Episode 65 - The Missing Campers: Russell Hill & Carol Clay

0:15 Welcome back to Crime Besties. Here we are for another episode. Another week has gone by. It has been school holidays and we're recording on a Thursday night, which is a little different to normal. Just realized too actually it's Thursday night. So it's Thursday, the 25th of September. You're here. I'm here. You know what that means? What? We didn't get raptured. Oh. It's. True, it's true. That kind of tells me that maybe whatever God you believe in, I think she must listen to our podcast. Thank you ma'am.

0:50 It. Makes sense. We'll. Take it, whatever, I love it. How's your week been? You've had a little bit of time without kids, Bit of R&R, much needed R&R. How's it been? Yeah, it's been quiet. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Had a pedicure. No. Yeah, A. Couple of like just. Lanes, you know, like just wake up and they just go. I don't have to be up. Oh, they're a lovely. Scroll my phone till it finishes sort of stuff, you know, and just what ifs. It doesn't ever finish though, no. That's the problem. Until you've had enough of it.

1:27 All right. Yeah, there are. Ideas that I can do. It's not that I have. To do them, yeah. Oh, that's so nice. Yeah, that's been nice to do that. And then but I've had some nice dinners out with friends and catch ups. One particular and we worked out when we got there, hadn't seen her in 12 months and that's that's not OK. No, no, no, no. Like obviously we're talking but not caught up in person. And so I was like, oh, that's not OK. No. So we've locked in another one before Christmas. Just. Yeah, good idea.

1:52 Counteract that. They're like, yeah, so that's nice, yeah. Get to time to do those things. And you know, I was, I was gonna go into work, but I haven't. Good girl I. Thought no. No, no, that's not right. No, you've got holidays for a reason. Yeah, and much needed. You've been camping. That's. That's the, that's the, that's the antithesis of a holiday. It's like, so we went away with a couple of families from school and we went not far, about an hour and a half from home. The park we stayed at, we stayed at a big four.

2:27 It was great. There were so many facilities for the kids I love about. It was just I prefer to do that with the kids that even like an Airbnb for that reason, like not the camping side of it. I'll get a cabin, thank you very much. Yeah. The fact that they've got bike tracks and like one off benches had a mini golf course, yeah. I had a mini golf, yeah. Tennis, Yeah. Basketball. Basketball. It had a swimming pool it. Was yeah. So they could swim. And even though it was cold. Yeah, there's a games room.

2:54 It had foosball and air hockey. Oh. So it was very well set up. Yeah. We barely saw them. Which was? That's always. Good, yeah. Yeah, and you? Know they're off their devices and all that sort of stuff it's good yeah it's very very good that's it so that was a look there were really good parts of but I'm not a camper I'm really just not that into it because OK so I came home and I was like the first day it absolutely pissed down all right so everything got wet everything needed washing when we got home and I'm like literally everything I just said to you before we got home yesterday I'm pretty sure I'm like 7 or 8 loads in and I think I've just hit the halfway mark oh.

3:37 No. What on earth are you washing? Like so we took bathers towels. Yeah, OK. Towels for us. Yes. So that's, you know, 3 loads there basically. Wow. Then we've got. You always load your load your washable shop like I do. We've actually got a pretty big washing machine too. I think it's like 10 kilos. I shove that shit. In. We've got Oh no, that'll fit in one load. Oh, no, see, I'm like, I like a bit of space in the washing machine. Yeah. Especially because most of this stuff was really filthy. Yeah, that's fair.

4:06 And then we had like all of the sleeping bags need because they're all a bit damp. They needed a walk like just there's Oh my God, I walked into the laundry just before and I'm like, it's so fucking overwhelming. But it'll get there. It'll get there. It's we're recording this the day before the grand final public holiday in Victoria. So I've got a long weekend now to that's really. Not what you want to spend your long weekend doing either. No, no it's not. I'll get it done. Like at least I've got the time to do it and I'm not sort of piecemealing it.

4:38 It'll be fine. Yeah, but the actual camping, look for what it was, it was great. Good company and everything and the kids had a ball. And I do get the appeal of it if the weather is perfect, but. They say you're using like toilet blocks and stuff. No, no, we had an on sweet side. So which is? Actually the way to camping. So we had our own toilet shower, OK, on our on our side. Yeah, that was good. I don't like toilet blocks. Or I know it makes me sound so precious. I know. No, no, I sleep under 5 stars.

5:10 Thank you very much. Yeah. Not 25,000. I mean, the stars out there were beautiful, but I'm telling you what, we were not slumming it because one of our friends, he's a tradie and he brought his work van. Yeah. And inside his work van, he's got a microwave and air cooker, air fryer. We had a slushy machine. We had a projector. The kids watched movies at night. Like it was not really, no, it was not really slumming at. Yeah. Yeah, we had everything we wanted and then some. Yeah, but it's just that the comfortable couch that you can't have or I don't know.

5:47 Yeah, it's not the same. I get the appeal of it, but also it's not really my thing. But anyway, we had fun and it was good and it was a good way to keep the kids entertained for half a week during the school holidays. Yes. Yeah, no good. No. And it gets the kids out and doing things. All that's it, that's it Fair. That was us next week. I don't know. I'm working and I don't know it's that juggle back to the normal juggle next week and. Yeah, yeah, we head off next week for our our trip. So yeah, I'm looking.

6:13 Forward to that, that'll be nice. How many nights are you going for just? 33 nights, yeah, and again, only like 2 1/2 hours away. It's not a huge drive, but lots of things planned. I've booked all the extra bits and pieces now that we're gonna do, so I'm feeling like we're gonna have a a good time. Yeah, you will. Yeah, that'll be fun. That'll be really good. Yes, a glass of fino in the evenings. Oh yes, I mean, that's the that that is a saving grace of camping. Yeah, I don't know who I am really, because before when you said to me like another glass of wine, I went on, no, I'm driving and then went, no, we've got a.

6:45 Good. At least a couple of hours. We've got to get it. So yes, we are partaking in a a vena or two and came over for dinner before we started recording. She was subjected to the chaos of food. Oh. My God, the chaos. The food was good. I was just enjoying the food. Food was amazing. The chaos is nothing.

7:06 Kids were eating like what is this? What's going on? Yeah. Yeah, kids sitting at the table. What? Oh God, he. Already sit on a. Chair, that would be amazing. Yep, he needs a wobble cushion. He's got one. Oh, OK.

7:24 Shoot me. All right. OK, Say no more. Say no more. We were talking before we hit record today as well about how much engagement we've had over the last week. We were blown away. So first of all, Steph D'souza, who I think we've mentioned on the podcast before, she's she gave us a really generous buy me a coffee donation. Oh my God, a few months ago now. Yeah. And she actually, and in the hour episode, we were like, I wonder if she'll do a shout out for us. And she actually did on Instagram, I think it was, and TikTok and she just put our tagline in there.

8:00 And we think we've seen like a massive uptake uptick on, yeah, listens from her. So any of you listening who came from Steph? First of all, thanks for coming over here and checking us out. Yes. Second all of all to Steph, thank you. But we can't officially. Thank you enough, friend of the podcast, I'm gonna say. Friend of the podcast Steph D'souza Yes, you are. You have no choice but to be now. No, no, you're stuck with us. Yeah, that's it once you're stuck. You never want to. Go back good, you're stuck.

8:30 We've had some really gorgeous comments this week. We had Shannon, who sent us a message about her dad's Steve. So Shannon Mccritchie sent us a message. She said her dad got us onto our podcast. He doesn't have any social media or anything like that. And she asked us to give him a shout out. So Steve, first of all, what a rad dad. Yeah, and just for him. Absolute piece of shit these characters we talk about. Are they he? Loves it apparently, so we will keep going. So thanks Steve and thanks Shannon for you know, for thinking to contact us and love and give your dad a shout out.

9:05 So thank you and we love it that we've got some men followers and we have a. Few. Quite a few comments this week from men, so thank you because you're certainly not our key demographic. So any of you who want to be here will take it. Another one we had Anthony making lots of comments this. He's made some suggestions. I need to go and look into it. It's a different one to what I didn't know anything about it, so I'm going to do a bit. I'll look into that one and it sounds very. Very. We'll have to add it to the list.

9:33 And then we had, OK, I'm going to butcher this username. It's ads. Hey Simons, who's also given us some really nice comment on Spotify. And then last but not least, we've got 2 new Patreons this week. A massive, massive shout out to Amy James and Leanne Lydon. Leanne, I think both of them have actually given us, but like have bought us coffees before. But the names certainly sound familiar. So thank you ladies for joining us over on Patreon. Just before we hit record, we actually popped a couple of photos of our setup to everyone.

10:10 So if that's something that you're interested in and want to know a bit more about the process, because we did have a question this week about that too. Maybe our next Patreon episode can be a little bit more about how we do what we do and our process. And but yeah, and the other thing to note is we've got a Patreon episode that's coming up. We'll probably release that this week. Yeah, I think we released that this week, yeah. Excellent. Cool. Very good. We mentioned too that within the coming weeks we've got obviously the episode that we're recording right now will be released and then the following week we will have a week off from releases.

10:49 So just taking a break for just for the one week. If you're over on Patreon though, you will get an extra episode over there. So come and join us there if you want to get a little bonus episode of us for the for that. So you'll get the ones that we've already dropped obviously, and that new one that will come and then we'll pick back up again a week later. Should we give a little teaser about what that Patreon only episode's about? Oh yes, the one that we've recorded already. Yeah, yes, we can. So we've recorded already and it is about Real Housewives crime.

