Episode 33 - Charles Manson

0:15 Welcome back to Crime Besties to episode 33. Can't believe it. I know we say this every week and it must be so annoying for everyone to listen to, but well first of all I feel like when we get to the end of a very research heavy week, patting myself on the back a bit. Yeah, it's kind of like finally Friday's here, I can get this stuff out. Yeah. And we can talk. Yeah, yeah. We can actually, like, have open conversation about it all because, yeah, it's this one was a heavy week. We're talking about Charles Manson and the Manson Family today.

0:49 But I feel as though for me, this week has been, well, there's just so much. Yes, where and where to start? And where to start and how deep to go into things. So I I bet we've got different stuff. So that's exciting. I'm hoping so. I reckon really for sure. Yeah, yeah. I think we'll both bring different things, yes. How's your week been? Yeah, good. Oh, my God, Getting back in the swing. Things has been rough. Yeah, this week's really hit me. I think I was saying this morning like I've, you know, worked a full week and the kids have been back at all their sport and everything.

1:22 Everything's back. And and then this lingering of like that, there's more to come that's coming back, yeah. In. Terms of sports and things for the filling up the week that it's like I'm really tired. I'm really tired. I'm I'm feeling like this weekend's I'm just need to chill. Yeah. And recover. Yeah. But I really can't because it's just, you know, go, go, go. There's so much to do. Yeah, there's always so much to do. And I, I think one of the mums from our youngest kids basketball team posted a meme, I think it was on Facebook or something the other day.

1:52 And she was like, just when you, you think you're gonna get your weekends back because your kids might start sleeping in a little bit more, bam, there comes, you know, junior sport. And I'm like, oh, yeah. Oh. That's exactly. My kids are like so tired at the moment. Like I have to wake them up at the moment in the morning for school and like, I'm like, oh, great, hit the weekend and we can, you know, just chill in the morning and have a bit of a quieter weekend. Oh no, 8:00 AM basketball game. Bang.

2:13 Thanks for that. Yeah, yeah, it's. So we've got that again this weekend. I think going back to school is a bit of a double edged sword. I love routine. I think the most kids love routine. You know that that really works well for most people, Yes. But then you've also then got, on the other hand, you've got lunch boxes every day, not having those lovely slow mornings that you normally get in, you know, in a school week and sorry, in a school holiday week. And yeah, yeah, that's just so much. I feel like there's just so much to do all the time.

2:47 Like yesterday, drop kids off, go to work, pick kids up. Then we had to go and get basketball shoes because I was I was that mother. And. I I can almost like, yeah, I did the same thing. I didn't really. I kept saying to my kids, you know, we don't, let's not do school shoes to go back to school with. I reckon you can hold out a bit longer. And because we've just done new basketball boots, you know, and everything. I was like, school shoes can just hold out one little bit longer. And I picked up Mason's last night after you saying that about Ollie's shoes.

3:15 And yeah, his is like at the back of his shoe. It's like down to like the innard. Like. OK, so we're going to get school shoes. Yeah, mine was basketball shoes for Ollie. His feet, his toes were like curled into the into the tops of his shoes. And the only time I had to go between yesterday when I oh, Wednesday night when I discovered this issue and. Surprised he didn't say anything, that I was like, you know, my toes are squished. And he did. Ohh I get. I was like, I'm sure they what? Shush you What?

3:47 What would you know? And yeah, so the only time I had to go was last night and it was just crazy. It was just mental. And then, yeah, as you said, by the time you go to bed, like you're just exhausted. Totally. Anyway, you're trying to. I think once we're in searching. Oh, yeah, yeah. I think once we're in the in the thick of it and things are sort of on the go. It's just the getting back into it all. Like I thrive on routine. Like I get to the end of like my six week holiday and go like, you know, yeah, bring on the routine.

4:15 I really need it because I feel like you can just get a little bit. I find I I can fit a whole lot more into my day when I'm busy. Yep. Like I get more done when I get on holidays. I find myself doing the whole like, but I've already got 1 something on that day. Like I can't do something like two things. Whereas when I'm back in routine, it's like what what 10 things in a day? Sure, I can fit all the worries. Yeah, but it's just getting. I've got a break. Between 11:15 and 11:45. Sure, slot that.

4:42 Is I can do that for sure, yeah, yeah. So I and I do thrive in that kind of environment, but it's just, yeah, it's switching back to it that you kind of go. OK. It just takes you a bit to get used to it again, I think. Yeah. Yeah, but we'll get there. We'll get. All good. It's. Starting the kids with you, that's the hardest bit, I think. Really. Yeah, 'cause they're, oh God, my 2 are so tired at the end of the day. And it's that overtiredness where, you know, they, they, they equally wanna stay up later.

5:09 They're trying to push for later bed times, which I'm holding out on. Absolutely. There's no way we're pushing those out. So then they get grumpier that I'm being such a bitch that I'm not letting them have like a late night, like, you know, but they, but it's, it's, it's, you know, exacerbated by this whole fact of like that they're already overtired at 6:00 PM, like asking me for a late night that they're crying about it and, you know. You're like, oh, This is why I can't give you a late night.

5:33 Yeah, you're really not prepared to be able to have a late night. They'll they'll get into the swing of it as well, because six weeks of not doing much, you know, yeah, it's just takes some time. And then also, I think switching a little brains on for school for six hours a day, that's exhausting in and of itself. Totally, totally different use of brain activity than we do on the holidays, for sure. Yeah, yeah. New teachers, new classroom, you know, structure with different kids. It's full on. Yeah, but anyway, that's all part of the rich tapestry that is life.

6:02 Yeah. So no, it's good. I'm. I'm really happy to be back in routine and and all of that sort of jazz. Anything else been going on? Oh no. No, same. I I feel like we always talk about the same things, but I mean that that our weeks are our weeks. That's just the way the way it is, so. You can't fit anymore in, can we? Well, it is. Look, I'll, I'll, I will give a bit of a shout out. It's producer Pete's birthday today. Happy birthday Pete. Happy birthday. So I actually sent him off to lunch with his dad because I was like, sorry, we've got a podcast to record.

6:38 Too bad, but I had a weekend. Yeah, and I'm taking her out for a nice dinner tomorrow night. So birthday, weekend, that's it. You know, spread it out. He told me last night, though, that he feels as though the week preceding and the week following a. Birthday. Oh, Valentine's Day is in there. You 2 are gonna have your love fest, aren't you for? Oh, totally, 'cause we're really super into that, actually. Do you wanna know the most romantic thing that Peter has ever done for me? This. Did you take it to Star Wars?

7:04 Star Wars or something? Did he? Oh God, no, I've never. Seen. No, I know. Shocked. No. So I I feel like it might have been the first Valentine's Day after we bought this house. Oh yeah. So we had didn't have kids yet. I don't think we were married yet. And I went to boot camp in the morning and I came home and he had made me poached eggs on toast with bacon, but he'd cut the bacon into love. Heart shapes what I know how. Romance. Is that romance? Pete. Yeah. Oh, that's so cute. I don't think he's ever done anything romantic since actually.

7:41 Not the way Valentine's E type people like we normally don't even. Well, you love. It. Oh no. But yeah, that's so romance. Yeah. Oh, that's really cute, Pete. Yeah, yeah, heart-shaped bacon. How can you go wrong? So, so simple, but so effective. I still remember it, however many years later. Because he's never done one again since. Oh, you can remember that. No, no, no that. Was a a single day inspiration and that's that's passed him by now. Oh wow, it's the most romantic thing someone's ever done for you.

8:12 Oh, thought you were an electric toothbrush from four years. Yeah, yeah. Probably. How's the romance on that? Oh. The romance is so dead. Yeah, yeah. I don't know. Well, you can't really talk bacon. Heart-shaped bacon, so it's probably not even worth mentioning anything else. I mean, in my love language is definitely certainly not like that sort of stuff like Valentine. No, I it's a big. Thing, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. What is your love language? This is like a thing that people talk about these days.

8:47 Yeah, do you know what? I feel like my love language changes all the time. OK sometimes I'm I need affection and then other times I'm like fuck off don't come near me. Don't touch me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I feel like it's I Yep, it's equally it's up and down as my moods. OK, that's fair. Yeah, I think for me it's active service, both giving and receiving. Like I like doing things for people. Yeah, and I like it when people think about me to do something for me. Like I really appreciate that the the fact that thoughts gone into it and.

9:20 Yeah, when you put it as acts of service, I like, I think that that's probably a a love language. I like 'cause like, I don't like giving, I don't like getting gifts necessarily because someone gives a shit like, you know, IE electric toothbrushes. But when it's really thought about and it doesn't necessarily need to be one that's cost anything, it can be doing something that's just genuinely something that someone knows there's something about you and that's what you would want like. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

9:46 Agreed. Agreed. It's not about the thing, no. No, no, not. Yeah, agree. Yeah. Yeah, with you on that. Well, there you go, I. Have to look into it. I've actually haven't done any of that. You know you can do like quizzes on it and. Maybe we should do one and come back next week and let's see what it comes out as. I'm making notes. Love language? Actually, we better write that in our in our books for next week, otherwise we'll forget to do it. Yep, totes.

10:10 All right, I'll, I'll do a do a quiz. What? We used to get them out of Cosmopolitan. Now where do we get them from? Google. Google. All right, cool. Tiktok Speaking of Tiktok, though, our Tiktok's been blowing up Yeah, it's been going really well. So if you're not, if you haven't joined us over there, please do Oh, funny story. So you know how last week's. So we're recording this a couple of weeks in advance, but last week the Carol Baskin episode came out and my kids are always like, oh, what episode's coming out today.

