Episode 35 - Snowtown/Bodies in the Barrels: Part 2 (Includes Lucy Letby Update)

0:15 Welcome to crime Besties to Part 2 of our Snowtown episode.

0:19 So just really, really quickly, before we even get into

0:21 anything, if you haven't listened to Part 1, please go

0:24 back to last week's episode and have a listen because it really

0:28 sets up everything that we're gonna talk about today.

0:30 It's really kind of important. Kind of essential, yeah, Unless

0:32 you don't know who these people are that we're talking about.

0:34 Yeah, we're not even gonna do much of A recap because

0:37 otherwise this episode will literally be hours.

0:39 Oh, we could talk for days on this.

0:41 Totally. We definitely could.

0:42 So just really quickly before we get started in to the Part 2 and

0:46 all of the the bits and pieces that people are probably hanging

0:49 out to hear. Yes, recently in the media

0:51 there's been a lot of chatter about the Lucy Letbee case and

0:56 we just thought it might be timely to sort of mention,

0:59 mention it and mention what we think maybe.

1:02 So we covered Lucy Letby. Was that episode like 4?

1:05 Yeah, it was really early on. So you and I really got into the

1:09 Lucy Letby podcast. Yes, back when it was first

1:12 released, we were, we were one of those people who were

1:14 listening week by week and to the.

1:15 Trial. And to the trial, yeah, yeah.

1:17 And it was, I mean, we were low key obsessed with it, I think.

1:23 Like it was something we talked about a lot.

1:25 Yeah. And we absolutely formed strong

1:29 opinions about it. So what's recently come out in

1:32 the media? Go back and listen to our

1:34 episode if you want to know what we thought back then.

1:36 Yeah, but what's recently come out in the media is that.

1:40 So one of the doctors, so this pre eminent neonatologist had

1:45 released a paper, I can't remember what year it was, but

1:49 it was before, well and truly before the trial, like years and

1:52 years, 151015 something years before the trial.

1:56 And the prosecutors used this paper that he'd published as

2:01 evidence to support the fact that Lucy Letbe had injected air

2:08 emboli or embolisms into their babies.

2:11 And the evidence that was presented was that this paper

2:16 showed that the way that the the mottled skin of the children of

2:21 the babies presented like an air embolus had been injected into

2:27 their bloodstream basically. So this neonatologist has

2:32 decided he, I actually had an interview with him and he said

2:36 that. So he's Canadian, and obviously

2:38 this case took place in the UK and he has since retired as a

2:42 neonatologist and he now runs a farm in Canada, right?

2:47 And he doesn't engage a lot. In fact, I don't think he has

2:50 any engagement in social media, doesn't listen to podcasts or

2:53 anything like that. And he'd only read a small

2:58 article that came out in his local newspaper when this first

3:01 went to trial. He'd read a little bit about it.

3:03 So he only knew really limited information.

3:06 He didn't even know that his paper had been used in the

3:10 prosecution of Lucy Letby, didn't even know that.

3:13 Then somehow it came about that he's come to know that that's

3:17 what's happened and that as in that his paper has been used.

3:22 And he then started to look into the case and he now thinks that

3:26 his paper was misused in the prosecution of Lucy Letby.

3:31 All that to say that he has now. He then convened a panel of

3:36 literally the best neonatologists in the world.

3:41 Now these doctors came. They did this pro bono, free.

3:47 Nobody got paid for this. They say they did it without any

3:52 judgement or preconceived notion of what they think happened.

3:55 They came at the evidence from a completely independent

4:00 standpoint. They they say that if they found

4:02 that Lucy let be was guilty, then Yep, they were happy to put

4:05 that out there. If they found that she wasn't,

4:07 they were happy to put that out there.

4:10 What they did was they, they basically found enough evidence

4:16 in their, in their opinion to demonstrate the fact that Lucy

4:21 let be is not necessarily guilty of murdering those 17 babies.

4:29 So I think there were 17 babies she was convicted of murdering.

4:32 There were 25 babies who died, I believe.

4:35 And it's, oh, I find this incredibly fascinating, but

4:40 there's lots of different reasons.

4:41 When you and I first saw this, we were like, Oh my God, what

4:44 the hell is going on here? This is like, are we about to

4:47 let potentially let a convicted baby killer out of prison?

4:53 I don't know that we're even at that point.

4:55 In fact, we're not at that point.

4:57 And there's still a lot that needs to happen, apparently.

4:59 To get an appeal to begin with and.

5:02 Apparently in the UK it's really difficult to get an appeal.

5:06 So you can't get an appeal based on inadequate representation of

5:10 council, which you can in a lot of other jurisdictions in first

5:14 world countries around the world.

5:16 So that's really tough because the really the only way you're

5:20 going to get a new trial in the UK is if new evidence is brought

5:27 to the fore. Yeah.

5:28 And what this? Case this paper.

5:32 Has already been presented. That's right so there it's not

5:34 new. No, it's just new evidence.

5:36 It's just a new take on it. That's exactly right.

5:38 And what they're saying is that Lucy Let me, Lucy Letby's

5:41 defense team had the opportunity to refute what the prosecute,

5:46 the way the prosecution used this evidence.

5:48 Yeah. So it's already been tested in

5:50 court. Yeah.

5:51 And Lucy Letby's counsel didn't challenge it.

5:55 No. So that was on them.

5:57 And because Lucy Letby can't claim that she had inadequate

6:01 representation of council, because that means nothing in

6:03 the UK, you cannot get a new trial based on that.

6:06 She's kind of screwed. But then what this this

6:09 neonatologist is saying is that he's actually considering

6:13 republishing this paper with new evidence so that it.

6:18 Becomes a new paper it. Becomes a new paper.

6:21 Exactly. So watch this space.

6:23 It's really fascinating the way they're going about.

6:26 This. I still don't know what I think

6:28 in terms of her guilt or innocence.

6:30 Yeah, because as I was saying to you that.

6:33 Does it throw a question to you though?

6:34 Certainly does. I'm certainly like going, oh, I

6:37 don't know what I believe anymore.

6:38 Like because there was all the OK, there was the medical

6:42 evidence stuff, which as I said to you, that's not my, that's

6:44 not my wheelhouse. It's your more so yours that I

6:47 think all throughout the trial. I was always coming to you going

6:49 but hang on, what about this and how what's that and what are

6:51 they talking about to clarify that information as it was so

6:55 but my mind was fairly set on the circumstantial evidence that

6:59 put her in place of this occurring.

7:02 We talked about the fact that she was she was president

7:05 present president present, present at all fine, we're fine,

7:09 we're fine. I'm I'm awake, I'm awake.

7:13 She was president present at all these.

7:16 The fuck is happening with my mouth?

7:18 Present. Present all these incidents

7:23 whereas no other nurse could be put at the at the.

7:25 I'll see there's even, there's even stuff coming out now to

7:28 refute that. OK, right.

7:29 So she, she absolutely was president, president, president

7:31 at all those at all of them. But then there's actually

7:34 evidence if you change the parameters by which you show

7:39 events. Yeah, there are actually other

7:41 nurses who could have also been also.

7:44 Attention, right? So what about when she went to

7:46 Ibiza and there was no cases? Coincidental like.

7:50 I I don't. I don't.

7:51 This stopped when they took her off the ward.

7:53 Yeah, again, coincidental. There's so much that's come out

7:57 about this. It's just, yeah, it's crazy to

8:00 me. But you know, there's there's

8:03 the thing that gets me and you and I had this chat earlier this

8:06 week. Yeah.

8:07 The thing that gets me is all of the little notes and all of the

8:11 little bits and pieces that they the evidence that they found in

8:14 her house. Like, why has she, why did she

8:16 keep all of the medical notes for these babies?

8:20 Yeah. Why did she write these really

8:21 fucking weird cards to their families and them.

8:24 And then the post it notes that she wrote where she was like,

8:26 I'm a killer. And and I know in the episode we

8:29 did talk about the fact that that doesn't necessarily make

8:31 her a killer. That's a psychological thing

8:33 where working through all those things, she's working through it

8:36 and writing it down. I still didn't believe that at

8:38 the time. And I still don't believe that

8:39 to this to this day. Yeah.

8:40 Then the thing that you found when we were doing the episode

8:44 with where she lives and what her house over now looks.

8:49 At Yeah. Like, I just feel like there's

8:51 so much there and I'm so conflicted.

8:53 Yeah. And I'm so interested to see

8:55 where this takes. Oh, to see where this takes us.

8:57 Absolutely. Look if she's innocent.

8:59 Fuck like but we'll have to bloody re record an episode and.

9:03 Look, we will. We'll do that.

9:04 But I mean, I, I don't know. I just don't.

9:07 I don't know. I don't know what I think, you

9:09 know what I think, if any, if if we do end up having to re record

9:12 it all good and fine. Yeah.

9:14 Because what we knew at the time is what we knew.

9:17 Yeah. Yeah.

9:18 And that's what the jury knew and what the media were

9:21 reporting. And we can only.

9:24 I'm not judge on the information that we've got.

9:27 Yeah. Yeah.

9:28 So the fact that new information is now coming out, yes, we need

9:31 to. I mean, this needs to probably

9:33 be tested in court. Yeah.

9:34 And whether or not it gets there, I don't know.

9:36 But, yeah, watch this space. It's really.

9:38 Fast. I mean, look, it could and as

9:40 we're saying what this could do and it's all the, all the

9:43 defence need to do is present some reasonable doubt in the

9:48 mind. Jury even even Oh right, I see

9:50 if this goes to an. If it goes to another trial, if

9:52 they're going to retrial trial, I mean, you know, getting the

9:54 appeal is one thing, but getting over that hurdle and then

9:57 getting to another trial and having, you know, all they've

9:59 got to do is by presenting this, this new information, this new

10:02 take on that information. If her new defence managed to do

10:06 that, I feel like it is going to put a bit of doubt in the minds.

10:10 Of a jury. I feel like given the fact that

10:12 they've got these like literally the world leading neonatologists

10:16 now have come out, they've issued an official statement, an

10:20 official joint statement saying that they do not think that Lucy

10:23 let me is guilty of killing these babies.

10:26 That is enough to me. But as I said to you, like, I

10:28 mean, at any trial, all these sorts of things that go on,

10:32 literally a prosecution can put it, you know, an expert on the

10:35 stand, say one thing, The defence can put an expert on the

10:38 stand who says completely the opposite.

10:40 And then it is in the hands of the jury to decide what one,

10:44 which way they want to go with that.

10:45 And that's that's where it becomes incredible.

10:48 And I said to you, to me, they kind of cancel each other out.

10:51 And therefore I can't take that into like you can't really take

10:53 that into account because it's like, well, who do I believe?

10:55 I don't have the knowledge myself.

10:57 And I can probably say 90% of the jury could.

10:59 Be sitting in my. Seat, you know, kind of thing to

11:02 me in my mind, I'd be like, OK, well, I'm going to remove that

11:05 from my understanding because they both have said the same

11:08 like, you know, it's basically counteracted each other.

11:11 Yeah. And then you're left with that

11:12 circumstantial evidence. Yeah, that you kind of go well.

11:17 Interesting. What are you gonna make of that?

11:19 That's it. It's.

11:19 So interesting. I'm I'm here for it in terms of

11:22 wanting to know what what's gonna come of it.

11:24 Also like at the end of the day, you don't want somebody who's

11:26 innocent of a crime being in jail, but then no.

11:28 But then if she is guilty of this then she's pretty well

11:31 where she deserves to be. But Oh my God I'm so conflicted.

11:34 Yeah, I'll say I'm very, very much.

11:36 And I, yeah, I don't wanna jump to any conclusions because I

11:39 don't feel like we've got. Everything.

11:41 No, absolutely. We can't say, but but

11:43 absolutely, it's thrown enough doubt in my mind to be like, oh,

11:45 I actually don't know. I don't know what I think I need

11:47 to know more information. Yeah, yeah.

11:50 We'll see. God, that hospital though.

11:52 Seriously. Oh, the hospital has so much to

11:54 answer for. I just really quickly, I was

11:57 telling you this when I was looking into it, apparently the

11:59 consultants on the ward, so they're the most senior doctors,

12:02 right? They in all other first world

12:07 neonatal intensive care units, it is protocol for the

12:12 consultants or the the most senior doctors to do 2 ward

12:16 rounds a day. So that means they get seen by

12:19 an expert. The babies get seen by an expert

12:22 2 times every single day. You would hope so, yeah.

12:25 At the Countess of Chester, which is the hospital in which

12:27 these these poor babies died, the consultants were doing two

12:34 ward rounds a week. That blows my mind.

12:38 Blows my mind. They also found like, some

12:40 pseudomotes, some bacteria in the water supply that was then

12:43 used to like, bathe and whatever the oh, it's just like so many

12:47 things. But yeah, watch this space.

12:49 Yeah, I mean, her defence team obviously didn't do well.

12:52 They were terrible. I think we even mentioned that

12:54 in our episode. They weren't very good.

12:56 No. Oh, God.

12:58 Wow. All right.

12:59 I just said before we now shift into and jump straight into snow

13:02 town and back where we where we've.

13:03 Actually have a couple of shout outs before.

13:05 We go there, but go on. All I wanna say is can I just

13:07 thank you for our lovely chairs that we're sitting in today?

13:09 Because I'm sitting in the most comfortable chairs whilst we're

13:13 we're doing this. I feel like my ass wants to

13:16 thank you. No, you're, you're welcome.

13:17 So normally we sit on my very uncomfortable dining.

