Episode 61 - Margaret and Seana Tapp

0:14 Welcome back, crime besties, Here we are for another episode. I feel like this week has gone so quickly and we're here again recording. Oh, absolutely. I hear you on that. No joke, this week has just disappeared with a bunch of an eye. Yeah, I totally. I think I've said this in last episode that one of my work colleagues and listener of our podcast, she said that as soon as you get into the Bay, our mum said just rolls on. And yeah, this week, if this week's anything to go by, she's absolutely right.

0:43 Swear to God it was Friday of last week. Yesterday I had no joke. I know I feel like what, even when I was setting up this morning, I'm like, no, like it feels like am I have I got the day right? Yeah, yeah. Even Lucas said to me yesterday he's like mum when I woke up this morning. I had to say to myself, Thursday. And I'm like, oh, why? And he's like, because I, I was very confused what day it was. Yeah. Thursday. You for that, Lucas? Yeah. Can you do that? Can you send that message to me each morning?

1:14 Yeah. Literally. I'm at the moment waking up, going what day is it? It's Monday. No, it's fucking Thursday. Like, you know, it's it's that bad. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, there's so much going on, it's insane. But I don't think that helps. I think for me, this week's been really odd because we've kind of, we've only got one last sporting game tomorrow, yeah. So the rest of the sports have stopped for at least two or three, four weeks maybe. I think it's actually yeah, 4 like a while. So we've got.

1:42 No training, nothing like that. Which is so. Nice. Oh, it's been so. And then I've also my eldest has been at camp this week. How quiet. Is your house house is so. Quiet, but I do really miss him. I can't wait to see him this afternoon. He'll be so feral, feral. Absolutely gross. Absolutely gross. I. Can't stink now, now that like, you know, they're like that age. Yeah. I think that's that's now level of, you know, oh, you're gonna, you're gonna stink a bit when you get home. Yeah, I'll never forget that.

2:09 I remember that's really a year 7 or year 8 getting in the car after school camp and we were gone like a week though and we literally camped camped ohh So I remember getting the car and my mum just going ohh God the windows down. Windows down and you're getting in the shower the second Yeah through that, yeah, yeah. Well, at least they have showers at this camp, whether or not they use. Them I don't know for how long. In fact, yeah, exactly. Just get the the bodies wet. But Oliver's very like, he's very clean and very about like, yeah, I I know he'll have a shower every day.

2:40 He won't be able to not. No, he's a very clean Yeah, and he's got. Good like, you know, he had to actually because they weren't allowed to take any kind of spray deodorant, which is fair, I think yes. Can you imagine the sting of that place if they're allowed are? You going everywhere? So and he only has spray so he had to go up and get get himself. Oh well it took him bloody and I honestly it took him like 10 minutes to choose which scent he might like. So I feel like smell wise he'll probably be semi OK, but the exhaustion, he's just going to be foul.

3:11 Yeah, yeah. The deodorant aisle now with young boys, it's hilarious. I've got, you know, Mason who's like, knows what he wants, just wants to roll on like, yeah, it just, it needs to fit the purpose. Yes, we need that. And that's no extravagant, no fragrant, No, you know, Yeah. And then there's my Brody. He'll stand there for bloody 10/15/20 minutes, kind of like that one. Just hold that one. I'm just gonna just, I'm gonna check these ones now. And I want to, like future. I need to take a bloody can of coffee with me so we can change the smell.

3:40 Some coffee beans.

3:44 That's actually not the worst idea. I'm surprised he hasn't asked you to do. He would too. Yeah, he. Would like no no, I need to choose a new fragrant Oliver's super into their Lynx Golden mango and it actually does smell really nice. Oh, I can tell you right now that just the fact of the name Golden Mango, Yeah, already be into it entirely already on to me saying when can I start having mango in my lunch box for, you know, maybe when I went to That's Lotto. Yeah, it's still a bit off before they're $2.00 of mango, although strawberries are cheap again.

4:12 Yes, thank God, but he won't eat them in his lunch box. He'll devour them at home if I put them in his lunch box. Do you think you'll I can eat them? Oh, come on. Head in that shit like where the stuff they eat at home but not in a lunch box. Yeah, I don't. Understand that 10? That's annoying. That's really annoying. I sent Lucas to school today with a lunch order. So subway. Subway Friday. We wish my kids had ate that, Yeah. Oh, don't, don't get, don't get confused. He literally just has ham and.

4:38 Cheese. Oh, that's it. But it's no cheap one, I find. Yeah, compared to the other one that we do at our school like that can get ecsy. Yeah, my kids don't really like the other one because. So our school doesn't have a canteen. No, no. So they don't even even do. I don't think many do, no. So they have to bring in the food from an external company and they, my boys reckon it's gross. I reckon it'd be cold. And yeah. And I can't even my kids kill for a lunch order. Yeah, but it's the same thing. Every time when we were looking at high schools with Oliver, yeah, we went to this particular school and I was like, oh, I'm coming here.

5:12 I've had a couple. We walked past. We walked. They all have have these canteens and they do always take you past the canteen because that's obviously very important for the kids. Yeah, for the kids. And Oliver was like, oh, mom, they have Japanese Curry, got it, chicken, whatever else they had. And he's like, I really. Do they do Rama? I'm assuming they would. I'm assuming they would. He's like, I really want to come here. Let's just see if this is the right school in other ways. Oh Jesus, we'll see.

5:38 Oh, love. That's one thing K Pop Demon Hunters has done great for my family is that now Brody will eat ramen noodles. Like in a cup thing. Yeah, because, Because the hunt tricks. They yeah, those. So that put their name on them. That has gotta be a merch grab. Like they when are they gonna release those? Acts are. They're gonna. They're gonna. Oh, they're coming for sure. Oh. I'll buy them. Yeah. Hello. I'm here for it. It is so good. It's farm fleetest. Peter was telling me the other day that whoever originally was going to buy K Pop Demon Hunters was like, Oh yeah, now they decided not to.

6:10 Oh, they had the. Rights for it they. Sold the rights to it to Netflix for $100 million. Yeah, right. And it has just obviously it's exploded and it's, you know, many multiple times of that finance. There's gonna be more of them. Yeah. So yeah. Oh God, I love it. All of the the the theories of what's gonna happen next. Yeah, I'm all in. I'm all in. Are you? I haven't done the deep dive into that yet, but last night, because Ollie was on Cam, I said to Lucas, look, we can do something special the two of us, because Peter was out.

6:42 Yeah. And he's like, can we just have dinner and watch K pop demon hunters in bed? And I'm like, sold. Yeah, I'm so for that. So for that. So it was really cute. So I have to watch it and then we get to the soda pop theme and obviously it's like pause, pause. I need to get my stuff together. And already comes out with, you know, he's got to pull out every dance move like as in front of the TV, he doesn't look at the screen and he knows every move to that dance and pulls it out. And I have to record it and.

7:08 You haven't sent that one to me yet. I haven't I I. Haven't had I haven't had a soda pop yet. Oh, apparently so. They've put it to put together a little Sarjo Brothers group, Yes. And yeah. You know what Lucas's character is in that. Is he baby? No. Oh, who is he? So Brody is Gino. Yeah. And Lucas is Abby. Oh, Abby, Because he's got the best ABS. Apparently he. Actually, does. He does. Oh, that's so. Funny. Perfect. Oh. That is so funny. I love it. Oh, he didn't tell me that. Yeah, I knew they'd put it together, but I didn't realize they'd a sign.

