Episode 66 - Karen Read & John O'Keefe

0:15 Welcome back to Crime Besties. After a week's break, here we

0:19 are, another episode ready and raring to go.

0:21 Absolutely. We're ready and raring.

0:23 I'm feeling a little bit out of sorts.

0:25 I don't. Know same not practice enough

0:27 we've only had a week oh bit bit over a week off yeah but that's

0:30 OK yeah that's OK we'll we'll get back into it don't you worry

0:33 just. Loosen up.

0:35 That's right. How has your couple of weeks?

0:37 Oh. Come on, you have to go first.

0:39 Tell us about your couple of. Weeks.

0:40 Well, OK, I mean, if you insist. I went to South Korea and it was

0:48 phenomenal. Like it was.

0:50 Honestly, it is the hidden gem of Asia.

0:53 Everyone needs to put it on their list.

0:54 It is probably one of the best countries I've ever been to and

0:59 it was just extraordinary. It was everything I wanted it to

1:02 be and then some. Wow.

1:04 The food was great. It is so clean, it's really

1:08 safe, the people are beautiful and really welcoming of visitors

1:13 and guests. And it was just wonderful.

1:16 Like everything about it. There was not one thing I did

1:19 that I was like, oh, Nah, probably wouldn't do that again

1:22 or what? What have I gotten myself into

1:24 or anything like that. It was just yeah, phenomenal,

1:27 Absolutely phenomenal. Highly recommend it.

1:29 And although I didn't take my kids, I went like, girls trip.

1:35 Don't be jealous. There is.

1:39 You know, I would. I can't wait to take the kids

1:41 back there because there's so much for kids to do there.

1:44 It's really sort of set up well for that and it's so easy to get

1:47 around. Their public transport system's

1:49 incredible. Just so good.

1:51 So, so good. A highly highly, highly highly

1:54 recommend it. As I'm saying to you, our TikTok

1:56 feed has kind of been influenced by the factors like that on in

2:01 South Korea. And they're therefore like, I'm

2:02 getting like even just through there, like these clips and

2:05 things are like what to do in South Korea.

2:06 And looking at that, I was like, oh, like, this is not.

2:09 I don't know what I expected from South Korea.

2:10 It's just not a country that's ever been on my radar.

2:12 It's not. I don't know nothing about what

2:15 South Korea has to offer. Yeah.

2:16 You know, And like looking at the Tik Toks, I was like, oh

2:18 wow, now. I know shopping.

2:20 Oh, the shopping is amazing. Yeah.

2:22 They love a personalized item. So like, you go to any of the

2:25 stores there and you can personalize almost anything.

2:28 So like I brought the kids back some Nike T-shirts and you can

2:32 get them all personalized and Nike caps.

2:36 They love a sporting brand. So all of that sort of stuff.

2:40 Even just they have these underground markets that are

2:43 sort of you get off the subway and they're sort of at the

2:45 subway station. Yeah.

2:47 And it's market as far as the eye can see, just like

2:51 kilometers of it. My dream.

2:53 And the food, like there's food, there's clothes.

2:56 Like the clothes are even just beautiful.

2:58 They're in so well priced and it's not, it's not dirt cheap.

3:03 It's not like going to Bali, No, but it's way cheaper than

3:06 Australia. And I'm guessing quality,

3:07 though, excellent quality. Bali is great for how cheap it

3:10 is, but, you know, that T-shirt gets a hole in it pretty quick.

3:12 Yeah, actually. And that sort of stuff.

3:13 So yeah, you pay for what you get.

3:15 Like, yeah. Yeah, yeah, good quality stuff.

3:18 And yeah, the food was amazing. I did not eat one thing that I

3:23 was like, oh, not yeah. I mean, I'm pretty, you're

3:25 pretty adventurous. Pretty adventurous with my

3:27 eating. But even still, like my

3:29 youngest, as I'm sure everyone who's been listening for a long

3:31 time knows, he's so fussy. Yeah.

3:33 I feel like everywhere we went there was something that I know

3:36 he would eat because, I mean, they love a fried chicken and

3:38 he'll eat fried chicken. Yeah.

3:40 OK. Or like even just like plain

3:41 rice or sort of like a stir fried rice or something.

3:45 They had that. But we we had so many soups and

3:48 it was just a mate just so good. So no good.

3:51 Yeah. So if it's on your list, guys,

3:53 yeah, get on there. Yeah, that.

3:55 Yeah, yeah. What have you been up to?

3:58 Oh, just the usual, you know, the routine of it all.

4:00 Yeah. Like, not really good.

4:04 No, I mean, we've had school holidays here, so I've, you

4:06 know, got to hang out because we went away for a few nights and

4:08 so which was really good. It's always good to get away and

4:11 yeah, do those sorts of fun things that you don't ordinary

4:13 do. Actually, I I've brought back a

4:16 love of mine that I'm now determined I'm going to do more.

4:19 Of oh, tell me. Yeah, I've always been really

4:21 into ceramics and doing pottery. Yeah, and I absolutely love it.

4:26 When we were away, there was this pottery place that we went

4:28 to that was, it was like an artist's commune, kind of

4:31 almost. It was lots of different artists

4:32 that you could go and check out their work and things.

4:34 But there was like an area where the kids got to, you know, glaze

4:37 their own item, which we're still waiting on getting

4:39 delivered. Oh yeah, and.

4:40 Stuff from where? We were and but they they also

4:42 gave them like a thing of clay to like work with as well, which

4:46 was air dry clay. So, you know, just took that

4:48 with you and Oh my God, I was so therapeutic sitting there, you

4:51 know, constructing things and that and the and the boys were

4:54 like really impressed with my. Skills.

4:55 So I felt really good about myself, yeah.

4:59 And if your kids are impressed, you know, it must be impressive.

5:02 Like, it takes a bit. Yeah.

5:05 So yeah, no, it was really, really nice.

5:07 All of it with well, actually there's four of us sitting there

5:10 that we're all doing it together, that we all like

5:11 walked away going Oh my God, I just feel really good about

5:13 myself right now, like. Oh, how good is.

5:15 Calm. Yeah.

5:16 So I'm like, no, I really need to do some pottery.

5:19 I need to get nice. To play in my life.

5:22 Yep, whether I do a class or whether I get it at home and do

5:25 the air dry thing or whatever, that just.

5:27 Well, scratch that. Itch, you know.

5:29 The friend of the podcast, Talia, Oh yeah, is begin to her

5:34 pottery. Maybe I need to get her to, to

5:36 have a chat with you because she'd make some amazing stuff.

5:40 Oh, I need to. And she goes, she's sort of, I

5:43 think now she might even have a kiln at home.

5:46 I think maybe, I'm not sure, don't quote me on that, but she

5:49 does a lot of it at home and she's been, you know, selling

5:51 her stuff at markets and stuff. I'm certainly not that, but.

5:55 Oh, I reckon, I mean, you know, just takes a bit of practice and

5:59 and you'll be there, just you. Know make a few pinch pots,

6:02 that's all good. So her Instagram handle is yeah,

6:07 at little Box of Chaos, all one word.

6:10 So check her out. She'd make some really, really

6:12 cool stuff. She's very, very talented.

6:15 Amazing. Yeah, yeah.

6:16 So yeah, definitely. I, I see the appeal of it,

6:19 although I just don't feel like my artistic skills really match.

6:22 So I I'd have a vision of what I wanted to do and I just don't

6:25 think I'd be able to execute. It oh, how do you put No, keep

6:28 it simple, stupid. OK, it's my my absolute

6:30 philosophy of life isn't. It.

6:32 But definitely when it comes to clay, absolutely cause simple is

6:35 or I mean yeah no, I just made really simple that little is

6:38 like pinch pots. Okay, but you just, it's just a

6:40 bit of technique you need with it.

6:41 Yeah, but the yeah, I've made the boys each one for various

6:45 things that they, they both have their brodies, like gotta

6:48 obsession with crystals. So I've made him one that's big

6:50 enough to keep certain crystals in and made Mason one for his

6:53 loop earbuds and stuff to keep the the case for that and cool.

6:57 Yeah, but they were like, but they're really, they're just so

6:59 simple. But they're really lovely.

7:01 Like they're nice. So I can't wait to see them

7:02 finish. I wanted to do it.

7:04 Trust me, it's just therapeutic, the actual approach.

7:08 Really, it was just the, it was just, yeah, the best couple of

7:11 hours. It really was.

7:12 Oh, that's so nice. So wholesome mix.

7:14 I know. What is that?

7:16 Was wine involved? No, but I'm planning on doing

7:19 that for our breakup actually for the end of year.

7:20 I'm like, oh sweet, it was actually a fair one called like,

7:23 was it called Merlo and mud, Mud and Merlo.

7:25 Yeah, like, I mean, I mean, you had me.

7:27 You had me at Merlo, actually, that's a great idea.

7:32 Yeah. So I think that's I'm totally

7:34 obsessed. Now done all right, happy with

7:36 that. Lock it in.

7:37 Lock it in, Eddie. Absolutely.

7:39 All right. I've got a few.

7:40 I've actually got quite a few shout outs this week because

7:44 we've had that little bit of a break and I think as a result of

7:47 that we've had lots of Patreons join us.

7:49 I haven't. Been mad so it's.

7:51 Thanks to everybody who's signed up first of all to Nicole

7:55 Murrell, Stacy, Nikki, Egan, Lane Appleby, Leanne Robinson,

8:02 Michelle Vell Beck, Hannah Knoll, Bree, Alexandra Griffith

8:08 and Anna from Sweden, Sweden. So thank you to everybody for

8:15 joining us. It really it really, really,

8:17 really means a lot. Every time that ping comes up on

8:20 my phone to say that somebody's joined us, I get a little like

8:23 flutter, like it just really, I can't tell you how much we

8:27 appreciate it the. Fact that people are willing to

8:29 like literally put their good hard earned money across like to

8:31 go like we want to support them. It's just incredibly.

8:35 It's very humbling. Very humbling, yeah.

8:37 It's mad. I'm like, it really motivates us

8:39 like to get, you know, keep putting this out because people

8:41 are clearly into it. Whichever I I keep questioning

8:45 myself on that. No I clearly this is working.

8:49 It's working. We'll keep going with.

8:51 It going like you guys want it. We'll we're there and like and

8:54 Patreon's we're getting more involved and actively over there

8:57 now that we're you know, coming. We're only new to this yes, and

9:00 I have to say like I'm still working out even how it all

9:02 functions and where the comments come in and then how to keep

9:05 track of it all. So I mean we're, we're, you

9:07 know, we're going to build up what we do in there and we've

9:09 already been planning a little bit more of what we what we will

9:11 present over there and some got some great fun things I think

9:14 coming. Yeah.

9:14 Do you say? Yeah, it'll be fun.

9:15 It's. Going to get great, so come and

9:17 join us. If you'd like, that'll be great.

9:19 We also have some really great comments on insta DMS we had.

9:24 We actually had 10 PM sisters and a country mum again a couple

9:28 of times over the last month or so, you know, tag us in their

9:32 stories and get, you know, recommend us to other people.

9:35 So thanks for that guys. And to Sherry, Hope Hennessy,

9:39 gorgeous comment to us. Thank you.

9:41 And then we had a comment from Katherine W, 66, from Germany,

9:47 who found us because she was looking for an English language

9:50 podcast to learn English. Wear that one for you.

9:54 Just don't don't necessarily copy all our work or do or do

9:59 well. If you wanna be the cool kid.

10:03 Having having said that though, an Australian accent's quite an

10:06 acquired taste, so if you learn based.

10:10 On other words around and I don't know.

10:12 So if you, yeah, if you're speaking to anybody who's not

10:15 Australian and you say something that and they kind of give you a

10:17 weird look, you'll know that must be an Australianism, yeah.

10:21 Oh my gosh, we can teach all sorts of things.

10:24 It was really funny, actually. When we're in South Korea, just

10:26 really quickly, not a lot of English is spoken there.

10:30 Yeah. Oh, the younger people, yes.

10:32 But, you know, restaurants and stuff, there's not sometimes not

10:35 a lot of people who speak English necessarily.

10:37 Yeah. And I so it really made me

10:41 conscious when I heard English. Yeah.

10:44 What it sounds like. Do you know what I mean?

10:46 I do. And, you know, so there are a

10:48 lot of American. Well, a lot of the English

10:51 accents that we heard were American accents.

10:53 Yeah. Or that's a certain type of.

10:55 Sound. It's hard.

10:56 It can. It's a very harsh kind of sound,

10:59 especially against Korean. Absolutely.

11:01 But then I'm like, I just feel like we against Korean or

11:04 against any other language. It just sounds so bogan.

11:08 I'll never forget a moment where I thought I was doing the right

11:11 thing and I was in France and I said silver plays, you know?

11:17 Yeah, civil play and. The person looked at me and in a

11:21 French accent, which is the weirdest thing ever to then try

11:24 and do an Aussie accent. Yeah came back at me and just

11:26 went oh what silver plate mate? And I'm like.

11:30 I'm like dude, was it that obvious?

11:32 I was like, I thought it was so good.

11:35 Picked it immediately. Yeah.

11:37 And I'm like, Oh my God, like. Okay, shame on me.

11:41 The French hate it when you butcher their accent too though.

11:43 He was really nice about it. He was we was having a joke with

11:46 me, but the same time I'm like. What?

11:48 I did was trying really hard when when I was a kid.

11:51 We lived in the States for a little while and obviously we

11:54 had still had Australian accents, although when we came

11:58 back to Australia, everyone thought we had American accents.

12:00 Anyway, it was a mishmash of whatever, but I remember my

12:03 brother and I was standing in the line at A, at a, I don't

12:06 know, we were getting buying something and we were talking to

12:09 one another. And this woman behind us goes,

12:11 excuse me, are you speaking German?

12:14 Yeah, and we were like. No, no, we're actually speaking

12:17 English. So I'm like, yeah, it's, it's a

12:21 the Australian accents are very particular type.

12:23 Yeah, but it's basically Americans don't really get that

12:26 there's really beyond themselves.

12:27 Not much. So I mean, no offense for the

12:29 Americans who, you know, listen to us.

12:31 I know we do have a few, but yeah.

12:33 So they they don't pick up the accents as much, I don't reckon.

12:37 And also I've had actually legitimately an American say to

12:39 me when they said, oh, where are you from?

12:41 And I'm like, oh, Australia. And they're like, oh, yeah, of

12:43 course. Like, you know, I mean Austria,

12:45 you know, like and I'm like, no, no, Australia.

12:47 And like, it's not until you say to them things like the one with

12:49 the the Kangaroos, yeah, that they register sometimes, yeah.

12:54 Yeah. All right.

12:56 Let's get into today's case. Yes, well, because this is a

12:59 huge case. It's a big one.

13:01 And this is something that's, I mean, it's still in the media

13:03 now. It is so it will be for I think

13:05 for a. Very long, a very, very long

13:07 time. It's sort of like almost one of

13:08 those cases that has defined our era in a way, because there's so

13:12 much about it and so much nuance to it.

13:14 And look, I don't even think we're going to be able to cover

13:17 everything today because there will be stuff.

13:19 Oh, we will, for sure. Yeah.

13:21 But we're today talking about the Karen Reid case, and it is

13:25 only ever referred to as the Karen Reid case whenever you.

13:29 Alone. Poor John O'Keefe, the person

13:30 who? Actually died in this but anyway

13:33 so that's what we're talking about today it is fascinating

13:37 there are so many characters involved it's pretty complex

13:40 yeah so we're gonna do our best to kind of keep everything on

13:43 track we'll. Try and narrow down the amount

13:45 of people we talk about a little bit.

13:47 So we'll try and chill that, keep that chill, but as best we

13:50 can. And yeah, yeah.

13:51 I mean, you have to introduce certain characters because

13:54 they're so pertinent to to what happens.

13:56 We will refer to most people by their first and second names

13:58 because we have a lot of same first names, yeah.

14:01 And then science names same surnames.

14:03 Yeah, a lot of Brian's, a lot of.

14:04 Brian's too many Brian's It's my head in, we get.

14:08 To Massachusetts, I guess that's what we get, is Brian.

14:12 Oh, God, we do the Boston accent again.

14:14 No. Oh.

14:14 My God, no, we can't. We can't.

14:17 But it is such a particular Speaking of accents, that is

14:20 such a particular accent. And yeah, I mean, obviously

14:23 having researched this, we've been listening to a lot of

14:25 Bostonian accents. What's?

14:26 In there even where they I mean, I find that really interesting

14:29 that yeah, Boston, if you're we're actually talking in

14:31 Canton, which is South sort of I think in Massachusetts still,

14:34 but in it's further South than Boston and the accent isn't as

14:38 intense at all like it's. But they've still got that

14:40 twang, yeah? But it's it's not quite the

14:42 same, is it? Like it's really.

14:44 Oh, it's interesting How, Yeah. I mean, I don't know.

14:47 Do they hear it like the difference?

14:49 I don't. Know surely they do.

14:50 Surely. Yeah.

14:51 Like it's it's a very particular accent.

14:54 Yeah. You know, let's get into it.

14:56 So Karen A Reed was born on the 26th of February 1980 in

15:00 Blacksburg, VA, near the border of West Virginia and not too far

15:05 from North Carolina. Mm hmm.

15:07 She when she was a child, she moved from Virginia to Taunton,

15:10 MA with her parents and her. She had a brother and a sister

15:15 and they basically lived in a really nice little area.

15:19 They lived in a court in a cul-de-sac and lived a very sort

15:24 of idyllic childhood. Mm hmm.

15:26 She went to the local high school and she also finished

15:32 off, I believe her high schooling at a Catholic like

15:36 semi private high school. She was apparently quite a good

15:41 student, a standout like some of her teachers said.

15:43 She was a real standout. She was very academic and very

15:46 focused at school, and she was amazing at the piano.

15:50 Apparently she was such a such a prolific piano player.

15:54 Wow. Yeah.

15:54 So that's just a little bit about her very early childhood.

15:58 After high school, she enrolled at Bentley University at the

16:03 private Business School there in Waltham, MA.

16:07 And while she was there, she earned a bachelor's and a

16:10 master's degree in finance. And then so after after sort of

16:16 doing that, she actually then became an adjunct professor at

16:20 that university and would teach there as part of one of her

16:25 jobs, I guess. And then her other job was

16:27 working in the finance sector. Yeah.

16:30 So she had a very lucrative career.

16:34 I think she's very well off in terms of what she was able to

16:38 afford. She was never married and never

16:40 had children of her own. Didn't really have any interest

16:43 in that. She was very career driven.

16:45 Yeah, yeah. And happy to not have kids,

16:48 yeah. Yeah, that's it.

16:49 So I guess the other main player in this story or in this event,

16:55 yeah, Yeah. Was John O'Keefe.

16:57 He was born on the 8th of December in 1975.

16:59 So he was five years older than Karen and he was a Boston police

17:04 officer. Now, he had a bit of AI guess, a

17:07 tragic sort of later life in terms of closer towards when he

17:12 ended up passing. But again, I think he had a very

17:17 typical Bostonian upbringing. There was nothing sort of stand

17:19 out there. His parents, you know, brought

17:22 up now what siblings did he have?

17:24 Had a brother and a sister. He had a brother and a sister

17:26 as. Oh, yes, of course.

17:27 Yeah. And unfortunately, his sister

17:31 actually passed away. She and her husband had two

17:34 children, a son and a daughter. This will become relevant.

17:37 Yeah. And she passed away.

17:40 And then literally three months later, the husband passed away

17:43 of a heart attack. Broken heart maybe?

17:45 It must have been like 3 months later, those poor children.

17:48 So that left the so John's niece and nephew, yeah, completely

17:53 orphaned. So John actually took them on

17:56 and adopted them. Well, he was.

17:59 There wasn't really a plan in place for like that.

18:01 And he was incredibly close to his sister.

18:03 Yeah. And people sort of say that, you

18:05 know, when he passed, he was just like, well, I'm taking the

18:08 kids, apparently. Even when she passed he was like

18:13 he changed his work schedule to be able to help out his

18:16 brother-in-law in raising the kids.

18:18 Like he really stepped up. Yeah, he really was he was

18:21 connected to them from a very young age.

18:23 It like because I say his and his sister had such a close

18:26 relationship that he was just part of their lives a lot

18:28 anyway. And then when she fell, I'll he

18:31 really, he stepped in there and then and then passed when she

18:34 after she passed. But yeah, when, when he, when

18:36 he, when their father passed away as well, He was like, well,

18:39 that's it. I'm, I'm gonna take the kids.

