Episode 51 - Susan Cox Powell

0:15 Here we are again for another episode of Two Crime Besties.

0:18 Meg, how are? You.

0:19 I've been better. I'm just yeah, I'm hoping my

0:22 voice holds out today. I'm doing OK.

0:24 I haven't had much voice since last time we recorded.

0:27 Pretty much the next morning I woke up with like barely any

0:31 voice. Severe case of laryngitis.

0:34 Yeah, or drag queen Itis. Yeah, sometimes, as we call it.

0:37 Yeah, it was pretty, pretty deep, pretty low.

0:40 So yeah, we're we're working through that.

0:42 So I apologise now and I'm hoping they'll edit out any

0:45 coughing fits I have. Yeah, luckily you're an editing

0:50 aficionado. Oh, sometimes it's it's not easy

0:54 at times. Yeah, you talk too much.

0:58 It's hard to find a break in a conversation.

1:01 Yeah, yeah. It's not my fault.

1:03 Not. It's never, it's never.

1:04 No, no. I've had a busy week.

1:07 We It was my eldest son's birthday this week so.

1:10 Happy birthday Oh. He had a We had a family

1:14 gathering on the weekend and Peter made a brisket.

1:17 Oh, we've spoken about. Him and his brisket on the potty

1:21 before. And true to form, there was

1:24 brisket grease from one end of the kitchen to the other by the

1:27 end. But it was delicious, so it was

1:29 well worth the clean up. Oh, good.

1:31 And yeah, I was. Loves brisket.

1:33 He loves brisket. Yeah.

1:35 And because you can't really buy a small brisket.

1:39 No, there's no. So we had leftovers for days.

1:41 So by the end of it I was like, I cannot, I just do not want to

1:44 eat anymore brisket for a bit now.

1:45 So yeah, that was fun. And the rest of it I, I just

1:51 feel like the chaos of this week has really gotten to me.

1:55 Like adding in that extra thing of a birthday, which is fun and

1:59 exciting and all those things. It's also exhausting.

2:02 And it's mentally exhausted stuff like, and I got everything

2:04 in place I want, you know, you want to make people special for

2:07 them. But there's elements of, you

2:08 know, yeah, there's just extra things.

2:10 Yeah. So that's.

2:11 OK, it's all fun. It's all good fun.

2:14 It is. We've had that and then I just,

2:17 we're off the back of the King's Birthday long weekend, so we're

2:21 obviously recording a couple of weeks in advance to this coming

2:24 out. But my God, it was nice to have.

2:26 Our kids ended up having four days off in a row because they

2:28 had an extra day, yeah, off school, which was just lovely.

2:33 Do you know what? My kids needed it.

2:34 I needed it because I was sick. Like, so.

2:36 I mean, it was 4 days of and the weather was terrible, horrible,

2:40 horrible. Which I was like, thank you,

2:41 because then I don't feel guilty for not taking them out

2:43 somewhere. Yeah, but they were more than

2:45 happy. I thought, oh, they're gonna

2:47 climb the walls. Didn't they were actually

2:49 embraced just like, I mean, they, they've got this switch

2:53 game they play of like NBA stuff.

2:55 Oh, cool. And they spent the most of the

2:56 weekend, which I mean, bad parenting, maybe, I don't know,

2:58 but I was sick. Hello.

3:00 They were on the switch most of the weekend, creating their own

3:02 team and stuff. And they banter between the two

3:04 of them and they got along the entire time.

3:07 I think I might have, might have broken up one argument like the

3:10 for the four like 4 days. Oh, like this is winning.

3:14 That is a win. Yeah.

3:15 They were having a great time. That is awesome.

3:17 Yeah, it was hilarious. They created like characters in

3:19 their NBA game of like the dog, like has a player that that

3:23 fucking Axolotl has a has a player fucking Axolotl.

3:26 But they made the players look like they they're at their pets.

3:29 That's that's incredible. It was very cool.

3:31 Very cool. Do you want to tell the people

3:34 what you're doing this weekend re the Axolotl?

3:38 Oh, well, OK, so again, 'cause I was sick, I didn't bet, didn't

3:43 like push Brody over the weekend to clean the Axolotl tank.

3:46 I was, like, I mentioned it a number of times, like by the end

3:48 of the weekend, that needs to get done, you know, like, and

3:51 'cause I wasn't like, like, right, I'm here 'cause I mean,

3:54 he does it. But I support like, you know,

3:56 make sure the water doesn't go everywhere.

3:58 It does require, you know, some intervention.

4:01 I had not supervision. Absolutely.

4:03 That's minimum. Yeah.

4:04 So I am there and directing around when I normally do it.

4:06 So because I wasn't really up for that, I wasn't kind of going

4:09 let's do this now, like let's get out.

4:11 So by the end of the weekend I was like, look, partially my

4:13 fault. I'll take one for the team next

4:16 weekend. I will clean the tank while

4:18 you're at your dad's. And because it needs to get, I

4:20 can't last another another week after that needs to get done.

4:23 So I'll do it. Oh, my God.

4:26 But it wasn't until later after me saying that that it's dawned

4:29 on me that you clean that tank, the axle little has to exit that

4:34 tank going on another bucket. And I have to get him out and

4:39 get him, get him back in and see, Brody when he does that, he

4:43 just he picks him up and cuddles him and kiss him like he has

4:49 this little moment of like, you know, like they're because they

4:51 can live out of water. Not for like a long time.

4:55 Yeah. But he he loves doing it.

4:56 He loves taking him out and having his little cuddle time

4:58 with him and then putting him in the bucket while we clean the

5:02 tank. And then he has another final

5:04 little kiss and cuddle and that and he puts him back in.

5:08 That ain't happening. Oh.

5:09 No, I don't even know how I'm going to get him in and out.

5:12 Kyle, you are not going to be getting kisses and cuddles this

5:14 weekend. Kyle will be happy.

5:15 About that I would imagine so actually, Kyle's gonna find this

5:20 this tank tank change a lot less stressful than.

5:23 All will he, though, because I just don't know how I'm gonna

5:27 manage to get him out and in without touching him.

5:29 I don't want to touch. Yeah, A.

5:30 Scoop or a bucket or. Something no, I'm I'm serious.

5:32 I just something nice and suggested using like the like I

5:36 use a jug to get the water out. It's like just scoop him up in

5:39 the jug and I'm like a good plan.

5:41 But you're still gonna have to put your hand like, into the Oh,

5:43 no. No.

5:44 Am I? No.

5:44 No, like into the tank, will you?

5:46 Oh yeah, yeah, I'll have to put it in my hand into like, yeah,

5:49 yeah. Like to get that.

5:50 Oh, that'll I'll do it before a shower, like at least.

5:52 Oh yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah.

5:54 Then go in and scrub yourself down.

5:56 Oh, it's just. I can't believe what I've

5:59 committed to here. I can't believe it either.

6:02 It just never dawned on me the actual process of what I was

6:05 clear because that step, Brody, that's the one step no matter

6:08 what Brody does. Yeah.

6:09 So it just didn't enter my head of like if all the other bits of

6:13 it. I'm not, I'm OK with them.

6:14 I've cleaned fish tanks and yeah, everything else over the

6:16 years. No dramas.

6:17 But yeah, yeah. Oh God, I'm an idiot.

6:21 I shouldn't have got a buddy Axe a little for him.

6:23 My own fault. Yeah, you've only got yourself

6:26 to blame for this one already. Will be happy when he comes home

6:31 and he doesn't have to do that. Tank and yeah, sort it out.

6:34 No mate, no mate, So what again? So if you don't clean the tank,

6:37 does it just go all yuck? Oh, the water goes.

6:39 Yuck. Yeah, it's a bit cloudy and

6:40 stuff at the moment, like it's not looking great.

6:42 I mean, he looks happy enough, but yeah, it's dirty and right,

6:45 'cause you need to 'cause you use a vacuum thing, clean up all

6:47 the stones and yeah, why 'cause all the excess food bits and the

6:51 poop I guess will get. Down there, right?

6:53 Yeah. Pebbles and it's not pleasant.

6:55 No. Get a dog, get a fucking dog.

6:58 We've. Gotta clean up dog poop.

7:00 Do you know what that's at least that's a poop and scoop thing.

7:02 Yeah. That situation, you know the the

7:06 axolotl situation is. Serious, serious business.

7:12 And at least with the dog, like we've trained Luna to just poo

7:14 down one side of the house. This is it.

7:15 So at least it's in one spot. It's easy.

7:18 Yeah, that's Cruise. Yeah, unless it's raining, in

7:20 which case she's like, if you think I'm gonna walk around the

7:23 side. Of the house to do my poof, I

7:25 get that. You are sadly mistaken my

7:28 friend. That's the one thing with Chris

7:30 that I love, that like you go out with him for a walk and he

7:32 will not shit. Oh my God Luna shits like 3

7:35 times on every. Walk and thank God 'cause I'm

7:38 sorry, but he's a more than a handful.

7:39 Oh yes, I'm not scooping that up with a hand and like a butt and

7:43 a bag. I think like, that's not Oh my.

7:45 God. Oh, that's great.

7:47 I, I didn't even actually purposely train him that way.

7:49 It just well, how he's a bit like Ollie.

7:52 He doesn't like to shit out shit outside the house.

7:54 Needs his comfort zone in order to feel comfortable enough to

7:58 yeah, relax those muscles. Oh, I love that for you,

8:04 actually. Yeah, yeah, no idea.

8:05 So good. Yeah, that would just.

8:08 I have to take yeah, I when I take Luna for a walk, minimum 3

8:11 bags. Yeah, normally I take 4 just in

8:13 case, but she she will at least do at least two, usually 3.

8:17 Yeah, yeah. Oh God, that's awful.

8:19 It is. It's freaking awful.

8:21 I mean. It's not in your backyard then,

8:22 but you kind of pick them up like.

8:23 Yeah, well, at least in your backyard you can pick them up

8:26 whenever you want. Yeah, this is it.

8:27 Like we've. Spent a lot of time on this

8:29 podcast talking about poo. Oh, something else has been

8:33 talking a lot about poo lately is the mushroom trial, which is

8:37 going on at the moment, which probably by the time people

8:39 actually listen over, probably over, and they have a verdict,

8:42 which, yeah, fill us in, Yeah. We're on it.

8:46 Are you listening to the daily podcast, the ABC one?

8:48 Yeah, it's really good. I've been like following.

8:50 I did miss it for a few days there, and I've caught back up

8:52 again now. Yeah.

8:53 But like, Oh my God, I'm just. I'm here for it.

8:56 Aw, same. Oh my God, It's so interesting.

8:59 We were just saying about how like if if she hadn't have

9:02 actually killed people, people hadn't have actually died.

9:06 Yeah, it would be a really interesting case to talk like

9:10 the kids who are interested in it would be like fascinated by

9:13 it. Yeah.

9:14 I mean, it's still, you know, adult content, I guess by the

9:16 fact that, you know, death and all death.

9:19 Yeah, potential murder. Although I'm pretty sure.

9:23 I'm pretty sure. I'm curious to see what what the

9:28 verdict ends up. Intrigued because from an

9:30 outsider listening and I think the ABC have done a very good

9:32 job of like just putting their facts of what the yeah what has

9:35 come across in the in the in the case that I think the jury I

9:40 feel like the jury's going to go a particular way but same I'm

9:42 intrigued to see what they come up with because it is it is a

9:44 very interesting one that you've.

9:46 They're trying to basically just prove intent yes that's all that

9:48 this element is we with. She admits there's death cat

9:51 there was death cat mushrooms mushrooms in that dish but did

9:55 she seek them out Did she put them in there intentionally to

9:58 kill them these people. So I guess that's the it's a

10:02 very hard thing to. It's hard to prove intent.

10:05 And have they proved that enough?

10:06 And I'm like and I, I, I feel like.

10:09 Agreed. But whether Julian?

10:11 Takes that for whatever reason, yeah.

10:13 At the minute, what we're listening to is the bit around

10:15 how, you know, she felt about herself and the surgery she was

10:20 going to be having that wasn't quite the ovarian cancer sort of

10:25 surgery that she said it was going to be.

10:28 That's kind of where we're up to it.

10:29 Oh. No, she, well, like I said

10:31 yesterday that she finished on the stand.

10:33 Oh. See, I haven't listened to

10:34 yesterday yet. Oh well, OK.

10:37 She just lies Spanish she does and there and that to me is

10:40 there's there's your intent. She's you wouldn't be lying.

10:43 You wouldn't have gotten rid of that dehydrator exactly because

10:46 she said like originally it was. She got rid of the hydrator a

10:48 bit dehydrated because her ex-husband said to her, is that

10:51 what you used to poison my? Parents with Yeah.

10:54 And he says he didn't say that. Yeah, now to me, regardless of

10:58 whether he said that or not. Why is that in your head?

11:01 Got what one said. So he's saying she's lying that

11:03 he said that. Yeah, But to me, you got rid of

11:06 the dehydrator, God, at that date, after the fact, for some

11:09 reason. Yeah.

11:10 Therefore, you're trying to hide evidence.

11:12 Yeah. The.

11:12 Phones the. Phone for somebody who said he

11:15 was at least so intelligent, she's really done.

11:18 Some dumb shit narcissism comes in and she thinks she's more

11:21 intelligent than everyone. Else actually, in fact, she's

11:23 actually not not Yeah, it's a really interesting thing.

11:26 Oh God. So for those of you who haven't

11:28 caught up, Mushroom Daily, I think it's called.

11:30 Yeah, really good, really, really worth it.

11:33 You can easily catch up too because they're only like 20

11:35 minute episode. Yeah, they're pretty nice.

11:37 Easily stick it on 1.5. Yeah, get get through it real

11:40 quick. Yeah, yeah, no, it's very good.

11:42 Oh, the other thing I'm gonna say to you too.

11:44 I've watched Sirens. Tell me what you think.

11:47 I yes, I finished it. Yeah.

11:50 Yeah. What did you think?

11:51 It got a bit weird in the end. It did.

11:53 And I. Still, actually I don't feel

11:55 like I've got an answer. No, there's no answer.

11:57 Although, yeah, there is no answer really.

12:00 Although I think they lead you down a certain path, right?

12:04 But then you can interpret that in whichever way you want.

12:06 I went because, yeah, I got to the end and just went.

12:10 Who's the siren? Yeah.

12:12 Which one is it? Him.

12:13 Yeah. Is it her?

12:15 I think it's him. Yeah.

12:17 So what? Should we not give it away?

12:19 I don't. I don't know what I Maybe we

12:21 shouldn't say much more, but watch it and then let us know

12:23 what you think. Watch it I.

12:25 Really good watch, but it would just.

12:27 Annoy me at the end of like going hey am I cut on what am I

12:29 meant to make a decision? I think I think you're meant to

12:31 make a decision I. Can't make decisions.

12:34 I'm here for entertainment, people.

12:36 Give it all to me, yeah. Spell it out, yes.

12:39 The other exciting thing that's happened TV wise is Real

12:43 Housewives of Atlanta. Oh, Atlanta, Not Atlanta.

12:47 OC. No, no, no, no, no with Larsa.

12:53 I've just had it. Larsa, Larsa, Larsa.

12:56 I think you're on one that I don't watch.

12:58 Oh my God. Is that Atlanta?

13:00 No, it's not Atlanta. It's.

13:02 Miami. Miami, thank you.

13:04 Oh my God. Oh, yeah.

13:06 I don't watch. I don't watch Miami or Atlanta.

13:07 I'm not up. I'm not up to them.

13:09 I'm not. I haven't watched.

13:10 Do I need to? Oh, you have to watch Miami?

13:13 Oh my God. From the get go.

13:14 Yeah, yeah. OK.

13:16 Or at least start a season or two ago.

13:19 OK. Yeah, so good.

13:23 So. So good.

13:24 Is it Salt Lake City? Good?

13:27 No. OK, because you know what I

13:28 would have watched because I've released the first few episodes

13:31 of Now What Next Gen. Seriously.

13:36 So in it is Gia, as in like New Jersey, what's her face's

13:42 daughter? There's Kim's called Salziak's

13:45 daughter in. Oh my God.

13:46 Brooks is in it from Salt Lake City, and then there's a So

13:50 they're all the housewives he wants.

13:51 But then there's other characters in there too from

13:53 other oh, no, the other one from housewives is Riley so Kim

13:58 Solziak. And what's her face?

14:00 The singer Candy can't. Oh God, that's gonna annoy me.

14:06 OK, but yeah, another one from that.

14:08 Anyway, from that they used. To oh, I'm gonna all the time

14:09 get into. This So yeah, no, it's it's a

14:12 whole new world. I can't.

14:14 I just don't know. I don't know.

14:15 I don't know how I'm gonna go with it.

14:16 OK, 'cause they're they're they're different creatures.

14:19 That's. It and they're so much younger

14:20 than us I think the thing about the Real Housewives is like even

14:24 though they're filthy rich and their lives and do not resemble

14:27 ours, there's. Maybe yours?

14:30 They're at least like our age and like we, we get it.

