Episode 49 - Caylee and Casey Anthony

0:16 Hey, 2 crime besties, welcome to another episode.

0:19 Here we go. This one's a big one too it.

0:22 Is it's really big. My brain's exploding with this

0:24 one and like passionately as well.

0:25 Like I'm like, I think we could get a bit fired up with this

0:28 one. I.

0:28 Feel like we're going to however, yeah this has this case

0:34 has completely fucked with my mind.

0:36 Oh, I am all over the show as to what my thoughts are in this.

0:40 But I think that's that's almost what she wants.

0:43 Yeah, yeah. But does she?

0:44 No, it's it's crazy. And I don't actually really even

0:49 know what I believe. So at the end of the episode,

0:52 look, maybe I'll form some opinions as we discuss because

0:55 you and I have not discussed. We started to the other day and

0:58 I was like, we cannot talk about this because we need to save it

1:02 for the recording. But yeah, it is.

1:05 Oh, it's mental. Yeah.

1:06 Completely mental. Yeah, we're talking today about

1:09 Casey Anthony, but more specifically as I think it needs

1:12 to be brought back to Kaylee Anthony.

1:14 That's right. Oh yeah.

1:16 Like this one is, it's huge. It was huge in the America.

1:18 An absolutely huge in America. And I've always like I'd known

1:21 about this case. I'd heard bits about it.

1:23 I'd never deep dived any of it. I'd never listened to any other

1:25 podcasts on this topic. It's only what I've picked from

1:28 media bits and pieces that I knew about it.

1:31 Oh my. God, I'd now that I do maybe a

1:33 short form podcast or so like an episode about it, but I not in

1:38 any depth at all. Yeah.

1:39 And Oh my, as you said, Oh my God.

1:42 Anyway, before we get into it, yeah, it'd be remiss of us not

1:46 to have a bit of a chat about the week and see how things are

1:48 going. How are you?

1:50 I'm great, especially when I see you bring in a big hole from the

1:53 door. You can.

1:54 Get those deliveries here. I love.

1:57 It every Friday they probably think, I mean I've got a bit of

2:00 a shopping problem probably, but every Friday we get something

2:05 delivered, don't we? You do.

2:06 It's great. Yeah.

2:07 I love it. So today was a she in order.

2:10 I think I said to you I'm like I'm not really sure how $2.00

2:13 plus $2.00 + 4 dollars plus $8 equals $260.00 but here we are

2:18 Yeah. Yeah.

2:20 But we've got, you know, several celebrations coming up in the

2:23 family, and I just went to town a bit because, you know, things

2:26 are only $4.00 and you're like, Oh yeah, I'll have four of those

2:29 and seven of those, so. Cheap, can't afford not to buy

2:32 it. That what exactly?

2:34 And then you get those coupons and 50% off this and 100% off

2:39 that. I don't love that.

2:40 Yeah, that ran like 100% off. It's like.

2:42 What? Yeah, it's really not No.

2:45 Ohh. What?

2:48 I love the way they scam you in that shit.

2:50 It's just like, oh, I'm going to fall for it anyway, yeah.

2:53 You were saying that you have that same problem when you go to

2:55 Kmart, you pick up a couple of things and you think it's going

2:57 to be like $10 when you get to the cat.

2:59 Food I'm a shocker in Kmart, like I'm the home W shit.

3:02 I love that stuff though enough, weirdly enough.

3:05 And you're going to absolutely lose it over this.

3:08 So you know me. I'm not into candles, no, turns

3:12 out which one. So since we've now been and done

3:16 that candles, we may went to candle workshop and made our own

3:19 candles. I'm now like, I think I need

3:21 candles like burning in my house.

3:22 What? I thought I'd just start with

3:24 some cheaper ones, like in terms of like the Kmart ones and

3:27 buying a few of those and I like them at home and stuff.

3:30 I know who am I? I don't know.

3:32 I don't know anymore. Sorry, who the fuck are you and

3:34 what have you done? With.

3:36 With my two crime besties, I there is a candle at the minute

3:40 at Kmart that I absolutely love. I think you've you would have

3:44 smelled it. I think I actually had it

3:45 burning when we were recording last week.

3:46 Oh, that wood it one it was. It's got like a wood Wick, which

3:49 I love because it kind of actually sounds like a bit like

3:51 an open fire. Because I've got a a wood Wick

3:53 one that I'm sitting with me because I'm still not I'm I'm

3:56 not a fait with candles yet. I'm still learning.

3:58 OK, right that I've got a really sure what.

4:00 You need to learn. I don't know either, but this is

4:02 where I'm like, do I need to know more about this?

4:05 Because I've got this really beautiful country Rd. candle

4:08 that smells divine when I like smell it, but I haven't.

4:12 It's a Woodwick 1. And so I'm like, I think I need

4:15 to burn others and like get better at burning candles before

4:18 I light that one because it's obviously a better one.

4:20 I don't know. Seriously.

4:22 I know. I really don't.

4:23 I don't know. I don't, I don't know what I'm

4:25 doing. Well, give it a go with these

4:28 Woodwick ones, I think maybe. I feel like it's maybe $12.00 or

4:32 something from Kmart. Yeah, yeah.

4:33 And it's. Look, it's a soy blend candle,

4:35 so we know after doing our candle making, you don't wanna

4:37 soy blend more. But it's citrus and mint, and it

4:41 is. Oh, I probably can't burn that

4:43 in my house then. Fresh in oh, you wouldn't be

4:45 able to use it. You wouldn't be able to when the

4:47 case is home, but maybe you're not when they're not when

4:50 they're not there. You're gonna go?

4:51 I'm gonna have to go to Kmart. Sorry, doll.

4:53 Spend another $200. Yeah, buy a.

4:56 Candle and $12.00 candle. Yeah, twist my arm.

5:01 Seriously. Yeah, if only their clothes

5:04 section was better. But the homeware stuff I'm

5:06 always I. Find their clothes can be a bit

5:08 hit and. Miss, hit and miss.

5:09 There's like at times you'll get something good and then you'll

5:12 get. Fuck all, yeah, And there's not

5:14 great stuff, yeah, but there's people.

5:17 I follow a few people on Instagram who do Kmart's try on

5:21 hauls. And you always look good in

5:22 those. They're like, great.

5:23 And then you go in and get it and you're like, but it's all

5:25 out of shape. And it's not, it's not quite.

5:27 It's not gonna wash well. No.

5:28 Yeah, the kids. Stuff it's fine, yes.

5:30 I don't actually don't mind a bit of Kmart kids stuff.

5:32 I think their quality is pretty reasonable.

5:34 I actually find that their T-shirts are good.

5:36 I find that Kmart are the target ones, the cheap ones, you wash

5:39 them and they go like off centre or something, whereas the Kmart

5:42 ones do hold up. Well, that's true.

5:44 But yeah, but they, I don't know, the adults clothing's a

5:47 bit. Yeah, just say it's it's hitting

5:48 me. It's big time.

5:49 Yeah, yeah, yeah, I do. Love me a bit of Kmart.

5:52 But yeah, she ends one where I've fallen down that rabbit

5:55 hole before and I've spanned myself.

5:57 Now I'm like, no, don't go there.

5:59 I was telling you about my first ever Sheen order.

6:02 Yes, this was years ago. I feel like it was during COVID

6:05 actually. You were onto them early?

6:06 Yeah. Or was that early?

6:07 I don't even know. But I bought a T-shirt and it

6:12 was this lovely T-shirt. I still remember it.

6:14 It was white T-shirt with like rainbow confetti polka dots on

6:20 it. So stunning.

6:21 Love it, loved it. It came and it would not have

6:24 even fit on a standard size doll.

6:28 I love that. Worst $8 I've ever spent.

6:32 So I haven't. I haven't bought clothes from

6:34 there again. No, I love that when you emailed

6:37 them back just sort of go, hey, what the deal?

6:38 They just blocked. They blocked my number my my

6:41 e-mail address so I couldn't even contact them.

6:43 Don't complain to us now, yeah? You get what you pay for,

6:47 they're fine, whatever. Oh God, I love that.

6:50 I mean yeah, as I said to you, I've done the the full, the Shay

6:52 and Hall and I had like 5 items and out of the five I kept one.

6:56 I feel like one out of five ain't bad, although how much did

6:59 you pay for the other 5? I feel like it was under $100

7:02 for $5. So, but then so now that's cost

7:05 you $100 for one T-shirt or did you?

7:06 No, no, no, I, I returned OK and look that was that process was

7:09 pretty easy. But apparently like for your

7:12 first one, you get that for free to return.

7:14 But I I think from then on you have to pay for returns.

7:16 I think from I vaguely remember reading that kind of going

7:20 right. Well, this is it.

7:20 Because if only one out of five hit, then I'm not going to risk

7:23 it again because the other ones they are.

7:25 It wasn't like the items I got them and went, oh, no, it is a

7:27 bit tighter than I thought or something.

7:29 They were like, not what you ordered.

7:31 What I ordered. Like as in the material was

7:33 disgusting and right. Yeah, it was never going to.

7:35 Look good. It wasn't going to be good, No.

7:37 I introduced a friend this week to the joys of shopping through

7:41 The Iconic. So the Iconic have all good

7:44 brands and stuff. Great.

7:45 And they often have like really good sales, yes, but they also

7:49 do free 30 day returns. So I've so I've done this.

7:53 I've ordered a few dresses for my party.

7:55 Order like 2 sizes or. Something.

7:57 Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you just return it and you

7:59 get your money back. Yeah.

8:00 It's just such an easy way to shop.

8:02 It's inconvenient. I do like that and the iconic.

8:04 Iconic is good for that. Like for that for shoes, because

8:07 I actually don't like, I don't like shopping online for shoes.

8:09 I've got wide feet. I need to better put my foot in

8:11 them. But at least with there you can

8:13 order, you know, a size or two of them and then go no.

8:15 Well, I'd want these ones, not those ones in return for

8:18 nothing. Like, it's such a good business.

8:19 It is well done. The iconic.

8:21 Yeah. You wanna sponsors?

8:22 Go for it, be happy. Anyone.

8:27 Anyone. At this stage, we'll take it.

8:33 We're not desperate. Actually, Speaking of which, we

8:37 had a really lovely person buy us a coffee today, this week.

8:42 So if anybody would like to buy us a coffee, they can do, you

8:45 can do so via Buy Me a coffee.com/two Crime Besties

8:51 from Terry Shannon who bought us a coffee.

8:53 So thank you so much Terry. We really appreciate the

8:56 support. It doesn't, it doesn't go

8:58 unnoticed with us that people have actually put they're hard

9:02 earned money and decided to buy us a coffee with it.

9:05 So thank you. So grateful.

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9:09 listeners. All of them.

9:11 Fantastic. But yeah, people particularly

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9:15 fabulous 'cause it makes it all worthwhile.

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9:32 Yeah. Well, for us on Tiktok, we've

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9:35 So yeah, the more we build up that base, the better it is too.

9:38 The comments section in the Tiktoks at the moment is really

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9:42 That's great. And feel like people are getting

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9:58 It's good. Yeah.

10:00 Yeah. Very good.

10:01 Should we get into the episode? Let's let's really dive in

10:04 because oh wow, we've got a lot to discuss and I really, I'm so

10:08 keen to hear your perspective on things and on this one and like.

10:12 I don't know. So when I normally research, my

10:15 general pattern of what I do is at the start of the week, I

10:19 really listen to as many things as I can, watch what I can, and

10:23 then sort of towards maybe Tuesday, Wednesday night, we

10:27 always record on a Friday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday

10:30 night. I'll then write my notes.

10:32 Yeah, because that's how I sort of organize all of that

10:34 information in my head. And I'll go back over things

10:36 that I'm wasn't quite sure of or things I wanted to find out more

10:39 information about. This case I have I couldn't do.

10:43 That because. There was just so much and

10:46 there's so many different accounts of all these different

10:49 things that have happened. So I actually ended up just

10:52 doing what you normally do. And I got out like a note in my

10:55 phone, a note, the note app in my phone.

10:58 And I've just, as I was hearing things, I'm literally writing

11:01 like notes to prompt my memory. Yeah.

11:03 And then last night when I was looking over those, I'm like,

11:05 fuck, this is so fucked up. Some of the things I've written,

11:10 I'll, as we get to them, I'll let you know what I wrote down

11:12 because I actually just can't even believe some of these

11:15 things came out of these people's mouth.

11:16 No, no, this is it. It's the the whole everyone in

11:21 this is a bit fucked up and I have to admit.

11:24 So from the get go, as I said earlier, I knew about this case

11:28 and knew that there was, you know, that people had very

11:30 strong, a strong feeling of this case and I knew that she'd been

11:33 acquitted. We can go there already that,

11:35 you know, there wasn't anyone accountable for this.

11:38 But, and so when I came into it going, oh, now I'm going to deep

11:41 dive the case in some ways, stupidly, not knowing the

11:44 concept where the case was at, I immediately went to the most

11:48 recent documentary thinking that's where like the most

11:50 recent thing that will have the most up to date information.

11:54 But by doing that, I jumped so far ahead of myself.

11:57 Well, not well ahead of the case of like knowing the like the,

12:01 the sequence of events, I guess that I got into that document,

12:05 the latest documentary, which is by from Casey Anthony's

12:08 perspective, called where the truth lies.

12:13 Wrong name. So where the truth lies.

12:16 And I immediately was already going.

12:21 I don't know where I think I land on this it.

12:25 I cannot. I feel exactly the same way.

12:27 And I remember, like in watching that documentary, it's a 3

12:30 parter, Yeah. And each episode's like an hour

12:33 and a half. So it's a decent amount of

12:34 content, yes. Like I just was like what the

12:37 fuck is actually going on here? My immediate reaction to the

12:40 demeanor of Casey Anthony as a person is that she's such an

12:45 actress. Every I do not believe a word

12:47 that comes out of her mouth. I her her alone.

12:51 Sorry, don't believe anything she says.

12:52 There's just a gut instinct of like you, there's something

12:55 wrong. She's performing.

12:56 She's performing. However, then there's other

12:59 people around her that then put forward things that I go, Oh,

13:03 crap. Like if you're you're an

13:05 intelligent person, you're you know that I have to pay a little

13:07 bit more attention to this and I do put more, you know, value in

13:11 what you're saying. Yes, Yep.

13:12 However, my immediate reaction to this Casey Anthony person on

13:16 the screen, Speaking of me going there's something wrong with

13:18 you. I immediately then without

13:21 knowing history and all of it, I went there is there is something

13:26 something traumatic has happened to you as a like you don't end

13:28 up being a person at that age of you know, in all of this or

13:32 whatever going on. You don't end up being a person

13:35 who lies the way you have lied from very young without there

13:39 being something wrong with your upbringing.

13:43 Childhood something, yeah. So that even then not knowing

13:47 again, not knowing what what then comes out of all this going

13:51 well, then then there has to be some maybe some truth in that.

13:54 But I. Don't know.

13:56 I don't know. I don't know.

13:57 Let's talk. It through let's let's.

13:59 Get going with it. So just to for anybody who

14:01 doesn't really know this case, yeah, we've basically got Casey

14:05 Anthony, who had a baby. I'm just going to give like,

14:08 yeah, high, high level here. Yeah.

14:10 She had a baby named Kaylee at 19.

14:13 At the age of 19, Kaylee went missing and was then her her

14:18 skeletal remains were then found.

14:20 Yeah. And Casey went to trial for the

14:24 murder of her baby, of her child, of her two year.

14:27 Oh, she was just three, wasn't she?

14:28 She turned 3 whilst she was missing.

14:30 So, yeah. And was acquitted.

14:34 So that's, that's a very high level.

14:36 Very. My God, there's so much.

14:37 So. Let's get it going.

14:39 Let's So Casey was born to dad George Anthony, who was born in

14:44 1951, and Cindy Anthony, who was born in 1958 in They were

14:50 married in 1981 in Niles, OH after work after a meeting at a

14:54 hospital where Cindy had worked in So George was a police

14:59 officer. At Cindy Cindy was a nurse a.

15:01 Nurse yeah. And they both were throughout a

15:06 lot of the goings on in in what we're going to be talking about.

