Episode 28 - Keli & Tegan Lane

0:15 Happy New Year, crime besties. Welcome back to our first

0:17 episode of 2025. Yes, Happy new Year.

0:20 Oh, that's really weird, isn't it?

0:22 We're back. We're.

0:23 Back after a little break. We've had a, you know, I'm sure

0:27 we're recording this a little bit in advance, but I'm hoping

0:30 we're having a really lovely Christmas break at the moment.

0:34 Enjoying the time with our children.

0:36 Yeah, I look, the one thing I absolutely adore about holidays

0:41 is not having to make lunch boxes, although you're a bit of

0:44 a snack bitch for the entire time.

0:46 Well, that's why I've got my snack drawer.

0:48 I allow access to everything holidays I just limit like what

0:52 I put in it. Yep and then I'm.

0:54 So as in, do you just put like a day's worth of snacks into the

0:57 drawer and then replenish it daily?

0:59 Yeah, sometimes I just stock it, like kind of, but with snacks

1:02 that I'm OK with them eating OK. And other times if it's getting

1:06 out of hand, I'll pull back OK and only have certain amounts.

1:09 But my kids are pretty good at not overeating.

1:12 I just. But what I also have in the

1:14 drawer is bowls, like little plastic bowls.

1:16 And the expectation is that anything in there that's larger

1:19 gets, you know, portioned into a little bowl.

1:21 So they've got everything they need, cups, everything in that

1:24 drawer. Love it.

1:25 They should not need to be in any other cupboard.

1:27 Do you find them ever in any other cupboard?

1:29 Of course I do. Yeah.

1:31 Like where are the good snacks? Bums holding out on us again.

1:35 Oh, they'll never find that Heidi Hold.

1:38 As as they should, because they shouldn't.

1:42 I thought we'd kick off this episode by having a bit of a

1:45 chat about what your word for 2024 was.

1:47 Yeah. And what your word for 2025 is

1:49 is going to be. Yep.

1:50 Yep. All right.

1:51 Are you ready for it? All right.

1:53 I gave you like, literally about an hour heads up that I was

1:55 going to ask you this question. Yeah.

1:57 Yeah, Go. I think, well, such

2:00 contradictions probably so my word for 2024 is mullet.

2:05 No. Because it's driven me nuts, I

2:09 reckon, for a full 12 months. OK.

2:11 And now we're here. Yep, he's he's now got a fully

2:14 fledged mullet, so it took all year.

2:17 I want to vomit. It's taken all year because

2:20 we've gone from me adamantly. I was the parent who was like, I

2:24 draw the line at a mullet. You can choose for whatever you

2:27 like to do with your hair. It grows back.

2:29 But I draw the line at a mullet. My child is never having a

2:33 mullet. And yet.

2:34 Here we are. Today, last night, last night,

2:38 the child got a mullet. He's been, he thought he had, he

2:40 thought he's had, he's, he's been building this for a long

2:43 time and it's been getting longer and longer.

2:44 Absolutely. And God, like, I mean, well, my

2:47 kids have a lot of hair. Shock horror.

2:51 And so it's been growing and getting buffier and buffier and

2:53 I'm like, this needs taming. So we did go and get haircuts

2:57 last night. He bawled his eyes out in the

2:59 car. And the way they're telling me

3:01 no one's cutting my hair because he was really happy with it just

3:04 growing, but it was looking so bad.

3:07 So I made him go in and saying to him, you know, the

3:10 hairdressers, they're the professionals.

3:12 They know what to do. They'll shape it.

3:14 We're not taking length, they'll shape it.

3:16 We walked in and there was a guy and look, he's lovely.

3:19 This hairdresser, he oh Baba, he's, he's really lovely young

3:23 guy and he's got this haircut. And my and Brody just went that

3:27 that's what I want. So the young guy who then cut

3:32 it, he just went, I want what Luke's got.

3:34 Come on. That that's actually really.

3:36 Cute it was that I'm really sweet, but the but the whole

3:37 thing was I want what Luke's got, but with my length Yeah.

3:41 And so so. From the front, he looks.

3:43 Adorable. He looks so gorgeous.

3:45 The party in the back. Oh, isn't it, though?

3:48 And like this morning at school, I had to like, run my fingers

3:51 through it because it was just, it's just so thick.

3:53 I did. Oh, there was no holding back.

3:56 It's so thick and glorious and it's not on my child.

4:01 So there's that. Yeah.

4:03 Yeah, yeah. My youngest.

4:05 So Brody, who's Brody's best friend, Lucas, he's like very

4:09 much about the short back inside.

4:11 He likes to look like Cristiano Ronaldo.

4:13 Yeah. Who's very well kept.

4:15 Love that. Yes.

4:17 I saw a great. Role model, yeah.

4:18 My older boy, though, is like Brody, like he's got.

4:21 He looks like a Packer. Yeah.

4:23 And I saw this meme recently going around, basically, it's

4:26 like mums of boys who had haircuts like this.

4:29 And it was a photo of, like, really nicely cut hair, really

4:32 beautifully styled, short back inside.

4:35 And whatever will inevitably end up with a boy looking like this.

4:41 And it was the alpaca hairstyle. And I'm like, literally, I could

4:44 put photos, insert photos of Oliver for both of those.

4:48 So I get it. I get that there's no control

4:50 because they are their own people.

4:52 Yeah, it's just here. And at some point you've got to

4:54 let go. But Oh my God.

4:57 Because even like the like the sides of Brodie's where like

5:00 because it's this fade thing or whatever.

5:02 And as I was like, I'm like, so we're good.

5:04 You know what, you're doing great.

5:05 OK, I'm walking away because I'm like leaving into it.

5:08 And the the Barber turned to me and goes, so we're going right

5:11 down to 0. Are we like on the sides there?

5:13 And I was like, oh wait, what? I don't even know.

5:16 Like just. Whatever.

5:17 I mean, there's, there's no coming back from this.

5:20 Yeah, this is it. I mean, God, the 0 is not my

5:23 concern. Really.

5:24 After that. Exactly.

5:28 Oh yeah, definitely. This year has been.

5:30 It's the talk. Of the mullet.

5:31 A mullet over the year. Exactly a mullet of a year.

5:33 Yeah, OK. What about yours?

5:35 My word of 2024 is complex. I just feel like they've been a

5:39 lot of complex situations this year and a lot of things that

5:42 I've been working through and like realizing.

5:45 And I think it's because I'm getting older.

5:47 Yeah. And this year, 2025, I know, I

5:50 know. I'm really old.

5:52 This year, in 2025, I'm turning 40.

5:54 And I think, like, you know, when you're coming up for a

5:57 milestone, anything, it makes you reflect obviously on, yeah,

6:00 where you're at and what you're doing and where you wanna.

6:02 Go, Don't wanna turn this age. Is this gonna be I'm cool thing?

6:05 Yeah, I'm cool. For turning 40.

6:06 Yeah, I think what is the new like 20, Yeah.

6:09 Totally. I'm cool.

6:10 I'm cool for it, but it yeah, I've just been reflecting a lot

6:14 and yeah, there's a lot of complexities in life that I

6:16 wanna simplify next year, obviously in 2025.

6:20 Mm hmm. And I just want my word for 2025

6:24 is actually joy. I wanna do things that bring me

6:26 joy. Yeah.

6:27 Like doing this podcast, you know, every week.

6:30 We're committed to it. We're doing it.

6:31 Don't worry. Oh, yeah.

6:32 But also like, choosing joy in situations that I probably

6:37 wouldn't ordinarily have otherwise.

6:38 Like, I've always been one of these people who I choose, like,

6:42 the responsible thing to do all the time and the the right thing

6:46 to do. And I'm very much a people

6:48 pleaser. I like to make sure everyone

6:50 around me is, you know, accommodated.

6:52 Yeah. Which is great.

6:52 I like that about myself. In some ways, yes, but I want to

6:56 do it only in situations. That's right.

6:58 I only want to do that in situations that also serves me.

7:01 Yes, I know this sounds really selfish, but nobody is going to

7:04 be my year of me. And so I want to be like, yeah,

7:09 I want that to be my focus for this year.

7:11 Love that. Happy to do all my things but as

7:13 long as it brings me joy. Yeah, yeah.

7:14 And learn how to say no. I am slowly learning how to say

7:18 no. I feel like I've done really

7:20 well over the Christmas period because normally I find I get so

7:24 burnt out. And you know, when people go

7:26 like, oh, let's catch up for this, let's do this, How about

7:28 we fit in this? And I just feel like I'm always

7:30 like, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

7:32 You get to Christmas and you can't enjoy it because you're so

7:34 burnt out. Yeah, I feel like this year I've

7:36 really done well. Like I've chosen not to go to

7:39 certain events that I would have 100% gone to in the past.

7:43 Yeah. And yeah, it's actually been a

7:45 much nicer period. And for the kids as well, like

7:48 we've been around home a lot more than we probably ordinarily

7:52 would have. And it's just been nice.