14:34 There's like, I kind of get where they're at in their life.

14:36 Yeah, there's a level of I guess maybe hormones we understand.

14:38 Yeah, maybe. But yeah, no, the money we may

14:42 not, but yeah, yeah. So it's it's, yeah, you

14:45 definitely relate to a lot of the topics.

14:46 They talk about yeah. But no, the all the young ones

14:49 like it's I'm. Gonna give it a go I'm gonna

14:52 give it a go yeah, you never know there's.

14:53 Only there's only been a couple of episodes released so far.

14:56 But then I, I can't get into those like, oh, you know, the,

15:01 the ones where they're all like Love Island and all those.

15:04 I'm just not in not into stuff at all.

15:05 No, I think there's what is it? Someone recently saw me to watch

15:07 people naughty day fiance or something and I'm like.

15:11 I used to love. Well, I think I watched like.

15:13 Say 30 minutes. Of one episode, I mean I.

15:15 Can't. Ohh I used to love like I'm

15:17 talking probably 10 years ago I was.

15:20 On that show, yeah. No, I haven't.

15:22 Watched that in forever. Yeah, and I couldn't get into it

15:25 at all. I was like, now it's not for me.

15:26 Yeah, I I literally what? I didn't realise I checked out

15:29 like. We're high brow.

15:30 We're, we're, we're totally high brow.

15:32 Oh well, that's why, yes. Just ask us housewives only.

15:39 That's it. Shall we get into today's case?

15:43 Oh, I think we are there. We're there.

15:45 It's actually oh quickly. First, I've got some shout outs.

15:48 Oh yes, let's do. That yeah.

15:49 So we've had, again, we say this every week, loving the

15:53 engagement peeps, keep it coming.

15:55 We just love it. Love reading what you've got to

15:58 say. I love it when people comment on

16:01 the the content and like actually engage on that level as

16:05 well. We've had quite a lot of that

16:06 lately. Anyway, shout outs today are to

16:08 Cosy Stacey Petrie, Lisa B, Michelle B Jodes 1151.

16:15 So thank you everybody. As we say, we try and get back

16:18 to everyone. If we don't, please don't think

16:21 we haven't read it because we have.

16:22 It's just that we might be doing other things at the time and we

16:25 don't quite have the time to. I do the terrible thing of like,

16:28 I read it and go, yeah, yeah. And I'll respond.

16:30 I responded in my brain. Yeah.

16:32 And then but I'm caught with something with like the kids

16:34 interrupt or whatever, and I walk away and go, Oh my God, did

16:35 I reply on that or not? I do.

16:36 Show real life all the time. Like as in like to text messages

16:39 and stuff. It's not personal.

16:41 No, no, not at all. Not at all.

16:42 Like so yeah, please know that it was a acknowledged.

16:45 Absolutely. We acknowledge, Yeah, yeah, we

16:47 will get and I often will go back like later and go, my God,

16:50 I didn't write what I thought I wrote.

16:52 Yeah, or I didn't actually respond.

16:54 Yeah, yeah. So today we are covering the

16:57 case of Susan Cox's PAL. Yeah, this might not be one that

17:01 everyone's as a fait with. I guess maybe some of the other

17:03 ones we've done more recently, especially like the Australian

17:06 true crime ones. Yeah, but yeah, it's a oh God,

17:09 it's a biggie. And we probably need to do a few

17:11 disclaimers and trigger warnings before we start because we will

17:15 discuss suicide, we will discuss pornography and child related

17:23 aspects of that. What else got a bit of

17:25 everything? Domestic abuse, yes.

17:28 And. In all forms.

17:31 That's right. It's actually really horrible

17:34 case. Yeah.

17:35 And yeah, one that if if you're not ready to listen to it this

17:39 week, maybe give it a miss. Because it's a pretty, it's a

17:41 heavy one. It is definitely a heavy one.

17:43 And it's, yeah, there's a lot in this, but it's fascinating.

17:46 It is. But yeah, if you're not in the

17:48 space. Quite, quite a different vibe to

17:50 the market, Stewart. Case, yeah, we've literally gone

17:53 from 1 extreme literally to the other opposite end of that

17:56 spectrum. This is, it involves all those

17:59 aspects of cases that we go that's hard.

18:01 Every bit of like what you think might be bad is in this one,

18:05 yeah. So Susan Marie Cox was born on

18:09 the 16th of October in 1981 and look, she grew up in AI would

18:18 say a fairly stereotypical family they grew up in.

18:21 She grew up in Washington and she had a really loving mum and

18:26 dad who and who just adored her. Yeah, they were lovely.

18:32 Stereotypical family people have said that they were very warm

18:36 and welcoming and they had a very strong faith-based to their

18:41 families. So they were Mormons.

18:43 Mormons so belonged to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter

18:46 Day Saints, and they really upheld a lot of those Mormon

18:51 traditions and Mormon beliefs in terms of the way they were

18:55 raising their family. But not to the point of that

18:57 extremist style. That you might hear about

18:59 polygamy or anything like that in this, in this family in me,

19:02 Yeah. And they were just a really

19:05 good, loving, caring family. Which was one of four, yes

19:10 girls, can't remember what what number she was in that, but they

19:14 all seemed very close. Yeah.

19:18 Yeah. So she met a man by the name of

19:21 Joshua Powell. He was born on the 20th of

19:24 January in 1976, so he was about five years older than her, but

19:29 nothing significant. He was born to his mom and dad,

19:34 Steven and Terry Capel, in Puyallup, WA.

19:38 He had two brothers, Michael and John, and two sisters, Jennifer

19:42 and Alina. These, the reason we're sort of

19:46 naming them more so is because they actually become quite

19:50 significant, or several of these characters become quite

19:53 significant in the story as we go along.

19:56 Yeah, I think the. So they were, they belong to the

19:59 Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints as well.

20:03 They had a very. Dysfunctional home life.

20:08 Very different to Susan. 'S very different to Susan's.

20:10 So where Susan's family was close, Josh's family weren't.

20:14 It was a very tumultuous and. Weirdly close in a different

20:20 kind of way, I guess. Weren't they in that?

20:22 So Steven and his wife separated, but not until the

20:27 children were teenagers, so quite later into their marriage.

20:31 But yeah, there was some interesting dynamics of their

20:35 relationships. Should we put it that way?

20:36 Yeah, We will get to more detail of that as we go along.

20:40 Yeah. In the 90s, Joshua was living in

20:45 Tacoma. He was a student at the

20:47 University of Washington. And he, at this time, he

20:49 actually became involved with a woman by the name of Catherine

20:54 Terry Everett. They met at an LDS congregation

20:58 and he was infatuated by her. And the only reason I'm bringing

21:05 her up is because it kind of speaks to his character and the

21:10 way that he engaged with women. He, Joshua had a lot of audio

21:17 journals and these after all of the events that we're going to

21:21 speak about transpired, these audio journals were actually

21:24 made available and made public. And Oh my God, the things that

21:29 he talks about are deeply, deeply disturbing.

21:33 But I, I wanted to bring this up now because I think it really

21:37 shows that it wasn't because of Susan, even though, you know,

21:41 we'll come to why he says everything Susan's fault.

21:45 He was like this before he engaged in his before he even

21:48 knew Susan, before he'd even met Susan.

21:51 He had a lot of romantic interests as a young man, many

21:57 of which were not reciprocated, and this angered him.

22:00 He did not like that he wanted relationships.

22:04 He was met with rejection left, right and center.

22:09 He really unnerved the women that he pursued.

22:13 So he would be incredibly intense and he would just scare

22:20 them off. He, he was just weird and

22:23 creepy. And when you listen to his audio

22:25 recordings, you can totally understand why he he talks

22:29 about. He basically stalked these

22:31 women. Yeah.

22:32 And couldn't believe that they then didn't want to go out on a

22:35 date with him. Yes.

22:37 Now, it's probably worth noting that in the LDS faith, there is

22:41 no sex before marriage. There's no really no touching,

22:45 kissing, anything like that. If if you're sort of really

22:48 adhering, there's sort of a purity culture within the LDS

22:51 church. And Josh had ambitions beyond

22:57 that, I think. And so for the fact that he was

23:01 pursuing LDS girls who were raised here into the.

23:06 Culture. Yeah, yeah.

23:08 I mean, the fact that he was so, oh, vehemently, like pursuing

23:13 them in a way that they didn't want to be pursued, oh, he's

23:16 just gross. Yeah, so Catherine and him

23:19 became quite serious as well. Engaged.

23:23 No, they were engaged, but they were moving towards quite

23:26 serious. But he became quite controlling

23:29 and she ended up going to visit a friend of hers out of state at

23:33 one stage. And so at that point, I, I think

23:37 what's kind of gone on there is this girlfriend, obviously she's

23:39 going to visit. It's gone.

23:40 Get out while you can. She ended up breaking up with

23:42 him over the phone at that point, just didn't return.

23:44 So yeah, it was pretty, yeah. I think she.

23:47 She got out. She's.

23:48 She did the right thing, Yeah, Dodged.

23:50 A bullet. For sure, absolutely dodged a

23:52 bullet. Yeah, so Susan and and Josh meet

23:56 at an LDS, the meet up like for singles.

24:00 And look, Susan grew up and her sort of goal in life, really her

24:05 absolute ultimate goal. She wanted to be a wife and a

24:07 mother. They were her absolute be all

24:10 and end all things. They met a lot to her.

24:12 So she met Josh and they dated very quickly and within two

24:17 months they were engaged already, though there were red

24:19 flags for her family. They were not too keen on Josh.

24:23 They were, they did sort of give her a few bits of advice here

24:26 and there saying like she was only 19, he was 23 at this

24:30 point. They were saying, look, Josh is

24:33 just a bit odd. Josh is a bit strange.

24:35 And one of his sisters, actually one of her sisters actually said

24:37 to her, look, he's harmless, but he's, you know, he, there's

24:41 something not quite right. I believe her mom even said to

24:44 her when I look at Josh I see darkness which I see darkness in

24:49 his. Eyes or something like this.

24:50 Her mum could just see it. So you see something.

24:53 There was none of them could put their finger on what it was

24:55 about him and no one was like, you know, it's at the start.

24:58 He was like love bombing her, essentially.

25:00 Like he? Well, well, you he was.

25:04 He was a bit of a no. Hoper actually at this point, so

25:06 he'd gotten himself into a lot of debt.

25:08 He was he to me, if we knew nothing else.

25:11 And all we knew at this point was what had happened to this

25:14 point, it was a bit of a no Hooper.

25:15 He'd gotten himself into debt. He didn't work.

25:19 So. But he loved computers and

25:21 always wanted the latest of all the computer games and

25:23 accessories and consoles and all of that sort of stuff and never

25:27 saved up money for them. Like he put them on credit.

25:29 And so when he met Susan, and Susan was even at 19, was very

25:35 fiscally responsible, like she had kind of started to set

25:39 herself up. Yeah, as you said, knowing that

25:41 eventually she wanted to start a family.

25:43 And look, in the LDS Church, it's not uncommon to have

25:46 children quite young. Yes.

25:48 So for her, she was probably thinking in the next few years,

25:51 this is where I'm sort of want to be.

25:52 That's where people were like. What there was a it was huge

25:55 that her parents and her sisters were saying to her, go date as

25:58 many people as you want. Just go to dating.

26:01 Like maybe not this one. So because in the LDS Church,

26:04 typically it would be you're 19 and you've met a guy that seems

26:07 that, you know, if he's nice enough, it'd be like, you know,

26:09 like, yes, you get married, you have killed children.

26:11 That would be a fairly standard thing.

26:12 But they were really kind of sort of forcing this issue a

26:16 little bit of like, let's see what else is out there and

26:20 directing her away, which she didn't because she was not.

26:22 This is the guy. This is the one smitten she.

26:24 Really was smitten. And he did.

26:27 I mean, she kind of became his world.

26:30 And there's there's a video. Clip of their wedding, which

26:34 happened pretty quickly. So no, they got married.

26:36 So they in November 2000 and they were married in April 2021?

26:40 Yeah, like 6/20/2000. And one yeah, sorry, 2000 and.

26:43 One yeah, yeah. So like 6 months after they met

26:46 they married like it was. Very quick, but there's a video

26:49 of their at their wedding of them doing their dance like kind

26:51 of thing right now. I don't know and I don't know

26:53 whether it's hindsight when I look at it, the way he looks at

26:57 her, it's creepy. I thought that it's almost like

27:00 he's and I don't know whether it's him like putting on a show

27:03 of like I'm so in love with you, like creepily, like trying to

27:08 like look at her in this sexual. I don't know that's.

27:14 What I'm saying about when I was talking about him as like this

27:18 younger man pursuing women, it was creepy, yeah.

27:21 And it was like, sexually motivated, I think.

27:26 But then he didn't. Like people touching him.

27:27 No. So I think it it was all about

27:32 like, well, we'll get into it, but maybe watching things like

27:34 that and what the perception of those things.

27:36 Absolutely. Absolutely.

27:38 But yeah, I know exactly what I know the video you're talking

27:40 about 'cause I thought the same thing.

27:42 It really gave me the he really gives you look.

27:45 Oh yuck yuck. Yuck, yuck and.

27:47 And Susan was. 19 and you could tell she was in love.

27:50 She was she. She's a beautiful girl.

27:53 Like. Yeah.

27:54 Stunning, stunning woman. Yeah, But she was only 19, and

27:58 she didn't know. What?

27:59 She didn't know. She had no experience, Right.

28:01 She hadn't had any significant relationships before Josh.

28:03 She was. No, She was a good LDS girl.

28:06 Yeah, You know, doing all the right things.

28:08 Exactly. And she was a cosmetology

28:10 school. Yes, which she finished.

28:13 Well, I think around the time they got married, Yeah, she was

28:16 suddenly. Fairly finishing up sort of

28:17 stuff at that point and. By all accounts, she was very,

28:21 very good at that, but she ended up taking a job with Wells Fargo

28:24 Investments after she finished cosmetology.

28:26 So that was when they. They moved because so when they

28:28 after they first got married, they moved they because Josh had

28:31 well he was working jobs here and everybody lose his job.

28:34 It was in and out of work and things he wasn't able to commit

28:37 to jobs. It was and wasn't where they

28:39 were. He might get sacked but also he

28:40 might quit. Like it was very be tumultuous

28:42 in that respect. He would spend a lot of money,

28:45 no work ethic. He just wanted everything to be

28:47 handed to him. Yeah, but he.

28:49 So they were so he he filed a bankruptcy of with a debt of

28:54 $200,000. So this wasn't a small amount of

28:56 debt. Like really that's a fairly huge

28:58 amount of debt. Pretty sure.

28:59 Did they own their? House when he filed for

29:01 bankruptcy, I think he did because I think the bankruptcy

29:04 didn't actually include their mortgage.

29:05 They were able to keep that separate because they put the

29:08 house in Susan's name, I think, but I think that happened before

29:10 they. Moved in with with Steve and.

29:13 Oh, OK, yeah, I don't know. Yeah, the financial stuff sort

29:18 of got me a little bit trying to track that exactly.

29:19 When that happened, it didn't really.

29:21 I couldn't find dates on things I've got.

29:24 It written down. Yeah, you've got it filed.

29:25 For bankruptcy. In 2007, so OK, so that was.

29:30 After kids, even. Yeah, after they'd had kids.

29:32 OK, so therefore. Yes.

29:33 It must have not included the mortgage and that so Yeah, yeah.

29:36 So but I was still didn't have a lot of money.

29:38 And they moved in with with Josh's dad, which also included

29:42 his at least one of his brothers.

29:45 I think the other brother was in and out a little bit.

29:47 Yep, at that point. And also his youngest sister

29:49 Elena. Elena.

29:50 So so there was also so there was Michael.

29:54 He would have been potentially out in and out with.

29:56 He was in the military. Yes.

29:58 And John was his other brother was diagnosed with schizophrenia

30:02 and bipolar disorder had like quite a few, you know, issues

30:06 with in terms of mental health and other things going on for

30:08 him. So he also was not always at

30:12 home. I guess in that in that in under

30:14 that roof. Alina was a consistent she was

30:16 always under that roof and Steve.

30:18 So they moved in with them to save some money.

30:20 Jennifer by. This stage, his other sister, we

30:23 will get to her. Absolutely.

30:24 She was already married and living with her husband.

30:27 Yes. Out of the home.

30:28 Yeah. Yeah, so.

30:30 They living under his roof a while, but then it was up to I

30:33 think it was not 2004 they moved out of that home and we'll get

30:36 to wine later and moved to West Valley, UT.

30:40 And so they bought a house that they didn't own that house.

30:43 So that's obviously they were saved, if not money, managed to

30:45 buy this place and and in 2005 then had their first child,

30:51 Charles Charlie named after. Named after Susan's dad, Chuck,

30:56 Yeah. So he was born on January 19th

30:59 in 2005, followed on with a second boy, Brayden, born on

31:03 January 2nd of 2007. So already though in this

31:08 marriage there was cracks, you know, like there was.

31:11 So she was, Josh was very controlling.

