Episode 33 - Charles Manson

0:15 Welcome back to Crime Besties to episode 33.

0:20 Can't believe it. I know we say this every week

0:22 and it must be so annoying for everyone to listen to, but well

0:26 first of all I feel like when we get to the end of a very

0:29 research heavy week, patting myself on the back a bit.

0:34 Yeah, it's kind of like finally Friday's here, I can get this

0:37 stuff out. Yeah.

0:38 And we can talk. Yeah, yeah.

0:40 We can actually, like, have open conversation about it all

0:43 because, yeah, it's this one was a heavy week.

0:45 We're talking about Charles Manson and the Manson Family

0:49 today. But I feel as though for me,

0:53 this week has been, well, there's just so much.

0:56 Yes, where and where to start? And where to start and how deep

0:59 to go into things. So I I bet we've got different

1:02 stuff. So that's exciting.

1:03 I'm hoping so. I reckon really for sure.

1:05 Yeah, yeah. I think we'll both bring

1:07 different things, yes. How's your week been?

1:10 Yeah, good. Oh, my God, Getting back in the

1:11 swing. Things has been rough.

1:14 Yeah, this week's really hit me. I think I was saying this

1:16 morning like I've, you know, worked a full week and the kids

1:20 have been back at all their sport and everything.

1:22 Everything's back. And and then this lingering of

1:25 like that, there's more to come that's coming back, yeah.

1:27 In. Terms of sports and things for

1:28 the filling up the week that it's like I'm really tired.

1:32 I'm really tired. I'm I'm feeling like this

1:34 weekend's I'm just need to chill.

1:37 Yeah. And recover.

1:38 Yeah. But I really can't because it's

1:40 just, you know, go, go, go. There's so much to do.

1:42 Yeah, there's always so much to do.

1:43 And I, I think one of the mums from our youngest kids

1:48 basketball team posted a meme, I think it was on Facebook or

1:51 something the other day. And she was like, just when you,

1:53 you think you're gonna get your weekends back because your kids

1:57 might start sleeping in a little bit more, bam, there comes, you

2:00 know, junior sport. And I'm like, oh, yeah.

2:02 Oh. That's exactly.

2:03 My kids are like so tired at the moment.

2:04 Like I have to wake them up at the moment in the morning for

2:06 school and like, I'm like, oh, great, hit the weekend and we

2:09 can, you know, just chill in the morning and have a bit of a

2:11 quieter weekend. Oh no, 8:00 AM basketball game.

2:13 Bang. Thanks for that.

2:14 Yeah, yeah, it's. So we've got that again this

2:17 weekend. I think going back to school is

2:20 a bit of a double edged sword. I love routine.

2:23 I think the most kids love routine.

2:25 You know that that really works well for most people, Yes.

2:29 But then you've also then got, on the other hand, you've got

2:34 lunch boxes every day, not having those lovely slow

2:38 mornings that you normally get in, you know, in a school week

2:41 and sorry, in a school holiday week.

2:43 And yeah, yeah, that's just so much.

2:45 I feel like there's just so much to do all the time.

2:47 Like yesterday, drop kids off, go to work, pick kids up.

2:52 Then we had to go and get basketball shoes because I was I

2:54 was that mother. And.

2:57 I I can almost like, yeah, I did the same thing.

3:00 I didn't really. I kept saying to my kids, you

3:01 know, we don't, let's not do school shoes to go back to

3:03 school with. I reckon you can hold out a bit

3:05 longer. And because we've just done new

3:06 basketball boots, you know, and everything.

3:08 I was like, school shoes can just hold out one little bit

3:10 longer. And I picked up Mason's last

3:12 night after you saying that about Ollie's shoes.

3:15 And yeah, his is like at the back of his shoe.

3:17 It's like down to like the innard.

3:20 Like. OK, so we're going to get school

3:22 shoes. Yeah, mine was basketball shoes

3:25 for Ollie. His feet, his toes were like

3:27 curled into the into the tops of his shoes.

3:31 And the only time I had to go between yesterday when I oh,

3:36 Wednesday night when I discovered this issue and.

3:39 Surprised he didn't say anything, that I was like, you

3:41 know, my toes are squished. And he did.

3:44 Ohh I get. I was like, I'm sure they what?

3:46 Shush you What? What would you know?

3:49 And yeah, so the only time I had to go was last night and it was

3:52 just crazy. It was just mental.

3:53 And then, yeah, as you said, by the time you go to bed, like

3:56 you're just exhausted. Totally.

3:58 Anyway, you're trying to. I think once we're in searching.

4:01 Oh, yeah, yeah. I think once we're in the in the

4:05 thick of it and things are sort of on the go.

4:07 It's just the getting back into it all.

4:08 Like I thrive on routine. Like I get to the end of like my

4:11 six week holiday and go like, you know, yeah, bring on the

4:14 routine. I really need it because I feel

4:16 like you can just get a little bit.

4:18 I find I I can fit a whole lot more into my day when I'm busy.

4:22 Yep. Like I get more done when I get

4:24 on holidays. I find myself doing the whole

4:26 like, but I've already got 1 something on that day.

4:29 Like I can't do something like two things.

4:32 Whereas when I'm back in routine, it's like what what 10

4:35 things in a day? Sure, I can fit all the worries.

4:38 Yeah, but it's just getting. I've got a break.

4:39 Between 11:15 and 11:45. Sure, slot that.

4:42 Is I can do that for sure, yeah, yeah.

4:44 So I and I do thrive in that kind of environment, but it's

4:48 just, yeah, it's switching back to it that you kind of go.

4:50 OK. It just takes you a bit to get

4:52 used to it again, I think. Yeah.

4:54 Yeah, but we'll get there. We'll get.

4:56 All good. It's.

4:57 Starting the kids with you, that's the hardest bit, I think.

4:59 Really. Yeah, 'cause they're, oh God, my

5:01 2 are so tired at the end of the day.

5:03 And it's that overtiredness where, you know, they, they,

5:07 they equally wanna stay up later.

5:09 They're trying to push for later bed times, which I'm holding out

5:11 on. Absolutely.

5:12 There's no way we're pushing those out.

5:14 So then they get grumpier that I'm being such a bitch that I'm

5:17 not letting them have like a late night, like, you know, but

5:20 they, but it's, it's, it's, you know, exacerbated by this whole

5:22 fact of like that they're already overtired at 6:00 PM,

5:26 like asking me for a late night that they're crying about it

5:29 and, you know. You're like, oh, This is why I

5:32 can't give you a late night. Yeah, you're really not prepared

5:35 to be able to have a late night. They'll they'll get into the

5:37 swing of it as well, because six weeks of not doing much, you

5:41 know, yeah, it's just takes some time.

5:43 And then also, I think switching a little brains on for school

5:45 for six hours a day, that's exhausting in and of itself.

5:49 Totally, totally different use of brain activity than we do on

5:51 the holidays, for sure. Yeah, yeah.

5:53 New teachers, new classroom, you know, structure with different

5:56 kids. It's full on.

5:57 Yeah, but anyway, that's all part of the rich tapestry that

6:01 is life. Yeah.

6:03 So no, it's good. I'm.

6:04 I'm really happy to be back in routine and and all of that sort

6:08 of jazz. Anything else been going on?

6:11 Oh no. No, same.

6:14 I I feel like we always talk about the same things, but I

6:16 mean that that our weeks are our weeks.

6:19 That's just the way the way it is, so.

6:21 You can't fit anymore in, can we?

6:22 Well, it is. Look, I'll, I'll, I will give a

6:25 bit of a shout out. It's producer Pete's birthday

6:28 today. Happy birthday Pete.

6:30 Happy birthday. So I actually sent him off to

6:34 lunch with his dad because I was like, sorry, we've got a podcast

6:37 to record. Too bad, but I had a weekend.

6:40 Yeah, and I'm taking her out for a nice dinner tomorrow night.

6:42 So birthday, weekend, that's it. You know, spread it out.

6:45 He told me last night, though, that he feels as though the week

6:49 preceding and the week following a.

6:51 Birthday. Oh, Valentine's Day is in there.

6:54 You 2 are gonna have your love fest, aren't you for?

6:56 Oh, totally, 'cause we're really super into that, actually.

6:58 Do you wanna know the most romantic thing that Peter has

7:01 ever done for me? This.

7:03 Did you take it to Star Wars? Star Wars or something?

7:06 Did he? Oh God, no, I've never.

7:07 Seen. No, I know.

7:09 Shocked. No.

7:09 So I I feel like it might have been the first Valentine's Day

7:13 after we bought this house. Oh yeah.

7:15 So we had didn't have kids yet. I don't think we were married

7:18 yet. And I went to boot camp in the

7:21 morning and I came home and he had made me poached eggs on

7:26 toast with bacon, but he'd cut the bacon into love.

7:30 Heart shapes what I know how. Romance.

7:34 Is that romance? Pete.

7:36 Yeah. Oh, that's so cute.

7:37 I don't think he's ever done anything romantic since

7:40 actually. Not the way Valentine's E type

7:43 people like we normally don't even.

7:45 Well, you love. It.

7:46 Oh no. But yeah, that's so romance.

7:50 Yeah. Oh, that's really cute, Pete.

7:53 Yeah, yeah, heart-shaped bacon. How can you go wrong?

7:56 So, so simple, but so effective. I still remember it, however

8:00 many years later. Because he's never done one

8:02 again since. Oh, you can remember that.

8:03 No, no, no that. Was a a single day inspiration

8:06 and that's that's passed him by now.

8:09 Oh wow, it's the most romantic thing someone's ever done for

8:12 you. Oh, thought you were an electric

8:15 toothbrush from four years. Yeah, yeah.

8:22 Probably. How's the romance on that?

8:24 Oh. The romance is so dead.

8:25 Yeah, yeah. I don't know.

8:29 Well, you can't really talk bacon.

8:31 Heart-shaped bacon, so it's probably not even worth

8:34 mentioning anything else. I mean, in my love language is

8:36 definitely certainly not like that sort of stuff like

8:39 Valentine. No, I it's a big.

8:42 Thing, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

8:44 What is your love language? This is like a thing that people

8:46 talk about these days. Yeah, do you know what?

8:49 I feel like my love language changes all the time.

8:51 OK sometimes I'm I need affection and then other times

8:55 I'm like fuck off don't come near me.

8:57 Don't touch me. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

8:58 So I feel like it's I Yep, it's equally it's up and down as my

9:02 moods. OK, that's fair.

9:04 Yeah, I think for me it's active service, both giving and

9:08 receiving. Like I like doing things for

9:10 people. Yeah, and I like it when people

9:14 think about me to do something for me.

9:17 Like I really appreciate that the the fact that thoughts gone

9:20 into it and. Yeah, when you put it as acts of

9:23 service, I like, I think that that's probably a a love

9:25 language. I like 'cause like, I don't like

9:27 giving, I don't like getting gifts necessarily because

9:30 someone gives a shit like, you know, IE electric toothbrushes.

9:33 But when it's really thought about and it doesn't necessarily

9:36 need to be one that's cost anything, it can be doing

9:38 something that's just genuinely something that someone knows

9:42 there's something about you and that's what you would want like.

9:45 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Agreed.

9:47 Agreed. It's not about the thing, no.

9:49 No, no, not. Yeah, agree.

9:51 Yeah. Yeah, with you on that.

9:53 Well, there you go, I. Have to look into it.

9:54 I've actually haven't done any of that.

9:56 You know you can do like quizzes on it and.

9:58 Maybe we should do one and come back next week and let's see

10:00 what it comes out as. I'm making notes.

10:03 Love language? Actually, we better write that

10:04 in our in our books for next week, otherwise we'll forget to

10:07 do it. Yep, totes.

10:10 All right, I'll, I'll do a do a quiz.

10:12 What? We used to get them out of

10:13 Cosmopolitan. Now where do we get them from?

10:15 Google. Google.

10:16 All right, cool. Tiktok Speaking of Tiktok,

10:20 though, our Tiktok's been blowing up Yeah, it's been going

10:24 really well. So if you're not, if you haven't

10:26 joined us over there, please do Oh, funny story.

10:30 So you know how last week's. So we're recording this a couple

10:33 of weeks in advance, but last week the Carol Baskin episode

10:38 came out and my kids are always like, oh, what episode's coming

10:42 out today. And I, I, I was like, Oh, it's

10:45 Carol Baskin. I don't know if you know, like

10:46 the Tiger King And they're like, oh, no, no, go Carol Baskin.

10:49 And then I'm like, oh, there's actually a song about it.

10:53 And I brought up the Carol Baskin song and Oliver's like,

10:56 is that a TikTok? And I'm like, yes.

10:58 And he goes, know this star, I don't know.

11:01 And, and he's like, can we do it?

11:04 And I was like, Oh yeah, right, fine, we'll do it.

