Episode 58 - Childers Palace Backpackers Hostel Fire

0:15 Welcome back, crime besties for another episode. Here we are again. Hello Friday again love. Friday's best day of the week. I think so, especially when you've had a week like you've had, you've had a a busy one and what's going? On yeah, lots going on. It's been crazy. We're just caught up. We're we're, we're nicely caught up. Yeah, yeah, that's it, Catch. The people up now. Yeah, that, that's exactly right. We actually haven't spoken a lot this week because you've been so busy. The boys have had those extra days with their dad which means we don't see each other at pick up on those days and really throws things out actually.

0:48 But weirdly my boys have now decided that a kiss and go is the way to go, which wonderful not matter. Yeah, normally in the mornings that's my clear threat. I can aim at them if like we're running late, if we are any later guys, we have to do a kiss and go. So it get you to go though and they normally then like pull power through and 30 seconds are in the car. Yeah, they've leaned into it now. And if that threat is a oh, OK, well, so we got like 10 more minutes then and we can just do a kiss and go like, well, yeah, if that's what you want to do.

1:21 Sweet, especially on a wet when the weather's been shit like it is today. That and like, then I actually get to work on time. Oh. Yeah, that would help. And I've said this, I was saying this to him for a long time, saying the whole, like, kissing goes aren't that bad. Guys like walk in, walk straight into school. Like, you get more time to get ready. Yeah. And I get to work on time. Whereas if I walk in with them. It's like 10 minutes, you end up chatting with someone. Someone, someone, someone.

1:48 Takes up all your time. I mean, I don't get to work until like probably quarter past 20 past sometimes like depending on what's happened, traffic, all those sorts. Of yeah, yeah, yeah. Whereas, yeah, if I do a kiss and go with them, I'm at work by 9, yeah, by 9:00, like sort of stuff. So it's far better, yeah, that I'm there on time. Yeah. So yeah, like if that I'm. Not keep keep that rolling. Yeah. Plus it's, it's like it's easier because there's so much more time. We have a good 1015 minutes more in the mornings.

2:17 Yeah, because you gotta get ready. Find a car park. This is it. Walking, flipping. Yeah, yeah, great. The. Crossing Lady. I am loving the kiss and go other than the other parents. Oh, the parking. OK, so friends of ours, we've got a group chat and yesterday. So if we see shocking parking jobs and we actually see shocking parking jobs a lot, I'm sure. Everyone does around school. Oh. It's so bad though I'm like anyway parking but this one I feel like this one takes the cake. The. One that was it was bad, especially when I spoke to them afterwards, like about the details of it.

2:52 OK, well, do you wanna say that? Say what happened then. Well, yeah, well, so the photo we got was literally what had happened was this car had just mounted the curb with the front wheels. But literally wheels. So they'd gone in front wheels, they'd gone in bonnet first into a spot that wasn't quite long enough for them to like parallel par. Like 4 wheel drive a Ute thing like. A Dodge Ram type. Oh yeah, car too freaking big, and clearly someone who can't drive a car that big shouldn't be. Yeah, yeah.

3:22 And they've pulled in like, you know, bonnet first over the curb, 2 wheels up on the street, whacked the hazards on. So they don't even know they've done the wrong thing by putting the hazards on. And then the mum in the passenger seat gets out with the kid and walks them in while dad sits in the car with the hazard lights on, parked like that. Mind you, the the person who sent us that photo was saying there was two of them standing there. There was a clear, easy park for them in front of where they were standing, which was no problem.

3:51 Yeah, like 10 metres further down the street than where this ridiculous spot was. Yeah, but this is so friggin entitled. It's, it's actually ridiculous. Absolutely. You know what makes you so special? But also, how dangerous is that to mount a curb where there's 'cause this was at the kindergarten next to our school. Yeah, but you could have bloody. Oh, it's just so dangerous, so inconsiderate. But fuck some of the parking. I sent one to the group the other day and it's. It literally looked like this person had driven.

4:21 Yeah. And just stopped in the middle of the street and decided that's where to park. Yeah. Yeah. They sort of angled their front wheel slightly in, so I assume that meant that they thought that was OK. Yeah, Oh my God. But even the kiss and go drives me mental. Oh yeah, that's shocking. Like. I because I pulled up to like today behind another car and you kind of like, there's always that do I wait and pull up and keep moving up with the other cars to, you know, let everyone else behind me? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

4:47 Because I was down low, very low in the in the rung that I was like, oh, what's the car in front of me gonna do? And as I looked the, the girl in got out of the schoolgirl, got out of the car bag on back or before I even like blinked, you know, that I'm like, oh, that mum's gonna pull out. So I'll wait and pull in first. They're up so that the person behind me can pull in too. Yeah, right. Nope. All of a sudden, driver's seat door open. Mum jumps out, walks around the car, standing there hugging her daughter.

5:15 Oh, have a good day. And I'm like, OK boys, this is it. We're here. Like, come on, you guys out. My boys were out. Got balls out of the boot, all that stuff. Boot closed and I'm ready to go. Before she was even back in her car. And I'm like. It kind of defeats the purpose of a kiss. And go doesn't. I know. I mean, the kiss and go says 2 minutes. Yeah, but 30 seconds is all you need. Tapes. Yeah. So you could. You barely need to stop the calf moving. I'm like as we're as we're driving down like the main road towards where the kiss and go is.

5:44 I'm like right boys, before we get there right tonight, we've got this song, we've got that. I'll meet you here and do it all the. All the admin. Yeah, before we even get to the kiss and go, so that when we get there, you know, we've had the I love yous. Have a great day. See you later. Yeah, literally kick him out the door. Bye. Because then you can. Just as I'm pulling out, I watch them that they've gone through the game. Yeah, that's it. And that's it. You're fine. You know, I mean, teachers are on duty by then.

6:10 And yeah. And I mean, mine aren't little little. So it's, you know, yeah. Like I'm just gotta, I don't know how I'd go doing it with a preppy, but the girl in front of the car, in the car in front of it was not a preppy. She would have been grade four, grade 5 easy. Yeah, OK. Like kind of stuff. And that's not the first time that's happened. That's pretty regular. It's so annoying. Yeah, so annoying. Yeah. People are so selfish. Anyway, Yeah. Now, because we haven't had a huge amount of time to catch up, I did wanna talk to you about a couple of things that have been in the media this week, but we actually have to like, what the fuck is she gonna come out?

6:39 And do like I don't know. Anything. So the first thing I wanna know, Yeah. How did you feel about Taylor Swift's announcement? I'm sorry. I love Travis Kelsey. So do I. You know that he's in the new Happy Gilmore 2 movie, right? I'm watching it with my boys because. And they watched it without me and so. And I was like, oh, we're watching it again because I haven't seen it yet. Yeah. Mad Happy Happy Gilmore. So we watched that and I'm like, hello, that's Travis Kelsey. And my boys are like who, what, who do?

7:10 They not know who he is. My kids know who he is. I said, don't you know who he is? They're like, Oh yeah, Travis Kelsey, guys, they knew who he was. As in like, Oh yeah, Travis Kelsey, Taylor Swift boyfriend. I just don't think they knew who he was when they saw him. Like, and he does look a little bit different in I guess a little bit, yeah, But I'm like, no, no, that's I I there's no question about it. That's definitely him. Yeah. So. Oh, I loved her announcement. Oh, mate. And it was and you know what, 2 girl, I have to say, like their podcast, the two, the two brothers.

7:42 I mean, it's, it's so bogan. Yeah, but I love it. Yeah, I love the bogan, you know. They got paid $100 million for that, if anyone wants to pay us. So hello, we'll take it take. It half that. Sure. All right. Fine. OK 'cause we're not dating Taylor Swift. Fine. Take half. Yeah. But this is the thing, I feel like she really spoke to the people, you know, by being on the, you know, bring it to the bogans as well. Taylor like. I think, you know what I think, I think they are for everyone. And I think that's what her announcement on the podcast shows.

8:14 They are for everybody. And, you know, a lot of the rhetoric around them is about how they are really approachable. You know, Taylor Swift is one of those people who one of those celebrities who, you know, she'll go to a restaurant or whatever and she'll tip somebody $15,000 or she'll pay for their college tuition. And yeah, she's an amazing person and. And I love the show. No, no. And I love that about her. However, she is now like a billionaire, right? Yeah. Now if her and, say, Selena Gomez, who is, I think also listed as potentially A billionaire now.

8:47 Yeah, the two of them are pretty good friends. Yeah. If the two of them got together, they could literally solve world hunger. Yeah. So that kind of. But then why does the responsibility lie on them? No, it's, but this is the thing that that someone needs to start something of like the billionaires going, hey, we need to give back here. Yeah. Again, I feel like they are the people that should, that could potentially show what it should be looking like. Yeah, Yeah. I don't know. I just, they don't need to potentially do it themselves, but have a fairly good whack at it.

9:16 Yeah. I think they've got to like that. I love that how they give back. They do give back, but I think they, I mean, they could afford to do more. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, but yeah, no, but I loved, I loved how the two of them, like Travis and Taylor, I don't know, the way their banter, Yeah, I I genuinely believe their relationship's real. I don't think it is APR stunt and I know that's something that's out there, but Oh no. I think it's genuine, yeah. I think it's real. I have to believe that it's real.

