Episode 60 - Jamie and Jennifer Faith

0:15 Welcome back to Crime Besties, to episode 60 of your show of

0:19 our show. Not your show, our show.

0:21 It's everyone's show. Yeah, it's everyone.

0:23 We are for the people. Yeah.

0:27 Well, welcome anyway. How have you been this week,

0:30 Meg? What's been going on?

0:31 Oh. Just, you know, the the usual

0:33 roundabouts and circles that we do in the week.

0:35 Yeah. No, been a better week than last

0:38 week at least. Yes.

0:40 How are you? Same for you.

0:41 Yeah, same for us. We had Ollie had some sport that

0:45 was cancelled this week through because due to weather the.

0:48 Weather's been. Shocking bad.

0:50 Lots of it was being really windy, yes, and lots of rain

0:54 predicted. So they actually cancelled 5-6

0:56 Sport for this week, right? I feel like that was just one

1:00 less thing I had to worry about then.

1:01 So yeah, it's all done and dusted for.

1:03 Well, I think they're gonna try and run it again next term, but

1:05 we'll see what happens there. See if they fit it into the

1:08 craziness of then we downhill run.

1:11 Oh, it's crazy, I was saying to one of my colleagues yesterday.

1:16 I actually can't believe next week is September.

1:19 Oh. That just doesn't seem right.

1:21 I know. I actually somebody said to me

1:23 for stuff at work and I said, and my answer was that that

1:26 would happen in October. And in my mind that was so far

1:31 away. And they went and then their

1:32 response to me was, oh, OK, so soon.

1:35 And I'm like, no. And then we told it was.

1:37 Only like 5 weeks away. Yeah, I better.

1:39 Do that then. So it's ready for October and I

1:43 said I'd have it ready for. It's just mental.

1:46 Yeah, yeah. The year is just.

1:49 Someone was saying once you get into the BER months, so

1:52 September, October, November, you're definitely down.

1:55 Just a downhill run to Christmas and it's.

1:57 True. Where did I recently read

2:00 somewhere said like how many weeks it was to Christmas

2:03 already and I I actually looked at it went oh fuck off.

2:06 I don't I don't wanna hear it. No, I do not wanna know this.

2:09 Yeah, my kids decided this week was the week to start their

2:12 Christmas lists. Oh, well, people, you know my

2:17 excuse? Every time they're like, oh, can

2:18 I get this? Yeah, she'll put it on your

2:19 Christmas list. Maybe you'll get it for

2:21 Christmas. I say that from January onwards.

2:23 So now they've decided they need to start the list so they don't

2:26 forget, yes, the things that they want.

2:28 Oh. Well, you know, you clearly want

2:29 it so much. If you forget it exactly.

2:31 I know kids these days don't know how good they've got it.

2:34 I remember when we were kids, I'd be, I'd have my one thing

2:37 that I was, you know, absolutely desperate for.

2:39 Yeah, and you were? Desperate for, desperate for it.

2:42 Yeah, my, I remember when I was a little girl, I wanted this tap

2:47 dancing doll. Oh my God, So badly.

2:49 Where you you moved her arms? She clicked her arms and she tap

2:52 danced. Oh, I never wanted anything.

2:57 Never. Heard of this in my life.

2:59 I would have been. I feel like I would have been in

3:01 prep. Wow.

3:03 Yeah, it was. Do you want a My Child or a

3:05 Cabbage Patch doll like everyone else?

3:07 No, I actually didn't know. Well, I did want was the my

3:10 child the one that was pregnant and had the babies?

3:13 Which one was? That my the my child had like

3:15 like really soft, like fluffy on my skin, like Swedish.

3:19 Oh no, no, I never wanted one of those.

3:24 What was the one that came with and you could choose if you

3:26 wanted it to be pretty. I know Barbie had a version of

3:29 it, but then there was a doll version of it as well.

3:32 That big? Doll person, I have to admit,

3:35 yeah, I hated Barbie. I hated Barbie.

3:39 Had the biggest Barbie kit. Like I had everything known to

3:41 man in Barbie. My godfather bought me Barbie,

3:45 Barbie, everything. And I hated Barbie.

3:48 Literally friends would come over to play and be like,

3:50 desperate to play with my Barbie, and I'd be like, yeah,

3:52 sure, whatever. I'm going to go play with my

3:53 brothers, yeah. She's not that into bed, No.

3:56 Oh, fair enough. Yeah.

3:58 What? As a kid, do you remember what

4:00 you would like your most desired Christmas gift was?

4:07 No, I remember wanting a surfboard for one year but like.

4:14 No, nothing stands out. I also really wanted inline

4:17 roller blades. My 1 you.

4:19 Tell me something. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

4:21 I didn't because I will. I used them once.

4:24 We went on a trip to Sydney, actually went to Queensland, but

4:27 stopped off in Sydney. And so we hired inline skates

4:32 and we were inline skating along the boardwalk, whatever along

4:35 the Esplanade. And, and I was so cool on them

4:39 that I was like, oh, well, I've got this.

4:41 Within 5 seconds I will be able to jump up off of the from the

4:45 road onto the curb, right? Oh yeah.

4:47 Because you can after 5 seconds of using these things.

4:49 And I literally ate from that moment.

4:55 I was like, it was the inline skates fault, not mine.

4:57 Like entirely. They're evil.

5:00 Who would ever want to use those, Right?

5:02 Right. So no, I did not want a pair of

5:04 those. OK, right.

5:05 OK. Yep, Yep, Yep.

5:07 Noted. Yeah, no inline skates for you.

5:11 Those evil things. Were evil.

5:16 Yep. And then the other thing that my

5:17 brother and I really, we were so desperate for, it was an Atari.

5:21 Oh yes, we got it. Oh my God, that was like that.

5:25 I still remember it. I still remember it.

5:27 The first. Game on the.

5:29 So good. I still remember doing the

5:30 bowling. That was the first game we

5:32 played on it. Oh yes, so good.

5:36 Amazing. Yeah.

5:38 Oh God, the simple life I know. Right.

5:41 We didn't want for much. I mean, in Atari that was pretty

5:44 extravagant, probably for the 80s.

5:46 For the 80s, yeah. Italy, Yeah, yeah.

5:49 Anyway, now the other big news to happen this week the the

5:54 engagement of this century, basically.

5:57 Yes, I've heard the best quote too, the other day from a guy

6:01 about all this shit. I love this.

6:03 He goes. So the massive engagement is

6:06 happening, all this sort of thing.

6:07 Taylor Swift, Travers, Kelsey. Oh, my God.

6:09 Chef's kiss. Yeah.

6:11 And this guy goes, how is it that Taylor Swift can turn the

6:15 most neurotypical female into the most autistic person in the

6:19 world? Like, it's actually true.

6:24 Like, you know, like that third line of her song of this album

6:28 means this and that debunks all these theories about that.

6:30 And we can all pull one out somewhere.

6:33 Yeah, for sure. Yeah, that is so true.

6:36 I love. A lot of speculation online.

6:38 Everyone's like, who's she going to ask to be a bridesmaid?

6:41 Well, this is it. I mean, OK, well, big question.

6:44 Yep. When do you actually think they

6:47 got engaged? Is this fresh off the you know?

6:49 So according to Travis's dad, so did you see the interview with

6:54 Travis's mum, which was I think just on the weekend?

6:57 So they got in, they announced it on the Tuesday.

7:00 Yeah, on the weekend. Travis Kelsey's mum bloody love

7:03 that woman. And you can just tell like she's

7:06 just, you know, she's just a genuine lovely person.

7:10 Yeah, maybe not. Maybe needs a bit of media

7:12 training because. Or not really, let's be honest.

7:16 But to be fair, like she didn't expect her son to be marrying

7:20 the greatest pop star of our time.

7:22 No, did she? So.

7:23 But anyway. And they were like, oh, you seem

7:26 really happy. And she's like, yeah, we're

7:28 really happy, you know, because Travis has really settled and,

7:31 you know, he's made some decisions.

7:33 And everyone apparently was like, oh, my God, Oh, my God,

7:35 they're gonna get engaged. Yeah, right.

7:36 And then I wonder whether that was the catalyst, this interview

7:39 with her to announce. And I don't know, but according

7:41 to the dad, they got engaged about two weeks ago.

7:44 Right, Yeah, Well, okay, so a sleuth last night put on

7:48 Instagram that if you watch the podcast, right, and she's

7:53 wearing the same watch, yes, as she is in the engagement photos

7:57 and during the podcast, there's a freeze frame of her watch

8:02 saying 3:00 PM, right? OK.

8:04 And then in the photo shoot, you can see her watch and it reads

8:08 5:00 PM. So everyone's thinking that

8:11 potentially they were filmed, they filmed the podcast and then

8:15 went and did the engagement photos.

8:17 So. She I went and did the photos.

8:19 So they were already engaged. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

8:22 OK. I love that.

8:23 Yeah, I do love that. Yes.

8:25 I really do too. And even she's, she's just

8:29 gorgeous. They're gorgeous.

8:30 I love it. Love.

8:31 It love it because, you know, because there's all these little

8:33 things that people were pulling out of the podcast of like on

8:35 the shelf behind them was a Pinocchio thing.

8:38 On the back of his neck was some star sticker.

8:40 I didn't see like there was that he leant forward and he could

8:43 see this little star sticker on the back of his neck and what?

8:45 And everyone's like, no, well, no one knows.

8:47 I think I was like predicting like kind of going, what does

8:48 this mean? There's someone's lying and what

8:50 does the star mean? Like.

8:52 Crazy. Yeah, there's so many theories.

8:55 Because she uses Easter eggs all the time.

8:57 That's it. Where are they and what are

8:59 they? She's.

8:59 She's she's built this up herself.

9:01 She has. She's done it to herself.

9:03 Yeah. I mean, good on Earth.

9:05 What an amazing, incredible. Me too, me too, looking forward

9:10 to seeing some wedding pics. And Selena Gomez got to met

9:13 getting married soon with all The Bachelorette and bachelor

9:15 parties going on there too. For sure Taylor will be there.

9:19 Absolutely. All right, moving on.

9:21 Sorry to all the people who aren't into who aren't Swifties.

9:25 I might have a Carl story for the people to say if you want to

9:28 go there all. Right, hurry up.

9:30 Go all. Right.

9:31 So obviously our two have been talking at school and obviously

9:35 your family have been through a tragedy with a family pet,

9:38 which, you know, obviously that's been a topic of

9:40 conversation. I love it.

9:41 Like that's the way they process these things and it's a really

9:44 great for them to do that. And so that's been coming home a

9:48 little bit with my son. And I got asked the other day,

9:52 so when Kyle dies will I be able to cremate him?

9:59 Oh God, can you? I was.

10:05 Like don't. No, no, don't.

10:07 No. I wouldn't think so that that's

10:09 a thing you would be able to do. You're not.

10:12 Going to want to pay OK, the whole the whole thing right,

10:15 even for for dogs. I mean, it's it's interesting

10:19 because so when you go for these cremations, there's so many

10:25 options, right? I haven't been through this

10:28 before because the only other time I've lost a pet, it's been

10:31 our family pet and my mom and dad have obviously dealt with

10:33 it. I haven't known any differently.

10:36 So when the options were presented to us.

10:40 Well, I you know. What though?

10:42 It actually wasn't as expensive as I thought.

10:44 OK, plus. It's more the canister.

10:48 Yeah, that's right. And you can go.

10:50 You can go to the ends of the earth.

10:51 Yeah, because I even got asked because if I can cremate him,

10:55 can I put something in like a little jewellery thing and wear

10:58 it? Yeah, not into that.

11:01 No. No shade on somebody who wants

11:03 to do that, but no. Well, it's one thing for like a

11:08 person or very family Petland dog.

11:13 Axolotl. Oh, he wants to put an axolotl

11:16 around his neck, Kyle around his.

11:18 Neck ashes in a. Oh fuck.

11:22 Oh God, no. So just so you know as well,

11:26 there's an option to either do a group cremation where you they

11:31 obviously put multiple animals in together and then I guess you

11:34 just get like a bit of the ashes that are mixed with other.

11:38 Ashes. Animals.

11:39 Cheap other people's animals. That's a cheap way to for me

11:42 wait. Hang on.

11:44 I'm sorry, what? Yep.

11:46 No, you're getting other people's.

11:47 Well, yeah, and I guess you would maybe do that if you

11:50 weren't going to get the ashes back as well.

11:52 I don't know. But if or you can or you can get

11:55 the single, the single pet cremation and then you get your

12:00 pet's ashes back and. I thought that was the only

12:03 option. No, and the most.

12:05 Why would you need someone else's?

12:07 Well I don't, I don't know because it's heaps cheaper.

