Episode 45 - Lynette Simms (Dawson) and Chris Dawson (The Teachers Pet Case) Part 1

0:15 Welcome to another episode of Two Crime Besties, everybody. Hi everyone. Episode 45 Meg. I know we're just saying that's insane. When Elliot like a year. Yeah, yeah. It's so close. It is. We've got it. And we'll just say we have to really think about what's gonna be Episode 50. Yeah. Can you guys give us some suggestions of what you might like for our 50th episode? I feel like it's a good milestone to celebrate. So like which way do we go? Do we go a celebrity type case? Where do we go? Give us some suggestions.

0:42 Yeah. And we've like, I was really saying like in, I think you actually mentioned it in your little mini EP that you let us know we weren't coming back for a couple of weeks. We're saying we've got to 50,000 plays and we're pretty much at 60,000 already. It's just insane. Sorry. It's crazy, crazy. Yeah, we really seeing the numbers climb and climb. So thanks to everybody who for joining. Actually, I think you said at the beginning of this year like we could make 50,000 plays by the end of the year.

1:08 I think I said 100,000 by the. End. No, I think originally you said 50 and then God, I think it was when we went, no, wait, hang on. You actually get to 50. Yeah, yeah, to 100. Oh God, I'm doing it again. Short changing us again. Just on that note though, we have had so much engagement on our socials lately. In particular, we're getting like some inbox messages through Spotify especially. Yeah. And then we've had so many Instagram DMS and comments on on posts and stuff that we're doing. So thank you to everybody who's commenting, posting.

1:43 We do try to get back to everyone, but I just had a shout out for for a few of our besties today. Love it. So Josie, Sabrina and Lauren, thank you so much for contacting us. Lauren contacted us saying that she only just realised that we're actually called 2 crime besties, not true crime besties. So obviously our Annunciation needs to be worked on. So we'll take that feedback on board. Thanks, Lauren. I remember us recording our original like intro episode. I remember the two of us like going I know we have to do again.

2:13 Did you just say 2 or true? I don't know what did I say and. Then we were like, why have we done this to ourselves? Like we chose this name and we're we're getting tongue tied saying I still sometimes get tongue tied saying it now. I'm certain when I do the it's actually don't even notice it until I actually go to edit and I'm like Dick an idiot and it's both of us. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And you just, I don't know, it just rolls off the tongue. It does. Well, we'll answer to either. But there's a reason why we went with the 2 Chrome besties we could probably we've never shared the reason of the two like big thing and like yeah.

2:45 We could, we could. So we originally were gonna start a different type. So we've always thought we, you know, what it takes to be podcasters, Pat, on our own back. Oh, yeah, yeah. And so before we even, you know, got to this, we're obviously brainstorming ideas. And I'd say for a good 12 months before we even started recording, we were talking. About it. Easy, I reckon. Even longer. Yeah. And so we came up with a concept, and it is still something that one day I would love to do. Yeah. So we're not gonna give too much away of what it actually is.

3:17 No one else. Someone might steal that idea. Oh. For sure like I would, it's such a good idea. But anyway, it was called, it was gonna be called too forward TWO forward. Why is it gonna be called too forward me because. Apparently I'm too forward according to your husband.

3:35 Yeah, one day for it was like what was it even in relation? I'm just having a mental blank now, but Peters like oh, isn't that a bit too forward? It's. Been this ongoing little inside joke, like too forward, whatever, I'd come over or whatever and say they say to you like, oh, can I have a glass of water too forward? Certainly, but you've got to help yourself. Actually, we've gone well. Yeah, so we knew a glass of water. At my house. Oh gorgeous. So yeah, this is was this ongoing joke for like couple good few years.

4:04 Was that there that we're like, oh, we have to use that now? Name, Yeah. So one day, stay tuned. We you never know if we ever can do this and make a bit of money from it. That too forward might come to fruition. Yeah, that'd be awesome. Very good. So we you've had a bit of a big week this week. It was your birthday yesterday. Yes, my 40th, right? Yes, your 40th. Pin Yeah. I know my asshole brother. I said to him like, you know, we're going away for the weekend and he's and I'm like, yeah, yeah, we're going away for my 40th and he goes, so you can't, you can't get away with that, can't you?

4:36 Freaking asshole? Yes, I can. Yes, you absolutely can. Yeah, absolutely. It's just, you know, a little bit delayed. That's all. Yeah, it's a little bit plus a bit 40 + a bit. It was fun. We had, we went away last weekend. I think we spoke about that in one of our episodes and one of our recent episodes. We went away for some school mums and it was lots and lots of fun. So much fun. We had some really nice meals and yeah. Shout out shout out to Sweet Bang Sweet bang. She knows who she knows. It was really good fun, really nice weekend, but what did you get up to yesterday?

5:11 Yesterday for my actual birthday. Actual 40th? Well, I mean lost something. Yeah, no, such a birthday celebration. It was a big celebration day. So yeah, got up and made breakfast for myself and went to work and then picked up the kids from school and went to do basketball training and then went home and we had cake and stuff when I got home, but that's it. It's the way. Birthdays go these days, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then obviously it's Mother's Day this weekend anyway, so it's like the birthday.

5:41 Just really. Did not plan that well. No, I blame my mother. Parents didn't. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Why do you blame your brother? No, I said. I blame my. Mother, your mother. I was like, how's your brother? I'm sure I could find a way to blame a brother. Yeah, it's totally your mum and dad. Yeah, yeah, totally. They're fruit. No, absolutely. Combining it all into one like that for people. I shouldn't. Yeah, be convenient for people or anything. Oh well, you know, it's horrible having celebrations close together.

6:08 Yeah, my boys did such a good job last night making me feel very special. They sang, They sang happy birthday to me. They were freaking hilarious. Actually. It's a little buck go, like, you know, moves from Brody and the and bro and yeah, Mason yelling it at the top of his lungs. It's just, it was gorgeous. So gorgeous. So yeah. And that was after you'd flipped them around to basketball training and had a whinged and. Like. Yeah, yeah. Do I have to move? I know I got last night. This is the worst day of my life.

6:39 Glad when they say. That I know I can't help but laugh at it because I'm like dude, I think it's just. Effective, mate. Life is gonna really eat you up, yeah. I mean, you don't want anything bad to happen. Oh God no. A bit of perspective every now and then. The fact that there's no basketball rings free for me to play on whilst my brother has training is actually not the worst day of your life. Yeah, yeah, I'm. Really confidently gonna say that.

7:07 Oh, seriously, kids? Yeah, Seriously. Yeah, the. Same, like sometimes things will happen, they'll be like, that was the worst off. I never want to do that again. And I'm like, well, two things you've got to. Yeah. But yeah, so it's actually not that bad. It's really not OK. Yeah, it's actually gonna be OK. Here as sport, Brad, if you think that's the worst thing that's gonna happen. Oh my God, kids these days. I'll tell you how good they've got it.

7:31 We were talking this morning. I can't even remember. Oh, actually Oliver was asking something about university and Peter goes he's like, Oh yeah, uni's the best because not only do you get like 3 or nearly four months off over Christmas, you basically you might have a lecture in the morning and then maybe like a chute or a. Pub in the afternoon. Yeah, he's like, then you go to the pub, you play around the golf, you go and get a good feed somewhere and Oliver's like, oh, I can't wait for. It although I think these days it is a bit different to when we went because it's all I think a lot of us online and stuff.

8:08 What I'm gathering from other friends, kids who have now uni, which is insane, but yeah, they I mean, yeah, one of them in particular was talking to you saying like, you know, well, yeah, Uni life, God, I loved it. Like, you know, and she was like, Oh yeah, people don't really hang out at uni. And I was like, oh, maybe it's certain courses. I don't know. But yeah, maybe. Yeah, she's like, yeah, she really goes in like once a week or something. So you can't build for relationships when you go in once a week.

8:30 Away I. Still love uni. Yeah, that's why I did five years of it. That's a lot. That's a lot, yeah. But then I think at the time you don't appreciate how good you've. Got Oh God no. You know you've got a little part time job, Yeah. And the rest of your life is yours, free and easy, and you don't appreciate. It living at home with the parents at the same time and studying and stuff and going like I have all this money. OK. And you start to like, maybe get a slightly better job than your, you know, your subway jobs or whatever.

