Episode 52 - Peter Falconio & Joanne Lees

0:15 Welcome back to Chrome Besties. We are here for another episode. Meg, how are you doing? Ah, we're kicking along Yeah, we're getting there. We're getting there. What a week it's been and and for you 2 so. Yeah, we've had sickness go through our house. I think it's just been through everyone's houses in the last week or two. There is so much going around and so much going around the school. We had notification there's influenza going around and you've got a kid on camp at the minute and apparently there's been a bit of an outbreak there.

0:44 Just been waiting for the phone call to drive like an hour and a half two hours away to go and pick someone up. It was a bit funny yes. So we had phone call message from one of our friends saying they were going going down to pick him up, you know, and she she said. So let me know if any of you get a phone call, old carpool and bring the old back back too.

1:01 At least that's something that might have saved you a. Drunk I thought wouldn't be the worst. If she's on her way back and you get the phone call, go on my way to now. Yeah, yeah, I mean, I guess if your kids feeling sick note though, they probably. Want, they want them out there. Yeah. It's just one of those things, isn't it? Like entirely. It's just, I don't know, it's a hard one because of course the kids wanna go on camp, but if you're sick, you're sick. Yeah, that's exactly right. Oh my goodness.

1:29 I wonder how many of the grade fours will be at school next. Week. Oh, I know, I mean, I was actually my youngest has got to buy for basketball this weekend. Oh, that's fucky. Which I was like, oh, wish it was Mason for that reason. Yeah, but actually it's not it's well, it's not as bad as it in terms like because he's always the the earlier game. Yeah, that I thought, oh, at least though Mason can sleep in on Saturday morning. We're not rushing out to get to that early game and he can play then at like 11:00, whatever he's playing.

1:56 But then it's 40 on Sundays. It's like can't have early mornings, you know, can't, can't sleep in. You've got early morning still. So yeah, we'll see who's there on Monday. Yeah, that's it. That's it. We'll see it. Yeah, that's just that time of year, isn't it? It's just. Horrible. Yeah, and then I've been seeing posts from people who are like over in Europe and having beautiful. Times. Excuse me, that's just rude. Keep it to yourself. Yeah, I think one of our friends is heading to the great to Greece very soon.

2:24 Yeah, I'm a bit jealous, totally. Jelly. Yeah. I mean, Oh yes, I could. I could. I would love to spend a day just sunning myself anywhere warm. Wouldn't that make you feel better? I think so. I think so. A bit of vitamin D never went astray. Yeah, I mean, look at the sun is out, it's out here, but it's oh, very chilly. Yeah, yeah. It is, it is. It's very cold. Aside from that, have you had an OK week? Yeah, well, yeah, with sick ones at home and stuff, I feel like I've had like one of those weeks where I just haven't achieved anything I needed to and just running around after others.

2:56 But yeah, pretty good week. Yeah, just kicking along. As I say, it's all got it all. We can do it this time of year, I reckon. Yeah, I think we're hanging a bit for those school holidays. Well, I know I am because I get the time off. But yeah, at least it's it is actually a break for me, whereas I know other people it makes it even harder. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, some things about school holidays are easier. I love not having to make a lunch. Box. That is my favorite thing on that last day show and packing up the lunch boxes and putting them away.

3:23 Yes, absolutely. This morning, because I haven't been all that well. Normally I do lunch boxes the night before, but I haven't been. I just haven't had any energy. And this morning only Oliver went to school. Lucas is homesick as well. And Oliver was like, Mum, don't worry, I'll take care of my lunch box. I'm like, oh, I feel like I need to supervise this because otherwise it'll be like Skittles and twisties and. Whatever else. Oh things. Cause no, he'd be putting in there some pretty delish things.

3:55 Alright, well, so this is what he ended up with. Yeah. He had cucumber for brain food. Nice. And then he had olives. Just olives. Normally I do olives and bocconcini and a cherry tomato on a stick. That's like he just. Did olives because he couldn't be bothered getting the other things out. OK, fine. And Mandarin. He decided to give himself some hot dogs. Like, look, you know, those mini cocktail Franks which had been in the freezer for God only knows how long, but he found them. I'm like, OK, let's hope that works out.

4:25 All right. Yeah. And then he had some cheese, a few, like, packet things, like, I don't even know what it was. In the end, I'm like, oh, that's actually not too bad. It's not bad. He did all right. Yeah. And I didn't have the energy to care, really. No, not. Much about it so. I know I often do the whole like I should do like be like that parent and do like a thing of like you need to have an option of one of these or an option of one of these, you know, kind of thing and fill your lunch boxes and they can fill them themselves, but they've got to meet that criteria of, you know, and I'm like, oh God, if I had the time to fucking make.

4:59 And then? Supervise, You know, a fridge magnet thing with that. Exactly. I'd love to do that and have the boys doing their own lunch boxes, but at this point in time it's just fucking easy for me to do it myself. Absolutely. Yeah, he did make me breakfast this morning because he was making something that he thought I might like. And he was actually it. Was actually delicious. It was he made like yogurt. Yogurt granola bottles. Yum. Fresh raspberries and passion fruit like syrup. You know there's.

5:25 Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It was absolutely delicious. Oh, so nice. When's he making my breakfast? Yeah. So, well, maybe I need to be sick more often. I'm liking. It totally. Oh my gosh. Chef Oliver to the rescue. Yeah, yeah, I see it. He's so curious. Gosh, that's so good. It's funny. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know. Make it through the episode though, you reckon? Make it through. I just said to you before we started though, if I have to blow my nose I'm so sorry but I cannot help it. I just took an antihistamine before we started because I was hoping that might dry things up.

5:59 That's not. That's not a bad idea. So we'll see how I feel like it might actually be working. So, and maybe with all the talking, I know the nose will stop. I don't know. Oh, good. We'll see how we go. Oh good, we can edit out nose wiping. You're not gonna start every, you know, edit with me with the tissues shoved up my nose. Well. Try not to. I do have a couple of shout outs for today. So I've got Donna Lesko and Michelle Walker who both bought us coffees in the last week or so. Thank you to everybody who does that, to everybody who's subscribed, followed, commented.

6:33 We've actually had a record number of comments this week on Spotify. So people who comment through the app that really helps our our show be then recommended to more people. Like I noticed we've had had a few extra listeners based on that this week. So yeah, all of those things really, really helps or keep it coming. And we love the things that people are introducing. We've had people with case suggestions, people like just with comments on episodes wanting to catch up and and say hi, like do it.

7:04 We love it. We absolutely love it. So good, I know. We actually had a recommendation last night. Well, no recommendation is such almost just when are we going to? Because I said yes, we will definitely do it because that's the Karen Reed case. Oh yeah. Which yesterday came out with a not guilty verdict for her finally. And I'm like, Oh yeah, that is a a great one. But we need to let us settle a little bit because there's many interviews. We're going to get information. I want the jury. Yeah, the jurors over there can come out and talk as well.

7:36 So that'll be interesting, but more so even really just is there gonna be any follow up for this? Because obviously if she didn't do it, then who did? Yeah. That's it. Where are we going from here? I think which the. FBI need to get involved surely? For sure now now there's no excuse for them if I. Judge, holy crap, so biased so much. It's a it's oh God, yeah, it's not good. It's. It's a very interesting judicial system, isn't it? Yeah, it's, yeah, it's bizarre. But anyway, we will do that. We will absolutely cover that case.

8:08 Yeah. The other one that's been really in the media here is the mushroom. We I know we talked about that in last week's episode. I thought we'd have a verdict by saying like, well, by now we may actually in reality of like when this is. Released where I would say. Our recording of this week, well, I think we'll have one early next week. I think that's my guidance. I think so too. So we're recording this on the 20th of June, so let's just wait and see. I'm hoping. I'm sure by the time this comes out we'll have a verdict.

8:33 Sure, and because that's another one that definitely will be speeding up the list to cover when that, Oh yeah, is done and dusted. Oh. Yeah. Oh wow, that one. Interesting one. I love it. Yeah. I love the daily, the daily listen. To that one, and I'm a little bit behind at the moment, which crazy. I shouldn't be because it's all happening, it's all finishing. I was all wrapping up and everything. And then I'm like, oh God, I want to hear what the closing arguments have been. They've been really, really good.

8:58 Like the prosecution's closing? Argument, I swear. Well, theirs was fairly short and sweet really in that they were very succinct, whereas the defense one has gone on for days. Yeah, because they're trying to introduce as much conjecture and yeah, possible.

9:15 Ohh. What's the word I'm looking for? Like, well, reasonable doubt. Reasonable doubt. Yeah, as much as possible. But anyway, we'll see. We'll see. Comment below. What do you think? Yeah, it hasn't already come out. Or if it has come out, let us know. Do they get it right? Yeah. Do they? Yeah, This is it. Yeah, Yeah. Oh, so interesting. Yeah, so today we're covering the case of, well, the disappearance and presumed murder of Peter Falconio. Yeah. By Bradley John Murdoch. And so Peter Falconio's girlfriend was with him at the time, Joanne Leigh's.

9:48 Do you remember when this happened, like, as in your living memory? Absolutely. I'm the same. And I remember at the time, I was so fascinated by so many aspects of this case. And then revisiting it now to like, you know, probably, what, 20 years later? Yeah. To research for today. It really brought back a lot of things that I thought I knew. And then now it's also raised, like, different ideas and different things for me. Did you find that too? Definitely. Actually really weirdly enough, I think for when this happened, like obviously I remember it being a little bit, you know, like, oh, who did it, who did it, like kind of stuff.

10:28 And and then I, but I remember that there was a kid, someone convicted. And in my mind I was coming at this of like, you know, someone's been convicted and Yep, Yep, done. And now doing all the research in it, kind of and taking into account everyone's perspectives. Yeah. And, you know, I mean, just intrigued to hear where you land after all that, that I hadn't. I hadn't realized just how much conjecture there was around this conviction, you know, and that people do have opinions. I knew everyone had an opinion on her, and I knew that that was a thing.

10:57 But I didn't realize how to what extent people have a strong opinion on this being one way or the other when there's been someone convicted of this. Yeah. It's really interesting and I feel exactly the same way. I thought the same thing. I thought, well, this is gonna be one of those things where it's open and shut with there's no. I thought we'll just tell the case today, yeah. That's right. There's not gonna be a huge amount to discuss about it. Really. Yeah. Turns out not quite. Yeah, there's lots of things to be looked at here and see what people's thoughts are where you land.

11:30 Yep, Yep, for sure. And it also depends like who you've listened to and what you've watched in relation to. So many of this where like the little, little bits around it that you go, oh, there's that. And then you hear someone else's perspective and then someone else and someone else's. And everyone's got a different story on it. For example, the T-shirt she wore. Yeah, which seems so insignificant. And it really is, at the end of the day, but the amount of different people's different opinions on who made those choices, yeah, is really interesting.

11:58 Yeah. All right. Should we get into? It let's get into. It okay, so the cases of missing and presumed murdered backpacker Peter Falconio. So he was a British tourist and he disappeared in a remote part of the Stewart Highway near Burrow Creek in the NT of Australia on the 14th of July in 2001. He was travelling with his girlfriend Joanne Leigh's at the time and he was 28 years of age. So he came from a very sort of loving working class family. His, you know, his brother has been quite prominent.

12:36 One of his brothers has been quite prominent in the media. And I think he's probably a face that's recognizable to a lot of Australians and British people in particular, who were, you know, probably the biggest consumers of of all of this, even though this made worldwide news. Yeah. And I mean, we look at it from obviously from the Australian perspective. We think it's a big case here. Apparently in in the UK, it's massive over there. Like, they really, like, they really did soak this story up and there was a lot in in the media over there.

