Episode 63 - The Pettingill Family Part 2: The Walsh Street Murders

0:15 Welcome back to Crime Besties. Here we are for another episode.

0:18 We're continuing on from our story that we brought you last

0:21 week. So if you haven't listened to

0:22 last week's episode, Jordan back there and have a bit of a

0:26 listen. But before we get into today's

0:30 full episode, now we are recording this on the same day

0:34 as we recorded last week's episode.

0:36 So there's not a huge amount of like, how have you been?

0:39 Because I already know is there a collective?

0:42 Sigh, relief from some people going oh fuck.

0:43 That thank God. The case.

0:44 Quicker I don't have to listen. To have you met us shit.

0:48 Well I've got some stories so last so last weekend we had my

0:56 sister in law's 40th 2.0 so first time around she was unable

1:01 to have her phone. I'm going.

1:02 To call it 3.0 because I remember being at her 40th last

1:05 year. What?

1:06 Yeah. Yeah, we all went to what was

1:10 it? It wasn't brunch.

1:11 It was like, it was a bottomless.

1:14 It was an evening thing. We're at the yeah, we're at a.

1:18 It was really nice, like. I am drawing an absolute blank.

1:21 Yeah, we're at a restaurant altogether and it and when I

1:23 rocked up and I'm like, so hang on, this is for your 40th, but

1:26 you're not 40 yet. She's like, yeah, it's not, but

1:27 it is. So we just had to have an excuse

1:29 to like, hang out. I actually don't even remember

1:32 this. Yeah.

1:33 Oh God. Anyway, OK, so 3.0 there.

1:35 Yeah. But unfortunately, on the day

1:37 that they she was meant to have her first party, her whole

1:39 family was struck down with gastro.

1:42 Oh, that sucks. And it was like the night

1:45 before. So like, as in overnight the

1:48 night before. So she had to, like, wait until

1:50 the venue opened and, like, change everything.

1:52 And I was just really felt for it.

1:55 Yeah. But we ended up having it last

1:57 weekend and the party was great. We, everyone had a really great

2:01 time. It was a really good venue and

2:02 everything. But my children discovered the

2:05 beauty of Uber Eats. Oh, they've never discovered

2:08 this before. We don't really do it, no.

2:11 I mean, if we're gonna have take away, I'll go up and get it

2:13 because it's cheaper. Yeah.

2:14 And. Oh.

2:15 It is way cheaper to go and pick.

2:17 It up, but during COVID Peter and I had like obviously shoved

2:20 the kids into bed and ordinary rates like didn't everyone do?

2:22 That oh I over Uber eats it during that time definitely you.

2:26 Didn't I feel like everyone probably was in exactly the same

2:29 so. I'm not going.

2:31 We clearly weren't gonna go out like you weren't gonna couldn't

2:33 no. So yeah, just Uber.

2:34 I mean, actually got to a point where I was like, lunch, maybe

2:38 I'll eat a lunch. Yeah.

2:39 Because you're working from home.

2:41 Yeah. Yeah, anyway, so we, we'd been

2:44 at the party and it was a an afternoon soiree.

2:48 So by the time it was time to come home, I'm like, oh, it's

2:50 dinner time. I'm gonna order Uber Eats to be

2:53 at home at the same time as we get done.

2:54 That once before 10? Oh my.

2:57 God, the kids just thought all their Christmases had come at

2:59 once, so we ordered schnitz. Yeah, right.

3:02 Because, I mean, you know, when you've had a bit of a session in

3:05 the afternoon, a schnitz, it's an absolute treat, I have to

3:08 say. Yeah.

3:09 So the kids have ordered whatever they wanted on the app,

3:12 thought it was great and get home to a nice hot schnitz

3:16 waiting at the front door. We now Uber dropped us off.

3:20 Yeah. Oh, my God.

3:21 They're like, can we do this again?

3:23 I'm like, I'll wait and see. Because it literally Peter

3:25 actually had gone out. He'd gone somewhere else after

3:27 Claire's party. Yeah.

3:28 So it's just the three of us for three of us to have a burger and

3:32 we had two chips. That was it. 80 something

3:34 dollars. Yeah.

3:36 So it's, it's not an everyday, it's not even an every week

3:39 thing. No, now that they know about it.

3:42 Yeah, keep it away from them. I think I'm gonna have to.

3:45 I'm gonna have to put a like put a limit on that for sure.

3:47 Yeah, it's hot. It is easy to do that is for

3:51 sure. Yeah, it's it is very

3:52 convenient, so. Convenient.

3:54 Yeah, Not always hot. No, that's my.

3:57 There's certain things I won't order, like.

3:59 That oh, you've got to be selective.

4:00 Yeah, yeah. My mum and dad won't order Uber

4:03 Eats because they're worried that the driver or somebody's

4:06 gonna tamper with their food. In some way, I think we're past

4:09 that. Point we're thinking so past

4:10 that that's and also every every venue they seal or they.

4:13 Seal. It.

4:14 Shut. Yeah.

4:15 They put the little sticky things on there, yeah.

4:17 Yeah, yeah. Like nobody's nobody's eating

4:18 your chips for us. Don't worry, It's fine.

4:21 God, anyway, Speaking of food, this isn't this sort of follows

4:26 on, but it is today is my father in They are amazing, so young

4:36 so. Good.

4:38 But I we just got our Woolies delivery before and they didn't

4:40 have any kimchi. So Peter's had to go out to the

4:44 Asian grocery, get himself, get some Kimchi was like an

4:47 essential ingredient and they didn't have it and.

4:49 With him going down there, like to the Asian grocers, though,

4:51 he's not coming home just with kimchi.

4:53 Oh, no way. Yeah, there'll be there'll be an

4:55 assortment of noodles for. Sure, that's his thing, that

4:58 he'll add to it, Yeah. He'll get instant noodles too.

5:02 Yeah. So like ramen.

5:05 God only knows what else He'll come back.

5:06 With Yeah, but but you know what?

5:09 Let him absolutely that. That could be a future great

5:12 meal that he's gonna cook later. Yeah, he's he's very good with

5:16 his Asian cooking. I'll give him that.

5:18 Yeah. So, yeah, we're in for a bit of

5:20 a treat tonight. Nice.

5:22 Hang around. Oh, you're more than welcome to.

5:25 Can you imagine your kids? What are you having for dinner

5:27 tonight? Korean fried.

5:28 Korean fried chicken burger. I thought Mason couldn't even.

5:32 Oh, he'd be like out the. Door.

5:33 Yeah, he couldn't be. In that, that that's, that

5:34 smells like it might have smells, yeah.

5:39 They'd be like, yeah, no, I'm not going over there.

5:40 Yeah, no, that's. A hard note for me, I won't take

5:44 it personally mate. No, no.

5:46 Oh, it's funny, very, very funny.

5:48 I've got some more shout out. Oh, do you have any stories to

5:51 fill us in on for the week that oh, I'm putting you on the spot.

5:54 Oh yeah, my brain's done. Fair enough.

5:56 I'll go to the shout out then. Cool, cool.

5:59 So we've got some new Patreons. We've got Rue Lindsay, who I

6:04 think we mentioned in an episode a couple of weeks ago for liking

6:08 all of our all of our like Instagram posts and I think

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6:14 Catching up on everything. And she said that she normally

6:17 listens while she's in the car, so she hadn't had a chance to,

6:20 like, go and like all of our stuff.

6:21 Yeah. Anyway, she's now become a

6:23 Patreon, so thank you. We've got Angela, Shasa and

6:27 Clear our GAO. I hope that's how you say your

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7:05 Comments on Spotify actually like skyrocketed lately.

7:08 It's amazing and so loving all that we try and get there as

7:10 much as we can to to get responses back to you because I

7:13 mean, the the conversations that get started there are really

7:15 great. Yeah, please.

7:16 Keep them coming. Yeah, even if it's just to, you

7:18 know, hang shit on us. We we take those. 20 far out

7:21 we've got a good one this week are we we I woke up I had you

7:24 seen it the night. Before I'd seen it because I'm I

7:26 spent later, sorry, did see it come through at night and kind

7:29 of I actually did though, like literally what you sent me the

7:31 screenshot of it. I'd already screenshot it the

7:33 night before. I'm sending to that to Emma when

7:35 she wakes up. But you got to it before.

7:38 Screenshot and I said she was like well, good morning to us

7:41 some comment, but you know what, I'll take it because it's still

7:44 the algorithm likes any comment good, bad or indifferent doesn't

7:48 read. Them Oh no, I loved it.

7:51 I saw it come there and just like I literally laughed out

7:54 loud like me too. Oh, it was something.

7:57 Along the lines of are you 2 on drugs?

7:59 Yes. That's right, you 2 on drugs.

8:02 Oh God, I wish it'd actually. Be a lot more helpful.

8:06 Totally. I love it.

8:09 Love it, Love it. Yeah.

8:11 Yeah. All right.

8:11 Well, today we are sort of getting into last week we spoke

8:15 about the Pettingill family. Yeah.

8:16 And we were really mostly concentrating on Kath and

8:19 Dennis. Yeah.

8:20 So Kath being the matriarch, Dennis being her eldest son and

8:22 their crimes and sort of what came of that.

8:25 Yes. Today we are more focusing on

8:27 Victor Pierce and his family. So Victor, her sixth child, 6th

8:31 child, Yeah. And his wife, Wendy or not wife,

8:36 de facto Wendy Pierce. And the crimes that they, oh, my

8:41 God, they are. But most notably, I suppose, is

8:45 the Wall Street police shootings.