11:07 There's no way I'm posting it like.

11:08 It is embarrassed. Bring it up.

11:10 It's got to get posted. It's embarrassing, but it was

11:12 actually a bit of fun, like doing the dance and learning,

11:16 you know? Carol Bayer skin killed her

11:18 husband whacked in. It was in my head that entire

11:23 week researching. People are going to be seeing

11:25 that now all day after having listened to this.

11:27 Thank you. It's yeah.

11:29 You'll thank us later, yeah? Anyway, yeah, join us over on

11:33 TikTok. You never know what we're going

11:35 to post. Let's just stick to the videos

11:38 from our podcast, yeah? Hey, Fair.

11:40 Fair. Fair, fair.

11:41 Oh, God. All right.

11:42 Should we get into today's episode?

11:44 Yeah. I think we might be avoiding it.

11:46 Are we, I'm, I'm feeling a bit like, as I think we alluded to

11:50 at the start of this, this is a massive yeah.

11:53 A There is so much information out there and depending on where

11:59 we went for information, right? This is true for me.

12:01 I'm sure it was for you too. You could get totally different

12:04 takes on the way things happened and different perspectives.

12:07 There's a few conspiracy theories attached to various

12:10 things of it, and you can get down some serious rabbit holes.

12:13 Yeah, so if you wanna do that, there are so many things out

12:16 there. There's long form short podcast,

12:19 short form podcasts. There's so many different like

12:21 documentaries and the. List of documentaries on this

12:25 and and just and even like movies that or shows that have

12:29 taken, you know, some sort of like inspiration from this

12:34 story. Is like Once Upon a time in

12:35 Hollywood, like, you know, this the latest, I think it's the

12:39 latest Quentin Tarantino movie even depicts this like it's it's

12:42 in popular culture. Oh yeah.

12:44 And so therefore can obviously be depicted in, however, in

12:48 whatever light people sort of wanna present it as I tried to

12:52 be really quite factual when I was when I was researching it.

12:56 So we're doing our best that. But as I said, there's so much

12:59 information out there if you want to know anything.

13:01 Yeah, and you do need to be a little bit careful because of

13:04 that fact. Like things can get a bit blown

13:06 out of proportion on certain parts of it, I think.

13:09 And like and, and not be factual.

13:10 So yeah, Yeah. But there's definitely tons of

13:13 factual stuff out there too. Yeah.

13:15 Yeah. But it's he's this is, yeah.

13:17 Crazy. This is the one where I was like

13:20 every time I'd be listening to something or whatever, I was

13:22 reading something about this, you know, I wasn't leaving it

13:24 lying around. I leave the kids here, any of

13:26 these. When I was doing stuff I was

13:28 like this is one that I'm Nope, Nope, Nope.

13:30 And even his rantings and stuff like he's.

13:32 Oh yeah, he's an. Interesting character.

13:34 Yeah. Anyway, Charles Manson was born

13:37 on the 12th of November in 1934 in Cincinnati, OH.

13:42 We were just talking before we started recording.

13:45 There are some resources out there that state that he was

13:47 born on the 11th of the 11th and that that was like some kind of

13:50 devil's number or something. But from all the more reputable

13:54 sources that I looked into, date of birth, 12th of November.

13:57 Sorry it doesn't fit your little you know.

14:00 Yeah, it doesn't tick that box. Doesn't.

14:01 Tick the box. Everything else be up after that

14:03 point in my stars though. Pretty much.

14:06 Pretty much so. Charles was born to Kathleen

14:11 Maddox, who was only 15 years old when he was born.

14:15 Yeah, and she was working as a prostitute at the time.

14:18 Yeah, yeah, So sad. She hadn't had the best of

14:21 upbringings herself. I think she was, she was living

14:24 like on the streets, wasn't she is a 15 or well, 1415 year old,

14:28 Yes. And obviously, you know, turning

14:32 tricks to yeah, to make make ends meet and to sort of live

14:36 her life. Yeah, the man and so her, the

14:40 biological father of Manson or Maddox at the time when he was

14:44 born, he was even not named on the birth certificate at the

14:48 time, but later on was that she took a man to court to verify

14:53 that he was the father and he was even he was nine years older

14:56 than her. Yeah, so he was 23 at the time

14:59 of the birth. So this guy, so Manson's real

15:02 father. His name is Colonel Scott.

15:05 And Colonel, as in like Colonel was his name.

15:07 Like, as in the honorific Colonel is his actual given

15:11 name. Yeah, but he would then use that

15:13 as a way of being like, oh, I'm a Colonel in the Army and oh

15:16 shit, I've knocked up a 15 year old, I'm gonna fuck off 'cause

15:18 I'm a Colonel. He.

15:19 Told her at the time he goes, I'm, I'm a Colonel.

15:21 I've gotta go out now. Oh yeah, you're pregnant.

15:23 I'll support you. But I've been called out to.

15:26 I've gotta go. You know, I'm posted somewhere.

15:28 And it wasn't till quite a few months later that she realized,

15:31 yeah, he's not coming back and he's not in the Army.

15:34 No, he's not a Colonel. His name is Colonel.

15:36 Yeah. Like what a hell.

15:39 What a shit. I mean, she's 15 years old, of

15:40 course she's going to believe what this older man's telling

15:43 her. Yeah, but he mad at mum.

15:46 Charles Manson never met his father.

15:47 Like, yeah. She so Kathleen was from a

15:52 devout Christian family. They were very odd in their

15:57 practice of their religion, from what I can gather, and but like

16:01 very extreme, which is why when Kathleen was having issues,

16:05 she's left home and turned to prostitution to support herself

16:08 as a young girl. But when she fell pregnant, she

16:11 decided to go back home and seek the support of her mum.

16:16 And her mum basically said to her, well, like this is just

16:19 unacceptable. You're, you know, you're young,

16:22 you're pregnant, you're unwed. You've got to sort that out or

16:25 I'm sending you away. And so Kathleen decided that the

16:29 lesser of those evils was to actually find a man to marry

16:32 before the baby was born. And she met a man named William

16:37 Manson. He was 25 years old when they

16:40 got married. And Kathleen was still 15.

16:42 She was, I think she was 20 weeks pregnant when they got

16:44 married. So they must have met.

16:45 Yep. And married very, very quickly.

16:48 I married in the August and he was born in the November.

16:52 Yeah. So they were really married

16:53 quick. Yeah.

16:55 And he was 25 to her fifteen. Oh, yuck.

16:58 Yuck. And he was gross.

17:00 Like, gross, gross. Look up.

17:02 You can look up photos of him. He even looks like creepy.

17:04 Oh, yeah. He was named as as Charles's

17:08 birth father on the birth certificate because they were

17:10 married, obviously. Yeah.

17:12 Hence the fact that Charles Charles's surname is Manson.

17:16 Yeah. They were divorced a few years

17:19 later. And.

17:20 Did you read what he named as the divorce?

17:22 The reason for the divorce? Oh, was it?

17:25 I think I did. Go tell me so.

17:27 They divorced in 1937, right? So they weren't married for

17:30 long. And Manson the as in her

17:35 husband, he alleged gross neglect of duty as the reason

17:40 for divorce? What the fuck?

17:43 What was she not? Putting out like, I mean,

17:48 clearly that cannot be a reason for divorce.

17:51 But maybe in 1937 that was a. Reason, I dare say it was, yeah,

17:55 that you weren't fulfilling your 40s as a wife.

17:58 That is so gross, isn't? That disgusting.

18:01 That is so gross. Yeah, but Kathleen actually took

18:04 him to court for child support. Yeah.

18:07 Because obviously, I mean, he was named on the birth

18:09 certificate. Yeah.

18:10 But paternity testing then proved that he wasn't a

18:14 biological father. And then Kathleen actually had

18:17 no way of seeking out Colonel or where three years or what he was

18:21 doing. So she was now left with what?

18:24 What was Charles at that time, like 1 1/2, two years old?

18:27 Yeah. Bringing up this little boy on

18:28 her own. According to Charles Manson, his

18:32 mother was neglectful and abusive.

18:36 He tells a story of when he was, I think he was eight years of

18:40 age. And his mum was, I think she was

18:43 again, working as a prostitute. I think she had a bar job.

18:46 But then was also. I'm not quite sure where that

18:50 all kind of tied in, but she offered a patron.

18:55 Yeah, a jug of beer. Like she wanted to take a jug of

19:00 beer in exchange for them taking Charles as a as an 8 year old

19:03 boy. Yeah, like essentially adopting

19:06 him for a jug of beer or selling him he.

19:08 Was even younger than that. I think it was a baby.

19:09 I think he was like a baby, a toddler at that point.

19:12 Oh, right. Yeah.

19:13 Oh my God. Yeah, because it actually the

19:15 transaction took place. Yeah.

19:17 She took the beer and the other person took the baby.

19:19 Took. Yeah, Charles and her brother

19:22 had to go and get him back. Yeah, yeah.

19:24 Well, I know, I know that's what happened, but I thought he was a

19:27 bit older than. That maybe.

19:28 I've got. I mean, I might be.

19:29 Wrong either way, no matter how old he was.

19:32 What the fuck? Yeah, but yeah, I mean, she also

19:35 went to prison when Charlie was like really young.

19:37 He was five. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

19:39 And he went. Her brother, her and her brother

19:41 were doing it together like they were on robberies etcetera

19:44 together and they were both arrested and and sent to prison.

19:47 Sorry, you know, he's lived a, you know, really a young early

19:53 childhood. Did not stop there by any means.

19:56 Like he, she, she didn't want him.

19:58 And I mean, she's 15 when she had him.

20:01 She's a child herself, you know, you can't really hold that a

20:03 whole lot against her, I guess. But at the same time, yeah, he's

20:07 not had the upbringing that of any typical childhood.

20:11 He's had to fend for him. He's for himself pretty much

20:13 from the get go. Yeah.

20:15 And then because. She's, she didn't, she couldn't

20:17 handle him. And at one stage he was, he was

20:21 put into a home for boys and he was being abused etcetera there.

20:25 And he, he couldn't, he didn't want to be this.

20:28 He'd run away and he ran away like 18 times from this place.

20:32 And on one occasion, which was close around Christmas time, he

20:35 he ran home and went to his mother and she just took him

20:39 straight back. Yeah, some really horrible

20:41 things happened. So when she got out of prison,

20:46 she actually met her new husband and married him fairly quickly.

20:50 I think they actually met in prison or her brother was with

20:53 him in this guy in prison. So not a good sort.

20:55 No, no. But he didn't take to Charles at

20:59 all, didn't want him around, didn't want anything to do with

21:02 there's. Accusations that he's abusing

21:03 him sexually, physically. Emotionally, yeah.

21:07 So that's when they sent him to this reform school.

21:11 He held up a shop at gunpoint, and he was sent to a juvenile

21:18 prison. In that prison, he was raped

21:22 routinely. So much so that in an interview

21:24 that I was listening to with him, he basically said, yeah, it

21:27 was just an everyday thing. Like it wasn't.

21:29 He didn't even look at it as a trauma because it was just

21:31 something that happened every day and he just sort of went

21:33 with it. But same on the flip side, like

21:35 I think it was about a month or so before he was about to be

21:37 released from there. He was caught raping a boy and

21:41 also with a, with a razor to the boys throat.

21:44 Yeah. Like, so, yeah, he was.

21:47 He, you know, he'd been sort of groomed to the point where he

21:49 was in, you know, also perpetrating these, these crimes

21:53 against other people. That's it.

21:55 So after that event, he was sent to, like, a maximum security

21:59 juvenile prison. Yeah.

22:00 And apparently, like, literally the worst of the worst kids go

22:05 to this prison. And so now he's sort of

22:08 surrounding himself with even worse people and worse

22:12 influences potentially. He was basically in and out of

22:18 juvie for like most of his, well, most of his younger years.

22:25 The biggest thing for that was that the crimes that he would

22:28 commit when he was out, he would, they'd end up being

22:31 federal crimes rather than just state, because what he'd do is

22:33 he'd steal a car, right? But instead of just stealing a

22:36 car, he'd drive it over state lines.

22:38 So then it would become a federal, federal crime.

22:42 And therefore he would get even longer sentences and be sent

22:45 back in to these reform schools to begin with.

22:48 And, you know, and juvenile detention centers, but then then

22:51 prison later on once he was old enough.

22:53 And so he would do quite lengthy stints as well.

22:56 And then eventually he'd get to the point where he'd get parole,

23:01 but he would do something in in jail right before his parole

23:04 date would be like before he would be up for parole.

23:06 And so then he'd go to the parole hearing and they'd be

23:08 like, you're not getting out. You've just done this like so he

23:11 wasn't helping himself get out. Either, but that says a lot to

23:14 me. You know, when I was looking at

23:17 this, I was like, OK, this is one of those instances where I'm

23:21 like, when somebody tells you who they are, believe them.

