Episode 42 - The Columbine High School Shooting

0:15 Welcome back to Crime Besties, to another episode of the show. We first of all need to probably say sorry for the break, the unplanned break. But you know, like it's like, yeah, it's my fault, it's my fault. I'll take full responsibility for it. Too many holidays, not enough time, you know how things go. So for you, yeah, for me, it's a hard life. Went to South Australia with my family and it was lovely. And then I did a bit of a three night cruise with some work friends or ex work friends. So is it a booze?

0:47 Cruise. Oh, look, it ended up being a little bit like that. I mean, when you've got a drinks package on a cruise, why wouldn't you take full advantage? Like I gotta pay for pay for this. Somehow. Oh, it's definitely. Yeah, yes, gotta make the most of it, your drinks. Package. It ain't free, you know, like no, that's. Right. That's right. I've already paid for this. I might as well get my money's worth. That's right. And some. Yeah, we had one of our party. So there were, I think there were eight of us who went.

1:13 And the girl I was sharing a room with, Lana, she ended up getting really, really seasick. Yeah. And I mean, it was really rough. It was like, very even the crew was saying how awful, awful it was. So Paul, Lana didn't quite make the most of her drinks package. And I don't think cruising's in her future. But the rest of us, you know, we had a pretty good time. So it was nice. Oh, that's not good at all. I mean seasickness can be horrendous like. Yeah, we ended up taking her to like the little medical facility on board, which was it was.

1:48 Oh God, it was funny. Not for her. I. Know, I bet. But she was saying even after having the anti nausea medications and the injection and everything, she didn't feel good until we were back on solid land. Oh. Yeah, so. And pretty much she'd get on solid land and it goes. Yeah, that's what she said. It was like straight away. It's. Almost like you're pregnant, like you have that baby and oh, I don't want coffee. And I do. Yeah, it. Turns out I feel amazing.

2:14 It's not sucking the life out of here. Exactly. And I've only been like seasick once and it it was horrible. Like, yeah, I'm usually pretty good, but it's gotta be pretty big seasick to get me. Yeah, OK. Yeah. Oh, yuck. Anyway, how were you? How was? Your break. Oh nice. It was good. We had lots of fun with the kids doing lots of different things like go karting and we went to this great farm down Mornington Way where they get to be hands on with all the animals and stuff. And so did that with with big crew and of friends and family.

2:44 And that was really good day out. So now we had a really good holiday. So I really enjoyed it. It felt a bit longer with the Easter tacked on. So I think we've got a lot out of the the weekend, the couple of weeks. So yeah, I mean, back at it though. Exactly. It's like everything's back. Everything. 'S back and the new season of everything started, so we're like trying to figure out the new schedule. My last. Two nights. I was saying to you, let me see you last night going Oh my God, my Wednesday.

3:10 Thursdays are just. Yeah. So what time did you get home last night Last? Night we didn't get home too bad too. As in too late. As in it was what time was about 6:30 OK. And it still feed them dinner, you know, bed. Routine stuff like it's late. It's late for that. Like to do those things but the night before we didn't get home till 8:00. Oh yeah. So that's gonna be our regular on a Wednesday night. Oh. That's yeah, yeah, yeah. So. That's that's way past my bedtime. Like kind of. Oh yeah. Yeah. Is that like just take away as you're moving around between activities?

3:42 So how are you gonna manage I? Wouldn't be able to do anything in life, I think, without my mum. All mums are the best. Yeah. So I've we've worked it out. I mean, she's gone away today herself on a cruise. So I mean, the next few fortnights, a few weeks, I'm not gonna use her, but we will. I'll basically go to the her place after school. She's gonna have dinner for the kids at like 4:00. Oh, that's for them. To have so but we've I found though that they they they eat like no worries because they then do 2 hours of sports running around we've finished up training and like roving shoving yeah so I still have to top them up again so thankfully the canteen at this where we train is open at that time and I yeah and I'll probably be able to shove something at them from chips out there the.

