Episode 62 - The Pettingills Part 1

0:15 Welcome back to Crime Besties. Here we are. Another week, another episode. Meg, please tell me your week's been a little bit better than the last few. Yeah, it's totally been fucked up. But you know, we're, we're here. We're. Here I. Feel like again, I feel like it was yesterday we were here. Because this week has gone. Like lightning, but gone. And thank God it's gone. I'm ready for a new week. Yeah, but a new year would be good too. Yeah. So we've got one more week of school and then you've got a couple of weeks breaks and that probably can't come soon enough I'm guessing.

0:49 I'm really looking forward to that. I mean, although I'll probably head into work, but yeah, yeah. How about you? Though at a slightly slower pace. Yeah, exactly. Just take breath. I can just need breath. Every teacher I've spoken to, we had parent teacher interviews yesterday, and both of the teachers we met with both said the same thing. Like this has been a mental term. There's been so much on, plus it's a short term. So much has been crammed into it. Yeah, I can't. Like, I think we said this last week as well.

1:19 The kids are exhausted and you know we've got one more week to get through so. Yeah, and even this week, like there's so much on this week. Oh my God, we've like, we've got so many things at school. Event, school, colour run. There's Football Day day today, Yeah. Oh, there's I can't even think of. That kids usually last day of school have like free dress day as. Well, that's day isn't? It Oh, I'm pretty sure you're. Welcome. God. We'll go through and we'll confer calendars at the end of this, OK?

1:45 I thought there was something on on the Thursday. Yeah, I'm gonna need to. Let's let's go through our calendars at the. End. But this is what's killing me at the moment. I'm someone who I know when like everything goes in my calendar and I always say like if it doesn't go in the calendar it doesn't happen. Yeah, but I'm a week ahead like going right. That's how my week is. And by this point I would know exactly what's going on for next week and it's all in my head anyway. No, no, I'm forgetting things and that's telling me I'm too busy.

2:08 Yeah, yeah. But bring on the school holidays and a bit of a break from all that my. God, sleep, sleep. Yay. Well, I've had a busy week personally as well because I mean, not only have we had all of the kids activities like this week, we had a curriculum day. I don't know Ollie had peer mediation training yesterday. So he got he got they got to wear free dress to school the grade fives I. Saw a few of them wearing this, the free dress and was like what's going on there? That's it. It's only so few, like few of them.

2:38 And I'm like, it's not a whole no no, just the peer. Mediators and they got a free Hot Chip lunch which was the highlight. Chip lunch. That's so. Isn't that gorgeous? They loved it, but you know what they have to do as peer mediators. I think this is so funny. They wear vests at recess and lunchtime. So there's a roster. Yeah. And you wear a vest at recess and lunchtime. And then if there's some kind of conflict in the yard, the yard duty teacher will get them peer mediators to try and sort it out first.

3:08 Now, three things. First thing, the vests. They're always like 3 sizes too big for them. Second thing, having grade fives and it goes into next year as well. So they do it turn 1-2 and three for next year as well. Yeah. You know, having grade fives and grade sixes, mediating, I just think that's absolutely gorgeous. Oh, could you imagine? I I actually can't. I'm actually loving that. I'm thinking, like, the sorts of things that Oliver might, you know, instill in the children and also, like, get them to do.

3:38 Yeah, exactly. I'm like, this is quite creative. This is. Very creative, so I'm looking forward to hearing some stories about about what comes with that. Oh yeah, so. I bet you're the yard duty teachers are like oh you fucking let them deal with it. I just can't even. As a yard duty teacher, one of my pet hates was the fact of like you'd get called over to something that had already occurred and kids are like already at each other but you had no context. Like you did not see any of what went on and you're meant to now make a decision of who gets the ball or whatever it is.

4:07 Like, you know and you know that no matter what, you're not going to get it right because you just, you don't know what happens. It actually. Matters and so you no and so you're hearing the kids out kind of going. I I don't know, I hated that. Like, yeah, you want, you wouldn't have seen it to go kids. Come up and they're just like whiny and annoying like they're like, yes, such and such, said this to. Me ultimate favorite that I still refer to today was this little like I think must have been a preppy sort of thing or grade one.

4:37 Actually, it might have been came running up to me going miss. So once I just said the E word, I'm like oh God, the E word. And I'm racking my brain like Oh God. OK, so. I mean, I know my swears. I know my. Swears I'm pretty good with them and I don't think of an E1 E word like E I'm not sure what do you mean how like I'm thinking how bad could this be? Yeah, exactly that I do I need to intervene Yeah. And then I'm like, OK, well you can say the word, but just once, just so I can understand how bad this like what I need to do here is and saddles up to me and goes, he said.

5:12 Idiot. Oh, that's so cute. Oh. OK, well look, not a nice word, but I think we can move on the E word. That is so funny. Yeah, that is so, so classic. I love it. Love a preppy. You're innocent, kid. But then also it would get annoying. Can you imagine out you coming up just going I've said fuck again. Never hear it at home so I don't know where they get it from. No idea where that comes from. No, no, no. So on account of my recent significant birthday this week, I've had so many appointments. So I'm like, this is a public service announcement to everyone to get your shit checked.

5:57 Because this week I had booked in my skin check, which was due, and I have to actually have a biopsy of one of my moles. God. So I mean, I think it's fine. Yeah. Yeah. But just to be 100? Percent Are you sure far prefer to just Oh yeah, check and. Be on. Yeah, it'll be fine. And then I've got two more we're keeping an eye on. And then I also had my breast screen this week because I've got a family history of breast cancer. So you can go and have breast screen from 40. Another public service now.

6:23 Get on it, ladies. Have you who has checked? Yeah, uncomfortable for like 30, 30 seconds, you know, just do it. Job. Yeah, I've got to bite the bullet. I haven't done one. Yeah, you need to do it. Yeah. And then what else have I done? I just feel like I've had all my appointments this week to like really get. Myself, your old lady appointment. Yes, I'm having an iron infusion this afternoon. Jealous. I'm jealous of that. Like. Literally just getting myself into tip top shape because I feel like you, I feel so depleted at the minute.

6:51 So like, I don't know everyone. We we were just talking before we started recording even. Like you're just randomly talking to mums at school. Yeah, everyone's exhausted. It's just so like, I cannot wait for spring, the nice weather. Hopefully that'll bring us some much needed energy. I mean. That's the thing that doesn't even mean that bad. The weather, like it's not terrible, it's not gloomy like it's. Not but it I'd like a bit more sun. Oh, look, I'll take the sun with it. But it's not been horrendous.

7:16 No, I think so. The only thing I'm kind of blaming on maybe like is that there's some sort of eclipse occurring. Apparently I was. Told there was a blood moon this week. Oh, see, there you go. It's we're all becoming werewolves. The last. Time there was a blood moon was in was like 3 or 4 years ago, right? So, you know, it's a, it's a fairly, you know, significant event. Yeah, OK. Right. That's. Gonna be 1 calendar. Oh. 'Cause my kids are feral. Like I, I said think I said to you like last week.

7:44 I'm like, I swear to God, I thought I was getting my period because I was like, I was an absolute she wolf. And I'm like, why am I feeling like this? Like I don't know why. I don't feel like wrong, like oh God, it's got to be that, but it's not. I don't know. I think it's just life at the minute. It's crazy. Yeah, yes, yes. But anyway. But you've still got to make time to do all of those things that you have to do and keep yourself nice and healthy. Absolutely. Do it. Yeah. We need time in our brains to get the research done.

8:12 So because we're here for the people. Oh yeah, we are. Although both of us this week were like, oh, could we have done more? Some more I reckon, but the thing I think with this one you could do endless amounts too. Yeah. So it's probably worth saying we're splitting this episode up into two parts, So you'll hear the first part this week and the second part next week. Yeah. And that's because there is so much to this family. So we're, we're discussing the Pettingill family, mm, hmm. And all of the subsidiaries of that.