7:54 Yeah. Really, really nice.

7:56 And spending time together, that's like literally the most

7:58 important thing, so. So is yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

8:02 So slightly slightly different tangent to yours, but tell me

8:05 what you're. No, because my 2025 word is

8:07 probably on similar level of like, you know, that it's very,

8:11 very different to mullet. Yeah.

8:13 Organization. I want to be far more organized.

8:16 I feel like my, my life has shifted these last few years and

8:20 I feel like I'm still trying to find my feet of my new norm of

8:23 like just general organization of how I manage myself.

8:26 So work and in family life both. Like I feel like I'm in a

8:31 position in my work that I know what I'm doing enough that I

8:34 should be more organized instead of flying by the seat of my

8:37 pants all the time, which I tend to do.

8:39 And then in my home life as well though, like I just feel like

8:43 things get out of control and I shouldn't let it when I could be

8:47 just be more organized and now and in that being more

8:50 organized, I can then actually do more for myself.

8:52 Yeah, that's true. Because I feel like I'm

8:54 constantly just taking care of other things rather than me,

8:56 Yeah. And doing the things that I need

8:59 to do for myself, not the things maybe I want to do because it's

9:02 about the need to. Because, yeah, it's a, it's a

9:05 need to, you know, eat better, you know, you know, be more

9:08 organised in managing those things.

9:09 Getting time to go for a walk. Yeah.

9:11 Things like that. That I just am not fitting in at

9:13 the moment because life's getting in the way.

9:14 Yeah. When a simple organization could

9:17 fix it, I mean. You've got the concepts, they're

9:19 like you've got your snack drawer and all those kinds of

9:22 things like that's, that's a reliable.

9:23 Yeah, totally. Yeah.

9:25 But that's a simple like, because that's so entrenched in

9:27 me of like how I do my shopping. Like, I literally unpack my

9:30 groceries to that. Yeah.

9:31 Like, so that's yeah. But I want more of that in my

9:33 life. You've got this girl, Yeah.

9:35 Yeah, love that we'll make 2025 the year, weren't we?

9:39 The year, yeah, it is. Well, this podcast's gonna blow

9:42 up. We're gonna quit our jobs.

9:44 Imagine that. OK, first episode of 2025.

9:48 Imagine if by the end of this year, oh, that would be amazing,

9:51 that would we need to get subscribe, people subscribe.

9:56 Look, we're not we're not quitting anytime soon.

9:58 So let's hope, let's hope for it.

10:01 It's always been the goal. Yeah, and it will continue.

10:03 Yeah, I love it. So what are we talking about

10:05 today? All right, so today's case is

10:08 really, it's a big one. It's a very interesting one.

10:10 We're talking about Kelly Lane and her baby Tegan Lane.

10:14 So this is a huge case from back in the 90s and so people might

10:20 have heard of Kelly Lane, they might have heard of Tegan, but I

10:23 feel like it's one of those ones where you might not know that

10:26 straight away. Once you start, we start getting

10:27 into it, you go, oh, I remember this happening, it was in the

10:30 media and things like that. If you're from Australia,

10:32 outside of Australia, probably have no idea of this case.

10:35 So it's very interesting little. Although I did listen to a

10:39 podcast from some UK based, yeah, podcasters who like were

10:44 sort of getting the story out there.

10:46 So yeah, I think because it is such a complex and there's that

10:49 word, a complex and interesting story.

10:51 Yeah. And there's so much nuance to

10:55 it. Gotcha.

10:56 Just really quickly, earlier in the week, Meg and I were having

10:59 a chat about the way we felt about this.

11:01 And I think we've got slightly differing opinions as to what's

11:04 happened, well, to what we believe.

11:07 But it'll be interesting to see as we go along because in this,

11:11 you can find people who are absolutely, for once, one way

11:15 and the way one thing happened, and you can find the absolute

11:18 opposite. So depending on, I guess, what

11:21 you've listened to, what you've researched can help form those,

11:23 how you interpret things. Exactly.

11:26 Yeah. And I mean, yeah, at the end of

11:30 the day, there's a missing baby. A missing child.

11:34 Yeah. A missing who, a woman who would

11:37 be in her 20s this day, to this day if she were found.

11:41 So, you know, there's, there's a lot.

11:43 Of how? Yeah.

11:44 How old would Tegan be now? Is it about 20?

11:46 24 yeah, something like that, yeah.

11:49 Yeah, that's insane. Which so there could be someone

11:51 out there in in living anywhere in the world that this, that

11:55 could be the person we're looking for.

11:56 Yeah, in this. We don't know that.

11:58 We don't know. And this is this is the thing

12:00 that makes it so tricky. Yeah, so, so tricky.

12:03 All right, Kelly Lane was born on the 21st of March in 1975.

12:08 So she's about, she's almost 50I.

12:10 Think yeah, she's 49. Yeah. 49 Her parents, Sandra and

12:14 Robert Lane, were very well respected members of the

12:17 community. So Kelly was born in Manly in

12:21 Sydney and, you know, we know Manly and we know that area, you

12:26 know, really well is true crime. Yeah.

12:28 Because this is the same setting that the teacher's pet was set

12:33 in. So it's in that insular

12:34 peninsula. Insula it's that and it's also

12:36 like a similar time. It's, you know, it's a, it's not

12:39 far off of the timeline of that going.

12:42 Off it's it's not far off. Yeah.

12:44 And, and in in researching this, the lifestyle of what was

12:48 happening around that insula, peninsula, Kelly Lane was

12:51 certainly, I think, mixed up in that.

12:53 Absolutely. Like what what you're referring

12:55 to, I think is like these older men praying on younger women and

12:59 and we know that like in the case of Chris Dawson, he was a

13:04 school teacher in that area and he was having relationships with

13:07 his students and similarly. So Kelly Lane was a water polo

13:11 play water polo player and she, like she says readily, there

13:16 were like 30 year old men dating 16 year old women from the water

13:20 Polo Club and you just think what the hell, like.

13:22 I knew these, but this was. Normal like it wasn't just like

13:25 a one off salvation this. Is the thing you sort of listen

13:27 to the the teacher's pet and you can sort of go, oh, there was

13:29 these two men, you know that as being the twins or the dorsal

13:32 twins. You know that we're doing this,

13:33 you know, and being involved in this.

13:35 But then you really realize when you look at this case, it was

13:38 far bigger than just the two of them.

13:39 It was, it was a culture. It was, it was a culture.

13:42 Northern beaches of. Sydney, which is so scary.

13:45 Gross. I really.

13:46 Find it really horrible and the fact that no, I mean, again,

13:49 with this one, it's the adults in this situation have dropped

13:52 the ball in that whole area. These young girls were being

13:58 exploited. It just, yeah, it really blows

14:00 my mind getting into this. And I'm realizing that across

14:03 the board in that area with some whole lot of not good stuff

14:07 going on. For sure.

14:08 So Kelly's dad, Robert was a police officer in at Manly

14:12 Police Station and her mum was a hospital worker.

14:16 I'm not quite sure exactly what she did there.

14:18 I don't think she was a nurse or part of the medical staff,

14:20 right. But she, she held some job at at

14:23 the hospital. We need to come back to

14:25 hospital. Pardon.

14:25 We will come back to her. Oh my God.

14:27 I. Can't wait actually to get into

14:29 that with me too. So Kelly was a really sporty

14:34 child and I think the family really placed a huge amount of

14:40 value on sporting achievements and achievements in general.

14:44 Kelly wasn't, you know, a stellar academic, but she was,

14:48 she did well at school. Yeah.

14:50 And she was very well liked. She was really popular.

14:52 As I said, she was a water polo player.

14:55 She was involved in like at a quite a high level in this

14:59 sport, like in state teams. And she even made a national, a

15:02 junior national team at at one point.

15:05 Yeah, there was some suggestion, but potentially at some point

15:09 she might even be able to make an Olympic team, even though

15:12 there's conjecture around. That basically and generally

15:15 people were saying about her was that she was a naturally gifted

15:18 talented athlete. It was whether not her ambition

15:21 was there or. Not was all that drew from what

15:23 I've seen. Like one of her coaches

15:25 describes her as like she had the grit and determination to do

15:28 it. Yeah, she didn't really have the

15:30 natural talent as a water polo player not.

15:33 But she wanted to get there. Yeah.

15:35 Then one of her friends says, and I think this is like

15:37 completely fair. If she really wanted to be an

15:40 elite athlete, shouldn't be out drinking.

15:42 She wouldn't be out partying every weekend.

15:44 She could have actually probably, had she focused solely

15:47 on that, she probably could have made it because she did have

15:50 that natural innate ability. There's natural ability there,

15:52 she just wasn't one that was cultivating it in herself

15:54 because there was other draw cards that were more important

15:57 to her. Yeah, and that's completely

15:58 fair. We make our choices.

