Episode 28 - Keli & Tegan Lane

0:15 Happy New Year, crime besties. Welcome back to our first episode of 2025. Yes, Happy new Year. Oh, that's really weird, isn't it? We're back. We're. Back after a little break. We've had a, you know, I'm sure we're recording this a little bit in advance, but I'm hoping we're having a really lovely Christmas break at the moment. Enjoying the time with our children. Yeah, I look, the one thing I absolutely adore about holidays is not having to make lunch boxes, although you're a bit of a snack bitch for the entire time.

0:46 Well, that's why I've got my snack drawer. I allow access to everything holidays I just limit like what I put in it. Yep and then I'm. So as in, do you just put like a day's worth of snacks into the drawer and then replenish it daily? Yeah, sometimes I just stock it, like kind of, but with snacks that I'm OK with them eating OK. And other times if it's getting out of hand, I'll pull back OK and only have certain amounts. But my kids are pretty good at not overeating. I just. But what I also have in the drawer is bowls, like little plastic bowls.

1:16 And the expectation is that anything in there that's larger gets, you know, portioned into a little bowl. So they've got everything they need, cups, everything in that drawer. Love it. They should not need to be in any other cupboard. Do you find them ever in any other cupboard? Of course I do. Yeah. Like where are the good snacks? Bums holding out on us again. Oh, they'll never find that Heidi Hold.

1:38 As as they should, because they shouldn't. I thought we'd kick off this episode by having a bit of a chat about what your word for 2024 was. Yeah. And what your word for 2025 is is going to be. Yep. Yep. All right. Are you ready for it? All right. I gave you like, literally about an hour heads up that I was going to ask you this question. Yeah. Yeah, Go. I think, well, such contradictions probably so my word for 2024 is mullet. No. Because it's driven me nuts, I reckon, for a full 12 months. OK.

2:11 And now we're here. Yep, he's he's now got a fully fledged mullet, so it took all year. I want to vomit. It's taken all year because we've gone from me adamantly. I was the parent who was like, I draw the line at a mullet. You can choose for whatever you like to do with your hair. It grows back. But I draw the line at a mullet. My child is never having a mullet. And yet. Here we are. Today, last night, last night, the child got a mullet. He's been, he thought he had, he thought he's had, he's, he's been building this for a long time and it's been getting longer and longer.

2:44 Absolutely. And God, like, I mean, well, my kids have a lot of hair. Shock horror. And so it's been growing and getting buffier and buffier and I'm like, this needs taming. So we did go and get haircuts last night. He bawled his eyes out in the car. And the way they're telling me no one's cutting my hair because he was really happy with it just growing, but it was looking so bad. So I made him go in and saying to him, you know, the hairdressers, they're the professionals. They know what to do. They'll shape it.

3:14 We're not taking length, they'll shape it. We walked in and there was a guy and look, he's lovely. This hairdresser, he oh Baba, he's, he's really lovely young guy and he's got this haircut. And my and Brody just went that that's what I want. So the young guy who then cut it, he just went, I want what Luke's got. Come on. That that's actually really. Cute it was that I'm really sweet, but the but the whole thing was I want what Luke's got, but with my length Yeah. And so so. From the front, he looks.

3:43 Adorable. He looks so gorgeous. The party in the back. Oh, isn't it, though? And like this morning at school, I had to like, run my fingers through it because it was just, it's just so thick. I did. Oh, there was no holding back. It's so thick and glorious and it's not on my child. So there's that. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. My youngest. So Brody, who's Brody's best friend, Lucas, he's like very much about the short back inside. He likes to look like Cristiano Ronaldo. Yeah. Who's very well kept. Love that.

4:16 Yes. I saw a great. Role model, yeah. My older boy, though, is like Brody, like he's got. He looks like a Packer. Yeah. And I saw this meme recently going around, basically, it's like mums of boys who had haircuts like this. And it was a photo of, like, really nicely cut hair, really beautifully styled, short back inside. And whatever will inevitably end up with a boy looking like this. And it was the alpaca hairstyle. And I'm like, literally, I could put photos, insert photos of Oliver for both of those.

4:48 So I get it. I get that there's no control because they are their own people. Yeah, it's just here. And at some point you've got to let go. But Oh my God. Because even like the like the sides of Brodie's where like because it's this fade thing or whatever. And as I was like, I'm like, so we're good. You know what, you're doing great. OK, I'm walking away because I'm like leaving into it. And the the Barber turned to me and goes, so we're going right down to 0. Are we like on the sides there? And I was like, oh wait, what?

5:15 I don't even know. Like just. Whatever. I mean, there's, there's no coming back from this. Yeah, this is it. I mean, God, the 0 is not my concern. Really. After that. Exactly. Oh yeah, definitely. This year has been. It's the talk. Of the mullet. A mullet over the year. Exactly a mullet of a year. Yeah, OK. What about yours? My word of 2024 is complex. I just feel like they've been a lot of complex situations this year and a lot of things that I've been working through and like realizing. And I think it's because I'm getting older.

5:47 Yeah. And this year, 2025, I know, I know. I'm really old. This year, in 2025, I'm turning 40. And I think, like, you know, when you're coming up for a milestone, anything, it makes you reflect obviously on, yeah, where you're at and what you're doing and where you wanna. Go, Don't wanna turn this age. Is this gonna be I'm cool thing? Yeah, I'm cool. For turning 40. Yeah, I think what is the new like 20, Yeah. Totally. I'm cool. I'm cool for it, but it yeah, I've just been reflecting a lot and yeah, there's a lot of complexities in life that I wanna simplify next year, obviously in 2025.

6:20 Mm hmm. And I just want my word for 2025 is actually joy. I wanna do things that bring me joy. Yeah. Like doing this podcast, you know, every week. We're committed to it. We're doing it. Don't worry. Oh, yeah. But also like, choosing joy in situations that I probably wouldn't ordinarily have otherwise. Like, I've always been one of these people who I choose, like, the responsible thing to do all the time and the the right thing to do. And I'm very much a people pleaser. I like to make sure everyone around me is, you know, accommodated.

6:52 Yeah. Which is great. I like that about myself. In some ways, yes, but I want to do it only in situations. That's right. I only want to do that in situations that also serves me. Yes, I know this sounds really selfish, but nobody is going to be my year of me. And so I want to be like, yeah, I want that to be my focus for this year. Love that. Happy to do all my things but as long as it brings me joy. Yeah, yeah. And learn how to say no. I am slowly learning how to say no. I feel like I've done really well over the Christmas period because normally I find I get so burnt out.

7:24 And you know, when people go like, oh, let's catch up for this, let's do this, How about we fit in this? And I just feel like I'm always like, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. You get to Christmas and you can't enjoy it because you're so burnt out. Yeah, I feel like this year I've really done well. Like I've chosen not to go to certain events that I would have 100% gone to in the past. Yeah. And yeah, it's actually been a much nicer period. And for the kids as well, like we've been around home a lot more than we probably ordinarily would have.

7:53 And it's just been nice. Yeah. Really, really nice. And spending time together, that's like literally the most important thing, so. So is yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So slightly slightly different tangent to yours, but tell me what you're. No, because my 2025 word is probably on similar level of like, you know, that it's very, very different to mullet. Yeah. Organization. I want to be far more organized. I feel like my, my life has shifted these last few years and I feel like I'm still trying to find my feet of my new norm of like just general organization of how I manage myself.

8:26 So work and in family life both. Like I feel like I'm in a position in my work that I know what I'm doing enough that I should be more organized instead of flying by the seat of my pants all the time, which I tend to do. And then in my home life as well though, like I just feel like things get out of control and I shouldn't let it when I could be just be more organized and now and in that being more organized, I can then actually do more for myself. Yeah, that's true. Because I feel like I'm constantly just taking care of other things rather than me, Yeah.

8:57 And doing the things that I need to do for myself, not the things maybe I want to do because it's about the need to. Because, yeah, it's a, it's a need to, you know, eat better, you know, you know, be more organised in managing those things. Getting time to go for a walk. Yeah. Things like that. That I just am not fitting in at the moment because life's getting in the way. Yeah. When a simple organization could fix it, I mean. You've got the concepts, they're like you've got your snack drawer and all those kinds of things like that's, that's a reliable.

9:23 Yeah, totally. Yeah. But that's a simple like, because that's so entrenched in me of like how I do my shopping. Like, I literally unpack my groceries to that. Yeah. Like, so that's yeah. But I want more of that in my life. You've got this girl, Yeah. Yeah, love that we'll make 2025 the year, weren't we? The year, yeah, it is. Well, this podcast's gonna blow up. We're gonna quit our jobs. Imagine that. OK, first episode of 2025. Imagine if by the end of this year, oh, that would be amazing, that would we need to get subscribe, people subscribe.

9:56 Look, we're not we're not quitting anytime soon. So let's hope, let's hope for it. It's always been the goal. Yeah, and it will continue. Yeah, I love it. So what are we talking about today? All right, so today's case is really, it's a big one. It's a very interesting one. We're talking about Kelly Lane and her baby Tegan Lane. So this is a huge case from back in the 90s and so people might have heard of Kelly Lane, they might have heard of Tegan, but I feel like it's one of those ones where you might not know that straight away.

10:26 Once you start, we start getting into it, you go, oh, I remember this happening, it was in the media and things like that. If you're from Australia, outside of Australia, probably have no idea of this case. So it's very interesting little. Although I did listen to a podcast from some UK based, yeah, podcasters who like were sort of getting the story out there. So yeah, I think because it is such a complex and there's that word, a complex and interesting story. Yeah. And there's so much nuance to it.

10:55 Gotcha. Just really quickly, earlier in the week, Meg and I were having a chat about the way we felt about this. And I think we've got slightly differing opinions as to what's happened, well, to what we believe. But it'll be interesting to see as we go along because in this, you can find people who are absolutely, for once, one way and the way one thing happened, and you can find the absolute opposite. So depending on, I guess, what you've listened to, what you've researched can help form those, how you interpret things.

