Episode 41 - Jai, Tyler & Bailey Farquharson

0:15 Welcome back to Crime Besties, to another episode.

0:18 Thank you so much for joining us again.

0:20 Oh yes. Welcome everyone.

0:22 We have arrived. We're here.

0:23 We're happy. You sound very congested.

0:26 Today very congested. Just leave me alone.

0:28 It's it's your turn, Yeah. Turn, Yeah, we, we share around

0:33 here and we're good at that. Yeah, yeah.

0:36 Are you feeling okay though? Yeah, I'll be right.

0:39 Yeah. I'll pull myself together once

0:40 we get into it. I think I'll be right.

0:42 Yeah. It's just, you know, hits the

0:44 head all good. It's.

0:46 Such a miserable feeling. It makes you appreciate though

0:49 when you're not feeling sick. Like I'm actually feeling really

0:51 good now. Yeah.

0:52 I feel like these things are said to, you know, knock into,

0:54 you know, get motivated or whatever, like it's, it's all

0:56 not life's not that bad. You can feel like this more

0:58 often. Yeah.

0:59 Yeah, that's right. Yeah, that's right.

1:01 So that's all good. What you've got, Yes, very good.

1:04 Soldier on. Absolutely.

1:06 Yeah. How has your week been?

1:08 You had from being not 100%. Not 100% this week, no, but

1:13 busy. It's just, it's just never

1:15 ending. We had a lovely day out on

1:18 Saturday, drinking lots of wine for a friend's birthday and

1:22 things. That was very nice.

1:23 That was nice, the weather. Was stunning.

1:25 And we were sitting outside. It was just beautiful.

1:28 Yeah. Went out to the Yarra Valley.

1:29 It was just delightful. Very nice.

1:32 Very. Delightful.

1:33 Yes, yeah, those days are good. I mean, God, that I felt like

1:36 the tasting was never gonna end like.

1:39 The guy that we had who's doing the tasting, I mean, you know,

1:44 no shade to people who do that for a job because I mean, thank

1:47 God, we've got, oh, we put a porous wine when we we need

1:49 them. But he was a little odd.

1:54 A little odds. Yeah, yeah.

1:56 But look, we, I think we tasted something like 10 wines at one

1:59 wine. Yeah, it was fantastic.

2:01 And they were all like, nice. All really nice, yeah, came home

2:04 with a few bottles and yeah, nice, nice lunch afterwards.

2:09 It was, it was a lovely. Day, it was very nice.

2:11 Yeah. So that that was really good to

2:12 do that. That was really good.

2:13 But then he has since then I've just sort of felt like shit.

2:15 Oh. That's horrible.

2:18 Yes, but it's all good. I'm, I'm kind of, I'm tapped out

2:21 for tonight and someone else is doing all the running around

2:23 with the kids. So I've got work stuff and it's,

2:26 yeah, just never. There's just always something

2:28 there's. Always something.

2:30 Yeah. It's so true.

2:31 Yeah, it's so true. I mean, it's, you know, it's one

2:33 of those things where you try and practice gratitude for these

2:37 things and you're like, I'm really glad I get to do this and

2:39 I'm really glad I get to do that.

2:40 But then there are days where you're like, I wish I didn't

2:43 have to do your, you know, all that running around.

2:46 But I also love the fact that the kids are happy, willing and

2:49 able to do all that stuff. Yes, that we, you know, ferry

2:52 them around to, taxing them around to.

2:54 Oh, this is it. They love it, absolutely love

2:56 it. So yeah, I know like tonight my

2:59 2 are just ecstatics. They've got like jumper

3:01 presentation at footy and stuff and it's that's like life to

3:05 them. Yeah.

3:05 So yeah, it's very, it's very cute.

3:08 Yeah, stupidly, I think probably stupidly took on the trainer

3:13 role for both of the kids team. I'm literally claiming that

3:16 that's my contribution as well, because you were standing next

3:18 to me when you did it. Yeah, yeah, I'll.

3:20 Yeah, I'm with her. Sure, sure.

3:24 I'll let you hand out the snakes when the kids come off with a

3:27 Jarred finger because that's generally what I do and then

3:30 turn around and send them back on.

3:33 But what that means is so these days to be a trainer for an

3:37 under eights and an under elevens team, you need to do a

3:42 first aid in CPR. Fair enough, that's fine.

3:45 You then need to do an Emergency Management response coordination

3:49 course and a sports trainer course as well.

3:51 Oh. God, how much time is that

3:54 taking to store those? So I think if you do all of them

3:57 in one go, it's 9 hours face to face and three hours online.

4:01 Oh. I think our like I've done, I do

4:04 the full first aid for work and stuff and that's yeah, three

4:07 hours at least offline and three hours on site.

4:10 Yeah. Like, yeah, so I'm doing, I've

4:12 done that. I've done that bit, but now I

4:15 have to do the others, which we are actually recording today on

4:18 a Wednesday because you've got some stuff going on at work on

4:22 Friday. But it actually worked out

4:24 really well that I, that we've got Friday off because it meant

4:27 that I can do the course on Friday.

4:30 Oh man, heaven forbid we should actually get a day off to

4:33 ourselves. Like what?

4:35 What's? That you know.

4:37 You know, what really shits me, though, is the lack of

4:40 volunteers because it's always the same people putting their

4:43 hands up and yeah, you know, it just doesn't, you know, these

4:49 junior sporting clubs in particular.

4:51 Yeah, run of the kindness of volunteers. 100% like, yeah, if

4:56 no, people don't put their hand up, they don't exist.

4:58 And I feel so bad for that because, I mean, being there,

5:01 the president of the club standing up saying, you know, if

5:03 we don't have people volunteering, then this doesn't

5:05 exist, you know, and trying to get people to volunteer.

5:08 And it's like, and there's crickets from a crowd of people,

5:11 Yeah, you know, and I mean, everyone's busy.

5:14 Everyone's busy. But if you want your kids doing

5:16 these things. That's right.

5:18 Yeah, yeah, exactly right. Yeah.

5:19 And look, I mean, everyone contributes in different ways.

5:21 I get it. Like some people, you know,

5:23 can't do certain things. I find it hard being on my own

5:26 trying to manage those things. But like, you know, obviously

5:29 you're pitching where you can, but yeah, I mean those people

5:32 that do have that, if they've got that bit more time, like,

5:34 you know, that sort of stuff that it's really helpful and

5:36 people. Very helpful.

5:37 I know I nearly put my hand up for trainer for my older son's

5:40 team that 'cause it got to a point of like no one else was

5:43 doing it. And I'm like, I can, I'm only

5:44 there every second week. Like I'm not, I, I can't do it

5:47 on my own if someone else will do it with me, like kind of

5:50 thing. And ended up we had like four of

5:51 us like that, put our hand up the the club were like, we can't

5:54 afford to pay for that many people to have to do the course.

5:57 And yeah, when I hear it's that long, it's like, well, yeah.

5:59 And that'll cost a fair bit of money.

6:01 It does. So I mean the club pays for it

6:03 as you said, but it does cost a significant amount of money.

6:05 Yeah, I. Mean at least I've done most of

6:07 that training, but yeah, there'd be parts I'd still have to add

6:10 to that. So yeah, we ended up figuring

6:13 worked out out of the four, two better placed people to do it.

6:17 Oh, that could manage on their own.

6:18 But I'm like, I'll be like, you know, child Wrangler of

6:22 siblings. Yeah.

6:24 You know, like in support in other ways, Yeah.

6:25 Like, you know, I'll be spare mum, like for those ones that

6:28 are around the edges on the days that I'm there, like, perfect.

6:30 Yeah. Just got a pitch in.

6:32 That's it. Yeah, that's exactly right.

6:34 Yes, I've got a couple of shout outs for today.

6:37 We've got Emma K Walker and Leanne Robinson, both who've

6:40 contacted us in the last week or so.

6:43 So thank you ladies. We really appreciate the

6:45 positive feedback and and everything that you've sent

6:49 through. So thank you.

6:50 And Emma's all the way from them, from America.

6:53 I love that no, when you know in so we release our podcast

6:57 through like the Spotify creator platform and you can actually

7:00 see a breakdown on there of the nationalities of people who

7:04 listen to us. You can see a breakdown of

7:06 gender and age. You might be surprised to know

7:09 that most of our listeners are female and sort of in that I

7:12 think it's like 30 to 49 bracket is the biggest, biggest one.

7:16 So thanks. Shout out to all you ladies too.

7:19 We've got a nice, nice smattering of men in there as

7:21 well. Yeah.

7:22 But I, what I've noticed lately is when we first started, I

7:26 think our, I think was something like 98% Australian listeners.

7:30 And now we're like at 90% Australian listeners because our

7:33 base overseas has grown so much. So we've got listeners from so

7:37 many different countries around the world.

7:38 We've got UK, USA, we've got a few in Malaysia who seem to

7:43 listen every week. So yeah, so thank you so much to

7:46 everybody, all of our international listeners.

7:49 Yeah, we love it that you're here, but I don't know, I just

7:52 always assumed maybe Australians would listen to us, but I hadn't

7:55 even really considered that international people would find

7:57 us, let alone listen every week. I love that.

7:59 And I think Emma was, it was recommended to Emma by a friend

8:02 of hers and it's like, well, yeah, so it's growing

8:04 internationally. Like I love that because I mean,

8:07 the cases we do, I mean, we try and mix it up.

8:09 We don't just do Australia. We probably do more Australia

8:11 than we do other, but that's probably because it's our

8:13 wheelhouse with what we know most.

8:15 But yeah, we love listening, love having a go at those

8:17 international ones too. So yeah, yeah.

8:19 So if you've got cases from internationally that you want us

8:22 to, yeah, we'll give it a go. Like, we'll look into it.

8:25 So yeah, please send them through, send through any case

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8:31 something new and interesting to research and and have a chat

8:34 about. Definitely awesome.

8:37 Are we ready to get into today's case?

8:39 Today's case is, yeah, maybe angry, but yeah, yeah.

8:42 Look, I think just before we really get into it, I think so

8:46 today we're talking about the Farkwesen boys.

8:50 So Jay Tyler and Bailey Farkwesen, if I think Megan, I

8:57 both have a very similar stance to where we sit with this case.

9:01 And if you want to find out different types of information,

9:05 there is other stuff out there. But we have come at this from a

9:10 certain angle. And if that angle is not for

9:13 you, move on and listen to somebody else, yeah.

9:19 Yeah. I think that's.

9:20 Probably the best way to put it. Best way to put it, All right,

9:23 Robert Donald William Farquharson was born in 1969.

9:27 Do you know, could you find his date of birth anywhere?

9:29 Oh my God, no. No, all I know is 1969.

9:33 I don't know why his date of birth is withheld, not even in

9:36 the court. I couldn't find it anywhere.

9:37 No, that's a really weird one, because there's no reason for

9:40 it. Everyone knows who he is, what

9:41 he looks like. Yeah.

9:42 Where he is, yeah. Anyway, very very very strange.

9:47 Yeah. His childhood and upbringing

9:51 were fairly stock standard. There was nothing in particular

9:55 that came up in my research anyway that that meant he had

9:59 any sort of weird and wonderful upbringing.

10:01 I think his childhood was very much what an A standard

10:06 Australian upbringing would be in the 60s and 70s.

10:09 Agreed. Yeah, nothing.

10:10 Nothing crazy. Nothing stood out.

10:12 What? So just very, very standard.

10:14 Yeah, No, yeah. In February of 1990, Robert met

10:19 Cindy Gambino. Yeah, so I think they met at a

10:22 pub or something. Is that right?

10:24 So like three friends sort of thing, yeah.

10:26 Yeah. And they, I think they hit it

10:31 off straight away. No.

10:32 No, not that they didn't hit it off, but they were just.

10:35 There was nothing there between them.

10:38 Not according to. Well, I think it depends on who

10:41 you ask. In that context, 'cause I think

10:43 Robert was quite. Robert was very taken with her,

10:46 but right from the get go he was not in that she was it's that's

10:49 just Robert. Yeah, that they became friendly

10:52 like there, but there was she was not keen on him in any way.

