Episode 46 - Lynette Simms (Dawson) & Chris Dawson (The Teachers Pet Case) Part 2

0:15 Welcome, everybody, to our second part of the Chris Dawson,

0:20 Lynn Dawson, Lynn Sims. There's so many different names

0:24 that we could go for this one, but welcome back to another

0:26 episode. Thanks for joining us again and.

0:28 Yeah. Welcome back, everyone.

0:29 Did you forget what we were doing today?

0:30 Just it took. Me took me a hot minute.

0:32 Although we literally just recorded the first part of this

0:35 episode, so, you know, giving away our trade secrets.

0:38 Can't let your brain fall out just yet?

0:41 No, I've got a little bit left in me, Yeah.

0:44 Then I think we might need to go and get some.

0:45 Lungs. Oh yeah, you could.

0:47 Have you ever had it? Oh, we're so out of practice

0:50 with all of this. Right, we've got this.

0:52 I I reckon we can. Manage.

0:54 Oh, now that's now that that's been that seed's been planted.

0:57 We're good. I'm I'm right.

0:58 I'm here. We're gonna get this done and

1:00 get to lunch. Yay, how are you?

1:03 I I think we were talking in the last episode about how it's been

1:06 your birthday this week, but how's everything else been

1:09 going? Not too bad, not too bad, I feel

1:12 like. The weather has seriously

1:14 changed. We were just saying then these

1:16 outdoor sports over winter are horrific.

1:19 Why, Why do we do outdoor sports in winter?

1:22 Like I feel like it's an Australian thing of like, you

1:24 know, that football, it's a winter sport, soccer's a winter

1:27 sport. Like they're all outdoors.

1:29 Like, why are we not putting out our winter, you know, our cold

1:33 sports, outdoor sports in summer when it's nice to be outside?

1:36 Yeah, I don't know, because it's the kids.

1:38 Bloody love running around in the rain and the mud.

1:42 I'm dreading tonight, like sit standing around at footy

1:46 training, Yeah, it's gonna be so cold.

1:48 It'll be so cold. At least it's not wet.

1:51 It's not gonna be raining tonight, but we will have weeks

1:55 where we'll be standing in the absolute pouring rain.

1:58 Oh, yeah. While it's while they're

1:59 training. Yeah.

1:59 Or while they're playing. Oh.

2:01 The kids love it like they love getting in the mud, like, but I

2:04 don't. Oh no, I'll just put that out

2:06 there. Oh no, no, I'm not here for

2:08 that. No, no thanks.

2:10 It's just freezing. It's horrible.

2:11 Oh, it's. Awful.

2:12 Yeah, on the on the note of it being cold and it's particularly

2:17 being cold overnight the last few nights especially.

2:21 Tell me this, are you one of those psychopaths that sleeps in

2:24 socks? Maybe.

2:27 Are you really? OK, my feet control my body

2:31 temperature entirely, right? If my feet are hot, I am hot.

2:36 If my feet are cold, I am cold. OK.

2:40 So in summer there is nothing I hate more than socks on in bed.

2:45 I am with you on it in summer. But when I get to this cold

2:48 weather and winter, I have to have nice socks warming my feet

2:53 up. The thought of it, yeah, the

2:55 thought of it makes me want to vomit.

2:58 And The thing is in summer, I'm I'm with you, I am with you.

3:00 But when we get these cold, wet, cold weather, I just, I have to

3:04 my feet, literally if my feet aren't warm, I am not warm, OK.

3:09 Yeah, I mean, I don't. Don't get me wrong, I don't like

3:12 having cold feet. Yeah, but I cannot, I just, I

3:18 cannot go to bed with. Socks.

3:19 I think what my issue is in winter is I'm one of those

3:21 people who sticks my feet out of the donor.

3:24 Same. And I can't stick my feet out of

3:26 the donor and keep them warm unless I've got socks on.

3:28 Them but that don't you regulate your body temperature by putting

3:30 your foot out a little bit so this.

3:32 Is no, it's actually like, I know this is the thing.

3:34 I stick my feet out not for regulating my temperature

3:36 because of just habit of having to stick my feet out I think.

3:41 OK interesting. I I can't also wear long pants

3:44 to bed. Oh, yeah, I know.

3:45 I wear long pants to bed. Yeah.

3:47 OK, I should refer them to the shorts.

3:49 Yeah. It's really hard to find pajamas

3:51 that are shorts with a long sleeve top.

3:53 That is because that's wrong you.

3:54 Just don't in. The winter tops with shorts that

3:58 you can find sets. I've got a really nice bond set

4:00 that's like that in the winter. I I do like a long sleeved.

4:05 Because your arms are out. Out.

4:06 Yeah, yeah. But then the way I regulate my

4:09 temperature is by sticking my foot out, and the longer my leg

4:13 goes out, obviously the cooler I need to get.

4:17 The calculations like it's it's very scientist.

4:20 I'll get Mace onto the the mathematical equation of how

4:22 much leg it takes to cook. Could he could you please?

4:25 I reckon he. Takes my ideal bedroom

4:27 temperature. I actually don't know what that

4:29 is. Yeah.

4:29 What would be my ideal bedroom temperature where I can leave my

4:32 legs in the bed all night but not actually get?

4:34 Hot. Yeah, Yeah.

4:36 Thanks, Mace. I'll get him, get him onto it.

4:38 He'll he'll love the problem solving.

4:39 But. Also then in the winter like a

4:41 blanket on top of the do not serious.

4:45 Oh, Nah, 'cause that just irritates because it never goes

4:47 where you want it to go, and I would just lose my mind over it.

4:50 Yeah, no, no. Hey, Dina.

4:52 Yeah, yeah, OK. And I've gotta have something on

4:55 me, no matter how hot it is. Oh, I'm a little bit like that.

4:58 I don't like, like even on a really hot knife, you need a

5:01 sheet. Well, it's just like, you're so

5:03 exposed. I don't know.

5:05 Yeah. Like hiding under something.

5:06 Yeah. I do.

5:07 I like to pull something up and over me.

5:09 Yeah and yeah. Yeah, even if you've got the air

5:11 conditioned air conditioning blasting a little bit cooler

5:14 just so that you. Can have your sheet on 100%,

5:16 yeah. Agreed.

5:16 I agree with that. I'll spend the fortune on the

5:18 air conditioner being on just to be able to do that.

5:21 Worth it. Worth it.

5:25 But yeah, the thought of these, Oh my God, these cold days out

5:29 in the oh, I hate feeling cold. I hate it in the core.

5:32 It's like, oh, and I was outside at work yesterday and I'm like,

5:36 it's just happened. Like it's that crispness in the

5:38 middle of the day where you go, oh, because when I was a couple

5:42 of weeks ago, I think we're standing at footy training.

5:44 We were like, oh, here it comes. Here's the that evening crisp,

5:48 but during the day crisp. Oh God.

5:50 You know, that's a change in the season, although this weekend is

5:53 gonna be really nice. It's gonna be 23 and sunny both

5:55 days. Well, I'll take that, yeah.

5:58 Yeah, we've got Mother's Day coming up this weekend.

5:59 Yeah, so that's nice. Oh well, Mother's Day.

6:01 You mean footy? Yeah, footy.

6:04 Oh my God, two games of footy each.

6:05 Yeah. And you know, family

6:08 commitments, but that's, that's what it's all about.

6:10 Being mums, that's what you do. Yeah, I've gotta do the gotta do

6:14 the dog poop pick up for 40 this week on Sweeping Judy Judies.

6:19 Oh, it is so funny. So our club Rost, if you're at

6:22 home, you get rosted on, potentially get rosted on to do

6:25 the it's called a ground sweep, but it's literally just picking

6:27 up dog shit that's on the Oval, which I mean, it's a well

6:31 appreciated by everyone. Absolutely.

6:34 So who are these evil people who are not picking up their dog?

6:36 Total, total Dick heads. On the kids footy Oval.

6:39 Yuck. Yeah, it's just crazy.

6:40 Yuck, yuck, yuck, yuck. We don't generally have to do

6:43 that because I volunteer every week in a different capacity.

6:47 Anything else when you volunteer?

6:48 Peter's happy to do like umpire, what do you call it, Golden

6:52 umpiring or the umpire escort or things like that?

6:54 He's doesn't mind doing that. Yeah.

6:56 Or time keeper or whatever. Yeah, we tend to not have to

7:00 worry too much about the other jobs.

7:02 You're welcome, Peter. Oh.

7:03 Totally. I mean, I'm, I'm grateful 'cause

7:05 there's a couple that we know that have volunteered

7:07 permanently to the ground sweep for our team.

7:10 So they're on every week, but they're still like, they're like

7:13 the two of them are happy to do it together, like husband and

7:15 wife. And so we don't actually need

7:17 anyone else doing it. But I've been, I've been

7:19 rostered on to do it 'cause they're still getting a second

7:21 person on the roster. But I'm like, so they keep

7:23 telling me, oh, don't worry about it.

7:24 You have to do it. Like, we'll do it.

7:26 I'm like, oh, but I feel bad. Like if I don't at least show my

7:28 face, show up. I'll come, I'll come 10.

7:30 Minutes. They might try and make me do

7:31 something else, oh I don't know, canteen duty or something.

7:35 Oh, I I didn't mind doing the canteen.

7:38 Yeah, I haven't done canteen yet.

7:39 Actually, I haven't. No, I haven't given that job

7:41 yet. So yeah, I'm, I'm, I don't mind

7:43 helping out. But fine but.

7:45 Picking up dog shit. Oh.

7:46 Yeah. It's already hard enough on

7:48 Mother's Day to get there well. This is so this one of our, one

7:51 of my friends, Erin, she's got a couple of kids in Ollie's team

7:55 and the team manager put out a thing during the week saying,

7:58 hey, we actually just don't have anyone rostered to canteen for

8:02 first and second-half this week. Yeah, any volunteers And I see

8:06 Heron at BFT every morning. She's like one of the two of the

8:10 dads need to volunteer for that on Mother's Day.

