Episode 64 - Ruby Franke & Jodi Hildebrandt

0:15 Welcome back Crime Besties for another episode of Two Crime Besties with Emma and Meg. Hello people, how we doing? I think we've had a lot of new followers this week Meg really following us on Spotify. So we did a shout out last week to say please follow if you like, if you are and we actually have had a lot new follow a lot of new followers this week I. Haven't actually seen that. So that's really. Cool to everybody who's followed us. Yeah, welcome. And hopefully that means you're coming back to us again the following week pretty easily.

0:43 Yeah. Yeah. I love that 'cause I mean, I have so many that I follow like podcasts and I love that, that when like I finished one, like whatever I'm listening to, like whether it be something for, you know, doing this podcast or whether it be something for enjoyment, general enjoyment. I mean, because it's always enjoying. Yeah. But yeah. And then like my, you know, run-of-the-mill ones, I always listen to just come on next and it's like it's so good. I. Love it. It was the best. Oh yeah. Yeah, you get to.

1:05 Listen. Oh, there's a new episode of Our Favorite Thing out. Yeah. Yeah. You love it. How has your week been? What have you been up to? I think the best part of this week is the end of it and like, you know, yeah, cuz it's end of term and cuz I finished yesterday for the term and it was like, oh God. Just skip out of there. Could not get out of there fast enough. Yeah, I literally said to the team as I'm leaving, going, you know, obviously Friday, if they need me, they can always contact me. And I'm always like, I was leaving, going.

1:32 If you need anything, let me know. Call me as I always do and let them know that. And I said, but maybe don't. Also, maybe it can wait if it can wait until next term, please allow it to wait until next term I'm. Sure, this place is burning down. You don't need me. Yes. Oh gosh, always here, but you know, yeah, please don't. I've also had enough for the term. Now I need a break. Really need the break, yeah? We the kids had colour run yesterday and they had a really, really fun time. It was so cute watching them.

2:02 I love it. And then this morning they had their football footy parade, which it's it is actually one of my favourite. Things actually, those two days to have them in a row. Holy crap, huge kids. Wow, how lucky are you? Because I loved it yesterday. I actually got to school in time just sort of to get the tail end of the run and then their celebration at the end of it, which is always lots of fun. And I walked into the school gate and within seconds of walking in, there was this bunch of like kids, friends, Brody's mom, Brody's mom, like hi guys.

2:31 And they were like, hug. I'm like. Oh no, I was actually wearing a suit yesterday. You. Idiot. I didn't think it through, did I not? Normally. Well, onto that. I know. Usually covered in colour. Yeah, well, I, I couldn't help. Yeah, change and it just didn't work out. That's always. A issue, it is a thing. So I couldn't help out anymore but yeah, and I'd obviously come straight from work and I'm like oh God. So yeah, my suit was covered. Even just the dust, the coloured dust in the air, it's so fine.

3:02 I was. Sucking it back. Yeah. Did you have pink snot this morning? Probably. Oh, God, yeah. Well, Mason's like pink hair this morning. Like he's such a great little sweater. And so I reckon he's got, he's got pink all in his forehead. He's like got his pink forehead thing. I'm like Gorbachevish. Yeah, he didn't get it. But anyway, pink all in his forehead. That will not come off. Literally, he scrubbed it and scrubbed it in the shower. He's like, as I said to him, this is my boys. We always have a thing.

3:31 Sorry but good men look after their skin. Yeah OK. And so there's cleanser and he said mum, I used the cleanser 3 times. Like my exfoliant for that? My job, yeah, But then I So then when he got out of the shower, it was still there. I got a baby wipe. I'm like, that gets rid of everything. Yeah, baby wipe. No, even to the point of there was no pink even on the baby wipe, you know, like I would have thought he was getting off. Nothing was. I said to him, look, the only good thing about that tells me that it's not gonna come off onto your pillow tonight, you know, but.

3:59 Like did you see that boy sitting in front of us and his head was stained? And I'm like, Oh yeah, it must have been the the colour. It was a few kids I noticed had yeah, oh, even the blondie's had some pink stained hair. Yeah, he's, he's got dark hair like me. Yeah, he's yeah. He had some pink in the front of his. Oh, that's in it. I'm like, yeah, it was quite dyed, like, OK, that's fun. That's. Fun. Whatever. Oh, it's fine. It's not gonna hurt him. He thought it was great. It was. So much fun, but it's.

4:25 Always like when they get home from it, you know, strip off at the door, don't not go into my house. Go into the house with that fine powder. Straight to the bathroom, Get in the shower, Yes. I had one who was way messier than the other, so at least we had a good order for the good reason to order the showers the way we did. Let me pick which one, yeah.

4:44 Might have been the one wearing the wig today.

4:47 Oh God, he look great. That's. Funny, it's really, really good. Actually, He so last weekend Peter took he's doing a Oh my God, this is like such a middle-aged man. Sort of, you know, they go through their hobbies. They they're either into lawns. Mm Hmm. Full driving. Yeah, Sport like fishing, Yeah. Or fishing or golf is another golf. middle-aged cycling. Yes. So Peters love cycling, but at the minute his latest obsession is full driving. Yeah. And so we're doing a couple of big full driving trips over the next 12 months.

5:21 Yeah. And so I said to one part of it is one of the ones we're doing is the Simpson Desert, right? So crossing the sand dunes in the middle of nothing, Australia, like literally you don't see another thing for four days. God help me. You'll love it. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah, you still do online shopping? Well, I we are. Not actually. No. Well, we are getting a star like, yeah, because I'm like, I'm not going that far without being able to contact emergency services should it be required. It's like more likely the online shopping then anyway.

5:57 Well, yeah, well, I've got to come home to some kind of packages I need. Some joy in my life. Yeah, that's. Right. So we are getting a star link for that person safety, safety, yeah. But one of the things is I'm like, we've never driven on sand dunes before. So Peter has decided to do this full driving course. And if you have to do the basic one before, you can do the sand dune course. So on the weekend, he took Oliver and they did the first day of this course. Yeah. Anyway, on the way home, they decided to stop off at this full driving show at an auto barn.

6:28 I think a lot of auto barns had it on the weekend. Whatever a 4x4 driving show and Oliver one a $500 speaker so it's this Bluetooth like you can throw the speaker in the pool completely waterproof it's got an LED light show like disco that comes out of it now out of my children is he the one who needed the loud no no does he love it the most oh absolutely it has pride of place in his bedroom and even on the lowest setting it is it makes the windows vibrate he's. Probably going it's it's not on mum, what are you talking?

7:06 Turn it on. So he was absolutely stoked with that. I mean, it's a cool price. That it's awesome. Just the fact that he won it. I mean, winning anything, little something that's actually usable and cool like. Worth like 500 bucks. Yeah. So he was. He was delighted to say the least. Yeah. So he had a a great day on Sunday then, you know, pumping up the tunes and and getting all that sorted so. Lucky you. Ohh, lucky me. Yeah. And he's, he opened it up, you know, as soon as he got home on Saturday night, I'm like, oh, God, yeah, this is our future.

7:38 Yeah, it'll be usable on the trip so too so. Well, that's what he seems to do. So in the middle of the Simpson Desert will probably. No one else will hear it. Just. You no one else will hear it because the poor animals that are trying to get some sleep slash me trying to get some. Anyway, yeah, more you. Yeah, Yep, Yep. So that was the highlight of of his week, that's for sure. Yes. Oh God, that's so gorgeous. Thank you. I do have some shout outs for today, so now first I'll do the buy me a coffee shout out.

8:08 So we had Amy's and Kelly Mitchell, both bias coffees this week. So thank you so much ladies. It's so, so, so appreciated. Absolutely. Then I've got a double shout out here for a patron only known by the name of Tanya. Yep, she has not only has she bought us a significant number of coffees that buy me a coffee, she has also joined our Patreon. So Tanya, thank you so much. She her comment was look, I'm just gonna blow our room. Go on two times. Hold on for a merry mounted from the rooftop. She's like best podcast on Spotify.

8:41 Can we get the money that they're getting to please Tanya? I'm like Oh my God that is so nice, thank you. Compliment and I love. That, I mean, we'll take it. Yeah. We really appreciate the fact that somebody thinks that. Yep, absolute legend. Yeah, we do struggle to think that we're that good, but we do appreciate all the compliments we're getting so many lately. I've really like, you know, within, you know, messages either being like, you know, I've got this suggestion or, you know, we love, you know, this part about the podcast, whatever.

9:12 But lots of like, you know, just really enjoying the podcast and for so many different aspects, which, you know, could be some of it's just the banter and other people like get rid of the banter. We just want the cage. Yeah. So from both ends, we're getting that. And so we love it. It's just great that people are really connecting with everything that we're doing so. And I think you know a lot of the the people who like the banter generally the people who've got like kids similar ages and all of that sort of stuff and can totally relate to what we're talking about.

9:36 So we. Just don't shut up. So we apologize, yeah. And I know a lot of our weeks are monotonous, but that is motherhood, that is life with young children. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's so true. Yeah. But yeah, should we just say too like obviously with the Patreon, like it's growing, which is fabulous. And we're gonna like start ramping up with that a little bit more. And we've got episodes coming out or we've dropped obviously our first one in there and we've got some more coming up. So we're planning in our weeks ahead that we are actually gonna be missing an episode on our regular feed.

10:08 But if you don't want to miss an episode, come and join us at Patreon because we will be dropping extra ones in there in replacement of the free feed. So just the one week you'll miss on the free but, but obviously we can come over to Patreon and you'll get your fix over there if you want to come and join us there. So come and join it for 5 bucks a month on the bestie tier. So yeah, come and join us and join the chat. There's the chat's going a bit nuts in there. Actually. We need to get back in there properly.

10:34 I know, I know. I just, I actually haven't had time, yeah, to properly get in there. But yeah. You can join us over at patreon.com/two Crime Besties. Fantastic. We really appreciate people's people joining us over there. Yeah. So in a couple of weeks we will be just taking a one week break. We just need to the scheduling of everything, you know, the madness of life. Yeah, we, we there was no other way around it. So we do apologize for that. But you know, these things happen. And we did take a break last year in the middle of the year as well.

11:05 Yeah, exactly. Yeah. We kind of, you know, it's, it's hard to produce a podcast every single week when we've got so many other things going. On when this is like, you know, this is our, well, it's our hobby, you know, kind of thing trying to fit it into a week with lots of things that go on with family and everything else. So that's it. That's right. It is what it is. It is what it is, Yeah. I mean, one week's off is not too bad. I think that we've done well. We've done well to make it back because it could have been more.

11:26 All right. And then my last shout out for today because, you know, he'd be a very upset if I didn't shout out to produce a Pete for setting up the podcast studio this morning. Yeah, I said to Meg, because we've we're slightly tight on time today only because our kids finished school early because it's the last day of term. And I'd said to Meg, I'll try really hard to get the studio set up so we can just come back from school, drop off and record. Yeah, but I didn't quite get there. It was just, you know, mornings.

11:56 Tell me about it. Yeah, so as I was walking out the door, I'm like, what time's your first meeting, Peter? And he's like, oh, I've got like 15 minutes. I'm like, right, get in there, do your best and get as much of it done as you can. So thank you, Peter. He did well. Everything was where we normally have it. Yeah, he did. Really. Well, I haven't. The boom's in a good spot. Yep. Thanks, Pete. Go, Pete. Appreciate it. OK. What are we talking about today? Who are we discussing today? Today I'm actually really happy to do this one.

12:21 I've like been wanting to chat with this one about. Meeting. With you for quite some time, I feel like. We actually have not even discussed. We really haven't had personal lives even. I mean, back when this all came to light, we had a brief conversation about it. Really nothing in depth, sorry. So we're we're coming in cold, but at the same time like because I'm I'm actually really keen to get it on the pod of like. What is your thoughts on all of this? And there's so much of it. There's so. Much so much.

12:45 So we're today then we're going to be talking about Ruby Frankie. So she is fascinating. But the whole the whole thing, the whole thing is fascinating and everyone around it. I'm really keen to get into this. Oh, me too, yeah. So Ruby Griffiths, which was her maiden name, was born on the 18th of January in 1982. Her parents were Chad and Jennifer Griffiths and they had five children. So Ruby was their eldest. They then had three girls and then their youngest is a boy. They've got something like 22 grandkids or something like that.

13:23 Gosh. So the interesting part about this. So for those of you who don't know Ruby, Frankie and how she became famous, I guess, or notorious, well, she's notorious now. The famous at the time is she started a YouTube channel called 8 Passengers and it went gangbusters. Her parents were also vloggers and well. Her sister, first two of her sister, one of her sisters particularly that she, she sort of went, oh, you're making money off this. So I'll see how I can go with that. Yeah. So it was like a very common thing within their family.

