Episode 61 - Margaret and Seana Tapp

0:14 Welcome back, crime besties, Here we are for another episode.

0:17 I feel like this week has gone so quickly and we're here again

0:20 recording. Oh, absolutely.

0:22 I hear you on that. No joke, this week has just

0:25 disappeared with a bunch of an eye.

0:27 Yeah, I totally. I think I've said this in last

0:29 episode that one of my work colleagues and listener of our

0:32 podcast, she said that as soon as you get into the Bay, our mum

0:38 said just rolls on. And yeah, this week, if this

0:40 week's anything to go by, she's absolutely right.

0:43 Swear to God it was Friday of last week.

0:46 Yesterday I had no joke. I know I feel like what, even

0:49 when I was setting up this morning, I'm like, no, like it

0:52 feels like am I have I got the day right?

0:54 Yeah, yeah. Even Lucas said to me yesterday

0:57 he's like mum when I woke up this morning.

1:00 I had to say to myself, Thursday.

1:04 And I'm like, oh, why? And he's like, because I, I was

1:06 very confused what day it was. Yeah.

1:09 Thursday. You for that, Lucas?

1:11 Yeah. Can you do that?

1:12 Can you send that message to me each morning?

1:14 Yeah. Literally.

1:15 I'm at the moment waking up, going what day is it?

1:17 It's Monday. No, it's fucking Thursday.

1:19 Like, you know, it's it's that bad.

1:21 Yeah, I don't know. I mean, there's so much going

1:23 on, it's insane. But I don't think that helps.

1:25 I think for me, this week's been really odd because we've kind

1:29 of, we've only got one last sporting game tomorrow, yeah.

1:34 So the rest of the sports have stopped for at least two or

1:37 three, four weeks maybe. I think it's actually yeah, 4

1:40 like a while. So we've got.

1:42 No training, nothing like that. Which is so.

1:45 Nice. Oh, it's been so.

1:46 And then I've also my eldest has been at camp this week.

1:49 How quiet. Is your house house is so.

1:53 Quiet, but I do really miss him. I can't wait to see him this

1:55 afternoon. He'll be so feral, feral.

1:59 Absolutely gross. Absolutely gross.

2:01 I. Can't stink now, now that like,

2:02 you know, they're like that age. Yeah.

2:04 I think that's that's now level of, you know, oh, you're gonna,

2:07 you're gonna stink a bit when you get home.

2:08 Yeah, I'll never forget that. I remember that's really a year

2:10 7 or year 8 getting in the car after school camp and we were

2:14 gone like a week though and we literally camped camped ohh So I

2:17 remember getting the car and my mum just going ohh God the

2:20 windows down. Windows down and you're getting

2:22 in the shower the second Yeah through that, yeah, yeah.

2:26 Well, at least they have showers at this camp, whether or not

2:28 they use. Them I don't know for how long.

2:30 In fact, yeah, exactly. Just get the the bodies wet.

2:33 But Oliver's very like, he's very clean and very about like,

2:38 yeah, I I know he'll have a shower every day.

2:40 He won't be able to not. No, he's a very clean Yeah, and

2:43 he's got. Good like, you know, he had to

2:44 actually because they weren't allowed to take any kind of

2:47 spray deodorant, which is fair, I think yes.

2:49 Can you imagine the sting of that place if they're allowed

2:52 are? You going everywhere?

2:54 So and he only has spray so he had to go up and get get

2:57 himself. Oh well it took him bloody and I

3:00 honestly it took him like 10 minutes to choose which scent he

3:04 might like. So I feel like smell wise he'll

3:07 probably be semi OK, but the exhaustion, he's just going to

3:10 be foul. Yeah, yeah.

3:12 The deodorant aisle now with young boys, it's hilarious.

3:15 I've got, you know, Mason who's like, knows what he wants, just

3:18 wants to roll on like, yeah, it just, it needs to fit the

3:20 purpose. Yes, we need that.

3:21 And that's no extravagant, no fragrant, No, you know, Yeah.

3:24 And then there's my Brody. He'll stand there for bloody

3:27 10/15/20 minutes, kind of like that one.

3:30 Just hold that one. I'm just gonna just, I'm gonna

3:32 check these ones now. And I want to, like future.

3:36 I need to take a bloody can of coffee with me so we can change

3:39 the smell. Some coffee beans.

3:44 That's actually not the worst idea.

3:45 I'm surprised he hasn't asked you to do.

3:48 He would too. Yeah, he.

3:49 Would like no no, I need to choose a new fragrant Oliver's

3:53 super into their Lynx Golden mango and it actually does smell

3:56 really nice. Oh, I can tell you right now

3:58 that just the fact of the name Golden Mango, Yeah, already be

4:01 into it entirely already on to me saying when can I start

4:04 having mango in my lunch box for, you know, maybe when I went

4:07 to That's Lotto. Yeah, it's still a bit off

4:09 before they're $2.00 of mango, although strawberries are cheap

4:12 again. Yes, thank God, but he won't eat

4:14 them in his lunch box. He'll devour them at home if I

4:16 put them in his lunch box. Do you think you'll I can eat

4:18 them? Oh, come on.

4:19 Head in that shit like where the stuff they eat at home but not

4:22 in a lunch box. Yeah, I don't.

4:24 Understand that 10? That's annoying.

4:26 That's really annoying. I sent Lucas to school today

4:28 with a lunch order. So subway.

4:31 Subway Friday. We wish my kids had ate that,

4:33 Yeah. Oh, don't, don't get, don't get

4:36 confused. He literally just has ham and.

4:38 Cheese. Oh, that's it.

4:39 But it's no cheap one, I find. Yeah, compared to the other one

4:42 that we do at our school like that can get ecsy.

4:46 Yeah, my kids don't really like the other one because.

4:48 So our school doesn't have a canteen.

4:50 No, no. So they don't even even do.

4:52 I don't think many do, no. So they have to bring in the

4:54 food from an external company and they, my boys reckon it's

4:58 gross. I reckon it'd be cold.

5:00 And yeah. And I can't even my kids kill

5:02 for a lunch order. Yeah, but it's the same thing.

5:05 Every time when we were looking at high schools with Oliver,

5:08 yeah, we went to this particular school and I was like, oh, I'm

5:11 coming here. I've had a couple.

5:12 We walked past. We walked.

5:13 They all have have these canteens and they do always take

5:16 you past the canteen because that's obviously very important

5:18 for the kids. Yeah, for the kids.

5:20 And Oliver was like, oh, mom, they have Japanese Curry, got

5:23 it, chicken, whatever else they had.

5:27 And he's like, I really. Do they do Rama?

5:30 I'm assuming they would. I'm assuming they would.

5:32 He's like, I really want to come here.

5:34 Let's just see if this is the right school in other ways.

5:37 Oh Jesus, we'll see. Oh, love.

5:39 That's one thing K Pop Demon Hunters has done great for my

5:41 family is that now Brody will eat ramen noodles.

5:43 Like in a cup thing. Yeah, because, Because the hunt

5:45 tricks. They yeah, those.

5:46 So that put their name on them. That has gotta be a merch grab.

5:49 Like they when are they gonna release those?

5:51 Acts are. They're gonna.

5:52 They're gonna. Oh, they're coming for sure.

5:53 Oh. I'll buy them.

5:55 Yeah. Hello.

5:56 I'm here for it. It is so good.

5:59 It's farm fleetest. Peter was telling me the other

6:02 day that whoever originally was going to buy K Pop Demon Hunters

6:08 was like, Oh yeah, now they decided not to.

6:10 Oh, they had the. Rights for it they.

6:11 Sold the rights to it to Netflix for $100 million.

6:15 Yeah, right. And it has just obviously it's

6:17 exploded and it's, you know, many multiple times of that

6:21 finance. There's gonna be more of them.

6:22 Yeah. So yeah.

6:23 Oh God, I love it. All of the the the theories of

6:28 what's gonna happen next. Yeah, I'm all in.

6:31 I'm all in. Are you?

6:33 I haven't done the deep dive into that yet, but last night,

6:36 because Ollie was on Cam, I said to Lucas, look, we can do

6:39 something special the two of us, because Peter was out.

6:42 Yeah. And he's like, can we just have

6:45 dinner and watch K pop demon hunters in bed?

6:48 And I'm like, sold. Yeah, I'm so for that.

6:51 So for that. So it was really cute.

6:53 So I have to watch it and then we get to the soda pop theme and

6:55 obviously it's like pause, pause.

6:56 I need to get my stuff together. And already comes out with, you

7:00 know, he's got to pull out every dance move like as in front of

7:02 the TV, he doesn't look at the screen and he knows every move

7:05 to that dance and pulls it out. And I have to record it and.

7:08 You haven't sent that one to me yet.

7:10 I haven't I I. Haven't had I haven't had a soda

7:13 pop yet. Oh, apparently so.

7:15 They've put it to put together a little Sarjo Brothers group,

7:19 Yes. And yeah.

7:20 You know what Lucas's character is in that.

7:23 Is he baby? No.

7:24 Oh, who is he? So Brody is Gino.

7:26 Yeah. And Lucas is Abby.

7:29 Oh, Abby, Because he's got the best ABS.

7:32 Apparently he. Actually, does.

7:34 He does. Oh, that's so.

7:40 Funny. Perfect.

7:41 Oh. That is so funny.

7:42 I love it. Oh, he didn't tell me that.

7:44 Yeah, I knew they'd put it together, but I didn't realize

7:45 they'd a sign. Oh yeah, they'd a sign

7:47 character. Sign characters?

7:48 Oh, there's no question, apparently.

7:49 Oh, right, you have no question, of course.

7:51 Oh, that is gorgeous. I love it.

