Episode 40 - Sophie Toscan du Plantier

0:15 I I welcome back to crime besties to another episode.

0:18 Hey Meg, how are you? Oh man, I'm here.

0:21 Yeah, I have. I think my brain with me, so I

0:24 think. Well done you.

0:25 We were just talking before we hit record and you have had

0:28 quite the week. Well, so have.

0:29 You, let's be honest, we've we've both had a week.

0:31 I've had a very heavy emotional week and I mean, there's just a

0:36 lot going on and oh, so many balls up in the air at the

0:39 minute. And it just, you know, it's that

0:41 one little thing like I thought, OK, I'm getting through this,

0:44 I'm doing well, I've got shit sorted, I'm coping.

0:47 And then one thing happens, which in isolation, not a big

0:51 deal. No, but it's just that that's

0:53 what makes the cup runneth over. It broke me.

0:56 Yeah. It actually broke me.

0:57 Yeah. I was crying at basketball

1:00 training this week so. We've all been there.

1:05 I just, I don't know, it was just all a bit much, but I am,

1:09 you know, sometimes a bit of a cry is all you need to then.

1:13 This is it because we have to. Just an upward.

1:15 Be honest with ourselves that it's tough sometimes are not

1:19 good, and it's OK to feel like that and feel overwhelmed by

1:24 this stuff. I mean, life is tough, yeah.

1:27 And if we don't acknowledge it, we turn into a mess at the end

1:30 of it. So take care of yourself and

1:33 yeah, acknowledge the that things are tough.

1:36 Yeah. And that, look, someone else

1:37 will come around the corner and, you know, might have something

1:40 else going on that you kind of go, Oh my God, in hindsight, my

1:42 stuff shit is small, but it's your shit.

1:45 It's your stuff that you're dealing with.

1:46 And therefore that is not your most important.

1:49 You know, like someone else's stuff is tough too for them, but

1:52 your stuff is your stuff. Peter.

1:53 Peter has this thing that he always says whenever like, you

1:57 know, I get overwhelmed or whatever.

1:59 Yeah, he's like, you know what, everyone has their shit.

2:03 Everyone does. Everyone has their shit.

2:05 It was like during COVID when people would be like, we're all

2:09 in the same boat. Mm hmm.

2:11 But we're not all on the same body of water, like, and it's

2:13 true. Like some days, yeah, every as

2:15 you know, everyone's got their shit, but the the smell of that

2:18 shit varies day-to-day and yeah, yeah.

2:20 And whether or not you can get through it.

2:22 But anyway, I feel a lot better today so.

2:25 One way I know how how like sort of how I'm feeling in terms of

2:29 stress stuff is I've worked out and this is not isolated too.

2:32 I know I'm in a different car that I've been in for a very,

2:34 very long time, the same car. And now that I'm in another car,

2:36 I'm like, no, it's not the car. It's me that I when I get in the

2:41 car and if I have to readjust my rearview mirror, right?

2:45 Wait, I know you're looking at me weird, but if I have to

2:48 readjust my rearview mirror, I know I'm carrying some stress.

2:51 Oh, because you like my. Body in my, in my chair

2:54 differently. And I can't if I'm like stressed

2:56 and I'm like, you know, and I'm feeling like I'm not sitting

2:59 hard tall enough or whatever in my cast in my seat, then I can't

3:03 see my rearview through my rearview mirror.

3:06 Wow. OK.

3:06 Am I weird? No.

3:07 Not at all. I think that's really astute of

3:09 you to recognise. I just don't even know that I

3:11 would think about readjusting my mirror.

3:13 But yeah, I like I try, I go to as I take off in the morning.

3:16 Like this morning I was like, oh shit, I've gotta readjust that

3:18 mirror because I'm actually sitting taller now than I was

3:21 last night because I've had sleep and I'm, you know, and I'm

3:24 starting a bit better. Whereas last night when I got in

3:26 my car and I was driving around with doing the marrying taxi

3:30 service that I did last night. Yeah.

3:32 I had to read just the mirror last night.

3:34 Lower because I'm sitting lower. I'm tired.

3:37 I'm Yeah. Our kids had footy training last

3:40 night and you were saying that you haven't actually like

3:43 spotified your car yet. You didn't you?

3:46 Didn't have a Yeah, yeah. Didn't have towels on hand.

3:48 Bad. Yeah.

3:49 So how did you go getting home? Like, I mean, the car needs a

3:52 freaking vacuum, yeah. And a clean because yeah, there

3:55 was dirty shoes that came in the car and grass.

3:57 And because I wasn't switched on and off like exhausted with the

4:01 ferrying back and forth, the I didn't say to him, take your

4:05 shoes off before you get in or anything.

4:06 Like I'm sorry. I I literally this morning got

4:09 in the car to get out some rubbish that had also been left

4:11 in the car and went oh now if I vacuum the car.

4:14 Yeah, and it'll be. Oh, it's probably worth waiting

4:16 a day until it dries. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

4:19 I can't. I feel like I might have even

4:20 spoken about this on the podcast before, but my mother-in-law

4:25 reckoned back in the day she used to keep A roll of black

4:28 garbage bags in her car. My mom did that.

4:31 Out the head of it and make them wear that home.

4:33 I just don't know how safe that would be like seat belt safety

4:36 wise, like slipping under like you know how you know, I don't

4:39 know I. Don't know.

4:40 I don't. Know anyway true.

4:43 Back in those days I probably just didn't even have car seats

4:45 and stuff either. So yeah, that's it.

4:46 But it's a free. For all how we all survived, I

4:49 do not know. God no.

4:51 No, I remember think of one stage we had the full

4:52 conversation with my parents about the car seats, you know,

4:55 like What Car seats sort of did we have?

4:56 I don't remember us having car seats and mum was like, you

4:59 didn't feels like this Moses basket thing.

5:03 My mum used to have a just plunk on the back.

5:05 Seat isn't that, doesn't that blow your mind?

5:07 I mean, yeah, that's crazy. I, I still remember like a

5:10 booster seat that I had, but it was literally just like the

5:13 plastic bum bit. Yeah.

5:15 That's it. It was literally a booster.

5:17 Like it boosted your bum up a bit but there's no back of it or

5:20 no? No extra safety any I don't even

5:22 know what the purpose of it is just so it doesn't cut your neck

5:25 off. Like you would higher up for the

5:27 seat belt, Yeah, but in terms of a car?

5:33 I still remember it was tan with a a really nice mission brown

5:37 like seat pad. Yeah, well, I think too like

5:40 back to like, I mean, these days if you're gonna take extra kids,

5:43 it's like you have enough car seats though.

5:44 Like I had to take, yeah, yours and another and Brody and I like

5:47 had to have make sure I had my extra car seats in the car to

5:49 like have them all, to have boosters.

5:51 And I'm, you know, and they're eight years of age, like they're

5:53 not like they're little kids. And I was thinking about it,

5:56 going by the time I was like 8 and my younger brother was 6 and

6:00 my older brother would have been like 10 and the next door

6:03 neighbour's kids. So the five kids plus an adult

6:07 would all pile into the one car to get driven to school every

6:09 morning. And one of those cars was a tiny

6:11 little Datsun. Plus the school.

6:13 Bags like, where did we all fit on each other's laps?

6:18 Probably literally, yeah, we would have piled on each other's

6:20 laps and that's how you just would.

6:22 Have. But I remember that was just

6:23 normal back in the day, You, you would just have four or five

6:25 kids in the back seat. Yeah.

6:28 Yeah, yeah. Let alone the back of a Ute.

6:30 Oh, fun. Fun to do that too, yeah?

6:33 This week I we are doing an international case but I just

6:38 wanted to touch on before we get going because it'll be annoying

6:41 if I talk about this mid episode but how much do you love an

6:46 accent? Oh, Oh my gosh, I love an Irish

6:49 accent. Oh, I work with an Irish lady

6:52 and I just. I work with an Irish lady, so my

6:54 Irish friend is the one who suggested this case.

6:57 Yes. A tractor.

6:58 Yeah. Oh my God.

6:59 I could listen to her talk. Yeah.

7:01 All day, every day. Same.

7:03 Yeah. Oh, it's just.

7:04 But I. Also love about the Irish though

7:06 isn't just their accent, it's their.

7:09 Turn of phrase a phrase at. Times and just the backwards way

7:11 of coming at things occasionally there's actually for this

7:13 particular case, the very beginning of like the one of the

7:17 documentaries for this, there's a guy who says you know so I was

7:20 the last person to see her before she died except for the

7:24 other person who saw her. Yeah, I know.

7:28 Actually I. Remember watching that it is so.

7:30 Very funny, like Oh my God I love that song.

7:32 Yeah, like him. Yeah, I, I didn't kill her.

7:34 I was the last person to see her alive.

7:37 Except for the person. The other person and I love it

7:41 how they go like at the end of everything.

7:43 I just did so good love. It love.

7:45 It so good. I love, I love an accent.

7:48 And then obviously there were French accents Institute.

7:51 Oh, it sounds so elegant. To me, they can say anything and

7:54 it sounds. Delightful.

7:55 I know. It's just nice.

7:57 And then our accents, I find are so harsh.

7:59 You know when you go overseas and oh, you're talking in an

8:02 Australian accent and it does sound so harsh against other

8:07 languages, I'm like, oh God. Definitely.

8:09 Oh my gosh, yeah. Have you been to Ireland?

8:12 No, I haven't. Peter's been, hasn't he?

8:14 Yeah, yeah, yeah. I didn't get to Ireland.

8:16 I've been to Scotland, but like, didn't get across to Ireland.

8:18 I really, really, really, really wanted to go because I think it

8:19 would be stunning. I mean, just looking at the

8:22 landscapes from this case, yeah, it looks beautiful, absolutely

8:28 beautiful. It's on the list for sure.

8:31 Yeah, definitely. Sure.

8:32 Yeah, I do have some shout outs for today before we get started

8:37 with the case. So we've had a few coffees

8:41 bought for us by Balloon Joy Adelaide.

8:45 Please check her out on Instagram.

8:47 Oh my God, If you're having a party in Adelaide, you need to

8:50 get onto this lady because her balloon installations are

8:55 phenomenal and she's got so much variety in there.

8:57 I, I just, it looks, it's balloons and it just looks so if

9:02 effective and so amazing. Yeah.

9:04 And so creative. I just oh, amazing, amazing.

9:09 I also have a few other shout outs.

9:10 So these are people who've contacted us on Instagram mostly

9:14 that I looked at this week and have shared our page and have

9:18 put put us sort of out there into their little, you know,

9:22 their little online worlds as well, which we really, really

9:25 appreciate because we're we're definitely seeing that reflected

9:28 in the number of people who are listening to us each week.

9:31 So we really appreciate the shout outs.

9:33 So we've got the garden at Jason Manor.

9:36 And and again, those gardens. Holy, Oh my.

9:39 God. Amazing, amazing.

9:41 I I am the last person who can garden and so I very much

9:45 appreciate people who can. Be like looking at that going at

9:48 beautiful. Gardens going.

9:49 If only I could. And a country mum, so I think

9:54 the garden at Jason Manor account, the lady from there

9:57 found out about us through a country mums who's a Queensland

10:00 mum living on the land. And again, I just love the

10:03 aesthetic of their Instagram pages.

10:06 They're amazing. So give them a follow if that's

10:07 the kind of content that you like.

10:10 And also we had Leanne Robinson and Trish Musket who sent us

10:13 some really lovely messages as well.

10:15 So thanks so much guys for for your support and for contacting

10:19 us. We love, we love it when people

10:20 want to engage. Absolutely.

10:21 Please keep that coming. Yes, and we just like, we're

10:24 just saying before, like we get blown away by people like

10:27 contacting us and and telling us they're enjoying the podcast

10:30 'cause we, we, you know, we have moments where we're like, we

10:32 don't believe that people listen and they work it out analytics

10:35 and go, Oh my God, what they are.

10:37 People are actually listening and it's growing week on week

10:39 and we just, yeah, it blows our minds.

10:41 Absolutely. This morning I was chatting with

10:44 one of my I do BFT body fit training and I was talking to a

10:49 couple of my gym buddies this morning.

10:50 So bit of a shout out to Fee, Erin and Jules because they all

10:54 listen and Fee was saying to me this morning she's like how do

10:57 you have time to even do this? She's like, do you just have an

11:00 earpod in all the time and be like no, sorry, don't talk to

11:02 me. I'm like, I wish.

11:06 I know I get caught out sometimes at work.

11:07 I'll have it in like, well, I'm doing stuff.

11:08 Then someone will come into my office and I'm like, and they're

11:10 like, Oh my God, sorry. Like, you know, if like I'm

11:11 doing something like, you know, work, I get it on there.

11:14 Oh, no, no, no, come in. Like I I need to stop doing what

11:17 I'm doing. It's fine.

11:18 It's fine. Yeah.

11:20 So look, we do our best. We were talking this week.

11:24 Neither of us have had probably the normal amount of time we

11:27 would have to to research this week, but we've done our

11:30 absolute best and we have to fit it in and around everything else

11:33 that goes on in our lives. I was up until really late last

11:36 night and then I was up early this morning for gym.

11:38 So we, I just sort of, you know, we fit it in where we can We.

11:41 Run the smell of an oily rag? We'll be right.

11:44 Nights for me are always just a bit of a shocker.

11:46 Oh. Yeah, exactly.

11:47 Ahead of a Friday recording. That's where like you kind of, I

11:49 feel like, you know, you get through a week of like that of

11:51 like where I'm like trying to fit it in everywhere and feeling

11:53 like, you know, we'll get, we'll have an episode today

11:55 absolutely. Like, you know, kind of stuff,

11:57 but like you feel exhausted by it.

11:59 But then you get those beautiful messages and you kind of go,

12:01 well, it's worth it. Like we, we're putting in this

12:04 effort, but people are enjoying the effort we're putting in.

12:06 Then we'll keep coming back and keep doing it.

12:08 Yeah, that's it. As long as people still listen,

12:11 we will still make the podcast. Absolutely.

12:13 Thank you. All right, let's get into

12:16 today's case. So today, now I'm just going to

12:20 straight up, we will probably butcher names today, 100% names

12:26 of places and of people. There'll be places where there

12:29 were times when I just go like, yeah, and I said it correctly, I

12:33 did. Yeah, Mumbledo.

12:34 So we're really sorry. We're really sorry in advance.

12:38 We are going to do our best. Yeah.

12:41 So today we are talking about the case of Sophie Tuscan

12:45 Duplontiere, who is a French lady who was murdered in West

12:52 Cork in Ireland. Now the name of the place where

12:55 she was murdered? Can we just clarify because I've

12:58 heard it. Skull, Yep.

13:00 And Shull I think it's skull. I was going with Skull.

13:03 Yep. OK, cool.

13:04 So the only reason I'm saying that with such conviction, yes,

13:08 is because I actually went on to you know how you can like

13:11 Wikipedia. Yeah, like.

13:13 Yeah, and they've got and hear it and it's.

13:15 It was Skull. Yeah.

13:16 And then most of the documentaries were Skull.

