Episode 31 - Carole Baskin

0:15 Welcome back to Crime Besties to an episode 31 of our show. Thank you so much for joining us again. Oh, and I've got a new host, I think, with a a new voice. I know. Right, Yeah, apologies in advance. I, me and my eldest son, we have both just copped the dreaded lurgy this last week or bit over a week now. So we're just not feeling 100%. But you know, got a soldier for the sake of our two crime besties. So apologies. Get you, get you going. Oh. Absolutely sorry if you hear coughing in the background, I'll do my best to cover it up.

0:53 No, you're all, you're all good. It's very sexy. Oh, it's, it's quite deep actually, isn't it? It This morning I woke up and I was like, Oh my God, I'm gonna have to call Megan, let her know we can't record tonight because it was 10 times worse than this was horrible. I was talking to my sister-in-law and she's like, Oh my God, you sound terrible. I'm like, I don't feel bad anymore. No, I actually feel fine. But yeah, I mean, that's always good. It sounds worse than it is. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Have really copped it.

1:23 Yeah. Oh, we're fine. We're on the mend, so that's all that matters. How have you been this last week or so? Yeah, I've been good. I'm obviously getting to the tail end of the school holidays and everything and some people are back at work, you know, those that don't do jobs like I do when we get all the holidays. Oh, we're back in holidays again, 10. Weeks, it's all good. Unbelievable. Yeah, no, but no. But it's been good. No, I've been enjoying lots of been, you know, down by the beach and stuff and hanging out and everything.

1:51 We've had really good fun holidays, these holidays, actually, We've really enjoyed it, Yeah. That's so good. What about you? Well, yeah, we've been, we went away for a little bit and just camping and we did that and yeah, we've been doing sort of day trip type stuff. Yeah, we've spent some time. My brother lives near the beach, so we've spent some time down there. Yeah, Yeah. We haven't really done a huge amount because, yeah, as I said, for the last, it's been over a week that we've been unwell.

2:23 So that's definitely kept us in the house and around the house. But I'm looking forward. We've got what, a week and 1/2 or so left? Yeah, week and 1/2. Left now, yeah. So I'm really looking forward to doing a few fun things. I'm back at work SO and I work 3 days so I've got a couple of days a week extra where I can do a few bits and bobs with the boys. But you were saying you went to this adventure. Yeah, Enchanted Adventure Park, I think it's called. Like Yeah, you. Want to go? Yeah, Down by Arthur Seat was fantastic.

2:51 Like I've been there before with my boys, but then this summer, grandma's birth, Christmas present to the kids with to all the grandkids, the four of them were tickets to go there. So we had a we had a really good day. It was fantastic. My sister-in-law and my mom and and the four kids, you know, we just had a really great day. Like they're doing like this tree surfing thing, they go up in these really high, like I think one of them is like 10 meters off the ground, like tree climbing thing. That was amazing.

3:18 Watching kids do that and that, you know, they're so brave getting up there and doing it. It's incredible. And my my youngest too is typically one that does not separate, let alone go and do high rope things. He's the kid where you go to a place and his eyeballs like pop out of his head. Like that's cool. And then he goes and climbs up it, but then can't get back down. But so I was like, oh, terrified. He was gonna do that to me at this thing and he was gonna have to get somebody up there to try and get him down 'cause he'd want me to go up and get him.

3:45 But there ain't no freaking way that's happening. I ain't doing that. So yeah, no, but he did amazing. It was so good to see him get the confidence up to do that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And they've got these big tube things that go down these grass like it's cool down hills. Awesome. Oh my God, the amount of trips they went up and down that that hill. I cannot believe. I know my sister-in-law was like, I think she did. She's like four or five treks up the hill to go. Down you have to carry the tube with you.

4:10 You've got to drag the tube too, and so it's an effort. Oh, big time. They said she's look, they're not heavy, but it's like it's but it's a very steep hill like that. You've got to get them up. So it's pretty full on. Like she said the backs of her legs were absolutely killing them. Yeah. So a bit of a she yeah, she really put it out. She's a good. But it was such a good day, such. A good day. All right? I feel like I'm going to try and fit that in before let's go back. Highly recommend. Yeah. And I think we managed it to get there on the day it wasn't too busy too, which was.

4:38 Yeah, I think it could get pretty busy there, I think. Yeah. Maybe you'll go. Our kids have a curriculum day for their first day of school. Maybe you'll go that day. Probably a really good day. You probably absolutely have the place to yourself. Yeah, that'd be cool. Phenomenal. I might give that a go. Well. Just be careful of your kids. There, one of them in particular. The most accident prone child on this face of this earth. Yeah, I will. I'll be really careful. You. You can't. It's fine. I'll.

5:02 Be like you just make sure you're super harnessed in and we'll. Oh, that's the thing up on the tree climb thing. They're fine because they are. They're literally harnessed in the entire time. Nothing didn't go wrong there. It's the risky playgrounds have gone around, which, OK, they're awesome and it's good. Kids need that. Kids need absolutely. Yeah. So good. I highly recommend. The other thing I was going to tell the people is about how we are gluttons for punishment, maybe. So this afternoon we're recording this on a Friday night because, you know, hashtag school holidays and whatnot.

5:34 There's no way we could record if all the kids were here. Oh. No. Well, especially what we had cop this afternoon. Yeah, but they were desperate, weren't they, to record their own little podcast. So yeah, we got everything set up and and your two actually did a really good job. They had an idea of what they wanted to do. They were so excited to get on the mic. I love it. Maybe we can put a little I. Don't know, I was thinking really just do a little snippet. I won't. We won't like. Put the torture of it.

6:03 No, we won't. But maybe just a little snippet at the end. Yeah. Stay tuned if you want to hear that. Yeah, but yeah, my God, they loved. They were loving themselves sick 'cause they could see themselves in the camera. MMM. They think they're Youtubers or something, 'cause they're like, don't forget to like and subscribe. Don't forget to buy us a coffee. Into all of it, though, you know? Yeah. Like, you know, buy us a coffee. Like, Oh my God, they were into all of it. But yeah, I mean Brody's rap that he wrote.

6:30 Oh, that was incredible, actually. That was actually so. Good. He's left it here on the on the table for me, actually. It's bloody gorgeous. I might have to take it home with me. Oh, you. Absolutely should. You should. It's. So cute. Did you get did you get the bit where you know adults drawl? Yeah. Oh yeah. Kids roll. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Part of its charm, really. Oh, absolutely. Oh, that's so cute. That was so cool. So we enjoyed that this afternoon. Very loud. It was really turn the volume down when I do that edit.

6:58 Oh yeah, you're gonna have to normalize that audio for sure. And then your kids have gone off to their dads for the weekend now. And my kids, I don't know if you can hear them in the background, but they're playing with their father. They should actually be almost going to bed. I think they were doing a some sort of fortnight off between all three of them or something. Oh, this could last a while then. Well, I think it was a hard out at 8:00 PM. Oh, that's something, Yeah. We'll see how that all goes.

7:26 We'll see if we can still hear them in half an hour or so. All right. Should we get into today's case? During Let's jump on into today's episode. So today, I mean, oddly enough, actually I went and went to the movies this morning with my kids and I went and saw Mufasa The Lion King. But today we're actually talking about kind of the Tiger King. Sort of, sort of in a roundabout way. Because we're going to talk about Carole Baskin today. So it kind of brings back all of those lockdown, my memories come flooding back in of like watching the Tiger King on oh God in 2020.

8:01 Did you watch this during lockdown? I absolutely do. Same. I was like, I feel like I binge watched it. Yeah, in a day or two at the time. I don't know how I found the time to actually like, I mean, I know I had the time, but you know, the kids would have been around. I can't remember. Maybe we watched it over a couple. Of nights ago, they were probably in bed a bit earlier. Yeah, that's true. Yeah. So yes, it was intriguing at the time and then I realised when we were researching this that I actually had not watched the second season all the way through, right.

8:35 Not that it really pertains much actually to this case, but to Carol Baskin in particular. But yeah, well. She opted out to be involved in that at all because originally she thought that when they were doing that documentary of the first one, it was meant to be a reminiscent of Blackfish, you know, in terms. Yeah. For the big cats. Yeah. Because, you know, this whole idea was putting good together, a documentary that would make people then rethink how they interact with big cats and stop, you know, abusing these animals.

9:04 But that's not what ended up being. The documentary that was. She says that, right? I mean, we're gonna get into so much. She says that, Yeah. But yet she sat down and did these interviews and answered these questions that had sometimes nothing to really do with the cats. Yeah. So she has actively participated in. It's not like they've, I don't know. Yes and no. Heard anything? Did you watch the Louis? Through, yes, documentary, because I feel like watching that, you kind of get a bit of a different side of that's true, what happened.

9:34 That's true. And I think, yeah, to a degree, I think, yeah, there were definitely questions she was asked that would have made you go, hey, what's that got to do with it? Yeah. But I guess in the big scheme of things, you kind of go, oh, they've got to edit stuff, you know, like, I don't know what. Maybe maybe they managed. Maybe the producers were bloody good at getting her to talk and she was part maybe said things and then realized afterwards kind of going, hang on, wait, that wasn't what we were actually meant to be talking about.

9:55 I don't know. I don't know, but I don't know. I'm a bit on the fence about what she actually thought it was going to be. But by the time that that was aired and Season 2 was going to come, was going to be starting to be filmed, she was like, Oh no, no, no, I'm not going to be a part of it for many reasons, I think, but. Yeah, many of those reasons we'll be talking about tonight like she Oh my goodness, we. Better I guess we better like we should start this with a bit of a Ohio your cool cats and fitness she's.

10:28 So cringe worthy. Yes, she, yes. So she's released, we'll get to all of this, but she's released like she's got a YouTube channel and she's got, Oh my God, she's done so many different media appearances over the years. Yes, her demeanour, the way she dresses, the fucking flower crowns. I can't even. It's, I mean, but it's that whole, it's a whole other world. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I can't imagine owning. I mean, I've got a very large dog, don't be wrong, but I can't imagine owning these wild animals.

