Episode 70 - Matthew Leveson

0:14 Welcome back to Crime Besties. After a couple weeks break, we are back for another episode and we really appreciate you guys joining us today. Absolutely. After a break. Really appreciate everyone and like the beautiful messages online when we put out there on Instagram and, and our socials that, you know, we were taking the break. So I really, really appreciate that. Unfortunately, had my dad pass away just a couple of weeks ago so or just barely even not Even so it's and it was very unexpected.

0:47 So we sort of had to scrap what we were doing with this, obviously, and focus on other things and family and, and, and do that. So, and I just wanna say I really appreciate the beautiful messages that came through on all of our socials. I actually really overwhelmed by how incredible everyone was. So thank you for sticking with us over these last two weeks where we took a break. We're back and I am not focused, but I. No one expects you to be. I know that well, I know my dad would want me to be here doing this because he he not that he was a listener of the podcast cause technology.

1:20 Oh, but Oh well, my mum is an avid listener and he would often like go, are you talking to me on the phone? Like no, I'm listening to her podcast. Does she not listen to it with earbuds? It's like out. Oh no, God, no. Technology is not there yet. No, yeah, sorry. I know. But I know Dad was very like happy with me doing this. So it's definitely something I needed to get back to and it's refocusing my brain somewhere else. So I apologise that I am definitely the Co host today. Like I am like, you know, backseat driver here.

1:51 Not at all. Not at all. I think, you know, all your dad wanted was to see you happy. And he saw that, how happy this made you. Yeah. You know, a bit of a passion project on the side of there's everything else in life. Which I definitely a trade of my dad's. So yeah, I'm here to bring on the passion objective, Yeah. And something else, you know, in the extra projects that you have, you add to your life. So I, I very much want to be here and doing this. And I know that I'm doing the right thing by him to be here.

2:15 So 100% yes. Just can't promise the brain is with me. And it doesn't need to be. We'll be, we'll be. Look, we were just saying before we hit record, we've been less prepared before so. Yes. I feel like we're gonna. You're gonna do great. I know you're gonna do great. I know you're gonna do great. No, I'll be here with you. No, not at all. Not at all. Just to shift the subject slightly, I just have, I do have a little bit of a humble brag today. Oh, yeah. All right. So I think we might have even discussed this last year around Christmas that I am a massive Black Friday.

2:53 Get all your shopping done. Kind of a gal for Christmas. Yeah, ask me how many more Christmas presents I have to buy. Don't even. I don't even want to know. One and it's my work KK and I'm waiting for you don't. Even know who you've got yet? Do you? I just found out. I literally just found out yesterday. Yeah, I'm gonna say it. Fuck. You, I mean, you've got a really good excuse I'm. Feeling really under the pump this year because actually life has gone. On I've been on the pause for a few. Weeks, Oh my God, by Friday sales this weekend I need to go out and the last thing I want to do is from going to the shop.

3:29 Okay so another thing, I've only been to the shops once. Yeah, I am definitely online shopping this year. Like even I'm always avid online shopping. Yeah, but even more so this year. I just can't face the shops. But I have. There's one particular gift that I'm like, I'm gonna have to go into those shops. You wanna go and see it? I wanna go and speak to someone. I wanna make sure I'm getting the right thing. I'm. I'm gonna need to go in and actually find a person who works so he knows what they're talking about.

3:56 Oh good. Luck. Oh, good luck. Like. Yeah. Do they exist? I'm not. I'm not. I'm really not sure because also you get all the Christmas casuals around this time of year and and you're like, do you actually actually know what's going on? Been here for a couple of days, have you? Yeah. Yeah, so if you hear my doorbell ringing at any point. It's all I love that I finished all my shopping, now I'm just waiting for it to all arrive. Quite literally, I actually just before I had three notifications to say I'm getting stuff today.

4:27 Wow. And the other day Adrian, my neighbor was saying she's like the Amazon van came here today and she's like, I can't believe how many boxes it got. Okay, Amazon is great and I like, I'm conflicted about Amazon though, because I'm like, do I really want to be giving Jeff Bezos all of my money? Like he doesn't need more money, but at the same time well done to you because it's fucking great. Really also like we've got prime, so most stuff comes either that day or the next day and the. Simple fact of that is what makes me go if I can get this on Amazon, I don't have to pay shipping.

5:02 I will go looking for it there and as well as wherever else I. Found it. So almost everything I bought it was cheaper on Amazon. Yeah. So not that this is an ad for Amazon, although Amazon if. You would like to sponsor? Actually, we love you, Jeff Bezos. You. Would not say no to that. You would not say no. But yeah, I just so yeah, I am actually expecting to start. Love the forget the Ding Dong doorbell in the in the background just as Christmas presents arriving. And they'd better come today before the kids bloody get home from.

5:32 School, this is the other thing, it's getting the deliveries pre children arriving. Home, it's fine. In an Amazon box, that's fine because I just like, no, you're not opening or not opening it now. Yeah. Some of the things that we've ordered, yeah, they'll come in packaging that identifies what's inside. We need to normalize, especially around the Christmas time. Definitely making it look very boring. Boring packaging. Yeah, yeah, no logos. I did one the other day where and I've only I've used this once now.

5:56 Now I don't know if I can use it again, but a package arrived and it was one that was a really good one that I'm like, oh God, you guys can't see that. And so I'm actually gonna pick it up from fucking post office as well. And I'm like, so the boys actually come in with me to get it and I'm like, it's my hair, it's my shampoo, my conditioner, because I ordered that online. But I'm like, I ordered it like three months ago, which I normally it might last way longer than that when I do order. And so I'm like, no, no, it's just my champagne and conditioner.

6:18 Like, you know, like it's nothing exciting. You don't need to unpack it for me. I'll unbox like when I'm ready for it. Thanks though. Yeah, yeah. So how many more boring things can I say I'm ordering? Yeah. Oh. God. Oh, it's just close for me. Yeah. I don't know. Yeah, I usually tell them like things like, Oh no, that's presents for their cousins or whatever. Yeah. But yeah, it's only so many times you can get away with that. Yeah, yeah. Have you put up your Christmas tree yet? We did last week on Monday, actually.

6:48 We did that after school. Yeah, that was. Fun. Oh, how fun. In what way was that? Like fun or fun? How does something so freaking joyous turn into an absolute shit show? What was the shit show about? Was it about putting the star on the? Christmas star on the tree is always like the biggest thing. And like, So what I do right is every year now, I write on a piece of paper, you know, like I've written for this, you're like 262026. Brody will be putting the star on the tree, that kind of thing. If you go and have a look in my Christmas box right now, I have that exact piece of paper.

7:21 So write a huge piece of paper and shove that in the the bauble box and so that when you get it out the next year, we know who's doing that. We'd be prior to us getting that piece of paper out. Brody was adamant. It's my year. It's my year. I'm doing. I know it is. It's my year and I'm like, well, I'm not answering this because I don't know. I legit write that piece of paper and that information exits my brain. Yeah, because you don't need. To I don't need to remember because I've written it down.

7:45 It's in the bubble box. Yeah, we get the ball box and as soon as I saw the piece of paper saying it was based. You knew it was going to be a shit show. Here we go.

7:56 Oh, Yup, yeah. Yeah, OK. And. I mean, everyone's a bit heightened in my house at the moment, so that just created. So much, so many. Emotions. Yeah. And yeah. So that was Yeah. I mean, we, we, I just like, kept trying to drown them out with mom, you know, Christmas music. Just turned Michael Bublé up a bit. Yeah, Mariah Carey helped a little. For a while. Oh, Mariah Carey always helps. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

8:20 I love this. I have to. Tell you this, I'll go. My work colleagues who some of them listen, one of them is well, well, she's cheers. She will she'll be leaving at the end of the year, right. And so the rest of my staff are obsessed with her have said that to replace this person who is beyond amazing. I'm not naming her because she's not allowed to be named on this podcast. She hasn't made us go viral. It's go viral, yeah. So, but she, so to replace this amazing person, they've said to me, you know, the normal criteria of what we're looking for, for a, for a new staff member, we need to add to that list of things that person can do to be able to replace this person.

8:54 And one of the key criteria this person needs to have is know all the dance moves to Mean Girls Jingle Bells Rock Dance.

9:05 Have you put that in the job ad? Oh no. They're like, they're like adamant that it has to go in the job ad this person must know every dance move to join in with them at, you know, doing it every year. Oh I love. It and every day, because this person does it every day for them. It's literally her. Like we start our day at this time of year and she does her Jingle Bell rock dance. Oh, my God, I need to see this. I actually need to see this. So yeah, she is the best. She is great cheer. Yeah, she is fantastic and irreplaceable.

9:33 Oh, absolutely. I really don't think you're gonna be able to find somebody who's got that kind of vibe about them. No, unfortunately. Absolutely, Yeah. There's a few other things mentioned, but that was. That was Well, yeah. So tonight we'll let's I'll let you know next week how the the putting up the decorations. I just love it. I. Love it, may the Force be with you is all I can. Say, I, I did say to the boys, I'm like, we'll probably get take away for dinner tonight as well. So have a think about it.

10:03 Like we all obviously need to agree on what we're gonna get. So that's gonna cause issues as well. But I'm like, at the end of the day, Dad and I have final say. Yeah, yeah. I just feel like it's just when do I get the final say? Yeah, you've got to demand the final. Say I know dictator, I can do it, yeah. Iron fist that nothing says Christmas like rolling with an iron fist.

10:30 All right, so that we do have an update as well on the easy Street case. I don't know if you saw this yesterday, but Perry Crumbles has been ordered to stand trial, so there's a directions hearing scheduled for the 17th of December. He's in custody waiting for that. Yeah, they have dropped the carnal knowledge charge, which would be a rape charge in today's language because there wasn't enough evidence tended to support that. But I, I guess they're, they've obviously got more to go on in terms of the double homicide, so.

11:03 Yeah, we. Will sort of see how that all plays out. I think it'll be. I thought they I thought the rape charges what they had the more more evidence on to be really honest, they. Did, but I think due to like there was some degradation in the in the samples and that kind of thing. I think more, more will probably, I mean we actually probably won't hear a lot about the the rape. Yeah, in the trial, but let's wait and see when the trial ends up being scheduled for. Prove that he was there. Yeah. Can that still be used in that?

11:29 Well, we don't really know a huge amount of I, I haven't been able to find a huge amount about like what evidence is going to be tended for the trial. So we'll wait and see. But our our good mate Ronnie Dulles did testify at the at the hearing and about finding the finding the knife and in the boot of his car. He was like a real. Young cop, he was a brand new cop. It was his first station. So crazy that he was. Involved so crazy. Love that. Love it. Anyway, we'll keep her, keep you guys updated on that.