12:10 Yeah, but what? But OK, I don't understand I

12:13 feel. Like you, I feel like you would

12:15 maybe choose that option if you didn't want the ashes back.

12:19 OK, maybe. Right, but why would OK.

12:25 But the funniest thing was, so we obviously chose the single

12:29 cremation. Yeah.

12:31 But we've got this like really proxy certificate that someone

12:34 had like obviously written in Word in a Word document that was

12:37 like we cremated Luna on and it's like a single pet

12:42 cremation. No, I've got this beautiful like

12:45 plaque thing and we didn't get a written document.

12:50 Oh, we got. Actually, we did get a written

12:52 document. We did get a written document.

12:54 Yeah, that's, that's all. Yeah, yeah.

13:00 Oh God, okay. Oh wow.

13:02 Crazy. So you'll have to.

13:04 I don't know, do you really want to spend that much?

13:06 For you to well, I just said to him that's just not even a

13:08 thing. You can't because he's wet.

13:10 Like because he's. Wet.

13:12 Exactly was all I could come up yeah and so yeah, anyway, so the

13:16 question because then he got really upset like crying like

13:19 yeah, so but. Don't they?

13:21 We feel like ages. I said, well, that's what I said

13:23 to him, so there's no need to get upset because he is going to

13:25 live forever. Like I know I'm going to be here

13:29 for a long time with this thing. So I said just enjoy all the

13:32 years you get with him. And this is something you worry

13:35 about like when you're like 18. Yeah, like you're going to be

13:39 like that old. But before you need to actually

13:41 even contemplate this. Yeah.

13:43 Because then then I said to him and he goes, well, what would we

13:45 do then if we can't cremate him? And I'm like, well, we'd we'd

13:48 find a really nice burial spot for him.

13:50 Like the? Toilet you can't wash an

13:53 excellent dad he's. Too money big.

13:59 You need a real good pig. Oh no, I'm not even gonna go.

14:05 Oh my God. Yeah, but then then he said,

14:07 well, can I bury? And he's like, where can I bury

14:09 him? I'm like, we would find a nice

14:10 spot. And he's like, like, like maybe

14:12 a box next to my bed because that's because we have another.

14:15 We have my pets on my bedside table but it's cremated like.

14:19 Ashes. Ashes.

14:20 And they're in a sealed container body that's like.

14:23 No, mate, you can't do that. You cannot do that.

14:26 It'll smell pretty bad. It'll pretty.

14:27 Stink. Yeah, yeah.

14:29 So yeah, all the conversations that this has sparked, which I

14:32 just, I adore their naivety in like and their innocence in

14:36 processing this kind of information.

14:38 Yeah, it's. Just yeah.

14:40 But yeah, I'm sorry, the acts a lot like being cremated.

14:44 Oh. No, no, no, no, sorry.

14:47 He can. He can have a nice burial spot

14:49 somewhere in, yeah, the backyard where Bruce can't take.

14:55 Him. Oh God, Yep, Yep.

14:57 Yep, Yep, Yep, Yep. OK, alright, let's get on to

15:00 shout outs for today. I'm yes done talking about Kyle.

15:03 Oh, tell me about it. All right, so we have 4 new

15:08 Patreons this week. We've got Katrina Jenner, Kate

15:11 from Gather, and so Tegan and Peter, Peter, Nicole, McKenzie.

15:16 So thank you guys very, very much for supporting us over on

15:19 Patreon. We have released our first

15:20 episode there now. Yeah.

15:22 And we are desperate for you guys to let us know what you

15:25 want over there. We're still sort of figuring out

15:27 how it's going to look and what it's going to look like, and

15:29 we're really happy to be guided by our Patreons.

15:33 So please let us know what it is that you would like we.

15:36 Can get super loose over there loose.

15:41 Because it's behind a paywall and that everyone can have

15:43 access to it. Yeah, we absolutely can.

15:46 Come join. Then we have another shout out

15:49 for Asvinda, who contacted us through Instagram.

15:53 Instagram. Yeah.

15:54 And she purchased a new car and. Congratulations.

15:57 Yeah, congratulations. Yeah, Love that for you.

16:00 And the dealer was helping her set up her Apple Car play.

16:04 And apparently she said, oh, well, I need to make sure I can

16:07 listen to this podcast on there. And he was like, oh, I've seen

16:11 this. I've had to set this up for

16:13 other people. And I'm like, what it's like,

16:16 for real? So apparently he's gonna start

16:19 listening too. So car dealership man, if you

16:21 are listening to this, welcome. Mm hmm.

16:23 Welcome, welcome and love it that everyone's setting it up on

16:26 their CarPlay to listen. Blows my mind.

16:29 Blows my mind. We are taking over the world I

16:32 love. This aren't we?

16:34 Just never. Thought this was possible.

16:36 Well, did we? No, no, no.

16:42 Yeah, no. All right, let's get into

16:43 today's case, shall we? Let's talking today about the

16:48 case of Jamie Faith Bat shit crazy, bat shit fucking crazy.

16:53 It's it's horrible because somebody was murdered, but this

16:57 has, I've been, this is. Soap opera kind of shit.

17:01 Is it? Is if it wasn't, if it wasn't

17:03 real life, it would be a brilliant movie.

17:07 Like it's the the story lot line of this is just twists and turns

17:11 and. Flips flops back, back and

17:13 forth. Yeah, You know, you find out one

17:15 thing, you think something, then you think something else, and

17:17 then you know, at the end they get to the bottom of it.

17:20 But it's just mental. Oh, completely.

17:23 I was gripped the entire. Time of researching this thing.

17:26 Actually, I've actually enjoyed researching this thing.

17:29 I haven't had AI mean I I really feel for the fact.

17:32 That this is someone who's real. This is somebody who's.

17:35 Real. And it's, it's horrific.

17:36 And I feel for everybody who knew him and and loved him.

17:41 Yeah. Fuck me, it's captivating, so

17:44 let's get into it. Let's get into.

17:46 It James or Jamie Faith Junior was born on the 11th of May in

17:50 1971 in Madison, WI. He was, by all accounts, a very,

17:56 very lovely man. He.

17:59 He completed a Bachelor of Science in Computer Science in

18:03 1994 from the University of Wisconsin in Whitewater.

18:07 And he actually was very, very good at his job, so much so that

18:13 he was appointed as the technology director at American

18:17 Airlines in and it was in Dallas, TX.

18:19 So he's moved from Wisconsin to Texas to take on this position.

18:23 Yeah. And he had a staff of, I think

18:26 it was like 50 or 60 people reporting to him.

18:29 So this was a big role. Oh, absolutely.

18:31 And he even national company take on students from the

18:34 Southern Methodist University locally and mentor them as well

18:36 in in this. He was such a generous person in

18:40 his, you know, nature of like that to, you know, mentor these

18:43 people at the beginning of their careers and in in this industry,

18:46 which is just, he was just, yeah, I'm incredible bloke

18:49 really. Lovely guy.

18:50 I think he was quite nerdy and yes.

18:53 And so much so that he'd kind of gone throughout his life and

18:56 hadn't really had many serious relationships.

18:58 I think he was very reserved and quite shy, even though he

19:02 excelled in his work life. I think his personal life or

19:06 didn't suffer. But he he just, I don't know

19:09 that he had the confidence to kind of like put himself out

19:11 there. Yeah, he'd had relationships,

19:13 but nothing that was too serious.

19:14 And friends say that he kind of got to a point in his early 30s

19:19 where he was like, I just don't know that marriage, kids, all of

19:21 that. Sort of stuff, just not for.

19:22 Me, yeah. And he was happy with that,

19:24 happy to go along. He was really fulfilled in his

19:27 life. Otherwise, as you said, he was

19:28 mentoring young kids or young adults.

19:30 Yeah, and really loved his job. He was very, very well liked by

19:35 his employees. So he at what year was that in?

19:41 20/11/2012 he met, he was actually set up on a blind date

19:46 by mutual friends with a woman by the name of Jennifer Lynn.

19:50 Oh, what was her maiden name? Oh, I can't remember.

19:53 Oh, Schmitz was her maiden name. Sorry.

19:57 And they hit it off immediately. They really had a lot in common.

20:03 They were both Green Bay Packers fans.

20:05 They both loved travel, food and wine.

20:08 And they were just. Compatible immediately, and

20:12 apparently they really fell quite deeply in love with one

20:15 another. They just, the conversation

20:17 apparently, was just endless. They were, yeah, really, really

20:20 connected immediately. Yeah, Jennifer had been married

20:23 twice previously and divorced twice.

20:27 Her first husband was the father of her only child.

20:31 And he actually said he didn't want children at all.

20:33 So that was where that marriage break broke down, when she fell

20:35 pregnant. And he was like, no, no, no,

20:38 that's not what I was wanting. So according to to where that's

20:40 what ended that relationship. And so she was then pregnant and

20:44 no longer with him. Yeah.

20:46 We'll get to more details about that relationship a little bit

20:49 later on. Her second marriage only lasted

20:52 about nine months as well. So there was, they were very

20:54 short lived. Yeah, marriages.

20:56 But as I said, they married, Jennifer and Jamie married in

21:00 2012 and and by all accounts they were doing very well for

21:05 themselves. So Jamie worked for American

21:08 Airlines in this sort of very high up position, director of IT

21:11 like so. You've been earning decent

21:13 money, that's for sure. So was Jennifer.

21:14 She was a speech pathologist. She was very well regarded in

21:18 her industry and had a lot of experience as.

21:20 Well, yeah, well, she was managing like a rehab center

21:24 like kind of thing. So she was, you know, in that

21:25 managerial role as well. So earning good money.

21:27 Yeah. Although she did become quite

21:30 I'll at a point where I mean her, she was, I think she, she

21:33 had diabetes and was in a bit of a, you know, crisis of health

21:38 kind of situation. And they they were financially

21:40 stable enough for her to say, for them to say, look, take time

21:43 off of working. So that actually coincided as

21:45 well. So this was in 2020 when this

21:48 yeah took place. And so her being able to take

21:51 the time off work actually coincided with people kind of

21:54 needing to step down during the pandemic anyway, because

21:57 obviously in a rehab centre, there's not as much necessarily

22:00 going on. Yeah.

22:02 And so they were looking for people to step down for a time

22:05 and that she kind of took that opportunity.

22:07 And she wasn't like forgoing what she could in her career by

22:10 doing it. It was a good, it was good

22:12 timing. And that she would just step

22:13 away with the idea that she'll step back in again, you know,

22:16 down the track when she was in a better way in with her health.

22:19 When the pandemic was over 30 years later.

22:22 You should mention too, obviously, that Jennifer's

22:24 daughter, Amber, who at the time when she met Jamie was 8 years

22:28 of age, and Jamie and Amber just got along brilliantly.

22:32 Like he really took her on as his own.

22:34 But when and when she turned 18, he actually adopted her

22:36 officially. So by the time we get to this

22:38 point in that story, I think Amber is around about 2223.

22:41 Yeah, Yeah. And so but so at this stage,

22:45 like she's adopted officially by Jamie and he's her father, but

22:49 she had been raised as if he was hers anyway from the age of 8,

22:52 pretty much. So yeah, really, really loving

22:55 relationship between the two of them.

22:57 Yeah, he loved her so much. Yeah, so, so much.

22:59 And you can tell, like on his Instagram profile, there's

23:02 pictures of him and her. He was very dedicated as a

23:07 father and for somebody who obviously he'd thought that that

23:10 wasn't necessarily going to be his path in life, he really

23:13 embraced it when Amber came into his life.

23:16 Good on him, people. The world needs more men like

23:18 Jamie. This absolutely.

23:20 I completely agree. Like, yeah, he just seems like

23:23 they one of these genuine humans that you just wanna you want in

23:25 your life. Yeah, yeah.

23:27 So should we get to the day of the incident?

23:29 Yeah. Well more more really

23:30 importantly at this point I think we we mentioned one other

23:33 member of the family. It's very, very important

23:35 person. Well, member of the family is

23:37 Maggie. They're Bernese mountain dog.

23:40 So. Beautiful.

23:43 Not biased at all. Not at all.

23:44 And you know what? It's kind of the clincher for me

23:46 that says that Jamie was a brilliant person.

23:48 Yeah. Because if you are in a Bernese

23:49 Mountain Dog, you must be a legend of a person.

23:52 Don't know why I would say that. Yeah, yes.

23:57 So yeah, Maggie, absolutely beautiful, beautiful little

24:00 girl. Well, she was little, not little

24:01 Giant. Beautiful giant girl, but she

24:03 was. She was pretty young, wasn't?

24:05 She, yeah, she was pretty young, actually.

24:06 Yeah, gorgeous little. Thing it's a watch the videos of

24:09 of her with Jamie playing and stuff and it's just beautiful.

24:11 And they're, they're routine. So we're we're talking 2020.

