Episode 65 - The Missing Campers: Russell Hill & Carol Clay

0:15 Welcome back to Crime Besties. Here we are for another episode.

0:18 Another week has gone by. It has been school holidays and

0:23 we're recording on a Thursday night, which is a little

0:25 different to normal. Just realized too actually it's

0:29 Thursday night. So it's Thursday, the 25th of

0:30 September. You're here.

0:33 I'm here. You know what that means?

0:35 What? We didn't get raptured.

0:38 Oh. It's.

0:39 True, it's true. That kind of tells me that maybe

0:43 whatever God you believe in, I think she must listen to our

0:45 podcast. Thank you ma'am.

0:50 It. Makes sense.

0:51 We'll. Take it, whatever, I love it.

0:57 How's your week been? You've had a little bit of time

1:01 without kids, Bit of R&R, much needed R&R.

1:05 How's it been? Yeah, it's been quiet.

1:07 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Had a pedicure.

1:10 No. Yeah, A.

1:12 Couple of like just. Lanes, you know, like just wake

1:14 up and they just go. I don't have to be up.

1:17 Oh, they're a lovely. Scroll my phone till it finishes

1:19 sort of stuff, you know, and just what ifs.

1:23 It doesn't ever finish though, no.

1:25 That's the problem. Until you've had enough of it.

1:27 All right. Yeah, there are.

1:28 Ideas that I can do. It's not that I have.

1:30 To do them, yeah. Oh, that's so nice.

1:33 Yeah, that's been nice to do that.

1:35 And then but I've had some nice dinners out with friends and

1:37 catch ups. One particular and we worked out

1:39 when we got there, hadn't seen her in 12 months and that's

1:41 that's not OK. No, no, no, no.

1:44 Like obviously we're talking but not caught up in person.

1:47 And so I was like, oh, that's not OK.

1:49 No. So we've locked in another one

1:50 before Christmas. Just.

1:51 Yeah, good idea. Counteract that.

1:53 They're like, yeah, so that's nice, yeah.

1:55 Get to time to do those things. And you know, I was, I was gonna

1:57 go into work, but I haven't. Good girl I.

2:00 Thought no. No, no, that's not right.

2:02 No, you've got holidays for a reason.

2:04 Yeah, and much needed. You've been camping.

2:07 That's. That's the, that's the, that's

2:09 the antithesis of a holiday. It's like, so we went away with

2:15 a couple of families from school and we went not far, about an

2:22 hour and a half from home. The park we stayed at, we stayed

2:26 at a big four. It was great.

2:27 There were so many facilities for the kids I love about.

2:30 It was just I prefer to do that with the kids that even like an

2:33 Airbnb for that reason, like not the camping side of it.

2:36 I'll get a cabin, thank you very much.

2:39 Yeah. The fact that they've got bike

2:41 tracks and like one off benches had a mini golf course, yeah.

2:45 I had a mini golf, yeah. Tennis, Yeah.

2:47 Basketball. Basketball.

2:48 It had a swimming pool it. Was yeah.

2:50 So they could swim. And even though it was cold.

2:53 Yeah, there's a games room. It had foosball and air hockey.

2:56 Oh. So it was very well set up.

2:58 Yeah. We barely saw them.

2:59 Which was? That's always.

3:01 Good, yeah. Yeah, and you?

3:03 Know they're off their devices and all that sort of stuff it's

3:05 good yeah it's very very good that's it so that was a look

3:09 there were really good parts of but I'm not a camper I'm really

3:13 just not that into it because OK so I came home and I was like

3:17 the first day it absolutely pissed down all right so

3:22 everything got wet everything needed washing when we got home

3:26 and I'm like literally everything I just said to you

3:31 before we got home yesterday I'm pretty sure I'm like 7 or 8

3:34 loads in and I think I've just hit the halfway mark oh.

3:37 No. What on earth are you washing?

3:40 Like so we took bathers towels. Yeah, OK.

3:43 Towels for us. Yes.

3:45 So that's, you know, 3 loads there basically.

3:48 Wow. Then we've got.

3:49 You always load your load your washable shop like I do.

3:53 We've actually got a pretty big washing machine too.

3:55 I think it's like 10 kilos. I shove that shit.

3:57 In. We've got Oh no, that'll fit in

3:59 one load. Oh, no, see, I'm like, I like a

4:01 bit of space in the washing machine.

4:02 Yeah. Especially because most of this

4:04 stuff was really filthy. Yeah, that's fair.

4:06 And then we had like all of the sleeping bags need because

4:11 they're all a bit damp. They needed a walk like just

4:14 there's Oh my God, I walked into the laundry just before and I'm

4:18 like, it's so fucking overwhelming.

4:21 But it'll get there. It'll get there.

4:23 It's we're recording this the day before the grand final

4:26 public holiday in Victoria. So I've got a long weekend now

4:29 to that's really. Not what you want to spend your

4:31 long weekend doing either. No, no it's not.

4:34 I'll get it done. Like at least I've got the time

4:36 to do it and I'm not sort of piecemealing it.

4:38 It'll be fine. Yeah, but the actual camping,

4:41 look for what it was, it was great.

4:42 Good company and everything and the kids had a ball.

4:45 And I do get the appeal of it if the weather is perfect, but.

4:52 They say you're using like toilet blocks and stuff.

4:55 No, no, we had an on sweet side. So which is?

4:58 Actually the way to camping. So we had our own toilet shower,

5:01 OK, on our on our side. Yeah, that was good.

5:05 I don't like toilet blocks. Or I know it makes me sound so

5:08 precious. I know.

5:09 No, no, I sleep under 5 stars. Thank you very much.

5:12 Yeah. Not 25,000.

5:14 I mean, the stars out there were beautiful, but I'm telling you

5:17 what, we were not slumming it because one of our friends, he's

5:20 a tradie and he brought his work van.

5:23 Yeah. And inside his work van, he's

5:25 got a microwave and air cooker, air fryer.

5:29 We had a slushy machine. We had a projector.

5:32 The kids watched movies at night.

5:33 Like it was not really, no, it was not really slumming at.

5:37 Yeah. Yeah, we had everything we

5:38 wanted and then some. Yeah, but it's just that the

5:42 comfortable couch that you can't have or I don't know.

5:47 Yeah, it's not the same. I get the appeal of it, but also

5:49 it's not really my thing. But anyway, we had fun and it

5:52 was good and it was a good way to keep the kids entertained for

5:54 half a week during the school holidays.

5:56 Yes. Yeah, no good.

5:58 No. And it gets the kids out and

6:00 doing things. All that's it, that's it Fair.

6:03 That was us next week. I don't know.

6:04 I'm working and I don't know it's that juggle back to the

6:08 normal juggle next week and. Yeah, yeah, we head off next

6:11 week for our our trip. So yeah, I'm looking.

6:13 Forward to that, that'll be nice.

6:14 How many nights are you going for just?

6:16 33 nights, yeah, and again, only like 2 1/2 hours away.

6:19 It's not a huge drive, but lots of things planned.

6:22 I've booked all the extra bits and pieces now that we're gonna

6:24 do, so I'm feeling like we're gonna have a a good time.

6:28 Yeah, you will. Yeah, that'll be fun.

6:30 That'll be really good. Yes, a glass of fino in the

6:33 evenings. Oh yes, I mean, that's the that

6:36 that is a saving grace of camping.

6:38 Yeah, I don't know who I am really, because before when you

6:40 said to me like another glass of wine, I went on, no, I'm driving

6:43 and then went, no, we've got a. Good.

6:45 At least a couple of hours. We've got to get it.

6:49 So yes, we are partaking in a a vena or two and came over for

6:52 dinner before we started recording.

6:55 She was subjected to the chaos of food.

6:57 Oh. My God, the chaos.

6:59 The food was good. I was just enjoying the food.

7:01 Food was amazing. The chaos is nothing.

7:06 Kids were eating like what is this?

7:08 What's going on? Yeah.

7:10 Yeah, kids sitting at the table. What?

7:11 Oh God, he. Already sit on a.

7:16 Chair, that would be amazing. Yep, he needs a wobble cushion.

7:20 He's got one. Oh, OK.

7:24 Shoot me. All right.

7:25 OK, Say no more. Say no more.

7:28 We were talking before we hit record today as well about how

7:32 much engagement we've had over the last week.

7:34 We were blown away. So first of all, Steph D'souza,

7:38 who I think we've mentioned on the podcast before, she's she

7:42 gave us a really generous buy me a coffee donation.

7:46 Oh my God, a few months ago now. Yeah.

7:48 And she actually, and in the hour episode, we were like, I

7:51 wonder if she'll do a shout out for us.

7:53 And she actually did on Instagram, I think it was, and

7:57 TikTok and she just put our tagline in there.

8:00 And we think we've seen like a massive uptake uptick on, yeah,

8:05 listens from her. So any of you listening who came

8:08 from Steph? First of all, thanks for coming

8:10 over here and checking us out. Yes.

8:12 Second all of all to Steph, thank you.

8:15 But we can't officially. Thank you enough, friend of the

8:17 podcast, I'm gonna say. Friend of the podcast Steph

8:20 D'souza Yes, you are. You have no choice but to be

8:23 now. No, no, you're stuck with us.

8:25 Yeah, that's it once you're stuck.

8:27 You never want to. Go back good, you're stuck.

8:30 We've had some really gorgeous comments this week.

8:32 We had Shannon, who sent us a message about her dad's Steve.

8:36 So Shannon Mccritchie sent us a message.

8:39 She said her dad got us onto our podcast.

8:42 He doesn't have any social media or anything like that.

8:44 And she asked us to give him a shout out.

8:46 So Steve, first of all, what a rad dad.

8:49 Yeah, and just for him. Absolute piece of shit these

8:52 characters we talk about. Are they he?

8:55 Loves it apparently, so we will keep going.

8:58 So thanks Steve and thanks Shannon for you know, for

9:01 thinking to contact us and love and give your dad a shout out.

9:05 So thank you and we love it that we've got some men followers and

9:08 we have a. Few.

9:10 Quite a few comments this week from men, so thank you because

9:12 you're certainly not our key demographic.

9:16 So any of you who want to be here will take it.

9:19 Another one we had Anthony making lots of comments this.

9:22 He's made some suggestions. I need to go and look into it.

9:25 It's a different one to what I didn't know anything about it,

9:27 so I'm going to do a bit. I'll look into that one and it

9:30 sounds very. Very.

9:31 We'll have to add it to the list.

9:33 And then we had, OK, I'm going to butcher this username.

9:37 It's ads. Hey Simons, who's also given us

9:41 some really nice comment on Spotify.

9:45 And then last but not least, we've got 2 new Patreons this

9:49 week. A massive, massive shout out to

9:52 Amy James and Leanne Lydon. Leanne, I think both of them

9:56 have actually given us, but like have bought us coffees before.

10:00 But the names certainly sound familiar.

10:02 So thank you ladies for joining us over on Patreon.

10:06 Just before we hit record, we actually popped a couple of

10:08 photos of our setup to everyone. So if that's something that

10:12 you're interested in and want to know a bit more about the

10:14 process, because we did have a question this week about that

10:16 too. Maybe our next Patreon episode

10:19 can be a little bit more about how we do what we do and our

10:22 process. And but yeah, and the other

10:25 thing to note is we've got a Patreon episode that's coming

10:29 up. We'll probably release that this

10:31 week. Yeah, I think we released that

10:32 this week, yeah. Excellent.

10:34 Cool. Very good.

10:37 We mentioned too that within the coming weeks we've got obviously

10:42 the episode that we're recording right now will be released and

10:45 then the following week we will have a week off from releases.

10:49 So just taking a break for just for the one week.

10:52 If you're over on Patreon though, you will get an extra

10:54 episode over there. So come and join us there if you

10:57 want to get a little bonus episode of us for the for that.

11:00 So you'll get the ones that we've already dropped obviously,

11:02 and that new one that will come and then we'll pick back up

11:05 again a week later. Should we give a little teaser

11:08 about what that Patreon only episode's about?

11:10 Oh yes, the one that we've recorded already.

11:12 Yeah, yes, we can. So we've recorded already and it

11:17 is about Real Housewives crime. And there's so much of it.

11:23 Oh, there is. So much of it we.