8:12 There shouldn't be mums there. Shouldn't be mums doing it?

8:14 No, I'm like, why? Is it always the mums who do the

8:17 canteen and the dads that do the bands?

8:20 Go on hiring. Or whatever.

8:22 Yeah, Come on, guys. I think fingers are beyond the

8:24 gender stereotypes, peeps. Absolutely.

8:27 Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think on Mother's Day

8:29 particularly, it should be the dads stepping up.

8:32 Yeah, for sure. But nobody's volunteered yet,

8:34 so. Are you serious?

8:35 Just no one, none of the dads have come into the group chat

8:37 and gone. Yeah, yeah.

8:38 Like, like. Not not.

8:40 So I'm just gonna wait for that to pan itself.

8:42 Out tells me. I thought we've moved past this.

8:44 Yeah, no, no, no. Anyway, I've got a few shout

8:48 outs for today. Yes.

8:49 So we've got Katrina Jenner and Nick who have been commenting, I

8:54 think they were Instagram. I think Instagram.

8:58 And I'd also like to shout out to an ex work colleague of mine,

9:02 actually her name is Dai, and I went away with her a few weeks

9:06 ago on that cruise. And she was just, she knew so

9:09 much about our episodes. Like, I can tell she was super

9:12 into it and loved listening. So thank you, Dai, and thank

9:15 you, Nick and Katrina. Yeah.

9:17 Yeah. That's awesome.

9:18 I love that. Yeah.

9:20 Do you find that people are coming up to you and saying

9:22 things like people in your real life and like, I didn't know you

9:24 listened? Definitely, definitely.

9:28 Yeah. I've got a particular work

9:30 colleague that I actually didn't realise.

9:31 I knew. She knew we were doing the

9:32 podcast and that's something. But she's actually really into

9:36 this and shout her out. Yeah.

9:38 So Mel, she knows she'll be listening, I'm sure.

9:41 And I'm. And she came to me going, I

9:42 didn't even know you're on socials and I've found you on

9:44 there. And I see her name pop up, you

9:45 know, with likes and stuff on things now.

9:47 And I'm like, no, Oh yeah, she's here and she knows she's into

9:49 it. She's she doesn't really talk

9:51 about it much at work, but I can sense that she's got some

9:53 interest and got some things to say.

9:55 It's. Mel.

9:56 We'll chat, Mel, we'll chat. Just corner Meg in her office

10:00 one day and. As they all do, she'll have.

10:03 No, no end of things to talk to you about.

10:07 Try and separate the two. But now I'm happy to chat.

10:10 Love it. Yeah, yeah.

10:11 Now, we talked about this in the last episode, but our 50th

10:15 episode is coming up very, very quickly.

10:17 Given this is given that this is episode 46, so we are putting it

10:22 out there to our listeners to give us suggestions of what you

10:25 would like us to cover for our 50th episode.

10:27 We want it to be a bit of a milestone.

10:29 Yeah, for us, we think like, you know, 50 episodes, that's

10:32 incredible. It's huge.

10:33 We're really proud of it and we want to sort of mark the

10:35 occasion with something special that everyone wants to hear and

10:38 have us research and listen to. So we're not sure whether we

10:41 want to go down like something a little bit lighter like a

10:43 celebrity type case or we're totally, 100% open to everyone's

10:48 suggestions. Yeah, send them on through your

10:51 and DM us through Instagram. You can contact us through

10:54 Spotify, through the platform there or Facebook.

10:58 Yeah, let us know. There's so many places to reach

11:01 out or even just shoot us an e-mail.

11:03 Yeah, to [email protected]. Please do.

11:06 Yeah, we're here for it. Oh.

11:08 Yeah, yeah. Love it.

11:09 No, love loving getting all the messages and it's and it's, it

11:12 is, it's growing and I'm I am struggling a little bit to keep

11:15 up with times, but I get there eventually.

11:16 If I haven't responded, just give me some time.

11:19 We get there, yeah, sometimes my days get busy during work and I

11:22 see them peeing through and I want to do it, but I've

11:24 obviously got other things I have to do the.

11:27 Responsibilities. It's all a bit.

11:28 Much so sometimes I might leave you on red, so I'm sorry I might

11:31 have time to read it but not reply.

11:33 Yep. Doing our best to keep.

11:35 Up. Oh yeah, Yep, Juggling at all.

11:36 But it's all good. We get there.

11:38 That's it, That's it. Thank you to everybody.

11:40 Absolutely. All right, shall we delve into

11:44 where we're at? So if you haven't listened to

11:45 last week's episode, please go back and do so because it gives

11:48 all of the background. And we're kind of at the point

11:52 now where we've got an investigation starting for Lynn.

11:57 Well and truly after June, she has gone missing.

12:01 So yeah, go back, listen to the to the first episode if you

12:05 haven't. Yeah, if you don't know this

12:06 case and you really need that back story, otherwise this is

12:08 none of this is probably gonna make sense.

12:10 No, that's. Exactly right.

12:11 That's it. So where are we starting for

12:15 this one? I think well, there was a little

12:16 bit of information we did forget to mention that.

12:18 I just really wanna throw in there today that we talked

12:20 discussed how so obviously Chris Dawson, his wife Lynn is missing

12:25 and has been he's divorced her and married this young JCI

12:29 believe she was 18 when they got married.

12:32 She turned 18. So it was legal.

12:34 But anyway. Morally questionable.

12:37 Ethically questionable. And as we, yeah, as we

12:39 discussed, he moved her in very quickly into the family home and

12:41 it moved very quickly in terms of them then getting married

12:43 like a couple within a couple of years of her disappearance, they

12:46 were married. But one thing we didn't mention

12:48 was the fact that when they did marry, the wedding rings that

12:52 they used were Lin's. They had resized them and

12:59 engagement and wedding. Now the thing, the fact of the

13:01 matter is that he had those in his possession even says

13:04 something to me because I know the the marriage was on the

13:07 rocks, but Lynn was very much trying to keep that marriage

13:09 together. Would you not think that if she

13:11 disappeared that she would not have been wearing them?

13:15 Yes, and her friends say that. And she wasn't one of these

13:18 people. You know how there are people

13:20 who take their rings on and off? Like they might take their rings

13:22 off to wash the dishes or something?

13:24 I've never been that person. And some people, like, honestly,

13:27 like, they have jobs or whatever, for whatever reason

13:28 that they don't wear their rings.

13:29 Yeah, but Lynn was not that person.

13:31 Nope. You know, she wore her rings all

13:33 of the time, so even the fact that he had her rings.

13:36 Yeah. Possession is suspect, yeah.

13:38 And then come on, resize them and give them to you a little.

13:41 It's disgusting. Oh so disrespectful, even

13:45 disrespectful to JC as well as I mean, the fact of the matter is,

13:49 you know, your second marriage, you know, all that sort of

13:51 stuff. You know, in, in the context of

13:53 just literally like, yes, your wife has disappeared and you're

13:55 remarrying or something. Yep, you're entitled to remarry

13:58 and entitled to move on in your life and but you would not use

14:01 your ex wife's rings to marry that person.

14:04 I went to uni with a girl who was proposed to with a ring that

14:09 her fiance had bought a previous girlfriend and proposed to her

14:14 with and he and she said no a. 100%.

14:18 And I was like no no no, as in my friend at uni.

14:22 Said yes. Oh, she said.

14:23 Yes. She then later found out it was

14:25 the same ring that he'd proposed to another woman with.

14:28 I would have said no, you need to go and get new rings.

14:32 Oh my God, yes, oh God. And also, girls, if you get

14:37 proposed to take the ring, they can't take it back.

14:40 Do something with it. Mine is sitting there.

14:44 I need to do something with it because The thing is like I'm

14:46 not that you want to say this one jinxed, but like you know,

14:50 they're they're being part of a marriage and had their lives to

14:54 me like it's. Imagine like you like you would

14:58 think an engagement rings a very personal thing, the fact that

15:04 it's been reused. At least melt it down and reset

15:08 the diamonds whereas they just resized them.

15:12 Sure. Even that even the big question.

15:14 Even that is true. Yeah, you.

15:16 Think for their daughters, that's a legacy.

15:18 Yeah, Item, Yeah, which she. Now will never.

15:20 Have no especially in that situation where mum disappeared.

15:24 There was something happened to mum not as in like oh you guys

15:28 had massive Blues and you just separated like you know and that

15:31 there's I'll toward to each other.

15:33 Well there's award. But like you know well to the

15:36 NTH degree like like where it's got real real bad.

15:39 But yeah, in their in their minds of if Chris Dawson wants

15:42 to stay this, you know, course of, you know, oh, she just

15:44 walked out and like, and this maybe says something happened to

15:46 her that we don't know about. Like, you know, that that's sad

15:50 for the girls. They should have something to

15:52 remember her by. And no, he resized them and gave

15:58 them to his new, much younger wife because she was.

16:02 Also didn't she wouldn't have known any better like she

16:05 wouldn't have she probably felt in fact I know she would have

16:08 felt like she couldn't say I'm not using Lynns rings.

16:12 Like that, no, she was not in a position to be able to have any

16:14 opinion. So he's just dictated that yet

16:17 again and controlled that situation.

16:19 Yeah, for what it was, yeah. I really wanted to get that out

16:22 there. Of what?

16:23 Happened there. That's an important point.

16:24 I think that shows a lot about. Who?

16:27 Relationship, who he was, the situation at the time and how JC

16:31 just she had no choice but to go along for the ride.

16:33 Yeah, yeah. So.

16:36 We left off I think at about 1990 where they had divorced and

16:40 we're at a point of where they've been an inquest of into

16:43 the investigation into the disappearance of Lynn, which

16:47 nothing much really came of that, No.

16:49 So we're basically now in yeah, 1990s where we've got Lynn still

16:54 missing. No, no real investigation, full

16:58 investigation that has occurred. Yeah, that's exactly right.

17:01 Nothing, Nothing has been really done, No.

17:04 And it was decades before things were actually really started to

17:09 be investigated properly. Yes.

