Episode 66 - Karen Read & John O'Keefe

0:15 Welcome back to Crime Besties. After a week's break, here we are, another episode ready and raring to go. Absolutely. We're ready and raring. I'm feeling a little bit out of sorts. I don't. Know same not practice enough we've only had a week oh bit bit over a week off yeah but that's OK yeah that's OK we'll we'll get back into it don't you worry just. Loosen up. That's right. How has your couple of weeks? Oh. Come on, you have to go first. Tell us about your couple of. Weeks. Well, OK, I mean, if you insist.

0:44 I went to South Korea and it was phenomenal. Like it was. Honestly, it is the hidden gem of Asia. Everyone needs to put it on their list. It is probably one of the best countries I've ever been to and it was just extraordinary. It was everything I wanted it to be and then some. Wow. The food was great. It is so clean, it's really safe, the people are beautiful and really welcoming of visitors and guests. And it was just wonderful. Like everything about it. There was not one thing I did that I was like, oh, Nah, probably wouldn't do that again or what?

1:22 What have I gotten myself into or anything like that. It was just yeah, phenomenal, Absolutely phenomenal. Highly recommend it. And although I didn't take my kids, I went like, girls trip. Don't be jealous. There is. You know, I would. I can't wait to take the kids back there because there's so much for kids to do there. It's really sort of set up well for that and it's so easy to get around. Their public transport system's incredible. Just so good. So, so good. A highly highly, highly highly recommend it.

1:55 As I'm saying to you, our TikTok feed has kind of been influenced by the factors like that on in South Korea. And they're therefore like, I'm getting like even just through there, like these clips and things are like what to do in South Korea. And looking at that, I was like, oh, like, this is not. I don't know what I expected from South Korea. It's just not a country that's ever been on my radar. It's not. I don't know nothing about what South Korea has to offer. Yeah. You know, And like looking at the Tik Toks, I was like, oh wow, now.

2:19 I know shopping. Oh, the shopping is amazing. Yeah. They love a personalized item. So like, you go to any of the stores there and you can personalize almost anything. So like I brought the kids back some Nike T-shirts and you can get them all personalized and Nike caps. They love a sporting brand. So all of that sort of stuff. Even just they have these underground markets that are sort of you get off the subway and they're sort of at the subway station. Yeah. And it's market as far as the eye can see, just like kilometers of it.

2:52 My dream. And the food, like there's food, there's clothes. Like the clothes are even just beautiful. They're in so well priced and it's not, it's not dirt cheap. It's not like going to Bali, No, but it's way cheaper than Australia. And I'm guessing quality, though, excellent quality. Bali is great for how cheap it is, but, you know, that T-shirt gets a hole in it pretty quick. Yeah, actually. And that sort of stuff. So yeah, you pay for what you get. Like, yeah. Yeah, yeah, good quality stuff. And yeah, the food was amazing.

3:20 I did not eat one thing that I was like, oh, not yeah. I mean, I'm pretty, you're pretty adventurous. Pretty adventurous with my eating. But even still, like my youngest, as I'm sure everyone who's been listening for a long time knows, he's so fussy. Yeah. I feel like everywhere we went there was something that I know he would eat because, I mean, they love a fried chicken and he'll eat fried chicken. Yeah. OK. Or like even just like plain rice or sort of like a stir fried rice or something. They had that.

3:46 But we we had so many soups and it was just a mate just so good. So no good. Yeah. So if it's on your list, guys, yeah, get on there. Yeah, that. Yeah, yeah. What have you been up to? Oh, just the usual, you know, the routine of it all. Yeah. Like, not really good.

4:04 No, I mean, we've had school holidays here, so I've, you know, got to hang out because we went away for a few nights and so which was really good. It's always good to get away and yeah, do those sorts of fun things that you don't ordinary do. Actually, I I've brought back a love of mine that I'm now determined I'm going to do more. Of oh, tell me. Yeah, I've always been really into ceramics and doing pottery. Yeah, and I absolutely love it. When we were away, there was this pottery place that we went to that was, it was like an artist's commune, kind of almost.

4:31 It was lots of different artists that you could go and check out their work and things. But there was like an area where the kids got to, you know, glaze their own item, which we're still waiting on getting delivered. Oh yeah, and. Stuff from where? We were and but they they also gave them like a thing of clay to like work with as well, which was air dry clay. So, you know, just took that with you and Oh my God, I was so therapeutic sitting there, you know, constructing things and that and the and the boys were like really impressed with my.

4:55 Skills. So I felt really good about myself, yeah. And if your kids are impressed, you know, it must be impressive. Like, it takes a bit. Yeah. So yeah, no, it was really, really nice. All of it with well, actually there's four of us sitting there that we're all doing it together, that we all like walked away going Oh my God, I just feel really good about myself right now, like. Oh, how good is. Calm. Yeah. So I'm like, no, I really need to do some pottery. I need to get nice. To play in my life.

5:22 Yep, whether I do a class or whether I get it at home and do the air dry thing or whatever, that just. Well, scratch that. Itch, you know. The friend of the podcast, Talia, Oh yeah, is begin to her pottery. Maybe I need to get her to, to have a chat with you because she'd make some amazing stuff. Oh, I need to. And she goes, she's sort of, I think now she might even have a kiln at home. I think maybe, I'm not sure, don't quote me on that, but she does a lot of it at home and she's been, you know, selling her stuff at markets and stuff.

5:53 I'm certainly not that, but. Oh, I reckon, I mean, you know, just takes a bit of practice and and you'll be there, just you. Know make a few pinch pots, that's all good. So her Instagram handle is yeah, at little Box of Chaos, all one word. So check her out. She'd make some really, really cool stuff. She's very, very talented. Amazing. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, definitely. I, I see the appeal of it, although I just don't feel like my artistic skills really match. So I I'd have a vision of what I wanted to do and I just don't think I'd be able to execute.

6:26 It oh, how do you put No, keep it simple, stupid. OK, it's my my absolute philosophy of life isn't. It. But definitely when it comes to clay, absolutely cause simple is or I mean yeah no, I just made really simple that little is like pinch pots. Okay, but you just, it's just a bit of technique you need with it. Yeah, but the yeah, I've made the boys each one for various things that they, they both have their brodies, like gotta obsession with crystals. So I've made him one that's big enough to keep certain crystals in and made Mason one for his loop earbuds and stuff to keep the the case for that and cool.

6:57 Yeah, but they were like, but they're really, they're just so simple. But they're really lovely. Like they're nice. So I can't wait to see them finish. I wanted to do it. Trust me, it's just therapeutic, the actual approach. Really, it was just the, it was just, yeah, the best couple of hours. It really was. Oh, that's so nice. So wholesome mix. I know. What is that? Was wine involved? No, but I'm planning on doing that for our breakup actually for the end of year. I'm like, oh sweet, it was actually a fair one called like, was it called Merlo and mud, Mud and Merlo.

7:25 Yeah, like, I mean, I mean, you had me. You had me at Merlo, actually, that's a great idea. Yeah. So I think that's I'm totally obsessed. Now done all right, happy with that. Lock it in. Lock it in, Eddie. Absolutely. All right. I've got a few. I've actually got quite a few shout outs this week because we've had that little bit of a break and I think as a result of that we've had lots of Patreons join us. I haven't. Been mad so it's. Thanks to everybody who's signed up first of all to Nicole Murrell, Stacy, Nikki, Egan, Lane Appleby, Leanne Robinson, Michelle Vell Beck, Hannah Knoll, Bree, Alexandra Griffith and Anna from Sweden, Sweden.

8:12 So thank you to everybody for joining us. It really it really, really, really means a lot. Every time that ping comes up on my phone to say that somebody's joined us, I get a little like flutter, like it just really, I can't tell you how much we appreciate it the. Fact that people are willing to like literally put their good hard earned money across like to go like we want to support them. It's just incredibly. It's very humbling. Very humbling, yeah. It's mad. I'm like, it really motivates us like to get, you know, keep putting this out because people are clearly into it.

8:43 Whichever I I keep questioning myself on that. No I clearly this is working. It's working. We'll keep going with. It going like you guys want it. We'll we're there and like and Patreon's we're getting more involved and actively over there now that we're you know, coming. We're only new to this yes, and I have to say like I'm still working out even how it all functions and where the comments come in and then how to keep track of it all. So I mean we're, we're, you know, we're going to build up what we do in there and we've already been planning a little bit more of what we what we will present over there and some got some great fun things I think coming.

9:14 Yeah. Do you say? Yeah, it'll be fun. It's. Going to get great, so come and join us. If you'd like, that'll be great. We also have some really great comments on insta DMS we had. We actually had 10 PM sisters and a country mum again a couple of times over the last month or so, you know, tag us in their stories and get, you know, recommend us to other people. So thanks for that guys. And to Sherry, Hope Hennessy, gorgeous comment to us. Thank you. And then we had a comment from Katherine W, 66, from Germany, who found us because she was looking for an English language podcast to learn English.

9:52 Wear that one for you. Just don't don't necessarily copy all our work or do or do well. If you wanna be the cool kid. Having having said that though, an Australian accent's quite an acquired taste, so if you learn based. On other words around and I don't know. So if you, yeah, if you're speaking to anybody who's not Australian and you say something that and they kind of give you a weird look, you'll know that must be an Australianism, yeah. Oh my gosh, we can teach all sorts of things. It was really funny, actually.

10:25 When we're in South Korea, just really quickly, not a lot of English is spoken there. Yeah. Oh, the younger people, yes. But, you know, restaurants and stuff, there's not sometimes not a lot of people who speak English necessarily. Yeah. And I so it really made me conscious when I heard English. Yeah. What it sounds like. Do you know what I mean? I do. And, you know, so there are a lot of American. Well, a lot of the English accents that we heard were American accents. Yeah. Or that's a certain type of.

10:55 Sound. It's hard. It can. It's a very harsh kind of sound, especially against Korean. Absolutely. But then I'm like, I just feel like we against Korean or against any other language. It just sounds so bogan. I'll never forget a moment where I thought I was doing the right thing and I was in France and I said silver plays, you know? Yeah, civil play and. The person looked at me and in a French accent, which is the weirdest thing ever to then try and do an Aussie accent. Yeah came back at me and just went oh what silver plate mate?

11:29 And I'm like. I'm like dude, was it that obvious? I was like, I thought it was so good. Picked it immediately. Yeah. And I'm like, Oh my God, like. Okay, shame on me. The French hate it when you butcher their accent too though. He was really nice about it. He was we was having a joke with me, but the same time I'm like. What? I did was trying really hard when when I was a kid. We lived in the States for a little while and obviously we had still had Australian accents, although when we came back to Australia, everyone thought we had American accents.

12:00 Anyway, it was a mishmash of whatever, but I remember my brother and I was standing in the line at A, at a, I don't know, we were getting buying something and we were talking to one another. And this woman behind us goes, excuse me, are you speaking German? Yeah, and we were like. No, no, we're actually speaking English. So I'm like, yeah, it's, it's a the Australian accents are very particular type. Yeah, but it's basically Americans don't really get that there's really beyond themselves. Not much.

12:28 So I mean, no offense for the Americans who, you know, listen to us. I know we do have a few, but yeah. So they they don't pick up the accents as much, I don't reckon. And also I've had actually legitimately an American say to me when they said, oh, where are you from? And I'm like, oh, Australia. And they're like, oh, yeah, of course. Like, you know, I mean Austria, you know, like and I'm like, no, no, Australia. And like, it's not until you say to them things like the one with the the Kangaroos, yeah, that they register sometimes, yeah.

12:54 Yeah. All right. Let's get into today's case. Yes, well, because this is a huge case. It's a big one. And this is something that's, I mean, it's still in the media now. It is so it will be for I think for a. Very long, a very, very long time. It's sort of like almost one of those cases that has defined our era in a way, because there's so much about it and so much nuance to it. And look, I don't even think we're going to be able to cover everything today because there will be stuff. Oh, we will, for sure.

13:20 Yeah. But we're today talking about the Karen Reid case, and it is only ever referred to as the Karen Reid case whenever you. Alone. Poor John O'Keefe, the person who? Actually died in this but anyway so that's what we're talking about today it is fascinating there are so many characters involved it's pretty complex yeah so we're gonna do our best to kind of keep everything on track we'll. Try and narrow down the amount of people we talk about a little bit. So we'll try and chill that, keep that chill, but as best we can.

13:50 And yeah, yeah. I mean, you have to introduce certain characters because they're so pertinent to to what happens. We will refer to most people by their first and second names because we have a lot of same first names, yeah. And then science names same surnames. Yeah, a lot of Brian's, a lot of. Brian's too many Brian's It's my head in, we get. To Massachusetts, I guess that's what we get, is Brian. Oh, God, we do the Boston accent again. No. Oh. My God, no, we can't. We can't. But it is such a particular Speaking of accents, that is such a particular accent.

14:21 And yeah, I mean, obviously having researched this, we've been listening to a lot of Bostonian accents. What's? In there even where they I mean, I find that really interesting that yeah, Boston, if you're we're actually talking in Canton, which is South sort of I think in Massachusetts still, but in it's further South than Boston and the accent isn't as intense at all like it's. But they've still got that twang, yeah? But it's it's not quite the same, is it? Like it's really. Oh, it's interesting How, Yeah.

14:46 I mean, I don't know. Do they hear it like the difference? I don't. Know surely they do. Surely. Yeah. Like it's it's a very particular accent. Yeah. You know, let's get into it. So Karen A Reed was born on the 26th of February 1980 in Blacksburg, VA, near the border of West Virginia and not too far from North Carolina. Mm hmm. She when she was a child, she moved from Virginia to Taunton, MA with her parents and her. She had a brother and a sister and they basically lived in a really nice little area.

15:19 They lived in a court in a cul-de-sac and lived a very sort of idyllic childhood. Mm hmm. She went to the local high school and she also finished off, I believe her high schooling at a Catholic like semi private high school. She was apparently quite a good student, a standout like some of her teachers said. She was a real standout. She was very academic and very focused at school, and she was amazing at the piano. Apparently she was such a such a prolific piano player. Wow. Yeah. So that's just a little bit about her very early childhood.

15:58 After high school, she enrolled at Bentley University at the private Business School there in Waltham, MA. And while she was there, she earned a bachelor's and a master's degree in finance. And then so after after sort of doing that, she actually then became an adjunct professor at that university and would teach there as part of one of her jobs, I guess. And then her other job was working in the finance sector. Yeah. So she had a very lucrative career. I think she's very well off in terms of what she was able to afford.

16:38 She was never married and never had children of her own. Didn't really have any interest in that. She was very career driven. Yeah, yeah. And happy to not have kids, yeah. Yeah, that's it. So I guess the other main player in this story or in this event, yeah, Yeah. Was John O'Keefe. He was born on the 8th of December in 1975. So he was five years older than Karen and he was a Boston police officer. Now, he had a bit of AI guess, a tragic sort of later life in terms of closer towards when he ended up passing.

17:14 But again, I think he had a very typical Bostonian upbringing. There was nothing sort of stand out there. His parents, you know, brought up now what siblings did he have? Had a brother and a sister. He had a brother and a sister as. Oh, yes, of course. Yeah. And unfortunately, his sister actually passed away. She and her husband had two children, a son and a daughter. This will become relevant. Yeah. And she passed away. And then literally three months later, the husband passed away of a heart attack.