8:41 So we're gonna split this into two because it and even then, even in two episodes, we're not gonna cover. It no, there's no way there's no way you can do through 4. You do a full series on them just alone easily. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But yeah. So we're gonna split it up and we'll talk today about, you know, Kath Pettingill, the clan, as they're kind of referred to by even by a lot of people refer to the clan. The matriarch being Kath will talk about her and probably her out and her eldest son Dennis a fair bit today.

9:09 But then and we'll really focus next week on a particular crime linked to this family that were that's they were put on trial for it, etcetera. But is the Wall Street killings that happened in Melbourne. So yeah, so we'll focus on that next week, but and that'll be a key focus of that. And obviously the family members that were linked to that. Yeah. So, yeah. But this, this I think we'll break it up in that they'll be very full episodes. Yeah, a lot in both. Yeah, enough to sink your teeth into, but there'll be a similarity in across both being the same family involved in what we're talking about.

9:43 Absolutely. Just before we get started in today's episode that I do have a few shout outs. Oh. Definitely. So oh, actually the other thing I've wanted to talk about, and I think we should do it in this episode because this is obviously coming out first, the mushroom verdict. Oh my God, how did we not even get into this thing? No. I know, Oh my God, so because I loved I literally all weekend was like right Monday morning. I know I can get done stuff at work. I can sit in my office, put my earbuds in and have like, you know, it running and I could listen to the verdict.

10:10 But, like, my morning was insane, as it always is at the moment. And yeah. So when I got your message, are you listening to the verdict that I was like, shit, get back to my office. Nobody talked to me, nobody interrupted me. Like, Oh my God, to listen to it live was definitely valuable. Like I, I, I liked being able to do that. Yeah, me too. That was awesome. That was really great. And it's something that we've never been able to do in Australia before. No, it's the camera to have been on it. Wouldn't that have?

10:40 Been great. So you could only see Justice Biel. Yeah, but the fact that you were able to hear every, everywhere, he added, was amazing. Because I mean, you can read the transcripts and things potentially afterwards, but to hear them speak the words, I really do think it has a bit different impact. Like I. Definitely think that. And I, I thought the way he spoke, I mean, he's just obviously a very respectable man. And. Very level headed. He had really good reasonings and the way he structured the, you know, the delivery of it was, was great.

11:12 Yeah. But then I also really appreciated the fact that he used people's statements in his delivery of the verdict. And like, he swore like, live on TV, like in a live broadcast. I'm like wow. Yes, it. Was very, very interesting. But for those, I mean, I think everybody probably knows, but for those of you who don't know, he was. Aaron Patterson was sentenced to 25 years for the attempted murder of Ian Wilkinson and then life imprisonment for the murders of GAIL. Oh, my God. I've just had a mental blank.

11:52 Don and GAIL Patterson. Yeah. And Heather Wilkinson. Yeah. Sorry I just had a total mental blank. There. Oh well, there's a bit of a man in your brain at the moment. Yeah, there's other names that are going around in my head. Yeah. And then he was, he sentenced her to a 33 year non parole period, which, OK, so when you and I were chatting back and forth, yeah, what's going on? We were like, oh, that seems woefully inadequate. Yeah, I would have liked to. Have been minimum 40. But then I also, now that I've read a lot more about it, I totally understand where he's coming from because there is precedent for a 33 years for three murders.

12:26 Yeah. And that is with the Farkwesen case. So he got the same sentence. He got three life sentences. Yeah, with a 33 year minimum term. And I feel like if he hadn't have, if he had have sentenced Erin to more than so that he so Farkwesen is serving the longest prison sentence with a non parole period in Victoria at the moment. Yeah. If he had have sentenced Erin to more than that, it could have opened up up because there's no precedent. It could have opened up even more reason for a challenge or appeal, which we don't know if she's doing that yet, although I suspect she will.

13:00 But I don't know, they didn't appeal the the conviction at all either. They don't. Have to appeal the conviction until the sentences handed down OK, so they've got 28 days from from Monday, right to appeal either the conviction, the conviction or the sentence or both right OK so they've got until I think it's early October, like the 6th of October or something like that to in order to do that but. They've not indicated prior to this like the any any. But they only have to indicate by the 6th. Yes, that's right.

13:32 It doesn't mean that the no, that's. It happened on that. But there's been no talk prior to the sentencing that, you know, like normally you'll hear like, you know, oh, they have intentions of, you know, of, of appealing this. You'll hear that pretty early on, like the minute they walk out of the court and when they've got the conviction, they'll be like, you know, we'll be appealing this quite clearly. Like it's obvious. But in in this one, to me, there's no obvious reason to be appealing. And I think that that what the judge has done in this sentencing has made this a little bit less likely to be appealed even from here.

14:02 For that reason, I do completely get it. I agree with that, yeah, I really do agree with that. However, she maintains her innocence and so I don't think she can because even her her defence barrister conceded in their final in their conviction, yes. What was it the pre sentence hearing? Yes, he conceded yes, she should absolutely get life in prison for these. But he appealed for a minimal non parole period. Yeah, right. Yeah. So he conceded that she you know, she's been convicted of three murders.

14:35 She should be getting life in prison for those 3 murders. Yeah. But what I think they might do is because she's still to this day maintains her innocence, which also then added weight to Justice Beal's sentence because he said she's shown no remorse by still saying she's innocent. But then I'm like, are they going to then use that? Because if she had A at at any point gone, yeah, all right, I am guilty of this. She might have received a a more lenient sentence. This is it. I mean, she's she's admitted that there was definitely death cat mushrooms in the mail.

15:08 Yes, she did that from the get go. So, well, not from the get go. Well, no, no, no, like no, not from the, I mean from the. Start of the trial. Trial is what I meant like from the trial point she did obviously still then thinking like in the the idea that then it is manslaughter that she that they went in there but she had no idea that's what they were I guess but her actions after. Well, that's what that's why. Which is what is you know, transpired. Yeah yeah. So I think that though I just. It'll be interesting to say.

15:38 There's been a lot that's come out since that I know is not part of this. Even no matter what comes out now publicly, that doesn't affect what goes on in the court hearings that she could be potentially brought, other charges could potentially still be brought to her. So do you want to, I don't know, do you want to roll the dice on that? Do you know what I mean? Like if they do go appealing this, I think that that's only driving, you know, investigators and things to find other things to get put on her because I think that she should see the light of day.

16:09 No, I mean, I think she's dangerous. If she gets out, if she so at the end of the 33 years, she can apply for bail, Yeah, or for parole. But that doesn't mean she'll get it. No, but she'll be 82 at that point, yes. So. And that's. Not for mushrooms. That's exactly what I said. I said to her, like, are you 2 foraging for mushrooms? Yeah, I think she could again. And I think you. Could. And seriously, from what? We're just not that old. No, I mean, you're not going over to her place to have a meal and like or even like allowing her to buy you a drink at the cafe.

16:42 Like and I know I'll get my own thanks. Like, there's no way I would trust her in terms of coming out even at 82 and not doing this, you know? What I think is going to be really interesting because they're now saying like obviously throughout the the trial there was there were documentary crews, yeah, following it so much to come. There's going to be a lot coming out. I'm sure there's some more long form podcast. I mean, Simon Patterson, I think he's writing a book and producing a podcast and that'll be really interesting to see what comes out there.

17:16 Yeah, but I don't know. I, I, I just, I feel as though she, she I agree with you. She should never see the light of day. Again, but I feel like she's the kind of prisoner who will behave in jail, right? Because she's not going to be in contact with anyone else as it is. Like kind of she's going to be so isolated because she's now notorious that without that opportunity in that time to be in contact with other people, that she will in behaviour look as though she's ready for parole. But then she's, yeah, she's not a violent criminal in that sense that she's not in like a prison where she's like, oh, shake the crap out of this person.