7:54 All right, let's get. On.

7:55 I know we could chat for ages. We have so many shout outs today

8:00 so thank you to everybody. We have had a real bumper

8:04 Instagram comment sort of thing this week, yeah.

8:08 And I just want to do a really. I think it's Instagram's taking

8:11 over because Tik Tok's just dying at the moment.

8:13 The algorithm has completely ruined me at the moment, but I

8:16 don't. Know I far out we never you

8:19 never know when they change no, you just gotta keep going with

8:22 it. But our Instagram has been doing

8:24 really really well yeah and I just want to shout out Rue under

8:28 score Lindsay Yep who has been commenting liking so many of our

8:34 posts. I feel like maybe she just found

8:36 us and he's going through, like, past, you know, finding it all.

8:40 Yeah. So shout out to you, Rue.

8:42 Lindsay, if you are listening, I know you at least follow us on

8:46 on Insta. And then we've had five new

8:49 Patreons this week. So thank you very, very much to

8:52 Angela, Sarah Worthington, Lisa Battistello, Kira Alinta, and

8:58 Peter. Thank you for for joining us

9:01 over there on Patreon. We have released our first

9:03 episode over there and we're just actually after today, we're

9:06 going to have a chat about what our next episode will be.

9:09 So yeah, if you guys have any suggestions, anything you want

9:11 to hear from us, please let us know because that's your space.

9:15 We will. We will be guided by you guys

9:17 there. Please let us know.

9:19 Current reviews are quite very positive.

9:21 Like so. Very nice feedbacks as great

9:24 guys. Yes, thank you.

9:25 We've also had some coffees bought for us this week by

9:28 Leanne Lydon and I don't know. Yeah, sorry.

9:31 Leanne Lydon, Samantha Hart, Lisa Marie.

9:34 So I don't know if Lisa Marie is also the same Lisa who signed

9:39 the Patreon, I believe. So double thanks, Lisa.

9:42 That's really kind. Really kind, really, really

9:45 kind. Thank you.

9:46 And then our last. I think she's the one that we're

9:48 we're getting her through with her new 3 month old baby like

9:50 that. She's listening to us whilst

9:52 doing all that and we've been there and we feel it.

9:55 We know. Actually, you know, when I had a

9:57 three month old, that's when I listened to the teachers.

9:59 Yes, yeah. So I get it.

10:01 And in those middle of the night feeds, like, what do you do?

10:04 You're sitting in darkness. Absolutely.

10:06 Yeah. Oh, yeah.

10:07 I remember those days. And then to Fiona Wilton, who

10:12 has sent us the most gorgeous message as well, saying that

10:17 that, you know, she basically she was describing her life and

10:21 how it aligns with our chaotic lives.

10:23 And she really related to the stuff that we talk about.

10:27 And then we sent or Meg sent her back a message saying like, you

10:30 really do sound like our people just by what she'd written.

10:33 And she was like, Oh my God, I wish I was one of your people.

10:35 Well, you know what Fiona you are.

10:37 One of join the besties you're here you're here we love it and.

10:40 Thank you for your support and thank you to everybody who's

10:43 shared our podcast as well. We know I can tell by the stats

10:47 this week that we've actually got a fair few new listeners by

10:50 the looks of it. So thank you very, very much and

10:53 welcome to all of those of you who are new to.

10:57 The besties. Absolutely.

10:59 Thanks for joining us. That's amazing.

11:02 All right, this one's a good one.

11:05 Yeah, this is a, it's a very interesting case.

11:07 Now, I think before we even get started, well, we're talking

11:10 today about Mark, the murder, murders of Margaret and Shawna

11:14 Tapp. I think I need to say at the

11:17 very beginning of this, Andrew Rule, yes, is the foremost

11:25 person, yeah, point person on this case.

11:28 So he's a reporter, A journalist, and he has his

11:33 podcast is called Life and Crimes with Andrew Rule, right

11:36 Podcast, brilliant podcast. He's an I just love him.

11:39 I just love him. Yeah.

11:41 But he was actually a a police reporter at the time.

11:45 This this murder took place in 1984.

11:48 He was a a police reporter at the time and he said that he did

11:53 cover the story, but he said there were five that he can find

11:57 in the archives. There were five stories.

11:59 I think even when it first happened, he wasn't at a level

12:02 of writing these articles, that kind of thing.

12:04 I think he wrote, he wrote later.

12:05 He came a bit later. Well, he wrote at the time.

12:08 He wrote like a little blurb, he said of the things that were

12:10 written. It wouldn't have even fit a

12:12 fool's cap page over 5 little articles.

12:15 A little appear it was in the media about it.

12:17 Like, yeah, in newspapers. Yeah.

12:19 And it wasn't until the 20 year anniversary of the death of

12:22 these women, of this woman and child and little girl, that he

12:26 really became interested in it. And that sort of prompted him to

12:29 do a a much longer form case on it and report on it.

12:35 And then this was actually the the case was the first thing

12:39 that he recorded for his Life and Crimes podcast.

12:41 It wasn't the first one that he put out, but it was the first

12:43 one that he recorded. Yes.

12:44 And this case really has a a real special spot in his heart.

12:48 I think so, yeah. Well, because it's unsolved, we

12:52 can say that at this point. Absolutely.

12:53 Yeah. So I mean, I think it's really

12:54 intrigued him of like, well, why isn't it solved?

12:57 What's what's held it back and can can we find something here?

13:00 So yeah, yeah. I mean, all props to him, like

13:03 to, you know, really put some attention on it because, yeah,

13:06 it hasn't had the attention it deserves to try and get a

13:08 result. And surely someone knows

13:10 something. Yeah.

13:12 And I feel like like there's not a lot of other media who've even

13:16 given this the light of day. We can get kind of get into that

13:19 a little bit later on. Yeah, Yeah.

13:20 But it's, it's really his story, I feel.

13:24 So Yeah, please. Yeah.

13:26 Jump across on, jump across on to Latin Crimes after you finish

13:28 listening to this. And yeah.

13:31 And then really give it a listen because yeah, I just love

13:34 everything he puts out. Oh, so good.

13:36 He's he's a really great source of information.

13:38 And he's just, he's so easy to listen to.

13:40 Like memory. Oh, yeah.

13:41 Phenomenal. Yeah.

13:43 I, I just, I it blows my mind. He blows my mind.

13:46 I think, and again, I think something I relate to with him

13:48 and his podcast too, is he's a journalist and and everything,

13:52 but he does not his his his podcasts aren't or don't appear

13:56 to be scripted. As you say, his memory is

13:59 amazing. You know, he has absolute

14:01 genuine knowledge of these crimes and just speaks to them.

14:05 So his podcast really, I don't know, just really because that's

14:07 why we do ours the way we do in terms of like the non scripted.

14:09 We really wanted something out there that wasn't as scripted as

14:12 many others and that's why why we chose to do that.

14:15 But I I relate to him as he's an unscripted format too.

14:18 Like great, easier to listen to I find.

14:20 Yeah, he's, he's awesome. Yeah.

14:22 All right, so this let's get into it, Yeah.

14:27 Let's get in SO. Margaret Christine Nelson was

14:31 born on the 3rd of June in 1949 and she was born to her mum and

14:36 dad, Mr. and Mrs. Nelson. I actually can't remember their

14:39 names off the top of my head. I've got them written down

14:40 somewhere. We'll get to it.

14:42 But she was born into a really lovely, loving family.

14:46 She had a sister and a brother and just grew up in like a very

14:52 typical 40s, fifties sort of era Australia, like, you know,

14:57 Australian sort of family. They were very close and

15:00 remained close throughout throughout their lives.

15:04 Margaret met a man by the name of Don Tap sort of, you know,

15:09 later in or actually I think she was pretty quite young when she

15:13 met him. They fell in love and got

15:16 married and they had a son named Justin who was, I think he was

15:21 born in 1970. And then they had a little girl

15:25 named Shauna Lee Tapp born on the 6th of March in 1975.

15:31 And they lived in a very comfortable life together.

15:35 But as time went on, Margaret and Don did split.

15:41 It was a very amicable split I believe.

15:44 And they still kept in very regular contact.

15:48 The kids had regular contact with Don and you know, it was

15:53 just sort of venue normal. Now was was this sort of split

15:58 marriage and and that sort of arrangement.

16:02 They so but at the time of the murder.

16:05 So the murders occurred on the 7th of August in 1984.

16:10 Yep. This time of like thinking back

16:14 to Australia at in 1984. Why are you looking at me like

16:18 that before I was born? What was it?

16:19 Oh, right. I probably can't comment to it,

16:22 but would you like to? Well, well, I what if I was old

16:25 enough to remember? I guess I would have been 3, but

16:32 I mean having said that, the area that this this occurred in

16:34 is very local to us. I mean more so probably these

16:38 days I guess then when I was, you know where where we grew up

16:41 initially. But the area, it's very outer

16:44 eastern suburbia. It's right at the base of the

16:47 Dandenong's furniture gully and all these sort of scenes that

16:50 we'll talk about through this very picturesque kind of area.

16:53 I guess in some ways, you know, at the bottom of the Dandenong's

16:55 there really beautiful. But like at the time it was

16:58 growing. It was a growth area, very much

17:02 middle class, lower socioeconomic status, like kind

17:05 of area of like family, young families pushing.

17:08 The outskirts of the city limits as well at that time, I believe.

17:11 So in terms of like development through there, yeah, it was yes,

17:16 sort of at that outer edge of of Melbourne we're.

