Episode 30 - Karlie and Khandalyce (The Lost Girls)

0:15 Welcome back to crime besties to episode 30 of two crime besties

0:20 did. You get the name, did you?

0:23 Look it, I was like, welcome back to crime besties and then

0:25 I'm like to another episode, two crime besties.

0:29 You'd think I'd be a little more over it all over it by now, but

0:32 I'm not. So anyway, welcome to episode

0:35 30. I always feel like when we when

0:37 we reach a decade milestone, we're doing really well.

0:41 So totally again, cheers to us. Yay.

0:45 Well, I read somewhere recently that like most podcasts, don't

0:48 make it past episode 30 and those that make it to 20 are

0:52 like here to stay. Oh, wait, so Wednesday, I think

0:56 we've already decided that yeah. And thanks to everybody for your

1:00 amazing feedback. We so this is actually we're

1:03 recording this very, very early January 2025, our first

1:08 recording session of 2025 actually.

1:10 And I think this will be episode. 3 won't.

1:12 Yeah, so drove back of the year. Yeah, but we were just

1:16 commenting that we have had so much lovely feedback over the

1:19 holidays. So we can see that a lot of you

1:21 have gone back and been listening to old episodes or

1:24 maybe catch up on episodes that you've missed.

1:26 Yeah. So I really, really, we really,

1:28 really appreciate that. And I love there's a few extra

1:32 comments coming through like on on Spotify or on socials and

1:36 that too around some older episodes, which is so good.

1:38 It's it's nice to sort of go back and refresh on those and

1:41 have a banter about that, yeah. It's great.

1:44 In particular, I'd like to shout out Nudes.

1:47 Nudes. Nudes has commented a couple of

1:49 times and they're both lovely, lovely comments.

1:51 So thank you so much and thank you to everybody who comments

1:55 and shares and likes. We, we see them all.

1:58 We can't necessarily always reply to everything, but we try

2:01 our very, very best. They're finding that it's like

2:03 it's getting harder now because there's more like it's, yeah,

2:06 it's a good problem to have that damn sure that's.

2:09 It on Christmas Day, one of my cousins, Nick, he came up to me

2:14 and he's like, I actually did not even know you had a podcast

2:17 because he doesn't have any social media or anything like

2:19 that. And he's a he's a school

2:22 teacher. So he's on holidays at the

2:24 moment and he's like, I absolutely love true crime

2:28 podcasts. I've already subscribed and I'm

2:30 gonna give it a listen. So Nick, if you're listening,

2:32 thanks. Thank you for joining us.

2:35 Yeah, we've had that a bit over the summer holidays with a few

2:39 catch ups with various people. I was at a family ish sort of

2:43 gathering and someone started up to me that was a friend of my my

2:46 brothers and stuff, and they're like listening to your podcast

2:49 and I'm like, oh, OK, hi. Yeah, so it's kind of people I

2:53 don't know necessarily, but you know, family friends who have

2:55 been telling fit, you know, friends who have, you know,

2:57 said, you know, I'm into true crime podcast and have passed it

2:59 on to other people and you know, yeah, so it's kind of nice to

3:03 have people come up and kind of go.

3:04 I've been listening and yeah, that's really what really

3:07 positive feedback. So loving that love.

3:09 Thank you. How are your summer holidays

3:11 going so far? Yeah, you have a nice Christmas.

3:14 I know for everyone listening this will be a little bit

3:16 delayed, but you know, the Christmas New Year period was

3:19 good. Yeah, no, really good.

3:20 We had a really lovely New Year's, just myself and the

3:23 boys. We went to a nice hotel and

3:25 really nice fireworks display that we got to watch out the

3:27 window. And yeah, it's just really nice

3:29 quality time with the kids, you know, so really good.

3:31 And I enjoyed that. And Christmas has been amazing

3:35 with lots of food and lots of, you know, catching up with

3:37 people. We've had visitors from

3:39 overseas, you know, that we haven't seen in like 13 years,

3:42 which was just like, you know, it was really lovely that we

3:45 could sort of like kicked off as if we had.

3:46 There hasn't been that kind of space in between.

3:48 So and we've all got kids now that we're all similar ages that

3:51 we're all just like, they just got along so well, so quickly.

3:53 And although God, it's embarrassing, my youngest, who

3:56 is the social butterfly, I said to them in the car on the way

4:00 home that night, I'm like, I loved how, you know, you guys

4:03 just embraced them. You know, you were like really

4:05 friendly really quickly and bring us what's because I've

4:07 worked it out. Mom, how do you make friends is

4:09 you just make them laugh, which is really nerve wracking.

4:13 So like, oh God. So he said.

4:16 His tag hashtag class clown. Oh yeah, here he comes.

4:19 Yeah, he's so he is funny. He's.

4:22 Very. So he decided that immediately

4:23 because his little niece, a little, my little niece, his

4:26 cousin had these tattoos that she was like, oh, let's put

4:30 these, you know, little tattoo things on.

4:31 And so he was like, oh, I'll break the ice, you know, I'll be

4:34 the funny kid. And he put one on his face and

4:36 like he's they laughed, mum. And so then we're just friends.

4:39 Oh, that's gorgeous. I love that kids.

4:41 So it's so easy. Do you remember being a kid and

4:44 being like that? Like you'd go to some, you'd

4:45 meet somebody and they could be besties in no time.

4:48 Yeah, yeah, as. An adult, it's so much harder

4:50 to. Make so many more complicated.

4:53 Complications to things and you also know what you like and

4:55 don't like when you're an adult. This is it, Yeah, Yeah.

4:58 No fucks to give, Yeah? Yeah, no, you're not my people,

5:02 so. Yep, Yep, definitely.

5:04 Yeah. So that was really gorgeous.

5:06 Yeah. How about you?

5:07 We had a lovely Christmas at another one of my cousins houses

5:13 and we hosted a big Christmas Eve do here at our place which I

5:18 just love doing it. It's my favorite event of the

5:22 year. I just say the food was amazing.

5:24 The meat in particular. Yeah, he was very Yeah, he was

5:28 really proud of the meat. He did like this.

5:30 I don't know if anyone cares, but he did this full pack of

5:34 brisket, whatever that means. It was it was 9 I.

5:37 Am not a meat eater like by any means.

5:39 I legit could if I was almost like gonna have bacon.

5:41 I would be vegetarian. So but I literally beat into

5:46 that and was like Oh my God. Yeah, it was really, it was.

5:49 It was probably the best one he's ever done.

5:50 Yeah. All right.

5:51 Yeah. Yeah, it was.

5:52 Really. Good.

5:53 I feel special. Yeah.

5:54 So we did that. And then a couple of days after

5:57 Christmas, Peter had said, Hey, how about we go camping for a

6:01 couple of nights in that dull week where we normally do

6:04 nothing and at the time. Where I call it airport rules.

6:07 Yeah, airport rules. Total airport rules.

6:09 Anything goes. And it literally you'll spend

6:12 $100 to. I saw a meme it was like spend

6:15 $100 to get a coffee delivered. Sure, money means nothing in the

6:19 airport. Yeah, cereal at 10:00 PM and a

6:21 wine at 10:00 AM Why not? Absolutely.

6:24 So we packed up and went camping for two nights not far from

6:30 where we live, about an hour and a half away.

6:31 And you're such the camping type.

6:33 I fucking hate it. I hate camping.

6:36 The boys love it. So I'm like, now I'm gonna grin

6:38 and bear it. So we found this place called

6:40 this website. My husband found it called hip

6:43 camp and it's people who put they list their own properties

6:47 on there right. And you can just like.

6:49 Airbnb for campers. Yeah, basically, yeah, right.

6:52 And you so you don't have to camp with riffraff.

6:55 You're guaranteed a spot. You know all that did.

6:57 You bring your. Kids.

6:59 Oh yeah, yeah. And the dog, actually.

7:02 I love the dog and had a ball. It was actually great and it had

7:05 a flushable toilet at the house that you could access from an

7:09 outside room sort of thing. So at least there was a

7:11 flushable toilet. We saw a fair hike away.

7:13 By the sounds of things, it. Was only about 50 meters away.

7:16 Oh, OK, right. And there was a river there.

7:18 The kids were, you know, just loving life.

7:21 The dog loved herself sick there.

7:23 That's so gorgeous. So look as far as when we were

7:27 by the time we got there and set up the actual camping bit I was

7:32 actually semi OK with. I actually think I might have

7:35 even enjoyed myself. What?

7:37 Yeah. We were camping in New G for

7:39 anybody who knows Victoria, and there's a really good pub in New

7:42 G so the next day we went to New G pub and my dad rode his

7:46 motorbike there and met us for lunch, which is awesome.

7:50 Yeah, I had maybe one too many wine.

7:53 No, that's so not you. You.

7:55 Probably wouldn't, yeah. Wouldn't guess it, No.

7:58 So it was really good. It was really good fun.

8:00 But then it's bookended by so much work.

8:03 So it was like a day preparation to pack the car, pack everything

8:06 we needed, And then when we got back, I counted no fewer than 9

8:11 loads of washing. Oh my God.

8:13 Unfortunately, the first night we were there, it rained.

8:15 It wasn't heavy, and we were well protected.

8:18 We had all the gear that we needed.

8:20 Yeah, but everything got wet and muddy and so literally

8:24 everything we took needed washing.

8:25 Yeah, thankfully when we got back, it was really warm, so

8:28 everything dried really quickly. But it took a good couple of

8:32 days to wash and dry everything and put pack everything away,

8:37 and then it was time to pack away all the Christmas stuff, so

8:40 I'm just done. Oh.

8:41 Yeah, no, you need a holiday from your holiday.

8:42 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Unless you have a little bit

8:44 more time before you get back. To it.

8:45 Yeah, I've got another week now before I go back to work.

8:47 So happy with that. But Oh no, that's yeah,

8:51 camping's not my thing. Nah, it's not.

8:54 It's not mine either. My kids love it and Peter's

8:57 happy to do it with them and without me.

9:00 So which is great. Most of the time I let that

9:03 happen a bit of quality time with Dad.

9:05 Yes, yeah, that's good bonding time.

9:08 Yeah, I think so. Yeah, we'll go with that anyway.

9:10 Yeah, should we get into today's episode?

9:14 Oh, let's I'm ready for this one to like exit my brain.

9:17 I'll have to be really honest like it's it's hard this one to

9:21 have in there. So I.

9:22 Think we should probably maybe state a bit of a warning today,

9:25 definitely this episode. So we're talking about Carly

9:29 Pierce Stevenson and Kandelice Pierce.

9:33 This episode got me. I was in tears researching this

9:36 yesterday. It's there are so many really,

9:41 truly awful things that happened to these girls.

9:45 And look, we'll try and warn you when we're about to say

9:48 something that's particularly awful, but if this is something

9:52 that you don't feel you can listen to at the moment, please

9:54 skip ahead because, yeah. Well, we'll be obviously talking

9:57 about children as well-being murdered.

9:58 So that's. Children being murdered and

10:00 sexual, sexual assaults against, you know, women and children.

10:04 So if that's not something you can listen to, please.

10:08 Skip. Yeah, look after yourself, yeah.

10:10 Yeah, for sure. Because yeah, it's been been a

10:13 tough one to, to look into. I've I've found.

10:15 Yeah, yeah. It's really heavy.

10:18 Really, really heavy. So Carly Jade Pearce was born on

10:22 the 7th of August in 1988 in Alice Springs.

10:26 Her dad was named Bruce Pearce and her mum was Colleen

10:31 Stevenson. And they weren't married at the

10:35 time when when Carly was born. And I think they, their

10:39 relationship, I think was very in its infancy when they kind of

10:43 got together. And they didn't last very long.