15:10 So keep that in mind because I think that definitely has, it's

15:13 something to keep. Something to keep in mind,

15:14 particularly like so George Anthony, who was a police

15:17 officer, but I do believe when they moved down to Florida, he

15:21 was then working in security. He wasn't a police officer

15:24 anymore. I believe for a short time and

15:26 then I think he joined the police force and he became a

15:29 detective. Then right, Okay, yeah.

15:31 So in March of 19. So on the 19th of March in 1986,

15:36 Casey Marie Anthony was born in Warren, OH the family.

15:40 She also had a brother named Lee, and the four of them

15:44 made-up. You know, this fairly typical

15:46 American family Lee is. Older than her, just just.

15:50 Isn't he? Yeah.

15:50 I think they're quite close in age, but he is older, so they've

15:55 moved. They, you know, they live in a

15:58 fairly typical, you know, suburban house.

16:02 Quite, you know, they did reasonably OK for themselves.

16:06 Like, yeah, like they were, you know, very nice neighborhood.

16:09 Yeah, yeah. And really nice homes.

16:11 Yeah. They had a swimming pool in

16:12 their backyard, like an above ground swimming pool.

16:16 But you know, it was kind of very, I don't know, everyone, I

16:18 feel like in the 80s and early 90s had, you know, had the above

16:22 ground pools. It's like, you know, you don't

16:24 really see them anymore, No. Or people try to decked around

16:27 them or something. But yeah, I, I still remember we

16:30 had a family friend who had an above ground pool.

16:32 We bloody loved that thing. Climbing up the ladder and

16:34 jumping in off the side. Yeah.

16:36 Best, yeah. Best thing ever.

16:37 And the water going over the edge, like yeah, yeah, bombed

16:40 in, yeah. Or doing the Whirlpool.

16:42 Oh. Yes, I loved a Whirlpool got

16:44 that is so much fun. I forgot.

16:47 About about doing Whirlpool, Oh yeah, that's the best in So

16:53 Casey went to Colonial High School and in 2004 she actually

16:58 failed to graduate. She never actually graduated

17:00 high. School, this is where like this.

17:02 Still. Starts really like she yeah, she

17:06 was lying to her parents about going to school.

17:08 Yeah, to the point where like even when the school then called

17:11 it out and called her parents and said, look, we're coming up

17:14 to graduation, but Casey's not going to graduate, She hasn't

17:16 been in attendance. Casey had an explanation for her

17:20 family for that, saying, Oh no, it's the school's fault, it's

17:22 not mine. They messed up my scheduling and

17:25 so I have been attending what I could, but because they, like,

17:28 put my classes on at the same time, I couldn't get to the

17:30 other class. So that's their fault, not mine.

17:35 So then Mum enables this and says that's OK, we just won't

17:41 tell anyone. Literally, literally no, we just

17:43 won't tell anyone. We'll even still continue to

17:46 hold a graduation party for you and Casey and accept all the

17:50 gifts from family because graduation over there is, I

17:52 reckon, a whole lot. It's a bigger thing over there

17:54 than it is here. Definitely.

17:55 We had. We have American friends, Yeah.

17:58 And when they graduated, they sent us these like, it was

18:02 almost like a wedding invitation for the graduation invite.

18:06 And the expectation is that you give them money to, like, start

18:09 their college journey and all of that sort of stuff.

18:11 Like 20 first, yeah. Basically.

18:13 It's a really, really big deal. Yeah, really big.

18:16 Deal to graduate my God high school.

18:18 Yeah, but it is. Yeah.

18:20 So it's not something that, I mean, we celebrated here, but

18:23 not in that way. No, not like gift giving like

18:25 that. I mean, it's not.

18:26 I mean, you might get a gift from your parents, something for

18:28 graduating, but like I mean this was like family and friends were

18:31 expected, expected to give gift. Party.

18:33 Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so they, they, they just

18:36 her mom and her just went. No, no, we just keep, we carry

18:39 on as if it happened. And I also believe George didn't

18:41 know, No, she didn't, that she hadn't actually officially

18:44 graduated. What we wouldn't think what

18:46 happens, we go to the ceremony like, isn't there like a?

18:48 You would think so. Where they throw their hats?

18:50 Yeah, and their mortar boards up.

18:51 And it just doesn't. I don't know.

18:52 Nothing makes sense, but yeah. But see.

18:54 This is this is all plays into it.

18:57 It's just all things that are going to build to what we we

18:59 know eventually happened. Absolutely.

19:01 From 2004 to 2006, Casey worked for it was called and it was a

19:05 company called Event Imaging Solutions and it was owned by

19:09 Kodak like the the photo company.

19:12 Does anyone actually even know what?

19:15 I do because I worked at a company that did that we.

19:17 Talked. About that in.

19:18 Last week's episode with you developing of the photos.

19:20 Yeah. So she actually worked at

19:22 Universal Studios at one of the rides taking, you know, taking

19:25 photos on the right. Yeah, she was literally the

19:27 kiosk of like the photos. It was on the Incredible Hulk

19:29 ride. That's right.

19:30 Well done. Good memory.

19:32 So again, keep that in mind. Her job was working at Universal

19:36 Studios. Fine, great, no worries.

19:38 She earned a salary of about $20,000 a year when she worked

19:41 there. So it was basically a minimum

19:43 wage type job. But she was straight out of high

19:46 school. So 20 grand was, you know, a

19:48 good step in the right direction to kind of get all that going.

19:52 December of 2004, Kaylee is likely conceived.

19:56 Do you want to talk to what we think we know about Kaylee's

20:00 conception? Well, there's been there's many

20:03 stories that Casey has given on this.

20:04 Yes, so she falls pregnant. I believe she was 18 when she

20:08 actually fell pregnant, but 19 by the time she had that's

20:10 right, Kaylee, but she was dating a guy by the name of

20:12 Jesse at the time throughout her pregnant, a lot of her

20:15 pregnancy. And she basically led him to

20:18 believe that he was the father. And but he did have a paternity

20:21 test done eventually and he was ruled out as the father.

20:23 That's right. So not the father.

20:25 Another story, Kate, that Casey told was that this the father

20:28 was a guy who ended up having a car accident and died.

20:33 But since then she has also said no, that's not the case.

20:38 In the most recent documentary of hers, she is.

20:41 And this is the first time her parents have ever known about

20:43 this is when in 2020 actually coming 24 by the time they

20:46 actually even heard this information, they've watched the

20:48 original documentary that they heard this, this being the

20:52 allegation of how she was conceived her.

20:55 So basically Casey is now saying that she was raped at 18 and

20:59 that and that Kaylee was a result of that rape.

21:01 Yeah. So.

21:02 But who knows? Which is it?

21:04 We don't actually know. Don't know.

21:05 So that's the father of Kaylee. But then there's also the fact

21:08 that she fell pregnant. She tried to hide it herself for

21:12 a very long time, but it got to a point, obviously, where she

21:15 was showing and clearly pregnant.

21:18 And her mom being a nurse, like, I mean, she picked up pretty

21:20 quickly that her daughter was pregnant.

21:22 But again, the two of them banded together and heed that

21:25 information. People, literally family

21:27 functions were coming up and congratulating Casey like that.

21:30 She's pregnant. And they would say, oh, no, no,

21:33 she's not. She's just bloated.

21:35 Oh, come on. What?

21:37 But all OK, few things that really irk me about that first

21:41 thing. Yeah, we all get bloated, but we

21:43 don't look pregnant. Oh, not, not that pregnant.

21:45 No, she was. So I think this was when she was

21:49 about seven months along. So you are like, and it doesn't

21:52 go down. Bloating comes and goes.

21:54 You know. Yeah, this Tom wasn't going

21:57 anywhere. She.

21:57 Was really pregnant? Yeah.

21:59 What the fuck were they gonna do when a baby came along?

22:02 Like it's pretty fucking obvious that she was.

22:05 Pregnant, yeah, I mean, they didn't hide the child when she

22:07 was born, so like, I don't understand they.

22:10 Didn't they announced her? Birth.

22:12 But this to me, it really indicates a bit of narcissism

22:16 from mum. Mum is a very interesting

22:19 character, very interesting. Person rolling very controlling.

22:22 10th degree. And George also says that in

22:25 later documentaries and stuff he admits that she is very

22:28 controlling. Oh, you can tell by Even so, her

22:31 demeanor in interviews and that kind of thing.

22:33 She is so controlling. You think she's like that in

22:35 front of the camera. What should it be like behind

22:37 Closed door I? Don't know that my take on her

22:40 actually is that you she's exactly who she is on camera as

22:44 she is behind closed door. I don't actually know that she

22:46 actually has the ability to change.

22:49 So I kind of give credit to that in that, you know, if that's if

22:52 she is being who she is and she's not hiding any of it, OK,

22:55 I don't know. But if it does get even worse,

22:56 holy fuck. Like, that's bad.

22:59 But she's, yeah, very clearly controlling.

23:01 Which, I mean, part of me is she's a nurse.

23:04 And in those sorts of roles, you need someone who's going to be

23:06 in control of a situation for sure.

23:07 She's done something in her life that, you know, use that to the

23:10 best of her ability. But with her daughter and the

23:14 perception of their family, she's gone ultimate level of

23:18 control. And I do wonder whether with

23:23 Casey falling pregnant at 19 and and obviously with the look at

23:27 how she how much she loved Kayleigh and she and genuinely

23:31 there was love there. I wonder whether she really just

23:34 took on the factor like she's my child.

23:37 Casey's doesn't really isn't the mother here and kind of took

23:41 over. She even said that in one in a

23:45 in a snippet of an interview I saw and I feel like it was with

23:49 the Today show or one of like an American the American Today show

23:53 or one of those type of shows. Yeah, so she admits it.

23:56 She basically said, well I knew I'd have to take Kaylee on

23:59 almost as my own because my baby was having a baby.

24:02 Yeah. And look, a level of me kind of

24:04 goes she's 19. She's 1919.

24:06 Is not that 16 year old falling pregnant.

24:09 Yeah, I think yeah, you're gonna have to be, you know, a mother

24:11 to this child because like, that's a child having a child.

24:14 But 19, she's got a few more he's behind her and you're gonna

24:17 have to really actually support her being her, the mother of

24:19 this child, you know, not be the mother of them, you know, like,

24:22 yeah, it's. Yeah.

24:23 She needed to support Casey and being a mum, yeah, to Kaylee,

24:27 not not being a mum to Kaylee. Yeah, I think there's a big.

24:32 But that's not the role she had the ability to do.

24:33 Yeah. And that's not the role I think

24:35 Cindy, no, she certainly took it more so took a lot, a lot of

24:39 responsibility in some ways. But then in other ways, she did

24:43 leave Casey to her own devices sometimes.

24:46 So and, you know, let her work out childcare arrangements and

24:49 work out different things. I mean, we, we know there's

24:52 conjecture around all that too, but there were.

24:54 It's not as though she took full 100% responsibility for Kaylee.

24:58 But I do, I think there's a little bit of like as much as

25:01 you say she let Casey do that, I actually think Casey got to a

25:04 point of like, I've worked out how to manipulate my mom a bit

25:07 well. She does say that in that

25:08 documentary, doesn't she? She's, I think she was actually

25:10 more so like I that's that stuff.

25:12 When those arrangements were made without Cindy being

25:16 involved, that would have pissed her off.

25:17 Yeah, I, I really think that was Casey like trying to take

25:21 control back. Trying to rebel a little.

25:23 And yeah, and whereas Cindy wasn't really happy with that

25:25 when she. And so she was constantly trying

25:26 to battle with Casey in terms of the control over Kaylee, yeah,

25:29 which would have been very difficult.

25:31 I could and I can empathise with.

25:33 Yeah. With Casey for that.

25:36 Yes, yeah, agreed. Agreed.

25:38 Yeah, probably the only time I might say that.

25:41 Yeah, throughout this time as well.

25:43 So in 2006, a different company at Universal Studios took over

25:49 all of the photography. Yeah.

25:50 And so Casey lost her job. She.

25:54 I think it was end of 2006. She lost her job.

25:57 Yeah. And yes.

25:59 Yes. And she basically had nowhere to

26:03 go. But she still let her family and

26:06 friends and anyone who asked to let them believe that she worked

26:11 at Universal Studios. So much so that she told people

26:14 that she was actually working in the events team there.

26:17 She wasn't. No, never, never did.

26:20 Never did. She worked for an events company

26:24 and only by name that was owned by Kodak, who did the photos.

26:29 Yeah, that's, you know, I feel like with Casey, for every lie

26:34 she told, there was an element elementary to it.

26:36 Yes. And that's what makes it so hard

26:39 to unpick and to actually figure out fuck what is.

26:42 Actually, what is the actual truth here?

26:43 What is true there is always, and that's the thing you've got

26:46 with everything that's that happens.

26:49 You've got to hunt for that little minor detail that could

26:52 be the truth in it, and then eliminate the rest.

26:55 That's it. But yeah, and so this universal,

26:58 the job, so she was telling everyone she was still working

27:01 there. So she had no money.

27:04 She was convincing everyone else she still had this job.

27:05 For whatever reason, she continued this lie, why she

27:08 couldn't fest to anybody and say, Oh my God, it wasn't like

27:11 she did the she did the wrong thing here and like quit the job

27:14 or anything like that. She was let go because the

27:17 company wasn't running it anymore.

27:19 Yeah, so not that's not her fault.

27:20 Why not just say crap like I'm in a spine here.

27:22 I've got to find another job. Yeah, no, she lied to everyone,

27:25 said she's still working there. She would disappear on like go

27:27 out that every day and as if she was going to this job and return

27:31 home as if she's been working all day.

27:32 Like to the degree of like, Mum, you need to take Kaylee because

27:36 I'm exhausted. I've been working all day.

27:38 She had been. Looking up for a kid all day.

27:40 So fair that she was exhausted after that too.

27:42 God, but she was then she had no money.

27:45 Yeah, she had. She stole from her family and

27:48 from her friends. Yeah, which is just awful.

27:50 One particular, which was a family friend.

27:52 I don't know how close they were specifically Amy that she stole

27:56 her cheque book and wrote herself cheques so that she had

27:59 money to. Do this to the tune of like 4 or

28:01 $5000. Yeah, over, over a period of

28:04 time. Period of time.

28:05 Because she stole a similar amount of money from her mum and

28:07 dad. Yeah.

28:08 And she was living with her mum and dad at the time.

28:11 So they were fully, fully supporting her.

28:13 They didn't. She wasn't paying.

28:15 Bored. There was nothing like that

28:16 going on. So Kaylee and Casey were living

28:20 under George and Cindy's roof. Yeah, and they were fully

28:23 supporting her. But they thought she was going

28:26 to work and earning money, and she wasn't.

28:29 She was just stealing it. Then April 2008 she meets a guy

28:36 and she starts dating a guy by the name of Oh gosh Lazaro.

28:40 Tony. Lazaro Yeah.

28:42 So yeah, the the relationship seemed pretty.

28:46 It was fairly new. It was going well together.

28:49 What, two months when, yeah, Kaylee really went missing?

28:53 Yeah, so it was a fairly new relationship and I love this

28:55 little he had he lived in a like a house share situation.

28:58 Yeah, with some housemates and one of the guys described

29:01 meeting Kaylee for the first time and I just think this is

29:03 adorable. He so he said that Casey had

29:06 she'd been hanging around for a while, but then on this

29:09 particular day she brought Kaylee with her for the first

29:11 time and in walk through the door walks this 2 1/2 year old

29:15 with Sonny's on and goes Hey dudes.

29:19 You can imagine it like the attitude.

29:21 How gorgeous. Yeah, and he said, he said,

29:23 described her as just being, you know, a really gorgeous kid, not

29:27 out there. Like she hid behind her mum as

29:29 well, you know, and was like very attached to her mum, but at

29:31 the same time had some real spunk about her.

29:33 And yeah, wrote an absolute adorable kid.

29:35 Yeah, they describe Casey's interactions with Kaylee as well

29:39 as overwhelmingly positive. Yeah, they said, you know, she

29:42 was doing flash cards with her. And really trying to build up

29:45 her vocabulary and really working with her as most mums

29:50 and dads do. She was really trying to give

29:53 Kelly the best start in life. And they said they only ever

29:55 observed positive interactions with Kaylee and Casey and it

30:01 seemed to them like Casey just doted on her daughter and and

30:06 lived for her daughter. Really.

30:08 That was the perception. That was the perception at the

30:09 time. It absolutely was that that was

30:11 what they thought was. And everyone does say that.