10:56 I think she had a partner at the time or not long.

10:59 I think she'd recently split from someone.

11:02 She did have a boyfriend who passed away in a car accident.

11:05 Yeah. Which was really horrific.

11:08 Yeah. Robert was just, he was a very

11:10 much a background person to her. He he wasn't anyone.

11:12 An acquaintance. Yeah, yeah.

11:14 And they became friendly. And then there was a point where

11:16 she was in a bit of financial trouble.

11:19 She needed a bit of help and he did help her out financially,

11:22 but all these things to me were just.

11:24 White night, Saving the day, Yeah.

11:26 Yeah, yeah. And I think she sort of, I think

11:28 got to a point where she almost felt like obligated that she had

11:31 to take it to a next level because he was helping her.

11:35 And being so nice to her. Yeah, yeah.

11:38 I'll, I'll say it once and I'll say it many times throughout

11:41 this. Cindy Gambino was his hostage,

11:44 not his partner. Yeah, yeah, He targeted her a

11:48 little bit, I think personally. I think so as well, yeah.

11:51 I think the fact that his account of their first meeting

11:54 was that it was like sparks flying, sparks flying, love at

11:58 first sight sort of thing is, you know, given the

12:02 contradiction then to what we know from Cindy reporting the

12:05 exact same incident, yeah, I think that says a lot.

12:08 And that, I mean, that's that story of her.

12:10 They've been, they were friends, you know, kind of thing.

12:12 And then just she, yeah, she was just, she very much.

12:15 There was even a comment that was made around that she was,

12:18 there was no physical attraction at all.

12:22 And she very much felt like she was sort of like settling like

12:24 that's what was on the table for her.

12:26 And that's what she did. It wasn't.

12:29 There was no attraction or. Yeah.

12:32 Yeah, more to it than that. Yeah, yeah.

12:35 In October of 1994, their first son, Jay was born.

12:41 Then a few years later, in July of 1998, their second son, Tyler

12:47 was born. Yeah, they actually got engaged

12:50 in in this time. Actually, I think they got

12:52 engaged when Cindy was pregnant with Jay.

12:55 Yes. So in 1998.

12:56 They fell pregnant like six months after they were sort of

12:59 officially dating, like kind of stuff.

13:01 She fell pregnant, Yeah. And then.

13:02 Yeah. And then he would propose when

13:04 she was pregnant. Yeah.

13:06 And then? And then in December, oh sorry,

13:08 in two in the year 2000, they got married and then in December

13:12 of 2002, they welcomed their third son named Bailey.

13:16 So I think as the story goes, Robert was very keen on on son

13:22 one and son 2, but not so keen on having that third child.

13:25 He. Wasn't even present that much

13:27 apparently with the first two in terms of like, you know,

13:30 assisting around helping change nappies or he was.

13:34 That was very much Cindy's job was raising the the children.

13:38 He would sort of come in at the end of the day and rile them up

13:40 on, you know, right on bedtime, that sort of stuff that those

13:43 sorts of things happened. Apparently he had a bit of an

13:46 odd relationship with Jay that he would sort of, I don't know,

13:51 like just tease him a lot and which would upset Jay a lot,

13:55 which was sad. Very sad.

13:57 Very, very sad. Yeah, it's it's it's interesting

14:05 to me whenever I hear stories like this, it takes 2 to tango.

14:11 And if you're not wanting a third child, like, I mean, I

14:15 know how babies are made, but I also have know how babies are

14:18 not made. And if that's not a discussion

14:21 that's had been had or whatever, or even if, you know, the

14:25 pregnancy happened despite best efforts at some point, how could

14:30 you be like, oh, I just really didn't want that child and for

14:32 that to be something that people.

14:33 But I think you wanted to keep Cindy, so if she's pregnant, she

14:38 has to stick around. She's.

14:40 So do you. Caught there?

14:42 Do you think that was a deliberate thing?

14:44 Like, Because from what I've read, I don't know that Bailey

14:48 was necessarily planned. No, no, I don't think that it

14:50 was planned really even consciously in that sense, but I

14:53 think that it was he was actively not not trying like

14:58 kind of thing. It was that whole idea of like,

15:00 well, I think look, Cindy's quoted a bit as saying like, you

15:03 know, even at the wedding, you know, getting married, she was

15:05 like, I don't really love him, like I don't know why I'm doing

15:09 this, but she's got two kids to the the guy, like, you know, he

15:11 kind of I think she felt like she was trapped and so, well,

15:15 this is what you got to do. Like, you know, this is what

15:17 what this is what happens. You have babies with someone,

15:19 you get married like, you know, it's.

15:20 And I think that then as the marriage wasn't, it wasn't

15:24 horrific, She wasn't she. And I think that's where this

15:26 this, you know, this abuse thing happens that, yeah, no, I'm not

15:30 being physically abused. So therefore there's no abuse.

15:32 There's abuse that can happen that's not physical.

15:35 And I think she was very unaware of it kind of thing.

15:38 And so she's like, why? Why am I not feeling right?

15:41 Why this isn't right? And I think he's sensing that

15:43 she's not happy. Yeah.

15:46 And the the marriage isn't really working, but how else?

15:49 So, but I've got to keep her around, so I'm not gonna not

15:53 have a baby with her. Yeah, OK.

15:54 Another baby means that she stays that that traps her again.

15:57 So I think that as much as he doesn't want another kid that's

16:00 hers, that's for her to worry about the kid.

16:01 Well, this is the. Thing isn't it because she was

16:04 doing the lion's share of the of the child rearing?

16:07 Yeah, I think he never got up overnight.

16:10 He didn't he wouldn't even change a nappy.

16:12 No. So that meant Cindy was tied to

16:16 the house and to the boys. Yeah.

16:18 And I know as moms, of course you do that for your children.

16:21 And she loves them so much, so much as she would.

16:25 But yeah, yeah, it's hard work. Absolutely, and to you know, you

16:29 you do it going into it thinking you've got a partner for that

16:31 person to then not be doing their their share of the work.

16:34 That's not cool either. Not.

16:37 Crazy. Yeah, by just no, hold on,

16:41 sorry. In 2004.

16:42 So Bailey was born in 2002, a couple of years after they got

16:45 married. They separated amicably.

16:49 Yeah, depending on who you ask. Yeah, as much as you can.

16:53 I think so any. Separation is going to be, you

16:54 know, a bit volatile. I guess so.

16:57 But in in, I think by amicably they mean that they were still

17:00 communicating. Yeah.

17:02 And had agreed on different sort of aspects to do with the

17:06 children in terms of who would have access when and how that

17:09 would all work. I don't think they had any sort

17:11 of formal legal arrangement at all.

17:13 I think they were just trying to work it out among themselves.

17:16 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Around this time, so not long

17:19 after the split, and I'm not quite sure whether there was

17:22 maybe some crossover, Cindy gets together with a man by the name

17:26 of Steven Mules. Well, they were building a

17:29 house, Cindy and Robert and as part of with building the house,

17:34 there was some work being done in the house and this and Steven

17:37 was working on that I think. Yeah, he laid the slab.

17:39 No, he laid the slab. Yeah, that's right.

17:41 So he was there, so he'd got to know both of them and he'd

17:43 actually become friendly with Robert and they were, you know,

17:47 quite reasonable mates, you know, chatting at them that

17:49 what's what's and all those sort of things.

17:51 But there was a bit of sparks between, yeah, between Cindy and

17:54 him, which he had not long separated from his ex as well,

17:58 his wife. And he knew how that worked.

18:00 So I think rightly so, he'd done the whole like, yeah, there's

18:04 something here, but I'm not entertaining that unless, you

18:07 know, the time's right for everyone.

18:10 So I think he that between them, they had sort of worked out

18:12 that, yeah, this is there's something here, but let's do

18:14 this the right way. Absolutely.

18:16 And they, they did do that because his testimony, even by

18:21 the time the incident that we're about to talk about happened in

18:24 2005, yeah, they weren't even officially really together then

18:28 because he wanted to wait until the divorce had gone through.

18:31 Yeah, make it real official that that.

18:33 Was that's right before they like started thinking about

18:35 moving in together and actually really integrating themselves

18:38 into one another's life? Yeah, so they were friends, you

18:41 know, with, you know, a bit of attraction.

18:43 Yeah. But at that point, but yeah, no,

18:46 I think like, you know, great bloke, good on him.

18:48 Like, you know, and well done to Cindy and him for doing it the

18:50 right way and trying to navigate it really carefully.

18:53 And this is the thing, no matter how carefully you did that,

18:56 that's, I mean, that is, you know, as ideal a situation as

18:58 you can get out of two very adult people mature, doing that

19:02 the right way, protecting, you know, a bit of Robert's feelings

19:04 too and all those sorts of things.

19:06 Well. Stephen also was for him, he it

19:07 was a protective thing for his own children.

19:10 So he had two sons from his first marriage, and he said he

19:14 didn't want to introduce his kids into a volatile situation

19:17 either. And he wanted to know what was

19:18 where it was going to go or whether it was even going to go

19:20 anywhere because he didn't know whether like whether the

19:25 finality of the relationship between Cindy and Robert was

19:28 actually what? Yeah, she was saying someone

19:30 changes their mind, you know, that's it.

19:33 Yeah. Yeah, so 4th of September 2005.

19:38 Father's. Day, Father's Day.

19:39 So yeah, in Australia we have Father's Day on in September,

19:42 Sunday of September, Yeah, I think in other countries it

19:46 might be June and all those sort of things, but yeah, for us it's

19:48 in September, 1st Sunday. That's fair, yes.

19:52 So Father's Day. What a day, Yeah.

19:53 It was not Roberts weekend to have the boys.

19:58 So I believe they're sort of. Loose custody arrangement was

20:02 that Cindy had them during the week, and then every second

20:05 weekend, Robert would have the boys for the weekend.

20:08 Yeah. Robert was living at this point

20:10 with his dad. Yeah.

20:11 And so he didn't. He hadn't quite found a place of

20:16 his own yet. So and Cindy, I believe, had

20:20 quite still quite a good relationship with, with her ex

20:24 in laws. And so it was quite comfortable

20:27 for her to go over there and, you know, see the boys and

20:30 whatever pick up and drop off and that all that was all all

20:32 fine. Yeah.

20:34 On the morning of Father's Day, Cindy, basically they discussed

20:42 it and Cindy had said to Robert, you're more than welcome to see

20:45 the boys. I can.

20:46 Drop It wasn't actually his weekend.

20:47 No, it wasn't. His weekend, Yeah.

20:49 So she said, You know, I'll drop them to you in the afternoon and

20:52 you can bring them back to me after dinner.

20:54 Yeah. So in the morning, I think they

20:56 went to Cindy's parents home in the morning.

21:00 Oh, no, sorry. In the morning they went and

21:01 visited Steven. Yes, that's right.

21:03 And they gave him. I love this.

21:05 They gave him an electric walk. Yes.

21:07 And a photo collage of him and his boys, which I thought was

21:11 really nice. So it's very thoughtful.

21:12 Yeah. And then because he got the

21:15 walk, Steven then invited Cindy and the boys back for dinner

21:18 that night. And he was going to cook up a

21:19 nice stir fry in the electric walk.

21:24 After that they went, Cindy took the boys to her parents home to

21:27 go and see her dad. And they had presents and

21:30 morning tea there. And I believe from what I can

21:33 gather. So they lived in Winchell Sea,

21:35 which is sort of fairly semi rural area.

21:38 Yeah. And I think Cindy's parents

21:42 lived on an acreage and apparently that morning Cindy's

21:45 dad got Jay to mow the lawn. They had to ride on the lawn

21:49 mower and paid him 20 bucks to do so. 20 bucks Jeez for a 10

21:53 year old. Yeah, that, I mean, God, early

21:55 2000s too. That's good money.

21:57 I. Love that for Jay.

21:59 Absolutely. Yeah.