11:20 And there's so much of it. Oh, there is. So much of it we. Didn't I? I reckon we barely even scratch the surface. Really we've we've gone from like, you know, the the biggest ones that we. Thought of oh, you could. Find. Yeah, but I'm oh man, there's many. Many, so many Duis, so many misdemeanors and. Then there's the crime. Fashion. I mean, really. We didn't even touch on that really, but yeah, yeah. So much to get into there. And do you know what I found this week that I hadn't spoken to you about yet was that Emily from OC has her own true crime podcast with her husband open Shane.

11:53 What? Need to check it out. I haven't listened yet. It's only about had about 20 odd episodes released. I've only start. They've only started this year. They're only sort of more consistently releasing from what I can see, recent stuff. So it looks like over the course of the year they've been dabbling, I think. But yeah, I'll I've got to look into it more. But yeah, that was it's called legally. Brunette. Legally brunette. I wonder if they're going to get copyrighted. I'll have to give that a go.

12:23 I'll give that a go. It's because they're both lawyers, so that they come at like the true crime aspect from a legal point of view. So very interesting. Yeah, very good. Yeah. So combining our two loves. Love it, love it. Are we ready to get into today's episode? Now this is huge. I want to first and foremost say I must. I think I'm going to because this is all during like lockdowns and COVID stuff that I didn't actually know a lot of stuff about this. I went down a rabbit hole, which we'll get into when we get through this, that I seem to have missed a heap of information that came with this that we will get into as well.

13:02 OK, That when I've really looked into this, I'm like, oh wow. Before we really get started, I just, I actually want to dedicate this episode to my dad. Oh, yeah, he, but he was the one. He was like, you've got to do this case. I really want to hear your take on it. So, Ross, massive shout out to you today. We're talking about the Wanangatta Valley murders of, well, I guess, well, deaths of Russell Hill and Carol Clay and the perpetrator of, well, part of the crime. I suppose we can say now. Gregory Lynn.

13:38 So before we even get started, I know I just said that about my dad, but Peter, I've been listening to the missing Campers trial. Oh yes, a lot. I listened to it when it was coming out and then like it was sort of similar to the mushroom trial, like the mushroom lady trial where they had episodes every day while that was going through the court. And it was really interesting. I found it incredibly fascinating. Yeah, they gave a lot of information, a lot of detail. And it was great. But Peter takes particular offence to the fact that they call Greg Lynn like disgraced Jet star pilot Gregory Lynn, you know, because at the end of the day, well, Peter's like, why do they even say that?

14:25 Like it's media sensationalism, but I'm like, it's because if you're a commercial airline pilot, and he did, he worked for Anset and Jetstar Guitar Airlines as well. Guitar. Yep. You want to trust the person at the helm of that aeroplane? Absolutely. And if they are then capable of the things that he has now been convicted of being capable of. Mm Hmm. That's. Really disconcerting, even just the things he's admitted to lately. Yep, Yep. Oh yeah. That's disconcerting. So. He wasn't just a pilot like as in he was a a training captain.

15:02 So that means that he trained other captains into those roles. So he was the next level up to yeah, he was big deal. Yeah. Interesting character though in that many people didn't want to fly with him. I looked into a lot of the psychology behind his personality, which we will definitely get to in this episode. He's beyond interesting. Oh yeah, and there's. Lots more to him than meets the eye. Absolutely. Yeah. All right, let's get into it. So like on the morning of the 16th of March, I think contextually, sorry, before we even get started.

15:37 Contextually, yeah, we are talking literally the day or the days. Try to. And then the day Melbourne went into its first lockdown, where were you At Home already locked down because we had young children. Pretty much because, yeah. Because like, so we had kinder kids, kinder age kind of children. So, yeah, I was already I was at home very much so like anyway, but I mean, I know with work context as well, because it was there was this news coming that it was like this thing like, you know, and how is this going to impact us that it was kind of the looming for probably a few weeks prior of us all.

16:15 And I remember sitting at a meeting actually at council at like where we at school, not our school council, no, this at our local area council. Yep, I was on a board there for, for, for something. And there was a guy on the board there who was not very knowledgeable in this area who stated, oh, it's not going to affect us. And I remember sitting there going, oh gosh, that's just so opposite to what I'm hearing. Everywhere. Everywhere else. But I'm like, well, you know what you're talking about. Yeah, I hope you're right.

16:49 Like 100%. And he was like, yeah, I've been travelling all over the world and I'm hearing it from different. He'd come back from China, you know, like not long, long prior. China, we're gonna say this. Yeah, he, but he'd been travelling and things and like, Nah, this isn't gonna affect us, This is, we're fine. And I was like, OK, OK, cool, good, good. And then bang. Yeah, I still, I actually still remember exactly where I was when I heard the announcement. So my eldest was in prep at the time and I was walking into the school gates and I kind of walked into the gate with a mom I knew.

17:25 And she's like, oh, did you hear? They're making an announcement at 3:30, which is. Exactly like 3:30 every freaking day. Which is. The exact time that the kids get out of school, I'm like, right, I'm going to pick him up. I'm going to get back into the car and I'm going to listen to it. Yeah, and then finding out we were going into lockdown the next day it. Was like get all your shit and get home. Everyone was like Oh my God. And you know, my eldest hadn't even completed one term of prep. Yet. It was so mental.

17:55 It was absolutely mental. Yeah. Yeah. So there's people who are heading out who going off camping at this point were really doing it kind of going. But if we get another opportunity to like kind of thing they were they there were lots of people out at that point because it was going to close down and they were and I think getting in a last trip. And yeah, the threat of it, yeah, brought everyone out. They're like, well, we might as well do it now because we don't know when we're going to be able to do it again.

18:19 Yeah. And also, given it was March, the weather. Weather was going to turn anyway. So like as in, you know, you get that last bit of the weather and let's really push it because we'll make sure we do it because we don't know what's going to happen around the corner so. Yeah, and it was close enough to school holidays. They were probably families doing that anyway. Yeah. So yeah, it was a it was an interesting time. Oh yeah, get that twitch. I just don't know that I ever, I actually even want to think about it.

18:47 Yeah, in that context. But it gives you a bit of an idea of of where everyone was at in relation to this story and how it all unfolded. Did mean that I think when this occurred though, everyone was a bit gripped to it because it was either this or Tiger King, you know, like. Oh, Tiger King, Oh my God. Go back and listen to that episode, yeah. You say your skin killed her husband? Wow. Damn.

19:14 Yeah. So it wasn't a hell of a lot keeping us interested that, you know, you really got into this. And so there was a lots of theories, but I think being, you know, flown around, which I definitely got into once, but we'll get to it. I can't wait. I actually can't wait to hear it. So basically on the 16th of March in 2020, Gregory Lynn decided to go camping. And it was for the exact reasons that we were just talking about now. He sort of anticipated the fact that the world was going to shut down.

19:44 He was an airline pilot. I believe he'd been stood down at that point. Yeah. So he had been stood down, but purely just because they were like there were less flights, there were was less. Happening they needed people to do. That So he had put his hand. He had voluntarily done it. He hadn't been told to by the airline. That's not what happened. Yeah. He voluntarily stood himself down and took the leave. So he was just on leave. But yeah, his wife also worked for Jetstar in the cabin crew. Yeah. So she was still working though at the time.

20:14 Time. So she was still in employment there and working shifts and things and flying. Out, yes, he's packed up, he's gone for a bit of a camp in the high country in Victoria and there's a particular campsite that's really popular amongst, I'm going to say amongst really seasoned campus because when you enter into the Wanangatta Valley, there is nothing. You don't have any cell like reception, no mobile phone coverage. You are literally camping in the middle of nowhere. Mm hmm. Dense, dense bushland.

20:49 And there is no. I mean, you have to like being on your own, don't you? Oh, yeah, yeah. You're not going to come across other people out here. You know, if you if you bump into someone, that's pretty unheard of. There's certain camping spots that are well known and people usually might like might it's possible you rock up there and find one other person camping in the same spot, particularly in certain spots where there was like access to the the river, the Creek and things like that for water and those sorts of things.

21:16 But chances of, you know, on the roads and things as you're going here and you don't see people like and people, people do massive big hikes through there. It is dense. Like, there was one particular couple I was listening to talking about the fact that they got lost out there and were rescued, obviously because they're telling their story. But, and that's not unheard of. I mean, to be honest, 4 to 5 roughly on average per year people go missing in this area. Most of them found. Yeah. So this couple particularly what she was talking about was when they were trying to find a way out, they were walking through spots where he, her husband would get sort of 2 meters ahead of her and she would say stop, stop.

21:58 You've got to stop. I can't see you like that dense she was she was unable to find him when he was like 2 meters away from her. That's crazy. It's insane. But it gives you a bit of an idea of how dense and how Oh my God it just such challenging terrain. Well, I mean, this is we're talking about this area like the high country Victoria, this is not man from Snowy River. Yeah, you know, countryside. And there's a quote in that movie of saying that beautiful one day in trying to kill you the next. Yeah.

22:26 So that's exactly what this place is. It's it's absolutely stunning. I mean, I've done fair few trips out there myself for driving and what have you over there in the past and stunning, stunning views. But yeah, it's dangerous, as if you don't know what you're doing out there. Yeah, you're screwed. And that's just that's the whole thing. I think Gregory Lynn was quite a decent Bushman. This is something that he he enjoyed doing as a pastime. He was, he had like a whole array of guns and he was a hunter.