13:58 I think it's really worth like noting now that they're Mormon and this sort of family vlogging type situation is rife within the Mormon community. Mom talk, mom talk. Oh I love it. Oh, the Real Housewives are the real lives of Mormon wives. Oh my God. I. Just the Mormon wives one it just God that's bat shit crazy that one it's. Bat shit crazy I'm here season 3. Oh, same, same. But you know what I really, what I really think that that show, that show shows is that what Mormons present is not necessarily what they live all of the time.

14:41 Now, I'm not saying that every Mormon is like that by any stretch of the imagination, but they do give off a certain image, especially these ones who put their lives on YouTube or, you know, on TV shows. And they, you know, the idea or what they're presenting is that they're upholding these traditional Mormon values, like not drinking, no sex before marriage. If you're a strict mom, you don't even drink coffee. No stimulants at all. Yeah. And then they're going off. And I mean, we all know what happened.

15:13 We all know. Well, do we all do? If you don't, let's talk. Yeah, no, I mean the whole mum talk thing of like, you know, like soft swinging. So hell that is. Oh, come on, You're either swinging or you're not. But you know that this is the thing. Like, what is actually going on behind closed? Yes, I think nobody knows. And similarly, and I think this is true of a lot of family vloggers, whether they're Mormon or not, is what is being presented and then what is actually happening behind the scenes.

15:41 Yeah. And did you watch the documentary about Rudy? There's been a couple have watched. It have you watched the full of Ruby Frankie I? Think that yes. Yes. So they had a lot of outtake footage that was given to them for that documentary. Yes. And I found it really fascinating because you could see the bits where she was leading up to recording and then while she was recording she was all like animated and blah blah blah. The. Opening scene of that, yeah, it's really disturbing, really disturbing.

16:09 It actually is to watch of her like she's actually what, she's holding up some cards trying to work out how she's gonna like, film this to them. Pens or. Something. Yeah, yeah, she's holding something up. And then and she's like, you know, you can see the concentration and the, you know, planning ahead in the brain of, like, how this is gonna work. But she's really serious and real. And then all of a sudden this foom. Yeah. And she's on like, hi. And like, oh, it's real switch. And it's actually, it is disturbing.

16:37 And then at one point, like she must hear her kids. You can't hear it in the video. And then she's like I have told you like, like at the kids. And then she's back and it's like boom again. And she's like, and she practices it like 10 times into the camera, smiling into it and animating her face so that she can get the right thumbnail for everybody she's trying to do. You'll do it like that. Yeah, OK. Right. OK Yeah. It's very like, well, I mean, she's performing. And so then it becomes to me, then it's not vlogging because you're not just recording life as it is, you're actually performing.

17:09 It's a completely different. Thing to me and this is I was actually going to make the exact same point yeah. I'm like this is not a vlog. This is not in a day this is not a day in the life of because as we get along you'll also will. I'm sure we'll talk about this but the way she makes her children perform if they don't react in the right way to something she makes them do it again. It's not. There's nothing authentic about what she's producing and putting out there. Yeah, you know, it's, it's, it is.

17:35 It's disturbing. Yeah, very interesting. Like how I don't mean I've heard Chad, her eldest, well, second eldest, sorry, talk about this, you know, as an adult himself now of the fact of when they were recording that it was they would record most of the day, you know, and it would be that, you know, part of the day would be normal without the camera. But he said if you missed something, if you said something that was funny and like content, you then had to go. She would then, you know, crack it, get the camera out and go.

18:05 You have to do that again when it was just a family moment, which is what I guess, Yeah, is would be generally what a vlog would be like. You pick up, pick those moments that do happen and that are genuinely family, you know, incidents and things that go on. But yeah, she would make him repeat it and do it again. Like it's like that's not authentic. If you think about your life, yeah, there's not that many interesting things that happen. You have to create like in order to. So they were putting out a video every day, five days a week under in their Eight Passengers YouTube channel, 6:00 AM.

18:38 They would release the videos every weekday morning and day, every day, every day. And so in order to and that their episodes, some of them were up to an hour long. I mean, not only the getting the contents one thing I mean, but we know just editing it. Yeah, putting that together as like because I mean, you know, from a day of filming like that, she must have been like then editing into the all hours of the night. I would have that ready to go. I wouldn't imagine morning that's. Probably insane so because you're going through a.

19:04 Lot of hours of footage there. Yeah, wow. Yeah, I think she edit. I did see an interview with her. This was before anything happened. Yeah. And somebody asked her about her process and she said she kind of edited as she went. So like she'd have a computer or whatever and she'd upload the bits and into her software as she was like, Oh yeah, I'm gonna use that. I'll pop that in there now. So I'm guessing it was like a progressive thing across the day. But you're right, a lot of work would go into that.

19:33 But who whose family generates an hour or 30 minutes even of interesting content in a day that she constantly had to push different things in order to get content? That for that many that I mean, yeah, for releasing something daily, holy crap. Like that's you're putting a lot of pressure on yourself and your family to do that. Yeah, that's insane. I think it's like, so let's let's have a bit of a chat. So she was Frankie Ruby was married to a man by the name of Kevin Frankie. Yeah. Now they met at college.

20:07 I believe he was. He's a little bit older than she is, but he. They met at college at BYU, BYU, yeah, and they ended up really falling for each other. But even the story about that really gets me. This is where like again, the Mormon situation gets me on that of like they really fell in love. Did they though? Because like, I mean, I'm not saying that they didn't either. I'm just asking the question because it is very typical in the Mormon faith that things move very quickly. Yes. So I mean, it's not unusual when there's actually a Tiktok thing where they go around and say like and ask Mormons like, you know, how long did you date for before you were married and or, you know, engaged at least, you know, and typically those people like, it's like a question thing that gets asked to like pick around BYU, right.

20:51 And yeah, it's not unusual for two weeks, two months, two weeks. Yeah. It's like there's definitely like very short times of space of like not meeting somebody, dating and getting to that eventual point of like of engagement to me, like in our in non Mormon culture, two years would not be and in any way abnormal, you know, like that you're dating someone before you're engaged. Oh yeah, one year is probably still fast. Fast. Yeah. You know, like 2 years is probably very normal. You know, five years for myself, like kind of stuff before you went to like to the next one.

21:26 It's but they are. Yeah, it's it's a fast moving thing. So then I really wonder how well you actually know that person and. The The funny thing about Kevin is he said he he as soon as he saw Ruby, he fell in love with her. Yeah, and he pursued her so in her closet at her house. So how the hell were he was in her closet when their? Mormons were even. Married. But anyway, that's a that's a story. Maybe that Kevin can one day in lightness. But he was in her closet and he found this chart that she'd made and it was all of the attributes that she wanted in her future husband and how important they were.

22:00 Right. And it was things like. So it's from the incredibly superficial, like he needs to be at least two inches tall, no, 3 inches taller than me, something like that. Yeah, right. He needs to be handsome. He needs to have a well respected job. He needs to have like be a man of faith, blah, blah, blah. She I'm talking this chart was probably 2A3 pages put together. I mean, part of me is like, go you, you know what you want. But at the same time I'm like, like, you don't know I mean you. What? The perfect person might be two inches shorter than you, and does that really matter exactly?

22:34 But so Kevin found this and he's like, I did everything I could to check every single box. I didn't. Read it and go. I meet them all already, no? Well, it made it made him demonstrate. Maybe, maybe he had all of those attributes, I don't know, but it made him demonstrate them to her. But then that they say to me, then that's manipulation absolutely like because then you're but. Then but then we also know, like I just think in this, he was so one eyed in getting wanting her and getting her yeah, that he did whatever it took.

23:07 And he can justify that because he he just knew she was the person for him. Yeah, and then, well, we'll talk about things as they come along. But yeah. And so he got a hook like an insinker. I think they dated for two months before they got in. And this is quite standard. It's two months. I mean, who knows the person? But and they can't do anything in that room. They don't know them like they're fully chaperoned. So they can't even go on a date on their own. And then once they're engaged, they can't.

23:36 It's not, they're not kissing or anything like that. Their first kiss is at No. Their first kiss is when they're bound together for time and all eternity in the temple. Right.

23:48 Sorry to. Look on your face.

23:52 Oh man. OK, but that's what it is. That's what they're committing to. And because Mormons believe that you are literally, once you are married in the temple, that you are literally together for eternity, time and all eternity. I. Think I can I oh God, first guy that you've ever like dated. Not like not even that, because you didn't even do that and you're engaged. Oh yeah, fair. So like I go back to that sort of thought in my mind and go. What if he's a terrible kisser? What if he's just a Dick?

24:19 Yeah. Because you don't know. Especially he's got your list and he's trying to meet all that criteria. Yeah, I don't know. Yeah. Yeah, I know, I know, I know. Look, it's not something that we, it's not something that is in our experience. No really out of my. Yeah, So they lived in Utah. Mormon Central. Yeah. In a really beautiful town. Like, absolutely picturesque. I. Really want to go to Utah. Me too. Like, for many reasons. Me too. But I just think I find every time I see photos and images of like, their, you know, towns and their, you know, their housing and all that sort of stuff, I just go, oh, my God, Yeah, It looks so lovely.

25:00 Very. The suburbia of Utah seems really lovely. Yeah. If only they went shootings and things. And yeah, that's the thing else that goes with all. That they went on to have six children. Yeah. And we're going to name the eldest 2 because they are both, well, several of their children are of age. But at the time that all of the issues and everything that happened in this case came out, there were only two children who were of age at the time and spoke publicly. Yeah. So that is Cherie, their eldest daughter, and Chad, their oldest son.

25:37 They then had four other children. They had a daughter, a daughter, a son and another daughter. Yeah. Now, we'll probably just refer to those children by their first initials because it is we, we look, their names are out there. If you want to find them, you absolutely can. But they are the children that we're going to be talking about today in particular. They're still minors. Yeah. And they have experienced extreme trauma. We don't want to perpetuate any of that, but we do want to tell this story because it's just, I think and.

26:09 There's important reasons why. We need to talk and we have 100% be getting to that as we go through. Yeah. But I think these kids need to have at least some anonymity, if they can have some, to be able to move on with their lives as they wish. And whether that be that in their own time they want to come forward and talk more. Yeah. But I think that's really that's their decision. And I don't think we should be naming them for that reason. No, that's exactly right. So the YouTube channel 8 Passengers, they launched that when Ruby was pregnant with their youngest daughter.

26:40 And the first video that they released was them finding out the gender of that of that final child of theirs. Yes. And it garnered, you know, quite a few views and it really started things going. Apparently in their first month on YouTube, they earned 87 dollars. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm like the fact that they were monetizing that early means that they must have been doing pretty well pretty early on. Absolutely. They, they think they got to about 5000 followers real quick. Like that was sort of it blew to, blew up a little bit, like, you know, to that point, yeah.

27:16 But then it probably took about two years for them to get to that full blown next level where they reached like 2 and a half million. But that's still a short space of time. Really, I think at the peak they had just under 2.3 million subscribers. Yeah. And they were earning upwards of 120 thousand U.S. dollars a month. Yeah, in that is just in YouTube revenue. That's it. Not that's not including any of the endorsement sponsors. Yeah. And they did a lot, a lot of that sort of stuff yes. So they, they did, they did ads for things like baby wipes and they went to Disneyland and, and filmed a thing at Disneyland about using baby wipes to wipe surfaces and stuff like the, the, the amount of money that was being thrown at these people was.

28:02 Insane. They were making a lot of money. Yeah, A. Lot of money. Yeah, and like so, Ruby wasn't working and she didn't need to this. Was working. On the that's what was working town job, Yeah, she was working outside of the home. This was what this job is what for, like gave her the opportunity about to stay at home with their kids. Yeah. But yeah, I mean that, as I was saying before, this would have been a full time job to her. Absolutely. Because so much needed to be done in terms of the equipment and setting it up and having it all recording and having it and repeating it over and over again to get it how you want.

28:37 It getting it right, right? But then the editing of that and uploading it and things, there is a lot that goes with all of that. Yeah. And actually, and when you see the videos too, you can tell from those initial videos, yeah, to you know what like came a bit later. She did take some time to find her feet in the editing process. And there's a lot of difference between the initial ones in terms of amateurish to like later ones where it is very much produced. And I and I dare say look, as they were earning more money, there was a bit more of a team behind some of that.