23:24 Yeah, he is telling you that he's a bad person.

23:29 And maybe this is his way of being.

23:31 Like, I don't want to get out because I know when he was

23:33 released prior to, you know, the crimes that he's most known for.

23:39 Yes. He actually begged not to be

23:42 released from prison. So this is in 1967.

23:45 Yeah, he begged the parole board, parole board to keep him

23:50 in prison. Yeah, he actually said it, that

23:52 prison is his home and he requested that he stayed.

23:55 He had lived something like 60% of his life by that point. 32 at

24:00 that age, yeah, yeah, yeah. 60% of his life in prison.

24:03 So this is what he knew. Yeah.

24:05 And he obviously didn't feel comfortable going out into the

24:09 real world. No, I'm sure they weren't the

24:10 support, You know, these days, prisoners, if we're looking to

24:14 reform, then there's support for them in terms of like housing

24:18 and all of that kind of stuff. But he was released from prison

24:21 in 1967. Yeah, with no home, nowhere to

24:25 go, no money. He, I don't even know that he

24:28 had. I think he had to wear his

24:30 prison issued clothes home because he didn't even have any

24:32 clothes that fit him. Yeah, yeah.

24:34 So he's left to his own devices and the only thing that he could

24:38 do that day was contact an ex inmate who he was, who he'd

24:43 befriended when he was in there and asked to sleep on their

24:46 couch. But then his wife got Jack of it

24:49 and was after a few days and was like, Nah, fuck off.

24:52 He's not staying here anymore. Yeah, yeah, he's he's not

24:56 staying here anymore. No.

24:57 And So what? He's then left homeless,

24:59 basically. Well, he was, he was left

25:01 homeless. And yeah, what's the person to

25:03 do with no support? No, because I mean in jail he

25:06 sort of found his people. Yeah.

25:09 Oh, absolutely. He.

25:10 He got into religion, he got into Scientology particularly.

25:13 He was very, very much learning the, the offerings of what

25:17 psychology had and was engrossed in that.

25:20 And he sort of, you know, he had people listening to him and

25:22 he's, he's philosophizing on those sorts of things.

25:25 So he, he was already developing into it.

25:30 Very incredibly interesting person.

25:32 Oh, very interesting. Yeah.

25:34 And very devout in what he was. Yeah, in what he was reading

25:43 and, and I guess like very devout in his conviction for

25:49 these philosophies and all of these things.

25:51 So he'd basically taken parts of science, mostly from

25:55 Scientology, but he had some Christianity thrown in there.

25:58 He and he started developing his own like.

26:03 Yeah, belief system. Belief system, yeah, yeah.

26:07 And he'd take from each what he liked and leave the bits behind

26:11 that he didn't. And so that really, I guess,

26:17 started what we now know, yes, the Manson Family cult, really.

26:22 Yeah. Well, I mean it was quite early

26:24 on. It was one of his stints in

26:26 prison, as in the IT was at one of the schools for boys that he

26:29 was staying in. So pre, pre, pre to prison and

26:33 things that they did do an aptitude test on him.

26:37 Yeah. And that determined that he was

26:38 illiterate. But at the same time, we had an

26:40 above average IQ of 109. So not, you know, genius status

26:45 by any means, but certainly an above average IQ.

26:48 But he was also in already displaying aspects of an A

26:52 highly aggressive antisocial behaviour.

26:56 So that was when he was, you know, pre 16, like, yeah, yeah.

27:00 So there was traits there already of all sorts of things

27:03 showing through. Yeah, yeah.

27:04 Yeah. I mean, yeah, his whole life

27:07 really sort of led to where he was, yes.

27:12 Should we start now with sort of more around the cult and how

27:16 that all came came back up? Yeah.

27:18 So when he first he gets out of prison in 1967 and from there he

27:25 well, he was interesting something sort of he fell

27:27 through the cracks a little bit somehow with his parole

27:29 actually. And he ended up in San

27:31 Francisco, which is it was actually a breach of his parole,

27:34 which I find really interesting. And that's where we get a little

27:36 bit conspiracy theory ish. Yeah.

27:39 Because he then with arriving in San Francisco, technically, when

27:42 he he did do the right thing and he contacted the people he

27:46 should come to contact to say, you know, like this is where I

27:48 am and declare that. And instead of them going,

27:50 you've breached your parole, you've crossed into a different,

27:53 different area than what you're allowed to.

27:55 They've gone. Oh, yes, sure.

27:56 No worries. Here you go.

27:57 This will be your parole officer here in San Francisco and handed

28:00 him over to a man of by the name of Roger Smith to be his parole

28:04 officer. Now, this guy was linked with

28:08 Berkeley University and he was doing involved with another guy

28:14 named David Smith, I think his name was.

28:17 Yeah. And he was doing studies on LSD,

28:22 the use of LSD on patients and how that influenced people and

28:28 how that could be used to influence people in situations

28:30 of, well, we're getting into the MK Ultra kind of without that

28:35 being used as a term. But he was certainly, he was

28:38 included in these studies that this guy was doing as part of

28:42 his. Parole.

28:44 Yeah, yeah, I don't. I mean, it wasn't an official

28:46 condition of his parole, but it was like, well, now that he was

28:50 under the the care or guidance or whatever of that, what was

28:54 his name? I've just Roger Smith.

28:56 Thank you. Smith.

28:57 Yeah, yeah, he's basically been coerced or forced or I don't

29:04 even know, but in. Turn put into the hands of

29:06 someone who's been a previous drug user and also a criminal.

29:13 Yeah, and you presented with mental free LSD.

29:15 Yeah, and you presented with mental health.

29:19 Yeah, obviously mental I'll health, I think.

29:21 It was under the guise of this whole, you know, like we want to

29:24 study, you know, criminals who are broke coming out, coming

29:27 into back into society and you know, and study how your, you

29:30 know, your brain works and how you we can, you know, like, yes,

29:32 we introduce you to. Chuck you some LSD and see.

29:35 What happens see what happens to someone in that category which

29:39 so it it very quickly it was noticed by there was a that one

29:43 particular comment. I want to try and find it where

29:46 this David Smith actually made a comment around how how he he

29:51 presented in these studies because it was he was

29:54 incredible. It was the most abrupt that he

30:00 had observed in in his entire professional career that it was

30:06 Manson's ability to use this LSD to his advantage over others.

30:12 How so? So as in as in with Manson.

30:15 Taking the LSD So basically in these these studies, there would

30:21 be Manson and other people taking this LSD and whilst they

30:25 were then left in this room to then, you know, all trip out

30:28 together. Manson would become very

30:31 naturally the leader and spout all sorts of his philosophy and

30:37 all these Scientology and things that he had brought to he was

30:40 bringing to the table. And these other people would be

30:43 engrossed in what he would he was he was spouting and be and

30:47 following him and he was and he was absolutely.

30:50 So this guy immediately saw this of like what is going on?

30:54 Yeah. What is this?

30:55 Yeah, that's really interesting because when he when Manson

31:00 formed his cult, The Family, Yeah, he.

31:03 So the people who were in it now have since said that obviously

31:10 Manson would give them LSD and they'd be tripping, but he would

31:15 never take it. Well, he wouldn't, he would, he

31:17 would take it, but he would take far less lower doses, right.

31:20 Yeah. And he, so he was aware like

31:22 this is the, I guess in these studies he was probably taking

31:26 an equal amount. Yeah.

31:27 So he could probably, I guess because he'd had so much, maybe

31:30 he could also take a bit more, maybe his tolerance.

31:32 Was higher. But he was no, it was definitely

31:35 there there there was certain people within the cult like

31:37 later on commented about how they they trick, they had twig

31:41 to the fact that when they would do that, because they would plan

31:43 it, they'd be like, let's all do this trip.

31:45 It would be a thing. But they would notice that he

31:48 would dose himself lower than everyone else.

31:50 Right. OK.

31:51 Yeah, he would take some. Yeah.

31:53 OK. Yeah.

31:55 I mean, with some of the absolutely wacky shit he'd come

31:59 out with, yeah, that surprised me that he was taking something.

32:02 Yes, yeah, it was, he was taking all sorts of things in the end.

32:05 Well, there was 1 documentary I was watching where the guy

32:08 reeled off all the drugs that they were taking.

32:10 And then he like, you know, and yes, there was marijuana and

32:12 hashish and and then he was doing acid and all these other

32:14 things and the list was getting longer and longer and then he

32:17 goes. So yeah, not hard drugs.

32:22 Where's the line? Yeah.

32:25 Not being a heavy drug taker myself, tell me when it when it

32:29 graduates. Time.

32:29 Let me know. Let me know when it flips.

32:31 Yeah, to the other side. I would have thought it would be

32:33 a quantity as well, as well as the type, you know what I mean?

32:36 Yeah. Yeah, yeah, that's it.

32:39 And also like the mix, the cocktail, the.

32:41 Cocktail of it. Come on.

32:42 Oh God, yeah, 'cause that was the thing that they were talking

32:45 about the, you know, that, oh, we'd add this to that and that

32:47 would level this out and. Oh, it's real science.

32:50 Real science to it. Well, it hurts.

32:52 Well, just a bit of experience probably enables you to to

32:55 figure that out. Yeah, not only with Scientology.

32:59 An influence for Charlie The Beatles.

33:02 Were a. Massive influence for him and in

33:04 particular their White Album, which he interpreted as a coded

33:10 message basically for telling a race war.

33:14 Yeah. He really thought that they were

33:15 speaking directly to him. Yep.

33:18 So like, I mean, I guess the LSD certainly had an effect mentally

33:21 on him as well. Yeah, So he, he believed that

33:24 black people would rise up and basically take over the US white

33:29 people would have to retreat. And he called this Helter

33:32 Skelter. Yeah.

33:33 Which is, you know, there's a The Beatles song by the same

33:37 name. Yeah.

33:38 How very dare he. You know how dare he.

33:41 Ruin The Beatles? Yeah.

33:43 You know, I think, I think it says something, the fact that

33:48 when you talk about The Beatles, this isn't the first thing that

33:50 comes to your mind, is it? No.

33:52 So thankfully they didn't get, I mean, while their name, you

33:55 know, while the band comes up a lot when you're doing research

33:58 for this, thankfully it's not their legacy.

34:01 And it's not was never the intention of their.

34:03 No, not at all. My God, no.

34:05 Not the peace loving, you know, beetles.

34:08 Yeah. 'Cause he also called one of the

34:09 houses that they're living in at one stage their yellow

34:11 submarine. Yeah.

34:12 And he believed even that Song spoke to them about, but it

34:14 wasn't about the yellow submarine underwater.

34:17 He actually called their house. It was a yellow house, but it

34:20 was them being submersed and acting beneath the surface of,

34:25 you know, under radar basically from like the police and it and

34:29 all that sort of thing. So he he really interpreted

34:31 everything. The way he wanted to.

34:34 Yeah, yeah. I was listening to a podcast

34:36 about this and they were talking about how he called one of their

34:39 houses the Yellow Submarine. And one of the people in the

34:43 podcast was like, yeah, it's 'cause the house was yellow.

34:44 And you can see photos and stuff with it online.

34:48 And so these were. This was an American podcast and

34:50 they lived in the yellow submarine House was in

34:53 California, right? Yeah.

34:55 And they so. And the other person was like,

34:58 no way, no, no, he's just called it that.

35:01 There's no way the house was yellow.

35:03 And they ended up going to the house and it's still yellow.

35:05 It's. Yeah, I mean like it's, you

35:06 know, it's a pastely yellow. Yeah, it's a.

35:08 It's a blue, yeah. It's like a past, yeah, pastel

35:11 yellow, but it's. Yellow.

35:12 It is Yellow, yeah. Which, yeah.

35:16 Oh, God, yeah. All right.

35:17 So he's forming, you know, he, he's forming this cult.

35:22 There's people. People who are.

35:24 Following this word and and a lot of young impression, very

35:29 young, impressionable women. Yeah, the youngest cult member

35:32 known was 12 years of age. A girl.

35:35 Yeah, a girl who left home, joined the cult, lived in the

35:41 house. It was a documentary I watched,

35:43 which I highly recommend anyone go and watch, was called Mance

35:47 and the Lost Tapes and what this is actually footage of.

35:51 And it was footage of a documentary crew who went in

35:55 just after they had arrested and raided the arrested them for the

36:01 the murders, which we'll get to. Yeah.

36:03 So this documentary crew going in there kind of to get the

36:05 family's perspective of all of this, right?

36:07 Which this footage was then really put to the side and never

36:10 used, but there's a lot of footage of them interviewing

36:14 cult members about what was going on.

36:16 And there was a particular girl and then but then there was also

36:19 and then 2017, which is when the documentary was actually made,

36:22 right, which is the year that Manson died.