8:47 I think, you know, Victor Pierce's name is synonymous with

8:50 that. Yeah.

8:51 Case, even though he was acquitted of it.

8:53 But we'll get to all of that in a minute.

8:56 These people fascinate the shit out of me.

8:59 I just said. You like Every time I look for

9:01 something on them, more comes and it's more and it's juicier

9:06 or it's unbelievable it's. Unbelievable.

9:08 It is actually unbelievable actually.

9:10 You can't believe people live like this, say these things, do

9:14 these things. There was a quote.

9:15 From one one article that I read that says that for three decades

9:20 their lives have been beyond bizarre and almost beyond

9:24 description. And that I think really does sum

9:27 it up. It is incredible.

9:29 I. Agree.

9:30 It's so you couldn't write this shit.

9:33 No way. No, these are bigger than that.

9:37 No, it's oh God my my brain literally explodes every time I

9:40 read stuff about that. Yeah, I think we'll start off by

9:43 talking about the Wall Street shootings and then we can go

9:46 back and give you a bit more of a background on Victor and Wendy

9:49 as we sort of. Meet them across this story.

9:51 Yeah, right. So the Wall Street police

9:55 killings took place on the 12th of October in 1988, and it was a

10:01 situation where by two very junior police officers by the

10:06 names of Stephen Tynan and Damian Eyre were murdered in

10:10 cold blood. Yeah.

10:11 Cold blood, Absolutely. And with little opportunity for

10:16 defence, I actually believe Stephen Tynan was murdered by

10:19 his own service revolver. Yeah, it pulled out of his own

10:22 holster, so. You just can't even imagine.

10:26 It's unfathomable, you know, the thought of these crimes.

10:29 I I almost liken it to like what we're experiencing in Victoria

10:34 now. And this is something that I

10:35 think everybody would know about.

10:38 And I'm hoping by the time this episode comes out, there's been

10:40 some resolution to. I'm talking about the Desi

10:43 Freeman paw punker murders of those two alleged murders of

10:48 those two police officers. Yeah.

10:51 I I've seen, you know, you see the outpouring and the

10:55 devastation of that and it's incredible.

10:57 My in laws actually live very close to the police Academy in

11:03 Victoria. Yeah, in.

11:04 Willis Hill there. Sort of.

11:05 Willis Hill, yeah. And they said for both of the

11:08 funerals of those officers, they closed down the street, but

11:12 there were enough police officers doing a guard of honour

11:15 of the coffin as it was being driven out of the church, out of

11:20 the Chapel, the police Chapel up there at the Academy, that it

11:23 went for the entirety of that road.

11:25 Wow it. Was just an an insane number of

11:28 people who have thousands of police officers and they do.

11:31 They come out in droves for that stuff because, well, I mean,

11:35 it's their own. And you, every one of them feels

11:37 that whether they knew them personally or not, it's, I mean,

11:41 they do a job for the community in the hope that that's not the

11:45 outcome for any of them. That's not the the, you know,

11:47 even in the criminal world, it is a real no no to kill police.

11:52 Yeah. It's not actually something that

11:54 typically is what goes on that that whereas this was an

11:59 execution style of like killing, which this one that we're going

12:03 to talk about today and the one with and with Desi at the

12:06 moment, There's so many other outcomes that could have come

12:10 from that rather than killing people it and to kill people who

12:14 go about their job to protect people is just beyond atrocious.

12:19 It's. The, the lowest of the low,

12:21 Yeah. And, you know, our thoughts are

12:24 with all of the police officers serving in Victoria, serving

12:28 past and present, I suppose. And yeah, the the thoughts of

12:33 it. But I, I, I, it really reading

12:35 about this case this week really made me think, you know, there's

12:38 so many parallels in this situation.

12:41 And these two young constables were just trying to do their

12:45 job. Yeah.

12:45 They were called out to a car that was abandoned.

12:50 And I believe the boot was opened.

12:52 It was. On a bonnet, the bonnet was open

12:54 like and it was parked like in the middle of the road too.

12:57 So it really was it was blocking cars from going either direction

13:01 down the road. There was no way of sort of

13:03 passing it. The doors were left open of the

13:04 vehicle as well to again block further that cars couldn't go

13:08 around it. It was.

13:09 At night time and so all of the lights, the interior, because

13:12 all of the doors were open, the interior lights were on.

13:15 And the person who rang 000 to report that there was this car,

13:21 you know, in the middle of the road basically said, oh, there's

13:24 no one in it. No, because I and I could like

13:27 they could see into it because the lights were on and it was

13:29 dark outside and at that. Hour of the morning, like he'd

13:31 left his house at about 4:30 and he'd seen the car there and

13:35 actually went up on his way and left going.

13:37 That's odd. Like, you know, car's obviously

13:39 been, he just immediately was, oh, that car's obviously been

13:41 stolen and dumped and run out of fuel and they've ditched the car

13:45 like kind of thing. So he wasn't in any rush

13:48 necessarily to report it because it was that it was so early in

13:51 the morning that no one else much was on the road.

13:53 And it was clearly, you know, a dumped situation that there was

13:56 no one there. It wasn't like an immediate

13:58 threat. Kind of something's happening

14:00 currently right now, you know, So he drove off and drove to

14:04 work or the gym, I want to say the gym.

14:06 I feel like it was the gym. Yeah, he was going to the gym.

14:08 It wasn't till he got there that he went overing about that car

14:10 now that I'm here, like. And so he called the police and

14:14 reported it and said, yeah, I believe it's a stolen car

14:16 sitting there. You know, no one was, no one was

14:18 in mad rush to get there. But yeah, the two young

14:21 constables were got the call. And I say young, I mean, Damien

14:25 Ayer was 20 and Steven Tynan was just 22.

14:29 So Steven had been in the job a couple of years, whereas Damien

14:34 I believe was only about 6 months into his stint of being

14:37 on the job. So he'd obviously done the

14:38 Academy and then this was his, you know, first real posting of

14:42 being out on the on the road. So these were just your real

14:46 run-of-the-mill on the ground, uniformed cops going out to

14:50 check, a very routine kind of thing.

14:53 No element of this appeared to be a threat.

14:59 No. More than general policing.

15:02 Absolutely, yeah. There was no no perceived threat

15:05 by walking to this car. They and from the the way things

15:10 were found, all cops say literally these guys did to the

15:14 letter what they are supposed to do in a situation like this.

15:18 The way they left their car, the car was their car as they pulled

15:21 up how the car was left, their vehicle was left with the

15:24 lights. The way it was to ensure that

15:26 they had light on, what they were looking at that it was

15:29 protecting them. All those sorts of things was

15:31 all done as accurately as the procedures would be to go to

15:36 this kind of routine check. OK.

15:38 Yeah. So on the morning, obviously the

15:42 guys of both the two police officers approached the car and

15:47 I believe it was Stevens reached into the car.

15:50 He was the one inside the car, yes.

15:52 Yeah, he got into the car to check the vehicle whilst Damien

15:57 was on the outside of the car searching the exterior of the

16:00 car just to see taking down another look around, checking

16:03 out the vehicle, what was there and what had been left so that

16:07 it was a safe place. So while Stephen is inside the

16:11 vehicle and he's checking how the car had been hot wired

16:14 obviously, and that's all that was and he was checking the

16:16 vehicle for other things. Stephen has then come to sorry

16:21 Damien's then come to his door and as Damon has come to his

16:25 door, a shot fires and literally hits, hits Steven in the head

16:32 one shot. So Damon is left there.

16:35 He then turns immediately to see where this has come from and,

16:41 and he has, I think as he's turned, he's got a gun to his

16:46 head and another perpetrator has come from another angle and he's

16:50 grabbing at his weapon. So he that's where his gun is

16:53 taken from his holster and two shots are fired into him.

16:57 So 3 gunshots were used to eliminate the two police

17:02 officers. Another three shots were fired

17:05 in that battle between, I believe, between Damien and the

17:08 perpetrators, one hitting a house and the other two

17:11 ricocheting off into the street as well.

17:14 So six shots fired in total. Absolutely horrendous.

17:19 I can't even imagine being approached in that way.

17:21 And they fear that, particularly Damien, who had no idea that

17:25 where this has come out. You know, he had, he had battle

17:28 and like he witnessed the first one and then had to deal with

17:31 that, that immediate shock of what he's got to deal with.

17:34 Yeah. Whereas if, if there's anything

17:36 in this, Steven at least had no. Knowledge, although he didn't

17:40 die straight away, he was actually.

17:42 No, I just taken the shock. He was taken to the Alfred

17:45 hospital when he went into surgery I believe, and it was

17:50 found when he was in surgery that there was no way they were

17:53 able to save his life, although. And Damien died at the same

17:58 yeah. Wow.

18:00 So yeah, not, not good. Not at all.

18:03 And this immediately by the police force was condemned

18:07 entirely. But obviously they were all in a

18:10 bad way. This was an absolute execution

18:14 style killing, as in they had it had been a purposeful draw

18:17 police to this area for them to be killed, yes.

18:22 And, and the thing I guess is as well is they didn't know who was

18:25 going to attend, so they just wanted to kill.

18:28 They went. After a particular police

18:29 officer that had wronged them, it was right.

18:31 Just a police officer? Yeah.

18:33 Or two. Two.

18:34 Yeah, yeah, it's horrific. It's absolutely horrific.

18:38 Yeah. It was believed, I guess.

