Episode 39 - Karla Homolka & Paul Bernado (AKA The Ken and Barbie Killers)

0:15 Welcome back everyone, to another episode of Two Crime

0:18 Besties. Hey Meg, how are you?

0:20 Good, thanks. How are you, Emma?

0:21 I'm. Good.

0:22 I've had a bloody busy week though.

0:24 My God, it was, this was the week of appointments.

0:26 We had so many extra appointments, so many extra

0:28 things and it's just been bloody mental.

0:30 So I had final appointment this morning and I'm like oh,

0:36 relaxing to the weekend now. I'm feeling like Sunday I can

0:39 probably, I can do that. I feel like breathe.

0:41 Yeah. Yeah, Saturday's gonna be mental

0:43 for us, but that's OK. Yeah.

0:45 Yeah. Even tonight I've like said to

0:47 the boys I got it's, you know, it's one thing after the other

0:49 tonight even to be prepared for what's coming.

0:51 I guess that whole, yeah, it's crazy.

0:54 You're you're hosting a sleepover for 8 year olds on the

0:56 weekends so. Haha I'm.

0:59 A fucking idiot. Glad it's not me.

1:02 Yeah, no sleep for me. That'll be fine.

1:05 You'll. Get You'll get sleep from Mike,

1:06 but your son. Will not be the problem, No by

1:09 any means. He'll be asleep by 7:00 PM.

1:10 He's good, you know, the the boys, the others might push him

1:14 to. 8I don't know. Although last night Oliver had

1:19 footy training until 7 and Peter had come to pick Lucas up to

1:25 take him back early. But then he didn't want to go

1:27 and he was running around with a few kids and having a play.

1:30 Yeah. So we actually, all of us didn't

1:32 get home until, I don't know, 7:15 or something.

1:35 And then they needed a snack because I'd fed them dinner at,

1:38 like, bloody 4:00. Yeah.

1:39 So they needed a bit of a snack before bed.

1:41 So he actually didn't get to bed until until 8:00 anyway.

1:46 And but then this morning, I had to wake him up and it was like

1:51 dragging. I don't know.

1:52 Yeah, someone who, a teen. It was like dragging a teen out

1:55 of bed. This is a child rating, that

1:58 fact, because that's my youngest in the mornings he can be a

2:01 shocker. I had to wake him up the other

2:03 morning too. And.

2:05 And that never starts the day, well, when you have to wake them

2:07 up 'cause then they're grumpy and, yeah, tired.

2:09 And I mean, I hate being woken up like.

2:10 It's not, it's not good. The alarm absolutely shits me.

2:13 Yeah. But yeah, no, I just, I'm sure

2:17 it will be fine. I'm sure that they will

2:18 eventually fall asleep. And I'm a night owl, so that's

2:22 OK. Like, it's more the fact I

2:24 think. I think that's the thing.

2:25 I'm just gonna let them go a little bit and.

2:27 Oh yeah, they can just have a chat.

2:28 And stuff. And then it'll I'll just have a

2:30 cut off like right, come on, guys.

2:32 That's it. Yeah.

2:33 Off to sleep. You go.

2:35 Goodnight. You're gonna wake up, Lucas.

2:40 You're a night owl. I'm the opposite.

2:42 I'm going early to bed, early to rise kind of a person.

2:44 But they'll kill me when they wake up in the morning at bloody

2:46 6:00 AM or earlier for Huck. Well, yeah, apparently one of

2:50 the kids who's going likes to wake up early, so.

2:54 Good luck, good luck. Oh, I love Brody's sensible

2:56 nature, he said to me. Oh no, no, no, not before 6:30.

2:58 Oh no, that's just ungodly. Are you making pancakes for?

3:03 Breakfast. Yeah, absolutely.

3:04 It'll be pancakes for breakfast. Sweet.

3:06 Lucas will be happy with that, yeah.

3:07 Yeah, I'm just controlling the sugar, that's all.

3:10 No, you can get no in the morning.

3:11 You can give them as much sugar as you want 'cause you're just

3:13 handing them back and back. To you guys, Yeah, yeah, right.

3:15 OK, cool. Yeah, done.

3:17 It's the night before I'd be worried if I were you.

3:20 I know I've sort of kept it at a minimum, but yeah, I mean, I was

3:23 still gonna do cake and stuff. Oh yeah, yeah, they'll be right.

3:27 No, it's exciting. I know Lucas is very excited.

3:29 This will be my first, like multiple kids sleepover, so

3:34 yeah, it'll be interesting. I've held it off this far.

3:37 It's not really a thing these days though, is it?

3:39 Like sleepovers are less common? Like back in I used to have

3:42 sleepovers all the time as a kid, like every other weekend.

3:46 I think almost every second weekend I was at a friend's

3:49 house for a sleepover I reckon. I would say the same with me.

3:52 My best friend growing up went to a different primary school,

3:56 Yeah. And so we used to sleep over at

3:58 each other's houses. Yeah.

3:59 At least every second weekend we'd be at someone's house.

4:02 Yeah. But I think these days, and, you

4:05 know, it's kind of a sad state of affairs, but I'm, I would not

4:09 let my kids sleep at anyone's house unless I know like you,

4:12 obviously, unless I know them inside and Outback back to

4:16 front. I've known you for many, many

4:18 years. Yeah, I I wouldn't I.

4:20 Don't know, I've had to like squash a bit of my kids

4:23 expectations of sleepovers for that reason that I see it from

4:26 both parents perspectives of like, you know that yeah, I

4:29 know, I know the mums say, but maybe I don't know the dad and

4:32 like, and so you want to know both parents, they're going to

4:34 you want to know that, you know, you sort of feel comfortable.

4:36 And so absolutely, yeah, I kind of feel like a little bit like,

4:39 you know, it's fine. I'm happy to have that child at

4:41 my house and sleepover. No worries.

4:43 But, you know, that might not be that child's comfort, that

4:46 family's comfort level. You know, it's kind of a real

4:49 test of waters as to whether or not that's something the family

4:51 would be up for. Yeah.

4:52 You know how well you know each other and.

4:54 Yeah, I think you're right though, that and maybe because

4:57 we have boys, it's a bit different.

4:58 I don't know, maybe boys are less into sleepovers.

5:01 Yeah, I know my brother had less sleepovers than I did when we

5:04 were. Kids, Yeah.

5:05 Maybe so. Maybe that's another thing, but

5:07 also it's not like our kids of being invited to that many

5:11 sleepovers. So I think most families

5:13 probably feel the same way as we do.

5:15 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, like my kids sleepover

5:18 at their grandparents place and all those sort of things, so

5:19 it's like for them to be away from home like that is

5:22 comfortable for them, whereas I know other kids aren't.

5:24 So yeah, that's true. It's just in general for that

5:25 reason too. I mean, God, we should do

5:27 sleepovers. Even we'd go camping with

5:28 families, you know, we'd all swap tents and stuff and

5:31 caravans that were sleeping when we go camping.

5:34 Sleepovers were just the thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

5:38 Crazy, crazy time. Well, I'm gonna have a free and

5:41 easy Saturday night when Lucas is at your place.

5:43 Yeah, I've decided we're gonna take Oliver to that all you can

5:47 eat sushi place. I love it.

5:49 When it comes down to that, oh, finally we get to have some

5:52 fancy food, Yeah. But because you can't, you know

5:55 that You know what's it called? Oh my God, I've just had a

5:58 mental okami. Oh yeah, yeah.

6:00 Which is an all you can eat Japanese restaurant, but even to

6:03 take Lucas there, yes you pay the kid prices but it's still

6:06 like $27.00 or $28.00 I think for a kid.

6:10 What's he gonna eat? Some rice.

6:11 And he's gonna eat rice. Yeah.

6:12 And even then, he doesn't really like rice.

6:14 He'd just be eating it begrudgingly because there's

6:15 literally nothing. Else.

6:17 To eat, whereas Ollie's gonna absolutely make the most of.

6:20 His He's gonna eat pork. 10 people's worth of all you can

6:23 eat. Yeah, so they could leave the

6:26 house down there. Forward to that.

6:28 So oh, that's. All, thank you for that.

6:29 Yeah, I love it because my eldest has decided to check out

6:33 for the night because he doesn't want to be around the little

6:35 ease having their sleepover either.

6:36 And I don't blame him. I was like, can I join you?

6:39 Yeah. Who has to stay home at the

6:42 greeze so your dog can look after?

6:44 This I know. I sort of went, maybe I'll

6:45 threaten them if they're not talking like Grizz will eat you.

6:48 Grizz is not going to enjoy this, no.

6:50 No, God, as if you'd eat them, you'd lick them to death.

6:52 Yeah, oh God, but then the the new axolotl in the household

6:56 will keep them entertained too. I'll.

6:58 So it was Brody's birthday this week and all he wanted like he's

7:03 been talking about this. For for a long time, long time.

7:06 All he wanted was an axolotl and make caved.

7:10 It's caved is literally the word for it too.

7:13 Like I don't. Know he wore you down.

7:14 No, he wore you down. Well, that's true.

7:15 And he does that a lot. Yeah.

7:18 Yeah. But I mean, you know how it's

7:20 one of those things where like, I am so repulsed by this.

7:23 Thing it is repulsed but. The look on his face one when I

7:28 told him you're gonna get that and that's, you know, when the

7:31 tank was revealed and we can go choose one.

7:34 But then the look again of when he actually got it at the fish

7:38 aquarium place like. I told the people what the lady

7:42 at the aquarium said. She so she he was so freaking

7:46 excited, couldn't only couldn't contain himself.

7:48 And she's like, oh wow, you're, you're a bit excited.

7:50 You're a bit like a giddy mum. Like a giddy new mum.

7:55 Like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Now he's basically keeps saying

7:58 to me, I am the father of one. Yeah, well, he tells me all the

8:01 time now. Yep, Yep.

8:02 Well, it takes a lot of care to look after an axolotl.

8:05 Yeah, you had to defrost some like shrimp stuff or something.

8:08 The other day put it in frozen at least but at the same time

8:11 it's like oh but watching it later.

8:13 Yeah, they're just so ugly. Oh, I kind of looked at it last

8:18 night and had a moment. Of oh, you did not.

8:20 No, it was sorry. I looked at it and went, if I

8:23 imagine that it's, you know, that movie How to Train Your

8:25 Dragon? Yeah.

8:27 Toothless, I think it's name, Yeah.

8:28 Toothless. Right, 'cause it's this black

8:32 Mexican walking fish thing. And I kind of looked at it and

8:34 went, oh, I can see a little bit of toothless and toothless is

8:38 kind of cute. Toothless is cute.

8:39 So I'm a cartoon. If I try and lean into, it's

8:42 toothless. Toothless.

8:44 OK, Kyle, as he's been named. I just love it.

8:48 I just love it. It's the best.

8:50 Yeah. The the morning after you got

8:52 the axolotl because you gave him the tank on his birthday, but it

8:56 was over a long weekend so you had to wait until the Tuesday.

8:59 To go and get the actual anyway and get the water right before

9:03 you're allowed to put the thing in there.

9:05 I don't know. I know.

9:06 Have you got to have the right pH level?

9:09 Oh yay, yay for you. It's bad.

9:10 For having a pool, like you've got to go get the water tested

9:13 and shit. Really.

9:14 Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is.

9:15 A commitment. Oh, it's yeah.

9:16 Yeah, how long do they live for, 12?

9:19 12. Years they do not. 12 years.

9:24 Are you kidding? I was thinking you'd you was

9:26 about to say 12 months and I was like, even that's a commitment.

9:30 12 years. Wow, oh wow.

9:34 OK, it I I didn't know that until after we got it.

9:39 That's mental. Yeah.

9:41 OK, Well, Yep. Welcome to the next. 12 years of

9:44 your life, I don't think it'll last that long.

9:47 If the frogs are go far. Have they lasted a couple of

9:51 years? Yeah.

9:53 They did okay, yeah. Yeah, okay, a couple of years.

9:57 If it's a couple of years, that's all right.

9:59 Just make it, make it that way. Oh, bless the Little Axe a

10:04 little. Oh, Kyle, Kyle Gorge.

10:08 All right, I've got a few shout outs for well, I've got a shout

10:11 out for this week, actually, because this person deserves a

10:15 singular shout out for the episode today.

10:17 Absolutely, because she actually bought us 10 coffees on

10:20 buymeacoffee.com. Two crime besties, if anybody

10:24 else would like to also partake, but thank you a million times

10:29 over to Emma James for her very, very generous contribution to

10:34 the podcast. Yes, so very appreciated.

10:36 We really appreciate it. And she just said favorite

10:38 podcast. That was her comment.

10:40 And I'm like, Oh my God, we're someone's favorite podcast.

10:45 I love that. It's fine.

10:47 It's actually really humbling, don't you?

10:49 Yeah, completely. Yeah, yeah, I love it.

10:52 I know when I'm like, we get inbox messages and stuff like

10:55 that and I really do my best. I try to respond to every single

10:58 one that we get and they, they're growing the amount we're

11:00 getting. So and I, I write back and I

11:02 love then I get back little responses.

11:04 I'm like, Oh my gosh, we answered or, you know, like,

11:06 'cause I think people expect us not to, but I'm like, oh, it's

11:08 just me at my work. Yeah, like might be at my job.

11:12 Like kind of just respond to that person quickly.

11:14 Yeah, you know, like, you know, so 'cause we've gotta have real

11:17 lives where we just gotta earn money.

11:20 Yeah, that's. It.

11:21 Unfortunately, Yeah. Yeah.

11:22 Oh. The dream The dream for this to

11:24 be a paid job, that would be amazing.

11:26 I. Absolutely love that people are

11:28 really enjoying it to that point where they want to contribute.

11:31 And yeah, so thank you very, very, very much.

11:33 Yes. Thank you.

11:34 Very much appreciated. Yeah.

11:36 All right. Should we get into today's case?

11:38 Let's This is a big one. This is a.

11:40 Big one, but it won't be A2 parter, no, because we've we're

11:43 trying to keep it pretty high level.

11:45 The other thing we just wanted to say before we get started

11:47 about this one is that there is a lot of conflicting information

11:52 out there. And I think it's by nature of

11:54 the fact that there are so many podcasts and articles and so

12:01 much stuff out there. Opinions.

12:03 And I exactly. And.

12:05 Yeah. And you can find information to

12:08 support whatever you want to support.

12:10 Yeah. But then I think in that the

12:13 telling of things has gotten twisted all over time.

12:16 So we've done our absolute best. Yeah, to get what we know to be

12:20 factual. If we get things wrong, we're

12:22 really sorry. We really have done our best to

12:24 try and keep this all on track. Yeah, so today we are talking

12:29 about Carla Homolka and Paul Bernardo, also known as the

12:32 Canon Barbie doll killers from Canadia, from Canada, Canada.

12:37 EE look, this is our first Canadian case too, which is, I

12:42 mean, I love Canada, so I think Canada is just a beautiful place

12:46 that but not only that, like I think I feel we feel a little

12:49 bit of kinship between Australia and in Canada.

12:52 So you know, I think very similar values.

12:54 I don't know like that. Sort of stuff with Canada.

12:56 Agree, like every Canadian I've met has always been such a nice

12:59 person. Never met a Dick head Canadian.

13:02 I yeah write them. Write them.

13:04 Got got quite a few Canadian friends once.

13:07 Some that have moved here permanently and others that are

13:09 that live in Canada that, yeah, from growing up and travelling

13:12 and stuff. But every time I met a Canadian

13:14 travelling like they'll just always great people that and

13:17 good people that you stayed in touch with, you know, like kind

13:19 of they were, yeah. Just good people, good people.

13:22 We are gonna be talking about a total piece of shit.

13:24 Yeah, so we've only got one, well, two pieces of shit in

13:27 this. But yeah.

