Episode 46 - Lynette Simms (Dawson) & Chris Dawson (The Teachers Pet Case) Part 2

0:15 Welcome, everybody, to our second part of the Chris Dawson, Lynn Dawson, Lynn Sims. There's so many different names that we could go for this one, but welcome back to another episode. Thanks for joining us again and. Yeah. Welcome back, everyone. Did you forget what we were doing today? Just it took. Me took me a hot minute. Although we literally just recorded the first part of this episode, so, you know, giving away our trade secrets. Can't let your brain fall out just yet? No, I've got a little bit left in me, Yeah.

0:44 Then I think we might need to go and get some. Lungs. Oh yeah, you could. Have you ever had it? Oh, we're so out of practice with all of this. Right, we've got this. I I reckon we can. Manage. Oh, now that's now that that's been that seed's been planted. We're good. I'm I'm right. I'm here. We're gonna get this done and get to lunch. Yay, how are you? I I think we were talking in the last episode about how it's been your birthday this week, but how's everything else been going? Not too bad, not too bad, I feel like.

1:12 The weather has seriously changed. We were just saying then these outdoor sports over winter are horrific. Why, Why do we do outdoor sports in winter? Like I feel like it's an Australian thing of like, you know, that football, it's a winter sport, soccer's a winter sport. Like they're all outdoors. Like, why are we not putting out our winter, you know, our cold sports, outdoor sports in summer when it's nice to be outside? Yeah, I don't know, because it's the kids. Bloody love running around in the rain and the mud.

1:42 I'm dreading tonight, like sit standing around at footy training, Yeah, it's gonna be so cold. It'll be so cold. At least it's not wet. It's not gonna be raining tonight, but we will have weeks where we'll be standing in the absolute pouring rain. Oh, yeah. While it's while they're training. Yeah. Or while they're playing. Oh. The kids love it like they love getting in the mud, like, but I don't. Oh no, I'll just put that out there. Oh no, no, I'm not here for that. No, no thanks. It's just freezing.

2:11 It's horrible. Oh, it's. Awful. Yeah, on the on the note of it being cold and it's particularly being cold overnight the last few nights especially. Tell me this, are you one of those psychopaths that sleeps in socks? Maybe. Are you really? OK, my feet control my body temperature entirely, right? If my feet are hot, I am hot. If my feet are cold, I am cold. OK. So in summer there is nothing I hate more than socks on in bed. I am with you on it in summer. But when I get to this cold weather and winter, I have to have nice socks warming my feet up.

2:53 The thought of it, yeah, the thought of it makes me want to vomit. And The thing is in summer, I'm I'm with you, I am with you. But when we get these cold, wet, cold weather, I just, I have to my feet, literally if my feet aren't warm, I am not warm, OK. Yeah, I mean, I don't. Don't get me wrong, I don't like having cold feet. Yeah, but I cannot, I just, I cannot go to bed with. Socks. I think what my issue is in winter is I'm one of those people who sticks my feet out of the donor. Same. And I can't stick my feet out of the donor and keep them warm unless I've got socks on.

3:28 Them but that don't you regulate your body temperature by putting your foot out a little bit so this. Is no, it's actually like, I know this is the thing. I stick my feet out not for regulating my temperature because of just habit of having to stick my feet out I think. OK interesting. I I can't also wear long pants to bed. Oh, yeah, I know. I wear long pants to bed. Yeah. OK, I should refer them to the shorts. Yeah. It's really hard to find pajamas that are shorts with a long sleeve top. That is because that's wrong you.

3:54 Just don't in. The winter tops with shorts that you can find sets. I've got a really nice bond set that's like that in the winter. I I do like a long sleeved. Because your arms are out. Out. Yeah, yeah. But then the way I regulate my temperature is by sticking my foot out, and the longer my leg goes out, obviously the cooler I need to get. The calculations like it's it's very scientist. I'll get Mace onto the the mathematical equation of how much leg it takes to cook. Could he could you please? I reckon he.

4:26 Takes my ideal bedroom temperature. I actually don't know what that is. Yeah. What would be my ideal bedroom temperature where I can leave my legs in the bed all night but not actually get? Hot. Yeah, Yeah. Thanks, Mace. I'll get him, get him onto it. He'll he'll love the problem solving. But. Also then in the winter like a blanket on top of the do not serious. Oh, Nah, 'cause that just irritates because it never goes where you want it to go, and I would just lose my mind over it. Yeah, no, no. Hey, Dina.

4:52 Yeah, yeah, OK. And I've gotta have something on me, no matter how hot it is. Oh, I'm a little bit like that. I don't like, like even on a really hot knife, you need a sheet. Well, it's just like, you're so exposed. I don't know. Yeah. Like hiding under something. Yeah. I do. I like to pull something up and over me. Yeah and yeah. Yeah, even if you've got the air conditioned air conditioning blasting a little bit cooler just so that you. Can have your sheet on 100%, yeah. Agreed. I agree with that.

5:17 I'll spend the fortune on the air conditioner being on just to be able to do that. Worth it. Worth it. But yeah, the thought of these, Oh my God, these cold days out in the oh, I hate feeling cold. I hate it in the core. It's like, oh, and I was outside at work yesterday and I'm like, it's just happened. Like it's that crispness in the middle of the day where you go, oh, because when I was a couple of weeks ago, I think we're standing at footy training. We were like, oh, here it comes. Here's the that evening crisp, but during the day crisp.

5:50 Oh God. You know, that's a change in the season, although this weekend is gonna be really nice. It's gonna be 23 and sunny both days. Well, I'll take that, yeah. Yeah, we've got Mother's Day coming up this weekend. Yeah, so that's nice. Oh well, Mother's Day. You mean footy? Yeah, footy. Oh my God, two games of footy each. Yeah. And you know, family commitments, but that's, that's what it's all about. Being mums, that's what you do. Yeah, I've gotta do the gotta do the dog poop pick up for 40 this week on Sweeping Judy Judies.

6:19 Oh, it is so funny. So our club Rost, if you're at home, you get rosted on, potentially get rosted on to do the it's called a ground sweep, but it's literally just picking up dog shit that's on the Oval, which I mean, it's a well appreciated by everyone. Absolutely. So who are these evil people who are not picking up their dog? Total, total Dick heads. On the kids footy Oval. Yuck. Yeah, it's just crazy. Yuck, yuck, yuck, yuck. We don't generally have to do that because I volunteer every week in a different capacity.

6:47 Anything else when you volunteer? Peter's happy to do like umpire, what do you call it, Golden umpiring or the umpire escort or things like that? He's doesn't mind doing that. Yeah. Or time keeper or whatever. Yeah, we tend to not have to worry too much about the other jobs. You're welcome, Peter. Oh. Totally. I mean, I'm, I'm grateful 'cause there's a couple that we know that have volunteered permanently to the ground sweep for our team. So they're on every week, but they're still like, they're like the two of them are happy to do it together, like husband and wife.

7:15 And so we don't actually need anyone else doing it. But I've been, I've been rostered on to do it 'cause they're still getting a second person on the roster. But I'm like, so they keep telling me, oh, don't worry about it. You have to do it. Like, we'll do it. I'm like, oh, but I feel bad. Like if I don't at least show my face, show up. I'll come, I'll come 10. Minutes. They might try and make me do something else, oh I don't know, canteen duty or something. Oh, I I didn't mind doing the canteen.

7:38 Yeah, I haven't done canteen yet. Actually, I haven't. No, I haven't given that job yet. So yeah, I'm, I'm, I don't mind helping out. But fine but. Picking up dog shit. Oh. Yeah. It's already hard enough on Mother's Day to get there well. This is so this one of our, one of my friends, Erin, she's got a couple of kids in Ollie's team and the team manager put out a thing during the week saying, hey, we actually just don't have anyone rostered to canteen for first and second-half this week. Yeah, any volunteers And I see Heron at BFT every morning.