11:59 It's a really interesting one. It really is. That is, I hope they get someone for it. That's. Me too, we do have a few shout outs for today so we have had some coffees bought for us. So we've got SBT, Mani, Cherie and Mim Bosch have all bought us coffees in the last couple of weeks. So thank you very, very much for that. All wine. I mean, well, let's be honest. Especially when someone doesn't make me a coffee when I get here for my record. This. Morning. God, that was that. You know what? That was 100% my bad.

12:28 I went to make myself a coffee before and I have no milk. I'd have a black coffee. Oh, did you actually go the black? Coffee. I mean, I actually don't mind a black coffee, to be honest. I don't know if I could do that, but I I do. I was gonna make a Milky coffee. Yeah, I was gonna make a latte. But yeah, I ended up just going along black, which was fine, but I know you're not into that, so I couldn't even offer you a. Coffee. I mean, I've, yeah, I have drunk them, but like, I'm, yeah. If you're gonna have one, you want it to be nice.

12:56 Yeah, I get that. So yeah, sorry, we might have to go and grab a coffee after this. Or a wine and then we've got 2 new Patreons as well. We've got Lisa Porter and KXS 04/1. So perfect welcome guys and we really appreciate your support over there as well. We. Do particularly, we've had a couple of weeks of no episodes being put out, so that's amazing that people are still supporting us incredibly well. So yeah, yeah, amazing. We've also had so I think Mim, who has bought us some coffees. She actually said that she found us about 3 weeks ago and she's listened to her entire back catalog in three weeks.

13:32 Yeah, I'm like, well, sorry, that's a lot, That's a lot. But we do really appreciate the support. And I just sent her a message, Jay, saying, oh, we're recording today. So we've got a new episode coming out next week. So you don't have to wait too too long for that. No, that's right. We'll be, we'll be regular. I mean, we'll have a break over Christmas, but you know. Yeah, yeah, we'll probably let you guys know what our Christmas schedule is. In the coming week, that's a good idea. We'll put on the socials what the plan is so you know how to plan yourself out.

13:59 If you are not following us on the socials, which I believe from a couple of messages we've received because we put out the message about having our couple of week delay a couple of weeks off on the socials. I from some messages we got through Spotify. I think that we do have some listeners who don't follow us on the socials. So please go ahead because we do do our updates over there. You can see all of the case notes that Meg pops up and all of the pictures. It's a really good way to sort of visualize what it is that we're talking about.

14:27 So go and follow us on Instagram at 2 Crime besties and you can follow us on Facebook as well. We post everything over there. We also have a TikTok at 2 crime besties so follow us on everything on YouTube. Well, yeah, YouTube's there too. Yeah, YouTube's there too. It's a bit of an afterthought, but YouTube is there, All right? Should we get into today's case? Let's jump right in for it, so. Today we are discussing the death, the murder of of Matthew Leveson. And this case really gets me. And it's because of his parents, his dad in particular, his mom.

15:07 Absolutely. Like they are just salt of the earth, you know, the loveliest, most genuine, down to earth people. Yeah. And I, I cannot, you cannot fault them for what they have done for Matthew in the wake of his disappearance and subsequent death. Yeah. And I just think, oh, my God, they are an inspiration. I yeah. When I think about them, it actually makes me feel really emotional because of what they've had to do and what their life has become because of, because of all of this and everything come of it.

15:43 Yeah, they like they've had to step up too, because unfortunately there were failings in this and the fact that I think if almost any other family this would happen to, this would just get lost into the ether and they have not allowed that to happen for their son. They have fought every bit. They have learnt a lot themselves. They have done so much themselves so that they've not ended up, you know, broke on everything in terms of trying to manage all of this from every aspect. Yeah, they are. They are.

16:10 They are impressive people. Very much so. Very, very much so. Yeah. So Matthew Leveson was born on the 12th of December in 1986. He was actually born a day after his older. So his older brother Peter's birthday is on the 11th of December, which is also my brother's birthday. That's funny, but it's the the story that Faye tells about his birthday is actually really funny. So she actually went into labour with him two months before he was due. Yeah. And they went to, apparently they were quite a ways away from the hospital, and she'd gone into labour, obviously, very, very early.

16:49 And so Mark tells this story of, like, speeding down the highway to get her to the hospital. Got her to the hospital. And they ended up being able to stop labour. And Matt was then born. They ended up inducing Faye a couple of months later. And they booked the induction date for the 11th of December, which was their oldest son Peter's birthday. Yeah. And she's like, all I had to do was keep my legs crossed until after midnight. I did not care. About once she's not. She's like, after it was midnight, it was fine.

17:17 He was able to come, but I had to really, you know, really try not to. And anyway, she succeeded in that. Yeah. And, and Matt was born on the 12th of December and he, Faye was saying that she made sure that they always had Peter and Matt always had separate birthdays, separate parties, separate cakes, separate everything. I just love that. Love that 'cause I mean it. Just shows what kind of a person she is. Absolutely. I mean, that's a, it's, it's a lot to, you know, to have your kids birthday parties and things and when they're that close together, I mean, it sometimes just makes it easier do it all together.

17:50 I know I've done it one year and joined my kids birthday party together and they love that birthday party. Like, you know, 'cause my kids aren't that far away in terms of their birthday dates. So it's, it's, yeah, it, it can be pretty tricky managing that. So I'm good on it. I mean, she's, it's hard work, yeah. But she is that type of person. Like, I can totally, totally see it. Yeah. Yeah. She's. She's very, very funny. So they then went on Faye and Mark then went on to have a third child by the name of Jason.

18:19 So they had three boys. They grew up you. Know energetic, energetic. They grew up in Sydney and in NSW in did Cronulla and Cronulla or is it? Yeah, OK. That was where living and this, yeah, and everything I researched, but I didn't see anywhere else that they moved from. Was it Hollywood? Oh yeah, that was mentioned, yeah. Yeah, Anyway, they, they went to the same local primary school. Once Peter left primary school, they actually moved the boy, the two younger boys to a different primary school because that they were just some issues with the with the their first primary school.

18:51 And Faye says that Matt really blossomed once he moved across. He really found his people and he found like some really lifelong friends and he really fit in. Whereas I don't know that that was necessarily his experience at their their first primary school. They then went on to go to the same high school as one another. And I think Matt was maybe not the most studious necessarily in that. I'm not saying he wasn't studious. I think he was driven. Yeah. But Fay said that he wasn't really good at spelling.

19:25 Mm Hmm. And that kind of ended up holding him back a little bit. He thought he might wanna study. I think it was biomedical science or. Yeah, that's pathology. It was something to do that pathology. Yeah. And he did part of the course and then failed an exam and it was all because of the spelling. He tried again, unfortunately like missed out by 1. Mark, it was something so close and so then he like gave it away. Which was like. I felt for him like, I mean spelling it's. Hard. It's bloody hard. And I feel like in this day and age that probably.

19:55 Won't, honestly, that's what I was thinking too, I reckon too. And potentially if there was some sort of, I don't know, dyslexia with that or whatever, it might have been more picked up these days and he would have been able to go on and do that. But yeah, yeah, that's really unfortunate for him, I felt. For him. Yeah, Yeah. So in, in leaving that though, he basically, well actually when he was doing his HSE, let's go back. So doing his year 11 and it was actually his year 12. Year 12, yeah. And he was very comfortable in high school, he'd had a girlfriend.

20:24 They were together for a little while and then they kind of broke up but remained extremely good friends and and he so this friend of his, this ex-girlfriend, best friend of his, Matt ended up coming out to her first. And he really sort of then started telling more and more of his friendship group and it was coming up to his final exams in year 12 and I guess he must have felt like it was hanging over his head well. I think he like he, you know, with the exam situation, he was in a lot of stress on him for the exam situation and that that was hanging over him as well, that he hadn't told his parents that information.

21:04 I think that the combination of the two was like, if I tell my parents this, I can focus on my exams better. Like I can get that off my chest, you know. So I think that was where it was sort of sitting for him was I need to get this out of my head and move on from it. Like because he didn't know what the reaction would be, which I think I find interesting that that he find that. Interesting. Yeah. So he ended up writing a letter to his mum and dad and he left it on the kitchen bench. Sent them a text message saying kill him, fuck I'd kill him.

21:33 Left a text message on the sent them both a text message to say I've left a letter on the bench for you, can you please read it? Oh my God. And then he went to his friend's house and waited there until so Faye said. She was just beside herself and then she read it and she was like, oh, is that all it is? Yeah. I love that. That was like, you know, like, yeah, like we kind of knew, like. Well, she said from the time he was four she knew. Yeah, it wasn't a surprise and nor did it matter to them. It was not an issue to them at all.

22:01 No, Faye did say that she cried. And it wasn't because Matt was gay, it was because she, at the time, gay hate crimes were really prevalent and she was scared for him. She was just worried. For that stuff. And I think as a parent I can understand that. But yeah, just like wanting your child to have their best life and not have to worry about that shit, which is just as awful, like, you know, so I can understand where she was coming from with that like. But I mean, yeah, but they they clearly need their mum, their parents.

22:33 And what was interesting hearing that, I think it was her parents or that, yeah, that's right, sorry, Mark's parents had passed away by this stage. But he said his parents would have accepted Matt for being gay 100%, whereas her parents I think were still around and that that's that wasn't something they were gonna be able to accept. Really. Well, basically tell her they just didn't tell them. Yeah. And I mean, we can get to how that all came out to them later, but so. Yeah, he was just living his best life at this point, I guess, getting that off his chest, doing the HSC, and then he ended up obviously getting into this pathology course and all of that sort of stuff.

23:09 Yeah, you know, beyond that. So once the pathology course was no longer, Matt ended up getting a job at the NRMA call centre or even. Before that big, WE loved to work WWI. Think he was doing that while he was at uni maybe, which I mean, we've all had those part time jobs. It's it's a very relatable. Yeah, he yeah. So he then started working at the NRMA call centre and he worked from Tuesday to Saturday. Yeah. And he actually really made a couple of really he was friends with everyone. It sounds like he was just a really lively, bubbly, happy person.

23:43 Yeah. You know, one of those people that everyone gets along with And. But in particular, he made friends with two people. Mm. Hmm. And in particular, a girl by the name of Carrie Anne. Yeah. And they would see each other outside of work, but then also when they were at work, they'd have lunch together and all of that sort of stuff. And by her account, he loved his job. He never called in sick. He was always there, really helpful, great with his, you know, customer service, good at doing what he did.

24:09 And it afforded him the life that he wanted, which at that time, he was 20 years old at this time. Mm Hmm. And he wanted to party. He wanted to go out and have a great time and have fun and meet new people and dance and all of this sort of stuff. Yeah, I guess just really quickly around this time or just preceding his job at NRMA, Matt did have a, a boyfriend, yes. So I think they were together from year 12. So it was a little bit before Matt came out to Faye and Mark and his brothers and they were together for quite some time.