10:43 And I, I, I was like, Oh, it's Carol Baskin. I don't know if you know, like the Tiger King And they're like, oh, no, no, go Carol Baskin. And then I'm like, oh, there's actually a song about it. And I brought up the Carol Baskin song and Oliver's like, is that a TikTok? And I'm like, yes. And he goes, know this star, I don't know. And, and he's like, can we do it? And I was like, Oh yeah, right, fine, we'll do it. There's no way I'm posting it like. It is embarrassed. Bring it up. It's got to get posted.

11:11 It's embarrassing, but it was actually a bit of fun, like doing the dance and learning, you know? Carol Bayer skin killed her husband whacked in. It was in my head that entire week researching. People are going to be seeing that now all day after having listened to this. Thank you. It's yeah. You'll thank us later, yeah? Anyway, yeah, join us over on TikTok. You never know what we're going to post. Let's just stick to the videos from our podcast, yeah? Hey, Fair. Fair. Fair, fair. Oh, God. All right.

11:42 Should we get into today's episode? Yeah. I think we might be avoiding it. Are we, I'm, I'm feeling a bit like, as I think we alluded to at the start of this, this is a massive yeah. A There is so much information out there and depending on where we went for information, right? This is true for me. I'm sure it was for you too. You could get totally different takes on the way things happened and different perspectives. There's a few conspiracy theories attached to various things of it, and you can get down some serious rabbit holes.

12:13 Yeah, so if you wanna do that, there are so many things out there. There's long form short podcast, short form podcasts. There's so many different like documentaries and the. List of documentaries on this and and just and even like movies that or shows that have taken, you know, some sort of like inspiration from this story. Is like Once Upon a time in Hollywood, like, you know, this the latest, I think it's the latest Quentin Tarantino movie even depicts this like it's it's in popular culture. Oh yeah.

12:44 And so therefore can obviously be depicted in, however, in whatever light people sort of wanna present it as I tried to be really quite factual when I was when I was researching it. So we're doing our best that. But as I said, there's so much information out there if you want to know anything. Yeah, and you do need to be a little bit careful because of that fact. Like things can get a bit blown out of proportion on certain parts of it, I think. And like and, and not be factual. So yeah, Yeah. But there's definitely tons of factual stuff out there too.

13:14 Yeah. Yeah. But it's he's this is, yeah. Crazy. This is the one where I was like every time I'd be listening to something or whatever, I was reading something about this, you know, I wasn't leaving it lying around. I leave the kids here, any of these. When I was doing stuff I was like this is one that I'm Nope, Nope, Nope. And even his rantings and stuff like he's. Oh yeah, he's an. Interesting character. Yeah. Anyway, Charles Manson was born on the 12th of November in 1934 in Cincinnati, OH. We were just talking before we started recording.

13:45 There are some resources out there that state that he was born on the 11th of the 11th and that that was like some kind of devil's number or something. But from all the more reputable sources that I looked into, date of birth, 12th of November. Sorry it doesn't fit your little you know. Yeah, it doesn't tick that box. Doesn't. Tick the box. Everything else be up after that point in my stars though. Pretty much. Pretty much so. Charles was born to Kathleen Maddox, who was only 15 years old when he was born.

14:15 Yeah, and she was working as a prostitute at the time. Yeah, yeah, So sad. She hadn't had the best of upbringings herself. I think she was, she was living like on the streets, wasn't she is a 15 or well, 1415 year old, Yes. And obviously, you know, turning tricks to yeah, to make make ends meet and to sort of live her life. Yeah, the man and so her, the biological father of Manson or Maddox at the time when he was born, he was even not named on the birth certificate at the time, but later on was that she took a man to court to verify that he was the father and he was even he was nine years older than her.

14:57 Yeah, so he was 23 at the time of the birth. So this guy, so Manson's real father. His name is Colonel Scott. And Colonel, as in like Colonel was his name. Like, as in the honorific Colonel is his actual given name. Yeah, but he would then use that as a way of being like, oh, I'm a Colonel in the Army and oh shit, I've knocked up a 15 year old, I'm gonna fuck off 'cause I'm a Colonel. He. Told her at the time he goes, I'm, I'm a Colonel. I've gotta go out now. Oh yeah, you're pregnant. I'll support you.

15:24 But I've been called out to. I've gotta go. You know, I'm posted somewhere. And it wasn't till quite a few months later that she realized, yeah, he's not coming back and he's not in the Army. No, he's not a Colonel. His name is Colonel. Yeah. Like what a hell. What a shit. I mean, she's 15 years old, of course she's going to believe what this older man's telling her. Yeah, but he mad at mum. Charles Manson never met his father. Like, yeah. She so Kathleen was from a devout Christian family. They were very odd in their practice of their religion, from what I can gather, and but like very extreme, which is why when Kathleen was having issues, she's left home and turned to prostitution to support herself as a young girl.

16:09 But when she fell pregnant, she decided to go back home and seek the support of her mum. And her mum basically said to her, well, like this is just unacceptable. You're, you know, you're young, you're pregnant, you're unwed. You've got to sort that out or I'm sending you away. And so Kathleen decided that the lesser of those evils was to actually find a man to marry before the baby was born. And she met a man named William Manson. He was 25 years old when they got married. And Kathleen was still 15.

16:42 She was, I think she was 20 weeks pregnant when they got married. So they must have met. Yep. And married very, very quickly. I married in the August and he was born in the November. Yeah. So they were really married quick. Yeah. And he was 25 to her fifteen. Oh, yuck. Yuck. And he was gross. Like, gross, gross. Look up. You can look up photos of him. He even looks like creepy. Oh, yeah. He was named as as Charles's birth father on the birth certificate because they were married, obviously. Yeah.

17:12 Hence the fact that Charles Charles's surname is Manson. Yeah. They were divorced a few years later. And. Did you read what he named as the divorce? The reason for the divorce? Oh, was it? I think I did. Go tell me so. They divorced in 1937, right? So they weren't married for long. And Manson the as in her husband, he alleged gross neglect of duty as the reason for divorce? What the fuck? What was she not? Putting out like, I mean, clearly that cannot be a reason for divorce. But maybe in 1937 that was a.

17:53 Reason, I dare say it was, yeah, that you weren't fulfilling your 40s as a wife. That is so gross, isn't? That disgusting. That is so gross. Yeah, but Kathleen actually took him to court for child support. Yeah. Because obviously, I mean, he was named on the birth certificate. Yeah. But paternity testing then proved that he wasn't a biological father. And then Kathleen actually had no way of seeking out Colonel or where three years or what he was doing. So she was now left with what? What was Charles at that time, like 1 1/2, two years old?

18:27 Yeah. Bringing up this little boy on her own. According to Charles Manson, his mother was neglectful and abusive. He tells a story of when he was, I think he was eight years of age. And his mum was, I think she was again, working as a prostitute. I think she had a bar job. But then was also. I'm not quite sure where that all kind of tied in, but she offered a patron. Yeah, a jug of beer. Like she wanted to take a jug of beer in exchange for them taking Charles as a as an 8 year old boy. Yeah, like essentially adopting him for a jug of beer or selling him he.

19:08 Was even younger than that. I think it was a baby. I think he was like a baby, a toddler at that point. Oh, right. Yeah. Oh my God. Yeah, because it actually the transaction took place. Yeah. She took the beer and the other person took the baby. Took. Yeah, Charles and her brother had to go and get him back. Yeah, yeah. Well, I know, I know that's what happened, but I thought he was a bit older than. That maybe. I've got. I mean, I might be. Wrong either way, no matter how old he was. What the fuck?

19:33 Yeah, but yeah, I mean, she also went to prison when Charlie was like really young. He was five. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he went. Her brother, her and her brother were doing it together like they were on robberies etcetera together and they were both arrested and and sent to prison. Sorry, you know, he's lived a, you know, really a young early childhood. Did not stop there by any means. Like he, she, she didn't want him. And I mean, she's 15 when she had him. She's a child herself, you know, you can't really hold that a whole lot against her, I guess.

20:05 But at the same time, yeah, he's not had the upbringing that of any typical childhood. He's had to fend for him. He's for himself pretty much from the get go. Yeah. And then because. She's, she didn't, she couldn't handle him. And at one stage he was, he was put into a home for boys and he was being abused etcetera there. And he, he couldn't, he didn't want to be this. He'd run away and he ran away like 18 times from this place. And on one occasion, which was close around Christmas time, he he ran home and went to his mother and she just took him straight back.

20:40 Yeah, some really horrible things happened. So when she got out of prison, she actually met her new husband and married him fairly quickly. I think they actually met in prison or her brother was with him in this guy in prison. So not a good sort. No, no. But he didn't take to Charles at all, didn't want him around, didn't want anything to do with there's. Accusations that he's abusing him sexually, physically. Emotionally, yeah. So that's when they sent him to this reform school. He held up a shop at gunpoint, and he was sent to a juvenile prison.

21:18 In that prison, he was raped routinely. So much so that in an interview that I was listening to with him, he basically said, yeah, it was just an everyday thing. Like it wasn't. He didn't even look at it as a trauma because it was just something that happened every day and he just sort of went with it. But same on the flip side, like I think it was about a month or so before he was about to be released from there. He was caught raping a boy and also with a, with a razor to the boys throat. Yeah.

21:45 Like, so, yeah, he was. He, you know, he'd been sort of groomed to the point where he was in, you know, also perpetrating these, these crimes against other people. That's it. So after that event, he was sent to, like, a maximum security juvenile prison. Yeah. And apparently, like, literally the worst of the worst kids go to this prison. And so now he's sort of surrounding himself with even worse people and worse influences potentially. He was basically in and out of juvie for like most of his, well, most of his younger years.

