Episode 59 - Sheree Beasley and Robert Arthur Selby Lowe

0:14 Welcome back Crime Besties to another episode of Two Crime Besties with your bitches. Megan, Emma. The pictures are back. Yes. Who's back? We're recording this on a Sunday morning, very different to our normal timing. So we're just like slightly more unhinged than normal maybe? Maybe. And we didn't even have wine at breakfast. I don't know why not, actually. What did we do? My perfect time for Mimosa. Oh yeah, we really missed an opportunity. Did how did that? Occur. No, I I blame you. Yeah, I threw it because I was late.

0:46 It was fine, it was fine. But yes, pre recording we had a lovely breakfast so we're well and truly fuelled and ready to go for recording today. But yes, the reason for the delay we normally record on a Friday is because it has been a mental week for you in particular. But even without, I don't even know how you've gotten through this week, but even without all of your extra things, it's just been a mental week anyway. It was going be a busy week no matter what. Yeah. And then, then, then just, you know, life became too difficult.

1:20 This it. Was just one of those things where I just feel like shit was piling on you left, right and center. Literally, I think I sent you a message one day morning this week of just like this week can go suck a bag of Dicks. Yeah, yeah, it was all a bit much. So we had a just just baseline, right? We had a school dress up day. Yeah. Then we had the kids school production, which was on Wednesday night and Thursday night. Yeah, absolutely gorgeous. Oh, that. Was so. Gorgeous. Oh, so gorgeous. And then.

1:49 Yeah, so that was just too. Late night anyway, and then, you know, yeah, the usual sports stuff in between that you could fit in and yeah. And then and then on top of that, you just had so much other stuff going on. And then I'm like, you actually cannot on Friday. I insist. You need to actually take a day. Yeah, chill out. I. Can't tell you how much I appreciated that when I hadn't even entered my head. I was because I had not got to the point of researching to the where I would what normally want to be that I was like just going to have to find time like somewhere like it was.

2:22 I would have to. I was going to say to you, you know, like, in my head, I was like, well, if if you're busy Friday morning, then when we started later, you know, then I could go and sit in a cafe somewhere and, you know, plow through everything and, like, you know, hardcore cram it. But like, yeah, it hadn't even entered my head of, like, moving the day until. So when you message me that, I was like, oh, my God,

2:44 Hallelujah. There's a break in this.

2:48 Get a day to rest. Were you able to do anything nice for yourself on Friday? I mean, I don't know about nice, but just, I just took a step back. Good. You know, in that I just, yeah, I got home after we'd done. We caught up. Yeah, it was randomly. And then, yeah, I went home and I, I'd picked up groceries and stuff like that, that when I got home, I literally did the bare minimum of what needed to get done. Got a load on, got a load hung out, you know those bits. And then when I'm sitting down, oh.

3:18 Yay, good for you. Did you catch up on some like real trash TV? Over the weekend I have, I'm all caught up on all my housewives, although I haven't started one that I'm. I'm very wanting to start London, yeah. I can't wait to watch London. I haven't started it yet either. Well, it's only one episode out. Yeah, right. I wasn't sure exactly how far. Behind I was no, you're just. You're not. You're 1. OK, that's right. I'm not feeling bad there because I'm just, I'm so into the other ones. I don't want to overload that.

3:44 I'm like, I need to just take in what I've got going on. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I get it, I get it. I'm still actually a couple behind on OC. OK, but can't wait. Mental. It's mental, but I can't wait to start London, so I'm gonna have to, I don't know, figure that out at some point. Yeah, but it's worth it, worth making the time for the. Definitely. I have to say because of a few episodes back, we got into the Doctor death one right and Joshua Jackson. Fuck, I just love him. Well, I've gone back and rewatched Dawson's Creek.

4:19 Have you? Is it as good the second? Time, my guilty pleasure of. Recent. Is it as good? I have to say it's it's as good, but at the same time I see it from a completely different perspective. Yeah. And fuck me, Dawson Leary, he's a narcissistic piece of shit and his. Dad, Yeah. Oh my God. Yeah. Oh my God, yeah. It's next level. I never saw that in the show when I watched it. Of course. I mean, we were kids and. Now I see it and go Oh my God, it just makes me love Pacey even more. Oh, I know, right?

4:52 Well, I haven't I haven't revisited it in adulthood, but I know like the the character like Dawson, he was so problematic. I even remember at the time I'm like how can anyone actually like this guy? But but I almost don't want to visit nostalgia. I don't want to change what it is in my mind. Well, I'm watching at the moment, kind of going. I can't remember, Was I rooting for Dawson at this point? Like where I'm at right now? I. Ever rooted for? Dawson and I can't remember which, I think, is that what we're supposed to be wanting?

5:21 Is Dawson to be to win or am I? Because I'm like, I'm all I'm, I'm all team Paisy, 100% team Paisy. And I think I would have been back then too. Oh, I I was, I had Joshua Jackson posters all over my walls. I just wanted to marry him. Yeah. To this day I want to marry actually. Saw an interview with him recently. Yes, my God, you know he split up with his wife. I know so I know you know his. House burnt down in those in the LA fire. He was being interviewed, a part of the interview he spoke about Yeah.

5:50 And, oh, he's just beautiful, gorgeous. The way he was talking about his child and how, like, the child had gone off to mum's, you know, while when this occurred. And he goes, and that was kind of good because it gave me a week to find somewhere for us to live and, you know, and, like, get prepared for them bringing his child back into the mix to kind of go, this is where we're at and this is what's going on. And he talked about how his child processed it and everything. And it was just, oh, my God, he was so beautiful.

6:16 Oh, my God. Yeah. Yes, please, yes. Please. Yeah, that was my porn. Watching an interview with Josh Jackson. Yeah, fair. Yeah, I get that. I really, really get that. Yeah, we've had some incredible weather this week and it has inspired some spring cleaning in me. Oh, God. And so on Friday, because we had, you know, I, I had a day sort of free then because we weren't doing our podcast. So we bumped into each other at Kmart, yes. And I was getting stuff to. Spending $5 spending. $5 plus $5 + 5 dollars which somehow totaled $150.00 but anyway because I wanted to like redo some storage stuff in my bathroom well.

6:59 Yeah. 4 hours later I came out of the bathroom just a shell of my former self, but I had thrown out like all of my expired makeup and, you know, all that shit that just accumulates and I haven't used in ages all the skin care that I've opened and just not used and whatever. Yeah. And I'm down to like bare bones now and it is giving me. Life. Oh yeah. Oh my God. I need to do that desperately too. Actually, that's one of my How long does it actually take? I need. To Well, it actually took me 4 hours yeah well and that was like literally taking off everything, washing everything.

7:36 I washed all my makeup brushes. I I did like, deep cleaned the entire bathroom. Yeah. So it was incredibly satisfying. Is that my beige flag? She. Enjoys a spring clean?

7:53 You know you're old when? Yeah. Oh yeah. Boring, yeah, but really, I loved it. I love a good organization like it's, yeah, it does bring you life. It really did. Yeah. And it's really sort of inspired me to now do a bit more spring cleaning and cleaning out around the house. I cleaned out our front hall cupboards the other day. I don't know. I'm just. I love this time of year refresh, reset for spring and summer. I can't wait for the nice warm weather to, like, continue. Yeah, it's great. Yeah. Although I think this week's gonna be really wet.

8:23 I want the sun more like what we've got today. Yes, I know. It's so nice. Yeah, so. So nice. Good, good. We need a much better week than last week. Yes, please. Although I just feel like this term at school, it's going so quickly because it's every week there's been something on. It's just so busy. Yeah, as I said to you this week, it's term 3. Nothing happens in Term 3. Let's put it in Term 3. It's always boring in Term 3. Let's put it in Term 3. That's the school. There's a lot. Everything goes into Term 3.

8:51 There's no report writing and. Yeah, OK. Have you ever had anything on in Term 3? So we'll put it in Term 3. Everything's in Term 3. Everything's in Term 3. It's. Really. Although I feel like at Christmas time last year we were saying that about term four, Term 4's busy. Like there's always the extra Christmas concerts, there's all that stuff that goes with. Yeah, I think we'll just need to dial it back a bit. Do we really need all that extra stuff? Like, I mean, don't be wrong, production definitely needed to occur.

9:20 That was a core memory for children doing that stuff. I love it. Love how much my kids, my kid loved it. You know, I even sat through it twice because it was so sweat. Cluttons for punishments.

9:35 Yeah, yeah, it's good the second time.

9:40 But yeah, no, those things need to occur. But there are certain things that we could remove. I feel, yeah, that we don't. Need make them. Make them during school time. I'd love the book pro to do that. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, the costume shit for that. I mean, I completely cheaped out this year in that made him wear a T-shirt that said pretend I'm a frog because I couldn't find a fucking frog costume. I, I think I sent you a photo at 5:00 the night before, so 5:00 on last Sunday night. There was construction paper from one end of our dining table to the other because I had to figure out how to make a platypus bill and a platypus table table table because Ollie wanted to go as Perry the Platypus to book day we got.

10:25 Out of. Phineas and Ferb, which is ATV show, but there is a book I used to, I used to be so like, no, you're not going as anything from Timmy. It has to be from a book only. And now I'm like, I actually don't care. Yeah. My eldest I was like that but when my youngest came on who was mad Spiderman had every had every Spiderman costume under the sun as. And also never removed a Spiderman costume. Knew his body. Oh. My God, trying to get those things washed. Ohh, remember that. Ohh I do ohh, I remember.

10:53 Yeah, so when he like when we got to book weeks with him and he was like, I wanna be Spiderman, I was like, oh fuck. It sure like. Whatever you do, you Boo. I'm arguing with you. Pick my battles. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, yeah. That that that died with that. So that we we found Spiderman books. It's fine. Yeah, everyone can. Everything. I feel like you can find a book for anything. Like there were kids in basketball outfits and. You know, previously basketball, it's been book week slash numeracy week at our school and that's why like there was kids that I I know they come and recycled.

11:21 Costumes of Rubik's cubes and stuff. So but this this year they they dropped the numeracy side of it. It didn't get mentioned. Yeah, it really, that really threw me because my kids have always chosen numeracy based costumes. Yeah. So that actually threw me because I feel like they're easier. Oh totally. My son just wore it's Steph Curry get up and oh, number 30. 30 yeah, it's got numbers on it last year my kids both went as an Uno card, which was easy do you remember yes, that was an easy one to make but Oh yeah I mean I do love it and it is fun and I love that primary schools are fun and you know that's.