7:46 Oh yeah, they'd a sign character. Sign characters? Oh, there's no question, apparently. Oh, right, you have no question, of course. Oh, that is gorgeous. I love it. All right, let's get. On. I know we could chat for ages. We have so many shout outs today so thank you to everybody. We have had a real bumper Instagram comment sort of thing this week, yeah. And I just want to do a really. I think it's Instagram's taking over because Tik Tok's just dying at the moment. The algorithm has completely ruined me at the moment, but I don't.

8:17 Know I far out we never you never know when they change no, you just gotta keep going with it. But our Instagram has been doing really really well yeah and I just want to shout out Rue under score Lindsay Yep who has been commenting liking so many of our posts. I feel like maybe she just found us and he's going through, like, past, you know, finding it all. Yeah. So shout out to you, Rue. Lindsay, if you are listening, I know you at least follow us on on Insta. And then we've had five new Patreons this week.

8:50 So thank you very, very much to Angela, Sarah Worthington, Lisa Battistello, Kira Alinta, and Peter. Thank you for for joining us over there on Patreon. We have released our first episode over there and we're just actually after today, we're going to have a chat about what our next episode will be. So yeah, if you guys have any suggestions, anything you want to hear from us, please let us know because that's your space. We will. We will be guided by you guys there. Please let us know. Current reviews are quite very positive.

9:21 Like so. Very nice feedbacks as great guys. Yes, thank you. We've also had some coffees bought for us this week by Leanne Lydon and I don't know. Yeah, sorry. Leanne Lydon, Samantha Hart, Lisa Marie. So I don't know if Lisa Marie is also the same Lisa who signed the Patreon, I believe. So double thanks, Lisa. That's really kind. Really kind, really, really kind. Thank you. And then our last. I think she's the one that we're we're getting her through with her new 3 month old baby like that. She's listening to us whilst doing all that and we've been there and we feel it.

9:55 We know. Actually, you know, when I had a three month old, that's when I listened to the teachers. Yes, yeah. So I get it. And in those middle of the night feeds, like, what do you do? You're sitting in darkness. Absolutely. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I remember those days. And then to Fiona Wilton, who has sent us the most gorgeous message as well, saying that that, you know, she basically she was describing her life and how it aligns with our chaotic lives. And she really related to the stuff that we talk about.

10:27 And then we sent or Meg sent her back a message saying like, you really do sound like our people just by what she'd written. And she was like, Oh my God, I wish I was one of your people. Well, you know what Fiona you are. One of join the besties you're here you're here we love it and. Thank you for your support and thank you to everybody who's shared our podcast as well. We know I can tell by the stats this week that we've actually got a fair few new listeners by the looks of it. So thank you very, very much and welcome to all of those of you who are new to.

10:57 The besties. Absolutely. Thanks for joining us. That's amazing. All right, this one's a good one. Yeah, this is a, it's a very interesting case. Now, I think before we even get started, well, we're talking today about Mark, the murder, murders of Margaret and Shawna Tapp. I think I need to say at the very beginning of this, Andrew Rule, yes, is the foremost person, yeah, point person on this case. So he's a reporter, A journalist, and he has his podcast is called Life and Crimes with Andrew Rule, right Podcast, brilliant podcast.

11:37 He's an I just love him. I just love him. Yeah. But he was actually a a police reporter at the time. This this murder took place in 1984. He was a a police reporter at the time and he said that he did cover the story, but he said there were five that he can find in the archives. There were five stories. I think even when it first happened, he wasn't at a level of writing these articles, that kind of thing. I think he wrote, he wrote later. He came a bit later. Well, he wrote at the time. He wrote like a little blurb, he said of the things that were written.

12:11 It wouldn't have even fit a fool's cap page over 5 little articles. A little appear it was in the media about it. Like, yeah, in newspapers. Yeah. And it wasn't until the 20 year anniversary of the death of these women, of this woman and child and little girl, that he really became interested in it. And that sort of prompted him to do a a much longer form case on it and report on it. And then this was actually the the case was the first thing that he recorded for his Life and Crimes podcast. It wasn't the first one that he put out, but it was the first one that he recorded.

12:44 Yes. And this case really has a a real special spot in his heart. I think so, yeah. Well, because it's unsolved, we can say that at this point. Absolutely. Yeah. So I mean, I think it's really intrigued him of like, well, why isn't it solved? What's what's held it back and can can we find something here? So yeah, yeah. I mean, all props to him, like to, you know, really put some attention on it because, yeah, it hasn't had the attention it deserves to try and get a result. And surely someone knows something.

13:11 Yeah. And I feel like like there's not a lot of other media who've even given this the light of day. We can get kind of get into that a little bit later on. Yeah, Yeah. But it's, it's really his story, I feel. So Yeah, please. Yeah. Jump across on, jump across on to Latin Crimes after you finish listening to this. And yeah. And then really give it a listen because yeah, I just love everything he puts out. Oh, so good. He's he's a really great source of information. And he's just, he's so easy to listen to.

13:40 Like memory. Oh, yeah. Phenomenal. Yeah. I, I just, I it blows my mind. He blows my mind. I think, and again, I think something I relate to with him and his podcast too, is he's a journalist and and everything, but he does not his his his podcasts aren't or don't appear to be scripted. As you say, his memory is amazing. You know, he has absolute genuine knowledge of these crimes and just speaks to them. So his podcast really, I don't know, just really because that's why we do ours the way we do in terms of like the non scripted.

14:09 We really wanted something out there that wasn't as scripted as many others and that's why why we chose to do that. But I I relate to him as he's an unscripted format too. Like great, easier to listen to I find. Yeah, he's, he's awesome. Yeah. All right, so this let's get into it, Yeah. Let's get in SO. Margaret Christine Nelson was born on the 3rd of June in 1949 and she was born to her mum and dad, Mr. and Mrs. Nelson. I actually can't remember their names off the top of my head. I've got them written down somewhere.

14:41 We'll get to it. But she was born into a really lovely, loving family. She had a sister and a brother and just grew up in like a very typical 40s, fifties sort of era Australia, like, you know, Australian sort of family. They were very close and remained close throughout throughout their lives. Margaret met a man by the name of Don Tap sort of, you know, later in or actually I think she was pretty quite young when she met him. They fell in love and got married and they had a son named Justin who was, I think he was born in 1970.

15:22 And then they had a little girl named Shauna Lee Tapp born on the 6th of March in 1975. And they lived in a very comfortable life together. But as time went on, Margaret and Don did split. It was a very amicable split I believe. And they still kept in very regular contact. The kids had regular contact with Don and you know, it was just sort of venue normal. Now was was this sort of split marriage and and that sort of arrangement. They so but at the time of the murder. So the murders occurred on the 7th of August in 1984.

16:10 Yep. This time of like thinking back to Australia at in 1984. Why are you looking at me like that before I was born? What was it? Oh, right. I probably can't comment to it, but would you like to? Well, well, I what if I was old enough to remember? I guess I would have been 3, but I mean having said that, the area that this this occurred in is very local to us. I mean more so probably these days I guess then when I was, you know where where we grew up initially. But the area, it's very outer eastern suburbia.

16:45 It's right at the base of the Dandenong's furniture gully and all these sort of scenes that we'll talk about through this very picturesque kind of area. I guess in some ways, you know, at the bottom of the Dandenong's there really beautiful. But like at the time it was growing. It was a growth area, very much middle class, lower socioeconomic status, like kind of area of like family, young families pushing. The outskirts of the city limits as well at that time, I believe. So in terms of like development through there, yeah, it was yes, sort of at that outer edge of of Melbourne we're.

