Episode 51 - Susan Cox Powell

0:15 Here we are again for another episode of Two Crime Besties. Meg, how are? You. I've been better. I'm just yeah, I'm hoping my voice holds out today. I'm doing OK. I haven't had much voice since last time we recorded. Pretty much the next morning I woke up with like barely any voice. Severe case of laryngitis. Yeah, or drag queen Itis. Yeah, sometimes, as we call it. Yeah, it was pretty, pretty deep, pretty low. So yeah, we're we're working through that. So I apologise now and I'm hoping they'll edit out any coughing fits I have.

0:47 Yeah, luckily you're an editing aficionado. Oh, sometimes it's it's not easy at times. Yeah, you talk too much.

0:58 It's hard to find a break in a conversation. Yeah, yeah. It's not my fault. Not. It's never, it's never. No, no. I've had a busy week. We It was my eldest son's birthday this week so. Happy birthday Oh. He had a We had a family gathering on the weekend and Peter made a brisket. Oh, we've spoken about. Him and his brisket on the potty before. And true to form, there was brisket grease from one end of the kitchen to the other by the end. But it was delicious, so it was well worth the clean up. Oh, good.

1:31 And yeah, I was. Loves brisket. He loves brisket. Yeah. And because you can't really buy a small brisket. No, there's no. So we had leftovers for days. So by the end of it I was like, I cannot, I just do not want to eat anymore brisket for a bit now. So yeah, that was fun. And the rest of it I, I just feel like the chaos of this week has really gotten to me. Like adding in that extra thing of a birthday, which is fun and exciting and all those things. It's also exhausting. And it's mentally exhausted stuff like, and I got everything in place I want, you know, you want to make people special for them.

2:07 But there's elements of, you know, yeah, there's just extra things. Yeah. So that's. OK, it's all fun. It's all good fun. It is. We've had that and then I just, we're off the back of the King's Birthday long weekend, so we're obviously recording a couple of weeks in advance to this coming out. But my God, it was nice to have. Our kids ended up having four days off in a row because they had an extra day, yeah, off school, which was just lovely. Do you know what? My kids needed it. I needed it because I was sick.

2:36 Like, so. I mean, it was 4 days of and the weather was terrible, horrible, horrible. Which I was like, thank you, because then I don't feel guilty for not taking them out somewhere. Yeah, but they were more than happy. I thought, oh, they're gonna climb the walls. Didn't they were actually embraced just like, I mean, they, they've got this switch game they play of like NBA stuff. Oh, cool. And they spent the most of the weekend, which I mean, bad parenting, maybe, I don't know, but I was sick. Hello.

3:00 They were on the switch most of the weekend, creating their own team and stuff. And they banter between the two of them and they got along the entire time. I think I might have, might have broken up one argument like the for the four like 4 days. Oh, like this is winning. That is a win. Yeah. They were having a great time. That is awesome. Yeah, it was hilarious. They created like characters in their NBA game of like the dog, like has a player that that fucking Axolotl has a has a player fucking Axolotl.

3:26 But they made the players look like they they're at their pets. That's that's incredible. It was very cool. Very cool. Do you want to tell the people what you're doing this weekend re the Axolotl? Oh, well, OK, so again, 'cause I was sick, I didn't bet, didn't like push Brody over the weekend to clean the Axolotl tank. I was, like, I mentioned it a number of times, like by the end of the weekend, that needs to get done, you know, like, and 'cause I wasn't like, like, right, I'm here 'cause I mean, he does it.

3:54 But I support like, you know, make sure the water doesn't go everywhere. It does require, you know, some intervention. I had not supervision. Absolutely. That's minimum. Yeah. So I am there and directing around when I normally do it. So because I wasn't really up for that, I wasn't kind of going let's do this now, like let's get out. So by the end of the weekend I was like, look, partially my fault. I'll take one for the team next weekend. I will clean the tank while you're at your dad's. And because it needs to get, I can't last another another week after that needs to get done.

4:23 So I'll do it. Oh, my God. But it wasn't until later after me saying that that it's dawned on me that you clean that tank, the axle little has to exit that tank going on another bucket. And I have to get him out and get him, get him back in and see, Brody when he does that, he just he picks him up and cuddles him and kiss him like he has this little moment of like, you know, like they're because they can live out of water. Not for like a long time. Yeah. But he he loves doing it. He loves taking him out and having his little cuddle time with him and then putting him in the bucket while we clean the tank.

5:03 And then he has another final little kiss and cuddle and that and he puts him back in. That ain't happening. Oh. No, I don't even know how I'm going to get him in and out. Kyle, you are not going to be getting kisses and cuddles this weekend. Kyle will be happy. About that I would imagine so actually, Kyle's gonna find this this tank tank change a lot less stressful than. All will he, though, because I just don't know how I'm gonna manage to get him out and in without touching him. I don't want to touch.

5:30 Yeah, A. Scoop or a bucket or. Something no, I'm I'm serious. I just something nice and suggested using like the like I use a jug to get the water out. It's like just scoop him up in the jug and I'm like a good plan. But you're still gonna have to put your hand like, into the Oh, no. No. Am I? No. No, like into the tank, will you? Oh yeah, yeah, I'll have to put it in my hand into like, yeah, yeah. Like to get that. Oh, that'll I'll do it before a shower, like at least. Oh yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah. Then go in and scrub yourself down.

5:56 Oh, it's just. I can't believe what I've committed to here. I can't believe it either. It just never dawned on me the actual process of what I was clear because that step, Brody, that's the one step no matter what Brody does. Yeah. So it just didn't enter my head of like if all the other bits of it. I'm not, I'm OK with them. I've cleaned fish tanks and yeah, everything else over the years. No dramas. But yeah, yeah. Oh God, I'm an idiot. I shouldn't have got a buddy Axe a little for him. My own fault.

6:24 Yeah, you've only got yourself to blame for this one already. Will be happy when he comes home and he doesn't have to do that. Tank and yeah, sort it out. No mate, no mate, So what again? So if you don't clean the tank, does it just go all yuck? Oh, the water goes. Yuck. Yeah, it's a bit cloudy and stuff at the moment, like it's not looking great. I mean, he looks happy enough, but yeah, it's dirty and right, 'cause you need to 'cause you use a vacuum thing, clean up all the stones and yeah, why 'cause all the excess food bits and the poop I guess will get.

6:52 Down there, right? Yeah. Pebbles and it's not pleasant. No. Get a dog, get a fucking dog. We've. Gotta clean up dog poop. Do you know what that's at least that's a poop and scoop thing. Yeah. That situation, you know the the axolotl situation is. Serious, serious business. And at least with the dog, like we've trained Luna to just poo down one side of the house. This is it. So at least it's in one spot. It's easy. Yeah, that's Cruise. Yeah, unless it's raining, in which case she's like, if you think I'm gonna walk around the side.

7:24 Of the house to do my poof, I get that. You are sadly mistaken my friend. That's the one thing with Chris that I love, that like you go out with him for a walk and he will not shit. Oh my God Luna shits like 3 times on every. Walk and thank God 'cause I'm sorry, but he's a more than a handful. Oh yes, I'm not scooping that up with a hand and like a butt and a bag. I think like, that's not Oh my. God. Oh, that's great. I, I didn't even actually purposely train him that way. It just well, how he's a bit like Ollie.

7:52 He doesn't like to shit out shit outside the house. Needs his comfort zone in order to feel comfortable enough to yeah, relax those muscles. Oh, I love that for you, actually. Yeah, yeah, no idea. So good. Yeah, that would just. I have to take yeah, I when I take Luna for a walk, minimum 3 bags. Yeah, normally I take 4 just in case, but she she will at least do at least two, usually 3. Yeah, yeah. Oh God, that's awful. It is. It's freaking awful. I mean. It's not in your backyard then, but you kind of pick them up like.

8:23 Yeah, well, at least in your backyard you can pick them up whenever you want. Yeah, this is it. Like we've. Spent a lot of time on this podcast talking about poo. Oh, something else has been talking a lot about poo lately is the mushroom trial, which is going on at the moment, which probably by the time people actually listen over, probably over, and they have a verdict, which, yeah, fill us in, Yeah. We're on it. Are you listening to the daily podcast, the ABC one? Yeah, it's really good. I've been like following.

8:50 I did miss it for a few days there, and I've caught back up again now. Yeah. But like, Oh my God, I'm just. I'm here for it. Aw, same. Oh my God, It's so interesting. We were just saying about how like if if she hadn't have actually killed people, people hadn't have actually died. Yeah, it would be a really interesting case to talk like the kids who are interested in it would be like fascinated by it. Yeah. I mean, it's still, you know, adult content, I guess by the fact that, you know, death and all death.

9:19 Yeah, potential murder. Although I'm pretty sure. I'm pretty sure. I'm curious to see what what the verdict ends up. Intrigued because from an outsider listening and I think the ABC have done a very good job of like just putting their facts of what the yeah what has come across in the in the in the case that I think the jury I feel like the jury's going to go a particular way but same I'm intrigued to see what they come up with because it is it is a very interesting one that you've. They're trying to basically just prove intent yes that's all that this element is we with.

9:50 She admits there's death cat there was death cat mushrooms mushrooms in that dish but did she seek them out Did she put them in there intentionally to kill them these people. So I guess that's the it's a very hard thing to. It's hard to prove intent. And have they proved that enough? And I'm like and I, I, I feel like. Agreed. But whether Julian? Takes that for whatever reason, yeah. At the minute, what we're listening to is the bit around how, you know, she felt about herself and the surgery she was going to be having that wasn't quite the ovarian cancer sort of surgery that she said it was going to be.

10:28 That's kind of where we're up to it. Oh. No, she, well, like I said yesterday that she finished on the stand. Oh. See, I haven't listened to yesterday yet. Oh well, OK. She just lies Spanish she does and there and that to me is there's there's your intent. She's you wouldn't be lying. You wouldn't have gotten rid of that dehydrator exactly because she said like originally it was. She got rid of the hydrator a bit dehydrated because her ex-husband said to her, is that what you used to poison my? Parents with Yeah.

10:54 And he says he didn't say that. Yeah, now to me, regardless of whether he said that or not. Why is that in your head? Got what one said. So he's saying she's lying that he said that. Yeah, But to me, you got rid of the dehydrator, God, at that date, after the fact, for some reason. Yeah. Therefore, you're trying to hide evidence. Yeah. The. Phones the. Phone for somebody who said he was at least so intelligent, she's really done. Some dumb shit narcissism comes in and she thinks she's more intelligent than everyone.

11:22 Else actually, in fact, she's actually not not Yeah, it's a really interesting thing. Oh God. So for those of you who haven't caught up, Mushroom Daily, I think it's called. Yeah, really good, really, really worth it. You can easily catch up too because they're only like 20 minute episode. Yeah, they're pretty nice. Easily stick it on 1.5. Yeah, get get through it real quick. Yeah, yeah, no, it's very good. Oh, the other thing I'm gonna say to you too. I've watched Sirens. Tell me what you think.

11:47 I yes, I finished it. Yeah. Yeah. What did you think? It got a bit weird in the end. It did. And I. Still, actually I don't feel like I've got an answer. No, there's no answer. Although, yeah, there is no answer really. Although I think they lead you down a certain path, right? But then you can interpret that in whichever way you want. I went because, yeah, I got to the end and just went. Who's the siren? Yeah. Which one is it? Him. Yeah. Is it her? I think it's him. Yeah. So what? Should we not give it away?

12:19 I don't. I don't know what I Maybe we shouldn't say much more, but watch it and then let us know what you think. Watch it I. Really good watch, but it would just. Annoy me at the end of like going hey am I cut on what am I meant to make a decision? I think I think you're meant to make a decision I. Can't make decisions. I'm here for entertainment, people. Give it all to me, yeah. Spell it out, yes. The other exciting thing that's happened TV wise is Real Housewives of Atlanta. Oh, Atlanta, Not Atlanta.

12:47 OC. No, no, no, no, no with Larsa. I've just had it. Larsa, Larsa, Larsa. I think you're on one that I don't watch. Oh my God. Is that Atlanta? No, it's not Atlanta. It's. Miami. Miami, thank you. Oh my God. Oh, yeah. I don't watch. I don't watch Miami or Atlanta. I'm not up. I'm not up to them. I'm not. I haven't watched. Do I need to? Oh, you have to watch Miami? Oh my God. From the get go. Yeah, yeah. OK. Or at least start a season or two ago. OK. Yeah, so good. So. So good. Is it Salt Lake City?

13:26 Good? No. OK, because you know what I would have watched because I've released the first few episodes of Now What Next Gen. Seriously. So in it is Gia, as in like New Jersey, what's her face's daughter? There's Kim's called Salziak's daughter in. Oh my God. Brooks is in it from Salt Lake City, and then there's a So they're all the housewives he wants. But then there's other characters in there too from other oh, no, the other one from housewives is Riley so Kim Solziak. And what's her face? The singer Candy can't.