13:07 I think part of that was because there were several backpacker incidents and murders that had happened in Australia around the same time. So there was the Port Arthur massacre, Yep, that had recently taken place. And then the Childer's Palace backpackers hostel fire, which was deliberately lit. And that's another category we will absolutely cover. So people, of course. Ivan Millat would have he begun. Yes, he had. Yes, he had. Yeah, Ivan Mletic begun his, you know, serial killings. Another case we need.

13:43 Oh yeah, we will go there. That'll be a. More. That'll be probably more than one episode. So, you know, this was a time where, I don't know, people were maybe slightly more cautious of coming to, to Australia to do the, the typical UK backpacker type of thing. That is a very well trodden path for British people because it's easy for them to get a working visa in Australia. The conditions have changed a little bit now in terms of what type of work they have to do in order to qualify for the visa.

14:18 But back then, I think they could get a visa for up to two years and travel around and work wherever they needed to for that time. So yeah, it's, it's a, yeah, it was a very well of so many British backpackers are around. And I mean, even even to this day you can go to, you know, we, we recently travelled to Outback SA and we found British backpackers everywhere working in hotels and pubs and that kind of thing. So that, you know, it's still something that people are doing to this day. Absolutely.

14:50 Yeah, Yeah, yeah. So Peter Marco Falconio was born on the 20th of September in 1972. He was the third of four sons to his mum and dad. They lived in Hepworth, West Yorkshire, in England in 1993. Sorry. In 1996, he started a relationship with Joanne Lees. I met in a nightclub. Yes, as as one as you used to back then she did No Tinder, no Tinder. Joanne Lees was born on the 25th of September in 1973. So her father was actually Australian, but she lived the first so. She didn't know him. She didn't know him, no.

15:28 She lived the first of her eleven years with her Jenny and her stepfather Vincent I believe his name was, and then they then went on to have a son I believe. So she had a stepbrother on 1/2 brother. No, sorry. Vincent had a son already. Named that he passed the. Road. So yeah, a stepbrother, yeah. And they lived in Huddersfield in Yorkshire, in England as well. Joanne, I think, did OK at school. I don't think that, you know, she was all that scholarly necessarily. When she finished school, she worked as a barmaid for a little while.

16:07 She worked in a bacon factory. Bacon factory? Yeah. But then packaging. Packaging bacon. I'm like, Can you imagine how bad you'd smell at the end of the day? I used to work at Subway. Yeah. And I would come home breaking of that. Bread. Fasting subway smell. Yeah. It was one of those things that you could never, you couldn't wash it out. No clothes. No. Oh God no Sir. Can you imagine the bacon fat that like or the bacon smell you? Wouldn't I never love bacon? Like I've said before, I could be vegetarian as long as I can eat bacon.

16:39 But to do that, no, I wouldn't eat bacon ever then. No, I don't think it would just turn your stomach. Yeah, yeah. Anyway, she did that for a little while, but then she actually stumbled upon a job working for a travel agency and she actually really developed, number one. She developed like really strong skills in that field and I think she was quite well regarded and it really developed a passion for travel in her. You know, she was planning lots of other people's holidays and decided that this was probably a good time for for her to start planning some holidays of her own.

17:18 Yes. And she'd been with Peter for a while, maybe a year or something. I think it could be even longer, maybe even. Longer three, yeah, OK yeah. And he went down to Brighton to study and she ended up getting a transfer from her job in Yorkshire down to or up to, Yeah, I know the geography. There down South, Brighton's right in the bottom right. Down to Brighton to work in the travel agent. Same travel agency, but down. There. So it was a serious relationship in that they were, she was moving herself all that way to maintain that relationship and they, you know, live together there.

17:57 And so they were very much, you know, on a path together, that's for sure. They were absolutely on a path. So they decided that they were going to spend about 12 months, I think, travelling and then the idea was that, I mean, Joanne thought that while they were in Australia she was going to get proposed to. Well, yeah, she sort of had this idea that they would most likely stop off on the way home and and get married. Yeah, yeah. Or at least be engaged by the time they went home. Yeah, kids and marriage were what their life plan was.

18:24 Absolutely. Yeah, but they wanted to get this year of travel out of the way first, which is completely fair because travelling with children is no joke. Forget. That. Well, it's a very different type of holiday. You wouldn't be able to, oh God no. Buy yourself a combi van and drive around. No. Outback of Australia with young kids, yeah, I think they well. Especially not the combi van they got. Oh for sure. Oh for sure. Which we'll get. To part of I guess this world trodden path of UK backpackers is, you know, travelling through Southeast Asia first.

18:55 So they had gone to Thailand, Singapore, Nepal, I think done a bit of trekking around Nepal, Singapore, Malaysia and Cambodia. And they ended up landing in Sydney in Australia and base themselves there. So this was a chance for them to sort of settle for a little bit, replenish some money because they obviously be, I think by this stage they've been travelling about 3 months throughout those other countries. And because they were allowed to work in Australia, it was a good opportunity to do so. So we spend more than you plan to, so always travelling.

19:29 Good opportunity, expensive even if you are back packing. Yes, I think they ended up renting a little apartment or a room in a in an apartment while they were in Sydney for for their well, what was originally planned to be 3 months. They ended up staying about 5. Yeah, and Joanne worked at a Dimmick's bookstore as a sales assistant and met some really, really good friends, like one in particular, one girl in particular who she really hit it up off with and and really became very good friends. Yeah, she was living life in Sydney.

20:01 She really enjoyed the lifestyle of where they what they were doing there and people she'd met. Yes. And the type of things that they were doing in their off time. So she liked, and I think this is the attraction to Sydney in particular or anywhere along the coast. She loved that Beachy lifestyle and the nice weather, nice people, very friendly people. She dabbled in the party scene when she was there. Not so much Peter, he wasn't really into that. And I guess that caused maybe a little bit of tension in their relationship and.

20:40 He was keen to keep moving on the travels and he was happy to. Stay there for the three months and move on where she really wanted to extend the stay in Sydney. But we found out later on she was keen to extend the stay in Sydney. But we found out later on that, like, I was actually during the trial for this case, that she'd actually had an affair with a man by the name of Steph at the well, well. We don't know the extent of the affair as well. His name was Nick, yeah, but used this pseudonym, Steph.

21:09 So he set up an e-mail address so that she could continue contacting him after she left Sydney without Peter knowing who that he was. She was contacting a guy. It looked like she was just emailing a female friend. But that's not what the case was, no. And they did maintain contact after they left Sydney. Yeah. When when we say affair, I don't think it was like a torrid thing. I think it was in the in the party scene. She'd met this. Guy, he's an Irishman. Yeah, they they apparently just got along very, very well.

21:41 Who can resist an Irish? Accent. Absolutely. I know. Yeah, actually from what she says of it, like, yeah, there was an attraction there, but she was. And look, from this, I sort of take this a little bit of like she was in a relationship where, yeah, the path was marriage and kids and she hadn't had a whole lot of other relationships prior to Peter and neither had Pete. So I think that this was a little bit of a test of their relationship of like, OK, am I this if you know, is this someone I want to explore things with or am I just enjoying some attention from someone?

22:16 Which because once you get into a relationship after a period of time, you kind of like it's not new and fresh anymore. And yeah, you're in a bit of a, you know, it's more of routine. So I do get a feeling it was a little bit of like, oh, I like this, you know, like fresh new feeling. But is it something I actually want to pursue or do I or am I serious with Pete? And I, I get the feeling that she was, the plan was that she was like, you know, I'm enjoying this, but I, I'm here for Pete. I I fully agree.

22:43 Yeah, I fully agree. I mean, for the fact that she left for the rest of their trip. Yeah, Peter, I think, you know, I I think that says everything. She enjoyed the bit of the flirt with it, you know, I really do. I don't know. There was all there's any more to to it really than that. Yeah, I agree. I mean, like, I've got friends who they met at like 16 and stuff and they ended up splitting up, you know, at one stage, you know, everyone was like, wait, what? Like they were just gonna be the couple that were together forever.

23:09 Yeah. And they split up for all of about 3 months and go back together and yeah, they married kids now and like solid as a as a Rock, You know, and you're like, well, yeah, people just need to need to know for sure. Sometimes that like I'm yeah, I'm this is he's the person for me. Yeah, Other people are intriguing and you know, it's nice to feel like that. But yeah, my long term partner is it, you know, is that 1? So I think she was just, I don't know. Yeah, I don't think. Peter ever found out about it or anything like that, so it never became a source of of conflict between them.

23:38 No. So they after the five months they jumped in there. So Peter as part of like towards the end of their stay in Sydney, it was his job to procure a vehicle. He. Was quite knowledgeable in cars. I think he was very handy in general, like he was a construct, like he was into construction work and that kind of thing. So he, I think he was very handy, Yeah. And he went to some used car market in some, I don't know, some like car park in Sydney. I'm like, yeah, people even find out about this. But I guess yeah.

24:08 Well, he talk among. Exactly. He'd been told basically like what he was doing was going through at the time was like, you know, the trading post, you know, the old school trading post sort of situation like and going and looking at these cars every other way every weekend, like looking at multiple cars. And someone said to him, don't do that, like go to the actual like auctions where they're all the ones spate one time and you can go and look at, you know, multiple cars at once and you might find something.

24:31 So yeah. And he found this one particular one which was for sale for $3000 and had done a massive trip already around Australia. And the owners were like, look, it's really reliable. You know, we've, we didn't have, you know, issues and things. And he did the once over it and he really liked it and was very set on it, but walked away and renegotiated the cut the price and ended up getting it for $1800. That's like significant. That's like nearly half. Past Well done, good work. That's that's quite a few beers at the at the pubs along the way.

25:00 Especially when you're backpacking. I mean that kind of money like to better, you know, manage that. So and like he knew the car wasn't perfect, but he knew he was handy enough to, you know, manage it kind of thing and see where it goes. So Joanne wasn't overly keen on the car because it was bright orange combi van. You know that they were going to be able to sleep in if they needed to, if they had to park, pull over on the side of the road and have that kind of facility. But it was pretty along the road.

25:25 They knew that there was going to be stretches of Rd. Where they would have to go a lot slower than the speed limit because the roads are very awful in some patches along that those big highways I. Think it had a top speed of 80 kilometres an hour, yeah, and you can go 110 plus yeah in the Outback, so. When there's no one else around surround. But the car was certainly not gonna be able to do that. So she and she did comment that, you know, there was a few occasions where it did backfire. So it was, you know, a fairly rusty old combi, that's for sure.

25:58 Yeah. But it was, I mean, heap of fun. Yeah, absolutely. But I mean, in the middle of, I have to say, I've done a bit of travel around these sorts of parts and through the Kimberley particularly, and I don't know if I'd want to go in it. Yeah. Because when you're out there, there's nothing else like. I think that's the thing that people don't it's it's almost unfathomable. You've got to be out there. You've got to go out there to understand. There is literally, yeah, nothing around. You can't. I mean, it's flat.

26:26 It's it's not like you know you're looking at would breakdown, but walk a few K yeah, and you'll find a town or something. Hundreds. No, no, no. Not thousands of kilometres away. Yeah, you're looking at you're dead. Yeah, it's, it's not. So I think recommendations when you're driving in that area is to have at least five to seven days of food and water with you at all times, because it actually literally can be that long between other people. Between towns potentially. Finding. You. Yeah. And obviously carrying fuel on board because again it can be 1000 like up to 1000 K's between fuel stops.

26:58 Yeah. So you have to be really, really well prepared. And then the other recommend. A lot of the other recommendations are to drive only during daylight hours. Definitely there's. So much wildlife out there. Like when I know I'm harping back to when we've, but it's just so, so in so much in my recent memory. Yeah, when we went to South Australia into the app back there, you know, there are emus, wild emus and Kangaroos. And at dusk and dawn, that's when they're out. And the amount of roadkill we saw now roadkill when you're driving a big 4 wheel drive is bad enough if when you're driving a fucking dinky little combi.

