Episode 35 - Snowtown/Bodies in the Barrels: Part 2 (Includes Lucy Letby Update)

0:15 Welcome to crime Besties to Part 2 of our Snowtown episode. So just really, really quickly, before we even get into anything, if you haven't listened to Part 1, please go back to last week's episode and have a listen because it really sets up everything that we're gonna talk about today. It's really kind of important. Kind of essential, yeah, Unless you don't know who these people are that we're talking about. Yeah, we're not even gonna do much of A recap because otherwise this episode will literally be hours.

0:39 Oh, we could talk for days on this. Totally. We definitely could. So just really quickly before we get started in to the Part 2 and all of the the bits and pieces that people are probably hanging out to hear. Yes, recently in the media there's been a lot of chatter about the Lucy Letbee case and we just thought it might be timely to sort of mention, mention it and mention what we think maybe. So we covered Lucy Letby. Was that episode like 4? Yeah, it was really early on. So you and I really got into the Lucy Letby podcast.

1:10 Yes, back when it was first released, we were, we were one of those people who were listening week by week and to the. Trial. And to the trial, yeah, yeah. And it was, I mean, we were low key obsessed with it, I think. Like it was something we talked about a lot. Yeah. And we absolutely formed strong opinions about it. So what's recently come out in the media? Go back and listen to our episode if you want to know what we thought back then. Yeah, but what's recently come out in the media is that.

1:40 So one of the doctors, so this pre eminent neonatologist had released a paper, I can't remember what year it was, but it was before, well and truly before the trial, like years and years, 151015 something years before the trial. And the prosecutors used this paper that he'd published as evidence to support the fact that Lucy Letbe had injected air emboli or embolisms into their babies. And the evidence that was presented was that this paper showed that the way that the the mottled skin of the children of the babies presented like an air embolus had been injected into their bloodstream basically.

2:29 So this neonatologist has decided he, I actually had an interview with him and he said that. So he's Canadian, and obviously this case took place in the UK and he has since retired as a neonatologist and he now runs a farm in Canada, right? And he doesn't engage a lot. In fact, I don't think he has any engagement in social media, doesn't listen to podcasts or anything like that. And he'd only read a small article that came out in his local newspaper when this first went to trial. He'd read a little bit about it.

3:03 So he only knew really limited information. He didn't even know that his paper had been used in the prosecution of Lucy Letby, didn't even know that. Then somehow it came about that he's come to know that that's what's happened and that as in that his paper has been used. And he then started to look into the case and he now thinks that his paper was misused in the prosecution of Lucy Letby. All that to say that he has now. He then convened a panel of literally the best neonatologists in the world.

3:41 Now these doctors came. They did this pro bono, free. Nobody got paid for this. They say they did it without any judgement or preconceived notion of what they think happened. They came at the evidence from a completely independent standpoint. They they say that if they found that Lucy let be was guilty, then Yep, they were happy to put that out there. If they found that she wasn't, they were happy to put that out there. What they did was they, they basically found enough evidence in their, in their opinion to demonstrate the fact that Lucy let be is not necessarily guilty of murdering those 17 babies.

4:29 So I think there were 17 babies she was convicted of murdering. There were 25 babies who died, I believe. And it's, oh, I find this incredibly fascinating, but there's lots of different reasons. When you and I first saw this, we were like, Oh my God, what the hell is going on here? This is like, are we about to let potentially let a convicted baby killer out of prison? I don't know that we're even at that point. In fact, we're not at that point. And there's still a lot that needs to happen, apparently.

4:59 To get an appeal to begin with and. Apparently in the UK it's really difficult to get an appeal. So you can't get an appeal based on inadequate representation of council, which you can in a lot of other jurisdictions in first world countries around the world. So that's really tough because the really the only way you're going to get a new trial in the UK is if new evidence is brought to the fore. Yeah. And what this? Case this paper. Has already been presented. That's right so there it's not new.

5:34 No, it's just new evidence. It's just a new take on it. That's exactly right. And what they're saying is that Lucy Let me, Lucy Letby's defense team had the opportunity to refute what the prosecute, the way the prosecution used this evidence. Yeah. So it's already been tested in court. Yeah. And Lucy Letby's counsel didn't challenge it. No. So that was on them. And because Lucy Letby can't claim that she had inadequate representation of council, because that means nothing in the UK, you cannot get a new trial based on that.

6:06 She's kind of screwed. But then what this this neonatologist is saying is that he's actually considering republishing this paper with new evidence so that it. Becomes a new paper it. Becomes a new paper. Exactly. So watch this space. It's really fascinating the way they're going about. This. I still don't know what I think in terms of her guilt or innocence. Yeah, because as I was saying to you that. Does it throw a question to you though? Certainly does. I'm certainly like going, oh, I don't know what I believe anymore.

6:38 Like because there was all the OK, there was the medical evidence stuff, which as I said to you, that's not my, that's not my wheelhouse. It's your more so yours that I think all throughout the trial. I was always coming to you going but hang on, what about this and how what's that and what are they talking about to clarify that information as it was so but my mind was fairly set on the circumstantial evidence that put her in place of this occurring. We talked about the fact that she was she was president present president present, present at all fine, we're fine, we're fine.

7:10 I'm I'm awake, I'm awake. She was president present at all these. The fuck is happening with my mouth? Present. Present all these incidents whereas no other nurse could be put at the at the. I'll see there's even, there's even stuff coming out now to refute that. OK, right. So she, she absolutely was president, president, president at all those at all of them. But then there's actually evidence if you change the parameters by which you show events. Yeah, there are actually other nurses who could have also been also.

7:44 Attention, right? So what about when she went to Ibiza and there was no cases? Coincidental like. I I don't. I don't. This stopped when they took her off the ward. Yeah, again, coincidental. There's so much that's come out about this. It's just, yeah, it's crazy to me. But you know, there's there's the thing that gets me and you and I had this chat earlier this week. Yeah. The thing that gets me is all of the little notes and all of the little bits and pieces that they the evidence that they found in her house.

8:14 Like, why has she, why did she keep all of the medical notes for these babies? Yeah. Why did she write these really fucking weird cards to their families and them. And then the post it notes that she wrote where she was like, I'm a killer. And and I know in the episode we did talk about the fact that that doesn't necessarily make her a killer. That's a psychological thing where working through all those things, she's working through it and writing it down. I still didn't believe that at the time.

8:38 And I still don't believe that to this to this day. Yeah. Then the thing that you found when we were doing the episode with where she lives and what her house over now looks. At Yeah. Like, I just feel like there's so much there and I'm so conflicted. Yeah. And I'm so interested to see where this takes. Oh, to see where this takes us. Absolutely. Look if she's innocent. Fuck like but we'll have to bloody re record an episode and. Look, we will. We'll do that. But I mean, I, I don't know. I just don't.

9:07 I don't know. I don't know what I think, you know what I think, if any, if if we do end up having to re record it all good and fine. Yeah. Because what we knew at the time is what we knew. Yeah. Yeah. And that's what the jury knew and what the media were reporting. And we can only. I'm not judge on the information that we've got. Yeah. Yeah. So the fact that new information is now coming out, yes, we need to. I mean, this needs to probably be tested in court. Yeah. And whether or not it gets there, I don't know.

9:36 But, yeah, watch this space. It's really. Fast. I mean, look, it could and as we're saying what this could do and it's all the, all the defence need to do is present some reasonable doubt in the mind. Jury even even Oh right, I see if this goes to an. If it goes to another trial, if they're going to retrial trial, I mean, you know, getting the appeal is one thing, but getting over that hurdle and then getting to another trial and having, you know, all they've got to do is by presenting this, this new information, this new take on that information.

10:04 If her new defence managed to do that, I feel like it is going to put a bit of doubt in the minds. Of a jury. I feel like given the fact that they've got these like literally the world leading neonatologists now have come out, they've issued an official statement, an official joint statement saying that they do not think that Lucy let me is guilty of killing these babies. That is enough to me. But as I said to you, like, I mean, at any trial, all these sorts of things that go on, literally a prosecution can put it, you know, an expert on the stand, say one thing, The defence can put an expert on the stand who says completely the opposite.

10:40 And then it is in the hands of the jury to decide what one, which way they want to go with that. And that's that's where it becomes incredible. And I said to you, to me, they kind of cancel each other out. And therefore I can't take that into like you can't really take that into account because it's like, well, who do I believe? I don't have the knowledge myself. And I can probably say 90% of the jury could. Be sitting in my. Seat, you know, kind of thing to me in my mind, I'd be like, OK, well, I'm going to remove that from my understanding because they both have said the same like, you know, it's basically counteracted each other.

11:11 Yeah. And then you're left with that circumstantial evidence. Yeah, that you kind of go well.

11:17 Interesting. What are you gonna make of that? That's it. It's. So interesting. I'm I'm here for it in terms of wanting to know what what's gonna come of it. Also like at the end of the day, you don't want somebody who's innocent of a crime being in jail, but then no. But then if she is guilty of this then she's pretty well where she deserves to be. But Oh my God I'm so conflicted. Yeah, I'll say I'm very, very much. And I, yeah, I don't wanna jump to any conclusions because I don't feel like we've got.

11:40 Everything. No, absolutely. We can't say, but but absolutely, it's thrown enough doubt in my mind to be like, oh, I actually don't know. I don't know what I think I need to know more information. Yeah, yeah. We'll see. God, that hospital though. Seriously. Oh, the hospital has so much to answer for. I just really quickly, I was telling you this when I was looking into it, apparently the consultants on the ward, so they're the most senior doctors, right? They in all other first world neonatal intensive care units, it is protocol for the consultants or the the most senior doctors to do 2 ward rounds a day.

12:16 So that means they get seen by an expert. The babies get seen by an expert 2 times every single day. You would hope so, yeah. At the Countess of Chester, which is the hospital in which these these poor babies died, the consultants were doing two ward rounds a week. That blows my mind. Blows my mind. They also found like, some pseudomotes, some bacteria in the water supply that was then used to like, bathe and whatever the oh, it's just like so many things. But yeah, watch this space. Yeah, I mean, her defence team obviously didn't do well.