8:59 Like your first job managing like decent, managing the store and stuff by that stage of like, you know, just like on the weekends and like and that and I was like, oh, you rocking? They're drunk.

9:10 Hungover, a bit dusty, a bit dusty. Speaking of dusty, so we did go away last weekend. I literally feel like only. So we got back, well, I got back very early Sunday morning just. To commute, I don't know how you got up early I. I really don't even know. Haley and I got back home and I was like, now we had a whole day to, like, keep going with. Yeah, It's actually literally taken me until today, Friday, to get over it. Yes. I was just exhausted. I sent a photo to everyone in our group on Monday morning, and I had three drinks lined up.

9:44 I had a Barocca. No, I had four. I had a Barocca, a hydrolight, a water or a tea, and my water bottle all lined up at work. Yeah, I've never been that thirsty in my life. I was so dry. The next Oh, that's Monday. You're good at prepping though, like you always, you always like send me a shot of your prep of, you know, like your hydra light your coffee, you know, like, and I always look at it and think, Oh my God, is she gonna wear her pants? Shoot her pants. I'd be hydrated for the whole day just.

10:10 So to everyone, none of that's ever actually happened. That she's willing to admit.

10:18 I swear to you I have never wet or she.

10:26 Oh God, your prep works well. Yeah, well, I'm, I'm pre hydrating. It's my pregame, Yeah. And it works for me. Yeah, generally I don't then have like, you know, the horrible hangover the next day. Yeah, yeah. Oh shit, very funny. Oh, should we get into the start of today? Just really quickly I was gonna say because I'm having flashbacks seeing you on the screen at the moment of of another episode we did. Do you know which one I'm talking about? Oh yes, I do. As soon as I put this on this morning, I'm like, she's gonna say something about it.

10:54 But having said that, this is not the top I wore. No, it's not. It's. Not as high of a of a turtle. No, it's just giving vibes, Yeah. It's giving vibes of the Elizabeth. Messages. Yeah, if you agree, well, isn't Elizabeth Holmes. Or is it The Rock?

11:12 Well, actually I've got a gold chain. You have. Maybe it's giving the rock. Yeah, I'll take it. Oh God, I'll take it, love. It. So what we've decided to do, we're going to do a 2 parter on this case. So we're doing the Lynette Dawson, Lynette Sims. She's now known again as Lynette Sims. Yep, case that was made incredibly popular by the Teachers Pet Podcast I had before the teacher's pet. I'd never even heard her name before. So the fact that, you know, this podcast gained so much popularity, it really sort of.

11:46 I think the Teacher's Pet podcast is now at something like worldwide, like 60 million downloads or something. It's one of the top ten of all time. Yeah, yeah. Very popular and if you haven't gone and listened to it, I mean, it's a long form podcast. If you've got you know, you want to put into a long form one highly, highly recommend if you haven't listened to it, because his investigation, his investigative journalism is top notch like and his dulcet tones. Oh yeah, he's got a beautiful voice. Yes, he does have a nice voice.

12:14 Yeah, I've actually seen him live. So Hedley Thomas is who we're talking about. I went to see him with my girlfriend, Michelle. Oh, this was. I want to say right 2018 like. Right at the height of it I think. It had been taken down at that point when you went. To see it being taken down. So they'd only recorded at that point the 1st 14, like the core episodes at that. Point yes, because I only I got up to like episode. I want to say like episode 8 before they took it down and then so then I was like stuck on episode 8 going.

12:44 What happens, man? Yeah. So they actually removed it from being able to listen to. We'll get to this a little bit more in next week's episode. Yeah, we can talk about that in a lot more detail. But, you know, thank God for this kind of investigative journalism because without it, I don't think we would have seen the. We wouldn't have even really known about this case, and it certainly wouldn't have had the justice or an outcome that it has. Yeah, that's why we wanted to cover it. And we feel like A2 parter is probably appropriate because we've got a lot to talk about.

13:16 But as Meg said, if you want to know in a lot more depth, there is so, so, so, so, so much nuance to this and so many little, tiny little details which we there's no way obviously we'll be able to cover into one hour episode. And obviously his interviews in that, you know, in hearing from people directly, that's right. It's really fabulous. Yeah, Incredible. Incredible right? So this is a case of, well, the eventual murder of Lynette Sims. So Lynette Joy Sims was born on the 5th of May in 1948 in Sydney, NSW, Australia.

13:50 She was the eldest of three children in her family. So her daddy's name was Len, her mum Helena. She had a brother named Greg and a sister named Pat. And they are, they are interviewed in the in the Teachers Pet podcast. And especially Greg and his wife Marilyn. They really contributed a lot. And I think a lot of the times you see spokespeople for the family, it's usually Greg and Marilyn who are, you know, at the forefront of that. And they have not given up on achieving. Justice for Yeah, I mean, before even Hadley Thomas getting involved, they were in the background pushing things and trying to find ways to get this out there and get, you know, an action on this.

14:32 But I think. The other thing is as well, it wasn't only her family who were doing that. She had Sue Strass, yes, friend who she Lynn worked at a childcare centre and even she was going, she went to like an ombudsman to try and get some advice on what to do. So people were really trying hard to get this case moving, but we're probably getting a little bit ahead of ourselves. Yeah, yeah. Lynn attended like local schools in Sydney, just, you know, the local high, local primary and high schools. And she was quite academic and a really diligent student, according to according to her teachers.

15:07 Yes, Chris Dawson. Chris Dawson, he's. A well, I'm going to say it up front, piece of shit, but we'll get to. It giant piece of shit. Giant piece of shit. Yeah, So Christopher Michael Dawson was born on the 26th of July in 1948 in Sydney, NSW, Australia. He was the second of three brothers. So he has a twin, an identical, and I mean identical twin. Brothers, so many ways that like these two grew up actually they started their own language that they had to be taken to speech therapy for because no one else could understand them.

15:43 But they were that entwined with each other that they could understand each other without speaking or and then they developed this whole other language between the two of them. Did you? Watch, there's a Checkerboard episode. So Checkerboard was an old, I think it was an ABC production and you can watch it on YouTube. Yeah. And basically the episode was about twins, yes. And the relationship twins have. So by this stage Chris and Lynette were married and also Paul and his wife Marilyn were married and they were both.

16:15 They were all interviewed for this chequerboard. I think I have a long. Time ago. Yeah. Yeah. It's fascinating to watch. But what I found really interesting about that is so they're talking about Twyndham and Lynn says a story about how 'cause Lynn was a nurse and she'd come off a shift one day and she went over and she went up and hugged who she thought was Chris, and it turned out to be Paul. But Chris wasn't happy with that. And, you know, there was. So you start to be OK already. She's saying this on a national TV program.

16:43 She, I mean, she loved. Yeah, Yes. And she goes, oh, Chris wasn't very happy with that. And I'm like, oh, OK. But then the brothers actually talking about because they were so close. And I think in that checkerboard program, they do talk about the the fact that they had their own language. They had to do speech therapy because nobody could understand them but themselves. And then they said something along the lines of people who don't have an identical twin do not understand the bond that we have, But they go, they said something like, well, it's not really like it's not a, it's not a sexual thing.

17:20 And I'm. Like, why would you? Why would you even say that? Why would you say that? Well, we'll get to. That get to that for sure. But that's really. Interesting. Yeah, that they actually vocalize that. Yeah. And not even like with an interviewer say, directly asking them about it. I think the interviewer said something about, you know, it's, it's a really intimate bond. But not that's not. No, no. Meaning. That's interesting. Yeah, isn't it? Yeah. That they know everything about each other. Which.

17:46 OK, Yeah. You've grown up with this person from conception. Yes, yeah, but yeah, yeah, they absolutely like were twins that would switch places for each other too. I think one of them sat the drivers license for the other one because he was at training for rugby. Yep, I believe Paul even like to he was I think he was the slightly better rugby player should mention because obviously they both played high quality rugby and you know, so they he he made it kind of thing, but he said he wouldn't go to the team unless his brother came with him.