27:34 Any cart you're any, you know, in a very good, you know, 4 wheel drive. Yeah, well equipped 4 wheel drive, a kangaroo can take you out, absolutely. And. Like, they are so muscular. Yeah. And like, you think a kangaroo is like this cute little thing? No, no, no, no. They're huge. They're muscly. They can do so much. I mean they kill people all the time in in these situations in Rd. Accidents, yeah. In Rd. Accidents, yeah. People will often come off second best. Yeah. So, you know, the expanse of where they were travelling was, was crazy.

28:05 Yeah, They left Sydney, headed down for Melbourne in their little combi, had a bit of a, a tour around Melbourne and then headed towards SA. Yeah. And they were driving, you know, stopping at backpackers hostels and and little motels and stuff along the way. I'm trying to keep this, you know, as cheap as possible, I guess. Yeah, campgrounds and that kind of thing that they could stay at as well and sleep in the back of the combi. And they just stop every couple of days to replenish their food supply and petrol they were carrying on board to try and get them, get them through the next few days.

28:43 So what we know is I guess we get to the day of the incident now, really. Yeah, yeah. What we know is that on the evening of the 14th of July in 2001, they set off from the Barrow Creek Roadhouse. They'd been there, had a meal, and they were heading towards the Devil's Marbles. Now, during the day this they sort of headed off. Was it around 5:30 or 6:00? I think it was a little bit earlier than that, OK, but a lot later than anyone was suggesting they should be. Well, so that day they'd been to the Camel Cup races, Yeah.

29:23 So this is something that I mean, I wouldn't want to miss that either. No. People said to them, like, wait till tomorrow because, like, stay for this. It's really, you know, really. Well, they had no idea it was there. Yeah. And that this was going to be happening. And so they were like, well, don't miss it since you're here. Yeah, it's actually a really cool thing to. Yeah, but they were just really keen to get on the road, which in these sorts of conditions, in these places, that's just not safe.

29:45 Locals recommending recommending them not to travel at night. They ignored those. Unfortunately, ignored those. Which they weren't suggesting it for anything other than, you know, like Kangaroos, Kangaroos and Amy's and things like that. It was they weren't. They certainly didn't have this in their minds of what actually went on, I think. The other thing that's worth noting is like when it gets dark, it gets so this is Outback Australia. You think of the Outback and you think it's hot and toasty and you know all that.

30:13 And it is during the day, during the day, but at night. So this is in July, so this is in winter there. The temperatures can get very, very low. Yep, it's I'm talking freezing cold. It's really cold overnight. So, you know, yes, they've probably had a 35° day during the day when the sun's out. But yeah, overnight it can get get very, very cold. And so, and also because they're on the, so they, they were travelling from Alice Springs up the Stewart Highway towards Darwin to get to the Devil's Marbles.

30:45 So they were heading north. They were travelling, you know, into the darkness. Eventually, sort of maybe they left about 4:30 now that I think about. It yeah, I feel like it was. It was more like 4:30 in the afternoon, yeah. They've travelled out and you know by the time darkness hits you would be able to see literally nothing around you. The Stars pitch. Pitch Starling, but there is nothing else you see like. There is no light, no civilization. No. Road lights or anything like that. In fact, the roads are pretty dusty and well maintained, and you might not even see another car for the entire night.

31:24 That yeah, this is it. You may not see another single soul like it's, it's, it's so isolating out there. You have no idea until I think you're getting there. I mean, we thought we were middle of nowhere and you weren't sometimes, though, because you can't see what's out there. So we are travelling through the Kimberly one night and we didn't get as far as we hoped to get on our travels because, yeah, the road conditions can really affect you. And these are all the sorts things you got to take into account that sometimes roads with weather and you know, can have floods come through and all sorts of things that things can hold you up.

31:56 So we didn't get as far as we were hoping to. So we had to like pull over on the side of the road because it was getting dark. And we're like, we're sorry, we've got to stop travelling and pull over. And so we pulled over, just set up campsite on the side of the road basically. And we could not see a thing that was it gets dark like that. It's real quick too. So we were like, oh, we're right, we'll be right here. Just quickly set up here, set up camp. And as we we then get to bed that night, we're laying in bed and all we could hear in the distance was.

32:22 Oh my God, Will you come near a prison? Yeah. My girlfriend are laying there like we're like totally like going like Oh my God. Oh my God, Oh my God, we're gonna die because, you know, of course we watched Wolf Creek before we went and everything. Yeah, you're. Not idiot. Oh. My God, we're gonna die. We're gonna die. We didn't get any sleep that night to get back on the road the next morning. And then, yeah, as we get up to late, we finally got some light and opened up the tents. We realized that for probably about 200 meters off in the distance.

32:54 So was this prison? Oh yes. But they could see us because we had like we had a fire going and stuff. So they can obviously see something in the distance. And so that's why there were people yelling at. Oh my God, that is so scary though, because you can't see, you don't know what's around. No, you literally. That's when we were there as it was getting dark. We just did not see that there was this building off in the distance even like we thought it was just nothing. Oh my. God, well, I'm glad you came back from that experience a lot.

33:28 Funny now, but at the time I've never been so terrified in all my life. No, thank you. No. Thank you both laying there just going Ivan Mullet doesn't live around here. He. Wasn't in prison then I'm. Trying to think what you're all oh, God, yeah, oh God, it's awful, yeah. But yeah. So you've really got to time yourself well, and you've got to know what's out there. You've got to understand all those things because you can put yourself in dangerous positions just purely for wildlife temperatures, you know, road conditions, all those things.

34:01 That's, I mean, beyond what they encountered. There are so many other reasons of why travelling at that time is not ideal. Recommended no at all. So according to Joanne's account, and she hers is the only account we have of what actually happened. What she says happened that night is that around 7:30 PM they were travelling on the Stewart Highway towards the Devil's Marbles in their orange Combi Van Falconios. So Peter was driving and Joanne was in the passenger seat and she said she was wearing just shorts and AT shirt because it had been hot that day.

34:36 They've been at the Camel Cup races. And she was just saying, too, like, pride of them this exact moment. Like they did pull over at one stage and they did smoke a bit of a joint between them. Yeah, because they wanted to keep going to try and get further. So have. The opposite of her. Yeah, it probably, yeah, that's what I would thought, but but I. Mean not. Yeah, well, there's sort of conjecture around maybe they did have some other things too. Don't know. But yeah, she definitely admitted that they'd smoked a joint and that was to sort of help them keep going, which, yeah, it makes you sleeping a bit like, I don't know, it's an.

35:10 Interesting choice if that's what you're going for, but anyways. I guess dependent on how what kind of a user of that kind of stuff you are and what you're how it affects you, I don't know. But yeah, so that had also occurred. So we're sort of looking at like 7:30 at night now, so and they're still continuing along that road. That's it. So since they'd stopped at the Barrow Creek Roadhouse, they'd noticed that there was somebody following behind them. Now you've got to think we're out in the middle of the Outback.

35:36 There are really no speed limits. Like people go fast and the combi couldn't. So this car was following behind them and Peter made a comment to Joanna. I just wish he'd pass us. Now, there's a couple of different versions of events here about what kind of happened next, but one of the versions is that the person who was in the car behind them was sort of gesturing for them to pull over. The other account is that the car actually pulled up beside them and and sort of made them pull over, saying that there were sparks flying out of the back of their combi.

36:10 Now you mentioned before that Joanne had stated that the combi had backfired in the past. So this wasn't necessarily something that they were I. Went shocked if there was something wrong with this car. That's exactly. Right. But Joanne was a little bit cautious. She didn't want Peter to pull over. That Peter was like, well, no, if there's. Something wrong if? There's something wrong, we gotta check it. Out it's just it really shows that, you know, different mentality of like male female in those moments.

36:34 Totally, 100%, absolutely. Yeah, Joanne stayed in the car. Peter got out and walked to, sort of walked to the back of the car and met this person. Joanne's account of it is that the banter between between Peter and this person who'd gotten out was seemed very friendly. That was kind of quite jovial. Peter thanked him for thanks for stopping and letting us know so we can fix this up. And yeah, they went around to the back of the car. Yeah, yeah. Peter then comes up to Joanne in the passengers, so she was still in the passengers, said this time he comes to the cabin of the Combi and gets out his cigarettes and he asks Joanne to scootch over into the driver's seat and to start the car when he tells her to do so.

37:14 Because they're trying to obviously figure out what's going on with this spark, these sparks or whatever. Coming out the back. Person that's reported, she turns the car over a couple of times and then on one of the times that she's turned the car over, she hears a loud bang and it sounds like to her, it sounds like a car backfiring. Yeah, With that, she kind of turned to her driver's side window and there's a man there with a gun pointing at her. So she obviously like in that split second, I think you would just put it all together.

37:46 Yeah, It'd be like, Oh my God, that wasn't a backfire. Like that's a gun. Like, yeah, yeah. Holy shit. Yeah. Where's Pete? And I think that was her first words, according to her, is where's Pete? What? What have you done to Pete? Yeah. He then tells her to turn the combi off, and she said she was basically paralyzed by fear, as you would be. So he then reached over and turned the car off himself. He then ordered her to get out of the car. Now, there's several different accounts now of what actually happened.

38:19 And I actually think that Joanne's account has been consistent across all of her interviews, especially her official police interviews. And then what she reported in court, where there's been an introduction of a little bit of doubt in the story, has actually been introduced by other media organizations in miss telling the story. And I feel like Joanne from the get go was vilified by the media. Very much so. I just think of my heart absolutely goes out to her so. There was one particular headline where, and it was kind of a bit later into this to this, but I was like, Oh my God, that's exactly what happened to her.

39:01 And it was called the headline was the Linda Fication of Joanne Lee's. And like, we're talking Linda Chamberlain, that whole idea of immediately she's the one who's done this and jumping on her when she's telling her story. Yeah. I actually read that article. That you were. Talking about And what they said was in this day and age, Lindy Chamberlain would never have been convicted because every eyewitness account said, yes, a dingo stole her baby like she was here. You know, there were so many eyewitness accounts, there was so much testimony.

39:37 But the police just decided that Lindy was guilty and she'd done something to her baby, and there's no way a dingo could have taken her baby. Yeah. And. And that sounds really unrealistic. Yes, realistic shit happens. Absolutely, all of the time. And so they in this day and age, obviously we've got better investigative measures. And also I think the way we treat victims is very different. Yeah. Even back when this happened, you know, in 2001 to Joanne and to Peter, there was still that sort of victimized.

40:09 Like they they really the media it was trial by media it. Really. Yeah. And she'd look she'd do her own self any favours either. But we can get to all of that We. Can get to all of. That yeah, but definitely yeah, the media just made a decision, but the police made a bit of a decision too and they. They did in the early days. I just feel that they didn't have the expertise really. To yes. To investigate this appropriately, Yeah. And so I don't know that it was, you know, deliberate malice by the.

40:38 Police. It was almost like, we know, like, this person has all the answers, so they have to have the answers that actually get us a result. And when her answers weren't enough to give them a result, it was like, well, now you must be not telling us everything. Yeah. And it's like, well no, that person doesn't know enough to give you the answers because she was a victim in this and traumatized. Traumatized. Yeah. Like, we'll, we'll get to this. Yeah, actually. So she then is taken out of the car.

41:03 Yeah. By this perpetrator, who she assumes has killed Peter because she's calling out to him and there's no response. Yeah. He then she tries to duct tape her mouth, gets the duct taping stuck in her hair because she was. Fighting. The entire time so hard he tried he then cable tied her hands with a very particular already pre made cable tied handcuffs essentially weren't they Yeah. So these were pre made. When I say that they were, you can. Find photos of them, I'll pop some up like. They were already joined together with duct tape and then they were ready to go.

