:17 But so they sat on the the railway line opposite Greg's

31:21 house to stake out make sure was there anyone home before they

31:25 could head over the road and implement their plan.

31:29 So whilst they sat on the side of the railway line waiting for

31:33 Greg to leave the house. This is gold.

31:39 So because this became quite an issue of like who who did this?

31:44 The cops were looking at why this occurred.

31:47 Oh, where do I even start? I know, let's let's move

31:50 forward. So they see on the railway line

31:52 waiting for to leave. They see him leave and they go

31:55 for it. They go across the road and they

31:57 throw at his house a pigs head so this smashes a window.

32:04 Or the pigs? No, they tried.

32:06 They tried to use the pig's head to smash a window.

32:08 Turns out you can't use a pig's head to smash a window.

32:10 I did not know. Yes, apparently it ricocheted.

32:13 My back pocket remind me of why. Steph, why?

32:15 If you want to smash a window, don't use a pig's head.

32:18 They tried twice and it didn't break the window, so they picked

32:21 up rocks and threw rocks to break the window and the pig's

32:23 head was actually found in the front yard.

32:25 The front. Yard, you know, hadn't quite,

32:28 you know, gone through the window.

32:29 Sorry. Keep going.

32:30 The pig's head is relevant in that apparently Greg had him and

32:33 Yvonne had actually got a pig to fatten it up and you know, to

32:36 have so they had it like as a pet to then fatten up and kill

32:40 and have for later. So they that's why they decided

32:43 to use a pig's head. I think they'd gone and done

32:46 this to the pig and obviously they had it hanging in their

32:48 bathroom to then do what they need to do to to slaughter a

32:51 pig, but took the head and decided to throw that at his

32:54 house. So in the cops need to rule out

32:58 then what what their part in this was or like, did they then

33:01 smash that front window and then abduct Jayden?

33:06 When the cops spoke to them, Kenny very politely let them

33:10 know that there's evidence to suggest to show that where he

33:12 was and what he was doing that evening.

33:14 And so he took the police over to the railway line to show

33:17 them, as one journalist put it, the solid evidence of being on

33:25 the Royal Railway line. So this solid evidence I have

33:30 just, I love Australia and This is why, because every podcast

33:34 I've listened to have described this in a different way.

33:37 And the wording is just. God, I love go.

33:40 So, as I said, his solid evidence that was over on the

33:43 railway line was also described as a petrified pile of feces.

33:49 OK. Said Turd.

33:54 I was hoping Turd had been there.

33:56 What? Kenny had done is a shit as he

34:01 was waiting out to throw this pig's head and then.

34:05 When you gotta go, you gotta go you.

34:07 Gotta go when you gotta go when you gotta go when you don't even

34:09 have toilet paper. So instead of using toilet

34:12 paper, obviously, he ripped off the pocket of his shirt and

34:16 wiped his ass with that. I mean, surely that it wouldn't

34:20 have been clean. It wouldn't have been great.

34:24 Sorry what probably lucky for him who did that because it it

34:29 showed timeline. It showed that the way that they

34:32 were actually where they said they were when they said they

34:35 were there, they. Were lying.

34:36 They were fessing up for this crime entirely.

34:39 Yeah, yeah, yeah. And they just chose the wrong

34:43 night to do what they did. I think ultimately, yes, that's

34:47 what I mean. Obviously, you know in the trial

34:50 it was trying to be put forward that these two things were

34:52 related when unfortunately. It was in you think how could it

34:56 not be related but? Yeah, I believe it's hidden in

35:00 in a garden bed and a kid missing you've, I mean many

35:04 people. In the same house, yeah.

35:05 Those things together, whereas these things were unfortunately

35:10 to me seemed to be completely unrelated.

35:12 Fully agree. It was just bad timing for you

35:15 to decide tonight's the night we're going to get Greg.

35:18 Yeah, Yeah. So that's the side note of that

35:21 occurs just. I'll have a good turd.

35:25 Side note. Too many cases we get a, we get

35:29 a turd. Side note, but let's take it

35:30 when we get it. So after coming home to the

35:35 shattered window and pig's head in the front yard, Greg

35:40 convinces Belinda to be taken home.

35:43 Like he he insists on taking her back to her place.

35:47 And he does so. And that happened at about 3:35

35:50 AM. And as he was driving home from

35:52 dropping Belinda home now just very quickly as well, she was so

35:57 intoxicated at this time, apparently she just went home

36:00 and went straight to sleep. She completely passed out.

36:04 So she was probably not even with it enough to to have the

36:09 thought to figure out where Jayden was.

36:12 And Greg had pretty much said that he was still in hospital

36:15 and being cared for by the doctors and nurses, so she

36:18 probably felt like he was in the best place for him at the time.

36:22 Whether or not she even had the forethought to think that

36:24 through, I don't know. Anymore that she could have.

36:26 I don't think she was capable of that other point too, and she

36:28 needed to. Sleep it off.

36:29 Sleep it off. Yeah.

36:30 So that's exactly what she did. Went to sleep on her couch on

36:34 the way home from dropping Belinda, and he was headed back

36:38 to his place. Greg was pulled over by the

36:44 cops. Now let's just put into context

36:47 where he's at. By his account at this time,

36:51 he's had a pig's head thrown at his house and windows smashed.