11:57 A great. I didn't need the fun. Do we need the fun at all? I didn't find the. Fun last Sunday, So it's 5:00 making this fucking costume. Yeah, but anyway, it's done now and we're done for Book Week for another year. But you know, like every time you do that, you're setting yourself up for the next year that you've got to maintain that. Level. Oh, mate, this was so basic. That's why this could not have been more basic. I'll show it to you when we. Yeah, yeah, it is. It was the worst thing I've ever made.

12:25 I couldn't have put. I really probably couldn't have put any less effort into it. OK, cool, my less effort. Pretend I'm a frog. Yeah, but you iron that on you. Iron that. I mean, that's effort. That's about the effort I went. To actually, as my mum would say if I got an iron out, it's got to be serious. Yeah, that's. True. If I get an iron out, that's true. My iron is only. You know you owned an iron. Oh, it's just for your iron on. Don't I? I don't own an ironing board. OK. Because I don't iron iron.

12:55 So how do you decrease your clothes? Just wash well and hang out well. But even if you hang it like you still, it's still they get hot. I'm hot. It's fine, it's just irons itself. It irons on your body.

13:12 Hey, at least that perimenopause is doing something for you. It's got to be useful. For something.

13:18 Oh, I'm looking forward to that. Then no. No, you're not. Yeah. OK, so shout outs for today. We have had five new Patreons join us. So if you'd like to join us, we've got a $5 bestie tier over at patreon.com/two Crime Besties. So we would like to officially thank Catherine Schutz, Rachel Johnson, Soph Victory, Kim Paddock, and Emma James. So thank you ladies, so very, very much for joining us over there. In the next sort of week or so, we will be getting our first patron only Patreon only episode up there.

13:59 So if that's something that you feel like you would like to do, please come over and join us there. We also still have our Buy Me a Coffee going if anyone wants to, to support us in that way as well. And we appreciate any likes, comments. All of that really goes a long way to helping getting our episodes out to more people. And we are noticing like our numbers are growing every week and it's so exciting. It's so nice that people, most people like what we're doing. We did get one comment this morning, but OK, yeah, we'll just move on from that.

14:33 Oh look, as I said to you, why do these people have too much time in their hands? Why would you bother doing? I also feel. Like any publicity is good. Well, if you want to comment. It actually pushes the algorithm in the. Other way like. You think you like telling us that we suck when we you're actually just making more people find us? Yeah. So thank you. Yeah. Thanks. Appreciate it. Appreciate it. But I mean, when we get like one of those out of the other hundreds of phone call, a phone call, 100 messages, yeah, You do you, Boo.

15:01 Yeah. We're not everyone's cup of tea, and we're OK with that. Yeah. Totally, totally, totally. Yeah. All right, should we get into today's episode? Let's. Let's do this. This is. Yeah, this is a tough one because it relates to the murder of a young girl. So if that's something that you don't feel like you can listen to, please just don't. It's a it's a tough, yeah, very, very tough one to listen to. Today we're talking about the murder of Cherie Joy Beasley. So she was born on the 25th of February 1985 S same year I was born.

15:34 Yeah. And that, I just feel like that hits home. Yeah. So much because we grew up in the same time. Yeah, you would be the same age. Same age, you would be in the same year level at school and it's just she. Should be celebrating her 40th birthday this year with. All of her friends and her family and she's not. Her life was really, really horrifically taken from her in 1991 when she was about 6 years of age. So we we've sort of talked about how we're going to present this case because there's sort of really two key people that we need to talk about.

16:10 So yeah, should we start with Sheree? Sheree and her life. And her life. Yeah, I think that's the best way to start, yeah. So Cherie, as I said, was born in 1985 to dad Anthony and mum Carrie Greenhill. She was described so she was the first to born to both of her parents and she was described as being quite a Placid and lovely baby, but I think by the time she was a toddler she was quite the handful. Yes, I believe she they went along to a play group her mum took her along to at one stage and they were asked to leave because Cherie was quite rambunctious.

16:49 Can you imagine being asked to to be, to be removed, like, oh, sorry, don't come back to play group. This is all a bit much for us. Like, she must have been pretty unspirited. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, look, if you look at the photos of her that you do see all night and you can see this like real cheeky but incredibly gorgeous, small that she's got that you just go. Yeah, I can just imagine her causing a few few issues. Yeah. You know, but in the most gorgeous of way. Yeah. Only a toddler can I. Think, I think you've said this to me before.

17:19 Like, there's those kids who are cheeky, yeah, but in a really gorgeous and beautiful way. They're not, you know, they're not naughty because they want to be naughty. They're just like cheeky. It's they've got a spunky personality. And I feel like, I mean, you look at that photo of her, which is the photo I think that everyone thinks of all, even when you just Google her, it's the first photo that comes up and that's her school photo in that blue and white. Yeah, checkered school. For us and her, the look on her face and that, I'm like, I feel like you get a lot, you know a lot about her just from looking at her face in that photo.

17:49 Definitely. I don't know if that's her prep or grade one photo kind of thing, but you can just imagine, like, you know, that she is that kid in their class that has a few of them in giggles at times. Like, you know, and that the teacher's always constantly telling to, you know, maybe move seats so you stop talking. Yeah, sit up the front. Yeah, yeah. Always get reminded by a particular student of mine who would turn, who turned to me many years later and said to me or she said to me at the time, she's doesn't matter where you're going to put me.

18:16 I still talk, yes. I know that. I can see that, I can hear that. Yeah. In 1987, Cherie's sister Crystal was born so to the same parents, to Anthony and Kerry. And not long after her birth, her mum and dad did sort of split up things. I think they were very, very young when they got together. Well, she, Kerry had Cherie at 17. Yeah. So they were very young and their parents so. So that yeah, because Kerry was 19 I think when they split. So yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. They around this time Kerry moved to Mornington with the 2 girls.

18:55 So with her two year old and a new baby. Yeah, because she had some family support there. Yeah, but she's also got caught up in a not quite right kind of crowd, I think in terms of where she was heading a little bit too. Well, that's right and around. So it wasn't very long after she split up with Anthony that she entered into a new relationship with a man by the name of Shane Beasley. Yeah, I think it was one in between, but yeah. And then Shane. Who? I think it was very, very quick though, like still within a month or two they were together.

19:24 They were living together then very, very quickly as well. Yeah, and Shane had a very well known drug addiction problem. He would take Rohypnol, heroin, which I mean, they're just, I mean, awful. Horrible. Like Rohypnol's a date rape drug. Yeah, I don't. I didn't know that people took that recreationally. Yes. I think I thought the same thing. I thought it was really strange. Yeah. But then I guess if you wanna black out and just. Well, I mean. The world. Has that sort of similar effect, I guess in that you get a high from it, but you've it's, you know, you're pretty much passed away.

19:56 Yeah, I believe I'm just not from experience. Yeah, like, yeah, that I, I guess that Rohypnol maybe is something similar, but I don't think you'd get a high from. It I don't thought. You just got knocked down. Don't remember what happened. Yeah. I don't know, yeah. But yeah, so he but he OD on a somewhat somewhat regular basis. Yeah, so much so they had Narcan in the house. Yeah, yeah. You know, just in case, just which I mean probably fair call because I believe it had to be used on several occasions.

20:22 Well, they did have the, you know, ambulances arrived to do that as well at times and. This is in front of the two girls, too, Like it's this was something they were exposed to a really hard life. Yeah. Very, very early on. Yeah. And at this time, like there were, it was so many issues that that there were people who stepped in and that the girls were removed at times, for certain periods of times. They would. They did. At one stage, Cherie was put with her paternal grandfather Neil, and the younger sister Crystal was put with her maternal grandmother.

20:53 Marie. Marie Yeah. So they were, they were split up, but that's because her they they were split up themselves. The grandparents weren't together, but so the girls were separated into two different households, but obviously that was still communicating with each other and still saw each other. Yeah. But so they were, you know, then they were taken back to mom. And so there was a lot of disruption, I guess it within the household in that. Respect. So they were removed by the department of well, it's called DHHS back then.

21:18 So the Department of Health and Human Services, Yeah. And I mean, thankfully they had a family that member, that family members that they could go to. Neither grandparent really felt able to take on both girls. I mean, that is a huge responsibility to take that on. But as you said, at least they were still in communication. They still saw each other regularly. So it was Kerry's parents themselves. They were, they were very young when they fell pregnant with Kerry. So it's kind of this generational thing where they had actually themselves had her very young, then split up.

21:51 And then in doing that, Kerry's grand, Kerry's grandparents raised her, yes, which Neil particularly has spoken about the fact that he then later had a lot of guilt around that the two that he felt like that really did impact Kerry and then her life choices and then ultimately potentially what happened with Cherie. So a lot of guilt there and how they've raised their their children and their choices. But as young teenage parents, that's really difficult. I believe they were only in their 30s when when Cherie was born, her grandparents were in her 30s.

22:24 So it just goes to show how young this whole family was. Yes. So in Neil did remarry a woman by the name of Denise and they really did take the girls, you know, along with Marie take the girls under their wings. They were with them originally for about 8 months and then it was deemed safe for them to return to Kerry's care or to Kerry and Shane's care and. Just oh God. This was around the time then in 1989 but another daughter was born so this was now to parents Shane and Carrie and her name was Jacinta and I guess they were trying to make a go of it as a family of now five.

23:05 It difficult, difficult. Anthony's parents were still involved with the girls at this point and I believe Anthony was as well but his parents would take them. So take the the 2 biological granddaughters for weekends and apparently it got to a point where they would actually take the girls from Friday night to Sunday night every single weekend because Kerry had a new baby. And it was all like, I think they could see that this wasn't the best environment for their granddaughters necessarily. And so to ease some of that strain and give them, you know, respite, maybe some respite, you know, hats off to them for doing that because, you know, from all accounts, they were very, very loving and caring grandparents.

23:52 And the fact that they were willing to do that, I think shows, you know, shows a lot. Absolutely. So in February of 1990, Shane Junior was born and at about and apparently Cherie was the most doting young mother. In many ways, Cherie was older than her six years and whether that was, I mean, what did that due to the fact that she wasn't mothered in that, you know, in the way she she had to step up and do things. She would get up and make her own breakfast. She would pack her own lunch boxes for school, all those I. Actually, can we just talk about that for a second?

24:31 Because I find that the the telling of that, the adulteration of a child. Yeah, I find that really uncomfortable because I was listening to an interview with Kerry where she talked about, oh, but you know, she wanted to make her own lunch box and she would make her lunch boxes. And she had to learn really quickly that she couldn't just make all 5 lunch boxes at the start of the week because her sandwich would be stale by the end of the week. Like, why does a fucking 6 year old have to learn that black that's it's too much.

