Episode 31 - Carole Baskin

0:15 Welcome back to Crime Besties to an episode 31 of our show.

0:20 Thank you so much for joining us again.

0:22 Oh, and I've got a new host, I think, with a a new voice.

0:25 I know. Right, Yeah, apologies in

0:28 advance. I, me and my eldest son, we have

0:32 both just copped the dreaded lurgy this last week or bit over

0:37 a week now. So we're just not feeling 100%.

0:41 But you know, got a soldier for the sake of our two crime

0:44 besties. So apologies.

0:47 Get you, get you going. Oh.

0:48 Absolutely sorry if you hear coughing in the background, I'll

0:51 do my best to cover it up. No, you're all, you're all good.

0:55 It's very sexy. Oh, it's, it's quite deep

0:57 actually, isn't it? It This morning I woke up and I

1:02 was like, Oh my God, I'm gonna have to call Megan, let her know

1:04 we can't record tonight because it was 10 times worse than this

1:08 was horrible. I was talking to my

1:11 sister-in-law and she's like, Oh my God, you sound terrible.

1:14 I'm like, I don't feel bad anymore.

1:16 No, I actually feel fine. But yeah, I mean, that's always

1:19 good. It sounds worse than it is.

1:20 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Have really copped it.

1:23 Yeah. Oh, we're fine.

1:24 We're on the mend, so that's all that matters.

1:26 How have you been this last week or so?

1:29 Yeah, I've been good. I'm obviously getting to the

1:31 tail end of the school holidays and everything and some people

1:34 are back at work, you know, those that don't do jobs like I

1:37 do when we get all the holidays. Oh, we're back in holidays

1:40 again, 10. Weeks, it's all good.

1:43 Unbelievable. Yeah, no, but no.

1:46 But it's been good. No, I've been enjoying lots of

1:48 been, you know, down by the beach and stuff and hanging out

1:51 and everything. We've had really good fun

1:53 holidays, these holidays, actually, We've really enjoyed

1:55 it, Yeah. That's so good.

1:57 What about you? Well, yeah, we've been, we went

2:01 away for a little bit and just camping and we did that and

2:06 yeah, we've been doing sort of day trip type stuff.

2:10 Yeah, we've spent some time. My brother lives near the beach,

2:13 so we've spent some time down there.

2:15 Yeah, Yeah. We haven't really done a huge

2:18 amount because, yeah, as I said, for the last, it's been over a

2:21 week that we've been unwell. So that's definitely kept us in

2:25 the house and around the house. But I'm looking forward.

2:28 We've got what, a week and 1/2 or so left?

2:31 Yeah, week and 1/2. Left now, yeah.

2:32 So I'm really looking forward to doing a few fun things.

2:35 I'm back at work SO and I work 3 days so I've got a couple of

2:38 days a week extra where I can do a few bits and bobs with the

2:42 boys. But you were saying you went to

2:43 this adventure. Yeah, Enchanted Adventure Park,

2:47 I think it's called. Like Yeah, you.

2:48 Want to go? Yeah, Down by Arthur Seat was

2:50 fantastic. Like I've been there before with

2:52 my boys, but then this summer, grandma's birth, Christmas

2:56 present to the kids with to all the grandkids, the four of them

2:59 were tickets to go there. So we had a we had a really good

3:03 day. It was fantastic.

3:04 My sister-in-law and my mom and and the four kids, you know, we

3:07 just had a really great day. Like they're doing like this

3:09 tree surfing thing, they go up in these really high, like I

3:13 think one of them is like 10 meters off the ground, like tree

3:17 climbing thing. That was amazing.

3:18 Watching kids do that and that, you know, they're so brave

3:20 getting up there and doing it. It's incredible.

3:23 And my my youngest too is typically one that does not

3:26 separate, let alone go and do high rope things.

3:29 He's the kid where you go to a place and his eyeballs like pop

3:32 out of his head. Like that's cool.

3:34 And then he goes and climbs up it, but then can't get back

3:37 down. But so I was like, oh,

3:39 terrified. He was gonna do that to me at

3:41 this thing and he was gonna have to get somebody up there to try

3:43 and get him down 'cause he'd want me to go up and get him.

3:45 But there ain't no freaking way that's happening.

3:47 I ain't doing that. So yeah, no, but he did amazing.

3:51 It was so good to see him get the confidence up to do that.

3:54 Yeah, yeah, yeah. And they've got these big tube

3:56 things that go down these grass like it's cool down hills.

4:00 Awesome. Oh my God, the amount of trips

4:01 they went up and down that that hill.

4:04 I cannot believe. I know my sister-in-law was

4:05 like, I think she did. She's like four or five treks up

4:07 the hill to go. Down you have to carry the tube

4:10 with you. You've got to drag the tube too,

4:12 and so it's an effort. Oh, big time.

4:14 They said she's look, they're not heavy, but it's like it's

4:16 but it's a very steep hill like that.

4:17 You've got to get them up. So it's pretty full on.

4:20 Like she said the backs of her legs were absolutely killing

4:22 them. Yeah.

4:24 So a bit of a she yeah, she really put it out.

4:26 She's a good. But it was such a good day,

4:29 such. A good day.

4:29 All right? I feel like I'm going to try and

4:31 fit that in before let's go back.

4:33 Highly recommend. Yeah.

4:35 And I think we managed it to get there on the day it wasn't too

4:37 busy too, which was. Yeah, I think it could get

4:39 pretty busy there, I think. Yeah.

4:41 Maybe you'll go. Our kids have a curriculum day

4:43 for their first day of school. Maybe you'll go that day.

4:45 Probably a really good day. You probably absolutely have the

4:47 place to yourself. Yeah, that'd be cool.

4:49 Phenomenal. I might give that a go.

4:51 Well. Just be careful of your kids.

4:53 There, one of them in particular.

4:55 The most accident prone child on this face of this earth.

4:58 Yeah, I will. I'll be really careful.

5:00 You. You can't.

5:01 It's fine. I'll.

5:02 Be like you just make sure you're super harnessed in and

5:04 we'll. Oh, that's the thing up on the

5:06 tree climb thing. They're fine because they are.

5:08 They're literally harnessed in the entire time.

5:10 Nothing didn't go wrong there. It's the risky playgrounds have

5:13 gone around, which, OK, they're awesome and it's good.

5:15 Kids need that. Kids need absolutely.

5:16 Yeah. So good.

5:18 I highly recommend. The other thing I was going to

5:21 tell the people is about how we are gluttons for punishment,

5:26 maybe. So this afternoon we're

5:29 recording this on a Friday night because, you know, hashtag

5:32 school holidays and whatnot. There's no way we could record

5:36 if all the kids were here. Oh.

5:37 No. Well, especially what we had cop

5:39 this afternoon. Yeah, but they were desperate,

5:42 weren't they, to record their own little podcast.

5:44 So yeah, we got everything set up and and your two actually did

5:49 a really good job. They had an idea of what they

5:51 wanted to do. They were so excited to get on

5:53 the mic. I love it.

5:55 Maybe we can put a little I. Don't know, I was thinking

5:57 really just do a little snippet. I won't.

5:59 We won't like. Put the torture of it.

6:03 No, we won't. But maybe just a little snippet

6:05 at the end. Yeah.

6:06 Stay tuned if you want to hear that.

6:08 Yeah, but yeah, my God, they loved.

6:11 They were loving themselves sick 'cause they could see themselves

6:13 in the camera. MMM.

6:15 They think they're Youtubers or something, 'cause they're like,

6:17 don't forget to like and subscribe.

6:19 Don't forget to buy us a coffee. Into all of it, though, you

6:23 know? Yeah.

6:23 Like, you know, buy us a coffee. Like, Oh my God, they were into

6:27 all of it. But yeah, I mean Brody's rap

6:29 that he wrote. Oh, that was incredible,

6:31 actually. That was actually so.

6:32 Good. He's left it here on the on the

6:33 table for me, actually. It's bloody gorgeous.

6:35 I might have to take it home with me.

6:36 Oh, you. Absolutely should.

6:38 You should. It's.

6:39 So cute. Did you get did you get the bit

6:41 where you know adults drawl? Yeah.

6:43 Oh yeah. Kids roll.

6:44 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Part of its charm, really.

6:48 Oh, absolutely. Oh, that's so cute.

6:51 That was so cool. So we enjoyed that this

6:53 afternoon. Very loud.

6:55 It was really turn the volume down when I do that edit.

6:58 Oh yeah, you're gonna have to normalize that audio for sure.

7:02 And then your kids have gone off to their dads for the weekend

7:07 now. And my kids, I don't know if you

7:09 can hear them in the background, but they're playing with their

7:12 father. They should actually be almost

7:14 going to bed. I think they were doing a some

7:16 sort of fortnight off between all three of them or something.

7:19 Oh, this could last a while then.

7:21 Well, I think it was a hard out at 8:00 PM.

7:23 Oh, that's something, Yeah. We'll see how that all goes.

7:26 We'll see if we can still hear them in half an hour or so.

7:30 All right. Should we get into today's case?

7:32 During Let's jump on into today's episode.

7:35 So today, I mean, oddly enough, actually I went and went to the

7:38 movies this morning with my kids and I went and saw Mufasa The

7:41 Lion King. But today we're actually talking

7:45 about kind of the Tiger King. Sort of, sort of in a roundabout

7:48 way. Because we're going to talk

7:49 about Carole Baskin today. So it kind of brings back all of

7:53 those lockdown, my memories come flooding back in of like

7:58 watching the Tiger King on oh God in 2020.

8:01 Did you watch this during lockdown?

8:03 I absolutely do. Same.

8:05 I was like, I feel like I binge watched it.

8:08 Yeah, in a day or two at the time.

8:11 I don't know how I found the time to actually like, I mean, I

8:14 know I had the time, but you know, the kids would have been

8:17 around. I can't remember.

8:18 Maybe we watched it over a couple.

8:20 Of nights ago, they were probably in bed a bit earlier.

8:22 Yeah, that's true. Yeah.

8:24 So yes, it was intriguing at the time and then I realised when we

8:30 were researching this that I actually had not watched the

8:32 second season all the way through, right.

8:35 Not that it really pertains much actually to this case, but to

8:39 Carol Baskin in particular. But yeah, well.

8:41 She opted out to be involved in that at all because originally

8:45 she thought that when they were doing that documentary of the

8:49 first one, it was meant to be a reminiscent of Blackfish, you

8:53 know, in terms. Yeah.

8:54 For the big cats. Yeah.

8:54 Because, you know, this whole idea was putting good together,

8:57 a documentary that would make people then rethink how they

9:00 interact with big cats and stop, you know, abusing these animals.

9:04 But that's not what ended up being.

9:07 The documentary that was. She says that, right?

9:09 I mean, we're gonna get into so much.

9:10 She says that, Yeah. But yet she sat down and did

9:14 these interviews and answered these questions that had

9:17 sometimes nothing to really do with the cats.

9:20 Yeah. So she has actively participated

9:23 in. It's not like they've, I don't

9:26 know. Yes and no.

9:27 Heard anything? Did you watch the Louis?

9:29 Through, yes, documentary, because I feel like watching

9:31 that, you kind of get a bit of a different side of that's true,

9:34 what happened. That's true.

9:35 And I think, yeah, to a degree, I think, yeah, there were

9:37 definitely questions she was asked that would have made you

9:39 go, hey, what's that got to do with it?

9:40 Yeah. But I guess in the big scheme of

9:41 things, you kind of go, oh, they've got to edit stuff, you

9:43 know, like, I don't know what. Maybe maybe they managed.

9:47 Maybe the producers were bloody good at getting her to talk and

9:50 she was part maybe said things and then realized afterwards

9:52 kind of going, hang on, wait, that wasn't what we were

9:54 actually meant to be talking about.

9:55 I don't know. I don't know, but I don't know.

9:59 I'm a bit on the fence about what she actually thought it was

10:02 going to be. But by the time that that was

10:04 aired and Season 2 was going to come, was going to be starting

10:08 to be filmed, she was like, Oh no, no, no, I'm not going to be

10:10 a part of it for many reasons, I think, but.

10:13 Yeah, many of those reasons we'll be talking about tonight

10:17 like she Oh my goodness, we. Better I guess we better like we

10:22 should start this with a bit of a Ohio your cool cats and

10:26 fitness she's. So cringe worthy.

10:31 Yes, she, yes. So she's released, we'll get to

10:35 all of this, but she's released like she's got a YouTube channel

10:38 and she's got, Oh my God, she's done so many different media

10:43 appearances over the years. Yes, her demeanour, the way she

10:48 dresses, the fucking flower crowns.

10:51 I can't even. It's, I mean, but it's that

10:54 whole, it's a whole other world. Yeah, absolutely.

10:58 I mean, I can't imagine owning. I mean, I've got a very large

11:01 dog, don't be wrong, but I can't imagine owning these wild

11:05 animals. No.

11:07 What, what draws people into that world to begin with?

11:11 Because I mean, going looking at what I could find, she wasn't

11:15 drawn into it originally from a protective point of view, no.

11:20 So absolutely. I mean, I think she would say

11:22 that she was. But it's very clear there's

11:25 video footage of her encouraging people to have these animals and

11:30 how to take on a wild animal. So it's certainly not where she

11:33 really started from, no. So.