12:52 They were terrible. I think we even mentioned that in our episode. They weren't very good. No. Oh, God. Wow. All right. I just said before we now shift into and jump straight into snow town and back where we where we've. Actually have a couple of shout outs before. We go there, but go on. All I wanna say is can I just thank you for our lovely chairs that we're sitting in today? Because I'm sitting in the most comfortable chairs whilst we're we're doing this. I feel like my ass wants to thank you.

13:16 No, you're, you're welcome. So normally we sit on my very uncomfortable dining. Chairs. They're not bad, but these are really nice. Those so we've just recently put some desks in for kids because we're getting to that point where they needed a space to you know, do homework and just not not on the kitchen table, which was just driving me a bit Batty yeah so we got them some desks IKEA for the win on the desks but we didn't really like any of the chairs in like the desk sort of office type chairs in IKEA so we went to officeworks and these were on sale they were half price and they are just glorious yes they're so padded and so comfy and loving it I'm.

13:54 Sorry, they're too good for your children. Yeah, I know, right? Well, at least they they don't weigh as much so they hopefully they won't destroy them too quickly. True, true. And we can get some nice comfiness for forevermore. Very, very much loving that. If you've got to sit here a bit longer to do these episodes then I am more than happy. Super into it. A few shout outs before we get in. We have Kayla, Sarah and Catherine have been commenting. I think it was mostly in our Spotify like on the episode comments.

14:23 Thanks, guys. They were all really positive and really lovely. And they all said, oh, we just love your show. We're really looking forward to. They've just found us, I think, or fairly recently found us and are listening to the back catalogue. And then I also have a bit of a personal shout out to my ex work colleague and really good friend Nadine. I you know how you've got those people in your life and you'll call them, it might be, you know, months since you've spoken, but it feels like once you speak to them, it feels like it's just no times past.

14:52 Yeah, Nadine's one of my friends like that and I love it. I think the last time I saw her was, Oh my God, it was months and months ago, but something this week told me now I need to call her. And so we had a lovely chat, lovely catch up. And she didn't know we were doing a podcast, so I don't know if the last time we caught up, it just didn't come up or whatever, but so it sort of came up in conversation the other day and literally that night she messaged me and she's like, I'm 6 episodes in. I'm loving it.

15:25 It's so good. So thank you, Nadine. Welcome. Nice to have you on board. Yeah, that's it. Love it. Excellent. I love all the new people that are joining us. That's great. I mean, on that same topic, if share it with your friends, you know, if you've got I mean, we're growing, you know, exponentially at the moment. It's amazing, yeah, but we're here for it. So yeah, share it away. Share away with. Your friends, that's how I feel like that's how we've been getting growth. Like people are like, oh, I found out about you through this person or yeah, whatever.

15:54 So. Thank you to everyone who does that. Absolutely. We really, really appreciate it. All right, I think we need to get into this because otherwise we're gonna. Be going. On we're procrastinating again. We might be, we might be, but. Yeah, as we said last week, really happy to get this one out of the brain because it's a big. One, it's huge. Yeah, and we're only gonna get, I think our last episode was bad enough in terms of the intricate detail we went to of like what went on today is probably more so.

16:21 Oh, for sure, absolutely. So we should probably start with, again, similar warning to last week, you know, look after yourself if you need. This is maybe not the episode for you. We are going to talk about, you know, suicide again. We're going to talk about definitely sexual assaults and all those sorts of things again. So it's pretty full on. And in terms of terminology we use when we're referring to the LGBTQIA plus community, yeah, we just want to be be mindful of the fact that the language that we use in this episode is the language that was used at the time and by people involved in this story.

16:58 And it in no way reflects the way that we see the LGBTQIA plus community. And I think Meg mentioned in the episode last week, if we've upset somebody or we have, you know, said something out of turn, please let us know because we're here to learn as well. And we would never, it is never our intention to offend anyone. Yeah, absolutely. Please call us out if we are using wrong terminology. Absolutely, I'd be corrected anytime. Agreed. All right, so Snowtown Part 2 bodies in the barrels. We are here at the bodies and the barrels, I think.

17:33 We are at the bodies and the barrels, so I'm actually going to start on the 20th of May 1999. Yep, this is the day that the bodies of what we now know were eight people were found in six plastic barrels in a disused bank vault in Snowtown, South Australia. The snow town's about 140 kilometres north of Adelaide, and it is the scene of the discovery of these bodies, but it is not the scene of where these murders necessarily took place, with the exception of one person in this case. The Snow town murders, as they've become to be known, actually encompasses the murder of 12 different people.

18:18 And we're going to go through all that today. The crimes were perpetrated between August of 1992 and May of 1999 and the the the actual discovery. I don't know if you've listened to this actually, Meg, I listened to a podcast where a man so the forensic officer. Yes. Did you listen to this? A number of ones actually that he was, he spoke in. So yeah. He's he's amazing. Yeah. This. Was his first case. Was it really? Yeah, as as lead, Yeah, yeah. Really. Yeah, I did not know that even after listening to a couple of things from him, I did not know that.

18:59 So he's he's a lovely guy, but he was a forensic officer with the South Australian Police force and he was based about 20 KS out of snow town somewhere. Yeah, I think so. And he was called to. So basically the I guess, how did they get? How did the police even come to arrive at the? Bank well, even that's a little bit of a weirds and weird thing that they weren't they didn't really they weren't expecting to find what they found. No, and that's not no, not at all. They they they were looking. It was more so Elizabeth Harvey, one of the victims we'll get into that.

19:36 They were looking into, and it was, and from looking into her disappearance. And because that point, it was disappearance, it started, the same names kept appearing. And there was some interesting things they were looking into which led them to going to this bank. Yeah, in Snowtown to have a check out of what was going on there because one of the people's names was on the lease for it. Yes, this. And it was a disused old bank and. Yeah, so and then and then an odd smell was coming from the bank at the time, so.

20:10 Yeah. And I know that what he spoke about was that he got a phone call from like chief of police kind of stuff. And at the time, because he was so new, he didn't realize that that's not what normally happens and that that person is not normally on the scene because this was that big a case that that that level of police officer was on the scene that he has now learned since then of like, if that person's there with this heads out, this is pretty important. Pretty, pretty huge because he's got the phone call and he in the gut and he said, oh, got these barrels here and what do you think we should do with them?

20:42 And he's like, open them. If you find a foot, let me know. Yeah. And then gets a phone call back about 10 minutes later and I found a I found a foot so. I think we're referring to different people. When I, when I'm talking, sorry, I'm actually talking about the photographer who they engage. Sorry, Forensic. The forensic photographer. Before the pathologist I was talking about. Sorry, I'm sorry. Sorry, that was probably a bit mixed up, but yeah, this. So he was a forensic photographer. So he did all of the, he called it the CSI shit in the, in the podcast I listened to.

21:12 So it was his job to, he said the worst thing he'd been to at that stage. So he was a youngish guy too, but he wasn't new, right. Really Sorry. But the worst thing he'd been to was a bus accident on a like a grey light, a Greyhound bus that was travelling from Victoria to SA crashed in South Australia. And there was, there were fatalities. Yeah. And that was the worst thing he'd seen to that point. Yeah. As a young sort of forensic cop. Yes. So he was called, he was, it was in the afternoon and he got a phone call from his Sergeant to say, you need to get yourself to Snowtown.

21:48 There's just something there you need to photograph. They found something. It's, it's, it's smells and like, don't know if it's going to be animals, don't know what we're going to find in there. But you know, they've requested a forensic photographer to go. And that was that was part of his role. So he rang his wife and this is back. I think he said it was very early days of mobile phones, but he actually had to stop to call his wife and was like, yeah, I'll probably be home for dinner, but not sure.

22:14 Don't want dinner after that. Turns out didn't get home until the next day because when he got there, he was one of the first people to go in. So apparently the 1st police officer who went in was a woman. She walked in and she actually, she walked in I think with her superior and the smell was so overwhelming. Her superior like literally grabbed her and shoved her outside because they're like, if she vomits in here, that's going to contaminate her. Potentially a crime scene. Yeah, yeah. So and So what they they've then done is everyone's retreated and when.

22:51 And they're all vomiting out the front, Yeah. And when this man, when this guy came, the forensic officer came, he was trained in full breathing apparatus and none of the rest of them were. So he actually donned his full breathing kit with the oxygen tanks and everything and full gowned up and he was actually the first person to go into that bank because he was the only one who could stand the smell. Well, and but I believe he could, I mean in that full suit and with oxygen everything. So therefore you'd think this smell couldn't permetrate that, but it did.

23:24 He still. Actually, he says did. Cop some of the smell. And not only that he reckons so yes, he's in this full forensic like suit. He reckons when he left there that day or the next morning, I think it was like as they were there for a very, very long time, he got home and he said he the clothes, his clothes smelt so bad. It was like he could, like he's never smelt anything like that. And that was just his clothes. Yeah. And they were under the suit. Yeah, some of the police officers have said to this day that smell is burnt into their brains like they they can still smell it like and.

23:56 Imagine the smell of death. Like, I remember, and this is, I'm not comparing my experience at all to what these police officers or any police officer who's attending this. But we were down at Phillip Island one day and a whale had washed up ashore. And we went like everyone was going down to see it because, I mean, you never see that. It was. It was an incredible thing to see. Yeah. But that's not. People were vomiting then. Yeah, Right. That smell of a decaying mammal. Yeah, it was so overwhelming.

24:27 It was. And people were sick because of it. It was. It is such a strong smell. So I can imagine that. And then you take into account there's 8 bodies they had been deceased for some of them for a very, very long time. Yep. Yes, they were in hydrochloric acid, but that doesn't preserve a body. No. And didn't break it down entirely. No. No. Oh my God. So anyway, this forensic officer was the first person to open the first barrel and not knowing what they were going to find in there, he said they kind of thought it might be animal remains.

24:59 Because of course you, your first thought isn't oh, I'm going to find bodies in here. But as you said, he's like, oh, well, if I find a foot, I'll let you know. They open up the barrel and what do they find? A literal, literal foot. Yep, Yep, the the pathologist then that I I listen to because then the issue was was how do what do we do to get these what find out what's in here, but also preserve whatever else is what if whatever is in the barrels entirely could be evidence? I mean, because, yeah, when they did finally get them out, there was was other belongings and things in there to identify people to, you know, like, and things that we use within the process of of this that they needed to preserve.

