Episode 59 - Sheree Beasley and Robert Arthur Selby Lowe

0:14 Welcome back Crime Besties to another episode of Two Crime

0:18 Besties with your bitches. Megan, Emma.

0:20 The pictures are back. Yes.

0:23 Who's back? We're recording this on a Sunday

0:26 morning, very different to our normal timing.

0:29 So we're just like slightly more unhinged than normal maybe?

0:32 Maybe. And we didn't even have wine at

0:33 breakfast. I don't know why not, actually.

0:36 What did we do? My perfect time for Mimosa.

0:38 Oh yeah, we really missed an opportunity.

0:41 Did how did that? Occur.

0:42 No, I I blame you. Yeah, I threw it because I was

0:45 late. It was fine, it was fine.

0:49 But yes, pre recording we had a lovely breakfast so we're well

0:54 and truly fuelled and ready to go for recording today.

0:57 But yes, the reason for the delay we normally record on a

1:00 Friday is because it has been a mental week for you in

1:05 particular. But even without, I don't even

1:08 know how you've gotten through this week, but even without all

1:11 of your extra things, it's just been a mental week anyway.

1:14 It was going be a busy week no matter what.

1:16 Yeah. And then, then, then just, you

1:18 know, life became too difficult. This it.

1:21 Was just one of those things where I just feel like shit was

1:23 piling on you left, right and center.

1:25 Literally, I think I sent you a message one day morning this

1:28 week of just like this week can go suck a bag of Dicks.

1:31 Yeah, yeah, it was all a bit much.

1:33 So we had a just just baseline, right?

1:36 We had a school dress up day. Yeah.

1:39 Then we had the kids school production, which was on

1:41 Wednesday night and Thursday night.

1:43 Yeah, absolutely gorgeous. Oh, that.

1:45 Was so. Gorgeous.

1:46 Oh, so gorgeous. And then.

1:49 Yeah, so that was just too. Late night anyway, and then, you

1:52 know, yeah, the usual sports stuff in between that you could

1:55 fit in and yeah. And then and then on top of

1:59 that, you just had so much other stuff going on.

2:01 And then I'm like, you actually cannot on Friday.

2:04 I insist. You need to actually take a day.

2:07 Yeah, chill out. I.

2:08 Can't tell you how much I appreciated that when I hadn't

2:11 even entered my head. I was because I had not got to

2:13 the point of researching to the where I would what normally want

2:16 to be that I was like just going to have to find time like

2:21 somewhere like it was. I would have to.

2:23 I was going to say to you, you know, like, in my head, I was

2:25 like, well, if if you're busy Friday morning, then when we

2:28 started later, you know, then I could go and sit in a cafe

2:31 somewhere and, you know, plow through everything and, like,

2:34 you know, hardcore cram it. But like, yeah, it hadn't even

2:37 entered my head of, like, moving the day until.

2:39 So when you message me that, I was like, oh, my God,

2:44 Hallelujah. There's a break in this.

2:48 Get a day to rest. Were you able to do anything

2:51 nice for yourself on Friday? I mean, I don't know about nice,

2:54 but just, I just took a step back.

2:56 Good. You know, in that I just, yeah,

2:59 I got home after we'd done. We caught up.

3:02 Yeah, it was randomly. And then, yeah, I went home and

3:05 I, I'd picked up groceries and stuff like that, that when I got

3:09 home, I literally did the bare minimum of what needed to get

3:12 done. Got a load on, got a load hung

3:14 out, you know those bits. And then when I'm sitting down,

3:18 oh. Yay, good for you.

3:19 Did you catch up on some like real trash TV?

3:22 Over the weekend I have, I'm all caught up on all my housewives,

3:25 although I haven't started one that I'm.

3:28 I'm very wanting to start London, yeah.

3:31 I can't wait to watch London. I haven't started it yet either.

3:33 Well, it's only one episode out. Yeah, right.

3:35 I wasn't sure exactly how far. Behind I was no, you're just.

3:38 You're not. You're 1.

3:38 OK, that's right. I'm not feeling bad there

3:40 because I'm just, I'm so into the other ones.

3:42 I don't want to overload that. I'm like, I need to just take in

3:46 what I've got going on. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I get it, I

3:50 get it. I'm still actually a couple

3:51 behind on OC. OK, but can't wait.

3:54 Mental. It's mental, but I can't wait to

3:58 start London, so I'm gonna have to, I don't know, figure that

4:01 out at some point. Yeah, but it's worth it, worth

4:05 making the time for the. Definitely.

4:07 I have to say because of a few episodes back, we got into the

4:11 Doctor death one right and Joshua Jackson.

4:16 Fuck, I just love him. Well, I've gone back and

4:18 rewatched Dawson's Creek. Have you?

4:20 Is it as good the second? Time, my guilty pleasure of.

4:23 Recent. Is it as good?

4:25 I have to say it's it's as good, but at the same time I see it

4:30 from a completely different perspective.

4:32 Yeah. And fuck me, Dawson Leary, he's

4:37 a narcissistic piece of shit and his.

4:39 Dad, Yeah. Oh my God.

4:41 Yeah. Oh my God, yeah.

4:43 It's next level. I never saw that in the show

4:45 when I watched it. Of course.

4:46 I mean, we were kids and. Now I see it and go Oh my God,

4:50 it just makes me love Pacey even more.

4:51 Oh, I know, right? Well, I haven't I haven't

4:53 revisited it in adulthood, but I know like the the character like

4:58 Dawson, he was so problematic. I even remember at the time I'm

5:02 like how can anyone actually like this guy?

5:04 But but I almost don't want to visit nostalgia.

5:07 I don't want to change what it is in my mind.

5:10 Well, I'm watching at the moment, kind of going.

5:11 I can't remember, Was I rooting for Dawson at this point?

5:15 Like where I'm at right now? I.

5:16 Ever rooted for? Dawson and I can't remember

5:18 which, I think, is that what we're supposed to be wanting?

5:21 Is Dawson to be to win or am I? Because I'm like, I'm all I'm,

5:24 I'm all team Paisy, 100% team Paisy.

5:27 And I think I would have been back then too.

5:29 Oh, I I was, I had Joshua Jackson posters all over my

5:32 walls. I just wanted to marry him.

5:33 Yeah. To this day I want to marry

5:35 actually. Saw an interview with him

5:36 recently. Yes, my God, you know he split

5:39 up with his wife. I know so I know you know his.

5:45 House burnt down in those in the LA fire.

5:47 He was being interviewed, a part of the interview he spoke about

5:50 Yeah. And, oh, he's just beautiful,

5:53 gorgeous. The way he was talking about his

5:54 child and how, like, the child had gone off to mum's, you know,

5:58 while when this occurred. And he goes, and that was kind

5:59 of good because it gave me a week to find somewhere for us to

6:02 live and, you know, and, like, get prepared for them bringing

6:05 his child back into the mix to kind of go, this is where we're

6:08 at and this is what's going on. And he talked about how his

6:10 child processed it and everything.

6:11 And it was just, oh, my God, he was so beautiful.

6:16 Oh, my God. Yeah.

6:19 Yes, please, yes. Please.

6:21 Yeah, that was my porn. Watching an interview with Josh

6:25 Jackson. Yeah, fair.

6:27 Yeah, I get that. I really, really get that.

6:29 Yeah, we've had some incredible weather this week and it has

6:31 inspired some spring cleaning in me.

6:34 Oh, God. And so on Friday, because we

6:37 had, you know, I, I had a day sort of free then because we

6:41 weren't doing our podcast. So we bumped into each other at

6:44 Kmart, yes. And I was getting stuff to.

6:47 Spending $5 spending. $5 plus $5 + 5 dollars which somehow

6:51 totaled $150.00 but anyway because I wanted to like redo

6:56 some storage stuff in my bathroom well.

6:59 Yeah. 4 hours later I came out of the bathroom just a shell of

7:05 my former self, but I had thrown out like all of my expired

7:11 makeup and, you know, all that shit that just accumulates and I

7:14 haven't used in ages all the skin care that I've opened and

7:17 just not used and whatever. Yeah.

7:19 And I'm down to like bare bones now and it is giving me.

7:23 Life. Oh yeah.

7:24 Oh my God. I need to do that desperately

7:26 too. Actually, that's one of my How

7:28 long does it actually take? I need.

7:30 To Well, it actually took me 4 hours yeah well and that was

7:33 like literally taking off everything, washing everything.

7:36 I washed all my makeup brushes. I I did like, deep cleaned the

7:40 entire bathroom. Yeah.

7:42 So it was incredibly satisfying. Is that my beige flag?

7:48 She. Enjoys a spring clean?

7:53 You know you're old when? Yeah.

7:56 Oh yeah. Boring, yeah, but really, I

7:58 loved it. I love a good organization like

8:01 it's, yeah, it does bring you life.

8:03 It really did. Yeah.

8:04 And it's really sort of inspired me to now do a bit more spring

8:07 cleaning and cleaning out around the house.

8:08 I cleaned out our front hall cupboards the other day.

8:11 I don't know. I'm just.

8:12 I love this time of year refresh, reset for spring and

8:16 summer. I can't wait for the nice warm

8:18 weather to, like, continue. Yeah, it's great.

8:21 Yeah. Although I think this week's

8:22 gonna be really wet. I want the sun more like what

8:26 we've got today. Yes, I know.

8:27 It's so nice. Yeah, so.

8:29 So nice. Good, good.

8:30 We need a much better week than last week.

8:32 Yes, please. Although I just feel like this

8:35 term at school, it's going so quickly because it's every week

8:38 there's been something on. It's just so busy.

8:40 Yeah, as I said to you this week, it's term 3.

8:42 Nothing happens in Term 3. Let's put it in Term 3.

8:44 It's always boring in Term 3. Let's put it in Term 3.

8:47 That's the school. There's a lot.

8:50 Everything goes into Term 3. There's no report writing and.

8:53 Yeah, OK. Have you ever had anything on in

8:55 Term 3? So we'll put it in Term 3.

8:56 Everything's in Term 3. Everything's in Term 3.

8:59 It's. Really.

9:00 Although I feel like at Christmas time last year we were

9:03 saying that about term four, Term 4's busy.

9:06 Like there's always the extra Christmas concerts, there's all

9:10 that stuff that goes with. Yeah, I think we'll just need to

9:13 dial it back a bit. Do we really need all that extra

9:17 stuff? Like, I mean, don't be wrong,

9:18 production definitely needed to occur.

9:20 That was a core memory for children doing that stuff.

9:23 I love it. Love how much my kids, my kid

9:26 loved it. You know, I even sat through it

9:29 twice because it was so sweat. Cluttons for punishments.

9:35 Yeah, yeah, it's good the second time.

9:40 But yeah, no, those things need to occur.

9:41 But there are certain things that we could remove.

9:44 I feel, yeah, that we don't. Need make them.

9:46 Make them during school time. I'd love the book pro to do

9:50 that. Yeah.

9:51 Yeah, yeah, the costume shit for that.

9:54 I mean, I completely cheaped out this year in that made him wear

9:58 a T-shirt that said pretend I'm a frog because I couldn't find a

10:02 fucking frog costume. I, I think I sent you a photo at

10:06 5:00 the night before, so 5:00 on last Sunday night.

10:10 There was construction paper from one end of our dining table

10:13 to the other because I had to figure out how to make a

10:16 platypus bill and a platypus table table table because Ollie

10:21 wanted to go as Perry the Platypus to book day we got.

10:25 Out of. Phineas and Ferb, which is ATV

10:28 show, but there is a book I used to, I used to be so like, no,

10:33 you're not going as anything from Timmy.

10:35 It has to be from a book only. And now I'm like, I actually

10:37 don't care. Yeah.

10:38 My eldest I was like that but when my youngest came on who was

10:41 mad Spiderman had every had every Spiderman costume under

10:44 the sun as. And also never removed a

10:46 Spiderman costume. Knew his body.

10:47 Oh. My God, trying to get those

10:48 things washed. Ohh, remember that.

10:51 Ohh I do ohh, I remember. Yeah, so when he like when we

10:55 got to book weeks with him and he was like, I wanna be

10:57 Spiderman, I was like, oh fuck. It sure like.

10:58 Whatever you do, you Boo. I'm arguing with you.

11:01 Pick my battles. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

11:03 So, yeah. That that that died with that.

11:05 So that we we found Spiderman books.

11:07 It's fine. Yeah, everyone can.

11:09 Everything. I feel like you can find a book

11:10 for anything. Like there were kids in

11:11 basketball outfits and. You know, previously basketball,

11:14 it's been book week slash numeracy week at our school and

11:19 that's why like there was kids that I I know they come and

11:21 recycled. Costumes of Rubik's cubes and

11:23 stuff. So but this this year they they

11:24 dropped the numeracy side of it. It didn't get mentioned.

11:27 Yeah, it really, that really threw me because my kids have

11:30 always chosen numeracy based costumes.

11:32 Yeah. So that actually threw me

11:35 because I feel like they're easier.

11:36 Oh totally. My son just wore it's Steph

11:39 Curry get up and oh, number 30. 30 yeah, it's got numbers on it

11:43 last year my kids both went as an Uno card, which was easy do

11:46 you remember yes, that was an easy one to make but Oh yeah I

11:52 mean I do love it and it is fun and I love that primary schools

11:56 are fun and you know that's. A great.

11:57 I didn't need the fun. Do we need the fun at all?

12:01 I didn't find the. Fun last Sunday, So it's 5:00

12:04 making this fucking costume. Yeah, but anyway, it's done now

12:08 and we're done for Book Week for another year.

12:10 But you know, like every time you do that, you're setting

12:13 yourself up for the next year that you've got to maintain

12:15 that. Level.

12:17 Oh, mate, this was so basic. That's why this could not have

12:20 been more basic. I'll show it to you when we.

12:22 Yeah, yeah, it is. It was the worst thing I've ever

12:25 made. I couldn't have put.