22:55 Yeah. He did a lot of hiking and all of that sort of stuff. These were things that he did as a as a hobby. And so yeah, I guess with the imminent lockdowns looming, he decided to get away for a little while and he ended up at what is known as Buck's Camp and he set up camp there on the night of the 16th of March. On the morning of the 19th of March in 2020, Russell Hill said goodbye to his wife and packed his 4 wheel drive and drove to Carol Clay's home. So she lived in the outskirts of Melbourne in a She lived in pack.

23:35 Pack and I believe yeah. Yeah, in Victoria and they headed, he picked her up on his way and headed off for the valley. So I think it's probably worth noting now that Russell Hill and Carol Clay had a very long standing affair. They were childhood sweethearts, and neither of them actually. This is according to friends who knew them and who knew them as a as a couple, as an illegitimate couple. Neither of them could really recall why they broke up when they were teenagers, but for whatever reason, life separated them.

24:10 They both married different people, had children, had children, had families, had lives, but at some point, and I believe they've sort of been having this affair for something like 20. Well, yeah, so early 2000s they found each other again, however that came about. Yeah, bumped into each other what? Same area. So it makes sense that they might have bumped into one another. Randomly saw each other and yeah, kicked off their affair. At that point Russell was introducing her to people as his cousin.

24:39 Yep, at places so and that kind of gave him, gave him an opportunity to be able to spend time with her publicly, I guess without it being looked at as unusual. His wife Robin was, he was telling her this was his first, first cousin and that that's why he was catching up with her. At some point though, it was it did come out that it she wasn't his first cousin. And Russell did admit to Robin that that it wasn't a cousin and that he was having an affair. He told Robin that it was over, it was not happening anymore and that that was that.

25:18 It was not. That they continue, right? On with their affairs. So at this point, when Russell goes out, picks her up, heads off into the the high country together, Robin is under the impression that that affair is long done and dusted and nonexistent. Well, she doesn't know that he's picking her. Up No, absolutely no knowledge. No 0 knowledge of her, Of her being part of his life still, yeah. So Carol Clay's husband had actually passed away during the course. They did divorce too. So she because from what I can gather, there was sort of a bit of a pact of like, well, they were going to leave their perspective others.

25:55 And so with that she did, but Russell did not. So yeah, then unfortunately he did pass away in that soon after that as well. Yeah, yeah. How would you feel if you were Carol Clay and that happened? Oh, I don't know, Didn't. Happen, you know, like, I just feel like this is such a common story, you know, like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'll leave my wife. Yeah, no worries. No worries. And then it just doesn't happen. And I I really feel for Carol in that instance because, yeah, she was obviously holding out hope that that would happen.

26:26 She'd upheld her end of the bargain. And these two, I mean, clearly she liked going out with him and doing those trips, and this was something that she was happy to do, whereas Robin wasn't interested in doing that stuff with. Yeah. With Russell, I kind of get to this point of going like, at that point in your life, I mean, they're both, what, 7473 years of age. So at that age, I'm kind of a little bit more of like you do you like you've got your life and your kids and your wife that you do love?

26:53 I think he genuinely loved Robin and he loved the life he had with her. Agree with that. And then but there's this other woman who has had this childhood long loving for all his life. They've got this interest together that they're happy to go and do. Although I did, I did read somewhere that Carol wasn't that into camping and bushmanship like Russell was. But because she loved spending time with him and that was kind of the only way that they could do it, she was happy to go along with it. Yeah.

27:21 Yeah. So I don't know that it was a shared interest, but for her it was motivated by the fact that she got to spend time with Russell. Yeah, yeah. Interesting. Yeah, isn't it? I don't know. So anyway, they've headed off down to the one in Get A Valley, and this is an area that Russell knew very, very well. He'd worked as a logger in the area in the past, and he'd also worked as a Rd. grader. So he'd actually made roads and paths and all of that stuff into the valley. Particular ones that he was travelling on this and in this area, yeah.

27:52 Yeah, he's done very well. Yeah. That's it. So it was. It was he was described as having a second to none knowledge of the area. They decided to head to Bucks Camp as well and they've set up their tent, They've driven in, set up their tent and they knew there was somebody else there was very obvious there's somebody else well. Because the other person that was there being obviously Greg, Greg Rylin, he had taken the spot that you wanted. Basically it had the, the immediate access to the, the, the Creek there and everything.

28:29 So which they sort of, I, I dare say when they're rocked up, they're kind of like, oh God damn it. That's what. We wanted, Oh well. So they've gone over a bit further from him, but not not terribly far away from each other though, so. I think they were still within within 50 metres. Yeah, yeah, that's exactly right. Yeah, a couple of days later, a man by the name of Andrew, Andrew Markhart was in the one in Ghetto Valley with his family. And he, he knew Bucks Camp, he'd been there before. And so he was with his family.

29:02 They decided to go for a look in and see what was going on around the around the way. And what he saw was a white Land Cruiser, single cab Ute which looked like it was burnt out. And he thought, oh, that's really strange. Like not something you'd obviously ever seen there before. There was no one around. And he just thought it was really odd. Anyway, he kind of moved on and they went and camped not far down the, I don't know, down the track somewhere at a different campsite that night. But it kind of got the better of him.

29:34 And the next morning he went back there and he. He found an esky which had been which was underneath the car and pulled that out and when he opened it, he realized there was fresh food in it. So I guess that kind of linked for him going this is this campsite is new. This has not been here for a long time. Sorry, you know, and someone is around like and it didn't just didn't add up for him what he was seeing in the campsite at. All He looked through the windows of the Land Cruiser as well, and he saw a wallet that was open.

30:06 He saw a handbag on the floor and he's like, oh, this is really weird. Like something's not quite right here. He also saw like burnt tent poles and lots of charring on the metal of the car. All very, very strange. So Oh yeah. And then also I think he saw like a burnt out gas cylinder as well, like a gas, a camping gas bottle. Inside the tent. Yeah, which? You don't cook inside a tent. Anyone who camps knows that. You don't ever do that. You. Don't put a gas bottle inside an enclosed space. No. So that was very unusual.

30:43 Yeah. But he, he basically was like, because there's no cell, you know, no mobile access out there whatsoever. Not a hell of a lot he can do at that point. He didn't have radio access so he had to wait until he got out of the area before he could contact anyone. He did take some photos, yes, at the time on his mobile phone, which was great, great. But he didn't leave the area from to the point where he was at mobile phone coverage for like a week. It was, yeah, It was extended period of time. Yeah, it was a while.

31:10 He didn't sort of go, oh, we need to leave today to report this. Like it was odd and they'll need to pass this information on to someone when we go. Yeah, yeah, basically, yeah. Because there was nothing else, I guess that went, oh, that's, you know, there's something somebody's in immediate danger. Yeah. He was sort of, I think he made an assumption that there was potentially a second vehicle who that had exited the people that from the camp. Yeah. That had like they'd. Been they'd been an incident in a.

31:37 Fire or something and they had to leave. Another vehicle has taken them out because they we'd like to go like 24 hours where no one's come back to this site. But it's clearly really recent that this has occurred. Like yeah, they're obviously safe because they're not here. So yeah, he kind of moved on from it going I don't know what the the go is here, but I will I'll report it. But yeah, not know what what that would do, Yeah. Yeah, so in the meantime the police had been contacted regarding a couple of missing people who were Russell and Carol.

32:12 Now the reason the first people to really raise the alarm were Russell was a a very astute ham radio enthusiast. If I was even more than an enthusiast, he was fully licensed and certified in using them, which is. I'm going to call it an enthusiast because what, what else are you? What are you using it for? He loved this thing. He loved it. He. Was so into. It and he had a group of cronies who would get on every night at 6:00 PM and have a chat. And if one of them was out camping because they were all sort of bushy type of people, they would check in, make sure they were okay.

32:50 Because if you don't have mobile phone coverage, you can still get a signal on your ham radio. Absolutely. And So what actually called the 1st contact with police was from one of these people in this group, in this ham radio group who realized that Russell actually hadn't been on for three days. Yeah, so he contacted was his name was Robin Ashland and he contacted Robin Hill, Russell's wife and said have you heard from him? Because he's not been on the the radio. Now this Robin Ashland, he knew about Carol Clay, too.

33:24 They had been on a camping trip together. So he was aware that there was things he probably couldn't say too, so he did. But he did contact Robin and said to her, have you heard from him? And when she said no and then assuming that he would have on the ham radio because what she she would actually TuneIn, she didn't have the license to communicate over the ham radio, but she could TuneIn each night and listen to him. So on the first night when he got to this campsite, it Bucks hit bucks campsite, she had listened.

33:50 Actually, usually we didn't listen to the whole conversation. She would just listen and go, oh, there he is, he's fine. Turn it off. He's not interested in you, in your shit, on that, whatever boys like. No one cares. But, yeah, she would listen to make sure he was safe. But she had noted, too, that he wasn't on the radio. And so when Robin Ashland contacted her and said he's not been on, she was, oh, this isn't right. And he said, I think you probably should write, like, contact the police because he's not been on the radio.