17:11 So I think contextually we can give a little bit around this as

17:15 well. So we spoke about this obviously

17:18 in the first episode and this is something that everyone thinks

17:22 of when they think of Lynette Dawson and that is The Teacher's

17:25 Pet podcast. So in the podcast that came out

17:29 in 2018, things had started happening in the lead up to

17:34 that. So I think Headley Thomas, the

17:38 lead investigative journalist who produced The Teacher's Pet

17:43 through his role at The Australian newspaper, he

17:47 basically what he instigated a lot of things even prior to the

17:52 podcast being released. So him looking into Lynette's

17:56 disappearance, interviewing people who knew her, it really

17:59 made people then go, yeah, you're right.

18:01 This has actually been playing on my mind for decades now and I

18:06 do need to do something about it.

18:07 So it actually sparked a reinvestigation of well, you

18:11 know what, it actually sparked an investigation of the case.

18:15 Yeah. So the teacher's pet came out

18:18 and in 2018 and it very strongly suggested that Chris Dawson was

18:23 was responsible for the murder of of Lynette Dawson.

18:27 But obviously they didn't have a lot of proof at the time.

18:31 And the NSW Police, you know, it was incumbent upon them then to

18:38 really investigate this properly and, and put in a proper

18:42 coronial inquest and see where, where all of that information

18:45 actually led and what they were going to do about it.

18:48 So it's, it was an. It was an interesting time, I

18:52 suppose. Yeah, I guess coming on to this

18:56 case, like obviously as we're saying, the police had not done

18:59 a lot until there was a particular person that came into

19:03 this case was was handed to Damian Loon, who we've probably

19:06 mentioned in other cases. I feel like probably.

19:09 Yeah, he's really well known and he he was handed this as a cold

19:12 case. And I've actually heard him

19:15 speak about this a number of different podcasts and he talked

19:19 about the fact that this this case intrigued him massively.

19:24 He didn't have a really a budget on looking into it.

19:26 It was just basically one of his cold cases he was handed, but he

19:29 didn't stay in that particular area for very long in terms of

19:35 what that that was a role he was he was in when he was then moved

19:39 to a different area of the police.

19:41 He asked, but can I stay on this one?

19:44 It really it was it was a bugbear for him that this hadn't

19:47 been, you know, investigated. Yeah, it was.

19:50 Handed to him to Detective Damian Loon in 1998.

19:55 There had been, According to him at the time, there had been

19:58 basically no records. There was like.

20:00 One piece of paper in the box, because Hedley Thomas was the

20:02 same when he sort of walked into this.

20:04 It was not a lot because he actually Hedley Thomas actually

20:08 looked at this well before 2018. Well, so it was actually he

20:12 looked at it in the 90s and was like, this is an interest.

20:14 I know of this case because he actually went to Cromer High.

20:17 Yeah. So he was he.

20:18 Knew of this area yeah. And he knew of this, the vibe of

20:21 the the whole place, yeah, that sort of thing.

20:24 So when he. First entered into this and gone

20:27 what what's been investigated this the two of Damian loom and

20:30 him had already got to know each other a little bit and they he

20:33 was like there's not much to like in this.

20:34 There's been no people, you know, interviewed etcetera.

20:37 And he's the one piece of paper in the box, which was, you know,

20:41 some very vague information around who was involved in JC

20:45 and who she was and all those sorts of things, but but not

20:47 enough to go. There's a pia.

20:50 So at the time, Hayley Thomas was like, oh, I'm intrigued

20:52 because there is definitely more to this.

20:54 And there was nothing to say. There was more, but no further

20:57 investigation. So it wasn't until he then later

21:00 on came back to it. He was like, it was always in

21:02 the back of his head. I wanna do more on this.

21:04 But I think he got caught into, I think life, you know, took on

21:07 for him, young kids. That was time.

21:08 Yeah. Yeah.

21:09 So he didn't. It wasn't time for him to take

21:11 this on and Damian Loon was a bit the the same in that he was,

21:14 as I say, he wasn't actually then even in the role of cold

21:17 cases, he was doing other work within the the police force.

21:20 But this stayed his case. And every now and then if he'd

21:23 get a moment, he'd do a bit on it or something had come to him.

21:26 You know, someone had bring something to him and say this

21:28 has come up. That's to do with that case.

21:30 And he started to gather things. So it was all very slow paced in

21:34 the background it. Was so slow paced that nothing

21:36 really happened until 1999. Yeah, so 19992000.

21:41 Yes, he was. I believe Damian was working on

21:44 this in his spare time. Now, what police officer or

21:46 detective has spare time? Probably not many of them.

21:48 So it did take a long time, but he had a gut feeling about it.

21:52 Yeah, so much so. So they ended up conducting a

21:58 small excavation at the Bayview house.

21:59 So they lived, you know, the house was in Bayview.

22:02 We talked about the house in the previous episode.

22:04 They built it. It was down the road from

22:07 Paul's, sorry, Chris''s twin brother Paul.

22:10 They did a small excavation at the time, focusing on the pool

22:14 and surrounds. This was based on information

22:16 that had been given to them by the neighbor.

22:18 Again, we spoke about her in the last episode because.

22:20 Paul had had some works on it. Had some works done and for not

22:25 really, they didn't really know what was happening.

22:27 They had some paving replaced and nobody really, like, knew

22:31 why and what was going on. Yeah.

22:32 And they used like a ground penetrating radar at the time.

22:35 And they could see that there'd been a disturbance in soil in

22:38 that area. So that was enough to get a

22:40 subpoena to be able to, to, to actually perform an excavation.

22:46 Yeah. At this time, they found a pink

22:48 cardigan and everyone got really, really excited because

22:51 pink was Lin's favorite colour. In fact, at all of the court

22:55 cases that you can see with Lynn's family, they all wear

22:58 pink ribbons to, you know, in remembrance of her.

23:01 So everyone got really, really excited about this pink cardigan

23:05 and unfortunately it went for forensic testing, it came back

23:10 and nothing could be taken from it.

23:12 So they actually. Was found to have like, like

23:15 ribs in it Like oh, it was potentially like.

23:17 But it was not completely ripped.

23:19 Yeah, it was completely ripped. But there was talk that that

23:21 could have been, they could sort of say that it would had been

23:23 you like a knife had been used and things like maybe.

23:26 Yeah, I'm, I'm not sure of that. Yeah, it's, it's 100%.

23:30 It was ripped, at least ripped in half, if not yet.

23:32 I mean, quite possibly, but forensically they couldn't get

23:35 anything of it. They don't even know if it was

23:37 Lin's at the end of the day. If that was tested again in like

23:41 between not 2020 to 25, do you think they'd be potentially more

23:46 able to be found of it or I don't?

23:47 Know because it was buried and it was wet like it was there was

23:51 a lot of moisture it was around a pool there was scary there was

23:54 a lot there I I don't know but thankfully we.

23:59 Don't know. No, no.

24:01 So yeah, there was that obviously sparked more interest

24:05 this cardigan. It really gave the case and a

24:07 bit of a push, even though the actual cardigan ended up not

24:10 really going anywhere. No, it would have been awesome

24:12 even if they could just find even a picture of Lynn wearing

24:16 that cardigan, to be honest. But and and I.

24:18 Think no one had ever seen a inner cardigan?

24:21 Like, yeah, whatever. In February of 2001, the first

24:25 of two perennial inquests took place and this was initiated by

24:30 the NSW Police. But you know, it was still the,

24:34 the results of the NSW Police at the time was still inconclusive.

24:38 They, it's not like they were like, Yep, we've got hard

24:40 evidence to say this is what's happened.

24:43 Deputy State Coroner Jan Stevenson determined that Lynn

24:47 was most likely murdered by a known person and the DPP, the

24:51 director of public prosecutions at the time, didn't lay any

24:54 charges because they said there was insufficient evidence and.

24:57 Yeah, See, that really was a huge bugbear for Damian Loan

25:00 because so he went to them and because typically he said in

25:03 these sorts of incidents where they would say that he could

25:06 approach them and say what's missing, what do I need to get?

25:09 What do I need to do to make this go over the line to say

25:11 that you will. They said to him, we can't, we

25:14 can't do that. We can't tell you.

25:17 Why? Yeah, To this day, he doesn't

25:18 know. They were very secretive.

25:21 Basically, it's confidential. We can't, we can't speak to

25:23 that. Wow In February of 2003, a

25:28 second coronial inquest began with deputy State coroner Carl

25:32 Milovanovic recommending that the DPP lay charges for murder

25:36 by a known person. So by this stage there was

25:39 obviously enough to have another coronial inquest take place.

25:42 There'd been enough investigations in this time.

25:45 So we've, you know, we've had enough of a development.

25:49 Again, the DPP refused to lay any charges, again stating that

25:55 there was insufficient evidence to support a criminal charge

25:58 against any person. So the fact that in the second

26:02 coronial inquest they've said it is now by person.

26:05 Known. Is a big deal the police then?

26:11 So Damian Loon and his team then, I think they knew what

26:15 they were focusing on all along, but in keeping an open mind as

26:18 well, they were investigating all possibilities. 12 years this

26:23 went on, yeah, 12 years. And it wasn't until 2015 where

26:30 the NSW Police Force formed an on an unsolved homicide unit.

26:35 But that was a bit of a tongue for stuff which was led by

26:39 Detective Damian Poole and he actually rate formally reopened

26:43 the investigation into Lynn's disappearance.

26:46 So over the next three years, the incident was under

26:52 investigation by this new unsolved homicide unsolved

26:58 homicide squad. And they they put together a

27:02 brief of evidence that they then wanted the DPP to review.

27:06 And because they thought at that time they had enough

27:09 circumstantial evidence to at least bring a trial, bring it to

27:13 trial and bring a charge. Whoops, sorry.

27:15 So charges. Trial bring a charge against

27:18 Chris. Yeah.

27:19 But again, it LED nowhere. Yeah.

