Episode 49 - Caylee and Casey Anthony

0:16 Hey, 2 crime besties, welcome to another episode. Here we go. This one's a big one too it. Is it's really big. My brain's exploding with this one and like passionately as well. Like I'm like, I think we could get a bit fired up with this one. I. Feel like we're going to however, yeah this has this case has completely fucked with my mind. Oh, I am all over the show as to what my thoughts are in this. But I think that's that's almost what she wants. Yeah, yeah. But does she? No, it's it's crazy. And I don't actually really even know what I believe.

0:50 So at the end of the episode, look, maybe I'll form some opinions as we discuss because you and I have not discussed. We started to the other day and I was like, we cannot talk about this because we need to save it for the recording. But yeah, it is. Oh, it's mental. Yeah. Completely mental. Yeah, we're talking today about Casey Anthony, but more specifically as I think it needs to be brought back to Kaylee Anthony. That's right. Oh yeah. Like this one is, it's huge. It was huge in the America. An absolutely huge in America.

1:19 And I've always like I'd known about this case. I'd heard bits about it. I'd never deep dived any of it. I'd never listened to any other podcasts on this topic. It's only what I've picked from media bits and pieces that I knew about it. Oh my. God, I'd now that I do maybe a short form podcast or so like an episode about it, but I not in any depth at all. Yeah. And Oh my, as you said, Oh my God. Anyway, before we get into it, yeah, it'd be remiss of us not to have a bit of a chat about the week and see how things are going.

1:49 How are you? I'm great, especially when I see you bring in a big hole from the door. You can. Get those deliveries here. I love. It every Friday they probably think, I mean I've got a bit of a shopping problem probably, but every Friday we get something delivered, don't we? You do. It's great. Yeah. I love it. So today was a she in order. I think I said to you I'm like I'm not really sure how $2.00 plus $2.00 + 4 dollars plus $8 equals $260.00 but here we are Yeah. Yeah. But we've got, you know, several celebrations coming up in the family, and I just went to town a bit because, you know, things are only $4.00 and you're like, Oh yeah, I'll have four of those and seven of those, so.

2:30 Cheap, can't afford not to buy it. That what exactly? And then you get those coupons and 50% off this and 100% off that. I don't love that. Yeah, that ran like 100% off. It's like. What? Yeah, it's really not No. Ohh. What?

2:48 I love the way they scam you in that shit. It's just like, oh, I'm going to fall for it anyway, yeah. You were saying that you have that same problem when you go to Kmart, you pick up a couple of things and you think it's going to be like $10 when you get to the cat. Food I'm a shocker in Kmart, like I'm the home W shit. I love that stuff though enough, weirdly enough. And you're going to absolutely lose it over this. So you know me. I'm not into candles, no, turns out which one. So since we've now been and done that candles, we may went to candle workshop and made our own candles.

3:19 I'm now like, I think I need candles like burning in my house. What? I thought I'd just start with some cheaper ones, like in terms of like the Kmart ones and buying a few of those and I like them at home and stuff. I know who am I? I don't know. I don't know anymore. Sorry, who the fuck are you and what have you done? With. With my two crime besties, I there is a candle at the minute at Kmart that I absolutely love. I think you've you would have smelled it. I think I actually had it burning when we were recording last week.

3:46 Oh, that wood it one it was. It's got like a wood Wick, which I love because it kind of actually sounds like a bit like an open fire. Because I've got a a wood Wick one that I'm sitting with me because I'm still not I'm I'm not a fait with candles yet. I'm still learning. OK, right that I've got a really sure what. You need to learn. I don't know either, but this is where I'm like, do I need to know more about this? Because I've got this really beautiful country Rd. candle that smells divine when I like smell it, but I haven't.

4:12 It's a Woodwick 1. And so I'm like, I think I need to burn others and like get better at burning candles before I light that one because it's obviously a better one. I don't know. Seriously. I know. I really don't. I don't know. I don't, I don't know what I'm doing. Well, give it a go with these Woodwick ones, I think maybe. I feel like it's maybe $12.00 or something from Kmart. Yeah, yeah. And it's. Look, it's a soy blend candle, so we know after doing our candle making, you don't wanna soy blend more.

4:38 But it's citrus and mint, and it is. Oh, I probably can't burn that in my house then. Fresh in oh, you wouldn't be able to use it. You wouldn't be able to when the case is home, but maybe you're not when they're not when they're not there. You're gonna go? I'm gonna have to go to Kmart. Sorry, doll. Spend another $200. Yeah, buy a. Candle and $12.00 candle. Yeah, twist my arm. Seriously. Yeah, if only their clothes section was better. But the homeware stuff I'm always I. Find their clothes can be a bit hit and.

5:08 Miss, hit and miss. There's like at times you'll get something good and then you'll get. Fuck all, yeah, And there's not great stuff, yeah, but there's people. I follow a few people on Instagram who do Kmart's try on hauls. And you always look good in those. They're like, great. And then you go in and get it and you're like, but it's all out of shape. And it's not, it's not quite. It's not gonna wash well. No. Yeah, the kids. Stuff it's fine, yes. I don't actually don't mind a bit of Kmart kids stuff.

5:32 I think their quality is pretty reasonable. I actually find that their T-shirts are good. I find that Kmart are the target ones, the cheap ones, you wash them and they go like off centre or something, whereas the Kmart ones do hold up. Well, that's true. But yeah, but they, I don't know, the adults clothing's a bit. Yeah, just say it's it's hitting me. It's big time. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I do. Love me a bit of Kmart. But yeah, she ends one where I've fallen down that rabbit hole before and I've spanned myself.

5:57 Now I'm like, no, don't go there. I was telling you about my first ever Sheen order. Yes, this was years ago. I feel like it was during COVID actually. You were onto them early? Yeah. Or was that early? I don't even know. But I bought a T-shirt and it was this lovely T-shirt. I still remember it. It was white T-shirt with like rainbow confetti polka dots on it. So stunning. Love it, loved it. It came and it would not have even fit on a standard size doll.

6:28 I love that. Worst $8 I've ever spent.

6:32 So I haven't. I haven't bought clothes from there again. No, I love that when you emailed them back just sort of go, hey, what the deal? They just blocked. They blocked my number my my e-mail address so I couldn't even contact them. Don't complain to us now, yeah? You get what you pay for, they're fine, whatever. Oh God, I love that. I mean yeah, as I said to you, I've done the the full, the Shay and Hall and I had like 5 items and out of the five I kept one. I feel like one out of five ain't bad, although how much did you pay for the other 5?

7:01 I feel like it was under $100 for $5. So, but then so now that's cost you $100 for one T-shirt or did you? No, no, no, I, I returned OK and look that was that process was pretty easy. But apparently like for your first one, you get that for free to return. But I I think from then on you have to pay for returns. I think from I vaguely remember reading that kind of going right. Well, this is it. Because if only one out of five hit, then I'm not going to risk it again because the other ones they are.

7:25 It wasn't like the items I got them and went, oh, no, it is a bit tighter than I thought or something. They were like, not what you ordered. What I ordered. Like as in the material was disgusting and right. Yeah, it was never going to. Look good. It wasn't going to be good, No. I introduced a friend this week to the joys of shopping through The Iconic. So the Iconic have all good brands and stuff. Great. And they often have like really good sales, yes, but they also do free 30 day returns. So I've so I've done this.

7:53 I've ordered a few dresses for my party. Order like 2 sizes or. Something. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you just return it and you get your money back. Yeah. It's just such an easy way to shop. It's inconvenient. I do like that and the iconic. Iconic is good for that. Like for that for shoes, because I actually don't like, I don't like shopping online for shoes. I've got wide feet. I need to better put my foot in them. But at least with there you can order, you know, a size or two of them and then go no.

8:15 Well, I'd want these ones, not those ones in return for nothing. Like, it's such a good business. It is well done. The iconic. Yeah. You wanna sponsors? Go for it, be happy. Anyone. Anyone. At this stage, we'll take it.

8:33 We're not desperate. Actually, Speaking of which, we had a really lovely person buy us a coffee today, this week. So if anybody would like to buy us a coffee, they can do, you can do so via Buy Me a coffee.com/two Crime Besties from Terry Shannon who bought us a coffee. So thank you so much Terry. We really appreciate the support. It doesn't, it doesn't go unnoticed with us that people have actually put they're hard earned money and decided to buy us a coffee with it. So thank you. So grateful. Thank you very much.

9:08 We really appreciate all of our listeners. All of them. Fantastic. But yeah, people particularly that go that extra mile and and do that for us, it's really fabulous 'cause it makes it all worthwhile. Absolutely. And if not, if you can't buy us a coffee or if that's not, you know, up your ally, totally fine. If you can click us a like or a subscribe, those things go. More And like, tell your friends about us. Spread the word. That's even as equally as good as a coffee. Yeah. Well, for us on Tiktok, we've been getting some good traction over there.

9:35 So yeah, the more we build up that base, the better it is too. The comments section in the Tiktoks at the moment is really I, I love getting in there. Oh. That's great. And feel like people are getting more like are more engaged on that platform as opposed to like we don't get that many comments really on our Instagram posts or anything like that. But definitely on Tiktok, we're seeing that coming through. So thank you to everybody who's engaging over there. Love this. It's good. Yeah. Yeah. Very good.

10:01 Should we get into the episode? Let's let's really dive in because oh wow, we've got a lot to discuss and I really, I'm so keen to hear your perspective on things and on this one and like. I don't know. So when I normally research, my general pattern of what I do is at the start of the week, I really listen to as many things as I can, watch what I can, and then sort of towards maybe Tuesday, Wednesday night, we always record on a Friday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday night. I'll then write my notes.

10:32 Yeah, because that's how I sort of organize all of that information in my head. And I'll go back over things that I'm wasn't quite sure of or things I wanted to find out more information about. This case I have I couldn't do. That because. There was just so much and there's so many different accounts of all these different things that have happened. So I actually ended up just doing what you normally do. And I got out like a note in my phone, a note, the note app in my phone. And I've just, as I was hearing things, I'm literally writing like notes to prompt my memory.

11:02 Yeah. And then last night when I was looking over those, I'm like, fuck, this is so fucked up. Some of the things I've written, I'll, as we get to them, I'll let you know what I wrote down because I actually just can't even believe some of these things came out of these people's mouth. No, no, this is it. It's the the whole everyone in this is a bit fucked up and I have to admit. So from the get go, as I said earlier, I knew about this case and knew that there was, you know, that people had very strong, a strong feeling of this case and I knew that she'd been acquitted.

11:34 We can go there already that, you know, there wasn't anyone accountable for this. But, and so when I came into it going, oh, now I'm going to deep dive the case in some ways, stupidly, not knowing the concept where the case was at, I immediately went to the most recent documentary thinking that's where like the most recent thing that will have the most up to date information. But by doing that, I jumped so far ahead of myself. Well, not well ahead of the case of like knowing the like the, the sequence of events, I guess that I got into that document, the latest documentary, which is by from Casey Anthony's perspective, called where the truth lies.

12:13 Wrong name. So where the truth lies. And I immediately was already going. I don't know where I think I land on this it. I cannot. I feel exactly the same way. And I remember, like in watching that documentary, it's a 3 parter, Yeah. And each episode's like an hour and a half. So it's a decent amount of content, yes. Like I just was like what the fuck is actually going on here? My immediate reaction to the demeanor of Casey Anthony as a person is that she's such an actress. Every I do not believe a word that comes out of her mouth.

12:49 I her her alone. Sorry, don't believe anything she says. There's just a gut instinct of like you, there's something wrong. She's performing. She's performing. However, then there's other people around her that then put forward things that I go, Oh, crap. Like if you're you're an intelligent person, you're you know that I have to pay a little bit more attention to this and I do put more, you know, value in what you're saying. Yes, Yep. However, my immediate reaction to this Casey Anthony person on the screen, Speaking of me going there's something wrong with you.

13:18 I immediately then without knowing history and all of it, I went there is there is something something traumatic has happened to you as a like you don't end up being a person at that age of you know, in all of this or whatever going on. You don't end up being a person who lies the way you have lied from very young without there being something wrong with your upbringing. Childhood something, yeah. So that even then not knowing again, not knowing what what then comes out of all this going well, then then there has to be some maybe some truth in that.