25:02 You and I were talking with our friend this morning about kids becoming too old too soon. Yeah, this is a Primo example of that. But she obviously, as in Cherie, obviously felt like she had to do that. Yeah. Like, what are the six year olds doing that? Absolutely no. It's just she's. As you said, it is the parentification of a young child. Yeah, and that really does not sit comfortably with me. No, no. So as much as you know it sounds lovely that she really cared for her her new sibling, it's also I think her just needing someone in the household to be responsible and that all became almost a 5 year olds responsibility.

25:41 Yeah, so this is what actually gets me. When Shane was 10 weeks old, Cherie went to wake him up because it was 8:00 AM and he normally wakes at 6:00 AM for a bottle and mum and dad were still asleep. I mean, I get it, with a 10 week old you're probably exhausted, but still. It's not, it's your. Responsibility. But anyway, Cherie's gone in to check on him and she couldn't wake him up, so she's run into a mum and dad's. Oh well, mum and step dad's room and raised the alarm. And what actually eventuated was the fact that Shane had died of SIDS Sudden Infant Death Syndrome, or what used to be known as cot death.

26:22 And Oh my God, the. Fact that, yeah, she was the one who found him is really distressing. I really find that, don't you? Hear about the react, her reaction to that. She basically, I mean, she wouldn't have at 5. She wouldn't have had, she wouldn't have been able to process that. But she knew it was something so bad that she ran out of the house and was like screaming up and down the road in the yeah, up and down the street. Just she probably didn't know what to do. Like she knew it was like this big overwhelming horrible thing.

26:57 But as a 5 year old, what do you do? Oh my God, just my heart breaks for with that. I mean, that's awful. But then to follow on from that, within weeks of that occurring, which I don't know if this was a good or a bad thing, that like Shane Beasley unfortunately Od'd and he passed away. So I mean to layer that awful, awful situation within the death of a stepparent. Oh my God. I was living with much full time at that. Exactly. I mean that that she she's, she had in her very minimal amount of time on this planet.

27:35 I mean, she had been through more than anyone should. Oh, that's. That's just let alone a child should. Yeah. I feel for Kerry in this, too. I mean, she's lost a child. She's then lost her partner. Yeah, whether or not that relationship was good or bad is kind of irrelevant because just having that loss and that trauma in your life, Yeah. Just awful. Kerry did move on pretty pretty quickly though. She met a man by the name of Steve Ludlow. Yeah, in mid 1990s. So he died in Feb. Yeah, of 1990, as in Shane died in Feb.

28:13 She was then living with Steve by mid 1990. Yeah, and they actually decided to all move to a house in Rosebud together. Which I think is where his parents lived as well in the area. So they then had, yeah. Some. Some family in law to a close by to just to help out and stuff too. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that kind of brings us to how the family came to be in Rosebud. Yeah. So Cherie moved to Rose or started at Rosebud Primary School then? Yeah, so I think she actually did a prep year at a different school, I think Morning Summer in Mornington.

28:47 Yeah. And then Rosebud, she moved here for Grade 1, so. Yeah. So she'd been there for six months. Yeah. Yeah. At the time, yeah. OK. Yeah. All right. We'll leave Cherie's story there for now. We're now going to talk about the man who murdered her, and we'll get to the way that came about in a minute. But we'll go into some of his back story because I found research is so fascinating. So, so fascinating. Yeah. So she was, well, kidnapped, raped and murdered by a man by the name of Robert Arthur Selby Lowe.

29:24 And as we said before, not that Rob Lowe. At all. Oh my God. Speaking of swoony, Oh my God. Saint Elmo's. Fire. Oh yeah. But yeah, this guy is no Rob Lowe. Oh God no, he's the biggest. That's why I he's going to be Robert Lowe during talking about this. Oh yeah. Robert Lowe, Yeah, Yeah, Robert Lowe. There is no mistake in him for. No, Lowe suits him. Low, low, low. As low as they go. Yeah, as low as they go. Robert Lowe was born in England to in the 191937 he was born he was the middle child to a fairly well to do wealthy family.

30:07 Very much so. Yes. So the reason he has the name Selby in his name is due to his mother. His mother's maiden name was Selby. And that's kind of where the not all, but a fairly good portion of the wealth etcetera comes from the connections, probably more so than even the money side of it. Yeah, there's. So with the Selby name comes lots and lots of high level interesting people. So and when one of these in particular people that stands out that what comes along was there was who was named as Robert's godfather, who and I got his name written down somewhere, but he was, he ended up being sorry, he was Uncle Ronnie.

30:49 He was known as Ronnie Selby, right? He was a clergyman. He'd been in the war and I think he's been two wars. But he. Yeah, he served into. Both world wars, so he he, but he did eventually become then the chaplain to the Queen of England. So I mean pretty connected and you know. Up there and very well respected family. Yeah, certainly. However, there was, I know I've look, I don't, I don't. I couldn't find actual evidence of this, but there's been talk of potentially this man may have not done the right thing.

31:21 No, So you're right, there is nothing out there to say. And I think he, I think people would want or wanted Robert to maybe confess or, or or give reason or, I don't know, just tell his story. They were hoping he would do that before he lost, before he died, and that this would all come out. But it didn't. No, the inference is that Uncle Ronnie molested him. Yeah. From when he was a very young child. He, by all accounts, Uncle Ronnie did take a particular shining to Robert in particular. So as you said, Robert was the middle of three brothers.

32:05 There was Graham, then Robert, then Rick. And Graham was an incredibly accomplished person. Yeah. And is to this day, yeah, I actually don't know if he's. No, he's he's not alive anymore. No, he died in back. In fact, they all died. All three brothers died within a fairly short space of each. Other I knew Rick and Robert died in the same year. Yeah, well, then I think only weeks after, sorry, Graham died, maybe weeks after Robert. Like it was that, Yeah. OK, but he was, he was like the golden haired child.

32:38 He could do no wrong. He was very sporty. He was incredibly academic, he was very handsome. Everyone liked him, everyone wanted to be him, wanted to be friends with him and he really used the connections of his family to to go all the way. You know, he really took advantage of that because not only was the mum part of this sort of Selby family, which is obviously very, very well regarded in Britain, but the dad, whose name was Eric, he was also, he, his family owned a department store and so they were very wealthy.

33:15 So his side of things brought a lot of wealth to this family unit. So they were very well to do and wanted for nothing. It it's very interesting. I think their mum was a very interesting. Person. Yes, very interesting. My dad, Eric went to, went to war and he was like a, oh, what was he in the war? He held some kind of officer kind of position. I think he was quite high up in. Yeah, again, his connections and things like that. Yeah, that's it. Yeah, that's it. Yeah, but mom sent the boys all off to boarding school at about 8 years of age.

33:56 Oh, no. Younger. Younger, Yeah, younger. Yeah, OK. So she sent them off Young. What? OK, I'm just gonna say what everyone thinks happens. He she has met this bloke who's a doctor. Yep. While Eric's off at war. It was fairly well known that she was having this affair whilst he was off at war. Yep, although she denied it. Yeah, but it can. And then can. I mean, people know and so they were carrying on and he was like the surgeon general of. He was, he was, he was like the police. Doctor, that's it, Yes.

34:31 Like, yes, he was like, so that's why he didn't have to go off to war. Yeah. So they're back here having, you know, friendly, fun times. And Eric comes back from war. Yeah. And literally was it like 2 weeks later he dies under very suspicious circumstances. Supposedly as from a brain tumour. Well, that was what was. That was what was on the death certificate, which. Was his guest death? Certificate. Bye. Yeah. So the her her lover was the doctor that did like the autopsy and signed off on the death certificate.

35:04 There's an inference here that potentially he she offed him. Oh, they offed him like, you know, and that they were both in this. And then so with that information, so at 8 years of age, there's Paul. At this point, I would say Paul, Paul Robert off at boarding school at the age of 8, who's so he's in class and he gets called into the principal's office. Mind you, this principal had also been diddling with him as well, which just holy crap. I mean, it goes into that whole boarding school anyway. Yuck yuck kids.

35:37 So the 8 year old gets brought into the office with the principal who says to him so your father has just died, take your moment and go off. You go back to class, I mean, could you get more British, you know, like a could you get? More fucked up, like, I mean, you know what? You know what that actually reminds me of? Have you like, have you read Harry, Prince Harry's memoir? I haven't OK, he talks about the moment that he got told that Diana had died, right? And like, OK, Prince Charles at the time, he came into their room and told them.

36:15 But then they were kind of like left to their left to themselves. And I'm like, fuck me. That would be the most horrific. And as a child, like, I just oh, my God, you know, no, how do you even process that? Let alone him, him, them being told, OK, you need to go back to class now. Like it like it was nothing like you. I don't know. This poor 8 year old, he's finally got his dad, dad back from war and then he's dead. Like you're supposed to, I don't know, like, oh God. But so yeah, he's gone back to class after hearing this and he's been told to carry on.

36:51 But this information around his dad, his dad's death and the fact that potentially his mum and partner had something to do with it was a little bit under the. It was, it was around, it was no known kind of thing that this apparently really ate away at him that he, he became very, very distrusting of police because he believed they were also involved in this cover up. Which we, yeah, to a point where he actually ran over a police officer at one stage when he was in his early teens. So these this became a behaviour issue then from this point on, from when he found when this developed and yeah, he was quite the troubled teen and he ran over a police officer which he kind of dodged then because of his connections of getting any conviction, that was all that stopped him.

37:39 From six months of community service. It was something wasn't it wasn't community service. What did he get? Oh my God. There was there was very minor consequence. Minor. Minor though it. Was part of his. Yeah, part of it. There was a deal of what he had to do. Yeah. Oh my God, where did I write that down? Sorry, I didn't mean to attract. Your train of thought, No, no. But, yeah, So I, I just feel like all of that unresolved trauma of this kid, like, OK, I, I, I get that, you know, his brothers experienced the same trauma.

38:10 They didn't then go on to perpetrate anything quite like he did. But you've just got to think like this was that this was that event that started this whole thing in motion, really. Oh. Yeah, I mean, not only that, his sexual assaults as well, like. This is the he had. So much trauma in his childhood that was completely unresolved. Yeah. Never dealt with. He never got help for any of it. And, and we will be discussing soon what ended up coming of it. And it's, I mean, I feel like there's a systemic failure here.

38:42 These people don't come from nowhere. I guess what you know, like they're not just, you know, born to become this, be this and they, you know, are on this planet. There is there are things that happen to these people that create them. I guess what we're trying to say is there's ways of stopping these people to become like this. I guess like we as a society have, you know, some there's things that are to be answered in terms of stepping into these and stopping it from work before it gets to a point of where a child is being murdered.