11:25 Didn't I? I reckon we barely even scratch

11:27 the surface. Really we've we've gone from

11:29 like, you know, the the biggest ones that we.

11:31 Thought of oh, you could. Find.

11:32 Yeah, but I'm oh man, there's many.

11:33 Many, so many Duis, so many misdemeanors and.

11:36 Then there's the crime. Fashion.

11:38 I mean, really. We didn't even touch on that

11:41 really, but yeah, yeah. So much to get into there.

11:44 And do you know what I found this week that I hadn't spoken

11:46 to you about yet was that Emily from OC has her own true crime

11:51 podcast with her husband open Shane.

11:53 What? Need to check it out.

11:54 I haven't listened yet. It's only about had about 20 odd

11:57 episodes released. I've only start.

11:59 They've only started this year. They're only sort of more

12:01 consistently releasing from what I can see, recent stuff.

12:03 So it looks like over the course of the year they've been

12:07 dabbling, I think. But yeah, I'll I've got to look

12:09 into it more. But yeah, that was it's called

12:12 legally. Brunette.

12:14 Legally brunette. I wonder if they're going to get

12:18 copyrighted. I'll have to give that a go.

12:23 I'll give that a go. It's because they're both

12:24 lawyers, so that they come at like the true crime aspect from

12:28 a legal point of view. So very interesting.

12:30 Yeah, very good. Yeah.

12:32 So combining our two loves. Love it, love it.

12:36 Are we ready to get into today's episode?

12:39 Now this is huge. I want to first and foremost say

12:43 I must. I think I'm going to because

12:44 this is all during like lockdowns and COVID stuff that I

12:51 didn't actually know a lot of stuff about this.

12:53 I went down a rabbit hole, which we'll get into when we get

12:55 through this, that I seem to have missed a heap of

12:59 information that came with this that we will get into as well.

13:02 OK, That when I've really looked into this, I'm like, oh wow.

13:06 Before we really get started, I just, I actually want to

13:09 dedicate this episode to my dad. Oh, yeah, he, but he was the

13:13 one. He was like, you've got to do

13:14 this case. I really want to hear your take

13:17 on it. So, Ross, massive shout out to

13:19 you today. We're talking about the

13:21 Wanangatta Valley murders of, well, I guess, well, deaths of

13:28 Russell Hill and Carol Clay and the perpetrator of, well, part

13:34 of the crime. I suppose we can say now.

13:37 Gregory Lynn. So before we even get started, I

13:40 know I just said that about my dad, but Peter, I've been

13:45 listening to the missing Campers trial.

13:47 Oh yes, a lot. I listened to it when it was

13:49 coming out and then like it was sort of similar to the mushroom

13:54 trial, like the mushroom lady trial where they had episodes

13:58 every day while that was going through the court.

14:01 And it was really interesting. I found it incredibly

14:03 fascinating. Yeah, they gave a lot of

14:05 information, a lot of detail. And it was great.

14:09 But Peter takes particular offence to the fact that they

14:14 call Greg Lynn like disgraced Jet star pilot Gregory Lynn, you

14:21 know, because at the end of the day, well, Peter's like, why do

14:24 they even say that? Like it's media sensationalism,

14:28 but I'm like, it's because if you're a commercial airline

14:31 pilot, and he did, he worked for Anset and Jetstar Guitar

14:34 Airlines as well. Guitar.

14:36 Yep. You want to trust the person at

14:40 the helm of that aeroplane? Absolutely.

14:42 And if they are then capable of the things that he has now been

14:46 convicted of being capable of. Mm Hmm.

14:50 That's. Really disconcerting, even just

14:52 the things he's admitted to lately.

14:54 Yep, Yep. Oh yeah.

14:56 That's disconcerting. So.

14:58 He wasn't just a pilot like as in he was a a training captain.

15:02 So that means that he trained other captains into those roles.

15:06 So he was the next level up to yeah, he was big deal.

15:11 Yeah. Interesting character though in

15:12 that many people didn't want to fly with him.

15:15 I looked into a lot of the psychology behind his

15:18 personality, which we will definitely get to in this

15:21 episode. He's beyond interesting.

15:24 Oh yeah, and there's. Lots more to him than meets the

15:28 eye. Absolutely.

15:29 Yeah. All right, let's get into it.

15:31 So like on the morning of the 16th of March, I think

15:34 contextually, sorry, before we even get started.

15:37 Contextually, yeah, we are talking literally the day or the

15:43 days. Try to.

15:44 And then the day Melbourne went into its first lockdown, where

15:48 were you At Home already locked down because we had young

15:53 children. Pretty much because, yeah.

15:55 Because like, so we had kinder kids, kinder age kind of

15:58 children. So, yeah, I was already I was at

16:01 home very much so like anyway, but I mean, I know with work

16:05 context as well, because it was there was this news coming that

16:08 it was like this thing like, you know, and how is this going to

16:11 impact us that it was kind of the looming for probably a few

16:14 weeks prior of us all. And I remember sitting at a

16:17 meeting actually at council at like where we at school, not our

16:23 school council, no, this at our local area council.

16:26 Yep, I was on a board there for, for, for something.

16:29 And there was a guy on the board there who was not very

16:32 knowledgeable in this area who stated, oh, it's not going to

16:36 affect us. And I remember sitting there

16:40 going, oh gosh, that's just so opposite to what I'm hearing.

16:43 Everywhere. Everywhere else.

16:45 But I'm like, well, you know what you're talking about.

16:47 Yeah, I hope you're right. Like 100%.

16:50 And he was like, yeah, I've been travelling all over the world

16:53 and I'm hearing it from different.

16:54 He'd come back from China, you know, like not long, long prior.

16:58 China, we're gonna say this. Yeah, he, but he'd been

17:01 travelling and things and like, Nah, this isn't gonna affect us,

17:03 This is, we're fine. And I was like, OK, OK, cool,

17:07 good, good. And then bang.

17:09 Yeah, I still, I actually still remember exactly where I was

17:12 when I heard the announcement. So my eldest was in prep at the

17:17 time and I was walking into the school gates and I kind of

17:22 walked into the gate with a mom I knew.

17:25 And she's like, oh, did you hear?

17:27 They're making an announcement at 3:30, which is.

17:29 Exactly like 3:30 every freaking day.

17:31 Which is. The exact time that the kids get

17:34 out of school, I'm like, right, I'm going to pick him up.

17:36 I'm going to get back into the car and I'm going to listen to

17:38 it. Yeah, and then finding out we

17:41 were going into lockdown the next day it.

17:43 Was like get all your shit and get home.

17:45 Everyone was like Oh my God. And you know, my eldest hadn't

17:51 even completed one term of prep. Yet.

17:54 It was so mental. It was absolutely mental.

17:57 Yeah. Yeah.

17:58 So there's people who are heading out who going off

18:00 camping at this point were really doing it kind of going.

18:03 But if we get another opportunity to like kind of

18:05 thing they were they there were lots of people out at that point

18:08 because it was going to close down and they were and I think

18:11 getting in a last trip. And yeah, the threat of it,

18:14 yeah, brought everyone out. They're like, well, we might as

18:16 well do it now because we don't know when we're going to be able

18:18 to do it again. Yeah.

18:19 And also, given it was March, the weather.

18:21 Weather was going to turn anyway.

18:23 So like as in, you know, you get that last bit of the weather and

18:25 let's really push it because we'll make sure we do it because

18:28 we don't know what's going to happen around the corner so.

18:30 Yeah, and it was close enough to school holidays.

18:31 They were probably families doing that anyway.

18:34 Yeah. So yeah, it was a it was an

18:36 interesting time. Oh yeah, get that twitch.

18:44 I just don't know that I ever, I actually even want to think

18:47 about it. Yeah, in that context.

18:48 But it gives you a bit of an idea of of where everyone was at

18:52 in relation to this story and how it all unfolded.

18:55 Did mean that I think when this occurred though, everyone was a

18:58 bit gripped to it because it was either this or Tiger King, you

19:01 know, like. Oh, Tiger King, Oh my God.

19:04 Go back and listen to that episode, yeah.

19:07 You say your skin killed her husband?

19:10 Wow. Damn.

19:14 Yeah. So it wasn't a hell of a lot

19:16 keeping us interested that, you know, you really got into this.

19:18 And so there was a lots of theories, but I think being, you

19:22 know, flown around, which I definitely got into once, but

19:26 we'll get to it. I can't wait.

19:28 I actually can't wait to hear it.

19:30 So basically on the 16th of March in 2020, Gregory Lynn

19:35 decided to go camping. And it was for the exact reasons

19:38 that we were just talking about now.

19:40 He sort of anticipated the fact that the world was going to shut

19:44 down. He was an airline pilot.

19:45 I believe he'd been stood down at that point.

19:48 Yeah. So he had been stood down, but

19:49 purely just because they were like there were less flights,

19:53 there were was less. Happening they needed people to

19:55 do. That So he had put his hand.

19:57 He had voluntarily done it. He hadn't been told to by the

20:00 airline. That's not what happened.

20:02 Yeah. He voluntarily stood himself

20:04 down and took the leave. So he was just on leave.

20:08 But yeah, his wife also worked for Jetstar in the cabin crew.

20:12 Yeah. So she was still working though

20:14 at the time. Time.

20:15 So she was still in employment there and working shifts and

20:19 things and flying. Out, yes, he's packed up, he's

20:21 gone for a bit of a camp in the high country in Victoria and

20:25 there's a particular campsite that's really popular amongst,

20:29 I'm going to say amongst really seasoned campus because when you

20:33 enter into the Wanangatta Valley, there is nothing.

20:37 You don't have any cell like reception, no mobile phone

20:41 coverage. You are literally camping in the

20:44 middle of nowhere. Mm hmm.

20:46 Dense, dense bushland. And there is no.

20:52 I mean, you have to like being on your own, don't you?

20:55 Oh, yeah, yeah. You're not going to come across

20:57 other people out here. You know, if you if you bump

21:00 into someone, that's pretty unheard of.

21:02 There's certain camping spots that are well known and people

21:05 usually might like might it's possible you rock up there and

21:07 find one other person camping in the same spot, particularly in

21:10 certain spots where there was like access to the the river,

21:13 the Creek and things like that for water and those sorts of

21:16 things. But chances of, you know, on the

21:18 roads and things as you're going here and you don't see people

21:21 like and people, people do massive big hikes through there.

21:25 It is dense. Like, there was one particular

21:27 couple I was listening to talking about the fact that they

21:30 got lost out there and were rescued, obviously because

21:34 they're telling their story. But, and that's not unheard of.

21:37 I mean, to be honest, 4 to 5 roughly on average per year

21:40 people go missing in this area. Most of them found.

21:45 Yeah. So this couple particularly what

21:47 she was talking about was when they were trying to find a way

21:49 out, they were walking through spots where he, her husband

21:54 would get sort of 2 meters ahead of her and she would say stop,

21:58 stop. You've got to stop.

21:59 I can't see you like that dense she was she was unable to find

22:04 him when he was like 2 meters away from her.

22:06 That's crazy. It's insane.

22:08 But it gives you a bit of an idea of how dense and how Oh my

22:12 God it just such challenging terrain.

22:14 Well, I mean, this is we're talking about this area like the

22:16 high country Victoria, this is not man from Snowy River.

22:19 Yeah, you know, countryside. And there's a quote in that

22:22 movie of saying that beautiful one day in trying to kill you

22:25 the next. Yeah.

22:26 So that's exactly what this place is.

22:27 It's it's absolutely stunning. I mean, I've done fair few trips

22:30 out there myself for driving and what have you over there in the

22:33 past and stunning, stunning views.

22:36 But yeah, it's dangerous, as if you don't know what you're doing

22:39 out there. Yeah, you're screwed.

22:40 And that's just that's the whole thing.

22:42 I think Gregory Lynn was quite a decent Bushman.

22:45 This is something that he he enjoyed doing as a pastime.

22:50 He was, he had like a whole array of guns and he was a

22:54 hunter. Yeah.

22:56 He did a lot of hiking and all of that sort of stuff.

22:58 These were things that he did as a as a hobby.

