Episode 41 - Jai, Tyler & Bailey Farquharson

0:15 Welcome back to Crime Besties, to another episode. Thank you so much for joining us again. Oh yes. Welcome everyone. We have arrived. We're here. We're happy. You sound very congested. Today very congested. Just leave me alone. It's it's your turn, Yeah. Turn, Yeah, we, we share around here and we're good at that. Yeah, yeah. Are you feeling okay though? Yeah, I'll be right. Yeah. I'll pull myself together once we get into it. I think I'll be right. Yeah. It's just, you know, hits the head all good.

0:45 It's. Such a miserable feeling. It makes you appreciate though when you're not feeling sick. Like I'm actually feeling really good now. Yeah. I feel like these things are said to, you know, knock into, you know, get motivated or whatever, like it's, it's all not life's not that bad. You can feel like this more often. Yeah. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, that's right. So that's all good. What you've got, Yes, very good. Soldier on. Absolutely. Yeah. How has your week been? You had from being not 100%.

1:10 Not 100% this week, no, but busy. It's just, it's just never ending. We had a lovely day out on Saturday, drinking lots of wine for a friend's birthday and things. That was very nice. That was nice, the weather. Was stunning. And we were sitting outside. It was just beautiful. Yeah. Went out to the Yarra Valley. It was just delightful. Very nice. Very. Delightful. Yes, yeah, those days are good. I mean, God, that I felt like the tasting was never gonna end like. The guy that we had who's doing the tasting, I mean, you know, no shade to people who do that for a job because I mean, thank God, we've got, oh, we put a porous wine when we we need them.

1:50 But he was a little odd. A little odds. Yeah, yeah. But look, we, I think we tasted something like 10 wines at one wine. Yeah, it was fantastic. And they were all like, nice. All really nice, yeah, came home with a few bottles and yeah, nice, nice lunch afterwards. It was, it was a lovely. Day, it was very nice. Yeah. So that that was really good to do that. That was really good. But then he has since then I've just sort of felt like shit. Oh. That's horrible. Yes, but it's all good. I'm, I'm kind of, I'm tapped out for tonight and someone else is doing all the running around with the kids.

2:24 So I've got work stuff and it's, yeah, just never. There's just always something there's. Always something. Yeah. It's so true. Yeah, it's so true. I mean, it's, you know, it's one of those things where you try and practice gratitude for these things and you're like, I'm really glad I get to do this and I'm really glad I get to do that. But then there are days where you're like, I wish I didn't have to do your, you know, all that running around. But I also love the fact that the kids are happy, willing and able to do all that stuff.

2:50 Yes, that we, you know, ferry them around to, taxing them around to. Oh, this is it. They love it, absolutely love it. So yeah, I know like tonight my 2 are just ecstatics. They've got like jumper presentation at footy and stuff and it's that's like life to them. Yeah. So yeah, it's very, it's very cute. Yeah, stupidly, I think probably stupidly took on the trainer role for both of the kids team. I'm literally claiming that that's my contribution as well, because you were standing next to me when you did it.

3:19 Yeah, yeah, I'll. Yeah, I'm with her. Sure, sure. I'll let you hand out the snakes when the kids come off with a Jarred finger because that's generally what I do and then turn around and send them back on. But what that means is so these days to be a trainer for an under eights and an under elevens team, you need to do a first aid in CPR. Fair enough, that's fine. You then need to do an Emergency Management response coordination course and a sports trainer course as well. Oh. God, how much time is that taking to store those?

3:55 So I think if you do all of them in one go, it's 9 hours face to face and three hours online. Oh. I think our like I've done, I do the full first aid for work and stuff and that's yeah, three hours at least offline and three hours on site. Yeah. Like, yeah, so I'm doing, I've done that. I've done that bit, but now I have to do the others, which we are actually recording today on a Wednesday because you've got some stuff going on at work on Friday. But it actually worked out really well that I, that we've got Friday off because it meant that I can do the course on Friday.

4:30 Oh man, heaven forbid we should actually get a day off to ourselves. Like what? What's? That you know. You know, what really shits me, though, is the lack of volunteers because it's always the same people putting their hands up and yeah, you know, it just doesn't, you know, these junior sporting clubs in particular. Yeah, run of the kindness of volunteers. 100% like, yeah, if no, people don't put their hand up, they don't exist. And I feel so bad for that because, I mean, being there, the president of the club standing up saying, you know, if we don't have people volunteering, then this doesn't exist, you know, and trying to get people to volunteer.

5:08 And it's like, and there's crickets from a crowd of people, Yeah, you know, and I mean, everyone's busy. Everyone's busy. But if you want your kids doing these things. That's right. Yeah, yeah, exactly right. Yeah. And look, I mean, everyone contributes in different ways. I get it. Like some people, you know, can't do certain things. I find it hard being on my own trying to manage those things. But like, you know, obviously you're pitching where you can, but yeah, I mean those people that do have that, if they've got that bit more time, like, you know, that sort of stuff that it's really helpful and people.

5:36 Very helpful. I know I nearly put my hand up for trainer for my older son's team that 'cause it got to a point of like no one else was doing it. And I'm like, I can, I'm only there every second week. Like I'm not, I, I can't do it on my own if someone else will do it with me, like kind of thing. And ended up we had like four of us like that, put our hand up the the club were like, we can't afford to pay for that many people to have to do the course. And yeah, when I hear it's that long, it's like, well, yeah.

5:59 And that'll cost a fair bit of money. It does. So I mean the club pays for it as you said, but it does cost a significant amount of money. Yeah, I. Mean at least I've done most of that training, but yeah, there'd be parts I'd still have to add to that. So yeah, we ended up figuring worked out out of the four, two better placed people to do it. Oh, that could manage on their own. But I'm like, I'll be like, you know, child Wrangler of siblings. Yeah. You know, like in support in other ways, Yeah.

6:25 Like, you know, I'll be spare mum, like for those ones that are around the edges on the days that I'm there, like, perfect. Yeah. Just got a pitch in. That's it. Yeah, that's exactly right. Yes, I've got a couple of shout outs for today. We've got Emma K Walker and Leanne Robinson, both who've contacted us in the last week or so. So thank you ladies. We really appreciate the positive feedback and and everything that you've sent through. So thank you. And Emma's all the way from them, from America.

6:53 I love that no, when you know in so we release our podcast through like the Spotify creator platform and you can actually see a breakdown on there of the nationalities of people who listen to us. You can see a breakdown of gender and age. You might be surprised to know that most of our listeners are female and sort of in that I think it's like 30 to 49 bracket is the biggest, biggest one. So thanks. Shout out to all you ladies too. We've got a nice, nice smattering of men in there as well. Yeah.

7:22 But I, what I've noticed lately is when we first started, I think our, I think was something like 98% Australian listeners. And now we're like at 90% Australian listeners because our base overseas has grown so much. So we've got listeners from so many different countries around the world. We've got UK, USA, we've got a few in Malaysia who seem to listen every week. So yeah, so thank you so much to everybody, all of our international listeners. Yeah, we love it that you're here, but I don't know, I just always assumed maybe Australians would listen to us, but I hadn't even really considered that international people would find us, let alone listen every week.

7:59 I love that. And I think Emma was, it was recommended to Emma by a friend of hers and it's like, well, yeah, so it's growing internationally. Like I love that because I mean, the cases we do, I mean, we try and mix it up. We don't just do Australia. We probably do more Australia than we do other, but that's probably because it's our wheelhouse with what we know most. But yeah, we love listening, love having a go at those international ones too. So yeah, yeah. So if you've got cases from internationally that you want us to, yeah, we'll give it a go.

8:23 Like, we'll look into it. So yeah, please send them through, send through any case suggestions that you have. Yeah, we're always looking for something new and interesting to research and and have a chat about. Definitely awesome. Are we ready to get into today's case? Today's case is, yeah, maybe angry, but yeah, yeah. Look, I think just before we really get into it, I think so today we're talking about the Farkwesen boys. So Jay Tyler and Bailey Farkwesen, if I think Megan, I both have a very similar stance to where we sit with this case.

9:01 And if you want to find out different types of information, there is other stuff out there. But we have come at this from a certain angle. And if that angle is not for you, move on and listen to somebody else, yeah. Yeah. I think that's. Probably the best way to put it. Best way to put it, All right, Robert Donald William Farquharson was born in 1969. Do you know, could you find his date of birth anywhere? Oh my God, no. No, all I know is 1969. I don't know why his date of birth is withheld, not even in the court.

9:36 I couldn't find it anywhere. No, that's a really weird one, because there's no reason for it. Everyone knows who he is, what he looks like. Yeah. Where he is, yeah. Anyway, very very very strange. Yeah. His childhood and upbringing were fairly stock standard. There was nothing in particular that came up in my research anyway that that meant he had any sort of weird and wonderful upbringing. I think his childhood was very much what an A standard Australian upbringing would be in the 60s and 70s. Agreed.

10:09 Yeah, nothing. Nothing crazy. Nothing stood out. What? So just very, very standard. Yeah, No, yeah. In February of 1990, Robert met Cindy Gambino. Yeah, so I think they met at a pub or something. Is that right? So like three friends sort of thing, yeah. Yeah. And they, I think they hit it off straight away. No. No, not that they didn't hit it off, but they were just. There was nothing there between them. Not according to. Well, I think it depends on who you ask. In that context, 'cause I think Robert was quite.