22:00 Good audience. And he loved doing it too.

22:01 It wasn't, he was a chore. Which I mean, I've I'm my my

22:05 that and PA. They had a ride on mower we used

22:06 to love. It same.

22:08 I used to love it too, but we were never allowed to ride it on

22:10 our own. Oh, really?

22:11 To ride the the quad bike and that sort of thing.

22:13 But we were like, no, I don't know why.

22:16 My PA was very precious about it.

22:17 I don't know. Although.

22:19 Yeah, yeah, I don't know. I don't know why.

22:22 Oh, wow. You know, we've just asked Dad.

22:23 I can't remember. Well, we'd always have to sit

22:26 like with him. Yeah.

22:28 But we could ride the quad bike which is like way more powerful.

22:31 Powerful than the. Mower.

22:32 Yeah. Oh, that's crazy.

22:33 Anyway, so so funny. So at 3:00, Cindy by prior

22:39 arrangement had dropped. The boys went over to Roberts

22:42 House or Roberts Daddy's house, where Robert was living at the

22:44 time and was going to drop the boys there.

22:48 And she ended up staying while they opened.

22:51 Well, Robert opened the present, so Cindy had bought him a set of

22:54 saucepans. So I think the idea was that

22:56 Robert was going to move out at some point.

22:59 And so I guess she was just trying to give him things to

23:01 help set him up. Yeah, when he moved out on his

23:03 own. I love to, though Jay got a bit

23:05 upset because he had forgotten one of his gifts for his dad.

23:09 So, you know, the typical Father's Day stall at school,

23:11 which I just love. Yeah, and Jay had bought him a

23:15 back scratcher. Yeah.

23:16 And he was disappointed he didn't bring it with him.

23:17 He's like, it's OK, you can bring it next time you see Dad,

23:20 you know, like, oh, my God. I just love that stuff.

23:22 But I also can 100% like the kids think that when they get

23:26 that stuff from the stall. That's way better than whatever

23:29 mum gets or whatever for for dad like you know and pays good

23:31 money. For Yeah, that's right.

23:32 Yeah. They just think it's like the

23:33 best, like, Oh my God. I think we've spoken about this

23:36 on the podcast before, but some of those.

23:38 Oh man, Oh, as I said, I'm like, where do they get this shit?

23:41 It's. All Teamu baby.

23:43 I think that like back in the 80s or back in the early 2020 to

23:47 get them. From there was like legit places

23:49 that like like that sold like this shit.

23:52 OK, don't know, like it was insane.

23:56 Yeah. Oh God yeah.

23:57 But it's funny how like some of the same stuff I see, you know,

23:59 that I used to buy. My mum is still at those stalls.

24:02 When you go to them, it's like what?

24:04 Oh so bad. Do you remember those those bars

24:07 of soap that had like a decal on top?

24:09 Oh God, little Rose one. Yes too.

24:11 Oh, so I used to always buy those for my grandma.

24:13 Yeah, they hated them. Like why did I think that was a

24:16 good idea? Because that's what was on offer

24:19 though, I guess. Yeah, I mean.

24:21 Anyway, so Jay thought his back scratcher was gonna be.

24:24 Just imagine him being like, so devastated that that that's the

24:28 most important gift and we haven't got it.

24:29 Like, yeah, yeah. Oh God.

24:32 Yeah, as as Cindy was leaving after dropping the boys off, I

24:35 think Bailey was a little bit upset about being with his dad.

24:38 I mean, so at this stage, Bailey was only two, yeah, two years of

24:41 age. And you know, this is a lot of

24:43 change in a little kids life. It's a lot of change in Jay and

24:46 Tyler's life. Jay was 10 and Tyler was seven.

24:50 Yeah. But I mean, I guess they knew

24:51 their dad a lot longer. Yeah, Bailey had and so to be

24:56 handed off, he was just feeling a bit sad apparently.

24:59 Yeah, I'm just wanted his mum, which I I get that.

25:03 Yeah, get that, too. Yeah.

25:05 Cindy told Robert that she needed to have the boys home by

25:08 7:30 because it was a Sunday and it was a school night and it was

25:12 time to, you know, get them off to bed.

25:15 Although I believe Cindy was then gonna actually take them

25:17 over to Stevens to have dinner after that.

25:19 Yeah. So yeah, whatever.

25:22 Late night time. Bit of a late night.

25:24 Oh gosh, Bailey were being exhausted.

25:25 By that time, because I wonder whether he would have had naps,

25:28 Who knows, maybe Robert? Well, he had the boys, took them

25:32 shopping to Kmart, Jay got a cricket ball and Tyler and

25:37 Bailey both got a DVD each. So I mean, who doesn't love a

25:40 trip to Kmart? Kmart's way better now than it

25:43 was then too. Oh yeah, bloody.

25:45 Oh, better bargain. I mean, I just think Kmart, the

25:48 quality of Kmart's really gone through the roof lately.

25:50 Bloody love. Oh well.

25:52 And for our American listeners, Kmart here is not your Kmart in.

25:55 America, Yeah. So, yeah, just so you know.

25:58 Google, Google Australia. Yeah, yeah.

26:00 He then bought the kids KFC for dinner or he they call it

26:04 Kentucky. Have you heard an interviewed

26:06 about it? No, it's KFC.

26:07 What do? You they call it Kentucky like

26:09 in his into in one of the interviews I was watching is

26:12 like and then we and I went and got Kentucky for dinner.

26:14 I've never Is it because it's like Kentucky Fried Chicken?

26:17 Well, yeah, but who calls it Kentucky?

26:19 It's KFC. Although back in the day did

26:21 they call it KFC? Back then they would have for

26:24 sure. The 2000s it was definitely.

26:26 Case Well, he called it Kentucky in his in.

26:28 Okay, that's really weird. Yeah, so that would have been

26:31 like Grove Dalish, because so as we're saying, this is kind of

26:34 rural area, which we'll see where they're from, Victoria.

26:37 So yeah, to go into Geelong, it's probably about a 30 minute

26:39 drive into Geelong. And then so on the return trip,

26:43 coming back through from Cat, from Jetlung at Kmart, going

26:46 through Grovedale, there is where the KFC is.

26:48 That was always the for I know the area away point.

26:51 Yeah, it's the last, last option for any take away.

26:53 That's true. Then it was.

26:54 Yeah, back then, I mean even now if you unless you want to get

26:57 off the highway, that's probably pretty.

26:59 They started everywhere. A bit like Torquay is pretty

27:01 chalkers with a few. Oh yeah, if you get Oh yeah, I

27:04 see what you're saying, but you'd.

27:05 Have that's a bit further off the, yeah, off that that way,

27:07 colic way. I don't know what really is.

27:08 Yeah, yeah. There's not a lot out that way,

27:10 but. Yeah.

27:12 They then dropped into Robert's sisters for a quick visit,

27:16 supposedly on the way back to Cindy's.

27:18 So they just went popped in their Father's Day visit, I

27:21 guess, like, just to say hi, let the cousins see each other.

27:25 Yeah. This is where things kind of go

27:29 awry. So we're talking now the journey

27:34 from Robert's sister's place to Cindy's home in Winchell Sea or

27:39 the boys home in. Winchell Sea, the Princess

27:41 Highway. Yeah.

27:42 Yeah, so. This is a fairly straight 100

27:46 kilometer an hour dual carriage way.

27:50 There's it was dark and it was. Like it was really 7:00 PM and

27:56 in September it would be, yeah. It'd be dark.

27:58 Dark, yeah. It was a cool night, a fairly

28:01 cool night. You know, we're still in, or

28:03 would have been the very, very start of spring, Really.

28:06 Yeah. So still sort of just coming out

28:08 of winter. Yeah.

28:10 It was fairly still wasn't raining.

28:13 Nothing crazy going on. Yeah, I'm going to go with what

28:19 Robert reports and then we'll go back and say what the witnesses

28:23 report. Yep, Yep, Yep.

28:24 So Robert says that Jay was feeling really cold in the car

28:30 and so they decided to turn the heater up and he said that.

28:35 Rob says that this then prompted a coughing fit.

28:40 The next thing he remembers is they're in the water and Jay's

28:44 shaking him awake, going dad, dad, we're in the water, we're

28:47 in the water. And with that Jay opens the

28:50 door. Water rushes in.

28:53 Rob Robert reckons he then closed the door, not quite sure

28:57 how, and then the car sank really quickly.

29:01 He was able to get out. He, Robert, says that he tried

29:04 to unbuckle the children before he got out of the car.

29:09 He then makes his way to the shore of the dam.

29:12 So he's realized by this point that the car is somehow in a dam

29:17 off the side of the highway. He swims ashore, which I think

29:22 was about 35 or 40 meters from where he surfaced, and he goes

29:30 to the side of the dam. And from what I can gather, the

29:33 dam was quite, had very high banks and was quite muddy and

29:39 slippery. He's climbed out of that and

29:42 made his way to the highway. And two men by the name of Shane

29:49 and Tony were driving by on the highway.

29:51 So they'd actually been in Geelong visiting actually a

29:54 friend of, of theirs, I think who'd had recently had a baby.

29:57 And they decided to, oh, they were just sort of heading home

30:01 for the night towards wind chill sea along the Princess Highway.

30:06 And they see this sopping wet man on the side of the road.

30:11 And so of course they pull over. I mean, brave, but I guess

30:16 they're two men. As a woman, I don't know what I

30:18 would do. I'd probably call Triple O and

30:20 say, which is our emergency services number.

30:23 Yeah, and say I've just seen this guy on the side of the

30:25 road, but I don't think I would have stopped.

30:27 I don't know. I don't know.

30:28 It's a really hard one to know. What you would do in this

30:31 situation, especially what they encountered, were a little bit

30:34 apprehensive too, because when they get into the car, when

30:38 Robert gets into the car with them, they were actually put him

30:41 in the front passenger seat and Tony, the passenger climbed into

30:45 the back. In the thought of mind of like,

30:47 if this guy is a bit crazy, he can restrain him from behind.

30:51 Yeah, I mean like. I thought that was very clever.

30:53 Of very, very clever. Yeah.

30:55 I mean, not knowing who you're coming across doing this sort of

30:57 thing. So yeah.

30:58 Well, what they came across was a wet like saturated man.

31:02 They he was saying, my boys, my boys, they've drowned.

31:05 They're in the car, they're in the dam.

31:07 And these guys are like, yeah, it's all he they could not get a

31:11 really could not get a straight story on what was going.

31:13 On SO like do you need to call triple O?

31:15 Like do we need to get people? He actually refused on 2

31:18 occasions. And they also then offered to go

31:20 into the dam. Like, are you saying there's

31:22 kids in the dam? Like, what do you want us to do?

31:24 And he was like, Nah, Nah, Nah. They were just point of like, is

31:27 he even telling us the truth? Like is he like off his head?

31:29 One of the guys, Shane actually said.

31:31 I just thought he was having a mental health episode.

31:34 Yeah. And he was adamant about getting

31:36 to Cindy's house. He also reports, Shane also

31:39 reports that he mentioned Robert mentioned Cindy's name about 100

31:45 times between when they first got to him and when they got to

31:49 Cindy's house. Yeah.

31:51 So what to tell Cindy? You have to tell Cindy So what

31:55 these men do, and they actually later come to regret this

31:59 action. And it's traumatized them.

32:02 For life. Yeah, yeah.

32:03 They get Robert in their car, as you were saying, and they drive

32:08 under Roberts direction to Cindy's house.

32:10 Yeah, it was about another 8 kilometers away.

32:12 Yeah, Cindy was actually thinking, oh, it's about time.

32:16 The kids should be getting home by now.

32:18 Like he's he's late. He was.

32:19 It was after 730. Yes.

32:22 She was in one of the bedrooms or something, closing a curtain,

32:25 and she hears a car pull up, but she sees the car coming down the

32:27 driveway and she's like, oh, that's not Robert's car.

32:29 That's strange. But then she hears this scream

32:32 like Cindy, Cindy, Cindy. She runs, rushes to the front

32:36 door and opens up the door. And Robert's like, I've killed

32:40 the I've. What did he say?

