Episode 29 - Robert Durst

0:15 Welcome back to Crime Besties to episode 29 of the podcast.

0:19 How are you going today, Meg? Oh.

0:20 You know, getting there. Yeah.

0:22 Yeah, we're here. I'm here.

0:23 I've arrived. Yes, I think that's that's a

0:25 positive. We're doing very, very well.

0:27 Yeah, I was saying to you this morning I, well, yesterday I

0:33 actually threw my neck out turning the toaster on.

0:36 Yeah, so I've. I've got shut up don't 40.

0:42 Me to get turning. Turning 40 this year.

0:45 Yeah, turning the toaster on. How bloody ridiculous.

0:48 But I'm, I've, I've got the drugs on board and the nice, you

0:52 know, guarded movements. But she'll be right.

0:55 We'll get through. Luckily we're just podcasting

0:57 and sitting down and not doing much else.

1:00 It's the worst. I mean, I could list a million

1:02 of them have done in in the recent recent years.

1:05 Getting out of bed and Oh yeah, pulling a hemi, washing my hair,

1:09 pulling muscle in my shoulder. Seriously.

1:12 Yeah, it's it's great fun getting older, isn't it?

1:14 Isn't it? It sucks.

1:16 I mean, The thing is you go to the gym regularly, you know, you

1:18 could do some serious injuries at the gym, Yeah, but you know,

1:21 it was. Turning on the toes.

1:22 The toaster. Yeah, you know, seriously.

1:25 Anyway, what's been happening with you lately?

1:28 Where have you been? What have you been doing?

1:29 What have we been doing? The weather's getting really

1:32 good. I'm been out in the garden.

1:33 It's driving me nuts. My with the weather we've got at

1:35 the moment, literally, I literally turn my back and the

1:37 weeds are back. Like, no, it's driving me

1:39 mental. So I feel like I'm out there all

1:41 the time at the moment trying to keep on that.

1:43 Yeah. I think I need to get someone in

1:45 just to. I'm so over my garden.

1:47 Yeah, yeah. Just give it a good once over.

1:49 Yeah, yeah, just get like I'm in for paying someone else to do

1:53 shit. Like that, you know, as I get

1:56 older, the more I'm like, yeah, let's just throw money at that

1:59 situation because AI don't have the time, the energy or the

2:03 patience to actually deal with it.

2:04 Yeah. I'd rather work an extra day,

2:06 pay for someone to do it than do it myself.

2:10 Yeah. And.

2:11 I like, I go out there and let my kids like one's really

2:13 helpful. The other one just creates

2:16 arguments, you know, and complaints about every bit of

2:19 it. So.

2:20 Oh. Only had me so that I could do

2:22 jobs. Yes.

2:25 Do you remember saying that to your parents Exactly.

2:28 Yeah. Yeah.

2:29 That you only had you so you could empty the dishwasher of

2:31 all the dishes that you've created.

2:32 Take it. Fairly.

2:33 Yeah, that's yeah. All your rubbish in.

2:36 It oh man, like trying to get them to do the chores stuff is

2:39 just a nightmare, isn't it? Something it's.

2:41 Such a nightmare. I love it when, like, you know,

2:43 you've done all the jobs in the night.

2:44 You've picked up your groceries that you ordered.

2:46 You can spend the time doing that.

2:47 You've then come home and unpacked and then cook dinner

2:49 and vacuum some floor, done all these jobs.

2:51 And then you turn to one of them and say, do you mind unpacking

2:53 the dishwasher? They're like, Oh my God, I do

2:55 everything. What?

2:57 Do I have to do do everything around here?

2:59 Oh. I'm.

3:00 Like it's actually your job, that's what you get your pocket

3:02 money for. Yeah, yeah, you agreed to this,

3:05 remember I? Actually had pocket, the whole

3:06 pocket money thing is motivating for my kids because I'm like,

3:09 oh, that's fine, I'll just stop your pocket money because we've

3:11 got a like an app that we use to give them their pocket money.

3:14 Yeah, so and you can do that, you can pause it for a week or

3:17 whatever or give them less. Yeah.

3:20 So that is motivating. But yeah, what's more motivating

3:23 is if I say, all right, well then the other child can do it

3:26 and I'll pay them your pocket money.

3:28 Yes, I use that all the time. Yeah, yeah.

3:30 Whenever they're bugging me on something, I'm like, the next

3:33 time I hear that or next time that happens, your pocket money

3:36 will be going to the other one for the week.

3:37 And it's like, Oh, no, no. That is the worst because not

3:39 only do they they get like double the amount of money then

3:42 that's the other one gets. Yeah.

3:44 No, that is definitely motivating for sure.

3:46 Yeah. Yeah, that's.

3:48 It love it oh the power sometimes is great it's.

3:51 Great. Yeah, but yet we're still the

3:53 little, you know, minions for them running around and doing

3:55 all the other jobs. Other taxi drivers, etcetera.

3:58 Yeah, for sure. It's really gonna get worse.

4:01 I think it will get worse. A friend of mine has an older,

4:04 an older daughter and she was like running around the last

4:07 week or the week before. She'd been to a couple of

4:09 parties, was picking her up late at night.

4:12 Yeah. Oh, my God.

4:13 You know, yeah, the responsibility shift, that's for

4:16 sure. Oh.

4:17 It does. It does.

4:18 I don't. Know how I'm gonna stay awake

4:19 late enough to pick my kids up from parties?

4:21 That might have to be Peter's job.

4:23 Yeah, you're not, not a laid out and not out at all.

4:25 No. Whereas I'll be one.

4:26 Yeah, maybe you do the runner, I'll do them off.

4:29 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You can pick them up.

4:31 I'll do the 1:00 AM pick up. That's not an issue.

4:33 It's just then don't wake me up in the morning.

4:35 I think that's fine. I'll come.

4:36 No, well, they won't wake up in the.

4:37 Morning. No, that's I'm looking forward

4:39 to that. Yeah, that'll be all right.

4:41 We can all do our teenager sleep insurance, yeah.

4:45 Catch up on everything that's been missed.

4:47 No. Way knowing then they'll have

4:48 somebody sport they need to be out at 8:00 AM.

4:51 I think if they get older, don't the sports get a bit later?

4:53 I hope so. They.

4:54 Better. They better.

4:56 Yeah, I've got a few shout outs for today because we have had a

4:59 lot of engagement on our social media and some of this stuff was

5:02 from last year. But we've just got a few names

5:04 of people we'd like to shout out.

5:05 So we've got Chantelle Squires, Samantha Hart, Naomi Eloise,

5:10 Alicia Marie, just into Henrickson and Carol.

5:15 So just Carol. So thank you to every for to

5:20 everybody for counting and and sharing our posts and sharing

5:24 out our podcast to friends and family because.

5:28 Positive feedback too, like I mean, we're happy to take on

5:32 negative feedback too, it just hasn't been any.

5:35 Only from my husband. Yeah, it's true.

5:38 He always has notes at the end of every episode, all

5:40 constructive, so that's OK. Yeah, we're happy to take that

5:43 on. Well, we need producer Pete.

5:44 It's all good. Yeah, thanks, Pete.

5:47 He's like, he actually said to me the other day, he's like, you

5:49 know, you never, you've never given me a shout out.

5:51 I'm like, I'm sure we have. We said thanks to him.

5:54 We're not like, yeah. Yeah, that's all you get, mate.

5:56 Thanks. Thanks, Peter.

5:59 Yeah. All right.

6:00 What are we covering today? This is a big one.

6:02 It is a huge one this week. So I we've already discussed

6:04 this a little bit this morning of like there is so much to this

6:07 that we we won't go deep dive probably into much of this

6:12 because we we'll just say we don't want to do two parties and

6:14 things like that. And this could most certainly be

6:16 a two-part. Well, you know, it could be a

6:17 series this particular guy. So, but we will cover it broadly

6:23 I guess that's. Exactly right.

6:25 We're doing sort of a broad strokes take on Robert Durst,

6:28 the Jinx today. If you want to know any further

6:32 in depth information, there is so, so, so, so, so, so, so much

6:35 out there. Well, actually what we were

6:37 discussing is for this particular case when we were

6:40 researching it, there's a lot of depth in what you can find.

6:44 There's not a lot of breadth, as in there's not a huge number of

6:48 podcasts or no even like YouTube clips and that kind of thing, or

6:53 YouTube shows about Robert Durst.

6:56 Yeah, there's the Jinx. Which is.

6:58 Fabulous, which is AI mean that it is so, so informative yeah

7:04 but for those of you who don't have many multiples of hours to

7:07 sit there and watch two seasons yeah of this.

7:10 And also like I found so when we'd I'd watched season 1 before

7:15 we decided to do this case, I hadn't watched season 2 yet

7:18 yeah. So when we decided to cover

7:20 this, I watched season 2 and then I went back and watched

7:24 season 1 again right. And which I only just finished

7:28 last night and even doing that, I'd forgotten so much stuff

7:33 because and I'm I'm assuming if I watched season 2 again, I'd

7:36 pick up on things that I'd missed along the way because

7:39 there's just so many details and it all fits in and locks in

7:42 together. So please forgive us if there's

7:45 something that we don't cover, because it'll just be due to the

7:49 fact that we don't have the time to literally cover every single

7:52 thing in this case. This guy's LED a life like.

7:57 He's LED alive. All right.

7:58 So Robert Ellen Durst was born in Scarsdale, NY on the 12th of

8:03 April in 1943. He's the eldest of four children

8:07 to Seymour and Bernice Durst. So there's Robert as the oldest,

8:11 and then he's got a brother, Douglas, a sister named Wendy

8:15 and a younger brother named Thomas.

8:17 His mum and dad were married in 1940, and then he was born in

8:20 1943. I think his dad was something

8:23 like 11 or 12 years older than his mum, right?

8:27 So there was a bit of an age, you know, a bit of an age

8:29 difference there. Yeah.

8:31 But I mean, do we get into his mum from the get?

8:34 Go let's let's start there because I think it starts a lot

8:37 of this to be. Honest, I think I do too.

8:39 Yeah. So his mum was, look, I think

8:43 they grew up, the kids grew up in quite an emotionally vacant

8:49 family. Yeah, they were incredibly

8:53 wealthy. So the Durst family own a real

8:56 estate empire known as the Durst Organization.

8:59 They have significant holdings in New York City.

9:01 So they own a lot of property in New York City.

9:03 Top five, you know, in New York in terms of property, you know,

9:08 out there with Trump, that sort of stuff.

9:09 Yeah. Oh, that's the circle that they

9:11 were in. Yeah.

9:12 So the company. Still to this?

9:13 Day, yeah, still to this day, yeah, the company is worth about

9:15 $8 billion, B billion not so they are not short of a penny.

9:21 And they certainly grew up in a very affluent area, like in an

9:26 affluent suburb. They were raised by nannies

9:30 essentially. There wasn't a lot of

9:33 involvement from their parents and it doesn't sound like they

9:36 were a very close knit family by any stretch of the imagination.

9:41 When Robert was seven years of age, his mother passed away, so

9:47 she was aged 32 at the time. The reports at the time in the

9:52 media were that she fell off the roof of their house, and people

9:58 sort of accepted that as fact. Well, also knowing that she

10:04 actually died by suicide. So she suffered from mental

10:07 illness. And it sounds incredibly tragic,

10:11 but she has obviously gotten to a point where she felt like this

10:16 was the only way out. Did you find much about the

10:19 relationship between Seymour and Beneath?

10:22 Like did you see like what their relationship find anything about

10:25 what their relationship was like?

10:27 Not really. And because the bits that I did

10:29 find were from Seymour or from Robert, exactly that I, I just

10:35 don't trust in the information because then you see other

10:38 spots, other places where that contrary contradicts that and I

10:41 don't know who to believe. There was a neighbor who made a

10:44 statement at the time saying that there wasn't a lot of

10:49 affection in the marriage. So I think if you read into

10:51 that, maybe like it doesn't sound like it was a very happy

10:55 home or anything like that. I mean, Robert talked a lot

10:58 about the fact that and he he sort of talks about this

11:01 relationship he had with his mother, which was so beautiful

11:03 and so loving. But I from other perspectives,

11:07 that's not the case. And not that she was, you know,

11:10 harsh or anything, but just that there wasn't much of a

11:12 relationship. She was suffering from mental,

11:15 Yeah, like suffering mental ill health.

11:19 She probably didn't have a lot of capacity to mother be that.

11:22 Yeah. And then Seymour was a

11:25 workaholic. Yeah.

11:26 Like completely invested in business and wasn't really

11:28 present as a father at. All.

11:30 So after Bernice passed away, they were literally the kids

11:35 were literally raised by nannies.

11:38 Robert's account of that night is that he saw his mum fall or

11:43 jump off the roof. Yeah.