14:02 Oh God, that's gonna annoy me. OK, but yeah, another one from that. Anyway, from that they used. To oh, I'm gonna all the time get into. This So yeah, no, it's it's a whole new world. I can't. I just don't know. I don't know. I don't know how I'm gonna go with it. OK, 'cause they're they're they're different creatures. That's. It and they're so much younger than us I think the thing about the Real Housewives is like even though they're filthy rich and their lives and do not resemble ours, there's.

14:28 Maybe yours? They're at least like our age and like we, we get it. There's like, I kind of get where they're at in their life. Yeah, there's a level of I guess maybe hormones we understand. Yeah, maybe. But yeah, no, the money we may not, but yeah, yeah. So it's it's, yeah, you definitely relate to a lot of the topics. They talk about yeah. But no, the all the young ones like it's I'm. Gonna give it a go I'm gonna give it a go yeah, you never know there's. Only there's only been a couple of episodes released so far.

14:56 But then I, I can't get into those like, oh, you know, the, the ones where they're all like Love Island and all those. I'm just not in not into stuff at all. No, I think there's what is it? Someone recently saw me to watch people naughty day fiance or something and I'm like. I used to love. Well, I think I watched like. Say 30 minutes. Of one episode, I mean I. Can't. Ohh I used to love like I'm talking probably 10 years ago I was. On that show, yeah. No, I haven't. Watched that in forever. Yeah, and I couldn't get into it at all.

15:25 I was like, now it's not for me. Yeah, I I literally what? I didn't realise I checked out like. We're high brow. We're, we're, we're totally high brow. Oh well, that's why, yes. Just ask us housewives only. That's it. Shall we get into today's case? Oh, I think we are there. We're there. It's actually oh quickly. First, I've got some shout outs. Oh yes, let's do. That yeah. So we've had, again, we say this every week, loving the engagement peeps, keep it coming. We just love it. Love reading what you've got to say.

15:58 I love it when people comment on the the content and like actually engage on that level as well. We've had quite a lot of that lately. Anyway, shout outs today are to Cosy Stacey Petrie, Lisa B, Michelle B Jodes 1151. So thank you everybody. As we say, we try and get back to everyone. If we don't, please don't think we haven't read it because we have. It's just that we might be doing other things at the time and we don't quite have the time to. I do the terrible thing of like, I read it and go, yeah, yeah.

16:29 And I'll respond. I responded in my brain. Yeah. And then but I'm caught with something with like the kids interrupt or whatever, and I walk away and go, Oh my God, did I reply on that or not? I do. Show real life all the time. Like as in like to text messages and stuff. It's not personal. No, no, not at all. Not at all. Like so yeah, please know that it was a acknowledged. Absolutely. We acknowledge, Yeah, yeah, we will get and I often will go back like later and go, my God, I didn't write what I thought I wrote.

16:52 Yeah, or I didn't actually respond. Yeah, yeah. So today we are covering the case of Susan Cox's PAL. Yeah, this might not be one that everyone's as a fait with. I guess maybe some of the other ones we've done more recently, especially like the Australian true crime ones. Yeah, but yeah, it's a oh God, it's a biggie. And we probably need to do a few disclaimers and trigger warnings before we start because we will discuss suicide, we will discuss pornography and child related aspects of that. What else got a bit of everything?

17:26 Domestic abuse, yes. And. In all forms. That's right. It's actually really horrible case. Yeah. And yeah, one that if if you're not ready to listen to it this week, maybe give it a miss. Because it's a pretty, it's a heavy one. It is definitely a heavy one. And it's, yeah, there's a lot in this, but it's fascinating. It is. But yeah, if you're not in the space. Quite, quite a different vibe to the market, Stewart. Case, yeah, we've literally gone from 1 extreme literally to the other opposite end of that spectrum.

17:56 This is, it involves all those aspects of cases that we go that's hard. Every bit of like what you think might be bad is in this one, yeah. So Susan Marie Cox was born on the 16th of October in 1981 and look, she grew up in AI would say a fairly stereotypical family they grew up in. She grew up in Washington and she had a really loving mum and dad who and who just adored her. Yeah, they were lovely. Stereotypical family people have said that they were very warm and welcoming and they had a very strong faith-based to their families.

18:41 So they were Mormons. Mormons so belonged to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, and they really upheld a lot of those Mormon traditions and Mormon beliefs in terms of the way they were raising their family. But not to the point of that extremist style. That you might hear about polygamy or anything like that in this, in this family in me, Yeah. And they were just a really good, loving, caring family. Which was one of four, yes girls, can't remember what what number she was in that, but they all seemed very close.

19:16 Yeah. Yeah. So she met a man by the name of Joshua Powell. He was born on the 20th of January in 1976, so he was about five years older than her, but nothing significant. He was born to his mom and dad, Steven and Terry Capel, in Puyallup, WA. He had two brothers, Michael and John, and two sisters, Jennifer and Alina. These, the reason we're sort of naming them more so is because they actually become quite significant, or several of these characters become quite significant in the story as we go along.

19:56 Yeah, I think the. So they were, they belong to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints as well. They had a very. Dysfunctional home life. Very different to Susan. 'S very different to Susan's. So where Susan's family was close, Josh's family weren't. It was a very tumultuous and. Weirdly close in a different kind of way, I guess. Weren't they in that? So Steven and his wife separated, but not until the children were teenagers, so quite later into their marriage. But yeah, there was some interesting dynamics of their relationships.

20:35 Should we put it that way? Yeah, We will get to more detail of that as we go along. Yeah. In the 90s, Joshua was living in Tacoma. He was a student at the University of Washington. And he, at this time, he actually became involved with a woman by the name of Catherine Terry Everett. They met at an LDS congregation and he was infatuated by her. And the only reason I'm bringing her up is because it kind of speaks to his character and the way that he engaged with women. He, Joshua had a lot of audio journals and these after all of the events that we're going to speak about transpired, these audio journals were actually made available and made public.

21:26 And Oh my God, the things that he talks about are deeply, deeply disturbing. But I, I wanted to bring this up now because I think it really shows that it wasn't because of Susan, even though, you know, we'll come to why he says everything Susan's fault. He was like this before he engaged in his before he even knew Susan, before he'd even met Susan. He had a lot of romantic interests as a young man, many of which were not reciprocated, and this angered him. He did not like that he wanted relationships.

22:04 He was met with rejection left, right and center. He really unnerved the women that he pursued. So he would be incredibly intense and he would just scare them off. He, he was just weird and creepy. And when you listen to his audio recordings, you can totally understand why he he talks about. He basically stalked these women. Yeah. And couldn't believe that they then didn't want to go out on a date with him. Yes. Now, it's probably worth noting that in the LDS faith, there is no sex before marriage.

22:43 There's no really no touching, kissing, anything like that. If if you're sort of really adhering, there's sort of a purity culture within the LDS church. And Josh had ambitions beyond that, I think. And so for the fact that he was pursuing LDS girls who were raised here into the. Culture. Yeah, yeah. I mean, the fact that he was so, oh, vehemently, like pursuing them in a way that they didn't want to be pursued, oh, he's just gross. Yeah, so Catherine and him became quite serious as well. Engaged.

23:23 No, they were engaged, but they were moving towards quite serious. But he became quite controlling and she ended up going to visit a friend of hers out of state at one stage. And so at that point, I, I think what's kind of gone on there is this girlfriend, obviously she's going to visit. It's gone. Get out while you can. She ended up breaking up with him over the phone at that point, just didn't return. So yeah, it was pretty, yeah. I think she. She got out. She's. She did the right thing, Yeah, Dodged.

23:50 A bullet. For sure, absolutely dodged a bullet. Yeah, so Susan and and Josh meet at an LDS, the meet up like for singles. And look, Susan grew up and her sort of goal in life, really her absolute ultimate goal. She wanted to be a wife and a mother. They were her absolute be all and end all things. They met a lot to her. So she met Josh and they dated very quickly and within two months they were engaged already, though there were red flags for her family. They were not too keen on Josh. They were, they did sort of give her a few bits of advice here and there saying like she was only 19, he was 23 at this point.

24:30 They were saying, look, Josh is just a bit odd. Josh is a bit strange. And one of his sisters, actually one of her sisters actually said to her, look, he's harmless, but he's, you know, he, there's something not quite right. I believe her mom even said to her when I look at Josh I see darkness which I see darkness in his. Eyes or something like this. Her mum could just see it. So you see something. There was none of them could put their finger on what it was about him and no one was like, you know, it's at the start.

24:58 He was like love bombing her, essentially. Like he? Well, well, you he was. He was a bit of a no. Hoper actually at this point, so he'd gotten himself into a lot of debt. He was he to me, if we knew nothing else. And all we knew at this point was what had happened to this point, it was a bit of a no Hooper. He'd gotten himself into debt. He didn't work. So. But he loved computers and always wanted the latest of all the computer games and accessories and consoles and all of that sort of stuff and never saved up money for them.

25:28 Like he put them on credit. And so when he met Susan, and Susan was even at 19, was very fiscally responsible, like she had kind of started to set herself up. Yeah, as you said, knowing that eventually she wanted to start a family. And look, in the LDS Church, it's not uncommon to have children quite young. Yes. So for her, she was probably thinking in the next few years, this is where I'm sort of want to be. That's where people were like. What there was a it was huge that her parents and her sisters were saying to her, go date as many people as you want.

26:00 Just go to dating. Like maybe not this one. So because in the LDS Church, typically it would be you're 19 and you've met a guy that seems that, you know, if he's nice enough, it'd be like, you know, like, yes, you get married, you have killed children. That would be a fairly standard thing. But they were really kind of sort of forcing this issue a little bit of like, let's see what else is out there and directing her away, which she didn't because she was not. This is the guy. This is the one smitten she.

26:24 Really was smitten. And he did. I mean, she kind of became his world. And there's there's a video. Clip of their wedding, which happened pretty quickly. So no, they got married. So they in November 2000 and they were married in April 2021? Yeah, like 6/20/2000. And one yeah, sorry, 2000 and. One yeah, yeah. So like 6 months after they met they married like it was. Very quick, but there's a video of their at their wedding of them doing their dance like kind of thing right now. I don't know and I don't know whether it's hindsight when I look at it, the way he looks at her, it's creepy.

26:58 I thought that it's almost like he's and I don't know whether it's him like putting on a show of like I'm so in love with you, like creepily, like trying to like look at her in this sexual. I don't know that's. What I'm saying about when I was talking about him as like this younger man pursuing women, it was creepy, yeah. And it was like, sexually motivated, I think. But then he didn't. Like people touching him. No. So I think it it was all about like, well, we'll get into it, but maybe watching things like that and what the perception of those things.

27:36 Absolutely. Absolutely. But yeah, I know exactly what I know the video you're talking about 'cause I thought the same thing. It really gave me the he really gives you look. Oh yuck yuck. Yuck, yuck and. And Susan was. 19 and you could tell she was in love. She was she. She's a beautiful girl. Like. Yeah. Stunning, stunning woman. Yeah, But she was only 19, and she didn't know. What? She didn't know. She had no experience, Right. She hadn't had any significant relationships before Josh. She was. No, She was a good LDS girl.

28:06 Yeah, You know, doing all the right things. Exactly. And she was a cosmetology school. Yes, which she finished. Well, I think around the time they got married, Yeah, she was suddenly. Fairly finishing up sort of stuff at that point and. By all accounts, she was very, very good at that, but she ended up taking a job with Wells Fargo Investments after she finished cosmetology. So that was when they. They moved because so when they after they first got married, they moved they because Josh had well he was working jobs here and everybody lose his job.

28:34 It was in and out of work and things he wasn't able to commit to jobs. It was and wasn't where they were. He might get sacked but also he might quit. Like it was very be tumultuous in that respect. He would spend a lot of money, no work ethic. He just wanted everything to be handed to him. Yeah, but he. So they were so he he filed a bankruptcy of with a debt of $200,000. So this wasn't a small amount of debt. Like really that's a fairly huge amount of debt. Pretty sure. Did they own their? House when he filed for bankruptcy, I think he did because I think the bankruptcy didn't actually include their mortgage.

29:05 They were able to keep that separate because they put the house in Susan's name, I think, but I think that happened before they. Moved in with with Steve and. Oh, OK, yeah, I don't know. Yeah, the financial stuff sort of got me a little bit trying to track that exactly. When that happened, it didn't really. I couldn't find dates on things I've got. It written down. Yeah, you've got it filed. For bankruptcy. In 2007, so OK, so that was. After kids, even. Yeah, after they'd had kids. OK, so therefore.