4:26 Chips from there are so. Good. Yeah, they are. So yeah, they they grab some of them on the way out. Yeah, yeah. But you've still got to like, then go there and order them and then you wait for them to cook them and then so that's. All because they cook them to order, don't they do. So which but that is easier than me trying to get home and then prepare stuff. Oh, so I just threw fruit at them as we walked in the door, kind of going like right shell while you eat some fruit like the other one like oh, it's just kill me.

4:53 Yeah, that's hard. So then back it up with not such a late night the next night, but still. But then like if you're getting home at 6:30, by the time you cook dinner, it is still a late night for the. Kids, it is a late night for them. So yeah, yeah, it's gonna be, look, the beginning of our week's nice and calm. So yeah, it'll take those days to really chill out and have a few early nights. It's pretty mental, but we will survive. Yes, we will. Yep, they love it. I have a very quick shout out before we get started with.

5:21 So many like the no joke with the two weeks we've been off. Yeah. I mean, even like prior, like the episode that we did release prior to that, our socials have popped off like trying to keep up with. It's been big. So I love it. Thank you, everyone. That's all commenting and, you know, inboxing us and it's amazing. So good. So the person I picked to shout out today, she actually had the most amazing suggestions and I actually can't believe we didn't have this case on our list. So Alex Rogers, thank you very much number one for your gorgeous inbox message.

5:54 It was lovely. But her case suggestion was Jen Shah. I'm like, how did we not have that on? I think because. Like it's almost like that's not a crime, it's just housewives. So I was saying to Meg, we will slot that in after we've had like a really heavy week or something that's been really hard for us. We could. Do maybe there's a few within housewives? Maybe we could do like a little mini series series on that. Yeah, there's a few housewives with some criminal history. Aren't there, though. Oh, it's juicy and it's fun.

6:25 Yeah, yeah. I mean, at the end of time, there's always a victim you. Know. Yeah, true. Respectful, but absolutely at the same time like we can yeah, we when I saw that I was like, oh, this is how have we not how have we. No, like who are we anyway? Thank you, Alex. That's it, that's it. So what we decided to do is a series that we're going to do 3 of the US school shootings. We're going to try and keep these episodes quite short and a bit. Look, the themes are very similar going through them. So today you're going to hear an episode on the Columbine school shooting.

7:05 I'm sure a lot of us, especially of our Generation Meg, remember the bowling. Yeah, Michael Moore documentary. Which documentary? It is amazing. I actually watched it again in preparation. I actually wanted to and I didn't. I didn't do it and I really should have. Yeah, I'm going to because. Do watch it back because I actually got more from it, I think watching it now than I did back then. I reckon I absolutely, that's what I thought too. Yeah. Because you've we've got a different perspective on life I think these days for.

7:36 Sure, but also the fact that we now know how much has happened since then and how many, how many times this is just being replicated and how school shootings in the US are just for the course. That's not if, it's when almost I'm just. Saying researching this like, you know, we've sort of researched 3 different ones over this. We're gonna do three that are like, you know, basically roughly 10 years apart. Each of them like that's right. So 1 from 30 years ago, 20 years ago and no, sorry, more recently, sort of 20 years ago, 10 years ago and yeah, more recent.

8:01 And. And it just so interesting that you know, in the wrap up of like researching all of them, each of the one each, each one you would read. And in the aftermath, there was, you know, it sparked conversations around, you know, gun and violence and law, law and things like that that should be around guns. And it was like, you know, that. But we talked with 20 years ago that sparked that conversation. And, you know, 10 years ago you'd sparked that conversation. And recently we've sparked that conversation, but yet to see any major changes in the.