11:25 Exactly. Yeah. And I mean, yeah, at the end of the day, there's a missing baby. A missing child. Yeah. A missing who, a woman who would be in her 20s this day, to this day if she were found. So, you know, there's, there's a lot. Of how? Yeah. How old would Tegan be now? Is it about 20? 24 yeah, something like that, yeah. Yeah, that's insane. Which so there could be someone out there in in living anywhere in the world that this, that could be the person we're looking for. Yeah, in this. We don't know that.

11:58 We don't know. And this is this is the thing that makes it so tricky. Yeah, so, so tricky. All right, Kelly Lane was born on the 21st of March in 1975. So she's about, she's almost 50I. Think yeah, she's 49. Yeah. 49 Her parents, Sandra and Robert Lane, were very well respected members of the community. So Kelly was born in Manly in Sydney and, you know, we know Manly and we know that area, you know, really well is true crime. Yeah. Because this is the same setting that the teacher's pet was set in.

12:33 So it's in that insular peninsula. Insula it's that and it's also like a similar time. It's, you know, it's a, it's not far off of the timeline of that going. Off it's it's not far off. Yeah. And, and in in researching this, the lifestyle of what was happening around that insula, peninsula, Kelly Lane was certainly, I think, mixed up in that. Absolutely. Like what what you're referring to, I think is like these older men praying on younger women and and we know that like in the case of Chris Dawson, he was a school teacher in that area and he was having relationships with his students and similarly.

13:09 So Kelly Lane was a water polo play water polo player and she, like she says readily, there were like 30 year old men dating 16 year old women from the water Polo Club and you just think what the hell, like. I knew these, but this was. Normal like it wasn't just like a one off salvation this. Is the thing you sort of listen to the the teacher's pet and you can sort of go, oh, there was these two men, you know that as being the twins or the dorsal twins. You know that we're doing this, you know, and being involved in this.

13:35 But then you really realize when you look at this case, it was far bigger than just the two of them. It was, it was a culture. It was, it was a culture. Northern beaches of. Sydney, which is so scary. Gross. I really. Find it really horrible and the fact that no, I mean, again, with this one, it's the adults in this situation have dropped the ball in that whole area. These young girls were being exploited. It just, yeah, it really blows my mind getting into this. And I'm realizing that across the board in that area with some whole lot of not good stuff going on.

14:07 For sure. So Kelly's dad, Robert was a police officer in at Manly Police Station and her mum was a hospital worker. I'm not quite sure exactly what she did there. I don't think she was a nurse or part of the medical staff, right. But she, she held some job at at the hospital. We need to come back to hospital. Pardon. We will come back to her. Oh my God. I. Can't wait actually to get into that with me too. So Kelly was a really sporty child and I think the family really placed a huge amount of value on sporting achievements and achievements in general.

14:44 Kelly wasn't, you know, a stellar academic, but she was, she did well at school. Yeah. And she was very well liked. She was really popular. As I said, she was a water polo player. She was involved in like at a quite a high level in this sport, like in state teams. And she even made a national, a junior national team at at one point. Yeah, there was some suggestion, but potentially at some point she might even be able to make an Olympic team, even though there's conjecture around. That basically and generally people were saying about her was that she was a naturally gifted talented athlete.

15:19 It was whether not her ambition was there or. Not was all that drew from what I've seen. Like one of her coaches describes her as like she had the grit and determination to do it. Yeah, she didn't really have the natural talent as a water polo player not. But she wanted to get there. Yeah. Then one of her friends says, and I think this is like completely fair. If she really wanted to be an elite athlete, shouldn't be out drinking. She wouldn't be out partying every weekend. She could have actually probably, had she focused solely on that, she probably could have made it because she did have that natural innate ability.

15:51 There's natural ability there, she just wasn't one that was cultivating it in herself because there was other draw cards that were more important to her. Yeah, and that's completely fair. We make our choices. I mean, I'm sure that out there, not just because you have the ability to be good at something doesn't mean that that's your passion. Yeah, but I think there was a massive expectation from your parents that she would have she would achieve in the sporting arena, Yeah. And that, well, the family were very well known in the area just in general of as a community.

16:17 They were like obviously people who participated in the community. They were on the committees of the surf club. You know, they were on the committees and, you know, and managers of, of hot water polo teams. They were when a family who went, Oh yeah, go along and do your sport, they participated. Which I think the dad Robert was, he was like quite up, quite high up as a rugby coach in the area. Yeah, he was well respected in rugby, yeah. Yeah. So yeah, they were involved in a lot of different things.

16:43 Yeah, they had, you know, yeah, community and people knew who the Lane family were. And they even say it in interviews. Yeah. They're like, well, we had a certain social standing. We had a certain reputation to uphold. Yeah. Yep. Interesting. It is look, the family dynamics here, we will get into this as the story goes along, but it is unbelievable and you just can't believe that a family could function like this. I mean, at the surface level, yes, they were a functioning family. They were, you know, pillars of the community.

17:13 But then you you did that one little layer, scratched that surface a little bit. Only a little bit too, yeah. And you're like, fuck, they were fucked. They they, they were so dysfunctional. Yeah, I mean, I heard one sort of talk of a psychologist sort of saying that in the household, like Kelly had been raised as, as a human being, not a girl. Like. So there was just these, there was never any talk around. I mean, little girls need conversations with their mum or their dad, whoever it is that can be in their their life, talking about changes in your body and things like that, because that's important to have those conversations.

17:47 Those sorts of emotional conversations never took place. So she grew up in, she was as raised as a tomboy as much as possible. You could be raised as a tomboy, you know. So she didn't. I don't think there was ever any emotional conversations happening in that. House I also like in one of something that I've either read or listened to, there was talk that, you know, her mum never had a chat with her about periods or like reproductive health or anything like that and. And look, plenty of parents aren't good at that, you know, I mean, I can vouch that my mum wasn't great like, you know, but you know, it would still.

18:22 Enough, like kind of thing, Yeah. So you weren't like shocked and this happened to. You. Yeah, but I think it was a whole another level of that of like, you know that fully. I don't know how to talk about that with those. I just don't just don't talk about it. Yeah, I really get that sense that there was. So then you think of Kelly as a young teenager going through that, That'd be very isolating. And to not be able to talk to your mom about it, yeah, that's hard. That's hard. Yeah. And I guess if she's grown up to be sort of quite insular issue, then talking to her friends about it.

18:53 Like I've got friends who I grew up with who never talked about periods, never talked about changes to their bodies. And then on the other hand, I've got friends who talk about it all the time. So I guess that depends, like, you know, the way you were raised and the way that whether this was a taboo thing in your household or not, whether it was something you talked about or not. Yeah, Yeah. It's really, it's just this just sort of like builds a little bit more about what? A picture of who? She is.

19:19 And what, how she grew up, Yeah, 'cause it certainly impacts, I think, who she became. Yeah. As an adult. Well, even not necessarily even adulthood when these things started for her. No, really, no. So according to Sandra and Robert, they, their family values were respect for others, honesty. We'll get back to that. And they were sort of the mottos that the family lived by. Yeah, yeah. But did they? No. Well, yeah, I don't think it was like, you know, we have a standing in the we have it's they wanted to put out portray an image to others of how their family work was.

19:56 But I think at home there wasn't any communication, yeah, beyond how other people perceived them. Yeah, they were successful in doing that because everyone who knew them superficially was like, oh, yeah, they were great. They, you know, wonderful people. They did a lot for the community. Yeah. Kelly also had a brother. Yeah. So it was a a family unit of of four people. Yeah. In 1992, do we get? Do we start the timeline? Let's yeah, let's get to the timeline. Yeah, because I think otherwise this episode's going to go on.

20:25 I mean, it's going to go on forever. Anyway. In November of 1992, Kelly falls pregnant with her first child. She was 17 years old at the time, and she fell pregnant to her boyfriend like a childhood sweetheart named Aaron Tayak. I think he pronounced his surname. Yeah, he's done. Well, they she tells him about this pregnancy. So she obviously figures out that she's pregnant and that all of this is going on, and she tells him about it. And they decide mutually that she's going to have a termination.

21:00 Yeah. Now According to him, and he drove her to the Manly dock, she caught the ferry over to the Sydney to Sydney to have the termination at a clinic and he waited for her to come back and for her to come back. And when she came back, he describes her as being broken. So I wonder why he didn't go, but I guess it is, you know, the 90s. It was 17. Yeah. I mean, to deal with that on your own, that's huge. I just feel for her, imagine her being in that situation. She hasn't told a soul aside from Aaron and.

21:36 They were both in year 12. They're still finishing school. So, I mean, you know, wasn't good timing for that to happen. And you can understand the decision they made, but jeez, they needed more support to go through all that. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and neither of them told us all. There's a there was a documentary released by the ABC called Exposed the Kelly Lane Story, and it was produced by Caro Meldrum. Hannah, who is an amazing journalist. She's most famous for reporting for Four Corners. Yeah. And she she this three-part documentary, I suppose.

22:16 Yeah. Is very interesting. Yeah. But she interviews Aaron as part of it. Yeah. In in the earlier episodes especially. And he seems like a really lovely guy. Like he's, he's just a very simple man and and he gets quite emotional recalling the events and how it all came about. And like, you know, it still effects him to this day. Which, yeah, it would. Yep, yes, not I mean, I'm sure there's unfortunately lots of girls that have been through that and and lots of boys that, you know, that that have been together with somebody and that's happened and and they've gone through that together.

22:52 Yeah, You know, so, you know, it's not uncommon, but at the same time it would have just been a really tough thing. And it was clear he felt that she was very emotional about it. He was clearly emotional about it, but they made. The right decision for them at the time. Yeah, Yeah, yeah, I fully agree. In mid 1994, Kelly falls pregnant again for the second time. Yeah, This time it was allegedly to a marriage. She was having an affair with a married man. Now, Yeah, I don't know. I've seen different things reported about whether that's true, but I think that's the most commonly accepted version of events.