11:36 The the Joe Exotics of the world, the the Tiger King and

11:41 Carol Baskin. And then obviously in season 2,

11:43 when you even more so, you get to know that Dawn Antel was that

11:46 a dog Antel. Dog Antel.

11:47 Sorry. Yeah.

11:48 Oh my God. I mean, they're all very weird.

11:50 Different, very weird. A bunch of very.

11:52 Cult like the whole that whole thing.

11:55 Yeah, yeah, it's very interesting.

11:57 All right, let's get into it. I'm a bit excited.

11:59 Let's get into it. So Carol Baskin, as we know her,

12:03 was actually born Carol Stairs. Jones Stairs being her middle

12:07 name was actually her mother's maiden name.

12:09 She was born on the 6th of June in 1961 to a very poor family.

12:14 They, they weren't wealthy by any stretch of the imagination.

12:18 They lived in a in a caravan park, in a trailer park.

12:22 And her family were quite religious, and they, they were

12:28 fundamental Christians. And they were, I mean, I guess

12:33 they had, they lived by a certain ruling because of that.

12:38 Yeah. And it really was to the

12:41 detriment of Carol in the end. At the age of 14, she was raped

12:45 by three men at knifepoint. So they were these were three

12:51 young teenagers as well, older than her but still in their

12:55 teens. And they lived in this trailer

12:58 park with her and they raped her at knifepoint.

13:04 Her family eventually found out about it.

13:06 I don't know. Do you know how they found out?

13:08 I think she told them. I think she.

13:10 Did tell them from what I remember reading, yeah.

13:12 But. Her family basically said, well,

13:15 you must have been asking for it.

13:17 And also you're now like damaged goods or more.

13:19 Like, you're no good now. Yeah.

13:21 So that kind of prompted her to leave home at the age of 15.

13:25 So not very not very long after. Yeah.

13:28 Her rape. I, I can't even imagine the

13:30 state she must have been in. I think in some ways this also

13:33 informs her actions potentially, or it's, I know knowing that

13:39 now, I definitely look at her in a different way.

13:42 Like you think these experiences during, during a really

13:46 fundamental time of her life, like a very important time in

13:51 her life and the way her family didn't support her, that's

13:54 transformative. That's that's life changing.

13:57 Absolutely, yeah. So when she left home, she went

14:01 to work at a department store and there she met her first

14:06 husband. He was her boss.

14:09 March her senior. Do you?

14:11 I think it was like 6-8 years her senior.

14:13 Oh, I didn't have it written down.

14:15 But definitely her senior. Yeah, his name was Michael

14:19 Murdoch, and she was only 17 years old when they got married.

14:25 Within a year, she was pregnant with their first or their only

14:28 daughter named Jamie. This relationship between

14:33 Michael and Carol was. Tumultuous abuse?

14:38 Yup. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

14:40 So. Physically, emotionally,

14:42 psychologically, financially, the lot, Yeah.

14:46 Abusing her from every which angle?

14:48 Yeah. There are some, you know,

14:50 anecdotes. And I mean, I guess it's worth

14:52 probably noting that all of the stories that we hear are from

14:56 Carol's perspective. But I mean, there's nothing to

15:00 necessarily disprove that any of these things happened, although

15:05 he does kind of potentially into the story again later on in

15:08 life. But we'll talk about you said

15:12 that. So there's, you know, they would

15:14 have physical, verbal fight. There's a fight apparently.

15:19 And this was this was quite a significant day in in Carol's

15:23 story. But in 1981, they had a fight,

15:29 and it was a bad one, according to Carol.

15:33 And it got so heated that she felt like she really needed to

15:37 escape that situation. Yeah.

15:40 So she was actually preparing dinner at the time.

15:43 She had a potato in front of her, so she threw a potato at

15:45 his head and ran out the door. So she left baby Jamie at home

15:51 with him and left. She didn't have a car at the

15:54 time. And so she went for a walk along

15:57 the road. And what happened when she when

16:00 she went along this road? So this is in Tampa, FL Blows my

16:03 mind, doesn't it? Yeah.

16:05 So she's what, 20 at this stage? Yeah.

16:09 Yeah, she's 20. Yep.

16:11 Yep. And so she's walking on the road

16:13 and a car pulls up and driving the car is a man named Don

16:18 Lewis. Don Lewis is married.

16:21 And with this stage, with I think, yeah, believe by this

16:23 stage he probably had three of his four kids.

16:25 He did, yes. And he saw her walking on the

16:29 road and pulled over next to her and said, you know, I'll look,

16:32 you know, you look upset. Jump in the car and we'll have a

16:35 chat. She's like, oh, my God, no, not

16:36 getting in the stranger's car. Good on her.

16:38 He does a lap around, tries again.

16:41 I think she says no again. He then does a third lap around.

16:44 And on this third lap around, he decides to put a handgun on the

16:48 passenger seat. And he says to her as he pulls

16:52 up, There's a handgun there. You're you can pick that up and

16:55 hold it to my head and, and we can, and then we can chat.

16:59 I really want someone to talk to.

17:02 How fucking weird. She then gets in the car and

17:06 does that. And she even says, like her, her

17:09 recollection of this in interviews is she's like, well,

17:12 then I thought, well, what have I got to lose?

17:13 I've got a gun that I can hold at his head.

17:15 So ha ha ha, I get him to say. That gun's not got no bullets in

17:19 it, but the other one he's got does.

17:21 I mean, it's, I mean, having said that, what is she, 18

17:25 years? No, she's 20.

17:26 Sorry, 20 years old at the time. Yeah.

17:28 So. Just.

17:30 What the fuck now? It's probably worth noting right

17:32 now as well. Yeah.

17:33 At this stage, Don was 42 years of age.

17:37 He's 22 years her senior. This particular night, he'd also

17:42 had a fight with his wife, Gladys, and he decided that he'd

17:46 leave the house and go and see his girlfriend.

17:49 On the way to seeing his girlfriend, he bumps into Carol,

17:53 and he's like, well, she looks a bit.

17:54 All right. Well, I just pop over and see

17:57 whether I can ties her into the car.

18:00 So once Carol gets in the car, where do they go?

18:03 They go to a motel, yeah, and do it.

18:06 Do it. Oh.

18:10 God. She's 20 and he's 42.

18:12 She's upset they're both married.

18:14 What the fuck? Hell, what is going through

18:16 either of their heads I that one just gets me.

18:19 But they continue seeing each other on the side.

18:22 Like neither of them leave their partners.

18:25 Not immediately. No 1990 before she leaves her

18:29 partner, her husband and he leaves his wife and then in 1991

18:35 they get married. Yeah.

18:36 So Carol, Carol, Carol actually left her husband after four

18:41 years. Oh, sorry.

18:42 And then she was single but still having this affair with

18:46 Don. And at the 10 year mark after

18:48 meeting is when Don left his wife to then be with Carol.

18:52 So at this stage, Don's 52, Carol's 30, and as you said,

18:57 about a year after they officially got together because

19:00 John had separated from his wife, they get married.

19:04 And according to Don's first wife, that's not the only

19:09 affairs he was having. Like, we're not we're not

19:11 talking that, you know, he's had one girlfriend on the side and

19:14 then replaced that one girlfriend with with Carol.

19:17 Like this is the man who was, you know, doing this at left,

19:21 right and center. His wife, he's so Gladys.

19:23 His first wife actually said. I'm pretty sure there were at

19:26 least 25 that I can count. Yeah.

19:28 And that's that she knew of. Oh.

19:29 Man, why did she stick around too?

19:31 Though because, well, she, she says she stuck around because

19:34 she loved him so much. And every time she'd confront

19:37 him about being with another woman, he'd he'd repent.

19:42 He'd be like, I'm so sorry, I'll never do it again.

19:44 And she just kept going back to him.

19:46 I mean, I think money probably got.

19:48 Into it was going to say. Because so Don was OK, let's

19:53 talk about Don a bit. So yeah, So Jack Donald Lewis

19:56 was born on the 30th of April in 1938.

19:59 He was raised by a single mum in an era where that just wasn't a

20:03 thing. So he's had a unique upbringing

20:06 in terms of, you know, society at the time, which.

20:09 I find really then even harder to come by in terms of his

20:13 womanizing, you know, and he's been raised by a single mum

20:16 himself. I just feel like that's like

20:17 what he clearly learnt nothing from his upbringing.

20:20 Have you seen like, oh, this is getting really far ahead now,

20:25 But a woman that he employed, when she's interviewed in Tiger

20:28 King, she's like, I've been told he's like Anne McQueen.

20:32 Yeah, Anne McQueen. I've been told he's like a sexy

20:34 addict. Didn't.

20:37 She her comment was like, she was, I think I'm the only woman

20:39 in his wildlife that he hasn't had an affair with.

20:40 And it's the only time I was happy.

20:42 I was. I was fat and ugly.

20:44 Yeah. Plump.

20:44 Plump and plump and unattractive or something like that.

20:48 Yeah, it's very. She's so, she's so funny.

20:51 Character she's. A real character.

20:54 So Don was 15 years old and working at a grocery store

20:58 packing groceries when he met 12 year old Gladys, his first wife,

21:04 soon to be first wife. Yep, 12 that's.

21:07 Just. It's disgusting.

21:10 They dated for three years. Sorry.

21:13 For two years. So Don was so Jack.

21:17 Donald Lewis, obviously, he goes by Don.

21:19 By Donald. Don was 17 when they got

21:22 married. Gladys was 14.

21:26 Needed permission from their mums, who both were like, yeah,

21:28 yeah, sure. Get married at 17 and 14.

21:30 Oh. God, I just can't.

21:33 Like what? What?

21:35 I can't. You can't drive a car like you

21:37 can't your. Child, can you open?

21:40 A bank account even without parental.

21:42 No, I don't think you can. I think you need to be 16 for.

21:45 All that. I mean, I know we're talking

21:46 what, 60s here, but still, that was fairly.

21:50 Oh, that's ridiculous. It's just not right.

21:52 It's really not right. No, they were so married at 14

21:56 and 1711 months later they had their first child.

21:59 So Oh my Gladys would have been 15.

22:02 Yeah, when she was pregnant and no wonder actually.

22:05 Now that makes sense because I remember seeing like them in

22:07 interviews and I remember looking at them kind of which

22:09 one's the mum, like, yeah, you know, because they're not that

22:11 far. There's not much age difference

22:13 between. 14 to 15 years between them.

22:15 Her and her eldest like. Yeah.

22:17 God that's insane and. They do they look like.

22:19 They do, they all, Look, there's like there's three, I think 3,

22:22 three women sitting there in the interview.

22:24 And I was kind of like, it took me like a few minutes to sort of

22:26 work out which one was mum, you know?

22:28 Yeah. Because yeah, they're all very

22:29 similar. Yep.

22:31 Oh God. Crazy.

22:34 So after their first child, they went on to have two more girls

22:37 and then they had a son who they adopted.

22:40 Yeah, a little bit later on. I couldn't find out too much.

22:43 No, there's no. They adopted him or whatever you

22:46 because at first I thought it sort of thought was he looking

22:47 for a bit of an heir, you know, to his stuff.

22:50 But that didn't really seem to be the case either.

22:51 There was. I don't know what the reasoning

22:53 behind any of that was, but. No, and that I actually couldn't

22:56 find any information about him or what he's doing or where he's

22:59 been. Or no no.

23:01 So Don obviously decided that he did not want to be poor.

23:05 Yeah, and he was incredibly proactive in establishing

23:10 himself. Kudos to him because he was

23:13 self-made in the end. Yep, Although he was, the word

23:16 that was used on him about him was a ruthless businessman.

23:21 He was, you know, you, you did not stuff around with him.

23:23 No. Yeah, but everything.

23:25 He was also supposedly had a bit of a Midas touch.

23:28 Everything he did do just happened to make money and he

23:31 made no sense in a lot of ways. He made some odd decisions, but

23:34 as you said, they worked out really well for him.

23:36 Yeah, he bought 5 dump trucks. Yeah, and he didn't even drive

23:40 them. He just had had the driving them

23:42 for him. Yeah, he, he did drive it a

23:45 whole lot like a long distance truck in Tampa, FL He on the

23:51 side when he was driving these trucks.

23:53 So he owned these five dump trucks.

23:55 He was then driving this whole on the side of that.

23:58 He also had a washing machine repair kind of biz side business

24:02 where he'd take old, you know, washing machines that didn't

24:08 work. He'd fix them up and then he'd

24:09 sell them. Yeah, you can't imagine there'd

24:11 be a huge amount of profit in that.

24:13 But, you know, he, he was doing all this stuff.

24:16 Yeah. He then progressed to used car

24:18 sale, and we all know the reputation that used car

24:22 salesman have. I feel like he would have fit

24:24 that bill to a tee. Yeah, yeah.

24:26 He then moved from that into real estate.

24:30 And what he would do, and this is, I feel like this is

24:34 important when we're thinking about things further on in his

24:37 life. But he would actually buy bad

24:40 mortgages, yes. And get people to pay him.