27:22 In September of 2018. So going back in 2000, in the

27:27 year 2000, they did that first excavation of just around the

27:30 pool. Yeah, in 2018.

27:33 So 18 years later, the Dawson's former Bayview property was

27:37 mapped, searched and excavated and no further evidence was

27:41 uncovered. That search was done like the

27:45 the teacher's pet had been launched and it was so Headley

27:49 was already doing a massive amount of research himself

27:52 alongside what was going on with the police that obviously it

27:56 sparked such huge community interest that there was bigger

28:01 push to do more. So obviously then, yeah.

28:03 And other excavations occurred. It's disappointing nothing was

28:06 found, but I don't know. I'm not not, I'm not surprised

28:11 either because to me so much time has gone on.

28:13 And he'd moved in that house. And they'd moved from that what

28:16 year they moved they. Must have moved it was it was

28:18 after 2000. Was it?

28:20 I thought it was even earlier than that I.

28:21 Don't. I'm pretty sure when the.

28:23 Oh actually no, I think I feel right.

28:24 Sorry. Even when the first excavation

28:26 took place, they didn't. Know, no, I feel like they did

28:28 move to like Queensland as he originally planned with her.

28:31 I feel like they did move, which, you know, yeah.

28:34 I mean, I think I think he's not an idiot.

28:36 Like I really honestly think that he whatever did with her

28:40 when she died and potentially that was somewhere near the

28:43 pool, but I think before they moved or whatever, I reckon him

28:46 and his brother would have moved the body.

28:48 Oh, 100%, yeah. So the Teachers Pet podcast

28:51 actually started in the May of that year.

28:53 So the first episode was released in the May, and it

28:56 wasn't until the September that that excavation took place.

28:59 And you're absolutely right. It was due to public outcry

29:03 because people, you know, even when it was first launched, it

29:06 was so wildly popular, the podcast and people really got

29:09 onto it. And when you launch a podcast

29:12 like that, you get your armchair detectives.

29:14 There were people independently investigating this for

29:19 themselves and coming up with their own theories and.

29:21 But also more people were going, hey, I actually remember this

29:25 and I've got information to share too.

29:26 And this is where, like, the neighbor comes into play.

29:29 You know, she's the one who was like, oh, yeah, well, these are

29:33 the things that I remember. Yes.

29:35 You know, that says a lot. But this was, I mean, how many

29:38 years? Almost 40 years after the fact?

29:40 Yeah. Was it 30 something years?

29:42 Like, it's absolutely ridiculous.

29:44 Crazy Oh. You're right, though.

29:48 It meant more and more witnesses came forward to the police and

29:52 also to Headley. Like, he interviewed a lot of

29:54 people who hadn't gone to the police yet.

29:56 To his credit, he handed over everything when the

29:59 investigations were taking place.

30:01 All of his raw tapes, unedited everything.

30:04 Yeah, all of his information. Apparently it was like boxes and

30:07 boxes and boxes. A lot more than that one piece

30:09 of paper that was there when he first looked into it.

30:11 That's. Exactly right, so hats off to

30:14 him. Absolutely.

30:15 He might this none of this ever would have come to the floor.

30:19 So in December of was it December?

30:23 Yes, December 5/2. 1018 Chris Dawson was arrested with

30:29 attempted murder charges and no sorry with a murder charge and

30:34 at that time was he charged for the carnal knowledge.

30:39 No, that came later. Okay, yeah.

30:40 So at this stage he's just been charged with Lynns murder, yes

30:44 Yeah. He submitted 2 bail

30:46 applications. The first was rejected, the

30:48 second was granted with a surety of one and a half million

30:52 Australian dollars. Committal proceedings then

30:57 followed in Feb of 2020. Like right before the pandemic,

31:01 Yeah. I think for us, our world

31:03 shutdown in March of that year was yeah.

31:05 So, you know, he just made it, just made it through.

31:08 Just made it. He was committed to stand trial

31:11 in that committal proceeding because he pled not guilty to

31:15 the charge of Lynn's murder. So at that time they set a trial

31:21 date for much later in that year, not knowing what was

31:24 coming. Yeah.

31:26 I mean, you get it kind of there because there's been quite a gap

31:28 between then and the trial actually occurring.

31:31 But I mean, this is the sort of trial you couldn't have held it

31:33 during lockdown. No, it wasn't 1.

31:36 You could just do online. Like to me, like, that was

31:39 definitely something that had to be done in court.

31:41 In person, it was too. Big it was, too.

31:44 Important. Way too important.

31:45 There were so many witnesses that needed to be called and I

31:47 think because the case was still circumstantial.

31:50 Yeah, it was, it was. I mean, it's all circumstantial

31:52 evidence that they have because they don't have a body.

31:55 That's right. Yeah, I think, I think that's

31:59 that did a service to Lynn's case.

32:02 The fact that it was held in person, because you could see

32:05 people's emotions, you could see the reaction of all of the

32:09 witnesses and everything that kind of goes along with that.

32:13 Absolutely. Yeah, yeah.

32:14 You needed to hear directly from people and see them in the

32:16 court. To me, like, yeah, yeah.

32:18 Definitely Chris's defence. So his brother Peter Dawson was

32:24 a lawyer? Oh my God.

32:26 I really am intrigued by that. I don't know.

32:29 I just don't think that it's ethical.

32:31 Oh, yeah. I don't think it's ethical that

32:33 your brother represents you. I know that there was a

32:35 barrister who was actually there on the day in the court

32:38 proceedings who, you know, spoke and was ahead of it, but

32:41 obviously he's sitting next to that person and, you know,

32:42 directing etcetera. So, but I still just don't know

32:47 that it's ethical that your brother is your legal

32:49 representative. But at the same time, what the

32:53 hell? How can the circumstantial

32:56 evidence is huge on this Oh. Absolutely.

32:58 As a family, I know you stand by and this is where I kind of got,

33:01 I don't think it should be a brother being illegal

33:03 representative because OK, there's you're wanting to stand

33:05 by your brother and you know, and be like supportive in this

33:08 situation, whether they've murdered someone or not.

33:11 You, you know, as family, you rally, but you rally at the same

33:14 time as also being you can love your brother and also know that

33:18 he's done wrong. And I think that that would be

33:21 an awful position to be in. But this family, this family

33:24 would never like that. No.

33:25 They always condoned his shit behaviour.

33:28 Yeah, they knew that he was having an affair with a

33:30 teenager, yes. And he helped him hide it.

33:33 They helped him commit to me knowledge like.

33:37 His brother has, I mean, whether you know, this brother in

33:40 particular, I don't know whether he was participating in those

33:42 activities or what have you, but probably, but there's not

33:46 enough, there's not evidence of that.

33:48 But like you're too close and because so you have knowledge of

33:52 of him and what went on back then.

33:55 I mean, he legit came to him and said, well, how do I have my 16

33:59 year old child, you know, like bride that I wanna be with and

34:04 not lose my money linked up with, with Lynn?

34:06 I mean, to then have him as your legal counsel.

34:09 I just don't think that that's right.

34:11 No, although I I think about that from the context of if it

34:16 was my brother and I was a lawyer and I felt like I had the

34:20 ability I'd. I would, no, I would still be

34:23 like, I will give you, I'll tell you who to go to and who I trust

34:25 to do it for you, but I'd have to sit.

34:28 Out. Help yourself.

34:28 I don't know. I don't know.

34:30 But then. But then I think you're right in

34:33 that if I'd known that a sibling of mine had done something

34:39 wrong, you couldn't then ethically represent them because

34:43 you know they've done something. This is it.

34:46 You're you're actually lying in court.

34:48 Yeah. Because.

34:49 So you're in. Yeah.

34:50 You're in contempt and you're perjuring.

34:51 Yeah. Because he knows.

34:53 He knows, especially the next trial, he knows that that he

34:57 knows what went on there. Oh, so it's.

35:00 I just think I find it really. Yeah.

35:02 Wrong. Prior to this first trial,

35:05 though, Chris's representation, his barrister put it to the

35:09 court that the podcast eroded his fundamental right to the

35:12 presumption of presumption of innocent and innocence and his

35:16 right to stay silent. Yeah.

35:18 And so that there was actually court proceedings in relation to

35:25 the teachers podcast, what that meant for Chris in terms of

35:29 getting a fair trial. Yeah.

35:31 And how the court were were going to handle that.

35:33 So to Headley's credit, they removed all podcasts from his

35:39 podcast from broadcast at that time.

35:41 In Australia, In Australia. So, yeah, internationally you

35:44 could still listen this to it entirely.

35:46 Yeah, which I mean, yeah, you didn't need to pull it from

35:48 there because they weren't going to be jurors in this trial,

35:50 whereas someone in Australia is. I fully get that.

35:52 Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

35:54 And yeah, would that they. So Headley also turned over, as

36:00 I said, all of his research and everything that went with it,

36:03 which took. He then became.

36:05 Detectives. A long time to go through, but

36:07 yeah. He became a witness then that's

36:09 right in the trial, which I would have been really

36:11 frustrating for him like in the in the sense of he's done all

36:14 this hard work. He is, you know, as there was no

36:17 invested in getting Chris Dawson on this 100 like as anyone

36:22 really as equally I would say to as to a family at that point.

36:25 He was with them, you know, he was on their team.

36:27 Oh. He wore the pink ribbons.

36:28 Yeah, absolutely. But he couldn't then be, he

36:32 couldn't hear other people's testimony, all those sorts of

36:34 things. He couldn't actually see the

36:36 court hearing as it would play out.

36:38 Yeah, because he was a witness. You then have to be isolated

36:41 between because you can't hear someone else's testimony and

36:43 then sit, then have and do yours because it might be influenced

36:46 by it. So he was completely removed

36:48 until his testimony. He had been completely done

36:50 before. He could then watch any part of

36:52 the trial and be a part of it. So that would have been really

36:55 hard for him. But at the same time, he

36:59 achieved what he went and set out to do at the same time, so.

37:02 Yeah, he talks about that in the podcast about his experience

37:08 being in the witness box. And it's not the first, it's not

37:10 the last time that that happened with his further investigations

37:13 like he's done many. Other cases, yeah.

