Episode 64 - Ruby Franke & Jodi Hildebrandt

0:15 Welcome back Crime Besties for another episode of Two Crime

0:18 Besties with Emma and Meg. Hello people, how we doing?

0:23 I think we've had a lot of new followers this week Meg really

0:26 following us on Spotify. So we did a shout out last week

0:29 to say please follow if you like, if you are and we actually

0:31 have had a lot new follow a lot of new followers this week I.

0:34 Haven't actually seen that. So that's really.

0:36 Cool to everybody who's followed us.

0:38 Yeah, welcome. And hopefully that means you're

0:41 coming back to us again the following week pretty easily.

0:43 Yeah. Yeah.

0:44 I love that 'cause I mean, I have so many that I follow like

0:46 podcasts and I love that, that when like I finished one, like

0:49 whatever I'm listening to, like whether it be something for, you

0:51 know, doing this podcast or whether it be something for

0:53 enjoyment, general enjoyment. I mean, because it's always

0:56 enjoying. Yeah.

0:58 But yeah. And then like my, you know,

1:00 run-of-the-mill ones, I always listen to just come on next and

1:02 it's like it's so good. I.

1:03 Love it. It was the best.

1:04 Oh yeah. Yeah, you get to.

1:05 Listen. Oh, there's a new episode of Our

1:07 Favorite Thing out. Yeah.

1:08 Yeah. You love it.

1:09 How has your week been? What have you been up to?

1:12 I think the best part of this week is the end of it and like,

1:15 you know, yeah, cuz it's end of term and cuz I finished

1:18 yesterday for the term and it was like, oh God.

1:22 Just skip out of there. Could not get out of there fast

1:24 enough. Yeah, I literally said to the

1:26 team as I'm leaving, going, you know, obviously Friday, if they

1:29 need me, they can always contact me.

1:30 And I'm always like, I was leaving, going.

1:32 If you need anything, let me know.

1:33 Call me as I always do and let them know that.

1:35 And I said, but maybe don't. Also, maybe it can wait if it

1:39 can wait until next term, please allow it to wait until next term

1:43 I'm. Sure, this place is burning

1:44 down. You don't need me.

1:47 Yes. Oh gosh, always here, but you

1:49 know, yeah, please don't. I've also had enough for the

1:53 term. Now I need a break.

1:54 Really need the break, yeah? We the kids had colour run

1:58 yesterday and they had a really, really fun time.

2:00 It was so cute watching them. I love it.

2:02 And then this morning they had their football footy parade,

2:05 which it's it is actually one of my favourite.

2:07 Things actually, those two days to have them in a row.

2:09 Holy crap, huge kids. Wow, how lucky are you?

2:12 Because I loved it yesterday. I actually got to school in time

2:15 just sort of to get the tail end of the run and then their

2:18 celebration at the end of it, which is always lots of fun.

2:21 And I walked into the school gate and within seconds of

2:24 walking in, there was this bunch of like kids, friends, Brody's

2:29 mom, Brody's mom, like hi guys. And they were like, hug.

2:33 I'm like. Oh no, I was actually wearing a

2:36 suit yesterday. You.

2:38 Idiot. I didn't think it through, did I

2:41 not? Normally.

2:42 Well, onto that. I know.

2:43 Usually covered in colour. Yeah, well, I, I couldn't help.

2:46 Yeah, change and it just didn't work out.

2:49 That's always. A issue, it is a thing.

2:51 So I couldn't help out anymore but yeah, and I'd obviously come

2:55 straight from work and I'm like oh God.

2:58 So yeah, my suit was covered. Even just the dust, the coloured

3:01 dust in the air, it's so fine. I was.

3:03 Sucking it back. Yeah.

3:05 Did you have pink snot this morning?

3:07 Probably. Oh, God, yeah.

3:09 Well, Mason's like pink hair this morning.

3:10 Like he's such a great little sweater.

3:12 And so I reckon he's got, he's got pink all in his forehead.

3:15 He's like got his pink forehead thing.

3:17 I'm like Gorbachevish. Yeah, he didn't get it.

3:21 But anyway, pink all in his forehead.

3:25 That will not come off. Literally, he scrubbed it and

3:27 scrubbed it in the shower. He's like, as I said to him,

3:29 this is my boys. We always have a thing.

3:31 Sorry but good men look after their skin.

3:33 Yeah OK. And so there's cleanser and he

3:36 said mum, I used the cleanser 3 times.

3:39 Like my exfoliant for that? My job, yeah, But then I So then

3:42 when he got out of the shower, it was still there.

3:43 I got a baby wipe. I'm like, that gets rid of

3:45 everything. Yeah, baby wipe.

3:47 No, even to the point of there was no pink even on the baby

3:51 wipe, you know, like I would have thought he was getting off.

3:53 Nothing was. I said to him, look, the only

3:54 good thing about that tells me that it's not gonna come off

3:57 onto your pillow tonight, you know, but.

3:59 Like did you see that boy sitting in front of us and his

4:01 head was stained? And I'm like, Oh yeah, it must

4:04 have been the the colour. It was a few kids I noticed had

4:07 yeah, oh, even the blondie's had some pink stained hair.

4:09 Yeah, he's, he's got dark hair like me.

4:11 Yeah, he's yeah. He had some pink in the front of

4:14 his. Oh, that's in it.

4:15 I'm like, yeah, it was quite dyed, like, OK, that's fun.

4:18 That's. Fun.

4:20 Whatever. Oh, it's fine.

4:20 It's not gonna hurt him. He thought it was great.

4:23 It was. So much fun, but it's.

4:25 Always like when they get home from it, you know, strip off at

4:27 the door, don't not go into my house.

4:29 Go into the house with that fine powder.

4:31 Straight to the bathroom, Get in the shower, Yes.

4:34 I had one who was way messier than the other, so at least we

4:37 had a good order for the good reason to order the showers the

4:40 way we did. Let me pick which one, yeah.

4:44 Might have been the one wearing the wig today.

4:47 Oh God, he look great. That's.

4:49 Funny, it's really, really good. Actually, He so last weekend

4:53 Peter took he's doing a Oh my God, this is like such a

4:57 middle-aged man. Sort of, you know, they go

4:59 through their hobbies. They they're either into lawns.

5:01 Mm Hmm. Full driving.

5:04 Yeah, Sport like fishing, Yeah. Or fishing or golf is another

5:09 golf. middle-aged cycling. Yes.

5:12 So Peters love cycling, but at the minute his latest obsession

5:16 is full driving. Yeah.

5:17 And so we're doing a couple of big full driving trips over the

5:21 next 12 months. Yeah.

5:22 And so I said to one part of it is one of the ones we're doing

5:26 is the Simpson Desert, right? So crossing the sand dunes in

5:30 the middle of nothing, Australia, like literally you

5:33 don't see another thing for four days.

5:37 God help me. You'll love it.

5:40 Oh yeah. Yeah.

5:42 Yeah, you still do online shopping?

5:44 Well, I we are. Not actually.

5:46 No. Well, we are getting a star

5:48 like, yeah, because I'm like, I'm not going that far without

5:52 being able to contact emergency services should it be required.

5:55 It's like more likely the online shopping then anyway.

5:57 Well, yeah, well, I've got to come home to some kind of

5:59 packages I need. Some joy in my life.

6:01 Yeah, that's. Right.

6:03 So we are getting a star link for that person safety, safety,

6:06 yeah. But one of the things is I'm

6:09 like, we've never driven on sand dunes before.

6:12 So Peter has decided to do this full driving course.

6:15 And if you have to do the basic one before, you can do the sand

6:17 dune course. So on the weekend, he took

6:19 Oliver and they did the first day of this course.

6:22 Yeah. Anyway, on the way home, they

6:24 decided to stop off at this full driving show at an auto barn.

6:28 I think a lot of auto barns had it on the weekend.

6:30 Whatever a 4x4 driving show and Oliver one a $500 speaker so

6:38 it's this Bluetooth like you can throw the speaker in the pool

6:42 completely waterproof it's got an LED light show like disco

6:46 that comes out of it now out of my children is he the one who

6:50 needed the loud no no does he love it the most oh absolutely

6:55 it has pride of place in his bedroom and even on the lowest

6:59 setting it is it makes the windows vibrate he's.

7:03 Probably going it's it's not on mum, what are you talking?

7:06 Turn it on. So he was absolutely stoked with

7:10 that. I mean, it's a cool price.

7:11 That it's awesome. Just the fact that he won it.

7:13 I mean, winning anything, little something that's actually usable

7:16 and cool like. Worth like 500 bucks.

7:18 Yeah. So he was.

7:19 He was delighted to say the least.

7:22 Yeah. So he had a a great day on

7:24 Sunday then, you know, pumping up the tunes and and getting all

7:27 that sorted so. Lucky you.

7:30 Ohh, lucky me. Yeah.

7:31 And he's, he opened it up, you know, as soon as he got home on

7:34 Saturday night, I'm like, oh, God, yeah, this is our future.

7:38 Yeah, it'll be usable on the trip so too so.

7:40 Well, that's what he seems to do.

7:42 So in the middle of the Simpson Desert will probably.

7:44 No one else will hear it. Just.

7:45 You no one else will hear it because the poor animals that

7:47 are trying to get some sleep slash me trying to get some.

7:50 Anyway, yeah, more you. Yeah, Yep, Yep.

7:55 So that was the highlight of of his week, that's for sure.

7:58 Yes. Oh God, that's so gorgeous.

8:00 Thank you. I do have some shout outs for

8:04 today, so now first I'll do the buy me a coffee shout out.

8:08 So we had Amy's and Kelly Mitchell, both bias coffees this

8:12 week. So thank you so much ladies.

8:13 It's so, so, so appreciated. Absolutely.

8:16 Then I've got a double shout out here for a patron only known by

8:20 the name of Tanya. Yep, she has not only has she

8:24 bought us a significant number of coffees that buy me a coffee,

8:27 she has also joined our Patreon. So Tanya, thank you so much.

8:32 She her comment was look, I'm just gonna blow our room.

8:34 Go on two times. Hold on for a merry mounted from

8:37 the rooftop. She's like best podcast on

8:41 Spotify. Can we get the money that

8:44 they're getting to please Tanya? I'm like Oh my God that is so

8:50 nice, thank you. Compliment and I love.

8:52 That, I mean, we'll take it. Yeah.

8:54 We really appreciate the fact that somebody thinks that.

8:57 Yep, absolute legend. Yeah, we do struggle to think

9:00 that we're that good, but we do appreciate all the compliments

9:03 we're getting so many lately. I've really like, you know,

9:06 within, you know, messages either being like, you know,

9:08 I've got this suggestion or, you know, we love, you know, this

9:10 part about the podcast, whatever.

9:12 But lots of like, you know, just really enjoying the podcast and

9:14 for so many different aspects, which, you know, could be some

9:17 of it's just the banter and other people like get rid of the

9:19 banter. We just want the cage.

9:20 Yeah. So from both ends, we're getting

9:22 that. And so we love it.

9:23 It's just great that people are really connecting with

9:25 everything that we're doing so. And I think you know a lot of

9:28 the the people who like the banter generally the people

9:31 who've got like kids similar ages and all of that sort of

9:33 stuff and can totally relate to what we're talking about.

9:36 So we. Just don't shut up.

9:37 So we apologize, yeah. And I know a lot of our weeks

9:41 are monotonous, but that is motherhood, that is life with

9:45 young children. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's so

9:48 true. Yeah.

9:48 But yeah, should we just say too like obviously with the Patreon,

9:52 like it's growing, which is fabulous.

9:53 And we're gonna like start ramping up with that a little

9:55 bit more. And we've got episodes coming

9:58 out or we've dropped obviously our first one in there and we've

10:01 got some more coming up. So we're planning in our weeks

10:04 ahead that we are actually gonna be missing an episode on our

10:07 regular feed. But if you don't want to miss an

10:10 episode, come and join us at Patreon because we will be

10:12 dropping extra ones in there in replacement of the free feed.

10:17 So just the one week you'll miss on the free but, but obviously

10:20 we can come over to Patreon and you'll get your fix over there

10:23 if you want to come and join us there.

10:24 So come and join it for 5 bucks a month on the bestie tier.

10:28 So yeah, come and join us and join the chat.

10:31 There's the chat's going a bit nuts in there.

10:33 Actually. We need to get back in there

10:34 properly. I know, I know.

10:35 I just, I actually haven't had time, yeah, to properly get in

10:38 there. But yeah.

10:40 You can join us over at patreon.com/two Crime Besties.

10:44 Fantastic. We really appreciate people's

10:46 people joining us over there. Yeah.

10:48 So in a couple of weeks we will be just taking a one week break.

10:52 We just need to the scheduling of everything, you know, the

10:55 madness of life. Yeah, we, we there was no other

10:58 way around it. So we do apologize for that.

11:01 But you know, these things happen.

11:02 And we did take a break last year in the middle of the year

11:05 as well. Yeah, exactly.

11:06 Yeah. We kind of, you know, it's, it's

11:08 hard to produce a podcast every single week when we've got so

11:11 many other things going. On when this is like, you know,

11:12 this is our, well, it's our hobby, you know, kind of thing

11:15 trying to fit it into a week with lots of things that go on

11:17 with family and everything else. So that's it.

11:20 That's right. It is what it is.

11:21 It is what it is, Yeah. I mean, one week's off is not

11:23 too bad. I think that we've done well.

11:24 We've done well to make it back because it could have been more.

11:26 All right. And then my last shout out for

11:29 today because, you know, he'd be a very upset if I didn't shout

11:33 out to produce a Pete for setting up the podcast studio

11:35 this morning. Yeah, I said to Meg, because

11:38 we've we're slightly tight on time today only because our kids

11:42 finished school early because it's the last day of term.

11:45 And I'd said to Meg, I'll try really hard to get the studio

11:49 set up so we can just come back from school, drop off and

11:51 record. Yeah, but I didn't quite get

11:54 there. It was just, you know, mornings.

11:56 Tell me about it. Yeah, so as I was walking out

11:59 the door, I'm like, what time's your first meeting, Peter?

12:01 And he's like, oh, I've got like 15 minutes.

12:03 I'm like, right, get in there, do your best and get as much of

12:06 it done as you can. So thank you, Peter.

12:07 He did well. Everything was where we normally

12:09 have it. Yeah, he did.

12:11 Really. Well, I haven't.

12:12 The boom's in a good spot. Yep.

12:13 Thanks, Pete. Go, Pete.

12:14 Appreciate it. OK.

12:16 What are we talking about today? Who are we discussing today?

12:19 Today I'm actually really happy to do this one.

12:21 I've like been wanting to chat with this one about.

12:23 Meeting. With you for quite some time, I

12:25 feel like. We actually have not even

12:26 discussed. We really haven't had personal

12:28 lives even. I mean, back when this all came

12:31 to light, we had a brief conversation about it.

12:34 Really nothing in depth, sorry. So we're we're coming in cold,

12:37 but at the same time like because I'm I'm actually really

12:39 keen to get it on the pod of like.

12:41 What is your thoughts on all of this?

12:42 And there's so much of it. There's so.

12:44 Much so much. So we're today then we're going

12:46 to be talking about Ruby Frankie.

12:48 So she is fascinating. But the whole the whole thing,

12:53 the whole thing is fascinating and everyone around it.

12:55 I'm really keen to get into this.

12:56 Oh, me too, yeah. So Ruby Griffiths, which was her

13:01 maiden name, was born on the 18th of January in 1982.

13:05 Her parents were Chad and Jennifer Griffiths and they had

13:10 five children. So Ruby was their eldest.

13:15 They then had three girls and then their youngest is a boy.

13:20 They've got something like 22 grandkids or something like

13:23 that. Gosh.

13:24 So the interesting part about this.

13:27 So for those of you who don't know Ruby, Frankie and how she

13:30 became famous, I guess, or notorious, well, she's notorious

13:34 now. The famous at the time is she

13:36 started a YouTube channel called 8 Passengers and it went

13:40 gangbusters. Her parents were also vloggers

13:46 and well. Her sister, first two of her

13:48 sister, one of her sisters particularly that she, she sort

13:51 of went, oh, you're making money off this.

13:52 So I'll see how I can go with that.

13:54 Yeah. So it was like a very common

13:56 thing within their family. I think it's really worth like

14:01 noting now that they're Mormon and this sort of family vlogging

14:08 type situation is rife within the Mormon community.

14:13 Mom talk, mom talk. Oh I love it.

14:17 Oh, the Real Housewives are the real lives of Mormon wives.

14:20 Oh my God. I.

14:21 Just the Mormon wives one it just God that's bat shit crazy

14:24 that one it's. Bat shit crazy I'm here season

14:27 3. Oh, same, same.

14:29 But you know what I really, what I really think that that show,

14:34 that show shows is that what Mormons present is not

14:39 necessarily what they live all of the time.