11:46 Douglas, the second eldest brother, claims that they would

11:50 that didn't actually happen at all and that they were at a

11:53 neighbor's house that night. And because their mother's

11:57 behavior was escalating, they'd sort of been removed from the

12:00 home, right? And that none of the and all

12:04 four of the children were at this neighbour's house and they

12:06 were all together and none of them witnessed it.

12:09 So this is just. His entire life, Robert Durst

12:12 swears, swears that he his father put him in a in view of

12:17 his mother and made him and made him watch this happen.

12:20 Yeah. So one thing that we need to

12:23 keep in mind, I think as we go throughout this is Robert Durst

12:27 is a pathological. Liar.

12:28 Yeah, well, there's a lot of things, he's a lot of things and

12:32 what I couldn't work out was OK, so seven years old age,

12:35 obviously his mother passing away, however that occur that's

12:39 going to impact someone 100%. What I was trying to find was

12:43 what his behaviour was like prior and then after what there

12:46 was it because there was difference is there was

12:47 differences but you really can't find I.

12:49 Couldn't find anything. I thought the same thing.

12:51 I'm like, was there a significant change at that time

12:54 for him? But.

12:55 The only stuff I could find was that from the siblings, there

12:59 was comments around that the sibling rivalry, particularly

13:03 between Douglas and Robert was there from literally birth of

13:06 Douglas. You know, this it was basically

13:09 always talked about that that rivalry was from from get go.

13:12 OK. And so from the the age of 10,

13:15 Robert was taken to and Douglas as well, both of them were taken

13:20 to a psychologist because it was that bad.

13:22 Like the the situation, their relationship between them was

13:25 not good and it was physical violence.

13:27 It was not not great. Robert was also running away a

13:30 lot, doing lots of other behaviours.

13:32 So there was a lot going on for him that they took both of them

13:35 along to a psychologist. And at that time it was

13:39 discussed around the fact that Robert was showing signs of

13:43 schizophrenia and psychopath. So that's interesting that at

13:48 the age of 10, those things were red flagged around his, his

13:52 behaviour, his personality, those sorts of things.

13:54 But that would have been potentially trauma.

13:57 Yes, and that's what I couldn't work out, was like if those

14:00 behaviours were already there prior to or not.

14:03 Whether this significant trauma in his life is like.

14:06 Is the triggered it or is triggered or not?

14:08 I'm not sure. But either way, at the age of

14:10 10, that stuff was being spoken about as to what he was

14:14 presenting as. And then what I find interesting

14:17 of that, then continuing on with this family, there's never any

14:21 heat like to the point where they were saying he probably

14:23 should have been institutionalized, which is what

14:24 they would do in that era. Not not so much what we would do

14:27 these days, but definitely intervention of sorts, you know,

14:29 But there was talk about he should have been

14:31 institutionalized at that point, which what he was not.

14:36 Well, yeah, I mean, imagine what I mean.

14:39 I guess we don't know. You don't know what would have

14:41 happened if that had of taken place.

14:43 But maybe not all of the things, maybe not everything came to be.

14:47 Yeah. Yeah.

14:49 In the 1960s, late 1960s into the early 70s, he attended

14:54 Lehigh University and then went on to UCLA, Berkeley, so the

14:58 University of California, Berkeley.

15:01 He was studying economics at the time.

15:04 And so I've heard him described by Piers in his university

15:09 studies is being quite intelligent but really weird.

15:14 So he didn't assimilate into sort of the, you know, the

15:20 population or he was just always a bit of a bit of an outcast,

15:24 unusual, odd. And, you know, people knew him

15:27 because he was odd. Like he was noted.

15:29 Like it was that notable. Yeah.

15:31 I mean, he's, yeah, he he is a really odd dude.

15:35 Really, really odd dude. So he when he was at UCLA, is

15:41 that when he decided to study a doctorate and then he, like,

15:45 dropped out right before he finished it?

15:48 Yeah. So what was that about?

15:50 Yeah, I think, I don't know because he he wasn't really

15:53 interested in anything. No.

15:55 So he was like going through the motions.

15:57 I mean, he's moved from from New York, yeah, over to California,

16:03 escaping maybe some of that family stuff or like, what do

16:06 you think? I.

16:07 Think underlying it all in terms of what he was going to

16:10 university for was at the end of the day, the way the family was

16:13 structured was that the company would be run by the eldest son.

16:19 That was kind of this inferred inevitability that that's what

16:23 was going to occur. So I think, you know,

16:25 entitlement stepped in a little bit in terms of like, yeah, I'm

16:27 at university, but I'm a billion dollar company coming my way.

16:31 Like I'll just be running that. But I think he never wanted it.

16:35 But he didn't want it. But he wanted it like as in it

16:38 was just, it was just he we should have just got it.

16:40 Yeah. It wasn't about warning.

16:41 It wasn't the fact that, like his dad, as you say, it was a

16:43 workaholic. He lived for that company.

16:45 I mean, it's, I find that interesting about people like,

16:48 you know, billionaires in that people want to become rich

16:51 because they can want to live a lifestyle.

16:53 But then there's people who want to become rich for the fact of

16:55 being rich. And they just want to be rich.

16:56 Notoriety. Like, yeah.

16:58 And having, that's where I, that's where I think he fitted

17:00 into that category of like, you know, his dad clearly was a

17:03 workaholic and wanted this business to operate and function

17:06 and keep making money, you know, and he had skills to do that.

17:10 Whereas, I don't know, maybe Robert just sort of thought, you

17:13 know, yeah, I'll just step into that.

17:15 Like I'll just do that. But I don't have to work in hard

17:17 to be, you know, work hard to do that because I'll have a

17:19 lifestyle. I don't know, like unlimited.

17:22 Access Unlimited access to money, yeah.

17:26 I there was a quote from Robert about his time at university and

17:31 he was basically saying that he was just there to smoke pot.

17:33 Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I'm gonna enroll myself in

17:37 a really expensive college degree, which obviously that

17:39 wouldn't have been a factor. The money wouldn't have been a.

17:41 This is it. And like people.

17:42 Take out these hundreds of thousands of dollars of student

17:45 loans in the US to attend university, Yeah, that wouldn't

17:48 have been a factor for him. So he's just gone there.

17:51 That's what you do. You leave school, you go to

17:53 university. Yeah, like money wasn't a an

17:56 issue. Issue.

17:56 No. I'll do what I wish.

17:58 I'll do what I please. Because the fact that he chose

18:00 an economics degree shows that he obviously.

18:03 I was thinking somewhere along. The lines.

18:05 Of I guess I need to know that stuff for later on when I but

18:08 then when I run this business. Dropping out of the doctor at 2

18:11 like a few months before he was due to complete and he just

18:14 didn't finish. Yeah, because, like, who cares?

18:16 I'm just, I am just who I am. And yeah.

18:18 Yeah, yeah. All interest.

18:20 At UCLA, he met a woman by the name of Kathy McCormick.

18:27 She was a few years younger than him, wasn't she?

18:30 Yeah, there was a little bit of an age gap.

18:31 Not as big as his parents obviously, but yeah.

18:34 Yeah, a little bit younger age gap.

18:35 Yeah. So was this around his 30th

18:39 birthday? So this is where the timeline

18:40 for me gets a bit weird. So.

18:42 So he's that. So he's met her. 1971 he meets

18:45 her. Yeah, and they get married in

18:47 1973. Yeah.

18:49 So he's, this is around the time that he's dropping out of UCLA,

18:52 right? Yeah.

18:53 When they get married. Yes, yes.

18:55 So at that time, she's working as a dental hygienist.

18:57 Yeah, when he meets her, she is. Yep, Yep, Yep.

19:00 And it was. All very quick going because he

19:01 was actually living in Vermont still already.

19:03 Yeah, at that stage. So.

19:04 Yeah. Right.

19:05 So he'd been living there for about a year, I think it was

19:07 1970. He moved to Vermont.

19:09 He took over a business that was already operating.

19:12 That's not it. I think people often think that

19:14 he started this business. He didn't.

19:16 He just. He bought a business and renamed

19:19 it to All Good Things. It was a health food store in in

19:22 Vermont. So it was operating and

19:24 operating well. Like it wasn't like he had this

19:26 genius idea and went in there and did this so.

19:29 But still, yeah, different lifestyle though, to living in

19:31 the city where his dad was running the Durst family

19:34 organization and he. Was just like operating a store

19:38 like a retail business. It's weird.

19:41 No. Why not a people person?

19:44 Not at all, but also what what would motivate you?

19:46 It's not like he needed money. No, no.

19:48 But he, I think he just didn't wanna be in the city.

19:51 Yeah, OK, but. And it gave him something to do

19:54 every day, like to show up there because he used to go every day.

19:57 Yeah. It's not like he had someone

19:59 else running, running it until Kathy came along.

20:01 Until. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

20:02 And then once Kathy came along, she quit her job as the.

20:05 Yeah. Well, on their second date, he

20:07 asked her to move to Vermont, move in with him and run the

20:11 store. And yeah, so on the second date,

20:14 that's. That's pretty fucking.

20:16 Quick. It's very quick.

20:17 She was an absolutely stunning young woman.

20:22 And impressive. So intelligent.

20:24 So, you know, she just was a lot.

20:26 She was a lot up a room kind of person.

20:28 Like, really? Energetic, beautiful hair.

20:30 Yeah. And you can see videos of her

20:32 online if you want to go and have a look.

20:34 And she's, she's just, I know people say this about the dead

20:37 all the time, but this is true of her.

20:40 She was vibrant like she was. You could tell she had the light

20:43 like light in her eyes. People enjoyed her company.

20:46 Yeah, and like, she just, she looked bronzed and healthy and

20:51 she had a glow about her and she just was loving life.

20:53 And as you said, she was incredibly intelligent.

20:56 She could have had her pick of any man.

20:59 I would. Imagine.

21:00 Yeah, yeah, definitely. And she's.

21:02 Chosen. Well, I, I sort of, I don't know

21:05 that she chose. I think he chose, Yeah,

21:08 personally, I think you're right.

21:10 There's a personality type. And he went.

21:12 I'll take that. Yeah.

21:14 And he made sure that that's what like, you know, because he

21:16 had a lot of ways around about him that a lot of people say

21:19 very charismatic. Someone, I heard someone

21:22 describe him as like the three C's.

21:24 It was like charming, charming and oh, far out.

21:28 What was the? 3rd Criminal.

21:31 Didn't say coercive, but it wasn't coercive.

21:33 I'll think. I'll try and think of it.

21:34 While we're right. Yeah.

21:36 And I'm like, yeah, bloody hell yes.

21:37 He's charisma. Yeah, there's that.

21:39 Certainly love bomb too, that's for sure.

21:41 I think he, you know, gave her everything that and.

21:44 She look she came from a very close knit family, but they

21:47 certainly were not well off. No, no, a lovely family.

21:51 Like really, really lovely family.

21:53 Yeah, yeah. Oh, gosh.

21:55 Awful. But yeah, so they were, they

21:58 moved in together. We're living together from like

22:00 early 1972, I think it was. It was late 71 that they met.

22:03 By 72 they were living together and then married in 1973.

22:08 Very interestingly, just before they got married, there was a

22:11 fairly intense conversation that Robert didn't want to have

22:15 children. That was fairly upsetting for

22:18 Kathy, but she did agree that, you know, like their lifestyle,

22:22 it was fabulous, you know, and that they could do a lot of

22:25 things. And I think, I don't know, she

22:27 thought that maybe maybe he'd eventually change his mind to

22:29 like a mature and I don't. Know she.

22:34 I don't. I don't know.

22:35 He says that he didn't want to have children because he didn't

22:38 want anyone to turn out like him.

22:40 Which he's he's made good. Yeah, absolutely.

22:43 But he. So he recognizes that there's

22:45 something in himself that's not quite right.

22:47 Yeah, unfortunately, she did fall pregnant at one point.

22:51 And he. Oh, this just breaks me.

22:53 But he forced her to have an abortion.

22:57 And friends say that that changed her.

23:02 Yeah. Like, that changed her to her

23:04 core. Now I.

23:06 Think it showed his true colours came out then.

23:08 Absolutely. Because you think, OK, you

23:11 would. Do you know if you've agreed as

23:13 a couple not to have a child? OK, that's one thing.

23:16 But it's not even like when she fell pregnant.

23:19 Takes two people to to make a baby.

23:21 Yeah, when she fell pregnant, it wasn't even like there was a

23:25 discussion or it was just Bob was like, Nope, you've got to

23:28 get an abortion. And I mean, he was a nasty prick

23:33 sometimes. Like you can see the.

23:35 Yeah, it was. AI don't think, and she was such

23:39 a sweet and probably quite passive person, Yeah, but she

23:45 probably couldn't stand up to him.

23:46 Oh, no. Well, have you watched All Good

23:48 Things, the movie The Andrew Jackie?