22:25 The biggest thing for that was that the crimes that he would commit when he was out, he would, they'd end up being federal crimes rather than just state, because what he'd do is he'd steal a car, right? But instead of just stealing a car, he'd drive it over state lines. So then it would become a federal, federal crime. And therefore he would get even longer sentences and be sent back in to these reform schools to begin with. And, you know, and juvenile detention centers, but then then prison later on once he was old enough.

22:53 And so he would do quite lengthy stints as well. And then eventually he'd get to the point where he'd get parole, but he would do something in in jail right before his parole date would be like before he would be up for parole. And so then he'd go to the parole hearing and they'd be like, you're not getting out. You've just done this like so he wasn't helping himself get out. Either, but that says a lot to me. You know, when I was looking at this, I was like, OK, this is one of those instances where I'm like, when somebody tells you who they are, believe them.

23:24 Yeah, he is telling you that he's a bad person. And maybe this is his way of being. Like, I don't want to get out because I know when he was released prior to, you know, the crimes that he's most known for. Yes. He actually begged not to be released from prison. So this is in 1967. Yeah, he begged the parole board, parole board to keep him in prison. Yeah, he actually said it, that prison is his home and he requested that he stayed. He had lived something like 60% of his life by that point. 32 at that age, yeah, yeah, yeah.

24:01 60% of his life in prison. So this is what he knew. Yeah. And he obviously didn't feel comfortable going out into the real world. No, I'm sure they weren't the support, You know, these days, prisoners, if we're looking to reform, then there's support for them in terms of like housing and all of that kind of stuff. But he was released from prison in 1967. Yeah, with no home, nowhere to go, no money. He, I don't even know that he had. I think he had to wear his prison issued clothes home because he didn't even have any clothes that fit him.

24:33 Yeah, yeah. So he's left to his own devices and the only thing that he could do that day was contact an ex inmate who he was, who he'd befriended when he was in there and asked to sleep on their couch. But then his wife got Jack of it and was after a few days and was like, Nah, fuck off. He's not staying here anymore. Yeah, yeah, he's he's not staying here anymore. No. And So what? He's then left homeless, basically. Well, he was, he was left homeless. And yeah, what's the person to do with no support?

25:04 No, because I mean in jail he sort of found his people. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. He. He got into religion, he got into Scientology particularly. He was very, very much learning the, the offerings of what psychology had and was engrossed in that. And he sort of, you know, he had people listening to him and he's, he's philosophizing on those sorts of things. So he, he was already developing into it. Very incredibly interesting person. Oh, very interesting. Yeah. And very devout in what he was. Yeah, in what he was reading and, and I guess like very devout in his conviction for these philosophies and all of these things.

25:51 So he'd basically taken parts of science, mostly from Scientology, but he had some Christianity thrown in there. He and he started developing his own like. Yeah, belief system. Belief system, yeah, yeah. And he'd take from each what he liked and leave the bits behind that he didn't. And so that really, I guess, started what we now know, yes, the Manson Family cult, really. Yeah. Well, I mean it was quite early on. It was one of his stints in prison, as in the IT was at one of the schools for boys that he was staying in.

26:31 So pre, pre, pre to prison and things that they did do an aptitude test on him. Yeah. And that determined that he was illiterate. But at the same time, we had an above average IQ of 109. So not, you know, genius status by any means, but certainly an above average IQ. But he was also in already displaying aspects of an A highly aggressive antisocial behaviour. So that was when he was, you know, pre 16, like, yeah, yeah. So there was traits there already of all sorts of things showing through. Yeah, yeah.

27:04 Yeah. I mean, yeah, his whole life really sort of led to where he was, yes.

27:12 Should we start now with sort of more around the cult and how that all came came back up? Yeah. So when he first he gets out of prison in 1967 and from there he well, he was interesting something sort of he fell through the cracks a little bit somehow with his parole actually. And he ended up in San Francisco, which is it was actually a breach of his parole, which I find really interesting. And that's where we get a little bit conspiracy theory ish. Yeah. Because he then with arriving in San Francisco, technically, when he he did do the right thing and he contacted the people he should come to contact to say, you know, like this is where I am and declare that.

27:49 And instead of them going, you've breached your parole, you've crossed into a different, different area than what you're allowed to. They've gone. Oh, yes, sure. No worries. Here you go. This will be your parole officer here in San Francisco and handed him over to a man of by the name of Roger Smith to be his parole officer. Now, this guy was linked with Berkeley University and he was doing involved with another guy named David Smith, I think his name was. Yeah. And he was doing studies on LSD, the use of LSD on patients and how that influenced people and how that could be used to influence people in situations of, well, we're getting into the MK Ultra kind of without that being used as a term.

28:36 But he was certainly, he was included in these studies that this guy was doing as part of his. Parole. Yeah, yeah, I don't. I mean, it wasn't an official condition of his parole, but it was like, well, now that he was under the the care or guidance or whatever of that, what was his name? I've just Roger Smith. Thank you. Smith. Yeah, yeah, he's basically been coerced or forced or I don't even know, but in. Turn put into the hands of someone who's been a previous drug user and also a criminal. Yeah, and you presented with mental free LSD.

29:15 Yeah, and you presented with mental health. Yeah, obviously mental I'll health, I think. It was under the guise of this whole, you know, like we want to study, you know, criminals who are broke coming out, coming into back into society and you know, and study how your, you know, your brain works and how you we can, you know, like, yes, we introduce you to. Chuck you some LSD and see. What happens see what happens to someone in that category which so it it very quickly it was noticed by there was a that one particular comment.

29:44 I want to try and find it where this David Smith actually made a comment around how how he he presented in these studies because it was he was incredible. It was the most abrupt that he had observed in in his entire professional career that it was Manson's ability to use this LSD to his advantage over others. How so? So as in as in with Manson. Taking the LSD So basically in these these studies, there would be Manson and other people taking this LSD and whilst they were then left in this room to then, you know, all trip out together.

30:29 Manson would become very naturally the leader and spout all sorts of his philosophy and all these Scientology and things that he had brought to he was bringing to the table. And these other people would be engrossed in what he would he was he was spouting and be and following him and he was and he was absolutely. So this guy immediately saw this of like what is going on? Yeah. What is this? Yeah, that's really interesting because when he when Manson formed his cult, The Family, Yeah, he. So the people who were in it now have since said that obviously Manson would give them LSD and they'd be tripping, but he would never take it.

31:16 Well, he wouldn't, he would, he would take it, but he would take far less lower doses, right. Yeah. And he, so he was aware like this is the, I guess in these studies he was probably taking an equal amount. Yeah. So he could probably, I guess because he'd had so much, maybe he could also take a bit more, maybe his tolerance. Was higher. But he was no, it was definitely there there there was certain people within the cult like later on commented about how they they trick, they had twig to the fact that when they would do that, because they would plan it, they'd be like, let's all do this trip.

31:45 It would be a thing. But they would notice that he would dose himself lower than everyone else. Right. OK. Yeah, he would take some. Yeah. OK. Yeah. I mean, with some of the absolutely wacky shit he'd come out with, yeah, that surprised me that he was taking something. Yes, yeah, it was, he was taking all sorts of things in the end. Well, there was 1 documentary I was watching where the guy reeled off all the drugs that they were taking. And then he like, you know, and yes, there was marijuana and hashish and and then he was doing acid and all these other things and the list was getting longer and longer and then he goes.

32:17 So yeah, not hard drugs.

32:22 Where's the line? Yeah. Not being a heavy drug taker myself, tell me when it when it graduates. Time. Let me know. Let me know when it flips. Yeah, to the other side. I would have thought it would be a quantity as well, as well as the type, you know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, that's it. And also like the mix, the cocktail, the. Cocktail of it. Come on. Oh God, yeah, 'cause that was the thing that they were talking about the, you know, that, oh, we'd add this to that and that would level this out and.

32:48 Oh, it's real science. Real science to it. Well, it hurts. Well, just a bit of experience probably enables you to to figure that out. Yeah, not only with Scientology. An influence for Charlie The Beatles. Were a. Massive influence for him and in particular their White Album, which he interpreted as a coded message basically for telling a race war. Yeah. He really thought that they were speaking directly to him. Yep. So like, I mean, I guess the LSD certainly had an effect mentally on him as well.

33:22 Yeah, So he, he believed that black people would rise up and basically take over the US white people would have to retreat. And he called this Helter Skelter. Yeah. Which is, you know, there's a The Beatles song by the same name. Yeah. How very dare he. You know how dare he. Ruin The Beatles? Yeah. You know, I think, I think it says something, the fact that when you talk about The Beatles, this isn't the first thing that comes to your mind, is it? No. So thankfully they didn't get, I mean, while their name, you know, while the band comes up a lot when you're doing research for this, thankfully it's not their legacy.

34:01 And it's not was never the intention of their. No, not at all. My God, no. Not the peace loving, you know, beetles. Yeah. 'Cause he also called one of the houses that they're living in at one stage their yellow submarine. Yeah. And he believed even that Song spoke to them about, but it wasn't about the yellow submarine underwater. He actually called their house. It was a yellow house, but it was them being submersed and acting beneath the surface of, you know, under radar basically from like the police and it and all that sort of thing.

34:30 So he he really interpreted everything. The way he wanted to. Yeah, yeah. I was listening to a podcast about this and they were talking about how he called one of their houses the Yellow Submarine. And one of the people in the podcast was like, yeah, it's 'cause the house was yellow. And you can see photos and stuff with it online. And so these were. This was an American podcast and they lived in the yellow submarine House was in California, right? Yeah. And they so. And the other person was like, no way, no, no, he's just called it that.

35:01 There's no way the house was yellow. And they ended up going to the house and it's still yellow. It's. Yeah, I mean like it's, you know, it's a pastely yellow. Yeah, it's a. It's a blue, yeah. It's like a past, yeah, pastel yellow, but it's. Yellow. It is Yellow, yeah. Which, yeah. Oh, God, yeah. All right. So he's forming, you know, he, he's forming this cult. There's people. People who are. Following this word and and a lot of young impression, very young, impressionable women. Yeah, the youngest cult member known was 12 years of age.