14:41 Now, I'm not saying that every Mormon is like that by any

14:44 stretch of the imagination, but they do give off a certain

14:48 image, especially these ones who put their lives on YouTube or,

14:52 you know, on TV shows. And they, you know, the idea or

14:59 what they're presenting is that they're upholding these

15:01 traditional Mormon values, like not drinking, no sex before

15:04 marriage. If you're a strict mom, you

15:07 don't even drink coffee. No stimulants at all.

15:09 Yeah. And then they're going off.

15:11 And I mean, we all know what happened.

15:13 We all know. Well, do we all do?

15:15 If you don't, let's talk. Yeah, no, I mean the whole mum

15:19 talk thing of like, you know, like soft swinging.

15:21 So hell that is. Oh, come on, You're either

15:24 swinging or you're not. But you know that this is the

15:27 thing. Like, what is actually going on

15:29 behind closed? Yes, I think nobody knows.

15:31 And similarly, and I think this is true of a lot of family

15:34 vloggers, whether they're Mormon or not, is what is being

15:38 presented and then what is actually happening behind the

15:41 scenes. Yeah.

15:42 And did you watch the documentary about Rudy?

15:45 There's been a couple have watched.

15:46 It have you watched the full of Ruby Frankie I?

15:49 Think that yes. Yes.

15:50 So they had a lot of outtake footage that was given to them

15:54 for that documentary. Yes.

15:56 And I found it really fascinating because you could

16:00 see the bits where she was leading up to recording and then

16:03 while she was recording she was all like animated and blah blah

16:05 blah. The.

16:06 Opening scene of that, yeah, it's really disturbing, really

16:09 disturbing. It actually is to watch of her

16:11 like she's actually what, she's holding up some cards trying to

16:13 work out how she's gonna like, film this to them.

16:16 Pens or. Something.

16:17 Yeah, yeah, she's holding something up.

16:19 And then and she's like, you know, you can see the

16:21 concentration and the, you know, planning ahead in the brain of,

16:23 like, how this is gonna work. But she's really serious and

16:26 real. And then all of a sudden this

16:29 foom. Yeah.

16:30 And she's on like, hi. And like, oh, it's real switch.

16:35 And it's actually, it is disturbing.

16:37 And then at one point, like she must hear her kids.

16:39 You can't hear it in the video. And then she's like I have told

16:42 you like, like at the kids. And then she's back and it's

16:46 like boom again. And she's like, and she

16:48 practices it like 10 times into the camera, smiling into it and

16:52 animating her face so that she can get the right thumbnail for

16:55 everybody she's trying to do. You'll do it like that.

16:58 Yeah, OK. Right.

16:58 OK Yeah. It's very like, well, I mean,

17:01 she's performing. And so then it becomes to me,

17:04 then it's not vlogging because you're not just recording life

17:07 as it is, you're actually performing.

17:09 It's a completely different. Thing to me and this is I was

17:12 actually going to make the exact same point yeah.

17:14 I'm like this is not a vlog. This is not in a day this is not

17:18 a day in the life of because as we get along you'll also will.

17:22 I'm sure we'll talk about this but the way she makes her

17:24 children perform if they don't react in the right way to

17:27 something she makes them do it again.

17:29 It's not. There's nothing authentic about

17:31 what she's producing and putting out there.

17:33 Yeah, you know, it's, it's, it is.

17:35 It's disturbing. Yeah, very interesting.

17:38 Like how I don't mean I've heard Chad, her eldest, well, second

17:42 eldest, sorry, talk about this, you know, as an adult himself

17:45 now of the fact of when they were recording that it was they

17:49 would record most of the day, you know, and it would be that,

17:53 you know, part of the day would be normal without the camera.

17:57 But he said if you missed something, if you said something

17:59 that was funny and like content, you then had to go.

18:02 She would then, you know, crack it, get the camera out and go.

18:05 You have to do that again when it was just a family moment,

18:09 which is what I guess, Yeah, is would be generally what a vlog

18:12 would be like. You pick up, pick those moments

18:14 that do happen and that are genuinely family, you know,

18:18 incidents and things that go on. But yeah, she would make him

18:21 repeat it and do it again. Like it's like that's not

18:23 authentic. If you think about your life,

18:26 yeah, there's not that many interesting things that happen.

18:28 You have to create like in order to.

18:30 So they were putting out a video every day, five days a week

18:34 under in their Eight Passengers YouTube channel, 6:00 AM.

18:38 They would release the videos every weekday morning and day,

18:42 every day, every day. And so in order to and that

18:45 their episodes, some of them were up to an hour long.

18:48 I mean, not only the getting the contents one thing I mean, but

18:51 we know just editing it. Yeah, putting that together as

18:54 like because I mean, you know, from a day of filming like that,

18:57 she must have been like then editing into the all hours of

18:59 the night. I would have that ready to go.

19:01 I wouldn't imagine morning that's.

19:03 Probably insane so because you're going through a.

19:04 Lot of hours of footage there. Yeah, wow.

19:07 Yeah, I think she edit. I did see an interview with her.

19:10 This was before anything happened.

19:12 Yeah. And somebody asked her about her

19:14 process and she said she kind of edited as she went.

19:17 So like she'd have a computer or whatever and she'd upload the

19:22 bits and into her software as she was like, Oh yeah, I'm gonna

19:25 use that. I'll pop that in there now.

19:27 So I'm guessing it was like a progressive thing across the

19:29 day. But you're right, a lot of work

19:32 would go into that. But who whose family generates

19:35 an hour or 30 minutes even of interesting content in a day

19:39 that she constantly had to push different things in order to get

19:44 content? That for that many that I mean,

19:48 yeah, for releasing something daily, holy crap.

19:50 Like that's you're putting a lot of pressure on yourself and your

19:53 family to do that. Yeah, that's insane.

19:56 I think it's like, so let's let's have a bit of a chat.

19:59 So she was Frankie Ruby was married to a man by the name of

20:04 Kevin Frankie. Yeah.

20:05 Now they met at college. I believe he was.

20:09 He's a little bit older than she is, but he.

20:13 They met at college at BYU, BYU, yeah, and they ended up really

20:18 falling for each other. But even the story about that

20:21 really gets me. This is where like again, the

20:23 Mormon situation gets me on that of like they really fell in

20:25 love. Did they though?

20:26 Because like, I mean, I'm not saying that they didn't either.

20:28 I'm just asking the question because it is very typical in

20:31 the Mormon faith that things move very quickly.

20:34 Yes. So I mean, it's not unusual when

20:37 there's actually a Tiktok thing where they go around and say

20:41 like and ask Mormons like, you know, how long did you date for

20:43 before you were married and or, you know, engaged at least, you

20:45 know, and typically those people like, it's like a question thing

20:48 that gets asked to like pick around BYU, right.

20:51 And yeah, it's not unusual for two weeks, two months, two

20:55 weeks. Yeah.

20:56 It's like there's definitely like very short times of space

21:00 of like not meeting somebody, dating and getting to that

21:04 eventual point of like of engagement to me, like in our in

21:08 non Mormon culture, two years would not be and in any way

21:13 abnormal, you know, like that you're dating someone before

21:15 you're engaged. Oh yeah, one year is probably

21:18 still fast. Fast.

21:19 Yeah. You know, like 2 years is

21:20 probably very normal. You know, five years for myself,

21:23 like kind of stuff before you went to like to the next one.

21:26 It's but they are. Yeah, it's it's a fast moving

21:28 thing. So then I really wonder how well

21:30 you actually know that person and.

21:32 The The funny thing about Kevin is he said he he as soon as he

21:36 saw Ruby, he fell in love with her.

21:38 Yeah, and he pursued her so in her closet at her house.

21:41 So how the hell were he was in her closet when their?

21:44 Mormons were even. Married.

21:45 But anyway, that's a that's a story.

21:47 Maybe that Kevin can one day in lightness.

21:51 But he was in her closet and he found this chart that she'd made

21:54 and it was all of the attributes that she wanted in her future

21:58 husband and how important they were.

22:00 Right. And it was things like.

22:01 So it's from the incredibly superficial, like he needs to be

22:04 at least two inches tall, no, 3 inches taller than me, something

22:08 like that. Yeah, right.

22:09 He needs to be handsome. He needs to have a well

22:12 respected job. He needs to have like be a man

22:16 of faith, blah, blah, blah. She I'm talking this chart was

22:19 probably 2A3 pages put together. I mean, part of me is like, go

22:24 you, you know what you want. But at the same time I'm like,

22:28 like, you don't know I mean you. What?

22:31 The perfect person might be two inches shorter than you, and

22:33 does that really matter exactly? But so Kevin found this and he's

22:36 like, I did everything I could to check every single box.

22:40 I didn't. Read it and go.

22:41 I meet them all already, no? Well, it made it made him

22:45 demonstrate. Maybe, maybe he had all of those

22:47 attributes, I don't know, but it made him demonstrate them to

22:50 her. But then that they say to me,

22:52 then that's manipulation absolutely like because then

22:54 you're but. Then but then we also know, like

22:57 I just think in this, he was so one eyed in getting wanting her

23:03 and getting her yeah, that he did whatever it took.

23:07 And he can justify that because he he just knew she was the

23:10 person for him. Yeah, and then, well, we'll talk

23:15 about things as they come along. But yeah.

23:18 And so he got a hook like an insinker.

23:20 I think they dated for two months before they got in.

23:22 And this is quite standard. It's two months.

23:25 I mean, who knows the person? But and they can't do anything

23:27 in that room. They don't know them like

23:29 they're fully chaperoned. So they can't even go on a date

23:32 on their own. And then once they're engaged,

23:35 they can't. It's not, they're not kissing or

23:37 anything like that. Their first kiss is at No.

23:39 Their first kiss is when they're bound together for time and all

23:42 eternity in the temple. Right.

23:48 Sorry to. Look on your face.

23:52 Oh man. OK, but that's what it is.

23:54 That's what they're committing to.

23:55 And because Mormons believe that you are literally, once you are

23:58 married in the temple, that you are literally together for

24:01 eternity, time and all eternity. I.

24:04 Think I can I oh God, first guy that you've ever like dated.

24:09 Not like not even that, because you didn't even do that and

24:11 you're engaged. Oh yeah, fair.

24:12 So like I go back to that sort of thought in my mind and go.

24:16 What if he's a terrible kisser? What if he's just a Dick?

24:19 Yeah. Because you don't know.

24:21 Especially he's got your list and he's trying to meet all that

24:23 criteria. Yeah, I don't know.

24:27 Yeah. Yeah, I know, I know, I know.

24:29 Look, it's not something that we, it's not something that is

24:32 in our experience. No really out of my.

24:35 Yeah, So they lived in Utah. Mormon Central.

24:41 Yeah. In a really beautiful town.

24:44 Like, absolutely picturesque. I.

24:46 Really want to go to Utah. Me too.

24:48 Like, for many reasons. Me too.

24:50 But I just think I find every time I see photos and images of

24:53 like, their, you know, towns and their, you know, their housing

24:57 and all that sort of stuff, I just go, oh, my God, Yeah, It

24:59 looks so lovely. Very.

25:01 The suburbia of Utah seems really lovely.

25:04 Yeah. If only they went shootings and

25:07 things. And yeah, that's the thing else

25:10 that goes with all. That they went on to have six

25:13 children. Yeah.

25:14 And we're going to name the eldest 2 because they are both,

25:18 well, several of their children are of age.

25:21 But at the time that all of the issues and everything that

25:25 happened in this case came out, there were only two children who

25:29 were of age at the time and spoke publicly.

25:31 Yeah. So that is Cherie, their eldest

25:34 daughter, and Chad, their oldest son.

25:37 They then had four other children.

25:39 They had a daughter, a daughter, a son and another daughter.

25:44 Yeah. Now, we'll probably just refer

25:46 to those children by their first initials because it is we, we

25:52 look, their names are out there. If you want to find them, you

25:54 absolutely can. But they are the children that

25:56 we're going to be talking about today in particular.

25:58 They're still minors. Yeah.

26:00 And they have experienced extreme trauma.

26:03 We don't want to perpetuate any of that, but we do want to tell

26:06 this story because it's just, I think and.

26:09 There's important reasons why. We need to talk and we have 100%

26:13 be getting to that as we go through.

26:14 Yeah. But I think these kids need to

26:16 have at least some anonymity, if they can have some, to be able

26:20 to move on with their lives as they wish.

26:22 And whether that be that in their own time they want to come

26:25 forward and talk more. Yeah.

26:26 But I think that's really that's their decision.

26:29 And I don't think we should be naming them for that reason.

26:31 No, that's exactly right. So the YouTube channel 8

26:36 Passengers, they launched that when Ruby was pregnant with

26:39 their youngest daughter. And the first video that they

26:42 released was them finding out the gender of that of that final

26:48 child of theirs. Yes.

26:49 And it garnered, you know, quite a few views and it really

26:53 started things going. Apparently in their first month

26:57 on YouTube, they earned 87 dollars.

26:59 Yeah. Yeah.

27:00 So I'm like the fact that they were monetizing that early means

27:04 that they must have been doing pretty well pretty early on.

27:07 Absolutely. They, they think they got to

27:08 about 5000 followers real quick. Like that was sort of it blew

27:12 to, blew up a little bit, like, you know, to that point, yeah.

27:16 But then it probably took about two years for them to get to

27:18 that full blown next level where they reached like 2 and a half

27:21 million. But that's still a short space

27:23 of time. Really, I think at the peak they

27:26 had just under 2.3 million subscribers.

27:29 Yeah. And they were earning upwards of

27:32 120 thousand U.S. dollars a month.

27:34 Yeah, in that is just in YouTube revenue.

27:38 That's it. Not that's not including any of

27:40 the endorsement sponsors. Yeah.

27:42 And they did a lot, a lot of that sort of stuff yes.

27:46 So they, they did, they did ads for things like baby wipes and

27:50 they went to Disneyland and, and filmed a thing at Disneyland

27:54 about using baby wipes to wipe surfaces and stuff like the,

27:57 the, the amount of money that was being thrown at these people

28:02 was. Insane.

28:04 They were making a lot of money. Yeah, A.

28:07 Lot of money. Yeah, and like so, Ruby wasn't

28:10 working and she didn't need to this.

28:12 Was working. On the that's what was working

28:14 town job, Yeah, she was working outside of the home.

28:16 This was what this job is what for, like gave her the

28:20 opportunity about to stay at home with their kids.

28:22 Yeah. But yeah, I mean that, as I was

28:24 saying before, this would have been a full time job to her.

28:27 Absolutely. Because so much needed to be

28:30 done in terms of the equipment and setting it up and having it

28:33 all recording and having it and repeating it over and over again

28:37 to get it how you want. It getting it right, right?

28:39 But then the editing of that and uploading it and things, there

28:41 is a lot that goes with all of that.

28:43 Yeah. And actually, and when you see

28:46 the videos too, you can tell from those initial videos, yeah,

28:50 to you know what like came a bit later.

28:52 She did take some time to find her feet in the editing process.

28:56 And there's a lot of difference between the initial ones in

28:59 terms of amateurish to like later ones where it is very much

29:04 produced. And I and I dare say look, as

29:06 they were earning more money, there was a bit more of a team

29:09 behind some of that. But she did a lot of it herself

29:11 though, didn't she? Like so.

29:12 At the start, she did it all by herself.

29:14 They then employed, as time went on, they employed A videographer

29:19 and an editor. So I think by the time they were

29:23 sort of at that peak, yeah. I don't know that Ruby had much

29:26 of a hand in doing the grunt work of it, but I think she

29:29 still chose what went into the videos and obviously had the

29:32 final say in all of it. Yeah, Kevin was still about

29:37 working. He was a professor of civil

29:40 engineering at BYU. His his study of focus

29:43 earthquakes. OK, I don't know.

29:48 Is is Utah an earthquake? I I have no idea.

29:51 No, I don't. Know, I know like LA is, yeah,

29:55 but I'm not sure. I'm not sure about Utah in

29:58 particular with regard to earthquakes, but that was his

30:00 sort of, yeah. And he stayed working as a

30:04 professor for the whole time. Like he he never gave up his

30:07 work. Just on the point of like what

30:09 they recorded on the Daily Two, there was nothing that was off

30:12 limits. Literally they filmed Kevin's

30:16 grandmother's funeral like. Logged it she she vlogged a car

30:22 accident she was. In yeah there was so much that

30:25 they put on this that everyone anyone else I think would be

30:28 like well clearly that's personal like you know that's

30:31 that's too far too far no she. She filmed so the the 1 the

30:35 video that they filmed when they were in the car accident was

30:37 like the video title was first day back at school car crash.

30:41 Oh my God. And literally it was it was the

30:44 first day back at school for the kids because she homeschooled

30:46 some of them. It was a bit weird the way they

30:47 did it, but the kids who were going to school, they were on

30:51 their way and it wasn't Ruby's fault at all, but somebody came

30:55 and sort of side swapped her and her car went into another car.