13:21 Chairs. They're not bad, but these are

13:23 really nice. Those so we've just recently put

13:26 some desks in for kids because we're getting to that point

13:29 where they needed a space to you know, do homework and just not

13:33 not on the kitchen table, which was just driving me a bit Batty

13:36 yeah so we got them some desks IKEA for the win on the desks

13:39 but we didn't really like any of the chairs in like the desk sort

13:42 of office type chairs in IKEA so we went to officeworks and these

13:47 were on sale they were half price and they are just glorious

13:51 yes they're so padded and so comfy and loving it I'm.

13:54 Sorry, they're too good for your children.

13:57 Yeah, I know, right? Well, at least they they don't

13:59 weigh as much so they hopefully they won't destroy them too

14:01 quickly. True, true.

14:03 And we can get some nice comfiness for forevermore.

14:07 Very, very much loving that. If you've got to sit here a bit

14:09 longer to do these episodes then I am more than happy.

14:12 Super into it. A few shout outs before we get

14:14 in. We have Kayla, Sarah and

14:17 Catherine have been commenting. I think it was mostly in our

14:21 Spotify like on the episode comments.

14:23 Thanks, guys. They were all really positive

14:25 and really lovely. And they all said, oh, we just

14:27 love your show. We're really looking forward to.

14:29 They've just found us, I think, or fairly recently found us and

14:33 are listening to the back catalogue.

14:34 And then I also have a bit of a personal shout out to my ex work

14:38 colleague and really good friend Nadine.

14:41 I you know how you've got those people in your life and you'll

14:44 call them, it might be, you know, months since you've

14:48 spoken, but it feels like once you speak to them, it feels like

14:51 it's just no times past. Yeah, Nadine's one of my friends

14:54 like that and I love it. I think the last time I saw her

14:57 was, Oh my God, it was months and months ago, but something

15:00 this week told me now I need to call her.

15:03 And so we had a lovely chat, lovely catch up.

15:05 And she didn't know we were doing a podcast, so I don't know

15:11 if the last time we caught up, it just didn't come up or

15:15 whatever, but so it sort of came up in conversation the other day

15:20 and literally that night she messaged me and she's like, I'm

15:23 6 episodes in. I'm loving it.

15:25 It's so good. So thank you, Nadine.

15:29 Welcome. Nice to have you on board.

15:31 Yeah, that's it. Love it.

15:33 Excellent. I love all the new people that

15:35 are joining us. That's great.

15:36 I mean, on that same topic, if share it with your friends, you

15:39 know, if you've got I mean, we're growing, you know,

15:41 exponentially at the moment. It's amazing, yeah, but we're

15:44 here for it. So yeah, share it away.

15:47 Share away with. Your friends, that's how I feel

15:49 like that's how we've been getting growth.

15:50 Like people are like, oh, I found out about you through this

15:53 person or yeah, whatever. So.

15:55 Thank you to everyone who does that.

15:57 Absolutely. We really, really appreciate it.

16:00 All right, I think we need to get into this because otherwise

16:02 we're gonna. Be going.

16:02 On we're procrastinating again. We might be, we might be, but.

16:06 Yeah, as we said last week, really happy to get this one out

16:09 of the brain because it's a big. One, it's huge.

16:12 Yeah, and we're only gonna get, I think our last episode was bad

16:15 enough in terms of the intricate detail we went to of like what

16:18 went on today is probably more so.

16:21 Oh, for sure, absolutely. So we should probably start

16:23 with, again, similar warning to last week, you know, look after

16:27 yourself if you need. This is maybe not the episode

16:29 for you. We are going to talk about, you

16:31 know, suicide again. We're going to talk about

16:34 definitely sexual assaults and all those sorts of things again.

16:37 So it's pretty full on. And in terms of terminology we

16:41 use when we're referring to the LGBTQIA plus community, yeah, we

16:46 just want to be be mindful of the fact that the language that

16:51 we use in this episode is the language that was used at the

16:55 time and by people involved in this story.

16:58 And it in no way reflects the way that we see the LGBTQIA plus

17:03 community. And I think Meg mentioned in the

17:06 episode last week, if we've upset somebody or we have, you

17:11 know, said something out of turn, please let us know because

17:14 we're here to learn as well. And we would never, it is never

17:17 our intention to offend anyone. Yeah, absolutely.

17:20 Please call us out if we are using wrong terminology.

17:22 Absolutely, I'd be corrected anytime.

17:25 Agreed. All right, so Snowtown Part 2

17:30 bodies in the barrels. We are here at the bodies and

17:33 the barrels, I think. We are at the bodies and the

17:35 barrels, so I'm actually going to start on the 20th of May

17:38 1999. Yep, this is the day that the

17:41 bodies of what we now know were eight people were found in six

17:48 plastic barrels in a disused bank vault in Snowtown, South

17:55 Australia. The snow town's about 140

17:57 kilometres north of Adelaide, and it is the scene of the

18:02 discovery of these bodies, but it is not the scene of where

18:05 these murders necessarily took place, with the exception of one

18:08 person in this case. The Snow town murders, as

18:13 they've become to be known, actually encompasses the murder

18:16 of 12 different people. And we're going to go through

18:19 all that today. The crimes were perpetrated

18:23 between August of 1992 and May of 1999 and the the the actual

18:33 discovery. I don't know if you've listened

18:34 to this actually, Meg, I listened to a podcast where a

18:38 man so the forensic officer. Yes.

18:42 Did you listen to this? A number of ones actually that

18:44 he was, he spoke in. So yeah.

18:45 He's he's amazing. Yeah.

18:47 This. Was his first case.

18:50 Was it really? Yeah, as as lead, Yeah, yeah.

18:54 Really. Yeah, I did not know that even

18:57 after listening to a couple of things from him, I did not know

18:59 that. So he's he's a lovely guy, but

19:02 he was a forensic officer with the South Australian Police

19:05 force and he was based about 20 KS out of snow town somewhere.

19:10 Yeah, I think so. And he was called to.

19:13 So basically the I guess, how did they get?

19:19 How did the police even come to arrive at the?

19:21 Bank well, even that's a little bit of a weirds and weird thing

19:24 that they weren't they didn't really they weren't expecting to

19:28 find what they found. No, and that's not no, not at

19:30 all. They they they were looking.

19:32 It was more so Elizabeth Harvey, one of the victims we'll get

19:36 into that. They were looking into, and it

19:39 was, and from looking into her disappearance.

19:42 And because that point, it was disappearance, it started, the

19:45 same names kept appearing. And there was some interesting

19:48 things they were looking into which led them to going to this

19:51 bank. Yeah, in Snowtown to have a

19:53 check out of what was going on there because one of the

19:56 people's names was on the lease for it.

19:58 Yes, this. And it was a disused old bank

20:02 and. Yeah, so and then and then an

20:05 odd smell was coming from the bank at the time, so.

20:10 Yeah. And I know that what he spoke

20:12 about was that he got a phone call from like chief of police

20:16 kind of stuff. And at the time, because he was

20:17 so new, he didn't realize that that's not what normally happens

20:21 and that that person is not normally on the scene because

20:24 this was that big a case that that that level of police

20:27 officer was on the scene that he has now learned since then of

20:31 like, if that person's there with this heads out, this is

20:35 pretty important. Pretty, pretty huge because he's

20:37 got the phone call and he in the gut and he said, oh, got these

20:40 barrels here and what do you think we should do with them?

20:42 And he's like, open them. If you find a foot, let me know.

20:46 Yeah. And then gets a phone call back

20:47 about 10 minutes later and I found a I found a foot so.

20:50 I think we're referring to different people.

20:52 When I, when I'm talking, sorry, I'm actually talking about the

20:54 photographer who they engage. Sorry, Forensic.

20:57 The forensic photographer. Before the pathologist I was

20:59 talking about. Sorry, I'm sorry.

21:01 Sorry, that was probably a bit mixed up, but yeah, this.

21:04 So he was a forensic photographer.

21:06 So he did all of the, he called it the CSI shit in the, in the

21:11 podcast I listened to. So it was his job to, he said

21:14 the worst thing he'd been to at that stage.

21:15 So he was a youngish guy too, but he wasn't new, right.

21:20 Really Sorry. But the worst thing he'd been to

21:22 was a bus accident on a like a grey light, a Greyhound bus that

21:26 was travelling from Victoria to SA crashed in South Australia.

21:30 And there was, there were fatalities.

21:32 Yeah. And that was the worst thing

21:33 he'd seen to that point. Yeah.

21:35 As a young sort of forensic cop. Yes.

21:39 So he was called, he was, it was in the afternoon and he got a

21:44 phone call from his Sergeant to say, you need to get yourself to

21:48 Snowtown. There's just something there you

21:50 need to photograph. They found something.

21:51 It's, it's, it's smells and like, don't know if it's going

21:55 to be animals, don't know what we're going to find in there.

21:58 But you know, they've requested a forensic photographer to go.

22:00 And that was that was part of his role.

22:03 So he rang his wife and this is back.

22:06 I think he said it was very early days of mobile phones, but

22:09 he actually had to stop to call his wife and was like, yeah,

22:12 I'll probably be home for dinner, but not sure.

22:14 Don't want dinner after that. Turns out didn't get home until

22:18 the next day because when he got there, he was one of the first

22:23 people to go in. So apparently the 1st police

22:26 officer who went in was a woman. She walked in and she actually,

22:32 she walked in I think with her superior and the smell was so

22:37 overwhelming. Her superior like literally

22:39 grabbed her and shoved her outside because they're like, if

22:42 she vomits in here, that's going to contaminate her.

22:45 Potentially a crime scene. Yeah, yeah.

22:47 So and So what they they've then done is everyone's retreated and

22:51 when. And they're all vomiting out the

22:52 front, Yeah. And when this man, when this guy

22:55 came, the forensic officer came, he was trained in full breathing

23:00 apparatus and none of the rest of them were.

23:02 So he actually donned his full breathing kit with the oxygen

23:06 tanks and everything and full gowned up and he was actually

23:11 the first person to go into that bank because he was the only one

23:14 who could stand the smell. Well, and but I believe he

23:16 could, I mean in that full suit and with oxygen everything.

23:20 So therefore you'd think this smell couldn't permetrate that,

23:23 but it did. He still.

23:25 Actually, he says did. Cop some of the smell.

23:27 And not only that he reckons so yes, he's in this full forensic

23:31 like suit. He reckons when he left there

23:33 that day or the next morning, I think it was like as they were

23:36 there for a very, very long time, he got home and he said he

23:40 the clothes, his clothes smelt so bad.

23:43 It was like he could, like he's never smelt anything like that.

23:46 And that was just his clothes. Yeah.

23:48 And they were under the suit. Yeah, some of the police

23:50 officers have said to this day that smell is burnt into their

23:53 brains like they they can still smell it like and.

23:56 Imagine the smell of death. Like, I remember, and this is,

24:00 I'm not comparing my experience at all to what these police

24:03 officers or any police officer who's attending this.

24:06 But we were down at Phillip Island one day and a whale had

24:11 washed up ashore. And we went like everyone was

24:14 going down to see it because, I mean, you never see that.

24:16 It was. It was an incredible thing to

24:19 see. Yeah.

24:19 But that's not. People were vomiting then.

24:21 Yeah, Right. That smell of a decaying mammal.

24:25 Yeah, it was so overwhelming. It was.

24:28 And people were sick because of it.

24:30 It was. It is such a strong smell.

24:32 So I can imagine that. And then you take into account

24:35 there's 8 bodies they had been deceased for some of them for a

24:38 very, very long time. Yep.

24:40 Yes, they were in hydrochloric acid, but that doesn't preserve

24:43 a body. No.

24:45 And didn't break it down entirely.

24:48 No. No.

24:49 Oh my God. So anyway, this forensic officer

24:52 was the first person to open the first barrel and not knowing

24:55 what they were going to find in there, he said they kind of

24:57 thought it might be animal remains.

24:59 Because of course you, your first thought isn't oh, I'm

25:03 going to find bodies in here. But as you said, he's like, oh,

25:05 well, if I find a foot, I'll let you know.

25:07 They open up the barrel and what do they find?

25:10 A literal, literal foot. Yep, Yep, the the pathologist

25:16 then that I I listen to because then the issue was was how do

25:20 what do we do to get these what find out what's in here, but

25:24 also preserve whatever else is what if whatever is in the

25:27 barrels entirely could be evidence?

25:29 I mean, because, yeah, when they did finally get them out, there

25:32 was was other belongings and things in there to identify

25:36 people to, you know, like, and things that we use within the

25:40 process of of this that they needed to preserve.

25:43 So it was a quite an exhibition to be able to transport these

25:47 barrels entirely to the pathology offices office.

25:52 And then that strain, they literally strained then out the

25:55 liquid to make sure that they could then keep any, any

25:59 evidence inside how big or small to keep anything they could to,

26:03 to then look at it and and find any evidence.

26:06 So what an ordeal to then. And then what they explained, he

26:10 explained to was that the the acid they had used was not ideal

26:17 in that they it didn't break the body down, but it also, but what

26:21 it did do is breakdown enough that there was no DNA that was

26:23 able to be extracted from these people, like right down a bone

26:26 marrow. No, the DNA had been so.

26:30 What's it was basically bleached, Yeah, they basically,

26:32 sorry, it's basically bleached that they'd put them in.

26:35 So yes, it had just destroyed all the cells that there was no

26:38 DNA. No, it had it all been degraded.

