Episode 45 - Lynette Simms (Dawson) and Chris Dawson (The Teachers Pet Case) Part 1

0:15 Welcome to another episode of Two Crime Besties, everybody.

0:18 Hi everyone. Episode 45 Meg.

0:20 I know we're just saying that's insane.

0:22 When Elliot like a year. Yeah, yeah.

0:25 It's so close. It is.

0:27 We've got it. And we'll just say we have to

0:28 really think about what's gonna be Episode 50.

0:30 Yeah. Can you guys give us some

0:32 suggestions of what you might like for our 50th episode?

0:34 I feel like it's a good milestone to celebrate.

0:36 So like which way do we go? Do we go a celebrity type case?

0:40 Where do we go? Give us some suggestions.

0:42 Yeah. And we've like, I was really

0:44 saying like in, I think you actually mentioned it in your

0:46 little mini EP that you let us know we weren't coming back for

0:49 a couple of weeks. We're saying we've got to 50,000

0:51 plays and we're pretty much at 60,000 already.

0:54 It's just insane. Sorry.

0:55 It's crazy, crazy. Yeah, we really seeing the

0:59 numbers climb and climb. So thanks to everybody who for

1:02 joining. Actually, I think you said at

1:04 the beginning of this year like we could make 50,000 plays by

1:07 the end of the year. I think I said 100,000 by the.

1:09 End. No, I think originally you said

1:10 50 and then God, I think it was when we went, no, wait, hang on.

1:15 You actually get to 50. Yeah, yeah, to 100.

1:19 Oh God, I'm doing it again. Short changing us again.

1:23 Just on that note though, we have had so much engagement on

1:26 our socials lately. In particular, we're getting

1:29 like some inbox messages through Spotify especially.

1:34 Yeah. And then we've had so many

1:37 Instagram DMS and comments on on posts and stuff that we're

1:40 doing. So thank you to everybody who's

1:42 commenting, posting. We do try to get back to

1:44 everyone, but I just had a shout out for for a few of our besties

1:50 today. Love it.

1:50 So Josie, Sabrina and Lauren, thank you so much for contacting

1:54 us. Lauren contacted us saying that

1:58 she only just realised that we're actually called 2 crime

2:01 besties, not true crime besties. So obviously our Annunciation

2:05 needs to be worked on. So we'll take that feedback on

2:08 board. Thanks, Lauren.

2:08 I remember us recording our original like intro episode.

2:11 I remember the two of us like going I know we have to do

2:13 again. Did you just say 2 or true?

2:15 I don't know what did I say and. Then we were like, why have we

2:18 done this to ourselves? Like we chose this name and

2:20 we're we're getting tongue tied saying I still sometimes get

2:23 tongue tied saying it now. I'm certain when I do the it's

2:25 actually don't even notice it until I actually go to edit and

2:28 I'm like Dick an idiot and it's both of us.

2:32 Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

2:34 And you just, I don't know, it just rolls off the tongue.

2:36 It does. Well, we'll answer to either.

2:38 But there's a reason why we went with the 2 Chrome besties we

2:40 could probably we've never shared the reason of the two

2:42 like big thing and like yeah. We could, we could.

2:47 So we originally were gonna start a different type.

2:50 So we've always thought we, you know, what it takes to be

2:53 podcasters, Pat, on our own back.

2:56 Oh, yeah, yeah. And so before we even, you know,

2:59 got to this, we're obviously brainstorming ideas.

3:02 And I'd say for a good 12 months before we even started

3:05 recording, we were talking. About it.

3:06 Easy, I reckon. Even longer.

3:08 Yeah. And so we came up with a

3:10 concept, and it is still something that one day I would

3:13 love to do. Yeah.

3:15 So we're not gonna give too much away of what it actually is.

3:17 No one else. Someone might steal that idea.

3:20 Oh. For sure like I would, it's such

3:22 a good idea. But anyway, it was called, it

3:23 was gonna be called too forward TWO forward.

3:27 Why is it gonna be called too forward me because.

3:30 Apparently I'm too forward according to your husband.

3:35 Yeah, one day for it was like what was it even in relation?

3:38 I'm just having a mental blank now, but Peters like oh, isn't

3:41 that a bit too forward? It's.

3:44 Been this ongoing little inside joke, like too forward,

3:48 whatever, I'd come over or whatever and say they say to you

3:51 like, oh, can I have a glass of water too forward?

3:54 Certainly, but you've got to help yourself.

3:56 Actually, we've gone well. Yeah, so we knew a glass of

3:58 water. At my house.

3:59 Oh gorgeous. So yeah, this is was this

4:01 ongoing joke for like couple good few years.

4:04 Was that there that we're like, oh, we have to use that now?

4:05 Name, Yeah. So one day, stay tuned.

4:08 We you never know if we ever can do this and make a bit of money

4:11 from it. That too forward might come to

4:13 fruition. Yeah, that'd be awesome.

4:15 Very good. So we you've had a bit of a big

4:17 week this week. It was your birthday yesterday.

4:21 Yes, my 40th, right? Yes, your 40th.

4:23 Pin Yeah. I know my asshole brother.

4:27 I said to him like, you know, we're going away for the weekend

4:29 and he's and I'm like, yeah, yeah, we're going away for my

4:31 40th and he goes, so you can't, you can't get away with that,

4:35 can't you? Freaking asshole?

4:37 Yes, I can. Yes, you absolutely can.

4:39 Yeah, absolutely. It's just, you know, a little

4:41 bit delayed. That's all.

4:43 Yeah, it's a little bit plus a bit 40 + a bit.

4:46 It was fun. We had, we went away last

4:48 weekend. I think we spoke about that in

4:49 one of our episodes and one of our recent episodes.

4:51 We went away for some school mums and it was lots and lots of

4:54 fun. So much fun.

4:56 We had some really nice meals and yeah.

4:58 Shout out shout out to Sweet Bang Sweet bang.

5:04 She knows who she knows. It was really good fun, really

5:09 nice weekend, but what did you get up to yesterday?

5:11 Yesterday for my actual birthday.

5:13 Actual 40th? Well, I mean lost something.

5:17 Yeah, no, such a birthday celebration.

5:20 It was a big celebration day. So yeah, got up and made

5:24 breakfast for myself and went to work and then picked up the kids

5:27 from school and went to do basketball training and then

5:30 went home and we had cake and stuff when I got home, but

5:33 that's it. It's the way.

5:36 Birthdays go these days, isn't it?

5:38 Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then obviously it's Mother's

5:40 Day this weekend anyway, so it's like the birthday.

5:41 Just really. Did not plan that well.

5:44 No, I blame my mother. Parents didn't.

5:45 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Why do you blame your brother?

5:48 No, I said. I blame my.

5:49 Mother, your mother. I was like, how's your brother?

5:51 I'm sure I could find a way to blame a brother.

5:55 Yeah, it's totally your mum and dad.

5:56 Yeah, yeah, totally. They're fruit.

5:58 No, absolutely. Combining it all into one like

6:00 that for people. I shouldn't.

6:01 Yeah, be convenient for people or anything.

6:03 Oh well, you know, it's horrible having celebrations close

6:07 together. Yeah, my boys did such a good

6:10 job last night making me feel very special.

6:12 They sang, They sang happy birthday to me.

6:15 They were freaking hilarious. Actually.

6:17 It's a little buck go, like, you know, moves from Brody and the

6:20 and bro and yeah, Mason yelling it at the top of his lungs.

6:23 It's just, it was gorgeous. So gorgeous.

6:25 So yeah. And that was after you'd flipped

6:28 them around to basketball training and had a whinged and.

6:32 Like. Yeah, yeah.

6:33 Do I have to move? I know I got last night.

6:36 This is the worst day of my life.

6:39 Glad when they say. That I know I can't help but

6:41 laugh at it because I'm like dude, I think it's just.

6:44 Effective, mate. Life is gonna really eat you up,

6:47 yeah. I mean, you don't want anything

6:51 bad to happen. Oh God no.

6:52 A bit of perspective every now and then.

6:54 The fact that there's no basketball rings free for me to

6:57 play on whilst my brother has training is actually not the

7:00 worst day of your life. Yeah, yeah, I'm.

7:02 Really confidently gonna say that.

7:07 Oh, seriously, kids? Yeah, Seriously.

7:09 Yeah, the. Same, like sometimes things will

7:11 happen, they'll be like, that was the worst off.

7:13 I never want to do that again. And I'm like, well, two things

7:16 you've got to. Yeah.

7:18 But yeah, so it's actually not that bad.

7:20 It's really not OK. Yeah, it's actually gonna be OK.

7:22 Here as sport, Brad, if you think that's the worst thing

7:25 that's gonna happen. Oh my God, kids these days.

7:28 I'll tell you how good they've got it.

7:31 We were talking this morning. I can't even remember.

7:34 Oh, actually Oliver was asking something about university and

7:38 Peter goes he's like, Oh yeah, uni's the best because not only

7:44 do you get like 3 or nearly four months off over Christmas, you

7:49 basically you might have a lecture in the morning and then

7:51 maybe like a chute or a. Pub in the afternoon.

7:54 Yeah, he's like, then you go to the pub, you play around the

7:56 golf, you go and get a good feed somewhere and Oliver's like, oh,

8:00 I can't wait for. It although I think these days

8:04 it is a bit different to when we went because it's all I think a

8:07 lot of us online and stuff. What I'm gathering from other

8:09 friends, kids who have now uni, which is insane, but yeah, they

8:12 I mean, yeah, one of them in particular was talking to you

8:14 saying like, you know, well, yeah, Uni life, God, I loved it.

8:16 Like, you know, and she was like, Oh yeah, people don't

8:18 really hang out at uni. And I was like, oh, maybe it's

8:22 certain courses. I don't know.

8:23 But yeah, maybe. Yeah, she's like, yeah, she

8:26 really goes in like once a week or something.

8:28 So you can't build for relationships when you go in

8:30 once a week. Away I.

8:31 Still love uni. Yeah, that's why I did five

8:33 years of it. That's a lot.

8:36 That's a lot, yeah. But then I think at the time you

8:39 don't appreciate how good you've.

8:40 Got Oh God no. You know you've got a little

8:42 part time job, Yeah. And the rest of your life is

8:45 yours, free and easy, and you don't appreciate.

8:48 It living at home with the parents at the same time and

8:50 studying and stuff and going like I have all this money.

