Episode 36 - Allison Baden-Clay: Part 1

0:16 Welcome to another episode of Two Crime Besties. Everyone. Thanks for joining us today. Hello how it going? I'm not bad. I'm not bad. It's we've had a few technical issues this morning getting well. It's actually the afternoon well. Yeah, we're feeling we've had a day already. Yeah, firstly my camera didn't work, then we had some sound issues. Anyway, we're all good now, hopefully and yeah, onwards and upwards. The tech. We were just saying the tech is great. The apps and stuff that we use to record a fantastic when they work.

0:46 I'm calling it actually producer Pete's fault. Yeah, he's not. He's not here, and he's here. We wouldn't need him. Yeah, that's exactly right. But you know what? Pat's, Pat's to us. We got sort of figured out. Yeah. We don't. Maybe we don't need him. Maybe. Maybe not. Sorry, Peter. No, I wouldn't put that out. No, sorry. We appreciate all your help. Thank you. Thank you. Have you had a good week? Yeah, it's actually this week it's been a little bit lighter. I'm feeling like then I know we talked last week about, you know, just that overwhelming stuff, so much that like, I feel like just even getting that out to the universe, I'm actually feeling lighter, like, you know, and like moving through the complexities of life that it is.

1:27 We get that. Yeah, I've had had a really busy week this week. I feel like I said to one of my work friends, she was like, oh, what are you doing? I don't normally work on Wednesdays. And she goes, oh, what are you doing tomorrow? And I said, I've got so much on, I don't even know if I'm going to be able to do away. Oh, God. You know, I was literally booked from go to woe and there was not one second of my day that was unscheduled from literally school drop off. And then I had a school council meeting that ended at like 8:30 that night.

1:55 And I did not stop the whole day. Yeah, and then I was just just before you came, actually, I was looking in my calendar for next week, 'cause I'm like, I just don't think I can handle another week like like we've had. Yeah, but it's fine. Next week's actually easy and light on. It just happened to be that all those little. Extras. Come in, don't say no, but these were all pre planned extras that need. Touching wood somewhere that yeah, it's not gonna hit the fan. And it is better not hit the fan.

2:19 I'm just happy with things to plod along as they are. Thanks very much. Yeah. Oh God, yeah. I mean, yeah, I mean, I've had a a busy week. It's had, I've had a 12 hour day, you know, Wednesday and that sort of stuff. But like, yeah, it's just been a bit less. I don't know. I don't know a little bit. Less and I think I feel like we are now easing into the year more. I think so there's a few things that are dropping off in terms of like that I've, you know, I've ticked off the To Do List, which is just making life a lot easier.

2:44 Yeah. Including like this weekend being my son's birthday party. Yeah, sort of, you know, as much as like, you know, I'm really looking forward to to it for him, like having that. But it's kind of like, you know, and then I can take that off my mental. Load. Yeah, once it's over and done with, yeah, that's it. Yeah, once you've been through it. Yeah, yeah, it's been a it's been a good week and a relaxing, more relaxing week, but still busy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Very good. Yeah, very. Good. I'm looking forward to tonight because we're planning stuff for tonight.

3:12 Yeah, so we're catching up with we've, we've found ourselves in a very lovely group of mum friends at school and all of our kids were in prep together a couple of years ago. And, you know, you just sort of find your people and you really click and. Same sense of humor. Yeah, it's all. So that's all sort of happened. Drinking ability, yeah. That's not that's by the vibe, not really. And so we've actually decided to go to Tassie for a weekend, a long weekend. So we're actually going to get together for a really nice meal and I'm hoping a few cocktails or something tonight to organize it and book it all, hopefully, or at least organize it.

3:52 Yeah. So we, we decided on this because everyone in the group bar Meg loves an oyster. Yeah, and I'll take. With the the the fact that you're having oysters for the company and the wine. And the champagne, yeah, like Tassie produces some amazing sparkling. That's what I'm. Looking for? I'm there for that, yes. Yes, and sparkling wine with oysters. Oh my God. Oh, I actually can't wait. I'm prepared to like, fully get in there and Shuck those oysters for you. Oh, thanks. Just to keep the party flowing.

4:26 Sweet, I'm gonna hold you to that. Yeah, I'll announce that to everyone tonight. Well, that, guys, Meg has volunteered as tribute. Yeah, to Shuck all the oysters. Just not fucking sitting one of those booger things in my mouth. You've no, no, you don't know what you're missing out on. Have you ever actually eaten an oyster? No, I actually haven't. See. I see. So how do you know what you're missing out on? It's like. There's not ball in my mouth, that's what I mean. There's. Not ball in your mouth.

4:53 See that? Get that out of your head. It's like they're deliciously like creamy and fresh and oh, they're so good. I just love it with a bit of lemon or just is perfection. But we went to a lunch, I don't know, just before Christmas. Yeah. And we had them with like this vinaigrette that was just amazing too. So yeah, give them to me however you want. I will, I will, you know, down a few. Yeah, I know. My dad wasn't like, what is it, Kilpatrick with bacon and stuff like that? Yeah. I feel like Kilpatrick.

5:28 I mean, you know. Not the real way to eat that. No, I just feel like it's too much other 'cause that's with Worcester sauce. As well. Yeah, I think so, yeah. Or is have you seen those memes like those videos and stuff going around of people try to pronounce Worcestershire sauce? Yeah, I think it overpowers the flavour of the oyster. Uh huh. But then I actually went to a restaurant a little while ago and they had, it was like a tasting platter of oysters. So it had like two of eight tracking and one of them was like an oyster in a Mornay sauce.

6:00 And then it was like, you know, torched on top. Right. Oh my God, I'm salivating thinking about it. It was so delicious. Or maybe, maybe I'll have to give it a. Just one, yeah. And then if you don't like it, down a few champagnes and you. Won't. Oh, I care anymore. It'll be fine. I'm always in for a bit of a yeah. I'll I mean the girls weekend, even without the oysters would be this is it amazing? So I think it's gonna be lots and lots of fun. Debaucherous. It is better be, yeah. Go. That's exciting, something to look forward to, and we're going sort of a around your birthday.

6:37 Well, no, I'm claiming it. I'm claiming it. Yeah, I think it's my my birthday weekend anyway. That way I can justify, justify expense. I can justify whatever everything goes on it's birthday weekend. Yeah. And I was gonna claim it tonight with everyone and just say, by the way. Yeah. We're actually going away for my birthday. It's actually my well, I shouldn't maybe put the word delayed in front of it. I'll just claim it as my 40th. Yeah, let's do it as your 40th. Yeah, yeah. That's that's my thing, yeah, in my head, whether you guys are there for it or not.

7:04 And that says I am. Hey, guys, we're celebrating Meg's 40th. Plus a couple.

7:14 Yeah, good. Oh gosh. We're planning someone else's 40th too, so yeah. It's just mental block at the minute. Not not because I don't want to turn, no, just lots of other. Yeah, I'm trying to just mentally prepare like, you know, like plan something. It's the expense of it, like everywhere, the places that I've looked at that I'm like, oh, I think I'd like to have it there. Yeah, the minimum spends are astronomical. And then it. Used to be pretty much like, yeah, you put a bit on the bar and you've got the venue like.

7:41 It's not like that anymore. You've got like, especially if you want it on a Saturday or a Friday night, Yeah, anyway. Yeah, we'll figure it out conversations for another time. Yeah, that's it. I do have a couple of shout outs. Well I shout out for, well, I'm going to say I'm going to call it 2 shout outs today. So our delightful receptionist at work, she is sunshine in a human being. Her name is Joanna. She is so funny and so I just love her. She's the best. The other day I was walking into into work and, you know, stopped and had a bit of a chat and she said that her beautician, she got her beautician on to listening to us.

8:25 Oh yeah. And Joanna had recently had an appointment and they spent a huge portion of the appointment talking about us. And I was like, oh, that's lovely, thank you so much. And her and her beautician said that she loves us. So a shout out to Shawna, Joanna's beautician #1 you do a great job with Joanna because she always looks absolutely stunning. But #2 thank you, Shana. Love that. Yeah. Yeah, we love it. Too, I know again, we've had so many people like we had a few, a lot of TikTok comments come through this week.

9:02 We've had a bit, bit of an explosion, I think in our Beaumont, yeah, in our Beaumont content, because I'm sure people have seen in the news that that sort of resurfaced again, nothing's really come out yet. So yeah, if there is an update to be had, we will have it. But they're basically excavating the site that they've already excavated a couple of times before they redevelop it. Yeah, in the SO. Glad that they're doing that like and. I think we've said that in narrative, so didn't we? Yeah. Like it's they need to do.