8:28 USI think that's something that we can talk. About a lot, absolutely. Yeah, for sure. During this. So yeah, as I said today, we're doing Columbine, We're going to do another release on Friday. So you get 2 episodes this week. Lucky people. Oh. What do you want to do? We'll do. Thursday. Do Thursday, all right, fine. Thursday, you'll get another. Episode Thursday, Yeah, and then you'll get. And then Tuesday next week, and then from the week after that, we'll be back to our normal episodes. Well. I think we're going to do a double.

8:55 Double. We are two. Party kids are big one we're going to do. Yeah. So stay tuned for that. Yes. All right, should we get into? It let's get into Columbine. Yeah. Oh. My gosh. Yeah, right. On the 20th of April in 1999, the Columbine High School massacre took place. So like giving a bit of context at the time, this was probably the first well known school shooting that occurred in the US And it really has, it really did kind of start a snowball effect of what we've now seen. And what we now almost, I think there's almost a bit of a complacency.

9:36 Like you'll hear about a school shooting in the US saying, Oh yeah, another one. But these are the guys that, you know, really started it all. With the school shooting, the. School shooting targeted The massacre occurred at Columbine High School in Colorado in the US and the perpetrators were 12th grade students. Their names were Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold. They murdered 13 students and 1 teacher. Ten were killed in the library and the other students were killed. I think there was hallway. And then one of the teachers was actually killed in like his office.

10:15 And it was at the time the deadliest mass shooting in a school in the US. Yeah. It's currently ranked #6. Yeah, isn't that. Disgusting. These are like there is like a ranking of these, Yeah. Just blows my mind. But yeah, currently ranked #6. Yeah, it's, it's horrific. Absolutely horrific. And the number of injured in this was huge. It was 20 people just who were injured, let alone and then the 16 killed. So there was a lot going on. Yeah, I just. Said. I feel like how do we actually even get into it because.

10:50 Yeah, I think this one, this one really when this happened, I have to say these guys were the exact same age as me at the time. So like, I think when I know that when this happened, IA lot of my friends and I were talking about all this like, like the yeah, bullying and things in school was definitely something that happened, you know, within all schools. But how do you get to a point of where you decide that I'm going to go and shoot all these people, you know, we were all experiencing in high school and still today?

11:20 I mean, to be honest, I wouldn't want to be a high school student. I think it's far worse, but they there was so much talk around the fact that the the motivation of this was bullying and things which I don't know if that was really ultimately the motive. Do you know what I mean? Like. The thing that I think about this one is like when you read anything about the Columbine High School shootings, there's a lot of narrative around the fact that these two boys played a lot of video games. Yes, that's the other thing that gets mentioned.

11:50 A lot too, and that like that's the blame for it. But fuck off, I'm. Sorry, research has sort of proven that that's not the case exactly. And also how many millions? And probably up to billions of people play these first person shooter type games or any sort of semi violent or violent games. Yeah who don't then go on to commit a mass murder. No like to me I. Think it's chemicals in the brain of that particular person. Oh, for sure, you. Know it's a combination of those things not just, you know, or we play video games or, or he was bullied.

12:23 You know, I think you're right. I think that the the bullying and the video games are actually more consequences of other chemical imbalances in the brain and like what the effect those things have on that person. Yeah, okay, that's an interesting take. I mean, that absolutely is possibly true. I mean, we don't know because The thing is these two perpetrators died by suicide at, you know, at Columbine High School on the day they shot themselves. And I believe that was their plan all along. Yeah.

12:52 What they actually planned to do was they drove their cars to the to Columbine High School, parked them in the in the parking lot, and they actually put bombs in the cars in the parking lot. And the cafeteria. And, and in the cafeteria, they wanted them to go off at like 1117, which was like right when the. Lunch. Lunch rush or whatever, the first group of people were going to be in the cafeteria, obviously maximum impact there. Yeah. What they then hoped was going to happen is that would then drive everyone out of the building and into the car park, where those car bombs would then go off and inflict more harm.