10:46 After Carly was born, Colleen, who is Carly's mom, then

10:50 remarried a man by the name of Scott Povey, who became

10:55 obviously Carly's stepdad in 1995.

10:59 And by for all intents and purposes, Scott was Carly's dad.

11:06 Yeah. They had a very good

11:07 relationship. They did.

11:09 He was a truck driver, a long distance truck driver, so he

11:12 used to commute. He used to drive trucks from

11:14 Adelaide to Alice Springs and back.

11:16 Yeah, he actually did a lot around Australia, but I think

11:18 he's his main route. Yeah, that was his main route.

11:21 And sometimes Carly would go along with him on these long

11:24 haul journeys and they'd camp in the Outback and they just had a

11:28 really lovely bond. And he he says to this day that

11:32 he loves her like his daughter. There's.

11:35 I know I read of like the typical kind of stuff, you know,

11:38 of like teenagers and that sort of thing, you know, having

11:40 conflicts with parents, but there was certainly nothing that

11:43 was untoward in terms of family life.

11:45 It was very much a, a typical family of, you know, yes, a a

11:50 blended family, but one that very much worked.

11:52 Yeah, there's a funny story that I that I heard where apparently

11:58 Scott was having a bit of a go at at Kali for having a messy

12:02 room when she was a teenager. Yeah, and he'd just had enough.

12:04 So he's like, I'm gonna throw all this shit out in the front

12:07 lawn because this is just ridiculous.

12:09 I've threatened that before, yeah.

12:11 And so and so he like, you know, he's throwing all this stuff out

12:15 and she was at home and she's like bring, trying to bring it

12:17 all in. And, you know, as this kerfuffle

12:20 sort of ensued, they both saw the humour in it and just

12:24 started laughing. And he's like, well, I couldn't

12:25 be angry at her anymore, could I?

12:27 You know, like, it was just a funny situation.

12:29 Yeah. And she promised it on that day.

12:32 She's like, I promise. I'm gonna keep my room really

12:34 nice for you now. Never happened.

12:36 No, no, of course not. Were you a messy teenager?

12:41 Not particularly. I would.

12:42 My mum probably disagrees with me.

12:43 I don't. Know I was terrible.

12:45 Oh, really? Yeah, I can't imagine you being

12:47 me. I.

12:47 Know like my house now. I like things neat and tidy.

12:50 Yeah, but I know I was foul. I was.

12:53 I think I was. On, you know, average.

12:55 I wouldn't say I was overly messy, but I wasn't like a neat

12:59 freak either. Did you have, like, clothes on

13:00 the floor and stuff? Oh yeah.

13:02 OK. And I was probably about on par

13:03 with that. Yeah, yeah, I've always said,

13:05 like my mum was always surprised by how like how neat and stuff I

13:10 kept my workplace. Like and I'd talk about how

13:13 organised I'd be at work 'cause that was not how I behaved at

13:16 home. Like yeah, So there was

13:17 definitely a difference, OK. Yeah.

13:20 Yeah. But your house now is lovely.

13:23 Oh, is it? Yeah, it's always, I mean, it

13:25 gives me anxiety when things aren't neat and tidy.

13:28 And my boys realise that now, like, and they're starting to

13:32 learn to put things away, like, because I just can't handle it

13:34 because it does, like it does, it sets me off.

13:36 Yeah. Yeah.

13:37 But that's great. You know, that's another therapy

13:39 session. We'll.

13:40 Do that another day. Sorry I've just gone on a

13:43 tangent. We're like 3 seconds into.

13:45 Here God, here we are. In 1992, Ali's brother Luke was

13:50 born. So he was her half brother and

13:53 so he's his dad is Scott. Even though he, Colleen and

13:56 Scott actually married a few years later, he was born out of

13:59 wedlock. But but again, I think Carly and

14:05 Luke got along really well. I've, I've heard him speak in

14:07 the media. There's not a lot of lot of

14:10 videos or necessarily interviews of the family in this case

14:14 because. They care very, very quiet about

14:17 all of this, which I think to their credit in terms of, you

14:20 know, getting to the truth of things.

14:23 They came out later with, with, with, you know, a little bit

14:25 here and there, but they weren't that weren't one of those

14:27 families who are front and center of all this.

14:29 Absolutely not. They were just a very quiet and

14:31 unassuming family. Yeah, and you know, salt to the

14:35 earth type of people. Yeah, they've lived in Alice

14:37 Springs all their lives. I mean, you've got to be like,

14:39 you know, pretty straightforward and easy going to live in, out

14:43 in the Outback like that. I think, you know, you're not a

14:46 Sidious liquor, that's for sure. No, not.

14:48 Not at all. Not at.

14:50 All good people, hard workers. Like that.

14:53 Yeah, absolutely. I think they absolutely were.

14:58 Kandelise Kiara Pierce was born on the 19th of June in 2006 to

15:04 Carly and a boyfriend that she'd had for not very long, but he

15:10 wasn't all that interested in being a dad.

15:12 But Carly decided she was 18 years of age, I believe.

15:15 When, Well, when Carly was born. Oh, sorry.

15:17 When Kandelise was born, she was 18.

15:21 Yeah, and she was really excited to be a mum too, like she was

15:26 really. Into it, her auntie said that

15:28 she'd always wanted to be a mum. You know she's one of those

15:31 kids. Yeah, she just fell into it and

15:33 was, you know, from all the family accounts of like of, of

15:37 Carly as a mum was all very positive.

15:40 The only negative comments around her being a mother came

15:42 from particularly to people that we'll mention later like that's.

15:45 Right. And we'll mention that when it

15:46 when it comes. Yeah.

15:49 Because Carly was so young when she had Kandalis.

15:53 Now I'll just spell Kandalis for everyone because it's it's one

15:57 of those names when I when I hear the name, it's not spelt

16:01 the way I think it's spelled. So Karly is actually Karl i.e.

16:05 and Kandalis is KHANDALYCE. Yeah.

16:13 You know, spelling to me is like a a big deal.

16:16 So anyway, that's, that's the way it is when Carly would go

16:19 out at night because she's a 19 year old kid, she's going out

16:22 with her friends. Friends are the most important

16:24 thing in your life. Then she would either leave

16:26 Candelice with her mom or with her grandma.

16:29 So with Connie. And Connie tells this story

16:32 about, you know, Carly would go out at night, She'd come back

16:36 the next, you know, come back, she'd be inebriated.

16:39 And the next morning, Connie would wake her up when Kandelise

16:42 woke up and was like, no, no, no, You're her mum.

16:44 Yeah. You need to get up and feed her.

16:45 You need to take some responsibility.

16:47 Happy to look after her when you go out.

16:49 But, you know, motherly duty start the next morning.

16:52 Yeah. What?

16:53 Mothering hungover is the worst. Absolute worst and stupidly, we

16:57 never learn. Never.

16:59 You might you might give yourself a week or two reprieve,

17:02 but. Yeah, it's too much fun.

17:06 Like you just. Yeah, you're having so much fun,

17:08 you forget to what? What you're going to get up to

17:09 with the next morning, I reckon. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

17:12 But yes, I think I was. It's lovely that that whole

17:15 family, you know, support system that she had.

17:18 It was certainly raising candy laces in a village.

17:20 Yeah. But at the same time, it was, it

17:22 wasn't, you know, that she had this child, 18 and it got passed

17:25 on to her mum and grandma to raise her at all.

17:27 It was Carly was her mom. Carly was the one who did you

17:30 know 80%. I would say if not 90% of the

17:33 raising of her with then support a support network.

17:37 Which they expected her to get a job.

17:39 So they were happy to look after Candelice when Carly was

17:42 working. They were more than happy to do

17:43 that. The aunties were the same.

17:45 Yeah. So Colleen's sisters were more

17:48 than happy to help out in that way because they actually had

17:51 young kids of their own. So they were all kind of being

17:53 raised together. And, you know, it's, it's

17:55 lovely. Yeah.

17:56 And but yeah, as you said, Carly was responsible for Cantalis and

18:03 was a bite from everything that I've read, aside from those two

18:06 people's accounts, was a wonderful, devoted mum.

18:12 Yeah. As an 18 year old.

18:13 Yes, yeah, which I mean close my mind put on there.

18:17 We're on there. Yeah.

18:19 So I'm gonna start off. Yeah.

18:22 On the 29th of August in 2010, there were some trail bike

18:27 riders riding through the Blengolow State Forest.

18:29 Now, you might recognize that area as a call in relation to a

18:37 different case that we will cover at some point, and that's

18:41 the Ivan Malap case. Yeah, he dumped all of his

18:46 victims in a different part of the Blenglow State Forest in New

18:50 South Wales. Come back to the other.

18:53 Day absolutely come back to him Oh yeah.

18:55 And he look, you know the fact that anyway, sorry I'm getting

19:00 ahead of myself. Trail bike riders, they'd gone

19:04 out for a day of riding and they come upon skeletal remains

19:10 basically and someone one of them is a vet a vet and he stops

19:16 and he's like well these these don't look like animal remains.

19:20 They look like like potentially human remains.

19:22 And everyone's like Nah, Nah, there's no way Nah, it's a it

19:26 must be a dingo. It must be a maybe not a dingo,

19:28 I don't know. It must be something else.

19:30 And they keep going. And then their trail actually

19:33 LED them back around to where they had originally found these

19:37 these remains. And this particular trail bike

19:39 rider was like, no, this is absolutely something that I

19:43 think we need to call in. So they contact the police, the

19:48 nearest police station, which, oh, I can't remember, it might

19:51 be Glebe police station. I might be wrong with that.

19:56 But anyway, a local police station to the Blenglow State

19:59 Forest. And they say, look, we think we

20:02 found human remains. And apparently that happened a

20:06 lot. And it would 9 times or 99 times

20:10 out of 100, it would turn out to be animal remains.

20:13 And so the officer who took the call was like, oh, let me

20:17 transfer you to my superior. The superior was like, look, can

20:21 you just send me? There was one person apparently

20:23 who had mobile phone reception in this whole group.

20:26 And he said, look, can you just text me a photo of it?

20:28 Because I just need to know whether I need to send officers

20:31 out immediately or not. Yeah, they sent the photo.

20:33 And apparently as soon as this officer saw the photo, it was

20:35 like, oh, that's 100% a human skull.

20:37 Yeah. So they said, can you go and

20:40 meet the trail bike riders? Can you go and meet the police

20:43 at this particular point? They've done that, taken,

20:45 directed them, directed them into the remains and within I

20:50 think 4 hours it was swarming with police.

20:55 They tented the area they'd like, they'd brought in the

20:59 homicide, the cold case, they brought in every, you know,

21:03 specialist unit that they needed and they brought in a forensic

21:06 pathologist also. What the forensic pathologist

21:11 determined on autopsy was that the body was aged between 13 and

21:17 25 years. Yeah, was of a female and had

21:21 been sitting in that forest for between six months and 10 years.

21:27 Yeah, So a huge time frame, but it was really difficult to say.

21:31 But the. Only thing that ruled out was it

21:33 being Ivan Malap. It couldn't have been Ivan

21:35 Malap. So he was in jail in 96 I think

21:38 it was. It was, Yep, 96.

21:40 Yep. Yep.

21:41 So that meant that there was no way that this was an Ivan Malap

21:44 case. This was something else.

21:46 So yeah. The forensic pathologist and an

21:50 anthropologist who were at the scene also, they were obviously

21:56 conducting the post mortem. They determined that this these

22:00 skeletal remains had endured fractures, SO2 ribs on both

22:05 sides and a blunt force trauma to the sternum also, which would

22:11 have been lethal to soft organs. So they basically said that that

22:15 the amount of trauma to the rib cage and sternum meant that that

22:20 would have been lethal. Yeah, yeah.