17:44 Broken heart maybe? It must have been like 3 months later, those poor children. So that left the so John's niece and nephew, yeah, completely orphaned. So John actually took them on and adopted them. Well, he was. There wasn't really a plan in place for like that. And he was incredibly close to his sister. Yeah. And people sort of say that, you know, when he passed, he was just like, well, I'm taking the kids, apparently. Even when she passed he was like he changed his work schedule to be able to help out his brother-in-law in raising the kids.

18:18 Like he really stepped up. Yeah, he really was he was connected to them from a very young age. It like because I say his and his sister had such a close relationship that he was just part of their lives a lot anyway. And then when she fell, I'll he really, he stepped in there and then and then passed when she after she passed. But yeah, when, when he, when he, when their father passed away as well, He was like, well, that's it. I'm, I'm gonna take the kids. I'm gonna, you know, and, and obviously had his support of his brother and his, his parents as well to, you know, help him out with that.

18:45 But he was like, there's no question here. It's what I'm gonna do. And again, changed his work work. So he went and he requested to have a desk job because that was safer for him because he didn't want these kids to have to be impacted again and worry about something else happening, somebody significant again in their life. So what a kind, you know, what a kind uncle. And apparently he was a Funkle. Yeah. You know, my brother thinks he's a Funkle. He is, but. And apparently he was. Have you seen any of the Tik Toks they did together?

19:18 Oh, no. Oh, my God. You can go and just see them. Check it out. Yeah, go and check it out because it is. They are actually so funny. And he instigates a lot of them. Yeah. And they're like, there's one that that I saw a couple of times when I was looking this stuff up. Yeah. And it's John with his arms behind his back. And then his nephew is pretending. To be his arm, actually. And things like that, like, it's very, very funny. And you can just see that the kids and, hey, they're so relaxed with each other.

19:46 Yeah. They're comfortable in each other's presence. Like those kids have been through so much trauma and to have the support of their uncle who obviously loved them just as much as a parent would. Yes, I think lucky those kids at that time. It's probably also worth noting that John. One never had children of his own either. No. So they were it for him. Yeah. And they really were. Yeah, they were. They were his world. He was. So committed to them. Yeah, so John and and Karen first crossed paths fairly early on.

20:15 They crossed paths originally in 2004. They were date, they did date briefly at this time. So this is pre, you know, he's potentially than the kids being born, I think, let alone, you know, having him having them as as his. Oh well and truly. Yeah, so, yeah, but he but so Karen was, they were dating briefly, but she ended up getting for work a role over in Ireland. So it was, she said that at the time it was just, it wasn't even a foregone. It wasn't even like a question. She was gonna go. They just broke up.

20:41 Like it was not. And it was amicable in that sense of like there was no argument that they were like, you know, splitting up. It was just, well, my job's in Ireland. I've gotta go. OK, so this is over. So yeah, she went to Ireland. I think she spent like a year over there, came back and yeah, and both of them just moved on with their lives. It wasn't any, wasn't nothing. No animosity or anything. Just a blip in, you know, obviously dating life and. Things like that. That's it. No issue. But then again, once we hit the pandemic in 2020, people at home bored.

21:10 And there's John. What do you do? What do you do? John was single, he had these two kids that he was raising, but still, you know, a voice obviously who doesn't want someone in their life, especially when you're home alone, like kind of stuff. He actually put out on Facebook messages to a number of contact, ex girlfriends and contacts and just so happened that Karen was one of them that he reached out to. So I mean, you know, play in the field. Very much so. And Karen responded. You know, so they started talking and that sort of sparked back a bit of a relationship, so.

21:40 Well, she said as well at that time because she was single and she was living on her own. Yeah, she was seeking companionship as well. So like, this was a mutually beneficial thing. And look, as you said, there was no animosity towards each other because when they broke up. So she was curious, like. And she actually said to him like, oh, I see you've got two kids. And he explained that situation. She was like, my God, what an amazing guy. So that indeed him to her as well. And yeah, that kind of got things moving along again.

22:12 Yeah. So the relationship started from that, from obviously living in isolation, sort of communicating, but then built from there. But the like, relationship wasn't perfect, you know, but not no relationship is like, let's be honest, they would argue in things, but the thing that they would argue the most over was the kids. And it wasn't was not a situation of, you know, her not wanting the kids around. She actually became quite close to the kids. And the biggest thing that argue over was the fact that John was the parent.

22:41 Karen was, I guess Karen was playing well, not even his step parent almost. She was like she enjoyed their company and enjoyed doing things with them that she was more like the fun auntie. Yeah, right. No, that does not. Sound right, You know, in that she would do fun things with them and then he would have to be the bad guy was what was always the issue like? He even sent messages to her to that effect. But yeah, look, I think she was in a pretty tough situation in that way because not only these kids, as we said, had been through the trauma of losing both of their parents.

23:12 Yeah, moving in with their uncle. And even though he was great, that's still a big deal for young children. I think in a way, like he he recognized that in a lot in that he was like, look, I understand these kids have been through a lot and everyone else then treats them too nicely, like in that they've still got to have boundaries. They've still got to, you know, be right, taught the right things. And I get that too. I think he's right. Yeah. So, but at the same time, bringing in some someone else into that relationship is always going to be.

23:39 Complicated, I mean step parenting it. The best of times is really complicated. But Karen would do a lot for them. So if John was working, she'd take them to their sporting events. She would, you know, help out with the bake sales at school. She she was very she was. Really hands on, really involved. They did live separately. They weren't living together, but they would often be at each other's houses so that the kids were, you know, obviously his place was sort of the base, I guess. And she would, but she would come and go from, she wasn't living there permanently.

24:08 She had a right place. Very nice place, very nice. Yeah. So, but I guess that's where they're, they're beyond the Karen Reid, John O'Keefe sort of scenario in their little world. The kids then breached, sort of brought them into this other world where they met Jen McCabe and Oh my God, now I'm going to get what's her, his, his name, her husband. Oh my God, Matt, Matt. Oh. My God, yeah. It's it's hard to keep track of everyone. With Jenna, Matt McCabe, both they had children and they were actually playing with their John O'keefe's niece and their daughter played soccer together.

24:48 So Jen McCabe and Karen became like, quite friendly through going to soccer practice. Yeah, twice a week plus a game. You know, as we all know, you get to know each other. It's how you meet nice mum friends. So, yeah, so they sort of started to get to know each other and became quite friendly and obviously the the link there then a lot of like John O'Keefe being a police officer, Matt McCabe knew many other others that were police officers and they all sort of mixed and mingled around with each other and it's.

25:15 So intertwined. Of each others and had, yeah, had had, you know, mutual friends and all these sorts of things between them. So became this this whole new world, I guess, of other people they were branching out to through them by the kids. Yeah, that's it. Yeah. Yeah, it certainly opened up a new world for especially, I think for Karen, because I, I guess being the police officer that he was, John was already kind of involved with that, with these people in a social sense. Yeah, Karen's then kind of come into that.

25:46 And so she wasn't as closely attached to everyone as as John was, but certainly this which she was expanding sort of her social circle into. Yeah, all of these people. And my God, what a complex web of people that is. And a really interesting group of people, yeah, like when I think of like Boston and Massachusetts in general, I guess, like, you do have an understanding of the sort of lifestyle they lead, I guess. Like this is not unusual. I don't think this group of people. No, I don't know what.

26:17 I mean, that's a fairly standard, yeah. Enjoy a drink. Yeah, I think that's, I don't want to generalize, but I'm going to.

26:28 I think police officers and I feel like maybe even, you know, it may be changing now. And I'm talking 2025 recently now maybe. But even still, I think police officers, you know, they often will debrief at a bar or at a pub or I think. It's been a male world, yeah, and that's kind of been where men have been. Well, I know, I know how to do that. I know our great mate Ron Idols talks about the fact that, you know, something shit had happened at work. Yeah, and you wouldn't talk about it. You'd just go and have a couple of beers at the pub and move on with it sort of thing.

27:01 So you know. Isn't actually therapy people? Oh, no, no, no, no, no. We're not suggesting by any means that it is. So look, there's healthier ways to deal with it, that's for sure. And Ron certainly says that, you know, he's a big advocate for, you know, positive mental health access for police officers and other emergency respondents. However, you know, I think there is a culture of this. And certainly by the sounds of it in Massachusetts, in Boston, it's exactly the same because they bonded and would catch up at these bars all the time.

27:32 This wasn't an what we're going to talk about. This was. Very much a regular. It was regular. It was that day. Night. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So should we talk about are we ready the the day? All right. So basically this was, this all kind of took place on the 28th, 29th of January in 2022. Yeah. So it was an unprecedented weather front was coming in with a Blizzard basically, and the most snow the Boston, Boston had seen in years. Yeah, years and years. I think it was like 8 years or something. They hadn't seen a snow, a snowstorm so significant they were expecting up to 5 feet of snow.

28:15 Like, you think how tall I stand, and that's basically like I'm 5, four. Yeah. It's like that much snow. Yeah. In a snow, in a storm to come, you can't even imagine. It from it, I mean living in a country where that's just not we struggle to get snow on our snow fields. Yeah. So I mean, I, I always, always relate this to the fact of like people in Australia, depending on where you live, usually Melbourne where we are get sort of considered like, you know, oh, it's a freezing in Melbourne, it's so cold in Melbourne.

28:41 We sort of get shat on a bit by every other state of like, you know, that we, we live in. Because every other other state has beautiful sunshine. Sunshine of the Year. 24/7 right, but because we get the odd, you know, grey overcast day like we're. The more than the odd one. More than the old one, but. And we get Four Seasons in a day. Yeah, But not only that, like, people do complain, you know, it's cold. We don't know what cold is. I've got no idea you. Know yes we get an 8° day you know we get up in the morning you're driving to work and it gets to -1 oh like that's the worst thing in the world that's.

29:11 Literally the coldest again. Lately, like that's, that's that's a balmy day some for some people. And -1 So we do not live in a cold part of the world. Yeah. We don't even know what that. I think, I think the night that this incident took place, it was something like -22° yeah. Celsius, Celsius or Fahrenheit, Celsius, Celsius. Wow. I think it crosses over at -4 Oh, yeah, you're right. So it'd be pretty serious. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Like it's that's, that's bloody cold. Yeah. Are they not really wearing much?

29:42 No. And this. Is what's closed my mind like I mean, but I know having, you know, I was in the States, I was in Washington for a while. And when you go into an establishment, it is hot. Yeah, they're well, so you have to like take every layer and everything off and you basically can wear, you know, T-shirt and jeans inside it, so. But you take extra clothing of. Course. Absolutely, Yeah. These guys don't seem to do that. Like, yeah, whereas, I mean to me, yeah. But then. I'm like, do they have better high tech clothes that you know, they're not taking the bulky jackets Because I don't know.

30:13 I don't know. They've, well, no, I'd say no. What occurs here? Yeah, that's true. Yeah, that's very true. Yeah. All right. So on the night of the 28th of January in 2022, they knew this Blizzard was coming in. So they just. And what basically would mean then is that everyone would be snowed in for a week or so. Yeah. And so they need, you know, they thought, all right, well, let's just have one quick last hurrah down at the at the. Power like knowing that that's what was coming. They were all very.

30:41 Calm and calm. About it and not really worrying too much about. It I just feel like maybe they're like doomsday preppers and they're already sorted to it, you know, and they had the water and the batteries and everything you would need for if this was gonna happen at home and let's just go for it. Yeah, I guess that's maybe what it is, because I know, well, Karen Reed and John had actually had an argument prior to this. And throughout the day we're texting each other about this. But in Karen, the back of Karen's mind was the fact that, yeah, this Blizzard was coming, that she really want to be on her on her own at home.

31:09 So as much as she's having an argument with John, she's like, yeah, but I kind of want to go and stay at John's and be with him. And. And this is, I mean, real relationship entirely to me in that fact of like, yeah, even though I'm fighting with him, I'd rather be with him. Yeah, than be alone. For the town in my own house. So yeah, potentially would be to see each other. For a week or so. But Karen said she couldn't remember whether her dad called her or whether she called her dad right before she ended up going up to and told her dad that that, oh, we've had this fight and I don't know what to do because this storm's coming and I want to go, but he's pissing me off, so I don't really want to go.

31:47 Yeah. And her dad apparently said to her quite gently, I think you should just stay at home. I think just give it some space that week or whatever it'll be is probably a good thing. Yeah. But she said she then decided, got off the phone with him, kind of considered it, and then went, no, I'm gonna go. I'm gonna say, always listen to your dad. Always, always. Because imagine we wouldn't be talking about this if it wasn't for that. Not at all. So shortly after midnight, Karen, John and a group of their friends went to the Waterfall Bar and Grill in Canton.

32:21 Yeah, so they've been at another. Yeah, just across the restaurant. Restaurant bar across the road they'd have and they'd had many drinks there and then moved across to the waterfall. Yeah, because it was open later, Later, OK. And look it from all accounts and certainly the prosecutors say that and there's video evidence that Karen had been partaking in, in drinking certainly throughout the night, I think. At least on camera, they could pick up that she'd had at least nine drinks. Yeah. And like, we don't know whether they were double shots in those drinks.

32:51 Singles, we don't know. And at one stage, she does have a drink and then pours a shot into it. Yeah. And I've heard people say that. So I don't think we have this rule here in Australia. I don't know. I've never. I've never experienced because I don't order more than a double at any point. It would be God no. But yeah, there's a limit of how many you can order. Like you can order a triple, but you can't order a quadruple. OK. So like what people do is order a triple and then and a shot and pull a shot in.

33:20 So we don't know. I guess that makes sense because like if you're thinking responsible service of alcohol, there's probably a limit of how much alcohol you can serve in one drink. Yeah, I know if you're. Providing a shot on the side, I'm the same same. Totally. Well, I know we used to serve a particular drink that was called an attitude adjuster and certainly did adjust your attitude. Oh, what was in it? Contra vodka, Bacardi. Oh, and one other. OH, on a Red Bull. OH, so it must have been triple in it.

33:51 Yeah, we were only allowed to serve people one. Yeah, OK. But there were people who would. Try it. Try again. And we had to call an ambulance 1 so let's just call that. Oh Jesus Christ. Yeah, Oh my God. Stop serving serving them. Yeah, OK. Yeah, yeah, they were pretty. I feel like the Red Bull would tip. Me, if nothing else. Yeah. Because the Red Bull would. Yeah, because that was what got me heart. Goal. Yeah, exactly. Oh yeah, No thanks. Because people would just stay on them. Oh. God, no Yacht.

34:15 Yeah, yeah, Yep. So anyway that so as you said Karen, I think she might have had five drinks at the 1st place and they think 4 at the second, but I think that extra shot thing happened at the 2nd place at the waterfall. And some people look out there, 'cause there's the thing, there's lots of theories on all these shit. Let's like say that. Well, you can. You can. You can find anything that you want to back up your case in. This Oh, I do believe that too. So, yeah. So a lot of people say like, oh, but it could have been water.