13:30 And I have to say, like when we when you told me the name of

13:32 these, this case that we were doing of being Carla Hamolka and

13:36 Paul Bernardo, I was like, Oh my God, I don't know this one, you

13:38 know. But as soon as I let went to

13:39 research and it came up with Ken and Barbie killers, I was like,

13:42 oh, I do know this. And that's all I knew it as.

13:46 I just didn't know the names of them that were like to the.

13:50 I've listened to podcasts about them, but clearly hadn't

13:53 registered their names. Yeah.

13:55 But yeah. So as soon as I was like, I saw

13:57 that, I was like, oh, I know what we're doing.

13:58 Like right onto it. Cool.

14:00 Yeah, when I first got into listening to podcasts,

14:03 specifically true crime podcasts, obviously Serial was

14:06 the first podcast I listened to. Yeah, but then this I the very

14:11 next one, after I'd finished listening to Aerial, the next

14:14 podcast I listened to was Canadian True Crime.

14:17 That's the name of the podcast. Yeah, and this was the first

14:19 episode. She did first episode, yeah.

14:21 Well, first I think it was a 2 harder, Yeah.

14:24 And so, yeah, I feel like that's, it's really kind of

14:27 etched into my memory. Yeah, just listening to her.

14:30 And then anyway, obviously there's lots out there.

14:32 Have to say I know because in one of those her episodes, I

14:35 think that in those first two episodes she sort of says

14:38 something like, this is my first, you know, be gentle.

14:41 God, they're bloody good though they're being her first two

14:43 episodes. It blows my mind how she's.

14:45 Australian, actually. You know what?

14:47 And listening to it, and I think it was a real listen, to be

14:49 honest. Like when I was listening to it

14:50 this time, I have a feeling I had listened to it like couple

14:53 of years ago kind of sort of thing.

14:55 Yeah. And I was listening and I'm

14:57 like, she sounds a bit Australian, not Canadian at

14:59 times, but. I'm Australian, yeah.

15:01 Yeah. So she moved there.

15:02 I think she married a Canadian, right?

15:04 And she moved there and. That makes so much sense now

15:07 because I'm. Yeah, I do remember, I think one

15:09 day I was in my car and it just flicked on and I'm like, but I

15:12 thought I was listening to Canadian true crime and because

15:14 I'm like, this is an Australian. What's going on?

15:15 Yeah, I thought my podcast had flipped to another.

15:18 Yeah, OK, cool. I was onto it but.

15:21 Worth worth a listen? I I totally rate her I think.

15:23 She's really good. No, I'm blown away.

15:25 Like, because, you know, our first episodes don't sound that

15:28 good. I don't.

15:28 Reckon Oh God, no, no, but and I've listened to it.

15:31 She's done a few, you know, like episodes like we did with our

15:34 Q&A episode. And she talks about, like in her

15:38 first episode, she was recording in a closet.

15:40 Yeah. And we talked about that because

15:42 we're trying to get our sound, right.

15:44 We're like, we need to be like how?

15:46 Yeah. How closet some things.

15:47 Yeah, Carpet. We need carpet, yeah.

15:49 We need padded walls for more reasons than one.

15:53 All right, So where do we where do we start?

15:58 I'm gonna just start with Carla. Yeah.

15:59 Yeah. So Carla Homolka was born on the

16:01 4th of May in 1970. Her middle name is Leanne.

16:05 That will come into play a bit a little bit later.

16:07 She was born in Mississauga, ON, in Canada, which is near the

16:12 Niagara Falls region, so absolutely stunning part of the

16:17 world. You've been there?

16:18 No. Oh, yeah, I have.

16:19 It's absolutely amazing. It's incredible.

16:21 Another on the list. Yeah.

16:23 Another spot that comes up is Niagara on the Lake, which is

16:25 just down from Niagara Falls. And that, honest to God, is one

16:28 of the most, most beautiful spots.

16:31 It's just spectacular. Anyone who goes to Niagara

16:33 Falls, take the trip down the road a bit further and go to

16:36 Niagara on the Lake. So beautiful.

16:38 Yeah, imagine living there. Like growing up there.

16:41 Absolutely stunning. That blows my mind that's that

16:43 place. Loved it.

16:45 Karla was born to parents Dorothy Homolka.

16:48 And now it's either Karel or Karl.

16:50 I guess it depends how you want to say it, I guess.

16:52 The anglicized version of his name is Karl.

16:55 Yeah. It's spelled Karel.

16:58 He was a Czech immigrant and, you know, as a profession, once

17:03 they moved to to Canada, he was a travelling salesman.

17:08 Colour used to tell people that he was an art dealer.

17:11 But what he actually did for work, do you remember back in,

17:15 I'm gonna say it's like the 70s, maybe even.

17:18 Yeah, probably in the 70s, those velvet paintings, Like I reckon

17:22 everyone had a velvet painting in their house.

17:25 No. Hideous.

17:26 The most hideous. Well, as most things wear.

17:29 For gaudy shit, yeah. Yeah.

17:31 Was there orange in it? Oh, of course.

17:33 And gold, I mean, burnt orange, the 10 velvet paintings, doesn't

17:39 it? 70s to boot.

17:41 So he was, that was what he did. He went and sold these bloody

17:44 gaudy paintings around town. But Carla liked to tell people

17:47 he was an art dealer. Carla's mum, Dorothy was an

17:53 administration assistant at a geriatric clinic.

17:56 So she did most of the, I guess, child rearing because Corel was,

18:02 you know, often away for work, as is the nature of somebody

18:06 who's a travelling salesman, I suppose.

18:08 But when he was home, he wasn't the nicest of people.

18:10 No, he was quite violent, Yeah, and physically and emotionally,

18:16 verbally abusive, and I believe he was.

18:19 He had a very tight rein on the purse strings as well.

18:23 So I think there was some financial abuse going on within

18:25 the household too. Yeah, yeah.

18:27 I mean, that just gives a little bit of an idea of of the the

18:30 state of affairs in that household.

18:32 So apparently he at one stage had an affair and his wife found

18:36 out about it, and her way of correcting that and trying to

18:40 fix that in their marriage was to just invite her the affair

18:45 into the bedroom and have a threesome.

18:48 Seriously. Yeah.

18:52 EW. So I mean, it sort of starts

18:55 that whole idea of what kind of things were happening in that

18:59 household for what was to come for Carla.

19:03 I suppose so, but my fucking God.

19:07 Yeah. Wowza.

19:09 Yeah. Carla had two siblings, so Carla

19:14 was actually the eldest. Then she had a sibling, another

19:18 sister named Lori. She was born in 1971 and and

19:22 second sister born in 1975 by the name of Tammy Lynn Hamolka.

19:28 Again, we'll come into play later.

19:30 Yeah, I think not only. OK, sorry, I'm just spinning out

19:38 about this threesome thing. But I think Carell was also a

19:42 drunk. And yes.

19:43 So basically anytime he was at home, he's drinking, he's

19:47 obviously a fucking. I mean, I knew he'd had affairs.

19:49 I had no idea they'd invited someone back.

19:52 She'd invited someone back into the bedroom to what end?

19:55 Like, was she just trying to please him?

19:56 Please. Him, I think, yeah.

19:57 OK, so I guess the girls would have seen that pleasing nature,

20:01 maybe not necessarily the threesome.

20:03 No. The fact that her mum accepted

20:06 the affair and moved on with it. Yeah, yeah, that's how she.

20:11 What was the way to fix that? Yeah.

20:14 Was. Well, you know, if you're gonna

20:15 have affairs, we'll just bring them home with you rather than

20:17 have it outside of the home, I think.

20:20 Wow. That blows my mind.

20:23 Yeah, Carla was a very intelligent girl.

20:28 She had a high IQ. They say that she had sort of

20:32 superior intelligence. So that's a like a significant.

20:35 1:30 sort of stuff. Exactly.

20:37 A significant IQ. She was a really good student.

20:40 Her peers referred to her as a bit of a Princess and but also a

20:44 bully. Yeah, she wasn't.

20:47 Well, I think it depended on who you were.

20:49 I think she chose her targets in terms of, oh, that's a typical

20:52 bully, isn't I see. It's in terms of who she would

20:54 would target in those ways. Yeah.

20:57 She also did some really weird shit as a kid.

21:00 So she killed her friend's hamster.

21:02 Now, the way they did this, this is horrible.

21:05 Yeah. But they basically decided to

21:08 make a parachute for the hamster and then throw the hamster out

21:11 of the second, testing the parachute.

21:13 Yeah, so apparently when they did this, the hamster died and

21:17 the friend was absolutely distraught by this.

21:21 Yeah. Colour, on the other hand,

21:23 didn't seem to really care. No, They then buried the hamster

21:28 and two weeks later Carla decided to dig it up just to see

21:33 what had happened to it and how it had decomposed or how much it

21:36 had decomposed in two weeks. Yeah, I mean, this is red flag

21:40 territory, isn't it? Absolutely.

21:42 Absolutely. Yeah.

21:43 She had people described her as sort of having those bully

21:46 traits but also lack of empathy, even as a young child.

21:50 Yeah. So there was sort of these

21:51 things where coming out in her, she then as a teenager started

21:55 sort of going into sort of bit goth kind of dark makeup and

22:00 things like that and sort of, you know, ventured into that

22:02 sort of territory. Not there's anything wrong with

22:04 that if you're into that sort of thing.

22:05 But I think she took it to another level like she was

22:07 obviously. Super into it.

22:09 Yeah. She was also like, in this is

22:11 we're sort of in her high school years now.

22:13 Yeah. She was experimenting with drugs

22:15 and sex. Her first boyfriend, they had

22:17 sex really, really quickly. Yeah.

22:19 He explains it very differently to her though, the sex and the

22:22 relationship they had sexually. Well, she says it was all like

22:25 BDSM Massively. Like yeah, and.

22:28 He was like. No, it was just really normal.

22:30 Sex, like I mean your first sexual experience you're not

22:34 really out there, no BDSM ING it up are.

22:36 You well, I mean, not normal, no, no, like, but maybe her.

22:41 I wouldn't be surprised. But then for him to describe it

22:44 in later on, like to sort of be saying, Oh, no, like, I mean, I

22:48 don't know what game would he have to lie about or, or, you

22:52 know, to go along with it or whatever.

22:54 That's he. He very much describes it as a

22:56 very vanilla knowing sexual relationship of young of young

23:00 teenagers. Yeah, knowing what we know about

23:02 color, I fully believe what he says.

23:04 Yeah, well, I believe what he says, but I also would believe

23:06 what she said in some ways too. Yeah, I don't know.

23:09 She also started cutting herself around this time, but she'd only

23:12 got herself like fairly enough to make a mark she wanted to.

23:16 Show people, Yeah, she wasn't really.

23:18 Like, she was telling people she wanted to kill herself.

23:21 And that was like, that was what went with this whole goth

23:22 picture. And that's what I mean by she

23:24 took it to another level. Like she thought she was like,

23:27 yeah, I don't know, showing something off to people as, you

23:29 know, look, I want to try and kill myself.

23:31 She didn't really. She was just I.

23:33 Don't get for attention, which is careful.

23:35 That's probably a whole nother yeah thing we could get into,

23:38 but it's just something she did. Yeah.

23:42 She really developed an interest in animals early on, the hamster

23:45 situation. You'll see her interest in

23:47 animals to me is a is a red flag.

23:51 And it sounds very altruistic. Like, you know, I wanna look

23:53 after animals. She didn't wanna look after

23:55 animals, I don't think. There was definitely something

23:59 more going on there. Yeah.

24:01 While she was at high school, she had a part time job at a pet

24:05 shop. Yeah, type shop, Yeah.

24:07 And then that continued after she finished high school.

24:10 She then went to work in a quite a few actually, I think 3 or 4

24:14 different vet clinics. Yeah, as a as a vet assistant.

24:17 Yeah. Is that just like a vet nurse?

24:19 Yeah, a vet nurse. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

24:23 Interesting, I might just get into a bit of a back story

24:26 about. Paul yeah, because I'm at 17.

24:28 Yeah, the two crossed paths. That's right.

24:30 So. We're there.

24:31 Yeah, we're there. Maybe we'll.

24:33 Start now back. Yes, yeah.

24:34 So Paul Kenneth Barnardo was born on the 27th of August in

24:38 1964 to parents Marilyn Barnardo and Kenneth Barnardo.

24:44 He was born in Scarborough, ON, near Toronto, a suburb of

24:49 Toronto. And Kenneth was a marble and

24:54 tile salesman and Craftsman. So I think he did a lot of, I

24:58 don't know, like carving of marble and that kind of thing,

25:02 but also then did marble for like countertops and things like

25:06 that. I believe he owned his own

25:07 business. Yeah, there was a fair bit of

25:09 money in the family. They were quite well off.

25:11 Yeah, they absolutely were. That was, I think thanks to

25:14 Kenneth's, Kenneth's parents, they were very wealthy.

25:18 I think they were lawyers and that one was a justice, I think.

25:24 Yes, I believe. Yeah, yeah, they're both lawyers

25:26 now. I'm sorry.

25:28 Yep. So there was a fair bit of

25:29 wealth, like familial wealth within that family.

25:32 Yes, Paul had two siblings. So Paul was actually the

25:37 youngest of his family. He had a the middle sister was

25:40 named Debbie and then his older brother David again.

25:45 This family is so fucked up. It is not even this.

25:50 It's actually worse than Carla's.

25:52 Family. Yes, I I I agree.

25:54 Barnardo's dad so Kenneth. Absolute fuckwit that.

25:58 He is actually. Wasn't no so his so not his

26:01 biological dad will get to that in a sense.

26:03 But the father, the father figure of the family, Kenneth

26:07 sexually abused his sister and he would do it in front of other

26:12 family members. So they'd be sitting at a family

26:14 dinner table and he'd be fondling, fondling her under the

26:19 table. What a piece of shit.

26:23 Sorry there's so many pieces of shit.

26:25 Actually, we said to at the start of the start of the start,

26:27 but there's so many more. Absolutely disgusting.

26:30 But he also, it also went to full intercourse.

26:34 It was just the most heinous of abuse against his own daughter.

26:40 Yeah, and I'm sure it extended beyond her or.

26:42 Apparently. Yeah, apparently he did do

26:44 similar to nieces and cousins and things too, apparently.

26:48 Total piece of shit. Was he ever convicted of that?

26:50 I don't. Believe no, I didn't read

26:52 anything about it, but it was known.

26:54 It was known. But I don't know that he was.

26:55 I'd never actually read that he was ever convicted of any of it.

26:58 No, I don't think he was looking.

27:00 I couldn't. Yeah, certainly not under his

27:01 name that I could find. Yeah.

27:03 Unless I don't know if he's, I mean sometimes when perpetrators

27:07 are perpetrators are offending against children sometimes.

27:12 And in Canada I think this happens semi frequently where

27:15 they will change the perpetrator's name so that

27:18 they're not fucking murdered or raped in prison even though they

27:20 deserve to be. But I'm not sure.

27:25 I just never actually saw anything to that.

27:27 But as you said, it was known within the family that he was

27:29 doing it and fucking nobody did anything about it, I don't

27:32 think. Yeah, but he so physically

27:37 abused his, his mum as well as, and, and Paul as well.

27:43 So other members of the family were also, you know, targets of

27:46 his in other ways, which was awful.

27:48 He he spoke to his Paul's mother atrociously, you know, treated

27:54 her like absolute shit. But yeah, as the as he grew up,

27:57 Paul was told to Paul eventually that he wasn't actually his

28:02 biological son and his mom had had an affair and fallen

28:06 pregnant. And so but that sort of flicked

28:10 a switch for Paul and he really just began to treat his mother

28:15 then as he's the father in the household treated her and he

28:19 spoke to her disgustingly. And he really took a turn from

28:23 that point that seemed to be a bit of a trigger for him.