37:15 Podcast cases after. He was in the trial box for like

37:18 2 days I think. Yeah, yeah.

37:20 And he talks about how exhausting it is and, you know,

37:24 it's hard to keep in line all of the things, you know, he said he

37:27 did thousands of hours of research and to try and report

37:30 things that were posed to him. Yeah.

37:33 Was really drain. Well, it's.

37:35 Draining because you want to make sure you get what you want

37:38 to said, but you've got to rely on other people's questions to

37:41 do that. So you can't jump ahead and like

37:43 say things without it being a question to you.

37:45 But like at the same time, like the courts don't play out how

37:49 you think they do in movies and stuff Being in the court,

37:52 there's lots of pauses, lots of like lawyers don't always

37:55 succinctly ask their questions and they'll rummage through

37:58 papers and like there's lots of pauses and lots of drain dragged

38:01 out bits. Wait as a witness, he'd be

38:03 sitting there going, what's going to be the next question?

38:08 What am I going to do? And just wait for the lawyer to

38:10 come and bring that question to you, whether that's both the

38:13 prosecution and the defence. So it's a long, it'll be a long

38:17 bloody day sitting there of questions and then being and

38:20 then being asked questions within like going, Nope,

38:21 restrict that from the record. We can't ask that.

38:23 And like gotta go back again and try again and try and get it out

38:26 of them another way. It would be exhausting.

38:29 Yeah, absolutely exhausting. For all of the witnesses, yeah,

38:31 Lynn's you know Members of Lynn's family testified they

38:35 submitted. So the prosecution submitted

38:38 Helenae diary as part of the evidence because so Helena was

38:42 Lynns mum. What did she pass away?

38:44 Do you remember? It was well before all.

38:46 This, it was well before all, yeah, But she kept an incredibly

38:51 detailed diary. She wrote verbatim certain

38:55 conversations that she'd had and all of that.

38:57 Well done to her to do that. I mean, that was just her.

39:00 Yeah, that's it's not even. She didn't even do it because of

39:02 suspicion. No, no, no.

39:03 Anything that's in like diary and journaling like that was a

39:07 bigger thing I think than it is today.

39:08 I'd love to go back. I remember when I was a kid, I

39:11 used to say and all, yeah, I'd love to go back and read.

39:14 Them No, I don't think I've got. I would cringe something

39:16 shocking. I think I know where I think

39:19 I've got all mine, actually. It'd be so interesting to go

39:22 back and read them. It'd be gross.

39:26 Oh. Jesus, Mum's just been horrible

39:28 to me all day. My brother's shit.

39:32 My brother's awful. Oh God, sounds like today.

39:38 Yeah, actually, What? Sorry.

39:39 What? What's changed?

39:41 Yeah, yeah, a lot. Not a lot.

39:43 Just that much. I don't like not hate my mum

39:45 anymore. I know I appreciate her if

39:47 you're. A teenagehood you're like, Oh

39:49 yeah. Oh crap, I was awful.

39:52 God, it's a right of happy. Absolutely.

39:55 In September of 2020, Supreme Court Justice Fullerton rejected

39:59 Dawson's application for a permanent stain proceedings,

40:01 which he'd said based on the podcast and the fact that he was

40:05 never going to get a fair trial. Yeah, that was that was

40:11 rejected. He then the judge actually did

40:14 grant him a temporary state of proceedings for nine months to

40:17 relieve the concerns of fairness sparked by the podcast.

40:20 So I think this was nine months where the podcast wasn't going

40:23 to be available in Australia. Yeah, they could, you know, find

40:26 enough, potentially find enough jurors who hadn't engaged in the

40:29 content etcetera, etcetera. He appealed that, of course,

40:34 because that's just what the proceeds they do.

40:36 Yeah, but the trial was rescheduled then to commit.

40:39 So he appealed like to the High Court.

40:40 Like, yeah, you kept going. All of the appeal processes,

40:43 they all said no, fuck off, you've actually got to face

40:46 this. Yeah.

40:47 So the trial was then rescheduled to commence on the

40:49 9th of May in 2022. Yeah.

40:53 So he made in just before that he actually made an application

40:58 for his trial to be heard by a judge only.

41:00 So a judge alone trial. Which I think was, I mean, I

41:04 mean, I think it was a good move, to be honest, in that

41:07 respect. I do agree that due to the

41:10 podcast, potentially he would have struggled to find a jury

41:13 that we're going to be impartial entirely.

41:17 So I think that that was, you know, but that's an option

41:19 available to anybody to do that. So yeah.

41:22 In Australia, though, when an indictable criminal offence

41:25 proceeds to trial, evidence is generally presented to a judge

41:29 and 12 jurors you know randomly selected from the.

41:32 Very rare that we have a judge only.

41:33 Trial here in Australia, I think in Australia it's a very, very

41:36 yeah. But I completely and in fact, I

41:39 think this is like someone of the cases that goes to teachings

41:43 for students like law students because it is not that common

41:47 here. Yeah.

41:48 And for reasons that, you know, for the first time ever, a

41:51 podcast had it actually caused that to happen.

41:54 Yeah. And I don't think it'll be the

41:55 last. I really don't and.

41:56 Then you've got you think about all of the media coverage for

41:59 many cases and what influenced this case in case a precedent

42:04 has would give to future cases in terms of any media coverage.

42:09 It's it's really fascinating. Yeah.

42:12 Dawson's trial was heard by Justice Ian Harrison, who?

42:16 Oh my God, you can listen to his full verdict.

42:19 It's like friggin 40 pages. Yeah, it's really like hours.

42:24 He took hours to read it until it's caught.

42:26 Yeah. Yeah, it's a lot.

42:29 He's a lovely man, a really kind, empathetic, very fair,

42:35 very just his. His finding had to be.

42:42 Like watertight? Absolutely.

42:44 Otherwise he was going to be criticized endlessly of like

42:46 being himself, being influenced by the podcast.

42:49 So I think even though he did stayed at the start, he had

42:52 never listened to the podcast. He didn't even know what

42:55 podcasts were. Loving.

43:00 Yeah. So, yeah, on the 31st of August

43:05 2022, he pronounced that the verdict was that Dawson was

43:12 guilty of murdering his wife Lynette on or soon after the 8th

43:16 of January in 1982. Yeah.

43:19 Now, is it worth having a chat about what we think actually

43:22 happened? Because it hasn't really.

43:24 I mean, there's theories everywhere.

43:26 Yeah, because there's no actual hard evidence there.

43:29 He hasn't. We don't really know what

43:32 actually happened, But I have a theory about what.

43:34 Happened. Do you?

43:35 I do, I do. I'd love to hear yours.

43:37 OK, yeah. So I think when Chris made Lynn

43:41 that nice drink that night, he has laced something in there

43:44 that has caused her to pass out or even potentially that could

43:49 have killed her. I don't know.

43:51 He's then perpetrated a murder against her.

43:53 He's hidden her body overnight and then gone to the pool the

43:58 next morning with the girls. Whether or not that night he's

44:02 done anything, I don't think so. I think Lynn's body stayed at

44:05 the house or somewhere near the house that the on the the night

44:09 before. I think he this and this is

44:11 awful in that where was JC at this point?

44:14 Where is she living at that point?

44:15 We don't know she. Wasn't at that.

44:16 No, she wasn't at the house. So I, I mean, because he, he,

44:20 his brother gives an alibi of him being at his place.

44:23 I honestly think whatever's happened with Lynn has happened

44:26 and he's I've like he's left those two young girls asleep.

44:28 See, I reckon. And he's gone to his night, you

44:31 reckon? Yeah, because Helena took the 2

44:33 girls home from the pool and they stayed that night with her

44:37 at Chris's insistence. Yeah.

44:39 So I think he's hidden. You know, I don't think he's

44:42 moved the body that night, I think, but I think he's gone,

44:44 he's done that, gone running to his brother, right?

44:47 And I reckon he was at Paul's house that night, but Lynn was

44:50 not alive back at her place. I think she's, he's confessed to

44:53 Paul what he's done, Right. And then that's where the two of

44:56 them have come up with this plan.

44:57 We'll sort this out. Just leave it where like she's

45:00 right where she is right now. You know, like tomorrow we're

45:02 going to plant this seed with people and that she's going to

45:04 disappear, like, you know, and then we'll sort it out from

45:07 there. I reckon that's sort of that

45:10 part of the evening played out. And then they've moved her body

45:12 the next day, I think. Yeah, that next night when the

45:15 girls went there and stuff, Paul and him have then done whatever.

45:18 Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

45:20 I mean, this is just what we think.

45:21 Yeah, never been necessarily. Proven.

45:23 I really think what what has happened is that he has he in

45:26 his mind has realized that JC is pulling away.

45:30 He's got to bring her in more to be able to keep her.

45:34 So he needs to get Lynn out. And I think that, yeah, he's

45:37 given her. He's like in that evening, he's

45:38 like, what am I gonna like it's built up to some sort of like

45:41 he's had the marriage counseling session and like, this is I'm

45:44 not fucking doing this. Like, you know, I need to get

45:47 her out of here and well. You know what, the counselor

45:49 probably saw something in him that he didn't like being

45:52 reflected back at him. You know, so he was like, I'm

45:54 not fucking doing that again. I'm not, I'm not being told that

45:57 I've done something wrong. I'm not taking accountability

46:00 here. But I shouldn't hit my wife and

46:02 I shouldn't be, you know, off fucking a 16 year.

46:05 Old. Yeah, you know, yeah, it's, I

46:07 reckon that that counselling session was quite possibly quite

46:09 surface anyway being a first session.

46:12 But at this, but even at that, he would have rejected doing any

46:14 more of that. So I think that it's all

46:17 escalated for him that day of his frustration of I'm not

46:19 getting what I want. So do you think he, like it was

46:22 premeditated at that point? Because the day that, you know,

46:25 we think she was murdered, they did have that counselling

46:29 session. She I Lynn spoke to her

46:32 colleagues saying they were holding hands and.