34:41 I'm sorry, what water is getting? A lemon or lime, you know, garnish on the side? Swizzled into it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I don't think they're waters. No, no. And the way she was drinking them, too, like you're down to water, you don't sip a water. Yeah. And anyway, she says she didn't even drink her last drink, that she put it in her car and ended up tipping it out or whatever. But yeah, whatever. Yeah, regardless, she's had a fair few. Who bought alcohol limits tend to, you know, support the fact that she had had a number of drinks.

35:08 Absolutely. We'll get to that because I've got it written down exactly what it was. But anyway, we'll get to that in a SEC. So what they decided, I think the waterfall was closing a bit earlier due to this Blizzard that was happening because apparently it was it was coming in. Yeah, yeah, you know, it was a bit earlier than it anticipated. But the waterfall Bar and Grill, like fuck, fuck, we're off, fuck off. We don't want to be stuck hidden here if you're drunk for it yet. So they closed down. And this bit I find bizarre.

35:35 So they're in a group of friends, right? And they all decide to go off to the home of another Boston police officer by the name of Brian Albert. Yeah. And his wife. Brian and Cole Albert. Yeah, so, but John isn't 100% if he and Karen are even invited. Jen McCabe was the one who Matt and Jen McCabe who they knew the most. Yeah, from being there, they invited them. To, but they were in a group. This is what? Doesn't, but, well, let's just clear that a little bit. Jen McCabe is sisters with Nicole Albert.

36:07 Albert. Yeah. So I mean, I would say I could invite anyone to my siblings house. Yeah. I don't think that's inappropriate, you know, like kind of thing. But yeah, they they were a little bit like, oh, we don't know Brian Nicole that well that well. We do on that night. Yeah. But there's also another layer of that that I can kind of come at, that there'd been some between with the Albert's and with John. Yeah. There is a little bit of conflict there. Yeah. So maybe that was a layer of I don't know where they're meant to be going.

36:35 Yeah. OK. Yeah. So they weren't really sure where they were invited, but they were kind of like, oh, well, Jen McCabe did say we're going. So. And obviously they've had that many drinks. They're kind of like, yeah, party. Yeah. But the other element of that being a bit weird too, is that I find it like, so the reason they're saying come back to the Albert's place is because there's a party happening there already, but it's for their, it's their son's birthday. It's his 18th I think. Yeah, I think it was 18th.

36:58 Yeah. Yeah. So this is Brian Junior. Yeah, another Brian. Don't. But don't worry, there's another Brian. Yeah, so he's having a bit of a party at the place at their house anyway, so they're kind of like you come back to ours, as you know, we'll kick on there with the 18. The team who aren't even legal to drink there. No, like they're 21. Like they're legal. Drinking age is 21. Yeah. So, and they're police officers, Yeah, like, OK, anyway. Yeah, there's so much wrong with. That so much. Yeah, I don't know.

37:27 Anyway, so, yeah, they they get in the like this, they all get in their own cars. And this is this is the thing that I just get. Oh my God, they all get in cars and they all drive. And it's apparently just a thing. You just you drive in the back streets around Canton. Drunk. I don't. And these are police officers. Yeah, I know. I just think that's so gross. Oh I really have an issue. Me too. So Karen, and I don't know, Karen was driving. She had driven. Well, for whatever reason, that's what had occurred.

37:55 Yeah, and she drove. Well, I think I think what actually happened was because she was coming from her house, she basically just stopped, picked up John and kept going to the first bar. I think he got there and he because she comes in and they hug and stuff on the. Camera that's. Right. I think she might have met him there. She must have, actually, that is true. Yes. Sorry. Some other way like that. Yeah. Yeah. So no, yeah. So she was driving. So yeah, she gets in her car and John gets in with her and they drive and it's not far, I get that, but it's.

38:21 Still. 7 minute drive or something it's. Far enough to have not driven one off, I just. You shouldn't drive 30 seconds if you're drunk, no. Anyway, go on. Yeah, so they get there and everyone else had got there before them. Like they were inside and there weren't cars out the front, you know, or anything like that of like this big party happening. It was a little bit, you know, what's the deal here? What's going on? So Karen and pulls up and then she's sort of like, oh, I just don't know if we're meant to be here, like maybe maybe let's just go home.

38:49 And so according to her, she John gets out of the car to go. I'll go in, check what the goal is. I'll come back and let you know and then we'll work out whether we're staying or not because obviously this blizzard's rolling in too. Where are you going to park your car on the street? Because I don't think you're allowed to park your cars on the street because of the plows that come through and clear the roads. That's right. So I guess she's probably a little bit. That's obviously another layer of this of like, well, where do I leave my car?

39:12 And, you know, am I blocking someone else in if I pull in their driveway? What do we do here? How long are we going to be like, oh, can I leave the car here? So many things. Yep. And she's really freaking drunk. So he gets out of the car and apparently, according to her, goes in. Well, she didn't see him go. In her story changed on that multiple times, yeah. And her final, final story of it is that she saw him go in, she says. Her initial statement was that she saw him go to the door. Yeah. And then she got out her phone and was like looking at, she hadn't checked her messages or anything or checked her phone all night.

39:48 So she was looking down, checking that. So she didn't actually see him go in. Yeah, which I believe more. I believe that more that that. Makes so much sense to me. Anyone would do that like your IE is going in. Yeah, it suits her story too much to say she saw him going. Yeah, why change it? Believe that. I agree with you on that. Yeah. So according to her anyway, he's out of the car. Yep. She sits there for 10 minutes or so going like. Where the hell again, even again that was like she changed her story on how many minutes she.

40:16 Sat there there are like she they can, they've tracked the car, records of it, OK. And so, yeah, she was parked out the front. She did move her car at one stage, which is someone else did pull up. Yeah. So she moved forward. Yeah. There is evidence of all those sorts of things. OK. But approximately about 10 minutes or so, she's sitting there going like, how long does it take to go in and say, you know, are we coming in or not? So this is her story at this point, I guess, you know, how long does it take to, you know, figure out whether or not we're welcome to come in or not?

40:42 Where are you, John? And look, as I say, their relationship wasn't that great. As much as it looks lovey dovey on like the cameras where they're drinking and they're having like that fun time. There was things that were a bit rocky about their relationship, you know, so she was like a little and there'd been a kiss on the cheek basically of someone prior to this that had upset her with John. So she was like, what the Hell's going on here? What, is there someone here that he doesn't want now me coming in or you know, like, what's he doing?

41:10 She cracks the sheets after 10 minutes of not knowing that where he is and what he's doing and goes fuck, fuck I'm going home. She did try calling him. No. Yes, Sorry. Yeah. On the phone. So she had her mobile phone, he had his. She tried ringing him. He never answered his phone. She sent him a text, a couple of text messages, I think. Where are you? Didn't What's going on? Yeah. So she's like fuck this shit, Yeah. Is this the point where she did the three-point turn to get out of the? Driveway.

41:33 Yeah, well, she wasn't in the driveway. She was on the. Street on the streets. But she had to do AU turn to go back the other way. Yeah, so. She's like, she's gone down the street, backed up the driveway and then gone back the other way. So done a three-point turn to kind of go back out. Yeah. And she's then gone back to John's house because the two, the niece and the nephew, were at home. And while they could be left at home for a little bit, they were young teenagers at the time. And 10 I want to say.

41:56 Yeah, they certainly couldn't be left home alone overnight. So Karen to her, I mean, she wasn't gonna be driving home anyway, but she's gone back to John's house and apparently the niece and nephew had to charge their phones in John's room. Yeah. And so when Karen got back to the house that she noted the kids room. Actually, the niece wasn't in bed yet. The nephew was in bed. God, this is like 1:00. I know. Well, at 12:30, yeah, a bit more accurate. And but her phone was already on the bedside table.

42:28 And she said to the niece, So Karen said to the niece, have you heard from John? And the niece is like, oh, let me go and check. My phone went into John's room. There was nothing there from him. So she basically says, well, I can't get a hold of him. And, you know, I don't know what's going on. And so Karen then rings John's phone again and leaves a voicemail at about 1:00. This is about 1:00 in the morning. And it says you're a fucking loser. Go fuck yourself, John. I fucking hate you. Because she's pissed off that he's basically left the responsibility of the kids to her.

43:02 Yeah. Ditched her, just gone inside and like, yeah, not come out. You know, he'd said he'll come out and get her if it's OK for her to come in. Didn't do any of that. So she's pissed. I get that. I'll be pissed. Totally. She she loses some pretty oh. My God, some of them are So what I mean I. Say lying, the fact that like, you know, yeah, she's, she's drunk. She's adamantly like she is drunk too. So I mean, yeah, the messages are pretty unhinged. Oh yeah. And there's so many of them. So you can hear these messages and stuff.

43:33 And she does, she accuses him of cheating on her, like, you know, all these sorts of things. I I'm here with your, with your kids, you know, and you're, where are you? And you're a fucking someone else. And yeah, yeah, they're pretty outrageous. And, and God, how many were there? There was so many phone calls that she made in that I believe it was like 50. You know what? I had 50 in my mind. Yeah, that sounds about right. Between like, you know, 1230 and like 4:00 AM or something. Yeah, there's something like 50 odd miss phone calls to John's phone.

44:01 So pretty crazy. Like that's full on. I shouldn't say the word crazy. I don't like using that word for that. But yeah, that's full on. I don't know if I would be calling that person that many times even if I was that pissed with them. I don't know, but that's drunk behavior I guess, isn't? It. Yeah. Well, that's it. There's the added sort of element of alcohol there. Yeah. Oh my God. Anyway, so as you said, she's calling basically between 1:00 and 4/30, 5:00 in the morning. She mustn't have. Slept.

44:29 No, she doesn't. She'd go to sleep. Sleep. Sleep. She did Sleep. How? Did you, How did she manage to get 50 phone calls in and a nap in that time? In four hours, basically, Yeah. That's incredible. Yeah. But basically. So at 423, John's niece called Jennifer McCabe. So now remembering Jennifer McCabe is Brian Albert, the house owner. That's his sister-in-law. Yeah. It's hard to keep this all, but she was a friend of John's, and she was the mum of John's niece's best friend, basically. Yeah. So I guess, yeah, that stands to reason that they couldn't find John.

45:09 The niece kind of knew that they were out there. Jen was there, and she's like, let me call her and see what she knows. And Karen, apparently, according to the niece's testimony anyway, at this point, was really distraught. Really. Like, I can't believe he hasn't come angry more than anything, really upset with him. She's got her own trauma. Yeah. Yeah. On this phone call, McCabe's testimony is that she could hear Karen in the background basically screaming. John didn't come home. We had a fight.

45:36 What am I going to do? I need to find him. I don't know where he is. And she was really sort of agitated. Agitated. And then Jennifer decides to come over to John's house, where Karen and the niece are. They get in the car and then this other woman, what's her name? Kerry. Kerry. How did she even come into the picture? Yeah, because she wasn't there on the night. No, she. Wasn't there on the night but she just appears in the car when they go looking for John. I never. Really got out of that friendship group, but she wasn't there on the night.

46:06 Yeah. So did Jen call her to say hey, yes, OK, I didn't. Realize that I think no, actually, maybe Karen did. Read Did Karen might have rung her instead of you seeing him or something. OK, OK. Oh, that's weird. I just didn't understand how she kind of came. Into the. Picture Yeah. Anyway, the four of them have gotten in the car and gone looking for John 3 Three. Yeah, just three of them. Oh, the niece didn't get in the car. Oh, OK. And apparently, according to Jen McCabe, in the car, Karen says something along the lines of what if he's dead?

46:38 What if a plow hit him? I don't remember anything from last night. We drank so much. I don't remember anything. Yeah. OK. Interesting, interesting, interesting. Sorry. They then decide to obviously go over to Brian Albert's house because. Interestingly, it's weird. They, they come to his place and then they, I think they go to Jen McKay. They go somewhere else because basically they're like looking for him in places where and Jen Karen keeps repeating going. The last place I saw him was at the Albert's.

47:11 34 Fairview Dr. Yeah, where, you know, where we were, the Albert's. So we need to go there. And for some reason Jen McCabe takes her elsewhere to look for him. So she's like, no, we need to go there. We need to go to their place at the Albert's, you know. So eventually they do go to the Albert's. Now they pull up at the Alberts and apparently immediately Karen's like, Oh my God, there he is, I can see him. There he is in the snow. Now. Jen McCabe and Kerry both testify that they couldn't see anything.

47:39 It was a mount. Of snow but Karen saw immediately there's John and it wasn't until they got out of the car and things going what on earth is she talking about? They looked and went Oh my God as she they find him laying in the snow, like buried under a layer of snow. And I'm not talking like a little bit of snow. There's a lot of snow. And it is, I mean, look, it's it's dark at this point. It's still early, very early in the morning. Not only that, the Blizzard is, it is active. Yeah, like it's. Snowing, Snowing.

48:10 Hard. Yeah. And I look at them on these, the clips, because you've got video footage from like police Cam, body cams, but also cars. Yeah. And the car footage, dash Cam footage, you watch them all. They're not wearing that much. I know. It fools me how they're all like fairly cat like, not casual dress that's wrong, like, but just lightly clothed in this. You can see the snow coming, pelting down. It's must be absolutely freezing. Yeah, Yeah. So it's insane, but they So they get out of the car and yet she finds him.

48:41 Jen McCabe is the one who gets onto the 911 phone call and she calls for help. Karen goes straight to John and she, you know, clears the snow and stuff and she's like, she tries to give him CPR. She. Takes off her jacket and tries to warm him up. Yeah. With her clothing, actually. Sorry. She takes off her jacket and his jacket and tries to get use her body warmth to make him warm. Yeah. Which, I mean, is kind of futile given that he's in a mound of snow, but. You should do it. You gotta yeah. Oh, you would do anything?

49:11 Yeah. Karen's panicking. She's like beside herself. She's hysterical. Multiple people call 9/1 one. Very interesting though what the homeowners do and don't do. Yeah, see, I think people are going to get annoyed with me. I actually can understand that they didn't come out. When you look at that Blizzard and the noise that that Blizzard is like there was a wind gushing. There was like, right, they've been drinking the night before. They're heavy sleeping. I actually can in a world understand them not hearing what was going on out there.

49:49 When you watch the dashcam footage, yeah, you can hear how loud that. That is true and. I think that, you know, closed windows, closed doors, they're, they're locked in for the, you know what I mean? Like that. It's not like there's a. Window open somewhere. They kind of bunkered down a little. I'm like, why didn't Jen go inside to her sister and be like, Oh my God, we've just found someone potentially dead out the front? Yeah, I, yes, I do. I agree with that. I do agree with that, but I can understand Brian and Nicole going we didn't hear anything the other side of that is so.

50:19 I think that's giving them a big benefit of the doubt. But anyway. Well, we're probably going to have issues with lots of things. But Brian, as he said on this, he testified that when he did realize what was stuff going on outside now, he still didn't come out the front. Now, he says that that is because as a police officer, he wasn't going to get himself involved in it, as in he had no involvement in what was happening and so therefore he didn't come out. That's. Bullshit because he did have involvement, it was happening at his house.

50:54 This. Is where, and I do have an issue with that as well. And look, poor police work is a whole lot of that completely. And so, yeah, I agree. But According to him and his testimony, that is what procedure would be for a police officer in a scenario like that. Take, take it as you will. That's what he's that's what he stands on. That's what he says. Yeah, as a human, I couldn't. No, no, no. And you know, I guess at some point, I don't know, your humanity almost has to take over, especially because he wasn't on duty.