30:14 And I think we need to, you know, you take that on that, OK,

30:17 Everyone was saying she was a great mum.

30:19 Part of me again, does the whole where's the lie and where's the

30:22 truth? Even with even that, I I wonder

30:25 whether that was for perception only or I don't know and you

30:29 don't. We don't know.

30:30 We don't know her. You want to think positive

30:32 things when you can get them, but she doesn't herself no

30:35 favors. Yeah, because she lies

30:37 constantly. Yeah, so Tony Lazaro was a club

30:42 promoter. That was his job.

30:43 And so Casey does say that, you know, around this time of

30:47 meeting him, which was in 2008, she did start to do some work

30:51 for him as well. So she would go to club nights

30:55 and whatever and help him sort of promote these clubs and, and

30:58 different bands and whatever was going on.

31:00 And yeah, so she did start to sort of earn a very small income

31:05 at this time, but it was nowhere near enough to really support

31:10 her or Kaylee. So just keeping that in mind.

31:14 So on the 15th of June in 2008, which was Father's Day in the

31:18 United States, Kaylee visits her great grandfather in a nursing

31:24 home with Cindy and Cindy takes what we now know is the last

31:30 known photo of Kaylee on that day with her great grandfather.

31:34 So with Cindy's dad, Kaylee and Cindy return home and go for a

31:39 swim in the backyard pool. We know that they, you know, it

31:44 was a it was a nice day. It's sort of coming up for

31:47 summer and they had a really lovely day.

31:51 Day by all accounts. Casey spent the day that day of

31:56 Father's Day with her boyfriend, Tony Lazaro at his house.

32:00 OK, so now we are at on the day. July 16th, 2008 Is that the day?

32:08 Well, I was going to say June. Oh, you.

32:09 Want to go back? Yeah, go.

32:11 Or do you want? To go to July 1st, well.

32:14 I guess there's just so much like what happened on that June

32:16 16th, isn't it? Like there's a lot.

32:18 OK, well, So what we know, OK, let's let's go to July, I think.

32:22 OK, let's go to July 16th, 1st then.

32:24 All right, cool. What we know is there were 3911

32:27 calls placed by Cindy Anthony basically reporting her almost 3

32:34 year old. Oh, she would have been 3 by

32:35 then. Yeah, 3 year old granddaughter

32:38 missing. Well, she even the original call

32:40 is actually so Cindy. So let's actually let's go back

32:44 a little bit. Yeah.

32:46 So in June, Kaylee and Casey leave the Anthony home and say

32:51 they're going to Jacksonville with Tony Lazaro.

32:56 Yep, so there are her family are under the impression that OK,

33:00 she wants to go and do this. She can't.

33:01 They can't stop her obviously like you know that she's away,

33:05 but Cindy is calling her everyday trying to get touch

33:07 with her granddaughter, all those sorts of things.

33:10 But on July 16th, when Cindy finally, she actually finds out

33:14 that no, Cindy, I'm sorry, I'm getting all these C.

33:16 Names. I know there's so many C names.

33:18 Casey and Kaylee never went to Jacksonville.

33:20 They've been in Florida the entire time.

33:22 Like they've only been down the road, walks away.

33:25 It's really not not far away. So she goes to Charlie Lazaro

33:28 house pretty much drags Casey and Casey, not Kaylee Casey home

33:34 and she's they've taken. So this whole time she's been

33:37 gone, she's had the car, everything like.

33:39 The family, the. Family car, like it's not

33:41 Casey's car, it's the family car.

33:43 So she's had the car, all these things previous that she'd

33:45 stolen so much stuff from their family.

33:47 So she drags her home and calls the police to basically, I think

33:50 to scare the shit out of her really well you can wear her

33:52 heads out on. That first 911 call, Cindy is

33:55 trying to scare her, I think. Yeah.

33:57 And I I. Really feel you're gonna I'm

33:58 gonna like follow through on this and I.

34:00 Feel like she didn't think she was going to do it.

34:04 No, Because she basically said she's like, well, you know, my,

34:08 my granddaughter's been missing. I haven't heard her from her in

34:12 over a month. Yeah.

34:14 Or in a month or something. And I've been trying to call my

34:16 daughter and I've spoken to my daughter throughout that time,

34:19 but she's never let me talk to my granddaughter.

34:21 And I told her I was going to do this.

34:23 I told her I was going to call the first.

34:25 The first of is even more. It's actually less around the

34:27 fact that Kaylee's missing. That's the car.

34:29 It's the car. It's like I need someone to come

34:31 and arrest my daughter, this person in my house for Grand

34:33 Theft Auto for stealing the car. She's more concerned around

34:37 that. Really weird in that first 911

34:38 phone call she doesn't say my daughter stole my car.

34:42 No, or even I have a person here who.

34:44 Needs to be arrested. I know my daughter stole my

34:47 fucking car. Come and get her.

34:48 Yeah, I think, I think that's where like I get a little bit of

34:51 a side of a of like, I don't really want to do this, but I

34:53 need, I need Casey to hear me making this call to like scare.

34:57 Herself I do understand. I do.

34:59 I get it on that level, like, oh shit, not used to being someone

35:03 who calls the police to have someone arrested.

35:05 What do you how do you speak? What do you say to get this

35:07 happening? How do I trigger this?

35:09 But without being too over the top, because I actually don't

35:11 want anything, any consequences of it.

35:13 I just want to have the scare that this might be what we do

35:16 like. And I think I my take on that

35:18 call is that Cindy believes that Kaylee's fine and is is with a

35:23 nanny or whatever Kate Casey has told her at that point.

35:28 And it's not until as those phone calls progress and that by

35:32 that third one where it's like she's just finally admitted that

35:37 no, no, she's not. She doesn't know where she is.

35:39 She seen. Her for 31.

35:40 Days, 31 days, she hasn't she. It wasn't this morning that she

35:42 handed over to a nanny. She's not here.

35:45 That she doesn't know where she isn't for 31 days, she doesn't

35:47 know where she is. That you hear the panic well and

35:52 truly in Cindy's voice. Oh.

35:53 She's she's almost. Beside herself, yeah, can't.

35:57 And again, not being not speaking clearly enough for the

36:00 the not answering the questions that need to be asked.

36:02 She was offered her own tangent because in her brain, I think.

36:05 Oh, she, I think she just had a in a breakdown basically.

36:09 Whereas. The 911 operator in that third

36:11 phone call asked to speak to Casey.

36:13 Yes. And Casey gets on the phone.

36:15 It is compelling. Completely different like

36:19 demeanor. Demeanor from what?

36:20 Where Cindy's at, which just kills me.

36:23 She's totally detached completely.

36:25 She basically Casey base, the operator says tell me what's

36:29 going on. And Casey said I haven't seen my

36:31 daughter for 31 days. And the operator's like, well,

36:34 where do you know where she is? And she said, well, yes, I know

36:38 she's with. Fernandez Gonzalez Fernando

36:42 Gonzalez. She pulls out this name like

36:45 it's. Like just at the yeah, she knew

36:48 this name. Yeah.

36:50 She then they then say, well, where is she?

36:54 And she says, well, I don't know.

36:56 I've been looking for her for 31 days.

36:58 And the operator said, well, what have you been doing?

37:00 And she says I've been doing, I've been doing my things.

37:03 I've been, I've been investigating it in my own way.

37:07 She doesn't actually answer the no.

37:09 She actually does not answer anything.

37:11 No, she tells her. What she wants to know,

37:13 frustrating anyway, So the 911 operators like, Yep, well,

37:18 we've, we've actually already got uniform officers coming to

37:20 your house who think they're there to investigate a Grand

37:23 Theft Auto. Car that's gone, yeah.

37:24 Been stolen not. They then get there, well, she's

37:26 on this phone call and they're like, they've now faced with a

37:30 missing child, a missing toddler case.

37:34 Well, that's just boiling out of water.

37:35 But obviously they then get detectives to come in and, and

37:39 it all kind of starts going on from there.

37:42 So what Casey says happens. So do you want to go back now to

37:47 the 16th? Of now, Yeah.

37:48 Now to what? Her explanation of June 16th.

37:51 Is and the family well? At this point, yeah, go with

37:54 what she tells the police at this point of what has gone on,

37:56 I reckon. OK.

37:58 Yeah, What she says is that she, so George Anthony was home on

38:03 the morning of the 16th. He had an afternoon shift at, I

38:07 think he had to be at work by about 3:00 PM that day.

38:10 He says that Casey left the house with Kaylee at about 12:50

38:14 PM Casey's phone records show that she remained in the area

38:19 actually for many, many hours up until after 4:00 PM Yeah, at at

38:27 on that day. Yeah, yeah.

38:30 We then also know that Casey's seen at a Blockbuster Video

38:33 store with Tony Lazaro at about nearly 8:00 PM that night.

38:37 Kaylee is not with her. OK, Yeah.

38:40 Do you want to go through what Casey says happened?

38:43 Yeah, in that day. So Casey says that she left the

38:47 Anthony home and went and dropped Kaylee off because she

38:51 was she was going to work, going to work at Universal Studios

38:54 where she hasn't worked in two years.

38:55 But that's fine, we'll just go with it.

38:58 So that she was going to work at Universal, Universal Studios and

39:01 when she worked there, she would always drop her child off at a

39:04 nanny called Zenaida Fernandez Gonzalez Gonzalez.

39:09 Yep. Now how does she know this

39:10 nanny? Well, that would be my mate

39:13 Jeff, who I work with at Universal Studios.

39:16 He has a child named Zach and he was using Zenaida as his nanny

39:21 and so said, well, why don't we pal up and use that same nanny

39:25 and we've been using the same nanny forever and we both drop

39:27 our child off at Zenidas or sometimes we go to Jeff's house

39:30 and we drop them off there. But this?

39:32 House is better set up. It's better set up.

39:33 Yeah, it's. Got a room that each of them can

39:35 sleep in during the day? Detail so much.

39:37 Detail so then so she's dropped her child off with so Kaylee off

39:42 with Zenida at this apartment building where she lives and

39:47 then gone to work at Universal Studios and then when she's

39:51 returned or she's even sorry during the day she called

39:53 Zenaida that morning and spoke to her on the phone apparently.

39:57 But then later in the day while she was at work, she called

39:59 Zenaida again and got a this phone call.

40:02 This phone number is out of service.

40:04 Yes, and since that point on has never been able to contact her

40:06 again. Yes, and all covering all of her

40:09 bases. Yes, and all she really knows

40:11 about Zenaida is that she's got family in Jacksonville.

40:14 And New York. And New York, well, her brother

40:16 lives in New York, and, you know, she grew up in New York,

40:20 but the rest of her family live in Jacksonville.

40:22 Her two sisters. University, that's what.

40:24 Yeah, she studied there. The the amount of like

40:26 information she pulls out about this woman who, spoiler alert,

40:30 doesn't exist yeah, is unbelievable.

40:33 They're the lying and. Cracking believable, but I love

40:36 it how in in court they refer to her as Zanny the nanny.

40:40 Zanny the nanny. Oh gosh, it doesn't, actually.

40:43 It doesn't exist. So when the police, this was

40:46 what Casey's account was from the 16th of June, 16th of July,

40:51 they're now obviously investigating Kaylee as a

40:54 missing person. So they say to Casey, they're

40:58 looking into her story. So one of the first things they

41:00 do is do a search on this Zenaida person.

41:04 They, they actually, sorry, I think they found maybe 14 people

41:09 with that name in all of the United States.

41:12 But one of them did happen to live within 20 miles of the

41:15 Anthony house. Yes.

41:16 So they go to this person very quickly eliminate that.

41:19 It's her. It's 100% not her.

41:22 Also, they bring that woman, this Zenida Gonzalez, they bring

41:26 her in for a lineup and Casey can't pick her out.

41:29 So it's clearly not the person you're leaving your bloody

41:32 child. 2 year old and this is it.

41:33 To this day, Casey Casey Anthony still says this woman exists.

41:36 Yeah. And that the police just have

41:37 not looked hard enough for. Her haven't found her.

41:39 They haven't. They're not looking for her

41:40 three names. She sometimes she goes by

41:43 Zenaida Gonzalez, sometimes she goes by Fernando, sometimes she

41:47 goes by this. Name and she sometimes goes by

41:49 Zani. Zani.

41:50 Yeah. It's just she's So what?

41:52 Combinations. Have they actually looked?

41:53 At actually looking properly for her.

41:55 Yeah. She doesn't exist.

41:57 Oh, so at this point, whilst they're like investigating this,

42:00 of this story of hers in the background, they, they let Casey

42:03 sort of go and think that they believe her.

42:06 And then what they say to her is like, right, we need to go and

42:08 talk to people at Universal Studios.

42:09 So like this. Where's Jeff?

42:11 You know, we need to talk to him.

42:12 Yeah. Who else do you work with?

42:13 Oh, Juliette Lewis. Oh, Juliette Lewis, this is my

42:16 favorite one. And they're like, so they go to

42:18 Universal Studios and the the security guard who like is meant

42:22 to let them into the parking lot.

42:23 He's like, I don't have a Casey Anthony here because.

42:26 She's actually also for the corporate building.

42:29 Not even like she never worked in corporate as an event

42:32 manager. Wasn't.

42:33 Ever an employee of Universal? She was an employee of Kodak,

42:36 yes. So she doesn't come up on their

42:39 system. No, Juliette Lewis doesn't come

42:41 up on their system. Fantastic actress, by the way.

42:44 Yeah. Love her.

42:45 Yeah. But she hasn't been an event

42:47 manager either at. Universal Studios.

42:50 Nor has anyone by that name, whether it's the Juliette Lewis

42:53 or not. No.

42:54 And this Jeff Hopkins, that's right, She didn't.

42:58 She wasn't quite sure which department he worked in.

43:01 Right. So anyway, they go, they gain

43:03 access because obviously. They're they kind of push their

43:05 way and they. They make sure that they we

43:07 need. To get through we should go in

43:08 anyway. We're cops.

43:08 We'll just my. Favorite scene?

43:10 Love this. Casey walks into the office

43:12 building, she's like waving at people and people are waving

43:15 back at her because if someone waves at you, you do wave back.

43:18 Have you ever had that awkward situation where you're out in

43:20 public and someone waves and you wave back and you're like, oh

43:22 fuck, that was they were waving to the person behind me or

43:25 beside me or that wasn't me? More than I'd like to admit, I

43:29 tend to do that. I think it's just human nature.

43:32 If someone waves to you, you kind of wave back.

43:34 I mean, I'd always do the whole I must know you, but yeah.

43:37 Hi, yeah, I don't want to be rude.

43:39 I won't be rude. Like, yeah, yeah.

43:41 So all these people just waving back at her and like, yeah, we

43:43 know you, I think. And the cops who were with her

43:45 or like, they already knew she never worked there.

43:48 Yeah. So they were just kind of

43:49 waiting. Waiting how they wanted to

43:51 really make her uncomfortable and really put her in the fire

43:53 of like, you're gonna have to fess up to us that you're

43:56 telling lies now. I don't put her in it.

43:58 Yeah, but they literally they walked around for 25 minutes

44:01 around those buildings, her looking for her office.

44:03 Yeah. What?

44:04 Huh. So eventually and the cop said

44:08 so stone faced no like panic about her whatsoever.

44:11 All of a sudden after 25 minutes turns around and goes, oh, look,

44:15 actually I don't work here. I haven't worked here in two

44:17 years. And they go.

44:19 We know. Yeah, we know that.

44:20 They then arrested her, took a line to the police.

44:24 Police, they took her into a room at Universal and

44:27 interviewed her there. And you can actually there is

44:29 video recording of this, this exact, it's an interrogation at

44:33 this point. They're furious.

44:35 Like, well, they're furious. So what they've what they've

44:37 uncovered is that she's lying. Well, what they already knew was

44:40 that Jeff Hopkins. Number one, absolutely.

44:42 Well, Jeff Hopkins, who she's talking about that, you know,

44:45 is, is connected to this, hasn't not only does he not work at

44:48 Universal Studios anymore, he hasn't worked there in six

44:51 years. And he doesn't have a kid.

44:53 Doesn't have a. Children.

44:55 Like the stuff that she's just pulled out, she's unbelievable

44:58 with this lying. She's so like, she's good at it.

45:02 I don't want to give her credit. But yeah.