36:25 They've interviewed some of the girls, the women from the cult

36:29 now like now you know, in present time in 2017.

36:32 And so you watch them on this video, on these, in these clips

36:35 from 19691970, you know, and then now and their thoughts on

36:41 things. And one of them was 14 in the

36:44 video clips, you watched her being interviewed and spoke and

36:47 she's speaking in these clips. And so at 14, she was in this

36:50 cold and in, you know, and, you know, and when I say that it was

36:53 highly sexual, you know, and she speaks then about her experience

36:58 as a, you know, much older woman now, you know, probably what,

37:01 you know, 70s, like 60s at best, you know, speaking about her

37:06 experiences. My God, it just blows my mind.

37:10 But The thing is I was trying to get at was that the experiences

37:14 of these fourteen 1612 year old girls and how they managed to

37:18 end up in this cult is that they were very vulnerable.

37:21 They all had these backstories that were so incredibly sad

37:25 where, you know, mom had rejected them.

37:27 They'd been kicked out of home for some whatever reason, you

37:30 know, someone and then someone didn't believe them.

37:33 You know, there was such tragic stories.

37:36 And then he manipulated them around that and because he what

37:40 he offered them was love. Yeah, in that documentary.

37:45 Oh, yeah. Well, it's so fucked up.

37:47 Yeah. In that documentary, have you

37:48 seen one of the girls? I think this was a slightly

37:51 older girl, but she basically said, like, he has saved my

37:56 life. I don't know what I would do

37:58 without him. He is my God.

38:01 Yeah. He is our God.

38:03 Yeah. And I'm like, so that shows the

38:05 level of commitment. These women, there were some

38:08 men, too. Yeah, but mostly women.

38:11 The men came in like he was able to bring the men in to say go to

38:15 these women, like I can't service them all.

38:17 You should help me service them. Like kind of, they all want sex

38:19 all the time. And, you know, so it was he

38:22 manipulated then the men into it of like that.

38:25 Yeah, they would get these and they were beautiful young women.

38:28 Beautiful. Young women.

38:29 Stunning. Stunning.

38:30 And they were in that era of free love, one around naked most

38:34 of the time like and that it was all on for everyone at all

38:38 times. Yeah.

38:39 Have you heard about Mary? Do you know about Mary?

38:42 Yeah. So Mary was, well, she was a

38:46 vulnerable girl as well. But Manson was looking for

38:49 somewhere to live after getting out of prison in 1967.

38:52 And you know, he'd that stayed his welcome with various prison

38:57 friends and anyone else he could, he could come by.

39:00 So he decided to go out one night and find somebody who he

39:04 could then have sex with and stay the night with basically.

39:08 So he's gone to a bar, I think. And he he even he admits this,

39:14 like he, he is interviewed saying this, that he found a

39:18 frumpy girl who looked like she was a virgin and went for it.

39:23 And it worked like this. This young girl, how old was

39:27 Mary when they met? She was living on her own.

39:30 I think she was over 18. Yeah.

39:32 And 18. 19. Yeah, so Charles went home with

39:36 her that night and basically didn't leave for a very long

39:39 time. They would.

39:41 They were sexually active with one another.

39:45 But then Mary would go off to work during the day, and she

39:50 would, you know, have to pay the rent and pay the food bills and

39:55 all of that sort of stuff. And Charlie had just have, you

39:58 know, various girls coming over, having sex with them while she

40:01 was out. Then it came that she'd come

40:04 home from work and the girls would still be there.

40:06 And he somehow convinced her that was OK.

40:09 Yeah. And she kind of really got

40:11 rolled into all of this. Yeah.

40:13 And Mary actually fell pregnant. What year was that?

40:17 Yeah, so it was 1968 that she gave birth to their their son,

40:21 Valentine Michael. Valentine Michael, sorry, their

40:24 son, because at this time there were 18 women living with them,

40:28 with the, with Mary Bromner and Charles Manson.

40:31 Crazy. And so she's pregnant and giving

40:33 birth to their child and just blows my mind that that was just

40:39 their normal. Yeah, that's just what they did.

40:41 Yeah. Yeah.

40:43 And the other women in the cult supported Mary through the

40:47 birth. And I mean, it's sort of a bit

40:51 bit hippie in nature, I guess, which plays into the time.

40:54 But yeah, how Mary allowed this? I just, I can't even David Smith

41:00 claimed so in these, in that whole stuff, because not that

41:05 Mary Bromner was part of the studies, but he was using what

41:08 he'd learnt there, obviously and taking it out into the world and

41:12 his followers. And what David Smith claimed

41:14 about what he was doing was that he was attempting to reprogram

41:17 people. Yeah.

41:19 And that they would submit totally to his will through the

41:23 LSD and unconventional sexual. Practices.

41:27 Oh, what does that mean? Is this like group, group sex?

41:32 Yeah, because there was a lot of that going.

41:34 Oh yeah. Orgies and stuff.

41:35 But basically what his goal was, was to turn followers into empty

41:38 vessels that would accept anything that he poured.

41:43 Yeah. So he just wanted to do whatever

41:45 he wanted to do them and for them to be OK with it or like

41:50 going along with it. Yeah.

41:52 So at this point, so the 19671968, he's he, this is how

41:57 he's working those women over this is and then bringing in the

41:59 men into these groups as well. Yeah.

42:01 And yeah, he really, he's done, he did some serious damage to

42:06 these people's mental health. Yeah.

42:09 And also physically, some of the women were, I couldn't describe

42:14 it like there was a. Story of this 14 year old that

42:16 was in that documentary really got me that she was saying that

42:19 she had spent time around him and was really feeling, you

42:23 know, loved by him and enveloped by him.

42:26 And so she and she had this great respect for him and she

42:28 was a virgin. And so she went to him and asked

42:31 him to Make Love to her and that she wanted that.

42:34 And so him instead of, you know, was great age of maturity going

42:39 to her as a 34 year old man. He then took her and off to a

42:45 secluded spot, sodomized her, raped her, didn't Make Love to

42:51 her by any means, did awful things to her and then told her

42:55 to never ask for that again. She was like it was she was most

43:00 awful experience that she then yeah, definitely never asked him

43:05 to do that again for her. But also she found herself

43:08 wanting what she had prior to that moment with him so badly

43:12 that she just kept trying to find a way back to that original

43:16 love that she felt for him and that he gave her.

43:19 He she said that was like the drug was trying to find that

43:23 what she get what he gave her previously to that that that

43:26 incident. How could she have?

43:28 How could she have then gone on to have any kind of constructive

43:32 or functional relationship with a man?

43:34 I'm sure she probably unless she got a lot of psychological help

43:38 and support. Yeah, without that, I don't

43:40 think you could. I think it's, it's just terrific

43:42 because she then, like she said, had sex with a lot of different

43:46 men within the the family. And so it became, that's how she

43:50 just lost respect for herself in all of that, which is awful.

43:55 Oh. It's just horrible.

43:57 To have that experience, just disgusting.

44:01 Poor girl. I just oh.

44:02 God, there's so much of it. There's so many different

44:05 stories and. Did you read anywhere like what

44:08 numbers there were involved in this family at?

44:10 This point. So yeah, 100 people at its peak.

44:13 So I, I know I when I thought about this, I mean, obviously

44:18 before researching, I knew bits and pieces, but I certainly

44:21 didn't know a lot. In my mind, I thought the family

44:24 was like thousands of people. Yeah, yeah.

44:26 But it was actually only at at its Max 100, around 100.

44:31 Yeah, but most of them were underage girls.

44:35 So in terms of who held the power, I mean, obviously Charlie

44:39 held the power. He then had his little subbies,

44:43 these little agents, in particular Tex Watson, who will

44:47 come up in a minute, who also perpetrated these absolutely

44:51 heinous and horrific. And the way I just describe.

44:57 It horrible acts on these young women and, you know, all under

45:04 the guise of oh, but I was being guided by a mess.

45:07 They called in the free love. Free love.

45:10 Oh, it's the 60s. I I heard a journalist who

45:14 covered the Manson family a lot in back in the day interviewed

45:19 in AI think it was actually in like a 60 minutes episode or

45:22 something like that. And she actually said the Manson

45:27 murders and the Manson cult signaled the end of the 60s,

45:33 like Single Sing signaled the end of free love and all of

45:38 that, because it was just so horrific that people really

45:42 changed their attitude towards the that whole philosophy.

45:46 So this was a transformative thing for, well, California,

45:51 yeah #1 the United states #2 but then the world as a whole, like,

45:56 things really did start to shift in the early 70s in that

45:59 respect. So yeah, this was, this was no,

46:03 no small, you know, no small peanuts by any, by any stretch

46:07 of the imagination. No, no.

46:10 So Manson's obviously he's got this cult together and on the

46:17 9th of should we get to this now?

46:19 Just before, just slightly before, I guess we should make

46:21 the a link in here of like. So there was actually another

46:25 band that was included in touched into this.

46:28 So in to the 1968 couple of the girls, because what they would

46:31 do is they go ahead and hitchhike.

46:33 He would send them out to check to to like bring more people

46:35 into the cult and when they're in recruiting.

46:38 Yeah. Because what the other thing we

46:39 should mention? He was a mad musician.

46:42 Yeah. I can't believe we actually

46:43 haven't. Yeah, touched on that, Yeah.

46:45 He had to play guitar and in jail and thought himself quite

46:50 the songwriter. And so he what he really wanted,

46:54 basically his life goal According to him, was that he

46:56 wanted to become famous in a famous musician and songwriter.

47:01 So he was in, he brought his family from San Francisco down

47:04 to LA to really try and get into the Hollywood scene and get

47:09 noticed and get, you know, a producer and start producing his

47:12 music. So he started, he did very

47:15 easily make connections and but a lot of it was through the

47:18 women in the cult. So these two girls had gone out

47:22 to hitchhike and had been picked up by none other than Dennis

47:24 Wilson, who was the drummer in The Beach Boys.

47:29 Now, crazy how this all came about, that he was clearly a

47:34 really nice guy who didn't know how to say no to people.

47:37 Yeah. So in the these girls have like

47:40 really worried him and these and they've he's taken them, it

47:43 sounds. Seedy, but it's not that seedy.

47:45 No, yeah. It's really weird.

47:48 But they've gone back to his house and everything, which

47:50 he's, you know, renting this quite lavish mansion in, you

47:53 know, in the back in the hills of LA And they've like, they're

47:57 talking about Charlie and, you know, and he's like, oh, I've

47:59 got a medium, you know, And the next thing, Charlie arrives and

48:02 walks up into the house. Well, I think they stayed there

48:05 for about 6 months. Yep.

48:07 They didn't leave. No, wouldn't leave.

48:09 Which it got to a point where Dennis Wilson was like, he

48:12 actually left the house going nut you got to get out.

48:16 Like this is horrific. So he actually moved out Dennis

48:19 Wilson and moved into his apartment.

48:21 He had somewhere else and the lease was out on this house.

48:25 And then so then they got kicked out and and moved on.

48:28 But that was the only reason that they had to move from

48:30 there. They all just arrived and dossed

48:33 everywhere and free love. Yeah.

48:36 But in in that meeting with Dennis Wilson, he was getting

48:39 some connections. They The Beatles actually

48:41 recorded one of his songs which he got no credit for, so which

48:46 is pretty shit. And wasn't it never released?

48:48 It was released. It was on Australia.

48:49 It was released and you can actually go and go and listen to

48:51 it. So it was called, he called it

48:54 cease to exist, but The Beatles renamed it.

48:57 Never learn to love. Never, never learn not to love.

49:01 OK, I've listened to it. Not great, not one of their

49:05 best. It's not one that I immediately

49:07 go now. Oh yeah, that's a Beatles hit.

49:08 Oh yeah, no, that they call it was on like the the B side.

49:11 You know, OK. Back in the back day, yeah.

49:14 But yeah, definitely, it's definitely recorded.

49:16 And you can when, when you when you hear like that, he called it

49:19 cease to exist. Those words appear in the song

49:22 like you know, it's it is his song that he wrote apparently in

49:25 jail. He wrote about 80 songs whilst

49:26 he was in prison. And so, yeah, they did record

49:29 it, but he never got any acknowledgement for it.

49:32 And the producer on that was his Terry Melcher, who Charlie

49:36 Manson then really was shitty with him.

49:39 And don't blame being shitty with him.

49:41 Like, I mean, he really did get screwed over by this.

49:43 I mean, if you're going to use the guy's music, you've got to

49:46 give him the credit. Absolutely.

49:47 You know, if he's talented enough to have written the song

49:49 and and be there, then name him, you know, yeah, even pay him for

49:54 it, you know. But yeah, so that's that's sort

49:56 of started a real rivalry there in a grudge that I guess maybe

50:02 sparked what happened next. Yeah.