28:26 Not not that I think it was perfect before that because I

28:28 think it was a bit of a spoilt brat kind of from what the vibe

28:31 I could get, but but it really that ramped up his in the home

28:38 behavior of quite disgustingly treating his mum and his disdain

28:42 then maybe for women in general sort of seemed to kick in.

28:45 I. Think so.

28:46 He was 16 years old when he found out this information.

28:49 So I mean that's a that's a critical point in your life,

28:52 isn't it? So.

28:53 But from all accounts outside of the home, he was like model

28:58 person. Everyone respected him and

29:00 thought it. Was been a little charismatic by

29:03 any chance Meg? I think that might be a weird

29:05 ideas. Because he absolutely portrayed

29:07 this, this kind of image of the perfect young man.

29:11 Yes. And he was very polite and he

29:13 was engaging and he'd, you know, ask people all the right

29:17 questions and do all of the right things.

29:19 He was studying at university, you know, he was very.

29:22 Attractive by the that day standards and.

29:25 I know I love the photos of like, you know, those the like

29:28 wedding photos, there's things like that.

29:29 You have that era and you're like, I totally see, you can see

29:32 the fact that people were like this was Ken and Barbie.

29:34 They were very attractive people, both Carla and him, very

29:38 attractive people for the time. You know, the hairstyles, the

29:42 clothing, the poofy, you know, shoulders on, clothes on the

29:45 dresses. And I love that stuff.

29:47 I love it. But yeah, definitely, you know,

29:49 by standards of that, they were an attractive couple.

29:54 Absolutely. And that I think that's where

29:56 this gets really almost like a bit more awful because they were

30:01 so normal and so look so normal looking.

30:05 You know that that what the persona, that of what outwardly

30:08 who these people were separately before they even met each other,

30:11 as well as then when they come together is that they were this

30:15 beautiful couple who you know. Like nobody expects these

30:19 gorgeous people to be anything other than what they're putting

30:23 out there into the world. Yeah, I just noted down as well.

30:26 So not only was Paul at this time, at the age of 16 finding

30:30 out his dad isn't his dad, that'd be, you know, that'd be

30:34 horrible. But then the sorry and you were

30:38 saying he would abuse his mother and he would call her things

30:41 like slut, whore, just really degrading things.

30:43 But she then would actually fire back at him and she called him

30:49 things like the bastard from hell.

30:51 And so the volatility within that household.

30:55 Must have been. Just mental.

30:58 Yeah. Paul's biological father was a

31:02 man by the name of Bill. Right.

31:05 He was actually, he was actually Marilyn's first ever boyfriend

31:11 and the love of her life. But her parents didn't approve

31:14 of him. And so they made her break up

31:18 with him. And then she found Kenneth.

31:20 And because Kenneth came from money, her parents were like,

31:23 yes, let's go with him. Yes.

31:25 Oh, and then look how that. Turned out you should go to

31:27 wonder though. I mean, he's the product.

31:29 He's still the product biologically of those two

31:31 people. But would he have been

31:33 different, raised in a different?

31:34 Well, this is nature and nurture.

31:36 Yeah, that because that psychological side of it just

31:39 pricks my interest that yeah. Oh God.

31:43 But then I look biologically at and it's actual biological

31:48 children, Debbie and David. Who who he targeted too.

31:51 Like it's not like he only gave shit to David.

31:53 I mean, clearly the sister particularly copped a lot and

31:57 they've turned out. Well, they not to have done what

31:59 exactly perpetrators of these horrific crimes.

32:03 OK. As a younger, so I think this is

32:07 sort of again around the 1617 mark, Paul's behaviour started

32:14 escalating. So he had pyromaniac

32:18 inclinations. So surprised box #1 Yep, Yep,

32:22 right. Dark sexual fantasies.

32:25 He wanted to create a virgin farm where he could breed virgin

32:28 girls to rape. OK, Yep.

32:35 That's a new one. Yep, that.

32:37 Was a virgin farm. Yep.

32:41 I mean, you'd have to be pretty forward thinking, wouldn't you?

32:43 Because, I mean, you'd be, you'd be.

32:46 Calling him an entrepreneur, Entrepreneur, but.

32:48 You'd be 20 years, you know, of, I don't know, depending on how

32:51 old the girls are. But I don't know what made him

32:53 think this, but he actually wrote out a detailed plan

32:56 somewhere that someone found Oh my God written how he was going

32:59 going to do. This, well, I mean, this is the

33:01 thing. I mean, he liked them younger

33:03 and Yep. And they had to be virgins.

33:06 So I mean, oh God. He collected pornography around

33:12 this time as well. Yeah, not not your vanilla

33:15 pornography, though. He liked to see women defecating

33:18 on other women. That was his particular

33:22 pornographic. I don't.

33:26 Type of like choice. I don't just get how that can

33:30 be, I really don't know. But that was what he liked, and

33:34 he also really liked watching group sex.

33:39 OK, yeah, that's your thing. I can come with that more than I

33:43 can shitty on each other. Yeah, yeah, He was also, at this

33:49 time, again, this is another tick for you.

33:52 He started being a bit of a neighborhood peeping Tom.

33:56 Dad was too. Yeah, he's not biological dad.

33:59 Yeah, Kenneth. Kenneth.

34:00 Yeah, Kenneth was a peeping Tom as well.

34:02 Yeah, Kenneth used to. Was actually caught once

34:04 masturbating at the front of a neighbor down the side of a

34:07 neighbor's house looking at their next door neighbor.

34:09 Gross girl. The girl, not the mum.

34:11 Right, see that's see, that's the thing these behaviors to me

34:15 emulate him who's not biologically his father exactly.

34:18 So the man who raised him. But talking nurture here.

34:21 Aren't. Yeah, yeah.

34:23 Interesting. Very interesting, Yeah.

34:26 From the time Paul had girlfriends and he started, you

34:31 know, with that when he was in his teens as well, he was

34:33 physically abusive towards them. Yeah.

34:37 He also, according to two of his very early girlfriends, he only

34:43 wanted anal sex. He did not want like, PNV sex at

34:47 all. And he always wanted to use wine

34:52 bottles in their sexual play to essentially sodomize his

34:58 girlfriends with the wine bottles.

35:03 This then escalated in one of his relationships to

35:06 strangulation. And at that point, this

35:10 girlfriend was like, no, I'm out.

35:12 And she she actually says, I really feel like I escaped.

35:17 No. An untold or unknown horror from

35:21 staying with him. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

35:24 Awful. So he had a few different jobs

35:28 along the way. Prior this is this is all prior

35:31 to meeting colour. He had a paper route as a young

35:35 kid. He then worked as a security

35:37 guard and a waiter while he was in university.

35:41 He became obsessed with self help books and like like those

35:47 books that sort of to make yourself better, but to what?

35:51 Like I don't really understand the motivation because he was

35:54 like this fucking sexual sadist and he was.

35:56 Well, his Bible was American Psycho.

36:00 That was his favorite book. Yeah, I think he read that as a

36:04 self help kind of style book or most.

36:07 Well, by the nature of what we know happened next, you're

36:10 probably. Right.

36:11 Yeah, yeah. I think the self help books

36:14 actually like taught him how to be persuasive because there were

36:18 things like, you know, how to win friends and influence

36:21 people. Those kinds of books, yeah, I

36:23 think he really used them because he was like clearly

36:25 socially quite fucked up that that was how he learnt to charm

36:30 people, to then get them to do what he wanted them to do.

36:33 Because the other way he learnt to do that was through becoming

36:35 an Amway salesman. Oh yeah, that's right.

36:38 Oh, pyramid ski. Yeah, but.

36:40 Him and his mates from Amway would use those skills of how to

36:44 sell products, right. People's indoors, they were

36:47 using them and going out and use that to pick up women at bars,

36:51 they used those same principles. So yeah, he was learning how to

36:54 be a human, like how to be normal, and following those.

36:59 Rule books. It wasn't innate.

37:00 He had to learn. Learn that.

37:02 Yeah, yeah, yeah. But yeah, I love.

37:03 I thought that was a bit hilarious, using those same

37:05 skills on women in the bars, but.

37:07 And apparently it worked. Bloody weird.

37:10 He went to the University of Toronto and he did like a

37:14 business type degree. He would lie to girls to get

37:18 them to sleep with him and then they would never last long

37:22 because a they'd find out that he'd lied to them.

37:24 And also, he obviously wanted the type of sex that maybe those

37:28 girls didn't necessarily want. Escalate to a point where they'd

37:31 be like, oh God no. Like that would become abusive.

37:33 Like yeah, and every relationship he had, but.

37:35 I feel like it happened right from the get go, Yeah.

37:38 It's not like he eased them into it.

37:40 No sort of went. This is what I mean to.

37:43 Would that be something that would be interesting to now he's

37:45 forcing that shit on? That yeah, he was.

37:46 And I think that's because he really didn't kind of want

37:50 someone who was into it. That kind of probably ruined

37:53 some of the fantasy for him. Absolutely.

37:56 Yeah, absolutely. He became a junior accountant at

38:01 Pricewaterhouse after graduating from university, and so he

38:05 actually had quite a decent job there and was earning pretty

38:10 good money. And he kind of was setting

38:12 himself up, you know, for a future.

38:15 Yeah, yeah, yeah. But in the background of all of

38:19 that. And on the 4th of May in 1987,

38:23 he perpetrated his first sexual assault.

38:25 That we know. Of that we know of.

38:27 This is the thing. Like he, we know that rape is so

38:30 underreported, it's quite possible they were far more than

38:36 we're aware. Of I would also argue the fact

38:38 that these girlfriends that he had prior to this, I mean what

38:43 he did to them would constitute rape as well.

38:45 In within, like, what do you call that into a date rape kind

38:48 of label on it? Whereas I I'm, I would say back

38:51 in the 80s, those women would have believed, well, it's not

38:54 rape because I'm dating him. Yeah, I think that would have

38:57 been the mindset. Yeah.

38:58 So whereas I mean, we know today that a married man can, you

39:02 know, it can be a marriage situation, can be it's rape, but

39:05 still rape if you say no, absolutely it's.

39:07 Not OK. No one's ever entitled to have

39:10 sex with you. No, you need to consent to that.

39:12 Absolutely. Whereas I think in the 80s, that

39:14 would not have been the mindset of the women in these

39:16 situations. I think unfortunately for them.

39:19 Right, Yeah. But I think reflecting back now,

39:21 they'd be like, shit. Well, yeah, that's what that

39:23 was. That wasn't consensual, but

39:26 yeah. So between 1987 and

39:29 approximately 1991 April ish, he there were 14 women who reported

39:37 that they had been raped in and that they that were attributed

39:40 to what they then called the Scarborough Rapist.

39:44 So which we will later on find out like within all this that

39:48 was was Paul Bernardo. Yeah.

39:51 So I think the thing that sort of linked a lot of these rapes

39:53 was not only the types of rape that he perpetrated, it was

39:57 often sodomy. He never showed his face to his

40:01 victims. But he didn't wear a a balaclava

40:03 or anything like that. He wouldn't, didn't cover his

40:05 face in that sense. No, but he would take them from

40:09 behind essentially, and he would hide in bushes and grab them off

40:14 the streets. He'd hide behind bus shelters,

40:16 that kind of. Thing he wasn't breaking

40:17 entering into people's homes and doing these it was out he would

40:20 like basically accosted them in their backyard or in a park or

40:25 something like that was there were outdoor environments where

40:28 he could. Yeah.

40:30 Find them and get them, yeah. Another thing that linked linked

40:33 all of those crimes together was the reporting of the women who'd

40:37 who'd been the victims. Yeah.

40:39 They said things like he used a knife.

40:40 He was brutal. Yeah.

40:42 He wanted to video some of them power and control during during

40:46 the assaults. He'd demand that they repeated

40:49 demeaning phrases like I'm a slut, I'm a whore.

40:53 The suffering of the victim. The more the victim was

40:56 outwardly expressing their suffering for the rape, the more

41:00 aroused he became and the more violent the attack would then be

41:05 or the the rape would then be. And the rapes would last

41:09 anywhere between 30 minutes and an hour.

41:12 I actually saw one that was like 2 hours.

41:14 Oh, just like when I heard that at first, that really got me

41:19 like I think to think, I mean, I not thank God being in that

41:23 situation, but all I can imagine is being in that scenario going.

41:27 It'll be over soon. It'll be over soon, right.

41:30 And for those poor women that a minute would feel like a

41:35 lifetime. 45 minutes, an hour, just all my heart broke like.

41:41 Can you even imagine, like when you're, I don't know, doing

41:45 something that you don't want to do and you're thinking, Yep,

41:48 it'll all be over soon? Yeah.

41:50 That, as you said, a minute feels like an.

41:53 Hour how those women have then soldiered on after that.

41:58 I just my heart breaks. I just how do you move past an

42:03 absolute assault like that? That's awful.

42:06 Horrific. On the 17th October in 1987 Paul

42:11 and Carla met. Carla was 17 years old at the

42:14 time, 2 Pauls 23, so 6 years different there.

42:19 She was at a conference for her, she was working at a pet store

42:22 at the time. She was pre going into vet

42:24 nursery and she was visiting this conference and so staying

42:28 at a hotel. So at 17 like that's pretty.

42:31 Apparently it was the first time she'd been out of town without

42:34 her family, right? And the friend who she went with

42:38 was a little bit older than her, so kind of took her under her

42:40 wing a little bit, right? But they had separate rooms at

42:44 the hotel. They weren't staying in the same

42:45 room together, but apparently they decided they'd been at the

42:50 conference all day. Colour had actually gone back to

42:53 her room and changed into like track pants or like pyjama

42:57 pants, Right. And then they went to the

42:59 restaurant at the hotel, which was like AI can't even remember

43:02 what it was called, but it's like a like a fast food type of

43:06 restaurant. That was that was just attached.

43:08 But I had a bar and had a bar. Yeah.

43:10 And anyway, they've gone down there for dinner, and Paul had

43:14 actually just recently broken up with a girlfriend and his friend

43:17 said to him, come on, let's go out for drinks and dinner.

43:20 And they ended up at the same hotel, restaurant and bar.

43:23 Yeah, apparently when Paul and Carla met, it was immediate,

43:28 like the attraction was. It was lost at first sight.

43:32 Yeah, from According to Colours friends.

43:34 From both sides, Yes. Yes.

43:36 Absolutely. There was an immediate

43:38 chemistry. They were both seemingly

43:40 infatuated with one another right from the get get go.

43:43 So much so that approximately 1 hour after meeting they were

43:47 having sex in colours hotel room.

43:49 Yeah, yeah, straight from that point, they, I guess their

43:56 relationship just continued. From there, yeah, they just

43:58 what? Literally fell straight into a

44:00 dating scenario and we're going out.

44:02 Yeah, yeah. One of the things that Paul

44:04 didn't like about the whole situation, though, was that he

44:07 found out early on in their relationship that Carla wasn't a

44:10 virgin. Yes, that and he really was not

44:12 OK with like that. He made that a deal.

44:14 That a big deal. Like, yeah, and she felt bad

44:17 about. Yeah, I mean that.

44:20 She couldn't give him that and there was no turning back time

44:22 to that like that's. It Yeah.

44:24 But that was a yeah. It was a something that was

44:26 brought up a lot, yeah. Carla has later reported that

44:30 early on in their relationship, Paul's sexual fantasies were

44:36 made very well known to her. Yeah, it started out where

44:40 basically he wanted her to be his sex slave and do anything he

44:45 wanted without question. She sort of complied with that

44:48 right from the get go. Yeah.

44:50 He in particular liked it when they played out a scenario of

44:53 her being like, like, a subservient French maid in the

44:57 bedroom. So, I mean, look, at this point,

45:00 she states that it was all consensual and she was happy to

45:03 go along with it. Yeah.

45:05 But it was really the start of something that became a lot

45:09 more, I don't know, extreme. Yeah, way to say it.

45:13 Yeah, yeah, I reckon, yeah. Carla introduced him.