24:43 And he was a lovely boy. They got along really, really well. They travelled a lot together. So they would go, they went internationally, they went into state, they'd get apparently they used to go on the computer, you know, midnight on it to get like tide US Tuesday flights. Yeah, yeah. Sail flights. That's right. So that you get really great, you know, like $50 flights like Tassie and stuff like that and just jump on a plane and go, yeah. What a life like. Totally. Only a 18/19/20 year old could do that.

25:11 Yeah. So, yeah, they, they really, you know, they loved spending time with one another, but it kind of got to a point where I think they were both looking for, to explore something else. They were both so young. I don't think anything happened. Nothing bad happened, but they decided to part ways and sort of go their separate ways. I believe they remained friends and remained in contact and around. Well, around this time, actually, Matt met a man by the name of Michael Atkins. We're going to call him Atkins because that is the way that Mark and Faye refer to him.

25:48 They don't want to give him his, they don't want his first name. They don't want to use it. They don't believe in it. So I think we'll we'll probably continue down that same track. So Atkins it is. Now, Atkins was significantly older than Matt. Significantly like, was it 25 years? 25 years older. Yeah. Yeah, it's a lot. So being that Atkins was 25 years Matt senior, he'd actually only been out as being a gay man for about four or five years prior to meeting Matt. They met, yeah, they met in early 2006 and Atkins was a door security person.

26:27 Mm Hmm. At the Sutherland Sports Club and before that, he worked as a security guard at Star City Casino in Sydney. He also, Atkins also had like, I guess to make a little bit more money, he had like, arcade machines in different places, like. And one of the places, yeah, that he had a machine in will become relevant later on in the story. Yeah, but. Were they vending machines or arcade games? I think. There were arcade games. Vending machines. OK, cool. I think it was like a basketball game. Oh, OK.

27:02 Right. Yeah, yeah, right. So I mean, yeah. OK, so he was 1/3 Dan Black belt in ninjutsu. Yeah. And in the 1990s. So the fact that even in the 1990s he was working just says a lot. Yeah. But in the 1990s, he owned a oh, what was it like a a Dojo? Yeah, right. Because like, that's like he was like at a level of like beyond a black belt. Yeah, it was. It was like. You. Like levels. Oh, my God. That was my doorbell. Just in case you heard it. That was delivery number one. Yeah. So that was. Yeah. So he was like beyond a black belt.

27:39 So he. He's able to have his own Dojo, I think, because of that. Yeah. Don't know what happened to that business, but he wasn't doing it at the time of Matt's death. He was actually working as an electrician for a large electrical company. Yeah. So. So Atkins really enjoyed socializing with men of Matt's age group. Yeah, he's been known to have relationships with men as young as 17 or boys as young as 17. Being a 45 year old man, it's just, it's disgusting. Yeah, I really can't get my head around like that at all.

28:18 I really struggle with that. Imagine if there were 17 year old girls. This is exactly it. Man, like there's. Not enough outrage of it, Predator. Yeah, I I agree. Because if this was yeah, just say if this was mixed gender, it would be outrage. But what, because they're gay men? There's not as much. And I find it. I feel like, no, I have the same rage. I'm 100%. I don't I don't like it. It's it's gross how imbalance is there and it's not OK. Oh, and his behaviour is predatory. The fact that he's going around seeking out young boys and young men like I, I, you can't tell me 1819 year olds with a 45 year old.

28:57 No, no, I don't. That's an absolute hard no. No. And I mean, I get where like, like where his parents were coming from in that they struggled with that and trying to like, have conversations with Matt about it in that I guess it's very new to them of like, managing this whole scenario of like, you know, their son is gay or what have you. But I couldn't have handled it. I couldn't have not spoken up more. Have you said something like, have you heard Faye and Mark talking about this? Yeah, that so from very early on in their relationship.

29:25 Yeah. First of all, Faye and Mark had no idea how old he was. Right. Yeah. OK, so they met well, but he. Lied, didn't He did lie about his age so. He said he was. He was 34 when he was in fact 45. Too old. But it's better, it's 11 years better, but it's still not good. No, but that to me the fact that he lies shows he knows it's not right. This is it exactly. Right. So when Faye and Mark met Atkins for the first time, they all went out for dinner at some restaurant in Cronulla, and Mark says Matt walked in with an old man.

30:03 Yeah, they call him an old man, and that to me was like, well then, Lil, it's gross. And but, you know, Matt had said he's 34 and Mark was like, well, you know, he was definitely closer to our age because he liked the same. Music, same music, all those sorts of things. He was more that era like he was. Only in the end, Well, again, we'll get to how they found that out. But he was only, in the end, five years younger than Mark and three years younger than Faye. No, Yep. Oh, vomit. Yep. Vomit. No.

30:31 Total, total vomit. No. So Matt and Atkins, they so when they first got together, obviously there was a little bit of I feel like Matt probably knew this wasn't kosher. Like if you you know he's dating an older man. At one point, Matt actually went missing in that he. Went early on in this year. In their relationship, he went and stayed with Atkins for a few days, wasn't contactable. I think Faye and Mark had maybe let their feelings know that he wasn't really, they weren't really approving of the relationship and Matt kind of pushed away.

31:11 They were unable to contact Matt at this point. So they actually did end up going to the police and reporting him missing. Yeah. And, you know, eventually, a few days later, Matt's made contact with them. They've started communicating again. Obviously they've let the police know that Matt's being found and he's all good and well. Fine. It's all OK around about that time as well, Matt decides to move in with Atkins. And even this I find really bizarre because Matt obviously really wanted that, and Atkins also wanted that.

31:45 Atkins wanted him to himself. Yeah. And but then Faye talks about how after Matt's death, they actually discovered that Matt hadn't moved straight into Atkins house or Atkins apartment. He had actually been essentially living out of his car. He wasn't allowed to move any of his possessions into the unit for months. Wasn't allowed to be there unless Atkins was there. And so then he would have to let, he'd get home from work and wait in his car until Atkins got home so that he could so he could go in.

32:15 So I wouldn't know what the arrange. I mean, I'd love to understand was the arrangement from Atkins, you're moving in with me. But these are the rules. You have to abide by them. Or was Matthew like, oh, my parents aren't happy with me seeing him, but I need to commit to this, you know, And so I'm going to say I've moved in with him, but I haven't. And I'll push it so that Mark, so that Atkins will let me move in. I feel like that could actually go either way. But yeah, my gut feeling on it is it was the first.

32:44 Same. Yeah. And that makes it even more awful. Yeah, for sure. That is. So that's coercive control. 100% and look I, I think the more we talk about this, the more you'll see you guys will see that or hear that there was so much coercive control involved in this relationship and it is not OK. It is never ever OK. So they in, in all of this, I guess event actually, Matt did move in in an official capacity, got a key. Yeah. Was able to move his clothes into part of a wardrobe. Yeah. And, you know, they were essentially living together then.

33:22 What Faye says is that after Matt had gone missing that first time, he said to her, I will never, ever do that again. I am so sorry. I understand how how awful that was. Genuinely got how upset his parents were and that he promised he'd never do it again. Yeah. And Faye, of course, believed him, like, because he was so genuine. He saw how distressed he was. He didn't want to upset his mum and dad. He was, he was still figuring things out. And the fact that he was now with this much older man who, and as you pointed out, Meg, there was a massive power imbalance right from the the early stages of this relationship.

34:00 Yeah, Matt probably didn't really know where he stood. No, no, I think, you know, these people that managed to do this are incredibly manipulative. He had some hold over him that will never understand. And that I'm not saying that to be like, you know, that. Oh, Matt should have seen it because in those incidents, when they can do that to you, it's incredible how much you are blinded by what's going on. And the fact that he could potentially, I do lean this way that, yeah, that he could potentially say to him, you know, yeah, you've moved in with me, but you can't be in my apartment on your own.

34:34 I mean, that should be a red flag entirely to someone. But in these situations, there'll be a way that that was put to him of like, no, no, this is what I deserve or this is how this is how this works in this world. That's what happens. It's my apartment. Yeah, you're. I'm just letting. You be letting you be here and you're you should feel privileged for that. I don't know how they do it because I'm not that way inclined, but they've got language they to be able to make you feel that that's what is OK and that you're supposed to just OK.

35:02 Like it doesn't, it's like it, right? But OK. All right. Well, I guess the benefit outweighs the negative here somewhere. You need to be grateful for the little, for the little crumbs they're Dang like giving to you. Yeah, so shit. Matt and Atkins, their lifestyle was, well, they'd work. They were going to work, going to the gym, and they would party at the Ark nightclub in Flinders St. in Darlinghurst on a Saturday night. They, well, when I say Saturday night into the early hours of Sunday morning because they often would party until 5:00 or 6:00 in the morning.

35:36 Yeah. Now, Atkins being 45 years old, I'm 40, I could not do that. But anyway, day drinking is my new favorite hobby. There is nothing better than a day drink. So I had a normal 8 at 8:00 PM. And did you have a really good sleep? Yes, obviously. Nothing beats it, nothing beats it. So they would then generally spend the following day, like at friends places recovering. And then Matt would then go out again on a Sunday night because his weekend was Saturday, sorry, Sunday, Monday. So he could go out on a Sunday night because he didn't have work on a Monday.

36:15 Yeah. And often Atkins wouldn't attend or he would attend for. What do you let him go without him? Occasionally. Okay so well this is Atkins story though so we don't actually know. Although friends of his did testify that they would sometimes have time with Matt especially early on. OK the further their relationship got on though. The less that less that happened, yeah. They were sorry. In the trial, the friends of theirs were. Their pseudonyms were given as Jack Smith and Sally White, and they would go back to their house and party there, sometimes on a Sunday as well.

36:53 They would take drugs like party drugs, MDMA or ecstasy and GHB and it came I guess to be that Atkins was selling GHBI think I don't know if he was selling ecstasy. I believe it was just. GHB. Just GHB. Just GHB, but I believe it was GHB and they'd sell it in those little fishies, you know, the little soy. Sauce, fish, things are in there and. They were make, yeah, that they were making like an absolute fortune from this. Like they will make. Well, when I say they Atkins was making fat stacks of cash selling ecstasy it at the nightclub.

37:33 And well, I think, I think Matt would sell it as well. Now, would he have done so had he not been involved in a relationship with Atkins? Who knows? But obviously being involved with him and this was just something that they did that was, yeah, that was definitely something that they would do on a Saturday night at ARC. Yeah. They would generally take Matt's car to ARC and Atkins would drive normally. So Matt had a Toyota Corolla, green Toyota Corolla, and it so Peter had had an old car and that had a massive stereo system in it.

