Episode 29 - Robert Durst

0:15 Welcome back to Crime Besties to episode 29 of the podcast. How are you going today, Meg? Oh. You know, getting there. Yeah. Yeah, we're here. I'm here. I've arrived. Yes, I think that's that's a positive. We're doing very, very well. Yeah, I was saying to you this morning I, well, yesterday I actually threw my neck out turning the toaster on. Yeah, so I've. I've got shut up don't 40. Me to get turning. Turning 40 this year. Yeah, turning the toaster on. How bloody ridiculous. But I'm, I've, I've got the drugs on board and the nice, you know, guarded movements.

0:54 But she'll be right. We'll get through. Luckily we're just podcasting and sitting down and not doing much else. It's the worst. I mean, I could list a million of them have done in in the recent recent years. Getting out of bed and Oh yeah, pulling a hemi, washing my hair, pulling muscle in my shoulder. Seriously. Yeah, it's it's great fun getting older, isn't it? Isn't it? It sucks. I mean, The thing is you go to the gym regularly, you know, you could do some serious injuries at the gym, Yeah, but you know, it was.

1:21 Turning on the toes. The toaster. Yeah, you know, seriously. Anyway, what's been happening with you lately? Where have you been? What have you been doing? What have we been doing? The weather's getting really good. I'm been out in the garden. It's driving me nuts. My with the weather we've got at the moment, literally, I literally turn my back and the weeds are back. Like, no, it's driving me mental. So I feel like I'm out there all the time at the moment trying to keep on that. Yeah. I think I need to get someone in just to.

1:45 I'm so over my garden. Yeah, yeah. Just give it a good once over. Yeah, yeah, just get like I'm in for paying someone else to do shit. Like that, you know, as I get older, the more I'm like, yeah, let's just throw money at that situation because AI don't have the time, the energy or the patience to actually deal with it. Yeah. I'd rather work an extra day, pay for someone to do it than do it myself. Yeah. And. I like, I go out there and let my kids like one's really helpful. The other one just creates arguments, you know, and complaints about every bit of it.

2:19 So. Oh. Only had me so that I could do jobs. Yes. Do you remember saying that to your parents Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. That you only had you so you could empty the dishwasher of all the dishes that you've created. Take it. Fairly. Yeah, that's yeah. All your rubbish in. It oh man, like trying to get them to do the chores stuff is just a nightmare, isn't it? Something it's. Such a nightmare. I love it when, like, you know, you've done all the jobs in the night. You've picked up your groceries that you ordered.

2:46 You can spend the time doing that. You've then come home and unpacked and then cook dinner and vacuum some floor, done all these jobs. And then you turn to one of them and say, do you mind unpacking the dishwasher? They're like, Oh my God, I do everything. What? Do I have to do do everything around here? Oh. I'm. Like it's actually your job, that's what you get your pocket money for. Yeah, yeah, you agreed to this, remember I? Actually had pocket, the whole pocket money thing is motivating for my kids because I'm like, oh, that's fine, I'll just stop your pocket money because we've got a like an app that we use to give them their pocket money.

3:14 Yeah, so and you can do that, you can pause it for a week or whatever or give them less. Yeah. So that is motivating. But yeah, what's more motivating is if I say, all right, well then the other child can do it and I'll pay them your pocket money. Yes, I use that all the time. Yeah, yeah. Whenever they're bugging me on something, I'm like, the next time I hear that or next time that happens, your pocket money will be going to the other one for the week. And it's like, Oh, no, no. That is the worst because not only do they they get like double the amount of money then that's the other one gets.

3:44 Yeah. No, that is definitely motivating for sure. Yeah. Yeah, that's. It love it oh the power sometimes is great it's. Great. Yeah, but yet we're still the little, you know, minions for them running around and doing all the other jobs. Other taxi drivers, etcetera. Yeah, for sure. It's really gonna get worse. I think it will get worse. A friend of mine has an older, an older daughter and she was like running around the last week or the week before. She'd been to a couple of parties, was picking her up late at night.

4:12 Yeah. Oh, my God. You know, yeah, the responsibility shift, that's for sure. Oh. It does. It does. I don't. Know how I'm gonna stay awake late enough to pick my kids up from parties? That might have to be Peter's job. Yeah, you're not, not a laid out and not out at all. No. Whereas I'll be one. Yeah, maybe you do the runner, I'll do them off. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You can pick them up. I'll do the 1:00 AM pick up. That's not an issue. It's just then don't wake me up in the morning. I think that's fine.

4:36 I'll come. No, well, they won't wake up in the. Morning. No, that's I'm looking forward to that. Yeah, that'll be all right. We can all do our teenager sleep insurance, yeah. Catch up on everything that's been missed. No. Way knowing then they'll have somebody sport they need to be out at 8:00 AM. I think if they get older, don't the sports get a bit later? I hope so. They. Better. They better. Yeah, I've got a few shout outs for today because we have had a lot of engagement on our social media and some of this stuff was from last year.

5:02 But we've just got a few names of people we'd like to shout out. So we've got Chantelle Squires, Samantha Hart, Naomi Eloise, Alicia Marie, just into Henrickson and Carol. So just Carol. So thank you to every for to everybody for counting and and sharing our posts and sharing out our podcast to friends and family because. Positive feedback too, like I mean, we're happy to take on negative feedback too, it just hasn't been any. Only from my husband. Yeah, it's true. He always has notes at the end of every episode, all constructive, so that's OK.

5:42 Yeah, we're happy to take that on. Well, we need producer Pete. It's all good. Yeah, thanks, Pete. He's like, he actually said to me the other day, he's like, you know, you never, you've never given me a shout out. I'm like, I'm sure we have. We said thanks to him. We're not like, yeah. Yeah, that's all you get, mate. Thanks. Thanks, Peter. Yeah. All right. What are we covering today? This is a big one. It is a huge one this week. So I we've already discussed this a little bit this morning of like there is so much to this that we we won't go deep dive probably into much of this because we we'll just say we don't want to do two parties and things like that.

6:15 And this could most certainly be a two-part. Well, you know, it could be a series this particular guy. So, but we will cover it broadly I guess that's. Exactly right. We're doing sort of a broad strokes take on Robert Durst, the Jinx today. If you want to know any further in depth information, there is so, so, so, so, so, so, so much out there. Well, actually what we were discussing is for this particular case when we were researching it, there's a lot of depth in what you can find. There's not a lot of breadth, as in there's not a huge number of podcasts or no even like YouTube clips and that kind of thing, or YouTube shows about Robert Durst.

6:56 Yeah, there's the Jinx. Which is. Fabulous, which is AI mean that it is so, so informative yeah but for those of you who don't have many multiples of hours to sit there and watch two seasons yeah of this. And also like I found so when we'd I'd watched season 1 before we decided to do this case, I hadn't watched season 2 yet yeah. So when we decided to cover this, I watched season 2 and then I went back and watched season 1 again right. And which I only just finished last night and even doing that, I'd forgotten so much stuff because and I'm I'm assuming if I watched season 2 again, I'd pick up on things that I'd missed along the way because there's just so many details and it all fits in and locks in together.

7:43 So please forgive us if there's something that we don't cover, because it'll just be due to the fact that we don't have the time to literally cover every single thing in this case. This guy's LED a life like. He's LED alive. All right. So Robert Ellen Durst was born in Scarsdale, NY on the 12th of April in 1943. He's the eldest of four children to Seymour and Bernice Durst. So there's Robert as the oldest, and then he's got a brother, Douglas, a sister named Wendy and a younger brother named Thomas.

8:17 His mum and dad were married in 1940, and then he was born in 1943. I think his dad was something like 11 or 12 years older than his mum, right? So there was a bit of an age, you know, a bit of an age difference there. Yeah. But I mean, do we get into his mum from the get? Go let's let's start there because I think it starts a lot of this to be. Honest, I think I do too. Yeah. So his mum was, look, I think they grew up, the kids grew up in quite an emotionally vacant family. Yeah, they were incredibly wealthy.

8:53 So the Durst family own a real estate empire known as the Durst Organization. They have significant holdings in New York City. So they own a lot of property in New York City. Top five, you know, in New York in terms of property, you know, out there with Trump, that sort of stuff. Yeah. Oh, that's the circle that they were in. Yeah. So the company. Still to this? Day, yeah, still to this day, yeah, the company is worth about $8 billion, B billion not so they are not short of a penny. And they certainly grew up in a very affluent area, like in an affluent suburb.

9:27 They were raised by nannies essentially. There wasn't a lot of involvement from their parents and it doesn't sound like they were a very close knit family by any stretch of the imagination.

9:41 When Robert was seven years of age, his mother passed away, so she was aged 32 at the time. The reports at the time in the media were that she fell off the roof of their house, and people sort of accepted that as fact. Well, also knowing that she actually died by suicide. So she suffered from mental illness. And it sounds incredibly tragic, but she has obviously gotten to a point where she felt like this was the only way out. Did you find much about the relationship between Seymour and Beneath? Like did you see like what their relationship find anything about what their relationship was like?

10:27 Not really. And because the bits that I did find were from Seymour or from Robert, exactly that I, I just don't trust in the information because then you see other spots, other places where that contrary contradicts that and I don't know who to believe. There was a neighbor who made a statement at the time saying that there wasn't a lot of affection in the marriage. So I think if you read into that, maybe like it doesn't sound like it was a very happy home or anything like that. I mean, Robert talked a lot about the fact that and he he sort of talks about this relationship he had with his mother, which was so beautiful and so loving.

11:05 But I from other perspectives, that's not the case. And not that she was, you know, harsh or anything, but just that there wasn't much of a relationship. She was suffering from mental, Yeah, like suffering mental ill health. She probably didn't have a lot of capacity to mother be that. Yeah. And then Seymour was a workaholic. Yeah. Like completely invested in business and wasn't really present as a father at. All. So after Bernice passed away, they were literally the kids were literally raised by nannies.