13:54 But I. Don't know. I don't know. I don't know. Let's talk. It through let's let's. Get going with it. So just to for anybody who doesn't really know this case, yeah, we've basically got Casey Anthony, who had a baby. I'm just going to give like, yeah, high, high level here. Yeah. She had a baby named Kaylee at 19. At the age of 19, Kaylee went missing and was then her her skeletal remains were then found. Yeah. And Casey went to trial for the murder of her baby, of her child, of her two year. Oh, she was just three, wasn't she?

14:28 She turned 3 whilst she was missing. So, yeah. And was acquitted. So that's, that's a very high level. Very. My God, there's so much. So. Let's get it going. Let's So Casey was born to dad George Anthony, who was born in 1951, and Cindy Anthony, who was born in 1958 in They were married in 1981 in Niles, OH after work after a meeting at a hospital where Cindy had worked in So George was a police officer. At Cindy Cindy was a nurse a. Nurse yeah. And they both were throughout a lot of the goings on in in what we're going to be talking about.

15:10 So keep that in mind because I think that definitely has, it's something to keep. Something to keep in mind, particularly like so George Anthony, who was a police officer, but I do believe when they moved down to Florida, he was then working in security. He wasn't a police officer anymore. I believe for a short time and then I think he joined the police force and he became a detective. Then right, Okay, yeah. So in March of 19. So on the 19th of March in 1986, Casey Marie Anthony was born in Warren, OH the family.

15:40 She also had a brother named Lee, and the four of them made-up. You know, this fairly typical American family Lee is. Older than her, just just. Isn't he? Yeah. I think they're quite close in age, but he is older, so they've moved. They, you know, they live in a fairly typical, you know, suburban house. Quite, you know, they did reasonably OK for themselves. Like, yeah, like they were, you know, very nice neighborhood. Yeah, yeah. And really nice homes. Yeah. They had a swimming pool in their backyard, like an above ground swimming pool.

16:16 But you know, it was kind of very, I don't know, everyone, I feel like in the 80s and early 90s had, you know, had the above ground pools. It's like, you know, you don't really see them anymore, No. Or people try to decked around them or something. But yeah, I, I still remember we had a family friend who had an above ground pool. We bloody loved that thing. Climbing up the ladder and jumping in off the side. Yeah. Best, yeah. Best thing ever. And the water going over the edge, like yeah, yeah, bombed in, yeah.

16:41 Or doing the Whirlpool. Oh. Yes, I loved a Whirlpool got that is so much fun. I forgot. About about doing Whirlpool, Oh yeah, that's the best in So Casey went to Colonial High School and in 2004 she actually failed to graduate. She never actually graduated high. School, this is where like this. Still. Starts really like she yeah, she was lying to her parents about going to school. Yeah, to the point where like even when the school then called it out and called her parents and said, look, we're coming up to graduation, but Casey's not going to graduate, She hasn't been in attendance.

17:17 Casey had an explanation for her family for that, saying, Oh no, it's the school's fault, it's not mine. They messed up my scheduling and so I have been attending what I could, but because they, like, put my classes on at the same time, I couldn't get to the other class. So that's their fault, not mine. So then Mum enables this and says that's OK, we just won't tell anyone. Literally, literally no, we just won't tell anyone. We'll even still continue to hold a graduation party for you and Casey and accept all the gifts from family because graduation over there is, I reckon, a whole lot.

17:53 It's a bigger thing over there than it is here. Definitely. We had. We have American friends, Yeah. And when they graduated, they sent us these like, it was almost like a wedding invitation for the graduation invite. And the expectation is that you give them money to, like, start their college journey and all of that sort of stuff. Like 20 first, yeah. Basically. It's a really, really big deal. Yeah, really big. Deal to graduate my God high school. Yeah, but it is. Yeah. So it's not something that, I mean, we celebrated here, but not in that way.

18:24 No, not like gift giving like that. I mean, it's not. I mean, you might get a gift from your parents, something for graduating, but like I mean this was like family and friends were expected, expected to give gift. Party. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so they, they, they just her mom and her just went. No, no, we just keep, we carry on as if it happened. And I also believe George didn't know, No, she didn't, that she hadn't actually officially graduated. What we wouldn't think what happens, we go to the ceremony like, isn't there like a?

18:48 You would think so. Where they throw their hats? Yeah, and their mortar boards up. And it just doesn't. I don't know. Nothing makes sense, but yeah. But see. This is this is all plays into it. It's just all things that are going to build to what we we know eventually happened. Absolutely. From 2004 to 2006, Casey worked for it was called and it was a company called Event Imaging Solutions and it was owned by Kodak like the the photo company. Does anyone actually even know what? I do because I worked at a company that did that we.

19:17 Talked. About that in. Last week's episode with you developing of the photos. Yeah. So she actually worked at Universal Studios at one of the rides taking, you know, taking photos on the right. Yeah, she was literally the kiosk of like the photos. It was on the Incredible Hulk ride. That's right. Well done. Good memory. So again, keep that in mind. Her job was working at Universal Studios. Fine, great, no worries. She earned a salary of about $20,000 a year when she worked there. So it was basically a minimum wage type job.

19:44 But she was straight out of high school. So 20 grand was, you know, a good step in the right direction to kind of get all that going. December of 2004, Kaylee is likely conceived. Do you want to talk to what we think we know about Kaylee's conception? Well, there's been there's many stories that Casey has given on this. Yes, so she falls pregnant. I believe she was 18 when she actually fell pregnant, but 19 by the time she had that's right, Kaylee, but she was dating a guy by the name of Jesse at the time throughout her pregnant, a lot of her pregnancy.

20:16 And she basically led him to believe that he was the father. And but he did have a paternity test done eventually and he was ruled out as the father. That's right. So not the father. Another story, Kate, that Casey told was that this the father was a guy who ended up having a car accident and died. But since then she has also said no, that's not the case. In the most recent documentary of hers, she is. And this is the first time her parents have ever known about this is when in 2020 actually coming 24 by the time they actually even heard this information, they've watched the original documentary that they heard this, this being the allegation of how she was conceived her.

20:55 So basically Casey is now saying that she was raped at 18 and that and that Kaylee was a result of that rape. Yeah. So. But who knows? Which is it? We don't actually know. Don't know. So that's the father of Kaylee. But then there's also the fact that she fell pregnant. She tried to hide it herself for a very long time, but it got to a point, obviously, where she was showing and clearly pregnant. And her mom being a nurse, like, I mean, she picked up pretty quickly that her daughter was pregnant.

21:22 But again, the two of them banded together and heed that information. People, literally family functions were coming up and congratulating Casey like that. She's pregnant. And they would say, oh, no, no, she's not. She's just bloated. Oh, come on. What? But all OK, few things that really irk me about that first thing. Yeah, we all get bloated, but we don't look pregnant. Oh, not, not that pregnant. No, she was. So I think this was when she was about seven months along. So you are like, and it doesn't go down.

21:53 Bloating comes and goes. You know. Yeah, this Tom wasn't going anywhere. She. Was really pregnant? Yeah. What the fuck were they gonna do when a baby came along? Like it's pretty fucking obvious that she was. Pregnant, yeah, I mean, they didn't hide the child when she was born, so like, I don't understand they. Didn't they announced her? Birth. But this to me, it really indicates a bit of narcissism from mum. Mum is a very interesting character, very interesting. Person rolling very controlling.

22:22 10th degree. And George also says that in later documentaries and stuff he admits that she is very controlling. Oh, you can tell by Even so, her demeanor in interviews and that kind of thing. She is so controlling. You think she's like that in front of the camera. What should it be like behind Closed door I? Don't know that my take on her actually is that you she's exactly who she is on camera as she is behind closed door. I don't actually know that she actually has the ability to change. So I kind of give credit to that in that, you know, if that's if she is being who she is and she's not hiding any of it, OK, I don't know.

22:55 But if it does get even worse, holy fuck. Like, that's bad. But she's, yeah, very clearly controlling. Which, I mean, part of me is she's a nurse. And in those sorts of roles, you need someone who's going to be in control of a situation for sure. She's done something in her life that, you know, use that to the best of her ability. But with her daughter and the perception of their family, she's gone ultimate level of control. And I do wonder whether with Casey falling pregnant at 19 and and obviously with the look at how she how much she loved Kayleigh and she and genuinely there was love there.

23:32 I wonder whether she really just took on the factor like she's my child. Casey's doesn't really isn't the mother here and kind of took over. She even said that in one in a in a snippet of an interview I saw and I feel like it was with the Today show or one of like an American the American Today show or one of those type of shows. Yeah, so she admits it. She basically said, well I knew I'd have to take Kaylee on almost as my own because my baby was having a baby. Yeah. And look, a level of me kind of goes she's 19.

24:05 She's 1919. Is not that 16 year old falling pregnant. Yeah, I think yeah, you're gonna have to be, you know, a mother to this child because like, that's a child having a child. But 19, she's got a few more he's behind her and you're gonna have to really actually support her being her, the mother of this child, you know, not be the mother of them, you know, like, yeah, it's. Yeah. She needed to support Casey and being a mum, yeah, to Kaylee, not not being a mum to Kaylee. Yeah, I think there's a big.

24:32 But that's not the role she had the ability to do. Yeah. And that's not the role I think Cindy, no, she certainly took it more so took a lot, a lot of responsibility in some ways. But then in other ways, she did leave Casey to her own devices sometimes. So and, you know, let her work out childcare arrangements and work out different things. I mean, we, we know there's conjecture around all that too, but there were. It's not as though she took full 100% responsibility for Kaylee. But I do, I think there's a little bit of like as much as you say she let Casey do that, I actually think Casey got to a point of like, I've worked out how to manipulate my mom a bit well.

25:07 She does say that in that documentary, doesn't she? She's, I think she was actually more so like I that's that stuff. When those arrangements were made without Cindy being involved, that would have pissed her off. Yeah, I, I really think that was Casey like trying to take control back. Trying to rebel a little. And yeah, and whereas Cindy wasn't really happy with that when she. And so she was constantly trying to battle with Casey in terms of the control over Kaylee, yeah, which would have been very difficult.

25:31 I could and I can empathise with. Yeah. With Casey for that. Yes, yeah, agreed. Agreed. Yeah, probably the only time I might say that. Yeah, throughout this time as well. So in 2006, a different company at Universal Studios took over all of the photography. Yeah. And so Casey lost her job. She. I think it was end of 2006. She lost her job. Yeah. And yes. Yes. And she basically had nowhere to go. But she still let her family and friends and anyone who asked to let them believe that she worked at Universal Studios.

26:12 So much so that she told people that she was actually working in the events team there. She wasn't. No, never, never did. Never did. She worked for an events company and only by name that was owned by Kodak, who did the photos. Yeah, that's, you know, I feel like with Casey, for every lie she told, there was an element elementary to it. Yes. And that's what makes it so hard to unpick and to actually figure out fuck what is. Actually, what is the actual truth here? What is true there is always, and that's the thing you've got with everything that's that happens.

26:49 You've got to hunt for that little minor detail that could be the truth in it, and then eliminate the rest. That's it. But yeah, and so this universal, the job, so she was telling everyone she was still working there. So she had no money. She was convincing everyone else she still had this job. For whatever reason, she continued this lie, why she couldn't fest to anybody and say, Oh my God, it wasn't like she did the she did the wrong thing here and like quit the job or anything like that. She was let go because the company wasn't running it anymore.

27:19 Yeah, so not that's not her fault. Why not just say crap like I'm in a spine here. I've got to find another job. Yeah, no, she lied to everyone, said she's still working there. She would disappear on like go out that every day and as if she was going to this job and return home as if she's been working all day. Like to the degree of like, Mum, you need to take Kaylee because I'm exhausted. I've been working all day. She had been. Looking up for a kid all day. So fair that she was exhausted after that too.

27:42 God, but she was then she had no money. Yeah, she had. She stole from her family and from her friends. Yeah, which is just awful. One particular, which was a family friend. I don't know how close they were specifically Amy that she stole her cheque book and wrote herself cheques so that she had money to. Do this to the tune of like 4 or $5000. Yeah, over, over a period of time. Period of time. Because she stole a similar amount of money from her mum and dad. Yeah. And she was living with her mum and dad at the time.