17:19 Talking about, you know, city limits, the growth, that area too. I mean, Margaret, Margaret's parents, they were so the original all of that area was originally Orchards. So I remember from where I live, even I lived as a kid, that was all even further in was was orchards. It was a vast area and her parents actually original settlers to the the area and they had actually, they actually owned orchard farms in the area. So they had been there, you know, generationally. So, you know, that's they, they still owned a fairly decent property in the area, but everything had been divvied up on those lands and, you know, and we're now becoming housing estates.

17:53 Yeah. So I mean, the, it was, yeah, a really growth area. I guess, you know, now we're moving further out again. You know, you think of the similar sort of area these days would be I guess more your sort of packing of packing of Cranbourne areas sort of thing. That's further out again. But you know, that would that's what Ferntree Gully in that area would have been at the time. Yeah, Yeah. So new housing estates and things popping up and yeah, really families making a go of. It, and that's what I was going to say.

18:18 I think it attracted a lot of young families, people who are just starting to establish themselves. Obviously, it was a bit cheaper to be that sort of that bit further out into these new areas. So, but then having said that, I feel like the Dandenongs was always quite well established, yes. And so there was still a lot going on out there in that respect. Other train lines, all that sort of stuff by that stage and that's things like that. It's all, yeah, all the public transport was sort of sorted and was there.

18:43 Yeah, for sure. Yeah. So I guess we'll get into actually what happened. On the night and and. We'll go from there. So on this particular night, Margaret had agreed, or had actually invited a friend of hers, a man by the name of Jim Rowlands, to take her to the opera. Now, Margaret was an incredible woman, an absolutely incredible woman. I'm just getting to a little bit of a background about her actually, before we get into this, because I think this just gives a bit of an idea of who she was. Who she was, yeah, for.

19:15 Sure, she was a nurse, and she was actually at the time studying law part time. At Monash Uni. At Monash, her idea was to go into sort of medical malpractice law because she obviously would then have the experience with the medical side and then. Great idea. Great. Yeah. Incredible idea. Yeah she was such an intelligent and she's such a go getter of a woman. She was learning how to drive semi trailers because an ex-boyfriend of hers, actually her there, they owned a, some kind of crop farm in South Australia.

19:48 And over the summer she'd offered to go and help them, I don't know, truck their crops to wherever they needed to go. Yeah. So she needed to learn how to drive a semi trailer. So a semi truck, semi trailer. So she was learning that. Yeah. She was involved in lots and lots of different sort of like community things. And she had a lot of. Men interested in her, she was very social and she was very much like into maybe the dating scene and. She kept her options open. You go. Well, yes, she did. She did have her eye on one particular man, but we'll get to him in a minute.

20:27 Yeah. So, yeah, her life was very rich and very full. And then obviously, she also had her two children who took up a lot of her time. At the time of the murder, though, her son Justin was actually living with her parents. Yeah. And did you find out why? No, I didn't. No, I couldn't find any reason as to why. What that? Just I just wondered whether it was like maybe he was closer to their high school or something. I really. Don't know because I didn't live far away from her it wasn't there was a distance thing of like oh he wants to particularly be at a particular school or whatever straight away.

21:00 Not sure and yeah I mean he's. That's a tragic story in itself, then. Yeah, it. Really is. Yeah. So anyway, he wasn't obviously at the home in Kelvin, Dr. Ferntree Gully at the time. But on this particular day, this man by the name of Jim Rollins, he was a Carpenter, apparently, a very, very lovely man. Yeah. Jim and his wife were actually neighbors of Don and Margaret when they were married and lived together. And so that's how how they met. And Don was keen on Margaret. I think so, Jim. Sorry, Jim.

21:37 Sorry. Yeah. Sorry, Jim. By this stage, Jim's wife had long passed away from cancer, which is very, very sad. But yeah, so he decided. I mean, they used to see each other socially. I don't think they were in a relationship by any stretch. I think he might have wanted to, yeah. But I don't think Margaret was really in that frame of mind with him at the time. But she was, I think all props to her like that, you know, if someone was offering like, you know, opera tickets and things are to take her out, she wasn't gonna go, oh, no, I'm not interested.

22:07 I'm not gonna go. She's like, yeah, sure, let's go. Like, yeah, she just was that covering opportunity that came her way. And why not? Like, yeah. Yeah, so that night she'd actually arranged for Shawna to go to the next door neighbors, his house, to be babysat while she went out to the opera. Cuz at this stage Shawna was only 9 years of age. And so Jim knocks on the door at I think it was like 630 or something. In the evening. In the evening to pick her up and he there's no answer now Margaret's car was in the driveway.

22:38 He could see the newspaper was on the front doorstep and he was like, oh, this is really weird because he was she was expecting him, but you know, they. Confirmed it the night before. They literally had a phone call to each other only like 24 hours prior to say this was the arrangement. Yeah. So what Jim knew is that the back door was, the lock was actually broken. So he'd been there enough to to know this something that the kids had done, something, bloody kids, they'd done something to wreck the lock or whatever, and it hadn't been repaired yet.

23:07 So he went around to the back of the house and sort of knocked again and then still no answer, let himself in and was calling out. And he went into Margaret's bedroom and he saw her lying on the bed and he walked over to her and he knew immediately just by looking at her that he that she was deceased. He then runs out of the house, goes to the next door neighbors because I think because Margaret had said that they were looking after Shawna that night and he went in there and he was like, is Shauna here?

23:39 Is Shauna here? And they're like, no, she's not here yet. So he he's like, oh God. And he runs back and he goes into Shauna's room and she's lying deceased in her bed too. So he then runs back. Well, by this stage, the neighbors have kind of followed him and they're trying to find out what the hell is going on. They've gone back to the neighbour's house and called 000. The local police attended. And then not, not there, not very long after that, the homicide squad arrived and there were two detectives that were apparently on their way home and who lived out that way.

24:10 So they weren't actually that far, that far away. So I guess by this stage, they've made a crime scene. And the first thing that is evident to the police is that Margaret and Shawna had both been strangled, and that was kind of the most obvious thing that they could see. Yeah. So where the where are we now? So basically the police then? I mean, it's getting sort of getting to be a bit later at night. They, it's really hard to start making inquiries. So they've actually just cordoned off the house.

24:50 Yeah. And I guess they've actually stationed 2 uniformed police officers at the house. Yeah, that becomes important a little bit later. Yes. So next day comes, obviously they've notified Justin and the family and the mom and dad and Don. They have Justin and the mum and dad straight away, Margaret's mum and dad straight away, Mr. and Mrs. Nelson. And they know they had no involvement. Yeah, Justin went to the crime scene and saw the bodies. As they were like, really? I didn't know that. That's awful.

25:24 Horrible. I think he insisted on. It yeah, I can get it, I can get it, but at the same time. How traumatic. Yeah, yeah. Poor boy. Absolutely. And they've actually also, I believe that night they've gotten in contact with Don Tap, who'd he'd actually remarried by this point and he was Alibide and. And yeah, I mean, obviously he's almost at that point with like prime suspect number one. Yeah, in that just, you know, that's what can happen that that, but they alibide him very quickly. He was, he was ruled out very quick and he was apparently very helpful in terms of, you know, didn't hold back anything was, yeah, very open, honest and they brought him out very quickly.