24:15 And this incident took place on the 9th of October in 2020.

24:19 So the world had been shut down since March.

24:21 Yeah. And a lot of people were working

24:23 from home and so much, including Jamie.

24:25 Including Jamie. Yeah.

24:27 And they would take Maggie for a walk at about 7:30 every morning

24:30 and, you know, get her out and about, give her a walk for the

24:33 day, come home, and he'd start his job for the day.

24:36 And as we mentioned, Jennifer wasn't working, so we'll get to

24:39 what she would spend her days doing in a minute.

24:42 Yeah. So at about 7:30 AM on the 9th

24:44 of October in 2020, Jamie and Jennifer, as they did most days,

24:49 left their home and we're taking Maggie for a walk.

24:53 Yep, This is in captured on Ring camera where you see Jennifer

24:58 walking with Maggie on the lead and she leaves the fair house

25:01 first and then just behind her, you know, maybe 2-3 meters is,

25:06 is Jamie walking out And then they head off on their walk and

25:09 that's the last thing you see on the camera as they head around

25:12 the front of their yard. Yeah.

25:13 Where? So yeah, they're sort of out of

25:14 view of out of the time this happens.

25:16 Yeah. They they live in a neighborhood

25:19 called Oak Cliff in Dallas, which is a really lovely

25:21 neighborhood. And because of the pandemic,

25:24 there were so many people working from home at home at the

25:26 time. A masked gunman ambushed the

25:30 couple as they were walking along the footpath literally

25:33 moments after they left the house.

25:35 He came up from behind of Jamie. So Jennifer was further back,

25:41 further ahead again from where the gunman was coming from.

25:44 So just to give perspective of where she was in relation to

25:47 this. But he did come at Jamie front

25:49 on. So he ended up coming around

25:51 being front on with Jamie, Yeah. And shot him three times in the

25:54 chest first, yeah. Then three times in the head and

25:57 a final shot to the groin. Jennifer's hands were then duct

26:01 taped and her jewelry. He the the assailant tried to

26:06 take her wedding ring off, but it kind of got stuck halfway

26:09 down her finger. He did manage to get Jamie's

26:13 wedding band off of him. He did hit hit Jennifer a few

26:18 times around the head as well before a neighbor in the next

26:21 door neighbor who heard obviously her screaming at this.

26:23 She absolutely was screaming very loudly.

26:25 And you can again hear that on various cameras from people's

26:28 other people as well who around the neighbourhood's got cameras.

26:31 Yeah. So you can hear the her

26:33 screaming and the gunshots everything.

26:35 The neighbor next door hears this and comes he first he heard

26:37 the gunshots and was like a ducked as you know, I guess in

26:40 America as you would like somehow, yeah built to do.

26:42 We're not probably I don't know. I don't know how I'd react

26:44 because I've never heard it kind of stuff, whereas I think

26:46 they're more used to it. I don't know which is awful.

26:49 Or they know what to. Do they know what to do?

26:51 Yeah. He practiced at school.

26:52 So you know. Yeah.

26:53 Yeah. Because so he sort of.

26:55 Yeah. Ducked in terms of the gunshots

26:57 and then heard the screaming and went, oh, gosh, this is nearby.

26:59 This is out the front. I need to go.

27:01 And, you know, this is happening right now.

27:03 Went out to see what was going on and he saw this person who

27:07 obviously then clocked him as well.

27:09 And he was made eye contact. Yeah, so he did.

27:12 They did. Looked at each other as he was

27:14 attacking Jennifer, which that seemed to interrupt what he was

27:18 doing there, and he ran to a car.

27:21 So it was a big, big black Ute a Nissan.

27:24 A Nissan Titan pickup truck with the chattered Jewel cab.

27:27 So, yeah, 4 door. Yes.

27:30 Giant big truck, pickup, pickup truck, chicks.

27:34 And it had a a distinctive tea decal on the back, which

27:38 Jennifer, when she was interviewed by the police, she

27:41 said that it was a Texas Rangers baseball team logo.

27:45 Yeah. That's what she thought it was

27:47 what it looked like, Yeah. So this car then drives off.

27:50 Now it drives off slowly, it doesn't speed away.

27:53 It's very controlled, drives us slowly.

27:55 And you and they, the police are able to pick this car up for

27:58 some distance and see him driving and he hits a freeway

28:02 and they lose him, unfortunately on that.

28:04 Somewhere around Arkansas. Yeah, so they, they know he's

28:07 travelling a distance. Yeah, well, this is so.

28:10 But the cops did arrive quite quickly.

28:12 But in terms of that car, they weren't able to track it at the

28:17 actual time with a fault with a car following him.

28:19 This is all by camera after the fact that they were able to pick

28:22 up. That's right where he was

28:23 travelling. And none of the CCTV cameras

28:25 were able to get a clear picture of the number plate, so they

28:28 weren't able to see who the car was registered to or.

28:32 Anything like that? Yeah.

28:34 So Jamie died at the scene immediately, basically.

28:39 Apparently the three chest shots did not kill him.

28:42 It was the headshot that killed him, the first headshot that

28:45 killed him. So then if you think about it,

28:48 those extra shots in terms of the other two to his head and

28:50 then that final one to his groin, that's overkill.

28:53 Oh, that's exactly what the police.

28:54 Called it, yeah, very, very personal.

28:56 Like to shoot somebody in the groin after, you know, they're

28:59 dead. Yeah, that's it.

29:01 That's. Weird.

29:02 And the police immediately are like, this seems more personal

29:05 than like a robbery gone wrong in that they was, you know,

29:08 obviously that his wedding ring was taken in an attempt to take

29:11 Jennifer's that, you know, that yeah, that was that looked like

29:14 robbery gone wrong. But it's not because it's the

29:17 the overkill. And then also the fact that

29:18 there was a shock to the groin really indicated like some sort

29:22 of motivation in terms of a sexual act of some sort.

29:25 So. Something very, very personal.

29:27 Yeah, very personal in this. And so there was a number of

29:31 question marks over what has gone on here, who this this

29:34 perpetrator was. Yeah, should say too.

29:36 Look, obviously Dallas is has a high had a high crime rate at

29:41 this time, particularly around the pandemic.

29:43 That year from January to October, there had been 200

29:46 murders in Dallas. This particular area, though was

29:50 a very safe area. So it wasn't like this was going

29:52 on specifically in this area, but there were, you know, gun

29:58 shots fired. Serial killer around at the

30:00 time, yeah. And you know, the thoughts were

30:03 maybe he'd come into this neighborhood because apparently

30:05 he drove this serial killer did drive a black pickup truck had

30:09 been seen. He drive drove a Chevy though, a

30:12 Chevy pickup truck and he had actually been a potential

30:18 suspect, yes. Well, Jennifer really actually

30:20 pushed the police to to look into that more and they really

30:23 didn't. They didn't see it.

30:25 They didn't fit, they didn't think it fitted.

30:27 But she was pretty keen for them to look into that and that she

30:29 was quite upset that they didn't look more into it.

30:31 At the time. She had like a group chat that

30:34 she started with some friends to keep them updated on what was

30:37 happening with the police cases and just in general around Jamie

30:41 and everything. And in that group chat, she had

30:44 put some comments in there around how she was frustrated by

30:46 the police not following up and looking at that more

30:50 interesting. Yeah, it is interesting.

30:52 So basically in those very early stages, the police are trying to

30:56 figure out, OK what? Who would want to murder Jamie?

30:59 What's been going on in his life?

31:01 Yeah. And so they contact his employer

31:03 and they discovered that Jamie had had to make 20 people

31:07 redundant due to the pandemic with in the preceding sort of

31:12 two months, I think it was to the day of his death.

31:15 So they actually went and interviewed all twenty of those

31:19 people. And they found that they had not

31:21 one of them held any animosity over Jamie regarding that.

31:25 They knew it's because of the pandemic.

31:27 It wasn't personal. Apparently, Jamie agonized over

31:30 having to pick 20 people to make redundant.

31:33 I mean, that's one of the horrible things about being in

31:35 these senior positions. Yeah.

31:37 And he didn't want to pick because he thought all of his

31:40 team members were valuable. But, you know, this is the way

31:42 it is. Business is business.

31:44 And so, and they all felt that way.

31:46 They all went, no, we know it's not him when, yeah, we don't

31:49 hold him personally responsible for this.

31:51 So yeah, they were pretty much excluded, you know, early on in

31:54 the piece by the time they had the chance to interview.

31:57 Absolutely. And in the very first interview

31:59 that Jennifer does on the day of the of the incident, they pull

32:03 her in quickly, like so because she wasn't overly injured, she

32:06 got checked out by people at the hospital and those sorts of

32:08 things. But they did bring her in for an

32:10 interview on that very first day, which, you know, that's

32:12 traumatic. And they were very, very gentle

32:14 with her and going through that process with that first

32:16 interview. And she they did question her

32:19 around. Are there people that you know,

32:20 that you've had arguments with of any kind or anything that

32:23 anything that she knew and she was very like, no, like there's

32:26 just no one that we live this kind of lifestyle, which they

32:29 did. They were, they were the people

32:30 in the neighborhood who gave their neighbors keys to their

32:33 backyard to use their pool. You know, in the summer.

32:36 They were the they, they held Thursday night game night like,

32:40 and they would have played video games with the with neighbors.

32:42 They very much had this very friendly neighborhood style

32:47 lifestyle. There was 1 neighbor they said

32:50 that was further down the street that had a dog they'd had a run

32:52 in with in terms of this dog that barked constantly.

32:55 And the dog was actually removed and then it was returned And

32:58 they had had a bit of altercation around, you know,

33:00 with this neighbor but never got serious of any point.

33:04 And the only other thing that she could think of of being any

33:07 negative interactions with people was that they had lent

33:10 money to quite a few neighbors as well over time.

33:13 And one in particular, she'd recently had a payment from them

33:16 of $400. And in doing that, I think the

33:20 partner had found out that they, the other partner had borrowed

33:23 money and that had caused a bit of conflict, but not necessarily

33:27 with the faiths for doing that, no.

33:30 So she had. Conflict between the.

33:32 Between the couple, yeah. But yeah, so she was very

33:34 forthcoming in that there was really, there's only things she

33:37 was like really trying to clutch, clutching at straws to

33:39 find, you know, people that could be upset with Jamie.

33:42 There just wasn't anyone in his life that he would be upset with

33:45 him because he was a genuinely good guy.

33:48 Yeah. So she was at a loss at this

33:51 point. At this point the police asked

33:54 if they could have a look at her phone and she sort of semi

33:59 reluctantly handed it over. She did hand it over though.

34:02 Yep, Yep. And they looked into it and I

34:08 don't know, they just sort of. So we'll notice that there was

34:11 nothing. Well, it looked like it had been

34:13 recently. Factory recently only because So

34:15 what they found was they found nothing other they went right

34:19 right right back and found a message to her girlfriend named

34:23 Tina and this the message read. So I have no idea when I'm going

34:28 to be able to talk to you over the phone, but I'm pretty much

34:31 having a full blown emotional affair and Jamie knows it.

34:37 And then the next message is this guy I dated in high school

34:40 and college, we broke up because I was finishing school and after

34:43 he got out of basic training, he was deployed to South Korea.

34:47 So that's who it is that she's having this emotional affair

34:49 with. And then the next message is

34:52 that he ended up going special forces and served 26 years, just

34:55 retired and found me. We are going to get married at

34:59 the, we were going to get married at the time.

35:02 So the cops see this message, but they can't find any

35:06 communication between this person with, with Jennifer on

35:11 her phone. So that makes them go, well,

35:13 where are these messages? Because if they, if it was

35:16 genuinely nothing that you'd see a connection of other messages

35:20 on her phone and they were when they were looking at their

35:23 phone, the phone, they can see what's being deleted.

35:25 Like you delete something, you haven't really deleted it.

35:28 But in her deleted stuff, it wasn't there either.

35:31 So if you've like just gone, Oh yeah.

35:32 If you're one of those people who's a neat freak in your

35:33 phone, which I have to admit I am, I can't stand seeing a red

35:38 number on my phone already. That's shit that you delete

35:42 messages, you know, kind of thing.

35:43 And but it doesn't actually, it's not gone gone.

35:46 However, they couldn't find it in there either.

35:48 So that was indicating that factory reset had occurred,

35:51 which then that's a whole nother level.

35:52 Like who does that? Who does that without wanting to

35:54 cover something up 100%. So they, that's what triggered

35:57 them to then look into who this person was.

35:59 So they went back into who her relationships were with and

36:04 yeah, found it. There was this guy Darren, that

36:08 she had been dating, obviously, as she said back in high school.

36:12 They went to prom together in 1990.

36:15 Yes. Have you seen the?