31:15 So as much as she was the one working at Wells Fargo, she was

31:18 earning the money of the house. Josh was at home on his

31:20 computer, spending a hell of a lot of money with equipment and

31:23 things, but he gave her he'd buy really weird.

31:27 Shit, yeah, he he, they he would control all of their money Yeah,

31:31 and would absolutely berate Susan for spending money on like

31:37 I I there was an A diary entry of Susan.

31:39 So she kept journals yes. She also kept audio Diaries and

31:43 so did Josh. I've never known people to keep

31:45 she wasn't as. No, no Diaries was.

31:47 Absolutely. He was.

31:49 He was, but she. Wasn't she only really kept

31:51 there? Was sort of certain there was

31:52 only a few of hers, but yeah in one of her written.

31:54 Journals, though, she talks about how Josh controlled their

31:59 spending to the point where she had to write down every

32:01 basically every cent that she spent.

32:04 And she bought eggs one day and there were $0.27 more expensive

32:09 than the other shop and he'd expected her to go to the other

32:12 shop. I'm like, would it cost more

32:13 than $0.27 to get to the other shop?

32:14 Get to the other shop. Well, or would it because he

32:17 purposely sold? Yeah, he sold her car just

32:20 behind her back kind of thing. Didn't really tell her so which

32:23 meant that they only had one family car, which he it was his

32:27 car and she then which he didn't work, he was at home.

32:31 She wasn't allowed to use that car to go to work.

32:32 She had to ride her bike 7 miles to work every morning and back

32:36 again every every evening. Yeah, I know.

32:38 Sometimes people joke about I had to walk.

32:42 The school 7 miles in the snow. You kids don't know how good

32:44 you've got. She was, like, in the snow.

32:45 They lived in Utah. Yeah, they lived in Salt Lake

32:49 City, UT, and she had to ride her bike some days in inches of

32:54 snow to get to work. And the only way to get there

32:58 was on this highway that had like a very narrow shoulder.

33:07 Yes, yeah. He was very controlling.

33:10 So he would control how much money she was allowed to have.

33:13 She'd have a certain amount of money.

33:15 I think it was maybe $100 for, like, I don't know how long,

33:17 maybe a couple of weeks even to feed herself and the boys and

33:21 clothe them. Yeah.

33:23 And he didn't want them having certain coats when they lived in

33:25 that kind of where they were just talking about he, you know,

33:27 it was too much to buy the $20 coats that, you know, from

33:30 Target or wherever they were living nearby Walmart.

33:33 Yeah. Yep, he was very tight with her

33:36 having any money, but he spent, he couldn't spend.

33:38 There was no tomorrow. And.

33:39 And he'd buy like random shit that they didn't even need.

33:42 Like no, he was, as you said, he loved the sound of his own

33:45 voice, obviously. So he'd buy camcorders.

33:48 And I mean he also won a camcorder at a Christmas party

33:51 again, we will get to that. But he he would spend money on

33:55 the weirdest shit like rug cleaners and I mean that was in

33:59 the end for a purpose as well. But he would buy the most random

34:03 shit and then just not use it, no?

34:05 But yet she. Had to eat.

34:07 Did you hear about her friend at work said that they'd gotten a

34:12 good deal on cans of chili, Like like canned chili meat, sort of

34:17 like soup. And they bought so much of it

34:21 that every single day Susan would bring a can of chili to

34:24 work because that's all she could afford to bring.

34:27 Well, when I say all she could afford, all Josh would allow her

34:30 to afford to bring to work. And one day her friend opened up

34:34 her drawer and Susan had swapped a can of chili for her friend,

34:38 had brought like a can of tuna and some crackers or something.

34:40 And she said, gotcha, swapped it or something like that.

34:44 And she's like, my can of tuna would have been worth less than

34:46 the can of chili probably. But because she couldn't, you

34:51 know, and she couldn't stand to eat another can of chili.

34:56 She was like, I'd much rather have my friends tuna and

34:58 crackers. But he controlled everything.

35:00 They he didn't like it if she bought like the more expensive

35:03 of anything. No.

35:05 And they had to buy like the cheapest hot dogs and like, I'm

35:08 talking not nourishing food really, you know, at the end of

35:11 the day. Yeah.

35:12 Anyway. But the the controlling

35:14 behaviours got so bad within the household, even that one of her

35:17 friends said that she didn't want to go to the house anymore

35:20 where Josh was don't be under that same roof.

35:22 So she would organize their catch up.

35:24 She wouldn't want to not see Susan.

35:25 That was not what she was. She knew that Susan was in a

35:28 situation where she needed her friends, so she would just make

35:31 sure she organized all their catch UPS either at her house or

35:33 they'd meet somewhere because it was just awful to be in that

35:36 house. That's that's a vibe no one

35:38 needs. And the fact that he was always.

35:40 There like he would feel probably uncomfortable,

35:43 especially with that kind of, I don't know, that kind of that

35:46 creepy vibe. As you said, it's not it's not

35:48 comfortable. And he actually, he even says in

35:51 his some of his audio journals, he even says, I don't like

35:54 people coming over because then we have to feed them.

35:56 Oh yeah, like. Yeah, you know, and.

35:58 So, you know, that costs money. Yeah.

36:00 And This is Money that he. Not even he's earning, you know,

36:02 it's not even he's like going, I'm earning all the I'm earning,

36:05 you know, a small amount of money and I don't want to spend

36:07 it on people. Susan's earning the money and

36:09 you're saying don't spend any of your that money on anybody.

36:11 Like he's the controlling nature of him was awful.

36:15 So by July 2009, Susan was she knew she wasn't in a good

36:19 situation. She knew that things weren't

36:21 weren't going well and that she needed to make some changes

36:24 here. But she also knew and didn't

36:26 have an understanding that it wasn't a safe environment for

36:30 her and the boys. So there had been actually one

36:33 particular conversation where in this sort of where she was

36:37 getting like to a point of like, I need to leave where Josh had

36:40 said to her over my dead body, you'll leave me and over my dead

36:45 body that you'll take those boys away.

36:47 And I don't, I can't remember if it was his sister or her sister

36:50 that overheard that conversation, but it was

36:52 witnessed by. Yeah.

36:54 OK. So it was Jennifer.

36:55 Jennifer. Yeah.

36:55 OK. Yeah.

36:56 I wasn't sure which one, but yeah.

36:58 So that 100% was said, which is just awful.

37:02 And I do believe he meant that as strictly as it came out of

37:06 his mouth. But so she was, she did go and

37:08 see a lawyer and get some advice very much on the download.

37:12 She had to keep all these things very, very quiet from him.

37:16 The lawyer suggested that she do some documenting of their assets

37:20 and those sorts of things so that if Josh got wind of her

37:23 leaving and he sold things on her or hid things, that that

37:26 she'd have a documentation of what was there so that things

37:29 could be split more, more equally if that was to occur.

37:33 So this that and you can actually see those videos if you

37:35 wanna go and check them out. It's kind of her personality

37:38 comes across in that a little bit of you get a real vibe of

37:40 who she was. I think that a vibe that she was

37:43 a. Broken woman.

37:44 Yeah, because the way she talks about it.

37:46 So I I wrote down a couple of quotes.

37:48 Yeah. She wrote, I want it to be

37:49 documented that there is extreme turmoil in our marriage.

37:53 And she also wrote if I die, it may not be an accident, even if

37:56 it looks like 1. So she wrote that.

37:58 Actually in her will that she put in.

38:01 So all this went into that those videos, she put a will into a

38:05 safety deposit box that she actually got her friend to do

38:08 for her. She got her friend to go and put

38:10 those in there. And on the envelope of the will

38:12 that she handwrote, it was that she had on the envelope, it said

38:15 on the front of it for my family and friends, except Josh.

38:18 I do not trust him. Like it's.

38:21 Yeah. And then she, she knew.

38:23 She. Knew.

38:24 Where she knew that she was in danger.

38:26 She really didn't like she's forced.

38:28 She's foreseeing something and not not to the point of like

38:31 anyone thinking that. Oh, it's a bit extreme, you

38:33 know. No, she she knew what she was

38:35 actually up against. I really do.

38:37 It's awful. Yeah, for sure.

38:40 Yeah. The other thing is she, the

38:41 reason she couldn't do a lot of these things and go to do the

38:45 safety deposit box or go anywhere beyond what she was

38:50 allowed to do by Josh is because he would check mileage on the

38:53 car. Yeah.

38:54 So she she literally could not go anywhere without him knowing

38:59 that she'd gone somewhere. Yeah, she even like.

39:01 Hid notes and things in her desk at work yeah, so there was down

39:06 the track we'll get to like, you know, when the police

39:08 investigate things, they did find all these things along the

39:10 way, like. And so she left little snippets

39:13 of information with friends and all those sorts of things that

39:16 were able to be put pieced together a little.

39:17 So she said, she said to. Friends that if anything happens

39:21 to me, make sure the police look at Josh and her friends were

39:26 like, well, what we need, we need you to get out what, what

39:28 are we doing? But she was starting to get a A.

39:30 Plan in place. Yeah, that's right.

39:32 There she was seeking advice, she was trying to get things in

39:34 place. But what we know is so on

39:38 Saturday the 5th of December in 2009, Josh and Susan went to

39:45 Josh. So he had a job by this time,

39:47 but it was again on and off, you know what he was actually doing.

39:51 But they went to the Christmas party, and they'd had, by by all

39:54 accounts, a fairly good night. He was very eager to get home

39:58 early enough so that they didn't have to pay the babysitter too

40:01 much. And anyway, while he was at this

40:06 sorry, at this Christmas party, he actually won a camcorder.

40:11 So they get home, they go to bed that night, relieve the

40:14 babysitter, go to bed, it's all good the next morning.

40:16 So by this stage, I think it's also worth noting that Josh had

40:20 really sort of defected from the LDS faith.

40:23 He did not want to go to church in.

40:28 They had tried some counselling because their marriage was

40:30 obviously very fractured. And he had agreed to attend

40:34 church, I think one Sunday a month.

40:36 And Susan had agreed to not go to church one Sunday a month to

40:40 try and I don't know, repair things or see things from each

40:43 other's perspective. But on this particular Sunday,

40:47 on the 6th of December in 2009, it was just Susan, Charles and

40:51 Braden who went to church, their neighbor.

40:55 So who the neighbor was actually, who they met at church

40:58 that day and then invited over, it was Giovanna.

41:02 Her son was the one who'd been babysitting the boys the night

41:04 before. And, and anyway, she came over

41:07 and were they doing some craft activity or something like that?

41:11 She came over for some reason, Yeah.

41:14 Anyway, her testimony is that she left the house at about 5:00

41:17 PM that day and that Josh had been making pancakes for.

41:20 The for and the boys and the thing with that and Jennifer,

41:26 his sister attest to this, that that is odd because he refused

41:31 not, I mean just didn't do it. He refused to do any of the

41:34 cooking. That was always a Susan thing to

41:36 do and so also said. That he was very attentive to

41:40 Susan that day, blanket over her.

41:42 Gave her her pancakes and and said, here, go and put a

41:45 blanket. And she even commented to

41:47 Giovanna like, oh, he's so lovely, you know, doing that for

41:50 me and that's so great. But she would then not long

41:53 after eating these pancakes, felt unwell.

41:56 And so I'm going to go and lie down.

41:57 I'm just not feeling very well. So she left the room, went

42:01 upstairs to go and have a lay down.

42:04 And Giovanna was still sort of there talking with Josh and

42:07 that, but all of a sudden he was like, I'm going to take the boys

42:09 sledding, like, you know, put their coats on and was like,

42:11 very adamant he was leaving and actually walked out the door

42:14 before Jovana even had left. Like, so she was still in the

42:17 house. She sort of closed up the door

42:19 behind her as she left. So which left Susan, Susan at

42:22 home laying down, not feeling 100%.

42:25 And Josh and the boys off sledding in the afternoon.

42:27 So quite cold and snowy in that sense.

42:30 So yeah. So it was a Stormfront.

42:32 Rolling in? Absolutely.

42:33 Very. So it was.

42:34 Actually snowing, yeah. And it was very cold and it was

42:38 almost, it's been described as almost Blizzard like conditions

42:41 were rolling in. And we've known that there was

42:43 this, you know, big sort of storm of the snowstorm coming,

42:46 Yes. So.

42:50 What happens next? Yeah, well.

42:52 So from this point, we basically the the next.

42:56 So at this point, we wake up the next morning to, I mean, Susan

43:00 should have gone to work, Josh should have gone to work.

43:02 The boys should have gone to their child carer who named

43:05 Debbie Caldwell. Now, Debbie Caldwell said that

43:08 every single day that the boys were expected to be with her,

43:10 they rocked up on time and there was, you know, never any issues.

43:13 So when they didn't arrive and there was no phone call to say,

43:16 oh, we're all homesick, you know, or whatever, all the

43:17 blizzards, you know, come in and we we can't, we snowed in or

43:20 whatever reason for them to not be.

43:22 There was no communication. She was like, this is not right.

43:25 Contacted, tried to call and those sort of things couldn't

43:28 get hold of anyone. So she ended up calling Josh's

43:31 mum, who was living at the time with his older sister Jennifer.

43:37 She spoke to Josh's mum and said, look, this is unusual.

43:40 I can't get hold of Susan or Josh.

43:42 And there's they're, they're not here.

43:44 They haven't arrived for their normal drop off for the morning.

43:48 So Josh's mum is like and Jennifer are both like that's,

43:51 that is really odd. Let's go out to their house.

43:53 They went too far away. They drove over.

43:56 So by about midday they got out to his house, the Josh and

43:59 Susan's house, just really quickly.

44:00 Yeah, what Debbie actually did that morning.

44:02 So she is a home daycare worker and she had six other kids that

44:07 she was looking after. And she had a minivan.

44:08 Yeah. So she used to drop a lot of the

44:10 kids to school in the morning. So what she decided to do was on

44:14 her way to doing the school drop off, she's like, I'm just gonna

44:16 drive past the PAL house and see if I can see anything untoward

44:19 because this was so unusual. Yeah, She drove there.

44:23 She said it was virgin snow. There was no tire tracks coming

44:27 out of the garage. There were no footprints on the

44:29 front yard. It was fresh virgin snow.

44:32 She pulled her minivan up, went up to the front door and knocked

44:35 on the front door. And there was no answer.

44:37 But she could see the curtains flapping in, the breeze flapping

44:41 from the inside. And she's like, oh, So her

44:44 immediate concern was actually that they were all lying in

44:50 their dead from carbon monoxide poisoning.

44:52 Because with heaters on. With heaters on and.

44:55 You know, given the Blizzard conditions, in fact, you could

44:57 see the curtains kind of indicating.

44:59 Maybe she was like, what the hell is?

45:01 Actually going on here. Yeah.

45:03 So she's then contacted Josh's, Josh's mum and then Josh's mum's

45:06 like, all right, we need to call 911.

45:08 Yes, And get somebody out there. But Josh's mum and sister

45:12 actually arrived before the police did.

45:14 I mean, it was. It was fairly.

45:16 Yeah, fairly close proximity. Yeah.

45:18 When then the uniformed officers arrived at the PAL house, so

45:23 Jennifer and Terry, Terry Car, Yeah, Terry Car were already

45:27 there. Yeah.

45:28 And they decided because there was absolutely due concern that

45:32 because, again, they could see these curtains flapping, there

45:35 was due concern to break into the house because there was no

45:38 response. They couldn't get them on their

45:40 phones. No one knew.

45:41 They hadn't said that they were going away.

45:42 They hadn't said anything was going on, so the police officers

45:45 actually broke a window and gained that gained access to the

45:49 house with their permission. Yeah, with the permission of.

45:51 Jennifer and Terraca, and when they walked inside, nothing was

45:57 untoward. Now, the only.

45:59 Well, yeah. So when I say that, I mean, no,

46:03 the heater wasn't the there was nothing out of place.

46:07 So it's not like there'd been a domestic violence incident

46:10 there. That was obvious.

46:10 There were no broken dishes, No. No one home?

46:13 No. One home, there was nobody.

46:15 There were no bodies on the ground.

46:16 There was nothing like that. Yeah.

46:18 There was something a little bit unusual, though, but it explains

46:22 the flapping of the curtains. They found two big box fans

46:26 pointed at their couch and an area of their living room with

46:31 that was carpeted. And it was very, very obvious

46:34 that the couch had been cleaned recently cleaned.

46:37 And was still. Damp or wet?

46:39 Yeah. The other thing they.

46:40 Found too was Susan Powell's bag, her handbag with her purse

46:45 and things in it in her room, untouched, so it was just placed

46:51 where it would normally, I guess, look to be placed for the

46:54 night. Yeah, you know, yeah.

46:55 Yeah, end of the day, yeah. So.

46:57 It all was very like, well, hang on a second, where are they?

47:00 What's going on? So at this point the lead

47:02 detective is it arrives on scene at this point, Alice Maxwell.

47:05 So he's lovely, lovely guy. So such a lovely guy.

47:09 He was actually, he immediately something just didn't sit right

47:12 for him with this whole situation.