9:29 This. Yeah, because they're sort of some like they were they were so long ago now, you know in trying to like pinpoint the exact point of where these guys were digging that they said they were digging out on the, you know, back when it happened. So I mean now that they can just have a free reign of the whole site, I think that that's what it requires, but it takes some time. Sounds awful, but I really hope they find them 'cause I just for everyone foreclosure for that. I know that that's, you know, their parents have gone, obviously, but you know, it'd be nice to know what happened to where they landed up.

9:59 It won't necessarily then give answers as to who, but I mean, pretty clear if it's on his site. Yeah, like, you know, we can't, you know, you can't categorically save with him, I guess. But it's a very. Good indicators. I mean, there's so, so much other circumstantial evidence that points towards him. Anyway, Harry, we're talking about Harry Phillips. Yeah. And they're excavating an old site that he owned and operated a factory. On and they've also linked him in terms of familial context, you know, like that there was he was like a brother-in-law of a family member like as well.

10:31 So he may have also had a little bit of more of an like they won't be able to do that. I would I would have linked him in any way back in the day, but now they have that it might make it a little bit more I guess an indicator of like the children knowing him and therefore feeling comfortable around him. Yeah, but just a familiar face so that they'd seen around maybe a family function, you know, something like that. So. Yeah, yeah. Interesting. We'll watch this space. If there is a proper update to be done, we will obviously do that for sure.

10:55 Yeah, yeah. Fingers. Crossed. Yes, definitely. Oh really? Yeah, so let's. Get into today's episode. Today we are covering the Ellison Baden Clay case. So this was this is something that I mean, it absolutely happened. I would imagine most people who are listening to this podcast would have heard of Allison because this case, you know, happened in her murder happened in 2012. So it wasn't really that long ago. No, And I'm sure people have at least heard her name or or have some aspect of this case, you know, in their memory somewhere.

11:32 Yeah, and even like internationally sort of a little bit because in in true crime world, I know when I was searching let's just for, you know, what other things were out there in terms of the information. There was a lot of like American podcasts that had done stories on this. And so one that I clicked on and kind of went, I don't think I should listen to that. I don't think I'll understand what this. Yeah, yeah, there was quite a few internationally have have done this case. So I mean we're obviously hoping to bring something a little bit different, I guess in conversation.

12:00 How we approach these topics, you know to that, but definitely it's fairly well spread. One of this story, one of the podcasts I listened to in preparing for today, they it was an American podcast. And the man said that, you know, he feels like this case is Australia's Scott Peterson case. Yeah. And it there are, it does bear a lot of resemblances to that. And that is a case that we are going to cover in the future. It's on our list. So yeah, it's keep that in mind. Yeah, it is it, you know, sort of along a similar vein, unfortunately.

12:31 Yeah, unfortunately, that's for sure. Before we get started, I think it's probably worth crediting David Murray. Yes. So he authored a book called The Murder of Alison Baden Clay. The byline of the book is all marriages have their secrets, which I mean, we all know that to be true, don't we? Oh, yeah. You never know what's going on behind closed doors, and that is never more evident than in this case. And what what has come to light since Alison's death? Absolutely. David Murray did an exceptional job in researching and writing this book.

13:01 I've been listening to it. I haven't quite gotten to the end yet, but I've obviously used other things in terms of research as well. But I mean, the way he writes about this, it elicits a huge amount of sympathy for Alison and the situation that she was in. But it also provides a lot of background and context to which I found really, really helpful because that was that was the stuff I actually found lacking in a lot of these podcasts. So that was kind of a little bit more about the research that I ended up doing.

13:32 So should we get into it? Let's get into it, I've got lots to chat. About Yeah So Ellison June Dickey was born on the 1st of July in 1968 in Ipswich so in Queensland, Australia. She was born to her dad Jeff and her mom Priscilla. Her dad was a, was he a firefighter, I think, and did house painting on the side and her mum was a librarian at their school, at the kids school. So, you know, really lovely family from everything I've seen. I mean you can see interviews with them on on like YouTube and that kind of thing.

14:07 And they just seem like really lovely, down to earth, genuine people. Ellison was second born in the family, so she had an elder sister, Vanessa, and a younger brother named Ashley. Very close knit family. And, you know, they sort of grew up in, I would say a fairly stereotypical early Australian, you know, you know, in their 60s and 70s, sort of a fairly typical upbringing. Nothing stood out. Nothing. You know, they just sort of lived their lives. And I know Allison had an absolute affinity for ballet.

14:41 Yeah. And at age 10, she auditioned for the Australian Youth Ballet. There were 250 kids who auditioned, and only 20 chose it, got were chosen. She actually didn't quite make it into the top 20. I think she was 21 or 22. Yeah. So they popped her on an alternate list and somebody dropped out or a couple of people dropped out and she actually made it onto the team or I don't even know how you describe that. Yeah, she was so dedicated to a ballet. I think I was reading somewhere or maybe it was part of the audio book.

15:15 She would practice for 20 hours a week on top of her schooling. So I know one of my work colleagues, her daughter does ballet and is really very talented. And one of the ballet schools that she was at, the expectation was that you would leave. You would do less actual school to attend ballet classes. Yeah. But I believe this model was a little bit different. And Alison was still attending a full day of school. Yeah. And then hours and hours of practice after school and on the weekend. That's. Dedication isn't it at.

15:47 A at an at the age of 10. Yeah, yeah, she. Must have loved it. Yeah, or you have to love it. Absolutely. And because she then travelled overseas, you know, she travelled to the UK, you know, with her ballet and things like that. And so she was considered very good. There was a point where she didn't make it to another level. And I remember reading about it and her sort of her response to it at the time outwardly, you know, because she had so much support from her beautiful family. You know, people sort of thought that she took it very well.

16:17 But apparently inside it really, it really hit her hard like that she didn't make it. And I can absolutely understand that. But all due credit to her family then in the fact that she had this resilience about, you know, to be able to carry on even though that was a real hard hit for her. Yeah. So yeah, I mean, lovely family way of being brought up in this absolute dedication to something. She was really someone who's of a really good standing and really good mind on her shoulders. Yeah. So I think by the time she finished high school, she wasn't in the ballet company anymore.

16:51 Yeah. And at the end of high school, she decided to apply for a gap year through the Rotary Club. And she was like, basically put on exchange, from what I can gather. Yeah. I think she went to Denmark. Is that right? Oh. Gosh, I didn't read about that. Yeah, So she went there for a year. She met who was a woman who became a really good friend of hers, who she then met up with later on. She'll be come back into this story a little bit later on. And she, I don't know, she just had a really great time moving it up over in Europe and travelling around.

17:23 They did different, they went to different countries and experienced lots of different things and I think that really ignited a passion for travelling her. Love travel? Yeah. Yeah. When she returned to Queensland after this gap year, she enrolled in the University of Queensland into an arts degree, majoring in psychology. And she also undertook some Japanese lessons. Yeah, during that time like. She became like somewhat fluent in about 5 or 6 languages like she's. I actually, I actually wrote that down.

17:54 She became fluent in five languages 'cause this astounds me. Yeah. And they're all really different. Yeah. Yeah. It was French and German. OK. I can sort of see they're similar. Ish. Yeah. Danish, Swiss, German and Japanese. Yeah, Japanese. This like steps out like entirely like, yeah, yeah. I'm, I'm impressed with anyone who can learn additional languages, particularly adults, I think. I mean, I watch children who do it on the daily and it flaws me. Kids who can like, literally talk to another child and, you know, say Mandarin and then turn around to the teacher and say, you know, speak to them in English.

18:27 Just and you're losing my mind. Little kids, little kids like, let alone adults. I just, I am floored by the brain of some people who can do that. It really impresses me because your brain isn't wide to do that in adulthood. It's a real different style of being able to learn. Incredible, Amazing. Definitely in a very intelligent person, yes. Yeah. She enjoyed Japanese so much and the and the culture and wanted to sort of immerse herself in it. So she ended up doing a year teaching Japanese, teaching English in Japan.

18:59 Yeah. And after coming back from that, she was 22 years old, and she thought, OK, it's time to really sort of knuckle down now, get myself a, a real job. A real job. And she ended up actually working at a tourist resort on Heron Island. So on the Great Barrier Reef, absolutely stunning part of the world. I actually didn't know exactly where Heron Island was, so I Googled it. Yeah. And the photos that come up, I'm like. Where are we going? Maybe we should do. A girls trip to Heron Island. Yes, please.

19:30 When she was there, she met a scuba diver instructor by the name of Ian Drayton. He was a former Australian Army. Oh, I think it was quite high up in the Australian Army. And they fell in love, you know, really, really quickly. Yeah. They, I think Ellison had like a six month contract or something to work on the island. And at the end of that I think she extended it for a couple of months, but then decided right now I want to go back to the mainland and, and really get my career going. Yeah, and settled down a little bit.