8:54 OK. And you start to like, maybe get

8:55 a slightly better job than your, you know, your subway jobs or

8:58 whatever. Like your first job managing

9:00 like decent, managing the store and stuff by that stage of like,

9:03 you know, just like on the weekends and like and that and I

9:05 was like, oh, you rocking? They're drunk.

9:10 Hungover, a bit dusty, a bit dusty.

9:12 Speaking of dusty, so we did go away last weekend.

9:15 I literally feel like only. So we got back, well, I got back

9:19 very early Sunday morning just. To commute, I don't know how you

9:21 got up early I. I really don't even know.

9:24 Haley and I got back home and I was like, now we had a whole day

9:29 to, like, keep going with. Yeah, It's actually literally

9:33 taken me until today, Friday, to get over it.

9:38 Yes. I was just exhausted.

9:39 I sent a photo to everyone in our group on Monday morning, and

9:42 I had three drinks lined up. I had a Barocca.

9:45 No, I had four. I had a Barocca, a hydrolight, a

9:49 water or a tea, and my water bottle all lined up at work.

9:53 Yeah, I've never been that thirsty in my life.

9:56 I was so dry. The next Oh, that's Monday.

9:59 You're good at prepping though, like you always, you always like

10:01 send me a shot of your prep of, you know, like your hydra light

10:03 your coffee, you know, like, and I always look at it and think,

10:05 Oh my God, is she gonna wear her pants?

10:07 Shoot her pants. I'd be hydrated for the whole

10:10 day just. So to everyone, none of that's

10:12 ever actually happened. That she's willing to admit.

10:18 I swear to you I have never wet or she.

10:26 Oh God, your prep works well. Yeah, well, I'm, I'm pre

10:30 hydrating. It's my pregame, Yeah.

10:32 And it works for me. Yeah, generally I don't then

10:34 have like, you know, the horrible hangover the next day.

10:36 Yeah, yeah. Oh shit, very funny.

10:40 Oh, should we get into the start of today?

10:42 Just really quickly I was gonna say because I'm having

10:45 flashbacks seeing you on the screen at the moment of of

10:47 another episode we did. Do you know which one I'm

10:49 talking about? Oh yes, I do.

10:50 As soon as I put this on this morning, I'm like, she's gonna

10:53 say something about it. But having said that, this is

10:56 not the top I wore. No, it's not.

10:58 It's. Not as high of a of a turtle.

11:00 No, it's just giving vibes, Yeah.

11:02 It's giving vibes of the Elizabeth.

11:04 Messages. Yeah, if you agree, well, isn't

11:07 Elizabeth Holmes. Or is it The Rock?

11:12 Well, actually I've got a gold chain.

11:13 You have. Maybe it's giving the rock.

11:17 Yeah, I'll take it. Oh God, I'll take it, love.

11:20 It. So what we've decided to do,

11:24 we're going to do a 2 parter on this case.

11:25 So we're doing the Lynette Dawson, Lynette Sims.

11:28 She's now known again as Lynette Sims.

11:30 Yep, case that was made incredibly popular by the

11:34 Teachers Pet Podcast I had before the teacher's pet.

11:38 I'd never even heard her name before.

11:40 So the fact that, you know, this podcast gained so much

11:43 popularity, it really sort of. I think the Teacher's Pet

11:48 podcast is now at something like worldwide, like 60 million

11:51 downloads or something. It's one of the top ten of all

11:54 time. Yeah, yeah.

11:55 Very popular and if you haven't gone and listened to it, I mean,

11:58 it's a long form podcast. If you've got you know, you want

12:00 to put into a long form one highly, highly recommend if you

12:03 haven't listened to it, because his investigation, his

12:06 investigative journalism is top notch like and his dulcet tones.

12:11 Oh yeah, he's got a beautiful voice.

12:12 Yes, he does have a nice voice. Yeah, I've actually seen him

12:16 live. So Hedley Thomas is who we're

12:17 talking about. I went to see him with my

12:20 girlfriend, Michelle. Oh, this was.

12:22 I want to say right 2018 like. Right at the height of it I

12:26 think. It had been taken down at that

12:28 point when you went. To see it being taken down.

12:30 So they'd only recorded at that point the 1st 14, like the core

12:34 episodes at that. Point yes, because I only I got

12:37 up to like episode. I want to say like episode 8

12:40 before they took it down and then so then I was like stuck on

12:43 episode 8 going. What happens, man?

12:46 Yeah. So they actually removed it from

12:49 being able to listen to. We'll get to this a little bit

12:50 more in next week's episode. Yeah, we can talk about that in

12:54 a lot more detail. But, you know, thank God for

12:58 this kind of investigative journalism because without it, I

13:01 don't think we would have seen the.

13:03 We wouldn't have even really known about this case, and it

13:06 certainly wouldn't have had the justice or an outcome that it

13:08 has. Yeah, that's why we wanted to

13:10 cover it. And we feel like A2 parter is

13:12 probably appropriate because we've got a lot to talk about.

13:16 But as Meg said, if you want to know in a lot more depth, there

13:20 is so, so, so, so, so much nuance to this and so many

13:25 little, tiny little details which we there's no way

13:27 obviously we'll be able to cover into one hour episode.

13:30 And obviously his interviews in that, you know, in hearing from

13:32 people directly, that's right. It's really fabulous.

13:35 Yeah, Incredible. Incredible right?

13:38 So this is a case of, well, the eventual murder of Lynette Sims.

13:45 So Lynette Joy Sims was born on the 5th of May in 1948 in

13:48 Sydney, NSW, Australia. She was the eldest of three

13:52 children in her family. So her daddy's name was Len, her

13:56 mum Helena. She had a brother named Greg and

14:00 a sister named Pat. And they are, they are

14:03 interviewed in the in the Teachers Pet podcast.

14:07 And especially Greg and his wife Marilyn.

14:11 They really contributed a lot. And I think a lot of the times

14:14 you see spokespeople for the family, it's usually Greg and

14:17 Marilyn who are, you know, at the forefront of that.

14:19 And they have not given up on achieving.

14:23 Justice for Yeah, I mean, before even Hadley Thomas getting

14:25 involved, they were in the background pushing things and

14:28 trying to find ways to get this out there and get, you know, an

14:31 action on this. But I think.

14:33 The other thing is as well, it wasn't only her family who were

14:36 doing that. She had Sue Strass, yes, friend

14:38 who she Lynn worked at a childcare centre and even she

14:42 was going, she went to like an ombudsman to try and get some

14:45 advice on what to do. So people were really trying

14:48 hard to get this case moving, but we're probably getting a

14:52 little bit ahead of ourselves. Yeah, yeah.

14:54 Lynn attended like local schools in Sydney, just, you know, the

14:58 local high, local primary and high schools.

15:00 And she was quite academic and a really diligent student,

15:04 according to according to her teachers.

15:07 Yes, Chris Dawson. Chris Dawson, he's.

15:13 A well, I'm going to say it up front, piece of shit, but we'll

15:17 get to. It giant piece of shit.

15:19 Giant piece of shit. Yeah, So Christopher Michael

15:21 Dawson was born on the 26th of July in 1948 in Sydney, NSW,

15:26 Australia. He was the second of three

15:28 brothers. So he has a twin, an identical,

15:31 and I mean identical twin. Brothers, so many ways that like

15:35 these two grew up actually they started their own language that

15:40 they had to be taken to speech therapy for because no one else

15:42 could understand them. But they were that entwined with

15:44 each other that they could understand each other without

15:47 speaking or and then they developed this whole other

15:50 language between the two of them.

15:51 Did you? Watch, there's a Checkerboard

15:54 episode. So Checkerboard was an old, I

15:55 think it was an ABC production and you can watch it on YouTube.

15:59 Yeah. And basically the episode was

16:02 about twins, yes. And the relationship twins have.

16:05 So by this stage Chris and Lynette were married and also

16:10 Paul and his wife Marilyn were married and they were both.

16:15 They were all interviewed for this chequerboard.

16:17 I think I have a long. Time ago.

16:19 Yeah. Yeah.

16:20 It's fascinating to watch. But what I found really

16:23 interesting about that is so they're talking about Twyndham

16:26 and Lynn says a story about how 'cause Lynn was a nurse and

16:30 she'd come off a shift one day and she went over and she went

16:33 up and hugged who she thought was Chris, and it turned out to

16:36 be Paul. But Chris wasn't happy with

16:37 that. And, you know, there was.

16:40 So you start to be OK already. She's saying this on a national

16:43 TV program. She, I mean, she loved.

16:45 Yeah, Yes. And she goes, oh, Chris wasn't

16:48 very happy with that. And I'm like, oh, OK.

16:50 But then the brothers actually talking about because they were

16:54 so close. And I think in that checkerboard

16:56 program, they do talk about the the fact that they had their own

17:01 language. They had to do speech therapy

17:02 because nobody could understand them but themselves.

17:05 And then they said something along the lines of people who

17:10 don't have an identical twin do not understand the bond that we

17:14 have, But they go, they said something like, well, it's not

17:17 really like it's not a, it's not a sexual thing.

17:20 And I'm. Like, why would you?

17:21 Why would you even say that? Why would you say that?

17:25 Well, we'll get to. That get to that for sure.

17:27 But that's really. Interesting.

17:28 Yeah, that they actually vocalize that.

17:30 Yeah. And not even like with an

17:31 interviewer say, directly asking them about it.

17:33 I think the interviewer said something about, you know, it's,

17:36 it's a really intimate bond. But not that's not.

17:40 No, no. Meaning.

17:42 That's interesting. Yeah, isn't it?

17:43 Yeah. That they know everything about

17:45 each other. Which.

17:46 OK, Yeah. You've grown up with this person

17:47 from conception. Yes, yeah, but yeah, yeah, they

17:52 absolutely like were twins that would switch places for each

17:55 other too. I think one of them sat the

17:57 drivers license for the other one because he was at training

17:59 for rugby. Yep, I believe Paul even like to

18:03 he was I think he was the slightly better rugby player

18:06 should mention because obviously they both played high quality

18:08 rugby and you know, so they he he made it kind of thing, but he

18:12 said he wouldn't go to the team unless his brother came with

18:15 him. So he basically negotiated his

18:17 contract to get his brother in as well.

18:21 Yeah. Which is interesting how how Co

18:23 dependent, Co dependent they were, yeah.

18:25 Well, it and that that existed up until well, I'm sure it still

18:29 exists to this day, but even we could see it throughout like the

18:33 ends of this story. Yes, they their bond was.

18:38 Unbreakable. Absolutely unbreakable.