38:11 Yes. And then he upgraded his car or got a new car and the stereo system didn't fit. So he gave it to Matt. Yeah. And helped him install it in his Toyota Corolla subwoofers, which apparently took up like 75% of the boot. Now a Corolla boot isn't massive massive anyway, but like for it to take up 75% of the boot it must have been. Huge. Oh, it was just like the style at the time. Yeah, like I. Remember, I wonder if you had one of those cars plates? That oh the faceplate took off and take with you.

38:40 I know I had one of those. Yep, I think we all did that was and my shitty. Car was like the stereo was worth more than my car. Yeah. Oh, same, easy, same. I don't know, I used to use a club lock on my car sometimes too and I could use the club lock key to unlock my car. That's. Not right. It helped in a pinch. You couldn't start the car with the club lock key though, you could just open it. OK, that's Yep, that's not great then, because then you can get in the car and unlock the car blocks. Yeah, that's right.

39:12 And then, I don't know, it was such a shit box. No one was ever gonna steal that car a little.

39:20 I can know my shittest car that I had and it got stolen. Oh, that's right. We've talked about that on the podcast before, I think. Yeah, yeah, Oh my God, that was a piece of shit car. But I loved it with my car, yes. Anyway, so he had this subwoofer in the back and they would drive away from Arkham. Everyone, people would know that they were leaving because they could hear the music. Yeah. And the bass from the as they were driving away at like 5:00 in the morning. So I guess is there anything else you want to talk about in relation to like leading up to this point?

39:53 I don't think so. I think you're covering it so well. Thank you. Not at all. No, I think, I think you've, you've covered up very well. If there's anything else we can. Always, yeah, we always come back, but I think you've got it. OK, so on Saturday the 22nd of September in 2007, Matt and Atkins arrived at the Arc nightclub with Jack Smith, who I was talking about earlier. So he was one of the people who they'd often party with and who they would then go to their maybe for recovery on on Sundays, they arrived at about midnight again.

40:22 Oh my God, showing my age but arriving at midnight. That's I'm home in bed by midnight. And nothing good ever happens after midnight, people. That is. That's my lesson for all the young people out there. Good. Point. Good point. We'll have to instill that in our children soon. They left the club on Sunday the 23rd of September, so the next morning, early the next morning between 2:15 and 2:30 AM and which was unusually early for them. The last sighting of Matt is recorded on the ARC CCTV footage.

40:56 The footage was recorded at like on the timestamp on the footage says 2:11 AM. Yeah, but it was actually 2:20 AM because the time was out by about 9 minutes on the on the on the CCTV. OK, so a couple of unusual things. First unusual thing is that they left so early and that was very not like them. They, I mean, they'd only arrived at midnight. They would. They were. They were almost always one of the last to leave at that sort of five or 6:00 AM, So it was really unusual that they'd left a little bit earlier.

41:29 Yeah, apparently during the night. So Peter had been Peter, Matt's older brother, had been at Ark nightclub that night and had seen Matt and Atkins. He noted that they weren't together for a lot of the night and that he, like Matt, seemed happy and it all kind of looked OK. He did notice that at one point Matt and Atkins went out onto a balcony and he thinks something might have happened out there because then there was a bit of tension between them. But Peter didn't really think that much about it.

42:05 Not even enough to say to Matt, hey, what's going on? I don't think so. You know, they. That's kind of where things are at. Yeah, the lot. So after they've Matt and Atkins have left Arc nightclub, Matt texts one of his friends. At what time was that? 3:31 AM on Sunday the 23rd of September. He sent his this text to a friend named John Burns. That's another. After they've left. After they've left. Yeah, after they've left, yeah. And it basically said, actually, I've got it written down what the exchange was because it's interesting, quite interesting.

42:42 Yeah. So Mr. Burns sent Matt a text saying, hey, babe, where are you? Matt replied. Mike's having a fucking cry. He's taking me home and won't stay. Fucking cunt, Mr. Burns replied. Oh shit, that's no good, Matt replied. He needs to get over himself, Mr. Burns responded. Oh well, I'm sure you'll be all right. And that was the end of their text exchange. I. Think the last sort of sign of life that we have of Matt from that night then, yeah. That's exactly right. It's. Clear from those messages that things were not OK between him and Atkins, but it also to me says that Matt was Matthew was clear thinking.

43:27 Yep, agreed. In that he was able to text that there's not spelling errors. I don't believe in the text when I've seen. That there's like nuances in, you know, like the way you text. Like fucking this FKN yes. Oh no, like, but to me that's actually using like, you know, your brain in terms of like actively thinking about sending messages. Like that's how you know, you text. You're not just texting like when you're drunk kind of text kind of going, you know, like he was doing his usual abbreviations, all those sorts of things of his text messaging style.

43:58 Yep. So to me he was because I guess we get to the point where, you know, Atkins, like it says that they left because Matt was too drug induced at one stage. Anyways, one of his stories that that that message, those messages don't to me correlate with that the way they've the way, the way they've written and the way and the fact that he's responded back and forth with someone. You know what I mean? 100% And Peter also says that in his interactions with Matt at the nightclub, he's like, yeah, he was on something, but he was by no means like incapacitated or anything like that.

44:33 He was just having a good time. Yeah, though they, he was known to take an EKI down here in that. Yep. But like, and so it wasn't unusual for him to have been, to have had drugs in his system or something for that. Yeah, but not to the point of where he was incapacitated and needed to get home because he was, you know, in a bad way out with drugs. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. So I mean that I guess it's really hard now to sort of know exactly what happened because we still actually have no idea. No what I get.

45:02 There's an interaction when they as they leave, too. So yeah, yeah. So they that Atkins takes Matt to the car, puts him in the car, and then he returns back to the nightclub to talk to. Is it Jack? What? What I think it is that he interacts with back at the nightclub and he goes to him and has another conversation with him and I think this is seen on CCTV that he is there for about like 30 minutes and then returns back to the car and leaves. So again, if he's taking Matt home because he's so drug induced and he's out of control, like needs help for this, how much drugs he's had, you're gonna leave him in the car for 30 minutes on his own and go back in and go and do things.

45:50 There was also a text message exchange between him and Matt saying I need more of the GHB drugs. Well, that's right. He needed to get more. So he needed to get more off of him to be able to go back to this Jack White with a bit of a stash of those. So it doesn't correlate in terms of when they. Left even with it enough to be able to be like, yeah, I'll get that together for you and give it to you like. Yeah, you know, because according to Atkins, they would keep a stash in the car. They wouldn't take everything into the nightclub with them.

46:20 They would keep. They would go back and forth between the car, pop the cash back. Yeah, take some more in. Whatever. Yeah. And that's what he said he did at this point. But if they've like CCTV, CCTV footage shows that Matt left the nightclub at 2:20 AM, then you can actually see there. I believe there was other CCTV footage that showed you could see the car driving past Arc nightclub and that was at like 3, 30 or three something AM. So yeah, you're right that that fits with that time that. I think it could have been up to almost 15 minutes or something like that.

46:56 But he went back in after putting that in the car. So to me, there's been more of a, you know, there's been a, an argument between them. They're like, he's like, and look, he's quite a jealous man from what I could read about. Absolutely. To me, there's been an interaction where he's like not happy with Matt in like terms of, you know, someone else interacting with him. And so he's gone up. That's it. You're out of here. You go stay in the car. Let's go get the more drug. They are the drugs and you can stay there because, you know, you're flirting with someone or someone's flirting with you.

47:24 And so he sat in the car while he's gone back in for like 50 minutes. Like that's not someone who's then going I need to get Matt out of here. He's not. Hearing about his partner in any way. Yeah, well, Matt had worked on that Saturday at the NRMA call center and Carrie Anne, his bestie from work, her recollection of that day was that Atkins was calling him non-stop all day. And Matt would not answer, did not answer. And to the point where at lunchtime they were sitting together and she saw that that Atkins name came up on Matt's phone and he was like, fuck off, Mike.

48:07 Yeah, I just, so I think, like, I'm just looking at this from an overall perspective. I think Matt had had enough. He'd had enough. He'd gotten to the end of his tether with the controlling nature of this relationship. Yeah. He'd mentioned to Kerry Anne and to another friend that he wanted to cash out his leave at an RMA and go over to London and not go overseas for a little bit of time, just to get some distance between him and Atkins. Would have been a really good idea. He probably felt like there was no other way out.

48:38 This is it. And whether he'd communicated that with Atkins, and Atkins knew he wanted to leave and wanted to go overseas without him, I don't know. But I just wonder. I yeah, really wonder because he was losing control. Yeah, his mum also says there was just their prior, their last meeting of each other they had he had Matt had kind of lingered a little bit more and like Pete Atkins had went and he was left with his mum for a few minutes that she tried to approach him to have a bit of a try and have a conversation of like, hey, are you happy in this relationship kind of chat.

49:14 And she felt like she was going to be able to get somewhere with him And Atkins appeared and it just and ended it and it was all done and couldn't be spoken about again. So I think. Faye and Mark tried on so many occasions to have that conversation, but it actually got to the point where they they couldn't, they couldn't get mad on his own one day. So Faye and Mark, or Mark is an accountant, and they owned their own accountancy business. Yeah, that Faye also worked in. And one day they asked Matt to come to the office because they thought that might be a way that they can get him away from Atkins because why could Atkins want to go to the accounting firm?

49:52 Yeah, of course Atkins rocked up with Matt, and then they actually got the receptionist to engage in a conversation without. Trying to distract. Him to try and yeah distract him took Matt into the kitchen yes. Of the of the of their office workplace, I think yeah, workspace. And Faye was starting to try and again introduce that same sort of conversation. And she said in an in a moment Atkins appeared and I couldn't I couldn't do it. There was no way she could even have a a solo communication yeah with her own son.

50:28 I think that is disgusting like that is so controlling like yeah. And the fact that he was willing to do that in front of his parents, Yeah, imagine what things were like behind clothes. This is the thing I can only imagine if that's how controlling it was blatantly enough in front of others. Holy shit. Yeah. Yeah, what he would do behind closed doors. Oh. It's it's a scary, scary thought, yeah. So what we do know then is so the Sunday they've gone home in the early hours of the morning somewhere around 3:00, 3/30 and then we don't really know anything else until the Tuesday.

51:09 So Matt is due at work at his call centre job. As I said before, he very rarely if ever called in sick. He certainly wouldn't not show up for work without calling in. Jason, Matt's younger brother, was actually at home with glandular fever at the time. And Mark and Faye were at work. And the supervisor at NRMA actually phoned the the Leveson household. Jason answered the phone and said, do you know where Maddie is? And Jason was like, Nah, don't know. Don't know where he is. He doesn't really live here anymore.