20:00 I mean, she would have only been like 20-3 at the time, but, you know, she was ready for that next sort of step in her life. So Ian actually moved to the mainland with her. So he gave up his like, imagine being a scuba diver, scuba diving instructor on the Great Barrier. There is no better place in the world. This is absolutely, yeah. He would have been living life, you know, to what his, you know, career was, was heading towards. And he decided to give that up to follow, really, to follow Alison, you know, back, to try to follow her dreams.

20:31 Yeah. So. Yeah. Yeah. That's love, right? Yeah, yeah. They rented a house in Brisbane and Ellison got a job at Flight Centre as a sales agent originally, so she was doing booking flights and all of that and hotels and all of that sort of stuff. We've all been to a travel agent and know what that entails. And Drayton started working as a real estate agent. So, I mean, he didn't really have a lot of training that led to a career outside the Army or scuba diving. Yeah. So he actually had a friend, I think who owned a real estate agency and kind of took him on.

21:05 I think he was actually quite good at it. He. Was quite good at it apparently. And like, but which is, I mean, I think that just says a lot about who he was as a person in that he was able to adapt, you know, and obviously like this wasn't his absolute skill set, but he was able to do it well enough to be able to succeed. And, you know, well enough where they bought their own home very short soon after that and then ended up buying a second property. I mean that between the two of them, they were doing really well.

21:30 And to think, I mean, this is what this was in the 90s, early 90s. I think they bought, Yeah, actually they bought their first home in 1991. Yeah. I wrote this down for $95,000. I was gonna say like the prices and not only the fact the prices but also like I mean, compared to us in Melbourne, I have to say, you know, Queensland prices are very different with houses like but still, I mean, still, I mean, anyone better buy their own their first home and then buy a second one not long after is very.

21:59 Impressive at that age. Like, yeah, so I think 18 months after they bought the home they were living in, they bought the investment property. It shows they really had their head screwed on their shoulders right? And setting themselves they. Weren't really setting themselves up. They obviously had a goal in mind and yeah, the year that they bought the house together, Ian proposed to Alison on her birthday. Yeah, and she accepted the proposal immediately. As we said, they've they've then bought after that they bought their second property, which again, I wrote it down because it, it blows my mind $80,000 they spent on their second investment property.

22:37 And you can actually, I saw photos of both homes which you can find online and they're beautiful, like they're really lovely Queensland style. Homes. Yeah, they're. Beautiful, Really, really nice in 1993. This is kind of where things take a little bit of a turn. In 1993, Ellison Dickey entered the Miss Australia Award pageant, and it was kind of coming to the end of its life back then. Because, I mean, I guess people's attitudes towards especially, well, actually I'm going to say youth and adult pageantry.

23:12 Yeah, in Australia, like the attitudes towards that we're changing and we were starting to really shift our views in terms of how we look at women in society and that and all of that kind of thing. No shade to anybody who wants to participate in things like that. I just don't know that there was the appetite from an audience perspective necessarily. Yeah, although this was a fundraising endeavour at the end of the day anyway and I believe that was Ellisons motivation to enter. That and I think also this thought of she loved being on the stage with her ballet and it was kind of an entry to that back into that sort of world of like putting herself.

23:48 She was kind of dipping her toe back in the water in terms of going. I loved that. Like where can I access that same sort of stage? Like I and that's what And so because there's a part of it which is about you've got to show a talent. So she could that's what she had as her talent was her ballet dancing and things. So yeah. No, it was more that idea of being on stage. And yeah, actually, I think definitely as well from a fundraising point of view. And that that was, you know, definitely a draw card, but it was more about being on the stage again and having that passion of hers met.

24:18 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, she wasn't Miss Brisbane, Yeah, in that pageant. So she. Clearly, like, you know, had a way about her. I mean, obviously those pageants, there's elements of it that I find a bit, but she had a talent. She had ability to speak well and draw people in. To be able to win a pageant like that and not to mention very attractive woman, I think. Oh my God, she was so beautiful. Yeah, so beautiful. Yeah. This kind of caused though a little bit of a souring to Ian and Allison's relationship.

24:49 I think he couldn't believe that she would want to be. Part of it, I think he found it, really. IK a bit off yeah so Allison actually ended up ending the relationship and moving out of the home they shared together yeah Allison took one house, Ian took the other and he decided to go back and work on the Barrier Reef yeah. And I think that's where like, you know, a lot of that relationship breakdown was in that they were just, they just had different goals in life. And, you know, and that's, you know, as much as you might be right for each other, you might not be the right time or the right, you know, place kind of thing.

25:19 And they just, they just couldn't get that to work. So which is sad. It is. Sad. Ellison moved on and started dating a few people, and she dated this dentist. Have you read about this? Yeah. Oh, my God. This in. This makes my blood boil. So he was in. He ended up being nicknamed by a friend's dickhead. Dan this dentist and what a fucking dickhead he was. Actually. You know what, Meg? Piece of shit. There's gonna be, they're gonna have to rate these pieces of shit though, I reckon. Like I'm tipping we get to a better piece of shit, a bigger piece of shit later.

25:52 Oh. Way bigger piece of shit. He's a piece of shit on a whole nother level. But just wait until we hear. This maybe we can call him Dickhead Dan level piece of shit. Yeah, just like from now on, we'll rate it on a Dickhead Dan scale like, you know. This is a This is a dickhead Dan Total, like absolute piece of shit, but nowhere near what's to come. So he offered to take her overseas to Europe for a couple of weeks. And when they go over there, she's they're standing at a train station. I think it was about to get on a train to go somewhere internationally, like I think it was a train trip to I don't know, I'm going to say Paris somewhere.

26:32 They were going far and he dumped her at the train station and then. So this is where her friend that she met in Denmark comes back in. Yeah, she called her friend was like, well, I've just been bloody dumped. I'm. Just stuck in Europe on my own. Yeah, and. She, her friend, they all they met up and then they saw Dick and Dan with another woman in. Prague, Prague, yes, like walking on the street, literally how crazy. Like, you know, in Europe, I mean, Europe's a bloody big place. Decide to ditch each other and then just randomly see him walking down the street and.

27:06 Hand in hand with another woman like literally days after he dumped Ellison. What a piece of shit. A piece of shit. Seriously, Dan. Yeah, I love that that obviously the two. And I love that she could laugh about it, you know, in that moment with her friend and have that like, that's yeah, good on it because that's all it deserves. Oh. Absolutely. And move straight on. Definitely, definitely. When Ellison came back to Brisbane after that, I mean, I guess you'd feel a little scorned or a little something about it because totally, she actually ended up contacting Ian and they had a little fling for a few weeks, but it never rekindled for good.

27:40 Oh, good on Earth. Go back to, you know, like, why not? Yeah, I'm all for that. Comfort, you know? You know what you're gonna get? Yeah. Alison was really making progress at Flight Centre at this time. So she'd actually gone from strength to strength and obviously her leadership skills and her personality and everything kind of worked together and she ended up becoming the office manager, I think originally at the Ipswich branch. And then she got a promotion to the state HR manager and then I believe after that, the national HR manager for Flight Centre.

28:12 So Flight Centre, for those of you who aren't Australian, is a really big. Change. Yeah, change travel agencies, yeah, and they're all around Australia, huge, like everyone just. Knows anyone not been to Flight Center at some point when we use them far less these days, like because everyone can do it themselves on the web. But prior to those days, yeah, you went to Flight Center and booked all your flights. That's it. They always had good deals. Yeah, yeah. Kind of knew what you were going to get when you went there.

28:38 Absolutely. I think that just goes to show how amazing she was and how good she was at what she did because to be promoted to such such a huge role and she was still pretty young at this point. This is in 1995. Yeah. No, just clearly impressive and very Yeah, yeah. Yeah, unfortunately in Flight Centre. So once she became the state HR Rep, she moved from the branch of Ipswich to their head office in Brisbane in the CBD. And at this office, she met a man by the name of Jared Baden Clay.

29:16 He was employed as a team manager. They were. So this is like going back now to the early days of the Internet. Are we talking sort of like, yeah, 1995. And so whoever the heads at flight Centre where we're like, right, we are going to capitalize on this Internet thing and we are going to set up a 24 hour call centre. Yeah. And people can just ring up anytime. We'll be able to book it online because you're not having to wait. And I don't even know how you'd book a flight before the Internet. Do you know how they used to do it?

29:46 God, there must have been like a system. They logged in. I must. Have been there must have been some sort of software like system that they used like. But obviously that had to be done. I don't know if that had to. I don't. Even how did the world work without Internet? If we're if we're struggling to conceive what that was like, imagine our children. They'll have no But life without the Internet didn't exist. Yeah, my brain can't even comprehend that. Yeah, anyway, for some some for some reason, no.