47:14 He was actually pursed that they'd entered the house because

47:18 it was a potential crime scene. So he was kind of like he kicked

47:22 everyone else, everyone out of the house at that point.

47:24 So there was no more. But the other thing was that you

47:26 don't have a warrant to be in there either.

47:28 So, you know, anything they do find is, you know, they can't

47:30 use. So he kicked everyone out and

47:33 they kept trying to sort of work out what he did do was he took

47:35 photos of things around the house at that point.

47:37 He did do that so that but he didn't touch anything so and

47:40 exited. Leave that leave that alone.

47:42 But at this point also then about round about 3:00, finally

47:46 Giovanna or gets hold of Josh on the phone through her son's.

47:50 Phone. Yeah, so weirdly.

47:52 Enough from her phone. Yeah.

47:53 He didn't answer. And.

47:55 Which Alice Maxwell, he says. So he goes, I was trying to get

47:59 hold of him. I was ringing constantly, no

48:00 answer. So was everyone.

48:01 Everyone's trying this guy as Erica was.

48:03 Finally, he answers the phone randomly at 3:00 PM and he

48:06 answers now, and this is he. He answers the phone and

48:11 Giovanna just says to him, Josh, where are you?

48:14 What's going on? Like Susan's not here.

48:16 She didn't show up for work today.

48:18 And he's like, oh, I'm on my way home.

48:20 Like, no, he goes. No, she's at.

48:21 Work. Oh, she's at work.

48:22 I'm on my way. Home.

48:23 Oh, she would have made it. She would have gone to work.

48:24 Yeah. And so he'd sort of, she goes,

48:27 you've got to come home immediately and he's like, oh,

48:30 OK, well, whatever. And he hangs up from her.

48:33 So then Maxwell actually gets him on the phone, then asked

48:36 straight away after that and rings him again and goes, mate,

48:39 this is this isn't OK. Susan's not at work, she hasn't

48:43 turned up for work. You need to come home

48:44 immediately. His response to that is, oh, I

48:47 need to feed the boys, but oh, OK, what the fuck?

48:50 And then? In the recording of it.

48:52 Have you heard the recording of this?

48:54 It's so interesting because then he, like, literally completely

48:57 ignores Maxwell. Yeah.

48:59 And he's like, boys, do you want pizza or burgers or where do you

49:03 want us to go? Yeah.

49:04 And he. And and Maxwell's like, you have

49:07 to come home immediately. Yeah, there's your wife.

49:10 Is missing. Yeah, we.

49:11 Don't. Know where Susan is?

49:13 Do you know where Susan is? She's at work.

49:15 No, no, we've established that she's not at work.

49:17 Yeah. So you've been.

49:18 Clearly. Told that, but he doesn't.

49:20 Even give an affirmative that he's coming home and he's like,

49:23 Josh, you need to come home. And he's like, yeah, yeah, yeah,

49:25 no. Was it like over an hour later?

49:27 An hour and a half later? So what he does first?

49:28 Though he hangs up for that phone call from Maxwell, turns

49:32 around in his vehicle and you can they can spot all this.

49:35 He's so he's driving north, however, stops the vehicle,

49:38 turns around, drives for 20 minutes in the opposite

49:40 direction, heads South for 20 minutes stops, calls Susan's

49:46 phone which is in the vehicle with him and leaves a voicemail

49:51 message. Hey, hope you're all good.

49:55 Hope you got to work OK and we're just on our way back so

49:58 I'll see you soon want Anyway, left that voicemail message and

50:04 got back on the road again. Again.

50:06 So he then goes and heads to he did go and get the kids food and

50:09 stuff. He did all those things.

50:10 He wasn't in any rush. Just in case you're wondering

50:13 whatsoever. Yep, no.

50:15 So on his way through though, where does he go?

50:17 He goes to her work, goes to Susan's work, drives, parks out

50:21 the front there, calls again to the phone that is sitting in the

50:24 vehicle with him and leaves yet another voicemail message saying

50:28 hi. I'm just letting you know I'm

50:29 out the front, you know, waiting for you.

50:32 He's been told that she didn't go to work today by multiple

50:35 people at this point, and her phone is in the vehicle with

50:38 him. So I'm going to get really

50:39 angry. What a freaking weirdo thing to

50:41 do. So yeah, he finally leaves there

50:44 and goes to the police station at that point, then, to which he

50:48 has a brief interview with the police.

50:50 I thought he went home. No.

50:52 So he goes here. So they go, he goes to the

50:54 police station and has a brief chat with them of like what

50:56 where things are AT. And so we're getting quite late

50:59 now by this stage. So he's like, so the police

51:01 officer says to him, Maxwell says, right, we've had a bit of

51:04 a chat consensus that this is weird.

51:07 And so he goes, sends him home to have a rest, have sleep

51:10 because take the boys, get them sleep, get them, get your mom,

51:13 obviously take over the kids, come back in the morning for a

51:16 full proper interview and we'll get more information.

51:18 He's like. Come back at 9 AM, 9:00 AM the

51:20 next morning. We'll have, but get some rest,

51:22 some slicks. It's actually getting quite late

51:24 at this point. Yeah.

51:25 So that was sort of the plan of attack at that point.

51:27 But in none of this is he well, where's my wife?

51:30 Like I didn't wouldn't you be out searching?

51:32 Wouldn't you be like, I mean, bringing everyone, you know,

51:34 going have you seen Susan? Like there's none of that.

51:36 And this is all you know, you can see these these videos of

51:39 these interviews and things with him.

51:41 He is sitting there like it's like whatever, because he also.

51:47 I was reading somebody's commentary about his demeanour

51:50 in these in these interviews. Yeah.

51:53 And it actually is very striking the way he behaves.

51:56 He behaves like somebody who there's no fucks to like there's

52:03 no respect for the situation that he's in.

52:06 So like he literally doesn't. He doesn't wait to be asked to

52:08 sit down. He doesn't wait to.

52:11 There's no formality in the way that he's behaving given the

52:14 situation that he's in. He just like slouches in his

52:18 chair. He's like, there's no, there's

52:22 no respect for this situation that he's in or the fact that

52:25 penetrated at. All what's going on?

52:28 No, the only information he did give to the police officers at

52:31 that stage was that fact that oh, I took the boys camping for

52:34 the night. We left at about 2/30, 1:00 in

52:36 the morning to go camping in a fucking Blizzard and we left my

52:41 wife at home. He wanted.

52:43 To test out his new generator. Yeah, that's what he said with.

52:47 Young children, these are the boys were like 2 and four at

52:49 this stage. So he took them out into a

52:52 Blizzard. But you know, that was a

52:54 warnings had been no. The Blizzard had already

52:56 started. Yeah, yeah.

52:57 He so this time in the night it was full go.

53:01 His kids would have been asleep at what?

53:03 I mean, maybe they weren't because apparently there was no

53:05 like he didn't actually in control, like, you know, have

53:08 control over those things. But they've been asleep by 12:30

53:11 at night. Like he's got them out of bed

53:13 and decided to go camping for the night.

53:15 And the police officer? Interviewing him, says, which is

53:18 Maxwell is interviewing him. Unfortunately, the kids were

53:21 with him for this first fairly informal interview.

53:23 They didn't read him, as Miranda writes at for this interview.

53:26 So it was very informal. Yeah.

53:28 Because they were just trying to gather information at this

53:30 point, figure out where Susan is.

53:32 Yeah. And so in in that they're sort

53:36 of talking to him about what did Susan say when you said you

53:40 wanted to take the kids out at 1:00 or 1:30 or whatever time it

53:44 was in the morning in the middle of a Blizzard?

53:46 Wasn't she concerned? And he's like, she didn't care

53:49 which is. From all accounts of everyone

53:51 else, not true. That would not have been the

53:53 case. No, she would not have been okay

53:55 with that. So for the fact.

53:56 That they weren't acquitted to deal with that kind of weather.

53:59 As you were saying before, they, the boys didn't even have proper

54:02 coats. They didn't have proper snow

54:06 tents or anything like that. I don't even know what you need,

54:09 but you know. What you need?

54:10 No, but all I know is. They they weren't well equipped

54:13 to be spending a night in the snow.

54:15 No, especially Can you imagine driving somewhere 2:00 in the

54:18 morning with your kids and then having to set up camp?

54:20 Yeah. From all accounts, in order to

54:22 set up what he says he set up that night, it would have taken

54:26 him until about 4:00 AM, Just set everything up.

54:29 Yeah. They then say that he says that

54:32 he got woken up by the sun the next morning, even though there

54:36 was no sun because there was still a Blizzard.

54:37 And so there was like, I mean, obviously it became lighter, but

54:41 there was no sunrise that you could actually see.

54:43 No. But he says he woke up at about

54:45 7:00 AM so he's had what, 3 hours of sleep?

54:50 The kids too. Like honestly, this is just,

54:53 it's insanity. What?

54:54 He's talking like it's really bullshit.

54:56 Like it's absolute bullshit now at.

55:00 This point also, they haven't, they haven't been able to get a

55:04 search warrant for the house because they just aren't getting

55:07 information. But also like, so they don't

55:09 have evidence to put one in for a judge like, because there's

55:12 nothing yet there, you know what I mean?

55:14 Like, so they do take his car into possession for do they?

55:20 So they do have that to look at. So I think at this point that

55:24 they do take that into their position to to have a look over

55:26 the car overnight. And he goes home now the next

55:30 morning he's meant to be at the police station at 9:00 AM.

55:32 Yeah. However, what does Josh do?

55:36 He meticulously cleans and tidies the entire house.

55:41 As I said to you, there was no search warrant that was executed

55:44 at that home, yet nothing had been other than what they'd

55:46 broken into that prior day to like, see that they had not

55:50 searched that property yet. They had seen it, but not

55:53 searched it. So he meticulously cleaned this

55:56 place, which he never, ever did. So the other thing.

55:59 To note is he had Jennifer and Terika there that morning and he

56:02 was directing them to clean things as well.

56:05 And Jennifer said to her mum, mum, I really don't think we

56:08 should be doing this. But her mum's like, just do it.

56:11 Just do what he's asking because, I mean, he had so much

56:14 control over her too, that this is that's well, you know, that's

56:17 just very. We will get there.

56:19 But then Jennifer ended up ringing Maxwell and saying, do

56:22 you think we should be cleaning this stuff up?

56:24 And he's like, no, yes. And he's like, no, no, you

56:27 shouldn't be. Yeah.

56:28 And then by that stage is when Maxwell was like, well, I've

56:33 been trying to call Josh all morning.

56:34 Yeah. He was meant to be here at 9:00

56:36 AM. It's midday by this stage.

56:37 Yeah. And he's not there and she's

56:40 like, well, I think then she's obviously gotten him to go to

56:43 the police station 4. Hours late?

56:45 Yep. To the to.

56:47 His 9:00 appointment at and at this point, again, I'm sorry,

56:51 why aren't you looking for your wife?

56:53 Like he's not worried about her at all.

56:55 There was no concern. He was more worried about

56:57 cleaning the house. Which giant red flag, surely?

57:00 I mean Oh my God. Circumstantial 100%.

57:05 So he goes in for a further chat with the police.

57:08 At this point, the and while this happens, the police do

57:12 secure the house. They've got his car.

57:15 And they said to him after chatting to him and having a

57:17 more interview, fairly interview, which he wasn't

57:19 forthcoming with much really at all, wasn't helpful, all those

57:23 sorts of things. Maxwell said to him, look, we

57:25 just need your car for probably another 15 minutes.

57:27 So if you want to just wait here, your car will be ready for

57:29 you to take. So he instead of doing that, he

57:33 just disappeared. Maxwell was like, you were meant

57:36 to be waiting for your car like it wasn't far away.

57:37 It was good that we're going to give it back to him.

57:40 He not only disappeared from that police station, he

57:43 disappeared for 20 hours. He went straight from the police

57:47 station to the airport, rented a car and then disappeared for 20

57:53 hours. And no one knows where he was

57:56 for those 20 hours. He turned off his mobile phone,

57:59 no. So there's no data collection

58:01 off his mobile phone with him in that time.

58:04 Interesting to note at this point his dad is also unable to

58:08 be tracked at that point for those exact same 20 hours

58:11 because his mobile phone is also turned off, which Oh my God.

58:17 So all they do know from this is from the data of the rental car

58:22 company is that his car travelled 800 miles in those

58:28 twenty hours. So this.

58:29 Is there was no like these days you rent a car, it's got AGPS

58:33 tracker on it. They didn't have that, no.

58:34 So it was just by odometer readings that they were able to

58:37 gather that he's travelled 800 miles in 20 hours.

58:42 Where did he go? Oh, I was just driving around.

58:47 Oh yeah. Where to so interestingly?

58:49 Enough the 800 miles that he could have driven is basically

58:53 meets up entirely in the middle of where his dad lives in

58:56 Washington and where he lives in West Valley in Utah. 800 miles

59:01 would have got him to there halfway and back again kind of

59:04 stuff. So that's just interesting to

59:06 note. So this is where so Steve

59:08 becomes a little bit more red flagged in that sense like that.

59:10 His phone was turned off at the same point as well.

59:12 They thought it's time maybe to have a chat with with Steven and

59:16 bring him in and have a little chat.

59:20 In this first interview that he does with police, it immediately

59:25 becomes concerning to the police because he doesn't take long for

59:30 Steve and to admit to being infatuated with Susan.

59:35 Now I'm not even. Talking like she's a lovely

59:39 girl. Girl.

59:40 She's what? A wonderful daughter.

59:42 No, no, no, no, no. Completely and utterly obsessed

59:48 with her and that. And he was completely and

59:51 actually convinced that Susan was in love with him, too.

59:55 Yeah. Delusional.

59:57 Delusional motherfucker. This is the one.

1:00:00 This is where we turn now. Completely bonkers.

1:00:05 It's fucking. Bonkers.

1:00:07 Now what a piece of shit. Let's introduce.

1:00:11 Steve fucking We're going to say things about Steve here where

1:00:17 where you would have thought if someone had written a murder

1:00:21 mystery nightmare, you know, thriller, killer movie and this

1:00:26 shit would have been in it and you'd been like 4.

1:00:28 That's a bit much. Yeah.

1:00:29 Oh. Parrot back a bit, yeah.

1:00:32 This is Steve, Steve. Is a sexual deviant from way

1:00:38 back, so according to his. Ex-wife Terrica in their divorce

1:00:44 paperwork, which is it was filed in 1992, she claimed that

1:00:50 pornography with his sons was shared and.

1:00:54 We're talking about like young teen, like not even preteen.

1:00:58 So Josh was 16 when they divorced.

1:01:02 So and she's talking way prior to even I did read.

1:01:05 Somewhere, although this wasn't corroborated and I didn't read

1:01:08 it anywhere else, but Josh was 9 when he first when.

1:01:11 He first saw. Porn.

1:01:12 With his dad. Oh God.

1:01:15 Their marriage was not good. And one of the biggest breaking

1:01:19 points of their marriage was, according to Terrico, was that

1:01:22 Steve brought in the idea of start having another wife

1:01:28 starting polygamy, which she was.

1:01:30 Absolutely. She was Mormon, but not that

1:01:32 Mormon. There's very two factions of

1:01:35 that of the Mormon short church, and that is you're into it or

1:01:37 not. Nope.

1:01:38 And there's a majority of them are not.

1:01:40 And so they do separate themselves entirely from that.

1:01:42 And she was definitely that down that road.

1:01:45 Yeah. But interestingly, clearly there

1:01:46 was affairs that took place in the marriage though, because at

1:01:51 one stage Steve gave her an STD, so she knows that he must have

1:01:57 been doing some things. He had some very interesting

1:02:01 ideas, whether they were within the church, were all realms or

1:02:06 not. As in that he didn't really

1:02:08 enforce limits on the children at all.

1:02:10 He didn't believe in the school system so couldn't have cared

1:02:12 less if they went to school. The kids were never given

1:02:14 boundaries. They were absolutely awful to

1:02:18 her. There was a particular story

1:02:21 where Josh pulled a knife on his mom, another one where she had

1:02:26 like said to him, oh, Josh, do you mind just doing the dishes?

1:02:30 And she and he just turned around her and told her to fuck

1:02:33 off. And you know, how dare she

1:02:34 requests that of him. The all the boys particularly

1:02:38 spoke to her atrociously like that.

1:02:41 There was allegations that Josh killed Jennifer's pet gerbils by

1:02:46 Jennifer as children. And again, none of that would

1:02:49 have been, you know, spoken about from from Steve's

1:02:52 perspective. So very interesting household in

1:02:57 dynamics. Yeah, absolutely.

1:02:59 So Steve had a. Hold over all the children other

1:03:02 than Jennifer, the eldest daughter Jennifer very much sort

1:03:05 of steered clear of things she stayed within like speaking

1:03:10 terms with her dad and her siblings but had very strong

1:03:15 views on that these things were not normal and that they

1:03:19 shouldn't have been occurring and she she did her best I think

1:03:21 to juggle both sides of her family what blows my.