51:43 Yeah. And so Jason didn't really think that much more of it when Faye rang to check I love this rang to check on Jason because he was at home with glandular fever during the day. Jason just sort of said, oh, by the way, actually Matt's work supervisor called and said he hadn't shown up for work today. Immediately, Faye knew. Something was wrong. Yeah. Yep, Yep. She rang the supervisor. The supervisor told her that Atkins had phoned twice that morning to see whether they knew where Matt was, which was odd.

52:16 Weird. And so Faye then contacted Atkins. He didn't answer his phone for a little while, but eventually he did call her back and said I don't know where he is. I thought you might know. I thought he'd at least rock up. I assumed he'd been staying with friends. This was his first story. I assumed he'd been staying with friends and I just assumed he'd rock up to work. So that's why I rang to check. Yeah, his, his initial story was that you had gone out on the Sunday. He, I think Atkins said he would, he stayed, he stayed sleeping.

52:49 He slept until like about 3:00 in the afternoon or something. And Matt, and this is where I like go. Well, this is bullshit because he, he said that like, yeah, that Matt had gone out on his own Sunday night with friends. And then so that was the last he saw of him was before he went out to go with his mates that night, which you know, as we still, we know he wouldn't have let Matt go somewhere on his. Own. Not at that point, not at. That point, absolutely no. So yeah, he tried. I mean, again, it was him sort of trying, I think make out as if he would have, but there's no way he would have.

53:18 But he changed his story three times in the 1st 12 hours of this being known to people that he was missing. Yeah. He's yeah. Oh. Yeah, yeah. It's it's, I mean, it's, it's, it's revolting. Yeah. So bad. Really, really so, so bad. So basically this is on the Tuesday sort of morning ish that that Mark and Faye have figured. Oh my gosh, We don't actually know where Matt is. Yeah. They tried calling his phone. They've messaged him. They've called his friend, all of his friends who they know and they are quite familiar with a lot of his friends because they were that kind of family who they were very close and they're in.

54:02 Between the brothers, you know, like kind of thing, They, you know, they were friends with them as well a little bit. And so it was like if you know that Peter would know some of his mates and you know, so it was yeah, made it a lot easier, I think, for them to get around to friends and go right. Well, what's going on here? Where is he? Exactly. Right. Yeah, exactly. So that's sort of where they started. And you know, as I said, Atkins did call back, but he, you know, he's saying he doesn't know anything.

54:28 Faye and Mark giving my guests the benefit of the doubt early on. But by the time 9:00 PM comes that night, Mark and Faye were like, we have not been able to find him. We don't know where he is. We don't know where his car is. Yeah. They'd gone driven around to actually, Peter and his girlfriend had gone driving around looking for him, looking for his car, just looking like all the places he would normally go. Yeah. And Oh, by the way, actually. So this was on the Tuesday. Yeah. On the Sunday one day, Peter and his girlfriend were shopping at Woolworths.

54:59 Yes, and they'd seen. They bumped into. Atkins. At Woolworths, Yeah, without. Without Matt. Matt no. And they did, They had a conversation with him. They did, you know, like interact. They were able to tell the police in the end what he what Atkins was wearing at that point. A lilac shirt. And a cargo camo shorts. Yeah. So they were able to tell the police a bit about this interaction on the Sunday, which it really sort of sets it up a little bit, I guess. I guess because that that already says, well, your story that Matt was with you Sunday is bullshit because we saw you on Sunday at Woolworths, too.

55:39 So he had to keep trying. He had to keep changing the story because people were finding things, like new things, Yeah. Yeah, what a fuck. Weird dickhead. And so yeah, Peter Leveson called Atkins as well and was like, hey, like what's the go? Because also, it's not like Atkins said anything to Peter at Woolworths that day about Matt, no. Or that anything that he didn't know what that where Matt was or that he hadn't come home or that he'd gone out and he didn't know where he was. Nothing was mentioned like that at.

56:08 All. So this is now back to the Tuesday evening. Mark and Faye call Atkins, and they say meet us down at the police station. We're reporting Matt missing. Yes. Atkins. Atkins. They had to call him three times before he agreed to go down there and meet him. And Mark basically said to him, you were the last person to see him. You need to come. You will be there. So they met. Wouldn't you want to? Oh, my God. Exactly. Yeah. Why would you resist? They go down to to the police station at 11:00 PM that night, on Tuesday night and report map missing.

56:44 And this is where Mark and Faye learn how old Atkins is because they have to fill out a police report and part of that is giving identification. Mark and Faye hand over their licenses. And Faye says, in a really bizarre turn of events, he, Atkins, had written down on a piece of paper his details. Right. So he didn't have to say it out loud and passed it over to the police officer who was taking down the statement. That's. Even more evidence that he knows how wrong it. Is 100% but Mark says even though I have really shit eyesight, I actually could see his date of birth on there and I realized he's 45, not 34.

57:29 Sickening. Disgusting, and so obviously that immediately alarm bells. Alarm bells for them. Yeah. I think for Faye, she already had a lot of bells about him big time. I love that, you know, and I love it about him. But Mark was a little bit more, oh, you know, like it's just how things go and, you know, and that loved him and. Yeah. Accepted the fact that this was the person that his son had fallen in love with. Where? His mum. I'm on to you. She, she, her. Her gut instinct was kicking in immediately.

58:01 I think from when she first met him, yeah, That things weren't right about him. That's it. Yeah. So the very next day. So part of that, they've obviously said that they've reported what Matt's car is, make and model and all of that sort of stuff. So it was actually on the Thursday, Thursday, the morning of the 27th of September, the police located Matt's car and it was parked at Waratah Oval. Yeah. Now in Sutherland, now This site is significant for for a couple of reasons, but the main reason is that these arcade machines that Atkins housed were at the facility at this next door to this Oval.

58:42 And you can see where at where Matt's car was parked from, where his machines, these machines that he tends to, you know, every fortnight or whatever. Yeah, you could see where my car was parked from there. Wow. So the police have done a search of the car and they found some empty food wrappers on the floor near the passenger seat. Faye and Mark had said that in the boot there was this massive subwoofer. So they've opened the boot to sort of have a look and see what was what was the going there.

59:13 The boot was empty. Besides, not completely empty. Aside from one little thing. Yeah, and that was a Bunnings warehouse receipt. Mm hmm for 12:20 on Sunday the 23rd of September. And what was on the receipt, Meg? There was 2 items purchased. Mm hmm. From Bunnings, there was a, we'll call it a pickaxe, basically attic. Yeah. And the other thing was some duct tape, some fairly heavy duty duct tape. Yeah, like, like gaffer tape, gaffer tape, Yeah, like really heavy duty gaffer tape. Yeah, they were able to.

59:45 Then from that receipt, the police did go down to the Bunnings where it was purchased from. Because it was purchased in cash too? Yes, it wasn't purchased with the credit card. Credit card, so they went down, they're able to get the CCTV from that Bunnings and on it they could see that that. Those items were purchased by a person wearing a lilac T-shirt and cargo shorts that were camo. Exactly how Peter and his girlfriend had described Atkins that day on the Sunday when they had bumped into him shortly after this.

1:00:15 So he was buying things like at Woolies that day as well. So on the CCTV they were very clear that that was him, like there was no question. Apparently it was like some of the clearest CCTV footage, yeah, ever, because it was at a cash register. Yeah, it's close. You can close face. It's not like, oh, could that be him? Yeah, it's not a distance. If someone is walking in a car park situation, it was it was up close. They knew it was him, but also matching not only like his facial like which is yeah, dough, you can tell it's him, but also then the clothing that two separate people have identified him wearing like from another time at that same day.

1:00:50 Crazy. Yeah, so they were. I had that CCTV footage. They then pull in Atkins for a chat. Now, at this point, he's cautioned he's not arrested. He is not a suspect. At this point. This is a conversation they're going to have willingly with him about what he knows of Matt look missing. So he can leave at any time, He was cautioned as a witness, yes. Not as not as a suspect. So they start to interview him and they bring up with him the Bunnings and were you at Bunnings? And he flat out lies. No, wasn't at Bunnings.

1:01:27 So the cops know he's lying. So at that point he becomes a suspect, but they do not take him out and recaution him as a suspect so that he is under full understanding of what he's obligations here are and that the fact is that he's now being looked at in a different way. That change Lee changes legally how he is looked at in the courts. So basically the fact that the the police now have changed their opinion of him means that the courts now need him to understand that for him to be for that what he gives us evidence to be able to be used in court.

1:02:06 But they don't do that. They continue to interview him and ask him about this, which he continues to deny. He they do offer him to see the CCTV footage, which at first he does agree to, but then as they talk a little bit more and get to it, he deny. He says no, don't want to see it, don't need to, it's not me. He also, I think because they said to him, anything that you say or do while you are watching this footage can be used against you, right? And so he decided, Oh no, say it. Then but they but he wasn't formally cautioned of those things like as in, you know, he wasn't taken back out to where he needs to be done.

1:02:40 That needs to be done out separately to the custody manager. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, it's it's really crap at this. This is where I'm unfortunately this case, there's so many failings from this point onwards of the from the police, yeah, that it's so this is where the Levesons are just not dealt with how they should be. Yeah, unfortunately, but yeah, so he. Didn't talk a little bit later about why we think that is. Yeah, I mean, this is, this is a procedural failure. That's I, you know, OK. That's not good.

1:03:13 Yeah. It should never have happened. I can see that. But then as things go on, there's other failures that I'm just like, why did this happen to this person? Yeah. To this family. Yeah. I wonder. Yeah, it's very interesting. Yeah. So basically in this interview, he completely denies that it's, it's him at Bunnies, but the cops are very aware it's definitely him and he's and that the items that he's purchased, I mean, I'm very suspect, like very suspect on that. He does eventually say that he did purchase those items for creating a vegetable patch back at his apartment where there's only a communal garden.

1:03:53 And even though he had never sought like the the permission to be able to do that there. He had some zucchinis that he was growing out on his deck that only on his balcony, which he he was sort of said he was going to plant them there. And like, well, like, like, what with the gaffer tape.

1:04:12 And also it was very close to the beach there in Cronulla, so the sand would not have required a pickaxe or a Matic Turk. You could dig with your hands. Yeah, it was very sandy soil. So a pickaxe wasn't really required for that. Yeah. So they did. And so they did go hard on him in this interview in terms of that information. But unfortunately, because he wasn't cautioned around it, it is now unusable. And. Admissible. Unfortunately, yeah, his his story at this point to the police was that they'd obviously gone to Arc Knight Club.