36:56 He's been looking after a child who is now in hospital with an

37:01 injury. He gets pulled over by this cop

37:04 because he was speeding, he was breathalysed and he wasn't over.

37:07 He was. He hadn't been drinking.

37:09 They're doing kind. Yeah, but at that stage, drug

37:12 testing wasn't available, so it was a breath O or nothing.

37:16 And he didn't mention any of that to the cop who pulled him

37:21 over. Curious, isn't it?

37:23 Yeah, so. He was already convinced.

37:29 Well, he's already told Belinda that he knew who had thrown the

37:32 pig's head. Yep.

37:35 And he had when that when he saw that he did rummage through the

37:37 house and look through cupboards and things like that.

37:40 And he states to this day that he was doing that because he

37:43 thought that maybe Jayden had gone and hidden somewhere, you

37:46 know, being scared by these people who had thrown the pig's

37:49 head. And so I think.

37:51 I guess. Yeah.

37:52 Yeah. I mean, his account of what

37:54 actually happened once they figured out that Jayden hadn't

37:56 been taken to a hospital, Yeah. Was that he'd just left Jayden

38:00 asleep on the couch when he went to pick Belinda up.

38:02 Yeah. So as he's concocting this ball

38:07 story as time goes on, I mean, I think for him, when he came home

38:11 to see the pigs head, he was like, oh, you beauty.

38:12 This gives me an excuse. And he's overtime tried.

38:16 I mean, I don't think he's the smartest tool in the shed.

38:18 So that's taken him a while and he's come up with several

38:22 iterations of this story. But he's used that to his

38:25 advantage. Yeah.

38:26 And at 5:00 in the morning, he goes over to Belinda's house,

38:30 wakes her up and says, oh, my God, I I have to tell you,

38:33 Jayden's been kidnapped and he's not in hospital.

38:36 I didn't wanna worry you. I thought I'd find him.

38:39 So they go straight to the police station and report.

38:42 Yeah. To which Belinda even says to

38:44 the police at that .0 This is just, you know, great making up

38:49 stories again and you know, and playing pranks and stuff.

38:52 He's fine. He's at the hospital.

38:53 Like who? Because I mean, at this point

38:55 she would have still been drunk. I mean like for.

38:57 Sure. This was an hour and a half

38:58 after it. She's passed out on the couch,

39:00 you know? You know.

39:01 Yeah, she's had 100 per evidence that it's, you know, she's out

39:03 of there. She's not with it enough.

39:05 And even her own words are that she did.

39:07 It didn't really sink in for her until later in that day when it

39:11 was a news story where she heard, you know, that this

39:14 baby's gone missing in Maui, that she, it registered for her

39:17 of like, Oh my God, he's been abducted.

39:20 He's not at hospital. Because like her story to the

39:23 cops the whole time, she's so bamboozled and confused of like,

39:25 you know, no, no, he's in hospital.

39:27 You need to go and get him from the hospital.

39:28 I don't know why I'm here telling you that he's been

39:30 abducted. That's that's Greg's stupid

39:32 story he's telling, but he's at the hospital.

39:35 Because that's what you'd wanna believe.

39:37 You, you. You couldn't.

39:38 You couldn't probably fathom the thought that the person that you

39:41 trusted to look after your child had.

39:43 You wouldn't down to believe that, would you?

39:45 Like, you know, that makes it somehow your fault.

39:47 Yeah, sure. Yeah, yeah, for sure.

39:49 Yeah, I mean, it's so incredibly tragic, but it was interesting

39:54 when he was pulled over by the cops, they noticed he was a bit

40:00 damp. Yeah, which, yeah, at that point

40:03 they didn't realize. Why or why?

40:06 But having said that, that it doesn't, it still doesn't marry

40:09 up with the timeline because when did he get out?

40:14 When did he get wet? Like it doesn't because they

40:16 what they the cop story now or after the fact is that they

40:19 think that when he got pulled over, Jaden was probably in the

40:22 boot. Yeah.

40:24 Yeah, yeah. And and that, Can you imagine

40:30 being the cop that had pulled him over knowing that that's

40:32 what the theory was? I mean, he was, he wouldn't.

40:35 I mean, you wouldn't need to go, oh, let's me check your boot,

40:37 'cause you might have a toddler in there.

40:39 Yeah. Because, yeah, it wasn't for

40:42 thought. I mean, they, they, he was known

40:44 to the cops, but it wouldn't have been known to the cops that

40:46 he would potentially have jaded him with him at that stage.

40:48 To the cops, but not for murder of a young child.

40:51 You know more for stupid. Pranks, yeah.

40:54 Yeah, that's it. Yeah, yeah.

40:56 Messing around and generally being unemployed and a nuisance

41:00 to the community. So I guess what then came to

41:08 pass was that, you know, Belinda's obviously realized

41:14 that, oh, my God, he is actually missing and he's not in the

41:16 hospital. And it all sort of came as a as

41:19 a bit of a sudden shock. Yeah.

41:21 And it was a very, very, very long time between that date and

41:27 the date that Jayden's body was found.

41:29 Greg was absolutely boosted immediately.