1:03:25 Mind is the fact that Jennifer has or had any engagement with

1:03:29 her father whatsoever because he sexually assaulted her and I'm

1:03:35 not talking once or twice and I'm not even talking low level

1:03:40 anything. I am talking full blown sexual

1:03:44 assault, repeated sexual assault against her.

1:03:49 Whether her mom knew about it or not is unknown.

1:03:53 However, I just don't see how she couldn't have known.

1:03:59 But I also see how she was probably really powerless in

1:04:02 that situation. Because Steve had a hold over

1:04:05 that entire family and he dictated everything that went on

1:04:10 within that family, what was acceptable and what wasn't.

1:04:13 And his sexual depravity not only covered Jennifer and all of

1:04:19 the explicit things that he did to her and made her do, but the

1:04:24 fact that he then exposed his sons to some extremely violent

1:04:29 pornography and very what's the like, paedophilic pornography?

1:04:37 That's abuse towards those boys too, the fact that they were.

1:04:42 And in terms of any perpetration against Elena, it's not known.

1:04:46 No, we'll get she's. Yeah, she's not.

1:04:48 Come forward to say no much Let's.

1:04:51 Just say that I mean these situations generally as a form

1:04:56 of protection. People will side with their

1:05:01 abuser and it will look on the outside of, you know, that these

1:05:05 people are, you know, they are under his spell.

1:05:09 They do what he says, and because they know that that's

1:05:13 actually the safer thing to do. As awful as those things are

1:05:16 that you're being told to do or be a part of, they become your

1:05:20 normal, you know, because psychologically, the brain and

1:05:24 everyone in all parts of that person become, well, if I

1:05:27 didn't, I wouldn't want to be on the other side of that.

1:05:30 Yeah, that's right. Because they also saw the abuse

1:05:33 that Steve perpetrated against their mom and you know, the the

1:05:38 odd time that somebody would go up against him and it was just

1:05:41 not not worth living their life. So there was a definite.

1:05:44 Sort of attitude from the males in the household, like you know

1:05:47 that Steve or Steve instilled that in his his boys then of

1:05:49 like that women are dirt and only good for their bodies,

1:05:53 which is actually they're actually work.

1:05:54 Josh. 'S mouth.

1:05:55 You know they're there for the. Sexual gratification of men and

1:05:57 then Josh's attitude towards women in his college years shows

1:06:01 that shows that he just, he was a predator.

1:06:03 He was, he was made into a predator.

1:06:06 I mean, there's a lot going on for Josh.

1:06:08 Oh yeah, I totally. Get that?

1:06:10 But he's the influence of his father on on Josh and his brain

1:06:14 and the way that he was he operated was not a good

1:06:18 combination, awful at all. So Steve, so at this time, we're

1:06:23 now talking about the time when Susan and Josh, they're married,

1:06:26 they they've moved in with Steve to try and save some money so

1:06:30 that they could, first of all, get out of debt from Josh's

1:06:33 debt. He was in, I think when they got

1:06:34 married, he was in. Was it like $25,000 worth of

1:06:38 debt? And I'm talking with nothing to

1:06:40 show for it. Like he had a computer.

1:06:42 Yeah, like that's pretty much it.

1:06:44 So Susan was working so extremely hard and she did it.

1:06:48 They were able to, she was able to pay off Josh's debt.

1:06:51 So he not only saw Susan as a sexual plaything, he also, well,

1:06:57 he didn't though, because he didn't like.

1:06:58 Her he didn't like touching people or then touching her, but

1:07:01 but he still felt. He still felt possessive over

1:07:04 her. Possessive.

1:07:04 Absolutely controlling over her, but actually didn't become it

1:07:08 wasn't a sexual gratification thing for him.

1:07:10 No, in that sense, because he yeah, he weirdly went very much

1:07:14 the opposite direction of that. He didn't like any affection

1:07:17 whatsoever. And you can see him like in

1:07:19 videos where she, Susan, is quite an affectionate person and

1:07:23 naturally can see that in her personality.

1:07:24 Yeah. And she's like leans over Josh

1:07:26 and like, hugs him or whatever in any way you would see a

1:07:30 couple do that particular young couple and in love.

1:07:33 And you can see him almost like withdraw and like it's just like

1:07:36 you're like, it's really unusual.

1:07:39 It's shocked me that she didn't feel that in him of that pull

1:07:43 away. I don't know, I reckon she would

1:07:45 have she. Must have.

1:07:46 And she probably. Thought, look, maybe if I'm more

1:07:48 like, maybe yeah. That's true, yeah.

1:07:51 I mean. She wasn't a she was a smart

1:07:53 girl. Yeah, she was a really smart

1:07:55 woman. Even in in videos with him

1:07:58 engaging with his children, he I could you can tell he's

1:08:01 uncomfortable. Yeah, it's not.

1:08:02 Normal children, yeah, but then you look at.

1:08:06 The things he was exposed to and you think, okay good.

1:08:09 So anyway that Susan and Josh are living with Steve at this

1:08:12 point and Steve again keeps fucking video Diaries and audio

1:08:17 things and Oh my God oh they are disgusted.

1:08:20 Absolutely gross. He he look.

1:08:22 Literally would like he would take once you get in the shower,

1:08:26 he'd go and get her clothes that she'd laid out, whatever, you

1:08:28 know, come out to get dressed afterwards.

1:08:30 He would go in and video record, lay her clothes out and put like

1:08:34 the underwear underneath the clothing as if like she was

1:08:36 laying there. And and then he'd like pull back

1:08:39 the clothing and things and oh, look at it, it's just beautiful.

1:08:42 And oh, it's so. It's so gross.

1:08:44 It is beyond repulsive and this is his daughter-in-law.

1:08:49 He. Susan even wrote in one of her

1:08:51 journals that she thought that she could see a mirror that came

1:08:54 under the bathroom door while she was having a shower.

1:08:58 One day off for sure. So now no, like we'll, we'll get

1:09:01 to that in a second. The other thing that creeps me

1:09:03 out about just sorry, just really quickly with Steve and

1:09:06 Susan, there's again an account by Steve.

1:09:12 So this is in his own words. He says he went to put his arm

1:09:17 around her and his hand brushed like so by putting his arm

1:09:22 around her, over her shoulder, his hand brushed the top of her

1:09:26 breast. And he said that was the most

1:09:30 sexually exhilarating moment of his life to that point.

1:09:38 He's just revolting, absolutely revolting.

1:09:42 There's a video of him like she bought a new dress and he really

1:09:46 loved this dress on her and thought it looked beautiful.

1:09:48 So he followed her to work. And there's a video of her

1:09:52 walking out of work towards her car.

1:09:55 And as she gets into the car as the, the dress, the skirt of her

1:09:59 dress kind of as it does as you move into a car and sit your,

1:10:03 your skirt comes up a little, right?

1:10:05 And this little slip underneath her skirt and the slip kind of

1:10:08 shows. And on the video you can hear

1:10:10 him narrating this and that, you know, she did that for me.

1:10:13 Oh that this is the. Thing even when he talks about

1:10:16 putting his arm around her, he's like, she moved up so that I I

1:10:19 could feel that. Yeah, you know she fucking

1:10:21 didn't. You fucking creep.

1:10:23 Can you imagine? I don't know just that in that

1:10:28 situation, she is her the daughter-in-law.

1:10:31 She's got her husband, her new fairly new husband here and his

1:10:35 father had children before kids. She's she's playing this game of

1:10:39 like, you can't go to your how do you go to your husband and

1:10:43 say your dad's a fucking creep. I hate him.

1:10:45 I can't stand him. He's disgusting.

1:10:47 She's trying to play a game here, like this man's putting a

1:10:49 roof over her head so we can move out and, you know, save

1:10:52 money. She's 19 without knowledge of,

1:10:54 you know, of how to manage the situation.

1:10:56 How do you navigate that? I think she did a brilliant job,

1:10:59 to be really honest, of trying to navigate like keeping

1:11:02 everyone safe and OK. Like she didn't, she would not

1:11:06 have felt she was being abused. Like it was an emotional abuse

1:11:08 in that sense, yes, of putting her in that position.

1:11:11 She was the voyeurism that was going on.

1:11:13 You know that she was unaware of that.

1:11:15 That's another form of abuse. Absolutely.

1:11:17 The the fact this whole situation was an absolute shit

1:11:20 show for her that she had, she was either gonna ruin her

1:11:22 marriage, you know, potentially be sexually abused by this

1:11:25 bloke, you know, physically already being emotionally

1:11:28 sexually abused by him and psychologically, let alone

1:11:31 physically that occurring, which she was.

1:11:33 I I 100% know that would have been on her mind of like, what

1:11:36 the fuck? Like it's going to happen here.

1:11:38 Absolutely. To manage that.

1:11:40 Dynamic would have been so challenging and I think she did

1:11:45 as best as she freaking ever could have to manage that

1:11:48 situation because ultimately he comes to her and this is caught

1:11:51 on camcorder that he sat her down in her in his car.

1:11:56 Yeah, he picked her up. From work this particular day,

1:11:58 yeah, and he expressed. His love for her and she I

1:12:05 listening to it. Oh, she does such a good job of

1:12:09 like not going. No, no, I'm not into that.

1:12:12 She does it because she's she knows she needs to keep the

1:12:14 situation calm. And so people, some people,

1:12:18 mainly mainly Alina, believe this is her saying that she did

1:12:21 love him because you didn't say she didn't.

1:12:25 We'll get to that. She really carefully treads to

1:12:29 say, you know that she doesn't reciprocate that because she's

1:12:32 married to Josh and I just want to stay in the position of being

1:12:35 your daughter-in-law. He actually in that conversation

1:12:39 kind of alludes to, Oh, Josh and I could just share you.

1:12:42 Yep, how fucking also basically says.

1:12:46 Like it this is he almost blames her because and he says like you

1:12:52 do these things and they really turn me on and you know, they

1:12:55 do. And you know they do.

1:12:57 And she's she goes, Oh, you're, you're actually that that's not

1:13:01 I don't know that like that's not I'm sorry if I if she's.

1:13:04 She's like, it's so victim here. She's, you know, I'm sorry.

1:13:07 You've Yeah, I'm sorry. I've done that for you.

1:13:10 You know, I've done that to you. Like she takes all this blame on

1:13:12 and like, she's. I'm so sorry.

1:13:14 Yeah. Like she, she does not need to

1:13:17 apologize for anything. She did not.

1:13:19 So awful. But that's literally that middle

1:13:22 being that being abused that she's like, I'm apologizing to

1:13:25 you for that. That's my fault.

1:13:27 You know, I'm sorry I did that. I didn't mean to and I'm so

1:13:29 sorry. Oh, it just breaks my heart.

1:13:31 But it's it's awful to listen to and hit the way he speaks to her

1:13:35 of like this disgusting. He just draws.

1:13:37 He literally draws over her. It's disgusting.

1:13:41 And as I say, he's the father-in-law.

1:13:43 He's he wants to share her with his son.

1:13:45 That is just disgusting. Then you think about.

1:13:48 They've been sharing, as in Josh and and Steve have been sharing

1:13:52 sexual experiences by engaging in pornography from such a young

1:13:57 age. To him, it was probably nothing.

1:13:58 No, it's, it's sickening. And.

1:14:04 How much do you feel for this poor little poor little poor

1:14:07 young 1920 year old woman I think at this point.

1:14:10 Yeah, it's just awful. Absolutely horrific.

1:14:13 So somehow. I don't know how she did this.

1:14:15 She made somehow managed to express all this to Josh and

1:14:20 they moved out. So that's this is when they

1:14:22 moved to West Valley, UT. So they did move and then

1:14:26 considerable further distance away from him, which, you know,

1:14:28 I congratulate her on managing that situation to get herself

1:14:32 away from from Steve. And obviously at no point did

1:14:36 she say to Josh, I think, you know, cut your father off

1:14:39 entirely. I think she managed that very

1:14:41 well of like, you know, we just need to have some distance, you

1:14:44 know. However, John and Josh did

1:14:46 speak. Stop speaking to him for some

1:14:48 time. So there must have been

1:14:50 something. We don't really know what, but

1:14:51 something's going on in that situation.

1:14:53 But as they've moved away slowly, the the phone calls

1:14:57 start. Yeah.

1:14:58 And according to Jennifer, she witnessed quite a bit of this,

1:15:01 that with every phone call that he did make to Steve or Steve to

1:15:04 him after that would be an argument with between him and

1:15:07 Susan. So she clearly was like, very

1:15:09 much like, what the fuck? Why are you building this

1:15:11 relationship back with him? Yeah.

1:15:12 He, he, we need to keep the distance.

1:15:14 And so I do think she was, you know, don't cut him off.

1:15:17 But don't, you know, I don't know.

1:15:18 We don't. We're not engaging with him,

1:15:19 like with him. This is not right.

1:15:21 He's got some issues, like massively.

1:15:23 And she wasn't even aware of all of what was going on, as we say,

1:15:26 like the voyeurism. And there's more to that.

1:15:28 We'll get to. Yeah, Yeah.

1:15:31 So she's at this point wanting to kick distance.

1:15:34 But Josh was very much being caught back in again and being

1:15:36 pulled back in by Steve. And the phone calls were getting

1:15:38 longer and longer and more regular, which was upsetting

1:15:41 Susan. And absolutely.

1:15:43 Fair enough. Absolutely.

1:15:45 And So what were those conversations they were having

1:15:47 together? Because Steve still very much

1:15:49 even like this is now we're talking years of the maybe of

1:15:52 being moved out of his place. And then this interview he had

1:15:56 with these police officers was convinced Susan was in love with

1:16:00 him and he was in love with her. Wait, this is like five years

1:16:05 after the moving out of that house and that conversation

1:16:06 occurring. But she made it clear I'm your

1:16:09 daughter-in-law. That's where this ends.

1:16:13 Like, you don't walk away from that after five years going, Oh,

1:16:15 yeah, this is that's not going to go anywhere, Steve.

1:16:20 Steve said in one of his journals that when they moved

1:16:24 away, he thought, OK, that's it, Susan's dead to me.

1:16:29 I've, I'm not engaging with her anymore because she's rejected

1:16:32 me, because how dare she reject him, for fuck's sake.

1:16:35 There was nothing that had fucking.

1:16:36 There shouldn't have been anything that'd reject you,

1:16:38 dipshit. But then I think it was Alina

1:16:43 said to him. No, Dad, you're actually right.

1:16:46 Like, I think she really does love you.

1:16:48 And the reason she's moved away is because she can't help

1:16:51 herself being around you. I know that.

1:16:55 Oh, Lena's got problems. I mean, I feel.

1:16:58 For her, I have embassy, she's she's.

1:16:59 A victim, but oh. My God, at some point she has to

1:17:02 get it. And get it, but she doesn't.

1:17:05 No. So So what what we're saying

1:17:08 here is like this situation was my God volatile at best.

1:17:13 It was just horrific for almost everyone involved.

1:17:18 So at this point. Like we're all looking at this

1:17:20 going like, well, clearly we know that Susan's missing, Josh

1:17:25 have returned. Yep, Steve's a fucking weirdo.

1:17:28 Surely someone will be arrested here of some point.

1:17:32 Even on circumstantial evidence, there's a fair bit here to kind

1:17:35 of maybe pull someone in. Maybe the police didn't like

1:17:39 they couldn't. There was a number of reasons

1:17:42 for that. They had recently had another

1:17:45 case of Elizabeth Smart in the in the Utah area.

1:17:48 Gonna have to cover. We'll cover that on another day

1:17:50 someday. But so that was an interesting

1:17:52 case. But what happened there

1:17:53 basically was that they believed that she had been kidnapped and

1:17:57 was killed, but there was no body.

1:17:58 And they did try to prosecute family members on it.

1:18:03 She turned up alive. So they would trigger trigger

1:18:07 shy in terms of really arresting someone and following through on

1:18:10 something without a body because they had really it was like it

1:18:14 was fresh in their. Memory that very fresh.

1:18:17 That that didn't go well and that the public, you know, were

1:18:19 not OK with the situation that had gone on.

1:18:21 They jumped to conclusions. I guess where there wasn't any

1:18:24 hard evidence, that's it. They.

1:18:25 Were. Gun shy, they didn't know really

1:18:28 how to take take it in light of of that experience that the

1:18:32 police force had recently encountered for sure, Susan.

1:18:39 So the police were trying to think of different theories that

1:18:41 might have come to the fore and reasons that she might have, I

1:18:46 don't know, gone somewhere because Josh, Josh said.

1:18:49 What were his excuses for her that why?

1:18:52 So there might have gone a few that he put.

1:18:54 Forward that because was a guy went missing about two weeks or

1:18:57 something after she did so he made a decision.

1:19:00 He made this random connection and went, oh, she's had an

1:19:04 affair. She's having affair with that

1:19:05 guy who also disappeared. And the two of them have run off

1:19:07 together and it's like, well, hang on a second.

1:19:10 There's no evidence of them to ever meeting.

1:19:12 They lived at like opposite ends of the state, for one thing.

1:19:15 Like there was no connection of these two whatsoever.