18:41 So when the police started investigating this and trying to

18:46 figure out exactly what happened, a lot of theories were

18:50 were bandied about. But it was widely believed that

18:55 it was a revenge for the police shooting of one of the

19:01 Pettingill's associates named Graham Jensen.

19:04 And he'd been murdered the day before, about 13 hours 13.

19:07 Hours before this. Happened.

19:09 Yeah, they'd. Been a a robbery and yeah, so

19:11 there there was. I'm sorry, Graham Jensen was

19:14 part of a crew with Victor Pierce and Trevor Pettingill.

19:20 And there was a number of other associates in a, in a group

19:23 called the Flemington crew that they had been labeled and who

19:27 were armed robbers they committed.

19:29 This is a a totally different time.

19:31 You know, in back in the, in the the 80s where armed robbery was

19:35 huge. It was.

19:36 It was. More than homicide.

19:38 So yes, I think it's worth having a think about the time as

19:42 well. Yeah.

19:42 So we're talking about a fully cash society.

19:46 You got paid wages in cash? Yeah, everything was in cash.

19:50 There wasn't a lot of credit card transactions or electronic

19:53 transfer of funds. That wasn't a thing, really.

19:56 So you can imagine how much cash was going around, how much cash

20:00 banks had in their vaults and whatever at the time.

20:03 Yeah. And this Flemington crew would

20:06 do all the all of these armed robberies.

20:07 They mostly targeted banks. And I'm not talking like shitty

20:12 little bank. They targeted big banks where

20:14 they knew there was big money to be had.

20:16 Yeah. They mostly stayed from the city

20:19 out east because there was another crew who dealt with the

20:22 banks in the West. You know who who robbed the

20:24 banks in the West. Yeah, but.

20:26 They would. In one bank robbery, they would

20:31 get like $200,000 in cash. Yeah, like an insane amount of

20:35 money. And this is in the 80s.

20:36 Like this is $200,000 in the 80s.

20:38 And then they'd use that cash. They'd get a bit low, they'd go

20:41 and do another armed robbery. I've heard as well that the

20:44 Flemington crew treated this like a job.

20:46 So they would go out during the day, you know, do the right

20:49 thing, go and scope out the next site and do their homework and

20:52 figure out when money came in, when money went out.

20:56 And they really were quite, I guess, professional.

20:58 Is that professional criminals They were.

21:01 Yeah. And it's just, you know, go out

21:05 and get a fucking legitimate job.

21:07 I mean, I guess you're not earning 200 grand a pop when

21:10 you're doing that, but for fuck's sake.

21:11 Oh, the. Risk of it though, I mean the

21:13 risk, yeah. I mean, and it was a very

21:16 different time in the sense of the cops and how they interacted

21:21 with these criminals too. And so there were, you know,

21:24 like there unfortunately, there were security guards who were

21:27 killed by the, the, the, the robbers, by the armed robbers at

21:31 the time. So there was definitely, they

21:33 were potentially, if they were caught, it wasn't just armed

21:35 robbery, but it was also murder and things like that that was

21:37 connected to this. But the police were kind of

21:40 doing a few dodgy things too. And they would line things up a

21:43 little bit and, you know, and shoot people if they had an

21:46 opportunity. Yeah.

21:48 So there was lots of, on both sides, dodgy things going on.

21:52 I've. Heard Narelle, our favorite

21:55 Narelle phrase talk about this and she was saying at the time

21:59 the robbers, which is what the armed robbery squad were called

22:02 like it was their nickname. The robbers were seen as being

22:06 like top tier detectives. They had a uniform they would

22:10 wear. So I mean not an actual uniform.

22:13 But they would. All wear white short sleeve

22:15 shirts, black slacks, and they actually did have an armed

22:18 robbery robbery squad tie that was black.

22:21 Yeah. And they would all wear the same

22:23 thing and they just, And apparently they were like jacked

22:26 though. They all thought that that shit

22:29 didn't. Stick a bit.

22:29 Yeah. And they were like really built,

22:32 you know, worked out. It was a a culture and and they

22:36 were seen as being the hardest of the detectives, even more so

22:40 than homicide detectives. Like they were top of the tree,

22:43 which is so. Interesting to now, I think like

22:44 I don't even know. I think there is no armed

22:47 robbery squad now. It's now dealt with through

22:50 other AIB or something. Yeah, Yeah.

22:52 Because there isn't the need for it.

22:54 Yeah, whereas this was it was so high need.

22:56 But what are you? Gonna rob from a bank these no.

22:58 This is easy bucks. That they've got in their drawer

23:00 like nobody uses cash. No, no, you need to cybercrime

23:04 it. That's what you need to do.

23:05 That's dealt with the cybercrime.

23:06 Yeah, that's right. It's not armed robbery.

23:08 Yeah, that's. Yeah, it's not even existing

23:11 anymore. Yeah.

23:12 But in this era, it was huge and it was a major problem here in

23:16 Melbourne. The armed robberies that were

23:18 were going on, as we said, there were murders involved with it

23:21 because it was dangerous. I mean, I don't know why you

23:24 wanna work at a bank, but. And it was, it was a good job to

23:26 work at a bank. And yeah, it was.

23:28 Kind of looked at as a yeah, prestigious place to work.

23:31 God, how? Scary because oh.

23:32 Terrifying. Yeah, I.

23:33 Mean they had absolutely terrifying you know their

23:35 security measures in place but these these guys worked around

23:38 all that stuff it. Wasn't at a time like this was

23:40 before the times where they had those like pop up, you know,

23:43 window things that you know, there was, there was not a lot

23:46 of deterrent aside from having these security guards at the,

23:50 you know, at the doors and stuff like that's basically all there

23:52 was. And other than that, they've got

23:53 the tellers who are so vulnerable.

23:55 Horrible. Sitting there.

23:56 Yeah. So, yeah, that gives a bit of

23:58 context as to the time and what was going on at the time.

24:01 I can't help it my brain. Started going into like point

24:03 break like, you know, Robert, sorry, my brain's just a little

24:07 bit fried the president you're doing.

24:13 You're doing great. You're doing great.

24:14 OK, So the police have started to put together a bit of a case

24:19 of what they think has happened. And as we said, they are really

24:24 looking at this Flemington crew and they were, they ended up

24:28 charging four men in relation to these execution murders of

24:34 Stephen and James. We should.

24:35 Say true. I mean, the, the, the

24:38 investigation into this went for 2 1/2 years.

24:41 It, it wasn't quick. It wasn't quick.

24:43 There was because. No.

24:44 None of the crim's talk, no. And on and at one stage they had

24:48 hundreds of police officers working on this.

24:50 And there was when this occurred, they, the police were

24:52 so gung ho like they were finding who, who did this and

24:55 gonna bring them to justice. They were, you know, your local

24:58 cops and that sort of stuff. Like I'm doing double shifts.

25:00 I'll, I'll take every shift possible.

25:01 They were wanted everyone on the ground.

25:03 They were gonna find who did this and bring them in.

25:07 It was a massive at at the time, it was the longest running and

25:11 biggest operation that they had happened in the Victorian

25:14 Police. Wow.

25:15 So they, they named their, their what do you call it?

25:19 Like their task force that they call them, they named it Thai

25:24 Air. I'll get it right.

25:26 Because they used the the two guys names and put them

25:29 together, obviously Tynan and Air.

25:31 So they named the Task force Thai Air, but it was and it was

25:34 huge. They were mad on getting these

25:37 guys, as you say, they were very quick to put together that they

25:43 thought it was linked to the Pettingills to the point where

25:46 they raided the Pettingills house the next day.

25:50 And so they were already on high alert.

25:53 The Pettingill family then that obviously they were, they were

25:57 being looked at. So it was, they weren't, they

26:00 weren't nervous though. Really.

26:02 Like, was it? No.

26:04 But even in those early days, they found the cops sort of like

26:07 basically went, well, there's a weak link here, potentially in

26:11 the youngest of the Pettingill crew, and that was the nephew of

26:15 the Pettingill children, Jason Ryan.

26:20 So at the time, he was only 19. Yeah.

26:24 He was, yeah. He I think just.

26:25 Just 19, just 19 so. And as we mentioned in our

26:29 previous episode, he was involved and witnessed to many

26:33 horrific things. Many he grew up.

26:35 In this world he did. What grow up in his world

26:36 exposed? To way more than any child

26:39 should be. Way more, but he didn't really

26:42 want to be involved in it. Nope.

26:44 And so when he was brought in by the cops, like, it took a fair

26:48 bit of going with him and they again, probably didn't do the

26:52 right thing also here. But Jason was keen to like not

26:56 be involved in this stuff, as I say.

26:58 But his story of what he was telling didn't really add up.

27:04 But it was he gave a little bit of information that the cops

27:07 were like, OK, we can use you, but you.

27:11 But the story kept changing, and why it kept changing, we don't

27:15 really know. And what was creating that,

27:18 whether it was the pressure of the fact that he knew he'd been

27:21 a lot of trouble for talking. As we said, I think that's.

27:24 Exactly what it is. So he.

27:25 Was he would be very concerned about the the implication of

27:30 what would occur from that. And there was a lot of talks.

27:32 So because he'd been in he, they knew the pedigal family knew

27:35 that he'd been pulled in by the cops and being spoken to.

27:39 That was known. And then he, this is the thing I

27:41 feel a bit sick for him in this, that the cops would pull him in

27:44 and then they'd send him back to them knowing that as a 19 year

27:48 old, literally he could turn up dead the next day.

27:52 There is no question. And I know that Jason would know

27:54 that too. He would have known that that

27:57 was highly likely in his situation.