36:15 Photo Yeah, I love her dress so 1990 so. 80s, nineties, and

36:22 she's wearing this red dress and he's wearing a matching red tie.

36:25 That was totally the thing. Like I feel like that was even

36:27 the thing into the early 2000s. Yeah, definitely.

36:30 Yeah. But gorgeous.

36:32 So yeah, this too. And they dated right through.

36:34 Like actually they met doing jazz band and we're friends for

36:38 quite some time before they connected more so.

36:41 So it wasn't until they went on to a trip to Europe with school

36:45 and had their first kiss under the Eiffel Tower.

36:49 How romantic. Romantic.

36:52 Yeah, so they were, they then dated right through for the from

36:56 high school into college and three years into college.

37:01 There's a conflicting information of what I can find

37:03 here in terms of She said in her police interview that she met

37:08 who then became her first husband, and that that's kind of

37:13 what broke them up. But there's other places where I

37:18 found other different information to that.

37:19 So my. Understanding of that, and

37:21 again, it's hard when you find conflicting information what to

37:25 know what's true. But the other thing is that he

37:29 decided that he wanted to enlist in the military because his

37:33 father had served. Yeah.

37:35 And that was something that was really calling him, something he

37:37 really wanted to do. And Jennifer didn't want to be a

37:40 military wife. She didn't want to be moving

37:42 around. She wanted to establish herself.

37:44 And so they they parted ways amicably.

37:46 Yes. But because of the fact that

37:49 he's then gone off to South Korea, we're talking.

37:51 This is in the time before, really, everyone had ready

37:53 access to emails and all of that sort of thing.

37:55 Yeah. And he ended up becoming like an

37:58 SAS, like a special. Special Force Forces soldier,

38:04 Yeah. And he worked, he was in the

38:06 military for 26 years, so. He was actually a medic, so he

38:09 was special forces medic is what he became.

38:10 So they lost contact? Yeah, entirely.

38:14 All of that, they hadn't had any contact basically since they

38:16 turned. Away.

38:17 I think literally he finished his.

38:19 What do you call it? Like initial training and then

38:22 was deployed pretty much immediately to South Korea.

38:24 So from that point on, from him leaving to South Korea, they had

38:28 no further communication from that point.

38:30 So he, he was in the military as a, as a medic until for 26 years

38:35 he was in in there. He did some incredible things.

38:41 In that time. He was deployed 6 times to Iraq

38:46 or Afghanistan. He was also critically injured

38:51 in a an accident where there was a a roadside IED that blew up a

38:55 Humvee that he was in. There was 23 people in this

39:01 vehicle and only 19 survived No 19.

39:05 Died. Sorry, only four survived, 19

39:07 died, Sorry, the other way around.

39:08 So the four of them that survived, he was obviously one

39:11 of them being the, he was being the medic.

39:13 He was the one who kept them all alive, that we're alive.

39:16 And he also treated all those that were dying too.

39:19 So incredibly compassionate, like, and I think it took like

39:21 48 hours or something for them to be evacuated from that.

39:24 So the so apparently in that, in that thing in the in the ID

39:29 explosion, there was one person who was absolutely critically,

39:34 critically injured and basically on deaths door and he kept him

39:37 alive for 48 hours until they were rescued.

39:39 On his own. All on his own, yeah, amazing.

39:42 And I mean, I'm dare say he would have he well, he certainly

39:44 had injuries himself as well-being that he won

39:49 traumatic, he had a traumatic brain injury that he was later

39:51 on later diagnosed from that incident.

39:54 Not at the time, he wasn't diagnosed with that.

39:57 And of course post traumatic stress disorder.

39:59 So as you could just imagine, but the, the traumatic brain

40:03 injury became an issue for him later.

40:05 And it's actually what he ended up being medically discharged

40:09 because of that. Yeah, which rightly so.

40:12 So he returned home. After that, after being

40:15 medically discharged, which was still quite a number of years

40:17 after the actual incident. It was actually, let's have a

40:21 look. It was actually nearly 15 years

40:23 later. Yeah, crazy.

40:24 So he he still continued. Yeah, doing a lot of this work.

40:28 So amazing what he went through and a huge amounts of respect

40:32 for that. Absolutely.

40:33 He was awarded a Purple Heart and two Bronze Star for for his

40:38 efforts during that IED incident.

40:41 So. And very, very well deserved,

40:43 yeah. So returning from there, he

40:46 obviously had a wife and kids. Here he had two.

40:50 Daughters and two stepdaughters, I believe.

40:52 Yeah. And they, so they reunited,

40:55 obviously, and had, you know, they were together.

40:56 But with the issues that he was having with this traumatic brain

41:00 injury, it really led to the end of that marriage.

41:04 Yeah. So he ended up basically being

41:06 divorced and quite isolated. He wasn't in a good way, you

41:10 know, like trying to work in a regular job didn't really fit

41:12 for him either with this this injury.

41:15 I think two of his daughters lived with him at this time as

41:18 well. So yeah, 2018, his marriage

41:22 ended and by 2020, he was living in Tennessee.

41:25 So with his two daughters in a kind of remote farm sort of

41:29 house. Yeah, he had quite a bit of.

41:32 Yeah, yeah, He did own that with a mortgage, but he wasn't being

41:36 able to keep up with those payments, no.

41:38 Because of the fact, I mean, I feel like this was probably

41:41 compounded by the pandemic as well, yeah, because he wasn't

41:45 really holding down jobs. He was doing lots of odd jobs to

41:47 kind of make ends meet. And he he had nothing really

41:50 permanent that he was doing. So I feel like a lot of people

41:54 probably came unstuck in the same way during the pandemic and

41:57 had similar employment because he had nothing to fall back on.

42:01 And so I think he was something like 120 days in arrears on his

42:04 mortgage by the time this incident took place.

42:07 So he was really feeling it. His water had been shut off

42:10 because he hadn't paid his water bills.

42:12 And I believe his electricity was not that far behind.

42:15 So he wasn't in a good way. His house was in an absolute

42:19 state of disrepair. Yeah, this is going a little bit

42:23 ahead now, but when there were reports of what was found inside

42:28 his house, and apparently the house was putrid, it was

42:33 absolute. Apparently the officer who

42:37 reported this said they'd never seen anything like it.

42:40 The house was dilapidated, filthy, completely disorganized,

42:46 but just not really livable. So he, I think that gives a a

42:51 real reflection probably on his mental state.

42:53 Yeah, yeah. Otherwise, like who would live

42:56 like that? I, I just don't.

42:58 You don't choose to live like that.

43:00 No, God, no, no, that's yeah. That's really sad.

43:03 Really sad. Very.

43:04 Sad. And I think at that time his

43:06 daughters weren't living with him anymore.

43:07 And you can kind of can understand.

43:09 Understand why. Yeah.

43:12 OK, So just to go back now to sort of the fairly early

43:17 aftermath of Jamie's murder, the community wanted to rally around

43:22 Jennifer. And in order to do so, like,

43:25 what do you do in times like these?

43:26 People want to throw money at it.

43:28 And I get that because you want to help in some way.

43:30 Money is probably something she would need.

43:33 So one of her friends set up a GoFundMe and another friend set

43:38 up a meal. Train 50 neighbors.

43:42 So, like, they got on board the meal train, Yeah. 50 they were

43:45 either well, either contributing to the meal train or they were

43:47 just or they were dropping off groceries.

43:49 Yeah, like it was the the 50 different people were rallying

43:52 community. Yeah, community, I mean the

43:55 water tragedy, you can't even imagine that happening in your

43:57 street or in your neighborhood, No.

43:59 So hats off to the people of Texas.

44:02 Yes, yeah. That that is just such a lovely

44:05 thing for them to do. Yeah.

44:06 The GoFundMe raised over $60,000.

44:10 Yeah. In a very, very short space of

44:12 time. And Jennifer almost immediately

44:14 started drawing down on that money.

44:15 Yeah. Now I can in a way, understand

44:18 that because obviously Jamie's not earning an income and she

44:23 wasn't employed at the time. Well, she was sort of stood down

44:25 at the time. So I guess you need money to

44:28 live. Well, that and like it was, you

44:31 know, supposed to be able to pay for funerals and there was a

44:34 decision for them to have two separate funerals for Jamie, one

44:38 being in Wisconsin with family and the and friends that they

44:41 lived with there and also one locally there in Texas.

44:44 So, yeah, there was two different two different funerals

44:48 to pay for. That's expensive to do, but so.

44:52 You say that, right? So in Australia, like funerals

44:55 are freaking expensive. Yes, death is expensive.

44:58 Yeah. What blew my mind is when I saw

45:02 this is one of the funerals only cost $6000.

45:04 Yeah, but I'm like, maybe that wasn't was his body not involved

45:08 in that funeral? Maybe because I would imagine

45:11 like the cost of cremation and the cost of all buried would be

45:14 significantly more. I would have thought.

45:17 So maybe that was just a more a memorial that was 6.

45:19 Thousand. It was definitely a memorial as

45:22 well. I.

45:23 Feel. Yeah, I don't know.

45:24 But to me that I was like, that's cheap.

45:26 Yeah, yeah. Well, she turns out she didn't

45:28 pay for it though. No, she didn't.

45:30 So I don't know, even though she had the GoFundMe money and

45:33 that's what she was supposed to really be using it for, she kind

45:36 of put it on or she didn't. She just didn't pay the invoice.

45:38 She didn't pay the. Invoices No.

45:41 Right. Sorry.

45:42 That's where we're at with her. So detectives at this stage were

45:48 growing a bit suspicious because Jennifer was mostly unharmed in

45:53 this. Have you watched the the police

45:57 videos of her interviews? Yes, I have.

45:59 So in her first interview with the police, and as I said, they

46:04 were very gentle with her because, I mean, she had just

46:06 been through hella trauma like of being attacked at this point,

46:09 right? Yeah, she was attacked in this

46:10 as well. So it.

46:13 Was just her husband murdered in front of.

46:15 Her I mean, yeah, So the police are very sympathetic to this.

46:18 So in no way are they pushing her on any of this.

46:20 However, he that would she did mention herself like, you know

46:23 that you can see us. I had a look on my Ring camera

46:25 to see if you could see anything and you can see us leaving the

46:28 house, but you can't see anything else.

46:30 You know, he and he goes, oh, can I have a look at that Now

46:32 being good police officers, they didn't just look at that time

46:35 frame. He said, oh, let's have a look

46:37 back at before this. If, you know, see someone in the

46:39 neighborhood and what else can you see from the camera?

46:42 And it turns out they have the Ring camera at the front of the

46:44 house on like the door, and there's one at the back of the

46:47 house. And so, and this one, this

46:49 camera, you can see some of their yard and it looks over

46:52 into the next door neighbour's yard.

46:54 And he's so he scrolls right back the timeline where it only

46:58 picks up obviously motion. And he sees that there's motion

47:01 around about 2:30 AM on this back camera.

47:03 And he's like, can I just have a look at that?

47:05 And so they're both in this room looking at this on her phone and

47:08 pull it up. And she's like, Oh, yeah, like,

47:10 yeah, there's some motion at 2:30 in the morning that's

47:12 weird. Like, you know, and pulls it up

47:13 and they see in the backyard of the next door neighbors is a

47:18 person. Like they say there's something

47:20 moving. And then there's it's kind of

47:21 two different videos that you can see where this motion has

47:24 been detected. And yeah, they see this person

47:27 walk in through this backyard. And Jennifer, she's like, that's

47:32 really weird because there's no one that lives there.

47:34 It's an abandoned town. It's a, it's a rental and no

47:36 one's lived there for about 12 months.

47:38 Like it's just been empty for 12 months.

47:40 So for someone to be in the backyard, that's really strange.

47:44 And there's a fairly good image of who this is like the and the

47:47 and who you see is it matches the description of herself,

47:53 Jennifer, and also the neighbor who they see and who attacked

47:57 them that that morning and killed Jamie.

48:00 So the cops like, well, this is great evidence.

48:02 Like, you know, like this person's been hanging around.

48:04 This is a this is a personal attack.

48:06 This is this is they've been they've been out and waiting for

48:09 like 5 hours in the backyard of this next door house to come out

48:13 when you come out of your house to walk your dog.

48:16 So they've grabbed that and that's.

48:18 So they've got that in their back pocket of evidence that

48:21 they haven't a reasonable image of who this person is they're

48:25 looking for now too. Yeah, obviously we've also got

48:29 the fact that there's this text message in her phone that they

48:32 find that they're like, where's this who is this person and why

48:37 she's having an emotional affair.

48:38 She's certainly not coming forward saying she's had any,

48:41 any affairs or, you know, in her interview, she also said they

48:44 did speak on, you know, has there been any, you know,

48:46 marital affairs and things like that.

48:47 And she was adamant. No, like there's just that's

48:49 just not the relationship they had.