22:23 And they suggested that perhaps by the way of the forcefulness

22:27 that it was potentially stomping or kneeing.

22:30 Yeah. Of the area, yeah.

22:32 Because it was like a wide blunt force.

22:34 Yeah, Yeah. It wasn't like a hammer or

22:37 anything like that. Yeah.

22:38 Yeah. So the other things that were

22:41 found with this with these remains were AT shirt.

22:44 It was a white cotton T-shirt with a pink love heart motif

22:48 that had the words angelic like typewritten across the across

22:53 the heart. Yeah, a single white sock and a

22:56 single silver sleeper earring. The police had nowhere really to

23:05 go with this. They had no like DNAI guess in

23:08 terms of like soft tissue, there was nothing that they could get

23:11 off of any of that to like identify this body.

23:13 But they assumed that they'd be able to get DNA from the bone,

23:16 which they were able to do. Yes, that's right.

23:18 That's. Right.

23:18 They then tried to like figure out from like their missing

23:25 persons list. Would any people on that list

23:30 necessarily meet this 13 to 25 years of age and having been

23:35 missing for between six months and 10 years?

23:38 And they basically went through everyone on that list and I

23:41 think there were, I think it was like 75 odd people matched that

23:46 in NSW match that firm from a missing persons perspective.

23:51 They went through each one of those and determined that

23:53 another, none of those people belong to these remains.

23:59 So they were kind of really stuck.

24:02 They've got ADNA profile but they've got no match.

24:05 No. Any DNA that they've got, where

24:09 do they go from here? There's nowhere to go.

24:12 No, there's nothing to do. They really tried hard to figure

24:15 out where the T-shirt had come from.

24:16 Yeah, that was really highly publicized at the time on news.

24:19 Like, I mean, we're in Victoria. This was, this occurred in New

24:23 South Wales, that we, it was definitely all over our news

24:25 here. It was widespread.

24:27 You know that T-shirt? I remember seeing that very

24:29 clearly, Yeah. Yeah, but it nothing sort of

24:33 came of that. Nobody came forward.

24:35 They named this Jane Doe, the Angel of Blenglo Forest.

24:40 Yeah. Because.

24:42 You know the word Angel was written across her T-shirt.

24:46 I. They did a facial approximation

24:48 image as well have. You seen an interview with the

24:51 woman who did? This.

24:52 No, I haven't. Oh my God.

24:54 Oh, really? Oh.

24:56 Yeah. So that wasn't 2. 1000 she's

24:59 interesting all. Right.

25:00 OK, I know that they she was like some sort of

25:03 anthropologist. Yeah.

25:04 Something. Yeah.

25:05 I mean, they said that once they did work out what the person

25:09 actually looked like and compared to what their

25:10 approximation was, that they learned a lot from that.

25:13 But. So they say, they did say also

25:17 they did some kind of, I don't know how they did this, but they

25:21 thought the remains potentially belong to a European person,

25:26 right? So then they were giving all of

25:31 these details and sending the DNA profile like around the

25:35 world, seeing whether there were hits in other countries where

25:39 people had reported family members missing in Australia.

25:43 And the area is highly, you know, trafficked with

25:45 backpackers and stuff, which, you know, yeah.

25:47 So I guess that's that's not, you know, unfeasible.

25:50 Again, I think that was to the tune of roughly 50 or 60 police

25:57 departments around the world that they sent her this DNA

26:01 profile to. Again, it was not fruitful.

26:04 Can you imagine being one of the families of a missing person

26:07 saying, hey, we, we, we're matching.

26:09 We're going to compare the DNA of this person to your missing

26:13 loved one. You'd get your hopes up every

26:15 time, every time that you were gonna get a a hit and know what

26:18 happened to your loved one. I mean, we've talked on other

26:21 episodes about that whole not knowing the.

26:23 Ambiguous. Loss.

26:24 Biguous loss. Yeah.

26:25 I mean, that you would grapple onto anything like that to find

26:29 out, like, what happened. So it would be horrific

26:32 constantly being like, you know, we think we might have found

26:34 them. And, I mean, at the same time,

26:36 you wouldn't want it to be them because you want them to be

26:38 alive. Like, I can't imagine that that

26:40 pull from me the direction of like, you know, this could be

26:43 them of like wanting it to be them.

26:45 So, you know, but also not wanting it to them be them

26:47 because you want them to be alive.

26:49 Like, that would be just awful. Yeah, it would.

26:52 Be absolutely horrific. What the police did find out

26:55 about the T-shirt was it was produced between 2003 and 2006,

26:59 but it was mass produced in China.

27:01 Yeah. Do you remember that, that chain

27:02 reaction? Yes.

27:03 Store, Yeah. Yes, I had.

27:06 I had quite a number of chain reaction pants.

27:08 I used to wear their pants and it was actually girl size 10.

27:12 So they're like, this was a very small framed girl, which is why

27:17 they thought maybe the person was as young as 13 because they

27:21 were, it was, you know, it was on a very slight and yeah,

27:26 person all right. About 1000 kilometres away from

27:31 Belangalu in Wanaka SA and a half kilometres out of the town

27:40 in July 2015. So the original skeletal remains

27:45 were found in 2010 in Belanglo. In 2015, a group of blokes or

27:53 three blokes I think, were on a road trip and driving out of

27:58 Wanaka in South Australia along the Kurunda Highway and nature

28:01 called. They needed to do away.

28:04 So they pulled over to the side of the road, side of the

28:06 highway, and sort of, I guess, in order to disguise themselves

28:11 a little bit, went into the brush.

28:13 And this particular man was, you know, relieving himself.

28:19 And he sort of glanced something called, his eye glanced over and

28:22 he saw a suitcase and it was partially open.

28:25 There were bits and pieces sort of around it or coming out.

28:29 Yeah, just sort of. Coming out so it looked like

28:31 animals had maybe tried to get into it but hadn't necessarily

28:35 succeeded. And curiosity got the better of

28:38 him. I need to know this because when

28:39 I was listening to this, I was like, I wouldn't go near it.

28:43 Yeah. Would you?

28:44 If you just saw a discarded suitcase on the side of a

28:47 highway, would you go near it? Probably not.

28:49 I just feel like many times like like, you know, I mean,

28:51 unfortunately there's been a few cases where like there's been

28:54 bodies on the side of the road like, you know, like, and that's

28:56 in a similar situation. And I now have this whole thing

28:59 of like now that I drive past like something that looks a bit

29:01 sauce, I guess, you know which people dump all sorts of things,

29:04 not necessarily bodies on the side of the road.

29:06 I do, I keep going, keep driving and often then I'll go, hmm,

29:09 should have stopped. And you're like, no, don't be an

29:11 idiot. Like it'll just be nothing but.

29:14 But it might not be nothing. Yeah.

29:16 Like you just don't know. No.

29:18 Anyway, this guy cured I. Think number of people had

29:21 literally done that though. For sure because if I had of

29:23 been taking one of my kids for a wee down there it would have

29:27 been like don't touch that nut it's probably gross nut don't.

29:31 Because it could have been like, to me on a highway like that, it

29:33 could have literally been someone's got a suitcase on the

29:35 roof of their car. It's come flying off, you know,

29:37 that's. What I would have assumed.

29:39 You just kind of go, you know? Yep, just leave it alone.

29:41 I would have. I wouldn't have touched it

29:43 anyway. This guy.

29:43 Curiosity. Thankfully, curiosity got the

29:45 better of him. He's opened up the suitcase and

29:48 he's seen what he thinks is a small human skull.

29:52 Yeah. Now, again, not sure of what

29:57 he's seeing, although there are children's items in the

30:01 suitcase, which kind of really throws him in that when I say

30:05 throws him at it really gets him into a bit of a tease because

30:09 he's like, holy shit. Like, what the fuck?

30:12 So he ends up obviously calling the police.

30:15 The police come immediately. They were there very, very

30:18 swiftly. Yeah.

30:19 And again, within an hour or so, the whole place was tented and

30:28 the police forensics were there, and they were sort of like

30:32 combing through, seeing what was there, taking photographs, doing

30:35 all of the things that they needed to do.

30:37 Yeah. What they found were about 30

30:39 items in that suitcase, including a black Tutu with

30:44 colorful polka dots, satin Holden boxer shorts.

30:48 So Holden being a car brand, a purple T-shirt, which was had a

30:53 Dora the Explorer motif on it, pink suede coat, among other

30:59 things. So the police were like, well,

31:02 let's have a look. And you know, again, skeletal

31:05 remains of a very young person. I think it was pretty evident

31:10 that this child was of two roughly 2 years of age.

31:14 They're they're in this between 1.2 and 4.8 years of age.

31:17 They're OK, Yeah, yeah. OK.

31:19 So it's, so it's slightly wider. I mean, you know, yeah, yeah, a

31:23 slightly narrower time frame. But I mean, it was tiny little,

31:27 little Beadle bones. Oh my gosh.

31:30 So she was found, they found 2 balls of cotton of dishcloth,

31:35 kind of stuff like in the mouth, 2 balls of that within the mouth

31:38 of the skull. They found that there was a

31:43 disposable nappy had been applied around the side of the

31:46 in the front of the skull and that towels were wrapped around

31:50 the torso of the body. There was also gaffer tape

31:53 wrapped all the way around the head, so near the mouth, so by

31:58 this stage obviously all of the flesh was gone.

32:01 There was, yeah. No soft tissue whatsoever left,

32:04 Yeah. But they could still see the

32:06 gaffer tape was around the victim's mouth.

32:10 Yeah. And the victim was in sort of a

32:15 like kind of curled up in a fetal position in the suitcase

32:19 at the time. They don't from what they from

32:23 the the autopsy they could see what kind of they could do in

32:26 terms of autopsy was that there was no damage to the skull or to

32:31 the bones of the body of the body.

32:33 So therefore they were able to determine they weren't able to

32:36 determine what the cause of death was because there was no

32:38 flesh left, no soft tissue, and because there was no no damage

32:42 to the body. They were, they were assuming

32:45 that potentially was suffocation due to the fact of the gaffer

32:48 tape and things being on the mouth and things being in the

32:50 mouth and that there was no, yeah, breaks of bones, etcetera,

32:55 or skull fractures. So it was a fair assumption that

32:58 suffocation would have been the cause of death, yeah.

33:01 Yeah, again, they've tried to look for missing persons records

33:05 because who wouldn't be missing the two and two or two year old

33:09 or between what, 1 1/2 and 4 year old child?

33:12 Yeah, they thought the Tutu might be a good lead, so they

33:16 looked into that, but it turned out it was sold at a Cotton On

33:19 store, so there were. Everywhere.

33:21 Thousands of them. The one thing that they did have

33:25 in the suitcase, which really helped later on, not at the at

33:30 the time exactly, but there was a hand stitched quilt in there.

33:34 It had octagonal panels. It was around 90cm by 90

33:37 centimeters. Each panel had like animal

33:40 motifs or animal prints on it. And then there was a very

33:44 distinctive border made of musical notes, like the the

33:47 fabric was made of like had musical notes all over it.

33:51 It was the only unique item that was really found.

33:54 The even the suitcase was one that you could buy a dime or

33:57 dime a dozen at Kmart. So it was.

33:59 Also a dress that she that was in there to a pink dress that

34:02 was quite it wasn't distinctive at all in terms of it was sold

34:05 very highly, but there was a pink dress that was recognizable

34:09 potentially. Right.

34:10 Yeah, yeah. But that sort of was fruitful

34:13 and wasn't fruitful anyway. They didn't.