32:41 I've written down the direct quote.

32:44 I killed the kids. I killed the kids.

32:47 And Cindy's like what? Like what is going on?

32:50 And he's like, they're in the dam, Like he's just.

32:53 Going 1,000,000. Miles going 1,000,000 miles an

32:55 hour and she's like what the fuck is going on?

32:58 So what she does is she gets in her car the men.

33:02 So Tony and Shane go back in their car.

33:05 Robert goes in the back seat of Cindy's car, which I don't

33:09 really get, but OK. Cindy reports just speeding down

33:15 because Robert's directing her where to go.

33:16 She goes. In one of her interviews, I

33:18 heard her say I was going 145 clicks down the highway.

33:21 Yeah, yeah, as you would as you. I get to those kids, like, where

33:24 the hell are they? What is going on?

33:26 Where are they? Oh my.

33:27 God. They get to the dam and Cindy

33:30 then dials 000. Yes, that is one of the most

33:34 harrowing phone calls I've heard.

33:37 Yeah, she is desperate. She doesn't know what's

33:40 happened. She doesn't know what's going

33:41 on. Robert.

33:42 'S not answering her. She's trying to get information

33:44 out of him, like to relay to them the questions they're

33:48 asking. It's awful.

33:49 It's he's, he's not really helping her.

33:52 He's not giving her information. He's not giving anyone anything

33:54 because the other thing is it's dark.

33:58 Yeah. So actually, so Cindy actually

34:00 on the way down to the dam, Yes. Like it took them about 10, 10

34:05 minutes to get from Cindy's house back to the dam.

34:09 She rings Steven and she's like something horrific happened.

34:14 Somehow, their phone call gets disconnected.

34:17 He then rings her back, and he's like, where are you?

34:19 And she? By this stage, she kind of knows

34:21 where they're going. Or maybe she just arrived on the

34:23 scene. Yeah.

34:24 So Steven then puts him, his cousin who was visiting him and

34:28 his two sons, young boys who was the same age as Tyler and Jay,

34:34 in their car. Yeah.

34:35 And he Alex actually drives while Stevens still on the

34:39 phone. Trying to get directions from

34:40 him, trying to get directions like, yeah, that's right.

34:43 They get down to the dam and Alex is the first person to have

34:47 the foresight. Alex is the cousin.

34:48 I don't know if I said that. Yeah, has is the has the

34:52 foresight to actually shut drive his car and position his car in

34:55 such a way that the headlights are illuminating the dam.

34:59 Yes. But what they see in there is

35:01 nothing. Absolutely nothing there is.

35:03 No, it's still, it doesn't even like look murky, but Alex

35:09 notices and then by this stage, police are starting to arrive on

35:12 scene. I believe the ambulance arrived.

35:14 So first responders, first people on the scene were

35:17 paramedics at 8:07 PM, Then the police arrived like within a

35:21 minute of that, one of the first constables on the scene, he was

35:26 actually trying to figure out again, I mean, a scene like this

35:30 would be so chaotic. And I believe some of Cindy's

35:34 family had somehow been informed.

35:36 So they were starting to arrive on scene.

35:39 And not only were there paramedics, there were just all

35:42 types of police, fire engines, everyone was there.

35:46 So you can imagine the chaotic nature of that.

35:49 There was a young constable who was one of the 1st police

35:53 officers to arrive on scene. And he actually tried to secure

35:56 the site as a crime scene because he's like, we don't

36:00 actually know what's going on here.

36:02 Unfortunately, just due to the sheer number of people and the

36:05 fact that there was so much chaos and so much commotion

36:08 going on, they weren't they, they didn't actually do that.

36:12 But to this young police officers credit, he actually

36:16 started putting markers out where he knew, yeah, points of

36:20 interest would be. Yeah, where he knew the tire

36:22 tracks weren't from any other car.

36:23 Yeah. So they would have had to have

36:24 been from the car that was. Holy shit, This is a this could

36:27 be a crime scene. They don't even know if it's a

36:28 crime scene yet. Yeah, like if, if we keep, if

36:31 all these people keep arriving, we're gonna lose all this and

36:33 not know what tire tracks. What?

36:35 So yeah, he started marking things out, which was so like,

36:38 amazing on him for him to do that so good.

36:41 But the other thing was before even the cops arrived.

36:44 So Steven has arrived and he he's like, what the hell to

36:48 like, Robert, what the Hell's going on?

36:50 What what's going on? And he Steven turns to I'm

36:52 sorry. Robert turns to Steven and says,

36:54 can I bomb a smoke? What the fuck?

36:58 Stephen lost his shit, you know, don't blame him at all.

37:00 And he literally yelled in it if you don't fucking stop, you

37:03 know, what are you doing having a cigarette right now?

37:06 I'm not giving you a cigarette. I'd rather kill you.

37:08 Like. But then Stephen also did what I

37:10 think any parent would do and he's not these kids parent.

37:14 Yeah, He went in the water. Yep.

37:16 And he was trying to find like he was trying to find where the

37:19 edge of the water was, like from the grass and things like.

37:21 And then he found his way out into the water and he's trying

37:24 to feel around, to try and feel where this car would be that's

37:27 in the water, supposedly. Assumed that the dam wasn't that

37:30 deep because it's literally just on the side of the road.

37:33 Yeah like it wasn't very far. I'll.

37:35 Put some pictures up on socials of it.

37:36 I've got some photos like aerial shots and stuff of how it is.

37:39 It's kind of almost in like a bit of a, the kind of section of

37:43 two roads, yeah, two roads where it sort of comes in to put the

37:46 middle. But having, I mean, they've got

37:48 the person who owns that land, the farmer who owns that land

37:50 said that, you know, yes, we can't regularly have cars come

37:53 off the freeway and have damaged the fence and that sort of

37:56 thing. But so in the previous eight

37:58 years, seven other cars had broken the fence and come off

38:02 the freeway onto that property. But none of those had ended up

38:06 in the dam. This was the first one that had

38:08 ended up in the dam, so that's. Interesting.

38:10 The grass between the highway and the dam was very, very long.

38:16 Yeah, and Brushy. Yeah, yeah, just.

38:19 Keep that in mind. But yeah, so Steven, he drove

38:22 down quite a number of times in the water looking for the kids

38:25 to the point where actually the paramedics that actually said to

38:27 him, you have to get out because he was he was going to get

38:30 hypothermia. So.

38:32 So once the cops arrived and they had divers and things to do

38:34 that they were like they literally almost had to drag him

38:36 out to stop him continuously going and looking because he was

38:40 like as you would have thought, continuing to keep going and

38:43 finding these kids till you find them and get them out.

38:49 Cindy, I guess as you would be, was just hopeful that there was

38:53 maybe an air pocket in the car and the kids were just somehow

38:58 surviving in that in that space. That's all you could hope for.

39:01 Like, I mean, that's the thing. You weren't going to walk away

39:03 from it, motherfucker. Oh my God, yeah.

39:08 Sorry, I think I said the cousin's name was Alex.

39:10 The cousin's name was actually Aaron, but Steven's cousin.

39:13 But you know. Yeah, yeah, I didn't even flinch

39:15 at it. Oh, good.

39:17 Yeah. So the first responders on the

39:19 scene basically note the same thing.

39:22 So it was chaotic. It was Cindy was hysterical.

39:28 Yeah. And asking just where are my

39:31 kids? Who's going to get my kids?

39:32 What's going on? Robert apparently was quite

39:35 silent. He asked also asked the police.

39:38 Very calm. Cigarettes.

39:39 Yeah, very calm. I've heard an explanation that

39:43 the reason he was calm is because he knew what had

39:45 happened. But to me, if you knew what had

39:48 happened and you actually gave a shit, yeah, you'd be hysterical

39:53 too. Like it doesn't matter that you

39:55 knew in your head that they were dead because I think the the

39:59 like that juxtaposed with the way.

40:02 That Cindy was behaving hers. She was desperate.

40:05 She was absolutely desperate because she thought there was a

40:08 chance, whereas Robert just knew there wasn't a chance.

40:11 But why did he know? Why did he know?

40:13 How did he know? And the thing with it, I think

40:17 there's a dissociative state that you can go into in these

40:20 moments too, but there's a difference between that again

40:24 and just acting calmly like I think you could.

40:28 But he was dissociating. Would you be then wanting a

40:30 cigarette? That's what I mean exactly.

40:33 Yeah, that's what I mean. There's that's different.

40:35 Again, what he was doing was a. Dissociative, Stephen.

40:38 Yeah. There's no there's the reaction

40:40 of what he to be able to get himself in a person's car, drive

40:44 all the way to Cindy's and direct her back.

40:46 That's not dissociative. No.

40:48 That's someone who's cognitive. Well, he's, he's wanted to see

40:53 what her reaction was going to be, hasn't he?

40:56 So change my mind on that. Basically the paramedics check

41:02 rub it out because I mean, that's just part of what you

41:05 would do at a scene like this. And I guess the thought of

41:08 potentially treating him for shock because.

41:12 Which they were treating City for, yeah.

41:14 Because she was in shock. Yeah.

41:16 So what the paramedics noted at the time was that all of his

41:22 vitals came back completely normal.

41:24 So his blood pressure, his breathing rate, everything just

41:28 came back, you know, as if nothing had really happened to

41:32 him. You.

41:32 Would think at least your blood pressure would be up.

41:34 Well, you would think so, if not only from the cold, then

41:38 anything else. But anyway, yeah, the only.

41:42 So the police then did sort of a less, not a formal interview,

41:46 but they just asked him whether or not like what he thought had

41:50 happened and just was starting to try and figure out exactly

41:54 what was going on. Yeah.

41:55 So he basically says to the police officer who was

42:02 interviewing him, well mate, I must have like done a wheel

42:06 bearing and blacked out and like the, you know, the the stories

42:10 had started on. Maybe it was a coughing fit

42:11 because you know, the heater was turned up.

42:13 Really. He actually changed his story 4

42:15 times. Four times.

42:16 Yeah, there was four different versions before he came to the

42:18 coughing fit. Yeah, yeah.

42:20 And Even so, one of the paramedics.

42:21 Who was them down? Yeah, right.

42:24 The, the one of the paramedics actually checked him out on site

42:28 and it spoke about this. The fact that, you know, yes,

42:30 people can have very strong coughing fits and can black out.

42:33 That's a thing. Cough.

42:35 It's called cough. Syncope, syncope.

42:37 So that's the thing. And the paramedics said though

42:40 if somebody's done that though, there's still, it's not like

42:42 that disappears 5 minutes after the fact.

42:45 There would be there would have been respiratory issues.

42:47 They would have been able to hear in checking him out and

42:50 doing his vitals. They potentially should have

42:52 heard a rattle in the chest or you know, whatever, wheeze or

42:55 some wheeze or something. But there was nothing.

42:57 He was cleared entirely. It's probably worth mentioning

43:00 right now that in the preceding, I think couple of weeks he

43:04 actually had had a, some kind of, I don't think it was a flu,

43:08 I think it was a bacterial infection, then flu.

43:11 Yeah. Yeah.

43:11 With him it probably would have been.

43:13 And he'd been to the GP for this.

43:15 Yeah. Did not once complain about

43:18 coughing to the GP, just complained that he was congested

43:22 and so in the he certainly. Never brought up that he passed

43:24 out, no from coughing, no so because later on he eventually

43:27 he actually says it wasn't the first time, but that was never

43:30 mentioned at the doctor's appointments editor so.

43:33 So the GP did give him antibiotics to clear it up, but

43:36 by the time the day of the accident came, that was like,

43:40 what, five days later or something?

43:41 So, yeah, when upon examination at the crime scene and then

43:46 subsequently at Geelong Hospital where he was taken, yeah, there

43:50 was no evidence of any kind of breathing or respiratory decline

43:57 in him at all. No wheezing, no crackling, no

44:00 nothing, no congestion. He was.