11:38 Robert's account of that night is that he saw his mum fall or jump off the roof. Yeah. Douglas, the second eldest brother, claims that they would that didn't actually happen at all and that they were at a neighbor's house that night. And because their mother's behavior was escalating, they'd sort of been removed from the home, right? And that none of the and all four of the children were at this neighbour's house and they were all together and none of them witnessed it. So this is just. His entire life, Robert Durst swears, swears that he his father put him in a in view of his mother and made him and made him watch this happen.

12:20 Yeah. So one thing that we need to keep in mind, I think as we go throughout this is Robert Durst is a pathological. Liar. Yeah, well, there's a lot of things, he's a lot of things and what I couldn't work out was OK, so seven years old age, obviously his mother passing away, however that occur that's going to impact someone 100%. What I was trying to find was what his behaviour was like prior and then after what there was it because there was difference is there was differences but you really can't find I. Couldn't find anything.

12:50 I thought the same thing. I'm like, was there a significant change at that time for him? But. The only stuff I could find was that from the siblings, there was comments around that the sibling rivalry, particularly between Douglas and Robert was there from literally birth of Douglas. You know, this it was basically always talked about that that rivalry was from from get go. OK. And so from the the age of 10, Robert was taken to and Douglas as well, both of them were taken to a psychologist because it was that bad.

13:22 Like the the situation, their relationship between them was not good and it was physical violence. It was not not great. Robert was also running away a lot, doing lots of other behaviours. So there was a lot going on for him that they took both of them along to a psychologist. And at that time it was discussed around the fact that Robert was showing signs of schizophrenia and psychopath. So that's interesting that at the age of 10, those things were red flagged around his, his behaviour, his personality, those sorts of things.

13:54 But that would have been potentially trauma. Yes, and that's what I couldn't work out, was like if those behaviours were already there prior to or not. Whether this significant trauma in his life is like. Is the triggered it or is triggered or not? I'm not sure. But either way, at the age of 10, that stuff was being spoken about as to what he was presenting as. And then what I find interesting of that, then continuing on with this family, there's never any heat like to the point where they were saying he probably should have been institutionalized, which is what they would do in that era.

14:25 Not not so much what we would do these days, but definitely intervention of sorts, you know, But there was talk about he should have been institutionalized at that point, which what he was not.

14:36 Well, yeah, I mean, imagine what I mean. I guess we don't know. You don't know what would have happened if that had of taken place. But maybe not all of the things, maybe not everything came to be. Yeah. Yeah. In the 1960s, late 1960s into the early 70s, he attended Lehigh University and then went on to UCLA, Berkeley, so the University of California, Berkeley. He was studying economics at the time. And so I've heard him described by Piers in his university studies is being quite intelligent but really weird.

15:14 So he didn't assimilate into sort of the, you know, the population or he was just always a bit of a bit of an outcast, unusual, odd. And, you know, people knew him because he was odd. Like he was noted. Like it was that notable. Yeah. I mean, he's, yeah, he he is a really odd dude. Really, really odd dude. So he when he was at UCLA, is that when he decided to study a doctorate and then he, like, dropped out right before he finished it? Yeah. So what was that about? Yeah, I think, I don't know because he he wasn't really interested in anything.

15:54 No. So he was like going through the motions. I mean, he's moved from from New York, yeah, over to California, escaping maybe some of that family stuff or like, what do you think? I. Think underlying it all in terms of what he was going to university for was at the end of the day, the way the family was structured was that the company would be run by the eldest son. That was kind of this inferred inevitability that that's what was going to occur. So I think, you know, entitlement stepped in a little bit in terms of like, yeah, I'm at university, but I'm a billion dollar company coming my way.

16:31 Like I'll just be running that. But I think he never wanted it. But he didn't want it. But he wanted it like as in it was just, it was just he we should have just got it. Yeah. It wasn't about warning. It wasn't the fact that, like his dad, as you say, it was a workaholic. He lived for that company. I mean, it's, I find that interesting about people like, you know, billionaires in that people want to become rich because they can want to live a lifestyle. But then there's people who want to become rich for the fact of being rich.

16:55 And they just want to be rich. Notoriety. Like, yeah. And having, that's where I, that's where I think he fitted into that category of like, you know, his dad clearly was a workaholic and wanted this business to operate and function and keep making money, you know, and he had skills to do that. Whereas, I don't know, maybe Robert just sort of thought, you know, yeah, I'll just step into that. Like I'll just do that. But I don't have to work in hard to be, you know, work hard to do that because I'll have a lifestyle.

17:20 I don't know, like unlimited. Access Unlimited access to money, yeah. I there was a quote from Robert about his time at university and he was basically saying that he was just there to smoke pot. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I'm gonna enroll myself in a really expensive college degree, which obviously that wouldn't have been a factor. The money wouldn't have been a. This is it. And like people. Take out these hundreds of thousands of dollars of student loans in the US to attend university, Yeah, that wouldn't have been a factor for him.

17:49 So he's just gone there. That's what you do. You leave school, you go to university. Yeah, like money wasn't a an issue. Issue. No. I'll do what I wish. I'll do what I please. Because the fact that he chose an economics degree shows that he obviously. I was thinking somewhere along. The lines. Of I guess I need to know that stuff for later on when I but then when I run this business. Dropping out of the doctor at 2 like a few months before he was due to complete and he just didn't finish. Yeah, because, like, who cares?

18:16 I'm just, I am just who I am. And yeah. Yeah, yeah. All interest. At UCLA, he met a woman by the name of Kathy McCormick. She was a few years younger than him, wasn't she? Yeah, there was a little bit of an age gap. Not as big as his parents obviously, but yeah. Yeah, a little bit younger age gap. Yeah. So was this around his 30th birthday? So this is where the timeline for me gets a bit weird. So. So he's that. So he's met her. 1971 he meets her. Yeah, and they get married in 1973. Yeah. So he's, this is around the time that he's dropping out of UCLA, right?

18:52 Yeah. When they get married. Yes, yes. So at that time, she's working as a dental hygienist. Yeah, when he meets her, she is. Yep, Yep, Yep. And it was. All very quick going because he was actually living in Vermont still already. Yeah, at that stage. So. Yeah. Right. So he'd been living there for about a year, I think it was 1970. He moved to Vermont. He took over a business that was already operating. That's not it. I think people often think that he started this business. He didn't. He just. He bought a business and renamed it to All Good Things.

19:20 It was a health food store in in Vermont. So it was operating and operating well. Like it wasn't like he had this genius idea and went in there and did this so. But still, yeah, different lifestyle though, to living in the city where his dad was running the Durst family organization and he. Was just like operating a store like a retail business. It's weird. No. Why not a people person? Not at all, but also what what would motivate you? It's not like he needed money. No, no. But he, I think he just didn't wanna be in the city.

19:51 Yeah, OK, but. And it gave him something to do every day, like to show up there because he used to go every day. Yeah. It's not like he had someone else running, running it until Kathy came along. Until. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then once Kathy came along, she quit her job as the. Yeah. Well, on their second date, he asked her to move to Vermont, move in with him and run the store. And yeah, so on the second date, that's. That's pretty fucking. Quick. It's very quick. She was an absolutely stunning young woman.

20:22 And impressive. So intelligent. So, you know, she just was a lot. She was a lot up a room kind of person. Like, really? Energetic, beautiful hair. Yeah. And you can see videos of her online if you want to go and have a look. And she's, she's just, I know people say this about the dead all the time, but this is true of her. She was vibrant like she was. You could tell she had the light like light in her eyes. People enjoyed her company. Yeah, and like, she just, she looked bronzed and healthy and she had a glow about her and she just was loving life.

20:53 And as you said, she was incredibly intelligent. She could have had her pick of any man. I would. Imagine. Yeah, yeah, definitely. And she's. Chosen. Well, I, I sort of, I don't know that she chose. I think he chose, Yeah, personally, I think you're right. There's a personality type. And he went. I'll take that. Yeah. And he made sure that that's what like, you know, because he had a lot of ways around about him that a lot of people say very charismatic. Someone, I heard someone describe him as like the three C's.

21:24 It was like charming, charming and oh, far out. What was the? 3rd Criminal. Didn't say coercive, but it wasn't coercive. I'll think. I'll try and think of it. While we're right. Yeah. And I'm like, yeah, bloody hell yes. He's charisma. Yeah, there's that. Certainly love bomb too, that's for sure. I think he, you know, gave her everything that and. She look she came from a very close knit family, but they certainly were not well off. No, no, a lovely family. Like really, really lovely family. Yeah, yeah.

21:54 Oh, gosh. Awful. But yeah, so they were, they moved in together. We're living together from like early 1972, I think it was. It was late 71 that they met. By 72 they were living together and then married in 1973. Very interestingly, just before they got married, there was a fairly intense conversation that Robert didn't want to have children. That was fairly upsetting for Kathy, but she did agree that, you know, like their lifestyle, it was fabulous, you know, and that they could do a lot of things.

22:25 And I think, I don't know, she thought that maybe maybe he'd eventually change his mind to like a mature and I don't. Know she.

22:34 I don't. I don't know. He says that he didn't want to have children because he didn't want anyone to turn out like him. Which he's he's made good. Yeah, absolutely. But he. So he recognizes that there's something in himself that's not quite right. Yeah, unfortunately, she did fall pregnant at one point. And he. Oh, this just breaks me. But he forced her to have an abortion. And friends say that that changed her. Yeah. Like, that changed her to her core. Now I. Think it showed his true colours came out then.