13:32 Yeah. They planned on sort of also like shooting people as they were coming, exiting the building as well. Like that was sort of those sort of. Yeah, that's where they were aiming for. And I have to say these two boys, so Eric Harris was sort of considered the leader of of them. They were. Called the Trench Coat Mafia. The Trench Coat Mafia. Well, they, they weren't, that was actually a video they they used to make. They were part of like the video club, whatever. Yeah. And they used to make these videos and they made a movie around the Trench Coat Club or the Trench Coat Mafia.

14:00 Sorry. Now they were not part of this group that were at school. They had friends who were in the Trench Coat Mafia, right? But they weren't specifically in it, but they chose specifically to wear those trench coats on the day because they did a fair bit of research before doing this. They took it was almost a year, it was a year discussing this and planning this. And they were actually decided purposefully to wear those trench coats because of what they had researched and found that that they appeared intimidating.

14:28 And because of this trench coat mafia stuff, they found that they thought that would be the most scariest to the people to come across. To be honest with you, that works. They were. Yeah, All right. They're all right. And you'll find if you look TuneIn since then, like those people sort of copycat this, that there are others who have worn similar. And there's kind of like, if so, if you you know, you when you think of a someone who's doing a school massacre, unfortunately, that image does come to your mind of the trench coat and things.

14:56 Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's a good way, I guess, for them to conceal weapons and that kind of thing. Yes, Which is what they did. They had their weapons in their trench coats. Well, I don't know. I don't think if conceal is a way to is, I don't think they were hiding the fact that they were carrying those weapons. It was more just that they had somebody to carry them like you know what I mean? Because they. Think they have to be at the start. They were, yes. Because they, you know, to to get into school and to wait until, you know, the first bomb went off.

15:21 Yes, Yeah, yeah. Yeah, unbelievable. Yeah. So on the way out of sort of 6:00 AM-ish in the morning, they're actually gone and purchased the, what do you call it, propane. They haven't that gas tanks to be able to set these bombs off. So they had done that first thing in the morning and then driven off to the driven to the school. And I just say it around, they're expecting these bombs to be going off sort of 11:17-ish at the school. When they didn't go off, they failed. At 11:21 they just began to shoot.

15:49 People, yeah. They were just like, oh fuck it. We might as well just, you know, go for it. Go for it ourselves. Yeah, they didn't. They just went in. So they from the parking lot, they began shooting and they hit their first victim in the in the parking lot and the school near the school entrance at 11:24. So I mean, this is the thing that's all very. Quick, quick. But it's this is the thing. Guns have that ability, like it's just it's open fire. Yeah. They both entered the building via the cafeteria at that point, 1124, and they just began shooting.

16:19 So students were hit in the cafeteria, as we said, and then on in the hallways, they started moving towards the hallways and the the students like there was a 2000 students at this school. Yeah, it was it's a massive school. So there were like a rampage of students trying to exit as quick as possible and find ways out. I can't even imagine how scared they all would have been. And to do that, I mean, so there were injuries that were sustained by students that weren't gunshot because people were. You know, they were multiple trampling in like injuries, like crushed blunt force trauma type injuries because people were crushed by being trodden on and that kind of thing.

16:56 Yeah, 1129 they reached the library where they continued to target students. I believe that there were certain students they were looking. For as well. That's right. They had a list of people on, on Yeah, of people that they wanted to target and people they absolutely wanted to eliminate during this murder, during all of this. And the people on the list, you know, it might have been because they said something wrong to the most or ignored them or there was apparently a boy on the list who just because he was the quarterback and he was popular and so they hated him.

17:35 And so they, yeah, they absolutely had people that they wanted to target. And when the police, I mean, this is going a little bit ahead now, but when the police found this list, found the list and went through it, they actually did achieve, I think they ended up killing like 70% of the people who were actually on that list. So they were definitely targeting certain people. They obviously knew where they would be and when. And then the people who were on the list who, who then weren't killed. My God, Can you imagine?