34:18 Maybe he's, you know, stuck somewhere. I thought he contacted the. No, no, Robin did. Yeah. Well, they're both named Robin, so maybe that's really. Confused. Yeah, maybe that's where I got confused. Yeah, Robin and Robin, Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, Robin Hill did raise the alarm on that end. Unbeknownst to her, they had also family members of Carol had raised the flag as well that she was missing. The two had yet to be, you know, like linked together at that point because it did take them a bit of time to get out to this campsite where they were two to be able to pinpoint.

34:48 Where it was I think from the first point. Yeah. Of like of raising the alarm and and issuing the missing persons sort of report yes, because they didn't know where they were exactly. And so the police were searching the Wanangatta Valley. But you've got to think contextually as well. This is exactly the exact same time that Melbourne was going into lockdown. So the police were involved as well massively. The police were involved in roadblocks and, you know, a lot of different public safety measures.

35:22 Yes, all of that. All of that was going on at the same time. So but when the police do get out to the campsite, what they find is a wallet of Russell's as well, but also of Carol Clay. So they were out there looking for Russell because they didn't with Carol Clay, they didn't really know even where to start looking at all. Like they actually didn't know where she was at all. Whereas getting out there and they were actually searching for Russell, finding his campsite, his car, his wallet, all those sorts of things, but also finding a wallet with Carol Clay's things, the call the police.

35:56 Then awkward had to ring Robin and say, do you know a woman by the name of Carol Clay? And which why would she be out here with him? So that was a bit of a eye opening moment for her. So obviously she's not only dealing with the fact that, yeah, your husband's missing. We found the campsite and it's burnt out and also his ex lover is here. Ex lover. They were never ex lovers but according to her. According to her, they were so, and at this point too, her three daughters with Russell had no idea who who Carol Clay was and what connection she was to to their dad.

36:34 So she had to explain to her daughter, their daughters, what's going on with Dad. Dad's been having this affair for many, many, many, many many years at this point. Now public. And I, I heard an interview with Carol Clay's daughter with regard to this. And she said at this time the police asked her to sign a media release to issue some information or basically do a public appeal for information, anything that might lead to the whereabouts of her mom and of Russell Hill. And she said at the time she said I would I would do anything to find my mom.

37:11 So of course I signed it, but she said I knew in doing so that it would expose my mom for something that she really wasn't at her core because Carol Clay was an incredibly upstanding member of society. She was the president of the CWA, the Country Women's Association, and she which had taken her all around the world in terms of she was a natural born leader. I think you look at photos of her, of her and you think, oh, yeah, you are a really lovely woman. Yeah. So put together, so put to just gorgeous.

37:50 And I feel like, you know, if it weren't for this indiscretion, which I'm sure she would have felt horrific about too. But then, you know, the heart wants what the heart wants.

38:04 I just think every other aspect of her life would, she would have hit the mark every single time. She just had that sort of aura about her and so her daughter was like I really didn't want to have to tarnish moms name by saying yes to this, but I also wouldn't have stopped it anything to find her so. But in that she wasn't the one having the affair technically at that point that's but she had but. She also knew Russell was married. So I mean, you still miss it. Absolutely said absolutely. So the other thing I guess that the police noted when they got to the campsite was not only what was there, but what was not there.

38:39 Yeah. And what was not there were their phones and a drone. So I think they'd asked Robin Hill, you know, what did he take with him and. What did he go there to do? What was he? Yeah, Why was he there? What was the motivation aside from having an affair with Cow? But. And his wife said, well, he loved flying drones, surveying the area. That was kind of his thing. It was part of a part of his hobby. And so the drone wasn't there and no Robin knew he'd taken it. And then obviously both of them had mobile phones as well, neither of which were found at the campsite.

39:17 So that really sparked interest in the police, and I guess that sort of led them down the path of looking to see, OK, well, let's find out what these mobile phones have actually been doing. Yeah, yeah. All this time and what they can see is that they travelled into the Wanangatta Valley, I think through Myrtle food. Yeah, that sounds about right. And at whatever point where everyone loses mobile phone reception, they lost reception. And then what they see is 3 days later, or two days later, two days later.

39:54 Yeah, two days later. Yeah, the phone, then Russell's phone actually then pings at Mount Hotham. Yeah. And they're like, oh, interesting. I wonder what this is all about. So they start, you know, looking down this path and what they ended up doing, which I think is an absolutely fuck. Well, actually, sorry, before they even get to this point. Just very quickly. They did all the normal missing person stuff, proof of life checks because I think once they found out that Carol and Russell were having an affair they thought have they staged their disappearance?

40:27 They had to eliminate the fact of, like, are these two, these two run off on their, like, of their own accord. Yeah, because people are allowed to do that. I mean, they make it. Legal to go missing? They don't want to be found. They don't have to be found. Yeah, exactly. So they had to determine whether or not this was something that they really needed to be putting their resources into, particularly at this time when they needed resources elsewhere, police as well. So that's really needed to narrow this down, like what exactly is going on here?

40:51 But very quickly, from all accounts of everyone they spoke to, whether they were having the affair or not, like that's just not in their personality that they were going to run off and disappear. Carol had grandchildren who she was very heavily involved in their lives. There's no way she would have left them. No way. Like, no way at all. Everyone they spoke to just adamantly was like, that is not something that that would be on the cards. Yeah, that's exactly. So they were very, police were very good at quickly realizing that, ruling that out.

41:19 Then the only other options left are that there's been that they've got lost somewhere, they've gone on a hike, say someones gotten injured. That didn't explain the camps. The. Camp, it doesn't explain that. So there's always that that goes with it. But could they just be lost? Could there have been a campfire? They've gone to get help and haven't been able to get it. Yeah. Whatever has happened, you know, like, so no foul play as such, but yeah, something naturally occurring or in that sense that they've disappeared and they need to find them in that vicinity.

41:48 Yeah. Or is this a matter of, yeah, a third party being involved and, or at least one other third, you know, party being involved in this and that there's foul play. So the third party you're, I think alluding to is the button man. I went way down that rabbit. Oh, tell me everything. Tell me everything. So for those who don't know for a very long time, and I've known about this. And oh look, the button man is myth. Legend. Yeah, whatever you wanna call. Everyone knows everyone in Victoria. If you've ever been camping in the high country, you know of the button you.

42:27 Know the button man and so it's just. And to be honest, up until this point, I was under the impression that part of me was he wasn't real, right? Oh, I like, I know, I know he's real. Oh, I know. Now, at the time I've always been told he was real. But there was part of me going, do you know what? He's probably not. And people are just trying to scare the shit out of me when I've gone clearing and stuff, right? It's like the drop. So yes, exactly. I wasn't fully convinced that this was a real person.

42:52 But obviously with this occurring and being on lockdown, I was like, I'm gonna solve this. It's fully the Button Man. So yeah, I went into a total rabbit hole of the Button man. So the Button man is now there are different opinions of Button man. There are very much people who say that he is a Mansfield local, enjoys his alone time and goes out into the high country. He's incredibly skilled out in the in the wilderness, but he's harmless. There are other people who have different opinions of him and have had different experiences of him and they would call him a recluse and a full blown up job.

43:35 Now, the reason he's called the button man is that he has antlers from deers that he has, you know, killed and in hunting, Yep, that he has made buttons out of, and he wears these buttons tick. So. But there's all these stories of people coming across him in the wilderness. Now, whether he does this out of, I don't know, a bit of joy for himself or what, but he is so good at being out in the wilderness that you won't know he's there and he will appear. So people have been out hunting literally, you know, in the quiet, trying to, you know, get everyone.

44:14 No one's making noise, laying down ready to shoot a deer and all of a sudden the button man will appear, creep me out. Something even worse to that, I think there's a particular guy who has experienced the button man. Well, we assume in that he was out there doing photography and around, it was actually around near Bucks Camp as well where this occurred, that he was taking incredibly spectacular photos night after night, day after day sort of thing. And spending time out there. And when he got home and this is back, you know, before, I guess, digital photography that he was like, you know, looking at these photos that he'd taken.

44:53 He got back home again and started to print his photos, you know, in the lab and develop them. Yep. And he found a photo of himself sleeping in his tent. Oh, isn't that so creepy? Oh. That makes my skin crawl. I. Know do you imagine finding that on your? Camera. Oh, it would. I would never go camp. I would never go there on like done. Never again. Like clearly as he has come into his tent, Yep, never woken him. And when you're out camping, you're kind of. You're a tube to it. Yeah, you're a don't.

45:22 It's no, no deep. Sleep. Oh, you don't get deep sleep on one can. No, God, there's always something. There's a bug. There's a, you know, dampness on your tent. There's something that's going to keep you a bit awake overnight. No. He took a photo of him inside his tent. So he is a very interesting man and very creepy. And now the simple fact is that in the area and particularly close to this event, there were two other people who had gone missing. Yeah, Now a number of people believe that the button man is actually the cause for other people's deaths.

45:56 Now, there is also people, IE the police, who have interviewed the button man. And I'm now aware the police have a very good relationship with this person. Yeah. No one knows his name. Yeah. No, it's not known. Not known. No, he's a 70 year old man. But it's actually the way he was described to me by someone was that he's a 7 year old man who moves like a 35 year old. We've heard that too. Blows my mind. I mean, although 35, you know, I can hurt too. 35 year old. OK. Yeah. So he's incredible. Yeah.

46:29 It just unbelievable. So the police, they know exactly who he is. They've have pulled him on a number of occasions to have conversations with him about this. They have. They pulled him in at this point. They did interview him about Russell Hill and Carol Clay and cleared him. Yeah. Now that didn't really maybe come out in the public enough because. No. I was way down that. Oh, right. You're like not he's done it. Convict him. Lock him away. I was. Definitely. Oh, it's definitely button man. It's definitely, yeah 'cause oh, it just blows my mind.