11:05 No. What, what draws people into that world to begin with? Because I mean, going looking at what I could find, she wasn't drawn into it originally from a protective point of view, no. So absolutely. I mean, I think she would say that she was. But it's very clear there's video footage of her encouraging people to have these animals and how to take on a wild animal. So it's certainly not where she really started from, no. So. The the Joe Exotics of the world, the the Tiger King and Carol Baskin. And then obviously in season 2, when you even more so, you get to know that Dawn Antel was that a dog Antel.

11:47 Dog Antel. Sorry. Yeah. Oh my God. I mean, they're all very weird. Different, very weird. A bunch of very. Cult like the whole that whole thing. Yeah, yeah, it's very interesting. All right, let's get into it. I'm a bit excited. Let's get into it. So Carol Baskin, as we know her, was actually born Carol Stairs. Jones Stairs being her middle name was actually her mother's maiden name. She was born on the 6th of June in 1961 to a very poor family. They, they weren't wealthy by any stretch of the imagination.

12:18 They lived in a in a caravan park, in a trailer park. And her family were quite religious, and they, they were fundamental Christians. And they were, I mean, I guess they had, they lived by a certain ruling because of that. Yeah. And it really was to the detriment of Carol in the end. At the age of 14, she was raped by three men at knifepoint. So they were these were three young teenagers as well, older than her but still in their teens. And they lived in this trailer park with her and they raped her at knifepoint.

13:04 Her family eventually found out about it. I don't know. Do you know how they found out? I think she told them. I think she. Did tell them from what I remember reading, yeah. But. Her family basically said, well, you must have been asking for it. And also you're now like damaged goods or more. Like, you're no good now. Yeah. So that kind of prompted her to leave home at the age of 15. So not very not very long after. Yeah. Her rape. I, I can't even imagine the state she must have been in. I think in some ways this also informs her actions potentially, or it's, I know knowing that now, I definitely look at her in a different way.

13:42 Like you think these experiences during, during a really fundamental time of her life, like a very important time in her life and the way her family didn't support her, that's transformative. That's that's life changing. Absolutely, yeah. So when she left home, she went to work at a department store and there she met her first husband. He was her boss. March her senior. Do you? I think it was like 6-8 years her senior. Oh, I didn't have it written down. But definitely her senior. Yeah, his name was Michael Murdoch, and she was only 17 years old when they got married.

14:25 Within a year, she was pregnant with their first or their only daughter named Jamie. This relationship between Michael and Carol was. Tumultuous abuse? Yup. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So. Physically, emotionally, psychologically, financially, the lot, Yeah. Abusing her from every which angle? Yeah. There are some, you know, anecdotes. And I mean, I guess it's worth probably noting that all of the stories that we hear are from Carol's perspective. But I mean, there's nothing to necessarily disprove that any of these things happened, although he does kind of potentially into the story again later on in life.

15:08 But we'll talk about you said

15:12 that. So there's, you know, they would have physical, verbal fight. There's a fight apparently. And this was this was quite a significant day in in Carol's story. But in 1981, they had a fight, and it was a bad one, according to Carol. And it got so heated that she felt like she really needed to escape that situation. Yeah. So she was actually preparing dinner at the time. She had a potato in front of her, so she threw a potato at his head and ran out the door. So she left baby Jamie at home with him and left.

15:52 She didn't have a car at the time. And so she went for a walk along the road. And what happened when she when she went along this road? So this is in Tampa, FL Blows my mind, doesn't it? Yeah. So she's what, 20 at this stage? Yeah. Yeah, she's 20. Yep. Yep. And so she's walking on the road and a car pulls up and driving the car is a man named Don Lewis. Don Lewis is married. And with this stage, with I think, yeah, believe by this stage he probably had three of his four kids. He did, yes. And he saw her walking on the road and pulled over next to her and said, you know, I'll look, you know, you look upset.

16:33 Jump in the car and we'll have a chat. She's like, oh, my God, no, not getting in the stranger's car. Good on her. He does a lap around, tries again. I think she says no again. He then does a third lap around. And on this third lap around, he decides to put a handgun on the passenger seat. And he says to her as he pulls up, There's a handgun there. You're you can pick that up and hold it to my head and, and we can, and then we can chat. I really want someone to talk to. How fucking weird. She then gets in the car and does that.

17:07 And she even says, like her, her recollection of this in interviews is she's like, well, then I thought, well, what have I got to lose? I've got a gun that I can hold at his head. So ha ha ha, I get him to say. That gun's not got no bullets in it, but the other one he's got does. I mean, it's, I mean, having said that, what is she, 18 years? No, she's 20. Sorry, 20 years old at the time. Yeah. So. Just. What the fuck now? It's probably worth noting right now as well. Yeah. At this stage, Don was 42 years of age.

17:37 He's 22 years her senior. This particular night, he'd also had a fight with his wife, Gladys, and he decided that he'd leave the house and go and see his girlfriend. On the way to seeing his girlfriend, he bumps into Carol, and he's like, well, she looks a bit. All right. Well, I just pop over and see whether I can ties her into the car. So once Carol gets in the car, where do they go? They go to a motel, yeah, and do it. Do it. Oh. God. She's 20 and he's 42. She's upset they're both married. What the fuck?

18:15 Hell, what is going through either of their heads I that one just gets me. But they continue seeing each other on the side. Like neither of them leave their partners. Not immediately. No 1990 before she leaves her partner, her husband and he leaves his wife and then in 1991 they get married. Yeah. So Carol, Carol, Carol actually left her husband after four years. Oh, sorry. And then she was single but still having this affair with Don. And at the 10 year mark after meeting is when Don left his wife to then be with Carol.

18:52 So at this stage, Don's 52, Carol's 30, and as you said, about a year after they officially got together because John had separated from his wife, they get married. And according to Don's first wife, that's not the only affairs he was having. Like, we're not we're not talking that, you know, he's had one girlfriend on the side and then replaced that one girlfriend with with Carol. Like this is the man who was, you know, doing this at left, right and center. His wife, he's so Gladys. His first wife actually said.

19:25 I'm pretty sure there were at least 25 that I can count. Yeah. And that's that she knew of. Oh. Man, why did she stick around too? Though because, well, she, she says she stuck around because she loved him so much. And every time she'd confront him about being with another woman, he'd he'd repent. He'd be like, I'm so sorry, I'll never do it again. And she just kept going back to him. I mean, I think money probably got. Into it was going to say. Because so Don was OK, let's talk about Don a bit.

19:54 So yeah, So Jack Donald Lewis was born on the 30th of April in 1938. He was raised by a single mum in an era where that just wasn't a thing. So he's had a unique upbringing in terms of, you know, society at the time, which. I find really then even harder to come by in terms of his womanizing, you know, and he's been raised by a single mum himself. I just feel like that's like what he clearly learnt nothing from his upbringing. Have you seen like, oh, this is getting really far ahead now, But a woman that he employed, when she's interviewed in Tiger King, she's like, I've been told he's like Anne McQueen.

20:32 Yeah, Anne McQueen. I've been told he's like a sexy addict. Didn't. She her comment was like, she was, I think I'm the only woman in his wildlife that he hasn't had an affair with. And it's the only time I was happy. I was. I was fat and ugly. Yeah. Plump. Plump and plump and unattractive or something like that. Yeah, it's very. She's so, she's so funny. Character she's. A real character. So Don was 15 years old and working at a grocery store packing groceries when he met 12 year old Gladys, his first wife, soon to be first wife.

21:05 Yep, 12 that's. Just. It's disgusting. They dated for three years. Sorry. For two years. So Don was so Jack. Donald Lewis, obviously, he goes by Don. By Donald. Don was 17 when they got married. Gladys was 14. Needed permission from their mums, who both were like, yeah, yeah, sure. Get married at 17 and 14. Oh. God, I just can't. Like what? What? I can't. You can't drive a car like you can't your. Child, can you open? A bank account even without parental. No, I don't think you can. I think you need to be 16 for.

21:45 All that. I mean, I know we're talking what, 60s here, but still, that was fairly. Oh, that's ridiculous. It's just not right. It's really not right. No, they were so married at 14 and 1711 months later they had their first child. So Oh my Gladys would have been 15. Yeah, when she was pregnant and no wonder actually. Now that makes sense because I remember seeing like them in interviews and I remember looking at them kind of which one's the mum, like, yeah, you know, because they're not that far.

22:11 There's not much age difference between. 14 to 15 years between them. Her and her eldest like. Yeah. God that's insane and. They do they look like. They do, they all, Look, there's like there's three, I think 3, three women sitting there in the interview. And I was kind of like, it took me like a few minutes to sort of work out which one was mum, you know? Yeah. Because yeah, they're all very similar. Yep. Oh God. Crazy. So after their first child, they went on to have two more girls and then they had a son who they adopted.

22:40 Yeah, a little bit later on. I couldn't find out too much. No, there's no. They adopted him or whatever you because at first I thought it sort of thought was he looking for a bit of an heir, you know, to his stuff. But that didn't really seem to be the case either. There was. I don't know what the reasoning behind any of that was, but. No, and that I actually couldn't find any information about him or what he's doing or where he's been. Or no no. So Don obviously decided that he did not want to be poor.

23:05 Yeah, and he was incredibly proactive in establishing himself. Kudos to him because he was self-made in the end. Yep, Although he was, the word that was used on him about him was a ruthless businessman. He was, you know, you, you did not stuff around with him. No. Yeah, but everything. He was also supposedly had a bit of a Midas touch. Everything he did do just happened to make money and he made no sense in a lot of ways. He made some odd decisions, but as you said, they worked out really well for him.

23:36 Yeah, he bought 5 dump trucks. Yeah, and he didn't even drive them. He just had had the driving them for him. Yeah, he, he did drive it a whole lot like a long distance truck in Tampa, FL He on the side when he was driving these trucks. So he owned these five dump trucks. He was then driving this whole on the side of that. He also had a washing machine repair kind of biz side business where he'd take old, you know, washing machines that didn't work. He'd fix them up and then he'd sell them. Yeah, you can't imagine there'd be a huge amount of profit in that.