13:18 I think most places and it more so like if I heard English or

13:22 Irish people saying it, it was more often skull.

13:24 Yeah, but then I'd just be like, oh, but someone else is saying a

13:27 different way, like so. I'm pretty sure it's Skull Coco.

13:30 So Sophie Bunyol was born on the 28th of July 1957 in Paris,

13:36 France to parents Marguerite Bunyol and Georges Bunyol.

13:41 George was a dentist and Marguerite was actually a deputy

13:46 mayor for the central district in Paris.

13:49 Oh, my God, yes. Wow.

13:51 So. My God.

13:54 An impressive woman. Yeah.

13:55 And you can absolutely tell in interviews with them that they

13:58 are a professional couple. They're very well spoken.

14:02 Yeah. I mean, obviously they have had

14:05 an enormous tragedy in their lives and it has, you know,

14:08 taken an impact. Absolutely had an impact.

14:11 Yeah. But they are really lovely, down

14:14 to earth people. Yeah.

14:17 Sophie had two brothers, Bertrand and Stefan Bunyol.

14:22 Stefan has sort of stayed out of the limelight a lot.

14:25 He hasn't done a lot of media interviews, but Bertrand has

14:29 sort of been a bit of a family spokesperson.

14:32 And he's definitely sort of been at the forefront of, of getting

14:37 Sophie's case out there, I think and for like to pushing the

14:41 police along and certainly helping Sophie's son Daniel,

14:46 yes. You know, Oh, sorry.

14:49 No, Pierre. Louie.

14:50 Sorry. Getting myself already confused,

14:54 Pierre, Louis. And, you know, to to find some

14:57 resolution for for the family and get some, I don't know,

15:01 justice, if that's what we can even call it for Sophie.

15:04 Yeah. All right.

15:07 All right. So there's not a lot of out

15:09 there around around Sophie's upbringing.

15:14 I know it was a fairly pleasant upbringing.

15:16 They lived in an apartment in basically in the centre of of

15:19 Paris. So yeah, you can imagine maybe

15:21 what that might have been. Imagine.

15:22 Growing up in Paris, I mean, I remember standing in Paris, like

15:25 going, this is a whole another world.

15:27 Like, how do you get used to seeing this every day and

15:29 walking to work or, you know, like, I'm to school.

15:32 Yeah, Yeah. God, I just kind of like, I

15:34 don't know, Melbourne's a nice city, I guess.

15:36 But she's nothing like that. No, no, it's impressive.

15:40 Like just wow. Yeah.

15:41 So Sophie was a filmmaker, a producer, and I guess in a way

15:47 sort of a writer. She did a lot of writing.

15:51 She had some really interesting ideas for things that she wanted

15:54 to produce. So she had she wanted to produce

15:58 a series. And this was, I think, not long

16:00 before she passed away. She was trying to get funding

16:04 for this project, but she wanted to produce a series on body

16:09 fluids. So she wanted to produce a

16:11 series of like individual shows all about different body fluids.

16:17 So like blood, pus, semen, urine.

16:21 So I think she was quite eccentric in her interests in

16:25 that way, and maybe a little like liked things on the darker

16:30 side maybe. I'm not saying that in any way

16:33 that that was her personality, because by all accounts it was.

16:36 No, because I did read like there was a particular a

16:39 particular piece that she wrote not long before she passed away.

16:45 There was very, very detailed around how she had seen a

16:49 particular animal that had been attacked by another animal and

16:51 found on the side of the road or something or a path out where

16:54 she was walking. And it was quite gruesome how

16:57 she described this. So I think she had a a side of

17:01 her, you know, like that she played with in, in her writing

17:04 and in her work that was on that, Yeah, darker side.

17:07 Yeah, Yeah. So Sophie was married very early

17:11 on. Oh.

17:12 What was her first husband's name?

17:14 I've just had an absolute mental blank.

17:16 Hold on. Well, it I can't remember, but

17:20 I'll pull it off the top of my head.

17:21 Thank you. And they had a son together, but

17:24 their marriage only lasted about 12 months.

17:26 But they did have a very amicable relationship in terms

17:30 of raising their son, Pierre Louis.

17:33 They divorced. Pierre Louis was young and his

17:38 account of his upbringing is that he had a really, really

17:45 close relationship with his mom because it was just the two of

17:49 them for such a long time. They were incredibly close.

17:54 He lived with his mom throughout the week and then used to see

17:57 his dad on the weekends. When Pierre Louis was around 10

18:03 years of age, I think, Sophie met a very famous director named

18:13 Daniel Toscan Duplontiere. Did you find his name?

18:15 Nope. Nope.

18:16 OK, I. Don't think actually, now that

18:17 I'm looking at it, I don't think I actually.

18:18 Read it, I think I have. I have heard his name.

18:21 No, I have. Yeah, it's not in Wikipedia.

18:23 It's not on any of anything that like it's not coming up.

18:27 It just brings up Daniel whenever I would be searching

18:29 it. Yeah, OK.

18:30 Yeah. So Daniel being her second

18:32 husband, very famous film producer in France, one of the

18:36 biggest producers in France. Yeah, he owned a production

18:40 company. He also did some directing and

18:42 lots of different things within the film industry and was very

18:45 highly regarded. Yeah.

18:46 He had such a high profile that one of his best friends was

18:50 Jacques Chirac. So the former, well at the time

18:53 current my biggest memory. Of him is like and the Wheeler

18:56 is Sydney. Yeah.

19:01 I always go back to like those moments.

19:04 I love that that's where your brains gone.

19:05 Yeah. Yeah, that one.

19:06 Yeah. Yeah.

19:07 So look, he lived a certain life being that he was in the film

19:12 industry. And even though Sophie, who was,

19:16 you know, she was an incredibly beautiful woman, very

19:19 attractive, but she was very understated.

19:21 She wasn't showy. She wasn't at the type to wear

19:24 lots of makeup and glitzy clothes and that kind of thing.

19:27 But she sort of did keep in the background a fair bit.

19:30 That would still attend certain red carpet events.

19:32 So clearly it's a natural beauty though, too.

19:34 She did not need a ton of makeup to be able to just pull it off

19:37 at those events either. So she was stunning like that.

19:40 She that she, yeah, wasn't, didn't feel comfortable in those

19:42 environments. No, no.

19:45 So much so that I guess she really craved solitude and

19:51 craved, you know, life or time outside of her busy life in

19:57 Paris. Yeah.

19:58 And so she decided that she needed a retreat.

20:01 And she'd visited Ireland, I think, a few times as a child

20:05 and loved it. Yeah.

20:06 So she decided to actually purchase a property in Ireland

20:11 of retreat, I guess, somewhere for her to go.

20:13 Yeah. I think she was quite

20:14 introverted and therefore. Braved that solitude so it

20:22 eventually LED her she looked at a few places around Island but

20:26 she was definitely attracted to sort of that West Cork coast

20:30 yeah and she came across this little farmhouse and absolutely

20:34 fell in love and I. Don't blame her.

20:36 Holy crap. Well, OK, I mean, I mean, it is

20:40 stunning. Yeah, but the house, right?

20:42 No electricity. Yeah.

20:44 Wood fired. Like 1 wood fired oven and a

20:48 wood fired heat. Like, you know, an open

20:51 fireplace. Yeah.

20:52 To heat the whole thing in Ireland.

20:55 Yeah, yeah. And it's so remote.

20:58 There are. You know, so remote.

21:00 So like I mean, people said like to when this sort of occurred,

21:03 trying to find this place was a nightmare.

21:05 I mean, this is pre Google Maps as well.

21:08 To try and find this place is just near on impossible.

21:10 Like people took forever to get there and and.

21:12 Even people who lived in their little Township of skull, yeah,

21:15 didn't know, didn't wear hair because it was beyond the

21:18 Township. And we're talking like rocky

21:20 terrain too, Like it's, you know, it is, it's hilly and you

21:23 know, it's like 1 lane. Roads like there's you can get

21:27 one car in, yeah, and I don't know what you'd do if you had an

21:29 oncoming car coming the other. I think you really would.

21:32 Yeah, because it's probably really an issue.

21:34 Yeah, but I mean, I totally get it because to me she wanted to

21:39 like just simplicity, and that's exactly what she got there.

21:42 You know, the police described her home in one of the documents

21:46 that I was reading, which I think that they documented this

21:50 on the day that they found her body was found.

21:53 But her house was very. They wrote that it was very

21:55 simply decked out basically. So she had the.

22:00 Glimpse and glamour of what she. Had, but she had her minimal of

22:02 everything. She didn't have many much

22:04 cutlery. Yeah, she had two mugs, 2 wine

22:07 glasses, 2. Like she didn't have a lot of

22:09 anything. But that's the thing, she would

22:11 go there on her own or with her and her son, like that was sort

22:14 of. Really.

22:15 She'd sometimes take a friend. Or her mom on occasion, there'd

22:17 be one other person with her maybe.

22:19 I mean, she might have flashed out on the occasion, had two

22:21 people visiting her. Yeah.

22:22 But that was what it was all about was quiet time.

22:25 And yeah, she, I love that she in one of the bedrooms, she

22:29 raised the bed so that she could lookout the window, remove the

22:33 curtain and everything so that she could have the lighthouse

22:35 that she could see in the distance with the light would

22:37 then shine her room and things and she could lookout the window

22:39 and watch that like. From her bedroom she had a bed

22:41 raised light and stuff a meter and 1.2 meters or something off

22:44 the ground so that she didn't have so she could see out of the

22:47 window. Yeah, interesting to note none

22:50 of her windows had window coverings.

22:51 No. And The thing is, I think this

22:53 gets spoken about as in this way of like, oh, she wanted people

22:55 looking in and like this. I know what?

22:57 They're random. They are like, you know, yeah,

23:00 there's this, you know, the comment I think in one of the

23:01 documentaries was like, you know, like, oh, she was, you

23:04 know what? This French woman might be

23:06 wandering around naked in her house, you know, like, because

23:08 it's what French women do. And, you know, like, I'm sorry,

23:11 but she lived. It was living there, you know,

23:13 on odd occasion. She wasn't there for long.

23:14 She'd go for small trips and things.

23:16 And when she was there, she was alone.

23:18 Like, you know, why she didn't need curtains.

23:20 There was no one walk wandering past.

23:22 There was no Rd. out the front and cars driving past.

23:24 Good on it. Like have the fresh air and the

23:27 fresh light coming through your. Sorry but who?

23:29 Who's saying she was walking around her house naked?

23:31 Oh, this is. That's what's what.

23:32 It's implied by it, like yeah and no.

23:35 She wasn't, no. And even if she was, who cares?

23:37 Why would you comment? On it.

23:38 No, this is it. Like it's, it was so to me, it

23:41 was such a misogynistic kind of approach.

23:42 They said like, oh, she had no curtains.

23:44 Absolutely like whatever, like she can do what she wants.

23:47 There's no one else out there her.

23:49 Nearest neighbors were, I'm gonna say, close in inverted

23:52 commas, Yeah, but they were still a decent walk up the road.

23:55 There was A and. Across the other side of the

23:56 road, there's no way they would have been able to see in from

23:58 where they were anyway. Especially like this particular

24:00 room where you know that they would talk commenting about

24:02 because it was up high. And it looked out away from the

24:05 other house. Yeah, which she probably

24:07 wouldn't the way that hill. Fell like kind of stuff.

24:10 It would just, you just would have a clearview of everything.

24:12 Yeah, whatever. They say she lived a really

24:15 simple life when she was there, too, in terms of even the things

24:18 that she ate. She'd take a loaf of bread, some

24:20 honey and a bit of butter. Yeah, and that's what she'd kind

24:23 of and some wine and that's what she'd live off for, you know,

24:26 the couple of days that she was. There.

24:28 Well, she's not silly, no. Love that.

24:32 Should we get to the day that it happened, now that we've?

24:34 Sort of been set the scene. Yeah, we've set the scene.

24:37 There's not a huge amount of. Pictures of like the property on

24:41 our socials and stuff too to get that visual of it too.

24:44 I think it helps because when I the first in researching this,

24:48 the first things I did, I was listening to a lot of things and

24:51 then. But once I saw it, I was like,

24:53 oh, now I can see exactly what, yeah, what you know, what it all

24:56 meant and, and the way it all all panned out.

24:58 Absolutely. So on the 23rd of December in

25:01 1996, Sophie was only 39 years of age.

25:04 At this time, she was found by her neighbor.

25:10 Shirley. Foster yes, she was dressed in

25:13 her. So.

25:14 Shirley she she was actually just leaving to go.

25:18 I think she was actually going to church.

25:20 No, she was going Christmas shopping because it was right

25:23 before Christmas. She was going up to the shops to

25:24 get the last minute Christmas presents.

25:26 We've all been there. And she was driving down the

25:29 road and something caught her eye and then she actually drove

25:33 past and then went, oh, actually, I think I need to go

25:36 back and have a look and see what that was.

25:37 That was a bit weird. I think what more grabbed her

25:39 attention was the fact that the gate was open now.

25:41 So there's like a number of gates on this property, but this

25:43 is like the front gate of it. And they kind of shared where

25:47 their houses were. It was actually sort of a shared

25:49 access kind of area. So this gate actually kept

25:53 livestock out in kind of thing as well.

25:55 So living in those kind of rural areas, if a gate's shut you, you

26:00 shut it behind you. Like that's the rule of thumb.

26:01 If you know, you never, ever leave a gate open, that's that

26:04 has been closed. So, and everyone said that

26:07 Sophie was very diligent about this particular gate, that it

26:10 was, you know, she never left that open.

26:12 So when it was she was saw that this gate was open, that was

26:16 very unusual so. Then something caught.

26:18 Her eye. And it wasn't just at a jar.

26:20 It was wide open again. I'll put photos of that.

26:23 Yeah, I think that's, I think it would be good for people to be

26:26 able to see. Yeah.

26:27 What she discovered when she sort of backed back and got out

26:30 of her car was a body that was unrecognizable to her.

26:35 The face was unrecognizable. The body was dressed in white

26:38 pajamas, like Long John type pajamas, because we're talking

26:42 December in Ireland, freezing, freezing cold.

26:48 But the interesting thing was that the person lying there was

26:53 wearing boots and they were fully laced up, like big winter

26:56 boots that were fully laced up her.

26:58 Dressing gown was not on, but it was with her.

27:01 So it was underneath things. But yeah, yeah.

27:04 So she obviously had did have that on to begin with.

27:07 Yeah, the body was sort of covered or rolled, kind of like

27:12 tangled up in barbed wire. And these briars that are oh, my

27:16 God, again, we should put a photo of that up because these

27:19 briars, they're the spikes on them are so long and they look

27:24 so menacing. Yes.

27:27 They really are. So obviously the neighbor has

27:34 then gone, alerted the police. And Elfie went to her husband.

27:39 Sorry, I shouldn't explain that. Elfie was her husband who was

27:42 with her. He went to up to Sophie's house,

27:46 ran up there to check her. Like because they didn't

27:50 actually couldn't recognise who this person was.

27:53 He went to go and check on her and sort of say to her, there's

27:56 someone around. It's not OK.