29:10 But she did a lot of it herself though, didn't she? Like so. At the start, she did it all by herself. They then employed, as time went on, they employed A videographer and an editor. So I think by the time they were sort of at that peak, yeah. I don't know that Ruby had much of a hand in doing the grunt work of it, but I think she still chose what went into the videos and obviously had the final say in all of it. Yeah, Kevin was still about working. He was a professor of civil engineering at BYU.

29:41 His his study of focus earthquakes. OK, I don't know. Is is Utah an earthquake? I I have no idea. No, I don't. Know, I know like LA is, yeah, but I'm not sure. I'm not sure about Utah in particular with regard to earthquakes, but that was his sort of, yeah. And he stayed working as a professor for the whole time. Like he he never gave up his work. Just on the point of like what they recorded on the Daily Two, there was nothing that was off limits. Literally they filmed Kevin's grandmother's funeral like.

30:19 Logged it she she vlogged a car accident she was. In yeah there was so much that they put on this that everyone anyone else I think would be like well clearly that's personal like you know that's that's too far too far no she. She filmed so the the 1 the video that they filmed when they were in the car accident was like the video title was first day back at school car crash. Oh my God. And literally it was it was the first day back at school for the kids because she homeschooled some of them. It was a bit weird the way they did it, but the kids who were going to school, they were on their way and it wasn't Ruby's fault at all, but somebody came and sort of side swapped her and her car went into another car.

30:58 What the school? Car, school, roads around the are crazy and people do stupid things. Do they? We don't know anything about that, no. Not at all. Actually, one of the school mums from our school commented on our team to say so if you're listening, thanks. And and we know, yes, you do know exactly who we're talking about. I know where that went. Oh my God. Oops. And yeah, totally. Oh, we all know if you're going to drive like a Dick head, you've got to be going to be called out for it. But anyway, sorry.

31:24 And in the in the vlog, she basically gets hit. She gets her camera out now she does not know the state of anybody else who's been hit in this accident. This kind of thing I mean. She gets her vlogging camera out. She goes over with her kids to stay in the car. They're all fine. She goes over with her vlogging camera and goes over to the other car to check that that person was OK. That person was OK, she then. But most importantly, it's the camera. Not yes, not at all, not the she's only it's literally is video first priority me, me being recorded asking someone, are you OK?

32:00 Is what's important there not the answer to that question? Exactly. I'm like that's it's just fucked. Up anyway, so she then goes and checks the other car and that person's OK as well. She then goes back to her car and her youngest boy R is in the back crying and and she's like, you know, we just need to be thankful to God that we're all OK and that everybody's OK. And she then still just takes them to school. She's just. It's just, I don't know if she. Yeah, Yep. Anyway, so that's, that's, you know, and oh, then what about the video that she did where she takes Cherie Bra shopping and puts that on you?

32:42 Yeah. Mormons are modest, right? They're supposed to be. Modestly, yeah. Dressed, modestly discussed. That was just. Put all over the Internet. And she's taking her teenage daughter, very young teenage daughter. Mind you, I think she was 13, bra shopping and she. Vlogs it. Oh, just that's crazy, strange and awful for a daughter. Cheree said at the time it didn't bother her, but then when she did the same thing to one of her younger sisters, yeah, she's like, oh, I felt really uncomfortable for my sister in that situation, like a bit from a different.

33:16 Perspective, yeah, see, I wonder if there's a little bit of like, oh, I'm the centre of the tension so I'm OK with it. But like when it when you see it from the other perspective of it happening with someone else, it just looks a bit looks a bit yuck. And you kind of go, Oh yeah, maybe that was bit weird. Yeah, like. The children were all employees of Rubies, so technically they were paid. Yeah, although what she paid them and then we'll, we'll discuss the rest of that in a minute. Yeah. But what she paid them, it wasn't like they got a standard flat fee per day or something like that.

33:48 She would give them. She'd be like, I'll give you $10 if you do this video. If you do right. I'll give you $100 if you do this video with me. Oh so. It was bribery. It was. It was. Essentially bribery. Yeah, That's not being paid in as employee. It's like, like saying, you know, like if you come to this meeting, I'll feed you pizza, we're not going to pay you. Like, you know what I mean? Like as in trying to incentify like what you actually do for your job like. Yeah, I feel like what they should have done, and I would never vlog my children, but you know, maybe pay them a flat rate of $100 a day each.

34:22 Yeah, or something. Well, yeah, I mean they, yeah, we'll get into all of it. Exactly what where we get to from here with that? But yeah, it's that's, that's not right. Like they're, they're, they're putting in a lot of work, too. Absolutely. People wouldn't be watching if they didn't have kids. You. Know well this is the thing that's. And then she she knew that too. That was quite part of it that got her into it because actually what happened was her sister was vlogging, but she didn't have any children right.

34:45 And they're having trouble falling pregnant. Yeah. And so but the one video that did blow up was them finally finding out they were pregnant and that was when she got the idea of like, Oh well, I'm already pregnant. I could do a video of the gender reveal and start vlogging and sort of going from there. So that was what she knew, that kids got the audience and that's what would get people to bite. So yeah, she knew that the kids were the pool. Yeah, yeah, for sure. And The thing is, like, of course, of course the kids were the pool because they were the content for her there.

35:18 It was their lives that she was vlogging. Really. Like, what did she? Her life was her children. That's all she had, really. Like, yeah. And even more so as you, again, we went along because she really started isolating herself from other people as well. It became so insular. Yeah. Yeah, which is part of part of the. Problem. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, just absolutely. Crazy. So should we get to the start of the end? Yeah, I think that's well. Actually, let's just give a bit of a background. So of so Chad, the eldest son in the vlogs, you sort of see things going along.

35:54 So first of all, they present themselves as this perfect Mormon family. Then I guess as time goes along, people see bits and pieces and what comes to light is that Chad's been expelled from school. Now, we don't really know the exact reason why, but I think it was a few different, a few incidents, incidents that had happened that sort of led to his expulsion. He he sort of talks about it of just typical stuff for teenagers. He But there wasn't even one thing was there. No, it was just little things and he even says little things.

36:24 It was. There was nothing really major to it. There's an expectation of perfectionism within the Mormon culture. Yeah. And I think he wasn't necessarily living up to that. I feel like he was rebelling the life that he was being forced to lead to lead, I believe. And in the videos, he looks depressed to me, like he's so downtrodden. And anyway, so it comes to the point where he's expelled from school. His mum and dad are, like, at their wit's end. Even though these kids aren't there is, you know, they're really not.

36:52 They're really not bad, but they're at their wit's end. And so they decide to send him to a camp. And this is one of those wilderness camps that they have in the US that like a la Paris Hilton sort of thing. Yeah. And he goes out into the desert for 10 weeks. 10 weeks. 10I. Think it's a 10 weeks. 10 weeks without a shower. No shower for 10 weeks. He goes out and they have to pitch their own tents and hunt for their own food. And I think I think some food, sorry, some food was provided. They had to forage for other things and whatever.

37:25 And I think it was in Arizona or something. He went to this camp. It wasn't within it wasn't in Utah. Oh it. Wasn't even nearby. No. Oh. God. And so at the end of the 10 weeks, Ruby and Kevin go to the camp and they stay one night with him in this situation that he has just spent 10 weeks in, right? Yeah, Ruby says in the vlog the next morning. Because of course, she vlogged it all. She says in the vlog the next morning that she's like, that was the worst night's sleep I've ever had. I never want to do that again.

37:55 I'm like, yeah, but yeah, you've just subjected your, I think he was 1616 or 17 year old son to 10 weeks of this. Oh, God. Anyway, they drive home, he has a shower and, you know, things are all hunky Dory again. The kid, all of the youngest siblings are so happy to see him, you know, and they've really, really missed him. As part of as part of this, I think there were some other behaviours that had sort of led to the point where Ruby decided, sorry, First things first, after he came back from the wilderness camp, Ruby decided that he probably needed some counselling to kind of keep him on track and to make sure that none of these naughty things sort of happen again.

38:42 And she's recommended a psychologist. I put that in inverted commas for those of you who are not watching us by the name of Jodie Hildebrand and. She's like the go to in terms of the Mormon church. She was very much a That's the person you see. Yeah, she was definitely at the forefront of like, she was very visible within the church. And then obviously, yeah, she was the guru that everyone would go and see. She was making a fortune. She was worth about four mil when they first met and she was charging about $200.00 an hour for her counseling.

39:17 Yeah, yeah. And she basically would counsel Chad. Now, I think most of the people who were seeing her, she made them subscribe to this model of care that she developed, not based in any evidence whatsoever. And this is this has been sort of debunked by a lot of psychologists since all of this information has come out. But she would put people on these plans whereby they would need to see her several times a week and do all of these different protocols that she developed. Some people were paying $1000 a week to receive her.

40:01 Therapy. Yeah, 1000. Dollars a week, yeah. Now Chad says that at the start he he was a bit resistant, but as time went on and he had more and more sessions with her, he kind of did become comfortable with her and started to take on some of her practices and did have a. It did have a positive benefit at the start in his life and it really did help to sort of settle him and whatever. But he was a teenage boy, right? So she would tell him things like she, she was like almost like a priest in the way that she spoke to her, I'm going to say disciples, but to her patients.

40:42 Yeah. She would basically make them repent for things that they had done or thought of or whatever. And so Chad, as a teenage boy at some point had viewed pornography, right? This is just one example. She never let him live that down or give that up and she just said he was like. That made him evil. That made him evil. That's right. He had the devil in him and. That's what she would do. She would manipulate from that point of like these were people who are already very much have faith, right? So she would take that faith that they already had and make it fully take it to a whole another level of, you know, that, yeah, that sin makes it even worse again, you know, and really drag them down into these depths of absolute feeling shame and that they were evil for these thoughts or things they had done that really just better than it was just beating them down, I guess, and really making you feel shit about yourself.

41:47 Yeah, so then she's not doing what people have gone there to get her to do. Like they're not feeling better about themselves. No. Well, the only way you could feel better about yourself was to then, you know, repent and. Pay her $1000 a week. Yeah, and, you know, improve your life and meet her standards of what she was setting. You know, that he had to do all these things to be able to then not be the evil piece of shit she was making out. He was for these fairly minor things that he was doing. There was a lot of the things were so minor.

42:16 It was made to be. It was made out to be so major. Yeah. I think you know, she she was such a in so in the documentary Devil in the Family, the full of Ruby Frankie. It's available on Disney. Yeah. Disney Plus, Yeah. They talk in that documentary, they've got a man that she sort of mentored or shadowed for about 12 months. And he basically said he had to get away because as a as a trained counsellor, because the things that she was telling her patients to do were not based in evidence were completely outside their code of practice.

42:54 And she was, she shouldn't have been practicing that way. And it made him so incredibly uncomfortable. She would tell, she would split marriages apart. She would she like it got really, really dangerous to be one of her patients. Absolutely. There's a number of people that have come forward since about their counseling with her. And yeah, basically one of the things that she attached to very quickly with people was, as you mentioned, like the porn before, that if they've watched porn once, it's not just watching porn once you're addicted to porn and, and convincing the wife or the OR the partner, and I say wife because she also did counsel gay marriages and all that sort of thing.

43:36 But you know, the other partner, she would convince them that the other partner who's been watching the porn, they're addicted to porn. You need to get away from them. They need to, they need to like sort their shit out and separate them. So rather than counseling them together then even if kind of going, OK, we've done this, let's move. Like, how are we going to move through this together? It would be an immediate, you need to separate and, you know, because he needs to sort that out and watching that porn because that's evil.

44:00 And he's fully addicted. And you as the partner you need to, you know, separate yourself from because you can't, you want to like, catch it. Like she, I mean, a lot of her practices were entrenched in homophobia, transphobia. Oh, absolutely. All these sorts of things were going on in terms of her counselling as well. So, Oh yeah, she was bad. Bad, bad news. Yeah. She was an astute businesswoman, though, because she pretty quickly as her popularity began and to rise, she pretty quickly realized that even though she's charging 200 bucks a pop, there's only so much of her that can go around.

44:33 And there's only there's a finite, essentially a finite number of hours in a week that she can practice. Yeah. So what she started to do was make up these courses. Yeah. And she would either have people come to seminars that she would host and present. It was under the brand connections with an Elks, but she it was an it was an amazing business model because she was able to in an hour reach, I don't know, 30 people or 40 people or a room full of people, Yeah, who were paying her still the 200 bucks for the hour or the whatever much for the hour.

45:09 And she also would then host these online groups as well. So she was able to then have a far further reaching, geographically further reaching, you know, a group of people come to her seminars that were held online. She hosted these men's groups, which were fucking horrific. Oh, yeah. She hated men. Yeah, she really. Hated men. Yeah. This Judy Hildebrand had been married. Yeah. And divorced, which in the Mormon Church in and of itself is a big no no. She had children that she was estranged from.