23:32 Yeah. And they decide, again, mutually, that she's going to. Terminate that. So she did Professor. I didn't think she even told him. Oh, didn't she? No, that was my understanding what he didn't even know. But I might be wrong. I. Oh, sorry. No, I've. I've literally got that written down. She didn't tell him. I'm really sorry. She told nobody, literally nobody for this pregnancy. So she'd just broken up with Aaron when she fell pregnant. Yeah, she had overlaps of. Yeah, she was. Sleeping with them things, Yeah.

24:02 So I don't think she actually fully knew who the father would have been. OK, from what I could gather. OK, yeah, it was a late term abortion. Yeah, 20 weeks gestation. So that's a. Completely different procedure to to the first one that what she had to have go through so and from her account of that it was pretty horrific. It was a 2 step process. Yeah, overnight in hospital they had to put a dilate, like insert a dilator. Yeah, like, it just sounded horrific the way she describes it. But at, you know, at 20 weeks, you're halfway through a pregnancy.

24:35 The the fetus is, you know, really far developed. Really. I mean, I think viability these days for a couple weeks off. I was gonna say it's I think it's 22 weeks. It's either 22 or 24. Either way, really close to viability. Yeah. So, you know, it would have been such a traumatic thing for her to go through, but why did she wait until she was 20 weeks? That's really. Yeah. Well, she says she didn't know she was pregnant. And look, I there's a few things with that that I can understand. As an athlete, she skipped periods.

25:05 So, OK, you're not going to know that you haven't had a period and therefore you might be pregnant. Yeah, completely understand that. But if she was taking the pill regularly enough and properly, probably wouldn't have fallen pregnant. But then but again, I know plenty of people who have. So she admits, though, that she wasn't taking the pill regularly. She was drinking a lot. So that could. And so it renders it potentially renders it ineffective, effective. Yeah. So she actually wasn't compliant in terms of taking the pill.

25:34 So what do you think is going to happen? Well, yeah, Yeah. Because apparently the other thing is like back in the day, the especially in this scene, the men were like, Oh no we don't. Wear condoms. Fucking hell.

25:51 Yep, they don't have any responsibilities. Oh no, no. Why would they? Why would they? Yep. Yeah. So I mean, why she let it go that late, I don't know. Yep. Interesting. It's a very. Very. And but again, she did not tell anybody about this pregnancy. She never told her mom, never told a friend anything. No. So yeah, how do I like? But the awful thing with it, too, I think she actually went to one clinic where she'd gone to the last time to have the abortion. She went to the same clinic. They turned her away and said we can't do it because it's so so because you're so far along.

26:24 They referred her to another clinic to go and have the abortion. So yeah, she had to go and like, seek this out and find all this stuff out for herself. She had no idea how to do this and found her way around all those things and worked it out all by herself. I mean, that's awful. Yeah. How old is she at that point? 1818 yeah, yeah. So yes. Then we get to early 9595 S this time again, she falls pregnant again. This time, though, she carries the baby full term. So she organized for this baby to be adopted.

27:02 She didn't tell the father about it at all. She didn't tell anyone about this pregnancy. So this is where it gets really interesting with their pregnancies. So she had a boyfriend at the time she so they were. Duncan Gillies, his name is. His name will keep coming up throughout this. So he was a rugby player. They were both sort of really amazing athletes and they were like the golden couple kind of thing, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So she she carried this baby full term, dating him, obviously sleeping with him, potentially sleeping with other people as well as she was.

27:31 Definitely sleeping with. Others because he wasn't the father. We know he's not the father. Yeah, yeah. So this is so this little baby was obviously carried to full term with him, with her boyfriend not knowing at all that she's nine months pregnant. OK, so. They asked him about this at the inquest, right? And they were like, how did you know? Like, were you sexually active throughout this time? Yes, yes, we were. She'd stay over three or four nights a week and we were intimate multiple times a week during that time.

27:57 The way he describes it is very funny, but I mean, it sort of takes you back to that. Like, he's not funny. But they they would have sex in a spooning position and he wasn't allowed to touch her stomach because she was self-conscious that she'd put on weight. Yes, she'd put on weight because you're fucking nearly nine months pregnant. At this point. Yeah, I I can't buy the fact that he didn't know. I think he just was. It was convenient. Convenient for him to not say anything. I had to do. Anything.

28:28 And for Yeah, yeah. None of my business what? Could have very easily been your baby. It wasn't. No, but it could have. How was he to know that? Yeah, he wasn't. And to think that no one like that he didn't go think to say to her, hey, do you think might be you might be pregnant? Yeah, like so during this time her water polo team was like doing really well and they actually made the grand final of like the state based competition, I think. Yeah, they won it. Yeah. And then that night they decided to go out for drinks.

28:59 Yes. Now at this point. Kelly was nine months pregnant. Yeah, she just put on that to the she's played a grand final in water polo Now. Water polo is a incredibly physical game. And I don't mean just in terms of what she needs, how physical she needs to be. I mean there is scratching pullings like they come out of those pools without bathers on because they RIP them like they will, like they gouge. They kick really hard. Have you ever played water polo? Oh. Never. Oh, yeah. I've played. We used to play all the time at school.

29:33 And Oh my God, Like it that people kick you under the water, like in the stomach because then you're like, you know, oh, God, you know, like, yeah, swallowing water while someone else is grabbing the ball off you. So it's all that's how you play. It sounds diabolical. It's. Awful. It's like torture. Yeah, yeah. My dad played very high level water polo. He'll tell you stories about what they would do for the men when they kick you. I can I can imagine. Yeah, it's, it is a very physical game, Yeah.

30:02 And she's nine months pregnant. So just oh, so the the in the in the exposed documentary, they question the coaches and the staff like the team manager and her teammates. So there's only one teammate that actually spoke out in the documentary and they don't get closed ranks and didn't want to talk about it, but they're like, how did you not say she's in a bathing? They all knew. They all knew. They. Were all talking about it. Absolutely. But no one actually talked to Kelly about it. They were talking about it behind her back.

30:34 Even the team manager, the adults, the the the coach denies denies, denies that he knew. I'm like, I don't. Alongside her mother, who was the manager. Of the team, not at the time. It was another lady who was the manager at the time, but her mum had been a manager of the team. Previously during whilst one of her pregnancies too. OK, Yeah. Not I know it wasn't during this one, but that other lady. All the gossip going on behind the scene, they were all talking about it. Not one of those adults when when hey this 19 year old and is pregnant and and playing water polo.

31:04 Should we not say something and? She can't. She can't play well. I'm all stated. Like the fact that you don't say to a woman like, oh, congratulations, until you know they're pregnant. I, I'm, I'm that person. He was like, until they tell me I'm pregnant, I don't say anything. Peter has a Peter has a rule, a life rule that he's like, unless I can see a baby coming out of that woman at that exact moment in time, I will never comment on whether she's pregnant or not. I, I, yeah, I'm starched. I'm Storch to that too.

31:32 I mean, it's really hard to like to do that, but in a situation where she's being put into a physical encounter like that in a water polo game and only 19, someone should have said to her, look, love, let's just have a do a pregnancy test and check and see maybe if you're pregnant because, you know, like we want to look after you. Yeah. No one wanted to look after her. No, that that is what's I find She's really. Hard yeah I agree. She tried to conceal her pregnancy by like wrapping her tail around her and sitting on the edge of the pool and like sliding into the pool, whereas apparently before she'd always like dive in and would walk around in her bathers and not have a care in the world about that there's.

32:12 Also going under the water and their goggles, like yeah, like she's definitely pregnant. But not actually going up to and going, hey, you, you right. Yeah. Because you haven't told anyone about it. Yeah. Do you need some help? Do you need? I noticed this day like that woman they did interview on that show, She says now she regrets not saying anything. But I don't, I don't put it on the other 19 year old girls, to be really honest. I mean, especially in that day and age. I think today kids would be more, you know, at 19 would be more upfront with their friend.

32:38 Yeah. But the adults should have been more protective, 100%. They have real, they should have guilt and they do have something to answer to on that, I reckon. Yeah. So they've won this grand final, they've gone out to the pub. No, we've just gone off this tantrum. But that's fine. She they've gone off to the pub having some drinks and then everyone's like, oh, where's Kelly? Kelly's normally there to stump. Oh yeah, big time. Loves a drink, loves a party. Yeah. She's always there to the end. For our international listeners, that means to the end of the night.

33:08 Yeah. And she's disappeared at some point. Turns out she'd gone into Labor and she took herself off to the King George, the 5th Hospital camper down in in Sydney and on her own, on her own birthed a baby girl. Now, in all of the court transcripts, they refer to this, so names are suppressed, but they refer to this child as TR. And so we can refer to her as that ongoing if we're mentioning her again, Kelly hadn't put anything in place to in terms of like adoption arrangements or anything like that.

33:47 So. She hadn't even had any like prenatal, prenatal care like which is, you know, that's. She'd attended. She had. It confirmed but that. Was it? That's it, Yeah, that is all. She'd attended her GP, had the pregnancy confirmed and then had not attend, had not had any other appointments. Now she was drinking throughout this time, she was participating in like a very physical contact sport. Yeah. But anyway, this baby, baby was born and like, the process of adoption commenced once she was in hospital because they were like, she she asked to see an adoption agency when she was there.

34:21 Yeah. Now very many, many, many, many, many years later, a psychiatrist assesses her. And she said that when Kelly was in hospital with the baby before the adoption or first of all, it was fostering, but then into adoption. Yeah. Before that kind of all took place, she breastfed this baby. She, you know, had naps with the baby. She was caring for it. Yeah. For her, the baby was in with her in her room. Yeah. And it was like the mother of any other child who is then going to be taking that child home.

35:01 Yeah, the notes really indicate, you know, like a a normal, you know, new mother interacting with her baby and very caring. And so no signs of any, any issues. But yeah, I wanted to adopt her out, which, you know, at 19, like, you know, no partner not knowing, you know, what was going on with all of that and who the father was. That's not unheard of. But yeah, so it seemed to them on the on the surface, I guess a fairly normal situation. And that's other than the fact that she hadn't got any family or anyone coming to visit her with this new baby there was no one clearly knew about.