12:28 I really probably couldn't have put any less effort into it.

12:31 OK, cool, my less effort. Pretend I'm a frog.

12:34 Yeah, but you iron that on you. Iron that.

12:37 I mean, that's effort. That's about the effort I went.

12:39 To actually, as my mum would say if I got an iron out, it's got

12:42 to be serious. Yeah, that's.

12:43 True. If I get an iron out, that's

12:44 true. My iron is only.

12:46 You know you owned an iron. Oh, it's just for your iron on.

12:48 Don't I? I don't own an ironing board.

12:51 OK. Because I don't iron iron.

12:55 So how do you decrease your clothes?

12:58 Just wash well and hang out well.

13:00 But even if you hang it like you still, it's still they get hot.

13:04 I'm hot. It's fine, it's just irons

13:05 itself. It irons on your body.

13:12 Hey, at least that perimenopause is doing something for you.

13:15 It's got to be useful. For something.

13:18 Oh, I'm looking forward to that. Then no.

13:20 No, you're not. Yeah.

13:25 OK, so shout outs for today. We have had five new Patreons

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14:26 We did get one comment this morning, but OK, yeah, we'll

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14:38 Why would you bother doing? I also feel.

14:40 Like any publicity is good. Well, if you want to comment.

14:43 It actually pushes the algorithm in the.

14:45 Other way like. You think you like telling us

14:47 that we suck when we you're actually just making more people

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14:51 So thank you. Yeah.

14:52 Thanks. Appreciate it.

14:53 Appreciate it. But I mean, when we get like one

14:55 of those out of the other hundreds of phone call, a phone

14:58 call, 100 messages, yeah, You do you, Boo.

15:01 Yeah. We're not everyone's cup of tea,

15:03 and we're OK with that. Yeah.

15:05 Totally, totally, totally. Yeah.

15:07 All right, should we get into today's episode?

15:09 Let's. Let's do this.

15:11 This is. Yeah, this is a tough one

15:13 because it relates to the murder of a young girl.

15:17 So if that's something that you don't feel like you can listen

15:20 to, please just don't. It's a it's a tough, yeah, very,

15:24 very tough one to listen to. Today we're talking about the

15:27 murder of Cherie Joy Beasley. So she was born on the 25th of

15:32 February 1985 S same year I was born.

15:34 Yeah. And that, I just feel like that

15:36 hits home. Yeah.

15:38 So much because we grew up in the same time.

15:41 Yeah, you would be the same age. Same age, you would be in the

15:44 same year level at school and it's just she.

15:46 Should be celebrating her 40th birthday this year with.

15:49 All of her friends and her family and she's not.

15:51 Her life was really, really horrifically taken from her in

15:57 1991 when she was about 6 years of age.

16:00 So we we've sort of talked about how we're going to present this

16:05 case because there's sort of really two key people that we

16:09 need to talk about. So yeah, should we start with

16:14 Sheree? Sheree and her life.

16:15 And her life. Yeah, I think that's the best

16:17 way to start, yeah. So Cherie, as I said, was born

16:22 in 1985 to dad Anthony and mum Carrie Greenhill.

16:27 She was described so she was the first to born to both of her

16:31 parents and she was described as being quite a Placid and lovely

16:36 baby, but I think by the time she was a toddler she was quite

16:39 the handful. Yes, I believe she they went

16:42 along to a play group her mum took her along to at one stage

16:45 and they were asked to leave because Cherie was quite

16:49 rambunctious. Can you imagine being asked to

16:52 to be, to be removed, like, oh, sorry, don't come back to play

16:55 group. This is all a bit much for us.

16:57 Like, she must have been pretty unspirited.

16:59 Yeah. Yeah, I mean, look, if you look

17:02 at the photos of her that you do see all night and you can see

17:05 this like real cheeky but incredibly gorgeous, small that

17:08 she's got that you just go. Yeah, I can just imagine her

17:11 causing a few few issues. Yeah.

17:12 You know, but in the most gorgeous of way.

17:16 Yeah. Only a toddler can I.

17:17 Think, I think you've said this to me before.

17:19 Like, there's those kids who are cheeky, yeah, but in a really

17:23 gorgeous and beautiful way. They're not, you know, they're

17:25 not naughty because they want to be naughty.

17:28 They're just like cheeky. It's they've got a spunky

17:30 personality. And I feel like, I mean, you

17:31 look at that photo of her, which is the photo I think that

17:34 everyone thinks of all, even when you just Google her, it's

17:37 the first photo that comes up and that's her school photo in

17:39 that blue and white. Yeah, checkered school.

17:41 For us and her, the look on her face and that, I'm like, I feel

17:45 like you get a lot, you know a lot about her just from looking

17:48 at her face in that photo. Definitely.

17:50 I don't know if that's her prep or grade one photo kind of

17:52 thing, but you can just imagine, like, you know, that she is that

17:55 kid in their class that has a few of them in giggles at times.

17:58 Like, you know, and that the teacher's always constantly

18:01 telling to, you know, maybe move seats so you stop talking.

18:03 Yeah, sit up the front. Yeah, yeah.

18:07 Always get reminded by a particular student of mine who

18:09 would turn, who turned to me many years later and said to me

18:11 or she said to me at the time, she's doesn't matter where

18:13 you're going to put me. I still talk, yes.

18:18 I know that. I can see that, I can hear that.

18:22 Yeah. In 1987, Cherie's sister Crystal

18:28 was born so to the same parents, to Anthony and Kerry.

18:31 And not long after her birth, her mum and dad did sort of

18:35 split up things. I think they were very, very

18:38 young when they got together. Well, she, Kerry had Cherie at

18:41 17. Yeah.

18:42 So they were very young and their parents so.

18:45 So that yeah, because Kerry was 19 I think when they split.

18:48 So yeah, that makes sense. Yeah.

18:50 They around this time Kerry moved to Mornington with the 2

18:54 girls. So with her two year old and a

18:56 new baby. Yeah, because she had some

18:59 family support there. Yeah, but she's also got caught

19:01 up in a not quite right kind of crowd, I think in terms of where

19:05 she was heading a little bit too.

19:06 Well, that's right and around. So it wasn't very long after she

19:10 split up with Anthony that she entered into a new relationship

19:14 with a man by the name of Shane Beasley.

19:16 Yeah, I think it was one in between, but yeah.

19:18 And then Shane. Who?

19:20 I think it was very, very quick though, like still within a

19:23 month or two they were together. They were living together then

19:26 very, very quickly as well. Yeah, and Shane had a very well

19:29 known drug addiction problem. He would take Rohypnol, heroin,

19:34 which I mean, they're just, I mean, awful.

19:37 Horrible. Like Rohypnol's a date rape

19:39 drug. Yeah, I don't.

19:40 I didn't know that people took that recreationally.

19:42 Yes. I think I thought the same

19:44 thing. I thought it was really strange.

19:45 Yeah. But then I guess if you wanna

19:48 black out and just. Well, I mean.

19:50 The world. Has that sort of similar effect,

19:52 I guess in that you get a high from it, but you've it's, you

19:54 know, you're pretty much passed away.

19:56 Yeah, I believe I'm just not from experience.

19:58 Yeah, like, yeah, that I, I guess that Rohypnol maybe is

20:02 something similar, but I don't think you'd get a high from.

20:04 It I don't thought. You just got knocked down.

20:06 Don't remember what happened. Yeah.

20:07 I don't know, yeah. But yeah, so he but he OD on a

20:12 somewhat somewhat regular basis. Yeah, so much so they had Narcan

20:15 in the house. Yeah, yeah.

20:17 You know, just in case, just which I mean probably fair call

20:20 because I believe it had to be used on several occasions.

20:22 Well, they did have the, you know, ambulances arrived to do

20:25 that as well at times and. This is in front of the two

20:27 girls, too, Like it's this was something they were exposed to a

20:31 really hard life. Yeah.

20:33 Very, very early on. Yeah.

20:34 And at this time, like there were, it was so many issues that

20:38 that there were people who stepped in and that the girls

20:40 were removed at times, for certain periods of times.

20:44 They would. They did.

20:45 At one stage, Cherie was put with her paternal grandfather

20:48 Neil, and the younger sister Crystal was put with her

20:51 maternal grandmother. Marie.

20:54 Marie Yeah. So they were, they were split

20:56 up, but that's because her they they were split up themselves.

20:59 The grandparents weren't together, but so the girls were

21:01 separated into two different households, but obviously that

21:04 was still communicating with each other and still saw each

21:06 other. Yeah.

21:06 But so they were, you know, then they were taken back to mom.

21:09 And so there was a lot of disruption, I guess it within

21:12 the household in that. Respect.

21:14 So they were removed by the department of well, it's called

21:17 DHHS back then. So the Department of Health and

21:19 Human Services, Yeah. And I mean, thankfully they had

21:24 a family that member, that family members that they could

21:27 go to. Neither grandparent really felt

21:29 able to take on both girls. I mean, that is a huge

21:33 responsibility to take that on. But as you said, at least they

21:36 were still in communication. They still saw each other

21:38 regularly. So it was Kerry's parents

21:40 themselves. They were, they were very young

21:42 when they fell pregnant with Kerry.

21:44 So it's kind of this generational thing where they

21:47 had actually themselves had her very young, then split up.

21:51 And then in doing that, Kerry's grand, Kerry's grandparents

21:55 raised her, yes, which Neil particularly has spoken about

21:59 the fact that he then later had a lot of guilt around that the

22:02 two that he felt like that really did impact Kerry and then

22:06 her life choices and then ultimately potentially what

22:08 happened with Cherie. So a lot of guilt there and how

22:11 they've raised their their children and their choices.

22:13 But as young teenage parents, that's really difficult.

22:17 I believe they were only in their 30s when when Cherie was

22:22 born, her grandparents were in her 30s.

22:24 So it just goes to show how young this whole family was.

22:27 Yes. So in Neil did remarry a woman

22:31 by the name of Denise and they really did take the girls, you

22:34 know, along with Marie take the girls under their wings.

22:36 They were with them originally for about 8 months and then it

22:40 was deemed safe for them to return to Kerry's care or to

22:43 Kerry and Shane's care and. Just oh God.

22:46 This was around the time then in 1989 but another daughter was

22:51 born so this was now to parents Shane and Carrie and her name

22:57 was Jacinta and I guess they were trying to make a go of it

23:02 as a family of now five. It difficult, difficult.

23:09 Anthony's parents were still involved with the girls at this

23:13 point and I believe Anthony was as well but his parents would

23:15 take them. So take the the 2 biological

23:18 granddaughters for weekends and apparently it got to a point

23:23 where they would actually take the girls from Friday night to

23:25 Sunday night every single weekend because Kerry had a new

23:29 baby. And it was all like, I think

23:32 they could see that this wasn't the best environment for their

23:36 granddaughters necessarily. And so to ease some of that

23:39 strain and give them, you know, respite, maybe some respite, you

23:45 know, hats off to them for doing that because, you know, from all

23:48 accounts, they were very, very loving and caring grandparents.

23:52 And the fact that they were willing to do that, I think

23:54 shows, you know, shows a lot. Absolutely.

23:58 So in February of 1990, Shane Junior was born and at about and

24:06 apparently Cherie was the most doting young mother.

24:14 In many ways, Cherie was older than her six years and whether

24:18 that was, I mean, what did that due to the fact that she wasn't

24:21 mothered in that, you know, in the way she she had to step up

24:24 and do things. She would get up and make her

24:25 own breakfast. She would pack her own lunch

24:27 boxes for school, all those I. Actually, can we just talk about

24:30 that for a second? Because I find that the the

24:32 telling of that, the adulteration of a child.

24:36 Yeah, I find that really uncomfortable because I was

24:39 listening to an interview with Kerry where she talked about,

24:44 oh, but you know, she wanted to make her own lunch box and she

24:48 would make her lunch boxes. And she had to learn really

24:51 quickly that she couldn't just make all 5 lunch boxes at the

24:53 start of the week because her sandwich would be stale by the

24:55 end of the week. Like, why does a fucking 6 year

24:58 old have to learn that black that's it's too much.

25:02 You and I were talking with our friend this morning about kids

25:06 becoming too old too soon. Yeah, this is a Primo example of

25:09 that. But she obviously, as in Cherie,

25:12 obviously felt like she had to do that.

25:15 Yeah. Like, what are the six year olds

25:17 doing that? Absolutely no.

25:19 It's just she's. As you said, it is the

25:21 parentification of a young child.

25:24 Yeah, and that really does not sit comfortably with me.

25:27 No, no. So as much as you know it sounds

25:30 lovely that she really cared for her her new sibling, it's also I

25:35 think her just needing someone in the household to be

25:37 responsible and that all became almost a 5 year olds

25:40 responsibility. Yeah, so this is what actually

25:42 gets me. When Shane was 10 weeks old,

25:46 Cherie went to wake him up because it was 8:00 AM and he

25:50 normally wakes at 6:00 AM for a bottle and mum and dad were

25:54 still asleep. I mean, I get it, with a 10 week

25:57 old you're probably exhausted, but still.

26:00 It's not, it's your. Responsibility.

26:03 But anyway, Cherie's gone in to check on him and she couldn't

26:06 wake him up, so she's run into a mum and dad's.

26:08 Oh well, mum and step dad's room and raised the alarm.

26:14 And what actually eventuated was the fact that Shane had died of

26:17 SIDS Sudden Infant Death Syndrome, or what used to be

26:20 known as cot death. And Oh my God, the.

26:24 Fact that, yeah, she was the one who found him is really

26:28 distressing. I really find that, don't you?

26:30 Hear about the react, her reaction to that.

26:32 She basically, I mean, she wouldn't have at 5.

26:36 She wouldn't have had, she wouldn't have been able to

26:39 process that. But she knew it was something so

26:42 bad that she ran out of the house and was like screaming up

26:46 and down the road in the yeah, up and down the street.

26:50 Just she probably didn't know what to do.