41:43 So they. Looked around each other and they. Had to just slot their hands in and pull like it was ready. To ready to go? Yeah. Pre meditated stuff? Absolutely yeah. So or there for some reason. Isn't it? Yep. I don't know why you'd need to have homemade handcuffs in your car otherwise. So Joanne is fighting this perpetrator. He's trying to then bind her legs as well, but she's kicked curiously. So he ended up putting a bag over her head, I guess to try and, I don't know, disorient her. He couldn't kind of get her under his, you know, you know, get her under his will in any other way.

42:23 So he's popped a bag over her head and she says she actually doesn't know how, but she ended up in the tray of his car. So he was driving a what we now know to be a Toyota. Oh God. I can find it. Here we go. Toyota 4 wheel drive it just says but with a canopy. So it had a canvas canopy. So it was a Ute with a hard backed Ute Yeah, with a canvas canopy. And what the media piece. Toyota Land Cruiser Land. Oh, there you go. A 1991 to 1999 white Toyota Land Cruiser. Peter, I wonder whether it was a 79?

42:57 What does that freaking mean? When you've got a land, oh, you would. Be yes. Yeah, I wouldn't get it. Freeze the dwarf. Wish I did.

43:10 Like I know what. I'm talking about. I actually don't. Peter will be like, oh God, it wouldn't be a 79, it's a blah blah, blah. Anyway, sorry, Peter in advance. So what The thing is, is there's a hard back on it. So there's no way to get from the cabin of the Ute into the tray of the Ute? Yeah, some media reported that Joanne stated that she crawled in from the cabin of the Ute which is where she was placed into the tray of the Ute. But what she says happened is that he basically lifted up the canvas and put her into the tray.

43:46 So people are like, well, which one was it? Well, no, no, no, Joanne never said that she went in from no. And also she was freaking traumatized. And this is the thing that never gets taken into account. Like, you know that, Yeah, like, somehow, somehow I was moved from here to here. Like but she's fighting and like at the same time and trying to remember what happened over. Her head, she doesn't can't sit like it won't be and it's pitch black. Yes. Anyway, yeah, so she actually ends up escaping and she says.

44:13 Slides herself down the back of the the tray of the unit the the Ute sorry and climbs out. And then she just bolts it. So she again not knowing, I think she was able to kind of be able to see get the. She managed to get the bag off because her hands were bound, but in front of her. And whether or not in the back of the Ute whether they were done behind her and then in the back of the she's managed to get them around, you know, pull her feet up and and under and over and get them in front of her.

44:40 I'm not sure. Or whether he just did bind them in front of her or were they behind her? No, they were behind her until she got to the Bush. She got the books. That's right. Yeah. So yeah, she's got them because I know they were. Behind her I think she's like been able to like use a shoulder or something to unhook, like to basically get the head. Back this hedge and whatever and get it off, yeah. She then ran into absolute pitch black darkness. Now there's a lot of salt scrub around. It's very low levels.

45:06 When we're talking Bush, we're out in the Outback. That doesn't mean that it's like bushland, bushland or doesn't mean that it's overgrown either. Like as in like it's quite sparse. Like there's there are little bushes everywhere, but, and they're not tall. They're not, so it's to hide in. This would not be easy, especially. In the pitch black, not being able to see where. You're not seeing where you're going, but also knowing this person potentially could pull a light out, which does, you know, to try and hide in.

45:33 This is not easy. It's very barren. Yeah. It's not lush. It's not gonna cover you. Exactly. There's not. Really many places to hide but she manages to find somewhere. So I read somewhere that she ran, She ended up only being about 35 meters back from the road, but she'd run so much further because she went diagonally. Yeah. And so she thought she'd run like at a 90° angle and was running away but. She actually disorientated. Of course, yeah, but she ended up stumbling upon a. Bush, salt Bush. A salt Bush that she felt like she could kind of hide behind.

46:10 Buried herself in there and got as small as she possibly could. Yeah, she tried to control her breathing because she knew that she was so that. I mean, you're gonna hear the smallest amount of noise because there is just nothing out there. So she said she was really careful of her breathing because she knew that if someone walked near her, they would hear her, you know, breathing that she was like, I've got to stop. I've got to like calm like so that I can stay quiet and not make a sound. Having the presence of mind to do that, oh man.

46:36 And being so extremely terrified when the perpetrator put her into the tray, she was asking him questions and saying things like, are you going to rape me? What happened to Peter? Did you murder Peter? And she reports that she heard dragging sounds. So once she's been sort of situated in the salt Bush, she heard dragging sounds like something being dragged along the gravel and then a torch being shown in her direction. And the perpetrator had a dog with him. And she said that the dog was looking for her and not doing an amazing job of it.

47:21 But we kind of know now why the dog that. So we'll we'll say that, you know, Bradley John Murdoch was eventually charged for this. Joanne said that the gun that was pointed in her face was like a Western style gun. This person was very tall. He had a like a Mexican style mustache A. Loop down like mustache? Yeah. And he was quite imposing. She also mentioned things about his hair that the detectives actually found really fascinating. They said that his hair, she said that his hair was kind of sparkly.

47:57 And I can imagine like he did have salt and pepper type hair. So he had quite a few Grays in there that I imagine in the moonlight, one of them sparkly. So she had like quite a quite a convincing and fairly detailed account of what had gone on. Well, even though it's not just like the so the picture they come out with when she describes who the perpetrator was is as much as everyone looked at it and went that could be half the people who live out this way. It was actually very accurate to the person who end up being convicted of this.

48:31 That's right. So as much as. Yeah, like it might look like every other one out there. Yeah. She was very accurate, too. Yeah. So. She described the dog as being she wasn't quite sure but she said it had spots and she said maybe like a cattle type dog. But then. There's a few issues with the the dog that which we can get to. But yeah, one being that when she was asked that question, the police officer said to her, oh, like, like that one over there and appointed to a particular type of dog, which wasn't the kind of dog that probably John Murdoch had.

49:01 And she just went yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like that, like kind of like that, which I mean spots in those sort of moments. Yeah, it had spots. But she was like, yeah, kind of like that. Like, I guess, you know, and you know, that's she might have been thinking that he was inferring to the size of that dog, not the breed of the dog, you know, or the colouring or I mean, there's a lot of combinations that make up a kind of dog. So whether in the moment she's gone. Yeah, yeah, it was kind of that size when he's taken it as you know, Oh, that exact breed, that exact looking dog.

49:33 So it's it's that that throws off a few things. I think the dog, but. It does, but yeah, they, I don't think that can really be used in evidence because she was. She was, she was inappropriately, you know, yeah. Suggested in places. So yeah, it wasn't great policing, no. Yeah, in that moment we also know that. So Brad Bradley Murdoch had a Dalmatian cross dog, which is not really a cat. The. Kind of dog you normally see out that way, not in the Outback. They're not known for being good hunters or trackers or anything like that.

50:06 They're not. So they're just brightest of dogs. No, I think they're gorgeous. No, yeah, absolutely gorgeous, but not known for their intelligence or their tracking abilities. So the fact that the dog didn't find Joanne? It's not shocking, isn't shocking. And I think that just goes even further to the fact that this was him. Yeah, well, apparently other people also commented on saying like his talk was really dumb. Yeah. So he probably would have left it in the in the car and like, you know, that wouldn't have even bothered getting it out some in some ways because it wouldn't have done any good.

50:35 Yeah. Apparently when Murdoch was looking for Joanne with the torch, she she that like he did shine the torch near the Bush that she was hiding behind and he didn't see her. How that happened I do not even know. Like she in some ways is just so lucky for that sequence of events. The torch then goes, she hears a car turn on and she from the sound of it, she knows it's their combi van that's being being turned on and being moved. The combi van is turned off so she hears a drive away from her N so the way they were travelling and then she doesn't hear anything and then she hears somebody coming back and another car turning on and then using the headlights like moving the car so that the headlights of the car look out to where she is.

51:29 Obviously this perpetrator is looking for her again. He finds nothing, and he. Drives eventually he drives away he sort of like fakes it a little bit and like and waits for it to come out he turns everything off as if he's disappeared but he hadn't to see if he can kind of like, I think coax her out sort of to kind of go oh, you know, she thinks I've gone she'll walk out yeah but she didn't she just stayed there and I to be honest, she can she stayed there until and waited for until she heard the noise of another car coming by well because.

51:57 She heard, she heard the noise, yeah, of the car. And she thought, well, that might be somebody using cahoots with him, or might be him again. And so she actually waited until she heard the sound of a Rd. Train, Rd. train because she knew then it would be different. It was a different, you know, vehicle that and like Rd. trains, if you haven't seen one, they are huge and they make a lot of noise. There is no mistaking them. And so she's obviously experienced enough in terms of these roads of what she's been on to understand what that would be.

52:23 And there's plenty of them that run up down that route. And so to hear one of those, she could have very easily known that that was what it was. And the lights coming off of them as well. There's a lot of lights. Very well. Yeah. Because for the reason of, like, they are very dangerous. They're not easy to stop. They once they're a bit like a real train, like on train tracks that they are so heavy, yeah, that to put a brake on and slam brakes on and stop isn't quite that easy. They they just keep plowing through.

52:49 So you do, they do need to have, you know, breakdown, you know, using gears, et cetera, to better do that. So there. She says that she was waiting in that Bush for about four hours, yeah, before the road train came. And so we're sort of heading into. Was it about 2:00 in the morning? I. Think I think 1 o'clockish, yeah. So she's run out onto the road, flagged down the driver of the train, saw her yeah and alerted his Co driver who was asleep in the. Well, he actually says he doesn't, he saw something and didn't know what it was.

53:17 He actually, he actually it wasn't even to the point like he saw a woman. He was like, there's some figure he was because he's so high up off the road too that he saw this thing on the road that he's like, Oh my God, like what the hell is that? And did slam the brakes on and broke, broke down and he actually assumed that he had driven over whatever it was that had come out onto the road. So he jumped out to thinking. He immediately then looked under the truck because he was like, I've, I haven't been able to stop him.

53:43 I've run over. It it took him a kilometre to stop. Yeah, yeah, that's how how long it takes, yeah. Kilometre to come to a complete stop. Yeah, by that stage, Joanne was running towards him. Yeah. And yelling out towards him. He sounds like the loveliest bloke but if you shouldn't be stopped they can stop any road train. This is the guy to have had jump out of that truck because I have absolutely Rodney Vince there was also there's 2 so there's obviously Vince. Vince was no, no, Vince was one driving.

54:10 OK, Rodney was asleep. So he always drive with two because they do they drive in shifts and they don't stop really like they just keep going. Rodney's asleep in the canopy at the back. We actually don't know his surname. Vince is has been public and and so we do know his surname, but I can't think of it off the same. But yeah, so Vince was, he was, he's been, he's in. He's interviewed in a number of places. Yeah. God, so lovely. I remember like watching, thinking like at the time going, oh, God, Paul, Joanne Lee's like, what's she gonna get coming out of this truck now?

54:38 I'd be terrified. But then when I saw him interviewed, I was like, Oh my God, what a beautiful man. And even it sounds to me like, not that we've seen Rodney, but he was very similar of, you know, ilk of obviously very similar men. Just really, they were so lovely to her to the point where I kind of a bit concerned for preserving evidence of the scene, unfortunately. But I thought they were doing the wrong. Absolutely. Because they they saw that he looked under the truck to try and find whatever hell he'd run over.

55:08 And he said all of a sudden across from the other side of the truck, this body appeared and ran towards him under the truck. So you can literally walk under them, they're that high up. And she did, she came from underneath to him, just fell into him. She was terrified. So he just like was like, my God, like this random woman out in the middle of nowhere. What the hell? And he's taking one look at her and knowing that there's something awful has happened. She's got cuts and bruises all over her. I mean, she is bleeding, she's got her knees are all gums scratched up and her legs and everything.