17:19 Talking about, you know, city limits, the growth, that area

17:21 too. I mean, Margaret, Margaret's

17:22 parents, they were so the original all of that area was

17:25 originally Orchards. So I remember from where I live,

17:28 even I lived as a kid, that was all even further in was was

17:31 orchards. It was a vast area and her

17:34 parents actually original settlers to the the area and

17:38 they had actually, they actually owned orchard farms in the area.

17:41 So they had been there, you know, generationally.

17:44 So, you know, that's they, they still owned a fairly decent

17:47 property in the area, but everything had been divvied up

17:50 on those lands and, you know, and we're now becoming housing

17:53 estates. Yeah.

17:53 So I mean, the, it was, yeah, a really growth area.

17:57 I guess, you know, now we're moving further out again.

17:59 You know, you think of the similar sort of area these days

18:02 would be I guess more your sort of packing of packing of

18:05 Cranbourne areas sort of thing. That's further out again.

18:07 But you know, that would that's what Ferntree Gully in that area

18:10 would have been at the time. Yeah, Yeah.

18:11 So new housing estates and things popping up and yeah,

18:15 really families making a go of. It, and that's what I was going

18:18 to say. I think it attracted a lot of

18:19 young families, people who are just starting to establish

18:22 themselves. Obviously, it was a bit cheaper

18:24 to be that sort of that bit further out into these new

18:27 areas. So, but then having said that, I

18:29 feel like the Dandenongs was always quite well established,

18:32 yes. And so there was still a lot

18:35 going on out there in that respect.

18:37 Other train lines, all that sort of stuff by that stage and

18:39 that's things like that. It's all, yeah, all the public

18:41 transport was sort of sorted and was there.

18:43 Yeah, for sure. Yeah.

18:45 So I guess we'll get into actually what happened.

18:49 On the night and and. We'll go from there.

18:51 So on this particular night, Margaret had agreed, or had

18:57 actually invited a friend of hers, a man by the name of Jim

19:01 Rowlands, to take her to the opera.

19:04 Now, Margaret was an incredible woman, an absolutely incredible

19:08 woman. I'm just getting to a little bit

19:09 of a background about her actually, before we get into

19:11 this, because I think this just gives a bit of an idea of who

19:14 she was. Who she was, yeah, for.

19:15 Sure, she was a nurse, and she was actually at the time

19:18 studying law part time. At Monash Uni.

19:21 At Monash, her idea was to go into sort of medical malpractice

19:25 law because she obviously would then have the experience with

19:28 the medical side and then. Great idea.

19:30 Great. Yeah.

19:31 Incredible idea. Yeah she was such an intelligent

19:34 and she's such a go getter of a woman.

19:36 She was learning how to drive semi trailers because an

19:40 ex-boyfriend of hers, actually her there, they owned a, some

19:45 kind of crop farm in South Australia.

19:48 And over the summer she'd offered to go and help them, I

19:52 don't know, truck their crops to wherever they needed to go.

19:54 Yeah. So she needed to learn how to

19:56 drive a semi trailer. So a semi truck, semi trailer.

19:59 So she was learning that. Yeah.

20:02 She was involved in lots and lots of different sort of like

20:06 community things. And she had a lot of.

20:10 Men interested in her, she was very social and she was very

20:14 much like into maybe the dating scene and.

20:18 She kept her options open. You go.

20:21 Well, yes, she did. She did have her eye on one

20:25 particular man, but we'll get to him in a minute.

20:27 Yeah. So, yeah, her life was very rich

20:30 and very full. And then obviously, she also had

20:33 her two children who took up a lot of her time.

20:37 At the time of the murder, though, her son Justin was

20:41 actually living with her parents.

20:42 Yeah. And did you find out why?

20:45 No, I didn't. No, I couldn't find any reason

20:48 as to why. What that?

20:49 Just I just wondered whether it was like maybe he was closer to

20:51 their high school or something. I really.

20:53 Don't know because I didn't live far away from her it wasn't

20:56 there was a distance thing of like oh he wants to particularly

20:58 be at a particular school or whatever straight away.

21:00 Not sure and yeah I mean he's. That's a tragic story in itself,

21:03 then. Yeah, it.

21:04 Really is. Yeah.

21:05 So anyway, he wasn't obviously at the home in Kelvin, Dr.

21:10 Ferntree Gully at the time. But on this particular day, this

21:14 man by the name of Jim Rollins, he was a Carpenter, apparently,

21:17 a very, very lovely man. Yeah.

21:19 Jim and his wife were actually neighbors of Don and Margaret

21:26 when they were married and lived together.

21:28 And so that's how how they met. And Don was keen on Margaret.

21:35 I think so, Jim. Sorry, Jim.

21:37 Sorry. Yeah.

21:38 Sorry, Jim. By this stage, Jim's wife had

21:41 long passed away from cancer, which is very, very sad.

21:46 But yeah, so he decided. I mean, they used to see each

21:51 other socially. I don't think they were in a

21:52 relationship by any stretch. I think he might have wanted to,

21:55 yeah. But I don't think Margaret was

21:57 really in that frame of mind with him at the time.

22:00 But she was, I think all props to her like that, you know, if

22:02 someone was offering like, you know, opera tickets and things

22:05 are to take her out, she wasn't gonna go, oh, no, I'm not

22:07 interested. I'm not gonna go.

22:08 She's like, yeah, sure, let's go.

22:09 Like, yeah, she just was that covering opportunity that came

22:11 her way. And why not?

22:12 Like, yeah. Yeah, so that night she'd

22:14 actually arranged for Shawna to go to the next door neighbors,

22:18 his house, to be babysat while she went out to the opera.

22:21 Cuz at this stage Shawna was only 9 years of age.

22:24 And so Jim knocks on the door at I think it was like 630 or

22:29 something. In the evening.

22:31 In the evening to pick her up and he there's no answer now

22:36 Margaret's car was in the driveway.

22:38 He could see the newspaper was on the front doorstep and he was

22:43 like, oh, this is really weird because he was she was expecting

22:45 him, but you know, they. Confirmed it the night before.

22:47 They literally had a phone call to each other only like 24 hours

22:50 prior to say this was the arrangement.

22:52 Yeah. So what Jim knew is that the

22:56 back door was, the lock was actually broken.

22:58 So he'd been there enough to to know this something that the

23:01 kids had done, something, bloody kids, they'd done something to

23:04 wreck the lock or whatever, and it hadn't been repaired yet.

23:07 So he went around to the back of the house and sort of knocked

23:10 again and then still no answer, let himself in and was calling

23:15 out. And he went into Margaret's

23:18 bedroom and he saw her lying on the bed and he walked over to

23:24 her and he knew immediately just by looking at her that he that

23:27 she was deceased. He then runs out of the house,

23:30 goes to the next door neighbors because I think because Margaret

23:33 had said that they were looking after Shawna that night and he

23:37 went in there and he was like, is Shauna here?

23:39 Is Shauna here? And they're like, no, she's not

23:40 here yet. So he he's like, oh God.

23:43 And he runs back and he goes into Shauna's room and she's

23:47 lying deceased in her bed too. So he then runs back.

23:51 Well, by this stage, the neighbors have kind of followed

23:53 him and they're trying to find out what the hell is going on.

23:56 They've gone back to the neighbour's house and called

23:58 000. The local police attended.

24:00 And then not, not there, not very long after that, the

24:04 homicide squad arrived and there were two detectives that were

24:07 apparently on their way home and who lived out that way.

24:10 So they weren't actually that far, that far away.

24:13 So I guess by this stage, they've made a crime scene.

24:18 And the first thing that is evident to the police is that

24:23 Margaret and Shawna had both been strangled, and that was

24:28 kind of the most obvious thing that they could see.

24:31 Yeah. So where the where are we now?

24:39 So basically the police then? I mean, it's getting sort of

24:43 getting to be a bit later at night.

24:45 They, it's really hard to start making inquiries.

24:47 So they've actually just cordoned off the house.

24:50 Yeah. And I guess they've actually

24:52 stationed 2 uniformed police officers at the house.

24:55 Yeah, that becomes important a little bit later.

24:57 Yes. So next day comes, obviously

25:01 they've notified Justin and the family and the mom and dad and

25:06 Don. They have Justin and the mum and

25:10 dad straight away, Margaret's mum and dad straight away, Mr.

25:13 and Mrs. Nelson. And they know they had no

25:16 involvement. Yeah, Justin went to the crime

25:19 scene and saw the bodies. As they were like, really?

25:23 I didn't know that. That's awful.

25:24 Horrible. I think he insisted on.

25:27 It yeah, I can get it, I can get it, but at the same time.

25:31 How traumatic. Yeah, yeah.

25:33 Poor boy. Absolutely.

25:37 And they've actually also, I believe that night they've

25:40 gotten in contact with Don Tap, who'd he'd actually remarried by

25:44 this point and he was Alibide and.

25:47 And yeah, I mean, obviously he's almost at that point with like

25:50 prime suspect number one. Yeah, in that just, you know,

25:53 that's what can happen that that, but they alibide him very

25:56 quickly. He was, he was ruled out very

25:57 quick and he was apparently very helpful in terms of, you know,

26:00 didn't hold back anything was, yeah, very open, honest and they

26:03 brought him out very quickly. Yeah, yeah, I guess at this

26:05 stage the number one suspect was actually Jim.

26:09 Well, yeah, that's true. Yes, the opera.

26:11 Yeah, opera date because, you know, he he found.

26:14 He found the bodies, Yeah. Yeah, but again, I believe they

26:17 interrogated him that night and again they questioned him more

26:20 than once, yes, But again, they got to a point where they were

26:23 like, oh, we're satisfied beyond.

26:25 You know, they were having that alibi.

26:28 They they brought him out very. They were, yeah, that's right.

