Episode 34 - Snowtown/Bodies in the Barrels: Part 1

0:15 Welcome to Two Crime Besties everyone, for another another episode. Thank you for joining us. Welcome. Welcome, everyone. I can't believe we've even managed to get here today, to be perfectly honest. I think we're we've discussed this morning how just insane everything is at the moment. So I think the fact that we are both sitting here ready to go as much as we can be, I think for this episode. Oh yeah, is a real well done to both of us. I agree. It's been a really tough slog. I feel like this last, I don't know, this last couple of weeks has just been like trudging through mud and so much has been going on.

0:51 We've had busy school things happening. We've had busy out of school things happening. Yeah. And I was just saying to you before we started recording, I feel like most years we start to get into the routine and I really thrive in that. Yeah, I hang for it. Like, yeah, we're talking about how, you know, you're really looking forward to getting back in a routine. Yeah, but I feel like at the minute I'm just not there. No, it's actually stressing me out. I don't know. There's just so much going on and it's not all fitting in.

1:16 And yeah, it's just a lot. As I said to you, we're not alone because I was talking to multiple people. We're at a function at school last night and every person I spoke to you, I have to say, every female I spoke to said to me the exact same thing. Oh, I'm just feeling so overwhelmed. Like there's so much stuff on at the moment and everyone and they were telling me about like, you know, someone's moving house, you know? Like that's the worst. Absolutely, but like everyone had like different things that were overwhelming them.

1:44 But so we're not all saying that oh, you know, XYZ the exact same things that were too much for the beginning of the year. Everyone had their own different things on their plate that were. Yeah, overwhelming and too much. Yeah. Yeah. To top it off, my eldest broke his finger yesterday. So, you know, we spent the day in Ed. Well, not the day, actually. It was amazing. They were great. And we were in and out pretty quickly. But I, you know, it's just, I feel like that's just been the straw this week that that broke my back so.

2:13 Absolutely. I'm gonna see a little love hurt, like at all. That's it. And the fact that he's, you know, this is not the first time around his recent memory. Yeah, he's had a really rough trot the last 12 months. He's had a few broken bones and knee things happening and anyway, but we'll get through it. It's just in the moment, it's a lot to take on it. And I've got a feel for him, too, because he's, you know, realizing that he's gonna miss out on some sport, which is really, really important to him.

2:42 And so it's sort of managing all those emotions and everything. Absolutely from both of us, not just him, but me too. Well, 'cause you need him to have those outlets. Too. Because yeah. He's gotta move to be able to, you know, have calmer moments and exactly when that, you know, yeah, limits that. I mean, not as, I mean, with a finger, it's not as bad as a leg situation like. But at the same time, he's still not gonna be playing the competitive sports that he would otherwise be doing that. So yeah, yeah, it's a lot.

3:07 A lot it is. It is, but as I said, we will get there. Yes. It'll all be OK. Yeah. So just before we jumped on to record this episode, I was like. And we we normally just have a bit of a chat about what we're gonna talk about and sort of lead into the episode with. And you said in our last episode, we said that we were going to do some quizzes about our love languages. I clearly forgot to do that. So I just quickly did one before we pressed record. Well, first of all, it said it was free. Yeah. And then it turned out not to be free, but I was saying to you, what was one of the questions it asked me it.

3:44 Was like would you prefer? Yeah, would you buy? Would you prefer someone bought you a drink or touched your face lovingly? I was like Oh my God, buy me a drink. Do not touch my face. Oh my God, who wants to do? Who wants someone like their their their person to like touch their face? Gross. Say no thanks. Buy me a drink any day. Yeah, yeah. Who's choosing that over buying you a drink? You know what? I'd like to see that kind of person. I don't think that person exists. No. Well, if they do, they're strange.

4:18 That's weird. That's super weird. I love the one you quickly just jumped on though. It was like, you know, Oh my God, yes, take the bins out without being have being enough to. Ask you Yeah, that is my love language. Like, yeah, do things without me having to ask. Look for things and identify things that need doing and do them. So I think removing that mental load, that's it. I think my love language is Acts of Service, which I think I alluded to in that episode anyway. Yeah, mine came. I did 2.

4:42 I did actually more than two cause yeah, I found out that some of them cost money. You could you get through it. There's freaking shit loads of questions like yeah, you do the full thing and then you get to the end it goes, yeah. Do you get your answers? We'll e-mail it to you when you pay $30. Yeah, fuck off. Yeah, so I didn't do quite a few of them. OK, Yeah, so but two of them that I did do that we're free, came out with acts of service. So there you go. Yeah. Yeah, that's yeah. Do shit for me without me having to tell you.

5:08 Exactly identify need and fulfill. That, yes, yes. Because I mean, I think as we're just saying, before the overwhelm at the moment, is it crazy? It's that we need mental load taken off of us, yeah. Yeah, yeah, that'd be lovely. That will get me to return the favour in ways. That's it exactly. Absolutely. It goes both ways. Come on. That's it. I know. The other one was some I sit on my knee. Fuck off. Oh, like, yeah, that was one of the would you rather your partner sat on your knee or talked to you about their feelings?

5:38 And I was like, well, not sit on my knee. Like I'm an adult. Like, yeah, and there's, I don't know, maybe. Oh, oh, no, no. If Peter had sat on my knee I'd be like oh fuck off. Yeah. What are you doing? But that's. Not romantic coming and sitting. No, that's not romantic. That's just weird and yeah, needy or something, I don't know. No, not into it. Oh God, I thought. Oh. Anyway, we are doing a massive case today. Oh, it's. Huge, huge, huge. And yeah, so we've decided to split it into two for that exact reason, for I think our own compartmentalising of the case, but also so like we can get it all in because it's just too much.

6:22 There's so much so we're doing. We're talking about the snow town bodies in the barrels murders today and next week. When I was researching this, I was like, Oh my God, there is so, so, so, so, so much. And there's a huge. We've had a huge interest in this case as well. So we've had quite a number of people ask for it. Yeah. And want us to cover it. So that's why we kind of kind of doing it now. But did you find this one really tough to? Or to research real tough. I think I I said to you there was a particularly the movie.