23:08 Absolutely. Because you think, OK, you would. Do you know if you've agreed as a couple not to have a child? OK, that's one thing. But it's not even like when she fell pregnant. Takes two people to to make a baby. Yeah, when she fell pregnant, it wasn't even like there was a discussion or it was just Bob was like, Nope, you've got to get an abortion. And I mean, he was a nasty prick sometimes. Like you can see the. Yeah, it was. AI don't think, and she was such a sweet and probably quite passive person, Yeah, but she probably couldn't stand up to him.

23:46 Oh, no. Well, have you watched All Good Things, the movie The Andrew Jackie? Yeah, yeah. So and so in that movie, there's a scene where it's. Her dance plays her. Yeah. So there's a party that they're celebrating Kathy that she's going in the movie. I think it's, I can't remember the name Catherine. I think, I don't know whatever they named her in the movie, but yeah, so the party's about her going off to do her PhD And so. But in the movie, they depict Robert Durst as, you know, cracking it. He wants to leave the party and he grabs her like by the hair and pulls her out of the party.

24:19 Now, that scene originated. It was from the parents and the family and everyone. They witnessed that occurring. Now, Fast forward many, many years where Robert Durst is sitting down with Andrew directly, the director of that movie. And they did, like, a director's cut kind of thing where Robert Durst sat there and they commentated on the movie. And Andrew Durecki is quoted as saying, you know, that he was feeling very uncomfortable about getting to that scene. As to how he would react to that. I mean, you would expect someone to say, well, that's not how that happened.

24:47 You know, that's the family's perspective, but that's not actually how that happened. And, you know, explain it away. And they got to that scene and watched it. And he turned to Andrew Durecki and kind of went, oh, well, some people say I grabbed her by the hair. Some people say I pulled a chunk of her hair out. Either way, that's what happened. Like, it's so he was, he was clearly violent with her, you know, in public. But like, back to that. OK, so that's what he's doing in front of her family?

25:13 Yeah, No less. Yeah. Imagine what was happening behind. Exactly. Yeah, that's what I think Andrew directly even at that in that moment kind of went, oh, whoa. Like he's not denying that this is the behaviours that he would do, you know, that clearly this is even more than just that one moment that's not just happened on its own. I mean, other people have commented that they saw Kathy with, you know, cuts, bruises, etcetera, looking quite dishevelled at times. She'd attended an Ed at some point, actually at multiple time points during their marriage, more towards the end of them their marriage where she'd attended Ed with like cuts and bruises, confusions on her face, like just she he was obviously abusing her physically and.

26:02 But then also financially and immediately. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you know, he held all the power, if you think about it in that respect. He held the physical power in the relationship. He held the financial power. Yeah. And, you know, it got to the point where Kathy had kind of had enough. Yeah. So she she was basically upfront and that she wanted to leave the marriage. That was not working. Yeah, so she just thought legal. Yeah, she thought legal advice, Yeah. But so in the end, what basically for her was, you know, that she was doing, studying, you know, to be a doctor.

26:32 She was gonna come up, wanted to become a pediatrician. I mean, there's good money in that. She was going to be OK in terms of her career. She needs to finish out obviously doing that. So what she all she really wanted from him was she was asking for of his $65 million basically that he had was $250,000 to walk away from the marriage. Yeah, he wouldn't give that to her. No, which I just think you fucking fucking serious. Like that's the. Point where? So Robert Durst, obviously he had just ongoing legal counsel for whatever.

27:06 And it got to the point where their lawyers were even arguing over like, different pieces of furniture and stuff like that because so it actually, you know, it progressed in terms of the mediation of and division of goods. They were quite far down the path. Although official divorce proceedings hadn't commenced yet. Yeah. He actually at the point of their divorce didn't have that 65,000,000 yet, but he had, he had Open Access though to the family's funds, yes. So he actually potentially had way more than 65,000,000.

27:38 So endless amounts of money he had. He literally, he had almost endless amounts of money and he just did not want to give her a fucking dime. No, she'd been with him for, what, 10 years or so at this point? Three months of finishing, about 3 months of finishing medical school. So she was doing rounds at this time. And, you know, all of her professors and her classmates who were going through medical school with her said she was an incredible doctor. Yeah. Although she hadn't graduated yet, but she was well on her way to becoming one.

28:11 She was empathetic, she was kind, she was compassionate. She was incredibly knowledgeable. And she was sort of like, top of their class. I think she was doing so, so well. Yeah. Yeah. She wasn't just making it. She was really good. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And she was, I guess a mature age student at that time too. So she had some life experience under her belt which would have helped things as well, potentially. Yeah. And I think I did hear one of her classmates say she was kind of a little bit like a like held a bit of a motherly or an older sister.

28:40 Yeah. Kind of a vibe within their group. Yeah. And, you know, was a somebody that that her classmates would go to for advice and that kind of thing. So again, that goes to show the type of person that she that she was. Yeah. On the 31st of January in 1982, Kathy disappeared. Yeah. And she has never been seen again since. She had planned to meet Robert at the. Well, this is OK Let's go from Robert's perspective. Yeah, he says that he dropped her at a train station to. So they were living in Scarsdale at the time, which was a train ride into Manhattan, where she was doing her rounds, doing her final rounds.

29:24 And they had a an apartment in Salem, NY, which was, I think not far from Manhattan. So she was going in to do her rounds. She'd stay at their apartment in Salem and go to the hospital from there. Yeah, Robert says that he dropped her at the train station so she could go to their apartment at Salem and never seen her again. Yeah, basically. Yeah, supposedly there were witnesses who saw her in Salem, in at the apartment building. Supposedly seemed to have changed their stories since. Yes. So the doorman, well originally the doorman said no, I didn't see her.

30:02 Then, conveniently, he said, oh, actually no, I did. And now says he didn't. Now he says he didn't. And the other one, the other witness of seeing her, also not seeing her was a phone call that supposedly Kathy rang her university, Albert Einstein University, where her medical school was to say that she was feeling unwell and would and wouldn't be in that day. Now the the fact of the matter is that medical school is so hard to get into and you work your arse off that the opinion of the professor at the time was that you would be vomiting next to that round that table before you would leave and or not show up for this.

30:43 It's like it is you just don't not rock up. You need to be violently I'll to not turn up whereas she rang in just going I've got a bit of a stomach bug and I'm so I won't be in today. Now he takes at face value that this phone call, a female voice ringing and saying I'm Kathy is Kathy. I think it's been noted since that the terminology that was used. So specifically the person who rang and spoke to the professor. 22 weird things here. Yeah, the first thing was that she rang and spoke to the university, not to the hospital.

31:17 Like the person in charge of the rounds at the hospital, which they said at the time that was a bit weird. Like, you would think she would ring her supervisor at the hospital as opposed to ringing the Dean of medicine at the university, even though they knew she was rounding. So anyway, that was a bit odd. Yeah. The other thing is that the specificity of the what the person said, not one person has agreed that Kathy spoke in that way. Right. So the person said I have. And these. This is verbatim.

31:50 Yeah. Gastrointestinal discomfort. Yeah. And everyone has said Kathy would never have said that. She didn't talk like that. Yeah, right. If she had an upset stomach, she would have said I have enough. Like it would have been more delicate. Not Yeah, I have gastrointestinal discomfort. Yeah. And also and a headache. That was the other thing. Yeah. And they're like more pop up. Fucking Panadol. Yeah. Which is what? Anyone else would have done like literally they would have had, you know, a very high temperature and as I say, vomiting literally violently and still being in there like it's you just didn't not rock up.

32:25 Yeah. That's so, yeah. And that and Kathy had not missed a day since prior to that. Like this. Yeah. So no record of her going. You know, I have a headache. I'm not coming in. It's just not what you did. And then she didn't rock up for the rest of the week. Yeah. And never, never, never saw her again. Never. So, yeah. So basically we've got a story of that she got on a train coming, came into the city and that Robert just never saw her again from the train station, whereas we have question marks as to whether or not she ever got on that train.

32:53 Yeah, yeah. I mean, this is back in, you know, it's in the 80s. We don't have the CCTV we have now. We don't have the phone tracking we have now. There's no like it's really hard to prove anything. Yeah. And also because of the the way that this plays out over the next, what, 40 years, the passage of time doesn't help either when investigating these things. So. No. You know, and we know we can't take on face value what Robert says. And then you're relying on witness testimony that is potentially quite old.

33:30 Yeah. So Robert decided back. So this is back in I think it was like 5 days or so after she. Went took him a fair bit so friends and stuff were saying like where is she? What I haven't seen her like they were all I think they were actually reporting her missing like even to that to that degree going this is so not right. And they've The thing is, they'd also been they all knew that this relationship with Robert was not good and that there was physical violence. So they were all very worried. They'd already been conversations from Kathy saying things like if something happens to me, it's Robert.

34:02 Like they all were very her friends, her family were all very aware. So they were already reporting to police going no where is she, where is she? They were very concerned, but it took him like a week, I think, to report her missing. It was not an immediate thing by any means that he reported her missing. And he fronted up to the police station because he somebody told him he had to report her missing in person. Yeah, he fronted up there and basically said, well, I haven't seen her, but, you know, we haven't been talking much.

34:31 And it's not unusual for her not to call me and for me not to call her. So basically, do with that what you will whenever. But he felt like he had to do something because everyone's at him about it. They're all at me. Yeah, I'll get him off my back. I'll just wander in there and not be helpful to the police. Well, and not be helpful to that his whole family were very unhelpful in respect. I mean, you would think of family with that kind of standing in the community and that, you know, and everything and wealth that to have a family member, which she was, she was still married to him.

35:00 That you would think that they'd be everyone on the lookout wanting to find this woman. Like, you know, every every police officer is being paid to be to. Absolutely. But they had so much influence. Actually went the other way. Yeah. The degree of like. So their house in Scarsdale was never searched. Neither was the place in Salem. I don't believe, no. Oh no, the place in Salem was eventually searched and they. Actually eventually searched, but like, sorry, years of years down the track, yeah. Friends went to the apartment in Salem, Yes, and found that Kathy's possessions had been thrown down.