35:34 A girl. Yeah, a girl who left home, joined the cult, lived in the house. It was a documentary I watched, which I highly recommend anyone go and watch, was called Mance and the Lost Tapes and what this is actually footage of. And it was footage of a documentary crew who went in just after they had arrested and raided the arrested them for the the murders, which we'll get to. Yeah. So this documentary crew going in there kind of to get the family's perspective of all of this, right? Which this footage was then really put to the side and never used, but there's a lot of footage of them interviewing cult members about what was going on.

36:16 And there was a particular girl and then but then there was also and then 2017, which is when the documentary was actually made, right, which is the year that Manson died. They've interviewed some of the girls, the women from the cult now like now you know, in present time in 2017. And so you watch them on this video, on these, in these clips from 19691970, you know, and then now and their thoughts on things. And one of them was 14 in the video clips, you watched her being interviewed and spoke and she's speaking in these clips.

36:48 And so at 14, she was in this cold and in, you know, and, you know, and when I say that it was highly sexual, you know, and she speaks then about her experience as a, you know, much older woman now, you know, probably what, you know, 70s, like 60s at best, you know, speaking about her experiences. My God, it just blows my mind. But The thing is I was trying to get at was that the experiences of these fourteen 1612 year old girls and how they managed to end up in this cult is that they were very vulnerable.

37:21 They all had these backstories that were so incredibly sad where, you know, mom had rejected them. They'd been kicked out of home for some whatever reason, you know, someone and then someone didn't believe them. You know, there was such tragic stories. And then he manipulated them around that and because he what he offered them was love. Yeah, in that documentary. Oh, yeah. Well, it's so fucked up. Yeah. In that documentary, have you seen one of the girls? I think this was a slightly older girl, but she basically said, like, he has saved my life.

37:57 I don't know what I would do without him. He is my God. Yeah. He is our God. Yeah. And I'm like, so that shows the level of commitment. These women, there were some men, too. Yeah, but mostly women. The men came in like he was able to bring the men in to say go to these women, like I can't service them all. You should help me service them. Like kind of, they all want sex all the time. And, you know, so it was he manipulated then the men into it of like that. Yeah, they would get these and they were beautiful young women.

38:28 Beautiful. Young women. Stunning. Stunning. And they were in that era of free love, one around naked most of the time like and that it was all on for everyone at all times. Yeah. Have you heard about Mary? Do you know about Mary? Yeah. So Mary was, well, she was a vulnerable girl as well. But Manson was looking for somewhere to live after getting out of prison in 1967. And you know, he'd that stayed his welcome with various prison friends and anyone else he could, he could come by. So he decided to go out one night and find somebody who he could then have sex with and stay the night with basically.

39:08 So he's gone to a bar, I think. And he he even he admits this, like he, he is interviewed saying this, that he found a frumpy girl who looked like she was a virgin and went for it. And it worked like this. This young girl, how old was Mary when they met? She was living on her own. I think she was over 18. Yeah. And 18. 19. Yeah, so Charles went home with her that night and basically didn't leave for a very long time. They would. They were sexually active with one another. But then Mary would go off to work during the day, and she would, you know, have to pay the rent and pay the food bills and all of that sort of stuff.

39:57 And Charlie had just have, you know, various girls coming over, having sex with them while she was out. Then it came that she'd come home from work and the girls would still be there. And he somehow convinced her that was OK. Yeah. And she kind of really got rolled into all of this. Yeah. And Mary actually fell pregnant. What year was that? Yeah, so it was 1968 that she gave birth to their their son, Valentine Michael. Valentine Michael, sorry, their son, because at this time there were 18 women living with them, with the, with Mary Bromner and Charles Manson.

40:31 Crazy. And so she's pregnant and giving birth to their child and just blows my mind that that was just their normal. Yeah, that's just what they did. Yeah. Yeah. And the other women in the cult supported Mary through the birth. And I mean, it's sort of a bit bit hippie in nature, I guess, which plays into the time. But yeah, how Mary allowed this? I just, I can't even David Smith claimed so in these, in that whole stuff, because not that Mary Bromner was part of the studies, but he was using what he'd learnt there, obviously and taking it out into the world and his followers.

41:13 And what David Smith claimed about what he was doing was that he was attempting to reprogram people. Yeah. And that they would submit totally to his will through the LSD and unconventional sexual. Practices. Oh, what does that mean? Is this like group, group sex? Yeah, because there was a lot of that going. Oh yeah. Orgies and stuff. But basically what his goal was, was to turn followers into empty vessels that would accept anything that he poured. Yeah. So he just wanted to do whatever he wanted to do them and for them to be OK with it or like going along with it.

41:52 Yeah. So at this point, so the 19671968, he's he, this is how he's working those women over this is and then bringing in the men into these groups as well. Yeah. And yeah, he really, he's done, he did some serious damage to these people's mental health. Yeah. And also physically, some of the women were, I couldn't describe it like there was a. Story of this 14 year old that was in that documentary really got me that she was saying that she had spent time around him and was really feeling, you know, loved by him and enveloped by him.

42:26 And so she and she had this great respect for him and she was a virgin. And so she went to him and asked him to Make Love to her and that she wanted that. And so him instead of, you know, was great age of maturity going to her as a 34 year old man. He then took her and off to a secluded spot, sodomized her, raped her, didn't Make Love to her by any means, did awful things to her and then told her to never ask for that again. She was like it was she was most awful experience that she then yeah, definitely never asked him to do that again for her.

43:06 But also she found herself wanting what she had prior to that moment with him so badly that she just kept trying to find a way back to that original love that she felt for him and that he gave her. He she said that was like the drug was trying to find that what she get what he gave her previously to that that that incident. How could she have? How could she have then gone on to have any kind of constructive or functional relationship with a man? I'm sure she probably unless she got a lot of psychological help and support.

43:38 Yeah, without that, I don't think you could. I think it's, it's just terrific because she then, like she said, had sex with a lot of different men within the the family. And so it became, that's how she just lost respect for herself in all of that, which is awful. Oh. It's just horrible. To have that experience, just disgusting. Poor girl. I just oh. God, there's so much of it. There's so many different stories and. Did you read anywhere like what numbers there were involved in this family at? This point.

44:11 So yeah, 100 people at its peak. So I, I know I when I thought about this, I mean, obviously before researching, I knew bits and pieces, but I certainly didn't know a lot. In my mind, I thought the family was like thousands of people. Yeah, yeah. But it was actually only at at its Max 100, around 100. Yeah, but most of them were underage girls. So in terms of who held the power, I mean, obviously Charlie held the power. He then had his little subbies, these little agents, in particular Tex Watson, who will come up in a minute, who also perpetrated these absolutely heinous and horrific.

44:54 And the way I just describe. It horrible acts on these young women and, you know, all under the guise of oh, but I was being guided by a mess. They called in the free love. Free love. Oh, it's the 60s. I I heard a journalist who covered the Manson family a lot in back in the day interviewed in AI think it was actually in like a 60 minutes episode or something like that. And she actually said the Manson murders and the Manson cult signaled the end of the 60s, like Single Sing signaled the end of free love and all of that, because it was just so horrific that people really changed their attitude towards the that whole philosophy.

45:46 So this was a transformative thing for, well, California, yeah #1 the United states #2 but then the world as a whole, like, things really did start to shift in the early 70s in that respect. So yeah, this was, this was no, no small, you know, no small peanuts by any, by any stretch of the imagination. No, no. So Manson's obviously he's got this cult together and on the 9th of should we get to this now? Just before, just slightly before, I guess we should make the a link in here of like. So there was actually another band that was included in touched into this.

46:28 So in to the 1968 couple of the girls, because what they would do is they go ahead and hitchhike. He would send them out to check to to like bring more people into the cult and when they're in recruiting. Yeah. Because what the other thing we should mention? He was a mad musician. Yeah. I can't believe we actually haven't. Yeah, touched on that, Yeah. He had to play guitar and in jail and thought himself quite the songwriter. And so he what he really wanted, basically his life goal According to him, was that he wanted to become famous in a famous musician and songwriter.

47:01 So he was in, he brought his family from San Francisco down to LA to really try and get into the Hollywood scene and get noticed and get, you know, a producer and start producing his music. So he started, he did very easily make connections and but a lot of it was through the women in the cult. So these two girls had gone out to hitchhike and had been picked up by none other than Dennis Wilson, who was the drummer in The Beach Boys. Now, crazy how this all came about, that he was clearly a really nice guy who didn't know how to say no to people.

47:37 Yeah. So in the these girls have like really worried him and these and they've he's taken them, it sounds. Seedy, but it's not that seedy. No, yeah. It's really weird. But they've gone back to his house and everything, which he's, you know, renting this quite lavish mansion in, you know, in the back in the hills of LA And they've like, they're talking about Charlie and, you know, and he's like, oh, I've got a medium, you know, And the next thing, Charlie arrives and walks up into the house. Well, I think they stayed there for about 6 months.

48:06 Yep. They didn't leave. No, wouldn't leave. Which it got to a point where Dennis Wilson was like, he actually left the house going nut you got to get out. Like this is horrific. So he actually moved out Dennis Wilson and moved into his apartment. He had somewhere else and the lease was out on this house. And then so then they got kicked out and and moved on. But that was the only reason that they had to move from there. They all just arrived and dossed everywhere and free love. Yeah. But in in that meeting with Dennis Wilson, he was getting some connections.