17:56 She's shanked that person. Yeah. Like she's not. So that's not going to be the case where you kind of go, well, yeah, they need to be still in jail. She's going to look like the model prisoner and come out into the society again and hold her shit together and be poisoning people left, right and centre potentially. Like I just, I don't know, I don't trust the system on this one. Yeah. And then the other thing is like the people who are responsible for The Who, who'll be on the parole board in 33 years, possibly haven't even been born yet.

18:23 So, but contextually, you know, there's a lot around that, isn't it? Actually got my son, my eldest son on that parole board there. Like he's, yeah, he'll be down for this. He was the one that he heard that there was an outcome and he came and asked me about it. And I was like, well, yes, I can give you a little bit of information and like something like talking about this stuff with my kids. But no, he's really into it. It's just. Been everywhere. It has. And so we had a chat and he was the one going like, well, I'm not going to her place for dinner.

18:51 Good boy. Yeah. So he's onto it that yeah, she's not someone to be trusted. I don't. I really don't think that, but then do. You think we're going to find out a lot more about crime, potential alleged crimes past throughout whatever's going to come out? Yeah, soon. So I'm super super. Cute. I'm just hearing all sorts of things. Yeah, at the moment, yeah. That can't be proven and that can be proven like you know with with investigations, so. Yeah, wait and see. What's this space? All right, we should probably.

19:23 Oh, wait a minute. I haven't done my shout outs yet. I was about to say we should get in, but we have a massive thank you to Fiona Wilton for Buy Me a Coffee. Yes. Patreon's Esme Dixon and Claire O'Sullivan, thank you very, very much for joining us over on Patreon. We've then had a bumper Instagram again. I think we had one last week. Again, we've had a similar amount of engagement this week. So thanks to everybody on any of our social platforms. It's really, really helpful. We've got Lucy Morris.

19:52 I am Angela Joy and Alison Tan. Just thanks, ladies. I just love it. Thank you very, very much. Yeah. Should we get into today's case? Let's get into this one. There's so much today. So much. All right, well, we're talking about the infamous Pettingill clan. They are a Melbourne crime family. We're talking pre gangland and then into the early sort of early gangland time in Melbourne and they were just crims from the get go, weren't they? Well. Yeah, even going back prior to like this family that we're talking about, you know, this insular family family, Yeah, there's, you know, prior to that, you know, Kath, the matriarch that we mentioned, like even beyond that they were all they've, she's grown up in this.

20:40 This is yeah, yeah. Insane. Let's start off by talking about Kath. So Kath is the matriarch of the Pettingill family. She was born on the 27th of March in 1935, and she had a very interesting upbringing in and of herself. Yeah. So her mother was a serial bigamist. I didn't know this is this is the stuff I didn't know a lot about Kath. I've I've heard a lot about Kath and her than her kin, like her family, that her offspring and all her children. Exactly, but I didn't know much until. This week when you go back to who she is.

21:18 You totally get it. It really makes. More sense like of how this occurred and who she is like well. Just wait, guys. Yeah, She had a sister named Wilma and a younger sister named Barbara who died when she was really young, when Kath was. Kath was 6 and her sister was, I think, 4. When she passed away, she actually had polio, her younger sister. And apparently the the way in which she died was incredibly tragic. So they knew she'd had polio. And a family friend who had a car, she was getting very, very much, you know, her health was deteriorating.

22:01 The family friend came to take her to the hospital. And as he was carrying her out of the house into the car, she died in his arms. And Kath was there. She saw this all happen. It's absolutely horrific. Then apparently, Kath said this as this. It was all playing out, Kath said to Wilma, her other sister. Step onto the road, Wilma, and you could die too. Now Kath was six. Yeah, Kath was six at the time. And this family friend who came to take Barbara to the hospital couldn't believe it was absolutely blown away, like what 6 year old said.

22:41 And it was apparently she was just deadpan. Like. There was nothing there. Oh my. God, yeah. Oh, that's awful. Yeah, that's who she was from very young. From very young, that was. Born This Way, yes. She was Born This Way, yes. So Kath was mostly brought up by her grandmother. And a great grandmother. Yeah, great. Grandmother because her mother was well, she was a teen parent and was absolutely unable to cope with her three then two daughters. I think the fact that Barbara died was the sort of the end of it, although, as in the end of any sort of extra contact she then had with Wilma and Kath.

23:21 Yeah, but they'd basically been living with their grandmother and great grandmother for most of their lives, hadn't they? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because so Kath's dad, she was told, had gone off to war. And so then her mum was left on her own with the kids, didn't cope and didn't cope. But I believe that's not actually what happened. So I believe her dad actually committed suicide. That was after he came back from war. No, that, no, no. Sorry, that was well, he was over there. Yes, you're. Right. Yeah.

23:53 You're absolutely right. Yeah, so she was told that he died at war, but he didn't. Yes, sorry. You're absolutely right. Yeah, he committed suicide. Yeah, while he was at war. Yeah, that was because Kat's mum was sending him all these horrific messes about how much she hated him and how awful he was. She really drove him to that. Like, he was apparently quite a decent bloke. Yeah. And, you know, so him coming home could have meant that they could have had quite a good lifestyle together and raised their family.

24:23 Yeah, but she like relentlessly just destroyed him in letters, like, and she was off with other men and all these sorts of things too. Yeah. So and she would send him letters about all this and how he was telling him he was an awful person, all that sort of stuff. And yeah, yeah, ended up he, they sort of referred to it as saying, you know, like, yes, he committed, he committed suicide. But actually it was Kat's mum basically killed him. Like from from a distance, from afar. Yeah, I mean, he must have had some shit going on.

24:51 I mean, the fact that he was at war as well as just a really bad sort of circumstances, Beth and Wilma, and I assume Barbara, up until the point of her very young death, they didn't actually even know that their mother was their mother. They assumed their grandmother was their mother and their great grandmother was their grandmother. And their mum was their sister. Their mum was their sister and the mum would their mum would come back and re emerge very sporadically throughout their lives. And Wilma was apparently deathly afraid of her.

25:20 She was a drug addict. She was really off the planet. And Wilma never wanted to go with her. Kath always wanted to go with her. Yeah, Anytime she came, Kath would go. So one day she came back and tried to take the girls for the day. Wilma didn't go. She stayed at home with her grandmother and great grandmother. Yeah, but so they just took Kath. So Kath's mom and her boyfriend at the time took Kath and they went on a bus and then the boyfriend hijacked the boss. Like the public boss. Oh my God. He then, I think they did let everyone off, but he then drove the bus over a Cliff in the Dandenongs.

26:07 Holy shit. Yeah, and Kath watched it and thought it was the best thing she'd ever seen. Oh my. God. Like this is just a bit of an idea of. What the lifestyle she was living was in. Like, and that wasn't like, Oh my fucking God. It was like, oh cool. Yeah, so no wonder the you can understand the oldest like the other. So the other sister going, oh, I'm don't want to hang out with these. I don't want to spend time with these people. Like that's not safe and staying home. But then but you can imagine this little calf going like give me that.

26:37 I want that that adrenaline rush. I want that kind of feeling and want to be with that. It's interesting then to say like, you know, how it plays out, how that plays out. Yeah. But everyone noted that she was a very strange child and that she did very, a lot of very unusual things, one being praying to Satan instead of God. I mean, she, because apparently she, but they weren't overly religious, the family, but they were like, you know, spent time at church and things. But she read the Bible and decided that Satan was more powerful than God, clearly.

27:11 And so I liked him. So I'll, I'll pray to him instead. And I mean, not many kids would have a forethought to do that. I mean, they, you know, they, they, they played over their brains. You can, you know, manipulate them how you like. And no, she had her own thoughts on things very clearly and how she was going to manage her, her life. But she, yeah, apparently prayed to Satan that she would have to have 10 children, which I find that really interesting, that she wanted to desperately not even just be a mother, which have a but have a massive family.