29:33 Yes. It must have not included the mortgage and that so Yeah, yeah. So but I was still didn't have a lot of money. And they moved in with with Josh's dad, which also included his at least one of his brothers. I think the other brother was in and out a little bit. Yep, at that point. And also his youngest sister Elena. Elena. So so there was also so there was Michael. He would have been potentially out in and out with. He was in the military. Yes. And John was his other brother was diagnosed with schizophrenia and bipolar disorder had like quite a few, you know, issues with in terms of mental health and other things going on for him.

30:09 So he also was not always at home. I guess in that in that in under that roof. Alina was a consistent she was always under that roof and Steve. So they moved in with them to save some money. Jennifer by. This stage, his other sister, we will get to her. Absolutely. She was already married and living with her husband. Yes. Out of the home. Yeah. Yeah, so. They living under his roof a while, but then it was up to I think it was not 2004 they moved out of that home and we'll get to wine later and moved to West Valley, UT.

30:40 And so they bought a house that they didn't own that house. So that's obviously they were saved, if not money, managed to buy this place and and in 2005 then had their first child, Charles Charlie named after. Named after Susan's dad, Chuck, Yeah. So he was born on January 19th in 2005, followed on with a second boy, Brayden, born on January 2nd of 2007. So already though in this marriage there was cracks, you know, like there was. So she was, Josh was very controlling. So as much as she was the one working at Wells Fargo, she was earning the money of the house.

31:19 Josh was at home on his computer, spending a hell of a lot of money with equipment and things, but he gave her he'd buy really weird. Shit, yeah, he he, they he would control all of their money Yeah, and would absolutely berate Susan for spending money on like I I there was an A diary entry of Susan. So she kept journals yes. She also kept audio Diaries and so did Josh. I've never known people to keep she wasn't as. No, no Diaries was. Absolutely. He was. He was, but she. Wasn't she only really kept there?

31:51 Was sort of certain there was only a few of hers, but yeah in one of her written. Journals, though, she talks about how Josh controlled their spending to the point where she had to write down every basically every cent that she spent. And she bought eggs one day and there were $0.27 more expensive than the other shop and he'd expected her to go to the other shop. I'm like, would it cost more than $0.27 to get to the other shop? Get to the other shop. Well, or would it because he purposely sold? Yeah, he sold her car just behind her back kind of thing.

32:22 Didn't really tell her so which meant that they only had one family car, which he it was his car and she then which he didn't work, he was at home. She wasn't allowed to use that car to go to work. She had to ride her bike 7 miles to work every morning and back again every every evening. Yeah, I know. Sometimes people joke about I had to walk. The school 7 miles in the snow. You kids don't know how good you've got. She was, like, in the snow. They lived in Utah. Yeah, they lived in Salt Lake City, UT, and she had to ride her bike some days in inches of snow to get to work.

32:56 And the only way to get there was on this highway that had like a very narrow shoulder.

33:07 Yes, yeah. He was very controlling. So he would control how much money she was allowed to have. She'd have a certain amount of money. I think it was maybe $100 for, like, I don't know how long, maybe a couple of weeks even to feed herself and the boys and clothe them. Yeah. And he didn't want them having certain coats when they lived in that kind of where they were just talking about he, you know, it was too much to buy the $20 coats that, you know, from Target or wherever they were living nearby Walmart.

33:33 Yeah. Yep, he was very tight with her having any money, but he spent, he couldn't spend. There was no tomorrow. And. And he'd buy like random shit that they didn't even need. Like no, he was, as you said, he loved the sound of his own voice, obviously. So he'd buy camcorders. And I mean he also won a camcorder at a Christmas party again, we will get to that. But he he would spend money on the weirdest shit like rug cleaners and I mean that was in the end for a purpose as well. But he would buy the most random shit and then just not use it, no?

34:05 But yet she. Had to eat. Did you hear about her friend at work said that they'd gotten a good deal on cans of chili, Like like canned chili meat, sort of like soup. And they bought so much of it that every single day Susan would bring a can of chili to work because that's all she could afford to bring. Well, when I say all she could afford, all Josh would allow her to afford to bring to work. And one day her friend opened up her drawer and Susan had swapped a can of chili for her friend, had brought like a can of tuna and some crackers or something.

34:40 And she said, gotcha, swapped it or something like that. And she's like, my can of tuna would have been worth less than the can of chili probably. But because she couldn't, you know, and she couldn't stand to eat another can of chili. She was like, I'd much rather have my friends tuna and crackers. But he controlled everything. They he didn't like it if she bought like the more expensive of anything. No. And they had to buy like the cheapest hot dogs and like, I'm talking not nourishing food really, you know, at the end of the day.

35:11 Yeah. Anyway. But the the controlling behaviours got so bad within the household, even that one of her friends said that she didn't want to go to the house anymore where Josh was don't be under that same roof. So she would organize their catch up. She wouldn't want to not see Susan. That was not what she was. She knew that Susan was in a situation where she needed her friends, so she would just make sure she organized all their catch UPS either at her house or they'd meet somewhere because it was just awful to be in that house.

35:37 That's that's a vibe no one needs. And the fact that he was always. There like he would feel probably uncomfortable, especially with that kind of, I don't know, that kind of that creepy vibe. As you said, it's not it's not comfortable. And he actually, he even says in his some of his audio journals, he even says, I don't like people coming over because then we have to feed them. Oh yeah, like. Yeah, you know, and. So, you know, that costs money. Yeah. And This is Money that he. Not even he's earning, you know, it's not even he's like going, I'm earning all the I'm earning, you know, a small amount of money and I don't want to spend it on people.

36:07 Susan's earning the money and you're saying don't spend any of your that money on anybody. Like he's the controlling nature of him was awful. So by July 2009, Susan was she knew she wasn't in a good situation. She knew that things weren't weren't going well and that she needed to make some changes here. But she also knew and didn't have an understanding that it wasn't a safe environment for her and the boys. So there had been actually one particular conversation where in this sort of where she was getting like to a point of like, I need to leave where Josh had said to her over my dead body, you'll leave me and over my dead body that you'll take those boys away.

36:47 And I don't, I can't remember if it was his sister or her sister that overheard that conversation, but it was witnessed by. Yeah. OK. So it was Jennifer. Jennifer. Yeah. OK. Yeah. I wasn't sure which one, but yeah. So that 100% was said, which is just awful. And I do believe he meant that as strictly as it came out of his mouth. But so she was, she did go and see a lawyer and get some advice very much on the download. She had to keep all these things very, very quiet from him. The lawyer suggested that she do some documenting of their assets and those sorts of things so that if Josh got wind of her leaving and he sold things on her or hid things, that that she'd have a documentation of what was there so that things could be split more, more equally if that was to occur.

37:33 So this that and you can actually see those videos if you wanna go and check them out. It's kind of her personality comes across in that a little bit of you get a real vibe of who she was. I think that a vibe that she was a. Broken woman. Yeah, because the way she talks about it. So I I wrote down a couple of quotes. Yeah. She wrote, I want it to be documented that there is extreme turmoil in our marriage. And she also wrote if I die, it may not be an accident, even if it looks like 1. So she wrote that.

37:58 Actually in her will that she put in. So all this went into that those videos, she put a will into a safety deposit box that she actually got her friend to do for her. She got her friend to go and put those in there. And on the envelope of the will that she handwrote, it was that she had on the envelope, it said on the front of it for my family and friends, except Josh. I do not trust him. Like it's. Yeah. And then she, she knew. She. Knew. Where she knew that she was in danger. She really didn't like she's forced.

38:28 She's foreseeing something and not not to the point of like anyone thinking that. Oh, it's a bit extreme, you know. No, she she knew what she was actually up against. I really do. It's awful. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. The other thing is she, the reason she couldn't do a lot of these things and go to do the safety deposit box or go anywhere beyond what she was allowed to do by Josh is because he would check mileage on the car. Yeah. So she she literally could not go anywhere without him knowing that she'd gone somewhere.

39:00 Yeah, she even like. Hid notes and things in her desk at work yeah, so there was down the track we'll get to like, you know, when the police investigate things, they did find all these things along the way, like. And so she left little snippets of information with friends and all those sorts of things that were able to be put pieced together a little. So she said, she said to. Friends that if anything happens to me, make sure the police look at Josh and her friends were like, well, what we need, we need you to get out what, what are we doing?

39:29 But she was starting to get a A. Plan in place. Yeah, that's right. There she was seeking advice, she was trying to get things in place. But what we know is so on Saturday the 5th of December in 2009, Josh and Susan went to Josh. So he had a job by this time, but it was again on and off, you know what he was actually doing. But they went to the Christmas party, and they'd had, by by all accounts, a fairly good night. He was very eager to get home early enough so that they didn't have to pay the babysitter too much.

40:01 And anyway, while he was at this sorry, at this Christmas party, he actually won a camcorder. So they get home, they go to bed that night, relieve the babysitter, go to bed, it's all good the next morning. So by this stage, I think it's also worth noting that Josh had really sort of defected from the LDS faith. He did not want to go to church in. They had tried some counselling because their marriage was obviously very fractured. And he had agreed to attend church, I think one Sunday a month. And Susan had agreed to not go to church one Sunday a month to try and I don't know, repair things or see things from each other's perspective.

40:45 But on this particular Sunday, on the 6th of December in 2009, it was just Susan, Charles and Braden who went to church, their neighbor. So who the neighbor was actually, who they met at church that day and then invited over, it was Giovanna. Her son was the one who'd been babysitting the boys the night before. And, and anyway, she came over and were they doing some craft activity or something like that? She came over for some reason, Yeah. Anyway, her testimony is that she left the house at about 5:00 PM that day and that Josh had been making pancakes for.

41:20 The for and the boys and the thing with that and Jennifer, his sister attest to this, that that is odd because he refused not, I mean just didn't do it. He refused to do any of the cooking. That was always a Susan thing to do and so also said. That he was very attentive to Susan that day, blanket over her. Gave her her pancakes and and said, here, go and put a blanket. And she even commented to Giovanna like, oh, he's so lovely, you know, doing that for me and that's so great. But she would then not long after eating these pancakes, felt unwell.

41:56 And so I'm going to go and lie down. I'm just not feeling very well. So she left the room, went upstairs to go and have a lay down. And Giovanna was still sort of there talking with Josh and that, but all of a sudden he was like, I'm going to take the boys sledding, like, you know, put their coats on and was like, very adamant he was leaving and actually walked out the door before Jovana even had left. Like, so she was still in the house. She sort of closed up the door behind her as she left. So which left Susan, Susan at home laying down, not feeling 100%.

42:25 And Josh and the boys off sledding in the afternoon. So quite cold and snowy in that sense. So yeah. So it was a Stormfront. Rolling in? Absolutely. Very. So it was. Actually snowing, yeah. And it was very cold and it was almost, it's been described as almost Blizzard like conditions were rolling in. And we've known that there was this, you know, big sort of storm of the snowstorm coming, Yes. So. What happens next? Yeah, well. So from this point, we basically the the next. So at this point, we wake up the next morning to, I mean, Susan should have gone to work, Josh should have gone to work.

43:02 The boys should have gone to their child carer who named Debbie Caldwell. Now, Debbie Caldwell said that every single day that the boys were expected to be with her, they rocked up on time and there was, you know, never any issues. So when they didn't arrive and there was no phone call to say, oh, we're all homesick, you know, or whatever, all the blizzards, you know, come in and we we can't, we snowed in or whatever reason for them to not be. There was no communication. She was like, this is not right.

43:25 Contacted, tried to call and those sort of things couldn't get hold of anyone. So she ended up calling Josh's mum, who was living at the time with his older sister Jennifer. She spoke to Josh's mum and said, look, this is unusual. I can't get hold of Susan or Josh. And there's they're, they're not here. They haven't arrived for their normal drop off for the morning. So Josh's mum is like and Jennifer are both like that's, that is really odd. Let's go out to their house. They went too far away. They drove over.

43:56 So by about midday they got out to his house, the Josh and Susan's house, just really quickly. Yeah, what Debbie actually did that morning. So she is a home daycare worker and she had six other kids that she was looking after. And she had a minivan. Yeah. So she used to drop a lot of the kids to school in the morning. So what she decided to do was on her way to doing the school drop off, she's like, I'm just gonna drive past the PAL house and see if I can see anything untoward because this was so unusual.

44:21 Yeah, She drove there. She said it was virgin snow. There was no tire tracks coming out of the garage. There were no footprints on the front yard. It was fresh virgin snow. She pulled her minivan up, went up to the front door and knocked on the front door. And there was no answer. But she could see the curtains flapping in, the breeze flapping from the inside. And she's like, oh, So her immediate concern was actually that they were all lying in their dead from carbon monoxide poisoning. Because with heaters on.

44:54 With heaters on and. You know, given the Blizzard conditions, in fact, you could see the curtains kind of indicating. Maybe she was like, what the hell is? Actually going on here. Yeah. So she's then contacted Josh's, Josh's mum and then Josh's mum's like, all right, we need to call 911. Yes, And get somebody out there. But Josh's mum and sister actually arrived before the police did. I mean, it was. It was fairly. Yeah, fairly close proximity. Yeah. When then the uniformed officers arrived at the PAL house, so Jennifer and Terry, Terry Car, Yeah, Terry Car were already there.