18:40 I'm gonna, you know, and, and obviously had his support of his

18:42 brother and his, his parents as well to, you know, help him out

18:45 with that. But he was like, there's no

18:46 question here. It's what I'm gonna do.

18:48 And again, changed his work work.

18:51 So he went and he requested to have a desk job because that was

18:54 safer for him because he didn't want these kids to have to be

18:58 impacted again and worry about something else happening,

19:01 somebody significant again in their life.

19:03 So what a kind, you know, what a kind uncle.

19:07 And apparently he was a Funkle. Yeah.

19:09 You know, my brother thinks he's a Funkle.

19:12 He is, but. And apparently he was.

19:15 Have you seen any of the Tik Toks they did together?

19:18 Oh, no. Oh, my God.

19:20 You can go and just see them. Check it out.

19:21 Yeah, go and check it out because it is.

19:23 They are actually so funny. And he instigates a lot of them.

19:27 Yeah. And they're like, there's one

19:29 that that I saw a couple of times when I was looking this

19:32 stuff up. Yeah.

19:33 And it's John with his arms behind his back.

19:36 And then his nephew is pretending.

19:38 To be his arm, actually. And things like that, like, it's

19:41 very, very funny. And you can just see that the

19:43 kids and, hey, they're so relaxed with each other.

19:46 Yeah. They're comfortable in each

19:47 other's presence. Like those kids have been

19:49 through so much trauma and to have the support of their uncle

19:53 who obviously loved them just as much as a parent would.

19:55 Yes, I think lucky those kids at that time.

19:58 It's probably also worth noting that John.

20:00 One never had children of his own either.

20:01 No. So they were it for him.

20:03 Yeah. And they really were.

20:05 Yeah, they were. They were his world.

20:07 He was. So committed to them.

20:08 Yeah, so John and and Karen first crossed paths fairly early

20:14 on. They crossed paths originally in

20:16 2004. They were date, they did date

20:18 briefly at this time. So this is pre, you know, he's

20:22 potentially than the kids being born, I think, let alone, you

20:24 know, having him having them as as his.

20:27 Oh well and truly. Yeah, so, yeah, but he but so

20:30 Karen was, they were dating briefly, but she ended up

20:32 getting for work a role over in Ireland.

20:35 So it was, she said that at the time it was just, it wasn't even

20:37 a foregone. It wasn't even like a question.

20:40 She was gonna go. They just broke up.

20:41 Like it was not. And it was amicable in that

20:43 sense of like there was no argument that they were like,

20:45 you know, splitting up. It was just, well, my job's in

20:47 Ireland. I've gotta go.

20:48 OK, so this is over. So yeah, she went to Ireland.

20:52 I think she spent like a year over there, came back and yeah,

20:55 and both of them just moved on with their lives.

20:56 It wasn't any, wasn't nothing. No animosity or anything.

20:59 Just a blip in, you know, obviously dating life and.

21:01 Things like that. That's it.

21:02 No issue. But then again, once we hit the

21:05 pandemic in 2020, people at home bored.

21:10 And there's John. What do you do?

21:11 What do you do? John was single, he had these

21:14 two kids that he was raising, but still, you know, a voice

21:17 obviously who doesn't want someone in their life,

21:18 especially when you're home alone, like kind of stuff.

21:20 He actually put out on Facebook messages to a number of contact,

21:24 ex girlfriends and contacts and just so happened that Karen was

21:27 one of them that he reached out to.

21:30 So I mean, you know, play in the field.

21:32 Very much so. And Karen responded.

21:35 You know, so they started talking and that sort of sparked

21:38 back a bit of a relationship, so.

21:40 Well, she said as well at that time because she was single and

21:43 she was living on her own. Yeah, she was seeking

21:47 companionship as well. So like, this was a mutually

21:51 beneficial thing. And look, as you said, there was

21:53 no animosity towards each other because when they broke up.

21:57 So she was curious, like. And she actually said to him

22:00 like, oh, I see you've got two kids.

22:01 And he explained that situation. She was like, my God, what an

22:04 amazing guy. So that indeed him to her as

22:09 well. And yeah, that kind of got

22:11 things moving along again. Yeah.

22:13 So the relationship started from that, from obviously living in

22:16 isolation, sort of communicating, but then built

22:19 from there. But the like, relationship

22:22 wasn't perfect, you know, but not no relationship is like,

22:24 let's be honest, they would argue in things, but the thing

22:28 that they would argue the most over was the kids.

22:31 And it wasn't was not a situation of, you know, her not

22:33 wanting the kids around. She actually became quite close

22:35 to the kids. And the biggest thing that argue

22:37 over was the fact that John was the parent.

22:41 Karen was, I guess Karen was playing well, not even his step

22:43 parent almost. She was like she enjoyed their

22:46 company and enjoyed doing things with them that she was more like

22:49 the fun auntie. Yeah, right.

22:52 No, that does not. Sound right, You know, in that

22:55 she would do fun things with them and then he would have to

22:58 be the bad guy was what was always the issue like?

23:00 He even sent messages to her to that effect.

23:03 But yeah, look, I think she was in a pretty tough situation in

23:07 that way because not only these kids, as we said, had been

23:10 through the trauma of losing both of their parents.

23:12 Yeah, moving in with their uncle.

23:13 And even though he was great, that's still a big deal for

23:16 young children. I think in a way, like he he

23:19 recognized that in a lot in that he was like, look, I understand

23:22 these kids have been through a lot and everyone else then

23:24 treats them too nicely, like in that they've still got to have

23:27 boundaries. They've still got to, you know,

23:29 be right, taught the right things.

23:30 And I get that too. I think he's right.

23:32 Yeah. So, but at the same time,

23:35 bringing in some someone else into that relationship is always

23:38 going to be. Complicated, I mean step

23:40 parenting it. The best of times is really

23:42 complicated. But Karen would do a lot for

23:45 them. So if John was working, she'd

23:47 take them to their sporting events.

23:48 She would, you know, help out with the bake sales at school.

23:52 She she was very she was. Really hands on, really

23:54 involved. They did live separately.

23:57 They weren't living together, but they would often be at each

24:00 other's houses so that the kids were, you know, obviously his

24:03 place was sort of the base, I guess.

24:04 And she would, but she would come and go from, she wasn't

24:06 living there permanently. She had a right place.

24:09 Very nice place, very nice. Yeah.

24:12 So, but I guess that's where they're, they're beyond the

24:16 Karen Reid, John O'Keefe sort of scenario in their little world.

24:21 The kids then breached, sort of brought them into this other

24:24 world where they met Jen McCabe and Oh my God, now I'm going to

24:28 get what's her, his, his name, her husband.

24:33 Oh my God, Matt, Matt. Oh.

24:36 My God, yeah. It's it's hard to keep track of

24:39 everyone. With Jenna, Matt McCabe, both

24:41 they had children and they were actually playing with their John

24:45 O'keefe's niece and their daughter played soccer together.

24:48 So Jen McCabe and Karen became like, quite friendly through

24:52 going to soccer practice. Yeah, twice a week plus a game.

24:55 You know, as we all know, you get to know each other.

24:57 It's how you meet nice mum friends.

25:00 So, yeah, so they sort of started to get to know each

25:03 other and became quite friendly and obviously the the link there

25:06 then a lot of like John O'Keefe being a police officer, Matt

25:09 McCabe knew many other others that were police officers and

25:12 they all sort of mixed and mingled around with each other

25:14 and it's. So intertwined.

25:16 Of each others and had, yeah, had had, you know, mutual

25:20 friends and all these sorts of things between them.

25:22 So became this this whole new world, I guess, of other people

25:27 they were branching out to through them by the kids.

25:29 Yeah, that's it. Yeah.

25:30 Yeah, it certainly opened up a new world for especially, I

25:34 think for Karen, because I, I guess being the police officer

25:39 that he was, John was already kind of involved with that, with

25:42 these people in a social sense. Yeah, Karen's then kind of come

25:45 into that. And so she wasn't as closely

25:47 attached to everyone as as John was, but certainly this which

25:51 she was expanding sort of her social circle into.

25:54 Yeah, all of these people. And my God, what a complex web

25:58 of people that is. And a really interesting group

26:03 of people, yeah, like when I think of like Boston and

26:07 Massachusetts in general, I guess, like, you do have an

26:11 understanding of the sort of lifestyle they lead, I guess.

26:13 Like this is not unusual. I don't think this group of

26:16 people. No, I don't know what.

26:17 I mean, that's a fairly standard, yeah.

26:20 Enjoy a drink. Yeah, I think that's, I don't

26:24 want to generalize, but I'm going to.

26:28 I think police officers and I feel like maybe even, you know,

26:32 it may be changing now. And I'm talking 2025 recently

26:35 now maybe. But even still, I think police

26:38 officers, you know, they often will debrief at a bar or at a

26:42 pub or I think. It's been a male world, yeah,

26:45 and that's kind of been where men have been.

26:48 Well, I know, I know how to do that.

26:50 I know our great mate Ron Idols talks about the fact that, you

26:53 know, something shit had happened at work.

26:56 Yeah, and you wouldn't talk about it.

26:57 You'd just go and have a couple of beers at the pub and move on

27:00 with it sort of thing. So you know.

27:02 Isn't actually therapy people? Oh, no, no, no, no, no.

27:04 We're not suggesting by any means that it is.

27:06 So look, there's healthier ways to deal with it, that's for

27:09 sure. And Ron certainly says that, you

27:11 know, he's a big advocate for, you know, positive mental health

27:15 access for police officers and other emergency respondents.

27:19 However, you know, I think there is a culture of this.

27:22 And certainly by the sounds of it in Massachusetts, in Boston,

27:25 it's exactly the same because they bonded and would catch up

27:30 at these bars all the time. This wasn't an what we're going

27:34 to talk about. This was.

27:35 Very much a regular. It was regular.

27:37 It was that day. Night.

27:37 Exactly. Yeah.

27:39 Yeah. So should we talk about are we

27:41 ready the the day? All right.

27:44 So basically this was, this all kind of took place on the 28th,

27:49 29th of January in 2022. Yeah.

27:52 So it was an unprecedented weather front was coming in with

27:58 a Blizzard basically, and the most snow the Boston, Boston had

28:02 seen in years. Yeah, years and years.

28:05 I think it was like 8 years or something.

28:07 They hadn't seen a snow, a snowstorm so significant they

28:11 were expecting up to 5 feet of snow.

28:15 Like, you think how tall I stand, and that's basically like

28:17 I'm 5, four. Yeah.

28:18 It's like that much snow. Yeah.

28:20 In a snow, in a storm to come, you can't even imagine.

28:22 It from it, I mean living in a country where that's just not we

28:26 struggle to get snow on our snow fields.

28:27 Yeah. So I mean, I, I always, always

28:31 relate this to the fact of like people in Australia, depending

28:34 on where you live, usually Melbourne where we are get sort

28:37 of considered like, you know, oh, it's a freezing in

28:39 Melbourne, it's so cold in Melbourne.

28:41 We sort of get shat on a bit by every other state of like, you

28:43 know, that we, we live in. Because every other other state

28:45 has beautiful sunshine. Sunshine of the Year. 24/7

28:48 right, but because we get the odd, you know, grey overcast day

28:51 like we're. The more than the odd one.

28:55 More than the old one, but. And we get Four Seasons in a

28:57 day. Yeah, But not only that, like,

28:59 people do complain, you know, it's cold.

29:01 We don't know what cold is. I've got no idea you.

29:04 Know yes we get an 8° day you know we get up in the morning

29:06 you're driving to work and it gets to -1 oh like that's the

29:10 worst thing in the world that's. Literally the coldest again.

29:13 Lately, like that's, that's that's a balmy day some for some

29:16 people. And -1 So we do not live in a

29:18 cold part of the world. Yeah.

29:21 We don't even know what that. I think, I think the night that

29:24 this incident took place, it was something like -22° yeah.

29:27 Celsius, Celsius or Fahrenheit, Celsius, Celsius.

29:30 Wow. I think it crosses over at -4

29:32 Oh, yeah, you're right. So it'd be pretty serious.

29:36 Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

29:37 Like it's that's, that's bloody cold.

29:40 Yeah. Are they not really wearing

29:42 much? No.

29:43 And this. Is what's closed my mind like I

29:45 mean, but I know having, you know, I was in the States, I was

29:49 in Washington for a while. And when you go into an

29:53 establishment, it is hot. Yeah, they're well, so you have

29:56 to like take every layer and everything off and you basically

29:59 can wear, you know, T-shirt and jeans inside it, so.

30:01 But you take extra clothing of. Course.

30:04 Absolutely, Yeah. These guys don't seem to do

30:07 that. Like, yeah, whereas, I mean to

30:08 me, yeah. But then.

30:08 I'm like, do they have better high tech clothes that you know,

30:11 they're not taking the bulky jackets Because I don't know.

30:13 I don't know. They've, well, no, I'd say no.

30:15 What occurs here? Yeah, that's true.

30:17 Yeah, that's very true. Yeah.

30:18 All right. So on the night of the 28th of

30:23 January in 2022, they knew this Blizzard was coming in.

30:26 So they just. And what basically would mean

30:29 then is that everyone would be snowed in for a week or so.

30:32 Yeah. And so they need, you know, they

30:34 thought, all right, well, let's just have one quick last hurrah

30:36 down at the at the. Power like knowing that that's

30:39 what was coming. They were all very.

30:41 Calm and calm. About it and not really worrying

30:43 too much about. It I just feel like maybe

30:46 they're like doomsday preppers and they're already sorted to

30:48 it, you know, and they had the water and the batteries and

30:51 everything you would need for if this was gonna happen at home

30:54 and let's just go for it. Yeah, I guess that's maybe what

30:57 it is, because I know, well, Karen Reed and John had actually

30:59 had an argument prior to this. And throughout the day we're

31:01 texting each other about this. But in Karen, the back of

31:04 Karen's mind was the fact that, yeah, this Blizzard was coming,

31:07 that she really want to be on her on her own at home.

31:09 So as much as she's having an argument with John, she's like,

31:11 yeah, but I kind of want to go and stay at John's and be with

31:14 him. And.

31:15 And this is, I mean, real relationship entirely to me in

31:18 that fact of like, yeah, even though I'm fighting with him,

31:21 I'd rather be with him. Yeah, than be alone.

31:24 For the town in my own house. So yeah, potentially would be to

31:28 see each other. For a week or so.

31:30 But Karen said she couldn't remember whether her dad called

31:33 her or whether she called her dad right before she ended up

31:36 going up to and told her dad that that, oh, we've had this

31:41 fight and I don't know what to do because this storm's coming

31:43 and I want to go, but he's pissing me off, so I don't

31:46 really want to go. Yeah.

31:47 And her dad apparently said to her quite gently, I think you

31:50 should just stay at home. I think just give it some space

31:53 that week or whatever it'll be is probably a good thing.

31:56 Yeah. But she said she then decided,

31:58 got off the phone with him, kind of considered it, and then went,

32:01 no, I'm gonna go. I'm gonna say, always listen to

32:04 your dad. Always, always.

32:06 Because imagine we wouldn't be talking about this if it wasn't

32:09 for that. Not at all.

32:11 So shortly after midnight, Karen, John and a group of their

32:17 friends went to the Waterfall Bar and Grill in Canton.

32:21 Yeah, so they've been at another.

32:23 Yeah, just across the restaurant.

32:25 Restaurant bar across the road they'd have and they'd had many

32:28 drinks there and then moved across to the waterfall.

32:30 Yeah, because it was open later, Later, OK.

32:33 And look it from all accounts and certainly the prosecutors

32:38 say that and there's video evidence that Karen had been

32:42 partaking in, in drinking certainly throughout the night,

32:45 I think. At least on camera, they could

32:47 pick up that she'd had at least nine drinks.

32:48 Yeah. And like, we don't know whether

32:50 they were double shots in those drinks.

32:51 Singles, we don't know. And at one stage, she does have

32:54 a drink and then pours a shot into it.

32:57 Yeah. And I've heard people say that.

32:59 So I don't think we have this rule here in Australia.

33:01 I don't know. I've never.

33:02 I've never experienced because I don't order more than a double

33:05 at any point. It would be God no.

33:08 But yeah, there's a limit of how many you can order.

33:11 Like you can order a triple, but you can't order a quadruple.

33:14 OK. So like what people do is order

33:17 a triple and then and a shot and pull a shot in.

33:20 So we don't know. I guess that makes sense because

33:23 like if you're thinking responsible service of alcohol,

33:25 there's probably a limit of how much alcohol you can serve in

33:28 one drink. Yeah, I know if you're.

33:30 Providing a shot on the side, I'm the same same.

33:32 Totally. Well, I know we used to serve a

33:34 particular drink that was called an attitude adjuster and

33:37 certainly did adjust your attitude.

33:40 Oh, what was in it? Contra vodka, Bacardi.

33:46 Oh, and one other. OH, on a Red Bull.

33:48 OH, so it must have been triple in it.

33:51 Yeah, we were only allowed to serve people one.

33:54 Yeah, OK. But there were people who would.

33:56 Try it. Try again.

33:57 And we had to call an ambulance 1 so let's just call that.

34:00 Oh Jesus Christ. Yeah, Oh my God.

34:02 Stop serving serving them. Yeah, OK.

34:04 Yeah, yeah, they were pretty. I feel like the Red Bull would

34:06 tip. Me, if nothing else.

34:08 Yeah. Because the Red Bull would.

34:09 Yeah, because that was what got me heart.

34:10 Goal. Yeah, exactly.

34:11 Oh yeah, No thanks. Because people would just stay

34:13 on them. Oh.

34:13 God, no Yacht. Yeah, yeah, Yep.

34:16 So anyway that so as you said Karen, I think she might have

34:20 had five drinks at the 1st place and they think 4 at the second,

34:23 but I think that extra shot thing happened at the 2nd place

34:26 at the waterfall. And some people look out there,

34:28 'cause there's the thing, there's lots of theories on all

34:29 these shit. Let's like say that.

34:32 Well, you can. You can.

34:33 You can find anything that you want to back up your case in.

34:36 This Oh, I do believe that too. So, yeah.

34:39 So a lot of people say like, oh, but it could have been water.

34:41 I'm sorry, what water is getting?

34:42 A lemon or lime, you know, garnish on the side?

34:45 Swizzled into it. Yeah, yeah.

34:47 Yeah, I don't think they're waters.

34:49 No, no. And the way she was drinking

34:50 them, too, like you're down to water, you don't sip a water.

34:53 Yeah. And anyway, she says she didn't

34:56 even drink her last drink, that she put it in her car and ended

34:59 up tipping it out or whatever. But yeah, whatever.

35:01 Yeah, regardless, she's had a fair few.

35:03 Who bought alcohol limits tend to, you know, support the fact

35:07 that she had had a number of drinks.

35:08 Absolutely. We'll get to that because I've

35:10 got it written down exactly what it was.

35:11 But anyway, we'll get to that in a SEC.

35:13 So what they decided, I think the waterfall was closing a bit

35:16 earlier due to this Blizzard that was happening because

35:19 apparently it was it was coming in.

35:21 Yeah, yeah, you know, it was a bit earlier than it anticipated.

35:23 But the waterfall Bar and Grill, like fuck, fuck, we're off, fuck

35:27 off. We don't want to be stuck hidden

35:28 here if you're drunk for it yet. So they closed down.

35:32 And this bit I find bizarre. So they're in a group of

35:38 friends, right? And they all decide to go off to

35:42 the home of another Boston police officer by the name of

35:45 Brian Albert. Yeah.

35:46 And his wife. Brian and Cole Albert.

35:48 Yeah, so, but John isn't 100% if he and Karen are even invited.

35:54 Jen McCabe was the one who Matt and Jen McCabe who they knew the

35:57 most. Yeah, from being there, they

35:59 invited them. To, but they were in a group.

36:01 This is what? Doesn't, but, well, let's just

36:02 clear that a little bit. Jen McCabe is sisters with

36:06 Nicole Albert. Albert.

36:07 Yeah. So I mean, I would say I could

36:10 invite anyone to my siblings house.

36:11 Yeah. I don't think that's

36:13 inappropriate, you know, like kind of thing.

36:15 But yeah, they they were a little bit like, oh, we don't

36:17 know Brian Nicole that well that well.

36:20 We do on that night. Yeah.

36:22 But there's also another layer of that that I can kind of come

36:24 at, that there'd been some between with the Albert's and

36:29 with John. Yeah.