18:40 Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, so, you know, you hear

18:43 about families who live near each other, but even, like,

18:45 these two ended up living, like, just down the road from each

18:47 other too, didn't they? Like.

18:48 Well, they built houses in the same.

18:50 Street. Yeah, yeah.

18:53 So you can need more space from my siblings than that.

18:56 Oh yeah, I'm happy to be here, although I'd like to see my

19:00 nephews more often. Yeah.

19:02 So they attended Sydney Boys High School, Chris and Paul were

19:06 both prefects there and they graduated in 1966.

19:09 Yeah, they both, as you said, the way that they came to both

19:13 be in the same team is an interesting one that you've just

19:15 explained. Yeah, but they both played a

19:17 second row forwards for the Newtown Jets in the NSW Rugby

19:22 League from 1972 to 1977. Chris made 53 appearances over

19:27 that time and scored eleven tries, which apparently is not

19:30 bad. Yeah, yeah, pretty, pretty good.

19:32 Yeah, given the position he played, I think that was that

19:34 was pretty good. Yeah, so they had they were

19:36 known publicly. They weren't just people loved.

19:40 Yeah, so they. Weren't really good looking.

19:42 Yeah. So then some modeling as well

19:44 and a lot of them, what would we would consider in Australia here

19:47 at the time where people would call them the chesty bonds, look

19:50 alikes, they were very well. Well, how should we say it?

19:56 Very attractive. Very, very attractive.

19:57 Very attractive. They were athletic.

19:59 Yeah, they were very popular. They were.

20:02 Clean cut looking? Absolutely.

20:04 Easy going in that they were like, up for anything.

20:06 Larrikins. Larrikins.

20:08 Yeah. Good Aussie.

20:09 Shall we say charismatic? I would say that I would 100%.

20:14 And we get. We'll get more to that again.

20:17 Yeah. So Lynette Sims and Chris Dawson

20:20 met when they were both aged 16. Yeah.

20:22 At a high school function in 1965.

20:26 They were married in 1970, so they were only 21 when they got.

20:30 Married. We think that it's so young.

20:32 I think back then it was considered quite, that was

20:35 probably fairly average age for getting married, etcetera.

20:37 But like for us it was just kind of going to go, Oh my God, 21.

20:40 I think back to what I was doing at 21 and like, certainly not

20:42 having like, getting married and yeah, yeah.

20:47 So it was after they were married that Paul and Chris's

20:53 rugby careers took off. So, you know, they, they met

20:58 before all of that. But I think you know, the

21:00 popularity of Chris and Paul, once they became rugby players

21:05 and quite well known in the community, especially around

21:08 that Northern beaches, the Insular Peninsula.

21:11 We've spoken about that in previous episodes as well

21:13 because and it is absolutely a thing and it 100% played a part

21:19 in what ended up happening. The cover ups that happened in

21:22 relation to this case and the injustice that Lynn and her

21:26 family, and I'm talking about The Sims family here and her

21:29 daughters as well that they faced over the time for sure.

21:33 So after ending his their rugby careers, Paul and Chris both

21:37 became high school teachers. High school PE teachers.

21:41 Chris worked at Croma High School, yeah, and which is in

21:45 Sydney and they, they didn't make an amazing impression in

21:52 terms, I mean, sorry, everyone loved them.

21:54 There were these ex rugby players.

21:56 People idolize them for that. I mean, it's like any elite

22:00 sports person I guess. Yeah, their abilities are

22:03 absolutely admired by people, aren't they?

22:06 And because they were so good looking, they've gone to work as

22:09 PE teachers in a high school and I'm sure they got a lot of

22:13 attention that should have been rejected.

22:16 Absolutely was it I mean, we've both been teenage girls.

22:19 Yep and PA teachers typically they fit healthy, like you know,

22:24 you kind of tend to like they can be teachers that can be

22:27 easily had a crush on by a 1516 year old or they're you know,

22:31 your hormones are raging at that age and all those sorts of

22:34 things. Yep and APA teacher,

22:36 particularly as many other teachers, male teachers and

22:38 female teachers, it goes both genders.

22:40 I'm not, but when this story we're talking about men and and

22:44 young girls and you know, but as a teacher, you know, to have

22:48 that. Boundary.

22:49 Boundary. Yeah, you would think.

22:53 Oh well, one would think. You would hope.

22:55 But turns out. Turns out no.

22:57 We now know that that wasn't necessarily the case.

23:00 Yeah. And both brothers were engaging

23:03 in illicit affairs and experiences with their young.

23:08 Students so. We've got so many things going

23:11 on here. We've got teachers exploiting

23:13 their positions. We've got grown men, yeah,

23:18 exploiting young women. And I'm not talking one or two

23:22 girls. I'm talking like sex rings.

23:25 Yeah, it is. It was a sex ring.

23:27 Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

23:29 The stories that like have now come out from those that were

23:31 involved and we're gonna call one of them in particular.

23:33 This plays a big part in this JC.

23:35 We're gonna use that name respectfully as people probably

23:38 know who went like the her actual name.

23:40 But as as Hedley Thomas did and his teachers pet podcast, we are

23:45 going to call her JC because in this situation, she was a child

23:49 in this and so she needs to be respected for not being named.

23:53 And we're going to continue through with that in this.

23:55 So JC has come forward with lots of stories of that.

23:57 And then others have also come forward since around what was

24:00 going on between the young girls and these two, particularly

24:04 these two teachers. And there was there were

24:07 multiple teachers at Chrome. There were multiple teachers.

24:09 But I mean, we're obviously focusing on Chris and Shaw.

24:11 But yeah, they were certainly not the only ones.

24:13 And as, and I think we've talked, talked about other cases

24:16 as well along the way where we kind of go, whoa, hang on.

24:19 Were they involved with that? And did they all know each

24:21 other? Because it's a similar time

24:22 frame. And yeah, it wasn't just even

24:24 these these two high schools. It was there was multiple

24:26 involved and you think I think back to that in the North Shore,

24:30 yeah. That Marion Barton case where,

24:31 you know, there was some stuff, I don't think it actually linked

24:34 towards her disappearance at all.

24:35 But in that case there was some stuff that came out around like

24:38 she was, I'm sure what was happening with some teachers and

24:40 probably knew something and an information that might have been

24:43 why she disappeared. You know, there was talk of that

24:45 within her that case that I think that potentially, yeah,

24:48 Marion, there was some knowledge there of teachers being

24:50 inappropriate with children. Yeah.

24:52 And the law back then, which plays a part later on to it was

24:54 quite different to what it is now, which I, this is what it

24:58 really makes me feel sick around these girls though a lot was put

25:01 on these girls for this. You know, that that was their

25:03 fault for what went on in that they were provocative and that

25:07 they were the ones seeking this out with their teachers.

25:10 And so. Oh, what were the men to do?

25:12 Yeah. So.

25:13 There was, there's been, I mean, I think it's pretty well known

25:16 to everybody that these cases have eventually either been come

25:20 out in the media or have actually been, have gone to

25:22 court. Yeah, but there's a in some

25:24 court documentation regarding all of this.

25:27 There was a girl, a girl at the time, who's only referred to ACD

25:32 in the court transcripts. And she talks about the fact

25:37 that she felt she felt it was her fault.

25:41 And that's why she didn't come forward for a long time, because

25:43 she did find the teachers attractive and she thought they

25:46 were gorgeous. And when they gave her

25:48 attention, she thought she couldn't believe it.

25:50 She couldn't believe that they wanted to do things with her.

25:54 But then when it got to the point that they were doing

25:56 things with her, she was like, Oh no, oh, this thing is wrong.

25:59 But she felt she couldn't say no.

26:01 She's gone that far. And so, you know, you think

26:04 about that's one girl's experience that we know of.

26:06 I'm sure she's not the only one who had that exact same

26:09 experience. Yeah.

26:10 Well, I mean this JC so she was a very vulnerable girl.

26:14 She was having issues at home, Her mother had remarried and

26:20 she'd met an interesting bloke. So the statistically speaking,

26:25 this, you know, can come with some, you know, interesting

26:29 dynamics. So brought in this this other

26:32 guy to the the family and he was an alcoholic, violent, you know,

26:37 so JC was dealing with a lot at home.

26:40 And so this brought with it. She was looking for, I guess a

26:42 father figure too, you know. So she to have this man, this

26:46 teacher at school showing interest in her, who was a, you

26:49 know, a good ear for her to chat to, who generally listen to her

26:53 about her issues that were going on.

26:56 I mean, the poor girl was in this situation of like, I don't

26:59 want to be at home, but the the the company of this much older

27:03 man. So at this point she was like

27:05 1516 and he was 32. He was twice her age.

27:10 I mean, it must have, you know, she must have been feeling quite

27:14 special that he was, you know, because he actually said he

27:16 manipulated the classes. He he saw her before even

27:19 talking to her and getting to know this about her.

27:22 He manipulated the classes so that she was in his classes and

27:26 so he could get to know her. Now, I dare say he knew who she

27:30 was in the school. I'm sure he spoke to current

27:32 teachers of like, oh, who's that girl?

27:34 And you know, and they'd be, oh, she's got a troubled life at

27:36 home. And you know, those sorts of

27:37 things he targeted is so predatory.

27:40 So then manipulate the classes so that he was her teacher is

27:43 just horrific. Well, she was so vulnerable to

27:47 in that situation because I think you're right, she was

27:49 looking for stability. She was looking for a family

27:52 life that she didn't have at home.

27:54 And Chris was offering her that because he asked her to come and

27:58 babysit for their children. So I think we're just going back

28:00 just really, really goodly. Lynn and Chris had two daughters

28:05 and you know, so Lynn was raising these daughters.

28:09 As I mentioned before, she was a nurse, but she then after they,

28:13 or actually even before they had kids, she'd started working at

28:16 this childcare centre. But that.

28:17 Well, that's where I can make a little bit confused because the

28:19 old, like childcare qualification was actually

28:22 called a mother craft nurse. Yeah.

28:24 So I think that's what she studied, not necessarily like

28:26 medical nursing. I thought she worked at a

28:29 hospital prior. To oh, OK, maybe she had done

28:31 both or done 1. I don't know.

28:33 Yeah. Because I don't know whether

28:34 because when I was reading, I was like, are people confused by

28:36 that term that's being used or am I getting confused?

28:39 Yeah, because back back then it would have been mother craft

28:41 nurse is what they would have been qualified in to be working

28:44 in children with children. Yeah, but I mean by all accounts

28:48 she was such a caring and nurturing woman even before she

28:51 was a mum, but then even more so once she became a mother to

28:55 these. Two and they had trouble falling

28:57 on pregnant and she and all she wanted was to be a mum.