26:04 Yeah, yeah, I guess at this stage the number one suspect was actually Jim. Well, yeah, that's true. Yes, the opera. Yeah, opera date because, you know, he he found. He found the bodies, Yeah. Yeah, but again, I believe they interrogated him that night and again they questioned him more than once, yes, But again, they got to a point where they were like, oh, we're satisfied beyond. You know, they were having that alibi. They they brought him out very. They were, yeah, that's right. I, I don't actually know exactly how they did it, but they were able to prove that that it wasn't him.

26:36 Yeah. So we've got to now think where the police are at. They're like, OK, we've got these two dead bodies. They know that on Shawna's night dress. So on the 9 year old little girl's night dress, Seaman was found not on Margaret at all. So the bodies have obviously gone for autopsy to determine their manner of death. And they both died by strangulation. Yeah, so same manner of death. I guess the police assume at this point that Margaret was probably killed first. Yes, because. So she couldn't protect Shauna.

27:15 Yeah, that makes sense. But that makes logical sense. So to me that makes me think, well then this was a child predator. That's that to me, the way that was done. And also like, yeah, the fact that they've that that's been thought through of that to them, you're less likely to wake the child than the parent. You know, you like your parents more on alert on those, that sort of thing that you know, that you're gonna, if you can get rid of the adult, the child's then. Yeah, yeah, very vulnerable. Yeah, absolutely.

27:44 Now, the thing that I really don't like about the rhetoric in this, and this is not from Andrew Rule at all, but he does make comment of it as well because I feel like it's, I don't know, it's out there. So it needs to be mentioned, But because Margaret went on dates with men and enjoyed herself socially with men. And not necessarily single men. No, but I feel as though she's almost blamed by some people. Yeah, as if she's brought this on herself. Or something. There's a real line where it's sort of, I've heard it in numerous places that the reason this hasn't been solved is because there were too many suspects, which that annoys me because you, you compare it to a case, say, off the top of my head, like Claremont murders.

28:33 Yeah. So what, you're willing to like DNA test every cabbie in the entirety of like Perth, you know, to find the killer. But in this scenario, you weren't willing to like just it just, you know, wade through the suspects. I don't see the difference. It's how many suspects there are. There's just, OK, well, then you've got your work to do and get your work done. Like it's not about, oh, well, that's just too many. We can't deal with that because she was social and she had plenty of people that were in her life.

29:00 What's the difference? And it's no one wants this. No one would want to bring this on themselves. No, she was as you said, she was just a social woman. She lived a fulfilling life. Good honour, who gives? Like, OK, it's it's there's an ethical or moral question about dating known married men. Yeah, but that's not that's I mean, you don't, you know, you deserve to die. Yeah. You know or deserve to be murdered. But for a daughter then like, you know, like how can they just But then. One of the one of the articles or no, it wasn't even an article.

29:29 It might have even I've been on Reddit to fucking hell. But you know, people were saying, well, you know, maybe she hadn't have been promiscuous, that maybe that wouldn't have invited or they wouldn't have seen Shawna. And then. But I'm like, no, this is not. You can't. Live under a rock, but also. This is not Margaret's fault. She didn't do this. Do you know what? If there's people like that, then they just shouldn't exist. It's 100%. That's it really. Fucking pisses me off. We should be able to freely live and do our lives without the threat of someone being murdered or raped.

30:02 Or yeah, that's right. Nah, fuck it. So let's have a chat about, yeah, potential suspects. Yeah, cool. So the first suspect that I wanna talk about is the Doctor Who bought her the house. OK. Yes. Doctor Bradke. Dr. Bradke. Yeah. So Doctor Bradke was a married man and he had a family and he, so Margaret worked at the William Angliss Hospital and he was a an obstetrician there. Yeah. And he, they obviously met at work and started a relationship. And according to Margaret, as in according to Margaret's best girlfriends, her confidants, she loved him she wanted.

30:44 I think she's a little bit obsessed with him. The. Works with him she wanted everything with him and he must have felt similarly because he bought her that house in Kelvin drive in Ferntree gully while. Still married like I'm still married. Married a man the whole time. Like he. He made the choice. He bought her a house. He bought her a house. Now, I guess, somewhat tragically or no, definitely tragically, he was actually racing from some where. Had he been? I can't actually remember where he'd been, but he was going from somewhere back to the Angles Hospital one night to deliver a baby.

31:18 So the Angles hospital is the hospital in an upper fentry gully, So it's not far from where they live, very close by, like their local hospital, yeah. So he was actually coming down the mountain. So coming from the Dandenongs into the gully to the hospital. Yeah. And he lost control of his car and crushed it. And he died on the way to deliver this baby. So in in the fallout of all of that, Yeah. This was, this was before Margaret's and Shawna's murder, by the way. Yes, this. Was a year before two years.

31:50 Before 2 years. Two years, yeah. In the fallout of all of that, his wife has then discovered that he owned this property. Did she already? She knew that was the affair. She knew about the affair. Did she know about the property? In that? She didn't. Know about the property? Yeah. And so anyway, there ended up being a bit of a legal battle because, yeah, Margaret was that, well, he bought this for. Me. Well, no. She, Margaret actually thought was under the impression or what she put into the court documents was that in his will he had left that house to her.

32:19 However, in the wills that were being presented, that was not included. In had he left her half the house? Or something. No, so no so according to her, she was being left that house, right. But the wife at what Margaret accused was that his his wife destroyed that document and that will. Oh, OK. And so the in the court battle of it, the judge ended up ruling that she had a claim and So what he awarded was half of it not full. Yeah. OK. Because of the they're being, you know, two parties having two different versions of the of events.

32:56 Yeah. OK. He awarded her half of the house, Right. And then Margaret bought out the other half. Yeah. OK. Yeah, Yeah. So she paid out his widow? Yes. For the other half. The other half, yeah. So yeah, that's how that went. Right. OK. That makes sense, I guess, yeah. But yeah, obviously had to go to court over that. So yeah, it was quite a nasty court battle. Between the and how horrible that would be as his wife. Absolutely. I can see absolutely. Yeah, yeah, that would be awful. Be furious. Has your husband died in very tragic circumstances?

33:28 Yeah. But then to go and, like potentially jeopardize her financial future by doing that, too, I can understand why she battled that out totally. Yeah. A. 100%, yeah, 100%. So one of the suspects in this case then is her, is the wife. Yeah. K Bradke. Yeah. And what was, I guess the the suspicion was, or I guess somebody's theory was that she'd hired a hitman. Yeah. To murder Margaret. Now look, to me that seems really far fetched. And the matter was resolved in that Margaret had already bought her out by this point.

34:02 It had been settled. It had been a couple of years and things are kind of like very, very settled. Well, that and like it was pretty bizarre situation. Have you heard this story around how obsessed I think Margaret was with him? Go on. So there was a point where they would obviously together and she absolutely got really fixated on that. She was like, no, you need to leave your wife, right? Margaret rocked up on their to their house, yelling, saying you need to come and live with me, you know, like and leave your wife.

34:36 She threw a rock through the window and then stripped naked on the lawn to like get his attention to like, you know, come and live with her and leave his family. He he then Doctor Brad Key, obviously, and then like had to lock his child, his and wife in a backroom and said to them, you stay there, I'll go sort her out and take her home. And he had to go and drove her home and drop her off. And I mean, wouldn't it's been their neighbor? It's interesting. Yeah. Apparently she like lay down in the bushes or something so he couldn't get her.