45:45 We don't actually know anything about them, which, you know, let that be absolutely. They deserve their anonymity and to be completely separate from her because Oh my God, yes, good, good, good on them. They obviously saw the light. I mean, they'd they'd be adults now anyway. So but she was somehow then the authority on marriage and the authority on relationships and you know, she was going way outside her scope of practice in terms of what information she was providing to couples in these couples therapy type situations, to these men who she said she basically told all men that read.

46:20 Absolutely she would yeah, yeah, yeah. And I just say broke up marriages over it like in just yeah, that was her MO. Like big time yeah. Oh yeah, she. She's an evil piece of shit. Oh yeah, yeah, I, yeah, yeah. Actually, at the end of this even I'll say she's worse than Ruby. Oh, I agree. Yeah, I fully agree. I fully, fully agree. Yeah. So. The what I was getting back to before when we sort of started talking about Chad. So I think it's probably worth noting as well in all of the the 8 Passengers vlogs, Cherie was kind of a bit like the golden child because she, she was the eldest, she was a girl.

46:58 She was, she her personality, she's a beautiful now woman, but she's a beautiful girl, very well natured. But she went, you could just tell she went along. She placated her mum. Yeah. She did everything her mum asked. She kept, she was the peacekeeper of the family. Yeah. And we look at that from like a, you know, being parented by a narcissist. There is always a peacemaker. She was that person and she took on that role. She was certainly very much a mother figure for her younger siblings. Yeah.

47:28 She and Chad had a very, very close relationship growing up. Yeah. And so she was kind of seen by Ruby as being this wonderful child and, you know, the poster child and whatever. Then, you know, juxtaposed with Chad, who, you know, might have looked at porn once, like, is the devil child? Yeah, the devil child who, like most people, would be enamored to have a child like Chad. Ohh, God, I mean, really? Yeah, he's a lovely kid. I mean, and and now adult too. I mean, I've seen interviews with him very recently and like, wow, wow, Really impressive.

48:01 Very impressive. Yeah, man. I mean, and Sherry as well, she's incredibly impressive. She's written a book now, obviously, very interesting book. And something that she really talks about in that book too, is that we think about Ruby, Frankie and like Jodie Hildebrand and that becoming sort of the, I guess, the start of this, you know, child abuse that we get to and things. But it's not so Sherry. Sherry also talks about the fact that prior to Jodie, there was abuse going on. And you can see that in her videos as well, as I was just saying at the beginning how that, you know, that she would, you know, be filming and she would absolutely unleash, you know, screaming, yelling at children there in the background who happened to just interrupt her recording, you know, from making kid noises.

48:41 You know, they're in the home. Like. You know, yeah. And so apparently that was very standard that in their home that they would get yelled at a lot. And I don't mean just, I mean we all yell times. But she was. OK, you think you yell at your kids and then you look at videos like that. Oh, and I go, I don't yell. I don't actually yell at them. Yeah, yeah. No, she was next level yell at, yell at, yelling at her kids. Sherry also talks about, you know, like playing the piano and if and learning piano and if she's stuffed up, you know, that the, you know, piano leader would get shoved on her fingers.

49:11 And, you know, so there was physical abuse as well and things like that going on. And it's. Also withholding of food as. Well, absolutely. So lots of things like that going on prior and then and what actually Sherry says was that when Jodie came on the scene, things actually on the they looked, they looked better. And she actually was grateful for Jodie because what Jodie did for for Frankie, for Ruby at the beginning was that she she got her to calm. So there was no more yelling. The yelling stopped.

49:43 So she was like, Oh my God, to not be yelled at all the time. And she was very like eerily actually level and calm. So it was that was something that Jodie Hildebrand brought in that, you know, that the that you didn't yell anymore that but unfortunately it brought a whole lot of other things that came. Do you? Think it's interesting the kind of things though that around this time that Ruby was then letting show on the vlog. So what I'm referring to is a a specific incident that where one of the younger children had left their lunch at home and the school rang to say E has left her lunch at home.

50:22 Do you mind bringing if you're available, please bring some food up to the school. The. Way she speaks about this just does. Mind, I know. And she's like, and she says to the and this blows my mind because I would never. I just would never. She says to the teacher, no, she knows the consequences of her actions. And she's 6. She's 6. She should have packed her own lunch. I asked her if she packed her lunch and she said she had. And then she says, I really hope nobody gives her food today. Yeah. She needs to know the consequences of not packing her own lunch.

50:49 So and I know that that would make the teacher more comfortable if I went up there with us with something for her, but I'm not, I'm not about making you more comfortable, teacher. My my child needs to feel the consequences of not doing what she's, you know, meant to. Do I feel a bit around this time there was this it's. Fucking disgusting. I just, it's gross. It's absolutely gross. But what I can't then understand it. I mean there's a whole lot wrong here, but the school I don't believe reported anything.

51:16 No, because I feel like they would have just given her food and moved on. Yeah. But there have been a lot of other things going on too that they would have. I think there been a whole picture is what I'm getting at, rather than just the food thing. There would have been hang on a second. This isn't I mean to get OK, a parent saying Oh my God, yeah, my kids not got a lunch box, but. I'm in the city and I can't get back. Well, there's one thing about, you know, like doing the whole, like putting on a show for the school and going, Oh my God, I can't live.

51:42 I forgot your lunch. Oh, I feel terrible. OK, well, I can't get there. Sorry. Yeah. Can you deal with that? Yeah, right. Then there's a whole other level of her saying no, she needs to have the consequences of that. And actually, like burrowing down into this, I'm going to have this stance that, you know, my 6 year old needs to feel consequences and feel hungry. She wanted her child to feel hungry and and voiced that that is someone who has no conscience of like that might not be the right thing.

52:09 Oh. No, she fully thinks it's the right thing to do. She also says in one of the vlogs, Oh, I've told the kids they're not allowed to eat until they've finished all their chores this morning. Like what? Yeah, food became a. Real. And when I say chores, I'm not, it's not just like make your bed and then come out for breakfast. It was like these kids, there's videos of it. She even put this stuff in her vlogs as well. Yeah, they are scrubbing walls. They are cleaning skirting boards. They're cleaning like in between the runner.

52:33 Like yeah full army shit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was unbelievable what they were expected to do. Yeah. And I get it, having six kids, I mean, who's got the time to do anything Like, yes, you need, you need to have kids pitch in or whatever and do little jobs. But this was not. This was full on and not. Withholding food, Yeah. That's. That's. Next level. Oh, who needs a grumpy buddy? Hungry kid? I mean Jesus, but. They weren't allowed to be grumpy, No, because then there'd be other consequences for them.

52:58 They were. They had. To be on for the camera, that's. Right. Oh God, it's just awful. Oh, it's horrible. So yes, you do start to see abuse on the channel, even though people didn't necessarily recognise it as that at this time, I think. Point where people did yeah, so. What you're referring to is there's a particular vlog that she put out and in it it's basically her, Chad and one of the younger children sitting there discussing. I don't even know what they were discussing. At the time, but this wasn't what was gonna come out.

53:30 It just sort of came out naturally. Chad basically said, well, they were talking about consequences and she said she gives consequences for six months, never less than six months, right, so. Kid remembers what they did yesterday. When? You talked, I know like I've I find it hard to follow through in a consequence for a day. No, I do the whole like, you know, you're like, oh, that's it, no iPad for a week. Oh no. Hang on, wait, I can't do that. Half an hour, half. As long as, as long as they, you know, as long as there's impact.

53:59 Let's follow through that. But basically in this vlog, Chad basically says, well, I only just got my bedroom back two weeks ago. I've been sleeping on a bean bag in the basement for six months.

54:13 The whole Ruby. Ruby goes oh I don't think our followers know about that Chad, but she keeps it in the vlog and posts. She posted it. She could have chosen just keep that video out, but she didn't. The second it gets posted, yeah the vitriol starts. So their comments go from being it overwhelming. They'd already been a few comments coming, like it had been a little bit of some people picking up on stuff, but this was the the absolute turning point. Yeah, to the point where like people were running things like this is vile.

54:37 How can you do this? This is child abuse. Somebody report them. You know the comments. There was a change to all petition started as well that ended up 20,000 signatures were on it. And it was in a really short space of time, like within a week. Yeah, within a couple of weeks, if that, yeah, like it was real quick, 20,000 people, that's a huge amount of people to sign a change that all petition. Oh yeah. And so the petition was asking for basically authorities to step in for this. They wanted CPS to go and invest.

55:03 Yeah, Child Protective Services to go and invest. Absolutely, and I think fair. Oh, absolutely. So Ruby actually took that video down as soon as she started getting all these negative comments. Well, I think she just turned comments off. I don't think she actually took. It down, she took it down. Yeah, she. Took it down because, yeah, Chad talks about like, the fact that there were consequences for him for that video. And it's like, well, they're not consequences. They shouldn't be consequences for him.

55:25 You chose to put that up there. And you thought that that would be that That's OK One, you thought it was OK to do it in the first place. Yeah. And then you thought it was OK for other people to know about it and not feel that way. That poor kid. I mean, sleeping on a shit mattress can do bad things to your back when you're a growing teenager, let alone sleeping on a fucking bean bag. But just even the thought of the emotional damage of that, of having your, your bedroom removed from you, I mean that that's just psychologically so.

55:55 Awful. Oh, it's fucked up. It's so fucked. Up. Yeah. I mean, God, whether that bedroom was a shared bedroom or you know, I'm not talking about that, your space where your things are removed from you and taken away from you. He wasn't even allowed to go into his bedroom. Then because the other thing was he also had his door removed from his bedroom at one stage and his bathroom door removed so he wasn't even allowed any form of privacy. For a teenage boy. Come on, No kidding. If this kid was going to school and mucking up, good on him, but.

56:24 It was rebellion. Like, of course it was he these poor gotcha, these poor kids. Yeah, and that's not even the worst of it. Like oh God, not even this stuff I don't. Even want to rank it because it's all awful. All bad. But yeah, it's like just fucked. Up. It's so fucked up. You know, I think we haven't even mentioned Kevin in all this. He's just a passive. Because he's a passenger. Yeah. Because we can get to him entirely. I have serious opinions. Oh. So do I. Oh, so do I. We'll get to him. We will get to him.

56:52 Yeah. It's just not. Well, because he's not, he's not present with this. And that's where he doesn't come up, which is. Well, he's not present in the, he's not really in the vlogs that much because he's at work all day, right. But Ruby certainly discuss in some of the vlogs that he's in. He she discusses things. She there are, there are certain vlogs that they do where it's sort of like talking heads where they're filming themselves discussing things that have happened. And he just goes along with literally everything she says.

57:20 Yeah, and she gets angry with him sometimes, like in these behind the scenes ones that you can see in that documentary I mentioned. And he he gets, she's like Chad, you've got to talk more. But then he sorry, Kevin, you've got to talk more. But then when he says stuff, she gets angry at him for saying stuff. So he's he's fucked if he doesn't, he's fucked if he doesn't. Absolutely. But I mean, you know, yeah, enabler, because with this incident with Chad, with the bean bag stuff and the video being, you know, going not right, not how she wanted it to when that blow that happened.

57:55 She she Chad talks about the fact that, yeah, she'd been very calm because Jodi Hildebrand was around at this point, obviously, and she'd been calm and not yelling and stuff. But when this happened, she yelled, she flicked back into her old self and he was getting this, you know, absolute vitriol of abuse at him, you know, verbally. And Kevin did apparently say OK, not this isn't OK. And did tell Ruby stop, Chad remove, you know, removed him and said hit him, you go, you go and shit. And he was left to calm her.

58:27 So. But I still don't think it was a, you know, how dare you speak to my child like that. It was more of a, oh, Chad, you know, your poor mum feels awful. So I'm going to help her. Like it was a bit more that orientated. So, yeah, yeah, yeah.

58:43 So from this point, like obviously this is in 2020, I believe the the video, that video went up, yeah. It was 20. So there was still they still kept putting videos up after this point, but it wasn't until. But can I just say, yeah, that, sorry, at this point, this is where their subscribership really started declining. So they really reached a peak right before this. Yeah, at that sort of 2.3 million mark. Yeah, you know, massive amounts of money every month. And it was around this time that that shift really started.

59:11 Yeah, and also because sponsors started pulling themselves to like. Once that, in fact, I believe with that one video, they lost 95% of their sponsorship, yeah, which which raked in the most amount of money for them. So I'm talking they're earning 120 grand a month from YouTube revenue. That was their lesser income compared with the brand sponsorship Exactly. So we're talking so much money it's not even funny. Yeah, and. That's what and like so from a kids perspective of that, you know, 16 year old, 17 year old Chad, he says now even thinking back on it, that was his worst fear actually.