10:44 Robert was very taken with her, but right from the get go he was not in that she was it's that's just Robert. Yeah, that they became friendly like there, but there was she was not keen on him in any way. I think she had a partner at the time or not long. I think she'd recently split from someone. She did have a boyfriend who passed away in a car accident. Yeah. Which was really horrific. Yeah. Robert was just, he was a very much a background person to her. He he wasn't anyone. An acquaintance. Yeah, yeah.

11:14 And they became friendly. And then there was a point where she was in a bit of financial trouble. She needed a bit of help and he did help her out financially, but all these things to me were just. White night, Saving the day, Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And I think she sort of, I think got to a point where she almost felt like obligated that she had to take it to a next level because he was helping her. And being so nice to her. Yeah, yeah. I'll, I'll say it once and I'll say it many times throughout this.

11:41 Cindy Gambino was his hostage, not his partner. Yeah, yeah, He targeted her a little bit, I think personally. I think so as well, yeah. I think the fact that his account of their first meeting was that it was like sparks flying, sparks flying, love at first sight sort of thing is, you know, given the contradiction then to what we know from Cindy reporting the exact same incident, yeah, I think that says a lot. And that, I mean, that's that story of her. They've been, they were friends, you know, kind of thing.

12:12 And then just she, yeah, she was just, she very much. There was even a comment that was made around that she was, there was no physical attraction at all. And she very much felt like she was sort of like settling like that's what was on the table for her. And that's what she did. It wasn't. There was no attraction or. Yeah. Yeah, more to it than that. Yeah, yeah. In October of 1994, their first son, Jay was born. Then a few years later, in July of 1998, their second son, Tyler was born. Yeah, they actually got engaged in in this time.

12:51 Actually, I think they got engaged when Cindy was pregnant with Jay. Yes. So in 1998. They fell pregnant like six months after they were sort of officially dating, like kind of stuff. She fell pregnant, Yeah. And then. Yeah. And then he would propose when she was pregnant. Yeah. And then? And then in December, oh sorry, in two in the year 2000, they got married and then in December of 2002, they welcomed their third son named Bailey. So I think as the story goes, Robert was very keen on on son one and son 2, but not so keen on having that third child.

13:25 He. Wasn't even present that much apparently with the first two in terms of like, you know, assisting around helping change nappies or he was. That was very much Cindy's job was raising the the children. He would sort of come in at the end of the day and rile them up on, you know, right on bedtime, that sort of stuff that those sorts of things happened. Apparently he had a bit of an odd relationship with Jay that he would sort of, I don't know, like just tease him a lot and which would upset Jay a lot, which was sad.

13:56 Very sad. Very, very sad. Yeah, it's it's it's interesting to me whenever I hear stories like this, it takes 2 to tango. And if you're not wanting a third child, like, I mean, I know how babies are made, but I also have know how babies are not made. And if that's not a discussion that's had been had or whatever, or even if, you know, the pregnancy happened despite best efforts at some point, how could you be like, oh, I just really didn't want that child and for that to be something that people.

14:33 But I think you wanted to keep Cindy, so if she's pregnant, she has to stick around. She's. So do you. Caught there? Do you think that was a deliberate thing? Like, Because from what I've read, I don't know that Bailey was necessarily planned. No, no, I don't think that it was planned really even consciously in that sense, but I think that it was he was actively not not trying like kind of thing. It was that whole idea of like, well, I think look, Cindy's quoted a bit as saying like, you know, even at the wedding, you know, getting married, she was like, I don't really love him, like I don't know why I'm doing this, but she's got two kids to the the guy, like, you know, he kind of I think she felt like she was trapped and so, well, this is what you got to do.

15:16 Like, you know, this is what what this is what happens. You have babies with someone, you get married like, you know, it's. And I think that then as the marriage wasn't, it wasn't horrific, She wasn't she. And I think that's where this this, you know, this abuse thing happens that, yeah, no, I'm not being physically abused. So therefore there's no abuse. There's abuse that can happen that's not physical. And I think she was very unaware of it kind of thing. And so she's like, why? Why am I not feeling right?

15:41 Why this isn't right? And I think he's sensing that she's not happy. Yeah. And the the marriage isn't really working, but how else? So, but I've got to keep her around, so I'm not gonna not have a baby with her. Yeah, OK. Another baby means that she stays that that traps her again. So I think that as much as he doesn't want another kid that's hers, that's for her to worry about the kid. Well, this is the. Thing isn't it because she was doing the lion's share of the of the child rearing? Yeah, I think he never got up overnight.

16:10 He didn't he wouldn't even change a nappy. No. So that meant Cindy was tied to the house and to the boys. Yeah. And I know as moms, of course you do that for your children. And she loves them so much, so much as she would. But yeah, yeah, it's hard work. Absolutely, and to you know, you you do it going into it thinking you've got a partner for that person to then not be doing their their share of the work. That's not cool either. Not. Crazy. Yeah, by just no, hold on, sorry. In 2004. So Bailey was born in 2002, a couple of years after they got married.

16:46 They separated amicably. Yeah, depending on who you ask. Yeah, as much as you can. I think so any. Separation is going to be, you know, a bit volatile. I guess so. But in in, I think by amicably they mean that they were still communicating. Yeah. And had agreed on different sort of aspects to do with the children in terms of who would have access when and how that would all work. I don't think they had any sort of formal legal arrangement at all. I think they were just trying to work it out among themselves.

17:16 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Around this time, so not long after the split, and I'm not quite sure whether there was maybe some crossover, Cindy gets together with a man by the name of Steven Mules. Well, they were building a house, Cindy and Robert and as part of with building the house, there was some work being done in the house and this and Steven was working on that I think. Yeah, he laid the slab. No, he laid the slab. Yeah, that's right. So he was there, so he'd got to know both of them and he'd actually become friendly with Robert and they were, you know, quite reasonable mates, you know, chatting at them that what's what's and all those sort of things.

17:51 But there was a bit of sparks between, yeah, between Cindy and him, which he had not long separated from his ex as well, his wife. And he knew how that worked. So I think rightly so, he'd done the whole like, yeah, there's something here, but I'm not entertaining that unless, you know, the time's right for everyone. So I think he that between them, they had sort of worked out that, yeah, this is there's something here, but let's do this the right way. Absolutely. And they, they did do that because his testimony, even by the time the incident that we're about to talk about happened in 2005, yeah, they weren't even officially really together then because he wanted to wait until the divorce had gone through.

18:31 Yeah, make it real official that that. Was that's right before they like started thinking about moving in together and actually really integrating themselves into one another's life? Yeah, so they were friends, you know, with, you know, a bit of attraction. Yeah. But at that point, but yeah, no, I think like, you know, great bloke, good on him. Like, you know, and well done to Cindy and him for doing it the right way and trying to navigate it really carefully. And this is the thing, no matter how carefully you did that, that's, I mean, that is, you know, as ideal a situation as you can get out of two very adult people mature, doing that the right way, protecting, you know, a bit of Robert's feelings too and all those sorts of things.

19:06 Well. Stephen also was for him, he it was a protective thing for his own children. So he had two sons from his first marriage, and he said he didn't want to introduce his kids into a volatile situation either. And he wanted to know what was where it was going to go or whether it was even going to go anywhere because he didn't know whether like whether the finality of the relationship between Cindy and Robert was actually what? Yeah, she was saying someone changes their mind, you know, that's it.

19:33 Yeah. Yeah, so 4th of September 2005. Father's. Day, Father's Day. So yeah, in Australia we have Father's Day on in September, Sunday of September, Yeah, I think in other countries it might be June and all those sort of things, but yeah, for us it's in September, 1st Sunday. That's fair, yes. So Father's Day. What a day, Yeah. It was not Roberts weekend to have the boys. So I believe they're sort of. Loose custody arrangement was that Cindy had them during the week, and then every second weekend, Robert would have the boys for the weekend.

20:08 Yeah. Robert was living at this point with his dad. Yeah. And so he didn't. He hadn't quite found a place of his own yet. So and Cindy, I believe, had quite still quite a good relationship with, with her ex in laws. And so it was quite comfortable for her to go over there and, you know, see the boys and whatever pick up and drop off and that all that was all all fine. Yeah. On the morning of Father's Day, Cindy, basically they discussed it and Cindy had said to Robert, you're more than welcome to see the boys.

20:45 I can. Drop It wasn't actually his weekend. No, it wasn't. His weekend, Yeah. So she said, You know, I'll drop them to you in the afternoon and you can bring them back to me after dinner. Yeah. So in the morning, I think they went to Cindy's parents home in the morning. Oh, no, sorry. In the morning they went and visited Steven. Yes, that's right. And they gave him. I love this. They gave him an electric walk. Yes. And a photo collage of him and his boys, which I thought was really nice. So it's very thoughtful.

21:12 Yeah. And then because he got the walk, Steven then invited Cindy and the boys back for dinner that night. And he was going to cook up a nice stir fry in the electric walk. After that they went, Cindy took the boys to her parents home to go and see her dad. And they had presents and morning tea there. And I believe from what I can gather. So they lived in Winchell Sea, which is sort of fairly semi rural area. Yeah. And I think Cindy's parents lived on an acreage and apparently that morning Cindy's dad got Jay to mow the lawn.