35:05 Yeah, but also I did you see it like in that same report? I think we've probably both heard the same thing. She also keyed his car. He had this brand new red sports car, a Datsun or something. And she got really angry with you one day, so she keyed all the way down the side of it. I mean, I don't like that. No, that's that's destructive for no reason. That there's there's a consistent amount of kind of similar behaviour in her and people have commented that she could treat them pretty shit when she wanted to as well.

35:37 Like, and she was pretty sparky. Yeah, yeah. Fiery redhead was sort of mentioned quite a few times in the stuff I was reading about it. Yep, Yep. I see it. Yep. I don't see it. OK, next suspect. Should we go into? Who should we do next? Should we do Ian Cook? Yeah, sure. OK, yeah, so, oh, actually, let's do Tony Blackwell first. The brother-in-law. Oh yeah, yeah. On the day of, on the day that the bodies were discovered that during the day, that day, Margaret's sister's boyfriend went to the house.

36:13 Now there is I could not find anywhere. It's not why he went. It's not in the police reports, it's nowhere. It's no one knows why he was there, but he was there. But he was there. So he rocks up. He sees that Margaret's cars in the driveway. The newspaper was on the lawn at this point. I think he contextually that time though, too, I can say because I grew up, I guess more in that time. Yeah, If you drove past someone's house that you knew and their car was in the driveway, you'd not go and knock on the door.

36:40 Yeah, you know what I mean? It was more that way, I guess, So I can come at it from an angle of these days you wouldn't do that. Like, I don't know, it's just not like that, no. You always text someone so they've got time to at least, I don't know, shovel their shit under the couch or something. Or in a cupboard. Absolutely. Yeah. No, definitely. You just if you. Yeah. It drove past someone's house and their car was in the Oh, you're not gonna do it. Hey, have a chat and have a coffee. I don't know.

37:01 Yeah, look, maybe it was that. Yeah. I mean, I know he was eventually eliminated, so yeah, it probably was fairly innocent. Yeah, But he's picked up the newspaper and put it on the porch, knocked on the window, and he's like, I knew they were there because the curtains were drawn and but he was like, I just assumed they were sick or sleeping. Yeah, slept in and unwell, so he just left, yeah. Not thinking anything more of it. So he was. He was also illuminated. Yeah, yeah. So that was why when Jim Jim arrived, Jim Rollins that he's found the newspaper had been like obviously was on the on the doorstep, not on the driveway.

37:35 Yeah. So that that cleared that up for the police of that that occurring. So yeah, we've got all, it's all aligning. It is all aligning. We've also got then Ian Cook. Now this guy is interesting. Is he your front runner? I don't want to say front runner, but I want to say potentially involved. OK, he was my front runner, Yeah, until I have now developed a very solid theory. So I actually don't think he had anything to do with it, although I don't think he's completely. Innocent. No, that's more probably where my head's at with him, yeah.

38:12 So Ian Cook was a very at this time was a very recently retired police officer. Yeah, when I say retired, he was medically discharged. From what they call boarded out, yeah. So this is a term they used to use back in the day. Kind of feel like sometimes we should bring these sorts of things back, but it was a way of getting people out of the force potentially. I mean, potentially people were medically legitimately discharged. I mean, get injured in the line of duty, you know, you know, that's that's completely fair.

38:39 But this was a term that they could use to basically go, we need to get you out. But obviously if we tell you you're sacked then that looks bad on you. We can keep this all quiet and board you out. And basically that meant they were still entitled to their police pension, yeah. And get all the benefits of if you're retiring that kind of situation or medically discharged from it, but but yeah, but not the label of it that you're being fired and. Sacked. So he was in his early 50s. I think he's like 54 at the time.

39:07 Yeah, when this happened and and he this boarding out had only very recently happened. Now he did have a connection to Margaret in that he was part of the same Masonic Lodge that Margaret's dad belonged to. And a lot of police officers at the time were Masons and were Free Masons and they especially homicide detectives. So it was a very intertwined and linked sort of network of people. And this Ian Cook, who wasn't actually a detective or anything, I think he was just a senior constable. He was a general duties police officer.

39:49 But because he was a Mason, he'd met a lot of these homicide cops and whatever. So back when we were just talking before about them, the police the night of the murder, cordoning it off and putting, popping a couple of uniformed police officers there. He actually rocked up to the scene, this Ian Cook and he was like, Oh well, I actually left a book inside. I'm just going to go and showed him his badge, which was which was not valid anymore. He. Should have had it with. I don't. Know if they'd take them away.

40:16 I know. Cops do keep them, yeah, but. Like yeah, but it's not valid. Like he should not have done that. He wasn't a A serving. Police officer would be illegal in that he falsely represented himself for. Sure. So he's gone in because he said he lent Margaret a book. Didn't want to get wrapped up in this. Yeah, he didn't want to have to go into an inquest or anything. Yeah, just because what would be the point in that? I've got nothing to do with it. He's gone in there. Now. The inference is that he's gone in there to pop his fingerprints everywhere and have a legitimate reason for doing so.

40:44 And so if his fingerprints were found somewhere, he'd be like, oh. Yeah, well, that's 'cause I go there all the time. I went to pick up my book. I went to. Pick up my book, yeah. OK, he's really sauce. That I, I find that SUS and there's other aspects of him that are very unusual. And I mean, look, we don't know whether he was boarded out correctly and that he was for a reason or whether there was a dodgy reason as to why. No, that is not known. But what an odd, I just find that, I mean, that would never happen today, never that they would cross that line of of a crime scene.

41:15 Very much. Will there be at least a record of who'd been in and out and all that? Nothing like that was taken at the time, no. Or yeah, I don't like. It I don't like it, no. But and this poor uniformed police officer wouldn't have known any different, probably. Well, he would have. Looked to them as a 54 year old man. Oh, he's more senior than me, you know, like, oh, he's got the badge on. Just to let him do what he do. Yeah. No, I'll go. No way. That would never happen to this day. Yeah. Okay, who have we got next?

41:44 What about the driving instructor? Yeah, the truck driver. Yeah, the. Driving instructor. Yeah, so he's an interesting character. Do you know his name? I couldn't find his name anywhere but. No, actually I don't think his name is known. So most of the people who were naming by name, it's because they're, well, either they've been cleared and the names are out there, yeah. Or because they're since deceased, Yes. So Ian Cook is since. He's deceased, so we can. Why we can name him? Because he still hasn't been eliminated as a suspect.

42:13 No, no. So the truck driver who was teaching Margaret how to drive, apparently he had put some pretty hard word on her and very much unwanted from by Margaret, but but she continued to want to point out driving lessons. He was offering her driving lessons with that like for free because he was very keen. And so she was like, well, I'll take the free driving lessons, which was what we're talking about. Like she wasn't, she wasn't shy in terms of like going I'll, you know, I don't want to think give him any ideas.

42:44 So I'll back off and not take my free driving lessons. She's like, fuck that. I've taken the free driving lessons. So you can think what he wants. I love that about it. So yeah, she was doing that. But he was married now when he was interviewed with his wife in the same room. Bizarre, bizarre. And of course he's not going to be honest about his thoughts of her. And I know, so I do, I query that because he's then been ruled out in terms of of this or no, sorry. He hasn't been ruled out because so he in his interview said to the police that he's never been in the house at all.

43:18 Now, his fingerprints were found inside that house. So that's interesting. Yeah. I think it's probably worth noting at this point as well that back in the day, back in 1984, DNA was not a thing. So a lot of the investigations surrounded fingerprints. They DNA samples were collected. Yeah, there was hair, some hairs that were found, some and obviously the semen found on her night gown at that was it. Wasn't it wasn't like, you know, there was a huge amount of other forensic evidence collected. It was mostly just fingerprints.