50:05 Maybe I don't know the way that guy, that Manson's brain works,

50:09 it's hard to know whether this was the motivator or just.

50:12 Yeah, you. Decided to pick that to involve

50:15 it as well. Well.

50:16 I think, I think maybe this was a very convenient sort of excuse

50:21 to incite what he wanted to. Yes.

50:26 Anyway, he, you can hear, you can see online interviews with

50:33 Manson and he does ramble a lot. And some of the stuff he says,

50:40 I'm like, oh, that's actually quite clever and really

50:43 insightful. And then other shit that comes

50:45 out of his mouth, you're like, where the fuck did that even

50:47 come from? Me Like, what is?

50:48 So yeah, there's there's something in there.

50:51 There's in there like and the fact that he's obviously written

50:53 a song that The Beatles have been recorded, that's huge.

50:56 But then the other. Boys, not The Beatles.

50:58 Oh, sorry, Beach Boys. Sorry.

50:59 Yeah. But on the other hand, he's

51:02 then, I don't know, perpetrating all these crimes against young

51:07 women like I I don't know. It's just that he's such a he's

51:11 crazy. There's so much going on there.

51:13 So are we at the? I think that's brings us to

51:16 yeah, OK. So on the 9th of August in 1969,

51:20 the Manson family basically embarked on what was a 48 hour

51:24 killing spree. They turned up, so Manson

51:29 decided that they were going to target the House of Sharon Tate

51:37 and Roman Polanski. Which is where Terry Mulcher

51:41 used to. Live used to live.

51:42 That's right. But he knew he wasn't living.

51:44 There. Oh yeah, yeah, absolutely.

51:45 He'd gone, he'd gone there multiple times saying I want to

51:48 see Terry Mulcher. And he'd been told by the owner

51:50 of the house, no, he doesn't live here anymore.

51:52 He wouldn't tell him where he lived.

51:53 He just kept saying I moved to Malibu like.

51:56 So their house is in Cielo, Dr. Benedict Canyon that comes up in

52:00 another one of our episodes. Robert Durst, if you haven't

52:04 already, haven't already listened, but basically Charlie

52:11 decided to send his, I'm going to call them his disciples out

52:15 to to Cielo drive to basically incite a horrific crime and

52:22 violence. He sent them on a bus.

52:25 Yeah. They arrived somewhere around

52:28 midnight. I don't know how.

52:31 Like there must be public buses that go that late.

52:33 I really don't know. But they went by public bus.

52:35 They one of them. So he sent, was it 5 people or

52:39 four people? He sent Tex Watson, Susan

52:42 Atkins, Patricia Krenwinkel and. Linda, OH.

52:50 My God, I've got it written down.

52:52 Where Linda, Linda anyway and Linda and out there to basically

53:01 like. These are van Houten, sorry.

53:03 That's it. Well done to basically go out

53:06 there and kill them all and come back with some money.

53:10 Yeah, He's like, you must come back with money.

53:13 They must all be dead. But he wants them destroyed,

53:15 destroyed because just going one step back a little bit too.

53:18 Just prior to, not prior. Well, not just prior like

53:22 building up to this, Charlie had started training his disciples

53:27 as you want to call so the women and the men around you know this

53:31 whole idea of Helter Skelter in his mind of like, you know, this

53:34 race war that he was wanting to insight.

53:36 Yep, because the whole idea was that they would then rise out

53:39 above the of the from the ground, you know, after it all

53:41 and be the living, the only living people left, right.

53:45 So he started teaching them how to use knives and how to, you

53:49 know, kill people basically and to go for the jugular and go for

53:52 the penis on a man and all these sorts of things like with the

53:54 women. And he taught them all how to do

53:56 this. And there was these major sort

53:59 of like he would literally run sessions with them on how to how

54:03 to do this. So they will heavily trained and

54:06 also armed with knives. Yeah, yeah, and a gun.

54:09 Well, yeah, So Tex had the gun. Yeah, but all the women had

54:12 knives. Yeah, so Tex was the only male.

54:14 Yeah. And then four females, 3 females

54:17 accompanied him. Yeah.

54:19 Now let's just set the scene of the Tate Polanski household.

54:23 So Sharon Tate was almost nine months pregnant. 8 1/2 months

54:28 pregnant. At this point, she had not long

54:32 gotten home from London, where Roman Polanski was directing a

54:37 film. He was supposed to come home

54:41 with her, but something happened with the script or something was

54:45 going on and he decided to stay in London.

54:49 He says that when so she actually came home on the QE

54:52 two. She went home on a boat, not not

54:54 by plane, but he said when he dropped her off at the at the

54:59 port to say goodbye to her, this absolute, he said he was in

55:04 tears because he had this voice inside his head saying you're

55:07 never going to see her again. And he said, you know, he felt

55:12 so uncomfortable and so bad about it.

55:14 They actually had to just quickly go and find some women

55:17 to make him feel better. And he, he's very open and

55:23 explicit in saying that Sharon Tate being pregnant just didn't

55:28 do it for him. Her body she was.

55:31 Oh my, stunning so. Stunning, so stunning.

55:35 Oh God, beautiful. Like and even like.

55:38 There's photos of her pregnant. She is, Oh my God, just

55:42 gorgeous. And here's me stupidly not my

55:44 research for this, thinking that it was kind of odd that her

55:49 ex-boyfriend was one of the men who was there at the house that

55:52 night. It's not kind of going, oh,

55:54 that's a bit weird. How would Roman feel about that?

55:57 Well, Roman was our fucking anything that moved over in

55:59 London. What?

56:00 Now God. OK, now Sharon knew knew this,

56:04 this wasn't a secret that he was and and for as long as they'd

56:07 been together. So he and Sharon were married,

56:11 but for as long as they'd been together, he was having affairs

56:15 with other women. He, Roman Polanski was not.

56:18 He didn't hide it, He just did what he wanted to do.

56:21 Sharon Tate thought that by the baby wasn't planned, but she

56:28 thought that maybe that would be the thing that might stop him

56:31 from doing that. But he actually didn't like her

56:33 body when she was pregnant. And he had to, you know, change

56:36 the way he did things. So that wasn't ideal.

56:39 I didn't know we were. Talking about two pieces of shit

56:42 in this. Turns out, turns out.

56:45 I mean, look, nothing to be taken away from the fact that

56:47 his wife and baby were murdered, but you know, he's still a piece

56:54 of shit anyway. So in aiming to create this

56:59 absolute mayhem, the family turn up and sorry, let me just get my

57:06 list of people who were there. Stephen parent these he was a

57:10 murder, the first person to be murdered on this property.

57:14 There were five people murdered this night.

57:16 He was actually visiting a cat, the caretaker of the property

57:20 who lived in a guesthouse on site and who the police actually

57:24 originally thought was the perpetrator of the murders.

57:28 So this poor little 18 year old boy, Steven, 18, was getting in

57:33 his car to leave because he'd had, you know, had the time, you

57:38 know, had the time with his friend and was trotting off

57:41 home. They thought, well, the family

57:44 turn up basically at that point, stab him to death in his car.

57:48 Yeah, I think they shot him. I think next text shot him three

57:50 times in the chest or. Something.

57:51 Is that him? Was it OK?

57:53 Yeah. Sad, horrific, horrible, yeah,

57:57 Tex then says. He actually, he actually begged

57:59 them and said like I, I'm, I won't say, I won't tell anyone

58:03 to hear, just let me go. Like, you know, like I, I won't

58:05 say a word. They tried to get out of being

58:07 there and Nah, they just shot him.

58:09 Horrible. Yeah, Tex then sends.

58:12 I believe he sends Susan Atkins around and he's like, go and

58:19 have a look around and see whether you can find a window or

58:22 something for us to get in. So they'd already broken through

58:24 the gate, which I believe was a jar or something.

58:26 No, they climbed up the side of that.

58:28 Like, so there was, it was a gated property, but you could

58:31 climb through brush and things. And this was part of the

58:33 training that they'd done with Bats and Pryor.

58:36 Yeah, around all of this as well.

58:37 So, you know, they had climbed up through this brushy area and

58:41 climbed over things because they weren't sure if the gate was

58:43 electrified or whatever. Oh, like, yeah.

58:46 So yeah, they climbed over all these, yeah, shrubbery and

58:51 everything to get in, yeah. Like real army shit.

58:53 Yeah, full like that they called it sneaking or something.

58:56 They'd gone, they he'd teach them to do this stuff out in the

58:59 woods and yeah, it's. Just horrible.

59:02 So Susan's gone around to have a look to see whether she can find

59:06 a way to get into the house. Apparently she came back and was

59:10 like, Oh no, I didn't find anything.

59:12 She had. She'd found an open window and

59:14 an open and a door that was unlocked, but she didn't want to

59:17 go through with this. She was already having

59:19 reservations, having seen Steven killed by this point.

59:23 She was like, Oh no, I couldn't find anything but.

59:26 I think that was actually Linda Van Houten.

59:29 Yeah. Yeah.

59:29 OK. Susan Atkins.

59:30 No, she was in on it. She was in.

59:32 OK sorry I'm getting my people mixed.

59:34 Up. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

59:35 But unfortunately, techs actually found that there was AI

59:39 think the front door was open. Yeah.

59:41 And they've entered the property.

59:43 So it was Susan Atkins, the one who then went and checked all

59:45 the rooms. Yeah.

59:46 OK. So Susan walks into the house

59:49 and apparently walks freely, like, as if she belonged there.

59:53 Yeah. And walks past.

59:57 So the other people in the house that night.

59:58 Let's go to that, actually. So we had Sharon Tate, 26 years

1:00:02 of age, married to Roman Polanski, 8 1/2, nearly nine

1:00:06 months pregnant. Her ex-boyfriend, Jay Sebring,

1:00:10 who was a celebrity hair stylist and well, for sure, Sharon and

1:00:15 he were doing it because they were in a room together in the

1:00:21 bedroom together at the time. There was Abigail Folger, or

1:00:26 Folger, who was an heiress to the Folger Coffee fortune.

1:00:31 Like I, I believe an incredibly wealthy family of Folger.

1:00:34 Really. Very.

1:00:35 Well known and like. Very wealthy?

1:00:36 Yep, incredibly wealthy. Like coffee who funk it but.

1:00:40 Not like me. Yeah.

1:00:43 Is that the buckets that you drink?

1:00:45 Bucket. Them afloat.

1:00:46 Buckets of wine and buckets of coffee keeps us going.

1:00:49 That's it. So Abigail was actually dating.

1:00:54 Now, I'm not even going to try and pronounce this guy's first

1:00:56 name, but his surname is Frykowski.

1:00:59 Frykowski was one of Roman Polanski's best mates.

1:01:04 Not a good dude. Not a good dude by any stretch

1:01:07 of the imagination. He was also Polish.

1:01:10 He apparently he was like some film director.

1:01:12 Although I actually looked him up and I couldn't really find

1:01:15 anything that he was credited for that was legit.

1:01:19 He was a drug addict. And Roman had actually said to

1:01:23 him, you need to stay at my house and look after Sharon

1:01:28 while I'm over in London until I get home.

1:01:31 Sharon wasn't happy about it. She didn't want him there.

1:01:34 Yeah. And felt quite uncomfortable

1:01:35 with him being there because he was a bad dude, right.

1:01:39 Abigail and he were doing it. Dating.

1:01:42 Dating. Yeah.

1:01:44 Yeah. That's.

1:01:45 That's a weird thing in and of itself.

1:01:46 So inside the house, there are these four people.

1:01:49 So we've got Sharon and Jay and then Abigail and.

1:01:52 Void check. Void check.

1:01:55 OK, Frykowski, right. So no.

1:02:01 Who's gone in Linda? Linda's down.

1:02:04 No, Linda's been sent down the driveway now to basically scout

1:02:09 for them to make sure no one's coming in.

1:02:11 Yep, Susan Susan's gone to gathering up everyone.

1:02:15 Yeah. So so basically, I think Texas

1:02:17 told her to get everyone into the lounge room, into the living

1:02:20 room. Yeah.

1:02:21 And so apparently Susan walks past where Abigail was, and

1:02:26 Abigail saw this person who she didn't know but went.

1:02:30 That's normal. Like that's normal to have

1:02:31 people who don't know. Yeah.

1:02:33 Oh. Wow, yeah.

1:02:34 God, I believe Frykowski was actually already in the living

1:02:38 room. And sleeping on.

1:02:39 The couch, Sleeping on the couch, Yeah.

1:02:40 And then Sharon and Jay were in Sharon and Roman's bedroom

1:02:48 together, and so they've been then brought out into the to the

1:02:52 living room. And what followed is actually

1:02:57 horrific. Utterly.

1:02:59 Horrific. It's actually sickening.