9:41 Because I was kind of hoping I knew that the announcement was coming and I'm like, oh, hope she's pregnant. Well, apparently. So I, I was listening to some commentary and apparently she had a like she had AT shirt tucked in. Yeah. And someone was like, I think she's done that. So that there's no speculation that this was a potential pregnancy announcement. Yeah, you can. See how flat her tummy? Is it's flat, Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh wow. I'm I'm. I really hope that for them it's. Yeah, it's forever.

10:07 It's a real deal. Yeah, they're great. They're great. Love it. Oh and obviously love Oh my God having mental blank. Jason. Jason's wife, Jesus, what's her name? Kylie. Kylie. Listen to Kylie Kelsey. I love her podcast. Do you? I'm, I'm like, it's a bit samey for me. I think I, I like her. I really like she loves her down to down to Earth and yeah, great. But I've listened to a few podcasts of hers and I'm like, oh, they're a bit samey. Yeah, you'll see. I mean, I don't listen consistently. Yeah.

10:34 I've only listened like probably, you know, more sporadically. Yeah, sporadically, yeah. So maybe like in that sense that I've enjoyed it. Yeah. Yeah. Because I do like some of her conversations. That she had yeah. Agreed. Yeah, yeah, she's, she's also. But I also love how humble she is in that she brings on people that, you know, like she fully fangirls. And I'm like, I'd fangirl over you. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And then the other thing I wanted to ask you about because, and I think this actually came out over a week ago, but we still haven't actually discussed it.

11:03 Oh yeah, discussed it. And this is, you know, those Skims, the new Skims face things that have come out. Have you seen these? So yeah, so skims have come out. With it like you're gonna Kim Kardashian. Yeah. Kim Kardashian. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Google it now get your phone out. Yeah, yeah, have a look. And just like Google skims face. To anything photos or like images. Yeah. So what it actually is, I'll try and give a a verbal description of it, but it's basically like this thing that you wear overnight Skims material and it kind of like it's meant to like help define your jaw.

11:39 I'm like, what the fuck has the world come to? Well, there's a she inversion with $6. Maybe we should give that a grab. Might not have the quite the compression of the Skims version. Yeah, found the ear hole. Gets me, I know, but then also I wouldn't I I get the ear hole I'd. Say I wouldn't, it would really like and because I'm guessing this thing's fucking tight. I think so. And the whole idea is that it helps like, you know, tighten up. What I just, I just just scrolled and saw a picture of what's his name?

12:13 Silence of the Lambs. Hannibal Lecter. He's actually quite Hannibal Lecter esque. Yeah, I'm like what the fuck is the world coming to that we as women now need shapewear for our face? No, but. Come. On We're wearing it in public. Yes, yes, people are wearing them in public. They're meant to be worn overnight, I think. Yeah. Oh, that's what I assumed. And now that now I'm scrolling, going. But hang on, these people are in public, Yeah. Yeah. I thought you'd wear it overnight and then next day if.

12:44 I don't know, sucked in a bit. I don't know. Oh, no, sorry. I don't compression for your face, that's a hard no for me. Oh yeah, Hard no. Hard no. No, man. Yeah, I know, 'cause weirdly Brody came home the other week going like Mum, mum, look, I've got I've got a triple chin, not gonna sucking his face back and stuff and he's like so excited. I'm like, oh man, you actually don't want. That no. And he's like goes no, no, it's great. And he goes what about you? Can you do it? I'm like, don't need to do what you're doing together.

13:14 I just need to just you. Know be me and he goes oh, you're so lucky. No, that's not that's. OK, babes, isn't that beautiful? You're so lucky. Yeah, Thanks, mate. Thank you. Appreciate that. Skims in his world would not be Oh. No, he wants an anti skims. Anti skims he wants, he needs like one that'll like smoosh everything down. It's like you would create the kins. Ricky Gervais when he used to do that character in the bath. Oh, that. Oh yes, so good, so so good now. Oh God, we have so many shout outs this week.

13:51 It's. Insane. Yeah, my first shout out is OK, This is to my mum's audiologist, Gavin, OK? Really random one. So random. So first of all, Gavin, I have to say #1 thank you. Thank you so much for making my mum wear hearing. Things. Is that a thank you do you mean? Oh, no. Which would you prefer? Oh, no, it's a massive thank you. She's resisted for a while or she reckons they didn't work for a whatever. Yeah, but one of the it's actually so funny in our house because in our family, because my mum and dad, when my nephew was really young, my youngest nephew, I think he was maybe 1 or he wasn't really talking yet.

14:33 And we'd say to him, hey, Jack, what does grandma say? And he'd go, hey, hey. Because like, she never, can never hear anything any of us say. And then we'd say to him, what does Pennsylvania say? And he'd go, 'cause Pa's a grumpy old coat. So. Dad. Some of the time he can be pretty grubby actually. Our kids, the mum and dad had the four kids for a sleepover last week. Yeah, Oh yeah, we had a 40th and Matt and Monica had, I think they had a 40th too. Anyway, and they had the four of them for a sleepover the next, the day after the sleepover, I think it all went fine.

15:15 Yeah. The day after the sleepover, Dad puts a message in our group chat. Family group chat. Who bloody picked all the mandarins off the Mandarin tree? There's only one Mandarin left out there and we've been growing those all season and blah blah. That's hilarious. Anyway, so I looked at that and I was like. Lol I'll be around. Matt Matt and filmed Jack and Louie asking them the question. Oh yeah, and Jack's like Ollie ate them all. Threw under the bus immediately. The bus? No, it turns out I'm not going to name names, but somebody threw them over the fence, like into the neighbour's yard.

15:52 So wasn't my. So the neighbors got a nice bunch of mandarins. That's right, I don't know how good a quality they would have been and whether I don't think they were ready for picking necessarily yet. So Power was pretty bloody grumpy. But anyway, sorry. All that to say, thank you Gavin for being patient with mum, because you know anyway, he loves true crime. He's listening to our podcast and loving it. Thanks Gavin. Appreciate that all. Got that one on a tangent, sorry. No, that's all. The tangents are great.

16:19 We love it. We've had a few buy me a coffee this week. We've had someone. Yeah, someone. Someone who also gave an extra coffee so that we could buy or so that you could buy. A plan for Kyle. Kyle needs his own fanbase I think. This is hilarious, I'm sorry I could have him.

16:41 Someone else reading one of the comments like I'm here for the Kyle contest. I'm like fuck, are we gonna have to do a fucking Kyle update every week? No, no. Oh God, no I can't. He's just. He's still slimy, he's still creepy, and he's still gross. Yeah. Yeah. And Brody still loves. Obsessed. Yeah, obsessed. We also had Becks Pateri, Mel Ruffly who sent a really nice message for Luna and Donna Lesko who said she's merely caught up on all of our episodes, so she was a bit devil about that. Oh yes, now another one that just touched me.

17:15 You just showed me this Instagram reel. I don't know, 5 minutes before we started recording. I haven't seen it. It actually brought tears to my eyes. So thank you a million times over to Aluca dot Hair. That's their Instagram handle, E double Luca. They're based in Canberra, hairdressers based in Canberra. And a specific shout out to Chelsea and Stace who put on their Instagram stories that, you know, to listen to us. It's like, Oh my God, there are people who found us who are now recommending us.

17:51 Blows my mind. That completely blows my mind. Absolutely blows my mind. So thanks Bills, and thank you. We, as Meg said in the message back to you, if only we were in Canberra, we would we would be at your cell on in no time. Down there for a haircut and a chat about crime? Absolutely. Always up for that, always up for that. So thank you very much. We also have a new listener, Kirsty, who sent us a really lovely message through I think it was on Instagram or somewhere, but she was really enjoying our content.

18:19 So thanks for that, Kirsty. And then bring we've had our first Patreon, so our very first ever Patreon is Jacinta so. Thanks and welcome. Back, I feel like she must have listened to the episode and gone straight away and signed up because she was right on top of it. So thank you very much. And then we've also had Erin, Alyssa and Emma also join us over on Patreon. So in the next week or two, we'll get our first bonus episode up there. So if that's something that you might like to listen to, please go ahead to our Patreon.

18:52 So it's Patreon dot com forward slash 2 crime besties. The link is in our BIOS and wherever you need it. So I'll. Put some more stuff up on the social this week too. Get it out there a bit more and we'll build our little community over there. Come and join us. We're yeah, spilling the tea over there. We're also just honing in a little, few little music and things that we're going to add to, yeah, Trozen things. We're just deciding on all those bits and pieces and finalizing our first episode. Yeah, put up in there.

19:19 So that'll be up there very soon and can start enjoying that. Yes. So thanks to everybody who's who's joined. It's great. It's great to have. We're building like a a new community. Yeah. Jump in that group chat and tell us what you want. Yeah, please. Yes, please, please, please. That's exactly. What you want? All right, Oh my God, Peter will probably almost be at work by the time this band is. Over. Poor Peter. Sorry, Peter. So let's get into today's case. This is iconic, an iconic Australian event.

19:50 Yeah. So we're discussing today the Childers Palace Backpackers Fire and I obviously, you know, I remember it, I remember it happening, but in looking into it I'd forgotten so many of the details. Do you feel like? I feel like I had forgotten details. I didn't know full details even like it was. So it was definitely all over the media when it happened. Oh yeah. But months, yeah, it did, but I didn't remember. Sort of. I'm beyond the actual fire occurring. So I think I didn't really understand the aftermath of it and what happened there and, you know, in terms of any convictions and things like that.