30:10 So they've set up this 24 hour call centre and he was employed as the the manager. Yeah, he. Was like the night. Manager night manager. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So they've met and I think Jared. He had a girlfriend at the time. But he fell instantly. No, they went, he actually set her up on a date with another work colleague of theirs and they ended up going out on a double date between so Jared and his girlfriend Allison and this bloke, another bloke from Flight Centre. We've never been named or anything, but they've gone out on this double date, like because and Jared supposedly was, you know, like, oh, you know, you're a great chick, you know, like meet my mate from work.

30:51 You know, we'll go out. Apparently during that dinner, Sparks flu between Ellison and Jared, between the two of them, OK, because he was a very charismatic, charming man. So they from that point, he sort of, you know, let yeah broke up with his girlfriend and the two of them started dating. So Ellison for a little while though, yeah, was contemplating whether or not to sort of keep going with this relationship with Ian because, you know, after coming back from that, I'll fated dickhead, dickhead damn trip and sort of sort of rekindling things a little bit with him.

31:33 But certainly not, you know, they weren't fully committed to one another or anything like that. And in this interim period, she's met Jared and she was sort of, I guess, seeing both of them for a very short period of time. And she went away on a weekend away with both of them over this period. And the first weekend she was away with Jared and she was, they were staying at a hotel. She left her clothes on the floor and she came out of the went and had a shower, came out of the shower. Jared had ironed, folded, ironed and put away her clothes.

32:09 And she thought, oh, wow, green flag. Yeah, I say red. I say red, red, red. For anyone who is thinking this is a green flag, it is not. And that sounds kind of intuitive in like in we talk about mental load and things with women. This is a red flag. This is the beginnings of coercive control. This is not mental load removal, no, no, this is him controlling everything. So then Ellison's gone away with Ian on, and I think she actually went back to the Barrier Reef to visit him because he was working at a different resort by that stage and stayed at the hotel that he was working at.

32:51 She did the same thing, took her clothes off, left them on the floor as a bit of a test to see what would happen. And she came out of the shower and her her clothes were still messy and on the floor. And she said that like that is what made her decision to break up with Ian and sort of pursue the relationship with Jared. Yep. And on paper I can see where she. Was in the moment. Oh. Absolutely. Absolutely. But now what? We as we what we know? No. No. No. It's a hard fucking no. Yeah, I you know what?

33:25 I'm just going to keep going because there are so many red flags that come up across the way and we are in no way victim blaming here. We totally understand why she did. What she did understand that initial thinking of that and, and look, you can justify all the behaviours and things. It's never that, it's never the victim's fault. Like in your mind you think these things are lovely and there's and that it's called love bombing. You are made to think that you are, that it is a technique unbeknownst probably even to the person perpetrating them.

33:57 They don't realize they're doing it. That's so innating them to do that. You think as the victim that you are being treated like a Princess and how you should be treated. But it's it's to lull you into a false sense of security. Also, like I've got a friend whose partner is whose husband is very, I'm going to say like OCD and I'm not saying that with like he doesn't have an official diagnosis, but you know, he's so neat and tidy and on the surface that's amazing. Like I often say to her, I'm like, oh, you're so lucky because he'll literally he can't have anything out of place.

34:35 Everything is like their house. Their house is Immaculate all the time. And she said to me, she's like, no. Comes with a level of stress. Yeah, it's. Stressful because she's like, I can't even, like, cut up something on the kitchen bench and he's there wiping around me, you know, he can't even stand that. Yeah. So look, I mean, yeah, yeah, that's that's a bit of a different. Situation and not to say that everyone who has OCD is using is is like or you can. Just do some no no. Using coercive control?

35:01 No, no. But I'm just saying like sometimes. These things that can be seen as, Oh yeah, that's really lovely, aren't always. No, yeah, that's a different one. Exactly. Different levels of things, for sure. Yeah. Everyone, everything's on a spectrum. That's it. Yeah. But this was just a little red flag that maybe, you know, unfortunately. Yeah, exactly. So Jared Clay was born in England on the 9th of September in 1970 to parents Nigel and Elaine Clay. He was the eldest and then he has a younger sister Olivia and an even younger brother Adam.

35:35 At the age of 2, the family moved to Zimbabwe because Nigel had a government job and I guess they had to move there for some some. Reason. Well, he was from there originally. Oh, was he? Yeah. Yeah. So that's where he was. He was brought up. So did he get reposted down there or? Or was he posted to the UK? Maybe when? I think more when Warren. Was born yeah Oh OK yeah in 1980 the clays moved from Zimbabwe due to civil unrest to Australia and they. Changed. Sorry, putting it lightly. Yeah, well. Yeah, they changed their surname to Baden Clay at that time.

36:14 Do you want to explain why this is it? This is fun. Oh, this just is the start of I think, yeah, we can get into it. So the reason they changed their surname is because they they were distantly related to a a man by the name of Lord Baden Powell, who was the guy who started the Scouts. So. So he was. So Robert Baden Powell was actually Nigel's grand great grandfather. Great grandfather? No, he was. He was Jared's great grandfather. Oh, sorry. OK, all right. I thought it was actually the further again.

36:54 Oh, God. OK, right. OK, all right. But yeah, basically, they partake in the whatever fame might be linked to that name. They they consciously decided to change their name from Clay to Baden Clay. OK, sorry, just just quickly, Yeah. Have you ever done scouts? Or my brother. My brother I did. Oh no. Was it Girl Guides? I don't even know what it was that I did. OK, my brother did scouts very briefly but my nan was hardcore scouts. OK, so as a hardcore hardcore scouty person, do you think she would have known the name?

37:32 She would have known Lord Kaden Powell. I can. I can actually categorically know that for a fact, OK. Because I'm like, to me that name means literally nothing. No, I could say but that was because she was, she was actually very highly thought of and very highly ranked or whatever. And OK, and that was in Victoria of like, you know, OK. And scouts goes like, is it all over the world? Yeah. Like so yeah, yeah, yeah, no, I do. I would honestly and look, and she's a lot older. I mean, my nan's passed away many years ago, like, so she's similar ish almost era to it.

38:02 Like to, to Lord Baden Powell. So yeah, I, I someone, I guess today. Yeah. I, I don't think you'd even know the name. But I mean, but if you could look at interviews with the parents, Jeff, particularly Annie and Jared as well, to be honest, anywhere possible that they could explain the Baden, Baden, Clay and Baden Powell interact, you know? Commonality. They would Baden Clay, not Baden Powell. Well, I think they wanted to. Well, Clay was their surname, so I guess they were hanging on. They weren't, you know, complete not a like narcissist, but there was A to them that was enough to link them in their minds and to bring that up.

38:47 In conversation, every point. Yeah, OK. It was a way of introducing it as a conversation starter. Yeah. Because to me, Baden Powell and Baden Clay are two completely different surnames. Yeah, like, I would never, even if I knew that Baden Powell was a Scout person, I wouldn't then in my mind know someone named Baden Clay and be like, oh, any chance you're related to Scout founder Robert Baden Powell? No, absolutely. But they found a way to bring it up at any possible chance. Yeah, yes, did. But did Jeff work for the Scouts?

39:21 Was he? No, I don't. Believe so. Not even to that level. I think, I think he, I mean they were involved in the scouts, but I don't know that he was ever actually like by naturally like paid by the scouts. I think he was. Like anyone Scout is, anyone is. Anyone. Well, I think well. Eventually tree based. Yeah, but eventually Jared was. Yeah, briefly. Briefly. Yeah. He couldn't succeed at that. Either, yeah, we'll get to that in a SEC actually. It's my disdain for the man coming out too much. No, no, please.

39:47 Disdain away.

39:52 So Jared went to school in Toowoomba. So they settled in and around that area again in Queensland and he completed a Bachelor of Business at the University of Southern Queensland. I think it was so not the same university that Allison went to. He was an Army reservist and he worked as an account. So he used his business degree and decided to do accounting, but he decided that wasn't for him. And he got a job at Flight Center to set up the call center. So we're kind of now at the point where he's meeting Alison.

40:26 So they've been dating. They hadn't actually been dating for all that long when Jared proposed to Alison and Alison didn't accept straight away. So we know when she was proposed to by Ian she said yes immediately. But when Jared proposed to her, she said give me a week to think about it. There's your answer right there. Isn't it? Yeah. Isn't it? But the fact, OK, I feel like if you're, if you're being proposed to, you're kind of being put on the spot. So I I get people saying yes in the moment because it's like it's.

41:00 Exciting. And it's exciting. You don't see. Like, there's a bit of pressure, yeah, but then dare. Say her saying can I have a week to think about it would have blasted his ego a fair bit too. Absolutely. And I, I just think for her, for her to have had the balls to say that at that point, yeah, that's that says a lot to me about who she was. Yeah. Like she was very sure of herself, I think. Yeah. By the way, I think it's also worth mentioning that up up until this point in their relationship, he was love bombing her.