28:11 So they were fully, fully supporting her. They didn't. She wasn't paying. Bored. There was nothing like that going on. So Kaylee and Casey were living under George and Cindy's roof. Yeah, and they were fully supporting her. But they thought she was going to work and earning money, and she wasn't. She was just stealing it. Then April 2008 she meets a guy and she starts dating a guy by the name of Oh gosh Lazaro. Tony. Lazaro Yeah. So yeah, the the relationship seemed pretty. It was fairly new. It was going well together.

28:49 What, two months when, yeah, Kaylee really went missing? Yeah, so it was a fairly new relationship and I love this little he had he lived in a like a house share situation. Yeah, with some housemates and one of the guys described meeting Kaylee for the first time and I just think this is adorable. He so he said that Casey had she'd been hanging around for a while, but then on this particular day she brought Kaylee with her for the first time and in walk through the door walks this 2 1/2 year old with Sonny's on and goes Hey dudes.

29:19 You can imagine it like the attitude. How gorgeous. Yeah, and he said, he said, described her as just being, you know, a really gorgeous kid, not out there. Like she hid behind her mum as well, you know, and was like very attached to her mum, but at the same time had some real spunk about her. And yeah, wrote an absolute adorable kid. Yeah, they describe Casey's interactions with Kaylee as well as overwhelmingly positive. Yeah, they said, you know, she was doing flash cards with her. And really trying to build up her vocabulary and really working with her as most mums and dads do.

29:51 She was really trying to give Kelly the best start in life. And they said they only ever observed positive interactions with Kaylee and Casey and it seemed to them like Casey just doted on her daughter and and lived for her daughter. Really. That was the perception. That was the perception at the time. It absolutely was that that was what they thought was. And everyone does say that. And I think we need to, you know, you take that on that, OK, Everyone was saying she was a great mum. Part of me again, does the whole where's the lie and where's the truth?

30:23 Even with even that, I I wonder whether that was for perception only or I don't know and you don't. We don't know. We don't know her. You want to think positive things when you can get them, but she doesn't herself no favors. Yeah, because she lies constantly. Yeah, so Tony Lazaro was a club promoter. That was his job. And so Casey does say that, you know, around this time of meeting him, which was in 2008, she did start to do some work for him as well. So she would go to club nights and whatever and help him sort of promote these clubs and, and different bands and whatever was going on.

31:00 And yeah, so she did start to sort of earn a very small income at this time, but it was nowhere near enough to really support her or Kaylee. So just keeping that in mind. So on the 15th of June in 2008, which was Father's Day in the United States, Kaylee visits her great grandfather in a nursing home with Cindy and Cindy takes what we now know is the last known photo of Kaylee on that day with her great grandfather. So with Cindy's dad, Kaylee and Cindy return home and go for a swim in the backyard pool.

31:41 We know that they, you know, it was a it was a nice day. It's sort of coming up for summer and they had a really lovely day. Day by all accounts. Casey spent the day that day of Father's Day with her boyfriend, Tony Lazaro at his house. OK, so now we are at on the day. July 16th, 2008 Is that the day? Well, I was going to say June. Oh, you. Want to go back? Yeah, go. Or do you want? To go to July 1st, well. I guess there's just so much like what happened on that June 16th, isn't it? Like there's a lot.

32:18 OK, well, So what we know, OK, let's let's go to July, I think. OK, let's go to July 16th, 1st then. All right, cool. What we know is there were 3911 calls placed by Cindy Anthony basically reporting her almost 3 year old. Oh, she would have been 3 by then. Yeah, 3 year old granddaughter missing. Well, she even the original call is actually so Cindy. So let's actually let's go back a little bit. Yeah. So in June, Kaylee and Casey leave the Anthony home and say they're going to Jacksonville with Tony Lazaro.

32:56 Yep, so there are her family are under the impression that OK, she wants to go and do this. She can't. They can't stop her obviously like you know that she's away, but Cindy is calling her everyday trying to get touch with her granddaughter, all those sorts of things. But on July 16th, when Cindy finally, she actually finds out that no, Cindy, I'm sorry, I'm getting all these C. Names. I know there's so many C names. Casey and Kaylee never went to Jacksonville. They've been in Florida the entire time.

33:22 Like they've only been down the road, walks away. It's really not not far away. So she goes to Charlie Lazaro house pretty much drags Casey and Casey, not Kaylee Casey home and she's they've taken. So this whole time she's been gone, she's had the car, everything like. The family, the. Family car, like it's not Casey's car, it's the family car. So she's had the car, all these things previous that she'd stolen so much stuff from their family. So she drags her home and calls the police to basically, I think to scare the shit out of her really well you can wear her heads out on.

33:53 That first 911 call, Cindy is trying to scare her, I think. Yeah. And I I. Really feel you're gonna I'm gonna like follow through on this and I. Feel like she didn't think she was going to do it. No, Because she basically said she's like, well, you know, my, my granddaughter's been missing. I haven't heard her from her in over a month. Yeah. Or in a month or something. And I've been trying to call my daughter and I've spoken to my daughter throughout that time, but she's never let me talk to my granddaughter.

34:21 And I told her I was going to do this. I told her I was going to call the first. The first of is even more. It's actually less around the fact that Kaylee's missing. That's the car. It's the car. It's like I need someone to come and arrest my daughter, this person in my house for Grand Theft Auto for stealing the car. She's more concerned around that. Really weird in that first 911 phone call she doesn't say my daughter stole my car. No, or even I have a person here who. Needs to be arrested. I know my daughter stole my fucking car.

34:47 Come and get her. Yeah, I think, I think that's where like I get a little bit of a side of a of like, I don't really want to do this, but I need, I need Casey to hear me making this call to like scare. Herself I do understand. I do. I get it on that level, like, oh shit, not used to being someone who calls the police to have someone arrested. What do you how do you speak? What do you say to get this happening? How do I trigger this? But without being too over the top, because I actually don't want anything, any consequences of it.

35:13 I just want to have the scare that this might be what we do like. And I think I my take on that call is that Cindy believes that Kaylee's fine and is is with a nanny or whatever Kate Casey has told her at that point. And it's not until as those phone calls progress and that by that third one where it's like she's just finally admitted that no, no, she's not. She doesn't know where she is. She seen. Her for 31. Days, 31 days, she hasn't she. It wasn't this morning that she handed over to a nanny.

35:44 She's not here. That she doesn't know where she isn't for 31 days, she doesn't know where she is. That you hear the panic well and truly in Cindy's voice. Oh. She's she's almost. Beside herself, yeah, can't. And again, not being not speaking clearly enough for the the not answering the questions that need to be asked. She was offered her own tangent because in her brain, I think. Oh, she, I think she just had a in a breakdown basically. Whereas. The 911 operator in that third phone call asked to speak to Casey.

36:13 Yes. And Casey gets on the phone. It is compelling. Completely different like demeanor. Demeanor from what? Where Cindy's at, which just kills me. She's totally detached completely. She basically Casey base, the operator says tell me what's going on. And Casey said I haven't seen my daughter for 31 days. And the operator's like, well, where do you know where she is? And she said, well, yes, I know she's with. Fernandez Gonzalez Fernando Gonzalez. She pulls out this name like it's. Like just at the yeah, she knew this name.

36:49 Yeah. She then they then say, well, where is she? And she says, well, I don't know. I've been looking for her for 31 days. And the operator said, well, what have you been doing? And she says I've been doing, I've been doing my things. I've been, I've been investigating it in my own way. She doesn't actually answer the no. She actually does not answer anything. No, she tells her. What she wants to know, frustrating anyway, So the 911 operators like, Yep, well, we've, we've actually already got uniform officers coming to your house who think they're there to investigate a Grand Theft Auto.

37:23 Car that's gone, yeah. Been stolen not. They then get there, well, she's on this phone call and they're like, they've now faced with a missing child, a missing toddler case. Well, that's just boiling out of water. But obviously they then get detectives to come in and, and it all kind of starts going on from there. So what Casey says happens. So do you want to go back now to the 16th? Of now, Yeah. Now to what? Her explanation of June 16th. Is and the family well? At this point, yeah, go with what she tells the police at this point of what has gone on, I reckon.

37:57 OK. Yeah, What she says is that she, so George Anthony was home on the morning of the 16th. He had an afternoon shift at, I think he had to be at work by about 3:00 PM that day. He says that Casey left the house with Kaylee at about 12:50 PM Casey's phone records show that she remained in the area actually for many, many hours up until after 4:00 PM Yeah, at at on that day. Yeah, yeah. We then also know that Casey's seen at a Blockbuster Video store with Tony Lazaro at about nearly 8:00 PM that night.

38:37 Kaylee is not with her. OK, Yeah. Do you want to go through what Casey says happened? Yeah, in that day. So Casey says that she left the Anthony home and went and dropped Kaylee off because she was she was going to work, going to work at Universal Studios where she hasn't worked in two years. But that's fine, we'll just go with it. So that she was going to work at Universal, Universal Studios and when she worked there, she would always drop her child off at a nanny called Zenaida Fernandez Gonzalez Gonzalez.

39:09 Yep. Now how does she know this nanny? Well, that would be my mate Jeff, who I work with at Universal Studios. He has a child named Zach and he was using Zenaida as his nanny and so said, well, why don't we pal up and use that same nanny and we've been using the same nanny forever and we both drop our child off at Zenidas or sometimes we go to Jeff's house and we drop them off there. But this? House is better set up. It's better set up. Yeah, it's. Got a room that each of them can sleep in during the day?

39:36 Detail so much. Detail so then so she's dropped her child off with so Kaylee off with Zenida at this apartment building where she lives and then gone to work at Universal Studios and then when she's returned or she's even sorry during the day she called Zenaida that morning and spoke to her on the phone apparently. But then later in the day while she was at work, she called Zenaida again and got a this phone call. This phone number is out of service. Yes, and since that point on has never been able to contact her again.

40:07 Yes, and all covering all of her bases. Yes, and all she really knows about Zenaida is that she's got family in Jacksonville. And New York. And New York, well, her brother lives in New York, and, you know, she grew up in New York, but the rest of her family live in Jacksonville. Her two sisters. University, that's what. Yeah, she studied there. The the amount of like information she pulls out about this woman who, spoiler alert, doesn't exist yeah, is unbelievable. They're the lying and. Cracking believable, but I love it how in in court they refer to her as Zanny the nanny.

40:40 Zanny the nanny. Oh gosh, it doesn't, actually. It doesn't exist. So when the police, this was what Casey's account was from the 16th of June, 16th of July, they're now obviously investigating Kaylee as a missing person. So they say to Casey, they're looking into her story. So one of the first things they do is do a search on this Zenaida person. They, they actually, sorry, I think they found maybe 14 people with that name in all of the United States. But one of them did happen to live within 20 miles of the Anthony house.

41:16 Yes. So they go to this person very quickly eliminate that. It's her. It's 100% not her. Also, they bring that woman, this Zenida Gonzalez, they bring her in for a lineup and Casey can't pick her out. So it's clearly not the person you're leaving your bloody child. 2 year old and this is it. To this day, Casey Casey Anthony still says this woman exists. Yeah. And that the police just have not looked hard enough for. Her haven't found her. They haven't. They're not looking for her three names. She sometimes she goes by Zenaida Gonzalez, sometimes she goes by Fernando, sometimes she goes by this.

41:48 Name and she sometimes goes by Zani. Zani. Yeah. It's just she's So what? Combinations. Have they actually looked? At actually looking properly for her. Yeah. She doesn't exist. Oh, so at this point, whilst they're like investigating this, of this story of hers in the background, they, they let Casey sort of go and think that they believe her. And then what they say to her is like, right, we need to go and talk to people at Universal Studios. So like this. Where's Jeff? You know, we need to talk to him.

42:12 Yeah. Who else do you work with? Oh, Juliette Lewis. Oh, Juliette Lewis, this is my favorite one. And they're like, so they go to Universal Studios and the the security guard who like is meant to let them into the parking lot. He's like, I don't have a Casey Anthony here because. She's actually also for the corporate building. Not even like she never worked in corporate as an event manager. Wasn't. Ever an employee of Universal? She was an employee of Kodak, yes. So she doesn't come up on their system.

42:39 No, Juliette Lewis doesn't come up on their system. Fantastic actress, by the way. Yeah. Love her. Yeah. But she hasn't been an event manager either at. Universal Studios. Nor has anyone by that name, whether it's the Juliette Lewis or not. No. And this Jeff Hopkins, that's right, She didn't. She wasn't quite sure which department he worked in. Right. So anyway, they go, they gain access because obviously. They're they kind of push their way and they. They make sure that they we need. To get through we should go in anyway.