46:34 Yeah, see, I, I have a theory here.

46:37 So this is my theory that Lynn, in her mindset, things are

46:42 moving where she wants them to, right?

46:43 They're going to have their marriage back on track.

46:45 He's given her that drink. And I think that Lynn going, I'm

46:50 going to make sure this marriage stays on track.

46:52 We're doing so well. I think she's made advances

46:55 like, you know, let's have some, some special time and like

46:59 literally cement this fact that we're going going back on track.

47:03 He wants a young flirty thing. I'm I'm had a few drinks.

47:05 So I'm going to I'm loose here. And I think he has gone Oh fuck

47:09 no, this wasn't my plan. And then he's and I think that's

47:13 become a push and shove in it. It's gone from there.

47:17 That's what that's what I think would have played out in that

47:20 scenario of her thinking one way of where this is heading and

47:23 he's entirely actually going the opposite direction that that has

47:27 then imploded on them and that that.

47:29 Even escalated that night. Yeah.

47:31 Yeah. Do you think he'd planned to do

47:34 it? No, I don't think planned as in

47:35 like. Yeah, that night I'm gonna kill.

47:37 Her, I'm gonna kill her. I think that it's that it's

47:40 eventuated to a point of like, fuck, she wants this.

47:43 She thinks this is this marriage is gonna get fixed and I don't

47:47 want her attention. And maybe he's got physical with

47:49 her and that that that physical rejection has.

47:52 And she's maybe fired back at him of like, how dare you?

47:55 I thought we were fixing this, you know, like, and with her

47:58 being a bit intoxicated and all those sorts of things that he's

48:01 created. Yeah.

48:03 I think it's all just blown up from there.

48:04 And then he's taken it. That whole next step.

48:07 Yeah. And it's unfortunately ended up

48:09 where it did. So it's still intent in terms

48:11 of, oh, absolutely what he's done.

48:13 But not premeditated. Yeah.

48:14 Hours, days prior. Yeah.

48:17 Yeah. I do think it's certainly not

48:19 defence or anything like that to be called into it.

48:21 I don't think, you know. Yeah.

48:23 Because he's certainly a lot stronger than her, that's for

48:24 sure. Oh yeah.

48:25 I mean, she was. She wasn't a big lady.

48:28 No, but I mean, the girls were young, they wouldn't know what

48:30 was going on. So yeah.

48:31 And I do, I agree with you that they've he's then put the body

48:35 somewhere at that point, but nowhere necessarily permanently

48:39 and gone straight to his brother.

48:41 Oh, I've just killed her. Fuck, she's dead.

48:43 Like you know, and he's done that.

48:44 We'll sort this out. What kind of?

48:46 Ask good. Culpability.

48:48 What kind of culpability does the sister-in-law have too?

48:51 Because. I bet she knows.

48:53 Everything. I feel like she knows

48:54 everything, yeah. Because yeah, I just don't see

48:59 how she couldn't. And how did even if she didn't

49:02 know, she knew? She knew enough.

49:06 What was going on? She knew enough, she knew

49:08 intimately enough what was going on between Chris and Joanne

49:13 because fucking hell, they'd been housing Joanne.

49:17 See. Where's the fucking sisterhood?

49:18 Many, but yeah. Where exactly and why are we

49:21 protecting these toxic men? Mm hmm.

49:25 No. Because I mean, I dare say that

49:28 she was in a very similar situational in, I dare say Paul

49:31 would be physical with her potentially, you know, and and

49:34 abusive. I don't know.

49:36 There's nothing out there to say that, but he was absolutely, we

49:39 know now he was absolute. What's come out we now women,

49:44 but who were young girls at the time, have come out to say that

49:48 Paul was absolutely having. Multiple.

49:51 Multiple inappropriate relationships with young girls

49:58 as well Chris is. Somewhat only redeeming feature

50:01 in this is that he's stuck with one.

50:02 Like you know, like there's not evidence of him doing this to

50:05 multiple girls I guess. Whereas Paul in his scenario, he

50:09 was like he was jumping from girl to girl.

50:13 I don't. I honestly don't know what's

50:15 worse I. Think no, I think.

50:16 What Chris did was. I don't yeah.

50:18 I don't know if there's a worst. I think I think they're awful.

50:21 They're just awful. And just the different scenarios

50:23 like as to how they've gone about their their awfulness.

50:26 Yeah, but I do I lump Marilyn in there.

50:29 I do think that whatever she maybe she didn't know all of it.

50:33 I think she knew enough to not question and not voice things

50:38 and I reckon not question it. I know that that level of

50:42 loyalty is actually is is toxic and not right.

50:46 Yeah. How could you know someone like

50:48 Lynn from I mean, she would have known her from six, the age of

50:52 16. They were all around each other

50:54 from such a young age and know that someone has has done some

50:59 harm to her and they're not they were.

51:02 Really good. Friends, they were close in law,

51:05 they. Lived literally down the road

51:06 from one another they brought up.

51:08 I mean, I think Paul and Marilyn's kids were slightly

51:12 older than than Chris and Lynette, but they they had their

51:17 families together like she was they were.

51:20 Close. Your children's auntie, yes, has

51:25 died at your brother in Yep. Yep, Yep, throughout the 40

51:39 years of from when Lynn disappeared and now we know, you

51:44 know, was murdered up until the the time that the case went to

51:49 trial, there were 12 witnesses that could that provided

51:54 evidence in the years prior right had passed away.

51:58 Oh wow. I don't know.

51:59 It was that many, Yeah. So.

52:00 Much, Yeah, which is, I mean, it's not surprising in that time

52:03 frame, four years. Yeah.

52:04 And among them were, you know. So does that mean any of their

52:08 like if they've given testimony prior like written or you know,

52:11 that there's documented evidence, can that still be read

52:13 into course? Yeah.

52:14 So some of it was admissible. I mean, obviously they must

52:17 have, they must have had to be cross.

52:19 Examined. Can it?

52:20 That was the problem, yeah. So they had to take it article

52:23 by article. And like, you know, obviously

52:26 the defence of would argue as to why it was not admissible.

52:30 It said, yeah, but things like Helena's diary entries, they

52:34 were allowed in. And yeah, they were part of what

52:36 built the circumstantial case against Chris.

52:39 I guess it's up to the police officers then to present that,

52:42 Is that right? To then present the the evidence

52:44 that they've got like, even though there's not a person to

52:47 bring it. Yes, I believe so.

52:48 So the the prosecutor would. Introduce Damian Loan would have

52:52 been on the stand giving that evidence potentially, yeah,

52:54 yeah. So it's it's very, sort of very,

52:57 very interesting. But then also over those 40

52:59 years, and we've spoken about this in other cases as well, a

53:03 lot of evidence, like physical evidence went missing.

53:06 Yeah, things, I mean, over the time, yes, more and more was put

53:09 in that box that originally had one piece of paper.

53:12 But, you know, police stations move and evidence gets lost and

53:16 statements and, you know, go from being paper based to

53:20 digital and things don't get scanned properly.

53:23 So there was stuff like that that happened in this case as

53:26 well. Yeah.

53:27 And then I guess you think about things that that records that do

53:30 get lost, bank statements, phone records, because the other thing

53:34 is, you know, that phone call that supposedly took place at

53:37 the baths on the day that Lynn went missing, that's never been

53:42 able to be proven whether a phone call actually.

53:44 Came in that day or not. Because it wasn't investigated

53:46 at the time and the records, they only have to stay.

53:50 I don't know. Say it's seven years.

53:51 I don't know how long. It is, but it's not 40, you

53:53 know. No, they spoke to the people who

53:55 were working that day at the bars.

53:57 And how do you remember 40 years ago, did you receive a phone

54:01 call and pass the phone on to to Chris?

54:04 I think there was a young, because there was a young girl,

54:06 I think it was, it was working there.

54:07 Who has a recollection of some sort of potentially she's like,

54:11 maybe I called him and said, hey, come to the phone.

54:15 Lynn's on the phone. That's what he says happened.

54:17 And she can't really say yes or no to that.

54:20 She's like, oh, maybe because she goes, I would have

54:22 definitely have done that. Over the course of the time of

54:25 working with Chris at the bath, that exact scenario would have

54:29 occurred. Lynn would have rung him there,

54:31 you know, every second shift potentially.

54:34 And she said I have definitely done that.

54:36 Did I do it on that date? On that day as?

54:40 If you would remember as if. Maybe unless you.

54:43 Kept. But even if you kept, you don't

54:45 know it's. Just yeah.

54:47 Would you have even written that in a journal on that day to say

54:49 you did that? Because at that point in time,

54:51 she wasn't reported missing. It wasn't, like until six weeks

54:54 after the fact that she was reported missing that she could

54:57 have even potentially have been questioned by a police officer.

55:00 And even then, six weeks ago, did you answer a call from Lynn

55:03 again? I don't know.

55:05 Even when, even when the six, you know, even when he reported

55:10 it six weeks later, the police didn't do anything.

55:12 They didn't go and look for witnesses or look to corroborate

55:15 his story at all. No, no.

55:17 You know they didn't. They didn't do that at that

55:19 point even, but even if they had, I think it would have been

55:21 difficult to remember like. Yeah, you better remember who

55:23 you, you know, in a place like that where you're taking phone

55:25 calls all day. Yeah, like I'm because

55:28 especially then there was no mobile phone.

55:29 So any phone calls that were going to be made to employees

55:32 were made at that by that, you know, that phone.

55:34 I'm sure she took a phone call and said to, you know, anyone

55:37 there, you know, at some point, hey, your wife's on the phone or

55:39 your your mum's on the phone or, you know, so it's just yeah, it

55:43 would be impossible to remember that sort of thing.

55:46 But on the phone call situation he said that he had he would

55:49 spoken to Lynn a number of times over those days of those first

55:53 initial days of her missing what So she was ringing you but no

55:56 one else like. That's very convenient.

55:58 And her mum, yeah, didn't call, like, yeah.