29:00 And I can relate a little bit to this situation in that she's in

29:04 this relationship with a man who is quite clearly controlling

29:09 from the get go. You know that there was the

29:10 issues in the marriage, but then to have the element of not

29:13 falling pregnant and her she must that would have really hit

29:16 her, her worth in this marriage of like this is my fault that

29:20 I'm not giving him what he deserves.

29:21 He deserves children. He's this great bloke because in

29:24 the community's eyes, he was, you know, that for her that

29:27 would have been absolutely devastating that she wasn't

29:30 able, her body wasn't doing what it was supposed to do.

29:33 And you know, so he probably manipulated that to make her

29:36 feel pretty terrible about, I mean, heaven forbid it be his.

29:39 The reason, like he might be contributing factor to why they

29:43 weren't falling pregnant, but it would be made out to be entirely

29:46 her fault as to why that was occurring.

29:48 So again, there's more abuse. 100% yeah.

29:52 So it's, it's she would have been in an awful situation of

29:55 like finally getting these girls.

29:57 So she was, she adored these children.

29:59 She wanted them desperately. And then, and she was a

30:02 brilliant mum by it from all accounts.

30:04 Everyone says it, Yeah, everyone.

30:06 Her Co workers, her friends, her neighbors, you know, apparently.

30:10 And you listen to like, I'm just sort of referring now back to

30:14 that checkerboard program because it's one of the only

30:16 times you can actually hear Lynn's voice.

30:18 Yeah, she's so lovely. Yeah.

30:20 So nicely spoken. Very soft, very gentle, very

30:25 just love. She just seemed so lovely and I

30:27 can imagine that nature as a mum, like she would have been an

30:31 incredible mum and as I said, everyone who witnessed her as a

30:34 mum said she was second to none. Like her, her daughter, her

30:38 eldest daughter Chanel, we've heard a little bit from in more

30:41 recent years, who was only four at the time when she lost her

30:44 mum. And then her younger sister who

30:46 was two even. Yeah.

30:47 So even Sharon, wasn't it? Yes, Sharon.

30:49 Sharon. Yeah, so the, the older one,

30:52 like, I mean, being 4, she has small memories, you know, of her

30:55 mum and even to her, and probably it's more feelings than

30:58 it is actual distinct memories. And she remembers her mum just

31:02 being beautiful and caring, you know.

31:04 So it's something that, you know, she was, she was

31:08 definitely a a very beautiful person inside and out.

31:10 Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

31:13 So I mean, Lynn, by this stage, you know, they've got their two

31:17 children. They're settling into family

31:19 life. And Lynn didn't drive, so she

31:23 caught the bus everywhere. Again.

31:24 Controlling, interesting choice. And so she would catch the bus

31:28 she'd but she'd do everything. It's not like it stopped her.

31:30 She wouldn't take the kids swimming.

31:32 She'd take them to the beach, she'd take them to the park.

31:34 She'd go everywhere and do everything that needed to be

31:36 done on the bus. So it was that was something

31:40 that she was, you know, quite well versed in and, and all of

31:43 that jazz. So where are we at now?

31:46 Really? We're sort of at the point now

31:48 where we've established the fact that Chris is, you know, he's

31:54 forming these inappropriate, inappropriate relationships at

31:58 school with young students. Lynn is at her workplace

32:04 managing the girls, doing, from what I can gather, the lion's

32:07 share of the child rearing. Yeah.

32:09 But because Chris, you know, being the the wonderful father

32:13 that he was, he thought maybe JC could become the family

32:16 babysitter so that when he and Lynn wanted to go out or had an

32:19 appointment or had things to do, there was somebody there to care

32:22 for their children. He put it across to her like,

32:24 you know, I'm helping you out because she was returning to

32:26 work. Obviously she was working as

32:28 well, Lynn, so it was to help out, be helpful around the house

32:33 and that the idea was that JC would be another pair of hands,

32:38 like more of a nanny. I think give and give JC some

32:41 time where she wasn't having to go home to her horrible home

32:45 life, spend time in their home instead, which JC was very keen

32:49 to do in terms of being around just a regular, what we know,

32:52 what she considered a regular family and to see see how that

32:54 function. I think at the start JC was

32:57 doing daytime and, you know, evening sort of babysitting, and

33:01 then that evolved to overnight. Because she certainly was

33:04 around, like witnessing Lynn with the children as well as

33:08 when she was being alone with the children.

33:09 So that's right. Yeah, she certainly saw their

33:11 interactions and what that was like, unfortunately.

33:15 You know, there were often times that Chris and JC were alone in

33:18 the house with the girls, and on this one particular day, Lynn

33:22 came home and he, she found JC and Chris in bed together.

33:27 And it was all very much like covered.

33:30 Covered up. Really.

33:31 Yeah, I don't think. Yeah, this happened.

33:33 This came out in one of the later episodes.

33:35 So it wasn't in the core episodes of The Teachers.

33:37 Yeah. It was one of the later ones.

33:39 Yeah. That and it was a diary entry.

33:41 I think they can't. And yeah, they'd been caught in

33:45 bed together. So Lynn was like, she can't come

33:46 back here and. He did move her in.

33:50 Yeah, he moved. Was this before or after?

33:51 No, she had moved in. She had moved in at.

33:53 This because I thought that okay all.

33:55 Right, Sorry. No, sorry.

33:58 No, she hadn't moved in. This was on one of the days that

34:01 she, it was like an overnight or something like that.

34:04 And she was like, oh, she can't stay.

34:06 And he was like, oh, oh, well, I don't know what your problem is.

34:09 And, you know, sort of, you know, went down that path with

34:11 her. Because JC also did speak in her

34:15 testimony around, and this goes to what happens a little bit

34:17 later on too, that Chris would quite regularly make nice drinks

34:21 for Lynn in the evening. And she said that that was to

34:23 sort of get Lynn a little bit drunk so that she might go to

34:26 bed early and then the two of them could go and have sex in

34:29 the house. I mean, that just blows my mind

34:32 that he would put it right in front of her in their own home

34:35 with their girls there with his wife next, you know, in another

34:38 room. That's just, Oh my God, next

34:39 level. The testimony of and this was

34:42 actually written in Lynn's mum Helena's diary around.

34:47 I'm probably getting a little bit ahead now but on the night

34:51 that we know was ended up being Lynn's last night in the house,

34:55 her mum phoned and they spoke on the phone and Lynn literally

34:59 said that to her mum said oh, Chris has just made me a nice

35:02 drink. And Helena said that she sounded

35:05 quite sozzled with the words. Yeah, which I love that word.

35:09 Yeah, me too. I think we were a bit sozzled on

35:10 the weekend. So yeah, we're sort of at the

35:14 point now where where Lynn does disappear.

35:18 Well, we can. Go, go back a little bit further

35:20 with that. Sorry.

35:21 So because he yeah, to the point where Chris did invite JC to

35:25 move in with them. And she did move in.

35:28 At first, Lynn was OK, like this girl.

35:30 And it was put to Lynn of, you know, like she needs help.

35:32 She needs to get out of where she is.

35:33 It was this, you know, like we're helping her.

35:36 And Lynn being the caring, kind person she was, allowed it to

35:38 happen. But it didn't sit well.

35:40 And she had spoken to others about it saying, I don't know,

35:42 there's something gut instinct wise telling me don't do this.

35:45 But you know the poor girl, well, she needs help.

35:48 So they did move her in, but then fairly fairly shortly after

35:52 that, Lynn put her foot down and went No, no, no, you know what?

35:55 I need her to to go and. So I think that was when Lynn

35:57 found them. Yeah, well, no.

35:58 So then she moved in with Paul. Yes.

36:00 And Marilyn down the road, down the road.

36:02 So it wasn't even like she went far, but but that's where this

36:04 manipulation between the two, the two brothers were.

36:06 I mean, Paul knew what was going on between the two of them.

36:09 So why that blows my mind that your brother is going to be like

36:14 yeah, sure. Let yeah, bring your your piece

36:16 on the side down to us and we'll move her into our house so you

36:19 can continue your affair with your 16 year old student to

36:24 boot. Yeah.

36:25 So just that just blows my mind. And sorry, Marilyn also, like,

36:28 surely, surely you knew what the fuck was going.

36:30 She knew. But at this point too, this was

36:33 around about then November 1981, Paul went in for a small

36:38 surgery. And so at this point even that

36:41 everyone was a little bit like what is going on between the two

36:43 of them. But Chris specifically said to

36:45 Lynn when he was having this procedure, he had to have spent

36:47 a couple of nights in afterwards and he'd said don't come in and

36:50 visit me. Like I'll be fine.

36:52 You just look after the kids and take care of what's going on

36:54 here. I'll be fine.

36:55 Don't come in and visit me. Which is weird, but Helena

36:59 thought, I'll go in and pop in and see him.

37:00 Obviously you need someone to take care of him a little bit.

37:03 And she walked into the hospital and walked in on JC sitting on

37:07 the bed in a very interesting way.

37:10 And she immediately went, this isn't right.

37:13 She and so I don't know that she said anything to Lynn at the

37:15 time, but she's spoken about it after the fact.

37:17 Definitely saying like it immediately gave her ick.

37:21 You know like feelings It was. Yeah, she was like.

37:24 I there's something going on here.

37:25 She wrote about that in her diary too and said I don't think

37:28 she did. Tell.

37:28 I don't yeah, I have a funny feeling she didn't tell Lynn

37:30 about it because at this point, obviously JC had moved out of

37:33 the home. She wasn't living in it anymore

37:35 at that point, but she was like, there's something going on.

37:37 But the fact that he'd orchestrated his little 16 year

37:40 old, yes student to come and see him more so than his wife when?

37:45 I mean, I know it wasn't a serious procedure, but no, no,

37:47 you know, he was still in hospital for a few nights.

37:49 It wasn't nothing. And any other spouse would.

37:51 Go and visit there going in, taking other some food or some

37:54 something you know that he needs or you know, spare another pair

37:57 of pyjamas. Clean pyjamas.

37:58 Few years old get out if I was in hospital and he didn't come

38:01 and visit. Me both, yeah.

38:03 No, a really weird situation to do.

38:06 So then obviously he'd orchestrated he one. 100% he

38:08 didn't want Lynn there because he wanted, he wanted JC, he

38:11 wanted to manipulate JC of like care for me, look after me.