18:15 So he basically negotiated his contract to get his brother in as well. Yeah. Which is interesting how how Co dependent, Co dependent they were, yeah. Well, it and that that existed up until well, I'm sure it still exists to this day, but even we could see it throughout like the ends of this story. Yes, they their bond was. Unbreakable. Absolutely unbreakable. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, so, you know, you hear about families who live near each other, but even, like, these two ended up living, like, just down the road from each other too, didn't they?

18:48 Like. Well, they built houses in the same. Street. Yeah, yeah. So you can need more space from my siblings than that. Oh yeah, I'm happy to be here, although I'd like to see my nephews more often. Yeah. So they attended Sydney Boys High School, Chris and Paul were both prefects there and they graduated in 1966. Yeah, they both, as you said, the way that they came to both be in the same team is an interesting one that you've just explained. Yeah, but they both played a second row forwards for the Newtown Jets in the NSW Rugby League from 1972 to 1977.

19:24 Chris made 53 appearances over that time and scored eleven tries, which apparently is not bad. Yeah, yeah, pretty, pretty good. Yeah, given the position he played, I think that was that was pretty good. Yeah, so they had they were known publicly. They weren't just people loved. Yeah, so they. Weren't really good looking. Yeah. So then some modeling as well and a lot of them, what would we would consider in Australia here at the time where people would call them the chesty bonds, look alikes, they were very well.

19:53 Well, how should we say it? Very attractive. Very, very attractive. Very attractive. They were athletic. Yeah, they were very popular. They were. Clean cut looking? Absolutely. Easy going in that they were like, up for anything. Larrikins. Larrikins. Yeah. Good Aussie. Shall we say charismatic? I would say that I would 100%. And we get. We'll get more to that again. Yeah. So Lynette Sims and Chris Dawson met when they were both aged 16. Yeah. At a high school function in 1965. They were married in 1970, so they were only 21 when they got.

20:30 Married. We think that it's so young. I think back then it was considered quite, that was probably fairly average age for getting married, etcetera. But like for us it was just kind of going to go, Oh my God, 21. I think back to what I was doing at 21 and like, certainly not having like, getting married and yeah, yeah. So it was after they were married that Paul and Chris's rugby careers took off. So, you know, they, they met before all of that. But I think you know, the popularity of Chris and Paul, once they became rugby players and quite well known in the community, especially around that Northern beaches, the Insular Peninsula.

21:11 We've spoken about that in previous episodes as well because and it is absolutely a thing and it 100% played a part in what ended up happening. The cover ups that happened in relation to this case and the injustice that Lynn and her family, and I'm talking about The Sims family here and her daughters as well that they faced over the time for sure. So after ending his their rugby careers, Paul and Chris both became high school teachers. High school PE teachers. Chris worked at Croma High School, yeah, and which is in Sydney and they, they didn't make an amazing impression in terms, I mean, sorry, everyone loved them.

21:54 There were these ex rugby players. People idolize them for that. I mean, it's like any elite sports person I guess. Yeah, their abilities are absolutely admired by people, aren't they? And because they were so good looking, they've gone to work as PE teachers in a high school and I'm sure they got a lot of attention that should have been rejected. Absolutely was it I mean, we've both been teenage girls. Yep and PA teachers typically they fit healthy, like you know, you kind of tend to like they can be teachers that can be easily had a crush on by a 1516 year old or they're you know, your hormones are raging at that age and all those sorts of things.

22:34 Yep and APA teacher, particularly as many other teachers, male teachers and female teachers, it goes both genders. I'm not, but when this story we're talking about men and and young girls and you know, but as a teacher, you know, to have that. Boundary. Boundary. Yeah, you would think. Oh well, one would think. You would hope. But turns out. Turns out no. We now know that that wasn't necessarily the case. Yeah. And both brothers were engaging in illicit affairs and experiences with their young. Students so.

23:09 We've got so many things going on here. We've got teachers exploiting their positions. We've got grown men, yeah, exploiting young women. And I'm not talking one or two girls. I'm talking like sex rings. Yeah, it is. It was a sex ring. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. The stories that like have now come out from those that were involved and we're gonna call one of them in particular. This plays a big part in this JC. We're gonna use that name respectfully as people probably know who went like the her actual name.

23:40 But as as Hedley Thomas did and his teachers pet podcast, we are going to call her JC because in this situation, she was a child in this and so she needs to be respected for not being named. And we're going to continue through with that in this. So JC has come forward with lots of stories of that. And then others have also come forward since around what was going on between the young girls and these two, particularly these two teachers. And there was there were multiple teachers at Chrome. There were multiple teachers.

24:09 But I mean, we're obviously focusing on Chris and Shaw. But yeah, they were certainly not the only ones. And as, and I think we've talked, talked about other cases as well along the way where we kind of go, whoa, hang on. Were they involved with that? And did they all know each other? Because it's a similar time frame. And yeah, it wasn't just even these these two high schools. It was there was multiple involved and you think I think back to that in the North Shore, yeah. That Marion Barton case where, you know, there was some stuff, I don't think it actually linked towards her disappearance at all.

24:35 But in that case there was some stuff that came out around like she was, I'm sure what was happening with some teachers and probably knew something and an information that might have been why she disappeared. You know, there was talk of that within her that case that I think that potentially, yeah, Marion, there was some knowledge there of teachers being inappropriate with children. Yeah. And the law back then, which plays a part later on to it was quite different to what it is now, which I, this is what it really makes me feel sick around these girls though a lot was put on these girls for this.

25:02 You know, that that was their fault for what went on in that they were provocative and that they were the ones seeking this out with their teachers. And so. Oh, what were the men to do? Yeah. So. There was, there's been, I mean, I think it's pretty well known to everybody that these cases have eventually either been come out in the media or have actually been, have gone to court. Yeah, but there's a in some court documentation regarding all of this. There was a girl, a girl at the time, who's only referred to ACD in the court transcripts.

25:34 And she talks about the fact that she felt she felt it was her fault. And that's why she didn't come forward for a long time, because she did find the teachers attractive and she thought they were gorgeous. And when they gave her attention, she thought she couldn't believe it. She couldn't believe that they wanted to do things with her. But then when it got to the point that they were doing things with her, she was like, Oh no, oh, this thing is wrong. But she felt she couldn't say no. She's gone that far.

26:02 And so, you know, you think about that's one girl's experience that we know of. I'm sure she's not the only one who had that exact same experience. Yeah. Well, I mean this JC so she was a very vulnerable girl. She was having issues at home, Her mother had remarried and she'd met an interesting bloke. So the statistically speaking, this, you know, can come with some, you know, interesting dynamics. So brought in this this other guy to the the family and he was an alcoholic, violent, you know, so JC was dealing with a lot at home.

26:40 And so this brought with it. She was looking for, I guess a father figure too, you know. So she to have this man, this teacher at school showing interest in her, who was a, you know, a good ear for her to chat to, who generally listen to her about her issues that were going on. I mean, the poor girl was in this situation of like, I don't want to be at home, but the the the company of this much older man. So at this point she was like 1516 and he was 32. He was twice her age. I mean, it must have, you know, she must have been feeling quite special that he was, you know, because he actually said he manipulated the classes.

27:18 He he saw her before even talking to her and getting to know this about her. He manipulated the classes so that she was in his classes and so he could get to know her. Now, I dare say he knew who she was in the school. I'm sure he spoke to current teachers of like, oh, who's that girl? And you know, and they'd be, oh, she's got a troubled life at home. And you know, those sorts of things he targeted is so predatory. So then manipulate the classes so that he was her teacher is just horrific. Well, she was so vulnerable to in that situation because I think you're right, she was looking for stability.

27:50 She was looking for a family life that she didn't have at home. And Chris was offering her that because he asked her to come and babysit for their children. So I think we're just going back just really, really goodly. Lynn and Chris had two daughters and you know, so Lynn was raising these daughters. As I mentioned before, she was a nurse, but she then after they, or actually even before they had kids, she'd started working at this childcare centre. But that. Well, that's where I can make a little bit confused because the old, like childcare qualification was actually called a mother craft nurse.