41:32 In March, I think it was like nearly it was July, Yeah.

41:35 It was charged on the 16th of July 1997.

41:38 So he went missing on the 15th of June.

41:40 So one month later they did charge him with the murder.

41:44 They felt they had enough evidence based on the small

41:48 things they had already found, which included some blood soaked

41:51 tissues which were rolled up as if shoved up a nose or in an ear

41:55 or something. But and they contain Jayden

41:57 blood and they were found in the rubbish bin out the front of his

42:00 house. Yeah, the fact that he was the

42:04 person in sole charge of Jaden was the last.

42:06 Person to see Jaden alive, Yeah. All those sorts of, they felt

42:09 that that was enough at that point to arrest him.

42:11 And so he was, yeah, charged on the 16th of July.

42:15 It's worth noting that it's not. A body yet?

42:17 No. It was worth noting as well that

42:19 they it was all circumstantial evidence.

42:21 They didn't have any hard evidence at this point.

42:24 No. And I mean, they had to act, I

42:29 suppose this this case got so much media coverage.

42:32 There was a lot of pressure from the community to for this case

42:36 to be solved. So Greg was actually charged in

42:39 the July and it wasn't until the 1st of January of the following

42:44 year of 1998 that his body, that Jayden's body was found.

42:49 And I believe that the circumstances around that would

42:51 just, it was so incredibly lucky.

42:55 There would have been a less than.

42:56 So he was his body was found in Blue Rock Dam and which is I

43:03 think about 18 kilometers outside of Maui.

43:06 And a family was picnicking by the lake and or by the dam.

43:13 And it was just one of those instances in time.

43:17 I think it was a fairly remote area.

43:19 Not many people frequented that spot.

43:22 And there was a less than 24 hour period where the coroner

43:26 has said that the body would have floated to the top before

43:29 then sinking again just due to temperatures.

43:31 Just due to temperatures, yes. And that that and had been

43:34 particularly cool. That stage, it was only just

43:37 warming up. So it just, it was just

43:39 literally everything aligned, Yeah.

43:41 To ensure there was someone there to see it in that short

43:43 period of time. The temperature was just right.

43:46 Yeah, it was, yeah. They said the coroner said that

43:49 due to the the really cold winter and the fact that it it

43:53 hadn't yet warmed up into summer temperatures, Jayden's body was

43:57 quite well preserved. Another thing that sort of

44:00 allowed the body to float up was the fact that his body had been

44:04 wrapped in a sleeping bag and weighed down with a crowbar.

44:07 And it looks as though from from the evidence of the sleeping

44:11 bags, once it was looked into, that the fish had actually eaten

44:14 a lot of the stitching away. And so that sort of released the

44:17 body from the bag and was able to, he was able to float to the

44:21 surface. So his body was obviously, I

44:25 mean the family raised the alarm, his body was identified

44:30 and apparently he was quite easily visually identified.

44:33 So that goes to show just how well after 6 odd months in the

44:37 water, how well his body was preserved.

44:40 Well, there was a question mark at one stage over that of like

44:42 whether or not he had been alive for a period of time before

44:46 being thrown in the dam. And one of the things they did

44:48 look at was the length of his hair.

44:50 Yeah. And it was thought that his hair

44:52 was longer than when it was be prior to pulling to leaving him

44:55 because as we said, he had had the haircut from Greg and she

45:01 thought his hair looked longer and so did that it was just

45:04 because it was wet. Yeah, so, so it did look longer.

45:06 And they also said that the skin kind of recedes a little bit and

45:10 and because there's no blood, you know, necessarily left in

45:13 the body, it can make features look more pronounced or hair

45:16 look longer. Yeah.

45:18 So I think that was found to be a moot point.

45:20 But I know the defense definitely used that as as one

45:23 of the things that sort of dispelled or that I guess

45:27 supported their case. Time for the doubt in the the

45:30 jury's mind. Absolutely.

45:32 Yeah. Yeah.

45:34 So they with the body in the lake, they sent police divers in

45:41 to see what else they could retrieve and they found.

45:47 So along with Jaden's body, they found the sleeping bag that I

45:52 was just talking about that he'd been wrapped in the crowbar,

45:55 which was proven to be Greg's eventually that had come from

45:59 his house. They found baby boots, a bottle,

46:04 a bib. There was some evidence to show

46:08 that the so they they tried to forensically test and look for

46:13 DNA on especially on the bib and the bottle.

46:18 Unfortunately the DNA evidence wasn't conclusive.

46:22 There was also found some, there was blood found on the bib that

46:25 was shown at the time to be from an unknown female donor.

46:32 So again the defence used that in their case.

46:35 But it was later proven that there was actually just cross

46:38 contamination from an error in the laboratory processes.

46:41 So that was actually dispelled and the DNA evidence just

46:46 couldn't be used. But unfortunately that was found

46:49 out after the trial. It was found out during the

46:51 inquest and due to double jeopardy laws in Victoria, once

46:59 Greg had been found not guilty of this crime, which is what

47:05 eventuated, he couldn't be tried for it again.

47:09 So, well, things have changed now.

47:12 Yeah, yeah. If there's new, fresh and

47:15 compelling evidence that that definitely can come into play.