27:59 Yeah, yeah. So he went to the house at that

28:01 point. So at this point, I think they

28:03 knew Sophie had come to the home, yeah, but they hadn't

28:07 spoken to her or anything. They knew she was hot around but

28:10 hadn't. Yeah.

28:11 Yeah, hadn't, but I think that was pretty typical, though

28:13 Sophie did sort of buy all accounts, sort of keep to

28:15 herself, and it wasn't unusual that they hadn't spoken with her

28:21 when Elfie figured that he couldn't raise anybody at

28:27 Sophie's house. Whether he went there to see,

28:31 oh, is this Sophie like, you know, or whether he went there

28:33 just to tell her like. I guess he was probably hoping

28:37 in a way that he was just going to tell her to be careful.

28:41 Well, we'll see. But then, so I what was the

28:45 wife's name? Sorry.

28:46 Shirley. Shirley.

28:47 Thank you. Shirley stayed with the body

28:50 while Alfie contacted the Garter.

28:52 Yeah. The Garter.

28:54 Chicano. I can't.

28:56 It's. The Garter.

28:57 And do you know what that's short for?

28:59 What? The Guardians of the Peace.

29:02 Oh yeah, I'm not going to try and say the actual proper word

29:04 for. It but Khanna or something like

29:06 that place but but. The actual inter, the actual

29:11 translation of it, of the full word, yeah, is is Guardians of

29:14 the Peace. Oh yeah, well, that's not that.

29:18 No, that's really nice. So obviously, because she lives

29:25 in such a remote place in, you know, it's coming up for

29:29 Christmas, it actually took the guards a long time to get there.

29:34 Yeah. And when they did get there, I

29:37 mean, they sent 2 Philly junior police officers.

29:40 Well. Junior guards to make it very

29:42 clear there was hadn't been no murders in this area in living

29:47 memory. Uh huh.

29:48 So they have no, like there's no one on the force in this area

29:53 who has experience with this and knows how to deal with.

29:57 This. I saw a guard interviewed and he

29:59 basically said the worst thing I have.

30:01 I'm not even gonna try the accent.

30:02 I was like. Oh, she's gonna do it.

30:05 He was like, the worst thing I ever had to deal with was a

30:07 traffic infringement that somebody didn't want to pay.

30:09 Yeah, yeah. So it's not it's completely out

30:13 of their wheelhouse. And look, to their credit, they

30:16 obviously recognised that and called in.

30:18 Called in other people. Other people from Dublin, so

30:21 they called in homicide squad and crime scene investigators.

30:26 Yeah, but the actual day of like finding the body like because

30:29 this is the thing. I mean, we're talking to bring

30:31 someone down from Dublin. That was like what, a 5 hour

30:33 trip? Yeah, it was nearly five hours,

30:36 especially given the Christmas traffic, apparently.

30:39 And let alone then trying to find this, as we said, it's not

30:42 exactly, you know, on a main route.

30:44 No, and that's what they said. They the the contingent from

30:48 Dublin arrived in West Cork, arrived in skull and didn't know

30:52 where to go. No.

30:53 So they had to go to a phone box because all of the police

30:55 weren't at the police station, they were out at the body.

30:57 Yeah. And we're talking in 1996 here.

31:00 So yeah, pre a lot of mobile phony kind of access.

31:04 That's it. Yeah.

31:06 So. And I don't know that there

31:07 would have been any mobile phone access out there anyway.

31:09 There wasn't even electricity. Yeah, exactly.

31:12 So look, it took a very long time for the right people to get

31:17 there. So, yeah, so this included the

31:20 coroner. Now, the coroner, it was his

31:24 birthday on the day on the 23rd. Yeah.

31:27 And so he wasn't actually at work.

31:28 And there was one coroner for all of Ireland.

31:31 You're joking. No, I didn't realize that.

31:33 I just figured there was like this, this is what this guy was

31:36 the closest one like you know, But no.

31:38 He was the one. Oh wow.

31:39 And it was his birthday, so he had the day off.

31:41 So it wasn't until the 24th that he actually got down there.

31:45 Got down there so. Her the body remained at the

31:48 scene, uncovered like nothing. Well, they went to protect the

31:54 scene. They went to one of the guards,

31:57 went to the local hardware store and got a tarp because it had

32:01 started raining. But and they covered the body

32:05 with the tarp, but they didn't seal off any of the crime scene.

32:09 People were walking all over. Yeah, touching things.

32:14 And because it, I mean, any time anything happens in a small

32:17 country town, bloody everyone knows about it in about 30

32:19 seconds. Yes.

32:20 And so, so many people. I mean, we'll get to this a

32:22 little bit later too, but a lot of people turned up and we're

32:26 just like wandering around, having a look, going up to

32:29 Alfie's place for a coffee or a tea.

32:32 Yeah. So that yeah, so her body was

32:34 there for like. 28 hours, 28 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

32:37 Which is just, I mean, as a crime scene is one thing is

32:40 like, you know, the damage that will cause the the crime scene,

32:42 but just also as a family like to know that then that's she was

32:46 just, I don't know. I just left there.

32:48 That's awful. Yeah.

32:51 Horrible. Yeah.

32:53 So when I guess the more expert police arrived.

32:59 So we're talking Corona Homicide Squad and crime scene

33:01 investigators. They took control of the scene

33:07 and started to gather some evidence.

33:10 They tried to establish a time of death and they were looking

33:14 around to see what had happened and what did they find in the at

33:18 the crime scene. So at the crime scene,

33:21 obviously, as we said, they found her dressing gown laying

33:24 on the ground. But there was also these like,

33:26 there's a lot of blood. There was a particular like

33:31 block, a concrete slab, which they I think they weighed about

33:35 23 kilos. It was pretty hefty, which they

33:37 believed was used and also a piece of slate which was very

33:42 bloody that was found near the body as well.

33:46 So these are obviously the weapons that we used and clearly

33:50 they're weapons that weren't bring brought with this person.

33:52 They were clearly ones that were found around where the body is

33:56 was was left. So at the scene that was sort of

34:01 she was, it was a very traumatic kind of scene, obviously a

34:06 fairly impromptu scene by what they were gathering.

34:08 Yeah, I, I've heard them describe it as like it was a

34:11 frenzied kind of scene because of just how significant and how

34:16 many injuries were inflicted. And especially like it was

34:19 definitely a targeted thing and murder was the intent because it

34:23 was the, all of the injuries to Sophie were really concentrated

34:28 around her head. Yeah.

34:29 And so that they think at this time, I guess upon first

34:33 inspection that that 23K cement concrete, I don't know block or?

34:39 You know, I've got, I've got photos I can put up as well

34:41 again. Of that, yeah.

34:42 They're like, that has been literally dropped on her head.

34:45 Like that's how she's died. Looking at that, you know,

34:47 someone's gonna be pretty strong to be able to do that.

34:50 So the other things I found at the the scene which including

34:54 the house, etcetera, the house itself, there was found a smear

34:59 of blood on a now back in front of the house is confusing

35:03 because of the way it is, but we'll call it the back.

35:05 It's it was the less used, less obvious door of the house.

35:08 There was a clear front of like, you know, that in terms of like,

35:12 if you drove up to the house, there is a particular door you

35:13 would have gone to to enter the property as someone, I guess, as

35:17 a guest, you know, whereas someone who lived there

35:20 differently might have used the other door.

35:22 But it wasn't a door you visually saw as you approached

35:25 the house. So there was a smear of blood on

35:27 that door which turned out to be Sophie's, but how that got there

35:31 and where, so where this attack began or what have you is is

35:35 then interesting. Interestingly, there was no

35:37 other evidence found around that blood Smith.

35:39 So it's not like they could see. I mean, I guess it's hard be

35:42 struggle. There.

35:43 Or anything and or nor could they see any blood drops or

35:47 anything like that because this is like a grassy Knoll basically

35:50 leading up to the door. Yes, and I mean there is a

35:54 gravel pavement, but again, they didn't all because it was

35:58 raining then like she would have gotten washed away.

36:01 Yeah, anyway, sorry. I'm sorry for interrupting.

36:03 The only other like major like interesting fact they found

36:07 really was her car. The car seat in the front

36:11 driver's seat was pushed right back.

36:14 So Sophie wasn't a particularly tall person and I couldn't tell

36:18 you how tall she was from she's. 5 foot 4. 5 foot 4 so that's

36:21 pretty much ish where I am like, you know average height kind of

36:24 for a woman, whereas the seat was pushed right back to sort of

36:26 indicate the potential of someone of like 6 foot plus had

36:30 maybe been in the driver's seat potentially.

36:33 Another thing that people talk about that was seen was that

36:35 there were two wine glasses on the drying rack of the sink,

36:40 which personally, I don't think is anything.

36:44 I know there's sort of that people take this as an

36:45 indication. Oh, there was someone in the

36:46 house that she'd been having a glass of wine with.

36:49 But to be really honest, let's say she had a glass of wine the

36:51 night before and that sat on the side in the sink.

36:53 And that was red wine, you know, that she'd had and that was

36:56 still sitting on the sink. It hadn't been washed up yet.

36:57 And the next night she decided to have a glass of white wine

37:00 and didn't use the same glass of wine or whatever, but didn't

37:03 want to use the same glass the night before.

37:05 And so that when she's washed up both glasses, they've gone on

37:08 the side of the sink and turned up.

37:10 I just don't think that that is evidence of of of there being a

37:14 necessarily a second person. How many times have you left

37:17 dishes drying in the dish dry dish rack?

37:20 Like. Every freaking every day in my

37:22 life. Yeah, yeah.

37:23 No, I just, there was a really clear like people were very

37:27 adamant like, so clearly there was someone else there, you

37:29 know, because there was 2 wine glasses.

37:30 I don't think that indicates necessarily there was two

37:32 people. You can't rule it out, but I

37:34 definitely don't think that that's an immediate There were

37:36 two people there. The other thing that the police

37:38 noted when they were looking at the house during the

37:41 investigation on that first day was that there was no sign of an

37:45 assault within the house. No, there was no sign that there

37:47 was anybody else at the house. Everything was neat and tidy

37:51 where it should be. The bed was made.

37:54 There was nothing crazy now. The I'm sorry.

37:57 No, no, no, no. Keep going.

37:58 Sorry. I was just gonna say the thing.

38:01 The one thing that sort of did make them go, oh, that's a bit

38:03 strange, is that her keys were in the back of that front door.

38:08 Yeah. So they're like, did she use the

38:11 keys to unlock a door because someone's knocked on the door,

38:14 shut it behind her and go outside and then the assault has

38:19 taken place? Or like, or did she just always

38:22 keep her keys in the back of that door and that's just where

38:24 they they stay? See, some people do that.

38:26 I mean, I know I had a a lock at a particular house I was at that

38:28 yeah, key always stayed in it like, hey, on the inside of in

38:31 the inside. That was just how we locked it

38:33 and unlocked it. OK, internally.

38:35 Yeah. So I don't even know that that

38:37 necessarily says anything. Says anything.

38:39 The only the other stuff that we need to look at too is that

38:42 there was lights on in the property at night.

38:44 And clearly, I mean this is winter, middle of winter in

38:47 Ireland, it gets really dark as particularly at an area like

38:50 this, very, very dark. So there's no St. lights, no St.

38:54 lights, light, nothing. So there were, there were lights

38:57 on at night. However, when they found her

39:00 body, all the lights in the house were off.

39:03 So let's say. So she had a phone call with her

39:05 husband at about 11:00 PM. It might have been a 2 minute

39:09 phone call, might have been 1/2 hour phone call.

39:11 We don't need to know really. But if she's awake at

39:13 approximately 11:00 PM, it would have been dark as dark, right?

39:16 So she's gone to bed quite late at night, let's say, or been

39:19 interrupted at that point, still very dark.

39:22 If that's when an attack has occurred, there would have been

39:25 lights on, right? Even if something says happened

39:29 down at the gate and she's exited the house like with

39:31 because she's obviously got her boots on, she's going outside.

39:33 Like she knew she was going outside.

39:35 She's not just, you know, you know, indoors with their shoes

39:37 off. She's put her boots on

39:38 specifically. Oh, it's worth noting that she

39:40 didn't wear shoes in the house. Yeah, So, you know, she wouldn't

39:43 have been wearing, been wearing inside.

39:45 So she, she was heading outside and knew she was heading

39:47 outside, you would think there'd be still lights on in the house

39:50 if it was dark for her to return to as she came back, you know,

39:53 kind of thing as well. So there was no lights on in the

39:55 house. Her body wasn't found until

39:58 10:00 AM so and sunrise was at 8:40 AM so.

40:04 The fact that we don't have a time of death because of the way

40:07 the body unfortunately was sort of, you know, was waited until

40:10 it was left for so long. But I think that we could fairly

40:13 comfortably say, I think that's it's that it's happened after

40:17 dawn. So we're talking more 6:00 AM to

40:21 9:00 AM. Yeah.

40:22 Sort of stuff. 30 maybe, Yeah, because you need some daylight,

40:26 but and not only inspected to not have the lights on.

40:29 The other thing is that if it was that pitch black, the

40:32 perpetrator, could they have found those items to have

40:35 attacked her with well. You know no, Unless they had a

40:38 torch, but then a torch would have potentially.

40:41 Been a weapon? Well.

40:42 Well, that's true too. So why wouldn't you use

40:44 something that was at? It was already.

40:45 In your hand, which which isn't the case, they didn't.

40:48 So I yeah, I feel like it that the time frame, it really pushes

40:52 it out to morning. Rather than night.

40:55 I agree. I think it's just I just also

40:57 said before that her house didn't have electricity.

40:59 It did have electricity, it just had no heating.

41:01 So sorry about that. Yeah, yeah.

41:03 So. The other thing was sorry with

41:05 that. So it was heading towards

41:06 autopsy stuff here. Yeah.

41:08 So in her in the autopsy, it was found that she had contents in

41:13 her stomach that appeared to be serial sort of foods or, you

41:19 know, that kind of food that had been consumed within the last

41:22 two to three between 2:00 to 3:00 hours prior to her death.

41:26 So we're talking. And so we're not talking AI

41:27 mean. But then again, in her the way

41:29 she lived now thinking of it, maybe that's the sort of thing

41:31 she would eat for dinner on the odd occasion.

41:34 Yeah, you know, but in my head, I was like, you know, totally.

41:37 That's morning food that's waking in the in.

41:40 Her house, though, they found a loaf of bread.

41:43 It was actually just, it was cut and out.

41:46 So it's not like she'd put it away to because it would have

41:49 gone stale. Like no time in that kind of

41:51 freezing cold weather. Yeah.

41:53 To me, she's been interrupted during a breakfast.

41:56 Maybe while time? Have breakfast, Yeah.

41:58 Not going to bed at eleven 12:00 at night or, you know, 2:00 AM

42:02 like stuff. It's, yeah, I think a lot of

42:04 indication that points to it being morning.

42:08 Yeah. Yeah.

42:09 So Sophie's family. So firstly, Daniel was notified.

42:17 Interestingly enough, he sort of stayed put.