28:23 Yeah. So I think that's what she studied, not necessarily like medical nursing. I thought she worked at a hospital prior. To oh, OK, maybe she had done both or done 1. I don't know. Yeah. Because I don't know whether because when I was reading, I was like, are people confused by that term that's being used or am I getting confused? Yeah, because back back then it would have been mother craft nurse is what they would have been qualified in to be working in children with children. Yeah, but I mean by all accounts she was such a caring and nurturing woman even before she was a mum, but then even more so once she became a mother to these.

28:55 Two and they had trouble falling on pregnant and she and all she wanted was to be a mum. And I can relate a little bit to this situation in that she's in this relationship with a man who is quite clearly controlling from the get go. You know that there was the issues in the marriage, but then to have the element of not falling pregnant and her she must that would have really hit her, her worth in this marriage of like this is my fault that I'm not giving him what he deserves. He deserves children.

29:22 He's this great bloke because in the community's eyes, he was, you know, that for her that would have been absolutely devastating that she wasn't able, her body wasn't doing what it was supposed to do. And you know, so he probably manipulated that to make her feel pretty terrible about, I mean, heaven forbid it be his. The reason, like he might be contributing factor to why they weren't falling pregnant, but it would be made out to be entirely her fault as to why that was occurring. So again, there's more abuse.

29:51 100% yeah. So it's, it's she would have been in an awful situation of like finally getting these girls. So she was, she adored these children. She wanted them desperately. And then, and she was a brilliant mum by it from all accounts. Everyone says it, Yeah, everyone. Her Co workers, her friends, her neighbors, you know, apparently. And you listen to like, I'm just sort of referring now back to that checkerboard program because it's one of the only times you can actually hear Lynn's voice. Yeah, she's so lovely.

30:19 Yeah. So nicely spoken. Very soft, very gentle, very just love. She just seemed so lovely and I can imagine that nature as a mum, like she would have been an incredible mum and as I said, everyone who witnessed her as a mum said she was second to none. Like her, her daughter, her eldest daughter Chanel, we've heard a little bit from in more recent years, who was only four at the time when she lost her mum. And then her younger sister who was two even. Yeah. So even Sharon, wasn't it? Yes, Sharon.

30:49 Sharon. Yeah, so the, the older one, like, I mean, being 4, she has small memories, you know, of her mum and even to her, and probably it's more feelings than it is actual distinct memories. And she remembers her mum just being beautiful and caring, you know. So it's something that, you know, she was, she was definitely a a very beautiful person inside and out. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So I mean, Lynn, by this stage, you know, they've got their two children. They're settling into family life. And Lynn didn't drive, so she caught the bus everywhere.

31:24 Again. Controlling, interesting choice. And so she would catch the bus she'd but she'd do everything. It's not like it stopped her. She wouldn't take the kids swimming. She'd take them to the beach, she'd take them to the park. She'd go everywhere and do everything that needed to be done on the bus. So it was that was something that she was, you know, quite well versed in and, and all of that jazz. So where are we at now? Really? We're sort of at the point now where we've established the fact that Chris is, you know, he's forming these inappropriate, inappropriate relationships at school with young students.

32:01 Lynn is at her workplace managing the girls, doing, from what I can gather, the lion's share of the child rearing. Yeah. But because Chris, you know, being the the wonderful father that he was, he thought maybe JC could become the family babysitter so that when he and Lynn wanted to go out or had an appointment or had things to do, there was somebody there to care for their children. He put it across to her like, you know, I'm helping you out because she was returning to work. Obviously she was working as well, Lynn, so it was to help out, be helpful around the house and that the idea was that JC would be another pair of hands, like more of a nanny.

32:39 I think give and give JC some time where she wasn't having to go home to her horrible home life, spend time in their home instead, which JC was very keen to do in terms of being around just a regular, what we know, what she considered a regular family and to see see how that function. I think at the start JC was doing daytime and, you know, evening sort of babysitting, and then that evolved to overnight. Because she certainly was around, like witnessing Lynn with the children as well as when she was being alone with the children.

33:09 So that's right. Yeah, she certainly saw their interactions and what that was like, unfortunately. You know, there were often times that Chris and JC were alone in the house with the girls, and on this one particular day, Lynn came home and he, she found JC and Chris in bed together. And it was all very much like covered. Covered up. Really. Yeah, I don't think. Yeah, this happened. This came out in one of the later episodes. So it wasn't in the core episodes of The Teachers. Yeah. It was one of the later ones.

33:39 Yeah. That and it was a diary entry. I think they can't. And yeah, they'd been caught in bed together. So Lynn was like, she can't come back here and. He did move her in. Yeah, he moved. Was this before or after? No, she had moved in. She had moved in at. This because I thought that okay all. Right, Sorry. No, sorry. No, she hadn't moved in. This was on one of the days that she, it was like an overnight or something like that. And she was like, oh, she can't stay. And he was like, oh, oh, well, I don't know what your problem is.

34:09 And, you know, sort of, you know, went down that path with her. Because JC also did speak in her testimony around, and this goes to what happens a little bit later on too, that Chris would quite regularly make nice drinks for Lynn in the evening. And she said that that was to sort of get Lynn a little bit drunk so that she might go to bed early and then the two of them could go and have sex in the house. I mean, that just blows my mind that he would put it right in front of her in their own home with their girls there with his wife next, you know, in another room.

34:38 That's just, Oh my God, next level. The testimony of and this was actually written in Lynn's mum Helena's diary around. I'm probably getting a little bit ahead now but on the night that we know was ended up being Lynn's last night in the house, her mum phoned and they spoke on the phone and Lynn literally said that to her mum said oh, Chris has just made me a nice drink. And Helena said that she sounded quite sozzled with the words. Yeah, which I love that word. Yeah, me too. I think we were a bit sozzled on the weekend.

35:11 So yeah, we're sort of at the point now where where Lynn does disappear. Well, we can. Go, go back a little bit further with that. Sorry. So because he yeah, to the point where Chris did invite JC to move in with them. And she did move in. At first, Lynn was OK, like this girl. And it was put to Lynn of, you know, like she needs help. She needs to get out of where she is. It was this, you know, like we're helping her. And Lynn being the caring, kind person she was, allowed it to happen. But it didn't sit well.

35:40 And she had spoken to others about it saying, I don't know, there's something gut instinct wise telling me don't do this. But you know the poor girl, well, she needs help. So they did move her in, but then fairly fairly shortly after that, Lynn put her foot down and went No, no, no, you know what? I need her to to go and. So I think that was when Lynn found them. Yeah, well, no. So then she moved in with Paul. Yes. And Marilyn down the road, down the road. So it wasn't even like she went far, but but that's where this manipulation between the two, the two brothers were.

36:06 I mean, Paul knew what was going on between the two of them. So why that blows my mind that your brother is going to be like yeah, sure. Let yeah, bring your your piece on the side down to us and we'll move her into our house so you can continue your affair with your 16 year old student to boot. Yeah. So just that just blows my mind. And sorry, Marilyn also, like, surely, surely you knew what the fuck was going. She knew. But at this point too, this was around about then November 1981, Paul went in for a small surgery.

36:39 And so at this point even that everyone was a little bit like what is going on between the two of them. But Chris specifically said to Lynn when he was having this procedure, he had to have spent a couple of nights in afterwards and he'd said don't come in and visit me. Like I'll be fine. You just look after the kids and take care of what's going on here. I'll be fine. Don't come in and visit me. Which is weird, but Helena thought, I'll go in and pop in and see him. Obviously you need someone to take care of him a little bit.

37:03 And she walked into the hospital and walked in on JC sitting on the bed in a very interesting way. And she immediately went, this isn't right. She and so I don't know that she said anything to Lynn at the time, but she's spoken about it after the fact. Definitely saying like it immediately gave her ick. You know like feelings It was. Yeah, she was like. I there's something going on here. She wrote about that in her diary too and said I don't think she did. Tell. I don't yeah, I have a funny feeling she didn't tell Lynn about it because at this point, obviously JC had moved out of the home.