24:43 So he'd buy these bad mortgages from banks and lenders and he

24:47 would then get people to pay interest to him like 18% or

24:52 something ridiculous. That would just get them to

24:55 foreclose. Every time because people

24:57 couldn't afford, the reason they were bad mortgages is because

25:00 people couldn't afford the mortgage, let alone the injured

25:04 like this extraordinary interest.

25:06 On top of that, they would then foreclose on their properties

25:09 and he would sell them and obviously.

25:10 Pocket the profit on that, yeah. Which is just awful.

25:14 Like you're literally kicking people when they're down at

25:16 their hardest like. I think that's important to keep

25:19 in mind as we talk about this story.

25:21 He fucked people over left, right and centre.

25:24 Yes. To make a buck.

25:26 Yeah, to make a buck. And.

25:27 Apparently, I think what I was reading was that he was worth a

25:31 fair bit of money when he met Carol, but he actually made more

25:34 of his money after meeting her and when they were married.

25:38 And she did a lot to, she had a lot to do with this real estate

25:40 stuff that he did. She was quite heavily involved

25:43 in that, from what I could gather.

25:44 Yeah. Is that what you sort of found

25:45 too? Yes.

25:46 Yes, she did. Yeah.

25:47 Yeah. So I mean, he was a self-made

25:51 millionaire and as you said, by the time he met Carol, he was

25:55 definitely well established. Yeah, people who knew him said

26:00 he would bury money in jars in the backyard.

26:03 Yes, he'd have gold like gold bars made and bury those.

26:09 So yeah, in terms of what he was actually worth.

26:13 Really hard to. Hard to quantify.

26:16 Many people had different have different opinions.

26:18 A lot of people said he was worth between about the five to

26:20 $7,000,000 mark, but there are people who also believe he was

26:23 worth as much as $20 million. Yeah, that's it.

26:26 I've seen the same. Yeah, really, really big

26:29 discrepancies and I from we can get to this.

26:31 Obviously there's reasons why I think that might be so.

26:36 Yeah. So what he would do that is he

26:38 would do all that with. He had a lot.

26:39 So he was wealthy and had a lot of money.

26:40 He would always carry a lot of cash on him in case he wanted to

26:44 buy something. Did you know there was such a

26:46 thing as a $500.00 bill? No, I didn't.

26:49 Know that until I so I I'd read somewhere or heard somewhere

26:54 that he'd had these he'd because apparently he used to dress like

26:57 a pauper. Yeah, he literally, I think he'd

26:59 wear like his description of even when he was when he went

27:01 missing was that he was wearing a Kmart T-shirt and blue jeans.

27:04 Yeah, like that's how he was. He's a multi millionaire, but

27:06 that's how he would dress. He would also go, he would buy

27:09 his clothes from op shops and things.

27:10 Yeah, it wasn't necessarily even a brand new Kmart T-shirt.

27:13 Yeah. But yeah, like it.

27:16 That blows my mind. Yeah, maybe also dumpster dive

27:20 too, for food. Like, what the hell?

27:23 Yeah, it's weird. Go down and buy the restaurant,

27:25 let alone the food inside it, but you're gonna go and dive in

27:28 a dumpster? Yeah, really odd.

27:30 Very, very. Strange behaviour, yeah.

27:33 Very, very strange behaviour. Yeah.

27:35 He's, he's a very, very interesting character.

27:40 Isn't. He, Carol has described him as

27:41 that, as all of his life that he was very eccentric.

27:46 But then as time progressed, she has also though described him as

27:51 potentially maybe developing something like Alzheimer's.

27:55 So there was behaviour that was occurring that she identified no

28:00 one. And there's there was a doctor's

28:01 report where it did sort of, you know, it spoke of this not so

28:05 diagnosing, but that's the only one.

28:09 And she was the one who took him to that doctor.

28:11 Exactly. So there was obviously.

28:13 She was in on that appointment. On the appointment so we have to

28:16 sort of take this with a bit of a grain of salt, but she spoke

28:18 about many things that he would do that were quite odd on top of

28:22 his oddness like and in and inferring that maybe he was on

28:26 the verge of Alzheimer's, but. I think it's worth noting,

28:28 though, that she is the only person in his life who was close

28:32 to him, and there were people who were very close to him.

28:35 Yeah, she's the only one who says this.

28:38 Yeah. Everyone else is like, Nah, he

28:40 was absolutely switched on. She said things like, oh, he

28:43 would go dumpster diving and then forget where he was and

28:46 didn't know how to get home or, you know, things like that.

28:49 And everyone else who knew him had no experience of that

28:53 whatsoever. Which I mean, I don't know, I

28:55 can see both perspectives of that maybe being true but also

28:58 not being true. So it's it's one of those ones

29:00 where we can't, it's really hard to know.

29:02 It is hard where the truth on that one is.

29:04 Absolutely. So as we were saying, Carolyn

29:08 Dunn got married in 1991, year after they Don divorced from

29:12 Gladys. They opened a wildlife rescue

29:18 center called Wildlife on Easy Street just because they lived

29:22 on Easy Street. Yeah, it was on Easy Street.

29:24 Yeah, Carol describes this time. So they were looking to set up a

29:30 cat rescue. So at the time in the States, it

29:34 was legal for people to have big cats as pets.

29:39 Yeah. And the way that that was

29:41 facilitated was that the second a tiger cub or a baby cat, baby

29:49 large cat was born, it would be removed from its mother because

29:54 apparently if they'd had any time to bond with their mother,

29:58 they would immediately become more aggressive.

30:01 And obviously that was something that then.

30:02 Humans because they naturally want their mother.

30:05 Yeah, Yep. And so Carol claims that they

30:13 opened up this wildlife rescue because people would get these

30:18 little baby tiger Cubs and then they'd grow very, very quickly

30:22 and they'd have nowhere to go. So they would adopt or take in

30:26 these animals. And they had, Oh my God, 10s of

30:30 10s of or hundreds. Well, it started with that they

30:34 they got one bobcat was like, it was like a specially unique

30:38 animal that they wanted at the time.

30:41 And then they decided they wanted more of them, so they

30:44 were going to go and buy six more of these Bobcats from this

30:46 guy who had a litter. And it turned out that when they

30:49 got there that they that this place was actually breeding them

30:53 for to make fur like fur fur coats and things like that.

30:58 These Bobcats. So these so they were going to

31:00 buy six of them, but the other fifty who were there, we're

31:04 going to be used like skinned like.

31:07 So apparently she turned around and said to Don, we can't take

31:12 six of them and leave the rest of them here to be killed and

31:15 die. That's awful.

31:16 So they just bought all 56 of them.

31:19 Like what the hell do you do with 56 Bobcats?

31:21 Did they even have the facilities at that time?

31:22 I think so, no. I mean, this property, wildlife

31:25 on Easy Street, it was like 40 acres or something.

31:28 It was a huge property, but it didn't at the start.

31:32 Definitely it did not have the infrastructure to accommodate

31:36 all of these animals. Well, let's just say I mean,

31:39 they shouldn't be living. In cages anyway, No, they're

31:43 wild animals. And I think there was some a bit

31:47 of argy bargy between Carol and Don because Don actually wanted

31:50 to start breeding them for the purposes of then selling them

31:53 because he was, I'm going to use the word entrepreneur, but he

31:56 was obviously fiscally motivated.

32:00 Yeah. Yeah, and he saw what he could

32:02 make out of them, That's what he.

32:03 Yeah. That's what he wanted to do,

32:05 whereas Carol at this time was then shifting more into.

32:08 Protective. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

32:11 Wildlife rescue type work. Yeah, absolutely.

32:15 Yeah. So they, they ended up with, I

32:17 mean, endless, countless numbers of these big cats.

32:20 I mean, it's extraordinary how many there are.

32:23 Yeah. In America.

32:24 And there's more in America than there are in the wild in their

32:28 natural habitat. Like that's insane.

32:30 Bizarre in the Tiger King documentary.

32:34 Did you find it absolutely fucking weird?

32:38 Bit the whole thing. Or the whole thing is weird, but

32:41 you know, So when they've got this wildlife on Easy Street,

32:45 which they then named Big Cat Rescue later on down the track,

32:48 Yeah. And in order to run such a large

32:52 operation, they need volunteers or they need, they need people.

32:56 They should be fucking paying these people, obviously.

32:58 But. Yeah, but I mean, this is the

32:59 thing. I mean, they cost money to feed

33:01 these cats, doesn't it? It's a vicious cycle.

33:03 I mean, how do you how do you then have.

33:05 I mean, my dog costs a lot of money to feed and he, you know,

33:08 it's one. Yeah.

33:09 How do you how are you feeding hundreds of these animals?

33:13 Yeah, without volunteers, I guess, like.

33:15 Yeah. And raising money in some way

33:17 do. You think the it's the fucking

33:19 weirdest thing you've ever seen, the way the hierarchy of the

33:21 volunteers works. So what they do is they come in,

33:26 look, do not quote me on the colors of their shirts because I

33:29 didn't write it down, but they come in and they say a light

33:33 blue shirt, right? And so if you're a light blue

33:36 shirt, you're a shit kicker. You are.

33:39 You've done less than a year's worth of volunteering.

33:42 And some of these people volunteer for like 50 or 60

33:44 hours a week. Yeah, yeah, it's insane.

33:48 They, they're drawn to this wanting to be time be with not

33:53 so much 'cause I think it's look, I'm an animal lover.

33:56 I I do get on a degree of like people going, Oh my God, the

34:00 opportunity to be in their presence and be with them.

34:04 I actually do understand that. OK, yeah.

34:06 I mean, I was that I was that kid.

34:08 I would have volunteered for something like this at 1617,

34:11 like I was, I would totally have done that.

34:14 Yeah, I was that kid. But yeah, so I do get it.

34:18 But then it's like using the taking that for an advantage of

34:21 that passion for someone and then for the wrong reasons.

34:25 And then everyone's then striving to get the next colour

34:28 T-shirt and the next colour T-shirt and to the detriment of

34:31 their own lives. Like some of them are like, oh,

34:34 yeah, I live on a camper trailer just over there.

34:36 Because that way I can, you know, get into work a bit

34:39 earlier and be here longer. And, and Carol goes past and

34:43 she's like, oh, well, I don't even know who you are.

34:45 And then she's like, oh, I only know the ones who've been here 5

34:48 plus years and who've invested 1000 plus hours or something

34:52 like that. Yeah, like what the fuck?

34:54 Yeah. And then on the other extreme of

34:56 that is like Joe Exotics one where they live out of the the

35:00 Walmart truck, living and eating the food that's meant to be

35:03 delivered to feed the animals they pick over that first.

35:06 So disgusting to eat. Yeah, so Joe Exotic gets the

35:11 used meat. So any meat that's like returned

35:14 to Walmart or like people have taken out a shelf and then been

35:18 like at the cash register being like, Nah, don't want it, you

35:21 know, used. By date back has happened to

35:23 have. Clicked like it that gets stored

35:25 and I think Walmart would deliver it once a week or

35:28 something and it was meant for the cats.

35:33 Because they. Started Tigers.

35:34 And or food that's maybe. A little bit out of date, yeah.

35:38 Joe Exotic would make his staff pick through what was there and

35:44 eat the meat. That's.

35:46 What? That's what they would cook up

35:48 and eat for themselves first like.

35:50 Oh, I heard a rumor as well. I don't, I don't know if this

35:53 was in the documentary or not, but that they would then use

35:56 that food also in the restaurant that was on site.

35:58 And that's true. Is it true?

36:00 Yeah. Oh, my God.

36:03 I mean, I wouldn't need an establishment like that anyway,

36:07 but but still. Seriously.

36:11 I mean, it looks so fucking filthy that place.

36:13 Oh. This is it, the whole none of

36:15 it. As I said to you, there's a zoo

36:17 a bit similar to this here in Australia.

36:19 Oh yeah, tell us about that. We can't name it, can we?

36:22 Can I don't, maybe don't name it, don't know.

36:24 But you've been to a similar. Yeah, well, maybe not.

36:27 Not to the extreme, not. Quite to this extreme and I

36:29 don't know how what their volunteer system is like or

36:31 whatever, but it still blows my mind that it's not we're near.

36:34 We don't have this similar sorts of thing go on here in

36:37 Australia. Where is that?

36:38 And that's why I think this one stood out to me.

36:39 So obviously of like this is Tiger King esque.

36:43 You need to know where near to that level.

36:45 Yeah, yeah. But different, very different.

36:47 Yeah. You were saying you and your mum

36:49 still laughed to this day about that pace.

36:51 Or you just mention it to my mum and just it was the plastic

36:54 chair in with the the cats that they were lions and yeah, there

36:58 were plastic chairs and they go someone come and have their

37:00 lunch in here or something. That it was really weird.

37:02 It was really weird. Just have a tiger back up and

37:05 sit on it. So Don absolutely loved Costa

37:12 Rica. Yep, had an affinity for Costa

37:16 Rica. Yep, he wanted to move all of

37:18 their animals down from the big cat rescue.

37:21 We had a girlfriend down there too.

37:22 Well. He did.

37:22 Of course he did. He wanted to move all of the

37:26 animals down there and start a zoo.

37:29 One thing I did find really gross that I read about was the

37:32 fact that he would more he'd go down in Costa Rica more often if

37:35 Carol was menstruating. Are you fucking kidding me?

37:38 No, I'm not. That is so disgusting.