35:34 Her pregnancy but she told the hospital that her family were Interstate and that the and she was just visiting Sydney for, that's right, three weeks or something and gave her an address for Perth didn't. She that she lived in Perth. Yeah. And that the father of the child was based in Perth as well. Yeah. And that he wanted the child to be adopted, but that he. Oh, no, I think she said that he was living internationally, actually. And she said Duncan Gillies was the father of the child. That's the name that she gave, even though we have seen it has since been proven that that he is not the biological father.

36:09 And yeah, but it's just lie after lie after lie it. Took approximately about 14 months for them to finally process that adoption because her of her lies and also due to like not being able to find the father because you can't just adopt A child out. I mean, you've got to consider both parents, you know, biological parents of this child. And so they wanted to try and contact the father to get his approval as well for the adoption. So it caused quite a number of issues for Kelly at the time, like trying to do that.

36:39 She'd give like half truths as well. So she named him. She named Duncan Gillies. Yeah. Now, granted, she may have thought he was the father. I don't know. But she named him, and she gave them his phone number with one digit. Wrong, Yeah. She gave them them an address that was fictitious. She gave him them an address. A previous an old. Address, an old address that was like, instead of being 75 A, it was like 7A or something like that. So it was like almost, right. Yeah. You know, she, she just like dropped a number or added a number or changed a number.

37:14 She this was her patent. This is what she did when she was fabricating these stories. Yeah. Now eventually the child was adopted and you know, this is moving ahead quite a bit. But when this whole matter went to court, they were able to find and prove the paternity of this child. We don't know who that is. That person's name has been suppressed. We know that the child is well, the little girl is well, TR is well and living with her adopted parents and her life is grand. Yeah. So that's a really nice outcome to a really sort of rocky and weird start to life for that, for that little girl.

37:54 Yeah. It doesn't stop there. No, no, by no means. In early 1996, Kelly begins her career as a teacher, so she's working at a private school. But while she's working in that capacity, she's also still competing at a fairly high level in water polo. And she during this time, like very early in 1996, she goes to the World Championships in Canada with her junior national team and they receive a silver medal. So this was like a world championship type event. And like they're looking at this stage of bringing water polo into the Sydney 2000 Olympics.

38:38 So they're really sort of trying to garner women's water polo. They're trying to really garner a lot of interest around it. And I guess like, I think we spoke about this a little bit earlier, but was that an aspiration of Kelly's or not? I, I don't really know. But obviously it was a passion of her. She's still continuing this through, you know, when she's working full time and having other commitments and she was actually coaching the water polo team at this at the school as well. All right. Yeah, Yeah.

39:05 Yeah, what else happens in 1996? Well, she falls pregnant again, doesn't she? She does, Yeah. So again. She's in a relationship still at this time with Duncan Gillies, and she again, nobody knows that she's pregnant. She doesn't tell a soul, including Duncan. They're still sleeping with each other. Spoon. Spooning and, you know, having a really great time of it and not not figuring out that she's actually up the Duff again, no. But again, again, it's all whispers. Everyone is talking about it in, you know, in the water polo team.

39:45 So they all know, but they all know. Say anything again? Again, Yeah, on the 12th of September in 1996, Kelly gives birth to a daughter named Tegan at Auburn Hospital in Western Sydney. This is I don't even know how to start to unpack this to explain it to people, but I'll we'll go with. Her story for now. And then we can come back, can't we? I think, I think that's a good idea. Yeah. So she gives birth to this baby daughter and again, she nurtures the child. She breastfeeds the child. She's in hospital for two days.

40:21 Well. Just go back one little step prior to her giving birth. She is, again, she's never told anyone. So there's certain commitments she has that she has to fulfill to I guess continue her life as the way it is. One of those things being like there's a wedding coming up that she's, you know, her whole family is going to be at, obliged to be at. And so she knows this date of this wedding is looming and it's close to within weeks of sort of, I guess her due date for this baby that no one knows about.

40:51 But it's getting so close that she's like, I'm not going to be able to get to this wedding if I don't or I'm going to be looking very pregnant maybe at this wedding. So she is pretty keen to get this baby out and sort of, I guess done with. So she actually goes along to one hospital to ride hospital and and says that she's 38 weeks and I want to be induced. I'm in terrible pain, my back's killing me. I've just this has been a horrible pregnancy and I need to be. Ready to I need to be induced. They wouldn't induce her.

41:24 There are a number of reasons, Yeah. So the first thing is she was 38 weeks. There's no need for an induction. She was medically. Otherwise, well. And she'd also said this was her first pregnancy. She said it was her first pregnancy and she also had no documentation for that hospital, so it's not like she was seeing an obstetrician there. They had no medical records for her. They were like, well, we can't. We need to do a lot more, you know, than just admit you and induce you, given you 38 weeks.

41:49 Yeah, anyway. So she left, came back, tried again with them, didn't work. They said no, still not going to induce you. She went to ended up at Auburn Hospital where she told them at that point that she was 40 weeks pregnant. So so they were like, oh, well, at 40 weeks pregnant, you know, like, Yep, probably more likely that they're going to be able to induce her, which they did. They induced her and she ended up giving her birth to baby taken at Auburn Hospital instead. And once that she gave birth, they sort of realized that she wasn't as far along as they thought.

42:18 But that happens, I guess. You don't. No, it doesn't. That doesn't happen. She had, as you said, she had a commitment to get to who What? No, no, I'm sorry. If as a as a mother, as a mother, you want what's best for your baby. Absolutely. And if that is going to term, if that is whatever, whatever that is, you would think that would be your motivation right now. She had too many lies, too many secrets and too much going on to have the baby's best interest at her. Oh yeah, no, she was thinking about it was more about the secrecy.

42:51 And keeping up appearances like her fucking family have done all her life. So I cannot even believe that the hospital went with this. But anyway, they did, yeah. And. Surely they do a scan and they could have talked. I don't know, like at that stage of pregnancy, like maybe she was measuring slightly bigger, who knows, Who knows. Anyway, they've done what they've done and she's had the induction and had the baby just in the nick of time to go to the wedding two days later. Well, she was in hospital.

43:21 I think she went in for a night and the next day was the wedding and she was like, I need to get out of here. She was urgently trying to leave. So she tried to be discharged and I think there was a bit of conjecture around that, Yeah. And she ended up actually just leaving hospital with baby Tegan without even speaking with the nurses. So there were several things that hadn't happened that should have happened in that time frame before she was discharged. One of those things is a Guthrie test. Yeah.

43:51 That happens on every newborn in Australia. Yeah. And that is a heel prick test that that tests for lots of different genetic conditions. And it is just something that is stock standard done on. It's called like the heel prick test. It's done on every newborn baby. Those Guthrie cards are stored indefinitely. And they have in the past been able to inform police with like you can extract DNA from them. It's just a dry blood spot test, extract DNA. But because baby Tegan never had that done, we don't have any DNA for her.

44:27 Apparently, the room that that Kelly was in during her time at Auburn Hospital had like, a fire escape attached to it. Just keep that in mind. Yeah, Kelly's story is that on that day she walked out of so sorry, a man by the name of Andrew Norris, who was the father of this child, came up and was going to take responsibility for the child. The back story of that is that he and his partner Mel were unable to have babies and were trying to have babies and were very, very excited to bring this baby into their into their care.

45:10 And it was mutually agreed among the parties that they would take baby Tegan home. So Kelly's story is that Andrew came up to her room, walked down, they walked down together with baby Tegan into the foyer of the hospital in the waiting area where Mel and Andrew's mother was in. The were in the waiting room waiting to take this baby home. Yep. There are several stories then about what happened. First story is that he drove her, Andrew drove her and dropped her at Duncan Gilly's house, Yep. Another story is that she got a taxi.

45:44 Yep, I think there was even a third. I can't remember whether there was a third or was it just the two. Anyway, she then says that she went back to Duncan's house because she needed to pick up her suit, her outfit for the wedding. She then went to her mum and dad's place, which is where she met Duncan and they went on to the wedding, Duncan and the rest of the family because they were all going to get up. But. She wore a white suit. It's giving total Meghan Markle vibes. You know when she bloody walks out to, you know, show show baby Archie to the Queen and she's literally given birth 24 hours before and she's in a freaking white dress.

46:22 I. Hate they make them do that anyway, but yeah, just. What white Now? The other thing that's worth noting is Tegan was actually born by cesarean section. Oh my God I literally was gonna say I can't imagine if she even had AC section. Holy cow. Oh God. So she stand upright? Yep. She has had major abdominal surgery now two days before. Realize that watching that video clip of her at the wedding, because there's obviously a videographer at the wedding. You can see her, a footage of her, which you know, confirms that she did go to this wedding.

46:58 That's where she was on that date. You see her walking through that sort of woman who's just given birth and via C-section. In a white suit. Yeah. In. She's, as you said, she's standing upright. Like all my friends who've had C sections, you're sort of a bit hunched. Hunched, I couldn't even walk like down the corridor holding on to like, you know, they've got the baby in the wheelie, like in the basset thing, right? I remember walking down to the nurses station, which would have been probably 20 meters down from my room, trying to like, and I'm using like the nurse was with me.

47:27 So I was like almost using the wheelie thing as like a frame to walk with, you know, but they weren't letting me like just hold it because obviously it's not safe. But yeah, because you needed sort of so it helped support to walk like. That makes sense. Like all of your like stabilizing core muscles have been cut cut in half. Yeah, or even laying in bed, like in flat back I was like had the bed up like because you just, I don't know, you want to hunch over. Yeah. I mean, even I've had both of mine were natural deliveries.

47:56 Yeah. And even then, like, I remember walking from the delivery suite to my room and thinking, Oh my God, they're going to let me walk. Like I felt like I couldn't even walk. Well, I see. I couldn't. I couldn't even feel my legs.