27:41 But to me, very minimal motherly instinct, by the sounds of things, of the. Kind of. Well, I actually disagree with that to a certain extent because, yeah. But we'll get we'll. Get into her motherhood in a minute. But I actually disagree with that. I think she she wanted to create this. Family. She wanted to create an army. Not to me, not a family. Oh, OK. I don't know. Yeah, I think that's, oh, I don't know. Is that circumstantial? Is that just the way it panned out? I mean, obviously she had, you know, her fingers in a lot of bad pies.

28:15 But anyway, let's let's get into her kids. Maybe. Yeah. So. Well, actually, just really quickly. Wilma, her sister, Yeah. Grew up to be a civil servant. She lived in camp lives still to this day. I believe in Canberra as a civil servant. Wow. Very, very clean skin Life. Never. Completely different to completely. Different but I believe she and Cath were are in contact and they still have an OK relationship. I'm assuming Baluma doesn't ask questions. That's the only kind of relationship I think you'd want to have with her if you were elated or know, yeah, or know of her.

28:49 Like I'd, I'd, I'd be very pleasant to her as well. Yeah, move away. So when Kath was 16, yeah, her first son, Dennis, was born to a father named Ryan Dennis. Ryan. Ryan Dennis Ryan. Sorry. Yeah. So yeah, that's right. Sorry. I've written Ryan because. Of Dennis, yeah to. Distinish it, sorry. Yeah, and he didn't want to marry her, but at the time pregnant 16 year old kind of had no other choice. And given as you said, they weren't religious, but I think the kids went to like Catholic schools. And yeah, they were definitely involved in the church.

29:25 They just weren't that into it. But they were definitely involved in the church. Yeah, so they ended up getting married. The first time they attempted to get married, he actually stood her up at the altar. He didn't show up. Yeah. And then they've obviously reorganized the wedding again. And this time, she kept him waiting, just to give him a taste of his own medicine. Well, I think that that's the minimum that she should have. Done. He got offline. Yeah. He served in World War 2 and they were only together for a couple of years.

30:02 They did have another child together and at the time Dennis didn't actually know who his birth mother was. So in the same way that Kath didn't really know that her mum was her mum, thought her mum was her sister. That exact scenario is what played out when Kath had Dennis. Kath's grandmother actually brought Dennis up. Yeah, yeah. And again, Dennis believed that Kath was his sister, older sister who was in and out of their lives. A bit like she wasn't always around. Yeah. Don't you think that's mental?

30:43 I really do have. You known the trauma of that. Yes. And yet she's just gone and done that to her own, to her own children because her second. So Dennis Bruce Allen, he was born in 1951. Yeah. Their second son was Peter Allen. He was born in 1953. So I think they're only about actually 18 months apart. Yeah. And they both thought that their great grandmother was their mom. Yeah. It's weird, but they were all so young. Like the great grandmother wouldn't have even been 60. No, she was still young.

31:22 Yeah. So yeah. Just insane. Like it's just, yeah, I can't get my head around those sorts of. Things it really, it actually really does blow my mind. Yeah, it really does blow my mind, yeah. So yeah, Kath told the boys that she was their sister. Like it was an Yeah, No, it wasn't just just. You heard it was. Yeah. Completely understood by them all that that's that's your sister. Yeah, so the boys found out that Kath was their mum when they were both in a in the Toronto boys home. So they were both institutionalized because they were petty crim.

31:54 Well, not petty criminals, they were criminal criminals. Yeah, and they were in the Toronto boys home and she wrote them a letter to let them know. Oh, by the way, I'm actually not your sister. Yeah. And apparently, like Dennis really took that pretty hard. Yeah, yeah, he did not cope with. That identity crisis, and he was a teen, so I think he was only 13 when he found out. Yeah, which I mean, that's old enough to comprehend and understand. It's also like. You are forming your identity at 13. Yeah, you know.

32:21 And I think. And The thing is that Kath did it so heartlessly. Yeah. Like that she thought that this was nothing but. Oh, yeah, you're old. I don't know that I'm actually your mom. Yeah. I mean, but yeah, so I think she just thought it was just a bit of like, oh, I'll let you know now. But it actually had impact on. I just, yeah. No thought process from her end in terms of the impact of that, but definitely had impacts. Yeah. Yeah. Oh man. Dennis and Peter didn't really get along very well. They there was a lot of conflict between them as brothers.

32:55 And one of the stories that really got me, and I think this will get you if you don't know it already. Yeah. So basically this was when they were a little bit older, they had their own homes and Peter had done something to really piss Dennis off and he so Dennis went over to Peter's place to, I think, honestly, I think he was going there to kill him, but Peter wasn't home. So what he did instead is he Peter had two dogs. He shot them up with hot shots of amphetamines and put them at the bottom of the empty pool in the backyard of Peter's house, right.

33:34 And basically, when Peter got home, he found that his dogs, because they'd had this massive dose of methamphetamine, they had viciously mauled each other to death, and they were just dead in the bottom of the pool, blood everywhere. Oh my God, that's just awful. It's. Fucked up. And he would have. He would have known what he was doing in that sense. He knew what the impact of that hot shot kind of thing would do like. They were, I, I mean, Dennis for sure, what was a methamphetamine user? Oh yeah, yeah.

34:10 He would use he would use amphetamines to go days and days and days without sleep. Oh, he was known to just currently had a tourniquet around his his arm so that he could just whenever he wanted one, have another. Shot and friends of his or friends, acquaintances, whatever people who hung around him said he would. He would have a have a go every 15 minutes just to keep himself going. There were periods of time where he would be awake for two weeks at a time without having rest. Apparently he was an absolute monster when he was on these benders.

34:42 Yes, he didn't know who he was, where he was. There were times where he tried to murder anyone and everyone around him. He went to murder Kath one day because he didn't know who Kath. Was on numerous times he would chase Kath around and stuff thinking it was his, she was his girlfriend or whatever, which he did not treat them well. And he either that he would. Yeah. So like, yeah, she would have to like, say to him. But Dennis, Dennis, I'm your mother. I'm your mother. Like don't. No, no, don't.

35:07 Kill me, kill me. I'm only I'm your mother. Find someone else. Find your girlfriend to go and do that too. Yeah. So he would just completely black out in terms of what was going on around him. He it was bad, yeah. I think the fact that he, like, he was the kingpin of, of crime in, in a suburban Melbourne in the 70s and 80s, yeah. And Kath was even scared of him, which I think that's saying something. But she's not scared by her mum's boyfriend driving a bus off the cliffs in the Dandenongs, but she's scared of her own son.

35:41 Oh, yeah. You know, I think that says a lot. Yes, Dennis was clever in a lot of ways. Yes, he built up a an insane drug empire. At the peak of his earnings in this space he was earning 70,000. Now I'm talking this is back in the 70s and 80s. He was earning $70,000 a week. Yeah. So there was a calculation I saw of like that they worked as about 3.3 to 5 million a year, which in today's money would be about 21 mil a year. Wow. Yeah. So he was raking it in and like, so there's varying reports on it, but that was kind of like the one that I heard more often than not.

36:24 Right. Yeah. And he had a lot of police officers on the take as well. So yes, I mean, we're talking. A very famous one at that. Yeah, we're talking back in the 70s and 80s. There was a lot of corruption within Victoria Police at the time, many police forces across the country and across the world. Things are very, very different these. Days stuff that like you know that yeah has taken place with the cops in this I I you got a question both ends a little oh a lot maybe a lot a lot yeah, he was. Paying.