37:41 Yeah, So what? She had a period and he'd fuck

37:44 off down Costa Rica? Yeah.

37:48 What if his girlfriend had a period?

37:50 Oh. Obviously they went on a line.

37:52 That is so fucked. I did not know that.

37:55 Yeah, that's disgusting. Gross.

37:57 God, he's so gross. Yeah.

37:59 While Don was down in Costa Rica, especially sort of in the

38:04 early days of the, you know, easy Street Rescue, Carol would

38:09 have a vet come in and spay the animals while he was down there

38:14 and not tell him about it because he was still.

38:16 Wanting to breed? Wanting to breed them, establish

38:19 this zoo, make money from it and.

38:23 Zoo then is it? Like it is, it's absolutely not.

38:26 It's awful. Yeah, absolutely not.

38:28 And Carol, obviously, by this stage, you know, she decided

38:31 this was not the way that she wanted things to go.

38:34 So yeah, she's, you know, had them spayed without his

38:40 knowledge. Yeah, she was definitely doing

38:42 bits and peasant behind his back and yeah, making decisions about

38:46 that things, those things for herself, which, yeah, don't

38:49 blame her. So I think we're probably at the

38:52 stage now where, OK, let's we're in August 1997, right?

38:57 So we've mentioned Anne McQueen already.

39:00 Anne McQueen was Don's oldest friend.

39:04 They'd never had a sexual relationship, as we've

39:06 previously stated. Yeah, but they were very, very

39:09 close. Yeah, she was the person who he

39:12 went to with everything. She knew everything and had ever

39:15 had possession of things like that.

39:17 She she was on top of it all business wise, personally,

39:19 everything, everything. Yeah, he for some reason

39:23 selected her to run his books and he trained her and her

39:29 loyalty 100% was with him and she did everything she did, she

39:33 did for him and for the betterment of of him and his

39:36 business. She was his trustee, the

39:40 executor of his will. And in August of 1997, sorry, in

39:46 sorry. In June of 1997, he gave her an

39:50 envelope and said to her, don't open this until like, you'll

39:55 know when to open this. Yeah, you don't need to open it

39:58 now. I just need you to hold on to

40:00 this. You'll know when the right time.

40:01 She was like, when will I know? And he's like, you'll know if

40:04 it's the right time to open it. Yeah, yeah.

40:07 And so she was like, OK, so she's tucked it away in, in, you

40:10 know, with, in with all the other important documents.

40:14 Around the same time, he told Ann that he wanted to divorce

40:18 Carol. And it wasn't an easy thing to

40:23 do. Like, I mean, I guess, well, you

40:25 know. Because he didn't want her

40:27 getting anything. No, none of them.

40:29 That's why it was money. It was all yeah.

40:32 But I mean, I guess divorce is never easy, no, And sometimes

40:36 what it's easier to stay with a person.

40:38 Maybe they had this, you know, wildlife rescue park.

40:43 Like how would you even think? Like how would you even come to

40:47 giving that up? You know, they had a lot of

40:49 assets in common and it was it would have been so freaking

40:54 messy. And as you said, he also then

40:57 didn't want her to have anything, even though a huge, a

41:01 vast amount of his wealth that he'd accumulated, he'd

41:04 accumulated while he was married.

41:06 Yeah. To her.

41:07 Not just with her, but married to her, yeah.

41:09 I mean her, I think her name was on like the some of the real

41:12 real Realty business side of things as well like.

41:15 So I think she was the driver in that, yeah.

41:18 Really. So I think that was like, that

41:20 was a huge that that really tipped them over in terms of how

41:23 much money they were making. And I think that meant that,

41:25 yeah, he wasn't able to just split from her and go, oh, yeah,

41:28 you have that or, you know, I'll take half of that because he was

41:30 like, no, you're not getting any of it.

41:32 When actually she did contribute and she did participate in in

41:36 that growth of that wealth. Yeah.

41:38 For sure, and I think she was quite the savvy businesswoman

41:41 herself. Yeah, I think she's she doesn't

41:43 come across the brightest tool in the shed at times, but I

41:45 think she might be. Yeah.

41:47 And when she applies herself, I mean, yeah, we'll get to a bit

41:50 more of this later on, but if she, if she applies herself and

41:54 puts herself into it, she's, she can be very successful.

41:57 Absolutely, yeah. On Friday, August 15th in 1997.

42:04 Oh. Can we just go back two months

42:06 prior? To that oh Yep, sorry.

42:07 Yeah. So as he's talking about wanting

42:10 to divorce her. So in about June of that of

42:13 1997, he actually applied for a restraining order with the

42:18 court, which was denied by the courts.

42:22 And this is where I think we sort of come into that crossroad

42:25 of whether or not, you know, that Carol was sort of saying

42:28 that it was his Alzheimer's, that that was maybe ticking into

42:31 certain things that he thought she was doing things when she

42:33 wasn't and was. Yeah.

42:35 So battle very whatever reasons, which would be very unusual for

42:39 a court if he was saying that she was, she was saying he was,

42:42 she was going to kill him and that he was scared of her, you

42:45 know. And so he wanted this

42:46 restraining order. But for whatever reason, and we

42:49 can't find the court documents and no one knows exactly what

42:52 the judge's decision on this was and why, but he decided that

42:56 there was no need for a restraining order.

42:58 I have seen this. Oh.

42:59 You've seen it, Yeah. There's like literally you can

43:01 on online, there's like just the snippet of the bottom part of

43:05 the court document. So everything else is redacted

43:08 and it's like the the judges reasoning, Yeah.

43:12 And it was lack of evidence, yes, Yeah.

43:15 Yeah, because he's sort of what the inference of like that was,

43:18 apparently. Is that her just saying, oh, you

43:21 know, I want to kill you doesn't actually mean that she's going

43:23 to kill him like that. Well, we need to be as, as Don's

43:26 lawyer says, he's like, we've got free speech.

43:30 So you can say you're going to kill someone, but that doesn't

43:32 mean you're going to kill them. So you can't actually be

43:34 persecuted for that. That's it.

43:36 So but but he walked away from that court and if he was

43:42 genuinely scared of her killing him, would he not have then gone

43:45 and moved into somewhere else and not lived with her?

43:49 Nope. He went and moved back into the

43:51 same He slept in the same bed as her.

43:52 He lived in the same house as her from that day for two months

43:56 before this next event. So was there much in it?

44:01 Was was it? Was the restraining order really

44:02 required? I don't know.

44:06 I don't know. But then this happens.

44:09 So like my thought is yes. But anyway let's get into this.

44:13 So Friday, Friday the 15th of August in 1997 and tries to ring

44:20 Don and can't get a hold of him she needs.

44:23 So as far as Anne is aware, Don has gone taken some cars down to

44:30 Costa Rica to sell. Well, he was.

44:32 Yeah, he was planning on taking them.

44:33 I don't think he had taken all of them yet or something.

44:36 Anyway, Anne needed to do some paperwork for it.

44:39 She needed the VIN numbers or something.

44:40 Yeah, so that she could do the paperwork to transfer the deeds

44:43 or whatever down to. Costa Rica.

44:45 Costa Rica, yeah. And this had been done many,

44:49 many times before, so Don knew that he needed to provide this

44:52 information to Anne at some point, but she hadn't received

44:57 it from him. She tried calling him.

44:58 He never if he ever didn't answer her calls, he would then

45:01 always call back or make contact with her in some way.

45:05 She didn't get any response from him for a couple of days.

45:11 So on on the Sunday she calls Carol and she's like, I'm trying

45:15 to get a cold of dawn. Where is he?

45:17 And Carol's like, well, I actually haven't seen him since

45:19 yesterday. Was it?

45:26 I think the last time she saw him was the 17th.

45:29 Yes, I haven't seen him since yesterday.

45:31 And, and and she, Carol says to Anne, do you think I should call

45:36 the police? And Anne's like, yeah, you think

45:40 like if he's missing. Yeah, if you haven't seen him

45:42 either, yeah, call the police. So Carol kind of has to then

45:47 call the police, Yeah. So she reports him missing on

45:49 the 19th of. August.

45:52 Yeah, sorry. She says that she last saw him

45:54 on the morning of the 18th. She reported him missing at 1:30

45:58 PM on the 19th. Yeah, yeah.

46:00 And that well that, yeah, they're basically saying that he

46:02 that the disappearance date is the is August 18th.

46:05 Yeah. The last known actual physically

46:09 seen cited him other than Carol is the 17th of August.

46:14 And I don't know that Carol's actually even said that she has

46:16 seen him physically. She's only spoken to him, maybe

46:19 on the phone, no. No, she saw him.

46:21 No, she said she saw him. So on the morning of the on the

46:25 morning of the 18th, this is what she claims happened.

46:29 Yeah. She's left home at 3:00 in the

46:31 morning. That's right.

46:32 Sorry. To go and get milk by product

46:36 for the cats. I don't even know what milk by

46:38 product is, but whatever. Milk by product from the cats?

46:41 From a supermarket. What supermarket's selling that

46:44 at 3:00 AM in the morning? Fucking weird.

46:46 Yeah. And I actually don't know.

46:48 I couldn't find anything to see whether this was a normal

46:50 pattern of yeah for her. So I don't actually know whether

46:54 she went at 3:00 every. That was Monday morning.

46:56 That's when you went and go. Go pick that up.

46:57 Yeah, I don't know. On the way home from this

47:00 supposed trip to the supermarket, her car breaks

47:03 down. Yes.

47:04 And a sheriff's car pulls in to sort of help her or see what's

47:09 going on. And one of the sheriff's is

47:12 actually her brother. And anyway, whatever transpired,

47:17 the other sheriff actually drove her home.

47:20 I don't know whether her brother was helping her sort out a card,

47:22 not sure. And she claims that that morning

47:27 at 6:00 AM. So this sheriff's deputy has

47:30 dropped her back at her property somewhere around a little after

47:33 3:00 AM Yeah. She claims that she saw Don at

47:37 6:00 AM because and he was supposedly leaving for Costa

47:43 Rica in this car hauler. Yeah.

47:46 So he was meant to drop off some real estate signs to his

47:49 lawyer's office? Yep.

47:51 At about approximately 6:00 AM. Yep.

47:53 Which they they did. They were dropped off.

47:55 But no one saw him do that? No, but yeah, you might.

47:58 Yeah. I think you might have actually

47:59 seen him before he's left the house.

48:00 But he wasn't seen physically being the person drop off the

48:04 signs. Yes, but they were dropped off.

48:06 So there's only no one else saw Don other than Carol on that

48:10 date? On that date, Yes.

48:11 So we've got no proof of what her interaction was or anything

48:15 like that? Yeah.

48:16 Only her word that she saw him that morning, because no one

48:19 else did. Yeah.

48:20 And he, she claims when she's interviewed by police and when

48:23 she's interviewed by every media outlet.

48:25 And you will see this if you watch Tiger King.

48:27 You will see it if you watch any Carol Baskin, anything that has

48:31 to do with Don Lewis. Yeah.

48:33 She's claims that he said to her, yes, I've got to leave

48:36 early, early, early. Yeah, and she kind of like rolls

48:40 her eyes when she says that, like early, early, like, And I

48:45 just look at that and I'm like, the behaviour to me is weird.

48:49 Yeah, there's a real like when you hear it when she gets

48:52 interviewed about Don unless and like majority of those

48:57 interviews that I've that I've seen of her being interviewed

48:59 about that is beyond 2000, you know, like sort of stuff that

49:03 there's a real like over talking about it, like over it kind of

49:08 attitude from her that comes across.

49:10 And I don't know whether that's a personality trait of hers.

49:14 I mean, we don't know this person or whether yeah, she just

49:17 she's genuinely exhaust exasperated about talking about

49:20 it. You know, it's like, it's just

49:22 it doesn't come across well for. Her.

49:23 No, no, not at all. No, not at all.

49:28 It's it's really weird. Yeah.

49:31 Apparently Don told Carol to get Kenny, who was like a he.

49:36 Was like a handyman. Like a handyman farmhand.

49:39 Kind of. Did all the odds and odds and

49:40 ends of like run, run errands, all the.

49:43 Time. Yeah, he was an employee.

49:44 Anything that anything that Don needed doing, Kenny was the man.

49:47 Yep, to get the truck ready to leave early, early, early to

49:51 Costa Rica the next day. Yeah, yeah.

49:53 So he was supposed to be leaving for Costa Rica on the 19th.

49:57 Yeah, yeah. Yes, So bizarre.

50:01 So, yeah, at this point, Don's missing and Anne's like, oh, I

50:06 think this might be the time for me to open this envelope.

50:10 Yeah. And that's when Anne discovers

50:12 that Don had applied for the restraining order was contained

50:16 within that envelope. So this definitely arose and

50:19 suspicions, didn't it? Because although she and Don

50:23 were very close and Anne had a particular knowledge of their

50:27 relationship and that things weren't great and but she did

50:31 not know that Don had applied for this restraining order.

50:35 Against Carol, I think she obviously, yeah, she knew that

50:38 there was divorce on the cards, yeah, but didn't know that Don

50:42 was, yeah, feeling that he was unsafe by any means.