20:30 Yeah, yeah. So. And lack thereof potentially. So, yeah, I didn't really understand all of that side of it at all. I I really didn't have a grasp of that. So I was, I was fascinated at the same time as just, I feel better as an Australian, I think now understanding this case because I just feel like I didn't, hadn't, hadn't had its service put to me of like, you know, like what it actually is like, yeah. And what it means to people, because this is, it was, it's impacted so many people. And I think that's something that we can fully get into as we go on is, you know, we always talk in our episodes about the ripple effect of crime.

21:03 And that's absolutely true. And generally, it's it's immeasurable. We don't you don't know the extent of that, really. Yeah, I think in this case, there's so many factors in that realm to consider. And that's something we can talk to when we get to it, for sure. But first of all, well, let's talk about Childers itself. So it's 300 kilometers north of Brisbane in Queensland and about 40 kilometers from Bundaberg, which is probably the next closest town that people would know. Because generally speaking, if you asked me a week ago where Childers was, I knew it was in Queens.

21:35 Well, I actually even didn't even know it was necessary Queensland because I was kind of like, I know it's somewhere between sort of the north, NSW, South QLD ish like kind of on that. I knew that that was the roundabouts where it is. Because I do get, I have to admit I do get confused sometimes with those that area, yeah, whether it's not NSW or Queensland, Yeah. So don't know it. Well, I haven't spent much time in that area. So yeah, I was kind of like, OK, Queensland, right, QLD? Where in Queensland?

22:00 Where in QLD? Yeah, you. Know 40 KS from Bundaberg. Bundaberg's known for rum Rum, one of my dad's favorite. Drinks. Yeah, same with my dad too. I like I should get together. And have a Bundy. Bundy. And Bundy. And Coke. Yuck, the smell of it makes me wanna vom. Oh God, anyway, but that's also known for like there's a lot of sugar cane grown up there. You can buy, you know, Bundaberg branded sugar. Yeah. And like ginger and there's lots of crops and and some fruit picking fruit, yeah, fruit that are that are grown up there.

22:35 And it is a beautiful place. Like it's absolutely stunning in terms of landscape and it's really lush. The weather in Queensland is, you know, fairly temperate and, you know, obviously lends itself well. The conditions lend itself well to being able to sustain all of these crops. The soil up there is rich and it's red and really fertile. So it's it's, yeah, a really a place that attracts a lot of itinerant workers because, you know, around fruit picking seasons, you know, that's something that the farmers need a.

23:09 Lot they need a lot of help. With, yeah and it lends itself really well to backpacker type work. And if you need, if you want a visa in Australia these days and you want to extend it a little bit longer, you can do so by doing a certain number of hours in working in rural Australia. Yeah, that's also like a good spot to in terms of location of like visiting Australia and getting a really great, you know, feel of more sort of, I guess outbackish kind of Australia. But you go a little bit further north and head to those great beaches and do the Gold Coast touristy thing or further again and head up and, you know, head to this really to the top end there and or we can head South and head towards Sydney and those sorts of bits.

23:47 So it's it is a really big thoroughfare for tourists, little and backpackers particularly for that reason that it's a great stopping off point to pick up some money through the the season for picking and then keep moving on whether it be north or South that you're heading. Yeah. So yeah, it's a really popular area for that. It's not a it's not a big town, no, but it's as you said, there's lots of people going passing through all the time because it's actually on the main, the Bruce Hwy., which yes, you know, it's, it's on, on the highway basically, or it is on.

24:16 The highway. Yeah, you. Can't get around it. There's no bypass, no. So to that end, there's lots of pubs and bakeries. I think someone in one of the podcasts I was listening to someone who said that they it's home to one of the best bakeries in Queensland. Right? Great for a meat pie and a vanilla slice. Oh God I love a vanilla slice. See, I'm not into the vanilla slice thing, probably more the pie might be slice. Yeah, Yeah. I mean, in Australia, like you can't go to a country town without hitting their bakery.

24:45 It's like rule you must and go and check out and rate them. Or the pub. Yeah, the pub or the pub? Yeah, one or the other. Check out the Parma. Yeah, the meat pie and the vanilla slice. You know whether or not it's a pretty good town. Yeah, that's exactly right. Absolutely. So in 1902, there was actually a a fire that ripped through Childers and took out about 100 meters of the Main Street. Yeah. And it was absolutely devastating to the Township at the time. The the Palace Hotel, which we're talking about, it only just been built.

25:21 It was pretty new at that point. I think it had been built three years earlier. Yeah, right. I believe in 18. I think it's 1897 or 1899 it was built. And yeah, as you said it, the fire ripped through the entire, basically what was the entire Main Street. And it took them many, many years to rebuild, but they did rebuild, rebuild it. They completely rebuilt it. And because it was all then rebuilt at the same time, sort of in that early 1900s. Yes, all of the. Buildings are in that have been built in that vein.

25:54 So in that time. And so a lot of the buildings there were heritage listed, or at least their facades were heritage listed, Yes. And so it is that really beautiful old kind of town. And it still is to this day. Yeah, still. You know, you drive in there and I've, I've, I mean, I've never been. Have you ever? Been No. I haven't been through Childers, no. But when I was looking at Google Maps, you can see as you drive through, it's a beautiful, beautiful place. Yeah. And it's what you would expect a country town in Australia, rural Australia to be.

26:23 Yeah, really, really lovely. So after it was rebuilt, it was then they so they rebuilt it as a hotel over its lifespan. It was a hotel. It was a pub. They had a ballroom at one point. So really, Yes, yeah. Back. That was in the early 1900s. After local dances in. There, Yeah, yeah. And in 1993, it was converted into a backpackers and that was born out of necessity really, because there was nowhere for these itinerant workers to really stay. A lot of the farm, the farms had sheds essentially that the backpackers would stay out when they were coming to fruit pick.

27:04 But that wasn't an ideal situation. It certainly wasn't comfortable, no. And so the idea, the business idea came that they would turn it into turn the palace into a backpackers and really great idea. I mean, it meant that, you know, people who were coming in had somewhere a little bit nicer to stay and and yeah, that's, that's sort of how that all came about. We've stayed in backpackers, kind of like accommodation. Only in Europe, never in Australia. Yeah, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've stayed in a fair few different ones I've done definitely London, Australia and some in Europe.

27:39 Yeah. And I mean, they're great atmosphere to stay in. I loved staying in all of them. You get to know different people from all over the world, but it's always a really community atmosphere. You go in, you sort of, I know my first initial, the place I first stayed at was one in, in London and I was very like, I was only very, I was very young and didn't really know. And I was like, how does this freaking work? But you literally within 5 minutes being in sort of in a communal area, you chatting away with somebody and you know, they're offering you some of their two-minute noodles, you know, like kind of stuff.

28:08 It's like everyone just sort of pitched in and did things and there was, you always felt really comfortable. I, I mean, I would have thought, you know, sharing a bedroom really basically with people that you don't know, you'd feel a bit unsafe, but not at all like everyone was, yeah. Like minded, yeah, yeah, I mean, I guess there's safety in numbers if you're all kind of there for the same reason. Yeah. Most people are good people, like and and there's no, it's not like backpackers, you know, the degenerates of society.

28:34 You're you're probably young, like demographically. I'm sure most backpackers are young, don't have a huge amount of money. No. And you're wanting to experience the world, You're eager, you're keen, you're enthusiastic, you know, And if you've got all of those like minded people in the same spot, yeah, the camaraderie is great. Yeah, I mean, I've got a friend who like she met up with, met these people who is Canadian girls backpacking around Europe and things like that. And we're still all friends with them, like it's just to this day.

29:02 And like, so they they come out here a bit more than we get to go there even. But yeah, like it's, it's amazing what the community feel of them is. I know. I think I can imagine children's being very much that. Yeah, I believe. And that's, I mean, well, the they could fit 101 people in that building for at in at this point in two in the year 2000 because they'd obviously built extra rooms in and everything. So it was pretty sardine ish I think. Absolutely, yes. So I mean this is kind of going a little bit ahead now, but at the inquest it was actually found that the building was only licensed to carry 53 and so it had 100, it had 101 people, a capacity of 101 and on the night of the fire it had 8088 people in there.

29:45 So it was well and truly over capacity, but not even quite to the capacity of how many beds they had. So you can imagine if it had have been full, full, how much more devastating this would could have been. So let's get into the what actually happened on the night, do you think? And then we'll go back and we can talk a little bit more. Yep, sounds like the way to go. Cool, so on the 23rd of June in 2000 it was just after midnight and. Then the 24th. Oh, so yeah, early in the 24th. So yeah, the night, yeah, OK, actually the night of the 23rd, yes, there were two.

30:19 Well, actually, there's so many stories because. Yeah, which way you want to come at? But yeah, so I'm going to talk about these two particular blokes. Yeah. They'd been across the road at the pub, had a couple of drinks. They've gone back to the hostel and they were in separate rooms at the time. They've both needed to go to the loo at the same time and met each other in the hallway. And they're like, yeah, you need to pee do. The little night bed. Go, let's do it. Just after midnight. They've gone to the toilet and one of them has actually gone downstairs to go to the loo.

30:50 And when he's come out of the toilet, he's seen a man who has since been actually, we'll get to that in a SEC. But they, he sees this guy sitting at a computer. Yeah. And next to him there is a, a rubbish bin, a waste paper bin. Yeah. On fire and. Had like a cushion from a couch on top of that, Yeah. Which then bridged that to the couch. That's right. Makes sense. Yeah. So it the pillow hadn't, or the cushion hadn't caught fire yet, But I mean, what the fuck are you doing? So this guy actually took the waste paper basket outside, extinguished the fire, left it out there and was like, what the fuck are you doing, mate?