21:47 They had to ride on the lawn mower and paid him 20 bucks to do so. 20 bucks Jeez for a 10 year old. Yeah, that, I mean, God, early 2000s too. That's good money. I. Love that for Jay. Absolutely. Yeah. Good audience. And he loved doing it too. It wasn't, he was a chore. Which I mean, I've I'm my my that and PA. They had a ride on mower we used to love. It same. I used to love it too, but we were never allowed to ride it on our own. Oh, really? To ride the the quad bike and that sort of thing. But we were like, no, I don't know why.

22:16 My PA was very precious about it. I don't know. Although. Yeah, yeah, I don't know. I don't know why. Oh, wow. You know, we've just asked Dad. I can't remember. Well, we'd always have to sit like with him. Yeah. But we could ride the quad bike which is like way more powerful. Powerful than the. Mower. Yeah. Oh, that's crazy. Anyway, so so funny. So at 3:00, Cindy by prior arrangement had dropped. The boys went over to Roberts House or Roberts Daddy's house, where Robert was living at the time and was going to drop the boys there.

22:48 And she ended up staying while they opened. Well, Robert opened the present, so Cindy had bought him a set of saucepans. So I think the idea was that Robert was going to move out at some point. And so I guess she was just trying to give him things to help set him up. Yeah, when he moved out on his own. I love to, though Jay got a bit upset because he had forgotten one of his gifts for his dad. So, you know, the typical Father's Day stall at school, which I just love. Yeah, and Jay had bought him a back scratcher.

23:16 Yeah. And he was disappointed he didn't bring it with him. He's like, it's OK, you can bring it next time you see Dad, you know, like, oh, my God. I just love that stuff. But I also can 100% like the kids think that when they get that stuff from the stall. That's way better than whatever mum gets or whatever for for dad like you know and pays good money. For Yeah, that's right. Yeah. They just think it's like the best, like, Oh my God. I think we've spoken about this on the podcast before, but some of those.

23:38 Oh man, Oh, as I said, I'm like, where do they get this shit? It's. All Teamu baby. I think that like back in the 80s or back in the early 2020 to get them. From there was like legit places that like like that sold like this shit. OK, don't know, like it was insane. Yeah. Oh God yeah. But it's funny how like some of the same stuff I see, you know, that I used to buy. My mum is still at those stalls. When you go to them, it's like what? Oh so bad. Do you remember those those bars of soap that had like a decal on top?

24:09 Oh God, little Rose one. Yes too. Oh, so I used to always buy those for my grandma. Yeah, they hated them. Like why did I think that was a good idea? Because that's what was on offer though, I guess. Yeah, I mean. Anyway, so Jay thought his back scratcher was gonna be. Just imagine him being like, so devastated that that that's the most important gift and we haven't got it. Like, yeah, yeah. Oh God. Yeah, as as Cindy was leaving after dropping the boys off, I think Bailey was a little bit upset about being with his dad.

24:38 I mean, so at this stage, Bailey was only two, yeah, two years of age. And you know, this is a lot of change in a little kids life. It's a lot of change in Jay and Tyler's life. Jay was 10 and Tyler was seven. Yeah. But I mean, I guess they knew their dad a lot longer. Yeah, Bailey had and so to be handed off, he was just feeling a bit sad apparently. Yeah, I'm just wanted his mum, which I I get that. Yeah, get that, too. Yeah. Cindy told Robert that she needed to have the boys home by 7:30 because it was a Sunday and it was a school night and it was time to, you know, get them off to bed.

25:15 Although I believe Cindy was then gonna actually take them over to Stevens to have dinner after that. Yeah. So yeah, whatever. Late night time. Bit of a late night. Oh gosh, Bailey were being exhausted. By that time, because I wonder whether he would have had naps, Who knows, maybe Robert? Well, he had the boys, took them shopping to Kmart, Jay got a cricket ball and Tyler and Bailey both got a DVD each. So I mean, who doesn't love a trip to Kmart? Kmart's way better now than it was then too. Oh yeah, bloody.

25:45 Oh, better bargain. I mean, I just think Kmart, the quality of Kmart's really gone through the roof lately. Bloody love. Oh well. And for our American listeners, Kmart here is not your Kmart in. America, Yeah. So, yeah, just so you know. Google, Google Australia. Yeah, yeah. He then bought the kids KFC for dinner or he they call it Kentucky. Have you heard an interviewed about it? No, it's KFC. What do? You they call it Kentucky like in his into in one of the interviews I was watching is like and then we and I went and got Kentucky for dinner.

26:14 I've never Is it because it's like Kentucky Fried Chicken? Well, yeah, but who calls it Kentucky? It's KFC. Although back in the day did they call it KFC? Back then they would have for sure. The 2000s it was definitely. Case Well, he called it Kentucky in his in. Okay, that's really weird. Yeah, so that would have been like Grove Dalish, because so as we're saying, this is kind of rural area, which we'll see where they're from, Victoria. So yeah, to go into Geelong, it's probably about a 30 minute drive into Geelong.

26:41 And then so on the return trip, coming back through from Cat, from Jetlung at Kmart, going through Grovedale, there is where the KFC is. That was always the for I know the area away point. Yeah, it's the last, last option for any take away. That's true. Then it was. Yeah, back then, I mean even now if you unless you want to get off the highway, that's probably pretty. They started everywhere. A bit like Torquay is pretty chalkers with a few. Oh yeah, if you get Oh yeah, I see what you're saying, but you'd.

27:05 Have that's a bit further off the, yeah, off that that way, colic way. I don't know what really is. Yeah, yeah. There's not a lot out that way, but. Yeah. They then dropped into Robert's sisters for a quick visit, supposedly on the way back to Cindy's. So they just went popped in their Father's Day visit, I guess, like, just to say hi, let the cousins see each other. Yeah. This is where things kind of go awry. So we're talking now the journey from Robert's sister's place to Cindy's home in Winchell Sea or the boys home in.

27:40 Winchell Sea, the Princess Highway. Yeah. Yeah, so. This is a fairly straight 100 kilometer an hour dual carriage way.

27:50 There's it was dark and it was. Like it was really 7:00 PM and in September it would be, yeah. It'd be dark. Dark, yeah. It was a cool night, a fairly cool night. You know, we're still in, or would have been the very, very start of spring, Really. Yeah. So still sort of just coming out of winter. Yeah. It was fairly still wasn't raining. Nothing crazy going on. Yeah, I'm going to go with what Robert reports and then we'll go back and say what the witnesses report. Yep, Yep, Yep. So Robert says that Jay was feeling really cold in the car and so they decided to turn the heater up and he said that.

28:35 Rob says that this then prompted a coughing fit. The next thing he remembers is they're in the water and Jay's shaking him awake, going dad, dad, we're in the water, we're in the water. And with that Jay opens the door. Water rushes in. Rob Robert reckons he then closed the door, not quite sure how, and then the car sank really quickly. He was able to get out. He, Robert, says that he tried to unbuckle the children before he got out of the car. He then makes his way to the shore of the dam. So he's realized by this point that the car is somehow in a dam off the side of the highway.

29:19 He swims ashore, which I think was about 35 or 40 meters from where he surfaced, and he goes to the side of the dam. And from what I can gather, the dam was quite, had very high banks and was quite muddy and slippery. He's climbed out of that and made his way to the highway. And two men by the name of Shane and Tony were driving by on the highway. So they'd actually been in Geelong visiting actually a friend of, of theirs, I think who'd had recently had a baby. And they decided to, oh, they were just sort of heading home for the night towards wind chill sea along the Princess Highway.

30:06 And they see this sopping wet man on the side of the road. And so of course they pull over. I mean, brave, but I guess they're two men. As a woman, I don't know what I would do. I'd probably call Triple O and say, which is our emergency services number. Yeah, and say I've just seen this guy on the side of the road, but I don't think I would have stopped. I don't know. I don't know. It's a really hard one to know. What you would do in this situation, especially what they encountered, were a little bit apprehensive too, because when they get into the car, when Robert gets into the car with them, they were actually put him in the front passenger seat and Tony, the passenger climbed into the back.

30:45 In the thought of mind of like, if this guy is a bit crazy, he can restrain him from behind. Yeah, I mean like. I thought that was very clever. Of very, very clever. Yeah. I mean, not knowing who you're coming across doing this sort of thing. So yeah. Well, what they came across was a wet like saturated man. They he was saying, my boys, my boys, they've drowned. They're in the car, they're in the dam. And these guys are like, yeah, it's all he they could not get a really could not get a straight story on what was going.

31:13 On SO like do you need to call triple O? Like do we need to get people? He actually refused on 2 occasions. And they also then offered to go into the dam. Like, are you saying there's kids in the dam? Like, what do you want us to do? And he was like, Nah, Nah, Nah. They were just point of like, is he even telling us the truth? Like is he like off his head? One of the guys, Shane actually said. I just thought he was having a mental health episode. Yeah. And he was adamant about getting to Cindy's house.