1:04:39 They'd left early because they had a bit of a tip. Yep. And he was very adamant on this word Tiff rather than he kept they would use the word argument or and like, did you have an argument you're. Like, oh, we have a tiff little. Tiff. So he was really trying to minimise it big time. Absolutely. So he said that they'd gone to sleep at about 5:00 AM and woken somewhere between 2:00 and 3:00 in the afternoon. He thought that Matt had gone out to arc with friends on the Sunday night because they'd left the club early the night before.

1:05:08 Yeah. And he said that at about 8:30 PM, he was with Matt on the couch watching television. And then he and then Atkins fell asleep. Yeah. He woke at about 1:00 AM on the couch. On the Monday is he saying then? On the Monday morning and Matt wasn't home, so he described he he said, oh, I just assumed Matt had gone out to the Ark night club again. Yeah, without me. On the Monday night before I went to work on Tuesday. No, this is on the Sunday night. On a Sunday night? Yeah. OK, Yeah. Yeah. He, I mean, obviously he told so many lies during this first record of interview about denying going to Bunnings.

1:05:50 So the, but just before the police brought him in on the Thursday, they actually phoned him to say, we need to speak to you. He was at work. Well, sorry, he told the police he was at work at the time, 2 hours away. Yeah. And so he said to them, Yep, happy to come in, but I'm gonna have to, like, finish work. And then it'll be take me two hours to drive to the police station for an interview. By this stage, the police were already on to him. Yeah. And obviously he was already a suspect. He's he's the person closest to Matt.

1:06:19 He he should be a suspect. In any investigation, you always start with the people. Close. And when you can't rule them out, you know, quickly. Yep. Yes, absolutely. That's on top of that. Really. Yeah. So they had a surveillance car on him, so they knew he wasn't two hours away at work. He was actually in the next suburb across. Yeah. And what he did when he finished work was he went home. They had another unit waiting at home at his house. Yeah, his apartment. And so they intercepted him before he was able to go inside.

1:06:48 At this point, they've then taken him down to the police station and performed this first interview. So this is where that really frustrates me a lot in terms of that fact that he wasn't cautioned properly. Although there were reasons to suspect him. Yeah, this is it. There's reasons to suspect him from the get go. I can understand kind of going look, let's cautiously just do the witness to begin with. But the but we're but we're thinking more suspect in the back of your mind, in the back of your mind, you should have known that you were basically going to be recautioning him.

1:07:19 Yeah. But the fact they just pushed through that interview as if they've never been trained. Yeah, that that really, really freaking does my head in. Yeah, it's. It's a lot. Yeah, it's a lot, yeah. What else did he lie about? I mean, he was, he lied about driving Matt's car. He lied about. There were just so many things that he lied about that were then later able to be proved that he did. You know, there was a lot of CCTV footage of him doing things at this point. He refused to speak with the police after this because.

1:07:53 So this was at the point where they're like, we've got CCTV, CCTV footage of you at Bunnings. He refused to see that. He sort of stopped talking to the police around that time. Yeah. He exercised his right to silence, and he ended up getting himself a lawyer. Yeah. And at this point, he was actually. So what date was that? On the 19th of August he was charged with Matt's murder. In October of 2009, an 8 week trial by jury was held and he I guess how do we go through this? There was a lot of evidence given, a lot of witnesses.

1:08:33 The trial was incredibly complex. It was very demanding on the Leveson family. Yeah, most especially Mark. Yeah, Matt, Matt's dad, because he was one of the last people to give evidence, which meant he was unable to be in court. Faye, Jason and Peter were very early on in giving testimony. So they were actually, once they, once you give testimony, you can then sit in the court. Yeah, to watch the rest of the proceedings. So they were able to do that without the support of Mark. And he really felt that that was incredibly impactful to the family, something like last or third last.

1:09:09 Or something like crazy like that. They like the the, you know, the other family members were like within the first, you know, six or seven or something. And then Paul, Mark wasn't until like the 20 something, you know, giving evidence. So yeah, apparently that really, really separated them as a family because they couldn't communicate about what was happening in the court. And there was a lot happening in that. His lawyer, Atkins lawyer was pretty awful to Peter particularly. I'm calling Himalaya and Jason for that matter, when they got them on the stand and gave their evidence because Peter was giving evidence in terms of like seeing him at Woolies and and seeing him on the night of at ARC.

1:09:48 But also, Jason had an example of when, sorry, when Matt and Atkins, we're having an argument at a party, he saw prior to all of this occurring, sort of establishing that this was a pattern. And the lawyer just straight out was like, you're lying about that. You're just making that up now. And there was also where the police hadn't interviewed Peter early enough. They kept putting, he, Peter wanted to go to the police very early on and tell them this information and they kept putting him off. And so it wasn't his fault that the statement wasn't taken immediately.

1:10:21 It was taken like I think maybe a month even later. I think it was like 5 or 6 weeks. Yeah, it was something, Yeah, really, it was a long time. So that's poor. Policing, but on the stand then the the lawyers telling him that, Oh no, you made that story up at that point. You've got a because you had a month. You knew to think about it, Yeah, No, he wanted to tell it the day it happened like, but it, you know, it wasn't taken by the police and his. Story didn't change over that time at all. But there's no evidence of that in respect to the police's documentation of it 100%, which is where.

1:10:51 So they were using all that against them when it was poor policing was the issue. And so I can understand the family being absolutely so distraught by this not falling into place as it should have. Yeah. Everything was lined up for them to get a slam dunk, I think, if the police had done their job. Yeah. Because the other bit of evidence that had been overlooked, I think at this point even was on this, there was CC, there was, sorry, not CCT three, there was footage of the of Atkins place being searched, including the storage unit.

1:11:22 So there was the apartments and they all had a community like storage units at the bottom of where they, it's quite common that happens, you know, have a gate where there's cage where you have all your things in store, things outside of your apartment. And when they did a video of that, you could see inside that little unit was the subwoofer was in the in that, in that storage unit and that was never picked up by the police. It wasn't even documented as you can see it in the video, but it wasn't documented on the list of things that they had.

1:11:54 Had found. So it was basically like the thought process from like even the Leveson's and should have been the police's thought process was that the car was found without that in it. Now, everyone knows that he drove away from that nightclub that night with his normal music blaring out of that car, people. So you knew the subwoofer was in there on Saturday night. Yeah. Yet we get to Thursday when that car is being found dumped and the subwoof is not in there. Why? Yeah, maybe to fit a body in the boot.

1:12:22 Oh, you reckon? Maybe. Why else would you take that out other than to fit some fit something big in there because that took up so much of the boot. Like it's a permanent fixture sort of thing, a subwoofer, isn't it? It's not something you can easily take in and out of a car. And it was noted that that what when they searched the car, that when they found the receipt, they found wires. Well, what were those wires meant to be attached to? There was no connection by the police to make that thought process of like, hang on a second, what was meant to be here that these wires were attached to?

1:12:52 That isn't there now? Yes. Oh, it's that. Whoa, get angry. It's it's it's infuriating. Yeah, actually infuriating. During the trial, Atkins decided not to give evidence, which is absolutely his right. He exercised his right to silence. And after deliberations, the jury actually came back to the magistrate and said that they were unable to reach a finding, a unanimous finding. Yep. And so the judge said that OK, in that case I will allow a non unanimous finding. But it had to. So there were 12 jurors.

1:13:30 It had to be 11, had to have the same verdict. And so eventually they came and they after their deliberations and they came back, they'd reached a verdict of not guilty. Now I can almost in a way understand this because there was enough reasonable doubt, I think in the defence's case that they couldn't. They no one even to this day knows exactly what happened. So what the defence said was that Matt had actually staged his own disappearance because things were kind of getting a little bit too much and he wanted to leave the relationship.

1:14:11 They admitted to that. And so there was, even though there were no signs of life, as in, you know, his Medicare card hadn't been used. He hadn't accessed any of his money. He hadn't made contact with his family. There were no signs of life. But the jury still had no proof that he'd actually died or body that he hadn't done something to himself. And the prosecution did unfortunately, pull out some random sightings of Matt that that people had put forward, which as we know with these cases, you know, you put up a, you know, a call line for like these sorts of things that people do ring in and they do think they see these people because they want to help.

1:14:51 But unfortunately, when you don't know someone, you probably don't really know what they look like when you see them out in the wild from just a photo. So who knows how how accurate? Well, I mean, we know they weren't accurate sightings. They were of of map around the place. Yeah, too. So unfortunately, they did put forward prosecution enough reasonable doubt. Yeah, to be able to put that there. Yeah. So and as you and the cops didn't have their ducks in a row properly as they should have. So, yeah, the the possible sightings, they had 11 witnesses who testified to possible sightings.

1:15:25 Yeah, they also had Atkins give evidence before the actually, no, that's actually pertaining to the inquest. So yeah, at this point Atkins hadn't actually they they did put forward his record of record of interview as part of the evidence in the trial, but it didn't really say much and that it could only be used up until that point where he wasn't then cautioned again. So all of that stuff beforehand didn't really have any necessarily any sort of bearing on on the outcome there. Yeah. So unfortunately he will sort of walked.

1:16:10 Free. He acquitted, yeah. Now, around this time, Gary Drublin comes on the scene, Yes. And he had actually just come back from some extended leave from the police force. Now we know Gary Drublin. He's got his own podcast as well. Yes. And he was also the one of the lead investigators in the William Tyrrell case for a while. So he's, you know, very well, very. Well known, very seasoned, very investigator in this. But also like so prior to him, though, there had been so many changes as to who was leading this case that I think that's another issue again with this, that I get it, people move around in the police force.

1:16:49 I totally understand that. But I don't know, the Levesons have said this the entire time looking at this case. They were so concerned that all of a sudden this was going to become a cold case and get dropped and just left and nothing else was going to get done with it. Which I think they were so grateful for Gary to come along because he was like a dog with a bone and he wouldn't let it go. And that was what they needed, and they didn't have that prior to him. Apparently the first investigator they had, the first informant they had, police informant they had, she was amazing, she was incredible.

1:17:20 But then she got moved to a different station and so they got someone else who was less than incredible. And so that really stopped the investigation in its tracks. And you know, they would ring every month and try and get an update and there was never any updates. And so when it came to the point that Gary Jubal and took it on, nothing had been done for over a year for a long time. And what ended up happening was that I mean, thank goodness for Jubal and but it ended up going. Well, there was a coronial inquest yet that had already started prior to Gary carrying on board.

1:17:58 Well, it started prior to Atkins being charged, but had been suspended when he was charged. So I mean, obviously because you think, OK, we've, we've got someone here that we've now got enough evidence. We don't, we don't need the coronal inquest necessarily. They didn't like sort of just cancel it. They suspended it just to see what would come of that. So thankfully once in that, you know, well with him being acquitted, they did manage to have the inquest brought forward again. So this happened on it started on the 31st of October in 2016, Yeah.