41:37 He was like involved in every aspect of her life. He didn't want her to do anything without him. And whether or not, I mean, the fact that she said I need a week to think about it makes me think that that was already raising an alarm bell in her head somewhere. You don't say I need a week to think about it. If you're head over heels and there's no alarm bells going off, do you? So eventually Ellison agreed and so they officially became engaged. Now we need to talk about Jared's relationship with Mummy and Daddy.

42:13 And you said the words because apparently that's what he called them. Mummy and Daddy as a grown adult. We've we've talked about icks on one of, you know, one of, Oh my, that massively massive ick is a great huge. Ick my freaking way my 8 year old. Yeah, when he wants to creep me out, you'll call me Mummy. I honestly to go when I like first heard this. That's what he called them. I literally was like, in my mind, 7 and up because that's like what how old my youngest is. And I'm like, yeah, he's moving into that next realm of like adulthood that I can't even imagine right now, him saying that to me.

42:50 And other than if it's a bit of a mummy. Yeah, that's. Literally, that is. Literally when Lucas will do it with me, he'll be like Mummy, yeah, could I have a special treaty? Yes. And yeah, and he's doing it so he's looks little and sweet and innocent. Trying to like cute. Can I get what I want like? And he's eight. Yeah, he's not in his mid 20s. There's nothing cute about that anymore. Now like, because he knows, I mean, my youngest knows that I come back with that one of like before you ever finish that sentence, No.

43:19 Yeah, nice try. Maybe you're gonna have to try a different tact with me, boy. Absolutely. So yeah, no, that screens. It's just gross because. Apparently he also then, you know, everything got put past his parents. Every, you know, every decision was that was made, he would go to his. Parents on so much so that they're engaged like Ellison and Jared are engaged and he told his parents about this and they're like, well our wedding anniversary in like 9 months time falls on a Saturday. We think you should get married on our wedding anniversary.

43:56 And they did. Well, they did, but Allison didn't want to. No. I don't blame him, She. She she was like, well, no, that's weird, That's odd. Like we're not doing that. But then Gerard. Gerard is sorry, I keep saying Gerard because it's like the way it's written. Yeah, Gerard is like persistent. And I guess she just thought, oh, fuck it, whatever. It's we'll just do it that day if it's that important to you. But she was aware of this quite odd relation should be had with his parents, that he was very much still.

44:23 That probably, boy, that probably played into her. You're going to have to give me a week. Yeah, I think that's what I think, honestly, that's what was kind of playing on your mind was like, this relationship with his parents is a bit odd. Like, do I really want to be involved in that? And he's been controlling his brother and sister as well, like they, the five of them were, like I say, Allison and her family. They were close but normal. Yeah. And to a normal degree, yeah, then there's like. But then.

44:51 There's like this insular, Yeah, I mean, I'm, I'm not I, I don't think we're implying that there's anything. No, no, no, no, no, no God, no, no. But. It was like very insular and like to the exclusion of everyone else that they didn't really let people in. They were very just as a really tight family unit, but dysfunctional. Oh yeah, yeah. Yeah. So they got married on mummy and daddy's wedding anniversary and after the wedding they did a huge amount of travel. So that's something that Allison and Jared had in common.

45:26 They loved travelling. They visited Kuala Lumpur, the Maldives, Turkey, Egypt, Spain, like so many, many, many more countries as well. And they ended up in England in night. So we're in 1997 now. They sort of, at the end of all of this, travel around after their wedding, they ended up in England and Jared got a job at Blockbuster as a systems consultant. So this was the first time in their relationship that Jared actually had a job that paid more and was sort of more senior to that of Allison. She'd given up her job, obviously at Flight Centre to do all of this trouble because I think they were planning on travelling for over 12 months.

46:01 Yeah. And Allison just, you know, over in the UK just got sort of like an entry level office job. And you know, I mean, they were, they were doing. Travelling, they weren't so. Travelling, it didn't really matter. Yeah, he held it, held it over her though, that he, he had this amazing job and she, you know, she was relying on him for one. Time he could, yeah. Yeah, yeah, fucking piece of shit. They planned to travel to South America after this. And then I think after South America, the plan was then to come home to Australia and really start to set up their lives together in Australia.

46:34 And in order to travel there, they needed to take anti malarial medication. And there were two options. I believe there was one that you could take. Was it every day for a certain number of weeks before you had to travel or there was an injection I think that you could have just as a once off. So they opted to do the once off injection. Yeah. And the side effects of that for some people were anxiety, depression, hallucinations. And this can actually persist potentially post medication as well. Yeah.

47:04 And unfortunately, Ellison fell into that really, really low percentage group of people who have these like, horrific side effects. So she absolutely had all of those things. Apparently her hallucinations were like next level and that then drove the anxiety and it sort of spiraled her into a bit of a depression as well. Apparently this happens. These side effects tend to happen when people have a history of mental illness, whether it be diagnosed or not. So just whether amplifies those sorts of things?

47:38 Yeah. So whether or not Ellison had already experienced some mental ill health prior to this, I'm not sure. That's not documented or there's nothing sort of around there to suggest that. But I mean, the fact that she's had this reaction, and that's more commonly seen in people who have a past history of mental illness, possibly that's the case there. Yeah. Two weeks. So, yeah. So she became like, really withdrawn, didn't have the best time when they were in South America. Yeah, apparently by the time.

48:05 So they actually then returned to the UK before then coming to Australia. But when she returned to the UK, Jared took her to the doctor. And the doctor, in the doctor's report, it says that she was basically catatonic by this point and he's still schlepping her around South America. Wouldn't you have stepped in earlier and said, hey, like this is not OK? Like let's get you some some help here, Yeah. And get you seen by a doctor like. So, well, I mean, the doctor basic in the UK basically said you just got to wait this out.

48:34 Yeah. And there's not a huge amount that we can do. So Jared actually ended up taking a job. This is 1998 now. He ended up taking a job with the scouts in the Swiss Alps. Yeah. Doing. I don't really know. No, I didn't really find much about what he did. I was like, I, I don't know if he was like, hey, I'm a Baden something, something. I'm sure he brought it up plenty of time. Scouts, Scouts. I'm gonna do so. He was Doob dob. DOB isn't it? Is that the right 10? I have no idea. Oh, OK. Is it? I think so.

49:02 I know they go like this. Yeah, deep, deep. No. Is it 3? Is it? Or maybe that's hung games. We're so all over. This toes, yeah. I'm not sure if anyone's from the Scout 2. Or is it 3 fingers that they do it with? I know that was three Hunger Games. Yeah, I feel. Like it's 2. I feel like it's 2, isn't it? Let us know in the comments. Please tell us what we're doing. Yeah, yeah. What are we doing? What are we? Doing. I don't know why I remember that I. Didn't think to look that up actually, but OK.

49:32 So Ellison was doing some admin work with the scouts while he was doing this on a very part time basis. So she would have been bored as batshit, I think, because we're apparently we're of this place was stunning scenery and all of that, but there wasn't much around. No, it's in the Swiss Alps. There's like a little town and there was not much else going on there. See. Again, like wouldn't you have gone, Hey, you're not well, let's get you home to, you know, and background, family and friends, you know, in comfort of familiarity, all those sorts of things to get you better.

49:57 Meg, he's a scout. He's a Baden Clay Baden something. He's got to do his stuff, yeah. Yeah, he's important, all right. That is really important. Yeah. Scouts on a business. OK, so he actually ended up doing a nine month stint there. So poor Allison. She's recovering from this horrific state she was in on her own, isolated in the bloody Swiss Alps, which is probably what he wanted. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Yeah, I'm sure. He wanted so there was a directorship coming up within the organization and he applied for that and didn't get it.

50:35 But but his name, your name carried you that far. Well, I think his name carried him at least to the Smelps. In 1999. They moved home and Flight Centre rehired Ellison in a heartbeat because, you know, she obviously left on great terms. She was an incredible employee and they just wanted her back. Yeah, Drub applied for an online job with Global Online, which I think was the Flight Centre's answer to, like what is now Webjet. Yeah, but I vaguely remember that. But it. Wasn't quite ready to launch yet and I think there weren't all that many active Internet users and it wasn't getting the user ship.

51:21 And apparently Flight Centre spent millions and millions of dollars on this and then just let it go to the wayside because it just wasn't being used. So Gerard lost his job in that which everyone who was involved. In it was not. It's nothing to do with like his ability or whatever, no. No, I mean did he do anything to help? But who knows? In late 2000, Allison fell pregnant with her first child and Jared was unemployed at this time. Because this is around the demise of Global Online. Yeah. What did he do?

51:48 Do you remember what he did? This is when he started up his yeah, real estate. He went to his real estate license this. Is where he decided to set up a stock trading business. I didn't know about this. Oh. Yes, in the shed, out the back. So oh, OK, Oh. This is this is a good one. First daughter's born during this time. Yeah. So Ellison's on maternity leave. He would fuck off to the shed and trade stocks all day because it's really important. It's really, really important. OK. So don't forget that.