48:50 And that was that was the greatest thing in life on Earth.

48:53 The two of them loved each other endlessly.

48:56 And she couldn't think that Jamie would possibly be having

48:59 an affair. And neither was she

49:01 categorically not yet here is a text message of her admitting

49:04 that she was at least having an emotional affair.

49:08 So they tracked down who this person was.

49:10 That was on this message and it was this Darren Lopez.

49:15 So because they knew that they didn't have any warrant to go to

49:20 him and if they did in any way indicate to him they're looking

49:24 into him, he would factory reset a phone too like and then they'd

49:27 lose anything that's on his phone.

49:29 So they found a way that they were able to through the company

49:32 that his phone was with that they were able to pull all of as

49:36 much. They couldn't get direct text

49:38 messages as such at this point. What they could get was, you

49:41 know, that there had been a message, not what the message

49:44 was, just that there had been messages or phone calls and what

49:47 to what phone? Number.

49:48 Yep, that's. Right, right.

49:50 And also location, they could get that information from the

49:53 actual company Yeah. So they pulled all this

49:56 information from the phone company.

49:59 Now it turns out this blew my mind.

50:03 I. Know.

50:04 That there had been Between Darren Lopez's phone and

50:09 Jennifer Faith's phone, there was roughly 500 messages a day.

50:17 Yep. So the study is that between

50:19 March of 2020 when they first started texting and January

50:24 2021. So what is this?

50:26 Not even what? 8 months?

50:27 999 months 281,000 text messages which is 5 roughly 5. 100 12 day

50:39 period where they had texted 24,000 times.

50:43 Yeah, anyone wondering what Jennifer was doing to occupy

50:47 herself during the pandemic? Texting a lover.

50:51 Well, according to her, oh, he's just a.

50:52 Best friend. Best friend texting her.

50:54 Best friend, but. What?

50:55 But she was helping. Me look bestie, I don't know

50:57 that I have the thumb strength to fucking text you 500.

51:03 Times a day you are. I don't know.

51:05 You freaking do that. Yeah, so my finger wouldn't get

51:08 as fatigued as yours, but. Seriously, I would have

51:11 repetitive strain injuries in my thumbs.

51:14 There is fucking no way I could text 500 times in a day.

51:17 No. No.

51:19 The mental capacity, no. No, but you would.

51:21 You would literally in order to send 500 texts a day, you would

51:25 have to sit there and be doing it all day and like you'd have

51:28 your phone on you all the time. Like how else would you?

51:31 You couldn't. Oh my.

51:33 God, now, because they weren't even just messaging each other,

51:36 text messaging each other? No, they were also emailing.

51:39 Yep. So this is not even the only

51:40 form of communication. It's like when we have a chat

51:42 going on in WhatsApp and a chat going on in Messenger and a

51:46 voice note going on or something.

51:47 Like been there. Because, but I feel like we do

51:50 that well because we we're talking about different things

51:53 in each. Oh.

51:54 We can have so many different conversations.

51:56 But this would just be I don't even know.

51:58 Like this is so fucked up. Oh, blew my mind.

52:02 The stats on the messaging. Yeah, Oh my God.

52:06 So this is not I mean this. I've just, I've just done a bit

52:09 of a calculator. So how many day, how many hours

52:12 a day are we awake? Like roughly like what 16 hours?

52:15 OK, so 500 maybe or? Less for me.

52:18 For you, Yes. No.

52:19 Awake. I'm awake.

52:20 More than that, yeah. But 500 / 16, that's 31 messages

52:24 of a waking hour. Yeah.

52:26 So that is literally you are sending a message every two

52:29 minutes. It takes like 30 seconds

52:33 probably to type a message or more.

52:36 Especially I mean. I don't know, I did just this.

52:39 This thing is the thing that got me a. 100 percent, 100%.

52:44 And also that would drive me fucking bat shit crazy having to

52:47 just be on my phone. But.

52:49 As the other person in that household, like surely it drove

52:51 Jamie mental. Like get off your fucking phone

52:53 and talk to me or but. Although he was working but then

52:56 she was doing this on the weekends and stuff as well.

52:58 It's not like it stopped on the weekends.

53:00 Oh no. Well, the only time it stopped,

53:03 and this was a very clear indicator for the police, was

53:06 that there was a 28 hour period where the the messages literally

53:10 stop. From 1:00 PM on the 8th of

53:12 October until 5:00 PM on the 9th of October.

53:16 So. And what day was Jamie murdered?

53:17 The morning of the 9th of October.

53:19 So 1:00 PM on the 8th of October, right?

53:21 They stopped communicating even prior to that on that date on

53:25 the 8th of October, between midnight and 1:00 PM on that

53:27 day, there was 133. Text messages in one hour.

53:32 It's like I wouldn't even. I couldn't think.

53:35 That far? Nah.

53:37 What are you writing? Like one one letter per one.

53:40 Word or yeah. Connie, I cannot comprehend the

53:45 level of like, to me, that's OK. If I met someone who messaged me

53:50 that relentlessly, I'd be like, oh fuck off.

53:53 Like that's so needy it's ridiculous.

53:55 Massive ick and what the hell? And text messages that you send

54:00 to each other. OK, so Oh yeah.

54:01 OK, I have one here. Go Where is it on?

54:05 OK, so the messages they were sending to each other, this is

54:09 just one of them. And this is so this is Darren

54:11 Lopez sends to Jennifer. Oh, I so need to fill you with

54:16 hot. Beep.

54:19 And then she replies. Can I say the word or not?

54:21 I don't know if I'm allowed to say the word.

54:22 Say it. OK, I'll repeat.

54:25 Oh, I need to fill you with hot cum.

54:31 And then she replies. Oh God yes.

54:34 Next message. I'm so in love with you.

54:36 Oh. My God, if someone said that to

54:39 me I'd be like fuck. Don't touch me.

54:43 Fuck off. Oh, rank like so rank?

54:49 Yuck, just revolting the the content between them gets worse

54:56 though. It can it and yes it does.

54:59 Like unbelievably, I mean, look, 2 consenting adults, you do you,

55:06 but also maybe don't then. Anyway, we'll, we'll get to

55:11 that. It's it's just so fucking

55:13 disgusting. And just to make this really

55:15 clear to you, this is purely and she she's not wrong in saying

55:18 it's an emotional affair because they never, ever in this time

55:23 period between. So this, this is like they meet,

55:25 they start talking again in the March of 2020.

55:29 This with Jamie, the murder occurs in October 2020.

55:33 So that's what, 6 months? Yep.

55:36 In that six months, they never met up.

55:38 No, no. Never met up.

55:40 But you? OK, So what we know from text

55:44 messages that have since come out and emailed us is that they

55:47 were fully engaging in some in sexual activity over phone.

55:52 Phone, right? Yeah.

55:55 What constitutes, yeah, an affair to me, an emotional

55:59 affair? OK, yes.

56:01 This. Cross this, crosses that.

56:03 Line I I yeah, but at the same time, I don't understand how you

56:08 can be that. I know that they had previously

56:10 had relationship. I get that.

56:12 Yeah, but what they. I don't get this is what this is

56:14 it. OK.

56:14 I started thinking to myself going OK, I had a boyfriend, a

56:18 serious boyfriend in my early 20s who never became my husband.

56:21 I didn't marry. If I if he was to contact me

56:23 today. Yeah, but I want to catch up

56:25 with him for sure. For sure.

56:27 I'd catch up with him. Would I have feelings for him?

56:29 No. That's like so in the past.

56:31 Yeah. And.

56:32 Also, you're different. People, I don't even know who he

56:34 is as a person anymore. That's right.

56:36 He's moved on and had kids and married and like, that's

56:39 absolutely. We've had such different lives

56:41 too, when we were early 20s dating to like, who is who are

56:45 you as a person? I don't know you.

56:46 Yeah. OK.

56:47 Would I want to get to know you as like in friendship?

56:50 Sure. Yeah.

56:50 But can you do that over messages?

56:53 Well. I don't think so.

56:55 Personally, look if they're having phone conversations and

56:58 reconnecting and stuff, I think you can get a vibe of it.

57:02 But and and this progressed to that very.

57:06 Very quickly. Incredibly quick.

57:09 Quickly, I think. Well, Jennifer was primed for

57:13 it. I really, I think what because

57:15 from what we can find, we see from the emails and messages

57:18 what happened was he found her on LinkedIn.

57:19 He actually actively was like oh I want to look up my

57:21 ex-girlfriend and see where she's at in her life.

57:23 Oh. Because you know why?

57:25 Oh yes, yes, this is actually. Really.

57:27 That's really interesting because he was.

57:29 A Special Forces soldier, They and he had access to privileged

57:34 information or like top secret, you know, information he needed

57:38 to have a code word that he used to access that information or to

57:42 verify who he was to the military.

57:44 Yeah. That no one else he was out on

57:46 find out about him it. Couldn't be.

57:48 Something he'd look up on Facebook about him, or find out

57:51 about him by anything else. The only person who could know

57:53 this information would be him. Yeah, yeah.

57:56 And he used the word Angel, which is what he would call

58:00 Jennifer when they were dating. Yes.

58:02 And so that was something that only he knew, but he had then

58:08 because he'd used it for the last 26 years in this is what he

58:13 says. He says.

58:13 She was always at the forefront of my mind, like I always

58:17 whenever I had to give that code.

58:18 But I always thought about it here and I thought.

58:20 There's like a safety net for him because it was literally his

58:23 safety in that if he had to give that code to someone, that was

58:27 to get him the, you know, access.

58:28 Whatever he needed. Help that he needed.

58:30 So it really created this, yeah, a safety net for him.

58:34 And I think psychologically then it's it's made it more than it

58:38 was. For sure for.

58:40 Both of them. Weirdly well, for for him in

58:43 particular, and I think that's what prompted him to then reach

58:45 out and try and find her. Yeah, he.

58:48 So yeah, as you said, you found her on LinkedIn and was able to

58:52 contact her through that. And immediately, like as soon as

58:54 he messaged her, she messaged back then they were emailing

58:58 well. What?

58:59 Interestingly, very, very quickly.

59:01 So he messaged her on LinkedIn saying like, hey, haven't, you

59:03 know, it's Darren and haven't spoken to her in years.

59:05 You know, she came back and went like, how do I know it's really

59:08 you? This is great if it is, but how

59:09 do I really know it's you? And he wrote back, Angel, does

59:14 that help? You know, it's me and which like

59:17 she like went form like latched onto that information.

59:20 She then wrote back this very lengthy e-mail to him like going

59:23 yes, it does, because you know that you know, I'm sorry, she

59:27 just lapped it up. It was really she rent sent him

59:31 like a novel about her life, giving him every detail of her

59:37 life. I mean, if you've seen it and

59:38 read it like it's insane, like the amount of detail that's in

59:41 this e-mail and that was like literally like they're.

59:43 Forced instead of back and forth, but instead of him going

59:46 whoa, whoa, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

59:48 He's like. He actually wrote back, yeah,

59:50 that's right. He wrote back something similar

59:51 to her, like, yeah, all of his background and the way and he

59:55 said in that in that e-mail back to her was when he was like, you

59:58 saved me. You know, you were this person

1:00:00 for me while I was deployed and while all these horrific things

1:00:03 were happening to me, you kept me going.

1:00:05 The thought of you and. And I'm like, you had a wife and

1:00:08 kids at home. You did during all of that.

1:00:10 Yeah, during all of that. And so he look, I mean, I guess

1:00:15 the fact that their breakup was amicable and he obviously had

1:00:20 fond memories of their time together, but to be that intense

1:00:24 is interesting. Yeah, yeah.

1:00:28 Can't come. I don't know.

1:00:29 I really, it's really odd and I get it from his perspective,

1:00:32 like with a brain injury like he's got now, this is another

1:00:35 side of it. So I find this a bit

1:00:37 interesting. So she was speech therapy

1:00:39 trained and yes, worked in a rehab centre.

1:00:43 And what she talked about was that because of her training,

1:00:47 she helped him through things with this brain injury.

1:00:51 And she also knew how to manipulate him a little bit

1:00:55 because of her training. Which I I think that would have

1:00:58 been maybe more her experience, yeah, because she'd worked in

1:01:01 the rehab centre for such a long time and she worked with people

1:01:03 with traumatic brain injuries in the rehab centre.

1:01:06 Yeah, right. So I feel like her work

1:01:08 experience probably went a long way and.

1:01:12 Yeah, He really felt like she was his therapist in a lot of

1:01:15 ways, which I mean, then it's like that's a whole ethical

1:01:17 issue then. Oh fucking no.

1:01:19 Yeah. But then but their their

1:01:21 interactions were sexual from very early on as well.

1:01:25 So it's a very blurry, fucking shitty mix to be fair.