45:04 But. She is, She is so.

45:05 Good. Amazing at it.

45:06 So yeah, they basically do arrest her at that time, not

45:09 only for the false information that she's given to police, but

45:13 also for child neglect, because at this point, obviously she has

45:18 not done anything about a child who's been missing for 31 days.

45:22 Yeah, she hasn't reported her missing.

45:24 There's no proof that she's done anything in order to actually

45:27 find her. And when she does finally talk

45:28 to the police about it, she's told them blatant lies.

45:31 Because the other thing is they've denied her a apartment

45:34 that she gave the address for. They went there.

45:37 No one has lived at that address for more than two months, Not

45:41 even like back to June when she supposedly dropped off this

45:45 child a month even more. Prior to that, no one had lived

45:48 there. Her friend Amy had lived at one

45:52 point, you know, in that same. And so there's that element of

45:55 truth that goes in there and. That's how she knew to give an

45:57 address because her friend had lived there at some.

46:00 Point gave one that she knew a rough estimate of, yes.

46:03 And so I gave another apartment in the same block or whatever,

46:05 but that particular one, she knew no one had lived there for

46:08 two months. Yeah.

46:09 And certainly nobody had ever in that ever in the history of all

46:14 records for that building by the name of Zenaida, by the name of

46:17 Gonzalez, by the name of Fernando, Nothing.

46:19 No, no has. Been attributed to the rental

46:23 for any of those not buildings at all.

46:26 No, they've been, they've been checked.

46:28 Sorry. They were also at the apartment

46:29 building. They did check CCTV and there

46:31 was no CCTV footage of her of Casey arriving with Kaylee to

46:35 drop her off in any of those apartments.

46:38 Like they have CCTV of all of the car parks and there's kind

46:41 of like stairwells going up to like external stairwells going

46:44 up to the front doors of these apartment buildings.

46:47 And the CCTV, you can see every corridor, every stairwell.

46:51 There is no sign. And they looked not only on that

46:54 day, on the day that she dropped her there, the 16th of June,

46:58 they looked a month, a month before.

47:01 Yeah, as if this was the nanny she used.

47:02 Consistently and she'd never been there and a month after to

47:06 see that this Sonata may be taking Kaylee somewhere or, you

47:09 know, whatever. Nothing.

47:10 And there was no interruption in the CCTV footage.

47:14 It's not like they missed a day or someone's over recorded

47:16 something nothing like that. All of the records were legit

47:19 fair and intact. Yeah.

47:22 So it's, it's, oh God, it's just absolutely freaking

47:26 unbelievable. Yeah, but they do believe at

47:29 this point. So when they're interviewing

47:30 her, they, the cops, you can sense by this interview that

47:33 they have with her at universal there at that moment that they

47:36 are they their understanding is that this is a mother who's not

47:41 panicked by her missing child. So they're feeling like, OK,

47:46 she's like, Kaylee's alive, We just need to get the freaking

47:49 information out of her. So that's where they're

47:51 frustrated. They're actually thinking that

47:53 this isn't they're looking for a dead child.

47:55 They really do honestly think that that a woman who is not

47:58 panicked about this, she knows something and isn't telling us

48:01 enough. We need to just find this kid.

48:02 Yeah. So what the police then decided

48:05 to do was, okay, let's look at Caseys life for that 31 days

48:09 that her child's been missing. Yeah, so they go through Caseys

48:12 planner. I mean, we're going back into

48:14 the days of Myspace now. So there's photos and things and

48:18 posts that she's made on Myspace.

48:21 There's photos on people's, you know, friends and whatever's

48:24 digital cameras and stuff. Yeah.

48:25 There's photos from the club promotion nights, there's

48:27 Facebook posts. Yeah.

48:29 Yep. She basically her social life

48:31 became busier than prior to Kaylee's.

48:35 Kaylee got missing because when you're the mom of a 2 year old,

48:38 you don't really have a huge amount of time for a social

48:41 life. No, you're with your child.

48:43 If you're not at work, Yeah, you're with your kid, basically.

48:45 Yeah. But so in that month, you know,

48:48 preceding the discovery that Kaylee was missing.

48:53 So, yeah, before July, you know, we can see that Casey's social

48:58 life certainly picked up. She's certainly not a troubled

49:02 mom trying to find. A kid.

49:03 No, there's CCTV. The police did an amazing job in

49:06 investigating this. Yeah, they went through CCTV

49:09 footage of, of shops that they knew Casey had frequented from

49:14 bank statements and stuff. They knew where she'd been

49:15 shopping. So there were, there were time

49:17 points of her say at Target. They go and get the CCTV from

49:20 Target. You can see Casey, she's there,

49:23 she's buying beer, she's buying women's clothes, she's buying

49:26 food items like chips and dips and salsas, kids stuff.

49:30 Like kids? Stuff and also Kaylee is never

49:33 with her. They I saw I reckon at least 10.

49:36 Yeah. CCTV individual videos where

49:42 she's doing these types of things out and about and Kaylee

49:45 is never with her in those 30 days.

49:47 Tony Lazaro, housemates. They also stated like that

49:50 Kaylee Casey bought Kaylee with her at least two to three times

49:54 a week prior to this, June 16th. Yeah.

49:57 So they would see her pretty regularly.

49:58 Yeah, literally from that point onwards for those 31 days, they

50:02 never saw Kaylee. Kaylee did not, did not come

50:05 with her. She was coming over and being

50:06 and more often coming over and spending a lot longer there and

50:10 no Kaylee. She spent three weeks there.

50:12 Yeah, three solid weeks there without them seeing Kaylee.

50:15 Not at all. Yeah.

50:17 And it's not like Casey provided an explanation as to where

50:21 Kaylee was. It just wasn't spoken it.

50:23 Just wasn't spoken about. And like, I find that a little

50:25 bit interesting. No one said, hey, where's Kaylee

50:27 like? But then I guess those two

50:28 blokes, they would have been so much younger and they were a bit

50:31 like, you know, I mean, I guess they, they were housemates.

50:33 They weren't friends. We'd smoke in, haven't,

50:35 whatever, chill. Doing their own thing and and

50:38 you know what? It wasn't on them to question

50:40 it. It really.

50:40 No, it wasn't at all. No, they were just, they were

50:43 just the house mates. Yeah, we should say the cops

50:46 obviously then looked very, very closely at Tony thorough we

50:50 because at this point where they've arrested her at

50:51 Universal, they then obviously take her back and she she's put

50:55 into prison and we're not prison yet, but jail I guess at that

50:58 point holding so situation and she makes phone calls from the

51:02 jail. Now in Florida, their laws are

51:05 wack in some ways, but it's amazing for us because we get a

51:08 lot. So it is all public.

51:11 All these things you can actually go and find all these

51:13 recordings online. Just go on search, you'll find a

51:16 whole lot. But so you can listen to these

51:18 recordings of these phone calls she makes from the jail.

51:21 One of them in particular is her first phone call out of jail

51:24 when she's after this arrest at Universal.

51:26 And it is mind boggling, but at the end, because the only thing

51:30 she wants out of this phone call of calling her home at the

51:32 Anthony home. So she speaks to her brother

51:34 Lee. She speaks to her mother, yes,

51:36 and she speaks to Christine. I think it is her friend who's

51:39 her best friend, her best friend and all she wants from all three

51:42 of these people who are like, shit, Casey, what's where's

51:45 Kaylee? What is Kaylee?

51:46 What's going on? Casey's only mindset is give me

51:49 get me Tony's number. I wanna speak to my boyfriend.

51:52 So they, the cops take that information and go, hey, well,

51:55 we need to look at the boyfriend.

51:57 So they looked very much into him and ruled him out very

51:59 quickly that he didn't have anything to do with it.

52:01 And has literally of all the people involved in this, you

52:04 really can't find anything about Tony Lazaro.

52:06 He has separated himself from this entirely, which all credit,

52:10 obviously he had nothing to do with this.

52:12 No so, but she was gung ho on that phone call.

52:16 All I want is Tony's number. Give me Tony's number.

52:19 My heart broke in that the best friend particularly, who clearly

52:23 had a real attachment to Kaylee, as I can imagine being young and

52:27 having one of your friends have a kid, your auntie, like pretty

52:30 much like that's how she would have been.

52:32 And she was desperate. She was.

52:34 If there's something happened to Kaylee, I'd be heartbroken.

52:36 Like, you know, and she breaks down and cries and Casey's

52:39 reaction is, oh. Seriously.

52:42 And this friend Christine? Yeah, she says to Casey on the

52:47 phone. She said why are you so calm?

52:50 Like because she can't. Understand herself.

52:52 Yep, she is. She is reacting how a parent

52:56 should. Yes.

52:57 Whereas Casey is she literally is frustrated that, oh, why are

53:00 you being so dramatic about this?

53:02 Like it's the the level of like, oh, I just.

53:06 Can't, and Cindy's beside herself in.

53:08 Yes, and leave too. Yeah, brother.

53:10 They just, they're like, what is going on?

53:12 Tell us we need to. Know and the way her brother

53:15 speaks to her in that I've it's really telling I think too he's

53:18 clearly he's so frustrated and it's it's not frustration of

53:21 just this point in his life to me that phone call says I've had

53:24 to deal with you being this lying annoying person my whole

53:27 life freaking stop this ghetto I need you to stop now and just.

53:31 Tell us where the time. Now's the time to stop.

53:33 Cut the shit. Cut the shit.

53:35 Yeah, I can. You can really sense the

53:37 frustration in him. Yeah.

53:39 He seems to be quite the same person, to be honest, in all of

53:42 this. Yeah.

53:45 Yeah. Oh, my gosh.

53:46 Oh. My God, it's just, it's just

53:50 horrific. It's absolutely horrible.

53:52 Oh no. She also during that 31 days,

53:55 sorry just quickly, Casey also got a tattoo on her back

53:59 shoulder saying Bella Vita Bella a beautiful life.

54:03 Excuse me, you're fucking 2. Year old missing.

54:06 It's not a beautiful life. Her explanation for that in the

54:09 most recent one, it just killed me.

54:11 I can't. That's one thing I can't even

54:13 can't consolidate in my brain. In no way whether her story in

54:18 that is true or not, that tattoo does not make sense for me.

54:22 No, she's now gotten rid of it. Yeah, well, she's had it covered

54:26 up. Yeah, she's covered up like.

54:28 And Mandala and and she and she said something about, you know,

54:30 some. Yeah.

54:31 And it's a tribute to Kaylee. Yeah.

54:33 Oh fuck off. Get her name tattooed then.

54:36 Like don't. That's she.

54:38 You can't cover up Kaylee with Bella Vita or Bella Vita with

54:42 Kaylee. I guess just it's, it's

54:46 disgusting. That, that one's my clincher for

54:49 me to be honest, that that tattoo, tattoo, I don't know

54:53 where your brain is at to get that when your daughter's

54:56 missing. Yeah, to even consider getting a

54:59 tattoo, like a memorial tattoo is fucking weird.

55:02 Yeah, when you don't. But I guess what I was going to

55:07 say before was that in all these video recordings that you see of

55:10 her, there's just she has absolutely no shame.

55:15 Oh, none. Whatsoever there's everyone's

55:18 calling her out for these lies, she never misses a beat, she

55:21 never reacts of like she stays at that same level the entire

55:27 time and her story will just then manipulate and change to

55:29 fit another narrative. It's she never can.

55:33 Make up a lie on the spot is incredible.

55:35 She never, ever goes. Oh, yeah.

55:37 Like, you know, you've caught me and like, yeah, OK, I've lied.

55:39 She never, ever, ever, ever does that.

55:43 She's she's, I mean, so we know she's obviously gone through a

55:47 trial and so obviously there was extensive personality tests

55:54 administered on her and, you know, all of those tests to

55:59 determine whether or not she's a psychopath, sociopath, whatever.

56:02 None of them came back that she's any of those things.

56:07 But she's absolutely a compulsive liar if nothing else.

56:10 Yeah, I, I, I can't, I can't reconcile that for then what she

56:18 says happened because which we will get to in a second, but I,

56:25 I, I can't actually get that right in my brain.

56:28 No. Why do you need to lie if you

56:31 have a have the story already? Yeah, What what are you trying

56:35 to what are you trying to hide in amongst all these lies?

56:38 Like that's what gives. I just think she's got 0

56:41 credibility to the point where you were saying even in that

56:45 documentary that's supposed to be coming from her perspective.

56:50 You watch it and you're like, well, I can't believe a single

56:53 word that comes out of your mouth.

56:54 No. There's nothing about her as a

56:57 person that makes me want to believe her.

57:00 Yeah. And I'm.

57:00 And that's coming from me watching that as a very first.

57:02 I didn't know all of it watching it, you know?

57:05 Yeah. That's not from like seeing

57:07 months and years of her. Yeah.

57:08 Presenting this. Yeah.

57:09 That was my first full take of her as a person that I went.

57:13 I don't believe a word that's coming out of your mouth.

57:14 What? What there's, she just performs

57:17 every, every word out of her mouth is not genuine.

57:20 Yeah. There's something really quite

57:22 wrong with her. I, I that sounds awful, but I

57:25 think there is honestly something really quite wrong

57:27 with her. Yeah.

57:30 Just really quickly as well, I think we didn't mention, you

57:32 know, how Cindy made the 3911 call.

57:35 Yes, in the second call she says something that really does

57:39 pertain to this case. I was.

57:41 Literally going there too. Oh well, you no.

57:42 No, yeah, I saw my notes. Yeah.

57:43 She basically said that they, they were able to repossess the

57:48 car because, well, Casey's story is that she ran out of fuel and

57:54 she parked. She got two guys who helped her

57:57 push the car off the side of the road and then her dad went to

58:00 pick up the car. When they, when he got in the

58:03 car, she had been transporting 3 bags of rubbish in a pizza box

58:08 and then she'd gotten rid of 2 bags of rubbish but didn't get

58:12 rid of the third bag. So there was like a smell of

58:14 rubbish in the car and there'd been meat in there.

58:18 So like, it did smell pretty bad and the pizza box was obviously

58:22 smelling pretty bad. But OK, that's that's Casey's

58:27 side of the story. In the 911 call, her mum says it

58:31 smells like there's been a dead body in that car.

58:34 And she says it, distressed. Oh.

58:35 She tone beside herself. And she's a nurse.

58:38 She's a nurse. She knows.

58:40 The smell of decomposition. Yeah, that's.

58:44 As does George. George was a detective.

58:47 Yeah, I'm sure he came across many a dead body in his time.

58:50 Yeah, that's a point of like, it's a big conjecture point too,

58:56 in the case of, like, whether or not that smell is, you know,

58:59 recognizable like that. Yeah.

59:02 And one explanation for the rubbish in the car is that that

59:07 smell was already there and she was trying to mask it.

59:10 Or give a reason. For it?

59:12 Yeah, Give a reason for it. Probably more than even a mask

59:14 it. Yeah.

59:14 But putting that that apparently her car was parked near a

59:16 dumpster for a long period of time.

59:19 So the thought is that maybe she'd grab a bag out of there

59:22 and put it in her boot, because who drives around with that?

59:23 Why don't you just go, that stinks.

59:24 Get it out of my car. Or you put your rubbish in your

59:27 household rubbish bin. Well, this is it.

59:30 So where are you taking weirdly? Enough.

59:31 Why is it in your car? Why is it in the car anyway?

59:33 So there is thought that maybe she'd grab that out to put that

59:36 into. Well, well, to give, to give a

59:39 reason, to give a reason for the smell, Yeah.

59:42 There was also a stain in the boot of the car that's, you

59:45 know, could it was a brown stain, a very dark, deep brown

59:48 stain. Yeah, she said that was just

59:51 like juice from the rubbish bags.

59:55 Yeah. Yeah.

59:56 And the other, so the other thing that was that was they,

59:58 they did, the police did. Take possession of the car quite

1:00:01 quickly at that point to investigate the car because of

1:00:04 this smell. That was apparently even when

1:00:06 the officers arrived, they smelt that smell too.

1:00:10 Yeah. And I believe that if you have

1:00:11 smelt the smell of decomposition, there is nothing

1:00:14 like it. Well.

1:00:15 This is not that's my understanding as well.

1:00:18 It was actually another documentary I watched with this

1:00:22 woman. I really love her and and the

1:00:23 guy that she does. What do they do?

