Episode 68 - Nicola Gobbo: The Lawyer X Scandal

0:15 Welcome to Crime Besties to another episode. We just were saying it's episode 68. Yeah, which is a bit of a lonely number. The number 68, the moment, yeah, I mean. Should we say it? God last week trying to do the the edit and everything for this and typing out the night episode number was like literally ringing in my ears 670. For God's sake, fuck but. And then next week's obviously 69. Which we have to giggle over. Yeah, so poor old episode 68, but here we are. We've got to get through it. So So there you go.

0:54 We'll. Give you some respect 68, yeah. Yeah, we're throwing a good one at you. Yeah, for sure. It's a nice meaty one for you. Absolutely. Last night we went to a true crime event. We did. We did. We went to, we saw Andrew Rule and John Sylvester speak. Yeah, they were good. They were really good. John Sylvester tells a very funny story. He's great. He's got such a dry sense of humour. He's very, very funny. Yeah. And Andrew Rules, Andrew Rule, like, you know, he's, he's fantastic too. But yeah, they were selling their books at the last night and my mom's like, oh, I want to go up and buy a book.

1:33 And I was like, well, I'll come up and take a photo of you with them because she's she's such a fan girl. She's freaking hilarious. Anyway, so we go up there, she goes up board, Andrew rules new book life and crimes, same as his same name as his podcast and gets behind there for a photo and she goes, did you know my daughter? She does a podcast. I'm like, oh for fuck's sake. He does not give a shit about it. Oh, it was so embarrassing. I'm like. Oh, Lynn, we loved it. I like. It like they give a crap about that.

2:05 I loved it, though at the end, one of the audience members would have put in questions and said, you know, have you ever had anyone that, you know, in the audience, like, from your stories that you tell? And I was like, yeah, sitting right here. Ron Iddles Emma's dad, who's literally spitting image of raw needles. Even though he he's like, Oh no, I don't see. It don't see it. Oh, come on. He really The only difference is raw Needles has blue eyes and Dad has brown eyes. You can't tell. You can't even tell.

2:30 Yeah, exactly. Like literally could be twins. I know. All only has to be 10% true, Russell. That's right.

2:38 It's more than 10% true, Dad, trust us, trust us. But last night Mum and Dad shouted us the tickets to this. Is that as their unofficial patriot? So I think we probably should shout them out. I don't know. So Lynn and Russ, thank you very much for shouting every tickets. That was lovely. We had a lovely night school night though. Oh yeah, we need to be home at reasonable hour. At least it didn't go too too. Late. No, it was pretty good actually. Yeah. So that was all right. But yeah, it was very interesting.

3:05 They talked a bit about the mushroom case, which I found, you know, there were a couple of things that, you know, he sort of touched on that I was like, oh, yeah, that's right. It sort of already had kind of escaped my mind a little bit. Yeah. And then obviously, you know, at the minute, I think he's, he said they were going to court today. The appellate court was it. Today for today for that one, because yeah, there was another one that's today, which is the the missing campers. Oh, that's that's.

3:28 What I'm yeah, Greg Lynn and so his appeal is being court today. Well, it's not being the appeal itself isn't being heard. I think it's just basically they're hearing the as in like will they listen to the appeal? Sure. It's basically this way this. Like it's just dimension or hearing. Steps in this so yeah, it's basically there's the decision as to whether or not the appeal is upstanding enough to warrant a full hearing Yeah OK. So it'll be interesting to see what comes of that because oh God, you and I spoke.

3:54 About it, yeah, we've spoken about it. I mean, obviously we've done the done the case on it too, if you guys wanna go back and have a listen to that if you haven't already and. Unfortunately, John Sylvester kind of agreed with our take on things. I was hoping to hear something from him last night to kind of. So he knows something more and it'll be fine. But I think we said it in the episode and like obviously he was. Greg Lin was convicted of 1 murder and and sort of not of the other. Got away with one, will he get away with another?

4:20 Yeah, even though as like even John's first, it was like he's guilty as all hell. Yeah, but he told some a story about it, somebody he knew who had known him 20 odd years ago. And you know, there was some very questionable. All the behaviour. Behaviour very, very odd. So, you know, oh God, it would worry me if he were back out in society. Absolutely, totally. And and The thing is I don't think, I honestly don't think anyone questions that he did it. It's just basically now legal jargon as to whether or not you can convict him on it.

4:53 And that's what's so frustrating about it. Yeah. And. Actually, the other thing they told us is that Greg Lynn's lawyer. Who? Desmond. Dermot Dunn. Dermot Dunn, thank you. Why did I? What was AD name? He is obviously Greg Lynn's lawyer and he's amazing. But yeah, Aaron Patterson has just hired him for her appeal process. She's fired her attorneys. Yeah, her barristers, and she's now hired him. And he is. As Andrew Rule said yesterday, if you get done for murder, he's the one you want in your corner.

5:23 Yeah, So. And they're like, yeah, he's, he's sort of Supreme Court Justice material. Like, he's amazing. Yes. Knows the law inside out and back to front and how to work it I guess. Both ways work it in his favour of like defending. And and he's doing it within the confines. Of the law, this is it, yeah. And we'll get into a bit of that today, I guess, too, with the case we're doing today. 100%, yeah. I mean, the legal system isn't perfect in that way that there are ways of like someone who is guilty.

5:49 Yeah. Getting if If things aren't done in a neat, tidy bow, there are ways that the legal system can be rotted. You know, like so. It's it's terrifying, actually. Yeah, Yeah. You know, when you think, OK, it's done and dusted and OK, maybe he because he didn't get convicted of the two, Fine. At least he's in prison. Yes, You know, at least he's not in, out in society. What label is on that? Who? That doesn't kind of matter as long as he's in there, yeah. That's it. Yeah, See it. We'll watch this space and see what comes of comes of the hearing today.

6:18 Yeah, just sort of on a bit of a different tack. I don't think you and I've even really discussed this face to face. Yeah, we hit 200,000 downloads this week. We did so. Go us. I remember the start of the year, we were like, imagine, like. I reckon we'll hit 100,000. I remember us both sort of going, Oh my gosh, we could make 50. And then I think it was Peter went, no, we work it out mathematically. Yeah. You know, 100,000 we could get to this, you know, this year, yeah. And oh, OK, we doubled that.

6:46 Even it's October and we hit over over 200,000 now. So yeah, each and every single one of you who has listened to an episode, downloaded an episode, liked, commented and everything. Thank you. We we actually this is this blows my mind. It completely does. And when I see the the amount of episodes that people are listening to each week, I'm like blown I've. Been hit away 10,000 a week yeah it's insane I just I think God that's scary it's. Scary. It's scary, but.

7:14 People are clearly liking it. I mean, there's the odd person that doesn't, which we were talking about last. Night. Oh my God, what was the what was the comment that person made? Well, I pity the person who finds this. That's right.

7:29 I'm loving. I pity the person. Yeah. So sorry, everyone. OK, that's good for you. But just move on. Move on. Why do you need? Why do you feel the need to come in? It was a very lengthy bash. Yeah, it was a really long comment. Oh, wow. Yeah. But it was surrounded by really lovely ones, so I feel like. Above it was like my favorite podcast and below it was like, yes, this is the this one in the middle. Like pity the person. Oh, I love it. Interesting. Oh, I love it. It's so funny. Yeah. You know, any publicity is good publicity.

8:01 We're literally. Helping us by commenting and rating us reviewing it even for. This bad? Exactly. A few more shout outs that I've got today. We have a new Patreon this week named Alessia E, obviously unofficially Lynn and Russ. And then we had a really lovely Instagram DM from a man by the name of Tom Mcinnis. And and then I also wanted to shout out last night, we're standing in the queue waiting to go into the event. And my dad tells me that ages ago, like months ago, I think he was at one of his friend's daughter's houses.

8:34 I think dad was working there. Maybe her name is Ricky. And he's like, Oh yeah, she was listening to you. And I told they were talking about podcasts or something. And he said, Oh, my daughter's got a podcast and he said what it is. And she's like, oh, I listened to that already. So thank you, Ricky. Amazing, I love that. I hope Dad did a good job at your place. Don't hold it against it. And then the other thing is today is Halloween. We are recording on the 31st of October. What are your kids dressing up as?

9:04 Look, it's not my job. This what, this year they're yeah. So I'm handballing that one off to their dad for this weekend. So I don't know. I. Good luck. So, yeah, exactly. My so Oliver is dressing up as Peter Griffin from Family Guy, even though he has never seen a Family Guy episode ever. But I think this for Peter Griffin, you can get that character on Fortnite. Oh, OK. And so it's just So what is it's actually brilliant what he's doing. He's wearing his school shorts because he'll never wear pants.

9:35 Fine, whatever. An oversized white short sleeve shirt and he's going to put a pillow up it because he's got a big tum, right? As in Peter Griffin's got a big tum. He's Harry Potter glasses. Yep. Brown sneakers in a brown belt. I'm like, this is just brilliant. He's come up with this all on his. Own just done it all on his own because yeah, I didn't have to. I didn't have to do anything, thankfully. And what's Lee? Keep going as I'll give you one guess. Do you need a hint? Yeah. My little soda pop.

10:05 ABS, Abby. He's going as Abby and all I needed to source for that costume was a yellow beanie. And a really tight, tight shirt. Well, you know what? I've got a size 7 Hawaiian shirt in the wardrobe. The. Hawaiian The. Hawaiian shirt. Oh, our boys have matching Hawaiian shirts from back in a few years ago. And I I don't know why, but I hadn't gotten rid of it and it does just fit him. Someone loves it. Perfection. Oh, he's gonna shut him down. Popping out of the ball. I. Mean he's not stupid. I love that.