59:46 It was like being so drilled into them as a family that this is how they make their money and this is how they have their lifestyle, that he was really concerned about the money going. That poor boy. But that's not for him to. Worry about like he's you know, that's not OK. I feel I've. I feel him on that because I know when he's spoken about it, he feels bad for thinking about the money, you know, and that he should have like probably made maybe felt more around how he was being treated. But he was so brainwashed into what this was that you had to perform a certain way and it's your fault that we're not getting money.

1:00:21 I mean, to feel like that kind of pressure on you at that age, it's just. It's not OK. It's not OK. Yeah, Oh God. So I guess as the time went on, you know, they are losing, they're losing followers and the the vibe generally shifted. They had their core group, yeah, people that were still loving on them and whatever. But really having lost these sponsorships and and viewer, the amount of views that they were getting things. Oh. Sorry, can I ask you, do you did you ever get into this watching this stuff?

1:00:55 Because it's not vlogging like this isn't as big a thing now. Thank God. Yeah, I mean, it's still around. But I mean, I know my kids. I would watch like those, you know, like his name Ryan, that kid Ryan and on YouTube and stuff. And I used to do my head in. But have you ever got into watching that was I've never got into it. Whereas there's, there are people who are, you know, very much, yeah, go to these particular pages. I just can't. Imagine. Do they? They must watch it like they watch TV. Yeah.

1:01:22 You know, it's it. It's. Yeah. No, I've never. I never have. I've never been invested. I hated my kids listening to it like let alone. My kids have never. I mean, we've kept our kids away from YouTube. Yeah, my kids don't don't really watch YouTube at all anymore. Now it's more like, you know, I kind of look this up on YouTube and like, yeah, you can do that. Yeah. But yeah, no, but that was one, because that was one that like got me a bit of the whole, oh, I can't do this like this whole unwrapping things, you know, or whatever.

1:01:47 You're talking about now, Yeah, Yeah, right. Yeah. Yeah, that was one that bloody billion. Oh yeah. Yeah. No, he's he's absolutely. He's an absolute. They've made an absolute fortune in that family. Yeah, yeah, insane. But that's probably the one I've watched the most of. Yeah, but I wouldn't even say, certainly not weekly, you know, thing that we're watching or daily, let alone. Yeah, but I wouldn't even know how much they posted. But yeah, like I can't even. I don't really get the whole watching them.

1:02:14 But no, yeah, there's obviously a lot of people who do. Yeah, there must be. Yeah. I mean, if people are still doing it, yeah, Yeah. So around like as over the next probably couple of years, you know, they kept vlogging, but things were declining and the relationship between Ruby and Jodie really started to cement. Interesting. And so Ruby basically became like a business partner to Jodie in her connections. Yeah, cult. Cult. But so 'cause basically at one point in in 2022, like it, the eight passengers page just stops.

1:02:54 Things just stop being put on it. It sort of did filter a little bit. It was like lessening and lessening, but all of a sudden one day, no more, it just didn't. There was four months that went by with no posting whatsoever and everyone was a bit like without Chico, like what the hell like so I mean, I yeah, I wasn't anyone who was watching that to be. I know there's people who have followed her, obviously then from the get go of this. And so she was famous. I mean, to them. Yeah, to them she was.

1:03:22 I I mean, yeah, I had no idea who this person was. Not until we probably hit about now, about now. Same. So yeah, four months ago. And she's not online at all. I mean, what does the hell has happened to this whole family when they just disappear, when they've been there every single day for, you know, what was it, 4 years, Five years? About 2015. Years 2015 they started and they stopped. Yeah, 2022. So yes, seven years have been online. You know, one of the children literally was born whilst they started.

1:03:48 It's insane. Yeah. So then all of a sudden she pops up on another YouTube channel with Jodie Hildebrand as her business partner. Moms of truth. Vomit. Now this YouTube channel is interesting. They basically sit on a couch and preach their shit to people. And so it's not a vlog style, it's it's. Completely different. The show. It's the show, yeah. It's like they've produced. Their It's a talk show, yeah. And they discuss all of Jodie's wise teaching. So because at this point like and this, what they're saying is that that Ruby has trained under Jodie and is now a what she call herself a fitness.

1:04:37 I've actually got it written down. You, you keep going and I'll find. It OK yeah. So she trained in this style of coaching and so that she was able to coach other families on their, you know, troubles with their teens and. The and what have you. Other thing to note is that Hildebrandt had lost her license at this point. Yes. So yeah. So she was actually not a able to practice. This just, it was suspended for 18 months. Yeah. Yeah. She because she had clients who she was releasing private confidential information about to the church and to the university, to BYU, like they're all LinkedIn with this BYU as well, which is all really weird.

1:05:20 Yeah. So there was she had basically given client information around. She talked to the church about clients who were using were watching porn like as if, you know, they watched it once, but no, they're addicted to porn. So she was actually telling the church that these men were porn addicts and all these sorts of things men were losing. They were losing their jobs and stuff over it because that's such a no, no in that community that they were. Yeah. Being shunned by people and like, being kept out of the church then because, oh, God, you're, you're evil.

1:05:49 It was consolidating what she was putting to them of saying you're evil with this because other people were then judging them as well, but on false information. Really. Yeah. So. Yeah. Really gross. So she was, it was proven that she was doing that. And so she lost her license for 18 months. Yeah, so she was then saying that she was a life coach because that's unregulated and anyone can be a life coach and say that they're a life coach. So she's now coming across as a life coach, although she still told people she was a psychologist.

1:06:19 Yes, yeah, but I mean technically she's got the qualification, but she's just not licensed. Yeah, in it anymore now. Well, I just. Forgot to mention that bit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. God. So yeah, they, they would show up on this show every week, whatever the two of them, and they would spout their absolute disgusting shit. Mm hmm. But in the background, too. Hildebrand had moved in to the Frankie home. Yep. So at this point, Cherie was getting ready to go off to college and she was a couple of weeks off moving out of home and.

1:06:52 And she got told by Ruby you need to move all your stuff out of your room now because Jodie's moving in. Yeah. Now Kevin describes this time as unusual because. Obviously. Because so #1 Hildeprint had this $5,000,000 Mega Mansion Compound compound. That's a good way to describe it. Down in a southern part of Ivan's in Ivan's, Utah, which was about a four hour drive, I think, from from where they were living in Salt Lake City. Somerville. It's Springville. Sorry. Springville. Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, so she'd come up to live with them because she was experiencing some, like, troubles and she thought she was possessed by a demon.

1:07:39 And so when she moved into the house, so first of all, Sherry, Sherry was kicked out of her room and Jodie moved in there. And then Kevin was saying that he'd come home and like the lights. It's actually very funny. The lights would flick on and off. Someone Like, You know, and Jodie would have these like demonic possession type turns where she'd be like, you couldn't talk to her. She was possessed and she was in the corner like shaking and her eyes were flicking back in her head. Float around the place like it was.

1:08:16 So friggin bizarre.

1:08:21 So anyway, I think, well so the way Kevin describes it is that Jodie, sorry that Ruby was so worried about Jodie that she used to, at the start she would go up every four hours and check on her overnight, make sure she was OK. Then it became every hour and then she said to Kevin, well I might as well just stay the night with her. Stay. In her room and look after her overnight. After her. So one day Sherry came home from university to get some stuff, some more things out of her room to take back to college or to university.

1:08:57 And she walked into a room and there was like massage oil and candles on the bedside table. And she's like, I knew immediately that mum and Jodie were having an affair. Like we're in a ring. When she's interviewed about it, she's very like there was a relationship and then like I said, you think it got to, it became physical and she's like, I look, I, I don't know. And then she just gives this. Yeah, knowing and knowing Green, but she said in the book, and I think it's actually later, it's kind of like out there now that they absolutely were in a sexual relationship together.

1:09:30 So OK, but then take that as what you will, but she's so homophobic. She's so homophobic. Like just insane. She's her. She's a horrible, horrible person. Yeah. And yet she's having. And you can tell their videos, their connections. Videos become more and more intimate. They touch each. Other on. The leg, they sit so close to each other it would make me want to vomit. Like saying if Peter wanted to sit that close to me I'd be like Nah, Nah Nah Nah, too close, too close, back off. I can't even, no.

1:10:03 So OK, that's what's happening, right? Unbeknownst to poor old Kev who thinks they're just platonically sleeping in bed together like a fucking idiot. Really. Fucking idiot. Really. But what Jodi and well, what Jodie decides and then tells Ruby to do. And Ruby is under Jodie's spell for sure, like Ruby. Jodie says jump, Ruby says how high basically says that this separation now needs to happen between Kevin and Ruby because Kevin, who was once Jodie's golden head boy in these men's groups that she would run, she then started to turn on him.

1:10:42 And in the groups, he said the correct. Really, like, bizarre. Like, I was all of a sudden that, you know, this piece of shit. Yeah. Whereas before, I was always, you know, Kevin always does that brilliantly. Kevin, do you tell us how you manage that? And Kevin, this. And then all of a sudden, it was like, well, yeah, Not Kevin. Yeah. He's now a porn addict. Yeah. What? That's something you've said before about everyone else. Yeah. She had total MO. 100% and so and she said he was like he had distorted thinking.

1:11:11 And that was a whole thing, the distortion. Yeah. So that was what she used to talk to chat about, too. Yeah. Everything. Everyone had distortions. Like if you did it like, was like a distortion was like a bad behavior. And you don't want distortions in your life. So if someone else did something that was, you know, a distortion, then you can't have them in your life because you can't have distortion. Yeah. It's the weirdest word. I can't. Yeah, I know, it's weird. It doesn't really mean anything.

1:11:34 No, she just made that up. Because of that, Jodie's convinced Ruby that Chad and Kevin, for the same reasons, need to move out of the home and have separation from the family. Ruby makes Kevin now this even fucking blows my mind. He literally comes home from work one day at 5:00 and she's like, you need to move out. And he's like, OK, yeah. Weak. Weak as fucking Pierce. Oh, and Chad, as he was 17 was told the exact same thing, but he wasn't allowed to live with Chad because they needed separation from each other.

1:12:08 Yeah, so sorry, he wasn't allowed to live with Kevin. Yeah, because they needed separation. For Yeah, we'll do this for you, Toby. What so? Far Kevin moves out, gets himself an apartment. Yeah, Chad moves out, gets himself an apartment and a job because even though he's been on fucking this wildly successful YouTube channel for seven years, yeah, he actually doesn't have have any of his own money at the at this exact same time. So then Kevin calls Sherry and tells her what's going on and says you're not allowed to contact me.

1:12:40 I'm to have no contact. He was totally. 12 months, yes, from anyone in the family. And he just, he goes that money. And he goes, yeah, sure, Ruby then, sorry, Sherry then messaged him after this, 'cause she was like, Oh my God, after processing that, like, that doesn't seem right. I need to talk to Dad more. Yeah, she messaged him and he basically said you cannot contact me again. Kevin has then told Ruby that Sherry messaged him. Ruby has then fully banished Sherry from the family she cut her off from.

1:13:12 So they were paying her rent or whatever at university and her car insurance or something like and health insurance I think they were paying for. Yeah, right. Cut it all off. Cut it all off. What a fucking sack of shit. What a sack of shit, how could you do that? There's no way you could do that to your own child. That's that's so mentally unwell, so fucked up and the fucking wanker Kevin just allowing that to happen to not only himself, but his kids. Yep. And to say you know well you can't have contact with.

1:13:37 17 year olds just out there in the world not have not. And he's not allowed to contact you and. And he's out there. He's got to find somewhere to live on his own. Are you fucking kidding? Planet. Is that in any way normal? Oh, it's just not I. Can't. And that's where I just go with with Kevin. You're as bad as anyone in this. Yep, you are a weak piece of shit. Yep. I have no time for him. No. He's a sucker shit, too. Yeah, I mean, and he's left his children, his four younger children, in a house that he knows where this woman thinks she's possessed by the devil and all this shit.

1:14:12 Who? Just walks away from that going. But hang on, there's some weird shit going in that house and I don't know, but I'll just leave and leave you guys to it to sort that out. Like with my young children there too, and my other older children who you know, are now. Oh God. Anyway, the other thing that gets me about this is Ruby rings in one day. So he's not allowed to contact Ruby, but Ruby can contact him now. Mind you as well, he's also still paying child support for all six, six children, right?