36:52 There were two police officers in particular, I think one of which that you were referring to before. He was paying them $1000 a day per cop. There were two of them for their essentially for their protection and their silence. Yeah, $1000. Now as a cop, what would you wear? I don't know what their salaries were. Back not $1000 a day. I'm tipping like that would be, I think. You're earning an extra. Five, I mean, at that time, that era, I'd say 1000 bucks a week. If they were earning 1000 bucks a week as a cop, that would earn a lot of money.

37:23 I highly. Doubt it was a month. Exactly. Exactly. Oh. It's just an extraordinary amount of money, Yeah, it's just insane, yes. So at this time, when you know Dennis is going around, he's the kingpin of this inner suburban Melbourne. Kath was actually running a brothel at the time and they had a little nice little setup where Cats brothel was right next door to Dennis's drug house. Which purposely he had done that set that up because basically the brothel is a legal place to. Run. It wasn't at the time.

37:55 Oh, at the time they weren't legal. It was a rub and tug. It was a massage part. Oh, that's right, Massage it was too. So basically the cops would raid this place though. So what? They would operate their things out of there, but what they would do is have from the building next door, they would literally, you know, shift everything from the other door or something. They built all these trapdoors and things to get things around so that basically when the cops would come in and raid, they'd find nothing.

38:18 They knew knew this stuff was going on. They'd come in and get it, but it wouldn't be there because they would take split seconds for them to just remove it as they saw the cops arriving through these trap doors and windows, etc, into the building next door. Yeah. I mean, and the cops didn't seem to catch on to the fact that to go on like, I mean, they couldn't get a warrant then to do the next door house, you know, and things like that. So, yeah. And it's insane. And then I would assume that, you know, given how much money was involved, they probably had some people higher up who they were paying off as well.

38:45 Who you know, we're like, no, no, no, we're not going to do that. No, don't worry about them. We'll leave them alone because. Other than what they do too is like they would have weapons, they'd have guns. I mean the kind of level of guns they would have was insane. I mean, this is prior to our gun reforms too, so that you know wasn't they weren't legally obtained though in anyway. So what they would do is they would actually attach these guns to rope so that they would could then just put them hang them over the fence so that because if it was was not in your on on your land and in your house, it was no longer your possession.

39:20 So you they couldn't get done for having the possession of these these weapons because it was it literally would have a rope and you would be able to see the rope attaching it. But because the actual weapon was on the other side of the fence no longer. So the cops could literally see this but couldn't arrest them for it because legally it was not in their possession. That blows my mind, but I mean, that just goes to show sometimes the law can be absolutely ridiculous. Totally. But then the level of like and this what gets me with these sorts of things, with these criminals, they're not stupid.

39:50 Oh no, they're intelligent people. Like, I would never think of this shit. No. And because my brain doesn't work that way, then I go, I'm intelligent person, but there's no way I'd think of this. They found every loophole possible. Yeah, insane. Yeah, so they they were involved in so many other illicit activities as well. It wasn't just the drug trade. Well, one particular thing we probably should mention I think around Cath is that it was in 1978. I believe there was a reason that her daughter I was bail money her daughter, which we should mention.

40:27 So Vicki, Vicki Brooks, she was born in 1954 to her next partner from who we she was the next eldest in line. So she she was born to Billy, Billy or William Pierce. She had, yeah, been to jail and she owed bail money for of $300 roughly. And another person had put that money up because Kath, they didn't have the money at the time to pay for it. So the idea was that Vicky would then come out of jail and would pay this guy back. But she didn't. She kept not paying it back. So Kath being someone who did not want this on them, them that they owe this money to someone, hated owing that money, people money, she decided to go around to pay this money back to this guy.

41:07 So she rocked up at this guy's house with the cash ready to pay. Like it's not that she wasn't going to give him the money, knocked on his door. The guy saw that it was Kath at the door and shot a shot towards her. Through the door. Through. The door even opened the door through the door hit Kath in the eye it her eyeball dislodged flung out and landed on Dennis standing next to her at the door vomit. I just can't. So she to this day has a glass eye in for that, in that socket her her words. And this is you can go online and hear her say this getting shot doesn't hurt you, just you don't feel anything.

41:55 You're just going to shock. Yeah. There's no pain, Yeah. Cool. Cool, Cool. Cool, cool, cool. For that cave, yeah, but her, her now eye is this glass eye and it doesn't blink either It's. She's lost all of the nerves and everything. Yeah. But what I think is really interesting is the police were called to the scene. Yeah. I mean, Kat's been taken off to hospital and having all that dealt with. Yes. And so they charged this man and his wife, I think it was with attempted murder. Yeah. So they go to court, it goes to trial because they plead not guilty, It goes to trial.

42:25 And Kat being their * eyewitness, that just came to me as I was talking that. Was fucking wild. Oh God. She refused to testify against them because criminals they they stick to their code, she. Yeah, You do not snitch. You do not snitch that. Snitches get stitches. Absolutely no. So she absolutely denied it, you know, any of it and said. No. And so they got off. They were acquitted. Yep.

42:54 So just really quickly before we get into, I was going to talk about some more of Dennis's crimes, but I just want to quickly mention about Kath as well. She has we think 10 biological children. Yeah, we don't know for sure because three, we think three of them were adopted out when they were babies. Yes, so. From what everywhere reports that I've read is that there was. So we're just talking about George. Sorry, William. Billy, otherwise known as Billy Pierce was she had she had to him Vicky Brooks.

43:27 She ended up becoming. Then she had a child who she adopted out and then in 1957 she had another child that she adopted out. After that she had Victor, Victor Pierce who we will talk about at length next episode. He was born in 1958. After that she had Lex Pierce, who was born in 1960 and following that she had another child in 1961 who again was adopted out. So a total of 6 children to Billy Pierce, but only kept three of them and three were adopted out. That we know of. That we know of, yeah. And even that's there's a little conjecture around one of the boys born to her right?

44:14 Because, yeah, there's, there's no paperwork, Yeah. Right. God only knows what. Actually, I have to say, as we were saying that Kath, she was born like, you know, odd in this and interested in crime, that adrenaline rush, all these sorts of things. She was like born that way. I would desperately we'll never find out. You can't find out. But I would love to know if those three, if any of them took up a life of crime or did they go on to have amazing lives? Are you sure two of them have reestablished contact with her?

44:50 Oh. You're. Kidding. They found her. Yeah. Right. When they were in like adults, young adulthood. Yep. And did they appreciate I? Don't. I don't. Know because there's nothing no out there about. No, I'm just nature versus nurture situation. Like her sister, her and her sister and how they turned out. I really intrigues me. I mean, oh, psychological study on that. Oh. My God, I just, I don't think there'd be enough time in the rest of life to figure that. That one out. No, I just, I think this is a family where you could, I don't know, get some pretty decent information on nature versus nurture maybe.

45:26 Yeah, like really just because out of, I mean. Because there's so many of them. Yeah. I mean, there's seven children that were raised by her. Yeah, out of this 10 and three that weren't just statistically, where are they at? Where are they at? Because I mean, the seven that stayed with her, what is it? Six of them have died. Well, but six of them have criminal records and died and yeah, is. It six. Yeah, No, 55 have died, have they? Oh yeah, no, you're right. It's 55 have died. Yeah. So I just interesting to know whether the other three, what I don't know, just what's their lives like I would love.

46:04 To know, Yeah, I would love to know, Yeah. So let's get back a bit. Oh. Sorry, just before, we'll just finish up in terms of then after having David, sorry, after having the final one that she had adopted out, she met a man by the name of Jimmy Pentagill. Now she never married him, but that is the name that she goes by and that her children go by because she never married him because he already had a wife. And they she the other wife knew about Kath and and and another girlfriend that he had. And Kath didn't care either that there was more than her.