6:57 There's a movie of it that I watched that I was like, oh, like I had to actually pause, walk away at times. But not only that, during it I was like, Oh no, I actually can't watch that so. I watched the movie. So the Snowtown movie was made in 2011. It is like critically acclaimed. It's it is a brilliant movie. I watched it in four sitting and I found myself getting so uncomfortable. I'm one of those people, like when I watch TV, people watch a movie or do anything, I really try not to have my phone in my hand or, you know, if I'm watching TV, I'm watching TV.

7:32 Yeah. And especially when I'm doing research as well because obviously you want to concentrate. But I actually found myself like getting my phone and like not wanting to see what was on the screen. So I'd be like trying to, I was, I don't know, to distract myself. Yeah, I was exactly. The same is so confronting and they say that the movie is really quite accurate to true life events. And I have to agree these in terms of the fact the research, I've dance same that it, it, it what, what I was cringing at in the movie was then I went and read it somewhere as well, like, you know, in, in transcripts, et cetera, that I was like, oh, whoa, like, and the movie was actually the catalyst for there was a whole lot of this case that was repressed and put under orders of not being able to be released.

8:14 And it was the when the the move they were wanting to make the movie, they put an application to the courts to release that information so that they could make the movie and make some of this information public. Yes, and names and yeah, places, but also the, you know, the intricate details of the murders and those sorts of things. So they have used factual information obviously within the movie. So it's pretty hardcore. It's. Really hardcore. Yeah. So the movie was released in 2011 and these crimes were committed between August 1992 and May of 1999.

8:50 So I guess, you know, 12 odd years or whatever had no 2020 plus years had gone by. Yeah. And No, 10 plus years time maths was not great had gone by and but still it was such a sensitive time for the people of SA because I read somewhere it was an editorial. I think it was might have been in the South Australian newspaper where they basically said this is burnt into the minds and the experiences of the South Australian people of the time. And while a lot of it was suppressed in the media, it was still, a lot of it was known or even a lot of the details were sort of, although they weren't reported through newspapers, people sort of knew about the story and knew what was going on or knew someone who knew someone who.

9:48 Well, this is the thing. There was over 400 people who'd been called as witnesses in the trials. So I mean, I mean Adelaide's not the biggest, you know, state of our country that, you know, yes, word would definitely travel of, you know, someone who knows someone would spread that word of what went on, of what each person saw and. I think looking back at what was released in the media in 1999 when this all came to to the fore, there was enough reported back then as well. Like I. Was know it was bad.

10:18 It was really bad, yeah. And I was watching a I think it was like the seven or Nine News coverage of the day. They found the bodies in the barrels. Yeah. And even the stuff that they were reporting that day about what the police officers saw, that was confronting enough. Yes. And you can draw your own conclusions from even. Just that side of the story. There is police officers, a forensic pathologist, all these people who went into this scene and who to this day have PTSD from that particular day, you know, so it's, it's traumatized so many people.

10:52 I think it's probably worth getting into it now because I think So what we're going to do, the way we're going to split this up, we're going to actually start with the perpetrators and their backgrounds and sort of build up to the point where they start the killing spree. And then next week, tune back in and we'll actually be going into quite a lot of detail about the murders, I think. We should say, I mean the the murders are horrific, but the the perpetrators lives prior to, you know, perpetrating these crimes were horrific.

11:30 Yeah. I've seen that many crimes committed against people in this that it is an absolute shit show. Yeah, look, I fully agree. And that's why we thought we'd go about it by doing this way. Before we get started though, I think I need to, we need to sort of say a few things. So first of all, we're going to be discussing some really horrific things in these next two episodes. Yes, we are also going to be discussing crimes against the LGBTQIA plus community. We will be using language that was used by the perpetrators of yes, these crimes.

12:07 And this in no way reflects our feelings or thoughts towards people in the in the LGBTQIA plus community. We absolutely do not feel that way. We are literally telling factual information, yeah, about this story. So. And we're here to learn too, in terms of we hope we're using the correct language when it is US discussing it from our opinions, etcetera. And if we're not, please inform us. Absolutely. I'm here to learn. Yeah. Yeah. And we also, obviously, we want to be really sensitive to that. Yeah, in not just in these episodes, but in any potential episodes going forward.

12:44 So yeah, we'll always open to that. Yeah, so we'll also be discussing suicide, suicide ideation as well. So if anyone's feeling a little bit sensitive, please, you know, seek help as well. Call Lifeline 131114. And yeah, lots of help out there. Yeah. But yeah, if this episode is not for you, flick on to this one and the next one, skip over because there's some whole lot of, yeah, sexual assault as well against young children. Everything is in this episode. Yeah, Yeah. OK, let's get started. I feel like we're putting it off, I know, but I'm also really happy to start to read this of my brain.

13:25 Same. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I have to say, it really has been a hard slog to research for that reason, like as we said about the movie and. But reading what I've read, yeah, Yeah, it's a lot, yeah. All right, so the snow town bodies and the barrels murders as they have come to be known. Yeah, I've just said the town of Snow Town prefer this to be called as the bodies and the barrels because we should say Snow Town is where the bodies were found. Only one murder took place there. Everything else took place in other other parts of Adelaide.

14:01 So that's it. Snow Town's well known for this when it's really not that major part of the scene. Only the end, really. And it was really only at the very end. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So Snowtown is actually located halfway between Port Augusta and Adelaide. So it's about A. Is it about 100 kilometers A? 140 kilometers north of Adelaide, yeah. So most of the crimes that we'll be talking about take place in Adelaide and and sort of in the surrounding suburbs of Adelaide. So, yeah, yeah, just sort of maybe keep that in mind.

14:34 The killing spree took place, as I mentioned, between August of 1992 and May of 1999. And over that time there were 12 victims. As we said, we'll get to all of that in next week's episode, but it's just something to keep in mind that, you know, in that seven years, there were 12 murders perpetrated against some innocent people in the end, some not. So we'll get to, again. We'll get to that. Yeah. So who were The Who were the perpetrators of this crime? Yes, we had John Justin Bunting, who was the ringleader, really.