1:14:44 OK, so OK, she's taking his money and whatever, doing whatever with it. OK, yes I know children need money to live but. No, but if you go kicking him out like that and like giving him no access. Also got her and, well, Jodie's money as well at this time because they had this business together, so their business was earning money, whatever that's between them. That bit, yeah, but which he just did whatever she said anyway. Well, this is it. He wasn't paying that to like sit, like to sort of go, yeah, yeah, I care for my kids.

1:15:11 He was to do it because he was being told to. Yeah, that's what I can't stand. It's the not that you wouldn't pay it. Yeah. It's the fact of only doing it because you're being dictated and told to do this. Like, yeah. Question things, mate. Question. Things come on. So he then Ruby rings in one day, and they hadn't had contact for like literally almost 12 months at this point, right? And she's like, if I send a document to you, if I put a document in front of you, will you sign it? Not knowing what it is?

1:15:39 This is an exercise in trust. And this is part of what we need to do to get back together now. He wanted nothing more than to get back. Together, he was literally like, I'll do anything you tell me. Anything. And so he was like, yes, absolutely. I'll sign anything you want me to sign. I trust you. I trust you implicitly. Trust her as far as I could throw her? Nope. So she does that right? She puts this document in front of him. He has covers any content of it. He signs it. Oh, Dick. You know what?

1:16:04 You know what the document was to be able to sell the house. Oh my God. So she sells the house or put actually, sorry, she puts it up to rent out to start with, right, Right. But they're moving out. Ruby, Jodie and the four kids. Yeah, are moving out. OK OK right. So they are in the process of all of this and they're moving into Jodie's compound. Yeah, OK. OK. Because like during this time, Ruby was spending more and more time at the compound, Ivan's with the at the compound, but not the children.

1:16:43 So because quite often Sherry would call CPS and call the police and ask for welfare checks because she knew that the children, the young children. So at this point we've got like about 7-8 year old and sort of 10 year old ish at home by themselves. Yep, the four youngest will often left and I'm not talking left to go up to the shops and get milk, which is not OK either. No, like days days. Days and days. So she would call and ask for them to go and do welfare checks. Now this gets me. So they would arrive at the house and there'd be no answer, so they couldn't do anything.

1:17:22 Or what? Well, no, because I heard one account where they knocked on the window or something and they saw a kid. Come to the window, they'd see the children. Yep. And so they were like, oh, we've seen that the kids are alive and well, but nobody answered the door, so we had to go away. Yeah, like I'm sorry. But you didn't even see an adult the issue. Is that they're unsupervised and no adults in the house for days on end. Yeah, you needed to speak to someone, but they classified that as being yet checked.

1:17:47 Well done. Yeah. No, you haven't spoken to those children. Do they have food? Do they have access to, you know, what, are they going to school? Are they? Do they have an adult looking after them? And they didn't know. And so they that sort of, it just was just everything's fine. We've seen, we've seen them. That's enough. Not spoken to them, not spoken to anybody else. Like they just hadn't apparently legally it just there was nowhere else they could go. For some reason that doesn't seem that doesn't seem right.

1:18:10 I think things have slightly changed since this because of it. But yeah, it's at that. And that doesn't sit well. But Sherry regularly would contact and. Yeah, well, the neighbors would contact her and say, oh, the kids have been left at home again. And yeah, the neighbors, I think they hold some guilt in all of this as well because. Prior to this, they, they were very much a a community like around the neighborhood. And they were, they all knew the Frankie family and we're all they, they all got along and all, you know, shared in things out in the yard, you know, and with the kids and would have barbecues or whatever have, you know, these things.

1:18:42 Particular neighbors then were, you know, put to the side and wouldn't speak to them. And, and one neighbor in particular talks about the fact that she kind of removed herself because she just found it all very weird and couldn't, couldn't agree with the parenting that was happening. And, and she just found herself in a position of, oh, I just can't condone this, but was watching the kids from afar, going, what do I do to help them? And she would yet contact Sherry and yeah, like, because it wasn't OK.

1:19:08 So sad. Yeah. So, so. So yeah. Ruby was spending a lot more time at the compound. But then eventually they did move a couple. Well, three of the three younger children definitely spent a significant amount of time down there at the end. Yeah. So at the time of, I guess this all coming to a head, the three youngest children were, I'm gonna say, living, but they were being held captive. Yeah. Yeah. In the compound in Ivan's. Yeah. And what the way that this all came about is so fucking sad. You can see this you just need to Google the video and it's basically doorbell cameras or CCTV from people's homes where are who's the youngest boy of the family.

1:19:57 He escapes from the compound one morning and he goes to neighbors houses and the 1st. The house he rang the doorbell. There was no answer. So he goes a few houses down. Knocks. On there quite fast, like very big blocks of land, obviously, where they are in big houses, all of them. But yeah, so he goes through the next one, which is fair way down the road, yeah. I think it was like 400 yards. I don't know, but it's. And he had like only socks on and it was like desert, desert heaps. This is this is arid desert.

1:20:32 Yeah. Where she lives. Yeah. So he knocks on the door or rings the doorbell and he waits there for a few seconds and then he obviously thinks nobody's home. He starts to walk away. And then an older man comes to the door. This man says, how can I help you, son? And he said I need 2 favors. Yeah. And the old man goes, well, what are they? And and he goes, I need you to take me to the nearest police station. And the man sort of with that comes out of his house. Yeah. And he goes come and sit down.

1:21:02 He had a like a little patio chairs. Even the way he little he says, the R says to him like actually even just that one favour will do. Yeah, that'll be. Oh my God. Because the other favour, I'm dare say is like, perhaps food order. Yeah. Like, you know, he's like prioritizing. You know, I just think, just get me to the police. Yeah. And the thing was what he explained as well, what I said to him was that I know I'm in a lot of trouble and so the police should just take me away. Yeah, he it was his fault.

1:21:26 Like he thought it was his fault. He was the bad one. Yeah. So this the, the 911 call that this man makes, He's absolutely heartbreaking. He's. He calls 911 and says they need police and they he starts to describe the condition that R is in. With that his you can see his wife back and forth in and out of the house getting food and water for R and they don't really know what to do. The the wife is panicking. You can see she's like in a really heightened state, 'cause I think she's worried that I think ones gonna come and get you.

1:21:56 Can kind of hear her say like announce and they need to be now. Yeah, like they don't. It was almost like prioritising an ambulance for him over the police at this point, Like kind of stuff. I think she recognised how malnourished he was. How? Significant the injuries were because what the man describes, I think his name was Don, what he describes to the 911 dispatch is that he's got significant wounds around his ankles and wrists. The tissue was basically it. Was down the. Bone apparently the smell was horrific and he was in filthy clothes and he like he looks so malnourished his little legs now.

1:22:35 He's a 12 year old boy at this point. Yeah, he's 12. This. You could put your fingers around his legs like he. That's how small he was. Yeah. Oh God. And he said he was really thirsty and really hungry, so he hadn't had any water. So anyway, with that, I think every police officer in the Ivans area is dispatched and two ambulances because what is asked is, is there anybody else at the house? And the Don sort of relays the fact that there are two other or what are thinks are two other of his sisters in the home.

1:23:16 What transpires actually is. So basically then the police come and ambulances come. They start tending to our unfortunate like one of the ambulance officers is seen on police CC body Cam footage. Sorry, she's breaking down. She. Couldn't cope. Many of the police officers admit they were breaking down as well. And off to the side, they would literally remove themselves from him and remove themselves and were crying. And these are like, I mean, the the earliest of men, like, you know, that have seen a lot.

1:23:47 There's one particular one in one of the documentaries who he, he clearly looks like he's a man who's seen stuff and LED a life himself or whatever, like, you know that. But he said he goes, this was the one that got me. Yeah. I can't. It was awful. Yeah, so they go to Jodie's compound and. They So from an it's an hour from the moment that rings that doorbell, yeah. That within an hour they've decided we need to be entering that property. And now to enter the property of Jodie Hildebrand's house, they don't need a warrant because what has transpired already with what R has disclosed, they believe there could potentially be two children in in danger.

1:24:28 In a similar state. One worse and they were actually fearful that there could be dead children cause what R said to them was I haven't seen my sisters in months, a month. So he he so he believed that there were two other sisters in the home, but he hadn't seen them in a month. So the police were like of the opinion that we could be finding dead children with with his. He did say he'd heard one of them, yeah, But he hadn't heard the other, no. So yeah, that, I mean, in the state that he was in, if any trial was any worse than him, they could be dead.

1:25:04 So this was very, very serious of that point. So they were allowed to just enter without waiting for signatures off from judges and things. They were allowed to just go and enter. So yeah, within an hour they stormed that property basically, and now the body Cam footage again, you can see of what goes on, do you? Think it's bizarre how Jodie come so she's obviously seen the police arrive at her neighbour's house. No, I reckon she didn't. From where? When you look at where she is, I don't think she could.

1:25:33 But when she answers the door, she's already on the phone to her attorney. Because AR had left the house, she couldn't find him. OK. OK. That's why I reckon that. Is no, yeah, that's fair. That's actually very fair. Yeah, yeah. I think that was more the point she knew that he got. Him. Yeah, because he'd actually escaped once before. Yes. He escaped in the middle of the night about 1:00 AM, and Jodie found him at about 3:45 AM hiding behind a a rock somewhere in someone else's yard. So. And he got severely punished for that.

1:26:05 He got locked in a safe, basically safe room for that. And that was why he was actually being bound because of that escape attempt, because what the police found when they went into the house was E, who was 10 years of age, and they found her in a closet in a upper bar. Empty closet There was no nothing in there They had no possessions She. Was literally sitting on the floor with her legs crossed. The officers didn't actually know whether she was male or female at the start because her hair had been Hacked Off.

1:26:43 Like cut it. Was all yeah and shaved one even shaved. Not even shaved was just like hacked scissors. Yeah. And she did not say a single word, I think for five hours or 4 hours. Four. Hours. Yeah, yeah. And she again, literally her arms and her legs, you could put your fingers around how small they were. Like there's a point where you can see in the video of her sitting there and her elbows and her arms. And I just went, oh, God, it's awful house, house. How malnourished she was as well. And again, you know, same sort of similar sort of markings around her wrists and things too, but like, they're just left to oh God, it's awful.

1:27:24 And so they'd been there for a couple of months. Is that right? At the time they'd been. Helen, they'd been the other like a month. I know R had definitely been there the month and obviously I think E as well. I think they'd been there for 2/2. So she had seen her prior to that. Yeah, yes, I think when they first got there they were together, yeah, in a room together. But then they got separated. Because in this and in this compound that was possible, absolutely possible. You could massive, it was huge.

1:27:51 So it's. Basically one level. I mean, we're talking desert, you know, It was one level on top of the, like, on top of the ground, on ground. Level. Yeah. And then it was underground. Then there was 2 levels underground. Who was it? So there was. This that, that concrete basement. And then they had the, the maid basement basically, right. And you know, what the police found was basically doomsday prep shit. They found so much food and canned items and refrigerators and freezers full of food. And I mean, and then they found in the basement, they found this big safe door.

1:28:26 And the police officers asked Jodie what the combination was because they were afraid of what they might find. Well, they thought that. They're still thinking that at this point. They still thought there was another sister that was still missing. So yeah. And she's like, oh, I don't know, I don't remember the this. Anyway, so one of the officers, the Sergeant actually goes down there and he's like, oh, look, I'm just gonna try 123456. And it worked. Yeah. So opens it up and look, there wasn't anyone in there, but there were.

1:28:53 But what was in there was awful. Or yeah, so there was a bucket that had cayenne pepper and honey in it and like a paintbrush, basically. Yeah, so that was what was on like. So on ours wrists and ankles, these wounds that he had, which were from rope and from handcuffs that were had been put around him and had worn on his wrists and created these wounds. So then on these wounds which we're going through, the bone they had, then they would make this paste up cayenne pepper and honey and put that on the wounds, then put cling wrap around that and then duct tape.

1:29:28 Like the pain of that, the amount of pain that would 'cause that is torture. There is no other word for that. Utter torture. I can't even imagine how painful that would be for him to go through. They would do and they, yeah literally would make this paste up to do. That and apparently there were buckets of it all around the house. Yeah, fucking weird. And even the house. Because it was reapplied and reapplied like they were even they found like, you know, previously used cling wrap that was covered in this pace that had been taken off to then put the next one on.

1:30:01 It was literally reapplied and reapplied and reapplied. They found chains, shackles, rope, handcuffs. They found all manner of restraints in the house. There wasn't a lot of furniture in the house was. It it wasn't it very sparse, very sparse from the body Cam footage. I mean, I don't know, you didn't see a lot of that top level, that ground level. I guess the living space, I guess it was a lot more of the basements that you saw in it. But yeah, a lot. It seemed very, I mean, well, the, the bedroom where he was or the the walk in robe that she was sitting in was very empty.