52:19 He's a man, all right. Their first daughter was born in July of 2001. And Priscilla Ellison's mom came over, you know, to help her every day or most days. And one day Priscilla was like tidying something up in the kitchen and she noticed a baby monitor, but the the receiver in the kitchen. Yes. And she was like, oh, what's said to Allison, you know, what's this about? Like, what, why, why is this in here? Oh, it's Jared's got the other end in the in the shed. So, you know, if I need him, I can just call out and he'll be there straight away.

52:51 And Priscilla's like, he can literally hear all of our conversations. Yes, what? That is fucking weird. That is like if Alison needed something, she could walk out to the bloody back and don't get in. There is very motive to that. Absolutely for sure. Yeah, for sure. I just can't even Yeah. Then 9/11 happened and all of the stocks, you know, the stock market went to absolutely shit. And so he basically. Lost. I'm sure it would have happened for him anyway. Yeah, but I mean, OK, that's outside of his control, but I don't know how fruitful it was.

53:28 Anyway. I think money at this point for them was a bit of a source of stress. Yes.

53:35 Then, oh, that's the other thing. Actually, I just, I, this just popped into my head. When their first baby was less than six months old, Jared went on a holiday overseas with his brother. What? Yeah, they just went on a holiday somewhere. Now they didn't have this. That the money bit is what reminded me, because, yeah, they didn't have much money. Like he'd already lost all of their money. Yeah, and she wasn't working. I mean she. Wasn't working, she was still on maternity leave. Yeah, and they had a less than six month old baby.

54:07 Oh my God, who the fuck does he think he is? Apparently because it was post 911 they got a good deal on flights. Right. Leave your wife and newborn at home. At home. Oh, honestly, he just couldn't have given a shit, could he? No, he was living his life. Yeah, that's him. Yep, that's exactly right. Yeah, he then I guess this is when the real estate boom really was at at its at the start, Yeah. And I mean, Queensland real estate really went from, as you were saying it was pretty bug and basement prices today.

54:47 It's still not. It's still not Sydney, Melbourne. Oh, no, no, but but, but it's still, you know, Yeah, it's, it's getting up there. Yeah. But there was an absolute real estate boom sort of starting to happen around this time. So around I think this is sort of we're talking 2002 now. Yeah. Apparently prices were going up year on year, like 160% stuff like that. So it's significant, OK. In terms of, you know, growth, Yeah, in the real estate market. So Jared decided he'd become a real estate agent because what others.

55:19 Oh, I'm not going to generalize about real estate agents. I was just about to say something really directly. Actually, I saw our favorite real estate agent yesterday. Oh, that's a completely different topic. Yeah. But so, OK, certain personalities maybe are attract more attracted to that they're. Don't get us wrong, we are sure there are good real estate agents out there. Decent human. What are you looking like that for? Why did you hear their names?

55:48 Look, I can't, I can't say you can't generalize and say all of them are the same. But I think it attracts a certain type of person, that vocation, as do many vocations. They attract a certain person type of personality, Yes. Is that fair? OK. Do you have anything further you'd like to add to that? Probably better not OK. Because unfortunately, at some point in time you have to deal with them probably. Absolutely. I mean, it's one of those things, isn't it? Yeah. In 2002 he was hired by an agency.

56:16 But this is so good. But he was like, if you hire me, though, you actually gotta hire my parents too, because. Because he had. This was like from to be a director of the real estate. No, no, no, no. This was before that. Are you kidding me? I'm not kidding. Oh. That's. Really this is this is at just a generic someone's real estate agency that he worked at said they had to employ his parents. Now the reason his parents needed a job was because he had they had invested their retirement with him when he was a stock trader and he basically lost all their money.

56:53 So then.

56:56 So what are they being employed as? Like agents? Yeah. So basically it sounds to me like what they did was they basically employed Jared and then he. Like kind of had his team. Kind of had his team and his parents were his team. So his parents would go out, get the leads and then he'd close the deal because he was such a big man, you know, he'd get it all sorted. Right, OK. That he was actually quite successful. Smarmy. Yeah, start with their. Like, I mean, people were charmed by him because he was charming.

57:28 Yeah. And he, he then decided, God, he's a piece of shit. He then decided that he would open his own Century 21, which is a real estate agency franchise. He literally opened it next door to this company that he he had worked for. Now, this company that he had worked for, they taught him everything he knew. Yeah. He, he wasn't a licensed real estate agent before he started working for them. He trained with them. He got all of his licensing and certification while he was with them. Yeah. And then he fucking fucked off and opened a business next door.

58:04 Yeah, I, I read a thing where the guy who employed him there, he basically said he's like, look, we fully expect people to do that. That's fine. We we understand that that's just part of business. Yeah. And especially in the real estate business, a lot of people have aspirations to go on and start their own businesses. And that's fine. Yeah. He's like the what was the kick in the teeth is that he literally opened the business next door. Yeah, he's, he's. It's just who he was. He's. Just an ass wife he's.

58:31 Yeah. Yeah, the Century 21 I think was doing all right. Yeah, even right from the get go. But we are in the middle of a real estate boom, so you would hope that they'd be doing OK. Yeah. By this stage, Allison's pregnant with their second baby. She's having some anxiety, some panic attacks, so much so that she'd gone to the GP to seek some assistance with that in terms of medications. She was also seeing a psychologist at the time, so she was doing everything she could to try and help herself. The GP prescribed her Zoloft for her depression and that was really working for her.

59:08 And can we say Jared at this point had already openly said he didn't think that depression was real? Yeah, Yeah. He thought that it was all made-up and that she just needed to get. Over it. Total piece of shit. Yeah, just get over it. Just pull yourself out of. It yeah, you just sort your shit out. Yeah, well, she would have by this stage now, had two kids. So their second daughter was born in 2000, December of 2003. She would have been, I bet, doing everything on her own. It would have been like she was a single parent, right?

59:48 You know, he he didn't. I don't know. She would have been doing all the work, Yeah, with the children. I am absolutely sure of that. Yeah, by the time she was pregnant with her third baby, he was having an affair at that point. So he was not engaged in the marriage, you know, at that point. And we don't know. We act like there is. It's very, very possible and very likely, although not substantiated, that he probably had affairs before the ones we know about. Absolutely. And I'm sure, I'm sure he did.

1:00:24 Yes. Yeah. Asshole. I mean, Ellison kept a diary. And I remember one of the entries, I think it was around the time of her second daughter's birth, she wrote something about being. And this really got to me because I thought, oh, my God, I bet you're not about. She's like, I'm just this fat, disgusting, smelly pig. And I was like, oh, my God, yeah, who would even like? He must have said that to her. This is it. I think a lot of that language is being used by her, by him towards her. I mean, she was writing in her journal things when she didn't know that that he was having affairs.

1:01:01 She was writing stuff in her in her journals, like, like, if my relationship ends, it will be because Jared has had enough and doesn't love me anymore. And of all the crap I have dished out to him over the last 13 years, like and like. So she was blaming herself entirely for the breakdown of what was going on in her marriage because of like her mental health, which if he had just supported her through those things instead of going off and having affairs, like, maybe that would have made a massive difference.

1:01:32 But it's. Like if he didn't have her at 100% he just didn't want. Her, no. Well, she another one she wrote in general was if only I had given more sex and put some more work into our marriage and not just being a mother. Oh my God when when you have a baby you literally have zero capacity for anything else. And if your if your. Significant other expects intimacy on that level. At that stage of your life, that is really fucked up. You don't have capacity for that. No, but I mean she's the one in the home doing all those things for their children.

1:02:09 He's the one going outside of the home, working, etcetera. In this scenario that you know, for her to know what's going on whilst he's out of the household. He knew what she was doing on the day-to-day. She didn't know what he was doing on the day-to-day. He's coming home like going well now you need to, you know, fulfill my needs and you're not. But he didn't understand what was going on for her at all. And then what did he give a? Shit, No. No he didn't. No, he didn't want to know. He wanted to expand the real estate business.

1:02:39 Mm hmm. So much so. And by this stage, look, I think his parents had kind of had enough as well. So they bought into the Century 21 franchise when he opened it up. Yeah. And then, but by this stage, sort of we're talking, I think 2000 and 6:00-ish now. Yeah, his parents decided I'm, I'm guessing they wanted to retire. So they basically sold their share of the business to two other independent parties. Yeah. And these new partners because unfortunately for them didn't do their due diligence and check the finances or or do any checks and balances I. Think he'd cooked the books a bit anyway.

1:03:17 Did he? Oh, that doesn't surprise. Oh no, he he definitely did when they when they had their meetings. Once. Oh yeah, they'd become, but I think. He's been doing that already even before. Yeah, OK. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. And they didn't really check the financial statements or have them properly checked out independently verified or audited or anything like that. Yeah, they kind of went in. I mean, he obviously probably charmed them, too. And they were like, oh, yeah, this guy will be a great person to be in business with.