26:32 I, I don't actually know exactly how they did it, but they were

26:34 able to prove that that it wasn't him.

26:36 Yeah. So we've got to now think where

26:40 the police are at. They're like, OK, we've got

26:42 these two dead bodies. They know that on Shawna's night

26:48 dress. So on the 9 year old little

26:50 girl's night dress, Seaman was found not on Margaret at all.

26:56 So the bodies have obviously gone for autopsy to determine

27:00 their manner of death. And they both died by

27:02 strangulation. Yeah, so same manner of death.

27:06 I guess the police assume at this point that Margaret was

27:10 probably killed first. Yes, because.

27:12 So she couldn't protect Shauna. Yeah, that makes sense.

27:17 But that makes logical sense. So to me that makes me think,

27:20 well then this was a child predator.

27:22 That's that to me, the way that was done.

27:24 And also like, yeah, the fact that they've that that's been

27:27 thought through of that to them, you're less likely to wake the

27:31 child than the parent. You know, you like your parents

27:34 more on alert on those, that sort of thing that you know,

27:36 that you're gonna, if you can get rid of the adult, the

27:39 child's then. Yeah, yeah, very vulnerable.

27:42 Yeah, absolutely. Now, the thing that I really

27:46 don't like about the rhetoric in this, and this is not from

27:48 Andrew Rule at all, but he does make comment of it as well

27:52 because I feel like it's, I don't know, it's out there.

27:57 So it needs to be mentioned, But because Margaret went on dates

28:01 with men and enjoyed herself socially with men.

28:04 And not necessarily single men. No, but I feel as though she's

28:12 almost blamed by some people. Yeah, as if she's brought this

28:17 on herself. Or something.

28:18 There's a real line where it's sort of, I've heard it in

28:20 numerous places that the reason this hasn't been solved is

28:23 because there were too many suspects, which that annoys me

28:27 because you, you compare it to a case, say, off the top of my

28:31 head, like Claremont murders. Yeah.

28:33 So what, you're willing to like DNA test every cabbie in the

28:36 entirety of like Perth, you know, to find the killer.

28:40 But in this scenario, you weren't willing to like just it

28:43 just, you know, wade through the suspects.

28:46 I don't see the difference. It's how many suspects there

28:49 are. There's just, OK, well, then

28:50 you've got your work to do and get your work done.

28:52 Like it's not about, oh, well, that's just too many.

28:54 We can't deal with that because she was social and she had

28:57 plenty of people that were in her life.

29:00 What's the difference? And it's no one wants this.

29:03 No one would want to bring this on themselves.

29:05 No, she was as you said, she was just a social woman.

29:07 She lived a fulfilling life. Good honour, who gives?

29:10 Like, OK, it's it's there's an ethical or moral question about

29:15 dating known married men. Yeah, but that's not that's I

29:18 mean, you don't, you know, you deserve to die.

29:21 Yeah. You know or deserve to be

29:22 murdered. But for a daughter then like,

29:24 you know, like how can they just But then.

29:26 One of the one of the articles or no, it wasn't even an

29:29 article. It might have even I've been on

29:30 Reddit to fucking hell. But you know, people were

29:33 saying, well, you know, maybe she hadn't have been

29:35 promiscuous, that maybe that wouldn't have invited or they

29:40 wouldn't have seen Shawna. And then.

29:43 But I'm like, no, this is not. You can't.

29:45 Live under a rock, but also. This is not Margaret's fault.

29:48 She didn't do this. Do you know what?

29:50 If there's people like that, then they just shouldn't exist.

29:52 It's 100%. That's it really.

29:54 Fucking pisses me off. We should be able to freely live

29:58 and do our lives without the threat of someone being murdered

30:01 or raped. Or yeah, that's right.

30:04 Nah, fuck it. So let's have a chat about,

30:06 yeah, potential suspects. Yeah, cool.

30:09 So the first suspect that I wanna talk about is the Doctor

30:13 Who bought her the house. OK.

30:15 Yes. Doctor Bradke.

30:16 Dr. Bradke. Yeah.

30:17 So Doctor Bradke was a married man and he had a family and he,

30:24 so Margaret worked at the William Angliss Hospital and he

30:27 was a an obstetrician there. Yeah.

30:30 And he, they obviously met at work and started a relationship.

30:35 And according to Margaret, as in according to Margaret's best

30:39 girlfriends, her confidants, she loved him she wanted.

30:44 I think she's a little bit obsessed with him.

30:45 The. Works with him she wanted

30:47 everything with him and he must have felt similarly because he

30:53 bought her that house in Kelvin drive in Ferntree gully while.

30:56 Still married like I'm still married.

30:58 Married a man the whole time. Like he.

31:00 He made the choice. He bought her a house.

31:02 He bought her a house. Now, I guess, somewhat

31:05 tragically or no, definitely tragically, he was actually

31:08 racing from some where. Had he been?

31:12 I can't actually remember where he'd been, but he was going from

31:15 somewhere back to the Angles Hospital one night to deliver a

31:18 baby. So the Angles hospital is the

31:20 hospital in an upper fentry gully, So it's not far from

31:23 where they live, very close by, like their local hospital, yeah.

31:27 So he was actually coming down the mountain.

31:28 So coming from the Dandenongs into the gully to the hospital.

31:32 Yeah. And he lost control of his car

31:35 and crushed it. And he died on the way to

31:39 deliver this baby. So in in the fallout of all of

31:44 that, Yeah. This was, this was before

31:46 Margaret's and Shawna's murder, by the way.

31:48 Yes, this. Was a year before two years.

31:50 Before 2 years. Two years, yeah.

31:52 In the fallout of all of that, his wife has then discovered

31:56 that he owned this property. Did she already?

31:59 She knew that was the affair. She knew about the affair.

32:01 Did she know about the property? In that?

32:02 She didn't. Know about the property?

32:04 Yeah. And so anyway, there ended up

32:07 being a bit of a legal battle because, yeah, Margaret was

32:09 that, well, he bought this for. Me.

32:10 Well, no. She, Margaret actually thought

32:12 was under the impression or what she put into the court documents

32:15 was that in his will he had left that house to her.

32:19 However, in the wills that were being presented, that was not

32:22 included. In had he left her half the

32:24 house? Or something.

32:25 No, so no so according to her, she was being left that house,

32:28 right. But the wife at what Margaret

32:32 accused was that his his wife destroyed that document and that

32:36 will. Oh, OK.

32:38 And so the in the court battle of it, the judge ended up ruling

32:43 that she had a claim and So what he awarded was half of it not

32:48 full. Yeah.

32:49 OK. Because of the they're being,

32:51 you know, two parties having two different versions of the of

32:55 events. Yeah.

32:56 OK. He awarded her half of the

32:58 house, Right. And then Margaret bought out the

33:01 other half. Yeah.

33:01 OK. Yeah, Yeah.

33:03 So she paid out his widow? Yes.

33:05 For the other half. The other half, yeah.

33:07 So yeah, that's how that went. Right.

33:09 OK. That makes sense, I guess, yeah.

33:11 But yeah, obviously had to go to court over that.

33:13 So yeah, it was quite a nasty court battle.

33:16 Between the and how horrible that would be as his wife.

33:19 Absolutely. I can see absolutely.

33:21 Yeah, yeah, that would be awful. Be furious.

33:23 Has your husband died in very tragic circumstances?

33:28 Yeah. But then to go and, like

33:29 potentially jeopardize her financial future by doing that,

33:32 too, I can understand why she battled that out totally.

33:34 Yeah. A. 100%, yeah, 100%.

33:37 So one of the suspects in this case then is her, is the wife.

33:42 Yeah. K Bradke.

33:43 Yeah. And what was, I guess the the

33:48 suspicion was, or I guess somebody's theory was that she'd

33:51 hired a hitman. Yeah.

33:52 To murder Margaret. Now look, to me that seems

33:57 really far fetched. And the matter was resolved in

34:00 that Margaret had already bought her out by this point.

34:02 It had been settled. It had been a couple of years

34:05 and things are kind of like very, very settled.

34:08 Well, that and like it was pretty bizarre situation.

34:13 Have you heard this story around how obsessed I think Margaret

34:16 was with him? Go on.

34:18 So there was a point where they would obviously together and she

34:21 absolutely got really fixated on that.

34:24 She was like, no, you need to leave your wife, right?

34:27 Margaret rocked up on their to their house, yelling, saying you

34:32 need to come and live with me, you know, like and leave your

34:35 wife. She threw a rock through the

34:37 window and then stripped naked on the lawn to like get his

34:41 attention to like, you know, come and live with her and leave

34:44 his family. He he then Doctor Brad Key,

34:46 obviously, and then like had to lock his child, his and wife in

34:51 a backroom and said to them, you stay there, I'll go sort her out

34:53 and take her home. And he had to go and drove her

34:56 home and drop her off. And I mean, wouldn't it's been

35:00 their neighbor? It's interesting.

35:02 Yeah. Apparently she like lay down in

35:04 the bushes or something so he couldn't get her.

35:05 Yeah, but also I did you see it like in that same report?

35:11 I think we've probably both heard the same thing.

35:13 She also keyed his car. He had this brand new red sports

35:17 car, a Datsun or something. And she got really angry with

35:21 you one day, so she keyed all the way down the side of it.

35:24 I mean, I don't like that. No, that's that's destructive

35:26 for no reason. That there's there's a

35:28 consistent amount of kind of similar behaviour in her and

35:32 people have commented that she could treat them pretty shit

35:36 when she wanted to as well. Like, and she was pretty sparky.

35:38 Yeah, yeah. Fiery redhead was sort of

35:41 mentioned quite a few times in the stuff I was reading about

35:43 it. Yep, Yep.