43:08 We're cops. We'll just my. Favorite scene? Love this. Casey walks into the office building, she's like waving at people and people are waving back at her because if someone waves at you, you do wave back. Have you ever had that awkward situation where you're out in public and someone waves and you wave back and you're like, oh fuck, that was they were waving to the person behind me or beside me or that wasn't me? More than I'd like to admit, I tend to do that. I think it's just human nature. If someone waves to you, you kind of wave back.

43:34 I mean, I'd always do the whole I must know you, but yeah. Hi, yeah, I don't want to be rude. I won't be rude. Like, yeah, yeah. So all these people just waving back at her and like, yeah, we know you, I think. And the cops who were with her or like, they already knew she never worked there. Yeah. So they were just kind of waiting. Waiting how they wanted to really make her uncomfortable and really put her in the fire of like, you're gonna have to fess up to us that you're telling lies now. I don't put her in it.

43:58 Yeah, but they literally they walked around for 25 minutes around those buildings, her looking for her office. Yeah. What? Huh. So eventually and the cop said so stone faced no like panic about her whatsoever. All of a sudden after 25 minutes turns around and goes, oh, look, actually I don't work here. I haven't worked here in two years. And they go. We know. Yeah, we know that. They then arrested her, took a line to the police. Police, they took her into a room at Universal and interviewed her there.

44:28 And you can actually there is video recording of this, this exact, it's an interrogation at this point. They're furious. Like, well, they're furious. So what they've what they've uncovered is that she's lying. Well, what they already knew was that Jeff Hopkins. Number one, absolutely. Well, Jeff Hopkins, who she's talking about that, you know, is, is connected to this, hasn't not only does he not work at Universal Studios anymore, he hasn't worked there in six years. And he doesn't have a kid. Doesn't have a.

44:54 Children. Like the stuff that she's just pulled out, she's unbelievable with this lying. She's so like, she's good at it. I don't want to give her credit. But yeah. But. She is, She is so. Good. Amazing at it. So yeah, they basically do arrest her at that time, not only for the false information that she's given to police, but also for child neglect, because at this point, obviously she has not done anything about a child who's been missing for 31 days. Yeah, she hasn't reported her missing. There's no proof that she's done anything in order to actually find her.

45:27 And when she does finally talk to the police about it, she's told them blatant lies. Because the other thing is they've denied her a apartment that she gave the address for. They went there. No one has lived at that address for more than two months, Not even like back to June when she supposedly dropped off this child a month even more. Prior to that, no one had lived there. Her friend Amy had lived at one point, you know, in that same. And so there's that element of truth that goes in there and.

45:56 That's how she knew to give an address because her friend had lived there at some. Point gave one that she knew a rough estimate of, yes. And so I gave another apartment in the same block or whatever, but that particular one, she knew no one had lived there for two months. Yeah. And certainly nobody had ever in that ever in the history of all records for that building by the name of Zenaida, by the name of Gonzalez, by the name of Fernando, Nothing. No, no has. Been attributed to the rental for any of those not buildings at all.

46:26 No, they've been, they've been checked. Sorry. They were also at the apartment building. They did check CCTV and there was no CCTV footage of her of Casey arriving with Kaylee to drop her off in any of those apartments. Like they have CCTV of all of the car parks and there's kind of like stairwells going up to like external stairwells going up to the front doors of these apartment buildings. And the CCTV, you can see every corridor, every stairwell. There is no sign. And they looked not only on that day, on the day that she dropped her there, the 16th of June, they looked a month, a month before.

47:01 Yeah, as if this was the nanny she used. Consistently and she'd never been there and a month after to see that this Sonata may be taking Kaylee somewhere or, you know, whatever. Nothing. And there was no interruption in the CCTV footage. It's not like they missed a day or someone's over recorded something nothing like that. All of the records were legit fair and intact. Yeah. So it's, it's, oh God, it's just absolutely freaking unbelievable. Yeah, but they do believe at this point. So when they're interviewing her, they, the cops, you can sense by this interview that they have with her at universal there at that moment that they are they their understanding is that this is a mother who's not panicked by her missing child.

47:43 So they're feeling like, OK, she's like, Kaylee's alive, We just need to get the freaking information out of her. So that's where they're frustrated. They're actually thinking that this isn't they're looking for a dead child. They really do honestly think that that a woman who is not panicked about this, she knows something and isn't telling us enough. We need to just find this kid. Yeah. So what the police then decided to do was, okay, let's look at Caseys life for that 31 days that her child's been missing.

48:10 Yeah, so they go through Caseys planner. I mean, we're going back into the days of Myspace now. So there's photos and things and posts that she's made on Myspace. There's photos on people's, you know, friends and whatever's digital cameras and stuff. Yeah. There's photos from the club promotion nights, there's Facebook posts. Yeah. Yep. She basically her social life became busier than prior to Kaylee's. Kaylee got missing because when you're the mom of a 2 year old, you don't really have a huge amount of time for a social life.

48:41 No, you're with your child. If you're not at work, Yeah, you're with your kid, basically. Yeah. But so in that month, you know, preceding the discovery that Kaylee was missing. So, yeah, before July, you know, we can see that Casey's social life certainly picked up. She's certainly not a troubled mom trying to find. A kid. No, there's CCTV. The police did an amazing job in investigating this. Yeah, they went through CCTV footage of, of shops that they knew Casey had frequented from bank statements and stuff.

49:14 They knew where she'd been shopping. So there were, there were time points of her say at Target. They go and get the CCTV from Target. You can see Casey, she's there, she's buying beer, she's buying women's clothes, she's buying food items like chips and dips and salsas, kids stuff. Like kids? Stuff and also Kaylee is never with her. They I saw I reckon at least 10. Yeah. CCTV individual videos where she's doing these types of things out and about and Kaylee is never with her in those 30 days. Tony Lazaro, housemates.

49:48 They also stated like that Kaylee Casey bought Kaylee with her at least two to three times a week prior to this, June 16th. Yeah. So they would see her pretty regularly. Yeah, literally from that point onwards for those 31 days, they never saw Kaylee. Kaylee did not, did not come with her. She was coming over and being and more often coming over and spending a lot longer there and no Kaylee. She spent three weeks there. Yeah, three solid weeks there without them seeing Kaylee. Not at all. Yeah. And it's not like Casey provided an explanation as to where Kaylee was.

50:22 It just wasn't spoken it. Just wasn't spoken about. And like, I find that a little bit interesting. No one said, hey, where's Kaylee like? But then I guess those two blokes, they would have been so much younger and they were a bit like, you know, I mean, I guess they, they were housemates. They weren't friends. We'd smoke in, haven't, whatever, chill. Doing their own thing and and you know what? It wasn't on them to question it. It really. No, it wasn't at all. No, they were just, they were just the house mates.

50:44 Yeah, we should say the cops obviously then looked very, very closely at Tony thorough we because at this point where they've arrested her at Universal, they then obviously take her back and she she's put into prison and we're not prison yet, but jail I guess at that point holding so situation and she makes phone calls from the jail. Now in Florida, their laws are wack in some ways, but it's amazing for us because we get a lot. So it is all public. All these things you can actually go and find all these recordings online.

51:14 Just go on search, you'll find a whole lot. But so you can listen to these recordings of these phone calls she makes from the jail. One of them in particular is her first phone call out of jail when she's after this arrest at Universal. And it is mind boggling, but at the end, because the only thing she wants out of this phone call of calling her home at the Anthony home. So she speaks to her brother Lee. She speaks to her mother, yes, and she speaks to Christine. I think it is her friend who's her best friend, her best friend and all she wants from all three of these people who are like, shit, Casey, what's where's Kaylee?

51:46 What is Kaylee? What's going on? Casey's only mindset is give me get me Tony's number. I wanna speak to my boyfriend. So they, the cops take that information and go, hey, well, we need to look at the boyfriend. So they looked very much into him and ruled him out very quickly that he didn't have anything to do with it. And has literally of all the people involved in this, you really can't find anything about Tony Lazaro. He has separated himself from this entirely, which all credit, obviously he had nothing to do with this.

52:12 No so, but she was gung ho on that phone call. All I want is Tony's number. Give me Tony's number. My heart broke in that the best friend particularly, who clearly had a real attachment to Kaylee, as I can imagine being young and having one of your friends have a kid, your auntie, like pretty much like that's how she would have been. And she was desperate. She was. If there's something happened to Kaylee, I'd be heartbroken. Like, you know, and she breaks down and cries and Casey's reaction is, oh.

52:40 Seriously. And this friend Christine? Yeah, she says to Casey on the phone. She said why are you so calm? Like because she can't. Understand herself. Yep, she is. She is reacting how a parent should. Yes. Whereas Casey is she literally is frustrated that, oh, why are you being so dramatic about this? Like it's the the level of like, oh, I just. Can't, and Cindy's beside herself in. Yes, and leave too. Yeah, brother. They just, they're like, what is going on? Tell us we need to. Know and the way her brother speaks to her in that I've it's really telling I think too he's clearly he's so frustrated and it's it's not frustration of just this point in his life to me that phone call says I've had to deal with you being this lying annoying person my whole life freaking stop this ghetto I need you to stop now and just.

53:31 Tell us where the time. Now's the time to stop. Cut the shit. Cut the shit. Yeah, I can. You can really sense the frustration in him. Yeah. He seems to be quite the same person, to be honest, in all of this. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, my gosh. Oh. My God, it's just, it's just horrific. It's absolutely horrible. Oh no. She also during that 31 days, sorry just quickly, Casey also got a tattoo on her back shoulder saying Bella Vita Bella a beautiful life. Excuse me, you're fucking 2. Year old missing. It's not a beautiful life.

54:07 Her explanation for that in the most recent one, it just killed me. I can't. That's one thing I can't even can't consolidate in my brain. In no way whether her story in that is true or not, that tattoo does not make sense for me. No, she's now gotten rid of it. Yeah, well, she's had it covered up. Yeah, she's covered up like. And Mandala and and she and she said something about, you know, some. Yeah. And it's a tribute to Kaylee. Yeah. Oh fuck off. Get her name tattooed then. Like don't. That's she.

54:38 You can't cover up Kaylee with Bella Vita or Bella Vita with Kaylee. I guess just it's, it's disgusting. That, that one's my clincher for me to be honest, that that tattoo, tattoo, I don't know where your brain is at to get that when your daughter's missing. Yeah, to even consider getting a tattoo, like a memorial tattoo is fucking weird. Yeah, when you don't. But I guess what I was going to say before was that in all these video recordings that you see of her, there's just she has absolutely no shame.

55:15 Oh, none. Whatsoever there's everyone's calling her out for these lies, she never misses a beat, she never reacts of like she stays at that same level the entire time and her story will just then manipulate and change to fit another narrative. It's she never can. Make up a lie on the spot is incredible. She never, ever goes. Oh, yeah. Like, you know, you've caught me and like, yeah, OK, I've lied. She never, ever, ever, ever does that. She's she's, I mean, so we know she's obviously gone through a trial and so obviously there was extensive personality tests administered on her and, you know, all of those tests to determine whether or not she's a psychopath, sociopath, whatever.

56:02 None of them came back that she's any of those things. But she's absolutely a compulsive liar if nothing else. Yeah, I, I, I can't, I can't reconcile that for then what she says happened because which we will get to in a second, but I, I, I can't actually get that right in my brain. No. Why do you need to lie if you have a have the story already? Yeah, What what are you trying to what are you trying to hide in amongst all these lies? Like that's what gives. I just think she's got 0 credibility to the point where you were saying even in that documentary that's supposed to be coming from her perspective.

56:50 You watch it and you're like, well, I can't believe a single word that comes out of your mouth. No. There's nothing about her as a person that makes me want to believe her. Yeah. And I'm. And that's coming from me watching that as a very first. I didn't know all of it watching it, you know? Yeah. That's not from like seeing months and years of her. Yeah. Presenting this. Yeah. That was my first full take of her as a person that I went. I don't believe a word that's coming out of your mouth. What?