16:00 I mean, I'm sure that out there, not just because you have the

16:02 ability to be good at something doesn't mean that that's your

16:05 passion. Yeah, but I think there was a

16:07 massive expectation from your parents that she would have she

16:11 would achieve in the sporting arena, Yeah.

16:12 And that, well, the family were very well known in the area just

16:15 in general of as a community. They were like obviously people

16:18 who participated in the community.

16:20 They were on the committees of the surf club.

16:23 You know, they were on the committees and, you know, and

16:25 managers of, of hot water polo teams.

16:27 They were when a family who went, Oh yeah, go along and do

16:30 your sport, they participated. Which I think the dad Robert

16:33 was, he was like quite up, quite high up as a rugby coach in the

16:37 area. Yeah, he was well respected in

16:39 rugby, yeah. Yeah.

16:40 So yeah, they were involved in a lot of different things.

16:43 Yeah, they had, you know, yeah, community and people knew who

16:46 the Lane family were. And they even say it in

16:49 interviews. Yeah.

16:50 They're like, well, we had a certain social standing.

16:52 We had a certain reputation to uphold.

16:55 Yeah. Yep.

16:56 Interesting. It is look, the family dynamics

16:59 here, we will get into this as the story goes along, but it is

17:02 unbelievable and you just can't believe that a family could

17:06 function like this. I mean, at the surface level,

17:09 yes, they were a functioning family.

17:11 They were, you know, pillars of the community.

17:13 But then you you did that one little layer, scratched that

17:15 surface a little bit. Only a little bit too, yeah.

17:18 And you're like, fuck, they were fucked.

17:19 They they, they were so dysfunctional.

17:22 Yeah, I mean, I heard one sort of talk of a psychologist sort

17:25 of saying that in the household, like Kelly had been raised as,

17:31 as a human being, not a girl. Like.

17:35 So there was just these, there was never any talk around.

17:37 I mean, little girls need conversations with their mum or

17:40 their dad, whoever it is that can be in their their life,

17:43 talking about changes in your body and things like that,

17:44 because that's important to have those conversations.

17:47 Those sorts of emotional conversations never took place.

17:52 So she grew up in, she was as raised as a tomboy as much as

17:56 possible. You could be raised as a tomboy,

17:58 you know. So she didn't.

17:59 I don't think there was ever any emotional conversations

18:02 happening in that. House I also like in one of

18:06 something that I've either read or listened to, there was talk

18:09 that, you know, her mum never had a chat with her about

18:11 periods or like reproductive health or anything like that

18:16 and. And look, plenty of parents

18:17 aren't good at that, you know, I mean, I can vouch that my mum

18:19 wasn't great like, you know, but you know, it would still.

18:22 Enough, like kind of thing, Yeah.

18:24 So you weren't like shocked and this happened to.

18:27 You. Yeah, but I think it was a whole

18:28 another level of that of like, you know that fully.

18:30 I don't know how to talk about that with those.

18:31 I just don't just don't talk about it.

18:33 Yeah, I really get that sense that there was.

18:35 So then you think of Kelly as a young teenager going through

18:38 that, That'd be very isolating. And to not be able to talk to

18:42 your mom about it, yeah, that's hard.

18:45 That's hard. Yeah.

18:46 And I guess if she's grown up to be sort of quite insular issue,

18:52 then talking to her friends about it.

18:53 Like I've got friends who I grew up with who never talked about

18:57 periods, never talked about changes to their bodies.

18:59 And then on the other hand, I've got friends who talk about it

19:02 all the time. So I guess that depends, like,

19:06 you know, the way you were raised and the way that whether

19:09 this was a taboo thing in your household or not, whether it was

19:11 something you talked about or not.

19:12 Yeah, Yeah. It's really, it's just this just

19:16 sort of like builds a little bit more about what?

19:17 A picture of who? She is.

19:19 And what, how she grew up, Yeah, 'cause it certainly impacts, I

19:21 think, who she became. Yeah.

19:22 As an adult. Well, even not necessarily even

19:25 adulthood when these things started for her.

19:26 No, really, no. So according to Sandra and

19:32 Robert, they, their family values were respect for others,

19:37 honesty. We'll get back to that.

19:40 And they were sort of the mottos that the family lived by.

19:44 Yeah, yeah. But did they?

19:47 No. Well, yeah, I don't think it was

19:48 like, you know, we have a standing in the we have it's

19:52 they wanted to put out portray an image to others of how their

19:55 family work was. But I think at home there wasn't

19:58 any communication, yeah, beyond how other people perceived them.

20:01 Yeah, they were successful in doing that because everyone who

20:05 knew them superficially was like, oh, yeah, they were great.

20:07 They, you know, wonderful people.

20:09 They did a lot for the community.

20:10 Yeah. Kelly also had a brother.

20:12 Yeah. So it was a a family unit of of

20:15 four people. Yeah.

20:17 In 1992, do we get? Do we start the timeline?

20:21 Let's yeah, let's get to the timeline.

20:22 Yeah, because I think otherwise this episode's going to go on.

20:25 I mean, it's going to go on forever.

20:27 Anyway. In November of 1992, Kelly falls

20:31 pregnant with her first child. She was 17 years old at the

20:34 time, and she fell pregnant to her boyfriend like a childhood

20:39 sweetheart named Aaron Tayak. I think he pronounced his

20:42 surname. Yeah, he's done.

20:43 Well, they she tells him about this pregnancy.

20:47 So she obviously figures out that she's pregnant and that all

20:52 of this is going on, and she tells him about it.

20:55 And they decide mutually that she's going to have a

20:59 termination. Yeah.

21:00 Now According to him, and he drove her to the Manly dock, she

21:07 caught the ferry over to the Sydney to Sydney to have the

21:11 termination at a clinic and he waited for her to come back and

21:15 for her to come back. And when she came back, he

21:17 describes her as being broken. So I wonder why he didn't go,

21:21 but I guess it is, you know, the 90s.

21:23 It was 17. Yeah.

21:25 I mean, to deal with that on your own, that's huge.

21:28 I just feel for her, imagine her being in that situation.

21:32 She hasn't told a soul aside from Aaron and.

21:36 They were both in year 12. They're still finishing school.

21:38 So, I mean, you know, wasn't good timing for that to happen.

21:42 And you can understand the decision they made, but jeez,

21:45 they needed more support to go through all that.

21:47 Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and neither of them told

21:50 us all. There's a there was a

21:54 documentary released by the ABC called Exposed the Kelly Lane

21:58 Story, and it was produced by Caro Meldrum.

22:03 Hannah, who is an amazing journalist.

22:05 She's most famous for reporting for Four Corners.

22:10 Yeah. And she she this three-part

22:14 documentary, I suppose. Yeah.

22:16 Is very interesting. Yeah.

22:19 But she interviews Aaron as part of it.

22:22 Yeah. In in the earlier episodes

22:24 especially. And he seems like a really

22:27 lovely guy. Like he's, he's just a very

22:29 simple man and and he gets quite emotional recalling the events

22:35 and how it all came about. And like, you know, it still

22:39 effects him to this day. Which, yeah, it would.

22:41 Yep, yes, not I mean, I'm sure there's unfortunately lots of

22:46 girls that have been through that and and lots of boys that,

22:48 you know, that that have been together with somebody and

22:50 that's happened and and they've gone through that together.

22:52 Yeah, You know, so, you know, it's not uncommon, but at the

22:56 same time it would have just been a really tough thing.

22:58 And it was clear he felt that she was very emotional about it.

23:02 He was clearly emotional about it, but they made.

23:05 The right decision for them at the time.

23:07 Yeah, Yeah, yeah, I fully agree. In mid 1994, Kelly falls

23:12 pregnant again for the second time.

23:14 Yeah, This time it was allegedly to a marriage.

23:17 She was having an affair with a married man.

23:20 Now, Yeah, I don't know. I've seen different things

23:25 reported about whether that's true, but I think that's the

23:27 most commonly accepted version of events.

23:32 Yeah. And they decide, again,

23:34 mutually, that she's going to. Terminate that.

23:36 So she did Professor. I didn't think she even told

23:38 him. Oh, didn't she?

23:40 No, that was my understanding what he didn't even know.

23:42 But I might be wrong. I.

23:44 Oh, sorry. No, I've.

23:45 I've literally got that written down.

23:47 She didn't tell him. I'm really sorry.

23:49 She told nobody, literally nobody for this pregnancy.

23:53 So she'd just broken up with Aaron when she fell pregnant.

23:56 Yeah, she had overlaps of. Yeah, she was.

24:01 Sleeping with them things, Yeah. So I don't think she actually

24:04 fully knew who the father would have been.

24:06 OK, from what I could gather. OK, yeah, it was a late term

24:10 abortion. Yeah, 20 weeks gestation.