35:45 I see it. Yep.

35:46 I don't see it. OK, next suspect.

35:49 Should we go into? Who should we do next?

35:52 Should we do Ian Cook? Yeah, sure.

35:54 OK, yeah, so, oh, actually, let's do Tony Blackwell first.

35:58 The brother-in-law. Oh yeah, yeah.

36:00 On the day of, on the day that the bodies were discovered that

36:06 during the day, that day, Margaret's sister's boyfriend

36:12 went to the house. Now there is I could not find

36:15 anywhere. It's not why he went.

36:17 It's not in the police reports, it's nowhere.

36:19 It's no one knows why he was there, but he was there.

36:22 But he was there. So he rocks up.

36:24 He sees that Margaret's cars in the driveway.

36:26 The newspaper was on the lawn at this point.

36:28 I think he contextually that time though, too, I can say

36:32 because I grew up, I guess more in that time.

36:34 Yeah, If you drove past someone's house that you knew

36:38 and their car was in the driveway, you'd not go and knock

36:40 on the door. Yeah, you know what I mean?

36:41 It was more that way, I guess, So I can come at it from an

36:44 angle of these days you wouldn't do that.

36:46 Like, I don't know, it's just not like that, no.

36:48 You always text someone so they've got time to at least, I

36:50 don't know, shovel their shit under the couch or something.

36:53 Or in a cupboard. Absolutely.

36:55 Yeah. No, definitely.

36:56 You just if you. Yeah.

36:57 It drove past someone's house and their car was in the Oh,

36:58 you're not gonna do it. Hey, have a chat and have a

37:00 coffee. I don't know.

37:01 Yeah, look, maybe it was that. Yeah.

37:03 I mean, I know he was eventually eliminated, so yeah, it probably

37:06 was fairly innocent. Yeah, But he's picked up the

37:09 newspaper and put it on the porch, knocked on the window,

37:12 and he's like, I knew they were there because the curtains were

37:15 drawn and but he was like, I just assumed they were sick or

37:18 sleeping. Yeah, slept in and unwell, so he

37:20 just left, yeah. Not thinking anything more of

37:23 it. So he was.

37:25 He was also illuminated. Yeah, yeah.

37:28 So that was why when Jim Jim arrived, Jim Rollins that he's

37:32 found the newspaper had been like obviously was on the on the

37:34 doorstep, not on the driveway. Yeah.

37:36 So that that cleared that up for the police of that that

37:39 occurring. So yeah, we've got all, it's all

37:42 aligning. It is all aligning.

37:44 We've also got then Ian Cook. Now this guy is interesting.

37:50 Is he your front runner? I don't want to say front

37:58 runner, but I want to say potentially involved.

38:00 OK, he was my front runner, Yeah, until I have now developed

38:04 a very solid theory. So I actually don't think he had

38:06 anything to do with it, although I don't think he's completely.

38:09 Innocent. No, that's more probably where

38:10 my head's at with him, yeah. So Ian Cook was a very at this

38:14 time was a very recently retired police officer.

38:17 Yeah, when I say retired, he was medically discharged.

38:21 From what they call boarded out, yeah.

38:22 So this is a term they used to use back in the day.

38:25 Kind of feel like sometimes we should bring these sorts of

38:27 things back, but it was a way of getting people out of the force

38:31 potentially. I mean, potentially people were

38:33 medically legitimately discharged.

38:35 I mean, get injured in the line of duty, you know, you know,

38:37 that's that's completely fair. But this was a term that they

38:40 could use to basically go, we need to get you out.

38:43 But obviously if we tell you you're sacked then that looks

38:47 bad on you. We can keep this all quiet and

38:49 board you out. And basically that meant they

38:52 were still entitled to their police pension, yeah.

38:54 And get all the benefits of if you're retiring that kind of

38:57 situation or medically discharged from it, but but

39:00 yeah, but not the label of it that you're being fired and.

39:03 Sacked. So he was in his early 50s.

39:05 I think he's like 54 at the time.

39:07 Yeah, when this happened and and he this boarding out had only

39:12 very recently happened. Now he did have a connection to

39:16 Margaret in that he was part of the same Masonic Lodge that

39:21 Margaret's dad belonged to. And a lot of police officers at

39:25 the time were Masons and were Free Masons and they especially

39:32 homicide detectives. So it was a very intertwined and

39:36 linked sort of network of people.

39:39 And this Ian Cook, who wasn't actually a detective or

39:43 anything, I think he was just a senior constable.

39:46 He was a general duties police officer.

39:49 But because he was a Mason, he'd met a lot of these homicide cops

39:52 and whatever. So back when we were just

39:54 talking before about them, the police the night of the murder,

39:58 cordoning it off and putting, popping a couple of uniformed

40:00 police officers there. He actually rocked up to the

40:04 scene, this Ian Cook and he was like, Oh well, I actually left a

40:07 book inside. I'm just going to go and showed

40:09 him his badge, which was which was not valid anymore.

40:13 He. Should have had it with.

40:14 I don't. Know if they'd take them away.

40:16 I know. Cops do keep them, yeah, but.

40:18 Like yeah, but it's not valid. Like he should not have done

40:20 that. He wasn't a A serving.

40:22 Police officer would be illegal in that he falsely represented

40:25 himself for. Sure.

40:27 So he's gone in because he said he lent Margaret a book.

40:30 Didn't want to get wrapped up in this.

40:32 Yeah, he didn't want to have to go into an inquest or anything.

40:34 Yeah, just because what would be the point in that?

40:36 I've got nothing to do with it. He's gone in there.

40:38 Now. The inference is that he's gone

40:40 in there to pop his fingerprints everywhere and have a legitimate

40:43 reason for doing so. And so if his fingerprints were

40:45 found somewhere, he'd be like, oh.

40:47 Yeah, well, that's 'cause I go there all the time.

40:48 I went to pick up my book. I went to.

40:49 Pick up my book, yeah. OK, he's really sauce.

40:54 That I, I find that SUS and there's other aspects of him

40:57 that are very unusual. And I mean, look, we don't know

41:00 whether he was boarded out correctly and that he was for a

41:03 reason or whether there was a dodgy reason as to why.

41:06 No, that is not known. But what an odd, I just find

41:10 that, I mean, that would never happen today, never that they

41:12 would cross that line of of a crime scene.

41:15 Very much. Will there be at least a record

41:17 of who'd been in and out and all that?

41:19 Nothing like that was taken at the time, no.

41:22 Or yeah, I don't like. It I don't like it, no.

41:25 But and this poor uniformed police officer wouldn't have

41:28 known any different, probably. Well, he would have.

41:30 Looked to them as a 54 year old man.

41:32 Oh, he's more senior than me, you know, like, oh, he's got the

41:35 badge on. Just to let him do what he do.

41:37 Yeah. No, I'll go.

41:39 No way. That would never happen to this

41:40 day. Yeah.

41:42 Okay, who have we got next? What about the driving

41:45 instructor? Yeah, the truck driver.

41:48 Yeah, the. Driving instructor.

41:49 Yeah, so he's an interesting character.

41:51 Do you know his name? I couldn't find his name

41:53 anywhere but. No, actually I don't think his

41:56 name is known. So most of the people who were

41:58 naming by name, it's because they're, well, either they've

42:01 been cleared and the names are out there, yeah.

42:03 Or because they're since deceased, Yes.

42:07 So Ian Cook is since. He's deceased, so we can.

42:09 Why we can name him? Because he still hasn't been

42:11 eliminated as a suspect. No, no.

42:15 So the truck driver who was teaching Margaret how to drive,

42:20 apparently he had put some pretty hard word on her and very

42:24 much unwanted from by Margaret, but but she continued to want to

42:28 point out driving lessons. He was offering her driving

42:30 lessons with that like for free because he was very keen.

42:36 And so she was like, well, I'll take the free driving lessons,

42:38 which was what we're talking about.

42:39 Like she wasn't, she wasn't shy in terms of like going I'll, you

42:41 know, I don't want to think give him any ideas.

42:44 So I'll back off and not take my free driving lessons.

42:47 She's like, fuck that. I've taken the free driving

42:48 lessons. So you can think what he wants.

42:50 I love that about it. So yeah, she was doing that.

42:53 But he was married now when he was interviewed with his wife in

42:59 the same room. Bizarre, bizarre.

43:01 And of course he's not going to be honest about his thoughts of

43:04 her. And I know, so I do, I query

43:06 that because he's then been ruled out in terms of of this or

43:10 no, sorry. He hasn't been ruled out because

43:13 so he in his interview said to the police that he's never been

43:16 in the house at all. Now, his fingerprints were found

43:20 inside that house. So that's interesting.

43:23 Yeah. I think it's probably worth

43:25 noting at this point as well that back in the day, back in

43:28 1984, DNA was not a thing. So a lot of the investigations

43:33 surrounded fingerprints. They DNA samples were collected.

43:37 Yeah, there was hair, some hairs that were found, some and

43:40 obviously the semen found on her night gown at that was it.

43:43 Wasn't it wasn't like, you know, there was a huge amount of other

43:47 forensic evidence collected. It was mostly just fingerprints.

43:49 Yeah. And so the fact that he lied

43:51 about being in her house. But then as you said, his wife

43:54 was there. So yeah, of course, like I feel.

43:56 Like you take him down to the station and have a proper

43:59 conversation with the bloke. Yeah.

44:00 I mean, he could have been easily ruled out because he

44:03 could have said, Oh yeah, no, I used to go and have coffee

44:05 because I was pretty keen on her and I was trying to, you know,

44:07 but I mean, it would never went anywhere.