1:30:35 I mean, there was nothing, nothing, no, not a single bit of clothing hanging in that wardrobe. So what you're probably all wondering is where was Ruby at this time? Yeah. One where the other other two, where were the other kids there? So there's obviously, obviously Chad and Sherry, you know, they're safe and away, but there's still two more children that were in her care at that point as well. The two middle girls, where were they? So what actually transpired was that one of the girls had a dentist appointment.

1:31:02 Now they were living at the time with a friend of the family. Well, no. I believe they were with Ruby and she'd received a call, no? They were living with a friend of the family but one of them had a dentist appointment that Ruby had to take them to. So Ruby had actually gone from Ivan's back to Springville to take this daughter to her dentist appointment, had dropped the daughter back with the friends who she was staying with. OK had driven back and as she was driving back to Ivan's is when she found out.

1:31:37 Oh, so another documentary tells it very different. Oh really? Oh. Tommy was that well there that Ruby was with them, the 2 girls, OK. And I think they were at a sporting event of some sort for one of them and that there was friends there who were part of the connections group. And this woman, she Ruby had got a phone call and clearly it was that there's shit going down at Ivan's. So she turned to this woman and just said, oh look, I've got a bit of a family emergency, they've got to take it. Would you mind having the girls for the night?

1:32:09 And so she be knows like did the whole oh sure, we can take them home. Yeah, they can come stay with us for the night. No worries. They were only meant to that's there was sort of what they what that had presented it as interesting. There's two very different stories. Yeah, yeah. OK. So either way. Either way, it kind of makes sense. But these people? These kids ended up with. Those with someone else. Worked either way. But yeah, so it was basically they were at this house though that they that these people who had their them in their care had zero understanding of what was going on back at Ivan's.

1:32:40 Oh yeah, is what? I guess that's the big, the biggest bit of it that the police are trying to find where these two girls are and they're looking into things of where they are and they find video footage of them and try and track down this car they get into. Then they take them to this house. So then they the police recover this doorstep and saying can we please see the girls well? No, they asked to see the wife first. Yeah, the wife, yeah, because that's who they were tracking the car. Well, that was the the the number plate they had.

1:33:05 And so is she home? Yeah, Yeah. Because I was still like, you know, we assume the girls are in this vehicle and that that's who's got them. So yeah, spoke to her and, and, and said to her, well then can we see the girls? And she was a bit apprehensive at first kind of going, but you know why? And and a bit like, you know, I mean, you would they're not your kids. And you're sort of like going, well, why the police wanting to act, you know, someone else's children, like you just come and take them away or what the hell.

1:33:27 Yeah. So I can fully understand their reaction. And she was very apprehensive. But and the girls do sort of come out, but they're very scared. Yes, really, really scared because. They've been told to fear the police. Yeah. This is it. They've been told never to talk to the police. The police are untrustworthy. They've really brainwashed the kids in that sense. And they, I mean, I guess Jodie and Ruby also felt that or believed that they talked themselves into the exact same thing. Oh, totally. So I guess right at this point, Jodie's arrested and so is Ruby.

1:34:01 Once she gets back to the house, she's arrested. She says not a word. Not like where? I'm like kids. No. Where is where's R? Where's E? Are they OK? When they say to you don't talk to the police, like, you know, until your lawyer's present, Yeah, they don't mean that. You can't say yeah, sure, I'll have a glass of water. Yeah, or you can ask after your fucking children. Totally. I mean, yeah, OK, Yeah. What you do and say, don't say can be held against you. What you don't say can be held against you.

1:34:31 It equally goes the fact that you wouldn't answer a single question even about can I help you and get you a glass of water and barely you'd get a nod of her head. She didn't even do that. She just like. Stared. Oh, that's so creepy. So creepy. Jodie's a bit more relaxed and a bit more talkative. Well. She talks herself. She just thinks that shit don't stink and God, yeah, they're like, she thinks she's so much smarter than them. Oh, doesn't. She. She's like, you know, I'm a psychologist. Yeah, yeah, that makes you worse.

1:35:00 Like, I know, I know what people do. I know people twist words. So I'm not talking to you because I don't know how you're gonna twist my words. And the police officer says, luckily for both of both sides, yeah, it's filmed and it's audio recorded. So we've actually got backup. And that's for your protection as much as it is for ours. We don't want anything twisted here. We just want to know what you're trying to say. And what? Yeah. Why the hell? Well, my. Well, then she goes, Well, then why has my lawyer told me not to say anything to you?

1:35:28 Because your lawyer knows you're fucking guilty. Yep. Oh man, like it just you have. Tortured 2 young children. Yeah, yeah. And to be honest, as much as like Ruby's interview like that is is just ridiculous and how she she does that I can't even how she just stands there and refuses like sits there and then stands there later another video like refuses to answer the place when they're literally asking her the most simplest of things. It just kills me. Worse than that though, I find, is that they then bring in Kevin.

1:36:00 Well, Kevin. Ruby rings Kevin when she's on her way down from Springville to when she's on her way from Springville to Ivan's. She rings Kevin, and he sees her number come up on his phone. And now they haven't spoken since he signed those papers, right? Yeah. To sell the house or whatever it was with to do with the house that he didn't even know he'd done that because he just signed something blindly. Fuckward, dickhead. So he's delighted to get this call from Ruby. She says to him, you need to get to Ivan's police station to pick up our children, right?

1:36:33 And he just goes, OK. Because I'm a minion, he. Gets in the car, he thinks, Oh my God, all my Christmases have come at once. I get to see Rudy needs me. I get to see my children. I'm finally going to be back in the fold. He gets 4 hours car ride. He gets to Ivan's, gets to the police station, says to the police officers, I'm I'm Kevin. Frankie. Immediately he's a suspect. They then start questioning him and it's pretty evident pretty quickly that he has no idea what's going on. But no idea in the sense of that you're culpable like as in.

1:37:09 Yeah, to the point where he doesn't even know the welfare of his own children, 100 percent, 100%. Like, how could you as a parent not know that your kids are like, I wouldn't, you know, even to know. Did such and such go to school today or have they been sick or, you know, how did sports go for this kid or did this kid have a concert today? How did that go? Do we need to have an appointment at the school and chat about their challenges they're having like. Nothing. Nothing. He hadn't had contact with Ruby about the kids for months.

1:37:41 He hadn't spoken to any of his children for 12 months. And even when they do say to him that the two younger ones are in hospital. Oh, not what? Like no, no panic. Are they OK? Because there's no. He says in that documentary, though, he didn't know how to react because he didn't want to implicate Ruby. Well, fuck Ruby. But he didn't think that way. I know, but like. Fuck Ruby. Yeah. Fuck Ruby. Totally Fuck Ruby. Oh my God. But he was worried because at one point they asked him who called you to tell you to come here?

1:38:14 Yeah, right. And he's like, I, I, I'm not going to say. Oh, you're a Dick. I can't speak, makes me so angry. Yeah, it makes me so mad. Oh, he just the enabling the weakness of him like step up mate for your kids they. Need you to not be a weak piece of shit. They need you to be strong. Yep, they need you to take charge of this situation. They need you not to pander to their mother. Take that bitch down like it's done. You need to stop there. So if he had just stepped in so much earlier with this and like not allowed any of this to occur, he could have done that.

1:38:54 He could have put things in place to stop. This for sure. And not saying that like they needed to be then, you know, jail time necessarily for people because you could have avoided it getting to that. Yeah. Dickhead. Although they are with. Any. Oh, absolutely. Totally. So where are we now? We're at basically at the point where, so Kevin, the police have actually put the kids on, well, sorry, Child Protective Services have put the kids on a 72 hour medical hold. Absolutely. What Which is the right thing to do?

1:39:26 Gotcha. What that actually means, though, is that Kevin's not allowed to see them. Nobody. Nobody from the family is allowed to see. Not neither should they like, I mean, at this point in time, we need to find out who's done this to them. That's right. And to. Gather all of the information. Like, yeah, I mean, you don't know who's then going to be able to get into that room and, I don't know, finish things off, manipulate the children to say things, tell them not to talk. And you need those kids about to say what's actually happened and be honest, but also be safe.

1:39:50 Like it's just yeah, no, no, no. Yeah. So that's all good. And well, I believe that they are then released into the custody of foster carers. Now we don't know. Nothing was sort of said about that, which is completely fair and as it should have been. I hope they went to family but we don't know. We don't know. All we know is like, even to this day, Kevin is not a guardian of the children. He is now. Oh, has he just recently got custody? Has he got custody? Oh, OK. Last I already had was still fighting for it.

1:40:21 No, he got custody recently of the four younger children. Oh, the three younger children, because I. Think the oldest, yeah. The elder of the fourth now. Now of age. Yeah, so. Basically I feel about that. Yeah, well, I don't, I don't know either actually. I don't. My only thing with that is that Sherry and Chad are a part of it as well. That's right. And I that will be my only. Yeah. Saving Grace I think Chad's a lot more involved because he and his dad have maintained a relationship. Sherry and her dad are on the path to reconciliation.

1:40:54 Yeah, she, she's got a very good attitude to it. Yeah, I think, you know, I don't. I wouldn't want to be in her shoes to make those decisions, but she seems to have her head screwed on of like being able to know that that's her dad, that's her siblings, and then what's best for them and being able to maintain a relationship that works for managing all. Of that. But she still calls him Kevin and she doesn't call him. She actually calls her old school teacher and his wife mum and dad. Yeah. Yeah, because she feels they've been more.

1:41:24 Than and they have been those two people are like the salt of the earth, aren't they? Like they are what? OK, that is when you think of like Mormon, that is what you you think of them like. They are lovely, genuinely down to earth people. You can tell they love Sherry. Yeah, so, so much. And genuinely, they're. All thinking about it. Absolutely nothing more to it than that. Like it's. They have her best interests at heart. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. So thankfully, Sherry's got that. Yeah. Which is wonderful.

1:41:51 And she's got that support from them. And she calls the mom and dad to this day. And she has said she will never see Ruby. So let's get to all of what actually happened. So the women initially were charged with two counts of aggravated assault on a minor. Yeah. And were went to prison straight from where they were arrested. Yeah, awaiting a trial or whatever was going to come of it. Yeah. They both ended up pleading guilty. Yes to 4 count, 4 counts. 4 counts, 4 counts each. Yeah, 4 counts. Of aggravated.

1:42:25 Child abuse. Child abuse, yeah. Now, when Jodie's hearing was first, I believe and she. Well, no, I think what I was at the same time prior to that in that they were. So they were both charged with the same thing. And Ruby overheard a conversation where she worked out because in all of this she was I've done nothing wrong and not I there's nothing, I'm not guilty, all these sorts of things. I don't know how you could. But anyway, in the end, she actually overheard a conversation where she realized that Jodie was blaming her for what had happened to the.

1:43:01 Kids. Oh yeah, Yeah. And that was where she went well. I reckon that was like, I don't think she accidentally. No, I don't think there was any accident. I think authorities knew what they were doing there. Yeah. And we're like. And so once she realized that that she was going to be put in it by Jodie. Yeah. And that that she didn't. And I rightly, I agree with this about the other thing I'll probably agree with with Ruby on. Yeah. Fuck that bullshit. I'm Jodie. You're going down. She decided to plead guilty and to testify against Jodie.

1:43:29 Yeah, which meant that when Jodie then found out that that's what was going to happen, Jodie backed down to and also pled guilty. So we've got so then both of them pleading guilty. Just go back one step though. When they were first arrested and put into prison, Jodie rang Kevin and there was a conversation they had and it's recorded. So you can actually hear this for yourself. It is the most awful fucking phone call. Again, wake as shit, Kevin. But he says to Jodie, sorry, no, no, sorry. He says to Ruby on the phone, you know, all the, you know, the kids are in hospital.

1:44:05 And she says, oh, that's a bit overkill, no need for that. What the hell? These are kids that were nearly dead. They were nearly dead like one of the physicians who treated them basically said had they gone on for a few more days especially are he probably would have died. Wow days days away. They were so stubborn. But for him it would have been sepsis, I think, because his wounds were so. Badly infected. Yeah, the wounds were horrific. Yeah. So she's just an absolute evil piece of shit to be thinking that.