38:14 Yeah, yeah, yeah. So then so obviously this is

38:18 where the two their their relationship obviously is

38:21 ramping up at this point of this, you know, leading up to

38:23 the end of 1981. So we get into sort of 19 to the

38:27 to the December right by December 23, yes, the two of

38:32 them twenty, yeah, sorry. December 23rd, yeah, the two of

38:35 them, JC and Chris get in the car.

38:39 Sorry. Prior to this, Chris had

38:42 actually gone to his other brother, not Paul, Peter, who is

38:45 a lawyer and definitely plays a big role later.

38:47 Yeah, he went to his brother and said, I think I went out of my

38:51 relationship, what would I do here?

38:54 And because there was this affair happening with JC

38:56 particularly, and Peter was aware of it, What the fuck is

38:59 going on with this family? They all know about this.

39:02 They're happy. To stop it, but they were

39:03 probably all doing the same thing.

39:05 With other girls as well. Oh, just gross.

39:07 So he warned Chris that at this point, if you were to leave

39:11 Lynn, you would be financially viable for that.

39:16 So which Chris is like, oh, I don't wanna be financially

39:18 viable. Like, you know, like I don't

39:19 wanna partner. What the fuck did he think was

39:21 gonna happen that he could just take away, walk away and take

39:24 everything? Like so he couldn't divorce her

39:26 because if he divorced her then he would have to pay her out

39:29 basically is what the issue was. So he's like, well, somehow here

39:32 I've got to stay married to her and like, like, I'm not gonna be

39:34 able to get out of this without unscathed and just have my sex

39:37 with my 16 year old student. So he decides, obviously then

39:43 he's got to somehow stay in this marriage.

39:44 Like so he decides to take the 16 year old off to Queensland.

39:48 So the two of them get in a car and drive to Queensland.

39:52 He left a note for Lynn which said basically don't speak too

39:56 poorly of me to the girls, which I, which is such an interesting

40:00 thing for him to have done. And Lynn didn't know really how

40:03 to take this. As in, does this mean you're

40:05 never coming back? Or does this mean you're coming

40:08 back but you're not? You know, you're coming around

40:11 and I'm but I shouldn't talk badly of you because, you know,

40:13 but you'll be involved. Or it didn't really state what

40:15 his plan was at. All he didn't actually have the

40:18 balls to say to her. I want to leave you.

40:20 No, because if he knew that he'd be if she turned around and

40:23 divorced him, he'd have to financially pay her out.

40:25 Yeah, so he wanted to do that. It's so ambiguous.

40:27 And Lynn, what? What would you do as a woman?

40:30 You've been left. You've got two young kids.

40:32 It's two days before Christmas. You'd be like, what?

40:35 What is going on? Like nothing was explained to

40:38 her. She had.

40:38 No. I mean, look, I feel like she

40:40 obviously knew there was something going on.

40:42 Yeah, yeah. But they hadn't discussed.

40:44 It no like she was very aware that their marriage was not in a

40:47 good place. She was she was trying her

40:48 hardest to keep it together. And yeah, because like, yeah,

40:51 she'd not only had she spoken to her work colleagues who she was

40:54 very close with and her neighbor who she was very close with

40:56 about it and wanted their advice, because she she actually

40:59 said I wanted to save my marriage.

41:01 I wanted to work at it. And, you know, you know, for the

41:05 sake the children were so young, they were four and two at this

41:07 point. Yeah.

41:08 And she wanted to keep their family unit together, so she was

41:12 seeking advice from people. Interestingly, just to note

41:15 that, I mean, yeah, she wanted to keep her marriage together,

41:17 all those sorts of things, but already at this point, work

41:19 colleagues had noticed bruises on her when she'd come into work

41:22 too. And when asked about it.

41:25 I fell. Fell over.

41:26 I. Tripped.

41:27 Tripped. The kids left their toys out and

41:29 I tripped. You know, like I.

41:30 Walked into a door. Yeah, yeah, which is just

41:33 tragic. So horrible.

41:35 So yeah, he's so Chris has taken this young 16 year old drive.

41:38 They're driving to Queensland. But JC already at this age was

41:43 like, this doesn't feel right. She was didn't feel comfortable

41:46 with as much as she didn't want to be in her family home.

41:49 She knew this wasn't right either.

41:52 So she started showing some, you know, I'm going to get out of

41:54 this and was really quite homesick.

41:56 I guess that, you know, sort of stuff that they ended up turning

41:58 around and coming back. They didn't even make it did.

42:02 They they never make it to Queensland, no.

42:04 However, in the meantime, Christmas Day went by.

42:07 Like Lynn, the poor thing, she's like, is he going to come home

42:10 and see the girls for Christmas Day?

42:11 Like what? Father doesn't want to at least

42:13 see his kids on Christmas Day? It's always been a big family

42:17 arrangement. You know, for them young kids.

42:19 Like that young, that is. The joy of Christmas is seeing

42:21 young. Children, no one wants to sat on

42:23 4 year old 2 year old at Christmas.

42:25 Jesus, no way. Oh, he's funny, but he.

42:28 Couldn't have given a shit. Yeah, no, clearly.

42:30 No, probably nothing. No way, No.

42:32 So I've had this major memory of my 2 year old Brody unwrapping a

42:36 Christmas present. And because he was such a little

42:38 pain like at that age, I, I'd wrapped up a, a potato like, and

42:43 I've got this video of him unwrapping and Brody Mason in

42:45 the background here and go, Brody got a potato, Brody got a

42:49 potato and he, Brody go, oh, potato, I got a potato.

42:52 I love chips. Oh God, so you couldn't even get

42:55 him on that he. Was so stoked.

42:58 Finally you knew. I know.

42:59 Saved yourself a fortune. He was just absolutely could

43:02 have just wrapped him all like potatoes would have been it for

43:04 the whole whole morning. Oh God, it's classic that video.

43:06 I'll show it to you one day Anyway, Yeah, 2 or 4 year olds

43:10 at Christmas are the best. So.

43:12 Yeah, so. Much fun.

43:13 So much so, yeah. So she was kind of hopeful that

43:17 he would appear. So she stayed home and didn't go

43:20 to her family or his family or anything for Christmas Day going

43:24 if he if he comes home, I want to be home.

43:26 I mean, what the loyal fucking wife?

43:29 Like she was desperate to keep this marriage together no matter

43:32 what, even knowing really what he was doing.

43:35 Yeah, I think she expected him to show.

43:37 Up. Yeah.

43:38 She really? Yeah.

43:40 Like, again, who would what kind of a father would miss their

43:42 children's Christmas Day? And she couldn't fathom that

43:45 thought. But he didn't show up and you

43:49 know, she missed out on Christmas with her, her family

43:52 and his. Family.

43:53 Yeah, And the girls missed out like, that's what hurts.

43:56 That's hurts. That's bad But yes, they did end

43:59 up rocking up though like eventually the two of them came

44:01 back. So this was sort of Yeah at a

44:03 point where JC then was like pulling away from the

44:06 relationship. She was not really as in it, I

44:09 think as much. Yeah, she was feeling she.

44:11 Wasn'tified the fact by this point that he was very

44:14 controlling. She had to do everything, he

44:16 said. She has said that she didn't

44:18 want to go to Queensland and that was his idea and she went

44:22 against her will basically. But he told her they had to do

44:26 it because, you know, he obviously felt like that was a

44:29 way to head away or whatever. It is how he could get what he

44:32 wanted. So this poor, again vulnerable

44:36 girl is stuck in this controlling relationship and she

44:40 doesn't really have anywhere to go.

44:42 Her parents are, or her mum in particular is not, you know,

44:46 she's not a safe place for her to fall.

44:50 And what, she's gonna go back to Paul and Marilyn or Marilyn?

44:56 Yeah. Honestly, no.

44:57 Like that was just so fucking toxic.

44:59 Yeah. So what?

45:01 She to do she was stuck. Yeah, absolutely, completely

45:03 stuck. So in the new year she does go

45:05 away with her her group of friends.

45:08 It was because they were graduating so she so this time

45:10 she was in 17 I think so they they've graduated from high

45:13 school and the as they as traditionally as we do when we

45:16 finished grams year 12 in in Australia go off on on your week

45:20 of holiday schoolies. This is like probably pre the

45:23 big schoolies. Obviously the people wouldn't

45:25 do, but have. Been the biggest toolies you've

45:27 ever. Oh absolutely, they'd love a

45:29 good schoolies. I mean, Gee, it's free for all.

45:33 Gross. Yeah.

45:35 So she went away with her school friends, like to a caravan park

45:37 and they were having a nice time.

45:39 But he was she made, he made sure he had.

45:42 She had to ring him every day and contact him, which I mean,

45:46 at this day, obviously, no, no mobile phones.

45:48 It's her finding a payphone and calling her 32 year old

45:51 boyfriend like on the side that she's not telling her friends

45:54 about like he was. Also jealous of the other boys.

45:57 Oh yes, the trolley boy. Like that's in the trial.

46:00 I mean that poor jealous, yeah. And he made this kids life hell

46:05 yeah just because he was friends with JC.

46:07 There was nothing going on. Between he apparently like was

46:09 like what? He was keen on it.

46:10 For sure, but there was nothing going on.

46:12 No, like it was very innocent. The way he would even ask her

46:14 out was kind of like, Oh yeah, I'll see you at the dance maybe.

46:17 Or, you know, he was trying to like little bits here and there,

46:20 like, but not forcefully at all. I mean, what a nice young kid.

46:23 Imagine if that had been her first relationship instead of

46:26 this douchebag like her life would have.

46:29 Been so different knew at that point she couldn't have gone

46:31 there because she already knew the type of person that this was

46:35 yeah the thought of that obviously she couldn't even go

46:37 there no. So how sad's that 17 year old

46:39 girl can't even have a fling with someone her?

46:41 Own age? Yeah, it's exactly someone her

46:43 own age. Like crazy.

46:45 Horrible, horrible. Poor girl.

46:47 Absolutely. Yeah.

46:48 So I think at this point, like, Paul's feeling a little bit like

46:51 he hasn't got control of her enough.

46:53 Like, so you mean Chris? Sorry, Chris.

46:55 Sorry, Chris. Yeah.

46:56 Chris hasn't got the control of her that he wants because she is

46:59 showing signs of wanting to pull away.