8:08 She's like one of the two of the dads need to volunteer for that on Mother's Day. There shouldn't be mums there. Shouldn't be mums doing it? No, I'm like, why? Is it always the mums who do the canteen and the dads that do the bands? Go on hiring. Or whatever. Yeah, Come on, guys. I think fingers are beyond the gender stereotypes, peeps. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think on Mother's Day particularly, it should be the dads stepping up. Yeah, for sure. But nobody's volunteered yet, so. Are you serious?

8:35 Just no one, none of the dads have come into the group chat and gone. Yeah, yeah. Like, like. Not not. So I'm just gonna wait for that to pan itself. Out tells me. I thought we've moved past this. Yeah, no, no, no. Anyway, I've got a few shout outs for today. Yes. So we've got Katrina Jenner and Nick who have been commenting, I think they were Instagram. I think Instagram. And I'd also like to shout out to an ex work colleague of mine, actually her name is Dai, and I went away with her a few weeks ago on that cruise.

9:07 And she was just, she knew so much about our episodes. Like, I can tell she was super into it and loved listening. So thank you, Dai, and thank you, Nick and Katrina. Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome. I love that. Yeah. Do you find that people are coming up to you and saying things like people in your real life and like, I didn't know you listened? Definitely, definitely. Yeah. I've got a particular work colleague that I actually didn't realise. I knew. She knew we were doing the podcast and that's something.

9:34 But she's actually really into this and shout her out. Yeah. So Mel, she knows she'll be listening, I'm sure. And I'm. And she came to me going, I didn't even know you're on socials and I've found you on there. And I see her name pop up, you know, with likes and stuff on things now. And I'm like, no, Oh yeah, she's here and she knows she's into it. She's she doesn't really talk about it much at work, but I can sense that she's got some interest and got some things to say. It's. Mel. We'll chat, Mel, we'll chat.

9:58 Just corner Meg in her office one day and. As they all do, she'll have. No, no end of things to talk to you about. Try and separate the two. But now I'm happy to chat. Love it. Yeah, yeah. Now, we talked about this in the last episode, but our 50th episode is coming up very, very quickly. Given this is given that this is episode 46, so we are putting it out there to our listeners to give us suggestions of what you would like us to cover for our 50th episode. We want it to be a bit of a milestone.

10:29 Yeah, for us, we think like, you know, 50 episodes, that's incredible. It's huge. We're really proud of it and we want to sort of mark the occasion with something special that everyone wants to hear and have us research and listen to. So we're not sure whether we want to go down like something a little bit lighter like a celebrity type case or we're totally, 100% open to everyone's suggestions. Yeah, send them on through your and DM us through Instagram. You can contact us through Spotify, through the platform there or Facebook.

10:58 Yeah, let us know. There's so many places to reach out or even just shoot us an e-mail. Yeah, to [email protected]. Please do. Yeah, we're here for it. Oh. Yeah, yeah. Love it. No, love loving getting all the messages and it's and it's, it is, it's growing and I'm I am struggling a little bit to keep up with times, but I get there eventually. If I haven't responded, just give me some time. We get there, yeah, sometimes my days get busy during work and I see them peeing through and I want to do it, but I've obviously got other things I have to do the.

11:27 Responsibilities. It's all a bit. Much so sometimes I might leave you on red, so I'm sorry I might have time to read it but not reply. Yep. Doing our best to keep. Up. Oh yeah, Yep, Juggling at all. But it's all good. We get there. That's it, That's it. Thank you to everybody. Absolutely. All right, shall we delve into where we're at? So if you haven't listened to last week's episode, please go back and do so because it gives all of the background. And we're kind of at the point now where we've got an investigation starting for Lynn.

11:57 Well and truly after June, she has gone missing. So yeah, go back, listen to the to the first episode if you haven't. Yeah, if you don't know this case and you really need that back story, otherwise this is none of this is probably gonna make sense. No, that's. Exactly right. That's it. So where are we starting for this one? I think well, there was a little bit of information we did forget to mention that. I just really wanna throw in there today that we talked discussed how so obviously Chris Dawson, his wife Lynn is missing and has been he's divorced her and married this young JCI believe she was 18 when they got married.

12:32 She turned 18. So it was legal. But anyway. Morally questionable. Ethically questionable. And as we, yeah, as we discussed, he moved her in very quickly into the family home and it moved very quickly in terms of them then getting married like a couple within a couple of years of her disappearance, they were married. But one thing we didn't mention was the fact that when they did marry, the wedding rings that they used were Lin's. They had resized them and engagement and wedding. Now the thing, the fact of the matter is that he had those in his possession even says something to me because I know the the marriage was on the rocks, but Lynn was very much trying to keep that marriage together.

13:09 Would you not think that if she disappeared that she would not have been wearing them? Yes, and her friends say that. And she wasn't one of these people. You know how there are people who take their rings on and off? Like they might take their rings off to wash the dishes or something? I've never been that person. And some people, like, honestly, like, they have jobs or whatever, for whatever reason that they don't wear their rings. Yeah, but Lynn was not that person. Nope. You know, she wore her rings all of the time, so even the fact that he had her rings.

13:36 Yeah. Possession is suspect, yeah. And then come on, resize them and give them to you a little. It's disgusting. Oh so disrespectful, even disrespectful to JC as well as I mean, the fact of the matter is, you know, your second marriage, you know, all that sort of stuff. You know, in, in the context of just literally like, yes, your wife has disappeared and you're remarrying or something. Yep, you're entitled to remarry and entitled to move on in your life and but you would not use your ex wife's rings to marry that person.

14:04 I went to uni with a girl who was proposed to with a ring that her fiance had bought a previous girlfriend and proposed to her with and he and she said no a. 100%. And I was like no no no, as in my friend at uni. Said yes. Oh, she said. Yes. She then later found out it was the same ring that he'd proposed to another woman with. I would have said no, you need to go and get new rings. Oh my God, yes, oh God. And also, girls, if you get proposed to take the ring, they can't take it back. Do something with it.

14:41 Mine is sitting there. I need to do something with it because The thing is like I'm not that you want to say this one jinxed, but like you know, they're they're being part of a marriage and had their lives to me like it's. Imagine like you like you would think an engagement rings a very personal thing, the fact that it's been reused. At least melt it down and reset the diamonds whereas they just resized them. Sure. Even that even the big question. Even that is true. Yeah, you. Think for their daughters, that's a legacy.

15:18 Yeah, Item, Yeah, which she. Now will never. Have no especially in that situation where mum disappeared. There was something happened to mum not as in like oh you guys had massive Blues and you just separated like you know and that there's I'll toward to each other. Well there's award. But like you know well to the NTH degree like like where it's got real real bad. But yeah, in their in their minds of if Chris Dawson wants to stay this, you know, course of, you know, oh, she just walked out and like, and this maybe says something happened to her that we don't know about.

15:48 Like, you know, that that's sad for the girls. They should have something to remember her by. And no, he resized them and gave them to his new, much younger wife because she was. Also didn't she wouldn't have known any better like she wouldn't have she probably felt in fact I know she would have felt like she couldn't say I'm not using Lynns rings. Like that, no, she was not in a position to be able to have any opinion. So he's just dictated that yet again and controlled that situation. Yeah, for what it was, yeah.

16:20 I really wanted to get that out there. Of what? Happened there. That's an important point. I think that shows a lot about. Who? Relationship, who he was, the situation at the time and how JC just she had no choice but to go along for the ride. Yeah, yeah. So. We left off I think at about 1990 where they had divorced and we're at a point of where they've been an inquest of into the investigation into the disappearance of Lynn, which nothing much really came of that, No. So we're basically now in yeah, 1990s where we've got Lynn still missing.