25:43 So it was a quite an exhibition to be able to transport these barrels entirely to the pathology offices office. And then that strain, they literally strained then out the liquid to make sure that they could then keep any, any evidence inside how big or small to keep anything they could to, to then look at it and and find any evidence. So what an ordeal to then. And then what they explained, he explained to was that the the acid they had used was not ideal in that they it didn't break the body down, but it also, but what it did do is breakdown enough that there was no DNA that was able to be extracted from these people, like right down a bone marrow.

26:27 No, the DNA had been so. What's it was basically bleached, Yeah, they basically, sorry, it's basically bleached that they'd put them in. So yes, it had just destroyed all the cells that there was no DNA. No, it had it all been degraded. So they had to be obliterated. Dental records, Tattoos, you know, other markings on the bodies and things to be able to identify which body part went with who and who these people. Well, this is this is the thing, because I think they assumed at the start they had six barrels, there were going to be 6 bodies.

26:54 Yes, but what they actually found was the six Barry Feel contained barrel. Yeah, the six barrels actually contained 8 bodies and it's mixed up because, you know, if you can't fit someone holds balls in there, well, I'm going to have to cut them up and pop them in the other barrel. How annoying. The thing I think that when I got to a point where they'd filled the six barrels and then when they they need to do, they're like, oh, I'm sure I can shove a bit more in that barrel and that's what they did and spread them out from there and oh.

27:20 God, they used to stick to like match. Poke the minimum and. Poke the bodies in and so they could fit more in. Why didn't they just go and buy another barrel? I don't know why'd they do anything. I mean, why did they do any of it? That's. Just the comprehension of any of it. It's beyond. It's actually quite literally beyond comprehension. So horrific. So let's start with we're gonna go victim by victim today. There's a lot of instances in this where we don't have exact exact dates of death because they are unknown.

27:56 We know maybe on or around what date these people were murdered, but I mean. Maybe a month? Yeah, maybe a month if we're lucky, but but these people, you know, it's not like they kept records of what they were doing. So a lot of it's sort of either hearsay or just sort of gathering information from when they went missing or when particular incidents happened and. You can assume witness statements, but you know, we're talking from a period of seven years of from 1992 to 99. Yeah. And one particular person who gave the most amount of eyewitness account of all this was quite young.

28:27 Yes. So him trying to sort of probably give the evidence of terms of like particular, like actually toning it down to a date would be pretty impossible for anyone to be honest, to remember exactly what date. I think that they've even got close is. Yeah, like amazing. Yeah, that's right. But we've we'll stick to the sequence of, you know, what we believe was the sequence of these victims. But that's about the best week. Even then I've because because when I was ordering my notes, I'm like, OK, but there were somewhere I'm like, oh, that one thinks that one died 1st.

28:59 And so we're doing our best to keep them in what is reported to be the most common order. Of yeah, I think so, yeah. So let's go with the first victim then. Yeah. Well, it was definitely the first victim. Yeah, we noticed for certain he was also the first body that was found and he wasn't in one of the barrels, obviously. So, yeah. So Clinton Douglas Trezeis, he was 20 years of age, age. He was troubled kid in some ways. He was known to be very flamboyant, had a family around him who who loved him and cared for him.

29:37 Not to say that he didn't have sort of a bit of a rough go of things, though. But I'm so. Oh gosh, it's just awful. Poor Clinton Trize was bashed to death with a shovel by another than Bunting. So this was one that Bunting did pretty much on his own in the IT was in the living room of his Salisbury North home in South Australia.

30:05 He was just invited around for a chat, really. And that. And so he just he asked Clint, he'd seen him around. He had named him Happy Pants. Yeah, because he would wear, I mean, at the time, 19 in the 90s, you know, Happy Pants were the thing. But he would wear quite flamboyant, sort of coloured for clothing. Bunting hated that and. He just couldn't handle that at all. No, as we've spoken about, in Bunting's mind, if you were gay, you were also a pedophile. It just that's what his thought process was.

30:32 He could not distinguish between the two. So he had decided that Clinton was a pedophile. And so he, yeah, basically invited him over. And on August 31st, 1992, and he was sitting on the couch and he just whacked him over the head with a shovel. And he ended up, he buried his body out in a shallow grave out in lower light in South Australia. Now this His body was found in 1994. Yes, the 16th of August in 1994, so almost two years later. Yeah, yeah. So there were some guys working out on a farm and they had stumbled across some a bone at first, which they kind of just thought was a sheep's bone, a sheep bone of some sort, you know, animal bone like that.

31:23 But when they looked a bit closer, they realized that it was a skull. And they could also very clearly see it immediately that there was head trauma. So they that. Means the skull must have been crushed or like bashed. In or bashed with the shovel you can see this the damage immediately. That shows just how rageful the attack must have been. Absolutely. So, yeah, basically they realized that they had disturbed a grave of somebody and called authorities, obviously. So at this point Trousas was his sister was looking for him, was actively trying to find him.

32:01 So he was actually the subject of two episodes of of Australia's Most Wanted This. Is this is so fascinating. Yeah, yeah. So on these these episodes were watched by Bunting. It it it was in 1997 by the time they were actually on this on the show. And his sister. So Clinton's sister had been looking for him this entire time? She had no idea what had happened to him, No. No. So they had these bones and they, they hadn't actually identified him as Clinton Trize at this point. No, they basically were saying that there was these these bones and we're trying to find out who it is.

32:37 I think there was twice they, they re examined the bones and still didn't identify the body as Trize. It took a third go before they actually pinned it down to being Trize, but yeah. So Bunting sat and watched Australia's Most Wanted and with his soon to well, well, at the time for Sarkis, his what step sons, I guess she'd call him. Yeah. And and he and his mother, Elizabeth Harvey. I'll get the names right and make sure. Oh, God. Elizabeth Harvey, who was his partner at the time, was Bunting's partner.

33:11 Yeah, Bunting's partner. So they they were sitting watching it together. And he would. He boasted to them that, oh, that's some of my handiwork. Literally, and this is, I think we spoke about this in last week's episode, he is indoctrinate. Like he's basically by saying that he has now got lasarkas and Elizabeth obviously as well, but he has got lasarkas now. He knows something that he probably never wanted to know, and that implicates him in a way. Yeah, well, by 97 he'd probably seen a hell of a lot for Sarkas.

33:45 Yeah, yeah. But I mean, I think this just further. Yeah. I mean, what, what was this poor kid to? Do Oh God, yeah. I mean, they clearly weren't in a state of where like you could hear someone say that to them and go, oh wait, I need to go and report this to police like. Just so at the time of Clinton's death. Yeah. Barry Lane later became Vanessa Lane assisted Bunting in the disposal of his body. Yeah, yeah. Of Clinton's body. Yeah. So he was already involved in 1992. In 1992, he was involved. Yeah, look gross.

34:23 This brings us to victim #2 Ray Davies. Yep, Ray Davies had an intellectual disability. He was in a relationship with Bunting's ex partner named Suzanne Allen. Suzanne, this is it's so it's so intertwined, isn't it? The way this all works? Yeah. Suzanne's grandsons said that Davies made sexual advances towards them. So Suzanne Allen, was he? Look, she was a bit older than Ray. I was. Just thinking, I'm just realizing it. My head. Ray Davies was 26. Yeah, but but she's a grandmother. Yeah, but she was only, like, in her 30s when she was a grandmother.

35:05 So I feel like she had kids young and then her kids had kids. Yeah. Like, I think she was in a. She might have been 10 years or so older than him. I think she was in her mid to late 30s. Yeah. OK. OK. And I feel like us being a grandma, can you even imagine? Oh God. I'd lean into it, but no. But so basically, oh, for fuck's sake, Davies molested her grandchildren. Yeah, they then broke up because of all of this, but she's still LED. So Suzanne still let Ray live in a caravan on her property. Yeah, around her, children around her.

35:45 Kids like what? Her grandkids and her kids? I mean regardless, what the fuck wouldn't you be like? You can fuck right off. I don't care what happens to you. You are no longer welcome. But they also don't report this stuff to police, no. None of it's reported. This is the thing that I find, yeah. Is that because of just the environment? Trust with police officers, Yeah. All that. It's a it's a vicious cycle, yeah. So Ray Davies was killed by Bunting on the 25th of December in 1995. We know that date for sure.

36:20 Yeah, on the 26th of December. So the next day, Ray's daughter Annette saw Bunting and Ellen cleaning out the caravan. So she, she, she couldn't spend Christmas with him for whatever reason, or visit him on Christmas Day. So she's gone on Boxing Day to, to sort of catch up with him and be like, OK, well, let's go and see dad, daddy dearest and see what going on. What's going on? Then Bunting tells a story that Elizabeth Harvey, so this is Lasarcus's mum, stabbed Davies in the leg and Robert Wagner strangled him with jumper cables.

36:59 So that's his story of how it all went down. Yeah.

37:04 OK, cool, cool, cool. Bunting and Wagner then apparently put Ray's body into the boot of a card. Now, this is the bit. OK. Last week I mentioned the castle. Movie. And how it conjured up the I dug a hole, sort of. Scenario water. They put Ray's body into the boot of a Torana. Yeah. Daryl Kerrigan. Dad. In the castle. Yeah. Quote of the quote of the century. Really. Yeah. Hey, Steve, can you move the Chimera? I need to get to the Torana. I need to get the Torata out to get to the Commodore. Yeah, sure thing, Dad, But I'll have to get the keys to the Cortina if I'm going to move the Chimera.

37:49 All right mate, just watch the boat.

37:53 It's one of it's one of the best load ever because live that same and we know we all turned 18 and we got our licenses. It that's exactly what happened in all of our houses. Exactly. And Marina to get to the Holden, to get to the Commodore. And if you grew up in in an Australian household and your parents didn't have either a Torana or a Commodore or a Camira? Did you even grew up in Australia? I was like, we may have ticked all of those boxes, or maybe not the Torana, but we definitely had a Camira and a Commodore.

38:22 I'll just topic because my brother drove AVB Commodore with a number plate A&K, so we put AW in front of it. Well, that was asking for it, so it's weird.