47:19 But I think that's not going to happen necessarily in this case

47:24 with those particular pieces of evidence.

47:26 Not that that wouldn't bring anything more forward.

47:28 I mean, the other thing was with the bib, Belinda said that was

47:33 not an item that she gave to Greg that morning.

47:37 So that threw a little bit as well of like that.

47:39 There were items in that we've found with Jayden, they were not

47:44 at Greg's house. They had to have been things.

47:46 He potentially bought the sleeping bag as well and the

47:48 bib. I believe they think that he has

47:51 gone back to Belinda's house and quite possibly when he took her

47:53 home or whatever, grabbed a couple of extra things to be

47:56 able to put it all together and put the body in the dam.

48:02 So there's more evidence that it wasn't someone else because it

48:05 was someone who could have, who had access to.

48:07 Belinda's house. In that time period, yeah, to

48:11 gather those things as well and. That also then supports the

48:16 theory that he disposed of Jaden's body after dropping

48:20 Belinda and before going back to her at 5:00 AM.

48:24 So at some point between 3:00, 30 and 5:15, when he got back to

48:30 Belinda's house, yeah, yeah, he's disposed of Jayden's body.

48:34 And I mean the. Cops sort of said that it's a

48:36 tight timeline and it's part of like what the defence used, yes,

48:40 against them as well because it is a very tight timeline.

48:43 That if you put it together from the 335 being pulled over by the

48:46 police after just dropping Belinda, he then has to have

48:50 gone back to his house, gathered things, driven from there, which

48:55 is in a 15 roughly 15 minute drive out to Blue Rock Dam.

48:59 Yep. Wade it out into the water.

49:00 And to be able to put Jayden where he was in the water, he

49:04 would have to wade it out waist deep into the water to put the

49:08 body there back in again, got in the car another 15 minute drive

49:12 back to his house, got rid of those wet clothes, taking them

49:15 off, which there was wet clothing found in the washing

49:17 basket, which unfortunately we're not tested at all.

49:21 But it was cited that there was wet clothing.

49:23 So could that have just been from who knows what, But there

49:28 was wet clothing there. So take removed all of that, got

49:32 dressed again, all those things, got back in his car and then

49:35 driven back to Belinda's by 5 sort of 4:45-ish to tell her

49:40 actually we need to go to the cops because Jaden's missing.

49:43 He's not at the hospital to then be at the police station by 5:00

49:46 AM. Yeah, but it's a tight, tight

49:48 timeline. But it's.

49:50 Doable. Doable.

49:52 Yeah, yeah, yeah. The other thing worth noting is

49:55 that the cops also found $600.00 worth of wet notes, banknotes

50:02 under his mattress drying out. Yeah.

50:04 Now a couple of things that that makes, I mean.

50:07 We know questions. I know I've.

50:08 Got so many questions. If you know you've waited

50:10 getting out into weight or into water to dispose of a body, why

50:13 would you keep a wallet with that much money in it in your

50:16 pocket? But then he was he was probably.

50:21 Questions. Never end.

50:24 What was he? Yeah, yeah, He'd actually given

50:26 Belinda like $70.00 that night apparently, too, and said to her

50:30 go out and have a great time. So yeah, God only knows where he

50:32 got this money from. He wasn't working at the time

50:35 he. Wasn't.

50:36 A job. Yeah.

50:38 The. I think it's interesting the

50:39 prosecution's case was that. Oh, and I'm sorry.

50:42 So when, while he was in prison awaiting the trial, he

50:47 supposedly confessed to several inmates about the crime and

50:51 about what he'd done, and one of the inmates who had nothing to

50:55 gain from telling this story because he was due to be

50:59 released anyway, there was no benefit to him to.

51:02 Actually approached him, not the other way around.

51:04 Whereas I think there were three that came forward.

51:06 Yes, two of them questionable. Yeah, the third one.

51:10 Is credible. Yeah.

51:11 Because he had nothing to gain from telling it.

51:13 And as you said, the cops went to him, not the other way

51:15 around. Yeah.

51:16 And he said that Greg had said to him that the car that he was

51:20 working on his car in the backyard and the car was up on

51:23 blocks and on Jack's. Was it OK?

51:27 Yeah. Well, was it?

51:29 Yeah. And that the car's fallen and.

51:32 And hit Jayden somehow and, like, fallen onto Jayden.

51:36 Now I've seen an interview with Greg and this was a fairly

51:40 recent ish interview of course on where he goes.

51:42 Well it couldn't have been that the car was on blocks because I

51:44 had it on a ramp. I'm like, Oh my.

51:47 God. So I immediately went to go and

51:48 find the crime scene photos. Yep after hearing that exact

51:51 interview Yep of him saying that it wasn't even on Jack.

51:53 Yep it was on ramps. So the crime scene photo from

51:56 that day, like follow that exact on the 15th of June when they

52:01 took photos off his garage. I cannot cannot see any evidence

52:04 of any ramps. So the car is sitting there on

52:07 the ground, yes. So Jax is the only option here

52:13 because. There's no ramp, right?

52:15 I'm assuming like a ramp for a car would be made out of metal.

52:18 Metal of some sort, or even to move.