44:08 Whatever. Say what he's going to say and

44:10 be honest so they can rule him out rather than sitting in front

44:14 of his wife going no, I've never been in the house.

44:15 No, no, no, no. Yeah.

44:17 Like that's a bit. That's stupid on their behalf to

44:19 me, Yeah. Another suspect was a work

44:24 colleague of Margaret's brother. So they actually worked for the

44:29 Knox City Council in what did they do?

44:32 I think they did like maybe hard rubbish collection or something.

44:37 Or maintenance or something. Like that, Yeah.

44:38 Oh, yeah. No, sorry.

44:39 It was maintenance because. So this bloke who worked with

44:44 Margaret's brother was a known criminal.

44:48 He'd done bad things in the past and then subsequently was after,

44:53 well, after this was fired from the council, his council job

44:56 because he would go around and knock fire hydrants over with

45:01 the truck only to then be called out to repair them after hours.

45:05 So he'd get like, you know. Heaps after hours, yeah.

45:07 Money, yeah. So council being dodgy?

45:12 Council workers what? No shade to all the councilors

45:16 who do the right thing. So, but this guy had did have a

45:20 criminal history. He had helped Margaret's brother

45:25 move furniture into Margaret's house.

45:27 So he knew the layout of the house.

45:29 He knew that she lived there with Shawna.

45:31 The one thing that the police did sort of find that was that

45:35 obviously the front door was locked now.

45:37 So they did think that this person had to be either well

45:40 known to Margaret or known to the house, because whoever

45:45 entered went through that back door where they knew that lock

45:48 was broken. Yeah.

45:48 And there was no sign of struggle inside.

45:50 No the house. So they, they believe Margaret

45:53 and Shawna were in bed asleep when when the attack happened,

45:57 but no other signs of struggle within the house.

45:59 So yeah, I think whoever did this absolutely must have known

46:03 that the back door was broken because there was no other signs

46:05 of forced entry or anything like.

46:07 That so that's why it's so that's why how he became a

46:09 suspect and that he he knew the the house and potentially then

46:12 obviously knew that the back door was broken.

46:14 Yeah, interesting to know in terms of her brother Lindsay, he

46:19 has vocally said that he has not He has not been ruled out.

46:24 He's never been questioned by police like so.

46:26 DNA's never been. Taken, never been taken.

46:28 So he is a bit frustrated by that with the police that he

46:32 feels like we. Haven't even taken Margaret's

46:35 brother or Shauna's uncle's DNA. Yeah.

46:38 To compare that to the semen that was found today, Yeah.

46:41 Like, I'm talking 2025. You could actually be going

46:45 through and getting before all these people die.

46:47 Yeah. Go and get, go and get that.

46:49 Get it. Like he just feels like, I mean,

46:51 he's, you know, innocent and he's like, I'm, I'm here to be,

46:53 you know, DNA tested. And I wouldn't be if I was, you

46:55 know, guilty. But why wouldn't you do that to

46:58 rule me out for 100%? Yeah.

46:59 Because then you're, you know, you're getting that pool of

47:02 people smaller of who you're looking at because at the

47:04 moment, if they're not looking at me like he was, he sort of

47:06 said, if you're not looking at me and getting me eliminated,

47:08 who else are you not looking at and getting eliminating?

47:11 So yeah, potentially there's lots of people that haven't been

47:14 looked into enough like. Oh, I think that's.

47:17 And I think even the list that we've got haven't been looked

47:19 into close enough, as we just said, with not interviewing a

47:21 guy without his wife present. Yeah.

47:23 There's so many, so many. Things in there.

47:25 Yeah. So the next suspects, I suppose,

47:29 and again, that none of these men have been eliminated and

47:34 there's some really suspect things that have happened since

47:36 is neighbors. Yes.

47:38 So at the very end of Kelvin Drive, where Kelvin Drive meets

47:41 Ferntree Gully Rd. on the corner.

47:43 So Burwood Highway. Oh, Burwood Hwy.

47:44 Sorry. Yeah, just I think it was 3 or 4

47:49 houses away from Margaret and Shawna.

47:52 Yeah. They lived a family who had lots

47:55 of boys. And when I say boys, they were

47:57 aged, I think between about, at the time, aged between about 14

48:01 and 24. And also living on that property

48:06 in a caravan was the sister's boyfriend, now the youngest of

48:12 those boys, used to mow Margaret's lawn for her and

48:16 tinker with her car if it needed.

48:18 AI don't know, oil change or something.

48:20 Yeah. And he was a weird kid, like a

48:24 very odd child. And so the other brothers, they

48:28 were all a bit rough, These, these this family.

48:30 So the rough family on the street and they'd been involved

48:34 in petty crimes and that kind of thing.

48:36 And this youngest boy was very, very odd and he was almost

48:40 obsessed with Margaret. Yeah, vocally spoken to many

48:44 people on the street of what he thought of Margaret.

48:46 And he knew everything about her movements and what she did and

48:50 where she went and who she was with.

48:51 Like he was very, he was almost obsessed by her so.

48:56 But again, the police haven't ever eliminated any of them.

48:58 And the thing of note now is that the boyfriend of the sister

49:04 who lived in the caravan on that property, he has since been

49:07 charged with rape offences against children.

49:11 I didn't know that. So that was in the subsequent

49:15 years to Shawna and Margaret's murder.

49:18 But to me that's like a no brainer.

49:20 You fucking go and figure that out.

49:22 Absolutely. Go and DNA test him.

49:25 What is going on? I mean, I'm assuming they'd have

49:27 his DNA from the other rape charge.

49:29 Well, now, yeah, so. Yeah.

49:32 Yeah. Well, apparently the sample they

49:34 got of the semen is not a good enough sample that they can

49:38 eliminate by putting it into the database.

49:41 Yeah, but it's apparently good enough that they could, if they

49:43 got a fresh sample, they could. I don't know.

49:45 I didn't really understand that. That apparently can, because

49:48 obviously there's been some DNA evidence that's come up in the

49:51 yeah, that they have linked hurt people too.

49:53 Yeah, that apparently it's good enough to do some sort of

49:56 testing with for that, OK, but not good enough to go into a

49:59 database. Right.

50:00 Maybe they don't have enough of the profile.

50:02 That's yeah, not enough of the profile.

50:03 That's what it was, Yeah. OK, which I don't fully

50:05 understand. That's your domain a little bit

50:07 more. I haven't read about that so I'm

50:10 not gonna comment on it, but yeah, that kind of makes sense.

50:14 That makes a little bit more sense.

50:15 Yeah. OK, cool.

50:16 Yeah, Yeah. So they haven't eliminated all

50:19 those sorts of people that are. Yeah, I think they're definitely

50:22 worth being looked into. Yeah, for sure.

50:25 Yeah, for sure. I'm tipping the one you're

50:27 avoiding is the one that you're that keeps your front runner.

50:30 Do you have any others you want to talk about?

50:32 Not not other than the 2008, but.

50:35 We can get to that. We can get to that.

50:36 Yeah. So interesting this one came

50:41 about because this was an Andrew Rule find.

50:44 OK, so because Andrew Rule is so well connected, he'd gone over

50:50 to WA to do a story on something or other and while he was there

50:56 he met a journalist. He was doing a report with a

50:59 journalist who had previously lived in Melbourne.

51:02 And he said to Andrew, my brother-in-law is a cop and he's

51:10 got a theory on what happened with the taps.

51:14 Have you, do you know about this person and gave him a name?

51:19 We're going to call him Doctor X Yeah.

51:21 So. And Andrew was like, oh, no, I

51:24 actually haven't even heard that name in relation to this story.

51:26 Now, mind you, at this stage, he'd done this massive story at

51:29 the 20 year anniversary. Yeah.

51:30 And he's like, that name has. It's not in any of the

51:32 documentation. I have not heard that from any

51:35 of the witnesses that I've interviewed.

51:36 Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Yeah.

51:38 But when Andrew went back and looked through the archives now,

51:42 he had to do this manually, I believe, because they weren't

51:46 digitized. What he found was an entry.

51:50 It was actually a birth notice of a girl, a young, a baby that

51:56 was born on the 29th of December in, I think it was 19.

52:03 I think it was 1979, OK, so years before the murder, about

52:10 five years before the murder. And it was Doctor Bradkey and

52:15 Dr. X have welcomed, have delivered baby whatever into the

52:21 world. And it was a birth notice for

52:22 that baby. Yep.

52:24 Thank you to all the staff, Lily Manglis and blah, blah, blah,

52:26 blah. This was the only piece of

52:29 evidence that Andrew could find that linked the two doctors.

52:33 Well linked and then linked to Margaret.

52:34 And then Margaret. Yeah, so he has then gone.

52:39 OK, I'm going to investigate this a little bit further

52:42 because from what the journalist in WA had told Andrew, this

52:48 Doctor X had actually come up against some very serious

52:53 charges later, Well and truly after Margaret and Shawna's

52:56 murder. Yeah.

52:57 So he's gone and started looking into this.

53:00 And what he found is extraordinary.

53:04 This man, Doctor X, owned a property in French Gully.

53:09 Yeah, OK, that's fine. He was a very avid tennis

53:13 player. And back in the 80s, what did

53:16 everyone wear when they played tennis?

53:19 Dunlop Volley Tennis. Tennis.

53:21 Shoes, yeah. The one of the pieces of

53:24 evidence at the crime scene were perfect imprints of a size 11

53:33 Dunlop Volley tennis shoe and the imprints were made with onto

53:37 car or the clay that is used on tennis courts.

53:40 And he had a private tennis court at home that was onto car.

53:44 And he also played at Ferny Creek Tennis Club, which was

53:49 also onto car. Yeah.

53:50 And he had size 11 feet. Yeah.