35:34 No, sorry, sorry. No, no, no, no. It was the Superintendent of the building. He was going, not going through the trash, but he was like, emptying or taking bins out or something. And he noticed all of these personal items, like in the rubbish chute bins. And yeah, and it was all turned out. It was all Kathy's possessions, like all of them. So this was kind of there was a little bit of a ramp up in the media around this happening. And this is kind of where I guess publicly we meet Susan Berman really in terms of link to Robert Durst, they've been friends for many, many years already.

36:12 They met in university. And so, but he points basically Susan Berman as the official spokesperson for the family in regards to Kathy's disappearance. She announces a $100,000 reward that Robert has personally, personally put up from his own estate. Yeah, that then very quickly got reduced to $15,000. Yeah. What the hell? It's insane. You're a billionaire, Yeah. And your wife has gone missing. Even $100,000, that's pretty inadequate to me. Ridiculous. That's not enough. I mean, we're talking. $15,000 yes.

36:48 How fucking insulting. To reduce it like I just you would increase it when you haven't got news. Like he reduced it when people started like actually looking for things. He went Oh no, no, no, no shit, I don't. Know we don't want. This, we don't want anyone finding anything. I mean, yeah, I mean, red flags all over the show. So just to Susan Berman, just who she was basically, she was the daughter of a of a known gangster who owned part owned a casino in Las Vegas and was an author and she. Was an author not a very good or successful author?

37:24 Yeah, yeah. So she wrote a book about being raised by, you know, a gangster mobster. Yeah. Who her dad did pass away and so did her mum. So Robert Dess and her had bonded over that fact of like that they both had lost their mums at quite young ages and that they're, well, her dad and his dad were very interesting people. Yeah. But then didn't really weren't really parts of their lives in different ways. And she lost her dad as well, although she loved her dad and like to the to odd degree, almost like she was.

37:53 I think they're proud of the fact that he was a mobster. And yeah. Yeah, some of the interviews where she talks about him, it's, it's a bit, it's a bit off actually, really. Odd, isn't it? Yeah. She was an orphan by the time she was 12. So then I sort of think as well, the trauma that she has suffered at such a critical age. Yeah. Like, obviously that's further informed her life and how that kind of went along. But so her dad would have been very, very well off not being, I think it was a 50% owner in a casino.

38:23 Yeah. But then did she never get any of that money because she was certainly not well off? Probably like was it probably a crime like so I dare say it probably wasn't any money as much as he the. Casinos are legit? Or was that an illegitimate casino? Dare say. There was a bit of money being laundered towards. Yeah. I don't know. How do you separate the two? Yeah, they call. Yeah. I don't know. I'm not sure where that all. Yeah, it's really hard to know. But she's certainly. Yeah. No, she certainly struggled.

38:50 And I think, you know, obviously Robert, Robert helped her out financially. There's no question about that. I mean, that's fairly public that she's that, you know, regularly he gave her money. But yeah, so she wasn't living a very high life or anything. Their relationship is described as being like best friends and I there's from. I mean, I don't think they had a sexual relationship. I think I genuinely think it was almost like a brotherly sister. Well. Even at this point when my thing, when Kathy went missing, he was actually dating Mia Farrow's sister.

39:26 Yes, Yeah, yeah. Like, yeah. And like, didn't absolutely in love with her. Yeah, yeah, Yeah. So they were so close that Robert Durst actually walked Susan Berman down the aisle when she got married. They were. Yeah. It just goes to show they were they were very involved in one another's lives. But it was, it was a, it was a platonic friendship. Yeah, but that lasted. Yeah. And very loyal friendship, I dare say. Yes, Yes.

39:56 She, as you said, she got money from him. She borrowed money that was never paid back. And yeah, and it was never a contentious issue within their friendship, I don't think like. Not well, I mean this stupid amount of money that he had like to you know, throw 50 to 50 grand to someone issue for. Kathy for him and Kathy, but it wasn't an issue for him and Susan. No, but yeah, again, it's a very different relationship. Isn't it very? Yeah. It's what he's getting out of that and what she's getting out of that and the.

40:21 Control of it all to he didn't need to control. No, he didn't need, he didn't need to control Susan because she was loyal to the NTH degree and that was what her lifestyle growing up, you know, that's what her parents relationship was. He picked someone very much who was going to stick by him. I mean, that's how well she lived. She was. Vulnerable, and he found security and solace in the friendship with Robert Durst. The money couldn't have heard either. Oh God, no, no, I mean, I'm sure that talked for, you know, that was.

40:54 I can't. I can't imagine he would have had any relationships with anyone if he wasn't. If he wasn't healthy rich, well that or if he wasn't benefiting from it in some way, whether that be, you know, that, that I don't know, that he just feeds off people in terms of that, doesn't he? He's the weirdest little dude. Oh God, yeah, yeah, I'm weird. I I have like watching like the jinx. It cracks me up some of those the the tapes and stuff. They're recorded, particularly in the second series where he's older again.

41:24 And it was funny. I was watching that with and my younger, my oldest came downstairs, you know, and like, you know, oh God, you know, have to do that quite often with them pause. Oh my God, don't let them watch these sorts of things that I watch. And but as I went to hit pause, it was him answering one of the calls with Bob. He absolutely lost. And I had to rewind and replay just that section from over everything because he was absolutely wetting himself going who is this guy? I know so. Last night I was telling Peter about this and I said, I'm like this just it's been replaying in my head all night where he rings like he rings his own voicemail service, which we will get to in a minute because that is actually a pivotal point in the in the story.

42:02 But he rings his own for answering service. And it's like you have reached the mailbox of Bob.

42:11 It's so funny. And I love that because there's these twins in that second one that they are like gold. Yeah. And so they're, they do all like the the shit kicker job basically for the for the prosecution baby lawyer. I love it. Like, oh God, I hope they never change these twins. And they just like when we needed a little bit of a, you know, pick me up on, like to try and get through some hard nights, we'd sit through and listen to the tapes because they just love listening to Bob's conversations and stuff.

42:36 And they're like Bob. Bob, he's a bloody widow. But he's very weird. Very, very, very strange, dude. Very, very strange. So at the moment, we'll just keep moving through the timeline because we'll come back to Susan Berman. Oh, we will absolutely come back to. Susan So at this point, obviously Kathy's missing. No one's looking for her. It's been squashed in the media really by by the the Durst family, the Mccormick's, Kathy's family are desperate to try and find her and keep trying and keep trying.

43:02 But no, no one is helping. In 1988, Bob meets a person by the name of Deborah Lee Sheraton, who eventually becomes his second wife. She's a very interesting. Character. So if you guys want to know more about her and her just general demeanor, go and watch the deposition tapes that she has done, like when this goes to trial or prior to this going to trial. She's a very, very interesting woman. Oh yeah, she ran her own. She was like one of the she started her own female only Realty company in New York, did very well for herself for that.

43:40 It was a market that was needed at the time. She really got onto it in the 80s where like, you know, girl boss was really sort of kicking off and, you know, so you go to an all female Realty company and have, you know, that that feminine touch to buy your Realty. Yeah. So she but apparently she was a total piece of shit and she was asshole. Yeah. So people who worked for her, like they ended up suing her and stuff because she was just all she was, you know, yeah, taking money off people that she shouldn't have all sorts of things.

44:08 So she's much of a piece of shit, I think, as Robert Guest, but oddly with their very odd relationship. So they got married. And even in her deposition, she talks about the way that they got married. Was they got married because he asked her. Yeah. I've, I've literally written down that quote. He the the prosecutor says to her, why did you marry Mr. Durst? And she goes like literally breathe into them because he asked like it was just asking. Yeah, just no. Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. If just some rando comes up and says, do you want to marry?

44:40 Yeah, sure. Yeah, but this marriage of convenience, absolutely, very much so because I think it was within a day or so of their marriage. So literally they've gone to, they haven't gone had a wedding. There's not a wedding. They got married as in. Well, a rabbi married them. Yeah, in a well at a place designated by the rabbi. Like it's just like a not even a hotel room. It was like an office. Building an office or some sort like they weren't there wasn't a wedding. There was a there was the witnesses they needed.

45:11 There was that's all that was there Yeah. And she? Was wearing like a yellow suit. Like it's not. There was nothing wedding either. It wasn't, it wasn't a marriage for love, that is for sure. And I think, and she will, she says that. Yeah, out outright. Yeah. They don't even kiss when they get married. Have you seen the video? No, because at the end of the day they got married. Because then spousal privilege privilege applies because they knew each new stuff about each other that then they couldn't be asked about in court.

45:37 Very interestingly, they got married on the 11th of December in 2000. And what happened on the 12th of December 2000? What? So they got married literally a day before she. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She. So they got married the day before. Yes, sorry. She was then going to be, what's the word deposed. Yeah, yeah, that's sorry. Yes, yes. So oh, that timing's quite curious, isn't it? But the thing that applied then was the fact that anything that she knew prior to them actually getting married was admissible.

46:15 Yes. Anything after that, which was like a day, a day or two, I don't know if it was exactly the 12th, but it was very close to when they got married.

46:26 Anything post that? OK, Yes, spousal, spousal privilege applies. Yeah. Right. Yes, that's correct. Yeah. So OK, what was the point in that then? I don't know, like it's so bizarre. Like they, well, they know. They know what they were doing. They knew what they were doing legally. Yeah, 100%. She was basically an adverse witness, so she, on advice of counsel, didn't answer a lot of questions. Any questions she did answer, she forgot a lot of things. Yeah, she didn't answer questions wholly. So she would give part information.