34:16 They weren't able to follow any of this up really at the time.

34:19 Yeah. Not at the time, no.

34:21 So again, we've got, so now we've got a deceased woman in

34:27 Belenglo State Forest who we don't know the whereabouts of.

34:30 And we've got a, you know, around approximately a 2 year

34:34 old in South Australia who again, we don't know who she

34:39 belongs to. And how could a 2 year old or

34:42 roughly 2 year old not be reported missing?

34:44 It's bizarre. Oh, yeah, absolutely.

34:47 But so in October 2015, there was, they were able to put

34:55 together by through basically Crime Stoppers.

34:59 There was a phone call and it was actually the 1200 and 71st

35:03 phone call. They had come through about this

35:06 little baby that, you know, this little young person that was in

35:08 the suitcase who was able to recognize the pink dress in the

35:14 suitcase and that they hadn't seen this child in a while.

35:19 And so that she was actually able to pull out a photo of her

35:23 wearing that exact dress and also then a photo of her in a

35:27 stroller with the blanket. And she named the child as

35:32 Candelice Kiara Pierce. So the person who reported this,

35:37 her name was Tanya Webber. Tanya Webber was Carly's mom,

35:43 Colleen's best friend. There were two decades of

35:47 difference in age for these women, but they met working

35:51 together at, I think it was at a clothes shop, actually, right?

35:54 And they became really, really good friends.

35:58 So Tanya was basically halfway between Colleen's age and was

36:02 actually closer to to Carly's age.

36:05 But because she and Colleen were such good friends, they spent so

36:09 much time time together. They'd go camping together.

36:11 And Tanya would say was saying that like, you know, she'd spent

36:16 so much time with Kandalise and so much time with Carly just

36:21 through being friends with Carly's mom.

36:24 And so she had an intimate knowledge of these two.

36:29 Well, this girl and this woman and yeah, she recognized.

36:33 And, you know, to her, it was bizarre because at that point in

36:38 2015, they hadn't heard from Carly and Candelis in a very

36:42 long time. And any contact that, you know,

36:46 they had had, which we will get into a little bit later, was

36:50 only ever by phone. They'd never seen them.

36:54 Interesting. Yep.

36:55 So that was on the 6th of October that Tanya originally

36:58 rang Crime Stoppers. Now, as you said, it was in

37:00 amongst, I think over 3000 phone calls that they received.

37:03 Yeah, on the 8th of October. She was getting impatient.

37:06 She was like, this is ridiculous.

37:07 No one's called me back. I've got information and I know

37:10 I need to get this to the police.

37:12 So she rang Crimes, Crime Stoppers again.

37:15 She said she has three photos in particular that they must see.

37:19 Yeah. And that night, a detective did

37:22 phone her back, gave her his e-mail address and said, can you

37:26 please e-mail them through? She did that that night, went to

37:29 bed. Yeah.

37:30 The next morning, he basically emailed her back and said, can

37:34 you answer all these questions for me?

37:37 And it was things like, when was the last time you saw them?

37:40 What do you know about them? What was their last known

37:42 address? Yeah, as much information as she

37:45 could possibly give, and she even says there wasn't a lot

37:48 that she could really give, but she was able to say she was with

37:52 this person. This is the last address that we

37:54 have for her, you know? Yeah, Give them something to go

37:59 on. I.

38:00 Guess. Absolutely.

38:01 When the police saw the photos, they say now in hindsight that

38:06 that was an absolute turning point in the investigation for

38:09 them because they didn't really have any viable leads at this

38:12 point. So you've got to keep in mind

38:15 that at this point they're only looking, this is the South

38:17 Australian police and they're only looking into the death of

38:21 what we now think may be cantalice.

38:24 Yeah. Because they had this

38:29 information from Tanya, the South Australian Police

38:34 contacted Alice Springs Hospital and asked for the DNA or asked

38:37 for the Guthrie card that was taken.

38:39 So this is the heel prick test that is taken on every baby born

38:43 in Australia in a hospital. And they were able to then

38:48 positively match, Yeah, the DNA from the Guthrie card that was

38:52 taken when Candalese was born in Alice Springs with the DNA of

38:57 the bones. Yeah.

38:58 That were found in the suitcase on the highway.

39:04 The other thing that the police looked into at this point, So

39:06 now they know the identity of this child they were then

39:11 looking into. OK, let's figure out, try and

39:14 figure out some more information.

39:17 The child was immunized at 18 months, and there were no

39:21 further records of this child anywhere.

39:24 There was no Medicare record. She was never enrolled at a

39:28 school. She would have been nine years

39:29 old at the point where where this was all found.

39:31 Yeah. She'd never been enrolled in a

39:33 school. She'd never attended a hospital

39:35 or a doctor, or no. Because at this point they don't

39:38 know when that suit, that suitcase was put on that side of

39:42 the road. So even though they're guessing,

39:44 you know, we've got a guess here between 1.2 and 4.8 years, they

39:48 don't know how old that or how old she was even like when she

39:51 was in put in that suitcase. Yeah, so.

39:53 How long ago? Yeah.

39:54 I mean, they they can estimate how long.

39:56 I actually didn't see an estimate of how long they

39:58 thought she'd been there, did you?

40:00 Find that no, I didn't answer no, but it was through DNA that

40:05 they were able to then link Candleice to Carly.

40:10 Is that correct? That's right, yeah.

40:12 So this is amazing police work, by the way.

40:15 So the police are sort of then looking, OK, the fact that we

40:20 don't have a missing persons report for this child then.

40:25 So they're thinking, OK, well, where's the mother?

40:29 Obviously, Tanya's given them the information about Carly and

40:32 said this is Carly. This is the last known address.

40:34 They've gone to that address. Carly's not there.

40:36 Carly. These people legitimately didn't

40:39 know where Carly was, what was going on with Carly at the time.

40:42 So they're like, OK, well then where's Carly?

40:45 So then they decided this was over the course of, I think,

40:48 about seven months, was it? They've looked at missing

40:52 persons reports for young women all around the country and they

40:59 have basically sent the DNA off, you know, here, there and

41:04 everywhere to try and figure out whether there was a match

41:07 between any of the current missing persons and candy lease

41:11 and eventually. Eventually it was pretty quick.

41:14 It was October 21st that the police stood in front of media

41:17 and announced it so. It was only a few months.

41:20 Yeah, not Even so. She reported it in mid-october

41:24 and it was by the end of October they'd had the results.

41:29 Wow, that is really quick. Yeah, I thought it was way later

41:34 than that. OK, that's amazing then.

41:37 So anyway, they've obviously figured out that these two are

41:41 related and a mother and daughter.

41:42 They've got a, you know, a genetic match to at.

41:44 The same time it's NSW and Adelaide, like they're 100

41:48 kilometres, 1000, a thousand sorry, kilometres from each

41:51 other. Yeah, like it's how on earth is

41:53 mother and daughter so far away? How'd they end up in these this

41:57 predicament where they clearly have been in some sort of

42:00 horrific situation? That's it.

42:01 So let's go back now to 2007. In late 2007, Carly was in a

42:07 relationship with a man named Robbie by from everything I've

42:11 heard, he was actually a really lovely bloke, took Kandelise on

42:16 as his own and, you know, worked really hard to try and give them

42:22 a life that that he wanted to give them.

42:25 They moved in together or moved into his family's home, I think

42:28 and. I think they moved in with his

42:29 family and then that was getting a little bit tough, which it

42:32 absolutely would be. So one of Robbie's friends, I

42:37 think he, I don't even know how this came about, but through a

42:40 friend of Robbie's, they ended up becoming caretakers at a

42:43 Speedway near wherever they were, like in Alice Springs

42:48 somewhere. Yeah, I can't remember the name

42:50 of the Speedway off the top of my head, but they what they

42:54 basically did was if they were going to caretake the grounds,

42:56 they could rent there for less than $100 a week.

42:59 So they were like, Yep, happy to do it, mow a lawn here, put a

43:02 licker paint on the House and, and it'll be great.

43:05 And I think they had a really nice six to six odd months in

43:09 this house and they were really getting along well.

43:13 Carly's family say that Robbie was a really lovely, a genuinely

43:17 lovely man and he really loved Carly and really, really loved

43:21 Candolese. Unfortunately, Robbie met a man,

43:27 a man by the name of Daniel Marshall.

43:30 At the time. At the time, yeah.

43:32 So an alias it was, but Robbie didn't know that.

43:39 This Daniel Marshall worked at a warehouse near Robbie's work.

43:43 And he rocked up one day and he's like, hey mate, I'm new to

43:46 town. Do you know where I can score

43:47 some drugs or do you know anyone who wants any drugs?

43:50 Because I actually run a bit of a racket between Adelaide and

43:54 Ellis and, you know, I'm trying to distribute a bit more.

43:58 And you know, I'm also looking for a hookup for some, for some

44:01 dope. Yeah.

44:03 And they kind of became friends. So they.

44:05 Had a they as a child that was similar age to Candelice.

44:07 Yeah, that's right, Lauren, wasn't it?

44:10 So they kind of became friends in a sense.

44:14 And I think at the time, Robbie and Carly would smoke a joint

44:19 every now and then, but they weren't drug you like, you know,

44:22 massive drug users by any stretch of the imagination.

44:25 Yeah. Daniel's partner, Hazel.

44:31 Well, they had three children now.

44:34 Do you? Paternity.

44:36 Paternity. Of those children, so Hazel.

44:38 Hazel had three children from a previous relationship.

44:40 Well, but all. Three of them were definitely

44:42 someone else's. They definitely, definitely.

44:44 So yeah, Daniel claimed that the youngest was his, but she

44:47 wasn't. No, their names were Willow,

44:50 Ryan and Lauren and Daniel and Hazel.

44:54 So description of Hazel at this point, Carly was a very

45:00 attractive, slim, just beautiful.

45:04 Like tiny, tiny, Yeah, tiny, tiny young thing.

45:09 I've heard Hazel described in a bit of an opposite way.

45:13 Yeah, I mean, it's quite some photos up on social media, but

45:17 she wasn't wasn't the most. Not really all that attractive.

45:20 Woman, not, I don't know, rough around the edges.

45:25 Or. Put it nicely.

45:27 Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah.

45:30 But at this point, I mean, you know, she's got a child similar

45:32 age to Carly that, you know, they play together.

45:36 They did like, but there was there was a big age gap.

45:39 I mean, we're talking Carly here is like 19198 coming up for 20.

45:43 Yeah, Daniel was 34 and I believe Hazel's similar in age.

45:48 So I mean, not you wouldn't have thought a lot in common to

45:52 become friends. And so the drugs became, I

45:54 think, more of. And unfortunately, Daniel in

45:58 particular introduced Carly to much harder drugs.

46:03 So he introduced her to ecstasy and speed and ice.

46:07 Yeah. So methamphetamine and it, it

46:12 led to a definite change in Carly.

46:14 Her family all say it. She lost weight where she had

46:18 none to lose, from what I can gather.

46:20 Yeah. She looked just really unwell.

46:23 She wasn't eating. She was just not herself.

46:27 She didn't have that spark that she normally had.

46:30 That'd be a really hard thing to to watch as a parent.

46:34 Totally. Or as a family member.

46:35 Absolutely awful. Awful.

46:39 But come to September 15 of 2008 and Daniel is doing his one of

46:46 his regular trips down to Adelaide and back where they do

46:49 their drug run. And Hazel Passmore, his

46:53 girlfriend, along with the the three children have all joined

46:56 him on this run this particular time.

46:59 And on the way back from Adelaide, heading towards Alice

47:04 Springs, they're on the Sturt Highway and they hit the

47:07 Aboriginal community of I'm going to, I'm going to murder it

47:10 in Dalcana, in Dalcana. I believe that's right.