26:39 So they had to be obliterated. Dental records, Tattoos, you

26:44 know, other markings on the bodies and things to be able to

26:46 identify which body part went with who and who these people.

26:49 Well, this is this is the thing, because I think they assumed at

26:52 the start they had six barrels, there were going to be 6 bodies.

26:54 Yes, but what they actually found was the six Barry Feel

26:57 contained barrel. Yeah, the six barrels actually

27:00 contained 8 bodies and it's mixed up because, you know, if

27:05 you can't fit someone holds balls in there, well, I'm going

27:07 to have to cut them up and pop them in the other barrel.

27:09 How annoying. The thing I think that when I

27:11 got to a point where they'd filled the six barrels and then

27:13 when they they need to do, they're like, oh, I'm sure I can

27:15 shove a bit more in that barrel and that's what they did and

27:18 spread them out from there and oh.

27:20 God, they used to stick to like match.

27:24 Poke the minimum and. Poke the bodies in and so they

27:27 could fit more in. Why didn't they just go and buy

27:30 another barrel? I don't know why'd they do

27:33 anything. I mean, why did they do any of

27:35 it? That's.

27:35 Just the comprehension of any of it.

27:38 It's beyond. It's actually quite literally

27:41 beyond comprehension. So horrific.

27:44 So let's start with we're gonna go victim by victim today.

27:50 There's a lot of instances in this where we don't have exact

27:53 exact dates of death because they are unknown.

27:56 We know maybe on or around what date these people were murdered,

28:00 but I mean. Maybe a month?

28:02 Yeah, maybe a month if we're lucky, but but these people, you

28:05 know, it's not like they kept records of what they were doing.

28:07 So a lot of it's sort of either hearsay or just sort of

28:11 gathering information from when they went missing or when

28:14 particular incidents happened and.

28:16 You can assume witness statements, but you know, we're

28:18 talking from a period of seven years of from 1992 to 99.

28:22 Yeah. And one particular person who

28:24 gave the most amount of eyewitness account of all this

28:27 was quite young. Yes.

28:28 So him trying to sort of probably give the evidence of

28:30 terms of like particular, like actually toning it down to a

28:33 date would be pretty impossible for anyone to be honest, to

28:37 remember exactly what date. I think that they've even got

28:39 close is. Yeah, like amazing.

28:42 Yeah, that's right. But we've we'll stick to the

28:44 sequence of, you know, what we believe was the sequence of

28:48 these victims. But that's about the best week.

28:51 Even then I've because because when I was ordering my notes,

28:54 I'm like, OK, but there were somewhere I'm like, oh, that one

28:57 thinks that one died 1st. And so we're doing our best to

29:01 keep them in what is reported to be the most common order.

29:04 Of yeah, I think so, yeah. So let's go with the first

29:08 victim then. Yeah.

29:08 Well, it was definitely the first victim.

29:10 Yeah, we noticed for certain he was also the first body that was

29:13 found and he wasn't in one of the barrels, obviously.

29:15 So, yeah. So Clinton Douglas Trezeis, he

29:19 was 20 years of age, age. He was troubled kid in some

29:27 ways. He was known to be very

29:31 flamboyant, had a family around him who who loved him and cared

29:37 for him. Not to say that he didn't have

29:39 sort of a bit of a rough go of things, though.

29:43 But I'm so. Oh gosh, it's just awful.

29:46 Poor Clinton Trize was bashed to death with a shovel by another

29:53 than Bunting. So this was one that Bunting did

29:56 pretty much on his own in the IT was in the living room of his

30:00 Salisbury North home in South Australia.

30:05 He was just invited around for a chat, really.

30:08 And that. And so he just he asked Clint,

30:10 he'd seen him around. He had named him Happy Pants.

30:15 Yeah, because he would wear, I mean, at the time, 19 in the

30:17 90s, you know, Happy Pants were the thing.

30:19 But he would wear quite flamboyant, sort of coloured for

30:22 clothing. Bunting hated that and.

30:23 He just couldn't handle that at all.

30:25 No, as we've spoken about, in Bunting's mind, if you were gay,

30:29 you were also a pedophile. It just that's what his thought

30:31 process was. He could not distinguish between

30:33 the two. So he had decided that Clinton

30:38 was a pedophile. And so he, yeah, basically

30:42 invited him over. And on August 31st, 1992, and he

30:48 was sitting on the couch and he just whacked him over the head

30:50 with a shovel. And he ended up, he buried his

30:54 body out in a shallow grave out in lower light in South

30:59 Australia. Now this His body was found in

31:04 1994. Yes, the 16th of August in 1994,

31:07 so almost two years later. Yeah, yeah.

31:11 So there were some guys working out on a farm and they had

31:14 stumbled across some a bone at first, which they kind of just

31:20 thought was a sheep's bone, a sheep bone of some sort, you

31:22 know, animal bone like that. But when they looked a bit

31:24 closer, they realized that it was a skull.

31:27 And they could also very clearly see it immediately that there

31:30 was head trauma. So they that.

31:34 Means the skull must have been crushed or like bashed.

31:37 In or bashed with the shovel you can see this the damage

31:39 immediately. That shows just how rageful the

31:43 attack must have been. Absolutely.

31:45 So, yeah, basically they realized that they had disturbed

31:48 a grave of somebody and called authorities, obviously.

31:53 So at this point Trousas was his sister was looking for him, was

31:59 actively trying to find him. So he was actually the subject

32:04 of two episodes of of Australia's Most Wanted This.

32:07 Is this is so fascinating. Yeah, yeah.

32:10 So on these these episodes were watched by Bunting.

32:13 It it it was in 1997 by the time they were actually on this on

32:17 the show. And his sister.

32:19 So Clinton's sister had been looking for him this entire

32:22 time? She had no idea what had

32:24 happened to him, No. No.

32:25 So they had these bones and they, they hadn't actually

32:28 identified him as Clinton Trize at this point.

32:30 No, they basically were saying that there was these these bones

32:35 and we're trying to find out who it is.

32:37 I think there was twice they, they re examined the bones and

32:42 still didn't identify the body as Trize.

32:45 It took a third go before they actually pinned it down to being

32:49 Trize, but yeah. So Bunting sat and watched

32:53 Australia's Most Wanted and with his soon to well, well, at the

32:57 time for Sarkis, his what step sons, I guess she'd call him.

33:01 Yeah. And and he and his mother,

33:03 Elizabeth Harvey. I'll get the names right and

33:06 make sure. Oh, God.

33:08 Elizabeth Harvey, who was his partner at the time, was

33:11 Bunting's partner. Yeah, Bunting's partner.

33:12 So they they were sitting watching it together.

33:15 And he would. He boasted to them that, oh,

33:17 that's some of my handiwork. Literally, and this is, I think

33:21 we spoke about this in last week's episode, he is

33:26 indoctrinate. Like he's basically by saying

33:28 that he has now got lasarkas and Elizabeth obviously as well, but

33:34 he has got lasarkas now. He knows something that he

33:37 probably never wanted to know, and that implicates him in a

33:40 way. Yeah, well, by 97 he'd probably

33:43 seen a hell of a lot for Sarkas. Yeah, yeah.

33:46 But I mean, I think this just further.

33:48 Yeah. I mean, what, what was this poor

33:50 kid to? Do Oh God, yeah.

33:52 I mean, they clearly weren't in a state of where like you could

33:54 hear someone say that to them and go, oh wait, I need to go

33:57 and report this to police like. Just so at the time of Clinton's

34:03 death. Yeah.

34:05 Barry Lane later became Vanessa Lane assisted Bunting in the

34:12 disposal of his body. Yeah, yeah.

34:14 Of Clinton's body. Yeah.

34:15 So he was already involved in 1992.

34:18 In 1992, he was involved. Yeah, look gross.

34:23 This brings us to victim #2 Ray Davies.

34:26 Yep, Ray Davies had an intellectual disability.

34:31 He was in a relationship with Bunting's ex partner named

34:36 Suzanne Allen. Suzanne, this is it's so it's so

34:43 intertwined, isn't it? The way this all works?

34:46 Yeah. Suzanne's grandsons said that

34:50 Davies made sexual advances towards them.

34:53 So Suzanne Allen, was he? Look, she was a bit older than

34:56 Ray. I was.

34:57 Just thinking, I'm just realizing it.

34:58 My head. Ray Davies was 26.

35:00 Yeah, but but she's a grandmother.

35:02 Yeah, but she was only, like, in her 30s when she was a

35:05 grandmother. So I feel like she had kids

35:07 young and then her kids had kids.

35:09 Yeah. Like, I think she was in a.

35:10 She might have been 10 years or so older than him.

35:12 I think she was in her mid to late 30s.

35:14 Yeah. OK.

35:15 OK. And I feel like us being a

35:16 grandma, can you even imagine? Oh God.

35:19 I'd lean into it, but no. But so basically, oh, for fuck's

35:27 sake, Davies molested her grandchildren.

35:32 Yeah, they then broke up because of all of this, but she's still

35:37 LED. So Suzanne still let Ray live in

35:41 a caravan on her property. Yeah, around her, children

35:45 around her. Kids like what?

35:46 Her grandkids and her kids? I mean regardless, what the fuck

35:51 wouldn't you be like? You can fuck right off.

35:54 I don't care what happens to you.

35:57 You are no longer welcome. But they also don't report this

36:00 stuff to police, no. None of it's reported.

36:01 This is the thing that I find, yeah.

36:03 Is that because of just the environment?

36:06 Trust with police officers, Yeah.

36:08 All that. It's a it's a vicious cycle,

36:12 yeah. So Ray Davies was killed by

36:16 Bunting on the 25th of December in 1995.

36:19 We know that date for sure. Yeah, on the 26th of December.

36:22 So the next day, Ray's daughter Annette saw Bunting and Ellen

36:28 cleaning out the caravan. So she, she, she couldn't spend

36:33 Christmas with him for whatever reason, or visit him on

36:36 Christmas Day. So she's gone on Boxing Day to,

36:37 to sort of catch up with him and be like, OK, well, let's go and

36:41 see dad, daddy dearest and see what going on.

36:45 What's going on? Then Bunting tells a story that

36:50 Elizabeth Harvey, so this is Lasarcus's mum, stabbed Davies

36:54 in the leg and Robert Wagner strangled him with jumper

36:58 cables. So that's his story of how it

37:00 all went down. Yeah.

37:04 OK, cool, cool, cool. Bunting and Wagner then

37:07 apparently put Ray's body into the boot of a card.

37:10 Now, this is the bit. OK.

37:12 Last week I mentioned the castle.

37:14 Movie. And how it conjured up the I dug

37:19 a hole, sort of. Scenario water.

37:22 They put Ray's body into the boot of a Torana.

37:27 Yeah. Daryl Kerrigan.

37:32 Dad. In the castle.

37:33 Yeah. Quote of the quote of the

37:36 century. Really.

37:36 Yeah. Hey, Steve, can you move the

37:38 Chimera? I need to get to the Torana.

37:40 I need to get the Torata out to get to the Commodore.

37:43 Yeah, sure thing, Dad, But I'll have to get the keys to the

37:45 Cortina if I'm going to move the Chimera.

37:49 All right mate, just watch the boat.

37:53 It's one of it's one of the best load ever because live that same

37:57 and we know we all turned 18 and we got our licenses.

38:01 It that's exactly what happened in all of our houses.

38:03 Exactly. And Marina to get to the Holden,

38:07 to get to the Commodore. And if you grew up in in an

38:10 Australian household and your parents didn't have either a

38:13 Torana or a Commodore or a Camira?

38:15 Did you even grew up in Australia?

38:16 I was like, we may have ticked all of those boxes, or maybe not

38:19 the Torana, but we definitely had a Camira and a Commodore.

38:22 I'll just topic because my brother drove AVB Commodore with

38:25 a number plate A&K, so we put AW in front of it.

38:31 Well, that was asking for it, so it's weird.

38:37 Go on. Yeah.

38:38 Anyway, side note, I think that was a bit of a side note, bit of

38:41 a tangent, but couldn't not mention that.

38:44 No, if we can get some light in this, we will like because Jesus

38:47 Christ. So anyway, Bunting and Wagner

38:49 have put Ray Davies body into the back of the Torana and drove

38:54 him to Bacara in South Australia, which is 90 minutes

38:57 away from Salisbury where the event where the murder took

39:01 place. Yeah, they put him in a bathtub

39:05 and bashed him in his genitals. Yeah, because we should say that

39:10 they put him in the back of that car for 90 minutes, just

39:12 unconscious. He wasn't dead.

39:13 Yeah, he was unconscious. It wasn't a body like he was.

39:15 He was unconscious at best. Yeah.

39:18 I would say he was barely alive. Well, what they did to him next

39:23 was just but. They bashed him in his genitals

39:26 until he died. Like that's what his body was

39:32 found on the 26th of 26th of May in 1999 in a grave on a property

39:37 that Bunting had lived on previously, no longer was living

39:40 there. There were security cameras.

39:44 So once this was obviously being investigated, there were

39:47 security cameras that captured Bunting withdrawing cash from

39:52 banks in and around the area. Yeah, between January and April

39:57 of 1999, so I don't know if surveillance only went for that

40:00 time period, but over the course of all of these murders, yeah,

40:06 Bunting gained access to $97,200.00 of welfare payments

40:15 from his combined from all victims, Yeah, and one of the

40:18 longest. One of the longest claims that

40:22 he was making was against Ray Davies, so I don't know the

40:24 exact proportions of dollar figures for each person, but 97

40:28 grand. Well, I mean the seven years.