38:37 Go on. Yeah. Anyway, side note, I think that was a bit of a side note, bit of a tangent, but couldn't not mention that. No, if we can get some light in this, we will like because Jesus Christ. So anyway, Bunting and Wagner have put Ray Davies body into the back of the Torana and drove him to Bacara in South Australia, which is 90 minutes away from Salisbury where the event where the murder took place. Yeah, they put him in a bathtub and bashed him in his genitals. Yeah, because we should say that they put him in the back of that car for 90 minutes, just unconscious.

39:12 He wasn't dead. Yeah, he was unconscious. It wasn't a body like he was. He was unconscious at best. Yeah. I would say he was barely alive. Well, what they did to him next was just but. They bashed him in his genitals until he died. Like that's what his body was found on the 26th of 26th of May in 1999 in a grave on a property that Bunting had lived on previously, no longer was living there. There were security cameras. So once this was obviously being investigated, there were security cameras that captured Bunting withdrawing cash from banks in and around the area.

39:54 Yeah, between January and April of 1999, so I don't know if surveillance only went for that time period, but over the course of all of these murders, yeah, Bunting gained access to $97,200.00 of welfare payments from his combined from all victims, Yeah, and one of the longest. One of the longest claims that he was making was against Ray Davies, so I don't know the exact proportions of dollar figures for each person, but 97 grand. Well, I mean the seven years. Of doing fuck all, yeah, that's not killing people.

40:33 As much as he, you know, claims his motives were around this, you know, the fact that he was a paedophile and all these sorts of things, more and more it became around getting money. Because they absolutely. Did because like same with this boat. They cleared out the caravan of any of his possessions and they, I mean, this they were, they accumulated all this furniture and things because they would clear people's houses out, but they'd also collect their welfare payments because people weren't looking for these people when they went missing.

40:58 Like, I mean, as we said, Clinton Drews ice, yes, his sister was looking for him and but they just didn't connect the dots at all on who where he was. But no one was reporting Ray Davies missing. No, no one missed him. Even his daughter who rocked up there on the 26th of December looking for him. Saw them clearing his caravan out, they took it on face value that he would have. He just moved on wherever he went, and he's gone like. Like, as in they've probably said to her, Oh yeah, he was. He moved to QLD.

41:26 Yeah, he was molesting the kids. We told him to fuck off. Well, what's she gonna do with that information? Yes, she's like, OK, well then now I can't find my dad, don't know where. He is, but probably better off without him too. Yeah, so but the. Fact that she was as an adult, he's going back to visit him for Christmas. I'm like, there must have been something there, you know? Yeah. And then the other thing is a lot of what we're telling you, nothing's been taken to court. Like, we don't know that, right?

41:49 I mean, he probably was a perpetrator of sexual violence against young children, but there is nothing proving that none of these people are convicted pedophiles. And I'm not saying you have to be convicted to be a pedophile. But what I'm saying is, in the law of bloody bunting or in the courtroom of bloody bunting, he's just Yep. He was using like he was, you know, an excuse like kind of like, you know, OK, or someone said maybe that person is a pedophile. Therefore they are like yes. And I'm sorry, but sometimes he just decided that they were when they like, for example, Clinton Trize, yes, Why?

42:23 Because he's gay. Then he must be a pedophile. So we're going to fucking kill him like. That's horrific and what else? I mean he hadn't done anything to anyone to you know, he's particularly one that stands out to me Trize that I just kind of go. There was nothing. He just I honestly believe he bunting had escalated to a point of I'm ready to kill someone. Yeah, agreed. And he was, and bunting in his mind or in his ideology, whatever he was thinking, was like, well, I'm justified in doing this because he's, yeah, gay and a pedophile.

42:51 Yeah, Yep. And he, I mean, at that stage he had met Wagner who became the muscle like because this is the thing, he was, I mean, Bunting wasn't the biggest bloke and he wasn't the strongest or anything like that, but Wagner was. So Wagner was, but he was also hefty. Like he was a big man. Yeah, and obviously this will come up again and again, but you know, what would happen is that Wagner would do the actual killing. He would be the one who'd be strangling the person, which is quite often how the the murders would take place eventually.

43:19 And so he would do that. And what Bunting would do is just intently watch for that moment when they would leave their body basically, which is just horrible. It's psychopathic. That was, I mean, that's presented in that movie that we spoke about, the Snowtown movie that, And there were parts of that. That was the parts of the movie where I was, I can't, I can't amount amount. I had to. I was looking away and distracting yourself in other ways. Yeah, Yeah. Big time. The third victim was Suzanne Allen.

43:51 She was 47 years of age at the time of her death and she was actually found buried at Bunting's house in Salisbury North on the 23rd of May 1999. Which is so following after finding the barrels they found the more bodies. Yeah, and which was three days later, they went and did a search, obviously of his property and that's what they found her. She was wrapped in plastic bags. Her death was obviously concealed by Bunting. And he claimed about $17,000 worth of her pension during this time. Yeah. So from the time of her death through until, you know, 1999, May of 1999, Yeah.

44:28 Bunting claims that she died of a heart attack and. And then he. Just covered up her death to then take her pension. Yeah, yeah. And he was actually never convicted of her murder. No. Unfortunately, because there was a lack of evidence to support the fact that he'd murdered her. Yeah. What gets me though is he's concealed a murder. There's still a crime that has taken place here, but they just didn't. They ended up dropping it entirely, like because they just couldn't get enough. Well, the jury were locked on it.

44:56 Yeah. There was a deadlock in the jury. So they just. This is this one is unfortunately at the 12. You'll see it will get to the when it gets in that 11 murders was he was convicted of. Yeah. This is the one of Susan Allen where they just couldn't convict him on it. Yeah. No. So I mean, I think that's really tragic for Susan Allen and for her family that that we could. We couldn't get that over the line because, as you say, either way, he's done something pretty shit no matter what. Yeah, but yeah, just.

45:26 Horrific. The next victim is Michelle Gardner. Yeah, formerly Michael Gardner, 19 years of age. Oh my fucking Lord. Yeah, she disappeared in 1997, and she lived with Wagner's wife's cousin. So again, this is so it. Gets so intertwined, intertwined and trying to work out where these people fit in amongst each other. But they they all, they're all interlinked somewhere. That's it. Yeah, they all. Yeah, there's a tie. Yeah, there's a tie into every. They weren't. This is the thing. They weren't just going out really and selecting randoms.

46:04 No, in that way, these are people they knew. Yeah, people that actually related to, or at least your neighbor was related to, Yeah, sort of stuff it was, Yeah, very, very personal. You've got to wonder why no one was going, hey, how come all these people that connected to each other are missing? Bunting took serious offence to Michelle's presence and life, and he was overheard calling her things like the biggest homo and all this like really derogatory things. Yeah, in 1997, Michelle was playing with Wagner's children in the front yard and she placed her hand over one of the kids mouths, which, OK, what the fuck?

46:43 Like, that's not playing. That's like weird shit. But I mean, you're 19 years old, you probably haven't had the best upbringing. Maybe you don't know how to play with young kids, you know, safe and, I don't know, constructive way. I don't know. I don't know. Yeah. But Wagner saw this happen, and the rage was intrigued for him immediately. Because apparently when he was as a child sexually assaulted, that was part of when he was assaulted, the person put their hands over his mouth. Oh, is this Wagner?

47:14 Yeah, Wagner. And so watching that happen, this is what that's this is what Scott told of. That's that why that was so triggering. OK. That that's what he brought it to Bunting saying like going no, that's it. That's I, I thought she was a pedophile. And now I know she is like, right. Yeah, I did. Not know that part of it, I just assumed that because he saw her doing that to his kids that that was enough. It did trigger for him something in terms of what happened to him. OK, that gives a little more context.

47:43 Not that any, not that what happened next is OK, but that gives a bit more context. Yeah. Yeah. So basically Wagner and Bunting then? Yep. They've been like, Yep, she's a she's a pedophile. She's a bad, bad person. Yeah. So they took her to a shed in Murray Bridge, SA and they strangled her. Now, can I ask, how did they, where did this property come into play? Do you know? No. I don't know either and I looked into, I was like, why Murray Bridge and whose property was this and how did they know to go there?

48:14 Was it potentially Hayden's? Maybe. So he did own a house. Yes, but was it in Murray Bridge? I. Feel like it might. Have been OK when I'm OK that makes sense I. Possibly. Don't quote us, but I think that might be what where that was that, yeah, that came into it. OK, 'cause it's like, how are they finding all these random places to kill people? Yeah, well, the way even Hayden got this property is a bit fucked up too. So he, because he did own, I mean, it wasn't a rental. It wasn't like, yeah, yeah, OK.

48:42 They so they've strangled her, she's deceased. They then staged a robbery, robbery, robbery, a robbery at her house. As good as a president? And told the cousin who she was living with that she'd use the money for a sex change operation. Yeah. And fucked up. And so it was like it was like Michelle had robbed her own home where she was living with her with. They were in a relationship. They were in a relation. Yes, yes, yes, yeah. But that she's fucked off and taking the money and she's using that for a sex change operation.

49:22 Yeah. So that's where she is. It's she's not dead. She's disappeared doing that. That's. And she's not coming back because she's stolen your money and she's now. So then that makes her not go, you know, I'm gonna report her missing to the police because, oh, she's been a bitch to me. She's taking all my stuff and looking after herself. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So Michelle's body is the first body to go into a barrel. Yeah. And they I had to cut her left foot off in order to fit her into the barrel. Yeah, that just gives an idea of the trauma and the absolute horrific nature of what happened.

49:57 To this poor woman and and that escalation again, like I mean to move from burying bodies to now putting them in the barrel and then I'm willing to cut off a limb like to me that. And is this more like, do you see this more as a well, I'm keeping my trophies now like, so you've buried a body elsewhere? And yeah, I can't be. With them, I can't be, I can't see them because the fucked up thing is Bunting would actually go and look at these bodies sometimes. Yeah, he, he had a shed out the back of their place where he kept these.

50:27 The smell, the smell it. Must have attracted, if nothing else, animals or maggots and God only knows what else. Well, he what he told everyone what, what that smell was and what was in those barrels was he told them they were Kangaroos that he, he had kangaroo meat now and they why would you do that with Kangaroos like? Well that's true, but he would slaughter Kangaroos on just at home just to he was. Totally fine with that. Yeah, and he'd like cut off their tails. Oh my God, that is just. Yeah, I mean, kangaroo meat, it is absolutely edible, all that sort of.