23:49 Yeah, yeah. So and so in that movie, there's

23:52 a scene where it's. Her dance plays her.

23:55 Yeah. So there's a party that they're

23:57 celebrating Kathy that she's going in the movie.

23:59 I think it's, I can't remember the name Catherine.

24:01 I think, I don't know whatever they named her in the movie, but

24:04 yeah, so the party's about her going off to do her PhD And so.

24:11 But in the movie, they depict Robert Durst as, you know,

24:14 cracking it. He wants to leave the party and

24:16 he grabs her like by the hair and pulls her out of the party.

24:19 Now, that scene originated. It was from the parents and the

24:22 family and everyone. They witnessed that occurring.

24:25 Now, Fast forward many, many years where Robert Durst is

24:28 sitting down with Andrew directly, the director of that

24:30 movie. And they did, like, a director's

24:33 cut kind of thing where Robert Durst sat there and they

24:35 commentated on the movie. And Andrew Durecki is quoted as

24:39 saying, you know, that he was feeling very uncomfortable about

24:41 getting to that scene. As to how he would react to

24:43 that. I mean, you would expect someone

24:45 to say, well, that's not how that happened.

24:47 You know, that's the family's perspective, but that's not

24:49 actually how that happened. And, you know, explain it away.

24:52 And they got to that scene and watched it.

24:55 And he turned to Andrew Durecki and kind of went, oh, well, some

24:58 people say I grabbed her by the hair.

24:59 Some people say I pulled a chunk of her hair out.

25:01 Either way, that's what happened.

25:05 Like, it's so he was, he was clearly violent with her, you

25:08 know, in public. But like, back to that.

25:10 OK, so that's what he's doing in front of her family?

25:13 Yeah, No less. Yeah.

25:14 Imagine what was happening behind.

25:16 Exactly. Yeah, that's what I think Andrew

25:18 directly even at that in that moment kind of went, oh, whoa.

25:20 Like he's not denying that this is the behaviours that he would

25:24 do, you know, that clearly this is even more than just that one

25:28 moment that's not just happened on its own.

25:31 I mean, other people have commented that they saw Kathy

25:34 with, you know, cuts, bruises, etcetera, looking quite

25:38 dishevelled at times. She'd attended an Ed at some

25:41 point, actually at multiple time points during their marriage,

25:45 more towards the end of them their marriage where she'd

25:50 attended Ed with like cuts and bruises, confusions on her face,

25:54 like just she he was obviously abusing her physically and.

26:02 But then also financially and immediately.

26:04 Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you know, he held all the

26:08 power, if you think about it in that respect.

26:10 He held the physical power in the relationship.

26:13 He held the financial power. Yeah.

26:15 And, you know, it got to the point where Kathy had kind of

26:19 had enough. Yeah.

26:20 So she she was basically upfront and that she wanted to leave the

26:22 marriage. That was not working.

26:24 Yeah, so she just thought legal. Yeah, she thought legal advice,

26:27 Yeah. But so in the end, what

26:29 basically for her was, you know, that she was doing, studying,

26:32 you know, to be a doctor. She was gonna come up, wanted to

26:33 become a pediatrician. I mean, there's good money in

26:35 that. She was going to be OK in terms

26:36 of her career. She needs to finish out

26:39 obviously doing that. So what she all she really

26:41 wanted from him was she was asking for of his $65 million

26:46 basically that he had was $250,000 to walk away from the

26:51 marriage. Yeah, he wouldn't give that to

26:54 her. No, which I just think you

26:56 fucking fucking serious. Like that's the.

26:59 Point where? So Robert Durst, obviously he

27:02 had just ongoing legal counsel for whatever.

27:06 And it got to the point where their lawyers were even arguing

27:09 over like, different pieces of furniture and stuff like that

27:12 because so it actually, you know, it progressed in terms of

27:15 the mediation of and division of goods.

27:19 They were quite far down the path.

27:21 Although official divorce proceedings hadn't commenced

27:24 yet. Yeah.

27:26 He actually at the point of their divorce didn't have that

27:29 65,000,000 yet, but he had, he had Open Access though to the

27:33 family's funds, yes. So he actually potentially had

27:36 way more than 65,000,000. So endless amounts of money he

27:39 had. He literally, he had almost

27:41 endless amounts of money and he just did not want to give her a

27:45 fucking dime. No, she'd been with him for,

27:47 what, 10 years or so at this point?

27:51 Three months of finishing, about 3 months of finishing medical

27:55 school. So she was doing rounds at this

27:57 time. And, you know, all of her

27:59 professors and her classmates who were going through medical

28:03 school with her said she was an incredible doctor.

28:06 Yeah. Although she hadn't graduated

28:08 yet, but she was well on her way to becoming one.

28:11 She was empathetic, she was kind, she was compassionate.

28:14 She was incredibly knowledgeable.

28:15 And she was sort of like, top of their class.

28:18 I think she was doing so, so well.

28:20 Yeah. Yeah.

28:21 She wasn't just making it. She was really good.

28:24 Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

28:25 And she was, I guess a mature age student at that time too.

28:28 So she had some life experience under her belt which would have

28:31 helped things as well, potentially.

28:33 Yeah. And I think I did hear one of

28:35 her classmates say she was kind of a little bit like a like held

28:38 a bit of a motherly or an older sister.

28:40 Yeah. Kind of a vibe within their

28:41 group. Yeah.

28:42 And, you know, was a somebody that that her classmates would

28:46 go to for advice and that kind of thing.

28:48 So again, that goes to show the type of person that she that she

28:52 was. Yeah.

28:54 On the 31st of January in 1982, Kathy disappeared.

28:58 Yeah. And she has never been seen

29:00 again since. She had planned to meet Robert

29:05 at the. Well, this is OK Let's go from

29:08 Robert's perspective. Yeah, he says that he dropped

29:13 her at a train station to. So they were living in Scarsdale

29:17 at the time, which was a train ride into Manhattan, where she

29:20 was doing her rounds, doing her final rounds.

29:24 And they had a an apartment in Salem, NY, which was, I think

29:30 not far from Manhattan. So she was going in to do her

29:34 rounds. She'd stay at their apartment in

29:35 Salem and go to the hospital from there.

29:38 Yeah, Robert says that he dropped her at the train station

29:42 so she could go to their apartment at Salem and never

29:46 seen her again. Yeah, basically.

29:48 Yeah, supposedly there were witnesses who saw her in Salem,

29:52 in at the apartment building. Supposedly seemed to have

29:56 changed their stories since. Yes.

29:57 So the doorman, well originally the doorman said no, I didn't

30:02 see her. Then, conveniently, he said, oh,

30:05 actually no, I did. And now says he didn't.

30:08 Now he says he didn't. And the other one, the other

30:10 witness of seeing her, also not seeing her was a phone call that

30:14 supposedly Kathy rang her university, Albert Einstein

30:18 University, where her medical school was to say that she was

30:21 feeling unwell and would and wouldn't be in that day.

30:25 Now the the fact of the matter is that medical school is so

30:29 hard to get into and you work your arse off that the opinion

30:32 of the professor at the time was that you would be vomiting next

30:37 to that round that table before you would leave and or not show

30:42 up for this. It's like it is you just don't

30:45 not rock up. You need to be violently I'll to

30:48 not turn up whereas she rang in just going I've got a bit of a

30:51 stomach bug and I'm so I won't be in today.

30:53 Now he takes at face value that this phone call, a female voice

30:57 ringing and saying I'm Kathy is Kathy.

31:00 I think it's been noted since that the terminology that was

31:07 used. So specifically the person who

31:10 rang and spoke to the professor. 22 weird things here.

31:12 Yeah, the first thing was that she rang and spoke to the

31:16 university, not to the hospital. Like the person in charge of the

31:19 rounds at the hospital, which they said at the time that was a

31:22 bit weird. Like, you would think she would

31:23 ring her supervisor at the hospital as opposed to ringing

31:27 the Dean of medicine at the university, even though they

31:31 knew she was rounding. So anyway, that was a bit odd.

31:35 Yeah. The other thing is that the

31:38 specificity of the what the person said, not one person has

31:43 agreed that Kathy spoke in that way.

31:46 Right. So the person said I have.

31:49 And these. This is verbatim.

31:50 Yeah. Gastrointestinal discomfort.

31:53 Yeah. And everyone has said Kathy

31:57 would never have said that. She didn't talk like that.

31:59 Yeah, right. If she had an upset stomach, she

32:01 would have said I have enough. Like it would have been more

32:04 delicate. Not Yeah, I have

32:06 gastrointestinal discomfort. Yeah.

32:09 And also and a headache. That was the other thing.

32:12 Yeah. And they're like more pop up.

32:13 Fucking Panadol. Yeah.

32:14 Which is what? Anyone else would have done like

32:16 literally they would have had, you know, a very high

32:19 temperature and as I say, vomiting literally violently and

32:22 still being in there like it's you just didn't not rock up.

32:25 Yeah. That's so, yeah.

32:27 And that and Kathy had not missed a day since prior to

32:30 that. Like this.

32:30 Yeah. So no record of her going.

32:32 You know, I have a headache. I'm not coming in.

32:34 It's just not what you did. And then she didn't rock up for

32:37 the rest of the week. Yeah.

32:39 And never, never, never saw her again.

32:40 Never. So, yeah.

32:42 So basically we've got a story of that she got on a train

32:44 coming, came into the city and that Robert just never saw her

32:47 again from the train station, whereas we have question marks

32:51 as to whether or not she ever got on that train.

32:53 Yeah, yeah. I mean, this is back in, you

32:57 know, it's in the 80s. We don't have the CCTV we have

32:59 now. We don't have the phone tracking

33:01 we have now. There's no like it's really hard

33:03 to prove anything. Yeah.

33:05 And also because of the the way that this plays out over the

33:08 next, what, 40 years, the passage of time doesn't help

33:14 either when investigating these things.

33:17 So. No.

33:18 You know, and we know we can't take on face value what Robert

33:22 says. And then you're relying on

33:25 witness testimony that is potentially quite old.

33:30 Yeah. So Robert decided back.

33:33 So this is back in I think it was like 5 days or so after she.

33:36 Went took him a fair bit so friends and stuff were saying

33:39 like where is she? What I haven't seen her like

33:40 they were all I think they were actually reporting her missing

33:43 like even to that to that degree going this is so not right.

33:47 And they've The thing is, they'd also been they all knew that

33:50 this relationship with Robert was not good and that there was

33:53 physical violence. So they were all very worried.

33:55 They'd already been conversations from Kathy saying

33:59 things like if something happens to me, it's Robert.

34:02 Like they all were very her friends, her family were all

34:05 very aware. So they were already reporting

34:08 to police going no where is she, where is she?

34:10 They were very concerned, but it took him like a week, I think,

34:13 to report her missing. It was not an immediate thing by

34:17 any means that he reported her missing.

34:20 And he fronted up to the police station because he somebody told

34:23 him he had to report her missing in person.

34:25 Yeah, he fronted up there and basically said, well, I haven't

34:28 seen her, but, you know, we haven't been talking much.

34:31 And it's not unusual for her not to call me and for me not to

34:34 call her. So basically, do with that what

34:36 you will whenever. But he felt like he had to do

34:38 something because everyone's at him about it.

34:40 They're all at me. Yeah, I'll get him off my back.

34:43 I'll just wander in there and not be helpful to the police.

34:46 Well, and not be helpful to that his whole family were very

34:50 unhelpful in respect. I mean, you would think of

34:52 family with that kind of standing in the community and

34:55 that, you know, and everything and wealth that to have a family

34:58 member, which she was, she was still married to him.

35:00 That you would think that they'd be everyone on the lookout

35:03 wanting to find this woman. Like, you know, every every

35:06 police officer is being paid to be to.

35:10 Absolutely. But they had so much influence.

35:11 Actually went the other way. Yeah.

35:13 The degree of like. So their house in Scarsdale was

35:15 never searched. Neither was the place in Salem.

35:18 I don't believe, no. Oh no, the place in Salem was

35:21 eventually searched and they. Actually eventually searched,

35:24 but like, sorry, years of years down the track, yeah.

35:26 Friends went to the apartment in Salem, Yes, and found that

35:31 Kathy's possessions had been thrown down.

35:34 No, sorry, sorry. No, no, no, no.

35:35 It was the Superintendent of the building.

35:38 He was going, not going through the trash, but he was like,

35:41 emptying or taking bins out or something.

35:44 And he noticed all of these personal items, like in the

35:48 rubbish chute bins. And yeah, and it was all turned

35:53 out. It was all Kathy's possessions,

35:55 like all of them. So this was kind of there was a

36:00 little bit of a ramp up in the media around this happening.

36:03 And this is kind of where I guess publicly we meet Susan

36:06 Berman really in terms of link to Robert Durst, they've been

36:10 friends for many, many years already.

36:12 They met in university. And so, but he points basically

36:16 Susan Berman as the official spokesperson for the family in

36:20 regards to Kathy's disappearance.