27:59 His only tie here of not being killed, Is that his blood?

28:06 Yep. And it but how much is that

28:08 going to get you? How far is that going to get you

28:10 if you're a? Snitch.

28:10 I don't think it'd get you anywhere.

28:11 This is. It and so he knew that too.

28:14 That would have been bloody scary.

28:16 So at this point in time, his mum, who is Vicky, she was

28:23 protective of her son but very much sat on the fence and she

28:28 played it well. I think of defending her

28:31 siblings but also protecting her son and being on both sides.

28:37 So that would have been really tricky for her to manage as well

28:41 because then she's also going to, if she picks her son, she

28:45 could be end up dead too. Like, oh, absolutely awful.

28:50 So the cops are keep they keep playing on him at this point.

28:54 They end up taking him off for a four day stint for a chat.

28:58 I don't think that's legal. I don't think, I don't know.

29:01 Not these days. I mean, he really don't know I

29:03 guess. So like he didn't say no.

29:06 So I guess that's where maybe they got.

29:07 Around surely there's like an amount I actually don't know

29:10 because he's not under. Arrest.

29:11 At that point he wasn't under, so he was.

29:13 Free to go at any time? I guess so, but maybe he didn't

29:15 know that. I I think so.

29:17 He didn't have a lawyer. No, that's for.

29:19 Sure, but then don't you think it's curious that the family

29:22 didn't insist on him having their lawyer because at least

29:27 then they could have manipulated him from the inside there, Yeah.

29:30 But. He didn't.

29:31 He didn't have any legal representation, no.

29:33 But I guess in their world, if you're going to talk, talk and

29:36 we'll just, we'll deal with it. Yeah.

29:39 And so it wasn't about having a lawyer there to stop him.

29:41 I don't know. But from all accounts, he went

29:45 off on this four day trip with the cops and he came back a bit

29:52 of a broken man with the bruises to show.

29:56 So I don't think he was treated real well.

29:58 It wasn't a camping trip off with with your mates, that's for

30:01 damn sure. So again, he's the cops were

30:05 sort of like his story is good enough for us, but it's not

30:10 really. There, Yeah.

30:11 We can't really go to a judge with it, no.

30:14 Although it was good enough that they had, they decided to charge

30:17 Jason. Yeah.

30:19 So they charged Jason with the murders of the two constables,

30:25 but they weren't done with. They weren't just going to get.

30:27 They knew there was more than one person involved.

30:29 So as much as they're charging him with it, he's still out

30:32 because they still need to collect more information.

30:35 Yeah. So this is.

30:36 Where it just continues on for years.

30:38 They're gathering more and more information.

30:41 It was 2 and 2 1/2 years. Was it by the time they they

30:45 actually charged the men, the rest of the men.

30:49 So, yeah, they charged Victor Pierce, Trevor Pettingill, Peter

30:54 McAvoy and Anthony Farrell. So they were the members of this

30:59 Flemington crew, I guess. Yeah.

31:01 And what what they ended up, it's it's this is where all of

31:09 this bizarre shit gets in. So let's just get into a little

31:12 bit of a background about Victor Pierce and Wendy, and then we

31:16 can go from there. Do you reckon?

31:18 Yeah, sure. So Victor Pierce was born on the

31:22 11th of November in 1958, and he was Kath's sixth son.

31:30 And he actually ended up having five children of his own, four

31:34 of whom to four to Wendy. Yeah, 4 to Wendy.

31:37 And so that was Christopher Pierce, Victor Pierce Junior,

31:41 Katie Pierce, Matthew Pierce, and then Vinnie Pierce, who was

31:44 actually named after a judge, but we'll talk about that later.

31:47 Yeah. The judge who acquitted him,

31:51 Yeah. Oh, sorry.

31:54 Yeah, what the fuck? Yeah, and.

31:56 I believe Vinnie was actually born while Wendy was in prison.

32:02 Yeah. I'll, I think that might be the

32:04 pregnancy that comes up. OK.

32:06 All right, we'll get to that in a SEC.

32:08 Yeah. So as we said, Victor's the 6th

32:10 child of Kath Pettingill, So we already know what kind of family

32:14 he's been born into with his de facto partner Wendy.

32:19 So she took on his name by deed, Paul I believe.

32:22 Yeah, so they would. Never actually marry, which is.

32:24 The same as like Pettingill in terms of the yeah, Kath and I

32:29 don't. Even know that she legally took

32:31 on his name, but everyone knows her as Kath.

32:32 I don't. Know, I don't know.

32:36 He was convicted for drug trafficking and served a six

32:40 year sentence during the 90s for that.

32:44 So he, you know, he was a bit of a seasoned crim in and of

32:47 himself, but he came out from that conviction and he actually

32:54 worked as a bodyguard for Frank Benvenuto.

32:58 He was a, oh, a kingpin in in the gangland sort of scene.

33:05 Yeah. So we'll kind of leave Victor

33:09 there or do you have anything else you want to discuss with?

33:11 Victor, I think that's a. Lot more will come up as we go

33:14 on. But anyway, he's married de

33:16 facto with Wendy. She, at the time of them

33:24 arresting those they thought responsible for the Wall Street

33:30 shootings, was working with the police as.

33:34 Well, she was arrested for a pretty awful crime.

33:40 Yes, and then they. Use that to their advantage,

33:43 yes. Yeah.

33:44 So are you talking about which, which crime are you talking

33:49 about for that? Which one?

33:51 Because she was. She's done some stuff.

33:53 She's done some. Really nasty shit.

33:55 So which one was she arrested for for that?

33:59 I want to say it was a stabbing. OK.

34:02 All right. Yeah, no, OK.

34:03 Yes. Yeah, she was.

34:05 In. She was in, Yeah.

34:08 She was in a lot of trouble. She was going to go down for it.

34:10 Yeah. And they said to her, we'll give

34:13 you immunity for that as long as you talk to us about what went

34:19 on with the Wall Street killings.

34:21 Yeah. So at this time, Victor was such

34:25 a prominent armed robber that they never really stayed at

34:30 home. They had a home in Rowville in

34:32 the outer in the eastern suburbs of Melbourne, and they very

34:36 rarely stayed there because they were so involved in all of this

34:40 shit. And obviously they had people

34:43 wanting to come after them. So they actually used to take

34:46 their five fucking kids and stay in hotels all around.

34:51 They'd move, they'd go and whatever.

34:54 So they were actually staying this at this particular time at

34:57 a hotel in Tullamarine near the airport in Melbourne.

35:01 And Wendy, when she was first questioned, said that Victor was

35:06 there with them all night on the night of these shootings.

35:10 She's then been done for this. I think it was the stabbing.

35:15 I think you're right. And she is then obviously going

35:19 down the path of probably being in prison she was.

35:22 Looking at a pretty serious time, yeah.

35:24 And the police have come up with this deal because all they

35:28 wanted to do was solve these police shootings.

35:30 Yeah. At the time when I was reading

35:32 about this too, I'm like going that poor, I know person who

35:36 went through that 'cause I believe it was horrific that

35:39 they ended up that that's just like, it's so non, yeah, it's

35:44 just ignored in all of these of like even what that crime was

35:47 and all those sorts of things. Because because they were like

35:50 wanted to get these Wall Street killings, which I get you want

35:53 to get them, but at the sacrifice of someone else

35:56 getting their person for who has attacked them, which is, I

35:59 think, wrong. Yeah, I agree.

36:01 Yeah, I agree. But I guess they they really

36:05 were staunch about getting this crime solved.

36:08 So they offered her a deal, as you said, and she provided them

36:13 with a 30 page statement. She sang.

36:17 Oh. Didn't she about everything,

36:19 Yeah. And it's all an interview, like

36:21 all on tape. Yeah, and.

36:22 She even said, like, you know, there were days where we had

36:24 $200,000 in our house in cash and we did this and we did that.

36:27 And he's, I've, I saw him soaring off shotguns in the back

36:31 shed and I've seen him with guns.

36:34 I've seen him with these notorious criminals.

36:38 He definitely left the hotel in Tullamarine that night and

36:43 didn't come back until, you know, the very, you know, until

36:46 the early hours of the following day.

36:48 So 30 pages of just like spewing out everything prime.

36:53 Eyewitness statement. Stuff like that clinches their

36:56 entire like case against him, so the.

37:00 Prosecution are like fucking. 8, she named all the other, all the

37:04 other perpetrators because they're actually six that were

37:07 named originally. Yeah.

37:08 The other two that we haven't spoken of yet were Gary Abdullah

37:12 and Jed Horton. Yeah.

37:13 Now, well, we can get to them and why they weren't in the

37:16 eventual 4 that were put on trial.

37:19 Yeah. But yeah, so she named all of

37:21 them. And so it put them all into the

37:23 mix of being able to be looked at of exactly who is involved in

37:26 this and what their roles were. Yeah.

37:29 So she, she's saying like a Canary, as you say, they had

37:33 their prime witness. So along with her and then what

37:36 they had from Jason, they were looking at a pretty good, solid,

37:40 solid case. They put Wendy in protective

37:45 custody. She spent 18 months in

37:48 protective custody in total building up to the trial because

37:52 they knew that Wendy was she would be killed immediately for

37:56 speaking and what she had said that the cops were.

38:00 They were hesitant about putting Jason into protective custody

38:03 because it was his story kept changing and things like that

38:06 and he wasn't as reliable and they were they were dangling

38:08 that with him of like I think they really wanted him shit

38:10 scared because they wanted more out of him.