31:37 He also reports, Shane also reports that he mentioned Robert mentioned Cindy's name about 100 times between when they first got to him and when they got to Cindy's house. Yeah. So what to tell Cindy? You have to tell Cindy So what these men do, and they actually later come to regret this action. And it's traumatized them. For life. Yeah, yeah. They get Robert in their car, as you were saying, and they drive under Roberts direction to Cindy's house. Yeah, it was about another 8 kilometers away. Yeah, Cindy was actually thinking, oh, it's about time.

32:16 The kids should be getting home by now. Like he's he's late. He was. It was after 730. Yes. She was in one of the bedrooms or something, closing a curtain, and she hears a car pull up, but she sees the car coming down the driveway and she's like, oh, that's not Robert's car. That's strange. But then she hears this scream like Cindy, Cindy, Cindy. She runs, rushes to the front door and opens up the door. And Robert's like, I've killed the I've. What did he say? I've written down the direct quote.

32:44 I killed the kids. I killed the kids. And Cindy's like what? Like what is going on? And he's like, they're in the dam, Like he's just. Going 1,000,000. Miles going 1,000,000 miles an hour and she's like what the fuck is going on? So what she does is she gets in her car the men. So Tony and Shane go back in their car. Robert goes in the back seat of Cindy's car, which I don't really get, but OK. Cindy reports just speeding down because Robert's directing her where to go. She goes. In one of her interviews, I heard her say I was going 145 clicks down the highway.

33:21 Yeah, yeah, as you would as you. I get to those kids, like, where the hell are they? What is going on? Where are they? Oh my. God. They get to the dam and Cindy then dials 000. Yes, that is one of the most harrowing phone calls I've heard. Yeah, she is desperate. She doesn't know what's happened. She doesn't know what's going on. Robert. 'S not answering her. She's trying to get information out of him, like to relay to them the questions they're asking. It's awful. It's he's, he's not really helping her.

33:52 He's not giving her information. He's not giving anyone anything because the other thing is it's dark. Yeah. So actually, so Cindy actually on the way down to the dam, Yes. Like it took them about 10, 10 minutes to get from Cindy's house back to the dam. She rings Steven and she's like something horrific happened. Somehow, their phone call gets disconnected. He then rings her back, and he's like, where are you? And she? By this stage, she kind of knows where they're going. Or maybe she just arrived on the scene.

34:23 Yeah. So Steven then puts him, his cousin who was visiting him and his two sons, young boys who was the same age as Tyler and Jay, in their car. Yeah. And he Alex actually drives while Stevens still on the phone. Trying to get directions from him, trying to get directions like, yeah, that's right. They get down to the dam and Alex is the first person to have the foresight. Alex is the cousin. I don't know if I said that. Yeah, has is the has the foresight to actually shut drive his car and position his car in such a way that the headlights are illuminating the dam.

34:59 Yes. But what they see in there is nothing. Absolutely nothing there is. No, it's still, it doesn't even like look murky, but Alex notices and then by this stage, police are starting to arrive on scene. I believe the ambulance arrived. So first responders, first people on the scene were paramedics at 8:07 PM, Then the police arrived like within a minute of that, one of the first constables on the scene, he was actually trying to figure out again, I mean, a scene like this would be so chaotic. And I believe some of Cindy's family had somehow been informed.

35:36 So they were starting to arrive on scene. And not only were there paramedics, there were just all types of police, fire engines, everyone was there. So you can imagine the chaotic nature of that. There was a young constable who was one of the 1st police officers to arrive on scene. And he actually tried to secure the site as a crime scene because he's like, we don't actually know what's going on here. Unfortunately, just due to the sheer number of people and the fact that there was so much chaos and so much commotion going on, they weren't they, they didn't actually do that.

36:12 But to this young police officers credit, he actually started putting markers out where he knew, yeah, points of interest would be. Yeah, where he knew the tire tracks weren't from any other car. Yeah. So they would have had to have been from the car that was. Holy shit, This is a this could be a crime scene. They don't even know if it's a crime scene yet. Yeah, like if, if we keep, if all these people keep arriving, we're gonna lose all this and not know what tire tracks. What? So yeah, he started marking things out, which was so like, amazing on him for him to do that so good.

36:41 But the other thing was before even the cops arrived. So Steven has arrived and he he's like, what the hell to like, Robert, what the Hell's going on? What what's going on? And he Steven turns to I'm sorry. Robert turns to Steven and says, can I bomb a smoke? What the fuck? Stephen lost his shit, you know, don't blame him at all. And he literally yelled in it if you don't fucking stop, you know, what are you doing having a cigarette right now? I'm not giving you a cigarette. I'd rather kill you.

37:08 Like. But then Stephen also did what I think any parent would do and he's not these kids parent. Yeah, He went in the water. Yep. And he was trying to find like he was trying to find where the edge of the water was, like from the grass and things like. And then he found his way out into the water and he's trying to feel around, to try and feel where this car would be that's in the water, supposedly. Assumed that the dam wasn't that deep because it's literally just on the side of the road. Yeah like it wasn't very far.

37:34 I'll. Put some pictures up on socials of it. I've got some photos like aerial shots and stuff of how it is. It's kind of almost in like a bit of a, the kind of section of two roads, yeah, two roads where it sort of comes in to put the middle. But having, I mean, they've got the person who owns that land, the farmer who owns that land said that, you know, yes, we can't regularly have cars come off the freeway and have damaged the fence and that sort of thing. But so in the previous eight years, seven other cars had broken the fence and come off the freeway onto that property.

38:04 But none of those had ended up in the dam. This was the first one that had ended up in the dam, so that's. Interesting. The grass between the highway and the dam was very, very long. Yeah, and Brushy. Yeah, yeah, just. Keep that in mind. But yeah, so Steven, he drove down quite a number of times in the water looking for the kids to the point where actually the paramedics that actually said to him, you have to get out because he was he was going to get hypothermia. So. So once the cops arrived and they had divers and things to do that they were like they literally almost had to drag him out to stop him continuously going and looking because he was like as you would have thought, continuing to keep going and finding these kids till you find them and get them out.

38:49 Cindy, I guess as you would be, was just hopeful that there was maybe an air pocket in the car and the kids were just somehow surviving in that in that space. That's all you could hope for. Like, I mean, that's the thing. You weren't going to walk away from it, motherfucker. Oh my God, yeah. Sorry, I think I said the cousin's name was Alex. The cousin's name was actually Aaron, but Steven's cousin. But you know. Yeah, yeah, I didn't even flinch at it. Oh, good. Yeah. So the first responders on the scene basically note the same thing.

39:22 So it was chaotic. It was Cindy was hysterical. Yeah. And asking just where are my kids? Who's going to get my kids? What's going on? Robert apparently was quite silent. He asked also asked the police. Very calm. Cigarettes. Yeah, very calm. I've heard an explanation that the reason he was calm is because he knew what had happened. But to me, if you knew what had happened and you actually gave a shit, yeah, you'd be hysterical too. Like it doesn't matter that you knew in your head that they were dead because I think the the like that juxtaposed with the way.

40:02 That Cindy was behaving hers. She was desperate. She was absolutely desperate because she thought there was a chance, whereas Robert just knew there wasn't a chance. But why did he know? Why did he know? How did he know? And the thing with it, I think there's a dissociative state that you can go into in these moments too, but there's a difference between that again and just acting calmly like I think you could. But he was dissociating. Would you be then wanting a cigarette? That's what I mean exactly.

40:33 Yeah, that's what I mean. There's that's different. Again, what he was doing was a. Dissociative, Stephen. Yeah. There's no there's the reaction of what he to be able to get himself in a person's car, drive all the way to Cindy's and direct her back. That's not dissociative. No. That's someone who's cognitive. Well, he's, he's wanted to see what her reaction was going to be, hasn't he? So change my mind on that. Basically the paramedics check rub it out because I mean, that's just part of what you would do at a scene like this.

41:06 And I guess the thought of potentially treating him for shock because. Which they were treating City for, yeah. Because she was in shock. Yeah. So what the paramedics noted at the time was that all of his vitals came back completely normal. So his blood pressure, his breathing rate, everything just came back, you know, as if nothing had really happened to him. You. Would think at least your blood pressure would be up. Well, you would think so, if not only from the cold, then anything else. But anyway, yeah, the only.

41:42 So the police then did sort of a less, not a formal interview, but they just asked him whether or not like what he thought had happened and just was starting to try and figure out exactly what was going on. Yeah. So he basically says to the police officer who was interviewing him, well mate, I must have like done a wheel bearing and blacked out and like the, you know, the the stories had started on. Maybe it was a coughing fit because you know, the heater was turned up. Really. He actually changed his story 4 times.

42:15 Four times. Yeah, there was four different versions before he came to the coughing fit. Yeah, yeah. And Even so, one of the paramedics. Who was them down? Yeah, right. The, the one of the paramedics actually checked him out on site and it spoke about this. The fact that, you know, yes, people can have very strong coughing fits and can black out. That's a thing. Cough. It's called cough. Syncope, syncope. So that's the thing. And the paramedics said though if somebody's done that though, there's still, it's not like that disappears 5 minutes after the fact.