47:10 She threw things off in certain in the way she answered certain things. It contradicted all the testimony that either she had already given or that Robert or Bob had already given. Yeah, she called him Bobby. Which, yuck. So did Susan Berman. I know so because going back to her slightly at this time, this is when basically the they started opening up Kathy's case again, like in 1999. And So what Bobby knew was that someone was going to spill the beans. There was like talk that the cops were going to beat with someone and talk with them who was going to give some really strong evidence.

47:50 And Robert just knew that was Susan Berman. So that's. That's just playing background. Yeah. OK. So this is bringing that back down to background to Susan Berman. Right. So Susan Berman was found dead in her home in Benedict Canyon in LA in December of 2000, right? This happened, I think it was five days after the LA County PD have come out and said that they are sorry. The New York City PD Sorry Sorry came out and said they are going to reinvestigate the death or suspected death of Kathy McCormick Durst.

48:38 Yeah. The only person who Bob could think of that they, because I think they openly said in that press conference, we have witnesses who are now willing to come forward. Yeah. The only thing that he's thinking is, Oh my God, Susan Berman's the only one who knows anything about it because she's fucking the one who rang the Dean of Medicine at bloody Albert Einstein University. She knows about him, she knows everything about him and to this point has been loyal. Yeah, she's been loyal, but he's also like.

49:09 Been police given her money. Yeah, she's, he's paid her like. Well, even. Just of money. At the SO in August of 2000, he paid her two checks worth 25 grand. But she also he also had given her a check for $300,000. Yeah, 15 years before, yes. Yeah. But so still, though, he's still paying her money right up, right up to this point. So, you know, this is so December 11, he's got married to this, you know, Sheridan, she he's on 20. On December 19, he flies to San Francisco, so California, but San Francisco.

49:40 Susan Berman lives in LA, so yeah, long distance between and this is where it kind of gets. It's a drivable. Disk it's a totally drivable just done it just just. Real quick, Yeah. He turned. He Sorry. He rocks up to the airport on that day. Yeah. 10:00 PM at night. Yeah. Books a red eye flight and flies. He has a few things to note here. He's never flown red eye before and he's been quoted as saying I never fly red eye. He always plans his travel in advance. He's got a travel person who works, I guess for him who organizes all that for him.

50:14 He literally rocked up at the airport and bought the ticket at the time. Yeah, which he just doesn't. In his own name, Buckwit, Right? So we keep. Going Yeah. So yeah, basically. So on December 23rd though, well actually December 24th, Susan Berman's body is found in her house in LA in Beverly Hills. A note at that time is also sent to the Police Department. Addressed to addressed to the Beverly Hills Police Department with one word of cadaver. Cadaver. Yeah, yeah. It just and the address of the address Susan Berman's house, so it's.

50:54 Yeah. So basically the the envelope that he's posted, so he #1 he has posted this envelope. It has a stamp on it, and the stamp is interesting, but all that it is addressed to is Beverly Beverley. That's not actually how you spell Beverly. There is no E in it at the end. Beverly Hills police. Yeah. They received this letter. I think it takes a day, like it's postmarked a day later when they receive it. Yeah. They open up the letter and all it says is what is it 15 something Benedict Canyon Rd. or Benedict Canyon something cadaver.

51:36 So the police then go fuck, we need to go to this address and see what's going on. At least investigate it. It's weird they arrive there, but also in the interim Susan Berman's neighbour suspects something's going on because she finds her dogs in the in the and apparently that is a quite a busy Rd. Yeah. Right. And she finds the dogs in, like, on the street and thinks, oh, that's really bloody weird. And she goes to take the dogs back inside and she notices that Susan's back door is open. She never left her door open.

52:09 Yeah, but the the neighbour didn't know her well enough to, like, go inside or anything like that. So she's taking the dogs in and then the next day she's like, I still haven't seen Susan. That's really weird. And I think she reported it to the police. She's already reported it too, yeah. So they had a couple of I don't even know if those two pieces of information ended up coming together, but they've acted on that anyway and gone and found her deceased in her. I think she was in her kitchen. I. Think her bedroom was where the body was?

52:37 Yeah, but she but it was very much an execution ish style. It was very it was just one gunshot to the head. Point blank range back of her head. So what they what's inferred by that, by the prosecution once this eventually all comes out, is that she was comfortable with the person. Yeah, there's no. Executed her because she's turned her back to them. Yeah, if if she was feeling threatened there is no way she would have turned and walked no back to the person. And there was no forced entry. It was, yeah, she'd let this person in potentially.

53:08 Or. Yeah. Or they arrived before her, like, because Robert did have a key. Yeah. Yes, he was paying the rent on that house, I think. Yeah. So basically so that's that's occurred and this sort of ramps up quite quickly with because I mean he's linked to her very much so anyway, but to escape any media attention in April of the following year of 2001, he moves to Galveston, TX where he. God this is so fucking. Weird, he dresses as a woman who is a mute. Well, because he couldn't disguise his voice, he said he couldn't do a woman's voice because he does have quite a deep voice.

53:50 Like he's very, it's very, very hot. Like it's a it's his voice is weird but I can imagine he couldn't make it feminine. No, but anyway, so he doesn't dress as a woman like well either. Like I don't it's I think it's come out later on like everyone knew it wasn't really a woman. Yeah, like it was just. But I think people kind of took it as, OK, maybe he's like exploring dressing as a woman potentially. And I mean, if he is actually mute, I don't know. People aren't approaching you and talking to you.

54:23 Are they really talking to you about it? Which is what he wanted. So he he went by the name of Dorothy Signer. So he's gone to Galveston. He's rented a shit apartment. Oh, it's horrible. For somebody who is so well off, he obviously wanted to be flying under the radar because this apt, I mean, it looked. Have you seen? Photos. Oh yeah. It looks filthy. Oh yuck. It's disgusting and it's not really shit. Part of the. Oh, it's bad. It's. In the ghetto. Oh, yeah, yeah. It's not a nice this area at all.

54:52 He was very much in hiding. Like he's very clearly hiding. Yeah. So yeah. So. And by September 30th on in 2001 a family is fishing in Galveston and discover a dismembered torso floating just off the beach when police go and find pull it out but they also then find other body parts. Washed in plastic. Bags wrapped in plastic bags. It's really horrible. So they find every part of the body except for the head. So all arms and legs and the torso are found in that it the body parts were wrapped in garbage bags, like legit like garbage bags.

55:32 And then there were other items in those bags. In one of the bags they happened to find like a newspaper that had an address on it of where that newspaper had been delivered to. Lo and behold, they go to that address and find that the there was a guy living there by the name of Morris Black. And next door neighbor is this female mute. Dorothy. Sign up So they've then find discover very quickly discover that that's Robert Durst this person. They said this person was due to pick up some glasses at A at somewhere.

56:05 So they were like, well, if this person rocks up, we'll come down and meet them. So they got the, the optometrist to send them a bit of a message if if this person did rock up to actually pick their glasses up and lo and behold, probably test. Well, Dorothy turns off to collect the glasses and so they get onto the phone and contact the police and down they come and have a chat to discover that it's Robert Durst that is wanted, wanted, wanted to be spoken to on a number of things. So God. So then they pull it by pulling me in the Fred chat and everything.

56:38 And I love that they've, they basically fairly quickly, you know, arrest him for this. So they, they put up a $250,000 bond, which at this time they don't actually realize who Robert Durst is. I mean, New York to Galveston in Texas, they don't know who this is. Like they don't put that together yet. They just know that this is a person. And they're looking okay. They're looking at where he's living, and they're like, yeah, he lives in an absolute dive. Yeah, his clothes were really gross and grotty.

57:05 And he's dressing as a woman. And he was dressing as a woman, like things are all a bit. It's a bit. Strange here, but they're like, you've posted bail after you have 20 thousand $250,000 and he goes not on me and they're like fuck whatever. He posts the bail, of course, because he's got access to endless money and he's amounts money. Actually. What's probably worth noting is now, YEAH, is that in the 90s, Douglas took over the business because obviously Robert was not, yeah, equipped to be able to.

57:36 Which he was so pissed. About He did not like that, even though he didn't really want it. He wanted the money, he wanted the notoriety, and he wanted all of that. So he ended up suing the Durst organization, Yes. And in 2006 they settled for oh, no, sorry. Was that in 2006 or in 2000? In the 90s, I can't remember. I think it was in the 90s, they settled for $65 million. So he did have still an incredibly large amount of. Plenty of money. More than he would ever need. Yeah, his brother actually said at the end of that settlement.

58:10 He's like, I just felt like he was going to kill me. Yeah, no, he, he had done bodyguards. He was, he hired, very scared of him. His younger brother says the same thing. They were very, very wary of him and afraid of him. And yeah, no, they're not afraid to say that. Like, yeah, that don't trust him, no. It's on the. Record I wouldn't either. I think they had very every right to, but still they could have done a whole lot more. Yeah. So anyway, so we've got he's. Gone on the run. He's posted bail and Robert has posted bail and he's gone on the run and.

58:38 Again, gone and got a mask. Oh, that mask is so freaky creepy. So he's he's bought this latex mask, which apparently they are so expensive. I mean, again, money's no issue. Yeah, but it's actually, I mean you look at it and I mean, have you seen the photo of it on the table and it's all collapsed in on itself. It looks really weird. But then when they actually put it on a on a mannequin head, it actually. Looks legit. Very realistic, like it's got real hair. Yeah, he shaved all of his own hair off, including his eyebrows.

59:10 Yeah. And I love it when he talks about this like to Andrew Durecki Wolf. He's going. He goes like, because he's like, why'd you shave your eyebrows and that. And he goes, well, then I would look like me. That would. That's weird to do that. You know he's trying to tell someone. Don't you think that's weird to do that? Yes, we all think you're weird. You're. Really fucking weird. Oh man. So he's actually gone on the run to Pennsylvania, ended up in Pennsylvania. I don't know why, but that's where he's gone.