45:17 I mean, she's 17 years old, she's introduced him to her

45:19 parents. And I think at the start, the

45:21 fact that there was a six year age difference, especially from

45:23 a 17 year old to a 23 year old, they weren't immediately

45:29 enamoured by him, but I think they suffered pretty quickly,

45:31 pretty quickly. Pretty quickly.

45:32 And he became like, you know, just, yeah, someone they really

45:35 liked and wanted Carla to be with.

45:38 And yeah, because as we say on outwardly, Ken and Barbie, they

45:42 were like the perfect couple. Yeah.

45:44 They look beautiful to get together like.

45:46 And Paul charmed her. Parents.

45:47 Oh yeah, yeah, big time. Big time, yeah.

45:50 Around the time of their meeting too.

45:52 So this was probably about six months after the Scarborough

45:55 rapes had commenced. There was a slight lull for a

45:58 few months in the Scarborough rapes.

46:00 We now know, obviously, given the timeline of all of that.

46:03 Yes. Around this time as well,

46:07 Carla's friend. So this isn't the friend who was

46:09 with her at the hotel. This was a school friend was

46:11 over at her house and she found a list on Carla's desk and she

46:16 just had a bit of a read of it while Carla wasn't in the room.

46:19 Yeah, and it said healthy eating, personal hygiene.

46:22 Never let anyone know our relationship is anything but

46:25 perfect. Don't talk back to Paul.

46:28 Be a perfect girlfriend to Paul. If Paul asks for a drink, bring

46:32 him 1 immediately. Remember, you're stupid.

46:35 Remember you're ugly. Remember you're fat.

46:38 I don't know why I tell you these things because you never

46:40 change. Oh so.

46:44 Who wrote that, Carla? Wrote that to herself.

46:46 To herself. Jeez, yeah, it's awful.

46:51 It's horrible. She's 17 years old.

46:54 Yeah. And he's already, this is in the

46:57 infancy of their relationship. Yeah, she's already feeling like

47:02 this, like he's making her feel like she's stupid, fat, ugly and

47:05 needs to bring him. Like she's already nervous about

47:08 not bringing him a drink immediately when he asks for one

47:10 or demands 1. Yuck.

47:13 It's so fucking yuck. Yeah, so yuck.

47:19 Yeah, but come December 24th, 1989, and Paul does propose

47:26 marriage and Carla absolutely is so ecstatic, like this is what

47:33 she wants. It's they're very happy.

47:37 There's been moments obviously, in this relationship where it's

47:39 been bumpy and things are stuff already.

47:43 There's been a number of occasions where Paul has sort of

47:45 threatened to leave and things like that.

47:46 But Carla is very keen to keep this relationship on track and

47:50 to keep him even though from that list you can tell, I mean,

47:55 there's quite a bit of control and quite, quite a bit of abuse

47:59 within this relationship, well and truly.

48:01 Prior to them getting engaged as well, yeah, Paul actually had

48:06 several relationships with other women.

48:08 Yes. And so he was having affairs all

48:11 the time. Yeah.

48:12 Paul started commenting very early on in their relationship

48:17 to about Tammy, Carla's sister. Yeah.

48:20 And specifically that she's a virgin.

48:22 Virgin. Yeah.

48:23 He actually demanded of Carla that Tammy remained a virgin.

48:29 So number one, it's actually none of color's business, none

48:34 of Paul's business quite clearly, but also none of

48:36 color's business what Tammy chooses to do or not do with her

48:41 body and with her virginity. But you know, he says to color.

48:45 Note you need to make sure she remains a virgin.

48:47 Oh, God, yeah. So yeah, bringing that up with

48:50 her already of like flagging that that she's got like Tammy's

48:53 got something that you couldn't give me.

48:56 That's it. By late 1988, so this is about a

48:59 year before they get engaged, a police hotline is set up because

49:05 the Scarborough rapes actually start to increase again and

49:08 they're actually becoming more and more prolific.

49:10 We should say, too, I guess it is unknown if Carla knew he was

49:15 going out and raping women. Like, we don't still know

49:19 whether she knew that at this point.

49:20 Yeah. I I suspect this is my gut

49:23 feeling, and I don't, I only know this from what we've been

49:27 researching this week. So yeah, you know, this is just

49:29 a gut feeling for me. Yeah.

49:30 I feel like at this point, she didn't know.

49:32 Yeah. But I feel like once, I feel

49:35 like by the time they were engaged, I think she knew.

49:38 Yeah. I think if she didn't know it

49:41 was the Scarborough Rapist necessarily, yes, But I think

49:44 she would have had an understanding of his needs and

49:48 that he was going out of like, their relationship to fulfill

49:51 that. And that that probably equated

49:53 to doing that sort of thing. So yeah, I, I think that that's

49:57 really where she her head was at of her knowledge.

50:00 Yeah. So in 1988, the November of

50:03 1988, a task force was set up to catch this rapist.

50:06 Yeah. And at around this time, the

50:08 11th victim actually sees his face, and she's interviewed by

50:12 police. Thank God she came forward very

50:14 quickly. She was interviewed by police

50:16 and they got a sketch artist to do a composite sketch of him.

50:20 And oh, my God, it looks so much like him.

50:23 Like, bloody hats off to her because she didn't seem for

50:26 long. No, it's not like she was facing

50:28 him the whole time. No, she just caught a few

50:31 glimpses of him. Yeah.

50:33 And she was able to get, like, a really, really accurate

50:36 representation of him. Yes.

50:38 So impressive. It was it's that's beyond.

50:41 Especially like in the trauma of all that for her to have.

50:45 Oh, I'm so impressed by. Because as we see later on in

50:47 this same story, like, some people get a car wrong.

50:49 Yeah. You know, Yeah.

50:50 Let alone, like, trying to be able to, you know, put together

50:53 a face. And the detail of a face just

50:55 blows my mind. Same.

50:56 Yeah, the police disseminate the image everywhere.

51:00 It's in newspapers, it's on TV, it's everywhere you can possibly

51:03 think. And yeah, 16,000 tips came in

51:06 over the next few weeks after this image has gone out.

51:10 Friends, a couple of friends and, and a number of previous

51:14 girlfriends of Paul suspect that it may be him.

51:16 And so I think two people or three people maybe reported it

51:20 to the police hotline. And eventually the police got

51:24 around to just going to Paul to say, hey, your name's kind of

51:28 come up. And he's like, oh, I think I

51:30 look like that photo. He was so that interesting in

51:33 the police interviews of this, like it's he's so casual around

51:37 and like, you know, they sort of say, what do you think you've

51:39 been brought in today? He's like, because I clearly

51:41 look like the pitch. Yeah.

51:43 Like, yeah, yeah. Isn't it funny?

51:45 Yep. Yeah.

51:46 Get it? They don't have any suspicions

51:49 of him whatsoever. No, but they, I mean they do

51:51 take a DNA sample. Because he offers one, he's

51:53 like, oh, go right ahead, take a DNA sample.

51:55 It's fine. Yeah, yeah.

51:56 Like, you know. And then because he thought, and

51:59 quite rightly, he was right to think this.

52:01 Yeah, by being so casual about it and offering up his DNA.

52:04 But also DNA, it was so new IT. Was new, but if they really

52:09 thought it, they would have prioritized it absolutely.

52:11 But they didn't they They didn't think they'd need to.

52:13 But it was so new. I think he also.

52:15 Manipulated this situation, yes. But in his arrogance of it too,

52:18 it's like, well, DNA. I don't think he probably had a

52:22 full understanding the DNA would actually link him either.

52:25 With it being such a new technology, I don't know that he

52:28 actually really understood that it would.

52:30 Yeah, like it was 24 months after or 26 months.

52:34 I think it was actually after that DNA sample was taken that

52:38 they even got to testing it. Yeah, so and we'll get, we'll

52:41 get to the results of that in a minute.

52:43 Yeah. Wow.

52:45 OK. So as you said, December 24th,

52:48 1990, nineteen 89, they get engaged.

52:52 Not long after that, though, so he loses his job at

52:55 Pricewaterhouse. Yes, yes, yeah.

52:57 And So what does he do? Like to start making money

53:00 smuggling drug tobacco in France?

53:03 Like illegal cigarettes. But like, I don't really, I

53:05 didn't really understand how you would make money doing that.

53:07 Like, so are we talking from Mexico or are we talking from

53:10 America? No, no, like, Oh yeah, because

53:12 he's Canada. So I'm thinking, yeah, I'm not

53:14 sure. I didn't actually.

53:14 I just assumed Mexico. It it must have been because

53:17 there's no way. I don't, I don't know.

53:19 It was tobacco, definitely smuggling tobacco, but you know

53:22 mainly why what what he wanted to make the money for.

53:24 Though, oh what? He wanted to be a rapper.

53:27 Oh yes. Oh my God.

53:29 Oh. That cracked me up.

53:30 I was like, oh mate, his favorite person on the planet

53:34 was Vanilla Ice. Oh, ice, ice, baby.

53:41 I mean, I love me a bit of Vanilla Ice, don't get me wrong,

53:44 but for fuck's sake, who did you think he was?

53:47 Oh God, yeah. I mean, oh yuck.

53:50 Yuck. And he probably thought he was.

53:53 Oh, God, he would have thought he was, like, hotter than

53:56 vanilla rye. Yeah.

53:57 You know, like, oh, yeah, I could do that.

53:58 No worries. Yeah.

54:00 Oh, Jesus. Oh God, I.

54:04 Think it's probably worth just now introducing Tammy's work

54:07 friend. Oh, yeah, sorry, not Tammy,

54:09 Carla's work friend. So Carla met this girl in summer

54:14 of 1989 when she was working at one of the vet clinics.

54:17 Yeah. And we only know this girl to be

54:20 Jane Doe. We don't actually know her name

54:23 to this day. They met at the vet clinic and

54:26 Paul seemed to really like this girl.

54:28 She was a bit younger than Carla.

54:30 And Virgin. And a virgin took and Paul took

54:33 quite the liking to her. They invited her over for a

54:37 dinner and spaghetti Bolognese was it.

54:40 Something like that. Yeah, and they crushed up some

54:42 Valium. From her work that she stole it

54:45 from work, yeah. And popped it in the spaghetti

54:48 but didn't quite get the dosing right so.

54:50 Well, because she's used to putting giving it to dogs and

54:53 cats like, but sure. But she.

54:55 No, the calculation of like in terms of kilograms and dosages.

54:59 But I mean, I guess she's not a vet.

55:00 She's not a doctor, she's the nurse, and probably with that

55:04 side of things, she's administering whatever she gets

55:06 told to administer. True.

55:07 I don't know to what level. Whether she had to calculate?

55:11 Anything. Yeah, I'm not sure.

55:12 Yeah. So maybe that's where that went

55:14 a bit awry for them. Yeah, Well, so.

55:16 She passed out for about a minute.

55:19 They commenced. Well, when I say they, I think

55:22 in this instance because it was on video.

55:24 Yeah. So we know that only Paul had

55:27 started to well, what was going to be a rape, but it actually

55:33 didn't end up going anywhere because she woke up, but she had

55:36 no memory of anything that had happened.

55:37 So they just went no. Oh, maybe you had a little too

55:40 much to. Yeah, they just sort of turned

55:42 it into a like, oh, we thought, you know, like getting off you,

55:44 but like, you know, 'cause I thought there was something

55:46 wrong with you. And yeah, that's alright.

55:47 It's all good. Like, and this girl didn't

55:49 really think anything more of it because it all kind of made

55:53 sense to her. What?

55:54 What they told. Yeah, Yeah, OK.

55:58 Oh. Gosh, yeah.

55:59 Paul moved in with the Humulkas after losing his job at

56:03 Pricewaterhouse because he fucking couldn't afford to live

56:06 anywhere else, and they accepted him quite readily.

56:08 I think previous to this he'd stayed on weekends and stuff, so

56:11 I guess they thought they knew what they were getting by

56:14 letting him move in there more permanently.

56:17 Well, didn't they just? He did become more controlling

56:20 of color once he moved in, or I guess he had more access to her.

56:24 So the controlling behavior was just all the time as opposed to

56:27 when he saw her. Yeah, he would choose her

56:30 clothes for her, which I just find that so fucking disgusting.

56:34 When men choose clothes for women.

56:37 I'm like, what's that about? That is, no, I don't like it.

56:41 I don't like it at all. No, I mean, not only that, if

56:43 Peter chose clothes for me, I mean he's got a taste.

56:45 Of sorry. I wouldn't even go there.

56:51 No, don't. Yeah, but, but I mean, Carla

56:56 went with it and. She also, I think she liked it.

56:59 That's yeah. Yeah, he would also tell her

57:01 exactly what to eat. And I'm talking exactly, really,

57:06 he would say to her, You're having a ham and lettuce

57:08 sandwich for lunch. You're having this, you're

57:13 having that. Oh God.

57:15 She couldn't even choose what she ate.

57:16 That's. Awful.

57:18 Does this play into that? I wonder if this played into

57:22 that bedroom like BDSM type of thing which I I think they

57:30 partook in. Yeah, yeah, maybe.

57:33 That comes outside of the bedroom where you're then

57:35 telling somebody what to eat and drink and where where the.

57:40 Shit, obviously. He also would tell her what to

57:42 think. Yeah, probably Where the shit

57:46 and would also tell her what to think.

57:48 So she had an opinion about something that he didn't like.

57:52 Well then he just sorted that out quick.

57:54 Smart, didn't he? He'd keep her in check by

57:57 calling her fat. Yeah, ugly.

58:00 And she just complied with all of his sexually deviant

58:05 behavior. Yeah, and she but again, it's

58:07 still to this point even she was still reminded, very much so,

58:11 that she had not given him her virginity.

58:15 But that I think that's why she did all of this.

58:17 Other stuff she's trying to make up for that.

58:19 And make up for it exactly. Then to make up for it.

58:23 So yeah, this is when she decides to offer up her own

58:27 younger sister's virginity. Because that's hers to give.

58:31 Like for fuck's. Sake.

58:32 What was hers to make sure she kept?

58:34 Yes, According to him, yes. And so now she decided.

58:38 She decided that she would offer it up to.

58:41 Him so she actually gifted him like it was hers to give as a.

58:45 Christmas present? What the fuck?

58:48 What the actual fuck? Yeah.

58:53 So let's let's get into what happened that night.

58:56 So poor Tammy Hamolka. Yeah.

58:59 So she was 15 at this at this point.

59:02 Yeah. So, Tammy, they were at Carla's

59:06 parents' house. It was just before Christmas,

59:08 having a Christmas party at the, at the Homolka household on the

59:11 on December 23rd, 1990. And as everyone else sort of

59:16 started to head off for the night, like sort of finish up

59:19 the party, Carla and Tammy and Paul were left for the evening.

59:24 And I mean, as any 15 year old, you know, with an older sister

59:27 and her boyfriend, you think you're pretty cool hanging out

59:29 with them. And you're gonna, you know, if

59:31 they tell me to do something, I'm gonna do that.

59:32 You know, like. And they were offering her

59:34 alcohols. So they were having eggnog

59:36 sparked with rum. Yeah, they were having other

59:39 cocktail tells and and yeah. I mean.

59:42 Probably go with it too if I was 15.

59:44 Oh, and you can imagine Tammy, I mean, as we said, Paul was a

59:47 very attractive man. Like you can imagine this 15

59:49 year old being a little bit like starry eyed with, you know, you,

59:52 your sisters, your big sister's boyfriend showing a little bit

59:56 of an interest in you. You sort of would feel a bit

59:58 special and, you know, like that would be really lovely that he

1:00:01 was spending so much. Attention to her.

1:00:05 But when it. But the reasons for that were

1:00:07 just gross. So Tammy, I'm sorry.

1:00:09 Carla had also taken from her workplace some drugs, some

1:00:14 tranquilizers, and they were spiking her drinks with that.