36:30 There is a little bit of conflict there.

36:32 Yeah. So maybe that was a layer of I

36:33 don't know where they're meant to be going.

36:35 Yeah. OK.

36:36 Yeah. So they weren't really sure

36:37 where they were invited, but they were kind of like, oh,

36:38 well, Jen McCabe did say we're going.

36:40 So. And obviously they've had that

36:42 many drinks. They're kind of like, yeah,

36:43 party. Yeah.

36:45 But the other element of that being a bit weird too, is that I

36:48 find it like, so the reason they're saying come back to the

36:51 Albert's place is because there's a party happening there

36:53 already, but it's for their, it's their son's birthday.

36:56 It's his 18th I think. Yeah, I think it was 18th.

36:58 Yeah. Yeah.

36:59 So this is Brian Junior. Yeah, another Brian.

37:02 Don't. But don't worry, there's another

37:04 Brian. Yeah, so he's having a bit of a

37:08 party at the place at their house anyway, so they're kind of

37:10 like you come back to ours, as you know, we'll kick on there

37:12 with the 18. The team who aren't even legal

37:14 to drink there. No, like they're 21.

37:16 Like they're legal. Drinking age is 21.

37:18 Yeah. So, and they're police officers,

37:21 Yeah, like, OK, anyway. Yeah, there's so much wrong

37:25 with. That so much.

37:26 Yeah, I don't know. Anyway, so, yeah, they they get

37:29 in the like this, they all get in their own cars.

37:33 And this is this is the thing that I just get.

37:34 Oh my God, they all get in cars and they all drive.

37:36 And it's apparently just a thing.

37:38 You just you drive in the back streets around Canton.

37:41 Drunk. I don't.

37:43 And these are police officers. Yeah, I know.

37:45 I just think that's so gross. Oh I really have an issue.

37:48 Me too. So Karen, and I don't know,

37:51 Karen was driving. She had driven.

37:53 Well, for whatever reason, that's what had occurred.

37:55 Yeah, and she drove. Well, I think I think what

37:57 actually happened was because she was coming from her house,

37:59 she basically just stopped, picked up John and kept going to

38:02 the first bar. I think he got there and he

38:04 because she comes in and they hug and stuff on the.

38:06 Camera that's. Right.

38:07 I think she might have met him there.

38:08 She must have, actually, that is true.

38:10 Yes. Sorry.

38:10 Some other way like that. Yeah.

38:11 Yeah. So no, yeah.

38:13 So she was driving. So yeah, she gets in her car and

38:16 John gets in with her and they drive and it's not far, I get

38:20 that, but it's. Still. 7 minute drive or

38:23 something it's. Far enough to have not driven

38:24 one off, I just. You shouldn't drive 30 seconds

38:27 if you're drunk, no. Anyway, go on.

38:29 Yeah, so they get there and everyone else had got there

38:31 before them. Like they were inside and there

38:34 weren't cars out the front, you know, or anything like that of

38:36 like this big party happening. It was a little bit, you know,

38:39 what's the deal here? What's going on?

38:41 So Karen and pulls up and then she's sort of like, oh, I just

38:45 don't know if we're meant to be here, like maybe maybe let's

38:48 just go home. And so according to her, she

38:52 John gets out of the car to go. I'll go in, check what the goal

38:55 is. I'll come back and let you know

38:57 and then we'll work out whether we're staying or not because

39:00 obviously this blizzard's rolling in too.

39:01 Where are you going to park your car on the street?

39:02 Because I don't think you're allowed to park your cars on the

39:04 street because of the plows that come through and clear the

39:07 roads. That's right.

39:08 So I guess she's probably a little bit.

39:09 That's obviously another layer of this of like, well, where do

39:11 I leave my car? And, you know, am I blocking

39:13 someone else in if I pull in their driveway?

39:16 What do we do here? How long are we going to be

39:17 like, oh, can I leave the car here?

39:19 So many things. Yep.

39:20 And she's really freaking drunk. So he gets out of the car and

39:25 apparently, according to her, goes in.

39:28 Well, she didn't see him go. In her story changed on that

39:31 multiple times, yeah. And her final, final story of it

39:35 is that she saw him go in, she says.

39:38 Her initial statement was that she saw him go to the door.

39:42 Yeah. And then she got out her phone

39:44 and was like looking at, she hadn't checked her messages or

39:46 anything or checked her phone all night.

39:48 So she was looking down, checking that.

39:50 So she didn't actually see him go in.

39:52 Yeah, which I believe more. I believe that more that that.

39:54 Makes so much sense to me. Anyone would do that like your

39:57 IE is going in. Yeah, it suits her story too

39:59 much to say she saw him going. Yeah, why change it?

40:02 Believe that. I agree with you on that.

40:04 Yeah. So according to her anyway, he's

40:07 out of the car. Yep.

40:09 She sits there for 10 minutes or so going like.

40:11 Where the hell again, even again that was like she changed her

40:14 story on how many minutes she. Sat there there are like she

40:19 they can, they've tracked the car, records of it, OK.

40:21 And so, yeah, she was parked out the front.

40:23 She did move her car at one stage, which is someone else did

40:26 pull up. Yeah.

40:27 So she moved forward. Yeah.

40:29 There is evidence of all those sorts of things.

40:30 OK. But approximately about 10

40:32 minutes or so, she's sitting there going like, how long does

40:34 it take to go in and say, you know, are we coming in or not?

40:37 So this is her story at this point, I guess, you know, how

40:39 long does it take to, you know, figure out whether or not we're

40:42 welcome to come in or not? Where are you, John?

40:44 And look, as I say, their relationship wasn't that great.

40:46 As much as it looks lovey dovey on like the cameras where

40:49 they're drinking and they're having like that fun time.

40:51 There was things that were a bit rocky about their relationship,

40:54 you know, so she was like a little and there'd been a kiss

40:58 on the cheek basically of someone prior to this that had

41:02 upset her with John. So she was like, what the Hell's

41:06 going on here? What, is there someone here that

41:07 he doesn't want now me coming in or you know, like, what's he

41:10 doing? She cracks the sheets after 10

41:12 minutes of not knowing that where he is and what he's doing

41:14 and goes fuck, fuck I'm going home.

41:16 She did try calling him. No.

41:17 Yes, Sorry. Yeah.

41:18 On the phone. So she had her mobile phone, he

41:20 had his. She tried ringing him.

41:21 He never answered his phone. She sent him a text, a couple of

41:24 text messages, I think. Where are you?

41:26 Didn't What's going on? Yeah.

41:28 So she's like fuck this shit, Yeah.

41:30 Is this the point where she did the three-point turn to get out

41:32 of the? Driveway.

41:33 Yeah, well, she wasn't in the driveway.

41:34 She was on the. Street on the streets.

41:35 But she had to do AU turn to go back the other way.

41:37 Yeah, so. She's like, she's gone down the

41:39 street, backed up the driveway and then gone back the other

41:43 way. So done a three-point turn to

41:44 kind of go back out. Yeah.

41:46 And she's then gone back to John's house because the two,

41:50 the niece and the nephew, were at home.

41:51 And while they could be left at home for a little bit, they were

41:54 young teenagers at the time. And 10 I want to say.

41:56 Yeah, they certainly couldn't be left home alone overnight.

42:00 So Karen to her, I mean, she wasn't gonna be driving home

42:03 anyway, but she's gone back to John's house and apparently the

42:08 niece and nephew had to charge their phones in John's room.

42:11 Yeah. And so when Karen got back to

42:14 the house that she noted the kids room.

42:17 Actually, the niece wasn't in bed yet.

42:19 The nephew was in bed. God, this is like 1:00.

42:21 I know. Well, at 12:30, yeah, a bit more

42:23 accurate. And but her phone was already on

42:27 the bedside table. And she said to the niece, So

42:30 Karen said to the niece, have you heard from John?

42:33 And the niece is like, oh, let me go and check.

42:35 My phone went into John's room. There was nothing there from

42:37 him. So she basically says, well, I

42:41 can't get a hold of him. And, you know, I don't know

42:43 what's going on. And so Karen then rings John's

42:47 phone again and leaves a voicemail at about 1:00.

42:50 This is about 1:00 in the morning.

42:52 And it says you're a fucking loser.

42:55 Go fuck yourself, John. I fucking hate you.

42:58 Because she's pissed off that he's basically left the

43:00 responsibility of the kids to her.

43:02 Yeah. Ditched her, just gone inside

43:05 and like, yeah, not come out. You know, he'd said he'll come

43:08 out and get her if it's OK for her to come in.

43:10 Didn't do any of that. So she's pissed.

43:11 I get that. I'll be pissed.

43:13 Totally. She she loses some pretty oh.

43:15 My God, some of them are So what I mean I.

43:18 Say lying, the fact that like, you know, yeah, she's, she's

43:20 drunk. She's adamantly like she is

43:23 drunk too. So I mean, yeah, the messages

43:26 are pretty unhinged. Oh yeah.

43:29 And there's so many of them. So you can hear these messages

43:32 and stuff. And she does, she accuses him of

43:34 cheating on her, like, you know, all these sorts of things.

43:37 I I'm here with your, with your kids, you know, and you're,

43:40 where are you? And you're a fucking someone

43:42 else. And yeah, yeah, they're pretty

43:44 outrageous. And, and God, how many were

43:46 there? There was so many phone calls

43:47 that she made in that I believe it was like 50.

43:50 You know what? I had 50 in my mind.

43:52 Yeah, that sounds about right. Between like, you know, 1230 and

43:56 like 4:00 AM or something. Yeah, there's something like 50

43:59 odd miss phone calls to John's phone.

44:01 So pretty crazy. Like that's full on.

44:04 I shouldn't say the word crazy. I don't like using that word for

44:06 that. But yeah, that's full on.

44:08 I don't know if I would be calling that person that many

44:11 times even if I was that pissed with them.

44:14 I don't know, but that's drunk behavior I guess, isn't?

44:17 It. Yeah.

44:17 Well, that's it. There's the added sort of

44:19 element of alcohol there. Yeah.

44:22 Oh my God. Anyway, so as you said, she's

44:24 calling basically between 1:00 and 4/30, 5:00 in the morning.

44:29 She mustn't have. Slept.

44:29 No, she doesn't. She'd go to sleep.

44:31 Sleep. Sleep.

44:31 She did Sleep. How?

44:32 Did you, How did she manage to get 50 phone calls in and a nap

44:36 in that time? In four hours, basically, Yeah.

44:38 That's incredible. Yeah.

44:40 But basically. So at 423, John's niece called

44:46 Jennifer McCabe. So now remembering Jennifer

44:49 McCabe is Brian Albert, the house owner.

44:52 That's his sister-in-law. Yeah.

44:54 It's hard to keep this all, but she was a friend of John's, and

44:59 she was the mum of John's niece's best friend, basically.

45:03 Yeah. So I guess, yeah, that stands to

45:06 reason that they couldn't find John.

45:09 The niece kind of knew that they were out there.

45:11 Jen was there, and she's like, let me call her and see what she

45:14 knows. And Karen, apparently, according

45:18 to the niece's testimony anyway, at this point, was really

45:20 distraught. Really.

45:21 Like, I can't believe he hasn't come angry more than anything,

45:24 really upset with him. She's got her own trauma.

45:26 Yeah. Yeah.

45:27 On this phone call, McCabe's testimony is that she could hear

45:32 Karen in the background basically screaming.

45:35 John didn't come home. We had a fight.

45:36 What am I going to do? I need to find him.

45:37 I don't know where he is. And she was really sort of

45:41 agitated. Agitated.

45:42 And then Jennifer decides to come over to John's house, where

45:48 Karen and the niece are. They get in the car and then

45:51 this other woman, what's her name?

45:54 Kerry. Kerry.

45:56 How did she even come into the picture?

45:58 Yeah, because she wasn't there on the night.

45:59 No, she. Wasn't there on the night but

46:00 she just appears in the car when they go looking for John.

46:02 I never. Really got out of that

46:03 friendship group, but she wasn't there on the night.

46:06 Yeah. So did Jen call her to say hey,

46:08 yes, OK, I didn't. Realize that I think no,

46:11 actually, maybe Karen did. Read Did Karen might have rung

46:14 her instead of you seeing him or something.

46:15 OK, OK. Oh, that's weird.

46:18 I just didn't understand how she kind of came.

46:19 Into the. Picture Yeah.

46:20 Anyway, the four of them have gotten in the car and gone

46:23 looking for John 3 Three. Yeah, just three of them.

46:27 Oh, the niece didn't get in the car.

46:28 Oh, OK. And apparently, according to Jen

46:32 McCabe, in the car, Karen says something along the lines of

46:37 what if he's dead? What if a plow hit him?

46:39 I don't remember anything from last night.

46:41 We drank so much. I don't remember anything.

46:43 Yeah. OK.

46:45 Interesting, interesting, interesting.

46:49 Sorry. They then decide to obviously go

46:52 over to Brian Albert's house because.

46:55 Interestingly, it's weird. They, they come to his place and

46:58 then they, I think they go to Jen McKay.

47:01 They go somewhere else because basically they're like looking

47:04 for him in places where and Jen Karen keeps repeating going.

47:08 The last place I saw him was at the Albert's. 34 Fairview Dr.

47:13 Yeah, where, you know, where we were, the Albert's.

47:15 So we need to go there. And for some reason Jen McCabe

47:18 takes her elsewhere to look for him.

47:20 So she's like, no, we need to go there.

47:21 We need to go to their place at the Albert's, you know.

47:24 So eventually they do go to the Albert's.

47:26 Now they pull up at the Alberts and apparently immediately

47:30 Karen's like, Oh my God, there he is, I can see him.

47:33 There he is in the snow. Now.

47:35 Jen McCabe and Kerry both testify that they couldn't see

47:38 anything. It was a mount.

47:40 Of snow but Karen saw immediately there's John and it

47:46 wasn't until they got out of the car and things going what on

47:48 earth is she talking about? They looked and went Oh my God

47:52 as she they find him laying in the snow, like buried under a

47:57 layer of snow. And I'm not talking like a

47:58 little bit of snow. There's a lot of snow.

48:01 And it is, I mean, look, it's it's dark at this point.

48:03 It's still early, very early in the morning.

48:05 Not only that, the Blizzard is, it is active.

48:08 Yeah, like it's. Snowing, Snowing.

48:10 Hard. Yeah.

48:11 And I look at them on these, the clips, because you've got video

48:14 footage from like police Cam, body cams, but also cars.

48:18 Yeah. And the car footage, dash Cam

48:19 footage, you watch them all. They're not wearing that much.

48:23 I know. It fools me how they're all like

48:26 fairly cat like, not casual dress that's wrong, like, but

48:28 just lightly clothed in this. You can see the snow coming,

48:32 pelting down. It's must be absolutely

48:35 freezing. Yeah, Yeah.

48:37 So it's insane, but they So they get out of the car and yet she

48:40 finds him. Jen McCabe is the one who gets

48:43 onto the 911 phone call and she calls for help.

48:46 Karen goes straight to John and she, you know, clears the snow

48:50 and stuff and she's like, she tries to give him CPR.

48:53 She. Takes off her jacket and tries

48:55 to warm him up. Yeah.

48:56 With her clothing, actually. Sorry.

48:58 She takes off her jacket and his jacket and tries to get use her

49:02 body warmth to make him warm. Yeah.

49:04 Which, I mean, is kind of futile given that he's in a mound of

49:08 snow, but. You should do it.

49:10 You gotta yeah. Oh, you would do anything?

49:11 Yeah. Karen's panicking.

49:13 She's like beside herself. She's hysterical.

49:17 Multiple people call 9/1 one. Very interesting though what the

49:21 homeowners do and don't do. Yeah, see, I think people are

49:26 going to get annoyed with me. I actually can understand that

49:31 they didn't come out. When you look at that Blizzard

49:34 and the noise that that Blizzard is like there was a wind

49:37 gushing. There was like, right, they've

49:40 been drinking the night before. They're heavy sleeping.

49:45 I actually can in a world understand them not hearing what

49:48 was going on out there. When you watch the dashcam

49:50 footage, yeah, you can hear how loud that.

49:53 That is true and. I think that, you know, closed

49:56 windows, closed doors, they're, they're locked in for the, you

49:58 know what I mean? Like that.

49:59 It's not like there's a. Window open somewhere.

50:01 They kind of bunkered down a little.

50:02 I'm like, why didn't Jen go inside to her sister and be

50:05 like, Oh my God, we've just found someone potentially dead

50:08 out the front? Yeah, I, yes, I do.

50:10 I agree with that. I do agree with that, but I can

50:14 understand Brian and Nicole going we didn't hear anything

50:18 the other side of that is so. I think that's giving them a big

50:21 benefit of the doubt. But anyway.

50:22 Well, we're probably going to have issues with lots of things.

50:27 But Brian, as he said on this, he testified that when he did

50:32 realize what was stuff going on outside now, he still didn't

50:35 come out the front. Now, he says that that is

50:37 because as a police officer, he wasn't going to get himself

50:42 involved in it, as in he had no involvement in what was

50:46 happening and so therefore he didn't come out.

50:50 That's. Bullshit because he did have

50:52 involvement, it was happening at his house.

50:54 This. Is where, and I do have an issue

50:55 with that as well. And look, poor police work is a

50:59 whole lot of that completely. And so, yeah, I agree.

51:04 But According to him and his testimony, that is what

51:07 procedure would be for a police officer in a scenario like that.

51:12 Take, take it as you will. That's what he's that's what he

51:14 stands on. That's what he says.

51:17 Yeah, as a human, I couldn't. No, no, no.

51:22 And you know, I guess at some point, I don't know, your

51:28 humanity almost has to take over, especially because he

51:31 wasn't on duty. It's not like he was called to a

51:33 scene that happened to be at his house.

51:36 You know, in, in a world like this, it shouldn't be

51:39 investigated by the local police if he's, if there are police

51:42 officers involved. So I actually don't buy that.

51:45 I, I, I actually can't come at any of that.

51:49 So yeah, anyway, let's keep, let's keep moving on because

51:53 there's a lot of there's conjecture.

51:54 Too much, Yeah, Yeah. Where are we at?

51:57 So we've got so obviously the first responders arrive.

52:01 And first of all, there's actually a police officer not

52:03 too far away that actually flagged down and they so he

52:06 comes to help them now. So he ends up being someone

52:09 though, who has very strong connections to the family, to

52:11 the Albert's particularly. So he does in in the end excuse

52:16 himself from the investigation of this because he does know the

52:18 effect know the family really well.

52:20 But the problem is the Albert's have connections to fucking

52:22 everyone in the police everyone. So I I don't know what on what

52:26 level they needed to find someone who wasn't, But

52:28 unfortunately that's not what happened.

52:30 But the original police officer is a no.

52:33 Well, he tried to provide some first aid and he coordinated a

52:37 lot of the. Emergency on the immediate

52:39 ground. In the immediate, yeah, but

52:40 then, yeah, he recused himself. Which is the right?

52:42 Thing the right. Yeah, absolutely.

52:45 But yeah, so he was there and obviously then we had fire

52:47 brigade arrived, We have ambulance officers arrived.

52:50 There's a lot of people on this scene, a lot of people trudging

52:53 through that scene, you know, and rightly so.

52:55 I mean, it's somewhat sometimes incredibly hard to to preserve a

52:58 scene when you need to because Johnny's not dead.

53:03 So first priority is his life and getting him.

53:05 And at this point, who knows what has gone on here?

53:08 Yep, there's to them, You know, look, there's conjecture around

53:11 this. So according to many people on

53:14 the day, on the night morning of Karen Reed stated numerous times

53:20 I hit him, I hit him, I hit him. Or did she say did I hit him,

53:26 Did I hit him? Could I have hit him?

53:29 Literally, the prosecution says I hit him, I hit him, I hit him.

53:33 The defense says did I hit him? Did I hit him?

53:35 Could I have hit him? Now there are many people who

53:39 are on that scene who say she said I.

53:41 Hit him, I hit him, I hit him. So how many people does it take

53:47 to make a conspiracy and how many people can you get involved

53:50 in a conspiracy? Yeah, is a question.

53:52 Yeah, fair. I have for many.

53:53 Yeah, fair. And how easy is it to influence

53:57 someone if you keep saying to such a people that were there on

53:59 the night, did you hear us say I hit him, I hit him, I hit him

54:02 and then all of a sudden in your mind it changes?

54:04 Yep. What was said?