36:22 She announces a $100,000 reward that Robert has personally,

36:27 personally put up from his own estate.

36:29 Yeah, that then very quickly got reduced to $15,000.

36:34 Yeah. What the hell?

36:35 It's insane. You're a billionaire, Yeah.

36:38 And your wife has gone missing. Even $100,000, that's pretty

36:43 inadequate to me. Ridiculous.

36:45 That's not enough. I mean, we're talking. $15,000

36:48 yes. How fucking insulting.

36:50 To reduce it like I just you would increase it when you

36:53 haven't got news. Like he reduced it when people

36:56 started like actually looking for things.

36:58 He went Oh no, no, no, no shit, I don't.

37:00 Know we don't want. This, we don't want anyone

37:02 finding anything. I mean, yeah, I mean, red flags

37:05 all over the show. So just to Susan Berman, just

37:08 who she was basically, she was the daughter of a of a known

37:12 gangster who owned part owned a casino in Las Vegas and was an

37:19 author and she. Was an author not a very good or

37:22 successful author? Yeah, yeah.

37:25 So she wrote a book about being raised by, you know, a gangster

37:30 mobster. Yeah.

37:31 Who her dad did pass away and so did her mum.

37:34 So Robert Dess and her had bonded over that fact of like

37:37 that they both had lost their mums at quite young ages and

37:40 that they're, well, her dad and his dad were very interesting

37:44 people. Yeah.

37:45 But then didn't really weren't really parts of their lives in

37:47 different ways. And she lost her dad as well,

37:49 although she loved her dad and like to the to odd degree,

37:52 almost like she was. I think they're proud of the

37:55 fact that he was a mobster. And yeah.

37:57 Yeah, some of the interviews where she talks about him, it's,

37:59 it's a bit, it's a bit off actually, really.

38:01 Odd, isn't it? Yeah.

38:03 She was an orphan by the time she was 12.

38:05 So then I sort of think as well, the trauma that she has suffered

38:09 at such a critical age. Yeah.

38:11 Like, obviously that's further informed her life and how that

38:16 kind of went along. But so her dad would have been

38:19 very, very well off not being, I think it was a 50% owner in a

38:23 casino. Yeah.

38:25 But then did she never get any of that money because she was

38:28 certainly not well off? Probably like was it probably a

38:32 crime like so I dare say it probably wasn't any money as

38:35 much as he the. Casinos are legit?

38:37 Or was that an illegitimate casino?

38:39 Dare say. There was a bit of money being

38:40 laundered towards. Yeah.

38:42 I don't know. How do you separate the two?

38:43 Yeah, they call. Yeah.

38:44 I don't know. I'm not sure where that all.

38:46 Yeah, it's really hard to know. But she's certainly.

38:48 Yeah. No, she certainly struggled.

38:50 And I think, you know, obviously Robert, Robert helped her out

38:53 financially. There's no question about that.

38:55 I mean, that's fairly public that she's that, you know,

38:57 regularly he gave her money. But yeah, so she wasn't living a

39:02 very high life or anything. Their relationship is described

39:06 as being like best friends and I there's from.

39:12 I mean, I don't think they had a sexual relationship.

39:14 I think I genuinely think it was almost like a brotherly sister.

39:19 Well. Even at this point when my

39:21 thing, when Kathy went missing, he was actually dating Mia

39:25 Farrow's sister. Yes, Yeah, yeah.

39:28 Like, yeah. And like, didn't absolutely in

39:31 love with her. Yeah, yeah, Yeah.

39:34 So they were so close that Robert Durst actually walked

39:38 Susan Berman down the aisle when she got married.

39:42 They were. Yeah.

39:43 It just goes to show they were they were very involved in one

39:46 another's lives. But it was, it was a, it was a

39:48 platonic friendship. Yeah, but that lasted.

39:51 Yeah. And very loyal friendship, I

39:53 dare say. Yes, Yes.

39:56 She, as you said, she got money from him.

40:00 She borrowed money that was never paid back.

40:02 And yeah, and it was never a contentious issue within their

40:05 friendship, I don't think like. Not well, I mean this stupid

40:07 amount of money that he had like to you know, throw 50 to 50

40:11 grand to someone issue for. Kathy for him and Kathy, but it

40:14 wasn't an issue for him and Susan.

40:15 No, but yeah, again, it's a very different relationship.

40:17 Isn't it very? Yeah.

40:19 It's what he's getting out of that and what she's getting out

40:21 of that and the. Control of it all to he didn't

40:23 need to control. No, he didn't need, he didn't

40:26 need to control Susan because she was loyal to the NTH degree

40:30 and that was what her lifestyle growing up, you know, that's

40:34 what her parents relationship was.

40:36 He picked someone very much who was going to stick by him.

40:39 I mean, that's how well she lived.

40:41 She was. Vulnerable, and he found

40:44 security and solace in the friendship with Robert Durst.

40:49 The money couldn't have heard either.

40:51 Oh God, no, no, I mean, I'm sure that talked for, you know, that

40:54 was. I can't.

40:55 I can't imagine he would have had any relationships with

40:59 anyone if he wasn't. If he wasn't healthy rich, well

41:02 that or if he wasn't benefiting from it in some way, whether

41:05 that be, you know, that, that I don't know, that he just feeds

41:08 off people in terms of that, doesn't he?

41:10 He's the weirdest little dude. Oh God, yeah, yeah, I'm weird.

41:14 I I have like watching like the jinx.

41:18 It cracks me up some of those the the tapes and stuff.

41:21 They're recorded, particularly in the second series where he's

41:24 older again. And it was funny.

41:26 I was watching that with and my younger, my oldest came

41:28 downstairs, you know, and like, you know, oh God, you know, have

41:30 to do that quite often with them pause.

41:32 Oh my God, don't let them watch these sorts of things that I

41:34 watch. And but as I went to hit pause,

41:36 it was him answering one of the calls with Bob.

41:41 He absolutely lost. And I had to rewind and replay

41:43 just that section from over everything because he was

41:45 absolutely wetting himself going who is this guy?

41:47 I know so. Last night I was telling Peter

41:50 about this and I said, I'm like this just it's been replaying in

41:54 my head all night where he rings like he rings his own voicemail

41:58 service, which we will get to in a minute because that is

42:00 actually a pivotal point in the in the story.

42:02 But he rings his own for answering service.

42:05 And it's like you have reached the mailbox of Bob.

42:11 It's so funny. And I love that because there's

42:13 these twins in that second one that they are like gold.

42:17 Yeah. And so they're, they do all like

42:19 the the shit kicker job basically for the for the

42:21 prosecution baby lawyer. I love it.

42:23 Like, oh God, I hope they never change these twins.

42:26 And they just like when we needed a little bit of a, you

42:28 know, pick me up on, like to try and get through some hard

42:30 nights, we'd sit through and listen to the tapes because they

42:33 just love listening to Bob's conversations and stuff.

42:36 And they're like Bob. Bob, he's a bloody widow.

42:40 But he's very weird. Very, very, very strange, dude.

42:43 Very, very strange. So at the moment, we'll just

42:46 keep moving through the timeline because we'll come back to Susan

42:48 Berman. Oh, we will absolutely come back

42:50 to. Susan So at this point,

42:52 obviously Kathy's missing. No one's looking for her.

42:54 It's been squashed in the media really by by the the Durst

42:57 family, the Mccormick's, Kathy's family are desperate to try and

43:01 find her and keep trying and keep trying.

43:02 But no, no one is helping. In 1988, Bob meets a person by

43:08 the name of Deborah Lee Sheraton, who eventually becomes

43:11 his second wife. She's a very interesting.

43:15 Character. So if you guys want to know more

43:18 about her and her just general demeanor, go and watch the

43:21 deposition tapes that she has done, like when this goes to

43:25 trial or prior to this going to trial.

43:29 She's a very, very interesting woman.

43:32 Oh yeah, she ran her own. She was like one of the she

43:35 started her own female only Realty company in New York, did

43:38 very well for herself for that. It was a market that was needed

43:42 at the time. She really got onto it in the

43:43 80s where like, you know, girl boss was really sort of kicking

43:46 off and, you know, so you go to an all female Realty company and

43:50 have, you know, that that feminine touch to buy your

43:53 Realty. Yeah.

43:55 So she but apparently she was a total piece of shit and she was

43:59 asshole. Yeah.

43:59 So people who worked for her, like they ended up suing her and

44:02 stuff because she was just all she was, you know, yeah, taking

44:06 money off people that she shouldn't have all sorts of

44:07 things. So she's much of a piece of

44:09 shit, I think, as Robert Guest, but oddly with their very odd

44:13 relationship. So they got married.

44:17 And even in her deposition, she talks about the way that they

44:20 got married. Was they got married because he

44:22 asked her. Yeah.

44:23 I've, I've literally written down that quote.

44:25 He the the prosecutor says to her, why did you marry Mr.

44:28 Durst? And she goes like literally

44:31 breathe into them because he asked like it was just asking.

44:35 Yeah, just no. Yeah, yeah.

44:37 Oh, yeah. If just some rando comes up and

44:39 says, do you want to marry? Yeah, sure.

44:41 Yeah, but this marriage of convenience, absolutely, very

44:45 much so because I think it was within a day or so of their

44:50 marriage. So literally they've gone to,

44:53 they haven't gone had a wedding. There's not a wedding.

44:55 They got married as in. Well, a rabbi married them.

45:00 Yeah, in a well at a place designated by the rabbi.

45:04 Like it's just like a not even a hotel room.

45:07 It was like an office. Building an office or some sort

45:09 like they weren't there wasn't a wedding.

45:10 There was a there was the witnesses they needed.

45:11 There was that's all that was there Yeah.

45:13 And she? Was wearing like a yellow suit.

45:15 Like it's not. There was nothing wedding

45:17 either. It wasn't, it wasn't a marriage

45:19 for love, that is for sure. And I think, and she will, she

45:21 says that. Yeah, out outright.

45:23 Yeah. They don't even kiss when they

45:25 get married. Have you seen the video?

45:27 No, because at the end of the day they got married.

45:29 Because then spousal privilege privilege applies because they

45:33 knew each new stuff about each other that then they couldn't be

45:36 asked about in court. Very interestingly, they got

45:39 married on the 11th of December in 2000.

45:41 And what happened on the 12th of December 2000?

45:45 What? So they got married literally a

45:47 day before she. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

45:50 She. So they got married the day

45:52 before. Yes, sorry.

45:53 She was then going to be, what's the word deposed.

45:57 Yeah, yeah, that's sorry. Yes, yes.

45:59 So oh, that timing's quite curious, isn't it?

46:03 But the thing that applied then was the fact that anything that

46:09 she knew prior to them actually getting married was admissible.

46:15 Yes. Anything after that, which was

46:20 like a day, a day or two, I don't know if it was exactly the

46:22 12th, but it was very close to when they got married.

46:26 Anything post that? OK, Yes, spousal, spousal

46:30 privilege applies. Yeah.

46:32 Right. Yes, that's correct.

46:34 Yeah. So OK, what was the point in

46:39 that then? I don't know, like it's so

46:44 bizarre. Like they, well, they know.

46:46 They know what they were doing. They knew what they were doing

46:48 legally. Yeah, 100%.

46:51 She was basically an adverse witness, so she, on advice of

46:56 counsel, didn't answer a lot of questions.

46:59 Any questions she did answer, she forgot a lot of things.

47:02 Yeah, she didn't answer questions wholly.

47:07 So she would give part information.

47:10 She threw things off in certain in the way she answered certain

47:13 things. It contradicted all the

47:16 testimony that either she had already given or that Robert or

47:21 Bob had already given. Yeah, she called him Bobby.

47:24 Which, yuck. So did Susan Berman.

47:27 I know so because going back to her slightly at this time, this

47:32 is when basically the they started opening up Kathy's case

47:36 again, like in 1999. And So what Bobby knew was that

47:42 someone was going to spill the beans.

47:44 There was like talk that the cops were going to beat with

47:47 someone and talk with them who was going to give some really

47:49 strong evidence. And Robert just knew that was

47:53 Susan Berman. So that's.

47:56 That's just playing background. Yeah.

47:57 OK. So this is bringing that back

47:59 down to background to Susan Berman.

48:01 Right. So Susan Berman was found dead

48:08 in her home in Benedict Canyon in LA in December of 2000,

48:12 right? This happened, I think it was

48:16 five days after the LA County PD have come out and said that they

48:24 are sorry. The New York City PD Sorry Sorry

48:28 came out and said they are going to reinvestigate the death or

48:33 suspected death of Kathy McCormick Durst.

48:38 Yeah. The only person who Bob could

48:42 think of that they, because I think they openly said in that

48:48 press conference, we have witnesses who are now willing to

48:51 come forward. Yeah.