42:21 He was actually at their holiday home in the South of France at

42:24 the time, which is where they'd intended to spend Christmas.

42:28 But. She was She had every intention

42:29 of returning for Christmas. Yes, she did.

42:30 She was. She wasn't.

42:31 Staying in Ireland for. Christmas.

42:32 That's right. She was just going there for a

42:33 few days before Christmas. Yeah, She'd even arranged a

42:38 Christmas present for Daniel that day.

42:41 The day, Well, the day before, on the 22nd, she called the

42:45 gardener to come in and plant a tree outside their window at

42:48 their property in the South of France, and that was going to be

42:51 his Christmas present. So she had lots of plans that

42:54 she was sort of, you know. Looking for 15. 16 years older

42:58 than her? Yeah, 16 years older.

43:02 Oh, sorry, Daniel Dan. Husband, her husband.

43:03 Sorry, I'm talking about her son.

43:04 Sorry. I'm.

43:05 Pierre Louis, you know that was my fault because I bloody.

43:07 Yeah, that's what started that, I thought.

43:09 Sorry, so this is her her husband.

43:12 OK, thoughtful gift. I like.

43:13 Yeah, I like that too, Pierre. Louis was actually with his

43:17 biological dad at the time and was spending Christmas with him.

43:21 So yeah, he, the way he describes how he found out about

43:25 his mum's passing is absolutely devastating.

43:28 This poor little boy, he found out by his dad apparently in the

43:33 middle of the night. He was in his bedroom and his

43:36 dad came in to let him know that his mum had passed away.

43:40 So Kia Louis does say that he was really shielded from

43:45 everything. He never had to speak to the

43:47 Irish Guards. He never had, was never

43:49 interviewed by French police. Yeah, there was nothing.

43:53 He was really removed from all of it.

43:55 And thank God. Because but a level of that too

43:57 was is a bit of a lack of the investigation too, because he

44:01 could have had knowledge of like he was the person who actually

44:03 went with her the most to Ireland and stayed there.

44:06 So he wasn't interviewed at all. Now he might have been able to

44:10 give some sort of like, Oh yeah, mum regularly saw this person or

44:14 had an argument with that person the last time we were here or,

44:17 you know, those sorts of bits of information were not collected

44:21 at that time. So I get what you're saying.

44:23 Absolutely. As a 15 year old kid, you know,

44:25 to have him protected and shielded from all of that is

44:28 great. But it on an investigation

44:31 level, I think there was some information that may not may

44:34 have, who knows, may have been missed.

44:37 But also at that age, potentially, you're right.

44:40 He would have had information that might have been useful.

44:43 Yeah. So Daniel, her husband finds out

44:49 and stays put at their home. That is a heavily criticized

44:54 decision by lots of different people.

44:56 And he, one of Sophie's friends, is interviewed for the Netflix

45:03 documentary. And in that she says she

45:06 actually went to see Daniel not long after Sophie's death.

45:11 And he was devastated. So by the sounds of what she was

45:15 saying, he was probably almost paralyzed by by and wasn't able

45:21 to go there. Sophie's mum, dad and brother

45:26 Bertrand. I'm not sure whether Stefan went

45:28 or not, but they immediately jumped on the next plane, I

45:31 think on the 24th. Yeah, over to get over to to see

45:36 Sophie and identify her body, I mean.

45:38 Everyone's reactions us can be so different.

45:40 I don't think we can judge that, although for me I couldn't stay

45:44 away personally, like I I just couldn't.

45:47 There would be nothing that would stop me getting there the

45:48 same as much as like, I mean, what do you do?

45:50 What can you well? Her body needed to be

45:53 identified. There'd be arrangements that

45:55 needed to be made, but also, I would have to know everything.

45:58 Yeah. Yeah.

45:59 But then I also understand there are people for whom that is not

46:03 what they would want. And I assume for Daniel, that's

46:06 not how he wanted to remember. Something, but it gets taken

46:09 just as a flat out like, well, he's guilty.

46:11 Then yeah. Then what's going on?

46:12 Why? Yeah, that's right.

46:13 Which, yeah, if people are different, you can't judge them

46:17 on their reactions, that there's got to be more to it than that

46:19 to be able to go he's guilty like.

46:21 For sure. So Sophie, Sophie's body,

46:26 originally Bertrand said that he was going to try and identify

46:29 the body and he went to the morgue and, you know, her body

46:35 was unveiled to him. And he said, I, I can't tell you

46:38 whether this is my sister or not because she was so badly

46:44 mutilated. That's, I mean, that's full on

46:46 to me. You.

46:49 I feel like you could. Oh, I mean, that's how badly her

46:52 body must have been attacked. Yeah, you couldn't recognize

46:56 her. Her.

46:58 Mum and dad I think then went to view the body and they, I mean,

47:03 I guess they use different markings on her to sort of

47:07 confirm that it was her. Her mum though said, I think

47:11 they'd had, they had to cut her hair in order to get her out of

47:14 the barbed wire. And her mum said as soon as I

47:18 saw her hair cut I was like Nope, Nope, that's not Sophie.

47:20 It can't be her mother, her long.

47:22 Blonde hair? No, it should.

47:23 Anything that it wasn't your daughter like, oh.

47:26 It's just so I can't imagine as a parent having to do.

47:30 That, oh God, he's just. No, no one should.

47:33 Have no one should ever have to No way.

47:35 Oh, I can't even. I just can't even no.

47:40 So just really quickly before in the lead up to this, and this

47:46 was a fairly impromptu visit for Sophie to Ireland, she just had

47:50 a few days spare, decided to head up there.

47:52 She tried to get lots of different people to go with.

47:55 Her. Yeah, she did an interesting

47:56 one. They all said that like that

47:57 wasn't normal, like quite often she'd want to go by herself.

48:00 Then it wasn't for some reason, or was it because it was coming

48:02 up for Christmas and she wanted the company this time.

48:05 But she tried Daniel, she tried her friend, she tried her

48:07 auntie. Yeah, her mum, yeah.

48:10 And everyone was like, no, no, like everyone's busy.

48:11 It's like 3 or 4 days before because I think she arrived on

48:14 the 19th or 20th of the 20th, 20th.

48:17 Yeah. So I mean, I could, there's no

48:19 way I could just pick up and go if I was, you know, we've got so

48:22 much to do with those. But I mean, her auntie was like,

48:25 Oh yeah, she would have gone with her, no question.

48:26 But she just happened to fall. I'll like really ill, like not

48:30 just like got a cold. Yeah, like really bad flu or

48:32 something. And so she didn't go.

48:34 But yeah, it's so sad that that thought that, you know, like

48:37 this was the one time she what? Was there something play on her

48:40 mind that she wanted someone, you know, wasn't feeling overly

48:42 safe and wanted another person with her or Yeah, so was there

48:45 another reason for. That, I mean, she often did take

48:47 people with her, but then also often went on her own.

48:50 But I, I think the, well, the narrative is that when she went

48:54 with other people, it was like, yeah, come if you want.

48:56 But this time she was quite insistent on people coming.

48:58 Why? Why that?

48:59 That is curious to me. Me too.

49:02 Me too. Yeah, in the investigation of of

49:06 this crime, the police were able to see CCTV footage of her

49:11 arriving at Cork airport and arriving wherever the airport is

49:16 closest to Cork anyway. Yeah.

49:18 And nothing seemed out of kilter.

49:22 There she was, you know, she had her luggage and she got into the

49:25 usual, got the hire car and which is what she always did.

49:28 And there was nothing unusual in that, in that respect.

49:31 Yeah, she the night before she died, she sorry, the day before

49:36 she died, she'd actually gone to on this walk to 3 castle head.

49:42 And this was Oh my God, absolutely stunning.

49:46 Like it's, it's like almost out of a storybook that's so

49:50 beautiful, like out of a fairy tale.

49:52 Yeah, she'd gone on a walk. Is that the castle that's like,

49:55 haunted? And stuff too perfectly yeah

49:57 yeah, yeah. And apparently there's this,

49:58 there's a there's this folklore of a, a white woman.

50:02 And if you see the white woman, then death is imminent upon.

50:05 And so people are like, she must have seen the white woman when

50:07 she went up to three Castle Head and whatever.

50:09 Whether or not that's true, I don't know.

50:11 Yeah. After that, she actually went to

50:14 O'sullivan's Pub, which is the local pub in In Skull and had

50:19 some tea and just chatted with the locals.

50:21 And by this stage, it was really starting to get dark because I

50:24 think does it get dark about 4:00 PM or?

50:26 Something gets dark really, really early.

50:28 And then sunrise this time, at that particular time, it's

50:31 really short days. Really short days.

50:33 Yeah. Because we're hitting.

50:33 It's quite N like, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

50:37 So just really quickly I wrote a few facts down about Skull

50:41 because it is a really small town and it is kind of in the

50:45 middle of nowhere. Every so Irish, very Catholic,

50:53 everyone goes to Mass. That's where you find out all

50:55 the Goss. So on Christmas Day, so this is

50:58 now 2 days I guess after after Sophie's death, everyone's at

51:02 mass, everyone's speculating about what's happened.

51:05 There's so much cheater chatter about it.

51:08 After Mass, everyone goes on a Christmas swim.

51:11 They all go into the ocean, freezing cold ocean, and go for

51:15 a zoom at midday on Christmas Day.

51:17 I think people live so long. Yeah, that.

51:19 Yeah. I mean it is cold water therapy

51:21 they bought knew about it back in or before 1990s.

51:25 Absolutely, yeah. So what the locals were saying

51:29 though, was on this particular Christmas Day where there was

51:32 always a sense of community and a sense of openness that no

51:36 longer existed. And so people would, this was

51:40 the kind of town where you wouldn't lock your doors and you

51:42 would just leave your car open when you went into the shops

51:45 and. I think I said to be a local

51:47 though, you had to have a family history of living in the area

51:50 for 100 years. Yeah, and there are those.

51:53 People that's that's legit who like who lived there?

51:56 It was either to the extreme of you had generation after

51:59 generation after generation living in there, or you were a

52:02 Sophie. Yeah.

52:03 What they called a blowing. A blowing.

52:05 I love that term that, you know, it came and went and from other

52:08 parts of the world and but it became like this town a little

52:11 bit, I guess early to early days, Byron Bay kind of esque

52:15 like, you know, there. Was that's the feeling of it?

52:17 Yeah, really alternative kind of people potentially living there

52:19 there. Was a lot of artists.

52:20 Artists and things a lot of you know, like there was the game

52:23 lesbian community that were living in there.

52:24 There was, you know, pockets of all sort of, you know, just a

52:27 little bit, you know, left of center, like kind of people that

52:30 have gathered here. And it sounded like the most

52:32 quaint place to live. But also very welcoming.

52:35 Welcoming and accepting. Nobody was judged, not who they

52:38 were or what they were doing. It wasn't like, oh, you're a

52:40 tourist, like, you know, that you're a blow in that, you know,

52:42 that we don't want to talk to you or anything like that.

52:44 Those people would were, you know, definitely brought into

52:47 the community and, you know, welcomed in.

52:49 So sounded like a great place to live.

52:51 But there was was sort of a bit of a, you know, the groups that

52:54 did exist though, too, Like there was sort of, you know,

52:56 that part of the art art group or part of the other group, you

52:59 know, kind of thing. They communicated like, you

53:01 know, like we don't talk to them, but there was little you.

53:04 Know little pockets. I mean that happens.

53:06 That's human nature isn't it? You're attracted to the people

53:08 who like the same things that you do.

53:09 But they'd all meet down at the pub on a yeah, you know, Friday,

53:13 Saturday and brought us all in Monday night.

53:14 Have a Guinness, Absolutely, I see it.

53:17 So at this Christmas Day ocean swim that they would all get

53:22 into, people were talking about starting to lock doors again and

53:27 being really concerned they would.

53:28 Have shot like absolutely shook the town.

53:30 That there was a murderer among them.

53:32 So I mean, it really sort of changed the vibe and the feeling

53:37 of the town. Yeah.

53:38 At this event the police attended and they sort of put a

53:43 very casual appeal out to anybody who'd seen anything to

53:46 come forward because we're two dates.

53:49 So Christmas Day, 25th of December, obviously we're a

53:53 couple of days down the track and they have nothing to go on.

53:57 They've got no idea what's happened.

54:00 They haven't even got like any leads really.

54:04 Not so. Where do you even start?

54:07 Where do you start? Yeah, they did question like

54:09 people in the town obviously who saw her that evening and, and

54:12 the days prior and opened up a, a, you know, a hotline kind of

54:16 thing for people to ring in and, and give any tips.

54:19 And they so they were able to place her where she'd been over

54:21 her days that she prior to being to the murder, which was all

54:25 very normal stuff like, you know, just suggesting what she

54:28 was doing. But there was one particular

54:30 phone call they got, which was from a pay phone.

54:35 So they weren't able to trace who this person was.

54:37 And when they gave left their, the information, they only gave

54:40 their name as Fiona. And the information that she

54:43 gave was that she had seen a man acting oddly at a particular

54:47 bridge, which I'm can't. Tell the father good work.

54:50 Thanks. OK, cool.

54:51 On a particular bridge that was just down the road from Sophie's

54:55 property. So she had seen him on that

54:57 evening acting oddly. And it was a man in a long coat,

55:00 tall, which met some of the criteria they were looking for

55:04 in terms of the car situation. A man big enough to have lifted

55:07 a 23K block, you know, sort of stuff.

55:10 And so he. Was wearing a black and a.

55:12 Beret and a long black coat and so this information was that

55:18 really all they had at the time of like someone being in the

55:20 area. So they would, they tried to

55:23 contact, they wanted to get back in touch with this woman and she

55:25 did ring a second time I think and leave give a bit more

55:27 information, but again, only said her name was Fiona.

55:30 So what happened was she had that first phone call?

55:33 Yeah. But the police didn't get her

55:35 number. No.

55:36 They got nothing. They've got no other.

55:37 Details which you're. Entitled to do and.

55:38 Absolutely anonymously. They actually traced the call,

55:42 realized it came from a phone box.

55:43 So, yeah, the police super contendant did was go on the

55:47 local TV news, yeah, and made an appeal and said, look, we've had

55:51 this information from this person that they didn't need

55:53 more information, but we need more information.

55:55 So if that person can please contact us.

55:57 Yeah, this Fiona saw that, yeah, but waited until the next

56:01 morning to call the police back. Well.

56:03 Yeah, because she really didn't want to be public of who she

56:05 was. She also had to find her way to

56:07 a phone box again because the second phone call she made was

56:09 from a phone box. Gave a little bit more

56:11 information, Yeah. But then decided there was

56:15 actually more information that she needed to give.

56:17 And this time she mistakenly, I suppose, made the third phone

56:21 call from her house. Yeah.

56:23 And what the police found when they traced that call is that it

56:27 came from the home of a woman named Marie Farrell.

56:30 Yeah. So, Marie, what do you think of

56:35 her? I don't know, I'm so like I go

56:40 back and forth. I.

56:42 Feel like, so we'll get to this in a second.