24:13 But, you know, he, he was doing all this stuff. Yeah. He then progressed to used car sale, and we all know the reputation that used car salesman have. I feel like he would have fit that bill to a tee. Yeah, yeah. He then moved from that into real estate. And what he would do, and this is, I feel like this is important when we're thinking about things further on in his life. But he would actually buy bad mortgages, yes. And get people to pay him. So he'd buy these bad mortgages from banks and lenders and he would then get people to pay interest to him like 18% or something ridiculous.

24:53 That would just get them to foreclose. Every time because people couldn't afford, the reason they were bad mortgages is because people couldn't afford the mortgage, let alone the injured like this extraordinary interest. On top of that, they would then foreclose on their properties and he would sell them and obviously. Pocket the profit on that, yeah. Which is just awful. Like you're literally kicking people when they're down at their hardest like. I think that's important to keep in mind as we talk about this story.

25:21 He fucked people over left, right and centre. Yes. To make a buck. Yeah, to make a buck. And. Apparently, I think what I was reading was that he was worth a fair bit of money when he met Carol, but he actually made more of his money after meeting her and when they were married. And she did a lot to, she had a lot to do with this real estate stuff that he did. She was quite heavily involved in that, from what I could gather. Yeah. Is that what you sort of found too? Yes. Yes, she did. Yeah. Yeah.

25:48 So I mean, he was a self-made millionaire and as you said, by the time he met Carol, he was definitely well established. Yeah, people who knew him said he would bury money in jars in the backyard. Yes, he'd have gold like gold bars made and bury those. So yeah, in terms of what he was actually worth. Really hard to. Hard to quantify. Many people had different have different opinions. A lot of people said he was worth between about the five to $7,000,000 mark, but there are people who also believe he was worth as much as $20 million.

26:25 Yeah, that's it. I've seen the same. Yeah, really, really big discrepancies and I from we can get to this. Obviously there's reasons why I think that might be so. Yeah. So what he would do that is he would do all that with. He had a lot. So he was wealthy and had a lot of money. He would always carry a lot of cash on him in case he wanted to buy something. Did you know there was such a thing as a $500.00 bill? No, I didn't. Know that until I so I I'd read somewhere or heard somewhere that he'd had these he'd because apparently he used to dress like a pauper.

26:58 Yeah, he literally, I think he'd wear like his description of even when he was when he went missing was that he was wearing a Kmart T-shirt and blue jeans. Yeah, like that's how he was. He's a multi millionaire, but that's how he would dress. He would also go, he would buy his clothes from op shops and things. Yeah, it wasn't necessarily even a brand new Kmart T-shirt. Yeah. But yeah, like it. That blows my mind. Yeah, maybe also dumpster dive too, for food. Like, what the hell? Yeah, it's weird.

27:23 Go down and buy the restaurant, let alone the food inside it, but you're gonna go and dive in a dumpster? Yeah, really odd. Very, very. Strange behaviour, yeah. Very, very strange behaviour. Yeah. He's, he's a very, very interesting character. Isn't. He, Carol has described him as that, as all of his life that he was very eccentric. But then as time progressed, she has also though described him as potentially maybe developing something like Alzheimer's. So there was behaviour that was occurring that she identified no one.

28:00 And there's there was a doctor's report where it did sort of, you know, it spoke of this not so diagnosing, but that's the only one. And she was the one who took him to that doctor. Exactly. So there was obviously. She was in on that appointment. On the appointment so we have to sort of take this with a bit of a grain of salt, but she spoke about many things that he would do that were quite odd on top of his oddness like and in and inferring that maybe he was on the verge of Alzheimer's, but. I think it's worth noting, though, that she is the only person in his life who was close to him, and there were people who were very close to him.

28:35 Yeah, she's the only one who says this. Yeah. Everyone else is like, Nah, he was absolutely switched on. She said things like, oh, he would go dumpster diving and then forget where he was and didn't know how to get home or, you know, things like that. And everyone else who knew him had no experience of that whatsoever. Which I mean, I don't know, I can see both perspectives of that maybe being true but also not being true. So it's it's one of those ones where we can't, it's really hard to know. It is hard where the truth on that one is.

29:04 Absolutely. So as we were saying, Carolyn Dunn got married in 1991, year after they Don divorced from Gladys. They opened a wildlife rescue center called Wildlife on Easy Street just because they lived on Easy Street. Yeah, it was on Easy Street. Yeah, Carol describes this time. So they were looking to set up a cat rescue. So at the time in the States, it was legal for people to have big cats as pets. Yeah. And the way that that was facilitated was that the second a tiger cub or a baby cat, baby large cat was born, it would be removed from its mother because apparently if they'd had any time to bond with their mother, they would immediately become more aggressive.

30:01 And obviously that was something that then. Humans because they naturally want their mother. Yeah, Yep. And so Carol claims that they opened up this wildlife rescue because people would get these little baby tiger Cubs and then they'd grow very, very quickly and they'd have nowhere to go. So they would adopt or take in these animals. And they had, Oh my God, 10s of 10s of or hundreds. Well, it started with that they they got one bobcat was like, it was like a specially unique animal that they wanted at the time.

30:41 And then they decided they wanted more of them, so they were going to go and buy six more of these Bobcats from this guy who had a litter. And it turned out that when they got there that they that this place was actually breeding them for to make fur like fur fur coats and things like that. These Bobcats. So these so they were going to buy six of them, but the other fifty who were there, we're going to be used like skinned like. So apparently she turned around and said to Don, we can't take six of them and leave the rest of them here to be killed and die.

31:15 That's awful. So they just bought all 56 of them. Like what the hell do you do with 56 Bobcats? Did they even have the facilities at that time? I think so, no. I mean, this property, wildlife on Easy Street, it was like 40 acres or something. It was a huge property, but it didn't at the start. Definitely it did not have the infrastructure to accommodate all of these animals. Well, let's just say I mean, they shouldn't be living. In cages anyway, No, they're wild animals. And I think there was some a bit of argy bargy between Carol and Don because Don actually wanted to start breeding them for the purposes of then selling them because he was, I'm going to use the word entrepreneur, but he was obviously fiscally motivated.

32:00 Yeah. Yeah, and he saw what he could make out of them, That's what he. Yeah. That's what he wanted to do, whereas Carol at this time was then shifting more into. Protective. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Wildlife rescue type work. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So they, they ended up with, I mean, endless, countless numbers of these big cats. I mean, it's extraordinary how many there are. Yeah. In America. And there's more in America than there are in the wild in their natural habitat. Like that's insane. Bizarre in the Tiger King documentary.

32:34 Did you find it absolutely fucking weird? Bit the whole thing. Or the whole thing is weird, but you know, So when they've got this wildlife on Easy Street, which they then named Big Cat Rescue later on down the track, Yeah. And in order to run such a large operation, they need volunteers or they need, they need people. They should be fucking paying these people, obviously. But. Yeah, but I mean, this is the thing. I mean, they cost money to feed these cats, doesn't it? It's a vicious cycle. I mean, how do you how do you then have.

33:05 I mean, my dog costs a lot of money to feed and he, you know, it's one. Yeah. How do you how are you feeding hundreds of these animals? Yeah, without volunteers, I guess, like. Yeah. And raising money in some way do. You think the it's the fucking weirdest thing you've ever seen, the way the hierarchy of the volunteers works. So what they do is they come in, look, do not quote me on the colors of their shirts because I didn't write it down, but they come in and they say a light blue shirt, right?

33:34 And so if you're a light blue shirt, you're a shit kicker. You are. You've done less than a year's worth of volunteering. And some of these people volunteer for like 50 or 60 hours a week. Yeah, yeah, it's insane. They, they're drawn to this wanting to be time be with not so much 'cause I think it's look, I'm an animal lover. I I do get on a degree of like people going, Oh my God, the opportunity to be in their presence and be with them. I actually do understand that. OK, yeah. I mean, I was that I was that kid.

34:08 I would have volunteered for something like this at 1617, like I was, I would totally have done that. Yeah, I was that kid. But yeah, so I do get it. But then it's like using the taking that for an advantage of that passion for someone and then for the wrong reasons. And then everyone's then striving to get the next colour T-shirt and the next colour T-shirt and to the detriment of their own lives. Like some of them are like, oh, yeah, I live on a camper trailer just over there. Because that way I can, you know, get into work a bit earlier and be here longer.

34:41 And, and Carol goes past and she's like, oh, well, I don't even know who you are. And then she's like, oh, I only know the ones who've been here 5 plus years and who've invested 1000 plus hours or something like that. Yeah, like what the fuck? Yeah. And then on the other extreme of that is like Joe Exotics one where they live out of the the Walmart truck, living and eating the food that's meant to be delivered to feed the animals they pick over that first. So disgusting to eat. Yeah, so Joe Exotic gets the used meat.

35:12 So any meat that's like returned to Walmart or like people have taken out a shelf and then been like at the cash register being like, Nah, don't want it, you know, used. By date back has happened to have. Clicked like it that gets stored and I think Walmart would deliver it once a week or something and it was meant for the cats. Because they. Started Tigers. And or food that's maybe. A little bit out of date, yeah. Joe Exotic would make his staff pick through what was there and eat the meat. That's.

35:46 What? That's what they would cook up and eat for themselves first like. Oh, I heard a rumor as well. I don't, I don't know if this was in the documentary or not, but that they would then use that food also in the restaurant that was on site. And that's true. Is it true? Yeah. Oh, my God. I mean, I wouldn't need an establishment like that anyway, but but still. Seriously. I mean, it looks so fucking filthy that place. Oh. This is it, the whole none of it. As I said to you, there's a zoo a bit similar to this here in Australia.

36:19 Oh yeah, tell us about that. We can't name it, can we? Can I don't, maybe don't name it, don't know. But you've been to a similar. Yeah, well, maybe not. Not to the extreme, not. Quite to this extreme and I don't know how what their volunteer system is like or whatever, but it still blows my mind that it's not we're near. We don't have this similar sorts of thing go on here in Australia. Where is that? And that's why I think this one stood out to me. So obviously of like this is Tiger King esque.