43:49 Yeah. And so the fact that he lied about being in her house. But then as you said, his wife was there. So yeah, of course, like I feel. Like you take him down to the station and have a proper conversation with the bloke. Yeah. I mean, he could have been easily ruled out because he could have said, Oh yeah, no, I used to go and have coffee because I was pretty keen on her and I was trying to, you know, but I mean, it would never went anywhere. Whatever. Say what he's going to say and be honest so they can rule him out rather than sitting in front of his wife going no, I've never been in the house.

44:15 No, no, no, no. Yeah. Like that's a bit. That's stupid on their behalf to me, Yeah. Another suspect was a work colleague of Margaret's brother. So they actually worked for the Knox City Council in what did they do? I think they did like maybe hard rubbish collection or something. Or maintenance or something. Like that, Yeah. Oh, yeah. No, sorry. It was maintenance because. So this bloke who worked with Margaret's brother was a known criminal. He'd done bad things in the past and then subsequently was after, well, after this was fired from the council, his council job because he would go around and knock fire hydrants over with the truck only to then be called out to repair them after hours.

45:05 So he'd get like, you know. Heaps after hours, yeah. Money, yeah. So council being dodgy? Council workers what? No shade to all the councilors who do the right thing. So, but this guy had did have a criminal history. He had helped Margaret's brother move furniture into Margaret's house. So he knew the layout of the house. He knew that she lived there with Shawna. The one thing that the police did sort of find that was that obviously the front door was locked now. So they did think that this person had to be either well known to Margaret or known to the house, because whoever entered went through that back door where they knew that lock was broken.

45:48 Yeah. And there was no sign of struggle inside. No the house. So they, they believe Margaret and Shawna were in bed asleep when when the attack happened, but no other signs of struggle within the house. So yeah, I think whoever did this absolutely must have known that the back door was broken because there was no other signs of forced entry or anything like. That so that's why it's so that's why how he became a suspect and that he he knew the the house and potentially then obviously knew that the back door was broken.

46:14 Yeah, interesting to know in terms of her brother Lindsay, he has vocally said that he has not He has not been ruled out. He's never been questioned by police like so. DNA's never been. Taken, never been taken. So he is a bit frustrated by that with the police that he feels like we. Haven't even taken Margaret's brother or Shauna's uncle's DNA. Yeah. To compare that to the semen that was found today, Yeah. Like, I'm talking 2025. You could actually be going through and getting before all these people die.

46:47 Yeah. Go and get, go and get that. Get it. Like he just feels like, I mean, he's, you know, innocent and he's like, I'm, I'm here to be, you know, DNA tested. And I wouldn't be if I was, you know, guilty. But why wouldn't you do that to rule me out for 100%? Yeah. Because then you're, you know, you're getting that pool of people smaller of who you're looking at because at the moment, if they're not looking at me like he was, he sort of said, if you're not looking at me and getting me eliminated, who else are you not looking at and getting eliminating?

47:11 So yeah, potentially there's lots of people that haven't been looked into enough like. Oh, I think that's. And I think even the list that we've got haven't been looked into close enough, as we just said, with not interviewing a guy without his wife present. Yeah. There's so many, so many. Things in there. Yeah. So the next suspects, I suppose, and again, that none of these men have been eliminated and there's some really suspect things that have happened since is neighbors. Yes. So at the very end of Kelvin Drive, where Kelvin Drive meets Ferntree Gully Rd.

47:42 on the corner. So Burwood Highway. Oh, Burwood Hwy. Sorry. Yeah, just I think it was 3 or 4 houses away from Margaret and Shawna. Yeah. They lived a family who had lots of boys. And when I say boys, they were aged, I think between about, at the time, aged between about 14 and 24. And also living on that property in a caravan was the sister's boyfriend, now the youngest of those boys, used to mow Margaret's lawn for her and tinker with her car if it needed. AI don't know, oil change or something.

48:20 Yeah. And he was a weird kid, like a very odd child. And so the other brothers, they were all a bit rough, These, these this family. So the rough family on the street and they'd been involved in petty crimes and that kind of thing. And this youngest boy was very, very odd and he was almost obsessed with Margaret. Yeah, vocally spoken to many people on the street of what he thought of Margaret. And he knew everything about her movements and what she did and where she went and who she was with. Like he was very, he was almost obsessed by her so.

48:56 But again, the police haven't ever eliminated any of them. And the thing of note now is that the boyfriend of the sister who lived in the caravan on that property, he has since been charged with rape offences against children. I didn't know that. So that was in the subsequent years to Shawna and Margaret's murder. But to me that's like a no brainer. You fucking go and figure that out. Absolutely. Go and DNA test him. What is going on? I mean, I'm assuming they'd have his DNA from the other rape charge.

49:29 Well, now, yeah, so. Yeah. Yeah. Well, apparently the sample they got of the semen is not a good enough sample that they can eliminate by putting it into the database. Yeah, but it's apparently good enough that they could, if they got a fresh sample, they could. I don't know. I didn't really understand that. That apparently can, because obviously there's been some DNA evidence that's come up in the yeah, that they have linked hurt people too. Yeah, that apparently it's good enough to do some sort of testing with for that, OK, but not good enough to go into a database.

49:59 Right. Maybe they don't have enough of the profile. That's yeah, not enough of the profile. That's what it was, Yeah. OK, which I don't fully understand. That's your domain a little bit more. I haven't read about that so I'm not gonna comment on it, but yeah, that kind of makes sense. That makes a little bit more sense. Yeah. OK, cool. Yeah, Yeah. So they haven't eliminated all those sorts of people that are. Yeah, I think they're definitely worth being looked into. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, for sure.

50:26 I'm tipping the one you're avoiding is the one that you're that keeps your front runner. Do you have any others you want to talk about? Not not other than the 2008, but. We can get to that. We can get to that. Yeah. So interesting this one came about because this was an Andrew Rule find. OK, so because Andrew Rule is so well connected, he'd gone over to WA to do a story on something or other and while he was there he met a journalist. He was doing a report with a journalist who had previously lived in Melbourne.

51:02 And he said to Andrew, my brother-in-law is a cop and he's got a theory on what happened with the taps. Have you, do you know about this person and gave him a name? We're going to call him Doctor X Yeah. So. And Andrew was like, oh, no, I actually haven't even heard that name in relation to this story. Now, mind you, at this stage, he'd done this massive story at the 20 year anniversary. Yeah. And he's like, that name has. It's not in any of the documentation. I have not heard that from any of the witnesses that I've interviewed.

51:36 Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Yeah. But when Andrew went back and looked through the archives now, he had to do this manually, I believe, because they weren't digitized. What he found was an entry. It was actually a birth notice of a girl, a young, a baby that was born on the 29th of December in, I think it was 19.

52:03 I think it was 1979, OK, so years before the murder, about five years before the murder. And it was Doctor Bradkey and Dr. X have welcomed, have delivered baby whatever into the world. And it was a birth notice for that baby. Yep. Thank you to all the staff, Lily Manglis and blah, blah, blah, blah. This was the only piece of evidence that Andrew could find that linked the two doctors. Well linked and then linked to Margaret. And then Margaret. Yeah, so he has then gone. OK, I'm going to investigate this a little bit further because from what the journalist in WA had told Andrew, this Doctor X had actually come up against some very serious charges later, Well and truly after Margaret and Shawna's murder.