44:02 His chest was completely clear. He reckons he's had these in

44:06 jail since too. Oh yeah, in front of other

44:08 people. We'll get to that.

44:11 So just quickly the four different statements he made.

44:14 So the first one he said is I must have done a wheel bearing.

44:17 Second one was there was a fire. He told this to Cindy apparently

44:22 when he when so when he was when Rob was in the car.

44:27 Well, Cindy was driving to the scene and Cindy was on the phone

44:30 to Stephen that first time. Apparently that's when he said

44:35 there was a fire in the car. Must have been because the

44:37 heater was on. Right.

44:40 And then he reckons he went into a ditch and then that's like

44:43 bounced the car and he's lost control.

44:45 Yeah, right. And even though it's a straight

44:48 piece of Rd. where the like as in the highway is dead straight.

44:52 Dead straight. Yeah, Yeah.

44:55 And then he says the coughing fit.

44:57 Yeah, because that's sort of fit with his narrative.

45:03 So obviously the cops are searching the dam and all those

45:05 sorts of things have gone on, but they've, they've taken him

45:07 back to the police station to interview him and things and

45:10 find out what's going on. At no point he did he ask about

45:14 the kids. And even when they get to the

45:17 point, so at 2:00 AM, they do find the children and pull the

45:22 car from the dam and they, they do find the children at 2:00 AM.

45:25 So quite some time, it took them a long time to get to that

45:27 point. So he didn't know necessarily

45:31 they found them or anything like that.

45:32 He's never asked. And at one point in the

45:34 interview, the police say to him, so the kids are, the kids

45:38 have died. And he's like, Oh yeah, yeah, I

45:40 know. He goes, the police officer

45:43 said, mate, do you realize the children didn't make it out of

45:46 the car? And he said, I figured, I've

45:48 never been in trouble before. What's the likelihood of what's

45:51 going to happen to me? That's how we responded to that

45:54 question. Your kids didn't make it out of

45:57 the car. Oh, yeah.

45:58 But what's going to happen to me now?

45:59 Me, me, me. I'm important here.

46:02 Me, yeah. Piece of shit.

46:07 Piece of shit, Yeah, just. Crazy.

46:14 Just just crazy. Yeah, I want to jump ahead, but

46:18 I'm not going to. Oh, good.

46:23 So obviously, September 4th, this all goes on the following

46:28 days. I mean, can only imagine Cindy

46:31 actually ended up in hospital being sedated.

46:34 She was absolute an absolute mess, as you can only imagine.

46:38 In moments of lucidity though she all she would do is ask

46:41 where her kids were because she I think she was so out of it she

46:46 just didn't remember necessarily.

46:47 But I'm like if if in that state she's able to ask about her

46:50 children in Robert's state, why the fuck wasn't he asking about

46:56 his children? Like it's just dam without them.

46:59 I don't, I'm sorry. There's no fucking.

47:02 No. Line here where I would have

47:05 left that dam without them. Plain simple.

47:09 Yep, same. I mean, I know it's really hard

47:11 to say what you would do in a situation like that.

47:14 Over this week I have gone through.

47:15 It I know. That many times or what I would

47:17 do in that scenario, he had a mobile phone with him.

47:20 Well, which no, he claims that because it would, it had been

47:22 waterlogged, so it didn't work. But when did it get waterlogged?

47:26 After the car door was opened? Or like he could have used that

47:30 phone potentially. Yeah, but but let alone all

47:33 that. I'm sorry.

47:34 I've I've worked out how each kid would have been attached to

47:36 me because he said, he said I have only two arms and two legs.

47:41 How am I getting three kids out? Isn't that disgusting?

47:44 I mean you you throw the 10 year old out and hope they can just

47:47 swim to the. I'm literally, I've been like,

47:49 right, the little ones attached to the front.

47:51 Yeah, the next one's on my back. Yep.

47:53 And I hold and I grab the other one by the hand and I'm like,

47:56 yeah, I'm out that door and I'm going out with all three of

47:58 them. Yeah, like, I don't know how

48:00 else anyone else would. What?

48:01 Seriously, what else were you doing?

48:02 Well, that's no excuse either. OK, Why didn't you save two of

48:05 them? I don't if that's if that's your

48:07 excuse. What?

48:08 You just went, oh can't save all of them, Someone just going to

48:10 leave them behind in. That moment even you got out,

48:12 you opened that door and got out before you thought of your kids.

48:15 I'm sorry. I'm diving down until I get I

48:17 I'm dead. I don't.

48:18 I'm not leaving that dam, plain and simple.

48:22 Getting out of that dam and just to get to your exercise to tell

48:25 her that they're dead. What?

48:28 What on earth? I'm sorry.

48:31 After absolutely everything I've been through in researching

48:35 this. Yeah, that is the thing that I

48:38 keep coming back to. Yeah.

48:40 Is the fact that all he cared about.

48:43 Yeah. Was going to Cindy's house.

48:46 Yep. And seeing her reaction when he

48:48 told her he'd killed their children.

48:50 Exactly. I cut.

48:51 That is the thing I cannot and will not ever get past.

48:55 And I, I will just, I'll mention it here that there are podcasts

48:58 class out there. There's 60 minutes article news

49:00 out there around. If he's potentially him being

49:04 innocent, I'm just going to say flat out.

49:06 They go into all sorts of things of like, you know, junk science

49:11 and all this sort of thing that was used to convict him, right?

49:14 I don't care. As a juror, I wouldn't have

49:16 cared less about the fucking science.

49:19 The evidence is there. He climbed out of that dam and

49:22 went to his ex's house to tell her he had killed his kids.

49:26 Yeah, that's, that's, that's. That is all I need to know.

49:28 He's as guilty as fuck and needs to rot in jail.

49:31 Yep, he is a family annihilator. Yep that's what he is.

49:37 No question why on earth people keep coming back to this going,

49:42 but he had a coughing fit. It does exist.

49:44 You can have that happen. I don't care.

49:46 I fully. Agree though that yeah, cough

49:48 syncope is a it's. Absolutely a thing.

49:51 Totally. There are certainly cases where

49:53 you know that man who was a truck driver.

49:55 Yeah, yeah, yeah. And.

49:55 He veered onto the other side of the road and killed somebody in

49:58 a car. Yes, that was easily provable.

50:00 He was on the phone to his. Brother at the time.

50:03 At the time, yeah. And they were able to prove

50:05 cough syncope in that case. They can't in this case, but

50:08 also. What the fuck if that was me and

50:11 I had passed out from a cough syncope episode and my car had

50:15 gone into that dam. Your actions would be very.

50:19 Too rot in jail like I just if I had done what he had done, I

50:24 wouldn't want anything else because I deserve that.

50:27 My kids are dead. I mean, look, if it, I think if

50:30 it's genuinely an accident, OK, fine.

50:33 But his actions post the incident don't show that it was

50:37 an accident. So to me, he's absolutely guilty

50:40 and he should be rotting in jail because he never tried.

50:43 He never tried to get them out there.

50:45 Was no attempt. So therefore, what happened

50:48 prior even, OK, I'll, you know, if you want to just take that

50:52 away entirely and go like, yeah, he had that syncopity, syncopy,

50:56 syncope and yeah, the car drove off, but he didn't attempt to

51:00 save their lives. So that's just as bad.

51:03 Absolutely, Absolutely. There's nothing that will change

51:06 my mind and what these people are saying around, you know,

51:09 these junk sciences and how the the car will get into all that

51:12 stuff. But like what the car did and

51:14 things like that. Honestly, just it's forget that

51:18 the facts are the facts. But the other thing is these

51:22 theories that they're saying a junk science have been tested in

51:25 court twice now. Twice.

51:28 And he was convicted both times. Yeah, so fuck right off.

51:31 Yeah, stop, stop, stop 'cause it's actually abusing people.

51:35 Yeah. Ongoing.

51:36 Yeah. Like, I mean, yeah, we'll get,

51:37 we'll go, we'll get there. When the police and the police

51:41 rescue divers dove in prior to pull, pulling the car out of the

51:46 dam, what they found was that the the car was actually nose

51:49 up. Yeah, no, sorry.

51:51 Nose down in the dam, so bum up in the air.

51:54 It was basically vertical and there was a door open.

51:59 And once they pulled the car out of the dam, they found that Jay

52:05 and Tyler were both unrestrained.

52:07 Jay was sort of across the front part of the car and Tyler was in

52:11 between the backseat and front seat along the console.

52:16 Then Bailey, the two year old, was tangled in his car seat but

52:21 unclipped. And what they think happened is

52:24 that the boys, the older 2, tried to get him out and

52:29 obviously that that didn't go the way they wanted it to.

52:32 And there's I was reading stupidly, I shouldn't have read

52:35 this, but and probably now I'm going to repeat it for you guys

52:37 to hear too and feel awful as well.

52:40 There's a kind of thought, you know, like, you know, drowning

52:42 would be like some sort of peaceful way to go.

52:44 You know, like it's so not those, those boys went through

52:48 hell because, you know, the body reacts in certain ways of that

52:53 water entering the body, entering the body.

52:56 They're young children. They're not an adult thinking

52:58 like forethought of like, you know, even holding your breath

53:00 for, you know, as long as you can or any of those sorts of

53:01 things. Those kids would have been

53:03 yelling dad, dad, like, you know, and, and consuming that

53:07 water very quickly. But the body still takes a long

53:09 time to choke, breathe again, try choke, breathe again, try

53:15 choke. Those kids would have gone

53:17 through fucking hell, absolutely torture.

53:21 It's. Just too much.

53:24 It's awful, absolutely awful. So young.

53:29 Oh, yeah. So what they from what they

53:35 found of the car, they didn't couldn't find really any

53:38 evidence of this fact of Jay opening his door either the way

53:42 he described that happening. They basically said that that's

53:46 almost impossible. Because.

53:49 If even if there was an air pocket inside the car and they

53:52 and Jay's pushed his door open. Yes.

53:56 Robert then wouldn't have been able to pull it shut.

53:58 It shut exactly that's true. No, no.

54:01 They also found that when they pulled the car out of the dam,

54:05 the headlights were off. Now, this was pitch black.

54:08 So as we're saying, 7:00 PM on a September night, it's dark, you

54:12 have your full headlights on. The headlights were off.

54:15 The heater, which Robert claimed was on high because Jay was

54:19 cold, was off. The ignition was off.

54:24 The handbrake. The handbrake was on.

54:30 What the fuck? What the fuck?

54:33 Why? Sorry, why?

54:34 You? And the headlights weren't just

54:36 off because the car had been in the dam.

54:37 They were actually turned off. Yeah.

54:40 The other thing was that the is that so nobody.

54:42 Could find the car quickly, like fuck me, fuck me.

54:46 Yeah, really unusual. And he can't answer those

54:50 questions. Cindy asked him, Yeah, did you

54:53 turn them off? And he goes, maybe, but maybe

54:56 Jay did it. Yeah, he tried to blame Jay.

54:57 That's right. Oh, I just which this absolutely

55:00 sends me around the twist. The other thing that they worked

55:04 out was by the speed of what this car entered that water, it

55:09 actually had to have skipped basically across the surface

55:12 because it was doing such huge speeds it got. 30 odd meters

55:17 into the. Dam, it wasn't like it kind of

55:19 rolled down the hill and rolled into the water and like, you

55:21 know, that's where you think it would be.

55:22 You know, there'd be a bit of ground underneath them.

55:26 It's they were in the middle of it kind of thing.

55:28 Because lodged themselves. Essentially it was like it

55:30 skipped across the top of the water.

55:34 What the fuck? Yes, they're doing 100K up on

55:37 that road, but. But as I said, it was very thick

55:41 and long grass like you're. Passed out.

55:43 Accelerating. He's accelerating like that's

55:45 what they discovered through this, that there was

55:47 acceleration like if you're passed out limp, right, there's

55:51 no accelerating like there's you're not doing that.

55:56 I don't. I mean, I don't know the science

55:59 behind like if you're limp, whether or not a limp leg can

56:02 then push like I don't, I don't know.