47:02 So obviously he's a little bit, you know, unsettled by that, I

47:06 think. So this is where we get to sort

47:07 of that early January time frame where unfortunately Lynn

47:12 disappears. Yeah, so the night before, as I

47:15 mentioned earlier, the night before she'd spoken to her mom,

47:19 Helena on the phone and she'd said, Chris has mixed me a

47:22 lovely drink and you know, she was gonna go to bed.

47:26 And they actually made arrangements to meet the

47:28 following morning at. They had actually been to a

47:31 marriage counsellor that day as well.

47:33 Absolutely sorry. You're absolutely right.

47:35 Because so Lynn was feeling like, oh, we're making progress

47:38 here to get things back on track now that he's come back from

47:41 this little trip he's been on. And we've got, he agreed to go

47:44 to marriage counselling when he came home because obviously

47:46 there was something wrong in the marriage.

47:47 Like they they they had to both acknowledge it at that point.

47:50 Yeah. So he did agree to go to

47:51 marriage counselling. So they'd gone and done their

47:53 first session at marriage counselling on the 8th of

47:56 January. And yeah.

47:58 And Lynn was like, he showed up, he was there, we did that.

48:01 We're gonna we're gonna be on the track now to get him down.

48:04 Lynn left to work after that session.

48:06 And she said to her work colleagues that, you know, they

48:08 were holding hands in the elevator on the way down, like

48:11 after the session. And, you know, she felt so

48:14 confident that things were gonna get back on track.

48:16 They'd made an appointment to do another counseling session.

48:19 And Lynn was so heartened by the fact that he was willing to do

48:23 that. So we get to the night of the

48:25 8th and the drink and the phone call to to Lynn's mum.

48:29 And they'd arranged to meet the next morning at the swimming

48:33 pool, the local swimming. Pool.

48:35 Well, Chris worked as a lifeguard part time.

48:38 Yep, Yep. And because there's no mobile

48:41 phones back then and you know, you like, OK, well, I'll meet

48:44 you at the whatever the baths that at 9:00 AM or whatever it

48:48 was, I can't remember the exact time.

48:50 And Helena was like, Yep, no worries.

48:52 And Helena drove. So she drove herself there.

48:55 And when Helena gets there that morning, all she finds is Chris

49:00 and the 2 girls. And no.

49:02 She's like, where's Lynn? Where's?

49:04 Lynn, he dropped her. He said he dropped her at the

49:07 the bus stop that morning and that she was heading off to do

49:10 some shopping. And then so he was, as I said,

49:13 he was working at the bars, but I think it was pretty casual

49:16 kind of style work. Like it wasn't like he was, you

49:19 know, busy, busy, busy. He was, you know, obviously

49:21 looking after his girls at the same time as working and keeping

49:24 an eye on other swimmers in the pool, being fit, healthy man.

49:27 He was well thought of it again at this place to be someone on

49:32 on deck, to be on hand if someone was in a bit of trouble.

49:36 But the phone, apparently a phone call came in and there's

49:39 conjecture around this phone call and who called him to the

49:43 phone or if anyone did or if he just decided that he had had a

49:46 phone call. But he ended up going to Helena

49:49 and saying to her that was Lynn on the phone.

49:52 She's just told me that she'd like to spend some a couple of

49:55 nights away just to get her head right and need some time.

49:59 And even Helena was like, what? But that doesn't sound like

50:04 Lynn, but OK. And so in the end, Helena took

50:09 the 2 girls back to her place with her because Chris was

50:12 working. And obviously Lynn's gone away

50:15 for a couple of days, needing some time for herself.

50:17 Having not spoken to her mom who like she spoke to about

50:19 everything and like sort of stuff is.

50:21 They were very close, yeah. They were a very tight knit

50:24 family, Yeah. The Sims family, yeah.

50:26 So imagine how Helena must have felt like.

50:29 I think in that moment you'd be like, you'd be almost a bit.

50:32 Bamboozled because it's absolutely.

50:34 Character for Lynn but then Chris has said I've just spoken

50:37 to her so like what reason does he really have?

50:39 To you could only believe him in that moment.

50:42 I mean, and she's had obviously this little incident where she's

50:45 like, I think there's something going between this young girl

50:47 and him. And look back in that day, she

50:51 would have been blaming the young girl more than she was

50:53 him. Which is.

50:55 She says she says she loved Chris.

50:58 She. Loves they all thought he was

51:00 amazing. Amazing.

51:00 Yeah, so this is the problem I really with our lens on it from

51:06 a 2025 lens of how we see this that poor girls being totally

51:10 manipulated completely groomed 100% but back then that was the

51:16 girl was the one who was pushing it onto the man, the man like

51:18 kind of thing. So she her her take on this

51:21 would not be like, you know, hang on that shithead has done

51:23 something here. I know because he's been having

51:25 it off with this 16 year old. Her, her frame of mind at the

51:29 time would have been like, well, what?

51:30 What else would I think to think here other than Chris is telling

51:32 me the truth? Yeah, yeah.

51:35 Which God? That's it.

51:37 So awful. The Monday morning comes around

51:39 and Chris rings in sick for Lynn to her work and says, oh, she's

51:43 gone away. I don't know when she's going to

51:44 be back, but she won't be in this week.

51:46 Yeah, her colleagues. Yeah, so he admits that she'll

51:49 be in for the whole week. Yeah.

51:51 And her colleagues are bamboozled.

51:53 They're like, OK, like that. That is not like Lynn at all.

51:57 You know, she was so dedicated to work, loved her work.

52:00 You know, she she never missed a shift.

52:02 She never didn't show up nice, especially for Chris to call in

52:06 for her. Like it was all a bit strange.

52:09 Sue Strath, her colleague even said, like, right from the get

52:11 go, she had a bad feeling. She.

52:13 But she said the first couple of days, OK, Lynn might be sick in

52:16 bed. It happens to the best of us.

52:18 You know, that's fine. But it was a few days after

52:20 that, she was like, something doesn't seem right here.

52:22 She'd ring the house. Yeah.

52:25 And the day no one would answer. And.

52:26 Sue had actually already noted too that as much as we said

52:31 earlier that Lynn had shown up to work with bruises that Sue

52:34 Strath had seen on the 8th of January, as much as she came in

52:37 that day talking, you know, positively about their marriage

52:40 and this counselling session that they'd had, she did also

52:43 notice bruises and probably more, even more so than

52:47 previously. Yeah, so she actually noticed

52:50 bruises in different places. So she'd noticed, like, bruising

52:53 on her arms, like she'd been grabbed on her arm.

52:55 And so, you know, to Sue, I think she noted an escalation in

53:00 what she'd previously seen, which obviously was in the back

53:05 of her mind and made her think very differently about the

53:09 events that sort of subsequently took place.

53:12 Yeah. It wasn't until six weeks after

53:15 Lynn went missing that Chris reported her as such after

53:20 Helena begged begged him to why she didn't report when missing.

53:26 I'm not. Really, again, I think it's a

53:27 sign of the time as in like, you know, that was her husband's

53:31 job. Like, you know, that that I

53:33 think that I think that's what would have been playing out

53:36 there for her. I mean, I think this day and age

53:37 100% her, you know, family would have been at that down that

53:40 police station far sooner just going no, fuck you, mate, we're

53:43 reporting her missing. I think that that's like.

53:46 A contextual. Yeah, I do.

53:48 I think that's a bit of a like, you know, oh, that we don't want

53:50 to imply in their in their relationship and their it's they

53:54 would be a bit further staying back of like, I think they would

53:56 have been like going this is not feeling right, but it's up to

53:59 him. He needs to deal with that.

54:00 That's his family. We're not her family.

54:02 Now that's a. Really long time not.

54:05 To because it was the 15th, the 18th of Feb, wasn't it that he

54:08 reported her missing? Yeah, so between the 8th, so 8th

54:11 of January's of last time anyone knows that was notably I've seen

54:14 her. In 1982. 82 And then February

54:17 18th, he finally went down to the police station and reported

54:20 her missing. And he reported her missing.

54:23 So what did I say? I wrote notes on that.

54:26 Like he what he said to the police, too, was that it was

54:30 just incredible. The words were that he he said

54:33 she had, they'd had an argument and things and that she had had

54:36 a breakdown the night before, but she'd apologized for that

54:42 and it was all good. Like what a narcissist to make

54:46 sure he let people know that. Oh, but she, she accepted full

54:48 responsibility. He was wrong.

54:49 She did it, did wrong by me and she's apologized for it.

54:53 It was all her. Oh.

54:55 God. He also suggested that maybe

54:57 she'd joined a religious cult. So which, I mean, that's come

55:01 out of nowhere in terms of coming from, oh, she's gone away

55:04 for a couple of nights to just, you know, clear her head to now.

55:07 Oh, yeah. She mentioned something about

55:08 joining a religious cult which. Like.

55:11 What the fuck? I'm seriously doing.

55:14 Especially when she wasn't an overly religious woman.

55:16 It wasn't like they were involved in things like that.

55:18 And there was no evidence of that whatsoever.

55:22 Absolutely crazy thoughts in terms of that, yeah.

55:27 Seriously. But unfortunately being reported

55:31 missing though even in on February 18th, it really didn't

55:34 spark much of A investigation by the police.

55:38 They weren't overly interested to like follow things up in

55:42 concern because they took his word because he was such a good

55:45 bloke also. The because he's reported her

55:49 missing in the, you know, the local police station.

55:52 Yeah, the local police and the rugby team and the school and

55:57 everyone, they all look very small and insular community.

56:02 So the cops knew Chris and Paul and idolize them and thought

56:05 they were amazing because they were ex Newcastle Jets players

56:08 and we're just, you know, top blokes.

56:12 And so they accepted Chris's story at face value.

56:17 They didn't do any. I think the only thing they

56:19 really investigated was whether her bank card had been used.

56:23 Yeah, well, do you get used a couple of times after she left?

56:26 Yes, yeah, but to no like to no lead no.

56:31 And then also they checked to see if she'd used her Medicare

56:34 card, which she hadn't so. And that was it So what?

56:38 What? OK right.

56:41 So we've got a woman who we don't know where she is, but

56:43 then so Chris's brother-in-law. So on his side.

56:50 No, sorry. How did it work?

56:53 I think it was so Chris's brother Paul, his wife Marilyn.

56:58 Marilyn, her brother. Right.

57:01 So claims yeah, he saw Lynn at a bus stop.

57:04 Yes. A couple of months after she

57:07 went. Missing There were a number of

57:08 sightings from people who knew her or didn't know her at all.

57:12 There were some sightings that would have been mentioned, but

57:15 the. Fact that this guy was semi sort

57:17 of related to her they. Took it quite seriously to kind

57:20 of go, well, he'd know if it was her or not.