1:00:20 Yep. So again, it was Valium, Yeah,

1:00:22 that they were spiking her eggnog with.

1:00:25 But on top of that, so just just to sort of set the scene just

1:00:28 really quickly. Yeah, apparently the house was

1:00:31 on a main level. That was where all the living

1:00:32 spaces were. Then there was a basement.

1:00:35 That's sort of like American. Canadian doesn't have basements.

1:00:37 Yeah, we don't have basements in Australia, no, but.

1:00:39 In the basement they had like a a TV room type setup and a

1:00:43 bedroom. Yeah, down there.

1:00:45 But most of the family actually slept on the 1st floor, so there

1:00:49 were sort of two floors between where Tammy, Carla and Paul were

1:00:54 hanging out and where the rest of the family were upstairs

1:00:57 asleep in bed. Yep, Yep.

1:00:59 So you can imagine that noise would not be traveling whatever

1:01:01 was going on down there. Yep, Yep.

1:01:04 So Carla had taken the Valium from work and apparently she

1:01:08 used to do this by ordering it under a vet's name and then so

1:01:11 no one would know that she was particularly being the one that

1:01:14 ordered it come in, she'd pocket it, take it home.

1:01:17 She also took Hallithane, which is an anaesthetic drug.

1:01:21 It's meant to be like a vapor. Yeah, about to use like a

1:01:24 vaporizer, aren't you? To like administer it, which I'm

1:01:26 sure that's what they would do in the vet clinic with the

1:01:28 animals. They would put it in the, you

1:01:30 know, breath breathing apparatus.

1:01:32 Yeah, but she didn't do it that. Way No.

1:01:34 She soaked a cloth in the halophane and held it over

1:01:38 Tammy's mouth and nose. And it did.

1:01:40 It knocked her out. I mean, on top of that, they'd

1:01:43 also given her so much Valium and then also a lot of alcohol.

1:01:47 Yeah. So just think of this absolute

1:01:50 cocktail of stuff going on. Yes.

1:01:53 They lured her down to the basement saying yeah, let's

1:01:55 watch a Christmas movie together in the video.

1:02:00 Now I've only read transcripts of the video.

1:02:02 I believe you can actually find audio of these videos.

1:02:07 Yeah, only audio. If you want to.

1:02:10 I chose not to. I chose not to go.

1:02:12 Anywhere near it, there's been and.

1:02:14 It was court. Hearings to destroy it all

1:02:18 because it is awful. This wasn't the first time that

1:02:22 Paul had videotaped an attack, but it is the first time that

1:02:28 the attack escalated to what ended up being murder.

1:02:33 So what they did was they've knocked Tammy out on the video,

1:02:40 Paul says. Here we go.

1:02:42 Keep her down, Tammy. Sorry, color at this point is

1:02:47 holding Tammy down. I'm guessing just in case, in

1:02:51 case she wakes. Up because that's what happened

1:02:53 the one time brief prior with Jane Doe.

1:02:55 Yes, yeah, but she oh God, with how much drugs they put on it on

1:02:59 your system. Paul commits a sexual assault on

1:03:02 Tammy. Again, this is all caught on

1:03:04 video. This is there's no conjecture

1:03:06 around this. And then he tells Carla to do

1:03:09 the same. Yeah.

1:03:10 And she does. She sexually assaults her own

1:03:14 sister. Yeah, absolutely.

1:03:20 Yeah, because. They'd given Tammy so such a

1:03:24 cocktail of drugs and also her being so young and everything,

1:03:29 Tammy actually ended up overdosing on everything she'd

1:03:33 been given and she vomited and then inhaled her own vomit.

1:03:37 So she aspirated and they could obviously Paul and Carla could

1:03:41 tell that she was not breathing. They tried to revive they.

1:03:45 Did try to revive her if that's something in that, I don't know,

1:03:49 but but then and they did call an ambulance eventually,

1:03:52 eventually so. What they did first was so

1:03:54 they've obviously realized we can't get her back here, so they

1:03:58 clean her all up, they change her clothes, they change the

1:04:02 blanket that was underneath her, and Carla goes and tries and

1:04:07 puts that in the washing machine.

1:04:08 By this stage, they haven't even woken up Carla's parents yet.

1:04:11 No one's woken up. They dial 911 they or is 91.

1:04:17 If that's Canadian. I was just about to say no

1:04:19 because everything I've read they say they dialed 9/1.

1:04:21 One might be. I maybe it is.

1:04:22 I wouldn't be sure. I actually don't know.

1:04:23 But anyway, it would make sense, wouldn't it?

1:04:25 Yeah, they the ambulance comes and they actually end up taking

1:04:31 Tammy to the local hospital and Tammy later on is unfortunately

1:04:36 pronounced deceased and very there.

1:04:39 Quickly, it's deemed an accidental death in that they

1:04:45 assume she's, yeah, had a couple of drinks And like Tammy, I'm

1:04:48 sorry, Carla and Paul, like, admit to the fact.

1:04:51 Oh, we did give her a couple of drinks, you know, like, you

1:04:52 know, they, they do admit to some of this stuff in terms of

1:04:55 what they, we gave her a couple of drinks and, you know, and

1:04:57 she's vomited and choked on her own.

1:05:00 And like. Just kind of that's the only

1:05:02 part of the story that's kind of attached to it.

1:05:04 Carla and Tammy's mum and dad kind of chalk it up to, Oh my

1:05:09 God, this is an absolutely tragic accident of a girl who

1:05:12 was just experimenting with some alcohol.

1:05:14 Yeah, the police do question Paul and Carla about.

1:05:18 So when they held the hallophane soaked rag over Tammy's mouth

1:05:25 and nose, it actually burnt a mark.

1:05:28 And you can see photos of the mark if you look it up online.

1:05:32 It burnt a mark into her face and the police were like well

1:05:34 what's this from? And they said, oh, we had to

1:05:37 drag her along the carpet face down.

1:05:39 I don't think so, but anyway, into the bedroom where there was

1:05:42 better light so we could perform CPR.

1:05:44 Fuck. Off.

1:05:45 And it doesn't. And the police would like a

1:05:46 carpet burn, OK? But they, but they just

1:05:49 immediately go, oh, yeah, it's a carpet burn.

1:05:50 Like you'd think that at some point in an autopsy situation

1:05:54 that someone would have gone, well, that's not a carpet burn.

1:05:57 It does not look like a carpet burn.

1:05:59 It looks like a chemical. Burn.

1:06:00 It's like a chemical burn because it is a chemical.

1:06:01 Burn, I'm not, I don't know that stuff, but I look at that and go

1:06:04 there's I'm sorry, there's no but.

1:06:05 You know what a carpet burn like as well?

1:06:07 We've all had a carpet burn. Yeah, gotcha.

1:06:10 Yeah, it's not a carpet burn. Nope.

1:06:12 So I mean, I think the cops have dropped the ball there

1:06:15 massively, which is pretty shit, but that's what it got ruled was

1:06:21 an accidental death. The police did, you know, search

1:06:25 the house and have a look around and all of that sort of stuff.

1:06:28 And when they were looking in Carla's bedroom, and you can see

1:06:31 this on the police videotape of the night.

1:06:33 So they've just done a videotape around, I guess, just in case

1:06:36 this did go any further. They've done all the right

1:06:38 things, and we're starting to collect all of the evidence.

1:06:40 Yeah. And apparently, in that video,

1:06:42 you can see a videotape on Carla's desk in her bedroom.

1:06:45 So they'd had the wherewithal to prior to calling 911 as well to

1:06:49 take the videotape out of the video camera.

1:06:53 But they only just put it in colours bedroom.

1:06:55 But the police never looked at it or anything.

1:06:57 I guess they would have thought it was like a, you know,

1:06:59 someone's recorded. I don't know what shows running.

1:07:02 The, I wonder if it would be different today in terms of, I

1:07:05 guess technology and the way they would file information

1:07:08 around cases that it would flag that Paul Bernardo's come in as

1:07:13 to be questions around the Scarborough rapist because he

1:07:15 looks like the the image. I wonder whether that would

1:07:20 trigger something today. Like when he's brought in to

1:07:22 talk, we talked to about a 15 year old girl who yes, no, rape

1:07:26 was not on their list of, you know what I mean?

1:07:29 Like that what they didn't actually in all of this,

1:07:31 somehow, somehow in an autopsy, they did not flag that she had

1:07:34 been raped. They didn't do a rape kit on

1:07:36 her, no. Like they wouldn't have done, I

1:07:38 wouldn't have thought to have done a rape kick when they think

1:07:40 it's a little a girl who's had a few too many drinks vomited.

1:07:44 But you would think that I. Don't know.

1:07:46 So I have kind of questioned things.

1:07:48 I did look at this. Yeah, in terms of why, why

1:07:50 didn't he get flagged at this point?

1:07:52 Because as you said, he he'd been questioned by police, but

1:07:55 unfortunately it was a different jurisdiction and they didn't

1:07:58 share information back then. That's why I wonder whether he's

1:08:01 if today those things would have been shared.

1:08:02 Across, I think sure, it would have been, yeah.

1:08:05 And you know, with social media, with even just the way media

1:08:09 reports things these days, I don't think there would have

1:08:11 been any way that he would have gotten away with this at this

1:08:14 point. But apparently the police,

1:08:15 police officers at Carla's house did search on their whatever

1:08:20 they could search on their system.

1:08:22 They looked up Carla, they looked up Paul.

1:08:24 No red flags. Had they just gone to the next

1:08:27 jurisdiction over in Toronto? Yeah, they would have actually.

1:08:30 Seen that Paul had had obviously been calling question, Yeah,

1:08:33 yeah, OK. Whether that would have changed

1:08:35 anything? Don't know, don't know.

1:08:38 It's hard to know. Yeah, Yeah.

1:08:41 But so not long after this incident with Tammy, which I

1:08:44 mean, what was really shocking, I think, and the family even

1:08:47 sort of flagged this in terms of the family were absolutely

1:08:50 distraught about Tammy's death. It really knocked them.

1:08:53 But it was really the family started noticing very quickly,

1:08:57 like Tammy and Paul are just moving on.

1:08:58 They're just planning their wedding.

1:09:00 Like they weren't grieving her like Tammy would.

1:09:03 Carla would get shitty with her family for not wanting to plan

1:09:07 this wedding and be happy for them because they were grieving

1:09:10 for their daughter, you know, or sister.

1:09:13 Yeah, which is awful. Like they they had no where for

1:09:16 wherewithal that that empathy, I guess where you know that Carla

1:09:19 lacks and I think. That started straight away after

1:09:21 she died. It wasn't like they they didn't

1:09:23 even seem to have a period of mourning.

1:09:25 No, no. Some really creepy shit happened

1:09:27 at Tammy's funeral. Though all right.

1:09:29 So Paul and Carla, obviously they're there the front row, but

1:09:34 they had an open casket for Tammy and Paul was seen stroking

1:09:38 Tammy's hair in the casket. Oh, he also put a photo of

1:09:43 himself and Carla in the casket. No, and a letter.

1:09:49 So it was their wedding invitation, but apparently there

1:09:52 was a letter in it as well. And the only reason we know all

1:09:55 of this, I mean, the the stroking of the hair was cited

1:09:57 by multiple people. But in terms of what he put in

1:10:01 the casket was unknown to Carla and Tammy's parents.

1:10:06 But later on, again, we will come to this, but later on, they

1:10:09 ended up having to exhume Tammy's body.

1:10:12 And that's when they found that Paul had put these things into

1:10:16 her casket. So he buried her with a photo of

1:10:19 himself. Oh, that is what?

1:10:22 Disgusting. Fucking piece of shit.

1:10:25 Oh like let's continue the abuse into her death.

1:10:28 Yep, oh evil piece of shit. God.

1:10:35 Oh, OK, All right. Well, so we don't know an exact

1:10:38 date of this next incident, but unfortunately who the person we

1:10:42 met earlier who's known as Jane Doe.

1:10:46 Since that was unsuccessful the last time, Carla takes it upon

1:10:50 herself again to invite her out to go shopping and do all these

1:10:54 things girly time and then have her over again for dinner.

1:10:58 And once again, this time they are successful in their assault

1:11:04 of her. They do drug her, et cetera, but

1:11:08 this time, but they don't kill her.

1:11:11 She survives that. I don't think she was aware of

1:11:14 anything that went on. She she was staying the night.

1:11:16 Like that was always the plan. So from the assault overnight,

1:11:20 which involved all sorts of it went on for hours that they

1:11:24 assaulted her again, videotaped it.

1:11:27 They then she obviously then woke up the next morning having

1:11:29 no knowledge whatsoever of what has occurred to her overnight

1:11:34 and went home and so poor Jane Doe, but but fortunately

1:11:38 survived the assault. Awful.

1:11:42 Yeah, this is just now obviously really incited further desires

1:11:52 in Paul. Yeah, and color.

1:11:54 Just wanted to please. Him.

1:11:56 So the videotapes of Jane Doe's assault, again, it's very clear

1:12:00 that that color is partaking in this, not being coerced.

1:12:05 She perpetrates the rapes as well.

1:12:07 Yeah, yeah. It's just horrible.

1:12:11 Absolutely. So we then come to another

1:12:15 victim. OK.

1:12:18 So Leslie Mahaffey? Yeah.

1:12:20 From June 14th, 1991, they I think, I think Leslie was coming

1:12:25 home from a friend's place. She was walking home from her

1:12:29 being at a friend's. I believe in Carla and and Paul

1:12:34 were in the car and I think that coaxed over offering her a

1:12:38 cigarette or something. So the way I understand this

1:12:41 one. Maybe that was the other one, so

1:12:42 I'm maybe confused between the two, but.

1:12:44 No, but this one, I think so Leslie had actually been at a

1:12:48 friend's wake. So she'd actually, Yep, she'd

1:12:51 actually had a friend pass away, I think from natural causes.

1:12:55 Like there was no nothing sort of necessary, not sinister

1:12:58 there, but a horrible situation. But her mum had said to her you

1:13:01 need to be home by curfew, which was say 10:00.

1:13:04 That's yes, yes. She then gets home and her mum's

1:13:06 locked her out of the house. Yeah, she's 14.

1:13:08 She's 14. Her mum's locked her out of the

1:13:10 house and be like, no, I told you to be home.

1:13:12 I mean, this is the 80s, early 90s, but yeah, the same.

1:13:16 Yeah. Yeah, I don't know, you know,

1:13:17 different. Whatever.

1:13:18 Yeah, that's what her mum's decided to do.

1:13:20 So Leslie was actually sitting on the front stoop of her.

1:13:22 She'd. Run Her friend, a friend of hers

1:13:24 to say, can I come to your place because I can't get into the

1:13:26 house? And for whatever reason, the

1:13:28 friend had said no, you can't come.

1:13:29 Here maybe their mum was like, no, you can't have a friend

1:13:32 coming over at 11:00 at night because I think it was quite

1:13:34 late. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:13:35 But yeah, so she was kind of stuck like on what to do.

1:13:38 So yeah, she was just hanging around.

1:13:40 So then Carla and Paul have just.

1:13:42 Paul Oh, sorry. So he's, he's like coasting

1:13:46 around the streets trying to find.

1:13:48 I think he's looking for someone to find.

1:13:49 So this one Carla didn't sort of bring to him.

1:13:51 Because he got home and he was like, hey Hon, look what I

1:13:54 found. Oh gross.

1:13:56 Yep, but she would've been happy about that.

1:13:58 Yeah. Oh well, she did all the things

1:14:02 that she'd done previously with her and sister and then with

1:14:05 Jane Doe as well. Exactly.

1:14:08 In the videotape for this one, which is quite, again, I've only

1:14:14 read transcript, but it's so fucked up, He says to her, So as

1:14:19 in Paul says to Leslie, the next two hours are going to determine

1:14:24 what I do to you. Right now, you're scoring

1:14:27 perfect. Because at the start she was

1:14:30 very submissive to what? Because I guess as a victim, how

1:14:33 would you know how to act? Oh, she just obviously at the

1:14:36 start decided to go with it. Mm hmm.