48:52 The only thing that he's thinking is, Oh my God, Susan

48:55 Berman's the only one who knows anything about it because she's

48:57 fucking the one who rang the Dean of Medicine at bloody

49:01 Albert Einstein University. She knows about him, she knows

49:03 everything about him and to this point has been loyal.

49:07 Yeah, she's been loyal, but he's also like.

49:09 Been police given her money. Yeah, she's, he's paid her like.

49:13 Well, even. Just of money.

49:14 At the SO in August of 2000, he paid her two checks worth 25

49:18 grand. But she also he also had given

49:21 her a check for $300,000. Yeah, 15 years before, yes.

49:25 Yeah. But so still, though, he's still

49:26 paying her money right up, right up to this point.

49:28 So, you know, this is so December 11, he's got married to

49:31 this, you know, Sheridan, she he's on 20.

49:34 On December 19, he flies to San Francisco, so California, but

49:39 San Francisco. Susan Berman lives in LA, so

49:42 yeah, long distance between and this is where it kind of gets.

49:45 It's a drivable. Disk it's a totally drivable

49:47 just done it just just. Real quick, Yeah.

49:51 He turned. He Sorry.

49:53 He rocks up to the airport on that day.

49:55 Yeah. 10:00 PM at night. Yeah.

49:57 Books a red eye flight and flies.

50:00 He has a few things to note here.

50:02 He's never flown red eye before and he's been quoted as saying I

50:06 never fly red eye. He always plans his travel in

50:09 advance. He's got a travel person who

50:11 works, I guess for him who organizes all that for him.

50:14 He literally rocked up at the airport and bought the ticket at

50:17 the time. Yeah, which he just doesn't.

50:18 In his own name, Buckwit, Right? So we keep.

50:23 Going Yeah. So yeah, basically.

50:25 So on December 23rd though, well actually December 24th, Susan

50:29 Berman's body is found in her house in LA in Beverly Hills.

50:34 A note at that time is also sent to the Police Department.

50:38 Addressed to addressed to the Beverly Hills Police Department

50:42 with one word of cadaver. Cadaver.

50:45 Yeah, yeah. It just and the address of the

50:48 address Susan Berman's house, so it's.

50:54 Yeah. So basically the the envelope

50:57 that he's posted, so he #1 he has posted this envelope.

51:01 It has a stamp on it, and the stamp is interesting, but all

51:07 that it is addressed to is Beverly Beverley.

51:13 That's not actually how you spell Beverly.

51:15 There is no E in it at the end. Beverly Hills police.

51:19 Yeah. They received this letter.

51:22 I think it takes a day, like it's postmarked a day later when

51:25 they receive it. Yeah.

51:27 They open up the letter and all it says is what is it 15

51:30 something Benedict Canyon Rd. or Benedict Canyon something

51:36 cadaver. So the police then go fuck, we

51:39 need to go to this address and see what's going on.

51:41 At least investigate it. It's weird they arrive there,

51:46 but also in the interim Susan Berman's neighbour suspects

51:52 something's going on because she finds her dogs in the in the and

51:56 apparently that is a quite a busy Rd.

51:58 Yeah. Right.

51:58 And she finds the dogs in, like, on the street and thinks, oh,

52:01 that's really bloody weird. And she goes to take the dogs

52:03 back inside and she notices that Susan's back door is open.

52:07 She never left her door open. Yeah, but the the neighbour

52:10 didn't know her well enough to, like, go inside or anything like

52:13 that. So she's taking the dogs in and

52:15 then the next day she's like, I still haven't seen Susan.

52:18 That's really weird. And I think she reported it to

52:20 the police. She's already reported it too,

52:22 yeah. So they had a couple of I don't

52:24 even know if those two pieces of information ended up coming

52:27 together, but they've acted on that anyway and gone and found

52:32 her deceased in her. I think she was in her kitchen.

52:35 I. Think her bedroom was where the

52:37 body was? Yeah, but she but it was very

52:39 much an execution ish style. It was very it was just one

52:42 gunshot to the head. Point blank range back of her

52:45 head. So what they what's inferred by

52:47 that, by the prosecution once this eventually all comes out,

52:52 is that she was comfortable with the person.

52:55 Yeah, there's no. Executed her because she's

52:57 turned her back to them. Yeah, if if she was feeling

52:59 threatened there is no way she would have turned and walked no

53:02 back to the person. And there was no forced entry.

53:05 It was, yeah, she'd let this person in potentially.

53:08 Or. Yeah.

53:09 Or they arrived before her, like, because Robert did have a

53:12 key. Yeah.

53:15 Yes, he was paying the rent on that house, I think.

53:17 Yeah. So basically so that's that's

53:20 occurred and this sort of ramps up quite quickly with because I

53:22 mean he's linked to her very much so anyway, but to escape

53:25 any media attention in April of the following year of 2001, he

53:30 moves to Galveston, TX where he. God this is so fucking.

53:37 Weird, he dresses as a woman who is a mute.

53:43 Well, because he couldn't disguise his voice, he said he

53:45 couldn't do a woman's voice because he does have quite a

53:49 deep voice. Like he's very, it's very, very

53:52 hot. Like it's a it's his voice is

53:54 weird but I can imagine he couldn't make it feminine.

53:57 No, but anyway, so he doesn't dress as a woman like well

54:02 either. Like I don't it's I think it's

54:05 come out later on like everyone knew it wasn't really a woman.

54:08 Yeah, like it was just. But I think people kind of took

54:11 it as, OK, maybe he's like exploring dressing as a woman

54:15 potentially. And I mean, if he is actually

54:19 mute, I don't know. People aren't approaching you

54:22 and talking to you. Are they really talking to you

54:24 about it? Which is what he wanted.

54:25 So he he went by the name of Dorothy Signer.

54:28 So he's gone to Galveston. He's rented a shit apartment.

54:32 Oh, it's horrible. For somebody who is so well off,

54:35 he obviously wanted to be flying under the radar because this

54:38 apt, I mean, it looked. Have you seen?

54:40 Photos. Oh yeah.

54:41 It looks filthy. Oh yuck.

54:43 It's disgusting and it's not really shit.

54:46 Part of the. Oh, it's bad.

54:47 It's. In the ghetto.

54:49 Oh, yeah, yeah. It's not a nice this area at

54:51 all. He was very much in hiding.

54:54 Like he's very clearly hiding. Yeah.

54:56 So yeah. So.

54:58 And by September 30th on in 2001 a family is fishing in Galveston

55:05 and discover a dismembered torso floating just off the beach when

55:12 police go and find pull it out but they also then find other

55:15 body parts. Washed in plastic.

55:17 Bags wrapped in plastic bags. It's really horrible.

55:20 So they find every part of the body except for the head.

55:24 So all arms and legs and the torso are found in that it the

55:28 body parts were wrapped in garbage bags, like legit like

55:31 garbage bags. And then there were other items

55:33 in those bags. In one of the bags they happened

55:36 to find like a newspaper that had an address on it of where

55:39 that newspaper had been delivered to.

55:41 Lo and behold, they go to that address and find that the there

55:46 was a guy living there by the name of Morris Black.

55:48 And next door neighbor is this female mute.

55:52 Dorothy. Sign up So they've then find

55:55 discover very quickly discover that that's Robert Durst this

55:59 person. They said this person was due to

56:02 pick up some glasses at A at somewhere.

56:05 So they were like, well, if this person rocks up, we'll come down

56:08 and meet them. So they got the, the optometrist

56:11 to send them a bit of a message if if this person did rock up to

56:14 actually pick their glasses up and lo and behold, probably

56:17 test. Well, Dorothy turns off to

56:20 collect the glasses and so they get onto the phone and contact

56:24 the police and down they come and have a chat to discover that

56:27 it's Robert Durst that is wanted, wanted, wanted to be

56:33 spoken to on a number of things. So God.

56:36 So then they pull it by pulling me in the Fred chat and

56:38 everything. And I love that they've, they

56:40 basically fairly quickly, you know, arrest him for this.

56:44 So they, they put up a $250,000 bond, which at this time they

56:49 don't actually realize who Robert Durst is.

56:51 I mean, New York to Galveston in Texas, they don't know who this

56:54 is. Like they don't put that

56:55 together yet. They just know that this is a

56:58 person. And they're looking okay.

56:59 They're looking at where he's living, and they're like, yeah,

57:01 he lives in an absolute dive. Yeah, his clothes were really

57:05 gross and grotty. And he's dressing as a woman.

57:07 And he was dressing as a woman, like things are all a bit.

57:09 It's a bit. Strange here, but they're like,

57:11 you've posted bail after you have 20 thousand $250,000 and he

57:15 goes not on me and they're like fuck whatever.

57:20 He posts the bail, of course, because he's got access to

57:24 endless money and he's amounts money.

57:26 Actually. What's probably worth noting is

57:27 now, YEAH, is that in the 90s, Douglas took over the business

57:32 because obviously Robert was not, yeah, equipped to be able

57:36 to. Which he was so pissed.

57:37 About He did not like that, even though he didn't really want it.

57:40 He wanted the money, he wanted the notoriety, and he wanted all

57:43 of that. So he ended up suing the Durst

57:46 organization, Yes. And in 2006 they settled for oh,

57:51 no, sorry. Was that in 2006 or in 2000?

57:53 In the 90s, I can't remember. I think it was in the 90s, they

57:57 settled for $65 million. So he did have still an

58:03 incredibly large amount of. Plenty of money.

58:05 More than he would ever need. Yeah, his brother actually said

58:09 at the end of that settlement. He's like, I just felt like he

58:12 was going to kill me. Yeah, no, he, he had done

58:14 bodyguards. He was, he hired, very scared of

58:16 him. His younger brother says the

58:18 same thing. They were very, very wary of him

58:20 and afraid of him. And yeah, no, they're not afraid

58:23 to say that. Like, yeah, that don't trust

58:25 him, no. It's on the.

58:26 Record I wouldn't either. I think they had very every

58:28 right to, but still they could have done a whole lot more.

58:32 Yeah. So anyway, so we've got he's.

58:33 Gone on the run. He's posted bail and Robert has

58:36 posted bail and he's gone on the run and.

58:38 Again, gone and got a mask. Oh, that mask is so freaky

58:42 creepy. So he's he's bought this latex

58:45 mask, which apparently they are so expensive.

58:48 I mean, again, money's no issue. Yeah, but it's actually, I mean

58:52 you look at it and I mean, have you seen the photo of it on the

58:56 table and it's all collapsed in on itself.

58:58 It looks really weird. But then when they actually put

58:59 it on a on a mannequin head, it actually.

59:02 Looks legit. Very realistic, like it's got

59:05 real hair. Yeah, he shaved all of his own

59:08 hair off, including his eyebrows.

59:10 Yeah. And I love it when he talks

59:11 about this like to Andrew Durecki Wolf.

59:13 He's going. He goes like, because he's like,

59:15 why'd you shave your eyebrows and that.

59:16 And he goes, well, then I would look like me.

59:18 That would. That's weird to do that.

59:20 You know he's trying to tell someone.

59:23 Don't you think that's weird to do that?

59:25 Yes, we all think you're weird. You're.

59:27 Really fucking weird. Oh man.

59:30 So he's actually gone on the run to Pennsylvania, ended up in

59:33 Pennsylvania. I don't know why, but that's

59:35 where he's gone. And the fucking idiot is

59:41 arrested at a like a 711 type shop.

59:45 Yeah, for shop shopping, cigarettes, chewing gum and a

59:49 chicken sandwich. The $65 million money, the

59:54 amount of money he has, and that's.

59:55 He, he even says in one of his depositions, he even says he's

59:58 like, I don't know why I did that.

59:59 That was so stupid. This is where I just go.

1:00:02 There's a real screw. Something wrong?

1:00:04 Yeah. There's something wrong here.

1:00:05 Yeah, he wanted to get caught. Like it's like, I think to be

1:00:08 honest, I think he did. I think he wanted to get caught.

1:00:10 He was like, why? Because he wants the, he wants

1:00:13 all the the people. Around.

1:00:15 Him. Yeah, he wanted all this.

1:00:17 He's he was, he was loving that court hearing.

1:00:19 He was loving all of that. Yeah, I think that was all.

1:00:23 I think, yeah, screw loose big time.

1:00:25 Massively so. So obviously now he's up for.

1:00:29 So they've they've caught him in Pennsylvania, they've figured

1:00:32 out who he is, how he ties into the murder of Morris Black.

1:00:36 Yeah. So we haven't actually spoken

1:00:38 about. Murder to him.

1:00:39 Sorry, sorry. He well he is wanted over the

1:00:44 murder of Yeah, so his story is that so Morris new stuff.

1:00:51 Yeah, well, according to Robert Durst, they were best friends,

1:00:55 neighbors and became best friends.

1:00:57 I don't know about that. I don't know about that either,

1:00:59 but by all accounts, Morris knew that he wasn't Dorothy.