45:27 Yeah. And they decided because there was absolutely due concern that because, again, they could see these curtains flapping, there was due concern to break into the house because there was no response. They couldn't get them on their phones. No one knew. They hadn't said that they were going away. They hadn't said anything was going on, so the police officers actually broke a window and gained that gained access to the house with their permission. Yeah, with the permission of. Jennifer and Terraca, and when they walked inside, nothing was untoward.

45:58 Now, the only. Well, yeah. So when I say that, I mean, no, the heater wasn't the there was nothing out of place. So it's not like there'd been a domestic violence incident there. That was obvious. There were no broken dishes, No. No one home? No. One home, there was nobody. There were no bodies on the ground. There was nothing like that. Yeah. There was something a little bit unusual, though, but it explains the flapping of the curtains. They found two big box fans pointed at their couch and an area of their living room with that was carpeted.

46:32 And it was very, very obvious that the couch had been cleaned recently cleaned. And was still. Damp or wet? Yeah. The other thing they. Found too was Susan Powell's bag, her handbag with her purse and things in it in her room, untouched, so it was just placed where it would normally, I guess, look to be placed for the night. Yeah, you know, yeah. Yeah, end of the day, yeah. So. It all was very like, well, hang on a second, where are they? What's going on? So at this point the lead detective is it arrives on scene at this point, Alice Maxwell.

47:05 So he's lovely, lovely guy. So such a lovely guy. He was actually, he immediately something just didn't sit right for him with this whole situation. He was actually pursed that they'd entered the house because it was a potential crime scene. So he was kind of like he kicked everyone else, everyone out of the house at that point. So there was no more. But the other thing was that you don't have a warrant to be in there either. So, you know, anything they do find is, you know, they can't use. So he kicked everyone out and they kept trying to sort of work out what he did do was he took photos of things around the house at that point.

47:37 He did do that so that but he didn't touch anything so and exited. Leave that leave that alone. But at this point also then about round about 3:00, finally Giovanna or gets hold of Josh on the phone through her son's. Phone. Yeah, so weirdly. Enough from her phone. Yeah. He didn't answer. And. Which Alice Maxwell, he says. So he goes, I was trying to get hold of him. I was ringing constantly, no answer. So was everyone. Everyone's trying this guy as Erica was. Finally, he answers the phone randomly at 3:00 PM and he answers now, and this is he.

48:09 He answers the phone and Giovanna just says to him, Josh, where are you? What's going on? Like Susan's not here. She didn't show up for work today. And he's like, oh, I'm on my way home. Like, no, he goes. No, she's at. Work. Oh, she's at work. I'm on my way. Home. Oh, she would have made it. She would have gone to work. Yeah. And so he'd sort of, she goes, you've got to come home immediately and he's like, oh, OK, well, whatever. And he hangs up from her. So then Maxwell actually gets him on the phone, then asked straight away after that and rings him again and goes, mate, this is this isn't OK.

48:40 Susan's not at work, she hasn't turned up for work. You need to come home immediately. His response to that is, oh, I need to feed the boys, but oh, OK, what the fuck? And then? In the recording of it. Have you heard the recording of this? It's so interesting because then he, like, literally completely ignores Maxwell. Yeah. And he's like, boys, do you want pizza or burgers or where do you want us to go? Yeah. And he. And and Maxwell's like, you have to come home immediately. Yeah, there's your wife.

49:10 Is missing. Yeah, we. Don't. Know where Susan is? Do you know where Susan is? She's at work. No, no, we've established that she's not at work. Yeah. So you've been. Clearly. Told that, but he doesn't. Even give an affirmative that he's coming home and he's like, Josh, you need to come home. And he's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, no. Was it like over an hour later? An hour and a half later? So what he does first? Though he hangs up for that phone call from Maxwell, turns around in his vehicle and you can they can spot all this.

49:35 He's so he's driving north, however, stops the vehicle, turns around, drives for 20 minutes in the opposite direction, heads South for 20 minutes stops, calls Susan's phone which is in the vehicle with him and leaves a voicemail message. Hey, hope you're all good. Hope you got to work OK and we're just on our way back so I'll see you soon want Anyway, left that voicemail message and got back on the road again. Again. So he then goes and heads to he did go and get the kids food and stuff. He did all those things.

50:10 He wasn't in any rush. Just in case you're wondering whatsoever. Yep, no. So on his way through though, where does he go? He goes to her work, goes to Susan's work, drives, parks out the front there, calls again to the phone that is sitting in the vehicle with him and leaves yet another voicemail message saying hi. I'm just letting you know I'm out the front, you know, waiting for you. He's been told that she didn't go to work today by multiple people at this point, and her phone is in the vehicle with him.

50:38 So I'm going to get really angry. What a freaking weirdo thing to do. So yeah, he finally leaves there and goes to the police station at that point, then, to which he has a brief interview with the police. I thought he went home. No. So he goes here. So they go, he goes to the police station and has a brief chat with them of like what where things are AT. And so we're getting quite late now by this stage. So he's like, so the police officer says to him, Maxwell says, right, we've had a bit of a chat consensus that this is weird.

51:07 And so he goes, sends him home to have a rest, have sleep because take the boys, get them sleep, get them, get your mom, obviously take over the kids, come back in the morning for a full proper interview and we'll get more information. He's like. Come back at 9 AM, 9:00 AM the next morning. We'll have, but get some rest, some slicks. It's actually getting quite late at this point. Yeah. So that was sort of the plan of attack at that point. But in none of this is he well, where's my wife? Like I didn't wouldn't you be out searching?

51:32 Wouldn't you be like, I mean, bringing everyone, you know, going have you seen Susan? Like there's none of that. And this is all you know, you can see these these videos of these interviews and things with him. He is sitting there like it's like whatever, because he also. I was reading somebody's commentary about his demeanour in these in these interviews. Yeah. And it actually is very striking the way he behaves. He behaves like somebody who there's no fucks to like there's no respect for the situation that he's in.

52:06 So like he literally doesn't. He doesn't wait to be asked to sit down. He doesn't wait to. There's no formality in the way that he's behaving given the situation that he's in. He just like slouches in his chair. He's like, there's no, there's no respect for this situation that he's in or the fact that penetrated at. All what's going on? No, the only information he did give to the police officers at that stage was that fact that oh, I took the boys camping for the night. We left at about 2/30, 1:00 in the morning to go camping in a fucking Blizzard and we left my wife at home.

52:42 He wanted. To test out his new generator. Yeah, that's what he said with. Young children, these are the boys were like 2 and four at this stage. So he took them out into a Blizzard. But you know, that was a warnings had been no. The Blizzard had already started. Yeah, yeah. He so this time in the night it was full go. His kids would have been asleep at what? I mean, maybe they weren't because apparently there was no like he didn't actually in control, like, you know, have control over those things.

53:09 But they've been asleep by 12:30 at night. Like he's got them out of bed and decided to go camping for the night. And the police officer? Interviewing him, says, which is Maxwell is interviewing him. Unfortunately, the kids were with him for this first fairly informal interview. They didn't read him, as Miranda writes at for this interview. So it was very informal. Yeah. Because they were just trying to gather information at this point, figure out where Susan is. Yeah. And so in in that they're sort of talking to him about what did Susan say when you said you wanted to take the kids out at 1:00 or 1:30 or whatever time it was in the morning in the middle of a Blizzard?

53:46 Wasn't she concerned? And he's like, she didn't care which is. From all accounts of everyone else, not true. That would not have been the case. No, she would not have been okay with that. So for the fact. That they weren't acquitted to deal with that kind of weather. As you were saying before, they, the boys didn't even have proper coats. They didn't have proper snow tents or anything like that. I don't even know what you need, but you know. What you need? No, but all I know is. They they weren't well equipped to be spending a night in the snow.

54:15 No, especially Can you imagine driving somewhere 2:00 in the morning with your kids and then having to set up camp? Yeah. From all accounts, in order to set up what he says he set up that night, it would have taken him until about 4:00 AM, Just set everything up. Yeah. They then say that he says that he got woken up by the sun the next morning, even though there was no sun because there was still a Blizzard. And so there was like, I mean, obviously it became lighter, but there was no sunrise that you could actually see.

54:43 No. But he says he woke up at about 7:00 AM so he's had what, 3 hours of sleep? The kids too. Like honestly, this is just, it's insanity. What? He's talking like it's really bullshit. Like it's absolute bullshit now at. This point also, they haven't, they haven't been able to get a search warrant for the house because they just aren't getting information. But also like, so they don't have evidence to put one in for a judge like, because there's nothing yet there, you know what I mean? Like, so they do take his car into possession for do they?

55:20 So they do have that to look at. So I think at this point that they do take that into their position to to have a look over the car overnight. And he goes home now the next morning he's meant to be at the police station at 9:00 AM. Yeah. However, what does Josh do? He meticulously cleans and tidies the entire house. As I said to you, there was no search warrant that was executed at that home, yet nothing had been other than what they'd broken into that prior day to like, see that they had not searched that property yet.

55:51 They had seen it, but not searched it. So he meticulously cleaned this place, which he never, ever did. So the other thing. To note is he had Jennifer and Terika there that morning and he was directing them to clean things as well. And Jennifer said to her mum, mum, I really don't think we should be doing this. But her mum's like, just do it. Just do what he's asking because, I mean, he had so much control over her too, that this is that's well, you know, that's just very. We will get there. But then Jennifer ended up ringing Maxwell and saying, do you think we should be cleaning this stuff up?

56:24 And he's like, no, yes. And he's like, no, no, you shouldn't be. Yeah. And then by that stage is when Maxwell was like, well, I've been trying to call Josh all morning. Yeah. He was meant to be here at 9:00 AM. It's midday by this stage. Yeah. And he's not there and she's like, well, I think then she's obviously gotten him to go to the police station 4. Hours late? Yep. To the to. His 9:00 appointment at and at this point, again, I'm sorry, why aren't you looking for your wife? Like he's not worried about her at all.

56:55 There was no concern. He was more worried about cleaning the house. Which giant red flag, surely? I mean Oh my God. Circumstantial 100%. So he goes in for a further chat with the police. At this point, the and while this happens, the police do secure the house. They've got his car. And they said to him after chatting to him and having a more interview, fairly interview, which he wasn't forthcoming with much really at all, wasn't helpful, all those sorts of things. Maxwell said to him, look, we just need your car for probably another 15 minutes.

57:27 So if you want to just wait here, your car will be ready for you to take. So he instead of doing that, he just disappeared. Maxwell was like, you were meant to be waiting for your car like it wasn't far away. It was good that we're going to give it back to him. He not only disappeared from that police station, he disappeared for 20 hours. He went straight from the police station to the airport, rented a car and then disappeared for 20 hours. And no one knows where he was for those 20 hours. He turned off his mobile phone, no.

57:59 So there's no data collection off his mobile phone with him in that time. Interesting to note at this point his dad is also unable to be tracked at that point for those exact same 20 hours because his mobile phone is also turned off, which Oh my God. So all they do know from this is from the data of the rental car company is that his car travelled 800 miles in those twenty hours. So this. Is there was no like these days you rent a car, it's got AGPS tracker on it. They didn't have that, no. So it was just by odometer readings that they were able to gather that he's travelled 800 miles in 20 hours.

58:42 Where did he go? Oh, I was just driving around.

58:47 Oh yeah. Where to so interestingly? Enough the 800 miles that he could have driven is basically meets up entirely in the middle of where his dad lives in Washington and where he lives in West Valley in Utah. 800 miles would have got him to there halfway and back again kind of stuff. So that's just interesting to note. So this is where so Steve becomes a little bit more red flagged in that sense like that. His phone was turned off at the same point as well. They thought it's time maybe to have a chat with with Steven and bring him in and have a little chat.

59:20 In this first interview that he does with police, it immediately becomes concerning to the police because he doesn't take long for Steve and to admit to being infatuated with Susan. Now I'm not even. Talking like she's a lovely girl. Girl. She's what? A wonderful daughter. No, no, no, no, no. Completely and utterly obsessed with her and that. And he was completely and actually convinced that Susan was in love with him, too. Yeah. Delusional. Delusional motherfucker. This is the one. This is where we turn now.

1:00:03 Completely bonkers. It's fucking. Bonkers. Now what a piece of shit. Let's introduce. Steve fucking We're going to say things about Steve here where where you would have thought if someone had written a murder mystery nightmare, you know, thriller, killer movie and this shit would have been in it and you'd been like 4. That's a bit much. Yeah. Oh. Parrot back a bit, yeah. This is Steve, Steve. Is a sexual deviant from way back, so according to his. Ex-wife Terrica in their divorce paperwork, which is it was filed in 1992, she claimed that pornography with his sons was shared and.