1:00:24 The oh God, what's the podcast that's gonna really annoy me.

1:00:28 But they did a documentary together.

1:00:31 It's going to really frustrate me who they are.

1:00:32 Now you'll know. You know who they are.

1:00:33 She's English. She's she's from Scotland Yard

1:00:36 and he's an ex FBI. Profile.

1:00:37 Yes, I know exactly who you're talking about.

1:00:39 Yep, Yep. So they did a really strong

1:00:43 breakdown of all the evidence in this and it what where it all

1:00:46 landed. And so the people they spoke to,

1:00:49 the experts on this, of this smell and people saying that,

1:00:52 that it's really distinctive. And when you've smelled it,

1:00:54 you've never, you know, they talked about the fact of how can

1:00:57 you differentiate between that being a human decomposition,

1:01:01 animal decomposing or rubbish. And there was varying opinion on

1:01:06 that. So I think what they were saying

1:01:08 in that is that there are certain chemicals that get

1:01:11 released by different things that so that would make up that

1:01:19 smell, right? And it's in there in varying

1:01:23 levels depending on what it is that's decomposing.

1:01:25 So whether it's a human body, animal tissue, which is very,

1:01:29 very similar in composition of of the types of smell.

1:01:31 So they're things like these chemical compounds are things

1:01:34 called, they're called like putrine and cadaverine and stuff

1:01:39 like that. And but there's cadaverine, I

1:01:42 believe is in like minute amounts in coffee.

1:01:45 And it gives coffee a nice smell, that type of thing.

1:01:48 Right. But in these massive amounts in

1:01:50 a decomposing body, obviously it's it's disgusting and we

1:01:53 can't stand the smell. Yeah.

1:01:54 It's a very different smell to me than a smell of like garbage

1:01:57 decomposing. Yeah.

1:01:59 So the only thing I can kind of like give a personal sort of

1:02:06 reference to is when a few years ago we were at Phillip Island

1:02:10 and we came across. The.

1:02:14 Body of a beached whale. Yeah.

1:02:17 And have I spoken about this before on the podcast?

1:02:19 I I just remember the smell was so bad of this decomposing

1:02:25 mammal that I don't think if I smelt that again, I would know

1:02:30 that smell. Yeah, it's, it was unlike

1:02:33 anything I'd ever smelt before. It was so disgusting.

1:02:35 And I've like, I work in pathology.

1:02:38 I smell really bad things all the time, but it's not like

1:02:43 that. That was decomposing tissue.

1:02:47 Yep. It's, it's not a pooey or wee,

1:02:50 you know, it's not, it's not a bodily smell.

1:02:53 It's a completely different thing.

1:02:54 Yeah. And I'm sure a human body

1:02:56 probably smells a little bit different to that too.

1:02:58 Well, they did a really interesting experiment on this

1:03:01 documentary where because obviously a Godiva dog, he he

1:03:05 alerted to the boot of this car of be having that sense.

1:03:09 That's that scent of decomposing body.

1:03:12 And they did this really interesting experiment with a

1:03:14 Godiva dog where they gave, they put in the boots of cars in this

1:03:18 lot and one of them was decomposing human parts,

1:03:22 whatever they used, I don't know.

1:03:24 And then another one there was decomposing animal parts and

1:03:27 another boot of a car randomly was rubbish and meat smells,

1:03:32 whatever like kind of thing. So they put them in different

1:03:35 cars in this lot and then let the dog go to do its thing and

1:03:40 it only alerted to the human. Yeah, because, but see the the

1:03:44 argument to that in court was that the cadaver dog is only

1:03:51 trained for that specific scent profile.

1:03:54 Yeah. So what that kind of confirmed

1:03:58 though, is if you've smelt that smell, then you know what that

1:04:01 smell is? Yeah.

1:04:02 Do you know what I mean? Yeah, totally.

1:04:03 But the defense tried to basically say, well, that kind

1:04:07 of means nothing because we've got a similar chemical

1:04:09 composition in the in this one or this one.

1:04:12 It it meant they they tried to argue around all of this to to

1:04:16 no. Availability.

1:04:17 The one thing I will say is, which I think this argument can

1:04:20 be put to anything really, is that the dog will alert to any

1:04:24 human like decomposition. You can't prove it was Kaylee.

1:04:28 So the only thing is that to me, the argument with it is at some

1:04:31 stage a dead body. And to the point of like what

1:04:33 the guy explained was that it can literally be a dead body

1:04:36 that's been laid there and sat there for an hour or two or a

1:04:40 week or a month, or it can be as little as an hour or two or so.

1:04:44 And that smell will be there and retain there for a very long

1:04:47 time. So yeah.

1:04:49 So basically at some point in the the year, the lifespan of

1:04:54 that car, a dead body had been placed there.

1:04:58 You can't tell say it was definitely within the last few

1:05:00 months. You can't say it was definitely

1:05:02 Kaylee. Like can some a previous owner

1:05:05 have potentially had a dead body in the boot of that car?

1:05:09 I don't know how where there's. Smoke.

1:05:11 Though, Well, 100%, I think that that's yeah to me, but that's

1:05:15 not how other people see it. I guess they'll pick apart.

1:05:17 Yeah, yeah. So are we at the point now where

1:05:22 Casey's in prison? So yeah, she's in prison, I

1:05:25 guess. And I guess the next point where

1:05:28 is is where they find her body. Yeah, she's an interesting story

1:05:33 as well. Yep, actually, before before we

1:05:38 do. Just really.

1:05:38 Quickly while she's in prison, Yeah.

1:05:40 So while she's in prison, she basically, I guess she feels

1:05:47 like she needs to figure out what her story's going to be.

1:05:51 Because they do they once they sort of look at her car and a

1:05:54 few other things, they immediately do charge her with

1:05:57 first degree murder. That's the the where they go

1:06:01 with this. So when she while she is sitting

1:06:03 in jail waiting for a trial, there's still no body.

1:06:05 All those sorts of things. And yeah, this is her sitting in

1:06:08 jail waiting for trial basically on 1st degree murder with no

1:06:10 body. Yep, and I guess at the point

1:06:13 when they found Kaylee's remains, they the prosecutors

1:06:18 then decided that it would be a first degree murder death

1:06:22 penalty charge. So.

1:06:24 So October she was charged with with first degree murder.

1:06:28 They actually gave her that before they even found the body.

1:06:30 Yes. So they did jump to that very

1:06:31 quickly. Yes.

1:06:32 So and then obviously the body was found on December 11th.

1:06:34 Yes, and that's when they decided to add the the death

1:06:37 penalty to it because of what they found and how they found

1:06:41 it. Yeah.

1:06:43 So Casey recalls this time in prison.

1:06:50 It's very interesting, the types of things that she says.

1:06:53 But she says because she's finally able to have space from

1:06:56 her mom and dad and her mom's very controlling, she actually

1:07:01 had nightmares and seizures, recalling memories of abuse when

1:07:05 she was in prison, Seizures. Sorry, what?

1:07:09 You had nightmares and seizures and a seizure made you recall

1:07:12 something like what? The actual fox.

1:07:15 So she starts. Now at this point she tells one

1:07:18 of the investigators on her case that she was being abused by her

1:07:23 father. Can I also say that 8.

1:07:26 So she was in quite a secluded area in the prison.

1:07:28 She was kept separate. Solitary.

1:07:30 Well, she was in a solitary cell and she never had any

1:07:33 interaction with any other cellmates aside from I think she

1:07:39 had someone like she was directly.

1:07:40 Opposite her so they would communicate via and they would

1:07:43 like write letters to each other right.

1:07:45 Interestingly, that girl had been abused.

1:07:49 Now that I just find that disclosed, that disclosed and

1:07:53 the next thing she's then disclosing back to her going me

1:07:56 too. I just had a seizure and I just

1:07:59 remembered. Me too.

1:08:00 So I've that's I, that's where the element of truth I think is.

1:08:03 I find that might be the element of truth in this.

1:08:06 Well, the prison mate she's interviewed in that latest

1:08:10 documentary and she actually says she's like, there's so many

1:08:13 elements of what I have told Casey have then become her

1:08:18 truth. But she says it as if, you know.

1:08:20 Oh, yeah, we, we had the same story, but she doesn't see it.

1:08:23 How weird. You and I see it.

1:08:25 No. But I look at that and I'm like,

1:08:27 yeah, because she's fucking just copied everything that you've

1:08:29 said and taken it as you taken it as hers.

1:08:31 Yes. Oh my God.

1:08:35 So what? What Casey claims happened is

1:08:39 that from the age of 8, she was sexually abused by her father,

1:08:43 her lawyer in court. He was in, he was, he was

1:08:46 actually a really, if I am. Lawyer ever.

1:08:48 Yes. On trial.

1:08:49 Murder. I'll call.

1:08:51 Him, get him I'll. Call him.

1:08:52 Yeah. I can't stand him.

1:08:54 Oh, he's bloody good at his job. He's.

1:08:55 A fucking prick, but you would want to grow your side.

1:08:58 You would want him on your side. Yeah, he, oh, he, he's

1:09:03 incredible. But he basically says in one of

1:09:06 in one of the court hearings, what, what was she supposed to

1:09:11 do with her father's penis in her mouth all the time?

1:09:14 Oh my God, actually said that in.

1:09:16 Oh, that I didn't hear that. That's disgusting.

1:09:18 Yeah, but he. Wanted to create.

1:09:21 He wanted that reaction in the jury.

1:09:23 He wanted that reaction in from people to be like Oh my God this

1:09:26 poor girl. Incredible allegation.

1:09:29 What proof have you got of that? You see footage of George

1:09:32 sitting in that trial and he just sits there stone faced.

1:09:36 He doesn't go like. But he is a cop.

1:09:39 Oh yeah, that people cut keep coming back to that.

1:09:42 I I just if that was being accused.

1:09:45 I think if. I was being accused of that.

1:09:47 I don't care what my training was.

1:09:49 I don't care have. You seen the documentary of

1:09:51 their their Oh. God, I'm freaking out the lie

1:09:56 detector I did. I mean, he's a broken man, yeah,

1:10:00 but I still. I don't know what I think.

1:10:02 I really. Don't same.

1:10:04 I don't know. When we were talking about that,

1:10:06 so this is the one little slip up we had during the week that

1:10:08 we were talking about. You said at the very end, yeah,

1:10:11 something came up in that documentary that made you go,

1:10:14 oh, not quite sure. What was it?

1:10:16 Do you mean in the the lie detector one or the OR her one

1:10:19 in? The lie detector one?

1:10:21 Or was it in her one? Now I can't.

1:10:24 Remember what we were talking about in the in the where the

1:10:27 law, the truth lies one, I think, yeah, 95% of that.

1:10:31 I'm like, I can't believe where that comes out of her mouth.

1:10:33 I can't. I just can't.

1:10:34 She's lying again. And all of the allegations, I

1:10:37 think this is awful. But there were parts of the

1:10:40 things that she used where there's George Anthony at

1:10:44 Kaylee's funeral. Oh my God.

1:10:47 And what he said there? Which I've actually written

1:10:51 there. George's speech in my notes.

1:10:53 George's speech at Kaylee's funeral is fucked.

1:10:56 It is and the language he used in that.

1:11:01 He actually, so Pardon actually says at Kaylee's funeral, which

1:11:05 so Kaylee's funeral was held while Casey was still in prison,

1:11:09 so she was unable to attend. But they held the most

1:11:13 elaborate, basically like state funeral.

1:11:16 They it wasn't a private affair. It was recorded and filmed and

1:11:21 it was broadcast like everywhere.

1:11:23 Like you can see it online. You can watch it.

1:11:25 Yeah. George gets up and makes like a

1:11:29 fucking speech. It wasn't a eulogy.

1:11:32 It was a speech. And he gets up and he says, I

1:11:35 loved the sweet smell of her sweat.

1:11:40 Oh, excuse me. What the fuck?

1:11:45 Casey's take on all of this was that this was him basically

1:11:49 admitting that he was a pedophile and that he was

1:11:51 abusing her. Yeah.

1:11:52 Because he was just re perpetrating.

1:11:54 So sorry. Just going back really a bit

1:11:57 here. Yeah, so when Casey is saying

1:12:00 that her father was doing all of these things to her, and

1:12:03 obviously she's so traumatized by her account, she's so

1:12:06 traumatized by this. It lasted until she was about

1:12:08 12. Then her brother started

1:12:09 sexually assaulting her. Never rape.

1:12:11 Never rape. He.

1:12:12 Never raped her but that one. Well, he said, she says he

1:12:15 groped her. He'd come in and put his hands

1:12:17 up her shirt, that kind of thing.

1:12:19 So that's what that's what Casey says happened.

1:12:23 Yeah, again, both Lee and George deny these allegations.

1:12:28 Adamantly deny it then my thought in all that is then why

1:12:34 the fuck when you had a daughter did you live under the under the

1:12:40 roof of your perpetrator? And why did you let him hold her

1:12:45 and touch her and be around her? She does try and make

1:12:49 explanations for that. I didn't believe one no, but.

1:12:52 That's the thing, I don't didn't believe her and I don't always

1:12:55 want to believe a victim I am. Saying but we, we have said.

1:12:59 This thing I try. Tells you something.

1:13:01 Believing. Yeah, we have said that so many

1:13:03 times before. And yes, in the first instance,

1:13:07 if nothing else had come before this and he knew nothing else, I

1:13:11 would definitely believe her. Yeah, but she has lied about so

1:13:15 many things. And how do you all of a sudden

1:13:16 remember that you were abused when it comes to a time that you

1:13:19 need to defend yourself for the murder charge against you for

1:13:23 the murder of your own child? Especially when.

1:13:25 It's just. Explaining that is that during

1:13:27 that 31 days that it was her dad dictating to her that Kaylee was

1:13:33 still alive and that he had taken care of things and that

1:13:36 she just had to follow his instructions.

1:13:38 And she goes. Well, if that's the case then,

1:13:40 but you didn't know at that point that you'd been abused

1:13:42 when you were a child like you had, but you knew to follow his

1:13:46 instructions and do all the things that he why, why are you

1:13:49 scared of him then? If you don't remember the the

1:13:51 abuse, like I don't know it and I psychologically I don't

1:13:55 understand whether that's possible and how that

1:13:58 disassociation can occur. According to a forensic

1:14:01 psychologist who interviewed her as part.

1:14:04 I think his name was like. Her.

1:14:05 Yeah, I remember him, Yeah. Or KEB, maybe something like

1:14:08 that. He basically said that in

1:14:12 situations of abuse of a minor, especially somebody as young as

1:14:16 eight years of age, you do They do dissociate.

1:14:20 That is a very common response. Yeah.

1:14:22 And then you become incredibly compliant.

1:14:24 Yeah. And you actually end up loving

1:14:26 your abuser because you think that.

1:14:28 You're the safer place to go and.

1:14:30 Your abuser showing you is telling you.

1:14:32 They're showing you love and you're special.

1:14:34 You know it's wrong. Yeah, on some level, you know,

1:14:37 it's. But also, if you go against

1:14:38 them, it's actually putting yourself in danger.

1:14:40 That's. Right.

1:14:40 So there is obviously, there's so much to that.

1:14:43 There is a lot in that. But I don't know it.

1:14:45 Again, I don't actually know what I believe because.

1:14:49 Yeah, she just does has not done herself any favours with the

1:14:52 constant lying that if this is the truth, it's really hard to

1:14:56 believe her. Yeah.

1:14:57 Because, yeah, there were parts of that story then where she

1:15:00 was. I was kind of like getting.

1:15:01 I was by the end of it, I was like, oh, is this there's truth

1:15:05 in this? So I did leave that documentary

1:15:08 going, oh, Frick, maybe he did do this right.

1:15:12 Because in that documentary they very, very much show parts of

1:15:16 George in interviews and in in bits in the courtroom where he

1:15:20 looks bad. Oh, yeah.

1:15:22 And I knew, and I'm not an idiot.

1:15:23 Like I'm watching it kind of going, this is the worst of him.

1:15:25 Like kind of, I understand that. It's probably I'll probably now

1:15:27 go to other places and find things that don't marry up to

1:15:30 that, which is exactly what happened.

1:15:32 Because then after that you go to the documentary where they do

1:15:35 the lie detector test and like they're like he, he look,

1:15:38 they're very odd people. They are very.