39:08 Yeah, but he did what he did and he's. Yeah, also a fucking piece of shit. Absolutely. But yeah, there's been other pieces of shit in his life, yeah as well. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. There was definitely consequences to that that, but I cannot think. Anyway, it's fine. If we come across it, we'll come back. To yeah, yeah, yeah. Look, it wasn't. It wasn't in any way measurable to the crime. Like, he definitely got off easy. Yes, they basically then decided as a family, I think it was because, I mean, there was definitely suspicion that, you know, some shady shit had gone down here.

39:43 And as a family, they decided to move to New Zealand. Yeah. Well, he'd already been in trouble obviously with the law in terms of that of what we were just discussed. But also there already started being some other incidences of him flashing himself at people. So I think to. Yeah, that. Was when he was at boarding school I believe. Yeah, it started pretty young, Yeah, yeah. But there was all sorts of behaviours from him that were escalating already, like, yeah. So they were they. The idea was to move to New Zealand.

40:10 I think to really like go right, Let's separate ourselves from what's going on here. I think it's more the mum and now new stepdad that was like, fuck, well, everyone thinks we killed this guy, so let's get the fuck out of here when no one knows us. Yeah. And, you know, he thinks that we're all just one big happy family. Although so they did move to Wellington in New Zealand and the. What's the surgeon bloke's name? I. Currently. Oh, I didn't actually read it. He bought a practice in Wellington and established AGP type practice there and when they moved over, Robert actually moved into a boarding house in Wellington, so still close to his mum and dad, Mum and stepdad, but didn't live with them.

40:54 Now he started to get into a fuck load of trouble pretty much from as soon as they landed there. Yeah. He would loiter around the women's toilets. Yeah, and toilet blocks. He would expose himself, fondle himself in front of women. He would just look at them and put his hands down his pants and have a people. Play around consistently being pulled into police stations and being questioned over things and interviewed. And he was convicted in 90. Sorry, not in 1961 and again in 1964. Yeah, he was. Yeah, for various things, but I mean in between.

41:30 Those decent exposure. So he then he progressed from sort of fondling himself to then exposing himself to, yeah, women and actually to boys too. Yes, it wasn't just women and young girls, it was actually to boys as well. He. He's had six months in jail from about six months 22. So like, that obviously didn't deter him because like a couple of years later, he's back convicted of doing the exact same thing. Yeah, He also got into a bit of petty theft around that time as well. So he was starting to steal things and just a real fucking degenerate.

42:02 Yeah, and lying. His lying was getting really out of hand. Yeah, he was embarrassing the family because, I mean, you know, the stepdad is this now prominent GP in the area. Yeah. And owned the medical practice. It was, you know, a fairly small community and it got out obviously that he was convicted and all this stuff. So they actually shipped him off to Melbourne in 1967. Yeah. They didn't want to borrow of it many more. They just wanted him to fuck off and get away. Yeah. And so he lived again.

42:31 He came to Melbourne, lived in boarding houses. He lived like a bit of a like a semi pneumatic kind of lifestyle. He really didn't have a base and he was just a weird fucking bloke. But he also around, well, I think religion was always in the background of their lives, given the connection with the mom. Yeah, but once he moved to Melbourne, he really started to get back into his religion and he around this time he met. So he decided to join a church and he went and I believe the day that he joined this church was Christmas Day.

43:11 Is that right? Or the first, the first thing he went to was on Christmas Day, this church and at at this function he met his then well soon to be wife. Yeah. She was a young, what was her name? Jennifer. Lorraine. Lorraine. Oh my. God, where did I get Jennifer from? I just had a total mental blank. Then he met Lorraine. Now, Lorraine was a very naive naive. She doesn't even cover it. Yeah. She, she admits, fully admits herself, she LED an incredibly sheltered life. Yeah, she so much so that she was in a very devout sect of this Christian.

43:49 Exclusive Brethren. Brethren. Yeah, and so much so that her parents would not even let them have the blinds to the front of their house open, ever, because that was too worldly. Too much of the. You could. You couldn't. Actually. That was too much. You couldn't see other people, they didn't watch TV, they had no exposure to the outside world. It was very. Amish. Almost. Yes, I think style describes it like that. Yeah, it's very, very old and daytime like kind of you keep to yourself. You don't go out into the world like it's Yeah, they were very much, they taught, had their their teachings.

44:23 There's nothing outside of that. Yeah. All of their education was done within this. Yeah sect. Yeah. And so. Yeah. So she, she fully admits that she was very naive. Yeah. And. But well, they met when she was I think. 3232, yeah. He was 35. Yeah. And so she wasn't young in in this, in that world of, you know, in that time of sort of, you know, meeting someone, getting married. That actually makes me think like, was she really desperate and. Was she literally it had gone to church that day and had prayed to meet the man of her dreams to just she just wanted to get married.

44:58 That's that's all she wanted in life was just have that and have children. And you know, so she literally that day, I believe, or the following day after, you know, put doing that prayer, then met him, met unfortunately, Robert met Robert. And yeah. So she basically believed that this was God sending him to her. Yeah. And that he was the answer to. Couple of things there. I feel like at 32, given where they were at. Yeah, as in in this sect. And probably most of her friends got married before they were 18.

45:36 She probably would have prayed for that every day for years and years and just this happened to have come and oh, my God, my prayers have been answered. OK. Yeah. I mean, that just goes to show my stance on this stuff, but. But I think, I think that goes to show her mindset at the time. She fully, she fully surrendered to that. Yeah. And the fact that God had given her this man. Yeah. Who is. And now, from everyone's account of him at the time, he was nice, Yeah. He was friendly. He did have an an outward appearance of somewhat normal person, you know.

46:11 Yeah. He could control himself to that level. Yeah. To be, to keep himself together. I mean, he held down a job at, you know, we would change jobs regularly for, for various reasons that we can get to. But yeah, he held a decent job and all those sorts of things. So he's described he'd always get another job easily. Yeah, yeah. I feel like in his line of work as well. So he ended up getting job as like a travelling salesman. And he was bloody good at it, apparently. Apparently so, because he was able to perpetrate all these crimes and also be very successful at his job all at the same time.

46:42 So yes, I think you're right. He. Knock on less doors than you know the other bloke to to earn as much money sort of stuff. He he was good at it. He had the gift of the gab and could. Yeah. Manipulate people, I think. Yeah. And talk his way into being, you know, quite a nice person. Yeah. Make them believe that anyway. Yeah. Because he was. Because people described him as mild mannered and then, yeah, you look at what comes after and you think, fucking hell no, it was definitely a facade. Yeah, yeah, well, and apparently too.

47:12 So they got married in 1972, but just prior to them becoming engaged, he actually broke it off with Lorraine. So I, I feel like he was not really into this, but knew that society kind of, this is what you need to do. So Lorraine was devastated that they were, they were breaking up because I think she had put all of her, you know, eggs in one basket here of like, you know, that this is the man that I'm going to marry now because I've met him and this is how it's got to be. So she was pretty, pretty devastated when he called it off and was, you know, why would you do that?

47:42 And they ended up getting back together. And I believe like within a month of that, they were then engaged. So I mean, kind of wonder what was going through his head. Well, I think he needed a beard. Essentially, he needed. Something he worked out. That OK behind or a marriage in a what would then become a a family yes to hide behind so that he could continue acting on yeah all of. The things he was acting because unbeknownst to Lorraine this whole time, whilst they're dating and everything, all these things he's continuously being pulled into to police stations and being interviewed.

48:14 So and he's spending a considerable amount of his time, as you said, like he's, he's meant to be out doing the sales job. Not only is he finding them time to do these acts, but he's also going to court, going to police interviews regularly. Like he he he was fitting, fitting all of that into his time. Lorraine didn't know that that was going on. And I do believe that. I think he kept it from her entirely. Yeah. He was that good at this. And she was that naive that it could be done. Yeah, she had.

48:44 She didn't realise any of this was going on at that point. Not at that point. So the things that he was doing that were getting in, pulled in was more of this. He would hang around schools and expose himself to students at school gates. Yeah, that was sort of further like as his behavior was escalated. There's one where it was explained that there was 2 girls, I think that they'd gone to the police on this and they were going to charge him. And so the way and they ended up not dropping the charges because what he'd said to the police said, oh, this is a completely like, you know, it's just, Oh, no, no, it was just a joke.

49:16 It didn't actually happen like the girls say it did. I had a banana and I was I was being funny with the banana, right. He's being funny with the banana was that he had it down his speedos, walking around a beach, walking around and asking people to touch the banana in his speedos. Well, that's a sexual assault. The So the. Yeah. So the police misunderstood his statement of saying this is where he used his lie. He lied without lying. Yeah. As in he was telling his truth. Oh. But oh, no, I was just making a joke with a banana.

49:49 And it's been taken out of, like, the wrong way by the girls. And I apologise for that, but that's not actually what was happening. So the cops have gone. Oh, sorry, mate. We'll drop this, you know. Maybe don't put a banana, man. Yeah. Well, he never said yeah. I put the banana down my pants. The girls, what they saw was a man with a banana down his bloody speedos going touch my banana. Oh. What a fucking disgusting piece. Gross. Absolutely gross. Yeah, God. So should we maybe enter here and say like with all these convict or not necessary convictions even, but with all this going on that he was going to court and defending these things, part of that court process, the courts insisted that he would need like reports done on him, like psychological assessments and things.

50:36 So he was sent off to a psycho psychotherapist to have, well for every initially a report done for the court. And the person that he was sent off to was this Margaret Hobbs. So Margaret Hobbs was a, she originally started out as a parole officer and probation officer and then moved into private practice and around the courts. She actually was known as the Queen of the Flashes. Yeah, because that's what she did. That's what she did was that she did these reports on these, you know, rapists, flashes, exhibitionists, you know.

51:07 Yeah, that was her. That was her specialty. Yeah. So, yeah, they they kind of, you know, joked around about it in the courts of like, that's who she was. But, you know, it is what she would do. But I mean, God, I mean, what a heavy, you know, stuff to get into with, with people. So she would literally do these reports for the courts and also do sessions with perpetrators. So she was very highly experienced in this. She. Was very experienced but she had no formal qualifications. What? Yep, I did not know that she.

51:36 Didn't have formal qualifications. I just assumed she, well, she's a psychologist. She said I've done AI don't agree. I don't think so. Everywhere I just read that she was a psychologist. I never looked up. She's a psychotherapist, which isn't a psychologist. You're right, I did read psychotherapist and I just continuously assumed that I never looked up her credentials because she was just. Very, very experienced, yeah. And she was very good at what she did. Yeah. And she was able to rehabilitate a lot of flashes.