40:31 Of doing fuck all, yeah, that's not killing people.

40:33 As much as he, you know, claims his motives were around this,

40:37 you know, the fact that he was a paedophile and all these sorts

40:39 of things, more and more it became around getting money.

40:42 Because they absolutely. Did because like same with this

40:44 boat. They cleared out the caravan of

40:45 any of his possessions and they, I mean, this they were, they

40:48 accumulated all this furniture and things because they would

40:51 clear people's houses out, but they'd also collect their

40:54 welfare payments because people weren't looking for these people

40:57 when they went missing. Like, I mean, as we said,

40:59 Clinton Drews ice, yes, his sister was looking for him and

41:04 but they just didn't connect the dots at all on who where he was.

41:08 But no one was reporting Ray Davies missing.

41:10 No, no one missed him. Even his daughter who rocked up

41:13 there on the 26th of December looking for him.

41:16 Saw them clearing his caravan out, they took it on face value

41:19 that he would have. He just moved on wherever he

41:21 went, and he's gone like. Like, as in they've probably

41:24 said to her, Oh yeah, he was. He moved to QLD.

41:26 Yeah, he was molesting the kids. We told him to fuck off.

41:28 Well, what's she gonna do with that information?

41:30 Yes, she's like, OK, well then now I can't find my dad, don't

41:33 know where. He is, but probably better off

41:34 without him too. Yeah, so but the.

41:36 Fact that she was as an adult, he's going back to visit him for

41:38 Christmas. I'm like, there must have been

41:39 something there, you know? Yeah.

41:41 And then the other thing is a lot of what we're telling you,

41:46 nothing's been taken to court. Like, we don't know that, right?

41:49 I mean, he probably was a perpetrator of sexual violence

41:53 against young children, but there is nothing proving that

41:56 none of these people are convicted pedophiles.

41:58 And I'm not saying you have to be convicted to be a pedophile.

42:01 But what I'm saying is, in the law of bloody bunting or in the

42:06 courtroom of bloody bunting, he's just Yep.

42:09 He was using like he was, you know, an excuse like kind of

42:12 like, you know, OK, or someone said maybe that person is a

42:15 pedophile. Therefore they are like yes.

42:17 And I'm sorry, but sometimes he just decided that they were when

42:20 they like, for example, Clinton Trize, yes, Why?

42:23 Because he's gay. Then he must be a pedophile.

42:25 So we're going to fucking kill him like.

42:26 That's horrific and what else? I mean he hadn't done anything

42:29 to anyone to you know, he's particularly one that stands out

42:32 to me Trize that I just kind of go.

42:34 There was nothing. He just I honestly believe he

42:38 bunting had escalated to a point of I'm ready to kill someone.

42:41 Yeah, agreed. And he was, and bunting in his

42:43 mind or in his ideology, whatever he was thinking, was

42:46 like, well, I'm justified in doing this because he's, yeah,

42:49 gay and a pedophile. Yeah, Yep.

42:51 And he, I mean, at that stage he had met Wagner who became the

42:55 muscle like because this is the thing, he was, I mean, Bunting

42:58 wasn't the biggest bloke and he wasn't the strongest or anything

43:01 like that, but Wagner was. So Wagner was, but he was also

43:04 hefty. Like he was a big man.

43:07 Yeah, and obviously this will come up again and again, but you

43:10 know, what would happen is that Wagner would do the actual

43:12 killing. He would be the one who'd be

43:14 strangling the person, which is quite often how the the murders

43:17 would take place eventually. And so he would do that.

43:21 And what Bunting would do is just intently watch for that

43:25 moment when they would leave their body basically, which is

43:30 just horrible. It's psychopathic.

43:33 That was, I mean, that's presented in that movie that we

43:35 spoke about, the Snowtown movie that, And there were parts of

43:38 that. That was the parts of the movie

43:39 where I was, I can't, I can't amount amount.

43:41 I had to. I was looking away and

43:44 distracting yourself in other ways.

43:46 Yeah, Yeah. Big time.

43:48 The third victim was Suzanne Allen.

43:51 She was 47 years of age at the time of her death and she was

43:56 actually found buried at Bunting's house in Salisbury

43:59 North on the 23rd of May 1999. Which is so following after

44:03 finding the barrels they found the more bodies.

44:05 Yeah, and which was three days later, they went and did a

44:09 search, obviously of his property and that's what they

44:12 found her. She was wrapped in plastic bags.

44:16 Her death was obviously concealed by Bunting.

44:18 And he claimed about $17,000 worth of her pension during this

44:22 time. Yeah.

44:23 So from the time of her death through until, you know, 1999,

44:27 May of 1999, Yeah. Bunting claims that she died of

44:30 a heart attack and. And then he.

44:32 Just covered up her death to then take her pension.

44:36 Yeah, yeah. And he was actually never

44:38 convicted of her murder. No.

44:40 Unfortunately, because there was a lack of evidence to support

44:43 the fact that he'd murdered her. Yeah.

44:45 What gets me though is he's concealed a murder.

44:47 There's still a crime that has taken place here, but they just

44:49 didn't. They ended up dropping it

44:51 entirely, like because they just couldn't get enough.

44:54 Well, the jury were locked on it.

44:56 Yeah. There was a deadlock in the

44:58 jury. So they just.

44:59 This is this one is unfortunately at the 12.

45:01 You'll see it will get to the when it gets in that 11 murders

45:05 was he was convicted of. Yeah.

45:07 This is the one of Susan Allen where they just couldn't convict

45:11 him on it. Yeah.

45:12 No. So I mean, I think that's really

45:14 tragic for Susan Allen and for her family that that we could.

45:17 We couldn't get that over the line because, as you say, either

45:20 way, he's done something pretty shit no matter what.

45:24 Yeah, but yeah, just. Horrific.

45:28 The next victim is Michelle Gardner.

45:31 Yeah, formerly Michael Gardner, 19 years of age.

45:35 Oh my fucking Lord. Yeah, she disappeared in 1997,

45:40 and she lived with Wagner's wife's cousin.

45:46 So again, this is so it. Gets so intertwined, intertwined

45:49 and trying to work out where these people fit in amongst each

45:52 other. But they they all, they're all

45:53 interlinked somewhere. That's it.

45:55 Yeah, they all. Yeah, there's a tie.

45:58 Yeah, there's a tie into every. They weren't.

46:00 This is the thing. They weren't just going out

46:02 really and selecting randoms. No, in that way, these are

46:05 people they knew. Yeah, people that actually

46:08 related to, or at least your neighbor was related to, Yeah,

46:11 sort of stuff it was, Yeah, very, very personal.

46:14 You've got to wonder why no one was going, hey, how come all

46:16 these people that connected to each other are missing?

46:19 Bunting took serious offence to Michelle's presence and life,

46:24 and he was overheard calling her things like the biggest homo and

46:28 all this like really derogatory things.

46:31 Yeah, in 1997, Michelle was playing with Wagner's children

46:38 in the front yard and she placed her hand over one of the kids

46:41 mouths, which, OK, what the fuck?

46:43 Like, that's not playing. That's like weird shit.

46:47 But I mean, you're 19 years old, you probably haven't had the

46:49 best upbringing. Maybe you don't know how to play

46:51 with young kids, you know, safe and, I don't know, constructive

46:54 way. I don't know.

46:55 I don't know. Yeah.

46:57 But Wagner saw this happen, and the rage was intrigued for him

47:02 immediately. Because apparently when he was

47:06 as a child sexually assaulted, that was part of when he was

47:10 assaulted, the person put their hands over his mouth.

47:13 Oh, is this Wagner? Yeah, Wagner.

47:15 And so watching that happen, this is what that's this is what

47:19 Scott told of. That's that why that was so

47:22 triggering. OK.

47:23 That that's what he brought it to Bunting saying like going no,

47:26 that's it. That's I, I thought she was a

47:28 pedophile. And now I know she is like,

47:30 right. Yeah, I did.

47:31 Not know that part of it, I just assumed that because he saw her

47:35 doing that to his kids that that was enough.

47:39 It did trigger for him something in terms of what happened to

47:41 him. OK, that gives a little more

47:42 context. Not that any, not that what

47:44 happened next is OK, but that gives a bit more context.

47:47 Yeah. Yeah.

47:47 So basically Wagner and Bunting then?

47:49 Yep. They've been like, Yep, she's a

47:51 she's a pedophile. She's a bad, bad person.

47:54 Yeah. So they took her to a shed in

47:56 Murray Bridge, SA and they strangled her.

47:59 Now, can I ask, how did they, where did this property come

48:05 into play? Do you know?

48:07 No. I don't know either and I looked

48:09 into, I was like, why Murray Bridge and whose property was

48:13 this and how did they know to go there?

48:14 Was it potentially Hayden's? Maybe.

48:17 So he did own a house. Yes, but was it in Murray

48:20 Bridge? I.

48:21 Feel like it might. Have been OK when I'm OK that

48:22 makes sense I. Possibly.

48:24 Don't quote us, but I think that might be what where that was

48:27 that, yeah, that came into it. OK, 'cause it's like, how are

48:29 they finding all these random places to kill people?

48:31 Yeah, well, the way even Hayden got this property is a bit

48:35 fucked up too. So he, because he did own, I

48:37 mean, it wasn't a rental. It wasn't like, yeah, yeah, OK.

48:42 They so they've strangled her, she's deceased.

48:47 They then staged a robbery, robbery, robbery, a robbery at

48:52 her house. As good as a president?

48:55 And told the cousin who she was living with that she'd use the

49:01 money for a sex change operation.

49:03 Yeah. And fucked up.

49:04 And so it was like it was like Michelle had robbed her own home

49:10 where she was living with her with.

49:13 They were in a relationship. They were in a relation.

49:15 Yes, yes, yes, yeah. But that she's fucked off and

49:19 taking the money and she's using that for a sex change operation.

49:22 Yeah. So that's where she is.

49:23 It's she's not dead. She's disappeared doing that.

49:26 That's. And she's not coming back

49:27 because she's stolen your money and she's now.

49:30 So then that makes her not go, you know, I'm gonna report her

49:32 missing to the police because, oh, she's been a bitch to me.

49:34 She's taking all my stuff and looking after herself.

49:37 Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

49:39 So Michelle's body is the first body to go into a barrel.

49:42 Yeah. And they I had to cut her left

49:46 foot off in order to fit her into the barrel.

49:49 Yeah, that just gives an idea of the trauma and the absolute

49:54 horrific nature of what happened.

49:57 To this poor woman and and that escalation again, like I mean to

50:01 move from burying bodies to now putting them in the barrel and

50:05 then I'm willing to cut off a limb like to me that.

50:10 And is this more like, do you see this more as a well, I'm

50:12 keeping my trophies now like, so you've buried a body elsewhere?

50:16 And yeah, I can't be. With them, I can't be, I can't

50:18 see them because the fucked up thing is Bunting would actually

50:22 go and look at these bodies sometimes.

50:24 Yeah, he, he had a shed out the back of their place where he

50:26 kept these. The smell, the smell it.

50:30 Must have attracted, if nothing else, animals or maggots and God

50:38 only knows what else. Well, he what he told everyone

50:41 what, what that smell was and what was in those barrels was he

50:43 told them they were Kangaroos that he, he had kangaroo meat

50:46 now and they why would you do that with Kangaroos like?

50:49 Well that's true, but he would slaughter Kangaroos on just at

50:52 home just to he was. Totally fine with that.

50:55 Yeah, and he'd like cut off their tails.

50:57 Oh my God, that is just. Yeah, I mean, kangaroo meat, it

51:01 is absolutely edible, all that sort of.

51:02 Delicious. It's love I.

51:03 Haven't eaten it ever. I can't do.

51:05 It I can't do. It no.

51:07 You know what, there's this really nice if anyone does want

51:10 to try it, Kohl's do a really nice marinated kangaroo fillet

51:15 and it's delicious. It's so Yum.

51:16 What come? It's not gamey or anything like

51:19 it's delicious. It's really, really nice.

51:20 Kangaroo, but you eat cows, you eat chicken.

51:23 Yeah, but yeah, but I think I did.

51:25 I ate that before I knew that they.

51:27 Were OK. It's far more.

51:31 I think it's to eat. Kangaroo is actually far more

51:34 environmentally friendly. Yeah, I've heard that.

51:36 Absolutely. Oh, I just, I don't know.

51:38 I just can't. I've never been able to do it.

51:39 I just, I know so many people have said to me, Oh no, it's

51:41 delicious. It really is nice.

51:44 I just can't be myself to do it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

51:47 So he had this shed where no one was allowed in there.

51:51 Now, just plain and simply, that should be a red flag if your

51:55 partner like, say, Elizabeth Harvey in this situation, living

51:57 in that place with young children.

51:59 Yeah, to then to go, OK, my partner has a space where I'm

52:03 not allowed. That's that's weird.

52:07 She was so drug. Fucked.

52:08 Oh, gotcha. Oh, absolutely.

52:10 She. Would never would probably

52:11 didn't even occur to her to think anything of it.

52:13 No, but yeah, he he, yeah, It's definitely a trophy situation

52:19 though, I think. Oh, for.

52:20 Sure. So you.

52:20 Kept them there for a long time to show, you know, Yeah.

52:24 Victim #5 is Vanessa Lane. So in our previous episode, we

52:28 spoke a lot about Barry Lane. This is the same person.

52:32 Vanessa was 42 years of age when she was killed.

52:38 What? She was Wagner's ex partner.

52:40 Go back and listen to our previous episode.