52:20 Around. Like it would be, it would be a

52:23 construction of some sort sitting there.

52:25 You've got to see in those photos, this car is on that

52:28 ground. There is no nothing.

52:30 Even in the garage, you can see that he's got some ramps that

52:32 he's moved them to the side or anywhere else.

52:35 It's a very clear photo of the car.

52:39 So I, I know I sort of looked at that and went, I mean, this guy

52:42 does not tell the truth at any point.

52:43 His story changed a million times over.

52:47 But at that point in that interview, I was like, if he's

52:49 lying about that to this point where all these years, and I

52:53 remember hearing that back in 1997 that the car had fallen off

52:57 the jacks and, and apparently that had done that to him at one

53:00 stage and he had injured himself.

53:03 But that makes a lot of sense to the injuries on Jayden.

53:05 He had a very severely broken arm in the in the autopsy.

53:10 And a skull. Fracture too, which is what

53:12 actually killed him. But there was talk of that, you

53:14 know, at the time was the theory was that he had that Jacks had

53:17 fallen and and crushed his arm to which he then couldn't get

53:22 the baby to stop crying and all these sorts of things.

53:24 And that's when he's maybe hit him with the crowbar to stop him

53:27 crying and. That's actually, I think the

53:30 other thing worth noting is on autopsy, they also found that

53:33 there was a drug in Jayden's system that was used to treat

53:37 Parkinson's disease. Yeah, the like a query where

53:42 that would have come from for would he've had I?

53:45 Think it's still not? It's still not known to this day

53:47 how he had it. Yeah, but it marries up with the

53:50 whole theory of there being an injury that's so severe that

53:54 he's like, I'll drug this kid up to chop to, you know, so that

53:57 then maybe Berlin defines him tomorrow morning kind of going,

53:59 oh, he's got a broken arm. How do you do that?

54:01 Maybe it was my fault. Yeah.

54:02 But obviously that wouldn't have worked with this, with the

54:04 severe break that it was. The baby would have still been

54:06 crying or whatever upset and it's then escalated that he's

54:10 done done more to the baby. Yeah, and drugged him.

54:14 So apparently the drug can cause hallucinations and like out of

54:20 body experiences, especially in the doses that was given to him.

54:23 The other thing I found really interesting about the autopsy

54:27 report is the contents of Jaden's stomach.

54:30 So this is a 14 month old child. At 14 months old, I would say a

54:37 lot of kids are probably still eating, you know, family type

54:41 foods. They're eating.

54:43 They might be starting on a, on a little sandwich or they're

54:46 eating little rice crackers. They're eating fruit.

54:49 The only things that were found in Jayden's stomach were hot

54:53 chips and Coca-Cola. The Coca Cola's even found in a

54:57 bottle like at the house I think.

55:00 So for somebody who was so keen to look after a child, he

55:04 certainly didn't have the skill set or the knowledge behind the

55:07 needs of a 14 month old to be able to take that on.

55:11 Anyway, I just thought that was interesting.

55:14 Interesting to note. So the injury is sustained to

55:20 Jaden. I mean, as you just said, before

55:22 the injury to his head, the skull fracture was his ultimate

55:28 cause of death. The arm fracture had been

55:32 attempted to be sort of bandaged up.

55:34 As like a wood. Splint.

55:36 Yeah, and a bad, I believe it like a well, a loose fitting

55:40 bandage by the time they found him.

55:41 But that's where I sort of I, I feel like there is weight to

55:45 that whole theory of one injury occurring him sort of going, I

55:49 can fix that, Yeah. And it not going to plan and

55:52 then going what else do I do here?

55:54 Yeah, instead of taking him to get the medical attention needed

55:57 at the time. I mean, I just think it was an

56:01 accident, possibly the first incident, like if it was a

56:05 broken arm. I mean, as horrible as these as

56:08 it sounds, these things do happen.

56:10 And it's not, you know, necessarily an intentional

56:13 cause. But then Greg's actions were

56:16 certainly with the intent to cover it up.

56:20 It's not like he had Jayden's best interests at heart and

56:25 Jayden's needs at heart. He's cared more about protecting

56:28 himself and then, you know, seeking help.

56:31 And had he just taken Jayden to hospital with a broken arm, I'm

56:34 sure questions would have been asked.

56:35 I'm sure, you know, it's possible.

56:37 Blinda never would have wanted to have anything else to do with

56:40 him. But Jayden would still be alive

56:45 today if he'd done that. Yep.

56:48 In my opinion, yeah. I agree.

56:50 And because the other bit of evidence that was found too,

56:52 which marries up with his story, which is where where we get, I

56:55 think there's elements of truth to what he said and all these in

56:58 that bit. There was also a bit of skin

57:00 found on the heater. Yeah.

57:02 So it did definitely indicate that there was maybe a burn that

57:07 occurred as well in the day. So these kids had a pretty

57:09 rough. Day He had a horrible day.

57:11 Oh, God, yeah. So I mean, yeah, Not pleasant.

57:16 Not at all. Not at all.

57:18 Oh, little boy. Oh God, yeah.