52:05 And she was. Can they be? Can they really be? I don't know, but the way whatever her methodology was like, in the eyes of the court, it worked. Oh look, the reports I've read of hers, like I think she was very good at what she did in her analysis of things and she read this guy spot on. Oh yeah. Like she was a very intuitive person. Wow. OK, I. Did not know she didn't have the formal qualifications. Wow. OK, that's interesting. Yeah. So she was known by this sort of term in the courts that he. He went along for his report.

52:38 She wrote a report, went to the court, whatever. And the court came back and said, well, we think you should have ongoing sessions after this. And so that's all he kind of got from that. He got no conviction. It was just, yeah, you should have further therapy. So he started seeing her regularly from the get go. Margaret did not like Arthur. Arthur. I'm Robert. He he just creeped her out. Yeah, she. Like she mentioned. So she wrote most of a book about this. Yeah. And about meeting Robert, you know, in her practice and all of that and everything that came after it.

53:14 Yeah. And she mentions in that book that even though the types of men that she was dealing with, they were bad, they were not nice people, generally speaking, she was always able to find something about them that sort of endeared them to her and that she liked. Yeah. Yeah. She'd never found that with Robert. No, no. So, you know, she was a very obviously very open to finding it if it was there. Yeah. Find it with him. But he was very honest with her. He wasn't he. She had to ask the right questions.

53:45 He then told her he never told anyone. No, but she had to. She had to find ways to do it. Yeah. Yeah, she was. Very. She was clever enough. She. Was very clever to do that she'd word things very carefully and she would ask a question and go and get an answer and go oh don't trust his answer and then would come at it from very varying different angles to actually get to the right the. True. Bottom of it, like, yeah, yeah. Oh, God, like, for example, like I think with this situation, she said, like, do you have a blue car?

54:12 And he said no, no. He. Didn't have a blue car. She said to him, Do you own a blue car? Yeah, yeah. And he said no. So then she said to him, do you drive a blue car? Oh, yes, yeah. My from my, my job, I have AI use the boss's car sometimes and it happens to be a blue car. Yeah, yeah. So that that's just what how she worked out that she'd need to ask from another angle. Yeah, yeah, I know, I know. It's such a. Piece and in his mind, I never lied to you, you just didn't. That's right, asked me the wrong question.

54:43 Well, he didn't lie. I guess he didn't own a blue car. Yeah, no. Oh my God, yes. So shall we go back now to poor Cherie? Yeah. We covered all we need to there. Yeah, OK. Yeah. Yep. So on the day of Cherie's disappearance, I suppose. Yeah, Cherie. Look, I think it's probably also worth saying Cherie was given a lot, a lot of independence. As we were sort of saying that she was old, yeah, she was very independent. Very, very independent. Yeah. And she had a pink bike and a pink bike helmet. And she would ride around the streets of Rosebud with literally no, no tether.

55:26 You know, she would go on her own quite often. One of her teachers remarked. One day she saw Cherie up at the school after after hours. It was actually getting dark. And her teacher said to her, you need to go home. It's nearly dark. This is dangerous. You can't be here. Yeah. And she's like, oh, no, my mom doesn't mind. She just lets me be out until I need to be out. And the teacher was like, no, no, you need to go home. This is really unsafe. You have to go home now. Yeah. You know, So there wasn't a lot of checks and balances there going on for Cherie.

55:54 She. She certainly did her own thing on this particular day. I think she was quite bored. And so she was looking for things to do. She'd gone for a bike ride up to at the local mini golf to see if it was open because she wanted to have a quick round of mini golf. Can you ever imagine a six year old doing that? Like just go, I'll get on my bike off my go, go and play mini golf and then I'll, I don't know. What I think this is also says speaks to how well she was known around the neighborhood though for this, because I, I can't imagine a six year old coming up to the counter and saying one please.

56:24 Yeah. And like, and then just going, Oh yeah, sure. Like to me you'd go, where's your mum and dad? Like, you know. Apparently she was known to everyone as the, the, the kid on the pink bike. She was out and people did kind of keep an eye out for her because I think they knew that she wasn't necessarily always being watched by a parental figure. Yeah. So anyway, she's, you know, gone to the golf, mini golf. It's shot. She's gone back home. She's gotten a bit bored and restless there. She's gone for a bike ride.

56:54 She's come back home. And then her mum says to her, can you go down to the milk bar? So like the local corner store And by me. I've written down what she asked for because it actually reminded me of my childhood. Yeah, it was a a pasty and milk, I think, and something else. Something else and then a packet of cigarettes. Yeah, now I've got a very good story about this. Just a personal anecdote. When we were kids, my mum used to pull up. My mum and dad smoked when we were younger and we used mum would pull up to the milk bar give us however much a packet of cigarettes cost in the 80s.

57:31 05 bucks if that now and 30. She'd be like, can you go in and get me a packet of the PJ super mild, the Peter Jackson Super Mild. If they if they ask anything just tell them I'll wave. So yeah. So we'd go in and be like, oh, can we please have a packet of the Peter Jackson Super Mild? And they'd be like, yeah, where's your mum? Oh, she's out in the car over there, mum. And waves. And that's just waves they. Would sell us the. Cigarettes. Oh my God. Well, that's crazy. You just like. That never happened.

58:05 I mean, not many people smoke these days, or not many people in my In fact, I don't actually know anyone who smokes. I know some people who vape. Yeah, vaping is grossed. Yeah, totally. So anyway, so yes, I can totally imagine this would happen that yeah, I mean Cherie and I were born in the same year her mum and my mum wanted us to grab her some cigarettes so sent her down the milk bar to do that errand. And Kerry says she just wishes she had of known that that was the last time she was going to see Cherie.

58:33 Because what we know happened is Sheree's ridden her bike or not quite gotten to the Milk Bar. So the next thing we sort of know in all of this is that her bike's out the front or not far from the Milk Bar. It's actually near a phone box and Sheree's nowhere to be found. Now, a neighbor who used to keep a pretty keen eye on Sheree recognized that her bike was there and that Cherie wasn't, and that was really unusual. And so she actually went and knocked on Kerry's door and was like, I've just seen Cherie's bike.

59:08 I can't see her anywhere around, you know, You know, it really raised alarm bells with her. And then Kerry immediately called the police. She's like, that's not right. I've sent her. She should have been back because I think Kerry had actually said to Steven. He went out and looked. Yeah, because she wasn't back in the 15 minutes they thought she'd be back in, or 10 minutes they thought she'd be back in and so she was starting to get worried. Then obviously this neighbor has found the bike, gone to her, and then Kerry's called the police, right?

59:36 So. So in that so the police when they arrive on the scene and they they knew a little bit about this family. Well, they. 'D been. They'd been, they'd been. They were known to the police. Yeah, so they made it like has something, you know, to test out the family to see if they knew something more than they were letting on, like so because obviously when children go missing. First thought is maybe someone known to her. Yeah. So to test this out, the police actually on that first day, they actually put a little bug in the house and they left them with a form to fill out and said to them, oh, there's a compensation for crime form to fill out, see you later.

1:00:17 And I've left and look the part. The family passed with flying colours in terms of whether they had any involvement because they were furious with the police for doing this and not knowing what they had done entirely. But saying like they they are on this recording of just saying how dare they like, you know, give us this form to that we don't want money, we want we want her. Why are they not looking for her? Yeah, why they've gone to this, Why would they give us this? Like, you know, so exactly how they should have responded to that form and they had how the police, you know, we expect someone to yeah, in that moment.

1:00:48 So they they had done an asshole act, but no. Well, they they needed, I guess they needed to wait to eliminate. Eliminate so that eliminated they knew they weren't looking at anyone internally to The Who had been at the house that day of doing something wrong. So that was that they they knew immediately then they were really looking for a missing child. I think they also very around that like very early on, I'm talking in the first hour hours of being notified, they also looked to her birth father and the birth father's family and they were very quickly alibi and completely eliminated like they know that they were not.

1:01:20 Suspects at all? Yeah. Yeah. So that was that was they were very good at, I think as much as it sounds like an asshole thing to do, as I say, but like it eliminated all those family people so they could actually concentrate on the real crime at hand. So I do think that that was OK to do that as much as it would have been hurtful. Yeah. So they've got onto this very quickly. So obviously get out, got out to media as well very quickly that this little girl was missing. So. Oh God, I. Think it went on the news that night.

1:01:47 So she went missing somewhere around 1:40 PM Yeah. And it was on the 5:00 news that night. They were, they put like a just a little bulletin out. Yeah. By the next day they actually had Kerry basically making a plea on live on the news. Yeah. For any information, anybody who's got who's got Cherie to please just keep her safe and just drop her at the nearest police station. Your questions will be asked. Sort of things. Yeah. Yeah. That look, the police acted very, very swiftly, did all of the right things very early on.

1:02:21 Although there was 1 little bit of information that was miscommunicated somewhere along the line because it did stop people from coming forward sooner. Unfortunately there was a miscommunication of the helmet. So people the way that it was portrayed on the media was as if her bike and her helmet had been found together and to the side of the road. So therefore some people who actually did say something saw a child who looked distressed in a car, in a blue car, but the child was wearing a pink helmet.

1:02:54 So they sort of put it to the side, which I don't think I would have. I think I would have said something. But no, they they were like, oh, no, it can't be her because her, her helmet was already found. So. This actually gets as well these people get me because. So they say. So this was the mum and daughter, wasn't it? And the daughter was playing out the front with some friends and they saw her. So this was Sue Marks was the mum's name. Yeah. And Danielle was the daughter's name. She, what she says is that she saw, well, what we now know was Cherie in the car, distressed.

1:03:28 Her face was up against the window. It looked like she was kneeling in the front seat. Yeah, distraught. And when she saw Sue, she actually said help. Help. Yeah. And Sue didn't. They didn't call the police. Well, she, yeah, she basically thought, oh, I think she's in the car with like a grandfather now. We've all been there, like with a kid who's, you know, cracked it for whatever reason. I'm like. I put myself in her shoes. Especially then when something came on the news that night of a little girl who was riding a bike.

1:03:58 Yep. And this. And what little girl wears a helmet while she's in the car? Exactly. I just. I think enough of it would have come together to go. Oh, I have to say something. Yeah. I'd rather be wrong. Yep. I'd rather be wrong. Yep. Oh, yeah. I do find that interesting. And then also like I feel like I would take down the number plate if I saw yeah, I'd take no, I'd take the mental mode down or the type, the make and model of the car, something because that to me that seems so SUS. Yes. And if you see something, say something.