10:35 But then I was talking to one of the teachers at school this morning and he goes, oh God, this weather. It's going to be on and off like this all day and I'm just hoping for torrential rain about 5:00 PM that makes trick or treating impossible. Non starter, yeah. Yeah, and he's like, won't they just want to do it tomorrow? I'm like, well, too late, it's over tomorrow. So nice. My boys sort of said that to me as well. But you know, if we can't do it Friday night, like we'll just do it like when we come back to you on Monday and I'm like, no, no, no.

11:07 People would have what they. I literally put my decorations up yesterday. I've just got a few things at the door. Yeah. And I will be taking them down tomorrow morning. Yeah, like that's it. It's done. That's it. I mean. We're not. You can't. Sort of don't know extend it. No, it is a bit like isn't like it's like Christmas, it's like one day. Yeah, it's a. Day. Well, Christmas bloody goes for months. Oh yeah, but like. But I know what you. Mean it is only comes once. That's true. Yeah, it's a day.

11:32 Yeah, a single day. Oh gosh. Oh anyway, and also I'm really happy for them not to have all those lollies and have all those lollies in the house, although I do like taking my mum tax. And what a real tax. Well, yeah, and I've got to take like the good stuff, like a a mini Snickers. Oh. Yeah, interesting. Love a mini. I freaking love a Snickers. You know what I've been loving lately, actually? And I'm not really a chocolate fan. Like, I would prefer an ice cream. Yeah. Like a strawberries and cream lolly.

12:02 Yeah. You know, like the Ellen's only Ellen's only, not the bullshit. Anything else, it has to be Ellen's Fresh soft strawberries and cream. Yep. Yep. Not a massive chocolate fan, but then I bought Cadbury breakaway chocolate recently. Oh my God. I'll give you some. I'll give you some when we finish recording. What's what's in that? OK, Think Kit Kat. Yeah, but with Cadbury chocolate. Oh, because I love I like a Kit Kat. Me too, love a Kit Kat. This is like extra level, although it's called breakaway and it's really difficult to actually break away, but so up here, up here, well.

12:39 That'll really shit me because there's nothing worse like with a Kit Kat than people who eat them the wrong way. Oh, I know you know who eats them the wrong way. Oliver Wood A. 100%, yes, yeah. Do that. Just don't annoy them. Just. Exactly. He bites them. I know, I know. He doesn't snap them. Snap. Them and then you've got to chew the end and then the other end, and then you chew around this. Yes, no, no. He just eats it like it's a sandwich, you know what I mean? Like. Just that's so wrong. Yeah, as my niece would say.

13:09 I'm gonna say my daughter, which same diff. That is a psychopath. Yeah, yeah, it's very odd. It's very odd behavior. Yeah, it's concerning.

13:21 Yeah. So where did that come from? Oh yeah, come Halloween lollies, yes, happy to take my mum tax of what I want out of there. But then like some of this shit they get. Like, oh, some of it's like full, I don't know, I didn't know what it is and I don't want to know. Like it's I'm not into sweet. I don't get lollies. Yeah, you're not a lolly person. No. Do you remember we went last year And OK, my my thought has always been that if you're giving a Halloween lolly, it needs to be individually wrapped.

13:48 Only individually wrapped. How many times last year did we come across lollies that weren't wraps? Feel like I might have blocked that entire event out and I don't remember. And yeah. For real good reason. Yeah. The chaos of it. Yeah. It was just. It's. It's actually chaos does not even begin. No, does not even begin. Yeah. But there was stuff that was unwrapped. So I feel like you surely need to go over if. Oh, 100%. I'm pretty sure I said that to the boys this morning. I'm like, but don't eat anything until I've approved it.

14:19 You just never know. I know it's sad, but you just never know. You can't be too careful. Just germs in general, like people putting their hands in a bucket of always and handing it to you. I just not a bit. I've got a germaphobe, but that kind of gets me, gives me a bit of the year class definitely. The other thing is, I was reading some stats during the week about apparently 30% of men and 18% of women don't wash their hands after going to the toilet. That does actually doesn't surprise me when I live with boys like yeah.

14:44 Lucas can't stand it. He tells Brody off all the time. I love this. Please, Lucas. And now Brody's actually started coming home with like and so on, so he didn't wash their hands in the bathroom. Oh yeah, because Lucas would be all over it. Thank you.

15:00 Actually in the toilet at work the other day and like I could hear that the person in the store next to me left and didn't wash their hands. I was like a workplace. That is disgusting. It's gross. That's. So yuck. I don't know who it was. I mean, you're not a workplace I. Know I work in healthcare like it's. Yeah, Christ. Oh, Nah, Nah. I love that one of the girls at school, those pinned your son entirely of like, I bet his bedroom's neat and tidy. Oh, this was. So funny. So I was doing parent helper this week and this gorgeous.

15:28 I was doing reading with this gorgeous girl and we were reading a book about this naughty boy. And he did lots of naughty things and, like, it all turned around in the end and it was all fine. But his mum had told him, like, you know, he'd trashed his room for some reason. His mum was like, you know, you need to go and clean up your room. And she goes, so she's reading this and she looks at me and she's like, Lucas has a neat room. Does. No, she goes, does Lucas have a neat room? I'm like, yeah, he's pretty neat and tidy, actually.

15:54 And she's like, I knew Lucas had have a neat room. He just. And then comes across that, yeah. And then the kid had done something else and she goes, I know Lucas would never do that. I was so gorgeous. I love. It. Perfect. Yeah, Yeah. Well, in her eyes, anyway. Oh, you should see him when he's on fire, dude. But you know, we all have. That because we still say neat and tidy. Yeah, yeah, that's right. Or. Throw the tantrum and throw the toys, but he will pack them up afterwards. 100%, that is actually exactly.

16:24 He can't stand it. I love it. Yeah. All right. Should we get into today's case? Because we don't want to be accused of drivel or of boring people to death before we actually get into the crime. So today we're talking about none other than Lawyer X, Nicola Gobbo. This case has fascinated me for so many years it's insane. I still remember, Yeah, reading stuff about this before we knew that Lawyer X was Nicola Gobbo. Yes, yeah. And like this is what I kind of, I mean, in all of that. And I I think when we get into this, there's so many people who knew it was her in who were in this before it was named.

17:02 She was named Yeah, like that. I'm amazed it didn't come out sooner anyway, but it's insane. What this, what all this, what? How this ball went down? Yeah. I mean, there were suppression orders sort of limiting. Her journalistically, yeah, that, I mean. Even. Do you mean just in the ether? Just like, yeah, infiltrating around. I mean, I guess I'm just not that close to Mick Gatto to know, like get that Intel, but surprisingly. Enough. Yeah, Tony Mokbel isn't over for dinner every Wednesday night.

17:30 Well, but yeah, look and but honestly how she's survived, I am blown. Away. Oh, this is it. I'm so surprised she's alive. Yeah, but then that's what I think at the end of the day, this I kind of question a lot of this like, like who's giving the full story here? I don't. And this is, you know, you, we've been obviously heavily researching this this last week. And I think you're right. There is, there's truth in there somewhere. There's embellishments in there everywhere. And everyone's probably got an element of truth to their story, but we don't know what element of their story is the truth.

18:07 And it's a jumbled mess. But I feel like, you know, yeah, it's, it's just a crazy, crazy story. And what makes it like that so crazy is because we're talking about today like, you know, the Melbourne underworld of, like, the 90s, early 2000s, which was an insane time in organized crime in this state. Yeah. And The thing is with people that were involved in this, they love to embellish a story and make themselves look big and look bad and look amazed. Look, you know, tough, worse than someone else.

18:38 Yeah. But at the same time, they don't want people knowing what they did. And so it's like this, it's this real juxtaposition of like trying to work out like, what is truth in all of that? Of like, what are they embellishing on and what are they hiding and why? What's and why? What's the difference between the two of that? Why is it OK to say, Oh yeah, I would have, I murdered that bloke and I did that to that person. I've done that before. But you know, the, the true stuff then is the stuff they don't talk about.

19:00 So I think. They're sort of happy to be like, OK, yeah, I murdered Joe Bloggs. So many people. So people, because then if they were then charged for it, it couldn't be proven because they didn't actually do it. Maybe I don't, I don't know. I don't know what it is and what the motivation is at times or who, and it can be who they're talking to or you know. So yeah, there's so much of of fact that's lost, I think, in all of that as well. So yes. Oh, it's how to find the find it all in there is quite, quite insane.

19:28 Yeah, and I mean though they alltel a different story and I think that the part of that is to make sure that no one finds out the truth. Yeah, there's so much mud, you know, How do you see the forest for the trees with all? This, yeah, and then let alone the cops. Yeah, Yeah. Well that's another thing, isn't it? So we're not going to get into too much of the actual underworld cases or anything today. We will absolutely. That is on the list. It's huge though. We're probably going to need multi parts to that one and a lot of time to research.

19:57 So yeah, we'll we'll fit that in somewhere, but. We'll mention names of people and. Definitely, but I feel like this is actually probably a good thing to start with in terms of the underworld stuff because it does provide a lot of context to the cases and the people that we'll be talking about hopefully in future episodes for sure. Yeah. So Nicola Marie Gobbo now first of all, Marie middle name. I feel like anyone born in the 70s to probably mid 80s. Yeah. Your middle name was either Marie or Louise.

20:31 Yeah, Elizabeth or Elizabeth. Yeah, yeah, sorry. What's your middle name? Elizabeth. What's my middle name? Marie. Marie. You're Marie. Yes, it's, I don't know, so many bloody Louises. I know. So, yeah. OK. Nicola. Nicola Marie Gobbo was born on the 16th of November in 1972 in Melbourne. She actually grew up to her parents. Her dad was actually a first generation immigrant and her mum was Australian. Yes. Yeah. And they, you know, they ended up. So Nicola is one of five children, very sort of successful children for the most part, but they grew up in a time where if you're the child of a first generation Australian, there's a lot of expectation on you.