47:01 And he, so he just lives out there basically. He, he will wander into town, like into Mansfield or and get supplies every now and then, but he just lives off the land. Land, yeah, out in the high country. And I think he's quite transient. It's not like he's got a, you know, a solid base or he's. Got a particularly he does actually he has got a camp where he basically calls home. And is that? Does that move around though? No, not really. He's got a particular spot. You won't be able to find it. Yeah, but he has a particular spot and it's it's elevated.

47:29 So he, where he has, he can fully see like the entire valley almost. And from where he is. OK, And that's where he will be like, oh, I can see there's this campfire, you know, 3 kilometers away that way and another 110 kilometers, kilometers. Oh God, how many lines of I have it? Is you've got a lot too what's going on? I mean bumper paws. So it's. Whatever else, yeah, 10 kilometers away. You know, that's why he will then just appear on these people out of nowhere. He's he's, oh, on top of all of it that goes.

47:59 On that is so creepy yeah, yeah, the police did other proof of life checks as well to see that Russell and Carol hadn't potentially run off together. But they hadn't used their bank accounts. They hadn't used like it's not like they used their Medicare cards. There's nothing to suggest that they had run away and were anywhere to be found, or anywhere in terms of having potentially staged their own disappearances anyway. No. So they checked. There are a number of points where you enter the area where there are cameras.

48:34 So from these cameras, they could see who had exited the the national parking area over those days. Yeah. And there were actually 12 vehicles that they had they could get on these cameras. So are you talking now about the Mount Hotham cameras? Multiple cameras from all sorts of exit points, OK, over the course of the day that they that they expected them to have left the the area, yeah number of those 12 vehicles that they had. So they were, they went and followed up all of those, every single one of them, because they obviously had camera of the number of plates.

49:09 Now, a lot of these people voluntarily knowing what had happened in the area, voluntarily went to the police and said, you know, we were in the area, we didn't see anything, you know, to let them know others the police did have to go and find and they'd be Oh yeah, yeah, I was out that way, didn't know anything about it. Lockdowns, you know, and they cleared all of them bar 1, bar 1. So there was a particular one that they they did, they go out and speak to him, being that of Gregory Lynn. They did go and speak to him.

49:40 And from the reaction they got from him, they were like, thank you, Sir. We've got all the information we need. Yes. Exit. However, there was some interesting things that they had from that. And they did leave that with him, believing that he, they had cleared him by speaking to him. Yep. But they fully had not. Yeah. So what they were able to put together after sort of seeing these 12 vehicles, and they were then like, all right, well, let's see what phones were pinging off the towers that were closest to those points where we have photos for these vehicles.

50:19 And so they were able to then get a match for Gregory Lin's vehicle, which was a Land Cruiser that was a dark blue, I believe. And Russell Hill's phone pinged off the cell tower there at the same time that they could see Greg Lynn's car going through that gantry. So interesting. And this, you know, I guess coupled with this interview, this home sort of thing that they did when they went to Gregory Lynn's house, they were like, oh, this is all very curious. What one of the sergeants noticed was that there was a Nissan Patrol parked in a side street, new Gregory Lynn's house that matched the description of what they'd seen in that photo.

51:12 Same number plate, but it was a different color. It was now beige, tan, beige color, tanny beige color. Interestingly, when he bought that car in 1990s, it was white. Yes, and then it was dark blue and now it's beige or tan. Tan. Yeah, More tan. Mm. Hmm. We can go back to that if you like later. Yeah, we absolutely will. We absolutely will. So the police have been trying to find out. OK, now what? How do we go about drawing him out? They had actually put some surveillance in his house and covert surveillance.

51:46 So they had listening devices in his house and in his car. Yeah. And what they knew was that every Sunday night, Greg and his wife, Melanie, Melanie would watch 60 Minutes. They knew it. It was every week they would watch it. Yeah. And So what they decided to do was use the program to try and plant some. Try and get. Information and guess about to talk about it yeah yeah yeah and what they did was they kind of told the story up until this point where they're like we've got this dark blueness and patrol here's an image of the car but we don't know who it belongs to and they really kind.

52:27 Of really ham it up a little bit in terms of the we know we've got it, got this guy. If we just find out who it is that owns this vehicle, yeah, You know, it's really like the cops are like, terrible act. Yeah, and they're like, and we're looking for a dark blue car. No wink wink nudge nudge. Yeah, and in the listening device, Yeah, the police go back while the while the 60 Minutes episode's playing and Greg's wife Melanie says to him. She laughs about it. That sounds like your car. That looks. Like your car?

52:56 Exactly like your car. Like that's and he like he snaps. Like, yeah. Oh, that's it's. That's not even funny. Yeah, he actually responds with Yeah, that's not even funny. Yeah, nothing like mine. Shuts her down. Yeah. In this time as well so he's then seen this photo this image on 60 minutes and he still had this point had a canopy like a side canopy on his on the 4 wheel drive even though he'd painted it he hadn't taken the canopy off he took that off immediately immediately that's. They've got video footage of him removing that off the side of it.

53:29 Yeah, yeah. It's interesting to note too, that obviously they had this listening device in the house and now this isn't illegal. But what was noted as what was being recorded because they have like 5000 different recordings of what of it seems they're a huge amount. But what was noted by the police officer who we had to listen to it all, it was and you see through his notes repeated numerous times, narcissistic, racist, misogynistic, like this theme of the type of personality he was in his own home was very interesting.

54:03 Towards his own. Wife. Yeah. Yeah. Gross. Absolutely disgusting, absolutely disgusting, but it really shows the type of person that he that he is. Definitely. So putting all this together, not too long after the night, the 60 minutes episode, they are able to go in and arrest him. Well they bring him in and he spends 4 days talking to police in interviews. Well I shouldn't say talking to police, I believe it was the first two days of it. Basically his lawyer. Weirdly enough he'd contacted a lawyer and spoke to him over the phone, but the lawyer didn't come in, which is probably COVID.

54:40 I I. Maybe that actually that's. Fair. Now when I think about it, it's weird. Yeah, his, but his lawyer had said to him, don't answer any of their questions, right. So because in the trial this does come up a little bit that the judge does say that the police shouldn't have maybe pushed so hard that because he was following his instructions from his lawyer and then he broke that and did speak eventually. Because he actually, he actually even says in the recording, it's like against the advice of my lawyer, I'm going to say I'm going to tell you exactly what happened.

55:09 Yeah, one of the quotes from his his interview, then I find this. I can't handle this. So his comment was, look, the assumption is that I'm the villain. In fact, Oh, I think I'm the victim of all this, you fucking sack of shit. He goes, it was wrong of me to hide those bodies like that. I should have just gone straight to police. I didn't want to do it. It was horrific. It was a it was a horrific thing I had to do. I was sick the first couple of times. I just wanted to go, wanted it to go away and just to move on and never think about it again.

55:45 Because you can do that when you're that way inclined. Yeah, gross. Yeah. So he ended up in his interviews admitting that he he knew he was part of it and he was there, but that it was not his fault. Yeah, he's. Do you want me to go through his account? Of what? Yeah, I think done that night. Yeah, yeah. So he said he was there to hunt deer. He was at Bucks camp to hunt deer in the Bush, and Russell Hill and Carol Clay had set up their camp, which he wasn't all that happy about. He wanted to be there on his own as well, so that kind of pissed him.

56:25 Off. That's what I mean. Everyone wants to be on their own and then you don't get it so. But tough shit. It's a free camp. Like, just keep to yourself. It's fine. Yeah, Apparently they'd had a conversation the first night and it was all sort of like, hey, how's it going? Everything was fairly amicable. What he then says is that later in the evening of the. I think this was of the second day Russell had his drone out and it was buzzing over Gregory Lynn's head. Now, I think it's worth noting here too, we only know one person's account of this, so we're only going at this from Gregory Lynn's perspective because Carol and Russell can't tell their story.

57:05 Yeah. OK, so Greg was really agitated by the fact that Russell was flying this drone overhead. And he said, you know, you're not allowed to do that. It's within whatever meanings of a person. And he also admitted he goes. I didn't want him catching like, footage of me because I had weapons and they weren't necessarily stored in a correct manner. Yeah, so they were all. Loaded or something. Being a pilot, if he had a conviction of at all in terms of like not storing weapons correctly as they are supposed to be by law, he would lose his pilot's licence.

57:40 Well then fucking store them by law, you dipshit. So sorry, he he basically was inferring that what Russell was doing was purposely trying to get photos of him doing the wrong thing because he the other thing was that, or maybe it was around the fact he was hunting too close to the campsite too. Yeah. So. But the inference from from Greg was that he was in fear that he was getting captured on camera by this drone doing something he probably shouldn't have been. And so he wasn't happy about it. Was asking him to not do that and to not have the drone near him.

58:14 Yeah. Yeah. So he kind of retreated back. They had a bit of an argument about the drone, Greg says. He kind of retreated, had his dinner back at his little campsite, but was really brooding over this argument. Like, really? And crazy, his radio, his stereo up on his car to piss them off, to piss them off. And because, I mean, when you're out camping like that, it's pitch black. Like by very early, yes. So at nine, 10:00 at night, oh, he's in his campsite 50 meters away, absolutely pounding out the music as loud as you possibly can.