23:02 And so yeah, I guess with the imminent lockdowns looming, he

23:07 decided to get away for a little while and he ended up at what is

23:11 known as Buck's Camp and he set up camp there on the night of

23:14 the 16th of March. On the morning of the 19th of

23:19 March in 2020, Russell Hill said goodbye to his wife and packed

23:26 his 4 wheel drive and drove to Carol Clay's home.

23:31 So she lived in the outskirts of Melbourne in a She lived in

23:35 pack. Pack and I believe yeah.

23:37 Yeah, in Victoria and they headed, he picked her up on his

23:41 way and headed off for the valley.

23:42 So I think it's probably worth noting now that Russell Hill and

23:46 Carol Clay had a very long standing affair.

23:50 They were childhood sweethearts, and neither of them actually.

23:56 This is according to friends who knew them and who knew them as a

23:59 as a couple, as an illegitimate couple.

24:03 Neither of them could really recall why they broke up when

24:05 they were teenagers, but for whatever reason, life separated

24:10 them. They both married different

24:12 people, had children, had children, had families, had

24:15 lives, but at some point, and I believe they've sort of been

24:19 having this affair for something like 20.

24:21 Well, yeah, so early 2000s they found each other again, however

24:26 that came about. Yeah, bumped into each other

24:28 what? Same area.

24:29 So it makes sense that they might have bumped into one

24:31 another. Randomly saw each other and

24:34 yeah, kicked off their affair. At that point Russell was

24:37 introducing her to people as his cousin.

24:39 Yep, at places so and that kind of gave him, gave him an

24:45 opportunity to be able to spend time with her publicly, I guess

24:48 without it being looked at as unusual.

24:50 His wife Robin was, he was telling her this was his first,

24:54 first cousin and that that's why he was catching up with her.

24:57 At some point though, it was it did come out that it she wasn't

25:02 his first cousin. And Russell did admit to Robin

25:05 that that it wasn't a cousin and that he was having an affair.

25:11 He told Robin that it was over, it was not happening anymore and

25:17 that that was that. It was not.

25:20 That they continue, right? On with their affairs.

25:22 So at this point, when Russell goes out, picks her up, heads

25:26 off into the the high country together, Robin is under the

25:29 impression that that affair is long done and dusted and

25:32 nonexistent. Well, she doesn't know that he's

25:34 picking her. Up No, absolutely no knowledge.

25:37 No 0 knowledge of her, Of her being part of his life still,

25:41 yeah. So Carol Clay's husband had

25:43 actually passed away during the course.

25:46 They did divorce too. So she because from what I can

25:49 gather, there was sort of a bit of a pact of like, well, they

25:51 were going to leave their perspective others.

25:55 And so with that she did, but Russell did not.

25:59 So yeah, then unfortunately he did pass away in that soon after

26:03 that as well. Yeah, yeah.

26:06 How would you feel if you were Carol Clay and that happened?

26:09 Oh, I don't know, Didn't. Happen, you know, like, I just

26:12 feel like this is such a common story, you know, like, yeah,

26:16 yeah, yeah, I'll leave my wife. Yeah, no worries.

26:18 No worries. And then it just doesn't happen.

26:19 And I I really feel for Carol in that instance because, yeah, she

26:24 was obviously holding out hope that that would happen.

26:26 She'd upheld her end of the bargain.

26:30 And these two, I mean, clearly she liked going out with him and

26:33 doing those trips, and this was something that she was happy to

26:36 do, whereas Robin wasn't interested in doing that stuff

26:38 with. Yeah.

26:39 With Russell, I kind of get to this point of going like, at

26:42 that point in your life, I mean, they're both, what, 7473 years

26:45 of age. So at that age, I'm kind of a

26:48 little bit more of like you do you like you've got your life

26:51 and your kids and your wife that you do love?

26:53 I think he genuinely loved Robin and he loved the life he had

26:56 with her. Agree with that.

26:57 And then but there's this other woman who has had this childhood

26:59 long loving for all his life. They've got this interest

27:02 together that they're happy to go and do.

27:05 Although I did, I did read somewhere that Carol wasn't that

27:09 into camping and bushmanship like Russell was.

27:13 But because she loved spending time with him and that was kind

27:16 of the only way that they could do it, she was happy to go along

27:20 with it. Yeah.

27:21 Yeah. So I don't know that it was a

27:23 shared interest, but for her it was motivated by the fact that

27:27 she got to spend time with Russell.

27:28 Yeah, yeah. Interesting.

27:31 Yeah, isn't it? I don't know.

27:32 So anyway, they've headed off down to the one in Get A Valley,

27:35 and this is an area that Russell knew very, very well.

27:39 He'd worked as a logger in the area in the past, and he'd also

27:43 worked as a Rd. grader. So he'd actually made roads and

27:46 paths and all of that stuff into the valley.

27:49 Particular ones that he was travelling on this and in this

27:52 area, yeah. Yeah, he's done very well.

27:54 Yeah. That's it.

27:55 So it was. It was he was described as

28:01 having a second to none knowledge of the area.

28:04 They decided to head to Bucks Camp as well and they've set up

28:09 their tent, They've driven in, set up their tent and they knew

28:15 there was somebody else there was very obvious there's

28:17 somebody else well. Because the other person that

28:18 was there being obviously Greg, Greg Rylin, he had taken the

28:23 spot that you wanted. Basically it had the, the

28:25 immediate access to the, the, the Creek there and everything.

28:29 So which they sort of, I, I dare say when they're rocked up,

28:31 they're kind of like, oh God damn it.

28:33 That's what. We wanted, Oh well.

28:35 So they've gone over a bit further from him, but not not

28:37 terribly far away from each other though, so.

28:39 I think they were still within within 50 metres.

28:42 Yeah, yeah, that's exactly right.

28:44 Yeah, a couple of days later, a man by the name of Andrew,

28:49 Andrew Markhart was in the one in Ghetto Valley with his

28:55 family. And he, he knew Bucks Camp, he'd

28:58 been there before. And so he was with his family.

29:02 They decided to go for a look in and see what was going on around

29:05 the around the way. And what he saw was a white Land

29:09 Cruiser, single cab Ute which looked like it was burnt out.

29:13 And he thought, oh, that's really strange.

29:15 Like not something you'd obviously ever seen there

29:18 before. There was no one around.

29:20 And he just thought it was really odd.

29:23 Anyway, he kind of moved on and they went and camped not far

29:28 down the, I don't know, down the track somewhere at a different

29:31 campsite that night. But it kind of got the better of

29:34 him. And the next morning he went

29:35 back there and he. He found an esky which had been

29:41 which was underneath the car and pulled that out and when he

29:45 opened it, he realized there was fresh food in it.

29:48 So I guess that kind of linked for him going this is this

29:51 campsite is new. This has not been here for a

29:53 long time. Sorry, you know, and someone is

29:56 around like and it didn't just didn't add up for him what he

29:59 was seeing in the campsite at. All He looked through the

30:02 windows of the Land Cruiser as well, and he saw a wallet that

30:05 was open. He saw a handbag on the floor

30:08 and he's like, oh, this is really weird.

30:11 Like something's not quite right here.

30:14 He also saw like burnt tent poles and lots of charring on

30:18 the metal of the car. All very, very strange.

30:25 So Oh yeah. And then also I think he saw

30:27 like a burnt out gas cylinder as well, like a gas, a camping gas

30:31 bottle. Inside the tent.

30:33 Yeah, which? You don't cook inside a tent.

30:35 Anyone who camps knows that. You don't ever do that.

30:38 You. Don't put a gas bottle inside an

30:40 enclosed space. No.

30:41 So that was very unusual. Yeah.

30:43 But he, he basically was like, because there's no cell, you

30:46 know, no mobile access out there whatsoever.

30:49 Not a hell of a lot he can do at that point.

30:50 He didn't have radio access so he had to wait until he got out

30:55 of the area before he could contact anyone.

30:57 He did take some photos, yes, at the time on his mobile phone,

31:00 which was great, great. But he didn't leave the area

31:03 from to the point where he was at mobile phone coverage for

31:06 like a week. It was, yeah, It was extended

31:08 period of time. Yeah, it was a while.

31:10 He didn't sort of go, oh, we need to leave today to report

31:13 this. Like it was odd and they'll need

31:16 to pass this information on to someone when we go.

31:19 Yeah, yeah, basically, yeah. Because there was nothing else,

31:22 I guess that went, oh, that's, you know, there's something

31:25 somebody's in immediate danger. Yeah.

31:27 He was sort of, I think he made an assumption that there was

31:30 potentially a second vehicle who that had exited the people that

31:33 from the camp. Yeah.

31:34 That had like they'd. Been they'd been an incident in

31:36 a. Fire or something and they had

31:38 to leave. Another vehicle has taken them

31:39 out because they we'd like to go like 24 hours where no one's

31:43 come back to this site. But it's clearly really recent

31:45 that this has occurred. Like yeah, they're obviously

31:48 safe because they're not here. So yeah, he kind of moved on

31:52 from it going I don't know what the the go is here, but I will

31:55 I'll report it. But yeah, not know what what

31:57 that would do, Yeah. Yeah, so in the meantime the

32:03 police had been contacted regarding a couple of missing

32:08 people who were Russell and Carol.

32:12 Now the reason the first people to really raise the alarm were

32:17 Russell was a a very astute ham radio enthusiast.

32:24 If I was even more than an enthusiast, he was fully

32:26 licensed and certified in using them, which is.

32:30 I'm going to call it an enthusiast because what, what

32:32 else are you? What are you using it for?

32:36 He loved this thing. He loved it.

32:38 He. Was so into.

32:39 It and he had a group of cronies who would get on every night at

32:42 6:00 PM and have a chat. And if one of them was out

32:46 camping because they were all sort of bushy type of people,

32:49 they would check in, make sure they were okay.

32:50 Because if you don't have mobile phone coverage, you can still

32:52 get a signal on your ham radio. Absolutely.

32:55 And So what actually called the 1st contact with police was from

33:02 one of these people in this group, in this ham radio group

33:05 who realized that Russell actually hadn't been on for

33:08 three days. Yeah, so he contacted was his

33:11 name was Robin Ashland and he contacted Robin Hill, Russell's

33:15 wife and said have you heard from him?

33:17 Because he's not been on the the radio.

33:20 Now this Robin Ashland, he knew about Carol Clay, too.

33:24 They had been on a camping trip together.

33:26 So he was aware that there was things he probably couldn't say

33:29 too, so he did. But he did contact Robin and

33:31 said to her, have you heard from him?

33:33 And when she said no and then assuming that he would have on

33:37 the ham radio because what she she would actually TuneIn, she

33:39 didn't have the license to communicate over the ham radio,

33:42 but she could TuneIn each night and listen to him.

33:44 So on the first night when he got to this campsite, it Bucks

33:48 hit bucks campsite, she had listened.

33:50 Actually, usually we didn't listen to the whole

33:52 conversation. She would just listen and go,

33:53 oh, there he is, he's fine. Turn it off.

33:55 He's not interested in you, in your shit, on that, whatever

33:58 boys like. No one cares.

34:01 But, yeah, she would listen to make sure he was safe.

34:03 But she had noted, too, that he wasn't on the radio.

34:07 And so when Robin Ashland contacted her and said he's not

34:10 been on, she was, oh, this isn't right.

34:13 And he said, I think you probably should write, like,

34:15 contact the police because he's not been on the radio.

34:18 Maybe he's, you know, stuck somewhere.

34:19 I thought he contacted the. No, no, Robin did.

34:21 Yeah. Well, they're both named Robin,

34:22 so maybe that's really. Confused.

34:24 Yeah, maybe that's where I got confused.

34:25 Yeah, Robin and Robin, Yeah. Yeah.

34:28 So yeah, Robin Hill did raise the alarm on that end.

34:31 Unbeknownst to her, they had also family members of Carol had

34:36 raised the flag as well that she was missing.

34:39 The two had yet to be, you know, like linked together at that

34:42 point because it did take them a bit of time to get out to this

34:46 campsite where they were two to be able to pinpoint.

34:48 Where it was I think from the first point.

34:50 Yeah. Of like of raising the alarm and

34:54 and issuing the missing persons sort of report yes, because they

34:59 didn't know where they were exactly.

35:01 And so the police were searching the Wanangatta Valley.