1:00:54 We're talking about like young teen, like not even preteen. So Josh was 16 when they divorced. So and she's talking way prior to even I did read. Somewhere, although this wasn't corroborated and I didn't read it anywhere else, but Josh was 9 when he first when. He first saw. Porn. With his dad. Oh God.

1:01:15 Their marriage was not good. And one of the biggest breaking points of their marriage was, according to Terrico, was that Steve brought in the idea of start having another wife starting polygamy, which she was. Absolutely. She was Mormon, but not that Mormon. There's very two factions of that of the Mormon short church, and that is you're into it or not. Nope. And there's a majority of them are not. And so they do separate themselves entirely from that. And she was definitely that down that road.

1:01:45 Yeah. But interestingly, clearly there was affairs that took place in the marriage though, because at one stage Steve gave her an STD, so she knows that he must have been doing some things. He had some very interesting ideas, whether they were within the church, were all realms or not. As in that he didn't really enforce limits on the children at all. He didn't believe in the school system so couldn't have cared less if they went to school. The kids were never given boundaries. They were absolutely awful to her.

1:02:19 There was a particular story where Josh pulled a knife on his mom, another one where she had like said to him, oh, Josh, do you mind just doing the dishes? And she and he just turned around her and told her to fuck off. And you know, how dare she requests that of him. The all the boys particularly spoke to her atrociously like that. There was allegations that Josh killed Jennifer's pet gerbils by Jennifer as children. And again, none of that would have been, you know, spoken about from from Steve's perspective.

1:02:54 So very interesting household in dynamics. Yeah, absolutely. So Steve had a. Hold over all the children other than Jennifer, the eldest daughter Jennifer very much sort of steered clear of things she stayed within like speaking terms with her dad and her siblings but had very strong views on that these things were not normal and that they shouldn't have been occurring and she she did her best I think to juggle both sides of her family what blows my. Mind is the fact that Jennifer has or had any engagement with her father whatsoever because he sexually assaulted her and I'm not talking once or twice and I'm not even talking low level anything.

1:03:41 I am talking full blown sexual assault, repeated sexual assault against her.

1:03:49 Whether her mom knew about it or not is unknown. However, I just don't see how she couldn't have known. But I also see how she was probably really powerless in that situation. Because Steve had a hold over that entire family and he dictated everything that went on within that family, what was acceptable and what wasn't. And his sexual depravity not only covered Jennifer and all of the explicit things that he did to her and made her do, but the fact that he then exposed his sons to some extremely violent pornography and very what's the like, paedophilic pornography?

1:04:37 That's abuse towards those boys too, the fact that they were. And in terms of any perpetration against Elena, it's not known. No, we'll get she's. Yeah, she's not. Come forward to say no much Let's. Just say that I mean these situations generally as a form of protection. People will side with their abuser and it will look on the outside of, you know, that these people are, you know, they are under his spell. They do what he says, and because they know that that's actually the safer thing to do. As awful as those things are that you're being told to do or be a part of, they become your normal, you know, because psychologically, the brain and everyone in all parts of that person become, well, if I didn't, I wouldn't want to be on the other side of that.

1:05:30 Yeah, that's right. Because they also saw the abuse that Steve perpetrated against their mom and you know, the the odd time that somebody would go up against him and it was just not not worth living their life. So there was a definite. Sort of attitude from the males in the household, like you know that Steve or Steve instilled that in his his boys then of like that women are dirt and only good for their bodies, which is actually they're actually work. Josh. 'S mouth. You know they're there for the.

1:05:56 Sexual gratification of men and then Josh's attitude towards women in his college years shows that shows that he just, he was a predator. He was, he was made into a predator. I mean, there's a lot going on for Josh. Oh yeah, I totally. Get that? But he's the influence of his father on on Josh and his brain and the way that he was he operated was not a good combination, awful at all. So Steve, so at this time, we're now talking about the time when Susan and Josh, they're married, they they've moved in with Steve to try and save some money so that they could, first of all, get out of debt from Josh's debt.

1:06:33 He was in, I think when they got married, he was in. Was it like $25,000 worth of debt? And I'm talking with nothing to show for it. Like he had a computer. Yeah, like that's pretty much it. So Susan was working so extremely hard and she did it. They were able to, she was able to pay off Josh's debt. So he not only saw Susan as a sexual plaything, he also, well, he didn't though, because he didn't like. Her he didn't like touching people or then touching her, but but he still felt. He still felt possessive over her.

1:07:04 Possessive. Absolutely controlling over her, but actually didn't become it wasn't a sexual gratification thing for him. No, in that sense, because he yeah, he weirdly went very much the opposite direction of that. He didn't like any affection whatsoever. And you can see him like in videos where she, Susan, is quite an affectionate person and naturally can see that in her personality. Yeah. And she's like leans over Josh and like, hugs him or whatever in any way you would see a couple do that particular young couple and in love.

1:07:33 And you can see him almost like withdraw and like it's just like you're like, it's really unusual. It's shocked me that she didn't feel that in him of that pull away. I don't know, I reckon she would have she. Must have. And she probably. Thought, look, maybe if I'm more like, maybe yeah. That's true, yeah. I mean. She wasn't a she was a smart girl. Yeah, she was a really smart woman. Even in in videos with him engaging with his children, he I could you can tell he's uncomfortable. Yeah, it's not.

1:08:02 Normal children, yeah, but then you look at. The things he was exposed to and you think, okay good. So anyway that Susan and Josh are living with Steve at this point and Steve again keeps fucking video Diaries and audio things and Oh my God oh they are disgusted. Absolutely gross. He he look. Literally would like he would take once you get in the shower, he'd go and get her clothes that she'd laid out, whatever, you know, come out to get dressed afterwards. He would go in and video record, lay her clothes out and put like the underwear underneath the clothing as if like she was laying there.

1:08:37 And and then he'd like pull back the clothing and things and oh, look at it, it's just beautiful. And oh, it's so. It's so gross. It is beyond repulsive and this is his daughter-in-law. He. Susan even wrote in one of her journals that she thought that she could see a mirror that came under the bathroom door while she was having a shower. One day off for sure. So now no, like we'll, we'll get to that in a second. The other thing that creeps me out about just sorry, just really quickly with Steve and Susan, there's again an account by Steve.

1:09:12 So this is in his own words. He says he went to put his arm around her and his hand brushed like so by putting his arm around her, over her shoulder, his hand brushed the top of her breast. And he said that was the most sexually exhilarating moment of his life to that point.

1:09:38 He's just revolting, absolutely revolting. There's a video of him like she bought a new dress and he really loved this dress on her and thought it looked beautiful. So he followed her to work. And there's a video of her walking out of work towards her car. And as she gets into the car as the, the dress, the skirt of her dress kind of as it does as you move into a car and sit your, your skirt comes up a little, right? And this little slip underneath her skirt and the slip kind of shows. And on the video you can hear him narrating this and that, you know, she did that for me.

1:10:13 Oh that this is the. Thing even when he talks about putting his arm around her, he's like, she moved up so that I I could feel that. Yeah, you know she fucking didn't. You fucking creep. Can you imagine? I don't know just that in that situation, she is her the daughter-in-law. She's got her husband, her new fairly new husband here and his father had children before kids. She's she's playing this game of like, you can't go to your how do you go to your husband and say your dad's a fucking creep. I hate him.

1:10:45 I can't stand him. He's disgusting. She's trying to play a game here, like this man's putting a roof over her head so we can move out and, you know, save money. She's 19 without knowledge of, you know, of how to manage the situation. How do you navigate that? I think she did a brilliant job, to be really honest, of trying to navigate like keeping everyone safe and OK. Like she didn't, she would not have felt she was being abused. Like it was an emotional abuse in that sense, yes, of putting her in that position.

1:11:11 She was the voyeurism that was going on. You know that she was unaware of that. That's another form of abuse. Absolutely. The the fact this whole situation was an absolute shit show for her that she had, she was either gonna ruin her marriage, you know, potentially be sexually abused by this bloke, you know, physically already being emotionally sexually abused by him and psychologically, let alone physically that occurring, which she was. I I 100% know that would have been on her mind of like, what the fuck?

1:11:36 Like it's going to happen here. Absolutely. To manage that. Dynamic would have been so challenging and I think she did as best as she freaking ever could have to manage that situation because ultimately he comes to her and this is caught on camcorder that he sat her down in her in his car. Yeah, he picked her up. From work this particular day, yeah, and he expressed. His love for her and she I listening to it. Oh, she does such a good job of like not going. No, no, I'm not into that. She does it because she's she knows she needs to keep the situation calm.

1:12:15 And so people, some people, mainly mainly Alina, believe this is her saying that she did love him because you didn't say she didn't. We'll get to that. She really carefully treads to say, you know that she doesn't reciprocate that because she's married to Josh and I just want to stay in the position of being your daughter-in-law. He actually in that conversation kind of alludes to, Oh, Josh and I could just share you. Yep, how fucking also basically says. Like it this is he almost blames her because and he says like you do these things and they really turn me on and you know, they do.

1:12:55 And you know they do. And she's she goes, Oh, you're, you're actually that that's not I don't know that like that's not I'm sorry if I if she's. She's like, it's so victim here. She's, you know, I'm sorry. You've Yeah, I'm sorry. I've done that for you. You know, I've done that to you. Like she takes all this blame on and like, she's. I'm so sorry. Yeah. Like she, she does not need to apologize for anything. She did not. So awful. But that's literally that middle being that being abused that she's like, I'm apologizing to you for that.

1:13:26 That's my fault. You know, I'm sorry I did that. I didn't mean to and I'm so sorry. Oh, it just breaks my heart. But it's it's awful to listen to and hit the way he speaks to her of like this disgusting. He just draws. He literally draws over her. It's disgusting. And as I say, he's the father-in-law. He's he wants to share her with his son. That is just disgusting. Then you think about. They've been sharing, as in Josh and and Steve have been sharing sexual experiences by engaging in pornography from such a young age.

1:13:57 To him, it was probably nothing. No, it's, it's sickening. And. How much do you feel for this poor little poor little poor young 1920 year old woman I think at this point. Yeah, it's just awful. Absolutely horrific. So somehow. I don't know how she did this. She made somehow managed to express all this to Josh and they moved out. So that's this is when they moved to West Valley, UT. So they did move and then considerable further distance away from him, which, you know, I congratulate her on managing that situation to get herself away from from Steve.

1:14:34 And obviously at no point did she say to Josh, I think, you know, cut your father off entirely. I think she managed that very well of like, you know, we just need to have some distance, you know. However, John and Josh did speak. Stop speaking to him for some time. So there must have been something. We don't really know what, but something's going on in that situation. But as they've moved away slowly, the the phone calls start. Yeah. And according to Jennifer, she witnessed quite a bit of this, that with every phone call that he did make to Steve or Steve to him after that would be an argument with between him and Susan.

1:15:08 So she clearly was like, very much like, what the fuck? Why are you building this relationship back with him? Yeah. He, he, we need to keep the distance. And so I do think she was, you know, don't cut him off. But don't, you know, I don't know. We don't. We're not engaging with him, like with him. This is not right. He's got some issues, like massively. And she wasn't even aware of all of what was going on, as we say, like the voyeurism. And there's more to that. We'll get to. Yeah, Yeah. So she's at this point wanting to kick distance.

1:15:34 But Josh was very much being caught back in again and being pulled back in by Steve. And the phone calls were getting longer and longer and more regular, which was upsetting Susan. And absolutely. Fair enough. Absolutely. And So what were those conversations they were having together? Because Steve still very much even like this is now we're talking years of the maybe of being moved out of his place. And then this interview he had with these police officers was convinced Susan was in love with him and he was in love with her.

1:16:03 Wait, this is like five years after the moving out of that house and that conversation occurring. But she made it clear I'm your daughter-in-law. That's where this ends. Like, you don't walk away from that after five years going, Oh, yeah, this is that's not going to go anywhere, Steve. Steve said in one of his journals that when they moved away, he thought, OK, that's it, Susan's dead to me. I've, I'm not engaging with her anymore because she's rejected me, because how dare she reject him, for fuck's sake.

1:16:35 There was nothing that had fucking. There shouldn't have been anything that'd reject you, dipshit. But then I think it was Alina said to him. No, Dad, you're actually right. Like, I think she really does love you. And the reason she's moved away is because she can't help herself being around you. I know that. Oh, Lena's got problems. I mean, I feel. For her, I have embassy, she's she's. A victim, but oh. My God, at some point she has to get it. And get it, but she doesn't. No. So So what what we're saying here is like this situation was my God volatile at best.