1:03:42 Yeah. He became increasingly controlling of finances, not only within the business but at home as well. So Ellison didn't, by this stage, didn't have Open Access to their money. She had to ask him for money for things like groceries or clothes for the girls or whatever. And so again, we're just escalating this controlling behavior. Yeah, year on year. Yeah. And so within the real estate company that he was running, that he was basically from all accounts, he was quite a good agent and a good selling agent.

1:04:16 And that's what he was good at. But actually running the business not so great in terms of financially managing it. He he was employing people to do things that really he should have been doing to save the company money. Because at the end of the day, what I think what he really liked about this whole thing was that he liked the show of it and he liked to be part of like, you know, go after conferences and having it. Oh yes, I'm the owner of that company, like kind of bullshit. And you know, a flashy, flashy, but what actually needed to happen to have that that company succeed?

1:04:48 That wasn't his concern. Like, we're sorry, there was a point there where this this company was running, but on the run, the smell of an oily rag, basically because there was no one doing the stuff that they, well, that needed to happen to actually put any money into this company. Someone was saying that around this time, most real estate agencies were literally rolling in money. They they were making insane amounts of money, Yeah, yet. He just wanted to have the notoriety of that, not the actual like, hard work that it takes to run a business, whether it's, you know, a business that is turning over lots of money or a business that's struggling to make money.

1:05:27 As an owner of that company, you need to be running every bit of that and being on top of it all. And he was not. He wasn't across no. In 2008, he, well, we actually don't know the exact start of this particular affair that I'm about to introduce to the story, but in 2007. Yeah, sorry. Yeah, 2008. You're right. It was when it started the the affair started in. 2007 Jared hired an assistant at Century 21 by the name of Tony McHugh. Yeah. Now she, I don't think she was a real estate agent. I think she was literally doing some like admin type work within the company.

1:06:09 And by August of 2008, their affair started. I think there is a bit of, I don't know the timeline, there's a bit, I've read different things so, but I think that's generally I. Think you started because she ended her marriage three months into their affair. Yeah, the her marriage was already on the rocks. And so they sort of started talking about this, but both their marriages were rocky. Of course, this is what they kind of connected over that. Yeah. I'm really. I think I'm gonna end up leaving my partner.

1:06:35 Like, it's kind of how they bonded, like, you know? But he actually did. Leave. She had every intent. She was speaking her truth in that. Whereas fuck stick Jared actually was saying that just to lure Tony and he had no intention of leaving his wife. He had no love for her either. I don't believe. But that was not, you know, that's not yet. That's not what the show was that he wanted to have in the background. So yeah, no, from everything I could see of that, she yeah, she categorically marriage wasn't working and ended her marriage three months into we starting an affair.

1:07:09 With the understanding that Jared was gonna do the same. Because he was based, he was saying to her constantly, I'm gonna leave my wife, I'm gonna leave my. Wife. And all that sort of stuff. I think by the end of 2008, people in the office started noticing that there was definitely something going on there. They. Really didn't hide it well at all and I don't know if they intended to. And for Tony she wasn't doing anything wrong, but at this point she'd ended her marriage. She was now seeing another man.

1:07:31 Yeah. I mean, not to say she's not at fault in that she knew Jared was married. Yeah, I think there's some accountability there for sure. But she wasn't the one sort of stepping out of her marriage at that point. She had done what you should do absolutely in the marriage if that's not where your your love is. Agreed. Just really quickly, we we didn't mention that Allison actually had their third baby in September of 2006. So yeah, Jared's having this affair with Tony. Well, Allison's at home with a like a one year old, a three-year old and a 5 year old, yeah.

1:08:04 Yeah, yeah. And I mean, from all accounts, she was not the first affair that he had. There were many before during. And after well, well, not after well, who knows? Prison's a strange place. So in June of 2000, Oh, good one. Well, we can only. Yeah. June of 2009, Ellison. So, yeah, Ellison had no idea that this affair was taking place, but it had persisted. So starting in 2008, middle of 2008, by middle of 2009, Ellison is absolutely noticing that there is something really, seriously wrong with their marriage, and she's wanting to fix things.

1:08:46 So Allison's seeing a psychologist at this time. She's still actively managing her mental ill health. She's still taking medication, taking the Zoloft. She's still regularly seeing a psychologist and checking in and just making sure everything's, you know, tracking along the way. It should be. Yeah. Her psychologist recommended, you know, she's obviously talking to her about all of this stuff and how she's feeling with in relation to her relationship with Jared. And the psychologist actually suggested that they try some marriage counselling.

1:09:21 How did Jared feel about that? Oh. No, no, it wasn't his. Wasn't his thing. Turns out not his cup of tea. Because if you go and see a psychologist or a counsellor, they. Might see who you are. They might. And especially when you're there with your significant other, you can't bullshit. Well, you can bullshit to a. Certain point, although he would have thought he could. Yeah, bullshit. And he was smarter than everyone, let's be honest. Just ask him by April of 2010. So I think he attended a few of these marriage counselling sessions.

1:09:55 I know Allison turned up a few times and he wasn't there. He just never showed up. But she still persisted through it and was working on things because, as you were saying before, she thought that the marriage problems were her fault. So she was obviously taking this counselling from the perspective of she needs to improve things and she needs to do better, and she need, you know, she was taking all of the ownership. Yeah. Would have delighted him no end. Oh, it's exactly what he wanted. Like she can feel shit about herself because I've got nothing to feel shit about.

1:10:24 Yeah, I'm doing my job over here, bringing in the money or whatever, fucking anything. He wasn't. No, they were living in a fairly affluent part of Brisbane, but they didn't own their house. They were renting. They were like literally the shittest house on the street kind of thing, you know, on the nicest St. sort of thing. They he he purposely put himself in these positions of like, you know, to look good, but he didn't have really what he was trying to show. Like he wanted the beautiful wife on his arm, you know, but she wasn't good enough.

1:10:53 Make sure she feels like shit, you know, in private but on show for everyone else, absolutely. Piece. Of shit. So by the April of 2010, Alison wrote in her diary that she felt like things were improving because she was making more of an effort. I think like in terms of intimacy, she was making more of an effort in that arena, which obviously pleased him. In May of 2010, Jared and his business partners attended a real estate conference that I believe was Interstate and the business partners were absolutely gobsmacked when Tony McHugh rocked up.

1:11:33 But she actually rocked up on day two of the of the conference. And on day one, Jared had actually had sex with another agent from another agency. Yeah. And then Tony gets there, and then he's fucking her. Yeah, apparently they're like sitting at the same table or something, or within this, within the same room. Obviously with the conference that this other woman could, it was very obvious to everyone in the room that they were a thing, that Tony and Jared were a thing. And so she basically went oh, oh, OK, I've and backed off like kind of thing.

1:12:18 Because she was like, oh shit, I've fucked a married like a mad guy or somebody who's attached. Yes, yeah. Oh. That poor woman. Oh yeah, yeah, that's not even his wife. It's not even his wife that's but then he he. It's not like that was the first time he cheated on Tony either. God. No, God. No, no, no. In August of 2010, Jared told Allison he didn't love her anymore and that he wanted to leave her. Yeah, and Allison blamed herself for this, which is evident in her diary entries, which we've kind of touched on.

1:12:51 So another thing she wrote in a diary, men need sex and want to win and need to be the centre of attention. Women work the hardest in a relationship and after they've had kids get shoved aside. Oh my God. I've actually written down a couple of quotes as well. Different ones though, but just as hard hitting. Yeah, I wish we could rewind to before we were married because that was when he was bombing her and then lovely to her and doing everything for her. And now it was the absolute complete opposite of that.

1:13:18 Yeah, she also wrote. I hate it when my weight bulges over my pants. And you look photos of her. I'm sorry there is not a scaric of a bulge. She actually had a really beautiful figure like a. For one who's carried three children, but even done all that, like that's the thing, you wouldn't have even picked that because she was, I mean, she had a ballerina frame. She, you know, that she clearly was able to bounce back very easily from pregnancies, you know, but that's how he made her feel. That wasn't how she.

1:13:47 So like maybe when she sat down, like a bit of a tummy hangover jeans or something like hello, hello. Seriously.

1:13:55 Yeah, he can go fuck himself. So Jared actually put a dating profile on a website now? Do you remember his name? What about this? Yes, yes, yes, he called himself. Oh, sorry, I didn't write it down. Not as good as I actually think's husband, surely. Oh no. But he called himself. It was a fairly normal name. I thought I wrote it down, but I don't think I have. I may have. Like, Oh no, Overland. Oh, I don't. Know this, it is overland. That was well done, no? Sorry. OK. So that that's a whole persona that he used, Yes, in real estate.