35:04 But you've got to think contextually as well.

35:07 This is exactly the exact same time that Melbourne was going

35:11 into lockdown. So the police were involved as

35:13 well massively. The police were involved in

35:16 roadblocks and, you know, a lot of different public safety

35:21 measures. Yes, all of that.

35:24 All of that was going on at the same time.

35:26 So but when the police do get out to the campsite, what they

35:29 find is a wallet of Russell's as well, but also of Carol Clay.

35:36 So they were out there looking for Russell because they didn't

35:39 with Carol Clay, they didn't really know even where to start

35:41 looking at all. Like they actually didn't know

35:42 where she was at all. Whereas getting out there and

35:45 they were actually searching for Russell, finding his campsite,

35:48 his car, his wallet, all those sorts of things, but also

35:51 finding a wallet with Carol Clay's things, the call the

35:55 police. Then awkward had to ring Robin

35:58 and say, do you know a woman by the name of Carol Clay?

36:01 And which why would she be out here with him?

36:06 So that was a bit of a eye opening moment for her.

36:09 So obviously she's not only dealing with the fact that,

36:12 yeah, your husband's missing. We found the campsite and it's

36:15 burnt out and also his ex lover is here.

36:20 Ex lover. They were never ex lovers but

36:22 according to her. According to her, they were so,

36:25 and at this point too, her three daughters with Russell had no

36:29 idea who who Carol Clay was and what connection she was to to

36:33 their dad. So she had to explain to her

36:35 daughter, their daughters, what's going on with Dad.

36:39 Dad's been having this affair for many, many, many, many many

36:42 years at this point. Now public.

36:46 And I, I heard an interview with Carol Clay's daughter with

36:50 regard to this. And she said at this time the

36:52 police asked her to sign a media release to issue some

36:58 information or basically do a public appeal for information,

37:01 anything that might lead to the whereabouts of her mom and of

37:06 Russell Hill. And she said at the time she

37:08 said I would I would do anything to find my mom.

37:11 So of course I signed it, but she said I knew in doing so that

37:17 it would expose my mom for something that she really wasn't

37:20 at her core because Carol Clay was an incredibly upstanding

37:26 member of society. She was the president of the

37:31 CWA, the Country Women's Association, and she which had

37:35 taken her all around the world in terms of she was a natural

37:41 born leader. I think you look at photos of

37:43 her, of her and you think, oh, yeah, you are a really lovely

37:46 woman. Yeah.

37:47 So put together, so put to just gorgeous.

37:50 And I feel like, you know, if it weren't for this indiscretion,

37:56 which I'm sure she would have felt horrific about too.

38:00 But then, you know, the heart wants what the heart wants.

38:04 I just think every other aspect of her life would, she would

38:07 have hit the mark every single time.

38:09 She just had that sort of aura about her and so her daughter

38:13 was like I really didn't want to have to tarnish moms name by

38:16 saying yes to this, but I also wouldn't have stopped it

38:18 anything to find her so. But in that she wasn't the one

38:22 having the affair technically at that point that's but she had

38:25 but. She also knew Russell was

38:27 married. So I mean, you still miss it.

38:30 Absolutely said absolutely. So the other thing I guess that

38:34 the police noted when they got to the campsite was not only

38:36 what was there, but what was not there.

38:39 Yeah. And what was not there were

38:41 their phones and a drone. So I think they'd asked Robin

38:47 Hill, you know, what did he take with him and.

38:50 What did he go there to do? What was he?

38:51 Yeah, Why was he there? What was the motivation aside

38:53 from having an affair with Cow? But.

39:00 And his wife said, well, he loved flying drones, surveying

39:03 the area. That was kind of his thing.

39:06 It was part of a part of his hobby.

39:08 And so the drone wasn't there and no Robin knew he'd taken it.

39:13 And then obviously both of them had mobile phones as well,

39:15 neither of which were found at the campsite.

39:17 So that really sparked interest in the police, and I guess that

39:22 sort of led them down the path of looking to see, OK, well,

39:25 let's find out what these mobile phones have actually been doing.

39:28 Yeah, yeah. All this time and what they can

39:31 see is that they travelled into the Wanangatta Valley, I think

39:35 through Myrtle food. Yeah, that sounds about right.

39:38 And at whatever point where everyone loses mobile phone

39:42 reception, they lost reception. And then what they see is 3 days

39:49 later, or two days later, two days later.

39:54 Yeah, two days later. Yeah, the phone, then Russell's

39:57 phone actually then pings at Mount Hotham.

40:01 Yeah. And they're like, oh,

40:04 interesting. I wonder what this is all about.

40:06 So they start, you know, looking down this path and what they

40:11 ended up doing, which I think is an absolutely fuck.

40:14 Well, actually, sorry, before they even get to this point.

40:17 Just very quickly. They did all the normal missing

40:20 person stuff, proof of life checks because I think once they

40:23 found out that Carol and Russell were having an affair they

40:26 thought have they staged their disappearance?

40:27 They had to eliminate the fact of, like, are these two, these

40:29 two run off on their, like, of their own accord.

40:32 Yeah, because people are allowed to do that.

40:34 I mean, they make it. Legal to go missing?

40:35 They don't want to be found. They don't have to be found.

40:38 Yeah, exactly. So they had to determine whether

40:40 or not this was something that they really needed to be putting

40:43 their resources into, particularly at this time when

40:46 they needed resources elsewhere, police as well.

40:48 So that's really needed to narrow this down, like what

40:50 exactly is going on here? But very quickly, from all

40:53 accounts of everyone they spoke to, whether they were having the

40:56 affair or not, like that's just not in their personality that

40:58 they were going to run off and disappear.

41:01 Carol had grandchildren who she was very heavily involved in

41:04 their lives. There's no way she would have

41:06 left them. No way.

41:08 Like, no way at all. Everyone they spoke to just

41:11 adamantly was like, that is not something that that would be on

41:13 the cards. Yeah, that's exactly.

41:15 So they were very, police were very good at quickly realizing

41:17 that, ruling that out. Then the only other options left

41:21 are that there's been that they've got lost somewhere,

41:24 they've gone on a hike, say someones gotten injured.

41:26 That didn't explain the camps. The.

41:28 Camp, it doesn't explain that. So there's always that that goes

41:31 with it. But could they just be lost?

41:33 Could there have been a campfire?

41:34 They've gone to get help and haven't been able to get it.

41:37 Yeah. Whatever has happened, you know,

41:39 like, so no foul play as such, but yeah, something naturally

41:43 occurring or in that sense that they've disappeared and they

41:46 need to find them in that vicinity.

41:48 Yeah. Or is this a matter of, yeah, a

41:51 third party being involved and, or at least one other third, you

41:55 know, party being involved in this and that there's foul play.

41:59 So the third party you're, I think alluding to is the button

42:05 man. I went way down that rabbit.

42:09 Oh, tell me everything. Tell me everything.

42:12 So for those who don't know for a very long time, and I've known

42:17 about this. And oh look, the button man is

42:20 myth. Legend.

42:21 Yeah, whatever you wanna call. Everyone knows everyone in

42:23 Victoria. If you've ever been camping in

42:25 the high country, you know of the button you.

42:27 Know the button man and so it's just.

42:29 And to be honest, up until this point, I was under the

42:32 impression that part of me was he wasn't real, right?

42:36 Oh, I like, I know, I know he's real.

42:38 Oh, I know. Now, at the time I've always

42:41 been told he was real. But there was part of me going,

42:43 do you know what? He's probably not.

42:44 And people are just trying to scare the shit out of me when

42:46 I've gone clearing and stuff, right?

42:47 It's like the drop. So yes, exactly.

42:49 I wasn't fully convinced that this was a real person.

42:52 But obviously with this occurring and being on lockdown,

42:55 I was like, I'm gonna solve this.

42:56 It's fully the Button Man. So yeah, I went into a total

43:02 rabbit hole of the Button man. So the Button man is now there

43:06 are different opinions of Button man.

43:08 There are very much people who say that he is a Mansfield

43:11 local, enjoys his alone time and goes out into the high country.

43:19 He's incredibly skilled out in the in the wilderness, but he's

43:23 harmless. There are other people who have

43:27 different opinions of him and have had different experiences

43:29 of him and they would call him a recluse and a full blown up job.

43:35 Now, the reason he's called the button man is that he has

43:40 antlers from deers that he has, you know, killed and in hunting,

43:45 Yep, that he has made buttons out of, and he wears these

43:48 buttons tick. So.

43:55 But there's all these stories of people coming across him in the

43:58 wilderness. Now, whether he does this out

44:00 of, I don't know, a bit of joy for himself or what, but he is

44:04 so good at being out in the wilderness that you won't know

44:07 he's there and he will appear. So people have been out hunting

44:11 literally, you know, in the quiet, trying to, you know, get

44:14 everyone. No one's making noise, laying

44:16 down ready to shoot a deer and all of a sudden the button man

44:21 will appear, creep me out. Something even worse to that, I

44:27 think there's a particular guy who has experienced the button

44:30 man. Well, we assume in that he was

44:34 out there doing photography and around, it was actually around

44:37 near Bucks Camp as well where this occurred, that he was

44:40 taking incredibly spectacular photos night after night, day

44:44 after day sort of thing. And spending time out there.

44:46 And when he got home and this is back, you know, before, I guess,

44:49 digital photography that he was like, you know, looking at these

44:52 photos that he'd taken. He got back home again and

44:55 started to print his photos, you know, in the lab and develop

44:58 them. Yep.

44:59 And he found a photo of himself sleeping in his tent.

45:03 Oh, isn't that so creepy? Oh.

45:05 That makes my skin crawl. I.

45:07 Know do you imagine finding that on your?

45:08 Camera. Oh, it would.

45:10 I would never go camp. I would never go there on like

45:12 done. Never again.

45:13 Like clearly as he has come into his tent, Yep, never woken him.

45:17 And when you're out camping, you're kind of.

45:19 You're a tube to it. Yeah, you're a don't.

45:22 It's no, no deep. Sleep.

45:23 Oh, you don't get deep sleep on one can.

45:25 No, God, there's always something.

45:26 There's a bug. There's a, you know, dampness on

45:28 your tent. There's something that's going

45:30 to keep you a bit awake overnight.

45:32 No. He took a photo of him inside

45:35 his tent. So he is a very interesting man

45:39 and very creepy. And now the simple fact is that

45:42 in the area and particularly close to this event, there were

45:46 two other people who had gone missing.

45:47 Yeah, Now a number of people believe that the button man is

45:52 actually the cause for other people's deaths.

45:56 Now, there is also people, IE the police, who have interviewed

46:00 the button man. And I'm now aware the police

46:04 have a very good relationship with this person.

46:05 Yeah. No one knows his name.

46:07 Yeah. No, it's not known.

46:08 Not known. No, he's a 70 year old man.

46:11 But it's actually the way he was described to me by someone was

46:13 that he's a 7 year old man who moves like a 35 year old.

46:16 We've heard that too. Blows my mind.

46:19 I mean, although 35, you know, I can hurt too. 35 year old.

46:25 OK. Yeah.

46:27 So he's incredible. Yeah.

46:29 It just unbelievable. So the police, they know exactly

46:32 who he is. They've have pulled him on a

46:34 number of occasions to have conversations with him about

46:36 this. They have.

46:38 They pulled him in at this point.

46:39 They did interview him about Russell Hill and Carol Clay and

46:43 cleared him. Yeah.

46:45 Now that didn't really maybe come out in the public enough

46:47 because. No.

46:49 I was way down that. Oh, right.

46:52 You're like not he's done it. Convict him.

46:54 Lock him away. I was.

46:55 Definitely. Oh, it's definitely button man.

46:57 It's definitely, yeah 'cause oh, it just blows my mind.

47:01 And he, so he just lives out there basically.

47:03 He, he will wander into town, like into Mansfield or and get

47:07 supplies every now and then, but he just lives off the land.

47:10 Land, yeah, out in the high country.

47:13 And I think he's quite transient.

47:14 It's not like he's got a, you know, a solid base or he's.

47:17 Got a particularly he does actually he has got a camp where

47:19 he basically calls home. And is that?

47:22 Does that move around though? No, not really.

47:24 He's got a particular spot. You won't be able to find it.