56:04 Yeah. But seriously, it just.

56:07 And the fact that he went there was time marks to prove he went

56:10 around a tree. Trees 222.

56:13 Yeah, 2 trees. I'll again I'll and some

56:16 shrubbery. Yeah.

56:17 That would have potentially at least slowed the car if not

56:21 stopped it. Yeah.

56:22 OK. How did that fucking happen if

56:24 you were passed out dude? Yeah.

56:27 How'd you turn the wheel Steering.

56:29 Input the steering wheel, they said to get it to go change

56:32 direction to that point. I can OK someone you pass out

56:36 your hand like can move the wheel a little bit, like by

56:38 turning it as you power it out or whatever.

56:40 I'll have that. But he had to have turned the

56:42 wheel a full 220°. That takes more than yeah, like

56:49 a a slip of the arm on the on the steering.

56:51 Wheel. But then I just wonder also, and

56:54 this is, I don't know, like could Jay have potentially

56:57 reached over to try and avoid like to try and move the

57:00 steering wheel potentially because he was 10, he would have

57:03 been old enough to. See a tree on But he would have

57:05 pulled the steering wheel the opposite direction because he

57:07 would have had to just say yeah he would have pulled the car

57:09 left, not right. Yeah.

57:13 So not even. That, that was, that was one of

57:15 my things about the handbrake being on.

57:16 I'm like, maybe Jay pulled the handbrake because he's like,

57:19 fuck, we need to stop. Well, not fuck, probably, but I

57:22 need to stop the car, the household.

57:23 Yeah, I need to stop the car. Like maybe he pulled that.

57:27 That was one thing. I was like, yeah, I could

57:29 explain that away to myself. Yes.

57:31 But the rest of it, no, I don't think Jay's turned the

57:33 headlights off. No.

57:34 Turn the heater up. Done.

57:35 Any of that. No, no.

57:37 In a panic situation, no one would think to do that.

57:40 No. Weird.

57:43 Weird. Then another witness, a witness,

57:45 does actually claim that Jay was in the back.

57:47 Not the front anyway, but we can get there.

57:49 Yeah. Yeah.

57:53 So basically this is where we're sitting at the moment.

57:54 So everyone sort of, you know, is, is he, did he have something

57:58 to do with this? Police started interviewing him

57:59 and this sort of became a bit known that he was being

58:01 interviewed and one of his very best mates, Greg King.

58:06 Immediately when this occurred he remembered a conversation he

58:09 had had with with with Robert a couple of months earlier.

58:15 So this was in the May or June of 2005, he claims this

58:18 conversation took place. Yeah, so by September 9th, he

58:21 gave a statement to police about it because it was really playing

58:24 on his mind. What he claimed was that there

58:27 was a conversation where he was standing at the front of a fish

58:30 and chip shop and his kids were inside it getting the fish and

58:34 chips. Robert was there.

58:36 Their kids were inside getting that.

58:37 They were chatting at the car. I think actually Robert, one of

58:40 them was in a car. One of them was standing next to

58:41 the car coming. Which Greg went.

58:42 Greg was in the car and. Rob was outside the car.

58:45 Sort of talking to him through the window.

58:47 Chatting there, waiting for their fish and chips basically.

58:49 And as they're chatting, Sydney pulls up Friday night.

58:52 Obviously like, there. Must be only one fish.

58:54 One good fish and chip shop in windshield.

58:56 See. Absolutely.

58:57 So she pulls up to collect hers, gets out of the car and says

59:00 hello to both of them and walks into the fish and chips shop and

59:04 Greg says hi but but Robert doesn't.

59:07 Ignores. It totally ignores it,

59:08 completely ignores it. And Greg sort of called him out

59:10 and said, hey, mate, like you can't do that.

59:13 You've got to be, you know, amicable, like, you know, being

59:15 nice and stuff, say hi, like and you go.

59:17 And to which Greg really Robert really like sort of flew off a

59:20 bit of like, you know, Nah, she's, you know, screw me over

59:23 and you know, she's taking the good car and she's got the house

59:26 and now she's living, you know, she's going to marry that bloke

59:28 Steven and you know, oh, woe with me.

59:30 And you know, really like, you know, really had put it in for

59:33 for Cindy and apparently said something along the lines of I'm

59:39 gonna what is it? What was the words he said?

59:42 So he said I'm gonna pay Gambino.

59:44 So pay Cindy back big time by taking away the most important

59:48 thing to her. Nobody does that to me and gets

59:51 away with it. Quite threatening comments.

59:55 Like really awful. Now, this really played on

59:59 Craig's mind really badly. I mean, this is best made of 30

1:00:02 years. This is not just some random

1:00:03 guy. That's like saying this is not

1:00:05 someone who'd be like, Oh yeah, I'll take my moment in this in

1:00:07 the the sun here. I'll, you know, put.

1:00:10 Robert Dickhead in it, these were, he was genuinely a good

1:00:13 mate of his. They'd grown up together.

1:00:15 I've been on footy teams, played together, all that sort of

1:00:17 stuff. Each others weddings.

1:00:18 And yeah, they were each others weddings.

1:00:20 It's you know, so this was not a nobody.

1:00:22 And it really got really bad for him, the trauma of it to the

1:00:25 point where he didn't actually even attend the kids funeral.

1:00:27 He couldn't. He just felt so traumatized of

1:00:31 like what information he felt guilty and he.

1:00:33 Felt like if he had of just said something to Cindy after having

1:00:36 had that conversation that maybe the kids wouldn't be dead.

1:00:39 Yeah, that's his. That's his reasoning.

1:00:41 Yeah, which I mean, Can you imagine?

1:00:43 I could imagine like, you know, having a conversation.

1:00:46 Some people do say things off off hand of like, you know, and

1:00:48 say nasty things and they don't mean it.

1:00:51 But then when the exact event of what he said he's going to do

1:00:53 happens. And Greg, Greg said that like,

1:00:56 Robert was like that he was this like woe.

1:00:59 His knee complained all the time, whinged about everything.

1:01:02 There was always complaining about money or and and he was

1:01:05 very focused on money and possessions and what things kind

1:01:10 of looked like to other people. Yeah.

1:01:12 And so Greg was like, oh, yeah, he's oh, here we go.

1:01:15 He's whining about money again because, you know, he has to.

1:01:17 Oh, yeah, he was apparently that night, like complaining about

1:01:20 having to pay child support. Yeah.

1:01:21 I'm like, yeah, because they're your kids, mate.

1:01:23 Yeah, bare minimum, mate. Yeah.

1:01:25 Yeah, but so in, because in the whole process of the of the

1:01:28 breakdown marriage, like Robert did not take it well.

1:01:31 And that was well known. But he to the point where he did

1:01:34 actually seek some help and he went to a psychologist and he

1:01:37 was given some antidepressants and things.

1:01:40 He was in that process. So he was diagnosed with a

1:01:43 personality disorder, with avoidant personality disorder

1:01:48 and, and obviously depression. And so, yeah, he was given

1:01:52 Zoloft, I think, and to like treat the depression and he was

1:02:00 talking sort of suicidal thoughts and things like that.

1:02:03 So he wasn't in a good way. That's and that was known.

1:02:06 I mean, even Greg talks about a moment, I think back in sort of

1:02:10 maybe the January, February where he had seen Greg like

1:02:14 parked in his car and not but not going anywhere.

1:02:17 And like, and he driven past him and kind of like he didn't even

1:02:19 see me. Like, you know, as you saw him

1:02:21 drove past. Then later on that same day when

1:02:23 I saw you down at such and such point, like, you know, but you

1:02:25 were just sitting at the at the intersection, like and you know,

1:02:28 you didn't see me. I waved to you, but you didn't

1:02:29 see me. And Greg said I was trying to

1:02:31 line up a truck, like to drive out in front of it and have the

1:02:35 truck take him out. But again.

1:02:37 Was he? Greg kind of, yeah.

1:02:39 So Greg was kind of like, this is just Robert, like he does

1:02:42 that. Like, yeah, he'll talk himself

1:02:46 into those sort of sympathy moments of to get sympathy from

1:02:49 other people and stuff and didn't really take him too

1:02:52 seriously on those threats of those sorts of things.

1:02:55 But it was definitely noted by people that he was, Yeah, not in

1:02:59 a good way, not in a right frame of mind, I guess, in that he was

1:03:03 thinking those sorts of thoughts.

1:03:05 Absolutely. But yeah, so poor, poor Greg

1:03:08 really wasn't in a good way when he went to the.

1:03:10 He ended up having like lots of time off work and he was

1:03:13 eventually actually diagnosed with, he had a nervous breakdown

1:03:16 and then was diagnosed with PTSD.

1:03:18 Yeah. And so, yeah, the, the, I think

1:03:21 the thing that really got me in this is that ripple effect and

1:03:26 how many people's lives were permanently changed by this

1:03:29 event. It was, it's extraordinary.

1:03:32 And I know when things like this happen, that's the case.

1:03:35 But when it's three young children and they're murdered by

1:03:37 their father, yeah, I just think how profound that is and how

1:03:42 significant that is. Absolutely.

1:03:45 You know, it's it's untold, actually.

1:03:47 We it's immeasurable. Yeah.

1:03:49 This is just one person whose life was changed forever.

1:03:52 Because The thing is, Greg was a a bus driver.

1:03:56 Yes. And his, the way that it came

1:03:59 about that he actually even ended up reporting this to the

1:04:01 police is because his boss at the bus depot.

1:04:05 Yeah. Was a former police officer and

1:04:07 he. All he noticed was that after

1:04:10 this incident had taken place that Greg was acting really

1:04:13 weird. Yeah, really strange and to the

1:04:14 point where he's like, I don't think it's safe for you to be

1:04:16 driving buses anymore, mate. Yeah.

1:04:18 I really think you need to take some time and take some time,

1:04:20 but I, I really think you need to go and say whatever it is

1:04:23 that you know. Yeah, you need to go and report

1:04:25 it to the police. And that was what Greg.

1:04:28 The impetus Greg used to go to the police and then I think

1:04:31 subsequently, you know, sought some psychological assistance as

1:04:34 well. Yeah, but that's just, you know,

1:04:38 how much that must have been playing on his mind.

1:04:41 The thing that gets me back, Greg and I think this is just

1:04:44 horrific given his experience throughout this entire situation

1:04:49 is once this once these murders went to trial, Greg's testimony

1:04:55 was called into into question. Yeah.

1:05:00 So basically Greg ended up making three formal statements.

1:05:04 Yes, the first statement as you said was, was that in September?

1:05:08 That was, yes, September, September 9th.

1:05:10 And then do you know, did you write down when the second one

1:05:12 was? It was.

1:05:13 Only a few days later was only a few days later and then I think.

1:05:16 One was maybe in January. No, yeah, it was December was

1:05:19 the third one because because basically they they came away

1:05:22 from the second one. And the cop said to him because

1:05:24 he started remembering more of the conversation, which and this

1:05:27 is the thing, he didn't change his statement.

1:05:29 No, he elaborated on it. He just added more to what?

1:05:32 It never actually changed the story.

1:05:34 He just elaborated and had more detail.

1:05:36 So he was remembering more of it.

1:05:38 And so by the time we got to what the the second one, the cop

1:05:41 said to him, look, you're remembering more things.

1:05:44 Take some time, breathe. You know, like we've got it's

1:05:47 don't think we're on you that you have to have this

1:05:48 information immediately because he actually did do some

1:05:51 recordings as well of conversations he had with Robert

1:05:55 about this. And they said to him, take some

1:05:57 time, write down everything that you think of, you know, take a

1:06:00 week or you know, and write down everything and then come back to

1:06:03 us when you think you've got it all in line.

1:06:06 But so he really did take time to do that.

1:06:08 And so it was the December he went back with the third

1:06:10 statement. Yeah.

1:06:11 So he, the things that he added were when Robert said to him

1:06:18 about nobody does that to me and gets away with it.

1:06:22 Apparently Greg said to him, like, what do you mean by that?