57:22 And he said he saw her getting on a bus that was headed north.

57:28 And they just kind of went, oh, OK, cool, cool, cool.

57:32 Yeah, she totally just leave those young children and never

57:36 return. Without a note, without a, she

57:39 didn't take any personal possession.

57:41 No. No jewelry?

57:42 No. Clothes to wake up.

57:45 Two days after Lynn went missing, JC is moving into the

57:49 family home permanently, immediately into Lynn's bed.

57:54 And her clothes. I was going to say, she was then

57:56 wearing all of Lynn's jewelry, all of Lynn's clothes.

57:59 She was. She assumed the role of mother

58:02 to the two children. Which she was not equipped.

58:06 For not at all. This was a 17 year old girl.

58:11 I mean babysitting at 17 for a few hours?

58:13 Cool. But what kind of balls do you

58:15 have as Chris to do that without?

58:18 Like I'm sorry but as the community was not anyone going

58:24 hey what the fuck. The neighbor, So the next door

58:28 neighbor, who was, was she like diagonally behind them I think?

58:32 Right. Yes.

58:32 So she she and Lynn were really close and Lynn would say things

58:37 to her about JC when JC was living there or coming to

58:41 babysit the girls. And the neighbour's like, you

58:44 know, she sunbathes topless outside and Chris is around when

58:48 she's sunbathing topless outside.

58:50 And so that neighbor was then like, Oh well.

58:54 I she sees here all the time now.

58:56 Yeah, she thought that was weird and thought that needed to be

59:00 reported. I don't know that she reported

59:02 that to police until all this actually came out.

59:04 No, because again, it's that whole like, oh, it's none of my

59:06 business. Like that that mentality of that

59:08 era. I think she did and she regrets

59:11 it, I believe now and said, you know, like she was.

59:13 I was like, no, it's not really my place to say anything.

59:15 Yeah. And because the police didn't go

59:16 to her, like if they had gone to her and and knocked on her door

59:19 as an abus was saying, do you know anything about what was

59:21 going on over here? You say anything She would have,

59:24 she sort of has said I would have said it.

59:26 But because they never came to her and asked her, she didn't go

59:29 seeking out the police to say, hey, I've got information here

59:32 because she just didn't think that it was relevant or, you

59:35 know, or needed. To be involved, relevant because

59:38 I think she wanted to say something, but I think you're

59:43 right in that in that era she just, I don't know, kept minded

59:48 her own business. Yeah.

59:50 But she and Lynn were really good friends.

59:52 Like they used to catch up for coffee several times a week.

59:54 They'd go to each others houses. Yeah.

59:56 Had kids who were similar ish ages and the kids had played

59:59 together and that she was the one who told.

1:00:02 Lynn about JC in the backyard and JC being around the girls

1:00:07 all the time and things that Lynn didn't necessarily know,

1:00:11 like JC being at the house when Lynn didn't even know she was

1:00:14 meant to be there, stuff like that.

1:00:15 So this neighbor didn't know enough.

1:00:17 I mean, you know what it's like as your neighbor, like, you

1:00:19 know, you look out the front window and well, who does my

1:00:22 name? So what?

1:00:23 Well, my neighbor, because, you know.

1:00:24 Everything that goes on in this street.

1:00:26 Oh, yeah. But well, that's thanks to my

1:00:29 well, I'm actually not bad for it either.

1:00:31 But my neighbor across the region sometimes will say to me,

1:00:33 she's like, oh, who is at your house today?

1:00:34 This car was that. I love it yeah.

1:00:41 So, you know, you just know the comings and goings in your in

1:00:44 your neighborhood or Yeah, especially with your immediate

1:00:46 neighbors, you just get to know people's patterns and stuff.

1:00:48 Exactly. And yeah, it just never

1:00:51 eventuated to anything. And I think that is so tragic

1:00:54 and so sad because something may, would it have?

1:00:57 I don't know. I guess we don't know what would

1:01:00 have happened had she been able to report.

1:01:02 Unfortunately, I think that the police and that just, they did

1:01:05 without being like, you know, Oh yeah, we'll protect you mate.

1:01:08 It was more of a fact of like, oh, we just think he's so great.

1:01:11 He wouldn't have done anything. I wouldn't even, I don't think

1:01:14 they even their brains even went to the thought of what if, oh,

1:01:17 maybe the husband did this because they were like, but it's

1:01:20 Chris Dawson. He's a top bloke.

1:01:23 But also his brother, his brother gave him an alibi for

1:01:28 the night. So his brother's like, Oh no, he

1:01:30 was at my place. Was he?

1:01:33 Don't think so. Maybe for part of the night.

1:01:35 Maybe after him, I don't know. Yep.

1:01:37 And they both moved over. Maybe they moved over.

1:01:41 That's my opinion. Yeah.

1:01:43 So it's, it's fascinating. Oh, absolutely fascinating.

1:01:48 The fact that I mean, as you said, if this happened today,

1:01:51 there is no chance in hell he would have gotten away with.

1:01:55 No way he could have moved her in that quickly without people

1:01:57 going eh? Yeah, yeah.

1:01:59 No, this is. Not cool.

1:02:00 There's totally going something going on because it didn't take

1:02:02 long in terms of like, as you say, she literally moved in

1:02:05 there as like, you know, as the new Lynn and was wearing her

1:02:08 clothes, all that sort of stuff. He very quickly really, I mean,

1:02:11 she disappeared and obviously nothing heard of her again that

1:02:14 by 1983, he filed for divorce from Lynn and claimed

1:02:19 abandonment. He also in that claimed that the

1:02:24 reason for the breakdown of their marriage was her

1:02:27 overspending. Yeah, he said.

1:02:29 A frivolous. Spending overuse of bank card or

1:02:32 something like that was what was that there's.

1:02:34 No evidence of whatsoever. Well.

1:02:36 Her friends all say Lynn was actually quite tight.

1:02:38 Frugal. Quite frugal.

1:02:39 Like tights, probably. Horrible.

1:02:41 She was quite frugal. Yeah.

1:02:42 She she made clothes for the girls she like.

1:02:46 She wasn't a big spender. And they had money.

1:02:48 Yeah. Like they were, he was working

1:02:50 so many jobs like and she was working and.

1:02:53 He'd had the money from when he was playing like.

1:02:55 Rugby. Rugby, which I think was very

1:02:57 lucrative for him and and then he had sponsorships, he had lots

1:03:00 of other things. He had lots of different jobs.

1:03:02 Lynn was working pretty much full time, I think.

1:03:05 Yeah, yeah. So they they weren't short of a

1:03:08 buck, no. And they lived in a beautiful.

1:03:10 Home they did. Really beautiful home.

1:03:12 Yeah, they built had a swimming pool and it was big.

1:03:15 Yeah, They were not living, you know, tightly.

1:03:18 Like they didn't need to live tightly.

1:03:19 But there was no evidence of her overspending in terms of their

1:03:22 bank account. So it like literally could look

1:03:24 at it and go, well, yeah, she was spending money on things she

1:03:26 needed. Like other than that, there was

1:03:28 nothing like she wasn't going down to the I don't even know,

1:03:30 Louis Vuitton and buying handbags or, you know, like, you

1:03:33 know, there was none of nothing for it.

1:03:35 But yes, what an A hole. So then like again, blame her

1:03:39 for the breakdown of any of the marriage.

1:03:41 Yes. And yes, there was breakdown of

1:03:42 marriage prior to this, but you know, it wasn't to that point

1:03:45 until he murdered her. Well, this is the thing, right?

1:03:48 This goes to motive because he needed to get out of the

1:03:52 marriage because he obviously decided that he wanted JC and

1:03:56 that she was going to come into the house and replace Lynn and

1:04:00 do all of the things that Lynn used to do.

1:04:02 Ha ha. Jokes on him.

1:04:03 That didn't quite happen. But as in the way he thought it

1:04:07 was going to. But the reason that he wanted to

1:04:12 get this divorce finalized and through, it's because all he

1:04:15 wanted to do was marry JC. Yeah.

1:04:17 And have her come in and replace Lyn essentially, which I don't.

1:04:21 Get in a lot of ways, I, I, I don't know what.

1:04:23 But like, why are you replacing one with another?

1:04:26 Like, if you want a different life, you want a different life,

1:04:28 but your life isn't going to change significantly.

1:04:31 So this is the thing I I about affairs and that kind of thing,

1:04:34 right. In the first instance, I'm sure

1:04:36 an affair is exciting and different.

1:04:39 And, you know, everyone's feeling all of the feelings at

1:04:41 the end of the day. You're still going to get

1:04:43 annoyed when they breathe at night, you know, and when they,

1:04:49 I don't know, slurp their soup or whatever it is that irritates

1:04:52 you. Yeah.

1:04:52 You know at when you live with someone and you get beyond that

1:04:56 initial sparkly part of your relationship.

1:04:59 She's not going to stay 16 forever.

1:05:02 Well, no. So what he did he expect was

1:05:06 going to happen, that he was going to have this completely

1:05:07 different life. No, you've still got the

1:05:10 responsibility of two young children.

1:05:11 Yeah, you're actually putting the responsibility of care for

1:05:15 those children onto a teenager who's ill equipped to deal with

1:05:18 it. So that Chanel and Sharon have

1:05:22 come out and said, you know, she wasn't a great mum to them.

1:05:26 She was pretty, not pretty, not good.

1:05:29 Which again, I go back to, I don't blame her for that.

1:05:32 They were not her kids. She was a kid herself.

1:05:35 Well, they say that she was good up until Chris.

1:05:39 She and Chris had their own child together.

1:05:41 Yeah. So she was actually fine when it

1:05:43 was just the two of them. And I guess that would have been

1:05:45 very much in the infancy of all of this as well.

1:05:48 Yeah. She was their babysitter and

1:05:49 babysitters. They're fun, yeah.

1:05:51 The kids generally love their babysitters.

1:05:53 And, yeah, you know, when it becomes an actual, you know,

1:05:56 role that you have to do and like, that's, that's that's a

1:06:00 step. Parenting is difficult at the

1:06:01 best of times. I can't imagine like, you know,

1:06:04 yeah, embracing someone else's children as your own or That is

1:06:07 really hard. And she's 17.