26:53 Like she knew it was like this big overwhelming horrible thing.

26:57 But as a 5 year old, what do you do?

27:00 Oh my God, just my heart breaks for with that.

27:03 I mean, that's awful. But then to follow on from that,

27:06 within weeks of that occurring, which I don't know if this was a

27:11 good or a bad thing, that like Shane Beasley unfortunately Od'd

27:16 and he passed away. So I mean to layer that awful,

27:22 awful situation within the death of a stepparent.

27:26 Oh my God. I was living with much full time

27:29 at that. Exactly.

27:30 I mean that that she she's, she had in her very minimal amount

27:34 of time on this planet. I mean, she had been through

27:36 more than anyone should. Oh, that's.

27:38 That's just let alone a child should.

27:40 Yeah. I feel for Kerry in this, too.

27:43 I mean, she's lost a child. She's then lost her partner.

27:46 Yeah, whether or not that relationship was good or bad is

27:49 kind of irrelevant because just having that loss and that trauma

27:54 in your life, Yeah. Just awful.

27:58 Kerry did move on pretty pretty quickly though.

28:01 She met a man by the name of Steve Ludlow.

28:04 Yeah, in mid 1990s. So he died in Feb.

28:08 Yeah, of 1990, as in Shane died in Feb.

28:13 She was then living with Steve by mid 1990.

28:17 Yeah, and they actually decided to all move to a house in

28:21 Rosebud together. Which I think is where his

28:23 parents lived as well in the area.

28:24 So they then had, yeah. Some.

28:26 Some family in law to a close by to just to help out and stuff

28:31 too. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

28:32 So that kind of brings us to how the family came to be in

28:36 Rosebud. Yeah.

28:37 So Cherie moved to Rose or started at Rosebud Primary

28:41 School then? Yeah, so I think she actually

28:43 did a prep year at a different school, I think Morning Summer

28:46 in Mornington. Yeah.

28:47 And then Rosebud, she moved here for Grade 1, so.

28:49 Yeah. So she'd been there for six

28:51 months. Yeah.

28:52 Yeah. At the time, yeah.

28:54 OK. Yeah.

28:57 All right. We'll leave Cherie's story there

29:00 for now. We're now going to talk about

29:02 the man who murdered her, and we'll get to the way that came

29:06 about in a minute. But we'll go into some of his

29:08 back story because I found research is so fascinating.

29:12 So, so fascinating. Yeah.

29:14 So she was, well, kidnapped, raped and murdered by a man by

29:20 the name of Robert Arthur Selby Lowe.

29:24 And as we said before, not that Rob Lowe.

29:27 At all. Oh my God.

29:28 Speaking of swoony, Oh my God. Saint Elmo's.

29:32 Fire. Oh yeah.

29:36 But yeah, this guy is no Rob Lowe.

29:39 Oh God no, he's the biggest. That's why I he's going to be

29:42 Robert Lowe during talking about this.

29:44 Oh yeah. Robert Lowe, Yeah, Yeah, Robert

29:46 Lowe. There is no mistake in him for.

29:48 No, Lowe suits him. Low, low, low.

29:52 As low as they go. Yeah, as low as they go.

29:56 Robert Lowe was born in England to in the 191937 he was born he

30:02 was the middle child to a fairly well to do wealthy family.

30:07 Very much so. Yes.

30:08 So the reason he has the name Selby in his name is due to his

30:12 mother. His mother's maiden name was

30:14 Selby. And that's kind of where the not

30:18 all, but a fairly good portion of the wealth etcetera comes

30:22 from the connections, probably more so than even the money side

30:25 of it. Yeah, there's.

30:27 So with the Selby name comes lots and lots of high level

30:32 interesting people. So and when one of these in

30:35 particular people that stands out that what comes along was

30:38 there was who was named as Robert's godfather, who and I

30:44 got his name written down somewhere, but he was, he ended

30:48 up being sorry, he was Uncle Ronnie.

30:49 He was known as Ronnie Selby, right?

30:52 He was a clergyman. He'd been in the war and I think

30:55 he's been two wars. But he.

30:56 Yeah, he served into. Both world wars, so he he, but

31:00 he did eventually become then the chaplain to the Queen of

31:04 England. So I mean pretty connected and

31:07 you know. Up there and very well respected

31:10 family. Yeah, certainly.

31:12 However, there was, I know I've look, I don't, I don't.

31:15 I couldn't find actual evidence of this, but there's been talk

31:17 of potentially this man may have not done the right thing.

31:21 No, So you're right, there is nothing out there to say.

31:24 And I think he, I think people would want or wanted Robert to

31:35 maybe confess or, or or give reason or, I don't know, just

31:41 tell his story. They were hoping he would do

31:43 that before he lost, before he died, and that this would all

31:47 come out. But it didn't.

31:49 No, the inference is that Uncle Ronnie molested him.

31:54 Yeah. From when he was a very young

31:56 child. He, by all accounts, Uncle

31:59 Ronnie did take a particular shining to Robert in particular.

32:03 So as you said, Robert was the middle of three brothers.

32:05 There was Graham, then Robert, then Rick.

32:09 And Graham was an incredibly accomplished person.

32:13 Yeah. And is to this day, yeah, I

32:15 actually don't know if he's. No, he's he's not alive anymore.

32:17 No, he died in back. In fact, they all died.

32:20 All three brothers died within a fairly short space of each.

32:24 Other I knew Rick and Robert died in the same year.

32:27 Yeah, well, then I think only weeks after, sorry, Graham died,

32:32 maybe weeks after Robert. Like it was that, Yeah.

32:35 OK, but he was, he was like the golden haired child.

32:38 He could do no wrong. He was very sporty.

32:40 He was incredibly academic, he was very handsome.

32:45 Everyone liked him, everyone wanted to be him, wanted to be

32:48 friends with him and he really used the connections of his

32:51 family to to go all the way. You know, he really took

32:55 advantage of that because not only was the mum part of this

32:59 sort of Selby family, which is obviously very, very well

33:01 regarded in Britain, but the dad, whose name was Eric, he was

33:10 also, he, his family owned a department store and so they

33:14 were very wealthy. So his side of things brought a

33:17 lot of wealth to this family unit.

33:20 So they were very well to do and wanted for nothing.

33:25 It it's very interesting. I think their mum was a very

33:30 interesting. Person.

33:31 Yes, very interesting. My dad, Eric went to, went to

33:38 war and he was like a, oh, what was he in the war?

33:44 He held some kind of officer kind of position.

33:46 I think he was quite high up in. Yeah, again, his connections and

33:50 things like that. Yeah, that's it.

33:51 Yeah, that's it. Yeah, but mom sent the boys all

33:54 off to boarding school at about 8 years of age.

33:56 Oh, no. Younger.

33:57 Younger, Yeah, younger. Yeah, OK.

34:00 So she sent them off Young. What?

34:03 OK, I'm just gonna say what everyone thinks happens.

34:06 He she has met this bloke who's a doctor.

34:10 Yep. While Eric's off at war.

34:15 It was fairly well known that she was having this affair

34:18 whilst he was off at war. Yep, although she denied it.

34:21 Yeah, but it can. And then can.

34:22 I mean, people know and so they were carrying on and he was like

34:26 the surgeon general of. He was, he was, he was like the

34:29 police. Doctor, that's it, Yes.

34:31 Like, yes, he was like, so that's why he didn't have to go

34:33 off to war. Yeah.

34:35 So they're back here having, you know, friendly, fun times.

34:38 And Eric comes back from war. Yeah.

34:42 And literally was it like 2 weeks later he dies under very

34:47 suspicious circumstances. Supposedly as from a brain

34:50 tumour. Well, that was what was.

34:52 That was what was on the death certificate, which.

34:54 Was his guest death? Certificate.

34:56 Bye. Yeah.

34:57 So the her her lover was the doctor that did like the autopsy

35:01 and signed off on the death certificate.

35:04 There's an inference here that potentially he she offed him.

35:09 Oh, they offed him like, you know, and that they were both in

35:11 this. And then so with that

35:14 information, so at 8 years of age, there's Paul.

35:18 At this point, I would say Paul, Paul Robert off at boarding

35:22 school at the age of 8, who's so he's in class and he gets called

35:26 into the principal's office. Mind you, this principal had

35:28 also been diddling with him as well, which just holy crap.

35:32 I mean, it goes into that whole boarding school anyway.

35:36 Yuck yuck kids. So the 8 year old gets brought

35:39 into the office with the principal who says to him so

35:43 your father has just died, take your moment and go off.

35:46 You go back to class, I mean, could you get more British, you

35:50 know, like a could you get? More fucked up, like, I mean,

35:53 you know what? You know what that actually

35:55 reminds me of? Have you like, have you read

35:59 Harry, Prince Harry's memoir? I haven't OK, he talks about the

36:05 moment that he got told that Diana had died, right?

36:09 And like, OK, Prince Charles at the time, he came into their

36:13 room and told them. But then they were kind of like

36:17 left to their left to themselves.

36:21 And I'm like, fuck me. That would be the most horrific.

36:25 And as a child, like, I just oh, my God, you know, no, how do you

36:31 even process that? Let alone him, him, them being

36:33 told, OK, you need to go back to class now.

36:35 Like it like it was nothing like you.

36:37 I don't know. This poor 8 year old, he's

36:39 finally got his dad, dad back from war and then he's dead.

36:43 Like you're supposed to, I don't know, like, oh God.

36:46 But so yeah, he's gone back to class after hearing this and

36:49 he's been told to carry on. But this information around his

36:52 dad, his dad's death and the fact that potentially his mum

36:56 and partner had something to do with it was a little bit under

37:00 the. It was, it was around, it was no

37:01 known kind of thing that this apparently really ate away at

37:05 him that he, he became very, very distrusting of police

37:12 because he believed they were also involved in this cover up.

37:15 Which we, yeah, to a point where he actually ran over a police

37:21 officer at one stage when he was in his early teens.

37:24 So these this became a behaviour issue then from this point on,

37:27 from when he found when this developed and yeah, he was quite

37:30 the troubled teen and he ran over a police officer which he

37:33 kind of dodged then because of his connections of getting any

37:37 conviction, that was all that stopped him.

37:39 From six months of community service.

37:41 It was something wasn't it wasn't community service.

37:43 What did he get? Oh my God.

37:46 There was there was very minor consequence.

37:49 Minor. Minor though it.

37:50 Was part of his. Yeah, part of it.

37:52 There was a deal of what he had to do.

37:53 Yeah. Oh my God, where did I write

37:56 that down? Sorry, I didn't mean to attract.

37:58 Your train of thought, No, no. But, yeah, So I, I just feel

38:01 like all of that unresolved trauma of this kid, like, OK, I,

38:06 I, I get that, you know, his brothers experienced the same

38:09 trauma. They didn't then go on to

38:12 perpetrate anything quite like he did.

38:15 But you've just got to think like this was that this was that

38:18 event that started this whole thing in motion, really.

38:22 Oh. Yeah, I mean, not only that, his

38:24 sexual assaults as well, like. This is the he had.

38:27 So much trauma in his childhood that was completely unresolved.

38:31 Yeah. Never dealt with.

38:32 He never got help for any of it. And, and we will be discussing

38:36 soon what ended up coming of it. And it's, I mean, I feel like

38:40 there's a systemic failure here. These people don't come from

38:43 nowhere. I guess what you know, like

38:44 they're not just, you know, born to become this, be this and

38:48 they, you know, are on this planet.

38:49 There is there are things that happen to these people that

38:51 create them. I guess what we're trying to say

38:54 is there's ways of stopping these people to become like

38:56 this. I guess like we as a society

38:59 have, you know, some there's things that are to be answered

39:03 in terms of stepping into these and stopping it from work before

39:05 it gets to a point of where a child is being murdered.

39:08 Yeah, but he did what he did and he's.

39:11 Yeah, also a fucking piece of shit.

39:13 Absolutely. But yeah, there's been other

39:15 pieces of shit in his life, yeah as well.

39:17 Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

39:19 There was definitely consequences to that that, but I

39:22 cannot think. Anyway, it's fine.

39:24 If we come across it, we'll come back.

39:25 To yeah, yeah, yeah. Look, it wasn't.

39:27 It wasn't in any way measurable to the crime.

39:31 Like, he definitely got off easy.

39:32 Yes, they basically then decided as a family, I think it was

39:36 because, I mean, there was definitely suspicion that, you

39:40 know, some shady shit had gone down here.

39:43 And as a family, they decided to move to New Zealand.

39:46 Yeah. Well, he'd already been in

39:48 trouble obviously with the law in terms of that of what we were

39:51 just discussed. But also there already started

39:53 being some other incidences of him flashing himself at people.

39:58 So I think to. Yeah, that.

39:59 Was when he was at boarding school I believe.

40:01 Yeah, it started pretty young, Yeah, yeah.

40:03 But there was all sorts of behaviours from him that were

40:05 escalating already, like, yeah. So they were they.

40:09 The idea was to move to New Zealand.

40:10 I think to really like go right, Let's separate ourselves from

40:12 what's going on here. I think it's more the mum and

40:15 now new stepdad that was like, fuck, well, everyone thinks we

40:19 killed this guy, so let's get the fuck out of here when no one

40:23 knows us. Yeah.

40:24 And, you know, he thinks that we're all just one big happy

40:27 family. Although so they did move to

40:29 Wellington in New Zealand and the.

40:32 What's the surgeon bloke's name? I.

40:33 Currently. Oh, I didn't actually read it.

40:35 He bought a practice in Wellington and established AGP

40:40 type practice there and when they moved over, Robert actually

40:46 moved into a boarding house in Wellington, so still close to

40:50 his mum and dad, Mum and stepdad, but didn't live with

40:53 them. Now he started to get into a

40:57 fuck load of trouble pretty much from as soon as they landed

40:59 there. Yeah.

41:00 He would loiter around the women's toilets.