1:17:13 It was just horrific for almost everyone involved. So at this point. Like we're all looking at this going like, well, clearly we know that Susan's missing, Josh have returned. Yep, Steve's a fucking weirdo. Surely someone will be arrested here of some point. Even on circumstantial evidence, there's a fair bit here to kind of maybe pull someone in. Maybe the police didn't like they couldn't. There was a number of reasons for that. They had recently had another case of Elizabeth Smart in the in the Utah area.

1:17:48 Gonna have to cover. We'll cover that on another day someday. But so that was an interesting case. But what happened there basically was that they believed that she had been kidnapped and was killed, but there was no body. And they did try to prosecute family members on it. She turned up alive. So they would trigger trigger shy in terms of really arresting someone and following through on something without a body because they had really it was like it was fresh in their. Memory that very fresh. That that didn't go well and that the public, you know, were not OK with the situation that had gone on.

1:18:21 They jumped to conclusions. I guess where there wasn't any hard evidence, that's it. They. Were. Gun shy, they didn't know really how to take take it in light of of that experience that the police force had recently encountered for sure, Susan.

1:18:39 So the police were trying to think of different theories that might have come to the fore and reasons that she might have, I don't know, gone somewhere because Josh, Josh said. What were his excuses for her that why? So there might have gone a few that he put. Forward that because was a guy went missing about two weeks or something after she did so he made a decision. He made this random connection and went, oh, she's had an affair. She's having affair with that guy who also disappeared. And the two of them have run off together and it's like, well, hang on a second.

1:19:10 There's no evidence of them to ever meeting. They lived at like opposite ends of the state, for one thing. Like there was no connection of these two whatsoever. But he decided, Oh yeah, yeah, she's. And they, he very much came and he was like, they've gone to. Miami or something? Yeah, like. Yeah, where did you even get? That from like so. It's just he. I mean, obviously he was just trying to like, yeah. And clutch at straws. Well, you. Yeah, we. Would think that this would be a bloke could be like out on the search is looking for her and all those sorts of things.

1:19:34 No, he was not. Instead, him and his dad were going on media and spouting all this stuff and really, you know, saying awful things about Susan of putting out there that, you know, that she's left her kids, you know, to run off with a man and all these sorts of things. So and they really and they they Steve love talking about the fact that Stephen that she was in love with him and he told that on, you know, national television as well. So he. He. Was they were really making her out as if she was a sexual person who had?

1:20:05 You know, was really exposing herself to him and that it was all her that put that on him. Really awful, really awful things to this poor woman who had no way to defend herself because where was she? We don't know. We still don't know. No. So at this point, they were basically going, yeah, there's the police were very frustrated because they felt like it was a fairly clear this, that she's, I mean, it was pretty. Evident to them, even though there was no hard evidence. No, it's all. Circumstantial, they had no actual physical evidence.

1:20:32 So they're like, we need to get something. And the one thing they kept referring to was her journals. She had these journals that Josh would speak about in these interviews and things that could clear them. They apparently in these journals, she accused Chuck, her father, of abusing her and that she was a troubled child and had all these issues. And so that I think the journals basically, according to them, was going to clear everything that they had nothing to it because Josh had been named a person of interest, but obviously just not arrested or anything.

1:21:00 So the cops are very frustrated kind of going with these journals. We're going to handle these journals. But they couldn't get a warrant to get into the house because they couldn't prove they even had these journals. So what they do was the cops set up this honking wave. So Chuck and and Steve had a fairly volatile relationship at this point too, because obviously they're bad mouthing their daughter, who he's vehemently trying to find and very, very sure that Josh had something to do with that. So what they did was they basically baited him.

1:21:27 Chuck that sorry, not Chuck was sent out to bait Steven. So they'll do a honking wave, which was what basically the idea was to keep Susan's name out in the public and people looking, you know, that you put up signs and stuff, you know, as people drive past, honk your horn, you know, to, you know, and wave and that to, you know, recognize it and Susan Powell's name and all those sorts of things. So if you support us, honk your horn on your car as you drive past. So they set this up, though, on a particular corner where they knew that Steve would come every Saturday.

1:21:56 He went to a bank, they went on a corner where you'd have to come past and he would see this. And of course Steve can't walk past an opportunity to have his, his voice heard. So he got fell into this entirely, went over, had an argument with Chuck around, you know, like that. Susan's not missing. She's off front, off with a bloke, you know, and all these things and they're arguing. But the whole idea was to get him to mention these journals and try and get some evidence of them having a possession, having them in their possession, so that they could then execute a warrant.

1:22:28 So as you. Know I love the video of this like full video of the two and have this argument and I love it cause Chuck is the most adorable man he's lovely he's. So nice and you can see him just. Kind of like he Steve's there mouthing off, being the Dick that he is and he's saying all this stuff and he's literally walked straight into this trap and you can see Chuck kind of going like, well, we've got what we came for like and can we stop this now? I don't really want to talk to him like it's can I get away from this piece of shit?

1:22:55 And so, yeah, because what he says in that is that the words that he used were those journals were completed when she was 20 years of age when she was Josh's wife. So they are Josh's property. Bang. Gotcha. Yeah, motherfucker the cops Bray would then get their their warrant to then search his house. So at this stage Josh and his boys house we're living with Steve at this point. So they had moved right away from where Susan had gone missing from to Washington and the. Support of, like, all of the people who actually gave a shit about Susan.

1:23:30 She had friends. Jennifer lived there. Yeah. And Terika and and Susan and Jennifer were very, very good friends. Yeah. Sisters in law. Jennifer didn't like Josh. No, she loved Susan. Yeah. And she? Protected a bit, she was, I think she was very much, you know, in her corner for sure. Well, still to this day is. Yes, yeah. So this allows the police then to get into Steve's house. But it with in their mind still is to search for things like they want these journals particularly they are going in there and with Chuck, he's desperately wanting to think that they're walking away from this with an arrest of Josh.

1:24:07 At the end of the. Day of searching that house, he gets a phone call from Alice Maxwell, who says we have made an arrest of Stephen Powell, which Chuck is somewhat disappointed with. However, like, well, why? What's going on? Maybe we have some action here. Unfortunately, it's on. Something completely unrelated. It's something, well, not. Completely unrelated. Unrelated. No, you're right. Not completely on something unrelated to Susan's disappearance. The shit they. Found in that house is just disgusting.

1:24:41 First list of things that were found that were revolting. There was his book after book after book journal, documenting every element of his life in journals, the camera recordings, videotape after videotape, video tape, thousands of thousands and thousands of hours, everything that had all narrated by him and everything. And so there was also photographs. Photographs of Susan, photograph of other women, photograph of children in houses nearby, literally like girls. From SO, he looked at his back.

1:25:16 Yeah, at his back. Window into their bathroom and photograph like I'm talking young, under the age of 10. Young girls, yeah. So there was all of that. Then there was also, there was also photos of Susan and him being superimposed into those photos. Like gross, but even grosser. Again, they were plastic zip lock bags named with Susan's name on them. Dated some with cotton balls of, you know, taking off her nail Polish. Others again named and dated with her fingernail and toenail clippings in them.

1:26:01 Others named and dated with her tampon applicators. I could not be more repulsed by this absolute psychopath. I mean that. That is psychopathic. That is so fucked up, Yeah. Now these were. Things that he had kept for literally, in some cases it was like nearly 10 years. Yep. It was. It's unfathomable there was. Boxes and boxes and boxes of this stuff that they took out of that house and someone had to like sit through those videos and like, you can find them and watch some of these and they are, he's the creepiest guy.

1:26:48 I, I mean, we've done a lot of these and there's a lot more to come that I don't know that we will ever come across another one of him. I hope we don't. I hope not. He, he is. Beyond he is a. Vile piece of shit, I'm actually. Going to go with a sack of shit. It's not just one piece. True. Oh, he's just beyond gross. The worst. He is the worst. Oh, there were 5000 photos of Susan and the so the videos of the other women meant that. So there was voyeurism in that. And so they could contact these women, they could have conversations with them and find out did you know these videos existed of you?

1:27:24 No, no. Therefore prosecute the guy, you know, like so. And it's exactly. And obviously with the children next door, they were able to get to there as well where they would take them to court on that. Now, because Susan is not around, though, they can't prove that she didn't know those videos were being taken of her. When you watch them, it's very clear that she was unaware, but you can't prove it. Even the photos. Yeah, you know, she's not being photographed up. It's only where she does. Know and she interacts with him, but there's there's certainly ones that where she's not absolutely.

1:27:54 Yeah, absolutely. Even in some of the photos you're like, OK, he's like literally cropped her out of a photo that's obviously being taken from a distance. So, you know, and like touching her hair or whatever. It's just so far it's. So, so creepy. So at this stage. Because so Steve's arrested for these things and because a lot of it, it does involve children as well. Thankfully at this point, the kids are actually taken into custody and to protective custody because they're living, living under that same roof.

1:28:24 So they cannot live there with with Steve. So they're taken under protective custody at this point when they literally the police officer walks over to Josh at the house in this moment and says to him, look, we're going to take the kids into protective custody. This is hit. The kids can't live here. According to this police officer, Josh did not hug his children goodbye. Nothing. He had no had no emotion whatsoever to that information. So I was just, I'd be like, like. Fuck, you're taking my kids away.

1:28:54 Oh, I mean if you take. My dad away. Take him away. Oh my God, that's gross. I don't wanna know about that. That's I mean, that's awful. But my kids all look after them. Did you find any content? Related to my children in there, is there something more I need to be looking into? Like but no SO. We can get in a little bit here to the children. So obviously Charlie and Brayden were very young when Susan disappeared, but there were there were psychologists were interviewed, the children and things and carefully had conversations with them.

1:29:23 So Charlie particularly so he was the older of the two boys and he in one interview with a police officer psychologist, she asked him, you know, about his mum and do you talk about mum at home? And his answer to that was, we don't talk about Susan or camping. I keep all the secrets. Oh, this? Poor little boy now not. Only the two parts of that that kill me. The first one is that he calls her Susan. That is awful. The fact that that's how she is being referenced around those boys and they've obviously been.

1:30:03 Told not to call her mom. Well, I don't even know. If it's been told not to, but they're conditioned not to as in I think because to me, like because she's not there the the all the conversations about mom aren't you know, your mom loves you very much. You know, no matter where she is, she loves you and it's not being called mom. She's not being called mom. It's conversations between adults. Susan, Susan left you. Susan does that. Susan did this, Susan this. So it's not she's not being referenced as mom and the care, the caring person who she was is being removed from their memories.

1:30:32 Then it's disgusting. Oh God, so the police. Did so along with this psychologist. When they interviewed Charlie, he confirmed that the camping trip in the middle of the night took play with Joshua took place. However, he also stated that Susan went with them but didn't come home with them. A few weeks after Susan disappeared, a teacher, his teacher, who's she's interviewed a lot, actually, I think she quite likes the spotlight. But she said. That he has said to her that he knows his mom is dead and the when Brayden was interviewed.

1:31:15 Now given Brayden's two years younger, I think he was barely three at this point, not quite three. He drew a picture of a van with three people in it and told the psychologist who was with him Mummy was in the trunk. Now. When they forensically investigated the van they they didn't really find a lot. It had been cleaned and there is CCTV footage of Josh cleaning the van on the way home from the camping trip. They also found when they were doing a forensic investigation of the house. Now mind you it's worth we already know this, that the couch had been cleaned.

1:31:57 Now, Josh had also, a week or two before this board, a Rug Doctor. Who the fuck buys a Rug Doctor? You go and buy one from the supermarket if you really need one. Yeah. Anyway, he'd bought 1 because, you know, he bought anything he wanted whenever he wanted it. Yeah, and he had used the Rug Doctor to. Well, According to him, he asked Susan the night before she disappeared to at 10:00 PM before she went to bed. Could you just clean the couch? Because it was really grotty with the kids boogers. I didn't mean the woman that.

1:32:28 Was was sick and well and had to go to bed. Really. Yeah, sure. Yeah, she. She decided to clean it at 10:00 that night. Yeah. And that's why it was wet. And so Josh had to set up the fans to make sure it didn't grow mildew. The other thing we. Might just go back a little bit on before we move to this next stage. Sure. Is that the his brother Michael? Oh yes. So Elena and Michael obviously in Washington and she's disappeared in Utah. They were, they did visit when this first happened a couple of times they did visit.

1:33:00 But on the second trip, they made across to to Utah. On the way back from there, Michael's car mysteriously breaks down. Now they've sort of midway between Washington and and Utah at this point. So, and when I say breakdown, like, yeah, it's fixable, I guess. I don't know. We don't really know. According to Michael, his car broke down. So he could have had that car then towed somewhere locally, but instead he chose to tow it. So far away. To a particular place where that car needed to be destroyed.

1:33:34 It was in so his words were at the time was that you know Oh no, it was completely done. It was you know unfixable. It needs to get get destroyed. Not just like gone to The Wreckers pay someone to pick it up and take it off to a wreckers like kind of thing like picked apart parts used for various things. No, no, destroyed. Why?