55:40 And then her hands are bound in front of her. And this point, Rodney is woken by the noise and things of what's going out and he comes out as well. So they do, they cut off her, the the ties around her arms, which and then they also come take off of her. The the duct tape that had got she. It wasn't over her mouth because he couldn't get it on her because she kept moving so much, but it was stuck around her neck and it was on so tight that he had to like get his little finger in there to try and get it.

56:07 So he didn't cut her. And he, because he's even said this, Rodney, he was like, I was so scared I was going to create more injuries to this poor woman who'd clearly been through hell, like. There was duct taping her hair, too, like there was just so much going on. Yeah. They ended up driving her to the Barrow Creek Motel Hotel. There's absolutely no service by the way out where they were. So there wasn't like they could just jump on the, on a radio or anything and contact somebody. They had to get to the nearest, you know, town.

56:38 I. Think Barrow Creek has a population of 11 people at the minute. I think had a population of 20 back then. Yeah. So it's barely a hamlet, really. Yeah. Yeah, but it was the nearest sort of waypoint, so they've taken Joanne there and called the Alice Springs police. Who hung up on them? Twice because they thought it was a joke. Because it didn't sound believable. Anyway, they eventually managed to convince them that this was real, and so they sent detectives out. The next day, yes, so early the next morning, but they weren't exactly like on foot immediately.

57:19 They arrived at about 4:30 in the morning. So we're talking, they rang them, I believe the contact was made at about 1:30 in the morning. And so they weren't rushing out their kind of stuff from their nearest point. They didn't start the search out to the actual site until 7:30 in the morning. I guess they. Needed daylight I I can kind of understand that they've come to Bear Creek they've. It would mean daylight at 4:30 like would mean enough light at 4:30. They've listened to Joanne's story and then they've obviously had to go out and, and find what whatever it is that they were looking for, which I guess they didn't really know.

57:54 But even that this was all botched, I I can kind of understand the the time between four, 1:30 and 4:30 for them to get there because they had to go from Alice Springs to Barrack Creek, which is like 3 odd 100 kilometers. That's a long way to go. Yeah. So I can understand the time there. I don't really understand why they didn't go out and secure the scene straight away, even if they couldn't process anything. Yeah. But then the other thing was though, Joanne wasn't 100% sure exactly where it all took place, but the truck drivers, they were they, they, they, they would travel up and down there for they basically knew exactly where they picked her up from.

58:34 Yeah. So yeah, that that I find. Yeah. And we should say too, that when they obviously got to Borough Creek, they cleaned her down like they cleaned her off, which again comes into play in terms of I guess the fact of like that the the police at this point when they get to the scene and they see her, they don't find a lot of evidence of anything of these things. Because, yeah, potentially, potentially any DNA or anything of like that sort of thing or blood maybe from the perpetrator is potentially being washed off in that process of them doing that.

59:05 That's what I mean by when I said they were so lovely, these guys, but that I don't know. They preserved a scene, unfortunately. So I. Think they were trying to care for her, yeah, all the blood off her and yeah, all of that kind of stuff. But I think I'm. I'm sure. Evidence, I think that evidence was lost in that unfortunately, black people like then cliched really, really clutched to the fact of like, oh, there was no evidence on her. There was, you know, that we find very minimal, you know, that on her there was no, you know, if she was fighting so much and all this sort of thing and kicking around like surely he touched her and surely he left, you know, hair or something on her.

59:36 But if it was, it could have been washed off, you know, in that process, so. So she'd spent 4 hours in the freezing cold Bush Yeah you know, God only knows what actually happened to any evidence that was on her Yeah would have been potentially wiped off. Who knows? So yeah, they they start to process the scene. They interviewed Joanne and trying to figure out what happened. What they found when they got to the scene were three small pools of blood. Yeah, around about 250 mills of. Blood, yeah, it wasn't that.

1:00:11 It's not an insignificant amount, but I guess if you're thinking somebody's being shot, that seems like not a lot of blood, but especially if they've been shot in the head. But it's but to me, if you've been if you they're shot and then you can maybe answer this. If they've been shot dead one shot like in the close range kind of shot that would have happened, would that mean there's no blood pumping around the body? So not a lot of blood. Maybe would be. Present and also like if the bullet hadn't exited his body, yes, like there's no.

1:00:38 Exit wound. Had, you know, then there's not a lot of space for blood to be coming out. Yeah. And then he. Might how? Quickly he got him into the back of his Ute as. Well, because my other thought was too in terms of that of the blood evidence. So, OK, yes, he had a gun when she came, he came to the the door like, you know, to her. But is there anything saying that it was definitely a gunshot? I mean, if you've never heard a gunshot before, which Joanne Leigh's had not and she she mistake mistakenly thought it was even the the combi backfiring.

1:01:10 I mean, we're only concluding that we are assuming there was a gunshot. Could it have been that he was smacked over the head with something and the bang was actually that then hitting the combi? You know, like, say he had, I don't know, a plank of wood or something, and he smacked him that hard over the head and that, yeah, killed him. But that may not leave then an injury. It's crushed the skull, what have you, but it may not include much blood. Absolutely. I mean, we don't know. Nice. To this day, I guess it's worth noting that Peters body has never been found.

1:01:43 Yeah, so we don't. Actually know what? Is what happened. What his cause of death was that to me there's we're still leaving ourselves open here of like you. Can still fire a gun up in the air if, you know, if you want a gunshot sound to, yeah, be heard or whatever. I mean, I don't know. But, you know, you could also, I guess, shoot down into somebody's body. Oh, true. I hadn't even thought of that. Yeah, and he was a tall man. He could have definitely done that. And then not, not have as much blood.

1:02:11 Blood necessarily. I don't know. Yeah. I mean, we, we don't know. Yeah, there's so many. There's many possibilities. Yeah. I mean, a lot of, again, a lot of people say, you know, there wasn't enough blood to think that he'd been killed. But I think there's plenty of reasons to think that. I don't think that's the thing. Yeah. DNA testing was done on the blood and it was definitely Pedophile Conio's blood that they found on the side of the road. And if you'll lose, if you do lose 250 mils of blood, I mean, it's significant.

1:02:36 Like it would be a. Lot of blood, I mean. It'd be enough to what to say, you know, that person could be dead. Like, it's not like we're saying like there was only a couple of drops. There's no way that person would be dead from that. Like, yeah, yeah. Yeah, they found the combi had been like driven up the road and parked off to the side of the road. Yeah, about 80 meters into the scrub, it had been moved in in there, which is a bit of an odd one, like what's still visible. Yeah, yeah, yeah. When you could have moved it probably 100 kilometers into the Yeah, and you still would have seen it, the bright.

1:03:05 Orange Combi. Absolutely. Yeah. So there's the pool of blood. And the other thing that that was noted was that they obviously they found Joanne Lisa's footprints in that Bush where she'd hidden for like 4 hours. So that's, you know, she's been there in a one spot, you know, really putting her feet in there, you know, planting herself to like for safety. So not shocked that you know, you would find footprints there. However, they noted that there were no other footprints that they would they found in the scene where they were like, oh, if someone was searching around that space, you'd see footprints of the dog or this person walking around.

1:03:42 Now The thing is you don't also find Joanne Lee's footprints of her running towards this this salt Bush either. So the dust and everything about there, a bit of a wind could have come through and like and it could have blown away any, any of those footprints. Yeah, they would have been there when they first you first walked there. But it would wouldn't take much for them to disappear so. Yes, to me that's a moot point. Like it's. Same. Footprints weren't there either. Like why? Why is that even a?

1:04:08 Because. People latched onto the fact that that his footprints weren't there and the dog's footprints weren't there. Well, neither were Joanne's. The only ones that Joanne's were found were where she planted her feet for four hours. Yes, they would have been dug into that ground, you know, like, yes, of course they were there. The others not being there does not indicate that this didn't happen and and that she's telling any lies. Yeah, I think it actually backs her story that she hid there for a very long time.

1:04:37 Yeah. Yeah. And why would you do that if no one was chasing you? Yeah. For. Sure. Mm. Hmm. For sure. All right, all righty. So the police are processing the scene, I guess. And Joanne, because all of her belongings, everything she had was in that combi and it was now a crime scene. Yeah. She had no access to any of her things. And I'm talking no money. Like her bag, her wallet, everything, Everything she owned, every worldly possession she had in Australia was in that van. Yeah. Clothes, toiletries, everything.

1:05:12 So the police organized for her to be able to go and do some shopping so that she could get just, you know, some essentials. Yeah. And she went and bought what she needed with a police officer. So with two things on it, because I know where you're getting with it. One of those things, though, that I'll just say beforehand was that she was photographed doing that. And even in the media was then like, oh, she's out shopping when her boyfriend's missing. Hello. Freaking hell, she needed things. What?

1:05:42 There wasn't many places to go shopping where she, you know, they were out in the middle of nowhere, you know, like, so she'd got. Yeah, she'd gone shopping to go and get things because she desperately needed something. She needed things. I mean, it just blows my mind how cruel the media were. Agreed. Yeah, she bought some clothes. Now I'm gonna just put it out there and assume that there wasn't a lot in her size to choose from. I'm giving her to the benefit of the doubt here because one of the things she chose to buy it was this pink cheeky monkey T-shirt that has now become infamous.

1:06:16 On the front of it, I'll put a photo up, it says yeah, it said Cheeky monkey right across the chest of it. And this is the the T-shirt that she well chooses, I'll put in, you know, chooses to wear she. Did choose to wear it. She had more than one tee. She'd have more than one and look, and apparently, according to the the lead investigator for this, who gonna get her name right, Colleen Gwen. Now she, I should say she came on board as the lead investigator about six months into this, but she was part of the team from the get go.

1:06:45 Now apparently she remembers, even though at the time when they were walking out to this media press, turning to Joanne Lee's and saying to her, you sure you want to wear that T-shirt? And she just went, yeah, I'm wearing this. She's. Like, OK, apparently someone said to her, I've got a black T-shirt you can borrow. And she was like, no, this is fine. Yeah, which I mean in her, like I in some ways I get it in that she was probably like, what are you talking about? What's wrong with my T-shirt? She wasn't thinking straight.

1:07:13 She was not in any way. I don't know then. Then wouldn't you be like, Oh well, if they're telling me not to wear this T-shirt? From but I don't know how forceful they were with it. You know what I mean? I'm not sure what I mean. It was definitely mentioned. Yeah. But to what degree, I don't know. Yeah. And this is where that Colleen Gwen, she actually says she uses it now in in her teachings of young up and coming constables and things of, you know, the media and how that can be portrayed and that they do more.

1:07:41 They are far more vigilant in maybe helping people choose appropriate clothing for those kind of events because it can really change the, the spin the media have on a case where the police are wanting to take it in a completely different way. So they, they, they do apparently do have better protocols around that now. I mean, not that you're going to be telling someone not to be who they are either. I have an issue with people dictating how what other people wear. So I know I fully really that. I fully agree with that.

1:08:14 But yeah, I also think the optics of that, I can see why people took that the wrong way. Yeah, but she was a 7 year old girl. I don't know I I see from both perspective. It's totally her partner's missing. She probably was like who gives a fuck? Who gives a shit on what I mean? Doesn't actually matter. No, and I think that's I mean, unfortunately, I think that's what him where her mindset was at. Yeah, probably. And no and no, in no way, shape or form did she have in her mind, oh, the media might look at me and think about me in a certain way for wearing this T-shirt.