31:33 Like fucking what the fuck? But then he thought, oh, well, I've put the fire out, it's all good. He's gone back to bed. Yeah, not really thinking that much more of it unfortunately. I mean, this is not in no way. His fault? No. There's so many bits of it, yeah. 15 minutes later, what we know is there were three deliberate fires, 3 separate fires lit in that hostel in that room. So this is the ground floor of A2 story building. As you said, there were 88 occupants at the time and most of them were asleep because a lot of them were doing fruit picking.

32:09 They would go to bed fairly early. They had to be up in the very, very early hours of the morning. So most of them would be in bed, but somewhere between 9:30 and 11:00 PM So this happened at about 12:30 in the morning. And it. Yeah, it most, in fact, I think almost everyone was asleep by that point. Yeah. So what the a lot of the accounts of the people who survived are that they started to hear noises. There was like smashing of glass, things like that, that really that's probably what woke them.

32:41 Yeah. Because you don't get woken up by the smell of smoke that that apparently will not wake you. But yeah, they they were hearing loud crashes and. And somebody thought it was like a bar fight. Someone else thought like maybe there was a car crash out the front. Like they didn't really know. They were quite disoriented. Yes. So they anyway that so whatever happens, a lot of them were woken up. There were some people who then tried to turn on the light to try and see what was going on. Apparently someone flicked on a light and then instantly the the power went out in the building, but it gave them a split second of.

33:19 Where am I? Where am I? What's going on now? As you said, you mentioned this earlier, the place was like a rabbit warrant. So the original building, the original Palace Hotel was the middle building. It had then had extensions done since 19 O three or nineteen O 4 when it was rebuilt and it had two other arms to the building, so and little corridors joining the two the three buildings together essentially. Yeah, we put some pictures up of the layout, the floor plan, yeah. And there were there were rooms in the hostel, especially upstairs, there was a room that we it's known as Room 7.

34:00 Yeah, this was a bunk room. It had I. Think it had it had double and triple bunks in it all around. I think that room alone had a capacity of something like I wanna say like at least 15. 15, I think you're right. And I think there were maybe 10 in there at the time, or 11 actually, I think were in there at the time of the fire. The way they'd configured this room, they'd actually put a bunk bed against one of the doors, So there were two doors into this room. This room had actually previously been a lavatory.

34:32 Yeah. And but it was massive. It was a really big room. So the owners decided to make it into a They had enough toilets, so they decided to make it into another dorm room, and in doing so they blocked off one of the access points with a bunk bed. With a bunk bed and also had like nailed it shut I think too so it was even if they'd pulled the bunk bed out, I don't believe they still would have potentially been able to get through that door. That's right and they'd also which I couldn't work this out from the floor pans.

35:02 I was saying there must have been AI thought it was quite central this room yes, but apparently there was windows as well, but that this was the only room for whatever reason the windows had been put had put bars on them. Yes. So that was because when it was a hotel, yes. And it was only that building. So the annexes, the other two buildings hadn't been built yet. And there was like, apparently someone said there was like some crime that was going on. And so the hoteliers at the time decided to put bars on.

35:31 Them so people couldn't climb in through the windows at night and stuff like that. So they'd put. That's what they'd said, yeah, yeah. So there were bars on windows. So the only way he'd get out of that room was one door, which was right. So this room was actually directly above the room where the fire started. So this was basically like the the heat from the fire was coming directly up to them first sort of thing. Yeah, now again, this is an old building. All of the floors were made of wood, so it was all wooden beams and structures.

36:01 And the fire was obviously lit with an accelerant of some description because apparently the flames went from the floor of the bottom like the ground floor. Yeah, through the floor of the OR through the ceiling, I guess, into that room, like, like a jet almost. It was so ferocious. There was one of the survivors commented that when she was exiting and trying to get out, that was what one thing that's really stuck with her was how hot the floor was. So it wasn't like, I mean, you think about trying to, you've meant to stay low in a fire.

36:36 So they were trying to get low, but it was so hot on the floor that they felt like they couldn't touch it. So it was almost like, you know, this full floor is lava kind of feeling as they were trying to exit this building and get out like. I believe from room 7 only one person successfully escaped yes and lived to tell the tale. The other thing is that because it was such a rabbit warrant, so sorry, when the power went out, it was the IT was so dark in there that you couldn't even see your hand in front of your face.

37:07 So not only dark because it was the middle of the night, but also the thick black smoke from everything that was burning, all of the all of the fuel that was burning. Apparently the smoke was accurate. It was disgusting. They couldn't breathe. There were light up exit signs that should have then helped, but the batteries in those had not been changed for seven years so they didn't. They failed as well in that moment when they should have clicked in as as back up to the central power. They didn't turn on, so they also weren't illuminating to give anyone direction.

37:43 So they're when they were coming out of their rooms to try and find where to go from there, it was pitch black trying to find which direction and quite disorientating of which way they're gonna go to get out. And for some of the people who died, it was a, a 5050. Do I go left here or do I go right? And the people who went left were able to get out of a window and onto a roof of the building next door and escape that way. Yeah. The people who went right ended up in a dead end. There was literally one survivor's account.

38:12 She said that she was going in One Direction to get out and randomly this person ran up behind her, grabbed her by the arm and dragged her in the opposite direction. And she that that was what made her. She would have she would have kept going in the wrong direction and would have been totally dead, absolutely no question. To this day, she does not know who that was that grabbed her arm and pulled her out. Oh wow. But that's that person saved her life, no question. Oh my gosh. Another one was a guy named of the name of Brett.

38:42 He had walked into the room. There was two other guys he never met. Didn't know these guys for a bar soap. They were asleep, dead to the world asleep in their in their room. He was in the same room as them. He actually punched them both in the stomach to wake them up like, you know, do what you got to do like kind of stuff. So he punched them both in stomach to wake them up and he screamed at them. We've got to get out, get down low, grab my legs. And so he crawled in front. Obviously that's how you know what you're supposed to do that.

39:11 The other two blokes, one on either side of him, holding onto the his legs as they all then crawled out, basically congolining it sort of stuff. And the three of them managed to find their way out and get out. These guys would have just perished because they didn't hadn't even woken yet. And if they literally had minutes, seconds to do this, seconds. Yeah. I mean, so Brett saved both of their lives by crawling, crawling them both out like. Some of the deceased did die while they were asleep, so from smoke inhalation we'll get, we'll get to that a little bit later.

39:41 So this was a very cold and foggy night. Very, very foggy. And the first that any of the authorities knew about it was that just after midnight or 12:31? Yeah. Was it the? First triple. A call, yeah. Was made from the phone box, which was on the other side of the road. Yeah. To the backpackers. And the local chief fire officer had his pager, gets the page and he's like, oh, yeah. All right. So he he just thought it was probably a building fire. Or a little graphic, he didn't know. Really. So he gets he gets in his car, goes down to the station and starts getting everything ready.

40:21 They so and other officers have sort of come to attend. They had a brand new fire truck. It was less than five days old. And they've packed that all up. And he, so this the the chief fire officer said he drove past the backpackers to get to the fire station. Right. Yeah, he didn't know because it was so foggy. He couldn't even see that that's what was on fire. Wow. That just goes to show how foggy it was. Wow. Well. That. There was something going on in the area we. Hadn't got to the point of knowing where that was yet.

40:57 To their credit, though, they arrived on scene at 12:38. Yeah. So, I mean, 7 minutes, yes. For them to get to the station, get their shit together and get to that fire they trained. That's right. Amazing. Amazing. Yeah, when they pulled the fire engine up, so they parked out the front of the at the front of the out front of the backpackers. Yeah. And apparently this just goes to the ferocity of this fire. Yeah, it was so hot that all of the plastic in now they were parked out the front at in this spot for somewhere between 30 and 90 seconds.

41:32 Yeah, 'cause they basically what they do. And this is typical of what a fire truck would do at any service, where they pull up, get all this stuff off where they what they need and attach what they need to attach those sorts things. And then they move the truck away to give them access to where they to getting in and out. But they need the stuff off the truck first. So I'd rather try to lug the stuff from where they've got to park the truck kind of thing. They pull the truck in as close as they can, get what they need off, then move the truck.

41:55 Yeah, that's just protocol. Yeah, they reckon potentially 30 seconds, like 90 seconds would be worst case scenario. Yeah. Yeah, they can do it bloody fast. Yeah, it was so hot. It's melted all of the plastic light covers of the front of the truck. It has melted the vinyl seats of the truck. There was an old Nokia brick phone in there and it was so hot that that it basically exploded. Exploded. Yeah, it was so. Extremely. Hot and that's that's the outside of it let alone being in that building and that that hate that they the.

42:24 Only thing that that makes me think is I hope then that those who died, died very very quickly. Well from what I can gather, all bar 1 I believe died of carbon monoxide poisoning and smoke inhalation. That's not fun. Although I do think you pass out pretty quickly. Yeah, right. Anyway, we'll get to that because I've, I've got the governor's report that kind of goes through all that. Yeah. Right. So, oh God, it's really where are we at now? Well, it took them 4 hours to actually get the fire under control, which to me even seems pretty damn good.

43:05 But it was a very intense fire, as we were saying. So yeah, 4 hours of them working their absolute asses off. Yeah, to get this fire under control. Yeah, they eventually get that fire out. And so this at this point now we have 73 survivors, but trying to to try and work out who everyone was, who they're still looking for, etcetera. Was it absolute nightmare because one that all their passports of were inside the fire and therefore don't exist anymore. So they can't even work out who they're looking for.