51:32 It's not like he was called to a scene that happened to be at his house. You know, in, in a world like this, it shouldn't be investigated by the local police if he's, if there are police officers involved. So I actually don't buy that. I, I, I actually can't come at any of that. So yeah, anyway, let's keep, let's keep moving on because there's a lot of there's conjecture. Too much, Yeah, Yeah. Where are we at? So we've got so obviously the first responders arrive. And first of all, there's actually a police officer not too far away that actually flagged down and they so he comes to help them now.

52:07 So he ends up being someone though, who has very strong connections to the family, to the Albert's particularly. So he does in in the end excuse himself from the investigation of this because he does know the effect know the family really well. But the problem is the Albert's have connections to fucking everyone in the police everyone. So I I don't know what on what level they needed to find someone who wasn't, But unfortunately that's not what happened. But the original police officer is a no. Well, he tried to provide some first aid and he coordinated a lot of the.

52:38 Emergency on the immediate ground. In the immediate, yeah, but then, yeah, he recused himself. Which is the right? Thing the right. Yeah, absolutely. But yeah, so he was there and obviously then we had fire brigade arrived, We have ambulance officers arrived. There's a lot of people on this scene, a lot of people trudging through that scene, you know, and rightly so. I mean, it's somewhat sometimes incredibly hard to to preserve a scene when you need to because Johnny's not dead. So first priority is his life and getting him.

53:05 And at this point, who knows what has gone on here? Yep, there's to them, You know, look, there's conjecture around this. So according to many people on the day, on the night morning of Karen Reed stated numerous times I hit him, I hit him, I hit him. Or did she say did I hit him, Did I hit him? Could I have hit him? Literally, the prosecution says I hit him, I hit him, I hit him. The defense says did I hit him? Did I hit him? Could I have hit him? Now there are many people who are on that scene who say she said I. Hit him, I hit him, I hit him.

53:44 So how many people does it take to make a conspiracy and how many people can you get involved in a conspiracy? Yeah, is a question. Yeah, fair. I have for many. Yeah, fair. And how easy is it to influence someone if you keep saying to such a people that were there on the night, did you hear us say I hit him, I hit him, I hit him and then all of a sudden in your mind it changes? Yep. What was said? Yep. Without it actually being involved in the conspiracy. Yep. I can come at all of those. Me too SO.

54:12 That one, I'm a little bit same. I don't know how to take that same. I can fully understand in in a in a realm of worlds going like, oh, sorry, Karen, being like I was drunk last night. I don't really remember what happened. Oh my God, did I do this? Did I hit him? Like what the I can understand that being a thought process and that feels very natural for me to have to hear her maybe say that. However, you don't see it on camera. There is dashboard footage of her running around like a chicken, like a yeah, yeah, look.

54:42 And I feel like when I watch that, to be honest, she is reacting in a way that I can understand. Yeah, but some people say that they're like, oh, she wasn't acting like she's. Over the top. Or something. But I might know if my she's. But also, if that was my partner, I think I would be reacting in exactly the same way as I would be so like. I don't see anything unusual. About she's so heightened. And yes, of course you would be. You've just found your significant other literally on death's door like.

55:08 He is. Moments away from death. Yeah, yeah. I I don't have any issue with how she reacted on that. Nor do I. On that morning, I really don't I don't know a lot of people do like that were there seem to, but I feel like that was quite judgmental agree of someone going through yeah, you don't know what you mean. I would be like however you react in that moment seems reasonable. The only thing I wouldn't handle is if you go, oh, he might be dead. That's about the most. Yeah, that's about where I'd go.

55:35 Oh, wow. I draw the line at that. And it was quite the opposite to that reaction. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, so they obviously they very fairly quickly, because they see how how much he's deteriorating very quickly, get him on a stretcher, they get him to an ambulance and they take John to hospital and unfortunately he does pass away. Now, the police officers on the scene do do their best to collect some sort of scene. Now, lots of issues with this. Oh, massive at the scene. Obviously, we've got snow still falling, let alone what has actually fallen.

56:10 So it's very difficult. It's dark still, however. So they start collecting evidence from the scene because they don't even know if this is this is a scene, but you know. They should know that they need to treat it that way until they know differently. Absolutely, they do. And they do. They do. Well, they don't. They do they. Don't as in like it's poor policing but they know they've got to collect fucking. Poor and what do they do? They collected into red solo cups. Like the red plastic cups. The police station is literally 5 minutes down the road where they could go and get proper evidence bags.

56:40 Send the bloody lackey off. Send the recruit off to go and do that. Or you preserve that That what potential crime scene? Instead, they went to a neighbour's house. Yeah, and got solo which? Is another police officer, by the way? Yeah, of course. So they seem to be everywhere. How many police officers do you need? One St. they grab, you know, clean new, still sealed in their packet, whatever solo Reds, these red solo cups that everyone knows from parties in America. That's just like what you do.

57:08 They collect snow like with blood, the blood in the in the in the snow in these cups and then put that in a brown paper bag sitting in these this brown paper bag like. It's so fucking bizarre. Really really odd. Like they don't find a lot at the scene at that point in time. No, because a lot of them are potentially buried in the snow. Like they don't know what's hidden under there. It'd be finding a needle in a haystack. Yeah. And what, So what they do do though at that point is they get out a leaf blower and to sort of like, you know, which I don't think is too bad of an idea to be honest.

57:38 I know the defence had a real issue with that. Yeah, brought that up. But I don't think a leaf blower is too much. Out I feel like the defence are like, oh, we can use this to our advantage look like. There's much of that, Yeah, much of that. So the leaf blower comes out and they sort of blow away a bit of the scene of like, you know, using that to try and find what other evidence might be there. The other thing I will say they found on the night, obviously it was under John's body was his mobile phone.

58:02 So yeah, he was lying on top of it. With the 50 odd missed calls and several text messages. Yeah, many multiples of text. Messages. Many, many yeah. Oh gosh. And then the bot dials. Yeah. So that's all they find at that point in time. But they do continue searching throughout that day.

58:26 This is where it all gets very complicated. It does so quite early on. They did. The police officers who were on the scene decide that this looks like he's been hit by a car. There's a couple of reasons they decide that. The main reason being he was found with only one shoe. The other shoe they could even find at this point in time, which is very much what happens. And this is absolutely research back. Proven. Proven thing when you get hit by a car, you come out of your shoes. So that is a very good, good indicator that there's been a hit here from the car, so.

59:05 Some significant impact of some kind. Yes, not because it could be an explosion, you know, Yeah, yeah. But thinking in this in this scenario that being most likely to be a car looks like this could be what it and and his injuries of like his impact at the time they believed to be car injury of like being hit. So they do actually on, at approximately 4:00 PM in the in the afternoon, they go and they seize Karen's car when the police officers arrived to do that. Now let's say who's on scene at this point is a man by the name of Proctor.

59:40 He becomes, he is the lead on this, the lead investigator on this. So Proctor is a very significant character. Oh yeah, yeah. And an interesting one too. Oh. Yeah. So he goes to Karen Reed's house to seize this vehicle, and when he does, he does note that there is a cracked tail light. That's the only words that he used. Yes, he he didn't say broken. No, he said cracked tail light. It's very important. Yep, so goes to her and he, they seize the car and they do arrest and charge her with at that point manslaughter with a vehicle and leaving the scene.

1:00:25 So this is very quickly after all of this that that occurs so that from that point the car is seized and it's taken to what they call the Sally port, which is like an evidence sort of garage where they put the car and they can then have their experts and for those that can't see me, I put that in inverted. They're experts to look over this vehicle and see what evidence they can find from this car as to whether or not this was potentially involved in this incident. Yeah. Can I just interject here, It's it's another thing that I think worth noting at this point to you is that there aren't many homicides or murders in Canton.

1:01:04 Yes, it's not, it's not really the norm there. So in terms of experience of the this police force in dealing with things like that, it's not really their bread and butter. I don't know that they'd call them experienced almost. Well, no, that's that's that is actually a really fake. Oh man, there's a lot of stuff in this that with the police. Oh, so many things. And you're just like, oh, I'm not even a police officer and I know you not to do that, you know, just some common sense shit. Holy. Fucking hell, there's a lot wrong with this.

1:01:35 A lot wrong with this. And I mean, I don't know if I should be really honest at this point in time. Fuck it. Let's do it. Do it. I believe she did it. OK. What are your thoughts? Do you?

1:01:52 I'm so undecided. Yep. So I can absolutely see why you say that. Yeah. And at various times in researching this. So before I was researching this, you know, in what I thought I knew, Yep, I thought she was guilty. I was very much in the camp of, Oh my God, this is a conspiracy and you've been framed and. Like oh, OK. Yeah, yeah, very much so. OK. But see in research. Completely flipped. Yeah, okay, so in researching it though, I can also see things now from the other side. Yeah. And I'm like, I'm actually so undecided and I don't even know how the.

1:02:27 Well, I can understand why the first jury ended up where they ended up, but I just. But I don't see how I'm getting really far ahead. I'll do. I'll talk about it at. The end, yeah, we can come back to all of the, I guess the outcome of it like, but I think just an ease of talking this next bit. Yeah, because once we start getting into the evidence that's there and what the prosecution and defence put forward on their cases. To me, that evidence is overwhelming in one. Direction and I think that's that was definitely a defence tactic.

1:02:56 Yes. Bamboozle them absolutely so much shit. Absolutely. And God, there's a so much with this, yeah, so much that comes in with this. And I mean, yeah. All right, let's let's. My mind boggles. Oh, I know, right? Anyway, keep going with what you were on about. OK, where are we up to? So, all right, so I've got the car. Yeah, in the Sally port. Yeah, this Proctor is on the case now. Again, he is problematic to in the least say it, to say the least. Would you go as far as to say he's a piece of shit?

1:03:31 I would 100% say he's a piece of shit, very much so. Yeah, agreed. Oh. God, yeah. So there's again this night we have. All the witnesses to this are drunk people. Yep. And I'm talking all the way down to the youngest of people that were involved in this. Yeah, there's no one that wasn't drinking in this, you know, there's no sober person with. A clear vision of what had happened that night. Yeah. So let's really start that with that, I guess that we're never going to get full accurate stories with it.

1:04:08 Yeah. And I also want to say I feel like sometimes we know too much as in these this day and age, we always talk about, you know, you never get away with a with a murder or anything these days because we have so many things as we have video footage of things we have. CCTV everywhere we've. Got dash cams, DNA evidence and scientific, you know, ways of working things out. We have Apple phones and things like that with all their devices and what they can produce. And that's exactly what this case brings, brings an element of all of those things to it.

1:04:36 And in the end we have confusion. Yeah, because there is. But I think I also think so much, and this was a defence tactic, as you were saying, the defence entered a lot of stuff into evidence which the judge allowed, which I found really interesting that I don't think are even relevant to this case. Yeah. And so I think it did muddy the waters a lot. And, I mean, it did what they wanted it to do. Yeah, to be honest. Well. On the topic of the judge, again, she shouldn't have been on the no, no, So she had a conflict of interest in this case.

1:05:08 We didn't declare. It no and didn't declare that. So she actually had dealings with the Albert's in another case. So she should not have been the judge. And look, many people don't like her and think that she was very much for the prosecution and that she has a lot of lot of stuff out there about that. And I do agree that there was a lot of things that she didn't allow the defence to do on say, but there's also a lot of things that she did and I. And the things that she did allow blew my mind. And the things she didn't allow was like, why I like the end there didn't seem to be good.

1:05:39 Reason for my end decision with her, which is like you just shit at your job. Yeah, I don't like well, easily influenced. Maybe, I don't know. Yep. Yeah, yeah. Sorry, which is sorry not what you want to. Judge. Oh God, that's not a judge. Yeah. So let's, I don't know we're even start with this from now on. So obviously, I guess we get to a point where so Karen has been charged with manslaughter at this point. So in saying that, manslaughter meaning that she has unintentionally hit him, which has caused his death, and then she's left the scene.

1:06:12 Yeah. So basically at first the idea is that she is potentially so drunk she's reversed her car into him, not even knowing she's done it and driven off. Yeah. OK. That I actually can come out. Yep, same. But this gets taken to a grand jury and looked at, and from that grand jury they make the decision to indict her for second degree murder. Which I think basically like manslaughter in Australia. Yeah, but it comes with a much higher risk of penalty in terms of jail time, all those sorts of things.

1:06:47 It does have another layer. So as much as it's, I think this is where the tipping point is of where then this gets crazy because what the defense then are really saying is potentially she intentionally knocked him with the car and drove off. There's that lift from having no idea you did it to intentionally driving off. That's right. Because she's so that what did the prosecution basically are claiming in the end is that maybe unintentionally she hit him with the car, but she was like, no, fuck him.

1:07:19 I'm so angry with him. I'm going to drive off and leave him, right. So yes, not realizing that she's potentially killed him, but having an understanding that she's hitting with the car. Now, do you think that if they'd left it at that, this would have made a very this would have been a very different thing, and we probably wouldn't actually even be talking about it now. Really. Really, Really. Same. I literally think that if it was that she was being charged with an unintentional drunk situation.

1:07:46 Yep. You've hit someone. You didn't even know You hit them. He died. Manslaughter is what you get. Yeah, like, kind of thing. I don't think we'd hear about this. I really think that that was the tipping point. Same. Because yes, that that scare for her has meant that she has involved other lawyers. Yes, and that's where this has gone. It's gone to. A circus. It's gone to a circus. It's turned this into a circus. Yeah. Now the other thing I guess that she probably had in her mind, and this would have.

1:08:13 I think if I were her, I would have thought exactly the same way. She was drunk. Yes. So that makes her culpable. Yeah. You know, So that adds another layer to it as well. So I can kind of understand where she was coming from in trying to get the best of the best or what she thought was the best of the best to represent her. And really? And everyone should, if you could have, you know, you should get the best lawyer that you can get if you're in the situation like this. Yeah. And look, if I was in the situation she was in or in any other, Alan Jackson is who I'd want to be my lawyer.

1:08:45 Oh, God, yeah. Because I think he could get anyone out of anything. I know, right? That man can spin, and he can. He's so dramatic in the courtroom. He's very convincing. Yeah. And freaking all over everything like a rash. Absolutely. And he's so he's meticulous. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So you have you watched the documentary with Karen Reed? So you know that bit where they get to the the room that they're gonna set up in? The war room. The war room? Yep. And he's like, Yep, this will be perfect.

1:09:15 Yep, this is exactly what we need. I need this set up here. I need this unpacked here. I need this done here. Like you can just see his method and the way he does things. He's so pedantic, like 100%. Of course you'd want that in your defence attorney. I love where at one point, like where they're coming towards the end of the first trial and they go, oh, we ended up moving down to the the coffee shop because the war room got too crazy it. Was too much too. Busy it was too. It was so overrun with stuff.

1:09:38 I think it would be overwhelmed walking in there because he would have had Everything Everywhere and like mapped out of what he was doing. I mean, even the way he mapped out his closing argument, I. Know that is so impressive. So impressive. Go and watch the documentary people if you want to see it, it's very interesting. And it does give two perspectives. I have to. I mean, it's it's very lean. It's very lean. It leans one's way totally. But they do give you another side of it. That's true. So I did.