58:47 Russell and Carol are trying to have snuggle time, you know? And you know, I mean, they're elderly, they're camping. You'd be in bed by freaking 8:30, I reckon. Like, you know, So we're by 910 o'clock him pumping out that music. They were not happy with that. I can, absolutely. Steven Steven admits that he chose the most annoying music he could find. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. No boom chick. Wow, wow, there. They did. That attack happened in Barry way. So I guess what happened after this is really what's in contention.

59:27 Yeah. And that is the subject of the trial, because what Gregory Lynn says happened is that there was a dispute and it escalated. And he says that there was a scuffle, so he had a gun. He. Claims that Russell went to his vehicle yeah. And took out his shotgun, yeah. To which he then approached Russell to like, try and get this gun off of him. Like that's mine now we should say here. Russell had a real dislike of guns. Yes, he had. I believe it was a cousin was killed in a hunty accident not that long ago, that he was very opposed to guns.

1:00:14 Yeah. So his family all say he'd be shocked if he picked up a gun. He had a gun at home that was given to him by a relative that he just, he didn't even like it being around because he just didn't like weapons and what they did. So for him to go and grab someone else's weapon and load it, which is what Russell, what Greg accuses him of. But. Wasn't it? Well, so he reckons that Russell loaded it and then was, you know, threatening him with it. So then he went over and struggled with him, and in that struggle he shot off a round in that one shot into the into the sky.

1:00:53 Yep, Now this is where. Gregory Ling says it was like a. Warning shot. A warning shot? Yeah, he tries. He wrestles with him with the weapon, and the weapon goes off randomly. Yeah, and shoots Carol, who's who's like hiding behind the vehicle, but. She was hiding behind the vehicle, kind of behind, mostly behind the review the side mirror. Yeah, so apparently it hit her, killed her. Through the side mirror. Then weirdly enough, he then claims that it seems to be. I couldn't really get this bit where there seems to be then that that happens and it's, you know, Russell is obviously beside himself.

1:01:33 What's, you know, what's going on here? And there seems to be a a stoppage of the the wrestling over the weapon. And then Russell picks up again. He puts it on Russell that he picks up a kitchen knife and is then approaching Greg with that, to which they again have another tussle. And somehow Russell falls on his own knife and stabs himself in the chest. Now. So many issues, so many that but. Look, anyway, so it's worth, I think we need to say Carol was shot in the head. Yeah. And. Well, that's what he claims because, well.

1:02:13 That's true. We really claims. Yeah. And there's evidence that can support that. There's no. But no definitive answer to that. There's no way to definitively know that, although all signs point to that probably being probably. Being exactly. But no one's gonna sit there and go yes, that's what occurred. Like scientists are not willing to go that far. Yeah. But they were willing to say that that's that is there is some evidence that would support that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh. Man, but in terms of crazy.

1:02:45 Of Russell's death now because of what Greg does next is means that we don't have any answers for Russell. None. So what he in his words, he then panicked, which the cops then questioned vehemently because he's a a pilot. Yep. One of the key characteristics of a pilot is that they are cool, calm and collected in a crisis. They. Are trained. Fully trained to be that way. And we're talking a very senior pilot, a very experienced pilot, commercial pilot. Not as if there were witnesses to this at this exact moment in time.

1:03:22 So he's got time to breathe, but these, both these people, According to him, died immediately. Yep. So he's then left there with two dead bodies. Yep. And his decision at that point in time was to load those bodies onto his trailer. He pulled equipment, as we said, into the tent and lit the campsite on fire. He used a little bit of petrol from his car as an accelerant, yeah. Lit that to the point where as we said, there was a portaloo kind of tent in the background that didn't get any of the fire that was still standing.

1:04:00 But the rest of the campsite was burnt to the ground, metal bars to nothing. The side of his vehicle was also burnt. So pretty decent fire that was that was lit there. So he then with these two bodies in the trailer of his car and this is where he got picked up in terms of the cameras. So he went to exit because he had an idea of where he was going to dump the bodies, but he couldn't get out through where he expected to be able to get out. So he had to to like a 20 or 30 point turn to get turned back around with his trailer on the back of his car.

1:04:35 We've been a freaking nightmare. Yeah. So he's had to turn back around, which has then thrown his plan all together and he's then. So then he's dumped the bodies where he didn't really want to, which was up near Mount Hotham, which is obviously when they've got a ping off of the mobile phone tower. So that he's dumped the bodies up there with every intention that he's like, I can't leave them here, but I've got no other choice. I'll need to do that and I'll come back later and sort it out. Yeah, he's left.

1:05:01 And that's when it's gone into lockdown. Yeah. So he couldn't get back there to do anything about it for quite some time. So yeah, I think it was no late, late in May ish. I think we came out of lockdown. At the first instance. Yeah, good. 7-8 weeks potentially or something like that that we're in lockdown for. God kill me. So he did go back the first time. And at that point he did move the bodies again. Yeah, but but what he was, he was quite surprised when he got there. There had been no animal attack on the bodies, he said, or anything.

1:05:31 They were quite. And because I was getting into the cooler months as well, they hadn't decomposed as much as he thought they would have. Yeah, but so again, he did move them. Yep. He admits all this. He again exited, went out. He did return a second time and at this time he decided to burn the bodies. And he didn't just burn the bodies. So when he decided to do this, he apparently burnt them for 12 hours. Absolutely. And then he would, he crushed up the remains, which meant that that's where we're saying there is no evidence as to how Russell died.

1:06:09 We couldn't tell you from scientific evidence whether he was stabbed, shot, strangled. There is no cause of death that we can have for his body. The most that was able to be found in the trial that they talked about was for Carol. There were some craning fragments that they could say had come in contact with metal. Therefore, that potentially could mean it was. A bullet, Yeah. That you know, but even that they wouldn't even draw that as a definitive conclusion. No, there was no like strong forensic evidence of.

1:06:42 That yeah, but touched had you know come in contact with metal therefore potentially could be that could be the bullet that has maybe touched there so. You know this second site, they found 2000 fragments belonging to Carol and Russell. Yeah, tiny little. Fragments because they were able to do amazing stuff like in terms of just like finding DNA to find out what was there and what wasn't. Now we should say too, this wasn't found until after they arrested yes, Greg was after they arrested him. So there was I mean, I think it could have been actually a couple of months later.

1:07:20 I've probably got the dates here I feel. Like, it was. Yeah, it was. It was a little while later. Yeah. Just I'm going to read a quote from Gregory Lynn about why he did what he did. I panicked and I thought, you know, that's my shotgun. There's one person dead and he's dead as well. Now I'm going to be found guilty of this. You've got an interesting language to use. I found that fascinating. I just had to write that down like that's. Very. I'm going to be found guilty of this like I am. Guilty.

1:07:51 Not not, you know, oh, Jesus, like then I think I did this or. Innocent, wouldn't you go? If this had happened the way he said it happened, you'd go to the police, you'd be like, fucking hell, this just happened. Like I know you know it is what? Who cares about you? You know you've got to. I don't know. Why didn't he go to the police straight away? Because he's a psychopath, obviously. And there's evidence from that, yeah. I mean, he's a fucking. Should we get into here who he was? Prior, let's do it.

1:08:21 Let's do it. Let's do that. So there's a number of things that link him to a number of incidents. Yep. So as we're saying earlier, his vehicle that he he owned, he bought that back in 1990s, mid 1990s. 9494 was it? Yeah. And when he purchased it, it was the colour white. Yep, until he took a trip out into the I want to say it was to Central Australia. Yes, it was, yeah. He returned from Central Australia and turned it blue. Why? Why, why, why? Why? Because what's very interesting then is that this incident occurs and he's the first thing he one of the first things he does is repaint his vehicle tan.

1:09:10 Now, I just think that that's obviously something he's done previously. Why would you not do like, Yeah, sorry, yeah, just red flag #1. Oh fucking Earth. And yeah, that's right, past past behaviour, yeah, has dictated his future behaviour. So what has actually happened in the past to lead to the first colour change? Yep, Yep, totally keep so. He's also so he was just said he had an ex-wife. His ex-wife was Lisa. Now Lisa and him had were married and they had a couple of kids. Now it was very known that it was an abusive relationship.

1:09:47 There are a number of incidences where he actually, one incident was absolutely horrific where he had actually hog tied her and left her out in the, the cold and hosed her down. It was in like the middle of like winter, hosed her down and then left her outside for at least 20 minutes. And the so the police were called. And so this is all like on record. This occurred. His statement to the police was actually was that he, he, he admitted that that was bizarre behaviour for him to have done that to her.

1:10:19 Oh my God, now piece of shit. In 1999, Lisa was found again on her lawn completely. She was dead, but her blood alcohol level was .2. Yep. She also had sleeping pills in her system. She was not known to be a drinker. She would have a glass of wine, but she was not known to be a heavy drinker. There's a lot. Of difference between a glass of wine and a point. 2 is a concentration of. Alcohol. That's a lot. That's four times the legal limit. You're. You're real off your head. You're drunk, Yeah. You're drunk.

1:10:56 Drunk. Yeah. That's, yeah. That's not a glass of wine or two. That's not even a, that's more than a bottle. Yeah. Like sort of situation. That's not. Yeah. So. Yeah. So she was, it was found at the time to be a suicide and there was a coronial inquest into it at the time and there wasn't found to be a third party involvement. However, this is being looked at again and as being reopened, the police are looking into it more. Many people even at the time have put in have said, had state statements taken that really indicate that he was.