1:18:29 So Matt went missing in 2007, Yeah. It's this is it. There's such a it's so much time. I mean this poor family this whole time. They don't know what's happened to Matt at all. Like, and if you're thinking that, OK, Atkins has been acquitted, not that I mean, we all think he did something and still to that, you know, in that terms of like that, but you know that. But he's got to, you've got to start thinking as a family and I and that, OK, if it's not Atkins, then what else happened here? And I you know that I mean, cops shouldn't be tunnel visioned on somebody, but you also need to make sure you do dot the IS and cross the TS of everyone that you do suspect.

1:19:09 And I don't feel that was done with Atkins before they even went to trial. So let alone now they're looking at OK, well, we kind of can't look at Atkins in that he's been acquitted. But to find out answers for the family, you need to look at him still, but also look broader in case there is more to this. It would be so heartbreaking for the family to be like back there if going now we know nothing again. I guess the benefit of going to a coronial inquest is that the coroner actually has different powers to that the coronial court has different powers to that of the the Criminal Court, I think.

1:19:45 That was the only way they could get answers in this. That's. Right. And so the coroner can compel somebody to test. Yeah. And they ended up having to do that with Atkins. So it's called. They they it was an induced statement. Well, prior to that even it was a Section 61 OK certificate which so the first part of this is that he was told that because he refused to give evidence. So the the coroner was able to yet do this Section 61, which compels him to give evidence. And so he's still in that and he was lying like when he was giving that evidence.

1:20:22 So he continued. He did give a lot more, but certainly not enough. Well, he, he said in, in one of them. I I think it was at this point, yeah, that he thought that Matt was alive and living in Thailand. Yeah, yeah. And they get that's one of the ones then when they they grabbed him on that and said it's the already the coroner already has, we've already agreed that's not what's happened. We all agree. He's dead. He's. Deceased and you know, now we're trying to find out where he is and what's happened.

1:20:48 So because he's perjured himself, they then were able to enact the induced statement situation. So that was where they basically said to him, OK, you've perjured yourself, you're going to jail. We we can prove that you've perjured. And I believe that the term for perjury, the maximum term is 10 years. Yeah, that would like that he wouldn't have gotten much and that this is where the family had to make really tough decisions around this because already with the with getting him to do the the other section 61 that gave him that he could give evidence and would not go to jail.

1:21:23 So basically and he said that that's that stand and he'd already been acquitted anyway, but basically he could say anything on that stand and he wouldn't go to jail for it. But he didn't do that, he lied. So because he's perjuring himself, they went back to him again and were able to say to him, right, you've perjured yourself, you are going to do jail time now. So if you don't want to do that jail time, your best option now is to give us where the body is. So if they he could give them and literally they had to find the body for this to be, you know, enacted in full that then with that, if he gave an induced statement for that, this is outside of the coronial inquest.

1:22:02 Really this is separate to that. If you could would give us an induced statement and tell us where to find the body and we find the body, you will not be done for perjury. So it gave him immunity to that. Still kind of two stages to it, but so that one, that's what was so shit. The family thought that they'd already given away all they had in the first one and still didn't get what they wanted. Like, you know, in that they just want to Matt. They want to know what happened to him, where he is. And as I said, put him, put, you know, him somewhere, bury him, give him the respect he deserves for them to be able to, you know, have that.

1:22:35 And this asshole still wouldn't give it to them on the stand. Even though there were zero consequences. Yeah. Admitting when I say 0 consequences, 0 legal consequences. Yeah. As in he wasn't going to go to prison for this. He just had to say what happened. Yeah. And where Matt's body was, Yes. So in this induced statement, he says that basically his story then changes to the fact that Matt overdosed, he died at home, and he worried. He was worried that something bad would happen to him, that to Atkins.

1:23:05 He was worried that his mum would find out that he was. Gay, that's what he says. Yeah. And that people would think that well or no, that he was, he was drug dealing. Yeah. That was his that were his two concerns. Yeah. With finding his dead person he really loved bullshit lover dead from a drug overdose is what he's what he claims to have occurred. Yeah. Gary Dublin believes that story. I know, I know. Do you? No, I don't. I don't. I don't. I don't even for a minute. And this is like, so Mark and Faye, they say they've got so much respect for Gary that they respect his opinion.

1:23:42 They respect that that's what he thinks. But they actually can't believe that that's what he thinks. Yeah, because. I mean, like his, his reason for believing it is that he he thinks that no one would be stupid enough to come up with that and use that as an excuse. But I'm kind of like, I think. That's it, I think. I think that's no. Because at the end of the day, hey, in the scenario of, you know, your lover has gone missing, it was always going to make a bit of a headline somewhere, wasn't it?

1:24:12 That you know that you're attached to this story of a person going missing, you're the last person who saw them alive or around, whether they are dead or are alive missing. So what's the difference like in terms of like that? Story yeah, it doesn't add up. It doesn't add up. It doesn't add no at all. At all, no. So basically then it's now up to Atkins to say where he's buried the body. Yeah. And so he takes them to the Royal National Park. And this is like a massive it's not the park, it's a national.

1:24:47 Park a National Park. Huge. Huge. Yeah. And what he says to the police is that he thinks he carried Matt's body about 70 meters off a particular track. So they drive around for ages looking for whatever it is he thinks he finds where it is. And. We should say, like prior to all of this, well prior to this, Matt's family believed that that's where he'd been taken from other aspects of this. Story. Well, you know how they figured this. So. Mark being an analytical mind, yeah, when they found Matt's car, Yep, they were able to look at his credit card and see when or bank card, bank statements, see when he'd last filled up with petrol.

1:25:30 Right. He then worked out how far the car could have driven. Wow, being an accountant, he knows. Yep. He knows his numbers. And so they drew a radius around where they found the car and however many kilometres he thought that could have carved in there and back, Right, Right. And then they were like, Oh well, the Royal National Park makes up a big chunk of that radius. And that's somewhere that you could would go to bury a body. So that's how they thought that that's probably where Matt was. Buried.

1:25:57 They used to go out there and dig. Every weekend. And look for him every week. My heart. For 10. Can you imagine this? The brothers would go, Mum and Dad would go and they would look for him. That's. God, I know. Oh, I know, this piece of shit knew all this the whole time. Could have given, could have told. Him that, given him that, Yep, 10 years. He held onto it. Yep, fucker. Fucking piece of shit. Yeah. So it comes now that they're trying to find Matt's body. And, you know, he says it's about 70 meters down this track.

1:26:37 And the police, like, really? Because Matt Wade, you know, wasn't. Big, but he wasn't still big. But he weighed like 75 or 80 kilos, Yeah. Are you sure you were able to carry a body or carry a body that So they actually got him a weight that was the. Mannequin. They got a mannequin of that and weight that light that weight. And he was like, Oh no, there's no way I could have done. He realized no. Yeah. So he's like, it probably was about this fast. So they've then cordoned off this area. They've brought in all of the police excavators, like I'm talking heavy machinery because this is dense bushland.

1:27:08 Yeah, that at this point had been been dead for 10 years. So you've been there for 10 years. And anyway, they're looking, I think they had three weeks left to the end of the time. So they're looking every day, seven days a week, massive amounts of police resources out there. And obviously they're looking, looking, looking. It comes to the final hour of the final day and an excavator accidentally backs up and knocks over a sago palm. And with that they're like, Oh well, it's been sort of knocked over now let's go and have a look.

1:27:45 And they found, AI think they found a hip bone. And they're like, oh, my God. And anyway, they ended up up excavating the site, and there was a full, full skeletal remains of an adult male, which was then later on tested and found to be that of Matthew Leveson. Yeah.

1:28:09 I can't even imagine how that must have felt for Mark, Faye, Peter and Jason, and the extended family and friends of Matt's. But for Mark and Faye, this was what they wanted. They wanted Matt's remains. They wanted to be able to lay him to rest and to give him the send off that he deserved in the lead up to his death. It was leading up to his 21st birthday, and Faye was saying that, you know, before he'd met Atkins, she knows he would have had a cocktail party. He would have had music and fun and it would have been amazing.

1:28:48 But, you know, he would. He'd been with Atkins at this point long enough that he kind of really dulled himself down a lot. And Atkins was like, oh, we'll just have a barbecue in the backyard with a keg for his 21st. And he was like, he was like, Matt didn't even drink beer. Like, what the fuck? You know it was it was, you know that the end of his life was so burdened by Atkins actions that he just. Did you say it wasn't dulled him down? And that's not who he was and that's. You know, that's described by so many people.

1:29:22 You see photos of him and you think, oh absolutely, he was this he. Would have been so much fun. He would have been so. Much fun. He was kind. And he was a really attractive young man. He was. You could tell he was the laugh at the party had that, like, the biggest smile, you know, hair exactly, you know, perfectly coiffed or, you know, Yeah. You know, you could see that a lot of time had gone into making it look the way it looks. Well maintained. Yeah. Yeah. And Atkins robbed him of all of that, of everything.

1:29:50 And. And what what is, in the end, his skeletal remains found in a National Park? Just it's just not what he deserved at all. No, no. Not at all. So Faye and Mark and the boys did hold a funeral format, a memorial format, and it was incredibly well attended. Yeah. And, you know, so many people spoke so highly of him. And I've got some quotes that I can I can talk to about that. Sorry. It wasn't a sego palm. It was a cabbage palm that his body was found. Under I wouldn't know the difference. No, you wouldn't.

1:30:29 So one of his friends, Rachel Sanky, said that he had the most amazing, huge and contagious smile. When he smiled, it would just light up the room and you couldn't help but smile too. His personality just captured the entire room. When I think about Maddie, the first thing that comes to mind is laughter and feeling happy and all of the wonderful times we had together. And what I think is absolutely lovely is that the community really rallied around Faye and Mark at this time. And lots of people donated their time to redo their garden, and they brought that cabbage palm home and planted it at home.

1:31:08 You know, Face and Mark both say that that cabbage palm was nourished by Matt's body and by his remains and belongs. So it belongs to them and it belongs to him. And it really is a source of comfort to them having that at home. So yeah, that's. I didn't read it anywhere because they did speak about in a lot of things that I talked about that I read that they've got a lot of tattoos, even like so Mark and Faye, including the the the brothers, but, and one of them in particular I'm going to talk about.

1:31:39 But did they end up getting a palm tree tattoo? I believe, I think so. I believe so. It's another one of Mark's tattoos that I think sums up this case, unfortunately. An 100%. Hits me hard. Yeah, he has had this tattooed on himself and he made sure that police officers saw this. It's on his arms on that reason. So he can, you know, pull it out and show people because and make sure people see it without really, you know, putting it glaringly obviously in people's faces. And it reads, it's not a justice system, it is just a system because this family didn't get the justice they deserved and Matt didn't get the justice he deserved.