59:37 And the fucking idiot is arrested at a like a 711 type shop. Yeah, for shop shopping, cigarettes, chewing gum and a chicken sandwich. The $65 million money, the amount of money he has, and that's. He, he even says in one of his depositions, he even says he's like, I don't know why I did that. That was so stupid. This is where I just go. There's a real screw. Something wrong? Yeah. There's something wrong here. Yeah, he wanted to get caught. Like it's like, I think to be honest, I think he did. I think he wanted to get caught.

1:00:10 He was like, why? Because he wants the, he wants all the the people. Around. Him. Yeah, he wanted all this. He's he was, he was loving that court hearing. He was loving all of that. Yeah, I think that was all. I think, yeah, screw loose big time. Massively so. So obviously now he's up for. So they've they've caught him in Pennsylvania, they've figured out who he is, how he ties into the murder of Morris Black. Yeah. So we haven't actually spoken about. Murder to him. Sorry, sorry. He well he is wanted over the murder of Yeah, so his story is that so Morris new stuff.

1:00:51 Yeah, well, according to Robert Durst, they were best friends, neighbors and became best friends. I don't know about that. I don't know about that either, but by all accounts, Morris knew that he wasn't Dorothy. They've. Got, I mean, yeah. Yeah, they got friendly. They'd been friendly enough that they. And there was evidence that Morris had spent time in Durst's apartment. Yes. So there were items with his DNA on them, like drink cans and that kind of thing. So we know they had spent time with one another.

1:01:21 In what capacity, we don't really know. We've obviously only got Robert's side of the story. And Morris Black, we don't know a lot about him. He was the grifter. He was he he doesn't, he didn't have family. He was hiding away too. So he wasn't like someone who had family was missing him or any of that. And like, it's sad. So Bob says that he came over black found a gun in was it in his chest of. Drawers or. Something or in the in the bathroom drawers, I think it was, or something like that. And then there was a struggle over the gun.

1:01:57 The gun went off and oh, lo and behold, he was shot. Yeah, in his head. Accidentally. Accidentally, yeah. Interesting that the head. Interesting that the head never showed up again. Yeah, that's very interesting. So the police can't say, you know, angle of bullet, whether it was another execution style murder? Yeah, they can't tell where the. Ball went through and. To this day, his the head's never been found, no. And to be honest, like that bit of evidence that the head is the biggest bit of evidence that would prove probably what went on.

1:02:26 Yeah. So what's basically been spoken about too, is that when all these bags and everything have come up to into the shore, you can see on the bags where the ones particularly being ripped open. And there's a thought process of that maybe as he's tried to get rid of these body parts because he's admitted he's admitted to that. So he admits the fact that he cut these body parts up and just and disposed of them that when like maybe that happened, maybe he started realizing they weren't sinking to the bottom as he expected.

1:02:53 So then he's gone. Oh, crap. The head's got all the information. And so he's pierced open the one of the bags and pulled that out and taken it somewhere else and went kind of gone. Oh yeah, those body parts can that they'll rock up. And I want to work out who that is. But the head that'll. That'll get me identify him. Yeah, yeah. Little Diddy. Like he didn't think that all the other trash within those bags. Yeah, that never entered attention. No, I don't know. Dunno. I don't know. There's that. I'm happy to be caught for these things, to be really honest.

1:03:25 Yeah, I think, I mean for somebody. So he's had the wherewithal to go, yeah, I need to get rid of the head, but not thought to better hide the other body parts. I think you're right. I think that shows that he is. I think he thought he was more intelligent than everyone. Else oh. For sure. And that you know, I was. As long as I've got this major bit, I'll be sweet. Yeah. Then the rest of it, it'll come, that'll sort itself out. Which in a ways, it did. Yeah. He, he managed to go through that trial.

1:03:54 And I mean they, the way they when they came into the apartment and they found, you know, that there was blood on the floor and there was cut marks in the line, the vinyl floor. And then they ripped that up to find the massive amount of blood underneath. I can't imagine what poo can cut a body up like that. What it would take to just do that. It floors me. That is non human. Oh, I couldn't agree with you more. And if it actually was an accidental thing, you think, I mean, I know he was hiding. He couldn't call the police and say.

1:04:34 But still. But maybe leave him there. Leave him there and say he came to my apartment or. Leave him there and fuck off. You've got the means to get out of there. Yes, exactly. Hide again. Hide again. Go somewhere else. Yeah, he's just made. Really. It's a. Whole nother level of inhumane. To. Cut a body up and dispose of it like it's just trash. Yeah. I just, that's where I just kind of go, well, no, no, there was purpose to this. There was intent there. There was a change. Whereas so somehow though the the jury in Galveston found him not guilty of murder.

1:05:09 And because the way that their law worked, the dismembering of the body became not a problem, wasn't. Well, I think because they they couldn't convict him of the murder, they then there was no charge that they could come to him for the dismemberment of the body. I think that's changed now though, because of this. Yeah, sure. Like it was like, it's like interference with a corpse or something like that. But yeah, there was no charge. For that charge, for that at the time, yeah. So he got off fucking Scott free, Yeah.

1:05:41 Insane. Insane that he got away with that. So, yeah, even he says at the end of that trail, he's like, I can't believe I got away with that. Not in those words exactly, but he admits that he thought he wouldn't get out of it. Yeah, yeah. Insane. Crazy, crazy. So basically, so at the end of all this trial and everything is sort of where we end up, I guess in with the jinx to that in the end of this the first season where we get to end that first season that he's been acquitted of the of killing Boris Black and kind of like you're like, well, it's quite possibly he's killed another two people that in this and he's also got away with this third one.

1:06:23 Holy shit, like this piece of crap he's gonna live his life fancy free with with this. And we get to the end of the Jinx first season and there's that little bit of audio where the they've finished filming for the day and talking to him and putting to him about. There was one little bit of evidence they've put to him was the the cadaver note matching up that with another letter that he had sent to Susan Berman and matching up that he misspelt Beverly on another envelope, as well as the cadaver note, which is gem of little, you know, little bit of snippet that it kind of put him on the spot and go, hey, we think we might have here a bit that, but I mean like handwriting.

1:07:03 Experts like it looks. Identical, but it's written. It's written the same address, 1527 Benedict Canyon. Beverly Hills Beverly Hills with the same spelling mistake. Yeah. So. Yeah, same block letters, same whatever. Yeah. And then so put that to him. But they're finished filming for the day and they're kind of like, what else can we do? Like now we just turn it over to the cops. Whatever. Do you know a full year went by? Yeah, a full year went by before anyone discovered there was more audio. Yeah, So what they were saying is at the end of recording the Jinx.

1:07:34 So just really quickly when the movie All Good Things came out, which is a a dramatized depiction of Robert Durst's life. Yeah, from the family's perspective, from Cathy, from. Cathy's perspective, that's right, The director of that movie was directly. Yeah. And when Bob saw the movie, he reached out to Jarecki and, like, wanted to talk to him about it. That's when they did that commentary for the movie. And then Jarecki was like, oh, do you reckon you might want to like, maybe we could do a documentary about this if you're willing to.

1:08:09 Well, I think. Even it was even sort of less to it then I'm like, let's just sit down and keep talking and see what happens. He didn't really know where it was going to go. Yeah. He was like, I don't know what I'm going to do with this. Yeah, footage this audio like, yeah. What they've been able to do is create the Jinx. What is it called? The the life and deaths of Robert Durst. And so Jarecki, he knows everything there is to know really about this. So at the end of Season 1, what Jarecki says is, you know, they've gotten everything out of him that they can.

1:08:38 They've asked him the difficult questions. They prepped so much for this. And they've asked him the question about the cadaver note and the Beverly Hills, the handwriting stuff and the sound. So they've finished filming. According to them, Bob says he needs to go to the toilet and the audio guy takes his headphones off. But Bob's still got his microphone on, so it's still hot miced. It's on, but no one's actually listening to anything because they've technically finished they've. Finished filming, they're just packing up all the equipment.

1:09:09 Everything was getting packed away, they just hadn't disconnected the mic yet. Microphone. Yet. Yeah. So a year later, they've got someone going through the footage, like to just sort of. Tie things up. Editing. Yeah. Editing together the show and they had one person who was sitting through listening to every bit of everything to like make sure there was a snippet somewhere that they couldn't use etcetera. And buried in all of this, she found that that little bit of audio from the at the end of that day where he says kill them all, of course, like, oh.

1:09:41 Yeah, And that was like a cliffhanger that the season ended on. Like, oh. Yeah, just crazy. Yeah, absolutely crazy. So yeah, basically we've got Morris Black, where he has been acquitted of his murder, but we know we did it like. And then there's still Susan Berman, who killed her, and Kathy is still missing.

1:10:06 We come back for season 2, I guess, of the Jinx. Also, at this point, with all these cliffhangers of what are the police gonna do with this information? Turns out really none of that stuff from the Jinx really got used in the ultimate trial, but it basically sparked them to start investigating again and really like look into further what happened to Susan Berman and the prosecutor. He is brilliant, absolutely amazing. I love him, such a down to earth guy, but very switched on and intelligent. He knew this case inside and out.

1:10:33 If if anyone knew this case more than Andrew Drecky, it was this guy. Like he was so good. So they went, they go basically fine enough to that they go and charge him for Susan Berman's murder and they link it to her having knowledge of Kathy McCormack. So at the same time as being convicted, if he would, they could convict him, convict him for Susan Berman's murder. It also does relate to a conviction for Kathy McCormack. So they bring him in and they charge him. They have to extradite him. From where was he at that point?