47:13 I think that's right. I think that's right where

47:16 Holden starts to. Holden starts to sort of pass,

47:19 sort of start falling asleep. So can I just say Holden is

47:22 actually Daniel Marshall? So.

47:24 He's sorry his real. Name is actually Daniel Holden

47:27 Holden, sorry. Yes, yeah.

47:29 So he was. Yeah.

47:30 Telling everyone his name was Daniel Marshall, but he's

47:31 actually Daniel James Holden. So Holden starts falling asleep

47:35 in the car and Hazel apparently is trying to wake him up and,

47:38 you know, keep him going. But this does not apparently

47:43 work because all of a sudden the car flips three times and

47:49 completely, oh, it's horrific. The car accident must have been

47:52 horrendous. From the car is thrown Hazel as

47:57 well as her three children. Not the not the youngest.

48:01 Not the youngest, the youngest. Who is it?

48:04 Oh my God, sorry. That's my dog trying to play the

48:07 youngest. The youngest Lauren, was in a

48:09 car seat and she was not thrown from the car, but Willow and

48:13 Ryan were thrown from the car. I believe it was about 11:50

48:19 meters from the car and when Daniel came to and was trying to

48:26 assess the situation, he found them lying both face down in the

48:30 dirt, you know, 10 odd meters from the car and they were

48:34 clearly deceased. Yeah, so a truck driver was the

48:38 first to come onto the scene and find them, to which he found

48:41 Daniel wandering around the scene like so he was physically

48:44 able and not injured in that extent that much of an extensive

48:48 way at all, whereas Hazel was clearly he saw her laying on the

48:52 ground with her baby, with the youngest next to her.

48:56 And then then, and apparently Daniel has said to the truck,

49:00 the truck driver, the other two kids are dead and they're over

49:03 there and points to the Bush to which then the truck driver goes

49:06 to assess them immediately before calling for Triple O.

49:10 Now I think help was about an hour away and the help

49:14 unfortunately was nurses from the local District Hospital.

49:19 I don't think they would have been able to help anyway,

49:21 really. In terms of the kids, I think

49:23 they were not really. Kids, they were.

49:24 They were. Killed on impact.

49:25 Unfortunately, absolutely, but Hazel had sustained some

49:29 absolutely horrific injuries. Yeah, so she ended up having a

49:32 leg amputated and was wheelchair bound from that point on.

49:36 Yeah. So both of her knees were

49:38 dislocated. There was a compound fracture to

49:41 the left knee. Both of her arms were degloved.

49:46 She was airlifted eventually to Alice Springs Hospital but then

49:50 they needed to move her to the Royal Adelaide Hospital because

49:54 they couldn't deal with her that much trauma.

49:57 At the Alice Springs Hospital she was an induced coma for two

50:00 weeks and as you said, they had to amputate her left leg above

50:03 the knee. She had to undergo skin grafts

50:06 for her arms, and she ended up needing a bowel resection as

50:10 well due to the soft tissue damage that she'd sustained in

50:13 the accident. And she was wonder.

50:15 Hand to a wheelchair for life. Yeah, you gotta wonder how he

50:18 walked away. Well, he had a broken collarbone

50:21 and a broken thumb. The other thing they found in

50:24 the car was $10,000 in cash. He also had.

50:28 What else was he like, honestly? So they also did do obviously

50:32 drug tests and things and they did find drugs in his system,

50:34 which he said that that yes, he had taken drugs like, you know,

50:38 a few days ago, but he wasn't under the influence of them at

50:40 that point of driving. I don't know, really.

50:46 To me, honestly, I reckon that's the only way he walked away to

50:48 me. He would have had that, you

50:50 know, limp, limp, kind of, you know, that's, I think that's

50:53 unfortunately what protected him.

50:55 Yeah. So, I mean, God, I can't they

50:58 the the two youngest kids. Just awful.

51:01 Yeah. I think the youngest, Lauren, So

51:05 she was the one in the car seat. Yeah.

51:07 She actually sustained very minimal injuries herself.

51:10 She had a laceration to her head and that was about it.

51:14 I think, yeah. But yeah, the other two, they

51:17 put off obviously funerals for the two other children until

51:21 Hazel was able to exit the hospital.

51:24 So that was put off by a couple of months.

51:26 But on, I think it was August, they had the in August they had

51:32 the funeral for the two children.

51:36 During the time whilst Hazel was in hospital, Daniel would rock

51:40 up to visit her with Carly in Candace and even at this point

51:46 Hazel was something's going on here, so I think.

51:49 Daniel had contacted Robbie in the middle of the night and said

51:52 fuck, man, this is shit. Like things are so bad, like the

51:56 kids are dead. And, and so with that, Robbie

51:59 actually mobilized and went straight to Alice Springs

52:03 Hospital to figure out what was going on.

52:06 And then, like, there was obviously not a lot that he

52:09 could do. So he's gone back home and he's

52:11 told Carly that Hazel was being airlifted down to Adelaide

52:16 Hospital. Yeah.

52:17 At the Royal Adelaide Hospital. And so Carly, somehow Carly and

52:23 Daniel got in a car together with candle ease and went down

52:27 to to visit Hazel. Now Robbie says now that he he

52:34 had suspected for a few months that there was something going

52:37 on between Carly and Daniel. He'd come home one day for lunch

52:42 and unannounced, as you are more than entitled to do in your own

52:46 home. And he'd seen Daniel's car in

52:48 the driveway and he decided not to go inside.

52:51 He decided just to go back to work and Edie's lunch at work

52:54 because he said he just didn't want to know, but he he

52:58 suspected there was something going on between the two of

53:00 them. So I guess at the time Carly

53:05 basically said, so this was in, what was it, late October of

53:10 2008. Carly left him a note, I think,

53:13 and basically said, don't want to be with you anymore.

53:15 I'm leaving me and candles. So, yeah, candles is what they

53:20 called candles. Yeah, me and candles are

53:22 leaving. And he never saw her again.

53:26 Oh, he heard from her. Yeah.

53:28 Well, but he never saw her. Yeah, he did Well, did he?

53:30 Yeah, did he just really quickly.

53:33 Daniel James Holden. He had a very troubled past.

53:39 Yeah. So his his mother neglected him,

53:44 something shocking didn't and he she was not maternal whatsoever.

53:49 His birth father didn't have anything to do with him.

53:52 His stepfather was an abuser, so he either.

53:55 Says that the way that he was conceived meant that she

54:02 couldn't envelope him because she.

54:07 I don't know, Yeah. Like as in she was raped?

54:10 Or it's kind of inferred that it's never said.

54:12 It's never been said anywhere, but it has been inferred within

54:15 the court documents because this is the thing.

54:17 Look, a lot of that information around his childhood, there's

54:20 not a lot of stuff that's consistent, so.

54:23 Or verifiable. Yeah, exactly.

54:25 So although. His mother does.

54:26 I mean that there are certainly bits.

54:28 There are there are docs documents, Yes, Department of

54:33 Children's Services documents. Yeah, but they don't align them

54:36 with his story and then her, then the mother's story.

54:39 They don't all line up. And so it's kind of like, who do

54:41 you believe? Yeah, I just think it's really

54:44 sad because it at 8 years of age, they've put him into foster

54:46 care because they were like, we can't handle this child.

54:49 No, that we don't. Want him?

54:50 The stepfather was heavily abusing him.

54:53 Right. Yeah, but then they've at 9

54:56 years of age, he's placed back in the home with her mother.

54:57 So did she leave her? Stepfather at 9, he was placed

55:00 with his dad, with his biological father, right.

55:03 Who then who was apparently that went quite well for a brief

55:06 period, yeah. And then he was placed in the

55:08 care of his grandparents, his paternal grandparents.

55:12 Yeah, that wasn't going so great.

55:14 And so. Then they couldn't handle they.

55:16 Couldn't handle him. He started going backwards

55:17 again. Yeah.

55:18 So then he went into a group home.

55:21 Yeah. Which, I mean, they look and

55:23 there's the documentation from the group home is quite

55:25 positive. There's a lot of documentation

55:27 of he's happy and he's making friends and he's.

55:29 Which places? Yeah.

55:33 I don't know how much he put into what that those documents

55:36 say. Yeah.

55:36 Because his account of that was that it was fucking awful.

55:41 So. But then I wouldn't believe a

55:42 word that came out of his mouth. No, because he fucking lies just

55:45 to I think the. Trauma on top of trauma on top

55:48 of trauma on top of trauma, Yeah, of like generationally

55:51 speaking. I just, I mean, yeah, fucked up

55:55 is really all you can say. So fucked up.

55:57 Yeah, so fucked up. Yeah.

56:00 But I mean, there's a point where you kind of go.

56:04 How much of that can you blame on then who he's become?

56:09 Like, I get it, that definitely shapes him for sure.

56:12 But I I don't even think that calling him a piece of shit is

56:19 enough. Of Oh no.

56:20 This is. That doesn't cover it.

56:23 Agreed. And also, I think we say this

56:25 so, so frequently on this show, just because you've endured

56:30 abuse doesn't make you an abuser.

56:32 I understand there's a cycle there and it can absolutely

56:37 inform future behaviour. But we know that there are so

56:41 many people out there who don't, who endure this abuse, who then

56:45 don't go on to perpetrate. And he's, we'll get into this

56:49 definitely as well, but he's gone on to do some fucking

56:53 heinous. Oh God.

56:54 It's deplorable. Like it's absolutely awful

56:59 because look, he's been, he's had opportunities in his life to

57:04 turn things around at points, but he's also had a whole lot of

57:08 shit points in his life where he's basically, you know, it's

57:12 given him no other opportunity but to be a shit person.

57:14 Yeah, not to this degree. I'm saying like, that's, I think

57:17 that's where I kind of go, OK. I can't like, yeah, because I

57:20 mean, there was a one where I was reading where he, he would

57:23 run away because his dad was his father, his stepfather, sorry,

57:25 was abusing him like physically, emotionally, everything, every

57:28 abuse under the son, his stepfather was doing to him.

57:31 Apparently he's the stepfather and the, and his and his

57:34 brother, the stepfather's brother and him would sexually

57:37 abuse him. So he would then run away.

57:40 Daniel would run away. The cops would then pick him up

57:43 and take him back. Now that's just, that hurts my

57:48 soul like that. There weren't people then, you

57:51 know, stepping in at those points either.

57:53 So there were certainly points where they where people did step

57:55 in, but there were other points where they didn't so.

57:58 Yeah, it's just it's, it's absolutely horrible.

58:01 Yeah. So Carly's mom, Colleen was

58:03 diagnosed with breast cancer and her dying wish was that she

58:08 wanted to see Carly and Kandelise.

58:11 So the last all, all she really knew at this point was that

58:16 Carly and Kandelise had gone down to Adelaide with Daniel,

58:21 who they'd met once, I think, and they didn't like him.

58:25 They thought he was he didn't make eye contact with them.

58:29 He was rude. He was not very nice to Carly.

58:32 They. Loved Robbie.

58:34 They were going, yeah, yeah. Their story was that they were

58:36 going to look for work. Yeah, even though Carly had a

58:40 job in Alice Springs. Yes, Yeah, yeah, that was the

58:43 story. Was it though when they left was

58:46 that they were looking for work? Yeah, so they, so Colleen's

58:51 husband, Scott, so Carly's stepfather, they were doing

58:54 everything they could to try and reach them.

58:57 They oh, it's, it's, it's horrible because in the

59:01 preceding years, they hadn't seen Carly in candy leaves, but

59:04 they'd heard from them, or so they thought.