1:01:03 They've. Got, I mean, yeah.

1:01:04 Yeah, they got friendly. They'd been friendly enough that

1:01:07 they. And there was evidence that

1:01:09 Morris had spent time in Durst's apartment.

1:01:11 Yes. So there were items with his DNA

1:01:14 on them, like drink cans and that kind of thing.

1:01:17 So we know they had spent time with one another.

1:01:21 In what capacity, we don't really know.

1:01:23 We've obviously only got Robert's side of the story.

1:01:26 And Morris Black, we don't know a lot about him.

1:01:29 He was the grifter. He was he he doesn't, he didn't

1:01:33 have family. He was hiding away too.

1:01:36 So he wasn't like someone who had family was missing him or

1:01:41 any of that. And like, it's sad.

1:01:44 So Bob says that he came over black found a gun in was it in

1:01:51 his chest of. Drawers or.

1:01:52 Something or in the in the bathroom drawers, I think it

1:01:54 was, or something like that. And then there was a struggle

1:01:57 over the gun. The gun went off and oh, lo and

1:01:59 behold, he was shot. Yeah, in his head.

1:02:02 Accidentally. Accidentally, yeah.

1:02:04 Interesting that the head. Interesting that the head never

1:02:07 showed up again. Yeah, that's very interesting.

1:02:10 So the police can't say, you know, angle of bullet, whether

1:02:15 it was another execution style murder?

1:02:17 Yeah, they can't tell where the. Ball went through and.

1:02:19 To this day, his the head's never been found, no.

1:02:20 And to be honest, like that bit of evidence that the head is the

1:02:23 biggest bit of evidence that would prove probably what went

1:02:26 on. Yeah.

1:02:26 So what's basically been spoken about too, is that when all

1:02:28 these bags and everything have come up to into the shore, you

1:02:32 can see on the bags where the ones particularly being ripped

1:02:35 open. And there's a thought process of

1:02:37 that maybe as he's tried to get rid of these body parts because

1:02:42 he's admitted he's admitted to that.

1:02:43 So he admits the fact that he cut these body parts up and just

1:02:48 and disposed of them that when like maybe that happened, maybe

1:02:50 he started realizing they weren't sinking to the bottom as

1:02:52 he expected. So then he's gone.

1:02:55 Oh, crap. The head's got all the

1:02:57 information. And so he's pierced open the one

1:03:00 of the bags and pulled that out and taken it somewhere else and

1:03:05 went kind of gone. Oh yeah, those body parts can

1:03:07 that they'll rock up. And I want to work out who that

1:03:09 is. But the head that'll.

1:03:11 That'll get me identify him. Yeah, yeah.

1:03:14 Little Diddy. Like he didn't think that all

1:03:16 the other trash within those bags.

1:03:18 Yeah, that never entered attention.

1:03:19 No, I don't know. Dunno.

1:03:21 I don't know. There's that.

1:03:22 I'm happy to be caught for these things, to be really honest.

1:03:25 Yeah, I think, I mean for somebody.

1:03:27 So he's had the wherewithal to go, yeah, I need to get rid of

1:03:31 the head, but not thought to better hide the other body

1:03:34 parts. I think you're right.

1:03:36 I think that shows that he is. I think he thought he was more

1:03:40 intelligent than everyone. Else oh.

1:03:42 For sure. And that you know, I was.

1:03:43 As long as I've got this major bit, I'll be sweet.

1:03:46 Yeah. Then the rest of it, it'll come,

1:03:48 that'll sort itself out. Which in a ways, it did.

1:03:52 Yeah. He, he managed to go through

1:03:53 that trial. And I mean they, the way they

1:03:57 when they came into the apartment and they found, you

1:04:00 know, that there was blood on the floor and there was cut

1:04:02 marks in the line, the vinyl floor.

1:04:04 And then they ripped that up to find the massive amount of blood

1:04:07 underneath. I can't imagine what poo can cut

1:04:14 a body up like that. What it would take to just do

1:04:18 that. It floors me.

1:04:21 That is non human. Oh, I couldn't agree with you

1:04:24 more. And if it actually was an

1:04:28 accidental thing, you think, I mean, I know he was hiding.

1:04:32 He couldn't call the police and say.

1:04:34 But still. But maybe leave him there.

1:04:37 Leave him there and say he came to my apartment or.

1:04:40 Leave him there and fuck off. You've got the means to get out

1:04:42 of there. Yes, exactly.

1:04:44 Hide again. Hide again.

1:04:46 Go somewhere else. Yeah, he's just made.

1:04:48 Really. It's a.

1:04:48 Whole nother level of inhumane. To.

1:04:52 Cut a body up and dispose of it like it's just trash.

1:04:56 Yeah. I just, that's where I just kind

1:04:58 of go, well, no, no, there was purpose to this.

1:05:00 There was intent there. There was a change.

1:05:02 Whereas so somehow though the the jury in Galveston found him

1:05:08 not guilty of murder. And because the way that their

1:05:11 law worked, the dismembering of the body became not a problem,

1:05:18 wasn't. Well, I think because they they

1:05:20 couldn't convict him of the murder, they then there was no

1:05:24 charge that they could come to him for the dismemberment of the

1:05:28 body. I think that's changed now

1:05:29 though, because of this. Yeah, sure.

1:05:31 Like it was like, it's like interference with a corpse or

1:05:34 something like that. But yeah, there was no charge.

1:05:35 For that charge, for that at the time, yeah.

1:05:37 So he got off fucking Scott free, Yeah.

1:05:41 Insane. Insane that he got away with

1:05:45 that. So, yeah, even he says at the

1:05:48 end of that trail, he's like, I can't believe I got away with

1:05:51 that. Not in those words exactly, but

1:05:53 he admits that he thought he wouldn't get out of it.

1:05:55 Yeah, yeah. Insane.

1:05:59 Crazy, crazy. So basically, so at the end of

1:06:03 all this trial and everything is sort of where we end up, I guess

1:06:06 in with the jinx to that in the end of this the first season

1:06:10 where we get to end that first season that he's been acquitted

1:06:15 of the of killing Boris Black and kind of like you're like,

1:06:18 well, it's quite possibly he's killed another two people that

1:06:20 in this and he's also got away with this third one.

1:06:23 Holy shit, like this piece of crap he's gonna live his life

1:06:26 fancy free with with this. And we get to the end of the

1:06:30 Jinx first season and there's that little bit of audio where

1:06:35 the they've finished filming for the day and talking to him and

1:06:38 putting to him about. There was one little bit of

1:06:40 evidence they've put to him was the the cadaver note matching up

1:06:43 that with another letter that he had sent to Susan Berman and

1:06:48 matching up that he misspelt Beverly on another envelope, as

1:06:53 well as the cadaver note, which is gem of little, you know,

1:06:57 little bit of snippet that it kind of put him on the spot and

1:06:59 go, hey, we think we might have here a bit that, but I mean like

1:07:03 handwriting. Experts like it looks.

1:07:05 Identical, but it's written. It's written the same address,

1:07:08 1527 Benedict Canyon. Beverly Hills Beverly Hills with

1:07:13 the same spelling mistake. Yeah.

1:07:16 So. Yeah, same block letters, same

1:07:18 whatever. Yeah.

1:07:19 And then so put that to him. But they're finished filming for

1:07:21 the day and they're kind of like, what else can we do?

1:07:22 Like now we just turn it over to the cops.

1:07:24 Whatever. Do you know a full year went by?

1:07:26 Yeah, a full year went by before anyone discovered there was more

1:07:29 audio. Yeah, So what they were saying

1:07:31 is at the end of recording the Jinx.

1:07:34 So just really quickly when the movie All Good Things came out,

1:07:38 which is a a dramatized depiction of Robert Durst's

1:07:42 life. Yeah, from the family's

1:07:43 perspective, from Cathy, from. Cathy's perspective, that's

1:07:47 right, The director of that movie was directly.

1:07:51 Yeah. And when Bob saw the movie, he

1:07:56 reached out to Jarecki and, like, wanted to talk to him

1:07:59 about it. That's when they did that

1:08:01 commentary for the movie. And then Jarecki was like, oh,

1:08:04 do you reckon you might want to like, maybe we could do a

1:08:07 documentary about this if you're willing to.

1:08:09 Well, I think. Even it was even sort of less to

1:08:11 it then I'm like, let's just sit down and keep talking and see

1:08:14 what happens. He didn't really know where it

1:08:15 was going to go. Yeah.

1:08:16 He was like, I don't know what I'm going to do with this.

1:08:18 Yeah, footage this audio like, yeah.

1:08:20 What they've been able to do is create the Jinx.

1:08:23 What is it called? The the life and deaths of

1:08:25 Robert Durst. And so Jarecki, he knows

1:08:31 everything there is to know really about this.

1:08:33 So at the end of Season 1, what Jarecki says is, you know,

1:08:36 they've gotten everything out of him that they can.

1:08:38 They've asked him the difficult questions.

1:08:39 They prepped so much for this. And they've asked him the

1:08:43 question about the cadaver note and the Beverly Hills, the

1:08:46 handwriting stuff and the sound. So they've finished filming.

1:08:51 According to them, Bob says he needs to go to the toilet and

1:08:56 the audio guy takes his headphones off.

1:08:59 But Bob's still got his microphone on, so it's still hot

1:09:02 miced. It's on, but no one's actually

1:09:04 listening to anything because they've technically finished

1:09:06 they've. Finished filming, they're just

1:09:08 packing up all the equipment. Everything was getting packed

1:09:10 away, they just hadn't disconnected the mic yet.

1:09:13 Microphone. Yet.

1:09:14 Yeah. So a year later, they've got

1:09:16 someone going through the footage, like to just sort of.

1:09:19 Tie things up. Editing.

1:09:20 Yeah. Editing together the show and

1:09:23 they had one person who was sitting through listening to

1:09:25 every bit of everything to like make sure there was a snippet

1:09:27 somewhere that they couldn't use etcetera.

1:09:30 And buried in all of this, she found that that little bit of

1:09:34 audio from the at the end of that day where he says kill them

1:09:39 all, of course, like, oh. Yeah, And that was like a

1:09:44 cliffhanger that the season ended on.

1:09:46 Like, oh. Yeah, just crazy.

1:09:49 Yeah, absolutely crazy. So yeah, basically we've got

1:09:53 Morris Black, where he has been acquitted of his murder, but we

1:09:57 know we did it like. And then there's still Susan

1:10:01 Berman, who killed her, and Kathy is still missing.

1:10:06 We come back for season 2, I guess, of the Jinx.

1:10:08 Also, at this point, with all these cliffhangers of what are

1:10:11 the police gonna do with this information?

1:10:13 Turns out really none of that stuff from the Jinx really got

1:10:15 used in the ultimate trial, but it basically sparked them to

1:10:18 start investigating again and really like look into further

1:10:21 what happened to Susan Berman and the prosecutor.

1:10:25 He is brilliant, absolutely amazing.

1:10:27 I love him, such a down to earth guy, but very switched on and

1:10:31 intelligent. He knew this case inside and

1:10:33 out. If if anyone knew this case more

1:10:35 than Andrew Drecky, it was this guy.

1:10:36 Like he was so good. So they went, they go basically

1:10:40 fine enough to that they go and charge him for Susan Berman's

1:10:43 murder and they link it to her having knowledge of Kathy

1:10:48 McCormack. So at the same time as being

1:10:51 convicted, if he would, they could convict him, convict him

1:10:54 for Susan Berman's murder. It also does relate to a

1:10:58 conviction for Kathy McCormack. So they bring him in and they

1:11:04 charge him. They have to extradite him.

1:11:05 From where was he at that point? I can't remember.

1:11:08 He was in Galveston. He was still in Galveston at

1:11:09 that point, was he? Yeah.

1:11:11 Yeah. So they had to extradite him

1:11:12 from there back to New York. Sorry to California for that,

1:11:14 because it that's where Susan Berman was, was murdered and

1:11:18 they put him on trial for this, for that, for Susan Berman.

1:11:22 And that's a hell of a trial. I mean, God, and he's old at

1:11:25 this point. Well, he's not to be honest,

1:11:26 he's not that old. He's in his 70s, but he looks

1:11:30 like he's in his 90s, like he is not.

1:11:34 He looks. So unwell, yeah, I think they

1:11:37 say he's got bladder cancer. Whether that's true or not, I'm

1:11:40 not 100% sure. He was.

1:11:44 He had a catheter in for all of his court appearances.

1:11:48 He shaved his head so that you could see like you had a, what

1:11:52 do you call it, a scar? No, there was a we had a, not a

1:11:55 stent because that's what you put in your.

1:11:57 Heart. No, it is.

1:11:57 It was a stent. A stent, Yeah.

1:11:58 Oh, OK Right. Yeah.

1:11:59 So he had a stent and he's. Yeah.