37:33 She wasn't living in it anymore at that point, but she was like, there's something going on. But the fact that he'd orchestrated his little 16 year old, yes student to come and see him more so than his wife when? I mean, I know it wasn't a serious procedure, but no, no, you know, he was still in hospital for a few nights. It wasn't nothing. And any other spouse would. Go and visit there going in, taking other some food or some something you know that he needs or you know, spare another pair of pyjamas.

37:57 Clean pyjamas. Few years old get out if I was in hospital and he didn't come and visit. Me both, yeah. No, a really weird situation to do. So then obviously he'd orchestrated he one. 100% he didn't want Lynn there because he wanted, he wanted JC, he wanted to manipulate JC of like care for me, look after me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So then so obviously this is where the two their their relationship obviously is ramping up at this point of this, you know, leading up to the end of 1981. So we get into sort of 19 to the to the December right by December 23, yes, the two of them twenty, yeah, sorry.

38:34 December 23rd, yeah, the two of them, JC and Chris get in the car. Sorry. Prior to this, Chris had actually gone to his other brother, not Paul, Peter, who is a lawyer and definitely plays a big role later. Yeah, he went to his brother and said, I think I went out of my relationship, what would I do here? And because there was this affair happening with JC particularly, and Peter was aware of it, What the fuck is going on with this family? They all know about this. They're happy. To stop it, but they were probably all doing the same thing.

39:05 With other girls as well. Oh, just gross. So he warned Chris that at this point, if you were to leave Lynn, you would be financially viable for that. So which Chris is like, oh, I don't wanna be financially viable. Like, you know, like I don't wanna partner. What the fuck did he think was gonna happen that he could just take away, walk away and take everything? Like so he couldn't divorce her because if he divorced her then he would have to pay her out basically is what the issue was. So he's like, well, somehow here I've got to stay married to her and like, like, I'm not gonna be able to get out of this without unscathed and just have my sex with my 16 year old student.

39:40 So he decides, obviously then he's got to somehow stay in this marriage. Like so he decides to take the 16 year old off to Queensland. So the two of them get in a car and drive to Queensland. He left a note for Lynn which said basically don't speak too poorly of me to the girls, which I, which is such an interesting thing for him to have done. And Lynn didn't know really how to take this. As in, does this mean you're never coming back? Or does this mean you're coming back but you're not? You know, you're coming around and I'm but I shouldn't talk badly of you because, you know, but you'll be involved.

40:14 Or it didn't really state what his plan was at. All he didn't actually have the balls to say to her. I want to leave you. No, because if he knew that he'd be if she turned around and divorced him, he'd have to financially pay her out. Yeah, so he wanted to do that. It's so ambiguous. And Lynn, what? What would you do as a woman? You've been left. You've got two young kids. It's two days before Christmas. You'd be like, what? What is going on? Like nothing was explained to her. She had. No. I mean, look, I feel like she obviously knew there was something going on.

40:42 Yeah, yeah. But they hadn't discussed. It no like she was very aware that their marriage was not in a good place. She was she was trying her hardest to keep it together. And yeah, because like, yeah, she'd not only had she spoken to her work colleagues who she was very close with and her neighbor who she was very close with about it and wanted their advice, because she she actually said I wanted to save my marriage. I wanted to work at it. And, you know, you know, for the sake the children were so young, they were four and two at this point.

41:07 Yeah. And she wanted to keep their family unit together, so she was seeking advice from people. Interestingly, just to note that, I mean, yeah, she wanted to keep her marriage together, all those sorts of things, but already at this point, work colleagues had noticed bruises on her when she'd come into work too. And when asked about it. I fell. Fell over. I. Tripped. Tripped. The kids left their toys out and I tripped. You know, like I. Walked into a door. Yeah, yeah, which is just tragic. So horrible.

41:35 So yeah, he's so Chris has taken this young 16 year old drive. They're driving to Queensland. But JC already at this age was like, this doesn't feel right. She was didn't feel comfortable with as much as she didn't want to be in her family home. She knew this wasn't right either. So she started showing some, you know, I'm going to get out of this and was really quite homesick. I guess that, you know, sort of stuff that they ended up turning around and coming back. They didn't even make it did. They they never make it to Queensland, no.

42:04 However, in the meantime, Christmas Day went by. Like Lynn, the poor thing, she's like, is he going to come home and see the girls for Christmas Day? Like what? Father doesn't want to at least see his kids on Christmas Day? It's always been a big family arrangement. You know, for them young kids. Like that young, that is. The joy of Christmas is seeing young. Children, no one wants to sat on 4 year old 2 year old at Christmas. Jesus, no way. Oh, he's funny, but he. Couldn't have given a shit. Yeah, no, clearly.

42:30 No, probably nothing. No way, No. So I've had this major memory of my 2 year old Brody unwrapping a Christmas present. And because he was such a little pain like at that age, I, I'd wrapped up a, a potato like, and I've got this video of him unwrapping and Brody Mason in the background here and go, Brody got a potato, Brody got a potato and he, Brody go, oh, potato, I got a potato. I love chips. Oh God, so you couldn't even get him on that he. Was so stoked. Finally you knew. I know. Saved yourself a fortune.

43:00 He was just absolutely could have just wrapped him all like potatoes would have been it for the whole whole morning. Oh God, it's classic that video. I'll show it to you one day Anyway, Yeah, 2 or 4 year olds at Christmas are the best. So. Yeah, so. Much fun. So much so, yeah. So she was kind of hopeful that he would appear. So she stayed home and didn't go to her family or his family or anything for Christmas Day going if he if he comes home, I want to be home. I mean, what the loyal fucking wife?

43:29 Like she was desperate to keep this marriage together no matter what, even knowing really what he was doing. Yeah, I think she expected him to show. Up. Yeah. She really? Yeah. Like, again, who would what kind of a father would miss their children's Christmas Day? And she couldn't fathom that thought. But he didn't show up and you know, she missed out on Christmas with her, her family and his. Family. Yeah, And the girls missed out like, that's what hurts. That's hurts. That's bad But yes, they did end up rocking up though like eventually the two of them came back.

44:01 So this was sort of Yeah at a point where JC then was like pulling away from the relationship. She was not really as in it, I think as much. Yeah, she was feeling she. Wasn'tified the fact by this point that he was very controlling. She had to do everything, he said. She has said that she didn't want to go to Queensland and that was his idea and she went against her will basically. But he told her they had to do it because, you know, he obviously felt like that was a way to head away or whatever.

44:31 It is how he could get what he wanted. So this poor, again vulnerable girl is stuck in this controlling relationship and she doesn't really have anywhere to go. Her parents are, or her mum in particular is not, you know, she's not a safe place for her to fall. And what, she's gonna go back to Paul and Marilyn or Marilyn? Yeah. Honestly, no. Like that was just so fucking toxic. Yeah. So what? She to do she was stuck. Yeah, absolutely, completely stuck. So in the new year she does go away with her her group of friends.

45:08 It was because they were graduating so she so this time she was in 17 I think so they they've graduated from high school and the as they as traditionally as we do when we finished grams year 12 in in Australia go off on on your week of holiday schoolies. This is like probably pre the big schoolies. Obviously the people wouldn't do, but have. Been the biggest toolies you've ever. Oh absolutely, they'd love a good schoolies. I mean, Gee, it's free for all. Gross. Yeah. So she went away with her school friends, like to a caravan park and they were having a nice time.

45:39 But he was she made, he made sure he had. She had to ring him every day and contact him, which I mean, at this day, obviously, no, no mobile phones. It's her finding a payphone and calling her 32 year old boyfriend like on the side that she's not telling her friends about like he was. Also jealous of the other boys. Oh yes, the trolley boy. Like that's in the trial. I mean that poor jealous, yeah. And he made this kids life hell yeah just because he was friends with JC. There was nothing going on.

46:07 Between he apparently like was like what? He was keen on it. For sure, but there was nothing going on. No, like it was very innocent. The way he would even ask her out was kind of like, Oh yeah, I'll see you at the dance maybe. Or, you know, he was trying to like little bits here and there, like, but not forcefully at all. I mean, what a nice young kid. Imagine if that had been her first relationship instead of this douchebag like her life would have. Been so different knew at that point she couldn't have gone there because she already knew the type of person that this was yeah the thought of that obviously she couldn't even go there no.