1:01:31 So in that original even message that she sent to her friend

1:01:33 Tina, yeah, she actually even said in that we have a five year

1:01:37 plan now. What the and what the where's

1:01:43 Tina? Like, why is she not calling

1:01:44 this shit out more going like, well, hang on a second is part

1:01:48 of this plan. You need to leave Jamie then and

1:01:50 leave, you know that's. Amicably and that's right,

1:01:54 terminate that relation if that's not something you want.

1:01:57 One of the things she Jennifer claims, and we don't know

1:01:59 whether this is true or not, is that she and Jamie hadn't had

1:02:03 sex in four years to this point, so they didn't.

1:02:07 Her thing was that they were more like friends and roommates

1:02:10 rather than in a in a relationship together.

1:02:14 Yeah, whether or not that's true, We, we.

1:02:15 Don't we don't know. Yeah, but that's what she was

1:02:18 claiming. But that's not the reason.

1:02:19 Claim to learn other things. Yeah, that's right.

1:02:21 Exactly. So I feel like you can't really

1:02:23 believe everything she says. No.

1:02:25 And who who actually knows? Nobody knows what you know.

1:02:29 People's relationships are behind clothes.

1:02:31 Or no, they do not. No, no.

1:02:33 So, you know, take that as you will.

1:02:35 Yeah, but but this was one of the things she used as an excuse

1:02:39 as to why she wanted to leave him.

1:02:40 But yeah, leave him. Yeah.

1:02:42 Then leave him. That's fine.

1:02:44 So basically at this point, like the police are obviously finding

1:02:47 all these messages these, you know, this is clearly a fairly

1:02:50 intense relationship between the two of them over.

1:02:52 Messages 10281 thousand messages for.

1:02:55 Me. Yeah, but they still don't know

1:02:58 what the what so where this motive was and what, like, what

1:03:01 went on here? And they're thinking themselves

1:03:03 that, OK, so maybe, you know, look, he certainly has brain

1:03:08 injuries and things like that, that maybe Darren has snapped

1:03:11 and he's like, I'm taking Jennifer like I wanted for

1:03:13 myself. And he has taken upon himself

1:03:16 and he has murdered Jamie unbeknownst to Jennifer

1:03:18 whatsoever. Like that's that's one theory

1:03:20 they've got going on. They keep diving in a bit more

1:03:23 into what's going on with these messages and keep finding more.

1:03:28 And what they then find is messages that start getting real

1:03:32 emails even. They start getting very unusual.

1:03:35 And they're from Jamie. And so it seemed to them that

1:03:39 Jamie and him were communicating.

1:03:40 So, yeah, this is maybe then when why it's so personal

1:03:43 because Jamie then, as she said to her friend Tina, you know,

1:03:48 Jamie knew about this relationship with with Darren.

1:03:52 Yeah. And so the the cops are sort of

1:03:53 building even more of a story of like, OK, like, so now there's

1:03:56 interaction between Jamie and Darren to create this conflict

1:04:00 that yes, they've that he didn't like him.

1:04:03 And also particularly because a lot of these messages from Jamie

1:04:06 were revolting. Oh, absolutely disgusting

1:04:09 telling, you know, Darren, you know, that he had was going to

1:04:12 do awful things to Jennifer and then also after the fact that

1:04:18 this is what I did to Jennifer and then attaching photos of

1:04:21 what he did to Jennifer. Yeah.

1:04:23 So what you're referring to now is he.

1:04:26 So according to these emails, Jamie has emailed Darren

1:04:31 basically saying that he forced Jennifer to perform oral sex on

1:04:36 him in the spa and he held her head underwater and then she

1:04:40 passed out. And so he had to give her CPR to

1:04:43 bring her back to life. And then he was actually going

1:04:47 to organize so the on the 8th of October.

1:04:50 So the day before Jamie was murdered, it was actually their

1:04:55 15 year anniversary and they'd celebrated and had a nice day.

1:05:01 But what Jamie apparently emailed to Darren was that he'd

1:05:05 actually organized for the on the 9th to for a gang rape in

1:05:11 this hot tub again, he. Wanted to have 10 men and he

1:05:14 already organized 7. Yep, to come and gang rape

1:05:17 Jennifer and that was like his. Gift to her.

1:05:20 To her, Yep. For her 15th anniversary, Yep.

1:05:25 Like absolute revolting at this time.

1:05:29 So obviously Darren is extremely concerned for Jennifer's welfare

1:05:33 at this time. And he says to her, I'm gonna go

1:05:35 to the police. She begs him not to.

1:05:37 She's like, it'll just make everything worse for me.

1:05:39 I'll deny it. If you go to the police, I'll

1:05:41 deny that any of it happened. Yeah, So he says to her, I need

1:05:44 to know that you've got somebody near you who's a safe person.

1:05:47 And she's like, oh, well, how about I give you the contact

1:05:50 details of my work best friend, his name is Rob Schmidt.

1:05:54 And I'll give you his e-mail address and you can contact him.

1:05:58 So they apparently they've been workmates for about 15 years.

1:06:03 So he this Rob emails Darren and basically, no, sorry, Darren

1:06:09 emails Rob first. He introduces himself and says

1:06:12 who he is and, and that he's very, very concerned.

1:06:16 Rob then emails back and says I've never, I never knew Jamie

1:06:20 to be like that. I had no idea that any of this

1:06:23 was going on. Jennifer has never confided this

1:06:25 in me. But let me let me have a chat

1:06:28 with her about it and you know, I'll, I'll definitely protect.

1:06:31 Her. Yeah, he said I'm gonna go there

1:06:32 this weekend, actually. And he goes.

1:06:33 I won't, I won't leave until I've spoken to Darren and to

1:06:36 sorry to Jamie. And I know that he's not gonna

1:06:39 hurt her and or you know, or that we're gonna get the police

1:06:43 involved and stuff. If I if I don't feel like it's

1:06:45 safe, I'll make sure that's what happens.

1:06:48 So Rob then, you know, is emailing back and forth and it

1:06:53 they, they were kind of working each other up.

1:06:55 So it got to the point where Rob said, look, if he ever lays a

1:06:59 hand on Jennifer, I'm gonna kill him.

1:07:01 Yeah. And Darren's like, well, yeah,

1:07:03 absolutely. Like me too.

1:07:05 Yeah. And so it kind of escalated, you

1:07:07 know, certain things were suggested.

1:07:10 Yeah. It was just working themselves

1:07:14 up really. Yeah.

1:07:14 So the police are looking at all these messages going, OK, it

1:07:17 looks like potentially then. Yeah, this is Darren taking it

1:07:21 upon himself to stop this from occurring and in his mind,

1:07:26 protecting this woman that he loves and taking out Jamie.

1:07:31 Yeah. You know who's been abusing

1:07:33 Jennifer? Yeah.

1:07:33 The photos that were attached to these emails were absolutely

1:07:38 awful injuries that she had. Strangulation marks around her

1:07:41 neck? Yeah.

1:07:42 Abrasions, yeah. Bruises.

1:07:45 Really. Bad, like some of them you could

1:07:47 clearly see it was her. Yeah.

1:07:49 Other other photos weren't as clear.

1:07:51 They were, you know, photos of body parts, close-ups, close-ups

1:07:54 of body parts, but that there were a couple that were, you

1:07:57 know, they were definitely injuries that had occurred to

1:07:59 her. You could see her face in them.

1:08:01 So, yeah, they're like, OK, we can understand why he, like, not

1:08:04 saying I understand why you kill anybody, you know, and that

1:08:06 shouldn't get that far. But like going, OK, this is

1:08:09 building a story case really of like what's why this has

1:08:12 occurred potentially and a motive here as to why he would

1:08:15 do that. But then when they looked closer

1:08:19 at these images, it was found that some of them were, as we

1:08:25 said of of Jennifer, of a car accident she had had a new few

1:08:30 years earlier. Eight years.

1:08:31 Yeah. Quite a bit of a gap.

1:08:33 Yeah. That, yeah, there were some

1:08:35 injuries, some severe injuries that she she had from that car

1:08:39 accident. And there were photos from that

1:08:42 and then other images where her face wasn't in those.

1:08:45 They were stock images that she had pulled from the Internet.

1:08:48 Yep. They were not of injuries that

1:08:51 she had endured from abuse from Jamie, no.

1:08:57 Interesting. The other interesting thing is,

1:08:58 so there's also when Jamie emailed Darren about the gang

1:09:05 rape, he said he's got his friend, a friend by the name of

1:09:08 Jeremy Gebler, who was one of Jamie's best friends, and he was

1:09:13 going to come and be one of the people who were going to rape,

1:09:17 rape Jennifer that following day.

1:09:19 And apparently for the fact that this person was named that, that

1:09:24 really made Darren furious because you know, he's he's

1:09:29 organizing this gang rape of this woman that Darren

1:09:32 absolutely loves and he's absolutely devoted to.

1:09:36 So what does Darren decide to do about that?

1:09:41 Well, what we now know is that he hops in his car in his black,

1:09:48 whatever it is, truck, truck. Nissan Titan.

1:09:52 Nissan Titan with a white tee logo in the back windscreen.

1:09:57 He drives from Tennessee through Arkansas into Dallas into Texas,

1:10:04 stupidly puts in Jamie and Jennifer's exact address into

1:10:11 his GPS and drives across state lines with a firearm and shoots

1:10:18 Jamie in cold blood. Yeah, OK, Well, the motive here,

1:10:27 we've just discussed these emails that are going back and

1:10:30 forth, the police like, well, what have we done now?

1:10:32 We have we have found we found it like this is it he's.

1:10:36 Who this is who killed him? The the evidence of who did

1:10:39 this. We know now who and why he did

1:10:42 this. So what they've done is they

1:10:44 have arrested Darren at the same time they've actually pulled it.

1:10:51 Sorry. They've arrested Darren in

1:10:52 Tennessee. Yeah, at the same time they've

1:10:54 pulled Jennifer in for questioning again at exactly the

1:10:57 same time. So they couldn't contact each

1:10:58 other. They were really worried about

1:11:01 Darren because he was special forces trained.

1:11:04 They knew he had this traumatic brain injury.

1:11:06 They were really worried about arresting him on his property.

1:11:09 They were worried they did be booby trapped or something.

1:11:11 Yeah, and his mental health. You.

1:11:12 Know. Yep.

1:11:13 Trigger something. So they decided to arrest him

1:11:15 when he was not at home. They also didn't want him to, I

1:11:18 don't know, blow the place up or destroy something or destroy

1:11:21 evidence. So he was out, I think he was

1:11:24 having breakfast or something with one of his daughters and

1:11:26 they arrested him and he he fully, just very calm, very

1:11:29 calm, was arrested and taken. He's been, he said it.

1:11:33 He said about that, the fact that when he was arrested, in

1:11:37 his mind he thought to himself, OK, I'm being arrested for this,

1:11:42 and it was worth it. Yeah, because I saved Jennifer

1:11:46 from that potential horrific event of that great gang race.

1:11:49 Some quote I heard that he said it was something like I'd rather

1:11:53 be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

1:11:55 Yes, yes, yes. So.

1:11:57 He would rather. Judge by a Jury of. 12 than be

1:12:02 in a coffin. And carried by 6 people.

1:12:03 Which is what he thought was going to eventuate in terms of

1:12:06 Jennifer being killed by Jamie. Yeah.

1:12:09 So. OK, so in his mind he was happy

1:12:12 to wear the consequences. Of that, he was very calm about

1:12:14 being arrested for that reason, that he was like, you know what?

1:12:18 Yeah, that it is what it is. I saved her, yeah.

1:12:20 The police have then gone and searched his home and they did

1:12:23 find the murder weapon in a satchel that also contained a

1:12:26 DVD that he purchased on the way to killing from the local 711 or

1:12:31 whatever. Anyway.

1:12:32 Interesting. I don't I don't know what DVD

1:12:34 was. What was it?

1:12:35 I'm not actually sure. I'm like, was it porn?

1:12:37 I don't know anyway, but they. Found it, Ryan.

1:12:41 They found the murder weapon and it had blood on it.

1:12:44 Turns out the blood matched Jamie's.

1:12:46 The Ballistics evidence also came back that this was the gun

1:12:48 that was used to kill Jamie and. Because it was a gun and it had

1:12:51 crossed state lines, that meant that the federal police became

1:12:54 involved too, so it became out like a higher level of crime.

1:12:57 Yeah, so the FBI did get involved at this point as well,

1:13:00 and they had better forensic techniques to investigate

1:13:05 computers and phones and all of that sort of stuff.

1:13:07 So when the police questioned Jennifer, at the same time

1:13:10 they've also taken Jamie's phone, Jamie's computer, they've

1:13:14 taken Jennifer's phone and Jennifer's computer.