41:03 Yeah, and toilet blocks. He would expose himself, fondle

41:07 himself in front of women. He would just look at them and

41:10 put his hands down his pants and have a people.

41:13 Play around consistently being pulled into police stations and

41:16 being questioned over things and interviewed.

41:18 And he was convicted in 90. Sorry, not in 1961 and again in

41:25 1964. Yeah, he was.

41:27 Yeah, for various things, but I mean in between.

41:30 Those decent exposure. So he then he progressed from

41:33 sort of fondling himself to then exposing himself to, yeah, women

41:37 and actually to boys too. Yes, it wasn't just women and

41:41 young girls, it was actually to boys as well.

41:44 He. He's had six months in jail from

41:47 about six months 22. So like, that obviously didn't

41:50 deter him because like a couple of years later, he's back

41:53 convicted of doing the exact same thing.

41:55 Yeah, He also got into a bit of petty theft around that time as

41:58 well. So he was starting to steal

42:00 things and just a real fucking degenerate.

42:02 Yeah, and lying. His lying was getting really out

42:05 of hand. Yeah, he was embarrassing the

42:08 family because, I mean, you know, the stepdad is this now

42:12 prominent GP in the area. Yeah.

42:14 And owned the medical practice. It was, you know, a fairly small

42:17 community and it got out obviously that he was convicted

42:21 and all this stuff. So they actually shipped him off

42:23 to Melbourne in 1967. Yeah.

42:26 They didn't want to borrow of it many more.

42:27 They just wanted him to fuck off and get away.

42:29 Yeah. And so he lived again.

42:31 He came to Melbourne, lived in boarding houses.

42:34 He lived like a bit of a like a semi pneumatic kind of

42:37 lifestyle. He really didn't have a base and

42:42 he was just a weird fucking bloke.

42:45 But he also around, well, I think religion was always in the

42:50 background of their lives, given the connection with the mom.

42:52 Yeah, but once he moved to Melbourne, he really started to

42:56 get back into his religion and he around this time he met.

43:04 So he decided to join a church and he went and I believe the

43:09 day that he joined this church was Christmas Day.

43:11 Is that right? Or the first, the first thing he

43:13 went to was on Christmas Day, this church and at at this

43:17 function he met his then well soon to be wife.

43:22 Yeah. She was a young, what was her

43:24 name? Jennifer.

43:25 Lorraine. Lorraine.

43:26 Oh my. God, where did I get Jennifer

43:27 from? I just had a total mental blank.

43:30 Then he met Lorraine. Now, Lorraine was a very naive

43:36 naive. She doesn't even cover it.

43:38 Yeah. She, she admits, fully admits

43:40 herself, she LED an incredibly sheltered life.

43:43 Yeah, she so much so that she was in a very devout sect of

43:48 this Christian. Exclusive Brethren.

43:51 Brethren. Yeah, and so much so that her

43:53 parents would not even let them have the blinds to the front of

43:57 their house open, ever, because that was too worldly.

44:00 Too much of the. You could.

44:01 You couldn't. Actually.

44:03 That was too much. You couldn't see other people,

44:06 they didn't watch TV, they had no exposure to the outside

44:09 world. It was very.

44:11 Amish. Almost.

44:12 Yes, I think style describes it like that.

44:14 Yeah, it's very, very old and daytime like kind of you keep to

44:18 yourself. You don't go out into the world

44:19 like it's Yeah, they were very much, they taught, had their

44:22 their teachings. There's nothing outside of that.

44:25 Yeah. All of their education was done

44:26 within this. Yeah sect.

44:28 Yeah. And so.

44:30 Yeah. So she, she fully admits that

44:32 she was very naive. Yeah.

44:34 And. But well, they met when she was

44:37 I think. 3232, yeah. He was 35.

44:40 Yeah. And so she wasn't young in in

44:42 this, in that world of, you know, in that time of sort of,

44:45 you know, meeting someone, getting married.

44:46 That actually makes me think like, was she really desperate

44:49 and. Was she literally it had gone to

44:52 church that day and had prayed to meet the man of her dreams to

44:56 just she just wanted to get married.

44:58 That's that's all she wanted in life was just have that and have

45:03 children. And you know, so she literally

45:05 that day, I believe, or the following day after, you know,

45:08 put doing that prayer, then met him, met unfortunately, Robert

45:14 met Robert. And yeah.

45:16 So she basically believed that this was God sending him to her.

45:21 Yeah. And that he was the answer to.

45:23 Couple of things there. I feel like at 32, given where

45:27 they were at. Yeah, as in in this sect.

45:31 And probably most of her friends got married before they were 18.

45:36 She probably would have prayed for that every day for years and

45:39 years and just this happened to have come and oh, my God, my

45:42 prayers have been answered. OK.

45:44 Yeah. I mean, that just goes to show

45:45 my stance on this stuff, but. But I think, I think that goes

45:52 to show her mindset at the time. She fully, she fully surrendered

45:56 to that. Yeah.

45:57 And the fact that God had given her this man.

45:59 Yeah. Who is.

46:00 And now, from everyone's account of him at the time, he was nice,

46:05 Yeah. He was friendly.

46:07 He did have an an outward appearance of somewhat normal

46:10 person, you know. Yeah.

46:11 He could control himself to that level.

46:14 Yeah. To be, to keep himself together.

46:15 I mean, he held down a job at, you know, we would change jobs

46:19 regularly for, for various reasons that we can get to.

46:22 But yeah, he held a decent job and all those sorts of things.

46:26 So he's described he'd always get another job easily.

46:28 Yeah, yeah. I feel like in his line of work

46:31 as well. So he ended up getting job as

46:33 like a travelling salesman. And he was bloody good at it,

46:35 apparently. Apparently so, because he was

46:38 able to perpetrate all these crimes and also be very

46:40 successful at his job all at the same time.

46:42 So yes, I think you're right. He.

46:44 Knock on less doors than you know the other bloke to to earn

46:48 as much money sort of stuff. He he was good at it.

46:50 He had the gift of the gab and could.

46:53 Yeah. Manipulate people, I think.

46:55 Yeah. And talk his way into being, you

46:57 know, quite a nice person. Yeah.

46:59 Make them believe that anyway. Yeah.

47:01 Because he was. Because people described him as

47:02 mild mannered and then, yeah, you look at what comes after and

47:06 you think, fucking hell no, it was definitely a facade.

47:09 Yeah, yeah, well, and apparently too.

47:12 So they got married in 1972, but just prior to them becoming

47:16 engaged, he actually broke it off with Lorraine.

47:20 So I, I feel like he was not really into this, but knew that

47:24 society kind of, this is what you need to do.

47:28 So Lorraine was devastated that they were, they were breaking up

47:31 because I think she had put all of her, you know, eggs in one

47:33 basket here of like, you know, that this is the man that I'm

47:35 going to marry now because I've met him and this is how it's got

47:37 to be. So she was pretty, pretty

47:39 devastated when he called it off and was, you know, why would you

47:42 do that? And they ended up getting back

47:43 together. And I believe like within a

47:45 month of that, they were then engaged.

47:47 So I mean, kind of wonder what was going through his head.

47:50 Well, I think he needed a beard. Essentially, he needed.

47:53 Something he worked out. That OK behind or a marriage in

47:57 a what would then become a a family yes to hide behind so

48:01 that he could continue acting on yeah all of.

48:05 The things he was acting because unbeknownst to Lorraine this

48:07 whole time, whilst they're dating and everything, all these

48:09 things he's continuously being pulled into to police stations

48:13 and being interviewed. So and he's spending a

48:15 considerable amount of his time, as you said, like he's, he's

48:18 meant to be out doing the sales job.

48:21 Not only is he finding them time to do these acts, but he's also

48:26 going to court, going to police interviews regularly.

48:29 Like he he he was fitting, fitting all of that into his

48:32 time. Lorraine didn't know that that

48:35 was going on. And I do believe that.

48:37 I think he kept it from her entirely.

48:38 Yeah. He was that good at this.

48:40 And she was that naive that it could be done.

48:43 Yeah, she had. She didn't realise any of this

48:46 was going on at that point. Not at that point.

48:48 So the things that he was doing that were getting in, pulled in

48:50 was more of this. He would hang around schools and

48:53 expose himself to students at school gates.

48:55 Yeah, that was sort of further like as his behavior was

48:59 escalated. There's one where it was

49:00 explained that there was 2 girls, I think that they'd gone

49:03 to the police on this and they were going to charge him.

49:06 And so the way and they ended up not dropping the charges because

49:10 what he'd said to the police said, oh, this is a completely

49:13 like, you know, it's just, Oh, no, no, it was just a joke.

49:16 It didn't actually happen like the girls say it did.

49:19 I had a banana and I was I was being funny with the banana,

49:22 right. He's being funny with the banana

49:27 was that he had it down his speedos, walking around a beach,

49:32 walking around and asking people to touch the banana in his

49:35 speedos. Well, that's a sexual assault.

49:38 The So the. Yeah.

49:39 So the police misunderstood his statement of saying this is

49:42 where he used his lie. He lied without lying.

49:44 Yeah. As in he was telling his truth.

49:46 Oh. But oh, no, I was just making a

49:48 joke with a banana. And it's been taken out of,

49:51 like, the wrong way by the girls.

49:53 And I apologise for that, but that's not actually what was

49:56 happening. So the cops have gone.

49:58 Oh, sorry, mate. We'll drop this, you know.

50:01 Maybe don't put a banana, man. Yeah.

50:03 Well, he never said yeah. I put the banana down my pants.

50:06 The girls, what they saw was a man with a banana down his

50:09 bloody speedos going touch my banana.

50:12 Oh. What a fucking disgusting piece.

50:15 Gross. Absolutely gross.

50:18 Yeah, God. So should we maybe enter here

50:21 and say like with all these convict or not necessary

50:24 convictions even, but with all this going on that he was going

50:26 to court and defending these things, part of that court

50:29 process, the courts insisted that he would need like reports

50:33 done on him, like psychological assessments and things.

50:36 So he was sent off to a psycho psychotherapist to have, well

50:41 for every initially a report done for the court.

50:44 And the person that he was sent off to was this Margaret Hobbs.

50:47 So Margaret Hobbs was a, she originally started out as a

50:51 parole officer and probation officer and then moved into

50:54 private practice and around the courts.

50:57 She actually was known as the Queen of the Flashes.

51:00 Yeah, because that's what she did.

51:01 That's what she did was that she did these reports on these, you

51:04 know, rapists, flashes, exhibitionists, you know.

51:07 Yeah, that was her. That was her specialty.

51:09 Yeah. So, yeah, they they kind of, you

51:12 know, joked around about it in the courts of like, that's who

51:14 she was. But, you know, it is what she

51:16 would do. But I mean, God, I mean, what a

51:18 heavy, you know, stuff to get into with, with people.

51:22 So she would literally do these reports for the courts and also

51:26 do sessions with perpetrators. So she was very highly

51:29 experienced in this. She.

51:30 Was very experienced but she had no formal qualifications.

51:33 What? Yep, I did not know that she.

51:36 Didn't have formal qualifications.

51:38 I just assumed she, well, she's a psychologist.

51:39 She said I've done AI don't agree.

51:41 I don't think so. Everywhere I just read that she

51:44 was a psychologist. I never looked up.

51:46 She's a psychotherapist, which isn't a psychologist.

51:50 You're right, I did read psychotherapist and I just

51:52 continuously assumed that I never looked up her credentials

51:55 because she was just. Very, very experienced, yeah.

51:58 And she was very good at what she did.

52:00 Yeah. And she was able to rehabilitate

52:03 a lot of flashes. And she was.

52:06 Can they be? Can they really be?

52:07 I don't know, but the way whatever her methodology was

52:11 like, in the eyes of the court, it worked.

52:13 Oh look, the reports I've read of hers, like I think she was

52:17 very good at what she did in her analysis of things and she read

52:21 this guy spot on. Oh yeah.

52:23 Like she was a very intuitive person.

52:25 Wow. OK, I.

52:26 Did not know she didn't have the formal qualifications.

52:29 Wow. OK, that's interesting.

52:32 Yeah. So she was known by this sort of

52:35 term in the courts that he. He went along for his report.

52:38 She wrote a report, went to the court, whatever.

52:40 And the court came back and said, well, we think you should

52:42 have ongoing sessions after this.

52:44 And so that's all he kind of got from that.

52:46 He got no conviction. It was just, yeah, you should

52:48 have further therapy. So he started seeing her

52:50 regularly from the get go. Margaret did not like Arthur.

52:57 Arthur. I'm Robert.

52:57 He he just creeped her out. Yeah, she.

53:01 Like she mentioned. So she wrote most of a book

53:05 about this. Yeah.

53:06 And about meeting Robert, you know, in her practice and all of

53:12 that and everything that came after it.

53:14 Yeah. And she mentions in that book

53:16 that even though the types of men that she was dealing with,

53:20 they were bad, they were not nice people, generally speaking,

53:23 she was always able to find something about them that sort

53:26 of endeared them to her and that she liked.

53:29 Yeah. Yeah.

53:30 She'd never found that with Robert.

53:31 No, no. So, you know, she was a very

53:35 obviously very open to finding it if it was there.

53:38 Yeah. Find it with him.

53:39 But he was very honest with her. He wasn't he.

53:42 She had to ask the right questions.

53:45 He then told her he never told anyone.

53:48 No, but she had to. She had to find ways to do it.

53:52 Yeah. Yeah, she was.

53:52 Very. She was clever enough.

53:53 She. Was very clever to do that she'd

53:55 word things very carefully and she would ask a question and go

53:57 and get an answer and go oh don't trust his answer and then

54:01 would come at it from very varying different angles to

54:04 actually get to the right the. True.

54:05 Bottom of it, like, yeah, yeah. Oh, God, like, for example, like

54:09 I think with this situation, she said, like, do you have a blue

54:12 car? And he said no, no.

54:14 He. Didn't have a blue car.

54:16 She said to him, Do you own a blue car?