57:15 What there's, she just performs every, every word out of her mouth is not genuine. Yeah. There's something really quite wrong with her. I, I that sounds awful, but I think there is honestly something really quite wrong with her. Yeah. Just really quickly as well, I think we didn't mention, you know, how Cindy made the 3911 call. Yes, in the second call she says something that really does pertain to this case. I was. Literally going there too. Oh well, you no. No, yeah, I saw my notes. Yeah. She basically said that they, they were able to repossess the car because, well, Casey's story is that she ran out of fuel and she parked.

57:55 She got two guys who helped her push the car off the side of the road and then her dad went to pick up the car. When they, when he got in the car, she had been transporting 3 bags of rubbish in a pizza box and then she'd gotten rid of 2 bags of rubbish but didn't get rid of the third bag. So there was like a smell of rubbish in the car and there'd been meat in there. So like, it did smell pretty bad and the pizza box was obviously smelling pretty bad. But OK, that's that's Casey's side of the story.

58:28 In the 911 call, her mum says it smells like there's been a dead body in that car. And she says it, distressed. Oh. She tone beside herself. And she's a nurse. She's a nurse. She knows. The smell of decomposition. Yeah, that's. As does George. George was a detective. Yeah, I'm sure he came across many a dead body in his time. Yeah, that's a point of like, it's a big conjecture point too, in the case of, like, whether or not that smell is, you know, recognizable like that. Yeah. And one explanation for the rubbish in the car is that that smell was already there and she was trying to mask it.

59:10 Or give a reason. For it? Yeah, Give a reason for it. Probably more than even a mask it. Yeah. But putting that that apparently her car was parked near a dumpster for a long period of time. So the thought is that maybe she'd grab a bag out of there and put it in her boot, because who drives around with that? Why don't you just go, that stinks. Get it out of my car. Or you put your rubbish in your household rubbish bin. Well, this is it. So where are you taking weirdly? Enough. Why is it in your car?

59:32 Why is it in the car anyway? So there is thought that maybe she'd grab that out to put that into. Well, well, to give, to give a reason, to give a reason for the smell, Yeah. There was also a stain in the boot of the car that's, you know, could it was a brown stain, a very dark, deep brown stain. Yeah, she said that was just like juice from the rubbish bags.

59:55 Yeah. Yeah. And the other, so the other thing that was that was they, they did, the police did. Take possession of the car quite quickly at that point to investigate the car because of this smell. That was apparently even when the officers arrived, they smelt that smell too. Yeah. And I believe that if you have smelt the smell of decomposition, there is nothing like it. Well. This is not that's my understanding as well. It was actually another documentary I watched with this woman. I really love her and and the guy that she does.

1:00:24 What do they do? The oh God, what's the podcast that's gonna really annoy me. But they did a documentary together. It's going to really frustrate me who they are. Now you'll know. You know who they are. She's English. She's she's from Scotland Yard and he's an ex FBI. Profile. Yes, I know exactly who you're talking about. Yep, Yep. So they did a really strong breakdown of all the evidence in this and it what where it all landed. And so the people they spoke to, the experts on this, of this smell and people saying that, that it's really distinctive.

1:00:53 And when you've smelled it, you've never, you know, they talked about the fact of how can you differentiate between that being a human decomposition, animal decomposing or rubbish. And there was varying opinion on that. So I think what they were saying in that is that there are certain chemicals that get released by different things that so that would make up that smell, right? And it's in there in varying levels depending on what it is that's decomposing. So whether it's a human body, animal tissue, which is very, very similar in composition of of the types of smell.

1:01:31 So they're things like these chemical compounds are things called, they're called like putrine and cadaverine and stuff like that. And but there's cadaverine, I believe is in like minute amounts in coffee. And it gives coffee a nice smell, that type of thing. Right. But in these massive amounts in a decomposing body, obviously it's it's disgusting and we can't stand the smell. Yeah. It's a very different smell to me than a smell of like garbage decomposing. Yeah. So the only thing I can kind of like give a personal sort of reference to is when a few years ago we were at Phillip Island and we came across.

1:02:12 The. Body of a beached whale. Yeah. And have I spoken about this before on the podcast? I I just remember the smell was so bad of this decomposing mammal that I don't think if I smelt that again, I would know that smell. Yeah, it's, it was unlike anything I'd ever smelt before. It was so disgusting. And I've like, I work in pathology. I smell really bad things all the time, but it's not like that. That was decomposing tissue. Yep. It's, it's not a pooey or wee, you know, it's not, it's not a bodily smell.

1:02:53 It's a completely different thing. Yeah. And I'm sure a human body probably smells a little bit different to that too. Well, they did a really interesting experiment on this documentary where because obviously a Godiva dog, he he alerted to the boot of this car of be having that sense. That's that scent of decomposing body. And they did this really interesting experiment with a Godiva dog where they gave, they put in the boots of cars in this lot and one of them was decomposing human parts, whatever they used, I don't know.

1:03:24 And then another one there was decomposing animal parts and another boot of a car randomly was rubbish and meat smells, whatever like kind of thing. So they put them in different cars in this lot and then let the dog go to do its thing and it only alerted to the human. Yeah, because, but see the the argument to that in court was that the cadaver dog is only trained for that specific scent profile. Yeah. So what that kind of confirmed though, is if you've smelt that smell, then you know what that smell is?

1:04:02 Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, totally. But the defense tried to basically say, well, that kind of means nothing because we've got a similar chemical composition in the in this one or this one. It it meant they they tried to argue around all of this to to no. Availability. The one thing I will say is, which I think this argument can be put to anything really, is that the dog will alert to any human like decomposition. You can't prove it was Kaylee. So the only thing is that to me, the argument with it is at some stage a dead body.

1:04:32 And to the point of like what the guy explained was that it can literally be a dead body that's been laid there and sat there for an hour or two or a week or a month, or it can be as little as an hour or two or so. And that smell will be there and retain there for a very long time. So yeah. So basically at some point in the the year, the lifespan of that car, a dead body had been placed there. You can't tell say it was definitely within the last few months. You can't say it was definitely Kaylee.

1:05:02 Like can some a previous owner have potentially had a dead body in the boot of that car? I don't know how where there's. Smoke. Though, Well, 100%, I think that that's yeah to me, but that's not how other people see it. I guess they'll pick apart. Yeah, yeah. So are we at the point now where Casey's in prison? So yeah, she's in prison, I guess. And I guess the next point where is is where they find her body. Yeah, she's an interesting story as well. Yep, actually, before before we do. Just really.

1:05:38 Quickly while she's in prison, Yeah. So while she's in prison, she basically, I guess she feels like she needs to figure out what her story's going to be. Because they do they once they sort of look at her car and a few other things, they immediately do charge her with first degree murder. That's the the where they go with this. So when she while she is sitting in jail waiting for a trial, there's still no body. All those sorts of things. And yeah, this is her sitting in jail waiting for trial basically on 1st degree murder with no body.

1:06:10 Yep, and I guess at the point when they found Kaylee's remains, they the prosecutors then decided that it would be a first degree murder death penalty charge. So. So October she was charged with with first degree murder. They actually gave her that before they even found the body. Yes. So they did jump to that very quickly. Yes. So and then obviously the body was found on December 11th. Yes, and that's when they decided to add the the death penalty to it because of what they found and how they found it.

1:06:41 Yeah. So Casey recalls this time in prison. It's very interesting, the types of things that she says. But she says because she's finally able to have space from her mom and dad and her mom's very controlling, she actually had nightmares and seizures, recalling memories of abuse when she was in prison, Seizures. Sorry, what? You had nightmares and seizures and a seizure made you recall something like what? The actual fox. So she starts. Now at this point she tells one of the investigators on her case that she was being abused by her father.

1:07:23 Can I also say that 8. So she was in quite a secluded area in the prison. She was kept separate. Solitary. Well, she was in a solitary cell and she never had any interaction with any other cellmates aside from I think she had someone like she was directly. Opposite her so they would communicate via and they would like write letters to each other right. Interestingly, that girl had been abused. Now that I just find that disclosed, that disclosed and the next thing she's then disclosing back to her going me too.

1:07:56 I just had a seizure and I just remembered. Me too. So I've that's I, that's where the element of truth I think is. I find that might be the element of truth in this. Well, the prison mate she's interviewed in that latest documentary and she actually says she's like, there's so many elements of what I have told Casey have then become her truth. But she says it as if, you know. Oh, yeah, we, we had the same story, but she doesn't see it. How weird. You and I see it. No. But I look at that and I'm like, yeah, because she's fucking just copied everything that you've said and taken it as you taken it as hers.

1:08:31 Yes. Oh my God. So what? What Casey claims happened is that from the age of 8, she was sexually abused by her father, her lawyer in court. He was in, he was, he was actually a really, if I am. Lawyer ever. Yes. On trial. Murder. I'll call. Him, get him I'll. Call him. Yeah. I can't stand him. Oh, he's bloody good at his job. He's. A fucking prick, but you would want to grow your side. You would want him on your side. Yeah, he, oh, he, he's incredible. But he basically says in one of in one of the court hearings, what, what was she supposed to do with her father's penis in her mouth all the time?

1:09:14 Oh my God, actually said that in. Oh, that I didn't hear that. That's disgusting. Yeah, but he. Wanted to create. He wanted that reaction in the jury. He wanted that reaction in from people to be like Oh my God this poor girl. Incredible allegation. What proof have you got of that? You see footage of George sitting in that trial and he just sits there stone faced. He doesn't go like. But he is a cop. Oh yeah, that people cut keep coming back to that. I I just if that was being accused. I think if.

1:09:45 I was being accused of that. I don't care what my training was. I don't care have. You seen the documentary of their their Oh. God, I'm freaking out the lie detector I did. I mean, he's a broken man, yeah, but I still. I don't know what I think. I really. Don't same. I don't know. When we were talking about that, so this is the one little slip up we had during the week that we were talking about. You said at the very end, yeah, something came up in that documentary that made you go, oh, not quite sure.

1:10:15 What was it? Do you mean in the the lie detector one or the OR her one in? The lie detector one? Or was it in her one? Now I can't. Remember what we were talking about in the in the where the law, the truth lies one, I think, yeah, 95% of that. I'm like, I can't believe where that comes out of her mouth. I can't. I just can't. She's lying again. And all of the allegations, I think this is awful. But there were parts of the things that she used where there's George Anthony at Kaylee's funeral. Oh my God.

1:10:47 And what he said there? Which I've actually written there. George's speech in my notes. George's speech at Kaylee's funeral is fucked. It is and the language he used in that. He actually, so Pardon actually says at Kaylee's funeral, which so Kaylee's funeral was held while Casey was still in prison, so she was unable to attend. But they held the most elaborate, basically like state funeral. They it wasn't a private affair. It was recorded and filmed and it was broadcast like everywhere. Like you can see it online.

1:11:25 You can watch it. Yeah. George gets up and makes like a fucking speech. It wasn't a eulogy. It was a speech. And he gets up and he says, I loved the sweet smell of her sweat. Oh, excuse me. What the fuck? Casey's take on all of this was that this was him basically admitting that he was a pedophile and that he was abusing her. Yeah. Because he was just re perpetrating. So sorry. Just going back really a bit here. Yeah, so when Casey is saying that her father was doing all of these things to her, and obviously she's so traumatized by her account, she's so traumatized by this.

1:12:06 It lasted until she was about 12. Then her brother started sexually assaulting her. Never rape. Never rape. He. Never raped her but that one. Well, he said, she says he groped her. He'd come in and put his hands up her shirt, that kind of thing. So that's what that's what Casey says happened. Yeah, again, both Lee and George deny these allegations. Adamantly deny it then my thought in all that is then why the fuck when you had a daughter did you live under the under the roof of your perpetrator?

1:12:42 And why did you let him hold her and touch her and be around her? She does try and make explanations for that. I didn't believe one no, but. That's the thing, I don't didn't believe her and I don't always want to believe a victim I am. Saying but we, we have said. This thing I try. Tells you something. Believing. Yeah, we have said that so many times before. And yes, in the first instance, if nothing else had come before this and he knew nothing else, I would definitely believe her. Yeah, but she has lied about so many things.

1:13:15 And how do you all of a sudden remember that you were abused when it comes to a time that you need to defend yourself for the murder charge against you for the murder of your own child? Especially when. It's just. Explaining that is that during that 31 days that it was her dad dictating to her that Kaylee was still alive and that he had taken care of things and that she just had to follow his instructions. And she goes. Well, if that's the case then, but you didn't know at that point that you'd been abused when you were a child like you had, but you knew to follow his instructions and do all the things that he why, why are you scared of him then?