50:44 Yeah. And what Anne read in the in

50:47 that documentation was that Don felt like Carol was going to

50:55 kill him. He mentioned several times that

50:58 she'd made two particular threats that were quite pointed.

51:03 And he also mentioned the fact that she had access to a

51:07 revolver and that he couldn't find his own revolver.

51:10 His own revolver had got his own, not revolver.

51:13 He had a different kind of gun. I don't know, guns.

51:15 He had a different kind of gun that had gone.

51:17 He didn't know where it was. Yeah.

51:19 Yeah. Interesting.

51:21 Very interesting. Yeah.

51:23 So the police are like, all right, we've got this missing

51:25 person. The two people closest to him

51:27 really are Carolyn. And so let's let's dive deep.

51:31 Let's see where where this leads.

51:34 And excuse me, and was incredibly cooperative.

51:38 She did a polygraph. She answered every single

51:43 question. She allowed them to search her

51:45 house, her car, anything they wanted.

51:48 She was a completely open book. Carol did not cooperate.

51:55 Not which the the polygraph, I mean, so yeah, she says to this

52:03 daily. I mean, it looks on the surface

52:04 like she's not she's not cooperating.

52:06 And just about the polygraph I'm OK with because as she she has

52:12 stated, you know, after the fact and everything like that was the

52:14 instruction from her lawyer was to not do the polygraph 100%.

52:17 The thing is, you shouldn't do a polygraph because they're not

52:20 admissible in court. And if you're I mean, she's just

52:23 had her husband go missing. You don't know what where she's

52:25 at and what's going on. And like what's, you know, your

52:27 body wise in terms of your reaction to a very stressful

52:30 situation. Something may come off up on

52:33 that that isn't showing truth of like, you know, whether or not

52:36 you're telling lies about whether or not you've killed

52:38 your husband. So you don't want that being

52:40 recorded in some way and then used and then used against you.

52:44 Like so I do agree that OK, but there's other aspects of this

52:50 that she didn't participate in that as she should have.

52:53 She also did things that were so freaking questionable.

52:57 Yeah. A week after he disappeared, she

53:01 emptied Don's office and took literally everything out of it.

53:06 Yeah. So this is also the office that

53:08 Anne worked in. So I have another theory in all

53:11 of this though. OK, tell me in a SEC.

53:12 But she cut off the water and power to this building a week

53:16 after he disappeared. For all she knew, he was in

53:18 Costa Rica and was coming back. Yeah, yeah.

53:22 Go on, what's your theory? OK, so Don's car the following

53:26 on the 20th was found at the airport, right?

53:29 Yeah. So his van that he drove on the

53:31 regular basis, this was his his go about town car was found

53:35 parked at a very rural airport. Unmanned.

53:38 Airport unmanned airport and this airport was a bit dodgy,

53:41 right so you could get a plane fly out of that airport without

53:46 signing anything, without saying who you were and where the plane

53:49 was and where it was going I. Think if you were following

53:53 Civil Aviation, you know, guidelines, you should have

53:58 lodged a flight plan and whatever, but you could easily

54:02 just not. Yeah.

54:03 Because there's no one there actually tracking you or knowing

54:06 what you do. And they were just like, there

54:07 wasn't even a hanger there. They were just planes lined up

54:10 on the side of the runway. Yeah.

54:12 And don't own. Don't own a majority of.

54:14 Them several of those planes. So he was known for just, and he

54:16 was known for just buying, randomly buying planes.

54:19 It was one of these things that he just would spend a bucket

54:21 load of money on at the drop of a hat.

54:23 He'd also sell them though he'd do them up and sell them.

54:26 So again, it was another revenue stream for him of of course.

54:30 Or would he just do them up for other reasons to be able to fly

54:33 and do stuff so? What do you think he was doing

54:36 with them? Drug runs?

54:38 Yeah, maybe. But, but okay, so the biggest

54:42 plane that they had at that airport, which he had access to,

54:46 in order to get that plane to Costa Rica, I would need for

54:49 refuelling. Doesn't have to go to Costa

54:50 Rica. Where's it going?

54:51 So this is the thing, OK, So he owned not just planes at that

54:54 airport, he owned many, many, many planes, right?

54:56 And he bought and sold them as well.

54:58 So I think this is my theory. This is my theory that I am most

55:02 in love with. I've got many, I have many, but

55:05 this is my most, most, I think. Theory of what that has gone on

55:09 here, yeah, is that you literally to get to Costa Rica,

55:12 you have to island hop like fuel wise and things, right.

55:15 So and you're not gonna take one plane and do that with the drugs

55:18 and keep it in one plane. Like there's this whole you

55:20 watch a movie called American Made and you can find out how

55:22 they do all this. Right.

55:24 So what my thought is, is that he has loaded up his plane ready

55:28 to go and pick up drugs from a point potentially, right.

55:32 Not necessarily going all the way to Costa Rica or, you know,

55:34 anywhere else. Like so he's potentially just

55:36 flying, doing that first hop to collect or to drop off or

55:40 whatever. So yeah, because he would have

55:42 gone to go to Costa Rica. Yeah.

55:43 He flew out of a completely different airport on a

55:45 completely different plane. That's so he wasn't doing the

55:48 flight to Costa Rica from there. According to Carol.

55:51 Sorry. According to Anne, every time he

55:53 went to Costa Rica, he flew commercial out of Miami.

55:56 Yeah, exactly. So he's going down to Miami,

55:59 going down, you know, via Miami to Costa Rica on commercial and

56:03 he's got his business contacts down there for, you know, all

56:05 sorts of things, one maybe being drug runs, but then out of that.

56:11 But how are you? How are you proposing he got the

56:13 drugs down there? So he's bringing them into

56:17 America. OK, so how do you OK, how did he

56:19 get so. He's got planes that he's got

56:21 other people flying. There's not just his planes,

56:22 right? So he's got a whole system

56:24 going, a whole drug. Operation a full narco.

56:27 Full narco, right? I'm on.

56:30 I'm totally old boys. But I think all that, I think

56:33 this in some ways is a little bit innocent in that I think

56:35 he's got this whole drug operation happening, right.

56:38 And I think Carol is aware of it, right?

56:42 So she's cleared out that office to make sure that there is

56:44 nothing there incriminating in terms of that stuff because she

56:48 doesn't want to get not more not so much like to protect on, I

56:51 don't think. I think more to protect herself

56:53 and that being caught up in it. So I think he's flying this

56:57 plot, this plane somewhere over the Gulf, something's gone wrong

56:59 with the plane and he's crashed it because he's known for

57:01 crashing planes, right? He'd crashed three.

57:03 He didn't have a license anymore because it had been revoked.

57:06 So he'd, he'd had two like very minor, well, crashes, but I

57:12 packed it up. Major one.

57:13 Yeah, he had major one, but so I looked up on the FAA where he

57:16 can find his license and it doesn't actually state why it's

57:19 been revoked. But then you can go into

57:21 another, another link altogether and you can find out what all

57:24 the crashes are. Not all of them are reported,

57:27 but there was quite a bit in there of his crashes.

57:29 He's had quite a number of crashes and some and then you

57:33 got to consider the ones that he hasn't even reported, which from

57:35 what I could gather read it mainly people and they've found

57:39 exactly his crashes. But like actual pilot saying

57:43 that yeah, there's definitely evidence there of a lot more, a

57:45 lot worse. So, yeah, so I think he's done a

57:50 drug, he's gone to, you know, Island top, get the drugs and

57:55 he's crashed the plane or hit someone who and there's been

57:58 some sort of incident where, you know, like, yeah, someone's shot

58:00 him, whatever, being killed, murdered, yeah, or just had a

58:03 plane crash and crashed in the middle of the Gulf.

58:07 And that's that's why he wasn't hiding the car and that's why

58:09 the car was parked there. So you know openly that he was

58:11 just leaving out of the airport because the plan was he was

58:13 coming back. Oh, crazy.

58:16 I like this theory because the other thing I was just thinking

58:18 is, and this ties into the fact that Carol knows about it all,

58:23 is that she also had her pilot's license, Yes.

58:26 And the other thing is, I think less than 12 months before Don

58:31 disappeared, yes, she also became a master parachute

58:35 Packer, Yes. What the fuck out of nowhere?

58:39 Since when has she parachuted? She never has, not officially.

58:42 Not. So why would she need to become

58:44 a master parachute Packer, and why did she need her pilot's

58:47 license? Start the drug runs.

58:50 And she was loving these. Other people that were doing it

58:52 and said, and so she didn't have to.

58:53 So she wasn't using it, but she had the ability to fly a plane.

58:56 Because that's my another theory I have is that yeah, she flew

58:59 the plane and dropped him off somewhere over yeah, the Gulf or

59:01 whatever. But I honestly don't know that

59:04 I'm not convinced that she actually murdered Don I that's

59:07 the drug run 1 is my favorite theory.

59:10 I do think that that's more like and when you think of the

59:13 picture of who he was yeah as a person, I would not put put it

59:17 past a person of that character to the go pull yeah make a make

59:21 1,000,000 bucks out of doing this done.

59:23 I'm not. Couldn't care less about the

59:25 legalities of it. Yeah.

59:27 The, the thing that like when Carol talks about his flying and

59:30 like she proposes that what might have happened to Don is

59:36 that he's gone in a plane and he's tried to fly to Costa Rica

59:40 and something's happened to his plane over the Gulf of Mexico,

59:43 right? This is this is a, a theory that

59:46 Carol puts out there and she's like, because he knew how to fly

59:50 under the radar. That's all he did.

59:51 She's no. But there is no flying under the

59:53 radar. There is no such thing.

59:56 If you're flying above sea level, you're not flying under

59:58 the. You can't fly under the.

1:00:00 Radar stuff at certain points, yeah, I think they wouldn't be

1:00:03 picked up on the tower. I think you can be picked up

1:00:06 almost anywhere if you're flying, if you're above the

1:00:09 ocean, I think, or above sea level.

1:00:11 You just don't ping like it's not.

1:00:13 It doesn't pop up on their little on their little radars.

1:00:17 I don't know that that's. True, Peter I.

1:00:18 Need to ask Peter, I should have spoken to him about this before

1:00:21 he. Recorded, but I'm sure that is a

1:00:23 thing that you can fly under. Fly low, you fly low and you can

1:00:26 avoid. Actually, I don't think that's a

1:00:28 thing unless you're like flying very close to like mountains or

1:00:33 something. Yeah, yeah, I don't know.

1:00:36 Don't know. But anyway, that just, I don't

1:00:38 know. That sounded real SUS to me.

1:00:39 Yeah, but that was definitely, I mean, yeah, if he's doesn't

1:00:43 sound like he was the greatest pilot on Earth, No.

1:00:45 And so I I think that innocently in that respect, I actually

1:00:50 think he's had a plane crash and died.

1:00:52 I mean, we just haven't found the body in the plane wreckage.

1:00:54 Which I guess if he's flying over the Gulf of Mexico, chances

1:00:57 are. And where?

1:00:57 Would you if he won't start when the plane wasn't registered as

1:00:59 even leaving that airport, You know, you don't know where the

1:01:02 flight path was, you don't know which island he was going to, so

1:01:05 you wouldn't even know where to start to look anyway.

1:01:08 Yeah. Or on the other end of that

1:01:10 flight, something's gone on with the transfer over of the drugs

1:01:12 and and he's gotten killed in a, you know, interaction there.

1:01:17 But that's my, I feel like the that nothing else adds up as

1:01:22 quite as much as that. Yeah, Yeah.

1:01:24 But. Although, all right, let's now

1:01:26 talk about John's will and powers of attorney.

1:01:29 Yeah. So now that I go also, yeah,

1:01:31 this is a bit of a spanner in that theory in a way.

1:01:34 In a way, in a way, although I could actually there are, there

1:01:37 are probably, probably plausible reasons for yeah, this as well,

1:01:41 if we're going down that path. But Anne being the executor and

1:01:47 trustee, the will that she knew was written in one way.

1:01:53 And then obviously the office is cleared out and in the office

1:01:57 was the will and powers of attorney for Don.

1:02:02 Carol then presents the will to the family and to the attorney,

1:02:11 and it's not the one that Anne was Privy to.

1:02:14 No. And it has some really weird

1:02:17 wording to it. Yes, it does, but then if Even

1:02:21 so, the weird wording that we're talking about is it uses the

1:02:23 word if I happen to disappear. It says in the case of my

1:02:27 disappearance, yeah, Carol gets everything, yeah.

1:02:31 So yeah, that's a, it's a very weird wording to use,

1:02:35 particularly in the circumstances of like, who who

1:02:38 knows they're going to disappear.

1:02:39 You, in the case of my death, in the case of my disability,

1:02:43 whatever. Yeah, but disappearance, No, not

1:02:46 too many people want to predict their disappearance and.

1:02:48 Not many people disappear. Yeah, no.

1:02:51 So and particularly when like in this situation, obviously we

1:02:54 don't have a body, we don't have evidence of really anything at

1:02:57 all happening. He has disappeared, so, yeah.

1:03:04 And so it is a very interesting one that.

1:03:07 But I guess if you're running drug runs, you could get

1:03:12 captured. You could get like.

1:03:14 So maybe disappearance was on his mind.

1:03:18 I don't buy that. I don't know.

1:03:20 I think. I think Carol's doctored his

1:03:23 will. Yeah.