42:45 There would be there would have been respiratory issues. They would have been able to hear in checking him out and doing his vitals. They potentially should have heard a rattle in the chest or you know, whatever, wheeze or some wheeze or something. But there was nothing. He was cleared entirely. It's probably worth mentioning right now that in the preceding, I think couple of weeks he actually had had a, some kind of, I don't think it was a flu, I think it was a bacterial infection, then flu. Yeah.

43:11 Yeah. With him it probably would have been. And he'd been to the GP for this. Yeah. Did not once complain about coughing to the GP, just complained that he was congested and so in the he certainly. Never brought up that he passed out, no from coughing, no so because later on he eventually he actually says it wasn't the first time, but that was never mentioned at the doctor's appointments editor so. So the GP did give him antibiotics to clear it up, but by the time the day of the accident came, that was like, what, five days later or something?

43:41 So, yeah, when upon examination at the crime scene and then subsequently at Geelong Hospital where he was taken, yeah, there was no evidence of any kind of breathing or respiratory decline in him at all. No wheezing, no crackling, no nothing, no congestion. He was. His chest was completely clear. He reckons he's had these in jail since too. Oh yeah, in front of other people. We'll get to that. So just quickly the four different statements he made. So the first one he said is I must have done a wheel bearing.

44:17 Second one was there was a fire. He told this to Cindy apparently when he when so when he was when Rob was in the car. Well, Cindy was driving to the scene and Cindy was on the phone to Stephen that first time. Apparently that's when he said there was a fire in the car. Must have been because the heater was on. Right. And then he reckons he went into a ditch and then that's like bounced the car and he's lost control. Yeah, right. And even though it's a straight piece of Rd. where the like as in the highway is dead straight.

44:52 Dead straight. Yeah, Yeah. And then he says the coughing fit. Yeah, because that's sort of fit with his narrative. So obviously the cops are searching the dam and all those sorts of things have gone on, but they've, they've taken him back to the police station to interview him and things and find out what's going on. At no point he did he ask about the kids. And even when they get to the point, so at 2:00 AM, they do find the children and pull the car from the dam and they, they do find the children at 2:00 AM.

45:25 So quite some time, it took them a long time to get to that point. So he didn't know necessarily they found them or anything like that. He's never asked. And at one point in the interview, the police say to him, so the kids are, the kids have died. And he's like, Oh yeah, yeah, I know. He goes, the police officer said, mate, do you realize the children didn't make it out of the car? And he said, I figured, I've never been in trouble before. What's the likelihood of what's going to happen to me? That's how we responded to that question.

45:55 Your kids didn't make it out of the car. Oh, yeah. But what's going to happen to me now? Me, me, me. I'm important here. Me, yeah. Piece of shit. Piece of shit, Yeah, just. Crazy. Just just crazy. Yeah, I want to jump ahead, but I'm not going to. Oh, good. So obviously, September 4th, this all goes on the following days. I mean, can only imagine Cindy actually ended up in hospital being sedated. She was absolute an absolute mess, as you can only imagine. In moments of lucidity though she all she would do is ask where her kids were because she I think she was so out of it she just didn't remember necessarily.

46:47 But I'm like if if in that state she's able to ask about her children in Robert's state, why the fuck wasn't he asking about his children? Like it's just dam without them. I don't, I'm sorry. There's no fucking. No. Line here where I would have left that dam without them. Plain simple. Yep, same. I mean, I know it's really hard to say what you would do in a situation like that. Over this week I have gone through. It I know. That many times or what I would do in that scenario, he had a mobile phone with him.

47:20 Well, which no, he claims that because it would, it had been waterlogged, so it didn't work. But when did it get waterlogged? After the car door was opened? Or like he could have used that phone potentially. Yeah, but but let alone all that. I'm sorry. I've I've worked out how each kid would have been attached to me because he said, he said I have only two arms and two legs. How am I getting three kids out? Isn't that disgusting? I mean you you throw the 10 year old out and hope they can just swim to the.

47:48 I'm literally, I've been like, right, the little ones attached to the front. Yeah, the next one's on my back. Yep. And I hold and I grab the other one by the hand and I'm like, yeah, I'm out that door and I'm going out with all three of them. Yeah, like, I don't know how else anyone else would. What? Seriously, what else were you doing? Well, that's no excuse either. OK, Why didn't you save two of them? I don't if that's if that's your excuse. What? You just went, oh can't save all of them, Someone just going to leave them behind in.

48:11 That moment even you got out, you opened that door and got out before you thought of your kids. I'm sorry. I'm diving down until I get I I'm dead. I don't. I'm not leaving that dam, plain and simple. Getting out of that dam and just to get to your exercise to tell her that they're dead. What? What on earth? I'm sorry. After absolutely everything I've been through in researching this. Yeah, that is the thing that I keep coming back to. Yeah. Is the fact that all he cared about. Yeah. Was going to Cindy's house.

48:46 Yep. And seeing her reaction when he told her he'd killed their children. Exactly. I cut. That is the thing I cannot and will not ever get past. And I, I will just, I'll mention it here that there are podcasts class out there. There's 60 minutes article news out there around. If he's potentially him being innocent, I'm just going to say flat out. They go into all sorts of things of like, you know, junk science and all this sort of thing that was used to convict him, right? I don't care. As a juror, I wouldn't have cared less about the fucking science.

49:19 The evidence is there. He climbed out of that dam and went to his ex's house to tell her he had killed his kids. Yeah, that's, that's, that's. That is all I need to know. He's as guilty as fuck and needs to rot in jail. Yep, he is a family annihilator. Yep that's what he is. No question why on earth people keep coming back to this going, but he had a coughing fit. It does exist. You can have that happen. I don't care. I fully. Agree though that yeah, cough syncope is a it's. Absolutely a thing. Totally.

49:51 There are certainly cases where you know that man who was a truck driver. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And. He veered onto the other side of the road and killed somebody in a car. Yes, that was easily provable. He was on the phone to his. Brother at the time. At the time, yeah. And they were able to prove cough syncope in that case. They can't in this case, but also. What the fuck if that was me and I had passed out from a cough syncope episode and my car had gone into that dam. Your actions would be very.

50:19 Too rot in jail like I just if I had done what he had done, I wouldn't want anything else because I deserve that. My kids are dead. I mean, look, if it, I think if it's genuinely an accident, OK, fine. But his actions post the incident don't show that it was an accident. So to me, he's absolutely guilty and he should be rotting in jail because he never tried. He never tried to get them out there. Was no attempt. So therefore, what happened prior even, OK, I'll, you know, if you want to just take that away entirely and go like, yeah, he had that syncopity, syncopy, syncope and yeah, the car drove off, but he didn't attempt to save their lives.

51:01 So that's just as bad. Absolutely, Absolutely. There's nothing that will change my mind and what these people are saying around, you know, these junk sciences and how the the car will get into all that stuff. But like what the car did and things like that. Honestly, just it's forget that the facts are the facts. But the other thing is these theories that they're saying a junk science have been tested in court twice now. Twice. And he was convicted both times. Yeah, so fuck right off. Yeah, stop, stop, stop 'cause it's actually abusing people.

51:35 Yeah. Ongoing. Yeah. Like, I mean, yeah, we'll get, we'll go, we'll get there. When the police and the police rescue divers dove in prior to pull, pulling the car out of the dam, what they found was that the the car was actually nose up. Yeah, no, sorry. Nose down in the dam, so bum up in the air. It was basically vertical and there was a door open. And once they pulled the car out of the dam, they found that Jay and Tyler were both unrestrained. Jay was sort of across the front part of the car and Tyler was in between the backseat and front seat along the console.

52:16 Then Bailey, the two year old, was tangled in his car seat but unclipped. And what they think happened is that the boys, the older 2, tried to get him out and obviously that that didn't go the way they wanted it to. And there's I was reading stupidly, I shouldn't have read this, but and probably now I'm going to repeat it for you guys to hear too and feel awful as well. There's a kind of thought, you know, like, you know, drowning would be like some sort of peaceful way to go. You know, like it's so not those, those boys went through hell because, you know, the body reacts in certain ways of that water entering the body, entering the body.

52:56 They're young children. They're not an adult thinking like forethought of like, you know, even holding your breath for, you know, as long as you can or any of those sorts of things. Those kids would have been yelling dad, dad, like, you know, and, and consuming that water very quickly. But the body still takes a long time to choke, breathe again, try choke, breathe again, try choke. Those kids would have gone through fucking hell, absolutely torture. It's. Just too much. It's awful, absolutely awful.

53:27 So young. Oh, yeah. So what they from what they found of the car, they didn't couldn't find really any evidence of this fact of Jay opening his door either the way he described that happening. They basically said that that's almost impossible. Because. If even if there was an air pocket inside the car and they and Jay's pushed his door open. Yes. Robert then wouldn't have been able to pull it shut. It shut exactly that's true. No, no. They also found that when they pulled the car out of the dam, the headlights were off.

54:06 Now, this was pitch black. So as we're saying, 7:00 PM on a September night, it's dark, you have your full headlights on. The headlights were off. The heater, which Robert claimed was on high because Jay was cold, was off. The ignition was off. The handbrake. The handbrake was on.