56:02 So her mum actually said that. It wasn't in a statement or

56:06 anything I think. I think it was in her journals

56:07 that she was journals. I think she wrote something

56:09 there about. It rather.

56:10 Might have been. He she'd spoken to her, to

56:12 Lynn's brother Greg about it. Yeah, but her mum basically said

56:16 like, Lynn knew I had the girls because she would have known I

56:20 would have taken them. And if she's phoned home to

56:23 Chris and wanted to speak to the girls, he would have said that

56:25 the. Girls, they're telling me, yeah.

56:27 So she would have called. Yeah.

56:28 Like that even, you know, she couldn't believe that.

56:33 Yeah, she couldn't. It wasn't that she couldn't

56:34 believe that. I don't know.

56:37 She. We don't.

56:38 Want. She didn't want to believe that

56:39 was Chris. I can't.

56:40 You know you. Yeah.

56:41 I think you're right. I think she didn't even really

56:44 conceal. I don't know what she when we're

56:46 talking, you know, early 80s, we didn't have the knowledge we

56:50 have now of what's being put together of that, you know,

56:52 these these sorts of domestic violence murders occur and that

56:57 you know, it's perpetrated by people within knowledge of, you

57:00 know, family husbands, you know, those sorts of people are who

57:04 perpetrate this. I think there was still a

57:06 mindset of this sort of thing happens by strangers.

57:08 You know strangers do awful things to us, not people we

57:11 know, whereas we now know that. These sorts of things. 90% of

57:16 the time it is someone who's known and known intimately to

57:20 that person. So with the knowledge of that in

57:23 in our mindset, we would be definitely jumping down that and

57:26 to the point where, you know, you see the husband on on the TV

57:29 when someone goes missing, you're like, oh, looking for

57:32 something because clearly he's suspect number one.

57:34 Yeah, I think in the 80s he wasn't suspect #1 the husband.

57:37 Wasn't, I think, I think you're right.

57:39 And you've got to think about it in that context.

57:41 But it's really hard to think about it, Yeah, from where we're

57:43 sitting right now. Well, in the second trial, I

57:45 find this, that one really hard to put a lens on it of 80s

57:49 compared to us now. Totally, Yeah.

57:52 In that verdict, Justice Harrison stated I'm just going

57:56 to read out what he said about the circumstantial evidence.

57:59 He said the circumstantial evidence in this case,

58:02 considering as a whole is persuasive and compelling.

58:05 None of the circumstances considered alone can establish

58:08 Mr. Dawson's guilt. But when regard is had to the

58:11 combined force, I am left in no doubt.

58:15 I am satisfied beyond a reasonable doubt that Dawson's

58:18 murder of Lynette is the only rational inference.

58:23 He was resolute. In his absolutely finding

58:27 absolutely no, you know, no, no, no, no, no.

58:32 He was beyond a reasonable doubt, that's for sure.

58:34 I mean, the things that he so the the the evidence that they

58:38 had that they put to court to basically get him to this point

58:42 was witnesses, witness reports of Dawson committing acts of

58:46 violence against Lynn, the deterioration of the marriage.

58:50 Yeah, which was reported by Lynn to lots of different people.

58:54 Yeah. Dawsons affair and infatuation

58:56 with JC witness accounts of Dawsons violent, aggressive and

59:02 controlling behavior and the unlikelihood of Lynette

59:05 disappearing of her own will and leaving her children financial

59:08 access. Yeah, and all possessions

59:10 behind. Yeah.

59:10 She didn't even take a handbag. No wedding rings anything?

59:13 No. So that's that's all the things

59:16 that, you know, Justice Harrison, you know, used in

59:19 order to in order to give the finding that he gave.

59:25 Yes, you want to go to. Well, so the sentencing, did

59:30 you? Oh, did I say?

59:31 I think so. So he was sentenced to 24 years

59:34 in prison with a non parole period of 18 years, which I mean

59:38 doesn't sound like a lot for killing somebody in some ways.

59:41 But I think was being factored in that he had his age at the

59:44 time, I think seventeen, 72574 something.

59:47 Like that he was over 70, old. Yeah.

59:51 So I think that was being factored into the sentencing

59:53 that obviously 24 years, chances are he won't be alive anyway

59:57 and. Even if he gets out, he's gonna

59:59 have no. Yeah, so the the family also

1:00:04 then after this with his. So he's got obviously a parole

1:00:06 period, you know, I think it's 2041 he'd be eligible for

1:00:11 parole. Is this.

1:00:13 And so there's actually they have put into law something that

1:00:18 was there anyway, which we've discussed in another case that

1:00:21 could be used, but now it must be used.

1:00:24 Is this no, no parole, nobody, no parole.

1:00:27 So basically, unless he is going to come up and go, yeah, this is

1:00:32 where Lynn's body is, this is what happened, he cannot be

1:00:35 considered for parole in 18 years anyway.

1:00:37 So that additional six years that's being added, it will be

1:00:40 seen because he's not, he's not talking.

1:00:43 So yeah, we're looking at a full sentence anyway.

1:00:46 But then what came of it too was obviously this JC, what was then

1:00:51 brought, she brought forward a further charge on Chris for the

1:00:57 his cardinal knowledge of of her during her time as a pupil of

1:01:02 his. So this is where the law gets

1:01:04 really icky in terms of what the law was back in 1981 compared to

1:01:11 2020, well 2022 when this was, yeah, this was.

1:01:15 But obviously we have very different knowledge these days

1:01:19 to, you know, children's brain development and when they should

1:01:23 be considered as, you know, having giving consent, etcetera.

1:01:27 But also the fact that this there was this link towards the

1:01:30 fact of not only did this blows my mind that literally someone

1:01:35 could have had sex with this girl who was 16, but not be

1:01:39 their teacher. And that would be OK.

1:01:42 But because he was she was his student and she was under the

1:01:46 age of 17. Sorry.

1:01:48 So that meant that he could he can't have sex with her while

1:01:51 she's while he's her student, But the day she turns 17 and is

1:01:56 or is no longer a student, either of those two things.

1:01:59 So she could be still be 17 and be a be a student, but or the

1:02:03 other way around. And he can have sex with her

1:02:07 then, which that just blows my mind that that law was back

1:02:12 then. So a trial took place.

1:02:15 So that was it was a really she had to prove that she was 16 and

1:02:21 still his student when they first had sex, which would have

1:02:26 just been. Imagine having to as a victim,

1:02:29 having to prove like a horrible like to.

1:02:33 Thankfully, thankfully. Thankfully.

1:02:35 She had friends, she had witnesses.

1:02:39 There was actually. Was there another school teacher

1:02:41 who testified? For her?

1:02:44 Oh, I can't remember. I feel like there was a teacher

1:02:47 or or maybe a school administrator.

1:02:50 Someone who witnessed. Someone who witnessed.

1:02:52 Things there's only people who said like there was witnesses

1:02:54 that said that they came, came into the office, like into Chris

1:02:57 Dawson's office and found him like straddling her on the desk,

1:03:01 you know, and that that was basically like, that's right.

1:03:03 The girl had come in to say I can't do sport today, like, you

1:03:05 know, and put a note on the deck.

1:03:06 He's like, put the note down. Whatever got you go.

1:03:08 They didn't move from their position of being in this

1:03:11 provocative, intimate position. But yeah, like so those

1:03:14 witnesses of those sorts of things, the trolley boy that we

1:03:16 talked about in Episode 1 around how he, you know, bailed him up

1:03:21 at Woolies or whatever and said to him, stay away from her.

1:03:24 That obviously was being very protective of her and that he

1:03:27 was she was his, not someone else's.

1:03:29 Not protective, just office. Yeah, exactly.

1:03:32 Yeah. So there was many witnesses, but

1:03:33 particularly this witness that was named CD who came forward in

1:03:36 this trial where she discussed where she remembers being.

1:03:41 So Chris and Paul ran these fitness classes outside of

1:03:45 school hours and all the girls from the school would be there.

1:03:48 So they would be running these. One of the twins would do like

1:03:51 one song of the fitness class and then they'd swap over and

1:03:54 the other twin would run the class while the other one was in

1:03:57 the backroom with a 16 year old girl.

1:04:00 Now I have also heard. Now I've only actually read this

1:04:03 in one place, but I did read that there were instances where

1:04:09 both men so Chris and Paul in the same room, yes, having sex

1:04:16 with different. Girls.

1:04:17 Girls, yes. So there was sexual like I'm

1:04:21 just getting total White Lotus vibes here.

1:04:24 Have you watched it? Yes yes, Oh my God, Patrick

1:04:27 Schwarzenegger. But Oh my God that is fucking

1:04:32 disgusting. You're having sex with a girl

1:04:35 next to your brother who's also having sex with a girl in the

1:04:37 same room. Ill.

1:04:38 There and there have been allegations that they both then

1:04:42 would participate. Yeah, see, that's, this is the

1:04:44 White Lotus 5 bit. That's the thing, right?

1:04:47 So they're having these this group sex with their brother

1:04:55 like it's bad enough and. Then we're again, we're flicking

1:04:58 back to that beginning of our last episode where you brought

1:05:00 up around that Chequers interview, Chequerboard

1:05:03 interview where they they brought up sexual.

1:05:04 It's not sexual, clearly, but, well, it's not sexual what we

1:05:09 think it might have been. Yeah.

1:05:10 So how long had that been going on between the two of them?

1:05:12 Yeah, I mean, they were talking about that before they had kids.

1:05:16 Yeah, so. Previous, previous, yeah,

1:05:21 because there was, and there was other times where they they were

1:05:23 in the pool together and they'd be one couple down one end of

1:05:25 the pool and you know, Paul and his girl at the time down the

1:05:28 other end of the pool. And we're talking 1617 year old

1:05:31 girls. And we're talking unclothed.

1:05:34 Yeah, At least topless. Yeah, probably.

1:05:37 So again, that was a judge alone trial as well.

1:05:42 And at the end of that, the judge found very clearly that JC

1:05:46 was telling the truth in that she was only 16 and had not

1:05:50 turned 17 and also that at that time she was his student.