46:34 But she loved him that much that she took his name and her kids took his name. So she has two children to him. Jamie Pettingill, who was born in 1963 and then her youngest child, Trevor Pettigill, who was born in 1965. Sorry. Sorry, Yeah, no, it's 1960. Three sorry, 1963 was when Jane Jane was born and then 1965 Trevor was. Born. That's right. We'll talk about Trevor a lot more next. Week. Yeah, absolutely. Next week's episode as. Well, unfortunately, Jamie passed away from a heroin overdose at the age of 21.

47:04 So he's, there's not a lot of information know about him because he didn't make it very far. No, Yeah. It's pretty pretty. Sad. Yeah. Pretty sad, yeah. So, yeah, out of all the all of her children, obviously I think Jamie had some minimal convictions prior to his heroin overdose. But the other one would be Lex Pierce that we won't really hear about it all in the next two weeks because again, Lex has a very minor criminal record. Yeah, but he sounds like one that kind of got away from from the rest of it.

47:31 But out of so he. Had some petty crimes, it was nothing. Yeah, only petty crimes. There's nothing major on him at all. But yeah, so he didn't get away from it entirely. I'm not saying, but yeah, Lex isn't one who's met worth mentioning again. Yeah. So out of the seven children that have been raised and lived with her over their lives, two of them don't have much for a criminal record, but the other five of them, let's get into that. So we were talking about Dennis. I mean, I guess Dennis probably was the most notorious of her children.

48:03 Well, actually, no, that's not true. The era In the era, Yeah, in that era, Yeah. In the 70s, like earlier on in in the reign of the family, I suppose. He certainly was the most notorious of them. And he was a bad, bad dude. Yeah. He would. So there was, there are stories of him. So he was involved with like bikie gangs and all of that sort of stuff. He cut off the legs of a dead bikie with a chainsaw, put his body in a barrel and threw it into the Yarra. That was the one that kind of got him in the end.

48:35 Yeah. He ended up, that was the one, the one murder that he's linked to that he actually had charges being put to him against. Yeah, Yeah. So that's an interesting Kath. Was the one who just said in. In that case, he was trying to fit this body into the barrel and apparently, Kath said to him, you've just got to wait for the rigor mortis to stop. You know it doesn't last forever, doesn't last. Forever. Just wait and then you'll be able to get him in. No, no, I'll just cut his legs off with the chainsaw.

49:00 Do. You know who he made cut his legs off with the chainsaw. No. Yeah, he's young nephew Jason. Oh my. God. Yeah, so Vicky son, poor boy Jason, he got, he would have been 13 I think at the time. Oh my God. Oh, that's horrific. Oh yeah.

49:26 Oh my God. So evil piece of shit it it doesn't cover. To get Dennis 13 year old nephew. Yeah, Oh my. That just oh, I can't believe that. So he also had he would have girlfriends like kind of thing. And I use that word kind of loosely. Like they were prostitutes he was paying. No, not necessarily, no. So there was one particular girl in this who what would happen is they would have these massive parties. Obviously they would love their parties, but there was one particular and like, she was a model at the time and doing very well in her modelling.

50:00 So she was at this party and she was introduced to Dennis and no, that's all fine. And then the party was ending and she was about to leave and he just stood in front of her and said, well, you're not going anywhere. And she was, well, no, I need to go. I've got to get to a job tomorrow. You know, like I've had a great time, you know, like thanks for the great party, but no, I'm, I'm heading home. You're not going anywhere. She didn't she couldn't leave. He wouldn't allow her to leave. So he kept her prisoner in his house, tied her up, kept her in the bedroom, did horrendous things to her, raped her, sodomized her, beat her, everything known to man.

50:36 She ended up being there for two years. Over the course of those two years, she would attempt escape. One notable time she did get out the front of the that was in Richmond, in the house in Richmond and she got out to a main road and flagged down a cabbie and was about to get in the cabbie in the cab when she had three guns being pointed at her head by minions of Dennis who had chased her down. To which the cabbie knowing because I mean, that was so notorious, like who was around the area. The cabbie looked at this and went I do not want to be involved in this and took off.

51:14 And then so then she was taken back to the house and started all over again. She did survive, but she to this day, when in interviews that she's done, talks about the fact that she believes she's the only one of Dennis's girlfriends to have survived. Yeah, I know of one girlfriend who I believe was a prostitute, but it was a similar situation where he essentially kidnapped her and she somehow died. I don't know the manner of her death in particular, but Dennis wanted to get rid of her body, so he had.

51:47 I think it was actually his nephew. He sent his nephew down to the Yarra. I know. So that wasn't a girlfriend, That was just a worker at the brothel. Oh, was it? Yeah. Yeah, She was one of their girls at the brothel. That worked for Kath, right? So she'd overdosed and Kath had called Dennis to come and help her. Right. So in all of this, because there was so much drugs around, like all of this, obviously Dennis had actually that he'd concocted his own method of bringing them back to life, having an overdose.

52:15 And so it was like a combination of alcohol and heroin, I want to say. Yeah. And basically, he would inject that through the jugular, right? Yeah. To bring them back. So give them a jolt to come back right when they would overdose, which sounds like what the fuck. But he had taught Kath how to do this and everything. And but this girl had, you know, overdosed and he. So she's calling Dennis to come and help. So she's not dead, though. Like they were like going to, she was like getting Dennis to come and help her, like carry her out to her to somewhere to get her to a hospital to get help.

52:46 That was her. She loved her job and she loved the girls who worked for her. They all said that she was actually a very great Madam or whatever. You, you know, they they really did like her in that sense that she protected them. But yeah, Dennis came in, took one look at her and went, Nah, Nah, not going to help. So yeah, he sent Jason down to the Yarra River, run down there and grab a bucket of water out of the Yarra and come back. And he brought that bucket back. And Dennis then slowly filled this into his like, opened her mouth up and made her swallow all this water and then drowned her in the bucket with the remaining water.

53:21 So that yeah, and killed her. Well, then they tossed her body in the Yara so that when she was fished out, they whoever the autopsy autopsy would show that she had water in her lungs. So they would assume the cause of her death was drowning. Yeah. But then he would also give heroin overdoses to other people and just leave them in the streets with the with the needle hanging out of their arm. Yeah. So that, again, when they were found, they'd be like, oh, well, they've overdosed. It's innocent, but it's not.

53:46 He'd actually killed these. People. Yeah, Hotshot. Yeah. So but it's interesting, like, why he did that to that girl at that point, Like other times he would revive people from that. Like, he concocted a way to revive people. Yeah, like, kind of thing that he didn't think, oh, well, we'll do that. There's something not quite right in his brain of like, I'll give this a go. I wanna try that out. Very sadistic. Very much so, yeah. To give another right, another sort of story with Kath, Kath was there one day when Dennis was killing somebody, an associate of theirs who had obviously done wrong by them in their eyes.

54:19 And Kath basically said to Dennis, oh, hold on a minute before you get him too messy. Can I just take his pants because I think they'll fit Jamie, Yeah.

54:31 Let's. Take his pants. Off. Oh, she's such a good mother. Yeah. Well, waste not, want not. God, Oh, they're just whole other level. I have to say another thing that I did sort of find, and it links back to another case that we have covered on this podcast before. Yeah, so obviously being in this crime world, you need a damn good lawyer, right? Who was Dennis's lawyer? Andrew Fraser, you may remember that name being. Mentioned Yes, you've spoken about Andrew Fraser. Before, in the case of Peter Falconio, he was the lawyer who took up Bradley Murdoch's case of saying that he was actually innocent and not and shouldn't be in prison.

55:17 Now Dennis's lawyer was Andrew Fraser of all people. Now I just can't with that. He he does. He does a short clip I've seen on YouTube. Yes, I've seen this and runs. Through some, you know, stories that he has around being his lawyer and the sorts of things that he witnessed. And I get it that as a lawyer, like you're, yeah, you're a witness to these things. But then there's client lawyer privilege, all these things that you're not going to go necessarily running off to the cops, but I just can't understand how you would want to be involved in all of that and and defend these people.