52:42 You can. You can have a you'll know

52:44 exactly how this all sort of came to be.

52:46 Yeah, she was in a relationship with Wagner when Bunting moved

52:50 to Salisbury North in 1991. And Bunting again, we alluded to

52:56 this last time. Bunting kept laying around

52:58 despite what Bunting thought about transgendered people or

53:05 gay people. And because up until a certain

53:09 point, Lane was useful to bunting and was providing

53:13 information and obviously assisting in certain disposals

53:17 of certain bodies and whatnot at a.

53:20 Point though, surely Vanessa had to start thinking maybe I'm on

53:25 his shit list. I don't know.

53:28 That's that's certainly not the way it's portrayed in the movie.

53:31 No. And but from what I can gather,

53:32 because as we spoke about last episode, his spider wall, wall

53:37 of spiders, Barry Lane was in the middle of it.

53:40 Yeah. So.

53:41 And Berlin had seen that. He'd seen the Wall.

53:44 And whether he just thought of himself as being, I'm the

53:46 informant of all of the other the outside of that.

53:48 I I suspect that's the truth, yeah.

53:51 And I think because he was at the centre of it, he probably

53:56 felt a little protected. No, maybe.

53:59 But he shouldn't have. I don't reckon she sorry.

54:02 We should. Oh, it's sorry.

54:04 We don't actually know the exact point in time when Vanessa

54:08 transitioned. So again, we're trying to be

54:10 sensitive to it, but it's like the timeline is a little bit a

54:15 little bit messy. Yeah.

54:17 Lane was accused of molesting a local boy, and then their home

54:22 was firebombed. Who did that wonder?

54:25 But that's what. True, we actually.

54:26 Did to leave the relationship to but what actually was his her

54:33 downfall. I was that he she claimed.

54:36 Well, she didn't claim. I mean, I'm sure it happened.

54:38 The the the fact that she was involved in Trezeis's.

54:41 Yeah murder in that she helped bury bury the body.

54:45 Apparently that really traumatized her.

54:46 I mean, all the horrible things that she did to people.

54:49 I've sort of don't feel sympathy for that really.

54:51 But yeah, but she spoke about the fact that Trezeis was dead

54:56 and then what she had done in that and spoke about it too.

55:00 Her mother, she'd spoken to her about, I believe to, I think she

55:06 spoke to Elizabeth Harvey about it.

55:08 Oh, OK, I didn't know that. I know Travillian was involved

55:12 in this one. Yes, she definitely like had

55:16 told him about this because that was her partner at the time,

55:19 yes, so that she was definitely sharing that information more

55:22 and more. And so Bunting decided, well,

55:26 she's now liability and decided that that was that.

55:30 Yep. Mm hmm.

55:33 It's, it's just, it's the horrific state of.

55:35 Affairs. There's another escalation here

55:38 in terms of his behaviours, Bunting's behaviours in this.

55:40 Then when she does, when he does murder Vanessa Lane in that he

55:45 on he gets onto the phone. Oh.

55:47 This gets me. Lane's mother and so in live

55:51 time, real time, she they're on the phone and he makes Lane

55:57 basically yell verbal abuse to her mother, basically saying I

56:01 fucking hate you. You know, you've always been

56:04 horrible to me. I'm leaving, I'm going to move

56:06 to Queensland. I don't want anything to do with

56:08 you. Never contact me again.

56:10 You know, this sort of stuff. He forces him to do that, her to

56:12 do that on the phone to her mother.

56:14 But the mum can hear Travellian in the background, yes,

56:19 basically telling Vanessa what to say.

56:23 Yeah, I like, what the fuck? And so the mum's like what is

56:27 going on here? It's so bizarre.

56:29 Yeah, yeah. So once again with this they

56:35 that ramps up again as well in terms of the torture when they

56:38 kill this lame yes. They they crush her toes with.

56:44 Pliers well, like before. She's dead before.

56:46 She's dead. Like they're torturing her

56:48 because they want to get her bank account information and PIN

56:51 numbers or Pins and all of that. Is what I ultimately think was

56:54 his motivation in times of this sort of stuff was like, you

56:57 know, it was in well, we need all that info too.

56:59 We need to get the money. As well.

57:00 This is where it's kind of really, I mean that, you know,

57:03 they were obviously getting the pension payments for.

57:07 Was that Suzanne Allen? And they're still getting made

57:10 money out of Davy's bank accounts, too.

57:12 As well. Yeah.

57:13 And so now they're really like this.

57:15 This seems to be a source of like, well, I guess we're

57:17 killing you. We might as well take all your

57:19 money or Yeah, any, you know, welfare payments you're gonna

57:22 receive over the next however many years.

57:25 Yeah, yeah. He also Bunting also took over

57:28 her car like so I think it was kind of a decent car too.

57:32 I think it was a good car, BMW even potentially bit of a step

57:36 up from Holden. Is that sound?

57:39 Australian of you may, yeah. So, but it was.

57:43 You know, accessing Vanessa's Centrelink payments for many

57:47 years following this. Yeah.

57:49 And Vanessa's body was found in a barrel on the 20th of May in

57:55 1999 with Gardner. Yeah.

57:58 So the two transgendered people were in a barrel together.

58:03 I find that fascinating. Oh, they were in one barrel

58:05 together? Yeah.

58:06 I thought he put them in separate barrels.

58:08 No. OK.

58:09 They were in the same barrel. Wow, Yeah, that's interesting,

58:12 isn't? It.

58:13 Yeah, yeah. I mean.

58:14 It's considered. He's obviously done that

58:16 deliberately. Yeah.

58:18 Well, I mean, is he planning? There's going to be more after

58:21 that, obviously still. Yeah, I don't know.

58:24 I mean, God, get in the mind of a serial killer.

58:28 This is it. We just can't.

58:30 No, no. OK, so now we're up to victim 6,

58:35 Thomas Eugenio Trevellian, who we were just speaking about.

58:39 Yeah. Who assisted in the?

58:40 Previous, he played a role in Yeah.

58:42 In the previous victim's demise, yeah, he was only 18 years of

58:47 age. So again.

58:50 I mean what? Influence have these older men

58:52 got and like, I mean, they obviously have a lot to answer

58:55 for. Oh.

58:56 Absolutely. I mean, Vanessa Lane traumatized

59:01 a number of young people, Yeah. So Travillian was, as we

59:07 mentioned, Vanessa's last partner.

59:09 There was a 24 year age gap. Eww.

59:15 He suffers. Oh, absolutely.

59:17 He suffered from paranoid schizophrenia, which made him

59:21 think he was a soldier, so he would always wear like army

59:25 fatigues and stuff. So he's quite out there.

59:30 There was an incident though, where he was playing out on the

59:35 the lawn out the front with with kids again.

59:36 And this is the thing around all of these in these murders, there

59:40 are young children in running around in amongst all of this.

59:44 It's and this is just awful life like this is the way.

59:47 They crop up like it's just horrendous.

59:50 Travillian in At this moment he's chasing after a dog and he

59:54 wanted to kill it. He had a knife and.

59:57 Everything. Travillian wanted to kill the

59:58 dog. Yeah.

1:00:00 Oh. OK, yeah so he was chasing it

1:00:02 down to to try and kill it and he was stopped.

1:00:06 It didn't occur. However, this was the the

1:00:09 trigger moment for Bunting to then say Travillian is a

1:00:13 liability. Is this where he's like our

1:00:15 Travillian's gone mental? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:00:17 So OK, but hunting's killed animals in the past.

1:00:22 What the fuck? Like he fucking regularly

1:00:24 regularly. And he, he basically like

1:00:28 butchers, Kangaroos and shit. Like, it's not, it's not like

1:00:32 he's solo in this practice. No, no, yeah.

1:00:35 So I mean, that's what I mean by he's he changes his reason.

1:00:39 He finds a reason all the time. You know what I mean?

1:00:40 That's like it's. And like you can see from like

1:00:43 92, his next murder wasn't until like 95, but you're getting up

1:00:47 around the 97 and they he starts pinging them pretty quick enough

1:00:51 for that, you know, like it's. Yeah, you're right.

1:00:52 There's a real escalation to it. And like, obviously there's not

1:00:55 a hell of a lot of time. I don't believe.

1:00:57 And we don't know exact dates. Oh, no, we do.

1:00:59 Sorry. This was November 1997.

1:01:01 Fourth of November. Yeah.

1:01:02 So I mean, between Lane and Trevelyan's demise, there wasn't

1:01:09 a hell of a lot of time. No.

1:01:11 So he really has gone off the back of one and kind of gone.

1:01:15 Yeah, we've got a we'll knock that one off, too.

1:01:17 And maybe more so the fact of Trevellian being an accomplice

1:01:21 to Lane's death maybe had him a bit, you know, like, yeah, he's

1:01:25 not someone I want to keep around.

1:01:26 He might now be, actually. I mean, if he's a paranoid

1:01:28 schizophrenic, I mean, he's probably acting in a fairly

1:01:32 erratic way. Yeah, I guess he is a liability

1:01:34 because God only knows what's going to happen and if he really

1:01:37 thinks he's in the Army, maybe, you know, he'll have a crisis of

1:01:41 conscience and be telling someone about that or yeah, I

1:01:44 guess they just didn't know what was going to happen.

1:01:46 No, unfortunately, previous to his death, Travellian had

1:01:52 actually attempted suicide a number of times and and this was

1:01:55 known in the community and to his family.

1:01:59 And so the way that this, his murder was actually perpetrated

1:02:04 was that he was driven to Kers Brook in Adelaide Hills by

1:02:08 Bunting and Wagner and he was hung from a tree.

1:02:11 So when, and he was then found by, oh, I'm just trying to think

1:02:16 now, how was he found? Somebody was walking past.

1:02:18 It was on a farm, I think. And was it a farmer sort of saw

1:02:22 something and yeah, and went over to him and obviously found

1:02:26 that he'd been hanging. They've called the police.

1:02:27 The police have come and the police are like, well, this is a

1:02:29 pretty clear cut suicide. No further real investigation

1:02:33 had taken place once they'd realized or once they've

1:02:35 investigated the fact that he'd actually made previous attempts

1:02:38 attempts on his life. Yeah, the coroner very quickly

1:02:41 just determined it as a suicide. Suicide.

1:02:43 And so we're still not, you know, we're still not having red

1:02:47 flags. Buntings not being implicated,

1:02:51 No, Wagner's not being implicated and left with a dead

1:02:55 18 year old victim #7 was Gavin Allen Porter.

1:02:59 He was 29 years of age and one of Lesakis friends, so one of

1:03:04 Jamie's friends. He was a schizophrenic as well

1:03:07 and had grown up for a majority of his life, a huge portion of

1:03:12 his life in mental institutions. God, this poor kid just had a

1:03:18 had a bit of, a bit of a rough trot following.

1:03:23 So his mother had actually passed away when he was really

1:03:25 young too. And he moved from Melbourne to

1:03:28 Adelaide at that time, which I think was in 1997 when she

1:03:33 passed away. And he met and moved in with

1:03:36 Vlasakis pretty quickly. So again, I'm like.

1:03:39 They just collected these people.

1:03:41 They. Really did.

1:03:42 And they collected people who had no one else and no one

1:03:45 looking for them. Porter was.

1:03:47 Considerably older than Vlasakis too.

1:03:49 So 10 years older than him. Yeah, at least.

1:03:51 Yep, Yep. I mean, yeah, quite actually 12

1:03:54 years, probably older than Vasakis, like it's.

1:03:57 But he was a heroin addict and Vasakis was deep into his

1:04:01 addiction at this point, so they probably found kinship in that.

1:04:04 Oh, absolutely. Yeah, yeah.

1:04:08 They even moved house at one point and and Porter moved with

1:04:11 them. Yeah, that's right.

1:04:13 Yes, I remember. Yeah, that's it.

1:04:15 Yeah. So he was like, well and truly

1:04:18 in in with them. Yeah, and like, because of his

1:04:20 drug use, Bunting hated him. Yeah, he couldn't stand him.

1:04:24 He. Said Porter was a waste and

1:04:27 didn't deserve to live. Yeah.

1:04:29 Yeah. Cool.

1:04:30 Yeah, well, I guess once Bunting's decided that you're

1:04:32 not worthy of life, then watch out because.

1:04:36 I reckon this this one was where for Sakis, Well really, this is

1:04:41 where it became. It changed the shit show for

1:04:43 him. Yeah, I think the situation

1:04:45 changed for him, Yeah. Bunting was actually sat down on

1:04:49 a couch at home and was pricked by a used needle that Porter had

1:04:54 left on the couch. And so that incited, that was

1:04:58 the trigger point. Like we've talked about that in

1:05:00 all of the victims so far, there was a trigger point.

1:05:03 It didn't have to be much. I mean, I I mean, I think I went

1:05:06 with the new syringe either, but yeah.

1:05:08 Like, that was sort of the flashpoint and Yeah.

1:05:11 And where, you know, things kind of took a bit of a turn and they

1:05:14 decided, right, it's your turn, Yes.

1:05:17 Bunting and Wagner attacked him when he was asleep in his car.

1:05:21 So he was while he was living with them, I guess he actually

1:05:24 was just living out of his car on their property.

1:05:27 So they didn't even have the decency to let him live in the

1:05:29 house with them. Yeah.

1:05:31 And he was. He was probably so lost.

1:05:33 And so, like, what else was this poor boy to do?

1:05:36 His mother had died. He was schizophrenic.

1:05:38 So he obviously had his own battles and struggles.