46:37 So how sad's that 17 year old girl can't even have a fling with someone her? Own age? Yeah, it's exactly someone her own age. Like crazy. Horrible, horrible. Poor girl. Absolutely. Yeah. So I think at this point, like, Paul's feeling a little bit like he hasn't got control of her enough. Like, so you mean Chris? Sorry, Chris. Sorry, Chris. Yeah. Chris hasn't got the control of her that he wants because she is showing signs of wanting to pull away. So obviously he's a little bit, you know, unsettled by that, I think.

47:06 So this is where we get to sort of that early January time frame where unfortunately Lynn disappears. Yeah, so the night before, as I mentioned earlier, the night before she'd spoken to her mom, Helena on the phone and she'd said, Chris has mixed me a lovely drink and you know, she was gonna go to bed. And they actually made arrangements to meet the following morning at. They had actually been to a marriage counsellor that day as well. Absolutely sorry. You're absolutely right. Because so Lynn was feeling like, oh, we're making progress here to get things back on track now that he's come back from this little trip he's been on.

47:42 And we've got, he agreed to go to marriage counselling when he came home because obviously there was something wrong in the marriage. Like they they they had to both acknowledge it at that point. Yeah. So he did agree to go to marriage counselling. So they'd gone and done their first session at marriage counselling on the 8th of January. And yeah. And Lynn was like, he showed up, he was there, we did that. We're gonna we're gonna be on the track now to get him down. Lynn left to work after that session.

48:06 And she said to her work colleagues that, you know, they were holding hands in the elevator on the way down, like after the session. And, you know, she felt so confident that things were gonna get back on track. They'd made an appointment to do another counseling session. And Lynn was so heartened by the fact that he was willing to do that. So we get to the night of the 8th and the drink and the phone call to to Lynn's mum. And they'd arranged to meet the next morning at the swimming pool, the local swimming.

48:34 Pool. Well, Chris worked as a lifeguard part time. Yep, Yep. And because there's no mobile phones back then and you know, you like, OK, well, I'll meet you at the whatever the baths that at 9:00 AM or whatever it was, I can't remember the exact time. And Helena was like, Yep, no worries. And Helena drove. So she drove herself there. And when Helena gets there that morning, all she finds is Chris and the 2 girls. And no. She's like, where's Lynn? Where's? Lynn, he dropped her. He said he dropped her at the the bus stop that morning and that she was heading off to do some shopping.

49:11 And then so he was, as I said, he was working at the bars, but I think it was pretty casual kind of style work. Like it wasn't like he was, you know, busy, busy, busy. He was, you know, obviously looking after his girls at the same time as working and keeping an eye on other swimmers in the pool, being fit, healthy man. He was well thought of it again at this place to be someone on on deck, to be on hand if someone was in a bit of trouble. But the phone, apparently a phone call came in and there's conjecture around this phone call and who called him to the phone or if anyone did or if he just decided that he had had a phone call.

49:47 But he ended up going to Helena and saying to her that was Lynn on the phone. She's just told me that she'd like to spend some a couple of nights away just to get her head right and need some time. And even Helena was like, what? But that doesn't sound like Lynn, but OK. And so in the end, Helena took the 2 girls back to her place with her because Chris was working. And obviously Lynn's gone away for a couple of days, needing some time for herself. Having not spoken to her mom who like she spoke to about everything and like sort of stuff is.

50:21 They were very close, yeah. They were a very tight knit family, Yeah. The Sims family, yeah. So imagine how Helena must have felt like. I think in that moment you'd be like, you'd be almost a bit. Bamboozled because it's absolutely. Character for Lynn but then Chris has said I've just spoken to her so like what reason does he really have? To you could only believe him in that moment. I mean, and she's had obviously this little incident where she's like, I think there's something going between this young girl and him.

50:48 And look back in that day, she would have been blaming the young girl more than she was him. Which is. She says she says she loved Chris. She. Loves they all thought he was amazing. Amazing. Yeah, so this is the problem I really with our lens on it from a 2025 lens of how we see this that poor girls being totally manipulated completely groomed 100% but back then that was the girl was the one who was pushing it onto the man, the man like kind of thing. So she her her take on this would not be like, you know, hang on that shithead has done something here.

51:24 I know because he's been having it off with this 16 year old. Her, her frame of mind at the time would have been like, well, what? What else would I think to think here other than Chris is telling me the truth? Yeah, yeah. Which God? That's it. So awful. The Monday morning comes around and Chris rings in sick for Lynn to her work and says, oh, she's gone away. I don't know when she's going to be back, but she won't be in this week. Yeah, her colleagues. Yeah, so he admits that she'll be in for the whole week.

51:50 Yeah. And her colleagues are bamboozled. They're like, OK, like that. That is not like Lynn at all. You know, she was so dedicated to work, loved her work. You know, she she never missed a shift. She never didn't show up nice, especially for Chris to call in for her. Like it was all a bit strange. Sue Strath, her colleague even said, like, right from the get go, she had a bad feeling. She. But she said the first couple of days, OK, Lynn might be sick in bed. It happens to the best of us. You know, that's fine.

52:19 But it was a few days after that, she was like, something doesn't seem right here. She'd ring the house. Yeah. And the day no one would answer. And. Sue had actually already noted too that as much as we said earlier that Lynn had shown up to work with bruises that Sue Strath had seen on the 8th of January, as much as she came in that day talking, you know, positively about their marriage and this counselling session that they'd had, she did also notice bruises and probably more, even more so than previously.

52:48 Yeah, so she actually noticed bruises in different places. So she'd noticed, like, bruising on her arms, like she'd been grabbed on her arm. And so, you know, to Sue, I think she noted an escalation in what she'd previously seen, which obviously was in the back of her mind and made her think very differently about the events that sort of subsequently took place. Yeah. It wasn't until six weeks after Lynn went missing that Chris reported her as such after Helena begged begged him to why she didn't report when missing.

53:26 I'm not. Really, again, I think it's a sign of the time as in like, you know, that was her husband's job. Like, you know, that that I think that I think that's what would have been playing out there for her. I mean, I think this day and age 100% her, you know, family would have been at that down that police station far sooner just going no, fuck you, mate, we're reporting her missing. I think that that's like. A contextual. Yeah, I do. I think that's a bit of a like, you know, oh, that we don't want to imply in their in their relationship and their it's they would be a bit further staying back of like, I think they would have been like going this is not feeling right, but it's up to him.

53:59 He needs to deal with that. That's his family. We're not her family. Now that's a. Really long time not. To because it was the 15th, the 18th of Feb, wasn't it that he reported her missing? Yeah, so between the 8th, so 8th of January's of last time anyone knows that was notably I've seen her. In 1982. 82 And then February 18th, he finally went down to the police station and reported her missing. And he reported her missing. So what did I say? I wrote notes on that. Like he what he said to the police, too, was that it was just incredible.

54:31 The words were that he he said she had, they'd had an argument and things and that she had had a breakdown the night before, but she'd apologized for that and it was all good. Like what a narcissist to make sure he let people know that. Oh, but she, she accepted full responsibility. He was wrong. She did it, did wrong by me and she's apologized for it. It was all her. Oh. God. He also suggested that maybe she'd joined a religious cult. So which, I mean, that's come out of nowhere in terms of coming from, oh, she's gone away for a couple of nights to just, you know, clear her head to now.

55:07 Oh, yeah. She mentioned something about joining a religious cult which. Like. What the fuck? I'm seriously doing. Especially when she wasn't an overly religious woman. It wasn't like they were involved in things like that. And there was no evidence of that whatsoever. Absolutely crazy thoughts in terms of that, yeah. Seriously. But unfortunately being reported missing though even in on February 18th, it really didn't spark much of A investigation by the police. They weren't overly interested to like follow things up in concern because they took his word because he was such a good bloke also.

55:46 The because he's reported her missing in the, you know, the local police station. Yeah, the local police and the rugby team and the school and everyone, they all look very small and insular community. So the cops knew Chris and Paul and idolize them and thought they were amazing because they were ex Newcastle Jets players and we're just, you know, top blokes. And so they accepted Chris's story at face value. They didn't do any. I think the only thing they really investigated was whether her bank card had been used.