30:58 What the school? Car, school, roads around the

31:00 are crazy and people do stupid things.

31:01 Do they? We don't know anything about

31:03 that, no. Not at all.

31:05 Actually, one of the school mums from our school commented on our

31:08 team to say so if you're listening, thanks.

31:10 And and we know, yes, you do know exactly who we're talking

31:13 about. I know where that went.

31:16 Oh my God. Oops.

31:18 And yeah, totally. Oh, we all know if you're going

31:20 to drive like a Dick head, you've got to be going to be

31:22 called out for it. But anyway, sorry.

31:24 And in the in the vlog, she basically gets hit.

31:28 She gets her camera out now she does not know the state of

31:32 anybody else who's been hit in this accident.

31:34 This kind of thing I mean. She gets her vlogging camera

31:36 out. She goes over with her kids to

31:39 stay in the car. They're all fine.

31:41 She goes over with her vlogging camera and goes over to the

31:46 other car to check that that person was OK.

31:49 That person was OK, she then. But most importantly, it's the

31:51 camera. Not yes, not at all, not the

31:55 she's only it's literally is video first priority me, me

31:58 being recorded asking someone, are you OK?

32:00 Is what's important there not the answer to that question?

32:03 Exactly. I'm like that's it's just

32:05 fucked. Up anyway, so she then goes and

32:07 checks the other car and that person's OK as well.

32:10 She then goes back to her car and her youngest boy R is in the

32:15 back crying and and she's like, you know, we just need to be

32:19 thankful to God that we're all OK and that everybody's OK.

32:24 And she then still just takes them to school.

32:28 She's just. It's just, I don't know if she.

32:30 Yeah, Yep. Anyway, so that's, that's, you

32:35 know, and oh, then what about the video that she did where she

32:37 takes Cherie Bra shopping and puts that on you?

32:42 Yeah. Mormons are modest, right?

32:44 They're supposed to be. Modestly, yeah.

32:48 Dressed, modestly discussed. That was just.

32:50 Put all over the Internet. And she's taking her teenage

32:53 daughter, very young teenage daughter.

32:56 Mind you, I think she was 13, bra shopping and she.

32:59 Vlogs it. Oh, just that's crazy, strange

33:02 and awful for a daughter. Cheree said at the time it

33:05 didn't bother her, but then when she did the same thing to one of

33:09 her younger sisters, yeah, she's like, oh, I felt really

33:12 uncomfortable for my sister in that situation, like a bit from

33:15 a different. Perspective, yeah, see, I wonder

33:18 if there's a little bit of like, oh, I'm the centre of the

33:20 tension so I'm OK with it. But like when it when you see it

33:23 from the other perspective of it happening with someone else, it

33:25 just looks a bit looks a bit yuck.

33:26 And you kind of go, Oh yeah, maybe that was bit weird.

33:30 Yeah, like. The children were all employees

33:33 of Rubies, so technically they were paid.

33:37 Yeah, although what she paid them and then we'll, we'll

33:41 discuss the rest of that in a minute.

33:43 Yeah. But what she paid them, it

33:44 wasn't like they got a standard flat fee per day or something

33:48 like that. She would give them.

33:50 She'd be like, I'll give you $10 if you do this video.

33:53 If you do right. I'll give you $100 if you do

33:56 this video with me. Oh so.

33:58 It was bribery. It was.

33:59 It was. Essentially bribery.

34:00 Yeah, That's not being paid in as employee.

34:02 It's like, like saying, you know, like if you come to this

34:04 meeting, I'll feed you pizza, we're not going to pay you.

34:06 Like, you know what I mean? Like as in trying to incentify

34:09 like what you actually do for your job like.

34:11 Yeah, I feel like what they should have done, and I would

34:16 never vlog my children, but you know, maybe pay them a flat rate

34:21 of $100 a day each. Yeah, or something.

34:23 Well, yeah, I mean they, yeah, we'll get into all of it.

34:25 Exactly what where we get to from here with that?

34:27 But yeah, it's that's, that's not right.

34:29 Like they're, they're, they're putting in a lot of work, too.

34:34 Absolutely. People wouldn't be watching if

34:36 they didn't have kids. You.

34:37 Know well this is the thing that's.

34:38 And then she she knew that too. That was quite part of it that

34:41 got her into it because actually what happened was her sister was

34:43 vlogging, but she didn't have any children right.

34:45 And they're having trouble falling pregnant.

34:47 Yeah. And so but the one video that

34:49 did blow up was them finally finding out they were pregnant

34:52 and that was when she got the idea of like, Oh well, I'm

34:54 already pregnant. I could do a video of the gender

34:56 reveal and start vlogging and sort of going from there.

35:00 So that was what she knew, that kids got the audience and that's

35:04 what would get people to bite. So yeah, she knew that the kids

35:08 were the pool. Yeah, yeah, for sure.

35:12 And The thing is, like, of course, of course the kids were

35:15 the pool because they were the content for her there.

35:18 It was their lives that she was vlogging.

35:20 Really. Like, what did she?

35:21 Her life was her children. That's all she had, really.

35:24 Like, yeah. And even more so as you, again,

35:27 we went along because she really started isolating herself from

35:30 other people as well. It became so insular.

35:32 Yeah. Yeah, which is part of part of

35:34 the. Problem.

35:35 Absolutely. Yeah.

35:37 Yeah, just absolutely. Crazy.

35:40 So should we get to the start of the end?

35:45 Yeah, I think that's well. Actually, let's just give a bit

35:47 of a background. So of so Chad, the eldest son in

35:52 the vlogs, you sort of see things going along.

35:54 So first of all, they present themselves as this perfect

35:56 Mormon family. Then I guess as time goes along,

35:59 people see bits and pieces and what comes to light is that

36:03 Chad's been expelled from school.

36:05 Now, we don't really know the exact reason why, but I think it

36:09 was a few different, a few incidents, incidents that had

36:13 happened that sort of led to his expulsion.

36:16 He he sort of talks about it of just typical stuff for

36:19 teenagers. He But there wasn't even one

36:21 thing was there. No, it was just little things

36:23 and he even says little things. It was.

36:25 There was nothing really major to it.

36:27 There's an expectation of perfectionism within the Mormon

36:29 culture. Yeah.

36:30 And I think he wasn't necessarily living up to that.

36:34 I feel like he was rebelling the life that he was being forced to

36:37 lead to lead, I believe. And in the videos, he looks

36:40 depressed to me, like he's so downtrodden.

36:44 And anyway, so it comes to the point where he's expelled from

36:47 school. His mum and dad are, like, at

36:48 their wit's end. Even though these kids aren't

36:50 there is, you know, they're really not.

36:52 They're really not bad, but they're at their wit's end.

36:54 And so they decide to send him to a camp.

36:58 And this is one of those wilderness camps that they have

37:02 in the US that like a la Paris Hilton sort of thing.

37:05 Yeah. And he goes out into the desert

37:07 for 10 weeks. 10 weeks. 10I. Think it's a 10 weeks. 10 weeks

37:13 without a shower. No shower for 10 weeks.

37:15 He goes out and they have to pitch their own tents and hunt

37:18 for their own food. And I think I think some food,

37:21 sorry, some food was provided. They had to forage for other

37:24 things and whatever. And I think it was in Arizona or

37:27 something. He went to this camp.

37:28 It wasn't within it wasn't in Utah.

37:29 Oh it. Wasn't even nearby.

37:31 No. Oh.

37:32 God. And so at the end of the 10

37:34 weeks, Ruby and Kevin go to the camp and they stay one night

37:40 with him in this situation that he has just spent 10 weeks in,

37:45 right? Yeah, Ruby says in the vlog the

37:47 next morning. Because of course, she vlogged

37:48 it all. She says in the vlog the next

37:50 morning that she's like, that was the worst night's sleep I've

37:53 ever had. I never want to do that again.

37:55 I'm like, yeah, but yeah, you've just subjected your, I think he

37:58 was 1616 or 17 year old son to 10 weeks of this.

38:04 Oh, God. Anyway, they drive home, he has

38:06 a shower and, you know, things are all hunky Dory again.

38:09 The kid, all of the youngest siblings are so happy to see

38:12 him, you know, and they've really, really missed him.

38:15 As part of as part of this, I think there were some other

38:19 behaviours that had sort of led to the point where Ruby decided,

38:25 sorry, First things first, after he came back from the wilderness

38:31 camp, Ruby decided that he probably needed some counselling

38:36 to kind of keep him on track and to make sure that none of these

38:40 naughty things sort of happen again.

38:42 And she's recommended a psychologist.

38:44 I put that in inverted commas for those of you who are not

38:48 watching us by the name of Jodie Hildebrand and.

38:53 She's like the go to in terms of the Mormon church.

38:55 She was very much a That's the person you see.

38:59 Yeah, she was definitely at the forefront of like, she was very

39:02 visible within the church. And then obviously, yeah, she

39:06 was the guru that everyone would go and see.

39:09 She was making a fortune. She was worth about four mil

39:12 when they first met and she was charging about $200.00 an hour

39:15 for her counseling. Yeah, yeah.

39:18 And she basically would counsel Chad.

39:23 Now, I think most of the people who were seeing her, she made

39:26 them subscribe to this model of care that she developed, not

39:32 based in any evidence whatsoever.

39:35 And this is this has been sort of debunked by a lot of

39:38 psychologists since all of this information has come out.

39:42 But she would put people on these plans whereby they would

39:47 need to see her several times a week and do all of these

39:50 different protocols that she developed.

39:53 Some people were paying $1000 a week to receive her.

40:01 Therapy. Yeah, 1000.

40:03 Dollars a week, yeah. Now Chad says that at the start

40:09 he he was a bit resistant, but as time went on and he had more

40:14 and more sessions with her, he kind of did become comfortable

40:17 with her and started to take on some of her practices and did

40:20 have a. It did have a positive benefit

40:23 at the start in his life and it really did help to sort of

40:26 settle him and whatever. But he was a teenage boy, right?

40:30 So she would tell him things like she, she was like almost

40:34 like a priest in the way that she spoke to her, I'm going to

40:40 say disciples, but to her patients.

40:42 Yeah. She would basically make them

40:45 repent for things that they had done or thought of or whatever.

40:51 And so Chad, as a teenage boy at some point had viewed

40:56 pornography, right? This is just one example.

40:59 She never let him live that down or give that up and she just

41:03 said he was like. That made him evil.

41:06 That made him evil. That's right.

41:07 He had the devil in him and. That's what she would do.

41:09 She would manipulate from that point of like these were people

41:12 who are already very much have faith, right?

41:16 So she would take that faith that they already had and make

41:20 it fully take it to a whole another level of, you know,

41:24 that, yeah, that sin makes it even worse again, you know, and

41:30 really drag them down into these depths of absolute feeling shame

41:35 and that they were evil for these thoughts or things they

41:39 had done that really just better than it was just beating them

41:44 down, I guess, and really making you feel shit about yourself.

41:47 Yeah, so then she's not doing what people have gone there to

41:49 get her to do. Like they're not feeling better

41:51 about themselves. No.

41:52 Well, the only way you could feel better about yourself was

41:54 to then, you know, repent and. Pay her $1000 a week.

41:59 Yeah, and, you know, improve your life and meet her standards

42:03 of what she was setting. You know, that he had to do all

42:05 these things to be able to then not be the evil piece of shit

42:09 she was making out. He was for these fairly minor

42:12 things that he was doing. There was a lot of the things

42:15 were so minor. It was made to be.

42:18 It was made out to be so major. Yeah.

42:20 I think you know, she she was such a in so in the documentary

42:27 Devil in the Family, the full of Ruby Frankie.

42:30 It's available on Disney. Yeah.

42:32 Disney Plus, Yeah. They talk in that documentary,

42:35 they've got a man that she sort of mentored or shadowed for

42:40 about 12 months. And he basically said he had to

42:43 get away because as a as a trained counsellor, because the

42:47 things that she was telling her patients to do were not based in

42:51 evidence were completely outside their code of practice.

42:54 And she was, she shouldn't have been practicing that way.

42:59 And it made him so incredibly uncomfortable.

43:02 She would tell, she would split marriages apart.

43:05 She would she like it got really, really dangerous to be

43:11 one of her patients. Absolutely.

43:13 There's a number of people that have come forward since about

43:16 their counseling with her. And yeah, basically one of the

43:19 things that she attached to very quickly with people was, as you

43:22 mentioned, like the porn before, that if they've watched porn

43:25 once, it's not just watching porn once you're addicted to

43:29 porn and, and convincing the wife or the OR the partner, and

43:33 I say wife because she also did counsel gay marriages and all

43:35 that sort of thing. But you know, the other partner,

43:37 she would convince them that the other partner who's been

43:40 watching the porn, they're addicted to porn.

43:42 You need to get away from them. They need to, they need to like

43:44 sort their shit out and separate them.

43:47 So rather than counseling them together then even if kind of

43:50 going, OK, we've done this, let's move.

43:51 Like, how are we going to move through this together?

43:53 It would be an immediate, you need to separate and, you know,

43:56 because he needs to sort that out and watching that porn

43:59 because that's evil. And he's fully addicted.

44:02 And you as the partner you need to, you know, separate yourself

44:04 from because you can't, you want to like, catch it.

44:06 Like she, I mean, a lot of her practices were entrenched in

44:09 homophobia, transphobia. Oh, absolutely.

44:12 All these sorts of things were going on in terms of her

44:14 counselling as well. So, Oh yeah, she was bad.

44:17 Bad, bad news. Yeah.

44:19 She was an astute businesswoman, though, because she pretty

44:23 quickly as her popularity began and to rise, she pretty quickly

44:27 realized that even though she's charging 200 bucks a pop,

44:31 there's only so much of her that can go around.

44:33 And there's only there's a finite, essentially a finite

44:35 number of hours in a week that she can practice.

44:38 Yeah. So what she started to do was

44:39 make up these courses. Yeah.

44:41 And she would either have people come to seminars that she would

44:45 host and present. It was under the brand

44:47 connections with an Elks, but she it was an it was an amazing

44:57 business model because she was able to in an hour reach, I

45:01 don't know, 30 people or 40 people or a room full of people,

45:05 Yeah, who were paying her still the 200 bucks for the hour or

45:08 the whatever much for the hour. And she also would then host

45:11 these online groups as well. So she was able to then have a

45:14 far further reaching, geographically further reaching,

45:19 you know, a group of people come to her seminars that were held

45:23 online. She hosted these men's groups,

45:25 which were fucking horrific. Oh, yeah.

45:29 She hated men. Yeah, she really.

45:31 Hated men. Yeah.

45:33 This Judy Hildebrand had been married.

45:35 Yeah. And divorced, which in the

45:37 Mormon Church in and of itself is a big no no.

45:40 She had children that she was estranged from.

45:45 We don't actually know anything about them, which, you know, let

45:48 that be absolutely. They deserve their anonymity and

45:51 to be completely separate from her because Oh my God, yes,

45:54 good, good, good on them. They obviously saw the light.

45:56 I mean, they'd they'd be adults now anyway.

45:59 So but she was somehow then the authority on marriage and the

46:04 authority on relationships and you know, she was going way

46:08 outside her scope of practice in terms of what information she

46:13 was providing to couples in these couples therapy type

46:16 situations, to these men who she said she basically told all men

46:20 that read. Absolutely she would yeah, yeah,

46:22 yeah. And I just say broke up

46:23 marriages over it like in just yeah, that was her MO.

46:27 Like big time yeah. Oh yeah, she.

46:29 She's an evil piece of shit. Oh yeah, yeah, I, yeah, yeah.

46:33 Actually, at the end of this even I'll say she's worse than

46:36 Ruby. Oh, I agree.

46:38 Yeah, I fully agree. I fully, fully agree.

46:40 Yeah. So.

46:43 The what I was getting back to before when we sort of started

46:46 talking about Chad. So I think it's probably worth

46:48 noting as well in all of the the 8 Passengers vlogs, Cherie was

46:52 kind of a bit like the golden child because she, she was the

46:56 eldest, she was a girl. She was, she her personality,

47:01 she's a beautiful now woman, but she's a beautiful girl, very

47:05 well natured. But she went, you could just

47:07 tell she went along. She placated her mum.

47:10 Yeah. She did everything her mum

47:11 asked. She kept, she was the

47:13 peacekeeper of the family. Yeah.

47:15 And we look at that from like a, you know, being parented by a

47:18 narcissist. There is always a peacemaker.

47:21 She was that person and she took on that role.

47:23 She was certainly very much a mother figure for her younger

47:26 siblings. Yeah.

47:28 She and Chad had a very, very close relationship growing up.