1:15:40 I think that there's, and I do think there is an element of

1:15:43 this family have created a bit of an enabling situation of with

1:15:48 Casey being a liar and all these and I do believe that there's

1:15:50 some fucked up shit there to the point of abuse.

1:15:53 I just don't know. And he did pass the lie detector

1:15:56 test, not that that's, you know, they all end.

1:15:59 All as you said, it's not a miscible miscible, it's it's.

1:16:02 Something yeah. And he didn't do just one.

1:16:04 There was three. He did, he did 3 and I think I

1:16:07 think Sydney did one but and they all, they all passed clear

1:16:11 all those those. And they were done by somebody

1:16:14 who was reputable in that space. Absolutely give that credit.

1:16:19 I do and but the things in that documentary that got me were how

1:16:23 broken they are as a family. Yeah, I just remember George

1:16:26 saying in that how he would go out at night and just search for

1:16:30 Kaylee and he was just constantly exhausted.

1:16:34 And even Cindy backs that up. She says your dad, she even says

1:16:39 to Casey and some of those phone calls into the prison, dad's

1:16:42 been out all night again looking for Kaylee.

1:16:44 Do you have Are you sure you don't know where she is?

1:16:46 Like I feel like they definitely think Casey's involved.

1:16:51 Well, that's the thing with the two of them have conflicting

1:16:54 opinions. And I think that that's where

1:16:56 it's broken their family in that sense, because I think George

1:17:02 believes it was Casey. Well, I don't think that he said

1:17:04 it. He said he believes that Casey

1:17:05 was involved in this. Now, Casey would say that he's

1:17:08 saying that because he was the one who did it.

1:17:10 Yeah. Cindy, who spilled the beans on

1:17:13 the. You know, it smells like a dead

1:17:15 bodies being in the car on that phone call, then backpedaled and

1:17:18 tried to defend her daughter and has tried to back her daughter

1:17:20 and be like, no, no, no. I don't believe she would have

1:17:22 done anything to a child now. And I can understand that as a

1:17:25 mother too, that, you know, you speak in the moment of like, you

1:17:27 know, the the truth and then go, oh, that's gonna fuck her.

1:17:32 I've got to help my child now. Now she's I I think there's

1:17:34 absolutely legitimate parenting, you know, stuff going on there

1:17:38 for her. And I do I, I think that she's

1:17:41 trying to help her kid out. Yeah.

1:17:43 And I so I think that she, she wants to believe that she's not

1:17:45 involved, but he's led to the, you know this.

1:17:48 Well, what else am I meant to believe?

1:17:49 Agreed, I think it's worth actually now saying what Casey

1:17:52 says happened on the day and then what?

1:17:55 Yeah, because she keeps changing a bloody.

1:17:57 Story there's there's so much change to the story but I guess

1:18:00 the latest 1 is that on that day she wasn't feeling a Casey

1:18:05 wasn't feeling 100% and decided to go for a lie down.

1:18:08 Kaylee went with her and according to Casey, because she

1:18:13 was abused for such a long time that she was a very light

1:18:17 sleeper. But on this particular day,

1:18:20 maybe because she wasn't well, she had she was in a very, very

1:18:23 deep sleep. Two hours later, she woke up

1:18:26 from that nap and Kaylee wasn't in the room anymore.

1:18:28 They shared a room, but. The TV was still on because

1:18:30 that's what she was watching TV in her room on.

1:18:32 Yeah. And the door was open.

1:18:34 Yeah. And she goes out and says to

1:18:38 George, where's Kaylee? And George is like, well, I

1:18:42 don't know. So they start looking around for

1:18:44 Kaylee and I think Casey, her recollection or her account is

1:18:50 that she was looking inside. George has gone outside and

1:18:54 found Kaylee in the pool unconscious.

1:18:57 And brings Kaylee in his arms to Casey soaking wet and starts

1:19:03 yelling at Casey, what have you done?

1:19:06 What have you done? Like, and this limp child in his

1:19:09 arms who he hands apparently, according to Casey, hands the

1:19:13 Kaylee over to Casey and is basically like, you know, you,

1:19:18 you've done this huge deal with this one.

1:19:21 And then he apparently then takes Kaylee off of her and

1:19:24 says, I'll deal with this. Like, you know, I'll sort this

1:19:27 out. You just take off.

1:19:30 I don't know. Well, basically Casey then says,

1:19:32 well, I had to get out of there, so she went to Tony's house.

1:19:36 So then and George did whatever with Kaylee.

1:19:39 That's Casey's accounts and. According to Casey, then, every

1:19:43 day from that point, George was ringing her, telling her what to

1:19:47 do, Yeah, and how to live, Yeah, and to not just keep going.

1:19:50 And Casey reckons that she was led to believe by George that

1:19:55 Kaylee was alive and OK. She.

1:19:58 Saw she actually, but see, this is where there's another

1:20:00 conflicting account, because in that documentary she says I knew

1:20:05 when I held her that she was dead.

1:20:06 She was a dead, she was a dead weight.

1:20:08 She there was not. There was no train.

1:20:10 To her, as Cindy has stated, both Casey and George are CPR

1:20:15 trained, George due to being in the police force and Kate and

1:20:20 Cindy had actually expressly said to as a nurse had said to

1:20:24 her as a mother now you need to know CPR of how to look after

1:20:27 your child I mean. Very responsible if you found a

1:20:30 child deceased or like in a pool limp call call 911.

1:20:36 That would be, that would be your number one, because you

1:20:40 would hold out hope that they could bring her back or whatever

1:20:43 they could get charged. On your arms.

1:20:44 Someone can get here and help me and?

1:20:46 Fix this you through CPR over the phone like even if even if

1:20:49 she wasn't trained, which we know she was even if she wasn't

1:20:52 George was there George he could have done it.

1:20:54 She they, they see the 911 operators, 000 operators that

1:20:59 makes. Sense to me that whole scenario

1:21:01 it doesn't make sense that him as a cop you he would know

1:21:04 procedure in that and that look yeah this sounds freaking awful

1:21:07 that if if that's what happened she drowned in the pool he would

1:21:11 know this isn't a murder charge. This isn't something you're

1:21:14 gonna get in trouble for We an accident has tragic accident has

1:21:17 occurred. You do everything you can in

1:21:19 your power. And then we then, unfortunately,

1:21:22 we are going to grieve a death in the family.

1:21:24 And that is awful. But there's no point in this

1:21:27 where I go. Oh, yeah.

1:21:28 George would have like, you know.

1:21:31 Like, oh, let's hide the body, yeah.

1:21:33 But that's where I think that's where, sorry, that's where then

1:21:36 Casey's story then changed. That's what was presented in

1:21:39 court. Now what she says is that

1:21:43 George, she thinks that Kaylee didn't drown in the pool.

1:21:47 George did something to Kaylee sexually abusing her and it's

1:21:51 gone wrong and she's died. So what she thinks happened is

1:21:54 that Kaylee was probably about to call out or making noise

1:21:58 while George was sexually assaulting her that he then put

1:22:01 a pillow over her face, probably suffocated her, and then needed

1:22:05 to come up with a story to kind of cover his tracks.

1:22:08 So he's put her in the pool. Yeah, so that she looked like.

1:22:10 She so she looked like she drowned and hopefully like if

1:22:13 the police were called I guess and the ambos came, they would

1:22:17 be like, well this is a child drowning.

1:22:18 No further investigation. Required, even if that is the

1:22:21 truth. Again, why would he?

1:22:23 Then they just kept the cover of the story in that.

1:22:26 Well, no, in that case I understand why George didn't

1:22:28 wanna call the police. You know, because to me, like

1:22:30 you've still got. If you do an autopsy on her,

1:22:32 there'd be no water in her lungs if she was deceased before you

1:22:34 put her in the. Pool OK, but maybe they wouldn't

1:22:36 have done an autopsy if they just like assume.

1:22:37 Like, oh, they would have done an autopsy.

1:22:39 You would have to. You would absolutely have to.

1:22:41 Yeah, in a child like that, you would do an autopsy.

1:22:43 OK, Well, he would have known that, yeah.

1:22:44 Yeah. So in that case, I still can't

1:22:47 understand why Casey didn't. Why didn't?

1:22:48 Because in that story, she's still there.

1:22:50 Yeah, and she knows CPR. She knows CPR.

1:22:52 And she can access the. Child.

1:22:54 Absolutely. Oh, just, I don't know, this

1:22:58 whole thing, It's so. So fucked up.

1:23:01 It is. It's this poor little girl at

1:23:04 the centre of all this too. What has she gone through?

1:23:07 Oh honestly, because what they found when they found the

1:23:11 skeletal remains of Kaylee, which was only found, what was

1:23:14 it? A couple of 100.

1:23:15 Oh, sorry, quarter of a mile away.

1:23:16 Quarter of a mile away from their house in some in like a

1:23:19 wooded area. It is basically like it is.

1:23:23 Swampy Bush like jungle like at that point.

1:23:27 You can't see that far in front of you like the photos.

1:23:31 It is dense, swampy forest. Yeah.

1:23:33 Yeah. Bush or not Bush.

1:23:35 Yeah, Forest. How everybody was discovered is

1:23:37 a bit interesting. So, yeah, so the phone call came

1:23:41 through on December 11th and now we're talking we've moved

1:23:45 changed seasons and so this area is slightly more accessible in

1:23:49 December than it is earlier where they were doing mass

1:23:52 searches. But that area don't don't

1:23:54 believe had even been searched because of a number of reasons.

1:23:58 Apparently due to the way Casey gave the story that she was had

1:24:02 been handed to a nanny, their search area wasn't necessarily

1:24:06 around the the Anthony home it was.

1:24:09 Even though that's where Kaylee was last seen alive.

1:24:13 Yeah, I I find that very interesting.

1:24:14 But that's sort of their explanation as to why that area

1:24:16 hadn't been searched thoroughly. But.

1:24:19 From what I can gather as well, where she was found was

1:24:22 basically impenetrable by foot. And they had been told not to go

1:24:26 anywhere where there was standing water because that's

1:24:28 unsafe for. Those alligators.

1:24:30 Looking Yeah. So they had been told not to do

1:24:32 that and this this particular area would have been standing

1:24:34 water at the time. So there's not So there's there

1:24:37 is a number of reasons why this area wasn't searched when they

1:24:39 first started looking for him. But by December 11th, it was a

1:24:43 different lay underground. It was able you're able to reach

1:24:46 in there a little bit easy. So this guy pulled up in his

1:24:49 truck. He'd been where he worked for Oh

1:24:51 my gosh, like telecommunications was the.

1:24:53 Company. I believe so, yeah.

1:24:54 So he pulled up and he needed to go to the toilet, caught up at

1:24:57 this point and walked in through this bit of bushy ground, found

1:25:00 spot to urinate, went and did that.

1:25:03 He took with him a stick of some sort from his particular thing

1:25:07 he uses in his job. And as he's walking back out

1:25:09 poked and prodded at this bag that he'd seen and picked it up

1:25:13 and picked up the bottom of the bag a little bit and out rolled

1:25:18 a skeleton, and a very small one for child's size at that.

1:25:22 Which is awful. So he immediately contacts his

1:25:25 boss, who contacts police, and the police come in and they find

1:25:30 the remains and very quickly from that point they do identify

1:25:34 the body, unfortunately, as being that of Kaylee.

1:25:37 The way the bones were found, they were really interesting.

1:25:40 So that again, there's still conjecture around this too.

1:25:43 It's, it's absolutely fucked up. But her, her bones were wrapped

1:25:47 in a Winnie the Pooh blanket, which we know matched the

1:25:50 bedding in her house at the Anthony home.

1:25:54 And then it was in a plastic garbage bag, which had been duct

1:25:57 taped together, sealed duct tape around the top.

1:26:01 Yeah. The duct tape becomes a sticking

1:26:06 point in the trial because what the prosecution say is that

1:26:10 Kaylee's mouth was duct taped and that Casey had suffocated

1:26:15 her. That was their that was their

1:26:17 theory that Casey had suffocated her using this duct tape because

1:26:21 Casey wanted a life without a child.

1:26:24 She wanted to go out and socialize and party and do all

1:26:27 of the things that other 19/20/21 year olds do without

1:26:32 the ties of a young baby or a young child.

1:26:35 So that's that's the case that they presented.

1:26:39 A really interesting thing came out in court.

1:26:42 Lee, Casey's brother, was called to testify and he actually

1:26:48 testified that in the past when they'd had family pets that had

1:26:53 been that had died and they were burying them in the family sort

1:26:57 of in the yard or whatever, George would actually wrap the

1:27:01 animal in a blanket, put it in a garbage bag and tie the garbage

1:27:06 bag with duct tape and buried in the backyard.

1:27:11 Which, yes, George did that. Casey would have seen him do

1:27:17 that as Lee did, Sure. So again, I don't I think that

1:27:20 rules out either of them. I think, I think it gives us no

1:27:24 more information. Other than that, that's

1:27:25 something in the home that was done.

1:27:26 Yes, that. So then this is the thing that

1:27:28 all those elements that were found like the Winnie the Pooh,

1:27:30 the blank blanket, the duct tape, which we then then find

1:27:34 that that duct tape. There's other that duct tape is

1:27:36 is found that same brand if it is found in the home, but also a

1:27:40 laundry bag that was there, this white laundry bag which it can

1:27:44 be bought in a it's bought in a set of three and there were two

1:27:47 found in the home. Yeah, so exact same brand, all

1:27:51 those sorts of things. So the items that were found

1:27:53 with her the the IT shows it that.

1:27:57 She died at the house. At the house and that that's

1:28:00 where she was brought to was where she was dumped.

1:28:02 But so we're not ruling out any of those people who lived in

1:28:05 that home again. So it's not it's.

1:28:08 Not a smoking gun. That's the thing we do.

1:28:10 We. It's so, yeah.

1:28:12 It's crazy. But the other interesting part

1:28:14 about the bones being found was that so this all happened that,

1:28:18 you know, bones we found December 11th.

1:28:20 You know, all this is it's ramped up with the case and that

1:28:22 thing. So because they're moving

1:28:22 towards trial. But it then comes out that Roy

1:28:27 Cronk, who was the guy who found the bones, he, this was not the

1:28:32 first time that he had contacted the police and had found

1:28:35 Kaylee's bones. So he had actually called three

1:28:40 times prior to this. This was the 4th time that he

1:28:42 had contacted police about this back in August.

1:28:47 He had been in that area and had seen something.

1:28:51 And I contacted police and said we're in, I was in the area of

1:28:55 the Kaylee Anthony home and there is a bag in this spot and

1:29:00 it's got some interesting shaped items in it that I can see.

1:29:03 I haven't touched it. You need to go and check it out.

1:29:06 Yeah, yeah, sure. We will.

1:29:08 They didn't. He rang the following day and

1:29:10 said, does anyone been down there to check that?

1:29:12 Because I really think that's something that needs to be

1:29:13 looked at. Oh, yeah, yeah, we'll look at

1:29:16 it. Yeah, yeah, no worries.

1:29:17 No, On the third day, he got really frustrated and he rang

1:29:21 again and he goes, I'm down here now.

1:29:23 I need an officer down here to meet me and come and have a look

1:29:25 at this because this is, I think this really needs to be looked

1:29:28 at. So an officer goes down there

1:29:30 and meets Roy Cronk at the scene, takes one step in and

1:29:35 goes, I'm not fucking going in there.

1:29:38 Yes mate, you're really wasting our time.

1:29:40 I don't understand why you're wasting our time.

1:29:41 This is ridiculous. Turns around, goes away.

1:29:48 So interesting enough on its own that he has contacted that many

1:29:51 times then. Yeah, back in December, by the

1:29:53 time this is still going and still going on, and he goes,

1:29:56 he's like on his way, doing his work going.

1:29:57 That's been ignored at that point.

1:29:59 Well, I've got to go urinate anyway.

1:30:00 I'll go in that site where I've been looking.

1:30:02 I've seen things. And that's why he prodded a bit

1:30:03 more, is what he's saying That by the time he got there, then

1:30:05 he's like, no. No, I took the stick out of his.

1:30:07 Back with him everything that's why he did that was he's like

1:30:09 no, I'm going to prove this myself thing because I think

1:30:11 that this is something. And he was right.