56:46 Marie made a statement that basically what Meg had just

56:49 said, that she saw this man on Kilfeda Bridge and they said to

56:53 her, do you know who he is? And who did she say?

56:56 Well, first of all, oh, sorry, No, yes.

56:58 No. And then she rang back again and

57:01 said she'd been down at the supermarket and happened to see

57:04 this man again in the supermarket wearing the black

57:07 long coat and in the supermarket in the local town, You know,

57:11 she's where she is. She's like that's that guy, like

57:14 who is that? And apparently in the

57:16 supermarket someone said, oh, that's Ian Bailey.

57:19 And so she was able to go back. She didn't she had heard this

57:21 name but didn't know this man. Like to like she didn't heard

57:24 that name mentioned around town, but didn't marry up or that is

57:28 that person until this person said the name.

57:30 So then she's apparently gone back home and rung the police

57:34 again and said I've found the name for you.

57:37 His name is Ian Bailey. So that put the cops to go and

57:43 OK, we need to go and look at this Ian Bailey.

57:46 Now Ian Bailey is a very interesting person.

57:49 He, he was living in West Cork in the area.

57:54 He had lived there for, I think 11.

57:57 Years, yes. So he was an Englishman, yes.

58:00 And he decided to move. So because he was a poet, a

58:04 self-described poet, his poetry's fucking shit.

58:08 And the locals had been like had to sit through all that at the

58:11 pub every now and then because. He was a bit of a drunk.

58:13 He'd do it at like the deli when he was going to get cold meats

58:16 and he'd be. Doesn't surprise.

58:17 Oh, well, no, it doesn't, does it?

58:19 No. So he was a journalist by trade.

58:22 Yes. And yeah.

58:24 I mean, he just asked him who was anything he wanted him to

58:27 be. Yes.

58:28 A really great one at that. Mm Hmm.

58:31 He moved to Skull in West Cork because he said he was sort of

58:37 looking for a community of like minded people.

58:41 Also, well, so he separated from his first wife and that was when

58:45 he moved there. And so there's a little bit of

58:47 a, you know, what was he running away from him kind of situation

58:51 that there was. Yeah.

58:52 I think there was some fairly dodgy stuff that the breakup of

58:55 the marriage was for a damn good reason.

58:56 Yeah. Yeah, so he was abusive towards

58:59 his. First wife and we don't know

59:01 much about that to be honest. The police did never interviewed

59:03 her or anything which I think getting a back story of who he

59:07 was beyond his the current partner that he was with at that

59:10 time which he was abusive too, which is absolute evidence of.

59:15 To know then what he what the first marriage was like, I think

59:18 would give even more understanding of who he was as a

59:20 person. Context.

59:21 Yeah, yeah. He was living in like a little

59:24 apartment or something, or a little unit type of thing,

59:27 cottage when he first moved to Cork.

59:30 But then he met a lady by the name of Oh my God.

59:33 They were all she went by Jules. Jules, thank you.

59:36 That wasn't Jules. But yeah, Jules had two

59:40 daughters and they, she lived in a really lovely looking, again,

59:45 very quaint cottage that also had like a guest house, a

59:49 studio, a studio type thing. And she was an artist and she

59:52 was actually a very good artist. And she met Ian and they got a

59:56 bit friendly and, and he was kind of looking for somewhere

59:59 more permanent to live. So he actually rented out her

1:00:02 studio initially and then as he says.

1:00:06 You know, one thing led to another and then we were a

1:00:09 couple. And so he's weaseled his way

1:00:12 into the main house. They ended up being together for

1:00:15 like 25 + a long. Time a very long time.

1:00:18 Yeah, a number of occasions where though she was

1:00:23 hospitalized due to abuse that he inflicted upon her.

1:00:28 There's a really horrible story of and it was a neighbor who

1:00:31 told it. Oh, this got me in the in the

1:00:34 Netflix documentary. But he he came to a knock at the

1:00:39 door and it was one of Jules's daughters saying, I need your

1:00:45 help. I need your help.

1:00:45 Mom's like something's happened to mom.

1:00:48 He goes up to the house and finds that Jules had basically

1:00:52 been beaten to within an inch of her life.

1:00:55 Her eye was out of its socket. That's how bad this beating was.

1:00:59 And this poor man, the neighbor says to this day, the little

1:01:03 girl was kind of looking at him saying, help me.

1:01:05 And he's like, I don't even know what to do in this situation.

1:01:09 I mean, obviously he assisted Jules in getting medical

1:01:13 attention. But, you know, I guess it was up

1:01:15 to the police to do anything further.

1:01:17 And it just never went anywhere. No, it's just horrific.

1:01:22 Yeah, it's absolutely horrific. So clearly, like Ian Bailey is a

1:01:26 violent man, we can categorically say that.

1:01:29 You know what he says about that assault though?

1:01:31 He basically said that he's like, well, she was drinking and

1:01:35 I was drinking and then she pushed me so I shoved her back.

1:01:38 No, no, you didn't shove her back.

1:01:39 You don't fucking lose an eye out of its eye socket from a

1:01:42 shove. You beat the shit out of her.

1:01:45 He also said something along the lines of, you know, we've been

1:01:47 together for a long time. Like the longer you're together,

1:01:49 we're together longer than most marriages.

1:01:51 Of course there was some, you know, like conflict between us.

1:01:55 Oh, like physical conflict is normal?

1:01:57 The longer you're married to someone, the more likely you

1:01:59 ought to beat them to death, practically.

1:02:02 Oh fuck, that's fucked up. He is so fucked up.

1:02:06 He is a piece of shit. 100% whether whatever in relation to

1:02:12 this case we're talking about is a absolute piece of shit.

1:02:17 Yep, and a fucking weirdo. Oh, he's so weird and he's so

1:02:22 full of himself. He's got such an inflated sense

1:02:25 of self. Yes, yes.

1:02:27 He just thinks he is amazing and he's such a an incredible poet,

1:02:32 an incredible writer and everyone wants to listen to him.

1:02:36 No one gave a flying fuck about him.

1:02:37 He was just. I think one way to summary up,

1:02:41 so this was in a court document, not just a this is just a random

1:02:45 sort of this is a court document by a psychiatrist rat.

1:02:48 Oh, this will be good. Report was prepared for it was

1:02:51 for a trial that occurred which we'll get to this, so it was

1:02:56 written. Personality constructed on

1:02:58 narcissism, psycho rigidity, violence, impulsiveness,

1:03:03 egocentricity with an intolerance to frustration and a

1:03:06 great need for recognition. Under the liberating effects of

1:03:10 alcohol, he had the tendency to become violent.

1:03:14 That is. Mr. Bailey is a man who likes a

1:03:17 certain amount of notoriety, that he likes perhaps to be in

1:03:21 this limelight, that he likes a bit of self publicity.

1:03:24 Yep, a bit, a bit, yeah. Absolute giant piece of shit.

1:03:30 He really. And that psychiatrist hit the

1:03:32 nail on the head, I think, with all that being said about him.

1:03:35 Yeah. Yeah.

1:03:37 So when this occurred, obviously living in the area, he was like,

1:03:43 whoa, journalism, like, you know, he was like, I'll jump on

1:03:46 this story. He wrote six articles, I believe

1:03:51 by the new year. Or was it no by Christmas?

1:03:53 Christmas. We think I was gonna say

1:03:55 Christmas, then went. No, no, it was by Christmas.

1:03:57 By Christmas. So we're talking by two days,

1:03:59 Two days. He'd written six articles on

1:04:01 this case. Now there is full of conjecture.

1:04:05 Yeah, a lot of stuff that was put in that.

1:04:06 And there's photographs of him like being like in that crime

1:04:09 scene basically like walking and taking photos through windows of

1:04:12 the house. And he is he was more than just

1:04:16 like getting himself involved in this situation.

1:04:18 It was a whole nother level of him taking liberty in this.

1:04:24 And but those stuff in those articles, that was stuff he

1:04:28 probably shouldn't have known about the case and whether that.

1:04:33 Even even the first, the first news article that he wrote.

1:04:37 Yeah, right. So his so he was a freelance

1:04:40 journalist, but he used to write a lot of articles for an English

1:04:44 newspaper and an Irish newspaper actually.

1:04:47 But one of the editors from an English newspaper contacted him

1:04:50 and said we're getting reports that there's a foreign national

1:04:55 deceased somewhere near you. Basically, can you go and find

1:04:59 out some more information, see what you get.

1:05:02 He then within, I think it was within 45.

1:05:05 Yeah, like something. Yeah, it's crazy.

1:05:07 Like at 10:45 AM sort of stuff. Not like, you know, her body's

1:05:10 fat at 10. And then like, yeah, by 11:00

1:05:12 AM, he had written this. He'd written an article, yeah,

1:05:15 that said she was French, which the police didn't even know at

1:05:18 that point. They couldn't identify her.

1:05:21 And also the name of the person that they had at the at the that

1:05:26 who owned that house was Sophie Bunyol, which was her maiden

1:05:30 name. It wasn't her married name.

1:05:32 So that's why it took them so long, because they didn't

1:05:34 actually contact Daniel Tuscan de Plontiere until that night,

1:05:39 because they didn't know she was that person that was.

1:05:41 Her yes yeah, so and so in the town she was known by her maiden

1:05:45 name by her maiden name everyone knew her is because when she

1:05:48 went there she wasn't wanting people to go.

1:05:50 You're the married to the well known director or you know and

1:05:53 you're a producer like. Anonymity.

1:05:55 No. Anonymity is why she went there.

1:05:56 So she did use her maiden name just to like, you know,

1:05:59 completely have that. But yeah.

1:06:01 He also reported no, he didn't report her name.

1:06:04 At that point, no. Yeah, but he did say she was

1:06:06 French. And how?

1:06:08 The fuck did he know that? Oh, interesting.

1:06:10 Because According to him, they never met.

1:06:13 Two. No.

1:06:13 So he said I'd seen her once, yeah, but I'd never met her.

1:06:17 And he repeated that. Oh my God, ad nauseam in every

1:06:20 interview he ever did about. It whereas hit the neighbor

1:06:23 Alfie also, who was one of the people who found her body, he

1:06:27 says. He introduced them.

1:06:31 He's adamant they had A at least had a conversation.

1:06:34 But does he have motive to say that?

1:06:36 Well, that's that's an interesting take, but I've got a

1:06:39 very firm view on what I think happened.

1:06:41 So OK the day that Bailey's released this 45 minutes later

1:06:47 released this article fuckingly knows how that happened or the

1:06:51 the other interesting thing is so he found out that there was a

1:06:54 dead body. He goes to the scene and finds

1:06:59 it straight away which. He knew exactly how to.

1:07:01 He knew. Exactly where he was going,

1:07:02 yeah. No one else knew.

1:07:04 Even the police didn't know when they were told.

1:07:06 They were like, it took them ages to find it.

1:07:08 And they're police for that area, yes.

1:07:11 Yeah. He stayed there for only a

1:07:13 matter of minutes. And there's photographic

1:07:15 evidence of this because the police were actually taking

1:07:17 crime scene for like the the local police were actually, to

1:07:21 their credit, trying to take photos of anything.

1:07:23 So there's actually photographic evidence of him pulling up.

1:07:25 Minutes later, his car's gone. Yeah.

1:07:28 So he's found out that there's a deceased body.

1:07:31 He's found it immediately. He's gone there for two to three

1:07:34 minutes and then been able to produce this entire article like

1:07:37 the 45 minutes later for release.

1:07:39 Yeah, the Garter said that he he'd ask a few questions as a

1:07:42 journalist. You know, he asked a few

1:07:43 questions, but not many. And they were odd questions to

1:07:47 ask. I don't know what they were, but

1:07:49 the words were that they were quite odd questions.

1:07:52 They weren't the questions that would have gotten him the

1:07:54 answers for writing the article. Put it that way.

1:07:57 They didn't marry up. Yeah.

1:07:59 Yeah. The police noted, so this is

1:08:03 once the homicide detectives arrived, the police noted that

1:08:09 this probably wasn't a professional hit.

1:08:11 And the fact that it was looked like a crime of opportunity by

1:08:15 then by the, you know, the fact that the murder weapon, which

1:08:20 was pretty obvious, was what it was.

1:08:23 So they're sort of thinking like, well, then how did this

1:08:27 situation unfold? Like what has happened to

1:08:30 escalate to this point? Absolutely.

1:08:34 So by January 1997 they do arrest Ian Bailey for the

1:08:40 murder, however they do not sorry February.

1:08:44 It was sorry February, not January.

1:08:46 February 10th, 1997 they arrest Ian, but they release him

1:08:52 without charge. So in Ireland, there's a law

1:08:56 that states that you can only ever hold somebody for 2/12 hour

1:09:01 periods before either charging them or releasing them.

1:09:05 So they had to be very strategic in how they were going to go

1:09:09 about this. So I guess by Feb they thought

1:09:13 they had enough to question him on.

1:09:15 Yeah. And so they've held him for that

1:09:17 12 hours and then had to release him because they didn't actually

1:09:20 have enough. Or the DPP, the department, the

1:09:22 the. Director of Public Prosecutions.

1:09:26 Decided that there wasn't enough in what he'd told them in that

1:09:29 12 hours and the evidence that they'd gathered to that point to

1:09:32 actually charge him with anything.

1:09:34 Absolutely. So it's just also worth noting

1:09:36 as well that there were certain injuries on Ian that were noted.

1:09:42 Yes. So there were cuts and scratches

1:09:46 to his hands and forearms. He says that he got those

1:09:51 because he climbed a tree to cut off a Christmas tree, like cut

1:09:55 the top of it a pine tree, cut the top off it to make a

1:09:58 Christmas tree because Christmas trees are really expensive to

1:10:01 buy. So he was being frugally

1:10:03 respond, frugal and fiscally responsible and cutting down his

1:10:08 own Christmas tree. But what is I guess suggested is

1:10:14 that the kinds of scratches on his arms could not have happened

1:10:20 just from necessarily climbing a pine tree and cutting it down.

1:10:23 Unfortunately though too, they didn't take photos of those

1:10:26 injuries. They did a drawing which is not

1:10:28 apparently according to like people in the know of this

1:10:30 stuff, that during that time that wasn't unusual that that

1:10:34 would happen. They however, yeah, however,

1:10:37 probably around, you know, probably earlier to this like in

1:10:40 earlier days, yes, that's probably how they would have

1:10:42 done it. But they were really in a time

1:10:44 of photographs, could, should and could have been taken and

1:10:47 unfortunately weren't. Well, they were photographing

1:10:49 other things in the same like it just.

1:10:50 Closed my. They wouldn't document that

1:10:52 more. And it's carefully.

1:10:53 You can see it's like the tracing of a hand.

1:10:55 Yeah. And then just like these like

1:10:57 lines on it. So it wouldn't have even been

1:11:00 accurate to what was actually on his hand.

1:11:02 In terms of this not being, you know, going now being cold case,

1:11:05 basically in terms of looking back at it, trying to solve it,

1:11:09 those injuries don't help us like to kind of like look at it.

1:11:12 One way or the other. No, it doesn't it.