1:13:50 If you don't remember the the abuse, like I don't know it and I psychologically I don't understand whether that's possible and how that disassociation can occur. According to a forensic psychologist who interviewed her as part. I think his name was like. Her. Yeah, I remember him, Yeah. Or KEB, maybe something like that. He basically said that in situations of abuse of a minor, especially somebody as young as eight years of age, you do They do dissociate. That is a very common response. Yeah. And then you become incredibly compliant.

1:14:24 Yeah. And you actually end up loving your abuser because you think that. You're the safer place to go and. Your abuser showing you is telling you. They're showing you love and you're special. You know it's wrong. Yeah, on some level, you know, it's. But also, if you go against them, it's actually putting yourself in danger. That's. Right. So there is obviously, there's so much to that. There is a lot in that. But I don't know it. Again, I don't actually know what I believe because. Yeah, she just does has not done herself any favours with the constant lying that if this is the truth, it's really hard to believe her.

1:14:57 Yeah. Because, yeah, there were parts of that story then where she was. I was kind of like getting. I was by the end of it, I was like, oh, is this there's truth in this? So I did leave that documentary going, oh, Frick, maybe he did do this right. Because in that documentary they very, very much show parts of George in interviews and in in bits in the courtroom where he looks bad. Oh, yeah. And I knew, and I'm not an idiot. Like I'm watching it kind of going, this is the worst of him. Like kind of, I understand that.

1:15:26 It's probably I'll probably now go to other places and find things that don't marry up to that, which is exactly what happened. Because then after that you go to the documentary where they do the lie detector test and like they're like he, he look, they're very odd people. They are very. I think that there's, and I do think there is an element of this family have created a bit of an enabling situation of with Casey being a liar and all these and I do believe that there's some fucked up shit there to the point of abuse.

1:15:53 I just don't know. And he did pass the lie detector test, not that that's, you know, they all end. All as you said, it's not a miscible miscible, it's it's. Something yeah. And he didn't do just one. There was three. He did, he did 3 and I think I think Sydney did one but and they all, they all passed clear all those those. And they were done by somebody who was reputable in that space. Absolutely give that credit. I do and but the things in that documentary that got me were how broken they are as a family.

1:16:24 Yeah, I just remember George saying in that how he would go out at night and just search for Kaylee and he was just constantly exhausted. And even Cindy backs that up. She says your dad, she even says to Casey and some of those phone calls into the prison, dad's been out all night again looking for Kaylee. Do you have Are you sure you don't know where she is? Like I feel like they definitely think Casey's involved. Well, that's the thing with the two of them have conflicting opinions. And I think that that's where it's broken their family in that sense, because I think George believes it was Casey.

1:17:02 Well, I don't think that he said it. He said he believes that Casey was involved in this. Now, Casey would say that he's saying that because he was the one who did it. Yeah. Cindy, who spilled the beans on the. You know, it smells like a dead bodies being in the car on that phone call, then backpedaled and tried to defend her daughter and has tried to back her daughter and be like, no, no, no. I don't believe she would have done anything to a child now. And I can understand that as a mother too, that, you know, you speak in the moment of like, you know, the the truth and then go, oh, that's gonna fuck her.

1:17:32 I've got to help my child now. Now she's I I think there's absolutely legitimate parenting, you know, stuff going on there for her. And I do I, I think that she's trying to help her kid out. Yeah. And I so I think that she, she wants to believe that she's not involved, but he's led to the, you know this. Well, what else am I meant to believe? Agreed, I think it's worth actually now saying what Casey says happened on the day and then what? Yeah, because she keeps changing a bloody. Story there's there's so much change to the story but I guess the latest 1 is that on that day she wasn't feeling a Casey wasn't feeling 100% and decided to go for a lie down.

1:18:08 Kaylee went with her and according to Casey, because she was abused for such a long time that she was a very light sleeper. But on this particular day, maybe because she wasn't well, she had she was in a very, very deep sleep. Two hours later, she woke up from that nap and Kaylee wasn't in the room anymore. They shared a room, but. The TV was still on because that's what she was watching TV in her room on. Yeah. And the door was open. Yeah. And she goes out and says to George, where's Kaylee? And George is like, well, I don't know.

1:18:42 So they start looking around for Kaylee and I think Casey, her recollection or her account is that she was looking inside. George has gone outside and found Kaylee in the pool unconscious. And brings Kaylee in his arms to Casey soaking wet and starts yelling at Casey, what have you done? What have you done? Like, and this limp child in his arms who he hands apparently, according to Casey, hands the Kaylee over to Casey and is basically like, you know, you, you've done this huge deal with this one.

1:19:21 And then he apparently then takes Kaylee off of her and says, I'll deal with this. Like, you know, I'll sort this out. You just take off. I don't know. Well, basically Casey then says, well, I had to get out of there, so she went to Tony's house. So then and George did whatever with Kaylee. That's Casey's accounts and. According to Casey, then, every day from that point, George was ringing her, telling her what to do, Yeah, and how to live, Yeah, and to not just keep going. And Casey reckons that she was led to believe by George that Kaylee was alive and OK.

1:19:57 She. Saw she actually, but see, this is where there's another conflicting account, because in that documentary she says I knew when I held her that she was dead. She was a dead, she was a dead weight. She there was not. There was no train. To her, as Cindy has stated, both Casey and George are CPR trained, George due to being in the police force and Kate and Cindy had actually expressly said to as a nurse had said to her as a mother now you need to know CPR of how to look after your child I mean.

1:20:28 Very responsible if you found a child deceased or like in a pool limp call call 911. That would be, that would be your number one, because you would hold out hope that they could bring her back or whatever they could get charged. On your arms. Someone can get here and help me and? Fix this you through CPR over the phone like even if even if she wasn't trained, which we know she was even if she wasn't George was there George he could have done it. She they, they see the 911 operators, 000 operators that makes.

1:20:59 Sense to me that whole scenario it doesn't make sense that him as a cop you he would know procedure in that and that look yeah this sounds freaking awful that if if that's what happened she drowned in the pool he would know this isn't a murder charge. This isn't something you're gonna get in trouble for We an accident has tragic accident has occurred. You do everything you can in your power. And then we then, unfortunately, we are going to grieve a death in the family. And that is awful. But there's no point in this where I go.

1:21:28 Oh, yeah. George would have like, you know. Like, oh, let's hide the body, yeah. But that's where I think that's where, sorry, that's where then Casey's story then changed. That's what was presented in court. Now what she says is that George, she thinks that Kaylee didn't drown in the pool. George did something to Kaylee sexually abusing her and it's gone wrong and she's died. So what she thinks happened is that Kaylee was probably about to call out or making noise while George was sexually assaulting her that he then put a pillow over her face, probably suffocated her, and then needed to come up with a story to kind of cover his tracks.

1:22:08 So he's put her in the pool. Yeah, so that she looked like. She so she looked like she drowned and hopefully like if the police were called I guess and the ambos came, they would be like, well this is a child drowning. No further investigation. Required, even if that is the truth. Again, why would he? Then they just kept the cover of the story in that. Well, no, in that case I understand why George didn't wanna call the police. You know, because to me, like you've still got. If you do an autopsy on her, there'd be no water in her lungs if she was deceased before you put her in the.

1:22:35 Pool OK, but maybe they wouldn't have done an autopsy if they just like assume. Like, oh, they would have done an autopsy. You would have to. You would absolutely have to. Yeah, in a child like that, you would do an autopsy. OK, Well, he would have known that, yeah. Yeah. So in that case, I still can't understand why Casey didn't. Why didn't? Because in that story, she's still there. Yeah, and she knows CPR. She knows CPR. And she can access the. Child. Absolutely. Oh, just, I don't know, this whole thing, It's so.

1:23:00 So fucked up. It is. It's this poor little girl at the centre of all this too. What has she gone through? Oh honestly, because what they found when they found the skeletal remains of Kaylee, which was only found, what was it? A couple of 100. Oh, sorry, quarter of a mile away. Quarter of a mile away from their house in some in like a wooded area. It is basically like it is. Swampy Bush like jungle like at that point. You can't see that far in front of you like the photos. It is dense, swampy forest.

1:23:33 Yeah. Yeah. Bush or not Bush. Yeah, Forest. How everybody was discovered is a bit interesting. So, yeah, so the phone call came through on December 11th and now we're talking we've moved changed seasons and so this area is slightly more accessible in December than it is earlier where they were doing mass searches. But that area don't don't believe had even been searched because of a number of reasons. Apparently due to the way Casey gave the story that she was had been handed to a nanny, their search area wasn't necessarily around the the Anthony home it was.

1:24:09 Even though that's where Kaylee was last seen alive. Yeah, I I find that very interesting. But that's sort of their explanation as to why that area hadn't been searched thoroughly. But. From what I can gather as well, where she was found was basically impenetrable by foot. And they had been told not to go anywhere where there was standing water because that's unsafe for. Those alligators. Looking Yeah. So they had been told not to do that and this this particular area would have been standing water at the time.

1:24:35 So there's not So there's there is a number of reasons why this area wasn't searched when they first started looking for him. But by December 11th, it was a different lay underground. It was able you're able to reach in there a little bit easy. So this guy pulled up in his truck. He'd been where he worked for Oh my gosh, like telecommunications was the. Company. I believe so, yeah. So he pulled up and he needed to go to the toilet, caught up at this point and walked in through this bit of bushy ground, found spot to urinate, went and did that.

1:25:03 He took with him a stick of some sort from his particular thing he uses in his job. And as he's walking back out poked and prodded at this bag that he'd seen and picked it up and picked up the bottom of the bag a little bit and out rolled a skeleton, and a very small one for child's size at that. Which is awful. So he immediately contacts his boss, who contacts police, and the police come in and they find the remains and very quickly from that point they do identify the body, unfortunately, as being that of Kaylee.

1:25:37 The way the bones were found, they were really interesting. So that again, there's still conjecture around this too. It's, it's absolutely fucked up. But her, her bones were wrapped in a Winnie the Pooh blanket, which we know matched the bedding in her house at the Anthony home. And then it was in a plastic garbage bag, which had been duct taped together, sealed duct tape around the top. Yeah. The duct tape becomes a sticking point in the trial because what the prosecution say is that Kaylee's mouth was duct taped and that Casey had suffocated her.

1:26:15 That was their that was their theory that Casey had suffocated her using this duct tape because Casey wanted a life without a child. She wanted to go out and socialize and party and do all of the things that other 19/20/21 year olds do without the ties of a young baby or a young child. So that's that's the case that they presented. A really interesting thing came out in court. Lee, Casey's brother, was called to testify and he actually testified that in the past when they'd had family pets that had been that had died and they were burying them in the family sort of in the yard or whatever, George would actually wrap the animal in a blanket, put it in a garbage bag and tie the garbage bag with duct tape and buried in the backyard.

1:27:11 Which, yes, George did that. Casey would have seen him do that as Lee did, Sure. So again, I don't I think that rules out either of them. I think, I think it gives us no more information. Other than that, that's something in the home that was done. Yes, that. So then this is the thing that all those elements that were found like the Winnie the Pooh, the blank blanket, the duct tape, which we then then find that that duct tape. There's other that duct tape is is found that same brand if it is found in the home, but also a laundry bag that was there, this white laundry bag which it can be bought in a it's bought in a set of three and there were two found in the home.

1:27:48 Yeah, so exact same brand, all those sorts of things. So the items that were found with her the the IT shows it that. She died at the house. At the house and that that's where she was brought to was where she was dumped. But so we're not ruling out any of those people who lived in that home again. So it's not it's. Not a smoking gun. That's the thing we do. We. It's so, yeah. It's crazy. But the other interesting part about the bones being found was that so this all happened that, you know, bones we found December 11th.

1:28:20 You know, all this is it's ramped up with the case and that thing. So because they're moving towards trial. But it then comes out that Roy Cronk, who was the guy who found the bones, he, this was not the first time that he had contacted the police and had found Kaylee's bones. So he had actually called three times prior to this. This was the 4th time that he had contacted police about this back in August. He had been in that area and had seen something. And I contacted police and said we're in, I was in the area of the Kaylee Anthony home and there is a bag in this spot and it's got some interesting shaped items in it that I can see.