1:13:17 And what they found is that on the day that on the exact same

1:13:24 day that Rob Schmidt was in contact by Darren, his e-mail

1:13:32 address was created. On the exact same day that

1:13:36 Jamie's e-mail address that was used to contact Darren was used.

1:13:42 It was created on that day, Right.

1:13:45 The other thing to note is that Jamie was a high up IT person.

1:13:49 Yeah, and he's written all this incriminating and damning shit

1:13:52 through e-mail. Everyone knows emails not.

1:13:54 Encrypted. Nothing's like, you know.

1:13:56 E-mail is so insecure. Anyone can get into your e-mail.

1:13:58 Really. Yes.

1:13:59 You never write anything in an e-mail.

1:14:01 If it's no, you know. Someone in IT as high up as

1:14:04 particularly as Jamie who knew his shit, Yeah.

1:14:06 He would. Have done that.

1:14:07 He would do that. The other interesting thing is

1:14:10 that Jamie's e-mail address and Rob's e-mail addresses that were

1:14:14 used to contact Darren were both deleted on the same day.

1:14:21 That's a bit curious the. Other thing was when they they

1:14:23 were looking at, you know, these messages, like they could see

1:14:26 what Jennifer was doing. She was texting Darren saying,

1:14:29 you know, like, I know you're currently texting with Jamie,

1:14:32 you know, and she was back and forth with him, but they were

1:14:36 like, but hang on a second, There's no messages between

1:14:39 Darren's phone number and Jamie's phone number.

1:14:41 Like what? We can't even find where this is

1:14:44 occurring that there's no interaction between those two

1:14:46 phones. Turns out it was a different

1:14:51 phone. It wasn't Jamie's phone that the

1:14:54 phone was interacting with. No, it was Jennifer's phone.

1:14:57 So yeah, it was actually Jennifer's phone.

1:14:59 So what They what? They had a code system set.

1:15:01 Up. Sorry, yes.

1:15:02 So Jamie it when Jamie in quotation marks was contacting

1:15:08 Darren through Jennifer's phone, yes, he he would just write a

1:15:11 message. Darren and Jennifer created this

1:15:15 thing where they put 575 at the start of their It's like their

1:15:19 code to say yes, it's me. Jennifer, it's not Jamie.

1:15:22 It's not Jamie. And so they would text 575 I

1:15:26 love you, I think you're amazing them and then and then.

1:15:29 My teenager eye rolls. Sorry.

1:15:32 So yeah, what we know is that it wasn't Jamie texting was it was

1:15:37 constantly and it wasn't Rob emailing and it wasn't Jamie

1:15:41 emailing. Jennifer was doing all of it.

1:15:45 And none of it was true. She was not being abused by

1:15:51 Jamie. Not.

1:15:51 Even. Not even close, apparently.

1:15:54 He never even yelled. He never raised his voice.

1:15:57 He never did anything that was even remotely like questionable.

1:16:04 No. And again, because I come back

1:16:06 to this a little bit. So they had a Bernese Mountain

1:16:08 dog in that home. I'm sorry, but that shit can't

1:16:12 go down when there's a Bernese mountain dog in the home because

1:16:14 that dog will protect to the NTH degree.

1:16:17 I'm shocked that like that dog would not have attacked.

1:16:20 It won't attack the attacker. It will protect their person,

1:16:23 right? So it will Velcro.

1:16:26 So I just, I don't know, it actually makes it really clear

1:16:30 for me when I saw that that was the kind of dog in that home.

1:16:32 I'm like, you'll be protected, you'll be safe.

1:16:37 Just know that from my own. Yeah, that's it.

1:16:40 That's exactly right. And you know, fucking shame on

1:16:43 her to put all this shit out there about Jamie when it wasn't

1:16:48 even true. Absolutely instead.

1:16:50 Of just doing the right thing and just leaving her husband,

1:16:52 who she obviously didn't love anymore, she didn't want to be

1:16:55 with. Anymore weird.

1:16:57 Like I mean they had the almost idyllic life in so many ways.

1:17:01 She had a man in her life who adored her daughter and raised

1:17:05 her as his own. She, they had money.

1:17:08 They were very well to do. They had, they wanted for

1:17:10 nothing. They went on regular holidays.

1:17:13 He worked for an airline for crying out loud.

1:17:14 They would have had very good deals, you know, flying anywhere

1:17:17 they wanted in the world, constantly going on holidays.

1:17:20 They, he was, he was a good company guy.

1:17:23 Like people said he was the guy you wanted on his, on your

1:17:26 trivia team, you know, like he was the guy you wanted to spend

1:17:28 time with. He was, she said it herself that

1:17:32 he was funny, charismatic. Not I shouldn't use that word,

1:17:35 sorry, because that means he's not good.

1:17:37 You know, fun and really intelligent and like what's not

1:17:41 to at that point in your life? Why would you need to do this?

1:17:44 If you don't want to be with him, then don't be with him.

1:17:48 I just. Yeah.

1:17:48 It's like their daughter had grown up as well.

1:17:50 Yeah. You know, mid 20s or early 20s

1:17:53 at this stage. Yeah.

1:17:54 So it's not like she was young and you're like, oh, OK, maybe

1:17:57 I'll stay with him for the sake of their daughter.

1:17:59 Yeah, I just, I don't know. It actually blows my mind.

1:18:04 Absolutely. What we know though, is that

1:18:07 this actually isn't the first time Jennifer attempted or

1:18:11 wanted to off a partner this. Is kind of her MO.

1:18:15 It's her MO. It's really fucking bizarre

1:18:18 actually. Just really quickly before we

1:18:19 get to that, something I meant to mention just before is that,

1:18:24 and this, this is the thing that actually gets me about Darren

1:18:28 knowing that Jennifer was subjected to rape.

1:18:34 This is so this is Darren's truth of it, right?

1:18:36 Is that Jennifer was subjected to rape.

1:18:38 Jamie was the worst kind of abuser.

1:18:42 They used to have these phone sex interactions where they

1:18:48 would actually act out, and this is on text, apparently on voice

1:18:52 and even through e-mail they would text situations about rape

1:18:57 that they would then use in their sexual play.

1:19:01 Yeah, that's so there's clearly something from Jennifer

1:19:05 Jennifer's side of this. This was clearly something for

1:19:07 some real warped reason of some sort of sexual fantasy of hers.

1:19:13 But then as the other partner in this, yeah, wouldn't you kind of

1:19:16 go, if you're experiencing that in your life and it's a

1:19:21 negative, awful thing, full blown, like gross, why would you

1:19:25 want that to then act that out as as sexual pleasure?

1:19:31 Yeah. I, I really find that.

1:19:34 I mean, I get it. Some people like to get tied up,

1:19:35 you know, That's if that's your thing.

1:19:37 But no. But this was this was like

1:19:39 depicting. Yeah, yeah.

1:19:40 What They were, yeah. Doing so I to me that's bizarre

1:19:44 and would that not ring a red like ring a bell for?

1:19:47 James, this is for for Darren, That's it.

1:19:49 Wouldn't you kind of be going like, wait, what's?

1:19:52 I don't want to traumatize you more like that's.

1:19:54 Weird. I don't think we should be doing

1:19:55 that. I mean, I don't know it's but so

1:19:58 right up until like, they're like both, both of them were

1:20:01 arrested. And so as we said, Darren's

1:20:04 arrested for murder. But at first Jennifer's murder

1:20:09 is just arrested for perverting the course of justice because

1:20:15 she wasn't honest in her yet. She'd lied endlessly.

1:20:18 But at this point, they were just saying that like, yeah, she

1:20:21 hadn't come forward saying that there was someone else in her

1:20:23 life that. You know, could then be someone

1:20:25 who would murder her husband because of their relationship.

1:20:29 So even just that fact of hiding that is enough for them to have

1:20:32 gone and arrested her for that. Yeah.

1:20:33 But as they've then uncovered that this is actually her

1:20:37 manipulating this person to have gone and done this.

1:20:41 She without I mean, I I think there were were there was in

1:20:45 their conversations. There was I'm going to kill this

1:20:46 guy like, you know, kind of talk.

1:20:48 But she never actually said to the said to him, you know, kill

1:20:51 him on this day. I want you to do it this like

1:20:53 she didn't go that far. She fully manipulated him like

1:20:56 without having to go that far. Yeah, because of his training he

1:21:00 had and all that and what his life experience was.

1:21:02 She knew that she could do that to him.

1:21:04 I think absolutely. Anyway, so the cops have then

1:21:07 once established all of that, they then pull another one out

1:21:11 on her and then charge her with murder for hire.

1:21:15 So that and that's a whole other level.

1:21:16 And because it's federal as well, because across state

1:21:19 lines, it's comes with a whole lot of things, including the

1:21:22 death penalty. So at this point, they're both

1:21:25 looking at coming to go to trial over this.

1:21:28 And at this point, Darren still believes that this, the, the,

1:21:33 the cops have made this up that it's, it's not, it's, it's

1:21:36 absolutely not Jennifer lying. She's told me the truth that

1:21:40 this is what she was living hell.

1:21:42 And I have saved her from that. He's fully entrenched in that.

1:21:46 The cops really tried and his lawyer really tried to convince

1:21:51 him of this fact that it was Jennifer lying.

1:21:56 Jennifer sent him a letter via a friend and I'm going to read it.

1:21:59 This is just her. So obviously starts with 575.

1:22:06 Just a quick note to say I never lied to you and I never sent you

1:22:10 emails from any account but mine as me.

1:22:14 You. You once said you would never

1:22:16 believe anything about me unless you heard it from me.

1:22:20 I hope that's still true. There is a lot more I wish I

1:22:25 could say but I can't right now, which I find that even just that

1:22:29 statement like really manipulative.

1:22:31 Soon, hopefully if you want to respond, you can write back to

1:22:36 the address on the envelope because she's in prison at the

1:22:38 moment, like in Sophie. So your cousin Tony never sent

1:22:41 the letter you you wrote only only something he got 1.

1:22:46 I don't know what that says. It's lost in it.

1:22:49 So don't go through. Don't go through him anymore.

1:22:53 8381. Another code of some sorts.

1:22:55 Still now and forever. So she's still trying to

1:22:58 manipulate him and still lying whilst they're sitting in their

1:23:02 own cells in prison. Eventually, though, his lawyer

1:23:05 does get through to him. Well, apparently they, the

1:23:08 lawyer ended up getting one of his daughters to talk to him and

1:23:12 talking through all of the evidence.

1:23:13 Yeah. And it was sitting with his

1:23:15 daughter, who was like, dad, you know, you've really got to look

1:23:18 at this for what it is. Yeah.

1:23:20 That's what got him to think about it.

1:23:22 And then very quickly he looked at it obviously with a very

1:23:27 different perspective. And he very, very quickly turned

1:23:30 on Jennifer for seeing, seeing her for exactly what she'd done

1:23:33 and, and how she'd manipulated him.

1:23:36 And he decided he would then give evidence against her and

1:23:40 basically told the police everything, absolutely

1:23:44 everything. And good job that he did,

1:23:47 because that enabled the sentencing of Jennifer to be

1:23:50 that she was put in prison for life.

1:23:52 But it also meant that she pled guilty up until that knowing

1:23:57 that fact right building up. That's that's and that's why she

1:23:59 sent this letter to him. Like she's trying to keep him on

1:24:01 the hook that, you know, we're both in this together.

1:24:03 Like we're you know, we're we're forever because the minute like.

1:24:07 So she was planning on going to trial.

1:24:08 She was going to defend this that, you know, but I was being

1:24:10 abused and go fully in on it. That I'm not lying.

1:24:14 That's what happened to me. And he was protecting me.

1:24:17 Yeah. And so that was what her plan

1:24:18 was until the cops came to her and said, Darren's going to

1:24:23 testify against you. He's he's worked you out and

1:24:26 that's what made her turn and say right, well, I'll plead

1:24:29 guilty. So that and on with the plea

1:24:32 deal, what with that was I'll plead guilty if the death

1:24:34 penalty comes off the table. So she, yeah, then they were

1:24:39 able to sentence her very heavily, like she'll spend the

1:24:42 rest of her life in prison. Exactly where she fucking

1:24:45 deserves to be. Yeah, she's dangerous, man.

1:24:48 Oh, really, really dangerous. I find her psychologically

1:24:52 fascinating. Yeah, what the fuck goes on in

1:24:56 that brain? Fuck only knows.

1:24:58 Fuck only knows. So Darren was also charged with

1:25:01 murder? Yeah.

1:25:02 Now his lawyers argued that he should receive a charge of

1:25:06 manslaughter. Yeah, it was decided and argued

1:25:10 that it wasn't manslaughter because it was premeditated.

1:25:13 And manslaughter is something that happens in the moment.