54:30 What the fuck? What the fuck? Why? Sorry, why? You? And the headlights weren't just off because the car had been in the dam. They were actually turned off. Yeah. The other thing was that the is that so nobody. Could find the car quickly, like fuck me, fuck me. Yeah, really unusual. And he can't answer those questions. Cindy asked him, Yeah, did you turn them off? And he goes, maybe, but maybe Jay did it. Yeah, he tried to blame Jay. That's right. Oh, I just which this absolutely sends me around the twist.

55:02 The other thing that they worked out was by the speed of what this car entered that water, it actually had to have skipped basically across the surface because it was doing such huge speeds it got. 30 odd meters into the. Dam, it wasn't like it kind of rolled down the hill and rolled into the water and like, you know, that's where you think it would be. You know, there'd be a bit of ground underneath them. It's they were in the middle of it kind of thing. Because lodged themselves. Essentially it was like it skipped across the top of the water.

55:34 What the fuck? Yes, they're doing 100K up on that road, but. But as I said, it was very thick and long grass like you're. Passed out. Accelerating. He's accelerating like that's what they discovered through this, that there was acceleration like if you're passed out limp, right, there's no accelerating like there's you're not doing that. I don't. I mean, I don't know the science behind like if you're limp, whether or not a limp leg can then push like I don't, I don't know. Yeah. But seriously, it just.

56:07 And the fact that he went there was time marks to prove he went around a tree. Trees 222. Yeah, 2 trees. I'll again I'll and some shrubbery. Yeah. That would have potentially at least slowed the car if not stopped it. Yeah. OK. How did that fucking happen if you were passed out dude? Yeah. How'd you turn the wheel Steering. Input the steering wheel, they said to get it to go change direction to that point. I can OK someone you pass out your hand like can move the wheel a little bit, like by turning it as you power it out or whatever.

56:40 I'll have that. But he had to have turned the wheel a full 220°. That takes more than yeah, like a a slip of the arm on the on the steering. Wheel. But then I just wonder also, and this is, I don't know, like could Jay have potentially reached over to try and avoid like to try and move the steering wheel potentially because he was 10, he would have been old enough to. See a tree on But he would have pulled the steering wheel the opposite direction because he would have had to just say yeah he would have pulled the car left, not right.

57:11 Yeah. So not even. That, that was, that was one of my things about the handbrake being on. I'm like, maybe Jay pulled the handbrake because he's like, fuck, we need to stop. Well, not fuck, probably, but I need to stop the car, the household. Yeah, I need to stop the car. Like maybe he pulled that. That was one thing. I was like, yeah, I could explain that away to myself. Yes. But the rest of it, no, I don't think Jay's turned the headlights off. No. Turn the heater up. Done. Any of that. No, no.

57:37 In a panic situation, no one would think to do that. No. Weird. Weird. Then another witness, a witness, does actually claim that Jay was in the back. Not the front anyway, but we can get there. Yeah. Yeah.

57:53 So basically this is where we're sitting at the moment. So everyone sort of, you know, is, is he, did he have something to do with this? Police started interviewing him and this sort of became a bit known that he was being interviewed and one of his very best mates, Greg King. Immediately when this occurred he remembered a conversation he had had with with with Robert a couple of months earlier. So this was in the May or June of 2005, he claims this conversation took place. Yeah, so by September 9th, he gave a statement to police about it because it was really playing on his mind.

58:25 What he claimed was that there was a conversation where he was standing at the front of a fish and chip shop and his kids were inside it getting the fish and chips. Robert was there. Their kids were inside getting that. They were chatting at the car. I think actually Robert, one of them was in a car. One of them was standing next to the car coming. Which Greg went. Greg was in the car and. Rob was outside the car. Sort of talking to him through the window. Chatting there, waiting for their fish and chips basically.

58:49 And as they're chatting, Sydney pulls up Friday night. Obviously like, there. Must be only one fish. One good fish and chip shop in windshield. See. Absolutely. So she pulls up to collect hers, gets out of the car and says hello to both of them and walks into the fish and chips shop and Greg says hi but but Robert doesn't. Ignores. It totally ignores it, completely ignores it. And Greg sort of called him out and said, hey, mate, like you can't do that. You've got to be, you know, amicable, like, you know, being nice and stuff, say hi, like and you go.

59:17 And to which Greg really Robert really like sort of flew off a bit of like, you know, Nah, she's, you know, screw me over and you know, she's taking the good car and she's got the house and now she's living, you know, she's going to marry that bloke Steven and you know, oh, woe with me. And you know, really like, you know, really had put it in for for Cindy and apparently said something along the lines of I'm gonna what is it? What was the words he said? So he said I'm gonna pay Gambino. So pay Cindy back big time by taking away the most important thing to her.

59:49 Nobody does that to me and gets away with it. Quite threatening comments. Like really awful. Now, this really played on Craig's mind really badly. I mean, this is best made of 30 years. This is not just some random guy. That's like saying this is not someone who'd be like, Oh yeah, I'll take my moment in this in the the sun here. I'll, you know, put. Robert Dickhead in it, these were, he was genuinely a good mate of his. They'd grown up together. I've been on footy teams, played together, all that sort of stuff.

1:00:17 Each others weddings. And yeah, they were each others weddings. It's you know, so this was not a nobody. And it really got really bad for him, the trauma of it to the point where he didn't actually even attend the kids funeral. He couldn't. He just felt so traumatized of like what information he felt guilty and he. Felt like if he had of just said something to Cindy after having had that conversation that maybe the kids wouldn't be dead. Yeah, that's his. That's his reasoning. Yeah, which I mean, Can you imagine?

1:00:43 I could imagine like, you know, having a conversation. Some people do say things off off hand of like, you know, and say nasty things and they don't mean it. But then when the exact event of what he said he's going to do happens. And Greg, Greg said that like, Robert was like that he was this like woe. His knee complained all the time, whinged about everything. There was always complaining about money or and and he was very focused on money and possessions and what things kind of looked like to other people.

1:01:11 Yeah. And so Greg was like, oh, yeah, he's oh, here we go. He's whining about money again because, you know, he has to. Oh, yeah, he was apparently that night, like complaining about having to pay child support. Yeah. I'm like, yeah, because they're your kids, mate. Yeah, bare minimum, mate. Yeah. Yeah, but so in, because in the whole process of the of the breakdown marriage, like Robert did not take it well. And that was well known. But he to the point where he did actually seek some help and he went to a psychologist and he was given some antidepressants and things.

1:01:40 He was in that process. So he was diagnosed with a personality disorder, with avoidant personality disorder and, and obviously depression. And so, yeah, he was given Zoloft, I think, and to like treat the depression and he was talking sort of suicidal thoughts and things like that. So he wasn't in a good way. That's and that was known. I mean, even Greg talks about a moment, I think back in sort of maybe the January, February where he had seen Greg like parked in his car and not but not going anywhere.

1:02:17 And like, and he driven past him and kind of like he didn't even see me. Like, you know, as you saw him drove past. Then later on that same day when I saw you down at such and such point, like, you know, but you were just sitting at the at the intersection, like and you know, you didn't see me. I waved to you, but you didn't see me. And Greg said I was trying to line up a truck, like to drive out in front of it and have the truck take him out. But again. Was he? Greg kind of, yeah. So Greg was kind of like, this is just Robert, like he does that.

1:02:43 Like, yeah, he'll talk himself into those sort of sympathy moments of to get sympathy from other people and stuff and didn't really take him too seriously on those threats of those sorts of things. But it was definitely noted by people that he was, Yeah, not in a good way, not in a right frame of mind, I guess, in that he was thinking those sorts of thoughts. Absolutely. But yeah, so poor, poor Greg really wasn't in a good way when he went to the. He ended up having like lots of time off work and he was eventually actually diagnosed with, he had a nervous breakdown and then was diagnosed with PTSD.

1:03:18 Yeah. And so, yeah, the, the, I think the thing that really got me in this is that ripple effect and how many people's lives were permanently changed by this event. It was, it's extraordinary. And I know when things like this happen, that's the case. But when it's three young children and they're murdered by their father, yeah, I just think how profound that is and how significant that is. Absolutely. You know, it's it's untold, actually. We it's immeasurable. Yeah. This is just one person whose life was changed forever.

1:03:52 Because The thing is, Greg was a a bus driver. Yes. And his, the way that it came about that he actually even ended up reporting this to the police is because his boss at the bus depot. Yeah. Was a former police officer and he. All he noticed was that after this incident had taken place that Greg was acting really weird. Yeah, really strange and to the point where he's like, I don't think it's safe for you to be driving buses anymore, mate. Yeah. I really think you need to take some time and take some time, but I, I really think you need to go and say whatever it is that you know.

1:04:24 Yeah, you need to go and report it to the police. And that was what Greg. The impetus Greg used to go to the police and then I think subsequently, you know, sought some psychological assistance as well. Yeah, but that's just, you know, how much that must have been playing on his mind. The thing that gets me back, Greg and I think this is just horrific given his experience throughout this entire situation is once this once these murders went to trial, Greg's testimony was called into into question.

1:04:58 Yeah. So basically Greg ended up making three formal statements. Yes, the first statement as you said was, was that in September? That was, yes, September, September 9th. And then do you know, did you write down when the second one was? It was. Only a few days later was only a few days later and then I think. One was maybe in January. No, yeah, it was December was the third one because because basically they they came away from the second one. And the cop said to him because he started remembering more of the conversation, which and this is the thing, he didn't change his statement.