21:21 Her mum and dad both worked very, very hard and they put all of their children through private secondary schools or, or Catholic secondary schools. I think Nicola went to Jenna Zano. Zano. Yeah. And I know her sister and they, the pressure on them to do well, it was basically like if they didn't perform well academically, they were wasting their mom and dad's money. They were. They were throwing their money down the drain. So there was a lot of expectation. And I feel like this is probably a fairly common story to children of certainly first generation immigrants.

21:53 Yeah. And you know that her parent, Nicholas, says that her parents just wanted the best for her and the best life for her and her siblings. And, you know, to them, financial stability and financial well-being was part of that or a massive part of that to be able to then have the life that they wanted them to have. Yep. So, yeah, and that I think their dad, you know, he worked very, very hard, yes, in multiple jobs and and all that along their life. But but Nicholas says they grew up in a very ordinary They weren't rich by any stretch of the imagination.

22:28 They had what they needed, not necessarily what they wanted. And yeah, they were just a typical sort of suburban family. Yeah, for. Sure, yeah, when Nicola was sort of deciding on a career, she said that she originally thought she wanted to be a doctor. But then there was a few things about that, that she was like, oh, maybe that's not for me. And so decided to go down the law path instead. I think part of that decision was because one of her uncle's was actually a Supreme Court. Well, he was a QC at the time, Yeah.

23:05 And then he ended up becoming a Supreme Court Justice. Didn't. He because he actually rejected it at first when he was first offered it and then and then went later on in his career. But yeah, so James Gobbo. So James was her uncle and he's very well respected in the law. He was also the governor of Victoria for life for a time. So yeah, very well known man and very well respected. Yeah, the Gobo name then became, it was a bit of a, you know, notoriety to it. And so even though she was his niece, she would kind of use the name to her advantage and almost it wouldn't correct people if they said that that was her dad basically from what I got.

23:39 What's wrong with a bit of nepotism? Yeah.

23:45 So anyway, she's obviously decided to go down and pursue law. So did her sister. Yeah. And they were both very, very good at what they did, Nicola in particular. In fact, Nicola was one of the youngest women to be admitted into the bar at 26 years of age. Yeah, what an incredible achievement. Yeah, I mean, I think I only took her a couple of years after after uni and she was admitted into the bar, on the bar. I think a lot of that had to do with the fact that when she was doing her like post grad hours, she was mentored by a criminal lawyer who really did push her down that path and saw that she had something in her that he thought she would make an incredible barrister.

24:30 And I guess depending on who you ask that that was the case. She was really, really good at, well, certainly we'll, we'll get to this in more detail, but really good at bail application, bail application, people out of bail like really nitpicking. That was really her, like, absolute best thing she could do, yeah. I did hear something about she this was, and this was out of her mouth where she basically said that because a lot of the briefs for a bail application, sorry, a bail hearing, the briefs from the prosecution were put together by police.

25:04 She's like, well, they don't have law degrees. So I was able to be like, well, no, you can't say that. Or. And it would be the tiniest little, yeah, little tiny thing that would mean that her her clients would get bail when probably they shouldn't have. Allegedly.

25:24 Yeah. So it was just very, very, very interesting. So she was, I guess let's let's call it upfront, but she is a an incredibly notorious lawyer and known as being a secret police informant. Yeah. And I guess this is the bit that kind of I was really interested in exploring when looking into this this week, that the juxtaposition between the loyalty to her client and and the privilege to her client and then the betrayal of them, like it's, it's so at odds with one another. Yeah, I, this is what I find really fascinating.

26:05 I mean, obviously we're talking again, it's like it's this underworld time in Melbourne here where there was a lot of pressure on the police to, you know, get this to stop. We were having, you know, dead bodies turn up left, right and centre and, and shootings at in, in really awful situations, for example, with one of the Moran's being killed in front of his in front of his children at Oz kick. I mean, we're talking horrendous stuff that was going on in that time that the police were, you know, we need to stop this and really get, you know, on top of it, you know, and so they were like, we'll do anything to get a handle on this underworld war, the gangland war that was occurring.

26:42 And then obviously then you've got on the other side of the fence, the lawyers who are getting these guys out of jail every time the cops put them in there. You know, like that's a real, it's, it's, I can understand the struggle of that between the two, you know, opposing situations that yet there's a legal stance that, you know, lawyers then come in to do and they make their money off of that. That's it, which is a joke. But like, in some sense that's not a joke, but it is like. No, I I know you mean it's ridiculous.

27:07 Ridiculous. And I hate that for the police who work their butts off to get to get the crook. Yeah. And then they literally have to put their hands in the air and go. What else can I do now other than like, I've handed him over to you and now the legal system shoot him back out again? And it was this vicious cycle of these guys going, you know, we finally nabbed 1 and up here they are back on the street again doing it again, you know, So I mean, that's I can understand that from a police perspective of going, what can we do here?

27:31 Yeah. To get a handle on this and start getting some crooks really locked up for good time. But they're illegally allowed to have representation and good representation. And that's a. Cornerstone of our legal system isn't it, is that everyone has the right to an attorney. And so the Victoria Police set up a the Piranha task Force and they were basically told that they had almost unlimited scope in terms of what they could do to to get these to stop this underworld stuff from happening and also to get all of those drugs off the street like it is.

28:08 We'll again, as we go through, we'll get to a little bit more about that sort of stuff. But it's, you know, I think I just wonder, does the end justify the means? And I'm not saying yes or no, I just think that's something people need to consider. That's a huge. Question in this. Yeah, Yeah. Is it OK? Yeah, I actually don't know. I maybe as we talk this through, we'll I don't know whether maybe because something but you. Sit there sort of like, OK, loyal client privilege was what I mean. She was representing some of these people directly or advising them, which is a different thing.

28:43 You can advise someone not be their lawyer, but you, if you are representing them, as in you are literally going to court and speaking on their behalf. Her take of whether or not there was client privilege there I find a bit murky in that the understanding of the layman who comes just to a lawyer and says, right, you're my lawyer, is that whatever I tell you is between US and doesn't go any further. And I think that that is a fair assumption of someone who is speaking to their lawyer. Whereas she was kind of like trying to cherry pick here in terms of what was and wasn't client privilege.

29:18 Yeah. So she would basically state that if someone had come to her about that a murder had occurred and they're being charged with that, that anything they discussed about that murder they were charged with was client lawyer privilege. But if in the meantime of telling them about this law, this murder, a story would come up of like Joe Blow down the street. Oh, like, you know, because he's got an ecstasy ring and he's running that out of XYZ, you know, housing house down that street. That was not client privilege and that was the stuff that she was sharing with the police.

29:50 But I, I mean, I don't think that's actually what was happening. I think that there's, I mean, it's clearly we'll get to it, but there's links to things of like her clients directly. But I still even find that that should still be lawyer client privilege. Yeah, because you're telling the story and somehow this person's relevant or whatever that's within the story of that. Therefore it's it's. Connected whenever she's challenged on that though, she's staunch about it and she's like, no, they were not my client.

30:17 That is not a. Breach, yeah, and. I guess. And look, even the Supreme Court Justice has said absolutely this is not. She didn't break the law in some of those instances. Yeah. And she didn't break privilege, but she certainly acted unethically. So yeah, again, we can talk further to that. Yeah, I think so. She started as a criminal defence lawyer in the early 1990s. And she like, when we're talking about these underworld figures, we're talking Tony Mokbel, Carl Williams, Farouk Orman, yes, and countless others.

30:52 I mean, you know, all the little cronies who kind of fell underneath them. And she'd go and act on their behalf in terms of bail applications or sometimes she would actually tell them the wrong thing in order to protect these bigger players. So she certainly wasn't the most ethical of. No representation. I'd almost call her the real estate agent of lawyers. She was playing both sides. Yes, which is just. That's what's so wrong about this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Over the time of the gangland wars, which was 1998 till 2006 in Melbourne, 30 people directly have been attributed to being killed as part of that.

31:31 But I, I think it's actually untold in terms of the amount of. People just in terms of the drugs that were being pumped out and like what, you know, the, you know, the effects of that in the within Melbourne and and beyond. Yeah, that that yeah, there's certainly yeah, other people who are affected by this for sure. Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Would we just touch on what happened prior to her becoming a lawyer either? Even. Sure. So in 1993, this stage, so she's still studying her law degree and she was she'd bought a house because her her dad had passed away by this point and left her a considerable amount of money.

32:05 So she had bought a house that she was living in, but to help pay the bills and things like that, she brought her boyfriend in to live and be in in housemate, but also her boyfriend. And I think he. Started as a housemate and ended up. Ended up became the boyfriend. Yeah. Anyway, so one day in 1993, the house was raided by the police. So. And what was found was amphetamines, marijuana. There were weapons found and these belonged to well the story goes they belonged to her boyfriend Brian Wilson and another person as well who was linked to this Brian.

32:40 So they were charged with drug possession. Now because she was the owner of the house, she should also, she was also charged with that because no matter what these things were being possessed in her house. So therefore she has to be charged. But at the time she gave evidence against her boyfriend and this other person, which meant that she got instead of being charged, convicted of this. She wasn't charged basically because of the the evidence she gave. Now according to her, it was because a couple years later, again, something else happened that she also gave police evidence on that she was linked to.