47:31 Yeah. And so she was kind of seen by

47:35 Ruby as being this wonderful child and, you know, the poster

47:39 child and whatever. Then, you know, juxtaposed with

47:43 Chad, who, you know, might have looked at porn once, like, is

47:46 the devil child? Yeah, the devil child who, like

47:49 most people, would be enamored to have a child like Chad.

47:52 Ohh, God, I mean, really? Yeah, he's a lovely kid.

47:55 I mean, and and now adult too. I mean, I've seen interviews

47:58 with him very recently and like, wow, wow, Really impressive.

48:01 Very impressive. Yeah, man.

48:02 I mean, and Sherry as well, she's incredibly impressive.

48:05 She's written a book now, obviously, very interesting

48:08 book. And something that she really

48:09 talks about in that book too, is that we think about Ruby,

48:12 Frankie and like Jodie Hildebrand and that becoming

48:15 sort of the, I guess, the start of this, you know, child abuse

48:19 that we get to and things. But it's not so Sherry.

48:22 Sherry also talks about the fact that prior to Jodie, there was

48:27 abuse going on. And you can see that in her

48:29 videos as well, as I was just saying at the beginning how

48:31 that, you know, that she would, you know, be filming and she

48:33 would absolutely unleash, you know, screaming, yelling at

48:36 children there in the background who happened to just interrupt

48:38 her recording, you know, from making kid noises.

48:41 You know, they're in the home. Like.

48:43 You know, yeah. And so apparently that was very

48:46 standard that in their home that they would get yelled at a lot.

48:50 And I don't mean just, I mean we all yell times.

48:53 But she was. OK, you think you yell at your

48:55 kids and then you look at videos like that.

48:56 Oh, and I go, I don't yell. I don't actually yell at them.

48:59 Yeah, yeah. No, she was next level yell at,

49:01 yell at, yelling at her kids. Sherry also talks about, you

49:04 know, like playing the piano and if and learning piano and if

49:07 she's stuffed up, you know, that the, you know, piano leader

49:09 would get shoved on her fingers. And, you know, so there was

49:12 physical abuse as well and things like that going on.

49:15 And it's. Also withholding of food as.

49:17 Well, absolutely. So lots of things like that

49:20 going on prior and then and what actually Sherry says was that

49:24 when Jodie came on the scene, things actually on the they

49:29 looked, they looked better. And she actually was grateful

49:32 for Jodie because what Jodie did for for Frankie, for Ruby at the

49:36 beginning was that she she got her to calm.

49:40 So there was no more yelling. The yelling stopped.

49:43 So she was like, Oh my God, to not be yelled at all the time.

49:46 And she was very like eerily actually level and calm.

49:52 So it was that was something that Jodie Hildebrand brought in

49:55 that, you know, that the that you didn't yell anymore that but

49:58 unfortunately it brought a whole lot of other things that came.

50:01 Do you? Think it's interesting the kind

50:03 of things though that around this time that Ruby was then

50:07 letting show on the vlog. So what I'm referring to is a a

50:11 specific incident that where one of the younger children had left

50:16 their lunch at home and the school rang to say E has left

50:21 her lunch at home. Do you mind bringing if you're

50:23 available, please bring some food up to the school.

50:26 The. Way she speaks about this just

50:28 does. Mind, I know.

50:28 And she's like, and she says to the and this blows my mind

50:31 because I would never. I just would never.

50:34 She says to the teacher, no, she knows the consequences of her

50:36 actions. And she's 6.

50:38 She's 6. She should have packed her own

50:40 lunch. I asked her if she packed her

50:41 lunch and she said she had. And then she says, I really hope

50:44 nobody gives her food today. Yeah.

50:47 She needs to know the consequences of not packing her

50:49 own lunch. So and I know that that would

50:51 make the teacher more comfortable if I went up there

50:53 with us with something for her, but I'm not, I'm not about

50:55 making you more comfortable, teacher.

50:57 My my child needs to feel the consequences of not doing what

51:00 she's, you know, meant to. Do I feel a bit around this time

51:02 there was this it's. Fucking disgusting.

51:05 I just, it's gross. It's absolutely gross.

51:08 But what I can't then understand it.

51:09 I mean there's a whole lot wrong here, but the school I don't

51:14 believe reported anything. No, because I feel like they

51:18 would have just given her food and moved on.

51:20 Yeah. But there have been a lot of

51:21 other things going on too that they would have.

51:23 I think there been a whole picture is what I'm getting at,

51:25 rather than just the food thing. There would have been hang on a

51:30 second. This isn't I mean to get OK, a

51:33 parent saying Oh my God, yeah, my kids not got a lunch box,

51:36 but. I'm in the city and I can't get

51:37 back. Well, there's one thing about,

51:38 you know, like doing the whole, like putting on a show for the

51:40 school and going, Oh my God, I can't live.

51:42 I forgot your lunch. Oh, I feel terrible.

51:43 OK, well, I can't get there. Sorry.

51:45 Yeah. Can you deal with that?

51:46 Yeah, right. Then there's a whole other level

51:49 of her saying no, she needs to have the consequences of that.

51:52 And actually, like burrowing down into this, I'm going to

51:54 have this stance that, you know, my 6 year old needs to feel

51:57 consequences and feel hungry. She wanted her child to feel

52:00 hungry and and voiced that that is someone who has no conscience

52:06 of like that might not be the right thing.

52:09 Oh. No, she fully thinks it's the

52:11 right thing to do. She also says in one of the

52:13 vlogs, Oh, I've told the kids they're not allowed to eat until

52:15 they've finished all their chores this morning.

52:18 Like what? Yeah, food became a.

52:19 Real. And when I say chores, I'm not,

52:21 it's not just like make your bed and then come out for breakfast.

52:23 It was like these kids, there's videos of it.

52:25 She even put this stuff in her vlogs as well.

52:27 Yeah, they are scrubbing walls. They are cleaning skirting

52:30 boards. They're cleaning like in between

52:32 the runner. Like yeah full army shit.

52:34 Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was unbelievable what they

52:36 were expected to do. Yeah.

52:38 And I get it, having six kids, I mean, who's got the time to do

52:40 anything Like, yes, you need, you need to have kids pitch in

52:43 or whatever and do little jobs. But this was not.

52:45 This was full on and not. Withholding food, Yeah.

52:50 That's. That's.

52:50 Next level. Oh, who needs a grumpy buddy?

52:53 Hungry kid? I mean Jesus, but.

52:55 They weren't allowed to be grumpy, No, because then there'd

52:57 be other consequences for them. They were.

52:59 They had. To be on for the camera, that's.

53:01 Right. Oh God, it's just awful.

53:03 Oh, it's horrible. So yes, you do start to see

53:07 abuse on the channel, even though people didn't necessarily

53:11 recognise it as that at this time, I think.

53:13 Point where people did yeah, so. What you're referring to is

53:17 there's a particular vlog that she put out and in it it's

53:21 basically her, Chad and one of the younger children sitting

53:24 there discussing. I don't even know what they were

53:27 discussing. At the time, but this wasn't

53:29 what was gonna come out. It just sort of came out

53:31 naturally. Chad basically said, well, they

53:35 were talking about consequences and she said she gives

53:37 consequences for six months, never less than six months,

53:41 right, so. Kid remembers what they did

53:42 yesterday. When?

53:43 You talked, I know like I've I find it hard to follow through

53:46 in a consequence for a day. No, I do the whole like, you

53:49 know, you're like, oh, that's it, no iPad for a week.

53:50 Oh no. Hang on, wait, I can't do that.

53:53 Half an hour, half. As long as, as long as they, you

53:58 know, as long as there's impact. Let's follow through that.

54:00 But basically in this vlog, Chad basically says, well, I only

54:04 just got my bedroom back two weeks ago.

54:06 I've been sleeping on a bean bag in the basement for six months.

54:13 The whole Ruby. Ruby goes oh I don't think our

54:15 followers know about that Chad, but she keeps it in the vlog and

54:17 posts. She posted it.

54:19 She could have chosen just keep that video out, but she didn't.

54:21 The second it gets posted, yeah the vitriol starts.

54:24 So their comments go from being it overwhelming.

54:27 They'd already been a few comments coming, like it had

54:29 been a little bit of some people picking up on stuff, but this

54:32 was the the absolute turning point.

54:34 Yeah, to the point where like people were running things like

54:37 this is vile. How can you do this?

54:38 This is child abuse. Somebody report them.

54:40 You know the comments. There was a change to all

54:42 petition started as well that ended up 20,000 signatures were

54:47 on it. And it was in a really short

54:48 space of time, like within a week.

54:50 Yeah, within a couple of weeks, if that, yeah, like it was real

54:52 quick, 20,000 people, that's a huge amount of people to sign a

54:55 change that all petition. Oh yeah.

54:57 And so the petition was asking for basically authorities to

55:01 step in for this. They wanted CPS to go and

55:03 invest. Yeah, Child Protective Services

55:05 to go and invest. Absolutely, and I think fair.

55:07 Oh, absolutely. So Ruby actually took that video

55:09 down as soon as she started getting all these negative

55:12 comments. Well, I think she just turned

55:13 comments off. I don't think she actually took.

55:15 It down, she took it down. Yeah, she.

55:16 Took it down because, yeah, Chad talks about like, the fact that

55:20 there were consequences for him for that video.

55:21 And it's like, well, they're not consequences.

55:24 They shouldn't be consequences for him.

55:25 You chose to put that up there. And you thought that that would

55:27 be that That's OK One, you thought it was OK to do it in

55:30 the first place. Yeah.

55:31 And then you thought it was OK for other people to know about

55:34 it and not feel that way. That poor kid.

55:36 I mean, sleeping on a shit mattress can do bad things to

55:41 your back when you're a growing teenager, let alone sleeping on

55:44 a fucking bean bag. But just even the thought of the

55:47 emotional damage of that, of having your, your bedroom

55:51 removed from you, I mean that that's just psychologically so.

55:55 Awful. Oh, it's fucked up.

55:57 It's so fucked. Up.

55:58 Yeah. I mean, God, whether that

55:59 bedroom was a shared bedroom or you know, I'm not talking about

56:02 that, your space where your things are removed from you and

56:05 taken away from you. He wasn't even allowed to go

56:07 into his bedroom. Then because the other thing was

56:09 he also had his door removed from his bedroom at one stage

56:12 and his bathroom door removed so he wasn't even allowed any form

56:16 of privacy. For a teenage boy.

56:19 Come on, No kidding. If this kid was going to school

56:21 and mucking up, good on him, but.

56:24 It was rebellion. Like, of course it was he these

56:27 poor gotcha, these poor kids. Yeah, and that's not even the

56:30 worst of it. Like oh God, not even this stuff

56:32 I don't. Even want to rank it because

56:33 it's all awful. All bad.

56:35 But yeah, it's like just fucked. Up.

56:37 It's so fucked up. You know, I think we haven't

56:40 even mentioned Kevin in all this.

56:41 He's just a passive. Because he's a passenger.

56:44 Yeah. Because we can get to him

56:46 entirely. I have serious opinions.

56:48 Oh. So do I.

56:50 Oh, so do I. We'll get to him.

56:51 We will get to him. Yeah.

56:52 It's just not. Well, because he's not, he's not

56:55 present with this. And that's where he doesn't come

56:57 up, which is. Well, he's not present in the,

56:59 he's not really in the vlogs that much because he's at work

57:02 all day, right. But Ruby certainly discuss in

57:07 some of the vlogs that he's in. He she discusses things.

57:09 She there are, there are certain vlogs that they do where it's

57:12 sort of like talking heads where they're filming themselves

57:14 discussing things that have happened.

57:17 And he just goes along with literally everything she says.

57:20 Yeah, and she gets angry with him sometimes, like in these

57:23 behind the scenes ones that you can see in that documentary I

57:26 mentioned. And he he gets, she's like Chad,

57:30 you've got to talk more. But then he sorry, Kevin, you've

57:33 got to talk more. But then when he says stuff, she

57:36 gets angry at him for saying stuff.

57:37 So he's he's fucked if he doesn't, he's fucked if he

57:39 doesn't. Absolutely.

57:40 But I mean, you know, yeah, enabler, because with this

57:46 incident with Chad, with the bean bag stuff and the video

57:49 being, you know, going not right, not how she wanted it to

57:53 when that blow that happened. She she Chad talks about the

57:57 fact that, yeah, she'd been very calm because Jodi Hildebrand was

58:00 around at this point, obviously, and she'd been calm and not

58:03 yelling and stuff. But when this happened, she

58:06 yelled, she flicked back into her old self and he was getting

58:09 this, you know, absolute vitriol of abuse at him, you know,

58:12 verbally. And Kevin did apparently say OK,

58:16 not this isn't OK. And did tell Ruby stop, Chad

58:21 remove, you know, removed him and said hit him, you go, you go

58:23 and shit. And he was left to calm her.

58:27 So. But I still don't think it was

58:28 a, you know, how dare you speak to my child like that.

58:31 It was more of a, oh, Chad, you know, your poor mum feels awful.

58:34 So I'm going to help her. Like it was a bit more that

58:37 orientated. So, yeah, yeah, yeah.

58:43 So from this point, like obviously this is in 2020, I

58:46 believe the the video, that video went up, yeah.

58:48 It was 20. So there was still they still

58:50 kept putting videos up after this point, but it wasn't until.

58:55 But can I just say, yeah, that, sorry, at this point, this is

58:57 where their subscribership really started declining.

59:01 So they really reached a peak right before this.

59:03 Yeah, at that sort of 2.3 million mark.

59:06 Yeah, you know, massive amounts of money every month.

59:08 And it was around this time that that shift really started.

59:11 Yeah, and also because sponsors started pulling themselves to

59:14 like. Once that, in fact, I believe

59:16 with that one video, they lost 95% of their sponsorship, yeah,

59:20 which which raked in the most amount of money for them.

59:23 So I'm talking they're earning 120 grand a month from YouTube

59:26 revenue. That was their lesser income

59:29 compared with the brand sponsorship Exactly.

59:33 So we're talking so much money it's not even funny.

59:36 Yeah, and. That's what and like so from a

59:38 kids perspective of that, you know, 16 year old, 17 year old

59:41 Chad, he says now even thinking back on it, that was his worst

59:46 fear actually. It was like being so drilled

59:48 into them as a family that this is how they make their money and

59:50 this is how they have their lifestyle, that he was really

59:53 concerned about the money going. That poor boy.

59:57 But that's not for him to. Worry about like he's you know,

1:00:00 that's not OK. I feel I've.

1:00:02 I feel him on that because I know when he's spoken about it,

1:00:05 he feels bad for thinking about the money, you know, and that he

1:00:08 should have like probably made maybe felt more around how he

1:00:12 was being treated. But he was so brainwashed into

1:00:17 what this was that you had to perform a certain way and it's

1:00:20 your fault that we're not getting money.

1:00:21 I mean, to feel like that kind of pressure on you at that age,

1:00:24 it's just. It's not OK.

1:00:26 It's not OK. Yeah, Oh God.

1:00:29 So I guess as the time went on, you know, they are losing,

1:00:34 they're losing followers and the the vibe generally shifted.

1:00:39 They had their core group, yeah, people that were still loving on

1:00:42 them and whatever. But really having lost these

1:00:45 sponsorships and and viewer, the amount of views that they were

1:00:48 getting things. Oh.

1:00:50 Sorry, can I ask you, do you did you ever get into this watching

1:00:54 this stuff? Because it's not vlogging like

1:00:56 this isn't as big a thing now. Thank God.

1:00:58 Yeah, I mean, it's still around. But I mean, I know my kids.

1:01:02 I would watch like those, you know, like his name Ryan, that

1:01:05 kid Ryan and on YouTube and stuff.

1:01:07 And I used to do my head in. But have you ever got into

1:01:10 watching that was I've never got into it.

1:01:12 Whereas there's, there are people who are, you know, very

1:01:15 much, yeah, go to these particular pages.

1:01:18 I just can't. Imagine.

1:01:19 Do they? They must watch it like they

1:01:20 watch TV. Yeah.

1:01:22 You know, it's it. It's.

1:01:23 Yeah. No, I've never.

1:01:25 I never have. I've never been invested.

1:01:27 I hated my kids listening to it like let alone.

1:01:29 My kids have never. I mean, we've kept our kids away

1:01:33 from YouTube. Yeah, my kids don't don't really

1:01:35 watch YouTube at all anymore. Now it's more like, you know, I

1:01:37 kind of look this up on YouTube and like, yeah, you can do that.

1:01:39 Yeah. But yeah, no, but that was one,

1:01:41 because that was one that like got me a bit of the whole, oh, I

1:01:44 can't do this like this whole unwrapping things, you know, or

1:01:47 whatever. You're talking about now, Yeah,

1:01:50 Yeah, right. Yeah.

1:01:51 Yeah, that was one that bloody billion.

1:01:53 Oh yeah. Yeah.