36:43 You need to know where near to that level. Yeah, yeah. But different, very different. Yeah. You were saying you and your mum still laughed to this day about that pace. Or you just mention it to my mum and just it was the plastic chair in with the the cats that they were lions and yeah, there were plastic chairs and they go someone come and have their lunch in here or something. That it was really weird. It was really weird. Just have a tiger back up and sit on it. So Don absolutely loved Costa Rica.

37:13 Yep, had an affinity for Costa Rica. Yep, he wanted to move all of their animals down from the big cat rescue. We had a girlfriend down there too. Well. He did. Of course he did. He wanted to move all of the animals down there and start a zoo. One thing I did find really gross that I read about was the fact that he would more he'd go down in Costa Rica more often if Carol was menstruating. Are you fucking kidding me? No, I'm not. That is so disgusting. Yeah, So what? She had a period and he'd fuck off down Costa Rica?

37:45 Yeah.

37:48 What if his girlfriend had a period? Oh. Obviously they went on a line. That is so fucked. I did not know that. Yeah, that's disgusting. Gross. God, he's so gross. Yeah. While Don was down in Costa Rica, especially sort of in the early days of the, you know, easy Street Rescue, Carol would have a vet come in and spay the animals while he was down there and not tell him about it because he was still. Wanting to breed? Wanting to breed them, establish this zoo, make money from it and. Zoo then is it?

38:24 Like it is, it's absolutely not. It's awful. Yeah, absolutely not. And Carol, obviously, by this stage, you know, she decided this was not the way that she wanted things to go. So yeah, she's, you know, had them spayed without his knowledge. Yeah, she was definitely doing bits and peasant behind his back and yeah, making decisions about that things, those things for herself, which, yeah, don't blame her. So I think we're probably at the stage now where, OK, let's we're in August 1997, right? So we've mentioned Anne McQueen already.

39:00 Anne McQueen was Don's oldest friend. They'd never had a sexual relationship, as we've previously stated. Yeah, but they were very, very close. Yeah, she was the person who he went to with everything. She knew everything and had ever had possession of things like that. She she was on top of it all business wise, personally, everything, everything. Yeah, he for some reason selected her to run his books and he trained her and her loyalty 100% was with him and she did everything she did, she did for him and for the betterment of of him and his business.

39:37 She was his trustee, the executor of his will. And in August of 1997, sorry, in sorry. In June of 1997, he gave her an envelope and said to her, don't open this until like, you'll know when to open this. Yeah, you don't need to open it now. I just need you to hold on to this. You'll know when the right time. She was like, when will I know? And he's like, you'll know if it's the right time to open it. Yeah, yeah. And so she was like, OK, so she's tucked it away in, in, you know, with, in with all the other important documents.

40:14 Around the same time, he told Ann that he wanted to divorce Carol. And it wasn't an easy thing to do. Like, I mean, I guess, well, you know. Because he didn't want her getting anything. No, none of them. That's why it was money. It was all yeah. But I mean, I guess divorce is never easy, no, And sometimes what it's easier to stay with a person. Maybe they had this, you know, wildlife rescue park. Like how would you even think? Like how would you even come to giving that up? You know, they had a lot of assets in common and it was it would have been so freaking messy.

40:54 And as you said, he also then didn't want her to have anything, even though a huge, a vast amount of his wealth that he'd accumulated, he'd accumulated while he was married. Yeah. To her. Not just with her, but married to her, yeah. I mean her, I think her name was on like the some of the real real Realty business side of things as well like. So I think she was the driver in that, yeah. Really. So I think that was like, that was a huge that that really tipped them over in terms of how much money they were making.

41:24 And I think that meant that, yeah, he wasn't able to just split from her and go, oh, yeah, you have that or, you know, I'll take half of that because he was like, no, you're not getting any of it. When actually she did contribute and she did participate in in that growth of that wealth. Yeah. For sure, and I think she was quite the savvy businesswoman herself. Yeah, I think she's she doesn't come across the brightest tool in the shed at times, but I think she might be. Yeah. And when she applies herself, I mean, yeah, we'll get to a bit more of this later on, but if she, if she applies herself and puts herself into it, she's, she can be very successful.

41:57 Absolutely, yeah. On Friday, August 15th in 1997. Oh. Can we just go back two months prior? To that oh Yep, sorry. Yeah. So as he's talking about wanting to divorce her. So in about June of that of 1997, he actually applied for a restraining order with the court, which was denied by the courts. And this is where I think we sort of come into that crossroad of whether or not, you know, that Carol was sort of saying that it was his Alzheimer's, that that was maybe ticking into certain things that he thought she was doing things when she wasn't and was.

42:34 Yeah. So battle very whatever reasons, which would be very unusual for a court if he was saying that she was, she was saying he was, she was going to kill him and that he was scared of her, you know. And so he wanted this restraining order. But for whatever reason, and we can't find the court documents and no one knows exactly what the judge's decision on this was and why, but he decided that there was no need for a restraining order. I have seen this. Oh. You've seen it, Yeah. There's like literally you can on online, there's like just the snippet of the bottom part of the court document.

43:06 So everything else is redacted and it's like the the judges reasoning, Yeah. And it was lack of evidence, yes, Yeah. Yeah, because he's sort of what the inference of like that was, apparently. Is that her just saying, oh, you know, I want to kill you doesn't actually mean that she's going to kill him like that. Well, we need to be as, as Don's lawyer says, he's like, we've got free speech. So you can say you're going to kill someone, but that doesn't mean you're going to kill them. So you can't actually be persecuted for that.

43:35 That's it. So but but he walked away from that court and if he was genuinely scared of her killing him, would he not have then gone and moved into somewhere else and not lived with her? Nope. He went and moved back into the same He slept in the same bed as her. He lived in the same house as her from that day for two months before this next event. So was there much in it? Was was it? Was the restraining order really required? I don't know.

44:06 I don't know. But then this happens. So like my thought is yes. But anyway let's get into this. So Friday, Friday the 15th of August in 1997 and tries to ring Don and can't get a hold of him she needs. So as far as Anne is aware, Don has gone taken some cars down to Costa Rica to sell. Well, he was. Yeah, he was planning on taking them. I don't think he had taken all of them yet or something. Anyway, Anne needed to do some paperwork for it. She needed the VIN numbers or something. Yeah, so that she could do the paperwork to transfer the deeds or whatever down to.

44:44 Costa Rica. Costa Rica, yeah. And this had been done many, many times before, so Don knew that he needed to provide this information to Anne at some point, but she hadn't received it from him. She tried calling him. He never if he ever didn't answer her calls, he would then always call back or make contact with her in some way. She didn't get any response from him for a couple of days. So on on the Sunday she calls Carol and she's like, I'm trying to get a cold of dawn. Where is he? And Carol's like, well, I actually haven't seen him since yesterday.

45:21 Was it?

45:26 I think the last time she saw him was the 17th. Yes, I haven't seen him since yesterday. And, and and she, Carol says to Anne, do you think I should call the police? And Anne's like, yeah, you think like if he's missing. Yeah, if you haven't seen him either, yeah, call the police. So Carol kind of has to then call the police, Yeah. So she reports him missing on the 19th of. August. Yeah, sorry. She says that she last saw him on the morning of the 18th. She reported him missing at 1:30 PM on the 19th.

45:59 Yeah, yeah. And that well that, yeah, they're basically saying that he that the disappearance date is the is August 18th. Yeah. The last known actual physically seen cited him other than Carol is the 17th of August. And I don't know that Carol's actually even said that she has seen him physically. She's only spoken to him, maybe on the phone, no. No, she saw him. No, she said she saw him. So on the morning of the on the morning of the 18th, this is what she claims happened. Yeah. She's left home at 3:00 in the morning.

46:31 That's right. Sorry. To go and get milk by product for the cats. I don't even know what milk by product is, but whatever. Milk by product from the cats? From a supermarket. What supermarket's selling that at 3:00 AM in the morning? Fucking weird. Yeah. And I actually don't know. I couldn't find anything to see whether this was a normal pattern of yeah for her. So I don't actually know whether she went at 3:00 every. That was Monday morning. That's when you went and go. Go pick that up. Yeah, I don't know.

46:59 On the way home from this supposed trip to the supermarket, her car breaks down. Yes. And a sheriff's car pulls in to sort of help her or see what's going on. And one of the sheriff's is actually her brother. And anyway, whatever transpired, the other sheriff actually drove her home. I don't know whether her brother was helping her sort out a card, not sure. And she claims that that morning at 6:00 AM. So this sheriff's deputy has dropped her back at her property somewhere around a little after 3:00 AM Yeah.

47:35 She claims that she saw Don at 6:00 AM because and he was supposedly leaving for Costa Rica in this car hauler. Yeah. So he was meant to drop off some real estate signs to his lawyer's office? Yep. At about approximately 6:00 AM. Yep. Which they they did. They were dropped off. But no one saw him do that? No, but yeah, you might. Yeah. I think you might have actually seen him before he's left the house. But he wasn't seen physically being the person drop off the signs. Yes, but they were dropped off.

48:06 So there's only no one else saw Don other than Carol on that date? On that date, Yes. So we've got no proof of what her interaction was or anything like that? Yeah. Only her word that she saw him that morning, because no one else did. Yeah. And he, she claims when she's interviewed by police and when she's interviewed by every media outlet. And you will see this if you watch Tiger King. You will see it if you watch any Carol Baskin, anything that has to do with Don Lewis. Yeah. She's claims that he said to her, yes, I've got to leave early, early, early.

48:38 Yeah, and she kind of like rolls her eyes when she says that, like early, early, like, And I just look at that and I'm like, the behaviour to me is weird. Yeah, there's a real like when you hear it when she gets interviewed about Don unless and like majority of those interviews that I've that I've seen of her being interviewed about that is beyond 2000, you know, like sort of stuff that there's a real like over talking about it, like over it kind of attitude from her that comes across. And I don't know whether that's a personality trait of hers.