55:52 I really can't come at it. He seemed to really, he was pleasurably telling people about these incredible stories of Dennis gunning down people in the street, you know, and another one where he had come out, he'd been, he'd rocked up to Dennis house and then Dennis had come out going, there's cops watching us. So he'd gone back inside and grabbed out an AR15 and come out to the street and just started shooting down this very fairly Main St. in Richmond. And so this day you can find gun like bullet holes in buildings down the road.

56:31 And they were, the cops were sitting in that building watching him. But he shot at it, you know, randomly with these and yeah, these gun, the bullet holes are still in the building. Insane. He could have killed anyone. He was in that drug fueled state of just gonna fire a gun around everywhere and that and your lawyer's standing right there with him and witnessing this. Oh, interesting character. It was a completely different time as well, I think. You know, he was almost untouchable, wasn't he?

57:04 Yes, but his lawyer made him that way too. Like he, he manipulated. That, But everyone fed him to him in that way. Yeah. Everyone he associated with and all of the interactions he had, the people he surrounded with himself with, all were in that. All were as culpable. Yeah. Of those things. Yeah, I just, I find it this Andrew Fraser to me is a character who took great, great pleasure and to, you know, to the day of his death, basically loved to sort of shout from the hilltops of how much, how good a lawyer he was for keeping a very guilty person out of jail and finding every loophole possible to keep him out of jail.

57:42 Exactly like it's that doesn't make you a good guy, you know, sorry, that just makes you to me just as culpable. He's witnessed. It makes you a big piece of shit. Total piece of shit. He's witnessed the crimes that his clients committed and and he's probably been. Really. Incredibly dangerous person, yeah. That's it. Another one is so it is thought it is maybe thought to be known that Dennis killed between 6 and 13 people. I've heard it in 15. That we know of, yeah, right. Yeah, I think, think about all these overdoses of people.

58:16 This is in the streets in Melbourne. Mm hmm. It's, I think the number is. It's, I mean it is, it's quantifiable. 10's and 10s of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of people if you look impacted distribution. Yeah, absolutely impacted. By him. But I mean, even his his cronies, you know, offering whoever pissed them off or there wasn't pay the bill or didn't whatever. One particular stage he was he'd got some really, really good quality heroin, right? So he'd given it to his cronies and he literally did have like this group of people that he like called them like his army or his something as well to like this minions that he had like that would work for him.

58:50 And he said he passed it off to them to cut basically so that it's now, so it becomes like a break it down. And I don't fully understand the drug system, but basically cut it down something so that it doesn't, it's not something that's going to kill you like so you can actually. Yes, so you're able to get pure heroin from somewhere that needed to be cut. Yeah. And so, yeah, he got them all to cut it, but they didn't do it enough. And so literally then following day, there were five people in the surrounding area of their house where they'd cut it out, who were found dead from overdoses.

59:24 Yeah. So you can't tell me that he's not like, culpable for that. Absolutely, Yeah. So there's just five people in one day. Yeah, dead. So that's not that's not included in this time. No, that's not that. That's it. So he's. Done that he's done publicly, and he did a lot of his murders publicly. Oh, absolutely. So he killed a man by the name of Wayne Stanhope. Yes. They were at a party at their home in Richmond, and he asked Stanhope to go and change the record on the record player. Yeah. And as Stanhope got up and was walking towards the record player, Dennis shot him in the back.

59:58 Yeah. He then, excuse me, He then shot another 5 bullets into his head at point blank range. Yeah. He then goes. And gets Jamie, his nephew to get who who was a teenager at the time and had a gun, another six rounds from Jamie's gun into into Stanhope's head. He then slit his throat just for good measure. Now he was dead, as dead. Could be before that. Too. Like, truly. Yeah, I think the second shot killed him right it. Was way overkill. Yeah, way, way well and truly. But he was fucking off his nut and.

1:00:36 This is in front of a a room full of people. Yeah. And that was that was Kath's biggest concern about it. Like, you know, that's. Biggest concern was that he went to get went next door, 'cause Kath was living next door obviously at the time and he went and got a vacuum cleaner to like vacuum up all the bristle like a. Little bit of brain. So Kath was just pissed off 'cause that was a brand new vacuum cleaner. Ruined it, ruined it. He had to get rid of it 'cause it had, you know, evidence in it then.

1:01:01 He had to burn it. MMM yeah, it's a brand new vacuum cleaner. For fun. Oh, why ruin the vacuum cleaner, Dennis? Oh my God, they're just the most bottom feeders. I just can't he. He was really bloody awful. So I don't think he was. He was never convicted of that because no one would speak. There's, you know, it's the rule of all of this that you don't then go running to the cops because then you're dead, too. Like, that's literally how this works. They would keep people quiet for the fact of they just literally had that much power that if it wasn't Dennis who killed you because he was sitting in a cell, there was plenty more Penny Gills to come.

1:01:38 That's it. Yeah. There was that many of them that you had no chance one of them would pop you. And they really did rule, particularly Richmond as a suburb in Richmond alone, with all the money he had come in from the heroin, it's thought that he owned about 40 buildings. Yeah, he in out of these buildings. He either would just, he'd run his, you know, heroin trade out of 1. He had a whole, his whole street. He'd buy up all the properties out of that street sort of stuff. So God, you wouldn't want to live there if you'd be moving out anyway if they started moving in Cath.

1:02:08 Tells a story of one day she sent him out to the shops to get something and he came back and he'd been gone for like 3 house, but that was just because he'd bought a house. Yeah, God bought another house in the street. Yeah, yeah. I wonder like, yeah, you would be more than willing to sell if you were living. In that wouldn't want to be where he was wanting to be. No way. No. If nothing more, you could potentially you would more than likely be collateral damage. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yuck. Horrible.

1:02:37 So one of the cops that we were talking about earlier in terms of were on the take with him was a very famous cop in Australia being Roger Rogerson was also linked to Dennis at a time he was actually charged with being with Dennis's heroin ring in terms of taking. He was involved in the import of the heroin. The the charges were dropped eventually, but his name was is definitely linked to his as well. Yeah. We need to do Roger Rogerson. I think he's on our list. He's on the list. It's one we keep kind of, I think going, oh, it's a big one.

1:03:13 It's a big. One, it's so many facets. Where do you start? So many facets. But yeah, Roger Rogerson, if you don't, if you haven't heard of him before, like look him up. But we'll get to him too. Like, there's a lot on him. A lot. Yeah. And I couldn't work out whether or not because I wasn't, didn't have the time to like, look up dates and marry it up. But I don't know. He could have potentially still been a cop whilst that was going on. I believe so. Yeah, I believe so. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I guess where's Kath now?

1:03:38 Like what's happened to her in her later life. Yes. So she actually lives down in Venus Bay, which. Is like sort of coastal. Town coastal town in Victoria. She's got ordinary 3 grandchildren who she often babysits so I think they're Vickies kids. Her daughter Vicky's kids also. Well, they'd be fairly grown now. They are now, but I think back, you know. In the early, Yeah, You know, she probably moved there in the 90s. Did she? Well, she was aged 58 when she sort of got out of this, right? Yeah, Probably.

1:04:09 Yeah. Yeah. So she was, you know, involved in her grandchildren's lives like most nice, nice grandparents. She's still picking around down there in Venus Bay and well known by the locals and they, they steer clear but say that she lives a very fine, fine life. And they, they, you know, actually to the point of she's been given an award by the Victorian Government for, for her community work. Yeah, she does. Like helps that old like old age. Yeah, she drives them to drive bingo games and stuff, and she's been given a community award for Can You?