1:11:07 I can't remember. He was in Galveston. He was still in Galveston at that point, was he? Yeah. Yeah. So they had to extradite him from there back to New York. Sorry to California for that, because it that's where Susan Berman was, was murdered and they put him on trial for this, for that, for Susan Berman. And that's a hell of a trial. I mean, God, and he's old at this point. Well, he's not to be honest, he's not that old. He's in his 70s, but he looks like he's in his 90s, like he is not. He looks.

1:11:34 So unwell, yeah, I think they say he's got bladder cancer. Whether that's true or not, I'm not 100% sure. He was. He had a catheter in for all of his court appearances. He shaved his head so that you could see like you had a, what do you call it, a scar? No, there was a we had a, not a stent because that's what you put in your. Heart. No, it is. It was a stent. A stent, Yeah. Oh, OK Right. Yeah. So he had a stent and he's. Yeah. And he shaved his head so you could see that more like. Yeah, like, really.

1:12:04 He's just a fucking weird dude, Yeah. And he also wore like, really, really oversized clothes to make himself look smaller and more frail. Yeah, and he does. He looks like if he stood up, he'd bloody snap in half. Yeah, there's nothing of him. He's incredibly thin at this point, and he looks so unwell, like even his mouth. I think he must not be wearing dentures or something because you know, that really cello look, that sunken in look that people get when they don't have their dentures in. Like, it really reminds me of my beautiful grandma.

1:12:37 Yeah, the odd occasion I'd see her without her teeth in and she always looked so different, but it made her look so much older. So much older. And so I think he's doing we. Did a lot of that I think for the juries, you know, benefit for sympathy, absolutely. The trial for sure. And that's where, but I mean, he didn't live for long after that trial though either, so. So he was convicted of Susan Berman's murder in that trial. Yeah. And before he was able to get to sentencing, wasn't it? Yes. So he was never.

1:13:04 Sentenced. Fortunately he was never sentenced. And therefore, and because he passed away, similar to what we talked about with the Aaron Hernandez case, yeah, that conviction disappears. Yeah. Because he didn't go through the appeal process. Yeah, which I think that's. Bullshit. It's bullshit. Yeah. So yeah, he's got away with murder. He's got away with murder and he and because he didn't live long enough, it's not like they they were going to indict him for the murder of Kathy as well. Yeah, but because he didn't live long enough, actually did they indict him in the in the end, but they just never got to trial civilly.

1:13:37 Yeah, no, only civilly They've Yeah, there was. So the comics still to this day are fighting a civil trial, a civil case against his estate for the wrongful death of Cathy. I hope they get. All his money. I hope they do. I know it won't make any difference. No, it's not going. To be but it's not about that it's not about that for the family either. I know they want him just held accountable. I mean I know and I fully agree with them. He has used his money to this point to get away with it and he shouldn't.

1:14:07 And but the other person that I mean in this is the second wife, Deborah Lee, who is now, what do you call her trustee of his estate? Yeah, she. Was Yeah, she was his executor and sole beneficiary of his estate. She knows shit. Yeah, she is. I mean, she's got a legal team behind her now. Yeah. All through this. Well, every all access to his money. It's all you know. So she's a piece of shit. She's a total. Piece of shit. And she's fighting this civil case, whereas this is where it cheats me. The whole Durst family, where they all know who Robert Durst is.

1:14:42 They. Know his brothers have both been deposed in these cases and they they say it, they're like, they know that he's done this shit. Oh. Absolutely. The younger brother, Thomas particularly, yeah, I mean Douglas I think is a bit, I don't know. Whereas Thomas was more open in respect to talking about the family and he whereas Douglas is more closed off and doesn't. Want to talk about it? I feel like Douglas is because of the position he holds in the company. He just does not want to have a bar of what the fuck Robert has done because you can imagine that for their business that is less than ideal.

1:15:19 But. At the same time, it's it's shit as it is. Everyone knows that they're hiding someone that they shouldn't. Whereas if they just came out and said. He has publicly, publicly condemned Robert for what he's done. Yeah, Douglas. But then they should not back that in terms of the McCormick family. Absolutely, absolutely. And apologize to them. Or assist them in pursuing Robert Durst's estate. Yep, Yep. Yeah, and just, you know what, get rid of it. Like, sort it out, support them. That's what it really bugs me.

1:15:49 And that they've doubled down on that and done the whole like, oh, no, no, we protect the Durst name. You're not the Robert Durst is still, you know, that name will still forever blackened everything. He's still there. You've got to rise above it and be better than that to get rid of that mark on your name. But yeah, Thomas, his deposition is very interesting to listen to. He again very scared of Robert at one stage the because in this time Robert does is in the room whilst Thomas is testifying.

1:16:20 That would be so intimidating. Well, he the the lawyer even says to him, I'm sorry, but do you feel uncomfortable with Robert being in the room when you're doing this? And he was, he was like, yeah, this is really not OK. I don't feel safe, Like, horrible. That's your brother. That's your brother. Yeah, yeah. He only remembers a snippet of time in 1970. Like he pins it down to a time in 1970 when he was when Robert just was nice to him 8 * 8 times. He yeah, absolutely awful. But he, he speaks so beautifully of Kathy.

1:16:56 Yeah, he, he wishes he knew her better. But he, he said, he says in his deposition that he didn't know her well because he didn't have the time to get to know her because Robert wouldn't allow it. But he said she was just a lovely woman to be around and enjoyed her company. And they, they actually, he actually used to read her assignments for her, for her medical studies and things. He had quite, he's very intelligent man. And she trusted him to read her assignments and her applications for medical school too.

1:17:23 He proofread them all and stuff for her. And he said she's an incredibly intelligent person that we, they could really like converse over those things. But yeah, he was. But Robert was awful. Yeah, I mean, he he did that classic thing. He isolated her. He removed her. Like even her family, her brother says that, you know, where they were so incredibly close. I mean, it's, it's not like they lost the bond they had, but they certainly lost some of the closeness they had because Robert kept her from them.

1:17:54 And, yeah, I mean, he was just so controlling in so many ways. Yeah. Can we just talk really, really quickly about Stuart Altman and Emily Altman? Oh yeah, I know who you mean. So. Yeah, so. Stuart Altman is Bob's high school friend. Yeah. And I think Bob's only real life long friend. Yeah. You know, so we obviously Susan Berman, they were friends for a long time. Yeah. That was University College. Yeah, whereas Stuart's known him from a much younger age. Yeah, Stuart married a woman named Emily and they stood by Bob through all of his shit.

1:18:32 Yeah, he's his lawyer. Yeah, well, so, yeah. So Stuart Altman was a lawyer, but he wasn't a criminal lawyer. He was. I don't even know what he did. He's just a small time small town. Yeah, Sort. Of boy, I don't know what he. Did almost want to say almost conveyance or like. Yeah, something like that, like, you know. Yeah. But he claimed attorney-client privilege when he was deposed, and his wife also claimed privilege because apparently attorney-client privilege extends to all staff members of a law firm.

1:19:11 So it's not just the lawyer involved in the case. So she worked there like a day a week or something, so. She actually claimed that. No, but so she claimed that she had privilege as well. But in the trial for Susan Berman, now Emily is. Really. The nail in his. Coffin. Yeah, this was the nail in his coffin. Emily was called to testify and well, actually both both were. Stuart testified first and. Oh isn't that an interesting? When he's up on the stand it shit me. Yeah, because he like bloody talks to the judge and he's like, do I have to answer?

1:19:45 Do I have to answer that? Do I have to? Well, I don't know what to say to that. And oh, he can't ask me that, can he? I love the judge. The judge's response is like, get to it, mate. Yeah, hurry up. And then, yeah, he even says to the judge, Judge, can't we hurry this along? And he's like, yeah, answer the question and then we can move this along. Yeah, yeah, I think he goes. I've got to be, you know, in New York tomorrow. For two days yeah, question, question. We can move on anyway. Then after he did not really reveal or give any information that was useful at all.

1:20:12 But then Emily comes on the stand next, and they so the prosecutor I've just lost. His Lewin. Lewin Yeah. He he was awesome. He backed her into a corner like he knew that she knew stuff. But he didn't know what she knew. I love that. So he in so the it's funny because his Co counsel who was sitting there like helping him like with the questions and they'd prepped all of this stuff. His Co counsels interviewed and he's like, I didn't know where he was taking this and then it's not on the running sheet and I didn't know what he was doing and and I didn't know like how to help him, why we hadn't prepped for this.

1:20:46 But he basically like he he figures by an answer that she says that she knows more about about Robert's whereabouts, because at this point they hadn't put together that Robert was definitely in. California. They could only place him in California, in San Francisco, Francisco. They couldn't place him in LA Yeah. And that was what the missing piece was they could make, if they could have someone identify the fact that he was in LA on that date. Bang, he definitely did the he was there to murderer then, right?

1:21:14 Kind of thing. Yeah. So he was just hoping that she knew something. Yeah. And it got to the point where he's like, so this goes on for many, many minutes, like probably 15 or 20 minutes where he's like, he's asking her more questions and more leading questions and leading, leading, leading. And eventually she says yes, he was in LA on the night of of. Yeah, and how she knew that or something like. But she says it like in a way of like that, that it's not important information, but. Yeah, because she doesn't.

1:21:43 Know she doesn't mean she hasn't she hasn't put it together. And then Robert Durst, his interview of that of like, you know, like, oh, not his interview, but he's it's his recording of in the jail when he rings someone or he goes, you know, that fucking Emily, She didn't she's such an idiot. He goes. She's so stupid.

1:21:59 Oh God, So what do you know? But he loves them. They're such a good friend, so lovely, such a lovely friend that Josh, she's a fucking. Idiot. Yeah. So like, turns her, turns on her on a dime. She's been loyal to him forever. She didn't know she was. She actually. Didn't know. You can tell from like how she answered. She then bursts into tears. Yeah, that she she tweeted, because the prosecutor then says to her, do you realize that Bob has never admitted to being in LA at that on that night? And she goes, no, I didn't.