1:11:35 Involved, and this was including neighbors who'd witnessed like, some absolutely horrific acts of violence against Lisa. Yeah, let's see what comes of that, I guess. There's another one. Yeah, go on. So now Lisa had very good friends that they lived around the corner from them at the time and they they geared in family. There was a lady by the name of Oh my goodness. So Annie sorry Annie and husband was Jacques. Now they lived on Zigzag Rd. I love that great name of the road. Now they were found as it was found to at the time be labeled a murder suicide in March of 2010.

1:12:17 Now the in their house, it was found that there they had three dogs that were found shot and now they treated those dogs like their own children, like they were their children. They so they were shot. Annie had been shot and in her bed and Jacques was found with the shotgun holding a shotgun and shot and as if he'd shot himself. OK, now this was not something that anyone in the area would expect of this family. They were considered the most loved up couple. They were loved by everyone. During that day that they were found, they were out and about walking their dogs, they had had phone calls with friends, they had been at a cafe out.

1:13:13 They had done their normal day things, nothing indicating that you would be going home to a murder suicide. Oh, sorry. And they also burnt the house down. Yeah, the house was. Also down. That's what I find very interesting about this. So again, another little element. Evidence to be disposed of. Now from what police have found that in 2000 and 7 Greg Lynn returned from he was probably that was it with Guitar Airlines and so he returned to Australia in 2007. So he was definitely in Melbourne in back in the area.

1:13:52 We go back to when Lisa was alive in 99 and then she was very good friends with this family. There have been rumours that Greg was not happy with them and that they potentially believed that that he. Murdered Lisa. I think they had made statements to that effect, yeah. So was there a grudge? Did he do something? Because the other interesting fact of this is that Jacques didn't own a gun. Jacques had never touched a gun, had no experience with guns whatsoever. And a shotgun's a very interesting choice of weapon anyway for a suicide.

1:14:34 Yeah, there was. This gun has no connection to him whatsoever. That no one can prove where this gun appeared from. Yeah, sounds a little soft. Doesn't it? Yeah. So and Greg Lynn's connected to them too. Yeah, and all of the evidence was burnt really like anything. Yet again, there were no. Fingerprints that were able to be obtained from the scene? Nope. You know, they couldn't get fingerprints off the off the gun or anything like that, Jack. 'S fingerprints were on the gun, but he was held holding it like he was found holding it.

1:15:09 It was kind of like. On him. Yeah, OK. Greg is an incredibly intriguing character. Yeah. I I missed all this side of him when this happened. I was too involved in the button man. Oh God. Yes, yes, it's it's a very curious position and obviously we can't say one way or another. And I don't think we're especially maybe for Lisa's death, something may come of it, I think, in this. They're reopening both cases. They are doing both, are they? OK? So they must have evidence to be able to do that, then new and compelling evidence to be able to do that.

1:15:51 Yeah. OK, well let's watch this. Base, I don't believe that there was a coronial inquest for the first. I don't think there's been one for the Zigzag Rd. family. I think there there definitely was for Lisa, yes, but I believe they're gonna look do that again. Right. So also they're reopening, they're doing another coronial link, I think so. OK, All right, well, let's see what comes of. That yeah, see if that comes about and what goes on with that I. Mean given given where Gregory Lean is now, I feel like that's probably enough evidence to support opening and yeah, and that the link.

1:16:19 Obviously, none of this was brought up in trial. No, police were fully aware of all this information at the time. Yeah, But none of that was obviously admissible in court. Yeah, yeah, Oh my God. But yes, so we get to the trial and the trial, it starts off interesting the trial even like because they go, they obviously they have the jury already to go. Yeah, on day one. And we still, we don't know what happened here. No, but day one is meant to get started. And the next thing you know, the judge is dismissing that jury and saying we're going to have to get a whole new jury brought in.

1:16:54 So that was a rocky start to it all. Anyway, yeah, as I say, we don't know what happened, but something has occurred that they have decided. And the judge said this is no one's fault. It's just something that happens, one of these things, And they've just dismissed the entire jury. I'd be so pissed off if I was on that jury. Oh, I know this juicy one, and they're not. I mean, although. It was a it was a long, long trial. Yeah, true. Yes. So they end up having to get another lot of jury in and I was in a few spares and they get the trial underway and the trial went for about 6 weeks.

1:17:29 I think it was. It was. And it, like I was gonna say it didn't raise obviously all his previous things, but we went, he went through all his story. He got on the stand, which again, oh, oh. Absolutely like the narcissistic traits of this man. It it just, and, and I think so after the trial, they also released all of his police interviews and stuff to the public, which were very, very telling. And I think they absolutely nailed the fact the way he speaks. But even at the trial, nothing was about the impact of what he did on Russell or or not even what he did if he's claiming innocence, right?

1:18:12 He never even acknowledged the fact that Russell and Carol's family had lost something in this, in this whatever he thinks happened or whatever he says happened. He didn't even acknowledge that. No, like he's so fucking callous and all he cared about was himself. All he cared about was how he was seen in this instance. He wanted to uphold this view that he thought the public had of him in that, you know, he's this amazing, you know, he's a pilot and. He's, well, we should just say in his own home.

1:18:46 His wife called him Captain, Yeah, that was and family called him Wolf Creek though. Yeah, behind his back. And I don't know if that's about how he looked. You know, he was more behavioural than. Yeah. Oh, for sure. Oh, for sure. Yeah. Wife calling him Captain. That just gave me the heebie. Totally gave me the the. Ick, yeah. There's that's really. Fucked up. It's so fucked. Up. It is fucked up. I mean, maybe the bedroom, but I mean really like. Only if he had his pilot hat on at the time.

1:19:24 Oh God, yes, yeah, he's just. Yeah, really just. Not right. During the trial, he, so I think they, the trial was like 5 weeks of evidence and then it was a week of jury deliberations. Yeah, a week or so of jury deliberations. And during that week, he sat in that courtroom expressionless. Yes. Calm, very composed and he was taking prolific amounts of notes. There's the pilot. Yeah, I can. You know, I'm at that in that sense, yeah. I don't know, people who work in the airline industry who have said to me that, look, if a pilot's not neurodivergent, I'd be concerned.

1:20:05 Like I'd prefer, I'd prefer a neurodivergent pilot. That who someone who is very, you know, meticulous in every way and can be that. Yeah, calm in in those sorts of yeah, environments. Yeah, Sorry, but I, I don't know that that's what was going on for him, to be honest, I think it's not neurodivergence. No, no.

1:20:32 There were 49 witnesses that were called to the stand. For the prosecution, yeah. For the defence, there was only one being him. Well. Who else would they have called? There was no one else for them to. Call. Yeah, and I really am intrigued. You'll never know the answer to this, but I'd love to know. I mean, they generally say that no defence lawyer would expect their client to get on the stand. And usually it is basically a, a situation where you know, that they, they have to, legally they have to give their client the opportunity to and say that is something you can do.

1:21:03 We advise that you don't though, you know, it's usually the line. And I really want to know how far that went in that conversation. I bet you 1,000,000 bucks they were like do not get up there. Do not get up there. And we're like, no, I've got to tell my story, people. If I get up there and tell people, they will believe, believe me. They will believe me because I'm using. Yep. Just ask me, yeah. I'm way smarter than all of. Them. I'm better than everyone. They will believe me because I am. I'm better than them.

1:21:31 I'm smarter than them. Well. So on June 25th the jury returned their verdict, which was a very interesting verdict. It was a split verdict, which is very unusual, so he found that. In a case like this, it's really tough. It's a tricky one. Yeah. And they So what they actually found, they found him guilty of the murder of Carol. Yep. Which saying, and his version of events obviously is saying like he killed her with the shotgun went off and that they're saying basically saying that no, he's at fault there.

1:22:08 He did cold bloodedly kill her, right? Shot her. We don't believe his story, but we believe that you killed her. However, they found him not guilty of the count of murdering Russell Hill. Now the reasoning and you, you don't know the reasoning from the jury's perspective, but what we can gather is what the reasoning could be of their with this decision is that because there was no evidence of how Russell Hill died, there's therefore an element of doubt that comes over this of how he died and what, what do we make what, how has he murdered him?

1:22:47 We don't know. So therefore how can we convict him of murder when we don't even know whether the knife is what killed him or whether he was shot or whether he was strangled or what went on? We don't know. So therefore they've gone with a not guilty on that one. My thinking though is why couldn't they have got him on a man's or? Even tampering of evidence because. Wow, yeah. He, I mean he fully admits. That. To the fact that he moved the bodies twice, that he burnt they burnt the crushed them up.

1:23:20 And he even says it's because I wanted to destroy evidence. I wanted to distance myself from this as much as I could, and I did get. Him on that? But they he didn't, he wasn't, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know whether they were like, well, let's go for top end. We're going for a double murder conviction here, but. See, there was not enough evidence for that and because of what he did, I totally. Understand, I, I really, really feel for Russell Hill. Oh, same. Absolutely. Because, I mean, I guess we can say what we believe.

1:23:50 I think absolutely he should have been convicted of both. Murders 100%. But I feel. But I don't understand where the jury came from. I. I That's right. I feel like the jury probably made the right call in the instructions they were given. Because the other thing that's worth noting here is that the instructions to the jury from the judge went for nearly a day. Yeah, because there was so much for this jury to consider. And the judge, I mean, the law sets the bar very, very high. But the judge made that so known to the jury that in order to convict him of both of these murders, these are the parameters that you have to make.