1:19:17 But he decided, Oh yeah, yeah, she's.

1:19:19 And they, he very much came and he was like, they've gone to.

1:19:21 Miami or something? Yeah, like.

1:19:23 Yeah, where did you even get? That from like so.

1:19:25 It's just he. I mean, obviously he was just

1:19:27 trying to like, yeah. And clutch at straws.

1:19:29 Well, you. Yeah, we.

1:19:30 Would think that this would be a bloke could be like out on the

1:19:31 search is looking for her and all those sorts of things.

1:19:34 No, he was not. Instead, him and his dad were

1:19:37 going on media and spouting all this stuff and really, you know,

1:19:41 saying awful things about Susan of putting out there that, you

1:19:44 know, that she's left her kids, you know, to run off with a man

1:19:47 and all these sorts of things. So and they really and they they

1:19:50 Steve love talking about the fact that Stephen that she was

1:19:52 in love with him and he told that on, you know, national

1:19:55 television as well. So he.

1:19:59 He. Was they were really making her

1:20:01 out as if she was a sexual person who had?

1:20:05 You know, was really exposing herself to him and that it was

1:20:07 all her that put that on him. Really awful, really awful

1:20:11 things to this poor woman who had no way to defend herself

1:20:13 because where was she? We don't know.

1:20:16 We still don't know. No.

1:20:18 So at this point, they were basically going, yeah, there's

1:20:22 the police were very frustrated because they felt like it was a

1:20:24 fairly clear this, that she's, I mean, it was pretty.

1:20:27 Evident to them, even though there was no hard evidence.

1:20:29 No, it's all. Circumstantial, they had no

1:20:31 actual physical evidence. So they're like, we need to get

1:20:33 something. And the one thing they kept

1:20:35 referring to was her journals. She had these journals that Josh

1:20:39 would speak about in these interviews and things that could

1:20:42 clear them. They apparently in these

1:20:44 journals, she accused Chuck, her father, of abusing her and that

1:20:48 she was a troubled child and had all these issues.

1:20:51 And so that I think the journals basically, according to them,

1:20:54 was going to clear everything that they had nothing to it

1:20:55 because Josh had been named a person of interest, but

1:20:58 obviously just not arrested or anything.

1:21:00 So the cops are very frustrated kind of going with these

1:21:02 journals. We're going to handle these

1:21:03 journals. But they couldn't get a warrant

1:21:05 to get into the house because they couldn't prove they even

1:21:07 had these journals. So what they do was the cops set

1:21:10 up this honking wave. So Chuck and and Steve had a

1:21:16 fairly volatile relationship at this point too, because

1:21:18 obviously they're bad mouthing their daughter, who he's

1:21:20 vehemently trying to find and very, very sure that Josh had

1:21:23 something to do with that. So what they did was they

1:21:25 basically baited him. Chuck that sorry, not Chuck was

1:21:30 sent out to bait Steven. So they'll do a honking wave,

1:21:33 which was what basically the idea was to keep Susan's name

1:21:36 out in the public and people looking, you know, that you put

1:21:38 up signs and stuff, you know, as people drive past, honk your

1:21:41 horn, you know, to, you know, and wave and that to, you know,

1:21:44 recognize it and Susan Powell's name and all those sorts of

1:21:46 things. So if you support us, honk your

1:21:48 horn on your car as you drive past.

1:21:50 So they set this up, though, on a particular corner where they

1:21:54 knew that Steve would come every Saturday.

1:21:56 He went to a bank, they went on a corner where you'd have to

1:21:58 come past and he would see this. And of course Steve can't walk

1:22:02 past an opportunity to have his, his voice heard.

1:22:05 So he got fell into this entirely, went over, had an

1:22:10 argument with Chuck around, you know, like that.

1:22:13 Susan's not missing. She's off front, off with a

1:22:15 bloke, you know, and all these things and they're arguing.

1:22:18 But the whole idea was to get him to mention these journals

1:22:21 and try and get some evidence of them having a possession, having

1:22:24 them in their possession, so that they could then execute a

1:22:27 warrant. So as you.

1:22:29 Know I love the video of this like full video of the two and

1:22:31 have this argument and I love it cause Chuck is the most adorable

1:22:34 man he's lovely he's. So nice and you can see him

1:22:38 just. Kind of like he Steve's there

1:22:40 mouthing off, being the Dick that he is and he's saying all

1:22:44 this stuff and he's literally walked straight into this trap

1:22:47 and you can see Chuck kind of going like, well, we've got what

1:22:49 we came for like and can we stop this now?

1:22:51 I don't really want to talk to him like it's can I get away

1:22:53 from this piece of shit? And so, yeah, because what he

1:22:56 says in that is that the words that he used were those journals

1:23:00 were completed when she was 20 years of age when she was Josh's

1:23:04 wife. So they are Josh's property.

1:23:08 Bang. Gotcha.

1:23:09 Yeah, motherfucker the cops Bray would then get their their

1:23:13 warrant to then search his house.

1:23:15 So at this stage Josh and his boys house we're living with

1:23:19 Steve at this point. So they had moved right away

1:23:22 from where Susan had gone missing from to Washington and

1:23:25 the. Support of, like, all of the

1:23:28 people who actually gave a shit about Susan.

1:23:30 She had friends. Jennifer lived there.

1:23:33 Yeah. And Terika and and Susan and

1:23:37 Jennifer were very, very good friends.

1:23:39 Yeah. Sisters in law.

1:23:41 Jennifer didn't like Josh. No, she loved Susan.

1:23:43 Yeah. And she?

1:23:44 Protected a bit, she was, I think she was very much, you

1:23:46 know, in her corner for sure. Well, still to this day is.

1:23:51 Yes, yeah. So this allows the police then

1:23:53 to get into Steve's house. But it with in their mind still

1:23:56 is to search for things like they want these journals

1:23:59 particularly they are going in there and with Chuck, he's

1:24:02 desperately wanting to think that they're walking away from

1:24:04 this with an arrest of Josh. At the end of the.

1:24:09 Day of searching that house, he gets a phone call from Alice

1:24:13 Maxwell, who says we have made an arrest of Stephen Powell,

1:24:20 which Chuck is somewhat disappointed with.

1:24:22 However, like, well, why? What's going on?

1:24:26 Maybe we have some action here. Unfortunately, it's on.

1:24:29 Something completely unrelated. It's something, well, not.

1:24:31 Completely unrelated. Unrelated.

1:24:33 No, you're right. Not completely on something

1:24:34 unrelated to Susan's disappearance.

1:24:36 The shit they. Found in that house is just

1:24:40 disgusting. First list of things that were

1:24:43 found that were revolting. There was his book after book

1:24:48 after book journal, documenting every element of his life in

1:24:52 journals, the camera recordings, videotape after videotape, video

1:24:57 tape, thousands of thousands and thousands of hours, everything

1:25:00 that had all narrated by him and everything.

1:25:03 And so there was also photographs.

1:25:05 Photographs of Susan, photograph of other women, photograph of

1:25:09 children in houses nearby, literally like girls.

1:25:14 From SO, he looked at his back. Yeah, at his back.

1:25:17 Window into their bathroom and photograph like I'm talking

1:25:21 young, under the age of 10. Young girls, yeah.

1:25:26 So there was all of that. Then there was also, there was

1:25:29 also photos of Susan and him being superimposed into those

1:25:34 photos. Like gross, but even grosser.

1:25:37 Again, they were plastic zip lock bags named with Susan's

1:25:44 name on them. Dated some with cotton balls of,

1:25:51 you know, taking off her nail Polish.

1:25:54 Others again named and dated with her fingernail and toenail

1:25:58 clippings in them. Others named and dated with her

1:26:05 tampon applicators. I could not be more repulsed by

1:26:11 this absolute psychopath. I mean that.

1:26:14 That is psychopathic. That is so fucked up, Yeah.

1:26:21 Now these were. Things that he had kept for

1:26:24 literally, in some cases it was like nearly 10 years.

1:26:27 Yep. It was.

1:26:29 It's unfathomable there was. Boxes and boxes and boxes of

1:26:36 this stuff that they took out of that house and someone had to

1:26:40 like sit through those videos and like, you can find them and

1:26:44 watch some of these and they are, he's the creepiest guy.

1:26:48 I, I mean, we've done a lot of these and there's a lot more to

1:26:51 come that I don't know that we will ever come across another

1:26:53 one of him. I hope we don't.

1:26:55 I hope not. He, he is.

1:26:57 Beyond he is a. Vile piece of shit, I'm

1:27:02 actually. Going to go with a sack of shit.

1:27:04 It's not just one piece. True.

1:27:07 Oh, he's just beyond gross. The worst.

1:27:09 He is the worst. Oh, there were 5000 photos of

1:27:13 Susan and the so the videos of the other women meant that.

1:27:16 So there was voyeurism in that. And so they could contact these

1:27:19 women, they could have conversations with them and find

1:27:22 out did you know these videos existed of you?

1:27:24 No, no. Therefore prosecute the guy, you

1:27:27 know, like so. And it's exactly.

1:27:29 And obviously with the children next door, they were able to get

1:27:32 to there as well where they would take them to court on

1:27:34 that. Now, because Susan is not

1:27:36 around, though, they can't prove that she didn't know those

1:27:40 videos were being taken of her. When you watch them, it's very

1:27:42 clear that she was unaware, but you can't prove it.

1:27:45 Even the photos. Yeah, you know, she's not being

1:27:48 photographed up. It's only where she does.

1:27:50 Know and she interacts with him, but there's there's certainly

1:27:52 ones that where she's not absolutely.

1:27:54 Yeah, absolutely. Even in some of the photos

1:27:57 you're like, OK, he's like literally cropped her out of a

1:28:02 photo that's obviously being taken from a distance.

1:28:04 So, you know, and like touching her hair or whatever.

1:28:09 It's just so far it's. So, so creepy.

1:28:12 So at this stage. Because so Steve's arrested for

1:28:14 these things and because a lot of it, it does involve children

1:28:17 as well. Thankfully at this point, the

1:28:19 kids are actually taken into custody and to protective

1:28:22 custody because they're living, living under that same roof.

1:28:24 So they cannot live there with with Steve.

1:28:26 So they're taken under protective custody at this point

1:28:30 when they literally the police officer walks over to Josh at

1:28:32 the house in this moment and says to him, look, we're going

1:28:35 to take the kids into protective custody.

1:28:37 This is hit. The kids can't live here.

1:28:39 According to this police officer, Josh did not hug his

1:28:42 children goodbye. Nothing.

1:28:44 He had no had no emotion whatsoever to that information.

1:28:49 So I was just, I'd be like, like.

1:28:52 Fuck, you're taking my kids away.

1:28:54 Oh, I mean if you take. My dad away.

1:28:55 Take him away. Oh my God, that's gross.

1:28:57 I don't wanna know about that. That's I mean, that's awful.

1:28:59 But my kids all look after them. Did you find any content?

1:29:01 Related to my children in there, is there something more I need

1:29:04 to be looking into? Like but no SO.

1:29:07 We can get in a little bit here to the children.

1:29:09 So obviously Charlie and Brayden were very young when Susan

1:29:13 disappeared, but there were there were psychologists were

1:29:18 interviewed, the children and things and carefully had

1:29:20 conversations with them. So Charlie particularly so he

1:29:25 was the older of the two boys and he in one interview with a

1:29:30 police officer psychologist, she asked him, you know, about his

1:29:35 mum and do you talk about mum at home?

1:29:37 And his answer to that was, we don't talk about Susan or

1:29:42 camping. I keep all the secrets.

1:29:46 Oh, this? Poor little boy now not.

1:29:48 Only the two parts of that that kill me.

1:29:51 The first one is that he calls her Susan.

1:29:55 That is awful. The fact that that's how she is

1:30:00 being referenced around those boys and they've obviously been.

1:30:03 Told not to call her mom. Well, I don't even know.

1:30:05 If it's been told not to, but they're conditioned not to as in

1:30:08 I think because to me, like because she's not there the the

1:30:12 all the conversations about mom aren't you know, your mom loves

1:30:14 you very much. You know, no matter where she

1:30:16 is, she loves you and it's not being called mom.

1:30:18 She's not being called mom. It's conversations between

1:30:20 adults. Susan, Susan left you.

1:30:22 Susan does that. Susan did this, Susan this.

1:30:24 So it's not she's not being referenced as mom and the care,

1:30:29 the caring person who she was is being removed from their

1:30:32 memories. Then it's disgusting.

1:30:34 Oh God, so the police. Did so along with this

1:30:38 psychologist. When they interviewed Charlie,

1:30:41 he confirmed that the camping trip in the middle of the night

1:30:45 took play with Joshua took place.

1:30:47 However, he also stated that Susan went with them but didn't

1:30:51 come home with them. A few weeks after Susan

1:30:56 disappeared, a teacher, his teacher, who's she's interviewed

1:31:02 a lot, actually, I think she quite likes the spotlight.

1:31:05 But she said. That he has said to her that he

1:31:08 knows his mom is dead and the when Brayden was interviewed.

1:31:15 Now given Brayden's two years younger, I think he was barely

1:31:18 three at this point, not quite three.

1:31:21 He drew a picture of a van with three people in it and told the

1:31:25 psychologist who was with him Mummy was in the trunk.

1:31:30 Now. When they forensically

1:31:32 investigated the van they they didn't really find a lot.

1:31:37 It had been cleaned and there is CCTV footage of Josh cleaning

1:31:43 the van on the way home from the camping trip.

1:31:48 They also found when they were doing a forensic investigation

1:31:51 of the house. Now mind you it's worth we

1:31:55 already know this, that the couch had been cleaned.

1:31:57 Now, Josh had also, a week or two before this board, a Rug

1:32:00 Doctor. Who the fuck buys a Rug Doctor?

1:32:04 You go and buy one from the supermarket if you really need

1:32:06 one. Yeah.

1:32:07 Anyway, he'd bought 1 because, you know, he bought anything he

1:32:10 wanted whenever he wanted it. Yeah, and he had used the Rug

1:32:14 Doctor to. Well, According to him, he asked

1:32:18 Susan the night before she disappeared to at 10:00 PM

1:32:22 before she went to bed. Could you just clean the couch?

1:32:24 Because it was really grotty with the kids boogers.

1:32:26 I didn't mean the woman that. Was was sick and well and had to

1:32:30 go to bed. Really.

1:32:31 Yeah, sure. Yeah, she.

1:32:33 She decided to clean it at 10:00 that night.

1:32:36 Yeah. And that's why it was wet.

1:32:37 And so Josh had to set up the fans to make sure it didn't grow

1:32:40 mildew. The other thing we.

1:32:43 Might just go back a little bit on before we move to this next

1:32:46 stage. Sure.

1:32:46 Is that the his brother Michael? Oh yes.

1:32:50 So Elena and Michael obviously in Washington and she's

1:32:53 disappeared in Utah. They were, they did visit when

1:32:57 this first happened a couple of times they did visit.

1:33:00 But on the second trip, they made across to to Utah.

1:33:03 On the way back from there, Michael's car mysteriously

1:33:06 breaks down. Now they've sort of midway

1:33:09 between Washington and and Utah at this point.

1:33:13 So, and when I say breakdown, like, yeah, it's fixable, I

1:33:16 guess. I don't know.

1:33:17 We don't really know. According to Michael, his car

1:33:19 broke down. So he could have had that car

1:33:22 then towed somewhere locally, but instead he chose to tow it.

1:33:27 So far away. To a particular place where that

1:33:32 car needed to be destroyed. It was in so his words were at

1:33:37 the time was that you know Oh no, it was completely done.

1:33:39 It was you know unfixable. It needs to get get destroyed.

1:33:43 Not just like gone to The Wreckers pay someone to pick it

1:33:46 up and take it off to a wreckers like kind of thing like picked

1:33:48 apart parts used for various things.

1:33:50 No, no, destroyed. Why?

1:33:54 Why? So the cops did get wind of this

1:33:57 and so they went out because what happened?

1:33:59 He actually contacted a company to do a drone photo over the top

1:34:06 of this wreckers what to check that it had been destroyed yet

1:34:12 really weird. So the cops got hold of this

1:34:15 information and went we need to go out to this place and find

1:34:19 out what's going on here. So they go out there and they

1:34:22 took with them cadaver dogs who could spell obviously

1:34:27 decomposing bodies, and they let them loose in this entire

1:34:32 massive yard and we're talking. Like a massive wreck yard.

1:34:36 Like a massive wreck yard literally within.

1:34:39 Minutes they went directly straight over to Michael's car

1:34:43 and alerted. So the police then test this and

1:34:48 they did find, yes, evidence of DNA in the carpet of the boot, I

1:34:55 believe, or something. That's right.

1:34:57 It was in the boot, Yeah. Now unfortunately though, when

1:34:59 they looked at it close up, yes, there was definitely DNA there,

1:35:03 but not enough to get a match of matching that say to Susan say

1:35:09 there. I don't know how that works, but

1:35:10 no I think. It had been cleaned, I think

1:35:12 that was what it was. So the dogs alerted to obviously

1:35:16 a scent, which is OK, That's that's great.