54:19 Yeah, yeah. And he said no.

54:21 So then she said to him, do you drive a blue car?

54:24 Oh, yes, yeah. My from my, my job, I have AI

54:27 use the boss's car sometimes and it happens to be a blue car.

54:30 Yeah, yeah. So that that's just what how she

54:32 worked out that she'd need to ask from another angle.

54:35 Yeah, yeah, I know, I know. It's such a.

54:39 Piece and in his mind, I never lied to you, you just didn't.

54:41 That's right, asked me the wrong question.

54:43 Well, he didn't lie. I guess he didn't own a blue

54:45 car. Yeah, no.

54:48 Oh my God, yes. So shall we go back now to poor

54:53 Cherie? Yeah.

54:54 We covered all we need to there. Yeah, OK.

54:56 Yeah. Yep.

54:58 So on the day of Cherie's disappearance, I suppose.

55:02 Yeah, Cherie. Look, I think it's probably also

55:05 worth saying Cherie was given a lot, a lot of independence.

55:09 As we were sort of saying that she was old, yeah, she was very

55:12 independent. Very, very independent.

55:14 Yeah. And she had a pink bike and a

55:17 pink bike helmet. And she would ride around the

55:20 streets of Rosebud with literally no, no tether.

55:26 You know, she would go on her own quite often.

55:29 One of her teachers remarked. One day she saw Cherie up at the

55:32 school after after hours. It was actually getting dark.

55:35 And her teacher said to her, you need to go home.

55:37 It's nearly dark. This is dangerous.

55:39 You can't be here. Yeah.

55:40 And she's like, oh, no, my mom doesn't mind.

55:42 She just lets me be out until I need to be out.

55:45 And the teacher was like, no, no, you need to go home.

55:47 This is really unsafe. You have to go home now.

55:49 Yeah. You know, So there wasn't a lot

55:51 of checks and balances there going on for Cherie.

55:54 She. She certainly did her own thing

55:56 on this particular day. I think she was quite bored.

55:59 And so she was looking for things to do.

56:02 She'd gone for a bike ride up to at the local mini golf to see if

56:06 it was open because she wanted to have a quick round of mini

56:08 golf. Can you ever imagine a six year

56:10 old doing that? Like just go, I'll get on my

56:12 bike off my go, go and play mini golf and then I'll, I don't

56:15 know. What I think this is also says

56:17 speaks to how well she was known around the neighborhood though

56:19 for this, because I, I can't imagine a six year old coming up

56:22 to the counter and saying one please.

56:24 Yeah. And like, and then just going,

56:26 Oh yeah, sure. Like to me you'd go, where's

56:29 your mum and dad? Like, you know.

56:30 Apparently she was known to everyone as the, the, the kid on

56:34 the pink bike. She was out and people did kind

56:37 of keep an eye out for her because I think they knew that

56:40 she wasn't necessarily always being watched by a parental

56:43 figure. Yeah.

56:44 So anyway, she's, you know, gone to the golf, mini golf.

56:49 It's shot. She's gone back home.

56:51 She's gotten a bit bored and restless there.

56:53 She's gone for a bike ride. She's come back home.

56:56 And then her mum says to her, can you go down to the milk bar?

56:59 So like the local corner store And by me.

57:02 I've written down what she asked for because it actually reminded

57:05 me of my childhood. Yeah, it was a a pasty and milk,

57:10 I think, and something else. Something else and then a packet

57:14 of cigarettes. Yeah, now I've got a very good

57:17 story about this. Just a personal anecdote.

57:20 When we were kids, my mum used to pull up.

57:22 My mum and dad smoked when we were younger and we used mum

57:26 would pull up to the milk bar give us however much a packet of

57:29 cigarettes cost in the 80s. 05 bucks if that now and 30.

57:33 She'd be like, can you go in and get me a packet of the PJ super

57:38 mild, the Peter Jackson Super Mild.

57:41 If they if they ask anything just tell them I'll wave.

57:44 So yeah. So we'd go in and be like, oh,

57:46 can we please have a packet of the Peter Jackson Super Mild?

57:50 And they'd be like, yeah, where's your mum?

57:52 Oh, she's out in the car over there, mum.

57:55 And waves. And that's just waves they.

57:56 Would sell us the. Cigarettes.

57:58 Oh my God. Well, that's crazy.

58:01 You just like. That never happened.

58:05 I mean, not many people smoke these days, or not many people

58:08 in my In fact, I don't actually know anyone who smokes.

58:10 I know some people who vape. Yeah, vaping is grossed.

58:13 Yeah, totally. So anyway, so yes, I can totally

58:17 imagine this would happen that yeah, I mean Cherie and I were

58:19 born in the same year her mum and my mum wanted us to grab her

58:23 some cigarettes so sent her down the milk bar to do that errand.

58:27 And Kerry says she just wishes she had of known that that was

58:31 the last time she was going to see Cherie.

58:33 Because what we know happened is Sheree's ridden her bike or not

58:38 quite gotten to the Milk Bar. So the next thing we sort of

58:41 know in all of this is that her bike's out the front or not far

58:45 from the Milk Bar. It's actually near a phone box

58:48 and Sheree's nowhere to be found.

58:51 Now, a neighbor who used to keep a pretty keen eye on Sheree

58:57 recognized that her bike was there and that Cherie wasn't,

59:02 and that was really unusual. And so she actually went and

59:05 knocked on Kerry's door and was like, I've just seen Cherie's

59:08 bike. I can't see her anywhere around,

59:10 you know, You know, it really raised alarm bells with her.

59:13 And then Kerry immediately called the police.

59:15 She's like, that's not right. I've sent her.

59:17 She should have been back because I think Kerry had

59:19 actually said to Steven. He went out and looked.

59:22 Yeah, because she wasn't back in the 15 minutes they thought

59:25 she'd be back in, or 10 minutes they thought she'd be back in

59:28 and so she was starting to get worried.

59:30 Then obviously this neighbor has found the bike, gone to her, and

59:33 then Kerry's called the police, right?

59:36 So. So in that so the police when

59:40 they arrive on the scene and they they knew a little bit

59:43 about this family. Well, they.

59:44 'D been. They'd been, they'd been.

59:46 They were known to the police. Yeah, so they made it like has

59:50 something, you know, to test out the family to see if they knew

59:55 something more than they were letting on, like so because

59:58 obviously when children go missing.

1:00:00 First thought is maybe someone known to her.

1:00:04 Yeah. So to test this out, the police

1:00:06 actually on that first day, they actually put a little bug in the

1:00:08 house and they left them with a form to fill out and said to

1:00:13 them, oh, there's a compensation for crime form to fill out, see

1:00:17 you later. And I've left and look the part.

1:00:21 The family passed with flying colours in terms of whether they

1:00:24 had any involvement because they were furious with the police for

1:00:28 doing this and not knowing what they had done entirely.

1:00:31 But saying like they they are on this recording of just saying

1:00:34 how dare they like, you know, give us this form to that we

1:00:36 don't want money, we want we want her.

1:00:38 Why are they not looking for her?

1:00:40 Yeah, why they've gone to this, Why would they give us this?

1:00:42 Like, you know, so exactly how they should have responded to

1:00:44 that form and they had how the police, you know, we expect

1:00:46 someone to yeah, in that moment. So they they had done an asshole

1:00:49 act, but no. Well, they they needed, I guess

1:00:52 they needed to wait to eliminate.

1:00:53 Eliminate so that eliminated they knew they weren't looking

1:00:56 at anyone internally to The Who had been at the house that day

1:00:59 of doing something wrong. So that was that they they knew

1:01:02 immediately then they were really looking for a missing

1:01:05 child. I think they also very around

1:01:07 that like very early on, I'm talking in the first hour hours

1:01:11 of being notified, they also looked to her birth father and

1:01:14 the birth father's family and they were very quickly alibi and

1:01:17 completely eliminated like they know that they were not.

1:01:20 Suspects at all? Yeah.

1:01:22 Yeah. So that was that was they were

1:01:23 very good at, I think as much as it sounds like an asshole thing

1:01:26 to do, as I say, but like it eliminated all those family

1:01:29 people so they could actually concentrate on the real crime at

1:01:31 hand. So I do think that that was OK

1:01:34 to do that as much as it would have been hurtful.

1:01:37 Yeah. So they've got onto this very

1:01:39 quickly. So obviously get out, got out to

1:01:40 media as well very quickly that this little girl was missing.

1:01:44 So. Oh God, I.

1:01:46 Think it went on the news that night.

1:01:47 So she went missing somewhere around 1:40 PM Yeah.

1:01:50 And it was on the 5:00 news that night.

1:01:53 They were, they put like a just a little bulletin out.

1:01:55 Yeah. By the next day they actually

1:01:57 had Kerry basically making a plea on live on the news.

1:02:03 Yeah. For any information, anybody

1:02:05 who's got who's got Cherie to please just keep her safe and

1:02:10 just drop her at the nearest police station.

1:02:12 Your questions will be asked. Sort of things.

1:02:14 Yeah. Yeah.

1:02:16 That look, the police acted very, very swiftly, did all of

1:02:20 the right things very early on. Although there was 1 little bit

1:02:23 of information that was miscommunicated somewhere along

1:02:26 the line because it did stop people from coming forward

1:02:29 sooner. Unfortunately there was a

1:02:31 miscommunication of the helmet. So people the way that it was

1:02:36 portrayed on the media was as if her bike and her helmet had been

1:02:40 found together and to the side of the road.

1:02:44 So therefore some people who actually did say something saw a

1:02:48 child who looked distressed in a car, in a blue car, but the

1:02:52 child was wearing a pink helmet. So they sort of put it to the

1:02:56 side, which I don't think I would have.

1:02:57 I think I would have said something.

1:02:58 But no, they they were like, oh, no, it can't be her because her,

1:03:02 her helmet was already found. So.

1:03:03 This actually gets as well these people get me because.

1:03:07 So they say. So this was the mum and

1:03:10 daughter, wasn't it? And the daughter was playing out

1:03:12 the front with some friends and they saw her.

1:03:14 So this was Sue Marks was the mum's name.

1:03:17 Yeah. And Danielle was the daughter's

1:03:20 name. She, what she says is that she

1:03:24 saw, well, what we now know was Cherie in the car, distressed.

1:03:28 Her face was up against the window.

1:03:29 It looked like she was kneeling in the front seat.

1:03:31 Yeah, distraught. And when she saw Sue, she

1:03:35 actually said help. Help.

1:03:38 Yeah. And Sue didn't.

1:03:40 They didn't call the police. Well, she, yeah, she basically

1:03:42 thought, oh, I think she's in the car with like a grandfather

1:03:45 now. We've all been there, like with

1:03:46 a kid who's, you know, cracked it for whatever reason.

1:03:49 I'm like. I put myself in her shoes.

1:03:53 Especially then when something came on the news that night of a

1:03:56 little girl who was riding a bike.

1:03:58 Yep. And this.

1:03:59 And what little girl wears a helmet while she's in the car?

1:04:02 Exactly. I just.

1:04:03 I think enough of it would have come together to go.

1:04:05 Oh, I have to say something. Yeah.

1:04:06 I'd rather be wrong. Yep.

1:04:08 I'd rather be wrong. Yep.

1:04:10 Oh, yeah. I do find that interesting.

1:04:12 And then also like I feel like I would take down the number plate

1:04:15 if I saw yeah, I'd take no, I'd take the mental mode down or the

1:04:18 type, the make and model of the car, something because that to

1:04:23 me that seems so SUS. Yes.

1:04:26 And if you see something, say something.

1:04:27 You'll see that get yeah, 'cause she's.

1:04:28 They're not the only one. There was another witness that

1:04:30 came forward. He was a young boy though.

1:04:33 The other. Witness No, There was a woman

1:04:34 who came forward as well. Oh what?

1:04:36 What was her account? So she didn't come forward until

1:04:39 1993. Oh, God, yeah.

1:04:42 And the way she came forward was that she was just happened to be

1:04:45 at a bingo game, right? And sitting next to a police

1:04:49 officer's wife, right. And something came up within

1:04:53 that context that she was like, oh, yeah, I once saw this and

1:04:58 saw a little girl in a car. And like, she goes, I think you

1:05:00 need to speak to my husband. Like you need to go to the

1:05:02 police station and, and you know, contact him and, and have

1:05:05 a chat. Was she the one who still saw

1:05:08 the Wheel of Cherise? That's that's another one.

1:05:11 Another one, Yeah, yeah. No, because at least they came

1:05:14 forward relatively quickly. But this one took her years to

1:05:18 come forward and and only because she was pushed by a

1:05:21 police officer's wife who said, you know, no, you need to speak

1:05:23 up. And she had a very detailed

1:05:25 description. She was able to give a comfit

1:05:29 picture that matched Robert Lowe to the to the dot, which is why

1:05:35 they actually ended up being able to go and charge him.

1:05:39 Wow. Yeah.

1:05:42 Oh my God. But she she was only pushed at

1:05:45 the last minute of like in that in the years later to like do

1:05:47 that. So I just don't know how people

1:05:49 can hang on to this information and not come forward crazy.

1:05:53 But yeah, so the, and there were more other witnesses on the day

1:05:56 and now this one breaks me a little bit.

1:05:59 They, they were the one, they actually found her bike on the

1:06:01 middle of the road. So when the neighbor found the

1:06:03 bike, it was up against like a tree or.

1:06:05 Something it was up against a phone box.

1:06:07 Yeah, phone box. Yeah.

1:06:08 So, but what had actually happened was someone has been a

1:06:11 parent had been driving, a woman had been driving down the road

1:06:14 and the bike was like on the road.

1:06:17 So she stopped, grabbed the bike and obviously you know, kids

1:06:19 playing, this has happened and she's pulled the bike and put it

1:06:23 against the phone booth. In recalling that later, they

1:06:28 both know saw this who were in the car that day.