33:22 Now, according to her, she had no knowledge of this aspect of it, but at this time, because she was informing with these two cases, they had made her an they had officially made her an informant, which means that basically there is a file that only certain police officers are aware of. So because it is completely, it is meant to be as confidential as possible. Who are these people? And so there were these files from about 93 through to about 9596 saying that she was an informant. Now later on when we get to what what goes on with Lawyer X it, this information comes out.

34:06 And according to her, that is the first she knows that she has been named as an informant. Victoria Police say that if it's not in the interest of what they're investigating, legally, they don't actually have to tell a person that they are an informant. Right, because I would have thought you'd have to sign off on that. No, no. OK. Yeah, right. It's then incumbent upon Victoria Police to ensure that measures are taken to ensure her safety if if that is something that she's subscribed to. But if it's not in the interest of justice, yeah, they actually don't have to inform the.

34:44 Informer. That they are officially on the books. Right. OK. So she was given a number at this point as well and all these sorts of things. Yeah. Now what is an informant is generally speaking, they are also a criminal. Yes, it is very I don't. It was fairly unheard of that someone is an informant who is not in a criminal because what they they need basically these informants are basically people who can say, I'll give you this information if you overlook what I'm doing over here. Or if I get a lesser sentence.

35:15 Or yeah, because I'm whatever. Yeah. So if I'm going to give you this information like, you know, you don't have to help me out, you know, later on. So if someone who's not a criminal, they don't have that, you know that. Incentive. Incentive to do that. So why would someone who has all this knowledge but no take in the game like kind of thing, what do they need to be informing for? I guess that would generally just be a witness. Exactly. But then, yeah, it's it's very interesting because I think there's a perception out there and, and look to from what I can gather, I think this is true.

35:46 I obviously don't know Nicola Gobbo, I've never met her, but I think she very much likes to be the centre of attention. That's very much what's been said. Yeah. So maybe that's why, because it, it gave her, I don't know, a little bit of, I don't know, it made her important in the centre of, you know, these particular, I mean, these were not great big charges. No, not compared to what comes later. This is sort of like a first double in it, you know, kind of thing. Yeah. I just find it interesting that, I mean, for someone who's then so involved in this, you know, later on to know that there was a history of this prior, you kind of go, well, yeah, that speaks to the fact that you've done this before.

36:27 They don't. You don't, don't say you don't know how this works. Yeah. You know, so she clearly knew what she was doing. I believe she was setting herself up there. Yeah, just really quickly as well. I think she says that the impact of her father's death, so this is, it's actually really sad. Her mum was diagnosed with non Hodgkin's lymphoma when she was I think 9 or something like that. Yeah. She then survived that, beat it. Apparently, Nicola would say that, you know, she could. I hear her mom vomiting and, you know, really unwell, but she'd still work overnight shift.

37:00 I think she was a nurse and would still work through all of that. And it was really, really difficult. And then only, I think it was only about five years later, her dad was diagnosed with the exact same condition, but he died from it. She was only 14 when he died. Yeah. And they had an incredibly close relationship. So I think, you know, there's something to play there, too, in terms of, like, seeking approval from people, especially from men. Like, I just feel like it's worth having that in the back of our minds as we think about this.

37:30 It's such a formative time to lose your dad. Yeah, crazy. Absolutely. Like, I really feel for her and her siblings in that. And her mum. Her mum's then left with five kids. You know, she's been through some very serious health issues. Her husband's then succumbed to the same disease that she had. It's just. That's crazy. They both end up with that. Yeah. I mean, there's definitely like a trait here with her where, you know, you don't do things by halves. Like, you know, if you're going to do something, she's going to be the best at it.

37:57 Yeah. Kind of attitude. So, you know, whether it was being a lawyer, she was going to be the best at that. Whether it was being an informant, she wanted to be the best at it. Like. So, you know, there's a lot there to say in terms of a personality trait. I think of that approval, that approval or comes into that, you know, doesn't it of like that fact that, yeah, if, if I'm seen to be the best at it, I'm, I'm, I'm doing what I told my dad I was going to do, you know, like I'm meeting his expectations and things.

38:23 So or, you know, or even better, you know, going above and beyond that. So yeah, she was definitely looking for that all the time, I think. Yeah, I think so too. I think so too. Oh, wow. I guess around this time. So she's practicing law. She ended up getting her first job as a lawyer at her mentor's law firm. So that was Alex Lewenburg, I think his name was or is. And he says that. So he thought the light shone out of her. He thought she was so intelligent, so articulate. As I said before, he was the one who pushed her to sit the bar really early into her career, which was almost unheard of for a woman.

39:11 And he thought she was wonderful until she started practicing at his firm. And she, he felt like once she was kind of let go a bit. So she was no longer a graduate. She was kind of taking on her own clients, that she was getting really close to her clients. She was socializing with them outside of work. So this, this sort of pattern of behaviour starting to establish. Yeah. She also was seen having, like, interacting with police. Now as a criminal lawyer, that's an absolute conflict. Yeah, you know, and but she would do it.

39:45 And even though he would say to her, you can't do that, you know, don't be seen out with cops. You need to have a relationship with these people in terms a work relationship like that you can go to certain people and get information, you know, make sure you're getting everything turned over to you as you know, for legally what you need. But in beyond that and like, you know, going to the pub with them or having, you know. Other relationships, yeah, that's yeah. More intimate relationships, but the same was said with her clients like and I'm talking this is pre sort of gangland stuff.

40:15 She would go out for dinner with him and I'm not talking a client dinner, I'm talking like a friendship or more kind of dinner. But again, isn't that like more approval from people too that she's seeking out there, you know, yeah, being liked by everyone. Yeah, the things that, you know, there's stories that come from clients and police officers at around this time or, or definitely sort of once we're getting into the gangland time, that Nicola was known as a bit of a party girl. You know, she was always up for fun.

40:45 She was always upset. I heard some quote that said, you know, she always had her tits out and a bum ready to go or, you know, something like that. Like she was always very out there. She claims she never has never taken. Drugs, that's what she says. She claims that. She says. That a lot of other people say otherwise. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, it's actually, I've got the exact quote about the oh, actually this quote came directly from Paul Dale. We can talk. About Oh my God talking. He said she was extroverted, long blonde hair, low cut top, big breasts, very short miniskirts, loud.

41:21 Always wanted to be the center of attention. Yeah. Which I mean, that's I think that's very, very true. Yeah. Yeah. So Paul Dale, now we need to do a case on Paul Dale as well. Yeah, I I'm fascinated by him. Me too. And I don't know what I think. Yeah, I think, I think it warrants further yeah looking to by us, but I I certainly have an immediate thing I think, but I don't know a lot about it in order to like fully go out there and state it. I don't. Yeah, right. But. He and so he's a Victor, was a Victoria Police detective, got very, very close to Nicola during this time because she was just really good company.

42:04 They ended up having a sexual relationship. Nicholas says they had sex multiple times. Paul Dale says they had sex twice. Who knows, as we said before. He was married with kids. Yeah, like it was in his best interest to maybe downplay that, play it.

42:22 Yeah. So he. Was very senior. Very much. Yeah. So he was, he was quite high up at the time of leading the drug squad. And so for them to be having a relationship, you know, between a criminal lawyer and the head of like the drug squad. Yeah, very interesting. We can go into the details of that when we when we cover. Them, yeah. I think because that, yeah, there is so much there, Yeah. And it is. So it's such a convoluted story, basically. So we're sort of now early career for Nicola and she starts to make a bit of a name for herself in the underworld.

42:59 Now, a lot of this is because of the law firm that she was a part of. They definitely defended these bigger criminals. But as I said, Mr. Lewenberg, her mentor and then employer, he didn't like her fraternizing with the clients and with the police, so he actually got rid of her. Oh, shit. They they parted ways, You're right. And she ended up practicing separately, But she'd already, at this point, made a bit of a name of it for herself. And clients like Tony Mokbel and Carl Williams started to use her more and more.

43:40 Yeah, to the point where she became their lawyer, their top lawyer. I'm sure they had multiple because. They needed to, yeah. But yeah, she was really, she says she was really good at unravelling police briefs and pointing out the weaknesses. Again, we've said that. We said that earlier on, yeah. Any high profile or high level drug trafficking charge that was brought upon anyone in Melbourne at the time either had Nicola Gabo's phone number or knew how to get it. Yeah. And so she was like that point, go to person.

44:11 And she works like 24/7. She was constantly contactable like she was. She really did work her ass off for these people. There's no question in that. She put in every bit, but it was like who was she working for at the time? Like, you know, was she working all those hours supporting her client or was she working all those hours and finding stuff out and then feeding it to cops or or the other way around? You know, like not at this. Point. Not at this point, but yeah, point, yeah. She got Tony so Tony Mokbel really was her first big noted big notorious client and she was able to get him bail after 2 failed attempts by other lawyers.

44:48 So that for him was like right, she's it. She got me bail forever. I shall be using her forever more. Well, Tony, Tony, Tony. Yes. The Crown prosecutor, Jeff Hogan QC, handled most of Victoria Police's criminal trials during that time. And as we said, there were 30 murders that took place during the criminal underworld and, or during the gangland wars. And he often obviously crossed paths with Nicola Gobbo. And he said she was incredibly annoying, like really antagonistic of him and of of I guess anyone coming up against her or her client and say she'd be contesting an application for a DNA sample or something like that.

45:39 She would just literally not give up. She'd talk over people. She would. It was like she had this way of going about it, and she'd found her success in doing that because I. Wonder if it's a tactic in terms like putting that other person off of their game by her being overbearing and. Absolutely. So he he's another one who is quoted as saying she needs to be the centre of attention. And so he just saw this as like courtroom theatrics. Really. Yeah. And it worked. It worked. I mean, she obviously had good legal argument in there, otherwise it wouldn't have worked.