1:06:25 Or what does that mean? Yeah.

1:06:27 And he apparently he muttered something, as in Robert muttered

1:06:30 something about a dam. Yeah.

1:06:31 So that was the first bit that he added.

1:06:33 So when the police then basically said to him, said to

1:06:37 Greg, we need you to wear a wire and try and get him to recall

1:06:41 that conversation and maybe even repeat what he said.

1:06:43 Yeah. In the recording, Greg, to his

1:06:47 credit, gets Robert to a point where he's talking about it, but

1:06:51 Robert just tries to basically coach him through what to say

1:06:54 because he's like, he doesn't. Denies the conversation.

1:06:57 The conversation, But he's like, well, what are you telling the

1:07:00 police? Because Greg's saying I think

1:07:02 the police are going to want to talk to me.

1:07:04 Little did he know, they'd already spoken A.

1:07:06 Couple of times. But, and he was wearing a wire,

1:07:09 but Robert Bait, he doesn't confess anything, but he's like,

1:07:13 you know, tell him I'm a really good bloke.

1:07:14 I'm a really good, I'm a really good father.

1:07:16 I take the boys to the footy. I do this, I do that.

1:07:19 But Greg's like, but what did you mean, mate?

1:07:22 Then when you were saying that, you wanted to take away the

1:07:25 thing that was most important to her And he's like, oh, it was

1:07:27 the car. Yeah, I know.

1:07:28 And he kept nobody kept also saying like that.

1:07:31 Oh, that was just a figure of speech.

1:07:32 Yeah. Like I was just.

1:07:33 I was just angry. I was really angry.

1:07:35 Yeah. Just tell him I'm a good bloke.

1:07:37 Like he really tried to. He certainly didn't didn't say

1:07:41 the conversation had happened. So I'm sorry, but Greg's

1:07:43 statement is accurate. He was said.

1:07:47 So I mean, just say things like, Oh yeah, but I was just angry

1:07:49 and like, well, hang on a minute, but you've done what you

1:07:51 said, so hang on. And immediately to then try and

1:07:55 coach Greg as to what to say to the cops about him, it just

1:08:00 screams guilt. Doesn't it?

1:08:02 Yeah. Tell him how good of a dad I am.

1:08:03 I'd never do anything like that, no.

1:08:06 Now I'm a good bloke, you know that.

1:08:07 Tell him, tell him how good a bloke I am.

1:08:10 Oh my. God you're a fucking piece of

1:08:11 shit is what you are. Such a piece of shit.

1:08:14 Yeah, oh, God. So in April 2006 in, he's

1:08:20 committed to trial for three counts of murder.

1:08:24 There were a total of 49 witnesses called to appear,

1:08:29 which I mean, some of them were paramedics, police, some of them

1:08:32 were experts, you know, which brought, you know, the

1:08:35 scientific side of it. But there was also then like

1:08:37 Greg gave his testimony now his was his testimony was brought

1:08:42 into question. Unfortunately, he had a charge

1:08:45 on him at the time for reckless injury.

1:08:49 I think it was a bit of a, a brawl at a pub or something.

1:08:52 Yeah, yeah. I couldn't find anywhere that he

1:08:55 was eventually, eventually convicted of that or anything,

1:08:57 so I actually assumed he wasn't. I do.

1:09:00 I do remember reading that in one of the books it states that

1:09:03 he isn't a criminal. So therefore I dare say he

1:09:08 wasn't convicted of it. I think you're right.

1:09:09 So, yeah, but don't, don't quote me because I couldn't find it

1:09:13 anywhere. Yeah.

1:09:15 So at the end of that trial, it was six weeks at ran four and he

1:09:20 was found guilty and sentenced to three life sentences of

1:09:24 imprisonment. Life.

1:09:26 Sorry, three life imprisonment. Oh my God, sorry my brain.

1:09:29 Just three life sentences. Three life.

1:09:30 Sentences, We'll do it. Yeah.

1:09:33 So obviously the jury, they didn't take long to come to that

1:09:37 deliberation. I think that was three days they

1:09:39 deliberated and came up with that as their conclusion that he

1:09:43 was guilty, guilty, guilty three times over.

1:09:48 Greg. I'm Greg.

1:09:49 Sorry. Robert obviously appealed that

1:09:53 ruling as he's entitled to do. And, but his conviction was

1:09:59 overturned by the by the appeal judges and he was granted also

1:10:04 bail then and granted a retrial, which, OK, basically the, the

1:10:11 reason for that was the fact that the jury had not been

1:10:15 informed that Greg had a charge outstanding for him at the time

1:10:22 of giving his evidence. Does that really change his

1:10:27 reliability and the way he gave his testimony at trial?

1:10:32 No. No.

1:10:33 Anyway, that was why they granted the retrial in 2010.

1:10:42 He was, I once again found guilty on July 22nd.

1:10:48 He was found guilty at his second trial.

1:10:50 Now at the second trial, there was a new witness that was also

1:10:53 added to the witness pool by the name of Dawn Waite.

1:11:00 Now, Dawn didn't come forward first thing because, you know, I

1:11:04 can understand this a little bit.

1:11:05 She sort of went, oh, they've got the guy, you know, that's

1:11:08 fine. I don't need to come forward.

1:11:10 So she was. Also undergoing cancer treatment

1:11:15 at the time, so she was fighting her own battle.

1:11:17 Life quite unwell at the time and I think she's sort of like

1:11:19 oh I don't need to hassle myself with that at this time it's.

1:11:21 Being sorted the way it needs. To yeah.

1:11:23 And not only that, she had actually back in New Zealand,

1:11:26 where she was from, there'd been a car accident where she had

1:11:29 reported somebody doing the wrong thing driving.

1:11:33 This person had unfortunately then committed suicide because

1:11:36 of that, because of that. So she there was, I mean,

1:11:39 obviously, a lot of guilt for her around that.

1:11:42 So I think her saying, oh, no, I'm out.

1:11:45 I don't want any part of that. It's quite understandable with a

1:11:48 bit of PTSD on that one, like what's going on there.

1:11:50 So completely understandable why she didn't come forward.

1:11:53 Yeah. But when she heard that he was

1:11:55 out on bail and a retrial was occurring, she was like, I think

1:12:00 I need to say something. She was also by this stage, by

1:12:02 the way, passed her cancer treatment and doing quite well.

1:12:05 So I think with more health on her side as well as sort of

1:12:09 going, oh God, I can't let this go away and not not speak up.

1:12:13 She, she came forward now. So what her testimony basically

1:12:17 was that she was driving behind that vehicle on the night at

1:12:21 7:00-ish along the Princess Highway, and she noted that the

1:12:25 car just kept breaking and like then speeding up and then

1:12:28 braking and then speeding up. So this is a 100 kilometre an

1:12:31 hour, yeah. Sorry, Freeway.

1:12:33 Freeway, Yeah. And she said the car was going

1:12:36 like, on average, about 60 kilometres an hour.

1:12:38 So that's significantly slower than the speed limit, yeah,

1:12:42 which is screaming and shouting at this person by now would be

1:12:46 swearing at them, so. Showing at them for sure.

1:12:48 So yeah, she was like, what on earth is this person doing?

1:12:51 And she didn't know the stretch of Rd. that well herself.

1:12:53 So she was like, well maybe there's a turn off somewhere

1:12:55 here and he's looking for that turn off and was like, God, what

1:12:58 the hell is she? Is he doing?

1:13:00 And as she got closer to the car, she was like, oh, God, I

1:13:03 just want to go around and get away from him.

1:13:04 I can just. It's fair enough.

1:13:06 Yeah. So she literally overtook him.

1:13:10 And as she did that kind of turned to the car, maybe said

1:13:13 some expletives, you know, what the fuck are you doing?

1:13:17 And so she did take note. She took note of what she saw

1:13:21 when she turned to look at the car.

1:13:23 And that was the driver of the car looking across to the other

1:13:28 side of the stretch of the road. She couldn't get, she couldn't

1:13:30 get his attention at all. He was fixated on looking at

1:13:32 where he what was on the side of the road, not in front of him to

1:13:36 the side, the right, to the right.

1:13:38 Oh, to the right. Yeah, yeah.

1:13:39 Sorry, sorry. He's looking to the right, she's

1:13:40 passing him on the left I believe, and so he's looking

1:13:44 towards the right and so not paying attention to her at all,

1:13:46 but he's fixated on looking what's off to the right.

1:13:49 She noticed that the three kids were jammed into the three seats

1:13:53 in the back, interestingly, and so she and then as she's

1:13:59 overtaken him and you know he's a freaking idiot, get off the

1:14:02 road, pulled off in front of him.

1:14:05 As she's looked in her rearview mirror, the lights have

1:14:08 disappeared. Within seconds, within seconds,

1:14:12 this was like, not like. She'd gone so far that she

1:14:15 couldn't see the lights anymore. She looked in her rearview

1:14:17 mirror, fully expecting to see the two headlights shining, and

1:14:22 then in her mind she thought, oh, he's found the turn off to

1:14:25 the, you know, to the. Properties or whatever he's

1:14:27 going to yeah, and and he's turned off and so.

1:14:29 She just kept driving. Yeah.

1:14:30 She then went to Colac, stopped in Colac for a meal.

1:14:34 Yeah. And her testimony was that she

1:14:37 was at in Colac at 7:15 PM, That's the time on her receipt.

1:14:41 And she kept this receipt for years and years and years, but

1:14:44 she'd subsequently gotten rid of the receipt.

1:14:47 Well, by the time we're talking now 2010 for this retrial five

1:14:49 years later, I mean, it's five years later from the incident,

1:14:52 so, yeah. But what I find really

1:14:54 interesting is the the defense, Yeah, call into question the

1:15:00 timing of all this, right? Because they're like, well, how

1:15:02 did you get from where the incident took place to Colac to

1:15:06 have a receipt for 7:15? I mean, fucking hell, memories

1:15:09 are available. Like, maybe it was 725.

1:15:12 Exactly. But that was the thing they

1:15:14 used. And I'm like, you don't even

1:15:16 fucking have the receipt as proof anymore.

1:15:17 You don't know. She just thought it was around

1:15:20 7:15 PM. Yeah, yeah.

1:15:22 And 7:15, it puts it in the right time train.

1:15:25 Exactly. It's in the right Yeah, zone.

1:15:27 And the thing was that she was the following day on the news,

1:15:30 she saw this car being pulled out of the dam on the news,

1:15:33 which I could get, I could pull up the photos of that.

1:15:36 And she literally went that's that car I was driving past.

1:15:39 Like, that's the exact car. Look, I understand they're a

1:15:42 common car. I think my dad drove 1, you

1:15:44 know, at one stage. But they were a common car.

1:15:47 But just to see that car that was driving along that road that

1:15:50 she was that night approximately the same time that's being

1:15:53 pulled out of a dam, she knew because she was concentrating on

1:15:56 the back of that car, she wouldn't know the number plate.

1:15:58 She. You know what I mean, She.

1:15:59 Also said like it had those like Louvre things on the back

1:16:03 window. She even commented about that

1:16:06 the. Fact that she had seen a man

1:16:07 driving it with three kids in the car.

1:16:10 It's it was the car. Oh, and he wasn't coughing.

1:16:12 No, it wasn't. She drove past.

1:16:14 That's the other thing, yeah. Yes.

1:16:15 He wasn't coughing. Yeah.

1:16:17 So that was kind of brought into the mix in terms of witness

1:16:21 statements into that second trial, which again obviously

1:16:24 resulted in yet another conviction of again, he was

1:16:29 convicted of three counts of murder, sentenced to life in

1:16:33 prison with and 30. It was a minimum 33 years for

1:16:39 parole. Yep.

1:16:40 Which takes him through to about nineteen, 2000 and what, 36 or

1:16:44 so? Something like that.

1:16:45 Yeah. Before we have to consider the

1:16:48 thought of him being released. He tried to appeal that at the

1:16:54 Victorian Supreme Court but was rejected.