18:09 Can you imagine? How you would feel after that? Yeah. Like, I mean, I don't know, what if you were, if you were sick that day, I don't know. And you weren't at the school, but you knew you were on that list. Like, I mean, you go buy a lottery ticket, like, because you just lucked out. But like, you'd feel sick that other people died as well for the fact that, you know, he was, they were looking for you, you know, like I just that the survivor's guilt of that would be, I think, a bit really hard, really hard so.

18:34 Hard. Yeah, So, so hard. So once they've got into the library, again, this was a major central point of where many victims were killed. So that was 11/29, 11:36 AM. The police began arriving on the scene. Now, they didn't mean they entered the buildings or anything, but they did. They did arrive and they started securing the perimeter, but no one, none of the police entered the building at this point. They just were assessing the situation. Now, if I do understand that from a point of view of like this is not at this point, like with this shooting, this is not something that's normal.

19:10 They don't know how to maybe deal with this situation, but they do learn a lot from this. Where they learn a lot and then implement is a different story because we'll get to that with other cases we look at. I did hear an interview with one of the first police officers who attended Columbine High School. And he said, you know, they went in like, the SWAT team were there. Yeah. And they went in sort of not knowing. Do we still approach this like we would an adult situation where there's, but I mean, they at this stage, they didn't even know who the shooters were.

19:45 They didn't know that there were students or anything like that. But they're like they, they, they're like, this is a school. Like, do we have to change? Is there something different we need to do? So there are questions about that right from the get go. And yeah, as you said, it has informed different procedures and protocols. Into the future, but you can understand some hesitation from these. Oh, absolutely. And women who were the. First responders because. It would have been a really tricky judgement call to make.

20:17 Like, what? What's the right thing to do? No one actually knows. And you've got an active shooter situation like, oh, God. And they didn't know how many there were either at this point. I mean, I think that that was established pretty quickly, Yeah. Because obviously students were running out and they were able to give first, you know, witness reports to the police, who was sort of still standing outside trying to figure out what to do. I think The thing is too, and it's really hard, like you've got to protect the officers like, you know, sending someone in, you know, blindly to an active shooter situation.

20:52 That's not smart either. That's not maybe. I mean, you know, they get become victims themselves too. So it's it's awful. But then this police officer said in his interview, he's like, you know, I took an oath to protect and serve. So I had I had to go in. Yeah, I had to protect those children who were in there who were innocent. Absolutely. Oh, it's horrible. It's. Absolutely awful. Yeah, So 1208 Harrison Klebold. They moved through the school from the library to a separate part of the building.

21:22 I'm not sure what their their goal here was in terms of whether they knew where they were going at this point or not, but they was escalating more and more. However, they did take their own lives at this point. And so that's basically, but still at this point, the police didn't know that they had taken their own lives. They just I get I I would assume you're kind of going there's not I haven't heard shooting in a while, but you still don't know that person's not and they. Didn't know that there were only two.

21:46 Yeah, like, you know, there could have been another 20 for all they hiding, hiding somewhere. That's right. So. The police actually didn't enter and secure the building until at 1:00 PM, and which at which point they started evacuating students and they went through. But they actually didn't clear the building entirely to work out exactly who the shooters were and who wasn't and who this is the thing. You can't just evacuate people and let them go because you don't know which one of them, like maybe one of them is the killer.

22:12 Like, you know, that's done this. So there was a way of they have process they had to do to keep everyone there, you know, to keep witnesses and everything that's. It, I mean, they had 2000 students, I think 600 staff, something like that, a huge amount of people that they needed to, yeah, you know, account for number 1 and #2 yeah, as you said, eliminate them as potential suspects. Yeah. And so I mean, they, they did try and set up a call coordinated effort to do that. Yeah. And but as you said, that takes time that you can't just process that.