16:55 No, no real investigation, full investigation that has occurred. Yeah, that's exactly right. Nothing, Nothing has been really done, No. And it was decades before things were actually really started to be investigated properly. Yes. So I think contextually we can give a little bit around this as well. So we spoke about this obviously in the first episode and this is something that everyone thinks of when they think of Lynette Dawson and that is The Teacher's Pet podcast. So in the podcast that came out in 2018, things had started happening in the lead up to that.

17:35 So I think Headley Thomas, the lead investigative journalist who produced The Teacher's Pet through his role at The Australian newspaper, he basically what he instigated a lot of things even prior to the podcast being released. So him looking into Lynette's disappearance, interviewing people who knew her, it really made people then go, yeah, you're right. This has actually been playing on my mind for decades now and I do need to do something about it. So it actually sparked a reinvestigation of well, you know what, it actually sparked an investigation of the case.

18:15 Yeah. So the teacher's pet came out and in 2018 and it very strongly suggested that Chris Dawson was was responsible for the murder of of Lynette Dawson. But obviously they didn't have a lot of proof at the time. And the NSW Police, you know, it was incumbent upon them then to really investigate this properly and, and put in a proper coronial inquest and see where, where all of that information actually led and what they were going to do about it. So it's, it was an. It was an interesting time, I suppose.

18:53 Yeah, I guess coming on to this case, like obviously as we're saying, the police had not done a lot until there was a particular person that came into this case was was handed to Damian Loon, who we've probably mentioned in other cases. I feel like probably. Yeah, he's really well known and he he was handed this as a cold case. And I've actually heard him speak about this a number of different podcasts and he talked about the fact that this this case intrigued him massively. He didn't have a really a budget on looking into it.

19:26 It was just basically one of his cold cases he was handed, but he didn't stay in that particular area for very long in terms of what that that was a role he was he was in when he was then moved to a different area of the police. He asked, but can I stay on this one? It really it was it was a bugbear for him that this hadn't been, you know, investigated. Yeah, it was. Handed to him to Detective Damian Loon in 1998. There had been, According to him at the time, there had been basically no records.

19:59 There was like. One piece of paper in the box, because Hedley Thomas was the same when he sort of walked into this. It was not a lot because he actually Hedley Thomas actually looked at this well before 2018. Well, so it was actually he looked at it in the 90s and was like, this is an interest. I know of this case because he actually went to Cromer High. Yeah. So he was he. Knew of this area yeah. And he knew of this, the vibe of the the whole place, yeah, that sort of thing. So when he. First entered into this and gone what what's been investigated this the two of Damian loom and him had already got to know each other a little bit and they he was like there's not much to like in this.

20:34 There's been no people, you know, interviewed etcetera. And he's the one piece of paper in the box, which was, you know, some very vague information around who was involved in JC and who she was and all those sorts of things, but but not enough to go. There's a pia. So at the time, Hayley Thomas was like, oh, I'm intrigued because there is definitely more to this. And there was nothing to say. There was more, but no further investigation. So it wasn't until he then later on came back to it. He was like, it was always in the back of his head.

21:03 I wanna do more on this. But I think he got caught into, I think life, you know, took on for him, young kids. That was time. Yeah. Yeah. So he didn't. It wasn't time for him to take this on and Damian Loon was a bit the the same in that he was, as I say, he wasn't actually then even in the role of cold cases, he was doing other work within the the police force. But this stayed his case. And every now and then if he'd get a moment, he'd do a bit on it or something had come to him. You know, someone had bring something to him and say this has come up.

21:28 That's to do with that case. And he started to gather things. So it was all very slow paced in the background it. Was so slow paced that nothing really happened until 1999. Yeah, so 19992000. Yes, he was. I believe Damian was working on this in his spare time. Now, what police officer or detective has spare time? Probably not many of them. So it did take a long time, but he had a gut feeling about it. Yeah, so much so. So they ended up conducting a small excavation at the Bayview house. So they lived, you know, the house was in Bayview.

22:02 We talked about the house in the previous episode. They built it. It was down the road from Paul's, sorry, Chris''s twin brother Paul. They did a small excavation at the time, focusing on the pool and surrounds. This was based on information that had been given to them by the neighbor. Again, we spoke about her in the last episode because. Paul had had some works on it. Had some works done and for not really, they didn't really know what was happening. They had some paving replaced and nobody really, like, knew why and what was going on.

22:32 Yeah. And they used like a ground penetrating radar at the time. And they could see that there'd been a disturbance in soil in that area. So that was enough to get a subpoena to be able to, to, to actually perform an excavation. Yeah. At this time, they found a pink cardigan and everyone got really, really excited because pink was Lin's favorite colour. In fact, at all of the court cases that you can see with Lynn's family, they all wear pink ribbons to, you know, in remembrance of her. So everyone got really, really excited about this pink cardigan and unfortunately it went for forensic testing, it came back and nothing could be taken from it.

23:12 So they actually. Was found to have like, like ribs in it Like oh, it was potentially like. But it was not completely ripped. Yeah, it was completely ripped. But there was talk that that could have been, they could sort of say that it would had been you like a knife had been used and things like maybe. Yeah, I'm, I'm not sure of that. Yeah, it's, it's 100%. It was ripped, at least ripped in half, if not yet. I mean, quite possibly, but forensically they couldn't get anything of it. They don't even know if it was Lin's at the end of the day.

23:38 If that was tested again in like between not 2020 to 25, do you think they'd be potentially more able to be found of it or I don't? Know because it was buried and it was wet like it was there was a lot of moisture it was around a pool there was scary there was a lot there I I don't know but thankfully we. Don't know. No, no. So yeah, there was that obviously sparked more interest this cardigan. It really gave the case and a bit of a push, even though the actual cardigan ended up not really going anywhere.

24:11 No, it would have been awesome even if they could just find even a picture of Lynn wearing that cardigan, to be honest. But and and I. Think no one had ever seen a inner cardigan? Like, yeah, whatever. In February of 2001, the first of two perennial inquests took place and this was initiated by the NSW Police. But you know, it was still the, the results of the NSW Police at the time was still inconclusive. They, it's not like they were like, Yep, we've got hard evidence to say this is what's happened.

24:43 Deputy State Coroner Jan Stevenson determined that Lynn was most likely murdered by a known person and the DPP, the director of public prosecutions at the time, didn't lay any charges because they said there was insufficient evidence and. Yeah, See, that really was a huge bugbear for Damian Loan because so he went to them and because typically he said in these sorts of incidents where they would say that he could approach them and say what's missing, what do I need to get? What do I need to do to make this go over the line to say that you will.

25:12 They said to him, we can't, we can't do that. We can't tell you. Why? Yeah, To this day, he doesn't know. They were very secretive. Basically, it's confidential. We can't, we can't speak to that. Wow In February of 2003, a second coronial inquest began with deputy State coroner Carl Milovanovic recommending that the DPP lay charges for murder by a known person. So by this stage there was obviously enough to have another coronial inquest take place. There'd been enough investigations in this time.

25:45 So we've, you know, we've had enough of a development. Again, the DPP refused to lay any charges, again stating that there was insufficient evidence to support a criminal charge against any person. So the fact that in the second coronial inquest they've said it is now by person. Known. Is a big deal the police then? So Damian Loon and his team then, I think they knew what they were focusing on all along, but in keeping an open mind as well, they were investigating all possibilities. 12 years this went on, yeah, 12 years.