1:11:14 We can't rule it out and you can't say, Oh well, they look

1:11:16 more like something that could be done this way.

1:11:18 So that evidence unfortunately has gone with time as to whether

1:11:22 or not that is an indication. The other injury he had was on

1:11:25 his forehead, which was a cup on his forehead, which he reckons

1:11:29 was because he was getting a Turkey for for Christmas.

1:11:32 He. Was killing turkeys.

1:11:33 Killing turkeys to his credit, he did sell some turkeys to the

1:11:36 local butcher that he had killed some of his own turkeys.

1:11:40 But sorry like what? Like how's the Turkey injuring

1:11:44 like a little cut on the top. Oh, is that what he said?

1:11:47 It was a heck yeah like my. Yeah, the Turkey bacon got him.

1:11:50 But I mean, to be honest, if that's what if a Turkey's done

1:11:52 that to you, I don't know. I reckon there's many.

1:11:56 You'd have more than one like, you know, and there'd be

1:11:58 scratches from their legs or something.

1:11:59 I don't know, like, yeah, I just.

1:12:02 It makes no sense. Makes sense.

1:12:04 Makes sense. Yeah, this is it.

1:12:06 But at the same time, I'm, yeah, I'm on.

1:12:08 I don't want to believe about him because I think he loved the

1:12:11 attention. Oh, he loved it.

1:12:12 He absolutely loved it. Yeah.

1:12:14 And I think people in the town were like, really quite scared

1:12:16 of him, the people who knew him, because he was so powerful.

1:12:19 He was so aggressive. He was huge.

1:12:21 He was 6 foot four, I think, like really tall and very broad.

1:12:24 Like he wasn't a skinny 6. No complete and utter loose

1:12:28 cannon. Totally.

1:12:29 He's such an inflated sense yourself.

1:12:31 Yeah. And apparently as soon as he got

1:12:33 drunk, I mean, what that psychologist has reported is

1:12:35 absolutely true. People said he'd get drunk in

1:12:37 the pub and he was just horrible, yeah, like it would

1:12:41 clear the pub out because he was just so awful.

1:12:43 I. Don't want to be anywhere.

1:12:44 Yeah, I mean, to clear a pub out in Ireland that's a, that's a,

1:12:48 that's an effort. Made your warm beer from

1:12:52 somewhere. I can't go a whole episode

1:12:55 without commenting on that. It's gotta be cold people.

1:12:58 But. Guinness, you serve cold, right?

1:13:00 No, it's warm. So people around town say that

1:13:07 when Bailey would get into these drunken stupors that he would

1:13:11 confess to the crime. So this is in the years

1:13:14 following Sophie's death. And he'd say things like, I did

1:13:17 it, I did it, I went too far. And then he'd, like, sing it or

1:13:20 he'd write or he'd, I mean, I guess make up a poem on the

1:13:25 spot, which, I mean, he was so bad at anyway.

1:13:27 But. But he would sort of draw

1:13:30 attention to himself while saying these things.

1:13:32 Like, it's really weird. Yes, It's really, really

1:13:35 strange. But they, the police or the

1:13:38 Garter arrested Bailey again a year later.

1:13:41 So now keeping in mind this is the second time they've arrested

1:13:44 him and the second time they're allowed to after this, they are

1:13:46 no longer allowed to arrest him unless they've got new and

1:13:48 compelling evidence. Yeah.

1:13:50 So they've arrested him a second time a year later.

1:13:52 Almost a year later. Yeah.

1:13:53 In the January, hoping that they can push him because they've,

1:13:58 you know, they've what they think, I guess is they've

1:14:00 gathered a lot of circumstantial evidence.

1:14:02 All circumstantial, Yeah. They've got nothing concrete,

1:14:05 unfortunately. Yeah.

1:14:06 And they were kind of hoping, given that, you know, he, they'd

1:14:09 had all of these reports of a confession and that kind of

1:14:11 thing through multiple different townspeople.

1:14:14 It turned out to be 11 people in the end who supposedly Bailey

1:14:19 confessed to in some way, whether that being a drunken

1:14:21 stupor at the pub or whatever. But yeah, that is supposedly 11

1:14:25 people did have statements saying that he'd confessed to

1:14:28 it. Yeah.

1:14:30 And so again, after this arrest, 12 hours later, he comes out and

1:14:37 his lawyer, who's also smug as fuck.

1:14:41 Oh, that man. He the look of him repulses me.

1:14:44 That that lawyer, Yeah, I can't even remember.

1:14:46 I didn't even write down his name because I'm not.

1:14:48 He's a. Piece of shitty he doesn't need

1:14:50 a name. So he was released again because

1:14:53 again, the DPP said there was just not enough to charge him

1:14:56 after that interview. Yeah, it's just devastating.

1:15:00 Jules was interviewed as well and arrested.

1:15:02 I think that was on the first time.

1:15:04 That was the first time Bailey was arrested.

1:15:07 They arrested Jules about a few hours later.

1:15:09 Yeah, in connection with the murder because I think they

1:15:14 thought she might have known something.

1:15:16 She at the time was adamant he hadn't done anything.

1:15:20 A couple of years was later she is quoted as saying I actually

1:15:24 don't know if he did it. So in her first testimony,

1:15:27 sorry, in her first statement, what Jules says is that night

1:15:32 they'd been out, they'd been at a pub and then no, sorry, they'd

1:15:36 been at a house party and then they went to a pub.

1:15:39 And so Ian was inebriated, but so was she, and I think they

1:15:43 were driving. Anyway, yeah, yeah.

1:15:46 And so anyway, at the end of the night, they go home, they have a

1:15:50 nightcap, have a whiskey each, and they go to bed.

1:15:54 Initially, Jules said Yep, he was with me all night.

1:15:57 Adamantly he was. He didn't lose 100% in the bed

1:15:59 or not. Yep.

1:16:00 She later changed her statement to say that he actually didn't

1:16:04 settle and was sort of tossing and turning, and about an hour

1:16:09 after they went to bed, he got up.

1:16:14 Let that sink. In the other one that she said

1:16:16 too later on was that she awoke to him bringing her a coffee so

1:16:22 he was up well before her and that.

1:16:26 And that was at about 10:00 AM. Yeah, that he she brought, he

1:16:28 brought her a coffee. Yeah.

1:16:30 So, yeah. That he was already awake well

1:16:32 before her, that was. And also that because she said

1:16:36 he was in bed all night, but then she said that Oh no, he'd

1:16:39 written an article and at one stage it was he'd written that

1:16:42 article in the cottage I'm and been in, in the house where she

1:16:46 could. She knew where he was, that he

1:16:47 hadn't left the house. Yes, Another time, she state her

1:16:50 statement was that no, no, he had written that at the studio

1:16:54 which was about memory, like 300 metres down the road.

1:16:57 It was so a distance so. I think it was like a mile,

1:17:01 however long that is. Well, a mile would be about

1:17:03 that. I don't know.

1:17:04 I don't know. I don't know.

1:17:05 Got that stuff. How long is a mile?

1:17:08 How far is mile? Yeah, 250 metres ish.

1:17:12 Is that right? I'm 1.6 metres is, 1.6 K is.

1:17:16 A mile is 1.6 kilometers. Yeah, yeah.

1:17:19 So that doesn't sound. Right.

1:17:20 No, I know it wasn't that. I think it was about 300.

1:17:22 Meters. Yeah, that. 300 meters sounds

1:17:24 right. I have maps and I have.

1:17:26 I'll put them all up and you can see how far away it was.

1:17:28 Far enough away that if he was going down the studio, like he

1:17:30 could have been anywhere, you wouldn't have necessarily been

1:17:32 at the studio. If you get out of the house to

1:17:33 the point where you were down there could have been anywhere.

1:17:36 Yeah, and there was also, it's worth mentioning, it was like 2

1:17:40 to 3 kilometers from their their cottage to Sophie's, a walkable

1:17:46 distance really. I mean, oh pretty, you know,

1:17:49 rocky hilly area. But not, not, not.

1:17:52 It's doable. Now, Mar Marie saw this man, who

1:17:58 she later thought was Ian Bailey, at the Killfutter

1:18:01 Bridge. And that was that was at like

1:18:02 3:30 in the morning. Yes, but she also withdrew her

1:18:07 statement. Yeah, now this is this gets me.

1:18:10 Yeah. This is why I was asking you

1:18:11 about her before. Yeah.

1:18:13 There's interviews of her when she's made her first statement

1:18:18 and she is adamant and I think credible.

1:18:22 You can tell she's a reluctant witness.

1:18:25 Yes, she doesn't want. To say, but her reasoning for

1:18:28 that was that she was out with an ex-boyfriend.

1:18:31 Yeah, her first, her first ever boyfriend.

1:18:33 Like a young love, she's. Married and everything and but

1:18:35 she was out with someone. She's having an affair, yeah.

1:18:38 Yeah. So that's why she wanted to stay

1:18:39 anonymous at the time. So that and to me that marries

1:18:41 up, you know, you're not wanting to of course, put that out

1:18:43 there. And so you've kept anonymous and

1:18:44 you don't really want to be part of this like kind of thing.

1:18:47 But you do have information that you know, is pertinent to this

1:18:50 potentially. So you've got to come forward.

1:18:52 She also has. So after she's made this

1:18:55 statement, and obviously we now know who she is, she's made

1:18:58 public statements. She's been on the news saying,

1:19:01 telling her story. She was on like a sort of in a

1:19:03 Current Affair type program being interviewed and telling

1:19:08 the interviewer exactly what she'd seen.

1:19:11 She then has made, I can't remember how many times, but it

1:19:15 it was multiple times she made complaints to the Garter about

1:19:21 Ian Bailey tormenting her. He would show up at her shop.

1:19:25 She had a shop in Skull and he would show up and threaten her.

1:19:29 He would threaten her family. He would stalk her.

1:19:34 Yeah. So basically he'd follow her and

1:19:36 just be really menacing and he would basically said, well, you

1:19:40 need to withdraw your statement. You don't know what you saw.

1:19:43 And there are multiple witnesses to this.

1:19:45 I mean, the Garter have, have all of the statements following

1:19:48 that. And then, you know what, less

1:19:51 than 12 months later, she withdraws her statement and, and

1:19:54 then she's interviewed again. And I, I just think I see the

1:19:59 fear in her face. Like I in that first interview,

1:20:02 once she'd made the her original statement, I found her so

1:20:06 credible and so I could tell in her face she didn't want to be

1:20:09 that person. But she had to be because there

1:20:12 was a woman's life, you know, and the consequences of that

1:20:16 hanging in the balance. But then when I see her

1:20:18 interviewed where she's like, Nope, I made false statements.

1:20:21 She's so broken, yeah. And so such a diminished version

1:20:26 of what she was beforehand. And I'm like this fucking

1:20:29 asshole, yeah, has tormented her so badly, yeah, that she feels

1:20:34 like she's. Got no other option but to back

1:20:36 out of this and be like that, which annoys me because you just

1:20:40 all you can do is say what you saw that doesn't, you know,

1:20:43 like, that's not saying that she's saying he murdered her.

1:20:45 Yeah, it's just saying I saw this person, you don't sort that

1:20:48 out, but that's. What, you mean the vicinity of

1:20:49 her house at the time? You know, but but that's what.

1:20:52 I'm The thing is, him being on that bridge doesn't mean that he

1:20:56 murdered her either. It just means there was a person

1:20:58 in the area that should have been, should be questioned and

1:21:00 asked what they saw. Yeah, it's just it's it's just a

1:21:02 trail of that. And so she's done nothing wrong.

1:21:05 Oh, no. But but obviously he, yeah,

1:21:08 thinks that that information is dangerous to him.

1:21:11 That or this is the thing with him.

1:21:13 I just feel like he just loves the attention and the bullshit

1:21:16 that goes with it all too. Are you saying you don't think

1:21:19 he did? It I don't know we'll.

1:21:22 Get to that in a. 2nd. Where are we up to two?

1:21:26 1002, there was actually a review put in place, but under

1:21:30 the investigation because of the murder investigation, because

1:21:33 there was some criticism around how the guard went about this.

1:21:38 Yeah, there was, you know, Ian Bailey had issue with how they

1:21:41 had gone about it, but so did other people within the force

1:21:45 too, because things weren't done as they probably should have

1:21:47 been, unfortunately. And whether that literally just

1:21:49 come down to the fact of inexperience, but there was

1:21:53 criticism that potentially they were focusing on Ian Bailey and

1:21:56 maybe not looking elsewhere when they should have been

1:21:59 potentially. So a lot of questions means

1:22:01 that. So a review took place in

1:22:02 January 2002 of that in December of 2003 and then all the way

1:22:08 through to January 2004. Ian Bailey took civil action

1:22:12 against 7 Newspapers for their coverage of his of the murder

1:22:17 investigation. So this man went to town with

1:22:21 all of his legal action. So he lost five of those

1:22:25 actions, but two of them he did win.

1:22:28 He won a total of €4000 from each of them, one being the

1:22:33 Irish son and the other being the Irish Daily Mirror who had

1:22:37 claimed that he had assaulted his former partner.

1:22:40 Fact. But anyway, but he won.

1:22:43 He won that, but he the other five, he.

1:22:45 Likes I think the reason he won that is because it had no

1:22:48 bearing on the current case. I think it was more that they

1:22:51 used that as a motive or as a reason.

1:22:54 But I mean. But he also hadn't been

1:22:55 convicted of those things. So driving it.

1:22:57 So as much as it's, it's defamation because we don't

1:23:00 we're only going by someone's story, not going by court, you

1:23:03 know, actual fact in that in that scenario.

1:23:05 So unfortunately, yeah, he he did lose.

1:23:07 He did win those two cases, but the other five were dropped

1:23:10 because they did, they did report facts that people that we

1:23:13 knew, but that was not where he left all his court actions.

1:23:16 So he was. But The thing is, this actually

1:23:20 became like a a mini murder trial because they had all of

1:23:24 the same witnesses like it. It actually became detrimental

1:23:29 to him because there were witnesses that contradicted

1:23:32 almost everything that he was saying.

1:23:35 Yeah. And so in the court of public

1:23:38 opinion, which I know that's not what the purpose of this was.

1:23:41 The purpose for him was I think he thought he'd be able to win

1:23:45 all of these actions and be like, oh, sweet, see, you are

1:23:48 all idiots. You don't know what you're

1:23:50 talking about. And it would clear his name.

1:23:52 The. Actually, in fact, the opposite

1:23:55 happened. Yeah.

1:23:56 And he just showed the world even more of who he was.

1:23:58 Oh. Absolutely.

1:23:59 I mean, yeah, as I say, no matter whether he did this or

1:24:02 not, he's a Dick. Oh.

1:24:04 It's such a fucking Dick. Oh, man.

1:24:06 So I don't know if we want to go back a little bit here.

1:24:08 We're kind of at a point where we're not really getting

1:24:11 anywhere in this investigation. You know, like there's there's a

1:24:13 real stalemate in terms of where we're at.

1:24:15 So I don't want to go back and just let go.

1:24:17 OK, So the the guarder we're looking at Ian Bailey fairly

1:24:21 like solely they did have other suspects on their list.