59:07 Yeah. They had received phone calls to

59:09 say that they needed money. They'd received text messages

59:14 and various other sort of forms of contact like that.

59:17 I don't think there was any social media contact.

59:20 I think that was one thing that that they hadn't done.

59:23 Carly's cousin. So I think this was.

59:27 Yeah. So this is one of Colleen's

59:28 sister's daughters. She'd actually to try and locate

59:34 Carly and Candace had put out like a missing person, not a

59:37 missing persons thing. But hey, who's seen Carly?

59:39 Last known address was in Adelaide.

59:42 We're trying to find her because Auntie Colleen's, you know,

59:46 would like to see her. They tried, you know, the mobile

59:50 number that they had for her and just no contact.

59:53 And apparently on her deathbed, Colleen basically hallucinated

59:58 that Karlie and Candy leaves were in the corner of the room.

1:00:01 And. Apparently she's her last words

1:00:04 that she spoke that were able to be understood was a Karlie and

1:00:08 candles here yet, but she had actually reported the missing

1:00:14 officially with police in on the 4th of September in 2009 and so

1:00:19 the police did make some contacts and try and find

1:00:24 Karlie. This actually gives me the shit.

1:00:26 Oh, absolutely. I mean, and look, this has

1:00:28 changed since then and they won't accept this now, but

1:00:31 unfortunately, and not only this case, but also I think lady

1:00:34 vanishes, that Lady vanishes. Oh.

1:00:36 Yeah, the Lady vanishes. Marian respects this Marian.

1:00:39 What was her name? No.

1:00:40 Barlow, Barlow but but. Oh my God.

1:00:44 But something bar, bar something.

1:00:47 It'll come to me now. But yeah.

1:00:49 So in September, September 4th, she reported them missing.

1:00:53 The police then contacted people and did get in touch with Daniel

1:00:56 because that was the name that like the mother had, Colleen had

1:00:59 said, you know, like she's with Daniel Holdem, you know, all

1:01:02 these sorts of things. And that last known in Adelaide.

1:01:04 So the Adelaide police had contacted Daniel and he said to

1:01:08 them, oh, I haven't seen her since February 2009.

1:01:11 We separated and she, she went to the NT.

1:01:15 But then I last I heard she was in Queensland with a new bloke,

1:01:18 right? That was his story.

1:01:19 He told them and then he said I've, I do have another number

1:01:21 for her. Call me back this afternoon and

1:01:24 I'll go. I'll get it for you.

1:01:25 Call me back this afternoon and I'll give it to you.

1:01:26 This other number. They were unable to contact him

1:01:29 for further information from there.

1:01:31 However, in the meantime, on September 10th, 2009, Carly's

1:01:36 mother received a number of messages from Carly saying text

1:01:41 messages saying that she was fine.

1:01:43 Candles is fine. We're all OK, but we don't want

1:01:46 to have contact. We don't want contact with

1:01:48 family but we're fine. Can you please send me some

1:01:51 money? Yeah, can you send me money?

1:01:53 So which then Colleen's gone and rung the police back and said,

1:01:56 oh, it's OK. I've I've got text messages from

1:01:59 text messages from her. She's saying she's fine but

1:02:01 doesn't want contact with family.

1:02:03 So they've got said, oh, tick box done.

1:02:06 No longer a missing person. So we're in September 2009,

1:02:11 she's no longer now a missing person.

1:02:13 That's and so that's why when in 2010 a body is found in the

1:02:16 Belanglo Forest, there's no missing person report for Carly

1:02:21 or Candelice because it's been it had.

1:02:23 Been withdrawn. So the, when the police are

1:02:26 looking into, into this, you know, initial missing persons

1:02:29 report, they could see that her bank cards had been used and

1:02:34 that there was activity on her mobile phone and they kind of

1:02:38 just took it at that. Yeah, we know for sure, yeah,

1:02:42 100% for sure that Carly wasn't alive at the time.

1:02:47 So a total of $72,000 was accessed accessed in her bank

1:02:52 account between 2008 and 2011. Sorry, 2012.

1:02:57 Yeah. Unbelievable.

1:02:59 So this was Centrelink payments or social support payments?

1:03:02 Yeah. And it was all withdrawn.

1:03:06 So it was either used through her card.

1:03:09 So that was used for things like Ubers and hotels, flights.

1:03:15 There was some food items on there.

1:03:18 All cash was withdrawn from ATMs. There was a person so

1:03:24 identified as a woman in a wheelchair with quite a frumpy

1:03:30 appearance attending a Centrelink office and then a

1:03:33 credit union office to change the address details that then

1:03:38 matched, surprisingly enough, where Hazel was living with

1:03:42 Daniel. Because she claimed to be Carly

1:03:44 and also brought along Kandalisa's birth certificate

1:03:47 with her and therefore that released that actual interaction

1:03:50 with Centrelink on that particular moment.

1:03:53 Released a payment of $7806.00 for arrears of family tax

1:03:58 benefit and rent assistance. Yeah.

1:04:00 So she basically said at the time that she did not want to

1:04:02 claim child support anymore and that it then entitled her, who

1:04:07 they thought was Carly, to get back payment for for those.

1:04:11 Things. So, yeah.

1:04:12 And that money immediately obviously was siphoned out of

1:04:16 that account slowly as well. Just awful.

1:04:19 So that was in 2010, that particular incident.

1:04:22 Yeah, Yeah. Should we go back to well, I

1:04:28 guess, I guess. Should we say what we now know

1:04:30 happened? Yeah, yeah.

1:04:31 So. So basically from the point of

1:04:36 Carly and Daniel Holden leaving Adelaide and leaving his

1:04:40 girlfriend of the time, Hazel in a wheelchair in Adelaide.

1:04:45 After having killed her two. Children, yeah.

1:04:49 So they disappeared, the two of them, they ran off and they

1:04:52 ended up in Canberra in on the 17th of December.

1:04:56 Oh, sorry, that was a bit earlier that we ended up in

1:04:58 Canberra visiting. They went and visited with

1:05:01 Daniel's cousin, I believe it was.

1:05:03 Yeah, Christine. Cousin Christine and her husband

1:05:05 Derek. Yeah.

1:05:07 So that was the three of them obviously that were staying

1:05:10 there with her, with them. There was candles as well as

1:05:12 Carly and Daniel. And on the was it the December

1:05:19 15th I wanted to say? 14th of December 2008.

1:05:23 They were the last two people to see Carly alive.

1:05:27 So their account of that night is that Daniel and Carly had an

1:05:31 argument. They left Kandelice with the

1:05:35 couple, so with Christine and Derek with the cousin and her

1:05:38 husband, and they took off in Carly's car the next day at

1:05:44 Around was it about 2:00? So what we do know is that due

1:05:51 to the phone data that was then recovered from Daniel's phone,

1:05:57 he was at the Bulenglo State Forest for 7 1/2 hours that

1:06:01 following morning. So he's driven from Canberra to

1:06:04 the Bulenglo State Forest. He was there a bit after

1:06:06 midnight, I believe. Oh, it was about sorry, it was

1:06:09 about 4:00 in the morning. Yeah, they left Canberra at 2:30

1:06:12 in the morning. Yeah, so they were there from

1:06:17 they would have arrived in the Blind Globe, more like. 430 sort

1:06:20 of stuff. 4430 Yeah, he was there for 7 1/2 hours or his

1:06:22 phone was in. This time, he'd actually taken

1:06:28 some really horrific photos of Carly.

1:06:33 Absolutely disgusting. So in the execution of her

1:06:36 murder, not only had he done exactly what the coroner

1:06:42 ascertained in that he stomped on her chest and crushed her

1:06:46 internal organs, he sexually assaulted her.

1:06:50 There's photographic evidence of this.

1:06:53 He used implements like glass bottles.

1:06:58 He defaced her with all manner of like scratches and cuts and

1:07:05 that kind of thing and took plenty of photos for his

1:07:10 pleasure I guess. I don't know for him to look

1:07:13 back on afterwards and gross, Yeah, Horrible, horrible.

1:07:18 What a. Fucking sick prick.

1:07:19 In the court documents, it does talk very explicitly about what

1:07:24 is in those photos. Yeah, I'm not going to repeat it

1:07:28 because it's absolutely beyond. It's beyond compilation.

1:07:33 But not only that. So this same SD card that was in

1:07:36 that camera, they found all sorts of photos on that camera

1:07:41 that were deleted, but still on the card.

1:07:44 And a particular photo that was found was also that on the night

1:07:49 of the car accident with the children in the car, he had

1:07:54 taken a photo of one of the children's skull fragments on

1:07:58 the ground near that accident. So somehow, in that moment of

1:08:03 staggering around that horrific accident, he had decided to take

1:08:07 a photo of that. Yeah, and his account of it is,

1:08:10 oh, I was rendering first aid to Hazel the whole time.

1:08:14 He he is quite possibly one of the most evil people.

1:08:19 I've ever come absolutely pure evil.

1:08:23 So these photos that they were taken of of Carly in these in

1:08:28 these disgusting photos, it is unknown whether or not she was

1:08:32 alive or dead at that time. They can't determine that.

1:08:37 Disgusting. Absolutely.

1:08:40 Horrific. It's horrible.

1:08:40 He'd covered her face in a lot of them, which is why it makes

1:08:43 it difficult to determine whether she was alive or

1:08:47 deceased, but it was very, very close either way.

1:08:50 Yeah. The last photo was taken about

1:08:52 45 minutes before he left the forest.

1:08:55 Yeah, yeah, he returned then back to Canberra where Candelis

1:09:00 was obviously without Carly, to which his cousin is Christine

1:09:04 was how would why would she just leave without candles?

1:09:07 And he made this statement of she just does that sometimes,

1:09:10 you know, we have arguments and she just UPS and leaves and

1:09:12 goes. So.

1:09:15 So that was just. Carly's family said that would

1:09:17 literally never happen. She would never, ever do that.

1:09:20 She would never leave candles. Yeah.

1:09:22 So in all of this, the only two people that would ever comment

1:09:25 negatively around his around Carly's parenting is Christine

1:09:29 because she believed what her cousin told her, Daniel.

1:09:33 So they were the only two that was within had statements that

1:09:36 said negative things around Carly's parenting.

1:09:38 So just putting that out there. Yeah.

1:09:41 So basically Christine took it on face value that, yeah, Carly

1:09:45 was still alive, obviously, and off on her own run, run off from

1:09:49 this argument and they'll sort that out couple of days later.

1:09:54 Hold him. Actually, he gets rid of the car

1:09:56 that he had that was actually Carly's car.

1:09:58 He went and got rid of that, traded it in, traded in.

1:10:01 He got another car, a Holden Statesman, and on the 19th of

1:10:06 December. Which was in Derek's name.

1:10:08 Yeah, that's right. So the cousin's husband's name,

1:10:11 because Holdem didn't have a license after the accident,

1:10:16 could have been taken off him, but he's still driving around.

1:10:18 He's still driving around, Yeah. Yeah, so yeah, on the 19th of

1:10:22 December, him and Candles pack up their stuff from his cousin

1:10:25 Christine's house and hit the road.

1:10:29 But Candles is never to be seen alive again.

1:10:31 So I think Daniel said to Christine that he was going to

1:10:35 drop candles at her grandmother's place.

1:10:38 And so Christine, I reckon she took that on face value because

1:10:42 he wasn't going to keep his girlfriend's kid.

1:10:45 Yeah, assumed that had been pre arranged and didn't ask any

1:10:50 further questions. No, but.

1:10:52 So he headed South towards headed towards SA, but he

1:10:56 stopped off at a supermarket in Wagga Wagga.