24:12 So that's a. Completely different procedure

24:15 to to the first one that what she had to have go through so

24:18 and from her account of that it was pretty horrific.

24:21 It was a 2 step process. Yeah, overnight in hospital they

24:24 had to put a dilate, like insert a dilator.

24:26 Yeah, like, it just sounded horrific the way she describes

24:29 it. But at, you know, at 20 weeks,

24:34 you're halfway through a pregnancy.

24:35 The the fetus is, you know, really far developed.

24:38 Really. I mean, I think viability these

24:40 days for a couple weeks off. I was gonna say it's I think

24:43 it's 22 weeks. It's either 22 or 24.

24:45 Either way, really close to viability.

24:48 Yeah. So, you know, it would have been

24:51 such a traumatic thing for her to go through, but why did she

24:54 wait until she was 20 weeks? That's really.

24:56 Yeah. Well, she says she didn't know

24:58 she was pregnant. And look, I there's a few things

25:01 with that that I can understand. As an athlete, she skipped

25:05 periods. So, OK, you're not going to know

25:07 that you haven't had a period and therefore you might be

25:10 pregnant. Yeah, completely understand

25:12 that. But if she was taking the pill

25:15 regularly enough and properly, probably wouldn't have fallen

25:17 pregnant. But then but again, I know

25:19 plenty of people who have. So she admits, though, that she

25:23 wasn't taking the pill regularly.

25:25 She was drinking a lot. So that could.

25:27 And so it renders it potentially renders it ineffective,

25:29 effective. Yeah.

25:30 So she actually wasn't compliant in terms of taking the pill.

25:34 So what do you think is going to happen?

25:36 Well, yeah, Yeah. Because apparently the other

25:38 thing is like back in the day, the especially in this scene,

25:45 the men were like, Oh no we don't.

25:47 Wear condoms. Fucking hell.

25:51 Yep, they don't have any responsibilities.

25:52 Oh no, no. Why would they?

25:54 Why would they? Yep.

25:56 Yeah. So I mean, why she let it go

25:59 that late, I don't know. Yep.

26:03 Interesting. It's a very.

26:04 Very. And but again, she did not tell

26:06 anybody about this pregnancy. She never told her mom, never

26:09 told a friend anything. No.

26:13 So yeah, how do I like? But the awful thing with it,

26:15 too, I think she actually went to one clinic where she'd gone

26:17 to the last time to have the abortion.

26:19 She went to the same clinic. They turned her away and said we

26:21 can't do it because it's so so because you're so far along.

26:24 They referred her to another clinic to go and have the

26:26 abortion. So yeah, she had to go and like,

26:30 seek this out and find all this stuff out for herself.

26:32 She had no idea how to do this and found her way around all

26:36 those things and worked it out all by herself.

26:38 I mean, that's awful. Yeah.

26:40 How old is she at that point? 1818 yeah, yeah.

26:46 So yes. Then we get to early 9595 S this

26:52 time again, she falls pregnant again.

26:55 This time, though, she carries the baby full term.

26:59 So she organized for this baby to be adopted.

27:02 She didn't tell the father about it at all.

27:04 She didn't tell anyone about this pregnancy.

27:06 So this is where it gets really interesting with their

27:07 pregnancies. So she had a boyfriend at the

27:11 time she so they were. Duncan Gillies, his name is.

27:15 His name will keep coming up throughout this.

27:17 So he was a rugby player. They were both sort of really

27:21 amazing athletes and they were like the golden couple kind of

27:23 thing, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

27:25 So she she carried this baby full term, dating him, obviously

27:28 sleeping with him, potentially sleeping with other people as

27:30 well as she was. Definitely sleeping with.

27:32 Others because he wasn't the father.

27:33 We know he's not the father. Yeah, yeah.

27:35 So this is so this little baby was obviously carried to full

27:38 term with him, with her boyfriend not knowing at all

27:41 that she's nine months pregnant. OK, so.

27:43 They asked him about this at the inquest, right?

27:45 And they were like, how did you know?

27:47 Like, were you sexually active throughout this time?

27:50 Yes, yes, we were. She'd stay over three or four

27:52 nights a week and we were intimate multiple times a week

27:56 during that time. The way he describes it is very

27:59 funny, but I mean, it sort of takes you back to that.

28:02 Like, he's not funny. But they they would have sex in

28:07 a spooning position and he wasn't allowed to touch her

28:10 stomach because she was self-conscious that she'd put on

28:13 weight. Yes, she'd put on weight because

28:14 you're fucking nearly nine months pregnant.

28:16 At this point. Yeah, I I can't buy the fact

28:19 that he didn't know. I think he just was.

28:23 It was convenient. Convenient for him to not say

28:27 anything. I had to do.

28:28 Anything. And for Yeah, yeah.

28:30 None of my business what? Could have very easily been your

28:34 baby. It wasn't.

28:35 No, but it could have. How was he to know that?

28:37 Yeah, he wasn't. And to think that no one like

28:40 that he didn't go think to say to her, hey, do you think might

28:43 be you might be pregnant? Yeah, like so during this time

28:46 her water polo team was like doing really well and they

28:50 actually made the grand final of like the state based

28:53 competition, I think. Yeah, they won it.

28:55 Yeah. And then that night they decided

28:57 to go out for drinks. Yes.

29:00 Now at this point. Kelly was nine months pregnant.

29:05 Yeah, she just put on that to the she's played a grand final

29:09 in water polo Now. Water polo is a incredibly

29:12 physical game. And I don't mean just in terms

29:15 of what she needs, how physical she needs to be.

29:18 I mean there is scratching pullings like they come out of

29:22 those pools without bathers on because they RIP them like they

29:25 will, like they gouge. They kick really hard.

29:28 Have you ever played water polo? Oh.

29:29 Never. Oh, yeah.

29:31 I've played. We used to play all the time at

29:33 school. And Oh my God, Like it that

29:36 people kick you under the water, like in the stomach because then

29:39 you're like, you know, oh, God, you know, like, yeah, swallowing

29:41 water while someone else is grabbing the ball off you.

29:43 So it's all that's how you play. It sounds diabolical.

29:46 It's. Awful.

29:48 It's like torture. Yeah, yeah.

29:50 My dad played very high level water polo.

29:52 He'll tell you stories about what they would do for the men

29:55 when they kick you. I can I can imagine.

29:58 Yeah, it's, it is a very physical game, Yeah.

30:02 And she's nine months pregnant. So just oh, so the the in the in

30:10 the exposed documentary, they question the coaches and the

30:15 staff like the team manager and her teammates.

30:18 So there's only one teammate that actually spoke out in the

30:20 documentary and they don't get closed ranks and didn't want to

30:23 talk about it, but they're like, how did you not say she's in a

30:25 bathing? They all knew.

30:27 They all knew. They.

30:28 Were all talking about it. Absolutely.

30:29 But no one actually talked to Kelly about it.

30:32 They were talking about it behind her back.

30:34 Even the team manager, the adults, the the the coach denies

30:37 denies, denies that he knew. I'm like, I don't.

30:40 Alongside her mother, who was the manager.

30:42 Of the team, not at the time. It was another lady who was the

30:45 manager at the time, but her mum had been a manager of the team.

30:48 Previously during whilst one of her pregnancies too.

30:51 OK, Yeah. Not I know it wasn't during this

30:53 one, but that other lady. All the gossip going on behind

30:56 the scene, they were all talking about it.

30:58 Not one of those adults when when hey this 19 year old and is

31:02 pregnant and and playing water polo.

31:04 Should we not say something and? She can't.

31:07 She can't play well. I'm all stated.

31:09 Like the fact that you don't say to a woman like, oh,

31:11 congratulations, until you know they're pregnant.

31:13 I, I'm, I'm that person. He was like, until they tell me

31:16 I'm pregnant, I don't say anything.

31:18 Peter has a Peter has a rule, a life rule that he's like, unless

31:22 I can see a baby coming out of that woman at that exact moment

31:26 in time, I will never comment on whether she's pregnant or not.

31:29 I, I, yeah, I'm starched. I'm Storch to that too.

31:32 I mean, it's really hard to like to do that, but in a situation

31:34 where she's being put into a physical encounter like that in

31:37 a water polo game and only 19, someone should have said to her,

31:44 look, love, let's just have a do a pregnancy test and check and

31:48 see maybe if you're pregnant because, you know, like we want

31:51 to look after you. Yeah.

31:52 No one wanted to look after her. No, that that is what's I find

31:57 She's really. Hard yeah I agree.

31:59 She tried to conceal her pregnancy by like wrapping her

32:02 tail around her and sitting on the edge of the pool and like

32:05 sliding into the pool, whereas apparently before she'd always

32:08 like dive in and would walk around in her bathers and not

32:10 have a care in the world about that there's.

32:12 Also going under the water and their goggles, like yeah, like

32:15 she's definitely pregnant. But not actually going up to and

32:17 going, hey, you, you right. Yeah.