38:12 That's right, that they didn't give him protective custody as

38:15 easily as they did Wendy because she came forward all in were,

38:20 oddly enough, I don't. Know, yeah.

38:22 Yeah, So what? Actually happened when they went

38:25 to trial Meg. Well, even just before we will

38:28 get to trial, so the other two men who we just spoke about in

38:34 all of this, obviously there's still, this is over 2 1/2 years

38:37 of, you know, investigating this.

38:39 There were, they were still, you know, committing other crimes

38:43 and things. Oh, yeah.

38:44 So in that Gary Abdullah was killed in during another like

38:51 incident. Another.

38:52 Yeah. So he was in an armed robbery

38:54 and he was shot in that. And then Jed Holton was also

38:58 killed by police. So these were both killed by

39:01 police in the meantime, in this time frame.

39:04 Yeah, Jed Horton, unfortunately, he, I believe he was, he was at

39:09 his holiday park at an Ascot and in Bendigo and he was killed by

39:15 police there. They said that he had a gun and

39:19 so they shot at him, but other police officers since have

39:23 actually come forward and said that the gun was planted.

39:27 Afterwards, yes. So he was.

39:28 I think they said he had a gun in his car or something and then

39:32 the gun was planted afterwards. Afterwards which, yeah.

39:35 Police officers have come forward since and said that, but

39:38 so all these extra killings of, you know, the Flemington crew in

39:43 the meantime also was, I mean, setting off Victor something

39:46 shocking that he was losing all these mates.

39:47 I'm just going to throw in here. So the guy that originally died

39:51 died Graham Jensen, who they sort of said that these two cops

39:54 being killed was a revenge act of that.

39:56 So according to the underworld, there had been this kind of

40:01 discussion of like all these criminals being shot by police

40:04 that it was this. There was sort of the talk along

40:07 along the lines of the next time one of our guys gets shot by

40:11 them, we kill 2 of theirs. Right.

40:14 So that was where this sort of all came from of like when when

40:18 Graham Jensen was shot, Victor was like, that's it, I'm coming.

40:21 Good on our our decision to do that.

40:24 We're killing two of the cops. We're out for one of ours.

40:27 That this has to end this back and forth.

40:29 We'll do it by killing two of theirs.

40:31 So but Graham Jensen, Victor's best mate, he was having an

40:38 affair with Wendy. I know, so you know, but how

40:42 much did he know? That though he would have killed

40:45 him himself, this is. It I just kind of go this has

40:47 all come about. You're like defending your best

40:49 mate. He was having an affair with

40:51 you, not wife, pet de facto. Might as well.

40:54 Might as well be like, yeah, just these people.

40:58 I. Know, I know.

41:00 Yep, none of these details. It's just it's yeah, you can't

41:04 write this stuff. You can't write this stuff.

41:07 No, right? So we've now got to the point

41:09 where we've got 4 remaining alive.

41:13 Yep. Suspects who were charged.

41:15 Oh. Sorry, we should say also.

41:17 So Jason, obviously he was originally charged as well with

41:20 this. Oh yes.

41:21 So his story eventually came to he eventually admitted to that

41:26 he had stolen the car originally and and that was used in luring

41:32 them in. He whether or not this is true

41:36 either the cops are kind of a bit dunno.

41:39 He also admitted to being at the shooting originally, but then

41:43 they proved he wasn't there. So there was a number of things

41:47 that fell apart in terms of if they were going to put him on

41:49 trial that they ended up dropping the charges on him as

41:52 long as he remained a witness for the the remaining four that

41:55 they were putting on trial. So his story he'd.

41:58 Overheard them planning it, whatever, there was enough.

42:02 In what he was bringing that what there were facts that they

42:06 could use, Yeah, but it wasn't overly reliable because he had

42:10 changed his story so much. So the only other physical

42:13 evidence they had to link this was eventually was the shotgun

42:18 that was found. And it was found at a local golf

42:21 course by a gardener in a garden bed at the golf course.

42:24 And that particular shotgun, they'd already worked this out

42:27 without before finding the shotgun, which they eventually

42:30 had the shotgun as well, that the shells matched shells that

42:34 had been used in a armed robbery which had been committed by the

42:40 Flemington crew. They had it on CCTV that they

42:43 could pinpoint various people. So that's where they knew that

42:47 there was this link between those shells and the Flemington

42:50 crew robbery and then when they found the shotgun as well and

42:55 that gave backed all that. Yeah.

42:56 So that was really the only physical evidence they had.

43:00 Plus then these two eyewitnesses being Jason and Wendy when they

43:02 went to trial being. The staff, which they were

43:06 really pinning all of their hopes on her.

43:08 Yeah. So they all, all of those

43:10 charged pled not guilty. And so it went to trial.

43:14 Yeah. And when it came time for Wendy,

43:19 Wendy for Wendy's testimony, Yeah, she completely reneged.

43:25 Completely refused, she. Refused to answer any of the

43:28 questions and. Because she is, she was in a

43:32 relationship with Victor in a de facto, facto way in that she's

43:37 treated as, oh, she's married to him in the same way.

43:40 So she's actually not like, can't be made to testify against

43:44 him. It was completely had to be at

43:46 her. She couldn't.

43:48 Yeah, yeah. Voluntary.

43:49 It had to be voluntary. So there Can you imagine being

43:54 the prosecutor and being and thinking, Oh my God, she's going

43:57 to answer this to this question this like they prepped her.

44:00 Yep, they knew what they thought she was going to say.

44:03 She it's. In recordings, yeah, they have

44:05 it. What she said.

44:06 Yep. And now?

44:08 But now she's written they've. Got it in recordings they've

44:10 Yep, it's there but. They need her at trial to

44:13 confirm it and say underoath. Underoath.

44:16 Yep, and she refused to do it. So she was done for perjury and

44:22 she spent nine months in jail for it.

44:25 But that lost them the case the. All four were acquitted.

44:30 Now I wonder, because the lawyer for them at the time, our mates

44:36 Andrew Fraser, what role did he play in that?

44:42 Do you reckon that there's a possibility?

44:43 Is there a world where that was planned from the get go?

44:47 Well. This, I've heard this theory

44:49 that they did this, so that exactly what we just said, the

44:55 police and the prosecution thought, oh, we've got this in

44:57 the bag. So there was no other prep.

45:00 They really relied on Wendy's testimony as their golden

45:05 bullet. They didn't.

45:06 Pressure. Jason Moore.

45:08 They didn't get more out of Jason.

45:09 He didn't. Find I don't know I don't know

45:11 what other evidence they could have found but they really

45:13 pinned all their hopes on this case so that.

45:16 Yeah, the inference with with this theory is that they did

45:20 this on purpose so that Kath could then get on the stand and

45:23 not say a word. Yeah.

45:25 And that would mean that the jury had to quit because there

45:27 was no one there was. He said she said you know no, I

45:31 wasn't there I was at home Oh OK.

45:32 Well, there's no want to cooperate either way, so they,

45:35 the jury, had no choice but to quit, and the four men walked

45:41 free. Now.

45:42 Now, I think it's funny that Wendy ended up in prison after

45:46 that for perjury, but after these four men have more than

45:50 likely killed these two innocent police officers and Wendy's the

45:55 one who goes to prison for nine months for perjury?

45:57 Fuck off, I know. So and the others will walk

45:59 free. I mean, they already had Victor

46:02 in jail for something else at the time.

46:04 So that was the crime I was talking about at the start.

46:06 Yes, that was, I think that was an armed robbery, yeah.

46:11 Yeah, yeah. Because there was another point

46:14 where Pierce was on trial for, so he's on, he was in jail and

46:19 he was charged with drug trafficking at the time, right?

46:22 And it was suggested by his older brother Dennis that, well,

46:26 couldn't you just shoot your heavily pregnant partner Wendy

46:29 in the foot so that you, out of compassionate grounds, you get

46:32 grounded Bail but. The other thing is apparently

46:35 Wendy was like, well, if I wasn't pregnant, I'd let, I'd

46:37 let Dennis do it because he'd know where to shoot, so it

46:39 wouldn't hurt that much. So.

46:42 Yeah, she fully like thought, yeah, sure, I can't go with

46:45 that. But then when they decided to

46:47 not do that instead in the in during the trial, she stood

46:51 there wet her pants, told the court she's gone into A to

46:56 labour. She hadn't had waters had not

46:58 broken. She literally purposely wet

47:00 urine her pants. It was urine.

47:01 Oh. God, these people so.

47:04 That the trial had to be, you know, he could go and go out and

47:08 get it on bail so that he could be with his wife who was giving

47:11 birth. She wasn't, she didn't go into

47:13 labour. Nope.

47:15 I mean, these people are fucking.

47:17 Awful people, they're fucked. There was.

47:24 There's a quote here about Wendy and the kind of person she was

47:27 that I just think is, yeah, Chef's kids is.

47:31 This the Darren Hinch no. Not even there yet.

47:34 I can't wait for this. So this is just.

47:36 This just sums her up and that she is a walking contradiction.

47:41 She's cunning and naive, vicious and vulnerable, exploited and

47:44 and an exploiter. She has inflicted more pain and

47:48 suffered more tragedy than anyone should in a lifetime.

47:53 Yeah, yeah, I think that's so true.

47:54 It is her. Her life is equally.

47:58 She's as much a victim as she is a perpetrator.

48:00 That is so true like. She's someone who she fully, and

48:04 when you see interviews of her and everything, you see someone

48:07 who has been through hell, yeah. And you're like, she knows she's

48:11 full fully cognizant of the fact that her life is fucked, yeah,

48:17 but is not willing to change any of it.