48:09 There's no walking. I was like, what are these things like? Let alone. Let alone like all the things that happen. After. Birth and the fluids that are coming out, I'm not only talking like from down there, I'm talking about like Milky sort of stuff. And a couple of days later, her milk would be at least starting to come. In that's the thing, like I mean she's not taking a medication to stop that from occurring like. Because she was could be breastfeeding. Yeah, she was breastfeeding baby taken in in hospital.

48:39 So that would have stimulated the production of milk. Yeah, that. Oh God, that blows my mind. I I had it just. Leaking from. Bad enough thinking that she'd naturally delivered, but say second. Oh God, yeah, OK. So there's photos of her at the wedding, as you said, there's video footage of her at the wedding. She's in a white suit with a white hat and she's having a grand old time, OK? That was two days after giving birth. Yeah, yeah. We hear nothing else. No, that's that. That she's. Kind of back to her, you know, back to her normal life.

49:13 Yeah, apparently after each birth she would have. So in terms of like perceptions from her friends and family, she'd obviously developed a little bit of a system about how she would disappear for these two or three days to have these births without anyone knowing. Yeah. So her being gone for the couple of days, no one really questioned it. I guess she was an adult. Like, you know, what do you what do you do? I'm. Sorry. Someone, I mean, she was 20 something. She was 21 years old at the time. You come and go when you're 21.

49:40 Don't. You. She's still living with her parents I believe. Yes. But maybe they thought she was at Duncan's house and Duncan thought she was at home. I don't know that people would think to question that. I found that sad. It is sad. Yeah, It is really, really sad because again, she was alone in that situation. She didn't ask or reach out for support from anyone. No, I just can't even think, like, OK, maybe you know, your parents are. They are who they are. You think you'd have a close girlfriend or even your brother.

50:09 I don't know somebody who you think could support you through it. Your boyfriend. Well, yeah, wait for all accounts. Like, you know, why couldn't Duncan have been the father of this baby that she could have confessed to and said we need to sort this out? Like, and that's the thing. You shouldn't feel alone in a pregnancy because there are two people it takes to make it. Absolutely. To this day we don't know who the father of Tegan is she. So when I say she, Kelly claims that it was Duncan again.

50:38 So she claimed the first pregnancy was dunked, the second pregnancy was sorry, the first live birth was Duncan and the second live birth was Duncan. But then second live birth. But then she says Andrew. Targus, yes, but that, that comes later. Yeah, it's it's her web of lies is so confusing and so hard to keep track of. Absolutely. But anyway, yeah, OK, so we're going to Fast forward now to February of 1999. Yep, Kelly finds herself pregnant again. She's 25 weeks along yeah, at this point. And she flies into Queensland to attend a an abortion clinic there that does late term abortions.

51:21 Yes, but when she gets there, they will not terminate the pregnancy because she's too far along. Yeah, yeah. So I think they this this because. This pregnancy is viable at that point, as we were saying in 2224 weeks, we're not sure exactly which is, but 25, yeah, is definitely viable. You're beyond, you're beyond that. And look, there are medical reasons that people can terminate beyond that, but obviously this clinic wasn't sort of facilitating that and. From what they obviously they did their scans and things like that to find this pregnancy was viable for a 25 week pregnancy.

51:54 And I mean. He said apparently she rocked up to this clinic and said she was 13 weeks. And then they they looked at her and it went did a scan and we're like, oh, you're actually like 25 weeks. And once again she's saying it's her first pregnancy, which I mean, we've both had like 2 full term pregnant pregnancies with each one your body, you know, the muscles and things like that change and you, I mean, you know, people have had three and four pregnancies. You carry in different ways. You tend to like pop earlier and things like that.

52:24 I mean for. Sure. Like even as you said, I've only had two pregnancies. Yeah, my with my first, I don't think you could even tell I was pregnant until I was 20 weeks. Yeah, same. But with my second, I remember at 14 weeks going, Oh yeah, I think. How about that? Yeah, I was about 16 weeks, weeks and was like, oh, I'm gonna need that pregnancy. Yeah, thing my genes all of a sudden a lot earlier than last time. Exactly. Yeah. And everyone and everyone I talk to feels the same way that, you know, particularly mums.

52:47 I know I've had three by that third. It's like, and I know of another particular just recently who was pregnant with her 4th and I reckon at around about 10 weeks you could tell she was pregnant. Not that we were ever, ever saying. Anything because her baby wasn't coming out of her at the time. But she's a you know, this is her 4th pregnancy. We're all kind of like we think we maybe she'll be telling us soon. That's exciting. But yeah. And eventually she told us like, you know, we're like, yeah, we kind of thought so there's.

53:12 No hiding and hiding at that point. So yeah, by her. This is her third live pregnancy. You would think that her body would be showing this differently, but again, told no one. And yeah, I, I. Don't know. It's bizarre. It does, yeah. In mid 1999 she gives birth for the third time and this time the it's a boy. So in the court transcripts they refer to this, this young boy as AJ. Well again, she's done no prenatal care. So she's had the pregnancy confirmed very early on. We know this from her Medicare records and subsequent interviews with her GP.

53:56 So again, so she's found out that she was pregnant early enough for long, but didn't Well, I think that like actually. For this pregnancy, I I couldn't find the date. Yeah. That she attended the doctor with the first pregnancy. She attended very early. Yes. With Tegan, she attended very early. When I say very early, like in the 1st 10 weeks, yeah, yeah, with this one, I actually couldn't find a date. I'm not curious as to when she again, like you would know earlier to me, like knowing what that felt like and all those things because by 25 weeks you're definitely feeling that baby move around.

54:28 Oh, for sure. Like for sure. Yeah, so she's been refused, obviously, the termination, the late term termination. So she has no choice but to proceed with the pregnancy. Yeah. Again, she's had no antenatal care. She has made no previous arrangements for adoption or anything like that. So she gives birth to this baby boy and again, breastfeeds him, cares for him while they're in hospital and asks to see a social worker regarding. Sorry, She asks to see an adoption agency to sort of get that process going.

55:05 Yeah, knowing with her first live birth that this can take a really long time, she was really keen to sort of get things. Moving along. Yeah, Yeah. This hospital had a policy that so I think there was a social worker involved, not not the one who eventually will come to, but yeah, who has made a statement in the notes basically saying that she was very emotional about this decision, but it was the right decision for her. At the time being that she was 24 years old, she wasn't in a long term relationship.

55:33 So by this stage she had stopped her relationship with Duncan Gillies there when in terms of timing, we're not quite sure whether they were together at the start of her pregnancy or whether they'd broken up just beforehand. It has also been proven that Duncan is not the father of AJ, so they know who the father of AJ is. Again, that's been proven by DNA and paternity testing, and it's not Duncan Gillies. So he's been with her for a really long time. She's fallen pregnant three times throughout the course of their relationship and he's not fathered.

56:08 One of them no, but he's definitely been having sexual relations with ships with her that. She admits it and he admits it as in like, there's no conjecture of that. He They both say they were actively like engaging in sexual activity that could have resulted in a pregnancy. But. Also him touching her body in weight and seeing her body that would you not realize or say something? Yeah, it's weird. It's weird. Really, really weird. Yeah. So with this adoption agency, the lady who was in charge of this process for this baby, she tries so hard to get a straight story out of Kelly and is getting nothing, getting nowhere.

56:51 In the end, she actually had to hunt down Duncan Gillies, who is the name again that that Kelly gave to the adoption agency as being the father. Yeah, of this baby. She told the the adoption agency worker that he was a rugby player and the she she haunted around. Yeah, Google. I don't even know if like Google searched whatever she. Around. Yeah, I think maybe, maybe just. But whatever she did, she found him at a certain rugby club and wrote him a letter through the club and eventually it got to him.

57:29 Yeah. He then contacted the adoption agency and went, oh, I don't know nothing about this. What? What's going on? Yeah. And this kind of like triggered a bit of a oh, what's going on? What's actually happening here? Yeah. So she decided to contact docs. So the Department of Child Services. Yeah. And they put a child protection worker on the case to just do an investigation, a bit of a welfare type of situation. And they assigned a man by the name of John Borovnik. Now tell me what you think about him.

57:58 We've seen he's in the Exposed documentary, he's interviewed. What are your thoughts about him? I find him very. Interesting in what way? So I've had a little bit to do with child protection workers and it's hit and miss of like the kind of commitment I think they have of like how well they're tied by a lot of legal restraints and what they can and can't do in situations. I find them interesting people generally. This guy to me became quite obsessed with this. And I get it to a degree of like, this is a very fascinating case of someone who's very unusual, but he's getting like Tegan's name tattooed on him.

58:41 Yeah, that's the bit that got me. So when he's being interviewed, I think he seems like a really lovely person. Like as in he's, you can tell he cares, right? You can. Yeah, yeah. But to an extent that I find to like generally speaking, child protection workers, they really keep themselves quite removed. You'd have to. And you and I, I respect that because I think you'd become quite, I don't know, callous maybe. I don't know. It would do you? Yeah. I don't know that I could ever do that work. No disrespect whatsoever.

59:16 Hats off to them. Absolutely. But this guy goes the complete opposite way. Yeah, and I find that then really hard because I want more passion from these people sometimes. But he's gone too far. Yeah, the fact that he had her name attached to him, that really like. It really it kind of just it does. Did it give you the IT? It did, yeah. Same. Yeah. Yeah. I'm like, you've gone too far. But yeah, thank goodness for him, because. Yeah, yeah, you. Don't think so. I just think he, I think he's taking it too far, but I know that what he's discovered and I think it needed to be discovered, absolutely.

59:51 Because otherwise we wouldn't even know that Tegan was a missing person. So what he's put together is, so he's assisting the adoption agency from a child protection standpoint. He's assisting them facilitate all of this. Yeah. And he interviews and has a chat with Kelly, and she tells him that this is her first pregnancy. To his credit, he then goes and looks up. Previous history and they find that first adoption. Well, I think it was one hospital they rang something about he rang and said he wanted to find out about her 96 pregnancy.