1:05:54 So he was convicted of that as well.

1:05:57 He was sentenced for that an additional four years and two

1:06:03 years non parole. I think at the end of the day,

1:06:06 what it actually it only actually added an extra 12

1:06:09 months onto his full sentence. But again, I think no, sorry, 12

1:06:15 months onto his parole ability, right.

1:06:18 But we can't. He's not going to get that

1:06:20 parole. No.

1:06:21 So we're actually talking the full amount.

1:06:23 I think he's now up to about, I want to say he has no chance of

1:06:27 getting out before 2042. If you're 45, it might be yet.

1:06:31 And so he'll be dead by then. Yeah, like, I mean, he's well

1:06:35 into his, well into his 90s by that stage.

1:06:38 So he won't be. He'll be living out his life in.

1:06:40 Prison. He'll be a year off 100, then

1:06:43 he'll be 99, then so will he? No, he'll be early 90.

1:06:49 Yeah. I mean, ultimately because they

1:06:50 had to only, they could only chart like as we're saying that

1:06:53 they could only use the law of the day of when it happened and

1:06:57 not today. And so the judge had to be very

1:06:59 careful around what sentencing that he could give as well,

1:07:03 because it had to be the maximums and things of that law

1:07:07 of that day. Whereas we just know so much

1:07:10 more of that this 16 year old should not be held accountable

1:07:13 at all for any of these and that she was groomed and that that's

1:07:17 wrong. Whereas the lens of the 1980s

1:07:20 was that that that was grooming. They didn't know what grooming

1:07:24 was, you know, so well, that would be as difficult as a

1:07:28 judge, I think. I mean, bad, not hard enough as

1:07:30 us onlookers to because I hear the sentencing for that and go,

1:07:34 that's fucked up. That's so bad.

1:07:36 Appropriate. But it was like woefully low in

1:07:39 the context of the law that was in place at the time they had to

1:07:42 go by, but also the context of his age, taking into account all

1:07:46 those sorts of things. It's kind of what do you expect?

1:07:50 You know, like it's it's going to play out as it's going to

1:07:52 play out that he's going to live out his life in jail.

1:07:54 Yep, as he fucking deserves it. Shits me up the wall that he has

1:07:58 lived the majority of his life outside of those walls of

1:08:01 prison. It's worth saying he remarried

1:08:04 to a woman named Sue. Yes, after his marriage to JC

1:08:09 ended and she's. They're still married to this

1:08:11 day. Yeah.

1:08:13 What? She knew or didn't know?

1:08:15 I mean he lived in QLD so he moved permanently to Queensland

1:08:19 after his relationship breakdown with JC.

1:08:22 He moved to they moved to the Gold Coast.

1:08:24 The two like the two of them did.

1:08:25 JC move back to. I think she must have, yeah.

1:08:29 So, you know, I don't know how much his new wife knew about all

1:08:33 this before it came to the fore, but he would have thought he got

1:08:35 away with. It oh, yeah, 100%.

1:08:37 And the arrogance of him would be that yeah, like, what the

1:08:40 hell? Why are you all talking about

1:08:41 this? This is so long ago.

1:08:42 Like, whatever, Get over it. Yeah.

1:08:44 But then thank God for the teacher's pet, because I really

1:08:47 don't think that this would have come to the fore and I don't

1:08:52 think he'd be in prison right now if it wasn't for Headley's

1:08:54 investigation. Absolutely, yeah.

1:08:57 He managed to flush out so much more of what what it was and to

1:09:00 bring it to the. I don't think that's the thing.

1:09:02 I don't think the DPP would have prosecuted and arrested him if

1:09:07 there wasn't the public interest in it because it was going to

1:09:09 keep being pushed like, you know, calm on.

1:09:11 Are you serious? And.

1:09:11 They're like, you know, it was 40 years ago, like, you know,

1:09:14 and these trials do cost millions of dollars, the

1:09:16 taxpayers millions of dollars. So there's got to be

1:09:18 justification and and good reason to which is fair.

1:09:21 That's fine. Yeah.

1:09:22 But thank God there was that public push.

1:09:25 And the other thing that I've, I've heard Headley interviewed

1:09:28 many times, but one of the things that he says is in cases

1:09:33 like this, the police need to work with investigative

1:09:36 journalists because they have money.

1:09:38 Yeah, they have time. Yeah, they can dedicate, like

1:09:40 Headley dedicated 2 1/2 years solely on the teachers pet.

1:09:45 Yes. So he had, you know, he had the

1:09:47 backing of the Australian. It absolutely worked to their

1:09:50 advantage. Oh, absolutely.

1:09:51 It was worth it. It was worth.

1:09:52 It and all of the ones that he's done that he has done

1:09:55 subsequently because he then went on to do the teachers trial

1:09:57 where he covered the full trial. He's gone on to do Shandy's

1:10:00 story. There's so many the night.

1:10:02 Driver. Night driver.

1:10:03 Yeah, there's so many that he has done that have all led to.

1:10:07 Bronwyn's his. Latest 1 isn't it?

1:10:09 Yeah, Bronwyn, which have all led to some resolution in the

1:10:13 case or some pushing forward of the case.

1:10:15 So, you know, we need to be thinking about investigations of

1:10:20 these things in a different light.

1:10:21 And I think the teachers pet has shown us that that that's, you

1:10:25 know, that's a wonderful thing. The media can be very powerful.

1:10:29 Absolutely, yeah. Last thing I just want to say,

1:10:32 too, was at the trial when he the conviction was read out, did

1:10:38 you know about his response? So he thought the cameras had

1:10:41 been turned off because it was actually he was, he was actually

1:10:44 in prison because he they asked for him to not be brought in all

1:10:47 the time into the courts because he was frail and, you know,

1:10:49 like, so that's hard. No worries.

1:10:50 So he's on video link and he thought that the cameras were

1:10:53 all off on the video link from the courts and he responded

1:10:56 with. Fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck fuck.

1:11:00 I just love that that he was pissed off.

1:11:02 Yeah, suck shit mate. Suck shit, yeah, but I mean he

1:11:06 knows he's done it like although he again, he's.

1:11:10 Convinced himself, I reckon that he hasn't done it for some or

1:11:12 something. But yeah, I don't know how you

1:11:14 how do you live your life knowing you've taken your the

1:11:18 mother of your children's life? How do you live with yourself?

1:11:23 And like, at the end of the day, money's money.

1:11:25 I know money's important, but for fuck's sake, if he had a

1:11:28 divorce, Lynn, in 1982, financially they both would have

1:11:31 been fine by now. It would have moved on.

1:11:32 They would have. They would have been OK.

1:11:35 You know that. As I said, they weren't

1:11:36 destitute. Yes, your life changes when you

1:11:39 get divorced. Yes, of course, you don't have

1:11:41 the joint assets of the family. You make the choices you make.

1:11:44 That's it. And.

1:11:45 Like fucking just divorce or don't kill her.

1:11:47 Yep, seriously do. Yeah, it's just seriously.

1:11:52 Seriously. All right.

1:11:54 Should we leave it there? I think we've.

1:11:56 Done. You know what I just realized?

1:11:58 I haven't looked to see what we're investigating next week.

1:12:00 I do. What I know, I know.

1:12:03 But I you know why I know I know this because someone's been

1:12:07 hassling us to do it. I know exactly now that you say

1:12:11 that. I love this so one of our

1:12:13 regular commenters on the on Instagram, I think, Oh no, she's

1:12:17 all over the place. She's she's comments every

1:12:18 Spotify Nicole, otherwise known as nudes.

1:12:22 Love your work. Thanks Nudes, but News has been

1:12:24 very, very, very keen for us to do a particular case.

1:12:27 Every time. She comments should suggest as

1:12:29 I'm still waiting. Well here it comes nudes.

1:12:33 So next week we are doing the Claremont, yes, so.

1:12:39 I actually there is a lot to that case and Oh my God, it's a

1:12:43 heart wrenching one, but it's also one that I feel like has

1:12:47 gotten a bit lost because there was a two, there was a

1:12:50 dramatization. Oh my God, I'll find out this

1:12:54 finally. Look into it.

1:12:56 But I feel like it's one of those cases that sometimes I'll

1:12:59 say it to people and I thought it was quite well known because

1:13:01 I listened to a podcast about it.

1:13:03 But even with. You I followed daily like the

1:13:05 trial like. Yeah, but then people don't know

1:13:08 details, so this might be a good one.

1:13:10 I think actually it's one where you I think in that like the

1:13:12 trial was just starting. You're like, you're on this

1:13:14 right? And I'm like, huh, what?

1:13:16 And I think that was when I got was like, Oh my God, I didn't

1:13:18 know about this one and followed from then on like.

1:13:21 It's good, but yeah, it's a good case.

1:13:22 It is interesting, very interesting, interesting, yes.

1:13:25 So we're looking forward to this one.

1:13:26 It's, yeah, just a big one, but we're here for it.

1:13:29 That's it. And you nudes.

1:13:32 So join us next week for that. It's a big one.

1:13:34 So join us for that. Yeah, please as always, like,

1:13:38 subscribe, send us messages, DMS, follow us on Spotify, on

1:13:44 Apple Podcasts, Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, YouTube, all.

1:13:48 We're all. Everywhere.

1:13:50 If you want to send us an e-mail, you can at 2 Crime, so

1:13:53 they're all written out. TWO [email protected] if

1:13:57 you've got some case suggestions and if you would like to buy us

1:14:01 a coffee, you can do so at buymeacoffee.com/two Crime

1:14:06 Besties. I think I didn't shout out the

1:14:09 other day, but attractive. My friend from work bought us a

1:14:11 couple of coffee, so thanks for that attractor.

1:14:13 I did thank her in person, but you know.

1:14:16 Love that. Thank you.

1:14:16 I love it. I.

1:14:17 Really appreciate it. All good.

1:14:19 Well, stay curious, crime besties, and we'll see you next

1:14:22 week. Bye.