15:10 He, and this was acknowledged by the courts at the end once this all came about as well, that he was the ringleader and he was the main perpetrator of all of these crimes, his offsider Robert Joe Wagner. We had James. Now how do you say his middle name? Oh. The middle name I'm really I keep. I look at it and go spirited spirit. Spartan. I think the middle name though. Is that his actual father's surname? I oh. No, wait, I'm actually it's already No Vasakis was hit. No, it's all right. Yeah, because I thought, I think Vasakis was his.

15:42 I think. Dad's surname. Dad's first name could have been something along the lines. Maybe. But anyway, it's spelled SPYRIDON, however you pronounce that. Apologies. James Vlasakis. Yeah, James Vlasakis. In fact, that was the only time I wrote down his middle name was here. He's off. You know, this is like that whole thing with bad people. That Roy. He was. He was. Bolton with their middle names. Like, what the hell? Then we've got Mark Hayden. Yeah, who? Look, he was in the end charged as an accessory and and not actually of committing any of the murders.

16:18 But again, we will get to all the twins as it goes through. Start with John Bunting. Or should we add Elizabeth Harvey to that list? Yes, yes. And Elizabeth? Harvey Yep. So she was Bunting's partner in the end, like. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I should say too like these though, that who we've named they are are the main culprits of all this. There are many other within the circle, many people that we could name here, but we won't because it will get confusing because there are so many. But we'll we're going to focus on them as being the main culprits, which is agreed amongst circles of this, but there is definitely more people involved in this than just those people.

16:58 There's also a lot of people involved involved in that. They knew things and didn't do anything about it so you could cast the net that's. Exactly right. That's what I mean, there's many people that you could attach to all of this as well. But these are the the main runners. The the, the stay is within most of all the the incidents. Yeah, yeah, yeah, all. Right. I'm going to start with John Bunting. Yeah, I mean. Even before we start with John Bunting, let's set the scene of where we are. So in terms of where they were living in this town of Salisbury North, the way it was described, well, in 1997 there was a report done by the State Housing Trust that actually in this document labeled Salisbury North an urban crime ghetto.

17:42 So yeah, they were living in this space where it was basically Commission housing, you know, as far as the eye could say. So this town and space that they were living in was that the employee unemployment rate was 36%. Basically it was not a nice place to be. You were everyone that was living there was there because of there were ex criminals or current criminals. You know they permanently had alcohol attached to their hand if not hard drugs. That's the community that they lived. In it was a very, very low socio economic area.

18:19 Yeah. And as you said, it was all government housing. So government supported housing. And the government have acknowledged since this that setting up Commission housing like that in terms of putting it all in one space is not the ideal way of doing that because yes, people need support and housing for various reasons, but to put them all in together is not ideal. It's, it creates an environment that it's not safe. Yeah, to put these Commission housings within other spaces and in other communities where those supports can be put in place far, far better.

18:53 And with other things around them is a far better idea than having these ghettos is what it created. Yeah, it's it's it definitely created a very interesting melting pot of people. So let's start with John Bunting. So John Justin Bunting was born on the 4th of September in 1966 in Queensland in Inala. The, the suburb that he grew up in sounds very much like Salisbury North where he ended up. So Inala was a very impoverished town. Again, a lot of government housing. And so John was raised in in that environment.

19:33 And look, he was born to a mother who was very conservative. She was a homemaker. And so, I mean, she was, she was around, but I've heard she was quite emotionally void. Yeah. And so she's he's grown up in a house where, OK, yes, he's mum's home all the time, but she wasn't necessarily nurturing and, and supporting her children. I. Heard his dad was quite actively involved. Yeah, well, no, I don't think so. Well, didn't he build him like a space for him to do his photography and stuff at home? He did.

20:10 So his dad, his dad's name was Tom Bunting. He was, he was a bit of a no hoper actually. I think he he saw himself as a bit of an aspiring musician and he worked at a sawmill and sawed his finger off and then couldn't play. He was like a finger picker guitarist. And so then he couldn't do that. And then that sort of spiraled him into like a bit of a depression. I think the house was described as not very loving. There was a lot of physical abuse between not only John Bunting and his, like, his father perpetrating that on John, but also on the mother.

20:48 So he's grown up in a really volatile household.

20:53 John Bunting reports being assaulted by and raped by a friend's older brother. The friend, his friend, was also a victim in this situation. And the way he describes this event is that he was over at his friend's house. His older brother was there and they tied him to a bed. So then the older brother had some friends there. They tied him to a bed and sodomized him repeatedly. It's just horrific. The friends joined in. So this was like a group attack. And the incident was actually interrupted by the boy's father.

21:36 And the boy's father basically said, oh, get off him, but didn't call the police, didn't do anything about it, just said to said to John Bunting, oh, you might want to go to the doctor on your way home and get get yourself checked out. So with that, the the son who was the perpetrator of this crime, when he got caught out, he jumped on his bike and fled. John Bunting was walking home. The boy on the bike got hit by a truck and killed like literally half an hour after sodomizing Bunting, and John Bunting decided to just walk home.

22:14 Now, apparently he was bleeding like from the rape. He got home and he had all these cuts and stuff on his face because he'd been trying to, I don't know, defend himself, I guess. Gets home and his mum was just really angry at him for being late for dinner. Can.

22:32 You imagine being 8 and that being. Eight years old. And it being so like, yeah, oh, so that happened. Yep. Like just, oh God. I mean, in later years, and this is the thing where we go by Bunting's story of this occurring, like we, there's no evidence as such, like in terms of it occurring. I tried to. Find like the the the friend who because because his friend was also raped by his brother and the friends of the brother but I couldn't actually find anything about him. No, so it is, it is Bunting's word.

23:05 And I'm not saying that it's not factual because it's quite a story really in terms of the fact of that's that day he gets hit by a truck and he's killed. But in late, in later years, Bunting talks about the fact of like, you know that Well, you know, I didn't need to hunt him down and kill him because he was already dead. Like he, you know, so he was like, yeah. That's what was coming, Yep. Yeah, which is, I mean, really fucked up. Yep. But I mean, he's his upbringing is really, you know, has brought that to him.