51:02 Delicious. It's love I. Haven't eaten it ever. I can't do. It I can't do. It no. You know what, there's this really nice if anyone does want to try it, Kohl's do a really nice marinated kangaroo fillet and it's delicious. It's so Yum. What come? It's not gamey or anything like it's delicious. It's really, really nice. Kangaroo, but you eat cows, you eat chicken. Yeah, but yeah, but I think I did. I ate that before I knew that they. Were OK. It's far more. I think it's to eat. Kangaroo is actually far more environmentally friendly.

51:35 Yeah, I've heard that. Absolutely. Oh, I just, I don't know. I just can't. I've never been able to do it. I just, I know so many people have said to me, Oh no, it's delicious. It really is nice. I just can't be myself to do it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So he had this shed where no one was allowed in there. Now, just plain and simply, that should be a red flag if your partner like, say, Elizabeth Harvey in this situation, living in that place with young children. Yeah, to then to go, OK, my partner has a space where I'm not allowed.

52:04 That's that's weird. She was so drug. Fucked. Oh, gotcha. Oh, absolutely. She. Would never would probably didn't even occur to her to think anything of it. No, but yeah, he he, yeah, It's definitely a trophy situation though, I think. Oh, for. Sure. So you. Kept them there for a long time to show, you know, Yeah. Victim #5 is Vanessa Lane. So in our previous episode, we spoke a lot about Barry Lane. This is the same person. Vanessa was 42 years of age when she was killed. What? She was Wagner's ex partner.

52:40 Go back and listen to our previous episode. You can. You can have a you'll know exactly how this all sort of came to be. Yeah, she was in a relationship with Wagner when Bunting moved to Salisbury North in 1991. And Bunting again, we alluded to this last time. Bunting kept laying around despite what Bunting thought about transgendered people or gay people. And because up until a certain point, Lane was useful to bunting and was providing information and obviously assisting in certain disposals of certain bodies and whatnot at a.

53:20 Point though, surely Vanessa had to start thinking maybe I'm on his shit list. I don't know. That's that's certainly not the way it's portrayed in the movie. No. And but from what I can gather, because as we spoke about last episode, his spider wall, wall of spiders, Barry Lane was in the middle of it. Yeah. So. And Berlin had seen that. He'd seen the Wall. And whether he just thought of himself as being, I'm the informant of all of the other the outside of that. I I suspect that's the truth, yeah.

53:51 And I think because he was at the centre of it, he probably felt a little protected. No, maybe. But he shouldn't have. I don't reckon she sorry. We should. Oh, it's sorry. We don't actually know the exact point in time when Vanessa transitioned. So again, we're trying to be sensitive to it, but it's like the timeline is a little bit a little bit messy. Yeah. Lane was accused of molesting a local boy, and then their home was firebombed. Who did that wonder? But that's what. True, we actually. Did to leave the relationship to but what actually was his her downfall.

54:33 I was that he she claimed. Well, she didn't claim. I mean, I'm sure it happened. The the the fact that she was involved in Trezeis's. Yeah murder in that she helped bury bury the body. Apparently that really traumatized her. I mean, all the horrible things that she did to people. I've sort of don't feel sympathy for that really. But yeah, but she spoke about the fact that Trezeis was dead and then what she had done in that and spoke about it too. Her mother, she'd spoken to her about, I believe to, I think she spoke to Elizabeth Harvey about it.

55:08 Oh, OK, I didn't know that. I know Travillian was involved in this one. Yes, she definitely like had told him about this because that was her partner at the time, yes, so that she was definitely sharing that information more and more. And so Bunting decided, well, she's now liability and decided that that was that. Yep. Mm hmm. It's, it's just, it's the horrific state of. Affairs. There's another escalation here in terms of his behaviours, Bunting's behaviours in this. Then when she does, when he does murder Vanessa Lane in that he on he gets onto the phone.

55:46 Oh. This gets me. Lane's mother and so in live time, real time, she they're on the phone and he makes Lane basically yell verbal abuse to her mother, basically saying I fucking hate you. You know, you've always been horrible to me. I'm leaving, I'm going to move to Queensland. I don't want anything to do with you. Never contact me again. You know, this sort of stuff. He forces him to do that, her to do that on the phone to her mother. But the mum can hear Travellian in the background, yes, basically telling Vanessa what to say.

56:23 Yeah, I like, what the fuck? And so the mum's like what is going on here? It's so bizarre. Yeah, yeah. So once again with this they that ramps up again as well in terms of the torture when they kill this lame yes. They they crush her toes with. Pliers well, like before. She's dead before. She's dead. Like they're torturing her because they want to get her bank account information and PIN numbers or Pins and all of that. Is what I ultimately think was his motivation in times of this sort of stuff was like, you know, it was in well, we need all that info too.

56:59 We need to get the money. As well. This is where it's kind of really, I mean that, you know, they were obviously getting the pension payments for. Was that Suzanne Allen? And they're still getting made money out of Davy's bank accounts, too. As well. Yeah. And so now they're really like this. This seems to be a source of like, well, I guess we're killing you. We might as well take all your money or Yeah, any, you know, welfare payments you're gonna receive over the next however many years. Yeah, yeah.

57:25 He also Bunting also took over her car like so I think it was kind of a decent car too. I think it was a good car, BMW even potentially bit of a step up from Holden. Is that sound? Australian of you may, yeah. So, but it was. You know, accessing Vanessa's Centrelink payments for many years following this. Yeah. And Vanessa's body was found in a barrel on the 20th of May in 1999 with Gardner. Yeah. So the two transgendered people were in a barrel together. I find that fascinating. Oh, they were in one barrel together?

58:06 Yeah. I thought he put them in separate barrels. No. OK. They were in the same barrel. Wow, Yeah, that's interesting, isn't? It. Yeah, yeah. I mean. It's considered. He's obviously done that deliberately. Yeah. Well, I mean, is he planning? There's going to be more after that, obviously still. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, God, get in the mind of a serial killer. This is it. We just can't. No, no. OK, so now we're up to victim 6, Thomas Eugenio Trevellian, who we were just speaking about. Yeah. Who assisted in the?

58:40 Previous, he played a role in Yeah. In the previous victim's demise, yeah, he was only 18 years of age. So again. I mean what? Influence have these older men got and like, I mean, they obviously have a lot to answer for. Oh. Absolutely. I mean, Vanessa Lane traumatized a number of young people, Yeah. So Travillian was, as we mentioned, Vanessa's last partner. There was a 24 year age gap. Eww.

59:15 He suffers. Oh, absolutely. He suffered from paranoid schizophrenia, which made him think he was a soldier, so he would always wear like army fatigues and stuff. So he's quite out there. There was an incident though, where he was playing out on the the lawn out the front with with kids again. And this is the thing around all of these in these murders, there are young children in running around in amongst all of this. It's and this is just awful life like this is the way. They crop up like it's just horrendous.

59:50 Travillian in At this moment he's chasing after a dog and he wanted to kill it. He had a knife and. Everything. Travillian wanted to kill the dog. Yeah. Oh. OK, yeah so he was chasing it down to to try and kill it and he was stopped. It didn't occur. However, this was the the trigger moment for Bunting to then say Travillian is a liability. Is this where he's like our Travillian's gone mental? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So OK, but hunting's killed animals in the past. What the fuck? Like he fucking regularly regularly.

1:00:25 And he, he basically like butchers, Kangaroos and shit. Like, it's not, it's not like he's solo in this practice. No, no, yeah. So I mean, that's what I mean by he's he changes his reason. He finds a reason all the time. You know what I mean? That's like it's. And like you can see from like 92, his next murder wasn't until like 95, but you're getting up around the 97 and they he starts pinging them pretty quick enough for that, you know, like it's. Yeah, you're right. There's a real escalation to it.

1:00:54 And like, obviously there's not a hell of a lot of time. I don't believe. And we don't know exact dates. Oh, no, we do. Sorry. This was November 1997. Fourth of November. Yeah. So I mean, between Lane and Trevelyan's demise, there wasn't a hell of a lot of time. No. So he really has gone off the back of one and kind of gone. Yeah, we've got a we'll knock that one off, too. And maybe more so the fact of Trevellian being an accomplice to Lane's death maybe had him a bit, you know, like, yeah, he's not someone I want to keep around.

1:01:26 He might now be, actually. I mean, if he's a paranoid schizophrenic, I mean, he's probably acting in a fairly erratic way. Yeah, I guess he is a liability because God only knows what's going to happen and if he really thinks he's in the Army, maybe, you know, he'll have a crisis of conscience and be telling someone about that or yeah, I guess they just didn't know what was going to happen. No, unfortunately, previous to his death, Travellian had actually attempted suicide a number of times and and this was known in the community and to his family.

1:01:59 And so the way that this, his murder was actually perpetrated was that he was driven to Kers Brook in Adelaide Hills by Bunting and Wagner and he was hung from a tree. So when, and he was then found by, oh, I'm just trying to think now, how was he found? Somebody was walking past. It was on a farm, I think. And was it a farmer sort of saw something and yeah, and went over to him and obviously found that he'd been hanging. They've called the police. The police have come and the police are like, well, this is a pretty clear cut suicide.

1:02:31 No further real investigation had taken place once they'd realized or once they've investigated the fact that he'd actually made previous attempts attempts on his life. Yeah, the coroner very quickly just determined it as a suicide. Suicide. And so we're still not, you know, we're still not having red flags. Buntings not being implicated, No, Wagner's not being implicated and left with a dead 18 year old victim #7 was Gavin Allen Porter. He was 29 years of age and one of Lesakis friends, so one of Jamie's friends.

1:03:05 He was a schizophrenic as well and had grown up for a majority of his life, a huge portion of his life in mental institutions. God, this poor kid just had a had a bit of, a bit of a rough trot following. So his mother had actually passed away when he was really young too. And he moved from Melbourne to Adelaide at that time, which I think was in 1997 when she passed away. And he met and moved in with Vlasakis pretty quickly. So again, I'm like. They just collected these people. They. Really did.