46:14 Yeah. Yeah. Well, you'd hope. Yeah. Surely judges would see through theatrics. Yeah, yeah. Because I mean, we're not talking like with all of these things. I mean, a lot of the time they'll either bail applications or they were, you know, plead guilt, plead guilty and then like, you know, working out sentences and things like that. And so it's not like she was like in front of juries. It was judges. Majority of the time I would say yeah, yeah, yeah, most of the time, yeah. Often, Certainly, yeah.

46:40 Should we talk about how she was recruited as a police informant? Yeah, yeah. Right. So I think this happened in 2005 S the second time. I know in 1990 three 1995, she was well, unbeknownst to her, an informant. You know, she was informing, she didn't know she was officially an informant, but in 2005 it became established she was known as informant 3838. And she, I mean, this was unprecedented in that they'd never had a lawyer. Oh. I don't think anywhere in the world like we're talking, this is just not what is done ethically.

47:20 It's own, many people have looked at this over and over again of like, like legally, I guess it's, I guess it's not illegal, but it is, it's not ethical. No, but the way. See, this is where I kind of like, in some ways I'm like, OK, you've made your bed, lie in it. Yeah. And then in other ways I'm like, well, what the. I don't know what I, I, I don't know. I don't know, I don't know. But basically she says she got to a point where she was you, as you said, she was basically working 24 hours a day.

47:50 She was on call. She couldn't not answer the phone to these guys because they would then threaten her and obviously had the goods. She knew they had the goods to follow through with their thoughts. Yeah, I mean, and saying I'd be shit. Scared Oh my God like. Who care about your life? Situation, no. What a stressful situation to be in. Yeah. So but she got to a point where she knew a lot. She knew a lot of things that had gone on, and it was very, very stressful. And it got to the point where she was like, I want out, but I don't know how to get out.

48:26 I can't get out of this. Yeah. And so she'd actually was appearing at a bail hearing, I think for Mock Bell on this particular day. Yeah, I'm pretty sure, yeah. And for some reason, the court case was adjourned. It was, it wasn't her ended up not being heard that day, which I've heard on the Grapevine or in certain reporting that the reason for that was deliberate and it was to kind of hook her in, right. Whether or not I I don't know because I haven't heard that in all of the places that I've researched.

48:59 Yeah, certain people say something else. And yeah, it's hard. But anyway, let's let's just what for whatever reason, court case was adjourned to another day. And so she didn't need to be in court that day, but she happened to bump into some cops that she knew and she basically just let it all out and broke down. Essentially. She was so incredibly stressed at this time that she she felt like she needed a way out and didn't know how to do it. These cops then put her in touch with the hand. This particular handle couple, she ended up having 4 handlers in the end, but two handlers in were her main handlers.

49:41 I guess put them in contact with her because they're like Oh well she's willing to tell us this, what's where? How far is she actually willing to go? Yeah, because they were desperate to, as we said, to stop these gangland. We're talking 2000 and five, 2006. This is at the end of the gangland war. Things were escalating. This is after Louis Miran died, I think, and was was killed. Yeah. And he was like, this was the way he was executed was horrific thinking. I mean, you know, just thinking of all of the people who had to witness that.

50:11 Oh yeah, the innocent people who had to witness that and. Was so brazen by that point. It was. Just that's right and so things were escalating. You know, Mokbel was bringing in 100 kilos of MDMA or met and you know at a time at this point, the amount of drugs on the streets was insane. He. Was making like 15,000,000 a year like it's insane. Yeah. Yeah, crazy, crazy, crazy amounts of money and a crazy amounts of drugs that were just out on the street. So yes, they were under a lot of pressure to put this to bed.

50:41 Yeah. So if someone was going to give them some information, and I can see that from the Victorian Police point of view, me too, of like that. Like we've got to do something here. And this is handed to them basically on a silver platter of, like, we've got someone who's got serious connection to all this and very much knows their stuff. Yeah, why wouldn't you then go, hey, we want to sit down with this person. That's right. But it's a lawyer. So, yeah, there is a conflict there. You know, it's, it's, oh, it's tough.

51:10 It's really, really tough. Anyway, so her police handler was Sergeant Stephen Fitzpatrick and he basically is the one who coordinated her recruitment, passed her off to the handlers. And I think look, there were there were other motivations for her as well because not only did she want the safety and the protection, which I don't even know how how Victoria Police could do that given the types of people she was involved with. No, I mean at one stage her car was. Firearmed. Yeah, I mean, I don't even know.

51:45 I don't think, I think she has said this like no one can protect me. Like I'm out here on my own basically. Like there's no real genuine protection because if the cops gave her real protection, they'd know that that she was speaking to them. So I don't know. But the see, then there's other things that she talks about about when she first met her handlers. Yeah, they organized a meeting and obviously it had to be very secret. If she was seen to be meeting with police, then that would have been horrible for everyone involved, especially for Nicola.

52:20 So they ended up, they said to her, you've got to go here, get this car, drive it to here, get in this car. And they set up this really elaborate scheme. And then the end point ended up being an apartment across the road from Tony Mokbel's penthouse. See, this is where I kind of go. Did the police want to put her in it? That's what, that's what I think. I'm like, surely they knew all of his residences. I don't believe it was his primary residence, but they would have known. Yeah. Oh God. Why we do like?

52:53 Why the charade and and? The thing is, she was communicating with cops. They knew that she knew cops. She they knew she was sleeping with Paul Dale, like, you know, So I mean, it wouldn't have been unheard of for her to be standing around talking to cops anyway. But then in yeah, I don't know if she was seen talking to members of the Piranha task force, that would be SUS. Well, she was taking information from them back to the crooks too, so it went both ways. But she wasn't saying that she had direct communication.

53:23 OK, I. Don't know. Yeah, It's, it's it's. So. Complicated and so messy, Yes. So I've spoken about her meeting up with, like, at a building adjacent basically to Tony Mokbel's apartment. Yeah, she said one of her handlers, who she was trusting with her life, assured that that first meeting wasn't being recorded. It was. It has since come out that that meeting was recorded. You can hear the tape. Yeah. So if you guys want a real deep dive into Nicola Gobbo, listen to Season 2 of The Trait, the ABC Trace podcast with Rachel Brown.

53:58 It's fantastic. Yeah. And in it you can hear recordings of that first meeting of Nicola with her two police handlers. So that's where like it gets. So where's the trust? Yeah, this is it. I mean, you come to the end of all of this and yeah, there's like who did what to who is always is so like and who was in the right It's. So murky, she says, in that in that first recorded that she didn't know was being recorded. Yeah, meeting with them, she says, I'm here because I've had enough and I don't know the way out.

54:29 I'm nearly 33. What have I done with my life? Oh, by the way, yeah, just before this as well, she had a stroke. Oh, yes. So it was sort of a bit of a build up of this. That's about that, Yeah. I mean, that was due to stress and things. She claims that, you know, that it was all so bad for her that she had this stroke, but. But mate, that was a way out. Like she was already at that point she was so stressed. She was working seven days a week, 24 hours a day. She said she used to leave her home at 6:30 in the morning.

54:54 She wouldn't be home sometimes till 1:00 in the morning again. I've. Potentially taken a whole lot of drugs. And God only knows what else, like as in who's she meeting with? And she because she was, you know, playing both sides in some ways before this, even she it would have been so stressful. Like had who do you know who you've told what to like? It would be a lot to keep keep track of. Incredibly stressful, but she kind of chose. You make your bed like, yeah, I I get that too. But then I also feel for her because she kind of, I don't know, she, I feel like she almost got herself involved in this not knowing, obviously not knowing what the outcome was going to be.

55:34 Yeah. How How in it she was going to get. Yes. So she had a stroke. I think that should have been the point where she was like, sorry, guys, I'm actually not gonna practice Laura anymore. This is too stressful. I need out. Yeah, I'm done. See, that's where that little bit of narcissism kicks in of like, you know that she. Wanted to be wanted. To be in the center of it, yeah. I just, I just think, oh, if you had have just taken that as a sign to be like, OK, this yeah, this is enough now. My body's obviously not coping with this.

56:07 Yeah, I need to move on now. None of this. We wouldn't be talking about this right now. Absolutely. She says I'm nearly 33 and what have I done with my life? I've had a stroke. I get up at 6:00. I go to work by 7, spend all day working. Very rarely do I go anywhere or do anything. For what I know that if I was married or if I had some other particular reason to race home every night, I would, but at the rate I'm going, I'm going to end up dead. She then they offered her in in the this conversation.

56:36 They then offered her a cup of tea and she's like, I'm going to need a couple of bottles of red wine. So she's obviously self medicating otherwise. Yeah. That's it. Which I kind of also get, Yes, you'd need something I guess calm the. Nerves. But the only friends she had were either criminals or police officers. Yep. Like. Yeah, she didn't mingle out of out of that circle then I think it was. It was 100% her life. Yeah. And that's where, I mean, any other lawyer would be like this is that's not how you operate.

57:04 Like her, her mentor previously, it's like, that is not how this works. You, you have your life and you come to work and you do your job and then you go home to your life. Like otherwise, yeah, you're gonna get yourself into trouble. And that's what has happened to her. Yeah, but I mean, this is the other thing, right? So she was so involved in her clients lives that she was she made a speech at Carl Williams daughter's christening. Dakota. Yeah, Dakota Williams christening. She's there in a that pink dress, which I think is infamous.

57:38 Everyone probably when you I feel like when you think of Nicola Gabo, that's. The that's the picture like, well, because either side of her in that photo is Benji Veneman. Yeah. And Carl Williams, I mean, and she's in that photo with, you know, their arms are around each other and they beaming smile and she she is one of them in that photo. And this is the thing like she's placing herself with the criminals in that. Like that just blows my mind. I don't, I just really can't get my head around that.