1:33:54 Why? So the cops did get wind of this and so they went out because what happened? He actually contacted a company to do a drone photo over the top of this wreckers what to check that it had been destroyed yet really weird. So the cops got hold of this information and went we need to go out to this place and find out what's going on here. So they go out there and they took with them cadaver dogs who could spell obviously decomposing bodies, and they let them loose in this entire massive yard and we're talking.

1:34:34 Like a massive wreck yard. Like a massive wreck yard literally within. Minutes they went directly straight over to Michael's car and alerted. So the police then test this and they did find, yes, evidence of DNA in the carpet of the boot, I believe, or something. That's right. It was in the boot, Yeah. Now unfortunately though, when they looked at it close up, yes, there was definitely DNA there, but not enough to get a match of matching that say to Susan say there. I don't know how that works, but no I think.

1:35:11 It had been cleaned, I think that was what it was. So the dogs alerted to obviously a scent, which is OK, That's that's great. Yeah. But when they went to then try and get the evidence, they weren't able to gather enough usable DNA because I believe they'd use bleach or something that had degraded the DNA to the point. Yeah, to a point where they. Couldn't actually get a full. Profile, right, that's it, yeah. So another, another red flag if nothing else, that just putting it out there potentially that Michael was part of this knowledge of this too and maybe moved the body or Steve.

1:35:45 Used Michael's car for something, maybe that's. Possible too, but this car certainly wasn't an issue when. Josh drove this 800 miles in the rental car for 20 hours and Steve disappeared for the same 20 hours. We don't know how Steve got to wherever. He got two others. So I'm like, has he, have they transported Susan's body? We don't know. We actually don't know. But that's what that's the actual, that's fact of what has. Occurred. So real odd, real strange. So just putting that in there, as well as information that occurred prior.

1:36:21 Yeah. So we're back here where we've got Steve arrested. Susan's still missing. Josh has had the boys removed from him at this point, and so they go to court on this. Now at this point, thankfully, the the the courts do place them in the custody of The Cox Family. So with Judy and Chuck Susan's parents. However, the courts decide that Josh is a which I use formal terms of what our legal system here will use. Good enough. I use inverted commas. He's a good enough parent. And because he attends to the children, he feeds them, he shows up on time, you know, genuine bare minimums that he's a good enough parent to have visitation with his kids at this point while they sort out who is what and all this evidence they've gathered on his dad and whether he's part of this, whatever, they've got to ascertain all these things.

1:37:21 So. And simple fact of the matter is, he's a prime suspect in a disappearance of his wife. Yeah. Anyway, I think the court. Then decided to impose that the visitations needed to be supervised, yes, so the visitation. Had to be supervised. Now, the supervisions did occur originally in a facility, yeah, which is what they are meant to happen if they're supervised. However, they were the parent. The other people who were visiting children in this facility didn't like Josh being there. He this was a really well known yes situation in the area and people were commenting and saying I don't want him around my children.

1:37:58 Like because of the situation of like who his dad was and what that was going on with, that he shouldn't be here. He shouldn't be around children in full stop. Shock horror that really like general people, people who also have to have visitation of their children, acknowledge that this dude shouldn't have visitation with his children. That says a lot to me. Yeah, I'll get really, really, really pissed about this shit. So it was taking place in the facility, but at a point they went, well, this isn't working.

1:38:23 Other people don't want him here, so they moved it from there to being elsewhere. But we'll come back to that. So obviously, this is all playing out in terms of Steve and what's been found in his house. And in that situation, what was found was on a computer that belonged to Josh was animated child pornography. Now, animated child pornography is a grey area a little bit legally in terms of what that means because real children aren't involved. Where does it land in terms of legally what you, what you should or shouldn't have of that in your possession?

1:38:57 Ethically fucked, yes. Legally grey, yeah. So a psychology they do. The courts basically decide that small psychological assessments need to be done. And a psychologist, he, when he got wind of this, he was doing assessments already on Josh. And at this point when he got wind of that fact that this information was on a computer that he owned, he said that's a deal breaker for him in terms of the kids. So what he wanted then was a full psychosexual analysis and evaluation of Josh, which includes A polygraph.

1:39:28 And in that polygraph he can be asked anything. So that. Meant that he what was on the table now is that he could be hooked up to a polygraph and asked direct questions about Susan's disappearance. Now turns out the porn that was on his computer actually wasn't his that pornography had been put on. So that computer had been purchased actually by Susan what like a long time ago second hand and it was provable that porn had actually been put on that computer. Before he even owned it. So it was way, way deep, deep down in there.

1:40:05 However, computers work. I don't know, but that was actually proven that it wasn't his. However, it was enough for them to say we need more information about this at the time of like Nah. So the kids are obviously in temporary custody with Judy and Chuck and they're having supervised visitations with with Josh until this assessment is done. And he is now under the the pump because this polygraph I think really gave him a gave him a real spun it's worth. Noting as well, the supervision of these visitations was done with their social worker.

1:40:42 So it's not like it was Judy doing the supervision or Chuck doing the supervision. It was with a a court appointed social worker. Yeah. And. And with all this going on in terms of like the visitations meant to be happening at a facility, but then changing to being at Josh's house with it, but still supervised. Chuck was actually jumping up and down in the background saying, I am seeing signs here of similar things that Susan was raising around Josh's personality and what was going on for him prior to her disappearance.

1:41:14 He actually said that to police officers, social workers, courts. He was he went to everyone. He was concerned. Very, very, very, very, very concerned. He literally could not have done anymore. I really want to say that I feel he he was. So explicit in what he said as well. Yeah. It's like Josh's behaviours are escalating. I am very concerned that Josh is going to hurt the children. Mm Hmm. I am very concerned that Josh is going to hurt himself. Yeah, not that. I mean, you know, at the end of the day, who cares if he hurts himself?

1:41:45 But he was saying something's going to happen. Like, yeah, we're getting somewhere. This. Is this isn't OK? This isn't OK the. Fact of what's been. Put on him of like you might not get your kids back if this sexual analysis comes back with stuff. If this polygraph comes back with stuff you may lose your children. Could be a trigger of some sort. I don't feel like it was. The children not. I don't feel like it was losing the children that was his motivation here. I feel like it was more that he was going to be fully exposed.

1:42:15 Fully exposed. Yeah. So we're here. We're here. I've I've been avoiding it, if you noticed. Yeah, OK. So much so this is. Super Bowl Sunday, February 5th, 2012. Josh wakes up, he goes to the bank, gets out some money, goes and buys gasoline.

1:42:39 He's then got a visit with his boys in his home. Now at this point he had moved, had actually moved out obviously so they can have these visitations as we're not at Steve's house. He had rented a property just down the road from his dad's house. Fucking get away from that. Get the fuck away. From him, so he. Rented this house just down the road from Steve's place so he had his own place there and in this house he had like a toy room for the kids. Set up a bunch of their toys and everything. Not a lot of furniture.

1:43:06 Not a lot of homey stuff, no. You know, I guess it was a new rental. He didn't have a lot of things to fill it. In the days prior to this, he'd actually gone to a hardware store and he'd bought an Acetylene torch. When he went to this hardware store to buy the, the torch, he, the hardware store staff commented on how weird he was and so much so that they were like, oh mate, what do you, what do you need in Acetylene torch for? And he's like, oh, you know, I just want to see how it works and, and oh, you know, I've never used one before.

1:43:45 So I just thought I'd, I'd give it a go. He bought all of the connections, the tanks, everything that you need. And then he, I mean, this just goes to show his hubris as well, because he went to this shop at say closed at 5, right? He went there at 4:50, spent 45 minutes harassing the staff about let's make sure they. Remember you? Yeah. You know what? I'm like an idiot. Like he's just. That's what I'm saying. The hubris is just so he ends up buying this torch. Eventually he gets home and he tries to connect it all together, like you need special lines or something to connect the tank to the torch part and he hadn't bought the right connectors.

1:44:27 And because this shops now shut, he goes to Lowe's like the local hardware store which was open till say 6 or whatever time. And they're like, you've actually bought the wrong tank, has the wrong connections. So he's then pissed off because he then has to go and buy these new tanks and have them then filled with the Acetylene and all of that sort of stuff. So he's gone to a lot of trouble to have these this Acetylene torch in good working order, Continue. Oh God. So the social worker who was a 65 year old woman, she was instructed to pick the boys up from Judy and Chuck's house and drive them over to Josh's.

1:45:13 So they're driving over and she said that the boys were very happy and very keen to see their dad, which was lovely. So she said they got out of the car, she parked the car at the front, got out of the car and walked down the driveway and got to the front door. You know, the boys are very excited and very jittery and these, these boys were very boisterous boys, very active boys. So and Josh has come to the door and immediately said to the boys, I've got something really special for you. I've got a surprise for you and let the boys in through the door and they've run in.

1:45:40 Oh my God, Dad's got a surprise for us, you know, and then he's slammed the door in the social workers face and not let her in the house. Now this is. Against the court order, she had to be in full view of those children at all times, Yeah. So he's in the house with the two children and she's stuck outside. She's banging on the door trying to get access. He's it's locked. She's not able to get in that house, so rightly so she rings 911 now. This 911 call absolutely kills me. Oh, same. Oh my God.

1:46:14 I do hope that that 911 dispatcher is not in that job anymore. Oh, they couldn't be. Couldn't be. So she look, she she's a bit frustrating too, because she doesn't know the address and she gets a bit like she's, she's flustered, very flustered, but she's panicking, yeah. And social worker is panicking. Yes. And so in this 911 call, she says, you know that this is the situation. I'm, I'm meant to be here supervising his visit, his visit, but he's shut the door and I'm stuck outside. This fucking 911 caller is like, who's there to visit?

1:46:44 But who's there to supervise if you're having the visit? It's like, fuck me. Fucking listen. Listen, this gets really like she's like, she can't find the address, you know, like, which I'm like, you just pulled up to the address. Please just like get the number, get the, get the straight address because he's like, I can't, can't send anyone until you tell me where you are. And she's like, well, can't you just, you know, track me, track my phone. And he's like, no, it doesn't work like that. Like it's like, Oh my God, just freaking start sending people like because then she says I can smell gasoline.

1:47:12 And I've just heard one of the boys scream by this stage. She has gone to her car because she had to get the the. Address and stuff, right? She's like it was her notebook and. Everything was in the car, plus she could smell gas. For fuck's sake, She actually I. Think she even says I need to move my car, I need to move away. Move away, yeah. So the other one that ultimately really this gets me when the dispatcher says to her, she goes, so is someone on their way and he says, look, they'll be there, but they need to attend to emergencies like life threatening situations first.

1:47:45 Oh my fucking I just can't. I think I. Think in that 911 call, though, she is absolutely conveying that she needs someone there now. It's not like she's like, oh look, the kids have gone inside and I just can't get in. She is panicked. She's like, no, no, what you don't give a life for in the situation. Exactly. I am in fear. Of those children's lives, something is Josh Powell. She keeps saying to him and and she knows. That name and. He has no way. How do you who that is? No, he's like, sorry, so.

1:48:13 How do you spell that noise? This guy is flashed over the news. He is known at this area. This is a known story of what's going on and breaking stuff. But as we were talking about the mushroom lady, like, you know, Aaron Patterson, everyone knows that name. It's like that kind of level of, you know, notoriety of this case. And she's like, it's Josh Powell. He's, you know, they think that he killed his wife. Like she's saying all this on the phone and he is just not reacting. Oh, I'll be there. So he does eventually fucking dispatch people and they do get there.

1:48:41 However, already the house is a lot and fire is coming out of the house. Now we're. Talking an initial explosion so it was enough to alert neighbors and enough to really like people were making these 911 phone calls as soon as they heard the noise because it would have been extraordinary. So we're talking a gas explosion, basically. And can you even imagine? So the social worker's name was Elizabeth. Can you even imagine how she must have felt in that moment? I can't I. Can't. Oh no. So in that day, Josh had first of all, in that morning, he'd sent emails out to people.

1:49:25 He'd actually called Elena and left a voicemail message on her phone. And again, you can hear that that message. I still, I don't, I don't feel any compassion for him whatsoever. But in that voicemail message, I find his tone even still not genuine, even though what he did like it was he was absolutely going to do what he was saying. I just still don't find anything he says genuine. So the way he speaks in that voicemail message is that, you know, I've just, he'll actually say the words I'm going to kill myself or anything like that.

1:49:56 He just says I can't do this. I, I, he doesn't admit to anything. It doesn't even bring up Susan, her name. It's not even like, you know, he goes, I'm sorry for what I've done, but he doesn't say for hurting Susan or any of that. Her name is never mentioned. He just says I can't live without my boys now. So he's basically inferring he knows that he's going to lose the boys if he goes through with this evaluation and polygraph. Well, why would you lose your boys if you go through with that? What?