1:10:02 I'd appreciate that. That's true because even watching it, I at the time was still, yeah, I'm down for this conspiracy. I've come to this other conclusion further and as I have further deep dive the actual evidence not being influenced by Alan Jackson. Yeah, that's where I'm like, it's his influence that can get you into this conspiracy. And a lot of what you read is based on his, well, what he presented in court. So yes, a lot of the things you read are skewed one way. That is actually very true.

1:10:30 Yeah, Yeah. Because particularly from that first trial, yeah, I mean, I'll have to say the defence counsel was not good. Yeah, they're pretty shit. And I think again as we go back to like an OJ Simpson style thing they thought they had in the bag and they did not. And they didn't try like it felt. That's what it felt like. It felt like they didn't really think they had to try too hard. They didn't. Realize what they're up against. Yeah, I think so. Yeah. Which, yeah. Mistrial was how it should have gone anyway.

1:10:56 Oh, my God. Sorry. Where do we want to start with all this bloody evidence? He starts pulling apart. I think we should start, actually, very early on. OK, let's go with that. All right, so as the he, she, she then gets her lawyers involved, they start getting the evidence that the defense the prosecution sorry are going to present starts obviously they have to share that evidence with. With, yeah, in the discovery, yeah, yeah. In that obviously the, the defense also then go into that and find what they look at and what they're finding.

1:11:28 And when they look at what was given to them by the by the prosecution, they find something that wasn't given to them. Yeah. And this is really the start of it because I think this is where, I mean, well, in the documentary, Alan Jackson says this is where I was like, right, we've got them, that kind of thing. Yeah. There is a Google search that is found that came from Jen McCabe's phone now. There's conjecture. There's conjecture on time. But we'll go with the original timestamp of 2:34 AM. On the morning of the 29th of January 2020.

1:11:58 So prior to John being found, but after Karen Reed has left him at the Albert's correct, there is a Google search. And this is famous for everyone. Yeah, I know. It House. Long to die in cold. Yeah, so she's obviously mistyped. How? And it's so it's House Long to die, to die in cold. Now, this bit of evidence, weirdly enough, it's leaked somewhere. Where does it get leaked to a particular? Again, inverted comments coming out. Expert journalist his name is. Turtle boy, Turtle boy. Oh my God. OK, you think of the word turtle boy, What image comes into your head like a teenager?

1:12:43 No, like a teenager who's like sitting in their little dark layer and with like, I don't know, neon lights all around them, but in a dark room and gaming, gaming computer with like, you know, the perspex on the side of the console or whatever. No, no, no, this bloke is a middle-aged white man. Quite nice looking, quite put together. He's a piece of shit. He's a total fucking piece of shit. Oh my God, what a problematic dude. He's so problematic. Sorry, going through this average like when this like because I was I was in this real time when this is all going out and I'm like turtle boy, he's onto it and I loved it.

1:13:23 Now I know who he is. I'm like oh fuck me. And I'm sorry, but I think Karen Reed and Turtle Boy are having it off EW, he's in love with. Her, He's definitely obsessed in love with her. He's definitely obsessed with her. Yeah. The other thing that I think is really worth noting about why we're even talking about this as well is because Karen is an attractive white middle-aged woman. Yeah. You know, I think if this had happened in a black family or, you know, a different socio economic demographic, I don't think we'd even be talking about this.

1:13:54 So I think that just needs to be said. Yeah. I completely agree. Because she is. She's pretty. Yeah. And people find her really attractive. Turtle Boy definitely finds her very attractive. Definitely. He, he would kiss the ground. She walked. On yeah, and and a lot of it is because I mean, look, and I guess we're part of this now as podcasters, that podcasting has become an an Ave. for people to look at cases that you know and get deep dive into these things and you know, as the public, you know, rather than yeah, investigators and things like that now and turtle boy literally sits in that that realm.

1:14:26 And I think what has happened here is that this is a case that has blown him up. He's become world renowned because of this. Absolutely nobody knew who Turtle Boy was before this and. We've talked about this in terms of some cases where, you know, you find that there is a someone who has been convicted wrongly. Mm hmm. That's a huge thing. That's huge, someone being wrongfully convicted. Absolutely. So you can as a journalist, if you want to call him that, you know, finds that story where you can defend someone who and, you know, and get them out basically from that, you know, that's huge.

1:15:01 That's a big story for for someone to break and to do that. Yeah. So this has been his big break. Some cases shouldn't have that kind of attention, as we've talked about with the Farquharson case, for example. Leave it alone. That's how it should be. He should be convicted. Maybe this was one where he probably shouldn't have got involved because what would it would have been? It would have been far different in terms of the knowledge of this case. Locally to Canton, probably not, but far widest reaching, definitely.

1:15:34 I think you're right, but and I think the fact that this came undone for him a bit and the fact that he was then, you know, he was taken to a point of this as well. He did some fucking awful. It was still doing awful. Things he's a he's he is a total piece of shit yeah so yeah, I don't actually really want to talk about him that much more because I don't think he needs to have any credit necessarily in this. But I think you're right in saying his involvement in this has also then added another element of spotlight on the case that again might not have.

1:16:08 That it's amplified Alan Jackson's, you know. Narrative, absolutely. It really played into that. But it's also then like meant that a fair trial can't occur. No, really. I mean, he was intimidating witnesses because it's been I'm not not speaking out of turn. He's been, like, proven. He's been convicted of. Convicted of it like it's yeah, he's intimidated. Witnesses He's he really, really wanted people not getting on that stand. Mm hmm. And that is not. OK, no, the the but, but that's The thing is that's exactly right.

1:16:36 But so. OK, Yes, he's been prosecuted and found guilty of doing that of, Yeah, of witness intimidation and obstructing the course of justice. Did he ended up getting convicted of that as well anyway, That was obstruction of justice, I think was one of the charges he had anyway. Whether he was convicted or not, I can't remember. Yeah. But there's, he's docked people, yeah, sent people around. I mean, like, 'cause it's he's so far reaching that he's got, he's got minions to do his work for him, like basically and go and graze people's houses, go to their sporting events and absolutely harass people.

1:17:03 Disgusting. Horrible. Whether they are guilty or not, you don't do that never. That's and then and but children too. I mean, we, yeah, we're talking doing this to Jen McCabe's children as well and stuff, which is. Just he's a that's all, piece of shit. Yeah, he deserves whatever he gets. But yeah, I can't remember what my point was. Then it doesn't matter. Yeah, as I said, don't want to talk about him much. No. We won't mention it, but how long to die in cold? Yeah, we can talk about. How long, How long, How long?

1:17:31 Love it, but anyway. So, yeah, so Jen says so the defense say that that message was actually sent at 5:26, which was after the execution, sorry, the prosecution, which was after they'd found. Yeah, Jen McCabe claims that whilst currently is running around like a chicken with his head cut off going Oh my God, he's you. Need to tell me. Tell me, how long does it take to call? Yeah, like, you know, like, so she Google searched it whilst there. And in doing that, what she's opened up an old tab which she Googled something back at 2:34 AM for her daughter.

1:18:07 Yeah. What was she doing up? Like, this is where I'm gonna go. Oh, there's elements of this that I go what? She's Googling something else at 2:34, not this question. And then it opened that same tab to Google search this at 5 something, whatever in the morning when Karen Reed asked her to. Yeah, that is Jen McCabe's testimony. There are experts from both sides who have said both could be true. Either be true. Yeah. So we don't they just cancel each other out. And it's like, I tend to believe actually that what Jen McCabe said is true.

1:18:40 OK. I do in in really getting down on this. Look, I if she. If they did, if they would. No, if they put a body out in the snow. Why would she? No. Oh, Google search how long it'll take him to die. Yeah, no. No, no one's doing that. Yeah, and I don't think Jen McCabe's an idiot. No, you know, she's. Well, no, no, I'm not a big rapper. No, I'm not. I'm not either. I'm not either. And but I don't think she's dumb. No. Absolutely. Yeah. She's got a certain level of intelligence that I think would stop her from Googling.

1:19:09 Yeah, like that's dumb. You're really poor at a conspiracy theory. Yeah, conspiracy, if that's what you're gonna do. So yeah, yeah, I don't buy it that that happened. No, I think you're right. I think it happened at 5, whatever, because and I think maybe, I don't know, it's weird that Karen would even say that, but then I can almost understand her saying that. But then that wouldn't be my first thought would be to Google. No, it'd be like get an ambulance here right now. Yes, I'd be like paramedics.

1:19:35 I need help. I need warmth, get blankets from inside, help me get him off the ground like I don't know that. To me, I find it when I mean Jen McCabe is one that has really questioned Karen's behaviour on the on that morning, whereas I question that as behaviour more than what Karen Reed did. Like me too. I do kind of go who stands there and goes Oh yeah, sure. While they're dying over there way. I'll Google search how long it takes for someone to die. Yeah, no, I'm sorry. I'm in there. I'm like, I'm like, how are we doing CPR here?

1:20:03 Are you doing mouth? Are you doing mouth? Am I doing chest press? How are we doing this? Like I'm not standing back going. Do you want any Google search that for you? I find that really off putting. I don't know. And that's why I can almost in a way also believe the 234 or whatever because I'm like, who would actually literally stand there in a crisis and Google something like that, to me doesn't make sense either. But then the other way doesn't make sense. So anyway, yeah, tell us what you believe, people.

1:20:30 I'll bring it to know. Bring it, bring it, bring it. I love it. I love it. Please, I'm I'm so I've been I've I've as I say, our flip teams in the mid middle of this and. I think anyone will flip flop. Yeah, Honestly, yeah. So the next thing should we talk about is the broken tail light. OK, yes, let's do that. Yes, OK. So next thing is the broken tail light. There's scratches on the rear bumper. So Karen had this giant Lexus SUV, dark coloured SUV, right? Huge car for one person. Don't. Worry, you know, didn't you think of the environment?

1:21:08 The prosecution say that Reid reversed into O'Keefe, the tail light broke and then that the matching debris. So the matching broken tail light was then laid out once the snow had been melted away, found in the driveway at the Albert's house. Right, that's off to the side, but. Yeah, that's what the prosecution say. Yeah, the defense say that the damage is inconsistent with hitting a human and that the tail light was probably broken earlier. And doesn't Karen say that she'd spoken to her dad about it earlier to say Oh no, it wasn't there yet?

1:21:43 So basically what? So on the night, because so when she was arrested originally and Proctor does point out to her what happened with your tail light and she goes, I don't know, but it happened last night. Now you can go onto the Ring footage and you can see this. Oh yeah. So on the night when she leaves John's place, at one point earlier in the evening, she reverses back from the garage. So John had moved his car out of the garage and parked it just off to the side. And so that she could park in the garage, knowing that the Blizzard was coming and her car was the better car, I guess whatever, they've decided to put that one in the garage.

1:22:21 So she was inside the garage. When she's gone to leave, she's reversed out of that garage and again, been drinking. So this is when she's on her way to meet John. She reverses back and you can see on the footage where his car, she reverses back and you can't get, it's not a great angle, but you can see that his car does move slightly and they do hone in on it in the trial and you can see that the wheel moves and things that there was contact. Yeah. And it is the correct tile tail light for of what?

1:22:51 It's the passenger side rear tail light that that connection has been made with. And then she drives off and continues on her way. So a cracked tail light could have definitely occurred if that was that minor tap. And I can also come at her not even realizing that that damage has been has done because, you know, you might kind of go, oh, did I just hit that one? Yeah, OK, drive off, got there. By the time you've got to where you're going kind of like with a small tap about it, whatever. Yeah. And maybe it was a small crack in that tail line as case reported all that.

1:23:25 Yeah. However, so the doctor does, he spots this, obviously that's her explanation. She goes, I don't know, but it clearly happened last night because she's she realizes obviously, but at this point that that wasn't there the day before. She does know that that was not, you know, but yeah. So there's evidence of where that potentially else could have happened. The the prosecution obviously is saying it happened with the connection of o'cafe. Now, there's a whole lot of issues with all of this stuff.

1:23:53 That car gets taken to the sallyport and there is camera footage of the car sitting in the Sally port and police officers doing what they do around that car. Now, as we say, Proctor is very questionable in all of this and he is seen in that Sally port with that vehicle before any tail light is being found at the scene, correct? Now, the defense have used this really well. I think that footage that you will see when you look at it and you watch that footage and you think you're looking at the passenger side of the vehicle, full angle of the passenger side of that vehicle and the passenger rear tail light, yes.

1:24:39 And you tick over the time as that car is sitting there and you never see a police officer go anywhere near that rear tail light. You'll see, Cat says, you'll see Proctor's head on the other side of that vehicle, but never on the rear passenger side vehicle of that car. But that's what you think you're looking at. What the defense then do point out eventually after this being presented, is that that footage is reversed. It's been flipped. It's been flipped. There's a car parked next to her vehicle and it's a police vehicle and you can see on the back of it the words police.

1:25:13 Written backwards and that you can also see there's a #3 as part of a number plate, and you can see that the three is backwards. It's backwards, yeah. So when you actually watch it in the correct way, you realize you are actually observing the driver's side vehicle of the car and that therefore Proctor is on that rear tail light that is broken. Yeah. And that he is for quite some time. A lot of time, yeah. So this is, this is problematic and I think that the the defence have definitely put something forward here that proves some doubt in all of this 100%.

1:25:51 I think as well with that is So what Proctor claims is that they then found those tail light shards in the driveway at the Albert's house, right it. Doesn't claim it it. Happened. It happened. Well, no, they were found there. Yeah, yeah, yes, absolutely. They would then send off, sent off for forensic testing to see whether there was any DNA, blood, anything on that. There's nothing. Nothing was ever found on them, but they do exactly match what was take. What was missing from the tail light of Gen.

1:26:23 of Karen's car? So this is another thing that is out there that a lot of people believe that these tail light pieces were found three days after the impact of John and the car, right? That's not the truth. I don't know. It is so wildly out there that this happened three days later and that Proctor was the one who found the pieces. That's what everyone believes. That's actually not what happened. So what has happened on that day? So 4:00 PM ish ish, the car was picked up from Karen's, taken to the teleport.

1:26:57 Yes. And Proctor is seen in that in the vicinity of that tail light. Absolutely. Then at 5:00 PM at the Albert's house, the police do a shoulder to shoulder search of the front lawn, which is where Don's body was found. In that search they find not much at all. In like the first part of doing that 5:45 they find a piece of tail light. From 5:45 for another 15 minutes they continue to find more tail light pieces. So there is a time frame here where people are saying that Proctor could have taken those bits of tail light and what gone to the scene sprinkled them around.

1:27:40 But he wasn't there. No, no. He wasn't. No, he was there after this. Yeah, so. He got there at 545 or something. Something like, well, that's when they found the pieces 540. 50545 he got there. It was after that though. It was around that time. It wasn't far off. Yeah. But they did find that at least the first piece was found before he got to him getting there. Yep. Yep. The other pieces were found then I think with him being there. OK. But in the end, they found 45 pieces. And we're talking like when, say, 45 pieces, like little tiny, tiny.