1:24:24 So do we want to go over those? Yeah.

1:24:26 Do you want to just? Talk, go back over those.

1:24:27 Yeah. All right, so first and

1:24:29 foremost, there was an ex partner of Sophie's.

1:24:33 She did have, I guess, a bit of an affair, but it wasn't affair.

1:24:36 Yeah. So that but she did separate

1:24:38 from her husband at the time. So she met this man and they did

1:24:41 separate for about 12 months I think and she started had this

1:24:44 relationship. I think there was a little bit

1:24:46 of crossover. Yeah, I.

1:24:47 Believe there was some crossover, but to be.

1:24:49 Fair. Daniel had affairs too, yeah.

1:24:51 Yeah, So, you know, but they did end up getting back together,

1:24:53 Daniel. But so when she did was

1:24:55 murdered, they were a married couple, et cetera.

1:24:56 But there was a break in the marriage in terms of a

1:24:59 separation. So this man's name was Bruno Cub

1:25:02 Cubani, another French man. He was an artist.

1:25:06 He was very infatuated with Sophie but he was an interesting

1:25:12 bloke. Very.

1:25:13 Interesting bloke. She had taken him to the house

1:25:17 in, in Skull and they'd spent, you know, he'd been there once,

1:25:22 I think. So he, he, he knew the house and

1:25:26 he'd, you know, spent a little bit of time there.

1:25:29 Sophie, I think wasn't that into him honestly, like physically, I

1:25:33 do not understand either the attractions.

1:25:36 Well, yeah, but especially this carbonated guy because he he

1:25:39 looked. I don't know.

1:25:41 Very old, yeah, yes. But you know what?

1:25:44 And, and one of the, I think it was one of the, I'm going to be

1:25:46 in the Netflix documentary, they described him as a man of a

1:25:50 similar age of hers. And I'm looking at the two of

1:25:52 them going, no, there's no way he's a similar age to her.

1:25:56 No, there was a definite massive age gap, like a decent age gap.

1:26:00 I would say 20. Years.

1:26:01 That's what I would have thought as well.

1:26:02 So I found that really interesting, the way that that

1:26:04 was portrayed because I don't know, I saw him and just went.

1:26:08 Oh no. Doesn't marry up.

1:26:10 They don't. To me they don't even look like

1:26:11 they would be a couple. Same.

1:26:13 I thought the same thing. So it was a three-year

1:26:15 relationship she had with him and that she ended it in 1990.

1:26:18 3-3 years. So then there was definitely

1:26:20 overlapping her marriage. Yes, there was, but I think for

1:26:22 at least 12 months, a minimum year, her and Daniel were

1:26:26 separated, OK, because of what was going on here.

1:26:28 And she was like, she did the right thing, I guess, in that,

1:26:30 you know, like, OK, clearly, like, I'm doing this.

1:26:33 I really need to probably separate my marriage, like, kind

1:26:35 of thing. But she ended it.

1:26:37 It didn't end well. He was not he.

1:26:39 Bruno was not OK with the end of their relationship.

1:26:41 He stalked her. He.

1:26:44 Yeah. So he was he.

1:26:44 Cut up paintings that he'd painted when he was with her and

1:26:47 posted them to her. Yeah, like in little pieces.

1:26:50 Yeah, a bit. Odd.

1:26:52 Very strange. So in January 97, like he

1:26:57 appeared on the Garter's radar in terms of someone that like

1:26:59 people in the, in the, the area was saying there was a man that

1:27:03 she did bring here and, you know, and people knew that it

1:27:06 wasn't a great relationship. So they went and interviewed

1:27:09 him. They actually went over to

1:27:10 France and interviewed him and he was found to have a very

1:27:14 concrete alibi. So he was ruled out.

1:27:17 However, could they have done more to look into that in terms

1:27:20 of extenuating things of like did he get someone else to do

1:27:22 this that wasn't investigated, that was found in the reviews

1:27:26 that there was potentially more there that could have been

1:27:28 looked at? So they investigated that aspect

1:27:30 from Daniel's perspective, yes, because they know 100% Daniel

1:27:34 wasn't in Ireland. Again, he had a really solid

1:27:37 alibi. He was in the South of France.

1:27:38 Their housekeepers, like so many a lot of people.

1:27:41 Yeah, yeah. But they definitely looked into

1:27:45 the fact that maybe he'd organized a hit on her.

1:27:48 Although from what everyone was saying at that time, their

1:27:51 relationship was actually really well and truly on track.

1:27:54 Yeah, obviously Sophie had organized this plant to be

1:27:56 planted in their, you know, in their holiday home for

1:27:59 Christmas. So things seem to be very

1:28:01 amicable within their relationship at the time.

1:28:04 Yeah. And that sort of led nowhere

1:28:06 either. Really.

1:28:06 No, no, there wasn't anything in there.

1:28:09 Yeah, there was another gun. I can't think of his name off

1:28:12 the top of my head now, but and he was he was investigated but

1:28:14 ruled out pretty quickly too. But the other one that I kind of

1:28:18 put on my radar more, and so I'll focus on that one is Elfie

1:28:22 Lyons, the next door neighbor. So Elfie and Sophie had had a

1:28:27 number of disagreements, yes, since that she had owned the

1:28:30 property, one being specifically, which was there

1:28:34 was a like a building just not far from Sophie's house, which

1:28:40 was called like the storeroom. And Sophie believed that that

1:28:43 was part of her property. Turns out wasn't it was it was

1:28:46 Alfie's property. So there was quite a a

1:28:50 disagreement over that. Previously there was a number of

1:28:54 other things that they had had run insurance over as well.

1:28:57 So there's that. But so the morning of the

1:29:01 murder, Shirley woke up at about 8:20 and as we said, sunrise was

1:29:08 840. She had not been out of the

1:29:11 house prior to this, that when she found Sophie's body, that

1:29:14 was the first time that she'd exited the house.

1:29:18 Elfie was up before her and she had briefly, he actually had

1:29:23 been up earlier in the morning but had come back to bed.

1:29:27 Like so after being up and doing things, he came back to bed.

1:29:32 So she believed he was maybe up at least at for at least an hour

1:29:36 within the house that she could hear him prior to 820.

1:29:42 He, yeah, as I said, came back to bed at about 8:20-ish.

1:29:45 So I think bringing a cup of tea for her, who was rising.

1:29:49 And she believed he was also up a few times throughout the night

1:29:52 as well. That wasn't uncommon though.

1:29:54 No, he goes to the toilet, etcetera like that, but he was

1:29:56 up and down throughout the night.

1:29:57 Yeah, Elfie had a bandaged hand during interviews at the time.

1:30:06 I never really got an any idea of why that what and that there

1:30:09 was there was any if there if he was ever even asked as to what

1:30:11 that injury was. There was no.

1:30:13 Explanation. No explanation for that

1:30:15 whatsoever. So Alfie, at the time of

1:30:23 discovering the body, as we said, went back up to the house

1:30:27 and checked Sophie's property. We don't know, as we said, about

1:30:32 whether or not this murder occurred at the gate, you know,

1:30:35 solely, or whether there was anything that happened at the

1:30:38 house 1st and then brought it to the gate or what happened

1:30:41 because as we say, there was blood on that door or.

1:30:43 Even how Sophie's blood got. There, how did Sophie's blood

1:30:46 get blood get there? Now, the other thing is worth

1:30:48 mentioning is that the way you would approach Sophie's house

1:30:52 and go from Sophie's house to Alfie's house is that you would

1:30:56 go around past this door that you wouldn't see from entering

1:31:00 the property. So someone who knows the

1:31:03 property would have been at that door.

1:31:05 Someone who didn't know the property would not have even

1:31:07 gone anywhere near that door. So there's a possibility that

1:31:12 this has a, this has occurred down the gate, this interaction,

1:31:15 whatever's happened. And let's say if it is Elfie

1:31:17 that it has happened with, he's then maybe gone back to the

1:31:20 house to check something on his way past as he's gone back home,

1:31:24 which is then cross they had some blood on him from which the

1:31:27 person would have definitely had blood splatter on them from that

1:31:30 situation. And then that's how that smear

1:31:33 smidge of blood has been on that is on the door.

1:31:37 So that's a possibility that he would could have come past and

1:31:39 done that as like, you know, like, I don't know, gone past

1:31:41 and like checked inside and then like and closed the door and

1:31:43 gone back around to his house. So that kind of that would

1:31:46 absolutely make sense that that would be a passing by of that

1:31:49 door to go back home after that incident.

1:31:53 So he hasn't really been looked at very closely to be honest,

1:31:57 and to me doesn't have a clear alibi.

1:32:01 No, he. Was interviewed, but more so as

1:32:03 a witness, not as a suspect. Absolutely.

1:32:05 Now the other part of this is that Alfie was a cannabis grower

1:32:11 in the area, well known cannabis grower in the area and supplied

1:32:15 a number of people, including some police officers.

1:32:19 So is that why he wasn't heavily interviewed?

1:32:23 I don't know. Could they have found another

1:32:25 cannabis grower if he was put in jail?

1:32:28 Because I looked. Yeah, that's right.

1:32:30 I think he wasn't the only one. The only one.

1:32:32 I'm not saying that, but yeah, so I don't know.

1:32:35 It put his to me. There's some question marks over

1:32:37 him that haven't been looked at close enough.

1:32:40 I'd agree with that. And I think when I think about

1:32:44 the blood on the outside of Sophie's house, that certainly

1:32:50 picks my interest and I think should have been investigated

1:32:53 more thoroughly and wasn't. The other thing that gets me

1:32:56 though, is that in terms of exhibits taken from the crime

1:33:00 scene, so you mentioned the gate, right?

1:33:02 Yeah, there was so much blood on that gate and likely blood from

1:33:06 the perpetrator because the perpetrator would have had cuts

1:33:10 on their hands from this barbed wire and Bramble.

1:33:13 Yes, that gate which was removed and taken for forensics was

1:33:18 lost. I'm sorry, what?

1:33:24 Never been found again, Nobody knows where this where this gate

1:33:26 is. I don't know.

1:33:27 And. It's not a little gate.

1:33:28 It's a huge, it's a big farm gate, a six foot long gate, yes,

1:33:31 like. Bigger than that potentially

1:33:33 like it's a 14 foot gate. Yes, it's massive.

1:33:36 And so I just think so much evidence has been lost to either

1:33:41 rule out or, you know, put in the frame certain people.

1:33:46 And Elfie is one of those people.

1:33:47 Yeah. So how did that get lost?

1:33:49 Where did it go? Who the fuck knows?

1:33:50 But I think there's so much evidence that could have been

1:33:53 collected and wasn't or has been since lost.

1:33:56 We're just never going to find those answers.

1:33:58 No. And like I was saying before,

1:34:00 like when we sort of hinted at the fact of like, that, Ian

1:34:02 Bailey says he never met Sophie, was never, you know, introduced

1:34:05 to her, whereas Elfie swears he was the one who introduced them.

1:34:09 Yes, but it's Alfie. But then.

1:34:10 There's yeah. And then I kind of go, well, was

1:34:12 was he happy for it to be pointed at Ian?

1:34:14 So he's going to be. Oh yeah, yeah, I introduced them

1:34:16 like. But then other people said

1:34:17 they'd seen Sophie and Ian conversing, so don't.

1:34:21 I can't rule. That any of those things out

1:34:23 like it's, it's very interesting.

1:34:26 I I think that there is more. I think unfortunately the police

1:34:29 didn't do their job in this situation that there is

1:34:33 characters that weren't looked at close enough.

1:34:36 And the. Including Ian Bailey, to be

1:34:37 honest. Like, I mean, there's the

1:34:38 evidence for Ian Bailey, you know, doesn't rack up enough

1:34:41 because it wasn't investigated as it shouldn't have been.

1:34:44 Yeah. The other thing we have to

1:34:45 state, though, too, is that there was skin and things found

1:34:49 under Sophie's nails, and that was collected and DNA tested.

1:34:54 Now that DNA does not match Ian Bailey.

1:34:56 No. Was that tested against Alfie

1:34:59 Lyons? No, I don't believe.

1:35:00 So no, it wasn't. So there's so many questions

1:35:06 over to me. Like as much as I'm like Ian

1:35:09 Bailey, fucking lunatic, and is he capable of doing this, I have

1:35:14 to say yes. Like he's a violent man.

1:35:16 There's very definite personality traits there that

1:35:19 would put him as a character who could do this.

1:35:21 He absolutely revelled in what went on in all of that.

1:35:26 Is there a motive for him to have done this?

1:35:28 Not that I can find. No, but he'd he'd drink and be

1:35:32 an absolute psycho. Absolutely.

1:35:34 Shit. So that's, that's what makes me

1:35:36 believe it was him because he has a history of this.

1:35:39 Yeah. He was drinking heavily that

1:35:41 night. This was a crime of opportunity.

1:35:43 I don't think the person sought out Sophie in particular to kill

1:35:47 her. Like no.

1:35:48 But I think even if it was, say, Elfie, to me, it's like they've

1:35:50 yeah, he's got better down at the gate and she's close.

1:35:52 Maybe she's closing the gate and said to him, you've left the

1:35:54 gate open, you know, and that that sparked a, an argument.

1:35:58 And so not, not not to be that it was, you know, oh, he's gone

1:36:01 down there to kill her. He's gone down there to do

1:36:04 whatever or something. And he's stuffed up.

1:36:05 And they've had an argument. And the two had a history of

1:36:07 having arguments. And it's turned into what it

1:36:11 did. I still think it's Am Bailey.

1:36:13 I don't. I'm not saying that's the thing

1:36:14 with all this. I'm not saying that I think it

1:36:16 was LP Lyons. I'm just putting out there

1:36:17 saying that it's really unfortunate in this situation

1:36:20 because we can't know who it was at this point.

1:36:24 Yeah, but anyway, let's get back.

1:36:25 To go to the French. Case.

1:36:27 So now, now we get to the French side of the case.

1:36:31 So the French decided, or according to their law, if a

1:36:37 French citizen is murdered outside of France

1:36:40 geographically, they can still run a murder trial within their

1:36:46 country. Yep, which is what they decided

1:36:48 to do in. Sophie's case so even like way

1:36:51 prior to like having the trial they did in 2007, they actually

1:36:57 ordered that the Sophie's body be exhumed and another post

1:37:02 mortem done following that from that what they found there, they

1:37:06 then also did a further investigation and a review of

1:37:09 the investigation from the French side.

1:37:11 Not just so previously it was the Irish sizing, but this is

1:37:15 purely the French doing their own investigation of it all.

1:37:20 So they found that all sorts of things that were not done

1:37:24 correctly within that. And so that's why they wanted to

1:37:27 then keep this keep this moving and trying to find answers for

1:37:30 the family. And this is again where her

1:37:32 brother really, really was the the front runner of like taking

1:37:35 this on and and pushing for that.

1:37:37 He started this thing called the Association for the truth on the

1:37:41 Murder of Sophie Toscan de Pontier NI Bunyol.