1:22:23 And she burst into tears. Yeah, she's fuck. I had fucked him over here. Yeah. She still got a Lexus out of it. Yeah, yeah, she got a Lexus, whatever, and I'm sure other things as well. Plenty of money, plenty of money. Yeah, but it's gone now. But have you seen the she visits Bob in prison pre this, pre pre trial and she goes to see him and he's like, oh, stand up for me. And, and she stands up and moves back. And then she gets back on the phone because it's one of those they both have to have the phone in order to talk to one another, to one another.

1:22:57 And he goes, you look so sexy. And he goes, does Stuart tell you you're sexy? And she goes, oh, no, we've been married for 30 years. Of course he doesn't tell me I'm sexy. And he's like, well, you are. If someone's if a friend of mine like husband. Oh, like, yuck. Said that to me. You would never go to their house. Oh my God, no, I'm sorry. Nuck. I'd be going home to my husband saying your mate just said this like Oh no. I don't want anything to do. Don't do him. That is so inappropriate. What a line across.

1:23:25 She loved it. Oh, she loved it. She absolutely loved it. Yuck. Yeah. Hmm. Yuck. Yuck. Yuck, that's the same as his like little piece on the side like that he had she that she's interesting too. There was Susan, I wanna say her name was. I kind of it wasn't S. Names. Yeah, but yeah, he was having like he, he just constantly cheated on. Yeah, well, he wasn't cheating on well, Deborah Lee, because she has a partner, that she lives within the city in New York. Boyfriend. Yeah, and and he's known to openly.

1:23:54 Yeah, they know each other. There's one phone call where he rings the house to speak to Deborah. Yeah. And the boyfriend answers the phone and he and he's. Oh, hey, Bob. No, it's. What are his name is, You know, it's too modern. I can't remember his name was. It's too much. I'll go get her for you. Yeah. And then you hear him call out in the background, Hun, It's it's Bob. Yeah, you know, And it's like, what the fuck? Yeah. That's your wife you're calling like, Oh no, But yeah, because. He as we.

1:24:18 Said And openly, openly, like she they would go out to charity events, et cetera. You know, all that together, those two as a couple, Like people knew that they were together, but she was still legally married to Bob. Yep. Yeah. God, I just wrote down another quote. Oh yeah. So when Bob's on trial, he ends up taking the stand. And which was, I don't think his lawyers wanted him to. So in the drinks, they interviewed and they're like, oh, they don't say it, but you can tell that it wasn't the way they wanted it to go.

1:24:51 Yeah, but he decided he wanted to take the the stand because he wanted the attention. Absolutely. And the prosecutor says to him, if you killed her, would you tell us? So this is in the trial of Susan Berman. Obviously, if you killed her, would you tell us? And he goes no. And he and he goes, so you're essentially perjuring yourself. Yeah, like he just openly admits to the fact that he would never admit to it. He oh, and then he says, have you lied in court? And he goes, yes, I'm like, for fuck's sake, dude.

1:25:26 So. And and then the prosecutor's incredulous at that. He's like, but so you're telling us Underoath that you have perjured yourself? Is that is that your testimony? And he goes, yes, I'm like, for fuck's sake, what is with this point? He just doesn't give a shit. No, I mean, I think he knows he's dying too. This is the thing. That's it. I think that honestly, not that he would give away anything. No, if you're gonna work it out on your own, you can have it. Yeah. Like, yeah, he's definitely. He played it.

1:26:01 He played. He was playing them the whole time and. Yeah. This is just one big lifelong, essentially lifelong game for him. Yeah. Although was this the only game? So there are inferences that potentially he murdered more people. So it's being investigated cold cases by the FBI that potentially he could be linked to the murders of Lynn Schultz from Mulberry, Vermont. He was 18 at the 18 years old at the age of at a disappearance. Karen Mitchell from Eureka, CA, and also Kristin Modafry, who was eighteen from San Francisco.

1:26:41 And all these occurred in 1997, so. These were all young women, weren't they? They were all, all young women. So the, the, yeah, the, the FBI are looking into these cases. They haven't been able to link him entirely to this day. But there, there certainly is connections to these deaths. He's, he's definitely interacted with each of these people and they can certainly pinpoint that. I think the thing that they're not so with all with the other three murders, there's motive there and like a known and strong motive.

1:27:15 Yeah. I think with these ones, they're like, well, is this random? Like has he just escalated? Like why has, what is the motive? Why has he killed these women? Yeah, if it is him. Because there was like, obviously with Kathy, there's, there's motive in terms of like he just, he wanted out of the marriage and she was asking for money and he didn't want to deal with it. Yep. You know, Susan Berman knew stuff about Cathy's murder and she was going to blab to the cops. So there's a motive for that one.

1:27:38 Morris Black, we don't quite have motive, but quite possibly he was going to expose that Robert Dess was there in Galveston, He was hiding out. There's quite possibly easily motive there that you could find in terms of his murder. Whereas these random sort of women, there's not those immediate possibilities of, of a, a motive. So he's, he's been looked into for the Long Island serial killer as well. So he's not just murdered people. He knows it's what I'm trying to get at is that potentially there's, there's more to it than that.

1:28:10 He's there's been investigations also that have traced Durst operating under stolen identities in Texas, Florida, Massachusetts, New Jersey, South Carolina, Mississippi and Virginia. So he's well known for having lots of different identities around. So which could mean that he's, you know, yeah, operating under the radar and potentially has murdered more. Yeah. Which is scary as fuck. I don't know if we'll ever get conclusions to any of that. I don't think, I don't think we'll ever know, but he's one creepy weird ass dude.

1:28:44 He's so weird so just if you haven't seen what he looks like and what his demeanor is, please just Google. Even just watch 5 minutes of footage because even his mannerisms, the way just all of him, he's just yeah and don't you reckon his eyes are just evil? Yes. Oh, they're black. They're black. This. It's weird because it's fair. Yeah, but his eyes are. Black it, it creeps me out. I do, and I find this really like I agree with like Andrew Drake, his take on this in terms of like when he when they worked out this connection of like that Godiva note that they had him that it was it was his handwriting, it was him, the same spelling mistake, all that kind of stuff.

1:29:22 He was saying like he didn't want to present that almost to him because he liked him. He he he was, he isn't endearing. He's funny. Like he doesn't know he is. Yeah, like it's you watch that jinx and you. Yeah, I mean, freaking hell, those conversations and stuff. There's something about him that you kind of also go, oh God, he's fucking weird. But he's he's he's such a jittery old man, like, you know, like and you, you kind of like him. Yeah, you want it. But yeah, but he know. He's evil. Whole other level of Creed as well.

1:29:52 Well, yeah, I guess it's just that intriguing. Human. Yeah. Like, yeah, he's intriguing. Yeah, very much so I. Mean, yeah, I'd love to sit down and talk to him because I think that. Not that I can now, obviously, but yeah, he's a very interesting person. Yeah. Look behind bars, please. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. He, I mean, you know, he's deceased now, but he, he would have to have been in prison for the rest of his life because there was no reform for him. No way. I mean, this is it. Like, I mean, whether he just killed these three people that we've spoken about clearly today or whether there is a whole nother level of serial killer kind of in him.

1:30:29 Yeah. Not. Not. Regardless, you want to be around not. He wouldn't have been able to have been rehabilitated. No, no, no, no. Yeah. He would he would definitely in 105 that he could kill someone again. I reckon that's what I kind of at one stage I was like, oh, his brothers are like so scared of him murdering him. And you kind of see this old man like walking around the city, like limping, you know, along and that and you think I have to be scared of that. Like what is he going to do? I reckon he turned away.

1:30:55 Yeah, he was cunning, yeah, that is for sure. Yeah, All right. Do you? Think we leave it there. As we said, there is so much more to this case. I've got pages and pages of notes that we haven't even touched. Just got Peter in the back of my head going. Have we told people where the body is? Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Oh, Oh yeah. No, there's only one other thing that his brother came out. Oh, my God. OK, this is really gross. So his brother actually in that one of the depositions, this is Douglas, the other brother.

1:31:24 He told a story of that He believed that Robert Durst killed six of his dogs in practice before he killed Kathy. I did not know that. So the jurors heard a recorded phone call between Durst and his second wife in which he talks of igoring his younger brother, Douglas Durst, right. Igor is the name of Durst dog. Douglas Durst, the head of the Durst real estate empire in New York, says Robert Durst killed, sorry, seven dogs named Igor as practice.

1:32:02 He had seven dogs with the same name. Yeah, that's, yeah, I find that even like, I think he like, replaced it once he killed it so that he never saw that there was more than one dog. Oh, I did not know that. No, that was just. Oh, that's. Oh yeah though Alaskan Malamutes, which I know he's known for having. Yeah, and was named Igor. And he? Oh my God, he killed and disposed of the bodies of the dogs. Well, there's that escalation again then, isn't it? Yeah. Try to kill him, Kathy. Yeah. Yeah. So that's just an accusation by his brother, but there's a definite phone call that is that is on record.

1:32:38 I gore you. I'm gonna I gore talked about igoring. Yeah. His brother Doug. Yeah. OK. Oh fuck that is so fucked up. Yeah, yeah. Bloody hell. Gross. Gross. Don't kill. Gross. That's awful. Yeah. On that note, yeah, let's leave it there. I just noticed the time and it has been a long one. Great. Thank you to everybody who's gotten to the end of this episode. We look forward to seeing you again next week. Don't forget, as always, to subscribe if you haven't already or hit that follow button in your podcasting app.

1:33:10 And if you would like us, if you would like to buy us a coffee or a wine, head to the link in our bio. So it's Buy me a coffee.com/two Crime Besties. Thanks everyone, We'll see you next week. Stay curious, Crime besties. Bye.