1:10:57 Along the way he purchased body wash gel, multi purpose wipes,

1:11:03 garbage bags and duct tape. Did you know that however many

1:11:09 years later when they were going to court about this, yeah,

1:11:13 Woolworths, still Woolworths, were actually able to pull up

1:11:17 this receipt. Wow.

1:11:18 Out of their records. That's impressive because if I

1:11:21 went down there and tried to return something, they'd tell

1:11:23 me. Have you got your receipt?

1:11:25 Don't even get me started. I had a bit of an issue with

1:11:27 Woolworths this morning with my cherries.

1:11:29 Wasn't very happy. But anyway, sorry, that's the

1:11:31 story for another day. But yeah, that blew my mind.

1:11:35 Yeah. It was like how many 8 odd years

1:11:36 later or six years later? Yeah, they were able to go

1:11:40 through their records and match they and so they knew exactly.

1:11:43 What I thought they have exact. Brands.

1:11:45 CCTV footage or no they. Didn't, No, but they had the

1:11:50 receipt. Wow.

1:11:51 Pinpoint like the exact I mean how many stores they have.

1:11:54 I guess you married down to A. Store, but in which store

1:11:57 roughly they were looking within this time frame, Yeah.

1:12:01 And then they were. Able to.

1:12:02 Well, yeah, I guess the next point would be that they checked

1:12:04 into a hotel at 11:00 AM So I guess looking at timeline, yeah,

1:12:08 you could probably say within this hour.

1:12:09 Yeah, look at all the receipts. Yeah, amazing.

1:12:13 Yeah. So they checked into a hotel in

1:12:15 Narandera, in a motel at 11:00 AM.

1:12:18 But there from his, his phone, his phone, like the phone data,

1:12:22 they can tell he was only there for about 2 1/2 hours.

1:12:25 However, this is where they believe that unfortunately, he

1:12:28 killed Carly Candelice. Yeah.

1:12:30 So when he checked into the hotel, he checked in under his

1:12:33 real name. Yeah, records were kept.

1:12:36 So the records of this were incredible, the way this came

1:12:39 about. But he checked in under his own

1:12:41 name and he checked in that there was one adult and one

1:12:44 child checking into the room. The people who, when the police

1:12:48 were investigating this many years later, the people who

1:12:54 owned the motel at the time were no longer owners.

1:12:58 Right. So the people who were owned,

1:13:00 who owned it once the police were were looking into this were

1:13:02 like, well, sorry, we actually don't have.

1:13:04 We've only got records for X amount of years.

1:13:06 We don't have all those. Yeah.

1:13:08 So they were able to find where the old owner was living.

1:13:11 They went to visit her there. Yeah.

1:13:13 And they were like, do you have any records?

1:13:15 She was like, look, I really don't think I do.

1:13:17 And they were like, well, the other thing we're actually

1:13:19 looking for is this particular brand of towel that they found.

1:13:22 Yeah. With the body.

1:13:23 Body. Yeah.

1:13:24 And the owner was like, I actually use our old motel

1:13:29 towels as my dog towels now. Let me go and see, they were

1:13:32 able to match the serial number on the towel from this random

1:13:36 woman's house in, like, I think she was living in country SA at

1:13:40 the time, Right. And they were able to match the

1:13:42 serial numbers, like, incredible police work.

1:13:45 Yeah. To show that he'd be that place,

1:13:48 in that place at that. Time and that matches up with

1:13:51 them a. Couple of weeks later,

1:13:53 apparently this old motel owner thought got the the better of

1:13:56 her. She's like, I'm gonna go and

1:13:57 check and see everything that we brought back from the motel and

1:13:59 see if we can find it. He she found the actual receipt.

1:14:03 He'd paid $85 for the night. Oh, wow.

1:14:06 And it was in his real name and it was room 32 and.

1:14:10 Wow. Yeah, that's impressive.

1:14:13 I mean, I mean, that would have been great to know in what room

1:14:15 because I mean, they could. Have checked, I guess they did.

1:14:17 But I mean I don't know how. Much of it.

1:14:18 They did luminal testing. They tested some, They tested

1:14:22 the bed, which apparently the beds hadn't been changed in that

1:14:25 time, but the carpets had and the rooms had been painted, so

1:14:28 it didn't come up with anything. And they decided it was way too

1:14:32 much work to forensically test every single bed sheet.

1:14:36 Yeah. In the whole place.

1:14:37 Because the chance they would have found something was very

1:14:40 minimal because, I mean, how many times would they have been

1:14:42 watched? Thousands in that time.

1:14:43 So yeah, they decided that was not worth.

1:14:46 Yeah. Resource.

1:14:47 The resource to for an absolutely one in a trillion

1:14:50 chance, probably, Yeah. So, yeah.

1:14:54 Incredible police. Work.

1:14:55 Oh God, yeah. So.

1:14:57 Well, I mean, yes, we still don't.

1:14:58 I mean, we won't ever know. I don't think exactly what

1:15:01 happened to Candelice because he is the only person that knows,

1:15:05 but the one thing that we do know and that is agreed upon

1:15:08 from the prosecution's point of view as well as as his defence

1:15:12 that there was a sexual motive involved in the murder of

1:15:15 Candace. Which again, fucking disgusting

1:15:19 piece of shit. Hazel was interviewed in the

1:15:24 course of all of this because they wanted to know what

1:15:27 involvement she had and because after Carly was murdered, Daniel

1:15:33 and Hazel re entered into their relationship.

1:15:36 She just took him. Back, he literally couldn't know

1:15:38 after after so basically he he murdered Candelice, put her in

1:15:42 that suitcase and dropped her off on the side of the road in,

1:15:45 in then SA yeah, on his way because the next spot he stopped

1:15:49 at yeah was literally Hazel's house.

1:15:51 Yeah, knocked on the door and they started their relationship.

1:15:54 Again. Yeah, she just took him back in.

1:15:56 He had some kind of weird hold over.

1:15:58 It well, let's get into that maybe.

1:16:00 Well, he track. Yeah, Hazel, so you know, when

1:16:05 she was interviewed by the police after all of this came,

1:16:08 came to a head, they basically offered her.

1:16:12 So they offered her an inducement, which is different.

1:16:16 It's different from like an indemnity.

1:16:19 So basically what it means is if she provided a true and accurate

1:16:24 statement, she could not be prosecuted for any information

1:16:28 she gave. However, if she perjured herself

1:16:32 in the statement, they could prosecute her for that.

1:16:35 And so if they were able to gain evidence for that, then the

1:16:38 police could choose to then prosecute her for her lies.

1:16:41 So it's not an absolute, like it's not an absolute immunity.

1:16:49 It's called an inducement. And apparently this is a tactic

1:16:52 that police use all the time because they get the information

1:16:55 that they want and then they can still.

1:16:56 Can still prosecute? Prosecute.

1:16:58 The person because if they don't do the right thing, they're all.

1:17:00 Crimes, but I'm sorry, but she's she is equally piece of shit as

1:17:03 he is. Like in that.

1:17:05 Well, probably not, but still not quite.

1:17:08 The single fact of the matter is this guy's rocked back up.

1:17:11 He, he tells her eventually, because she finds Carly's

1:17:14 possessions in the car, the boot of her car, of his car, and

1:17:18 she's like, Oh my God, they're still together, like, and he's

1:17:20 going, no, no, she's like, she ran off to Queensland, that old

1:17:23 story. Eventually he breaks down and he

1:17:25 tells her that he's murdered Carly and Candle.

1:17:29 He says she's gone for good and then Hazel doesn't ask any

1:17:32 further questions to that. Eventually, he.

1:17:34 Does eventually he confesses fully.

1:17:37 Doing both to what he did to both of them with some detail,

1:17:40 well. He says, he says to her, this is

1:17:43 this is Hazel's statement. Yeah.

1:17:44 He says he raped her with a bottle.

1:17:47 He stomped on her throat and crushed her throat.

1:17:50 Yeah. And you know his response to

1:17:53 when she said, why did you do that?

1:17:56 His response was, I did it for you because I wanted to come

1:17:59 back to you. And she turned around and went,

1:18:03 oh, the love of my life. What the fuck I why would you

1:18:07 not like heading down to the police station to go, holy fuck,

1:18:11 this guy who now has murdered my two children in a car accident

1:18:14 has now murdered another girl and her child.

1:18:18 Get the fuck out, love. She didn't.

1:18:21 They stayed together until 2010 and even then they split up and

1:18:27 at two in 2010, we still didn't know that the candy list had

1:18:31 still not been found on like in that that suitcase.

1:18:34 No. So in 2010 she splits up with

1:18:36 him and it's all really bad and he's an asshole.

1:18:38 She still didn't even go. I'm going to the cops on you.

1:18:40 No, I don't can't even Oh God. I mean, and then not not to

1:18:45 mention all the phone calls she made on, you know, to his PIN

1:18:48 being telling her, you know, like I need to now phone call,

1:18:50 phone this person or text that personal rock up at a Centrelink

1:18:53 and, you know, make sure that Carly looks like she's still

1:18:55 alive. Disgusting.

1:18:58 It's her. It's fucking horrible.

1:19:00 Yeah, she should be in jail. He admitted to Hazel.

1:19:05 This is the bit that gets me. This is the bit that I'm like,

1:19:07 why the fuck? When you heard this?

1:19:09 Yeah. Were you not down at the police

1:19:11 station knowing that you've got a young daughter and now she

1:19:14 also had a Well, no, not yet, but.

1:19:16 She knew all this stuff before. Yes, sorry, but she had a young

1:19:20 daughter. She still had Lauren at this

1:19:21 point. He admitted to her that he was

1:19:26 sexually abusing Kandelise and Kandelise died while they were

1:19:32 doing it. I think I just vomited in my

1:19:36 mouth. That's disgusting.

1:19:39 That is beyond revolting. This is the bit that I can't get

1:19:45 over, like as a mother. But I mean, she knew that of him

1:19:50 way before that. Like that.

1:19:52 Like that statement is next level evil, but she knew that he

1:19:58 was capable of that. Yes, because he'd been.

1:20:01 He used to ask her to detailily tell him the story of her own

1:20:09 abuse, sexual abuse as a child, so that he could Jack off to it.

1:20:13 Yep. And he asked her to even write

1:20:15 it down in stories, and so she used to write him stories about

1:20:19 it, of it. Yep.

1:20:21 Oh, it's just horrific. So by the time we get to where

1:20:25 we've now identified Candy Lisa's body and we've identified

1:20:28 Carly's body and all these sorts of things, they very quickly

1:20:33 catch on to Daniel Bing being a personal suspect, right?

1:20:37 And they can find him very easily because he's already in

1:20:39 jail. So he was in waiting sentencing

1:20:43 for a a sexual assault case of a child under the age of 10 at a

1:20:49 caravan park in New South Wales Central Coast.

1:20:53 So this poor little girl, she was nine years of age and you

1:20:57 can I don't even know that we want to go down the account, her

1:21:01 account of what happened, but she actually to her, you know,

1:21:05 what a strong little girl, she told her mom and dad straight

1:21:07 away about what had happened. So at the time Daniel was so he

1:21:15 and Hazel had broken up at this point and he had actually

1:21:18 entered into a relationship with a 17 year old girl.

1:21:23 I just, I can't even with this. I mean, at this point, he's, you

1:21:26 know, put over 40. Yeah.

1:21:28 Because, like, what is he? He's 44 by the time what in 2000

1:21:32 and when he gets sentenced? Yes, so I think so.

1:21:35 I think he was, he was like 42 or something when all this

1:21:38 happened. In fact, I've got that written

1:21:40 down somewhere. No, he was 43.

1:21:41 He was 43. Oh, So what an absolute yeah

1:21:45 fucking asshole going out with a 17 year old.