1:35:19 Yeah. But when they went to then try

1:35:20 and get the evidence, they weren't able to gather enough

1:35:22 usable DNA because I believe they'd use bleach or something

1:35:25 that had degraded the DNA to the point.

1:35:27 Yeah, to a point where they. Couldn't actually get a full.

1:35:29 Profile, right, that's it, yeah. So another, another red flag if

1:35:35 nothing else, that just putting it out there potentially that

1:35:39 Michael was part of this knowledge of this too and maybe

1:35:43 moved the body or Steve. Used Michael's car for

1:35:47 something, maybe that's. Possible too, but this car

1:35:50 certainly wasn't an issue when. Josh drove this 800 miles in the

1:35:56 rental car for 20 hours and Steve disappeared for the same

1:35:58 20 hours. We don't know how Steve got to

1:36:01 wherever. He got two others.

1:36:03 So I'm like, has he, have they transported Susan's body?

1:36:08 We don't know. We actually don't know.

1:36:10 But that's what that's the actual, that's fact of what has.

1:36:13 Occurred. So real odd, real strange.

1:36:17 So just putting that in there, as well as information that

1:36:19 occurred prior. Yeah.

1:36:22 So we're back here where we've got Steve arrested.

1:36:25 Susan's still missing. Josh has had the boys removed

1:36:28 from him at this point, and so they go to court on this.

1:36:33 Now at this point, thankfully, the the the courts do place them

1:36:39 in the custody of The Cox Family.

1:36:43 So with Judy and Chuck Susan's parents.

1:36:46 However, the courts decide that Josh is a which I use formal

1:36:51 terms of what our legal system here will use.

1:36:53 Good enough. I use inverted commas.

1:36:56 He's a good enough parent. And because he attends to the

1:37:00 children, he feeds them, he shows up on time, you know,

1:37:05 genuine bare minimums that he's a good enough parent to have

1:37:10 visitation with his kids at this point while they sort out who is

1:37:14 what and all this evidence they've gathered on his dad and

1:37:17 whether he's part of this, whatever, they've got to

1:37:19 ascertain all these things. So.

1:37:22 And simple fact of the matter is, he's a prime suspect in a

1:37:24 disappearance of his wife. Yeah.

1:37:27 Anyway, I think the court. Then decided to impose that the

1:37:30 visitations needed to be supervised, yes, so the

1:37:33 visitation. Had to be supervised.

1:37:34 Now, the supervisions did occur originally in a facility, yeah,

1:37:39 which is what they are meant to happen if they're supervised.

1:37:42 However, they were the parent. The other people who were

1:37:47 visiting children in this facility didn't like Josh being

1:37:51 there. He this was a really well known

1:37:53 yes situation in the area and people were commenting and

1:37:56 saying I don't want him around my children.

1:37:58 Like because of the situation of like who his dad was and what

1:38:00 that was going on with, that he shouldn't be here.

1:38:03 He shouldn't be around children in full stop.

1:38:05 Shock horror that really like general people, people who also

1:38:08 have to have visitation of their children, acknowledge that this

1:38:11 dude shouldn't have visitation with his children.

1:38:13 That says a lot to me. Yeah, I'll get really, really,

1:38:16 really pissed about this shit. So it was taking place in the

1:38:20 facility, but at a point they went, well, this isn't working.

1:38:23 Other people don't want him here, so they moved it from

1:38:25 there to being elsewhere. But we'll come back to that.

1:38:29 So obviously, this is all playing out in terms of Steve

1:38:32 and what's been found in his house.

1:38:34 And in that situation, what was found was on a computer that

1:38:37 belonged to Josh was animated child pornography.

1:38:43 Now, animated child pornography is a grey area a little bit

1:38:46 legally in terms of what that means because real children

1:38:51 aren't involved. Where does it land in terms of

1:38:54 legally what you, what you should or shouldn't have of that

1:38:56 in your possession? Ethically fucked, yes.

1:38:58 Legally grey, yeah. So a psychology they do.

1:39:03 The courts basically decide that small psychological assessments

1:39:06 need to be done. And a psychologist, he, when he

1:39:09 got wind of this, he was doing assessments already on Josh.

1:39:12 And at this point when he got wind of that fact that this

1:39:14 information was on a computer that he owned, he said that's a

1:39:18 deal breaker for him in terms of the kids.

1:39:20 So what he wanted then was a full psychosexual analysis and

1:39:23 evaluation of Josh, which includes A polygraph.

1:39:28 And in that polygraph he can be asked anything.

1:39:32 So that. Meant that he what was on the

1:39:34 table now is that he could be hooked up to a polygraph and

1:39:36 asked direct questions about Susan's disappearance.

1:39:41 Now turns out the porn that was on his computer actually wasn't

1:39:49 his that pornography had been put on.

1:39:52 So that computer had been purchased actually by Susan what

1:39:55 like a long time ago second hand and it was provable that porn

1:40:00 had actually been put on that computer.

1:40:02 Before he even owned it. So it was way, way deep, deep

1:40:05 down in there. However, computers work.

1:40:06 I don't know, but that was actually proven that it wasn't

1:40:09 his. However, it was enough for them

1:40:12 to say we need more information about this at the time of like

1:40:15 Nah. So the kids are obviously in

1:40:20 temporary custody with Judy and Chuck and they're having

1:40:24 supervised visitations with with Josh until this assessment is

1:40:28 done. And he is now under the the pump

1:40:32 because this polygraph I think really gave him a gave him a

1:40:36 real spun it's worth. Noting as well, the supervision

1:40:40 of these visitations was done with their social worker.

1:40:42 So it's not like it was Judy doing the supervision or Chuck

1:40:45 doing the supervision. It was with a a court appointed

1:40:48 social worker. Yeah.

1:40:50 And. And with all this going on in

1:40:52 terms of like the visitations meant to be happening at a

1:40:55 facility, but then changing to being at Josh's house with it,

1:40:58 but still supervised. Chuck was actually jumping up

1:41:02 and down in the background saying, I am seeing signs here

1:41:06 of similar things that Susan was raising around Josh's

1:41:10 personality and what was going on for him prior to her

1:41:13 disappearance. He actually said that to police

1:41:15 officers, social workers, courts.

1:41:18 He was he went to everyone. He was concerned.

1:41:21 Very, very, very, very, very concerned.

1:41:23 He literally could not have done anymore.

1:41:25 I really want to say that I feel he he was.

1:41:28 So explicit in what he said as well.

1:41:31 Yeah. It's like Josh's behaviours are

1:41:33 escalating. I am very concerned that Josh is

1:41:35 going to hurt the children. Mm Hmm.

1:41:38 I am very concerned that Josh is going to hurt himself.

1:41:41 Yeah, not that. I mean, you know, at the end of

1:41:43 the day, who cares if he hurts himself?

1:41:45 But he was saying something's going to happen.

1:41:48 Like, yeah, we're getting somewhere.

1:41:50 This. Is this isn't OK?

1:41:51 This isn't OK the. Fact of what's been.

1:41:53 Put on him of like you might not get your kids back if this

1:41:56 sexual analysis comes back with stuff.

1:41:59 If this polygraph comes back with stuff you may lose your

1:42:02 children. Could be a trigger of some sort.

1:42:05 I don't feel like it was. The children not.

1:42:08 I don't feel like it was losing the children that was his

1:42:10 motivation here. I feel like it was more that he

1:42:13 was going to be fully exposed. Fully exposed.

1:42:16 Yeah. So we're here.

1:42:19 We're here. I've I've been avoiding it, if

1:42:20 you noticed. Yeah, OK.

1:42:22 So much so this is. Super Bowl Sunday, February 5th,

1:42:27 2012. Josh wakes up, he goes to the

1:42:31 bank, gets out some money, goes and buys gasoline.

1:42:39 He's then got a visit with his boys in his home.

1:42:43 Now at this point he had moved, had actually moved out obviously

1:42:45 so they can have these visitations as we're not at

1:42:47 Steve's house. He had rented a property just

1:42:49 down the road from his dad's house.

1:42:51 Fucking get away from that. Get the fuck away.

1:42:53 From him, so he. Rented this house just down the

1:42:56 road from Steve's place so he had his own place there and in

1:43:00 this house he had like a toy room for the kids.

1:43:03 Set up a bunch of their toys and everything.

1:43:05 Not a lot of furniture. Not a lot of homey stuff, no.

1:43:08 You know, I guess it was a new rental.

1:43:10 He didn't have a lot of things to fill it.

1:43:13 In the days prior to this, he'd actually gone to a hardware

1:43:18 store and he'd bought an Acetylene torch.

1:43:22 When he went to this hardware store to buy the, the torch, he,

1:43:27 the hardware store staff commented on how weird he was

1:43:34 and so much so that they were like, oh mate, what do you, what

1:43:36 do you need in Acetylene torch for?

1:43:38 And he's like, oh, you know, I just want to see how it works

1:43:42 and, and oh, you know, I've never used one before.

1:43:45 So I just thought I'd, I'd give it a go.

1:43:48 He bought all of the connections, the tanks,

1:43:50 everything that you need. And then he, I mean, this just

1:43:54 goes to show his hubris as well, because he went to this shop at

1:43:58 say closed at 5, right? He went there at 4:50, spent 45

1:44:04 minutes harassing the staff about let's make sure they.

1:44:07 Remember you? Yeah.

1:44:08 You know what? I'm like an idiot.

1:44:09 Like he's just. That's what I'm saying.

1:44:11 The hubris is just so he ends up buying this torch.

1:44:15 Eventually he gets home and he tries to connect it all

1:44:18 together, like you need special lines or something to connect

1:44:22 the tank to the torch part and he hadn't bought the right

1:44:26 connectors. And because this shops now shut,

1:44:29 he goes to Lowe's like the local hardware store which was open

1:44:34 till say 6 or whatever time. And they're like, you've

1:44:37 actually bought the wrong tank, has the wrong connections.

1:44:41 So he's then pissed off because he then has to go and buy these

1:44:46 new tanks and have them then filled with the Acetylene and

1:44:49 all of that sort of stuff. So he's gone to a lot of trouble

1:44:52 to have these this Acetylene torch in good working order,

1:44:56 Continue. Oh God.

1:44:59 So the social worker who was a 65 year old woman, she was

1:45:07 instructed to pick the boys up from Judy and Chuck's house and

1:45:11 drive them over to Josh's. So they're driving over and she

1:45:15 said that the boys were very happy and very keen to see their

1:45:17 dad, which was lovely. So she said they got out of the

1:45:20 car, she parked the car at the front, got out of the car and

1:45:23 walked down the driveway and got to the front door.

1:45:26 You know, the boys are very excited and very jittery and

1:45:28 these, these boys were very boisterous boys, very active

1:45:30 boys. So and Josh has come to the door

1:45:34 and immediately said to the boys, I've got something really

1:45:37 special for you. I've got a surprise for you and

1:45:38 let the boys in through the door and they've run in.

1:45:40 Oh my God, Dad's got a surprise for us, you know, and then he's

1:45:43 slammed the door in the social workers face and not let her in

1:45:47 the house. Now this is.

1:45:49 Against the court order, she had to be in full view of those

1:45:53 children at all times, Yeah. So he's in the house with the

1:45:58 two children and she's stuck outside.

1:46:00 She's banging on the door trying to get access.

1:46:03 He's it's locked. She's not able to get in that

1:46:04 house, so rightly so she rings 911 now.

1:46:09 This 911 call absolutely kills me.

1:46:11 Oh, same. Oh my God.

1:46:14 I do hope that that 911 dispatcher is not in that job

1:46:17 anymore. Oh, they couldn't be.

1:46:18 Couldn't be. So she look, she she's a bit

1:46:22 frustrating too, because she doesn't know the address and she

1:46:24 gets a bit like she's, she's flustered, very flustered, but

1:46:28 she's panicking, yeah. And social worker is panicking.

1:46:31 Yes. And so in this 911 call, she

1:46:33 says, you know that this is the situation.

1:46:35 I'm, I'm meant to be here supervising his visit, his

1:46:37 visit, but he's shut the door and I'm stuck outside.

1:46:41 This fucking 911 caller is like, who's there to visit?

1:46:44 But who's there to supervise if you're having the visit?

1:46:47 It's like, fuck me. Fucking listen.

1:46:49 Listen, this gets really like she's like, she can't find the

1:46:54 address, you know, like, which I'm like, you just pulled up to

1:46:55 the address. Please just like get the number,

1:46:57 get the, get the straight address because he's like, I

1:46:59 can't, can't send anyone until you tell me where you are.

1:47:01 And she's like, well, can't you just, you know, track me, track

1:47:04 my phone. And he's like, no, it doesn't

1:47:05 work like that. Like it's like, Oh my God, just

1:47:08 freaking start sending people like because then she says I can

1:47:11 smell gasoline. And I've just heard one of the

1:47:14 boys scream by this stage. She has gone to her car because

1:47:20 she had to get the the. Address and stuff, right?

1:47:21 She's like it was her notebook and.

1:47:22 Everything was in the car, plus she could smell gas.

1:47:25 For fuck's sake, She actually I. Think she even says I need to

1:47:27 move my car, I need to move away.

1:47:29 Move away, yeah. So the other one that ultimately

1:47:32 really this gets me when the dispatcher says to her, she

1:47:35 goes, so is someone on their way and he says, look, they'll be

1:47:39 there, but they need to attend to emergencies like life

1:47:42 threatening situations first. Oh my fucking I just can't.

1:47:49 I think I. Think in that 911 call, though,

1:47:51 she is absolutely conveying that she needs someone there now.

1:47:56 It's not like she's like, oh look, the kids have gone inside

1:47:59 and I just can't get in. She is panicked.

1:48:01 She's like, no, no, what you don't give a life for in the

1:48:04 situation. Exactly.

1:48:05 I am in fear. Of those children's lives,

1:48:07 something is Josh Powell. She keeps saying to him and and

1:48:10 she knows. That name and.

1:48:11 He has no way. How do you who that is?

1:48:12 No, he's like, sorry, so. How do you spell that noise?

1:48:14 This guy is flashed over the news.

1:48:16 He is known at this area. This is a known story of what's

1:48:19 going on and breaking stuff. But as we were talking about the

1:48:21 mushroom lady, like, you know, Aaron Patterson, everyone knows

1:48:24 that name. It's like that kind of level of,

1:48:25 you know, notoriety of this case.

1:48:27 And she's like, it's Josh Powell.

1:48:29 He's, you know, they think that he killed his wife.

1:48:31 Like she's saying all this on the phone and he is just not

1:48:36 reacting. Oh, I'll be there.

1:48:37 So he does eventually fucking dispatch people and they do get

1:48:41 there. However, already the house is a

1:48:44 lot and fire is coming out of the house.

1:48:47 Now we're. Talking an initial explosion so

1:48:53 it was enough to alert neighbors and enough to really like people

1:48:58 were making these 911 phone calls as soon as they heard the

1:49:01 noise because it would have been extraordinary.

1:49:04 So we're talking a gas explosion, basically.

1:49:08 And can you even imagine? So the social worker's name was

1:49:12 Elizabeth. Can you even imagine how she

1:49:14 must have felt in that moment? I can't I.

1:49:17 Can't. Oh no.

1:49:19 So in that day, Josh had first of all, in that morning, he'd

1:49:23 sent emails out to people. He'd actually called Elena and

1:49:28 left a voicemail message on her phone.

1:49:29 And again, you can hear that that message.

1:49:32 I still, I don't, I don't feel any compassion for him

1:49:35 whatsoever. But in that voicemail message, I

1:49:38 find his tone even still not genuine, even though what he did

1:49:44 like it was he was absolutely going to do what he was saying.

1:49:47 I just still don't find anything he says genuine.

1:49:51 So the way he speaks in that voicemail message is that, you

1:49:53 know, I've just, he'll actually say the words I'm going to kill

1:49:55 myself or anything like that. He just says I can't do this.

1:49:58 I, I, he doesn't admit to anything.

1:50:01 It doesn't even bring up Susan, her name.

1:50:03 It's not even like, you know, he goes, I'm sorry for what I've

1:50:05 done, but he doesn't say for hurting Susan or any of that.

1:50:09 Her name is never mentioned. He just says I can't live

1:50:12 without my boys now. So he's basically inferring he

1:50:15 knows that he's going to lose the boys if he goes through with

1:50:18 this evaluation and polygraph. Well, why would you lose your

1:50:22 boys if you go through with that?

1:50:24 What? What's going to come out?

1:50:25 What are you? Afraid of?

1:50:26 What are you afraid of, actually?

1:50:27 Coming out of that, because I don't think it's actually losing

1:50:30 your boys. No, that's where I just don't

1:50:32 find any genuine. It's absolutely not.

1:50:35 So he doesn't confess, obviously doesn't even mention her.

1:50:38 But the fairly lengthy message he leaves around the fact of

1:50:40 like, I can't leave anymore. He sent emails off to a few

1:50:45 people as well, sort of saying that he was going to, you know,

1:50:47 that he was going to end his life.