23:31 Like it's just, yeah, can't even imagine. Can't even imagine. No Bunting did a few really weird things as a kid, and I think that's. Yeah. Again, we're building to something here, aren't we? Regulations it is. Yeah. He'd. He was obsessed with chemicals. Yeah. And he was obsessed with digging holes. Yes. And so this is tunnels under his house. Yeah. So apparently he, like, screwed up the foundations to the house because he dug so far under that he'd actually taken away the earth that the foundations were sitting on.

24:04 Yeah. Like the bedrock? Essentially like he was, he was putting all like, you know, boarding it all in and stuff and, you know, supporting the tunnel. Yeah. But to think about the house above, yeah. Yeah, yeah, this is just, I'm just going to mention this here. This is the first time that it made me, this case made me think of the Castle, the movie, You know, I dug a hole. We'll get to that. We'll get to that a little bit later. Yeah. So just keep that in mind. This comes up more than once. But yeah, he loved digging holes.

24:33 And in terms of like he had an obsession with chemicals as well. And he would, he would find different chemicals around the house. And I think because I think you've said before, his dad was kind of a little bit handy and did a few bits and pieces building and other things like that. And he had, you know, various chemicals lying around the house and he would get insects and try to kill the insects in different concoctions of chemicals and see what happened. And. He he would put them in acid. Yes, and see what would happen.

25:03 And see what would happen. Yeah, yeah. But he was really heavily, heavily into photography, which which is what then led to the chemicals. Like, you know, he basically through the act of doing the photography and developing those pictures because, you know, back before we had digital photos, yeah, you know, to like develop those images. It's a very chemical based process. And so through that became very interested in the chemicals, but he's also very interested in anatomy and he was. And so he wasn't, it was not a deal by any means.

25:32 Quite an intelligent person in that respect, far above probably most people in living around him. Yeah. But obviously school and things weren't priority. Yeah, it's probably fair to say. I think that's very, very fair to say. Yeah. But he, he also then like it escalated in terms of then his interest in animals, in terms of how like as you're saying they're with insects. And then it gravitated towards at the age of 22 when he got a job at an abattoir, Yes, and this became a real strong influence on him if like he would brag about slaughtering the animals and he wasn't actually even when he first started there, that wasn't his role at an eventually worked in abattoir.

26:11 He wasn't the one killing killing the animals. He did move to that section out of showing their strong interest in having a go. Which I mean, that's bloody weird in and of it. So just quickly going back when he was 13, he met No, no, that's fine. I mean, this kind of all ties into it. But when he was 13, he met this older guy Benny. So thinking of the situation that he was living in low socioeconomic area, lots of people like around all day, every day. And he meets this older bloke named Benny. Now, Benny had a very troubled upbringing in and of himself.

26:42 He had his own issues going on and but they really struck up a friendship. I think there was something like 20 years difference in them or something like that. It was, it was a significant difference. Benny was an adult. Yeah. So he claims, so Bunting claims that Benny taught him how to kill and that was what they decided to do and it was killing animals at this point. But I mean, Bunting's 13 years of age and he's got this adult bloke teaching him how to kill animals that then to be. Given an adult being a friend of a 13 year old.

27:17 Exactly weird. And then the fact of what they're actually doing together. Yeah, yeah. That then sparked his interest in applying for this job at the abattoir, as you said. And because he'd had this, or what Bunting describes as this experience already having killed animals, that's how he then got to move to the kill floor. And he was, like, cutting the animals up once they'd been slaughtered and really, like, enjoy relishing in it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, people very often spoke about the fact that, you know, just in, you know, having a beer at the pub kind of situation.

27:50 He'd be like, his conversation wasn't like, you know, I had a hard day at work. Wanted to tell you all about, like, it was excited over it. It was quite bizarre. Yeah. Weird. Yeah, Really, really weird. Yeah. In his early 20s, he met a woman by the name of Veronica. Now, Veronica was uneducated. They met in a metal working class, or they were learning to Weld, I think because they had to, in order to receive benefits, they had to either be working towards a trade or trying to find a vocation. And so I believe that's how they met.

28:30 She was illiterate. She was blind in one eye and partially blind in the other, and she was partially deaf and. She was going to do welding. Well, I guess if sorry, what? Maybe she'd exhausted all other options in terms of trying to so she could get a welfare. I don't know. God, I don't know what her motivation was. No, but they met and married pretty bloody quickly, she had described Bunting as. Charismatic, she. She's literally quoted as as saying he was really charismatic. He engaged her immediately.

29:12 Now, what was his motivation behind engaging in a relationship with a woman who had an intellectual disability who was blind? Mostly blind, mostly deaf. It the motivation there, you know, given what we know, he had above average intelligence. On that line of that charismatic I mean he was there is AI didn't read a reference that an employer wrote for him to look for another job and it really it said like he's hard working shows initiative, you know like he gets the job done really and they really pushed how how much of A great bloke he was Mm hmm.

29:52 So it gives you that whole idea like, yeah, yeah, he he wasn't atypical in terms of no, the area in that respect, he and. He also wasn't a drug taker at that. No. So he was not into drugs at all, whereas I could imagine every, like a lot of other people in that situation, yeah, drugs were just part of their everyday life and that would they were in that environment. It would have been very easy for him to also engage in those behaviors, but he was adamantly. He was 100% not a drug taker. He's also been described as manipulative, persuasive, and I I was listening to a podcast about him and a woman had described him.

30:33 Apparently he dichmatized people. So what? That's not a word I've ever heard before. No, no, it's like a it's a hybrid word. Yeah. It's like he hypnotized them with his Dick.

30:49 Oh, I think he thought he was a bit of a Casanova and a bit of AI mean. You look at him and he's. Gross. I mean. He's little. Yeah, he's very, he's very quite short. And I thought somewhat where I read that it was described as he got Tubby up each year. Like, I mean, by the time you see the photos of him when he's arrested, yeah, he's tubby and that he's not attractive. No, but women did fall for him like very quickly. And I mean look, very low socio economic area. The women that he was attracting and who became enamoured with him were of low intelligence.

31:25 And I don't mean that derogatory, I just mean that that's he did sort of target. People he could manipulate, I think, easier. And I think that was the motivation by him. Yeah. Veronica. Because, yes, he was able to control her. She did. And then the welfare payments that she would bring in, that's the other thing. Yeah. And because she had a permanent disability, she actually didn't have to work for a welfare payment. No. And so that that definitely helped, yeah. Because he certainly wasn't really interested in monogamy.