58:07 If you're a criminal defence lawyer, that you would then be socializing in that kind of an aspect that it could be taken by police that you are actually a criminal with them. Well, that's what Victoria Police say. And yeah, they, they had that, they had that impression of her because. She can lose her license for, you know, not be able to practice. If that's the case. If they could link her in some way to being connected to any of the drugs that were being imported and stuff like that or any of the the killings that were happening or anything else that was going on around them, she'd lose her license.

58:41 But that wasn't, didn't seem to be a concern for her, I don't reckon. Like she seemed to think she had it. It was a bit of buff. It all up. Yeah, OK, because she had so many cops and in her back pocket too. I know, yeah. She was absolutely playing both sides, like even before, yeah. Yeah. So when she was informing, I think, I think this goes to her state of mind as well, but she would ring her handlers. So she had two handlers. They both had pseudonyms. One was Sandy White and the other one was Officer Fox.

59:12 They would take a minimum of 10 phone calls from her a day with information so she'd hear something. She'd call them. So she became as dependent on them as her clients were on her. She claims that she informed on 350 different people. It's true. That is true because in the time, so I think she was only an in like by the time this all kind of came to an end and came out maybe a year and a half, something like that got 5000 written. Oh, sorry, no, it was four years in total. Sorry. Right. 5000 written reports by Victoria Police referencing her.

59:57 So Informant 30385000 reports were submitted in that four years, Yeah. That actually on that of how long it went on for. Supposedly officially it ended in 2009, but there is record of her informing up until 2012. Yeah, there's reports of information that she'd given even up to 2015, but that was from information she'd given previously. Yeah. Yeah, her information helped Victoria Police make over 400 arrests. Wow. So it wasn't all for nothing. Do you know what I? Mean and I think I. Think a lot of.

1:00:31 The. Good that came out of this gets lost yes in the shit because the shits more exciting. And this is it. I mean, it's not like, and we say there's, you know, that many people, that many convictions over this, which, yeah, there's, there's good of that because it did, it did end the gangland war, you know, like it did bring that to an end. Yeah. But did it do it legally? And that's OK. Did it do it legally? Whatever. Look, I mean, that's not whatever. I shouldn't say that that that is a consideration.

1:00:58 Yeah, but it had to come to an end. This is it and that's where the police, like Victoria Police stand on that in that absolutely. And again, we are. It is. That's the end. Justify the means. Yeah, I mean, it's a hill they're willing to die on, basically. They're like literally like. But this ended what was going on. So even if you don't agree with us doing it, it got to the end that we that everyone in Melbourne wanted. Absolutely. And I do understand where they're coming from. But. But still, these are, even though they're criminals, they still have rights.

1:01:26 And so they still have the right to legal representation that they can trust. Yeah. And so that that's where I just kind of go, oh, you've still got to do this the right way. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, because there's a number of convictions that have had to be looked at and gone, have gone back to court and there's, and not to say like every single one that has ever been, you know, convicted is it has been done illegally. You know, there's definitely ones that she was informing on as well saying that that they could, they can say that she actually had no, no, no contact with that person.

1:02:00 They were not her client. So she could, she found out things, you know, at a party not acting as a lawyer and was able to share that information completely. Yeah, out of her role as as their representative as a lawyer. So there's certainly many of these that will never get, you know, looked at again. But there's a lot of cases that did have to be looked at again to ensure that there was no illegal action happened. In terms of her being playing both sides, because it is it's illegal for her to have given out that information.

1:02:31 I mean, and it's affected big cases too. So particularly as we talked about Tony Mokbel, I think it was he was, there's like 3 main charges on him and two of those have been quashed. Yeah, so two of his convictions have been completely overturned. 1/3 It's still being there. Isn't it? Well, yeah, so there is a retrial into the orbital case, as it was called, and that was for importing a commercial quantity of MDMA. Yeah, this is when he was importing like 8. That's not the tomato Ecstasy 1, is it?

1:03:05 No, no, no. That's a different. 1. That was in, that was €800,000, a hundred kilos of MDMA. I don't think that was the tomato. No, the tomato one was much bigger than that. Yeah, that was the ecstasy pills, Yeah. Yeah. So that's going through a retrial at the moment, but. But in the retrial though, obviously the anything that Nicola Gobbo informed can't be used so. But the reason this has gone to retrial is because they think they've got enough other evidence outside of that. Yeah, to get a conviction.

1:03:37 So basically, I think, I think Tony Mokbel was sentenced to something like, off the top of my head, I think it was like 38 years in prison or something. Or. No, actually, no, it was 40 years in prison, and then that got downgraded to 33 years. He got some time off for something. Yeah. He may now walk free, but he's been in prison, I mean, since what, 2012, I think it was, or something like that. Yeah, Can't remember when he was arrested now. Whatever, he's been in prison for a long time. I think he's served over 2000 days or something.

1:04:09 OK, but he could essentially walk free now, like, so OK, yes, we've got 400 other convictions. Great. How many of those are then going to appeal now because Nicola Gobbo was involved? Yeah. We've got, well, Farooq Oman as one. I mean, his was overturned as well. Yeah. So he was a guy who was involved in. Well, there's someone else we've talked about here, Victor Pierce. Yeah, supposedly he. What happened with that one was that Nicola Gobbo informed, basically saying that he was the driver of the car.

1:04:42 Benji Veneman was the person who shot Victor Pierce, but was saying that Farooq was the driver. And we talked about all that in our episode back in the. We talked about pinnacles. Yeah. But yeah, so but it turns out, well, according to Farooq, it wasn't him. He was not in that car. He was not the driver. It was just convenient for Nicola to say that it was him. Yeah, at the time. And so. And that's been overturned. So, I mean, he wasn't wrong in in that. So with that being quashed, so there's another.

1:05:08 There's one that's done. I mean, he did other things. I mean he he deserved to be in jail but maybe not for that particular 1 like. I mean, exactly. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So just from a handler's perspective, you know, they have a an obligation to ensure the safety of their informants, right? Yeah. Her main handler, Sandy White, was becoming increasingly concerned about Nicola. He basically said that she had no life outside of what she was doing. So the only people, he says, the only people with a moral compass she spoke to were me and the other officer.

1:05:51 Did they? Have a moral compass. I think those guys, I mean, notwithstanding what they were asking Nicola to do, it's going. To say because Ronnie Doles would disagree. Alright, Yeah. Well, yes, Yeah, again, it's ethically very great. Yeah. Isn't it? Because I get on one hand they wanted the outcome to be what it ended up being, but then how they got there, I get it Like it is. It's. Does the end justify the means? She.

1:06:26 Yeah. So basically Sandy White was saying that he was becoming increasingly concerned about her. She lost 49 kilos. She wasn't eating. She wasn't looking after herself. She'd had this stroke like major health issues, and she'd lost all of this weight. She was just a nervous. That's a weight to lose. That's a. Lot and for note she wasn't doing anything No, this was just as a. Totally on. Stress, stress. Like, imagine the state of her body at the time. Yeah. So he basically said to her, oh, I'll refer you to a police psychologist.

1:07:00 Yep. That police psychologist was reporting back to Sandy White and Officer Fox. He was informing on her on this God. So that's again that's ethically not. It's not okay. It's not okay. And Nicholas said she thought that there would be that. That was a privileged conversation. Yes. It's like, well, you know. It's such a dirty world, so dirty. So dirty. God. She couldn't sleep, she was grinding her teeth, you know, she just had so much going on. Yeah, and it was showing itself physically, yes, obviously mentally it would have been an absolute mind fuck, but because.

1:07:42 She had a second stroke. She did she. Did that was towards the end of all this, wasn't it? That's right, yeah. But again, it didn't really stop anything. No. Yep. So the police psychologist said she was clinically, clinically depressed and potentially suicidal. She Nicola admits that on 2 occasions she was absolutely suicidal and if she had the means to go through with it, she would have. Yeah, right. I mean, Oh my gosh, I can't. I can't imagine being in that state. But then I can also see like, she obviously felt like she was in it so deep.

1:08:26 Yeah, that she saw no other way out. Yeah, yeah, for sure. I I get I get how she would have gotten to that point. Yeah, definitely. I mean the pressure that she'd be on under from both sides, Yeah, yeah. Because, I mean, yeah, this is where it gets so messy that, as we say, she was literally informing to the police with this stuff officially, and that was all documented, but there was stuff that she was taking to the crim's. For example, she's said to Tony Mokbel, you're gonna get charged with two counts of murder.

1:09:00 So what does he do? Flee. Flee, Love. This disappears off to Bonnie Doone first. Bonnie. Doone for a year. We're going to Bonnie Doone. God, that is. Such a good movie. So good. I'm rated R Why, yeah, I don't know. Because I'm, he says. I've cleared fucking trade 3 before. Maybe is that it because that? Would be like the only thing. I don't know, but I'm like, my kids are watching that. Yeah. Oh, no, I keep meaning to put that on. We actually put it on the list. It's. Gotta get done. It's gotta get done.

1:09:29 Yeah. Absolute Aussie classic, yeah. And. Then you orchestrate, orchestrate this whole thing of like getting out of the country because, yeah, it's it's pressure being put on of where is he, where is he? It actually thought already fled the country at that point, but he was actually was hiding out in Bonnie Doon, which I thought was pretty smart actually, Yeah. But yeah, the whole thing of him like getting out of Australia and how he did that is that's we'll get into another another day because it's very fun.