32:19 Because you haven't told anyone about it.

32:21 Yeah. Do you need some help?

32:22 Do you need? I noticed this day like that

32:24 woman they did interview on that show, She says now she regrets

32:27 not saying anything. But I don't, I don't put it on

32:29 the other 19 year old girls, to be really honest.

32:31 I mean, especially in that day and age.

32:33 I think today kids would be more, you know, at 19 would be

32:36 more upfront with their friend. Yeah.

32:38 But the adults should have been more protective, 100%.

32:44 They have real, they should have guilt and they do have something

32:47 to answer to on that, I reckon. Yeah.

32:49 So they've won this grand final, they've gone out to the pub.

32:52 No, we've just gone off this tantrum.

32:53 But that's fine. She they've gone off to the pub

32:56 having some drinks and then everyone's like, oh, where's

32:58 Kelly? Kelly's normally there to stump.

33:01 Oh yeah, big time. Loves a drink, loves a party.

33:04 Yeah. She's always there to the end.

33:05 For our international listeners, that means to the end of the

33:08 night. Yeah.

33:09 And she's disappeared at some point.

33:12 Turns out she'd gone into Labor and she took herself off to the

33:16 King George, the 5th Hospital camper down in in Sydney and on

33:21 her own, on her own birthed a baby girl.

33:27 Now, in all of the court transcripts, they refer to this,

33:30 so names are suppressed, but they refer to this child as TR.

33:34 And so we can refer to her as that ongoing if we're mentioning

33:38 her again, Kelly hadn't put anything in place to in terms of

33:45 like adoption arrangements or anything like that.

33:47 So. She hadn't even had any like

33:50 prenatal, prenatal care like which is, you know, that's.

33:53 She'd attended. She had.

33:54 It confirmed but that. Was it?

33:55 That's it, Yeah, that is all. She'd attended her GP, had the

33:57 pregnancy confirmed and then had not attend, had not had any

34:01 other appointments. Now she was drinking throughout

34:03 this time, she was participating in like a very physical contact

34:07 sport. Yeah.

34:09 But anyway, this baby, baby was born and like, the process of

34:15 adoption commenced once she was in hospital because they were

34:18 like, she she asked to see an adoption agency when she was

34:21 there. Yeah.

34:22 Now very many, many, many, many, many years later, a psychiatrist

34:29 assesses her. And she said that when Kelly was

34:34 in hospital with the baby before the adoption or first of all, it

34:38 was fostering, but then into adoption.

34:41 Yeah. Before that kind of all took

34:42 place, she breastfed this baby. She, you know, had naps with the

34:47 baby. She was caring for it.

34:50 Yeah. For her, the baby was in with

34:53 her in her room. Yeah.

34:54 And it was like the mother of any other child who is then

34:59 going to be taking that child home.

35:01 Yeah, the notes really indicate, you know, like a a normal, you

35:05 know, new mother interacting with her baby and very caring.

35:09 And so no signs of any, any issues.

35:12 But yeah, I wanted to adopt her out, which, you know, at 19,

35:15 like, you know, no partner not knowing, you know, what was

35:18 going on with all of that and who the father was.

35:20 That's not unheard of. But yeah, so it seemed to them

35:25 on the on the surface, I guess a fairly normal situation.

35:28 And that's other than the fact that she hadn't got any family

35:31 or anyone coming to visit her with this new baby there was no

35:33 one clearly knew about. Her pregnancy but she told the

35:37 hospital that her family were Interstate and that the and she

35:41 was just visiting Sydney for, that's right, three weeks or

35:44 something and gave her an address for Perth didn't.

35:46 She that she lived in Perth. Yeah.

35:47 And that the father of the child was based in Perth as well.

35:50 Yeah. And that he wanted the child to

35:52 be adopted, but that he. Oh, no, I think she said that he

35:56 was living internationally, actually.

35:59 And she said Duncan Gillies was the father of the child.

36:01 That's the name that she gave, even though we have seen it has

36:04 since been proven that that he is not the biological father.

36:09 And yeah, but it's just lie after lie after lie it.

36:14 Took approximately about 14 months for them to finally

36:17 process that adoption because her of her lies and also due to

36:23 like not being able to find the father because you can't just

36:26 adopt A child out. I mean, you've got to consider

36:27 both parents, you know, biological parents of this

36:30 child. And so they wanted to try and

36:31 contact the father to get his approval as well for the

36:34 adoption. So it caused quite a number of

36:36 issues for Kelly at the time, like trying to do that.

36:39 She'd give like half truths as well.

36:40 So she named him. She named Duncan Gillies.

36:43 Yeah. Now, granted, she may have

36:44 thought he was the father. I don't know.

36:46 But she named him, and she gave them his phone number with one

36:50 digit. Wrong, Yeah.

36:51 She gave them them an address that was fictitious.

36:55 She gave him them an address. A previous an old.

36:57 Address, an old address that was like, instead of being 75 A, it

37:03 was like 7A or something like that.

37:05 So it was like almost, right. Yeah.

37:07 You know, she, she just like dropped a number or added a

37:11 number or changed a number. She this was her patent.

37:17 This is what she did when she was fabricating these stories.

37:20 Yeah. Now eventually the child was

37:24 adopted and you know, this is moving ahead quite a bit.

37:29 But when this whole matter went to court, they were able to find

37:33 and prove the paternity of this child.

37:35 We don't know who that is. That person's name has been

37:38 suppressed. We know that the child is well,

37:41 the little girl is well, TR is well and living with her adopted

37:45 parents and her life is grand. Yeah.

37:47 So that's a really nice outcome to a really sort of rocky and

37:52 weird start to life for that, for that little girl.

37:54 Yeah. It doesn't stop there.

37:57 No, no, by no means. In early 1996, Kelly begins her

38:04 career as a teacher, so she's working at a private school.

38:08 But while she's working in that capacity, she's also still

38:12 competing at a fairly high level in water polo.

38:17 And she during this time, like very early in 1996, she goes to

38:23 the World Championships in Canada with her junior national

38:26 team and they receive a silver medal.

38:28 So this was like a world championship type event.

38:32 And like they're looking at this stage of bringing water polo

38:36 into the Sydney 2000 Olympics. So they're really sort of trying

38:40 to garner women's water polo. They're trying to really garner

38:42 a lot of interest around it. And I guess like, I think we

38:46 spoke about this a little bit earlier, but was that an

38:48 aspiration of Kelly's or not? I, I don't really know.

38:52 But obviously it was a passion of her.

38:53 She's still continuing this through, you know, when she's

38:57 working full time and having other commitments and she was

39:00 actually coaching the water polo team at this at the school as

39:03 well. All right.

39:03 Yeah, Yeah. Yeah, what else happens in 1996?

39:10 Well, she falls pregnant again, doesn't she?

39:12 She does, Yeah. So again.

39:14 She's in a relationship still at this time with Duncan Gillies,

39:18 and she again, nobody knows that she's pregnant.

39:23 She doesn't tell a soul, including Duncan.

39:28 They're still sleeping with each other.

39:29 Spoon. Spooning and, you know, having a

39:33 really great time of it and not not figuring out that she's

39:36 actually up the Duff again, no. But again, again, it's all

39:39 whispers. Everyone is talking about it in,

39:42 you know, in the water polo team.

39:45 So they all know, but they all know.

39:47 Say anything again? Again, Yeah, on the 12th of

39:50 September in 1996, Kelly gives birth to a daughter named Tegan

39:55 at Auburn Hospital in Western Sydney.

39:59 This is I don't even know how to start to unpack this to explain

40:04 it to people, but I'll we'll go with.

40:06 Her story for now. And then we can come back, can't

40:09 we? I think, I think that's a good

40:10 idea. Yeah.

40:11 So she gives birth to this baby daughter and again, she nurtures

40:16 the child. She breastfeeds the child.

40:19 She's in hospital for two days. Well.

40:22 Just go back one little step prior to her giving birth.

40:26 She is, again, she's never told anyone.

40:29 So there's certain commitments she has that she has to fulfill

40:32 to I guess continue her life as the way it is.

40:35 One of those things being like there's a wedding coming up that

40:37 she's, you know, her whole family is going to be at,

40:40 obliged to be at. And so she knows this date of

40:43 this wedding is looming and it's close to within weeks of sort

40:46 of, I guess her due date for this baby that no one knows

40:50 about. But it's getting so close that

40:53 she's like, I'm not going to be able to get to this wedding if I

40:55 don't or I'm going to be looking very pregnant maybe at this

40:58 wedding. So she is pretty keen to get

41:01 this baby out and sort of, I guess done with.

41:05 So she actually goes along to one hospital to ride hospital

41:10 and and says that she's 38 weeks and I want to be induced.

41:15 I'm in terrible pain, my back's killing me.

41:18 I've just this has been a horrible pregnancy and I need to

41:20 be. Ready to I need to be induced.