1:08:47 Although the media had already started to hound her and write not very nice things about her. Awful, horrid. So by this stage, Paul Falconeo, Peter's brother, had come out to well, I guess it's almost as a bit of a family spokesperson and to support Joanne. And when they fronted this press conference, the media thought they were going to hear from Joanne. But I mean, I guess they did. But it was Pete, it was Paul who read a statement from Joanne. Yeah, The media were asking Joanne lots of different types of questions.

1:09:26 And she, well, in a lot of the things that I've read and you can watch these press conferences on YouTube. So have a look and see what you think. But there's some media reports where she's like looking down her nose at people and, you know, she's very aloof and not, not engaged. I mean, I think she was still in shock at this point. I think she was so traumatized by the events that she'd been through. She just had to get through that. She was participating in these, in this, you know, media circus essentially for to try and find what had happened to Peter, whether anybody could come forward with any information or whether anybody knew anything.

1:10:06 She was doing her best. But at the same, I think at the same time as like there's the media and how they're treating her, but there's also the hell the police were treating her, which I think she was already feeling not she wasn't being treated like a victim. She was being treated like a potential perpetrator. And so she was already defensive of like by how the police were treating her. And then to walk out into the media and feel like, well, if the police are treating me this way, am I being placed in a position of like, you know, being put for put up for this, you know, and now there's cameras that mean I'm not used to that.

1:10:39 I can only imagine how she would be feeling. I mean horrible. But just like if the police thought she was involved, what did they think had happened like that? Nothing's come out about that as in they, their theory, I think very quickly did turn to what eventually went to trial or how it eventually went to trial. But I just can't. I mean, I understand you've got to look at the people closest to the victim first. I do understand that. But then you've got in front of you. But also very. Traumatized.

1:11:15 Petite woman little how did and we don't have a body like what what on earth could she have done with a body on her own? Like, yeah, how, how you concluding? Well, there's no one else out there. It's got to be in her who did this. What's her motive? What? Well, their only motive that they were sort of, I guess could put forward was the fact that there was this potentially having this affair with someone in Sydney. Because at this point she does continue to, you know, communicate with this person.

1:11:41 She does. They do discover that there's emails between this person and her at this point. So yeah, Pete's missing, but she's still communicating with this this bloke, so and saying things like, hey, let's catch up, you know? But I mean, yeah, let's catch up. Like, I mean, you've been through trauma. Like, jeez, someone want to be there for you who's been a friend to you? Like that doesn't sound inappropriate in a lot in some ways to me either. She was. Also emailing other friends saying exactly the same thing.

1:12:05 Yeah, like female friends. They really sort of spun this of being like, you know, oh, they were trying like, you know, rendezvous like, you know, like, yeah, it's like, well, no, there's just this is her looking seeking for actual support from actual friends, which the police were not being supportive. You can see some of the the the recordings of the video in the interviews with Joanne and they do speak to her atrociously. It it's really not not good like. And I'm not just talking early days either.

1:12:35 I can almost in a way, if they're trying to eliminate her, I can kind of understand, you know, they've got a job to do and yeah, they need to get to the bottom of what's happened. But I'm talking months later when they're re interviewing her and trying to confirm different details. The way they speak to her is absolutely horrible. When the that lead investigator then takes over though, the whole tone does change the investigation. And she she said she immediately she believed Joanne from the get go.

1:13:05 Like so she as I say, she was in the team who was there on the first day as a uniformed police officer. It was just that within the first six months of this, she happened to be to get a promotion and this became her her case. And she was late investigator. So as much as she was now taking over and she said she didn't really even realise that as the uniformed police officer in this case, she didn't realise how bad it was until she moved into that leadership role that she went, holy crap, this has not been done well, Yeah, yeah.

1:13:35 Which is interesting to see how like from that different perspective of even the role in the in the case, to have that whole new, I guess, landscape in front of her of how this case should be dealt with. Fully agree. And unfortunately so far into it, I mean, six months down the track of this, you know, trying to find someone it's. Joanne had already gone back to the UK by the time she took over the case and so she went over to the UK to formally interview Joanne for herself. And she said when she first met with Joanne back in the UK, Joanne was very standoffish.

1:14:07 But she was so burnt by the media and the previous interactions with the police that it took a while for her to come around. But eventually she did. And I think it was that confidence that she was being believed and that she was also a victim in this, and this was a horrific thing for her to have to go through. Yeah, because when they what they also do is not long after this occurrence, the police take her out to the scene to re enact it, which on the surface. Oh, good.

1:14:48 No, you're right. Blow. My nose while I'm here. Sorry, no, you're right. You're good. Yeah. So on the surface, I can understand wanting to do that because you can get a hell of a lot of information out of doing and a reenactment of the of what took place to be able to understand what they're looking for. And, you know, and the possibility it might spark something for her that she remembers being in that position, you know, that that might bring out more information for them. However, how fucking traumatizing is that so soon after going through it as well?

1:15:33 I don't know if I could do that. I just. Don't think there was any consideration. From and yeah, this is the other thing. It's the way they speak to her during it. There's I think if you were going to do it and it was, you know, you were like, right, we really need to do is unfortunately, this is how we think we might be able to get some more information. We're going to do this. You need to do that with a real lens of we're dealing with someone who's highly traumatized. We're gonna need to step carefully.

1:15:57 She's gonna need to take as much time as she needs, you know, and these two blokes particularly who are running her through this. Oh my God. They actually, there's a one point where she's in the car explaining how he moved her across the seat or something. And so he's in her face pretending to be the perpetrator. And he's quite a big imposing bloke. And he's like leaning over her going, well, did you turn the car off or did he turn the car off? And she's like, I, I can't remember if I, I know he said that, but I can't remember if I did it or if he did it.

1:16:26 And so she's like frustrated with herself for not being able to remember. He's getting frustrated with her. And then she like leans across the car a bit more and she starts talking more about what happened and she just can't. And she breaks down, leans forward and bursts into tears, like, And she's just absolutely beside herself. And you see these two guys in the camera shot, Oh, like, rolling their eyes, like, oh, he's separated by it. Here we go again. She's crying again. Fuck me. Like yeah, yeah, she's crying.

1:16:57 I think if I had someone that imposing and also like even dealing, if you've never dealt with the police, but yeah, that's intimidating as well. Absolutely. If you had any this police officer in your face and he was yelling at you basically, like, what was it? Well, did you do this or did he do this? I'd be like, oh, I don't know, like I'd be so overwhelmed in that room. And that's without the trauma around. It the whole, you know, you wanna say the right thing, 'cause you wanna be accurate, you wanna say what was true.

1:17:22 You don't wanna say something that was, you know, that wasn't, it wasn't accurate. And like, oh God, to have them pressuring you that you're getting it right. Awful. You know what that colleague Gwen did do as well when she first got off, like given these cases hers, one thing that she did was she took herself out there at a similar time of night on her own, put herself in that salt Bush where where Joanne had hid for four hours and really put herself in her shoes. Like literally put herself in those where her shoes were in that salt Bush to see how that would feel.

1:17:57 And she said I didn't have someone chasing me. I didn't have Bradley John Murdoch looking for me with a torch. But holy shit, it wasn't comfortable and was definitely not definitely really, you know, traumatic just sitting there like that because she there is the strength in that girl to sit through that and get through that. She had a whole new respect for her. She said that when she did that, the only thing she could hear was the sound of her own heartbeat. Like that's how deathly silent it is.

1:18:22 Yeah, there's no other sound. No. Oh, God. Awful. Unbelievable. Yeah. So I think unfortunately, poor police work in those initial weeks in terms of securing the scene, which they didn't do well enough because even by the time they did bring in Indigenous trackers from the area who are very good at looking for people and finding, you know, to even find the body, let alone the person who perpetrated this. That was something they definitely could have used at that point. But by the time they even got them there, there were that many police officers who'd walked around that scene that even if there were footprints of someone's to track, they had gone at that point.

1:19:01 So they they had just balls it up, I think, from the get go, in that sense of just securing a scene. Yeah, Let alone how they dealt with the victim. Yeah, agreed. Agreed. Awful. So in trying to identify the perpetrator, the police, you know, started compiling a list of, of different suspects. And when, what's the lead detective's name? Colleen. Colleen. When Colleen took over the case, she says she asked for the top five top 10 suspects. And that's where she was going to start. Yeah. Eliminate 1 by 1.

1:19:38 And she said Bradley, John Murdoch was #2 and #3 on that list for various different reasons. Physically he kind of matched the description. He was known to have been in Alice Springs at the time, which was a little bit unusual for him because generally he travelled. I mean, it depended. He did have, he did have runs through Alice Springs, but not always. He actually lived in Broome in WA and would more often than not travel down to Adelaide. They. Would do a drug run from Adelaide to Darwin quite regularly too, yeah.

1:20:14 He was, I mean, he had prior convictions for. Certain things, yes. Which I've got. Do you not get into that now? Yeah, we can talk about who he is before we before we came across him in this. Bradley John Murdoch was born on the 19th of February 1958. He is currently serving life imprisonment for the murder of Peter Falconio IS. It is it 28 years he was. So he'll be eligible for parole in 2032, right? Which is a little too soon for my liking. Absolutely. I I agree with that, yeah. Although I believe he's got throat cancer and I think he's not not meant to survive the year.

1:20:56 Oh. Really. Yeah, that'd be interesting. About a couple of months ago. They don't think he'll survive 2025, so OK, let's just hope that is true. Yeah, maybe. Now, his previous criminal charges in 1980, when he was aged 21, he received a suspended sentence after being convicted of causing death by dangerous driving after hitting hitting a motorcyclist in Port Prairie in SA. So reckless driving. He was doing something stupid. I think he was actually, I think he might have been intoxicated at the time or under the influence at the time of killing, hitting and killing the motorcyclist in November in 1995 S 15 years after that incident, he started a 21 month imprisonment for the August 1995 incident where he and he was drunk and he shot at people who were celebrating an Indigenous AFL round of football in Fitzroy Crossing in the Kimberley region of WA.

1:22:01 He was released after 15 months. Yeah, so he displayed white supremacist views on a number of things. He actually has tattoos as well that represent those. Yeah, absolutely. He apparently these views really became quite extreme once following the 1992 Marbo decision. So that really triggered that for him. And he so definitely got some real racist views. He, he moved around that top end area though in the communities from about the late 90s and he was living in Derby, which I've been to Derby and not much there, but he was running like sort of he was driving a, a, a train, a road train.

1:22:44 He was driving those. But in that he was running narcotics at the same time as doing that job. So he would find any way possible to sort of, I think slip in his bit of his, his criminal activities within working a proper job or whatever. And that was when he sort of settled in Broome at that point. So he was just in on everything like. Yeah, he he was a really, I mean, he's he's not a good bloke. Some might say piece of shit. Ohh, some. Might. Some might. Yeah, Very, very much. I mean, prior to his conviction of this, he was definitely known as a violent man, you know, and known for, you know, criminal activity, so.

1:23:25 Domestic violence. So he was married. He married a woman named Diane, I think in 1980. Yep. They had a son in 1984 and they ended up separating because of his extreme perpetration of domestic violence against Diane and I believe their. Son And you know what date it was that they separated? Yeah, it was on the 14th of July, which is the same day. That Peter Falconio. Peter Falconio went missing, disappeared, yeah. Presumed dead. Was he so that's that's that's is that a trigger point for him of like, because apparently, you know, like the separation with his wife.

1:24:00 He he was not he was not happy about the. Separation OK with. It No, not at all. He was not OK with it. She ended up having to escape him, basically. Yeah. And I believe they hid for a while. He didn't see his son for years. Oh. Because actually that really pissed me off. I was watching that. There's a documentary called Murders in the Outback. No, yeah, the Outback murders. No, which one is? He's called murder, Murder in the Outback, Murder in the yeah, Murder in the Outback. And so there's this particular, he's an ex lawyer who has represented many of the underworld and all that sort of thing.