31:53 Oh. No, I don't think he there was ever monogamy. No, no. And but he wasn't like also someone who I think openly was like, I need more women, bring more women. Like they just sort of came to him a little bit. Yeah, apparently someone described him. I can't remember whether who it was who described him in this way, but they said he was almost irresistible to a certain type of woman. And the more or the more I read about him and, and we'll get further into why this word, these words were used to describe him that I I feel these words describe him as that he was cult like leader.

32:23 Oh yeah, I mean he, he. Absolutely charismatic cult leader was is who he was. He could attract people who wanted to be around him. And people wanted to do what he said to. So if he told you that you're going to be his girlfriend, then you're going to be his girlfriend. Yeah, probably. Yeah, yeah. Because I mean, around the same time around Veronica sort of thing, he started getting into quite a bit of like this if Nazi sort of rhetoric, ideation, ideation. Yeah. So but to the point where he tried to join quite a few groups of some Nazi groups who told him no, no, no, they kicked him out because his ideas were too extreme.

33:03 And these are these are people who are Nazi sympathizers. Well, he was and they thought he was too extreme. Yeah. I mean, this gives you a really good idea of just the the type of person he is. I think it's, it's one thing to sort of read about the things that he's done and they are like, you can't even imagine it. But the fact that people who you would think are possibly like similarly minded if they find him too extreme, that's that's saying something. Yeah, well, because like, yeah, I, I get, OK, so this guy's had this horrific childhood being sexually assaulted, you know, awful, awful.

33:41 And I can imagine being so angry about that, that happening to you of like, I'm going to make sure this doesn't happen to anyone else. And there's a level of that that I can completely sympathize with. But then he takes it to so extreme levels of like, he, he, there's so many people around him that have also experienced these situations and being assaulted themselves or their children being assaulted. And it's like, so they're all like, you know, yes, yes, like we need to do something about this.

34:08 And that I can understand, I can fully get on board with a group of people all feeling the same anger around these things are going on. It's just then how he then goes about doing that, obviously, and where and then that the fact that that became misplaced, a misplaced, but also then it it shifted from that being his motivation. Will will he use it as an excuse for his motivation? Although at the end of the day, that wasn't true. Yeah, we'll get into that. But there's so much in that. Yeah. So he's obviously then moved to from Queensland before, you know, all this and he's moved to Salisbury North in South Australia.

34:49 Do you know why he moved? No, no, I I couldn't find why he moved either. No. So I'm not sure what the motivation was to move from Queensland down to SA, but he ended up where he ended up. Yeah, all right. For these poor people around him. Poor, poor people. I don't think it would have mattered where he was, but. He just happened to be the absolutely SA. I completely agree. I think this would have occurred with him being the central point. No matter where he was, he would find that kind of area. Yeah, that would he'd find these people, these like minded people.

35:22 Yeah, yeah, yeah. So his main offsider was Robert Wagner? Yeah, he was born on the 28th of November in 1971 in Parramatta. So he was born in New South Wales. He so he's what, five years younger than Bunting and really looked up to Bunting. Although Bunting had to look up to him because. He was so much. Totally good point.

35:49 They met in 1991 in Salisbury North. Similarly, Robert Wagner, I'm not sure the motivation of why he moved, but he moved from NSW to SA. Yeah. Do you know why?

36:03 No, because hang on. So he must have done that quite young or when did he move there Was he did he move to Salisbury North with Barry Lane? Yes. Yeah, yes. So it would have been with him so because when he was a child. So he was 18 when he moved there. Yeah. So when he was 14, yeah, Wagner was pulled under the wing of a man by a woman by the name of. So I'm going to stuff that up. He identified she identified as female by that stage. No. Well, I believe at the point. So when you read any reference to this at that time point, she is referred to as Barry Lane.

36:48 Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right. Well, so so Barry Lane sort of took Wagner under his wing. Barry Lane was a known. He was known to be trans and he would dress female. And he also, well, yeah, presented as gay. But he spent a lot of time with Wagner as a child. Who he Wagner had already been sexually assaulted when he was seven. Yeah. He couldn't read or write. He he'd already tried to take his own life using his mum's sleeping pills. Yeah, so he was only 7 years of age, so he'd he'd endured a sexual assault.

37:26 He then tried to kill himself. Yeah, his parents didn't give enough of a shit about him to even care whether he went to school or not. No, he just roamed. The he just literally at the age of seven, Oh my God. Like we've got 7 and 8 year olds. Like Can you imagine? No way in hell. But I mean, obviously I just can't imagine that I. Can't imagine, no. So his mum had already had was attempting suicide as well. Yeah, to say I mean, so I think he basically what he did was what his mum had done and tried to do things that way yeah, he just.

37:55 He'd been witnessing those things. Do you know if? His parents knew about the sexual assault or did they just not care? I don't think they really cared. I don't know. I couldn't be. That's from my take of that was that there was no interest in him as in that point they did show interest slightly when he disappeared, you know, because he was roaming the streets and met up with this Barry Lane and. When he met Barry Lane, yeah, he was 14 years of age. Yeah. Barry was 30. Yeah. Yeah. Just fucking watch.

38:24 And it was a pretty much, well, I think it was just known that they were in a sexual relationship at that point. Yeah, which just. So at this point, Barry Lane is cross dressing. So he's trans. Well, transge he's and he's starting to take female hormones. So he's starting the transition. He's a known pedophile. And I just even though, so apparently Robert was quite big for his age, so he was actually quite tall. I mean, we, we, we know he's a tall, ended up being a tall man, but people thought he was much older than what he was.

39:00 Barry Lane knew for sure how old he was and was clearly exploiting that. Yeah, apparently when he disappeared. So Robert has gone missing at the age of 14 under the wing of Barry Lane. Yeah, and his mum did care. Yeah, she did look like and report him missing. Yeah, they did. She did do the right things. But they didn't they nobody found them. But the two of them are gone. They were gone for four years. Yeah, and that apparently I read somewhere that the authority said to Robert's mum, to Wagner's mum.