1:30:13 Yeah. Now the the defense decided that

1:30:17 oh he's got something to do with this and they actually accused

1:30:21 him of moving the bones or and and taking them away and putting

1:30:25 them back there or having them and doing something being like

1:30:28 the culprit of all of this. He's none of that.

1:30:31 They threw. They were just trying to throw

1:30:33 reasonable. Doubt, and it did throw

1:30:34 reasonable doubt, although again in this document I was talking

1:30:37 about, they did a really thorough look at in terms of the

1:30:41 bones and how they were found and the way that the growth of

1:30:44 things were around the bones. The fact that there was Ivy like

1:30:48 growing through parts of them and how long it would take for

1:30:50 that to occur, the decomposition and all those sorts of things of

1:30:53 how long those bones have been sitting where they were,

1:30:55 regardless of him poking and prodding and moving things where

1:30:58 these bones ever moved from that site.

1:31:00 And it was very clear that it would take at least five to six

1:31:02 months for that amount of growth to occur on the stand.

1:31:06 Though some random expert, and I'll put that inverted commas,

1:31:09 said that it would only take two weeks.

1:31:11 To. Grow for that growth to occur.

1:31:13 Come. On I mean, I just where do they

1:31:15 find these people and how that that frustrates me in terms of

1:31:17 the court system of like putting someone on the stand that

1:31:21 clearly had no idea what she was talking about.

1:31:22 I really, I, that throws me. I'm entirely like, it's the poor

1:31:26 jury trying to make these decisions.

1:31:27 Then you've got people being able to be set on a stand as if

1:31:30 they're experts and giving really false information.

1:31:32 I mean, as a layperson, and I've mentioned this before, I'm not a

1:31:35 gardener, but I would look at that and go, there's no way that

1:31:38 would be two weeks worth of growth.

1:31:39 No, no. I don't know how that was ever

1:31:42 allowed. And how the jury were like, Oh,

1:31:44 yeah, yeah. Well, they weren't they, you

1:31:46 know, like, Oh no, I'm confused. Well, we don't, we don't know.

1:31:51 We don't, Well, we don't, we don't know.

1:31:52 But they look, they probably it could have gone out of the way.

1:31:55 Actually, it legitimately could have gone out of the way for

1:31:58 them. Yeah.

1:31:59 The prosecution offered a plea bargain to Casey. 20 years in

1:32:07 federal prison with no death, death penalty.

1:32:09 She said no fucking way because she is 100% innocent.

1:32:15 Mate. Even if your story is true, the

1:32:19 story that you're telling the court, you are not 100%

1:32:23 innocent. No, no.

1:32:25 You've still hidden the fact that your child is missing.

1:32:28 Yeah, you've hidden the fact that your child is likely

1:32:31 deceased. Yes, which is, well, I find

1:32:34 interesting. So at the end of this,

1:32:36 ultimately what's added to her charges, She was.

1:32:39 So she was charged with first degree murder, aggravated child

1:32:42 abuse, and four counts of providing false information into

1:32:46 law enforcement. Now the child neglect that she

1:32:49 was charged with originally I think should have stood as well

1:32:52 because even if as you say, if she wasn't the person who

1:32:55 actually murdered her child, she definitely was neglectful in

1:32:59 that she wasn't reporting her missing 100%. 100.

1:33:04 Percent. So I have to say at the end of

1:33:05 all of this, that's the only one positive thing out of this.

1:33:07 I reckon there is actually a new law called Casey Casey's,

1:33:11 Kaylee's law that has been put in place in I think 11 states

1:33:15 have employed employed this into the legislation.

1:33:18 So, and what that means is that any that a felony charge is

1:33:23 required for a parent or legal guardian that fails to report a

1:33:30 missing child in the cases where a parent should does know or

1:33:34 should have known that their child was in possible danger.

1:33:37 Good. So that would mean that in this

1:33:39 situation, if this occurred now, no matter what, as a minimum,

1:33:44 Casey would have received a charge of that a a felony charge

1:33:47 sure of child neglect for for that.

1:33:50 So that's one thing that Kaylee, that Kaylee's law that has come

1:33:53 into place is a positive of this.

1:33:55 Yeah, that is true. That's something the prosecution

1:33:59 also said. They went through all of the

1:34:01 computers and stuff in the home and the tech and what they found

1:34:05 was that there was a shared family computer.

1:34:08 And so it had, we're sort of going back now into the early

1:34:12 2000s where you had different profiles so you could select

1:34:17 your own profile as you booted up your computer.

1:34:19 And every member of the family sort of had their own profile.

1:34:22 I mean, a lot of laptops and stuff have that on it these days

1:34:24 as well. Yeah.

1:34:25 And Casey's profile had been activated.

1:34:28 And Google Chrome. This is actually quite funny

1:34:31 because they're like well we know it was either Casey or Lee

1:34:33 who searched this because they used Google Chrome as opposed to

1:34:37 Internet Explorer cause only old people use Internet.

1:34:40 Explorer. It's hilarious, but Google

1:34:42 Chrome had been used to search foolproof suffocation at 2:49 PM

1:34:47 on the day that Kaylee we think Kaylee was.

1:34:51 But the prosecution didn't know that no at the time of trial.

1:34:55 That's the problem anyway. It's just there's just so much

1:35:00 stuff. And then when Casey's asked

1:35:02 about that, she says, well, we all knew each other's password,

1:35:05 so it could have been anyone. But other family members dispute

1:35:07 that. They say no, they say that.

1:35:09 Well, well, they they wouldn't have been any need to know each

1:35:11 other's passwords because they had their own profiles on the

1:35:14 computer. It wasn't like 1 password to log

1:35:16 into the computer. Yeah, it was a password to log

1:35:19 into your specific profile. Yeah.

1:35:21 So they say they didn't know her password.

1:35:23 Whether or not that's true, who knows?

1:35:24 There's so many. But if and if the prosecution

1:35:28 had known about that search, that would have actually, so the

1:35:31 defence's argument of this entirely was that it was an

1:35:35 accidental death that George was involved in how and covering up

1:35:38 the baby, the the body and everything like that.

1:35:40 So by that search of the suffocation, foolproof

1:35:45 suffocation, it would have dismantled their case because it

1:35:50 it now becomes or it's not an accidental death.

1:35:53 So that could have blown all of that out of the water.

1:35:56 Yeah. But the prosecution were not

1:35:57 aware of that because of a it's they said it's a lack of

1:36:01 funding, which is such such absolute crap.

1:36:03 Like it's. Yeah.

1:36:04 Apparently the person who was put on that job to do look for

1:36:07 all those searches and things only looked at one Internet

1:36:13 browser. They weren't looking at other

1:36:15 browsers. So it was only they like, looked

1:36:17 at Internet Explorer and not at Google Chrome or Firefox or

1:36:21 something. Yeah.

1:36:22 Like it was yeah, to that, that was what what occurred.

1:36:25 So that's why the defense knew that the defense knew that

1:36:27 existed. They had had someone look at it.

1:36:29 They paid someone, you know, more money to look at those

1:36:33 different browsers, whereas the prosecution, so they all had the

1:36:35 same hardware information. Yep.

1:36:39 But the data being looked at was looked at by two different

1:36:42 people on the defense side and the prosecution.

1:36:45 So yeah, that's where that had it had been disclosed, but not

1:36:48 to that degree. The other thing that is really

1:36:51 interesting is the fact that George's phone records were

1:36:53 never subpoenaed. So we went by the police.

1:36:56 So what we know is Casey's were. So we know she was at or around

1:37:01 their house until about 4:00 PM on the day that we now know

1:37:06 Kaylee went missing, which was the 16th of June.

1:37:09 We don't know what George where George's phone was peeing from

1:37:13 on that day because his phone records were never subpoenaed.

1:37:17 Now you've got to think about this was.

1:37:20 This something where they were. No, they were never subpoenaed.

1:37:23 OK. What we know is so the home, the

1:37:26 home records were though the home phone records were, but

1:37:29 that doesn't prove where George was.

1:37:31 No, we know phone calls that came into and out of the home

1:37:34 phone, but we don't know George's mobile phone record,

1:37:37 right. And what that actually means is

1:37:40 that we don't know whether George was in or in or around

1:37:44 the house at the time. That would have given a lot of

1:37:46 weight to Casey's side, Casey's version of events.

1:37:50 So you listen here, though George immediately established

1:37:55 himself with the police investigators as a detective.

1:38:00 He he references it constantly during his interview.

1:38:03 He's like, oh, I don't want to come across with my detective

1:38:06 hat on. Oh, I don't want to come.

1:38:08 I don't want to, you know, use detective speak when I'm talking

1:38:12 about this, you know, so I feel as though they were like, Oh

1:38:15 yeah, mate, don't don't even worry about it.

1:38:17 You're one of us. Yeah.

1:38:19 So I feel like there was possibly a failing there too.

1:38:22 But then do I believe George had something to do with it?

1:38:25 Yes, but what? I don't know.

1:38:27 And I'm just like so I'm. So I'm so torn as to whether he

1:38:31 is so torn the pedophile that she describes him as, or whether

1:38:35 he is this doting beautiful grandfather I.

1:38:38 Well, Casey in this is the other thing right in one of her prison

1:38:42 calls that you can hear. Yes, she says to him because he

1:38:45 goes I I feel like I've failed you.

1:38:47 I failed Kaylee and she goes, dad, you are the most beautiful

1:38:50 father. You are the best grandfather.

1:38:53 But this was. Before Case Casey's language in

1:38:55 that is past tense. You were.

1:38:57 You were the greatest, yes. And we didn't know at this

1:38:59 point, No, Kaylee was her. Body had not been found yet, no.

1:39:02 But then she catches herself. Yes.

1:39:04 And she goes. She changes.

1:39:05 Still are. Yeah.

1:39:06 And you still are. Yeah, Well, no, fuck off.

1:39:08 You've already, you know, she's dead.

1:39:10 Her language in that is very interesting, yes, but also

1:39:13 that's again, we can't believe anything that she says.

1:39:16 And so I don't know whether to like in that moment, are you

1:39:18 just appeasing your your father and saying what you want, you

1:39:21 think he wants to hear? Or are you genuinely like no

1:39:24 dad, you've been great, you know, like it does my head in.

1:39:29 I don't know. No, I don't know what to

1:39:31 believe. I don't believe her.

1:39:32 I don't believe her at all, but I don't I believe any of them in

1:39:36 that family. Like the only person I think I

1:39:38 do believe is Lee. Agreed.

1:39:39 I think he's got his head screwed on and I think he's over

1:39:42 it like because between the mother daughter relationship of

1:39:46 Cindy and Casey is also fucked up.

1:39:50 But then I do think, you know, is this then George is George

1:39:52 this poor, poor bloke who's been dragged along by these two women

1:39:56 and of this relationship between them who's I think that dynamic

1:39:59 has caused him heartache well before this as well.

1:40:03 Obviously with, you know, the graduation stuff and then the

1:40:05 pregnancy stuff, all those massive lies that have been in

1:40:08 that family for so long. And I can see an exhausted man.

1:40:11 He did attempt suicide, we should say in January 20.

1:40:15 Oh God, what year was that from 22,000 and 9?

1:40:21 No, you're right, it was. 22nd of January 2009 So Kaylan's body

1:40:24 was found in the December and he did attempt genuinely attempt

1:40:27 suicide in the January late January and the letter that he

1:40:32 wrote in that So before what happened was he texted family

1:40:35 and friends telling saying goodbye to people.

1:40:38 He went to a hotel and took a shit load of 70.

1:40:42 Yeah, 70 pills. Apparently he genuinely was,

1:40:44 Yeah, yeah, he sat whilst the so, whilst the pills were taking

1:40:47 effect, he wrote a letter so, but obviously by these text

1:40:52 messages he'd sent, people contacted authorities, they've

1:40:55 tracked him down and they did get to him in time and saved

1:40:58 him. But the letter that he wrote,

1:41:01 again, I think that that indicates him having not having

1:41:04 knowledge. He asks a whole bunch of

1:41:07 questions in that letter around like, you know, I just want to

1:41:10 know what happened to her and how did she get to where she was

1:41:12 found. And that the stuff that if he

1:41:15 was, if it was a confession and you that he's more likely to, if

1:41:18 he was involved, to me, that was the time he was going to confess

1:41:20 it. And psychologically, that

1:41:22 apparently is what people do that, you know, deathbed

1:41:24 confessions is a thing. It's genuinely they want to do.

1:41:27 They want to exit those things from themselves before they pass

1:41:29 on. And so to me, that was the time

1:41:32 to do it. And he didn't, he didn't, he did

1:41:34 he what he confessed was this guilt of I didn't do enough.

1:41:38 I didn't do I, I've, I've made mistakes, but not to the point

1:41:42 of I've made mistakes where I've abused my daughter and he and my

1:41:45 granddaughter or, you know, and, and he murdered anyone.

1:41:48 He did say that though, that I'm sorry for what I've done to my

1:41:51 family. Yeah.

1:41:52 But I think that that's, that's where I read that in the context

1:41:55 of the entirety of the letter. Sure of that.

1:41:57 He hasn't managed to not the family's broken and he hasn't

1:42:01 managed to be able to keep it together.

1:42:02 Right, OK. Yeah, that's how.

1:42:05 I so he's assuming responsibility from that angle,

1:42:07 not. That the I haven't been good

1:42:09 enough as a father to stop this like or whatever or, you know, I

1:42:11 haven't been and. Then in that letter he also

1:42:14 references playing with Kaylee in heaven and.

1:42:17 And he actually signs it off as I'm Here I come, Kaylee.

1:42:20 Yeah. Which?

1:42:23 I don't know. But then if you look at that

1:42:25 from the lens and like a pedophile, you're like, well,

1:42:27 that's really fucked up. Yeah.

1:42:28 So it's I I just don't even know.

1:42:30 Freaking adore his little grandpa.

1:42:32 Yeah. Would you know, Like, you know,

1:42:33 that's. I don't know.

1:42:34 I don't know. No, I don't know.

1:42:36 It's so frustrating. It's so fucking frustrating.

1:42:40 Oh, but. Oh God, I don't know where to

1:42:46 even begin. It's just horrific.

1:42:49 It is horrific. It is absolutely.

1:42:51 Horrific. In this this whole case though,

1:42:54 in obviously, as we said in Florida, they're ruling their

1:42:57 laws and things around the sharing of information.

1:42:59 So the minute this became a trial case and the minute that

1:43:03 the prosecution disclosed all their information to the

1:43:05 defence, all that information also is disclosed to the public.

1:43:10 Yeah. So all this stuff is public

1:43:12 knowledge of like all these interviews with with police, all

1:43:15 these, you know, phone calls in the jails, everything becomes

1:43:19 public knowledge. Yeah, which part of me is like

1:43:22 that? I love that because then I get

1:43:24 all this information. But people take this to the NTH

1:43:26 degree. And I can't handle, regardless

1:43:29 of how guilty anyone of this in this was, random strangers

1:43:33 rocking up at someone's doorstep and screaming at them and, you

1:43:36 know, and abusing them. I could.

1:43:38 I can't handle that. The videos footage of that

1:43:40 occurring I just found really distressing.

1:43:42 I feel like that's no offence to people who live in the United

1:43:47 States, but there is a lot of sensationalism around these

1:43:50 things. I don't think you'd find that

1:43:51 behaviour in Australia. No, I really don't.

1:43:54 But because, as you said, because things are so open and

1:43:57 everything's accessible right from the get go, people feel.

1:44:01 They're part of it. So much a part of it and like

1:44:03 they need to insert themselves into it.

1:44:05 So like for example, where this is the other thing actually that

1:44:08 I wanted to talk about that makes that gives me the fucking

1:44:11 ick about George and Cindy. So when Kaylee went missing,

1:44:15 they set up a foundation like the Find Kaylee Foundation or

1:44:19 whatever. I can't remember exactly what it

1:44:21 was called. And they raised a lot of money.

1:44:24 They had these T-shirts printed that had Kaylee's face on the

1:44:27 front and then all of the contact information on the back

1:44:29 and stuff like that. Yes, they raised lots of money,

1:44:31 which was meant to go towards the search for Kaylee.

1:44:34 And then you know what, the funeral, like people were

1:44:37 donating money because that's what we do when we don't know

1:44:39 what else to do. You know, that's a very human

1:44:42 thing to like. I'll help in.

1:44:44 Anywhere I can if I put money out of.