22:42 And of course, people, so this is back before mobile phones. Really. This is back before, you know, so people are getting the news either by word of mouth, Yeah, or they're hearing it on the radio. They're hearing it like, you know, it was by the stages on the midday or the afternoon news broadcast on TV. Yeah. But that then drew a whole new bunch of people to come to Columbine because, of course, if you're a parent and you hear that you could not keep me away. So it's just. Yeah, you can imagine the state of chaos that surrounded that event at the time.

23:18 I just wanted to very quickly go back though, because one of the things that especially Bowling for Columbine definitely touches on this, the access to guns for these boys. So in the months prior to these attacks, Harrison Klebold acquired 29 millimetre shotguns and two, sorry, 29 millimetre firearms and 212 gauge shotguns. I don't know anything about guns, but they're big guns. Some of, well two of them were big guns and two of them were like little like handgun type guns. And he was 17. 17 These were actually purchased by a friend of theirs named Robin Anderson, and he bought them at a gun show.

24:08 They were supplied by two people by the name of Mark Maines and Philip Duran. Yeah, these both, they were both actually convicted as well. So they, they were convicted for supplying handguns to minors because they were only 17. Yeah. So they and they were legally in possession of these weapons as well. So it was old. OK Anderson was kind of a bit of a middle man, right. To these guys. Yeah. But so Mains received six years in prison and and Duran received 4 1/2 years in prison, right. But there were other lawsuits that also came, came out.

24:45 So there was a financial ones as well where they were held their families. We're having to pay a lot of money, their victims families, because as a consequence of their actions in this, because otherwise 17 year olds, even in America don't have legal rights to having possessing guns. And so they the fact that they had these guns, they weren't even like that. They got them from their parents in their home. No stole them from them. They had sourced these from people, so there was a whole. Thing around yeah yeah I think they met those blokes through their well like their part time job at.

25:18 Their part time job? Pizza parlor or something? Like that? Yeah. It's just absolutely crazy. They also just very quickly, the way there was, they were looking up how to make bombs and all of that kind of stuff. Yeah. And putting bits and pieces together. And a whole website about it. He's like, he. He put together Exactly. Yeah. It was on AOL. Yeah, yes, 90s, Yeah, that's even bit of the Internet. Room back, bit of. A throwback, Absolutely. But yeah, so his, his website really went unnoticed basically for a long time until the thing that really sparked what brought brought it to us some attention was that he posted A blog post of saying that all I want to do is kill and injure as many as of you as I can, especially a few people like Brooke Brooke, Brooke Brown.

26:09 Brooke Brown's parents happened to see that on this website and they contacted police. Police actually had investigated the whole thing and had an affidavit put a request in to have a search warrant of the household of Eric's household. However, for some reason that just never got submitted to a judge. Yeah, it never went. Anywhere. And so I don't know what happened this that could have potentially put a stop to all this. Because the thing was, not only was his webs, well, once his website got a bit sparked like that, he really knew obviously, because it was investigated.

26:43 He knew that he'd been looked at. He switched from using the computer to write his stuff to writing in notebooks and the notebooks. Holy crap. Oh my God. Yeah, you can. You can actually see, like, photographic images of things that he like of those notebooks online. Oh my God. So psychologists have thoroughly like gone through those and looked at his writings and it's been put forward that they, they, there's many psychologists like highly thought of thought. Psychologists believe that he was, would be considered a psychopath with many other underlying narcissistic personality traits, borderline personality and social personality, like it combined with all of that.

27:22 So there's, there's a lot going on for him as and that's, I think before we're saying, before that that he's saying, you know, the the well, society is saying that bullying is to blame and that video games are to blame. When actually ultimately he had a personality trait, psychopathy and psychopathy that were underlying that probably then led to, yeah, people, other people finding him strange and odd and therefore bullying, which I'm not, I'm certainly. So not defending that that is the way people should be dealt with.