1:12:01 And he shaved his head so you could see that more like.

1:12:03 Yeah, like, really. He's just a fucking weird dude,

1:12:06 Yeah. And he also wore like, really,

1:12:09 really oversized clothes to make himself look smaller and more

1:12:12 frail. Yeah, and he does.

1:12:15 He looks like if he stood up, he'd bloody snap in half.

1:12:18 Yeah, there's nothing of him. He's incredibly thin at this

1:12:21 point, and he looks so unwell, like even his mouth.

1:12:25 I think he must not be wearing dentures or something because

1:12:29 you know, that really cello look, that sunken in look that

1:12:31 people get when they don't have their dentures in.

1:12:34 Like, it really reminds me of my beautiful grandma.

1:12:37 Yeah, the odd occasion I'd see her without her teeth in and she

1:12:41 always looked so different, but it made her look so much older.

1:12:43 So much older. And so I think he's doing we.

1:12:46 Did a lot of that I think for the juries, you know, benefit

1:12:48 for sympathy, absolutely. The trial for sure.

1:12:51 And that's where, but I mean, he didn't live for long after that

1:12:54 trial though either, so. So he was convicted of Susan

1:12:57 Berman's murder in that trial. Yeah.

1:13:00 And before he was able to get to sentencing, wasn't it?

1:13:03 Yes. So he was never.

1:13:04 Sentenced. Fortunately he was never

1:13:06 sentenced. And therefore, and because he

1:13:08 passed away, similar to what we talked about with the Aaron

1:13:10 Hernandez case, yeah, that conviction disappears.

1:13:14 Yeah. Because he didn't go through the

1:13:15 appeal process. Yeah, which I think that's.

1:13:18 Bullshit. It's bullshit.

1:13:21 Yeah. So yeah, he's got away with

1:13:23 murder. He's got away with murder and he

1:13:24 and because he didn't live long enough, it's not like they they

1:13:26 were going to indict him for the murder of Kathy as well.

1:13:31 Yeah, but because he didn't live long enough, actually did they

1:13:34 indict him in the in the end, but they just never got to trial

1:13:36 civilly. Yeah, no, only civilly They've

1:13:39 Yeah, there was. So the comics still to this day

1:13:42 are fighting a civil trial, a civil case against his estate

1:13:47 for the wrongful death of Cathy. I hope they get.

1:13:50 All his money. I hope they do.

1:13:52 I know it won't make any difference.

1:13:53 No, it's not going. To be but it's not about that

1:13:55 it's not about that for the family either.

1:13:56 I know they want him just held accountable.

1:13:58 I mean I know and I fully agree with them.

1:14:02 He has used his money to this point to get away with it and he

1:14:07 shouldn't. And but the other person that I

1:14:09 mean in this is the second wife, Deborah Lee, who is now, what do

1:14:14 you call her trustee of his estate?

1:14:16 Yeah, she. Was Yeah, she was his executor

1:14:18 and sole beneficiary of his estate.

1:14:20 She knows shit. Yeah, she is.

1:14:23 I mean, she's got a legal team behind her now.

1:14:25 Yeah. All through this.

1:14:28 Well, every all access to his money.

1:14:29 It's all you know. So she's a piece of shit.

1:14:32 She's a total. Piece of shit.

1:14:33 And she's fighting this civil case, whereas this is where it

1:14:37 cheats me. The whole Durst family, where

1:14:40 they all know who Robert Durst is.

1:14:42 They. Know his brothers have both been

1:14:45 deposed in these cases and they they say it, they're like, they

1:14:49 know that he's done this shit. Oh.

1:14:50 Absolutely. The younger brother, Thomas

1:14:52 particularly, yeah, I mean Douglas I think is a bit, I

1:14:57 don't know. Whereas Thomas was more open in

1:15:00 respect to talking about the family and he whereas Douglas is

1:15:04 more closed off and doesn't. Want to talk about it?

1:15:06 I feel like Douglas is because of the position he holds in the

1:15:09 company. He just does not want to have a

1:15:12 bar of what the fuck Robert has done because you can imagine

1:15:15 that for their business that is less than ideal.

1:15:19 But. At the same time, it's it's shit

1:15:21 as it is. Everyone knows that they're

1:15:23 hiding someone that they shouldn't.

1:15:24 Whereas if they just came out and said.

1:15:26 He has publicly, publicly condemned Robert for what he's

1:15:28 done. Yeah, Douglas.

1:15:30 But then they should not back that in terms of the McCormick

1:15:33 family. Absolutely, absolutely.

1:15:35 And apologize to them. Or assist them in pursuing

1:15:39 Robert Durst's estate. Yep, Yep.

1:15:41 Yeah, and just, you know what, get rid of it.

1:15:44 Like, sort it out, support them. That's what it really bugs me.

1:15:49 And that they've doubled down on that and done the whole like,

1:15:51 oh, no, no, we protect the Durst name.

1:15:53 You're not the Robert Durst is still, you know, that name will

1:15:57 still forever blackened everything.

1:15:59 He's still there. You've got to rise above it and

1:16:03 be better than that to get rid of that mark on your name.

1:16:07 But yeah, Thomas, his deposition is very interesting to listen

1:16:10 to. He again very scared of Robert

1:16:15 at one stage the because in this time Robert does is in the room

1:16:18 whilst Thomas is testifying. That would be so intimidating.

1:16:22 Well, he the the lawyer even says to him, I'm sorry, but do

1:16:25 you feel uncomfortable with Robert being in the room when

1:16:27 you're doing this? And he was, he was like, yeah,

1:16:29 this is really not OK. I don't feel safe, Like,

1:16:35 horrible. That's your brother.

1:16:36 That's your brother. Yeah, yeah.

1:16:40 He only remembers a snippet of time in 1970.

1:16:43 Like he pins it down to a time in 1970 when he was when Robert

1:16:47 just was nice to him 8 * 8 times.

1:16:52 He yeah, absolutely awful. But he, he speaks so beautifully

1:16:55 of Kathy. Yeah, he, he wishes he knew her

1:16:58 better. But he, he said, he says in his

1:17:00 deposition that he didn't know her well because he didn't have

1:17:03 the time to get to know her because Robert wouldn't allow

1:17:05 it. But he said she was just a

1:17:08 lovely woman to be around and enjoyed her company.

1:17:10 And they, they actually, he actually used to read her

1:17:13 assignments for her, for her medical studies and things.

1:17:17 He had quite, he's very intelligent man.

1:17:19 And she trusted him to read her assignments and her applications

1:17:22 for medical school too. He proofread them all and stuff

1:17:25 for her. And he said she's an incredibly

1:17:27 intelligent person that we, they could really like converse over

1:17:30 those things. But yeah, he was.

1:17:32 But Robert was awful. Yeah, I mean, he he did that

1:17:36 classic thing. He isolated her.

1:17:38 He removed her. Like even her family, her

1:17:40 brother says that, you know, where they were so incredibly

1:17:45 close. I mean, it's, it's not like they

1:17:46 lost the bond they had, but they certainly lost some of the

1:17:51 closeness they had because Robert kept her from them.

1:17:54 And, yeah, I mean, he was just so controlling in so many ways.

1:17:59 Yeah. Can we just talk really, really

1:18:02 quickly about Stuart Altman and Emily Altman?

1:18:05 Oh yeah, I know who you mean. So.

1:18:06 Yeah, so. Stuart Altman is Bob's high

1:18:08 school friend. Yeah.

1:18:09 And I think Bob's only real life long friend.

1:18:14 Yeah. You know, so we obviously Susan

1:18:16 Berman, they were friends for a long time.

1:18:18 Yeah. That was University College.

1:18:21 Yeah, whereas Stuart's known him from a much younger age.

1:18:25 Yeah, Stuart married a woman named Emily and they stood by

1:18:30 Bob through all of his shit. Yeah, he's his lawyer.

1:18:34 Yeah, well, so, yeah. So Stuart Altman was a lawyer,

1:18:36 but he wasn't a criminal lawyer. He was.

1:18:39 I don't even know what he did. He's just a small time small

1:18:43 town. Yeah, Sort.

1:18:44 Of boy, I don't know what he. Did almost want to say almost

1:18:46 conveyance or like. Yeah, something like that, like,

1:18:49 you know. Yeah.

1:18:51 But he claimed attorney-client privilege when he was deposed,

1:18:59 and his wife also claimed privilege because apparently

1:19:06 attorney-client privilege extends to all staff members of

1:19:10 a law firm. So it's not just the lawyer

1:19:13 involved in the case. So she worked there like a day a

1:19:16 week or something, so. She actually claimed that.

1:19:18 No, but so she claimed that she had privilege as well.

1:19:23 But in the trial for Susan Berman, now Emily is.

1:19:27 Really. The nail in his.

1:19:28 Coffin. Yeah, this was the nail in his

1:19:29 coffin. Emily was called to testify and

1:19:34 well, actually both both were. Stuart testified first and.

1:19:39 Oh isn't that an interesting? When he's up on the stand it

1:19:41 shit me. Yeah, because he like bloody

1:19:43 talks to the judge and he's like, do I have to answer?

1:19:45 Do I have to answer that? Do I have to?

1:19:47 Well, I don't know what to say to that.

1:19:48 And oh, he can't ask me that, can he?

1:19:49 I love the judge. The judge's response is like,

1:19:51 get to it, mate. Yeah, hurry up.

1:19:53 And then, yeah, he even says to the judge, Judge, can't we hurry

1:19:55 this along? And he's like, yeah, answer the

1:19:56 question and then we can move this along.

1:19:58 Yeah, yeah, I think he goes. I've got to be, you know, in New

1:20:01 York tomorrow. For two days yeah, question,

1:20:05 question. We can move on anyway.

1:20:08 Then after he did not really reveal or give any information

1:20:11 that was useful at all. But then Emily comes on the

1:20:14 stand next, and they so the prosecutor I've just lost.

1:20:19 His Lewin. Lewin Yeah.

1:20:20 He he was awesome. He backed her into a corner like

1:20:23 he knew that she knew stuff. But he didn't know what she

1:20:26 knew. I love that.

1:20:27 So he in so the it's funny because his Co counsel who was

1:20:32 sitting there like helping him like with the questions and

1:20:34 they'd prepped all of this stuff.

1:20:36 His Co counsels interviewed and he's like, I didn't know where

1:20:39 he was taking this and then it's not on the running sheet and I

1:20:41 didn't know what he was doing and and I didn't know like how

1:20:44 to help him, why we hadn't prepped for this.

1:20:46 But he basically like he he figures by an answer that she

1:20:50 says that she knows more about about Robert's whereabouts,

1:20:54 because at this point they hadn't put together that Robert

1:20:57 was definitely in. California.

1:20:59 They could only place him in California, in San Francisco,

1:21:01 Francisco. They couldn't place him in LA

1:21:03 Yeah. And that was what the missing

1:21:05 piece was they could make, if they could have someone identify

1:21:08 the fact that he was in LA on that date.

1:21:11 Bang, he definitely did the he was there to murderer then,

1:21:14 right? Kind of thing.

1:21:15 Yeah. So he was just hoping that she

1:21:17 knew something. Yeah.

1:21:19 And it got to the point where he's like, so this goes on for

1:21:23 many, many minutes, like probably 15 or 20 minutes where

1:21:26 he's like, he's asking her more questions and more leading

1:21:29 questions and leading, leading, leading.

1:21:31 And eventually she says yes, he was in LA on the night of of.

1:21:35 Yeah, and how she knew that or something like.

1:21:38 But she says it like in a way of like that, that it's not

1:21:40 important information, but. Yeah, because she doesn't.

1:21:43 Know she doesn't mean she hasn't she hasn't put it together.

1:21:45 And then Robert Durst, his interview of that of like, you

1:21:47 know, like, oh, not his interview, but he's it's his

1:21:49 recording of in the jail when he rings someone or he goes, you

1:21:52 know, that fucking Emily, She didn't she's such an idiot.

1:21:55 He goes. She's so stupid.

1:21:59 Oh God, So what do you know? But he loves them.

1:22:00 They're such a good friend, so lovely, such a lovely friend

1:22:03 that Josh, she's a fucking. Idiot.

1:22:04 Yeah. So like, turns her, turns on her

1:22:06 on a dime. She's been loyal to him forever.

1:22:08 She didn't know she was. She actually.

1:22:09 Didn't know. You can tell from like how she

1:22:11 answered. She then bursts into tears.

1:22:13 Yeah, that she she tweeted, because the prosecutor then says

1:22:16 to her, do you realize that Bob has never admitted to being in

1:22:19 LA at that on that night? And she goes, no, I didn't.

1:22:23 And she burst into tears. Yeah, she's fuck.

1:22:25 I had fucked him over here. Yeah.

1:22:27 She still got a Lexus out of it. Yeah, yeah, she got a Lexus,

1:22:31 whatever, and I'm sure other things as well.