53:52 OK. So all of this is like, oh, my

53:55 God. Oh, my God.

53:55 You know, this is all adding up now.

53:58 No one is saying that this man is the man who did it.

54:01 It's just there's a lot of evidence to go towards this and

54:04 he has never been interviewed or eliminated.

54:06 So this man, so Andrew was able to track down this man's son,

54:12 and his son hates him, absolutely hates him.

54:16 And he found out that that's because he had actually been

54:21 convicted of pedophilia. And this was, I think the

54:28 youngest girl was six years of age.

54:32 He also raped older women as well like.

54:35 Women, I think his age range was somewhere between 6:00 and 29.

54:38 I think was sort of, yeah, he, he kind of bounced between like

54:42 older, but not that old, like kind of women.

54:44 He didn't go. Yeah.

54:45 So he had such a reputation in Ferntree Gully.

54:48 He was AGP slash obstetrician, so he'd deliver at the Anglers

54:51 but he also had AGP practice. He had such a reputation that

54:55 women would not go and see him alone.

54:57 They would always take their husband or their friend or

55:00 somebody to go with him. You just can't even imagine it.

55:04 When the charges were brought against him for the rapes and

55:08 like the pedophilic behaviour, he actually moved to a clinic in

55:13 Saint Kilda pending charges and trial and all of that and I

55:16 believe there were victims there as well.

55:20 He has then moved to a border town, so I don't know exactly

55:24 where he lives to this day. As a known sex offender, he is

55:28 now living between a primary school and a skate park in this

55:32 border town. Andrew Rule says that he has

55:36 been there, he has spoken to the neighbors and spoken to the

55:39 people in this town and everybody knows who he is and

55:42 what he's done and they keep a very close eye on him.

55:45 They reckon that he reckons that if anyone saw him any when

55:47 you're a child, he'd end up in the Murray.

55:49 Yeah, well, how can he deserves it?

55:51 Yeah. So he's my front runner.

55:53 He's my Yeah. I think they they at the very

55:56 least, need to eliminate him. He's still alive.

55:59 Yeah. They need to at least at least

56:02 eliminate him. Yeah.

56:04 But he has never been questioned.

56:06 We know he knew Margaret. We know they work together.

56:09 They work together. We.

56:10 Know that he socialized with Doctor Brad Key.

56:15 They probably went out socially. And if he was a paedophile, he

56:18 would have seen Shauna. Yes, at at like they would have

56:22 gone to Margaret's house, picked her up, whatever.

56:24 Yeah, what the fuck. Like to me, this is a no brainer

56:28 that this absolutely needs to be thoroughly, thoroughly

56:32 investigated. Yeah, yeah, there's a lot more

56:34 to go into him. I yeah, I he's clearly a front

56:39 runner that needs to be looked into.

56:41 To me, I I just think there's so many.

56:43 The Dunlop Volley shoe imprints, just all of it.

56:47 He needs to be looked at. Absolutely.

56:49 My only thing with this now, Yep, is that our favorite, Ron

56:56 Iddles, So he's a Melbourne detective.

56:59 He's retired now but in 2014 as he was heading up the cold case

57:04 squad, he was handed this case to have a look at and I trust

57:09 Ron. Yeah.

57:11 And I dare say he would have looked at every angle of this.

57:14 He he did also give it to students at the Detective

57:19 Academy to look at and bring to him anything they they thought

57:22 needed to be looked into further.

57:24 And there still is nothing more. So I feel like if he has ruled

57:31 it, he's not ruled it out. It's not he's not been

57:33 eliminated. But surely he would have pulled

57:36 him in and had a conversation with him.

57:38 The the other thing that I find really interesting, so Shawna

57:41 went to Water View Primary School.

57:43 I don't believe they looked at any of the staff there.

57:46 I know the students there were gung ho at trying to find them.

57:49 There was that a lot of them they sort of got a bit of PTSD

57:52 from this, which absolutely be traumatized from hearing their

57:55 their classmate. I went through this, but I can

57:57 just imagine back in the day, them all of them getting on

57:59 their bikes and, you know, starting up a sleuth crew and

58:02 trying to find what find the clues and because they wanted to

58:05 know who had hurt their friend, their friend, you know, that's

58:08 awful so. She was a brownie, too.

58:10 Yeah. And I mean.

58:11 Again, another place where there could be some interesting people

58:16 around. Back in the day.

58:17 Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

58:19 So do you want to talk about the 2008?

58:21 Yeah. So in 2008, they did actually

58:23 arrest someone for this, which is was super exciting,

58:25 particularly for, you know, Margaret and Margaret Shawna's

58:29 family thinking that they might have an answer for this.

58:33 How so they they arrested a man by the name of, I'm going to get

58:37 his surname, Bosch Russell Gassar.

58:39 Yeah, I think that's how you say it.

58:41 Excellent. So he, they arrested him and

58:45 they arrested him based on DNA, that his DNA did connect him to

58:50 the DNA that was found on Shawna's nightgown.

58:54 But very quickly after him being arrested, they had to drop the

59:01 charges. He has not been cleared, I'll

59:04 say that. But he they have dropped the

59:06 charges due to the fact that the DNA was contaminated.

59:11 So apparently what has occurred was that his DNA was being

59:16 tested for something in the same lab where the stuff for Shawna

59:20 and Margaret was being tested and they think there was cross

59:23 contamination that created that. Yeah, so apparently the night

59:26 dress had been on the same table.

59:28 Yeah, or same workbench as his DNA sample, and it hadn't been

59:33 cleaned in between. Yeah, right.

59:35 And so they, the laboratory pretty quickly figured out that

59:40 they couldn't actually say definitively that his, it was

59:43 his DNA that was found on the night dress.

59:45 So yeah, they had to let him go. But as you said, they haven't.

59:50 They've never arrested him again over this, but they certainly

59:52 haven't eliminated. Him there, there was, I mean,

59:55 there was other evidence that they they've been released to

59:58 the public by any means that they had him, you know,

1:00:01 potentially linked to this, but not as extensively as the DNA.

1:00:04 Yeah. So I mean, this was kind of a

1:00:06 industry in 2008, this sort of became a bit of a a split in

1:00:10 terms of how DNA was being viewed because previous to this,

1:00:14 pretty much if there was DNA, you were done like whereas now

1:00:18 the way DNA is kind of viewed is that DNA is one thing, but you

1:00:21 need to have it lined up with other things as well.

1:00:23 You can't just have a case based solely on DNA.

1:00:26 So I think the other obviously then the other bits of evidence

1:00:29 they had on him. Were not enough to stand on

1:00:31 their own with dropping the DNA, but potentially with the DNA and

1:00:35 these other little bits that they could link him to the.

1:00:37 The scene was obviously and more than they were happy to arrest

1:00:41 him and charge him. Yeah.

1:00:43 But without that DNA then as well, they were like, Oh no, we

1:00:45 haven't got enough of a case here.

1:00:47 Yeah, but not enough to say we're going to rule him out

1:00:49 either. So yeah, that was, I think that

1:00:52 would have been such a, a roller coaster for the family, for

1:00:55 potentially for obviously Margaret's parents and siblings

1:00:59 who would have thought that they were actually getting an answer

1:01:01 here as well as Don Taps. So it's awful that that

1:01:07 occurred. I think for them to get that

1:01:09 their hopes up that they'd found someone and then no,

1:01:12 Unfortunately, yes. In 2015, investigators reopened

1:01:19 the cold case, and now there is a $1 million reward out for

1:01:25 information leading to an arrest in this case.

1:01:27 Yeah. So I think that's a really good

1:01:29 thing. And I feel like, you know, so

1:01:31 much time has gone past now. What are we?

1:01:33 It's 40 odd years later. Yeah.

1:01:36 And, you know, I really hope that that financial reward will

1:01:42 potentially lead to something. I mean, it's been, it's been a

1:01:44 long time. It's been 10 years since that

1:01:46 was announced. But the the offer is still up.

1:01:48 Yeah, there is. The reward is still available.

1:01:50 When I say, like, you know, earlier in this episode that

1:01:52 like surely someone knows something.

1:01:54 But that's where I, I think I worry that if it is that guy,

1:01:57 the doctor X that we talked about, and if he's living,

1:02:00 living this kind of isolated lifestyle, you know, on the

1:02:03 board of town, maybe he maybe he is someone who won't talk to

1:02:07 someone and won't have let it slip what what he's done because

1:02:11 he's probably, it sounds like he's impacted many young

1:02:14 people's lives and then into their futures.

1:02:16 So this is almost nothing to him, which is just gross if that

1:02:21 that's the case. But I guess he hasn't murdered

1:02:23 again. Well, that we we know of like

1:02:28 he's not been linked to any other murders.

1:02:30 But yeah, an interesting 1. And I do then I still don't rule

1:02:34 out obviously again the police officer and cook.

1:02:38 I feel like I don't know if there was something dodgy about

1:02:41 him in general then is there a, is there a world that he was a

1:02:47 part of, a bit of this sort of stuff going on?

1:02:49 Because I. How did he, why did he turn up

1:02:52 to the crime scene the day that he died?

1:02:54 And there's a few. The other thing?

1:02:55 Was. There really awful like I find

1:02:57 this a bit weird in that so the funeral for Margaret and Shawna

1:03:01 like Ian Cook was in the family car on that day.

1:03:05 So fucking bizarre. He was in the morning car and

1:03:08 Margaret sister was like, what is he doing here?

1:03:10 Because they all they all really creepy.

1:03:12 Yeah, they didn't like him. No, I find that really odd.

1:03:15 And I just feel like then it makes him look more interesting

1:03:20 in this. Agreed.