1:05:29 No, he elaborated on it. He just added more to what? It never actually changed the story. He just elaborated and had more detail. So he was remembering more of it. And so by the time we got to what the the second one, the cop said to him, look, you're remembering more things. Take some time, breathe. You know, like we've got it's don't think we're on you that you have to have this information immediately because he actually did do some recordings as well of conversations he had with Robert about this.

1:05:55 And they said to him, take some time, write down everything that you think of, you know, take a week or you know, and write down everything and then come back to us when you think you've got it all in line. But so he really did take time to do that. And so it was the December he went back with the third statement. Yeah. So he, the things that he added were when Robert said to him about nobody does that to me and gets away with it. Apparently Greg said to him, like, what do you mean by that? Or what does that mean?

1:06:26 Yeah. And he apparently he muttered something, as in Robert muttered something about a dam. Yeah. So that was the first bit that he added. So when the police then basically said to him, said to Greg, we need you to wear a wire and try and get him to recall that conversation and maybe even repeat what he said. Yeah. In the recording, Greg, to his credit, gets Robert to a point where he's talking about it, but Robert just tries to basically coach him through what to say because he's like, he doesn't.

1:06:56 Denies the conversation. The conversation, But he's like, well, what are you telling the police? Because Greg's saying I think the police are going to want to talk to me. Little did he know, they'd already spoken A. Couple of times. But, and he was wearing a wire, but Robert Bait, he doesn't confess anything, but he's like, you know, tell him I'm a really good bloke. I'm a really good, I'm a really good father. I take the boys to the footy. I do this, I do that. But Greg's like, but what did you mean, mate?

1:07:22 Then when you were saying that, you wanted to take away the thing that was most important to her And he's like, oh, it was the car. Yeah, I know. And he kept nobody kept also saying like that. Oh, that was just a figure of speech. Yeah. Like I was just. I was just angry. I was really angry. Yeah. Just tell him I'm a good bloke. Like he really tried to. He certainly didn't didn't say the conversation had happened. So I'm sorry, but Greg's statement is accurate. He was said. So I mean, just say things like, Oh yeah, but I was just angry and like, well, hang on a minute, but you've done what you said, so hang on.

1:07:53 And immediately to then try and coach Greg as to what to say to the cops about him, it just screams guilt. Doesn't it? Yeah. Tell him how good of a dad I am. I'd never do anything like that, no. Now I'm a good bloke, you know that. Tell him, tell him how good a bloke I am. Oh my. God you're a fucking piece of shit is what you are. Such a piece of shit. Yeah, oh, God. So in April 2006 in, he's committed to trial for three counts of murder. There were a total of 49 witnesses called to appear, which I mean, some of them were paramedics, police, some of them were experts, you know, which brought, you know, the scientific side of it.

1:08:36 But there was also then like Greg gave his testimony now his was his testimony was brought into question. Unfortunately, he had a charge on him at the time for reckless injury. I think it was a bit of a, a brawl at a pub or something. Yeah, yeah. I couldn't find anywhere that he was eventually, eventually convicted of that or anything, so I actually assumed he wasn't. I do. I do remember reading that in one of the books it states that he isn't a criminal. So therefore I dare say he wasn't convicted of it.

1:09:08 I think you're right. So, yeah, but don't, don't quote me because I couldn't find it anywhere. Yeah. So at the end of that trial, it was six weeks at ran four and he was found guilty and sentenced to three life sentences of imprisonment. Life. Sorry, three life imprisonment. Oh my God, sorry my brain. Just three life sentences. Three life. Sentences, We'll do it. Yeah. So obviously the jury, they didn't take long to come to that deliberation. I think that was three days they deliberated and came up with that as their conclusion that he was guilty, guilty, guilty three times over.

1:09:48 Greg. I'm Greg. Sorry. Robert obviously appealed that ruling as he's entitled to do. And, but his conviction was overturned by the by the appeal judges and he was granted also bail then and granted a retrial, which, OK, basically the, the reason for that was the fact that the jury had not been informed that Greg had a charge outstanding for him at the time of giving his evidence. Does that really change his reliability and the way he gave his testimony at trial? No. No. Anyway, that was why they granted the retrial in 2010.

1:10:42 He was, I once again found guilty on July 22nd. He was found guilty at his second trial. Now at the second trial, there was a new witness that was also added to the witness pool by the name of Dawn Waite. Now, Dawn didn't come forward first thing because, you know, I can understand this a little bit. She sort of went, oh, they've got the guy, you know, that's fine. I don't need to come forward. So she was. Also undergoing cancer treatment at the time, so she was fighting her own battle. Life quite unwell at the time and I think she's sort of like oh I don't need to hassle myself with that at this time it's.

1:11:21 Being sorted the way it needs. To yeah. And not only that, she had actually back in New Zealand, where she was from, there'd been a car accident where she had reported somebody doing the wrong thing driving. This person had unfortunately then committed suicide because of that, because of that. So she there was, I mean, obviously, a lot of guilt for her around that. So I think her saying, oh, no, I'm out. I don't want any part of that. It's quite understandable with a bit of PTSD on that one, like what's going on there.

1:11:50 So completely understandable why she didn't come forward. Yeah. But when she heard that he was out on bail and a retrial was occurring, she was like, I think I need to say something. She was also by this stage, by the way, passed her cancer treatment and doing quite well. So I think with more health on her side as well as sort of going, oh God, I can't let this go away and not not speak up. She, she came forward now. So what her testimony basically was that she was driving behind that vehicle on the night at 7:00-ish along the Princess Highway, and she noted that the car just kept breaking and like then speeding up and then braking and then speeding up.

1:12:30 So this is a 100 kilometre an hour, yeah. Sorry, Freeway. Freeway, Yeah. And she said the car was going like, on average, about 60 kilometres an hour. So that's significantly slower than the speed limit, yeah, which is screaming and shouting at this person by now would be swearing at them, so. Showing at them for sure. So yeah, she was like, what on earth is this person doing? And she didn't know the stretch of Rd. that well herself. So she was like, well maybe there's a turn off somewhere here and he's looking for that turn off and was like, God, what the hell is she?

1:12:59 Is he doing? And as she got closer to the car, she was like, oh, God, I just want to go around and get away from him. I can just. It's fair enough. Yeah. So she literally overtook him. And as she did that kind of turned to the car, maybe said some expletives, you know, what the fuck are you doing? And so she did take note. She took note of what she saw when she turned to look at the car. And that was the driver of the car looking across to the other side of the stretch of the road. She couldn't get, she couldn't get his attention at all.

1:13:31 He was fixated on looking at where he what was on the side of the road, not in front of him to the side, the right, to the right. Oh, to the right. Yeah, yeah. Sorry, sorry. He's looking to the right, she's passing him on the left I believe, and so he's looking towards the right and so not paying attention to her at all, but he's fixated on looking what's off to the right. She noticed that the three kids were jammed into the three seats in the back, interestingly, and so she and then as she's overtaken him and you know he's a freaking idiot, get off the road, pulled off in front of him.

1:14:05 As she's looked in her rearview mirror, the lights have disappeared. Within seconds, within seconds, this was like, not like. She'd gone so far that she couldn't see the lights anymore. She looked in her rearview mirror, fully expecting to see the two headlights shining, and then in her mind she thought, oh, he's found the turn off to the, you know, to the. Properties or whatever he's going to yeah, and and he's turned off and so. She just kept driving. Yeah. She then went to Colac, stopped in Colac for a meal.

1:14:34 Yeah. And her testimony was that she was at in Colac at 7:15 PM, That's the time on her receipt. And she kept this receipt for years and years and years, but she'd subsequently gotten rid of the receipt. Well, by the time we're talking now 2010 for this retrial five years later, I mean, it's five years later from the incident, so, yeah. But what I find really interesting is the the defense, Yeah, call into question the timing of all this, right? Because they're like, well, how did you get from where the incident took place to Colac to have a receipt for 7:15?

1:15:07 I mean, fucking hell, memories are available. Like, maybe it was 725. Exactly. But that was the thing they used. And I'm like, you don't even fucking have the receipt as proof anymore. You don't know. She just thought it was around 7:15 PM. Yeah, yeah. And 7:15, it puts it in the right time train. Exactly. It's in the right Yeah, zone. And the thing was that she was the following day on the news, she saw this car being pulled out of the dam on the news, which I could get, I could pull up the photos of that.

1:15:36 And she literally went that's that car I was driving past. Like, that's the exact car. Look, I understand they're a common car. I think my dad drove 1, you know, at one stage. But they were a common car. But just to see that car that was driving along that road that she was that night approximately the same time that's being pulled out of a dam, she knew because she was concentrating on the back of that car, she wouldn't know the number plate. She. You know what I mean, She. Also said like it had those like Louvre things on the back window.

1:16:04 She even commented about that the. Fact that she had seen a man driving it with three kids in the car. It's it was the car. Oh, and he wasn't coughing. No, it wasn't. She drove past. That's the other thing, yeah. Yes. He wasn't coughing. Yeah. So that was kind of brought into the mix in terms of witness statements into that second trial, which again obviously resulted in yet another conviction of again, he was convicted of three counts of murder, sentenced to life in prison with and 30. It was a minimum 33 years for parole.