57:20 So we get to then obviously the trial, which I think it goes a

57:27 little bit with what we spoke about last week and the week

57:29 before with OJ with that. There's this so many misleading

57:33 bits of information that have been incorporated in this trial

57:35 that the defense did an incredibly good job at

57:38 presenting doubt. So I think there was plenty of

57:42 evidence to, you know, suggest that.

57:44 Who else could it be other than Greg?

57:48 Well, yeah, they could have been the the Pig Gang.

57:51 So they were known. They.

57:52 Were. Known.

57:52 They were known. So, yeah, I mean, unfortunately,

57:56 yeah, the defense used all of that to their advantage.

57:59 And where they put the well, the prosecution put all of them on

58:04 the stand one after the other, thinking that that would

58:06 eliminate the doubt and say, put these people on the stand who

58:10 are going to speak their truth of like, no, we were there 100%.

58:13 This is what we did. We're we're up for admitting

58:16 that. But that's all the part we

58:17 played, even to the point where Kenny, Kenny Penfold actually

58:23 admitted that the hole in the window, he, I mean, the cops

58:28 looked at that and said there's no way someone could have

58:30 climbed through that window and gotten in and taken Jayden

58:33 because of the jagged glass. That things would have been more

58:37 if you, if they'd gone in through that way, the glass

58:39 would have been split in it. They would have cut themselves

58:43 potentially and there was things.

58:45 Where other forced entry or anything?

58:47 In persons would have been moved and therefore things were

58:49 knocked over and things weren't. However, they didn't they didn't

58:52 fingerprint, which could have eliminated that again that they

58:56 they weren't fingerprints of theirs in the house.

58:58 So that's disappointing by on on the behalf of the cops, I think

59:02 however they put them on the stand and yet they told the

59:04 truth, all these things. And he even said so as well as I

59:07 was going with that, Kenny Penfold admitted that.

59:09 And he's a pretty well well well versed criminal.

59:13 He was like, I could have got through that window.

59:15 Yeah, totally. I didn't, but yeah, I could have

59:18 got through that window for sure.

59:19 So I mean, he was certainly not up there to lie.

59:22 He was there to tell truth and not hide anything.

59:26 But the defense, what he did was he used this boganism to his

59:31 advantage, I guess, and he riled them up on the stand and to the

59:35 point where apparently they were banging on table tops, you know,

59:39 and yelling. And I mean, they were fairly

59:41 easily set off these people. They weren't.

59:44 There were sort of people who you could very easily, you know,

59:48 fire them, fire them up to the the point of aggression to then

59:51 put into the jury's mind, well, these are aggressive people,

59:55 fairly easily aggressive people. Why?

59:57 Why couldn't we then jump to they could take a baby and do

1:00:00 some pretty awful things to him? So yeah, the jury, I think

1:00:06 unfortunately went the way they could only go because there was

1:00:09 doubt. That's right.

1:00:10 And I, I think the, the bar's very, very high in a criminal

1:00:14 case that, you know, the bar to reach to, to convict somebody of

1:00:21 a crime, especially a crime as serious as this is really high.

1:00:25 And it's high for a reason. It's, it's there so that I think

1:00:29 there's a sort of a bit of a saying in the legal, in the

1:00:31 legal arena that it's better to have 10 criminals go free than

1:00:36 convict one innocent person. And so that's why the bar is set

1:00:40 so high, so that there aren't innocent people in jail.

1:00:44 As a community member, I find that really uncomfortable.

1:00:49 But then if you're that one innocent person sitting in jail,

1:00:51 then you'd want that burden of proof to be so high that you're

1:00:56 not going to end up there. So look, our legal system is far

1:01:00 from perfect. And obviously, because, you

1:01:03 know, there's criminals walking around here, there and

1:01:06 everywhere. And, and I mean, there's,

1:01:09 there's so many people getting. Into parole, etcetera, doing

1:01:13 heinous things, absolutely, but. It is what it is in this case

1:01:18 and. I think he, I think great

1:01:21 lawyer, kind of summed it up at the end of the trial, though, as

1:01:23 he was exiting the court, so the journalist asked him how do you

1:01:27 feel about your client being found, found innocent today?

1:01:30 And he said he was not found innocent, he was found not

1:01:33 guilty. There's a big difference.

1:01:35 Yep. So I feel like he's almost

1:01:37 admitting to the fact that he knows he probably did stuff, but

1:01:42 you haven't proved your case enough.

1:01:43 Yep. And so he goes free.

1:01:45 Yeah. And look, as much as I think

1:01:48 that sounds terrible, that a man who is quite clearly, you know,

1:01:51 guilty of this crime has gone free.

1:01:55 As you said earlier, quite possibly this was a case of an

1:01:59 accident. Yep.

1:02:00 Gone entirely wrong, taken too far.

1:02:03 If he had only gone to the, you know, and admitted that there

1:02:06 was an accident, he would have potentially then been charged

1:02:10 with manslaughter rather than murder.

1:02:13 Yep, and the time he would have got in jail is quite possibly

1:02:17 quite close to what he was on remand for.

1:02:19 Well, that's what they said. That's what they said.

1:02:21 He was on remand for 17 months. Yep.

1:02:23 So it's quite possible he spent his time in jail that he for an

1:02:28 you know, if if so, he's so-called.