1:32:14 Atkins walks the streets and continues to do exactly what he's done in the past, and that is prey on young men. Two weeks after Matt went missing, we now know he was already deceased. But two weeks after he went missing, he was already in a relationship with another 17 year old boy a week. The the following Sunday, Yeah, he was at an event with a young man of like the age of 17 as well. Yeah. In particular. Oh, God, What's it called? There's a a big event. I've got it coming. What was called now hold on, it was.

1:32:46 Called the Sleazeball. Sleazeball event. That's right. So it was a fundraising event for the Mardi Gras. Yeah. I think actually Matt had bought the tickets to that and Atkins still went because and then and when Faye asked him about it, he's like, Oh well, I just wanted to see if Matt would show up. You have the tickets, you fuck. With and you took some 17, some other 17 year old. Yeah, like he's an absolute disgusting piece. Of way. So Atkins had been having an affair pretty much throughout his entire relationship with Matthew.

1:33:14 Yeah, with an 18 year old man and several other people were flings during that time. The other thing that Atkins pressured Matt into was having threesomes. This was something that Matt wasn't interested in at all, but I guess he felt, so, I don't know, controlled by Atkins or that he was going. To lose Atkins if he didn't. Do this and Atkins would actually make Matt go out and find boys and men of his age bring them back to the. It's even. Worse, man, it's it's so awful. It's so awful. And I can't even imagine.

1:33:54 Matt didn't want that. No, he didn't want any of that. That's awful. He just wanted a partner who loved him for who he was and wanted to be with him and treated him well. Yeah. And he didn't get that. No. And that is not OK. I mean, Atkins has moved to like, Queensland now. He's not far out of Brisbane in another spot where it is, you know, party central kind of thing. Yeah. He's basically in like the new, like the gay part of Queensland like. Yeah, yeah. And so praying on young boys, young boys again.

1:34:24 And like he's now, you know, got a fair bit older again and still doing this. I mean, it's just awful. I do not buy that Matt Matt overdosed and died and he just disposed of the body. I 100% believe that there was more to that. I think you. Know whether it was we've pushed him and. I think, I think it was more intentful than that. But the reason I say this is because we've spoken about this on the podcast before, that the most dangerous time to leave a coercive relationship, sorry, The most dangerous time in a relationship, in a coercive relationship is when you leave.

1:35:02 And I think Matt was at the point of leaving. Like, he'd spoken about plans to move overseas for a while. He'd spoken about trying to get out. He was non verbally telling his mum and dad he'd had enough to buy these, like, extra lingering hugs and really saying to them, I love you so much. Like, really holding on to those relationships that meant so much to him. Yeah, and this is what happened. So I think that Atkins murdered Matt and disposed of his body in a shallow grey for fuck's sake as well.

1:35:39 Like it's just horrible. There's, I mean, there's no respect in any of this from Atkins of Matt when he was alive or when he was. Dead. And yeah, I, I, I guess I, I, I don't think Matt was in a state that would have led to his death that night either. I believe Peter Peter knew Matt more than anyone. Absolutely. If, if he says that Matt wasn't, you know, completely out of it. I believe that. I same, I think his brother knew him better than anyone. And I guess if Matt had overdosed, who, who gave him that?

1:36:18 So what Atkins says is that they went home and Matt put a whole, like, free pour of GHB into a glass and took it. That's what he says happened. Yeah, we won't. We can't. Nothing of that can be proven because there's no tissue left. GHB is also something that's naturally produced in the body. So unless you'd had a massive, massive overdose of it, it would have been probably quite hard to detect days and days later even if his body had been found. Earlier anyway, right? So I don't know. It's it's just, it's all too convenient.

1:36:52 I cannot believe that that man is walking the streets. No, I can't. Believe it. And I I do blame the police for that Yeah. It's their failings that have led to that. I think if this was done correctly from the get go, Atkins was of clear standout suspect. And if he'd been treated as such and the cops had actually been and I I OK I'm gonna go there. I I hope I'm wrong, but I honestly feel like there was a bit of homophobia in this from the Police Department in terms of the way they treated this. I don't think they took it as seriously as it should have been because of it being a young gay man.

1:37:30 I agree. I think the timing in terms of being 2007, I think that that wouldn't happen now and I buddy hope not, no, but I do think that that was part of this. I think they did sort of go, Oh no, we're just not going to deal with that as well as we would have otherwise if this was, you know, heterosexual sexual relationship as we said about the male female, you know, being that the age. Gang, like you look at Matt, right? He's a young blonde, really stunning man. If that was a young, blonde, really stunning woman.

1:38:01 With a 45 year old man, this case would have been front and centre and it would have been all all resources pumped into it. And it wasn't and I want to call that out. I think it's absolutely disgusting of their on their behalf and it just, it needed to be dealt with so much, so much better. And I feel for the Leveson family so much. For me too, they, as we said at the start of this episode, they're incredible people. They're incredible advocates. They don't want Matt's life to be forgotten and they don't want anyone else to have to suffer this fate.

1:38:35 So they are still out in the media. They still tell Matt's story to this day. They assisted in a book that was written about the case. They've been involved in numerous podcasts and television appearances. And they will not let Matt's legacy die. And I, I really applaud them for that because that would be really hard. Yeah, they're doing it anyway. No, I wrote down here on my notes because my brain's not working such a right notes, I'm going to read it. I wrote down, I said the majority of the 10 year delay came from early investigative gaps, lack of follow up and failure leverage available evidence.

1:39:15 And I just think that that is what occurred here and it's wrong. It's wrong. And yeah, I don't know, there's no way of compensating the family for that now, but the best way, that the only way to compensate it in any remote way is to make change and do better. Yep. And I really hope that that's what's. Gonna happen from here on now they've learnt like as in the police force, The investigators have learnt from this, Yeah. And yeah, nobody will be found in a situation like this again, no. Way awful.

1:39:44 That's horrible. A podcast, I mean I don't know if you listen to was that long form one Matty, which is really good. If anyone wants to listen to real high level detail of this case, that's a really good podcast to check. Out. Yeah, yeah, it's fantastic. Really well done. It's a Case file Presents podcast, so it's very well produced. Yeah. And it was it's hosted by Rachel now, what's her name? God, She's the she is the founder of MPAN, so the Missing Persons Advocacy Network. And she, her brother Dan, went missing and was a missing person.

1:40:22 And she is an absolute advocate in this space. She talks a lot about ambiguous loss and how difficult that is for families and just how hard it is to be the family of a missing person because it's a it's a very particular type of loss. Absolutely. And it's something that there wasn't really support for, especially when her brother went missing, which is what what prompted her to find and Pan. Yeah. So if that's something situation that hopefully nobody ever finds themselves in, but. Fortunately, many people do.

1:40:51 It's, that's right. And people go missing for so many different reasons. It's not just cases like this which are the ultimate tragedy, but people go missing for lots of different reasons. And it doesn't necessarily mean they're deceased. You know it's not illegal to go missing. And at the start of her podcast, I, I really resonated with it because I've lost my child once. And she said, like, imagine, you know, that feeling every mother has been through that like, you know, and, and, and father, for that matter, you know, that you lose, you lose your kid for a split second, you know, and oh God, they're gone for five, you know, a few minutes, you know, imagine that for an hour.

1:41:24 Imagine that for a week and imagine that then for 10 years, feeling like that, not knowing where your child is, like it's just sickening, Absolutely sickening. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I couldn't, I don't know how they keep going and they, but they did to the point of in the coronial inquest. I found it was really fascinating that and so much pressure on that family that they was told, you know, you should get your own lawyer for the coronal inquest. And the, the, the family, they were like, we can't afford to pay someone 1012 grand a day to be here and it's lawyers are kind of expensive.

1:41:59 What did Mark do? He went and got a bit of advice from league, from Legal Aid, which they weren't eligible for, but he got some advice there and he stood up and did that case on his own as their as their legal representation. Holy. Shit. Oh, he's such an impressive man. To the point where someone said to Faye, geez, you're lucky that your husband's a lawyer. Embarrassed and she. Laughed. He's an accountant. But he like, you know, he really educated himself and he was. Read the ACT. He did all this stuff like did the reading and got, you know, enough knowledge to get himself through it.

1:42:35 See, this is another failing in our system, that they are victims. And they've had to do that. Upon them to pay for their own lawyer that. Should not happen. That shouldn't happen in these situations, especially when you get to the end of this and this is the outcome where that asshole was able to pinpoint where he's that body was. So he clearly did it and he's admitted to it because he said he found the body or even what he admitted to, which I don't think it's true. Yeah, he's admitted enough to know that that's what happened.

1:43:04 He he's responsible. Yeah. Yet they would have had to have forked out God. How? No, because it went on for months. Yeah, it was. It was 8 weeks, two months it went on for. So I mean how much money that would have cost them if they had gone with paying a lawyer? You'd be bankrupt and that poor family. Then yet another hit on them. Oh, it's just disgusting. The system is so wrong. It's just a system. It is just a system and it's a broken fucking system. Absolutely. It's we've got to do better than.

1:43:34 We've got to do better. Yeah. Like, you know, you think all of this money that seized during crime, like, why can't that be used for families like the Leveson? Exactly. Or I don't know that there has to be a better way. Speaking of money as well. This is the other thing that Mark sort of and this is one of the legacies that he still pushing to this day is reward money for missing people. Yeah. And or for for information that leads to the finding of a body or the whatever. Yeah. He was saying when Matt first went missing, they offered $10,000.

1:44:07 They had to fight to make it a $100,000 and then he's like, it should just be blanket $1 million. Yep. And he said it almost never gets paid out. It never. Gets paid out. But it gives the publicity to the case. Yeah. If there's $1,000,000 around it, you might get 10 bits of information from 10 cases that add up to something. Or you might shake, you know, especially 10 years later, you might shake someone out of a tree that, you know, wouldn't have said something that time, but does say if there's a no one's doing anything for $10,000, no, that's a fucking kick in the teeth.

1:44:41 That's not. No, no. So that's another one of the legacies that Mark's trying to push forward is that, you know, a standard missing person reward is $1,000,000. Yeah, well, pick because a person's loved 1 is worth more than 10 grand. That's just. That's it's awful, gross, Yeah. Oh, wow. All right. Thank you. You did an awesome job. Today you did an awesome job. You're amazing. You are absolutely amazing. All right, stick with us for next week. We actually haven't even decided which case we're covering yet.

1:45:13 We'll get on to that and keep an eye on the socials. We really look forward to bringing you another episode next week. Absolutely love doing this. This is great thank you everyone and we forgot. Stay curious, crying besties. Bye.