49:14 I mean, we don't know this person or whether yeah, she just she's genuinely exhaust exasperated about talking about it. You know, it's like, it's just it doesn't come across well for. Her. No, no, not at all. No, not at all. It's it's really weird. Yeah. Apparently Don told Carol to get Kenny, who was like a he. Was like a handyman. Like a handyman farmhand. Kind of. Did all the odds and odds and ends of like run, run errands, all the. Time. Yeah, he was an employee. Anything that anything that Don needed doing, Kenny was the man.

49:47 Yep, to get the truck ready to leave early, early, early to Costa Rica the next day. Yeah, yeah. So he was supposed to be leaving for Costa Rica on the 19th. Yeah, yeah. Yes, So bizarre. So, yeah, at this point, Don's missing and Anne's like, oh, I think this might be the time for me to open this envelope. Yeah. And that's when Anne discovers that Don had applied for the restraining order was contained within that envelope. So this definitely arose and suspicions, didn't it? Because although she and Don were very close and Anne had a particular knowledge of their relationship and that things weren't great and but she did not know that Don had applied for this restraining order.

50:35 Against Carol, I think she obviously, yeah, she knew that there was divorce on the cards, yeah, but didn't know that Don was, yeah, feeling that he was unsafe by any means. Yeah. And what Anne read in the in that documentation was that Don felt like Carol was going to kill him. He mentioned several times that she'd made two particular threats that were quite pointed. And he also mentioned the fact that she had access to a revolver and that he couldn't find his own revolver. His own revolver had got his own, not revolver.

51:13 He had a different kind of gun. I don't know, guns. He had a different kind of gun that had gone. He didn't know where it was. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. Very interesting. Yeah. So the police are like, all right, we've got this missing person. The two people closest to him really are Carolyn. And so let's let's dive deep. Let's see where where this leads. And excuse me, and was incredibly cooperative. She did a polygraph. She answered every single question. She allowed them to search her house, her car, anything they wanted.

51:48 She was a completely open book. Carol did not cooperate. Not which the the polygraph, I mean, so yeah, she says to this daily. I mean, it looks on the surface like she's not she's not cooperating. And just about the polygraph I'm OK with because as she she has stated, you know, after the fact and everything like that was the instruction from her lawyer was to not do the polygraph 100%. The thing is, you shouldn't do a polygraph because they're not admissible in court. And if you're I mean, she's just had her husband go missing.

52:24 You don't know what where she's at and what's going on. And like what's, you know, your body wise in terms of your reaction to a very stressful situation. Something may come off up on that that isn't showing truth of like, you know, whether or not you're telling lies about whether or not you've killed your husband. So you don't want that being recorded in some way and then used and then used against you. Like so I do agree that OK, but there's other aspects of this that she didn't participate in that as she should have.

52:53 She also did things that were so freaking questionable. Yeah. A week after he disappeared, she emptied Don's office and took literally everything out of it. Yeah. So this is also the office that Anne worked in. So I have another theory in all of this though. OK, tell me in a SEC. But she cut off the water and power to this building a week after he disappeared. For all she knew, he was in Costa Rica and was coming back. Yeah, yeah. Go on, what's your theory? OK, so Don's car the following on the 20th was found at the airport, right?

53:29 Yeah. So his van that he drove on the regular basis, this was his his go about town car was found parked at a very rural airport. Unmanned. Airport unmanned airport and this airport was a bit dodgy, right so you could get a plane fly out of that airport without signing anything, without saying who you were and where the plane was and where it was going I. Think if you were following Civil Aviation, you know, guidelines, you should have lodged a flight plan and whatever, but you could easily just not.

54:02 Yeah. Because there's no one there actually tracking you or knowing what you do. And they were just like, there wasn't even a hanger there. They were just planes lined up on the side of the runway. Yeah. And don't own. Don't own a majority of. Them several of those planes. So he was known for just, and he was known for just buying, randomly buying planes. It was one of these things that he just would spend a bucket load of money on at the drop of a hat. He'd also sell them though he'd do them up and sell them.

54:26 So again, it was another revenue stream for him of of course. Or would he just do them up for other reasons to be able to fly and do stuff so? What do you think he was doing with them? Drug runs? Yeah, maybe. But, but okay, so the biggest plane that they had at that airport, which he had access to, in order to get that plane to Costa Rica, I would need for refuelling. Doesn't have to go to Costa Rica. Where's it going? So this is the thing, OK, So he owned not just planes at that airport, he owned many, many, many planes, right?

54:56 And he bought and sold them as well. So I think this is my theory. This is my theory that I am most in love with. I've got many, I have many, but this is my most, most, I think. Theory of what that has gone on here, yeah, is that you literally to get to Costa Rica, you have to island hop like fuel wise and things, right. So and you're not gonna take one plane and do that with the drugs and keep it in one plane. Like there's this whole you watch a movie called American Made and you can find out how they do all this.

55:22 Right. So what my thought is, is that he has loaded up his plane ready to go and pick up drugs from a point potentially, right. Not necessarily going all the way to Costa Rica or, you know, anywhere else. Like so he's potentially just flying, doing that first hop to collect or to drop off or whatever. So yeah, because he would have gone to go to Costa Rica. Yeah. He flew out of a completely different airport on a completely different plane. That's so he wasn't doing the flight to Costa Rica from there.

55:50 According to Carol. Sorry. According to Anne, every time he went to Costa Rica, he flew commercial out of Miami. Yeah, exactly. So he's going down to Miami, going down, you know, via Miami to Costa Rica on commercial and he's got his business contacts down there for, you know, all sorts of things, one maybe being drug runs, but then out of that. But how are you? How are you proposing he got the drugs down there? So he's bringing them into America. OK, so how do you OK, how did he get so. He's got planes that he's got other people flying.

56:21 There's not just his planes, right? So he's got a whole system going, a whole drug. Operation a full narco. Full narco, right? I'm on. I'm totally old boys. But I think all that, I think this in some ways is a little bit innocent in that I think he's got this whole drug operation happening, right. And I think Carol is aware of it, right? So she's cleared out that office to make sure that there is nothing there incriminating in terms of that stuff because she doesn't want to get not more not so much like to protect on, I don't think.

56:51 I think more to protect herself and that being caught up in it. So I think he's flying this plot, this plane somewhere over the Gulf, something's gone wrong with the plane and he's crashed it because he's known for crashing planes, right? He'd crashed three. He didn't have a license anymore because it had been revoked. So he'd, he'd had two like very minor, well, crashes, but I packed it up. Major one. Yeah, he had major one, but so I looked up on the FAA where he can find his license and it doesn't actually state why it's been revoked.

57:20 But then you can go into another, another link altogether and you can find out what all the crashes are. Not all of them are reported, but there was quite a bit in there of his crashes. He's had quite a number of crashes and some and then you got to consider the ones that he hasn't even reported, which from what I could gather read it mainly people and they've found exactly his crashes. But like actual pilot saying that yeah, there's definitely evidence there of a lot more, a lot worse. So, yeah, so I think he's done a drug, he's gone to, you know, Island top, get the drugs and he's crashed the plane or hit someone who and there's been some sort of incident where, you know, like, yeah, someone's shot him, whatever, being killed, murdered, yeah, or just had a plane crash and crashed in the middle of the Gulf.

58:07 And that's that's why he wasn't hiding the car and that's why the car was parked there. So you know openly that he was just leaving out of the airport because the plan was he was coming back. Oh, crazy. I like this theory because the other thing I was just thinking is, and this ties into the fact that Carol knows about it all, is that she also had her pilot's license, Yes. And the other thing is, I think less than 12 months before Don disappeared, yes, she also became a master parachute Packer, Yes.

58:36 What the fuck out of nowhere? Since when has she parachuted? She never has, not officially. Not. So why would she need to become a master parachute Packer, and why did she need her pilot's license? Start the drug runs. And she was loving these. Other people that were doing it and said, and so she didn't have to. So she wasn't using it, but she had the ability to fly a plane. Because that's my another theory I have is that yeah, she flew the plane and dropped him off somewhere over yeah, the Gulf or whatever.

59:01 But I honestly don't know that I'm not convinced that she actually murdered Don I that's the drug run 1 is my favorite theory. I do think that that's more like and when you think of the picture of who he was yeah as a person, I would not put put it past a person of that character to the go pull yeah make a make 1,000,000 bucks out of doing this done. I'm not. Couldn't care less about the legalities of it. Yeah. The, the thing that like when Carol talks about his flying and like she proposes that what might have happened to Don is that he's gone in a plane and he's tried to fly to Costa Rica and something's happened to his plane over the Gulf of Mexico, right?

59:43 This is this is a, a theory that Carol puts out there and she's like, because he knew how to fly under the radar. That's all he did. She's no. But there is no flying under the radar. There is no such thing. If you're flying above sea level, you're not flying under the. You can't fly under the. Radar stuff at certain points, yeah, I think they wouldn't be picked up on the tower. I think you can be picked up almost anywhere if you're flying, if you're above the ocean, I think, or above sea level. You just don't ping like it's not.

1:00:13 It doesn't pop up on their little on their little radars. I don't know that that's. True, Peter I. Need to ask Peter, I should have spoken to him about this before he. Recorded, but I'm sure that is a thing that you can fly under. Fly low, you fly low and you can avoid. Actually, I don't think that's a thing unless you're like flying very close to like mountains or something. Yeah, yeah, I don't know. Don't know. But anyway, that just, I don't know. That sounded real SUS to me. Yeah, but that was definitely, I mean, yeah, if he's doesn't sound like he was the greatest pilot on Earth, No.

1:00:45 And so I I think that innocently in that respect, I actually think he's had a plane crash and died. I mean, we just haven't found the body in the plane wreckage. Which I guess if he's flying over the Gulf of Mexico, chances are. And where? Would you if he won't start when the plane wasn't registered as even leaving that airport, You know, you don't know where the flight path was, you don't know which island he was going to, so you wouldn't even know where to start to look anyway. Yeah. Or on the other end of that flight, something's gone on with the transfer over of the drugs and and he's gotten killed in a, you know, interaction there.