1:16:58 And then again in 2013 he sought an appeal again from the High

1:17:03 Court, but again he was turned down.

1:17:06 So he has tried every Ave. until recently.

1:17:11 Where? Literally 2022 this all kind of

1:17:14 came back out again. Yeah, fuck off.

1:17:17 Fuck off. So basically what they're saying

1:17:21 in terms of wanting a retrial is because they've got all this

1:17:24 new. I'm just putting this in air

1:17:27 quotes for those not watching us evidence to show you that he

1:17:32 that you know there's reasonable doubt is what they're what

1:17:37 they're saying. Nope, not in my mind the.

1:17:39 The problem is so much has changed.

1:17:41 So what they're saying is that the evidence that the

1:17:45 prosecution used in terms of the way the car moved and the inputs

1:17:49 that it had and all the bits and pieces that went along with that

1:17:53 side of things, is the technology that we have now will

1:18:00 be more accurate in predicting what happened.

1:18:02 However, since 2005, when this incident happened along that

1:18:08 stretch of road, 1,000,000 cubic meters of dirt has been moved.

1:18:14 It has been now made into a dual carriageway instead of single,

1:18:18 single lane and to a route to near where the dam is in and

1:18:25 around the dam. There's significant changes to

1:18:27 the topography because of all of that earth moving.

1:18:30 Yeah. And because there's more

1:18:31 vegetation now, the grass is actually no longer like that

1:18:34 grassy stuff anymore. It's like more, I don't know,

1:18:37 shrubbery type stuff. But there's there's actually no

1:18:40 way that they can get an accurate.

1:18:42 Reproduce. Reproduction of what happened,

1:18:45 Yeah. There was also all this stuff

1:18:46 about the car sinking too quickly and or not quickly.

1:18:49 Like, there's so much conjecture around the evidence that was

1:18:53 used in both of the trials. But as I said to you before we

1:18:56 started this, Yeah, this evidence has been tested twice

1:19:00 now in a court of law. Yeah.

1:19:02 And both times he was found guilty beyond a reasonable

1:19:05 doubt. Exactly.

1:19:07 So fuck right off, leave this family annihilator in jail where

1:19:13 he belongs. Yes and why are we giving him

1:19:17 the time of day now? Can I just say really quickly

1:19:19 please, what I think? So with this 60 minutes age,

1:19:23 whatever I think this is just disgusting journalism.

1:19:26 I I have a lot of respect, generally speaking, for some of

1:19:30 the journalists actually involved with this.

1:19:32 Same. That's what I'm but in.

1:19:33 This. In this instance, I just cannot

1:19:36 actually believe they're going down this path.

1:19:38 No, I think what they want is another Kathleen Folbigg.

1:19:42 This is the thing they want their moment of just like, oh,

1:19:44 we've got someone out of jail that you know, he's been wrongly

1:19:47 convicted. This isn't the guy.

1:19:49 No, this is not the guy in this environment.

1:19:51 Kathleen Folbigg, Absolutely. Lindsay Chamberlain?

1:19:54 Absolutely. Well, no, I think that is the

1:19:58 way it should have been for now, but no, for real.

1:20:02 But. Into Kathleen Folbigg case, she

1:20:05 was imprisoned because four of her children died of essentially

1:20:09 natural causes. But somebody decided that four

1:20:12 kids, well, that's more than a coincidence.

1:20:14 Yeah. And so she was jailed for that.

1:20:16 That is a completely different set of circumstances.

1:20:19 Her children died from medical episodes.

1:20:23 These three boys died because they were murdered by their

1:20:25 father. Yes, yes.

1:20:27 That's very, very. Different, it's so different and

1:20:29 it's, and in the environment we're living at the moment of

1:20:31 like domestic violence is so prevalent in Australia and then

1:20:35 we're deciding to go down this track and look at this guy and

1:20:37 try and get him out of jail. When there is so much evidence

1:20:41 pointing to the fact that this guy had a personality that could

1:20:43 do this. He was, you know, this is

1:20:46 something he was very capable of.

1:20:48 We're not talking about someone who genuinely had guilt,

1:20:51 genuinely tried their best to get those kids out of that dam.

1:20:54 He fucking did nothing. He needs to rot in jail.

1:20:58 Stay away from it. I just don't understand why

1:21:01 these are just very credible journalists are chasing this.

1:21:05 It's not there. It's just not there.

1:21:08 It's actually distressing. And I feel like for Cindy

1:21:10 Gambino, I mean, it's awful that she passed away in 2022, the age

1:21:15 of 50. I mean, I only, I can only say

1:21:18 she probably broke, she died of a broken heart.

1:21:19 I'm sorry. She had two more children to

1:21:22 Stephen like, well, they got married.

1:21:23 They got married and had a, you know, a lovely life together and

1:21:26 it brought these two kids into the world, which is so lovely.

1:21:29 But she, I mean, I know she made statements around the fact of I

1:21:33 never know how to answer the question of how many kids do you

1:21:35 have? Which I could only the sympathy

1:21:37 for that. I just have so much.

1:21:39 Can you imagine saying, because she said, if I say I have five

1:21:42 children, then I have to explain where the other three are.

1:21:45 If I only say 2, I'm dismissing that those other three children

1:21:48 never existed like. That's just impossible.

1:21:51 Awful. I think it's just really worth

1:21:53 noting very quickly too, because I think people will probably

1:21:56 remember this or those who know this case.

1:21:58 Yeah, when this first happened, Cindy really supported Robert,

1:22:03 Yes, because she just couldn't fathom the thought that he would

1:22:06 ever do anything like. She was too highly brainwashed

1:22:10 in an abusive relationship she was unaware that she was in.

1:22:13 That's right. And so it wasn't actually until

1:22:16 the second trial that she'd come around.

1:22:19 I think she'd had some extensive counselling and she had been

1:22:22 working really hard to, I don't know, just process what had

1:22:28 happened to her as in in the relationship and then

1:22:32 subsequently post the relationship in relation to the

1:22:36 murder of her children. And by the second trial she was

1:22:39 well and truly understanding of exactly what happened in the

1:22:43 situation and was fully on board in terms of assisting the

1:22:46 prosecution. So I think a lot of people say,

1:22:52 oh, but if Cindy thought it, well, no, no, no, Cindy was

1:22:55 actually an abused woman, and she was the target of this, yes,

1:22:59 final act of revenge against her.

1:23:02 Yeah. This was to cause her the most

1:23:04 pain that anyone could ever have inflicted upon them.

1:23:07 And that is literally what he did.

1:23:10 And as you said, she died at the young age of 50.

1:23:13 Yeah. She had two more young sons,

1:23:15 plus her stepsons, so Stephen's sons, who she has now left

1:23:21 behind. Which is just awful.

1:23:23 It's so it's just more tragedy. There is the only one positive

1:23:27 thing out of this in that a new law has come into play as well.

1:23:31 Where? Because when the boys passed

1:23:33 away and they purchased plots for their for the burial, Cindy

1:23:39 purchased the plot next to them to bury next to them.

1:23:41 Right. Yeah.

1:23:42 So then Robert went and purchased one also too.

1:23:45 And at the time, Cindy was, you know, OK with that because she

1:23:48 actually believes that Robert was, you know, he was innocent

1:23:52 of this. And so that was fine.

1:23:55 He purchased the plot next to them as well.

1:23:56 And then they'll all be buried together as time's obviously

1:24:00 gone on. Clearly that, you know, he's

1:24:02 been convicted then of their murders.

1:24:05 And then obviously Cindy has passed away.

1:24:08 So she's now she's buried with her boys.

1:24:10 And but she, she had, Stephen had to request Robert from jail

1:24:16 to get permission for her to be buried there like that alone.

1:24:19 He still had further abuse and further power.

1:24:22 So then Stephen turned around and he has worked with this and

1:24:27 now his rights have been taken away from him in jail, that

1:24:30 someone who has been convicted of a crime like this cannot have

1:24:33 power over that. And so now he won't.

1:24:35 He can't be buried there either, so he can't.

1:24:38 So now that Sydney will be with their boys, just the four of

1:24:41 them, and Robert will not. So Steven is Steven's a great.

1:24:46 Hero Hero in this. Story.

1:24:48 A magazine. Yeah.

1:24:49 I'm glad that she met someone who was like that.

1:24:52 Yeah, me too. So yeah, that's awful that in in

1:24:55 death that man could still have power over her and still abuse

1:24:58 and this abuse continues. And that's where the media suck

1:25:02 shit that they keep this abuse happening for these people and

1:25:06 that is not OK. We've got to out court system

1:25:09 and the media needs to be better at protecting women and children

1:25:14 particularly because they are more in this situation, more

1:25:17 likely to be in that situation. I'm not dismissing that men are

1:25:20 in abuse situations, absolutely. But it is a bit statistics point

1:25:24 in a direction where it is more prevalent that women and

1:25:27 children need to be protected in these situations.

1:25:30 Absolutely, Yeah. Well done.

1:25:33 That was a pretty heavy one. Oh yeah.

1:25:36 So, you know, if you got to the end, well done.

1:25:41 If you need support, we've got different types of support

1:25:45 listed in our show notes below. But please seek assistance in

1:25:48 whichever country you live if that's something that you need

1:25:50 to absolutely to discuss with somebody.

1:25:52 Because, you know, the murder of three innocent young, beautiful

1:25:56 boys is just, it's a lot. But I think it's also important

1:26:00 for us to cover cases like this because we're bringing light to

1:26:05 a situation that, I don't know, is just so damaging to so many

1:26:11 people. And I think awareness is

1:26:13 everything when it comes to these types of things and

1:26:15 knowing what to look out for and also knowing that people like

1:26:20 this in situations like this exist in our communities and you

1:26:24 never know what somebody's going through.

1:26:25 No, no. Yeah, absolutely.

1:26:30 Well, thank you very much everyone.

1:26:32 Yeah. Thanks for joining us.

1:26:33 So next for the next few weeks, actually, we've got a little bit

1:26:37 of a treat for you in some ways. So because we're coming up to

1:26:41 the Easter break over here, which is in Australia, we also

1:26:44 have school holidays around this time and Meg and I are doing

1:26:47 various things over that time. We are actually going to bring

1:26:52 you a little mini series of little mini episodes over the

1:26:56 next few weeks focusing on school shootings in the US.

1:27:00 So we're going to pick a few, a handful and cover those, and

1:27:04 there'll be just a few mini episodes coming out over the

1:27:07 coming weeks. And how many we can get.

1:27:10 Oh, we're gonna do our best. We were like, can we keep them

1:27:12 to 30 minute? Episodes.

1:27:13 I remember when we started this podcast and we said we were

1:27:15 gonna do 20 minute episodes, Emma.

1:27:17 I remember that. I don't even think we get the

1:27:19 bands done in 20. No, not usually.

1:27:23 That's all right. Well, stay tuned for that and

1:27:26 then, you know in the next in the coming weeks, we'll be back

1:27:29 to our regular full programming for.

1:27:31 Sure, but that's why you still get something to consume over

1:27:33 the next few weeks. Yeah, that's it once we're out

1:27:36 of action. That's it.

1:27:37 Yeah, we're. Having fun.

1:27:38 We're not out of action, but yeah.

1:27:40 We're out of podcasting action just because it's really hard to

1:27:43 record podcasts when your kids are at home with you.

1:27:45 Exactly, especially when you're dealing with the content.

1:27:48 We are also the noise. Just be horrific.

1:27:50 Just check out the end of episode the Carol Baskin one to

1:27:53 find out what you'd really be listening to if we entertain

1:27:56 these allowed children. Yeah.

1:27:58 Yeah. No thank you.

1:27:59 No. No one.

1:28:00 No, no. All right, thank you everybody

1:28:03 for tuning in. As always, please like the

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1:28:26 We absolutely love it. Really sparks a bit of joy in

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1:28:31 Always open to suggestions and I think we mentioned a few

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1:28:43 Perfect. Excellent.

1:28:44 Thanks, everybody. Stay curious.

1:28:46 Crime besties. Bye.