1:50:24 What's going to come out? What are you? Afraid of? What are you afraid of, actually? Coming out of that, because I don't think it's actually losing your boys. No, that's where I just don't find any genuine. It's absolutely not. So he doesn't confess, obviously doesn't even mention her. But the fairly lengthy message he leaves around the fact of like, I can't leave anymore. He sent emails off to a few people as well, sort of saying that he was going to, you know, that he was going to end his life.

1:50:48 But that's really it. This killed me. Poor Chuck obviously got the phone call from again, Alice Marshall, Alice Maxwell who got in touch with him saying you know, this is what's going on. And so Chuck when I want to go. So he made sure. So this Alice was just such a beautiful. He made sure that Chuck was escorted with police to get there, which they knew was too late. Like they knew that this was all done and dusted, but he wanted to be there so they were going to get him there. So they took him to go and see he Chuck said he walked up to the house, which was still a blaze and still trying to get this fire out.

1:51:23 And he said he just knew immediately there was no chance those boys were coming home to him, which he just said like that was just beyond. Oh, what? You just, I mean, he'd already lost his daughter and his last piece to her. That's right. They were his last connection to her. So Josh, in my mind, did this as a vindictive sort of last case if he wasn't going to have. Those boys, no one was going to have them. It's one about him wanting them because that no one else have them. That's right. That's.

1:51:56 Exactly what I was about to say, because he, I don't think he gave a shit, would have given a shit whether he saw the boys again or not, but he didn't want anyone else to have them either. So he wanted to inflict the most, absolutely the most pain on Susan's family, and he's absolutely done that because he has now wiped out the two most precious things to her and the two most precious things to Susan's family that they had and the connection that they had still had to her. These poor little innocent boys, they did nothing, No.

1:52:32 So that vile sack of shit, he didn't just put the house on fire. So what happened when he closed that door to that front door? Those boys ran giddily, happily into their playroom, thinking Dad had to surprise them something lovely for these toys. The only thing that they had in the majority of the house was these toys for these boys ran in there thinking they were getting surprised. He attacked them with some sort of axe or pick. Yeah, it was a. Yeah. The Hatchet. Or something, they weren't sure exactly.

1:53:06 What the tool was, but there was definitely, there was definitely injuries to the children that inferred this, that there was this attack on them first before they were they, they died and they were found on the floor in the in the room holding hands. So. But The thing is, that's not what caused their death. So that the three. Of them, the cause of death for the three of them was carbon monoxide poisoning. It wasn't Even so he attacked them like for no reason. I I just like carbon. Monoxide poisoning I think is actually quite a peaceful way to go, so you pass out.

1:53:45 Before you know what's going on, what's happening, he could. Have just done. That Yep, I mean none of it. He should have none of it. I don't want to but but why the violence have the? Constants. Yep, I. Oh, I just can't with that. That just absolutely kills me. You couldn't. How do you do that to your own children? You have no emotion? No soul to be able to do that. No, not a human. Being not a human being, so the only. Advocate that Josh has is Elena she vehemently supports him as not being a monster to this day which.

1:54:22 I just whereas Jennifer his other sister so as soon. As Susan went. Missing. She knew it was Josh. Yeah. Yeah, and she feels. Guilty for the fact that he killed the boys because she said I should have known that this is where it was going. Yeah. It's not her fault. No, this is only Josh's fault. Absolutely. Yeah, so following this absolute, well, he's a family annihilator. He's annihilated her family. It's just awful. So after this though Steve does go to trial for his so he ends up being like charged with I think it was like 1 count of child pornography, one count of voyeurism.

1:55:06 Like it was just one counts of things. I think he was actually sentenced to like 10 years but he only ended up serving 05. Yeah, somewhere around that. Yeah, he came out of jail after those years and he went to like a halfway house ish kind of place. I'm sorry he's served. Nearly six years. Nearly six years. So he. Was released on the. 11th of July in 2017, yeah. So he would, not long after being released, suffered a heart attack and died. So that's all we really need to say about him. Although the police were like pretty keen to have a chat with him again to see if he could because obviously no longer they could get information from Josh around what happened to Susan.

1:55:47 They were hoping that maybe at this point, knowing that Josh was not around anymore, that maybe Steve would fess up as to what went on, but they didn't get to him in time. So they did hear that, oh, he's had a heart attack. So they actually went to the hospital. They directed themselves there to go and speak to him, but they didn't get there in time before he passed away. So unfortunately didn't get any deathbed, you know, confession or anything, or anything out of him, which is a bit sad. Again, following on after that in February 12th 2013, Michael his Josh's brother committed suicide interestingly so he jumped off a roof and plummeted to his death.

1:56:27 Unfortunately, there's video footage, CCTV footage of him getting to an A lift on his own goes up to the top to the roof and the next thing he's and people witnessed him coming off the roof. Elena to this day believes he was pushed. There's no one else up there,

1:56:49 which is interesting. So I mean, between all of that. So the police have closed Susan's case. They know they're not looking for other suspects with the the information that they basically say that they believe Josh did something Josh, Josh hurt her, she killed her. And quite possibly either, if not both Michael and Steve moved to her body. I've heard allegations of maybe Josh handed her body over to Steve to do what he wanted to do with that. I've read about that. Too. That's an interesting. I mean, look, look at how depraved he was.

1:57:30 I that makes me feel absolutely ill. But you know what? I I can't discount that in my mind, no. No, which is such a? Fucked up thing to say. So Michael was quoted as saying to police that even if I did know something, I wouldn't tell you. So there was definitely some evidence around that he potentially at least new stuff if not was not didn't partake in things. Also to note, just going coming up to Michael committing suicide, there was a private detective and I don't know who had employed this private detective.

1:58:03 It could have been interested citizens. It's not Chuck. It's not The Cox Family. But someone was paying a detective to surveil him. And this person was apparently getting close to getting some information. And that's potentially why he was pushed to a point where he jumped off the roof. Maybe. Maybe.

1:58:26 Yeah. So unfortunately we don't have answers to a lot of this. But one thing I will just say in Steve's journals, he wrote on Tuesday the 8th of December. So the day after she disappeared, really like that. You know, that following day at 5:35 AM he wrote this, he documented to that extent. So this is body early in the morning on that. This is the day that he that within that 20 hours of them disappearing, right? He wrote his journal that Josh would have disposed of her body in some grotesque way.

1:59:03 Maybe he took her and cremated her in an industrial site. What the? Fuck. He also believed that Josh It wrote in the same journal that he was Josh was probably he wanted to do it his way and avoid a messy and costly divorce

1:59:25 all Josh. Cared about and this came through in all of his little fucking weird video journals was money. Everything was about money. Yeah, he even. Bragged. In one of his police interviews, how there was some restaurant near where they lived and he could feed the entire family for 4 bucks, 70 on a particular day where they had like and he was able to use, you know, he was so clever. He was so clever. He could feed his whole family for $4.70. What a piece of shit. You know he's. Such a. Fucking piece of shit.

1:59:57 He did not care about Susan. He did not care about those beautiful little boys. I think that in. Some way, I mean, I think ultimately Steve is whether he had a hand in this or not, I do think he's ultimately responsible because he he had these children grow up in a world where they had no sense of normality of like what compassion is or, you know, exposing them to violent pornography. Under the age of. Age. That changes. That changes your brain. Chemistry. That kind of. It literally does, Yeah. So.

2:00:35 Yeah. And Josh, yes, there was a lot, you know, I think he there was a lot undiagnosed in him as well. But all of those things are things that people live with each and every day and don't end up murdering their wife and murdering their children. I, I can't even, I can't even imagine how somebody would get to the point that he has. I think you're right. I think there's definitely childhood issues there. But at the end of the day, he grew up into an adult and he made decisions that fucking ruined so many lives.

2:01:11 I think the way he killed his children is I can't. It actually makes me feel physically I'll to even I can't, I can't go there. Because. It's so it's unfathomable that somebody could inflict that kind of harm on their own children. I can't even no how Susan died. I can't. I don't even want to think about it. Yeah. I mean I. Can only hope to be honest that there was like a poison say in that food and that she went in some way peacefully because I mean it. Unfortunately, the cleanup that occurred in that couch area infers maybe not so well.

2:01:57 That's right. Because they found blood very tiny. Little, very tiny little of the blood which were. Proven to be Susan, yeah. That doesn't prove. That like she would. Cut her finger in the kitchen. That's right. Weeks earlier. Who knows? You don't know, but yeah, you know all of these signs point. To what was potentially violent and for her to but in. All of this I always, I go back to Alina and think of like what her life has been to get her to this point where she's so misinformed around her own family.

2:02:29 Her her take on all of this is so morphed into something that, like, to be the only person on his planet, basically, who believes that her family are innocent and says something. Yeah, but she's got to have experienced an awful lot of shit in her life. Absolutely. And I wonder whether, like, I think she had a real hatred for Susan. And I do think, you know, morbidly as it is, I think that she was jealous of Susan and the attention her dad gave her. Yeah, I think you're right. So I think that she has the trauma that she has experienced is beyond what anyone should ever experience.

2:03:09 So I watch her. She is on some documentaries and does vehemently have her, her opinion heard. And that can I take that on, on face value, I'm like angry at her, but under the surface it's like. Experience you're the trauma. That has got you to that belief is absolutely awful. I have nothing but compassion and empathy for her. That I, I, I can only hope that one day a psychologist spends a hell of a lot of time with her and works with her and gets her to a place of, I don't know, peace with all of this.

2:03:44 I don't know. I don't know if that's possible. I don't know. I don't think it is, but. What a life to you. Know that's exactly that's who your family is and she's put her face out there and I mean not by her choice probably initially, but you know it does now speak up for her family, you know and wants to do that. So but that's how would have life she's led to get to here with that. The only positive out of any of this was that so Susan was obviously buried where her family chose for her to be buried.

2:04:12 And when the boys passed away, they were placed in a placed next to her in one in one plot. And that left obviously a plot either side of Susan and her boys that Josh was going to be buried in. But thankfully, very quickly, the public and a lot of police officers donated money and bought those two plots either side of them to ensure that there was no way in hell he would be buried next to them. And so congratulations and well done to the public and those police officers who donated to that, because that was a very worthy cause.

2:04:50 100 I would have. Thrown money shit. Should not be anywhere near those people. I'm so glad they did that. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, this? Has. Been an awful one. Horrible. If you want to know more detail about this case so one I would really highly recommend people look at is the long form podcast called. Agreed that. Was. Why don't you you direct me to that? Yeah, quite a few years ago now and it hard to listen to it. You need to take your time. It's a it's a long fall. I think there's. Like maybe 16 or 17 episodes, something like that.

2:05:22 I mean, the core, the core content might be about 10 episodes. But it's definitely worth a listen. Or you want to know more information, And I'm talking really in depth information. Yeah, it is hard to listen to, so maybe space it out a bit. Yeah, the time to be able to do some episodes. Where it gets real hard, yeah. But yeah, it's very well produced and very respectful. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We, we know that covering cases like this can be really, really tough. So if this one's been a tough one for you to listen to, please reach out for support, you know, in Australia, reach out to Lifeline or Beyond Blue.

2:05:57 And if not, seek assistance in, in whatever country you're listening from, because, I mean, I've found this one a really tough one. You obviously have as well. And the reason we do these cases is to a keep the memory alive of those people who who suffered and the victims in this case. But it's also to raise awareness. And you know, there are people like this out there, unfortunately, this family. Dynamic exists. This is not. They're not. They're not, unfortunately, the power family, unfortunately the only family who function this way.

2:06:35 They exist, but not only that. Domestic violence is so prevalent only in Australia, but worldwide. One in three women across the across the world experience domestic violence in some form of another. We're not saying everyone's going to necessarily be murdered by this. No, we can tell that. But it's what she was. Experiencing prior to even being murdered but was not OK no. And if you are experiencing any of that control is it's not OK. So yeah, reach out 1800 respect in Australia because we need to speak up.

2:07:05 I mean, her friends were trying and obviously she was making attempts, but we need to get these people out safely and get everyone the help they need. And if we get to a point where that isn't needed, that we don't need to be looking out for friends for these shit, that would be great too. Yes, please. Yes, please, that world. Would be lovely to live in. Yeah. And finally. And finally. All right, what case are we covering next week? Oh, crap. Oh. Charlie Murdoch Yeah, we're doing so we're. Doing the Joanne lease and Peter Falconio case, yes.

2:07:37 So that's kind of taking a bit of a different tactic, which is probably a good thing. No kids involved. So yeah, please join us next week. Thank you for listening. We really, really appreciate it. Don't forget to like us on all the socials. Come and follow us over on Tiktok and Instagram mostly. That's where we get most of our engagement. Sheriff's with a friend. That's the best. Thing you can actually do, share us with a friend. We really appreciate it, absolutely. Stay curious, crime besties. Bye.