1:14:39 They're then perpetrating horrific, horrific acts on her.

1:14:44 And it then led to they were sodomizing her and this caused

1:14:50 her a lot of pain. And in the video, she's begging

1:14:54 Bernardo to stop. She's begging Paul to stop.

1:14:58 He was actually sodomizing her with his hands while Carla was

1:15:02 tying them. Tying her hands as in Leslie's

1:15:05 hands up with twine so that she couldn't push him away and stop

1:15:10 him from doing whatever the fuck it was that he wanted her to do.

1:15:14 Unfortunately for Leslie, I think as well, they had

1:15:18 blindfolded her, but during the perpetrating of the sodomy, her

1:15:23 blindfold actually fell off and she saw them and.

1:15:27 That they sort of, they say that this is kind of what then meant

1:15:31 that like with Jane Doe, they didn't kill her, but she was

1:15:35 knocked out for the whole thing. Jane Doe where they never, they

1:15:37 never knocked her out with drugs or anything.

1:15:39 So there is a difference in this assault.

1:15:41 And I guess that's where like Paul had that fascination with,

1:15:44 he wanted reaction from the victim and he maybe didn't get

1:15:48 that through the Jane Doe assault, which is just awful.

1:15:53 So but that's where he's moved to, you know, I want this one

1:15:55 awake. But then, yeah, that with the

1:15:58 with the slip of the the mask, that means that she's seen them.

1:16:01 And so that sort of becomes the motive of why they've then moved

1:16:05 to murder her. Yeah.

1:16:06 So they gave her a lethal dose of Halcion.

1:16:09 They also they, which is another drug that Carla got from the vet

1:16:12 clinic. Carla says that Paul strangled

1:16:15 her, although there's no evidence to say that that's

1:16:18 actually what happened. So they think she actually died

1:16:20 to the body. Right, exactly.

1:16:22 I mean, you wouldn't maybe know if he did.

1:16:24 But yeah, I guess they can't prove.

1:16:26 Because it's certainly in the in the rapist situation, he

1:16:28 definitely strangled women, yes. So that was definitely an MO for

1:16:32 him anyway, yeah. But I guess they can't prove.

1:16:35 It because what they. Ended up doing with her body so

1:16:37 she she died and they cut up her body into was it 30 pieces?

1:16:44 Or something like that. Something like that.

1:16:45 A lot of pieces, a lot of and encased them in concrete, in

1:16:49 cement. I really wanna know how and

1:16:52 where they did this in like that.

1:16:54 There's there's no nowhere you can find that, but it does flaw

1:16:58 me. I don't know like.

1:17:00 Apparently each block weighed up to 90 kilos, which for our

1:17:05 American friends is 200 lbs each.

1:17:07 Block. And there was, I think there

1:17:09 were 30. I don't I actually haven't

1:17:11 written down how many there were.

1:17:12 That's just or a quick. Thing to carry as well, then at

1:17:14 90 kilos to lift into a car or 'cause they go and dump it in

1:17:18 Gibson Lake. There's pieces which just oh

1:17:22 God, it just floors me what like and did where did they they did

1:17:26 they plan this out and have concrete on hand and go.

1:17:29 They didn't. He went, they found the receipts

1:17:32 in there when they when this all came to the fore, he kept.

1:17:35 So he kept a lot of trophies, Paul.

1:17:37 And one of the trophies they found in relation to this case

1:17:40 was he'd actually kept the receipts from buying the

1:17:42 concrete and he bought it the day she died.

1:17:46 Yeah, Right. Yeah, So there was no

1:17:49 forethought. Forethought.

1:17:50 And maybe they didn't know they were going to kill her.

1:17:53 I don't know. I really don't know.

1:17:56 Her body washed up ashore on the day that Carla and Paul got

1:18:01 married. So they got married in.

1:18:03 The 29th of June, 1991. Yep, they got married on the

1:18:07 beautiful Niagara on the lake where it's stunning and this is

1:18:12 what the contrast of these two scenes.

1:18:14 I just this is what I just it really makes me feel a bit I'll

1:18:18 they're at this lavish. They had a very lavish wedding.

1:18:20 There was they were, you know, left their ceremony in a horse

1:18:23 drawn carriage. And if I can just set the scene

1:18:27 of Niagara on the falls, It is one of these most stunning

1:18:31 quaint villages. It is really gorgeous.

1:18:34 I can just imagine tranquil, oh so tranquil.

1:18:37 The water you can hear all the time, like in the background

1:18:39 because it's a very fast flowing river.

1:18:41 You know, it's just the most, it looks like you've gone back in

1:18:45 time, like it is just gorgeous, gorgeous, gorgeous, gorgeous,

1:18:49 and then and then not far. Away, 18 kilometres away.

1:18:53 Is Gibson Lake where some fishermen?

1:18:55 It was a very well fished area. There were people out who have

1:18:59 found these. Cement.

1:19:02 Cement blocks washing up on shore with bodies in it of a 14

1:19:07 year old girl. And they are.

1:19:10 These two scenes are linked. Have you seen the photos of Paul

1:19:15 and Carla's wedding That like their wedding?

1:19:18 Photos It's very late 80s, early 90s.

1:19:22 Isn't that the hair? Big hair, big baby's breath, the

1:19:25 big poofy shoulders. It's literally what you'd think

1:19:28 of exactly like. But that's the thing it for the

1:19:30 time it was a high fashion, high fashion stunning couple.

1:19:35 You know it was eaten a bit wedding and you can just imagine

1:19:39 that bloody horse drawn carriage trotting off with the two.

1:19:42 Oh fuck me. Like, yeah, now we look back on

1:19:45 it and go. Two weeks later, sorry, two

1:19:47 weeks before that, they'd been murdering a girl.

1:19:50 A little girl. Yeah, and unfortunately, like

1:19:52 her body, you know, washed up and they weren't able to

1:19:54 identify it, you know, very quickly because it was so.

1:19:59 They ended up finding an orthodontic appliance in one of

1:20:03 the cement blocks and that's. Actually, how they identified

1:20:06 her, Yeah, Awful. Just horrible, yeah.

1:20:11 All right, next victim. Well, this is it.

1:20:12 We go into next victim, which I mean, it's nearly a year later.

1:20:16 There was a gap in there with me.

1:20:18 I mean, this must have sort of, I don't know, quenched something

1:20:21 in them for a little while, but not entirely.

1:20:24 Yeah, so on April 16th in 1992, the murder of Christian French

1:20:32 takes place. So they were obviously out

1:20:36 looking for something because they were essentially cruising

1:20:39 the streets, as you were saying, before they were together.

1:20:43 Yeah, in their car. We'll get to the car in a

1:20:45 second. Yeah.

1:20:46 And they spotted, they decided it was Carla's decision to go

1:20:52 past this particular Catholic school, noting that there'd be

1:20:58 school girls around, which is obviously what really got them

1:21:01 going. And they came across 15 year old

1:21:05 Kristen French, who was walking home from school.

1:21:09 They pretended like they were lost.

1:21:14 And apparently Carla got out of the car with a map and was like,

1:21:17 oh, we're lost, we're visiting my parents, they've just moved

1:21:20 here. Can you please help me find blah

1:21:22 blah blah. Being a lovely girl that Kristen

1:21:26 was, she's like, Oh yeah, of course I can help you.

1:21:29 And with that, they've shoved her into their car.

1:21:32 Apparently Carla sat behind her and held her hair so tight she

1:21:38 couldn't move. From the from behind God.

1:21:41 And that's how they restrained her the.

1:21:43 Number of people witnessed this brought into the car and who

1:21:48 then then attempted to identify the car, the vehicle that that

1:21:52 people that this young girl was being dragged into by two adults

1:21:56 but didn't go to help. Yeah, that flaws me well.

1:22:00 If they didn't go to help, nor did they actually report it to

1:22:02 police until they saw that there was a missing persons report the

1:22:07 following day, Yeah it's bloody weird.

1:22:10 Also like it was such AI guess, a frenzied kind of.

1:22:15 It sounds to me when they did describe it to police, it's like

1:22:19 this was not a, you know, oh, look, we've maybe misunderstood

1:22:21 what's going on there. Like a bit of a.

1:22:22 Parents and she's been naughty or something.

1:22:24 No, no, no. It was a full blown attack the

1:22:27 shoe. Was left behind.

1:22:28 Yeah. They found her shoe at the scene

1:22:30 the next day, driven off. Without, yeah, like, I don't

1:22:33 know. Come on.

1:22:34 Yeah, if you see something. Say something, but this poor

1:22:39 girl, I mean, she she was assaulted for a few days.

1:22:44 It wasn't you know, I mean we already spoke about how lengthy

1:22:47 Paul would assault women for, you know, in that there were

1:22:50 hours. This was this now moved to

1:22:52 another level again escalating that he they assaulted her for a

1:22:56 few days. They had her like kidnapped in

1:22:59 their house and constantly were torturing, sexually assaulting

1:23:04 and videotaping all of this that was going on and they were both

1:23:10 involved in it Well, well and truly just absolutely awful.

1:23:14 That poor girl. Just disgusting.

1:23:16 Again, they videotaped a huge portion of this, all of the

1:23:21 goings on here. Yeah, the only, the only thing

1:23:24 with this is that thank God, like to be honest, I they didn't

1:23:28 cut her body up when they did murder her.

1:23:30 She was intact. That so there's evidence that

1:23:34 she was strangled to death. That was the, the cause of

1:23:38 death. But she was just left in a

1:23:40 ditch. And I believe that she was there

1:23:43 for almost a week. I want to say it was like 6, you

1:23:47 know, 5-6 days between when her body was dumped and when her

1:23:50 body was found. So her body was.

1:23:52 Before, just before dumping her, though.

1:23:54 Yeah, they murdered her. And then the following night,

1:23:56 they did this over the Easter weekend, right?

1:23:59 And they put her body in their basement while Carla's family

1:24:03 came over to their place for Easter's Sunday dinner.

1:24:05 Yeah, with a dead body. In the basement, I think they

1:24:10 would get off on that, but. I think that was I.

1:24:12 Think they would love that because it was like we did this

1:24:15 and it would bond them more. But yeah.

1:24:20 I think around this time, Carla and Paul.

1:24:24 So when Kristen's body was found, Carla and Paul were

1:24:28 actually on, like, a delayed honeymoon of sorts.

1:24:30 They were actually in Hawaii where her body was found.

1:24:32 Yeah. And so they would have been, I

1:24:34 would imagine, revelling in that.

1:24:36 From overseas. Yeah.

1:24:38 From over in Hawaii. Yeah.

1:24:40 Grand old time. Cheers.

1:24:43 Yeah, yeah. April 30th, 1992.

1:24:45 Her body was found devastating. So, so sad.

1:24:50 In 1992, though, also a few months later, their relationship

1:24:53 really became another level of volatile and it was the first

1:24:58 attempt ever of of trying to leave the relationship.

1:25:03 So June 19th, 1992, she did sort of report some violence against

1:25:09 her from from Paul and she did try to leave him, but he

1:25:15 threatened to expose her role in her sister's death and that's

1:25:20 what kept her in the relationship.

1:25:24 This is this is a similar time as to probably later that year

1:25:28 actually was when finally the DNA that Paul had been had had

1:25:33 had taken it started to get processed.

1:25:37 So it was, it was only infancy stages though still, because it

1:25:40 was DNA testing back in the night at very early 90s, it's

1:25:43 still, you know, very infancy stage.

1:25:46 So. It also took forever.

1:25:47 Took forever. So I'm talking December 1992,

1:25:51 they've finally started processing it, so it's still not

1:25:54 there yet. It went into the system it was

1:25:57 taking. There was a massive backlog of

1:25:58 DNA testing to be done and that he's just, as we said, it wasn't

1:26:02 prioritised in any way, but it was finally starting to get

1:26:04 tested. But then in January of 1993, not

1:26:08 long after, a really vicious attack from Paul on Carla

1:26:13 occurred with a flashlight. He had attacked her, leaving her

1:26:18 with a couple of black eyes. She.

1:26:20 Actually, like one of her eyes was partially dislocated.

1:26:24 Yeah, it was a really hardcore vicious attack.

1:26:27 Yeah. So she actually filed charges

1:26:31 against him for this attack. But she, and actually in that

1:26:38 attempt of leaving, she actually tried to find the videotapes to

1:26:42 take them with her because I think she was like, he's gonna

1:26:45 hold that over me if I leave and this is my I'm gonna, this is my

1:26:48 one, I'm gonna go. So she tried to take them, but

1:26:51 she couldn't find them anywhere. So I think that that was another

1:26:55 pull back into the relationship. If she wasn't able to take those

1:26:58 tapes with her, then she knew he could.

1:27:00 But I mean, The thing is showing those tapes, I mean, it's gonna

1:27:02 show him up too, But I don't know where her PED was at with

1:27:05 that. I mean, he's gonna show who he

1:27:07 himself was as well, wasn't he, By giving them to anybody?

1:27:09 Yeah, But I, I, I just wonder because, look, this is where I

1:27:13 find this case really kind of tough.

1:27:16 And it pulls me in two different directions.

1:27:19 I have no doubt in my mind that Carla was a perpetrator of these

1:27:23 crimes, and she went along with it all.

1:27:28 I think had she not met Paul, she wouldn't have necessarily

1:27:31 become a rapist and a murderer. And I think I.

1:27:39 So I was, I listened to a a psychologist talk about this

1:27:42 specifically. So Doctor Rachel Toles then she

1:27:46 said like she has not done therapy with Carla, She's not

1:27:49 assessed her. She can't just can't diagnose

1:27:53 her. However, from the childhood

1:27:56 descriptions of who she was, you know, and those sorts of things

1:27:59 that you can kept like which are genuinely who this person was

1:28:02 growing up and the terms being used around that.

1:28:04 She had no empathy, that she had bullying behaviour, these other

1:28:08 aspects of her personality. She was fairly convinced of the

1:28:12 fact that she would die, could have a diagnosis of narcissistic

1:28:16 personality disorder and antisocial personality disorder.

1:28:20 Doesn't matter a murderer. No, that's it.

1:28:22 And so she actually believed that without meeting Paul, she

1:28:27 probably wouldn't murder. She would make people's lives a

1:28:29 living hell. Oh yeah, she.

1:28:31 Would. Oh my God, she would write awful

1:28:32 things to people. Yeah, but without pairing her

1:28:35 with Paul, murder probably wasn't on her radar.

1:28:39 Whereas Paul, she believed he had sadistic qualities to him,

1:28:45 putting him into that psychopath category and that he was already

1:28:50 flagged by people within the investigation that whoever it

1:28:54 was that was perpetrating the rapes was escalating.

1:28:58 Yeah, so, so they had an FBI profile come in very early days

1:29:03 of the Scarborough Rapist because they they were like,

1:29:05 this is out of control. We don't know what to do.

1:29:07 We don't know who we're looking for.

1:29:08 We don't know anything. Yeah.

1:29:09 And so at that time, the FBI profiler was like, OK, this is a

1:29:13 young, a white male. Young white male in his 20s.

1:29:16 He would be abusive towards any partner he had.

1:29:20 Yeah. There were lots of different

1:29:21 things which ticked Paul ticked every single one.

1:29:24 Yeah. They then brought that same FBI

1:29:26 profiler back. Yeah, when these murders started

1:29:29 happening because they called them the schoolgirl killer

1:29:33 murders. And they did link the two of

1:29:35 them together quite quickly due to some marks on the bodies

1:29:37 being similar like in that they were like the same implement has

1:29:41 been used. Yeah, and one of them, the crime

1:29:44 was committed in one place, the body was found in the other, and

1:29:47 then the reverse was true for the other victim.