1:24:28 These are the the barriers that you have to go overcome. And they are high and they should be high. That is, you know, it needs to be proof beyond a reasonable doubt. And in terms of Russell's murder or Russell's death, I actually can't understand why the jury came back with what they did. Yeah, I, I'm absolutely, I do completely agree. But yeah, I just, I'm frustrated that there weren't other charges alongside this. I agree with that. Why didn't they? Because at the end of the day, all he got was 32 years with 24 years non parole.

1:25:04 Yeah. So I mean, at the top end of what he's going to receive for this, he's, I mean, look, he's he's what, 57 when he went in. So I mean, he'll be 80 in his 80s, yeah, at that point. So look, he's still got some life maybe that he's like, you know, going to live potentially where I'd like to just make sure he's in there forever. I don't know that he'll get parole, but in there forever. Well, but then there's seek, OK, so there's, there is an appeal that's been lodged. Now we don't know the outcome of that appeal.

1:25:31 That appeal is actually being the. So the leave for appeal hearing is being heard on the 31st of October this year. So at this leave hearing is where they'll decide whether or not the arguments that have been put forward for the appeal are in are strong enough to justify a full appeal hearing. So we're still not even there yet in terms of hearing a full appeal hearing. So he's appealing the sentence. Yes, sentence, not the conviction. And because at the end of the day, this is what shifts me a little bit.

1:26:01 So he because he's been now acquitted of Russell Hill's murder double jeopardy laws being that he is can't be tried that again. So that's that's out the question. So the only outcomes that can come from this is that the conviction and the and the the sentencing is upheld. Yeah. The others being that there could be a reduction or a very or a variance of some sort in the sentencing OK or could be a quashed conviction and then ordered a retrial, but that would be only a retrial. Of Carol of. Carol, not a Russell.

1:26:38 Oh fucking hell. So I don't think you'd want to risk that. No, but I mean, but they have actually put forward some fairly valid points in their. Appeal such as? OK. So the first one being that it's a procedural unfairness and it was a failure to allow Lynn to respond to the Crown attacks because during the a closing statement, the prosecution actually accused Russell of of changing his story and put forward something that they hadn't brought up earlier. So he was unable to respond to that and rebut it.

1:27:13 Yeah. Like, I mean, and you can't argue that. I I mean, I can see that it's actually a valid point. Yeah, decades. The other one is a misconduct on the era of Ballistics and the forensic evidence. So they're sort of stating that basically that the. Is this the Ballistics evidence? Of with the bullet for Carol, Yeah, OK. And saying that, where's the real evidence that that's even a bullet? And and that's the thing, I've heard them, I've heard discussed and I think there was a very recent media article about it where they had a forensic experts looking at it.

1:27:50 And they basically said, yeah, there is absolutely no way we could get solid ballistic evidence from that. Because the tiny little micro marks or micro signatures of a bullet that forensics can look at, say, if a bullet's gone into flesh that they can then look at is one thing, but all of that would have been lost in the burning of that bone. All of those fine little details, yes, they might be able to tell that a bullet has passed through a fragment of bone that's been burnt, but they wouldn't be able to say that the bullet came from this gun or that it was this calibre or any of that because there's, there's too much heat damage to that.

1:28:32 Yeah, piece of organic material. Yeah. OK. Yeah. And the other one is in regards to basically the instructions they were given. There's the jury. What? What's the? Conjecture. Yeah, the conjecture there is around the fact that they feel that they reached a guilty verdict by following legal impermissible inferences or by relying on flawed logic or speculation. OK, So they're saying that in particular the tension point is around Lynn was acquitted of of Russell Hill's murder but convicted of Carol's.

1:29:09 So the defence argues that the logical consistency would demand scrutiny. If the jury accepted some version of events for one death, how did they reject it for the other without felicious? Reasoning, but because there was less evidence like I, I get that. I also kind of get that from that perspective to the vote. Uh huh, unfortunately. This is where I feel like legally they're gonna wind this around and I, I really feel there's gonna be a reduction in this sentence. That's my prediction, I really do.

1:29:38 Feel. But then do you then hope that maybe some further charges are going to be brought against him for previous indiscretions that we've discussed? Let's hope so. That's what I'm really hoping that because I actually, I'm not ruling out here from what I can read here of the what the defence are putting forward for the appeal. Yeah, I wouldn't put out the question that he could be. Don't say it. Acquitted. Don't say it. Are you fucking kidding me? Murder. I can see where that could be brought. Yeah.

1:30:11 Oh my God. Yeah, Oh. My God. So, yeah, I really hope that they then follow up other. I think in that case they've got to bring on charges for moving the bodies. Yeah. And and those things. Oh, they would have to. Surely they. Can they would have it up their sleeve? I mean, they've got the video, they've got the police. He's admitted to it. Yeah. He's like, admitted to doing that. And he says why he did. It but then I mean for that, what's he going to get six years? Probably time served. Yeah, time served.

1:30:45 Oh. My. God, so I hope that then I can get him on. Maybe Lisa, maybe the Geeden family and whoever died in Central Australia when he changed his car in the 90s. He's he could be a full blown serial killer. Oh. My God. Allegedly. Allegedly. Got to keep that in there, don't we? This this case blows my mind. It was such an intriguing case to follow at the time. I thought I the button man. I was there and then I was researching. I went fuck. There's a whole other side to this that I did not know. Yeah, turns out, turns out.

1:31:27 Man, completely innocent nice old dude that just likes to stare people off. Completely. We don't know that. Apparently the locals around Macedon, he's. Reckon he's fine, he's harmless. I don't know. How harmless is he? He's just, he is. I don't know. And take some photo of you while you're sleeping. Like, no, that's not harmless. I mean, at least he's not maybe Dane like oh the OR I thought, I don't. Know it doesn't make me want to go camping, but no. Exactly. The big fours are good for me. Yeah.

1:31:55 Thank you very much. Yeah. Yeah, sticking to the big four. Yeah, all those five stars, as I say. Yeah, even better, I think it's not. You know, we need to keep in mind that at the end of the day, two families lost. Very, very much loved men. Oh yeah, I mean those poor grandkids. I mean that Carol was besotted with and then they don't have their grandmother anymore. That's freaking awful. He's and then Russell deceased. You know, their, their biological grandfather died, you know, Yeah. A while before that.

1:32:33 Russell and his family, the same thing. I really I, I in particular, I have a lot of empathy for Robin Hill. Absolutely. Because not only has she lost her husband, everybody knows that he was out there having an affair. That would be embarrassing. It would be. I just can't imagine the mixed emotions that she must be feeling and I'm sure he's still feeling to this day. And to know like, you know, that I mean, she loved him, there's no question of that. And that he was then in this position where he was in, you know, a fight of his life situation, whatever went on that that that day and that the person that was there with him through that was not you, was another woman.

1:33:14 I reckon that would be hard to just, you know, to know that. I mean, I know his daughters originally they sort of said, you know, when we first heard that it was someone else with him. We'll kind of at least he's with someone. He's not alone. But then it's this double jeopardy of that of like this whole like, but hang on a minute, that's a woman that he's having an affair with, that he's weird. That's it's a real like it's a comfort, but no, it's not. Yeah. Like how do you feel about SO? Conflicting.

1:33:37 So. Conflicting. Such a lot to it. So hopefully they've been able to come to some sort of rest with that. But I mean, you're, I think. This is the trial. The two families were a support for one another. Yeah, I know Carol's sister was has been interviewed fairly extensively and she seems like an absolutely lovely woman. And so I can say that she would be incredibly respectful and, you know, there'd be no, you know, animosity between both. I think they would both from the picture you get of them publicly when they've been out in the public, 3 doors, 2 doors more so, but he did have three.

1:34:09 But they all seem like incredibly lovely, down to earth, normal people that I, I hope that they can all come together and know that this is not malice between them, that this issue is Gregory and totally and that all that stuff is kind of secondary to it, unfortunately. Even though. It would be heartbreaking. Yeah. Oh, God. Well, we'll find out soon. We'll do a bit of an update maybe when we hear about the appeal and where that's at. We will and come back to this again. Yeah, that's. It. The case that just keeps giving.

1:34:44 Isn't it? My goodness. Now, just a reminder to everybody, next week there will be no episode. Yeah, unless you're a Patreon, in which case we are releasing an episode over there. Yep. Thank you to everybody for listening again today. We really appreciate it. And if you would like, please come and follow us on our socials. We are on Instagram, Facebook, TikTok. On the dying TikTok, yeah. Please help us boost our TikTok again. We had a great run there for a while, but the algorithm's changed again and we.

1:35:16 Don't. It's very interesting in the algorithm how it works over there. We're still getting probably the same amount of likes, but the views are down like it's ridiculous. It's really strange. Really, really strange. And if you'd like to support us, you can. Do, I mean, any likes all of that following us in your podcasting app goes a massively long way. We also have a Patreon for those who want to support us at $5 a month. It's the bestie tier, and that is patreon.com/two Crime Besties. You can buy us a coffee over at buymeacoffee.com/two Crime Besties.

1:35:47 Oh, come and support. Just listen. Just listen, that's what we want and enjoy. That's common. Let us know what you think. Yes, good, bad and ugly. Totally.

1:35:59 Oh gosh, awesome. Stay curious, crime besties. Bye.