56:23 Yeah, well, do you get used a couple of times after she left? Yes, yeah, but to no like to no lead no. And then also they checked to see if she'd used her Medicare card, which she hadn't so. And that was it So what? What? OK right. So we've got a woman who we don't know where she is, but then so Chris's brother-in-law. So on his side. No, sorry. How did it work? I think it was so Chris's brother Paul, his wife Marilyn. Marilyn, her brother. Right. So claims yeah, he saw Lynn at a bus stop. Yes. A couple of months after she went.

57:07 Missing There were a number of sightings from people who knew her or didn't know her at all. There were some sightings that would have been mentioned, but the. Fact that this guy was semi sort of related to her they. Took it quite seriously to kind of go, well, he'd know if it was her or not. And he said he saw her getting on a bus that was headed north.

57:28 And they just kind of went, oh, OK, cool, cool, cool. Yeah, she totally just leave those young children and never return. Without a note, without a, she didn't take any personal possession. No. No jewelry? No. Clothes to wake up. Two days after Lynn went missing, JC is moving into the family home permanently, immediately into Lynn's bed. And her clothes. I was going to say, she was then wearing all of Lynn's jewelry, all of Lynn's clothes. She was. She assumed the role of mother to the two children.

58:04 Which she was not equipped. For not at all. This was a 17 year old girl. I mean babysitting at 17 for a few hours? Cool. But what kind of balls do you have as Chris to do that without? Like I'm sorry but as the community was not anyone going hey what the fuck. The neighbor, So the next door neighbor, who was, was she like diagonally behind them I think? Right. Yes. So she she and Lynn were really close and Lynn would say things to her about JC when JC was living there or coming to babysit the girls.

58:42 And the neighbour's like, you know, she sunbathes topless outside and Chris is around when she's sunbathing topless outside. And so that neighbor was then like, Oh well. I she sees here all the time now. Yeah, she thought that was weird and thought that needed to be reported. I don't know that she reported that to police until all this actually came out. No, because again, it's that whole like, oh, it's none of my business. Like that that mentality of that era. I think she did and she regrets it, I believe now and said, you know, like she was.

59:13 I was like, no, it's not really my place to say anything. Yeah. And because the police didn't go to her, like if they had gone to her and and knocked on her door as an abus was saying, do you know anything about what was going on over here? You say anything She would have, she sort of has said I would have said it. But because they never came to her and asked her, she didn't go seeking out the police to say, hey, I've got information here because she just didn't think that it was relevant or, you know, or needed.

59:36 To be involved, relevant because I think she wanted to say something, but I think you're right in that in that era she just, I don't know, kept minded her own business. Yeah. But she and Lynn were really good friends. Like they used to catch up for coffee several times a week. They'd go to each others houses. Yeah. Had kids who were similar ish ages and the kids had played together and that she was the one who told. Lynn about JC in the backyard and JC being around the girls all the time and things that Lynn didn't necessarily know, like JC being at the house when Lynn didn't even know she was meant to be there, stuff like that.

1:00:15 So this neighbor didn't know enough. I mean, you know what it's like as your neighbor, like, you know, you look out the front window and well, who does my name? So what? Well, my neighbor, because, you know. Everything that goes on in this street. Oh, yeah. But well, that's thanks to my well, I'm actually not bad for it either. But my neighbor across the region sometimes will say to me, she's like, oh, who is at your house today? This car was that. I love it yeah. So, you know, you just know the comings and goings in your in your neighborhood or Yeah, especially with your immediate neighbors, you just get to know people's patterns and stuff.

1:00:48 Exactly. And yeah, it just never eventuated to anything. And I think that is so tragic and so sad because something may, would it have? I don't know. I guess we don't know what would have happened had she been able to report. Unfortunately, I think that the police and that just, they did without being like, you know, Oh yeah, we'll protect you mate. It was more of a fact of like, oh, we just think he's so great. He wouldn't have done anything. I wouldn't even, I don't think they even their brains even went to the thought of what if, oh, maybe the husband did this because they were like, but it's Chris Dawson.

1:01:21 He's a top bloke. But also his brother, his brother gave him an alibi for the night. So his brother's like, Oh no, he was at my place. Was he? Don't think so. Maybe for part of the night. Maybe after him, I don't know. Yep. And they both moved over. Maybe they moved over.

1:01:41 That's my opinion. Yeah. So it's, it's fascinating. Oh, absolutely fascinating. The fact that I mean, as you said, if this happened today, there is no chance in hell he would have gotten away with. No way he could have moved her in that quickly without people going eh? Yeah, yeah. No, this is. Not cool. There's totally going something going on because it didn't take long in terms of like, as you say, she literally moved in there as like, you know, as the new Lynn and was wearing her clothes, all that sort of stuff.

1:02:09 He very quickly really, I mean, she disappeared and obviously nothing heard of her again that by 1983, he filed for divorce from Lynn and claimed abandonment. He also in that claimed that the reason for the breakdown of their marriage was her overspending. Yeah, he said. A frivolous. Spending overuse of bank card or something like that was what was that there's. No evidence of whatsoever. Well. Her friends all say Lynn was actually quite tight. Frugal. Quite frugal. Like tights, probably. Horrible.

1:02:41 She was quite frugal. Yeah. She she made clothes for the girls she like. She wasn't a big spender. And they had money. Yeah. Like they were, he was working so many jobs like and she was working and. He'd had the money from when he was playing like. Rugby. Rugby, which I think was very lucrative for him and and then he had sponsorships, he had lots of other things. He had lots of different jobs. Lynn was working pretty much full time, I think. Yeah, yeah. So they they weren't short of a buck, no.

1:03:08 And they lived in a beautiful. Home they did. Really beautiful home. Yeah, they built had a swimming pool and it was big. Yeah, They were not living, you know, tightly. Like they didn't need to live tightly. But there was no evidence of her overspending in terms of their bank account. So it like literally could look at it and go, well, yeah, she was spending money on things she needed. Like other than that, there was nothing like she wasn't going down to the I don't even know, Louis Vuitton and buying handbags or, you know, like, you know, there was none of nothing for it.

1:03:35 But yes, what an A hole. So then like again, blame her for the breakdown of any of the marriage. Yes. And yes, there was breakdown of marriage prior to this, but you know, it wasn't to that point until he murdered her. Well, this is the thing, right? This goes to motive because he needed to get out of the marriage because he obviously decided that he wanted JC and that she was going to come into the house and replace Lynn and do all of the things that Lynn used to do. Ha ha. Jokes on him. That didn't quite happen.

1:04:05 But as in the way he thought it was going to. But the reason that he wanted to get this divorce finalized and through, it's because all he wanted to do was marry JC. Yeah. And have her come in and replace Lyn essentially, which I don't. Get in a lot of ways, I, I, I don't know what. But like, why are you replacing one with another? Like, if you want a different life, you want a different life, but your life isn't going to change significantly. So this is the thing I I about affairs and that kind of thing, right.

1:04:34 In the first instance, I'm sure an affair is exciting and different. And, you know, everyone's feeling all of the feelings at the end of the day. You're still going to get annoyed when they breathe at night, you know, and when they, I don't know, slurp their soup or whatever it is that irritates you. Yeah. You know at when you live with someone and you get beyond that initial sparkly part of your relationship. She's not going to stay 16 forever. Well, no. So what he did he expect was going to happen, that he was going to have this completely different life.

1:05:08 No, you've still got the responsibility of two young children. Yeah, you're actually putting the responsibility of care for those children onto a teenager who's ill equipped to deal with it. So that Chanel and Sharon have come out and said, you know, she wasn't a great mum to them. She was pretty, not pretty, not good. Which again, I go back to, I don't blame her for that. They were not her kids. She was a kid herself. Well, they say that she was good up until Chris. She and Chris had their own child together.

1:05:41 Yeah. So she was actually fine when it was just the two of them. And I guess that would have been very much in the infancy of all of this as well. Yeah. She was their babysitter and babysitters. They're fun, yeah. The kids generally love their babysitters. And, yeah, you know, when it becomes an actual, you know, role that you have to do and like, that's, that's that's a step. Parenting is difficult at the best of times. I can't imagine like, you know, yeah, embracing someone else's children as your own or That is really hard.