1:24:36 He's a defense lawyer from from way back. And there's a moment in it where he says, you know, oh, I just really want to help pay to get Bradley get out of jail so he can be with his with his son. Sorry, what? No, no, that kid could he could probably really do better. Like probably not being around him I think. He's probably doing all right with his. Son, Yeah, Yeah, I don't know. Yes. So Andrew Fraser, the the lawyer who he has a very strong view that Bradley Murdoch did not commit this. He thinks that there's, there's some holes in, in the, in this conviction, which many people, you know, do side with that.

1:25:15 And he's got a few very good points, to be honest, in, you know, in terms of like some aspects of this case that I think maybe they did get wrong would add up in total. Don't know about that. But anyway we can get to all those things. But so he was, he was a very well well known defence lawyer for a very long time, as I say, represented in Melbourne. He represented many of our underworld in court, but he got caught up himself in some trouble and he was done for. Importing cocaine in artworks and stuff.

1:25:44 They used to stash it behind and everything. Painting. Yeah. And he says that he remembers the day that he became a criminal was that he was at the Formula One racing, the first Formula One racing in Adelaide, and someone offered him a bit of cocaine and he and he had some and quite liked it. And that was his demise from there. Yeah, unfortunately he became very much addicted and and then got in to, you know, importing it because, you know, I thought, well, I've got to feed this habit in terms of money wise and that can pay for it so cheap and cheap even for a lawyer.

1:26:16 So yeah, that's. And so he ended up spending some time in jail and and he's now obviously out of jail, but he's had his license for being able to be a lawyer anymore, has been revoked convicted felon. Yeah. So he can't be a lawyer anymore. But he still heads up a crew of other lawyers because obviously he has skills in this, but he just can't actually, you know, practice. So he has other lawyers in a team of that he works with that have a really pushing and really hard trying to get this case really looked at.

1:26:48 But we can, Yeah. I mean, yeah, Bradley Murdoch swears to this day that he is innocent. But why wouldn't he? Well, exactly. Once he got to lose. Aside from, well, we'll get to that in a SEC too. So he was also in 2003 charged with two counts of rape against a 12 year old girl. Yeah. Oh what the actual fuck. Like what a piece. What a total and utter piece of shit he was. Acquitted of it. Now there is a couple of ideas here or actually Andrew Rule that I was listening to who explained that Andrew Rule loving, but he believes that and has had you know little, you know birdies and easy as he tends to have who potentially think that his arrest for that was more so to get ADNA sample on file because he was acquitted of it.

1:27:40 Yeah, so I have heard that. Too. Yeah, I. Just think he's a total piece of shit and where there's smoke there's fire in this case because didn't he attempt to abduct her mother or something as well? And then? There was a mother and daughter that he had he abducted and he had, he had them apparently in the back of his Ute for like days on end and was like just raping them and putting them back in the Ute and raping them. And so that wasn't this case. That was this case, yeah. So what the fuck? Yeah, like, to me, that happened.

1:28:11 I. Don't I don't I don't know how he was acquitted of it. So the only. Why wasn't he charged with the rape of the mother? Yeah, he raped apparently both of them and yeah, but apparently yeah. But I don't know how he how he got off that. I really don't, but he did. I don't understand that at all and so the only sense I can make of it is that. Yeah, they needed his. DNA, they needed his DNA and so they, they, they got him without enough evidence. They you know what I mean? What I understand though, is from Colleen is that because they they were sort of, as they were investigating and eliminating other suspects, it became more and more clear that he was probably the perpetrator of this crime.

1:28:50 And they found out through the Grapevine that Bradley and his brother were not talking. They were not in good. So one of the the main people who sort of a person came forward who was an ex like business colleague of his. I want to go ex drug runners runner who he'd got into trouble in with. You know, the law as these things happen. And so he had said well to try and get himself a bit of a lesser sentence. I've got some information for you. You know, if I give you that, will you give me less a sentence?

1:29:21 So, and what he came out with was basically saying that he believed fairly strongly that Bradley Murdoch was the culprit of the stuff that went on in Barrow Creek. And with with Peter Falconeo, due to the fact that of his behaviour at the time, he'd acted really oddly. He believed that the kidnapping and things of those women were actually, it was actually him hiding out to try and avoid getting caught up with the stuff that was was going on with with. Changed his appearance. It changed his appearance of all these things that he said.

1:29:50 He changed the appearance of his car. Yeah, which he tended to do a fair bit anyway in terms of his drug runs. Yeah, that's fair. But yeah, but apparently he stopped doing a lot of that as well because he didn't want to become conspicuous in any way. Yes. So this guy had that information. So that was when the cops went, OK, well, we've got to look at him. Yeah. And that's. Yeah, when they were like, right, well, we need to get some DNA. It was. Barry the brother. No, I don't know. He had two brothers, but I don't know which one.

1:30:17 Yeah. Went to one of them they went to one of them. They he was more than happy to hand over. A DNA? Yeah, it was. Sure. What do you want? I'll give you whatever you want. And it came back that it was so when they obviously took all of Joanne's clothes and all of that on the night of the, you know, of the event of the suspected murder, forensically, they obviously looked at everything. And they found a tiny, tiny, tiny blood spot on Joanne's T-shirt. And it pulled a DNA profile of a person unknown.

1:30:53 Yeah. So it wasn't, it wasn't Joanne's and it wasn't Peter. 'S yeah, they know they had Peter's DNA profile, not only from the blood on the ground, but they had other items of his that they were able to obtain a profile from. Yeah. So they had this third unknown DNA and it was blood. The source was blood. So when they got the DNA sample from Bradley's brother, it came back as a familial match. So they're like. Fucking it's got to be him, yeah. Fucking bingo. In order to actually confirm that fully though, they needed a DNA profile from Bradley, which is what they got when they arrested him for the rape of the 12 year old girl and, and I think her mother.

1:31:37 But but and in doing so they they 100% got a match that the blood on Joanne's T-shirt matched Bradley John Edwards and it was like 150 million to 10 Murdoch. Oh my God. Wrong criminal, wrong one. They're too similar to the name. Oh it. Is it is doing my head in? Actually, I need to have it in front of me so I remember and also my brain's a bit. Black. Martha, at the moment. So having this DNA match meant that they could arrest him for the crime. Yeah, they had enough circumstantial evidence and even though they didn't have a body, which no criminal at that point in Darwin had ever been convicted of a murder without a body yet he was the first to undergo a trial with.

1:32:27 Nobody. Yeah, that's. Incredible. It's incredible. Well, it's I think also though that they did they, they always had bodies like they was like. I mean, all they knew what happened. Yeah, as in like they were fed to a crocodile. Yeah, Darwin's like the murder capital of Australia. Everyone thinks it's Adelaide, but it's actually Darwin. But that's because there's so many interesting characters. People. If you want to escape from somewhere, you go to Darwin. It's have you been to Darwin before? No, no, it's very interesting place.

1:32:56 Yeah. Yeah. Because you're either, you're either in the military up there, like you're either in the army or you're coming through on a holiday if you live there, usually because you're escaping something like. Yeah, yeah. They're very, very interesting people. Very interesting. Very interesting group of people. Yeah, collection of people. Yeah. So yeah, we're at now at the point where we're going to. Also yeah, but when they arrested him too, interesting. What they found on him at the time was they found that he had a gun holder and wrapped around the gun holder was a hair tie.

1:33:33 Now, in the kerfuffle of Joanne Lee's escaping him, she had lost her hair tie. And she said that in her original statement. In her original statement, her Mary Jane hair tie, Lady Jane, Lady Jane's Yeah, Lady Jane hair tie had been had been lost in the the fight and everything of her getting away and then and then oddly enough, on his gun holder wrapped around it was this Lady Jane hair tie. To me, that's the. Clincher yeah, yeah. And everyone overlooks. That yeah, that's the thing to me that makes me go, oh, they've absolutely got the right guy.

1:34:09 Oh. That was his little truth. Yeah, because the other that's the other thing with the blood on him as well like that, that how did that droplet of blood get there on her and hit match him entirely people, Exactly people. Who support him? Their excuse is that he was in Alice Springs on the same day as Peter and Joanne, and they both went to the same Red Rooster. Yeah, for lunch. Now we know they were there hours apart. Two hours between. The two hours apart and it's not like anyone cut themselves.

1:34:43 Or they're like, oh, so he must have had a cut on his hand. And. Pulled a chair out say and then and sat down with it and then she's come along 2 hours later. Brushed up against. And the Red Rooster, where I'm sure there's many other people that between that those two hours had maybe been in that same restaurant had then she's then sat in that same exact chair that he pulled out. And that's how it's got on the back of her T-shirt as she's laid back on the chair or something. This droplet of blood has got on.

1:35:08 Wait, what? It didn't dry in those two hours. That small amount of blood, she didn't see it to like go, oh, yuck. I'm not sitting on this chair like, oh, I don't know. Then what? Miraculously, she's done that and then gone off on her merry way and had this incident occur where she has described that exact person who happens to match that blood that she randomly brushed up against at a restaurant as being the perpetrator of that event. But then then the supporters for Bradley say that she had seen him around town in Alice Springs.

1:35:49 And because he was such an imposing figure, 'cause he's really tall, he's like 6. Foot five, yeah. He's really tall, so she's noticed him there and then that's the image that was in her mind when this all happened. 'Cause you do look at him and go, you're a fucking murderer. Yeah, I mean he looks. So scared. There's these shots of him being like put in a car at the court where they where he gets sort of, I think it's when he was arrested and they're trying to shove this huge man into this tiny little police car.

1:36:18 The look on his face, he's angry as hell. He's not happy. He's not happy, but he's like, he's like giant lurch in this car. Like, you know, like and the the cops trying to get him to move over so that someone else can sit next to him on the back seat, but he takes up like the entirety of the back seat of this car. Tall, but he's broad, he's big, he's big. Yeah. Oh, he's an imposing man. Like he would. I mean, to come across him in the dark night of terrifying that area, Oh my God, absolutely. How she got away from him just oh geez.

1:36:47 God only knows. What would have happened? Before she didn't. Yeah. I, I can't buy into any of the this stuff around that, that blood got there, you know, inadvertently, nor can I, I just no, sorry. That was that's no, no, no, no. Even in court when he was asked in the trial, well, can you explain how the blood, how your blood, you know, matches onto the T-shirt and he just went no. Yeah, that's right. He's got. Me Done. No. OK, All right.

1:37:21 Oh, my God. So he was arrested in WA, wasn't he? And then extradited to the NT for their trial? Yeah. So that began in April of 2005. Yeah, it was. It was very, very interesting this trial because I guess his defence tried to just put in any type of reasonable doubt that they could. The judge presiding was Brian Ross Martin QC and he was the Chief Justice of the NT. Murdoch pleaded not guilty to charges of murdering Falconio and assaulting and attempting to kidnap Joanne.

1:38:07 So Joanne had actually identified in the lead up to the trial, had identified photographs like had identified Bradley John Murdoch through photographs. Although so one particular that's so she, there was one particular one where she had, she was back in the UK at this point when they actually arrested him. And so they arrested him and then and she saw something on the news, right? So she's like, oh, they finally got someone, Sicily or something, right? Isn't she? I think when he was arrested. Yeah, if someone sort of gone like, hey Joanne, they've got someone for Peters murder and everything and she goes and looks at a new sees a news story and there's a photo of Bradley Murdoch on that in that story.

1:38:51 So then when she's brought out here to Australia, obviously to then like be part of this trial, she was given pictures to say, you know, do you think you know, the line up kind of picture style of, you know, to identify potentially Murdoch as being the guy? And she points to yes, Murdoch, but she had seen the photos of him in that. New story, she said when she saw the news story, her friend says. And I guess it's her friend, but you know, her friend says as soon as she saw it, she went. That's him, yeah.