1:50:48 But that's really it. This killed me.

1:50:53 Poor Chuck obviously got the phone call from again, Alice

1:50:57 Marshall, Alice Maxwell who got in touch with him saying you

1:51:00 know, this is what's going on. And so Chuck when I want to go.

1:51:03 So he made sure. So this Alice was just such a

1:51:05 beautiful. He made sure that Chuck was

1:51:08 escorted with police to get there, which they knew was too

1:51:11 late. Like they knew that this was all

1:51:13 done and dusted, but he wanted to be there so they were going

1:51:15 to get him there. So they took him to go and see

1:51:18 he Chuck said he walked up to the house, which was still a

1:51:20 blaze and still trying to get this fire out.

1:51:23 And he said he just knew immediately there was no chance

1:51:26 those boys were coming home to him, which he just said like

1:51:31 that was just beyond. Oh, what?

1:51:35 You just, I mean, he'd already lost his daughter and his last

1:51:41 piece to her. That's right.

1:51:42 They were his last connection to her.

1:51:43 So Josh, in my mind, did this as a vindictive sort of last case

1:51:49 if he wasn't going to have. Those boys, no one was going to

1:51:52 have them. It's one about him wanting them

1:51:54 because that no one else have them.

1:51:55 That's right. That's.

1:51:56 Exactly what I was about to say, because he, I don't think he

1:52:00 gave a shit, would have given a shit whether he saw the boys

1:52:02 again or not, but he didn't want anyone else to have them either.

1:52:05 So he wanted to inflict the most, absolutely the most pain

1:52:11 on Susan's family, and he's absolutely done that because he

1:52:15 has now wiped out the two most precious things to her and the

1:52:20 two most precious things to Susan's family that they had and

1:52:24 the connection that they had still had to her.

1:52:27 These poor little innocent boys, they did nothing, No.

1:52:32 So that vile sack of shit, he didn't just put the house on

1:52:36 fire. So what happened when he closed

1:52:40 that door to that front door? Those boys ran giddily, happily

1:52:45 into their playroom, thinking Dad had to surprise them

1:52:48 something lovely for these toys. The only thing that they had in

1:52:52 the majority of the house was these toys for these boys ran in

1:52:55 there thinking they were getting surprised.

1:52:57 He attacked them with some sort of axe or pick.

1:53:02 Yeah, it was a. Yeah.

1:53:04 The Hatchet. Or something, they weren't sure

1:53:06 exactly. What the tool was, but there was

1:53:08 definitely, there was definitely injuries to the children that

1:53:13 inferred this, that there was this attack on them first before

1:53:17 they were they, they died and they were found on the floor in

1:53:21 the in the room holding hands. So.

1:53:27 But The thing is, that's not what caused their death.

1:53:30 So that the three. Of them, the cause of death for

1:53:32 the three of them was carbon monoxide poisoning.

1:53:35 It wasn't Even so he attacked them like for no reason.

1:53:40 I I just like carbon. Monoxide poisoning I think is

1:53:42 actually quite a peaceful way to go, so you pass out.

1:53:45 Before you know what's going on, what's happening, he could.

1:53:47 Have just done. That Yep, I mean none of it.

1:53:49 He should have none of it. I don't want to but but why the

1:53:53 violence have the? Constants.

1:53:54 Yep, I. Oh, I just can't with that.

1:53:58 That just absolutely kills me. You couldn't.

1:54:01 How do you do that to your own children?

1:54:03 You have no emotion? No soul to be able to do that.

1:54:08 No, not a human. Being not a human being, so the

1:54:11 only. Advocate that Josh has is Elena

1:54:16 she vehemently supports him as not being a monster to this day

1:54:21 which. I just whereas Jennifer his

1:54:24 other sister so as soon. As Susan went.

1:54:26 Missing. She knew it was Josh.

1:54:28 Yeah. Yeah, and she feels.

1:54:31 Guilty for the fact that he killed the boys because she said

1:54:36 I should have known that this is where it was going.

1:54:38 Yeah. It's not her fault.

1:54:42 No, this is only Josh's fault. Absolutely.

1:54:46 Yeah, so following this absolute, well, he's a family

1:54:52 annihilator. He's annihilated her family.

1:54:54 It's just awful. So after this though Steve does

1:54:58 go to trial for his so he ends up being like charged with I

1:55:02 think it was like 1 count of child pornography, one count of

1:55:06 voyeurism. Like it was just one counts of

1:55:08 things. I think he was actually

1:55:10 sentenced to like 10 years but he only ended up serving 05.

1:55:15 Yeah, somewhere around that. Yeah, he came out of jail after

1:55:18 those years and he went to like a halfway house ish kind of

1:55:21 place. I'm sorry he's served.

1:55:23 Nearly six years. Nearly six years.

1:55:25 So he. Was released on the. 11th of

1:55:27 July in 2017, yeah. So he would, not long after

1:55:32 being released, suffered a heart attack and died.

1:55:37 So that's all we really need to say about him.

1:55:39 Although the police were like pretty keen to have a chat with

1:55:41 him again to see if he could because obviously no longer they

1:55:43 could get information from Josh around what happened to Susan.

1:55:47 They were hoping that maybe at this point, knowing that Josh

1:55:49 was not around anymore, that maybe Steve would fess up as to

1:55:52 what went on, but they didn't get to him in time.

1:55:55 So they did hear that, oh, he's had a heart attack.

1:55:56 So they actually went to the hospital.

1:55:57 They directed themselves there to go and speak to him, but they

1:56:00 didn't get there in time before he passed away.

1:56:03 So unfortunately didn't get any deathbed, you know, confession

1:56:06 or anything, or anything out of him, which is a bit sad.

1:56:10 Again, following on after that in February 12th 2013, Michael

1:56:17 his Josh's brother committed suicide interestingly so he

1:56:23 jumped off a roof and plummeted to his death.

1:56:27 Unfortunately, there's video footage, CCTV footage of him

1:56:32 getting to an A lift on his own goes up to the top to the roof

1:56:37 and the next thing he's and people witnessed him coming off

1:56:40 the roof. Elena to this day believes he

1:56:43 was pushed. There's no one else up there,

1:56:49 which is interesting. So I mean, between all of that.

1:56:53 So the police have closed Susan's case.

1:56:57 They know they're not looking for other suspects with the the

1:57:01 information that they basically say that they believe Josh did

1:57:05 something Josh, Josh hurt her, she killed her.

1:57:10 And quite possibly either, if not both Michael and Steve moved

1:57:15 to her body. I've heard allegations of maybe

1:57:18 Josh handed her body over to Steve to do what he wanted to do

1:57:23 with that. I've read about that.

1:57:25 Too. That's an interesting.

1:57:27 I mean, look, look at how depraved he was.

1:57:30 I that makes me feel absolutely ill.

1:57:34 But you know what? I I can't discount that in my

1:57:37 mind, no. No, which is such a?

1:57:40 Fucked up thing to say. So Michael was quoted as saying

1:57:43 to police that even if I did know something, I wouldn't tell

1:57:46 you. So there was definitely some

1:57:48 evidence around that he potentially at least new stuff

1:57:52 if not was not didn't partake in things.

1:57:54 Also to note, just going coming up to Michael committing

1:57:58 suicide, there was a private detective and I don't know who

1:58:01 had employed this private detective.

1:58:03 It could have been interested citizens.

1:58:05 It's not Chuck. It's not The Cox Family.

1:58:07 But someone was paying a detective to surveil him.

1:58:12 And this person was apparently getting close to getting some

1:58:15 information. And that's potentially why he

1:58:19 was pushed to a point where he jumped off the roof.

1:58:23 Maybe. Maybe.

1:58:26 Yeah. So unfortunately we don't have

1:58:31 answers to a lot of this. But one thing I will just say in

1:58:38 Steve's journals, he wrote on Tuesday the 8th of December.

1:58:43 So the day after she disappeared, really like that.

1:58:46 You know, that following day at 5:35 AM he wrote this, he

1:58:49 documented to that extent. So this is body early in the

1:58:52 morning on that. This is the day that he that

1:58:55 within that 20 hours of them disappearing, right?

1:58:57 He wrote his journal that Josh would have disposed of her body

1:59:01 in some grotesque way. Maybe he took her and cremated

1:59:05 her in an industrial site. What the?

1:59:11 Fuck. He also believed that Josh It

1:59:16 wrote in the same journal that he was Josh was probably he

1:59:19 wanted to do it his way and avoid a messy and costly divorce

1:59:25 all Josh. Cared about and this came

1:59:28 through in all of his little fucking weird video journals was

1:59:31 money. Everything was about money.

1:59:35 Yeah, he even. Bragged.

1:59:37 In one of his police interviews, how there was some restaurant

1:59:41 near where they lived and he could feed the entire family for

1:59:44 4 bucks, 70 on a particular day where they had like and he was

1:59:47 able to use, you know, he was so clever.

1:59:50 He was so clever. He could feed his whole family

1:59:52 for $4.70. What a piece of shit.

1:59:54 You know he's. Such a.

1:59:56 Fucking piece of shit. He did not care about Susan.

1:59:59 He did not care about those beautiful little boys.

2:00:03 I think that in. Some way, I mean, I think

2:00:04 ultimately Steve is whether he had a hand in this or not, I do

2:00:10 think he's ultimately responsible because he he had

2:00:17 these children grow up in a world where they had no sense of

2:00:21 normality of like what compassion is or, you know,

2:00:24 exposing them to violent pornography.

2:00:27 Under the age of. Age.

2:00:29 That changes. That changes your brain.

2:00:31 Chemistry. That kind of.

2:00:32 It literally does, Yeah. So.

2:00:35 Yeah. And Josh, yes, there was a lot,

2:00:37 you know, I think he there was a lot undiagnosed in him as well.

2:00:41 But all of those things are things that people live with

2:00:45 each and every day and don't end up murdering their wife and

2:00:48 murdering their children. I, I can't even, I can't even

2:00:54 imagine how somebody would get to the point that he has.

2:00:58 I think you're right. I think there's definitely

2:01:02 childhood issues there. But at the end of the day, he

2:01:05 grew up into an adult and he made decisions that fucking

2:01:09 ruined so many lives. I think the way he killed his

2:01:14 children is I can't. It actually makes me feel

2:01:19 physically I'll to even I can't, I can't go there.

2:01:23 Because. It's so it's unfathomable that

2:01:28 somebody could inflict that kind of harm on their own children.

2:01:31 I can't even no how Susan died. I can't.

2:01:36 I don't even want to think about it.

2:01:38 Yeah. I mean I.

2:01:40 Can only hope to be honest that there was like a poison say in

2:01:45 that food and that she went in some way peacefully because I

2:01:49 mean it. Unfortunately, the cleanup that

2:01:51 occurred in that couch area infers maybe not so well.

2:01:57 That's right. Because they found blood very

2:01:59 tiny. Little, very tiny little of the

2:02:01 blood which were. Proven to be Susan, yeah.

2:02:03 That doesn't prove. That like she would.

2:02:05 Cut her finger in the kitchen. That's right.

2:02:07 Weeks earlier. Who knows?

2:02:08 You don't know, but yeah, you know all of these signs point.

2:02:12 To what was potentially violent and for her to but in.

2:02:15 All of this I always, I go back to Alina and think of like what

2:02:21 her life has been to get her to this point where she's so

2:02:26 misinformed around her own family.

2:02:29 Her her take on all of this is so morphed into something that,

2:02:36 like, to be the only person on his planet, basically, who

2:02:38 believes that her family are innocent and says something.

2:02:42 Yeah, but she's got to have experienced an awful lot of shit

2:02:46 in her life. Absolutely.

2:02:47 And I wonder whether, like, I think she had a real hatred for

2:02:50 Susan. And I do think, you know,

2:02:54 morbidly as it is, I think that she was jealous of Susan and the

2:02:58 attention her dad gave her. Yeah, I think you're right.

2:03:01 So I think that she has the trauma that she has experienced

2:03:05 is beyond what anyone should ever experience.

2:03:09 So I watch her. She is on some documentaries and

2:03:13 does vehemently have her, her opinion heard.

2:03:18 And that can I take that on, on face value, I'm like angry at

2:03:21 her, but under the surface it's like.

2:03:25 Experience you're the trauma. That has got you to that belief

2:03:30 is absolutely awful. I have nothing but compassion

2:03:34 and empathy for her. That I, I, I can only hope that

2:03:37 one day a psychologist spends a hell of a lot of time with her

2:03:40 and works with her and gets her to a place of, I don't know,

2:03:43 peace with all of this. I don't know.

2:03:45 I don't know if that's possible. I don't know.

2:03:46 I don't think it is, but. What a life to you.

2:03:49 Know that's exactly that's who your family is and she's put her

2:03:51 face out there and I mean not by her choice probably initially,

2:03:54 but you know it does now speak up for her family, you know and

2:03:57 wants to do that. So but that's how would have

2:04:00 life she's led to get to here with that.

2:04:03 The only positive out of any of this was that so Susan was

2:04:08 obviously buried where her family chose for her to be

2:04:11 buried. And when the boys passed away,

2:04:13 they were placed in a placed next to her in one in one plot.

2:04:20 And that left obviously a plot either side of Susan and her

2:04:24 boys that Josh was going to be buried in.

2:04:30 But thankfully, very quickly, the public and a lot of police

2:04:34 officers donated money and bought those two plots either

2:04:39 side of them to ensure that there was no way in hell he

2:04:42 would be buried next to them. And so congratulations and well

2:04:46 done to the public and those police officers who donated to

2:04:48 that, because that was a very worthy cause. 100 I would have.

2:04:52 Thrown money shit. Should not be anywhere near

2:04:54 those people. I'm so glad they did that.

2:04:57 Yeah. Yeah.

2:04:58 Oh, this? Has.

2:05:00 Been an awful one. Horrible.

2:05:03 If you want to know more detail about this case so one I would

2:05:06 really highly recommend people look at is the long form podcast

2:05:09 called. Agreed that.

2:05:10 Was. Why don't you you direct me to

2:05:13 that? Yeah, quite a few years ago now

2:05:14 and it hard to listen to it. You need to take your time.

2:05:18 It's a it's a long fall. I think there's.

2:05:20 Like maybe 16 or 17 episodes, something like that.

2:05:22 I mean, the core, the core content might be about 10

2:05:25 episodes. But it's definitely worth a

2:05:27 listen. Or you want to know more

2:05:28 information, And I'm talking really in depth information.

2:05:31 Yeah, it is hard to listen to, so maybe space it out a bit.

2:05:34 Yeah, the time to be able to do some episodes.

2:05:36 Where it gets real hard, yeah. But yeah, it's very well

2:05:40 produced and very respectful. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

2:05:43 We, we know that covering cases like this can be really, really

2:05:47 tough. So if this one's been a tough

2:05:49 one for you to listen to, please reach out for support, you know,

2:05:53 in Australia, reach out to Lifeline or Beyond Blue.

2:05:57 And if not, seek assistance in, in whatever country you're

2:06:01 listening from, because, I mean, I've found this one a really

2:06:05 tough one. You obviously have as well.

2:06:07 And the reason we do these cases is to a keep the memory alive of

2:06:13 those people who who suffered and the victims in this case.

2:06:19 But it's also to raise awareness.

2:06:21 And you know, there are people like this out there,

2:06:26 unfortunately, this family. Dynamic exists.

2:06:28 This is not. They're not.

2:06:29 They're not, unfortunately, the power family, unfortunately the

2:06:33 only family who function this way.

2:06:35 They exist, but not only that. Domestic violence is so

2:06:39 prevalent only in Australia, but worldwide.

2:06:41 One in three women across the across the world experience

2:06:44 domestic violence in some form of another.

2:06:46 We're not saying everyone's going to necessarily be murdered

2:06:49 by this. No, we can tell that.

2:06:50 But it's what she was. Experiencing prior to even being

2:06:52 murdered but was not OK no. And if you are experiencing any

2:06:56 of that control is it's not OK. So yeah, reach out 1800 respect

2:07:02 in Australia because we need to speak up.

2:07:05 I mean, her friends were trying and obviously she was making

2:07:07 attempts, but we need to get these people out safely and get

2:07:10 everyone the help they need. And if we get to a point where

2:07:15 that isn't needed, that we don't need to be looking out for

2:07:17 friends for these shit, that would be great too.

2:07:19 Yes, please. Yes, please, that world.

2:07:21 Would be lovely to live in. Yeah.

2:07:24 And finally. And finally.

2:07:26 All right, what case are we covering next week?

2:07:28 Oh, crap. Oh.

2:07:31 Charlie Murdoch Yeah, we're doing so we're.

2:07:33 Doing the Joanne lease and Peter Falconio case, yes.

2:07:37 So that's kind of taking a bit of a different tactic, which is

2:07:41 probably a good thing. No kids involved.

2:07:43 So yeah, please join us next week.

2:07:46 Thank you for listening. We really, really appreciate it.

2:07:49 Don't forget to like us on all the socials.

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2:08:01 We really appreciate it, absolutely.

2:08:03 Stay curious, crime besties. Bye.