1:28:13 Some of them were bigger pieces. Yeah. So there were 40-5 pieces. And now like you know, the snow is it's melting away and find like they're finding things. So there's I actually this is where I kind of go where I change my my thought here. OK those those pieces were genuinely found there by other police. Yeah. I just don't know that with that many people on scene of doing a shoulder to salt shoulder search of that, how many police officers were involved in that, that Proctor would be able to come in and what have bits of.

1:28:44 Tail light and to have so many bits and little fragments as well, which were then able to all be put together. Yeah, I do understand that. The other part of the tail light that we should then go into, which the FBI were actually the ones that found this, was that in John's clothing that he was wearing were very small shards of tail light matching the tail light were found in his clothing. Yeah. So to me, that makes me think it was his jacket open. It must have been because he was wearing a jacket, yeah.

1:29:16 He's wearing like a Yeah, it was like a. An overcoat, but it must. But it must have been open because they found it on his on his undershirt. Possibly. I know that she says what he's wearing in the waterfall. Yeah, there's video footage of that. Yeah, that's what he's wearing when he's in the snow. It's not. Like OK. It's not a lot of clothing, yeah. Yeah. OK, maybe that they meant that then. Yeah, the other thing that is like fucked about this is that no chain of custody of those tail light pieces were maintained.

1:29:48 No the. Tail. So yeah, this is where the. Police, they can't actually, the police works fucked. So they can't actually use this really as as solid evidence because they didn't fucking bag everything, you know, So what are we arguing over here? Like we don't actually even it, it kind of means nothing to be honest. Yes, unfortunately, Yeah, yeah, yeah, I, I agree. And that's so we don't. We don't know for sure what was found when and by whom, because it was never bagged and and tagged and as it should have maintained, yeah, the chain of custody maintained.

1:30:21 Yeah, so his clothing, obviously he was wearing them when he's taken to the. Hospital. Yeah. So that was fine. His clothing. Was OK. Basically I've said. I mean, it wasn't done as it should have been at any point in this, but they're basically saying that the FBI who've looked into this kind of go, there's no point in time where procked out was did have access to him and his clothing. No, that's exactly. So therefore the clothing having tail light shards found is pretty strong evidence, yeah, which I think gets really pushed to the side.

1:30:50 Which is. Exactly what the defence want and I really that, that's the bit that kind of is the clincher for me. Yeah, that and the the tail light pieces and how they were found and how many people would need to be involved in this conspiracy to have not found those pieces, how they found them. People believe that literally Proctor was there on his own three days later and went, oh, look what I just found. No, no, no. And that's not no. No, no, no, no. These pieces were found legitimately. I think you're right in that the pieces that were found on John's body, yeah, they.

1:31:21 That can't really be argued because the hospital did the right thing and they bagged all of the evidence at the hospital and in the presence of a police officer, it was signed chain of custody, everything like that. So I agree with you. Yeah. That. That's certainly pretty bloody damning. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, I think as I say, it will say a lot of times the defence have done exactly what they should have done. Yeah, the footage evidence in the Sally port is fucking hell. That's just. But that just makes the.

1:31:49 Police look so fucking so incompetent but also so deceptive. Why are you feeling? Like they're doing the wrong. Thing they look like they're doing the wrong thing, that's it. So of course that makes you go, well, if they're doing the wrong thing and trying to doctor evidence like this, what else are they trying to doctor? Absolutely. So it puts their whole case into disrepute because of course people are gonna think that I think that. Yeah, yeah, definitely. Why would you? Why would you falsify shit?

1:32:13 Yeah, there's no, there's actually probably no need to. No, And this is where I think they've done themselves no favors. Yeah, with that sort of stuff. That was the video. When I heard about the video footage thing being flipped, I was like, why the fuck would you do? Therefore, I'm gonna, I can go down this conspiracy route because like, Oh my God. Agreed. But then when I really look at the actual physical evidence of this case, that's when I go. I actually, yeah. What about the injuries that John sustained?

1:32:41 So he had an autopsy done. Yeah. And it basically came back that he had a head trauma, lacerations, arm wounds and hypothermia. So he actually died of the hypothermia and head trauma. Yes, the head injury and then like the hypothermia contributed to the yeah, speed of all that. So the prosecution obviously say that he was impacted by the SUV which caused the blunt head trauma and then obviously the exposure to cold. We all know he was found in this. No, there's no so that about that. They're saying he's hit.

1:33:12 They're sort of saying from the on the side, like because his arm had injuries and we can get into. Those Oh yeah, that's like one of my favorite parts. So the arm injuries that he has so sort of angled to the side to hit his arm and then he was thrown back and falling backwards is what's given him the head injury. 'Cause he's kind of falling against the house. Yeah, the so the other injury that always gets talked about too is the fact he had two black eyes. Now, the two black eyes, we'll be really, really, really clear that medical examiners have stated those black eyes are not from physical punches to the face.

1:33:45 They are from the blood, the bleeding on the brain. Yeah, from the head injury that have created blood. Black eyes, yeah. So that's it's it's. And again, yeah, so the injuries are very interesting. Yeah. And again 'cause some issues. Yeah, well, the the defense say that the injuries are inconsistent with a car strike. So they're talking about the blood, the black eyes, and then that the arm wounds resemble dog bites. They had an expert come in to talk about that and that the they they allege that the death occurred after there was an altercation inside the Albert's house and that he was then placed outside to the defence.

1:34:25 Really went hard on that in terms of and I feel like this is was probably not what they needed to do even to get the the reasonable doubt in this to be yeah. But yeah, they really went full hog into the fact that this was actually not even just an accident. This was planned prior and that they wanted to murder John and they were going, they jumped, they were going to jump. They jumped him inside the house and beat him up and then dumped him out in the snow to die. Now that's a that's a big leap to go that far.

1:34:58 I really think. But I think some of the evidence can be absolutely drawn to a thought of like drunken men having some sort of argument and you know, and being and they're being in a fight and him being oh fuck you, Chuck him out in the snow. I there is a world where I can believe that that could occur. OK, yeah, I, I mean, yeah, yeah, it's very not. Fully into it, but yeah, I can. I can come at it. Yeah, I guess it's, it's not impossible is what you're saying? Yes, yes, I agree with that. But then they were having a great time at the waterfall.

1:35:28 All of the CCTV there shows that they're all yeah. But the reason, so the what the back story is as to why they think this had occurred was what what the prosecution, sorry, the defence put forward is that Colin Albert, who is the nephew of the owner of the house. Yes, so Brian Albert's nephew. He was a bit of an issue. Now there is evidence of this that John had actually sort of spoken to some police officers around the fact that he had seen Colin Albert dealing drugs. So the that's what they have put forward is that there was a beef between Colin and John.

1:36:10 But John hadn't actually reported it. He had. Yeah, there is evidence. Of it OK, OK. Yeah. So there's, Yeah, they, they basically say that, yeah, Colin was like lying and waiting inside, knowing that John, you know, was coming. And he beat up John. Now there's lots. I have lots of issues with that, I really do. But how would he have even known that they were come, that he was coming? Well, one was he that he was coming? I don't even know that Colin knew that he had reported that to police officers.

1:36:40 Because nothing had been done about. It had been done about it, which because he was now. But yeah, exactly. Right. He was. So not only was Brian a police officer, he was a retired police officer at this point, I should say, yeah, his brother was also a police officer. And his other brother, I want to say you're in like a butcher's or something. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So there was. The three of them were very well known around Canton as being a police family. Yeah. And so there was other Albert's that had been charged with things I think in the past and had got away with them and things had been done to sweep things under the rugs.

1:37:09 So I do believe that was pretty much what was going to happen to Colin and was already in the process. So I don't know, Yeah. But is it worth killing someone over none? The marks. Let's, oh, the dog bar theory get into this. It's my favorite. So the Albert family owned a German Shepherd by the name of Chloe. Yeah. And the. So you can have a look again. The photos of this are online everywhere, but you can see photos of John's arm. Yeah. And the prosecution says that. Sorry. The defence says that the bite marks match that of a German Shepherd.

1:37:48 How the fuck you'd know that? I don't know. And scratches. So they're like, oh, this is consistent with scratch. Interesting. This is a consistent. Yeah, It doesn't look like someone's been hit by a car. No, it doesn't. And to the point of like I have to. This is funny because I was I was actually watching that documentary right when one or when sons came downstairs. Oh yeah. And so I've paused the doco and it's literally on his arm on the screen. Yeah, right. And Mason, who is very into true crime and I have to try like not get him involved in things, but he wants too badly.

1:38:18 Yeah. And he comes in and he goes, oh, what's this one? You know, I go, oh, this is a real juicy, weird, weird story kind of thing. And I go, what do you reckon 'cause those injuries now he knows no, nothing of this case. You know, I said, what do you reckon would have caused injuries like that? And he goes, looks like he's been more by bear interest. And I thought that was a really interesting sort of like and I went. Yeah, yeah. I write that that's potentially what it could look like, yeah, but I don't know what tail light gashes could look like either.

1:38:44 Yeah, I don't. Know, but I don't know. It's weird. The arm thing's weird. That throws up a bit. Of a thing. For me it's it's the context of the dog that then makes it look soft. I know. So The thing is as well, like when they did the autopsy, they have taken swabs of all of the injuries on his arm. Yeah. No canine DNA was found. Pig DNA was found now I can so so the defense put to the the pathologist that well pig DNA as in like maybe from a dog trait like a pig's ear, which. I mean fair, fair. Yeah.

1:39:23 And again, that's all I have to do is plant. Reasonable doubt. That's right. And the pathologist was like, well, I can't exclude that. I can't. I don't know. She did end up saying like, well, yeah, maybe. Yeah, yeah, possible. It's possible. Yeah. Interesting. But the thing with the dog is that where is Chloe? Where is the dog? Well, this is the thing. Seven days after this happened, they got rid of her. And so that's where it's also it's like. Why don't they? Why do that? Like it? Makes you feel guilty.

1:39:53 They, I know, but they, they their story, what they testify to, which is again, again, Oh my God. So prior to this occurring, Chloe had injured somebody. Yeah, right. Again, a few days after this, she injured someone else. She was in another fight with another dog and something or something. So they rehomed, well, rehomed her. I say that because she, they, well, I feel like maybe they put it down. I think they did, but. They're not saying that, which I because they're saying that they've rehomed her to a farm, which sounds so much like, you know, Yeah.

1:40:21 The farm in the sky. The big farm in the sky. To a farm where they can run free, yeah. I mean, look, if your dogs attacked some twice, like they should be put down. I mean, I think that's. That's what they're claiming has occurred, yeah. And to be honest, I think that that's probably what happened.

1:40:41 But like, do you think what happened was like John was outside already and maybe Chloe's come outside and seen his arm and had a go at it? Like I just it's possible. It's possible. I had. I have thought that, yeah. But to be honest, I think you'd then see more down, bite down and more clear. Yeah. Because this is more like this. Is grapes it's. That's true. So what else would've caused it? I just don't think it's. The tail light, the more I've looked at it and the more I have, I've like really gone way down, OK, the more I look at it, I I can buy that it's tail light and it's but how?

1:41:20 I just don't understand, like has he fallen across the tail light and scratch? I think he's as as it's. As he's fallen over. And it's. Yeah. And it's it's. Significant scratches. Though I think so, I think. So let let us know what you think people. I'm so curious. That this is the bit that. For me does I can't. I know I was fully into the Bowie story and I just now I'm now I'm like, yeah, it doesn't all add up. My, my thought was that Chloe might have come out and Wally was like unconscious, had a bit of a go.

1:41:50 But then I see what you mean about that. The marks would have been different, as if she was coming down on on it. Yeah, but maybe she was like digging in the snow or something because he was buried. I don't know. But then wouldn't there be dog hair somewhere or dog DNA somewhere? And it's not. And my thing with the other thing with like getting rid of Chloe the way they did, right? Like, why? OK, even if she did do what what we're saying, we're suggesting that she did, right? Dogs are going to talk.

1:42:21 No, dogs are going to sit there and go, oh, yeah, I'm old. I'm old. Yeah. Yeah, not gonna happen. Yeah. So why do you need to get rid of the dog? Like, I genuinely think there's evidence that this dog, these events that happened with this dog, there is absolutely evidence of that. So you think the fact that they got rid of the dog has nothing? To do, I think it's just purely coincidental that's what's occurred and they've they've got rid of the dog. All right, next bit of evidence. Well, reads blood alcohol content.

1:42:50 Oh, yeah, let's go there. Yeah, let's go there. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so we talked about this at the start of the episode, that her blood alcohol content was problematic. Yeah, she'd had, we know, at least 8 drinks. She'd purchased 9. We don't know the strength of those drinks or what was necessarily in them. We know they were all spirit based though. Yeah. So basically when she got when she was arrested, they did a blood blood alcohol on it. Now this is so she finished drinking somewhere around 12:30 in the morning.

1:43:25 Well, and that's the other thing that that's what we know of from video footage, Yeah. We don't know if she left John pissed as she was at him. Did she go home and have another drink? We don't know. We don't know. We don't know. But look, let's say she didn't, OK? Because if she didn't, because even if she didn't, it's bad. Especially if she didn't actually, to be honest, especially if she didn't, it's bad. Yeah. She's then been arrested. At what time was that like? For Oh no in the morning. In the morning she they did a B A/C.

1:43:56 I yeah, they do. You want to because I'm at the scene. They were like we need to get, we need to get here. So that was it like, but I think it was like 8 something AM, 850 something AM. Yeah. They've done a blood alcohol on her, yes. And it came back as .13, yes. OK. What that means is so in in Massachusetts, you're the legal drinking limit is .08. Yes, in Australia for us it's point O 5. And so at .13, however many hours later, what's that 7-8 hours later? That's significant. It really is. What they what the medical examiner estimates is that at the time that she allegedly hit John, Yeah, her blood alcohol concentration would have been .29.

1:44:43 Now that's based on her weight, the number of hours she was drinking, how quickly she was drinking, blah, blah, blah blah. Blah. Lots of factors. Lots of factors were. Putting and it's very, you know, estimate. It's not. And they say that it's not definitive. It is their best guess. Yeah, .29 Fucking fucking hell she would. Not have. Been she should not have been driving. Even at .13 she shouldn't have been driving. God, no, no. Yeah, Yeah. That's look and that's where again that element of this.

1:45:14 But then the defense says you can be drunk, but that doesn't make you a murderer. You can drive under the. Influence and it doesn't make you a murderer. Absolutely. Do I believe she's a murderer? No, I but I can absolutely come at a story of someone being that drunk or going. I'm like, I'm getting out of here and driving off. Not having any idea. No idea they hit anybody driving forward going. I'm fucking leaving this bastard. He can go fucking himself like. Yeah, well, if you listen to her messages after, that's probably exactly.

1:45:43 What she was thinking, she was. Doing that, I can I that is a world where I go. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That that totally happened. Yeah, I agree. Yep. Allegedly. Oh no. Like. Whoa, no. Snow. Whoa. Well, she's acquitted. She's acquitted, according to our theory. Yeah, well. So the other, the other thing we need to say here is the poor police work in general, the now poor police work or not. OK, so the house, the sorry, the defense very vehemently say that John did go into that house and that whatever occurred happened in that house.