1:05:42 Yeah. And he was obviously a heroin

1:05:44 addict as well. And he's living out of his car.

1:05:49 So sad. Absolutely, but so when so

1:05:52 obviously they they attacked him while he was asleep, but as he

1:05:55 woke up he actually managed to stab Bunting in his hand with a

1:05:58 screwdriver. Good on him.

1:06:01 Fucking great. This is the only time where I've

1:06:04 reported Bunting having any sort of negative repercussions for

1:06:08 any of his crimes. Absolutely.

1:06:10 But yeah, he unfortunately, I mean, Wagner was a big bloke

1:06:12 because we've said he did overpower him fairly quickly and

1:06:17 easily. Yeah, easily.

1:06:18 And he so he was strangled. They then so they performed the

1:06:23 the murder was done, but they presented the body to Vasakis.

1:06:28 You know, just sort of this is your.

1:06:30 Friend, how did they do that? Was it after they put him in the

1:06:33 barrel or? Before they put him, before they

1:06:35 put him in the barrel, I think no, yeah, because Vasakis

1:06:39 vomited and yeah, everything I know side of it all.

1:06:42 I know later on as well, though, they made Vasakis go and look at

1:06:46 his body in the barrel like they were like, look at what?

1:06:48 Because yeah, again, they wanted him to be.

1:06:51 And you're like, oh fuck, I'm involved with this.

1:06:53 This is like on me too. Yeah, I know this.

1:06:56 Draw him in entirely like you're.

1:06:57 You're now connected to this. You're.

1:06:59 Part of this, this is actually like we go down and see this

1:07:02 body, this is you. Yeah, because he also was, I

1:07:05 think in this was trying to get him off the drugs.

1:07:07 Yeah, because I mean, well, let's be honest, if you're

1:07:11 killing Porter because he's on drugs, well then therefore

1:07:15 forsake this is the same. So he really wanted he wanted

1:07:19 Lasarcus to be his disciple, not the same as Porter.

1:07:22 So this was his opportunity to sort of go, this could be you or

1:07:26 you could be me, you know, like. And so it's basically pick which

1:07:29 one you're going to be the one in the barrel or the one putting

1:07:32 them in the barrel. I mean, what a position to be in

1:07:35 as a, you know, at the time, a 17 year old.

1:07:37 Oh. Horrendous, Absolutely

1:07:40 horrendous. Yeah, Yeah.

1:07:42 That was a real, I think, yeah. Turning point for Vlasakis big

1:07:45 time. Absolutely.

1:07:46 Agreed. We now have Troy Yud.

1:07:50 So victim #8 yeah. He was 21 years of age.

1:07:53 He was the half brother of Vlasakis.

1:07:56 So he was older than Vlasakis, had a different dad, same mum.

1:08:00 Yeah. Vlasakis confided in Bunting

1:08:02 that you'd sexually assaulted him when he was thirteen years

1:08:05 old. So they, you know, I mean,

1:08:09 Vlasakis, obviously we talk about this in the first part of

1:08:14 this of this podcast. Vlasakis was a victim from a

1:08:19 very, very young age and the fact that his half brother

1:08:24 perpetrated sexual assault against him when he was 13, he's

1:08:29 horrific. It's absolutely horrible.

1:08:32 Yeah, well, I mean, he's his half brother.

1:08:34 Troy would have been, what, 16 when he perpetrated that against

1:08:37 his younger brother. I mean, it's just, I mean.

1:08:39 But then what happened to Troy? You know, like the.

1:08:41 Same thing happened to him. It was his step dad did it to

1:08:44 him. Exactly.

1:08:44 It's cyclical. It's like, oh.

1:08:46 It's generational. It's yeah, yeah.

1:08:48 Awful how you get out of that cycle.

1:08:51 I mean, God, yeah. The way that the murder of Troy

1:08:55 came about though, this gets me. So sorry.

1:08:59 Bunting and Wagner woke Lasakas up one night and was like,

1:09:03 right, you've got to kill Troy, it's on you, you've got to do

1:09:06 it. He, he sexually assaulted you.

1:09:09 You take that back, you take his life now.

1:09:12 And I'm guessing like at this point, what the fuck was Lasakas

1:09:16 to do? If he didn't do that, then what

1:09:21 would have come of him? So they beat him while he was

1:09:26 asleep. As in Troy you'd was asleep.

1:09:29 They beat him and Lasaka's handcuffed him and I think the

1:09:32 other two men, like, bound his legs.

1:09:35 I think. Yeah.

1:09:35 And they started to strangle him.

1:09:38 They used the pliers again on his toes.

1:09:40 They took him into the bathroom I think this time because I'm

1:09:42 guessing cleanup's easier. In the bathroom.

1:09:44 Yeah, you. Can just wash the bath out and I

1:09:47 think a lot of you know. Yeah, I think a lot of them took

1:09:49 place like that, yeah. The the toe thing gets.

1:09:53 Better, Well they did it again. What so learnt from the other

1:09:56 occasion where he had Lane do it live on the phone to, you know,

1:10:00 tell other people that he was going away and disappearing.

1:10:04 This time he decided Bunting decided to use a recording, so

1:10:08 whilst crushing his toes with pliers, he would coax out of

1:10:12 them. Well, bank details all those

1:10:14 sorts of things, but also record messages and sentences so that

1:10:19 he could then use those recordings to make phone calls

1:10:21 later. Or someone rang saying have you

1:10:23 seen Troy? You know?

1:10:25 Oh, yeah, He's here. Hang on.

1:10:26 Wait. Fuck off.

1:10:26 I don't want to be, you know, I don't want to speak to you.

1:10:28 Like he'd record these messages that he could use then later.

1:10:31 OK. That's that's great.

1:10:33 Yeah. OK.

1:10:34 Yep. Good forward thinking on on your

1:10:36 bunting. But when you're being tortured

1:10:38 and your your toes are being crushed by pliers, yeah, you're

1:10:42 not going to sound all that convincing, are you?

1:10:43 You're like. No.

1:10:45 I know right now I'd be like, you know, you wouldn't sound

1:10:49 normal. You wouldn't sound like

1:10:50 yourself. So were they convincing?

1:10:53 I don't know. Well, they were convincing

1:10:55 enough that nobody was looking for these people, but.

1:10:57 But nobody would have been looking for Troy anyway, aside

1:10:59 from potentially his mother and. Knew.

1:11:02 She knew about it, so and she was implicated in it, so there

1:11:07 was no real need for that. I don't really understand the

1:11:10 recordings in this situation. No, but I mean, he did have at

1:11:16 least the forethought that, you know, if you're doing it live,

1:11:18 the person could call out I'm being murdered by by this

1:11:20 person, that person, you know, like on the phone call.

1:11:24 So at least he could avoid that by recording it.

1:11:28 But who's he didn't end up using the recordings?

1:11:30 Like who would he have used them on?

1:11:31 I. Don't know.

1:11:33 Yeah, I don't know. I don't know.

1:11:34 I don't know. Yeah, yeah, who knows?

1:11:37 Troy's body was then also put in a barrel and was one of the one

1:11:43 of the one of the bodies in the barrel that was kept in the

1:11:46 Snowtown Bank vault. Yes.

1:11:49 OK, victim #9 we have, we're nearly there.

1:11:53 It's so much. I know it is so much.

1:11:57 We have Frederick Brooks, who was 18 years old now.

1:12:01 Again, the bloody web of kind. Of connections.

1:12:04 The connections, yeah. So Frederick or Fred, is he

1:12:07 Freddie? Freddie was it that he went by?

1:12:10 Yeah, I think so. I think.

1:12:11 Was the son of Jodie Elliott, who was the sister of Hayden's

1:12:15 wife. He moved to SA in 1997.

1:12:22 Sorry. She.

1:12:23 Jodie moved to SA in 1997 to be closer to her sister and

1:12:27 obviously brought her kids with her.

1:12:29 Yeah. Bunting became obsessed with the

1:12:31 fact that he thought Brooks was touching little girls.

1:12:37 He told people that, you know, something has to happen to him.

1:12:41 He's touching up little. Girls.

1:12:42 But it sounded to me as if this guy was actually someone who was

1:12:46 on a path to get out of this horrendous environment.

1:12:50 For sure, and there's literally no evidence to suggest that he

1:12:53 was touching up little girls. No, he literally had been

1:12:57 notified that he had been accepted into the Australian Air

1:12:59 Force as a cadet. As a cadet, yeah.

1:13:01 I mean, that's not an easy thing necessarily to get into.

1:13:04 I mean the Air Force, you need to be able to meet certain

1:13:07 criteria. Absolutely.

1:13:08 But also the fact that he even had the goal to to go out there

1:13:12 and apply and try to get into that, that shows that he was

1:13:15 fundamentally a different person to everyone else he was growing

1:13:18 up around. Absolutely.

1:13:19 He wanted out. Yeah.

1:13:21 So this is what I'm saying when when I say that you've got a

1:13:25 choice in life. Yeah, so he's had a fucking shit

1:13:28 upbringing too. Like his background isn't that

1:13:30 much better than any of the rest.

1:13:31 Of it, I mean, why would you choose to uplift your children

1:13:35 from somewhere and your child, one of them being one?

1:13:38 That's like wanting to get out and go join the Air Force cadets

1:13:41 and take pick them up and go, hey, let's go move next door to

1:13:43 or nearby my sister who is involved in all this shit.

1:13:48 Yes, what? So what the fuck?

1:13:51 Like this kid was, you know, he was going places, he was getting

1:13:56 out. He'd made some really good

1:13:58 choices in his life. And yet fucking Bunting decided.

1:14:03 On he did a number on him too. Like it's horrible.

1:14:06 Just. Horrible.

1:14:07 So what they did was now he was a young boy, right?

1:14:10 Really. He was a young kid when this

1:14:11 happened. 18 Vasakis, Bunting and Wagner invited him to a

1:14:17 party. I put that in inverted inverted

1:14:20 quotes in comers. They basically lured him to his

1:14:24 death. It was like, let's go celebrate

1:14:26 the fact that you've got into the cadets.

1:14:27 Yeah, let's go and have a few beers, mate.

1:14:29 Like, this is great. We're so proud of you.

1:14:33 They tortured him, tied him, put him in the bath.

1:14:37 They put lit cigarettes in his nostrils and ears.

1:14:40 And this is the bit that was against me.

1:14:42 They lit a sparkler and inserted it into his urethra.

1:14:46 God. Oh.

1:14:49 He was alive at that point. Yeah, he was alive.

1:14:51 Yeah, he was alive when that happened.

1:14:53 They again got him to record things into a device, this one.

1:14:58 I can understand this one like he's going to have to they're

1:15:01 going to have to explain his disappearance or his the fact

1:15:05 that he's no longer around to his mom.

1:15:06 I'm. Not turning up to the cadets,

1:15:07 like I don't know. They got him to divulge his bank

1:15:10 information. They also injected via syringe

1:15:15 bleach into his testicles. It was also wired up to some

1:15:23 sort of electrical impulse. Device.

1:15:25 Yeah, they they, they wired his testicles to an electrical

1:15:30 current and were like zapping him.

1:15:33 Full torture. Like, full, full, full blown

1:15:35 torture. I mean, there's such escalation

1:15:39 with each of these. Yeah, in terms of that, yeah,

1:15:42 Bunting was enjoying himself. Well he was getting great

1:15:45 pleasure out of all this Again. This poor kids toes were crushed

1:15:49 with pliers. Mm hmm that just gets me.

1:15:51 Like the thought of that is just horrible.

1:15:53 Oh, absolutely. His cause of death actually was

1:15:56 choking on the gag that they taped into his mouth.

1:15:58 Yeah, yeah, yeah. So he had to endure all of that

1:16:02 torture and again, his was one of the bodies that were found in

1:16:05 the barrels in the Snow Town vault.

1:16:08 Victim #10 Gary O'dwyer, 29 years of age, mentally and

1:16:12 physically disabled. He was a neighbor of Buntings at

1:16:16 the time. Bunting called him a fag.

1:16:20 Like. The language used is just

1:16:24 absolutely horrific. Vlasakis on instruction of

1:16:30 bunting because now Vlasakis was really deep in this.

1:16:34 He was really starting to being like actively involved in the

1:16:41 murders. So again, you're we're seeing

1:16:42 escalation from from his side as well coaxed him into, coaxed his

1:16:49 bank details out of him. Again, we're doing this for

1:16:51 financial motivation. Yes, this, this one he, well,

1:16:54 that is considered purely a financial target.

1:16:56 Mm hmm. There wasn't really any other

1:16:57 motivation in terms of whether he was a paedophile.

1:17:00 Or not? So do you think they they picked

1:17:02 him because they were like, oh, he must have a good amount of

1:17:04 money? Like what?

1:17:05 That because of his. Yeah, he had to set up like a

1:17:07 good. Level of welfare.

1:17:09 Because of his disabilities. Yeah, yeah.

1:17:12 Fucking disgusting. Oh, yeah, Because he, he was

1:17:15 really. Yeah.

1:17:17 The thing that gets me is they lured him to the pub.

1:17:20 They they were like, hey mate, let's go and have a beer

1:17:23 together. And poor old he.

1:17:24 Thinks he's Gary and friends like it's just.

1:17:27 Horrible. They grabbed his throat.

1:17:30 They strangled him. They tortured him for many hours

1:17:33 before his ultimate death. I think his cause of death was

1:17:37 strangulation. Yeah.

1:17:39 And again, he was one of the bodies.