1:01:53 No, he's he's absolutely. He's an absolute.

1:01:56 They've made an absolute fortune in that family.

1:01:58 Yeah, yeah, insane. But that's probably the one I've

1:02:01 watched the most of. Yeah, but I wouldn't even say,

1:02:04 certainly not weekly, you know, thing that we're watching or

1:02:07 daily, let alone. Yeah, but I wouldn't even know

1:02:09 how much they posted. But yeah, like I can't even.

1:02:13 I don't really get the whole watching them.

1:02:14 But no, yeah, there's obviously a lot of people who do.

1:02:17 Yeah, there must be. Yeah.

1:02:18 I mean, if people are still doing it, yeah, Yeah.

1:02:22 So around like as over the next probably couple of years, you

1:02:26 know, they kept vlogging, but things were declining and the

1:02:30 relationship between Ruby and Jodie really started to cement.

1:02:37 Interesting. And so Ruby basically became

1:02:40 like a business partner to Jodie in her connections.

1:02:44 Yeah, cult. Cult.

1:02:48 But so 'cause basically at one point in in 2022, like it, the

1:02:52 eight passengers page just stops.

1:02:54 Things just stop being put on it.

1:02:56 It sort of did filter a little bit.

1:02:58 It was like lessening and lessening, but all of a sudden

1:03:01 one day, no more, it just didn't.

1:03:03 There was four months that went by with no posting whatsoever

1:03:06 and everyone was a bit like without Chico, like what the

1:03:09 hell like so I mean, I yeah, I wasn't anyone who was watching

1:03:12 that to be. I know there's people who have

1:03:15 followed her, obviously then from the get go of this.

1:03:18 And so she was famous. I mean, to them.

1:03:21 Yeah, to them she was. I I mean, yeah, I had no idea

1:03:23 who this person was. Not until we probably hit about

1:03:25 now, about now. Same.

1:03:26 So yeah, four months ago. And she's not online at all.

1:03:30 I mean, what does the hell has happened to this whole family

1:03:32 when they just disappear, when they've been there every single

1:03:35 day for, you know, what was it, 4 years, Five years?

1:03:39 About 2015. Years 2015 they started and they

1:03:42 stopped. Yeah, 2022.

1:03:43 So yes, seven years have been online.

1:03:45 You know, one of the children literally was born whilst they

1:03:47 started. It's insane.

1:03:50 Yeah. So then all of a sudden she pops

1:03:53 up on another YouTube channel with Jodie Hildebrand as her

1:03:57 business partner. Moms of truth.

1:04:00 Vomit. Now this YouTube channel is

1:04:06 interesting. They basically sit on a couch

1:04:09 and preach their shit to people. And so it's not a vlog style,

1:04:14 it's it's. Completely different.

1:04:15 The show. It's the show, yeah.

1:04:17 It's like they've produced. Their It's a talk show, yeah.

1:04:20 And they discuss all of Jodie's wise teaching.

1:04:27 So because at this point like and this, what they're saying is

1:04:30 that that Ruby has trained under Jodie and is now a what she call

1:04:36 herself a fitness. I've actually got it written

1:04:39 down. You, you keep going and I'll

1:04:40 find. It OK yeah.

1:04:42 So she trained in this style of coaching and so that she was

1:04:45 able to coach other families on their, you know, troubles with

1:04:49 their teens and. The and what have you.

1:04:52 Other thing to note is that Hildebrandt had lost her license

1:04:56 at this point. Yes.

1:04:57 So yeah. So she was actually not a able

1:05:01 to practice. This just, it was suspended for

1:05:03 18 months. Yeah.

1:05:04 Yeah. She because she had clients who

1:05:09 she was releasing private confidential information about

1:05:13 to the church and to the university, to BYU, like they're

1:05:17 all LinkedIn with this BYU as well, which is all really weird.

1:05:20 Yeah. So there was she had basically

1:05:23 given client information around. She talked to the church about

1:05:26 clients who were using were watching porn like as if, you

1:05:29 know, they watched it once, but no, they're addicted to porn.

1:05:31 So she was actually telling the church that these men were porn

1:05:36 addicts and all these sorts of things men were losing.

1:05:38 They were losing their jobs and stuff over it because that's

1:05:41 such a no, no in that community that they were.

1:05:44 Yeah. Being shunned by people and

1:05:46 like, being kept out of the church then because, oh, God,

1:05:48 you're, you're evil. It was consolidating what she

1:05:51 was putting to them of saying you're evil with this because

1:05:53 other people were then judging them as well, but on false

1:05:56 information. Really.

1:05:57 Yeah. So.

1:05:57 Yeah. Really gross.

1:05:58 So she was, it was proven that she was doing that.

1:06:03 And so she lost her license for 18 months.

1:06:06 Yeah, so she was then saying that she was a life coach

1:06:09 because that's unregulated and anyone can be a life coach and

1:06:12 say that they're a life coach. So she's now coming across as a

1:06:15 life coach, although she still told people she was a

1:06:18 psychologist. Yes, yeah, but I mean

1:06:20 technically she's got the qualification, but she's just

1:06:23 not licensed. Yeah, in it anymore now.

1:06:25 Well, I just. Forgot to mention that bit.

1:06:26 Yeah, yeah, yeah. God.

1:06:30 So yeah, they, they would show up on this show every week,

1:06:33 whatever the two of them, and they would spout their absolute

1:06:36 disgusting shit. Mm hmm.

1:06:38 But in the background, too. Hildebrand had moved in to the

1:06:42 Frankie home. Yep.

1:06:44 So at this point, Cherie was getting ready to go off to

1:06:47 college and she was a couple of weeks off moving out of home

1:06:51 and. And she got told by Ruby you

1:06:54 need to move all your stuff out of your room now because Jodie's

1:06:57 moving in. Yeah.

1:06:58 Now Kevin describes this time as unusual because.

1:07:04 Obviously. Because so #1 Hildeprint had

1:07:07 this $5,000,000 Mega Mansion Compound compound.

1:07:11 That's a good way to describe it.

1:07:14 Down in a southern part of Ivan's in Ivan's, Utah, which

1:07:19 was about a four hour drive, I think, from from where they were

1:07:22 living in Salt Lake City. Somerville.

1:07:24 It's Springville. Sorry.

1:07:25 Springville. Yeah.

1:07:26 Yeah. So anyway, so she'd come up to

1:07:29 live with them because she was experiencing some, like,

1:07:33 troubles and she thought she was possessed by a demon.

1:07:39 And so when she moved into the house, so first of all, Sherry,

1:07:43 Sherry was kicked out of her room and Jodie moved in there.

1:07:49 And then Kevin was saying that he'd come home and like the

1:07:55 lights. It's actually very funny.

1:07:58 The lights would flick on and off.

1:08:00 Someone Like, You know, and Jodie would have these like

1:08:03 demonic possession type turns where she'd be like, you

1:08:07 couldn't talk to her. She was possessed and she was in

1:08:10 the corner like shaking and her eyes were flicking back in her

1:08:13 head. Float around the place like it

1:08:16 was. So friggin bizarre.

1:08:21 So anyway, I think, well so the way Kevin describes it is that

1:08:29 Jodie, sorry that Ruby was so worried about Jodie that she

1:08:34 used to, at the start she would go up every four hours and check

1:08:37 on her overnight, make sure she was OK.

1:08:40 Then it became every hour and then she said to Kevin, well I

1:08:43 might as well just stay the night with her.

1:08:44 Stay. In her room and look after her

1:08:46 overnight. After her.

1:08:48 So one day Sherry came home from university to get some stuff,

1:08:53 some more things out of her room to take back to college or to

1:08:56 university. And she walked into a room and

1:09:00 there was like massage oil and candles on the bedside table.

1:09:05 And she's like, I knew immediately that mum and Jodie

1:09:07 were having an affair. Like we're in a ring.

1:09:10 When she's interviewed about it, she's very like there was a

1:09:12 relationship and then like I said, you think it got to, it

1:09:15 became physical and she's like, I look, I, I don't know.

1:09:19 And then she just gives this. Yeah, knowing and knowing Green,

1:09:21 but she said in the book, and I think it's actually later, it's

1:09:25 kind of like out there now that they absolutely were in a sexual

1:09:28 relationship together. So OK, but then take that as

1:09:32 what you will, but she's so homophobic.

1:09:34 She's so homophobic. Like just insane.

1:09:37 She's her. She's a horrible, horrible

1:09:40 person. Yeah.

1:09:41 And yet she's having. And you can tell their videos,

1:09:44 their connections. Videos become more and more

1:09:48 intimate. They touch each.

1:09:49 Other on. The leg, they sit so close to

1:09:52 each other it would make me want to vomit.

1:09:54 Like saying if Peter wanted to sit that close to me I'd be like

1:09:57 Nah, Nah Nah Nah, too close, too close, back off.

1:10:02 I can't even, no. So OK, that's what's happening,

1:10:05 right? Unbeknownst to poor old Kev who

1:10:07 thinks they're just platonically sleeping in bed together like a

1:10:10 fucking idiot. Really.

1:10:12 Fucking idiot. Really.

1:10:14 But what Jodi and well, what Jodie decides and then tells

1:10:20 Ruby to do. And Ruby is under Jodie's spell

1:10:22 for sure, like Ruby. Jodie says jump, Ruby says how

1:10:26 high basically says that this separation now needs to happen

1:10:31 between Kevin and Ruby because Kevin, who was once Jodie's

1:10:37 golden head boy in these men's groups that she would run, she

1:10:40 then started to turn on him. And in the groups, he said the

1:10:44 correct. Really, like, bizarre.

1:10:47 Like, I was all of a sudden that, you know, this piece of

1:10:49 shit. Yeah.

1:10:50 Whereas before, I was always, you know, Kevin always does that

1:10:52 brilliantly. Kevin, do you tell us how you

1:10:54 manage that? And Kevin, this.

1:10:55 And then all of a sudden, it was like, well, yeah, Not Kevin.

1:10:58 Yeah. He's now a porn addict.

1:11:00 Yeah. What?

1:11:00 That's something you've said before about everyone else.

1:11:03 Yeah. She had total MO. 100% and so

1:11:07 and she said he was like he had distorted thinking.

1:11:11 And that was a whole thing, the distortion.

1:11:13 Yeah. So that was what she used to

1:11:14 talk to chat about, too. Yeah.

1:11:16 Everything. Everyone had distortions.

1:11:18 Like if you did it like, was like a distortion was like a bad

1:11:20 behavior. And you don't want distortions

1:11:22 in your life. So if someone else did something

1:11:24 that was, you know, a distortion, then you can't have

1:11:27 them in your life because you can't have distortion.

1:11:29 Yeah. It's the weirdest word.

1:11:30 I can't. Yeah, I know, it's weird.

1:11:32 It doesn't really mean anything. No, she just made that up.

1:11:36 Because of that, Jodie's convinced Ruby that Chad and

1:11:43 Kevin, for the same reasons, need to move out of the home and

1:11:46 have separation from the family. Ruby makes Kevin now this even

1:11:51 fucking blows my mind. He literally comes home from

1:11:53 work one day at 5:00 and she's like, you need to move out.

1:11:55 And he's like, OK, yeah. Weak.

1:11:58 Weak as fucking Pierce. Oh, and Chad, as he was 17 was

1:12:03 told the exact same thing, but he wasn't allowed to live with

1:12:05 Chad because they needed separation from each other.

1:12:08 Yeah, so sorry, he wasn't allowed to live with Kevin.

1:12:11 Yeah, because they needed separation.

1:12:12 For Yeah, we'll do this for you, Toby.

1:12:15 What so? Far Kevin moves out, gets

1:12:17 himself an apartment. Yeah, Chad moves out, gets

1:12:19 himself an apartment and a job because even though he's been on

1:12:23 fucking this wildly successful YouTube channel for seven years,

1:12:27 yeah, he actually doesn't have have any of his own money at the

1:12:31 at this exact same time. So then Kevin calls Sherry and

1:12:36 tells her what's going on and says you're not allowed to

1:12:40 contact me. I'm to have no contact.

1:12:42 He was totally. 12 months, yes, from anyone in the family.

1:12:46 And he just, he goes that money. And he goes, yeah, sure, Ruby

1:12:49 then, sorry, Sherry then messaged him after this, 'cause

1:12:53 she was like, Oh my God, after processing that, like, that

1:12:56 doesn't seem right. I need to talk to Dad more.

1:12:58 Yeah, she messaged him and he basically said you cannot

1:13:01 contact me again. Kevin has then told Ruby that

1:13:05 Sherry messaged him. Ruby has then fully banished

1:13:10 Sherry from the family she cut her off from.

1:13:12 So they were paying her rent or whatever at university and her

1:13:16 car insurance or something like and health insurance I think

1:13:18 they were paying for. Yeah, right.

1:13:19 Cut it all off. Cut it all off.

1:13:21 What a fucking sack of shit. What a sack of shit, how could

1:13:24 you do that? There's no way you could do that

1:13:25 to your own child. That's that's so mentally

1:13:28 unwell, so fucked up and the fucking wanker Kevin just

1:13:32 allowing that to happen to not only himself, but his kids.

1:13:34 Yep. And to say you know well you

1:13:36 can't have contact with. 17 year olds just out there in the world

1:13:39 not have not. And he's not allowed to contact

1:13:41 you and. And he's out there.

1:13:42 He's got to find somewhere to live on his own.

1:13:44 Are you fucking kidding? Planet.

1:13:46 Is that in any way normal? Oh, it's just not I.

1:13:51 Can't. And that's where I just go with

1:13:52 with Kevin. You're as bad as anyone in this.

1:13:55 Yep, you are a weak piece of shit.

1:13:58 Yep. I have no time for him.

1:14:00 No. He's a sucker shit, too.

1:14:02 Yeah, I mean, and he's left his children, his four younger

1:14:07 children, in a house that he knows where this woman thinks

1:14:10 she's possessed by the devil and all this shit.

1:14:12 Who? Just walks away from that going.

1:14:15 But hang on, there's some weird shit going in that house and I

1:14:17 don't know, but I'll just leave and leave you guys to it to sort

1:14:21 that out. Like with my young children

1:14:24 there too, and my other older children who you know, are now.

1:14:29 Oh God. Anyway, the other thing that

1:14:30 gets me about this is Ruby rings in one day.

1:14:33 So he's not allowed to contact Ruby, but Ruby can contact him

1:14:37 now. Mind you as well, he's also

1:14:39 still paying child support for all six, six children, right?

1:14:44 OK, so OK, she's taking his money and whatever, doing

1:14:50 whatever with it. OK, yes I know children need

1:14:52 money to live but. No, but if you go kicking him

1:14:54 out like that and like giving him no access.

1:14:55 Also got her and, well, Jodie's money as well at this time

1:15:00 because they had this business together, so their business was

1:15:02 earning money, whatever that's between them.

1:15:04 That bit, yeah, but which he just did whatever she said

1:15:07 anyway. Well, this is it.

1:15:08 He wasn't paying that to like sit, like to sort of go, yeah,

1:15:10 yeah, I care for my kids. He was to do it because he was

1:15:12 being told to. Yeah, that's what I can't stand.

1:15:15 It's the not that you wouldn't pay it.

1:15:16 Yeah. It's the fact of only doing it

1:15:18 because you're being dictated and told to do this.

1:15:20 Like, yeah. Question things, mate.

1:15:22 Question. Things come on.

1:15:24 So he then Ruby rings in one day, and they hadn't had contact

1:15:29 for like literally almost 12 months at this point, right?

1:15:32 And she's like, if I send a document to you, if I put a

1:15:36 document in front of you, will you sign it?

1:15:38 Not knowing what it is? This is an exercise in trust.

1:15:41 And this is part of what we need to do to get back together now.

1:15:44 He wanted nothing more than to get back.

1:15:46 Together, he was literally like, I'll do anything you tell me.

1:15:48 Anything. And so he was like, yes,

1:15:49 absolutely. I'll sign anything you want me

1:15:51 to sign. I trust you.

1:15:52 I trust you implicitly. Trust her as far as I could

1:15:54 throw her? Nope.

1:15:56 So she does that right? She puts this document in front

1:15:58 of him. He has covers any content of it.

1:16:02 He signs it. Oh, Dick.

1:16:04 You know what? You know what the document was

1:16:06 to be able to sell the house. Oh my God.

1:16:09 So she sells the house or put actually, sorry, she puts it up

1:16:13 to rent out to start with, right, Right.

1:16:15 But they're moving out. Ruby, Jodie and the four kids.

1:16:20 Yeah, are moving out. OK OK right.

1:16:22 So they are in the process of all of this and they're moving

1:16:27 into Jodie's compound. Yeah, OK.

1:16:30 OK. Because like during this time,

1:16:36 Ruby was spending more and more time at the compound, Ivan's

1:16:40 with the at the compound, but not the children.