1:04:27 You'll see that get yeah, 'cause she's. They're not the only one. There was another witness that came forward. He was a young boy though. The other. Witness No, There was a woman who came forward as well. Oh what? What was her account? So she didn't come forward until 1993. Oh, God, yeah. And the way she came forward was that she was just happened to be at a bingo game, right? And sitting next to a police officer's wife, right. And something came up within that context that she was like, oh, yeah, I once saw this and saw a little girl in a car.

1:04:59 And like, she goes, I think you need to speak to my husband. Like you need to go to the police station and, and you know, contact him and, and have a chat. Was she the one who still saw the Wheel of Cherise? That's that's another one. Another one, Yeah, yeah. No, because at least they came forward relatively quickly. But this one took her years to come forward and and only because she was pushed by a police officer's wife who said, you know, no, you need to speak up. And she had a very detailed description.

1:05:26 She was able to give a comfit picture that matched Robert Lowe to the to the dot, which is why they actually ended up being able to go and charge him. Wow. Yeah. Oh my God. But she she was only pushed at the last minute of like in that in the years later to like do that. So I just don't know how people can hang on to this information and not come forward crazy. But yeah, so the, and there were more other witnesses on the day and now this one breaks me a little bit. They, they were the one, they actually found her bike on the middle of the road.

1:06:02 So when the neighbor found the bike, it was up against like a tree or. Something it was up against a phone box. Yeah, phone box. Yeah. So, but what had actually happened was someone has been a parent had been driving, a woman had been driving down the road and the bike was like on the road. So she stopped, grabbed the bike and obviously you know, kids playing, this has happened and she's pulled the bike and put it against the phone booth. In recalling that later, they both know saw this who were in the car that day.

1:06:31 They realized that when they got there, the bike front wheel on the bike was still rolling, was still moving, which suggests that it was only seconds from her exiting from that bike and the bike falling over and that wheel spinning and and leaving and her coming along. So if they had driven along like a minute earlier, potentially they could, they would have seen the event of her at least being dragged into a car to then maybe intervene, at least call the cops and then and there. Yeah. Who knows, but that's that's awful.

1:07:06 Horrible. Yeah. But yeah, there's. So there's another one more witness which we can get into then of. The little boy, The little boy. So her schoolmate actually, yeah. So he obviously recognised Cherie for being Cherie. And he actually saw this man take physically pick her up off her bike and shove like. The two of them have been playing together. Yeah, he used the word. He wasn't shoved in the car. It was like such a, the way he described him, like like forced her in the car, like it was completely against her will.

1:07:42 But I mean, the trauma for that little boy, he didn't really know what he'd just seen. No, it was awful that he so the poor kid. He'd done the wrong thing and he was meant to be at home for the day and so he didn't come forward and he didn't say anything. He thought he'd get into. Trouble. He'd get into trouble for not being at home where he was supposed to be. But I can imagine Cherie probably went around and she was like, come on, we're going for a bike ride, get out, let's go, let's go. So the cops had done the right thing, which was great.

1:08:08 They, they'd actually gone to the primary school and had a chat to the kids, you know, and said, you know, anyone's seen Cherie on the day, you know, around the neighborhood. And it was actually the oldest sibling of this little boy who came forward to the police and said to them, look, my little brother said he saw Cheree on that day, and they're all. And so when they first approached him, he was like, Nope, I don't know anything. Nope, Nope, Nope. And then eventually they got out out of him that.

1:08:30 Yeah, he had seen Cheree. Yeah. We'll talk to your mum and dad, you won't be in trouble. Yeah. And he then was able to give a description of the fact that. Yeah, it was a blue car, an older man. He gave a, you know, a decent enough description for them to be able to put a few things together. Yeah. Of what had occurred. Yeah. So, you know, unfortunately he obviously took it took time to get to him and find him as a witness as well. So that all those things, I mean not, I mean I don't know other than maybe them being able to intercept the actual event of him taking him, taking her.

1:08:58 I feel like for me the biggest one is the mum and daughter who saw her in the car. But even at that point, even like, I don't know how. But if they had have called 000 and said I've just seen a distressed kid in a car, yeah, this is the number plate. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. You don't. Think he would have done what he did? Well, we don't really know the exact timeline of it, do we? I think it, I don't know, I think it was quick. It was pretty quick. I mean, it happened that day.

1:09:24 So this all took place on the 29th of June in 1990. One, he was home, he he very much later he confessed to being home by about 4430. I think so. Yeah, yeah, around that. So it it and this happened. He kidnapped her at 1:40. So within three hours he'd done what he. Did. Do we want to get into that or? I mean, I think we mentioned before that she was raped. Yeah. And murdered when? So her body was found. How many days? Oh, it was a long time. It was. Actually. It was September 24th, yes. It was months later when her body was found very very advanced state of decomposition.

1:10:02 She was found in a drain, in a storm water drain by some people who would going horseback riding and she was in such a terrible state of decomposition that she wasn't visually identifiable. It took them a lot to try and actually identify her through DNA, and it also meant that they were unable to get an actual cause of death, so they weren't able to conduct an autopsy because there wasn't enough of her remains to be able to do that. He disposed of her body in a most horrific way. The the stormwater drain pipe was only 30 centimetres in diameter.

1:10:44 So I mean she was a small child but still, to put her in there horrific is absolutely disgusting. She was unclothed from the waist below. She was just wearing a singlet and AT shirt but they did find the other clothes because when she went missing she was wearing a purple tracksuit and some black runners and they did find I believe part of the purple tracksuit. Because a lot of his, a lot of he did dispose of much of her clothing because it had semen, et cetera all over it. They never found her underwear, and I believe they never found the pant bottoms.

1:11:20 Yeah, I don't think they found her shoes either. I don't remember reading that there were. Shoes being found tonight. Yeah, so. But there was enough clothing around her to kind of suggest that the the remains that they found did belong to her. Yeah. Took them a while to then forensically identify her, but it was eventually found that it was the remains of poor little Cherie. Yeah, so while all this is going on of them trying to find her etcetera, obviously the police are working incredibly hard at trying to identify suspects.

1:11:52 Yeah, you just gave me a horrific stat just before we started, which blows my mind. But, and obviously the police probably checked out all of that. I I believe so. So what what I was saying to you is in the 20 kilometer radius of where she lived, there was something like 450 known sex offenders. I believe they narrowed it down to 40 that they really looked into. I'm not quite sure how they narrowed it down. I'm not sure, but they fully very, sort of, very much looked into forty of those people. The You just don't know who you live next door to.

1:12:30 You really don't. And I mean, I know over the years people have, you know, tried to push for these sorts of lists to be made public. I understand why they're not. But I also think, fuck you, they should be. Oh, you have no rights if you're doing that to a child. Like no. No gross. No, no, no. Yeah. So in amongst all of this, obviously in Robert Lowe's life, he was still attending. Well, he had actually had a had a break from seeing Margaret and he hadn't been seeing her for a while. Because she'd start to call him on stuff.

1:13:03 He didn't like that, so he'd retreat. Retreat. But he all of a sudden appeared again at her door at this time. Can I say just really quickly, the day that that Cherie went missing, there was a radio bulletin put out. And yeah, Margaret was actually driving at the time and she heard this radio announcement about there's a missing girl in the Rosebud area. If anyone knows something, please call the police. And her immediate thought when she heard that, oh, that's Robert. Robert's done that. Because she knew that Robert Lowe had a holiday home in Rosebud.

1:13:33 Yeah. So I guess we should say the area of Rosebud on the peninsula there. It's especially back in the early 90s. I mean, not a hell of a lot of people lived in Rosebud. You were. It was. It was a holiday town. Now it's farm walks. Yeah. Yeah. But it's well known for being, you know, very sleepy, you know, coastal town. Especially in June in the middle of winter. Absolutely. So the the population in that that Boynton Peninsula area, like Drupals over summer sort of stuff. It's insane even to this day, but more so even back then.

1:14:03 So during June, I mean, her local primary school would have been a very small primary school. There probably was only one grade per year level, dare say. Yeah, well, it's not an overly populated area in that sense. It's overpopulated in summer, but not in June. Yeah, no, so, but yeah. So he had a holiday house down in in Rosebud. So that kind of, I think really red flag for her of like a connection between the two just location wise. Yeah. But also then the MO of what? Had he actually lived in Glen Waverley with his family?

1:14:35 So it's about an hour from Rosebud, just so you've got a bit of context in terms of timings and space. Yeah, so she connected already on it in that sense. And then the next thing he does turn up to her office to start some start sessions again. And he started saying a few things that she was like, whoa, you're hinting at something. So she started asking questions about like, because I'd already released in the media what colour the car was and all those sorts of things. So she did ask him questions around the car, like we mentioned earlier, you know, and the, the so the fact that he was driving around in a blue Corolla hatchback, you know, and went to rent, went to Rosebud.

1:15:17 He did deny going to Rosebud to her originally. On that day, Yep. But then later on it something else came up that where he did say that he did go to Rosebud to do some tiling. And so he this is where his lies. Would you know? He would say things, but then it would come out later when she'd ask different questions. Yeah. And get the truth. Yeah. So she started making a few connections in her sessions and look, we can get into later in terms of the actual legality of this, but confidentiality and things like that.

1:15:41 She she was hesitant to speak to people about what she was thinking, so she decided to anonymously ring, you know. Christ stoppers. Yep. And let, and so she did ring and say, look, I, I know that there's a man in therapy, you know, through through my contacts that he's this is how what's present he's presenting with, you know, maybe you should look into and. He's escalating. He's. Escalating all these things. So as this is progressing and the police are looking into, you know, different suspects and his name is pinging also on lists elsewhere.

1:16:14 And also then from a Crime Stoppers report, they're going, oh, hang on a second, we've got a report on that with that name mentioned. Putting the two together, they decide to go and speak to Margaret. So the police have a chat with her and she's like, I do think that he potentially is a suspect here at very least. And unbeknownst to her at that time, they start bugging her. Yeah, her room, her office, so that when she has her meetings with him, they could hear what's going on. They also at this time start to surveil him.

1:16:45 So he's quite heavily under surveillance because they do believe he would potentially strike again. Yes, which I think good job. Fucking. He should have probably been on the well before, but yeah, so between the two of the, you know, the sessions being recorded and the surveillance, they're getting snippets, they're getting small bits of information on him and building a case. It was a very slow going though. Because he played games like he was just fucked. Yeah, fucked. Absolutely. Well, he would like as one of the things that Margaret really spoke about was the fact that he he enjoyed watching her reaction to things.