47:26 Yeah, but he has a particular spot and it's it's elevated.

47:29 So he, where he has, he can fully see like the entire valley

47:33 almost. And from where he is.

47:34 OK, And that's where he will be like, oh, I can see there's this

47:37 campfire, you know, 3 kilometers away that way and another 110

47:40 kilometers, kilometers. Oh God, how many lines of I have

47:44 it? Is you've got a lot too what's

47:45 going on? I mean bumper paws.

47:47 So it's. Whatever else, yeah, 10

47:52 kilometers away. You know, that's why he will

47:54 then just appear on these people out of nowhere.

47:56 He's he's, oh, on top of all of it that goes.

47:59 On that is so creepy yeah, yeah, the police did other proof of

48:04 life checks as well to see that Russell and Carol hadn't

48:07 potentially run off together. But they hadn't used their bank

48:10 accounts. They hadn't used like it's not

48:12 like they used their Medicare cards.

48:14 There's nothing to suggest that they had run away and were

48:18 anywhere to be found, or anywhere in terms of having

48:25 potentially staged their own disappearances anyway.

48:28 No. So they checked.

48:30 There are a number of points where you enter the area where

48:33 there are cameras. So from these cameras, they

48:36 could see who had exited the the national parking area over those

48:41 days. Yeah.

48:42 And there were actually 12 vehicles that they had they

48:45 could get on these cameras. So are you talking now about the

48:48 Mount Hotham cameras? Multiple cameras from all sorts

48:51 of exit points, OK, over the course of the day that they that

48:55 they expected them to have left the the area, yeah number of

48:58 those 12 vehicles that they had. So they were, they went and

49:01 followed up all of those, every single one of them, because they

49:05 obviously had camera of the number of plates.

49:09 Now, a lot of these people voluntarily knowing what had

49:12 happened in the area, voluntarily went to the police

49:15 and said, you know, we were in the area, we didn't see

49:17 anything, you know, to let them know others the police did have

49:20 to go and find and they'd be Oh yeah, yeah, I was out that way,

49:23 didn't know anything about it. Lockdowns, you know, and they

49:26 cleared all of them bar 1, bar 1.

49:31 So there was a particular one that they they did, they go out

49:34 and speak to him, being that of Gregory Lynn.

49:38 They did go and speak to him. And from the reaction they got

49:43 from him, they were like, thank you, Sir.

49:46 We've got all the information we need.

49:47 Yes. Exit.

49:49 However, there was some interesting things that they had

49:53 from that. And they did leave that with

49:54 him, believing that he, they had cleared him by speaking to him.

49:58 Yep. But they fully had not.

50:01 Yeah. So what they were able to put

50:03 together after sort of seeing these 12 vehicles, and they were

50:08 then like, all right, well, let's see what phones were

50:13 pinging off the towers that were closest to those points where we

50:16 have photos for these vehicles. And so they were able to then

50:21 get a match for Gregory Lin's vehicle, which was a Land

50:27 Cruiser that was a dark blue, I believe.

50:32 And Russell Hill's phone pinged off the cell tower there at the

50:37 same time that they could see Greg Lynn's car going through

50:43 that gantry. So interesting.

50:47 And this, you know, I guess coupled with this interview,

50:52 this home sort of thing that they did when they went to

50:56 Gregory Lynn's house, they were like, oh, this is all very

50:59 curious. What one of the sergeants

51:01 noticed was that there was a Nissan Patrol parked in a side

51:07 street, new Gregory Lynn's house that matched the description of

51:09 what they'd seen in that photo. Same number plate, but it was a

51:14 different color. It was now beige, tan, beige

51:17 color, tanny beige color. Interestingly, when he bought

51:20 that car in 1990s, it was white. Yes, and then it was dark blue

51:27 and now it's beige or tan. Tan.

51:29 Yeah, More tan. Mm.

51:30 Hmm. We can go back to that if you

51:33 like later. Yeah, we absolutely will.

51:35 We absolutely will. So the police have been trying

51:37 to find out. OK, now what?

51:39 How do we go about drawing him out?

51:43 They had actually put some surveillance in his house and

51:45 covert surveillance. So they had listening devices in

51:48 his house and in his car. Yeah.

51:50 And what they knew was that every Sunday night, Greg and his

51:57 wife, Melanie, Melanie would watch 60 Minutes.

52:00 They knew it. It was every week they would

52:03 watch it. Yeah.

52:04 And So what they decided to do was use the program to try and

52:10 plant some. Try and get.

52:12 Information and guess about to talk about it yeah yeah yeah and

52:16 what they did was they kind of told the story up until this

52:19 point where they're like we've got this dark blueness and

52:21 patrol here's an image of the car but we don't know who it

52:25 belongs to and they really kind. Of really ham it up a little bit

52:29 in terms of the we know we've got it, got this guy.

52:32 If we just find out who it is that owns this vehicle, yeah,

52:36 You know, it's really like the cops are like, terrible act.

52:38 Yeah, and they're like, and we're looking for a dark blue

52:41 car. No wink wink nudge nudge.

52:43 Yeah, and in the listening device, Yeah, the police go back

52:47 while the while the 60 Minutes episode's playing and Greg's

52:51 wife Melanie says to him. She laughs about it.

52:55 That sounds like your car. That looks.

52:56 Like your car? Exactly like your car.

52:58 Like that's and he like he snaps.

53:00 Like, yeah. Oh, that's it's.

53:03 That's not even funny. Yeah, he actually responds with

53:05 Yeah, that's not even funny. Yeah, nothing like mine.

53:08 Shuts her down. Yeah.

53:11 In this time as well so he's then seen this photo this image

53:15 on 60 minutes and he still had this point had a canopy like a

53:18 side canopy on his on the 4 wheel drive even though he'd

53:21 painted it he hadn't taken the canopy off he took that off

53:24 immediately immediately that's. They've got video footage of him

53:27 removing that off the side of it.

53:29 Yeah, yeah. It's interesting to note too,

53:31 that obviously they had this listening device in the house

53:34 and now this isn't illegal. But what was noted as what was

53:39 being recorded because they have like 5000 different recordings

53:42 of what of it seems they're a huge amount.

53:46 But what was noted by the police officer who we had to listen to

53:48 it all, it was and you see through his notes repeated

53:52 numerous times, narcissistic, racist, misogynistic, like this

53:57 theme of the type of personality he was in his own home was very

54:02 interesting. Towards his own.

54:04 Wife. Yeah.

54:05 Yeah. Gross.

54:08 Absolutely disgusting, absolutely disgusting, but it

54:11 really shows the type of person that he that he is.

54:14 Definitely. So putting all this together,

54:16 not too long after the night, the 60 minutes episode, they are

54:21 able to go in and arrest him. Well they bring him in and he

54:25 spends 4 days talking to police in interviews.

54:31 Well I shouldn't say talking to police, I believe it was the

54:33 first two days of it. Basically his lawyer.

54:36 Weirdly enough he'd contacted a lawyer and spoke to him over the

54:38 phone, but the lawyer didn't come in, which is probably

54:40 COVID. I I.

54:41 Maybe that actually that's. Fair.

54:43 Now when I think about it, it's weird.

54:44 Yeah, his, but his lawyer had said to him, don't answer any of

54:47 their questions, right. So because in the trial this

54:50 does come up a little bit that the judge does say that the

54:54 police shouldn't have maybe pushed so hard that because he

54:57 was following his instructions from his lawyer and then he

54:59 broke that and did speak eventually.

55:02 Because he actually, he actually even says in the recording, it's

55:05 like against the advice of my lawyer, I'm going to say I'm

55:07 going to tell you exactly what happened.

55:09 Yeah, one of the quotes from his his interview, then I find this.

55:15 I can't handle this. So his comment was, look, the

55:19 assumption is that I'm the villain.

55:20 In fact, Oh, I think I'm the victim of all this, you fucking

55:26 sack of shit. He goes, it was wrong of me to

55:29 hide those bodies like that. I should have just gone straight

55:32 to police. I didn't want to do it.

55:34 It was horrific. It was a it was a horrific thing

55:36 I had to do. I was sick the first couple of

55:39 times. I just wanted to go, wanted it

55:41 to go away and just to move on and never think about it again.

55:45 Because you can do that when you're that way inclined.

55:51 Yeah, gross. Yeah.

55:54 So he ended up in his interviews admitting that he he knew he was

56:00 part of it and he was there, but that it was not his fault.

56:05 Yeah, he's. Do you want me to go through his

56:08 account? Of what?

56:08 Yeah, I think done that night. Yeah, yeah.

56:11 So he said he was there to hunt deer.

56:14 He was at Bucks camp to hunt deer in the Bush, and Russell

56:19 Hill and Carol Clay had set up their camp, which he wasn't all

56:22 that happy about. He wanted to be there on his own

56:24 as well, so that kind of pissed him.

56:25 Off. That's what I mean.

56:26 Everyone wants to be on their own and then you don't get it

56:28 so. But tough shit.

56:29 It's a free camp. Like, just keep to yourself.

56:31 It's fine. Yeah, Apparently they'd had a

56:34 conversation the first night and it was all sort of like, hey,

56:37 how's it going? Everything was fairly amicable.

56:41 What he then says is that later in the evening of the.

56:44 I think this was of the second day Russell had his drone out

56:50 and it was buzzing over Gregory Lynn's head.

56:53 Now, I think it's worth noting here too, we only know one

56:57 person's account of this, so we're only going at this from

57:00 Gregory Lynn's perspective because Carol and Russell can't

57:04 tell their story. Yeah.

57:08 OK, so Greg was really agitated by the fact that Russell was

57:12 flying this drone overhead. And he said, you know, you're

57:14 not allowed to do that. It's within whatever meanings of

57:17 a person. And he also admitted he goes.

57:19 I didn't want him catching like, footage of me because I had

57:22 weapons and they weren't necessarily stored in a correct

57:27 manner. Yeah, so they were all.

57:29 Loaded or something. Being a pilot, if he had a

57:32 conviction of at all in terms of like not storing weapons

57:36 correctly as they are supposed to be by law, he would lose his

57:39 pilot's licence. Well then fucking store them by

57:42 law, you dipshit. So sorry, he he basically was

57:45 inferring that what Russell was doing was purposely trying to

57:50 get photos of him doing the wrong thing because he the other

57:53 thing was that, or maybe it was around the fact he was hunting

57:56 too close to the campsite too. Yeah.

57:58 So. But the inference from from Greg

58:01 was that he was in fear that he was getting captured on camera

58:06 by this drone doing something he probably shouldn't have been.

58:10 And so he wasn't happy about it. Was asking him to not do that

58:12 and to not have the drone near him.

58:14 Yeah. Yeah.

58:15 So he kind of retreated back. They had a bit of an argument

58:20 about the drone, Greg says. He kind of retreated, had his

58:24 dinner back at his little campsite, but was really

58:28 brooding over this argument. Like, really?

58:29 And crazy, his radio, his stereo up on his car to piss them off,

58:33 to piss them off. And because, I mean, when you're

58:34 out camping like that, it's pitch black.

58:36 Like by very early, yes. So at nine, 10:00 at night, oh,

58:40 he's in his campsite 50 meters away, absolutely pounding out

58:45 the music as loud as you possibly can.

58:47 Russell and Carol are trying to have snuggle time, you know?

58:52 And you know, I mean, they're elderly, they're camping.

58:55 You'd be in bed by freaking 8:30, I reckon.

58:57 Like, you know, So we're by 910 o'clock him pumping out that

59:00 music. They were not happy with that.

59:02 I can, absolutely. Steven Steven admits that he

59:06 chose the most annoying music he could find.

59:10 Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

59:12 No boom chick. Wow, wow, there.

59:15 They did. That attack happened in Barry

59:17 way. So I guess what happened after

59:25 this is really what's in contention.

59:27 Yeah. And that is the subject of the

59:32 trial, because what Gregory Lynn says happened is that there was

59:39 a dispute and it escalated. And he says that there was a

59:47 scuffle, so he had a gun. He.

59:50 Claims that Russell went to his vehicle yeah.

59:53 And took out his shotgun, yeah. To which he then approached

59:58 Russell to like, try and get this gun off of him.

1:00:00 Like that's mine now we should say here.