1:16:43 So because quite often Sherry would call CPS and call the

1:16:48 police and ask for welfare checks because she knew that the

1:16:52 children, the young children. So at this point we've got like

1:16:55 about 7-8 year old and sort of 10 year old ish at home by

1:17:00 themselves. Yep, the four youngest will

1:17:03 often left and I'm not talking left to go up to the shops and

1:17:05 get milk, which is not OK either.

1:17:07 No, like days days. Days and days.

1:17:10 So she would call and ask for them to go and do welfare

1:17:13 checks. Now this gets me.

1:17:14 So they would arrive at the house and there'd be no answer,

1:17:20 so they couldn't do anything. Or what?

1:17:23 Well, no, because I heard one account where they knocked on

1:17:27 the window or something and they saw a kid.

1:17:28 Come to the window, they'd see the children.

1:17:30 Yep. And so they were like, oh, we've

1:17:32 seen that the kids are alive and well, but nobody answered the

1:17:34 door, so we had to go away. Yeah, like I'm sorry.

1:17:37 But you didn't even see an adult the issue.

1:17:38 Is that they're unsupervised and no adults in the house for days

1:17:42 on end. Yeah, you needed to speak to

1:17:45 someone, but they classified that as being yet checked.

1:17:47 Well done. Yeah.

1:17:48 No, you haven't spoken to those children.

1:17:50 Do they have food? Do they have access to, you

1:17:52 know, what, are they going to school?

1:17:53 Are they? Do they have an adult looking

1:17:55 after them? And they didn't know.

1:17:57 And so they that sort of, it just was just everything's fine.

1:18:00 We've seen, we've seen them. That's enough.

1:18:02 Not spoken to them, not spoken to anybody else.

1:18:04 Like they just hadn't apparently legally it just there was

1:18:07 nowhere else they could go. For some reason that doesn't

1:18:09 seem that doesn't seem right. I think things have slightly

1:18:11 changed since this because of it.

1:18:13 But yeah, it's at that. And that doesn't sit well.

1:18:16 But Sherry regularly would contact and.

1:18:19 Yeah, well, the neighbors would contact her and say, oh, the

1:18:21 kids have been left at home again.

1:18:22 And yeah, the neighbors, I think they hold some guilt in all of

1:18:26 this as well because. Prior to this, they, they were

1:18:29 very much a a community like around the neighborhood.

1:18:32 And they were, they all knew the Frankie family and we're all

1:18:35 they, they all got along and all, you know, shared in things

1:18:38 out in the yard, you know, and with the kids and would have

1:18:40 barbecues or whatever have, you know, these things.

1:18:42 Particular neighbors then were, you know, put to the side and

1:18:46 wouldn't speak to them. And, and one neighbor in

1:18:48 particular talks about the fact that she kind of removed herself

1:18:51 because she just found it all very weird and couldn't,

1:18:53 couldn't agree with the parenting that was happening.

1:18:56 And, and she just found herself in a position of, oh, I just

1:18:58 can't condone this, but was watching the kids from afar,

1:19:02 going, what do I do to help them?

1:19:04 And she would yet contact Sherry and yeah, like, because it

1:19:07 wasn't OK. So sad.

1:19:10 Yeah. So, so.

1:19:11 So yeah. Ruby was spending a lot more

1:19:12 time at the compound. But then eventually they did

1:19:15 move a couple. Well, three of the three younger

1:19:17 children definitely spent a significant amount of time down

1:19:20 there at the end. Yeah.

1:19:22 So at the time of, I guess this all coming to a head, the three

1:19:28 youngest children were, I'm gonna say, living, but they were

1:19:32 being held captive. Yeah.

1:19:34 Yeah. In the compound in Ivan's.

1:19:37 Yeah. And what the way that this all

1:19:40 came about is so fucking sad. You can see this you just need

1:19:45 to Google the video and it's basically doorbell cameras or

1:19:50 CCTV from people's homes where are who's the youngest boy of

1:19:55 the family. He escapes from the compound one

1:20:01 morning and he goes to neighbors houses and the 1st.

1:20:06 The house he rang the doorbell. There was no answer.

1:20:08 So he goes a few houses down. Knocks.

1:20:11 On there quite fast, like very big blocks of land, obviously,

1:20:15 where they are in big houses, all of them.

1:20:17 But yeah, so he goes through the next one, which is fair way down

1:20:20 the road, yeah. I think it was like 400 yards.

1:20:25 I don't know, but it's. And he had like only socks on

1:20:28 and it was like desert, desert heaps.

1:20:30 This is this is arid desert. Yeah.

1:20:32 Where she lives. Yeah.

1:20:34 So he knocks on the door or rings the doorbell and he waits

1:20:38 there for a few seconds and then he obviously thinks nobody's

1:20:41 home. He starts to walk away.

1:20:42 And then an older man comes to the door.

1:20:45 This man says, how can I help you, son?

1:20:48 And he said I need 2 favors. Yeah.

1:20:52 And the old man goes, well, what are they?

1:20:55 And and he goes, I need you to take me to the nearest police

1:20:58 station. And the man sort of with that

1:20:59 comes out of his house. Yeah.

1:21:01 And he goes come and sit down. He had a like a little patio

1:21:03 chairs. Even the way he little he says,

1:21:05 the R says to him like actually even just that one favour will

1:21:08 do. Yeah, that'll be.

1:21:10 Oh my God. Because the other favour, I'm

1:21:11 dare say is like, perhaps food order.

1:21:12 Yeah. Like, you know, he's like

1:21:14 prioritizing. You know, I just think, just get

1:21:15 me to the police. Yeah.

1:21:16 And the thing was what he explained as well, what I said

1:21:19 to him was that I know I'm in a lot of trouble and so the police

1:21:23 should just take me away. Yeah, he it was his fault.

1:21:26 Like he thought it was his fault.

1:21:27 He was the bad one. Yeah.

1:21:29 So this the, the 911 call that this man makes, He's absolutely

1:21:34 heartbreaking. He's.

1:21:36 He calls 911 and says they need police and they he starts to

1:21:40 describe the condition that R is in.

1:21:43 With that his you can see his wife back and forth in and out

1:21:46 of the house getting food and water for R and they don't

1:21:49 really know what to do. The the wife is panicking.

1:21:51 You can see she's like in a really heightened state, 'cause

1:21:54 I think she's worried that I think ones gonna come and get

1:21:56 you. Can kind of hear her say like

1:21:58 announce and they need to be now.

1:22:00 Yeah, like they don't. It was almost like prioritising

1:22:02 an ambulance for him over the police at this point, Like kind

1:22:05 of stuff. I think she recognised how

1:22:07 malnourished he was. How?

1:22:08 Significant the injuries were because what the man describes,

1:22:13 I think his name was Don, what he describes to the 911 dispatch

1:22:18 is that he's got significant wounds around his ankles and

1:22:21 wrists. The tissue was basically it.

1:22:25 Was down the. Bone apparently the smell was

1:22:27 horrific and he was in filthy clothes and he like he looks so

1:22:34 malnourished his little legs now.

1:22:35 He's a 12 year old boy at this point.

1:22:38 Yeah, he's 12. This.

1:22:40 You could put your fingers around his legs like he.

1:22:44 That's how small he was. Yeah.

1:22:46 Oh God. And he said he was really

1:22:48 thirsty and really hungry, so he hadn't had any water.

1:22:51 So anyway, with that, I think every police officer in the

1:22:55 Ivans area is dispatched and two ambulances because what is asked

1:23:03 is, is there anybody else at the house?

1:23:06 And the Don sort of relays the fact that there are two other or

1:23:12 what are thinks are two other of his sisters in the home.

1:23:16 What transpires actually is. So basically then the police

1:23:19 come and ambulances come. They start tending to our

1:23:24 unfortunate like one of the ambulance officers is seen on

1:23:30 police CC body Cam footage. Sorry, she's breaking down.

1:23:33 She. Couldn't cope.

1:23:34 Many of the police officers admit they were breaking down as

1:23:37 well. And off to the side, they would

1:23:38 literally remove themselves from him and remove themselves and

1:23:41 were crying. And these are like, I mean, the

1:23:44 the earliest of men, like, you know, that have seen a lot.

1:23:47 There's one particular one in one of the documentaries who he,

1:23:51 he clearly looks like he's a man who's seen stuff and LED a life

1:23:55 himself or whatever, like, you know that.

1:23:56 But he said he goes, this was the one that got me.

1:23:59 Yeah. I can't.

1:24:01 It was awful. Yeah, so they go to Jodie's

1:24:05 compound and. They So from an it's an hour

1:24:08 from the moment that rings that doorbell, yeah.

1:24:12 That within an hour they've decided we need to be entering

1:24:14 that property. And now to enter the property of

1:24:17 Jodie Hildebrand's house, they don't need a warrant because

1:24:21 what has transpired already with what R has disclosed, they

1:24:25 believe there could potentially be two children in in danger.

1:24:28 In a similar state. One worse and they were actually

1:24:30 fearful that there could be dead children cause what R said to

1:24:33 them was I haven't seen my sisters in months, a month.

1:24:39 So he he so he believed that there were two other sisters in

1:24:43 the home, but he hadn't seen them in a month.

1:24:46 So the police were like of the opinion that we could be finding

1:24:49 dead children with with his. He did say he'd heard one of

1:24:54 them, yeah, But he hadn't heard the other, no.

1:24:57 So yeah, that, I mean, in the state that he was in, if any

1:25:01 trial was any worse than him, they could be dead.

1:25:04 So this was very, very serious of that point.

1:25:07 So they were allowed to just enter without waiting for

1:25:10 signatures off from judges and things.

1:25:13 They were allowed to just go and enter.

1:25:14 So yeah, within an hour they stormed that property basically,

1:25:18 and now the body Cam footage again, you can see of what goes

1:25:21 on, do you? Think it's bizarre how Jodie

1:25:24 come so she's obviously seen the police arrive at her neighbour's

1:25:28 house. No, I reckon she didn't.

1:25:30 From where? When you look at where she is, I

1:25:32 don't think she could. But when she answers the door,

1:25:34 she's already on the phone to her attorney.

1:25:35 Because AR had left the house, she couldn't find him.

1:25:39 OK. OK.

1:25:40 That's why I reckon that. Is no, yeah, that's fair.

1:25:43 That's actually very fair. Yeah, yeah.

1:25:45 I think that was more the point she knew that he got.

1:25:47 Him. Yeah, because he'd actually

1:25:49 escaped once before. Yes.

1:25:51 He escaped in the middle of the night about 1:00 AM, and Jodie

1:25:55 found him at about 3:45 AM hiding behind a a rock somewhere

1:26:00 in someone else's yard. So.

1:26:03 And he got severely punished for that.

1:26:05 He got locked in a safe, basically safe room for that.

1:26:10 And that was why he was actually being bound because of that

1:26:14 escape attempt, because what the police found when they went into

1:26:19 the house was E, who was 10 years of age, and they found her

1:26:27 in a closet in a upper bar. Empty closet There was no

1:26:30 nothing in there They had no possessions She.

1:26:33 Was literally sitting on the floor with her legs crossed.

1:26:37 The officers didn't actually know whether she was male or

1:26:40 female at the start because her hair had been Hacked Off.

1:26:43 Like cut it. Was all yeah and shaved one even

1:26:46 shaved. Not even shaved was just like

1:26:48 hacked scissors. Yeah.

1:26:50 And she did not say a single word, I think for five hours or

1:26:55 4 hours. Four.

1:26:56 Hours. Yeah, yeah.

1:26:58 And she again, literally her arms and her legs, you could put

1:27:01 your fingers around how small they were.

1:27:03 Like there's a point where you can see in the video of her

1:27:05 sitting there and her elbows and her arms.

1:27:08 And I just went, oh, God, it's awful house, house.

1:27:12 How malnourished she was as well.

1:27:15 And again, you know, same sort of similar sort of markings

1:27:17 around her wrists and things too, but like, they're just left

1:27:23 to oh God, it's awful. And so they'd been there for a

1:27:26 couple of months. Is that right?

1:27:28 At the time they'd been. Helen, they'd been the other

1:27:31 like a month. I know R had definitely been

1:27:33 there the month and obviously I think E as well.

1:27:35 I think they'd been there for 2/2.

1:27:37 So she had seen her prior to that.

1:27:39 Yeah, yes, I think when they first got there they were

1:27:41 together, yeah, in a room together.

1:27:43 But then they got separated. Because in this and in this

1:27:47 compound that was possible, absolutely possible.

1:27:49 You could massive, it was huge. So it's.

1:27:51 Basically one level. I mean, we're talking desert,

1:27:54 you know, It was one level on top of the, like, on top of the

1:27:58 ground, on ground. Level.

1:27:59 Yeah. And then it was underground.

1:28:00 Then there was 2 levels underground.

1:28:02 Who was it? So there was.

1:28:03 This that, that concrete basement.

1:28:05 And then they had the, the maid basement basically, right.

1:28:09 And you know, what the police found was basically doomsday

1:28:12 prep shit. They found so much food and

1:28:15 canned items and refrigerators and freezers full of food.

1:28:20 And I mean, and then they found in the basement, they found this

1:28:24 big safe door. And the police officers asked

1:28:28 Jodie what the combination was because they were afraid of what

1:28:31 they might find. Well, they thought that.

1:28:32 They're still thinking that at this point.

1:28:34 They still thought there was another sister that was still

1:28:36 missing. So yeah.

1:28:38 And she's like, oh, I don't know, I don't remember the this.

1:28:40 Anyway, so one of the officers, the Sergeant actually goes down

1:28:43 there and he's like, oh, look, I'm just gonna try 123456.

1:28:46 And it worked. Yeah.

1:28:50 So opens it up and look, there wasn't anyone in there, but

1:28:53 there were. But what was in there was awful.

1:28:55 Or yeah, so there was a bucket that had cayenne pepper and

1:28:58 honey in it and like a paintbrush, basically.

1:29:00 Yeah, so that was what was on like.

1:29:01 So on ours wrists and ankles, these wounds that he had, which

1:29:05 were from rope and from handcuffs that were had been put

1:29:09 around him and had worn on his wrists and created these wounds.

1:29:13 So then on these wounds which we're going through, the bone

1:29:17 they had, then they would make this paste up cayenne pepper and

1:29:21 honey and put that on the wounds, then put cling wrap

1:29:25 around that and then duct tape. Like the pain of that, the

1:29:30 amount of pain that would 'cause that is torture.

1:29:33 There is no other word for that. Utter torture.

1:29:37 I can't even imagine how painful that would be for him to go

1:29:41 through. They would do and they, yeah

1:29:44 literally would make this paste up to do.

1:29:46 That and apparently there were buckets of it all around the

1:29:48 house. Yeah, fucking weird.

1:29:50 And even the house. Because it was reapplied and

1:29:52 reapplied like they were even they found like, you know,

1:29:55 previously used cling wrap that was covered in this pace that

1:29:58 had been taken off to then put the next one on.

1:30:01 It was literally reapplied and reapplied and reapplied.

1:30:04 They found chains, shackles, rope, handcuffs.

1:30:09 They found all manner of restraints in the house.

1:30:15 There wasn't a lot of furniture in the house was.

1:30:17 It it wasn't it very sparse, very sparse from the body Cam

1:30:20 footage. I mean, I don't know, you didn't

1:30:22 see a lot of that top level, that ground level.

1:30:24 I guess the living space, I guess it was a lot more of the

1:30:26 basements that you saw in it. But yeah, a lot.

1:30:29 It seemed very, I mean, well, the, the bedroom where he was or

1:30:32 the the walk in robe that she was sitting in was very empty.

1:30:35 I mean, there was nothing, nothing, no, not a single bit of

1:30:37 clothing hanging in that wardrobe.

1:30:39 So what you're probably all wondering is where was Ruby at

1:30:42 this time? Yeah.

1:30:43 One where the other other two, where were the other kids there?

1:30:46 So there's obviously, obviously Chad and Sherry, you know,

1:30:48 they're safe and away, but there's still two more children

1:30:51 that were in her care at that point as well.

1:30:54 The two middle girls, where were they?

1:30:56 So what actually transpired was that one of the girls had a

1:31:01 dentist appointment. Now they were living at the time

1:31:04 with a friend of the family. Well, no.

1:31:07 I believe they were with Ruby and she'd received a call, no?

1:31:13 They were living with a friend of the family but one of them

1:31:15 had a dentist appointment that Ruby had to take them to.

1:31:18 So Ruby had actually gone from Ivan's back to Springville to

1:31:24 take this daughter to her dentist appointment, had dropped

1:31:28 the daughter back with the friends who she was staying

1:31:31 with. OK had driven back and as she

1:31:33 was driving back to Ivan's is when she found out.

1:31:37 Oh, so another documentary tells it very different.

1:31:39 Oh really? Oh.