1:00:30 And they went, oh, no, you mean 95. That's right. And then and then he went, what do you mean 95? No, she was there in 96, which is when she gave birth to Tegan. And they went, oh, you know, she's also had a pregnancy in 95. And that was when it kind of all went. And they're like, hold on, hold on. Where's this other baby? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so he's then said to Kelly, look, where is this baby? Like what have you? Like, where is she? Yeah. And he, she tells him the cock and bull story, in my opinion, about this Andrew Norris.

1:01:00 I don't even know what to. Call him yet? Well, originally in her first interview, she calls him Andrew Norris. Yeah, Yeah. That was her first interview with the police, not with. Not with him even, but so I'm assuming she said Morris to him as well at that point. I don't know. Who the hell knows? She's she's given him a name. Yeah. And he can't find anything to do with this. And he says to Kelly, if you can't show me or give me an address or find me this child, I have no choice but to report her as a missing person to the police.

1:01:30 And Kelly just kind of lets that happen. That's what you've got to do. That's what you've got to do. That's what happened. She really sticks to that of like, well, you know, that's fine because I'm. I've told you home words, you know. Well, I've told you everything I can tell you. And what else do you want me to? What else do you want me to tell you? This is Yeah, go for it. Yeah, She's so interested. So interesting. In December of 2000, Kelly's pregnant again. It's a time to a new. Boyfriend to a boyfriend and that they're engaged, you get married.

1:02:04 She's 24. 626 Yep. Yep, 26 years of age, they're engaged, they're in a in a relationship, a long term relationship. The heat that's the father of this child is the only person she's sleeping with. You know that she's settled, she's in a, in a, you know, working a job that she's loving. Have you seen what her mom and dad's reaction to this? So this is the first pregnancy she's, like, telling people about? Yeah. Did you see what her mom and dad's reaction to this pregnancy was? No. Oh, well, you're not married.

1:02:32 Like. Oh, yeah. So they they weren't, they weren't unhappy, but they wanted. Them happy they wanted the wedding first. Yeah, they wanted it to look legit because appearances matter. Oh God. That poor girl. I really what Kelly goes on to say, though, is that upon the birth of this child who is a girl, yeah, that, you know, she brought, brought so much joy and love into their family and everybody loves her. And she, it made her realize that, you know, everything's OK. You know, everything works out the way it's meant to work out in the end.

1:03:04 Yeah. The police don't. So the report in 1999 by John Borovnik, the docs worker, he that kind of goes nowhere for a couple of years. Yeah. So it's not until February of 2001 that they start the investigation into Tegan's disappearance. When I say they, I mean the police, NSW Police. Unfortunately, this is actually handed to Manly Police Station to handle in the first instance and that is the police station that Kelly's dad worked at and had this very big presence and reputation in. Yeah, they're also going through a whole lot of stuff to do with some corrupt police officers there was.

1:03:45 Like half of the people there were like, terminated and whatever because it was like, full of corruption and they were taking. Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah. That's. A whole nother story. Oh yeah, yeah. So this goes straight to a Coppet manly and he there's it's questionable whether or not loyalty. To he knew he'd worked with Rob. Yeah. So whether that kind of, you know, went, Oh yeah, I don't know if I want to work on that like kind of thing may have happened. I don't know about that because the way that like you can see interviews, the interview tapes with him and I think he just takes it really lightly.

1:04:17 Lightly. Yeah. I think he's they're investigating the disappearance of a child and he just kind of like, I mean, I get you. You're gathering information at the start. He knows nothing. So OK, you're not going to be like hard and fast straight on. But in this interview, she says that Andrew Morris with an M for Mary, Yeah Yeah, is the father of the child. And and she tells the story about handing baby Tegan over in the hospital for you. It's kind of taken at face value that that's what happened and they almost sort.

1:04:48 Of go OK and they're like, Oh well, we just need to find this Andrew Morris guy and it'll all be good. Yeah, we can close the case. Yeah, in correct. So do you think too like maybe there has a bit of an attitude of this? So this is a brand new baby that no one knew her, no one knew she existed. And I wonder whether there's a little bit of a layer of for some people, like if you don't know the person, you don't know, you're removed from it. There's no connection of like it's not a missing person because they weren't a person.

1:05:16 Do you know what I mean? I. Totally get that because my thing is, and even when I was explaining to Peter this case last night, and this was definitely a thought that I have that I have not seen addressed anywhere, there was never a birth certificate filed for Tegan Lane. Yep. So does she exist in the eyes of the law? But. But what I can't understand is how can you have a baby in a hospital and then not submit the birth certificate without it being followed up by the Registry of birth, Deaths and Marriages?

1:05:50 Yeah, or followed up by some. But the hospital, I don't know who has responsibility in that jurisdiction. But surely because I know a friend of mine who had a baby and she just kind of like, in the throes of it, forgot to like that she filled it out, just hadn't posted it off yet. Yeah. And she actually got a letter to say you must register this baby's birth. Within. 12 weeks or whatever of birth, yeah. Five weeks or whatever the hospital submit whatever to Yeah, like birthdays, marriages, yeah.

1:06:17 And then the paperwork has to come from you to marry that up. So they sort of have this open case kind of thing. So did no one follow that up with baby Teagan? Yeah, mustn't have have. Yeah, but I guess back in the night at sea, I mean, I go back to like, I mean, this is a long time before like my dad's birth certificate is fucked up. Like there's there's been name changes on that that you can actually, he can actually pull out pieces of paper basically with different names on it. You know, there's weird stuff that's going on in the past in birthdays and marriages and whether or not computers would only really just really new computer systems would have been new to it.

1:06:48 I don't know whether or not it's just got lost in the system. It must have because it has never been followed. Up. No, no. SO. We've got a baby who's been born that has no birth certificate and record of it. No record. Yeah. I mean, the only. This is the thing, though, the only record that we like that we know she existed and that she was born is because there are hospital notes. Yeah. And because Kelly named her. Yeah. Then her name is on all of that, all of the hospital notes and documentation.

1:07:18 Yeah. Yeah. So in nothing much comes of that after the interview, not after that first interview in June of on the 20th of June in 2005, an inquest into Tegan's disappearance and suspected death commences. Now this inquest is interesting and I think look, I think at the end of the day, it ended where it needed to end. But there was a lot of, I don't know, a lot of in and out, back and forth, a lot of not quite truths, a lot of things that were not investigated properly that were being presented.

1:08:03 Not every single person who had involvement in the case was interviewed or brought to the court for the inquest. I think it was somewhat lacking in certain respects. However, the conclusion of the inquest was that on the balance of probability, baby Tegan was dead and a homicide investigation needed to be entered into by NSW Police. I struggle with that. Why? Where's the evidence that she's dead? Where is she? That's where I like I, I fully agree with the coroner concluding that there needs to be an investigation 100% and a prop up full investigation, but I I just can't see how you can conclude that she's dead.

1:08:50 You don't know. No, OK, I I disagree, I think. There's enough evidence to prove it, I think. She's not dead. I think on the balance of probability she is dead. I don't disagree, but there's reasonable doubt. Oh, oh, don't get me wrong. Criminally, yeah, absolutely. And there is reasonable. Doubt the threshold of a coroner's court saying she's dead. No, it is on the balance of probability for a coronial inquest. So I I fully agree with the fact that on the balance of probability this child is dead.

1:09:24 I disagree that it is beyond a reasonable doubt in a Criminal Court that she is dead, because there is no proof either way. I. Guess that's where, yeah, like so if that's what the threshold is, then OK, because I just, this is where I get really lost of how to comprehend this outcome of all this. Because there are so many lies, there's so much to I'm so much. And you can like you can choose to believe that which will which will lead you to that conclusion, or you can choose to believe the other side of things which will lead you to a completely different.

1:09:57 Conclusion Or there can just be a whole other story going on here completely. And that could be truth too. And absolutely, I just really struggle. I struggle with that being the coroner's outcome. I really, I do. I understand. Like, yeah, I don't know if I can come at it because I just don't feel like, I feel like there's enough. I feel as though there isn't enough evidence to suggest that that can be the only outcome. So what the coroner said was that due to the constraints of time around needing to get to this wedding, which she had to get to because she had to save face and appearances were everything, he completely acknowledged that.

1:10:37 He said she was caught in a, in a, in a basically in a zone or in a wall. Exactly she exactly she was backed against a wall. She had nothing else to do. Yep, I do agree with that. So I guess it's that threshold of what it is that. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. OK. All right, OK. Yeah. I'll bend, need to bend. You can think what you want to think, but I I think, I reckon the coroner nailed it. OK, I think he got it right. Yeah, I mean 100% more investigation needed to happen to this. Like I absolutely.

1:11:10 It's just it's just whether or not that whether categorically she's dead I. Just I think the term that he used is most likely dead. Right. OK, that I can come out OK. Yeah, yeah. Cool. In December of 20. Oh, sorry. So in February of 2026, at the conclusion of the of the inquest, yeah, it's, you know, the the matter is referred over to the unsolved homicide squad. So it's a whole case unit essentially, Yeah. And this is when. Can we just go back to 101 other bit just before like when they they interviewed her just before it was going to go to the coroner.

1:11:45 There's an interview that it's on tape of her beings and she's basically putting putting to her one final time like I need more information on this Kelly. Otherwise it's going to be going to the coroner, which makes it public. Oh yeah. And her reaction to that I find really fascinating. Like she's so like just they say to her, did you kill your baby? And she's like, no, I did not do that. Like, no, like. And then when they say to her, you know, all right, well, if you can't give me any more information, they really, really give her every opportunity to come clean and say more.

1:12:16 And in a very, I think a very good way like that. We're not blaming her on anything. They're like, come on, you can just tell us what happened, Give us the names of people, tell us more information. And then we don't have to go down that path. We can just keep investigating kind of thing. But they were at a crossroads of like, we've got nothing else other than your lies, tell us the truth sort of stuff. And we can keep moving or we've got to go to the coroner's report and make this something else.