1:03:42 And they collected people who had no one else and no one looking for them. Porter was. Considerably older than Vlasakis too. So 10 years older than him. Yeah, at least. Yep, Yep. I mean, yeah, quite actually 12 years, probably older than Vasakis, like it's. But he was a heroin addict and Vasakis was deep into his addiction at this point, so they probably found kinship in that. Oh, absolutely. Yeah, yeah. They even moved house at one point and and Porter moved with them. Yeah, that's right. Yes, I remember.

1:04:14 Yeah, that's it. Yeah. So he was like, well and truly in in with them. Yeah, and like, because of his drug use, Bunting hated him. Yeah, he couldn't stand him. He. Said Porter was a waste and didn't deserve to live. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Yeah, well, I guess once Bunting's decided that you're not worthy of life, then watch out because. I reckon this this one was where for Sakis, Well really, this is where it became. It changed the shit show for him. Yeah, I think the situation changed for him, Yeah. Bunting was actually sat down on a couch at home and was pricked by a used needle that Porter had left on the couch.

1:04:55 And so that incited, that was the trigger point. Like we've talked about that in all of the victims so far, there was a trigger point. It didn't have to be much. I mean, I I mean, I think I went with the new syringe either, but yeah. Like, that was sort of the flashpoint and Yeah. And where, you know, things kind of took a bit of a turn and they decided, right, it's your turn, Yes. Bunting and Wagner attacked him when he was asleep in his car. So he was while he was living with them, I guess he actually was just living out of his car on their property.

1:05:27 So they didn't even have the decency to let him live in the house with them. Yeah. And he was. He was probably so lost. And so, like, what else was this poor boy to do? His mother had died. He was schizophrenic. So he obviously had his own battles and struggles. Yeah. And he was obviously a heroin addict as well. And he's living out of his car. So sad. Absolutely, but so when so obviously they they attacked him while he was asleep, but as he woke up he actually managed to stab Bunting in his hand with a screwdriver.

1:05:59 Good on him. Fucking great. This is the only time where I've reported Bunting having any sort of negative repercussions for any of his crimes. Absolutely. But yeah, he unfortunately, I mean, Wagner was a big bloke because we've said he did overpower him fairly quickly and easily. Yeah, easily. And he so he was strangled. They then so they performed the the murder was done, but they presented the body to Vasakis. You know, just sort of this is your. Friend, how did they do that? Was it after they put him in the barrel or?

1:06:33 Before they put him, before they put him in the barrel, I think no, yeah, because Vasakis vomited and yeah, everything I know side of it all. I know later on as well, though, they made Vasakis go and look at his body in the barrel like they were like, look at what? Because yeah, again, they wanted him to be. And you're like, oh fuck, I'm involved with this. This is like on me too. Yeah, I know this. Draw him in entirely like you're. You're now connected to this. You're. Part of this, this is actually like we go down and see this body, this is you.

1:07:03 Yeah, because he also was, I think in this was trying to get him off the drugs. Yeah, because I mean, well, let's be honest, if you're killing Porter because he's on drugs, well then therefore forsake this is the same. So he really wanted he wanted Lasarcus to be his disciple, not the same as Porter. So this was his opportunity to sort of go, this could be you or you could be me, you know, like. And so it's basically pick which one you're going to be the one in the barrel or the one putting them in the barrel.

1:07:33 I mean, what a position to be in as a, you know, at the time, a 17 year old. Oh. Horrendous, Absolutely horrendous. Yeah, Yeah. That was a real, I think, yeah. Turning point for Vlasakis big time. Absolutely. Agreed. We now have Troy Yud. So victim #8 yeah. He was 21 years of age. He was the half brother of Vlasakis. So he was older than Vlasakis, had a different dad, same mum. Yeah. Vlasakis confided in Bunting that you'd sexually assaulted him when he was thirteen years old. So they, you know, I mean, Vlasakis, obviously we talk about this in the first part of this of this podcast.

1:08:16 Vlasakis was a victim from a very, very young age and the fact that his half brother perpetrated sexual assault against him when he was 13, he's horrific. It's absolutely horrible. Yeah, well, I mean, he's his half brother. Troy would have been, what, 16 when he perpetrated that against his younger brother. I mean, it's just, I mean. But then what happened to Troy? You know, like the. Same thing happened to him. It was his step dad did it to him. Exactly. It's cyclical. It's like, oh. It's generational.

1:08:47 It's yeah, yeah. Awful how you get out of that cycle. I mean, God, yeah. The way that the murder of Troy came about though, this gets me. So sorry. Bunting and Wagner woke Lasakas up one night and was like, right, you've got to kill Troy, it's on you, you've got to do it. He, he sexually assaulted you. You take that back, you take his life now. And I'm guessing like at this point, what the fuck was Lasakas to do? If he didn't do that, then what would have come of him? So they beat him while he was asleep.

1:09:26 As in Troy you'd was asleep. They beat him and Lasaka's handcuffed him and I think the other two men, like, bound his legs. I think. Yeah. And they started to strangle him. They used the pliers again on his toes. They took him into the bathroom I think this time because I'm guessing cleanup's easier. In the bathroom. Yeah, you. Can just wash the bath out and I think a lot of you know. Yeah, I think a lot of them took place like that, yeah. The the toe thing gets. Better, Well they did it again. What so learnt from the other occasion where he had Lane do it live on the phone to, you know, tell other people that he was going away and disappearing.

1:10:04 This time he decided Bunting decided to use a recording, so whilst crushing his toes with pliers, he would coax out of them. Well, bank details all those sorts of things, but also record messages and sentences so that he could then use those recordings to make phone calls later. Or someone rang saying have you seen Troy? You know? Oh, yeah, He's here. Hang on. Wait. Fuck off. I don't want to be, you know, I don't want to speak to you. Like he'd record these messages that he could use then later.

1:10:31 OK. That's that's great. Yeah. OK. Yep. Good forward thinking on on your bunting. But when you're being tortured and your your toes are being crushed by pliers, yeah, you're not going to sound all that convincing, are you? You're like. No. I know right now I'd be like, you know, you wouldn't sound normal. You wouldn't sound like yourself. So were they convincing? I don't know. Well, they were convincing enough that nobody was looking for these people, but. But nobody would have been looking for Troy anyway, aside from potentially his mother and.

1:11:02 Knew. She knew about it, so and she was implicated in it, so there was no real need for that. I don't really understand the recordings in this situation. No, but I mean, he did have at least the forethought that, you know, if you're doing it live, the person could call out I'm being murdered by by this person, that person, you know, like on the phone call. So at least he could avoid that by recording it. But who's he didn't end up using the recordings? Like who would he have used them on? I. Don't know.

1:11:33 Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. Yeah, yeah, who knows? Troy's body was then also put in a barrel and was one of the one of the one of the bodies in the barrel that was kept in the Snowtown Bank vault. Yes. OK, victim #9 we have, we're nearly there. It's so much. I know it is so much. We have Frederick Brooks, who was 18 years old now. Again, the bloody web of kind. Of connections. The connections, yeah. So Frederick or Fred, is he Freddie? Freddie was it that he went by? Yeah, I think so.

1:12:10 I think. Was the son of Jodie Elliott, who was the sister of Hayden's wife. He moved to SA in 1997. Sorry. She. Jodie moved to SA in 1997 to be closer to her sister and obviously brought her kids with her. Yeah. Bunting became obsessed with the fact that he thought Brooks was touching little girls. He told people that, you know, something has to happen to him. He's touching up little. Girls. But it sounded to me as if this guy was actually someone who was on a path to get out of this horrendous environment.

1:12:50 For sure, and there's literally no evidence to suggest that he was touching up little girls. No, he literally had been notified that he had been accepted into the Australian Air Force as a cadet. As a cadet, yeah. I mean, that's not an easy thing necessarily to get into. I mean the Air Force, you need to be able to meet certain criteria. Absolutely. But also the fact that he even had the goal to to go out there and apply and try to get into that, that shows that he was fundamentally a different person to everyone else he was growing up around.

1:13:19 Absolutely. He wanted out. Yeah. So this is what I'm saying when when I say that you've got a choice in life. Yeah, so he's had a fucking shit upbringing too. Like his background isn't that much better than any of the rest. Of it, I mean, why would you choose to uplift your children from somewhere and your child, one of them being one? That's like wanting to get out and go join the Air Force cadets and take pick them up and go, hey, let's go move next door to or nearby my sister who is involved in all this shit.

1:13:48 Yes, what? So what the fuck? Like this kid was, you know, he was going places, he was getting out. He'd made some really good choices in his life. And yet fucking Bunting decided. On he did a number on him too. Like it's horrible. Just. Horrible. So what they did was now he was a young boy, right? Really. He was a young kid when this happened. 18 Vasakis, Bunting and Wagner invited him to a party. I put that in inverted inverted quotes in comers. They basically lured him to his death. It was like, let's go celebrate the fact that you've got into the cadets.

1:14:27 Yeah, let's go and have a few beers, mate. Like, this is great. We're so proud of you. They tortured him, tied him, put him in the bath. They put lit cigarettes in his nostrils and ears. And this is the bit that was against me. They lit a sparkler and inserted it into his urethra. God. Oh. He was alive at that point. Yeah, he was alive. Yeah, he was alive when that happened. They again got him to record things into a device, this one. I can understand this one like he's going to have to they're going to have to explain his disappearance or his the fact that he's no longer around to his mom.

1:15:06 I'm. Not turning up to the cadets, like I don't know. They got him to divulge his bank information. They also injected via syringe bleach into his testicles. It was also wired up to some sort of electrical impulse. Device. Yeah, they they, they wired his testicles to an electrical current and were like zapping him. Full torture. Like, full, full, full blown torture. I mean, there's such escalation with each of these. Yeah, in terms of that, yeah, Bunting was enjoying himself. Well he was getting great pleasure out of all this Again.

1:15:47 This poor kids toes were crushed with pliers. Mm hmm that just gets me. Like the thought of that is just horrible. Oh, absolutely. His cause of death actually was choking on the gag that they taped into his mouth. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So he had to endure all of that torture and again, his was one of the bodies that were found in the barrels in the Snow Town vault. Victim #10 Gary O'dwyer, 29 years of age, mentally and physically disabled. He was a neighbor of Buntings at the time. Bunting called him a fag.