1:31:40 Tommy was that well there that Ruby was with them, the 2 girls,

1:31:44 OK. And I think they were at a

1:31:46 sporting event of some sort for one of them and that there was

1:31:50 friends there who were part of the connections group.

1:31:54 And this woman, she Ruby had got a phone call and clearly it was

1:31:59 that there's shit going down at Ivan's.

1:32:01 So she turned to this woman and just said, oh look, I've got a

1:32:04 bit of a family emergency, they've got to take it.

1:32:07 Would you mind having the girls for the night?

1:32:09 And so she be knows like did the whole oh sure, we can take them

1:32:12 home. Yeah, they can come stay with us

1:32:13 for the night. No worries.

1:32:15 They were only meant to that's there was sort of what they what

1:32:17 that had presented it as interesting.

1:32:19 There's two very different stories.

1:32:21 Yeah, yeah. OK.

1:32:22 So either way. Either way, it kind of makes

1:32:24 sense. But these people?

1:32:25 These kids ended up with. Those with someone else.

1:32:28 Worked either way. But yeah, so it was basically

1:32:30 they were at this house though that they that these people who

1:32:34 had their them in their care had zero understanding of what was

1:32:38 going on back at Ivan's. Oh yeah, is what?

1:32:41 I guess that's the big, the biggest bit of it that the

1:32:43 police are trying to find where these two girls are and they're

1:32:46 looking into things of where they are and they find video

1:32:48 footage of them and try and track down this car they get

1:32:51 into. Then they take them to this

1:32:53 house. So then they the police recover

1:32:55 this doorstep and saying can we please see the girls well?

1:32:58 No, they asked to see the wife first.

1:33:00 Yeah, the wife, yeah, because that's who they were tracking

1:33:02 the car. Well, that was the the the

1:33:04 number plate they had. And so is she home?

1:33:06 Yeah, Yeah. Because I was still like, you

1:33:07 know, we assume the girls are in this vehicle and that that's

1:33:10 who's got them. So yeah, spoke to her and, and,

1:33:12 and said to her, well then can we see the girls?

1:33:15 And she was a bit apprehensive at first kind of going, but you

1:33:17 know why? And and a bit like, you know, I

1:33:19 mean, you would they're not your kids.

1:33:20 And you're sort of like going, well, why the police wanting to

1:33:22 act, you know, someone else's children, like you just come and

1:33:26 take them away or what the hell. Yeah.

1:33:27 So I can fully understand their reaction.

1:33:29 And she was very apprehensive. But and the girls do sort of

1:33:32 come out, but they're very scared.

1:33:33 Yes, really, really scared because.

1:33:36 They've been told to fear the police.

1:33:37 Yeah. This is it.

1:33:38 They've been told never to talk to the police.

1:33:40 The police are untrustworthy. They've really brainwashed the

1:33:43 kids in that sense. And they, I mean, I guess Jodie

1:33:47 and Ruby also felt that or believed that they talked

1:33:53 themselves into the exact same thing.

1:33:55 Oh, totally. So I guess right at this point,

1:33:59 Jodie's arrested and so is Ruby. Once she gets back to the house,

1:34:03 she's arrested. She says not a word.

1:34:06 Not like where? I'm like kids.

1:34:08 No. Where is where's R?

1:34:09 Where's E? Are they OK?

1:34:11 When they say to you don't talk to the police, like, you know,

1:34:14 until your lawyer's present, Yeah, they don't mean that.

1:34:16 You can't say yeah, sure, I'll have a glass of water.

1:34:18 Yeah, or you can ask after your fucking children.

1:34:23 Totally. I mean, yeah, OK, Yeah.

1:34:25 What you do and say, don't say can be held against you.

1:34:27 What you don't say can be held against you.

1:34:31 It equally goes the fact that you wouldn't answer a single

1:34:34 question even about can I help you and get you a glass of water

1:34:37 and barely you'd get a nod of her head.

1:34:40 She didn't even do that. She just like.

1:34:42 Stared. Oh, that's so creepy.

1:34:44 So creepy. Jodie's a bit more relaxed and a

1:34:47 bit more talkative. Well.

1:34:48 She talks herself. She just thinks that shit don't

1:34:51 stink and God, yeah, they're like, she thinks she's so much

1:34:53 smarter than them. Oh, doesn't.

1:34:55 She. She's like, you know, I'm a

1:34:57 psychologist. Yeah, yeah, that makes you

1:34:59 worse. Like, I know, I know what people

1:35:01 do. I know people twist words.

1:35:04 So I'm not talking to you because I don't know how you're

1:35:06 gonna twist my words. And the police officer says,

1:35:09 luckily for both of both sides, yeah, it's filmed and it's audio

1:35:13 recorded. So we've actually got backup.

1:35:16 And that's for your protection as much as it is for ours.

1:35:19 We don't want anything twisted here.

1:35:21 We just want to know what you're trying to say.

1:35:23 And what? Yeah.

1:35:24 Why the hell? Well, my.

1:35:25 Well, then she goes, Well, then why has my lawyer told me not to

1:35:27 say anything to you? Because your lawyer knows you're

1:35:29 fucking guilty. Yep.

1:35:33 Oh man, like it just you have. Tortured 2 young children.

1:35:37 Yeah, yeah. And to be honest, as much as

1:35:40 like Ruby's interview like that is is just ridiculous and how

1:35:43 she she does that I can't even how she just stands there and

1:35:47 refuses like sits there and then stands there later another video

1:35:49 like refuses to answer the place when they're literally asking

1:35:52 her the most simplest of things. It just kills me.

1:35:56 Worse than that though, I find, is that they then bring in

1:35:59 Kevin. Well, Kevin.

1:36:01 Ruby rings Kevin when she's on her way down from Springville to

1:36:06 when she's on her way from Springville to Ivan's.

1:36:09 She rings Kevin, and he sees her number come up on his phone.

1:36:13 And now they haven't spoken since he signed those papers,

1:36:16 right? Yeah.

1:36:17 To sell the house or whatever it was with to do with the house

1:36:20 that he didn't even know he'd done that because he just signed

1:36:22 something blindly. Fuckward, dickhead.

1:36:23 So he's delighted to get this call from Ruby.

1:36:27 She says to him, you need to get to Ivan's police station to pick

1:36:31 up our children, right? And he just goes, OK.

1:36:36 Because I'm a minion, he. Gets in the car, he thinks, Oh

1:36:38 my God, all my Christmases have come at once.

1:36:40 I get to see Rudy needs me. I get to see my children.

1:36:43 I'm finally going to be back in the fold.

1:36:45 He gets 4 hours car ride. He gets to Ivan's, gets to the

1:36:49 police station, says to the police officers, I'm I'm Kevin.

1:36:54 Frankie. Immediately he's a suspect.

1:36:58 They then start questioning him and it's pretty evident pretty

1:37:02 quickly that he has no idea what's going on.

1:37:05 But no idea in the sense of that you're culpable like as in.

1:37:09 Yeah, to the point where he doesn't even know the welfare of

1:37:12 his own children, 100 percent, 100%.

1:37:15 Like, how could you as a parent not know that your kids are

1:37:20 like, I wouldn't, you know, even to know.

1:37:23 Did such and such go to school today or have they been sick or,

1:37:26 you know, how did sports go for this kid or did this kid have a

1:37:30 concert today? How did that go?

1:37:31 Do we need to have an appointment at the school and

1:37:33 chat about their challenges they're having like.

1:37:35 Nothing. Nothing.

1:37:38 He hadn't had contact with Ruby about the kids for months.

1:37:41 He hadn't spoken to any of his children for 12 months.

1:37:46 And even when they do say to him that the two younger ones are in

1:37:49 hospital. Oh, not what?

1:37:53 Like no, no panic. Are they OK?

1:37:55 Because there's no. He says in that documentary,

1:37:57 though, he didn't know how to react because he didn't want to

1:38:00 implicate Ruby. Well, fuck Ruby.

1:38:03 But he didn't think that way. I know, but like.

1:38:05 Fuck Ruby. Yeah.

1:38:06 Fuck Ruby. Totally Fuck Ruby.

1:38:08 Oh my God. But he was worried because at

1:38:10 one point they asked him who called you to tell you to come

1:38:13 here? Yeah, right.

1:38:15 And he's like, I, I, I'm not going to say.

1:38:17 Oh, you're a Dick. I can't speak, makes me so

1:38:20 angry. Yeah, it makes me so mad.

1:38:23 Oh, he just the enabling the weakness of him like step up

1:38:29 mate for your kids they. Need you to not be a weak piece

1:38:33 of shit. They need you to be strong.

1:38:35 Yep, they need you to take charge of this situation.

1:38:37 They need you not to pander to their mother.

1:38:40 Take that bitch down like it's done.

1:38:44 You need to stop there. So if he had just stepped in so

1:38:48 much earlier with this and like not allowed any of this to

1:38:52 occur, he could have done that. He could have put things in

1:38:55 place to stop. This for sure.

1:38:58 And not saying that like they needed to be then, you know,

1:39:02 jail time necessarily for people because you could have avoided

1:39:04 it getting to that. Yeah.

1:39:07 Dickhead. Although they are with.

1:39:10 Any. Oh, absolutely.

1:39:10 Totally. So where are we now?

1:39:13 We're at basically at the point where, so Kevin, the police have

1:39:17 actually put the kids on, well, sorry, Child Protective Services

1:39:21 have put the kids on a 72 hour medical hold.

1:39:23 Absolutely. What Which is the right thing to

1:39:26 do? Gotcha.

1:39:27 What that actually means, though, is that Kevin's not

1:39:29 allowed to see them. Nobody.

1:39:30 Nobody from the family is allowed to see.

1:39:33 Not neither should they like, I mean, at this point in time, we

1:39:34 need to find out who's done this to them.

1:39:36 That's right. And to.

1:39:37 Gather all of the information. Like, yeah, I mean, you don't

1:39:39 know who's then going to be able to get into that room and, I

1:39:42 don't know, finish things off, manipulate the children to say

1:39:44 things, tell them not to talk. And you need those kids about to

1:39:47 say what's actually happened and be honest, but also be safe.

1:39:50 Like it's just yeah, no, no, no. Yeah.

1:39:53 So that's all good. And well, I believe that they

1:39:57 are then released into the custody of foster carers.

1:40:01 Now we don't know. Nothing was sort of said about

1:40:04 that, which is completely fair and as it should have been.

1:40:07 I hope they went to family but we don't know.

1:40:10 We don't know. All we know is like, even to

1:40:11 this day, Kevin is not a guardian of the children.

1:40:15 He is now. Oh, has he just recently got

1:40:18 custody? Has he got custody?

1:40:19 Oh, OK. Last I already had was still

1:40:20 fighting for it. No, he got custody recently of

1:40:23 the four younger children. Oh, the three younger children,

1:40:26 because I. Think the oldest, yeah.

1:40:27 The elder of the fourth now. Now of age.

1:40:29 Yeah, so. Basically I feel about that.

1:40:32 Yeah, well, I don't, I don't know either actually.

1:40:36 I don't. My only thing with that is that

1:40:37 Sherry and Chad are a part of it as well.

1:40:40 That's right. And I that will be my only.

1:40:42 Yeah. Saving Grace I think Chad's a

1:40:45 lot more involved because he and his dad have maintained a

1:40:50 relationship. Sherry and her dad are on the

1:40:53 path to reconciliation. Yeah, she, she's got a very good

1:40:56 attitude to it. Yeah, I think, you know, I

1:40:58 don't. I wouldn't want to be in her

1:40:59 shoes to make those decisions, but she seems to have her head

1:41:02 screwed on of like being able to know that that's her dad, that's

1:41:07 her siblings, and then what's best for them and being able to

1:41:10 maintain a relationship that works for managing all.

1:41:13 Of that. But she still calls him Kevin

1:41:16 and she doesn't call him. She actually calls her old

1:41:19 school teacher and his wife mum and dad.

1:41:21 Yeah. Yeah, because she feels they've

1:41:23 been more. Than and they have been those

1:41:25 two people are like the salt of the earth, aren't they?

1:41:28 Like they are what? OK, that is when you think of

1:41:30 like Mormon, that is what you you think of them like.

1:41:33 They are lovely, genuinely down to earth people.

1:41:37 You can tell they love Sherry. Yeah, so, so much.

1:41:40 And genuinely, they're. All thinking about it.

1:41:43 Absolutely nothing more to it than that.

1:41:45 Like it's. They have her best interests at

1:41:46 heart. Yeah, for sure.

1:41:48 Yeah. So thankfully, Sherry's got

1:41:50 that. Yeah.

1:41:50 Which is wonderful. And she's got that support from

1:41:53 them. And she calls the mom and dad to

1:41:55 this day. And she has said she will never

1:41:57 see Ruby. So let's get to all of what

1:42:00 actually happened. So the women initially were

1:42:03 charged with two counts of aggravated assault on a minor.

1:42:07 Yeah. And were went to prison straight

1:42:10 from where they were arrested. Yeah, awaiting a trial or

1:42:14 whatever was going to come of it.

1:42:16 Yeah. They both ended up pleading

1:42:18 guilty. Yes to 4 count, 4 counts. 4

1:42:22 counts, 4 counts each. Yeah, 4 counts.

1:42:24 Of aggravated. Child abuse.

1:42:26 Child abuse, yeah. Now, when Jodie's hearing was

1:42:32 first, I believe and she. Well, no, I think what I was at

1:42:35 the same time prior to that in that they were.

1:42:39 So they were both charged with the same thing.

1:42:41 And Ruby overheard a conversation where she worked

1:42:45 out because in all of this she was I've done nothing wrong and

1:42:50 not I there's nothing, I'm not guilty, all these sorts of

1:42:53 things. I don't know how you could.

1:42:54 But anyway, in the end, she actually overheard a

1:42:56 conversation where she realized that Jodie was blaming her for

1:43:00 what had happened to the. Kids.

1:43:01 Oh yeah, Yeah. And that was where she went

1:43:04 well. I reckon that was like, I don't

1:43:06 think she accidentally. No, I don't think there was any

1:43:08 accident. I think authorities knew what

1:43:09 they were doing there. Yeah.

1:43:11 And we're like. And so once she realized that

1:43:13 that she was going to be put in it by Jodie.

1:43:16 Yeah. And that that she didn't.

1:43:17 And I rightly, I agree with this about the other thing I'll

1:43:20 probably agree with with Ruby on.

1:43:21 Yeah. Fuck that bullshit.

1:43:23 I'm Jodie. You're going down.

1:43:25 She decided to plead guilty and to testify against Jodie.

1:43:29 Yeah, which meant that when Jodie then found out that that's

1:43:33 what was going to happen, Jodie backed down to and also pled

1:43:36 guilty. So we've got so then both of

1:43:39 them pleading guilty. Just go back one step though.

1:43:41 When they were first arrested and put into prison, Jodie rang

1:43:47 Kevin and there was a conversation they had and it's

1:43:50 recorded. So you can actually hear this

1:43:52 for yourself. It is the most awful fucking

1:43:56 phone call. Again, wake as shit, Kevin.

1:43:58 But he says to Jodie, sorry, no, no, sorry.

1:44:01 He says to Ruby on the phone, you know, all the, you know, the

1:44:04 kids are in hospital. And she says, oh, that's a bit

1:44:07 overkill, no need for that. What the hell?

1:44:12 These are kids that were nearly dead.

1:44:13 They were nearly dead like one of the physicians who treated

1:44:17 them basically said had they gone on for a few more days

1:44:20 especially are he probably would have died.

1:44:24 Wow days days away. They were so stubborn.

1:44:28 But for him it would have been sepsis, I think, because his

1:44:31 wounds were so. Badly infected.

1:44:33 Yeah, the wounds were horrific. Yeah.

1:44:36 So she's just an absolute evil piece of shit to be thinking

1:44:38 that. Not, not did.

1:44:40 She didn't ring Kevin to say Oh my God, are our kids OK?

1:44:43 Are they alive? Like she wasn't even at Ivan's

1:44:48 when this occurred. Like, I don't know how many days

1:44:50 she had been away, you know, was it?

1:44:52 And how long had she seen E or R?

1:44:55 Because in the thing. That I read she'd left at 3:00

1:44:57 that morning to get to pick up her daughter for the dentist

1:45:01 appointment by 7:30 or something.

1:45:03 But in that compound, if Rs not saying E is Ruby not seeing one

1:45:08 of that is is Jodie inflicting this stuff?

1:45:10 I mean, we don't. And we don't know.

1:45:12 So she's not even asking quite the right questions at this

1:45:15 point for me. Yeah, of any of it.

1:45:17 She's not asking any questions. She's adamant, oh, that's a bit

1:45:20 much. That needs to be in hospital.