27:51 But that's probably where that came from. And the video games became an interest because he was a psychopath. Yeah. So it's not that those things aren't necessarily what. Cause and effect exactly. What went on? I think he would have gone down those path, that path regardless. Could there have been interventions potentially? Yeah, like what were his parents seeing? And. Well, they were they were a military family who moved around a lot. So I mean, that's and that's seems to be there's somewhat of a pattern in I'm not saying again that everyone moves around a lot becomes a psychopath or anything, but there's.

28:27 Socially, that's really difficult socially. And if you're, if you maybe have some kind of mental illness that would potentially make, you know, making friends more difficult and putting down roots and that kind of thing, you know that that would be more challenging. Yeah, Yeah. The other thing that came out of his writings that I found really interesting was that he had quite a fetish for bondage and Oh yeah, foot fetish. Oh yeah, he wrote, he wrote. My, my humanity has a foot fetish and bondage extreme liking.

29:03 I try to thwart it. He also described his desire for sex with women, especially for raping and torturing women. He had a real negative opinion of women in his writings, things like that. He also expressed an interest in cannibalism. Oh. Yuck. He stated that he would like to dismember a woman with whom he could have animalistic sex and eat her flesh. Oh yuck. So I think that it was probably good that he said goodbye to himself. Yeah, they saw some, He had some very intense pornography as well in his possession when they searched his home.

29:53 And it was maybe not to the point of cannibalism, but it was certainly sort of the torture of women. Yeah. Depicted in in that pornography. Yuck, yuck. Yeah. So I think for Dylan, unfortunately, I think he got caught up with him. He was a bit more, he was easily influenced. I don't, he didn't appear to have as many diagnosable disorders or personality disorders and things like that, that that was noticeable. But he did have writings as well that he kept and was certainly a disturbed kid as well.

30:27 Yeah, but was led by Eric. Yeah. I mean, yeah, he was the ringleader for sure. Yeah. Whether or not he would have done that if Eric hadn't come into his life, don't know. Yeah. Oh, gosh, Very awful. Very, very awful. But at the end of all of this, I mean, as we were saying you, I mean, I just can't understand the gun laws in America in this situation. It was a little bit different that they accessed them illegally entirely. So. And I applaud that there were convictions around that, that that's how that that should be the case that these people were found.

31:07 And police obviously did a good job of their investigation after the fact to be able to do that. Absolutely. What they were convicted of though was supplying guns to a minor. I don't know where their responsibility lies in terms of the fatalities. I know legally they. Weren't held legally responsible for it to a degree. Yeah. No, I don't think they were. I don't think they their sentence reflected that. You know, not the sentencing, but there was civil action. So there was a two and a half million dollar lawsuit awarded to the victims and a portion of that was paid by.

31:42 But was those? Families look that that I couldn't find and I know, and this is the thing I do find those rulings. I guess you've got to go into those with those civil suits in a respect of like you just want it to be known that they were accountable. Because whether or not these, I mean, I'm sorry, but many of these families are not going to have two and a half, $1,000,000 in their back pocket to go and pay out these things. So I don't know how that works, but I believe of the two and a half 1,600,000 of that was was given to the two men that were convicted of the gun, the the possession of the guns.

32:18 OK. So I mean, it's a fair Oh, no, sorry. One of them more than that even actually I think it was that was 600,000. No, 600,000 was one of them. The the main main guy, main and Duran I think was like, I want to say like 300,000 like yeah, yeah. So in wrapping up, we just would like to pay respect, obviously, to the victims of this. As we said, there were 16 people who were killed. One of those people I should just go back to actually one of the 16 that were killed in this incident actually died, I want to say, 26 years after.

32:54 Yes, 26 years after the shooting. Yeah. So Anne Marie Hock Hockhalter. Yeah, Hockhalter, I'm hope I'm saying that. Right. I think it's Hockhalter. So she was shot in the chest and back and confined to a wheelchair after the shootings. She was actually, it was really sad. Her mother actually committed suicide to in 2009. And she used a gun. Yeah, to do that which I just sort of feel like that's. Too much. That poor girl. And like, just, yeah, she, she actually was quite an advocate for gun law and all these things, too.