1:17:41 His body was found in the vault in Snow Town.

1:17:45 Yeah. Barrel.

1:17:47 Oh, the next one's a spicy one. Yeah, it is.

1:17:50 Yep, yes #11 this is where we get to Mark Hayden's wife,

1:17:57 Elizabeth Hayden. So obviously this is so Mark

1:18:02 Hayden's wife and also Fred Frederick Brooks, who was victim

1:18:07 number. I want to say seven.

1:18:10 I've lost my page. Where are you Freddy #9?

1:18:14 #9 no. So, yeah, So victor #9's aunt

1:18:18 also, and Mark Hayden, who at this point in time is an

1:18:23 accessory to all of this. He is storing the barrels on his

1:18:26 property. He is helping move things around

1:18:30 but don't believe participated in the actual murders.

1:18:34 He certainly was never convicted of participating in the murders,

1:18:37 but he absolutely what he's covered them up and assisted his

1:18:41 disposal and whatnot. Yeah, yeah.

1:18:43 So basically what was going on was that Mark, he wasn't, he was

1:18:47 not bright at all, but his intelligence level was very low,

1:18:50 is very low, I should say. He disclosed that he was

1:18:54 disclosing this information to his wife.

1:18:56 Yep. So that Elizabeth Hayden was

1:18:58 aware of what was going on. The scene where they depict this

1:19:02 in the Snowtown movie I found very chilling.

1:19:06 So the way that it's depicted in the movie is that he basically

1:19:11 says to like, in a really sheepish way, He says to

1:19:14 Bunting. Oh, Elizabeth knows, mate.

1:19:18 And Bunting is like, well, at the time I think he's like, oh,

1:19:24 that's all right, yeah, no worries, no worries.

1:19:26 Then decides. Turns out it's actually not OK.

1:19:30 Yeah, well, apparently he just really hated her.

1:19:32 Just didn't like her as a person.

1:19:35 What had she done to him? Yeah, beyond the fact of her

1:19:38 knowing things, it was he just genuinely just didn't like it.

1:19:42 Yeah, maybe because she didn't find him attractive or

1:19:44 something. Probably.

1:19:45 You know what? Probably.

1:19:48 Yeah. Fucking cock head.

1:19:50 Oh yeah. So.

1:19:54 She because he considered her a whore.

1:19:56 That's right. And a lowlife.

1:19:58 I've got that written down as well, but she wasn't a whore.

1:20:01 She and Mark had been together for a long time, I think.

1:20:04 Yeah, yeah. Oh.

1:20:07 Fucking the judgment, the judgment.

1:20:10 The bunting too. Imagine being judged by bunting.

1:20:12 Oh, God. But no, what a piece of shit in

1:20:14 Mark Hayden in this situation, particularly like, you know,

1:20:17 Bunting and Wagner have just, like, arrived at their home and

1:20:20 just gone. Well, yeah.

1:20:21 So it's time. It's time.

1:20:23 We've got to do it. We've got to do this to

1:20:25 Elizabeth. Yeah, yeah.

1:20:26 So I think at the time of the murder, though, Mark and the

1:20:32 children were out of the house. So I don't know whether that was

1:20:34 orchestrated or not. Yeah, I assume it was.

1:20:37 I reckon totally, yeah. Why would Mark look after his

1:20:39 children? Yeah, because otherwise that is

1:20:42 true. Actually, otherwise he really

1:20:44 didn't have much to do with the upbringing of his kids.

1:20:46 No, but he'd taken them out for the.

1:20:48 Yeah, good point. Yeah, it was absolutely

1:20:49 orchestrated. Yeah.

1:20:51 They dragged her to the bathroom and tortured and killed her in

1:20:53 her own home. Yeah, they put to rope around

1:20:56 her neck, a gag in her mouth, and when Hayden was shown the

1:21:01 remains of his wife, apparently he laughed.

1:21:06 Laughed. This is his wife.

1:21:09 Yep. She could have been the biggest

1:21:12 piece of shit known to man, which she wasn't.

1:21:16 She was doing her best, you know, being a wife and mum.

1:21:21 But he laughed, laughed at the sight of her dead body.

1:21:25 Oh, my God. Now I'm imagining this as a

1:21:28 laugh that was that of, I don't know, humour maybe or not.

1:21:36 Maybe not. I don't know.

1:21:37 Or was it a laugh of like, you know how some people when

1:21:40 they're in a really awkward or uncomfortable situation or they

1:21:44 don't know how to react? Yeah, they're they laugh.

1:21:48 I think we talked about this in the Jonbenet Ramsay episode,

1:21:51 especially in relation to Burke. And whenever he speaks about Jon

1:21:56 Benet and he smiles or he, yeah, he's got a really odd demeanor

1:22:01 about it. Different.

1:22:02 I mean, go back and listen to our Jon Benet Ramsey episode.

1:22:04 But was that the reaction that he was having, that Mark was

1:22:09 having, or was it? I get the.

1:22:11 Feeling no same. And certainly the way that it's

1:22:14 depicted in the movie is not like that.

1:22:16 It's like it's. I think it was he was, he was

1:22:19 again so enamoured with Bunting and being part of that, the boys

1:22:24 part of that crew, that it was like.

1:22:27 The fact that he even confessed to Bunting that he'd told his

1:22:30 wife, I think he probably knew what was going to come of that.

1:22:33 Yeah, I know he wasn't a really intelligent person, but like,

1:22:37 surely on some level he'd know that that's that has to be the

1:22:41 reaction that Bunting is going to have, right?

1:22:43 Yeah. I mean, I guess at a level you

1:22:44 kind of go, well, you'd assume I'm telling my wife, wouldn't

1:22:46 you? Like she's in on it as equally

1:22:49 as much as I am. I actually don't.

1:22:53 I don't know. I don't know.

1:22:56 Again, we can't get in the minds of a serial killer because we're

1:23:00 not and. Then they've bloody put her body

1:23:03 into a barrel on their own property like it's just so

1:23:07 fucked. I don't know when exactly when

1:23:10 it was exactly that they'd moved the barrels.

1:23:12 It was within the preceding six weeks.

1:23:15 Yeah. So after her death, they've

1:23:18 moved the barrels to the bank. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:23:22 And we now come to our final victim and the only victim who

1:23:27 was actually murdered in Snowtown.

1:23:30 So the final victim is David Johnson.

1:23:33 He was 24 years of age at the time of his death.

1:23:37 He was Flasakis's stepbrother. Yeah.

1:23:40 And Bunting hated him because he was really clean, really well

1:23:45 presented and very fastidious about his appearance.

1:23:50 Like his appearance really mattered to him.

1:23:52 So that that just equals. Apparently that makes you gay.

1:23:55 Gay yuppie? Yeah, he called him a faggot.

1:23:58 Like. Oh, Yup.

1:24:00 Oh, it's. Just such an awful word.

1:24:03 Yuck. Yeah.

1:24:04 Could he just. Yeah.

1:24:06 Just because he's clean and fastidious.

1:24:08 Whether or not he was gay. Or not.

1:24:10 He's irrelevant. We don't even know.

1:24:11 Like I don't. Don't know.

1:24:12 No, no, no we don't. Know he just made a conclusion

1:24:15 of like, well, now he's got to go because he's clean.

1:24:17 Yeah, so Bunting basically said to Flossar because we've got to

1:24:20 get him and on the well, I. Used to used to use words like

1:24:23 he'd say like, we're going to take him to the clinic.

1:24:25 Oh yeah, Headley's like. Code word.

1:24:30 Oh yeah, code. Word.

1:24:31 But they like fucking. What else does that freaking

1:24:33 mean? Yeah, take him to the clinic.

1:24:35 You mean the bathroom so we can torture him?

1:24:38 Marshall of the evidence down the drain, yeah.

1:24:42 Oh, he's. So foul on the 9th of May 1999,

1:24:45 he was murdered. And Vlasakis told Johnson there

1:24:48 were cheap computers for sale in Snowtown.

1:24:51 Yeah. And could they, you know, pop

1:24:53 down there and have a look at them?

1:24:55 And so Flasak has travelled with Johnson from Salisbury to

1:25:01 Snowtown. And they go into the bank.

1:25:04 And what comes next? This this was part of the movie

1:25:08 where I got really I. Actually didn't watch this bit.

1:25:10 I couldn't. It's so hard to watch.

1:25:13 It was actually so, so hard to watch.

1:25:15 Yeah. Because you know what's coming.

1:25:16 You know, he's been lured there under false pretenses, and he's

1:25:21 complete. I'm not saying any of the

1:25:23 victims deserved what they got, but this boy, this man is

1:25:27 completely innocent of anything. Yeah, and they've just lured him

1:25:32 there for the literal purpose of killing him because Bunting

1:25:37 didn't like him. Yeah, yeah.

1:25:40 He entered the building and was overtaken by Bunting and Wagner.

1:25:43 So if Lasakas kind of went into the building behind him and then

1:25:48 they this is a another further escalation.

1:25:51 Oh yeah. They then Wagner and Bunting

1:25:53 then cut off a piece of his flesh, fried it and ate it.

1:25:58 Yeah. We're talking cannibalism now.

1:26:02 What's the escalation of the behaviours in these murders Is

1:26:08 just almost like what you would call textbook, Yes, isn't it

1:26:11 like it's it is just. And what would have happened?

1:26:15 What would have happened if? What would be the next one?

1:26:17 I don't even want to know. How do you go beyond?

1:26:19 I literally don't want. To know how do you go beyond

1:26:21 cannibalism? Like I don't even know or.

1:26:22 Inserting sparklers in someone's penis.

1:26:24 Yeah, I I my mind just boggles at it that this was what they

1:26:29 would Well, yeah. Oh, how do you?

1:26:33 Think up these things. I don't even.

1:26:35 What made him think that? I mean, literally, it was like,

1:26:37 almost like, what else has left to do?

1:26:38 Well, we might as well eat them now.

1:26:40 Yeah. God, yeah.

1:26:43 So both both Bunting and Wagner ate that flesh.

1:26:47 Gross. So fucking gross.

1:26:52 So, yeah. So obviously they put Johnson's

1:26:55 body in another barrel whilst at the bank there.

1:26:58 And then on the 20th of May, which was only like, well, less

1:27:02 than 11 days later, yeah, they were.

1:27:05 The bodies in the barrel were discovered at the bank, so it

1:27:08 was fairly close to that. This was, we should say it was

1:27:11 Hayden who had leased the space. And this is how this all came

1:27:15 about, because they were looking for Hayden's wife.

1:27:19 And so obviously they're in trying to investigate that.

1:27:23 They look for any holdings that the family may have.

1:27:26 And fucking Hayden had rented the bank in his own name.

1:27:29 So they're like, Oh well, we need to go and check out what's

1:27:32 there. And that's how they found the

1:27:35 barrels. Yeah.

1:27:36 So obviously in the barrels, they've then found 8 victims in

1:27:39 six barrels. Mm hmm.

1:27:42 In the disused bank vault which they sealed up with all this

1:27:45 plastic and stuff like trying to trap the smell in as much I

1:27:48 guess as they could, but didn't do a great job of that.

1:27:51 I think, I think from what they, what the police have said, the

1:27:55 vault did trap a lot. Yes.

1:27:57 Oh, When they opened it, it was poor.

1:28:00 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Bad.

1:28:01 Yeah. So obviously, yeah, so 8 bodies

1:28:04 were in those six barrels, obviously some distributed

1:28:06 across more than one barrel. And we've discussed that they

1:28:09 would, you know, to try and do all that what they had to do.

1:28:11 Yeah. But then obviously there were

1:28:14 the two victims found buried in the property of of Buntings.

1:28:19 And then obviously Trevelyan, who was found suicide, was

1:28:24 claimed to be suicide at the time.

1:28:26 They then realized and connecting all the dots that was

1:28:27 put together that he is one of these victims as well.

1:28:31 And also then. Travis as well was added to that

1:28:35 list to make the 12 who and his body had been put into a shallow

1:28:38 grave on the farm so. I think, you know, all testament

1:28:42 to the police for putting these dots together because they

1:28:44 actually came about the rest of putting it all together pretty

1:28:48 bloody quickly because, yeah, the day after they discovered

1:28:51 the bodies in the barrels, they arrested Bunting and Wagner and

1:28:54 Hayden, actually, Yeah. And they charged them with

1:28:57 murder at that time. So they had enough evidence

1:29:00 within 24 hours. Now I know there was a fairly

1:29:03 there was some they were gathering already, starting to

1:29:06 gather some ideas, but they had, they certainly did not think

1:29:10 that when they opened that bank vault they'd find 8 bodies in

1:29:13 six barrels by any stretch. No, they had like separately, I

1:29:16 think in terms of investigating missing persons, yeah, they had

1:29:19 started going, well, this name's coming up a lot.

1:29:21 That name's coming up and they were connecting things, but not

1:29:24 quite. To this but this kind of put it

1:29:26 all together. Yeah, they just take a few more

1:29:28 days. I think it was 26th of May that

1:29:30 they actually. Arrested Vlasakis as well.

1:29:32 And I believe that was because of like, once they'd interviewed

1:29:38 Bunting, Wagner and Hayden, it became more evident that

1:29:41 Vlasakis was involved. Yeah.

1:29:43 So I mean, obviously they knew Vlasakis was.

1:29:46 He was living with living with Bunting.

1:29:49 Yeah. But I mean, he was still such a

1:29:51 young man, I. Guess at 19 at that point.

1:29:53 Yeah, yeah, a little bit of time.