41:22 They wouldn't induce her. There are a number of reasons,

41:25 Yeah. So the first thing is she was 38

41:27 weeks. There's no need for an

41:28 induction. She was medically.

41:29 Otherwise, well. And she'd also said this was her

41:31 first pregnancy. She said it was her first

41:33 pregnancy and she also had no documentation for that hospital,

41:37 so it's not like she was seeing an obstetrician there.

41:40 They had no medical records for her.

41:42 They were like, well, we can't. We need to do a lot more, you

41:45 know, than just admit you and induce you, given you 38 weeks.

41:49 Yeah, anyway. So she left, came back, tried

41:51 again with them, didn't work. They said no, still not going to

41:54 induce you. She went to ended up at Auburn

41:56 Hospital where she told them at that point that she was 40 weeks

42:00 pregnant. So so they were like, oh, well,

42:03 at 40 weeks pregnant, you know, like, Yep, probably more likely

42:07 that they're going to be able to induce her, which they did.

42:09 They induced her and she ended up giving her birth to baby

42:12 taken at Auburn Hospital instead.

42:13 And once that she gave birth, they sort of realized that she

42:15 wasn't as far along as they thought.

42:18 But that happens, I guess. You don't.

42:20 No, it doesn't. That doesn't happen.

42:22 She had, as you said, she had a commitment to get to who What?

42:26 No, no, I'm sorry. If as a as a mother, as a

42:31 mother, you want what's best for your baby.

42:34 Absolutely. And if that is going to term, if

42:38 that is whatever, whatever that is, you would think that would

42:40 be your motivation right now. She had too many lies, too many

42:44 secrets and too much going on to have the baby's best interest at

42:48 her. Oh yeah, no, she was thinking

42:49 about it was more about the secrecy.

42:51 And keeping up appearances like her fucking family have done all

42:56 her life. So I cannot even believe that

43:00 the hospital went with this. But anyway, they did, yeah.

43:03 And. Surely they do a scan and they

43:05 could have talked. I don't know, like at that stage

43:07 of pregnancy, like maybe she was measuring slightly bigger, who

43:10 knows, Who knows. Anyway, they've done what

43:13 they've done and she's had the induction and had the baby just

43:18 in the nick of time to go to the wedding two days later.

43:20 Well, she was in hospital. I think she went in for a night

43:23 and the next day was the wedding and she was like, I need to get

43:26 out of here. She was urgently trying to

43:27 leave. So she tried to be discharged

43:30 and I think there was a bit of conjecture around that, Yeah.

43:34 And she ended up actually just leaving hospital with baby Tegan

43:40 without even speaking with the nurses.

43:42 So there were several things that hadn't happened that should

43:45 have happened in that time frame before she was discharged.

43:49 One of those things is a Guthrie test.

43:51 Yeah. That happens on every newborn in

43:53 Australia. Yeah.

43:54 And that is a heel prick test that that tests for lots of

43:57 different genetic conditions. And it is just something that is

44:01 stock standard done on. It's called like the heel prick

44:03 test. It's done on every newborn baby.

44:06 Those Guthrie cards are stored indefinitely.

44:09 And they have in the past been able to inform police with like

44:13 you can extract DNA from them. It's just a dry blood spot test,

44:19 extract DNA. But because baby Tegan never had

44:22 that done, we don't have any DNA for her.

44:27 Apparently, the room that that Kelly was in during her time at

44:33 Auburn Hospital had like, a fire escape attached to it.

44:37 Just keep that in mind. Yeah, Kelly's story is that on

44:41 that day she walked out of so sorry, a man by the name of

44:45 Andrew Norris, who was the father of this child, came up

44:52 and was going to take responsibility for the child.

44:56 The back story of that is that he and his partner Mel were

45:02 unable to have babies and were trying to have babies and were

45:05 very, very excited to bring this baby into their into their care.

45:10 And it was mutually agreed among the parties that they would take

45:13 baby Tegan home. So Kelly's story is that Andrew

45:17 came up to her room, walked down, they walked down together

45:21 with baby Tegan into the foyer of the hospital in the waiting

45:25 area where Mel and Andrew's mother was in.

45:29 The were in the waiting room waiting to take this baby home.

45:32 Yep. There are several stories then

45:34 about what happened. First story is that he drove

45:38 her, Andrew drove her and dropped her at Duncan Gilly's

45:42 house, Yep. Another story is that she got a

45:44 taxi. Yep, I think there was even a

45:47 third. I can't remember whether there

45:50 was a third or was it just the two.

45:51 Anyway, she then says that she went back to Duncan's house

45:56 because she needed to pick up her suit, her outfit for the

45:59 wedding. She then went to her mum and

46:01 dad's place, which is where she met Duncan and they went on to

46:04 the wedding, Duncan and the rest of the family because they were

46:06 all going to get up. But.

46:07 She wore a white suit. It's giving total Meghan Markle

46:11 vibes. You know when she bloody walks

46:14 out to, you know, show show baby Archie to the Queen and she's

46:18 literally given birth 24 hours before and she's in a freaking

46:21 white dress. I.

46:22 Hate they make them do that anyway, but yeah, just.

46:26 What white Now? The other thing that's worth

46:31 noting is Tegan was actually born by cesarean section.

46:35 Oh my God I literally was gonna say I can't imagine if she even

46:39 had AC section. Holy cow.

46:40 Oh God. So she stand upright?

46:43 Yep. She has had major abdominal

46:46 surgery now two days before. Realize that watching that video

46:50 clip of her at the wedding, because there's obviously a

46:52 videographer at the wedding. You can see her, a footage of

46:56 her, which you know, confirms that she did go to this wedding.

46:58 That's where she was on that date.

46:59 You see her walking through that sort of woman who's just given

47:02 birth and via C-section. In a white suit.

47:05 Yeah. In.

47:07 She's, as you said, she's standing upright.

47:09 Like all my friends who've had C sections, you're sort of a bit

47:11 hunched. Hunched, I couldn't even walk

47:14 like down the corridor holding on to like, you know, they've

47:16 got the baby in the wheelie, like in the basset thing, right?

47:20 I remember walking down to the nurses station, which would have

47:22 been probably 20 meters down from my room, trying to like,

47:26 and I'm using like the nurse was with me.

47:27 So I was like almost using the wheelie thing as like a frame to

47:29 walk with, you know, but they weren't letting me like just

47:32 hold it because obviously it's not safe.

47:34 But yeah, because you needed sort of so it helped support to

47:36 walk like. That makes sense.

47:38 Like all of your like stabilizing core muscles have

47:42 been cut cut in half. Yeah, or even laying in bed,

47:46 like in flat back I was like had the bed up like because you

47:49 just, I don't know, you want to hunch over.

47:52 Yeah. I mean, even I've had both of

47:55 mine were natural deliveries. Yeah.

47:57 And even then, like, I remember walking from the delivery suite

48:00 to my room and thinking, Oh my God, they're going to let me

48:03 walk. Like I felt like I couldn't even

48:05 walk. Well, I see.

48:06 I couldn't. I couldn't even feel my legs.

48:09 There's no walking. I was like, what are these

48:11 things like? Let alone.

48:12 Let alone like all the things that happen.

48:15 After. Birth and the fluids that are

48:19 coming out, I'm not only talking like from down there, I'm

48:23 talking about like Milky sort of stuff.

48:26 And a couple of days later, her milk would be at least starting

48:29 to come. In that's the thing, like I mean

48:30 she's not taking a medication to stop that from occurring like.

48:34 Because she was could be breastfeeding.

48:36 Yeah, she was breastfeeding baby taken in in hospital.

48:39 So that would have stimulated the production of milk.

48:41 Yeah, that. Oh God, that blows my mind.

48:43 I I had it just. Leaking from.

48:45 Bad enough thinking that she'd naturally delivered, but say

48:48 second. Oh God, yeah, OK.

48:52 So there's photos of her at the wedding, as you said, there's

48:55 video footage of her at the wedding.

48:56 She's in a white suit with a white hat and she's having a

49:00 grand old time, OK? That was two days after giving

49:05 birth. Yeah, yeah.

49:07 We hear nothing else. No, that's that.

49:09 That she's. Kind of back to her, you know,

49:11 back to her normal life. Yeah, apparently after each

49:15 birth she would have. So in terms of like perceptions

49:19 from her friends and family, she'd obviously developed a

49:22 little bit of a system about how she would disappear for these

49:24 two or three days to have these births without anyone knowing.

49:27 Yeah. So her being gone for the couple

49:30 of days, no one really questioned it.

49:31 I guess she was an adult. Like, you know, what do you what

49:34 do you do? I'm.

49:34 Sorry. Someone, I mean, she was 20

49:36 something. She was 21 years old at the

49:38 time. You come and go when you're 21.

49:40 Don't. You.

49:40 She's still living with her parents I believe.