52:57 Yeah. So he's gone and started looking into this. And what he found is extraordinary. This man, Doctor X, owned a property in French Gully. Yeah, OK, that's fine. He was a very avid tennis player. And back in the 80s, what did everyone wear when they played tennis? Dunlop Volley Tennis. Tennis. Shoes, yeah. The one of the pieces of evidence at the crime scene were perfect imprints of a size 11 Dunlop Volley tennis shoe and the imprints were made with onto car or the clay that is used on tennis courts.

53:40 And he had a private tennis court at home that was onto car. And he also played at Ferny Creek Tennis Club, which was also onto car. Yeah. And he had size 11 feet. Yeah. OK. So all of this is like, oh, my God. Oh, my God. You know, this is all adding up now. No one is saying that this man is the man who did it. It's just there's a lot of evidence to go towards this and he has never been interviewed or eliminated. So this man, so Andrew was able to track down this man's son, and his son hates him, absolutely hates him.

54:16 And he found out that that's because he had actually been convicted of pedophilia. And this was, I think the youngest girl was six years of age. He also raped older women as well like. Women, I think his age range was somewhere between 6:00 and 29. I think was sort of, yeah, he, he kind of bounced between like older, but not that old, like kind of women. He didn't go. Yeah. So he had such a reputation in Ferntree Gully. He was AGP slash obstetrician, so he'd deliver at the Anglers but he also had AGP practice.

54:53 He had such a reputation that women would not go and see him alone. They would always take their husband or their friend or somebody to go with him. You just can't even imagine it. When the charges were brought against him for the rapes and like the pedophilic behaviour, he actually moved to a clinic in Saint Kilda pending charges and trial and all of that and I believe there were victims there as well. He has then moved to a border town, so I don't know exactly where he lives to this day. As a known sex offender, he is now living between a primary school and a skate park in this border town.

55:33 Andrew Rule says that he has been there, he has spoken to the neighbors and spoken to the people in this town and everybody knows who he is and what he's done and they keep a very close eye on him. They reckon that he reckons that if anyone saw him any when you're a child, he'd end up in the Murray. Yeah, well, how can he deserves it? Yeah. So he's my front runner. He's my Yeah. I think they they at the very least, need to eliminate him. He's still alive. Yeah. They need to at least at least eliminate him.

56:03 Yeah. But he has never been questioned. We know he knew Margaret. We know they work together. They work together. We. Know that he socialized with Doctor Brad Key. They probably went out socially. And if he was a paedophile, he would have seen Shauna. Yes, at at like they would have gone to Margaret's house, picked her up, whatever. Yeah, what the fuck. Like to me, this is a no brainer that this absolutely needs to be thoroughly, thoroughly investigated. Yeah, yeah, there's a lot more to go into him.

56:36 I yeah, I he's clearly a front runner that needs to be looked into. To me, I I just think there's so many. The Dunlop Volley shoe imprints, just all of it. He needs to be looked at. Absolutely. My only thing with this now, Yep, is that our favorite, Ron Iddles, So he's a Melbourne detective. He's retired now but in 2014 as he was heading up the cold case squad, he was handed this case to have a look at and I trust Ron. Yeah. And I dare say he would have looked at every angle of this. He he did also give it to students at the Detective Academy to look at and bring to him anything they they thought needed to be looked into further.

57:24 And there still is nothing more. So I feel like if he has ruled it, he's not ruled it out. It's not he's not been eliminated. But surely he would have pulled him in and had a conversation with him. The the other thing that I find really interesting, so Shawna went to Water View Primary School. I don't believe they looked at any of the staff there. I know the students there were gung ho at trying to find them. There was that a lot of them they sort of got a bit of PTSD from this, which absolutely be traumatized from hearing their their classmate.

57:56 I went through this, but I can just imagine back in the day, them all of them getting on their bikes and, you know, starting up a sleuth crew and trying to find what find the clues and because they wanted to know who had hurt their friend, their friend, you know, that's awful so. She was a brownie, too. Yeah. And I mean. Again, another place where there could be some interesting people around. Back in the day. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So do you want to talk about the 2008? Yeah. So in 2008, they did actually arrest someone for this, which is was super exciting, particularly for, you know, Margaret and Margaret Shawna's family thinking that they might have an answer for this.

58:33 How so they they arrested a man by the name of, I'm going to get his surname, Bosch Russell Gassar. Yeah, I think that's how you say it. Excellent. So he, they arrested him and they arrested him based on DNA, that his DNA did connect him to the DNA that was found on Shawna's nightgown. But very quickly after him being arrested, they had to drop the charges. He has not been cleared, I'll say that. But he they have dropped the charges due to the fact that the DNA was contaminated. So apparently what has occurred was that his DNA was being tested for something in the same lab where the stuff for Shawna and Margaret was being tested and they think there was cross contamination that created that.

59:25 Yeah, so apparently the night dress had been on the same table. Yeah, or same workbench as his DNA sample, and it hadn't been cleaned in between. Yeah, right. And so they, the laboratory pretty quickly figured out that they couldn't actually say definitively that his, it was his DNA that was found on the night dress. So yeah, they had to let him go. But as you said, they haven't. They've never arrested him again over this, but they certainly haven't eliminated. Him there, there was, I mean, there was other evidence that they they've been released to the public by any means that they had him, you know, potentially linked to this, but not as extensively as the DNA.

1:00:04 Yeah. So I mean, this was kind of a industry in 2008, this sort of became a bit of a a split in terms of how DNA was being viewed because previous to this, pretty much if there was DNA, you were done like whereas now the way DNA is kind of viewed is that DNA is one thing, but you need to have it lined up with other things as well. You can't just have a case based solely on DNA. So I think the other obviously then the other bits of evidence they had on him. Were not enough to stand on their own with dropping the DNA, but potentially with the DNA and these other little bits that they could link him to the.

1:00:37 The scene was obviously and more than they were happy to arrest him and charge him. Yeah. But without that DNA then as well, they were like, Oh no, we haven't got enough of a case here. Yeah, but not enough to say we're going to rule him out either. So yeah, that was, I think that would have been such a, a roller coaster for the family, for potentially for obviously Margaret's parents and siblings who would have thought that they were actually getting an answer here as well as Don Taps. So it's awful that that occurred.

1:01:08 I think for them to get that their hopes up that they'd found someone and then no, Unfortunately, yes. In 2015, investigators reopened the cold case, and now there is a $1 million reward out for information leading to an arrest in this case. Yeah. So I think that's a really good thing. And I feel like, you know, so much time has gone past now. What are we? It's 40 odd years later. Yeah. And, you know, I really hope that that financial reward will potentially lead to something. I mean, it's been, it's been a long time.

1:01:45 It's been 10 years since that was announced. But the the offer is still up. Yeah, there is. The reward is still available. When I say, like, you know, earlier in this episode that like surely someone knows something. But that's where I, I think I worry that if it is that guy, the doctor X that we talked about, and if he's living, living this kind of isolated lifestyle, you know, on the board of town, maybe he maybe he is someone who won't talk to someone and won't have let it slip what what he's done because he's probably, it sounds like he's impacted many young people's lives and then into their futures.

1:02:16 So this is almost nothing to him, which is just gross if that that's the case. But I guess he hasn't murdered again. Well, that we we know of like he's not been linked to any other murders. But yeah, an interesting 1. And I do then I still don't rule out obviously again the police officer and cook. I feel like I don't know if there was something dodgy about him in general then is there a, is there a world that he was a part of, a bit of this sort of stuff going on? Because I. How did he, why did he turn up to the crime scene the day that he died?