48:40 They The Beatles actually recorded one of his songs which he got no credit for, so which is pretty shit. And wasn't it never released? It was released. It was on Australia. It was released and you can actually go and go and listen to it. So it was called, he called it cease to exist, but The Beatles renamed it. Never learn to love. Never, never learn not to love. OK, I've listened to it. Not great, not one of their best. It's not one that I immediately go now. Oh yeah, that's a Beatles hit. Oh yeah, no, that they call it was on like the the B side.

49:11 You know, OK. Back in the back day, yeah. But yeah, definitely, it's definitely recorded. And you can when, when you when you hear like that, he called it cease to exist. Those words appear in the song like you know, it's it is his song that he wrote apparently in jail. He wrote about 80 songs whilst he was in prison. And so, yeah, they did record it, but he never got any acknowledgement for it. And the producer on that was his Terry Melcher, who Charlie Manson then really was shitty with him. And don't blame being shitty with him.

49:41 Like, I mean, he really did get screwed over by this. I mean, if you're going to use the guy's music, you've got to give him the credit. Absolutely. You know, if he's talented enough to have written the song and and be there, then name him, you know, yeah, even pay him for it, you know. But yeah, so that's that's sort of started a real rivalry there in a grudge that I guess maybe sparked what happened next. Yeah. Maybe I don't know the way that guy, that Manson's brain works, it's hard to know whether this was the motivator or just.

50:12 Yeah, you. Decided to pick that to involve it as well. Well. I think, I think maybe this was a very convenient sort of excuse to incite what he wanted to. Yes. Anyway, he, you can hear, you can see online interviews with Manson and he does ramble a lot. And some of the stuff he says, I'm like, oh, that's actually quite clever and really insightful. And then other shit that comes out of his mouth, you're like, where the fuck did that even come from? Me Like, what is? So yeah, there's there's something in there.

50:51 There's in there like and the fact that he's obviously written a song that The Beatles have been recorded, that's huge. But then the other. Boys, not The Beatles. Oh, sorry, Beach Boys. Sorry. Yeah. But on the other hand, he's then, I don't know, perpetrating all these crimes against young women like I I don't know. It's just that he's such a he's crazy. There's so much going on there. So are we at the? I think that's brings us to yeah, OK. So on the 9th of August in 1969, the Manson family basically embarked on what was a 48 hour killing spree.

51:26 They turned up, so Manson decided that they were going to target the House of Sharon Tate and Roman Polanski. Which is where Terry Mulcher used to. Live used to live. That's right. But he knew he wasn't living. There. Oh yeah, yeah, absolutely. He'd gone, he'd gone there multiple times saying I want to see Terry Mulcher. And he'd been told by the owner of the house, no, he doesn't live here anymore. He wouldn't tell him where he lived. He just kept saying I moved to Malibu like. So their house is in Cielo, Dr. Benedict Canyon that comes up in another one of our episodes.

52:02 Robert Durst, if you haven't already, haven't already listened, but basically Charlie decided to send his, I'm going to call them his disciples out to to Cielo drive to basically incite a horrific crime and violence. He sent them on a bus. Yeah. They arrived somewhere around midnight. I don't know how. Like there must be public buses that go that late. I really don't know. But they went by public bus. They one of them. So he sent, was it 5 people or four people? He sent Tex Watson, Susan Atkins, Patricia Krenwinkel and.

52:47 Linda, OH. My God, I've got it written down. Where Linda, Linda anyway and Linda and out there to basically like. These are van Houten, sorry. That's it. Well done to basically go out there and kill them all and come back with some money. Yeah, He's like, you must come back with money. They must all be dead. But he wants them destroyed, destroyed because just going one step back a little bit too. Just prior to, not prior. Well, not just prior like building up to this, Charlie had started training his disciples as you want to call so the women and the men around you know this whole idea of Helter Skelter in his mind of like, you know, this race war that he was wanting to insight.

53:36 Yep, because the whole idea was that they would then rise out above the of the from the ground, you know, after it all and be the living, the only living people left, right. So he started teaching them how to use knives and how to, you know, kill people basically and to go for the jugular and go for the penis on a man and all these sorts of things like with the women. And he taught them all how to do this. And there was these major sort of like he would literally run sessions with them on how to how to do this.

54:04 So they will heavily trained and also armed with knives. Yeah, yeah, and a gun. Well, yeah, So Tex had the gun. Yeah, but all the women had knives. Yeah, so Tex was the only male. Yeah. And then four females, 3 females accompanied him. Yeah. Now let's just set the scene of the Tate Polanski household. So Sharon Tate was almost nine months pregnant. 8 1/2 months pregnant. At this point, she had not long gotten home from London, where Roman Polanski was directing a film. He was supposed to come home with her, but something happened with the script or something was going on and he decided to stay in London.

54:49 He says that when so she actually came home on the QE two. She went home on a boat, not not by plane, but he said when he dropped her off at the at the port to say goodbye to her, this absolute, he said he was in tears because he had this voice inside his head saying you're never going to see her again. And he said, you know, he felt so uncomfortable and so bad about it. They actually had to just quickly go and find some women to make him feel better. And he, he's very open and explicit in saying that Sharon Tate being pregnant just didn't do it for him.

55:29 Her body she was. Oh my, stunning so. Stunning, so stunning. Oh God, beautiful. Like and even like. There's photos of her pregnant. She is, Oh my God, just gorgeous. And here's me stupidly not my research for this, thinking that it was kind of odd that her ex-boyfriend was one of the men who was there at the house that night. It's not kind of going, oh, that's a bit weird. How would Roman feel about that? Well, Roman was our fucking anything that moved over in London. What? Now God. OK, now Sharon knew knew this, this wasn't a secret that he was and and for as long as they'd been together.

56:08 So he and Sharon were married, but for as long as they'd been together, he was having affairs with other women. He, Roman Polanski was not. He didn't hide it, He just did what he wanted to do. Sharon Tate thought that by the baby wasn't planned, but she thought that maybe that would be the thing that might stop him from doing that. But he actually didn't like her body when she was pregnant. And he had to, you know, change the way he did things. So that wasn't ideal. I didn't know we were. Talking about two pieces of shit in this.

56:42 Turns out, turns out. I mean, look, nothing to be taken away from the fact that his wife and baby were murdered, but you know, he's still a piece of shit anyway. So in aiming to create this absolute mayhem, the family turn up and sorry, let me just get my list of people who were there. Stephen parent these he was a murder, the first person to be murdered on this property. There were five people murdered this night. He was actually visiting a cat, the caretaker of the property who lived in a guesthouse on site and who the police actually originally thought was the perpetrator of the murders.

57:28 So this poor little 18 year old boy, Steven, 18, was getting in his car to leave because he'd had, you know, had the time, you know, had the time with his friend and was trotting off home. They thought, well, the family turn up basically at that point, stab him to death in his car. Yeah, I think they shot him. I think next text shot him three times in the chest or. Something. Is that him? Was it OK? Yeah. Sad, horrific, horrible, yeah, Tex then says. He actually, he actually begged them and said like I, I'm, I won't say, I won't tell anyone to hear, just let me go.

58:04 Like, you know, like I, I won't say a word. They tried to get out of being there and Nah, they just shot him. Horrible. Yeah, Tex then sends. I believe he sends Susan Atkins around and he's like, go and have a look around and see whether you can find a window or something for us to get in. So they'd already broken through the gate, which I believe was a jar or something. No, they climbed up the side of that. Like, so there was, it was a gated property, but you could climb through brush and things.

58:32 And this was part of the training that they'd done with Bats and Pryor. Yeah, around all of this as well. So, you know, they had climbed up through this brushy area and climbed over things because they weren't sure if the gate was electrified or whatever. Oh, like, yeah. So yeah, they climbed over all these, yeah, shrubbery and everything to get in, yeah. Like real army shit. Yeah, full like that they called it sneaking or something. They'd gone, they he'd teach them to do this stuff out in the woods and yeah, it's.

59:00 Just horrible. So Susan's gone around to have a look to see whether she can find a way to get into the house. Apparently she came back and was like, Oh no, I didn't find anything. She had. She'd found an open window and an open and a door that was unlocked, but she didn't want to go through with this. She was already having reservations, having seen Steven killed by this point. She was like, Oh no, I couldn't find anything but. I think that was actually Linda Van Houten. Yeah. Yeah. OK. Susan Atkins.

59:30 No, she was in on it. She was in. OK sorry I'm getting my people mixed. Up. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But unfortunately, techs actually found that there was AI think the front door was open. Yeah. And they've entered the property. So it was Susan Atkins, the one who then went and checked all the rooms. Yeah. OK. So Susan walks into the house and apparently walks freely, like, as if she belonged there. Yeah. And walks past. So the other people in the house that night. Let's go to that, actually. So we had Sharon Tate, 26 years of age, married to Roman Polanski, 8 1/2, nearly nine months pregnant.

1:00:07 Her ex-boyfriend, Jay Sebring, who was a celebrity hair stylist and well, for sure, Sharon and he were doing it because they were in a room together in the bedroom together at the time. There was Abigail Folger, or Folger, who was an heiress to the Folger Coffee fortune. Like I, I believe an incredibly wealthy family of Folger. Really. Very. Well known and like. Very wealthy? Yep, incredibly wealthy. Like coffee who funk it but. Not like me. Yeah. Is that the buckets that you drink? Bucket. Them afloat.

1:00:46 Buckets of wine and buckets of coffee keeps us going. That's it. So Abigail was actually dating. Now, I'm not even going to try and pronounce this guy's first name, but his surname is Frykowski. Frykowski was one of Roman Polanski's best mates. Not a good dude. Not a good dude by any stretch of the imagination. He was also Polish. He apparently he was like some film director. Although I actually looked him up and I couldn't really find anything that he was credited for that was legit. He was a drug addict.