1:16:20 Like. The language used is just absolutely horrific. Vlasakis on instruction of bunting because now Vlasakis was really deep in this. He was really starting to being like actively involved in the murders. So again, you're we're seeing escalation from from his side as well coaxed him into, coaxed his bank details out of him. Again, we're doing this for financial motivation. Yes, this, this one he, well, that is considered purely a financial target. Mm hmm. There wasn't really any other motivation in terms of whether he was a paedophile.

1:17:00 Or not? So do you think they they picked him because they were like, oh, he must have a good amount of money? Like what? That because of his. Yeah, he had to set up like a good. Level of welfare. Because of his disabilities. Yeah, yeah. Fucking disgusting. Oh, yeah, Because he, he was really. Yeah. The thing that gets me is they lured him to the pub. They they were like, hey mate, let's go and have a beer together. And poor old he. Thinks he's Gary and friends like it's just. Horrible. They grabbed his throat.

1:17:30 They strangled him. They tortured him for many hours before his ultimate death. I think his cause of death was strangulation. Yeah. And again, he was one of the bodies. His body was found in the vault in Snow Town. Yeah. Barrel. Oh, the next one's a spicy one. Yeah, it is. Yep, yes #11 this is where we get to Mark Hayden's wife, Elizabeth Hayden. So obviously this is so Mark Hayden's wife and also Fred Frederick Brooks, who was victim number. I want to say seven. I've lost my page. Where are you Freddy #9?

1:18:14 #9 no. So, yeah, So victor #9's aunt also, and Mark Hayden, who at this point in time is an accessory to all of this. He is storing the barrels on his property. He is helping move things around but don't believe participated in the actual murders. He certainly was never convicted of participating in the murders, but he absolutely what he's covered them up and assisted his disposal and whatnot. Yeah, yeah. So basically what was going on was that Mark, he wasn't, he was not bright at all, but his intelligence level was very low, is very low, I should say.

1:18:52 He disclosed that he was disclosing this information to his wife. Yep. So that Elizabeth Hayden was aware of what was going on. The scene where they depict this in the Snowtown movie I found very chilling. So the way that it's depicted in the movie is that he basically says to like, in a really sheepish way, He says to Bunting. Oh, Elizabeth knows, mate. And Bunting is like, well, at the time I think he's like, oh, that's all right, yeah, no worries, no worries. Then decides. Turns out it's actually not OK.

1:19:30 Yeah, well, apparently he just really hated her. Just didn't like her as a person. What had she done to him? Yeah, beyond the fact of her knowing things, it was he just genuinely just didn't like it. Yeah, maybe because she didn't find him attractive or something. Probably. You know what? Probably. Yeah. Fucking cock head. Oh yeah. So. She because he considered her a whore. That's right. And a lowlife. I've got that written down as well, but she wasn't a whore. She and Mark had been together for a long time, I think.

1:20:04 Yeah, yeah. Oh. Fucking the judgment, the judgment. The bunting too. Imagine being judged by bunting. Oh, God. But no, what a piece of shit in Mark Hayden in this situation, particularly like, you know, Bunting and Wagner have just, like, arrived at their home and just gone. Well, yeah. So it's time. It's time. We've got to do it. We've got to do this to Elizabeth. Yeah, yeah. So I think at the time of the murder, though, Mark and the children were out of the house. So I don't know whether that was orchestrated or not.

1:20:35 Yeah, I assume it was. I reckon totally, yeah. Why would Mark look after his children? Yeah, because otherwise that is true. Actually, otherwise he really didn't have much to do with the upbringing of his kids. No, but he'd taken them out for the. Yeah, good point. Yeah, it was absolutely orchestrated. Yeah. They dragged her to the bathroom and tortured and killed her in her own home. Yeah, they put to rope around her neck, a gag in her mouth, and when Hayden was shown the remains of his wife, apparently he laughed.

1:21:06 Laughed. This is his wife. Yep. She could have been the biggest piece of shit known to man, which she wasn't. She was doing her best, you know, being a wife and mum. But he laughed, laughed at the sight of her dead body. Oh, my God. Now I'm imagining this as a laugh that was that of, I don't know, humour maybe or not. Maybe not. I don't know. Or was it a laugh of like, you know how some people when they're in a really awkward or uncomfortable situation or they don't know how to react? Yeah, they're they laugh.

1:21:48 I think we talked about this in the Jonbenet Ramsay episode, especially in relation to Burke. And whenever he speaks about Jon Benet and he smiles or he, yeah, he's got a really odd demeanor about it. Different. I mean, go back and listen to our Jon Benet Ramsey episode. But was that the reaction that he was having, that Mark was having, or was it? I get the. Feeling no same. And certainly the way that it's depicted in the movie is not like that. It's like it's. I think it was he was, he was again so enamoured with Bunting and being part of that, the boys part of that crew, that it was like.

1:22:27 The fact that he even confessed to Bunting that he'd told his wife, I think he probably knew what was going to come of that. Yeah, I know he wasn't a really intelligent person, but like, surely on some level he'd know that that's that has to be the reaction that Bunting is going to have, right? Yeah. I mean, I guess at a level you kind of go, well, you'd assume I'm telling my wife, wouldn't you? Like she's in on it as equally as much as I am. I actually don't. I don't know. I don't know. Again, we can't get in the minds of a serial killer because we're not and.

1:23:00 Then they've bloody put her body into a barrel on their own property like it's just so fucked. I don't know when exactly when it was exactly that they'd moved the barrels. It was within the preceding six weeks. Yeah. So after her death, they've moved the barrels to the bank. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we now come to our final victim and the only victim who was actually murdered in Snowtown. So the final victim is David Johnson. He was 24 years of age at the time of his death. He was Flasakis's stepbrother.

1:23:39 Yeah. And Bunting hated him because he was really clean, really well presented and very fastidious about his appearance. Like his appearance really mattered to him. So that that just equals. Apparently that makes you gay. Gay yuppie? Yeah, he called him a faggot. Like. Oh, Yup. Oh, it's. Just such an awful word. Yuck. Yeah. Could he just. Yeah. Just because he's clean and fastidious. Whether or not he was gay. Or not. He's irrelevant. We don't even know. Like I don't. Don't know. No, no, no we don't.

1:24:13 Know he just made a conclusion of like, well, now he's got to go because he's clean. Yeah, so Bunting basically said to Flossar because we've got to get him and on the well, I. Used to used to use words like he'd say like, we're going to take him to the clinic. Oh yeah, Headley's like. Code word. Oh yeah, code. Word. But they like fucking. What else does that freaking mean? Yeah, take him to the clinic. You mean the bathroom so we can torture him? Marshall of the evidence down the drain, yeah. Oh, he's.

1:24:42 So foul on the 9th of May 1999, he was murdered. And Vlasakis told Johnson there were cheap computers for sale in Snowtown. Yeah. And could they, you know, pop down there and have a look at them? And so Flasak has travelled with Johnson from Salisbury to Snowtown. And they go into the bank. And what comes next? This this was part of the movie where I got really I. Actually didn't watch this bit. I couldn't. It's so hard to watch. It was actually so, so hard to watch. Yeah. Because you know what's coming.

1:25:16 You know, he's been lured there under false pretenses, and he's complete. I'm not saying any of the victims deserved what they got, but this boy, this man is completely innocent of anything. Yeah, and they've just lured him there for the literal purpose of killing him because Bunting didn't like him. Yeah, yeah. He entered the building and was overtaken by Bunting and Wagner. So if Lasakas kind of went into the building behind him and then they this is a another further escalation. Oh yeah. They then Wagner and Bunting then cut off a piece of his flesh, fried it and ate it.

1:25:58 Yeah. We're talking cannibalism now. What's the escalation of the behaviours in these murders Is just almost like what you would call textbook, Yes, isn't it like it's it is just. And what would have happened? What would have happened if? What would be the next one? I don't even want to know. How do you go beyond? I literally don't want. To know how do you go beyond cannibalism? Like I don't even know or. Inserting sparklers in someone's penis. Yeah, I I my mind just boggles at it that this was what they would Well, yeah.

1:26:31 Oh, how do you? Think up these things. I don't even. What made him think that? I mean, literally, it was like, almost like, what else has left to do? Well, we might as well eat them now. Yeah. God, yeah. So both both Bunting and Wagner ate that flesh. Gross. So fucking gross. So, yeah. So obviously they put Johnson's body in another barrel whilst at the bank there. And then on the 20th of May, which was only like, well, less than 11 days later, yeah, they were. The bodies in the barrel were discovered at the bank, so it was fairly close to that.

1:27:10 This was, we should say it was Hayden who had leased the space. And this is how this all came about, because they were looking for Hayden's wife. And so obviously they're in trying to investigate that. They look for any holdings that the family may have. And fucking Hayden had rented the bank in his own name. So they're like, Oh well, we need to go and check out what's there. And that's how they found the barrels. Yeah. So obviously in the barrels, they've then found 8 victims in six barrels. Mm hmm.

1:27:42 In the disused bank vault which they sealed up with all this plastic and stuff like trying to trap the smell in as much I guess as they could, but didn't do a great job of that. I think, I think from what they, what the police have said, the vault did trap a lot. Yes. Oh, When they opened it, it was poor. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Bad. Yeah. So obviously, yeah, so 8 bodies were in those six barrels, obviously some distributed across more than one barrel. And we've discussed that they would, you know, to try and do all that what they had to do.

1:28:11 Yeah. But then obviously there were the two victims found buried in the property of of Buntings. And then obviously Trevelyan, who was found suicide, was claimed to be suicide at the time. They then realized and connecting all the dots that was put together that he is one of these victims as well. And also then. Travis as well was added to that list to make the 12 who and his body had been put into a shallow grave on the farm so. I think, you know, all testament to the police for putting these dots together because they actually came about the rest of putting it all together pretty bloody quickly because, yeah, the day after they discovered the bodies in the barrels, they arrested Bunting and Wagner and Hayden, actually, Yeah.

1:28:56 And they charged them with murder at that time. So they had enough evidence within 24 hours. Now I know there was a fairly there was some they were gathering already, starting to gather some ideas, but they had, they certainly did not think that when they opened that bank vault they'd find 8 bodies in six barrels by any stretch. No, they had like separately, I think in terms of investigating missing persons, yeah, they had started going, well, this name's coming up a lot. That name's coming up and they were connecting things, but not quite.