1:06:31 They realized that when they got there, the bike front wheel on

1:06:35 the bike was still rolling, was still moving, which suggests

1:06:39 that it was only seconds from her exiting from that bike and

1:06:44 the bike falling over and that wheel spinning and and leaving

1:06:48 and her coming along. So if they had driven along like

1:06:51 a minute earlier, potentially they could, they would have seen

1:06:55 the event of her at least being dragged into a car to then maybe

1:06:59 intervene, at least call the cops and then and there.

1:07:03 Yeah. Who knows, but that's that's

1:07:06 awful. Horrible.

1:07:07 Yeah. But yeah, there's.

1:07:09 So there's another one more witness which we can get into

1:07:12 then of. The little boy, The little boy.

1:07:14 So her schoolmate actually, yeah.

1:07:17 So he obviously recognised Cherie for being Cherie.

1:07:20 And he actually saw this man take physically pick her up off

1:07:26 her bike and shove like. The two of them have been

1:07:28 playing together. Yeah, he used the word.

1:07:32 He wasn't shoved in the car. It was like such a, the way he

1:07:36 described him, like like forced her in the car, like it was

1:07:40 completely against her will. But I mean, the trauma for that

1:07:45 little boy, he didn't really know what he'd just seen.

1:07:47 No, it was awful that he so the poor kid.

1:07:50 He'd done the wrong thing and he was meant to be at home for the

1:07:53 day and so he didn't come forward and he didn't say

1:07:56 anything. He thought he'd get into.

1:07:58 Trouble. He'd get into trouble for not

1:07:59 being at home where he was supposed to be.

1:08:01 But I can imagine Cherie probably went around and she was

1:08:02 like, come on, we're going for a bike ride, get out, let's go,

1:08:05 let's go. So the cops had done the right

1:08:07 thing, which was great. They, they'd actually gone to

1:08:08 the primary school and had a chat to the kids, you know, and

1:08:11 said, you know, anyone's seen Cherie on the day, you know,

1:08:13 around the neighborhood. And it was actually the oldest

1:08:15 sibling of this little boy who came forward to the police and

1:08:18 said to them, look, my little brother said he saw Cheree on

1:08:22 that day, and they're all. And so when they first

1:08:25 approached him, he was like, Nope, I don't know anything.

1:08:27 Nope, Nope, Nope. And then eventually they got out

1:08:29 out of him that. Yeah, he had seen Cheree.

1:08:31 Yeah. We'll talk to your mum and dad,

1:08:33 you won't be in trouble. Yeah.

1:08:35 And he then was able to give a description of the fact that.

1:08:38 Yeah, it was a blue car, an older man.

1:08:40 He gave a, you know, a decent enough description for them to

1:08:43 be able to put a few things together.

1:08:44 Yeah. Of what had occurred.

1:08:45 Yeah. So, you know, unfortunately he

1:08:47 obviously took it took time to get to him and find him as a

1:08:49 witness as well. So that all those things, I mean

1:08:52 not, I mean I don't know other than maybe them being able to

1:08:55 intercept the actual event of him taking him, taking her.

1:08:58 I feel like for me the biggest one is the mum and daughter who

1:09:01 saw her in the car. But even at that point, even

1:09:05 like, I don't know how. But if they had have called 000

1:09:07 and said I've just seen a distressed kid in a car, yeah,

1:09:10 this is the number plate. I don't know.

1:09:12 I don't know. I don't know.

1:09:13 You don't. Think he would have done what he

1:09:16 did? Well, we don't really know the

1:09:18 exact timeline of it, do we? I think it, I don't know, I

1:09:21 think it was quick. It was pretty quick.

1:09:22 I mean, it happened that day. So this all took place on the

1:09:26 29th of June in 1990. One, he was home, he he very

1:09:29 much later he confessed to being home by about 4430.

1:09:33 I think so. Yeah, yeah, around that.

1:09:35 So it it and this happened. He kidnapped her at 1:40.

1:09:39 So within three hours he'd done what he.

1:09:42 Did. Do we want to get into that or?

1:09:45 I mean, I think we mentioned before that she was raped.

1:09:48 Yeah. And murdered when?

1:09:51 So her body was found. How many days?

1:09:54 Oh, it was a long time. It was.

1:09:55 Actually. It was September 24th, yes.

1:09:58 It was months later when her body was found very very

1:10:00 advanced state of decomposition. She was found in a drain, in a

1:10:04 storm water drain by some people who would going horseback riding

1:10:09 and she was in such a terrible state of decomposition that she

1:10:15 wasn't visually identifiable. It took them a lot to try and

1:10:20 actually identify her through DNA, and it also meant that they

1:10:25 were unable to get an actual cause of death, so they weren't

1:10:29 able to conduct an autopsy because there wasn't enough of

1:10:34 her remains to be able to do that.

1:10:36 He disposed of her body in a most horrific way.

1:10:40 The the stormwater drain pipe was only 30 centimetres in

1:10:44 diameter. So I mean she was a small child

1:10:47 but still, to put her in there horrific is absolutely

1:10:51 disgusting. She was unclothed from the waist

1:10:54 below. She was just wearing a singlet

1:10:56 and AT shirt but they did find the other clothes because when

1:10:59 she went missing she was wearing a purple tracksuit and some

1:11:03 black runners and they did find I believe part of the purple

1:11:08 tracksuit. Because a lot of his, a lot of

1:11:10 he did dispose of much of her clothing because it had semen,

1:11:14 et cetera all over it. They never found her underwear,

1:11:17 and I believe they never found the pant bottoms.

1:11:20 Yeah, I don't think they found her shoes either.

1:11:22 I don't remember reading that there were.

1:11:24 Shoes being found tonight. Yeah, so.

1:11:26 But there was enough clothing around her to kind of suggest

1:11:29 that the the remains that they found did belong to her.

1:11:33 Yeah. Took them a while to then

1:11:35 forensically identify her, but it was eventually found that it

1:11:40 was the remains of poor little Cherie.

1:11:42 Yeah, so while all this is going on of them trying to find her

1:11:47 etcetera, obviously the police are working incredibly hard at

1:11:49 trying to identify suspects. Yeah, you just gave me a

1:11:54 horrific stat just before we started, which blows my mind.

1:11:59 But, and obviously the police probably checked out all of

1:12:02 that. I I believe so.

1:12:03 So what what I was saying to you is in the 20 kilometer radius of

1:12:07 where she lived, there was something like 450 known sex

1:12:10 offenders. I believe they narrowed it down

1:12:14 to 40 that they really looked into.

1:12:16 I'm not quite sure how they narrowed it down.

1:12:19 I'm not sure, but they fully very, sort of, very much looked

1:12:24 into forty of those people. The You just don't know who you

1:12:29 live next door to. You really don't.

1:12:32 And I mean, I know over the years people have, you know,

1:12:34 tried to push for these sorts of lists to be made public.

1:12:40 I understand why they're not. But I also think, fuck you, they

1:12:43 should be. Oh, you have no rights if you're

1:12:45 doing that to a child. Like no.

1:12:47 No gross. No, no, no.

1:12:49 Yeah. So in amongst all of this,

1:12:52 obviously in Robert Lowe's life, he was still attending.

1:12:56 Well, he had actually had a had a break from seeing Margaret and

1:12:59 he hadn't been seeing her for a while.

1:13:01 Because she'd start to call him on stuff.

1:13:03 He didn't like that, so he'd retreat.

1:13:05 Retreat. But he all of a sudden appeared

1:13:07 again at her door at this time. Can I say just really quickly,

1:13:11 the day that that Cherie went missing, there was a radio

1:13:15 bulletin put out. And yeah, Margaret was actually

1:13:18 driving at the time and she heard this radio announcement

1:13:20 about there's a missing girl in the Rosebud area.

1:13:23 If anyone knows something, please call the police.

1:13:26 And her immediate thought when she heard that, oh, that's

1:13:28 Robert. Robert's done that.

1:13:30 Because she knew that Robert Lowe had a holiday home in

1:13:33 Rosebud. Yeah.

1:13:34 So I guess we should say the area of Rosebud on the peninsula

1:13:37 there. It's especially back in the

1:13:39 early 90s. I mean, not a hell of a lot of

1:13:42 people lived in Rosebud. You were.

1:13:44 It was. It was a holiday town.

1:13:46 Now it's farm walks. Yeah.

1:13:47 Yeah. But it's well known for being,

1:13:49 you know, very sleepy, you know, coastal town.

1:13:52 Especially in June in the middle of winter.

1:13:54 Absolutely. So the the population in that

1:13:56 that Boynton Peninsula area, like Drupals over summer sort of

1:13:59 stuff. It's insane even to this day,

1:14:01 but more so even back then. So during June, I mean, her

1:14:05 local primary school would have been a very small primary

1:14:08 school. There probably was only one

1:14:09 grade per year level, dare say. Yeah, well, it's not an overly

1:14:13 populated area in that sense. It's overpopulated in summer,

1:14:17 but not in June. Yeah, no, so, but yeah.

1:14:19 So he had a holiday house down in in Rosebud.

1:14:23 So that kind of, I think really red flag for her of like a

1:14:25 connection between the two just location wise.

1:14:28 Yeah. But also then the MO of what?

1:14:32 Had he actually lived in Glen Waverley with his family?

1:14:35 So it's about an hour from Rosebud, just so you've got a

1:14:39 bit of context in terms of timings and space.

1:14:42 Yeah, so she connected already on it in that sense.

1:14:46 And then the next thing he does turn up to her office to start

1:14:49 some start sessions again. And he started saying a few

1:14:53 things that she was like, whoa, you're hinting at something.

1:14:58 So she started asking questions about like, because I'd already

1:15:02 released in the media what colour the car was and all those

1:15:04 sorts of things. So she did ask him questions

1:15:06 around the car, like we mentioned earlier, you know, and

1:15:08 the, the so the fact that he was driving around in a blue Corolla

1:15:12 hatchback, you know, and went to rent, went to Rosebud.

1:15:17 He did deny going to Rosebud to her originally.

1:15:19 On that day, Yep. But then later on it something

1:15:21 else came up that where he did say that he did go to Rosebud to

1:15:25 do some tiling. And so he this is where his

1:15:27 lies. Would you know?

1:15:28 He would say things, but then it would come out later when she'd

1:15:30 ask different questions. Yeah.

1:15:31 And get the truth. Yeah.

1:15:32 So she started making a few connections in her sessions and

1:15:36 look, we can get into later in terms of the actual legality of

1:15:39 this, but confidentiality and things like that.

1:15:41 She she was hesitant to speak to people about what she was

1:15:46 thinking, so she decided to anonymously ring, you know.

1:15:50 Christ stoppers. Yep.

1:15:52 And let, and so she did ring and say, look, I, I know that

1:15:55 there's a man in therapy, you know, through through my

1:15:58 contacts that he's this is how what's present he's presenting

1:16:01 with, you know, maybe you should look into and.

1:16:03 He's escalating. He's.

1:16:05 Escalating all these things. So as this is progressing and

1:16:07 the police are looking into, you know, different suspects and his

1:16:11 name is pinging also on lists elsewhere.

1:16:14 And also then from a Crime Stoppers report, they're going,

1:16:17 oh, hang on a second, we've got a report on that with that name

1:16:20 mentioned. Putting the two together, they

1:16:22 decide to go and speak to Margaret.

1:16:25 So the police have a chat with her and she's like, I do think

1:16:27 that he potentially is a suspect here at very least.

1:16:32 And unbeknownst to her at that time, they start bugging her.

1:16:35 Yeah, her room, her office, so that when she has her meetings

1:16:40 with him, they could hear what's going on.

1:16:41 They also at this time start to surveil him.

1:16:45 So he's quite heavily under surveillance because they do

1:16:48 believe he would potentially strike again.

1:16:50 Yes, which I think good job. Fucking.

1:16:53 He should have probably been on the well before, but yeah, so

1:16:58 between the two of the, you know, the sessions being

1:17:01 recorded and the surveillance, they're getting snippets,

1:17:03 they're getting small bits of information on him and building

1:17:06 a case. It was a very slow going though.

1:17:09 Because he played games like he was just fucked.

1:17:14 Yeah, fucked. Absolutely.

1:17:16 Well, he would like as one of the things that Margaret really

1:17:18 spoke about was the fact that he he enjoyed watching her reaction

1:17:23 to things. So sometimes you have to be a

1:17:25 little bit careful of is he just trying to get a reaction out of

1:17:28 me or is this truth, you know? So as you say, the games he

1:17:32 would play and that she would have to sit there and listen to

1:17:35 some of these most God awful things that he you know, and

1:17:38 show empathy somehow to this person so that she could have a

1:17:41 therapeutical impact on that just blows my mind to try and be

1:17:47 like that with somebody who absolutely repulses you to your

1:17:49 core. Yeah, but on outwardly not show

1:17:51 that you are reacting to. Their disgusting behaviour.

1:17:54 My face. No, my face will say everything

1:17:57 like, yeah, I'll be vomiting in her office.

1:18:00 I think he's just gross. Yeah, but at a point, the police

1:18:04 do confess to her that they are recording the sessions, and she

1:18:06 then is knowledgeable to it to at a point as well.

1:18:12 He also then eventually gets to a point where he says he wants

1:18:14 to take her and but they go down and do a trip down to Rosebud

1:18:18 because that might jog his memory.

1:18:21 But this was, again, it was all part of his game of like, you

1:18:23 know, revealing it all to her. I think it was.

1:18:27 He's really screwed up. Yeah.

1:18:29 So they ended up wiring her up for this trip down to Rosebud.

1:18:33 This occurred not long after I believe they found her body I

1:18:37 think or. Yeah, it was.

1:18:38 No, it was. I think it was in that week.

1:18:40 Yeah, because he was on maybe maybe if I, yeah, he sort of

1:18:43 says I'll I might remember more if I hit if I go into the area.

1:18:48 So they, they police and and Margaret sort of do team up.