1:01:21 And Roman had actually said to him, you need to stay at my house and look after Sharon while I'm over in London until I get home. Sharon wasn't happy about it. She didn't want him there. Yeah. And felt quite uncomfortable with him being there because he was a bad dude, right. Abigail and he were doing it. Dating. Dating. Yeah. Yeah. That's. That's a weird thing in and of itself. So inside the house, there are these four people. So we've got Sharon and Jay and then Abigail and. Void check. Void check.

1:01:55 OK, Frykowski, right. So no. Who's gone in Linda? Linda's down. No, Linda's been sent down the driveway now to basically scout for them to make sure no one's coming in. Yep, Susan Susan's gone to gathering up everyone. Yeah. So so basically, I think Texas told her to get everyone into the lounge room, into the living room. Yeah. And so apparently Susan walks past where Abigail was, and Abigail saw this person who she didn't know but went. That's normal. Like that's normal to have people who don't know.

1:02:32 Yeah. Oh. Wow, yeah. God, I believe Frykowski was actually already in the living room. And sleeping on. The couch, Sleeping on the couch, Yeah. And then Sharon and Jay were in Sharon and Roman's bedroom together, and so they've been then brought out into the to the living room. And what followed is actually horrific. Utterly. Horrific. It's actually sickening. So if you don't want to listen to this bit, fair call, maybe skip ahead 3 or 4 minutes because it's it's horrible. Yeah, they were all stabbed.

1:03:11 Sharon was actually stabbed in her stomach. They tied them with their nylon rope together, like all together, Yeah. And then they. Yeah. It was a free frenzy. It was apparently a frenzy. The amount of stab wounds that each of them had was actually unable to be counted because there were just so many and all of them had wounds to their jugular. So that was, I think, what killed all of them, essentially, yeah. And then? Although this is awful, so Sharon Tate they because they hung her as well. She was actually alive when they did do that.

1:03:55 So that although her A cause of death was the haemorrhaging, but she but the that she certainly was still alive at the point of being hung up as well. I read somewhere that her baby survived roughly 15 to 20 minutes after her death as well. I don't know how they know that. No. But I mean, they stabbed her in the stomach, so yeah, Oh my God. They stabbed her so frenzied that actually one of her boobs was actually like disconnected from her body. And it that's just purely from all the the multiple stabbings in that sort of region area.

1:04:33 And it wasn't that they cut it off or anything. They actually just from the stabbing of it. But they also marked an X on her stomach where where her baby would be just just. You can't even. You cannot even imagine it, no. Utterly atrocious, atrocious. They then used the blood to write things on the walls. So there was other words, pigs, I think on the word there or it was, I'm sorry. It was another one where they wrote more, I think. So this one was just, I think it was just pigs, another wall, the wall here.

1:05:14 And that that was done by Susan Atkins. She claimed to have done that because there was another murder by the, the, the family where there'd been an arrest of this Bobby, Bobby Beausoleil and he'd been convicted of that. So basically her thoughts were, well, supposedly that if she wrote those words on the wall, which she also wrote on the wall at that murder because she was present for it, but the cops hadn't done her for it at all. She felt that if she did that at this killing, then the police would would sort of go, oh, can't be, can't be Bobby Beausoleil, who did that murder because this it's the same person that connected them and go, oh, well, he's in jail, so he can't have done this one.

1:05:55 So then they'd release him. That was her thought process on that, but didn't. Quite pan out that way. Pan out No. Yeah, Oh God. So after this incident, when they've committed all this atrocity at this house, they've left there and gone back to the they were living at this Spawns ranch at the time, going back to their master, Charles Manson and told him what they had done. And he was not happy because they'd only come back with $100. And that's. All that Sharon Tate had in her wallet, apparently.

1:06:33 Well, according to the police, when they finally got to the house, there was a hell of a lot more around. I reckon, I reckon they forgot. Oh, the same to me. That wasn't there. That actually wasn't their mindset. But that, that was the thing that Charles Manson was like, so fixated on was getting their money. Yeah, getting money because they had none, because the family had no money. They wanted to make this look like a robbery and everything, but they also wanted to make it look like that the Black Panthers had done it so that it was this race thing.

1:07:03 They were, you know, that these, you know, that the Black Panthers had gone in and, and done this murder so that the, that the white men would then be angry that this had happened to all these white people. And yeah, that was their their ideal. So, yeah, it's insane, absolutely insane. So since he wasn't happy with what had happened there the following night he drove out again with them to. I thought he went that night. No, it was the following night was that was like midnight. Sort of stuff. But I thought he went like in the early hours of that morning and restaged the scene because the following night is when they perpetrated the lust.

1:07:41 Yeah, the love. Bianca murder. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The following night, they went out for the. Look there. Yeah. So on the night of this killing, though, he, Charles Manson, went back there. Oh, yeah, He would have wiped the scene. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sorry, I missed that. Yeah. Yeah, and staged he. Left things he left a pair of glasses there to sort of throw the cops, which it did that the glasses they did follow it go down that track yeah they did so it worked but. And he wiped things. He picked up things that they'd left her that they shouldn't have left.

1:08:04 Yeah, he wiped down the scene. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, he, this is the thing he had No Fear of, like walking into that property that like, oh, the police would be on their way or, you know, that he just, oh, this arrogance of, yeah, sadistic nature. It's just gross. Yeah, so the on with the it's they're called the Sharon, the Tate murders. But at the Tate household, the Polanski Tate household, the following morning, their housekeeper turned up for work and she saw Stephen deceased in the car. And she didn't go any further and called the police.

1:08:42 And. And that's how, how that sort of whole scene was uncovered. Yeah. And the police say that originally they arrested the house, the groundskeeper who lived on site at the at the guest house, because he was asleep the entire time and didn't know anything had happened, despite the fact that there were gunshots there would have, I mean, the sounds would have been there would have been screaming. It would have been horrific. Yeah, because I mean, Sharon actually, when she begged for her baby's life, you know, like she would have been.

1:09:16 I can't even imagine. It just makes my heart that she because she said just please let me give birth to my baby like and. Then you can kill me Do. Whatever you want to do. Yeah. Because the thing was, I mean, at 8 1/2 months pregnant, they could have literally cut that baby out of her. And that baby could have lived like my I just look, she just, she wanted her baby to live. Yeah. And oh God, can't even. It makes me. It actually makes me feel. Sick. Absolutely. The following night on the 10th of August in 1969 this time Charles Manson participated in the murders of the Love Bianca's.

1:09:52 So there was Leno and Rosemary Love Bianca. They lived in a middle class suburb in LA. So this is not the Benedict Canyon of LA where you've got celebrities and multi $1,000,000 homes. This is in a fairly middle class lovely suburb. Like it's, you know, oh, he's a. Supermarket executive He. Was really nice homes. That's right, yeah. But it's not. It's not what Sharon Tate level home looks like. Yeah, So they break into the Labianca's home. Charles ties them up this time. So he, he's a lot more, I don't know, present and involved in this incident.

1:10:45 Well, I think murder he. Claims he did that, but he actually, I don't think this is the thing. He was so such a little man. Tiny in so many ways. So many ways he was I think he he would big note himself like I've gone and done this for you know, you do the rest, you know, but from the accounts of the others there, he didn't do much other than instruct them. I. Think, yes, I think you're right. So from what I can gather, the most accurate account of it is that he did go in there and tie them up. He said to them, we're just robbing you, we're not going to kill you if you let us take whatever we want to take.

1:11:23 And they were like, Yep, Yep. You do what you want to do. Yeah. Charles then disappeared. He fucked off. Yeah. And sent the disciples in, and they murdered both Rosemary and Leno. Yeah. This was reported a lot quicker to the police. I actually don't know how that happened. Do you know how that one happened? No, I don't. But I know the police attended far quicker than it's not like they were found. Maybe someone heard something, Actually I'm not sure. No, I didn't actually find anywhere that said that of how that was.

1:11:56 Yeah, how? The police found out about it, but they did. And they actually went down a path in investigating these murders because Lena was actually a drug addict himself and a gambling addict, right? And they thought that maybe he'd gotten himself into a bit of trouble, and they were sort of investigating things down that pathway. Yeah, again in blood. Was it now? Was it Patricia? No, yeah, it was Patricia Kremwinkle this time. Yeah, she wrote in blood on their fridge. Hilda Skelter. Hilda Guild.

1:12:33 So apparently she was literate and because she was so young when she was indoctrinated into this, so her education was, you know, at stunted at quite a a low level. So she wrote HEALTER Skelter in their blood on their fridge. Yeah, she also wrote Rise on the Wall and Death to Pigs in the Blood. Yeah, so gross. It was I'm. Sorry, go. No, I was just going to I think it was, I want to say that it was text that did this or it might have been her. Actually, no, it was her. She also grabbed a like A2 pronged like carving fork like and she stabbed Leno in this in the stomach like 14 times with it and then left it sitting like sticking out of his stomach.

1:13:24 She actually carved the word war into his stomach. Yes. Yeah. As well as that, the fork sticking out to God. Oh God, yeah. So present at this, this incident was Leslie van Houten, which I think I said Linda earlier. Sorry, Leslie van Houten, Clem Rogen. So there was another man at this one as well, as well, as well as Tex Watson and Krenwinkle, I don't believe was Susan wasn't at this one, was she? Yeah, she was Susan. Was there she? Was there Tex Watson, Susan Patricia Krenwinkle, Leslie Van Houten and what's what was?

1:14:01 Clem's surname, Grogan. That's it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yes. So just so yeah, these two incidents have happened. And what I found really fascinating was that they've both absolutely horrific crimes of like a frenzied stabbings. They're both got similar words written on walls in blood, happened one night after one night at park and the police come out and say there's no link between them. Totally unrelated, unrelated crimes. They're so far from looking at who this would would have infiltrate. It would have perpetrated these crimes.