1:25:16 It's not something that happens, you know, weeks, months, days of

1:25:20 kind of planning or yeah, thinking about it and.

1:25:22 The other argument that they had was around the fact that there

1:25:25 was defence. He was like, you know, but he

1:25:29 wasn't because that it talks about in that legally it talks

1:25:32 about immediate danger, you know, and so in it's not.

1:25:35 Like Jamie was armed while they were going for a walk with that.

1:25:38 No, but he drove from Tennessee to Dallas.

1:25:41 Therefore it's not immediate. It was 10.

1:25:44 Hours of drive there was whatever.

1:25:45 Plenty of time for him to have contacted police or have someone

1:25:49 else involved like who was closer by to intervene.

1:25:52 There was different decisions he could have made and I get it

1:25:54 from the perspective of, but his brain injury really

1:25:58 unfortunately impacted him here to make decisions that were the

1:26:03 right decisions. Yeah.

1:26:04 I feel for him in that and the manipulation that she had, the

1:26:07 number she had done on him was was well, good.

1:26:10 Like, yeah, yeah, absolutely. But he definitely had other

1:26:13 options if he was a fully mentally well person.

1:26:17 Yeah. They actually, because I love

1:26:19 America for this court TV, you can watch his trial in full.

1:26:25 Yeah. Including the fact that because

1:26:28 his trial went on for a little bit with lots of bits and pieces

1:26:30 and you kind of didn't know where it was going to go, but he

1:26:33 actually sits on the witness box and he testifies.

1:26:36 And in that when he's, when his lawyer is questioning him, I, I

1:26:40 fully fell for, I was really empathetic towards him in that.

1:26:44 And because you could see in him the remorse and the regret of

1:26:47 what he had done absolutely comes through that he now with

1:26:51 the knowledge he's got that this was not real.

1:26:55 He's fully he like he, he now he he said something around the

1:26:59 fact of like, I hear people talk about how what a good person he

1:27:03 Jamie was and how that just makes me feel sick that I've

1:27:07 taken. He talks constantly around.

1:27:09 He's taken him away from Amber. Yeah.

1:27:11 As a father myself, that to know that I have now removed a father

1:27:15 from a daughter's life, whether stepfather or not, she's his

1:27:18 daughter. And he was really the way he

1:27:21 spoke. Yeah.

1:27:22 Oh, same. Same, he said in in that

1:27:25 testimony, he said if I didn't do something, she was going to

1:27:27 die. That was what he really.

1:27:29 Believed. Yeah.

1:27:32 Oh, but then yeah, obviously then the the prosecution took

1:27:36 over in terms of questioning him.

1:27:37 And that didn't mean they did they they running took him

1:27:41 through the wringer. Oh absolutely.

1:27:42 She went nuts. You know what?

1:27:44 And I was doing her. I do see her that perspective

1:27:47 and I do get it as well. He was sentenced to 62 years in

1:27:53 jail. He is up for parole, I believe

1:27:55 in 2051, which would put him at about 80 years of age.

1:27:59 He's still going through some appeal processes.

1:28:02 Not appealing the conviction. No, he appealing.

1:28:05 He could have been convicted. Absolutely.

1:28:07 Just appealing The length of time, the sentencing.

1:28:09 Yeah. Which I find really fascinating

1:28:10 that in their legal system, it was the jury who sentenced him.

1:28:14 I know not the judge, which I find that really fascinating

1:28:18 that I wonder if it was judge sentencing, not jury sentencing,

1:28:23 whether that would have changed would.

1:28:24 They take into account the traumatic brain injury.

1:28:26 Would they take into account the fact that he was very easily

1:28:29 manipulated by Jennifer? Would they take into account

1:28:33 that Jennifer had actually tried this on before?

1:28:35 Like, as in, you know, this wasn't the first time she tried

1:28:37 to manipulate someone into murdering someone.

1:28:40 Yes. Yes, you know, there's so many

1:28:42 things. Just general good behaviour and

1:28:43 his remorse and regret. Oh for sure.

1:28:45 Like, yeah. Absolutely he should be in

1:28:47 prison. Yes, he agrees with that, but I

1:28:50 think in his mind he would like to see that he would be out

1:28:52 before the age of 80. Yeah, for something that he,

1:28:55 he's not, he's not a risk to the community.

1:28:57 No. And that, and that's what his

1:28:59 lawyers are saying. That's the argument for, you

1:29:01 know, a little bit of clemency. Yeah, Is that he will never do

1:29:05 this again. He's not gonna kill somebody

1:29:07 else. I can guarantee he won't ever

1:29:09 start up a relationship with someone else.

1:29:10 The trauma of that alone would be for sure.

1:29:13 Yeah. Once bitten, twice charged.

1:29:15 Yeah. That's it, yeah.

1:29:16 So, yeah, that's, you know, I guess that's up to the American

1:29:20 judicial. System, yeah, it could still

1:29:22 come to play. As I said, there's still appeals

1:29:25 playing out. Yeah, yeah.

1:29:26 And I'm I'm intrigued to see what happens with that.

1:29:28 Yeah, me too. Yeah, me too.

1:29:31 What a fascinating 1. In terms of previous partners in

1:29:34 this, what went on there as well, I found that pretty

1:29:36 fascinating. So because there.

1:29:38 So there was obviously her first husband that yeah, she fell

1:29:40 pregnant to and then moved on very quickly to then husband #2

1:29:45 Rick. It was his name now he was told

1:29:50 a similar story to what Darren was that her first husband was

1:29:54 abusive and you know, listen, she'd been through hell with him

1:29:57 so and he he had times of oh God, I just want to kill him

1:30:01 like how dare he treat me like that.

1:30:02 Well, she. He says that that Jennifer kind

1:30:05 of led him to that. It wasn't really even his idea.

1:30:08 No, but he sees now. Or well, especially now knowing

1:30:10 what's happened with Jamie. Yeah, he's like, Oh my God, that

1:30:13 could have been me. Yes, but so their marriage ended

1:30:17 very quickly because he got these messages from two guys who

1:30:22 told him information that he's like, that's fucked up.

1:30:25 That's actually not true. What the hell?

1:30:27 Oh, no, that's. And they messaged him saying

1:30:29 that he was abusing Jennifer. Yeah.

1:30:31 And he's like, well, I'm not. What?

1:30:34 And that's, and that's what made him twig and go hang on a

1:30:37 minute. She's accusing me now of the

1:30:40 stuff she accused your ex of. And none of the men have done

1:30:44 this to her. This is her and he was I'm out

1:30:49 and ended the marriage. So I think probably good he

1:30:53 didn't have the traumatic brain injury to then be easily

1:30:56 manipulated by her. She, I mean, she's the one about

1:30:59 a box that is for damn sure just.

1:31:03 Even like looking at the way she cried to the media after Jamie

1:31:06 died, I. Have to say her interviews like

1:31:09 with the police, the initial interview she did with the

1:31:11 police and the media stuff she did unbelievable a. 100% even

1:31:16 the screams that you can hear from the neighbors.

1:31:19 CCTV not CCTV. I get being able to fake that

1:31:24 because did she? Know that it was going to

1:31:25 happen. No, she had no idea it was going

1:31:27 to occur. Yeah, so that was easier to fake

1:31:30 even it because I guess at the moment, do you even think it's

1:31:33 not? It's not him.

1:31:34 Like she wouldn't have even known it was him until it came

1:31:36 close enough. Or she knew it was he was on his

1:31:38 way because didn't she? Because they stopped

1:31:40 communication. Please stop the communication.

1:31:42 But I don't know if they communicated he was coming

1:31:44 though. No, I I well, but then but she

1:31:46 must have known something was up.

1:31:47 They were texting 30 times an hour to nothing.

1:31:49 I feel like she must have known. Must have known something.

1:31:52 But I mean, I guess, yeah. She didn't know what he was

1:31:53 going to do, how it was going to happen.

1:31:54 Yeah. Or when.

1:31:55 So, yeah. But sitting in that police

1:31:57 interview, that initial police interview, I mean, if someone,

1:32:00 you could very easily watch that clip and go, this is a woman

1:32:04 who's been through fucking hell and she's innocent.

1:32:07 This is the wife of a, you know, a tragically murdered husband.

1:32:11 Yeah, I could believe that someone would do it.

1:32:14 And the police did, too. They were like, OK, we're

1:32:16 looking at an innocent person here.

1:32:18 Yeah. Yeah.

1:32:19 She's good at what she does. I'll give her that.

1:32:22 But for her out, The other very interesting thing I found.

1:32:26 Oh, God. Was that Amber?

1:32:29 Yeah. Her daughter.

1:32:30 Yeah, still communicates with her and visits her in prison so

1:32:33 they speak at least twice a week.

1:32:35 I. Did not know that I I knew Amber

1:32:37 was still like, she'll still post things on social media

1:32:41 about Jamie and about how he she misses him and he was such an

1:32:45 amazing father and all that. I didn't know that she still

1:32:49 had. She still had.

1:32:50 Regular contact. Regular as in weekly, more than

1:32:56 once a week contact. I couldn't believe that I was

1:32:59 like. I guess I mean it's her mum and

1:33:01 she's but no one else but fucking.

1:33:03 Nah, birthdays. That's about it.

1:33:05 Sorry. Christmas.

1:33:06 Maybe I'd make a contact with her mate at best.

1:33:08 I don't even know if I would do. No, I'm saying absolutely.

1:33:12 I would be very down for that. Yeah, Yeah, but I mean, never.

1:33:17 I don't know. Wow, that's yeah.

1:33:21 I'd love to know what she what her thoughts are.

1:33:25 I know, very important to me. Sorry, but I did find out that

1:33:28 at least Amber has Maggie the dog and Maggie's living with

1:33:31 Amber so that Maggie's safe. Maggie's safe and and OK and

1:33:36 Maggie didn't get injured in any of.

1:33:38 The no, I'm quite surprised at the dog's reaction to it all,

1:33:42 that there wasn't an injury to the dog or anything in this

1:33:44 situation cause that the dog didn't get in between.

1:33:47 Yeah, like I'm glad. The dog was on a leash though.

1:33:51 Yeah, but that. No, they let go of the leash.

1:33:52 Who? I think.

1:33:53 Yeah. OK.

1:33:55 Jennifer had the leash. Yeah.

1:33:56 And she let go of it. Oh, OK.

1:33:57 Not gonna go anywhere. That dog.

1:33:59 Yeah, No, she. But she was all around the area

1:34:01 because the neighbors said that too, that the dog was just

1:34:03 awfully, you know, wandering around with the lead hanging

1:34:05 off. Yeah, right.

1:34:06 Yeah, yeah. My goodness.

1:34:09 All right. Oh wow, mind blown.

1:34:15 Mind blown. Crazy.

1:34:16 Yeah, I mean crazy. I just, I just want to honestly

1:34:19 say though, this is not a typical scenario any means.

1:34:24 We believe victims and 990,000,000 times out of however

1:34:29 many women tell the truth about this.

1:34:32 This is not, I mean, we don't want any latching onto like, you

1:34:34 know, I see all women lie about this stuff.

1:34:36 It's not true because it is not the case at all.

1:34:39 This is so not the norm. It's that a female lies about

1:34:43 these sorts of abuse occurring, so just want to put that out

1:34:46 there. Yeah, I think that's a really

1:34:48 good point. Yeah, a really, really good

1:34:49 point. And and as you said, we believe

1:34:51 victims. And that's probably why Darren,

1:34:55 yeah, you know, went believed everything he had to say.

1:34:58 He had no reason not to. Because he was such a good

1:35:01 person himself. Yeah.

1:35:02 And but at the same time, he was so tragically.

1:35:06 Yeah. Yeah.

1:35:07 It's just tragic in so many ways that she picked her target, that

1:35:12 is for damn sure. She found a damn good target for

1:35:15 her incessant lies and some warped sexual gratification.

1:35:20 So I don't even, I don't don't get that.

1:35:24 I just can't comprehend. It no.

1:35:26 Me neither. Me neither.

1:35:28 All right, next week we are back in Australia, Margaret and

1:35:31 Shawna Tapp. So that actually happened down

1:35:34 the road from. Not far from.

1:35:36 Where we live, so it's a That's a.

1:35:39 Real close track. So I'm not old enough to

1:35:41 remember this one that wells OK. I've listened to a few podcasts

1:35:45 about it in the past, so I've got a a rough idea.

1:35:47 Yeah, that's how, that's how I know this story.

1:35:49 I don't know it from, but living in the time no.

1:35:53 Not far off though, fuck off. You'd go there.

1:35:57 That's why I'm trying to get ahead of it.

1:36:00 All right, I hope everyone has a really wonderful week and we'll

1:36:02 see you again next week for another episode of Two Crime

1:36:05 Besties. So true.

1:36:06 Stay curious, crime besties. Bye.