1:12:38 And, and she just, yeah, she's like, no, you can't make this public. I don't want people knowing like, you can't do that to me. Like it's it was all about the perception again. And she's, she actually says in that as well, she's like, what will my mum and dad? Think yeah, immediately. It's what will Mum and Dad think. Yeah, yeah. Well, her mum and dad, Oh my God, we haven't even gotten close to them. Yet. Oh God no. Fuck. So yeah. So we're now at a point where she's being interviewed again by the police.

1:13:06 This is her second interview and is she pregnant at this time? Or had she just had the just? Had the baby maybe so I think she's. Yeah, got another baby at the. Yeah. And she was about to get married. Yeah. And she actually, they by this stage as well, they'd wiretapped her phone and they'd put listening devices in her car and in her house. Yeah. And she rings a friend. So she actually, she must have had the baby because she rings a friend and says, can you look after my baby? I've got to go to a dress fitting.

1:13:36 But it turned out she actually was going to be interviewed by the police about the homicide of. She didn't tell anybody about any of this. Still going on She's. Like nobody knows. Still got this other life sort of stuff that she lives her life and then I've got to deal with this stuff in the background that she's not telling anyone about, no. During the phone taps. I found that really, really interesting, the conversations between Kelly and her mom on those phone taps, because her mom is absolutely questioning how this could happen.

1:14:05 She genuinely says that she didn't know anything about her daughter, who was living in her home, being pregnant freaking five times at this point. Yeah, she. She even said something like along the lines of oh, like, so you're saying like some a single bloke or some guy once wanted to raise the baby. Like, that just doesn't make sense, Kelly like. She's very cold. Oh, she's a, she's a very interesting person, Yeah. I mean, she has nothing to do with this. Like she's not absolutely by no means, however like yeah, in the situation, but she, I mean, she's definitely played a role in raising Kelly in a certain way and I. If Kelly obviously felt she couldn't go to her parents and go, I'm in this really dreadful situation, yeah, Help, yeah.

1:14:51 You know. I. I need some support, get that by having seen the bits of pieces of who she is and I look, I don't know her at all, but I don't think you'd feel comfortable going and talking to her about anything emotional, that's for damn sure. No, she's very like Hardline and and look at the dad is he's a bit goofy or something like he's a bit of an interesting character in and of himself. But and I can imagine he just he just says what his wife says. Like he's obviously toeing the party line there.

1:15:22 They are adamant that they knew nothing about these pregnancies. But what I find interesting in these phone taps between Kelly and Sandra is Kelly will repeat every question that he's asked of her. And it's like she has to formulate an answer. So she repeats the question. So for example, her mum's like, well, what happened to the baby? And she goes, what, what happened to the baby? Oh, well, I gave it to Andrew and and I found that like in in these phone taps, I'm like, oh, that's really interesting.

1:15:56 Yeah, right. She's. Bidding her time. She's giving herself a time to think about what was my lie? Yeah, you know, because. If it was the truth, it. Would just roll off the tongue. It was, you know, you don't have to think about the truth. Yeah, but she has to think about the stories that she's told and the names that she's given and make sure she gets pens and is not mixed. Up. She almost doesn't think about the story that she's told. She just tells a new lie every time. And I feel like that she doesn't have this understanding of that.

1:16:23 It needs to make sequential sense. Like, otherwise people won't believe you because she doesn't seem to worry about that in her lies. Yeah. It's so fascinating. It's so, so true.

1:16:37 Just this is going back to the inquest, but I found this really interesting little bit of information that came came up. So when they were during the inquest, there were 10s like hundreds, probably of thousands of pieces of paper, that of documentation that the coroner went through. And part of that was they did, the police did, or the council assisting and the police in their brief of evidence searched every school in Australia for Tegan, because by this stage she would have been school aged. Yeah.

1:17:11 Now they looked for females born on the 12th of September in or thereabouts or thereabouts. I think they gave days either either side. Yeah. They found a girl by the name of Tegan Chapman with the same date of birth. Her birth certificate listed an Ellen Norris as the father. Yep. And so they thought, oh, my God, you've found her. We've found her. We've actually found her. DNA testing proved it wasn't her. Yeah. But, well, coincidence. What a coincidence. Yeah, what a coincidence. Yeah. So look, I think, you know, things are exhaustive in that respect.

1:17:49 They've then gone to trial, basically. Yeah. So they have. The police have done everything in their power to try and find Tegan, to try and find Andrew Norris Morris and for somebody to come forward. Yeah, they have very. Public, you know, once it hit the media and stuff too, that I mean, if you, if, if anyone happened to know someone who fit this category, you know, someone would have nudged them to step forward if they were in Australia and. If you were a decent human being and you saw that somebody you knew who was the biological mother of your child was potentially going to end up in prison because you're hiding for some unknown reason, that there's no reason for him to hide.

1:18:32 He's done nothing wrong. He's the father of the child. He's biologically, you know, he's legally allowed to have this baby. He didn't register the birth. So he would be, there'd be a few things he could be, I guess, held accountable for, but they're nothing compared to. Using sure, they'd all be pardoned if they found Tegan and oh thank God we found it. Exactly. There'd be there'd be a few things that he would have needed to check boxes on and that he hasn't that have done. And that's where that story just sort of starts to get a bit.

1:18:57 It really doesn't, really. And like that this is the thing that gets me. Yeah. This is what makes me think personally that Tegan is not alive. She's never been registered, had a birth registered. Now you know. In Australia it is really difficult to do anything without a birth certificate these days. You cannot open a bank account, you cannot get a job, you cannot get a passport, you cannot register a child to school. And Medicare, like there's nothing's been medical, nothing on Medicare. Has been.

1:19:26 And you can't tell me that a child in their entire life does not need to at least go to the doctor. Yeah. 20 times. Probably through a childhood if, you know, that's just a standard thing. Exactly. Let alone once. Yeah, so either Andrew Norris Morris is an incredibly neglectful father. Or the child was taken overseas. That's possible because apparently in 1996 a a very an early infant like so I think if you are under three months of age, you could actually travel out of the country without a passport.

1:19:58 Yeah, yeah. So that that is certainly. A possibility. So records were checked though, and I don't think they ever found that an Andrew Norris Morris had left the country, no, within that three months. But if that's. It I mean, that's again, if the name is correct, that's exactly so we can't rule out entirely. That that was. Possible at the time. Yep. But what I'm saying is by the name Kelly Gay, Yes. By that name. Yeah, nobody left. No, the country. But yeah, Yep. By that name. Yep. So OK, we're the.

1:20:29 Stories definitely not true there. There's I think there's elements of truth. Potentially the guys name was Andrew but not Norris. So at the end of that exposed document, yeah, that comes out essentially, Kelly basically says because Caro, by this stage, is frustrated. Wouldn't you be? You're in a web of these lies. Nobody knows what what's truth, what's not, what's half lies, what's not. That's what. Really is frustrating about this is everyone's trying to help her. Everyone she's the one reaching out to get.

1:20:58 Help from these people and people are actually trying super hard to help her out here and she's not helping herself. No, because then to sit in that interview and finally admit that, well, maybe I've got the, you know, his surname wrong. Oh, fuck. We we're talking, you know, 13-14 years down the track, Kelly like and you've and you've been. Adamant that it's no, it's definitely Andrew Norris. Definitely, definitely, definitely. And then at the, you know, at the Last Post, you're like, oh, OK, well, maybe it wasn't his name was Andrew, but maybe, maybe it wasn't Norris.

1:21:28 Fucking. Are you fucking kidding me? How much money and time and resource and energy and how many lives have been affected by this? Definitely the police, the homicide detective investigating this. She ended up quitting the force after this due to PTSD from this case. Now she the previous case to this that she investigated, Yeah. Was. The rape and murder of a three-year old boy. And that didn't. Break that didn't break her. This. Broke her. This is the one that broke her. Yeah, I I get it's sometimes it's layer upon layer and at this, you know, this world that breaks the camel's.

1:22:03 Back she's not the only one who who says the same thing. I mean just just. A case, yes. He he like he was up for a time and age, but again, he was like, I'm not doing any more criminal cases. I. Cannot do another criminal case. After that, I'm done. So many people have been broken by this. Yeah, and I do. I get it but at the same time I'm like she just is not helping herself. No, she's not she was up for parole on the 12th of May this year in oh sorry, in 2024 yeah, but she due to the new no body no parole laws in the in NSW, which were actually brought about for the Lindors in case they really.

1:22:38 Well, they were already existed, but they were able to be used discretionally. So this is where I get a little I'm I have a little bit of an issue with this. So discretionally it could have been used at any point. You could say that a parole board have the right to say you've not shown us a body. You there's enough evidence to suggest you know where it is. So therefore you don't get parole. But now the law is there's no question about it. If there's no body, you don't get parole. There's no no if buts about it.

1:23:10 So that different that law could still exist and still be used against Chris Dawson without it being compulsory. So why did they do that? Because. Because it was the IT was they basically I think they'd fucked up so much so. But so the government were like, Oh yeah, yeah, we're we're shutting this down. We're gonna do something about this. And so I I feel I honestly, I do agree with it's the judge in the case has written letters to the government about it. Yeah, trying to he's trying to reverse reversed because and I and I do I agree with him fully on it.

1:23:39 Yeah, at the time when I heard about this, nobody, no parole law in relation to Chris Dawson, I'm like, yeah, that needs to be in place. But now it's been explained to me how legally it works. It could have already been used. It didn't have. Really frustrating because I think in this case, you know, as as I've said already, I think she's not guilty beyond a reason, beyond a reasonable doubt. I there in I personally think that she she, I don't think she actively murdered baby Tegan. My theory is that she left the hospital.