1:02:54 And there's a few. The other thing? Was. There really awful like I find this a bit weird in that so the funeral for Margaret and Shawna like Ian Cook was in the family car on that day. So fucking bizarre. He was in the morning car and Margaret sister was like, what is he doing here? Because they all they all really creepy. Yeah, they didn't like him. No, I find that really odd. And I just feel like then it makes him look more interesting in this. Agreed. So that's when I sort of go like, I'm not ruling out that Doctor X is maybe the perpetrator here, but potentially he had a cop mate who was covering things up for him in the area.

1:03:32 Yeah. And if he was a local ish person that was doing that for him, did you do that in this example? And like rock up that crime scene to remove something that would have directly linked Brad wrong Doctor. Sorry, Doctor X Yeah. To this scene. Yeah. So does it makes so many question marks over? It. I know there's so many things like that out there. The other one that I think is what's not helped. This is less publicity at the time of the this incident occurring before was more publicized. Yeah, we alluded to this earlier.

1:04:03 So, yeah, I believe, from what I can gather, that Margaret's parents, Mr. and Mrs. Nelson, didn't really want the information out there. I think because of the rhetoric that was going around that Margaret was this promiscuous woman. Yeah. And that that was the cause of, you know, if it wasn't for that, then these two women, well, this mother and child would wouldn't be dead incorrect. But I think they were a little bit embarrassed and didn't really want the information out there. They most certainly weren't appealing to the media or to the public for any information.

1:04:37 They didn't do any interviews. They did not want any bar of the publicity of it. Which meant that then there was no story to run like because there was no one to talk. They wouldn't. Provide photos or information on Margaret or Shawna's. You know, life to that point, which is where, you know, people start to develop, you know, an interest in the story when you get to know that this was a person and this is what this person did and how amazing they were. Yeah. Which Margaret did sound like an amazing person.

1:05:04 And Shawna, she was involved in everything. She was such a she was. A bra little thing, yeah. You know, and, but nobody really knew that about them until Andrew Rule went digging 20 years later. Absolutely so. The other real tragedy in this story is, yeah, what we talk about. That ripple effect every time. Every time. And it's, it is untold because as we go through this, you'll get to see more people who've been affected by this tragedy. So Justin went over to live in the UK, So he actually had dual citizenship because Don Tapp was Auk was from the UK.

1:05:40 Yeah. So he decided I can understand this. He needed to get away. And I think as soon as he was 18, he moved over to England. He had a very, very serious alcohol problem. Yeah. Now, again, I can understand it. I, I don't know whether he had any psychological intervention after this. I don't know what that side of his life looked like. But when he was over there, he met a woman and they established a very solid and strong relationship. But she said, I think her name was Michelle. I think he went right.

1:06:12 And she said that she loved him deeply and he loved her deeply. And she said he was the loveliest man she'd ever. Met. Yeah, She spoke so beautifully about him. But she said I we just quit. So she had his daughter from a previous relationship. She said I just couldn't expose my daughter to that anymore because he would drink himself silly every day. Apparently he from the from the time Shawna and Margaret were murdered, he never slept a full night. Oh, God. And so he would drink himself into a, you know, into a slumber, I suppose, in order to just get rest.

1:06:47 Yeah. And anyway, it eventuated that they sort of broke up and he went to live on his own, rented an apartment not very far from from Michelle and her daughter. And they were still in fairly regular contact. And on this, at this particular time, Michelle was like, I haven't heard heard from him in a week or so. I better go over and check. She tried calling. He wasn't answering. She said she went to his. This is awful. But she went to his door, and there were flies hanging around the door and a really, really bad smell.

1:07:18 Yeah. And she got the, I don't know, the person who owned the flats to open the door. And they found his very, very decomposed body. To the point where they couldn't actually get any. They couldn't see, couldn't tell what Yeah, the cause of death was. Yeah. They didn't know whether he'd accidentally died of alcohol poisoning or whether he'd done something to take his own life. It was just not evident because of how decomposed his body was. Yeah. So you know, and as you say, now Michelle and her daughter are living with that tragedy and that that horrible thing that had happened to this very significant person in their life.

1:07:51 And this is because of what happened to the person, you know, the person who murdered Shawna and and Margaret. Yeah, they're responsible. They're responsible, absolutely. Yeah. Because he really, really beat himself up over the fact that as a 14 year old boy, he thought that if he was home, this wouldn't have happened. And you? Know what I think that's probably. True. I do. Which is awful to say because you would hate for him to take that on. Yeah. But yeah, like maybe a boy of that age, you know, being living in, if he was in that home, someone would have, you know, had a second thought of, you know, going in there because that's another person to, you know, deal with.

1:08:29 Not. Yeah. Just awful for him to think like that, though, that he is at fault. He's not at fault. Yeah, maybe it could have changed outcomes, but it's it's not his fault. It's just awful that he, and he clearly very much took that on, according to Michelle, that that was what got to him the biggest that he could have, that it was his fault and it wasn't. No, no, that's the person who did this. That's their fault. Yeah. And little things in time, you know, sliding doors, moments, things like that.

1:08:57 You can't change those. They're, you know, things that are just life. But there is just, yeah, endless amounts of people who are impacted by this. I mean, like even Jim Rowlands has spoken about his, you know, the fact that he found them and the effect that's had on him, you know, because he, he genuinely felt felt strongly for, for Margaret anyway. But just to even find people in that state that's really impacted his life as well. It's, it's just, it just endless the amount of people impacted with these events, these whoever this massive piece of shit is, I hope one day we know who it is and we can name them and shame them, that's for damn sure.

1:09:38 And also that they get their get what they deserve. I mean, yeah, it's, it's been. Unfortunately. 4041 years now yeah a lot of times gone past that a guilty person has been out probably yeah you know of out in you know out in society yeah I I can only hope for the remaining family members and people who loved these two women and Justin that we've you know the the perpetrator is found and brought to justice. For sure, that is for sure. I'll. Just wanted to read a quote that Andrew wrote in his latest article on on this case.

1:10:24 After more than 40 years, a murdered mother and her two dead children deserve better. So true, plain and simple, yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah? Well if anyone knows anything contact Crime Stoppers. Yep that is for sure. We could solve this one and you get 1,000,000 bucks for it. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Yeah. As I said, the reward's still out there. So do it, do it, do it, do it. All right. Oh wow. What are we going into for next week? Next week we are going to be looking into the pitting. Girls, Oh my God.

1:11:01 Oh, you know, you know. Oh my God. If you haven't heard of this family. I feel like this is going to be a very research heavy week. It is actually, definitely, yeah. Because I feel like I I feel like I know a lot, yeah, but I reckon I'm only touching the surface. I reckon yeah, if there's a lot there. Oh yeah. Interesting people. Oh God, yeah. Yeah. Cool. Join us for. That please do. Again, if you'd like to support us, you can do so on patreon.com/two Crime Besties over at buymeacoffee.com/two Crime Besties.

1:11:37 Please like and comment. Actually, one of the things I did want to say when I was looking at our stats, I know that a lot of people listen who aren't actually following us. So if you could just really, it's really great if you can just hit that follow button. It really, really, really helps us. If everybody who listens hits that button, we're going gangbusters. Absolutely. That would be really helpful. Thank you very much. We look forward to bringing you another episode next week. Absolutely stay curious.

1:12:02 Crime besties. Bye.