1:01:17 But that's my, I feel like the that nothing else adds up as quite as much as that. Yeah, Yeah. But. Although, all right, let's now talk about John's will and powers of attorney. Yeah. So now that I go also, yeah, this is a bit of a spanner in that theory in a way. In a way, in a way, although I could actually there are, there are probably, probably plausible reasons for yeah, this as well, if we're going down that path. But Anne being the executor and trustee, the will that she knew was written in one way.

1:01:53 And then obviously the office is cleared out and in the office was the will and powers of attorney for Don. Carol then presents the will to the family and to the attorney, and it's not the one that Anne was Privy to. No. And it has some really weird wording to it. Yes, it does, but then if Even so, the weird wording that we're talking about is it uses the word if I happen to disappear. It says in the case of my disappearance, yeah, Carol gets everything, yeah. So yeah, that's a, it's a very weird wording to use, particularly in the circumstances of like, who who knows they're going to disappear.

1:02:39 You, in the case of my death, in the case of my disability, whatever. Yeah, but disappearance, No, not too many people want to predict their disappearance and. Not many people disappear. Yeah, no. So and particularly when like in this situation, obviously we don't have a body, we don't have evidence of really anything at all happening. He has disappeared, so, yeah. And so it is a very interesting one that. But I guess if you're running drug runs, you could get captured. You could get like. So maybe disappearance was on his mind.

1:03:18 I don't buy that. I don't know. I think. I think Carol's doctored his will. Yeah. And she knows he's disappeared, so she's written that into it. And look on on that. I mean, I don't believe that she murdered her husband. I could be very much persuaded that she has falsified documents to ensure that she got things after I I think there is, you know, like, no doubt she falsified these documents. Yeah, which I and I don't think 1 equates to the other in terms of like, if, you know, if she's done that, that she had to have killed him.

1:03:48 I. I can't. I I'm with you. I'm with you on that. I I totally understand that. Yeah, but it doesn't. You know what kind of a dad who was close with his children, he was still close with his ex-wife too. They still had. A very, very. Weirdly, they still had a very close relationship. Yeah, he for sure didn't disinherit his children like. No, that that's yet wrong and I think that's wrong from Carol if she doctored that well. She she says that he did not want his children to get anything, that he wanted her to get all of it and she felt that was unfair so she wanted to give them 10%.

1:04:28 I do you know what? When reading Hero comes. How these heroes can be all types of people, can't they? Yeah. Look, I could come at the fact that maybe he was that much of A prick that he'd say, you know, I don't want my kids inheriting this. Why? But that that's because he's for it. No, No, there's not. But I think that he's the kind of guy, from what I I've read about him and what I know about him now, to be like, I have to do it on my own. You can go fucking do it on your own. I don't come at the fact that he would have gone.

1:04:58 I'm gonna give everything to Carol. Yeah, because he wanted to divorce her. Yeah, like he didn't want her to get anything. He was more likely to have gone Kenny, you know. Yeah, a good mate, My handyman. He's a mechanic bloke. What's his name? Dale Daley. Yeah. Dale live lively. He has some had some dosh. Yeah. Rather buried in a backyard somewhere, I reckon than anyone getting it. Yeah, that's. I honestly think that's that's the. I I disagree disagree with that. I think he would want his children to have it because when despite the fact he was a total tight ass and would wear these $1.00 T-shirts and $20 jeans or whatever, he did give his children money he did throughout their lives.

1:05:38 That anyway. Yeah, he'd given them money like he helped them buy houses, he helped them with their businesses. He he did give them money along the way. So I just don't think, I don't think he would have disinherited them. And his wife Gladys, who I know, she obviously sees the best in him. Fuck only knows why, but she also says like there is no way he wouldn't have left them at something. Yeah, Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I can. I can come at that, that Carol's. Yeah, she's totally there. Allegedly, she has stopped these documents.

1:06:14 Yeah. It's it's so bizarre, Don. So Kenny the handyman, he claims in the in the Tiger King that the last words Don said to him were If I can pull this off, it'll be the slickest thing I ever did in my life. Which? Is why I also think it was drug runs. But wait for it. Because. Kenny then financially gained from after after this after the Tiger King Ed The first season Ed Carol sold Kenny $150,000 worth of real estate for $9980. Why? $20 shy of 10 grand, which needed which, Yeah, needs to be declared.

1:07:03 Yeah. Why you? I don't know. You tell me why. Right, OK, well, right. Did he? Did he, he helped him do something. I watched interviews with him. On top of that, he also, she also then in the subsequent years gave him another and gave him, not sold him, gave him another $300,000 worth of property. So she's pretty much like, given him potentially more than she's ever given the children, Yeah. It'd be close. It'd actually be close. Yeah. So what you're saying is did was that her paying him to say that to well and get rid of the body or something?

1:07:45 That this is my theory. Yeah, this is my front. Runner. That's your front runner. But I also really like your theory. I wouldn't be. I wouldn't. Well, OK, maybe we can combine the two because I actually feel like Kenny knew all about the drug run and was involved in all of that too. Yeah. So I think that that if that, if that's what was going on, I reckon a whole lot of shit needed to be covered up so that yeah, Carol and him potentially went then connected to it. I just thought, what if Carol and Kenny were like, Don's come back with the money and they've been like, well, we'll take this 1,000,000 bucks and we'll just top Don.

1:08:23 Nah, because I think he didn't make no, I reckon the drug runs were going on for a long, long time. I think that was a long term operation. But what if he came? Why? Why did this one trigger an issue? Oh, you think? Yeah, it. Could have simply been a plane issue. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or it could have been drug runs go wrong all the time. Yeah. Could it could have been some Dick on a plane that's giving him the the stuff who's gone. No, I'm not handing it over to you. I'm going to take it and I'm going to make the money out of it.

1:08:47 Yeah, You know what I mean? Like, who knows? The detectives in this case also, like, really dropped the ball. Yeah. So, you know, Don's reported missing. They find his van at the airport. They let Carol take it home. Take it home. Just sit in the, in the in the. Two days, for two days, two days later, they go and look at the van and it's been wiped clean. There is one fingerprint found, and that is of the mechanic who'd recently serviced the. Vehicle four days earlier. He he goes, of course my fingerprints were on it.

1:09:17 I said it fingerprints should be everywhere over it. Yeah, because he he was interviewed by a guy and he said do you wear gloves when you do your work? You know, and he goes no. Why would I do that? Look at my hand. Yeah, no, he goes. No, no, my handprint, my fingerprint should have been all over that car. Like, yeah. And he'd done. He'd done something which meant that he needed to be inside and outside the car. Yes, exactly. Yeah, he said now. It should have been. It should have been more. They just found one fingerprint in that entire car and it was like on the center, like console bit.

1:09:47 Yeah, yeah. Interest. Yeah. Was it being wiped down for drugs? I don't know. In the car, Yeah. For drugs. Or anyway, in the car they found Don's keys and a briefcase and I don't think the briefcase had anything of noting it that I can no that I could ascertain there's. Nothing else but but again, what was in there before it had been left at Carol's place for two days too exactly, so who knows? Who knows? Who that was, that's a major drop of the ball. But like, I mean, and I, I think somebody will also talk about the fact that Carol's brother who was in, he's obviously a police officer.

1:10:25 I'm not only a police officer, I think it's a sheriff. So fairly highly ranked, you know, that he he potentially had some sway in the investigation. I don't know. Don't know if that's Carol says that her and her brother aren't close. Yeah, that there's what I find it a bit interesting. She'd say something like, you know, I left home at 15 and he would have been 9:00. So we went close, but I'm like. Yeah, but you still had nine years with him. Yeah, and he's still your brother. Yeah, so, but she rains, they're not close and and everything that he wouldn't have done that for her.

1:10:54 But who knows? Again, it's hard to know. The other interesting thing is the mechanic that serviced that van claims that Don wanted him to go with him on this trip. To Costa Rica, to Costa Rica, which it tells me like 100% he was expecting to come back from this trip. Because I know there's obviously a in the second arguing they talked about the fact that, oh, Don's alive and well in Costa Rica. Yeah, there's absolutely nothing that supports that. No, none whatsoever. That that the letter that you kind of see a picture of in the in the documentary has been proven to not be it.

1:11:28 Was first doctored. Yeah, yeah, it was fabricated. Fabricated so and so that was picked up a lot in the media that Don and even I mean even Carol was very openly speaking about it saying I've been found alive and well in Costa Rica. It's there's been nothing to say that's been supported and I don't think that that's what has happened because as you know you're saying that he had plans of being of being around the following day or so to leave to Costa Rica. Not on that day going to Costa Rica. He wouldn't have been saying stuff like that to people and hey yeah come down with me and you know hang out with my lady friends.

1:12:00 Exactly yeah. So I don't think that's that's what's going on at all no. And and the fact that it would take, as they say, multiple island hops to be able to get to Costa Rica in that fashion. Yeah, in that tiny little plane. Yeah, yeah. Oh my God. Crazy. Carol another interview so not long after Don disappeared, Carol was interviewed by I think I wrote down and it's a news show called Hard copy apparently and she a quote from that interview was maybe he just doesn't know where he is and how to get home.

1:12:39 Like she's really pushing this Alzheimer's narrative and she kind of like starts to cry, but there's no. Ideas. Yeah. It's so disingenuine. It's it's bizarre to me. Yeah. The other thing, another thing I find so well about Carol, like she's she's done herself no favours if she's not involved in this, but in order to file his death certificate and then obviously execute his will, he needed to be missing for a period of 12 months. And so 12 months. And one day after Don went missing, Carol filed the for a death certificate.

1:13:19 And then. No, it's five years. Sorry, it was 2000 and. 205 years was sorry so it's five years and one day Carol filed for the death certificate and.

1:13:30 I think that the reasoning behind that is because she was struggling to pay for like the upkeep of the cats and stuff and what the the way that it was wasn't until he died that she could get access to more of the money.