1:00:04 Russell had a real dislike of guns.

1:00:06 Yes, he had. I believe it was a cousin was

1:00:09 killed in a hunty accident not that long ago, that he was very

1:00:14 opposed to guns. Yeah.

1:00:15 So his family all say he'd be shocked if he picked up a gun.

1:00:18 He had a gun at home that was given to him by a relative that

1:00:22 he just, he didn't even like it being around because he just

1:00:25 didn't like weapons and what they did.

1:00:27 So for him to go and grab someone else's weapon and load

1:00:31 it, which is what Russell, what Greg accuses him of.

1:00:35 But. Wasn't it?

1:00:37 Well, so he reckons that Russell loaded it and then was, you

1:00:42 know, threatening him with it. So then he went over and

1:00:44 struggled with him, and in that struggle he shot off a round in

1:00:50 that one shot into the into the sky.

1:00:53 Yep, Now this is where. Gregory Ling says it was like a.

1:00:56 Warning shot. A warning shot?

1:00:57 Yeah, he tries. He wrestles with him with the

1:00:59 weapon, and the weapon goes off randomly.

1:01:03 Yeah, and shoots Carol, who's who's like hiding behind the

1:01:09 vehicle, but. She was hiding behind the

1:01:11 vehicle, kind of behind, mostly behind the review the side

1:01:15 mirror. Yeah, so apparently it hit her,

1:01:18 killed her. Through the side mirror.

1:01:20 Then weirdly enough, he then claims that it seems to be.

1:01:25 I couldn't really get this bit where there seems to be then

1:01:28 that that happens and it's, you know, Russell is obviously

1:01:32 beside himself. What's, you know, what's going

1:01:35 on here? And there seems to be a a

1:01:37 stoppage of the the wrestling over the weapon.

1:01:41 And then Russell picks up again. He puts it on Russell that he

1:01:45 picks up a kitchen knife and is then approaching Greg with that,

1:01:52 to which they again have another tussle.

1:01:55 And somehow Russell falls on his own knife and stabs himself in

1:01:59 the chest. Now.

1:02:03 So many issues, so many that but.

1:02:05 Look, anyway, so it's worth, I think we need to say Carol was

1:02:10 shot in the head. Yeah.

1:02:11 And. Well, that's what he claims

1:02:13 because, well. That's true.

1:02:14 We really claims. Yeah.

1:02:16 And there's evidence that can support that.

1:02:19 There's no. But no definitive answer to

1:02:23 that. There's no way to definitively

1:02:24 know that, although all signs point to that probably being

1:02:28 probably. Being exactly.

1:02:29 But no one's gonna sit there and go yes, that's what occurred.

1:02:31 Like scientists are not willing to go that far.

1:02:35 Yeah. But they were willing to say

1:02:36 that that's that is there is some evidence that would support

1:02:40 that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:02:43 Oh. Man, but in terms of crazy.

1:02:45 Of Russell's death now because of what Greg does next is means

1:02:52 that we don't have any answers for Russell.

1:02:54 None. So what he in his words, he then

1:02:58 panicked, which the cops then questioned vehemently because

1:03:03 he's a a pilot. Yep.

1:03:05 One of the key characteristics of a pilot is that they are

1:03:08 cool, calm and collected in a crisis.

1:03:10 They. Are trained.

1:03:12 Fully trained to be that way. And we're talking a very senior

1:03:15 pilot, a very experienced pilot, commercial pilot.

1:03:19 Not as if there were witnesses to this at this exact moment in

1:03:21 time. So he's got time to breathe, but

1:03:24 these, both these people, According to him, died

1:03:26 immediately. Yep.

1:03:28 So he's then left there with two dead bodies.

1:03:31 Yep. And his decision at that point

1:03:36 in time was to load those bodies onto his trailer.

1:03:40 He pulled equipment, as we said, into the tent and lit the

1:03:44 campsite on fire. He used a little bit of petrol

1:03:48 from his car as an accelerant, yeah.

1:03:51 Lit that to the point where as we said, there was a portaloo

1:03:54 kind of tent in the background that didn't get any of the fire

1:03:59 that was still standing. But the rest of the campsite was

1:04:02 burnt to the ground, metal bars to nothing.

1:04:05 The side of his vehicle was also burnt.

1:04:08 So pretty decent fire that was that was lit there.

1:04:12 So he then with these two bodies in the trailer of his car and

1:04:17 this is where he got picked up in terms of the cameras.

1:04:19 So he went to exit because he had an idea of where he was

1:04:22 going to dump the bodies, but he couldn't get out through where

1:04:27 he expected to be able to get out.

1:04:28 So he had to to like a 20 or 30 point turn to get turned back

1:04:33 around with his trailer on the back of his car.

1:04:35 We've been a freaking nightmare. Yeah.

1:04:38 So he's had to turn back around, which has then thrown his plan

1:04:41 all together and he's then. So then he's dumped the bodies

1:04:44 where he didn't really want to, which was up near Mount Hotham,

1:04:47 which is obviously when they've got a ping off of the mobile

1:04:50 phone tower. So that he's dumped the bodies

1:04:53 up there with every intention that he's like, I can't leave

1:04:56 them here, but I've got no other choice.

1:04:58 I'll need to do that and I'll come back later and sort it out.

1:05:00 Yeah, he's left. And that's when it's gone into

1:05:03 lockdown. Yeah.

1:05:05 So he couldn't get back there to do anything about it for quite

1:05:07 some time. So yeah, I think it was no late,

1:05:10 late in May ish. I think we came out of lockdown.

1:05:12 At the first instance. Yeah, good. 7-8 weeks

1:05:16 potentially or something like that that we're in lockdown for.

1:05:18 God kill me. So he did go back the first

1:05:21 time. And at that point he did move

1:05:23 the bodies again. Yeah, but but what he was, he

1:05:27 was quite surprised when he got there.

1:05:28 There had been no animal attack on the bodies, he said, or

1:05:31 anything. They were quite.

1:05:33 And because I was getting into the cooler months as well, they

1:05:35 hadn't decomposed as much as he thought they would have.

1:05:38 Yeah, but so again, he did move them.

1:05:41 Yep. He admits all this.

1:05:43 He again exited, went out. He did return a second time and

1:05:48 at this time he decided to burn the bodies.

1:05:52 And he didn't just burn the bodies.

1:05:54 So when he decided to do this, he apparently burnt them for 12

1:05:58 hours. Absolutely.

1:06:00 And then he would, he crushed up the remains, which meant that

1:06:05 that's where we're saying there is no evidence as to how Russell

1:06:08 died. We couldn't tell you from

1:06:10 scientific evidence whether he was stabbed, shot, strangled.

1:06:15 There is no cause of death that we can have for his body.

1:06:19 The most that was able to be found in the trial that they

1:06:21 talked about was for Carol. There were some craning

1:06:25 fragments that they could say had come in contact with metal.

1:06:31 Therefore, that potentially could mean it was.

1:06:34 A bullet, Yeah. That you know, but even that

1:06:36 they wouldn't even draw that as a definitive conclusion.

1:06:39 No, there was no like strong forensic evidence of.

1:06:42 That yeah, but touched had you know come in contact with metal

1:06:45 therefore potentially could be that could be the bullet that

1:06:49 has maybe touched there so. You know this second site, they

1:06:52 found 2000 fragments belonging to Carol and Russell.

1:07:00 Yeah, tiny little. Fragments because they were able

1:07:03 to do amazing stuff like in terms of just like finding DNA

1:07:07 to find out what was there and what wasn't.

1:07:11 Now we should say too, this wasn't found until after they

1:07:14 arrested yes, Greg was after they arrested him.

1:07:17 So there was I mean, I think it could have been actually a

1:07:19 couple of months later. I've probably got the dates here

1:07:21 I feel. Like, it was.

1:07:22 Yeah, it was. It was a little while later.

1:07:25 Yeah. Just I'm going to read a quote

1:07:27 from Gregory Lynn about why he did what he did.

1:07:31 I panicked and I thought, you know, that's my shotgun.

1:07:35 There's one person dead and he's dead as well.

1:07:38 Now I'm going to be found guilty of this.

1:07:40 You've got an interesting language to use.

1:07:42 I found that fascinating. I just had to write that down

1:07:45 like that's. Very.

1:07:47 I'm going to be found guilty of this like I am.

1:07:50 Guilty. Not not, you know, oh, Jesus,

1:07:53 like then I think I did this or. Innocent, wouldn't you go?

1:07:56 If this had happened the way he said it happened, you'd go to

1:08:00 the police, you'd be like, fucking hell, this just

1:08:02 happened. Like I know you know it is what?

1:08:05 Who cares about you? You know you've got to.

1:08:08 I don't know. Why didn't he go to the police

1:08:11 straight away? Because he's a psychopath,

1:08:13 obviously. And there's evidence from that,

1:08:15 yeah. I mean, he's a fucking.

1:08:18 Should we get into here who he was?

1:08:20 Prior, let's do it. Let's do it.

1:08:21 Let's do that. So there's a number of things

1:08:24 that link him to a number of incidents.

1:08:27 Yep. So as we're saying earlier, his

1:08:29 vehicle that he he owned, he bought that back in 1990s, mid

1:08:35 1990s. 9494 was it? Yeah.

1:08:38 And when he purchased it, it was the colour white.

1:08:40 Yep, until he took a trip out into the I want to say it was to

1:08:51 Central Australia. Yes, it was, yeah.

1:08:53 He returned from Central Australia and turned it blue.

1:08:58 Why? Why, why, why?

1:09:01 Why? Because what's very interesting

1:09:04 then is that this incident occurs and he's the first thing

1:09:06 he one of the first things he does is repaint his vehicle tan.

1:09:10 Now, I just think that that's obviously something he's done

1:09:13 previously. Why would you not do like, Yeah,

1:09:18 sorry, yeah, just red flag #1. Oh fucking Earth.

1:09:22 And yeah, that's right, past past behaviour, yeah, has

1:09:28 dictated his future behaviour. So what has actually happened in

1:09:31 the past to lead to the first colour change?

1:09:33 Yep, Yep, totally keep so. He's also so he was just said he

1:09:37 had an ex-wife. His ex-wife was Lisa.

1:09:40 Now Lisa and him had were married and they had a couple of

1:09:43 kids. Now it was very known that it

1:09:45 was an abusive relationship. There are a number of incidences

1:09:48 where he actually, one incident was absolutely horrific where he

1:09:52 had actually hog tied her and left her out in the, the cold

1:09:57 and hosed her down. It was in like the middle of

1:10:00 like winter, hosed her down and then left her outside for at

1:10:05 least 20 minutes. And the so the police were

1:10:07 called. And so this is all like on

1:10:09 record. This occurred.

1:10:11 His statement to the police was actually was that he, he, he

1:10:15 admitted that that was bizarre behaviour for him to have done

1:10:18 that to her. Oh my God, now piece of shit.

1:10:22 In 1999, Lisa was found again on her lawn completely.

1:10:29 She was dead, but her blood alcohol level was .2.

1:10:33 Yep. She also had sleeping pills in

1:10:35 her system. She was not known to be a

1:10:38 drinker. She would have a glass of wine,

1:10:41 but she was not known to be a heavy drinker.

1:10:45 There's a lot. Of difference between a glass of

1:10:47 wine and a point. 2 is a concentration of.

1:10:50 Alcohol. That's a lot.

1:10:51 That's four times the legal limit.

1:10:54 You're. You're real off your head.

1:10:55 You're drunk, Yeah. You're drunk.

1:10:56 Drunk. Yeah.

1:10:58 That's, yeah. That's not a glass of wine or

1:11:00 two. That's not even a, that's more

1:11:01 than a bottle. Yeah.

1:11:02 Like sort of situation. That's not.

1:11:04 Yeah. So.

1:11:05 Yeah. So she was, it was found at the

1:11:08 time to be a suicide and there was a coronial inquest into it

1:11:15 at the time and there wasn't found to be a third party

1:11:17 involvement. However, this is being looked at

1:11:21 again and as being reopened, the police are looking into it more.

1:11:26 Many people even at the time have put in have said, had state

1:11:31 statements taken that really indicate that he was.