43:38 Because what the backpackers did was they had a very good system for checking people in, but they didn't have a great system for departures. So they actually couldn't have, didn't have much of a record of like, oh, well, we don't know if that guy's actually still here or not. So whenever we're looking for him. And because people would often not book in for a time like they would yeah, come not really know when they were going no sort of be on a week to week basis most of the time. Even day-to-day sometimes be literally like, go to the front.

44:05 I mean, I've done it myself. Like, oh, we've changed the plans. We're gonna go tomorrow. So you'd go down the desk and you'd say, you know, like, yeah, we're gonna depart tomorrow and like, OK, cool. Yeah. You know, pass your keys in when you get when you do it. Yeah. But obviously they weren't keeping a record of that so much, you know? So yeah, they really didn't know who how many were missing, but not only that, obviously without the passports etcetera to kind of check off things. And these people weren't locals, you know, there was, you know, even local to Australia, their family, etcetera were overseas.

44:32 So even trying to identify people through DNA, say to check that they didn't have DNA samples of family members close by to achieve that. So that was that was an absolute nightmare to work out. But eventuated was that they discovered it was 15 people had had perished in the fire and then yeah, in 73 of the 88 had escaped. Now this left like so 73 people in the town of Childers who they were passes through, they had zero, all their possessions on them were in that those rooms, they had nothing. The town of Childers absolutely rallied.

45:09 And it's really fascinating listening to the locals who are now elderly people themselves talk about these young people who were, you know, in need and how they looked after them and that you hear them sort of talk about them as, like, their children. Yeah. It's so beautiful. Embraced. They 100% did. They invited them into the homes. There was a centre set up at the Isis community centre I want. To say so Isis was the name of the Isis Shia Shia council, Yeah, yeah. And they were actually in the in the midst of building this community centre.

45:39 So it wasn't even finished yet. It was still under construction. Yeah, they opened it specifically for them to go have have somewhere to go to be able to stay. But they also all the locals though were like come and have a meal with us, come and have a shower. Like they offered them whatever they needed. Any spare clothes they had. That's all. Yeah, because they had no clothes, but they also had no money or anything. So the farmers who these people had all been working their butts off for was so beautiful that they paid them straight up two weeks wages whether and whether they came to work or not, like kind of thing for the next two weeks.

46:09 That was not what it was about. It was about giving them some money to be able to go buy themselves some clothes, you know, food, things like that, that they needed, you know, to get by or just getting their passport fixed up so they could get home to their families after this horrific tragedy. But these survivors were, they were traumatized entirely. Oh my God. The stories that they talk about of like the particularly those first few nights after the fire are really harrowing in terms of like there was one guy I heard a story of how the first night particularly, he was put at this community centre to be able to sleep, which very grateful for, but he just could not sleep inside.

46:48 And he ended up sleeping, pulled out all his stuff and dragged it out onto the street and slept out there because he just the claustrophobia of being inside a building and the fear of something happening again, yeah, meant that he slept outside on a on a map. One of the local hotels had some vacancies that night. Yeah, and also offered up any spare rooms, but again, the stories are that most of those people then slept with their hotel door room doors. Open. Yeah, because they couldn't. The thought of being trapped inside a room, just.

47:18 I'm sure there was no sleep that. Night no, many of them no. And I'm sure that even to this day, those people carry that trauma with them of like, they're, I mean, I've never been in a fire to feel fear of fire, like kind of thing. I don't think like that in my, in going into any building. I don't sort of think, you know, how would I get out of here if there was a fire? But I'm sure that they have, when they go anywhere these days have that. That's probably one of their first thoughts of like, you know, so how do I exit here?

47:42 What what's what's the strategy? Yeah. You know, that level of trauma is really debilitating. And I can't even imagine it. No, I can't even imagine it. Thank. God, yeah, absolutely. Thank God we. Can't. Yes. You know, it's just horrific. Yeah. So I guess at this point, you know, the police are like looking at this and the fieries of being able to establish the fact that there were three incineration points. Very quickly they worked. Out very, very three trigger points, which equals arson. Like that's that's a a given.

48:14 Yeah. So these people were murdered and they had to find out who'd done this. And pretty quickly they were able to, I guess, have a a person who they really felt was probably more than likely responsible for this. And they identified Robert Paul Long as that person. Yeah. And a number of things that sort of triggered them to this being that one, he was known to them that to the police, but also he he was a very odd man. And he when you we were talking earlier about the demographic of someone who stays in these, in these hostels and like, yeah, absolutely.

48:53 Are Australians staying in that hostel? Just the fact he was Australian didn't make him stand out. But how much older he was. So he was 37 I believe, whereas the average age of a person that uses the hostel is something like 22. Early 20s, yeah. You know, so he did stand out in that sense. But also he had in the days building up to this, he had threatened to burn down the hostel. He had been staying at the hostel for I think it was let me. Find Oh he I'm sorry. He checked in in March of that. Year.

49:23 Sorry. He did check in in March. Yeah, and he also was then he was then asked to leave shortly, not too much longer after that was a bit. I'll leave. It was the week before, the week before the fire, he was evicted because he owed about $200 in lodgings. So he wasn't up to date with that. So they kicked him out. Fair enough. And because of that, he then started these threats. So around town, he he was known to be around the around town still. And was he also actually, I think it was the day, Yeah.

49:52 No, it was the day before the fires. He had put a note at the local Tavern saying that he was gonna commit suicide. He'd also put a similar note at the backpackers. And literally the local cop had been, he'd received being given these notes as like sort of this is weird. Like just think we'd better give this to you guys so you're aware and had had looked at these notes and seen them and kind of going, OK, something I need to look into like but. Also, it wasn't the first time he'd done that. No, threatened suicide before.

50:21 Yeah, he'd also, God, he's a he's a fucking unit. He'd told people that his children had cancer. Doesn't have any kids. He told people he had cancer. Oh, he didn't have cancer? Doesn't. Have cancer. Yeah, he was. He racially threatened like he was? Yeah. He taunted people based on their race at the backpackers, which made people feel really, really uncomfortable. Yeah, he threatened to kill one of the backpackers because they weren't Australian. What the actual fuck? Yeah, he also was really, really creepy towards some of the female backpackers, so he'd go and follow them to the pub and sit there and stare at them and just make them feel really uncomfortable.

51:05 Yeah, what a fucking piece of shit. Oh. He's gross. He's so fucking gross. On the night of the fires too. So obviously we were saying earlier that we, there was a man identified sitting in that common room, you know, and that they had, they had the fire sitting next to him. But prior to that, he, it was later worked out that he was actually outside the, the building chatting with a couple of other actual tenants from the, the hostel. And he had said to them later tonight, when you go in, just leave the back door open for me so I can get in.

51:38 So because I need to get in and beat the shit out of my old roommate in there, this Indian bloke. What? Thankfully these guys did decline. They did say to him, no, we're not leaving the door open. Like that's, that's not safe for people. No, you're not getting access. And they didn't leave the door open, but in saying that to him, they said they weren't going to do it. His return to them was oh, it doesn't matter, I've got a key anyway. So yeah, when he'd been kicked out, he took his key with him.

52:03 Fucking piece of shit. Which I do a little bit, kind of go, OK, so there's .1. Yep. Why didn't they then go inside and go, you know what, we need to tell someone that this guy's got a key and then he wants to beat the shit out of someone in here. That bugs me a bit. And then again, that that little bit of a bug of like, why don't you do more about that fire that was, you know, that to walk into that, wouldn't you be like, that's not right. I think we need to get this guy out of here for. Sure. You would think like to me, I'd be like, maybe we need to call the police.

52:33 Like this is not OK. He's just lit a fire inside. Obviously he wanted something to happen because he had fuel there, you know, as in he had the cushions there that he was then obviously trying to make catch fire to let this go. Yeah, to me, yes, that should have happened. But then it was also 12:30 in the morning and these blokes were inebriated. They'd been at the pub all night. That's not to say that none of this is their fault. No, no, no, I get what you're saying. There were so many points along.

53:03 The way where? It could have happened differently. That might have been. I just think like if if the cops had been called when like, yeah, there's this this strange guy hanging out the front who's saying he wants to get in and he's got a key. Yeah, don't if there's anything in it and the cops go, OK, all right, well, thanks for letting us know. Hang up. If they then got a second phone call saying saying, hey, there's a guy here has just lit a fire and, like, done this, they'd kind of go, let's go hang out and check out what's going on down there tonight.

53:26 Like there's something, you know? Yeah. So unfortunately, I think there was one point of entry where this could have potentially been avoided. Yeah. But there's. Yeah, lots of things wrong. Yeah. So many, so many things. So after, after the fire, obviously the police are looking for this guy because all signs are pointing to him. You know, they had a lot of these eyewitness accounts by the stage. So a few days later they're looking for him and they find him. So they put out a lot of comms out to local area, local police and everyone was kind of looking for him.

54:01 They also brought police in from Brisbane. So they brought them up from Brisbane to and they were like special tactical type police who were, you know, this was sort of their bread and butter. This is what they did. And what they did was they found him in bushland in Howard, which was about 32 KS from Childers. And he was just like hanging out there. Apparently he'd spent a couple of nights in a shed in on one of these properties. And yeah, anyway, he was found found by these police officers. So there were two police officers and a police dog.