1:24:14 She was bound by the time frame by which she needed to get to this wedding, which to her again, appearances were everything she had to get there. I think she's left baby Tegan somewhere and she's passed away in in the course of events. I mean, she was a bloody 2 day old baby who they need so much active care. She's died and has obviously been hidden somewhere that she hasn't been found. She hasn't been found. And yeah, yeah. But we don't know that. No, and I think enough in the court process, in the trial, I, I honest to God, I don't know how they came to that conclusion that there was not enough.

1:24:55 That wasn't reasonable doubt. And they've, you know, convicted her because the prosecution did not do the, their, their full job of proving that there that Tegan's dead. And that's where I was. I, I sort of query that. I think I feel like the coroner saying she's dead gives that weight to say that, you know, in that court hearing that, oh, well, she's dead. So therefore there is a body somewhere. And that's where I find that link between those two. You haven't proven that. No, And that's where I find that really hard to differentiate those two.

1:25:26 I hear what you're saying around the different thresholds of like a coroner to say it, but then I feel like it impacts a jury of irregular Joe blows of going, well, the coroner says she's dead. So then she's dead. But we can't actually. We have no evidence of that. The other thing that comes into play in a trial is there's like a lot of game playing that goes on. There were witnesses subbed in and out. Yeah. So people that we that the jury could have heard from that may have swayed them in a certain way or given more weight to an argument, we're not able to be brought before the jury.

1:25:59 Yeah. And so I think there's a lot around that, too. My God, we could literally talk about this for days because there's so much to it. I mean, there was the judge really tried to give the defence a lot of times to like another part of this was that in her trial they couldn't because they were, They're completely unrelated. The other pregnancies are completely unrelated to Tegan and her missing, Right. Yeah. So they were not to be brought up. So what did the prosecution do? Mark Tedeschi. Mark Tedeschi.

1:26:28 He we helped basically brought forward so more charges on her. These three perjury charges, which, look, they're legit. She did perjure herself. She absolutely lied 100%. There's no question about that. And the defense there, the defenses I sort of go to Kelly on this was, you know, look, you did. We're not going to lie about it. We're going to fight all of it. We'll just fight the lot. Yeah. The simple fact of the matter is very typically in these sorts of things, obviously a perjury charge is far less than a murder charge.

1:26:58 Yeah. And so you want to focus on the murder, right, To be able to get a result from that. Many, many, many times what they'll do is say, look, let's forget the little perjury charges and focus on the murder charge. And the judge was really pushing for the defence to set to put a motion forward and say can we remove the perjury charges? I think he even said I was very explicit in saying would you like to have these charges tabled? And they were like, no, no, no, it's fine, no. We're just going to go for it.

1:27:24 And he was like, Are you sure he. Really, 'cause he, and he's admitted to this day, it's gonna happen that if he had been asked to remove them, he would have? Yes. And that would have meant that none of the stuff about the other babies would have been admissible because, because those perjury charges remained, the jury got the whole salacious story of previous pregnancies. Of her terminations of her promiscuity, I don't even which I feel I don't know how promiscuity even comes into this. This is because that has literally nothing to do with the fact that she's up for a murder charge against a child she's delivered I. I have a real issue with that, that I feel like she was actually convicted of being promiscuous.

1:28:03 Like being a slut. Instead of the murder of a baby. Yeah, I I fully agree with. You I but the evidence was not there to actually convict. I'm not saying that I don't think she did or didn't murder SO. You think you think Tegan's dead? I don't know, I think she's dead. I'm I very much probably lean slightly that way. Look, her story about Andrew Norris and that there was Mel and her and his mum sitting. In the fire bit, even the Mel. Such bullshit I don't believe. Oh yeah, I'll just take on this other woman's child.

1:28:35 Yeah, yeah, yeah. You cheated on me, but let's. Raise the child from that. I think the other thing that sits uncomfortable uncomfortably with me and look, this is just the nature of society, I suppose, is that people would rather believe that Kelly killed her baby. Yeah, then that the dad would want to take responsibility for that baby without the mother being involved, without the biological mother being involved. Yes. Yeah, I think that's a question we need to ask ourselves as well. Yeah, yeah.

1:29:05 But I still think Tegan's dead. I cannot rule out that she didn't hand the baby to someone. But then where is she? Absolutely, because there's a moment where where I think it's Carol actually asks her, well, OK, So what who did you pass the baby to? You know, like tell me more about this Andrew person or whatever. And she goes, I don't have to tell you any more than what I've told you. Like she's I don't. She's very defensive. And it's almost like this break in it in that that you kind of go, there's someone she passed it to, but she's not going to change.

1:29:41 Like she's not going to tell you who it was. See, I interpreted that so differently. I thought when I saw that, that she was like, I've made-up this story and I'm within my parameters and I can't think outside of it. So don't ask me any more questions. This is my story and I'm sticking to. It. Yeah, Yeah. I don't know. Look, I have a theory of that she's walked out through that fire escape door and potentially gone near the dumpsters at the back of the hospital there and has left the baby there.

1:30:08 I I don't think she actually like, say, you know, slit a baby. I'm sorry. No, I any other agree with that? I cannot actually. I cannot have someone suggest that I don't think she has physically murdered the child. Actively murdered the child. I think she's left it somewhere, as you said, yeah, I really do. And look, that's I think that's a plausible potential story of what's gone on. But I also probably slightly less than could could also think think that there's someone who has said I'll sort the baby out for you and has taken the baby from me.

1:30:38 I can't and whether that's again got on a plane and. Then they've seen somehow been able to obtain a birth certificate for the child somewhere. I can't. Just because I can't rule it out entirely, there's no evidence to suggest. That this I'm. With that's where I can't go. Yeah, you know that didn't happen. Yeah, but I probably err on the side more of like her putting the baby somewhere. You know, we are law abiding citizens, so we don't know how you would illicitly obtain a birth certificate, but there's probably ways that you could potentially do that.

1:31:06 And then in that you would completely change their name, you could even change their date of birth and nobody would actually know. So look, I get that that that's possible. Is that likely? I don't think so. It's not as likely Like I, I will, absolutely. Yeah. You know, they agree with that. Yeah. But I just think that her being convicted I find really challenging. I don't think there was the evidence as it was was not beyond a reasonable doubt that she murdered a baby and deserved to be in jail.

1:31:34 Yeah, well, for 18 years is what she was convicted of. And now it will probably it will both like most likely be that full 18 years with no no parole due to the fact there's no body. So, yeah, so from the time she was up for parole until her full sentence was like 4 1/2 years or four years, seven months, something like that, Yeah. So she will have to serve that extra 4. Years unless things change in the meantime of that law and. She got what she got now 3 1/2 years left of her sentence. I mean, anytime you can get off at your wood, wouldn't you, I mean.

1:32:03 I mean her, her daughter who she was raising is now a teenager. You know that's the time in your life when you need your mum. Yeah. And I I mean, I struggle with that of like where So there was someone who said that these nobody, no, no, no parole laws were brought into place. Something might be the judge saying they were brought into place to support the family of victims, right? And so, you know, give them closure and things like that, that this was how this things would work. The family of taken is Kelly.

1:32:32 So they're punishing her twice over, right? They're not giving her the opportunity to be a mother to the daughter that she did want and has, but they're also punishing her like for potentially something she didn't do. Yeah, I'll look. I don't know. I think we could, we could go around about these circles on this for days. But yeah. Do you think we should leave it there? Have you got anything else you wanted to? Just trying to think there's anything else but because it just is endless. And it is.

1:32:56 It is absolutely. And yeah. I mean she's been looked at by psychologists and etc and many different people got different opinions on her psychological makeup as I said. You can find people to support whatever theory you may have. Absolutely. Doctor Xanthi Mallett was interviewed in relation to this case, and she'll come up in a lot of the cases we're gonna be doing in the future. Yeah, But she one of the quotes she said is just because you're a liar doesn't mean you're a murderer. Mm. Hmm. Yeah.

1:33:20 But. And that, that sums up, you know, Kelly to a tea. Kelly to an absolute tea. Absolutely. Just really quickly, I went to Reddit. Fucking fucking knows why. But you know, you're scraping the bottom of the barrel for research when you go to Reddit. But this so somebody but with the handle. The Illuminary has summed up my thoughts and feelings so eloquently. So I'm just gonna read it to you. Yeah, Yeah. I don't believe the prosecution proved Kelly murdered Tegan beyond a reasonable doubt to be legally convicted, but I also can't think of any other plausible explanation of what happened to Tegan considering her fuck ton of lies and a continued inability to prove her side of the story.

1:34:02 Yeah, totally. That's that's literally how I feel. Yeah. So thanks, Reddit. Yes. No. Spot on. Yeah, fuck ton of lies. Yeah, fuck ton of. Lies. Look, I think she just needs to come clean. Yeah. I tell the truth, it's really frustrating. It is we all wanna know for our own sanity. I mean, I have to also just sort of state like as much as like the jury. I think jury got it wrong 100%. Yeah. They did take 8 days to come to that conclusion and it ended up being 11 to one. And the judge made the call that they would go with majority rule.

1:34:32 Yeah, as. Opposed to unanimous. And even though to this day he has come out and said that he doesn't think that should have gone that way. Yeah. So but he also has a his job is he's get the preceding. He, well, that was not his job, but he was, he wasn't to do that in that situation. So he was very good at what he, you know, at his job. Yeah, really. He did, yeah. He did a good job. But Oh my God. All right, let's leave it there because as I said, we could talk about this for days. Please join us on next week's episode.

1:34:58 We're going to be covering the jinx. It's a huge one. Big one. Yeah, we've got, I've got, we've got a lot of research to do. Yeah, yeah, I'm so watching that Netflix show again. Colours. Let's do it. Thank you, everybody, for joining us for another episode of Two Crime Besties. Don't forget to, you know, follow us over on the socials. Yeah. Commenting, following that liking. We absolutely love it. Yeah. And if you want to buy us a coffee, you can do so at buymeacoffee.com/two Crime Besties. All the links down below.

1:35:29 You'll find all those in the show notes. Thank you everyone. Stay curious. Crime besties. Bye.