1:06:10 Yeah. You shouldn't have the mental

1:06:11 capacity for it at all. And that's, again, it's not her

1:06:14 fault. But in this era, there was this

1:06:16 idea of her now being an adult at that point somehow, that she

1:06:20 had brain functionality of someone who could cope with

1:06:23 that. She'd had a traumatic childhood

1:06:25 herself, like. Which hadn't been dealt.

1:06:27 With she just jumped, not at. All into another which

1:06:29 dysfunctional relationship pulses.

1:06:30 Me the way he basically manipulated her into having sex

1:06:34 with him was exactly that of like he was going to fix her

1:06:37 trauma by doing having sex with her.

1:06:41 Oh, yeah, in so in their, I think it was like, well, if not

1:06:44 their first sexual encounter, I think pretty sure that's how she

1:06:48 described their first sexual encounter.

1:06:49 He was like, yeah, this is going to fix this is going to help you

1:06:52 get over your trauma by us doing this.

1:06:54 And he and then at the end of it, he thanked her, and she had

1:06:59 to thank him for doing that for her.

1:07:01 Oh my God, yeah, so gross that is.

1:07:05 Horrible. Hearing her speak about that and

1:07:07 her testimony is really heart wrenching, Yeah.

1:07:11 That's that's horrific. And that's the grossest of

1:07:14 grooming ever. Like what?

1:07:17 A piece? Of shit.

1:07:17 Oh my God, what a total piece of shit.

1:07:19 Oh, that poor girl. Yeah.

1:07:21 And I just, it flaws me that then there's this, there were

1:07:24 people at this time and there's potentially people in this time

1:07:28 who have an opinion of her as if she has done the wrong thing.

1:07:32 I just can't. But we'll get to that in terms

1:07:35 of the the trial and things going on, yeah.

1:07:38 So they've gotten married, and then they have conceived their

1:07:42 own daughter. So they got married in 1984, so

1:07:45 it didn't take long and they just had a ceremony in their

1:07:47 backyard with Paul and Marilyn as the witnesses.

1:07:51 Which, again, I just fucking can't.

1:07:52 Handle. I can't even.

1:07:54 But, you know, he's also now robbed JC of that, you know, of

1:07:59 a, of a wedding and the celebration that goes with that,

1:08:02 the family that goes with that. Yeah, all of it.

1:08:05 And he's just been like, well, no, I'm marrying you.

1:08:07 And we're doing this in the backyard because he had to keep

1:08:10 it hidden. Again, because he was just don't

1:08:12 have relationships. They take prisoners.

1:08:16 And he absolutely did that with her.

1:08:18 They've then gone on to have a daughter of their own, and

1:08:22 Chanel and Sharon say that this was really in their minds when

1:08:27 things started to change in their relationship with JC.

1:08:30 But I think ultimately it was a change in Chris and her

1:08:33 relationship too, because from what she says, that's when it

1:08:37 became more violent with her directly.

1:08:40 Because I think at that point with her having a baby, she now

1:08:43 becomes no longer like it's almost like it's not, not that

1:08:47 she was, she was already not a virgin kind of stuff with him

1:08:49 that that's that's been and gone well and truly.

1:08:51 But I think it kind of made her, she's now a mother.

1:08:54 She's not a young hot 16 year old like it for him.

1:08:57 I think that changed his opinion of her.

1:09:00 Now that you're a mother, you're not.

1:09:01 You're not useful to me. She describes that as in JC

1:09:05 describes that this is the point in their relationship as well

1:09:08 where the physical abuse started.

1:09:10 Yeah, not long after the birth of their child.

1:09:12 So I think you're absolutely right in saying that he it

1:09:15 something shifted in him, obviously.

1:09:17 Yeah, he got what he wanted. And he was just then repeating

1:09:21 the same pattern that he had with Lynn.

1:09:23 Yeah. And she certainly expressed that

1:09:25 she felt that it could end up where it did with Lynn that she

1:09:30 thought because, I mean, she always had thoughts of like that

1:09:32 did he do something to Lynn and hurt her?

1:09:34 I don't think. She, by the time they ended that

1:09:37 she ended their relationship, that she was 100% convinced he'd

1:09:41 killed her. But she'd had the inkling about

1:09:44 that from the day Lynn went missing because you know, the

1:09:48 drink situation the night before.

1:09:52 She, she just knew, she, she knew there was something going

1:09:54 on. The fact that she was in the

1:09:55 bed, in the marital bed two days later, he knew Lynn wasn't

1:09:58 coming back. Of course he did.

1:09:59 He wouldn't. Have moved her in there if he

1:10:01 thought she was going to turn up the next day potentially like

1:10:04 no. So, you know, she, she said she

1:10:07 knew, but what was, you know, she was so young, what would she

1:10:09 do about it? She was scared.

1:10:11 Yeah. Oh yeah.

1:10:12 No, there's no life experience that teaches you how to handle

1:10:16 that. Nowhere to go.

1:10:17 She didn't have her family that she could turn to and say hey

1:10:20 I'm not in a good place here. I need help to get out and her

1:10:22 SO. Like their biggest issues were

1:10:24 probably like, I've got to save money to buy a car.

1:10:27 Yeah. Or, you know, am I going to go

1:10:28 to university or am I going to go and get a job?

1:10:30 You know, that was probably their biggest dilemma.

1:10:32 Yes. Yeah.

1:10:33 And I think the affluent nature of the people who lived in those

1:10:37 areas meant that, you know, fiscally she was behind the 8

1:10:41 ball as well because her family didn't come from money.

1:10:44 She didn't have the financial backing that a lot of her

1:10:47 friends had as well. So she really was just out on

1:10:50 her own by absolutely he isolated her.

1:10:52 He knew. That he could do that.

1:10:53 Yeah, he'd done exactly what he planned to do.

1:10:55 You know, he, he had her on his own and he had her where he

1:11:00 wanted her to be. Exactly.

1:11:02 Yeah. So not by 1990 the two

1:11:04 separated. Like, I'm good on her.

1:11:06 She found a way out. I don't think he was overly

1:11:08 happy about that, but at the same time he didn't really want

1:11:12 her in the same way anymore either.

1:11:14 So yeah, 1990 they were separated and that was the end

1:11:19 of that marriage. But obviously she had, she's

1:11:22 still had a daughter with him. So there was ending the marriage

1:11:25 doesn't exactly end the relationship either.

1:11:27 So. But I don't know that he was

1:11:28 that interested in in the child. I don't believe so.

1:11:31 I don't know how much contact he had.

1:11:33 I don't think, I don't think it was 0 contact, but I don't think

1:11:36 it was a lot. But she moved away as well, so

1:11:40 she needed, obviously needed the space.

1:11:42 Yeah. And by that time, like obviously

1:11:43 JC had, she'd grown up and was finally, I guess clearly in her

1:11:48 mind, understanding what had happened to her far more and

1:11:51 being able to. Because up until this point,

1:11:53 yeah, she's been a child and she.

1:11:54 Wasn't even 30 yet when they happened this.

1:11:56 Is it? I know this is it, She's her

1:11:58 brain's finally at 25, developed enough to say hang on a second,

1:12:04 I'm right in what I'm thinking as I've felt sick about this the

1:12:07 whole time but haven't been able to articulate that or understand

1:12:10 that for myself. And now I do understand it and I

1:12:13 need to get out of it. She also said that the threat

1:12:16 against her was getting greater and greater, and that was the

1:12:19 thing that ultimately made her leave and flee.

1:12:22 Essentially, he threatened her life.

1:12:25 She did go to the police when she left.

1:12:26 That was really how she she got out.

1:12:28 Yeah, yeah. She had to go and report things

1:12:31 and she did, which we will get to next week.

1:12:34 I think this is probably a good spot to leave it.

1:12:36 Yeah, I think that's probably there.

1:12:38 We sort of move on to the next phase of this because at this

1:12:40 point in terms of Lynn's even up until this 1990 point, there's

1:12:43 been really no movement in the in her disappearance and the

1:12:49 investigation of that. It's like people have just

1:12:52 forgotten that it even happened and have all moved on aside from

1:12:55 Lynn's family and her friends who are trying, trying so hard

1:13:00 to, to get the case or to have a found.

1:13:03 Like, you know, her mum would hear of a sighting or something

1:13:08 and go and try and find her. Like it's just horrific.

1:13:11 It's I can't, I can't imagine what her family went through.

1:13:15 No, absolutely. Like it would just be awful.

1:13:18 Like it's. That ambiguous loss that again,

1:13:19 we've spoken about this in previous episodes, it's loss of

1:13:22 a person when you don't actually know what's happened.

1:13:24 So do you grieve her because you think she's deceased?

1:13:28 Do you do you like hold out hope that she's going to be found and

1:13:33 you're going to see her again and it's all going to be happy

1:13:35 families like the ambiguous loss is is almost impossible for a

1:13:39 human to process. Absolutely, because.

1:13:42 We need finality, we need to be able to close things off in our

1:13:46 mind no matter what has happened.

1:13:49 Her family had none of that, no, and her mum passed away not

1:13:52 knowing any of it. That's really awful.

1:13:54 It's horrible. It should just go.

1:13:56 The only thing that did occur within the investigation was in

1:13:58 1984 there was an inquest into her death and in the inquest it

1:14:04 was found that it was that she was likely murdered and by

1:14:08 someone that knew her. However, the DPP decided that

1:14:12 they didn't have enough evidence to prosecute anyone.

1:14:15 So that had occurred. And I think that that also made

1:14:17 it feel like that was sort of around that time they got

1:14:19 married as well. I think that it was all like,

1:14:22 see, that's all done and dusted now.

1:14:24 No ones being arrested, no ones being charged with this.

1:14:29 He he thought he was in the clear.

1:14:30 Yeah. And then not long after that, I

1:14:33 think, yeah, there was another sighting of her.

1:14:35 Yeah. They say that she ran it.

1:14:37 Someone said that they saw her on TV in the motorcade of

1:14:41 Charles and Diana's wedding and that she ran across, like in

1:14:45 front of the motorcade. And that was her, of course.

1:14:49 I mean, obviously it obviously wasn't.

1:14:51 But, you know, there was a lot out there that people were like,

1:14:54 oh, well, could it be? Could it be?

1:14:55 And yeah, we'll get to it next week.

1:14:59 We all know, obviously that it it wasn't.

1:15:01 No. All right, well, good.

1:15:03 Thank you for joining us for another episode.

1:15:06 Stay tuned next week for Part 2 where we get to sort of the

1:15:09 investigation and then the trial that that came of it.

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1:16:06 At least we remembered to turn Audacity on and clap so.

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1:16:14 Same, same. We'll be right, OK.