1:03:24 And she knows he's disappeared, so she's written that into it.

1:03:27 And look on on that. I mean, I don't believe that she

1:03:31 murdered her husband. I could be very much persuaded

1:03:35 that she has falsified documents to ensure that she got things

1:03:38 after I I think there is, you know, like, no doubt she

1:03:41 falsified these documents. Yeah, which I and I don't think

1:03:44 1 equates to the other in terms of like, if, you know, if she's

1:03:47 done that, that she had to have killed him.

1:03:48 I. I can't.

1:03:50 I I'm with you. I'm with you on that.

1:03:51 I I totally understand that. Yeah, but it doesn't.

1:03:56 You know what kind of a dad who was close with his children, he

1:04:00 was still close with his ex-wife too.

1:04:02 They still had. A very, very.

1:04:04 Weirdly, they still had a very close relationship.

1:04:08 Yeah, he for sure didn't disinherit his children like.

1:04:14 No, that that's yet wrong and I think that's wrong from Carol if

1:04:17 she doctored that well. She she says that he did not

1:04:20 want his children to get anything, that he wanted her to

1:04:23 get all of it and she felt that was unfair so she wanted to give

1:04:27 them 10%. I do you know what?

1:04:31 When reading Hero comes. How these heroes can be all

1:04:35 types of people, can't they? Yeah.

1:04:39 Look, I could come at the fact that maybe he was that much of A

1:04:42 prick that he'd say, you know, I don't want my kids inheriting

1:04:44 this. Why?

1:04:45 But that that's because he's for it.

1:04:47 No, No, there's not. But I think that he's the kind

1:04:50 of guy, from what I I've read about him and what I know about

1:04:52 him now, to be like, I have to do it on my own.

1:04:55 You can go fucking do it on your own.

1:04:57 I don't come at the fact that he would have gone.

1:04:58 I'm gonna give everything to Carol.

1:05:00 Yeah, because he wanted to divorce her.

1:05:02 Yeah, like he didn't want her to get anything.

1:05:03 He was more likely to have gone Kenny, you know.

1:05:06 Yeah, a good mate, My handyman. He's a mechanic bloke.

1:05:09 What's his name? Dale Daley.

1:05:10 Yeah. Dale live lively.

1:05:13 He has some had some dosh. Yeah.

1:05:14 Rather buried in a backyard somewhere, I reckon than anyone

1:05:17 getting it. Yeah, that's.

1:05:19 I honestly think that's that's the.

1:05:21 I I disagree disagree with that. I think he would want his

1:05:25 children to have it because when despite the fact he was a total

1:05:30 tight ass and would wear these $1.00 T-shirts and $20 jeans or

1:05:34 whatever, he did give his children money he did throughout

1:05:38 their lives. That anyway.

1:05:39 Yeah, he'd given them money like he helped them buy houses, he

1:05:43 helped them with their businesses.

1:05:44 He he did give them money along the way.

1:05:47 So I just don't think, I don't think he would have disinherited

1:05:51 them. And his wife Gladys, who I know,

1:05:55 she obviously sees the best in him.

1:05:57 Fuck only knows why, but she also says like there is no way

1:06:01 he wouldn't have left them at something.

1:06:03 Yeah, Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I can.

1:06:06 I can come at that, that Carol's.

1:06:09 Yeah, she's totally there. Allegedly, she has stopped these

1:06:14 documents. Yeah.

1:06:15 It's it's so bizarre, Don. So Kenny the handyman, he claims

1:06:21 in the in the Tiger King that the last words Don said to him

1:06:27 were If I can pull this off, it'll be the slickest thing I

1:06:31 ever did in my life. Which?

1:06:33 Is why I also think it was drug runs.

1:06:35 But wait for it. Because.

1:06:36 Kenny then financially gained from after after this after the

1:06:43 Tiger King Ed The first season Ed Carol sold Kenny $150,000

1:06:51 worth of real estate for $9980. Why?

1:06:58 $20 shy of 10 grand, which needed which, Yeah, needs to be

1:07:03 declared. Yeah.

1:07:04 Why you? I don't know.

1:07:07 You tell me why. Right, OK, well, right.

1:07:10 Did he? Did he, he helped him do

1:07:13 something. I watched interviews with him.

1:07:14 On top of that, he also, she also then in the subsequent

1:07:20 years gave him another and gave him, not sold him, gave him

1:07:25 another $300,000 worth of property.

1:07:28 So she's pretty much like, given him potentially more than she's

1:07:30 ever given the children, Yeah. It'd be close.

1:07:34 It'd actually be close. Yeah.

1:07:35 So what you're saying is did was that her paying him to say that

1:07:40 to well and get rid of the body or something?

1:07:45 That this is my theory. Yeah, this is my front.

1:07:48 Runner. That's your front runner.

1:07:49 But I also really like your theory.

1:07:53 I wouldn't be. I wouldn't.

1:07:54 Well, OK, maybe we can combine the two because I actually feel

1:07:58 like Kenny knew all about the drug run and was involved in all

1:08:02 of that too. Yeah.

1:08:03 So I think that that if that, if that's what was going on, I

1:08:05 reckon a whole lot of shit needed to be covered up so that

1:08:07 yeah, Carol and him potentially went then connected to it.

1:08:11 I just thought, what if Carol and Kenny were like, Don's come

1:08:15 back with the money and they've been like, well, we'll take this

1:08:19 1,000,000 bucks and we'll just top Don.

1:08:23 Nah, because I think he didn't make no, I reckon the drug runs

1:08:25 were going on for a long, long time.

1:08:27 I think that was a long term operation.

1:08:30 But what if he came? Why?

1:08:32 Why did this one trigger an issue?

1:08:33 Oh, you think? Yeah, it.

1:08:35 Could have simply been a plane issue.

1:08:36 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or it could have been drug runs

1:08:38 go wrong all the time. Yeah.

1:08:40 Could it could have been some Dick on a plane that's giving

1:08:43 him the the stuff who's gone. No, I'm not handing it over to

1:08:45 you. I'm going to take it and I'm

1:08:46 going to make the money out of it.

1:08:47 Yeah, You know what I mean? Like, who knows?

1:08:50 The detectives in this case also, like, really dropped the

1:08:53 ball. Yeah.

1:08:54 So, you know, Don's reported missing.

1:08:57 They find his van at the airport.

1:09:00 They let Carol take it home. Take it home.

1:09:02 Just sit in the, in the in the. Two days, for two days, two days

1:09:05 later, they go and look at the van and it's been wiped clean.

1:09:09 There is one fingerprint found, and that is of the mechanic

1:09:12 who'd recently serviced the. Vehicle four days earlier.

1:09:15 He he goes, of course my fingerprints were on it.

1:09:17 I said it fingerprints should be everywhere over it.

1:09:20 Yeah, because he he was interviewed by a guy and he said

1:09:22 do you wear gloves when you do your work?

1:09:24 You know, and he goes no. Why would I do that?

1:09:27 Look at my hand. Yeah, no, he goes.

1:09:28 No, no, my handprint, my fingerprint should have been all

1:09:30 over that car. Like, yeah.

1:09:32 And he'd done. He'd done something which meant

1:09:35 that he needed to be inside and outside the car.

1:09:37 Yes, exactly. Yeah, he said now.

1:09:40 It should have been. It should have been more.

1:09:41 They just found one fingerprint in that entire car and it was

1:09:44 like on the center, like console bit.

1:09:47 Yeah, yeah. Interest.

1:09:50 Yeah. Was it being wiped down for

1:09:52 drugs? I don't know.

1:09:55 In the car, Yeah. For drugs.

1:09:58 Or anyway, in the car they found Don's keys and a briefcase and I

1:10:03 don't think the briefcase had anything of noting it that I can

1:10:06 no that I could ascertain there's.

1:10:08 Nothing else but but again, what was in there before it had been

1:10:10 left at Carol's place for two days too exactly, so who knows?

1:10:14 Who knows? Who that was, that's a major

1:10:16 drop of the ball. But like, I mean, and I, I think

1:10:19 somebody will also talk about the fact that Carol's brother

1:10:22 who was in, he's obviously a police officer.

1:10:25 I'm not only a police officer, I think it's a sheriff.

1:10:27 So fairly highly ranked, you know, that he he potentially had

1:10:30 some sway in the investigation. I don't know.

1:10:35 Don't know if that's Carol says that her and her brother aren't

1:10:38 close. Yeah, that there's what I find

1:10:40 it a bit interesting. She'd say something like, you

1:10:42 know, I left home at 15 and he would have been 9:00.

1:10:45 So we went close, but I'm like. Yeah, but you still had nine

1:10:48 years with him. Yeah, and he's still your

1:10:50 brother. Yeah, so, but she rains, they're

1:10:51 not close and and everything that he wouldn't have done that

1:10:53 for her. But who knows?

1:10:55 Again, it's hard to know. The other interesting thing is

1:10:58 the mechanic that serviced that van claims that Don wanted him

1:11:04 to go with him on this trip. To Costa Rica, to Costa Rica,

1:11:06 which it tells me like 100% he was expecting to come back from

1:11:09 this trip. Because I know there's obviously

1:11:12 a in the second arguing they talked about the fact that, oh,

1:11:15 Don's alive and well in Costa Rica.

1:11:17 Yeah, there's absolutely nothing that supports that.

1:11:20 No, none whatsoever. That that the letter that you

1:11:22 kind of see a picture of in the in the documentary has been

1:11:26 proven to not be it. Was first doctored.

1:11:29 Yeah, yeah, it was fabricated. Fabricated so and so that was

1:11:33 picked up a lot in the media that Don and even I mean even

1:11:36 Carol was very openly speaking about it saying I've been found

1:11:39 alive and well in Costa Rica. It's there's been nothing to say

1:11:42 that's been supported and I don't think that that's what has

1:11:45 happened because as you know you're saying that he had plans

1:11:47 of being of being around the following day or so to leave to

1:11:51 Costa Rica. Not on that day going to Costa

1:11:54 Rica. He wouldn't have been saying

1:11:55 stuff like that to people and hey yeah come down with me and

1:11:57 you know hang out with my lady friends.

1:12:00 Exactly yeah. So I don't think that's that's

1:12:02 what's going on at all no. And and the fact that it would

1:12:05 take, as they say, multiple island hops to be able to get to

1:12:08 Costa Rica in that fashion. Yeah, in that tiny little plane.

1:12:12 Yeah, yeah. Oh my God.

1:12:16 Crazy. Carol another interview so not

1:12:19 long after Don disappeared, Carol was interviewed by I think

1:12:24 I wrote down and it's a news show called Hard copy apparently

1:12:30 and she a quote from that interview was maybe he just

1:12:37 doesn't know where he is and how to get home.

1:12:39 Like she's really pushing this Alzheimer's narrative and she

1:12:43 kind of like starts to cry, but there's no.

1:12:46 Ideas. Yeah.

1:12:48 It's so disingenuine. It's it's bizarre to me.

1:12:51 Yeah. The other thing, another thing I

1:12:53 find so well about Carol, like she's she's done herself no

1:12:58 favours if she's not involved in this, but in order to file his

1:13:03 death certificate and then obviously execute his will, he

1:13:05 needed to be missing for a period of 12 months.

1:13:09 And so 12 months. And one day after Don went

1:13:13 missing, Carol filed the for a death certificate.

1:13:19 And then. No, it's five years.

1:13:20 Sorry, it was 2000 and. 205 years was sorry so it's five

1:13:23 years and one day Carol filed for the death certificate and.

1:13:30 I think that the reasoning behind that is because she was

1:13:34 struggling to pay for like the upkeep of the cats and stuff and

1:13:39 what the the way that it was wasn't until he died that she

1:13:42 could get access to more of the money.

1:13:47 I I don't buy that. I don't buy that they're a

1:13:50 married couple. They had shared finances.

1:13:54 They had shared investments in real estate which were

1:13:57 generating a significant amount of income.

1:13:59 Yeah, but would she had access to that money?

1:14:02 Would maybe he, the ex-wife and the kids have put holds on

1:14:05 things while he's, well, he was. How could he?

1:14:07 They had no claim disappear. They had no claim over.

1:14:10 It no, but I guess maybe well they aren't sure where he is.

1:14:12 Would they be able to legally put stops on things?

1:14:16 I don't. Know, I never saw anything to

1:14:17 that effect. Yeah.

1:14:18 I think she had access to their money and she was just using

1:14:21 that as an excuse. Yeah, because when she had

1:14:24 access, she had at least, even if she didn't have access to

1:14:27 like the lump sum of money which that he had.

1:14:30 Yeah, she certainly had access to the income they were

1:14:33 generating from their properties.

1:14:34 Yeah, Yeah. Which was a significant amount

1:14:37 of money they they owned. Oh my God, it's an amazing

1:14:41 amount of real estate. Yeah.

1:14:44 So no, I don't buy that. Yeah, she did end up remarrying

1:14:50 again in 2004 to Howard Baskin. I mean, Oh my God, the wedding.

1:14:58 Oh, God. If you do nothing else after

1:15:01 listening to this podcast, Google Carol and Howard Baskin

1:15:06 wedding photos. Yeah, Oh my God, it is.