26:26 And it wasn't until 2015 where the NSW Police Force formed an on an unsolved homicide unit. But that was a bit of a tongue for stuff which was led by Detective Damian Poole and he actually rate formally reopened the investigation into Lynn's disappearance. So over the next three years, the incident was under investigation by this new unsolved homicide unsolved homicide squad. And they they put together a brief of evidence that they then wanted the DPP to review. And because they thought at that time they had enough circumstantial evidence to at least bring a trial, bring it to trial and bring a charge.

27:14 Whoops, sorry. So charges. Trial bring a charge against Chris. Yeah. But again, it LED nowhere. Yeah. In September of 2018. So going back in 2000, in the year 2000, they did that first excavation of just around the pool. Yeah, in 2018. So 18 years later, the Dawson's former Bayview property was mapped, searched and excavated and no further evidence was uncovered. That search was done like the the teacher's pet had been launched and it was so Headley was already doing a massive amount of research himself alongside what was going on with the police that obviously it sparked such huge community interest that there was bigger push to do more.

28:02 So obviously then, yeah. And other excavations occurred. It's disappointing nothing was found, but I don't know. I'm not not, I'm not surprised either because to me so much time has gone on. And he'd moved in that house. And they'd moved from that what year they moved they. Must have moved it was it was after 2000. Was it? I thought it was even earlier than that I. Don't. I'm pretty sure when the. Oh actually no, I think I feel right. Sorry. Even when the first excavation took place, they didn't.

28:27 Know, no, I feel like they did move to like Queensland as he originally planned with her. I feel like they did move, which, you know, yeah. I mean, I think I think he's not an idiot. Like I really honestly think that he whatever did with her when she died and potentially that was somewhere near the pool, but I think before they moved or whatever, I reckon him and his brother would have moved the body. Oh, 100%, yeah. So the Teachers Pet podcast actually started in the May of that year. So the first episode was released in the May, and it wasn't until the September that that excavation took place.

28:59 And you're absolutely right. It was due to public outcry because people, you know, even when it was first launched, it was so wildly popular, the podcast and people really got onto it. And when you launch a podcast like that, you get your armchair detectives. There were people independently investigating this for themselves and coming up with their own theories and. But also more people were going, hey, I actually remember this and I've got information to share too. And this is where, like, the neighbor comes into play.

29:29 You know, she's the one who was like, oh, yeah, well, these are the things that I remember. Yes. You know, that says a lot. But this was, I mean, how many years? Almost 40 years after the fact? Yeah. Was it 30 something years? Like, it's absolutely ridiculous. Crazy Oh. You're right, though. It meant more and more witnesses came forward to the police and also to Headley. Like, he interviewed a lot of people who hadn't gone to the police yet. To his credit, he handed over everything when the investigations were taking place.

30:01 All of his raw tapes, unedited everything. Yeah, all of his information. Apparently it was like boxes and boxes and boxes. A lot more than that one piece of paper that was there when he first looked into it. That's. Exactly right, so hats off to him. Absolutely. He might this none of this ever would have come to the floor. So in December of was it December? Yes, December 5/2. 1018 Chris Dawson was arrested with attempted murder charges and no sorry with a murder charge and at that time was he charged for the carnal knowledge.

30:39 No, that came later. Okay, yeah. So at this stage he's just been charged with Lynns murder, yes Yeah. He submitted 2 bail applications. The first was rejected, the second was granted with a surety of one and a half million Australian dollars. Committal proceedings then followed in Feb of 2020. Like right before the pandemic, Yeah. I think for us, our world shutdown in March of that year was yeah. So, you know, he just made it, just made it through. Just made it. He was committed to stand trial in that committal proceeding because he pled not guilty to the charge of Lynn's murder.

31:18 So at that time they set a trial date for much later in that year, not knowing what was coming. Yeah. I mean, you get it kind of there because there's been quite a gap between then and the trial actually occurring. But I mean, this is the sort of trial you couldn't have held it during lockdown. No, it wasn't 1. You could just do online. Like to me, like, that was definitely something that had to be done in court. In person, it was too. Big it was, too. Important. Way too important. There were so many witnesses that needed to be called and I think because the case was still circumstantial.

31:50 Yeah, it was, it was. I mean, it's all circumstantial evidence that they have because they don't have a body. That's right. Yeah, I think, I think that's that did a service to Lynn's case. The fact that it was held in person, because you could see people's emotions, you could see the reaction of all of the witnesses and everything that kind of goes along with that. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah. You needed to hear directly from people and see them in the court. To me, like, yeah, yeah. Definitely Chris's defence.

32:21 So his brother Peter Dawson was a lawyer? Oh my God. I really am intrigued by that. I don't know. I just don't think that it's ethical. Oh, yeah. I don't think it's ethical that your brother represents you. I know that there was a barrister who was actually there on the day in the court proceedings who, you know, spoke and was ahead of it, but obviously he's sitting next to that person and, you know, directing etcetera. So, but I still just don't know that it's ethical that your brother is your legal representative.

32:50 But at the same time, what the hell? How can the circumstantial evidence is huge on this Oh. Absolutely. As a family, I know you stand by and this is where I kind of got, I don't think it should be a brother being illegal representative because OK, there's you're wanting to stand by your brother and you know, and be like supportive in this situation, whether they've murdered someone or not. You, you know, as family, you rally, but you rally at the same time as also being you can love your brother and also know that he's done wrong.

33:19 And I think that that would be an awful position to be in. But this family, this family would never like that. No. They always condoned his shit behaviour. Yeah, they knew that he was having an affair with a teenager, yes. And he helped him hide it. They helped him commit to me knowledge like. His brother has, I mean, whether you know, this brother in particular, I don't know whether he was participating in those activities or what have you, but probably, but there's not enough, there's not evidence of that.

33:48 But like you're too close and because so you have knowledge of of him and what went on back then. I mean, he legit came to him and said, well, how do I have my 16 year old child, you know, like bride that I wanna be with and not lose my money linked up with, with Lynn? I mean, to then have him as your legal counsel. I just don't think that that's right. No, although I I think about that from the context of if it was my brother and I was a lawyer and I felt like I had the ability I'd. I would, no, I would still be like, I will give you, I'll tell you who to go to and who I trust to do it for you, but I'd have to sit.

34:28 Out. Help yourself. I don't know. I don't know. But then. But then I think you're right in that if I'd known that a sibling of mine had done something wrong, you couldn't then ethically represent them because you know they've done something. This is it. You're you're actually lying in court. Yeah. Because. So you're in. Yeah. You're in contempt and you're perjuring. Yeah. Because he knows. He knows, especially the next trial, he knows that that he knows what went on there. Oh, so it's. I just think I find it really.

35:01 Yeah. Wrong. Prior to this first trial, though, Chris's representation, his barrister put it to the court that the podcast eroded his fundamental right to the presumption of presumption of innocent and innocence and his right to stay silent. Yeah. And so that there was actually court proceedings in relation to the teachers podcast, what that meant for Chris in terms of getting a fair trial. Yeah. And how the court were were going to handle that. So to Headley's credit, they removed all podcasts from his podcast from broadcast at that time.

35:41 In Australia, In Australia. So, yeah, internationally you could still listen this to it entirely. Yeah, which I mean, yeah, you didn't need to pull it from there because they weren't going to be jurors in this trial, whereas someone in Australia is. I fully get that. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And yeah, would that they. So Headley also turned over, as I said, all of his research and everything that went with it, which took. He then became. Detectives. A long time to go through, but yeah. He became a witness then that's right in the trial, which I would have been really frustrating for him like in the in the sense of he's done all this hard work.

36:15 He is, you know, as there was no invested in getting Chris Dawson on this 100 like as anyone really as equally I would say to as to a family at that point. He was with them, you know, he was on their team. Oh. He wore the pink ribbons. Yeah, absolutely. But he couldn't then be, he couldn't hear other people's testimony, all those sorts of things. He couldn't actually see the court hearing as it would play out. Yeah, because he was a witness. You then have to be isolated between because you can't hear someone else's testimony and then sit, then have and do yours because it might be influenced by it.