1:09:54 But anyway, he ends up in Greece. He ends up in Greece. Yeah, and he's hiding out there. He's got himself a wig, had no plastic surgery to change the way he looks. The wig. Yeah, the wig's great. They've just loved photos. That was the the front page of the newspaper at that point in time was just gold. Gold. I love that gold. Yeah. But anyway, in the end the AFP and Victoria Police ended up finding him and yeah, bringing him back. But I mean, that's, that was Nicola Golbo. Yeah, that that triggered all of that.

1:10:19 I mean, the amount of money that the Victorian police paid to get Tony Bob Bell back here and to find him, all those things, if you think about it, yeah, that's all on Nicola Gobbo. That's. And but yet she was informing to the police and yeah, they were making arrests and convicting crimes as well based on her information. But it was equally going the other way. So I just, I just does my head in. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's, it's, it's so bizarre and. They're the ones we know about. They're the ones and there's so much we don't know about.

1:10:54 Although there was a royal Commission into the management of police informants, yes, in 2018. And I know this is kind of getting a little bit ahead, but a lot came out in that, especially in relation to Nicola Gobbo and this entire Lawyer X Informant 3838 situation. Yeah, she went so far as to wear wires when she was having conversations with certain people, even Paul Dale, somebody who she. Slept with, that was one where that was a real cross of the line in terms of that was actually officially she was going to be a witness in that.

1:11:33 Yeah, she wasn't an informant for that. And that was where it became great. Very grey because that's where, yeah, publicly it would be known that was there was a lawyer who had gone into that conversation wired up. Yeah. And yes, no, she wasn't his lawyer at the time, but yeah, she could advise him in that conversation as a lawyer and therefore it's crossing those lines again and the public would get knowledge of that. So she really was like, I'm not I don't want to do this, I can't do this because there was stuff in that conversation that he never really in this.

1:12:04 I mean you can literally listen to the tape of it that. Yeah, I, I can get both perspectives on he he's, he's very careful in how he says things because. And then the cops were like, oh, we've we've done, we've got him. But then, but then, then Nicola Go was literally advising the police saying no, because if I was his lawyer, I'd be like, I'd say this, I'd say this. And therefore he won't get any conviction on it. So. That was that was in relation to the Terrance Hudson. Murder. Yeah, which is very.

1:12:33 Interesting, very interesting. So when we do the Paul Dale case, we'll probably do it with. The Yeah, well, that'll come into it there. Yeah, for sure. That's yeah. It's a very, very interesting case. Yeah, yeah. I mean, she's at the end of all this. And pretty much when she gets this point with Paul Dale where she's wired up to talk to him, that's where she goes on. And I'm, I'm not doing this. So we kind of get to this point now where the the the public and there are more people that are knowing kind of putting it together of who she is and that she is the is lawyer X, you know, which wasn't named that it's still, you know, within the legal system.

1:13:08 Kind of hang on a minute. Is she is she an informal like, because too many people started putting it together. So the police did back away from using her entirely, but it meant that she was still under a lot of pressure from that. Criminals were also working this out. So Carl Williams, actually, I mean, as much as people think he was stupid, that was a total game on his part. He was not stupid. He knew that she was informing. He called it a long time before anyone else did. So she knew that she was in a bit of shit and that because Carl Williams, by any means, he would just get rid of her.

1:13:41 Oh, oh, even though he she gave a speech at his daughter's christening, he would absolutely get rid of her if she. Was because in his mind, she's double crossed. Him, absolutely. Yeah. So he was all over it and she knew it and it really did put her in a position. So she started, she basically, she did sue the police as at a point to that, that she hadn't been, you know, handled properly as as an informer. And she, I think she got 2.3 million out of that. She did, she refused to go into witness protection, which they did offer her.

1:14:10 I mean, in order to ask her if she's in witness protection, obviously like, but she has adamantly said she's not in witness protection and, and has never been in witness protection. We don't know. It's not, not for anyone else to know of what's going on there. But according to the to the police and to her that she's been offered witness protection, but she says she's refused that and he's not. So she was offered away in terms of being able to stay out of harm's way, I guess, which she hasn't taken, which I just find that interesting.

1:14:41 If you really thought you were in danger, wouldn't you take that option? I don't know. Especially because at that point she didn't have children. Well, yeah, that's that at that point. Yeah. It's interesting what's happened with that, since I think with children in the. In the mix. It's really, really complicated things. Yeah. She then went on to meet The Who would the man who would become the father of her children now. Richard Barker. Yeah. We don't know a huge amount about him, really. We believe he has had some convictions of his own and potentially spent some time in prison.

1:15:16 Yeah, I don't know how much time, but it was drug related. Yeah, but. We don't know real specifics of it, which is fine because that's that's something completely separate to this. But they did have two children in very quick succession, first a daughter and then a son. And around this time is when Nicola, like all of this sort of lawyer ex stuff started coming out. So as I said, as you were saying, people knew, right? People knew Nicola Gabo was the person, that she was an informant, that she was basically double playing everyone and one of the newspapers was going to expose the story and they found out about, as in Nicola's camp, I guess, found out.

1:16:06 Oh actually, no, it was Victoria Police found out about the fact that this newspaper was going to publish her name. They sought an injunction, an urgent injunction, and it meant that the newspaper couldn't print her name. So they went with the Lawyer X title, which is now really stuck with it. And it was years, years that all of this was reported as Lawyer X. And I still remember thinking, who? Would it be who? Could it be? But those I mean those in. The those in the no. They knew for sure. Well, I mean our good friend Ron Idols, he famously was sent to Bali actually where she was hiding out during all this time where it was sort.

1:16:47 Of like, she should be named on holiday. Yeah, she needed a break. Yes, this is after the second stroke. She had the two children. Yeah, she needed a break and Victoria Police, well, we like, we can't stop her from going overseas. Like we actually, there's no reason we can stop her. No, we kind of need eyes on her. So Ron Needles being, you know, the the person he was. Well, he actually needed to go and interview her about a particular case. So there was something that which was completely above board.

1:17:15 It was, yeah, something, I can't remember exactly which case it was, wasn't a big one or by any means. It was just something that he needed some information on that she was willing to give. And so he went over there and met up with her to do this and in talking to her realized, put two and two together and went fuck your lawyer X. And so he actually said to her he'd already got her statement. And he this is where I just love him. His integrity is so. 2nd to none, second to none, he said. He reckons he would 100% because he just called it out and he goes, Oh my God, he said it to her.

1:17:50 He wasn't like it by any means keeping this information that he had realized. He said to her by you signing this, you know that this is going to come out that you by what you've said, this is going to link you to everything else. I don't think you should sign it. And he actually talked her out of signing it like as in he was when she realized too she was that she was like going to be outing herself. She was like hesitant then, but he reckoned if he used his skills that he has 'cause he has such good insight in people, he knows how to work people, He could have got her to sign it.

1:18:19 Mm Hmm. But he was like, I'm not gonna make this happen. And he walked away from being sent over there to do this job. I mean, I mean, that's if you turn police money. To get a. Signed to get a signed statement from her and. He's told not to come back without a signed statement. Yeah, he came back without it. We would come up with a statement, but not signed and said to he went to the bigwigs. He went into like Simon Overland's office, the commissioner at the time at the time, yeah. And said, you motherfuckers, this is she's lawyer X and you guys are going to get screwed here.

1:18:51 And not only that, there's going to be people who get out of jail back because of The Who. I like the fact that she's who this person is. Yep, he called it. I just have so much respect. For him. Oh, me too. Got it. Just he's the best. Yeah. Yeah, Actually the best. Yeah. So Nicolas, then come, obviously come home from this holiday that wasn't really a holiday, I guess in the end. Yeah. And it was actually not until all of the Hudson murder stuff came out. Yeah. That her name was implicated in all of this.

1:19:23 And it was found out by everyone that Nicola Gabo, Lawyer X Yeah. Now, this put her in a really, really dangerous situation. So of course, we know, like the likes of Karl and I would imagine turning Mark. Well, people would know. Yeah. But nothing was done because it wasn't widely known, right. She still feared for her life. She's still. Yeah. Because at this point, Karl Williams was dead too. Yeah, yeah, he'd already been stabbed in prison. Which they, which there's questions around who call that, which again, is she linked to that, you know, like questions around questions around that around, you know, like what, what, how much participation does she have in this?

1:20:06 We don't know. Who's who's porn? Who's strings? We don't really know, don't know. Because there's so much cover up and so much muddiness around all of this. Yeah, Yeah. So she basically is. She has no choice, really, but to flee. Yeah. Absolutely. It has been reported that she has lived in I think 7 different countries over the last. How? That was in 2016. Did she leave anyway? When, whenever she left? So she's got her two young children with her. I believe at this point her the father of her children was in prison.

1:20:47 So she left with the two children. They well, she says they are essentially stateless because wherever they're living, they don't they're not resident permanent residents. They don't have any rights in those countries. You know, access to Healthcare is expensive. Access to education for her children is really tricky and it's she's got no help. She's a single mum in a foreign country with two young children who are relying on her. All she wants is to return to Australia where she's got support and help, but she wants police protection to do so.

1:21:24 The police say that if and when she returned to Australia that they would remove her children because in the best interest of those children, their mother was coming into this country with a target on her head and putting them at risk. Putting them at risk, so. I find that really, I mean, I heard one of the things she says about that, which I find really interesting, is that like for example, the Moran's who had children and you know, Jason Moran had children and he was shot at Auskick kind of stuff that well, why didn't they take his children away?

1:21:57 They knew that he was, you know, kind of under the pump and potentially going to be that's what. Nicholas. Says that's what Nicholas says, which I I tend to agree with that like why aren't you taking off all these crim's who are likely to shoot each other and kill each other? Why you're not going around taking all their kids off them? But if I convenient. If she's not in the country. I really do. I think that there's a little bit of, you know, no, we want you to stay over there out of sight. I don't mind because if she comes back and she does start talking.