1:18:52 So she is wired up for us and they do follow them and the

1:18:55 unbeknownst to him and they do because she.

1:18:57 Was worried for her own safety. So the police, oh, you would be.

1:19:01 She's like, I'm getting in a car with someone who I think has

1:19:03 murdered a child. Like you know what could happen

1:19:06 to me so. If you do just say the wrong

1:19:08 thing, that snaps him one way like, and all of a sudden he

1:19:11 goes, wait, you know too much. Yeah.

1:19:14 Oh yeah. God, yuck.

1:19:16 Yeah, Yeah. So what he tries to say at this

1:19:20 point, though, is what happened is that he yeah, he did get her

1:19:24 to come into the car, and he admits to that and pulled her

1:19:26 in. But what he says is that as

1:19:29 they're driving along, Cherie started to have, like, a bit of

1:19:33 a panic attack because she didn't want to be there.

1:19:35 And in her panic attack, she choked, She caught.

1:19:38 She was caught and died. Just just absolute utter

1:19:43 bullshit. And somehow he thought that

1:19:46 people would believe that story. So because then he was like, he

1:19:50 actually said to Margaret at one point, like, or if I did go to

1:19:53 the police and confess this, you know, like, what would be my

1:19:56 likely outcome from that? And she said to him, like, oh,

1:19:59 you know, it'd be manslaughter, not murder because like, you

1:20:01 know, you didn't, you didn't actually kill her.

1:20:05 I mean, so she was, you know, very well.

1:20:07 I faded like go along with this shit.

1:20:08 Yeah. But, yeah, I mean, God, there's

1:20:10 no way that actually happened that he thought people would

1:20:12 believe. That just blows my mind.

1:20:14 I know. Yeah, but they had to go along

1:20:16 with him doing this whole, you know, Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:20:18 Panic attack killed her. Yeah.

1:20:21 Yeah. You still kidnapped the little

1:20:24 girl, by the way. Yeah.

1:20:26 Anyway, Yeah. So this is the line he's taking

1:20:29 the whole time. And yeah, but they she take, he

1:20:31 ends up pinpointing exactly where this spot is, where the

1:20:34 body was found, which was not released to the public.

1:20:36 It was a general area. He took her straight to where

1:20:40 the body was left and said awful things.

1:20:43 She she to this, after this all occurred, there's people who

1:20:48 said they spoke to Margaret along the way and could see her

1:20:52 declining in terms of her own mental health, trying to be in

1:20:56 the same room as this man. And here the things he was

1:21:00 telling her was taking a huge toll on her.

1:21:03 So not only is she feeling unsafe, but she's also being

1:21:07 told. Horrific.

1:21:08 Horrific things that have occurred in this exact space.

1:21:12 I can't even imagine there that what she would have been going

1:21:16 through. So that's just awful.

1:21:18 But it did help the police's case, Yeah, for sure, at least,

1:21:22 yeah. They had all of that on

1:21:24 recording, yes and yeah, obviously was then used to

1:21:29 arrest him. So he was arrested and charged

1:21:34 with the kidnapping and murder of Cherie Beasley.

1:21:37 We should say that wasn't until March 1990.

1:21:40 Three, yes. It was literally like nearly two

1:21:43 whole years later. Yeah.

1:21:44 And then I believe the trial didn't start until the October

1:21:47 of that year or December of that year.

1:21:49 Yeah. Because it was until 94 that he

1:21:51 was sorry, December 94 that he was.

1:21:53 Yeah. Actually, also, it was another

1:21:55 year again. Yeah, that he was actually

1:21:56 convicted. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:21:58 Yeah, yeah. So just absolutely.

1:22:00 Crazy. Probably right?

1:22:01 Probably the October the trial probably started.

1:22:03 Yeah. So I mean, absolutely horrific.

1:22:06 But I mean, I guess thankfully the way that it all panned out

1:22:10 meant that so part of the there was a lot of legal argument with

1:22:15 regard to using these recordings from Margaret Hobbs because of

1:22:20 the fact that, you know, there is this perceived client doctor

1:22:26 sort of what do you call it? What's the word I'm looking for?

1:22:31 Confidentiality or privilege, they call it.

1:22:33 Yeah. Yeah, so, but the the thing that

1:22:35 got it across the line was the fact that Margaret wasn't

1:22:38 actually a doctor. Well.

1:22:39 Exactly to. Argue in court, Yeah.

1:22:42 That they didn't have a privileged relationship.

1:22:45 Yeah. Because so he wasn't actually a

1:22:48 doctor. No.

1:22:48 So the only people that actually this privilege is actually

1:22:52 connected to is Catholic priests, medical doctors.

1:22:59 And if she was a psychotherapist, which is

1:23:02 doctorate, whereas a psychologist, psychiatrist,

1:23:05 psychiatrist, sorry, what? Yeah, psychiatrist can also fall

1:23:08 under that category. It's medical, yeah.

1:23:10 And yeah, we have to have a hold that doctor state status,

1:23:13 whereas A psychologist doesn't, even with or without the

1:23:15 qualifications, whatever that throws me.

1:23:17 But yeah, psychology, psychologists don't fall into

1:23:20 this category. So she is not held to that same

1:23:24 level. That's right.

1:23:25 So it was more of an so for her here, it was an ethical thing,

1:23:28 not a legal issue, but but yeah. So there's no common law that

1:23:34 applies privilege to conversations between

1:23:36 psychologists and patients when there is emerging view that

1:23:40 legal, that illegal activity has occurred.

1:23:42 Yeah. Yeah.

1:23:43 So it was, it was able to be thrown out and all that, that

1:23:45 recorded stuff was able to be used between the two of them for

1:23:48 that reason. Yeah, Yeah.

1:23:50 Which is great because that ended in a conviction of the

1:23:54 kidnapping and murder of Cherie Beasley, and he was sentenced

1:23:58 bloody months later, but sentenced to life in prison

1:24:01 without the possibility of parole.

1:24:03 Other huge thing that got him in the end too was so they

1:24:06 obviously they arrested him in the March of 93 and he was put

1:24:09 into a cell, yes. I forgot about this, yeah.

1:24:13 So he was actually in a cell with a particular person that by

1:24:16 the name of Peter Reid. Now there's a couple of Peter

1:24:19 Reid's in the crime world, but this one is Reid.

1:24:24 Now he was a very, he was actually considered within the

1:24:26 top five of the most dangerous people in Australia.

1:24:30 He had killed a cop. So very, very bad and not, not

1:24:35 locked by police officers at all, at all.

1:24:40 So the two of them were in a cell together.

1:24:42 Because because they were both, they had to be protected

1:24:46 prisoners because they're like 1 was a cop killer and one was a

1:24:49 kid killer and rapist, A pedophile.

1:24:52 Yeah. So they had to be in this

1:24:54 special unit together. Sorry, go away.

1:24:57 Yeah. So they basically in that cell,

1:25:00 Robert Lowe started to confess to Peter what he had done.

1:25:05 And so Peter Reid had gone to the police and said to him, I'm

1:25:08 being told some pretty awful freaking shit over here.

1:25:11 And for him to say that. For him to say that, oh, it's

1:25:14 next level, like he's the one of the worst of the worst kind of

1:25:16 stuff, we need to really push that easily.

1:25:18 He was known as real bad, real bad news.

1:25:21 Yeah. So the police sort of came

1:25:23 together and we're like, well, maybe let's have a listen to

1:25:25 what he's got to say. So they pull him in and have a

1:25:28 chat with this Peter Reid. And they're like, yeah, this

1:25:31 information that you're giving us is something we want.

1:25:33 Would you be willing to go in and wear a wire and and do this?

1:25:37 And originally Peter Reid said to them, sure, but I want XYZ.

1:25:43 To the police's credit, they said no, mate, no, not going to

1:25:46 happen. You're not going to get

1:25:47 anything. You know what you'll get out of

1:25:49 this? Putting away one of the worst

1:25:53 child molesters, child murderers.

1:25:56 You will go down in history for doing that.

1:25:58 If you if you want to help us, help us.

1:26:00 If you don't fuck off, that's on you right now.

1:26:04 The thing was, Peter Reid, he was like, OK, or maybe I'll do

1:26:07 this. But he actually said the

1:26:09 clincher for him of actually saying yeah and diving, diving

1:26:12 and doing this was as he went to walk out of the room, the police

1:26:16 officer, just out of natural reaction to situations, he shook

1:26:20 his hand. And Peter Reid was, he said that

1:26:25 he had never had someone shake his hand who was in a position

1:26:31 of authority like that. Oh, wow.

1:26:32 Particularly not a police officer.

1:26:35 Yeah, right. Especially.

1:26:36 Given what he was in prison for. So he saw that as the biggest

1:26:40 sign of respect, the fact that this man shook his hand.

1:26:44 And he took it from that moment on that he was determined that

1:26:48 he would get this guy and. He did and he did.

1:26:52 So he went in first into the cell and he was this.

1:26:55 So Peter Reid's a very intelligent man, very

1:26:57 manipulative man, but so is Robert Lowe.

1:27:00 So they went into the cell and he decided to go about this in a

1:27:04 way which I thought was quite smart.

1:27:07 He took the tact of saying to Robert Lowe that he knew a

1:27:11 crooked lawyer who could help him out.

1:27:14 But he would the the lawyer would need to know the facts so

1:27:18 that then he could be able to come up with a story that would

1:27:21 include factual information to better get over the line, to

1:27:24 better get you out of this and get, you know, get you out of a

1:27:27 conviction, which makes sense. Yeah.

1:27:31 Kind of, you know. Yeah.

1:27:32 So Robert Lowe started spilling his guts.

1:27:36 He told him everything. And Peter Reid actually also

1:27:39 drew, he was actually an architectural draftsman.

1:27:42 He'd been trained as. And so he drew all these maps

1:27:44 and things and drew pictures of of the all this stuff of what he

1:27:46 was even being told. So not only has he got the

1:27:49 recordings, he's got. Visual aids and visual.

1:27:52 Aids to all this so they they they anyway they come away from

1:27:56 that and the cops are like this is great however you did too

1:28:00 much talking so they really found that because with this

1:28:03 they needed it to just come from.

1:28:05 So I think what they they worried about was that Peter

1:28:08 Reid was, like, leading the conversation.

1:28:10 And because he was, I guess, seen as being quite a powerful

1:28:14 figure in terms of the prison hierarchy, they wanted to make

1:28:17 sure that Robert wasn't just being coerced saying it yes, or

1:28:22 saying it to make him look good in front of Reid's eyes, you

1:28:26 know, basically. So yeah, they needed to get him

1:28:28 to go back in and try again. Try and try again.

1:28:30 He actually ended up having to in the in the end, he did three

1:28:33 different separate recordings of this, and by the third one

1:28:36 they'd got there. Yeah, they were like, OK, cool,

1:28:38 this is this is what we need. And they were only used bits

1:28:41 from all of them but. Yeah, yeah, they were.

1:28:43 But what they also had to go with that too, was CCTV from the

1:28:46 actual prison. Yeah.

1:28:48 Which showed how comfortable Robert Lowe was was when he was

1:28:52 talking. It wasn't as if he did have

1:28:54 someone standing over him to do this.

1:28:55 Yeah. So, yeah, between all of that,

1:28:57 the information was great. So then Peter Reed had to go

1:29:00 into the court and for the very first time he sat in the witness

1:29:04 box and to give his evidence. And it like, obviously the

1:29:08 defence lawyer for Robert Lowe, he took this as a, you know, I'm

1:29:11 gonna eat this guy up. And he tried to push buttons

1:29:14 with him and he did push buttons with him and got him to fire up

1:29:17 because he had a very short temper.

1:29:18 But they finally got that all calmed down and spoke to Peter

1:29:22 Reid and said to him, you're gonna fuck this up, mate.

1:29:24 You're gonna have to calm it. Yeah, keep it calm and do tell,

1:29:27 tell it out how it is. And he did a very good job.

1:29:30 And so that was really one of the the that along with

1:29:33 obviously what Margaret Robs, Margaret Hobbs was able to put

1:29:35 forward, really put the nail in the coffin.

1:29:38 For. Absolutely.

1:29:39 I also feel like so, Lorraine testified.

1:29:41 So they were. So he's Robert's wife, estranged

1:29:46 wife. They were no longer together

1:29:47 once she found out exactly what had happened.

1:29:49 Yeah. And, and she also testified, and

1:29:52 I found her testimony quite interesting because her

1:29:56 statement originally was, and this was because this is what

1:29:58 Robert told her to say or to do. Was that, well, he'd actually

1:30:05 instilled in her a real distrust of the police.

1:30:08 Yes. So given her upbringing, she

1:30:10 didn't have any interaction with the police.

1:30:12 It's not like she had, you know, the police officer visit the

1:30:14 local primary school and you know that they're a safe person

1:30:17 to go to. None of that.

1:30:19 So because he'd had so many little run insurance with the

1:30:23 police over the time he was like, the police are out to get

1:30:25 me. Don't ever talk to them.

1:30:26 They, they, they've, I don't know what's going on, but

1:30:29 they've got got it in for me. Don't ever say anything to you

1:30:32 also. Convinced her that having small

1:30:34 run insurance with the law was. Normal.

1:30:36 Yeah, like everyone has a run in with the law.

1:30:39 No, no, no. So, yeah.

1:30:43 So she just thought, OK, yeah, the police had to get him.

1:30:46 And I mean, she was so naive. Yeah.

1:30:48 So on. When they started asking about

1:30:51 her, when they interviewed her in relation to Cherie's

1:30:54 disappearance after they after they'd arrested Robert, she was

1:30:58 like, no, he was home that day. Anyway, upon reflection, many,

1:31:02 many months later, what she realized was she was actually

1:31:06 out all day at a tennis tournament with their sons.

1:31:08 We haven't even said that, but they had two sons and she was at

1:31:12 a tennis tournament with them all day.