48:20 Like she is just that walking contradiction.

48:23 Yeah, so. Yeah, the youngest son was born

48:26 while she was serving time in prison for that perjury charge.

48:30 Yeah. And they named him after Justice

48:33 Frank Vincent, who was the Wall Street trial judge named in

48:36 Vinnie. That's inside.

48:38 Isn't that gross? Yeah, as that.

48:40 Judge, wouldn't you be like, no, please don't, No, no thanks.

48:43 Don't want. I don't.

48:44 I don't want anything. Yeah.

48:47 Oh, that's just crazy. So I mean, the fact of the

48:51 matter is that even later in, it was 2005, Wendy came out

48:57 publicly and is on the record as saying, yeah, they all those

49:03 four did it. I know they didn't.

49:05 What I said in the interviews is true.

49:08 My lie was not sitting on the stand.

49:11 They they should never have been acquitted.

49:14 That then brought about an inquest which she then reneged

49:20 on that and said I'm not taking part in an inquest although.

49:24 You can be she. She was.

49:27 Summoned. Yeah.

49:27 She was summoned on that. Yeah, yeah.

49:32 She said that. So there've been a lot of

49:34 interviews with Wendy, actually, she's she's not quiet.

49:37 Oh no. She's not quiet in one.

49:40 Of the interviews where they were talking about, the reporter

49:43 asked her about Victor and after he'd come out of prison for

49:48 those. Was it the drug?

49:50 Might have been the drug trafficking charges, actually,

49:53 she said. He is not a monster.

49:55 When he gets out, we just want to be left alone.

49:57 He's a family man with family values.

50:00 He's one of the best fathers you could see.

50:02 No one has anything to fear from us.

50:06 Oh, sure, sure, sure. OK.

50:11 Well, the family are just absolutely gross.

50:13 OK, so. And this goes beyond just Victor

50:18 then. Yeah, her daughter, their

50:20 daughter, Katie. Oh.

50:22 My God, yes. So Katie and her mum obviously

50:28 cut from the same cloth. This is horrific.

50:32 Oh. This is horrible.

50:34 So there's so many reasons, so many.

50:35 Reasons. Something I should say about

50:37 Katie too. So she this this is a, this

50:39 occurred in 2009. However, prior to this, because

50:42 in 2009 she was 24, her mum and Katie decided to put a bit of a

50:50 they wanted to assault a particular gentleman.

50:53 So they asked a man by the name of Tom Yang to assault a man by

51:02 the name of Robert Sales. Now, Robert Sales was just the

51:09 father of a girl who was dating Katie's ex.

51:14 Yep, right, that's so he had no connection.

51:17 No connection. At all?

51:19 No. So for 200 bucks I was.

51:22 Going to say it was like $200. They paid this Yang to Tom.

51:26 Yang, they paid him, Tom Yang to assault him.

51:29 That were the words they used, you know, to go and do this.

51:32 So Tom Yang went down to the Clair Castle Hotel in in Port

51:36 Melbourne and he, he used a meat cleaver to seriously, seriously

51:46 injure this person. He, he caused a deep long gash

51:50 across his face, 3 fact fractures to his jaw, broken

51:55 teeth and facial nerve damage. Now Robert Sales was not the

52:02 person who ended up with those injuries.

52:05 He was at the Clair Castle Hotel that night.

52:08 He got up and went and had a cigarette whilst a poor bloke by

52:12 the name of Mark Laos was hacked across the face with a meat

52:17 cleaver and had no knowledge of any of these people.

52:23 It was complete mistaken identity.

52:26 He had serious injuries that lifelong, lifelong, Yeah,

52:30 lifelong injuries. The judge in the case stated

52:34 that it was the worst example of intentionally causing serious

52:38 injury he had ever seen. I mean, that's a huge you don't

52:42 take a fucking. Meat cleaver to someone's face.

52:45 Like even who takes a meat? Cleaver to the hotel.

52:49 The fuck? But so Tom Yang pleaded guilty

52:52 to that. Like so he he got his charges,

52:56 but Katie and Wendy, they both plead not guilty, so charged.

53:00 With attempted murder, I think, yeah.

53:02 Attempted murder and intentionally causing serious

53:05 injury. So they were just as culpable as

53:07 the person who inflicted it. Yeah, was what the the court was

53:10 saying. But they both plead not guilty

53:12 to that. Katie was bailed at that point,

53:17 whereas Wendy was not. So Wendy was put in jail at the

53:20 time. Unfortunately for Katie though,

53:22 she on bail then went no deed and passed and died and died on

53:27 15th of December in 2009. They did allow Wendy out for a

53:32 funeral though. But yeah, that's all.

53:35 But she spent a fair bit of time in jail for that.

53:37 It was years. Yeah.

53:38 She got years for that. Yeah.

53:42 They just. It's unbelievable.

53:46 Like, hold on, you're instead of I don't know, I could almost

53:50 understand them going after the ex-boyfriend, maybe, but the ex

53:54 boyfriend's new partner's dad. Yeah, like that's just part.

53:58 Of that and then to then get a mistaken identity on that as

54:01 well. What are you hoping to achieve

54:04 like that just makes you look and it's.

54:07 Your ex-boyfriend? Like, yeah, move on.

54:08 Not your current boyfriend. Yeah, no, get over it.

54:10 Move on. He's done.

54:12 He's Yeah, I can. Understand why he's done.

54:14 Yeah. Yeah.

54:15 Oh. Yeah, stay the fuck away.

54:18 Stay the fuck away, yeah? And I just find that

54:22 interesting. That's the the daughter more so

54:25 than you hear about even his sons being involved in these

54:28 crimes. I just that's next level, but

54:31 there's not. A lot of information out there

54:33 about their sons, no? No, Katie.

54:36 'S really the only one who had notoriety.

54:38 Yeah, respect. Absolutely.

54:40 I mean, that's not the only incident where she spent time in

54:43 general or anything either. So she was known to be an issue,

54:47 yeah. I think she and Wendy had

54:49 actually served some time at the same time in same for.

54:52 Us, the two of them were really bad together.

54:54 Yeah, yeah. I mean, she was 24 when she

54:56 died. I mean, how much could you get

54:58 into before then? I just.

54:59 Oh. God.

55:00 Crazy. Yeah, yeah, yes.

55:04 But Victor Pierce did come to an end too though, so we can talk

55:10 about his eventual death, which was interesting his.

55:15 His death was, I guess, yeah. Interesting.

55:17 So he was actually, he'd been having a coffee with Wendy and

55:26 Katie, I think. So this is before Katie's death.

55:29 Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

55:30 And he'd been having a coffee with them in Bay St.

55:33 Port Melbourne. They'd walked home.

55:35 So by this stage, they'd moved from their house in Rowville to

55:38 Port Melbourne. Now, this is back in a time.

55:41 It's not what Port Melbourne is today.

55:42 Well, 2. 1002 because I mean, I spent a fair bit of time around

55:45 Port Melbourne not long after this, OK, like kind of time like

55:48 I think. It changed not long after this.

55:50 I think this is a real sort of flip around.

55:52 But I mean, they still had, you still had the Dockers Union true

55:55 at the time. And yeah, so there was still,

55:58 you know, a fair bit of shady shit possibly going down in that

56:02 area at the time. Anyway, the Painters and Dockers

56:05 Union was it. That's right.

56:06 And anyway, the So Wendy and Katie have gone to walk back to

56:12 their head to their apartment house, wherever it was they were

56:15 living in Port Melbourne, and for some reason Victor stayed

56:19 behind. The I guess the theory is that

56:23 he stayed behind because he was there to collect money, like

56:26 from some kind of drug deal or I, I, we don't really know the

56:30 exact circumstances, but he was essentially executed literally

56:35 minutes after Wendy and Katie left him and he was shot down by

56:41 two men in a car in a cream coloured Holden Commodore, which

56:45 is the same, interestingly enough, the same car that they'd

56:48 stolen and used to lure the two police officers the same.

56:52 Make and model same make and. Model, not the same car, sorry.

56:55 The same make and model and colour of the car to lure the

56:58 police officers. So that's a little curious

57:00 thing, isn't it? And he was, yeah, shot dead in

57:05 the street in Bay St., Port Melbourne.

57:07 Enough, Katie was taught to drive in that car.

57:10 Interesting then I. Thought dad was killed in yeah.

57:13 So that happened in 1990. No that.

57:16 Was 2002 Oh? 2002 yes, sorry, sorry. 2002 Oh

57:21 good, but. So the but the person who did

57:24 that, who shot Victor, was someone else who's very well

57:29 known in the underworld. Benji Veneman.

57:32 Yeah, or Andrew Benji Veneman, I should say him, his full name.

57:35 He was, yeah, very much known as just Benji.

57:38 He was pretty much Carl Williams as go to, right?

57:42 Hand man, Yeah. I mean, it's pretty much what he

57:44 did was shoot, kill people they needed to get rid of.

57:47 But he, he was quoted as saying, Benji at the time he said that

57:53 he if I didn't, if I don't get Victor, he'll just get me first.

57:56 Yeah. So it was a, you know, kill,

57:59 kill Victor or get killed like kind of situation.

58:03 There was a driver that they did later on, I believe also

58:08 charged, but I don't think he ended up going down for it

58:10 though. But yeah, it was the person who

58:12 shot the IT was Benji who I I think it was not long after that

58:17 that he was then also killed. Yeah, it.