54:37 And when they came upon him, he had a knife and he was acting completely irrationally. And he ended up stabbing, stabbing one of the police officers in the jaw so hard that the knife actually snapped off in his jaw. Left a piece in his jaw. Piece in his jaw, he also. Stabbed the poor dog in the paw as well, but he's OK he. Is OK, he survived, but that's fuck. So the other police officer drew his weapon and shot three shots, one of which hit long in the shoulder. Yeah, right. So he's drama queen.

55:15 He is thinking that he's going to die from a gunshot shoulder. No, apparently. So his claim at that point, this is what he says, yeah, Is that he said him him saying I'm going to die anyway is actually because he he had cancer that he didn't have. Yeah, OK. So he's actually what, like. So in his mind, he's like, no, I'm dying of cancer anyway, even though he doesn't have cancer. I thought it was 'cause he got shot and he's like, Oh my God, I've got a shot in the shoulder. I'm gonna. Die, which actually makes more sense to be honest.

55:50 Then I'm gonna die from my fake cancer. Oh what the fuck? Anyway, so he's confessed. He's like, yeah, lit those fires, but the police officers didn't actually have any paper on them. They had a pen, no paper, but one of them had a $10 note and they because they put off. Duty cops one. No, no, no. They were on a break. That's right. So, yeah. So they had been searching for him all morning. It was time for them to take a lunch break. And then this farmer saw him in the field or whatever in the bushland.

56:18 And so they had to. They didn't have their stuff with them because they were at the cafe or whatever they want. And so that's why they had none of their gear with them. Thankfully, they were still armed. Yes. And yeah. But they didn't have all their other stuff. Yeah. And so he had a $10 note in his pocket and he got, he wrote out the confession on this $10 note, which was then intended in evidence at the trial. Yeah. But cost that boy 10 bucks. Yeah, I hope he was reimbursed. Sure that if you put that on your little expense docket, wouldn't you pay for 10 bucks?

56:48 Yeah, you can get a couple of coffees for that. In 2000 you could probably get 3. Three at least. So, yeah, so that, like, that's a little interesting tidbit of the story there. Yeah. But he was obviously arrested, taken to hospital to have that dealt with. And apparently he also then while he was in hospital, made a confession to a nurse who was looking after him. And so, you know, again, did he make that confession because he thought he was dying of cancer? Oh my God, what a fuck. He's just, he's a real weird bloke.

57:17 He like he had a a girlfriend at one stage I believe not he maybe he had he was I don't think he was the father of the child. But he threatened he had any biology. No, I don't believe he was the father's child, but he threatened to to set them both alight. Like he was a real, not great guy at all. Like real, not Job. Yeah. Yeah. And obviously, no, it hadn't been dealt with in any way. It's not like. He had. Any treatment for whatever was going on for him. Not at all, no. So I guess we're getting to the point now of actually I did just want to add 1 little bit in here.

57:53 So this was all happening in the lead up to the Sydney Olympics. And so this was during the time that the Sydney Olympic torch relay was going around the country. Do you remember where did you see the Olympic torch? Yes, yeah. So I remember it came past my house. Oh yeah, right. So. We had like family and friends over and we made a day of it. The torch actually came past our house. It was a big deal. I remember it very vividly. And anyway, so Princess Anne was actually out here for that reason, because she was here to, I don't know, 'cause.

58:28 She was, yeah, out here for the the relay. The relay, yeah. And so she actually diverted. She was in Queensland at the time. She diverted her to whatever itinerary itinerary to go to Childers in the aftermath of this and thank the first responders and to everybody, and to have a chat with the survivors who were still in town at the time. I think she arrived maybe five days after the fire. And it was such a big deal. And, you know, for something like that to happen to a town like Childers with such a massive thing.

59:03 And it really, I mean, they had a really beautiful sense of community as it was. But having a royal visit just really sort of it really helped the town start to get the ball moving in terms of how they were going to rebuild and how they were going to sort this out. Because this had such a negative impact on the town, not only for the fact of the fire and the loss of life and you know, all of the trauma that came upon the town because of that, but it certainly still to tourism. It certainly meant that there weren't people, you know, jumping at the chance to go and stay at backpackers or do fruit picking in that.

59:41 Area and they need those workers, absolutely. That's it. So tourism to the area, tourism to Australia as a whole took a really big hit because of this. And I think it's, you know, in situations like this, the actions of one man, 1 deranged lunatic of a bloke had really the far reaching consequences of this. People didn't want to come to Australia and stay in a backpackers for the actions of 1 lone fuck wit. Yeah, although I mean it highlighted another issue. Yep. It being the fact that, and there were regulations in place in 2000 for sure in terms of, Oh yeah, fire prevention and alarms and things like that in buildings, especially those where people were, you know, staying at, at volume like that in a hotel, etcetera.

1:00:33 However, it highlighted that there's, there were glitches in their system in checking these things and making sure that they were in working order, yeah, at all times. And that to not be complacent and sort of go, oh, that had never happened to us because that's pretty much what happened here. There were, there were checks done on this building, but they weren't, wasn't follow through on ensuring that, for example, the exit lights that didn't light up, those batteries should have been replaced on a regular basis.

1:01:00 There had been people out checking the building who had caught had said they need to be replaced, but then no follow up on that being done. So there was an alarm system, a fire alarm system in the building. However, it had been malfunctioning. They'd had multiple electricians out to work on it, and it would they'd they'd fix something, play around with something, and then the next thing it would malfunction again. So by malfunction, what actually happened was it would go off. Yeah, it would like that the whole would go off.

1:01:27 Yeah, false. You know, alarms going off and so it got to the point where the owners of it of the establishment at the time will let fuck it, turn it off. Because. We can't get this working. They needed to send two parts off to some specialist place to have it reviewed. Although they had also had a quote done to replace the entire system, which would would have cost them $12,000. Yeah, and they had actually I think signed off on that occurring. But we're not rushing on getting it done. OK, I didn't know that.

1:02:00 Yeah, I believe that that was the case. OK. It was definitely a quote of $12,000 to entirely redo the the system. OK I I knew there was a quote for $12,000. I didn't realise they'd actually taken it. I believe. To actually get it done. OK, but it hadn't been done all. Week it hadn't been done of the fire no no. Oh, wow. So there were a number of issues then that highlighted that since then there's been inquiries and things around this. Yeah, that has definitely made huge impacts on the implications for these things and people getting fined or whatever and not have for not having these things in place.

1:02:36 So now that fire, smoke alarms have to be in every every room and all these sorts of things, so. Have to have battery backup. The batteries need to be placed on a replaced on a regular schedule. They need to be checked by a certified fire authority. Yeah, there's now like you know, on top of that it's if you get a an inspection and found to be not meeting these current requirements, there's actually consequences that are followed through on. Whereas that's part of this was that they weren't followed through on afterwards when they were found to be not right.

1:03:03 The other thing that was found was the occupancy level. Yes, even though 53 people was the recommended amount and obviously there were 88 people staying there, but again, that wasn't closely monitored by anyone and they'd been doing it for the century that had been opened. They'd been, you know, over. Capacity over capacity that's I mean that's not even a little bit over capacity. I mean, that's. Double evil. It's. Double, but it's by them putting in those bunk, you know, situations and putting in a triple bunks and things and going well, you know, instead of one person sleeping here, we get 3 in.

1:03:32 It seems insane. But I mean, look, in a town like that. There was clearly need for that many people, you know, to like be work, be working in these farms, etcetera. But they just needed to find a bigger space or a build, have another build, have another backpackers in the area. I don't know. Yes, so after this, after it built, after it burnt down, a memorial was erected in yeah space and another backpackers was actually built behind it. So there is a new children's backpackers hostel. Yeah, that's built on a vacant lot behind there.

1:04:03 So yeah, they there was space that they could have potentially gone. Into but I mean that costs money, doesn't it? Like. Everything that's right. Yeah, that's exactly right. So I guess we'll get to the charges. Yeah, so. Long was charged now with only two murders and arson, and it went to trial based on this. Now, there's a lot of nuance to this, and I think I can totally understand from the family's perspectives that this is not fair and not just, but I also do understand why the prosecutor went down this path.

1:04:41 So they decided to only pursue a murder charge for the twins. The Australian twins named I believe it was Stacy, Kelly and Kelly. Slack. Slack, thank you. Sorry I I do have their names written down. They the reason being they were able to obtain DNA from because these girls were from WA I think and they were able to get DNA and prove that the bodies belong to them. They also decided to withhold charges for the other murders because if they went for all of them in one go and he was found not guilty because we have the double jeopardy laws in Australia, they wouldn't have then been able to try again.

1:05:31 Exactly. So that that side of it kind of makes a lot of sense to me. Same. It was like a backup system. It was a backup system, so they had obviously another 13 people they could potentially pursue to for a murder charge if the first wasn't successful. Yes, it was successful. He was sentenced to 20 years in prison for the murders of those two girls. Unfortunately he was also, fortunately, in one way, I guess, he was also given the highest ever arson sentence of 15 years. At the time it was the highest that had ever been given out in an Australian court for arson, 15 years.

1:06:11 But because of the way our laws, our system works, he was to serve that concurrently with his murder conviction, which I think is so fucking fucked. Well, the way they just the way they sort of clarify this as to why that's the case is that the court actually treated it, the act of the arson as causing the death, not that he was attempting to murder 88 people. Like, yeah. And I completely, I don't, I don't agree with this. I'm not saying it, but like, this is that's how it got it was basically it wasn't intentional murder.