39:35 Well, he's almost of age so. Yeah, just. Like he'll be fine. It'll be right. And then when they returned, they were just an openly gay couple. Yeah. Like, so he's now 18, I guess. So he's legal aged now at this point. And so, yeah, they were just an openly gay couple. But it was very clear it was a very volatile relationship between the two of them. There was definitely violence. There was definitely also bestiality occurring. Oh, my God. They had multiple dogs that in the home that they were living in.

40:03 This was. And so this was just common fact. Yeah, they moved. They moved into a house down the street from Bunting at this point, and they they owned a Doberman and an Alsatian. The house was apparently absolutely disgusting. There was like animal excrement in the house. There was like rotting food. There were rats. It was just uninhabitable really. But they lived in that environment, in that absolute filth. Apparently Barry Lane would, but he preferred the Doberman and would penetrate the Doberman.

40:44 Oh. It's I just oh, revolting, revolting. Oh my God. Anyway they. Befriended bunting because like attracts like. Well also though, Magna wasn't gay. No. Well, Wagner didn't know. I think as in he has gotten caught up in this relationship with Barry Lane because he was vulnerable. He was fucking 14 years of age when this all came about. He was basically like brainwashed into this relationship. And you know what? He was probably looking for some kind of connection that he'd never had with his mum and dad.

41:22 He'd never felt like he belonged anywhere. And Barry Lane obviously made him feel something that he'd never felt before. I. Think he was? Well, he was kidnapped. Well, he was absolutely kidnapped. Absolutely. Like, yeah, he was probably what do you call it when you look for your the kidnapper as a as a friend almost. Like what's that called? Stockholm Syndrome syndrome? Yeah, A. 100% Stockholm syndrome. Like, yeah, yeah, no, he thought that Barry Lane was someone. He was, you know, in that model, that mode of like a parent figure that he was having a sexual relationship with.

41:56 And I mean, how much to, I mean, oh, well, that would fuck someone up. Oh, no end, no end. And clearly did. Like, absolutely. I find it really bizarre that Bunting sort of befriended them though, because Bunting hated gay people, hated homosexuals, yes, hated pedophiles. And Barry Lane was a fucking pedophile. He was fucking a 14 year. Old where Wagner and Bunting sort of got on this page of like this. Barry Lane has done this to you. You you're, you know, like that. You've been, you've been sexually assaulted.

42:27 You're not gay. So because but what I but I mean, it's it's widely known, though, that at at this point, yeah, Bunting has accepted Barry Lane just for who he. Is Oh yeah. At that point I think, well, he was, he's, he says that he brought, he was brought him in because Barry Lane knew who, who all the other paedophiles were. Yeah. And could give him that information. Yeah, yeah. And he was kind of informing on all the other paedophiles and homosexuals in the area. Yeah, who Bunting wanted to get.

42:56 Yeah, And so and the way like sort of bunting really infiltrated Len Wagner was that, and I find this so fucked up. So Bunting was would have Wagner come over to help him learn how to read and write. Yeah. And he would do lessons with him. And I mean, Can you imagine like this person, like who's LED this kind of life with Bunt with Barry Lane, then all of a sudden having this friend who wants to teach you and be, you know, and. And Bunting was that. Yeah, he was charismatic, he was engaging. He he really manipulated people in the way that spoke to them the most.

43:31 And Wagner was craving that it. Was all the while he's teaching him to read and write, which is something, you know, like he life skill that he'd never been taught before and needed in life to make any, you know, move in life in general to, you know, move away from Barry Lane. Yeah. While while he's doing this, Bunting is indoctrinating him in this all this, you know, spouting all these things around, you know, pedophiles and gays that that Barry Lane couldn't separate the two. If you were gay, you were a pedophile in his mind and and.

44:01 We by no means no means no no means link the two. He believed he called females that pedophiles. He called them tooth fairies. Yeah, he'd had these very warped ideas around what being gay was and immediately, just yet that you were a pedophile. So he hated pedophiles, gays and drugs. There were these three things that were absolute, you know, God awful things. And you couldn't be either one of those a drug addict, a pedophile or gay. Couldn't be worse. Couldn't be worse. Humans, yeah. So at this point Bunting is using lanes knowledge of local people to identify the pedophiles in the area and they created what they called the wall of the spider wall spiders.

44:51 Yeah, the. Spider wall. And this was it literally looked like an F, you know, one of those like FBI walls. And it's got like pictures of people and their names and addresses and they've got strings attached to like see who's perpetrated on to and who's connected to who. And I mean, again, that shows a level of organization and intelligence on his behalf to be able to do that. But then he was for the people he had phone numbers for, Bunting would then call them, abuse them over the phone, threaten them.

45:22 For the people that he had addresses for, he'd drive by and he'd like throw rotting meat at their houses. He'd actually spray paint and, like, tag their homes with like, pedophile or other, you know, you know, just other things, you know, other awful things. He'd like spray paint their homes with that. Yeah. And so he really, I guess, used Lane's knowledge in that, in that respect. Mm Hmm. Craziness. Oh, God. Just terrible. Horrific. Yeah. The next Are we up to Mark Hayden now, do you reckon? Yeah, we'll jump to him.

45:58 Yeah. Yeah, so Mark Hayden was born on the 4th of December in 1958. He also met Bunting at a metalworking slash welding course. So I don't know if it was, I don't think it was the same one that he'd done when he met his wife. No, I think it was in A at a different time. Yeah. So I mean, how many metalworking and welding courses can one man do? But anyway, here we go. Really great way to, you know, find your little cult lead that followers. Yeah, and that's exactly, exactly what he found in Hayden, wasn't it?

46:27 Yeah, he, Hayden developed an absolute admiration for Bunting, thought the light shone out of him and couldn't believe he'd met somebody so amazing. And so just like with his head screwed on and like he was just like everything he said, he was so right. He was on the money about everything. And. And he really drank the Kool-aid. Big time. Yeah, Yeah. So the four of them became really close. I'm talking now about Bunting, Wagner, Lane and Hayden. So we've got the four of them. None of them have gainful employment, so they would spend all day sitting around Bunting's house slagging off in what they called, in their terms, gays and pedos.