1:17:23 So sometimes you have to be a little bit careful of is he just trying to get a reaction out of me or is this truth, you know? So as you say, the games he would play and that she would have to sit there and listen to some of these most God awful things that he you know, and show empathy somehow to this person so that she could have a therapeutical impact on that just blows my mind to try and be like that with somebody who absolutely repulses you to your core. Yeah, but on outwardly not show that you are reacting to.

1:17:52 Their disgusting behaviour. My face. No, my face will say everything like, yeah, I'll be vomiting in her office. I think he's just gross. Yeah, but at a point, the police do confess to her that they are recording the sessions, and she then is knowledgeable to it to at a point as well. He also then eventually gets to a point where he says he wants to take her and but they go down and do a trip down to Rosebud because that might jog his memory. But this was, again, it was all part of his game of like, you know, revealing it all to her.

1:18:25 I think it was. He's really screwed up. Yeah. So they ended up wiring her up for this trip down to Rosebud. This occurred not long after I believe they found her body I think or. Yeah, it was. No, it was. I think it was in that week. Yeah, because he was on maybe maybe if I, yeah, he sort of says I'll I might remember more if I hit if I go into the area. So they, they police and and Margaret sort of do team up. So she is wired up for us and they do follow them and the unbeknownst to him and they do because she.

1:18:57 Was worried for her own safety. So the police, oh, you would be. She's like, I'm getting in a car with someone who I think has murdered a child. Like you know what could happen to me so. If you do just say the wrong thing, that snaps him one way like, and all of a sudden he goes, wait, you know too much. Yeah. Oh yeah. God, yuck. Yeah, Yeah. So what he tries to say at this point, though, is what happened is that he yeah, he did get her to come into the car, and he admits to that and pulled her in.

1:19:27 But what he says is that as they're driving along, Cherie started to have, like, a bit of a panic attack because she didn't want to be there. And in her panic attack, she choked, She caught. She was caught and died. Just just absolute utter bullshit. And somehow he thought that people would believe that story. So because then he was like, he actually said to Margaret at one point, like, or if I did go to the police and confess this, you know, like, what would be my likely outcome from that? And she said to him, like, oh, you know, it'd be manslaughter, not murder because like, you know, you didn't, you didn't actually kill her.

1:20:05 I mean, so she was, you know, very well. I faded like go along with this shit. Yeah. But, yeah, I mean, God, there's no way that actually happened that he thought people would believe. That just blows my mind. I know. Yeah, but they had to go along with him doing this whole, you know, Yeah, yeah, yeah. Panic attack killed her. Yeah. Yeah. You still kidnapped the little girl, by the way. Yeah. Anyway, Yeah. So this is the line he's taking the whole time. And yeah, but they she take, he ends up pinpointing exactly where this spot is, where the body was found, which was not released to the public.

1:20:36 It was a general area. He took her straight to where the body was left and said awful things. She she to this, after this all occurred, there's people who said they spoke to Margaret along the way and could see her declining in terms of her own mental health, trying to be in the same room as this man. And here the things he was telling her was taking a huge toll on her. So not only is she feeling unsafe, but she's also being told. Horrific. Horrific things that have occurred in this exact space.

1:21:12 I can't even imagine there that what she would have been going through. So that's just awful. But it did help the police's case, Yeah, for sure, at least, yeah. They had all of that on recording, yes and yeah, obviously was then used to arrest him. So he was arrested and charged with the kidnapping and murder of Cherie Beasley. We should say that wasn't until March 1990. Three, yes. It was literally like nearly two whole years later. Yeah. And then I believe the trial didn't start until the October of that year or December of that year.

1:21:49 Yeah. Because it was until 94 that he was sorry, December 94 that he was. Yeah. Actually, also, it was another year again. Yeah, that he was actually convicted. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So just absolutely. Crazy. Probably right? Probably the October the trial probably started. Yeah. So I mean, absolutely horrific. But I mean, I guess thankfully the way that it all panned out meant that so part of the there was a lot of legal argument with regard to using these recordings from Margaret Hobbs because of the fact that, you know, there is this perceived client doctor sort of what do you call it?

1:22:28 What's the word I'm looking for? Confidentiality or privilege, they call it. Yeah. Yeah, so, but the the thing that got it across the line was the fact that Margaret wasn't actually a doctor. Well. Exactly to. Argue in court, Yeah. That they didn't have a privileged relationship. Yeah. Because so he wasn't actually a doctor. No. So the only people that actually this privilege is actually connected to is Catholic priests, medical doctors. And if she was a psychotherapist, which is doctorate, whereas a psychologist, psychiatrist, psychiatrist, sorry, what?

1:23:06 Yeah, psychiatrist can also fall under that category. It's medical, yeah. And yeah, we have to have a hold that doctor state status, whereas A psychologist doesn't, even with or without the qualifications, whatever that throws me. But yeah, psychology, psychologists don't fall into this category. So she is not held to that same level. That's right. So it was more of an so for her here, it was an ethical thing, not a legal issue, but but yeah. So there's no common law that applies privilege to conversations between psychologists and patients when there is emerging view that legal, that illegal activity has occurred.

1:23:42 Yeah. Yeah. So it was, it was able to be thrown out and all that, that recorded stuff was able to be used between the two of them for that reason. Yeah, Yeah. Which is great because that ended in a conviction of the kidnapping and murder of Cherie Beasley, and he was sentenced bloody months later, but sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole. Other huge thing that got him in the end too was so they obviously they arrested him in the March of 93 and he was put into a cell, yes.

1:24:10 I forgot about this, yeah. So he was actually in a cell with a particular person that by the name of Peter Reid. Now there's a couple of Peter Reid's in the crime world, but this one is Reid. Now he was a very, he was actually considered within the top five of the most dangerous people in Australia. He had killed a cop. So very, very bad and not, not locked by police officers at all, at all. So the two of them were in a cell together. Because because they were both, they had to be protected prisoners because they're like 1 was a cop killer and one was a kid killer and rapist, A pedophile.

1:24:52 Yeah. So they had to be in this special unit together. Sorry, go away. Yeah. So they basically in that cell, Robert Lowe started to confess to Peter what he had done. And so Peter Reid had gone to the police and said to him, I'm being told some pretty awful freaking shit over here. And for him to say that. For him to say that, oh, it's next level, like he's the one of the worst of the worst kind of stuff, we need to really push that easily. He was known as real bad, real bad news. Yeah. So the police sort of came together and we're like, well, maybe let's have a listen to what he's got to say.

1:25:26 So they pull him in and have a chat with this Peter Reid. And they're like, yeah, this information that you're giving us is something we want. Would you be willing to go in and wear a wire and and do this? And originally Peter Reid said to them, sure, but I want XYZ. To the police's credit, they said no, mate, no, not going to happen. You're not going to get anything. You know what you'll get out of this? Putting away one of the worst child molesters, child murderers. You will go down in history for doing that.

1:25:58 If you if you want to help us, help us. If you don't fuck off, that's on you right now. The thing was, Peter Reid, he was like, OK, or maybe I'll do this. But he actually said the clincher for him of actually saying yeah and diving, diving and doing this was as he went to walk out of the room, the police officer, just out of natural reaction to situations, he shook his hand. And Peter Reid was, he said that he had never had someone shake his hand who was in a position of authority like that. Oh, wow.

1:26:32 Particularly not a police officer. Yeah, right. Especially. Given what he was in prison for. So he saw that as the biggest sign of respect, the fact that this man shook his hand. And he took it from that moment on that he was determined that he would get this guy and. He did and he did. So he went in first into the cell and he was this. So Peter Reid's a very intelligent man, very manipulative man, but so is Robert Lowe. So they went into the cell and he decided to go about this in a way which I thought was quite smart.

1:27:07 He took the tact of saying to Robert Lowe that he knew a crooked lawyer who could help him out. But he would the the lawyer would need to know the facts so that then he could be able to come up with a story that would include factual information to better get over the line, to better get you out of this and get, you know, get you out of a conviction, which makes sense. Yeah. Kind of, you know. Yeah. So Robert Lowe started spilling his guts. He told him everything. And Peter Reid actually also drew, he was actually an architectural draftsman.

1:27:42 He'd been trained as. And so he drew all these maps and things and drew pictures of of the all this stuff of what he was even being told. So not only has he got the recordings, he's got. Visual aids and visual. Aids to all this so they they they anyway they come away from that and the cops are like this is great however you did too much talking so they really found that because with this they needed it to just come from. So I think what they they worried about was that Peter Reid was, like, leading the conversation.

1:28:10 And because he was, I guess, seen as being quite a powerful figure in terms of the prison hierarchy, they wanted to make sure that Robert wasn't just being coerced saying it yes, or saying it to make him look good in front of Reid's eyes, you know, basically. So yeah, they needed to get him to go back in and try again. Try and try again. He actually ended up having to in the in the end, he did three different separate recordings of this, and by the third one they'd got there. Yeah, they were like, OK, cool, this is this is what we need.

1:28:39 And they were only used bits from all of them but. Yeah, yeah, they were. But what they also had to go with that too, was CCTV from the actual prison. Yeah. Which showed how comfortable Robert Lowe was was when he was talking. It wasn't as if he did have someone standing over him to do this. Yeah. So, yeah, between all of that, the information was great. So then Peter Reed had to go into the court and for the very first time he sat in the witness box and to give his evidence. And it like, obviously the defence lawyer for Robert Lowe, he took this as a, you know, I'm gonna eat this guy up.

1:29:12 And he tried to push buttons with him and he did push buttons with him and got him to fire up because he had a very short temper. But they finally got that all calmed down and spoke to Peter Reid and said to him, you're gonna fuck this up, mate. You're gonna have to calm it. Yeah, keep it calm and do tell, tell it out how it is. And he did a very good job. And so that was really one of the the that along with obviously what Margaret Robs, Margaret Hobbs was able to put forward, really put the nail in the coffin.

1:29:38 For. Absolutely. I also feel like so, Lorraine testified. So they were. So he's Robert's wife, estranged wife. They were no longer together once she found out exactly what had happened. Yeah. And, and she also testified, and I found her testimony quite interesting because her statement originally was, and this was because this is what Robert told her to say or to do. Was that, well, he'd actually instilled in her a real distrust of the police. Yes. So given her upbringing, she didn't have any interaction with the police.

1:30:12 It's not like she had, you know, the police officer visit the local primary school and you know that they're a safe person to go to. None of that. So because he'd had so many little run insurance with the police over the time he was like, the police are out to get me. Don't ever talk to them. They, they, they've, I don't know what's going on, but they've got got it in for me. Don't ever say anything to you also. Convinced her that having small run insurance with the law was. Normal. Yeah, like everyone has a run in with the law.