54:05 Yep. Without it actually being

54:06 involved in the conspiracy. Yep.

54:09 I can come at all of those. Me too SO.

54:12 That one, I'm a little bit same. I don't know how to take that

54:15 same. I can fully understand in in a

54:19 in a realm of worlds going like, oh, sorry, Karen, being like I

54:23 was drunk last night. I don't really remember what

54:24 happened. Oh my God, did I do this?

54:26 Did I hit him? Like what the I can understand

54:30 that being a thought process and that feels very natural for me

54:32 to have to hear her maybe say that.

54:35 However, you don't see it on camera.

54:37 There is dashboard footage of her running around like a

54:40 chicken, like a yeah, yeah, look.

54:42 And I feel like when I watch that, to be honest, she is

54:44 reacting in a way that I can understand.

54:46 Yeah, but some people say that they're like, oh, she wasn't

54:49 acting like she's. Over the top.

54:51 Or something. But I might know if my she's.

54:53 But also, if that was my partner, I think I would be

54:56 reacting in exactly the same way as I would be so like.

54:59 I don't see anything unusual. About she's so heightened.

55:02 And yes, of course you would be. You've just found your

55:05 significant other literally on death's door like.

55:08 He is. Moments away from death.

55:11 Yeah, yeah. I I don't have any issue with

55:14 how she reacted on that. Nor do I.

55:16 On that morning, I really don't I don't know a lot of people do

55:19 like that were there seem to, but I feel like that was quite

55:21 judgmental agree of someone going through yeah, you don't

55:24 know what you mean. I would be like however you

55:27 react in that moment seems reasonable.

55:29 The only thing I wouldn't handle is if you go, oh, he might be

55:31 dead. That's about the most.

55:33 Yeah, that's about where I'd go. Oh, wow.

55:35 I draw the line at that. And it was quite the opposite to

55:38 that reaction. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

55:40 Yeah, so they obviously they very fairly quickly, because

55:44 they see how how much he's deteriorating very quickly, get

55:48 him on a stretcher, they get him to an ambulance and they take

55:50 John to hospital and unfortunately he does pass away.

55:54 Now, the police officers on the scene do do their best to

55:58 collect some sort of scene. Now, lots of issues with this.

56:04 Oh, massive at the scene. Obviously, we've got snow still

56:08 falling, let alone what has actually fallen.

56:10 So it's very difficult. It's dark still, however.

56:12 So they start collecting evidence from the scene because

56:16 they don't even know if this is this is a scene, but you know.

56:19 They should know that they need to treat it that way until they

56:23 know differently. Absolutely, they do.

56:24 And they do. They do.

56:25 Well, they don't. They do they.

56:26 Don't as in like it's poor policing but they know they've

56:29 got to collect fucking. Poor and what do they do?

56:31 They collected into red solo cups.

56:33 Like the red plastic cups. The police station is literally

56:37 5 minutes down the road where they could go and get proper

56:39 evidence bags. Send the bloody lackey off.

56:42 Send the recruit off to go and do that.

56:44 Or you preserve that That what potential crime scene?

56:47 Instead, they went to a neighbour's house.

56:48 Yeah, and got solo which? Is another police officer, by

56:51 the way? Yeah, of course.

56:51 So they seem to be everywhere. How many police officers do you

56:53 need? One St. they grab, you know,

56:59 clean new, still sealed in their packet, whatever solo Reds,

57:03 these red solo cups that everyone knows from parties in

57:05 America. That's just like what you do.

57:08 They collect snow like with blood, the blood in the in the

57:10 in the snow in these cups and then put that in a brown paper

57:14 bag sitting in these this brown paper bag like.

57:17 It's so fucking bizarre. Really really odd.

57:21 Like they don't find a lot at the scene at that point in time.

57:24 No, because a lot of them are potentially buried in the snow.

57:27 Like they don't know what's hidden under there.

57:29 It'd be finding a needle in a haystack.

57:31 Yeah. And what, So what they do do

57:32 though at that point is they get out a leaf blower and to sort of

57:35 like, you know, which I don't think is too bad of an idea to

57:38 be honest. I know the defence had a real

57:40 issue with that. Yeah, brought that up.

57:41 But I don't think a leaf blower is too much.

57:43 Out I feel like the defence are like, oh, we can use this to our

57:46 advantage look like. There's much of that, Yeah, much

57:49 of that. So the leaf blower comes out and

57:52 they sort of blow away a bit of the scene of like, you know,

57:54 using that to try and find what other evidence might be there.

57:56 The other thing I will say they found on the night, obviously it

57:59 was under John's body was his mobile phone.

58:02 So yeah, he was lying on top of it.

58:04 With the 50 odd missed calls and several text messages.

58:09 Yeah, many multiples of text. Messages.

58:11 Many, many yeah. Oh gosh.

58:13 And then the bot dials. Yeah.

58:17 So that's all they find at that point in time.

58:20 But they do continue searching throughout that day.

58:26 This is where it all gets very complicated.

58:27 It does so quite early on. They did.

58:31 The police officers who were on the scene decide that this looks

58:35 like he's been hit by a car. There's a couple of reasons they

58:38 decide that. The main reason being he was

58:42 found with only one shoe. The other shoe they could even

58:46 find at this point in time, which is very much what happens.

58:51 And this is absolutely research back.

58:54 Proven. Proven thing when you get hit by

58:57 a car, you come out of your shoes.

59:00 So that is a very good, good indicator that there's been a

59:03 hit here from the car, so. Some significant impact of some

59:08 kind. Yes, not because it could be an

59:09 explosion, you know, Yeah, yeah. But thinking in this in this

59:12 scenario that being most likely to be a car looks like this

59:15 could be what it and and his injuries of like his impact at

59:19 the time they believed to be car injury of like being hit.

59:24 So they do actually on, at approximately 4:00 PM in the in

59:28 the afternoon, they go and they seize Karen's car when the

59:34 police officers arrived to do that.

59:35 Now let's say who's on scene at this point is a man by the name

59:39 of Proctor. He becomes, he is the lead on

59:43 this, the lead investigator on this.

59:46 So Proctor is a very significant character.

59:48 Oh yeah, yeah. And an interesting one too.

59:51 Oh. Yeah.

59:53 So he goes to Karen Reed's house to seize this vehicle, and when

59:58 he does, he does note that there is a cracked tail light.

1:00:02 That's the only words that he used.

1:00:03 Yes, he he didn't say broken. No, he said cracked tail light.

1:00:07 It's very important. Yep, so goes to her and he, they

1:00:12 seize the car and they do arrest and charge her with at that

1:00:17 point manslaughter with a vehicle and leaving the scene.

1:00:25 So this is very quickly after all of this that that occurs so

1:00:30 that from that point the car is seized and it's taken to what

1:00:33 they call the Sally port, which is like an evidence sort of

1:00:38 garage where they put the car and they can then have their

1:00:42 experts and for those that can't see me, I put that in inverted.

1:00:46 They're experts to look over this vehicle and see what

1:00:50 evidence they can find from this car as to whether or not this

1:00:52 was potentially involved in this incident.

1:00:54 Yeah. Can I just interject here, It's

1:00:56 it's another thing that I think worth noting at this point to

1:00:58 you is that there aren't many homicides or murders in Canton.

1:01:04 Yes, it's not, it's not really the norm there.

1:01:07 So in terms of experience of the this police force in dealing

1:01:11 with things like that, it's not really their bread and butter.

1:01:15 I don't know that they'd call them experienced almost.

1:01:17 Well, no, that's that's that is actually a really fake.

1:01:22 Oh man, there's a lot of stuff in this that with the police.

1:01:25 Oh, so many things. And you're just like, oh, I'm

1:01:27 not even a police officer and I know you not to do that, you

1:01:30 know, just some common sense shit.

1:01:33 Holy. Fucking hell, there's a lot

1:01:35 wrong with this. A lot wrong with this.

1:01:36 And I mean, I don't know if I should be really honest at this

1:01:38 point in time. Fuck it.

1:01:41 Let's do it. Do it.

1:01:42 I believe she did it. OK.

1:01:44 What are your thoughts? Do you?

1:01:52 I'm so undecided. Yep.

1:01:54 So I can absolutely see why you say that.

1:01:57 Yeah. And at various times in

1:01:59 researching this. So before I was researching

1:02:02 this, you know, in what I thought I knew, Yep, I thought

1:02:05 she was guilty. I was very much in the camp of,

1:02:08 Oh my God, this is a conspiracy and you've been framed and.

1:02:11 Like oh, OK. Yeah, yeah, very much so.

1:02:13 OK. But see in research.

1:02:15 Completely flipped. Yeah, okay, so in researching it

1:02:18 though, I can also see things now from the other side.

1:02:21 Yeah. And I'm like, I'm actually so

1:02:24 undecided and I don't even know how the.

1:02:27 Well, I can understand why the first jury ended up where they

1:02:30 ended up, but I just. But I don't see how I'm getting

1:02:34 really far ahead. I'll do.

1:02:36 I'll talk about it at. The end, yeah, we can come back

1:02:37 to all of the, I guess the outcome of it like, but I think

1:02:40 just an ease of talking this next bit.

1:02:42 Yeah, because once we start getting into the evidence that's

1:02:46 there and what the prosecution and defence put forward on their

1:02:49 cases. To me, that evidence is

1:02:51 overwhelming in one. Direction and I think that's

1:02:54 that was definitely a defence tactic.

1:02:56 Yes. Bamboozle them absolutely so

1:03:00 much shit. Absolutely.

1:03:02 And God, there's a so much with this, yeah, so much that comes

1:03:05 in with this. And I mean, yeah.

1:03:10 All right, let's let's. My mind boggles.

1:03:11 Oh, I know, right? Anyway, keep going with what you

1:03:13 were on about. OK, where are we up to?

1:03:16 So, all right, so I've got the car.

1:03:17 Yeah, in the Sally port. Yeah, this Proctor is on the

1:03:20 case now. Again, he is problematic to in

1:03:26 the least say it, to say the least.

1:03:28 Would you go as far as to say he's a piece of shit?

1:03:31 I would 100% say he's a piece of shit, very much so.

1:03:35 Yeah, agreed. Oh.

1:03:37 God, yeah. So there's again this night we

1:03:42 have. All the witnesses to this are

1:03:47 drunk people. Yep.

1:03:49 And I'm talking all the way down to the youngest of people that

1:03:52 were involved in this. Yeah, there's no one that wasn't

1:03:55 drinking in this, you know, there's no sober person with.

1:03:59 A clear vision of what had happened that night.

1:04:02 Yeah. So let's really start that with

1:04:04 that, I guess that we're never going to get full accurate

1:04:07 stories with it. Yeah.

1:04:09 And I also want to say I feel like sometimes we know too much

1:04:13 as in these this day and age, we always talk about, you know, you

1:04:15 never get away with a with a murder or anything these days

1:04:17 because we have so many things as we have video footage of

1:04:21 things we have. CCTV everywhere we've.

1:04:23 Got dash cams, DNA evidence and scientific, you know, ways of

1:04:26 working things out. We have Apple phones and things

1:04:28 like that with all their devices and what they can produce.

1:04:31 And that's exactly what this case brings, brings an element

1:04:34 of all of those things to it. And in the end we have

1:04:39 confusion. Yeah, because there is.

1:04:41 But I think I also think so much, and this was a defence

1:04:44 tactic, as you were saying, the defence entered a lot of stuff

1:04:48 into evidence which the judge allowed, which I found really

1:04:51 interesting that I don't think are even relevant to this case.

1:04:54 Yeah. And so I think it did muddy the

1:04:57 waters a lot. And, I mean, it did what they

1:04:59 wanted it to do. Yeah, to be honest.

1:05:01 Well. On the topic of the judge,

1:05:03 again, she shouldn't have been on the no, no, So she had a

1:05:06 conflict of interest in this case.

1:05:08 We didn't declare. It no and didn't declare that.

1:05:10 So she actually had dealings with the Albert's in another

1:05:13 case. So she should not have been the

1:05:17 judge. And look, many people don't like

1:05:19 her and think that she was very much for the prosecution and

1:05:21 that she has a lot of lot of stuff out there about that.

1:05:24 And I do agree that there was a lot of things that she didn't

1:05:28 allow the defence to do on say, but there's also a lot of things

1:05:32 that she did and I. And the things that she did

1:05:34 allow blew my mind. And the things she didn't allow

1:05:36 was like, why I like the end there didn't seem to be good.

1:05:39 Reason for my end decision with her, which is like you just shit

1:05:41 at your job. Yeah, I don't like well, easily

1:05:44 influenced. Maybe, I don't know.

1:05:45 Yep. Yeah, yeah.

1:05:47 Sorry, which is sorry not what you want to.

1:05:49 Judge. Oh God, that's not a judge.

1:05:52 Yeah. So let's, I don't know we're

1:05:53 even start with this from now on.

1:05:55 So obviously, I guess we get to a point where so Karen has been

1:06:01 charged with manslaughter at this point.

1:06:04 So in saying that, manslaughter meaning that she has

1:06:08 unintentionally hit him, which has caused his death, and then

1:06:11 she's left the scene. Yeah.

1:06:12 So basically at first the idea is that she is potentially so

1:06:15 drunk she's reversed her car into him, not even knowing she's

1:06:18 done it and driven off. Yeah.

1:06:20 OK. That I actually can come out.

1:06:23 Yep, same. But this gets taken to a grand

1:06:28 jury and looked at, and from that grand jury they make the

1:06:32 decision to indict her for second degree murder.

1:06:36 Which I think basically like manslaughter in Australia.

1:06:39 Yeah, but it comes with a much higher risk of penalty in terms

1:06:44 of jail time, all those sorts of things.

1:06:47 It does have another layer. So as much as it's, I think this

1:06:52 is where the tipping point is of where then this gets crazy

1:06:56 because what the defense then are really saying is potentially

1:06:59 she intentionally knocked him with the car and drove off.

1:07:04 There's that lift from having no idea you did it to intentionally

1:07:09 driving off. That's right.

1:07:10 Because she's so that what did the prosecution basically are

1:07:13 claiming in the end is that maybe unintentionally she hit

1:07:17 him with the car, but she was like, no, fuck him.

1:07:19 I'm so angry with him. I'm going to drive off and leave

1:07:22 him, right. So yes, not realizing that she's

1:07:26 potentially killed him, but having an understanding that

1:07:30 she's hitting with the car. Now, do you think that if they'd

1:07:32 left it at that, this would have made a very this would have been

1:07:35 a very different thing, and we probably wouldn't actually even

1:07:38 be talking about it now. Really.

1:07:39 Really, Really. Same.

1:07:40 I literally think that if it was that she was being charged with

1:07:44 an unintentional drunk situation.

1:07:46 Yep. You've hit someone.

1:07:47 You didn't even know You hit them.

1:07:48 He died. Manslaughter is what you get.

1:07:51 Yeah, like, kind of thing. I don't think we'd hear about

1:07:53 this. I really think that that was the

1:07:54 tipping point. Same.

1:07:56 Because yes, that that scare for her has meant that she has

1:08:00 involved other lawyers. Yes, and that's where this has

1:08:03 gone. It's gone to.

1:08:04 A circus. It's gone to a circus.

1:08:06 It's turned this into a circus. Yeah.

1:08:09 Now the other thing I guess that she probably had in her mind,

1:08:13 and this would have. I think if I were her, I would

1:08:15 have thought exactly the same way.

1:08:16 She was drunk. Yes.

1:08:18 So that makes her culpable. Yeah.

1:08:21 You know, So that adds another layer to it as well.

1:08:24 So I can kind of understand where she was coming from in

1:08:27 trying to get the best of the best or what she thought was the

1:08:29 best of the best to represent her.

1:08:31 And really? And everyone should, if you

1:08:33 could have, you know, you should get the best lawyer that you can

1:08:36 get if you're in the situation like this.

1:08:37 Yeah. And look, if I was in the

1:08:40 situation she was in or in any other, Alan Jackson is who I'd

1:08:44 want to be my lawyer. Oh, God, yeah.

1:08:45 Because I think he could get anyone out of anything.

1:08:47 I know, right? That man can spin, and he can.

1:08:51 He's so dramatic in the courtroom.

1:08:53 He's very convincing. Yeah.

1:08:55 And freaking all over everything like a rash.

1:08:58 Absolutely. And he's so he's meticulous.

1:09:01 Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

1:09:02 So you have you watched the documentary with Karen Reed?

1:09:05 So you know that bit where they get to the the room that they're

1:09:10 gonna set up in? The war room.

1:09:12 The war room? Yep.

1:09:13 And he's like, Yep, this will be perfect.

1:09:15 Yep, this is exactly what we need.

1:09:16 I need this set up here. I need this unpacked here.

1:09:17 I need this done here. Like you can just see his method

1:09:20 and the way he does things. He's so pedantic, like 100%.

1:09:25 Of course you'd want that in your defence attorney.

1:09:27 I love where at one point, like where they're coming towards the

1:09:29 end of the first trial and they go, oh, we ended up moving down

1:09:31 to the the coffee shop because the war room got too crazy it.

1:09:34 Was too much too. Busy it was too.

1:09:36 It was so overrun with stuff. I think it would be overwhelmed

1:09:39 walking in there because he would have had Everything

1:09:42 Everywhere and like mapped out of what he was doing.

1:09:44 I mean, even the way he mapped out his closing argument, I.

1:09:48 Know that is so impressive. So impressive.

1:09:51 Go and watch the documentary people if you want to see it,

1:09:53 it's very interesting. And it does give two

1:09:55 perspectives. I have to.

1:09:56 I mean, it's it's very lean. It's very lean.

1:09:58 It leans one's way totally. But they do give you another

1:10:01 side of it. That's true.

1:10:02 So I did. I'd appreciate that.

1:10:03 That's true because even watching it, I at the time was

1:10:06 still, yeah, I'm down for this conspiracy.

1:10:09 I've come to this other conclusion further and as I have

1:10:12 further deep dive the actual evidence not being influenced by

1:10:16 Alan Jackson. Yeah, that's where I'm like,

1:10:19 it's his influence that can get you into this conspiracy.

1:10:22 And a lot of what you read is based on his, well, what he

1:10:26 presented in court. So yes, a lot of the things you

1:10:28 read are skewed one way. That is actually very true.

1:10:30 Yeah, Yeah. Because particularly from that

1:10:32 first trial, yeah, I mean, I'll have to say the defence counsel

1:10:36 was not good. Yeah, they're pretty shit.

1:10:39 And I think again as we go back to like an OJ Simpson style

1:10:42 thing they thought they had in the bag and they did not.

1:10:44 And they didn't try like it felt.

1:10:46 That's what it felt like. It felt like they didn't really

1:10:48 think they had to try too hard. They didn't.

1:10:49 Realize what they're up against. Yeah, I think so.

1:10:51 Yeah. Which, yeah.

1:10:52 Mistrial was how it should have gone anyway.

1:10:56 Oh, my God. Sorry.

1:10:57 Where do we want to start with all this bloody evidence?

1:10:59 He starts pulling apart. I think we should start,

1:11:01 actually, very early on. OK, let's go with that.

1:11:03 All right, so as the he, she, she then gets her lawyers

1:11:08 involved, they start getting the evidence that the defense the

1:11:14 prosecution sorry are going to present starts obviously they

1:11:16 have to share that evidence with.

1:11:18 With, yeah, in the discovery, yeah, yeah.

1:11:21 In that obviously the, the defense also then go into that

1:11:25 and find what they look at and what they're finding.

1:11:28 And when they look at what was given to them by the by the

1:11:30 prosecution, they find something that wasn't given to them.

1:11:33 Yeah. And this is really the start of

1:11:35 it because I think this is where, I mean, well, in the

1:11:37 documentary, Alan Jackson says this is where I was like, right,

1:11:40 we've got them, that kind of thing.

1:11:41 Yeah. There is a Google search that is

1:11:44 found that came from Jen McCabe's phone now.

1:11:48 There's conjecture. There's conjecture on time.

1:11:50 But we'll go with the original timestamp of 2:34 AM.

1:11:55 On the morning of the 29th of January 2020.

1:11:58 So prior to John being found, but after Karen Reed has left

1:12:02 him at the Albert's correct, there is a Google search.

1:12:06 And this is famous for everyone. Yeah, I know.

1:12:08 It House. Long to die in cold.

1:12:12 Yeah, so she's obviously mistyped.

1:12:14 How? And it's so it's House Long to

1:12:16 die, to die in cold. Now, this bit of evidence,

1:12:21 weirdly enough, it's leaked somewhere.