1:02:29 I mean I wouldn't use the word innocent either, but for a not

1:02:32 guilty man. He spent 17 months in jail.

1:02:36 Did he spend his? Did he do his time?

1:02:37 That he, he was, he was deserved.

1:02:39 Of that remains, I mean, this is the thing.

1:02:45 This is the other thing sentencing laws like.

1:02:47 So had he been found guilty, and I think given how good his

1:02:53 lawyer was, had he been found guilty, it wouldn't have been

1:02:56 for murder. It would have been for

1:02:57 manslaughter. Yeah.

1:03:01 Yeah. What what would his sentence

1:03:02 have been anyway? It's.

1:03:05 I mean, it's interesting to note too that so I think 2002 they

1:03:09 attempted an inquest but it was rejected. 2006 they did do an

1:03:13 inquest and in that inquest it was found that it was highly

1:03:17 likely that Greg was in some way responsible for Jaden's death.

1:03:22 But it was actually found pretty much in equivocally that he

1:03:26 certainly did dispose of Jaden's body, which with one without the

1:03:31 other sort of don't, don't go so.

1:03:33 I found that really interesting because yeah, why would they

1:03:38 find? I don't know, I, I, I couldn't

1:03:41 actually find the reasoning. You actually can read the entire

1:03:44 finding, which is 92 pages long. So I didn't read the whole

1:03:47 thing. Why not to be completely fair,

1:03:52 but I find that really interesting, that on the balance

1:03:55 of probability, they found that he was involved potentially in

1:03:59 Jayden's death, but that he definitely disposed of the body.

1:04:02 I, I So what? Sorry.

1:04:04 What he actually said was he contributed to the death and

1:04:07 that he likely disposed of the body.

1:04:10 Yeah. So yeah.

1:04:12 I mean, at the end of the day here, unfortunately, I think

1:04:15 Jayden's death is a culmination of poor parenting.

1:04:19 Yeah. Is that awful of me to say?

1:04:21 No, it's not because I. Think there was so many points

1:04:25 here where could things could have been intervened to avoid a

1:04:28 death of a beautiful baby boy? Yeah, yeah.

1:04:32 He would have been 28 years old now.

1:04:34 So the thought of that, you know, life, like his whole life

1:04:38 has just gone. Yeah, on his on what would have

1:04:41 been his 18th birthday, Belinda wrote a letter to him that she's

1:04:45 actually only shared in a couple of places.

1:04:48 So if if you look for it, you can find it.

1:04:50 It's a really heart wrenching and heartbreaking letter.

1:04:54 She. Invented to Greg or to Jayden

1:04:57 because in. It's to Greg on on Jayden's 18th

1:05:01 birthday. Yeah, she basically outlines the

1:05:05 fact that she's lost everything in Louis and Jaden.

1:05:09 She's lost her entire family. So I'm assuming relationships

1:05:13 have been completely fractured since.

1:05:15 I mean, the grieving of a parent who's lost a child, I cannot

1:05:19 even fathom it. It would ruin your life.

1:05:24 You could never. You are living with that for the

1:05:28 you have to live with that for the rest of your life.

1:05:32 She says in the letter that she wakes up every day and and

1:05:36 thinks of him. She goes to sleep every night

1:05:38 and often cries herself to sleep thinking of him and what he

1:05:41 would be and what would be, you know, happening for him in his

1:05:44 life at the time. The thing that I found really

1:05:48 heart wrenching about the letter though, she says at the end of

1:05:50 it, please, please write down what you have done and give it

1:05:58 to somebody who can let us know once you're dead.

1:06:01 I need to know. It's like she.

1:06:03 Because he lied so much, it's so muddy now what the truth is,

1:06:07 because throughout this he's changed his story so much and

1:06:12 none of it's obviously truth. I don't think there's any.

1:06:14 But there's elements of truth. But then where are those bits of

1:06:17 truth you can try and piece together?

1:06:19 Becomes so complicated. Have you seen that interview

1:06:22 with him? I think it was on.

1:06:24 It was a Channel 9 programme. Under investigation on this

1:06:28 case, yes. Yeah, I did.

1:06:29 Yeah, Yeah. I don't think that he would have

1:06:31 the brain cells to even be able. To.

1:06:34 Recall what happened like. I think that into.

1:06:37 Himself. And he has.

1:06:38 He. Haven't done enough drugs over

1:06:40 the time to just completely I don't.

1:06:43 I don't think he'd have the the frame of being the frame of mind

1:06:47 or have the ability to to get his thoughts down on paper.

1:06:53 Because it had said that he was, it's not an intelligence thing

1:06:58 whatsoever. He was incredibly manipulative.

1:07:01 So something that really stuck out to me was Belinda wrote and

1:07:04 it's been, it's an unpublished book that she wrote and she

1:07:07 allowed, she gave it to the Herald Sun at one stage.

1:07:11 So snippets of it have been used in articles in OK, in the Herald

1:07:15 Sun and also in the book written by Michael Gleason, OK.

1:07:19 And in it she talks about, and so this was sort of a roundabout

1:07:21 at the same time as the letter she wrote to to Greg, so around

1:07:25 about when Jayden would have been 18.