1:29:03 I haven't touched it. You need to go and check it out. Yeah, yeah, sure. We will. They didn't. He rang the following day and said, does anyone been down there to check that? Because I really think that's something that needs to be looked at. Oh, yeah, yeah, we'll look at it. Yeah, yeah, no worries. No, On the third day, he got really frustrated and he rang again and he goes, I'm down here now. I need an officer down here to meet me and come and have a look at this because this is, I think this really needs to be looked at.

1:29:28 So an officer goes down there and meets Roy Cronk at the scene, takes one step in and goes, I'm not fucking going in there. Yes mate, you're really wasting our time. I don't understand why you're wasting our time. This is ridiculous. Turns around, goes away.

1:29:48 So interesting enough on its own that he has contacted that many times then. Yeah, back in December, by the time this is still going and still going on, and he goes, he's like on his way, doing his work going. That's been ignored at that point. Well, I've got to go urinate anyway. I'll go in that site where I've been looking. I've seen things. And that's why he prodded a bit more, is what he's saying That by the time he got there, then he's like, no. No, I took the stick out of his. Back with him everything that's why he did that was he's like no, I'm going to prove this myself thing because I think that this is something.

1:30:12 And he was right. Yeah. Now the the defense decided that oh he's got something to do with this and they actually accused him of moving the bones or and and taking them away and putting them back there or having them and doing something being like the culprit of all of this. He's none of that. They threw. They were just trying to throw reasonable. Doubt, and it did throw reasonable doubt, although again in this document I was talking about, they did a really thorough look at in terms of the bones and how they were found and the way that the growth of things were around the bones.

1:30:46 The fact that there was Ivy like growing through parts of them and how long it would take for that to occur, the decomposition and all those sorts of things of how long those bones have been sitting where they were, regardless of him poking and prodding and moving things where these bones ever moved from that site. And it was very clear that it would take at least five to six months for that amount of growth to occur on the stand. Though some random expert, and I'll put that inverted commas, said that it would only take two weeks.

1:31:11 To. Grow for that growth to occur. Come. On I mean, I just where do they find these people and how that that frustrates me in terms of the court system of like putting someone on the stand that clearly had no idea what she was talking about. I really, I, that throws me. I'm entirely like, it's the poor jury trying to make these decisions. Then you've got people being able to be set on a stand as if they're experts and giving really false information. I mean, as a layperson, and I've mentioned this before, I'm not a gardener, but I would look at that and go, there's no way that would be two weeks worth of growth.

1:31:39 No, no. I don't know how that was ever allowed. And how the jury were like, Oh, yeah, yeah. Well, they weren't they, you know, like, Oh no, I'm confused. Well, we don't, we don't know. We don't, Well, we don't, we don't know. But they look, they probably it could have gone out of the way. Actually, it legitimately could have gone out of the way for them. Yeah. The prosecution offered a plea bargain to Casey. 20 years in federal prison with no death, death penalty. She said no fucking way because she is 100% innocent.

1:32:15 Mate. Even if your story is true, the story that you're telling the court, you are not 100% innocent. No, no. You've still hidden the fact that your child is missing. Yeah, you've hidden the fact that your child is likely deceased. Yes, which is, well, I find interesting. So at the end of this, ultimately what's added to her charges, She was. So she was charged with first degree murder, aggravated child abuse, and four counts of providing false information into law enforcement. Now the child neglect that she was charged with originally I think should have stood as well because even if as you say, if she wasn't the person who actually murdered her child, she definitely was neglectful in that she wasn't reporting her missing 100%.

1:33:03 100. Percent. So I have to say at the end of all of this, that's the only one positive thing out of this. I reckon there is actually a new law called Casey Casey's, Kaylee's law that has been put in place in I think 11 states have employed employed this into the legislation. So, and what that means is that any that a felony charge is required for a parent or legal guardian that fails to report a missing child in the cases where a parent should does know or should have known that their child was in possible danger.

1:33:37 Good. So that would mean that in this situation, if this occurred now, no matter what, as a minimum, Casey would have received a charge of that a a felony charge sure of child neglect for for that. So that's one thing that Kaylee, that Kaylee's law that has come into place is a positive of this. Yeah, that is true. That's something the prosecution also said. They went through all of the computers and stuff in the home and the tech and what they found was that there was a shared family computer. And so it had, we're sort of going back now into the early 2000s where you had different profiles so you could select your own profile as you booted up your computer.

1:34:19 And every member of the family sort of had their own profile. I mean, a lot of laptops and stuff have that on it these days as well. Yeah. And Casey's profile had been activated. And Google Chrome. This is actually quite funny because they're like well we know it was either Casey or Lee who searched this because they used Google Chrome as opposed to Internet Explorer cause only old people use Internet. Explorer. It's hilarious, but Google Chrome had been used to search foolproof suffocation at 2:49 PM on the day that Kaylee we think Kaylee was.

1:34:51 But the prosecution didn't know that no at the time of trial. That's the problem anyway. It's just there's just so much stuff. And then when Casey's asked about that, she says, well, we all knew each other's password, so it could have been anyone. But other family members dispute that. They say no, they say that. Well, well, they they wouldn't have been any need to know each other's passwords because they had their own profiles on the computer. It wasn't like 1 password to log into the computer.

1:35:17 Yeah, it was a password to log into your specific profile. Yeah. So they say they didn't know her password. Whether or not that's true, who knows? There's so many. But if and if the prosecution had known about that search, that would have actually, so the defence's argument of this entirely was that it was an accidental death that George was involved in how and covering up the baby, the the body and everything like that. So by that search of the suffocation, foolproof suffocation, it would have dismantled their case because it it now becomes or it's not an accidental death.

1:35:53 So that could have blown all of that out of the water. Yeah. But the prosecution were not aware of that because of a it's they said it's a lack of funding, which is such such absolute crap. Like it's. Yeah. Apparently the person who was put on that job to do look for all those searches and things only looked at one Internet browser. They weren't looking at other browsers. So it was only they like, looked at Internet Explorer and not at Google Chrome or Firefox or something. Yeah. Like it was yeah, to that, that was what what occurred.

1:36:25 So that's why the defense knew that the defense knew that existed. They had had someone look at it. They paid someone, you know, more money to look at those different browsers, whereas the prosecution, so they all had the same hardware information. Yep. But the data being looked at was looked at by two different people on the defense side and the prosecution. So yeah, that's where that had it had been disclosed, but not to that degree. The other thing that is really interesting is the fact that George's phone records were never subpoenaed.

1:36:54 So we went by the police. So what we know is Casey's were. So we know she was at or around their house until about 4:00 PM on the day that we now know Kaylee went missing, which was the 16th of June. We don't know what George where George's phone was peeing from on that day because his phone records were never subpoenaed. Now you've got to think about this was. This something where they were. No, they were never subpoenaed. OK. What we know is so the home, the home records were though the home phone records were, but that doesn't prove where George was.

1:37:31 No, we know phone calls that came into and out of the home phone, but we don't know George's mobile phone record, right. And what that actually means is that we don't know whether George was in or in or around the house at the time. That would have given a lot of weight to Casey's side, Casey's version of events. So you listen here, though George immediately established himself with the police investigators as a detective. He he references it constantly during his interview. He's like, oh, I don't want to come across with my detective hat on.

1:38:06 Oh, I don't want to come. I don't want to, you know, use detective speak when I'm talking about this, you know, so I feel as though they were like, Oh yeah, mate, don't don't even worry about it. You're one of us. Yeah. So I feel like there was possibly a failing there too. But then do I believe George had something to do with it? Yes, but what? I don't know. And I'm just like so I'm. So I'm so torn as to whether he is so torn the pedophile that she describes him as, or whether he is this doting beautiful grandfather I. Well, Casey in this is the other thing right in one of her prison calls that you can hear.

1:38:43 Yes, she says to him because he goes I I feel like I've failed you. I failed Kaylee and she goes, dad, you are the most beautiful father. You are the best grandfather. But this was. Before Case Casey's language in that is past tense. You were. You were the greatest, yes. And we didn't know at this point, No, Kaylee was her. Body had not been found yet, no. But then she catches herself. Yes. And she goes. She changes. Still are. Yeah. And you still are. Yeah, Well, no, fuck off. You've already, you know, she's dead.

1:39:10 Her language in that is very interesting, yes, but also that's again, we can't believe anything that she says. And so I don't know whether to like in that moment, are you just appeasing your your father and saying what you want, you think he wants to hear? Or are you genuinely like no dad, you've been great, you know, like it does my head in. I don't know. No, I don't know what to believe. I don't believe her. I don't believe her at all, but I don't I believe any of them in that family. Like the only person I think I do believe is Lee.

1:39:39 Agreed. I think he's got his head screwed on and I think he's over it like because between the mother daughter relationship of Cindy and Casey is also fucked up. But then I do think, you know, is this then George is George this poor, poor bloke who's been dragged along by these two women and of this relationship between them who's I think that dynamic has caused him heartache well before this as well. Obviously with, you know, the graduation stuff and then the pregnancy stuff, all those massive lies that have been in that family for so long.

1:40:09 And I can see an exhausted man. He did attempt suicide, we should say in January 20. Oh God, what year was that from 22,000 and 9? No, you're right, it was. 22nd of January 2009 So Kaylan's body was found in the December and he did attempt genuinely attempt suicide in the January late January and the letter that he wrote in that So before what happened was he texted family and friends telling saying goodbye to people. He went to a hotel and took a shit load of 70. Yeah, 70 pills. Apparently he genuinely was, Yeah, yeah, he sat whilst the so, whilst the pills were taking effect, he wrote a letter so, but obviously by these text messages he'd sent, people contacted authorities, they've tracked him down and they did get to him in time and saved him.

1:40:58 But the letter that he wrote, again, I think that that indicates him having not having knowledge. He asks a whole bunch of questions in that letter around like, you know, I just want to know what happened to her and how did she get to where she was found. And that the stuff that if he was, if it was a confession and you that he's more likely to, if he was involved, to me, that was the time he was going to confess it. And psychologically, that apparently is what people do that, you know, deathbed confessions is a thing.

1:41:25 It's genuinely they want to do. They want to exit those things from themselves before they pass on. And so to me, that was the time to do it. And he didn't, he didn't, he did he what he confessed was this guilt of I didn't do enough. I didn't do I, I've, I've made mistakes, but not to the point of I've made mistakes where I've abused my daughter and he and my granddaughter or, you know, and, and he murdered anyone. He did say that though, that I'm sorry for what I've done to my family. Yeah. But I think that that's, that's where I read that in the context of the entirety of the letter.

1:41:56 Sure of that. He hasn't managed to not the family's broken and he hasn't managed to be able to keep it together. Right, OK. Yeah, that's how. I so he's assuming responsibility from that angle, not. That the I haven't been good enough as a father to stop this like or whatever or, you know, I haven't been and. Then in that letter he also references playing with Kaylee in heaven and. And he actually signs it off as I'm Here I come, Kaylee. Yeah. Which? I don't know. But then if you look at that from the lens and like a pedophile, you're like, well, that's really fucked up.

1:42:28 Yeah. So it's I I just don't even know. Freaking adore his little grandpa. Yeah. Would you know, Like, you know, that's. I don't know. I don't know. No, I don't know. It's so frustrating. It's so fucking frustrating. Oh, but. Oh God, I don't know where to even begin. It's just horrific. It is horrific. It is absolutely. Horrific. In this this whole case though, in obviously, as we said in Florida, they're ruling their laws and things around the sharing of information. So the minute this became a trial case and the minute that the prosecution disclosed all their information to the defence, all that information also is disclosed to the public.

1:43:10 Yeah. So all this stuff is public knowledge of like all these interviews with with police, all these, you know, phone calls in the jails, everything becomes public knowledge. Yeah, which part of me is like that? I love that because then I get all this information. But people take this to the NTH degree. And I can't handle, regardless of how guilty anyone of this in this was, random strangers rocking up at someone's doorstep and screaming at them and, you know, and abusing them. I could. I can't handle that.

1:43:39 The videos footage of that occurring I just found really distressing. I feel like that's no offence to people who live in the United States, but there is a lot of sensationalism around these things. I don't think you'd find that behaviour in Australia. No, I really don't. But because, as you said, because things are so open and everything's accessible right from the get go, people feel. They're part of it. So much a part of it and like they need to insert themselves into it. So like for example, where this is the other thing actually that I wanted to talk about that makes that gives me the fucking ick about George and Cindy.