1:13:47 I I don't buy that. I don't buy that they're a married couple. They had shared finances. They had shared investments in real estate which were generating a significant amount of income. Yeah, but would she had access to that money? Would maybe he, the ex-wife and the kids have put holds on things while he's, well, he was. How could he? They had no claim disappear. They had no claim over. It no, but I guess maybe well they aren't sure where he is. Would they be able to legally put stops on things?

1:14:16 I don't. Know, I never saw anything to that effect. Yeah. I think she had access to their money and she was just using that as an excuse. Yeah, because when she had access, she had at least, even if she didn't have access to like the lump sum of money which that he had. Yeah, she certainly had access to the income they were generating from their properties. Yeah, Yeah. Which was a significant amount of money they they owned. Oh my God, it's an amazing amount of real estate. Yeah. So no, I don't buy that.

1:14:47 Yeah, she did end up remarrying again in 2004 to Howard Baskin. I mean, Oh my God, the wedding.

1:14:58 Oh, God. If you do nothing else after listening to this podcast, Google Carol and Howard Baskin wedding photos. Yeah, Oh my God, it is. So Carol's wearing like a nice, you know, sort of wedding, white boho style wedding gown. She is a lover of a flower crown, which just makes me sick. Oh, she's a grown woman. No one needs a flower Chrome. Come on.

1:15:26 Howard is wearing like an animal print. Like toga or like a it's. Like like a boy toy like he's. Just and he's got, he's got like a club like Bam, bam Bam. Bam. Like kind of. Style and there's a photo of them. Let's see if we can actually pop this on our social. For sure. There's a photo of him with a collar and Carol's and he's on all fours. Yes, and Carol's holding the leash. He's like, he's the cat. He's so gross. It's so bad. So bad. Nah, I can't. And I, they're so in love, like, and they're like old and in love.

1:16:11 He worships the ground she walks. He literally does like, so there's that the the Louis Theroux documentary if because I, I love him, I think he's great. I just think he whatever he does is great. It's a very different take. Yeah. On this whole thing. And I, because I kind of like, because he is fresh, refreshing like that. Yeah. It's not dramatized at all. He tells it as it is. And so, and I, and I think with that in place, you kind of do see who Carol is and who Howard are for a little bit more real.

1:16:44 Agreed. And so there's but there's a scene where he's interviewing them and he does talk. He doesn't go to ask a question about Don and Howard like, oh, you know, but he barks up a bit, you know, like sort of, you know, like protective and stuff. And and Louis sort of turns out, oh, he's very protective of you, isn't he? Like but it's like real false at the same time. Oh, it's, it's weird because he's like weaker than her, like he's, he is. So he's the subordinate in that relationship. Like she dominates him.

1:17:13 Something shocking. I'm sure he loves it in the bedroom. Gross. Oh, I I did read somewhere, or here somewhere that someone mentioned someone referred to Carol as a bit of a Wildcat in the sack. Oh my God. Gross. Oh, she probably is, I'm sure. I mean, it sounds like she, yeah, sounds like she's done some stuff. Yeah, so, but yeah, I thought that same thing in that interview with Louis Theroux. I'm like he he was trying to look at the fucking mark. Oh my God. It just made him look really pathetic.

1:17:54 But yeah, if you want to like a little a bit more of AI, guess a real look at what's going on with all that sort of stuff. Like especially I think in terms of Joe Exotic, that Louis Theroux interview and the whole that his documentary gives a different spin on things. Yeah, yeah, agreed. It's worth a watch. It's definitely worth a watch. Let's talk a little bit about Joe Anxiety and Tiger King now. Well. In relation to Kalabaskin in particular, obviously he's in jail for trying to kill her, have her killed.

1:18:24 And I think you watch the Tiger King series and you sort of go, yeah, should he be in jail? You don't want him to be in jail because you like him like it's. Charismatic. He's very charismatic and, well, should we say maybe a bit narcissistic? Yeah. You think there's so many things that are problematic with him that yeah, when you. I mean, yeah, I think Louis through even said it. Then if he's into he goes. I'm really so disappointed because in myself because I like him. Yeah. But yeah, he, he's, there's so much more to him that I dislike.

1:18:56 One, the fact that his husbands have all been 19 when he's met them and then become massively drug, drug addict. Well, yeah, Well, they're massive drug addicts. And that he has literally then just he's created them to be drug addicts. I mean, you look at that, particularly that Travis, you see, yeah, you see him at the very beginning of, like, him arriving at the park and then you see him a few years down the park, down the track. Yeah. And like the difference in him, I mean, just his facial features and things like that, his demeanor, clearly he arrived as a bit.

1:19:30 Well, he was just, he was described as a pothead. Well, that's a big. I mean, being a pothead is a is a long way between pothead and. Crackhead. You see him? Yeah, Which? Is what he is at the end. Yeah. And so sad. That's tragic. Yeah. Just that's really hard. Yeah. Agreed. Agreed. Yeah, I mean, he, I think I, my belief is that Joey Zodic Ball is in jail. Oh, a number of reasons, not just. What he did with Carol. No, agreed. And he is where he needs to be. And Yup, that's that's all worked out the way he needs to.

1:19:59 But God, he's a character. Oh, God, yeah. He he created a song. So he hates Carol. Yeah. Hates her beyond measure. Yeah, obviously he wants her dead. Like he had YouTube channels dedicated to like he'd he'd read her Diaries which went fabricated. And he just like everything he did, he had like, he'd hang likenesses of her, like, as in hang them to like with a noose to like kill them. Like he he did some really, really weird and really, oh, shit. But he also wrote a song about it. Oh, God, yeah. It's called here Kitty Kitty.

1:20:44 Please do yourselves a favour and have a listen the. Video clips. Oh. The video, so he's got a like and it is a good likeness, she thought. Exactly like. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Actually, when I first saw it had to like double take going why did we do that? Yeah, I thought the same thing. The other thing I thought was, geez, he's actually got a really nice singing voice. Ohh. Guess I would say. No, it's not him. He paid someone else. Yeah, or whoever he paid. You've got a beautiful singing. I've worked it out as as the episodes go along with Tiger King and you see, you hear different songs that he's released, right?

1:21:19 Yeah, I think it was about the third or fourth song. I'm kind of going, jeez, yeah, he's got a good voice and I went, but you know what? He sounds different. In. Every song like, as if it's a different singer. It is, yeah. Every song's a different person singing, yeah. Didn't even get the same person. Same person like Beyoncé does. Yeah, yeah. Don't you dare. OK, so I'm just gonna read out my favorite verse from the song. I'm not gonna sing it because you know, my no, my throat. What if she was a rich woman?

1:21:52 She had rich taste. She felt the blood running through her veins. She liked the life she had. She loved her big cats and the beauty of being untamed. Well, everything was fine, just as sweet as wine, but her husband went and disappeared. But then it got a little crazy, got a little hazy, and the cop said, said there's something wrong here. Oh, here, Kitty, Kitty mama's got some treats for you.

1:22:23 He's just, it's just and it goes on. It goes on like that for what, 1234 verses? Oh my. God, it's actually, it's actually pretty fucking poetic, honestly. It's actually really give it a give it a listen. Oh, Jesus. Yeah, but no, the the video clip for that is just next level. Oh, it's so oh, because we shouldn't. We haven't even mentioned that. The biggest thing that Joe's audit was accusing Carol Basket of doing was feeding Don Lewis to her tigers. So he he claims that so Joe, Joe infer. Well, no, he doesn't.

1:22:56 He's full out. Explicitly says that Carol ground him up in the meat grinder and fed him to the Tigers. Right in the video clip is the the look alike standing there at the the tiger cage with their tongs and a bit of meat and dangling it in for the tigers and feeding it and there's a hand like on the plate it's. Like a head. Yeah. It's so funny. It's so funny. You've got to watch it. Like you wouldn't even believe that somebody would put something like this out. It's actually. So good. And then not what not think they'd get like, you know, sued or something.

1:23:26 God. The family, like Don's family, actually then called the police after all this came out and this, especially this video clip. Yeah. And they were like, well, we want that meat grounded. DNA test. Yes. We want to know whether dad has gone through it or not. Yeah. The police. What? Yeah. We're not doing that. No, no, There's not enough evidence to support. Well, apparently, I mean, I know again, in the documentary, Joe says, like, you know, well, the a lion, a Tiger's stomach is so acidic that it can they can swallow like a chicken pole and there's nothing, nothing like no bones will come out the other end kind of stuff.

1:24:00 But a chicken is a little bit different to human bones. There's some rather large bones in a human that you'd have to get still get rid of. And there's no evidence of those. No. His Joe's other theory was that she buried him under a septic tank. Yeah. And that's sort of being a bit debunked as well, that that septic tank one either didn't exist, which I think they've proven it does exist, but it was actually put in before Dom went missing. Yeah. So yeah, his two theories really don't hold a lot of water.

1:24:27 But no, they don't. But yeah, he was very adamant that she fed into. The I actually, I had a bit of a chuckle to myself, though, because Carol talks about about Joe Exotic's theory of her putting Don's body through the meat grinder in the Tiger King documentary. And she says she's like, I couldn't even fit my hand in there. And she's like fitting her hand in there. Yeah, yeah. And I'm like, this is reminiscent of bloody OJ and the glove. Trying to put his, yeah, put his hand, you know. Trying to get his hand in the glove, It doesn't fit.

1:24:57 I'm like, oh, hands in. There. It looks like it actually fits to me. So yeah, that's just a throwback to another episode. If you haven't listened to it, go back and listen to our Jasons and Tube Harbour. Oh gosh. Oh yeah. There's so much in that documentary that you could go over forever and a day on the stuff in that. Not a lot. I mean this political career, for one thing. Oh yeah, he well announced he was going to run for president in 2006. 1616 was it because it was. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That you know that then when Trump was coming to the end of his regime, I was going to save it.

1:25:34 Oh yeah, that works.

1:25:38 So in when in his first stint and they were really convinced a lot of the people who have this hashtag free Joe Exotic. Oh, this is Trump was going to pardon him. Yeah. And so on his on like the last few days of his of his presidency, there's literally a limo parked out the front of the of the jail in the thought that at any point Joe could walk out of that jail from being pardoned, that Donald Trump was going to do that for him. I mean, come on. I mean, when you look at the people that Donald Trump actually pardon.