1:06:08 And she's 17. Yeah. You shouldn't have the mental capacity for it at all. And that's, again, it's not her fault. But in this era, there was this idea of her now being an adult at that point somehow, that she had brain functionality of someone who could cope with that. She'd had a traumatic childhood herself, like. Which hadn't been dealt. With she just jumped, not at. All into another which dysfunctional relationship pulses. Me the way he basically manipulated her into having sex with him was exactly that of like he was going to fix her trauma by doing having sex with her.

1:06:41 Oh, yeah, in so in their, I think it was like, well, if not their first sexual encounter, I think pretty sure that's how she described their first sexual encounter. He was like, yeah, this is going to fix this is going to help you get over your trauma by us doing this. And he and then at the end of it, he thanked her, and she had to thank him for doing that for her. Oh my God, yeah, so gross that is. Horrible. Hearing her speak about that and her testimony is really heart wrenching, Yeah. That's that's horrific.

1:07:13 And that's the grossest of grooming ever. Like what? A piece? Of shit. Oh my God, what a total piece of shit. Oh, that poor girl. Yeah. And I just, it flaws me that then there's this, there were people at this time and there's potentially people in this time who have an opinion of her as if she has done the wrong thing. I just can't. But we'll get to that in terms of the the trial and things going on, yeah. So they've gotten married, and then they have conceived their own daughter. So they got married in 1984, so it didn't take long and they just had a ceremony in their backyard with Paul and Marilyn as the witnesses.

1:07:51 Which, again, I just fucking can't. Handle. I can't even. But, you know, he's also now robbed JC of that, you know, of a, of a wedding and the celebration that goes with that, the family that goes with that. Yeah, all of it. And he's just been like, well, no, I'm marrying you. And we're doing this in the backyard because he had to keep it hidden. Again, because he was just don't have relationships. They take prisoners. And he absolutely did that with her. They've then gone on to have a daughter of their own, and Chanel and Sharon say that this was really in their minds when things started to change in their relationship with JC.

1:08:30 But I think ultimately it was a change in Chris and her relationship too, because from what she says, that's when it became more violent with her directly. Because I think at that point with her having a baby, she now becomes no longer like it's almost like it's not, not that she was, she was already not a virgin kind of stuff with him that that's that's been and gone well and truly. But I think it kind of made her, she's now a mother. She's not a young hot 16 year old like it for him. I think that changed his opinion of her.

1:09:00 Now that you're a mother, you're not. You're not useful to me. She describes that as in JC describes that this is the point in their relationship as well where the physical abuse started. Yeah, not long after the birth of their child. So I think you're absolutely right in saying that he it something shifted in him, obviously. Yeah, he got what he wanted. And he was just then repeating the same pattern that he had with Lynn. Yeah. And she certainly expressed that she felt that it could end up where it did with Lynn that she thought because, I mean, she always had thoughts of like that did he do something to Lynn and hurt her?

1:09:34 I don't think. She, by the time they ended that she ended their relationship, that she was 100% convinced he'd killed her. But she'd had the inkling about that from the day Lynn went missing because you know, the drink situation the night before. She, she just knew, she, she knew there was something going on. The fact that she was in the bed, in the marital bed two days later, he knew Lynn wasn't coming back. Of course he did. He wouldn't. Have moved her in there if he thought she was going to turn up the next day potentially like no.

1:10:04 So, you know, she, she said she knew, but what was, you know, she was so young, what would she do about it? She was scared. Yeah. Oh yeah. No, there's no life experience that teaches you how to handle that. Nowhere to go. She didn't have her family that she could turn to and say hey I'm not in a good place here. I need help to get out and her SO. Like their biggest issues were probably like, I've got to save money to buy a car. Yeah. Or, you know, am I going to go to university or am I going to go and get a job?

1:10:30 You know, that was probably their biggest dilemma. Yes. Yeah. And I think the affluent nature of the people who lived in those areas meant that, you know, fiscally she was behind the 8 ball as well because her family didn't come from money. She didn't have the financial backing that a lot of her friends had as well. So she really was just out on her own by absolutely he isolated her. He knew. That he could do that. Yeah, he'd done exactly what he planned to do. You know, he, he had her on his own and he had her where he wanted her to be.

1:11:01 Exactly. Yeah. So not by 1990 the two separated. Like, I'm good on her. She found a way out. I don't think he was overly happy about that, but at the same time he didn't really want her in the same way anymore either. So yeah, 1990 they were separated and that was the end of that marriage. But obviously she had, she's still had a daughter with him. So there was ending the marriage doesn't exactly end the relationship either. So. But I don't know that he was that interested in in the child. I don't believe so.

1:11:31 I don't know how much contact he had. I don't think, I don't think it was 0 contact, but I don't think it was a lot. But she moved away as well, so she needed, obviously needed the space. Yeah. And by that time, like obviously JC had, she'd grown up and was finally, I guess clearly in her mind, understanding what had happened to her far more and being able to. Because up until this point, yeah, she's been a child and she. Wasn't even 30 yet when they happened this. Is it? I know this is it, She's her brain's finally at 25, developed enough to say hang on a second, I'm right in what I'm thinking as I've felt sick about this the whole time but haven't been able to articulate that or understand that for myself.

1:12:11 And now I do understand it and I need to get out of it. She also said that the threat against her was getting greater and greater, and that was the thing that ultimately made her leave and flee. Essentially, he threatened her life. She did go to the police when she left. That was really how she she got out. Yeah, yeah. She had to go and report things and she did, which we will get to next week. I think this is probably a good spot to leave it. Yeah, I think that's probably there. We sort of move on to the next phase of this because at this point in terms of Lynn's even up until this 1990 point, there's been really no movement in the in her disappearance and the investigation of that.

1:12:50 It's like people have just forgotten that it even happened and have all moved on aside from Lynn's family and her friends who are trying, trying so hard to, to get the case or to have a found. Like, you know, her mum would hear of a sighting or something and go and try and find her. Like it's just horrific. It's I can't, I can't imagine what her family went through. No, absolutely. Like it would just be awful. Like it's. That ambiguous loss that again, we've spoken about this in previous episodes, it's loss of a person when you don't actually know what's happened.

1:13:24 So do you grieve her because you think she's deceased? Do you do you like hold out hope that she's going to be found and you're going to see her again and it's all going to be happy families like the ambiguous loss is is almost impossible for a human to process. Absolutely, because. We need finality, we need to be able to close things off in our mind no matter what has happened. Her family had none of that, no, and her mum passed away not knowing any of it. That's really awful. It's horrible. It should just go.

1:13:56 The only thing that did occur within the investigation was in 1984 there was an inquest into her death and in the inquest it was found that it was that she was likely murdered and by someone that knew her. However, the DPP decided that they didn't have enough evidence to prosecute anyone. So that had occurred. And I think that that also made it feel like that was sort of around that time they got married as well. I think that it was all like, see, that's all done and dusted now. No ones being arrested, no ones being charged with this.

1:14:29 He he thought he was in the clear. Yeah. And then not long after that, I think, yeah, there was another sighting of her. Yeah. They say that she ran it. Someone said that they saw her on TV in the motorcade of Charles and Diana's wedding and that she ran across, like in front of the motorcade. And that was her, of course. I mean, obviously it obviously wasn't. But, you know, there was a lot out there that people were like, oh, well, could it be? Could it be? And yeah, we'll get to it next week. We all know, obviously that it it wasn't.

1:15:01 No. All right, well, good. Thank you for joining us for another episode. Stay tuned next week for Part 2 where we get to sort of the investigation and then the trial that that came of it. So thanks for joining us. Don't forget to like us on all the socials. Please send us messages. Let us know what you want us to do for our 50th episode. Can't wait for that one. Our tik toks have been going off again so please follow us over there at 2 Crime Besties. Yes, 2. TWO. Yeah, TWO, if you're looking for us.

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1:16:06 At least we remembered to turn Audacity on and clap so. We remembered everything, at least remembering that. Now we've got to remember the case. Same, same. We'll be right, OK.