33:29 She was quite an activist, yeah, which was really good on her. But apparently the doctors actually said that her wounds were the worst they saw on that day of those that survived, obviously. And they couldn't believe she survived as long as she did. Shocked that she survived. So on February 16th, 2025 S only earlier this year, she died at the age of 43. She died due to sepsis, which were complicated by the two gunshot wounds that she had received. Mm hmm. Which is just tragic. So that's really sad.

34:02 But it goes to show that these shootings, they are not a one day event. You know, this woman has lived, yes, 26 years and she would be grateful for every one of those days, I am certain. But it's impacted her life hugely, and not just hers. Then everyone else is around all of this so. There's a podcast called Confronting Columbine, and one of it's, it's made by one of the survivors by the name of Amy Evans. Yeah. And it's a fairly recent podcast, but she talks about it. She's an adult now, she's got her own children, but she talks about it like it happened to her yesterday.

34:41 And she just says, I have to live with this every single day. It's not something that will ever leave me. And so I think this is one of those ripple effect type situations where the actual toll of this is untold, that you could never quantify it because so many people were affected by it. Think about the first responders. Think about, you know, all of the staff and students and their families and even the community. You know, it's just. The yeah, that that you would have of going to school, which which keeps me scared of having going to school.

35:19 Well, every American child is probably fearfully or at least has this in the back of their mind. They do active shooter drills and that kind of thing in schools these days. Like, that's crazy. Yeah. So the first fatality was Rachel Scott. She was aged 17 and was killed on the grass outside the West entrance by Harris. Yeah, Daniel. Rob, Rob. Rob was 15. Killed at the bottom of the stairs leading to West entrance by Harris. And we had Anne Marie Holcutter, which we've already spoken about. Next we have William David Sanders.

35:56 So he was actually a sports coach. He was the basketball coach for the school, apparently. He was such a lovely man. Like he, you know, all of his students really looked up to him. And he was one of those people who had a heart of gold. Students would go to him for so many different things, for counselling and that kind of thing. And he was just a really genuinely lovely teacher. Yeah. And loved doing what he did. Yeah. He was shot in the hallway adjacent to the library by Harris, and he died of blood loss in a science classroom.

36:31 Awful Kyle Velasquez, 16, and killed sitting in a chair near the middle of the North Computer computer lab by. Dylan Then we have Stephen Kerner, who was aged 14, killed in the West End of the South computer table in the library by Harris. And Kathy Bernal was aged 17 and killed under a library table and by Harris and then. Isaiah Shoals, aged 18, killed under the library table by Harris. Matthew Kector, 16 and Killed under a Library Table by Klebold. Lauren Townsend, aged 18, Killed under the library table by Klebold.

37:21 And then John Tomlin, aged 16, killed under the library table by Klebold after being also wounded by. Harris, Kelly Fleming aged 16, killed next to the library table by Harris. Daniel Mauser, aged 15, killed under a library table by Harris. Corey de Puta, aged 17, killed under the library table by Klebold. And then the shooters killed themselves and that's this. And they add up to the 16 that were killed. I mean just. Absolutely horrific, heart goes. Out to all their families and friends. And the people who are still living with this day, you know, day in and day out, there is a memorial to all of the victims at the site, at the school.

38:13 And apparently it's quite a powerful, imposing almost, you know, remembrance to, to all of those or tribute to all of those who died. I, we can probably get into this in one of our one of the next two episodes because I just noticed this one's already gone way longer than what we thought. But what the fuck? Oh yeah, yeah. What the fuck? Yeah, absolutely. Two more sleeps, guys, and we'll release the next one. Absolutely. Till then, stay curious. Crime besties. Bye.