1:37:46 He credits the, like, creating this organization as the

1:37:52 catalyst for the French government to do what they ended

1:37:56 up doing. Because I think the family felt

1:37:59 like the Irish Garter and courts had just, you know, they were

1:38:05 like, well, we've done everything we can.

1:38:08 But they weren't satisfied. They weren't satisfied with

1:38:11 that. They were like, well, and I

1:38:13 mean, they had Ian Bailey in their sights.

1:38:15 They, they to this day believe Ian Bailey was the person who

1:38:18 did it. And so in forming this

1:38:22 association, they then pushed the government to pursue legal

1:38:28 action against Ian Bailey. Yeah.

1:38:31 So in February 19, 2010, the French issued a warrant for Anne

1:38:37 Bailey's arrest based on their investigations.

1:38:40 This was actually granted the the sorry the that he would be

1:38:45 extradited on this arrest warrant to to France by the

1:38:51 Irish High Court. However, Anne Bailey, of course,

1:38:55 as he does, took it to the High Court of Ireland and sorry, he

1:39:00 took it to the Supreme Court into it.

1:39:02 He appealed it to the Supreme Court and unfortunately it was

1:39:07 he was he won that appeal. They so they had the grounds to

1:39:11 say no, we're not going to extradite him.

1:39:14 And so therefore he wouldn't be handed over to the French for

1:39:17 for an arrest. It wasn't until 2019 they

1:39:25 actually decided in France to, as you're saying, move ahead

1:39:29 with a trial in absenteeism of Ian Bailey, the person they were

1:39:34 going to prosecute or, you know, that's it at the point.

1:39:36 So which is really unusual. I mean very.

1:39:38 Well, actually, apparently not. There was precedent for this.

1:39:41 Yeah. But like it's not like it's

1:39:42 overly common though. Like it's not something.

1:39:44 It's not, it's certainly not the first time that they prosecuted

1:39:48 an international suspect in absentia.

1:39:52 Yeah. So he was actually sentenced as

1:39:55 well to 25 years in prison in a French federal prison.

1:40:03 Yeah, which again, the Supreme Court upheld there.

1:40:08 No extradition decision. And so Bailey just basically got

1:40:12 to live out the rest of his life in Ireland.

1:40:15 Yeah. And he actually died on the 21st

1:40:19 of January in 2024, aged 66. From a heart.

1:40:22 Yeah, yeah, just yeah. He had a heart attack and died.

1:40:27 Yeah. Nothing overly interesting.

1:40:29 No, but Sophie's family were kind of disappointed at the fact

1:40:35 that he's now passed because to them, I think they were hopeful

1:40:39 that at some point they would see him in prison.

1:40:41 Yeah, or at least a conviction from an Irish court, to be

1:40:46 honest. Like that would even even still

1:40:47 with him being dead, to be honest, would be, you know,

1:40:50 satisfying. If that's what I mean, If it's

1:40:53 if that's what happened, you want him held accountable.

1:40:56 Absolutely you would want him held accountable.

1:40:58 But I just don't know if we're ever going to get those answers.

1:41:01 So in 2022 they announced a review of the so cold case, new

1:41:06 cold case investigation into it. And unfortunately, like there's

1:41:10 just not a lot that's come out of that.

1:41:11 They've done DNA testing, further DNA test obviously

1:41:14 between, you know, since 1997, you know, to now like DNA

1:41:19 testing has certainly advanced, absolutely, but there's just

1:41:23 been nothing found yet that links anything.

1:41:26 And so they can definitely find more, more DNA.

1:41:29 But as we said, like it's it wasn't nothing linking Bailey to

1:41:36 that degree like a like DNA, et cetera has been found at the

1:41:40 scene. Yeah.

1:41:41 So it does leave a big question mark over.

1:41:45 Look, it does, I think, I personally think that on the

1:41:48 balance of probability that AM Bailey was responsible.

1:41:53 Obviously, I I don't have any facts to prove that.

1:41:55 It's just a gut feeling, and that's just.

1:41:57 What I think has. Actually happened.

1:41:59 I mean, I think, you know, if you sort of look at who he was a

1:42:01 person, you can certainly go, you know, like he fits the

1:42:04 profile of someone who could do that.

1:42:06 However, being a Dick doesn't actually make you a murderer.

1:42:10 No, I know. And then the same in the same

1:42:12 time we've talked about a lot that, you know, the fact is like

1:42:15 you can be the nicest person you've ever met and they can

1:42:18 turn out to be the murderer. And the person who you know rubs

1:42:21 you up the wrong way and does some really oddball things and

1:42:24 is really an A hole can turn it to not be the murderer.

1:42:27 Yeah, look, I I understand that, but I don't know.

1:42:31 I've just I got feeling maybe I'm not.

1:42:34 Sure. I guess on this one I come and

1:42:35 something, I think it was actually on crime analysts that

1:42:37 I heard they say this that I kind of went, that's where I'm

1:42:40 getting this vibe again from, from this is the staircase vibe.

1:42:43 Yes, it's Michael Peterson. Because to me this whole case is

1:42:47 like, there seems to be a clear person who's done this, but we

1:42:51 have no evidence for that person.

1:42:53 And could it be a fucking owl? Well, Oh my God, sorry, this is

1:42:57 Oh my God, Oh my God. So this is actually the bit that

1:43:02 I wanted to bring up that also relates back to the staircase.

1:43:05 This is great. What?

1:43:06 What animal is picking up a block?

1:43:08 Cinder block? So oh.

1:43:08 No, wait for it, wait for it. This is absolute gold.

1:43:13 Oh my God, bring it. So there is a man who believes

1:43:20 that Sophie died from a horse attack and that the block she

1:43:26 actually fell. So this is his theory.

1:43:29 OK, She's woken up in the morning.

1:43:32 Yep, she sees a horse out a window.

1:43:35 Yep. And she goes out to the horse to

1:43:37 feed it or to say hi to it. And that's why she's got her

1:43:39 boots sliced up, because she had time to do.

1:43:41 That Yep. Don't know why she didn't have a

1:43:44 dressing gown on, but anyway, imagine details she's throwing

1:43:46 that over. Her shoulders that could just

1:43:47 literally. I guess fall off You OK?

1:43:49 In any kind of attack, I did think that myself.

1:43:51 Like, how does that come off in that kind of thing with her

1:43:53 being a human? Not as the horse, But yeah, if

1:43:55 it's just draped over you, it could just fall off you in the

1:43:57 middle of a frenzy, I guess. Maybe.

1:44:00 And this horse is not like the cut of Sophie's jib and has

1:44:05 chased her. And apparently horses can be

1:44:07 quite aggressive. No.

1:44:09 Yeah. And has attacked her and she's

1:44:10 fallen on the concrete block. But it doesn't explain so many

1:44:14 other things like the blood on the House, the blood on the

1:44:17 gates even, because. See.

1:44:18 Did Alfie put that there when he's gone to the body and then

1:44:22 gone to the back door to go? Hey, Sophie.

1:44:25 Home. But wouldn't we know that?

1:44:27 Wouldn't Alfie have like said, oh, I must have had her blood on

1:44:30 me and I've touched that? But this is the thing, he wasn't

1:44:33 investigated or asked those questions.

1:44:34 I guess. But wait a minute.

1:44:36 Can I just tell you why this guy thinks that this theory is

1:44:39 valid? OK, There was a Swedish case

1:44:42 where a woman was killed down by a lake, right?

1:44:48 She and her husband had had a lot of issues, like, as in

1:44:52 issues within their marriage. There was a lot of abuse,

1:44:54 physical and emotional abuse. And so when they when this

1:44:58 woman's body was found, yeah, the police automatically went,

1:45:01 well, the husband who's got a history of abuse has done it.

1:45:05 Yeah. What they actually, when the

1:45:07 Swedish police actually then. So the husband was arrested.

1:45:10 Yeah. In investigating this woman's

1:45:12 death, what they actually found was all over her.

1:45:17 There was elk fir and elk saliva.

1:45:21 Now I know. I know.

1:45:28 What actually happens is around this lake, there are a lot of

1:45:33 apple trees, right? The apples fall to the ground,

1:45:36 and the elk eat the apples. But the apples are fermented a

1:45:40 little bit. And so the elk get drunk.

1:45:42 Drunk from eating the fermented apples.

1:45:46 Yeah. And when they're drunk, they're

1:45:48 nothing. They're really aggressive.

1:45:51 Checks out. So what they've actually were

1:45:54 able to prove, yeah, in this instance, was this Swedish woman

1:45:57 was not murdered by her abusive husband, was actually murdered

1:46:00 by a drunk elk. That's not funny, but that's

1:46:05 funny. It's not funny, it's not funny,

1:46:07 but it's so funny and it's so reminiscent of the bloody owl

1:46:10 theory in the staircase. And the horse theory, now for

1:46:13 Sophie. Yeah.

1:46:15 And so this, this guy's like, well, I'm an expert in this

1:46:17 Swedish elk case. So I think it was a a

1:46:20 potentially a drunk horse. Nae nae rather than hoot hoot.

1:46:27 I mean, it's so far fetched and look, I think it's basically

1:46:30 been disproven because there's there were no horse tracks or

1:46:33 anything around. Yeah, right.

1:46:34 I mean, there were horses in the area, yeah, but none that were

1:46:38 actually on Sophie's or Alfie's property.

1:46:40 Like because they had a gate that could have meant that that

1:46:43 livestock was contained within either of the properties.

1:46:45 Because if the gate had been left open, then livestock could

1:46:48 have entered the property. And that's where she was very

1:46:50 vigilant at closing it. Yeah, but it was open.

1:46:53 But it was open, but you'd think you'd see hoof, hoof Marks and

1:46:57 yeah, you know, little feet or whatever, and there was none of

1:47:01 that found. Necessarily, Yeah, OK.

1:47:03 So I mean, look, stranger things have happened.

1:47:07 And when we when we were doing the staircase episode, we're

1:47:10 like, well, the yeah theory kind of fits a little.

1:47:12 I kind of I kind of go down that with that one.

1:47:14 I really. I tried to deep dive this but

1:47:17 there's not a lot of other information out there 'cause

1:47:19 it's just one bloke. Interesting.

1:47:22 But that's the thing where that's what I guess my point is

1:47:25 that I'd rather be that open as an investigator, that kind of

1:47:28 thing and going well, could this be an animal attack?

1:47:31 Could this be, you know, you know, the neighbor could this be

1:47:34 Ian Bailey, but could this be 20 other people in the in the local

1:47:37 community? And that's the thing where I

1:47:39 don't think anyone should ever be offended at being like

1:47:41 questioned by investigators in these situations that you I'd

1:47:45 rather rule out everything. Then I've just gone, oh, it's

1:47:49 got to be Ian Bailey. I'm going to gun gun it for him.

1:47:51 I agree. I fully agree with what you're

1:47:53 saying. So the Garter did have Ian

1:47:56 Bailey in their sights right from the get go, and I think it

1:47:58 was to the exclusion of all others.

1:47:59 I mean, as you say, look at Elfie for one.

1:48:01 Yeah. Also, there were other people

1:48:04 within Skull, other residents who had criminal histories and

1:48:09 they weren't necessarily looked into either.

1:48:11 I don't know what. Well, there's no evidence of

1:48:13 them being questioned or being looked into.

1:48:16 So I'm like, well, yeah, the Garter have dropped the ball,

1:48:19 dropped the. Ball unfreely and that which is

1:48:21 awful for her son and her and her family.

1:48:22 I just that's not us that's not fair.

1:48:25 I think unfortunately a disservice was done.

1:48:27 We can only hope that with cold case and the you know, the

1:48:31 ability of you know of the DNA testing getting better and

1:48:35 others. Maybe they need to be looking

1:48:37 for worse DNA. Maybe.

1:48:38 They're looking for the right. Check that out.

1:48:41 What kind of profiles are they getting off this?

1:48:42 Yes. Yeah.

1:48:43 Off her body. This is the thing I mean to me,

1:48:45 open it up to any possibility. Don't just be focusing on Ian

1:48:48 Bailey. Not saying that doesn't mean he

1:48:50 didn't do it. It just means be open to other

1:48:53 possibilities so that we can narrow, narrow down.

1:48:56 Well, if it was none of these other things and we're all left

1:48:58 with is, is the circumstantial evidence that points to Bailey,

1:49:01 then that becomes stronger. Yeah, Like, yeah, agreed.

1:49:06 That's my opinion. I I I agree.

1:49:09 With you. Oh wow.

1:49:11 I think that's kind of it. I mean, again, we say this every

1:49:14 time, but if this is a case that particularly interests you,

1:49:17 there is a lot of extra information out there.

1:49:19 There's lots of information of people saying they saw different

1:49:22 things about Ian Bailey, none of which has been substantiated.

1:49:25 Things like people were like, Oh yeah, I saw his coat being

1:49:28 soaked in the laundry through and all this other stuff.

1:49:32 But yeah, none of it's substantiated.

1:49:33 So we haven't really brought it into today's discussion.

1:49:36 A. Whole lot more in terms of his

1:49:37 court cases too, that we haven't gone into.

1:49:39 Like, is it he? He was hammering tongs on court

1:49:41 cases. I think he ended up spending

1:49:43 something like 5 million in in court.

1:49:45 But how did he get the money? Like he must have had somebody

1:49:47 bankrolling that because he wasn't that rich.

1:49:49 No, I don't know where he got it from, I have no idea.

1:49:52 I feel like somebody was on his side, somebody with some money

1:49:55 was helping him there. Who would be on his?

1:49:56 I don't know. Really don't know.

1:49:59 No. Either that or he died with a

1:50:01 lot of debt. I.

1:50:02 Think, I think absolutely that's true too, yes, but I don't know,

1:50:07 crazy. I mean, he probably he did write

1:50:09 a lot of articles, but not yeah, he wasn't rolling in $5,000,000,

1:50:13 that's for sure. But yeah, oop, nop, nop.

1:50:16 Cool. Thank you everybody for joining

1:50:18 us on another episode of Two Crime Besties.

1:50:22 If you like the cut of our jib and would like to and would like

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1:50:52 We will absolutely love hearing from everyone in the in the

1:50:55 socials. I know we had a little bit back

1:50:57 and forth with a with someone that just in the last couple of

1:50:59 days around the Ellison bait and Clay, you know, that was a local

1:51:02 at the time and that's something in this last sometimes we get,

1:51:05 you know, little snippets of information from people that

1:51:07 know know intricate stuff because they were, you know,

1:51:10 they were there at the time. So it's amazing who we can meet

1:51:12 and and check with them there. Yeah, fascinating.

1:51:15 So thank you for everyone that comes and puts in their opinion

1:51:18 because we're we're giving our opinions.

1:51:20 Please give yours. Oh yeah, absolutely.

1:51:22 I want to hear you tell me that. No, that's ridiculous.

1:51:24 Or the horse there. Is it here for it?

1:51:30 That's it. Excellent.

1:51:31 All right, we'll wrap it up. Thank you very much, everyone.

1:51:34 Stay curious. Crime besties.

1:51:36 Bye. Welcome back to Should We?

1:51:56 Sorry, Should we clap? Oh yeah, so profesh.