49:42 Yes. But maybe they thought she was

49:43 at Duncan's house and Duncan thought she was at home.

49:45 I don't know that people would think to question that.

49:48 I found that sad. It is sad.

49:50 Yeah, It is really, really sad because again, she was alone in

49:53 that situation. She didn't ask or reach out for

49:57 support from anyone. No, I just can't even think,

50:01 like, OK, maybe you know, your parents are.

50:03 They are who they are. You think you'd have a close

50:07 girlfriend or even your brother. I don't know somebody who you

50:11 think could support you through it.

50:12 Your boyfriend. Well, yeah, wait for all

50:16 accounts. Like, you know, why couldn't

50:18 Duncan have been the father of this baby that she could have

50:20 confessed to and said we need to sort this out?

50:24 Like, and that's the thing. You shouldn't feel alone in a

50:27 pregnancy because there are two people it takes to make it.

50:29 Absolutely. To this day we don't know who

50:32 the father of Tegan is she. So when I say she, Kelly claims

50:36 that it was Duncan again. So she claimed the first

50:40 pregnancy was dunked, the second pregnancy was sorry, the first

50:43 live birth was Duncan and the second live birth was Duncan.

50:46 But then second live birth. But then she says Andrew.

50:48 Targus, yes, but that, that comes later.

50:50 Yeah, it's it's her web of lies is so confusing and so hard to

50:56 keep track of. Absolutely.

50:59 But anyway, yeah, OK, so we're going to Fast forward now to

51:05 February of 1999. Yep, Kelly finds herself

51:08 pregnant again. She's 25 weeks along yeah, at

51:12 this point. And she flies into Queensland to

51:17 attend a an abortion clinic there that does late term

51:20 abortions. Yes, but when she gets there,

51:23 they will not terminate the pregnancy because she's too far

51:27 along. Yeah, yeah.

51:28 So I think they this this because.

51:30 This pregnancy is viable at that point, as we were saying in 2224

51:33 weeks, we're not sure exactly which is, but 25, yeah, is

51:36 definitely viable. You're beyond, you're beyond

51:38 that. And look, there are medical

51:40 reasons that people can terminate beyond that, but

51:43 obviously this clinic wasn't sort of facilitating that and.

51:47 From what they obviously they did their scans and things like

51:50 that to find this pregnancy was viable for a 25 week pregnancy.

51:54 And I mean. He said apparently she rocked up

51:57 to this clinic and said she was 13 weeks.

51:59 And then they they looked at her and it went did a scan and we're

52:02 like, oh, you're actually like 25 weeks.

52:04 And once again she's saying it's her first pregnancy, which I

52:08 mean, we've both had like 2 full term pregnant pregnancies with

52:12 each one your body, you know, the muscles and things like that

52:15 change and you, I mean, you know, people have had three and

52:19 four pregnancies. You carry in different ways.

52:21 You tend to like pop earlier and things like that.

52:24 I mean for. Sure.

52:25 Like even as you said, I've only had two pregnancies.

52:27 Yeah, my with my first, I don't think you could even tell I was

52:30 pregnant until I was 20 weeks. Yeah, same.

52:32 But with my second, I remember at 14 weeks going, Oh yeah, I

52:35 think. How about that?

52:36 Yeah, I was about 16 weeks, weeks and was like, oh, I'm

52:38 gonna need that pregnancy. Yeah, thing my genes all of a

52:40 sudden a lot earlier than last time.

52:42 Exactly. Yeah.

52:43 And everyone and everyone I talk to feels the same way that, you

52:46 know, particularly mums. I know I've had three by that

52:48 third. It's like, and I know of another

52:50 particular just recently who was pregnant with her 4th and I

52:53 reckon at around about 10 weeks you could tell she was pregnant.

52:55 Not that we were ever, ever saying.

52:57 Anything because her baby wasn't coming out of her at the time.

53:01 But she's a you know, this is her 4th pregnancy.

53:03 We're all kind of like we think we maybe she'll be telling us

53:05 soon. That's exciting.

53:08 But yeah. And eventually she told us like,

53:09 you know, we're like, yeah, we kind of thought so there's.

53:12 No hiding and hiding at that point.

53:14 So yeah, by her. This is her third live

53:16 pregnancy. You would think that her body

53:19 would be showing this differently, but again, told no

53:22 one. And yeah, I, I.

53:25 Don't know. It's bizarre.

53:27 It does, yeah. In mid 1999 she gives birth for

53:31 the third time and this time the it's a boy.

53:36 So in the court transcripts they refer to this, this young boy as

53:40 AJ. Well again, she's done no

53:48 prenatal care. So she's had the pregnancy

53:50 confirmed very early on. We know this from her Medicare

53:52 records and subsequent interviews with her GP.

53:56 So again, so she's found out that she was pregnant early

53:59 enough for long, but didn't Well, I think that like

54:01 actually. For this pregnancy, I I couldn't

54:05 find the date. Yeah.

54:06 That she attended the doctor with the first pregnancy.

54:09 She attended very early. Yes.

54:11 With Tegan, she attended very early.

54:14 When I say very early, like in the 1st 10 weeks, yeah, yeah,

54:17 with this one, I actually couldn't find a date.

54:18 I'm not curious as to when she again, like you would know

54:22 earlier to me, like knowing what that felt like and all those

54:25 things because by 25 weeks you're definitely feeling that

54:27 baby move around. Oh, for sure.

54:29 Like for sure. Yeah, so she's been refused,

54:35 obviously, the termination, the late term termination.

54:39 So she has no choice but to proceed with the pregnancy.

54:42 Yeah. Again, she's had no antenatal

54:44 care. She has made no previous

54:47 arrangements for adoption or anything like that.

54:49 So she gives birth to this baby boy and again, breastfeeds him,

54:56 cares for him while they're in hospital and asks to see a

54:58 social worker regarding. Sorry, She asks to see an

55:02 adoption agency to sort of get that process going.

55:05 Yeah, knowing with her first live birth that this can take a

55:09 really long time, she was really keen to sort of get things.

55:12 Moving along. Yeah, Yeah.

55:13 This hospital had a policy that so I think there was a social

55:17 worker involved, not not the one who eventually will come to, but

55:21 yeah, who has made a statement in the notes basically saying

55:25 that she was very emotional about this decision, but it was

55:28 the right decision for her. At the time being that she was

55:31 24 years old, she wasn't in a long term relationship.

55:33 So by this stage she had stopped her relationship with Duncan

55:38 Gillies there when in terms of timing, we're not quite sure

55:42 whether they were together at the start of her pregnancy or

55:45 whether they'd broken up just beforehand.

55:48 It has also been proven that Duncan is not the father of AJ,

55:52 so they know who the father of AJ is.

55:54 Again, that's been proven by DNA and paternity testing, and it's

56:00 not Duncan Gillies. So he's been with her for a

56:03 really long time. She's fallen pregnant three

56:05 times throughout the course of their relationship and he's not

56:08 fathered. One of them no, but he's

56:10 definitely been having sexual relations with ships with her

56:12 that. She admits it and he admits it

56:14 as in like, there's no conjecture of that.

56:16 He They both say they were actively like engaging in sexual

56:21 activity that could have resulted in a pregnancy.

56:23 But. Also him touching her body in

56:25 weight and seeing her body that would you not realize or say

56:31 something? Yeah, it's weird.

56:34 It's weird. Really, really weird.

56:35 Yeah. So with this adoption agency,

56:38 the lady who was in charge of this process for this baby, she

56:45 tries so hard to get a straight story out of Kelly and is

56:48 getting nothing, getting nowhere.

56:51 In the end, she actually had to hunt down Duncan Gillies, who is

56:57 the name again that that Kelly gave to the adoption agency as

57:01 being the father. Yeah, of this baby.

57:04 She told the the adoption agency worker that he was a rugby

57:09 player and the she she haunted around.

57:14 Yeah, Google. I don't even know if like Google

57:16 searched whatever she. Around.

57:17 Yeah, I think maybe, maybe just. But whatever she did, she found

57:22 him at a certain rugby club and wrote him a letter through the

57:27 club and eventually it got to him.

57:29 Yeah. He then contacted the adoption

57:30 agency and went, oh, I don't know nothing about this.

57:32 What? What's going on?

57:33 Yeah. And this kind of like triggered

57:36 a bit of a oh, what's going on? What's actually happening here?

57:39 Yeah. So she decided to contact docs.

57:42 So the Department of Child Services.

57:44 Yeah. And they put a child protection

57:47 worker on the case to just do an investigation, a bit of a

57:51 welfare type of situation. And they assigned a man by the

57:54 name of John Borovnik. Now tell me what you think about

57:58 him. We've seen he's in the Exposed

58:00 documentary, he's interviewed. What are your thoughts about

58:03 him? I find him very.