1:46:27 His body was then put outside the house. The house was never searched. Never. Never, no one ever entered that house. The police officers, the most of someone entering that house was a police officer did go to the door, but he actually never went in. Now there's an issue here slightly. To be able to enter that property and do that, you need to have probable cause. Now they claim this is the claim that the police have is that they had no probable cause. Fuck off, a man was found dead in your front yard.

1:46:58 That's probable cause enough for me. Well, according to their legal system that is not enough because all of the evidence stuff was on the lawn. But they didn't know that all of the evidence stuff was on the lawn. They didn't know that no say that I. Don't agree with this at all and to be honest it did them no favors. No. Because if they had searched that house, they could have definitively said one way or the other. Whether he was in there? Because why was that police officer in that house? I'd be like, please come in and see in here and make fingerprint everything.

1:47:31 No, he never came in here because this is what they say, like Brian Albert, everyone else was at that party vehemently. And again, this is where the conspiracy comes into it. If, like, you know, they all say this. He did not come. In they didn't see him. No, not even that. They said they didn't see him. There's a group chat where, oh, I want to say it's Higgins. Yeah, says another Brian. We haven't got to him yet. We got to him, Yeah. So he puts in the group chat, I believe and says just tell him, tell them he never came in the house.

1:48:00 And then Brian Elbert's responds exactly, which some people take as them going, oh, that's the conspiracy being. Started, but you could take that away. Either way but what he's probably telling. He never came. He never came in. So, yeah. So. Because they and if that's truth, if that he never came in that house, I would be like. Please. I want you to come in and stretch the house. I want you to say that nothing was here because what it's allowed for is for the defence to claim it all went on in the house, it went on in the house and we don't have evidence of it.

1:48:31 Because the police never went in and did their job properly, yeah. Now the other thing that lies with this though is what did they do after this? Like within months. Oh, they sold their. Sold the house. Not only sold the house, ripped up the carpet, redid the basement, ripped up concrete and replaced concrete. Now that information on its own makes me go what the fuck. This is guilty as shit now, but if you add that the property had been on the market for 12 months. And they and they had also done other renovations.

1:49:06 Yeah. To the house to get it ready to solve. They wanted to. That's right. They it wasn't selling, so they wanted to sell it. They wanted to improve the things that the real estate agent had said. Yeah. So again, you can view this either way. Yeah. So. Again, I'm like, all right, I have to cross that off my list. Yeah, this is where I was. What? I was a non issue I think. I think we can't put. I think, unfortunately, coincidence has again played a role here. Yeah, but if only they had searched that house.

1:49:30 See, because 100% because I don't think John had ever been to their house before. So that means if they hadn't, if they found fingerprints in there, they could 100% say that he was there that night. Yep. Absolutely. But it was never looked at. No, I don't even think that fingerprint at the front car. Because there was blood stains on it. They would have seen that there were blood stains on the car totally, you know, like, so just if they had just fucking done that. But yeah, the the at least the stance on it is that they didn't have probable cause to go in and.

1:50:02 Do I call bullshit? In that cart we've got. Bullshit in that you've got a dead. Body on your lawn? Fucking probable cause. Yeah. That infuriates me. Shall we get to Brian Higgins though? Yeah, yeah. Let's talk about Brian Higgins. Yeah, OK, so Brian Higgins is yet another police officer now. He and John knew each other slightly more than some of the others I guess, but not that well. They weren't friends. They were acquainted. They knew each other through work. And that was where it really was at.

1:50:29 Yeah. But definitely had been at the same parties and evenings similar to this night, you know? And so had Karen. So over this period of time, Karen and Brian Higgins had spent time together in in groups, you know, and it had been a bit flirtatious. Which were the two of them? Just a. Bit well, it gets worse. Well, I guess initially, yeah, a bit of a bit of flirting going on, yeah. So. But so, as we said, Karen and John's relationship was a bit rocky at this point. And there had been. I think stuff and also John's niece in the week prior to John's death had overheard John and Karen having a conversation where Brian where John basically said to Karen, I really feel like our our relationship's taken its course.

1:51:12 Yeah, OK. So I think they were they were both. Kind of. This wasn't. Maybe it's kind of done. Nothing had major had actually happened, but it was kind of. Cara monster. She'd A phobia though, like. She had quite the temper on it. Well, there was an incident where they've been to Aruba with a group of friends again and a lot of drinking and all that stuff, which, whatever, whatever. But clearly when she gets drunk, she gets quite rowdy. That's it. So obviously, again, drinking involved, she's coming to a foyer of the hotel where John is talking to a friend of his that he hasn't seen in a while but is within this group.

1:51:47 And they lent in for the kiss like, and it was apparently just a friendly like kiss on the cheeks sort of situation. Karen has walked into this. What the fuck are you doing? Got off her a tree like that. John's cheating on her and all this. So, yeah, but who was the guilty party in that? Yeah, well, do you know what I mean? Like. You know, the Karen stuff with Ryan happened well, later after that because that was kind of her reaction to it still. Oh, that's true. Yeah. So they returned from this trip where she's like, oh, you know, John wants to treat, cheat on me and stuff.

1:52:18 And so she has kind of like, gone, I think. I think, as you say, they both knew this relationship was kind of coming to its end. Yeah. But Karen decides to send a little flirtatious message to Brian Higgins. Yeah, so the text messages have been released. I feel for. I feel for Brian. So do I, but then if you play with fire, you're gonna get burnt. So the defensive put him on the on the stand and questioned him at length on all of this. And so, yeah, his messages between the two of them get real flirtatious.

1:52:51 And like, it's, I don't know, it's so awkward. It is. It is awkward reading other people's sexy text messages. And the way he goes, like, she's like, you know, I've always thought you were hot. Oh, yeah. OK, John. I John, I thought. John's very interesting. He's so attractive and. Then you're like, what? Now you're gonna like, go for Higgins. Yeah, Higgins is, and he's older and he's just like John is, a lovely looking man. Eyes. Oh, he's got beautiful or had beautiful eyes. Yeah. Anyway, sorry, keep going.

1:53:22 So yeah, she's like messaging me. Oh, you know, I've always thought you're hot. And he's like, Oh no, I've always thought you were hot. Real high school sheet. Could anyway, lengthy text message is back and forth. This is sort of like the week prior to this occurring yeah. So there's a bit of something there like. But the, the this is where the phone's sheet comes into it. Yeah, Higgins does this bizarre thing with his phone, and his response to this is also. Very odd and. This is where I just say they've just done themselves absolutely no favours.

1:53:52 So when this occurs, Higgins decides to break his SIM and his take his phone and destroy them and throw them out at a military base in a dump in two separate dumpsters. What? Well, how would you do that? What is on that phone that you're trying to hide? And his response to this at the time was, you know, that he was, oh, he was due to get a new phone and he was just getting rid of it, right? Which makes zero sense. Makes zero sense. But then to boot the defense or question him and say, but why would you put it in a dumpster in a military base like any great his response was I have every right to do that what I. Mean we're not saying you didn't have the right.

1:54:41 No, I want to know. Why? Why would you choose to do it that way? Yeah, I have every right to do that. Why? What? It's so weird. It's. So weird. And he's not the only person in this who destroys his phone and gets rid of it. So there's so much that we miss in terms of data or whatever of people's actions. What do you think? Like, I don't think he was involved in anything. The thing I well they're claiming that maybe he was because get rid of John and he can have Karen. I don't know they were prosecute.

1:55:12 The defense, sorry, were claiming he was involved. Where's the evidence to support that though? There isn't really any or are they saying that the text messages are? So what do you think He sent sent Karen a text message saying oh, make sure you run John over during the Blizzard. Maybe you can get away with it like. No, he's saying that he insinuating that he was part of the beating him up. And oh, OK, OK, yeah. I mean, which I don't. Which didn't happen. It didn't happen. No, but they're claiming that the, yeah, text messages like evidence as to why he would have motive to do that.

1:55:41 I see. Yeah, well, and they but then the prosecution used those text messages as evidence as to why Karen would intentionally hit him and kill him because she's over the relationship and pissed with him. But The thing is and wants. To move on to Higgins. She can walk away. She's got her own home, she's got her own car, she's got her own everything. If she didn't want to be with John, she didn't have to be with John, no. So I don't really buy that. I don't buy that whole stuff, no. I believe the drunken action that yeah, yeah.

1:56:11 What do you now? What about Proctor? We haven't kind of gotten into what happened with him because that is oh fucking hell. Like honestly. Proctor is a piece of shit. He's a total piece of shit. Yeah. So he was removed from the case. No, no he wasn't. He was the lead. Yeah, he was the lead in the up until the first trial. He was fired. When was he fired? In 2024? So he was still on the on the on the force for a long time after this. He was fired in the March of 2024. So prior just prior to the second trial.

1:56:50 Yeah, he was fired, but not, well, I think in general if with his behaviour. So he was on this case then through the investigation of this entirety, like, so the evidence of what he has done is there's group messages, there's people he's spoken to, his language around Karen, disgusting. Just gross. He calls her all sorts of things. So he's not a he's not unbiased. Unbiased. Yeah, absolutely. From the, and then we're talking about like literally there's video footage from a body Cam of him arriving at Karen's house to arrest her, which they go around the back of her house to go to get to a door where they go in.

1:57:34 And as they're walking around there on this body Cam footage of this other police officer, you hear Proctor turn to his colleague and say she's a fucking bitch. And like, this is very early on in this investigation. You have no idea of what's going on here and he is already speaking incredibly demeaningly of. Her, there are so many texts, like to his colleagues saying the most derogatory things about Karen. Yeah. And, like, it's disgusting. It's the way he talks about her is absolutely disgusting.

1:58:05 Yeah. So once this is all found out, there is an investigation, you know, put in place to sort of figure out exactly what's going on. He was stood down from this case and then he ended up leaving the police force for a while. He was suspended for 12 months or something. He was suspended to begin with, but he was definitely fired at the end. Yeah, March 2024, he was fired. Well, fucking good, good work. Because regardless of anything, you can't. You can't. You're not. You can't do a job. You need to be.

1:58:36 Unbiased, regardless of who the subject is. Yeah, whether she's got an arse or not, does it matter? What? Yeah, whether, yeah, he commented. That's right, he commented on a physical appearance on. Oh, he was just gross. Really repulsive cannot with him and so and he's yeah his whole demeanour is really off. But that's where like the police have not something needs to be. I think really further looked into in terms of in general the culture everything around the police in that area. And this is not unknown at all.

1:59:11 This is something that's very, very well known in that Boston police and me a bit corrupt, Yeah, in that area because, I mean, there's full fucking movies about it. I mean, yeah. Was it the The Departed? Yeah. Departed. Yeah. That is such a good movie. Watch that movie. Actually, I'm gonna go and watch it. Oh, so it's so many great actors in that movie. But it's all about the fact of like this kind of area, the corrupt cops of what this area can bring. And these, to me, these cops very much fit that stereotype, yeah, of what can happen.

1:59:42 And that's where I think it was very easy for the defence to come in and pick apart this, you know, this case to a point of going, this is a corrupt cops issue. Yeah, because prior. And, and kind of there is like you can see, I mean, I'm not saying there's hard evidence to show anything in particular, but you can see where things haven't been done right because they probably just thought, ah, it'll be fine, You know, we'll get around this. Or, you know, the fact they didn't go into the house because because it's a police officer's house, you know, like that's not OK, but.

2:00:12 It was a police officer who died, too. Yeah. That's so there's like this real weird juxtaposition of like, we have to get someone for this because. It but I do. Yes, I get that. But I also feel like John wasn't part of that. Yeah, I like, I feel like he was like a little bit on the outer and they they were all sticking together in and of themselves, but John was a bit distant. And again. That's where I think they've almost done themselves a disservice in that fact of like where their stories align a little too much, because I think they do do the whole I'm not lying about my friend who's the cop.

2:00:42 Like I'm a cop, he's a cop. My brother's a cop, my sister in law's husband's a cop. Like I think that they have they they that circle have gotten so freaking tight on this that it actually makes them look like a conspiracy. Yeah, I agree. When it's not. I agree. Yeah, I that's really, I think really done it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So basically when this went to trial for the first time, I think we've mentioned that, you know, it was a hung jury. So the jury deliberated the first time. It was for quite a few days.

2:01:17 They then said to the judge that they couldn't reach a verdict. The judge said they needed to try and deliberate a little bit longer. Yeah, they've done that. They were still unable to reach a verdict. And it was apparently, according to the jury foreperson, the divide was staunch and strong and they were never going to be able to come to a a unanimous decision. The other element of that with that first trial and the jury that I still, this is where I feel like the judge was. Shit. Yeah, was what they were given to mark down their outcome and I do fully agree with the defence on this.

2:01:49 This does not seem right. No, they were given a piece of a card or whatever that they had to mark on whether they whether she was guilty of the certain charges and if they believe she was not guilty, they would just to not mark anything. So that's where I think this got really great. And I believe the jury were confused by it, too, because they kept coming back with questions. I was going to say, they did come back with questions. About it, the defence kept saying it's because of the car and what you've given them to Mark isn't what I've never dealt with before.

2:02:22 Yeah, it's not clear enough and the judge really keep my eyes is what we do here because he was not from the area. He was from LA. She kept, Really. Yeah, she didn't like that like that. She did not like it. So she don't do it like. That yeah, look, I feel like they could have gone for a mistrial anyway based on the bias towards the prosecution by the judge, because she was. Yeah. Oh, she there was a. Fair. Oh yes, so much of that. Both trials, yeah. Felt for yeah. Yeah, it was bad. I agree. Yeah, she was shit.

2:02:50 But that that particularly that one, I look, there's lots of other like there's lots of things she let in, as we said earlier, that shouldn't have been as well from the defence. So a little both ways. But this particularly this the way she conducted the jury, I feel was very biased. I agree. A piece handing back a card with no mark on it. Means anyone could mark anything. Anyone could either mark anything or she could say, oh, it's a mistrial because yeah, when when actually in fact, no, it's not guilty, but you just didn't tell us where to mark, how to do that.

2:03:20 Agreed. So it could be misinterpreted that and that's what the defence were saying too. This is not clear enough so. Anyway, it ended in a mistrial and so they had to have the second trial, which I remember the media around that was just, it blew up like it was already big. And then, yeah, you know, this, the Karen Reed retrial, bloody hell, that just blew up. Yes. But basically the end of that was that she was found not guilty of the charge of. Second degree and manslaughter. And manslaughter, But she was convicted of operating under the influence of a motor, like with a motor operating a motor vehicle under the influence.

2:03:58 Yeah. And she was sentenced to 12 months probation. Yeah. So again, this one I find a little bit interesting in terms of just that. Now she as we said what her blood alcohol limit, we don't know specifically. We're basing it on science sort of stuff that potentially around .29 right now, the way they work their system of this. So that what she got convicted of and what the sentence was, is what anyone would get on their first offence of driving. That was her first offence of driving over point O 8.

2:04:30 Now there's a big difference to me of driving at point O 9 right and driving at .29. But I think what they, so her defence argued though in that, that they can't say for sure that's what it was because she also said, And so they, I think they ended up, they ended up sentencing her based on the .13 because that was the only hard evidence they had, right? And they couldn't, you can't, there was no solid evidence there. So I think that's why that ended up so I can kind of come at 12 months probation for a .13, I'd agree with you.