1:29:54 So apparently Vlasakis in his first interview, he gave about

1:29:59 150 page statement. Yeah, great.

1:30:03 Gave a fair amount of detail as to what his involvement was and

1:30:06 what had happened. When he was then presented with

1:30:10 the fact of like what he was going to be charged with and

1:30:12 obviously what the others were going to be eventually charged

1:30:14 with. He actually then decided to give

1:30:18 another statement which was like 2 1/2 thousand pages long.

1:30:23 So which is what meant that him doing that meant that he did get

1:30:28 a slightly lesser sentence, I think helped him in that.

1:30:32 Respect, I believe in that process agreed to plead guilty

1:30:37 so that that he didn't have to be taken to trial.

1:30:40 Yeah. And so that obviously accounted

1:30:42 for like a slightly reduced yeah charge sheet and therefore

1:30:47 sentence. So look, I guess at this point

1:30:51 you can kind of look at that, that Flosakis was, you know,

1:30:55 maybe somewhat repenting for what he'd done, trying to make

1:31:00 things right, trying to do the right thing, because that

1:31:02 certainly was not. The case, I mean, certainly

1:31:05 looking after Bunting Wagner in that moment too, Like I I get

1:31:09 that. Because no one else was going to

1:31:10 look after him. Bunting, Wagner and Hayden

1:31:13 absolutely did not do that and they ensured that their cases

1:31:17 were taken to court. Absolutely.

1:31:20 So Bunting and Wagner, their trial lasted for 12 months.

1:31:23 It was the longest trial in South Australian history to that

1:31:27 point. I don't know if since that

1:31:28 that's still I would think so I would I mean 12 months.

1:31:31 This is the biggest case of a serial killer in Australia.

1:31:35 Yeah, like the, you know. Yeah, I dare say this would be

1:31:37 the longest. Still standing.

1:31:39 Yeah. So in December of 2003, the

1:31:42 trial concluded and Bunting was convicted of 11 of the murders.

1:31:46 We explained why it wasn't 12. Susan Allen not being able to be

1:31:50 convicted for that murder, Yeah. See it Wagner was convicted of

1:31:53 10 of the murders. He.

1:31:55 Only confessed to three, yes. So yeah.

1:31:59 Why did he confess to three? No idea, no idea.

1:32:02 Lasakas, as we said, pleaded guilty to, in the end, 4

1:32:06 murders. And so and then in 2004, so the

1:32:11 following year, Hayden was convicted of five counts of

1:32:14 assisting with murders, even though he only admitted to two

1:32:16 of them. He only and and admitted only to

1:32:18 assisting them. He's never, he's never admitted

1:32:21 and never been charged with any of the actual murders and.

1:32:24 There's no, there's no evidence to support a conviction, A yeah,

1:32:32 a conviction for murder on his behalf.

1:32:33 So. Yeah, yeah, I think there were

1:32:37 two further murders that he could have been charged with.

1:32:40 Oh, right. But the the jury.

1:32:43 Couldn't come to a version. OK.

1:32:45 Yeah. Yeah.

1:32:46 So at sentencing, the judge basically said that Bunting was

1:32:50 the ringleader. He fully acknowledged the fact

1:32:52 that if it wasn't for him, a lot of this probably wouldn't have

1:32:55 taken place. Yeah, he was given 11.

1:32:59 So Bunting was given 11 consecutive life terms without

1:33:02 the possibility of parole. Wagner was given 10 life

1:33:07 sentences under the same conditions.

1:33:09 And Wagner as he was being sentenced.

1:33:14 Yes. Said like made a statement to

1:33:17 the court. I don't think he was allowed to,

1:33:19 but he did. No, they sometimes they do say.

1:33:21 I don't think he was allowed to. I believe he yelled this out as

1:33:24 he was kind of being walked out. Yeah, Yeah.

1:33:27 He said pedophiles were doing terrible things to children.

1:33:30 The authorities didn't do anything about it.

1:33:32 I decided to take action. I took action.

1:33:34 Thank you. Like he's fucking war cry.

1:33:37 Like no mate, no. No, because not all these

1:33:41 people. Well, there's no evidence,

1:33:43 actually, other than probably lying.

1:33:45 Yeah. To say that they were

1:33:46 pedophiles. Yep.

1:33:48 Yeah. Lasakas was given four life

1:33:51 sentences with a 26 year non parole period.

1:33:55 Yeah, and Hayden was given 25 years, 18 years non parole.

1:33:58 And in February of 2004 he was actually granted parole.

1:34:02 Apparently his behaviour in prison was excellent.

1:34:06 I, I, I'd love to hear your thoughts on him walking out

1:34:11 because I mean I. I go back to the fact that this

1:34:13 man has an intellectual disability and was probably

1:34:16 very, very easily LED that. But why does that mean he's not

1:34:20 potentially going to be easily LED into the future by someone

1:34:23 else, by another psychopath? Because, you know, a

1:34:27 psychopath's going to prey on the vulnerable, and he's

1:34:30 vulnerable. He's proven that.

1:34:32 So I don't know. Whether we don't know where he

1:34:35 is in. Well, he was.

1:34:36 He was released into a facility, but then he left the facility.

1:34:39 He was allowed to do. He didn't leave.

1:34:41 Leave like you know he was there for a month.

1:34:45 Yeah. And then left.

1:34:46 Yeah. So he's out wandering and then

1:34:48 around like it's. I reckon that's concerning, but.

1:34:54 It is. Concerned he needs to be tracked

1:34:55 in some way. I mean, I'm sure there's

1:34:57 conditions of his parole, but I don't know that it's a worry.

1:35:02 Yeah. And then in terms of Visakas, he

1:35:05 is due for to be considered for parole this year and.

1:35:08 He is it, yeah. Yeah, but so The thing is, so

1:35:11 his name's been changed, he's in prison under a different name,

1:35:15 and a lot of information and everything around him has been

1:35:18 suppressed. We don't actually know if he

1:35:21 will be up. You know, he won't be in the he

1:35:24 won't be in the media. When Hayden went up for parole,

1:35:26 it was all in the media. We will not know anything about

1:35:29 for Sarkis's parole, whether or not he gets it.

1:35:32 We won't know if he's walking the streets.

1:35:34 And I, I have an opinion on what I think of that.

1:35:39 Well, I would hope that in the system he has been given the a

1:35:45 lot of psychological help. If that has been the case, if he

1:35:51 has been given all the support he should and he deserves to

1:35:55 get, I don't have an issue with him potentially getting out.

1:36:01 OK. I know that's controversial.

1:36:04 I mean, if there is any inkling of him being in prison and not

1:36:07 being the excellent, you know, inmate that Hayden has been

1:36:12 deemed to be, yeah, no, he shouldn't get out.

1:36:14 If there is any sign of. I mean, and I put trust into a

1:36:17 parole board making that decision of like what he's

1:36:20 whether he's made progress in terms of all those things.

1:36:24 And I, I really do hope for him that that's.

1:36:27 And what's happened in our country, we send people to

1:36:29 prison for reform. Yeah.

1:36:31 So I understand what you're saying.

1:36:34 Yeah, I worry that because he was indoctrinated into this at

1:36:38 such a young age and in like in his formative years, these were

1:36:43 the experiences that that formed his life.

1:36:49 Yeah, Yep. And this is by no means his

1:36:52 fault, but I, I, I don't know what the likelihood is that he

1:36:59 can be fully reformed. Yeah, I think it's, it's me

1:37:02 hoping, I think. I think you're yeah, same.

1:37:05 I I get what you're saying. I feel a lot of I don't think

1:37:08 sympathy is the right word my. Fatherly instincts get in with

1:37:12 him. I think of like, oh God, kid.

1:37:15 Like if only you'd had a better freaking kid.

1:37:18 Yeah, if you had had a better life.

1:37:20 You wouldn't have done this and and done this.

1:37:22 He wouldn't have. No, he wasn't a bad kid.

1:37:24 No, he had. He was in a bad situation.

1:37:26 He was in a really bad situation and his mum let a really bad

1:37:31 guy. Mm hmm.

1:37:32 Into their lives like and then she.

1:37:34 But then you look at her and you think, well, she didn't have the

1:37:37 best upbringing. So what?

1:37:38 God known, she didn't either. So fucked up her.

1:37:41 Mum apparently said to her things like, or you should have

1:37:44 just been an abortion in a bucket.

1:37:46 Mm hmm. I mean, the, the cycle, the

1:37:48 generational cycle of this is just horrendous.

1:37:53 Yeah. And I mean, and that's what I

1:37:54 kind of, I mean, I guess there's this like hope in me.

1:37:57 Yeah. For sakers can end that cycle,

1:38:00 you know, like for that of that abuse, It's it's just horrible.

1:38:07 Yeah, as you said, these people should.

1:38:09 Never have experienced what they experienced.

1:38:11 You know, like all of them, all of these perpetrators should not

1:38:14 have experienced what they experienced, but they should not

1:38:16 have perpetrated that on others either.

1:38:17 That's exactly right and but with the exception of Lasakas,

1:38:22 because he was so frigging young like.

1:38:24 Yeah, they were all so young at one point, experiencing not to

1:38:27 the, I think. No, no, experiencing it, I guess

1:38:29 escalated perpetrating it, not yes, no, that's right.

1:38:32 That's like that's what I'm saying.

1:38:34 Like for me, yeah, you choose your choices as well.

1:38:37 Like as in your choosing to perpetrate those crimes, You're

1:38:40 not choosing to join the Air Force and become a cadet and get

1:38:43 yourself out of that shit. You're actually actively then as

1:38:47 an adult engaging in what you're engaging in.

1:38:51 And that's that's your choice at the end of the day.

1:38:54 And I'm not saying that their experiences haven't formed or

1:38:57 given them a pathway, a really easy pathway down to that, to

1:39:02 that choice. But I don't know, there's

1:39:05 personalities in there. There's experiences, everything

1:39:07 that kind of makes that up. But yeah, I would like to think

1:39:10 that. And, and not even, I would like

1:39:12 to think I know that not a lot of people make those choices.

1:39:19 So there's still, you know, generally speaking, people

1:39:22 choose not to. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:39:24 Perpetrate these crimes just really quickly as well.

1:39:26 I think we you kind of touched on it before, but this serial

1:39:30 killing is this type of serial killing is extremely rare.

1:39:36 Yeah. So generally a serial killer is

1:39:38 a male, next is a female. Oh, sorry.

1:39:42 Next is 2 males, then it's a single female.

1:39:46 And right down the list in terms of serial killers is a group of

1:39:49 people, Right. So in in the world, there are

1:39:52 not many serial killings that are perpetrated by more than two

1:39:56 people. But that's why this has got like

1:39:57 that cult feel of it too. Agreed.

1:39:59 Like. So it's definitely that

1:40:01 ringleader. Mentality.

1:40:03 This word mentality. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:40:05 Oh, it's it's just, it's fascinating and the psychology

1:40:09 of it all of like in the Yeah, but.

1:40:12 Oh God yeah, horrific. To be in the wrong place at the

1:40:14 wrong time and involved in those with those pieces of shit.

1:40:17 I mean God. The bank to this day has been it

1:40:21 was. It was put up for auction I

1:40:23 think in like 2010 or 2012, something like that.

1:40:27 It didn't even meet half the reserve.

1:40:29 So it was passed in and then it was sold by private sale for

1:40:32 $185,000. And the people who've bought the

1:40:35 bank, yeah, they. So it's actually the bank has a

1:40:38 four bedroom house attached to it as well.

1:40:40 They have opened like a little brick, a Brack shop in there and

1:40:45 they live there to this day. Yeah, there's a plaque on top of

1:40:49 the bank vault that says, and I think this, this is a really

1:40:54 nice way to end our episode. Yeah.

1:40:56 In memory of those taken by evil, greed and ignorance.

1:41:02 Whoever came up with that? Fucking nailed it.

1:41:05 Yeah, absolutely. Totally.

1:41:10 This was a bloody heavy one. Absolutely, yeah.

1:41:14 There's a lot of resources out there.

1:41:16 I you know, if this is something that you're interested in,

1:41:19 there's lots of podcasts. The movie is quite true.

1:41:23 So Snowtown is quite true to real life events.

1:41:28 There's documentaries, there are like, you know, there's lots of

1:41:32 lots and lots of different information out there, so.

1:41:35 Yeah. Please stay tuned for next week,

1:41:38 next week. So we're actually heading up to

1:41:39 Queensland. So another Australian case.

1:41:41 Another. One we've had a lot of requests

1:41:43 for too, actually. Yeah, we have.

1:41:46 So we're going to be covering the Alison Bait and Clay murder

1:41:51 and which I mean, again, this is deep on another on a whole

1:41:55 nother level. It is, and I mean, I've very

1:41:58 much remember this. Occurring.

1:41:59 Yeah. This is in absolute living

1:42:01 memory for us. So yeah, yeah, it'll be another

1:42:04 one, another big one to research this week.

1:42:07 But not A2 parter. Not A2 parter, no.

1:42:10 We do try and avoid them where you know, we're not, we don't

1:42:14 really like doing 2 parters, but this was a perfect timing for us

1:42:17 probably to tackle it and we've yeah, this is a big one.

1:42:21 So it was definitely worthy of A2 parter.

1:42:23 Great. Thank you so much for tuning in

1:42:26 again. If you would like us to, if you

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1:42:30 mostly use it for wine, please head to buy me a coffee.com/two

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1:42:55 Stay curious. Crime besties.

1:42:57 Bye.