47:12 And they just would would like really riling each other up. Can you imagine what that environment must have been? These four grown men just getting together every day. Well, they did. They would just sit around the kitchen table and have these, you know, sessions, Yeah, where they would speak this shit. Oh.

47:35 Gross, Mark Hayden. Just real quick because we we will get to this in next week's episode, but Mark Hayden wasn't the sharpest tool in the shed. No, he was really low intelligence. Yeah, and he actually did some really silly things. Most notably, though, he was the one who rented the bank in the the old disused bank in Snowtown. He used his real name. Yeah. Yeah, well, yeah. Yeah. He was not a sharp tool. So his wife was Elizabeth Hayden Hayden. Yeah. There's a couple of Elizabeths in this story, so yeah.

48:13 It's and and not not dissimilar surnames too. It's. Hard to keep track when you. I actually had to go back and forth, Go hang on. Wait, wait, wait, wait. Yeah. Which one's which again? Which one's which? Yes, Yeah, yeah, yeah. Look, I don't have as much on Mark Hayden, but I'm fairly certain that I don't know what his childhood was is exactly. I don't know if you've got any more on that, but no, I don't. I mean, I can't imagine it being much better than the others in this story. He, as I said, the most I knew of of him in terms of prior to this was his low intelligence.

48:44 Yeah, because there's a lot of stuff on him that's been suppressed in the court documents. Yeah. So it was a bit, it's a bit harder to find out information about him. Yeah, that is. And that is well, yeah, we can get to where that is next week because, yeah, there's there's reasons for that. Yeah. Next on my list, I've got Jamie Vlasakis. Yeah, I'd want to hear your opinion on all on him. I am. So if you watch the Snowtown movie that we that we were discussing earlier, he is sort of things the the movie really sort of focuses on things from his perspective.

49:16 Yeah. And so, well, I'm, I'm really curious to see what you think too, because I'd actually already started my research into this before I watched the movie. And the movie did change my perspective a little bit, OK, because I actually developed and I think the movie wanted this, but I did develop a little more. I don't know if sympathy is the right word, but maybe more. I don't, I don't even know what the right word is, but it gave me more context for him and why he did the things he did. And I know we've discussed the past of these other perpetrators as well, but he but Jamie Vlasakis was so young and he was so influenced and he had no hope in life.

50:06 Like, it's like he was born predestined for this to be his life. And so I can't imagine how he could have gotten himself out of it and the way he just further became. And again, this is like that cult shit we're talking about. Yeah. With Bunting, Vlasakis kind of had no choice but to go with it because otherwise he would have ended up in the barrel. Well, this is the thing. I mean, let's just put into context who Jamie is. Yeah. So his mother is named Elizabeth Harvey. Let's like clearly say there's there's Hayden that is married to Mark Hayden, but then there is Elizabeth Harvey, who is not married to Mark Hayden.

50:48 No.

50:50 So yeah, Elizabeth Harvey had a number of different partners and she had a number of children, two different fathers. Yep, he had three sons. Jamie Vlasakis was her second child. Yep. Oh, no, no, no, no, no. Sorry. So there's. Oh, you might. No, there's because there's three boys. He she had two Vlasakis, but prior to that she had Troy, OH. Yeah. Yeah. To another father, yeah. Then there's a stepbrother as well in the family who we'll get to as well. Yep. So there's a number of children that are linked to her within this story.

51:27 And when Elizabeth Harvey met Bunting, so she lived in the same sort of St. basically. And what was happening was that her children, she had a partner at the time who was sexually assaulting her children. Barry Lane living down the road, was watching this go on. And he weirdly enough, decided to go to Elizabeth Harvey to well, basically, I think what basically what happened was he was like, oh, one piece of this action on these children. So he went in to tell Elizabeth Harvey, Hey, do you know that your partner, he's he's sexually assaulting your children thought, you know, as if like he's some sort of king of coming in and saving the day.

52:06 But that basically made her go, oh, this is someone I can trust because he's telling me about what's going on with this other bloke that allowed Barry Lane access to her children.

52:17 So then Bunting and Wagner rock up on her doorstep to go, hey, Barry Lane is also doing this to your children. So they are then. Then she's basically because by this stage she's in a mental state of absolute wreck. Like she was legit actually having full blown split personality situation stuff. Apparently she would get in a bath and just yelled at her name was Laura and stuff like that. Like she was not in a good way at all. And look to be in a situation where you're living in that kind of an environment and not knowing how to get your children to not be sexually assaulted by your neighbors, etcetera.

52:57 I can't even. And she so she couldn't cope with all this. She was a drug user, all these sorts of things, Bunting and Hayden, sorry, Bunting and Wagner have rocked up to her house and sort of became these gurus to her of like saving the day going. This is shit. These pedophiles all live in our neighborhood. We need to. And so she really became glued to this situation. James, James being her son, living in the same, under the same roof as all this talk happening. And he's, I'm he's very young. It was like, I think he was 13 at that point.

53:34 I think he was 12 when they met, but I think 13 by the time all of the discoveries in terms of the sexual assaults came to the fore. Yeah, yeah. So he's young that he's then. I mean, he's already had a shit show of a childhood. His his father, James's father was very abusive sexually assaulting him, him and his half brother Troy and his other brother as well. Well, I think at least one of his other brothers. I thought it was. Both of them could be, it might not be. Well, no, they were all living in the house, so I think it was all of the boys.

54:09 His the his so James's father who was the father of the three boys he could have been sexually assaulting. Definitely like all three of them, but also then the 4th being the older half brother Troy. So his his name was Troy. You'd so. Different father. Different father. Yeah. So I mean, and then Troy then started to also sexually assault James. So it became this. That's what life was. It's absolutely awful. He had. So up to the age of 1213 and meeting Bunting, he had already, James had already lived a horrific childhood.

54:44 I believe it already at 13, definitely 14. He was using heroin. He was 13. He was starting to spiral into that sort of that cycle of addiction, yeah. Which bunting was so anti any drug use? Yeah, yeah. So Lasarcus's biological father died when Lasarcus was 10 years of age. Do you know how he died? Yes. How did he die? So for Sarcus's father, he died of a heart attack on the kitchen floor, right in front of James. He watched him die. Yep. Yep, absolutely. I mean, for any kid to, no matter what they thought your father's done to you, there's an innate, you know, natural thing where it's your father.