1:21:47 Like fuck off you absolute pedo but.

1:21:50 Where are they? Where are people stepping in

1:21:52 with this? I just, that's, I don't know.

1:21:54 Yeah, but he was sorry. He was also found with a

1:21:56 notebook, right? Oh, yes.

1:21:58 Where there were thirty name children's names in this book

1:22:03 with their it was either their name or an age that was sort of

1:22:05 identified them and next to each of them it was written either

1:22:11 rape, forced or consent. What does rape?

1:22:16 This is what I didn't get when I was reading this.

1:22:18 What's the difference between rape and forced?

1:22:20 Oh don't get me started on that. Like what the fuck?

1:22:23 And then consent. Consent.

1:22:25 If you're under the age of what, 16, you cannot provide consent.

1:22:28 And these ages were all well under that.

1:22:31 Absolutely. And also if he, if you know, he

1:22:33 was in his fucking 30s and 40s when he was doing this shit.

1:22:37 Yeah. Yeah, so Candle's name was on

1:22:40 that list. They can't verify and they know

1:22:44 that what was written in that book was accurate, but the

1:22:48 things that were in there. Because he only had given names.

1:22:50 Yeah. So he could they the police, as

1:22:52 much as they tried, they couldn't actually narrow down to

1:22:55 these people these girls were. No, but what they could work out

1:23:00 was that there was definitely locations in the book where he

1:23:04 they could prove he was that in those in that time frame of 2000

1:23:07 and six, 2007. There was also the stuff that

1:23:10 was in there that he's he claims that he was he had done were

1:23:14 very much in line with what the photos of like Carly's body and

1:23:19 things showed. So it from it, you could deduce

1:23:23 that these were quite possibly accurate, but not enough

1:23:26 evidence of obviously to declare outright that this wasn't false

1:23:29 because as you were talking about before, he was also into

1:23:32 stories. So we we don't know what level

1:23:35 of it was fantasies. And so it's possible that some

1:23:38 of this was just fantasies. And I think you were alluding to

1:23:40 this before as well. He just lied all the time.

1:23:42 Well he lied for things that would potentially get him into

1:23:46 more trouble that weren't true, and then he lied about things to

1:23:48 get himself out. It was.

1:23:49 He was a fucked unit. He's a fucked unit.

1:23:52 He was interviewed when when they arrested him originally for

1:23:55 this, which at that point he was.

1:23:57 He was said no, he had no partner to the point of when

1:24:00 they arrested him for it. He said.

1:24:02 You've got the wrong guy. He he pleading guilty.

1:24:06 Yeah. He, he did plead guilty

1:24:07 eventually, but he actually implicated Derek that his

1:24:10 cousin's husband. No, that was that was the first

1:24:13 thing he was interviewed by police.

1:24:15 And the police were like, well, we put it to you that blah,

1:24:17 blah, blah, that you've done all these things.

1:24:18 Yeah. And he was like, no, no, no.

1:24:20 Then the police said, look, this was a multiple hour interview.

1:24:24 Yeah. They then gave him, he was in,

1:24:27 as you know, he was in prison awaiting sentencing at the time

1:24:30 they gave him their card. And they're like, if you can

1:24:33 think of anything else, let us know.

1:24:35 And he'd gone overnight, obviously had to think about how

1:24:37 he's going to sort of spin this to make it work for him.

1:24:42 And he was like, the next one. He's like, look, I didn't want

1:24:43 to say anything yesterday, but yeah, it was Derek.

1:24:47 It's actually Derek. Yeah.

1:24:49 Yeah. He's a piece of shit, that

1:24:50 Derek. I mean, Derek has bit turns

1:24:53 before, to be fair, Right. But not in the murder of Carly

1:24:58 or Candela. Stay, say like, Oh no, I didn't

1:25:02 do it and try and get yourself out of it.

1:25:03 It's a whole other level of things to put someone else in.

1:25:06 It and someone you know. Point at someone like and go.

1:25:08 Get a family member I. Just that's really shit.

1:25:12 Like that is really, you know, disconnected from any kind.

1:25:15 Of he actually said to them as well, he's like, I'll be a Crown

1:25:17 witness and I'll, I'll, I'll never speak to my family again.

1:25:20 You've got to give me a new identity though, a new name, and

1:25:23 that needs to be paid for by the Crown.

1:25:26 Pay for me to be to. Be a new person and I'll

1:25:28 disappear. And they're all like, I mean,

1:25:32 the police knew at this point that he'd done it.

1:25:33 And they're like, yeah, yeah, sure, sure, sure.

1:25:35 Tell us a bit more about that. And in in the telling of this

1:25:38 story that he'd conjured up, he actually couldn't keep the story

1:25:42 straight. And he told three different

1:25:43 versions of events. And when they then challenged

1:25:46 him with that, he was like, I need a lawyer.

1:25:51 Good one mate. Yeah, it's about time.

1:25:53 Yeah. He ended up getting a legal aid

1:25:55 lawyer who he didn't like, and then he asked for the government

1:25:59 to pay for a proper criminal attorney, which they did.

1:26:04 I think eventually the justice in the case was not happy about

1:26:09 any of it, but obviously wanted a fair trial because he didn't

1:26:12 want anything coming. Oh, you know.

1:26:15 Well, this is the other stuff here.

1:26:16 Psychologically, he he dragged this out as long as he possibly

1:26:20 could once there was on the cards a trial.

1:26:23 So at first it was, you know, Yep, he was innocent.

1:26:26 By the time he'd got legal counsel, he was yeah, OK,

1:26:29 probably gonna gonna plead guilty His that was the on

1:26:32 advice of them. So he got all the way up to the

1:26:36 day of the hearing, to which he then decided to, he told his

1:26:43 counsel as they arrived, because obviously he's coming in from

1:26:45 the docks, from the jail underneath.

1:26:48 He comes into it with his counseling.

1:26:49 He goes, oh, yeah, actually, I'm not going to plead guilty to

1:26:51 Candelice's murder. So that.

1:26:54 So then they were in this position of having to put

1:26:56 present that to the judge on the spot, which didn't go down too

1:26:59 well. It it got sorted out eventually.

1:27:03 And he what he did plead guilty to both, both of them.

1:27:05 But I mean, he just wanted to find any way possible to drag

1:27:10 this out and make it take longer than it needed to.

1:27:14 Did you know that Mark Tedesky? Yes, the prosecution.

1:27:17 He's the same prosecutor for Kelly Lane.

1:27:20 Lane. Now I'm not a big fan but.

1:27:22 Not at all, but he actually did a really good.

1:27:24 Job a good job on this one. Yeah, yeah.

1:27:26 Go back and listen to our Kelly and Tegan Lane episode and you

1:27:30 can get our real thoughts on Mark Tedeski, especially in

1:27:33 that. And we're not the only.

1:27:34 Ones. Oh no, we're not.

1:27:36 There's a lot about him. I mean he he actually resigned

1:27:39 as senior prosecutor in the February of that year the 2018.

1:27:42 So I'm not sure that he was there actually for the final

1:27:44 sentencing and stuff of of Daniel, but yeah, he's certainly

1:27:48 part of the original hearings and things because I was back in

1:27:51 August of 2017 when it first started being heard.

1:27:56 You can find the court documents online.

1:27:57 There's the the actual statement by the judge when he sentences

1:28:01 Daniel is quite lengthy, but worth.

1:28:05 Three with lengthy. He hit the nail on the head.

1:28:08 He's a massive evil motherfucker.

1:28:12 Like I'd it's. He's he received two life

1:28:16 sentences on the 29th of November in 2018 and he will

1:28:19 rush in jail thank fuck because there's no rehabilitation for a

1:28:24 piece of shit like that. I imagine him in jail like and

1:28:28 just. I think he has to be in like a

1:28:30 solitary wing because he's a child rapist and child murderer

1:28:35 and I don't know why we protect. I don't know why either.

1:28:37 Really. Fucking let him add him.

1:28:40 Oh, he deserves it. Oh, he's just, it's really gross

1:28:45 what he did to those two people. And I I can't even imagine that

1:28:49 the number of other people have been impacted by him.

1:28:51 And his behaviors we wouldn't even know.

1:28:53 No, I think that where he's where he belongs absolutely in

1:28:57 prison. And that's what I mean, I know

1:28:58 Carly's stepdad actually asked for the death penalty to be

1:29:02 invoked again for him. I think that's too good for him

1:29:05 personally. I think he can rot it out in

1:29:07 jail for as long as possible. Yeah.

1:29:09 Yeah. As we said, Colleen, Carly's

1:29:12 Mama, unfortunately passed away in 2012, so she didn't know

1:29:16 where they were. Well.

1:29:17 She didn't know that they were deceased.

1:29:19 No, I had no idea of anything. Maybe that's a small mercy

1:29:22 because she didn't have to have the pain of knowing this.

1:29:24 Because this is the thing the the long term effects of this on

1:29:29 Carly and Candice's family. It's untold.

1:29:34 Absolutely. So her stepbrother or half

1:29:37 brother, sorry, and her stepdad still live in Alice Springs and

1:29:42 you know, living, living their lives.

1:29:44 But this is it's huge the impact this had.

1:29:46 Absolutely. Forever.

1:29:47 For them, this is forever. Their lives are forever changed.

1:29:50 Yeah, yeah, Carly and Candelice were actually buried in the same

1:29:55 coffin. An extra wide coffin was made so

1:29:57 that they could be together forever, and they were buried

1:30:00 next to Carly's mom and Candelice's grandma in Alice

1:30:04 Springs. Yeah, I hope they're together

1:30:06 somewhere. I'm sure they are.

1:30:07 Yeah. Oh, yeah.

1:30:10 Speak one. It was.

1:30:11 It was. It was.

1:30:12 There's actually so, so, so much more to this case that we

1:30:15 haven't even touched on. I listened to a really great

1:30:21 audio book called The Lost Girls by Ava Benny Morrison about

1:30:25 this. You can purchase the book

1:30:27 through Amazon, but I just listened to it through audible.

1:30:30 If you want to really deep dive into this case, have a listen

1:30:34 or, or pick up the book and have a read because it's it's so

1:30:38 detailed. It'll get you, you can just be

1:30:42 be prepared for that because there's a lot of detail in the

1:30:45 book that I mean, it's absolutely horrific.

1:30:48 And I think similarly can be said of the court transcripts if

1:30:52 you get your hands on those. Yeah, it took me a bit to find

1:30:55 them actually. But once I did and and had a

1:30:57 read through, yeah, it's a lot. That's a lot, definitely a lot,

1:31:01 yeah. Next week's kind of.

1:31:04 Next week's episode's a little a little lighter.

1:31:06 Glad. You brought this stuff down

1:31:07 because I always forget. Yeah, we're actually doing Carol

1:31:11 Baskin, the Tiger King. Oh.

1:31:13 That's actually, I just literally like breathed.

1:31:16 It's just, that'll be, that'll be like, I mean, it's still

1:31:19 murder, but it's a lot lighter. A lot lighter, yeah.

1:31:24 And we can reminisce about our lives in 2020.

1:31:27 We're going to talk about stuff that episode, actually, before

1:31:29 we get into about somewhere I've been that we could go in these

1:31:31 holidays. Oh cool, that's.

1:31:33 Very reminiscent of Tiger Let's. Do it.

1:31:38 Cool, cool, cool. All right, Well, thank you,

1:31:39 everybody for joining us for another episode of Two Crime

1:31:41 Besties. As always, please, you know,

1:31:45 like, comment, subscribe, all of the things that the kids say

1:31:48 these days. We really appreciate it.

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1:31:57 For sure check your own socials. Stay curious.

1:32:01 Crime besties. Bye.