1:03:00 So if you don't want to listen to this bit, fair call, maybe

1:03:04 skip ahead 3 or 4 minutes because it's it's horrible.

1:03:08 Yeah, they were all stabbed. Sharon was actually stabbed in

1:03:15 her stomach. They tied them with their nylon

1:03:18 rope together, like all together, Yeah.

1:03:22 And then they. Yeah.

1:03:24 It was a free frenzy. It was apparently a frenzy.

1:03:26 The amount of stab wounds that each of them had was actually

1:03:30 unable to be counted because there were just so many and all

1:03:35 of them had wounds to their jugular.

1:03:38 So that was, I think, what killed all of them, essentially,

1:03:41 yeah. And then?

1:03:42 Although this is awful, so Sharon Tate they because they

1:03:49 hung her as well. She was actually alive when they

1:03:54 did do that. So that although her A cause of

1:03:58 death was the haemorrhaging, but she but the that she certainly

1:04:02 was still alive at the point of being hung up as well.

1:04:05 I read somewhere that her baby survived roughly 15 to 20

1:04:10 minutes after her death as well. I don't know how they know that.

1:04:14 No. But I mean, they stabbed her in

1:04:18 the stomach, so yeah, Oh my God. They stabbed her so frenzied

1:04:24 that actually one of her boobs was actually like disconnected

1:04:28 from her body. And it that's just purely from

1:04:30 all the the multiple stabbings in that sort of region area.

1:04:33 And it wasn't that they cut it off or anything.

1:04:36 They actually just from the stabbing of it.

1:04:39 But they also marked an X on her stomach where where her baby

1:04:45 would be just just. You can't even.

1:04:50 You cannot even imagine it, no. Utterly atrocious, atrocious.

1:04:56 They then used the blood to write things on the walls.

1:05:02 So there was other words, pigs, I think on the word there or it

1:05:08 was, I'm sorry. It was another one where they

1:05:10 wrote more, I think. So this one was just, I think it

1:05:12 was just pigs, another wall, the wall here.

1:05:14 And that that was done by Susan Atkins.

1:05:17 She claimed to have done that because there was another murder

1:05:20 by the, the, the family where there'd been an arrest of this

1:05:25 Bobby, Bobby Beausoleil and he'd been convicted of that.

1:05:31 So basically her thoughts were, well, supposedly that if she

1:05:34 wrote those words on the wall, which she also wrote on the wall

1:05:36 at that murder because she was present for it, but the cops

1:05:40 hadn't done her for it at all. She felt that if she did that at

1:05:44 this killing, then the police would would sort of go, oh,

1:05:47 can't be, can't be Bobby Beausoleil, who did that murder

1:05:50 because this it's the same person that connected them and

1:05:53 go, oh, well, he's in jail, so he can't have done this one.

1:05:55 So then they'd release him. That was her thought process on

1:05:59 that, but didn't. Quite pan out that way.

1:06:01 Pan out No. Yeah, Oh God.

1:06:06 So after this incident, when they've committed all this

1:06:10 atrocity at this house, they've left there and gone back to the

1:06:15 they were living at this Spawns ranch at the time, going back to

1:06:19 their master, Charles Manson and told him what they had done.

1:06:26 And he was not happy because they'd only come back with $100.

1:06:30 And that's. All that Sharon Tate had in her

1:06:32 wallet, apparently. Well, according to the police,

1:06:35 when they finally got to the house, there was a hell of a lot

1:06:38 more around. I reckon, I reckon they forgot.

1:06:41 Oh, the same to me. That wasn't there.

1:06:43 That actually wasn't their mindset.

1:06:45 But that, that was the thing that Charles Manson was like, so

1:06:49 fixated on was getting their money.

1:06:51 Yeah, getting money because they had none, because the family had

1:06:53 no money. They wanted to make this look

1:06:55 like a robbery and everything, but they also wanted to make it

1:06:58 look like that the Black Panthers had done it so that it

1:07:02 was this race thing. They were, you know, that these,

1:07:04 you know, that the Black Panthers had gone in and, and

1:07:07 done this murder so that the, that the white men would then be

1:07:10 angry that this had happened to all these white people.

1:07:12 And yeah, that was their their ideal.

1:07:15 So, yeah, it's insane, absolutely insane.

1:07:20 So since he wasn't happy with what had happened there the

1:07:24 following night he drove out again with them to.

1:07:27 I thought he went that night. No, it was the following night

1:07:32 was that was like midnight. Sort of stuff.

1:07:34 But I thought he went like in the early hours of that morning

1:07:37 and restaged the scene because the following night is when they

1:07:40 perpetrated the lust. Yeah, the love.

1:07:42 Bianca murder. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:07:43 The following night, they went out for the.

1:07:44 Look there. Yeah.

1:07:45 So on the night of this killing, though, he, Charles Manson, went

1:07:48 back there. Oh, yeah, He would have wiped

1:07:49 the scene. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:07:51 Sorry, I missed that. Yeah.

1:07:52 Yeah, and staged he. Left things he left a pair of

1:07:54 glasses there to sort of throw the cops, which it did that the

1:07:57 glasses they did follow it go down that track yeah they did so

1:07:59 it worked but. And he wiped things.

1:08:02 He picked up things that they'd left her that they shouldn't

1:08:04 have left. Yeah, he wiped down the scene.

1:08:06 Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, he, this is the thing he had

1:08:10 No Fear of, like walking into that property that like, oh, the

1:08:13 police would be on their way or, you know, that he just, oh, this

1:08:17 arrogance of, yeah, sadistic nature.

1:08:19 It's just gross. Yeah, so the on with the it's

1:08:23 they're called the Sharon, the Tate murders.

1:08:25 But at the Tate household, the Polanski Tate household, the

1:08:31 following morning, their housekeeper turned up for work

1:08:34 and she saw Stephen deceased in the car.

1:08:39 And she didn't go any further and called the police.

1:08:42 And. And that's how, how that sort of

1:08:45 whole scene was uncovered. Yeah.

1:08:47 And the police say that originally they arrested the

1:08:52 house, the groundskeeper who lived on site at the at the

1:08:55 guest house, because he was asleep the entire time and

1:09:02 didn't know anything had happened, despite the fact that

1:09:04 there were gunshots there would have, I mean, the sounds would

1:09:08 have been there would have been screaming.

1:09:10 It would have been horrific. Yeah, because I mean, Sharon

1:09:12 actually, when she begged for her baby's life, you know, like

1:09:15 she would have been. I can't even imagine.

1:09:17 It just makes my heart that she because she said just please let

1:09:20 me give birth to my baby like and.

1:09:22 Then you can kill me Do. Whatever you want to do.

1:09:23 Yeah. Because the thing was, I mean,

1:09:24 at 8 1/2 months pregnant, they could have literally cut that

1:09:26 baby out of her. And that baby could have lived

1:09:29 like my I just look, she just, she wanted her baby to live.

1:09:34 Yeah. And oh God, can't even.

1:09:37 It makes me. It actually makes me feel.

1:09:39 Sick. Absolutely.

1:09:40 The following night on the 10th of August in 1969 this time

1:09:46 Charles Manson participated in the murders of the Love

1:09:51 Bianca's. So there was Leno and Rosemary

1:09:55 Love Bianca. They lived in a middle class

1:09:59 suburb in LA. So this is not the Benedict

1:10:04 Canyon of LA where you've got celebrities and multi $1,000,000

1:10:09 homes. This is in a fairly middle class

1:10:12 lovely suburb. Like it's, you know, oh, he's a.

1:10:15 Supermarket executive He. Was really nice homes.

1:10:17 That's right, yeah. But it's not.

1:10:21 It's not what Sharon Tate level home looks like.

1:10:26 Yeah, So they break into the Labianca's home.

1:10:35 Charles ties them up this time. So he, he's a lot more, I don't

1:10:40 know, present and involved in this incident.

1:10:45 Well, I think murder he. Claims he did that, but he

1:10:48 actually, I don't think this is the thing.

1:10:50 He was so such a little man. Tiny in so many ways.

1:10:55 So many ways he was I think he he would big note himself like

1:11:00 I've gone and done this for you know, you do the rest, you know,

1:11:03 but from the accounts of the others there, he didn't do much

1:11:08 other than instruct them. I.

1:11:09 Think, yes, I think you're right.

1:11:11 So from what I can gather, the most accurate account of it is

1:11:15 that he did go in there and tie them up.

1:11:18 He said to them, we're just robbing you, we're not going to

1:11:21 kill you if you let us take whatever we want to take.

1:11:23 And they were like, Yep, Yep. You do what you want to do.

1:11:26 Yeah. Charles then disappeared.

1:11:28 He fucked off. Yeah.

1:11:30 And sent the disciples in, and they murdered both Rosemary and

1:11:36 Leno. Yeah.

1:11:38 This was reported a lot quicker to the police.

1:11:41 I actually don't know how that happened.

1:11:42 Do you know how that one happened?

1:11:43 No, I don't. But I know the police attended

1:11:46 far quicker than it's not like they were found.

1:11:51 Maybe someone heard something, Actually I'm not sure.

1:11:53 No, I didn't actually find anywhere that said that of how

1:11:56 that was. Yeah, how?

1:11:57 The police found out about it, but they did.

1:11:59 And they actually went down a path in investigating these

1:12:03 murders because Lena was actually a drug addict himself

1:12:08 and a gambling addict, right? And they thought that maybe he'd

1:12:13 gotten himself into a bit of trouble, and they were sort of

1:12:15 investigating things down that pathway.

1:12:17 Yeah, again in blood. Was it now?

1:12:23 Was it Patricia? No, yeah, it was Patricia

1:12:25 Kremwinkle this time. Yeah, she wrote in blood on

1:12:28 their fridge. Hilda Skelter.

1:12:32 Hilda Guild. So apparently she was literate

1:12:35 and because she was so young when she was indoctrinated into

1:12:38 this, so her education was, you know, at stunted at quite a a

1:12:44 low level. So she wrote HEALTER Skelter in

1:12:51 their blood on their fridge. Yeah, she also wrote Rise on the

1:12:54 Wall and Death to Pigs in the Blood.

1:12:59 Yeah, so gross. It was I'm.

1:13:03 Sorry, go. No, I was just going to I think

1:13:06 it was, I want to say that it was text that did this or it

1:13:09 might have been her. Actually, no, it was her.

1:13:11 She also grabbed a like A2 pronged like carving fork like

1:13:16 and she stabbed Leno in this in the stomach like 14 times with

1:13:21 it and then left it sitting like sticking out of his stomach.

1:13:24 She actually carved the word war into his stomach.

1:13:27 Yes. Yeah.

1:13:27 As well as that, the fork sticking out to God.

1:13:30 Oh God, yeah. So present at this, this

1:13:34 incident was Leslie van Houten, which I think I said Linda

1:13:37 earlier. Sorry, Leslie van Houten, Clem

1:13:40 Rogen. So there was another man at this

1:13:43 one as well, as well, as well as Tex Watson and Krenwinkle, I

1:13:49 don't believe was Susan wasn't at this one, was she?

1:13:53 Yeah, she was Susan. Was there she?

1:13:55 Was there Tex Watson, Susan Patricia Krenwinkle, Leslie Van

1:13:59 Houten and what's what was? Clem's surname, Grogan.

1:14:03 That's it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yes.

1:14:06 So just so yeah, these two incidents have happened.

1:14:09 And what I found really fascinating was that they've

1:14:12 both absolutely horrific crimes of like a frenzied stabbings.

1:14:18 They're both got similar words written on walls in blood,

1:14:22 happened one night after one night at park and the police

1:14:26 come out and say there's no link between them.

1:14:28 Totally unrelated, unrelated crimes.

1:14:31 They're so far from looking at who this would would have

1:14:34 infiltrate. It would have perpetrated these

1:14:36 crimes. It ain't funny.

1:14:37 They've got no idea. They're off on fairy land of

1:14:40 like, no idea what's going on. Here at this point, they had

1:14:44 when they when they made this announcement, yeah, they had the

1:14:47 groundskeeper in custody, yeah, which obviously he had, he had

1:14:50 nothing to do with it. And they also had already

1:14:53 started investigating, like any criminal links that Leno had.

1:14:58 Yeah. So they had their theories

1:14:59 already in in place. They also so off the mark.

1:15:03 Oh, so off the mark. They also had Roman Polanski

1:15:06 down as a suspect. Right.

1:15:09 For a for months, yeah, right. Even though he was proven to be

1:15:14 in London and he was granted because he was a Polish citizen,

1:15:19 he had to be granted an emergency visa to come home like

1:15:24 literally the day after these murders took place so that he

1:15:27 could come and obviously, yeah, deal with everything that had

1:15:30 happened. God.

1:15:31 So what the fuck were the police doing?