1:44:13 So when Kaylee went missing, they set up a foundation like the Find Kaylee Foundation or whatever. I can't remember exactly what it was called. And they raised a lot of money. They had these T-shirts printed that had Kaylee's face on the front and then all of the contact information on the back and stuff like that. Yes, they raised lots of money, which was meant to go towards the search for Kaylee. And then you know what, the funeral, like people were donating money because that's what we do when we don't know what else to do.

1:44:40 You know, that's a very human thing to like. I'll help in. Anywhere I can if I put money out of. Some money I will and George and Cindy went out and bought a boat with the proceeds and they called it the Kaylee Marie. It was so fucking gross, like a speed boat too, and it was so over the top $600,000 this boat was. Would they keep that? Yeah, I believe so. So that's it. See, that's just gross. And that that just goes to me. Well. Oh, that yeah. Because actually they went out on the water one day.

1:45:11 Yeah. And when other people were actually conducting searches of the area. Like I'm talking, I don't know what the equivalent of SES is in the United States, but, you know, volunteer, organized community organizations who look for people in these situations. There were community members out searching and all of that, and they're out on the water. But they were doing that to promote Kaylee. Who the fuck is gonna see your boat when you're out on the ocean in Florida? Like no mate, that's not. And they came back and there was sunburned and everyone was like exhausted from.

1:45:40 Oh, dad on the boat. Well, no, everyone was exhausted from a day searching for Kaylee. They were. Yeah. And they've come back a bit sunburned from being out on the boat all day. Like they just. It's just so. This also fucked up. They. Don't help themselves. They don't help themselves. What? What planet do you think that's OK? And that's. A and then like there was that other bit with George having the affair with the woman that he met. But he says that never. Happened, he says. That never happened, but she testified in court that it did.

1:46:10 She testified Underoath that they had an affair. Yeah, I know what she got to gain or lose from that. But it was a very well known, I don't know, because then are people like get hungry for attention. I don't know. Oh. Come on, That is, if that's the case, then she's a associate at least. Well, then you would be absolutely. But George swears he's like, yeah, he had a conversation with her and got to nowhere, but there was never an affair. But. Also had other affairs throughout his marriage to Cindy.

1:46:37 That's that's known, that's fact. Admitted to that? Yes, he's admitted to it. Oh, then yeah, then OK. Like it's, it's just so fucking fucked up. And there is so much to this story that I feel like every time I listen to something or watch something, I was like, another thing came about and I'm like, what? What? Yeah, what the hell? Wow. All of this could have been saved if a 911 call was placed, if that's even what happened if a 911 call was placed when they discovered that Kaylee was deceased in whatever.

1:47:11 Way, the thing with this is typically with these sorts of things, I get to the end of these and I can go. I think I can place together enough of something that went on. Yep, I got nothing. Same same. I just can't. I don't even know. And you and I often will come to like we a similar conclusion often. Yeah. A similar conclusion this time is nothing. Because I don't. Just know when she when has Kaylee died, how she died, who who did anything, how accidental it was. I reckon. I reckon Kaylee died on the 16th ish of June.

1:47:46 I think she died early on in that 31 days. Oh yeah, yeah. I think, I think Casey absolutely was involved somehow, I think, or at least knew something. Yeah, I think same of George, actually. I think he's probably somehow involved. I know you've got a very different, well, not a very different. Taste. I don't know if I do or not. I yeah, I find it. Really hard. I couldn't convince someone of that. No, because I don't like, I'm not. I'm not convinced. No. I just think where there's smoke, there's fire, so there's somebody like, I feel like they are all involved in some way.

1:48:26 The only thing I think is that in all of this, the trial, etcetera, I think as wrong as it is, the jury got it right. Yep. In acquitting Casey because the prosecution didn't have a Case? No, the defence did a very good job. As we said, I I would definitely employ him as my lawyer if I ever get called done for for for murder. He's incredible at his job, but also the prosecution was shit at their job. The case wasn't there. They did not have a strong enough case. They've gone to court with a first degree murder charge and they did not have the evidence to back it up.

1:49:02 I feel like they thought that because of all of them. Media sensationalists. It's OJ Simpson esque in terms of the we've got. This got this it's. Fine, so easy. Everyone knows that she did it. The other thing that I found interesting with the trial is they they sort of recognized that there wouldn't be enough people in their county to get a fair and unbiased jury. So they just got a jury brought in from 100 miles away. Yeah, yeah, as. If they didn't. Know, but it was national news, it was what was going on so.

1:49:33 Something like 66 million people around the world watched the trial live. Holy cow, 66 million I. Really need to get on the court TVA little bit more often, I reckon. This. Yeah, that's crazy. Oh well, the the Diddy stuff, huh? Karen Reid. Karen Reid. Oh my God, mushroom. So many. Was if they don't wish they'd televise it here. Yeah, yeah, but yeah. So the the jury did the right thing. I I applaud them in their take on on a field for the jury because clearly the public didn't agree. Yeah with that.

1:50:09 But, and so I know there was 11 juror was interviewed around the because I can do that in the States, whereas here you wouldn't be allowed to do that. But they interviewed this woman and she's like, it's like my dirty little secret that I was on the jury pool because you can't tell people, 'cause they just abuse you for like as if you got it wrong. But they they were. We they got it right. They did do the right thing right. And I not and not because I, I actually I do believe that Casey, to what degree I don't know, but I do believe she was involved and do believe she should have had consequences.

1:50:38 But they didn't get it on the on the day like the prosecution did not have the case as there was reasonable doubt. The other thing is absolutely there was reasonable doubt. The other thing is though, the prosecution and the police, the fact that they took Casey to trial so quickly really hasn't worked in their favour because of the double jeopardy laws that apply. And so she will never ever, ever, even if they find a slam dunk, she can never be tried for this again. No, that's exactly right. You know, they've potentially done a massive disservice to Kaylee.

1:51:15 Yeah, if they ever find out any evidence that points to the fact that Casey was involved. Yeah, absolutely. So you know, who's made, who's making these decisions. Like I feel like in Australia there wouldn't have been enough evidence to support putting this person through trial to a trial. Yeah, well, the other thing was that they felt what undid the them as well was the prosecution, as much as the jury did have a choice of what they could actually find her guilty of. They could have found a guilty of first degree murder, which held the death penalty, which obviously that's pretty hardcore.

1:51:49 And they that you know, that that can bring some pretty big emotion into it that a jury might go. I think that she did it, but does she deserve the death penalty like so? There was also on the table obviously manslaughter, secondary, sorry secondary, second degree murder, manslaughter and aggravated manslaughter. They were all on the table as being possible outcomes. However, the prosecution again did themselves no favours and everything they presented meant that the jury had to find her guilty of first degree murder.

1:52:21 That was all they aimed for rather than giving options of, OK, if you don't believe that story, it's potentially like maybe it's this that would slot into a second degree murder or maybe this happened in manslaughter. They never gave the jury those options really in terms of what they presented. So the jury, it was basically an all or nothing option for the jury. And so when they sat down to look at this and go, it's not first degree murder, they haven't they haven't got it. The only other option was if it's not that, then it's nothing.

1:52:51 So that that's, I think they, they probably could have aimed a little bit differently and gone for a manslaughter. Yeah, on it and been. But they didn't, and, and here we are. Casey is now working for the investigators who helped out in her case. She's working as. A. She lives with him as a. Research. Not anymore. But she did for a long time. They took her in after a trial because she had nothing. She had no money, she had nowhere to go. She started a totally business at one stage, but yeah, didn't get.

1:53:19 No. Would you? No, the she's estranged from her family, from her. She speaks to Lee. I think so. But her mum, she has some communication with limited, OK, because it works, because her mum does still sort of support that, thinks that she doesn't. Well, publicly says that she supports her daughter, OK, Whereas she has no relationship with her father, Yeah. Well, I mean, she's. How could you What you've you? Couldn't. No, you couldn't. For whether it's true or not, you couldn't. So yeah, I I understand that.

1:53:53 Yeah. And she calls him George. She doesn't call him Dad anymore. And she calls mom Cindy, too. Yeah, yeah. Which, yeah. I think I mean, I've just realized the time. One other thing, though. Yeah, because there was some text messages between Cindy and Casey after all of this, that one of them actually got me that of like that narcissistic trait. No, mom was that they were having this bit of argument over text message and particularly around the ashes of Kaylee, which Cindy will not give to Casey now she's been acquitted, but she will not have been hate.

1:54:28 That's I as. Yeah. As much as I'm like those things that Kay that Casey had something to do with this. Yeah, she's her mum. I think she needs at least split them in half. I don't know like, not that I like doing that. I don't think that's OK, but you need to find something out here because she does need to. I don't know. Anyway, yeah, they're arguing over that as Casey's asking for her for Kaylee's ashes, and her mom's response to her was to send her the photo of case of Kaylee's remains that were found and go.

1:54:56 Well, you did this, so you're. I'm not giving you the ashes, are you? Kidding me I. Didn't know that. And the way she says it is. So the way the way Cindy explains this interaction and shows the text messages to the interviewer is so detached from it. Like, you know. Yeah, well, so I just responded with this. Oh. For fuck's sake. I'd be like, so I kind of like maybe this and it wasn't right, but I sent it like, you know, there was no element of those. Feeling about I was. Really vindictive and I and I know that's probably really hard for, but I shouldn't have done that, but I did.

1:55:28 No, it was. So I said no, that Yep. What? What are you going to say about that? Well, Casey says she wants the remains. She wants Kaylee's remains because she wants to be able to take her to all of the places she didn't get to visit when she Cindy. Has Cindy also said in that same interview then of like, I will scatter Kaylee's ashes before I die so Kaylee Casey never gets them? Fucking hell. That is vindictive. That's vindictive and that poor little girl like, Oh my God, I just at the centre of it they.

1:55:58 Bring it back to. Katie, there is a dead 3 year old for fuck's sake. I I can't with these people. I can't. It's awful. It's horrible so. What we haven't said to you though. So obviously at the end of this trial, she was acquitted of the first degree murder. What she but the only thing she was charged, she was convicted of was the lying to the police, which 4 counts of lying. She definitely why don't she admits she's a liar. She even says that now to this day I do lie. I know I lied. So she did lie.

1:56:30 So with that came a four year sentence with so that the judge decided with sent it with time served and good behaviour which she ended up she was in prison for three years during this trial period and all that sort of thing that she so that with time served that she was released ten days after the trial completed she was out free and. That's it. That's all she got. Poor Kaylee. It's a big one. Oh my God. At the end of it, we just, you know, our heart breaks for that poor little girl. And she's so gorgeous, so beautiful, so cute.

1:57:06 Little spunk. Yeah.

1:57:10 So sad. OK. On that note, we're going to leave it there. As we said, so much information, so much in fact, please do yourselves a favor and even if you just go and watch a few a few clips on. YouTube list the just nine on one calls. Yes, yeah. If you just do nothing else, they'll blow your mind. And also to put faces to these people. Like I found when I would see them, it really gave me another perspective again. Yeah. And to see their mannerisms and stuff. So yes, please let us know what you think, too.

1:57:43 Like I'm so curious to see what people's takes. Are at least send us this all like and this we got it wrong, are we? You know, yeah. What have we missed? What have we not? What have we know? Like I. Have to have the whole time researching this like what am I missing here because. What have or what have we not considered? Or what angle have we not considered? This is it. People are very like, I mean, very staunch on their ideas of this. Whereas and we're coming out going. I don't know what I think.

1:58:05 I really don't know. I can't. Oh, I'm so confused. Yeah. Yeah, what have we got for next week? Next week is 50. Woohoo so we put out a bit of a shout out a few weeks ago for people to give us their suggestions and we have come up with Meg What are we doing? We're. Actually gonna do Martha Stewart. Yeah, girl. So stay tuned next week for our Big 50. We're really proud of that milestone. So thanks to everyone who's been along for the ride. We really appreciate it. Please, as we said at the start of this episode, like and follow us on all the socials and on whatever podcast platform you're listening to us on.

1:58:47 A like a follow a comment. Yeah, goes a really long way. Join. The conversation. Tell us what you're thinking, Yes. Thanks everybody. We'll see you next week. Stay curious, crime besties. Bye.