1:12:25 Where does it get leaked to a particular?

1:12:29 Again, inverted comments coming out.

1:12:31 Expert journalist his name is. Turtle boy, Turtle boy.

1:12:37 Oh my God. OK, you think of the word turtle

1:12:41 boy, What image comes into your head like a teenager?

1:12:43 No, like a teenager who's like sitting in their little dark

1:12:46 layer and with like, I don't know, neon lights all around

1:12:49 them, but in a dark room and gaming, gaming computer with

1:12:52 like, you know, the perspex on the side of the console or

1:12:55 whatever. No, no, no, this bloke is a

1:12:58 middle-aged white man. Quite nice looking, quite put

1:13:04 together. He's a piece of shit.

1:13:07 He's a total fucking piece of shit.

1:13:10 Oh my God, what a problematic dude.

1:13:13 He's so problematic. Sorry, going through this

1:13:16 average like when this like because I was I was in this real

1:13:19 time when this is all going out and I'm like turtle boy, he's

1:13:22 onto it and I loved it. Now I know who he is.

1:13:25 I'm like oh fuck me. And I'm sorry, but I think Karen

1:13:28 Reed and Turtle Boy are having it off EW, he's in love with.

1:13:33 Her, He's definitely obsessed in love with her.

1:13:34 He's definitely obsessed with her.

1:13:36 Yeah. The other thing that I think is

1:13:37 really worth noting about why we're even talking about this as

1:13:40 well is because Karen is an attractive white middle-aged

1:13:44 woman. Yeah.

1:13:45 You know, I think if this had happened in a black family or,

1:13:49 you know, a different socio economic demographic, I don't

1:13:53 think we'd even be talking about this.

1:13:54 So I think that just needs to be said.

1:13:56 Yeah. I completely agree.

1:13:57 Because she is. She's pretty.

1:13:59 Yeah. And people find her really

1:14:01 attractive. Turtle Boy definitely finds her

1:14:03 very attractive. Definitely.

1:14:05 He, he would kiss the ground. She walked.

1:14:07 On yeah, and and a lot of it is because I mean, look, and I

1:14:10 guess we're part of this now as podcasters, that podcasting has

1:14:15 become an an Ave. for people to look at cases that you know and

1:14:18 get deep dive into these things and you know, as the public, you

1:14:21 know, rather than yeah, investigators and things like

1:14:23 that now and turtle boy literally sits in that that

1:14:25 realm. And I think what has happened

1:14:28 here is that this is a case that has blown him up.

1:14:32 He's become world renowned because of this.

1:14:35 Absolutely nobody knew who Turtle Boy was before this and.

1:14:38 We've talked about this in terms of some cases where, you know,

1:14:41 you find that there is a someone who has been convicted wrongly.

1:14:44 Mm hmm. That's a huge thing.

1:14:46 That's huge, someone being wrongfully convicted.

1:14:49 Absolutely. So you can as a journalist, if

1:14:52 you want to call him that, you know, finds that story where you

1:14:56 can defend someone who and, you know, and get them out basically

1:14:59 from that, you know, that's huge.

1:15:01 That's a big story for for someone to break and to do that.

1:15:04 Yeah. So this has been his big break.

1:15:07 Some cases shouldn't have that kind of attention, as we've

1:15:10 talked about with the Farquharson case, for example.

1:15:13 Leave it alone. That's how it should be.

1:15:15 He should be convicted. Maybe this was one where he

1:15:19 probably shouldn't have got involved because what would it

1:15:22 would have been? It would have been far different

1:15:25 in terms of the knowledge of this case.

1:15:29 Locally to Canton, probably not, but far widest reaching,

1:15:34 definitely. I think you're right, but and I

1:15:36 think the fact that this came undone for him a bit and the

1:15:40 fact that he was then, you know, he was taken to a point of this

1:15:44 as well. He did some fucking awful.

1:15:45 It was still doing awful. Things he's a he's he is a total

1:15:49 piece of shit yeah so yeah, I don't actually really want to

1:15:53 talk about him that much more because I don't think he needs

1:15:55 to have any credit necessarily in this.

1:15:57 But I think you're right in saying his involvement in this

1:16:02 has also then added another element of spotlight on the case

1:16:06 that again might not have. That it's amplified Alan

1:16:09 Jackson's, you know. Narrative, absolutely.

1:16:12 It really played into that. But it's also then like meant

1:16:15 that a fair trial can't occur. No, really.

1:16:19 I mean, he was intimidating witnesses because it's been I'm

1:16:21 not not speaking out of turn. He's been, like, proven.

1:16:24 He's been convicted of. Convicted of it like it's yeah,

1:16:26 he's intimidated. Witnesses He's he really, really

1:16:28 wanted people not getting on that stand.

1:16:29 Mm hmm. And that is not.

1:16:31 OK, no, the the but, but that's The thing is that's exactly

1:16:36 right. But so.

1:16:36 OK, Yes, he's been prosecuted and found guilty of doing that

1:16:39 of, Yeah, of witness intimidation and obstructing the

1:16:43 course of justice. Did he ended up getting

1:16:44 convicted of that as well anyway, That was obstruction of

1:16:46 justice, I think was one of the charges he had anyway.

1:16:48 Whether he was convicted or not, I can't remember.

1:16:50 Yeah. But there's, he's docked people,

1:16:52 yeah, sent people around. I mean, like, 'cause it's he's

1:16:55 so far reaching that he's got, he's got minions to do his work

1:16:58 for him, like basically and go and graze people's houses, go to

1:17:00 their sporting events and absolutely harass people.

1:17:03 Disgusting. Horrible.

1:17:05 Whether they are guilty or not, you don't do that never.

1:17:08 That's and then and but children too.

1:17:10 I mean, we, yeah, we're talking doing this to Jen McCabe's

1:17:13 children as well and stuff, which is.

1:17:15 Just he's a that's all, piece of shit.

1:17:17 Yeah, he deserves whatever he gets.

1:17:18 But yeah, I can't remember what my point was.

1:17:21 Then it doesn't matter. Yeah, as I said, don't want to

1:17:24 talk about him much. No.

1:17:25 We won't mention it, but how long to die in cold?

1:17:28 Yeah, we can talk about. How long, How long, How long?

1:17:31 Love it, but anyway. So, yeah, so Jen says so the

1:17:36 defense say that that message was actually sent at 5:26, which

1:17:40 was after the execution, sorry, the prosecution, which was after

1:17:44 they'd found. Yeah, Jen McCabe claims that

1:17:47 whilst currently is running around like a chicken with his

1:17:50 head cut off going Oh my God, he's you.

1:17:51 Need to tell me. Tell me, how long does it take

1:17:53 to call? Yeah, like, you know, like, so

1:17:55 she Google searched it whilst there.

1:17:57 And in doing that, what she's opened up an old tab which she

1:18:03 Googled something back at 2:34 AM for her daughter.

1:18:07 Yeah. What was she doing up?

1:18:10 Like, this is where I'm gonna go.

1:18:11 Oh, there's elements of this that I go what?

1:18:14 She's Googling something else at 2:34, not this question.

1:18:17 And then it opened that same tab to Google search this at 5

1:18:20 something, whatever in the morning when Karen Reed asked

1:18:24 her to. Yeah, that is Jen McCabe's

1:18:26 testimony. There are experts from both

1:18:29 sides who have said both could be true.

1:18:31 Either be true. Yeah.

1:18:32 So we don't they just cancel each other out.

1:18:34 And it's like, I tend to believe actually that what Jen McCabe

1:18:39 said is true. OK.

1:18:41 I do in in really getting down on this.

1:18:44 Look, I if she. If they did, if they would.

1:18:46 No, if they put a body out in the snow.

1:18:48 Why would she? No.

1:18:50 Oh, Google search how long it'll take him to die.

1:18:52 Yeah, no. No, no one's doing that.

1:18:54 Yeah, and I don't think Jen McCabe's an idiot.

1:18:56 No, you know, she's. Well, no, no, I'm not a big

1:18:59 rapper. No, I'm not.

1:19:00 I'm not either. I'm not either.

1:19:02 And but I don't think she's dumb.

1:19:03 No. Absolutely.

1:19:04 Yeah. She's got a certain level of

1:19:06 intelligence that I think would stop her from Googling.

1:19:09 Yeah, like that's dumb. You're really poor at a

1:19:11 conspiracy theory. Yeah, conspiracy, if that's what

1:19:13 you're gonna do. So yeah, yeah, I don't buy it

1:19:16 that that happened. No, I think you're right.

1:19:19 I think it happened at 5, whatever, because and I think

1:19:23 maybe, I don't know, it's weird that Karen would even say that,

1:19:25 but then I can almost understand her saying that.

1:19:29 But then that wouldn't be my first thought would be to

1:19:31 Google. No, it'd be like get an

1:19:33 ambulance here right now. Yes, I'd be like paramedics.

1:19:35 I need help. I need warmth, get blankets from

1:19:38 inside, help me get him off the ground like I don't know that.

1:19:42 To me, I find it when I mean Jen McCabe is one that has really

1:19:45 questioned Karen's behaviour on the on that morning, whereas I

1:19:49 question that as behaviour more than what Karen Reed did.

1:19:52 Like me too. I do kind of go who stands there

1:19:54 and goes Oh yeah, sure. While they're dying over there

1:19:57 way. I'll Google search how long it

1:19:58 takes for someone to die. Yeah, no, I'm sorry.

1:20:00 I'm in there. I'm like, I'm like, how are we

1:20:02 doing CPR here? Are you doing mouth?

1:20:03 Are you doing mouth? Am I doing chest press?

1:20:05 How are we doing this? Like I'm not standing back

1:20:08 going. Do you want any Google search

1:20:09 that for you? I find that really off putting.

1:20:12 I don't know. And that's why I can almost in a

1:20:15 way also believe the 234 or whatever because I'm like, who

1:20:19 would actually literally stand there in a crisis and Google

1:20:23 something like that, to me doesn't make sense either.

1:20:25 But then the other way doesn't make sense.

1:20:27 So anyway, yeah, tell us what you believe, people.

1:20:30 I'll bring it to know. Bring it, bring it, bring it.

1:20:33 I love it. I love it.

1:20:33 Please, I'm I'm so I've been I've I've as I say, our flip

1:20:37 teams in the mid middle of this and.

1:20:40 I think anyone will flip flop. Yeah, Honestly, yeah.

1:20:43 So the next thing should we talk about is the broken tail light.

1:20:46 OK, yes, let's do that. Yes, OK.

1:20:48 So next thing is the broken tail light.

1:20:51 There's scratches on the rear bumper.

1:20:53 So Karen had this giant Lexus SUV, dark coloured SUV, right?

1:21:00 Huge car for one person. Don't.

1:21:02 Worry, you know, didn't you think of the environment?

1:21:08 The prosecution say that Reid reversed into O'Keefe, the tail

1:21:13 light broke and then that the matching debris.

1:21:17 So the matching broken tail light was then laid out once the

1:21:22 snow had been melted away, found in the driveway at the Albert's

1:21:26 house. Right, that's off to the side,

1:21:28 but. Yeah, that's what the

1:21:29 prosecution say. Yeah, the defense say that the

1:21:32 damage is inconsistent with hitting a human and that the

1:21:35 tail light was probably broken earlier.

1:21:38 And doesn't Karen say that she'd spoken to her dad about it

1:21:41 earlier to say Oh no, it wasn't there yet?

1:21:43 So basically what? So on the night, because so when

1:21:46 she was arrested originally and Proctor does point out to her

1:21:50 what happened with your tail light and she goes, I don't

1:21:52 know, but it happened last night.

1:21:55 Now you can go onto the Ring footage and you can see this.

1:21:58 Oh yeah. So on the night when she leaves

1:22:03 John's place, at one point earlier in the evening, she

1:22:07 reverses back from the garage. So John had moved his car out of

1:22:10 the garage and parked it just off to the side.

1:22:14 And so that she could park in the garage, knowing that the

1:22:16 Blizzard was coming and her car was the better car, I guess

1:22:18 whatever, they've decided to put that one in the garage.

1:22:21 So she was inside the garage. When she's gone to leave, she's

1:22:24 reversed out of that garage and again, been drinking.

1:22:28 So this is when she's on her way to meet John.

1:22:31 She reverses back and you can see on the footage where his

1:22:35 car, she reverses back and you can't get, it's not a great

1:22:38 angle, but you can see that his car does move slightly and they

1:22:42 do hone in on it in the trial and you can see that the wheel

1:22:45 moves and things that there was contact.

1:22:47 Yeah. And it is the correct tile tail

1:22:50 light for of what? It's the passenger side rear

1:22:52 tail light that that connection has been made with.

1:22:56 And then she drives off and continues on her way.

1:23:00 So a cracked tail light could have definitely occurred if that

1:23:05 was that minor tap. And I can also come at her not

1:23:09 even realizing that that damage has been has done because, you

1:23:12 know, you might kind of go, oh, did I just hit that one?

1:23:14 Yeah, OK, drive off, got there. By the time you've got to where

1:23:17 you're going kind of like with a small tap about it, whatever.

1:23:19 Yeah. And maybe it was a small crack

1:23:22 in that tail line as case reported all that.

1:23:25 Yeah. However, so the doctor does, he

1:23:31 spots this, obviously that's her explanation.

1:23:33 She goes, I don't know, but it clearly happened last night

1:23:34 because she's she realizes obviously, but at this point

1:23:37 that that wasn't there the day before.

1:23:39 She does know that that was not, you know, but yeah.

1:23:41 So there's evidence of where that potentially else could have

1:23:43 happened. The the prosecution obviously is

1:23:47 saying it happened with the connection of o'cafe.

1:23:51 Now, there's a whole lot of issues with all of this stuff.

1:23:53 That car gets taken to the sallyport and there is camera

1:23:57 footage of the car sitting in the Sally port and police

1:24:02 officers doing what they do around that car.

1:24:05 Now, as we say, Proctor is very questionable in all of this and

1:24:09 he is seen in that Sally port with that vehicle before any

1:24:15 tail light is being found at the scene, correct?

1:24:20 Now, the defense have used this really well.

1:24:24 I think that footage that you will see when you look at it and

1:24:28 you watch that footage and you think you're looking at the

1:24:31 passenger side of the vehicle, full angle of the passenger side

1:24:35 of that vehicle and the passenger rear tail light, yes.

1:24:39 And you tick over the time as that car is sitting there and

1:24:42 you never see a police officer go anywhere near that rear tail

1:24:46 light. You'll see, Cat says, you'll see

1:24:48 Proctor's head on the other side of that vehicle, but never on

1:24:52 the rear passenger side vehicle of that car.

1:24:56 But that's what you think you're looking at.

1:24:58 What the defense then do point out eventually after this being

1:25:02 presented, is that that footage is reversed.

1:25:05 It's been flipped. It's been flipped.

1:25:06 There's a car parked next to her vehicle and it's a police

1:25:10 vehicle and you can see on the back of it the words police.

1:25:13 Written backwards and that you can also see there's a #3 as

1:25:16 part of a number plate, and you can see that the three is

1:25:18 backwards. It's backwards, yeah.

1:25:20 So when you actually watch it in the correct way, you realize you

1:25:25 are actually observing the driver's side vehicle of the car

1:25:29 and that therefore Proctor is on that rear tail light that is

1:25:34 broken. Yeah.

1:25:36 And that he is for quite some time.

1:25:38 A lot of time, yeah. So this is, this is problematic

1:25:42 and I think that the the defence have definitely put something

1:25:45 forward here that proves some doubt in all of this 100%.

1:25:51 I think as well with that is So what Proctor claims is that they

1:25:58 then found those tail light shards in the driveway at the

1:26:01 Albert's house, right it. Doesn't claim it it.

1:26:04 Happened. It happened.

1:26:05 Well, no, they were found there. Yeah, yeah, yes, absolutely.

1:26:07 They would then send off, sent off for forensic testing to see

1:26:10 whether there was any DNA, blood, anything on that.

1:26:12 There's nothing. Nothing was ever found on them,

1:26:16 but they do exactly match what was take.

1:26:20 What was missing from the tail light of Gen. of Karen's car?

1:26:25 So this is another thing that is out there that a lot of people

1:26:29 believe that these tail light pieces were found three days

1:26:34 after the impact of John and the car, right?

1:26:39 That's not the truth. I don't know.

1:26:41 It is so wildly out there that this happened three days later

1:26:44 and that Proctor was the one who found the pieces.

1:26:47 That's what everyone believes. That's actually not what

1:26:49 happened. So what has happened on that

1:26:51 day? So 4:00 PM ish ish, the car was

1:26:54 picked up from Karen's, taken to the teleport.

1:26:57 Yes. And Proctor is seen in that in

1:26:59 the vicinity of that tail light. Absolutely.

1:27:02 Then at 5:00 PM at the Albert's house, the police do a shoulder

1:27:07 to shoulder search of the front lawn, which is where Don's body

1:27:10 was found. In that search they find not

1:27:14 much at all. In like the first part of doing

1:27:16 that 5:45 they find a piece of tail light.

1:27:24 From 5:45 for another 15 minutes they continue to find more tail

1:27:29 light pieces. So there is a time frame here

1:27:33 where people are saying that Proctor could have taken those

1:27:36 bits of tail light and what gone to the scene sprinkled them

1:27:40 around. But he wasn't there.

1:27:41 No, no. He wasn't.

1:27:43 No, he was there after this. Yeah, so.

1:27:46 He got there at 545 or something.

1:27:49 Something like, well, that's when they found the pieces 540.

1:27:51 50545 he got there. It was after that though.

1:27:55 It was around that time. It wasn't far off.

1:27:58 Yeah. But they did find that at least

1:27:59 the first piece was found before he got to him getting there.

1:28:02 Yep. Yep.

1:28:03 The other pieces were found then I think with him being there.

1:28:06 OK. But in the end, they found 45

1:28:09 pieces. And we're talking like when,

1:28:10 say, 45 pieces, like little tiny, tiny.

1:28:13 Some of them were bigger pieces. Yeah.

1:28:15 So there were 40-5 pieces. And now like you know, the snow

1:28:17 is it's melting away and find like they're finding things.

1:28:20 So there's I actually this is where I kind of go where I

1:28:24 change my my thought here. OK those those pieces were

1:28:28 genuinely found there by other police.

1:28:30 Yeah. I just don't know that with that

1:28:34 many people on scene of doing a shoulder to salt shoulder search

1:28:37 of that, how many police officers were involved in that,

1:28:41 that Proctor would be able to come in and what have bits of.

1:28:44 Tail light and to have so many bits and little fragments as

1:28:48 well, which were then able to all be put together.

1:28:50 Yeah, I do understand that. The other part of the tail light

1:28:54 that we should then go into, which the FBI were actually the

1:28:57 ones that found this, was that in John's clothing that he was

1:29:01 wearing were very small shards of tail light matching the tail

1:29:07 light were found in his clothing.

1:29:09 Yeah. So to me, that makes me think it

1:29:12 was his jacket open. It must have been because he was

1:29:15 wearing a jacket, yeah. He's wearing like a Yeah, it was

1:29:18 like a. An overcoat, but it must.

1:29:20 But it must have been open because they found it on his on

1:29:23 his undershirt. Possibly.

1:29:25 I know that she says what he's wearing in the waterfall.

1:29:28 Yeah, there's video footage of that.

1:29:30 Yeah, that's what he's wearing when he's in the snow.

1:29:32 It's not. Like OK.

1:29:34 It's not a lot of clothing, yeah.

1:29:35 Yeah. OK, maybe that they meant that

1:29:38 then. Yeah, the other thing that is

1:29:42 like fucked about this is that no chain of custody of those

1:29:46 tail light pieces were maintained.

1:29:48 No the. Tail.

1:29:49 So yeah, this is where the. Police, they can't actually, the

1:29:51 police works fucked. So they can't actually use this

1:29:55 really as as solid evidence because they didn't fucking bag

1:29:58 everything, you know, So what are we arguing over here?

1:30:02 Like we don't actually even it, it kind of means nothing to be

1:30:05 honest. Yes, unfortunately, Yeah, yeah,

1:30:08 yeah, I, I agree. And that's so we don't.

1:30:11 We don't know for sure what was found when and by whom, because

1:30:15 it was never bagged and and tagged and as it should have

1:30:18 maintained, yeah, the chain of custody maintained.

1:30:21 Yeah, so his clothing, obviously he was wearing them when he's

1:30:23 taken to the. Hospital.