1:04:43 Even believe. That I'm sorry, I can't. Comment I just think that's a. You've got to take it all. Out some prior effect. That's right. The prior offences preclude you from a community award. Yeah. I mean, good on Earth for doing it. You know, that's great. And, you know, giving back, that's a good thing. I mean, because we should say, like, Kath has spent time in jail. She's never done massive time, but she's been in and out of jail for short stints over, you know, smaller things the cops have been able to get her on.

1:05:10 Yeah, you know, stabbing people or whatever along the way, just stabbing things. So, yeah. But she's, oh, she's an interesting character entirely. And one thing I I love this. So there's a movie, Animal Kingdom. And if you have not seen that movie, go and see it like it's on. I think it's on Prime at the moment. I think it's on Prime. Yeah. So check it out if it's a very good movie. And she is depicted in it. So it's not it's not factual in that it doesn't. They'd name different things there. But it's very loosely based around the this, the Pettingill family.

1:05:45 Yeah. And God, now I'm a mental blank of who played Jackie Weaver. Thank you. Plays Kath. She won an Academy. She won an Academy Award for it, but Kath doesn't think that she played her very well at all now. I think she did a did a complimentary, yeah. I know she did a yeah, she did a no, I did. She did her a solid. I think so too. Catherine said that the only the only similarity between the two of us is we have both have blonde hair. But the movie is kind of from the her grandson's perspective.

1:06:17 Yeah. And it's a really interesting take on well, I mean, it's based on it's there are loosely based. Yeah, there's a lot of, there's not factual things, right? Yeah. And yeah, but. You kind of get a gist. Of you do get a gist of. Lives must have been like. Definitely it does. It definitely depicts a a realistic version of what living in this house, in this in this family could have looked like Yeah, but Oh well. And and I think the the attitudes. Come across. Yeah, I think that's what it is. It's a.

1:06:47 Yeah, it's a two yeah, but there's definitely non factual and they kind of combine characters into one like because there's Yeah, it's an interesting take, but definitely well worth a watch. Very, very good movie regardless. Yeah, worth a watch for. As we said at the start of this, there are untold numbers of stories that involve these people. So if you want to know more about it, I know again, we we mentioned this every, almost in every Australian case, but Andrew Rule his life and crimes podcast covered this in several different episodes from several different angles, which was really, really well done.

1:07:22 Yeah, him and Sylvester's God. What's his name? Jesus. John Sylvester. Sylvester. Thank you. Yeah, the two of them read wrote a book together, Lead Belly, which is a very good read, and the Pennygills are mentioned quite thoroughly through that. That's it. And there's a book called The Matriarch who was written by a man named Adrian Tame. And he actually had Cath's input in this book, Yes. So he's kind of really good friends with Cath these days, and he's a really interesting guy and very interesting to listen to, Yes.

1:07:53 But if you wanna know more about things from Cath's perspective, I suppose with the right amount of overtone in terms of the severity and just how impactful all of these crimes were to people, have a read of his book too. Yeah, that's a good one. I've only read excerpts from it through that, getting this through this process because. But it's definitely a book I'd go back and read from beginning to end, to be really honest. It's it's fabulous. Me too. I guess what we should also talk about then is Dennis's demise in this.

1:08:23 So we, we get to a time for him where his health declined pretty rapidly. He was, as we said earlier, he there was a particular death that he was linked to. Now he was already talking to cops and what he was, he was an informant, it turned out, with the cops, but he doesn't. Believe. No. And The thing is the way he would inform with the cops was that he would like murder someone and then he would go to the cops and say, I know who did that. That would have been so and so 'cause this they, they didn't like him and This is why that would have happened.

1:09:00 And but the person he was pointing the finger at was someone else he wanted to get rid of. So, but he would do it so well that these, this other bloke could end up getting done for, for murder. Yeah, that he didn't do. And it was Dennis who did it, but it took the eye off of him. The cops would follow every lead that he would give them. And and look, worked both ways for them. They were, they were taking a crim off the street. They knew he was a crim. They knew he didn't really do it. They'd know it was Dennis like kind of thing, but they'd get that that guy off the street.

1:09:26 So there was a lot of murders where he and and other crimes that he would point at other people that he actually did. So yeah, this he was informing to the cops, which is a no no in cats world big time. So that's why, yeah, she would be adamant he never did that. So. She is, although I think eventually she did concede that he did it, but yeah, and she wasn't happy about. It no, that would really not go well for her. Like she just would not appreciate that totally. But then we did get to a point where there was enough evidence to point to the fact that he did kill this guy that we talked about earlier.

1:10:00 And I know that his name is again on my brain is a sieve. He was linked to the Hells Angel bikie gang and well, actually he was the ex president of the Hells bikie gang. And so he'd been kicked out of Hells out the Hells Angels. He was no longer the president. But yeah, he had, Dennis had definitely killed him. He'd put him in the barrel, all these things. And there were enough witnesses and things that they had had him. So they were charging him with that. So finally he was going to go down for it.

1:10:25 He was definitely going to get get time for this. However, his health declined rapidly all and so he was on so many drugs. He was taking speed with his actual drug that he took over the heroin. And So what happened was he ended up dying of heart failure. But it was so bad that, I mean, I've heard things of like, hit bits of his heart were literally crumbling into his chest cavity. Like that's how bad it was. That too and and like some of the heart tissue was found in his arteries and was clogging his arteries.

1:10:57 And he ended up dying stroke, wasn't it like at first, first he had a stroke and then so he was in hospital with that. So he was only 37 at the time. Yeah. And this happened in 1987 when he died. Yeah. He was awaiting trial for that murder. Yes, the time. But he did go to jail. He committed a heinous, heinous rape, yes, in 1973 that he was convicted for. And yeah, I think he only. Served. He only served four months, four or five months. Years No 4. Years. No, he did do 4/4 to five years, OK, roughly.

1:11:30 He did get sentenced 10. That's right, but. He got out after four or five years, yes. Yeah, Yep, you're. Right. He actually, that was another one where he had kidnapped multiple women. I want to say him and Peter Allen at the time. It was his brother at the time the two of them were convicted. Peter did far more time because there was something else linked to his charges. But yeah, but Dennis did do only about four to five years for that, which was so woefully not. Enough for what he did, Absolutely.

1:11:59 Yeah, so he, he got out pretty early on that one. So yeah, they all, they've all done time, but just not extensive time because. Aside from Peter Allen. Yeah, he did like he. Did the most amount of time. He did 28 years. 28 Sorry, yes. 28 you're. Right. And out of all of the Pettingill clan, he's the one who spent the most amount of time in jail. Yes, he did some. He did a lot, actually. He did a lot of armed robberies I think was his shtick. Right. Armed robbery was his shtick and he was considered one of Victoria's most dangerous men.

1:12:33 But they all. Though, But this is it. I'm kind of going, well, what about tennis? But this is it. I mean, they were all this. I mean, I mean the level of the crime that they were committing is just out of hand. And I'll say it here because we'll repeat this again and the next one again. They would definitely gangland people like this was, you know, they are gangsters. That's the a way to describe them for sure. Sure. We'll get into why that's relevant next. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, wow. Crazy. Oh, yeah.

1:13:07 Anyway, should we leave it here for now? And we'll pick up again next week. We'll focus more on the Walsh St. Yeah shootings and really, Victor Pierce, Victor. Pierce is 1. 20 Oh, she's an interesting one. Oh yeah. All right, stay tuned for next week. If you like what we do, you can follow us on all of our socials. So we've got TikTok, Facebook, and Instagram, and you're more than welcome to buy us a coffee you would like at buymeacoffee.com/two Crime Besties. Or join us over on Patreon where you get a bonus episode every month where we just chat about whatever it is that you want us to.

1:13:46 And it's $5 a month. And you can join us over there at patreon.com/twocrime Besties. Yeah, we love our little crew over there. We're starting to wrap that up a bit more, so come and join us. Absolutely. Thank you everyone for joining us. And we'll stay curious, crying besties. Bye.