1:15:33 Oh, yeah. So they would never have worked

1:15:35 this out, I think, which is not actually what the Manson Family

1:15:38 want. They wanted them to pin it on

1:15:39 someone entirely different. They wanted to go down this

1:15:41 route of this Black Panthers. You know, so in order to try and

1:15:45 do that, what they did was they actually stole Rosemary's wallet

1:15:49 that night, on the night of the lesbian his murder.

1:15:51 Yeah. And they left it.

1:15:53 They went and dropped it in a black neighborhood, Yes, because

1:15:57 they wanted the police to find her wallet in the black

1:15:59 neighborhood and go, oh, black people have done this.

1:16:02 Yeah, yeah, this is black people.

1:16:03 'S fault because the other interesting thing is like in the

1:16:07 the Tate house household, Quincy Jones was supposed to be there

1:16:11 that night yes which. I'm and Mama Pass from the Mamas

1:16:14 and the Papas. She was meant to be there, too.

1:16:16 If they were, I wonder what they would have done with that, to

1:16:19 flip it, how they wanted to say that this was done, you know, by

1:16:24 black people against white people.

1:16:26 Like, I wonder how they could have flipped that if that had

1:16:28 been the case. You know, I don't know because I

1:16:31 don't think they would have. I don't think that the people

1:16:33 infiltrating it would have known to pull back or anything.

1:16:36 Oh, not at all. Like, they would have been on

1:16:38 this. Yeah.

1:16:39 Yeah. So.

1:16:40 Yeah. But so from this basically,

1:16:42 yeah, the cops have got no idea. And so unrelated entirely to

1:16:47 these murders, there's this, you know, hippie group that they're

1:16:50 that the cops are well aware of living out on this ranch at the

1:16:52 back of LA It's an old movie set they run.

1:16:55 It's a pretty weird ass place. Yeah.

1:16:58 They they run like horseback riding out of it, you know, But

1:17:02 it was used for movie sets and now it's sort of dilapidated.

1:17:04 And oh, it's, it's like ruined. Oh, I I find it really funny how

1:17:07 like watching that that doco where they were.

1:17:10 There was the clips of them back in in 1968, nineteen 67, talking

1:17:14 about living there and how and one of the girls is like, Oh

1:17:16 gosh, it was just it was so idyllic and it's so you know,

1:17:19 like beautiful here and and then like her, her now of 2017,

1:17:23 saying it was gross. It was there was rats

1:17:27 everywhere, it was sanitation nothing it was would have stunk

1:17:32 it would you know where like in her but in her LSD tripped out

1:17:35 mind it was the most. Nirvana.

1:17:38 Nirvana of places. Amazing.

1:17:40 Yeah. So they were all living out in

1:17:42 this place and they would doing horrific things.

1:17:45 They also had another ranch out in Death Valley which is

1:17:48 supposedly where they were going to go and live underground until

1:17:51 this war. Broke out.

1:17:52 Rise above. Then they'd rise from the

1:17:54 ground. Yeah.

1:17:55 So after these murders, they head out to Death Valley and

1:17:57 they're all, majority of them are out in Death Valley at this

1:17:59 point. And but the, they were stealing

1:18:02 vehicles and taking them back to the ranch, turning them into

1:18:06 June buggies and all these sorts of things.

1:18:08 There was also some a file that was lit and all these things

1:18:12 that were going on that the cops go out there and start raiding

1:18:15 the the ranch. There was actually 3 raids of

1:18:18 both Death Valley and and Spawn Ranch.

1:18:22 And on these occasions, various members of the cult were

1:18:24 arrested. So we get to a point where

1:18:28 Manson was actually arrested for arson for this fire head lit

1:18:32 Susan Atkins was arrested for vandalism and and theft, I

1:18:39 believe. And then other other members of

1:18:41 as well were also in prison for various other theft, theft,

1:18:45 vandalism, all these sorts of things.

1:18:46 So fairly petty sort of things. But they they needed to steal to

1:18:50 survive, because none of them they weren't.

1:18:52 None of them were. There was no legitimate.

1:18:54 Income there, no. So whilst they're in jail, Susan

1:18:57 Atkins, who was a very interesting person, she's in

1:19:02 prison with these women who were also known to the cult, you

1:19:06 know, things that they, they actually had been there at

1:19:08 various times. They weren't cult members, but

1:19:10 they were friends of the cult who just happened to be in

1:19:12 prison at the same time they. 'D kind of been there.

1:19:15 They'd hung around but hadn't fully drunk the Kool-aid.

1:19:18 Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

1:19:20 And so she just this Susan starts bragging about these

1:19:24 murders that they'd committed. And so from this, one of the

1:19:29 women in particular was saying, you shouldn't be saying any of

1:19:31 this, like this is going to get you into trouble.

1:19:33 You should shut your mouth. Another woman, though, who was

1:19:36 overhearing all of this, use it to her advantage.

1:19:39 Well, she was like, oh you beauty, keep going.

1:19:41 I want to know all of it so I can like reduce my sentence.

1:19:44 Exactly. So she did.

1:19:45 She went to the cops and she said, you know, you need to look

1:19:48 at Susan Atkins. I've got some information for

1:19:50 you. What can you do for me?

1:19:51 Yeah, yeah. Spilled the beans on what had

1:19:53 been said. So the cops then started like

1:19:56 looking into it. And yeah, there was, there was

1:19:59 evidence to show that obviously with them being arrested, there

1:20:01 was fingerprints on file and they were able to match them up

1:20:04 with fingerprints at the scene of particularly I think at the

1:20:08 Tate residence. There was also some other

1:20:13 physical evidence that was found.

1:20:15 Let me find it. But yeah, there was physical

1:20:19 evidence that was that was found at both the scenes mainly.

1:20:23 Tex Watson was then linked up with it with some physical,

1:20:27 physical evidence that that linked.

1:20:29 Are you talking like fingerprints?

1:20:30 There's definitely fingerprints, yeah.

1:20:32 Of certain people, I think. They only found Tex Watson's

1:20:35 fingerprints at one of the scenes anyway.

1:20:38 Yeah. I mean, I don't think that was

1:20:41 they weren't wearing gloves or anything like that.

1:20:43 I think I feel like they found more fingerprints at the

1:20:46 Labianca's scene because Charles Manson had actually gone tried

1:20:53 to clean up the Sharon Tate house, whereas nothing like that

1:20:57 had been done at the Labianca's At the Labianca's.

1:21:00 Oh, sorry, he's the weapon. Yeah, the gun linked him up.

1:21:03 So he actually found him in the possession of the the 22 calibre

1:21:07 gun. That who?

1:21:07 Had the gun. Tex Watson.

1:21:10 He didn't get rid of it. No, he still had it.

1:21:12 What a fucking idiot. Yeah, yeah.

1:21:14 So yeah, that was I would be linked up with.

1:21:17 The right, yeah. As well.

1:21:18 So there was definitely. So there was enough evidence

1:21:20 there to be like, Yep, Yep, you're done for guns and.

1:21:24 Then there were cult members who were and they had to literally

1:21:28 deprogram them to get this evidence.

1:21:31 There's one particular female who stepped up and came forward

1:21:34 with a lot of information for the police to be able to carry

1:21:38 through with this and be able to get them all on it.

1:21:41 And so. And she was very much shunned by

1:21:44 the rest of them. And, you know, they all hated

1:21:46 her for doing it. That they.

1:21:48 Yeah. So she came forward and was able

1:21:49 to give lots of information and background around what was set

1:21:52 up. And because she didn't actually,

1:21:53 she was given immunity because she didn't actually do any of

1:21:57 the murdering, but she was witness to these crimes.

1:22:01 So. Yeah, so.

1:22:04 It wasn't actually until 1971 that they were taken to trial.

1:22:08 So it's taken two years or a year and a half, nearly two

1:22:12 years, Yeah. In order for this to be brought

1:22:15 to trial. Manson's behaviour in being

1:22:22 interviewed and then throughout the trial process was bizarre.

1:22:27 He was, to say the least, such a strange, such a strange cat.

1:22:32 And it was very sort of theatrical in the way he'd be

1:22:35 like and then like. He.

1:22:37 It was, it was, it was like he was, it was performative.

1:22:40 It was he was, he was putting on a show for every, for anyone and

1:22:45 everyone who wanted to to listen to his rantings and ravings.

1:22:48 Yeah. He was sentenced to death.

1:22:54 And that was actually then commuted to a life sentence in

1:22:58 1972 when California got rid of the death penalty.

1:23:01 Yeah, so Charles Manson spent the rest of his life in prison.

1:23:08 Yep. The other women who were

1:23:11 convicted? And Tex Watson, So Tex Watson,

1:23:14 they all got life sentences eventually.

1:23:16 They were all given death penalty to begin with.

1:23:18 And obviously when that was found to be, what do you call

1:23:21 it, like not constitutional, I don't know what they how they

1:23:25 decided it. Wasn't, I think they just

1:23:26 abolished the death penalty in California only yeah, in 1972.

1:23:31 So yeah, their sentences were then commuted to.

1:23:33 Life yeah yeah to so they've got life sentences but they.

1:23:36 That also meant they were a bit touched to parole minimums as

1:23:40 well which obviously the death penalty there's not so yeah so

1:23:44 that became a bit interesting yeah.

1:23:46 Tex Watson was still in prison, was still in prison.

1:23:49 He it was up for parole 18 times and denied every single time.

1:23:55 But he's still alive and he's up for parole again in the next 12

1:23:59 months ish. I want to say he's got like a

1:24:02 parole date for later this year potentially.

1:24:05 Interesting, yeah. What are the chances he's going

1:24:08 to get it though? I think the same to none because

1:24:09 I think in prison he's pretty horrific.

1:24:11 Yeah, he's, he's perpetrated crimes in prison and that's why

1:24:14 he's been denied parole 18 times.

1:24:16 It's not only due to the severity.

1:24:18 And you know how horrific the murders were that he that he

1:24:21 committed. Absolutely.

1:24:22 He's actually then gone on to further perpetrate crimes.

1:24:25 And he's certainly not a model prisoner by any stretch of the

1:24:29 imagination. So I think it's very unlikely

1:24:31 that he will ever get out of prison.

1:24:33 And he's a really old man now, like. 75 I think he is.

1:24:38 But he looks old, like prison. Has prison done good things to

1:24:42 me, There's a good. Skin care there.

1:24:44 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Patricia Cranwinkle is still

1:24:48 alive and in prison, and she's actually the longest

1:24:50 incarcerated female in inmate in California.

1:24:53 Yeah. So I think she's like 72.

1:24:56 Yes, sorry, 72. Yep.

1:24:58 Linda Van Houten, we'll go back one before her, actually.

1:25:02 Susan Atkins. Sorry.

1:25:03 So she has passed away? Yes.

1:25:06 So she lived out her life in prison.

1:25:09 She died in prison. She died in prison so but now

1:25:11 Linda Van Houten, she was actually very interesting and

1:25:14 Leslie found Leslie Van Houten. I've actually that's where I've

1:25:17 done it. I've written Linda in my last

1:25:21 last minute late night. Oh yeah, right.

1:25:23 Research writing Leslie Van Houten.

1:25:25 She was actually awarded, awarded 2 retrials for her her

1:25:29 convictions, but and the second one occurred in 1978 and that

1:25:33 resulted in still a conviction of two counts of murder and was

1:25:36 given minimum seven years to life.

1:25:39 Now, people were really concerned about this because as

1:25:41 I was doing the retrial, even though she was gonna, they were

1:25:43 fairly convinced she was gonna be convicted.

1:25:45 Still, it could still mean that time spent in prison meant that

1:25:49 she would walk straight out even though she was convicted.

1:25:52 Yeah, so, but turns out no. So she has spent 2053 years in

1:25:58 jail. So far she has been rejected for

1:26:01 parole 24 times. The now this last one though

1:26:07 where she was the parole board actually in her last two.

1:26:12 So the parole board awarded her parole.

1:26:16 However, the governor, who is still the the governor at the

1:26:18 moment, Hegsome, is that right? He he was the one who actually

1:26:22 said oh, no, no, no, no. That's nice of you to say that,

1:26:25 parole board, but no, I'm gonna say no.

1:26:27 Yep, I didn't realise that a governor had that authority.

1:26:30 I mean, I knew they could excuse prisoners, but I didn't realise

1:26:32 they could keep prisoners in. Yeah, I would have.

1:26:34 I thought that once a parole board made a.

1:26:36 Decision like if you're out, that's kind of it you're.

1:26:38 Out, but no, so yeah, he he said.

1:26:41 Nah, back in you go. So she didn't get that one.

1:26:43 And that was, like the day before she was.

1:26:46 Yeah. So she had two weeks of thinking

1:26:48 she was getting out. Yeah.

1:26:49 And then he went there. So then again, the last one, she

1:26:54 was granted parole by the parole board again.