1:03:22 So that's when I sort of go like, I'm not ruling out that

1:03:26 Doctor X is maybe the perpetrator here, but

1:03:29 potentially he had a cop mate who was covering things up for

1:03:32 him in the area. Yeah.

1:03:33 And if he was a local ish person that was doing that for him, did

1:03:36 you do that in this example? And like rock up that crime

1:03:39 scene to remove something that would have directly linked Brad

1:03:42 wrong Doctor. Sorry, Doctor X Yeah.

1:03:44 To this scene. Yeah.

1:03:46 So does it makes so many question marks over?

1:03:49 It. I know there's so many things

1:03:51 like that out there. The other one that I think is

1:03:53 what's not helped. This is less publicity at the

1:03:57 time of the this incident occurring before was more

1:04:00 publicized. Yeah, we alluded to this

1:04:02 earlier. So, yeah, I believe, from what I

1:04:05 can gather, that Margaret's parents, Mr. and Mrs. Nelson,

1:04:11 didn't really want the information out there.

1:04:13 I think because of the rhetoric that was going around that

1:04:16 Margaret was this promiscuous woman.

1:04:19 Yeah. And that that was the cause of,

1:04:21 you know, if it wasn't for that, then these two women, well, this

1:04:25 mother and child would wouldn't be dead incorrect.

1:04:28 But I think they were a little bit embarrassed and didn't

1:04:31 really want the information out there.

1:04:33 They most certainly weren't appealing to the media or to the

1:04:36 public for any information. They didn't do any interviews.

1:04:39 They did not want any bar of the publicity of it.

1:04:43 Which meant that then there was no story to run like because

1:04:45 there was no one to talk. They wouldn't.

1:04:47 Provide photos or information on Margaret or Shawna's.

1:04:50 You know, life to that point, which is where, you know, people

1:04:54 start to develop, you know, an interest in the story when you

1:04:57 get to know that this was a person and this is what this

1:04:59 person did and how amazing they were.

1:05:01 Yeah. Which Margaret did sound like an

1:05:03 amazing person. And Shawna, she was involved in

1:05:06 everything. She was such a she was.

1:05:08 A bra little thing, yeah. You know, and, but nobody really

1:05:12 knew that about them until Andrew Rule went digging 20

1:05:16 years later. Absolutely so.

1:05:18 The other real tragedy in this story is, yeah, what we talk

1:05:22 about. That ripple effect every time.

1:05:25 Every time. And it's, it is untold because

1:05:27 as we go through this, you'll get to see more people who've

1:05:30 been affected by this tragedy. So Justin went over to live in

1:05:34 the UK, So he actually had dual citizenship because Don Tapp was

1:05:39 Auk was from the UK. Yeah.

1:05:41 So he decided I can understand this.

1:05:43 He needed to get away. And I think as soon as he was

1:05:45 18, he moved over to England. He had a very, very serious

1:05:51 alcohol problem. Yeah.

1:05:53 Now, again, I can understand it. I, I don't know whether he had

1:05:56 any psychological intervention after this.

1:05:58 I don't know what that side of his life looked like.

1:06:01 But when he was over there, he met a woman and they established

1:06:06 a very solid and strong relationship.

1:06:08 But she said, I think her name was Michelle.

1:06:10 I think he went right. And she said that she loved him

1:06:15 deeply and he loved her deeply. And she said he was the

1:06:18 loveliest man she'd ever. Met.

1:06:19 Yeah, She spoke so beautifully about him.

1:06:22 But she said I we just quit. So she had his daughter from a

1:06:25 previous relationship. She said I just couldn't expose

1:06:27 my daughter to that anymore because he would drink himself

1:06:30 silly every day. Apparently he from the from the

1:06:34 time Shawna and Margaret were murdered, he never slept a full

1:06:38 night. Oh, God.

1:06:40 And so he would drink himself into a, you know, into a

1:06:44 slumber, I suppose, in order to just get rest.

1:06:47 Yeah. And anyway, it eventuated that

1:06:51 they sort of broke up and he went to live on his own, rented

1:06:55 an apartment not very far from from Michelle and her daughter.

1:07:00 And they were still in fairly regular contact.

1:07:02 And on this, at this particular time, Michelle was like, I

1:07:05 haven't heard heard from him in a week or so.

1:07:07 I better go over and check. She tried calling.

1:07:09 He wasn't answering. She said she went to his.

1:07:12 This is awful. But she went to his door, and

1:07:14 there were flies hanging around the door and a really, really

1:07:17 bad smell. Yeah.

1:07:19 And she got the, I don't know, the person who owned the flats

1:07:22 to open the door. And they found his very, very

1:07:26 decomposed body. To the point where they couldn't

1:07:28 actually get any. They couldn't see, couldn't tell

1:07:30 what Yeah, the cause of death was.

1:07:32 Yeah. They didn't know whether he'd

1:07:34 accidentally died of alcohol poisoning or whether he'd done

1:07:37 something to take his own life. It was just not evident because

1:07:40 of how decomposed his body was. Yeah.

1:07:42 So you know, and as you say, now Michelle and her daughter are

1:07:45 living with that tragedy and that that horrible thing that

1:07:48 had happened to this very significant person in their

1:07:50 life. And this is because of what

1:07:53 happened to the person, you know, the person who murdered

1:07:56 Shawna and and Margaret. Yeah, they're responsible.

1:08:00 They're responsible, absolutely. Yeah.

1:08:02 Because he really, really beat himself up over the fact that as

1:08:06 a 14 year old boy, he thought that if he was home, this

1:08:09 wouldn't have happened. And you?

1:08:11 Know what I think that's probably.

1:08:12 True. I do.

1:08:13 Which is awful to say because you would hate for him to take

1:08:16 that on. Yeah.

1:08:18 But yeah, like maybe a boy of that age, you know, being living

1:08:21 in, if he was in that home, someone would have, you know,

1:08:23 had a second thought of, you know, going in there because

1:08:25 that's another person to, you know, deal with.

1:08:29 Not. Yeah.

1:08:30 Just awful for him to think like that, though, that he is at

1:08:33 fault. He's not at fault.

1:08:35 Yeah, maybe it could have changed outcomes, but it's it's

1:08:38 not his fault. It's just awful that he, and he

1:08:40 clearly very much took that on, according to Michelle, that that

1:08:44 was what got to him the biggest that he could have, that it was

1:08:47 his fault and it wasn't. No, no, that's the person who

1:08:50 did this. That's their fault.

1:08:53 Yeah. And little things in time, you

1:08:55 know, sliding doors, moments, things like that.

1:08:57 You can't change those. They're, you know, things that

1:09:01 are just life. But there is just, yeah, endless

1:09:04 amounts of people who are impacted by this.

1:09:06 I mean, like even Jim Rowlands has spoken about his, you know,

1:09:09 the fact that he found them and the effect that's had on him,

1:09:12 you know, because he, he genuinely felt felt strongly

1:09:16 for, for Margaret anyway. But just to even find people in

1:09:21 that state that's really impacted his life as well.

1:09:24 It's, it's just, it just endless the amount of people impacted

1:09:27 with these events, these whoever this massive piece of shit is, I

1:09:33 hope one day we know who it is and we can name them and shame

1:09:36 them, that's for damn sure. And also that they get their get

1:09:40 what they deserve. I mean, yeah, it's, it's been.

1:09:43 Unfortunately. 4041 years now yeah a lot of times gone past

1:09:49 that a guilty person has been out probably yeah you know of

1:09:53 out in you know out in society yeah I I can only hope for the

1:10:02 remaining family members and people who loved these two women

1:10:06 and Justin that we've you know the the perpetrator is found and

1:10:12 brought to justice. For sure, that is for sure.

1:10:15 I'll. Just wanted to read a quote that

1:10:19 Andrew wrote in his latest article on on this case.

1:10:24 After more than 40 years, a murdered mother and her two dead

1:10:28 children deserve better. So true, plain and simple, yeah.

1:10:34 Yeah. Oh yeah?

1:10:37 Well if anyone knows anything contact Crime Stoppers.

1:10:40 Yep that is for sure. We could solve this one and you

1:10:44 get 1,000,000 bucks for it. Yeah, that's right.

1:10:45 Yeah. Yeah.

1:10:46 As I said, the reward's still out there.

1:10:47 So do it, do it, do it, do it. All right.

1:10:51 Oh wow. What are we going into for next

1:10:53 week? Next week we are going to be

1:10:56 looking into the pitting. Girls, Oh my God.

1:11:01 Oh, you know, you know. Oh my God.

1:11:05 If you haven't heard of this family.

1:11:07 I feel like this is going to be a very research heavy week.

1:11:10 It is actually, definitely, yeah.

1:11:12 Because I feel like I I feel like I know a lot, yeah, but I

1:11:15 reckon I'm only touching the surface.

1:11:16 I reckon yeah, if there's a lot there.

1:11:19 Oh yeah. Interesting people.

1:11:22 Oh God, yeah. Yeah.

1:11:25 Cool. Join us for.

1:11:27 That please do. Again, if you'd like to support

1:11:29 us, you can do so on patreon.com/two Crime Besties

1:11:34 over at buymeacoffee.com/two Crime Besties.

1:11:37 Please like and comment. Actually, one of the things I

1:11:39 did want to say when I was looking at our stats, I know

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1:11:45 So if you could just really, it's really great if you can

1:11:48 just hit that follow button. It really, really, really helps

1:11:51 us. If everybody who listens hits

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1:11:54 Absolutely. That would be really helpful.

1:11:56 Thank you very much. We look forward to bringing you

1:11:58 another episode next week. Absolutely stay curious.

1:12:02 Crime besties. Bye.