1:30:24 Yeah. So that was fine.

1:30:25 His clothing. Was OK.

1:30:26 Basically I've said. I mean, it wasn't done as it

1:30:29 should have been at any point in this, but they're basically

1:30:32 saying that the FBI who've looked into this kind of go,

1:30:36 there's no point in time where procked out was did have access

1:30:39 to him and his clothing. No, that's exactly.

1:30:42 So therefore the clothing having tail light shards found is

1:30:47 pretty strong evidence, yeah, which I think gets really pushed

1:30:49 to the side. Which is.

1:30:51 Exactly what the defence want and I really that, that's the

1:30:54 bit that kind of is the clincher for me.

1:30:56 Yeah, that and the the tail light pieces and how they were

1:31:00 found and how many people would need to be involved in this

1:31:03 conspiracy to have not found those pieces, how they found

1:31:06 them. People believe that literally

1:31:07 Proctor was there on his own three days later and went, oh,

1:31:10 look what I just found. No, no, no.

1:31:11 And that's not no. No, no, no, no.

1:31:13 These pieces were found legitimately.

1:31:15 I think you're right in that the pieces that were found on John's

1:31:20 body, yeah, they. That can't really be argued

1:31:23 because the hospital did the right thing and they bagged all

1:31:25 of the evidence at the hospital and in the presence of a police

1:31:29 officer, it was signed chain of custody, everything like that.

1:31:31 So I agree with you. Yeah.

1:31:33 That. That's certainly pretty bloody

1:31:35 damning. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:31:37 Yeah, yeah, I think as I say, it will say a lot of times the

1:31:41 defence have done exactly what they should have done.

1:31:43 Yeah, the footage evidence in the Sally port is fucking hell.

1:31:47 That's just. But that just makes the.

1:31:49 Police look so fucking so incompetent but also so

1:31:53 deceptive. Why are you feeling?

1:31:54 Like they're doing the wrong. Thing they look like they're

1:31:56 doing the wrong thing, that's it.

1:31:57 So of course that makes you go, well, if they're doing the wrong

1:32:00 thing and trying to doctor evidence like this, what else

1:32:02 are they trying to doctor? Absolutely.

1:32:03 So it puts their whole case into disrepute because of course

1:32:08 people are gonna think that I think that.

1:32:10 Yeah, yeah, definitely. Why would you?

1:32:12 Why would you falsify shit? Yeah, there's no, there's

1:32:14 actually probably no need to. No, And this is where I think

1:32:18 they've done themselves no favors.

1:32:19 Yeah, with that sort of stuff. That was the video.

1:32:22 When I heard about the video footage thing being flipped, I

1:32:23 was like, why the fuck would you do?

1:32:25 Therefore, I'm gonna, I can go down this conspiracy route

1:32:27 because like, Oh my God. Agreed.

1:32:30 But then when I really look at the actual physical evidence of

1:32:33 this case, that's when I go. I actually, yeah.

1:32:39 What about the injuries that John sustained?

1:32:41 So he had an autopsy done. Yeah.

1:32:43 And it basically came back that he had a head trauma,

1:32:47 lacerations, arm wounds and hypothermia.

1:32:49 So he actually died of the hypothermia and head trauma.

1:32:53 Yes, the head injury and then like the hypothermia contributed

1:32:56 to the yeah, speed of all that. So the prosecution obviously say

1:33:01 that he was impacted by the SUV which caused the blunt head

1:33:06 trauma and then obviously the exposure to cold.

1:33:08 We all know he was found in this.

1:33:09 No, there's no so that about that.

1:33:11 They're saying he's hit. They're sort of saying from the

1:33:14 on the side, like because his arm had injuries and we can get

1:33:18 into. Those Oh yeah, that's like one

1:33:19 of my favorite parts. So the arm injuries that he has

1:33:23 so sort of angled to the side to hit his arm and then he was

1:33:27 thrown back and falling backwards is what's given him

1:33:30 the head injury. 'Cause he's kind of falling

1:33:32 against the house. Yeah, the so the other injury

1:33:34 that always gets talked about too is the fact he had two black

1:33:36 eyes. Now, the two black eyes, we'll

1:33:38 be really, really, really clear that medical examiners have

1:33:41 stated those black eyes are not from physical punches to the

1:33:45 face. They are from the blood, the

1:33:48 bleeding on the brain. Yeah, from the head injury that

1:33:50 have created blood. Black eyes, yeah.

1:33:53 So that's it's it's. And again, yeah, so the injuries

1:33:59 are very interesting. Yeah.

1:34:01 And again 'cause some issues. Yeah, well, the the defense say

1:34:05 that the injuries are inconsistent with a car strike.

1:34:08 So they're talking about the blood, the black eyes, and then

1:34:11 that the arm wounds resemble dog bites.

1:34:13 They had an expert come in to talk about that and that the

1:34:17 they they allege that the death occurred after there was an

1:34:20 altercation inside the Albert's house and that he was then

1:34:23 placed outside to the defence. Really went hard on that in

1:34:27 terms of and I feel like this is was probably not what they

1:34:30 needed to do even to get the the reasonable doubt in this to be

1:34:33 yeah. But yeah, they really went full

1:34:36 hog into the fact that this was actually not even just an

1:34:40 accident. This was planned prior and that

1:34:45 they wanted to murder John and they were going, they jumped,

1:34:48 they were going to jump. They jumped him inside the house

1:34:50 and beat him up and then dumped him out in the snow to die.

1:34:55 Now that's a that's a big leap to go that far.

1:34:58 I really think. But I think some of the evidence

1:35:01 can be absolutely drawn to a thought of like drunken men

1:35:04 having some sort of argument and you know, and being and they're

1:35:06 being in a fight and him being oh fuck you, Chuck him out in

1:35:09 the snow. I there is a world where I can

1:35:12 believe that that could occur. OK, yeah, I, I mean, yeah, yeah,

1:35:16 it's very not. Fully into it, but yeah, I can.

1:35:19 I can come at it. Yeah, I guess it's, it's not

1:35:22 impossible is what you're saying?

1:35:23 Yes, yes, I agree with that. But then they were having a

1:35:26 great time at the waterfall. All of the CCTV there shows that

1:35:30 they're all yeah. But the reason, so the what the

1:35:33 back story is as to why they think this had occurred was what

1:35:36 what the prosecution, sorry, the defence put forward is that

1:35:39 Colin Albert, who is the nephew of the owner of the house.

1:35:44 Yes, so Brian Albert's nephew. He was a bit of an issue.

1:35:51 Now there is evidence of this that John had actually sort of

1:35:57 spoken to some police officers around the fact that he had seen

1:36:01 Colin Albert dealing drugs. So the that's what they have put

1:36:06 forward is that there was a beef between Colin and John.

1:36:10 But John hadn't actually reported it.

1:36:11 He had. Yeah, there is evidence.

1:36:13 Of it OK, OK. Yeah.

1:36:15 So there's, Yeah, they, they basically say that, yeah, Colin

1:36:18 was like lying and waiting inside, knowing that John, you

1:36:22 know, was coming. And he beat up John.

1:36:27 Now there's lots. I have lots of issues with that,

1:36:30 I really do. But how would he have even known

1:36:33 that they were come, that he was coming?

1:36:35 Well, one was he that he was coming?

1:36:36 I don't even know that Colin knew that he had reported that

1:36:39 to police officers. Because nothing had been done

1:36:41 about. It had been done about it, which

1:36:42 because he was now. But yeah, exactly.

1:36:45 Right. He was.

1:36:46 So not only was Brian a police officer, he was a retired police

1:36:48 officer at this point, I should say, yeah, his brother was also

1:36:51 a police officer. And his other brother, I want to

1:36:53 say you're in like a butcher's or something.

1:36:54 Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

1:36:56 So there was. The three of them were very well

1:36:58 known around Canton as being a police family.

1:37:01 Yeah. And so there was other Albert's

1:37:03 that had been charged with things I think in the past and

1:37:06 had got away with them and things had been done to sweep

1:37:08 things under the rugs. So I do believe that was pretty

1:37:10 much what was going to happen to Colin and was already in the

1:37:12 process. So I don't know, Yeah.

1:37:16 But is it worth killing someone over none?

1:37:20 The marks. Let's, oh, the dog bar theory

1:37:23 get into this. It's my favorite.

1:37:25 So the Albert family owned a German Shepherd by the name of

1:37:29 Chloe. Yeah.

1:37:30 And the. So you can have a look again.

1:37:34 The photos of this are online everywhere, but you can see

1:37:37 photos of John's arm. Yeah.

1:37:40 And the prosecution says that. Sorry.

1:37:44 The defence says that the bite marks match that of a German

1:37:48 Shepherd. How the fuck you'd know that?

1:37:49 I don't know. And scratches.

1:37:51 So they're like, oh, this is consistent with scratch.

1:37:54 Interesting. This is a consistent.

1:37:56 Yeah, It doesn't look like someone's been hit by a car.

1:37:58 No, it doesn't. And to the point of like I have

1:38:00 to. This is funny because I was I

1:38:02 was actually watching that documentary right when one or

1:38:04 when sons came downstairs. Oh yeah.

1:38:06 And so I've paused the doco and it's literally on his arm on the

1:38:10 screen. Yeah, right.

1:38:11 And Mason, who is very into true crime and I have to try like not

1:38:15 get him involved in things, but he wants too badly.

1:38:18 Yeah. And he comes in and he goes, oh,

1:38:19 what's this one? You know, I go, oh, this is a

1:38:21 real juicy, weird, weird story kind of thing.

1:38:23 And I go, what do you reckon 'cause those injuries now he

1:38:25 knows no, nothing of this case. You know, I said, what do you

1:38:29 reckon would have caused injuries like that?

1:38:30 And he goes, looks like he's been more by bear interest.

1:38:34 And I thought that was a really interesting sort of like and I

1:38:36 went. Yeah, yeah.

1:38:38 I write that that's potentially what it could look like, yeah,

1:38:41 but I don't know what tail light gashes could look like either.

1:38:44 Yeah, I don't. Know, but I don't know.

1:38:47 It's weird. The arm thing's weird.

1:38:49 That throws up a bit. Of a thing.

1:38:50 For me it's it's the context of the dog that then makes it look

1:38:55 soft. I know.

1:38:56 So The thing is as well, like when they did the autopsy, they

1:39:00 have taken swabs of all of the injuries on his arm.

1:39:03 Yeah. No canine DNA was found.

1:39:06 Pig DNA was found now I can so so the defense put to the the

1:39:14 pathologist that well pig DNA as in like maybe from a dog trait

1:39:19 like a pig's ear, which. I mean fair, fair.

1:39:23 Yeah. And again, that's all I have to

1:39:25 do is plant. Reasonable doubt.

1:39:26 That's right. And the pathologist was like,

1:39:30 well, I can't exclude that. I can't.

1:39:32 I don't know. She did end up saying like,

1:39:33 well, yeah, maybe. Yeah, yeah, possible.

1:39:35 It's possible. Yeah.

1:39:38 Interesting. But the thing with the dog is

1:39:40 that where is Chloe? Where is the dog?

1:39:43 Well, this is the thing. Seven days after this happened,

1:39:46 they got rid of her. And so that's where it's also

1:39:50 it's like. Why don't they?

1:39:51 Why do that? Like it?

1:39:52 Makes you feel guilty. They, I know, but they, they

1:39:55 their story, what they testify to, which is again, again, Oh my

1:39:59 God. So prior to this occurring,

1:40:01 Chloe had injured somebody. Yeah, right.

1:40:03 Again, a few days after this, she injured someone else.

1:40:06 She was in another fight with another dog and something or

1:40:08 something. So they rehomed, well, rehomed

1:40:11 her. I say that because she, they,

1:40:13 well, I feel like maybe they put it down.

1:40:15 I think they did, but. They're not saying that, which I

1:40:18 because they're saying that they've rehomed her to a farm,

1:40:19 which sounds so much like, you know, Yeah.

1:40:21 The farm in the sky. The big farm in the sky.

1:40:24 To a farm where they can run free, yeah.

1:40:27 I mean, look, if your dogs attacked some twice, like they

1:40:30 should be put down. I mean, I think that's.

1:40:32 That's what they're claiming has occurred, yeah.

1:40:35 And to be honest, I think that that's probably what happened.

1:40:41 But like, do you think what happened was like John was

1:40:44 outside already and maybe Chloe's come outside and seen

1:40:50 his arm and had a go at it? Like I just it's possible.

1:40:54 It's possible. I had.

1:40:55 I have thought that, yeah. But to be honest, I think you'd

1:40:58 then see more down, bite down and more clear.

1:41:02 Yeah. Because this is more like this.

1:41:03 Is grapes it's. That's true.

1:41:05 So what else would've caused it? I just don't think it's.

1:41:08 The tail light, the more I've looked at it and the more I

1:41:10 have, I've like really gone way down, OK, the more I look at it,

1:41:15 I I can buy that it's tail light and it's but how?

1:41:20 I just don't understand, like has he fallen across the tail

1:41:23 light and scratch? I think he's as as it's.

1:41:26 As he's fallen over. And it's.

1:41:28 Yeah. And it's it's.

1:41:30 Significant scratches. Though I think so, I think.

1:41:34 So let let us know what you think people.

1:41:36 I'm so curious. That this is the bit that.

1:41:38 For me does I can't. I know I was fully into the

1:41:40 Bowie story and I just now I'm now I'm like, yeah, it doesn't

1:41:44 all add up. My, my thought was that Chloe

1:41:47 might have come out and Wally was like unconscious, had a bit

1:41:50 of a go. But then I see what you mean

1:41:52 about that. The marks would have been

1:41:53 different, as if she was coming down on on it.

1:41:56 Yeah, but maybe she was like digging in the snow or something

1:41:59 because he was buried. I don't know.

1:42:02 But then wouldn't there be dog hair somewhere or dog DNA

1:42:05 somewhere? And it's not.

1:42:07 And my thing with the other thing with like getting rid of

1:42:09 Chloe the way they did, right? Like, why?

1:42:14 OK, even if she did do what what we're saying, we're suggesting

1:42:17 that she did, right? Dogs are going to talk.

1:42:21 No, dogs are going to sit there and go, oh, yeah, I'm old.

1:42:25 I'm old. Yeah.

1:42:28 Yeah, not gonna happen. Yeah.

1:42:29 So why do you need to get rid of the dog?

1:42:31 Like, I genuinely think there's evidence that this dog, these

1:42:35 events that happened with this dog, there is absolutely

1:42:37 evidence of that. So you think the fact that they

1:42:39 got rid of the dog has nothing? To do, I think it's just purely

1:42:42 coincidental that's what's occurred and they've they've got

1:42:44 rid of the dog. All right, next bit of evidence.

1:42:47 Well, reads blood alcohol content.

1:42:50 Oh, yeah, let's go there. Yeah, let's go there.

1:42:52 Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so we talked about this at

1:42:54 the start of the episode, that her blood alcohol content was

1:42:59 problematic. Yeah, she'd had, we know, at

1:43:03 least 8 drinks. She'd purchased 9.

1:43:05 We don't know the strength of those drinks or what was

1:43:07 necessarily in them. We know they were all spirit

1:43:11 based though. Yeah.

1:43:13 So basically when she got when she was arrested, they did a

1:43:18 blood blood alcohol on it. Now this is so she finished

1:43:22 drinking somewhere around 12:30 in the morning.

1:43:25 Well, and that's the other thing that that's what we know of from

1:43:28 video footage, Yeah. We don't know if she left John

1:43:30 pissed as she was at him. Did she go home and have another

1:43:33 drink? We don't know.

1:43:34 We don't know. We don't know.

1:43:36 But look, let's say she didn't, OK?

1:43:39 Because if she didn't, because even if she didn't, it's bad.

1:43:43 Especially if she didn't actually, to be honest,

1:43:45 especially if she didn't, it's bad.

1:43:47 Yeah. She's then been arrested.

1:43:49 At what time was that like? For Oh no in the morning.

1:43:53 In the morning she they did a B A/C.

1:43:56 I yeah, they do. You want to because I'm at the

1:43:57 scene. They were like we need to get,

1:43:58 we need to get here. So that was it like, but I think

1:44:01 it was like 8 something AM, 850 something AM.

1:44:04 Yeah. They've done a blood alcohol on

1:44:05 her, yes. And it came back as .13, yes.

1:44:10 OK. What that means is so in in

1:44:16 Massachusetts, you're the legal drinking limit is .08.

1:44:20 Yes, in Australia for us it's point O 5.

1:44:23 And so at .13, however many hours later, what's that 7-8

1:44:29 hours later? That's significant.

1:44:31 It really is. What they what the medical

1:44:34 examiner estimates is that at the time that she allegedly hit

1:44:40 John, Yeah, her blood alcohol concentration would have been

1:44:43 .29. Now that's based on her weight,

1:44:46 the number of hours she was drinking, how quickly she was

1:44:49 drinking, blah, blah, blah blah. Blah.

1:44:50 Lots of factors. Lots of factors were.

1:44:52 Putting and it's very, you know, estimate.

1:44:54 It's not. And they say that it's not

1:44:55 definitive. It is their best guess.

1:44:57 Yeah, .29 Fucking fucking hell she would.

1:45:01 Not have. Been she should not have been

1:45:03 driving. Even at .13 she shouldn't have

1:45:06 been driving. God, no, no.

1:45:09 Yeah, Yeah. That's look and that's where

1:45:12 again that element of this. But then the defense says you

1:45:17 can be drunk, but that doesn't make you a murderer.

1:45:19 You can drive under the. Influence and it doesn't make

1:45:20 you a murderer. Absolutely.

1:45:22 Do I believe she's a murderer? No, I but I can absolutely come

1:45:28 at a story of someone being that drunk or going.

1:45:31 I'm like, I'm getting out of here and driving off.

1:45:33 Not having any idea. No idea they hit anybody driving

1:45:36 forward going. I'm fucking leaving this

1:45:38 bastard. He can go fucking himself like.

1:45:40 Yeah, well, if you listen to her messages after, that's probably

1:45:42 exactly. What she was thinking, she was.

1:45:44 Doing that, I can I that is a world where I go.

1:45:48 Yeah, yeah, yeah. That that totally happened.

1:45:50 Yeah, I agree. Yep.

1:45:53 Allegedly. Oh no.

1:45:54 Like. Whoa, no.

1:45:56 Snow. Whoa.

1:45:57 Well, she's acquitted. She's acquitted, according to

1:46:03 our theory. Yeah, well.

1:46:06 So the other, the other thing we need to say here is the poor

1:46:10 police work in general, the now poor police work or not.

1:46:14 OK, so the house, the sorry, the defense very vehemently say that

1:46:21 John did go into that house and that whatever occurred happened

1:46:26 in that house. His body was then put outside

1:46:29 the house. The house was never searched.

1:46:32 Never. Never, no one ever entered that

1:46:35 house. The police officers, the most of

1:46:37 someone entering that house was a police officer did go to the

1:46:40 door, but he actually never went in.

1:46:44 Now there's an issue here slightly.

1:46:46 To be able to enter that property and do that, you need

1:46:49 to have probable cause. Now they claim this is the claim

1:46:53 that the police have is that they had no probable cause.

1:46:56 Fuck off, a man was found dead in your front yard.

1:46:58 That's probable cause enough for me.

1:47:00 Well, according to their legal system that is not enough

1:47:06 because all of the evidence stuff was on the lawn.

1:47:08 But they didn't know that all of the evidence stuff was on the

1:47:11 lawn. They didn't know that no say

1:47:13 that I. Don't agree with this at all and

1:47:15 to be honest it did them no favors.

1:47:17 No. Because if they had searched

1:47:19 that house, they could have definitively said one way or the

1:47:23 other. Whether he was in there?

1:47:25 Because why was that police officer in that house?

1:47:27 I'd be like, please come in and see in here and make fingerprint

1:47:30 everything. No, he never came in here

1:47:32 because this is what they say, like Brian Albert, everyone else

1:47:35 was at that party vehemently. And again, this is where the

1:47:37 conspiracy comes into it. If, like, you know, they all say

1:47:40 this. He did not come.

1:47:41 In they didn't see him. No, not even that.

1:47:43 They said they didn't see him. There's a group chat where, oh,

1:47:47 I want to say it's Higgins. Yeah, says another Brian.

1:47:51 We haven't got to him yet. We got to him, Yeah.

1:47:54 So he puts in the group chat, I believe and says just tell him,

1:47:57 tell them he never came in the house.