1:15:09 So Carol's wearing like a nice, you know, sort of wedding, white

1:15:13 boho style wedding gown. She is a lover of a flower

1:15:17 crown, which just makes me sick. Oh, she's a grown woman.

1:15:22 No one needs a flower Chrome. Come on.

1:15:26 Howard is wearing like an animal print.

1:15:31 Like toga or like a it's. Like like a boy toy like he's.

1:15:37 Just and he's got, he's got like a club like Bam, bam Bam.

1:15:41 Bam. Like kind of.

1:15:42 Style and there's a photo of them.

1:15:43 Let's see if we can actually pop this on our social.

1:15:46 For sure. There's a photo of him with a

1:15:50 collar and Carol's and he's on all fours.

1:15:53 Yes, and Carol's holding the leash.

1:15:55 He's like, he's the cat. He's so gross.

1:16:02 It's so bad. So bad.

1:16:04 Nah, I can't. And I, they're so in love, like,

1:16:08 and they're like old and in love.

1:16:11 He worships the ground she walks.

1:16:13 He literally does like, so there's that the the Louis

1:16:18 Theroux documentary if because I, I love him, I think he's

1:16:22 great. I just think he whatever he does

1:16:23 is great. It's a very different take.

1:16:27 Yeah. On this whole thing.

1:16:28 And I, because I kind of like, because he is fresh, refreshing

1:16:31 like that. Yeah.

1:16:32 It's not dramatized at all. He tells it as it is.

1:16:35 And so, and I, and I think with that in place, you kind of do

1:16:39 see who Carol is and who Howard are for a little bit more real.

1:16:44 Agreed. And so there's but there's a

1:16:46 scene where he's interviewing them and he does talk.

1:16:49 He doesn't go to ask a question about Don and Howard like, oh,

1:16:52 you know, but he barks up a bit, you know, like sort of, you

1:16:55 know, like protective and stuff. And and Louis sort of turns out,

1:16:58 oh, he's very protective of you, isn't he?

1:16:59 Like but it's like real false at the same time.

1:17:02 Oh, it's, it's weird because he's like weaker than her, like

1:17:06 he's, he is. So he's the subordinate in that

1:17:09 relationship. Like she dominates him.

1:17:13 Something shocking. I'm sure he loves it in the

1:17:15 bedroom. Gross.

1:17:18 Oh, I I did read somewhere, or here somewhere that someone

1:17:23 mentioned someone referred to Carol as a bit of a Wildcat in

1:17:26 the sack. Oh my God.

1:17:28 Gross. Oh, she probably is, I'm sure.

1:17:31 I mean, it sounds like she, yeah, sounds like she's done

1:17:35 some stuff. Yeah, so, but yeah, I thought

1:17:41 that same thing in that interview with Louis Theroux.

1:17:44 I'm like he he was trying to look at the fucking mark.

1:17:51 Oh my God. It just made him look really

1:17:53 pathetic. But yeah, if you want to like a

1:17:55 little a bit more of AI, guess a real look at what's going on

1:17:58 with all that sort of stuff. Like especially I think in terms

1:18:01 of Joe Exotic, that Louis Theroux interview and the whole

1:18:05 that his documentary gives a different spin on things.

1:18:08 Yeah, yeah, agreed. It's worth a watch.

1:18:11 It's definitely worth a watch. Let's talk a little bit about

1:18:13 Joe Anxiety and Tiger King now. Well.

1:18:15 In relation to Kalabaskin in particular, obviously he's in

1:18:18 jail for trying to kill her, have her killed.

1:18:24 And I think you watch the Tiger King series and you sort of go,

1:18:29 yeah, should he be in jail? You don't want him to be in jail

1:18:31 because you like him like it's. Charismatic.

1:18:33 He's very charismatic and, well, should we say maybe a bit

1:18:37 narcissistic? Yeah.

1:18:39 You think there's so many things that are problematic with him

1:18:42 that yeah, when you. I mean, yeah, I think Louis

1:18:44 through even said it. Then if he's into he goes.

1:18:46 I'm really so disappointed because in myself because I like

1:18:48 him. Yeah.

1:18:49 But yeah, he, he's, there's so much more to him that I dislike.

1:18:56 One, the fact that his husbands have all been 19 when he's met

1:19:00 them and then become massively drug, drug addict.

1:19:05 Well, yeah, Well, they're massive drug addicts.

1:19:07 And that he has literally then just he's created them to be

1:19:10 drug addicts. I mean, you look at that,

1:19:12 particularly that Travis, you see, yeah, you see him at the

1:19:14 very beginning of, like, him arriving at the park and then

1:19:18 you see him a few years down the park, down the track.

1:19:22 Yeah. And like the difference in him,

1:19:24 I mean, just his facial features and things like that, his

1:19:27 demeanor, clearly he arrived as a bit.

1:19:30 Well, he was just, he was described as a pothead.

1:19:33 Well, that's a big. I mean, being a pothead is a is

1:19:35 a long way between pothead and. Crackhead.

1:19:37 You see him? Yeah, Which?

1:19:38 Is what he is at the end. Yeah.

1:19:41 And so sad. That's tragic.

1:19:43 Yeah. Just that's really hard.

1:19:45 Yeah. Agreed.

1:19:46 Agreed. Yeah, I mean, he, I think I, my

1:19:49 belief is that Joey Zodic Ball is in jail.

1:19:51 Oh, a number of reasons, not just.

1:19:53 What he did with Carol. No, agreed.

1:19:55 And he is where he needs to be. And Yup, that's that's all

1:19:58 worked out the way he needs to. But God, he's a character.

1:20:01 Oh, God, yeah. He he created a song.

1:20:05 So he hates Carol. Yeah.

1:20:08 Hates her beyond measure. Yeah, obviously he wants her

1:20:11 dead. Like he had YouTube channels

1:20:15 dedicated to like he'd he'd read her Diaries which went

1:20:20 fabricated. And he just like everything he

1:20:23 did, he had like, he'd hang likenesses of her, like, as in

1:20:29 hang them to like with a noose to like kill them.

1:20:33 Like he he did some really, really weird and really, oh,

1:20:38 shit. But he also wrote a song about

1:20:41 it. Oh, God, yeah.

1:20:42 It's called here Kitty Kitty. Please do yourselves a favour

1:20:48 and have a listen the. Video clips.

1:20:49 Oh. The video, so he's got a like

1:20:51 and it is a good likeness, she thought.

1:20:54 Exactly like. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:20:56 Actually, when I first saw it had to like double take going

1:20:59 why did we do that? Yeah, I thought the same thing.

1:21:01 The other thing I thought was, geez, he's actually got a really

1:21:04 nice singing voice. Ohh.

1:21:06 Guess I would say. No, it's not him.

1:21:09 He paid someone else. Yeah, or whoever he paid.

1:21:12 You've got a beautiful singing. I've worked it out as as the

1:21:15 episodes go along with Tiger King and you see, you hear

1:21:18 different songs that he's released, right?

1:21:19 Yeah, I think it was about the third or fourth song.

1:21:21 I'm kind of going, jeez, yeah, he's got a good voice and I

1:21:23 went, but you know what? He sounds different.

1:21:26 In. Every song like, as if it's a

1:21:29 different singer. It is, yeah.

1:21:32 Every song's a different person singing, yeah.

1:21:35 Didn't even get the same person. Same person like Beyoncé does.

1:21:38 Yeah, yeah. Don't you dare.

1:21:41 OK, so I'm just gonna read out my favorite verse from the song.

1:21:46 I'm not gonna sing it because you know, my no, my throat.

1:21:50 What if she was a rich woman? She had rich taste.

1:21:54 She felt the blood running through her veins.

1:21:56 She liked the life she had. She loved her big cats and the

1:22:00 beauty of being untamed. Well, everything was fine, just

1:22:06 as sweet as wine, but her husband went and disappeared.

1:22:09 But then it got a little crazy, got a little hazy, and the cop

1:22:13 said, said there's something wrong here.

1:22:16 Oh, here, Kitty, Kitty mama's got some treats for you.

1:22:23 He's just, it's just and it goes on.

1:22:25 It goes on like that for what, 1234 verses?

1:22:29 Oh my. God, it's actually, it's

1:22:33 actually pretty fucking poetic, honestly.

1:22:35 It's actually really give it a give it a listen.

1:22:37 Oh, Jesus. Yeah, but no, the the video clip

1:22:40 for that is just next level. Oh, it's so oh, because we

1:22:43 shouldn't. We haven't even mentioned that.

1:22:44 The biggest thing that Joe's audit was accusing Carol Basket

1:22:47 of doing was feeding Don Lewis to her tigers.

1:22:51 So he he claims that so Joe, Joe infer.

1:22:55 Well, no, he doesn't. He's full out.

1:22:57 Explicitly says that Carol ground him up in the meat

1:23:01 grinder and fed him to the Tigers.

1:23:03 Right in the video clip is the the look alike standing there at

1:23:06 the the tiger cage with their tongs and a bit of meat and

1:23:09 dangling it in for the tigers and feeding it and there's a

1:23:12 hand like on the plate it's. Like a head.

1:23:15 Yeah. It's so funny.

1:23:17 It's so funny. You've got to watch it.

1:23:19 Like you wouldn't even believe that somebody would put

1:23:21 something like this out. It's actually.

1:23:23 So good. And then not what not think

1:23:24 they'd get like, you know, sued or something.

1:23:26 God. The family, like Don's family,

1:23:29 actually then called the police after all this came out and

1:23:33 this, especially this video clip.

1:23:34 Yeah. And they were like, well, we

1:23:37 want that meat grounded. DNA test.

1:23:39 Yes. We want to know whether dad has

1:23:41 gone through it or not. Yeah.

1:23:43 The police. What?

1:23:43 Yeah. We're not doing that.

1:23:44 No, no, There's not enough evidence to support.

1:23:47 Well, apparently, I mean, I know again, in the documentary, Joe

1:23:52 says, like, you know, well, the a lion, a Tiger's stomach is so

1:23:54 acidic that it can they can swallow like a chicken pole and

1:23:57 there's nothing, nothing like no bones will come out the other

1:23:59 end kind of stuff. But a chicken is a little bit

1:24:01 different to human bones. There's some rather large bones

1:24:04 in a human that you'd have to get still get rid of.

1:24:07 And there's no evidence of those.

1:24:08 No. His Joe's other theory was that

1:24:11 she buried him under a septic tank.

1:24:12 Yeah. And that's sort of being a bit

1:24:14 debunked as well, that that septic tank one either didn't

1:24:17 exist, which I think they've proven it does exist, but it was

1:24:20 actually put in before Dom went missing.

1:24:23 Yeah. So yeah, his two theories really

1:24:26 don't hold a lot of water. But no, they don't.

1:24:27 But yeah, he was very adamant that she fed into.

1:24:30 The I actually, I had a bit of a chuckle to myself, though,

1:24:33 because Carol talks about about Joe Exotic's theory of her

1:24:39 putting Don's body through the meat grinder in the Tiger King

1:24:43 documentary. And she says she's like, I

1:24:45 couldn't even fit my hand in there.

1:24:47 And she's like fitting her hand in there.

1:24:49 Yeah, yeah. And I'm like, this is

1:24:51 reminiscent of bloody OJ and the glove.

1:24:54 Trying to put his, yeah, put his hand, you know.

1:24:55 Trying to get his hand in the glove, It doesn't fit.

1:24:57 I'm like, oh, hands in. There.

1:24:59 It looks like it actually fits to me.

1:25:01 So yeah, that's just a throwback to another episode.

1:25:04 If you haven't listened to it, go back and listen to our Jasons

1:25:07 and Tube Harbour. Oh gosh.

1:25:10 Oh yeah. There's so much in that

1:25:12 documentary that you could go over forever and a day on the

1:25:15 stuff in that. Not a lot.

1:25:16 I mean this political career, for one thing.

1:25:18 Oh yeah, he well announced he was going to run for president

1:25:21 in 2006. 1616 was it because it was.

1:25:26 Yeah, yeah, yeah. That you know that then when

1:25:30 Trump was coming to the end of his regime, I was going to save

1:25:34 it. Oh yeah, that works.

1:25:38 So in when in his first stint and they were really convinced a

1:25:41 lot of the people who have this hashtag free Joe Exotic.

1:25:44 Oh, this is Trump was going to pardon him.

1:25:47 Yeah. And so on his on like the last

1:25:50 few days of his of his presidency, there's literally a

1:25:52 limo parked out the front of the of the jail in the thought that

1:25:58 at any point Joe could walk out of that jail from being

1:26:01 pardoned, that Donald Trump was going to do that for him.

1:26:04 I mean, come on. I mean, when you look at the

1:26:06 people that Donald Trump actually pardon.

1:26:08 Well, he probably should have been on that list.

1:26:11 Yeah, exactly. Absolutely.

1:26:12 Well, but just Joey's what it was not on his radar to be

1:26:16 included in. No, of course not at all.

1:26:19 Does he think he is, honestly? Joe Exotic, but you know that

1:26:24 he's like one of the I think he's like has the most amount of

1:26:27 fan mail going into his jail as well.

1:26:29 And he apparently prolifically responds to everything he gets

1:26:34 sent in jail. We should write to him.

1:26:35 He's about the only inmate that I would write a letter to.