36:46 So he was completely removed until his testimony. He had been completely done before. He could then watch any part of the trial and be a part of it. So that would have been really hard for him. But at the same time, he achieved what he went and set out to do at the same time, so. Yeah, he talks about that in the podcast about his experience being in the witness box. And it's not the first, it's not the last time that that happened with his further investigations like he's done many. Other cases, yeah.

37:15 Podcast cases after. He was in the trial box for like 2 days I think. Yeah, yeah. And he talks about how exhausting it is and, you know, it's hard to keep in line all of the things, you know, he said he did thousands of hours of research and to try and report things that were posed to him. Yeah. Was really drain. Well, it's. Draining because you want to make sure you get what you want to said, but you've got to rely on other people's questions to do that. So you can't jump ahead and like say things without it being a question to you.

37:45 But like at the same time, like the courts don't play out how you think they do in movies and stuff Being in the court, there's lots of pauses, lots of like lawyers don't always succinctly ask their questions and they'll rummage through papers and like there's lots of pauses and lots of drain dragged out bits. Wait as a witness, he'd be sitting there going, what's going to be the next question? What am I going to do? And just wait for the lawyer to come and bring that question to you, whether that's both the prosecution and the defence.

38:14 So it's a long, it'll be a long bloody day sitting there of questions and then being and then being asked questions within like going, Nope, restrict that from the record. We can't ask that. And like gotta go back again and try again and try and get it out of them another way. It would be exhausting. Yeah, absolutely exhausting. For all of the witnesses, yeah, Lynn's you know Members of Lynn's family testified they submitted. So the prosecution submitted Helenae diary as part of the evidence because so Helena was Lynns mum.

38:42 What did she pass away? Do you remember? It was well before all. This, it was well before all, yeah, But she kept an incredibly detailed diary. She wrote verbatim certain conversations that she'd had and all of that. Well done to her to do that. I mean, that was just her. Yeah, that's it's not even. She didn't even do it because of suspicion. No, no, no. Anything that's in like diary and journaling like that was a bigger thing I think than it is today. I'd love to go back. I remember when I was a kid, I used to say and all, yeah, I'd love to go back and read.

39:14 Them No, I don't think I've got. I would cringe something shocking. I think I know where I think I've got all mine, actually. It'd be so interesting to go back and read them. It'd be gross.

39:26 Oh. Jesus, Mum's just been horrible to me all day. My brother's shit. My brother's awful. Oh God, sounds like today.

39:38 Yeah, actually, What? Sorry. What? What's changed? Yeah, yeah, a lot. Not a lot. Just that much. I don't like not hate my mum anymore. I know I appreciate her if you're. A teenagehood you're like, Oh yeah. Oh crap, I was awful. God, it's a right of happy. Absolutely. In September of 2020, Supreme Court Justice Fullerton rejected Dawson's application for a permanent stain proceedings, which he'd said based on the podcast and the fact that he was never going to get a fair trial. Yeah, that was that was rejected.

40:11 He then the judge actually did grant him a temporary state of proceedings for nine months to relieve the concerns of fairness sparked by the podcast. So I think this was nine months where the podcast wasn't going to be available in Australia. Yeah, they could, you know, find enough, potentially find enough jurors who hadn't engaged in the content etcetera, etcetera. He appealed that, of course, because that's just what the proceeds they do. Yeah, but the trial was rescheduled then to commit. So he appealed like to the High Court.

40:40 Like, yeah, you kept going. All of the appeal processes, they all said no, fuck off, you've actually got to face this. Yeah. So the trial was then rescheduled to commence on the 9th of May in 2022. Yeah. So he made in just before that he actually made an application for his trial to be heard by a judge only. So a judge alone trial. Which I think was, I mean, I mean, I think it was a good move, to be honest, in that respect. I do agree that due to the podcast, potentially he would have struggled to find a jury that we're going to be impartial entirely.

41:17 So I think that that was, you know, but that's an option available to anybody to do that. So yeah. In Australia, though, when an indictable criminal offence proceeds to trial, evidence is generally presented to a judge and 12 jurors you know randomly selected from the. Very rare that we have a judge only. Trial here in Australia, I think in Australia it's a very, very yeah. But I completely and in fact, I think this is like someone of the cases that goes to teachings for students like law students because it is not that common here.

41:47 Yeah. And for reasons that, you know, for the first time ever, a podcast had it actually caused that to happen. Yeah. And I don't think it'll be the last. I really don't and. Then you've got you think about all of the media coverage for many cases and what influenced this case in case a precedent has would give to future cases in terms of any media coverage. It's it's really fascinating. Yeah. Dawson's trial was heard by Justice Ian Harrison, who? Oh my God, you can listen to his full verdict. It's like friggin 40 pages.

42:21 Yeah, it's really like hours. He took hours to read it until it's caught. Yeah. Yeah, it's a lot. He's a lovely man, a really kind, empathetic, very fair, very just his. His finding had to be. Like watertight? Absolutely. Otherwise he was going to be criticized endlessly of like being himself, being influenced by the podcast. So I think even though he did stayed at the start, he had never listened to the podcast. He didn't even know what podcasts were. Loving.

43:00 Yeah. So, yeah, on the 31st of August 2022, he pronounced that the verdict was that Dawson was guilty of murdering his wife Lynette on or soon after the 8th of January in 1982. Yeah. Now, is it worth having a chat about what we think actually happened? Because it hasn't really. I mean, there's theories everywhere. Yeah, because there's no actual hard evidence there. He hasn't. We don't really know what actually happened, But I have a theory about what. Happened. Do you? I do, I do. I'd love to hear yours.

43:37 OK, yeah. So I think when Chris made Lynn that nice drink that night, he has laced something in there that has caused her to pass out or even potentially that could have killed her. I don't know. He's then perpetrated a murder against her. He's hidden her body overnight and then gone to the pool the next morning with the girls. Whether or not that night he's done anything, I don't think so. I think Lynn's body stayed at the house or somewhere near the house that the on the the night before. I think he this and this is awful in that where was JC at this point?

44:14 Where is she living at that point? We don't know she. Wasn't at that. No, she wasn't at the house. So I, I mean, because he, he, his brother gives an alibi of him being at his place. I honestly think whatever's happened with Lynn has happened and he's I've like he's left those two young girls asleep. See, I reckon. And he's gone to his night, you reckon? Yeah, because Helena took the 2 girls home from the pool and they stayed that night with her at Chris's insistence. Yeah. So I think he's hidden.

44:40 You know, I don't think he's moved the body that night, I think, but I think he's gone, he's done that, gone running to his brother, right? And I reckon he was at Paul's house that night, but Lynn was not alive back at her place. I think she's, he's confessed to Paul what he's done, Right. And then that's where the two of them have come up with this plan. We'll sort this out. Just leave it where like she's right where she is right now. You know, like tomorrow we're going to plant this seed with people and that she's going to disappear, like, you know, and then we'll sort it out from there.

45:08 I reckon that's sort of that part of the evening played out. And then they've moved her body the next day, I think. Yeah, that next night when the girls went there and stuff, Paul and him have then done whatever. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I mean, this is just what we think. Yeah, never been necessarily. Proven. I really think what what has happened is that he has he in his mind has realized that JC is pulling away. He's got to bring her in more to be able to keep her. So he needs to get Lynn out. And I think that, yeah, he's given her.