1:44:39 Not, not did. She didn't ring Kevin to say Oh my God, are our kids OK? Are they alive? Like she wasn't even at Ivan's when this occurred. Like, I don't know how many days she had been away, you know, was it? And how long had she seen E or R? Because in the thing. That I read she'd left at 3:00 that morning to get to pick up her daughter for the dentist appointment by 7:30 or something. But in that compound, if Rs not saying E is Ruby not seeing one of that is is Jodie inflicting this stuff? I mean, we don't.

1:45:11 And we don't know. So she's not even asking quite the right questions at this point for me. Yeah, of any of it. She's not asking any questions. She's adamant, oh, that's a bit much. That needs to be in hospital. So. And I think Kevin's response, I mean, because I find him a weak piece of shit, in hindsight, I'm like, yeah, did he? Did he just not realize just how bad it is because he hadn't seen them and wasn't allowed to see them? But surely people were explaining to him why they needed to be in that position of not being.

1:45:36 Well, the police officers in his original interview, yeah, said to him, they're malnourished. They're malnourished. They're emaciated. And he's like, what? Does that mean I'm like, what do you mean? What does that mean? That means the kids are not good. Like I, I, I'm just sort of a bit of insight into him. Then I went, You're not an overly intelligent person. Like he's a professor of engineering, Like maybe he's book smart. I don't know. Like life. Not smart, not smart. Yeah. Oh, God, yeah. But that phone call kills me.

1:46:07 But so also though later on which I felt we found out was found out was that she actually called Chad as well at this time. And her initial phone call with him, he he speaks about as being absolutely horrific. And he said it's actually the first time he found a voice and telling her what he thought. And he really went at her of like, you're wrong, you've done the wrong thing. And so he, he's, he reflects on that conversation to this day around, you know, how that impacted him of being able to one voice things, but also have her coming back at him going, no, no, I've done nothing wrong.

1:46:42 Because he hung up from that phone call too. And the next thing he found that he had no money in his bank account from his work on 8 passengers. She took all that money to pay for our lawyers. Yep, so well what she actually did, which this is so fucked up. Yeah, part of when Kevin signed this piece of paper, he must have signed a couple of different things because she withdrew all of the cash that they had, like, and literally withdrew it as cash, put it in a bag. Yeah, emptied all of the children's bank accounts, put all of that cash in a bag and it totaled something like $87,000.

1:47:18 And that bag of cash, it was seen by the police when they did their thorough search of the premises. Once they had a search warrant, they found that money, but they had nothing to do with it. They documented that it was there and left it there. What they think now has happened is that Ruby's lawyer has gained access to the house and taken that bag of money and is using that money as as part of her payment for defence. Yeah, right. Because nobody really actually knows what happened to that bag of money, right?

1:47:52 The police. The police certainly know that it existed. Yeah, but it's not there now. Right. OK. You know, Chad says it said the way he says it is that was, you know, it was used for his lawyers. But yeah, that's interesting that yeah, his assumption is that I guess in that sense, but yeah, but he said, so he has one more phone call with her a few weeks later. And in that phone call that's after she's realized that this is all shit. And he said that was a very interesting phone call where she apologized to him actually.

1:48:21 And like she he he says it was a very genuine phone call. She broke down crying and and he goes, I'm all I I totally understand people know that she has crocodile tears. Totally understand that that's what who she is and does that this was genuine and so he he he's he to this day doesn't have a relationship with her and he doesn't even think he ever will. But he at least appreciates the fact that that phone call, she she got it. Yeah, it it had maybe registered that this. Was not, even if he just needs to believe that.

1:48:51 Then yeah. Absolutely. Because for him, just for himself. To move on. It didn't do enough for him to go. Oh, great. Well, Mum, I'm gonna start a relationship with you now. It was, it was certainly not to that level, but it was at least enough for him to go, OK, good. Yeah. But I'm moving on my life away from you. Yeah. Yeah, I find this sentencing really interesting, the way they do it in Utah. So each charge comes with it, a range of sentence. Yeah. So as part of the plea deal that they did, both women did, was that they both pled guilty and they also agreed to serve consecutive sentences.

1:49:32 So what that means is that for each of those four charges, they will serve 11, the sentence for one charge, then served after that served the sentence for the next and the next and the next. Under the law in Utah, though, the the charges that they plead guilty for attract A1 to 15 year maximum. So minimum of one year, maximum of 15 years. Once they've served, they can serve the first charge at 100% of the sentence. The second, third and 4th charges they serve at 50% of what they're given. Right.

1:50:10 But but it's actually not up to the judge to impose a sentence. It's up to the parole board. So they've been sentenced to between 1 and 30 years. Yeah. In prison. Sorry, 4 and 30 years is it? Well, it's technically it's 4 and 60, but it's capped. At 30, it's capped at 30 because of this 50% reduction for the consecutive yeah sentences. Yeah. So between 4 and 30 years. So technically they could be out pretty bloody soon. So this all happened. They were sentenced in November 2023. Yeah, They already served some time up until that point.

1:50:47 So I believe they could actually be out next year if they get their minimums. I don't think they'll get, I don't think. They'll get more than that. But the extensive like what, what R&E were presented as at that point when they were arrested, I can't see that it would be that. I mean, I don't know in what world one year is enough for each of those charges. So I I would hope that any parole board would in any case of this would not give one year but what I was. Reading most sentences tend to fall somewhere in the middle, so people are thinking they'll probably serve somewhere around the.

1:51:26 15 year, I hope it's 15 years of the minimum. Yeah, I really do. Yeah, I think totally warrants that. Oh. So do I. The thing I can't comment though is they're both in the same prison. Yeah. Do you reckon they're doing? It gay for this day. They were gay before this, I know this. Is like, doesn't count, does it? I mean, I mean, I've heard that I think Jodie's got some health issues, but then I don't know how much I believe of that. So yeah, just oh, God, I can't with the both of them. I mean, surely at this point, I mean, yeah.

1:51:59 Are they are they having it off in there or are they avoiding each other like the plague because they now does one of them or both of them save the other one for who they are? Narcissistic sacks of shit. They're both. They're both sacks of shit. Yeah, I've read sort of psychologists, like actual real psychologists, not Jodie Hildebrand's reports on what they believe. And they their their strong belief that Jodie would be sorry. Ruby is the one I read about. Ruby would be diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder.

1:52:30 I haven't heard any. I haven't heard read a report on Jodie at all, but I'm fairly certain that that's got to be up there as well. Oh yeah, yeah. Which is interesting to have two of them in a relationship together. I think they're feeding off of each other. OK, you know, but. Yeah, they were building a different. Types of narcissism, I guess, too, in the way that they manipulated and worked from each other. Yeah, what they were both getting out of what their supply was. Yeah. Yep, they're just roast humans.

1:52:57 Absolutely. And I'm, I don't know about you, but I in this, there is a part of me that's like, I still think Kevin needs to cop some time too. And I know that there's no legal way of doing it, but morally step up for your kids. You were it's neglectful what he did. He left them in the situation and he he had enough information to know that that was not a safe environment. Yeah. So I mean, the fact that the that Sherry was contacting police regularly saying, you know, like they're being left alone and that he is floating around the cosmos, you know, well.

1:53:34 He didn't live that far away from it. He could have very easily. And he just followed her instructions of don't contact me and don't have any any part of this. Like who does that? Who? If you genuinely love your children, I would fight to the death for my children. I think most people would, but he's just oh. No, I don't know to just go. Yeah, yeah, sure, love. I'll. I won't see my children for 12 months. He was so enamoured by Ruby, so why to her? I don't know. Because even even I'm talking now pre Jodie coming into the picture in their vlogs, Yeah, she's not.

1:54:09 To me, she's not a likable person. No, I mean the way she yelled at them and. But but even you didn't see that in the vlogs early on, even just. But that was happening in the background. Apparently that's right. But I'm, I'm just looking from what she was putting out there right back in the early days, not knowing all of that stuff about the yelling and what her actual personality was like. Yeah, I didn't even like what I saw of her then in the clips that I've seen. Yeah, I guess that's a general, well, I guess it's personally a type who do that blogging sort of thing that I can't stand, that there's a fakeness to it that you can see.

1:54:41 Yeah, maybe that's what is. And you pick up, I don't know, something genuine about it was always like I was telling about that Ryan family. But before my kids used to watch. Their voices were great on me. And I'd be like, I can't, can you turn it off? I can't stand that fake. I'm excited about this bullshit when you're really not. You're just putting it on for the camera. Like, yeah, it's, yeah. Can you watch a video like a genuine, like, I'm talking 80s, nineties, when the VHS recorder would come out, you know, you know, and you hear families communicating with each other in very natural ways.

1:55:10 That is completely different sound to what these people present. For sure. Yeah, yeah. Yep, Yep. Yep, Oh, Yep. Nah, Nah, Goldberg style. You know the. Goldbergs. Oh guys, Anyone who hasn't watched The Goldbergs get on it I've. Got a vlog? It is. The best. Yes, that's exactly right. It's the best show. I love it. Oh, good. OK. Have. Is there anything else you want to get to? Because I do have a quote that I would like to end on. Go for it. Yeah. So this Sherry's book, which is well worth a read, is called In the House of My Mother, and in it she sort of sums up in a single paragraph the significance of their family story and why the public was so fascinating.

1:55:55 And I just thought, she's such an astute young woman. She's only 21. Oh no, she's engaged to be married. Her life's going good and that's her life's going really well, yeah. And she deserves that. She now wants to be out of the public eye, which I can totally understand. Sorry. She's happy to be in the public eye. She doesn't want her future husband or future children to be in the public. She. Beautifully posted like that, her photo of her engagement ring and everything, and then just went in her comment of it was like, this will be the last that I post.

1:56:20 Really. Like, yeah, she just isn't gonna put that stuff out in the world. Like that. So yeah, I think she's doing a lot of advocacy work for children who are part of these vlogging family. She puts a bill to state. So she's hoping that we'll eventually be in every state of America where that they now children who are involved in these these vloggings and things and need to be paid. And so it's now in in law in Utah that that children are paid for these things, which there is actually like a movement between in these vlogging worlds that women hate her, you know, because they they now have to pay their children for what they are on.

1:57:01 And there's also other stipulations. That is the fact that they are an employee and that what that, you know, with any person who is employed, there are conditions of how they can be treated. You know how long they can be filmed for, how long they, you know, between filming takes and having breaks and stuff that they have rights now which they didn't have before and they don't like. Good on her. A lot of amazing young woman. Oh, gotcha. She's incredible. Yeah, she wrote. Who knew that in the age of viral scandals and cancel culture, it would be the wholesome, family centred content of LDS vloggers that would capture the world's attention?

1:57:37 And who would have foreseen that my own family would come to embody both the wholesome ideal and the scandalous, becoming a cautionary tale of what happens when the line between authenticity and performance becomes blurred beyond recognition? Yeah. Oh yeah. Good on there. Let's hope Ruby and Jodie stay in prison for as long as humanly possible. I never buddy pick up a camera again and never had access to children because I mean we should say Jodie's known for this like so she's had a niece or yes.

1:58:16 It's a niece. It's come out actually uses they them pronounce. So Jessie has come out and spoken about their experience of Jodie when she was 1516. Now they were sent to live with Jodie because they were rebelling as a teenager and all those sorts of Jodie was very teaching, being like the Messiah. The auntie Jodie was then, you know, yeah, she's Jodie's a psychologist. She'll know what to do. So we'll send Jesse there. And Jesse, they said that when they heard all about what was going on for Ruby Frankie's children, that was all the same stuff that they had gone through when they were 16 and all the same stuff.

1:58:55 The cuffing of them and all the cayenne pepper and the honey, all that was used on them at that stage, withholding food. They said that that was really exactly what they had experienced and nothing was done to to save them at that point. There was no one put in place to support them. So thankfully they got to the end of their stint with Jodie and got managed to get out. I think she they were maybe like 18 when they finally were able to get away and moved off and that was that. But no, there was no repercussions for what Jodie had done to them.

1:59:29 So they were very happy to hear that they that she has gone off to jail for this and copped what she needed to cop because she deserves it. Yeah. It's not the first time. Yeah. Oh God, so much. OK. It's a really long episode. It is sorry guys, but we had to get it all out. Yes. All right, so thank you for joining us for another episode next week. Our episode that we're bringing is the Missing Campus Yeah, episodes, so the one in Gatta. Back here in Melbourne or in Victoria, yes. Very interesting case.

2:00:03 I know my dad's been really wanting us to cover this case. It's super interesting. So, Dad, well, this one can be for you. Yeah, Yep. So that's what we're covering next week. Thank you again for joining us. We hope you have a wonderful week and we'll catch you again on the flip side. Absolutely. Come and join us over at Patreon and pick up some extra episodes over there if you like, so stay curious. Crime besties. Bye.