1:48:00 And then Brian Elbert's responds exactly, which some people take

1:48:04 as them going, oh, that's the conspiracy being.

1:48:06 Started, but you could take that away.

1:48:08 Either way but what he's probably telling.

1:48:10 He never came. He never came in.

1:48:12 So, yeah. So.

1:48:14 Because they and if that's truth, if that he never came in

1:48:17 that house, I would be like. Please.

1:48:20 I want you to come in and stretch the house.

1:48:22 I want you to say that nothing was here because what it's

1:48:24 allowed for is for the defence to claim it all went on in the

1:48:28 house, it went on in the house and we don't have evidence of

1:48:31 it. Because the police never went in

1:48:32 and did their job properly, yeah.

1:48:35 Now the other thing that lies with this though is what did

1:48:38 they do after this? Like within months.

1:48:41 Oh, they sold their. Sold the house.

1:48:42 Not only sold the house, ripped up the carpet, redid the

1:48:46 basement, ripped up concrete and replaced concrete.

1:48:53 Now that information on its own makes me go what the fuck.

1:48:56 This is guilty as shit now, but if you add that the property had

1:49:00 been on the market for 12 months.

1:49:03 And they and they had also done other renovations.

1:49:06 Yeah. To the house to get it ready to

1:49:07 solve. They wanted to.

1:49:09 That's right. They it wasn't selling, so they

1:49:10 wanted to sell it. They wanted to improve the

1:49:12 things that the real estate agent had said.

1:49:14 Yeah. So again, you can view this

1:49:18 either way. Yeah.

1:49:19 So. Again, I'm like, all right, I

1:49:20 have to cross that off my list. Yeah, this is where I was.

1:49:22 What? I was a non issue I think.

1:49:24 I think we can't put. I think, unfortunately,

1:49:26 coincidence has again played a role here.

1:49:28 Yeah, but if only they had searched that house.

1:49:30 See, because 100% because I don't think John had ever been

1:49:35 to their house before. So that means if they hadn't, if

1:49:38 they found fingerprints in there, they could 100% say that

1:49:43 he was there that night. Yep.

1:49:44 Absolutely. But it was never looked at.

1:49:48 No, I don't even think that fingerprint at the front car.

1:49:50 Because there was blood stains on it.

1:49:52 They would have seen that there were blood stains on the car

1:49:53 totally, you know, like, so just if they had just fucking done

1:49:56 that. But yeah, the the at least the

1:49:59 stance on it is that they didn't have probable cause to go in

1:50:02 and. Do I call bullshit?

1:50:03 In that cart we've got. Bullshit in that you've got a

1:50:05 dead. Body on your lawn?

1:50:06 Fucking probable cause. Yeah.

1:50:10 That infuriates me. Shall we get to Brian Higgins

1:50:12 though? Yeah, yeah.

1:50:13 Let's talk about Brian Higgins. Yeah, OK, so Brian Higgins is

1:50:16 yet another police officer now. He and John knew each other

1:50:22 slightly more than some of the others I guess, but not that

1:50:24 well. They weren't friends.

1:50:26 They were acquainted. They knew each other through

1:50:27 work. And that was where it really was

1:50:29 at. Yeah.

1:50:30 But definitely had been at the same parties and evenings

1:50:33 similar to this night, you know? And so had Karen.

1:50:37 So over this period of time, Karen and Brian Higgins had

1:50:40 spent time together in in groups, you know, and it had

1:50:44 been a bit flirtatious. Which were the two of them?

1:50:46 Just a. Bit well, it gets worse.

1:50:50 Well, I guess initially, yeah, a bit of a bit of flirting going

1:50:52 on, yeah. So.

1:50:53 But so, as we said, Karen and John's relationship was a bit

1:50:55 rocky at this point. And there had been.

1:50:57 I think stuff and also John's niece in the week prior to

1:51:02 John's death had overheard John and Karen having a conversation

1:51:05 where Brian where John basically said to Karen, I really feel

1:51:09 like our our relationship's taken its course.

1:51:12 Yeah, OK. So I think they were they were

1:51:13 both. Kind of.

1:51:14 This wasn't. Maybe it's kind of done.

1:51:17 Nothing had major had actually happened, but it was kind of.

1:51:22 Cara monster. She'd A phobia though, like.

1:51:24 She had quite the temper on it. Well, there was an incident

1:51:26 where they've been to Aruba with a group of friends again and a

1:51:29 lot of drinking and all that stuff, which, whatever,

1:51:33 whatever. But clearly when she gets drunk,

1:51:34 she gets quite rowdy. That's it.

1:51:36 So obviously, again, drinking involved, she's coming to a

1:51:41 foyer of the hotel where John is talking to a friend of his that

1:51:44 he hasn't seen in a while but is within this group.

1:51:47 And they lent in for the kiss like, and it was apparently just

1:51:51 a friendly like kiss on the cheeks sort of situation.

1:51:53 Karen has walked into this. What the fuck are you doing?

1:51:57 Got off her a tree like that. John's cheating on her and all

1:52:00 this. So, yeah, but who was the guilty

1:52:03 party in that? Yeah, well, do you know what I

1:52:05 mean? Like.

1:52:06 You know, the Karen stuff with Ryan happened well, later after

1:52:09 that because that was kind of her reaction to it still.

1:52:11 Oh, that's true. Yeah.

1:52:12 So they returned from this trip where she's like, oh, you know,

1:52:15 John wants to treat, cheat on me and stuff.

1:52:18 And so she has kind of like, gone, I think.

1:52:22 I think, as you say, they both knew this relationship was kind

1:52:25 of coming to its end. Yeah.

1:52:26 But Karen decides to send a little flirtatious message to

1:52:30 Brian Higgins. Yeah, so the text messages have

1:52:35 been released. I feel for.

1:52:36 I feel for Brian. So do I, but then if you play

1:52:39 with fire, you're gonna get burnt.

1:52:41 So the defensive put him on the on the stand and questioned him

1:52:44 at length on all of this. And so, yeah, his messages

1:52:48 between the two of them get real flirtatious.

1:52:51 And like, it's, I don't know, it's so awkward.

1:52:55 It is. It is awkward reading other

1:52:56 people's sexy text messages. And the way he goes, like, she's

1:53:01 like, you know, I've always thought you were hot.

1:53:04 Oh, yeah. OK, John.

1:53:06 I John, I thought. John's very interesting.

1:53:08 He's so attractive and. Then you're like, what?

1:53:11 Now you're gonna like, go for Higgins.

1:53:13 Yeah, Higgins is, and he's older and he's just like John is, a

1:53:17 lovely looking man. Eyes.

1:53:18 Oh, he's got beautiful or had beautiful eyes.

1:53:21 Yeah. Anyway, sorry, keep going.

1:53:22 So yeah, she's like messaging me.

1:53:24 Oh, you know, I've always thought you're hot.

1:53:25 And he's like, Oh no, I've always thought you were hot.

1:53:30 Real high school sheet. Could anyway, lengthy text

1:53:32 message is back and forth. This is sort of like the week

1:53:35 prior to this occurring yeah. So there's a bit of something

1:53:38 there like. But the, the this is where the

1:53:40 phone's sheet comes into it. Yeah, Higgins does this bizarre

1:53:44 thing with his phone, and his response to this is also.

1:53:47 Very odd and. This is where I just say they've

1:53:50 just done themselves absolutely no favours.

1:53:52 So when this occurs, Higgins decides to break his SIM and his

1:54:02 take his phone and destroy them and throw them out at a military

1:54:08 base in a dump in two separate dumpsters.

1:54:12 What? Well, how would you do that?

1:54:14 What is on that phone that you're trying to hide?

1:54:17 And his response to this at the time was, you know, that he was,

1:54:20 oh, he was due to get a new phone and he was just getting

1:54:22 rid of it, right? Which makes zero sense.

1:54:24 Makes zero sense. But then to boot the defense or

1:54:28 question him and say, but why would you put it in a dumpster

1:54:31 in a military base like any great his response was I have

1:54:35 every right to do that what I. Mean we're not saying you didn't

1:54:40 have the right. No, I want to know.

1:54:42 Why? Why would you choose to do it

1:54:44 that way? Yeah, I have every right to do

1:54:47 that. Why?

1:54:48 What? It's so weird.

1:54:50 It's. So weird.

1:54:52 And he's not the only person in this who destroys his phone and

1:54:55 gets rid of it. So there's so much that we miss

1:54:58 in terms of data or whatever of people's actions.

1:55:01 What do you think? Like, I don't think he was

1:55:03 involved in anything. The thing I well they're

1:55:06 claiming that maybe he was because get rid of John and he

1:55:09 can have Karen. I don't know they were

1:55:12 prosecute. The defense, sorry, were

1:55:13 claiming he was involved. Where's the evidence to support

1:55:15 that though? There isn't really any or are

1:55:17 they saying that the text messages are?

1:55:19 So what do you think He sent sent Karen a text message saying

1:55:23 oh, make sure you run John over during the Blizzard.

1:55:25 Maybe you can get away with it like.

1:55:27 No, he's saying that he insinuating that he was part of

1:55:30 the beating him up. And oh, OK, OK, yeah.

1:55:33 I mean, which I don't. Which didn't happen.

1:55:35 It didn't happen. No, but they're claiming that

1:55:37 the, yeah, text messages like evidence as to why he would have

1:55:40 motive to do that. I see.

1:55:42 Yeah, well, and they but then the prosecution used those text

1:55:47 messages as evidence as to why Karen would intentionally hit

1:55:51 him and kill him because she's over the relationship and pissed

1:55:54 with him. But The thing is and wants.

1:55:56 To move on to Higgins. She can walk away.

1:55:59 She's got her own home, she's got her own car, she's got her

1:56:01 own everything. If she didn't want to be with

1:56:03 John, she didn't have to be with John, no.

1:56:05 So I don't really buy that. I don't buy that whole stuff,

1:56:07 no. I believe the drunken action

1:56:10 that yeah, yeah. What do you now?

1:56:12 What about Proctor? We haven't kind of gotten into

1:56:15 what happened with him because that is oh fucking hell.

1:56:19 Like honestly. Proctor is a piece of shit.

1:56:23 He's a total piece of shit. Yeah.

1:56:25 So he was removed from the case. No, no he wasn't.

1:56:31 He was the lead. Yeah, he was the lead in the up

1:56:34 until the first trial. He was fired.

1:56:38 When was he fired? In 2024?

1:56:40 So he was still on the on the on the force for a long time after

1:56:44 this. He was fired in the March of

1:56:48 2024. So prior just prior to the

1:56:49 second trial. Yeah, he was fired, but not,

1:56:52 well, I think in general if with his behaviour.

1:56:55 So he was on this case then through the investigation of

1:56:58 this entirety, like, so the evidence of what he has done is

1:57:05 there's group messages, there's people he's spoken to, his

1:57:08 language around Karen, disgusting.

1:57:11 Just gross. He calls her all sorts of

1:57:15 things. So he's not a he's not unbiased.

1:57:20 Unbiased. Yeah, absolutely.

1:57:23 From the, and then we're talking about like literally there's

1:57:24 video footage from a body Cam of him arriving at Karen's house to

1:57:30 arrest her, which they go around the back of her house to go to

1:57:33 get to a door where they go in. And as they're walking around

1:57:36 there on this body Cam footage of this other police officer,

1:57:38 you hear Proctor turn to his colleague and say she's a

1:57:42 fucking bitch. And like, this is very early on

1:57:45 in this investigation. You have no idea of what's going

1:57:47 on here and he is already speaking incredibly demeaningly

1:57:52 of. Her, there are so many texts,

1:57:54 like to his colleagues saying the most derogatory things about

1:57:59 Karen. Yeah.

1:58:00 And, like, it's disgusting. It's the way he talks about her

1:58:04 is absolutely disgusting. Yeah.

1:58:06 So once this is all found out, there is an investigation, you

1:58:12 know, put in place to sort of figure out exactly what's going

1:58:15 on. He was stood down from this case

1:58:17 and then he ended up leaving the police force for a while.

1:58:22 He was suspended for 12 months or something.

1:58:24 He was suspended to begin with, but he was definitely fired at

1:58:27 the end. Yeah, March 2024, he was fired.

1:58:29 Well, fucking good, good work. Because regardless of anything,

1:58:32 you can't. You can't.

1:58:34 You're not. You can't do a job.

1:58:36 You need to be. Unbiased, regardless of who the

1:58:38 subject is. Yeah, whether she's got an arse

1:58:40 or not, does it matter? What?

1:58:42 Yeah, whether, yeah, he commented.

1:58:43 That's right, he commented on a physical appearance on.

1:58:46 Oh, he was just gross. Really repulsive cannot with him

1:58:52 and so and he's yeah his whole demeanour is really off.

1:58:57 But that's where like the police have not something needs to be.

1:59:03 I think really further looked into in terms of in general the

1:59:06 culture everything around the police in that area.

1:59:09 And this is not unknown at all. This is something that's very,

1:59:13 very well known in that Boston police and me a bit corrupt,

1:59:17 Yeah, in that area because, I mean, there's full fucking

1:59:19 movies about it. I mean, yeah.

1:59:20 Was it the The Departed? Yeah.

1:59:22 Departed. Yeah.

1:59:23 That is such a good movie. Watch that movie.

1:59:25 Actually, I'm gonna go and watch it.

1:59:28 Oh, so it's so many great actors in that movie.

1:59:30 But it's all about the fact of like this kind of area, the

1:59:33 corrupt cops of what this area can bring.

1:59:37 And these, to me, these cops very much fit that stereotype,

1:59:41 yeah, of what can happen. And that's where I think it was

1:59:43 very easy for the defence to come in and pick apart this, you

1:59:48 know, this case to a point of going, this is a corrupt cops

1:59:51 issue. Yeah, because prior.

1:59:54 And, and kind of there is like you can see, I mean, I'm not

1:59:57 saying there's hard evidence to show anything in particular, but

2:00:00 you can see where things haven't been done right because they

2:00:02 probably just thought, ah, it'll be fine, You know, we'll get

2:00:05 around this. Or, you know, the fact they

2:00:07 didn't go into the house because because it's a police officer's

2:00:10 house, you know, like that's not OK, but.

2:00:12 It was a police officer who died, too.

2:00:13 Yeah. That's so there's like this real

2:00:15 weird juxtaposition of like, we have to get someone for this

2:00:17 because. It but I do.

2:00:18 Yes, I get that. But I also feel like John wasn't

2:00:22 part of that. Yeah, I like, I feel like he was

2:00:24 like a little bit on the outer and they they were all sticking

2:00:28 together in and of themselves, but John was a bit distant.

2:00:31 And again. That's where I think they've

2:00:32 almost done themselves a disservice in that fact of like

2:00:35 where their stories align a little too much, because I think

2:00:39 they do do the whole I'm not lying about my friend who's the

2:00:42 cop. Like I'm a cop, he's a cop.

2:00:43 My brother's a cop, my sister in law's husband's a cop.

2:00:46 Like I think that they have they they that circle have gotten so

2:00:52 freaking tight on this that it actually makes them look like a

2:00:55 conspiracy. Yeah, I agree.

2:00:57 When it's not. I agree.

2:00:59 Yeah, I that's really, I think really done it.

2:01:02 Yeah, yeah, yeah. So basically when this went to

2:01:08 trial for the first time, I think we've mentioned that, you

2:01:11 know, it was a hung jury. So the jury deliberated the

2:01:15 first time. It was for quite a few days.

2:01:17 They then said to the judge that they couldn't reach a verdict.

2:01:19 The judge said they needed to try and deliberate a little bit

2:01:22 longer. Yeah, they've done that.

2:01:23 They were still unable to reach a verdict.

2:01:25 And it was apparently, according to the jury foreperson, the

2:01:29 divide was staunch and strong and they were never going to be

2:01:32 able to come to a a unanimous decision.

2:01:35 The other element of that with that first trial and the jury

2:01:38 that I still, this is where I feel like the judge was.

2:01:40 Shit. Yeah, was what they were given

2:01:44 to mark down their outcome and I do fully agree with the defence

2:01:48 on this. This does not seem right.

2:01:51 No, they were given a piece of a card or whatever that they had

2:01:54 to mark on whether they whether she was guilty of the certain

2:01:59 charges and if they believe she was not guilty, they would just

2:02:04 to not mark anything. So that's where I think this got

2:02:08 really great. And I believe the jury were

2:02:11 confused by it, too, because they kept coming back with

2:02:13 questions. I was going to say, they did

2:02:14 come back with questions. About it, the defence kept

2:02:17 saying it's because of the car and what you've given them to

2:02:20 Mark isn't what I've never dealt with before.

2:02:22 Yeah, it's not clear enough and the judge really keep my eyes is

2:02:25 what we do here because he was not from the area.

2:02:27 He was from LA. She kept, Really.

2:02:30 Yeah, she didn't like that like that.

2:02:31 She did not like it. So she don't do it like.

2:02:34 That yeah, look, I feel like they could have gone for a

2:02:36 mistrial anyway based on the bias towards the prosecution by

2:02:40 the judge, because she was. Yeah.

2:02:42 Oh, she there was a. Fair.

2:02:44 Oh yes, so much of that. Both trials, yeah.

2:02:46 Felt for yeah. Yeah, it was bad.

2:02:48 I agree. Yeah, she was shit.

2:02:50 But that that particularly that one, I look, there's lots of

2:02:53 other like there's lots of things she let in, as we said

2:02:55 earlier, that shouldn't have been as well from the defence.

2:02:58 So a little both ways. But this particularly this the

2:03:01 way she conducted the jury, I feel was very biased.

2:03:05 I agree. A piece handing back a card with

2:03:09 no mark on it. Means anyone could mark

2:03:11 anything. Anyone could either mark

2:03:12 anything or she could say, oh, it's a mistrial because yeah,

2:03:15 when when actually in fact, no, it's not guilty, but you just

2:03:18 didn't tell us where to mark, how to do that.

2:03:20 Agreed. So it could be misinterpreted

2:03:23 that and that's what the defence were saying too.

2:03:24 This is not clear enough so. Anyway, it ended in a mistrial

2:03:28 and so they had to have the second trial, which I remember

2:03:32 the media around that was just, it blew up like it was already

2:03:35 big. And then, yeah, you know, this,

2:03:37 the Karen Reed retrial, bloody hell, that just blew up.

2:03:40 Yes. But basically the end of that

2:03:42 was that she was found not guilty of the charge of.

2:03:47 Second degree and manslaughter. And manslaughter, But she was

2:03:51 convicted of operating under the influence of a motor, like with

2:03:55 a motor operating a motor vehicle under the influence.

2:03:58 Yeah. And she was sentenced to 12

2:04:00 months probation. Yeah.

2:04:01 So again, this one I find a little bit interesting in terms

2:04:04 of just that. Now she as we said what her

2:04:06 blood alcohol limit, we don't know specifically.

2:04:08 We're basing it on science sort of stuff that potentially around

2:04:12 .29 right now, the way they work their system of this.

2:04:17 So that what she got convicted of and what the sentence was, is

2:04:20 what anyone would get on their first offence of driving.

2:04:25 That was her first offence of driving over point O 8.

2:04:30 Now there's a big difference to me of driving at point O 9 right

2:04:35 and driving at .29. But I think what they, so her

2:04:40 defence argued though in that, that they can't say for sure

2:04:43 that's what it was because she also said, And so they, I think

2:04:46 they ended up, they ended up sentencing her based on the .13

2:04:51 because that was the only hard evidence they had, right?

2:04:54 And they couldn't, you can't, there was no solid evidence

2:04:57 there. So I think that's why that ended

2:04:59 up so I can kind of come at 12 months probation for a .13, I'd

2:05:03 agree with you. At a .29 I feel like she should

2:05:05 have been incarcerated. There's like, you know, point,

2:05:07 yeah, between .08 and points and point something else there's.

2:05:11 This. And then there's this and then

2:05:13 this. There's brackets, yeah.

2:05:14 This felt like the way it was. It's worded if it's if you're

2:05:17 .08. Or .29 or point.

2:05:20 Five, yeah, literally you get the same but but you'd get the

2:05:24 same like offence and I'm like, that's doesn't seem right.

2:05:28 Yeah, I I think that's what what it was, OK.

2:05:30 Yeah, I can come at that. Yeah, yeah.

2:05:32 Oh, wow. Because so, yeah, all she's

2:05:34 ended up with is that and that's.

2:05:35 So there's no jail time with that.