1:14:26 Yes. Oh God, what did he do with that whole Daniel overland? Yeah. Oh, something like. Something like that. But anyway, so he also set up a dating profile. Oh, now I do remember reading. All that. Well, sorry, yes. And on the dating profile, he wrote as like, I think you can put like essentially a tagline. Yeah. And his tagline was married, but don't want to be what? Mm Hmm. Oh, let me. OK, All right, so let me just think I'm scrolling through these websites and like, oh, he's a nice looking man.

1:14:55 Because he wasn't a bad looking bloke, you know, knowing what I know of him, God, no. But if I didn't know anything about him, I'd be like, OK, all right, not bad, you know? OK, now let's look at his profile. That's going to make you want to fuck him. Yeah, no. And it wasn't like it was a nationally medicine like people seeking out affairs website. It was just like a normal dating website. God, who thinks that that's what's going to attract? That's attractive, but it did because he met people on that site.

1:15:25 Who are these people? Yeah, I I don't know that's. Just so wrong on so many levels. If you don't want to be married, people, don't be married. Yeah. Like really, you can't have your cake and eat it too? Yeah, if you've if you meet someone who's happy for you to go outside the marriage, like in terms of that stuff. Whatever. Oh, but haven't you heard? Open marriages are out now. Monogamy's back. So. So it should be. Yeah. But if that's what you choose between consensual people, whatever. Yeah. But to openly in that sense, put it out there like, I'm married and she doesn't know anything about this, but I'm gonna, I'm gonna meet other people.

1:16:02 Yeah. That's just rank. I know. So unattractive. Yeah. Oh, yuck. I think around that time when he was setting up the profile as well, Tony had basically said to him, unless you're going to leave, Alice and I actually can't be in this anymore, and they split up. Yeah. For three, just going back for three months. So who decided that open marriages are out? Who? Who? Makes that decision. I was listening to it on I think it was like on Mama Mia out loud or something. And I think, I think the reason they say that is because, you know, like in TV shows and stuff for a while there, for probably years actually.

1:16:35 Now, yeah. It was kind of a bit more accepted that maybe some people engaged in those kinds of things and it was just something we talked about. But now, apparently all of that's now moving back to monogamy and. So like, media kind of decide these things. Yeah. OK, cool. Just trying to work out what. Yeah. Cool. Yeah, cool. Who do I need to consult? Yeah. Where am I going? So Tony and Jared Reid kindled their romance after three months apart. Yeah. Now during this time, so I think Ellison had found out about the affair.

1:17:05 Yeah. Said Tony needs to fuck right off and leave Century 21. So she did. Well, he also, it was also the partners were also saying to him, you need to get rid of people who are not like you need to fulfil some of these roles rather than but paying other people to do these roles. The partners were like you cannot be in a relationship. With there was. It's going to end badly. Yeah, there was two parts where it was like you need to do the job yourself that she's doing and at the same time you cannot be working here with her having an affair and etcetera.

1:17:33 Like it was all like this isn't on so many levels not working. You need to fix it. So they that was it was both financial as well as the perceived stuff that was going on. Oh. Yeah, yeah. So Ellison ended up coming to work. So by this stage, the partners know that the business is in like pretty dire financial situation. Yeah. And they're in. Was it? So was it the business that was in like $1,000,000 worth of debt or was that personal debt to Jared? Oh, I think it was. Both like a combo of the two I think.

1:18:08 That the only stuff he had was the business OK, because they didn't own property. No, they didn't. So they didn't own mortgage, but so I I dare say it was business, the business that was leaking the money and yeah, but. Well, I know he tried to. No, he had borrowed money from like, friends and family too, to try and keep the business afloat. Yeah. He'd actually borrowed some money back again from his parents, too, from when they divested their. That's true. Their shares in the company. Yeah. So.

1:18:36 Yeah. All right. So now just can I just clarify? Sorry. So because at this point that he brings Allison in as well to work at the company because it's a good way of saving money for the business in that they have her doing some of these roles rather than paying external people. Because I mean, it's a bit of a tax write off all those sorts of things, stuff like that. But was she also still back? Was she back at Flight Centre at all? No, no, no. OK. She didn't go back there after having. Children she didn't know.

1:19:02 OK, cool. No worries. So. Allison was doing office duties like she and she was really, I mean, she was such a clever woman. She was like trying to get their finances back on track and like get the office processes and procedures all in place. She was doing like, everything, honestly. And I, I just want to flag this as potential part of motive for later, OK? I'm, I'm really curious to see what you have to say about that. OK, let's let's. Yeah, we can park it now, but I just want to flag that, yeah.

1:19:37 So in Allison's mind, Tony and Jared were no longer seeing one another. Sorry, no, she didn't even know about the affairs at this point. Did. He no. So when she did find out, he did call, he did call it off with with Tony, but it was only very briefly. Yeah, so it must have been. Because she was then she and look, it sounds like she, Alison became a little bit controlling, but I think rightly so in that she was like, OK, I'm now aware of this. I think was a friend told her as well that this affair was going on.

1:20:13 Oh yes. Yeah. So she then said she went to the, she was again back to see a psychologist, wanted to save her marriage. And she, they put in all these sort of rules, I guess, around her, and she was able to have access to his phone, you know, to check because he promised her that the affair was over. It wasn't. It wasn't. But yeah. So yeah, he did sort of call it off briefly. But yeah. So she had access to his phone then. And and being able to ask him questions each night, they would have 15 minutes where she could ask questions.

1:20:40 So that that gave her a period of time. It was only brief 15 minutes to get all that stuff out that she was feeling or ask questions and find out things, you know, about what his day was or whatever, to know what he was up to. But that time, then the rest of the day couldn't be her playing all that stuff out through her, you know, brain. She could save it all up for those 15 minutes, get it out of her system so they could move forward as a married couple without that lingering stuff. Yeah, but which I?

1:21:04 Don't know if that's a great idea. Alison Well, look, the the psychologist actually says to this day she she actually admitted in court she doesn't think that was a good thing for her to have done. Yeah, but I mean, you live and works for different people. It works for some people, doesn't work farther. Yeah, but Gerard, Gerard and Tony. So Allison and leave work at leave the century 21 at about 2:33 o'clock to go and pick the girls up from school. And then Gerard would go and have a meeting off site and go and hook up with Tony at that time, like, well, Allison was off picking up the kids from school.

1:21:38 Like he's just an asshole. But he also set up then because Allison had access to his phone now and thinks he set up a fake e-mail account. Yep. So they stopped texting each other. They were emailing each other and using this other e-mail account. And he would only call Tony from the landline phone at work. He'd never call her from his mobile. Yeah, so he was still, you know, very deceptive in his actions of. Keeping this affair going, You know how you were saying that Allison had like the 10 or 15 minutes or whatever it was every night to have a chat with him and ask him any questions about the affair?

1:22:10 I actually wrote down a question that she supposedly asked him. I thought this goes to show her state of mind at the time. She wanted to know every single detail. She wanted to know everything. So much so that one of the questions she asked him, and she'd written this in her diary. Yeah. Was did you put the seats down when you had sex in the car? Like that is the level of detail she wanted to know about the affair. Now I can see, you know, I'm sure some people probably want to know nothing about it and just to if they're going to move on, move on or I don't know, but I think I'd be the same as her, I'd want to know.

1:22:45 Everything, well, I think that that's that that's really heartbreaking because what she was basically doing was comparing herself to her and doing the whole like, because I'd probably do it this way. Does he like it the way she did it instead of how I would do that? You know, that's to the level of, I mean, her own way of comprehending all of this and being able to in her mind think she's going to fix it of like, you know, I've got to meet those standards. I've got to be what she was. That's what he wanted.

1:23:12 I've got to now be what he wants. And that's. You should never have to change yourself to please a man No ever. She was enough. She was. She was more than enough. Yeah.

1:23:30 Hey everyone, we're just coming in to let you know that we've decided to actually cut this episode into two. I know. I think at the end of our previous episode we were like, oh, we're not going to do any. Our next Alison Baden Clay, that's not going to be a two-part of it. Turns out when we actually recorded this as one block, it was nearly three hours long. Yeah. So we have decided for the interests of everyone's ears, we're going to cut, cut it in half. And stay tuned next week for Part 2. Yeah, I think we've basically cutting off here where we've just discussed all the back story of Alison and we're gonna kick off next week talking about from when she starts, she goes, she disappears.

1:24:07 So we'll come back next week and address all that, the goings on for that. Yeah. So that will be a a clean cut of between the two episodes. Yeah. Thanks Meg for finding a good place to stop for today. Thanks to everybody for joining us today. Make sure to follow us on all the socials and if you'd like to buy the coffee, you can do so at buymeacoffee.com/two Crime Besties. Excellent. See you next week. Stay curious. Crime besties. Bye.