1:14:36 It ain't funny. They've got no idea. They're off on fairy land of like, no idea what's going on. Here at this point, they had when they when they made this announcement, yeah, they had the groundskeeper in custody, yeah, which obviously he had, he had nothing to do with it. And they also had already started investigating, like any criminal links that Leno had. Yeah. So they had their theories already in in place. They also so off the mark. Oh, so off the mark. They also had Roman Polanski down as a suspect.

1:15:08 Right. For a for months, yeah, right. Even though he was proven to be in London and he was granted because he was a Polish citizen, he had to be granted an emergency visa to come home like literally the day after these murders took place so that he could come and obviously, yeah, deal with everything that had happened. God. So what the fuck were the police doing? Oh, yeah. So they would never have worked this out, I think, which is not actually what the Manson Family want. They wanted them to pin it on someone entirely different.

1:15:40 They wanted to go down this route of this Black Panthers. You know, so in order to try and do that, what they did was they actually stole Rosemary's wallet that night, on the night of the lesbian his murder. Yeah. And they left it. They went and dropped it in a black neighborhood, Yes, because they wanted the police to find her wallet in the black neighborhood and go, oh, black people have done this. Yeah, yeah, this is black people. 'S fault because the other interesting thing is like in the the Tate house household, Quincy Jones was supposed to be there that night yes which.

1:16:12 I'm and Mama Pass from the Mamas and the Papas. She was meant to be there, too. If they were, I wonder what they would have done with that, to flip it, how they wanted to say that this was done, you know, by black people against white people. Like, I wonder how they could have flipped that if that had been the case. You know, I don't know because I don't think they would have. I don't think that the people infiltrating it would have known to pull back or anything. Oh, not at all. Like, they would have been on this.

1:16:39 Yeah. Yeah. So. Yeah. But so from this basically, yeah, the cops have got no idea. And so unrelated entirely to these murders, there's this, you know, hippie group that they're that the cops are well aware of living out on this ranch at the back of LA It's an old movie set they run. It's a pretty weird ass place. Yeah. They they run like horseback riding out of it, you know, But it was used for movie sets and now it's sort of dilapidated. And oh, it's, it's like ruined. Oh, I I find it really funny how like watching that that doco where they were.

1:17:10 There was the clips of them back in in 1968, nineteen 67, talking about living there and how and one of the girls is like, Oh gosh, it was just it was so idyllic and it's so you know, like beautiful here and and then like her, her now of 2017, saying it was gross. It was there was rats everywhere, it was sanitation nothing it was would have stunk it would you know where like in her but in her LSD tripped out mind it was the most. Nirvana. Nirvana of places. Amazing. Yeah. So they were all living out in this place and they would doing horrific things.

1:17:45 They also had another ranch out in Death Valley which is supposedly where they were going to go and live underground until this war. Broke out. Rise above. Then they'd rise from the ground. Yeah. So after these murders, they head out to Death Valley and they're all, majority of them are out in Death Valley at this point. And but the, they were stealing vehicles and taking them back to the ranch, turning them into June buggies and all these sorts of things. There was also some a file that was lit and all these things that were going on that the cops go out there and start raiding the the ranch.

1:18:16 There was actually 3 raids of both Death Valley and and Spawn Ranch. And on these occasions, various members of the cult were arrested. So we get to a point where Manson was actually arrested for arson for this fire head lit Susan Atkins was arrested for vandalism and and theft, I believe. And then other other members of as well were also in prison for various other theft, theft, vandalism, all these sorts of things. So fairly petty sort of things. But they they needed to steal to survive, because none of them they weren't.

1:18:52 None of them were. There was no legitimate. Income there, no. So whilst they're in jail, Susan Atkins, who was a very interesting person, she's in prison with these women who were also known to the cult, you know, things that they, they actually had been there at various times. They weren't cult members, but they were friends of the cult who just happened to be in prison at the same time they. 'D kind of been there. They'd hung around but hadn't fully drunk the Kool-aid. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And so she just this Susan starts bragging about these murders that they'd committed.

1:19:27 And so from this, one of the women in particular was saying, you shouldn't be saying any of this, like this is going to get you into trouble. You should shut your mouth. Another woman, though, who was overhearing all of this, use it to her advantage. Well, she was like, oh you beauty, keep going. I want to know all of it so I can like reduce my sentence. Exactly. So she did. She went to the cops and she said, you know, you need to look at Susan Atkins. I've got some information for you. What can you do for me?

1:19:51 Yeah, yeah. Spilled the beans on what had been said. So the cops then started like looking into it. And yeah, there was, there was evidence to show that obviously with them being arrested, there was fingerprints on file and they were able to match them up with fingerprints at the scene of particularly I think at the Tate residence. There was also some other physical evidence that was found. Let me find it. But yeah, there was physical evidence that was that was found at both the scenes mainly. Tex Watson was then linked up with it with some physical, physical evidence that that linked.

1:20:29 Are you talking like fingerprints? There's definitely fingerprints, yeah. Of certain people, I think. They only found Tex Watson's fingerprints at one of the scenes anyway. Yeah. I mean, I don't think that was they weren't wearing gloves or anything like that. I think I feel like they found more fingerprints at the Labianca's scene because Charles Manson had actually gone tried to clean up the Sharon Tate house, whereas nothing like that had been done at the Labianca's At the Labianca's. Oh, sorry, he's the weapon.

1:21:02 Yeah, the gun linked him up. So he actually found him in the possession of the the 22 calibre gun. That who? Had the gun. Tex Watson. He didn't get rid of it. No, he still had it. What a fucking idiot. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, that was I would be linked up with. The right, yeah. As well. So there was definitely. So there was enough evidence there to be like, Yep, Yep, you're done for guns and. Then there were cult members who were and they had to literally deprogram them to get this evidence. There's one particular female who stepped up and came forward with a lot of information for the police to be able to carry through with this and be able to get them all on it.

1:21:41 And so. And she was very much shunned by the rest of them. And, you know, they all hated her for doing it. That they. Yeah. So she came forward and was able to give lots of information and background around what was set up. And because she didn't actually, she was given immunity because she didn't actually do any of the murdering, but she was witness to these crimes. So. Yeah, so. It wasn't actually until 1971 that they were taken to trial. So it's taken two years or a year and a half, nearly two years, Yeah.

1:22:13 In order for this to be brought to trial. Manson's behaviour in being interviewed and then throughout the trial process was bizarre. He was, to say the least, such a strange, such a strange cat. And it was very sort of theatrical in the way he'd be like and then like. He. It was, it was, it was like he was, it was performative. It was he was, he was putting on a show for every, for anyone and everyone who wanted to to listen to his rantings and ravings. Yeah. He was sentenced to death. And that was actually then commuted to a life sentence in 1972 when California got rid of the death penalty.

1:23:01 Yeah, so Charles Manson spent the rest of his life in prison. Yep. The other women who were convicted? And Tex Watson, So Tex Watson, they all got life sentences eventually. They were all given death penalty to begin with. And obviously when that was found to be, what do you call it, like not constitutional, I don't know what they how they decided it. Wasn't, I think they just abolished the death penalty in California only yeah, in 1972. So yeah, their sentences were then commuted to. Life yeah yeah to so they've got life sentences but they.

1:23:36 That also meant they were a bit touched to parole minimums as well which obviously the death penalty there's not so yeah so that became a bit interesting yeah. Tex Watson was still in prison, was still in prison. He it was up for parole 18 times and denied every single time. But he's still alive and he's up for parole again in the next 12 months ish. I want to say he's got like a parole date for later this year potentially. Interesting, yeah. What are the chances he's going to get it though? I think the same to none because I think in prison he's pretty horrific.

1:24:11 Yeah, he's, he's perpetrated crimes in prison and that's why he's been denied parole 18 times. It's not only due to the severity. And you know how horrific the murders were that he that he committed. Absolutely. He's actually then gone on to further perpetrate crimes. And he's certainly not a model prisoner by any stretch of the imagination. So I think it's very unlikely that he will ever get out of prison. And he's a really old man now, like. 75 I think he is. But he looks old, like prison. Has prison done good things to me, There's a good.

1:24:43 Skin care there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Patricia Cranwinkle is still alive and in prison, and she's actually the longest incarcerated female in inmate in California. Yeah. So I think she's like 72. Yes, sorry, 72. Yep. Linda Van Houten, we'll go back one before her, actually. Susan Atkins. Sorry. So she has passed away? Yes. So she lived out her life in prison. She died in prison. She died in prison so but now Linda Van Houten, she was actually very interesting and Leslie found Leslie Van Houten. I've actually that's where I've done it.

1:25:18 I've written Linda in my last last minute late night. Oh yeah, right. Research writing Leslie Van Houten. She was actually awarded, awarded 2 retrials for her her convictions, but and the second one occurred in 1978 and that resulted in still a conviction of two counts of murder and was given minimum seven years to life. Now, people were really concerned about this because as I was doing the retrial, even though she was gonna, they were fairly convinced she was gonna be convicted. Still, it could still mean that time spent in prison meant that she would walk straight out even though she was convicted.

1:25:52 Yeah, so, but turns out no. So she has spent 2053 years in jail. So far she has been rejected for parole 24 times. The now this last one though where she was the parole board actually in her last two. So the parole board awarded her parole. However, the governor, who is still the the governor at the moment, Hegsome, is that right? He he was the one who actually said oh, no, no, no, no. That's nice of you to say that, parole board, but no, I'm gonna say no. Yep, I didn't realise that a governor had that authority.