1:29:49 Yes. So they were like even

1:29:50 geographically, we can link them.

1:29:52 Yeah, but what this profile did then was just by chance, it

1:29:56 happened to be the same person. And he then did a profile on

1:30:01 what, on the schoolgirl killer or killers.

1:30:04 And he actually said there's more than one of them.

1:30:06 But they, they kind of knew that because people had seen 2A male

1:30:10 and a female getting Kristen into the car.

1:30:14 But he actually said the exact same thing.

1:30:18 It was like, it's a male in his 20s is abusive against his any

1:30:21 domestic partner, blah, blah. Like more of the things that the

1:30:25 FBI profiler noted were true of the Scarborough rapist and,

1:30:31 yeah, the schoolgirl killer. Well.

1:30:33 It was also like in one of the rapes he did actually stab a

1:30:36 girl, yeah, in the leg twice I think it was.

1:30:38 So he was escalating towards that kind of infliction of

1:30:43 injuries and things like that as well.

1:30:44 So this, the psychologist I was listening to was of the opinion

1:30:48 like he would have moved to murder with or without Carla,

1:30:50 potentially. But the combination of the two

1:30:53 of them is what escalated it that quickly and her joining in

1:30:59 on it. So yeah, fundamentally she might

1:31:02 not have been a murderer on her own, but with the combination of

1:31:05 somebody else, yes. So, yeah, interesting.

1:31:11 It is just where that sits later on.

1:31:13 I'll yeah. Yeah.

1:31:16 Yeah, let's get there. Let's get to that.

1:31:19 I'm sorry. Go.

1:31:20 January 25, 1993 is when the DNA sample came back.

1:31:23 Ping. We've got Bernardo DNA linked to

1:31:29 the Scarborough rapists. So I think they were able to to

1:31:34 match him on all bar 1, is that right?

1:31:37 All Bar one that they actually had DNA for.

1:31:40 Yeah, they wouldn't. I don't know if they got DNA off

1:31:41 every. Yeah, I don't.

1:31:42 Yeah, maybe that's what it was. They didn't have DNA for one of

1:31:45 the victims, but they were able to link him in another.

1:31:47 Way, yeah, but there was, yeah, plenty there.

1:31:50 So yes, they bring in at this point.

1:31:52 Actually, what was interesting about this point of it was they

1:31:55 actually brought in Carla, not him.

1:31:59 And they, they immediately started surveilling him, didn't

1:32:02 they? Yeah.

1:32:03 And I think they, yes, they brought her in.

1:32:05 And so at this point, they're not looking at the murders

1:32:07 whatsoever, but they're linking up a few things.

1:32:11 And they brought her in to discuss with her the the rapes,

1:32:17 to see what they would get out of her.

1:32:20 And they put it to her. And now, according to her, she

1:32:23 had no no awareness whatsoever that Paul was the Scarborough

1:32:27 Rapist or that that was what he was.

1:32:28 Doing. I do not believe that at this

1:32:30 point. Yeah, at this point, I don't

1:32:31 believe she didn't. I mean, again, I don't know if

1:32:33 she knew he was the Scarborough Rapist, but I believe

1:32:36 wholeheartedly that she knew he was going out and inflicting

1:32:39 this on other. But they raped women together.

1:32:41 You know she knows he's a rapist.

1:32:43 No, that's what I mean. I think she absolutely knew he

1:32:46 was the he was a rapist. Yeah, but whether she was, we

1:32:49 was like, oh, he's the Scarborough rapist.

1:32:51 Like OK, Don't know if that connection had been officially

1:32:55 put together. Right.

1:32:56 Yeah, but I do believe she knew that's what that would be

1:32:58 behaviour of his. Yeah.

1:33:00 But yeah, she at first she acted all dumb and innocent and

1:33:02 everything and all of this. So yeah, had no idea.

1:33:05 But yeah, it came. I think she basically what it

1:33:08 planned with her was that she she needed to fess up to get to

1:33:14 look after herself. Here.

1:33:16 And didn't this work out well and truly in her favour?

1:33:19 Oh my God, yeah. So she so apparently she was

1:33:23 questioned the first time the police questioned her about all

1:33:26 of this. It kind of didn't really go

1:33:28 anywhere. I think the police were

1:33:29 information gathering at this point.

1:33:32 They had nothing to accuse her of necessarily.

1:33:33 They just wanted to get some information out of her.

1:33:36 Tammy was staying with her auntie and uncle.

1:33:38 Sorry, Carla was staying with her auntie and uncle at the

1:33:40 time. And she went home and actually

1:33:42 confessed to them everything, right?

1:33:45 She said to them that Oh my God, Paul has done this.

1:33:50 I, you know, he's done the rapes and we actually murdered Tammy

1:33:55 and these are the two girls and. How could you like her?

1:34:01 Auntie and uncle basically said to her, you need to get a

1:34:03 lawyer. Yes.

1:34:05 So she did that. She met with Niagara Falls

1:34:09 lawyer George Walker, and he sought immunity from the Crown

1:34:14 from the prosecution for in exchange for all of the

1:34:18 information that that Carla knew.

1:34:20 Yeah. Now to, I guess in some ways, to

1:34:23 the police's credit, they're like, well, tell us what you've

1:34:26 got and we'll see what kind of a deal we can broker here.

1:34:29 Yeah. And so she did confess to some

1:34:33 of bits and pieces, but certainly not all of it.

1:34:37 No. With that limited information

1:34:39 that she gave them, they decided to offer her a deal of 12 years

1:34:43 incarceration in exchange for a manslaughter conviction and her

1:34:49 testifying against Paul. Yeah, right.

1:34:52 She, they, I think they gave her seven days or something to make

1:34:55 that decision. Yeah.

1:34:57 Made it. Of course she made it because

1:34:59 she knew there was videotapes. Yes.

1:35:01 Although they, they had not known where they were at that

1:35:03 point. But she knew that at some point

1:35:06 this could potentially come to the fore.

1:35:08 But even in that like knowing that knowing those videotapes

1:35:11 exist and she even stated it in in her in her statement that she

1:35:17 that you know, the tapes will tell you like it will show

1:35:20 they'll prove everything that you know, I was being forced to

1:35:22 do this stuff by Paul which the. Tapes did not show that how.

1:35:27 She but what I'm. Saying is they've made a plea

1:35:29 deal with her based on their information that's actually

1:35:32 having seen the tapes. Yeah, because the whole time

1:35:34 she's like, so she does. She spends four days giving them

1:35:37 interview, being interviewed. It was like thousands of pages

1:35:40 in terms of like statements. That's unbelievable.

1:35:42 So a lot of information. But as we were saying, all of it

1:35:45 is sort of I was being forced to do this stuff.

1:35:48 It was all Paul and I was just doing what he was saying.

1:35:50 Oh, my life was in danger if I didn't do this stuff right.

1:35:53 I'm a victim to the whole time she's doing that.

1:35:55 For those four straight days, she's wearing a watch.

1:35:58 Oh. Yes.

1:35:59 She's wearing a Mickey Mouse watch that belonged to Kristen

1:36:03 French. So she's so innocent and so

1:36:09 like, just being made to do this.

1:36:10 What? You've stolen a victim watch

1:36:13 that you're wearing? Shit, that was like her going

1:36:15 yes, they kept trophies from all of their Yeah.

1:36:19 Oh, just really quickly. This is going back to Tammy

1:36:21 times, but this just reminded me in terms of the trophies yeah,

1:36:24 Tammy when Tammy died, they kept Carla kept her clothes and would

1:36:29 dress up as Tammy and have sex with Paul dressed as Tammy.

1:36:33 They kept other trophies of hers as well.

1:36:36 Yeah that they would use in their sexual play.

1:36:40 Oh my fucking God. Yeah like honestly just gross.

1:36:44 Just disgusting. Yeah.

1:36:45 So she I. Mean she's not like, I'm not

1:36:47 saying that she wasn't a victim of domestic violence or, you

1:36:51 know, and that she was well, that she was certainly in a

1:36:53 volatile relationship and in some ways, you know,

1:36:57 voluntarily, to be honest, I think she was, she got as much

1:37:01 out of it as Paul did in these attacks.

1:37:05 She is. She is not as much of A victim

1:37:08 as she makes out she is. Well, no.

1:37:10 This deal, that she broke it or that her lawyer broke it is

1:37:13 known colloquially, colloquially as a deal with the devil.

1:37:17 And it absolutely is because they made this deal, which is

1:37:19 binding. It's legally binding.

1:37:21 It was caught. All the things that was, you

1:37:24 know, it was legally, yes. Justly made.

1:37:27 Yeah. But the police didn't actually

1:37:30 have all of the information when they or the prosecutor, sorry,

1:37:32 didn't have all of the information when they offered

1:37:34 her this. Yeah.

1:37:36 So on the 17th of February, the detectives arrested Bernardo on

1:37:41 multitude of charges, including rape and murder.

1:37:44 Oh, no, sorry. Was it murder at this point?

1:37:47 No, I don't think they when they originally arrested him, I think

1:37:51 it was just for the rapes because they had no proof, no,

1:37:54 no evidence yet for the murders because they hadn't found the

1:37:57 tapes yet. No.

1:37:59 So they obtained a warrant as well for this, but it was

1:38:04 actually quite limited in what they were allowed to search for

1:38:07 with this warrant. They weren't allowed to knock

1:38:09 down walls. They weren't allowed to search.

1:38:12 They weren't allowed to cause damage in their search.

1:38:14 That was explicit in the warrant.

1:38:16 Yeah. So they've gone into Paul and

1:38:18 Carla's home. Yeah.

1:38:20 They were there for something like.

1:38:21 Was it? 71 days I.

1:38:23 Was like it was. I knew it was a long.

1:38:25 Time 71 day search of the house that Yeah.

1:38:29 But it turned up not a lot. I mean, they found trophies,

1:38:32 they found bits and pieces, but nothing that really was that,

1:38:35 like, nail in the COVID and not. They knew from Carla that there

1:38:38 were videos. So that's really what they were

1:38:40 looking for. Yeah.

1:38:41 Yeah. They did not find a thing.

1:38:44 No. During a call from Jael,

1:38:46 Bernardo told his lawyer at the time, Ken Murray.

1:38:49 Yeah. That the rape videos were

1:38:51 actually hidden. He had to go on a light fixture

1:38:55 in the bathroom. Yeah.

1:38:56 Removed that to get. Yeah, into the ceiling to get to

1:39:00 where the tapes were. So obviously the police a

1:39:02 weren't allowed to do that because they weren't allowed to

1:39:04 cause any damage to the structure of the building, but

1:39:07 also they hadn't looked there. Yeah, this fucking dipshit

1:39:11 lawyer. We'll see.

1:39:12 This is where I've read very contradictive, oh, ghost aspects

1:39:15 of this. Tell me.

1:39:16 So yeah, there's the viewpoint that he then went, oh, this is

1:39:19 that, you know, watch them and kind of went, oh, this will make

1:39:21 my my client guilty. I'll I'll hide them.

1:39:23 Right. There's that story.

1:39:26 The other story, which is what he claims in court.

1:39:29 Yeah, Underoath is that it wasn't that he hid them.

1:39:33 It was after viewing them, he knew that it would be

1:39:36 detrimental to his client. And so he was protecting what

1:39:41 trying to work out how best they would be used to protect his

1:39:47 client from getting a trial that was in the I don't know how to

1:39:53 word it. I get what he's saying in that

1:39:55 if this become it can be became public.

1:39:57 There was no way he was going to be able to get a jury or a fair

1:40:00 trial or a fair trial. So he was what that's what his

1:40:04 goal was, was to try and work out how they could be used in a

1:40:08 way that didn't purge, not perjure prejudice.

1:40:13 People against his client. I mean, but if a jury was gonna

1:40:16 see those tapes anyway to prejudice, prejudice you,

1:40:19 wouldn't you? I mean, it promised that he's a

1:40:20 murderer and a rapist. Yeah, from all accounts that he

1:40:23 adamantly he's like he's what he when he watched these, these

1:40:26 like traumatized him seeing them.

1:40:28 He has absolutely said these are the most disgusting things he's

1:40:31 ever seen in his life. So, yeah, but he was arrested.

1:40:36 He was charged with obstruction of justice but was acquitted.

1:40:40 Yeah. So I think we have to take, you

1:40:42 know, take an account that the intention wasn't to just

1:40:45 honestly hide these. And they're not telling me.

1:40:47 Apparently he did tell people about them, but it was a

1:40:50 conversation was happening, you know, behind the scenes about

1:40:54 how it could be used and keeping it legal.

1:40:58 To be fair as well, he also resigned as Paul's leader.

1:41:02 So. Whether or not he did it, you

1:41:04 know and. I think I think he watched those

1:41:06 videos and went I I just. Can't how do I now represent how

1:41:09 do I now represent him? And so but he was trying to it

1:41:12 wasn't necessarily that he was vehemently hiding them away.

1:41:15 He was trying to work out fuck, we're fucked.

1:41:18 Like you know, but how do I do I what can I do here to manipulate

1:41:21 this to try and defend my client and with and that was taking

1:41:24 time and conversations with people before he was releasing

1:41:28 them to anyone else. You know, so I can't.

1:41:30 I don't think he I think he agrees that it didn't.

1:41:34 It wasn't necessarily above board, but it was like, what

1:41:37 else am I supposed to do? Like I'm trying.

1:41:39 I'm meant to defend this person. Yeah.

1:41:40 And now I've got this. Like, yeah, no, that's fair.

1:41:43 He was acquitted of the yeah of it, I don't know.

1:41:47 So Bernardo hires a new lawyer upon Ken's resignation?

1:41:52 Yes, by the name of John Rosen. And he immediately turned the

1:41:56 tapes over to the police. Yeah.

1:41:57 So he did the right thing in my mind.

1:42:00 That's what Ken should have done.

1:42:02 His crisis of conscience. I don't really understand it.

1:42:06 Like, I, I know you're, I know what you're saying.

1:42:08 I get what you're saying. But he's a lawyer and he has a,

1:42:11 an oath in which he needs to and a way he needs to conduct

1:42:18 himself. And I don't think he met that.

1:42:19 Yeah, well, the judge decided he did.

1:42:21 Like they acquitted him of it. Like they said, it was a

1:42:24 difficult situation he was in, they reckon.

1:42:26 Like they've like he was trying. Apparently in the background was

1:42:30 actually as much as he didn't hand them over immediately, he

1:42:33 was like trying to find a way that they could be used to

1:42:37 protect his clients ability of getting a fair trial.

1:42:41 Yeah. And I, and I'm not saying I'm

1:42:43 not saying that because I agree with the situation.

1:42:45 I just, I'm just saying what I read.

1:42:47 Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, I think the tapes should have been

1:42:50 handed over immediately as well, but that that's his word of what

1:42:53 he apparently went on. Yeah.

1:42:56 So anyway, yes, we get to Paul's trial, I guess.

1:43:01 Well, a Malka's trial first Oh yes, occurred so obviously she's

1:43:05 got the plea deal. So it's not exactly a lengthy

1:43:07 situation, but she ends up being in July 1993 pleads guilty to

1:43:13 two counts of manslaughter and receives a whopping 12 years in

1:43:18 jail. So there's massive controversy

1:43:22 around this of, you know, the fact that her participation,

1:43:25 because by this stage, even the these tapes are known about.

1:43:30 So people are aware that she's more involved than what this

1:43:35 plea deal was based on. Now, the other thing we should

1:43:37 note here, obviously, that she was the plea deal only included

1:43:40 two counts of murder of manslaughter.

1:43:43 Sorry, because one, Jane Doe's stuff didn't come to come

1:43:47 around, wasn't known until the tapes were found.

1:43:50 Yep. But also, Tammy wasn't known

1:43:54 until the tapes were found. So there.