2:05:04 At a .29 I feel like she should have been incarcerated. There's like, you know, point, yeah, between .08 and points and point something else there's. This. And then there's this and then this. There's brackets, yeah. This felt like the way it was. It's worded if it's if you're .08. Or .29 or point. Five, yeah, literally you get the same but but you'd get the same like offence and I'm like, that's doesn't seem right. Yeah, I I think that's what what it was, OK. Yeah, I can come at that. Yeah, yeah.

2:05:32 Oh, wow. Because so, yeah, all she's ended up with is that and that's. So there's no jail time with that. It's she's just a probationary license, not even loss of license probation. So because nothing we didn't. And I don't like to bring him back again, but. I'm fucking turtle boy again. Yeah, sorry, don't go for it. So in this, because we're talking about two trials here, Yeah. And obviously with that conviction, there is a fine with it, not a big one, but you have to say, I mean these aren't cheap lawyers.

2:06:01 So she's gone through one trial and then a second trial at no point. And I, and this is particularly, I actually found this in the documentary where because the documentary ends at the end of the first trial. Yeah. So I remember listening, seeing her reaction to the fact that they've got a retrial and she's sitting in the car and talking about the fact, you know, we've got to do this again. And, you know, and I'm like, I know in my personal situation, I would be like, Oh my God, I've got to go through this again.

2:06:28 And not only have I got to go through this again mentally, but how am I going to afford to pay you guys? I can't keep you guys here. I can't even afford what I'm paying you now. Like that would be an element of this. That would be a really real high concern. It wasn't for Karen. Turtle boy raised, oh, hundreds of thousands. No, it was. Into the millions it was into the millions it got to there. Yep. So they she didn't have to worry about. Well, that she still did because at the end of the day, I think all told, she ended up spending about 5 million on her lawyers.

2:06:59 Yeah. Where all that money come from? Well, I think it was, I think her parents helped. I think there was sale of assets and all of that sort of stuff. And I think her lawyers actually gave her some. I mean their. Allowances because they've. Publicity. Absolutely. So I think told she was kind of able to mostly come up with it, I think a. Lot of it came from it did. A very, very significant portion came from this crowd. Fundraising, crowdfunding. Yeah. But then I was reading in terms of the cost of this, just the security for the second trial cost Massachusetts State 250,000 U.S. dollars, just the security for the trial.

2:07:43 Because the people at the front of these trials, there was literally, there was the blue crowd. Yep. Which were all the cops and all for, like, getting someone for. They're all like, justice for Johnny Keith. Yep. And then there's the pink side. Yep. And there was a lot of people. Do you think? It's so funny how in in the documentary, yeah, they, you know, some they were like, oh, why, you know, is pink your favorite colour? And she's like, oh, I would never wear pink, but but, you know, I suppose it's my favorite colour.

2:08:08 So they just ran with it. She didn't like it. I can't stand her. I actually can't stand her. I was. That was my next question for you, actually, Yeah. What do you think about her personally? She's not someone I'd be. Friends with no way. There's nothing genuine about her. I think she's nasty. I think, I don't know that she's just not a likable person. I don't think she is to be honest. I I see her as being. She's very self-centered. Yes, that's that's the element of her that I'm like and that's where I kind of go.

2:08:37 I bet you were, you know, good with the kids. And people do say that about it, you know, and I sort of. But whereas who? And she comes across really cold like in the documentary as well and in general. And people said that about her when she's in in a. I don't want to judge her on how she is in the courtroom. Yeah, because I cannot imagine as an innocent person, say, having to know that like people are saying things that you don't agree with, whether you're guilty or innocent, like going I'd I'd get really flustered of like people saying things that isn't true and things I can get like you have to sit there and just try and keep straight faced and stoic and like, you know, people didn't like her turn around talking to her parents.

2:09:12 I'm sorry. I'd be like turning to them 20,000 times in a day going. I need support here. Like looking for support like. Just looking for a friend. I wouldn't want to be judged for how I behave. In that but but but you do see in that documentary the difference and I've I found that that kind of graded me a little. Who she was in front of the jury and then like as she would speak to the camera, I just found her as someone who was wasn't overly likable. She's not likable. She's not likable at. All at one point she talks about the fact of like that she's great, she grieved John and now she's got a job.

2:09:44 She because I've got to fight for my life and there's an element of it that I can come at. Yep. But I can, I could not think of a way of decompartmentalizing where when you're going over all this in a court case where there wouldn't be moments that would be hard. Oh, and it would break you. Oh, for sure. And but then there's. Also, there's also that scene in the documentary where her lawyer basically said to her you can't react to anything because if you react in one way, it's interpreted this way.

2:10:13 If you react in react in another way, it'll be interpreted like this. You literally cannot react. So I don't know how you would. Do it. I don't know how you'd do that. I think you could take that on and and yeah, I would do my absolute best, but I'm sorry, but hearing things about John, about what happened to him and he how he was exposed to the cold and what that would have done to him. Yeah, the injuries and how that would have. I think we're getting down to that's that side of. Things, yeah, I don't.

2:10:38 Think you could sit there and not feel something I even. Feel like when? Because in the first trial the niece and nephew gave testimony, in the second trial it was just the niece, right? I think, I think even hearing them talk, because even just feeling how awful those poor kids, I mean, we haven't even touched on that. They've lost their mum and dad and now their uncle who was like their dad, you know, those poor bloody kids. I can't even imagine. I mean, they're, they're young teenagers or ones in their early 20s now, but I, I just, I can't even imagine those poor children.

2:11:13 Not at all. It really it actually that that. And if that can't get you even even though you're saying, yeah, OK, I've got a fight for my life now. I'm yeah, but. At the end of the day, you're human. That's gonna get you. Surely. Yeah, you had a relationship with those kids. Yeah, for two years. Yeah. Like, yeah, I found that a bit, yeah. And that's off. So something that came up more so in the second trial than the first was the location data and stuff. Oh yes, which I just want to touch on as. Well, go, go for it.

2:11:44 Because there's a lot in that that the prosecution used. And one element element was that his phone showed that he had never been indoors. Yeah. Now there is data in your phone that you can do that and it based, it's based on temperature, yeah. And obviously the temperatures where at this point, yeah, there would be a significant change. And as we were saying, that's right, The difference between outside in a Blizzard and inside in a warm home, yeah, it would have been massive. Yeah. Today, our temperature inside would probably be very.

2:12:14 Similar. It would be very similar. You wouldn't, it wouldn't be. But yeah, these conditions, I feel like that that is a very reliable. I. Fully data. Yep. Compared to what the defense used that data for, which they talked a lot about him having logged 80 steps after supposedly he exited the car, yes, going up three flight of stairs, yeah, there's all that sort of data that there was. But I just have to say, how accurate is your phone on that stuff? It's not very. I can actually give a bit of a bit of a tidbit.

2:12:47 So when we're in South Korea, you know, your phone tracks, obviously. So my friend was wearing a watch, right? And at the end of the day, I was just looking at my phone and I was like, I wonder how many steps or how far we've walked today, right? And mine said, oh, say it was like 18,000, something like that. My girlfriend, who was wearing her watch her, said we'd done 35,000 steps. Well, I mean, OK, part of me goes some people walk, have more steps than someone else in. Different gait yeah, that's fine.

2:13:18 But that's but not that that's different. So I'm like, well, my phone obviously had no. Idea often, like we'll go to like, say the zoo for the day with my kids yeah, and it's similar and like I always go like I I would do half as many steps as they would because one, my steps are bigger than their steps but also they walk in it, you know, yeah, like yeah. Yeah, they don't pass straight. They're here. They're they're everywhere. Yeah. They're running around like at lunchtime whilst I'm sitting having coffee, like you know, those sorts of things.

2:13:42 But yeah, so there's but there's definitely not. They're not. Each phone is different with that stuff. Not only that, like. I don't think it's reliable data is what we're saying. I, I've had like, I knew that my, I'd left my Airpods at home one day, but I was like, I want to just check right. So I got on and I checked my where they were. It said that they were in my next door neighbour's house. Yeah, right. And so I'm like, that's close enough here that I've clearly have I have left them at home.

2:14:07 I comfortable with that. My my neighbor has not stolen my. Airpods. Yeah, pretty sure, yeah. So whereas they use this data like down to that point of like saying like this is where he was located and stuff. And I just, and the 80 steps and things like him moving with being pushed back by the car could potentially equate to your phone going, oh, that's 80 steps, yeah. But the other thing is as well, the three flights of stairs, like there was a there were stairs up to the front door, but he would like regardless, he would have gone up the stairs if he even did, and then back down the stairs again.

2:14:44 No, that what the defence say is that it's it's actually the the steps because it's not necessarily just up. It just says going up or down flights of stairs. It calculates. Yeah, but what they say three flights. What are they saying? They go up into the front door? Yeah, down into the basement and then him coming back up to be put on the lawn.

2:15:05 OK. That's what they say because they reckon they have a hot They mapped this out entirely, OK, They reckoned it was. Yeah, up the front stairs, down the the basement, up the basement. And then they went out the back where there's no more stairs. Yeah, around out front, the side. Gate there. Yeah, OK. Dumped him on the lawn. Yeah, yeah, OK. Yeah, that's so that's how they equate the three flights of stairs. But I, I reckon, I know I've had days where I've looked at my data on my phone and I'm done the whole like, Oh my God, I feel like I've walked 1,000,000 miles and but done no stairs.

2:15:33 And it'll say I've done 10 flights of stairs and I have it. I've walked on a flat zoo or whatever for the day, you know, like, yeah, so. Yeah, I think. I think, yeah, again, what we're saying, unreliable data. We don't believe it. Like you can't, you can't hang a fucking murder case on this. No, no murder. Case, and that's where I was saying at the beginning about how like, I think we have too much data being brought into this like and stuff and too much information. Sometimes, see, this is where the judge should be like, no, you're not tendering that as evidence because it's not sound.

2:16:01 Yeah. This is it because they just bring just bring in their own express and they cancel each other out Exactly of the day. Which one am I supposed to believe? And it becomes too messy. And that's exactly what happened in this case. I can totally understand why the jury in the second trial acquitted her. I. Yes, and that's I was going to come to this too like yes, I actually as much as I've said today, I believe she did hit him. I believe she hit him with the car and she has fault here. However, I 100% believe due to the fact that the defence were a very good at their job, they have planted reasonable doubt and therefore she should have been acquitted.

2:16:43 Agreed. I do agree with that, yeah, the outcome was what it was purely based on very good defence. The theatrics of the of the court. They have found every and ultimately this falls back on the poor police work. If the police had done their job properly and they they get go. If these people weren't all police officers particularly manipulating some aspects of this, then the defence wouldn't have been able to pick apart so much I. Fully agree. Then we wouldn't have this issue. Yeah. And it would have been a more fair trial.

2:17:17 Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And again, as we spoke about the beginning, I 100% believe that if from the get go this was we think that you've hit him with the car, we don't think you've done it purposefully. We do think that this is what's caused his death. You do need to cop something for this. That's that it would be. Not like it's vehicular manslaughter, then. If you're driving under the influence and you kill someone, yeah, it's not intentional, but you've still done the wrong thing. And you were there.

2:17:49 Well, but did she even know? This is it. Did she know or not? That's a question, I guess, and I don't know whether if that's she would have potentially in that situation, you'd play your way to a deal a source, right of like whether what you're willing to admit to and what you would go with. But because and again, because I think he was a cop, there was an element of someone's got to go down for it because it's a cop who's been killed. He was not on duty. And I don't think that should change anyone's take on like, whether or not someone needs to be, you know, held accountable.

2:18:18 But he wasn't on duty. It wasn't in the line of fire that he was killed. So I don't know that the police should have gone so hard down on that of like, Nah, let's get her entirely for like, Nah, she intentionally did this. No, this was a, you know, she murdered him. That's where I think this has gone completely too far. Too far. Yeah, I I agree. I actually agree with all of what you're saying, I think. I think, although I'm pretty sure she did it and didn't know she'd done. It yeah, I I do maybe.

2:18:44 And that's where I think there's that. She's go, Oh my God, did I hit him? Yeah, because. She doesn't remember. She doesn't know. She even says to to to Jen the next morning. Like I don't even remember what happened last night. I think she's kind of. Gone. And if you're .29, of course you don't fucking remember. You'd black out like they'd. I'm sure they'd be blocking spots all throughout the night. Yeah, with that or I can also come out a slight slight where she's so drunk she knew she hit him, didn't know how hard and went buggy out.

2:19:12 Nah, you can stuffy. So I'm going like, and she's that cross and she's driven off and and in hindsight has gone, how hard did I actually hit him? Did he get back up? I didn't even look like I can come at that too. And that's that is little that's more culpable. Yeah. But still it it comes back to that how drunk you weren't driving and you should not have been fucking driving that car, No and drinking no. Go get drunk. Oh, fucking. By all means, get a taxi, yeah. Get an rebar. Yeah. Drink at home so you don't have to drive anywhere.

2:19:44 Yeah, Yeah. No, I'm, I, I, I I cannot come at drink driving regardless, even if it's no, just no. It's it's, it's a hard, hard no no. Definitely. You're not, you're not risking. It's not about you, you know, do you know what if you're going to drink and drive and it's you that gets, you know, injured, killed, whatever fucking on you, it's about everyone else on that road that you're causing. You're putting them in danger when they did nothing to be evolved. For sure. That's what I cannot, yeah. Yeah, agreed.

2:20:13 Yeah. All right. I think that kind of brings us to a little bit of a natural end. Here. Yeah, like. I mean, look, to be honest, I think we could probably talk around this for days and there is so much more evidence that was actually introduced that, you know, we could talk about. But there's lots of little things. And as you were saying before, all of the things are then counteracted. So they kind of end up being moot points anyway. I would and I'm sure you feel the same way. We would love to know what everyone thinks.

2:20:40 I feel like I'm in this. I'm like, I feel like I was at a when I was researching this, I was came at it from so much of the down for the conspiracy here for it. I I really think these people are pieces of shit. All of them in it. And then to flip by the end of this, I'm like, people are gonna be so angry with me. Nobody's gonna be angry. Yeah, they will. No. No, we're all entitled to our own opinions and as long as. They're in the comments. Let us know. Be respectful. Yeah, but let us know. We're super interested to know what you think.

2:21:06 Yeah, because. Everyone is very like fixed on these on this and everyone get has very strong opinions. Generally speaking, it's that she's innocent and I. Yeah, yeah, I'm with you. Look, I still find it hard to say Yes, I definitely think this happened because. Because everyone was drunk. Everyone was drunk. Exactly. That's it. So it's really hard to say, but yeah. Anyway, please let us know what you think. Join us over on Patreon if you want a bonus episode every month so you can join us at patreon.com.

2:21:37 Two crime besties all written out in one word. Next week we are talking about the killer cult and especially the death of a young girl by the name of Elizabeth Stews. Is that how you say the surname? Sorry if it's not I'll. I'll figure out the right pronunciation during the week. Thanks to everybody who has bought us a coffee, joined us over on Patreon, likes and comments. All of it really, really helps us and it is so very much appreciated by us. We just really feel like we're really building our community at the minute and it's, it's really fun.

2:22:11 Really, really fun for us. Crazy. Who thought who? To thunk it. All right. Well, I hope everybody has a great week. Yes, absolutely. Stay curious. Crime besties. Bye.