55:30 See that? And to watch a person die in front of you would be, yeah, that is also traumatizing. And I think, I think the heart attack was born of just a whole cocktail of drugs that I think he was 42. Yeah, he was 42 when he died. Yep, Yep, Yep. So, Oh my God, it's just unfathomable what these poor boys have. The environment in which they've grown up. Yes. When, When Lasarcus. So when Jamie Lasarcus met Bunting, Bunting was this. He didn't take drugs. He was, you know, this upstanding man who'd come in to save the day.

56:06 And he was, you know, he was basically making the people who'd assaulted Lasarcus and his mum made it, made them pay for it like he was, he was a real father like figure. And I think Lasagas really, really bonded with him very, very quickly because it was the first time in his life that someone had stood up for him and someone had well to, to Jamie's at Jamie's perspective had actually, you know, wanted to do right by him. You know, he was fighting the good fight on his behalf. Yeah, yeah. He really?

56:42 I think Lasakas really worshipped Bunting. I think he, it would have been and so beyond confusing for him in that knowing because I mean, yeah, at 1314 he knows what's right and wrong, yeah, but what's happened to him is so fucking wrong. And then, yeah. So Elizabeth Harvey and Bunting eventually started a relationship. Yeah. And Bunting actually just kicked his wife out one day. Apparently, he just came home and he's like, yeah, I don't want you anymore. Like, you can just fuck off. Yeah. And look, where did she go?

57:19 What happened to her? Like, seriously? But Elizabeth just moved straight in. Yeah. And moved in together. Should also say Bunting has a number of children from different to different women that he has had no no contact with. Nothing at all thankfully. But I mean that's a bit he weirdly enough though. Like you look at Jamie, who he, he literally treated him like a son. Yes, and and he was his father figure, but yeah, what, what, what, what was his motivation for being a father figure to him, but not to his own actual children?

57:51 It has to be, to me, the manipulation he had and what he thought he could use Jamie for. Absolutely. Because I think, you know, somewhere deep down, Bunting obviously knew that the things that he was doing was wasn't right. He didn't want to get his own biological children involved in any of that mess. He's kind of like left them to the side. I don't think he had any care for them whatsoever. I think I have second thought. Like, but but he's then indoctrinated this this boy who is looking up to him like a dad.

58:20 Yeah, and actually made him. I think he just saw saw him as being going right. He's a little protege. Yeah. I'll create another one of me. Yeah, and that's like, that's exactly what he did, Yeah. Yeah. What's your take on Vlasakis? I feel really for him. And The thing is, in the same way I in OK, there's a level of me that feels for all these characters in this story. Yeah. And I'd say that because they have all LED horrific childhoods. Yeah. And if, and you can only like this is all an escalation, as we said, this was always going to happen no matter where they lived, like as in whether it was Queensland, NSW, Victoria, Adelaide, that to me is just you're going to find Bunting was going to find his people to do this with no matter what.

59:08 But these environments breed this these behaviors. I agree with that to a certain extent. There are also people who grew up in these environments who've never perpetrated it. Like, you know, once you become an adult, you make choices and you make decisions. I understand that's informed by a lot of the time informed by your past, but you've got it's a bit of a fork in the road type of. A situation Who was stepping in with any of this to support? Anything. No one was. And as you've said as well, there were no social supports out there.

59:37 And it's not like there were, you know, government agencies engaging with people in these communities. There was no help where. Were the police at points, you know, like as in? I. Agreed. Like I just kind of go like they weren't even known in known enough to police for them to kind of go, oh, this could be a could be a bunting thing. Yeah, because I mean, let's just start with here. I mean, we'll get way more into this next week, but the fact is they weren't on anyone's radar. There were two bodies that were found well before anyone was on to.

1:00:09 To Bunting and what was going years and years and years. So there was no connection of this. But you know, we talked about the fact that there was phone calls being made by Bunting like he escalated his behaviors to to murder even Yeah, there was no cop rocking around going. We know what's you making these phone calls, mate? Like yeah, you know Yep. They were left to their own devices out in this community, to be honest, of like, almost like, you know, to me, it was almost like this. Yeah, go ahead, kill each other, whatever.

1:00:36 Like, we don't really care. See how you go, I think because yeah. And then I just think when you get down to it and to the level of Jamie with how young he was and the stuff that he was exposed to, like I mean, there was what the older people in this were exposed to. He was then there's another escalation of what he was exposed to Jamie that I think that that's where my I step into the point of like I feel way more for him than I do the others. And but also the fact of that at 19 he was caught up like as in that's when he was convicted.

1:01:12 Mm hmm. To me there's a chance of rehabilitation, whereas those that are 40 plus going being convicted, I don't see any chance for them being rehabilitated. Fully agree with that. Yeah, I fully agree with that because So that I think the time in their lives when this happened is critical. Yeah. So as you said, Vlasakis was still a teenager when this was all happening, and he he basically had no choice but to jump on this bandwagon. Yeah, bunting created the bandwagon. Yeah, Bunting didn't have to start out this.

1:01:47 You're never going to save him. No, no. But but he also, he didn't have to start this off. It's not like he'd been part of something like this, which then led him to create his own version of it. Yeah, you know, but Velosakis actually had no choice but to engage with this because otherwise he, I can guarantee he would have been another victim. Yeah, had he stood up to this, he knew enough and they would have gotten rid of him too. Yeah, 100% he was. So he was on the. He was. He would definitely have been at some point.

1:02:19 He would have been on their list like, yeah, yeah. But we can really get into that next week. Yeah. I think this is probably a good place to leave it. Do you have anything else to add on this side of? Things. No, I think I do a million things I'm trying to like put put pause on my brain to go. We'll, we'll shift that to next week. Yeah, all. Right, we, right, we'll, we will leave it there. Yeah. So next week, TuneIn, where next week, it's definitely just getting into the crimes and the victims in particular and and how it all fit together.

1:02:52 If you think we've said enough now, wait till next week. Crazy, crazy, crazy. Yeah. All right. Thank you very much, Crime Besties. We will see you for Part 2 of Snowtown next week. Stay here is crime besties. Bye bye.