1:22:34 Plenty of money, plenty of money.

1:22:36 Yeah, but it's gone now. But have you seen the she visits

1:22:42 Bob in prison pre this, pre pre trial and she goes to see him

1:22:47 and he's like, oh, stand up for me.

1:22:49 And, and she stands up and moves back.

1:22:52 And then she gets back on the phone because it's one of those

1:22:54 they both have to have the phone in order to talk to one another,

1:22:57 to one another. And he goes, you look so sexy.

1:23:00 And he goes, does Stuart tell you you're sexy?

1:23:01 And she goes, oh, no, we've been married for 30 years.

1:23:03 Of course he doesn't tell me I'm sexy.

1:23:05 And he's like, well, you are. If someone's if a friend of mine

1:23:09 like husband. Oh, like, yuck.

1:23:12 Said that to me. You would never go to their

1:23:15 house. Oh my God, no, I'm sorry.

1:23:16 Nuck. I'd be going home to my husband

1:23:18 saying your mate just said this like Oh no.

1:23:22 I don't want anything to do. Don't do him.

1:23:23 That is so inappropriate. What a line across.

1:23:25 She loved it. Oh, she loved it.

1:23:26 She absolutely loved it. Yuck.

1:23:28 Yeah. Hmm.

1:23:30 Yuck. Yuck.

1:23:30 Yuck, that's the same as his like little piece on the side

1:23:33 like that he had she that she's interesting too.

1:23:36 There was Susan, I wanna say her name was.

1:23:39 I kind of it wasn't S. Names.

1:23:42 Yeah, but yeah, he was having like he, he just constantly

1:23:45 cheated on. Yeah, well, he wasn't cheating

1:23:47 on well, Deborah Lee, because she has a partner, that she

1:23:49 lives within the city in New York.

1:23:51 Boyfriend. Yeah, and and he's known to

1:23:54 openly. Yeah, they know each other.

1:23:56 There's one phone call where he rings the house to speak to

1:23:59 Deborah. Yeah.

1:23:59 And the boyfriend answers the phone and he and he's.

1:24:02 Oh, hey, Bob. No, it's.

1:24:03 What are his name is, You know, it's too modern.

1:24:05 I can't remember his name was. It's too much.

1:24:06 I'll go get her for you. Yeah.

1:24:08 And then you hear him call out in the background, Hun, It's

1:24:11 it's Bob. Yeah, you know, And it's like,

1:24:13 what the fuck? Yeah.

1:24:14 That's your wife you're calling like, Oh no, But yeah, because.

1:24:18 He as we. Said And openly, openly, like

1:24:20 she they would go out to charity events, et cetera.

1:24:23 You know, all that together, those two as a couple, Like

1:24:26 people knew that they were together, but she was still

1:24:28 legally married to Bob. Yep.

1:24:31 Yeah. God, I just wrote down another

1:24:34 quote. Oh yeah.

1:24:35 So when Bob's on trial, he ends up taking the stand.

1:24:38 And which was, I don't think his lawyers wanted him to.

1:24:43 So in the drinks, they interviewed and they're like,

1:24:45 oh, they don't say it, but you can tell that it wasn't the way

1:24:49 they wanted it to go. Yeah, but he decided he wanted

1:24:52 to take the the stand because he wanted the attention.

1:24:55 Absolutely. And the prosecutor says to him,

1:25:00 if you killed her, would you tell us?

1:25:02 So this is in the trial of Susan Berman.

1:25:04 Obviously, if you killed her, would you tell us?

1:25:06 And he goes no. And he and he goes, so you're

1:25:11 essentially perjuring yourself. Yeah, like he just openly admits

1:25:17 to the fact that he would never admit to it.

1:25:19 He oh, and then he says, have you lied in court?

1:25:22 And he goes, yes, I'm like, for fuck's sake, dude.

1:25:26 So. And and then the prosecutor's

1:25:29 incredulous at that. He's like, but so you're telling

1:25:33 us Underoath that you have perjured yourself?

1:25:38 Is that is that your testimony? And he goes, yes, I'm like, for

1:25:44 fuck's sake, what is with this point?

1:25:45 He just doesn't give a shit. No, I mean, I think he knows

1:25:49 he's dying too. This is the thing.

1:25:51 That's it. I think that honestly, not that

1:25:53 he would give away anything. No, if you're gonna work it out

1:25:56 on your own, you can have it. Yeah.

1:25:57 Like, yeah, he's definitely. He played it.

1:26:01 He played. He was playing them the whole

1:26:02 time and. Yeah.

1:26:03 This is just one big lifelong, essentially lifelong game for

1:26:06 him. Yeah.

1:26:07 Although was this the only game? So there are inferences that

1:26:12 potentially he murdered more people.

1:26:16 So it's being investigated cold cases by the FBI that

1:26:19 potentially he could be linked to the murders of Lynn Schultz

1:26:25 from Mulberry, Vermont. He was 18 at the 18 years old at

1:26:29 the age of at a disappearance. Karen Mitchell from Eureka, CA,

1:26:35 and also Kristin Modafry, who was eighteen from San Francisco.

1:26:41 And all these occurred in 1997, so.

1:26:43 These were all young women, weren't they?

1:26:45 They were all, all young women. So the, the, yeah, the, the FBI

1:26:51 are looking into these cases. They haven't been able to link

1:26:54 him entirely to this day. But there, there certainly is

1:26:58 connections to these deaths. He's, he's definitely interacted

1:27:02 with each of these people and they can certainly pinpoint

1:27:06 that. I think the thing that they're

1:27:08 not so with all with the other three murders, there's motive

1:27:11 there and like a known and strong motive.

1:27:15 Yeah. I think with these ones, they're

1:27:16 like, well, is this random? Like has he just escalated?

1:27:19 Like why has, what is the motive?

1:27:21 Why has he killed these women? Yeah, if it is him.

1:27:23 Because there was like, obviously with Kathy, there's,

1:27:26 there's motive in terms of like he just, he wanted out of the

1:27:28 marriage and she was asking for money and he didn't want to deal

1:27:30 with it. Yep.

1:27:31 You know, Susan Berman knew stuff about Cathy's murder and

1:27:35 she was going to blab to the cops.

1:27:36 So there's a motive for that one.

1:27:38 Morris Black, we don't quite have motive, but quite possibly

1:27:41 he was going to expose that Robert Dess was there in

1:27:44 Galveston, He was hiding out. There's quite possibly easily

1:27:47 motive there that you could find in terms of his murder.

1:27:51 Whereas these random sort of women, there's not those

1:27:54 immediate possibilities of, of a, a motive.

1:27:59 So he's, he's been looked into for the Long Island serial

1:28:01 killer as well. So he's not just murdered

1:28:05 people. He knows it's what I'm trying to

1:28:07 get at is that potentially there's, there's more to it than

1:28:10 that. He's there's been investigations

1:28:14 also that have traced Durst operating under stolen

1:28:16 identities in Texas, Florida, Massachusetts, New Jersey, South

1:28:19 Carolina, Mississippi and Virginia.

1:28:22 So he's well known for having lots of different identities

1:28:25 around. So which could mean that he's,

1:28:27 you know, yeah, operating under the radar and potentially has

1:28:32 murdered more. Yeah.

1:28:34 Which is scary as fuck. I don't know if we'll ever get

1:28:37 conclusions to any of that. I don't think, I don't think

1:28:40 we'll ever know, but he's one creepy weird ass dude.

1:28:44 He's so weird so just if you haven't seen what he looks like

1:28:49 and what his demeanor is, please just Google.

1:28:52 Even just watch 5 minutes of footage because even his

1:28:57 mannerisms, the way just all of him, he's just yeah and don't

1:29:00 you reckon his eyes are just evil?

1:29:02 Yes. Oh, they're black.

1:29:03 They're black. This.

1:29:04 It's weird because it's fair. Yeah, but his eyes are.

1:29:08 Black it, it creeps me out. I do, and I find this really

1:29:11 like I agree with like Andrew Drake, his take on this in terms

1:29:13 of like when he when they worked out this connection of like that

1:29:16 Godiva note that they had him that it was it was his

1:29:19 handwriting, it was him, the same spelling mistake, all that

1:29:22 kind of stuff. He was saying like he didn't

1:29:24 want to present that almost to him because he liked him.

1:29:26 He he he was, he isn't endearing.

1:29:29 He's funny. Like he doesn't know he is.

1:29:31 Yeah, like it's you watch that jinx and you.

1:29:34 Yeah, I mean, freaking hell, those conversations and stuff.

1:29:38 There's something about him that you kind of also go, oh God,

1:29:42 he's fucking weird. But he's he's he's such a

1:29:44 jittery old man, like, you know, like and you, you kind of like

1:29:47 him. Yeah, you want it.

1:29:48 But yeah, but he know. He's evil.

1:29:50 Whole other level of Creed as well.

1:29:52 Well, yeah, I guess it's just that intriguing.

1:29:55 Human. Yeah.

1:29:56 Like, yeah, he's intriguing. Yeah, very much so I.

1:29:59 Mean, yeah, I'd love to sit down and talk to him because I think

1:30:02 that. Not that I can now, obviously,

1:30:04 but yeah, he's a very interesting person.

1:30:07 Yeah. Look behind bars, please.

1:30:09 Yeah. Oh, absolutely.

1:30:10 He, I mean, you know, he's deceased now, but he, he would

1:30:14 have to have been in prison for the rest of his life because

1:30:16 there was no reform for him. No way.

1:30:18 I mean, this is it. Like, I mean, whether he just

1:30:21 killed these three people that we've spoken about clearly today

1:30:24 or whether there is a whole nother level of serial killer

1:30:27 kind of in him. Yeah.

1:30:30 Not. Not.

1:30:31 Regardless, you want to be around not.

1:30:34 He wouldn't have been able to have been rehabilitated.

1:30:36 No, no, no, no. Yeah.

1:30:38 He would he would definitely in 105 that he could kill someone

1:30:43 again. I reckon that's what I kind of

1:30:44 at one stage I was like, oh, his brothers are like so scared of

1:30:46 him murdering him. And you kind of see this old man

1:30:48 like walking around the city, like limping, you know, along

1:30:50 and that and you think I have to be scared of that.

1:30:52 Like what is he going to do? I reckon he turned away.

1:30:55 Yeah, he was cunning, yeah, that is for sure.

1:30:58 Yeah, All right. Do you?

1:31:00 Think we leave it there. As we said, there is so much

1:31:02 more to this case. I've got pages and pages of

1:31:04 notes that we haven't even touched.

1:31:05 Just got Peter in the back of my head going.

1:31:07 Have we told people where the body is?

1:31:08 Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

1:31:14 Oh, Oh yeah. No, there's only one other thing

1:31:16 that his brother came out. Oh, my God.

1:31:17 OK, this is really gross. So his brother actually in that

1:31:21 one of the depositions, this is Douglas, the other brother.

1:31:24 He told a story of that He believed that Robert Durst

1:31:29 killed six of his dogs in practice before he killed Kathy.

1:31:36 I did not know that. So the jurors heard a recorded

1:31:40 phone call between Durst and his second wife in which he talks of

1:31:43 igoring his younger brother, Douglas Durst, right.

1:31:48 Igor is the name of Durst dog. Douglas Durst, the head of the

1:31:54 Durst real estate empire in New York, says Robert Durst killed,

1:31:57 sorry, seven dogs named Igor as practice.

1:32:02 He had seven dogs with the same name.

1:32:04 Yeah, that's, yeah, I find that even like, I think he like,

1:32:08 replaced it once he killed it so that he never saw that there was

1:32:11 more than one dog. Oh, I did not know that.

1:32:16 No, that was just. Oh, that's.

1:32:19 Oh yeah though Alaskan Malamutes, which I know he's

1:32:22 known for having. Yeah, and was named Igor.

1:32:25 And he? Oh my God, he killed and

1:32:27 disposed of the bodies of the dogs.

1:32:28 Well, there's that escalation again then, isn't it?

1:32:31 Yeah. Try to kill him, Kathy.

1:32:33 Yeah. Yeah.

1:32:34 So that's just an accusation by his brother, but there's a

1:32:36 definite phone call that is that is on record.

1:32:38 I gore you. I'm gonna I gore talked about

1:32:41 igoring. Yeah.

1:32:42 His brother Doug. Yeah.

1:32:43 OK. Oh fuck that is so fucked up.

1:32:45 Yeah, yeah. Bloody hell.

1:32:48 Gross. Gross.

1:32:49 Don't kill. Gross.

1:32:50 That's awful. Yeah.

1:32:53 On that note, yeah, let's leave it there.

1:32:55 I just noticed the time and it has been a long one.

1:32:58 Great. Thank you to everybody who's

1:33:00 gotten to the end of this episode.

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1:33:24 Stay curious, Crime besties. Bye.