1:22:22 I think there's stuff for sure. I think there probably is stuff that people don't. And when I say people, I'm thinking maybe Victoria Paul might not want coming out and she's she's talking. Well, she is. She has spoken to a number of journalists, but she is very careful in how she speaks. And I find it very interesting, one of the more recent interviews she's done, which is that Trace podcast. Yeah, that with Rachel. Brown. Yes. Rachel Brown. Yeah. So you watch the video of that, She dresses herself very plain down.

1:22:55 Yeah. No makeup. Like pretty like actually no makeup sort of stuff. And she knew she was being filmed for 7:30. So Rachel Brand did the Trace podcast. She was also, she filmed an interview for Seven 3730 Report. Yeah. And no, that was. No, I think that was. Oh, no, Four Corners. It was a Four Corners. Yeah. They used some of the footage in Four Corners. Yeah. So like, I mean, yeah, she knew she was being filmed, all those sorts of things. And I just find like, you know, it's the lawyer and her coming out like she advised her clients similarly like to dress a certain way to, you know.

1:23:26 Elicit. Elicit a certain response yeah, and she certainly tries to do that in that and I find it really obvious to be personally, I do personally like and even the way she. Especially because you look at the way she would dress when she was a lawyer, like she was always very her style, her sense of style is very out there and very like overdone, you know, like always. Obvious like. Always with the full face of makeup, her hair's always in this like big sort of this big blonde mop on top of her head and or she.

1:23:55 Looks dowdy and, you know, and it's like, feel sorry for me yeah. You know, I really do think she's trying to elicit that kind of response from viewers. And particularly even how she answers certain questions, it's that she, Rachel's very good. She's not coming at it from an angle of I'm on her side or any that she does really push her on things and she's asking some pretty hard questions of her and the way she like talks around and doesn't answer questions. And he's all like, oh, but I don't know, like leave me alone.

1:24:25 And it's you're not that person. That is not who you are and it's not how you know 95% of other people describe you. This is you're putting on something here and I that's where I just don't then go. I don't trust you. But I reckon she's got information that I just say Victoria Paul do not want coming out and she knows it because she and she's trying to use it to her advantage and it's not working. So, yeah, it's, it's it's interesting. In that interview, Rachel Brown asked said like, whether she thinks it's worth it.

1:25:01 Yeah. And she says, look where I am. No, it wasn't obviously. Like, I mean, I say obviously, but then I mean. For her personally, probably for the greater good of Melbourne, maybe it was, but. She says she was used, abused and kicked to the curb. Not just kicked to the side of the road, but run over, reverse the car back and run over again by Victoria fully. Look, I don't disagree, but at the same time I think she kind of chose, she made her choices. I. Just don't really know what else she expected.

1:25:32 No, that, that's what I mean, yeah. It's like what? There there was really no other outcome in this. No, that's yeah, exactly. Yeah, and she's a smart, a very, very intelligent woman. Yeah, I mean, I think there's Victoria poll people who also say, like, if criminals wanted her dead, she'd be dead. Yeah, and she's not. Yeah, why? Maybe I don't really care. Or maybe they know that she's got stuff that can help them as well. I, I don't know, I don't know. So as I said before, there was a royal Commission into the management of police informants after this, because obviously this was an incredibly ethically grey area and it needed to be looked into.

1:26:15 The Commission was first established in 2018 and it was led by Commissioner Margaret McMurdo. So they looked into like how she became an informant, which convictions were compromised, and I believe there were like 1000 cases that she was involved with and they determined that for about 300 of those cases could potentially be impacted. They looked into the failures in Victoria Police's oversight and the legal disclosure practices in terms of managing informants. They found that there were systematic failures, lack of oversight, inadequate checks and improper use of confidential information.

1:27:00 There were 111 recommendations made at the end. At the end of the royal Commission there was legislation, recommendations of legislation to be made with regard to human sources oversight, so they said they should be. There should have been a public interest monitor in terms of overseeing all of this stuff so that it's not just managed by one organization and a member essentially of the public. Yeah, disclosure reforms to protect those who are accused and legal profession guidance and monitoring for the informant.

1:27:37 Yeah. And that's independent legal advice. They absolutely need that. Yeah. Because otherwise Victoria Police can say to them, oh, yeah, we'll give you, I don't know, 20 years off your sentence if you're if you're convicted of this. There's nothing. Those people, that person who's taking that on is trusting in Victoria Police. They have no legal representation because they then at this point are not allowed to. No, it's allowed to know that they're an informant. Yeah, now they're saying that those people should have independent.

1:28:06 Legal counsel, yeah.

1:28:10 I don't know. It makes it very interesting. I guess it make it can make it very difficult, I think for Victoria Police to then have people come forward. Yeah, I mean, obviously there was very valuable information in this, but other informants, you know, that are linked to this case even that are what genuine informants. If it makes it more challenging to get those people even on board to do these things, there's many convictions that won't happen and we could end up in a total shit show. And our our legal system is already enough in a shit show.

1:28:47 Oh. Imagine if we had all of those. Yeah, I know Victoria under police. Sorry. Victoria Police undertook some of the recommendations and in 2023 they enacted the Human Source Management Act. So the way that Victoria Police from 2023 onwards handles their informants has changed and it's a much more structured. There's outlines requirements, the it's audited now and there are there is greater governance over how they go about that and what they're allowed to do within the confines of that. But the, the, I guess it's a lot more strict and tight in terms of what they can and can't do with an informant and the expectations of an informant.

1:29:37 So that's a positive, I suppose that's come out of this. Yeah. And then I guess the legal profession, you know, there's got to be awareness around ethical boundaries and where that falls. Yeah, confidentiality and then these dueling relationships, these dueling priorities that she had, you know, it's yeah, there's a lot there. I don't believe that. I personally don't think the police should approach. I should have ever approached her about being an informant. I absolutely do think that's that's wrong.

1:30:08 They got her. In a moment of weakness, though, didn't they like when they When she signed on, she was at the end, she was. But this and that's that. Well, I mean, you've got to be of sound mind and to be able to make those decisions. And she wasn't. I I did hear something. Now, I don't know whether this was corroborated or not, but someone said something about Victoria Police hearing that she'd had a stroke. This was before she'd actually become an informant, heard that she'd had a stroke, and considered sending a handler in there to try and recruit her while she was recovering from the stroke.

1:30:46 It didn't end up happening. It didn't end up happening, but. Even the thought the. Thought of it. It's that's so wrong. I mean, yeah, as I say what the outcome of all this was. I mean, I'm all for the fact that like these gangland wars were stopped and like that they got results. But I don't agree with the fact that they recruited a lawyer, a criminal lawyer at that, to be informing on their clients. I Yeah. I guess the big question is how? How would Victoria Police have maintained, and I guess Nicola Gober have maintained the ethical standards that are expected of both while also fighting organized crime?

1:31:30 I don't know. I'm so keen to hear what people think. Yeah, I really. Am it is a real yeah, a moral and ethical minefield. Yeah. So please let us know. I really am curious to see what people think like because I can see I can see things from both sides in a lot of ways. Yeah, yeah. The system is at fault,

1:31:59 actually. You know what? Let's just make you bad, you go jail, yeah. Easy, Easy done. Easy, easy done. Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, you know, it's it's a bit mental, that one. It really is. Oh, it really is. As we said earlier, if you want to know more about this case in a lot more depth, The Trace Season 2 Season 1 is the case of Maria James, which we've done a case on as. Well, so I haven't done OK. Go back and listen to that if you want to. But season 2 is, is Nicola Gobbo Lawyer X. And then there's the 7:30 report and a Four Corners episode about this.

1:32:36 And then there's countless other things that you can find about it as well. But if you want to hear directly from Nicola's mouth, they're they're the three sources to. Go to. That's interesting to then hear her perspective. But yeah. I think so, but. If you're looking for entertainment on this, there's obviously the Underbelly series of you know that you can check out and there's there is there's a two-part miniseries literally just on lawyer X, which is actually not a bad watch. I've been in a while, but yeah, it's actually pretty good.

1:33:01 It's not there are non factual, it's thrown in and timelines a little out and also. They've combined a couple of characters just for the sake of the story, so it's not exactly factual. Yeah, it is. Interesting. You get a pretty good idea of what what went on in, you know, in that sense. I think it gives you a vibe of the time. Definitely, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's it's it's worth a watch for sure. Like I actually want to go back and watch all the Underbelly series now. They're so. Good. That blend of them.

1:33:29 Yeah. All right. Anything else to add before we finish up for today? Think we're good? OK, next week we're going to be talking about the Amy Lynn Bradley. Yeah. Well, this is a yeah. I don't know a lot about this. I know a little bit about it and I'm actually really keen to get into research. I've actually been putting off listening to certain things that I've. I've heard about things that go, oh, I want to read, I want to read this. I'll listen to that in the. But I'm like during the week when I'm actually researching.

1:33:55 Yeah. Because I'm like, Oh no, I'm sorry. I'm excited to get into that one too, because it's yeah. Me too, crazy. Me too. All right, thank you everybody for joining us. Please go ahead and like us on the socials. That is really, really great. If you'd like to join us over on Patreon, we are actually about to record an episode that will go out. Actually, it will probably already be out when the episode comes out, so you can do so at patreon.com/two Crime Besties. That's it. For some reason we're not like when you search for it on an Apple phone, we believe it's not coming up.

1:34:30 So we'll try and get on to fixing that for some reason. That exactly if. You put in that link, you will absolutely find as it will come straight to us that's. It yes, All right, thank you for joining us again. Stay curious, crime besties. Bye.