45:37 He's like in that evening, he's like, what am I gonna like it's built up to some sort of like he's had the marriage counseling session and like, this is I'm not fucking doing this. Like, you know, I need to get her out of here and well. You know what, the counselor probably saw something in him that he didn't like being reflected back at him. You know, so he was like, I'm not fucking doing that again. I'm not, I'm not being told that I've done something wrong. I'm not taking accountability here.

46:00 But I shouldn't hit my wife and I shouldn't be, you know, off fucking a 16 year. Old. Yeah, you know, yeah, it's, I reckon that that counselling session was quite possibly quite surface anyway being a first session. But at this, but even at that, he would have rejected doing any more of that. So I think that it's all escalated for him that day of his frustration of I'm not getting what I want. So do you think he, like it was premeditated at that point? Because the day that, you know, we think she was murdered, they did have that counselling session.

46:30 She I Lynn spoke to her colleagues saying they were holding hands and. Yeah, see, I, I have a theory here. So this is my theory that Lynn, in her mindset, things are moving where she wants them to, right? They're going to have their marriage back on track. He's given her that drink. And I think that Lynn going, I'm going to make sure this marriage stays on track. We're doing so well. I think she's made advances like, you know, let's have some, some special time and like literally cement this fact that we're going going back on track.

47:03 He wants a young flirty thing. I'm I'm had a few drinks. So I'm going to I'm loose here. And I think he has gone Oh fuck no, this wasn't my plan. And then he's and I think that's become a push and shove in it. It's gone from there. That's what that's what I think would have played out in that scenario of her thinking one way of where this is heading and he's entirely actually going the opposite direction that that has then imploded on them and that that. Even escalated that night. Yeah. Yeah. Do you think he'd planned to do it?

47:34 No, I don't think planned as in like. Yeah, that night I'm gonna kill. Her, I'm gonna kill her. I think that it's that it's eventuated to a point of like, fuck, she wants this. She thinks this is this marriage is gonna get fixed and I don't want her attention. And maybe he's got physical with her and that that that physical rejection has. And she's maybe fired back at him of like, how dare you? I thought we were fixing this, you know, like, and with her being a bit intoxicated and all those sorts of things that he's created.

48:02 Yeah. I think it's all just blown up from there. And then he's taken it. That whole next step. Yeah. And it's unfortunately ended up where it did. So it's still intent in terms of, oh, absolutely what he's done. But not premeditated. Yeah. Hours, days prior. Yeah. Yeah. I do think it's certainly not defence or anything like that to be called into it. I don't think, you know. Yeah. Because he's certainly a lot stronger than her, that's for sure. Oh yeah. I mean, she was. She wasn't a big lady. No, but I mean, the girls were young, they wouldn't know what was going on.

48:31 So yeah. And I do, I agree with you that they've he's then put the body somewhere at that point, but nowhere necessarily permanently and gone straight to his brother. Oh, I've just killed her. Fuck, she's dead. Like you know, and he's done that. We'll sort this out. What kind of? Ask good. Culpability. What kind of culpability does the sister-in-law have too? Because. I bet she knows. Everything. I feel like she knows everything, yeah. Because yeah, I just don't see how she couldn't. And how did even if she didn't know, she knew?

49:04 She knew enough. What was going on? She knew enough, she knew intimately enough what was going on between Chris and Joanne because fucking hell, they'd been housing Joanne. See. Where's the fucking sisterhood? Many, but yeah. Where exactly and why are we protecting these toxic men? Mm hmm. No. Because I mean, I dare say that she was in a very similar situational in, I dare say Paul would be physical with her potentially, you know, and and abusive. I don't know. There's nothing out there to say that, but he was absolutely, we know now he was absolute.

49:42 What's come out we now women, but who were young girls at the time, have come out to say that Paul was absolutely having. Multiple. Multiple inappropriate relationships with young girls as well Chris is. Somewhat only redeeming feature in this is that he's stuck with one. Like you know, like there's not evidence of him doing this to multiple girls I guess. Whereas Paul in his scenario, he was like he was jumping from girl to girl. I don't. I honestly don't know what's worse I. Think no, I think.

50:16 What Chris did was. I don't yeah. I don't know if there's a worst. I think I think they're awful. They're just awful. And just the different scenarios like as to how they've gone about their their awfulness. Yeah, but I do I lump Marilyn in there. I do think that whatever she maybe she didn't know all of it. I think she knew enough to not question and not voice things and I reckon not question it. I know that that level of loyalty is actually is is toxic and not right. Yeah. How could you know someone like Lynn from I mean, she would have known her from six, the age of 16.

50:52 They were all around each other from such a young age and know that someone has has done some harm to her and they're not they were. Really good. Friends, they were close in law, they. Lived literally down the road from one another they brought up. I mean, I think Paul and Marilyn's kids were slightly older than than Chris and Lynette, but they they had their families together like she was they were. Close. Your children's auntie, yes, has died at your brother in Yep. Yep, Yep, throughout the 40 years of from when Lynn disappeared and now we know, you know, was murdered up until the the time that the case went to trial, there were 12 witnesses that could that provided evidence in the years prior right had passed away.

51:58 Oh wow. I don't know. It was that many, Yeah. So. Much, Yeah, which is, I mean, it's not surprising in that time frame, four years. Yeah. And among them were, you know. So does that mean any of their like if they've given testimony prior like written or you know, that there's documented evidence, can that still be read into course? Yeah. So some of it was admissible. I mean, obviously they must have, they must have had to be cross. Examined. Can it? That was the problem, yeah. So they had to take it article by article.

52:24 And like, you know, obviously the defence of would argue as to why it was not admissible. It said, yeah, but things like Helena's diary entries, they were allowed in. And yeah, they were part of what built the circumstantial case against Chris. I guess it's up to the police officers then to present that, Is that right? To then present the the evidence that they've got like, even though there's not a person to bring it. Yes, I believe so. So the the prosecutor would. Introduce Damian Loan would have been on the stand giving that evidence potentially, yeah, yeah.

52:55 So it's it's very, sort of very, very interesting. But then also over those 40 years, and we've spoken about this in other cases as well, a lot of evidence, like physical evidence went missing. Yeah, things, I mean, over the time, yes, more and more was put in that box that originally had one piece of paper. But, you know, police stations move and evidence gets lost and statements and, you know, go from being paper based to digital and things don't get scanned properly. So there was stuff like that that happened in this case as well.

53:26 Yeah. And then I guess you think about things that that records that do get lost, bank statements, phone records, because the other thing is, you know, that phone call that supposedly took place at the baths on the day that Lynn went missing, that's never been able to be proven whether a phone call actually. Came in that day or not. Because it wasn't investigated at the time and the records, they only have to stay. I don't know. Say it's seven years. I don't know how long. It is, but it's not 40, you know.

53:54 No, they spoke to the people who were working that day at the bars. And how do you remember 40 years ago, did you receive a phone call and pass the phone on to to Chris? I think there was a young, because there was a young girl, I think it was, it was working there. Who has a recollection of some sort of potentially she's like, maybe I called him and said, hey, come to the phone. Lynn's on the phone. That's what he says happened. And she can't really say yes or no to that. She's like, oh, maybe because she goes, I would have definitely have done that.

54:23 Over the course of the time of working with Chris at the bath, that exact scenario would have occurred. Lynn would have rung him there, you know, every second shift potentially. And she said I have definitely done that. Did I do it on that date? On that day as? If you would remember as if. Maybe unless you. Kept. But even if you kept, you don't know it's. Just yeah. Would you have even written that in a journal on that day to say you did that? Because at that point in time, she wasn't reported missing.

54:52 It wasn't, like until six weeks after the fact that she was reported missing that she could have even potentially have been questioned by a police officer. And even then, six weeks ago, did you answer a call from Lynn again? I don't know. Even when, even when the six, you know, even when he reported it six weeks later, the police didn't do anything. They didn't go and look for witnesses or look to corroborate his story at all. No, no. You know they didn't. They didn't do that at that point even, but even if they had, I think it would have been difficult to remember like.