1:06:48 It was arson that happened to just in inadvertently cause death, which so these were the words from the judge. Death was such an inevitability in the circumstances that to light those those fires displays callousness, cruelty that is, that is hard to imagine. In other words, even without premeditated intent, the predictable and horrific consequences made the ACT extraordinarily heinous. Yeah. So, yeah. And I the thing. Sorry. They were his words. However, he has sentenced based on that, that act of arson not being intentional murder.

1:07:25 I just think it's so fucked up. Absolutely. So how could you have not assumed in lighting that fire that it wasn't going to cause? Death. No attempted murder on the other 70, however. Me. Exactly. That's and I get OK the other side of the. Murder. He's. Totally. And I get, I get it from one perspective of a legal system that one of the other reasons why they only went for the two murders was to expedite this in terms I can understand that it can become very, a very long trial, very drawn out, very confusing when you start adding more and more people to like trying to get convictions on.

1:07:59 I am. I do get that. I'm not saying I don't like the way they went about. It no I understand why they did that, then the sentencing needs to take it into account. OK, if you think so. He was essentially sentenced to 20 years in prison, right? For the murder, 15 people. The attempted murder? Well, he wasn't even charged with attempted murder, No. Then that's like what, 1.2 years per person they killed? Like that's so woefully inadequate. Yes, it's disgusting. Well, because what I don't understand then is OK, he was convicted of this and yeah, that's great.

1:08:33 Like he was convicted of it sentence not really equalling the crime. OK, so let's say why wasn't he then convicted of those? And we've got we've got him for 20 years minimum. Why was he not then further charged? Yeah, with attempted murder and other one and other murders. Yeah. I don't understand why we haven't piled on like, yeah, like we're talking at the moment about the mushroom, you know, Lady and Aaron Madison and the fact that there's potentially other charges. I love the charges that might come.

1:09:04 Why is this guy not being further charged? I did see some commentary about this, right? I don't know. I don't know. It didn't come from the prosecution, so I don't know whether this was opinion or not. I assume it was opinion based on these facts, but I think it was it had something to do with the fact that it wasn't in the public interest to spend the money to do that. But I don't think that's true. I mean, think about the families, think about the victims families who didn't get the justice for their family member.

1:09:33 How? Guilty. Would the twins family feel that they're the only ones who maybe did get justice? Do you know what I mean? Like, I would feel either way. I feel like there's no win there. Dad, Yeah. Did you see? Did you see? I think it was on a 60 minutes maybe they did a 20 year special on this. Did you see? That I haven't. Didn't watch all of it. Yeah, watching. It he, Oh my God, he got me. Oh. I've read I've read quotes from him but I haven't seen like. He's a beautiful man and the fact that he he's had to live his life, Many of these families have had to live their lives without their.

1:10:07 The twins were their youngest children and like the absolute world, and they've lost both their children. Like both. Their daughters like 22 at the time, you know, the world was their oyster. Absolutely. They were, you know, exploring Australia together. And I just like, I actually can't even imagine it. No. So in July of 2006, an inquest was, was held, yes, in relation to this. And evidence was given that day and for the next two days there were 20 witnesses and 440 exhibits tended. So it was, it was interesting what they found.

1:10:44 They basically found that the room 7, which is the room where most, I think 10 people died. 10 people. Seven. Yeah. That the fact that there were security bars on the windows and the fact that, yeah, you're right, the door had been nailed shut. There was no. There was only one one exit point that was really difficult to find because of the layout of the room. And because they also, one of they were talking about the fact that when they did get out, there was like on the wall, like an evacuation plan.

1:11:12 They couldn't even read it and see it. Like they couldn't see it because it wasn't lit up how it was supposed to be because all these backup battery ones didn't light up. So yeah, it was so many things wrong. Yeah. Sometime between the 15th and 26th of May in 2000, so like a month before basically the fire, the alarm system was turned off due to being faulty. the IT remained off obviously on the on the day of the fire, the what you're alluding to before with the inspection. So they had a fire inspection company who would come and do all of the checks.

1:11:49 They'd noted several on several previous visits, things that hadn't been, hadn't been kept up to code, but had never then followed that through. They hadn't even notified the authorities about it. Where, where that was really their responsibility. So there's so much so much that has gone into this and and I think we find this in a lot of these cases where so many things add up to catastrophic event. You know, if there had of been working smoke alarms, if there had of been illuminated exit signs, if there had of been, you know, the occupancy of the place had of been actually at, you know, kept to the limit that it was at.

1:12:34 So many things could have either reduced the number of casualties or possibly even prevented the catastrophic nature of what ended up happening. Yeah. So in the investigation into. So this was part of the inquest, They looked into how they investigated Robert Long. And the investigator said that they knew he was in the area after the fire because he'd used his EFTPOS card. Yeah. The witness, there were witnesses who'd seen him in the coffee shop across the road the next morning, like. Just watching what's wrong?

1:13:06 Isn't that crazy as? Fuck. There's also a guy, the guy that witnessed him in downstairs with the fire, he actually also smelt the petrol, yeah, smell. So putting him in that room with the accelerant also, you know, went towards that, yeah. Yeah, oh, there's, there's so much, so much here. Also awesome. You spoke, you've already spoken about him wanting the door left open, saying that he's got the key anyway and Oh yeah, it's just, there's just so much to this, to this inquest. But I just wanted to talk about the FIRE investigation report.

1:13:43 Yep. So the report identified the following factors. I'm reading this verbatim from the report that may have continued the smoke smoke alarm system being disabled. The electrical connection that was tested has fat was found to have been corroded by water so and that was never replaced by the electricians. The illuminated exit signs didn't function. But as you mentioned the battery, the backup batteries hadn't been changed since 1993. Yeah, seven years earlier. Yeah, like it just, it blows. All this shit blows my mind.

1:14:20 Yeah, the the managers of the so there was the owner of Childers and there was 2 managers and they lived on site, right. So they lived actually not far from room 7, which was the worst cop. They both survived and got out. Yeah, now they. Knew the place like the back of the. Absolutely. In the inquest they were asked to give evidence and they refused to give evidence due to the fact that they would incriminate themselves. Yeah, and that that was their right. That was their right, but I don't feel like it should be their right.

1:14:48 But you know what the you know what the coroner found though at the inquest. Hold on, let me get that bit up. In my view it while it would have been far preferable had the operators had in place an adequate fire warning system and had removed the obstructions from the escape routes, I do not consider a jury could reasonably find that the conduct of the operators was so derelict as to amount to criminal negligence. So that was the State Coroner, Michael Barnes said that in his report that was released on the 7th of July in 2000.

1:15:25 And six, I just can't come at that, actually. Nor can I. I just find that that they they were negligent. I really do think they were. I mean, look, at the end of the day, this is on Robert Long. I you know not not. But we're talking about potential reduction in loss of life. Absolutely, they said certainly, yeah. I mean, more people could have got out, more people could have been a note they could be notified earlier and therefore being able to get out. So I really feel like this was double layered in that in that sense, 100% Robert Long needs to rot in jail.

1:15:57 No question. He is at the main culprit here. But there is definitely other people who need to be held accountable for this. And I go as far as the electricians, yeah. Like, I do think that they should be held accountable, even they they should have been more on top of this of like what needed to be done to fix that system, you know? I mean, so there was a class action suit put together by those about 60 survivors after the inquest was done in the December of that that year. Once it had been presented, they took out a civil claim.

1:16:27 And again, so it wasn't criminal negligence that they were going for there. More compensation was what all they could go for because the coroner had stated that they weren't negligent. Mm hmm. Which, yeah, I don't agree with, but there was a a decision on that. But it was done privately. Yeah. So we don't know what the outcome of it was, but obviously enough that those 60 survivors did decide to go ahead and take what they were offering. But I mean, I dare say it wasn't. Nothing would have been.

1:16:58 Nothing would compensate. And because they had to go through, there are other civil claims as well for those who were who were victims, for the families of those that were killed in the fire. They're separate again of what that, but they're basically the the civil, the class action suit though it was targeted at the owners, the managers of childers, but also the council and also then there were the electricians etcetera were included in that. So they were all in on, they were all put into that category.

1:17:30 So I agree with them moving forward on a civil case for sure, but they should have been a criminal one as well. I. I fully agree. I fully agree. Yeah, the cause of death as outlined in the inquest was that all deceased died of smoke inhalation due to fire. Yeah. Smoke inhalation occurs when you breathe in the products of combustion during a fire. Carbon monoxide is a chemical produced as a result of combustion. Carbon monoxide poisoning is the usual mechanism of death in fatal smoke inhalation in a house or structural fire.

1:18:02 Carbon monoxide combines with hemoglobin, resulting in carboxyhemoglobin. Most victims succumb to the asphyxia effect of carbon monoxide long before the flames and heat affect the body. Thank fuck yeah. Blood taken at autopsy is analyzed for carbon monoxide content and the result expressed as a percentage of the hemoglobin which is saturated with carbon monoxide. The lethal concentration of carboxyhemoglobin saturation is generally considered to be greater than 50%, and all of the victims had a carboxyhemoglobin aside from All by one.

1:18:35 All by one, Yeah, Had a carboxyhemoglobin level of over 50. They were. They ranked between like 61% and 85%. It was insane. Someone, someone noted. So one of the survivors noted that they took one breath when they went. Well, so they opened their door, they went into the corridor. They took one breath. And he said he knew, Yeah, if he took another breath, he'd be dead. He had to hold his breath until he got outside. That's inside. Yeah. Oh, that's awful. God. Unbelievable. Yeah, absolutely unbelievable.