1:16:39 Yep. Which takes him through to about nineteen, 2000 and what, 36 or so? Something like that. Yeah. Before we have to consider the thought of him being released. He tried to appeal that at the Victorian Supreme Court but was rejected. And then again in 2013 he sought an appeal again from the High Court, but again he was turned down. So he has tried every Ave. until recently. Where? Literally 2022 this all kind of came back out again. Yeah, fuck off. Fuck off. So basically what they're saying in terms of wanting a retrial is because they've got all this new.

1:17:24 I'm just putting this in air quotes for those not watching us evidence to show you that he that you know there's reasonable doubt is what they're what they're saying. Nope, not in my mind the. The problem is so much has changed. So what they're saying is that the evidence that the prosecution used in terms of the way the car moved and the inputs that it had and all the bits and pieces that went along with that side of things, is the technology that we have now will be more accurate in predicting what happened.

1:18:02 However, since 2005, when this incident happened along that stretch of road, 1,000,000 cubic meters of dirt has been moved. It has been now made into a dual carriageway instead of single, single lane and to a route to near where the dam is in and around the dam. There's significant changes to the topography because of all of that earth moving. Yeah. And because there's more vegetation now, the grass is actually no longer like that grassy stuff anymore. It's like more, I don't know, shrubbery type stuff.

1:18:38 But there's there's actually no way that they can get an accurate. Reproduce. Reproduction of what happened, Yeah. There was also all this stuff about the car sinking too quickly and or not quickly. Like, there's so much conjecture around the evidence that was used in both of the trials. But as I said to you before we started this, Yeah, this evidence has been tested twice now in a court of law. Yeah. And both times he was found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. Exactly. So fuck right off, leave this family annihilator in jail where he belongs.

1:19:14 Yes and why are we giving him the time of day now? Can I just say really quickly please, what I think? So with this 60 minutes age, whatever I think this is just disgusting journalism. I I have a lot of respect, generally speaking, for some of the journalists actually involved with this. Same. That's what I'm but in. This. In this instance, I just cannot actually believe they're going down this path. No, I think what they want is another Kathleen Folbigg. This is the thing they want their moment of just like, oh, we've got someone out of jail that you know, he's been wrongly convicted.

1:19:48 This isn't the guy. No, this is not the guy in this environment. Kathleen Folbigg, Absolutely. Lindsay Chamberlain? Absolutely. Well, no, I think that is the way it should have been for now, but no, for real. But. Into Kathleen Folbigg case, she was imprisoned because four of her children died of essentially natural causes. But somebody decided that four kids, well, that's more than a coincidence. Yeah. And so she was jailed for that. That is a completely different set of circumstances. Her children died from medical episodes.

1:20:23 These three boys died because they were murdered by their father. Yes, yes. That's very, very. Different, it's so different and it's, and in the environment we're living at the moment of like domestic violence is so prevalent in Australia and then we're deciding to go down this track and look at this guy and try and get him out of jail. When there is so much evidence pointing to the fact that this guy had a personality that could do this. He was, you know, this is something he was very capable of.

1:20:48 We're not talking about someone who genuinely had guilt, genuinely tried their best to get those kids out of that dam. He fucking did nothing. He needs to rot in jail. Stay away from it. I just don't understand why these are just very credible journalists are chasing this. It's not there. It's just not there. It's actually distressing. And I feel like for Cindy Gambino, I mean, it's awful that she passed away in 2022, the age of 50. I mean, I only, I can only say she probably broke, she died of a broken heart.

1:21:19 I'm sorry. She had two more children to Stephen like, well, they got married. They got married and had a, you know, a lovely life together and it brought these two kids into the world, which is so lovely. But she, I mean, I know she made statements around the fact of I never know how to answer the question of how many kids do you have? Which I could only the sympathy for that. I just have so much. Can you imagine saying, because she said, if I say I have five children, then I have to explain where the other three are.

1:21:45 If I only say 2, I'm dismissing that those other three children never existed like. That's just impossible. Awful. I think it's just really worth noting very quickly too, because I think people will probably remember this or those who know this case. Yeah, when this first happened, Cindy really supported Robert, Yes, because she just couldn't fathom the thought that he would ever do anything like. She was too highly brainwashed in an abusive relationship she was unaware that she was in. That's right.

1:22:14 And so it wasn't actually until the second trial that she'd come around. I think she'd had some extensive counselling and she had been working really hard to, I don't know, just process what had happened to her as in in the relationship and then subsequently post the relationship in relation to the murder of her children. And by the second trial she was well and truly understanding of exactly what happened in the situation and was fully on board in terms of assisting the prosecution. So I think a lot of people say, oh, but if Cindy thought it, well, no, no, no, Cindy was actually an abused woman, and she was the target of this, yes, final act of revenge against her.

1:23:02 Yeah. This was to cause her the most pain that anyone could ever have inflicted upon them. And that is literally what he did. And as you said, she died at the young age of 50. Yeah. She had two more young sons, plus her stepsons, so Stephen's sons, who she has now left behind. Which is just awful. It's so it's just more tragedy. There is the only one positive thing out of this in that a new law has come into play as well. Where? Because when the boys passed away and they purchased plots for their for the burial, Cindy purchased the plot next to them to bury next to them.

1:23:41 Right. Yeah. So then Robert went and purchased one also too. And at the time, Cindy was, you know, OK with that because she actually believes that Robert was, you know, he was innocent of this. And so that was fine. He purchased the plot next to them as well. And then they'll all be buried together as time's obviously gone on. Clearly that, you know, he's been convicted then of their murders. And then obviously Cindy has passed away. So she's now she's buried with her boys. And but she, she had, Stephen had to request Robert from jail to get permission for her to be buried there like that alone.

1:24:19 He still had further abuse and further power. So then Stephen turned around and he has worked with this and now his rights have been taken away from him in jail, that someone who has been convicted of a crime like this cannot have power over that. And so now he won't. He can't be buried there either, so he can't. So now that Sydney will be with their boys, just the four of them, and Robert will not. So Steven is Steven's a great. Hero Hero in this. Story. A magazine. Yeah. I'm glad that she met someone who was like that.

1:24:52 Yeah, me too. So yeah, that's awful that in in death that man could still have power over her and still abuse and this abuse continues. And that's where the media suck shit that they keep this abuse happening for these people and that is not OK. We've got to out court system and the media needs to be better at protecting women and children particularly because they are more in this situation, more likely to be in that situation. I'm not dismissing that men are in abuse situations, absolutely. But it is a bit statistics point in a direction where it is more prevalent that women and children need to be protected in these situations.

1:25:30 Absolutely, Yeah. Well done. That was a pretty heavy one. Oh yeah. So, you know, if you got to the end, well done. If you need support, we've got different types of support listed in our show notes below. But please seek assistance in whichever country you live if that's something that you need to absolutely to discuss with somebody. Because, you know, the murder of three innocent young, beautiful boys is just, it's a lot. But I think it's also important for us to cover cases like this because we're bringing light to a situation that, I don't know, is just so damaging to so many people.

1:26:11 And I think awareness is everything when it comes to these types of things and knowing what to look out for and also knowing that people like this in situations like this exist in our communities and you never know what somebody's going through. No, no. Yeah, absolutely. Well, thank you very much everyone. Yeah. Thanks for joining us. So next for the next few weeks, actually, we've got a little bit of a treat for you in some ways. So because we're coming up to the Easter break over here, which is in Australia, we also have school holidays around this time and Meg and I are doing various things over that time.

1:26:49 We are actually going to bring you a little mini series of little mini episodes over the next few weeks focusing on school shootings in the US. So we're going to pick a few, a handful and cover those, and there'll be just a few mini episodes coming out over the coming weeks. And how many we can get. Oh, we're gonna do our best. We were like, can we keep them to 30 minute? Episodes. I remember when we started this podcast and we said we were gonna do 20 minute episodes, Emma. I remember that. I don't even think we get the bands done in 20.

1:27:20 No, not usually.

1:27:23 That's all right. Well, stay tuned for that and then, you know in the next in the coming weeks, we'll be back to our regular full programming for. Sure, but that's why you still get something to consume over the next few weeks. Yeah, that's it once we're out of action. That's it. Yeah, we're. Having fun. We're not out of action, but yeah. We're out of podcasting action just because it's really hard to record podcasts when your kids are at home with you. Exactly, especially when you're dealing with the content.

1:27:48 We are also the noise. Just be horrific. Just check out the end of episode the Carol Baskin one to find out what you'd really be listening to if we entertain these allowed children. Yeah. Yeah. No thank you. No. No one. No, no. All right, thank you everybody for tuning in. As always, please like the podcast, follow it in whatever app you're listening to it in. That really, really helps us. Join us over on TikTok. Meg's made a few of our videos go a bit viral again lately. DMS on Instagram, Facebook, we check them all, we read them all.

1:28:20 We try really hard to respond to them all, so thank you for those who do engage. We absolutely love it. Really sparks a bit of joy in our days. So thank you very, very much. Always open to suggestions and I think we mentioned a few episodes ago about giving us suggestions on what you might like to see if we do a Patreon. So please give us those suggestions as well. That would be great. Perfect. Excellent. Thanks, everybody. Stay curious. Crime besties. Bye.