55:22 Yeah, you better remember who you, you know, in a place like that where you're taking phone calls all day. Yeah, like I'm because especially then there was no mobile phone. So any phone calls that were going to be made to employees were made at that by that, you know, that phone. I'm sure she took a phone call and said to, you know, anyone there, you know, at some point, hey, your wife's on the phone or your your mum's on the phone or, you know, so it's just yeah, it would be impossible to remember that sort of thing.

55:46 But on the phone call situation he said that he had he would spoken to Lynn a number of times over those days of those first initial days of her missing what So she was ringing you but no one else like. That's very convenient. And her mum, yeah, didn't call, like, yeah. So her mum actually said that. It wasn't in a statement or anything I think. I think it was in her journals that she was journals. I think she wrote something there about. It rather. Might have been. He she'd spoken to her, to Lynn's brother Greg about it.

56:14 Yeah, but her mum basically said like, Lynn knew I had the girls because she would have known I would have taken them. And if she's phoned home to Chris and wanted to speak to the girls, he would have said that the. Girls, they're telling me, yeah. So she would have called. Yeah. Like that even, you know, she couldn't believe that. Yeah, she couldn't. It wasn't that she couldn't believe that. I don't know. She. We don't. Want. She didn't want to believe that was Chris. I can't. You know you. Yeah.

56:41 I think you're right. I think she didn't even really conceal. I don't know what she when we're talking, you know, early 80s, we didn't have the knowledge we have now of what's being put together of that, you know, these these sorts of domestic violence murders occur and that you know, it's perpetrated by people within knowledge of, you know, family husbands, you know, those sorts of people are who perpetrate this. I think there was still a mindset of this sort of thing happens by strangers. You know strangers do awful things to us, not people we know, whereas we now know that.

57:13 These sorts of things. 90% of the time it is someone who's known and known intimately to that person. So with the knowledge of that in in our mindset, we would be definitely jumping down that and to the point where, you know, you see the husband on on the TV when someone goes missing, you're like, oh, looking for something because clearly he's suspect number one. Yeah, I think in the 80s he wasn't suspect #1 the husband. Wasn't, I think, I think you're right. And you've got to think about it in that context.

57:41 But it's really hard to think about it, Yeah, from where we're sitting right now. Well, in the second trial, I find this, that one really hard to put a lens on it of 80s compared to us now. Totally, Yeah. In that verdict, Justice Harrison stated I'm just going to read out what he said about the circumstantial evidence. He said the circumstantial evidence in this case, considering as a whole is persuasive and compelling. None of the circumstances considered alone can establish Mr. Dawson's guilt.

58:09 But when regard is had to the combined force, I am left in no doubt. I am satisfied beyond a reasonable doubt that Dawson's murder of Lynette is the only rational inference. He was resolute. In his absolutely finding absolutely no, you know, no, no, no, no, no. He was beyond a reasonable doubt, that's for sure. I mean, the things that he so the the the evidence that they had that they put to court to basically get him to this point was witnesses, witness reports of Dawson committing acts of violence against Lynn, the deterioration of the marriage.

58:50 Yeah, which was reported by Lynn to lots of different people. Yeah. Dawsons affair and infatuation with JC witness accounts of Dawsons violent, aggressive and controlling behavior and the unlikelihood of Lynette disappearing of her own will and leaving her children financial access. Yeah, and all possessions behind. Yeah. She didn't even take a handbag. No wedding rings anything? No. So that's that's all the things that, you know, Justice Harrison, you know, used in order to in order to give the finding that he gave.

59:25 Yes, you want to go to. Well, so the sentencing, did you? Oh, did I say? I think so. So he was sentenced to 24 years in prison with a non parole period of 18 years, which I mean doesn't sound like a lot for killing somebody in some ways. But I think was being factored in that he had his age at the time, I think seventeen, 72574 something. Like that he was over 70, old. Yeah. So I think that was being factored into the sentencing that obviously 24 years, chances are he won't be alive anyway and. Even if he gets out, he's gonna have no.

1:00:00 Yeah, so the the family also then after this with his. So he's got obviously a parole period, you know, I think it's 2041 he'd be eligible for parole. Is this. And so there's actually they have put into law something that was there anyway, which we've discussed in another case that could be used, but now it must be used. Is this no, no parole, nobody, no parole. So basically, unless he is going to come up and go, yeah, this is where Lynn's body is, this is what happened, he cannot be considered for parole in 18 years anyway.

1:00:37 So that additional six years that's being added, it will be seen because he's not, he's not talking. So yeah, we're looking at a full sentence anyway. But then what came of it too was obviously this JC, what was then brought, she brought forward a further charge on Chris for the his cardinal knowledge of of her during her time as a pupil of his. So this is where the law gets really icky in terms of what the law was back in 1981 compared to 2020, well 2022 when this was, yeah, this was. But obviously we have very different knowledge these days to, you know, children's brain development and when they should be considered as, you know, having giving consent, etcetera.

1:01:27 But also the fact that this there was this link towards the fact of not only did this blows my mind that literally someone could have had sex with this girl who was 16, but not be their teacher. And that would be OK. But because he was she was his student and she was under the age of 17. Sorry. So that meant that he could he can't have sex with her while she's while he's her student, But the day she turns 17 and is or is no longer a student, either of those two things. So she could be still be 17 and be a be a student, but or the other way around.

1:02:05 And he can have sex with her then, which that just blows my mind that that law was back then. So a trial took place. So that was it was a really she had to prove that she was 16 and still his student when they first had sex, which would have just been. Imagine having to as a victim, having to prove like a horrible like to. Thankfully, thankfully. Thankfully. She had friends, she had witnesses. There was actually. Was there another school teacher who testified? For her? Oh, I can't remember. I feel like there was a teacher or or maybe a school administrator.

1:02:50 Someone who witnessed. Someone who witnessed. Things there's only people who said like there was witnesses that said that they came, came into the office, like into Chris Dawson's office and found him like straddling her on the desk, you know, and that that was basically like, that's right. The girl had come in to say I can't do sport today, like, you know, and put a note on the deck. He's like, put the note down. Whatever got you go. They didn't move from their position of being in this provocative, intimate position.

1:03:13 But yeah, like so those witnesses of those sorts of things, the trolley boy that we talked about in Episode 1 around how he, you know, bailed him up at Woolies or whatever and said to him, stay away from her. That obviously was being very protective of her and that he was she was his, not someone else's. Not protective, just office. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So there was many witnesses, but particularly this witness that was named CD who came forward in this trial where she discussed where she remembers being.

1:03:41 So Chris and Paul ran these fitness classes outside of school hours and all the girls from the school would be there. So they would be running these. One of the twins would do like one song of the fitness class and then they'd swap over and the other twin would run the class while the other one was in the backroom with a 16 year old girl. Now I have also heard. Now I've only actually read this in one place, but I did read that there were instances where both men so Chris and Paul in the same room, yes, having sex with different.

1:04:16 Girls. Girls, yes. So there was sexual like I'm just getting total White Lotus vibes here. Have you watched it? Yes yes, Oh my God, Patrick Schwarzenegger. But Oh my God that is fucking disgusting. You're having sex with a girl next to your brother who's also having sex with a girl in the same room. Ill. There and there have been allegations that they both then would participate. Yeah, see, that's, this is the White Lotus 5 bit. That's the thing, right? So they're having these this group sex with their brother like it's bad enough and.