2:05:37 It's she's just a probationary license, not even loss of

2:05:40 license probation. So because nothing we didn't.

2:05:45 And I don't like to bring him back again, but.

2:05:48 I'm fucking turtle boy again. Yeah, sorry, don't go for it.

2:05:51 So in this, because we're talking about two trials here,

2:05:53 Yeah. And obviously with that

2:05:55 conviction, there is a fine with it, not a big one, but you have

2:05:58 to say, I mean these aren't cheap lawyers.

2:06:01 So she's gone through one trial and then a second trial at no

2:06:05 point. And I, and this is particularly,

2:06:06 I actually found this in the documentary where because the

2:06:09 documentary ends at the end of the first trial.

2:06:11 Yeah. So I remember listening, seeing

2:06:14 her reaction to the fact that they've got a retrial and she's

2:06:17 sitting in the car and talking about the fact, you know, we've

2:06:19 got to do this again. And, you know, and I'm like, I

2:06:22 know in my personal situation, I would be like, Oh my God, I've

2:06:27 got to go through this again. And not only have I got to go

2:06:29 through this again mentally, but how am I going to afford to pay

2:06:32 you guys? I can't keep you guys here.

2:06:34 I can't even afford what I'm paying you now.

2:06:35 Like that would be an element of this.

2:06:37 That would be a really real high concern.

2:06:39 It wasn't for Karen. Turtle boy raised, oh, hundreds

2:06:46 of thousands. No, it was.

2:06:47 Into the millions it was into the millions it got to there.

2:06:49 Yep. So they she didn't have to worry

2:06:51 about. Well, that she still did because

2:06:54 at the end of the day, I think all told, she ended up spending

2:06:57 about 5 million on her lawyers. Yeah.

2:07:00 Where all that money come from? Well, I think it was, I think

2:07:03 her parents helped. I think there was sale of assets

2:07:06 and all of that sort of stuff. And I think her lawyers actually

2:07:09 gave her some. I mean their.

2:07:11 Allowances because they've. Publicity.

2:07:13 Absolutely. So I think told she was kind of

2:07:17 able to mostly come up with it, I think a.

2:07:19 Lot of it came from it did. A very, very significant portion

2:07:24 came from this crowd. Fundraising, crowdfunding.

2:07:28 Yeah. But then I was reading in terms

2:07:31 of the cost of this, just the security for the second trial

2:07:36 cost Massachusetts State 250,000 U.S. dollars, just the security

2:07:42 for the trial. Because the people at the front

2:07:44 of these trials, there was literally, there was the blue

2:07:47 crowd. Yep.

2:07:47 Which were all the cops and all for, like, getting someone for.

2:07:50 They're all like, justice for Johnny Keith.

2:07:52 Yep. And then there's the pink side.

2:07:53 Yep. And there was a lot of people.

2:07:55 Do you think? It's so funny how in in the

2:07:58 documentary, yeah, they, you know, some they were like, oh,

2:08:01 why, you know, is pink your favorite colour?

2:08:03 And she's like, oh, I would never wear pink, but but, you

2:08:06 know, I suppose it's my favorite colour.

2:08:08 So they just ran with it. She didn't like it.

2:08:12 I can't stand her. I actually can't stand her.

2:08:14 I was. That was my next question for

2:08:15 you, actually, Yeah. What do you think about her

2:08:17 personally? She's not someone I'd be.

2:08:19 Friends with no way. There's nothing genuine about

2:08:21 her. I think she's nasty.

2:08:23 I think, I don't know that she's just not a likable person.

2:08:27 I don't think she is to be honest.

2:08:28 I I see her as being. She's very self-centered.

2:08:34 Yes, that's that's the element of her that I'm like and that's

2:08:36 where I kind of go. I bet you were, you know, good

2:08:38 with the kids. And people do say that about it,

2:08:40 you know, and I sort of. But whereas who?

2:08:42 And she comes across really cold like in the documentary as well

2:08:46 and in general. And people said that about her

2:08:48 when she's in in a. I don't want to judge her on how

2:08:52 she is in the courtroom. Yeah, because I cannot imagine

2:08:55 as an innocent person, say, having to know that like people

2:08:58 are saying things that you don't agree with, whether you're

2:09:00 guilty or innocent, like going I'd I'd get really flustered of

2:09:04 like people saying things that isn't true and things I can get

2:09:06 like you have to sit there and just try and keep straight faced

2:09:09 and stoic and like, you know, people didn't like her turn

2:09:11 around talking to her parents. I'm sorry.

2:09:13 I'd be like turning to them 20,000 times in a day going.

2:09:16 I need support here. Like looking for support like.

2:09:18 Just looking for a friend. I wouldn't want to be judged for

2:09:21 how I behave. In that but but but you do see

2:09:24 in that documentary the difference and I've I found that

2:09:27 that kind of graded me a little. Who she was in front of the jury

2:09:32 and then like as she would speak to the camera, I just found her

2:09:35 as someone who was wasn't overly likable.

2:09:37 She's not likable. She's not likable at.

2:09:39 All at one point she talks about the fact of like that she's

2:09:41 great, she grieved John and now she's got a job.

2:09:44 She because I've got to fight for my life and there's an

2:09:46 element of it that I can come at.

2:09:48 Yep. But I can, I could not think of

2:09:51 a way of decompartmentalizing where when you're going over all

2:09:55 this in a court case where there wouldn't be moments that would

2:09:59 be hard. Oh, and it would break you.

2:10:01 Oh, for sure. And but then there's.

2:10:04 Also, there's also that scene in the documentary where her lawyer

2:10:07 basically said to her you can't react to anything because if you

2:10:11 react in one way, it's interpreted this way.

2:10:13 If you react in react in another way, it'll be interpreted like

2:10:16 this. You literally cannot react.

2:10:17 So I don't know how you would. Do it.

2:10:19 I don't know how you'd do that. I think you could take that on

2:10:22 and and yeah, I would do my absolute best, but I'm sorry,

2:10:25 but hearing things about John, about what happened to him and

2:10:31 he how he was exposed to the cold and what that would have

2:10:33 done to him. Yeah, the injuries and how that

2:10:34 would have. I think we're getting down to

2:10:36 that's that side of. Things, yeah, I don't.

2:10:38 Think you could sit there and not feel something I even.

2:10:41 Feel like when? Because in the first trial the

2:10:43 niece and nephew gave testimony, in the second trial it was just

2:10:46 the niece, right? I think, I think even hearing

2:10:50 them talk, because even just feeling how awful those poor

2:10:53 kids, I mean, we haven't even touched on that.

2:10:55 They've lost their mum and dad and now their uncle who was like

2:10:58 their dad, you know, those poor bloody kids.

2:11:01 I can't even imagine. I mean, they're, they're young

2:11:05 teenagers or ones in their early 20s now, but I, I just, I can't

2:11:10 even imagine those poor children.

2:11:13 Not at all. It really it actually that that.

2:11:16 And if that can't get you even even though you're saying, yeah,

2:11:20 OK, I've got a fight for my life now.

2:11:21 I'm yeah, but. At the end of the day, you're

2:11:24 human. That's gonna get you.

2:11:26 Surely. Yeah, you had a relationship

2:11:28 with those kids. Yeah, for two years.

2:11:31 Yeah. Like, yeah, I found that a bit,

2:11:33 yeah. And that's off.

2:11:34 So something that came up more so in the second trial than the

2:11:37 first was the location data and stuff.

2:11:41 Oh yes, which I just want to touch on as.

2:11:44 Well, go, go for it. Because there's a lot in that

2:11:46 that the prosecution used. And one element element was that

2:11:51 his phone showed that he had never been indoors.

2:11:54 Yeah. Now there is data in your phone

2:11:58 that you can do that and it based, it's based on

2:11:59 temperature, yeah. And obviously the temperatures

2:12:01 where at this point, yeah, there would be a significant change.

2:12:04 And as we were saying, that's right, The difference between

2:12:07 outside in a Blizzard and inside in a warm home, yeah, it would

2:12:10 have been massive. Yeah.

2:12:12 Today, our temperature inside would probably be very.

2:12:14 Similar. It would be very similar.

2:12:15 You wouldn't, it wouldn't be. But yeah, these conditions, I

2:12:18 feel like that that is a very reliable.

2:12:20 I. Fully data.

2:12:21 Yep. Compared to what the defense

2:12:23 used that data for, which they talked a lot about him having

2:12:27 logged 80 steps after supposedly he exited the car, yes, going up

2:12:33 three flight of stairs, yeah, there's all that sort of data

2:12:37 that there was. But I just have to say, how

2:12:41 accurate is your phone on that stuff?

2:12:44 It's not very. I can actually give a bit of a

2:12:46 bit of a tidbit. So when we're in South Korea,

2:12:49 you know, your phone tracks, obviously.

2:12:51 So my friend was wearing a watch, right?

2:12:55 And at the end of the day, I was just looking at my phone and I

2:12:57 was like, I wonder how many steps or how far we've walked

2:12:59 today, right? And mine said, oh, say it was

2:13:04 like 18,000, something like that.

2:13:07 My girlfriend, who was wearing her watch her, said we'd done

2:13:10 35,000 steps. Well, I mean, OK, part of me

2:13:14 goes some people walk, have more steps than someone else in.

2:13:17 Different gait yeah, that's fine.

2:13:18 But that's but not that that's different.

2:13:20 So I'm like, well, my phone obviously had no.

2:13:21 Idea often, like we'll go to like, say the zoo for the day

2:13:23 with my kids yeah, and it's similar and like I always go

2:13:25 like I I would do half as many steps as they would because one,

2:13:29 my steps are bigger than their steps but also they walk in it,

2:13:33 you know, yeah, like yeah. Yeah, they don't pass straight.

2:13:35 They're here. They're they're everywhere.

2:13:37 Yeah. They're running around like at

2:13:38 lunchtime whilst I'm sitting having coffee, like you know,

2:13:41 those sorts of things. But yeah, so there's but there's

2:13:44 definitely not. They're not.

2:13:47 Each phone is different with that stuff.

2:13:49 Not only that, like. I don't think it's reliable data

2:13:51 is what we're saying. I, I've had like, I knew that

2:13:53 my, I'd left my Airpods at home one day, but I was like, I want

2:13:57 to just check right. So I got on and I checked my

2:14:00 where they were. It said that they were in my

2:14:02 next door neighbour's house. Yeah, right.

2:14:04 And so I'm like, that's close enough here that I've clearly

2:14:06 have I have left them at home. I comfortable with that.

2:14:08 My my neighbor has not stolen my.

2:14:10 Airpods. Yeah, pretty sure, yeah.

2:14:15 So whereas they use this data like down to that point of like

2:14:17 saying like this is where he was located and stuff.

2:14:19 And I just, and the 80 steps and things like him moving with

2:14:24 being pushed back by the car could potentially equate to your

2:14:28 phone going, oh, that's 80 steps, yeah.

2:14:30 But the other thing is as well, the three flights of stairs,

2:14:33 like there was a there were stairs up to the front door, but

2:14:37 he would like regardless, he would have gone up the stairs if

2:14:42 he even did, and then back down the stairs again.

2:14:44 No, that what the defence say is that it's it's actually the the

2:14:47 steps because it's not necessarily just up.

2:14:49 It just says going up or down flights of stairs.

2:14:52 It calculates. Yeah, but what they say three

2:14:54 flights. What are they saying?

2:14:55 They go up into the front door? Yeah, down into the basement and

2:14:59 then him coming back up to be put on the lawn.

2:15:05 OK. That's what they say because

2:15:07 they reckon they have a hot They mapped this out entirely, OK,

2:15:10 They reckoned it was. Yeah, up the front stairs, down

2:15:12 the the basement, up the basement.

2:15:14 And then they went out the back where there's no more stairs.

2:15:16 Yeah, around out front, the side.

2:15:18 Gate there. Yeah, OK.

2:15:19 Dumped him on the lawn. Yeah, yeah, OK.

2:15:21 Yeah, that's so that's how they equate the three flights of

2:15:23 stairs. But I, I reckon, I know I've had

2:15:26 days where I've looked at my data on my phone and I'm done

2:15:29 the whole like, Oh my God, I feel like I've walked 1,000,000

2:15:31 miles and but done no stairs. And it'll say I've done 10

2:15:35 flights of stairs and I have it. I've walked on a flat zoo or

2:15:38 whatever for the day, you know, like, yeah, so.

2:15:42 Yeah, I think. I think, yeah, again, what we're

2:15:44 saying, unreliable data. We don't believe it.

2:15:46 Like you can't, you can't hang a fucking murder case on this.

2:15:48 No, no murder. Case, and that's where I was

2:15:50 saying at the beginning about how like, I think we have too

2:15:53 much data being brought into this like and stuff and too much

2:15:55 information. Sometimes, see, this is where

2:15:57 the judge should be like, no, you're not tendering that as

2:15:59 evidence because it's not sound. Yeah.

2:16:02 This is it because they just bring just bring in their own

2:16:04 express and they cancel each other out Exactly of the day.

2:16:07 Which one am I supposed to believe?

2:16:09 And it becomes too messy. And that's exactly what happened

2:16:12 in this case. I can totally understand why the

2:16:17 jury in the second trial acquitted her.

2:16:20 I. Yes, and that's I was going to

2:16:22 come to this too like yes, I actually as much as I've said

2:16:26 today, I believe she did hit him.

2:16:27 I believe she hit him with the car and she has fault here.

2:16:31 However, I 100% believe due to the fact that the defence were a

2:16:36 very good at their job, they have planted reasonable doubt

2:16:41 and therefore she should have been acquitted.

2:16:43 Agreed. I do agree with that, yeah, the

2:16:46 outcome was what it was purely based on very good defence.

2:16:50 The theatrics of the of the court.

2:16:53 They have found every and ultimately this falls back on

2:16:57 the poor police work. If the police had done their job

2:17:00 properly and they they get go. If these people weren't all

2:17:03 police officers particularly manipulating some aspects of

2:17:06 this, then the defence wouldn't have been able to pick apart so

2:17:10 much I. Fully agree.

2:17:11 Then we wouldn't have this issue.

2:17:14 Yeah. And it would have been a more

2:17:16 fair trial. Yeah, yeah.

2:17:19 Yeah. And again, as we spoke about the

2:17:21 beginning, I 100% believe that if from the get go this was we

2:17:28 think that you've hit him with the car, we don't think you've

2:17:31 done it purposefully. We do think that this is what's

2:17:33 caused his death. You do need to cop something for

2:17:36 this. That's that it would be.

2:17:40 Not like it's vehicular manslaughter, then.

2:17:43 If you're driving under the influence and you kill someone,

2:17:45 yeah, it's not intentional, but you've still done the wrong

2:17:48 thing. And you were there.

2:17:49 Well, but did she even know? This is it.

2:17:51 Did she know or not? That's a question, I guess, and

2:17:53 I don't know whether if that's she would have potentially in

2:17:56 that situation, you'd play your way to a deal a source, right of

2:18:00 like whether what you're willing to admit to and what you would

2:18:03 go with. But because and again, because I

2:18:05 think he was a cop, there was an element of someone's got to go

2:18:09 down for it because it's a cop who's been killed.

2:18:10 He was not on duty. And I don't think that should

2:18:12 change anyone's take on like, whether or not someone needs to

2:18:16 be, you know, held accountable. But he wasn't on duty.

2:18:19 It wasn't in the line of fire that he was killed.

2:18:21 So I don't know that the police should have gone so hard down on

2:18:23 that of like, Nah, let's get her entirely for like, Nah, she

2:18:26 intentionally did this. No, this was a, you know, she

2:18:29 murdered him. That's where I think this has

2:18:32 gone completely too far. Too far.

2:18:35 Yeah, I I agree. I actually agree with all of

2:18:38 what you're saying, I think. I think, although I'm pretty

2:18:40 sure she did it and didn't know she'd done.

2:18:42 It yeah, I I do maybe. And that's where I think there's

2:18:46 that. She's go, Oh my God, did I hit

2:18:48 him? Yeah, because.

2:18:49 She doesn't remember. She doesn't know.

2:18:50 She even says to to to Jen the next morning.

2:18:53 Like I don't even remember what happened last night.

2:18:55 I think she's kind of. Gone.

2:18:56 And if you're .29, of course you don't fucking remember.

2:18:59 You'd black out like they'd. I'm sure they'd be blocking

2:19:01 spots all throughout the night. Yeah, with that or I can also

2:19:05 come out a slight slight where she's so drunk she knew she hit

2:19:09 him, didn't know how hard and went buggy out.

2:19:12 Nah, you can stuffy. So I'm going like, and she's

2:19:14 that cross and she's driven off and and in hindsight has gone,

2:19:20 how hard did I actually hit him? Did he get back up?

2:19:22 I didn't even look like I can come at that too.

2:19:26 And that's that is little that's more culpable.

2:19:29 Yeah. But still it it comes back to

2:19:31 that how drunk you weren't driving and you should not have

2:19:33 been fucking driving that car, No and drinking no.

2:19:36 Go get drunk. Oh, fucking.

2:19:38 By all means, get a taxi, yeah. Get an rebar.

2:19:41 Yeah. Drink at home so you don't have

2:19:43 to drive anywhere. Yeah, Yeah.

2:19:45 No, I'm, I, I, I I cannot come at drink driving regardless,

2:19:49 even if it's no, just no. It's it's, it's a hard, hard no

2:19:54 no. Definitely.

2:19:55 You're not, you're not risking. It's not about you, you know, do

2:19:58 you know what if you're going to drink and drive and it's you

2:20:00 that gets, you know, injured, killed, whatever fucking on you,

2:20:04 it's about everyone else on that road that you're causing.

2:20:06 You're putting them in danger when they did nothing to be

2:20:08 evolved. For sure.

2:20:09 That's what I cannot, yeah. Yeah, agreed.

2:20:13 Yeah. All right.

2:20:15 I think that kind of brings us to a little bit of a natural

2:20:17 end. Here.

2:20:18 Yeah, like. I mean, look, to be honest, I

2:20:21 think we could probably talk around this for days and there

2:20:23 is so much more evidence that was actually introduced that,

2:20:26 you know, we could talk about. But there's lots of little

2:20:28 things. And as you were saying before,

2:20:30 all of the things are then counteracted.

2:20:32 So they kind of end up being moot points anyway.

2:20:35 I would and I'm sure you feel the same way.

2:20:37 We would love to know what everyone thinks.

2:20:40 I feel like I'm in this. I'm like, I feel like I was at a

2:20:43 when I was researching this, I was came at it from so much of

2:20:45 the down for the conspiracy here for it.

2:20:48 I I really think these people are pieces of shit.

2:20:50 All of them in it. And then to flip by the end of

2:20:53 this, I'm like, people are gonna be so angry with me.

2:20:55 Nobody's gonna be angry. Yeah, they will.

2:20:57 No. No, we're all entitled to our

2:20:59 own opinions and as long as. They're in the comments.

2:21:02 Let us know. Be respectful.

2:21:03 Yeah, but let us know. We're super interested to know

2:21:05 what you think. Yeah, because.

2:21:07 Everyone is very like fixed on these on this and everyone get

2:21:11 has very strong opinions. Generally speaking, it's that

2:21:14 she's innocent and I. Yeah, yeah, I'm with you.

2:21:19 Look, I still find it hard to say Yes, I definitely think this

2:21:22 happened because. Because everyone was drunk.

2:21:24 Everyone was drunk. Exactly.

2:21:26 That's it. So it's really hard to say, but

2:21:28 yeah. Anyway, please let us know what

2:21:30 you think. Join us over on Patreon if you

2:21:32 want a bonus episode every month so you can join us at

2:21:36 patreon.com. Two crime besties all written

2:21:39 out in one word. Next week we are talking about

2:21:43 the killer cult and especially the death of a young girl by the

2:21:48 name of Elizabeth Stews. Is that how you say the surname?

2:21:51 Sorry if it's not I'll. I'll figure out the right

2:21:53 pronunciation during the week. Thanks to everybody who has

2:21:57 bought us a coffee, joined us over on Patreon, likes and

2:22:00 comments. All of it really, really helps

2:22:02 us and it is so very much appreciated by us.

2:22:05 We just really feel like we're really building our community at

2:22:09 the minute and it's, it's really fun.

2:22:11 Really, really fun for us. Crazy.

2:22:13 Who thought who? To thunk it.

2:22:15 All right. Well, I hope everybody has a

2:22:17 great week. Yes, absolutely.

2:22:20 Stay curious. Crime besties.

2:22:21 Bye.