1:43:57 So this is the thing where OK, 12 years for two counts of

1:44:01 manslaughter, but in hindsight, she should also then be further

1:44:05 charged with Tammy's murder, let alone maybe a manslaughter one

1:44:10 there as well, if that's what you want, you want to play it

1:44:12 down to because she's facing up, but she didn't really face up to

1:44:15 that as much. And the Jane Doe where she's,

1:44:18 she's assaulted her as well. So there should be assault

1:44:20 charges there and rape. Charges.

1:44:22 Attached to that. So yeah, lots of controversy

1:44:26 around all of her sentencing, but when?

1:44:30 She was released from prison. What she'd got and done for

1:44:32 herself, well. Yeah, Yep.

1:44:35 So she left prison after the 12 years. 2005 she was released

1:44:40 from prison. She changed her name, actually.

1:44:43 Well, Paul and and Carla both changed their names, so they

1:44:50 called themselves surname Teal TEALE for a while there.

1:44:54 Yeah. Carla then distanced herself

1:44:56 from that obviously, when all of the charges came.

1:44:59 Down they were. She filed for divorce from him

1:45:02 after about 12 months in prison. Yeah, yeah.

1:45:04 Fair call. She is now known by Leanne

1:45:08 Baudelay. So she married a man.

1:45:10 I think his name's Stephen Baudelay.

1:45:12 No. Is that Cyril?

1:45:14 Oh, Terry. Terry Baudelay.

1:45:15 Terry. Yes, Sorry, you're right.

1:45:17 And he was the brother of her legal counselor.

1:45:21 No. So she did date the brother of

1:45:24 her council. His name was David.

1:45:27 And this is where like contradictory.

1:45:28 I mean I might be wrong here because I've what I've read is

1:45:31 that no, that guys name was David.

1:45:33 Okay. And yes, she did date him when

1:45:35 she first came out of prison and they, I think they saw each

1:45:38 other for a while, but it didn't last right then she met Terry

1:45:41 and then married him. And they've had two kids, yeah.

1:45:44 So they live a very relatively private life in they're back in

1:45:49 Quebec now. They've moved around a fair bit.

1:45:51 But well, to be honest, sorry to this day.

1:45:53 She actually separated from him in 2014, her husband, but it's,

1:45:58 it's, it's not been reported. They live such a private life

1:46:02 that there's no proof of them being together or not.

1:46:05 But last known reports, whether that was separated in 2014,

1:46:08 whether that's stuck and or when they got back together, I don't

1:46:11 really I don't know. But she has been seen at her

1:46:14 kids school and hanging out there and because and the which

1:46:18 I find revolting. But because she these girls were

1:46:21 1415 that she was assaulting, but she does not have any.

1:46:26 You know, she doesn't have to report herself as a sex offender

1:46:30 because she didn't have those charges put against her.

1:46:33 So she has no there's no legal reason for her not to be around

1:46:37 children. Nope.

1:46:38 Or have her own children. Like, like it mortifies me that

1:46:43 she's raising children. And her kids are like, in their

1:46:46 late teens now, so she'd be hanging around teenagers, I

1:46:50 mean. Would you let your child go

1:46:52 around at her place for a playdate or a sleepover, as we

1:46:54 were talking earlier? Holy.

1:46:55 Fuck no. And The thing is she's changed

1:46:58 her name and stuff. I mean you could be mistaken and

1:47:01 not know who she was. I think you could very easily

1:47:03 not know. Who she was that I just find

1:47:06 horrendous, yeah. You just don't know.

1:47:09 And this is the thing, you just don't know.

1:47:12 You don't know people. Nah.

1:47:14 So she's kept very quiet. There's been no more incidents

1:47:19 that we're aware of. But yeah, interesting woman.

1:47:22 She did volunteer at her kids school and then some parents

1:47:26 found out who she actually was and then that's.

1:47:29 Very vocal amount. She's there being there.

1:47:31 Yeah. To be honest, if you really want

1:47:33 to keep quiet though, wouldn't you just not do that?

1:47:35 Oh, for sure, for sure. You shouldn't, no.

1:47:41 So we jump back a bit to Bernardo's trial now.

1:47:46 So obviously Carla Hamaka was their key witness.

1:47:50 She sat on the stand for 17 days to give evidence against Paul,

1:47:55 which was all part of her plea deal.

1:47:57 So at this point though the tapes are out there and they

1:48:01 were used within the trial audio only and certain, the visual was

1:48:05 only seen by those who needed to to.

1:48:07 The jury? Not even other attendees of the

1:48:10 night that were only allowed to listen.

1:48:12 Yeah, there was a whole media band thing on this whole trial.

1:48:15 That is a whole thing in Canada that they have going on for a

1:48:19 lot of think. Well, back then they don't.

1:48:20 They did. I'm not sure if they still do

1:48:21 'cause I don't know how you would these days.

1:48:23 Back then it was hard enough with people smuggling newspapers

1:48:26 across the border from America who could report on this trial.

1:48:30 Yeah. Whereas let alone now where,

1:48:31 yeah, podcasts, et cetera, like let alone, you know, Internet

1:48:34 searches so people could find information.

1:48:36 Anyway, I don't know how they would manage it.

1:48:38 Yeah, I think it's changed, yeah.

1:48:40 But there was a very big media ban.

1:48:42 But yeah, also the tapes were so confronting that they didn't

1:48:45 allow public, you know, access to any of those.

1:48:49 But Carla did speak very openly at the trial and about what what

1:48:54 went on. So which to me like then this is

1:48:58 this is where like I guess it wasn't that clause in her plea

1:49:00 deal that where we've talked about the here in Australia is

1:49:04 quite often used that if if what you've put in your statement

1:49:07 isn't accurate, they can then still get you on those charges.

1:49:11 So. I read somewhere that her plea

1:49:13 deal was like ironclad. Yeah.

1:49:15 As in, I think there was even a clause in it that was like, this

1:49:18 is final. You cannot perpetrate any other.

1:49:21 Yeah, any other crimes in relation to this case.

1:49:24 Like it was, it was clearly watertight because they've never

1:49:27 pursued her any further or been able to pursue.

1:49:29 Her any further because then like she's perjured herself in

1:49:32 that in the trial she did speak about what went on and that hurt

1:49:35 and her and obviously her partaking in it because of the

1:49:38 video showed that. So which wasn't in her original

1:49:41 statements that she bargained the plea deal on.

1:49:44 So interesting. But yeah, 17 days she sat on

1:49:47 that, sat in the trial and did that.

1:49:50 And then Bernardo was sentenced to life in prison and life with

1:49:57 her in prison and 25 years without parole.

1:50:00 So technically in 2024. I believe yeah, it was December

1:50:06 2024. Yeah, he was due for to be

1:50:08 considered for parole for the third time.

1:50:09 Oh, sorry, yes, no, you're right, 'cause I remember it's

1:50:11 all saying that I'm going, I'm sure sorry 1919, I'm sorry 20/19

1:50:15 and. Yeah, there was a 2019 and

1:50:17 somewhere in between, Yeah, like I think it was 2023 actually,

1:50:20 and then 2024. Yeah, actually might have been

1:50:22 2022 and 2024, but every time he's applied to the parole

1:50:26 board, he's been rejected. He's considered a what's the

1:50:29 word they use or the phrase they use?

1:50:31 It's like a dangerous criminal or something.

1:50:33 Yes. And so the likelihood of him

1:50:35 ever actually gaining parole is extremely slim.

1:50:39 So even to this day, so recently he was actually moved from a

1:50:44 maximum security prison to a medium security prison.

1:50:49 So he's been assessed as over 14 times since 1999.

1:50:55 And one of them with the correction system uses to

1:50:59 determine an inmate is in the right, that they're in the right

1:51:02 prison. It's called a security

1:51:04 reclassification scale. And so with doing that, they

1:51:08 actually released it because of him being such a known criminal.

1:51:13 They were very transparent around the fact of why they were

1:51:16 moving him. They didn't because people have

1:51:18 been stuck. There's been such an outcry

1:51:19 about this whole case. They did release a report with

1:51:22 some bits that were redacted but fairly open public knowledge.

1:51:27 They did release a report on him so the public would feel

1:51:29 comfortable around the move, but I don't know if it did.

1:51:34 So the recommendation of him being moved had actually been

1:51:37 overridden 13 times prior to this, which to me says, well,

1:51:40 that's, you know, and maybe a hard no.

1:51:42 Yeah. That was keeping him in the

1:51:44 maximum security one. But more recently he was that he

1:51:48 was deemed as being that the significant risk wasn't there

1:51:53 anymore. OK, so apparently he's been a

1:51:56 little bit of a model, model inmate.

1:51:58 Yeah, because. He's fucking charming the pants

1:52:00 off people to get what he wants. There was, it was, There was a

1:52:04 report. Part of the report was there was

1:52:07 heavily redacted aspects of the report that suggested that he

1:52:12 that sorry he was, that he was actually more of a victim in

1:52:18 prison than a perpetrator. I've heard that, but that to me,

1:52:23 I'm like, well, that's just dessert stage.

1:52:25 Yep. So he's actually only when he

1:52:28 was in maximum security, he was actually released into sort of

1:52:30 more general population, like twice.

1:52:33 Yeah, in two different periods of time.

1:52:35 Felt the shit beaten out of him both time.

1:52:38 Yeah, but he's also been found to have contraband in his cell,

1:52:41 and he has also perpetrated a few things as well over the time

1:52:44 he's been in person. He made a ship and tried to stab

1:52:47 someone. Yeah, yeah.

1:52:48 The one part of it that was redacted that I don't think

1:52:51 should have been was that they did do a study, a test on him

1:52:54 called the Severe Sexual Sadism Scale.

1:52:56 We didn't get to see that. Didn't get the results of that.

1:52:58 Unfortunately. Which to me, honestly, the fact

1:53:00 that you even have to administer that or redact it and then

1:53:04 redact it says oh hell of a lot. Yeah, we don't need, we probably

1:53:07 actually don't need any more information.

1:53:08 Expression that no. So yeah, but in 2023 he was

1:53:14 deemed as being several responsivity.

1:53:17 There was sorry there were several responsivity issues with

1:53:20 him and they warned that his imprisonment should remain

1:53:24 imminent. Yeah.

1:53:25 So I think from what I heard in terms of his move from the

1:53:28 maximum security to medium security was because over time

1:53:33 he poses less of a risk to the prison population.

1:53:36 Yeah. And so the likelihood is he'll

1:53:39 be in prison forever. But he was able to be moved

1:53:42 because of other inmates, not because of.

1:53:45 He's gonna be out in the yeah, that's right.

1:53:47 Or be out in bloody society again, no.

1:53:49 They'll just want to make sure that he wasn't gonna be to

1:53:51 escape. That's right, because he is

1:53:53 still a risk to the community. Yes, absolutely.

1:53:56 He asked to be moved to this prison, though, because of the

1:53:59 facilities there. Yeah, he's like super into his

1:54:01 health and fitness and it's got like a world class.

1:54:05 Gym, there was a photo of him yeah in the the van like that

1:54:08 they actually got through that and he's still kind of look at

1:54:10 him and go like he's he's actually.

1:54:12 A decent looking guy. Which he's gotten quite a bit of

1:54:15 attention from those unusual women who think that writing

1:54:20 letters to serial killers and stuff's good.

1:54:24 So he he's had many a relationship in prison.

1:54:27 Got quite the number of pen pals, doesn't he?

1:54:30 Yeah, which? Even with me saying he's a bit

1:54:34 hot, this is fucking no way. Oh my God, no.

1:54:37 No way. Why would you write letters to

1:54:39 someone like that? Like it's just, you know, he's.

1:54:41 Like murdered and raped. People, even Carla or she was in

1:54:44 prison. So at first she had a

1:54:46 relationship with a woman whilst in prison for quite an extended

1:54:48 period of time. But the two of them broke up and

1:54:50 they changed prisons and then came back together.

1:54:52 But it was clear that that was over.

1:54:54 Yeah. She then ended up having a

1:54:56 sexual relationship, an intimate relationship with Paul's

1:55:01 cellmate. How the fuck does that happen?

1:55:05 Well, to see this is the, this is the thing that gets me with

1:55:09 Carla, I'm like, have you not learnt your fucking lesson?

1:55:13 Yeah, I mean, part of her release conditions is that she's

1:55:17 to be not communicating with that bloke at all.

1:55:20 But then she's gotten to him in another way by being with her,

1:55:23 with the cellmate, like as you, no.

1:55:25 No, I mean no, no, the cellmate as well.

1:55:26 It's part of her condition that she's not to have any contact

1:55:30 with Paul or the cellmate that she had a relationship with

1:55:33 whilst in jail, yeah. OK.

1:55:34 Oh God. Yeah.

1:55:36 Come on. And because this guy is a

1:55:38 hardcore like he's I. Couldn't remember why.

1:55:41 Why wasn't she thrown back in prison then?

1:55:44 No, this was whilst she was in prison.

1:55:45 Oh. Right.

1:55:46 No, yeah, like while she's in prison, somehow she was having

1:55:49 this relationship with this bloke.

1:55:51 Oh, I thought it was after she was in prison.

1:55:53 What the fuck. Like honestly I just couldn't

1:55:56 even with this woman. I cannot even.

1:55:58 No. So I mean, who was this person

1:56:00 she married? And I don't know, I my opinion

1:56:04 of her is that I think she's just as evil.

1:56:08 Agree. As Paul, I agree.

1:56:09 I, I listening to this psychologist talk about her, I

1:56:12 do agree with what she said, that what would she become a

1:56:14 murderer without Paul? Probably not.

1:56:18 Maybe not. I I can't guarantee that.

1:56:20 Maybe not. Maybe maybe someone else she

1:56:22 would have met, she would have taken down a bad path.

1:56:23 I don't know. But she clearly had a lot of

1:56:26 fucking going wrong with her, that's for sure.

1:56:28 I think she, as you know, she would have, she would have

1:56:31 injured, hurt something, some people.

1:56:34 Whether it was? Murder or not, murder or not,

1:56:37 who knows? Who knows?

1:56:38 Yeah, and I dread to think of her as a mother.

1:56:42 Oh, this is those poor kids. Do not.

1:56:45 I hope that there are people with eyeballs on that family,

1:56:48 like I mean. Child protection that have to

1:56:51 surely. I mean, but then she's not a

1:56:53 convicted sex offender, so. But but she is a.

1:56:56 Sex. But she is a sex offender.

1:56:57 I know, but then would she have been even alerted to authorities

1:57:00 because she doesn't have a conviction for that?

1:57:02 We could talk around this for ages.

1:57:04 Oh fuck yeah. Should we leave it there?

1:57:07 Anything else you want to add? I mean, there's, look again, we

1:57:09 say this every week. There's if you want to know more

1:57:11 about it. There is a lot of content out

1:57:13 there. Yeah, a lot of conflicting

1:57:15 information. So as we said, we've really done

1:57:17 our best to kind of keep on track just.

1:57:19 So how long we've gone? For I know.

1:57:22 Sorry, guys. Thank you very much for joining

1:57:25 us again. Next week we are going to be

1:57:27 bringing you a case from Ireland with a French person, actually.

1:57:31 Yeah. Sophie Toscan Duplantiere.

1:57:33 Oh well. Done, you said.

1:57:35 Thank you. I've been practicing.

1:57:37 We're gonna have to practice a lot.

1:57:39 Some of the names. Sorry.

1:57:40 Next. Week.

1:57:41 I'm gonna be fucked. Do that.

1:57:45 We'll call her Sophie. I'll.

1:57:47 Enjoying that E this episode Enough E it's enough for me.

1:57:52 So yeah, stay tuned next week for that one.

1:57:54 Thank you for joining us. Don't forget to do all the

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1:58:06 Oh yeah, we are. We are doing that right now.

1:58:08 On Emma, Thank you. Yes.

1:58:09 Thank you, Emma. Please do so at

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1:58:17 Excellent stay curious crime besties.

1:58:19 Bye.