1:45:22 So. And I think Kevin's response, I

1:45:24 mean, because I find him a weak piece of shit, in hindsight, I'm

1:45:27 like, yeah, did he? Did he just not realize just how

1:45:29 bad it is because he hadn't seen them and wasn't allowed to see

1:45:31 them? But surely people were

1:45:33 explaining to him why they needed to be in that position of

1:45:35 not being. Well, the police officers in his

1:45:38 original interview, yeah, said to him, they're malnourished.

1:45:42 They're malnourished. They're emaciated.

1:45:43 And he's like, what? Does that mean I'm like, what do

1:45:46 you mean? What does that mean?

1:45:47 That means the kids are not good.

1:45:50 Like I, I, I'm just sort of a bit of insight into him.

1:45:53 Then I went, You're not an overly intelligent person.

1:45:56 Like he's a professor of engineering, Like maybe he's

1:45:59 book smart. I don't know.

1:46:00 Like life. Not smart, not smart.

1:46:02 Yeah. Oh, God, yeah.

1:46:06 But that phone call kills me. But so also though later on

1:46:09 which I felt we found out was found out was that she actually

1:46:12 called Chad as well at this time.

1:46:14 And her initial phone call with him, he he speaks about as being

1:46:19 absolutely horrific. And he said it's actually the

1:46:21 first time he found a voice and telling her what he thought.

1:46:25 And he really went at her of like, you're wrong, you've done

1:46:28 the wrong thing. And so he, he's, he reflects on

1:46:32 that conversation to this day around, you know, how that

1:46:35 impacted him of being able to one voice things, but also have

1:46:38 her coming back at him going, no, no, I've done nothing wrong.

1:46:42 Because he hung up from that phone call too.

1:46:44 And the next thing he found that he had no money in his bank

1:46:46 account from his work on 8 passengers.

1:46:50 She took all that money to pay for our lawyers.

1:46:53 Yep, so well what she actually did, which this is so fucked up.

1:46:56 Yeah, part of when Kevin signed this piece of paper, he must

1:47:01 have signed a couple of different things because she

1:47:04 withdrew all of the cash that they had, like, and literally

1:47:07 withdrew it as cash, put it in a bag.

1:47:09 Yeah, emptied all of the children's bank accounts, put

1:47:13 all of that cash in a bag and it totaled something like $87,000.

1:47:18 And that bag of cash, it was seen by the police when they did

1:47:24 their thorough search of the premises.

1:47:26 Once they had a search warrant, they found that money, but they

1:47:31 had nothing to do with it. They documented that it was

1:47:33 there and left it there. What they think now has happened

1:47:38 is that Ruby's lawyer has gained access to the house and taken

1:47:42 that bag of money and is using that money as as part of her

1:47:47 payment for defence. Yeah, right.

1:47:48 Because nobody really actually knows what happened to that bag

1:47:51 of money, right? The police.

1:47:52 The police certainly know that it existed.

1:47:56 Yeah, but it's not there now. Right.

1:47:59 OK. You know, Chad says it said the

1:48:00 way he says it is that was, you know, it was used for his

1:48:03 lawyers. But yeah, that's interesting

1:48:05 that yeah, his assumption is that I guess in that sense, but

1:48:07 yeah, but he said, so he has one more phone call with her a few

1:48:11 weeks later. And in that phone call that's

1:48:13 after she's realized that this is all shit.

1:48:17 And he said that was a very interesting phone call where she

1:48:19 apologized to him actually. And like she he he says it was a

1:48:23 very genuine phone call. She broke down crying and and he

1:48:26 goes, I'm all I I totally understand people know that she

1:48:29 has crocodile tears. Totally understand that that's

1:48:32 what who she is and does that this was genuine and so he he

1:48:36 he's he to this day doesn't have a relationship with her and he

1:48:39 doesn't even think he ever will. But he at least appreciates the

1:48:42 fact that that phone call, she she got it.

1:48:46 Yeah, it it had maybe registered that this.

1:48:49 Was not, even if he just needs to believe that.

1:48:51 Then yeah. Absolutely.

1:48:52 Because for him, just for himself.

1:48:54 To move on. It didn't do enough for him to

1:48:56 go. Oh, great.

1:48:57 Well, Mum, I'm gonna start a relationship with you now.

1:48:59 It was, it was certainly not to that level, but it was at least

1:49:03 enough for him to go, OK, good. Yeah.

1:49:06 But I'm moving on my life away from you.

1:49:08 Yeah. Yeah, I find this sentencing

1:49:10 really interesting, the way they do it in Utah.

1:49:13 So each charge comes with it, a range of sentence.

1:49:18 Yeah. So as part of the plea deal that

1:49:22 they did, both women did, was that they both pled guilty and

1:49:27 they also agreed to serve consecutive sentences.

1:49:32 So what that means is that for each of those four charges, they

1:49:36 will serve 11, the sentence for one charge, then served after

1:49:41 that served the sentence for the next and the next and the next.

1:49:44 Under the law in Utah, though, the the charges that they plead

1:49:49 guilty for attract A1 to 15 year maximum.

1:49:55 So minimum of one year, maximum of 15 years.

1:49:59 Once they've served, they can serve the first charge at 100%

1:50:04 of the sentence. The second, third and 4th

1:50:07 charges they serve at 50% of what they're given.

1:50:10 Right. But but it's actually not up to

1:50:13 the judge to impose a sentence. It's up to the parole board.

1:50:17 So they've been sentenced to between 1 and 30 years.

1:50:22 Yeah. In prison.

1:50:23 Sorry, 4 and 30 years is it? Well, it's technically it's 4

1:50:27 and 60, but it's capped. At 30, it's capped at 30 because

1:50:30 of this 50% reduction for the consecutive yeah sentences.

1:50:34 Yeah. So between 4 and 30 years.

1:50:37 So technically they could be out pretty bloody soon.

1:50:40 So this all happened. They were sentenced in November

1:50:43 2023. Yeah, They already served some

1:50:45 time up until that point. So I believe they could actually

1:50:48 be out next year if they get their minimums.

1:50:51 I don't think they'll get, I don't think.

1:50:54 They'll get more than that. But the extensive like what,

1:50:57 what R&E were presented as at that point when they were

1:51:02 arrested, I can't see that it would be that.

1:51:04 I mean, I don't know in what world one year is enough for

1:51:10 each of those charges. So I I would hope that any

1:51:14 parole board would in any case of this would not give one year

1:51:18 but what I was. Reading most sentences tend to

1:51:22 fall somewhere in the middle, so people are thinking they'll

1:51:24 probably serve somewhere around the. 15 year, I hope it's 15

1:51:27 years of the minimum. Yeah, I really do.

1:51:29 Yeah, I think totally warrants that.

1:51:31 Oh. So do I.

1:51:32 The thing I can't comment though is they're both in the same

1:51:35 prison. Yeah.

1:51:36 Do you reckon they're doing? It gay for this day.

1:51:40 They were gay before this, I know this.

1:51:41 Is like, doesn't count, does it? I mean, I mean, I've heard that

1:51:47 I think Jodie's got some health issues, but then I don't know

1:51:50 how much I believe of that. So yeah, just oh, God, I can't

1:51:55 with the both of them. I mean, surely at this point, I

1:51:58 mean, yeah. Are they are they having it off

1:52:00 in there or are they avoiding each other like the plague

1:52:02 because they now does one of them or both of them save the

1:52:05 other one for who they are? Narcissistic sacks of shit.

1:52:09 They're both. They're both sacks of shit.

1:52:12 Yeah, I've read sort of psychologists, like actual real

1:52:14 psychologists, not Jodie Hildebrand's reports on what

1:52:18 they believe. And they their their strong

1:52:20 belief that Jodie would be sorry.

1:52:23 Ruby is the one I read about. Ruby would be diagnosed with

1:52:27 narcissistic personality disorder.

1:52:30 I haven't heard any. I haven't heard read a report on

1:52:32 Jodie at all, but I'm fairly certain that that's got to be up

1:52:34 there as well. Oh yeah, yeah.

1:52:36 Which is interesting to have two of them in a relationship

1:52:39 together. I think they're feeding off of

1:52:41 each other. OK, you know, but.

1:52:43 Yeah, they were building a different.

1:52:45 Types of narcissism, I guess, too, in the way that they

1:52:48 manipulated and worked from each other.

1:52:50 Yeah, what they were both getting out of what their supply

1:52:52 was. Yeah.

1:52:55 Yep, they're just roast humans. Absolutely.

1:52:58 And I'm, I don't know about you, but I in this, there is a part

1:53:02 of me that's like, I still think Kevin needs to cop some time

1:53:06 too. And I know that there's no legal

1:53:10 way of doing it, but morally step up for your kids.

1:53:15 You were it's neglectful what he did.

1:53:17 He left them in the situation and he he had enough information

1:53:21 to know that that was not a safe environment.

1:53:24 Yeah. So I mean, the fact that the

1:53:27 that Sherry was contacting police regularly saying, you

1:53:29 know, like they're being left alone and that he is floating

1:53:32 around the cosmos, you know, well.

1:53:34 He didn't live that far away from it.

1:53:36 He could have very easily. And he just followed her

1:53:38 instructions of don't contact me and don't have any any part of

1:53:41 this. Like who does that?

1:53:43 Who? If you genuinely love your

1:53:45 children, I would fight to the death for my children.

1:53:49 I think most people would, but he's just oh.

1:53:52 No, I don't know to just go. Yeah, yeah, sure, love.

1:53:54 I'll. I won't see my children for 12

1:53:56 months. He was so enamoured by Ruby, so

1:54:00 why to her? I don't know.

1:54:02 Because even even I'm talking now pre Jodie coming into the

1:54:07 picture in their vlogs, Yeah, she's not.

1:54:09 To me, she's not a likable person.

1:54:11 No, I mean the way she yelled at them and.

1:54:13 But but even you didn't see that in the vlogs early on, even

1:54:16 just. But that was happening in the

1:54:18 background. Apparently that's right.

1:54:19 But I'm, I'm just looking from what she was putting out there

1:54:22 right back in the early days, not knowing all of that stuff

1:54:26 about the yelling and what her actual personality was like.

1:54:28 Yeah, I didn't even like what I saw of her then in the clips

1:54:31 that I've seen. Yeah, I guess that's a general,

1:54:33 well, I guess it's personally a type who do that blogging sort

1:54:36 of thing that I can't stand, that there's a fakeness to it

1:54:40 that you can see. Yeah, maybe that's what is.

1:54:42 And you pick up, I don't know, something genuine about it was

1:54:45 always like I was telling about that Ryan family.

1:54:47 But before my kids used to watch.

1:54:49 Their voices were great on me. And I'd be like, I can't, can

1:54:52 you turn it off? I can't stand that fake.

1:54:55 I'm excited about this bullshit when you're really not.

1:54:58 You're just putting it on for the camera.

1:54:59 Like, yeah, it's, yeah. Can you watch a video like a

1:55:02 genuine, like, I'm talking 80s, nineties, when the VHS recorder

1:55:05 would come out, you know, you know, and you hear families

1:55:07 communicating with each other in very natural ways.

1:55:10 That is completely different sound to what these people

1:55:14 present. For sure.

1:55:15 Yeah, yeah. Yep, Yep.

1:55:17 Yep, Oh, Yep. Nah, Nah, Goldberg style.

1:55:21 You know the. Goldbergs.

1:55:24 Oh guys, Anyone who hasn't watched The Goldbergs get on it

1:55:27 I've. Got a vlog?

1:55:27 It is. The best.

1:55:29 Yes, that's exactly right. It's the best show.

1:55:31 I love it. Oh, good.

1:55:32 OK. Have.

1:55:34 Is there anything else you want to get to?

1:55:35 Because I do have a quote that I would like to end on.

1:55:37 Go for it. Yeah.

1:55:38 So this Sherry's book, which is well worth a read, is called In

1:55:44 the House of My Mother, and in it she sort of sums up in a

1:55:48 single paragraph the significance of their family

1:55:51 story and why the public was so fascinating.

1:55:55 And I just thought, she's such an astute young woman.

1:55:58 She's only 21. Oh no, she's engaged to be

1:56:01 married. Her life's going good and that's

1:56:03 her life's going really well, yeah.

1:56:04 And she deserves that. She now wants to be out of the

1:56:07 public eye, which I can totally understand.

1:56:09 Sorry. She's happy to be in the public

1:56:10 eye. She doesn't want her future

1:56:12 husband or future children to be in the public.

1:56:14 She. Beautifully posted like that,

1:56:16 her photo of her engagement ring and everything, and then just

1:56:18 went in her comment of it was like, this will be the last that

1:56:20 I post. Really.

1:56:21 Like, yeah, she just isn't gonna put that stuff out in the world.

1:56:24 Like that. So yeah, I think she's doing a

1:56:26 lot of advocacy work for children who are part of these

1:56:29 vlogging family. She puts a bill to state.

1:56:33 So she's hoping that we'll eventually be in every state of

1:56:36 America where that they now children who are involved in

1:56:40 these these vloggings and things and need to be paid.

1:56:44 And so it's now in in law in Utah that that children are paid

1:56:50 for these things, which there is actually like a movement between

1:56:53 in these vlogging worlds that women hate her, you know,

1:56:57 because they they now have to pay their children for what they

1:57:00 are on. And there's also other

1:57:02 stipulations. That is the fact that they are

1:57:04 an employee and that what that, you know, with any person who is

1:57:08 employed, there are conditions of how they can be treated.

1:57:11 You know how long they can be filmed for, how long they, you

1:57:14 know, between filming takes and having breaks and stuff that

1:57:18 they have rights now which they didn't have before and they

1:57:21 don't like. Good on her.

1:57:22 A lot of amazing young woman. Oh, gotcha.

1:57:25 She's incredible. Yeah, she wrote.

1:57:28 Who knew that in the age of viral scandals and cancel

1:57:31 culture, it would be the wholesome, family centred

1:57:34 content of LDS vloggers that would capture the world's

1:57:37 attention? And who would have foreseen that

1:57:39 my own family would come to embody both the wholesome ideal

1:57:44 and the scandalous, becoming a cautionary tale of what happens

1:57:48 when the line between authenticity and performance

1:57:51 becomes blurred beyond recognition?

1:57:55 Yeah. Oh yeah.

1:57:59 Good on there. Let's hope Ruby and Jodie stay

1:58:03 in prison for as long as humanly possible.

1:58:05 I never buddy pick up a camera again and never had access to

1:58:09 children because I mean we should say Jodie's known for

1:58:14 this like so she's had a niece or yes.

1:58:16 It's a niece. It's come out actually uses they

1:58:19 them pronounce. So Jessie has come out and

1:58:23 spoken about their experience of Jodie when she was 1516.

1:58:27 Now they were sent to live with Jodie because they were

1:58:31 rebelling as a teenager and all those sorts of Jodie was very

1:58:34 teaching, being like the Messiah.

1:58:36 The auntie Jodie was then, you know, yeah, she's Jodie's a

1:58:39 psychologist. She'll know what to do.

1:58:41 So we'll send Jesse there. And Jesse, they said that when

1:58:45 they heard all about what was going on for Ruby Frankie's

1:58:48 children, that was all the same stuff that they had gone through

1:58:52 when they were 16 and all the same stuff.

1:58:55 The cuffing of them and all the cayenne pepper and the honey,

1:59:01 all that was used on them at that stage, withholding food.

1:59:05 They said that that was really exactly what they had

1:59:08 experienced and nothing was done to to save them at that point.

1:59:12 There was no one put in place to support them.

1:59:14 So thankfully they got to the end of their stint with Jodie

1:59:18 and got managed to get out. I think she they were maybe like

1:59:21 18 when they finally were able to get away and moved off and

1:59:25 that was that. But no, there was no

1:59:27 repercussions for what Jodie had done to them.

1:59:29 So they were very happy to hear that they that she has gone off

1:59:33 to jail for this and copped what she needed to cop because she

1:59:37 deserves it. Yeah.

1:59:38 It's not the first time. Yeah.

1:59:40 Oh God, so much. OK.

1:59:44 It's a really long episode. It is sorry guys, but we had to

1:59:47 get it all out. Yes.

1:59:48 All right, so thank you for joining us for another episode

1:59:51 next week. Our episode that we're bringing

1:59:54 is the Missing Campus Yeah, episodes, so the one in Gatta.

1:59:58 Back here in Melbourne or in Victoria, yes.

2:00:01 Very interesting case. I know my dad's been really

2:00:05 wanting us to cover this case. It's super interesting.

2:00:07 So, Dad, well, this one can be for you.

2:00:10 Yeah, Yep. So that's what we're covering

2:00:12 next week. Thank you again for joining us.

2:00:14 We hope you have a wonderful week and we'll catch you again

2:00:16 on the flip side. Absolutely.

2:00:17 Come and join us over at Patreon and pick up some extra episodes

2:00:20 over there if you like, so stay curious.

2:00:22 Crime besties. Bye.