1:07:27 So enough past time passed for clarity in some parts of this

1:07:32 where she hadn't spoke about the fact that prior to this event,

1:07:37 Greg would not acknowledge their relationship publicly.

1:07:40 He, yeah, he would not, you know, show affection in public.

1:07:43 He would not speak to anyone as if she was your girlfriend.

1:07:45 He didn't want anyone knowing they were together and.

1:07:47 He used to call her like Les Lesky's ex misses.

1:07:50 Yeah, it was just always he would never refer.

1:07:53 Yeah, yeah. Absolutely.

1:07:54 But then the day he came home from, he literally walked from

1:07:59 the police station. He formally interviewed, yeah.

1:08:03 About this, he walked into the house and immediately embraced

1:08:06 her and hugged her and she said that was the first time he'd

1:08:09 ever done that. And then beyond that, publicly,

1:08:13 he then continued to call her his girlfriend and call and, and

1:08:17 be affectionate. And they even, I mean, there's

1:08:19 interviews of the two of them together, you know, and things

1:08:21 like that shown where he is touching her, you know, So it

1:08:26 was a real manipulation of like she in her own mind was like,

1:08:30 this asshole's done it. And then he comes home from that

1:08:33 interview so embracingly of her that he she was like, well, how

1:08:37 then he's clearly an innocent man because otherwise, if he had

1:08:39 done it, he wouldn't want to speak to me like, and wouldn't

1:08:42 be this affectionate. And so she was.

1:08:44 It spun her out to kind of go, Oh, well, maybe he didn't do it.

1:08:49 So what a bloody head fuck. Oh.

1:08:51 Massively so. I I can feel empathy for that,

1:08:54 of that manipulation from him of then.

1:08:58 She's the most vulnerable moment in her life.

1:09:01 When that happened, her childhood was missing at that

1:09:04 point, Yeah, she had no idea what had happened.

1:09:06 She hadn't had a straight story from him.

1:09:08 In fact, she'd had multiple stories from him.

1:09:10 She didn't know what was going on.

1:09:12 She. Even tested him at one point

1:09:14 saying to him, would you like me to lie for you in the trial?

1:09:19 And she is expecting him to come back with oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:09:22 Like tell him this, you know, like.

1:09:23 And he didn't. He responded with, oh, no, the

1:09:26 truth needs to be said. You just tell them exactly what

1:09:28 you know and what what you don't.

1:09:29 Know, I think I think that's because his lawyer had already

1:09:34 spun what he was going to spin and he thought he'd get.

1:09:38 Off, yeah, but like for Belinda, sitting there, she was like, we

1:09:40 didn't take the bait. So trying to convince.

1:09:42 Her maybe he is innocent, like yeah.

1:09:45 I see these interviews. I've watched those interviews of

1:09:48 them together. And knowing what we know now,

1:09:52 you can look at them in a in a bit of a different light, I

1:09:54 suppose. And, and now that all of the

1:09:57 evidence has come out, those interviews were done before

1:09:59 Jaden's body had been found. Yeah.

1:10:02 And I like, I wonder, I wonder what Belinda thinks when she

1:10:08 looks at that now. Yeah, me too.

1:10:10 Like, I mean, she's moved on and, you know, it's got a great

1:10:13 life. She's got 4 kids now to another

1:10:15 man and she's married. Yeah.

1:10:18 So she's she's living, I mean, like she's living a much better

1:10:20 life than she was ever with Greg, that's for sure.

1:10:24 And I'm really, really happy for her for in that.

1:10:27 But yeah, this is something she'll live with forever.

1:10:29 And that the questions over what happened to him will forever be,

1:10:34 which is so sad, so very. She she was part of the the

1:10:38 group that got together and lobbied the government to change

1:10:41 those double jeopardy laws. Yeah.

1:10:43 Which will now allow. Look, if there's significant

1:10:46 evidence that comes forward, if he goes blabbing his mouth to

1:10:49 someone and someone comes forward, then he could be tried

1:10:52 again. So if there's significant, yeah.

1:10:55 Yeah, so I mean, we can only keep fingers crossed that yeah,

1:10:59 something happens for her sake to know then what the real truth

1:11:01 is. I, I feel I, I, I agree with

1:11:04 you. That would be amazing.

1:11:06 I just honestly don't don't that it's going to happen.

1:11:08 No, but I think, you know, in her own, I think kudos to her to

1:11:12 get some positive out of this that in the future, whether it's

1:11:16 this case or another case that that means that someone gets

1:11:20 some closure. I think that that's got to give

1:11:22 you a little bit of heart and that look, she made some wrongs

1:11:24 here that could have avoided this possibly happening.

1:11:27 So I guess that that's a positive out of.

1:11:29 It for sure. Well, on that note, I think that

1:11:32 sort of comes to the end of the case.

1:11:34 It's sure it's incredibly sad and, oh, absolutely heart

1:11:40 wrenching, yeah. That poor kid.

1:11:42 Poor boy and he's so cute. Very.

1:11:46 Photos of him you see with Rosie bring.

1:11:48 Cheeks of cute. Yup yeah, yeah, little lovey.

1:11:53 All right, so I guess that's it for another week.

1:11:57 We'll be back next week with a new case and we'd love it if you

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1:12:35 Besties stay. Curious.