1:29:24 To this but this kind of put it all together. Yeah, they just take a few more days. I think it was 26th of May that they actually. Arrested Vlasakis as well. And I believe that was because of like, once they'd interviewed Bunting, Wagner and Hayden, it became more evident that Vlasakis was involved. Yeah. So I mean, obviously they knew Vlasakis was. He was living with living with Bunting. Yeah. But I mean, he was still such a young man, I. Guess at 19 at that point. Yeah, yeah, a little bit of time.

1:29:54 So apparently Vlasakis in his first interview, he gave about 150 page statement. Yeah, great. Gave a fair amount of detail as to what his involvement was and what had happened. When he was then presented with the fact of like what he was going to be charged with and obviously what the others were going to be eventually charged with. He actually then decided to give another statement which was like 2 1/2 thousand pages long. So which is what meant that him doing that meant that he did get a slightly lesser sentence, I think helped him in that.

1:30:32 Respect, I believe in that process agreed to plead guilty so that that he didn't have to be taken to trial. Yeah. And so that obviously accounted for like a slightly reduced yeah charge sheet and therefore sentence. So look, I guess at this point you can kind of look at that, that Flosakis was, you know, maybe somewhat repenting for what he'd done, trying to make things right, trying to do the right thing, because that certainly was not. The case, I mean, certainly looking after Bunting Wagner in that moment too, Like I I get that.

1:31:09 Because no one else was going to look after him. Bunting, Wagner and Hayden absolutely did not do that and they ensured that their cases were taken to court. Absolutely. So Bunting and Wagner, their trial lasted for 12 months. It was the longest trial in South Australian history to that point. I don't know if since that that's still I would think so I would I mean 12 months. This is the biggest case of a serial killer in Australia. Yeah, like the, you know. Yeah, I dare say this would be the longest.

1:31:38 Still standing. Yeah. So in December of 2003, the trial concluded and Bunting was convicted of 11 of the murders. We explained why it wasn't 12. Susan Allen not being able to be convicted for that murder, Yeah. See it Wagner was convicted of 10 of the murders. He. Only confessed to three, yes. So yeah. Why did he confess to three? No idea, no idea. Lasakas, as we said, pleaded guilty to, in the end, 4 murders. And so and then in 2004, so the following year, Hayden was convicted of five counts of assisting with murders, even though he only admitted to two of them.

1:32:17 He only and and admitted only to assisting them. He's never, he's never admitted and never been charged with any of the actual murders and. There's no, there's no evidence to support a conviction, A yeah, a conviction for murder on his behalf. So. Yeah, yeah, I think there were two further murders that he could have been charged with. Oh, right. But the the jury. Couldn't come to a version. OK. Yeah. Yeah. So at sentencing, the judge basically said that Bunting was the ringleader. He fully acknowledged the fact that if it wasn't for him, a lot of this probably wouldn't have taken place.

1:32:57 Yeah, he was given 11. So Bunting was given 11 consecutive life terms without the possibility of parole. Wagner was given 10 life sentences under the same conditions. And Wagner as he was being sentenced. Yes. Said like made a statement to the court. I don't think he was allowed to, but he did. No, they sometimes they do say. I don't think he was allowed to. I believe he yelled this out as he was kind of being walked out. Yeah, Yeah. He said pedophiles were doing terrible things to children. The authorities didn't do anything about it.

1:33:32 I decided to take action. I took action. Thank you. Like he's fucking war cry. Like no mate, no. No, because not all these people. Well, there's no evidence, actually, other than probably lying. Yeah. To say that they were pedophiles. Yep. Yeah. Lasakas was given four life sentences with a 26 year non parole period. Yeah, and Hayden was given 25 years, 18 years non parole. And in February of 2004 he was actually granted parole. Apparently his behaviour in prison was excellent. I, I, I'd love to hear your thoughts on him walking out because I mean I. I go back to the fact that this man has an intellectual disability and was probably very, very easily LED that.

1:34:18 But why does that mean he's not potentially going to be easily LED into the future by someone else, by another psychopath? Because, you know, a psychopath's going to prey on the vulnerable, and he's vulnerable. He's proven that. So I don't know. Whether we don't know where he is in. Well, he was. He was released into a facility, but then he left the facility. He was allowed to do. He didn't leave. Leave like you know he was there for a month. Yeah. And then left. Yeah. So he's out wandering and then around like it's.

1:34:50 I reckon that's concerning, but. It is. Concerned he needs to be tracked in some way. I mean, I'm sure there's conditions of his parole, but I don't know that it's a worry. Yeah. And then in terms of Visakas, he is due for to be considered for parole this year and. He is it, yeah. Yeah, but so The thing is, so his name's been changed, he's in prison under a different name, and a lot of information and everything around him has been suppressed. We don't actually know if he will be up. You know, he won't be in the he won't be in the media.

1:35:25 When Hayden went up for parole, it was all in the media. We will not know anything about for Sarkis's parole, whether or not he gets it. We won't know if he's walking the streets. And I, I have an opinion on what I think of that. Well, I would hope that in the system he has been given the a lot of psychological help. If that has been the case, if he has been given all the support he should and he deserves to get, I don't have an issue with him potentially getting out. OK. I know that's controversial.

1:36:04 I mean, if there is any inkling of him being in prison and not being the excellent, you know, inmate that Hayden has been deemed to be, yeah, no, he shouldn't get out. If there is any sign of. I mean, and I put trust into a parole board making that decision of like what he's whether he's made progress in terms of all those things. And I, I really do hope for him that that's. And what's happened in our country, we send people to prison for reform. Yeah. So I understand what you're saying. Yeah, I worry that because he was indoctrinated into this at such a young age and in like in his formative years, these were the experiences that that formed his life.

1:36:49 Yeah, Yep. And this is by no means his fault, but I, I, I don't know what the likelihood is that he can be fully reformed. Yeah, I think it's, it's me hoping, I think. I think you're yeah, same. I I get what you're saying. I feel a lot of I don't think sympathy is the right word my. Fatherly instincts get in with him. I think of like, oh God, kid. Like if only you'd had a better freaking kid. Yeah, if you had had a better life. You wouldn't have done this and and done this. He wouldn't have. No, he wasn't a bad kid.

1:37:24 No, he had. He was in a bad situation. He was in a really bad situation and his mum let a really bad guy. Mm hmm. Into their lives like and then she. But then you look at her and you think, well, she didn't have the best upbringing. So what? God known, she didn't either. So fucked up her. Mum apparently said to her things like, or you should have just been an abortion in a bucket. Mm hmm. I mean, the, the cycle, the generational cycle of this is just horrendous. Yeah. And I mean, and that's what I kind of, I mean, I guess there's this like hope in me.

1:37:57 Yeah. For sakers can end that cycle, you know, like for that of that abuse, It's it's just horrible. Yeah, as you said, these people should. Never have experienced what they experienced. You know, like all of them, all of these perpetrators should not have experienced what they experienced, but they should not have perpetrated that on others either. That's exactly right and but with the exception of Lasakas, because he was so frigging young like. Yeah, they were all so young at one point, experiencing not to the, I think.

1:38:28 No, no, experiencing it, I guess escalated perpetrating it, not yes, no, that's right. That's like that's what I'm saying. Like for me, yeah, you choose your choices as well. Like as in your choosing to perpetrate those crimes, You're not choosing to join the Air Force and become a cadet and get yourself out of that shit. You're actually actively then as an adult engaging in what you're engaging in. And that's that's your choice at the end of the day. And I'm not saying that their experiences haven't formed or given them a pathway, a really easy pathway down to that, to that choice.

1:39:03 But I don't know, there's personalities in there. There's experiences, everything that kind of makes that up. But yeah, I would like to think that. And, and not even, I would like to think I know that not a lot of people make those choices. So there's still, you know, generally speaking, people choose not to. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Perpetrate these crimes just really quickly as well. I think we you kind of touched on it before, but this serial killing is this type of serial killing is extremely rare.

1:39:36 Yeah. So generally a serial killer is a male, next is a female. Oh, sorry. Next is 2 males, then it's a single female. And right down the list in terms of serial killers is a group of people, Right. So in in the world, there are not many serial killings that are perpetrated by more than two people. But that's why this has got like that cult feel of it too. Agreed. Like. So it's definitely that ringleader. Mentality. This word mentality. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, it's it's just, it's fascinating and the psychology of it all of like in the Yeah, but.

1:40:12 Oh God yeah, horrific. To be in the wrong place at the wrong time and involved in those with those pieces of shit. I mean God. The bank to this day has been it was. It was put up for auction I think in like 2010 or 2012, something like that. It didn't even meet half the reserve. So it was passed in and then it was sold by private sale for $185,000. And the people who've bought the bank, yeah, they. So it's actually the bank has a four bedroom house attached to it as well. They have opened like a little brick, a Brack shop in there and they live there to this day.

1:40:47 Yeah, there's a plaque on top of the bank vault that says, and I think this, this is a really nice way to end our episode. Yeah. In memory of those taken by evil, greed and ignorance. Whoever came up with that? Fucking nailed it. Yeah, absolutely. Totally. This was a bloody heavy one. Absolutely, yeah. There's a lot of resources out there. I you know, if this is something that you're interested in, there's lots of podcasts. The movie is quite true. So Snowtown is quite true to real life events. There's documentaries, there are like, you know, there's lots of lots and lots of different information out there, so.

1:41:35 Yeah. Please stay tuned for next week, next week. So we're actually heading up to Queensland. So another Australian case. Another. One we've had a lot of requests for too, actually. Yeah, we have. So we're going to be covering the Alison Bait and Clay murder and which I mean, again, this is deep on another on a whole nother level. It is, and I mean, I've very much remember this. Occurring. Yeah. This is in absolute living memory for us. So yeah, yeah, it'll be another one, another big one to research this week.

1:42:07 But not A2 parter. Not A2 parter, no. We do try and avoid them where you know, we're not, we don't really like doing 2 parters, but this was a perfect timing for us probably to tackle it and we've yeah, this is a big one. So it was definitely worthy of A2 parter. Great. Thank you so much for tuning in again. If you would like us to, if you would like to buy us a coffee or a wine, obviously, you know, we mostly use it for wine, please head to buy me a coffee.com/two Crime Besties. So all one word, TWO crime besties.

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