1:44:45 Some money I will and George and Cindy went out and bought a boat

1:44:50 with the proceeds and they called it the Kaylee Marie.

1:44:53 It was so fucking gross, like a speed boat too, and it was so

1:44:57 over the top $600,000 this boat was.

1:45:00 Would they keep that? Yeah, I believe so.

1:45:03 So that's it. See, that's just gross.

1:45:05 And that that just goes to me. Well.

1:45:06 Oh, that yeah. Because actually they went out

1:45:10 on the water one day. Yeah.

1:45:11 And when other people were actually conducting searches of

1:45:14 the area. Like I'm talking, I don't know

1:45:16 what the equivalent of SES is in the United States, but, you

1:45:19 know, volunteer, organized community organizations who look

1:45:23 for people in these situations. There were community members out

1:45:26 searching and all of that, and they're out on the water.

1:45:28 But they were doing that to promote Kaylee.

1:45:30 Who the fuck is gonna see your boat when you're out on the

1:45:33 ocean in Florida? Like no mate, that's not.

1:45:37 And they came back and there was sunburned and everyone was like

1:45:39 exhausted from. Oh, dad on the boat.

1:45:41 Well, no, everyone was exhausted from a day searching for Kaylee.

1:45:44 They were. Yeah.

1:45:46 And they've come back a bit sunburned from being out on the

1:45:48 boat all day. Like they just.

1:45:50 It's just so. This also fucked up.

1:45:53 They. Don't help themselves.

1:45:54 They don't help themselves. What?

1:45:57 What planet do you think that's OK?

1:46:01 And that's. A and then like there was that

1:46:03 other bit with George having the affair with the woman that he

1:46:05 met. But he says that never.

1:46:06 Happened, he says. That never happened, but she

1:46:08 testified in court that it did. She testified Underoath that

1:46:12 they had an affair. Yeah, I know what she got to

1:46:14 gain or lose from that. But it was a very well known, I

1:46:18 don't know, because then are people like get hungry for

1:46:20 attention. I don't know.

1:46:22 Oh. Come on, That is, if that's the

1:46:25 case, then she's a associate at least.

1:46:27 Well, then you would be absolutely.

1:46:29 But George swears he's like, yeah, he had a conversation with

1:46:32 her and got to nowhere, but there was never an affair.

1:46:33 But. Also had other affairs

1:46:36 throughout his marriage to Cindy.

1:46:37 That's that's known, that's fact.

1:46:39 Admitted to that? Yes, he's admitted to it.

1:46:42 Oh, then yeah, then OK. Like it's, it's just so fucking

1:46:47 fucked up. And there is so much to this

1:46:49 story that I feel like every time I listen to something or

1:46:53 watch something, I was like, another thing came about and I'm

1:46:56 like, what? What?

1:46:57 Yeah, what the hell? Wow.

1:47:01 All of this could have been saved if a 911 call was placed,

1:47:05 if that's even what happened if a 911 call was placed when they

1:47:08 discovered that Kaylee was deceased in whatever.

1:47:11 Way, the thing with this is typically with these sorts of

1:47:13 things, I get to the end of these and I can go.

1:47:15 I think I can place together enough of something that went

1:47:18 on. Yep, I got nothing.

1:47:20 Same same. I just can't.

1:47:23 I don't even know. And you and I often will come to

1:47:26 like we a similar conclusion often.

1:47:29 Yeah. A similar conclusion this time

1:47:31 is nothing. Because I don't.

1:47:33 Just know when she when has Kaylee died, how she died, who

1:47:38 who did anything, how accidental it was.

1:47:41 I reckon. I reckon Kaylee died on the 16th

1:47:45 ish of June. I think she died early on in

1:47:49 that 31 days. Oh yeah, yeah.

1:47:51 I think, I think Casey absolutely was involved somehow,

1:47:55 I think, or at least knew something.

1:47:59 Yeah, I think same of George, actually.

1:48:01 I think he's probably somehow involved.

1:48:05 I know you've got a very different, well, not a very

1:48:08 different. Taste.

1:48:08 I don't know if I do or not. I yeah, I find it.

1:48:10 Really hard. I couldn't convince someone of

1:48:13 that. No, because I don't like, I'm

1:48:17 not. I'm not convinced.

1:48:19 No. I just think where there's

1:48:21 smoke, there's fire, so there's somebody like, I feel like they

1:48:24 are all involved in some way. The only thing I think is that

1:48:28 in all of this, the trial, etcetera, I think as wrong as it

1:48:33 is, the jury got it right. Yep.

1:48:37 In acquitting Casey because the prosecution didn't have a Case?

1:48:42 No, the defence did a very good job.

1:48:45 As we said, I I would definitely employ him as my lawyer if I

1:48:48 ever get called done for for for murder.

1:48:51 He's incredible at his job, but also the prosecution was shit at

1:48:53 their job. The case wasn't there.

1:48:56 They did not have a strong enough case.

1:48:57 They've gone to court with a first degree murder charge and

1:49:00 they did not have the evidence to back it up.

1:49:02 I feel like they thought that because of all of them.

1:49:06 Media sensationalists. It's OJ Simpson esque in terms

1:49:10 of the we've got. This got this it's.

1:49:12 Fine, so easy. Everyone knows that she did it.

1:49:14 The other thing that I found interesting with the trial is

1:49:17 they they sort of recognized that there wouldn't be enough

1:49:21 people in their county to get a fair and unbiased jury.

1:49:26 So they just got a jury brought in from 100 miles away.

1:49:29 Yeah, yeah, as. If they didn't.

1:49:31 Know, but it was national news, it was what was going on so.

1:49:33 Something like 66 million people around the world watched the

1:49:39 trial live. Holy cow, 66 million I.

1:49:44 Really need to get on the court TVA little bit more often, I

1:49:46 reckon. This.

1:49:46 Yeah, that's crazy. Oh well, the the Diddy stuff,

1:49:49 huh? Karen Reid.

1:49:51 Karen Reid. Oh my God, mushroom.

1:49:54 So many. Was if they don't wish they'd

1:49:56 televise it here. Yeah, yeah, but yeah.

1:50:00 So the the jury did the right thing.

1:50:02 I I applaud them in their take on on a field for the jury

1:50:05 because clearly the public didn't agree.

1:50:08 Yeah with that. But, and so I know there was 11

1:50:12 juror was interviewed around the because I can do that in the

1:50:15 States, whereas here you wouldn't be allowed to do that.

1:50:17 But they interviewed this woman and she's like, it's like my

1:50:19 dirty little secret that I was on the jury pool because you

1:50:22 can't tell people, 'cause they just abuse you for like as if

1:50:25 you got it wrong. But they they were.

1:50:26 We they got it right. They did do the right thing

1:50:29 right. And I not and not because I, I

1:50:31 actually I do believe that Casey, to what degree I don't

1:50:34 know, but I do believe she was involved and do believe she

1:50:36 should have had consequences. But they didn't get it on the on

1:50:40 the day like the prosecution did not have the case as there was

1:50:45 reasonable doubt. The other thing is absolutely

1:50:47 there was reasonable doubt. The other thing is though, the

1:50:50 prosecution and the police, the fact that they took Casey to

1:50:55 trial so quickly really hasn't worked in their favour because

1:50:59 of the double jeopardy laws that apply.

1:51:02 And so she will never ever, ever, even if they find a slam

1:51:06 dunk, she can never be tried for this again.

1:51:09 No, that's exactly right. You know, they've potentially

1:51:12 done a massive disservice to Kaylee.

1:51:15 Yeah, if they ever find out any evidence that points to the fact

1:51:20 that Casey was involved. Yeah, absolutely.

1:51:23 So you know, who's made, who's making these decisions.

1:51:26 Like I feel like in Australia there wouldn't have been enough

1:51:29 evidence to support putting this person through trial to a trial.

1:51:33 Yeah, well, the other thing was that they felt what undid the

1:51:36 them as well was the prosecution, as much as the jury

1:51:39 did have a choice of what they could actually find her guilty

1:51:43 of. They could have found a guilty

1:51:44 of first degree murder, which held the death penalty, which

1:51:47 obviously that's pretty hardcore.

1:51:49 And they that you know, that that can bring some pretty big

1:51:51 emotion into it that a jury might go.

1:51:54 I think that she did it, but does she deserve the death

1:51:56 penalty like so? There was also on the table

1:52:00 obviously manslaughter, secondary, sorry secondary,

1:52:03 second degree murder, manslaughter and aggravated

1:52:06 manslaughter. They were all on the table as

1:52:08 being possible outcomes. However, the prosecution again

1:52:12 did themselves no favours and everything they presented meant

1:52:17 that the jury had to find her guilty of first degree murder.

1:52:21 That was all they aimed for rather than giving options of,

1:52:25 OK, if you don't believe that story, it's potentially like

1:52:27 maybe it's this that would slot into a second degree murder or

1:52:31 maybe this happened in manslaughter.

1:52:32 They never gave the jury those options really in terms of what

1:52:35 they presented. So the jury, it was basically an

1:52:38 all or nothing option for the jury.

1:52:40 And so when they sat down to look at this and go, it's not

1:52:45 first degree murder, they haven't they haven't got it.

1:52:48 The only other option was if it's not that, then it's

1:52:51 nothing. So that that's, I think they,

1:52:54 they probably could have aimed a little bit differently and gone

1:52:57 for a manslaughter. Yeah, on it and been.

1:52:59 But they didn't, and, and here we are.

1:53:01 Casey is now working for the investigators who helped out in

1:53:07 her case. She's working as.

1:53:08 A. She lives with him as a.

1:53:09 Research. Not anymore.

1:53:11 But she did for a long time. They took her in after a trial

1:53:13 because she had nothing. She had no money, she had

1:53:15 nowhere to go. She started a totally business

1:53:17 at one stage, but yeah, didn't get.

1:53:19 No. Would you?

1:53:21 No, the she's estranged from her family, from her.

1:53:26 She speaks to Lee. I think so.

1:53:29 But her mum, she has some communication with limited, OK,

1:53:33 because it works, because her mum does still sort of support

1:53:35 that, thinks that she doesn't. Well, publicly says that she

1:53:39 supports her daughter, OK, Whereas she has no relationship

1:53:42 with her father, Yeah. Well, I mean, she's.

1:53:44 How could you What you've you? Couldn't.

1:53:47 No, you couldn't. For whether it's true or not,

1:53:50 you couldn't. So yeah, I I understand that.

1:53:53 Yeah. And she calls him George.

1:53:54 She doesn't call him Dad anymore.

1:53:56 And she calls mom Cindy, too. Yeah, yeah.

1:53:57 Which, yeah. I think I mean, I've just

1:54:01 realized the time. One other thing, though.

1:54:03 Yeah, because there was some text messages between Cindy and

1:54:07 Casey after all of this, that one of them actually got me that

1:54:12 of like that narcissistic trait. No, mom was that they were

1:54:15 having this bit of argument over text message and particularly

1:54:18 around the ashes of Kaylee, which Cindy will not give to

1:54:23 Casey now she's been acquitted, but she will not have been hate.

1:54:28 That's I as. Yeah.

1:54:30 As much as I'm like those things that Kay that Casey had

1:54:32 something to do with this. Yeah, she's her mum.

1:54:34 I think she needs at least split them in half.

1:54:36 I don't know like, not that I like doing that.

1:54:38 I don't think that's OK, but you need to find something out here

1:54:41 because she does need to. I don't know.

1:54:43 Anyway, yeah, they're arguing over that as Casey's asking for

1:54:46 her for Kaylee's ashes, and her mom's response to her was to

1:54:50 send her the photo of case of Kaylee's remains that were found

1:54:55 and go. Well, you did this, so you're.

1:54:57 I'm not giving you the ashes, are you?

1:55:00 Kidding me I. Didn't know that.

1:55:02 And the way she says it is. So the way the way Cindy

1:55:06 explains this interaction and shows the text messages to the

1:55:10 interviewer is so detached from it.

1:55:12 Like, you know. Yeah, well, so I just responded

1:55:14 with this. Oh.

1:55:15 For fuck's sake. I'd be like, so I kind of like

1:55:18 maybe this and it wasn't right, but I sent it like, you know,

1:55:21 there was no element of those. Feeling about I was.

1:55:23 Really vindictive and I and I know that's probably really hard

1:55:26 for, but I shouldn't have done that, but I did.

1:55:28 No, it was. So I said no, that Yep.

1:55:29 What? What are you going to say about

1:55:31 that? Well, Casey says she wants the

1:55:34 remains. She wants Kaylee's remains

1:55:36 because she wants to be able to take her to all of the places

1:55:38 she didn't get to visit when she Cindy.

1:55:40 Has Cindy also said in that same interview then of like, I will

1:55:44 scatter Kaylee's ashes before I die so Kaylee Casey never gets

1:55:48 them? Fucking hell.

1:55:51 That is vindictive. That's vindictive and that poor

1:55:54 little girl like, Oh my God, I just at the centre of it they.

1:55:58 Bring it back to. Katie, there is a dead 3 year

1:56:01 old for fuck's sake. I I can't with these people.

1:56:06 I can't. It's awful.

1:56:09 It's horrible so. What we haven't said to you

1:56:11 though. So obviously at the end of this

1:56:13 trial, she was acquitted of the first degree murder.

1:56:17 What she but the only thing she was charged, she was convicted

1:56:20 of was the lying to the police, which 4 counts of lying.

1:56:23 She definitely why don't she admits she's a liar.

1:56:25 She even says that now to this day I do lie.

1:56:27 I know I lied. So she did lie.

1:56:30 So with that came a four year sentence with so that the judge

1:56:35 decided with sent it with time served and good behaviour which

1:56:39 she ended up she was in prison for three years during this

1:56:42 trial period and all that sort of thing that she so that with

1:56:44 time served that she was released ten days after the

1:56:47 trial completed she was out free and.

1:56:51 That's it. That's all she got.

1:56:54 Poor Kaylee. It's a big one.

1:56:57 Oh my God. At the end of it, we just, you

1:57:00 know, our heart breaks for that poor little girl.

1:57:02 And she's so gorgeous, so beautiful, so cute.

1:57:06 Little spunk. Yeah.

1:57:10 So sad. OK.

1:57:14 On that note, we're going to leave it there.

1:57:16 As we said, so much information, so much in fact, please do

1:57:20 yourselves a favor and even if you just go and watch a few a

1:57:24 few clips on. YouTube list the just nine on

1:57:26 one calls. Yes, yeah.

1:57:28 If you just do nothing else, they'll blow your mind.

1:57:31 And also to put faces to these people.

1:57:33 Like I found when I would see them, it really gave me another

1:57:38 perspective again. Yeah.

1:57:39 And to see their mannerisms and stuff.

1:57:40 So yes, please let us know what you think, too.

1:57:43 Like I'm so curious to see what people's takes.

1:57:45 Are at least send us this all like and this we got it wrong,

1:57:48 are we? You know, yeah.

1:57:49 What have we missed? What have we not?

1:57:51 What have we know? Like I.

1:57:51 Have to have the whole time researching this like what am I

1:57:54 missing here because. What have or what have we not

1:57:56 considered? Or what angle have we not

1:57:57 considered? This is it.

1:57:59 People are very like, I mean, very staunch on their ideas of

1:58:02 this. Whereas and we're coming out

1:58:03 going. I don't know what I think.

1:58:05 I really don't know. I can't.

1:58:07 Oh, I'm so confused. Yeah.

1:58:09 Yeah, what have we got for next week?

1:58:11 Next week is 50. Woohoo so we put out a bit of a

1:58:17 shout out a few weeks ago for people to give us their

1:58:20 suggestions and we have come up with Meg What are we doing?

1:58:23 We're. Actually gonna do Martha

1:58:26 Stewart. Yeah, girl.

1:58:30 So stay tuned next week for our Big 50.

1:58:33 We're really proud of that milestone.

1:58:35 So thanks to everyone who's been along for the ride.

1:58:37 We really appreciate it. Please, as we said at the start

1:58:40 of this episode, like and follow us on all the socials and on

1:58:44 whatever podcast platform you're listening to us on.

1:58:47 A like a follow a comment. Yeah, goes a really long way.

1:58:50 Join. The conversation.

1:58:52 Tell us what you're thinking, Yes.

1:58:53 Thanks everybody. We'll see you next week.

1:58:55 Stay curious, crime besties. Bye.