1:30:39 No, no, no. So, yeah. So she just thought, OK, yeah, the police had to get him. And I mean, she was so naive. Yeah. So on. When they started asking about her, when they interviewed her in relation to Cherie's disappearance after they after they'd arrested Robert, she was like, no, he was home that day. Anyway, upon reflection, many, many months later, what she realized was she was actually out all day at a tennis tournament with their sons. We haven't even said that, but they had two sons and she was at a tennis tournament with them all day.

1:31:14 She got home and she was starting to make dinner, which is how she knows. He got home at about 5:00 or whatever time it was 4:45, and she said the weirdest thing happened. He immediately went, took off his clothes, had a shower and went and put on a load of washing, something he had never done in the 19 years of their marriage to that point, No. And she said to him, what are you like, why are you doing that? What are you doing? And he's like, oh, I need some casual clothes for tomorrow. And she's like, he had plenty of clothes, Like, yeah, no.

1:31:46 Yeah, so she also did leave Robert in the midst of this. So I think it was it was fairly early on in after like so I think maybe 92 ish or something like that. She did leave him. Yeah. So between that time and when he was arrested, he had nowhere to live in the end. He was dumpster diving for food and living in like, a halfway house kind of situation in like, Gray St. St. Kilda, which is actually where they arrested him at. Yeah. So his life declined drastically after she twigged to the fact that her sons actually sort of stepped in and went, Mom, what they're saying he's done he's.

1:32:24 Done. So their son's actually cottoned onto it. Yeah. Pretty early on, apparently one of them was he was a learner driver and he was in the car with Robert and they on the radio, it came up and it was like anybody who lives sort of in this area, if you own a blue and they, they listed four different types of cars. It was like a Toyota Corolla or a Nissan, whatever the hatchback and a blah blah blah. Blah, yeah, blue colour, can you? Please, like, turn yourself into the police. We just need to have a quick look through your car.

1:32:56 Yeah, get the VIN, sort all that out. And so Robert's son said, well, why don't we go like, we'll just pop in now. We should go and do that. And he's like, Oh no, no, it's not my type of car. No. And he and and the that was what made the sun go. Why wouldn't we go? And that was his first inclination, that there was something a bit not right here. And you can't tell me that then if that's your immediate reaction to that, you like something you knew something already that was already that's connecting or absolutely.

1:33:23 Like, you know, like, yeah. I mean, for a young kid, I mean, he was probably, what, 1617 to be able to go away. What's my dad been up to? Yeah. Like, to have that untrusting kind of feel. Yeah. There's stuffs gone on. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, yeah, sure. Oh God. Oh dear. So. Yes, so. Well, so yeah, I just say he was convicted and sentenced to life imprisonment plus 15 years, and he was marked as never to be released. So no parole, nothing. He would be in prison for the rest of his life and he was. So unfortunately now he died.

1:33:59 No, unfortunately not at all. No, I didn't mean to say that. Actually, fortunately not soon enough. He died on the 4th of November 2021, which did you know that was the day after? Now, unrelated story, but I just like the connection here. Yeah, he died the day after little Cleo who went missing in WA. Yeah, was found. No, I didn't know. That, yeah, I just felt that was an interesting little tidbit. Yeah. I mean, obviously they're different stories. But. Some parallels and some way, but thank God she was found.

1:34:32 But yes, so she, yeah, I just thought that was interesting. Now that he was in obviously in jail for many, many years. He in that time was caught up in, well, not caught up in with the police believe he was fairly instrumental, instrumental in orchestrating this. There was a child pornography ring where they would have like visitors come to the prison and, you know, smuggle in material, photos and things like this of children to then be distributed around the jail. And yeah, he was sort of leading that.

1:35:09 What a fucking devious. So clearly Leopard has not changed its spots and never would. I think in his sentencing, the judge who was actually in tears at the sentencing because of just the horrific nature of this and the absolutely tragic loss of Cherie's life, but he said you will never, you are unable to be rehabilitated and that is why he gave such such a sentence. Yeah, I mean, Margaret Hobbs always said that too, from her take on him of all the therapy she was doing with him. At no point was he making any progress.

1:35:43 He was, he was constantly escalating, even with therapy in place. It wasn't even stabilizing. There was it was just she knew that he was not. He was going to perpetrate something eventually. Yeah. Which is why she got that gut instinct to, you know, straight away with that rosebud connection. Yeah, that he had to have been him. Gross. It's horrible. So Margaret Hobbs actually wrote a book or started to write a book about all of her experiences with regard to this case. I think for her it was a way of getting it all out on the paper because, as you said, she really suffered throughout all of this, you know, can't even imagine.

1:36:23 But she actually passed away while she was writing the book. And the most beautiful Andrew Rule finished the book off for her. Yeah. And published it. Andrew Rule, you know, you can listen to his podcast. I love him. He's just so great. Yeah. Listen to his podcast about this case because he's got a lot more knowledge than we do about it. And obviously he's, you know, co-authored a book about it. So yeah, definitely give that a read or listen to his podcast as well. It's really, really good. Yeah.

1:36:55 But yeah. That's kind of the story of Cherie Beasley. I mean, again, I think keeping her name out there, just remembering what a beautiful little girl she was, Sparky, sparky, vibrant, you know, young life that was tragically, tragically and horrifically lost. Absolutely. Family again that far reaching ripple effective crime I. Was gonna say there was one story I heard about her, her grandfather Neil, who we spoke about in saying that he was. So he had a lot of guilt in terms of him and how he's right.

1:37:29 He raised his daughter and that Kerry and then obviously then Cherie to the extent of like to look for Cherie. There was was like a clairvoyant at one point prior to it being announced publicly that it was a blue car. In her telling, she said that that there was a blue car involved, named a name and a couple of other details and things. And so when it was, it was found out that it was a blue car involved, he was like, he latched onto this information, right? That she obviously did no stuff. Yeah.

1:38:03 And particularly then he looked up this name that she mentioned and he found that there was a small town outside of the Hunter Valley in Sydney in NSW at the by the name by this name. And she mentioned a few other things that connected like a particular place of that. That's where she is, right, right. So he took it upon himself at this point, like this is early days. He got in his car and he drove from the Mornington Peninsula to this little town north of the Hunter Valley. Wow and went to he found a place there which was like a like an abandoned house, checked it out from top to bottom searching found that she wasn't there obviously and got back in his car and drove all the way back to anywhere to Melbourne.

1:38:53 It's. Like a 12 hour he did it in he. Did it in 12, he did it in 24 hours. Like the back there and back, like actually to the point of like no sleeping whatever. And he did it that he actually damaged his car. I think he hit some road work sign or something at one point because he shouldn't have been driving. He was probably lucky that's all that happened really. But that's how determined he was and how much love he had for Cherie and how he wanted to find her. That just breaks my heart. That's awful.

1:39:23 Yeah, awful. So I mean, because I think out there is a lot of information of obviously Sheree had a pretty rough upbringing in her short life, but people loved her. Yeah, she was. I think it's undeniable that she. Was, and she was. As much as maybe she was not supervised in those moments where she should have been, she was very much loved. Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. I, I don't think that's ever been disputed. No, I think she had a, you know, she had a wide network of people around her who loved her.

1:39:50 And the community that she was living in really sort of embraced her as well. She was being raised by a village. I think he's a he's a I agree. Yeah, And that's what she thing to say. Yeah, yeah. If only there was better villages. I mean, yeah, Rose, But at this time I say was quiet town. But you know, we should have said. Robert Lowe had seen Cherie previously to this. He had targeted her. Yeah. It wasn't as random as it appeared. No, he had seen that she was not supervised on a regular basis. Yeah, I think at a dance class he'd been loitering around that she was attending as well.

1:40:22 She. Was Yeah. And, and that was actually reported to the police. Yeah. So he was, he actually was fondling himself. What? Looking through, looking through the dance class window, he was fondling himself. And so obviously that was reported to the police. They never caught him. Yeah. They didn't know it was him at the time. They didn't know it was him. So the dance class teacher was like, you know, sent a thing out to parents saying, you know, this has happened. Make sure that you know you're here to pick up your kids on time and you know that.

1:40:51 Be extra cautious. And the dance teacher actually said she was really concerned about Cherie because she rode a bike to dance and home again. And even despite, even after this incident happened, that still continued. So he did know her. He had seen her around. We don't know how long he'd been following for her for. I believe there'd been sightings of him around Rosebud Primary School as well. So there's, you know, there's a lot of opportunities there for him to have really kind of gotten a bit of a feel for.

1:41:25 Yeah, the fact that she probably wasn't actively supervised, really. Yeah, he he apparently that day he went down to Rosebud to see. Sharif. Like that's how deranged he was. He'd gone from church that morning, where he was a Sunday school teacher. He was also like a cricket coach and stuff and he just. And he's got convictions like, I mean, get involved, get, I mean, all that at the moment, but. Yeah, I know, but like this is back in the time before like a working. With children check this is. It and This is why we've got these working with children's checks.

1:41:57 I know people like paper they're written on. I, I know, I know. But it is maybe a thing, you know, and it might stop somebody from getting one thinking that something might come up and then they won't be working with our kids or volunteering to be a coach or whatever. Yes I know it can be a pain in your ass to have to do 1 but. There's reasons for. Safety of kids, and I'm sure there are better things that we can do and all that's an that's a completely separate argument. Yeah, but I think, you know, there was nothing like that back then.

1:42:23 So how are they to know that the cricket coach was a fucking pedophile Kitty Fiddler? Yeah, well, that's it. Oh, he's just gross. Absolutely gross. Human. And I'm glad he's gone. Yeah, me too. Me. Too All right, our next episode next week is Jamie Faith, Faith this one. It's an interesting case. Yes, I actually don't know a huge, huge amount about it. Jamie is the husband. It was, you know, husband and wife Jamie and Jennifer off the top. Of my. Head, yes, you're right. That's where I had Jennifer in my head because I think I'd just written down Jamie just right before it said OK Anyway, sorry, yeah, just going back to the start of the episode there and how my brain works.

1:43:03 Yeah. So stay tuned next week for that one. Yeah, it's a really fascinating. I'm really that one actually. Yeah. I'm really looking forward to looking into this. One yeah, me too. Got me gripped actually. Yes. OK. So we'll we'll come back and visit us next week for that. Yeah. Thank you for joining us again. We really appreciate everybody's support. Come join us over in at the Patreon as well and join up. We're gonna be releasing that episode ASAP. Yeah, that's it. Excellent. Oh, stay curious, crime besties.

1:43:29 Bye.