1:26:56 And Hexworth again said Nope, Nope, go back in.

1:27:01 She appealed that and the appeal board upheld that she should be

1:27:05 released. So in 2023, Yep, she walked

1:27:08 free. Yep.

1:27:09 So she is out and about living her life.

1:27:14 There's been no word that she has done anything and I hope by

1:27:17 this stage in prison she has been.

1:27:19 Deprogrammed. She's in her 70s.

1:27:22 Yeah. You know, she's lived pretty

1:27:24 much all of her adult life 53. Years in jail.

1:27:26 God, I mean, what life do you have outside?

1:27:30 I guess we send people to prison with the view to reform.

1:27:34 Yeah, I know that is impossible in some cases.

1:27:38 Let's hope that in in Leslie's case, that's what's happened

1:27:42 because she's had her whole adult life really to think about

1:27:47 the things she's done, to understand that.

1:27:51 And I mean, part of her appeal and the reason that she just

1:27:55 wanted to go to trial again in this late, late 70s was because

1:27:59 she was so young. She was fed LSD.

1:28:04 She was brainwashed essentially into following Charles Manson

1:28:08 without having an independent thought.

1:28:11 Yeah. And so, look, I can almost

1:28:14 understand why she didn't feel culpable.

1:28:18 And if we go back, she was the one who will talked about where

1:28:22 she was sent to, you know, find who was in the house, all those

1:28:25 sort of things and who said, Oh, no, no, no one else here keep

1:28:28 let's. Keep She didn't want to do it.

1:28:29 She. Didn't want to do it.

1:28:30 So a little bit more remorse than others.

1:28:33 Whereas I would say the rest of them, there's no, there was 0

1:28:35 remorse. Yeah.

1:28:36 From Susan Atkins, you know, and I mean Charles Manson, holy

1:28:40 shit. I mean, in jail he's been a

1:28:42 problem. He has he, I think he, he's been

1:28:46 reminded like, I mean, sorry, there's been 108 cases of him

1:28:51 being involved in things in prison, including in bringing

1:28:55 drugs to the jail. He's been mostly in like

1:28:59 isolated sections of the jail. Yeah, somehow he has managed to

1:29:04 work the system and managed to get drugs brought in and all

1:29:07 these sorts of things. You can go and see an interview

1:29:09 of him when he was. It was the first interview he

1:29:12 did after being imprisoned, and they allowed a camera crew to

1:29:16 come in there and film him. Yeah.

1:29:19 I think if you go and watch it, you can sort of see the state of

1:29:23 mind that he was in. He was just, Oh, my God, just

1:29:30 crazy. But then I can also understand

1:29:32 how people were almost drawn to him in a way, because some of

1:29:37 this, as I said before, some of the stuff he said, you're like,

1:29:39 oh, yeah, OK, that kind of actually makes sense.

1:29:42 And yes, it's rambling and yes, it's crazy.

1:29:45 And yes, then he goes off on all these bizarro tangents.

1:29:48 But like, maybe people would take that one thing that

1:29:51 resonated with them and kind of go with it.

1:29:53 You know, You've got nothing else.

1:29:55 You're crazy. What else you got?

1:29:56 What do you got to lose? You might as well follow the

1:29:58 crazy dude who, yeah, might give you a, you know, some LSD or

1:30:01 some harder, harder shit, you know, crazy.

1:30:04 We'll just smuggle it in. Exactly.

1:30:06 But like, I mean, so crazy that the people followed him were

1:30:08 like, you know, when in in during the court hearing where

1:30:11 he was denied to be to represent himself.

1:30:13 Yeah, the next day he shows up in court with, I mean, ex carved

1:30:17 into his his forehead. And then what do his followers

1:30:19 do? They all cover, they all do the

1:30:21 same thing. But he didn't.

1:30:23 It's like, Oh yeah, I don't get it.

1:30:25 And I think I think what we've spoken about a cult on the show

1:30:30 on the show before. And I believe at that time we

1:30:33 were like, we do not understand how people like I, I get that

1:30:38 people who join cults are generally quite vulnerable.

1:30:41 They're looking for something, they're looking for purpose,

1:30:43 they're looking for somebody to follow.

1:30:44 They're probably lost in their own lives.

1:30:47 But this to the extreme to which people go, like you say, carving

1:30:53 and like literally scarring yourself.

1:30:55 Yeah. Yeah, I mean, they shake their

1:30:57 heads too, which I mean that. I mean, shaving your head that

1:30:59 that, whatever. Yeah, but they're carving it

1:31:02 into your head like that's full on.

1:31:05 It's so full on it. It just, that's the stuff that

1:31:08 blows my mind. Yeah, yeah.

1:31:12 So obviously Charles Manson was he was convicted of the murders,

1:31:17 but conspiracy to murder as well.

1:31:19 Yeah, because he there wasn't sort of the evidence of the fact

1:31:21 of him actually committing the murders.

1:31:23 However, in jail he has admitted that he two other prisoners.

1:31:27 He's boasted as if he has killed at least 12 other people.

1:31:31 Yeah, and up to 24 like as in the total #30?

1:31:35 5 is 35. They.

1:31:36 Yeah, there's a number, there's a list and a mile long of people

1:31:40 that they believe, you know, that he could be connected to or

1:31:44 at least family members directed by him to have been murdered.

1:31:51 They were just the. The list is so long it's

1:31:53 ridiculous. I know.

1:31:53 Do you want me to read out the names?

1:31:54 I like who they are, but it's just insane the and when you

1:32:00 read them there are certainly strong connections as to how

1:32:03 they were linked to the family. I know.

1:32:06 Yeah, read a few. Yeah, OK, well, so Nancy Warren

1:32:08 and Clyde Delaney. Nancy was 64 Clyda sorry, 24.

1:32:15 They were both found near in in California at a antique store

1:32:20 owned by by Nancy. They were both beaten and

1:32:24 strangled to death with 36 leather thongs.

1:32:28 After the family members were arrested, they became suspects

1:32:31 when it was discovered that members of the family had been

1:32:34 in the in the area at the time of the murders.

1:32:37 However, no one in the family was ever charged.

1:32:40 What did you just say they were? Something about leather thongs?

1:32:43 What was? That yeah, they were they sorry.

1:32:46 They were strangled to death with them with 36 leather

1:32:48 thongs. As in like flip flops or?

1:32:51 G strings. Well, yeah, maybe G strings.

1:32:54 Oh, I don't know. Yeah, right.

1:32:59 Sorry, sorry. John Phillip Haut was 22, was an

1:33:04 Ohio native who had moved to California and met Manson in the

1:33:07 summer of 69. He joined the family amongst the

1:33:11 and amongst the group was arrested in October in one of

1:33:14 the raids. I think he was a really good

1:33:16 musician, this kid. Yeah.

1:33:18 Is that right? That's how he was drawn into it.

1:33:20 I think so, yes. It was definitely associated

1:33:23 with them. But he suddenly found a gun in a

1:33:25 room, picked it up and promptly shot himself while attempting a

1:33:29 game of Russian roulette, which is what the family members.

1:33:32 Yep, explained it to being as the police for.

1:33:34 To the police, yeah. However, you would expect that

1:33:37 if you were playing Russian roulette that you would pick up

1:33:40 that gun and find that there was 1 shell and no bullets and no

1:33:43 bullets left in it. Yeah, it was the complete

1:33:45 opposite. It had however shell casings in

1:33:48 it however, meaning I'm not good with guns.

1:33:51 But if it was another 5 bullets left in it and the 6th 1 was

1:33:55 shot so the gun was fully loaded, there was no Russian

1:33:58 roulette about it. So there was witnesses to the

1:34:03 death. It's always been considered to

1:34:05 be him that he that he murdered. He he committed suicide, Yeah.

1:34:10 And killed himself. However, there's strong belief

1:34:12 that it was set up to go down that way.

1:34:14 Yep. REIT Hovertson, 19, a young

1:34:21 woman found stabbed to death in 1969.

1:34:25 Her body was found with over a hundreds, 150 stab wounds from a

1:34:30 pen knife to her neck and upper body.

1:34:32 Which is where Manson had told them to stab people and lots of

1:34:38 defense wounds in her hands. I don't remember reading.

1:34:40 About she'd been disposed along Mulholland Dr. Some witness

1:34:44 claimed to have seen a woman named Sherry.

1:34:47 Yes, right. Who matched the description of

1:34:51 them in the Manson family, but they couldn't ever connect her

1:34:54 up entirely. Yes.

1:34:55 Yes. Yeah.

1:34:56 So yeah, I'm definitely, I mean. The least?

1:34:59 Is. Basically endless, isn't it?

1:35:02 Oh, it literally. Goes on and on and on.

1:35:03 Yeah. And so that's like you've

1:35:05 probably got the list there of the potentially 35 who who are

1:35:08 more than likely, you know, perpetrate murders were more

1:35:11 than likely perpetrated by the family.

1:35:12 But then if you go online, you can find hundreds and hundreds

1:35:16 of cases where people are like, even if it's like a copycat

1:35:19 style thing, yeah, of very similar trademarks and all of

1:35:23 that sort of stuff. So it's actually unknown how

1:35:27 much devastation these people or this cult has actually caused.

1:35:32 Yeah, I mean, I certainly don't think that walking into the Tate

1:35:37 Polanski residence was the first time those people had done

1:35:41 anything like that. Agreed.

1:35:44 It, it was, there was certainly a build up to it in terms of his

1:35:46 training of them as well. You know, as I said there, there

1:35:49 was, you know, these training sessions on how to use a, a, a

1:35:52 knife. There was training sessions on

1:35:54 how to, you know, hide in bushes and all these sorts of things.

1:35:57 Then they would go out, he would send them out to do robberies.

1:36:00 You know, it was, it did, it did escalate, you know, slowly over

1:36:04 a very short period of time. And I can, I dare say there were

1:36:08 many, many murders that were preceding.

1:36:10 It proceeding, do you think, do you think that because Sharon

1:36:13 Tate was Sharon Tate that this is kind of, you know, I think

1:36:18 gave given them the notoriety? Absolutely.

1:36:21 Yeah, Yeah. I think that linked to the fact

1:36:23 of like, you know, that in a way it was more of a massacre in

1:36:26 that there was five people killed at one in one time and

1:36:29 then very quickly followed with a very similar sort of style in

1:36:31 the next. They could pin those ones on

1:36:34 them very. Easily.

1:36:35 I think it's worth noting just really quickly as well that no

1:36:38 one was ever convicted of the murder of Sharon and Roman's

1:36:41 baby. No, I would literally gonna say

1:36:43 the same thing. That really irks me.

1:36:45 I think today would be different for sure.

1:36:47 I believe the law has changed, particularly a baby that far

1:36:50 along. That's I mean, as we say, if she

1:36:53 had, she could have given birth that day and that baby would be

1:36:56 100% viable and would have lived and survived.

1:36:59 Absolutely. So that should have been, it

1:37:03 should have been an eighth person added to the convictions,

1:37:07 to be really honest. Yeah, agreed.

1:37:09 Yeah, I think that was an oversight of the law at the

1:37:12 time. At the time, yeah, definitely,

1:37:14 yeah. Crazy.

1:37:17 As we said at the start of this, we could probably talk about

1:37:24 this for days and days. I've actually just realized I've

1:37:27 got 2 pages pages. I've got 2 pages of notes here.

1:37:30 I haven't even, we haven't even spoken about.

1:37:32 But look, if you want to know more, there is obviously plenty

1:37:35 more out there. We have given the highest of

1:37:38 high level overviews of what's going on of, of what happened.

1:37:43 You've done a great job, Meg, as always.

1:37:45 Oh. You.

1:37:46 You go, girl. You are amazing, love it.

1:37:49 Next week we are actually delving into another huge case,

1:37:53 Snow town going. Back to Adelaide.

1:37:55 Adelaide, we have quite a few Adelaide cases we have coming

1:38:00 up, so for those of you in the area, stay tuned.

1:38:05 Yeah, I'm sure you know a lot about Snowtown already.

1:38:07 For those of you who don't, TuneIn next week and and learn

1:38:11 all about it. Yeah, it's been regularly been

1:38:13 updates recently due to that, so.

1:38:15 Yeah, yeah. My dad actually asked.

1:38:18 That was the 11 case. He's asked me, are you going to

1:38:20 recover that? And I'm like, yeah, we will.

1:38:22 So, Dad, next week. Dad AKA Ronitals.

1:38:26 Yep, Ronitals one. Would dad be older than

1:38:30 Ronitals? They'd be very similar in age I

1:38:31 think. Doppelganger.

1:38:33 Yep, totally. All right.

1:38:35 Thank you everybody for joining us.

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1:38:56 and we're looking forward to seeing you all next week.

1:38:58 For sure, stay curious, crime besties.

1:39:01 Bye.