1:11:35 Involved, and this was including neighbors who'd witnessed like,

1:11:39 some absolutely horrific acts of violence against Lisa.

1:11:45 Yeah, let's see what comes of that, I guess.

1:11:48 There's another one. Yeah, go on.

1:11:49 So now Lisa had very good friends that they lived around

1:11:53 the corner from them at the time and they they geared in family.

1:11:57 There was a lady by the name of Oh my goodness.

1:12:00 So Annie sorry Annie and husband was Jacques.

1:12:04 Now they lived on Zigzag Rd. I love that great name of the

1:12:08 road. Now they were found as it was

1:12:11 found to at the time be labeled a murder suicide in March of

1:12:16 2010. Now the in their house, it was

1:12:20 found that there they had three dogs that were found shot and

1:12:27 now they treated those dogs like their own children, like they

1:12:30 were their children. They so they were shot.

1:12:34 Annie had been shot and in her bed and Jacques was found with

1:12:39 the shotgun holding a shotgun and shot and as if he'd shot

1:12:44 himself. OK, now this was not something

1:12:50 that anyone in the area would expect of this family.

1:12:54 They were considered the most loved up couple.

1:12:58 They were loved by everyone. During that day that they were

1:13:03 found, they were out and about walking their dogs, they had had

1:13:08 phone calls with friends, they had been at a cafe out.

1:13:13 They had done their normal day things, nothing indicating that

1:13:17 you would be going home to a murder suicide.

1:13:20 Oh, sorry. And they also burnt the house

1:13:21 down. Yeah, the house was.

1:13:23 Also down. That's what I find very

1:13:25 interesting about this. So again, another little

1:13:28 element. Evidence to be disposed of.

1:13:31 Now from what police have found that in 2000 and 7 Greg Lynn

1:13:40 returned from he was probably that was it with Guitar Airlines

1:13:45 and so he returned to Australia in 2007.

1:13:47 So he was definitely in Melbourne in back in the area.

1:13:52 We go back to when Lisa was alive in 99 and then she was

1:13:57 very good friends with this family.

1:13:59 There have been rumours that Greg was not happy with them and

1:14:04 that they potentially believed that that he.

1:14:08 Murdered Lisa. I think they had made statements

1:14:11 to that effect, yeah. So was there a grudge?

1:14:16 Did he do something? Because the other interesting

1:14:18 fact of this is that Jacques didn't own a gun.

1:14:24 Jacques had never touched a gun, had no experience with guns

1:14:27 whatsoever. And a shotgun's a very

1:14:30 interesting choice of weapon anyway for a suicide.

1:14:34 Yeah, there was. This gun has no connection to

1:14:38 him whatsoever. That no one can prove where this

1:14:41 gun appeared from. Yeah, sounds a little soft.

1:14:45 Doesn't it? Yeah.

1:14:46 So and Greg Lynn's connected to them too.

1:14:50 Yeah, and all of the evidence was burnt really like anything.

1:14:55 Yet again, there were no. Fingerprints that were able to

1:14:57 be obtained from the scene? Nope.

1:15:00 You know, they couldn't get fingerprints off the off the gun

1:15:03 or anything like that, Jack. 'S fingerprints were on the gun,

1:15:06 but he was held holding it like he was found holding it.

1:15:09 It was kind of like. On him.

1:15:11 Yeah, OK. Greg is an incredibly intriguing

1:15:17 character. Yeah.

1:15:19 I I missed all this side of him when this happened.

1:15:23 I was too involved in the button man.

1:15:25 Oh God. Yes, yes, it's it's a very

1:15:32 curious position and obviously we can't say one way or another.

1:15:36 And I don't think we're especially maybe for Lisa's

1:15:41 death, something may come of it, I think, in this.

1:15:43 They're reopening both cases. They are doing both, are they?

1:15:46 OK? So they must have evidence to be

1:15:48 able to do that, then new and compelling evidence to be able

1:15:51 to do that. Yeah.

1:15:52 OK, well let's watch this. Base, I don't believe that there

1:15:55 was a coronial inquest for the first.

1:15:57 I don't think there's been one for the Zigzag Rd. family.

1:16:00 I think there there definitely was for Lisa, yes, but I believe

1:16:03 they're gonna look do that again.

1:16:05 Right. So also they're reopening,

1:16:06 they're doing another coronial link, I think so.

1:16:08 OK, All right, well, let's see what comes of.

1:16:10 That yeah, see if that comes about and what goes on with that

1:16:12 I. Mean given given where Gregory

1:16:15 Lean is now, I feel like that's probably enough evidence to

1:16:17 support opening and yeah, and that the link.

1:16:19 Obviously, none of this was brought up in trial.

1:16:21 No, police were fully aware of all this information at the

1:16:24 time. Yeah, But none of that was

1:16:25 obviously admissible in court. Yeah, yeah, Oh my God.

1:16:29 But yes, so we get to the trial and the trial, it starts off

1:16:35 interesting the trial even like because they go, they obviously

1:16:39 they have the jury already to go.

1:16:41 Yeah, on day one. And we still, we don't know what

1:16:43 happened here. No, but day one is meant to get

1:16:46 started. And the next thing you know, the

1:16:48 judge is dismissing that jury and saying we're going to have

1:16:51 to get a whole new jury brought in.

1:16:54 So that was a rocky start to it all.

1:16:56 Anyway, yeah, as I say, we don't know what happened, but

1:16:58 something has occurred that they have decided.

1:17:02 And the judge said this is no one's fault.

1:17:03 It's just something that happens, one of these things,

1:17:07 And they've just dismissed the entire jury.

1:17:08 I'd be so pissed off if I was on that jury.

1:17:11 Oh, I know this juicy one, and they're not.

1:17:14 I mean, although. It was a it was a long, long

1:17:16 trial. Yeah, true.

1:17:19 Yes. So they end up having to get

1:17:21 another lot of jury in and I was in a few spares and they get the

1:17:26 trial underway and the trial went for about 6 weeks.

1:17:29 I think it was. It was.

1:17:31 And it, like I was gonna say it didn't raise obviously all his

1:17:34 previous things, but we went, he went through all his story.

1:17:38 He got on the stand, which again, oh, oh.

1:17:42 Absolutely like the narcissistic traits of this man.

1:17:47 It it just, and, and I think so after the trial, they also

1:17:52 released all of his police interviews and stuff to the

1:17:54 public, which were very, very telling.

1:17:56 And I think they absolutely nailed the fact the way he

1:18:00 speaks. But even at the trial, nothing

1:18:04 was about the impact of what he did on Russell or or not even

1:18:09 what he did if he's claiming innocence, right?

1:18:12 He never even acknowledged the fact that Russell and Carol's

1:18:17 family had lost something in this, in this whatever he thinks

1:18:21 happened or whatever he says happened.

1:18:24 He didn't even acknowledge that. No, like he's so fucking callous

1:18:29 and all he cared about was himself.

1:18:33 All he cared about was how he was seen in this instance.

1:18:36 He wanted to uphold this view that he thought the public had

1:18:39 of him in that, you know, he's this amazing, you know, he's a

1:18:42 pilot and. He's, well, we should just say

1:18:45 in his own home. His wife called him Captain,

1:18:49 Yeah, that was and family called him Wolf Creek though.

1:18:53 Yeah, behind his back. And I don't know if that's about

1:18:58 how he looked. You know, he was more

1:19:00 behavioural than. Yeah.

1:19:02 Oh, for sure. Oh, for sure.

1:19:05 Yeah. Wife calling him Captain.

1:19:07 That just gave me the heebie. Totally gave me the the.

1:19:10 Ick, yeah. There's that's really.

1:19:12 Fucked up. It's so fucked.

1:19:14 Up. It is fucked up.

1:19:16 I mean, maybe the bedroom, but I mean really like.

1:19:18 Only if he had his pilot hat on at the time.

1:19:24 Oh God, yes, yeah, he's just. Yeah, really just.

1:19:30 Not right. During the trial, he, so I think

1:19:33 they, the trial was like 5 weeks of evidence and then it was a

1:19:35 week of jury deliberations. Yeah, a week or so of jury

1:19:39 deliberations. And during that week, he sat in

1:19:41 that courtroom expressionless. Yes.

1:19:45 Calm, very composed and he was taking prolific amounts of

1:19:51 notes. There's the pilot.

1:19:53 Yeah, I can. You know, I'm at that in that

1:19:56 sense, yeah. I don't know, people who work in

1:19:58 the airline industry who have said to me that, look, if a

1:20:03 pilot's not neurodivergent, I'd be concerned.

1:20:05 Like I'd prefer, I'd prefer a neurodivergent pilot.

1:20:09 That who someone who is very, you know, meticulous in every

1:20:13 way and can be that. Yeah, calm in in those sorts of

1:20:20 yeah, environments. Yeah, Sorry, but I, I don't know

1:20:25 that that's what was going on for him, to be honest, I think

1:20:27 it's not neurodivergence. No, no.

1:20:32 There were 49 witnesses that were called to the stand.

1:20:35 For the prosecution, yeah. For the defence, there was only

1:20:38 one being him. Well.

1:20:41 Who else would they have called? There was no one else for them

1:20:44 to. Call.

1:20:44 Yeah, and I really am intrigued. You'll never know the answer to

1:20:47 this, but I'd love to know. I mean, they generally say that

1:20:50 no defence lawyer would expect their client to get on the

1:20:53 stand. And usually it is basically a, a

1:20:57 situation where you know, that they, they have to, legally they

1:21:00 have to give their client the opportunity to and say that is

1:21:03 something you can do. We advise that you don't though,

1:21:05 you know, it's usually the line. And I really want to know how

1:21:09 far that went in that conversation.

1:21:10 I bet you 1,000,000 bucks they were like do not get up there.

1:21:13 Do not get up there. And we're like, no, I've got to

1:21:15 tell my story, people. If I get up there and tell

1:21:18 people, they will believe, believe me.

1:21:20 They will believe me because I'm using.

1:21:21 Yep. Just ask me, yeah.

1:21:24 I'm way smarter than all of. Them.

1:21:26 I'm better than everyone. They will believe me because I

1:21:30 am. I'm better than them.

1:21:31 I'm smarter than them. Well.

1:21:36 So on June 25th the jury returned their verdict, which

1:21:42 was a very interesting verdict. It was a split verdict, which is

1:21:46 very unusual, so he found that. In a case like this, it's really

1:21:51 tough. It's a tricky one.

1:21:53 Yeah. And they So what they actually

1:21:54 found, they found him guilty of the murder of Carol.

1:21:57 Yep. Which saying, and his version of

1:22:00 events obviously is saying like he killed her with the shotgun

1:22:03 went off and that they're saying basically saying that no, he's

1:22:07 at fault there. He did cold bloodedly kill her,

1:22:11 right? Shot her.

1:22:13 We don't believe his story, but we believe that you killed her.

1:22:16 However, they found him not guilty of the count of murdering

1:22:20 Russell Hill. Now the reasoning and you, you

1:22:23 don't know the reasoning from the jury's perspective, but what

1:22:25 we can gather is what the reasoning could be of their with

1:22:29 this decision is that because there was no evidence of how

1:22:34 Russell Hill died, there's therefore an element of doubt

1:22:41 that comes over this of how he died and what, what do we make

1:22:45 what, how has he murdered him? We don't know.

1:22:47 So therefore how can we convict him of murder when we don't even

1:22:51 know whether the knife is what killed him or whether he was

1:22:54 shot or whether he was strangled or what went on?

1:22:57 We don't know. So therefore they've gone with a

1:23:00 not guilty on that one. My thinking though is why

1:23:05 couldn't they have got him on a man's or?

1:23:07 Even tampering of evidence because.

1:23:09 Wow, yeah. He, I mean he fully admits.

1:23:13 That. To the fact that he moved the

1:23:16 bodies twice, that he burnt they burnt the crushed them up.

1:23:20 And he even says it's because I wanted to destroy evidence.

1:23:23 I wanted to distance myself from this as much as I could, and I

1:23:25 did get. Him on that?

1:23:27 But they he didn't, he wasn't, I don't know, I don't know, I

1:23:31 don't know whether they were like, well, let's go for top

1:23:34 end. We're going for a double murder

1:23:35 conviction here, but. See, there was not enough

1:23:37 evidence for that and because of what he did, I totally.