1:26:08 Well, he probably should have been on that list. Yeah, exactly. Absolutely. Well, but just Joey's what it was not on his radar to be included in. No, of course not at all. Does he think he is, honestly? Joe Exotic, but you know that he's like one of the I think he's like has the most amount of fan mail going into his jail as well. And he apparently prolifically responds to everything he gets sent in jail. We should write to him. He's about the only inmate that I would write a letter to. You know, I mean, I'm not into that kind of shit.

1:26:40 No, But he's one that I would potentially be like. That'd be fun. Yeah. And especially if he responds to nearly everyone. Oh man, yeah. Imagine that I'd. Love to stir him up with a bit of a, you know, like, come on, tell us you your real theory about Don Lewis and how'd she get him through the meat grinder and yeah. Tell us more like so. But at that point, Carol and Joe had never met face to face. No, I love that. I think that was in the Louis Theroux 1 when she said that. I'm like, yeah, they've only ever been in the same room as each other in court in course.

1:27:15 Yeah. Other than that, they've never smoked. They've never actually spoken, no. Yet he has that much of A hatred for her. Really interesting. We've got to go back to something that you started to touch, base, touch on at the beginning around her. Carol Baskins, first husband Michael Murdoch. Yeah. Oh, yes, yeah. So we get this whole story, this Jeff Lowe becomes part of the Tiger Kings story. And really, I mean, he ultimately kind of, he came in and kind of screwed Joe over. He was a major part of, you know, trapping him to be put in jail for for all of this.

1:27:51 He got a bit in line with the with the. Well, I think he was coming his own arsenal always to not be caught up in it too much because he hated Carol as much as Joe did, I think. But so he was it basically people sort of say like, hey, this Jeff Lowe was really out to get Joe again. Yeah, get Joe. And people have found images of Michael Murdoch and Jeff Lowe and the theory is that they're the same person. And it was actually Carol telling her ex-husband to go in and do that on her behalf and that Michael Murdoch is Jeff Lowe.

1:28:31 Have you seen the photo? Yeah. Oh, it's uncanny. Uncanny how I love how much they look alike. Yeah, it is. It is uncanny. And so no one's actually just proven this either. No. And this is only like a recently kind of discovered thing, really. Yeah. Like, well, actually. A couple of years. Yeah, well, actually after the documentaries of like, as in after the Tiger King series have both come out. Yeah. So yeah. That I love. I love it too. I'll put the I'll put the photos up on our socials. OK, There's a great one where it shows each of them individually and then one of their faces like combined and it's literally the bottom photo just looks like them both.

1:29:09 Like it's amazing the the symmetry of their faces marry up unbelievably. I love it. It could be this is legit this. I mean, imagine that. Imagine if Carol was that conniving. I think she is. That she she could get her ex-husband who was an abusive piece of shit. Yeah. Which Jeff Lowe fits that profile. Has multiple wives, Yeah. Or girlfriends on the side or whatever known to his current wife who was pregnant, you know, all that sort of shit. Yeah, what is with the? Multiple. I just can't even. Yeah, we haven't even touched on that, no.

1:29:44 Whole other episode but yeah. So yeah, Carol Baskin has got her ex-husband to go in and poses this Jeff Lowe and take over Joe's zoo and take all his money off him. Yep. And screw him over absolutely to to the point where he's in jail. For how would you put it past her? No. In many of the litigations that have come up against Carol, she has represented herself in court and won every single time. She has not lost a court case against her. No. She's. I think she's more of it. Yeah, I think so. I think.

1:30:22 So I think she likes people thinking that she's dits because I think they can get away with doing stuff. Yep. Well, even Joe, I mean, got me, was the narcissism, but he was like, so like, oh, I've got her, you know, yeah, I'll take that bitch to court. Yep. Nah, She had him over a barrel the entire time. She knew what she was doing. Yeah. Yep. Oh, God, it's such an interesting case. Just really quickly, I want to run through some of the theories that have been put out there of what happened to Don.

1:30:47 I know we've discussed what we think's happened, but yeah, theory #1 is that he was murdered by Carol. This is, I would say this is the most popular theory, you know, And I think that's because people just believe what they've seen on Yeah, on Tiger King, and it is what it is. Second theory is that he faked his own death and that he's living it up in Costa Rica and he's alive and well and, you know, living a life of luxury down there. Yeah, multiple girlfriends. Another theory is that he was either abducted or murdered by criminals because of potential illicit activities and business ventures that he was involved in.

1:31:26 Yeah, here in like in the States, I mean, like I think that's yeah, yeah, yeah. Accidental death. So he's somehow, you know, become something's happened and no one knows what actually happened to him. Foul play by a family member because he had screwed over family members in the past. Like, so he had, I don't know if it was siblings or aunties or uncles or cousins or someone who needed money would destitute and he just refused to help them out. So have they. But then to what gain? I just don't see that that's, you know, feasible.

1:32:00 Yeah. And then there has been, you know, a few noted sightings of him in Costa Rica, which people then believe. And that sort of bolsters the theory that he is living there, but. He's a pretty everyday man kind of looking person. Yeah, You know what I mean? Like. There was nothing outstanding about him. I think he would. I think a number of people would look the same as him. Yeah, yeah. Agreed, and then I'm loving your theory. Uh huh. That's I honestly, I mean as much as like yes, I I agree and with many and many things in that Carol is not a St. No, oh, she's she's culpable.

1:32:39 If not of his murder, then of lots. Of other things, I just don't believe that she murdered him and that she could have pull that off. Why don't you believe that? I don't think that she is a murderer. I don't think that that's her who she is as a person, but I just think there'd be evidence somewhere. Something would be more obvious in terms of some evidence of that. The thing that makes me think that she's not is why the fuck would she on the Tiger King? Why would she agree to interviews like those with Louis Theroux or with CNN or all of these media outlets?

1:33:19 Like if you had something to hide, if you were guilty of murdering your yeah, you just wouldn't put yourself out there, would you? But then you know. And that's the point against the drug run thing, I think makes a lot of sense in that I think she knew about what was going on and was in some way involved in that to the point where like when he didn't come home, she knew whole fuck. I've got a I've got to bury something, like they've got to cover something. So when she goes into those interviews and she doesn't come across well, I do think it's because she has knowledge of something.

1:33:49 Yeah. I don't think she knows whether he crashed or whether he met foul play on the other end of his drop off. I don't know whether she knew he necessarily had a drug run that day. You know what I mean? I don't know if she knew what was meant to happen on that day, but I know that I think she knew Shit. Shit's gone down. Yeah, And I have to. And now I have to make sure I don't get caught up in this. Yeah. And maybe Kenny, too. Yeah. And they've covered up whatever they need to cover up. But I think these disappearance was separate to their cover.

1:34:19 Up fair? Yep. That's why I think it actually, that actually makes sense because there's no evidence whatsoever of his body of anything like that. So I just think there'd be some sort of evidence that we would be able to find if she did murder him, yeah. On their property. Yeah, on their property or in that van or at the airport or whatever that be, I think there'd be something we'd find. Yeah. Yeah. I. Agree with that. Someone would have seen something, you know, like, you know what I mean? Moving the body around or something.

1:34:47 Something. Yeah. But there's nothing. So I think he got on a plane and we never saw him again. Yeah. Yeah, we would absolutely love to know what everyone thinks. There are, as we said, there are so many things out there. Debunk my theory. Like tell me how this is not possible? Or do you think the same thing now after listening to this? Because I I think that's yeah, love it. Absolutely love it. Please hit us up on our socials like comment, do all of the things because it really, really does go a really long way in helping us get our podcast out to more and more people.

1:35:21 Yeah. And thank you so much to all of the new listeners we've got like it is astounding. We are incredible blown away, absolutely blown away the. We've got a lot of followers on TikTok and I'm aware that also TikTok may disappear for some, so follow us over. We're over on Instagram as well. So if you're fearing that you're not going to follow us on Instagram or something, I mean, I'm sorry on TikTok, I'll keep posting to there until I can't or whatever, but move across to Instagram if you need to.

1:35:49 We're we're on there as well. So I'll post all the same videos on on Instagram. Excellent. Yeah, sounds great. Now, next week, we are going to be covering a case that involves our favorite detective, Ronidal. Oh, yeah. He in his first ever homicide case. Yes. So this is this the case of Maria James. It is. Oh, my God. It's a tragic, tragic case, but really it's an Australian case. So we're bringing it back, you know, a little more local into. Melbourne, yeah. And yeah, I'm really looking forward to researching this one.

1:36:23 Yeah, this is the one that's I think haunts on to to this day, that this is like his, one that he hasn't solved. Yeah. I mean, his, his clear rate's well over 95% I believe. And this being his first ever homicide case and it's not solved is, yeah, we've got a lot to discuss. Next, absolutely we do. There's a lot of like there's theories, et cetera on that one too that we can we'll go into. Yeah. All right. Join us next week for another episode of Two Crime Besties. And thank you so much for joining us today.

1:36:54 Come rest your voice, please, Emma. Yes, I'll be right. I'll be right next week. Stay curious, crime besties. Bye. This is the four crime festies so spectacular episode The kids are the 1 rolling show kids rule grown-ups draw kids are the kids are super cool making grown-ups look like a fool because this is the four crime besties. Good job Brody. I'm Oliver and I'm 10 years old and I'm just brother Lucas and I'm eight years old and we're kids of true crime bestie Emma. I'm. I'm Mason. I'm nine years old and I like sombre Rose.

1:37:49 I'm. As you can see, it's very clear. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm Brody. I love basketball. I love Steph Curry. And together we are Meg for the two crime besties. Yeah. Sick. So. So he's seven years old. Yeah. Yeah. How dare you forget Brody. Wait. And will we be? We will be exploring the crime of a serial killer. Also, that is spelled with a C, not an S Yes, yes, yeah, that's nutrigrade. Yeah, that nutrigrain. Very concerning. Also, the culprit is actually not known yet. It is a very tough mystery.