1:39:17 Yeah. So I mean, I but in terms of it being being able to have submitted to courts in terms of her like it's I, I do understand a defence put picking that apart and going, well, she didn't identify Murdoch. She identified the guy she saw in the news story. I do get that because. But I do believe also that her friend saying that. Yeah, yeah, it was it matched who she saw on, you know, they, they matched all the descriptions of who he was at the time. He changed his appearance since and that sort of thing.

1:39:46 But yeah, he he matched who she described. They also found Murdoch's DNA on the handcuffs. How can? But did they? Well, I think they did well. To this day and a this to this day that evidence would not have made into trial no so that's been debunked that science. Yeah. But I. I'm just one like, I, I mean, they found something there that indicated that it could be his. Yeah. So to me, I mean, maybe in this day and age, it might be different and we would have had a definitive answer. But to me, I'm like, well, yeah.

1:40:18 Yeah, well, because I mean, I know I've heard you say before, you know, I mean, they can't make up a profile. Like if that profiles there, it's there. So that in my head I'm like, OK, well, if they found something, then that's it's strike #2 you know, if you've already the blood is a foregone conclusion to me for sure. And then to then find something that, yeah, that looks, that's his profile. Even if it's, you know, one in 10 to be his profile, that's closer than nothing. That's right. I I have a.

1:40:46 It was just because they found such little DNA there. Yes, the other thing and the glue, something to do with like the glue of the tape or something degraded the profile or something. OK, right. But then also his friend, the one who dobbed him in. What was his name? I can't remember him. No, I haven't got his name right now. He. Also scumbag #2. He also said that he saw Murdoch would make these. This is the other thing that's. Cable tie handcuffs. He had been seen to make that style of handcuff and when I put the photo up, people say no, that's not something that everyone does.

1:41:22 No, it's not. It's quite. Distinct, and you're also not using that to tie up an animal or anything. No, he's used them before. Yes, he's and he's made them before. Absolutely. People have seen them. Yeah, that was a yeah, Yeah. Oh, there's so much. Yeah. So he was then, I guess after the end of the trial he was found guilty. Yeah, the jury only took five hours to deliberate. That says a lot too. Yeah. Yeah. How long do I can? The mushroom deliberations are gonna go for 30 minutes, 3 seconds. Sorry.

1:41:56 Even Karen Reeds took 21 hours. Yeah, yeah, no, so, so yeah, guilty was he was found guilty of the murder of paedophile carneo and also assault and unlawful deprivation of liberty of Joanne Lee's Yeah. So his sentence of imprisonment was a non parole period of 28 years. So I just say he's due. For parole 302032, I think 2032, yeah. He's expected to die this year, 2025. Yeah, yeah. Now, Joanne says to like, she sat in that witness box and was a very good witness at the trial. And she says that she stared him down the whole time.

1:42:37 She was, you know, I mean, she's incredibly strong person. But she said the entire time he never looked at her. Now, I'm sorry, if you were, if you were weren't guilty, he would have looked at her. He couldn't look at her. No, that's nailing the coffin in my mind. I know that's not legal, but yeah. But I find that very interesting that he wouldn't look at her. Yeah, yeah, I agree. I agree because. He's looked into her eyes before, like he knows what he's done. He's appealed a number of times the the sentencing and the the conviction and been rejected at every Ave.

1:43:11 and unfortunately, as we say, Peter Mark Falconi's body's never been found. So there's a possibility that the play this law that is possible to be brought into play is that nobody no parole. So currently Darwin don't have that as a rule of that has to be followed like similar to Queensland who have have actually employed that into their law for every case which sorry my turn.

1:43:43 OK, so Queensland have got that in place for every case now that that they nobody no parole however or is it Sydney? Sorry is it NSW or Queensland have have that now? No, in NSW it's everyone. Yeah, sorry, NSW, it's everyone NSW because. Of the Chris Dawson. Case yes, Chris Dawson So it's it's absolutely applied to every case. Nobody, no parole. That's a flat out rule. Every other state I believe in Australia that can still be used, it's just not an absolute explicit. So the courts can use that and decide, well you know what, with no body there'll be no parole.

1:44:18 So the the thought process is that will probably come into play here if he makes it that far. If he makes it that far, they have said though that if that law is chosen to be used on Bradley John Murdoch, it will be. He will be the first person in North in the NT to have had that right imposed on his sentence, that condition imposed on his sentence, right. But it is likely that that's what they would do. And but yeah, let's hope he never even sees the light of day. Yeah. I mean, if Andrew Fraser's got anything to do with it, he'll get him out.

1:44:50 Don't know that he will before he's dead still, but good. Yeah, He's real gung ho. I mean, if you should watch that. Yeah. Yeah, I actually couldn't watch all the all of it. I got frustrated. I was like, oh, I can't have this. Yeah. Like it's I. Didn't. It wasn't. No, it didn't. There was too many holes in what they were presenting, to be honest. Like there were little aspects of it that I was like, like the guy at the servo in terms of maybe not being him, but I'm still like, still doesn't rule him out.

1:45:17 Yeah. So what you're referring to there is there was some CCTV footage that was released from a service station in Alice Springs. Yeah. And they're saying the police say that it's. Bradley Braddock Murdoch And that's evidence that he was in the area did. He yeah, that's right. But I guess supporters of Bradley say of Murdoch say that that wasn't him because he the person wasn't tall enough. See, he only comes up to this level on the truck and the this level. Nuts or something. On the wheels there's five and on his truck there's seven or something.

1:45:49 Something like that. So there's a few things there, but I mean, whether it's him or not him, people placed him in Alice Springs in different areas. So to me, the fact that he was whether he was or wasn't at that truck stop is a moot point anyway. Yeah, he was seen at the Red Rooster. There's CCTV footage of it, the. DNA is at the you know he's at the scene. Yeah, he's there. He was there. That's right. Exactly, and and to boot he has a profile of someone who could do this. Yes, and it was July 14th.

1:46:19 Yeah, there's so many things that just add up to like it could not be. Him. I really, honestly, I do believe it's him. And I do believe that the right person has been put in jail. I agree. For life for it. So rotten hell. Because there's no way I want to come across him in the dark alley. No way. He's where he should be. I really do feel that. Yeah. Another one that I would suggest people go and watch. If you in any way I think think that Joanne Lee's is lying, go and watch the 60 Minutes interview.

1:46:44 Yeah, because I burst into tears a number of times watching that. If you thought that she came across as heartless or whatever in the original media stuff and she was, she didn't cry and that sort of thing in those interviews. Did Lindy? Chamber no, this is people don't respond how you think they're gonna respond in trauma. And we do need to be more careful of that. But in this 60 Minutes interview, which took place in 2017, the heartbreak for her of like not finding Pete is genuine. She has never married.

1:47:09 No, she's never never had another relationship. No, she works as a social worker Yeah, at her local county in the UK. She is basically a recluse. Like she this has impacted her life so significantly. Yeah, you know, fuck off to anybody who says otherwise. She's. So she's working. She is such a victim in this. Yeah, definitely. She is the victim. I mean, I know Peter is deceased, you know, And I really hope that his body eventually or his remains can be found. Oh, yeah. For the closure for his family and for Joanne.

1:47:44 Yeah. But at the end of the day, she lives with this every single day of her life. Yeah, yeah. So she's organized a memorial to be put up in the area as well. And it's this 4 metre high Falcon which really looks cool. And she wanted somewhere where people could go and, you know, be out there with that and think about Peter in that space, but also just somewhere where they can have a break on that road that can be quite long. And you know. So that was really lovely that that's been put there now.

1:48:14 But not only that with, as we said at the beginning, her, her dad who was Australian, which she knew he was Australian, but she didn't, she had never met him. She ended up through her life has discovered that she has a sister and her sister is Australian. And so she still comes out to Australia and obviously and visits. She's actually now got her citizenship here for Australia, which she, she thought way back when all this took place that she'd never come back. But now she comes back regularly and has this real connection here with her sister, which is just lovely.

1:48:42 And her sister's like 8 years younger than her and they so they do, they look identical. It's crazy. Yeah. So I mean, she's really got this big connection out here. And their sister's so lovely. And she's like, she's, she was saying that her sister would have been like 18 or 19 when this occurred, but she wasn't even in Australia. She was actually travelling around herself. Like, they're so similar in so many ways like that. She was travelling overseas at the time. So she wasn't here in Australia when it, when it happened.

1:49:07 But she's now, like, so regretful that she they hadn't, they know each other about, know about each other because she was like, I wanted to be there for all of this for her, you know, and be there for the trial and be her supporter because, yeah, she didn't have many people around her in that, you know. Yeah. Only limited people from Peter's family could even come out to be there for the trial. Peter's mum and dad and. One of his brothers, Yeah, the only. One who came out and so Joanne didn't really have that close family support.

1:49:35 I mean, I think the Falconios was certainly supportive of her and. Yeah. Understood what she'd been through and the trauma that she'd been through. But it's probably a bit different than having your own family or your own very close support network there. Yeah. And Joanne had to be respectful as well of their mourning and all of what they were. How would you feel like thinking? Are they listening to the police who think that I had something to do with this and that I mean, they although they never thought that, but you would still think to yourself of like, you know, but what if they they did, you know, like, you know, you just trying to manage all that would be awful.

1:50:09 Yeah, just just awful. So she's been through hell, like, you know, and it's just say it's impacted her entire life. It has changed her, her life path that is for sure. From one minute thinking that on the holiday of a lifetime to then get the planning and that they're gonna get married and things in the whole. Future ahead of you. Yeah, I've also read criticisms of her for taking money for the 6 minutes interview. She's only done, I think 2:00. She's not done much, that's for sure. And she did write a book.

1:50:39 Yeah, but she there's criticism for her taking payment for those interviews. I'm like fuck off. The the proceeds she used from one of the payments was to pay for that tribute to Peter. Yeah. And the other one was because she couldn't work for like I. Was gonna say years she used to pay for a therapy. I mean she 100% needs very serious therapy. Absolutely. Like fuck off people. Yeah, You know, of course she didn't want to have to profit from this. No, you know she nobody would want to be in this situation to then and what I think it was like 50,000 and pounds.

1:51:12 That's not a life changing amount of money that kind of supported her for a year or two. Like fuck off, fuck off. Stop. Stop being horrible to the victim. Yes, 100% Yeah, awful. I really feel for her and I really feel for Peter's family and I really hope that one day, I mean, I don't think it'll happen, but you never know. One day his remains may be found. Yeah, absolutely. It'd be really great to have that and just know that, know what happened, maybe get some answers from that. I don't know. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:51:45 Another long episode. Yep. Getting longer and longer. I don't know what's going on. Thank you to everybody for joining us again. We are very much looking forward to, you know, next week's episode. Have you looked up to see what we're doing? I did. Doctor. Death, Doctor. Death. Come at us, doctor. Death. Yeah, this is an interesting one. I don't know that I know a lot about this one, actually. Seriously. Yeah, I honestly, I haven't. Oh, the long formats. Oh, you're probably a bit late to listen to the Long Form podcast.

1:52:15 Yeah, so good. But there's also a TV series. Yeah, and it's got Joshua Jackson, hasn't it? I love it. So I'll be into that. I. Love him. Were you? Were you a Pacey? Kind of a gal, No. OK, sorry. I'm a bit older than you. And Pacey, yes, but more so Mighty Ducks. Oh oh. Quack quack quack quack talk about this more next week All right thank you everybody for joining us We look forward to seeing you again next week Don't forget to like, subscribe comment. We really, really appreciate it when we. Share us with a friend That's really that would be amazing.

1:52:51 Excellent. Stay curious, crime besties. Hi.