58:19 Was it was it was pretty soon after, soon after, That's all I

58:22 think this is. This is a real time in Melbourne

58:24 as well, where there was a massive shift in that gangland

58:29 power. Oh, yeah.

58:30 So we've gone from having the petting gills they were kind of

58:33 petering out to not being a lot. They'd killed themselves.

58:36 They'd been killed. They'd been in prison.

58:39 Yeah. And this is now where the

58:40 Carlton crew kind of started to step in.

58:43 The Carlton crew, I'm talking the likes of the Morans.

58:47 The Morans, Carl Williams. Exactly.

58:49 All of those guys are the ones who, you know, the lug on

58:52 street. Yeah.

58:53 Interestingly, Jason Moran was at Victor's funeral.

58:57 Yeah, yeah. So they they knew each other.

59:00 They were all like friends. Acquaintances.

59:04 Yeah, maybe that's a better way of putting nothing.

59:06 Else just really quickly, I just thought this was a really

59:09 interesting little tidbit about Victor Pierce.

59:12 So when he came out of prison for, I think it was the, the

59:18 stabbing, I think he was at he, he went to, so he was living in

59:27 housing Commission at, at North Melbourne at the time.

59:29 Because he'd come out of prison with nothing.

59:32 Wendy, I don't know, at that time they hadn't re, I don't

59:36 know, reacquainted or whatever. And he had his daughter with

59:38 him, right. So he had Katie with him.

59:41 And so she would have been a young teenager at the time, I

59:44 think. And he went to the IGA that, oh,

59:51 no, actually, sorry. It was an Asian grocer that was

59:53 underneath the flats where he was living at the time.

59:56 Yeah, right. And he stole a jar of coffee and

59:59 he's put it in his coat. And the owner of the grocer

1:00:05 figured out what he'd done. And he and many of his mates,

1:00:08 some of whom lived in the building, came and they

1:00:11 basically sat on. Him, sat on him until sat on

1:00:16 Victor until the police came. And it just so happened that the

1:00:22 one of the police officers who attended that particular call by

1:00:25 pure chance was none other than Narelle Fraser.

1:00:29 And she said she walked in and she was like, oh, fuck.

1:00:33 Like, we're being set up here. Yeah.

1:00:36 You know we've been. Called to somebody stealing a

1:00:39 jar of coffee and it's fucking a victor what the fuck and so

1:00:45 anyway it as it transpired it it legit legitimately was just him

1:00:50 yeah stealing a literally dollar fifty jar of coffee and I.

1:00:54 Mean the cops would be like on your way.

1:00:57 We don't want to get him for that.

1:00:59 They want to get him for the big stuff.

1:01:00 They. Charged him, arrested him, and

1:01:02 he was found guilty of that theft, theft for that.

1:01:06 But the other police officer who was in attendance with Narelle

1:01:10 was a man by the name of of Lachlan McCulloch.

1:01:14 Hmm. So he was actually an undercover

1:01:17 police officer who infiltrated the Pettingill Pierce clan?

1:01:22 Hmm. He was the operation was called,

1:01:24 was codenamed Earthquake and he bought amphetamines, cannabis,

1:01:28 heroin worth about $130,000 from the Pettingills over the years.

1:01:33 Yeah, was gathering information. He was deep in, I think.

1:01:36 Oh. Absolutely, yeah.

1:01:38 As a result, 15 people were, as a result of this task force, 15

1:01:42 people were arrested. Yeah.

1:01:43 I'm not sure what actually came of those arrests and how many

1:01:46 were actually prosecuted and went to prison.

1:01:48 But Kath and Trevor Pettingill were both arrested as part of

1:01:52 that. Yeah, one of the quotes that he

1:01:54 said was they were not very smart people.

1:01:57 Victor was a real lowlife. And Narelle says that.

1:01:59 Narelle said Victor was just not the sharpest tool in the shed.

1:02:02 But Victor? Saved his butt in the at one

1:02:04 stage because Kath was a bit wary of him and was like, Nah,

1:02:09 we're gonna like, he's a clean ski.

1:02:10 Yeah. They're like, Nah, there's

1:02:11 something. She thought he was a cop.

1:02:13 And really. And it was Victor that stepped

1:02:15 in and said, Nah, Nah, he's fine.

1:02:17 Nah, don't, don't worry about it.

1:02:19 Leave it. Leave it.

1:02:20 Yeah. And it did them in that he, they

1:02:22 didn't follow up on it. Yeah.

1:02:23 Because yeah. Yeah.

1:02:25 So he's lucky that Victor was a Dick.

1:02:27 But then the interesting thing is that he was the one who

1:02:30 attended this stolen that's. Hilarious just by pure.

1:02:34 Chance that he then arrested Victor yeah.

1:02:37 So seven years later, yeah, just.

1:02:39 Happened to walk in on that some.

1:02:41 Coffee and wow, apparently they both thought, oh, this is a

1:02:43 setup for sure. We're going to get killed here,

1:02:45 Yeah. You, you were after here.

1:02:47 Like, yeah, like, God, yeah, crazy.

1:02:51 But yeah, Kathy did. That's one stage where she did

1:02:53 go to jail and she did get, she did spend 18 months in in jail

1:02:57 for that one. Yeah, for all that.

1:02:59 Yeah. They didn't get it done.

1:03:00 That's. A pretty light on that's pretty

1:03:02 light on given everything she was involved all.

1:03:04 The things that they did and that we, you know, we know about

1:03:06 that they did because there are witnesses to all these things,

1:03:09 but at the time wouldn't speak up.

1:03:12 These people talk about it. They won't go on record and go,

1:03:14 you know, sit in a jury box, sit in a jury, sit in a witness

1:03:17 stand and and give this evidence because they're shit scared.

1:03:20 But we know they were involved in so much stuff.

1:03:23 And for the stuff they're involved in, they have done

1:03:25 minimal time, even like Peter Allen in the family having done

1:03:27 28 years. And that's the most of any of

1:03:30 them that have done. When you think about it in terms

1:03:32 of the amount of crime and the level of crime.

1:03:35 God, they are. They've got away with a hell of

1:03:38 a lot. Yeah.

1:03:38 Yeah. When they were in prison for one

1:03:42 of the stints, Victor actually met Chopper read, or actually,

1:03:47 they've known each other since they were about 14 years of age.

1:03:51 And so but they they'd met up in prison at some point.

1:03:54 And Chopper basically says that Victor confessed without

1:03:59 confessing to him that he'd done the Wall Street shooting.

1:04:02 So it was like a wink, wink, nod, nod, sort of this.

1:04:04 Is the thing it's? Do you not?

1:04:05 Know what I think is so funny? So Chopper put in a an obituary

1:04:09 in The Age newspaper, I believe it was when Victor died, and it

1:04:13 said don't worry, Victoria Cath will keep an eye on things,

1:04:17 Chopper read. Oh God, we all.

1:04:24 Noticed you know Kath with her one one eye keep her.

1:04:28 Eye on it, on things. Chopper would have loved himself

1:04:32 sick for that. Loved him.

1:04:34 Oh, I mean, you know what I think it's.

1:04:36 Great that he. I love it.

1:04:37 Yeah, Jesus. Yeah.

1:04:40 Oh, God. Oh, can we bring up Darren?

1:04:42 Darren Hinch? So what do?

1:04:43 You do Please, I have been waiting for this, so do

1:04:46 yourselves A favour. Absolutely.

1:04:49 Actually, do you know what? I'll link it.

1:04:50 I'll find it again and I'll link it.

1:04:51 OK, do yourselves A favour and listen to this because it is

1:04:55 like the most well, it's uncomfortable, but it's also

1:04:57 like you cannot not listen. No, it's gold.

1:05:01 Yeah. Absolute goal.

1:05:02 So Darren Hinch was a Talkback radio shock jock, I guess.

1:05:05 And he had said, I mean, he had very strong opinions on a lot of

1:05:10 different things. Yeah.

1:05:11 But he had said some nasty shit about Wendy Pierce.

1:05:14 Well, he had. Because this was, like, just

1:05:16 after Victor Pierce had died. Yeah.

1:05:18 And Wendy went to the media to try and find out who she was

1:05:23 desperate to find find who did this.

1:05:25 And she thought that whatever level that everyone else would

1:05:28 care as much as she did about who killed him.

1:05:31 Everyone else is basically going fuck, fuck, fuck, he's dead.

1:05:34 Thank God. The cops are probably going OK.

1:05:36 Well, just another one of our our issues gone.

1:05:38 Like, I don't don't they. She genuinely thought the police

1:05:41 were going to be like, oh, we've got to find who killed him.

1:05:44 They probably already knew they were like who killed him.

1:05:47 I don't care because he killed two of us.

1:05:49 Like yeah, so but she went to the media kind of going, you

1:05:52 know, she put up AAI think a reward as well as she put.

1:05:56 Out of her own money, yeah, I can't.

1:05:57 Remember how much it was like 150 grand?

1:05:59 Yeah, it. Was something like that

1:06:00 considerable? At that time, whatever, it

1:06:02 wasn't, but not, not millions, not but it was, yeah, 150 grand.

1:06:06 I wanna say feel. Like I have read that Yeah, I.

1:06:08 Think you're right. She put it up and it was her own

1:06:09 money she was putting forward to, like, for information to

1:06:12 come forward. And so Darren was like,

1:06:14 basically calling her outgoing. Like, are you for fucking real?

1:06:17 Yeah. Who the fuck do you think you

1:06:19 are? What?

1:06:20 Oh, please read some of these quotes.

1:06:21 Oh my God, that's so good. First very early into it.