1:23:40 Understand, I, I really, really feel for Russell Hill.

1:23:44 Oh, same. Absolutely.

1:23:46 Because, I mean, I guess we can say what we believe.

1:23:50 I think absolutely he should have been convicted of both.

1:23:53 Murders 100%. But I feel.

1:23:56 But I don't understand where the jury came from.

1:23:58 I. I That's right.

1:23:59 I feel like the jury probably made the right call in the

1:24:02 instructions they were given. Because the other thing that's

1:24:04 worth noting here is that the instructions to the jury from

1:24:09 the judge went for nearly a day. Yeah, because there was so much

1:24:14 for this jury to consider. And the judge, I mean, the law

1:24:18 sets the bar very, very high. But the judge made that so known

1:24:22 to the jury that in order to convict him of both of these

1:24:26 murders, these are the parameters that you have to

1:24:28 make. These are the the barriers that

1:24:29 you have to go overcome. And they are high and they

1:24:32 should be high. That is, you know, it needs to

1:24:35 be proof beyond a reasonable doubt.

1:24:37 And in terms of Russell's murder or Russell's death, I actually

1:24:44 can't understand why the jury came back with what they did.

1:24:47 Yeah, I, I'm absolutely, I do completely agree.

1:24:50 But yeah, I just, I'm frustrated that there weren't other charges

1:24:53 alongside this. I agree with that.

1:24:55 Why didn't they? Because at the end of the day,

1:24:57 all he got was 32 years with 24 years non parole.

1:25:04 Yeah. So I mean, at the top end of

1:25:06 what he's going to receive for this, he's, I mean, look, he's

1:25:09 he's what, 57 when he went in. So I mean, he'll be 80 in his

1:25:14 80s, yeah, at that point. So look, he's still got some

1:25:17 life maybe that he's like, you know, going to live potentially

1:25:20 where I'd like to just make sure he's in there forever.

1:25:22 I don't know that he'll get parole, but in there forever.

1:25:25 Well, but then there's seek, OK, so there's, there is an appeal

1:25:27 that's been lodged. Now we don't know the outcome of

1:25:30 that appeal. That appeal is actually being

1:25:32 the. So the leave for appeal hearing

1:25:35 is being heard on the 31st of October this year.

1:25:38 So at this leave hearing is where they'll decide whether or

1:25:41 not the arguments that have been put forward for the appeal are

1:25:45 in are strong enough to justify a full appeal hearing.

1:25:49 So we're still not even there yet in terms of hearing a full

1:25:52 appeal hearing. So he's appealing the sentence.

1:25:56 Yes, sentence, not the conviction.

1:25:58 And because at the end of the day, this is what shifts me a

1:26:00 little bit. So he because he's been now

1:26:03 acquitted of Russell Hill's murder double jeopardy laws

1:26:07 being that he is can't be tried that again.

1:26:11 So that's that's out the question.

1:26:12 So the only outcomes that can come from this is that the

1:26:16 conviction and the and the the sentencing is upheld.

1:26:20 Yeah. The others being that there

1:26:23 could be a reduction or a very or a variance of some sort in

1:26:27 the sentencing OK or could be a quashed conviction and then

1:26:32 ordered a retrial, but that would be only a retrial.

1:26:35 Of Carol of. Carol, not a Russell.

1:26:38 Oh fucking hell. So I don't think you'd want to

1:26:41 risk that. No, but I mean, but they have

1:26:44 actually put forward some fairly valid points in their.

1:26:46 Appeal such as? OK.

1:26:47 So the first one being that it's a procedural unfairness and it

1:26:52 was a failure to allow Lynn to respond to the Crown attacks

1:26:55 because during the a closing statement, the prosecution

1:27:00 actually accused Russell of of changing his story and put

1:27:05 forward something that they hadn't brought up earlier.

1:27:09 So he was unable to respond to that and rebut it.

1:27:13 Yeah. Like, I mean, and you can't

1:27:16 argue that. I I mean, I can see that it's

1:27:18 actually a valid point. Yeah, decades.

1:27:21 The other one is a misconduct on the era of Ballistics and the

1:27:26 forensic evidence. So they're sort of stating that

1:27:28 basically that the. Is this the Ballistics evidence?

1:27:34 Of with the bullet for Carol, Yeah, OK.

1:27:36 And saying that, where's the real evidence that that's even a

1:27:38 bullet? And and that's the thing, I've

1:27:40 heard them, I've heard discussed and I think there was a very

1:27:44 recent media article about it where they had a forensic

1:27:49 experts looking at it. And they basically said, yeah,

1:27:53 there is absolutely no way we could get solid ballistic

1:27:55 evidence from that. Because the tiny little micro

1:28:01 marks or micro signatures of a bullet that forensics can look

1:28:05 at, say, if a bullet's gone into flesh that they can then look at

1:28:12 is one thing, but all of that would have been lost in the

1:28:15 burning of that bone. All of those fine little

1:28:18 details, yes, they might be able to tell that a bullet has passed

1:28:21 through a fragment of bone that's been burnt, but they

1:28:23 wouldn't be able to say that the bullet came from this gun or

1:28:26 that it was this calibre or any of that because there's, there's

1:28:30 too much heat damage to that. Yeah, piece of organic material.

1:28:34 Yeah. OK.

1:28:36 Yeah. And the other one is in regards

1:28:38 to basically the instructions they were given.

1:28:43 There's the jury. What?

1:28:44 What's the? Conjecture.

1:28:45 Yeah, the conjecture there is around the fact that they feel

1:28:48 that they reached a guilty verdict by following legal

1:28:53 impermissible inferences or by relying on flawed logic or

1:28:58 speculation. OK, So they're saying that in

1:29:01 particular the tension point is around Lynn was acquitted of of

1:29:05 Russell Hill's murder but convicted of Carol's.

1:29:09 So the defence argues that the logical consistency would demand

1:29:12 scrutiny. If the jury accepted some

1:29:14 version of events for one death, how did they reject it for the

1:29:17 other without felicious? Reasoning, but because there was

1:29:20 less evidence like I, I get that.

1:29:23 I also kind of get that from that perspective to the vote.

1:29:26 Uh huh, unfortunately. This is where I feel like

1:29:29 legally they're gonna wind this around and I, I really feel

1:29:33 there's gonna be a reduction in this sentence.

1:29:35 That's my prediction, I really do.

1:29:38 Feel. But then do you then hope that

1:29:39 maybe some further charges are going to be brought against him

1:29:45 for previous indiscretions that we've discussed?

1:29:48 Let's hope so. That's what I'm really hoping

1:29:50 that because I actually, I'm not ruling out here from what I can

1:29:53 read here of the what the defence are putting forward for

1:29:58 the appeal. Yeah, I wouldn't put out the

1:30:00 question that he could be. Don't say it.

1:30:04 Acquitted. Don't say it.

1:30:05 Are you fucking kidding me? Murder.

1:30:07 I can see where that could be brought.

1:30:11 Yeah. Oh my God.

1:30:13 Yeah, Oh. My God.

1:30:15 So, yeah, I really hope that they then follow up other.

1:30:22 I think in that case they've got to bring on charges for moving

1:30:25 the bodies. Yeah.

1:30:27 And and those things. Oh, they would have to.

1:30:30 Surely they. Can they would have it up their

1:30:32 sleeve? I mean, they've got the video,

1:30:34 they've got the police. He's admitted to it.

1:30:36 Yeah. He's like, admitted to doing

1:30:38 that. And he says why he did.

1:30:40 It but then I mean for that, what's he going to get six

1:30:42 years? Probably time served.

1:30:44 Yeah, time served. Oh.

1:30:45 My. God, so I hope that then I can

1:30:47 get him on. Maybe Lisa, maybe the Geeden

1:30:51 family and whoever died in Central Australia when he

1:30:56 changed his car in the 90s. He's he could be a full blown

1:31:00 serial killer. Oh.

1:31:02 My God. Allegedly.

1:31:05 Allegedly. Got to keep that in there, don't

1:31:09 we? This this case blows my mind.

1:31:14 It was such an intriguing case to follow at the time.

1:31:18 I thought I the button man. I was there and then I was

1:31:21 researching. I went fuck.

1:31:22 There's a whole other side to this that I did not know.

1:31:25 Yeah, turns out, turns out. Man, completely innocent nice

1:31:29 old dude that just likes to stare people off.

1:31:32 Completely. We don't know that.

1:31:34 Apparently the locals around Macedon, he's.

1:31:36 Reckon he's fine, he's harmless. I don't know.

1:31:38 How harmless is he? He's just, he is.

1:31:40 I don't know. And take some photo of you while

1:31:42 you're sleeping. Like, no, that's not harmless.

1:31:45 I mean, at least he's not maybe Dane like oh the OR I thought, I

1:31:49 don't. Know it doesn't make me want to

1:31:51 go camping, but no. Exactly.

1:31:53 The big fours are good for me. Yeah.

1:31:55 Thank you very much. Yeah.

1:31:57 Yeah, sticking to the big four. Yeah, all those five stars, as I

1:32:02 say. Yeah, even better, I think it's

1:32:08 not. You know, we need to keep in

1:32:10 mind that at the end of the day, two families lost.

1:32:13 Very, very much loved men. Oh yeah, I mean those poor

1:32:18 grandkids. I mean that Carol was besotted

1:32:21 with and then they don't have their grandmother anymore.

1:32:23 That's freaking awful. He's and then Russell deceased.

1:32:27 You know, their, their biological grandfather died, you

1:32:30 know, Yeah. A while before that.

1:32:33 Russell and his family, the same thing.

1:32:35 I really I, I in particular, I have a lot of empathy for Robin

1:32:41 Hill. Absolutely.

1:32:43 Because not only has she lost her husband, everybody knows

1:32:46 that he was out there having an affair.

1:32:48 That would be embarrassing. It would be.

1:32:53 I just can't imagine the mixed emotions that she must be

1:32:56 feeling and I'm sure he's still feeling to this day.

1:32:58 And to know like, you know, that I mean, she loved him, there's

1:33:01 no question of that. And that he was then in this

1:33:03 position where he was in, you know, a fight of his life

1:33:06 situation, whatever went on that that that day and that the

1:33:10 person that was there with him through that was not you, was

1:33:13 another woman. I reckon that would be hard to

1:33:16 just, you know, to know that. I mean, I know his daughters

1:33:20 originally they sort of said, you know, when we first heard

1:33:21 that it was someone else with him.

1:33:22 We'll kind of at least he's with someone.

1:33:24 He's not alone. But then it's this double

1:33:26 jeopardy of that of like this whole like, but hang on a

1:33:28 minute, that's a woman that he's having an affair with, that he's

1:33:31 weird. That's it's a real like it's a

1:33:33 comfort, but no, it's not. Yeah.

1:33:34 Like how do you feel about SO? Conflicting.

1:33:37 So. Conflicting.

1:33:38 Such a lot to it. So hopefully they've been able

1:33:41 to come to some sort of rest with that.

1:33:44 But I mean, you're, I think. This is the trial.

1:33:47 The two families were a support for one another.

1:33:50 Yeah, I know Carol's sister was has been interviewed fairly

1:33:53 extensively and she seems like an absolutely lovely woman.

1:33:56 And so I can say that she would be incredibly respectful and,

1:33:59 you know, there'd be no, you know, animosity between both.

1:34:02 I think they would both from the picture you get of them publicly

1:34:05 when they've been out in the public, 3 doors, 2 doors more

1:34:07 so, but he did have three. But they all seem like

1:34:11 incredibly lovely, down to earth, normal people that I, I

1:34:14 hope that they can all come together and know that this is

1:34:17 not malice between them, that this issue is Gregory and

1:34:22 totally and that all that stuff is kind of secondary to it,

1:34:26 unfortunately. Even though.

1:34:28 It would be heartbreaking. Yeah.

1:34:31 Oh, God. Well, we'll find out soon.

1:34:35 We'll do a bit of an update maybe when we hear about the

1:34:37 appeal and where that's at. We will and come back to this

1:34:40 again. Yeah, that's.

1:34:42 It. The case that just keeps giving.

1:34:44 Isn't it? My goodness.

1:34:46 Now, just a reminder to everybody, next week there will

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