1:31:14 She got home and she was starting to make dinner, which

1:31:17 is how she knows. He got home at about 5:00 or

1:31:20 whatever time it was 4:45, and she said the weirdest thing

1:31:24 happened. He immediately went, took off

1:31:27 his clothes, had a shower and went and put on a load of

1:31:30 washing, something he had never done in the 19 years of their

1:31:34 marriage to that point, No. And she said to him, what are

1:31:37 you like, why are you doing that?

1:31:38 What are you doing? And he's like, oh, I need some

1:31:40 casual clothes for tomorrow. And she's like, he had plenty of

1:31:44 clothes, Like, yeah, no. Yeah, so she also did leave

1:31:49 Robert in the midst of this. So I think it was it was fairly

1:31:53 early on in after like so I think maybe 92 ish or something

1:31:56 like that. She did leave him.

1:31:57 Yeah. So between that time and when he

1:31:59 was arrested, he had nowhere to live in the end.

1:32:03 He was dumpster diving for food and living in like, a halfway

1:32:07 house kind of situation in like, Gray St.

1:32:09 St. Kilda, which is actually where

1:32:10 they arrested him at. Yeah.

1:32:13 So his life declined drastically after she twigged to the fact

1:32:19 that her sons actually sort of stepped in and went, Mom, what

1:32:22 they're saying he's done he's. Done.

1:32:25 So their son's actually cottoned onto it.

1:32:28 Yeah. Pretty early on, apparently one

1:32:30 of them was he was a learner driver and he was in the car

1:32:33 with Robert and they on the radio, it came up and it was

1:32:38 like anybody who lives sort of in this area, if you own a blue

1:32:44 and they, they listed four different types of cars.

1:32:46 It was like a Toyota Corolla or a Nissan, whatever the hatchback

1:32:49 and a blah blah blah. Blah, yeah, blue colour, can

1:32:52 you? Please, like, turn yourself into

1:32:54 the police. We just need to have a quick

1:32:55 look through your car. Yeah, get the VIN, sort all that

1:32:58 out. And so Robert's son said, well,

1:33:01 why don't we go like, we'll just pop in now.

1:33:03 We should go and do that. And he's like, Oh no, no, it's

1:33:05 not my type of car. No.

1:33:08 And he and and the that was what made the sun go.

1:33:10 Why wouldn't we go? And that was his first

1:33:13 inclination, that there was something a bit not right here.

1:33:16 And you can't tell me that then if that's your immediate

1:33:19 reaction to that, you like something you knew something

1:33:21 already that was already that's connecting or absolutely.

1:33:23 Like, you know, like, yeah. I mean, for a young kid, I mean,

1:33:26 he was probably, what, 1617 to be able to go away.

1:33:29 What's my dad been up to? Yeah.

1:33:31 Like, to have that untrusting kind of feel.

1:33:33 Yeah. There's stuffs gone on.

1:33:35 Yeah, for sure. Yeah, yeah, sure.

1:33:38 Oh God. Oh dear.

1:33:40 So. Yes, so.

1:33:43 Well, so yeah, I just say he was convicted and sentenced to life

1:33:47 imprisonment plus 15 years, and he was marked as never to be

1:33:51 released. So no parole, nothing.

1:33:53 He would be in prison for the rest of his life and he was.

1:33:57 So unfortunately now he died. No, unfortunately not at all.

1:34:02 No, I didn't mean to say that. Actually, fortunately not soon

1:34:06 enough. He died on the 4th of November

1:34:09 2021, which did you know that was the day after?

1:34:13 Now, unrelated story, but I just like the connection here.

1:34:17 Yeah, he died the day after little Cleo who went missing in

1:34:21 WA. Yeah, was found.

1:34:23 No, I didn't know. That, yeah, I just felt that was

1:34:25 an interesting little tidbit. Yeah.

1:34:27 I mean, obviously they're different stories.

1:34:28 But. Some parallels and some way, but

1:34:31 thank God she was found. But yes, so she, yeah, I just

1:34:34 thought that was interesting. Now that he was in obviously in

1:34:39 jail for many, many years. He in that time was caught up

1:34:44 in, well, not caught up in with the police believe he was fairly

1:34:48 instrumental, instrumental in orchestrating this.

1:34:51 There was a child pornography ring where they would have like

1:34:54 visitors come to the prison and, you know, smuggle in material,

1:35:00 photos and things like this of children to then be distributed

1:35:04 around the jail. And yeah, he was sort of leading

1:35:09 that. What a fucking devious.

1:35:12 So clearly Leopard has not changed its spots and never

1:35:16 would. I think in his sentencing, the

1:35:19 judge who was actually in tears at the sentencing because of

1:35:23 just the horrific nature of this and the absolutely tragic loss

1:35:27 of Cherie's life, but he said you will never, you are unable

1:35:31 to be rehabilitated and that is why he gave such such a

1:35:35 sentence. Yeah, I mean, Margaret Hobbs

1:35:37 always said that too, from her take on him of all the therapy

1:35:39 she was doing with him. At no point was he making any

1:35:42 progress. He was, he was constantly

1:35:45 escalating, even with therapy in place.

1:35:48 It wasn't even stabilizing. There was it was just she knew

1:35:51 that he was not. He was going to perpetrate

1:35:53 something eventually. Yeah.

1:35:54 Which is why she got that gut instinct to, you know, straight

1:35:57 away with that rosebud connection.

1:35:58 Yeah, that he had to have been him.

1:36:02 Gross. It's horrible.

1:36:04 So Margaret Hobbs actually wrote a book or started to write a

1:36:07 book about all of her experiences with regard to this

1:36:10 case. I think for her it was a way of

1:36:13 getting it all out on the paper because, as you said, she really

1:36:16 suffered throughout all of this, you know, can't even imagine.

1:36:23 But she actually passed away while she was writing the book.

1:36:26 And the most beautiful Andrew Rule finished the book off for

1:36:30 her. Yeah.

1:36:31 And published it. Andrew Rule, you know, you can

1:36:35 listen to his podcast. I love him.

1:36:37 He's just so great. Yeah.

1:36:39 Listen to his podcast about this case because he's got a lot more

1:36:43 knowledge than we do about it. And obviously he's, you know,

1:36:46 co-authored a book about it. So yeah, definitely give that a

1:36:50 read or listen to his podcast as well.

1:36:52 It's really, really good. Yeah.

1:36:55 But yeah. That's kind of the story of

1:36:58 Cherie Beasley. I mean, again, I think keeping

1:37:02 her name out there, just remembering what a beautiful

1:37:05 little girl she was, Sparky, sparky, vibrant, you know, young

1:37:09 life that was tragically, tragically and horrifically

1:37:12 lost. Absolutely.

1:37:14 Family again that far reaching ripple effective crime I.

1:37:18 Was gonna say there was one story I heard about her, her

1:37:21 grandfather Neil, who we spoke about in saying that he was.

1:37:26 So he had a lot of guilt in terms of him and how he's right.

1:37:29 He raised his daughter and that Kerry and then obviously then

1:37:33 Cherie to the extent of like to look for Cherie.

1:37:37 There was was like a clairvoyant at one point prior to it being

1:37:40 announced publicly that it was a blue car.

1:37:44 In her telling, she said that that there was a blue car

1:37:47 involved, named a name and a couple of other details and

1:37:52 things. And so when it was, it was found

1:37:55 out that it was a blue car involved, he was like, he

1:37:58 latched onto this information, right?

1:38:00 That she obviously did no stuff. Yeah.

1:38:03 And particularly then he looked up this name that she mentioned

1:38:07 and he found that there was a small town outside of the Hunter

1:38:10 Valley in Sydney in NSW at the by the name by this name.

1:38:15 And she mentioned a few other things that connected like a

1:38:17 particular place of that. That's where she is, right,

1:38:21 right. So he took it upon himself at

1:38:24 this point, like this is early days.

1:38:26 He got in his car and he drove from the Mornington Peninsula to

1:38:31 this little town north of the Hunter Valley.

1:38:34 Wow and went to he found a place there which was like a like an

1:38:41 abandoned house, checked it out from top to bottom searching

1:38:47 found that she wasn't there obviously and got back in his

1:38:50 car and drove all the way back to anywhere to Melbourne.

1:38:53 It's. Like a 12 hour he did it in he.

1:38:56 Did it in 12, he did it in 24 hours.

1:38:58 Like the back there and back, like actually to the point of

1:39:01 like no sleeping whatever. And he did it that he actually

1:39:03 damaged his car. I think he hit some road work

1:39:06 sign or something at one point because he shouldn't have been

1:39:08 driving. He was probably lucky that's all

1:39:10 that happened really. But that's how determined he was

1:39:14 and how much love he had for Cherie and how he wanted to find

1:39:18 her. That just breaks my heart.

1:39:22 That's awful. Yeah, awful.

1:39:24 So I mean, because I think out there is a lot of information of

1:39:26 obviously Sheree had a pretty rough upbringing in her short

1:39:29 life, but people loved her. Yeah, she was.

1:39:33 I think it's undeniable that she.

1:39:34 Was, and she was. As much as maybe she was not

1:39:36 supervised in those moments where she should have been, she

1:39:40 was very much loved. Absolutely.

1:39:41 Yeah, absolutely. I, I don't think that's ever

1:39:44 been disputed. No, I think she had a, you know,

1:39:47 she had a wide network of people around her who loved her.

1:39:50 And the community that she was living in really sort of

1:39:52 embraced her as well. She was being raised by a

1:39:54 village. I think he's a he's a I agree.

1:39:56 Yeah, And that's what she thing to say.

1:39:58 Yeah, yeah. If only there was better

1:40:00 villages. I mean, yeah, Rose, But at this

1:40:02 time I say was quiet town. But you know, we should have

1:40:05 said. Robert Lowe had seen Cherie

1:40:08 previously to this. He had targeted her.

1:40:11 Yeah. It wasn't as random as it

1:40:13 appeared. No, he had seen that she was not

1:40:15 supervised on a regular basis. Yeah, I think at a dance class

1:40:20 he'd been loitering around that she was attending as well.

1:40:22 She. Was Yeah.

1:40:23 And, and that was actually reported to the police.

1:40:25 Yeah. So he was, he actually was

1:40:27 fondling himself. What?

1:40:28 Looking through, looking through the dance class window, he was

1:40:32 fondling himself. And so obviously that was

1:40:34 reported to the police. They never caught him.

1:40:37 Yeah. They didn't know it was him at

1:40:38 the time. They didn't know it was him.

1:40:39 So the dance class teacher was like, you know, sent a thing out

1:40:43 to parents saying, you know, this has happened.

1:40:46 Make sure that you know you're here to pick up your kids on

1:40:49 time and you know that. Be extra cautious.

1:40:53 And the dance teacher actually said she was really concerned

1:40:56 about Cherie because she rode a bike to dance and home again.

1:40:59 And even despite, even after this incident happened, that

1:41:05 still continued. So he did know her.

1:41:09 He had seen her around. We don't know how long he'd been

1:41:13 following for her for. I believe there'd been sightings

1:41:16 of him around Rosebud Primary School as well.

1:41:18 So there's, you know, there's a lot of opportunities there for

1:41:23 him to have really kind of gotten a bit of a feel for.

1:41:25 Yeah, the fact that she probably wasn't actively supervised,

1:41:29 really. Yeah, he he apparently that day

1:41:32 he went down to Rosebud to see. Sharif.

1:41:36 Like that's how deranged he was. He'd gone from church that

1:41:41 morning, where he was a Sunday school teacher.

1:41:44 He was also like a cricket coach and stuff and he just.

1:41:47 And he's got convictions like, I mean, get involved, get, I mean,

1:41:50 all that at the moment, but. Yeah, I know, but like this is

1:41:52 back in the time before like a working.

1:41:54 With children check this is. It and This is why we've got

1:41:56 these working with children's checks.

1:41:57 I know people like paper they're written on.

1:41:59 I, I know, I know. But it is maybe a thing, you

1:42:02 know, and it might stop somebody from getting one thinking that

1:42:06 something might come up and then they won't be working with our

1:42:08 kids or volunteering to be a coach or whatever.

1:42:11 Yes I know it can be a pain in your ass to have to do 1 but.

1:42:14 There's reasons for. Safety of kids, and I'm sure

1:42:15 there are better things that we can do and all that's an that's

1:42:18 a completely separate argument. Yeah, but I think, you know,

1:42:22 there was nothing like that back then.

1:42:23 So how are they to know that the cricket coach was a fucking

1:42:26 pedophile Kitty Fiddler? Yeah, well, that's it.

1:42:32 Oh, he's just gross. Absolutely gross.

1:42:33 Human. And I'm glad he's gone.

1:42:35 Yeah, me too. Me.

1:42:37 Too All right, our next episode next week is Jamie Faith, Faith

1:42:41 this one. It's an interesting case.

1:42:43 Yes, I actually don't know a huge, huge amount about it.

1:42:47 Jamie is the husband. It was, you know, husband and

1:42:49 wife Jamie and Jennifer off the top.

1:42:52 Of my. Head, yes, you're right.

1:42:53 That's where I had Jennifer in my head because I think I'd just

1:42:56 written down Jamie just right before it said OK Anyway, sorry,

1:42:59 yeah, just going back to the start of the episode there and

1:43:01 how my brain works. Yeah.

1:43:03 So stay tuned next week for that one.

1:43:05 Yeah, it's a really fascinating. I'm really that one actually.

1:43:08 Yeah. I'm really looking forward to

1:43:08 looking into this. One yeah, me too.

1:43:10 Got me gripped actually. Yes.

1:43:12 OK. So we'll we'll come back and

1:43:14 visit us next week for that. Yeah.

1:43:15 Thank you for joining us again. We really appreciate everybody's

1:43:18 support. Come join us over in at the

1:43:20 Patreon as well and join up. We're gonna be releasing that

1:43:24 episode ASAP. Yeah, that's it.

1:43:27 Excellent. Oh, stay curious, crime besties.

1:43:29 Bye.