1:19:08 So, yeah, there was one that I believe, and The thing is we don't know for sure. I, I think I, I maybe miss, I may misunderstand this, but I believe we don't know his level of carbon monoxide poisoning due to the fact of how his remains were found. He was the hardest to identify. Is he the? One found under the window. He was downstairs. He was the guy from Morocco. Oh, yes. OK. Yeah. So I believe we don't know what his smoke inhalation levels were, because his body was he. He did. His body was in the flames.

1:19:43 So what that did to his body to be able to get any reading, I guess maybe, Yeah. I think that's the only reason we don't know which one, which way he went. Yeah. Yeah. Awful. So. We maybe at this point like name all the victims. Yeah, I think so. So we've got twins Stacey Louise and Kelly June Slark, aged 22, from Australia. Sebastian Westerville, 22, from the Netherlands. We had Sarah Ann Williams, 23, from England. And also from England, Michael Ernest Lewis, who was 25. As well as from England, we've also got Claire Louise Webb, 24, and Natalie Morris, who was 18.

1:20:27 Oh, sorry, more from England Gary John Sutton, who was 24. Melissa Jane Smith, who was 26. And Adam John Rowland was also from. He was two, sorry, down first down my list. We then had Jolly van der Velden, 23, from the Netherlands, at Suski Toyona, 31, from Japan. Julie O'Keefe, who is 24, from Ireland. Hui Kyong Li from Korea, O23, aged. 23 The last victim was Mulay Lahin Lalawi Kamal. He was 48 and he was from Morocco and he was the one that was, yeah, he was really hard to identify. Yeah, really, really tragic.

1:21:12 The, the fact that, I mean, these people from all over the world have been impacted from this. I mean, there's, it's hard to get some information about these victims because I'm culturally they, they, you know, they, they, they don't, they wanted to be very private and all those sorts of things. So there's different perspectives from, you know, where they come from as well. So many layers to all of that. Yeah. But these families were they were not here with them. They were so far away when all this happened.

1:21:37 So it's just absolutely tragic. You know, these these young people and you know, that we're all doing what they wanted to do and experiencing life and getting out in the world, doing something that was fun and also true adventurous, all those great things that, you know, people should do at these this point in their life. You know, there's so many varying reasons as to why they were doing what they were doing. Yeah. And to have this be what ended their life, it's just absolutely so tragic. There were some countries who sent consular officials to help their foreign, to help their nationals.

1:22:10 And so, for example, Japan, they really embraced, embraced their people who were there. But then there were other, you know, other victims who didn't necessarily have that same support, had to wait for family to arrive. They had to, you know, they had to reapply for passports. They couldn't even get out of the country. They couldn't go home quickly. It was just. Yeah. So, you know, even just in that very immediate aftermath, it was so much going on. It's in the years that followed that a lot of them started to process their trauma and what happened to them, how they escaped.

1:22:48 There was a lot of survivor guilt. I've listened to a podcast. It's actually fantastic. If you want a long form podcast on this, it's called Childers. The full story. Yeah. And it was. Anyway, it's it's definitely worth a listener. Yeah, he was. He was a journalist who was on this. It was actually one of his very early days of like he. Was reporting 5th day of his fifth week as a. Journal. Yeah. He, yeah, got into this and was like, and at the time reporting on it and reflected back later going actually, you know what?

1:23:19 There's more about this children's story I need to tell. And that's why he's done this podcast, which is fascinating. It's really good. Yeah. I I love to though. Like we think Karl Stefanovic, this was his first gig too. Like for the Today, was it for the Today show? It was his first Channel 9, Channel 9. Gig Yeah, yeah. So like he, he. Was literally a week. Very young faced Pastefanovic there, like, yeah, So I I like, yeah, a lot of young journalists ran this, you know, with this story. But he was more the other guy, the guy that did the podcast.

1:23:46 He was much more of a local from sort of that area. And he said, like, typically he would do like a couple of stories a day. Yeah, or five. I think he talked about even potentially would go and travel around and sort of pick up these little stories. And he said he'd been to Childers a few times to do the feel good stories, you know, of like, you know, something going on, like someone had, you know, knitted the longest, like, you know, scarf or something. Whereas this was a completely different style of even journalism that he was used to.

1:24:11 Yeah. Because this was so full on. And he said this was the only story they were running and it was the only story he was telling because it needed all of all of that to be told all the time. Yeah, So his name is Paul Cochran. Yeah, he he's, yeah, he's the series. He's the podcast that he's made is really. Really. Yeah. I haven't listened to the whole thing either, but like, I was really into it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, good. So that's probably. Do you have anything else that you wanted to add in? There's, there's a lot of extra details and stuff that if you listen to that podcast, you can absolutely get a lot more of the like nitty gritty detail of it all.

1:24:45 And to hear accounts from survivors and, and it's, it's interesting hearing from people in the first person, they, they lived experience and what they remember and what they don't remember. That's what I found really fascinating. He was asked, he would ask them questions like, oh, So what did you do? How did that happen? The mechanism by which they got out and that kind of thing, and a lot of them don't. Remember, no, they just. I got out but I don't know how. I'm like, I don't. Know I don't know where I was.

1:25:11 I don't even remember. What I guess that's a bit of that smoke inhalation effect like kind of thing too that that was starting to take effect. I guess it does mess with you, yeah. But yeah, just. Actually, another thing I did want to raise in this, I think this just is more to how this town changed in an instant because of this fire. One of the survivors remembered a refrigerated room coming in and that was the makeshift morphs. And he remembers seeing bodies being craned out of the wreck because they they couldn't send people in to get the bodies because structurally there was, it was, the place was.

1:25:51 Far well I believe that on the like the day after the fire there was I feel it was the mayor maybe had gone in definitely the police chief sort of thing they'd gone in to sort of start kind of trying to look for things and the roof collapsed in on top of them literally like went right in front of them like and collapsed so it was very very dangerous to be in there the. Roof. So even though there were these three buildings, they were all under one tin roof. Yeah, and because it was so hot, there's photos of the tin roof and it looks like molten metal.

1:26:24 Like it. It looks like drippy molten metal, like it's it's insane. Yeah, that shows the heat of it, too. So, yeah, they had to crane the bodies out because it wasn't safe to send people in. Oh my God, I can't even imagine. And to have, you know, to have to bring in a makeshift more because, yeah, they had 15 bodies they needed to contend with to. Just. Just. Can't even absolutely awful. There's obviously the, the building has been rebuilt, but is now, well, it's an Information Centre on the bottom ground and the top level is now a memorial.

1:27:00 There's this glass piece that was shipped in from, I believe Japan and, and has been put in there. And they've got actually a glass cabinet that contains like things that the survivor's family, I'm sorry, the victims families have sent to them to be used in the, in this memorial to represent them and things like that. So little personal belongings and stuff that are contained in these glass cabinets and a beautiful more mural painted of all of the the victims. And so the family sent in photos of them to be able to be depicted in this, in this and this mural.

1:27:36 And it's, I've seen pictures of it, I've seen it live, but it is really stunning. And really under the artist commented, it was the most definitely the most, you know, impactful emotionally to to paint and be feel, be, to be a part of that, to represent those families. Yeah. So it's really, really, I think apparently it's had over 1,000,000 visitors there in the last few in the last 20 years. And it is quite moving to see. So if you are passing through the area, it is worth stopping by and having a moment.

1:28:05 Yeah, to visit that, I've heard that. So in order to maintain that the IT really needs the the council's support to maintain the memorial because obviously there's costs associated with it. And and so they say if you go there, make sure you sign the visitors book because the more people that come and bring, you know, it brings people to the area. Yeah, which absolutely needed in the aftermath, Yes of all of this and yeah, let let people. Know that you've been there the community rallied and supported these people at the time and as a you know, we should rally and community and support these the the community now they need it, as you know.

1:28:41 Yeah, in general, I think too. And to thank them for doing that. I mean, I know that all the survivors that the one of the first things that they all do comment around is that how amazing using the town got behind them and supported them that I mean, that doesn't happen everywhere to that extent. Like they they literally became family and, you know, in that town and they made sure they need had everything they needed. So yeah, I think that that's that's absolutely beautiful. And that to encourage more of that if when there's things that go on that we all get behind people is really, really special and really important.

1:29:11 I know that for the big dates, so the big anniversary dates, not only survivors attend, but victims families often attend as well. And it's a really sort of, I guess it's a way for them to come together and a reason for them to come together and and support one another still to these dates. You know, 25 years. It might be worth mentioning too that I believe it was around about the 20 year mark anniversary pretty much to the day the building that they sent the the survivors to where it was a new community centre that had been built and they'd open that up to them burnt down.

1:29:46 I know. I mean I. Know how do they change it? That just is insane to me to think that that and then and no no arson involved in this they complete freak thing yeah but that just is crazy yeah Oh yeah crazy so the town's been through enough like Oh yeah yeah I. Think that's enough? Totally. I think that's enough for sure. Oh, gosh, for sure. All right. I'm trying to find what we're doing. Next week we are going to be talking about Cherie Beasley. This one is too close to home for me. Yeah. It is this.

1:30:23 Oh, because. Oh my God. Oh, yeah. OK. All right. Yeah, for that one. Everybody. Again, thank you very much for joining us. If you'd like to buy us a coffee, you can do so. Buy me a coffee.com/two Crumbesties. Our Patreon is patreon.com/two Crumbesties. And please join us over on the socials, like, comment, share, follow all of the things. We really appreciate the support and it really helps us to get our podcast out to more people. Yes. Thank you everybody. Thank you very much. Stay curious. Crime besties.

1:30:55 Bye.