1:06:25 He this is I I love this. He calls her a hypocritical

1:06:29 mole. I'm.

1:06:30 Cole, bring back. The mole Bring back.

1:06:32 Mole. I think we should use mole more

1:06:34 often. I was at work the other day and

1:06:37 I said to my work wife something about, oh, you're mole.

1:06:39 And she's like, oh, she just wet herself.

1:06:43 No, like let's do it like I want to bring it in.

1:06:46 We're using mole more often. OK, done.

1:06:48 Yeah, happy. My mum will be up for that too I

1:06:50 reckon. She loves that word does.

1:06:52 She of hat just don't go calling me a mole, OK?

1:06:55 Oh, you're. Not a mole, no tart, maybe, but.

1:07:06 No comment? No.

1:07:08 Yeah. He also called her a gangster

1:07:09 mole. I love it.

1:07:11 Which she took a particular offense to.

1:07:14 Yeah. And I just think that she argued

1:07:16 endlessly with him in this about whether or not Victor or her

1:07:21 were gangsters. Yeah.

1:07:22 And I referred to this in our previous episode because she had

1:07:26 genuinely was trying to argue the fact that they're not

1:07:28 gangsters because they're not Italian.

1:07:31 Yeah. And don't live in America.

1:07:33 Yeah. Stop.

1:07:34 And she was like, she had our components of gangster.

1:07:37 We're not gangsters. You're freaking gangsters.

1:07:40 They're not in a good way. No, no.

1:07:46 Stolen money that people died to protect.

1:07:50 Like fuck off. Anyway, yeah.

1:07:54 Oh, Jesus, it's unhinged, this Hinch, Darren Hinch interview.

1:07:58 I just love it. It's so good.

1:08:01 Yeah. Yeah, she is just a sorry, he

1:08:04 just calls. Her out on all of it, he could

1:08:06 not give a fuck she. He calls her a self-centered

1:08:08 bitch. Like, I mean, this is on radio.

1:08:11 Like live radio live, Yeah. There's no button to place to

1:08:15 like just dump it. There's none of that.

1:08:17 This was going out live to air. And he did not hold back.

1:08:21 Neither does she, no, but the way he speaks to her.

1:08:24 But then. She also threatens him at the

1:08:26 end of that, doesn't she? She basically says, well, you're

1:08:28 lucky you're not. Yeah, you know, he's such.

1:08:31 Oh, so you're gonna threaten me? Yeah.

1:08:32 I mean, he had many people threaten him over his career.

1:08:34 Absolutely. I mean, he was.

1:08:35 That kind of antagonistic, you know, journalist or whatever.

1:08:39 Absolutely. It was his shtick entirely to

1:08:41 wind people up like this and get their reactions.

1:08:43 Yeah, but I mean, he got her damn well.

1:08:46 Oh, yeah. She really came to the front

1:08:49 very good. Oh, listen to it.

1:08:50 It's so good. I will link it below at the

1:08:54 audio of it it is. Just awesome.

1:08:57 Great. Very good.

1:08:59 Bring. Back God, there is so much more

1:09:01 to this story. If you want to know more, there

1:09:04 is a you know what actually I was going to say, there's a lot

1:09:07 of content. There's a lot of written stuff

1:09:08 out there. There's stuff on YouTube, little

1:09:10 clips and stuff, but there's not a lot of podcasts about it.

1:09:13 No, there's not. Not a lot of longer form stuff

1:09:17 about it and which I find really interesting.

1:09:20 But then I also know, like, you know, there are people in this

1:09:23 story who are still alive. Yeah.

1:09:25 And so you know, there's well. Cath's still still kicking,

1:09:29 still alive. Yep.

1:09:30 I mean, obviously Victor's not like, and neither is Dennis.

1:09:34 Peter Allen, the the second eldest brother.

1:09:36 He I believe he's still alive. I think.

1:09:41 Yeah, he's he lives not far from Cath down at Venus Bay, I feel.

1:09:44 Yep. Yeah, there's a few of them

1:09:47 still aren't I think Vicky they. Yep.

1:09:51 No, you're right, Jason. 'S Jason's mum, Vicky.

1:09:56 She's still alive, yes, but that's about it.

1:09:59 That's about it, crew. That's about it.

1:10:01 Yeah, but they're forced to be reckoned with.

1:10:03 I mean, yeah, they're all very under the radar now.

1:10:06 Yeah. But oh wow, that was a time that

1:10:09 was. A time one of Cath's nicknames

1:10:14 as well. Have you heard Granny Evil?

1:10:15 Oh, Granny. Evil.

1:10:17 Yeah, sounds. About right, it does.

1:10:19 Yeah, if you look up Granny Evil, she pops up and you'll see

1:10:21 photos of her. I'll put some on the the socials

1:10:24 and that too, like she looks evil.

1:10:26 Like the eye thing gets me when she's being interviewed.

1:10:29 I can't. It's.

1:10:30 Really. I mean, you can't not look at

1:10:32 it, you look. At it?

1:10:33 Yeah. You look away.

1:10:34 Yeah, but. Well, she can't see me anyway,

1:10:36 I'm sure. Are you?

1:10:37 Sure about that. Yeah, Yeah.

1:10:38 Good eye. Yeah.

1:10:41 Oh, no. Oh.

1:10:42 Dear All right, Well, I think that brings us probably to the

1:10:45 end of what we were going to discuss today.

1:10:47 As I said, this is far reaching if it's something you want to

1:10:49 read more about. But yeah, definitely have a read

1:10:51 of the Matriarch, the book that was written, because the little

1:10:55 bits of that that I have read are fascinating and I am going

1:10:58 to read the rest of that, yeah. Yeah, I think I'll go back to it

1:11:01 when I get some time. Yeah.

1:11:02 But I just wanted to also just at the end of this say and bring

1:11:05 it back to victims that the two police officers who were killed,

1:11:10 they haven't had the justice they deserve.

1:11:13 The role and effect of that of the entire police force.

1:11:15 Then feeling that I have a lot of sympathy in this particular.

1:11:18 I think at the moment, as you're saying, like with what's going

1:11:21 on in Victoria currently, it doesn't, it does not lose impact

1:11:24 on me whatsoever. The fact that these poor men and

1:11:27 like one of them had their family of police officers.

1:11:30 He was, you know, it was his brother and his dad were also

1:11:33 serving police officers at the time.

1:11:35 That's it's just horrific for their families to feel that.

1:11:37 So I can't imagine it. No, I can't even imagine.

1:11:39 And to then be used in this scenario like and they were they

1:11:44 were pawns in this of like to get, you know, revenge, a kind

1:11:48 of stuff where and then to be manipulated through this with a

1:11:50 court system, you know, and her pulling her her testimony at the

1:11:55 last minute. I can can't even begin to

1:11:58 understand how that family would feel that these people then

1:12:02 walked away from that. I can't either you when it's

1:12:05 become very clear from what people have said after the fact.

1:12:08 Obviously double double jeopardy means they can't be couldn't be

1:12:11 retried that yet Wendy has come out since the video.

1:12:14 Video recordings are exist. Yeah, they exist.

1:12:18 She did say this stuff and it made far more sense than her not

1:12:21 than not saying it like the information that she said was

1:12:24 true. Yeah.

1:12:25 And she didn't make any of that up.

1:12:26 Whereas I think Jason's testimony was a bit made-up and

1:12:28 a bit and a bit factual. You know, there were bits in

1:12:30 there. Yeah.

1:12:31 I think for him though. You know, he was so young.

1:12:34 Yeah. And petrified, we should say.

1:12:36 He's still in protective custody and his mum to this day, so they

1:12:40 have no contact with the rest of them.

1:12:42 So yeah, it's just, yeah, again, that ripple effect, it's huge,

1:12:47 the amount of people impacted. And yeah, those police officers

1:12:50 most certainly did not deserve what they got on that night.

1:12:52 No way. I mean, they were so young, they

1:12:53 hadn't even had a chance to live their lives, no.

1:12:56 Not so much potential. Yeah, we can wrap it up on that

1:13:00 sombre note, yeah. Yeah.

1:13:02 Well. Stay with us, next week we are

1:13:05 going to cover the case of Ruby Frankie.

1:13:08 Very different. Different, Yeah, different,

1:13:10 different case entirely. Yeah.

1:13:13 So stick with us for that one. And as always, please continue

1:13:17 commenting, liking, sharing. If you can share this podcast

1:13:20 with one other person who you think might like it, it would go

1:13:23 a very, very long way in helping us and hit that.

1:13:25 Subscribe button on whatever platform you're listening to us.

1:13:28 That goes a long way too and puts us out there.

1:13:30 So we're rating on many of the the the podcast charts and

1:13:34 things, which is amazing. So yeah, hopefully and the more

1:13:38 people that hit that button, the more we we spread as well.

1:13:41 So thank you. All right.

1:13:42 Well. We'll see you guys next week.

1:13:45 Stay. Curious crime besties.

1:13:46 Bye. I missed my hands.

1:14:11 God, we've been doing this for 60 something episodes.

1:14:13 You think you'd have it? Well, we haven't been clapping

1:14:15 for 60. We've been.

1:14:17 Clapping from the beginning, I think.

1:14:18 Have we? I think we have.

1:14:20 I feel like. We didn't know why we were

1:14:21 clapping it. Oh yeah, no.

1:14:22 I that's the thing, I think we clap, but we just didn't know

1:14:24 why, Peter said. Peter said.

1:14:26 We clap. Oh God.

1:14:29 All right.