1:26:30 I mean, I knew they could excuse prisoners, but I didn't realise they could keep prisoners in. Yeah, I would have. I thought that once a parole board made a. Decision like if you're out, that's kind of it you're. Out, but no, so yeah, he he said. Nah, back in you go. So she didn't get that one. And that was, like the day before she was. Yeah. So she had two weeks of thinking she was getting out. Yeah. And then he went there. So then again, the last one, she was granted parole by the parole board again.

1:26:56 And Hexworth again said Nope, Nope, go back in. She appealed that and the appeal board upheld that she should be released. So in 2023, Yep, she walked free. Yep. So she is out and about living her life. There's been no word that she has done anything and I hope by this stage in prison she has been. Deprogrammed. She's in her 70s. Yeah. You know, she's lived pretty much all of her adult life 53. Years in jail. God, I mean, what life do you have outside? I guess we send people to prison with the view to reform.

1:27:34 Yeah, I know that is impossible in some cases. Let's hope that in in Leslie's case, that's what's happened because she's had her whole adult life really to think about the things she's done, to understand that. And I mean, part of her appeal and the reason that she just wanted to go to trial again in this late, late 70s was because she was so young. She was fed LSD. She was brainwashed essentially into following Charles Manson without having an independent thought. Yeah. And so, look, I can almost understand why she didn't feel culpable.

1:28:18 And if we go back, she was the one who will talked about where she was sent to, you know, find who was in the house, all those sort of things and who said, Oh, no, no, no one else here keep let's. Keep She didn't want to do it. She. Didn't want to do it. So a little bit more remorse than others. Whereas I would say the rest of them, there's no, there was 0 remorse. Yeah. From Susan Atkins, you know, and I mean Charles Manson, holy shit. I mean, in jail he's been a problem. He has he, I think he, he's been reminded like, I mean, sorry, there's been 108 cases of him being involved in things in prison, including in bringing drugs to the jail.

1:28:56 He's been mostly in like isolated sections of the jail. Yeah, somehow he has managed to work the system and managed to get drugs brought in and all these sorts of things. You can go and see an interview of him when he was. It was the first interview he did after being imprisoned, and they allowed a camera crew to come in there and film him. Yeah. I think if you go and watch it, you can sort of see the state of mind that he was in. He was just, Oh, my God, just crazy. But then I can also understand how people were almost drawn to him in a way, because some of this, as I said before, some of the stuff he said, you're like, oh, yeah, OK, that kind of actually makes sense.

1:29:42 And yes, it's rambling and yes, it's crazy. And yes, then he goes off on all these bizarro tangents. But like, maybe people would take that one thing that resonated with them and kind of go with it. You know, You've got nothing else. You're crazy. What else you got? What do you got to lose? You might as well follow the crazy dude who, yeah, might give you a, you know, some LSD or some harder, harder shit, you know, crazy. We'll just smuggle it in. Exactly. But like, I mean, so crazy that the people followed him were like, you know, when in in during the court hearing where he was denied to be to represent himself.

1:30:13 Yeah, the next day he shows up in court with, I mean, ex carved into his his forehead. And then what do his followers do? They all cover, they all do the same thing. But he didn't. It's like, Oh yeah, I don't get it. And I think I think what we've spoken about a cult on the show on the show before. And I believe at that time we were like, we do not understand how people like I, I get that people who join cults are generally quite vulnerable. They're looking for something, they're looking for purpose, they're looking for somebody to follow.

1:30:44 They're probably lost in their own lives. But this to the extreme to which people go, like you say, carving and like literally scarring yourself. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, they shake their heads too, which I mean that. I mean, shaving your head that that, whatever. Yeah, but they're carving it into your head like that's full on. It's so full on it. It just, that's the stuff that blows my mind. Yeah, yeah. So obviously Charles Manson was he was convicted of the murders, but conspiracy to murder as well.

1:31:19 Yeah, because he there wasn't sort of the evidence of the fact of him actually committing the murders. However, in jail he has admitted that he two other prisoners. He's boasted as if he has killed at least 12 other people. Yeah, and up to 24 like as in the total #30? 5 is 35. They. Yeah, there's a number, there's a list and a mile long of people that they believe, you know, that he could be connected to or at least family members directed by him to have been murdered. They were just the. The list is so long it's ridiculous.

1:31:53 I know. Do you want me to read out the names? I like who they are, but it's just insane the and when you read them there are certainly strong connections as to how they were linked to the family. I know. Yeah, read a few. Yeah, OK, well, so Nancy Warren and Clyde Delaney. Nancy was 64 Clyda sorry, 24. They were both found near in in California at a antique store owned by by Nancy. They were both beaten and strangled to death with 36 leather thongs. After the family members were arrested, they became suspects when it was discovered that members of the family had been in the in the area at the time of the murders.

1:32:37 However, no one in the family was ever charged. What did you just say they were? Something about leather thongs? What was? That yeah, they were they sorry. They were strangled to death with them with 36 leather thongs. As in like flip flops or? G strings. Well, yeah, maybe G strings. Oh, I don't know. Yeah, right. Sorry, sorry. John Phillip Haut was 22, was an Ohio native who had moved to California and met Manson in the summer of 69. He joined the family amongst the and amongst the group was arrested in October in one of the raids.

1:33:14 I think he was a really good musician, this kid. Yeah. Is that right? That's how he was drawn into it. I think so, yes. It was definitely associated with them. But he suddenly found a gun in a room, picked it up and promptly shot himself while attempting a game of Russian roulette, which is what the family members. Yep, explained it to being as the police for. To the police, yeah. However, you would expect that if you were playing Russian roulette that you would pick up that gun and find that there was 1 shell and no bullets and no bullets left in it.

1:33:44 Yeah, it was the complete opposite. It had however shell casings in it however, meaning I'm not good with guns. But if it was another 5 bullets left in it and the 6th 1 was shot so the gun was fully loaded, there was no Russian roulette about it. So there was witnesses to the death. It's always been considered to be him that he that he murdered. He he committed suicide, Yeah. And killed himself. However, there's strong belief that it was set up to go down that way. Yep. REIT Hovertson, 19, a young woman found stabbed to death in 1969.

1:34:25 Her body was found with over a hundreds, 150 stab wounds from a pen knife to her neck and upper body. Which is where Manson had told them to stab people and lots of defense wounds in her hands. I don't remember reading. About she'd been disposed along Mulholland Dr. Some witness claimed to have seen a woman named Sherry. Yes, right. Who matched the description of them in the Manson family, but they couldn't ever connect her up entirely. Yes. Yes. Yeah. So yeah, I'm definitely, I mean. The least?

1:34:59 Is. Basically endless, isn't it? Oh, it literally. Goes on and on and on. Yeah. And so that's like you've probably got the list there of the potentially 35 who who are more than likely, you know, perpetrate murders were more than likely perpetrated by the family. But then if you go online, you can find hundreds and hundreds of cases where people are like, even if it's like a copycat style thing, yeah, of very similar trademarks and all of that sort of stuff. So it's actually unknown how much devastation these people or this cult has actually caused.

1:35:32 Yeah, I mean, I certainly don't think that walking into the Tate Polanski residence was the first time those people had done anything like that. Agreed. It, it was, there was certainly a build up to it in terms of his training of them as well. You know, as I said there, there was, you know, these training sessions on how to use a, a, a knife. There was training sessions on how to, you know, hide in bushes and all these sorts of things. Then they would go out, he would send them out to do robberies.

1:36:00 You know, it was, it did, it did escalate, you know, slowly over a very short period of time. And I can, I dare say there were many, many murders that were preceding. It proceeding, do you think, do you think that because Sharon Tate was Sharon Tate that this is kind of, you know, I think gave given them the notoriety? Absolutely. Yeah, Yeah. I think that linked to the fact of like, you know, that in a way it was more of a massacre in that there was five people killed at one in one time and then very quickly followed with a very similar sort of style in the next.

1:36:32 They could pin those ones on them very. Easily. I think it's worth noting just really quickly as well that no one was ever convicted of the murder of Sharon and Roman's baby. No, I would literally gonna say the same thing. That really irks me. I think today would be different for sure. I believe the law has changed, particularly a baby that far along. That's I mean, as we say, if she had, she could have given birth that day and that baby would be 100% viable and would have lived and survived. Absolutely.

1:37:00 So that should have been, it should have been an eighth person added to the convictions, to be really honest. Yeah, agreed. Yeah, I think that was an oversight of the law at the time. At the time, yeah, definitely, yeah. Crazy. As we said at the start of this, we could probably talk about this for days and days. I've actually just realized I've got 2 pages pages. I've got 2 pages of notes here. I haven't even, we haven't even spoken about. But look, if you want to know more, there is obviously plenty more out there.

1:37:36 We have given the highest of high level overviews of what's going on of, of what happened. You've done a great job, Meg, as always. Oh. You. You go, girl. You are amazing, love it. Next week we are actually delving into another huge case, Snow town going. Back to Adelaide. Adelaide, we have quite a few Adelaide cases we have coming up, so for those of you in the area, stay tuned. Yeah, I'm sure you know a lot about Snowtown already. For those of you who don't, TuneIn next week and and learn all about it.

1:38:12 Yeah, it's been regularly been updates recently due to that, so. Yeah, yeah. My dad actually asked. That was the 11 case. He's asked me, are you going to recover that? And I'm like, yeah, we will. So, Dad, next week. Dad AKA Ronitals. Yep, Ronitals one. Would dad be older than Ronitals? They'd be very similar in age I think. Doppelganger. Yep, totally. All right. Thank you everybody for joining us. As always, please follow us on our socials. We've been getting, as we said, lots of engagement over on TikTok and Instagram.

1:38:44 Love your messages. Please keep sending them through. We really, really, really appreciate it. If you'd like to buy us a coffee, you can do so at buymeacoffee.com. Forward slash to crime besties and we're looking forward to seeing you all next week. For sure, stay curious, crime besties. Bye.