1:26:38 You know, I mean, I'm not into that kind of shit.

1:26:40 No, But he's one that I would potentially be like.

1:26:43 That'd be fun. Yeah.

1:26:45 And especially if he responds to nearly everyone.

1:26:48 Oh man, yeah. Imagine that I'd.

1:26:49 Love to stir him up with a bit of a, you know, like, come on,

1:26:51 tell us you your real theory about Don Lewis and how'd she

1:26:55 get him through the meat grinder and yeah.

1:26:58 Tell us more like so. But at that point, Carol and Joe

1:27:05 had never met face to face. No, I love that.

1:27:08 I think that was in the Louis Theroux 1 when she said that.

1:27:10 I'm like, yeah, they've only ever been in the same room as

1:27:13 each other in court in course. Yeah.

1:27:15 Other than that, they've never smoked.

1:27:17 They've never actually spoken, no.

1:27:19 Yet he has that much of A hatred for her.

1:27:22 Really interesting. We've got to go back to

1:27:25 something that you started to touch, base, touch on at the

1:27:28 beginning around her. Carol Baskins, first husband

1:27:31 Michael Murdoch. Yeah.

1:27:32 Oh, yes, yeah. So we get this whole story, this

1:27:36 Jeff Lowe becomes part of the Tiger Kings story.

1:27:40 And really, I mean, he ultimately kind of, he came in

1:27:43 and kind of screwed Joe over. He was a major part of, you

1:27:47 know, trapping him to be put in jail for for all of this.

1:27:51 He got a bit in line with the with the.

1:27:53 Well, I think he was coming his own arsenal always to not be

1:27:56 caught up in it too much because he hated Carol as much as Joe

1:27:58 did, I think. But so he was it basically

1:28:02 people sort of say like, hey, this Jeff Lowe was really out to

1:28:06 get Joe again. Yeah, get Joe.

1:28:09 And people have found images of Michael Murdoch and Jeff Lowe

1:28:16 and the theory is that they're the same person.

1:28:20 And it was actually Carol telling her ex-husband to go in

1:28:25 and do that on her behalf and that Michael Murdoch is Jeff

1:28:31 Lowe. Have you seen the photo?

1:28:33 Yeah. Oh, it's uncanny.

1:28:34 Uncanny how I love how much they look alike.

1:28:36 Yeah, it is. It is uncanny.

1:28:39 And so no one's actually just proven this either.

1:28:42 No. And this is only like a recently

1:28:44 kind of discovered thing, really.

1:28:46 Yeah. Like, well, actually.

1:28:48 A couple of years. Yeah, well, actually after the

1:28:50 documentaries of like, as in after the Tiger King series have

1:28:53 both come out. Yeah.

1:28:54 So yeah. That I love.

1:28:57 I love it too. I'll put the I'll put the photos

1:28:59 up on our socials. OK, There's a great one where it

1:29:02 shows each of them individually and then one of their faces like

1:29:05 combined and it's literally the bottom photo just looks like

1:29:09 them both. Like it's amazing the the

1:29:12 symmetry of their faces marry up unbelievably.

1:29:16 I love it. It could be this is legit this.

1:29:19 I mean, imagine that. Imagine if Carol was that

1:29:21 conniving. I think she is.

1:29:24 That she she could get her ex-husband who was an abusive

1:29:26 piece of shit. Yeah.

1:29:27 Which Jeff Lowe fits that profile.

1:29:32 Has multiple wives, Yeah. Or girlfriends on the side or

1:29:34 whatever known to his current wife who was pregnant, you know,

1:29:37 all that sort of shit. Yeah, what is with the?

1:29:40 Multiple. I just can't even.

1:29:42 Yeah, we haven't even touched on that, no.

1:29:44 Whole other episode but yeah. So yeah, Carol Baskin has got

1:29:48 her ex-husband to go in and poses this Jeff Lowe and take

1:29:51 over Joe's zoo and take all his money off him.

1:29:56 Yep. And screw him over absolutely to

1:29:59 to the point where he's in jail. For how would you put it past

1:30:01 her? No.

1:30:03 In many of the litigations that have come up against Carol, she

1:30:09 has represented herself in court and won every single time.

1:30:15 She has not lost a court case against her.

1:30:17 No. She's.

1:30:19 I think she's more of it. Yeah, I think so.

1:30:22 I think. So I think she likes people

1:30:23 thinking that she's dits because I think they can get away with

1:30:25 doing stuff. Yep.

1:30:26 Well, even Joe, I mean, got me, was the narcissism, but he was

1:30:29 like, so like, oh, I've got her, you know, yeah, I'll take that

1:30:32 bitch to court. Yep.

1:30:33 Nah, She had him over a barrel the entire time.

1:30:35 She knew what she was doing. Yeah.

1:30:36 Yep. Oh, God, it's such an

1:30:39 interesting case. Just really quickly, I want to

1:30:41 run through some of the theories that have been put out there of

1:30:46 what happened to Don. I know we've discussed what we

1:30:48 think's happened, but yeah, theory #1 is that he was

1:30:51 murdered by Carol. This is, I would say this is the

1:30:55 most popular theory, you know, And I think that's because

1:30:59 people just believe what they've seen on Yeah, on Tiger King, and

1:31:03 it is what it is. Second theory is that he faked

1:31:07 his own death and that he's living it up in Costa Rica and

1:31:10 he's alive and well and, you know, living a life of luxury

1:31:14 down there. Yeah, multiple girlfriends.

1:31:17 Another theory is that he was either abducted or murdered by

1:31:20 criminals because of potential illicit activities and business

1:31:25 ventures that he was involved in.

1:31:26 Yeah, here in like in the States, I mean, like I think

1:31:29 that's yeah, yeah, yeah. Accidental death.

1:31:31 So he's somehow, you know, become something's happened and

1:31:36 no one knows what actually happened to him.

1:31:38 Foul play by a family member because he had screwed over

1:31:43 family members in the past. Like, so he had, I don't know if

1:31:46 it was siblings or aunties or uncles or cousins or someone who

1:31:51 needed money would destitute and he just refused to help them

1:31:54 out. So have they.

1:31:56 But then to what gain? I just don't see that that's,

1:31:59 you know, feasible. Yeah.

1:32:01 And then there has been, you know, a few noted sightings of

1:32:06 him in Costa Rica, which people then believe.

1:32:09 And that sort of bolsters the theory that he is living there,

1:32:11 but. He's a pretty everyday man kind

1:32:15 of looking person. Yeah, You know what I mean?

1:32:16 Like. There was nothing outstanding

1:32:19 about him. I think he would.

1:32:20 I think a number of people would look the same as him.

1:32:23 Yeah, yeah. Agreed, and then I'm loving your

1:32:26 theory. Uh huh.

1:32:28 That's I honestly, I mean as much as like yes, I I agree and

1:32:31 with many and many things in that Carol is not a St.

1:32:35 No, oh, she's she's culpable. If not of his murder, then of

1:32:43 lots. Of other things, I just don't

1:32:46 believe that she murdered him and that she could have pull

1:32:51 that off. Why don't you believe that?

1:32:53 I don't think that she is a murderer.

1:32:55 I don't think that that's her who she is as a person, but I

1:32:59 just think there'd be evidence somewhere.

1:33:02 Something would be more obvious in terms of some evidence of

1:33:06 that. The thing that makes me think

1:33:08 that she's not is why the fuck would she on the Tiger King?

1:33:12 Why would she agree to interviews like those with Louis

1:33:15 Theroux or with CNN or all of these media outlets?

1:33:19 Like if you had something to hide, if you were guilty of

1:33:21 murdering your yeah, you just wouldn't put yourself out there,

1:33:24 would you? But then you know.

1:33:26 And that's the point against the drug run thing, I think makes a

1:33:31 lot of sense in that I think she knew about what was going on and

1:33:34 was in some way involved in that to the point where like when he

1:33:37 didn't come home, she knew whole fuck.

1:33:40 I've got a I've got to bury something, like they've got to

1:33:43 cover something. So when she goes into those

1:33:45 interviews and she doesn't come across well, I do think it's

1:33:48 because she has knowledge of something.

1:33:49 Yeah. I don't think she knows whether

1:33:51 he crashed or whether he met foul play on the other end of

1:33:54 his drop off. I don't know whether she knew he

1:33:56 necessarily had a drug run that day.

1:33:58 You know what I mean? I don't know if she knew what

1:34:01 was meant to happen on that day, but I know that I think she knew

1:34:05 Shit. Shit's gone down.

1:34:07 Yeah, And I have to. And now I have to make sure I

1:34:09 don't get caught up in this. Yeah.

1:34:11 And maybe Kenny, too. Yeah.

1:34:12 And they've covered up whatever they need to cover up.

1:34:16 But I think these disappearance was separate to their cover.

1:34:19 Up fair? Yep.

1:34:20 That's why I think it actually, that actually makes sense

1:34:22 because there's no evidence whatsoever of his body of

1:34:26 anything like that. So I just think there'd be some

1:34:28 sort of evidence that we would be able to find if she did

1:34:32 murder him, yeah. On their property.

1:34:34 Yeah, on their property or in that van or at the airport or

1:34:37 whatever that be, I think there'd be something we'd find.

1:34:40 Yeah. Yeah.

1:34:41 I. Agree with that.

1:34:43 Someone would have seen something, you know, like, you

1:34:45 know what I mean? Moving the body around or

1:34:47 something. Something.

1:34:48 Yeah. But there's nothing.

1:34:50 So I think he got on a plane and we never saw him again.

1:34:53 Yeah. Yeah, we would absolutely love

1:34:57 to know what everyone thinks. There are, as we said, there are

1:34:59 so many things out there. Debunk my theory.

1:35:01 Like tell me how this is not possible?

1:35:04 Or do you think the same thing now after listening to this?

1:35:07 Because I I think that's yeah, love it.

1:35:10 Absolutely love it. Please hit us up on our socials

1:35:14 like comment, do all of the things because it really, really

1:35:18 does go a really long way in helping us get our podcast out

1:35:20 to more and more people. Yeah.

1:35:22 And thank you so much to all of the new listeners we've got like

1:35:24 it is astounding. We are incredible blown away,

1:35:29 absolutely blown away the. We've got a lot of followers on

1:35:32 TikTok and I'm aware that also TikTok may disappear for some,

1:35:37 so follow us over. We're over on Instagram as well.

1:35:40 So if you're fearing that you're not going to follow us on

1:35:41 Instagram or something, I mean, I'm sorry on TikTok, I'll keep

1:35:44 posting to there until I can't or whatever, but move across to

1:35:48 Instagram if you need to. We're we're on there as well.

1:35:50 So I'll post all the same videos on on Instagram.

1:35:52 Excellent. Yeah, sounds great.

1:35:55 Now, next week, we are going to be covering a case that involves

1:35:58 our favorite detective, Ronidal. Oh, yeah.

1:36:01 He in his first ever homicide case.

1:36:04 Yes. So this is this the case of

1:36:08 Maria James. It is.

1:36:09 Oh, my God. It's a tragic, tragic case, but

1:36:13 really it's an Australian case. So we're bringing it back, you

1:36:17 know, a little more local into. Melbourne, yeah.

1:36:20 And yeah, I'm really looking forward to researching this one.

1:36:23 Yeah, this is the one that's I think haunts on to to this day,

1:36:28 that this is like his, one that he hasn't solved.

1:36:31 Yeah. I mean, his, his clear rate's

1:36:34 well over 95% I believe. And this being his first ever

1:36:38 homicide case and it's not solved is, yeah, we've got a lot

1:36:43 to discuss. Next, absolutely we do.

1:36:45 There's a lot of like there's theories, et cetera on that one

1:36:47 too that we can we'll go into. Yeah.

1:36:50 All right. Join us next week for another

1:36:51 episode of Two Crime Besties. And thank you so much for

1:36:53 joining us today. Come rest your voice, please,

1:36:56 Emma. Yes, I'll be right.

1:36:57 I'll be right next week. Stay curious, crime besties.

1:37:00 Bye. This is the four crime festies

1:37:21 so spectacular episode The kids are the 1 rolling show kids rule

1:37:26 grown-ups draw kids are the kids are super cool making grown-ups

1:37:30 look like a fool because this is the four crime besties.

1:37:34 Good job Brody. I'm Oliver and I'm 10 years old

1:37:37 and I'm just brother Lucas and I'm eight years old and we're

1:37:41 kids of true crime bestie Emma. I'm.

1:37:45 I'm Mason. I'm nine years old and I like

1:37:47 sombre Rose. I'm.

1:37:49 As you can see, it's very clear. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:37:53 I'm Brody. I love basketball.

1:37:55 I love Steph Curry. And together we are Meg for the

1:37:59 two crime besties. Yeah.

1:38:01 Sick. So.

1:38:02 So he's seven years old. Yeah.

1:38:04 Yeah. How dare you forget Brody.

1:38:06 Wait. And will we be?

1:38:07 We will be exploring the crime of a serial killer.

1:38:12 Also, that is spelled with a C, not an S Yes, yes, yeah, that's

1:38:18 nutrigrade. Yeah, that nutrigrain.

1:38:21 Very concerning. Also, the culprit is actually

1:38:25 not known yet. It is a very tough mystery.