1:04:56 Then we're again, we're flicking back to that beginning of our last episode where you brought up around that Chequers interview, Chequerboard interview where they they brought up sexual. It's not sexual, clearly, but, well, it's not sexual what we think it might have been. Yeah. So how long had that been going on between the two of them? Yeah, I mean, they were talking about that before they had kids. Yeah, so. Previous, previous, yeah, because there was, and there was other times where they they were in the pool together and they'd be one couple down one end of the pool and you know, Paul and his girl at the time down the other end of the pool.

1:05:29 And we're talking 1617 year old girls. And we're talking unclothed. Yeah, At least topless. Yeah, probably. So again, that was a judge alone trial as well. And at the end of that, the judge found very clearly that JC was telling the truth in that she was only 16 and had not turned 17 and also that at that time she was his student. So he was convicted of that as well. He was sentenced for that an additional four years and two years non parole. I think at the end of the day, what it actually it only actually added an extra 12 months onto his full sentence.

1:06:12 But again, I think no, sorry, 12 months onto his parole ability, right. But we can't. He's not going to get that parole. No. So we're actually talking the full amount. I think he's now up to about, I want to say he has no chance of getting out before 2042. If you're 45, it might be yet. And so he'll be dead by then. Yeah, like, I mean, he's well into his, well into his 90s by that stage. So he won't be. He'll be living out his life in. Prison. He'll be a year off 100, then he'll be 99, then so will he?

1:06:46 No, he'll be early 90. Yeah. I mean, ultimately because they had to only, they could only chart like as we're saying that they could only use the law of the day of when it happened and not today. And so the judge had to be very careful around what sentencing that he could give as well, because it had to be the maximums and things of that law of that day. Whereas we just know so much more of that this 16 year old should not be held accountable at all for any of these and that she was groomed and that that's wrong.

1:07:17 Whereas the lens of the 1980s was that that that was grooming. They didn't know what grooming was, you know, so well, that would be as difficult as a judge, I think. I mean, bad, not hard enough as us onlookers to because I hear the sentencing for that and go, that's fucked up. That's so bad. Appropriate. But it was like woefully low in the context of the law that was in place at the time they had to go by, but also the context of his age, taking into account all those sorts of things. It's kind of what do you expect?

1:07:50 You know, like it's it's going to play out as it's going to play out that he's going to live out his life in jail. Yep, as he fucking deserves it. Shits me up the wall that he has lived the majority of his life outside of those walls of prison. It's worth saying he remarried to a woman named Sue. Yes, after his marriage to JC ended and she's. They're still married to this day. Yeah. What? She knew or didn't know? I mean he lived in QLD so he moved permanently to Queensland after his relationship breakdown with JC.

1:08:22 He moved to they moved to the Gold Coast. The two like the two of them did. JC move back to. I think she must have, yeah. So, you know, I don't know how much his new wife knew about all this before it came to the fore, but he would have thought he got away with. It oh, yeah, 100%. And the arrogance of him would be that yeah, like, what the hell? Why are you all talking about this? This is so long ago. Like, whatever, Get over it. Yeah. But then thank God for the teacher's pet, because I really don't think that this would have come to the fore and I don't think he'd be in prison right now if it wasn't for Headley's investigation.

1:08:55 Absolutely, yeah. He managed to flush out so much more of what what it was and to bring it to the. I don't think that's the thing. I don't think the DPP would have prosecuted and arrested him if there wasn't the public interest in it because it was going to keep being pushed like, you know, calm on. Are you serious? And. They're like, you know, it was 40 years ago, like, you know, and these trials do cost millions of dollars, the taxpayers millions of dollars. So there's got to be justification and and good reason to which is fair.

1:09:21 That's fine. Yeah. But thank God there was that public push. And the other thing that I've, I've heard Headley interviewed many times, but one of the things that he says is in cases like this, the police need to work with investigative journalists because they have money. Yeah, they have time. Yeah, they can dedicate, like Headley dedicated 2 1/2 years solely on the teachers pet. Yes. So he had, you know, he had the backing of the Australian. It absolutely worked to their advantage. Oh, absolutely.

1:09:51 It was worth it. It was worth. It and all of the ones that he's done that he has done subsequently because he then went on to do the teachers trial where he covered the full trial. He's gone on to do Shandy's story. There's so many the night. Driver. Night driver. Yeah, there's so many that he has done that have all led to. Bronwyn's his. Latest 1 isn't it? Yeah, Bronwyn, which have all led to some resolution in the case or some pushing forward of the case. So, you know, we need to be thinking about investigations of these things in a different light.

1:10:21 And I think the teachers pet has shown us that that that's, you know, that's a wonderful thing. The media can be very powerful. Absolutely, yeah. Last thing I just want to say, too, was at the trial when he the conviction was read out, did you know about his response? So he thought the cameras had been turned off because it was actually he was, he was actually in prison because he they asked for him to not be brought in all the time into the courts because he was frail and, you know, like, so that's hard.

1:10:50 No worries. So he's on video link and he thought that the cameras were all off on the video link from the courts and he responded with. Fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck fuck. I just love that that he was pissed off. Yeah, suck shit mate. Suck shit, yeah, but I mean he knows he's done it like although he again, he's. Convinced himself, I reckon that he hasn't done it for some or something. But yeah, I don't know how you how do you live your life knowing you've taken your the mother of your children's life?

1:11:20 How do you live with yourself? And like, at the end of the day, money's money. I know money's important, but for fuck's sake, if he had a divorce, Lynn, in 1982, financially they both would have been fine by now. It would have moved on. They would have. They would have been OK. You know that. As I said, they weren't destitute. Yes, your life changes when you get divorced. Yes, of course, you don't have the joint assets of the family. You make the choices you make. That's it. And. Like fucking just divorce or don't kill her.

1:11:47 Yep, seriously do. Yeah, it's just seriously. Seriously. All right. Should we leave it there? I think we've. Done. You know what I just realized? I haven't looked to see what we're investigating next week. I do. What I know, I know. But I you know why I know I know this because someone's been hassling us to do it. I know exactly now that you say that. I love this so one of our regular commenters on the on Instagram, I think, Oh no, she's all over the place. She's she's comments every Spotify Nicole, otherwise known as nudes.

1:12:22 Love your work. Thanks Nudes, but News has been very, very, very keen for us to do a particular case. Every time. She comments should suggest as I'm still waiting. Well here it comes nudes. So next week we are doing the Claremont, yes, so. I actually there is a lot to that case and Oh my God, it's a heart wrenching one, but it's also one that I feel like has gotten a bit lost because there was a two, there was a dramatization. Oh my God, I'll find out this finally. Look into it. But I feel like it's one of those cases that sometimes I'll say it to people and I thought it was quite well known because I listened to a podcast about it.

1:13:03 But even with. You I followed daily like the trial like. Yeah, but then people don't know details, so this might be a good one. I think actually it's one where you I think in that like the trial was just starting. You're like, you're on this right? And I'm like, huh, what? And I think that was when I got was like, Oh my God, I didn't know about this one and followed from then on like. It's good, but yeah, it's a good case. It is interesting, very interesting, interesting, yes. So we're looking forward to this one.

1:13:26 It's, yeah, just a big one, but we're here for it. That's it. And you nudes. So join us next week for that. It's a big one. So join us for that. Yeah, please as always, like, subscribe, send us messages, DMS, follow us on Spotify, on Apple Podcasts, Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, YouTube, all. We're all. Everywhere. If you want to send us an e-mail, you can at 2 Crime, so they're all written out. TWO [email protected] if you've got some case suggestions and if you would like to buy us a coffee, you can do so at buymeacoffee.com/two Crime Besties.

1:14:07 I think I didn't shout out the other day, but attractive. My friend from work bought us a couple of coffee, so thanks for that attractor. I did thank her in person, but you know. Love that. Thank you. I love it. I. Really appreciate it. All good. Well, stay curious, crime besties, and we'll see you next week. Bye.