58:08 Interesting in what way? So I've had a little bit to do

58:12 with child protection workers and it's hit and miss of like

58:15 the kind of commitment I think they have of like how well

58:18 they're tied by a lot of legal restraints and what they can and

58:21 can't do in situations. I find them interesting people

58:26 generally. This guy to me became quite

58:29 obsessed with this. And I get it to a degree of

58:34 like, this is a very fascinating case of someone who's very

58:36 unusual, but he's getting like Tegan's name tattooed on him.

58:41 Yeah, that's the bit that got me.

58:42 So when he's being interviewed, I think he seems like a really

58:45 lovely person. Like as in he's, you can tell he

58:49 cares, right? You can.

58:53 Yeah, yeah. But to an extent that I find to

58:58 like generally speaking, child protection workers, they really

59:02 keep themselves quite removed. You'd have to.

59:04 And you and I, I respect that because I think you'd become

59:08 quite, I don't know, callous maybe.

59:11 I don't know. It would do you?

59:12 Yeah. I don't know that I could ever

59:14 do that work. No disrespect whatsoever.

59:16 Hats off to them. Absolutely.

59:18 But this guy goes the complete opposite way.

59:21 Yeah, and I find that then really hard because I want more

59:25 passion from these people sometimes.

59:28 But he's gone too far. Yeah, the fact that he had her

59:31 name attached to him, that really like.

59:33 It really it kind of just it does.

59:35 Did it give you the IT? It did, yeah.

59:36 Same. Yeah.

59:37 Yeah. I'm like, you've gone too far.

59:39 But yeah, thank goodness for him, because.

59:42 Yeah, yeah, you. Don't think so.

59:45 I just think he, I think he's taking it too far, but I know

59:48 that what he's discovered and I think it needed to be

59:50 discovered, absolutely. Because otherwise we wouldn't

59:52 even know that Tegan was a missing person.

59:54 So what he's put together is, so he's assisting the adoption

59:59 agency from a child protection standpoint.

1:00:05 He's assisting them facilitate all of this.

1:00:07 Yeah. And he interviews and has a chat

1:00:10 with Kelly, and she tells him that this is her first

1:00:15 pregnancy. To his credit, he then goes and

1:00:19 looks up. Previous history and they find

1:00:23 that first adoption. Well, I think it was one

1:00:26 hospital they rang something about he rang and said he wanted

1:00:28 to find out about her 96 pregnancy.

1:00:30 And they went, oh, no, you mean 95.

1:00:32 That's right. And then and then he went, what

1:00:33 do you mean 95? No, she was there in 96, which

1:00:35 is when she gave birth to Tegan. And they went, oh, you know,

1:00:39 she's also had a pregnancy in 95.

1:00:41 And that was when it kind of all went.

1:00:43 And they're like, hold on, hold on.

1:00:44 Where's this other baby? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:00:46 And so he's then said to Kelly, look, where is this baby?

1:00:50 Like what have you? Like, where is she?

1:00:52 Yeah. And he, she tells him the cock

1:00:55 and bull story, in my opinion, about this Andrew Norris.

1:01:00 I don't even know what to. Call him yet?

1:01:01 Well, originally in her first interview, she calls him Andrew

1:01:04 Norris. Yeah, Yeah.

1:01:05 That was her first interview with the police, not with.

1:01:08 Not with him even, but so I'm assuming she said Morris to him

1:01:10 as well at that point. I don't know.

1:01:11 Who the hell knows? She's she's given him a name.

1:01:14 Yeah. And he can't find anything to do

1:01:17 with this. And he says to Kelly, if you

1:01:20 can't show me or give me an address or find me this child, I

1:01:25 have no choice but to report her as a missing person to the

1:01:29 police. And Kelly just kind of lets that

1:01:33 happen. That's what you've got to do.

1:01:35 That's what you've got to do. That's what happened.

1:01:37 She really sticks to that of like, well, you know, that's

1:01:40 fine because I'm. I've told you home words, you

1:01:44 know. Well, I've told you everything I

1:01:46 can tell you. And what else do you want me to?

1:01:48 What else do you want me to tell you?

1:01:49 This is Yeah, go for it. Yeah, She's so interested.

1:01:53 So interesting. In December of 2000, Kelly's

1:01:57 pregnant again. It's a time to a new.

1:02:01 Boyfriend to a boyfriend and that they're engaged, you get

1:02:03 married. She's 24. 626 Yep.

1:02:08 Yep, 26 years of age, they're engaged, they're in a in a

1:02:11 relationship, a long term relationship.

1:02:12 The heat that's the father of this child is the only person

1:02:14 she's sleeping with. You know that she's settled,

1:02:17 she's in a, in a, you know, working a job that she's loving.

1:02:20 Have you seen what her mom and dad's reaction to this?

1:02:22 So this is the first pregnancy she's, like, telling people

1:02:25 about? Yeah.

1:02:27 Did you see what her mom and dad's reaction to this pregnancy

1:02:29 was? No.

1:02:30 Oh, well, you're not married. Like.

1:02:33 Oh, yeah. So they they weren't, they

1:02:34 weren't unhappy, but they wanted.

1:02:37 Them happy they wanted the wedding first.

1:02:39 Yeah, they wanted it to look legit because appearances

1:02:43 matter. Oh God.

1:02:45 That poor girl. I really what Kelly goes on to

1:02:47 say, though, is that upon the birth of this child who is a

1:02:50 girl, yeah, that, you know, she brought, brought so much joy and

1:02:55 love into their family and everybody loves her.

1:02:57 And she, it made her realize that, you know, everything's OK.

1:03:01 You know, everything works out the way it's meant to work out

1:03:03 in the end. Yeah.

1:03:04 The police don't. So the report in 1999 by John

1:03:08 Borovnik, the docs worker, he that kind of goes nowhere for a

1:03:14 couple of years. Yeah.

1:03:15 So it's not until February of 2001 that they start the

1:03:20 investigation into Tegan's disappearance.

1:03:21 When I say they, I mean the police, NSW Police.

1:03:25 Unfortunately, this is actually handed to Manly Police Station

1:03:28 to handle in the first instance and that is the police station

1:03:32 that Kelly's dad worked at and had this very big presence and

1:03:38 reputation in. Yeah, they're also going through

1:03:41 a whole lot of stuff to do with some corrupt police officers

1:03:44 there was. Like half of the people there

1:03:47 were like, terminated and whatever because it was like,

1:03:50 full of corruption and they were taking.

1:03:51 Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah.

1:03:52 That's. A whole nother story.

1:03:54 Oh yeah, yeah. So this goes straight to a

1:03:58 Coppet manly and he there's it's questionable whether or not

1:04:01 loyalty. To he knew he'd worked with Rob.

1:04:05 Yeah. So whether that kind of, you

1:04:07 know, went, Oh yeah, I don't know if I want to work on that

1:04:09 like kind of thing may have happened.

1:04:10 I don't know about that because the way that like you can see

1:04:13 interviews, the interview tapes with him and I think he just

1:04:16 takes it really lightly. Lightly.

1:04:18 Yeah. I think he's they're

1:04:19 investigating the disappearance of a child and he just kind of

1:04:23 like, I mean, I get you. You're gathering information at

1:04:26 the start. He knows nothing.

1:04:28 So OK, you're not going to be like hard and fast straight on.

1:04:31 But in this interview, she says that Andrew Morris with an M for

1:04:38 Mary, Yeah Yeah, is the father of the child.

1:04:41 And and she tells the story about handing baby Tegan over in

1:04:44 the hospital for you. It's kind of taken at face value

1:04:47 that that's what happened and they almost sort.

1:04:48 Of go OK and they're like, Oh well, we just need to find this

1:04:50 Andrew Morris guy and it'll all be good.

1:04:52 Yeah, we can close the case. Yeah, in correct.

1:04:56 So do you think too like maybe there has a bit of an attitude

1:04:59 of this? So this is a brand new baby that

1:05:03 no one knew her, no one knew she existed.

1:05:07 And I wonder whether there's a little bit of a layer of for

1:05:09 some people, like if you don't know the person, you don't know,

1:05:11 you're removed from it. There's no connection of like

1:05:13 it's not a missing person because they weren't a person.

1:05:16 Do you know what I mean? I.

1:05:17 Totally get that because my thing is, and even when I was

1:05:20 explaining to Peter this case last night, and this was

1:05:24 definitely a thought that I have that I have not seen addressed

1:05:27 anywhere, there was never a birth certificate filed for

1:05:31 Tegan Lane. Yep.

1:05:32 So does she exist in the eyes of the law?

1:05:37 But. But what I can't understand is

1:05:39 how can you have a baby in a hospital and then not submit the

1:05:45 birth certificate without it being followed up by the

1:05:49 Registry of birth, Deaths and Marriages?

1:05:50 Yeah, or followed up by some. But the hospital, I don't know

1:05:53 who has responsibility in that jurisdiction.

1:05:55 But surely because I know a friend of mine who had a baby

1:05:59 and she just kind of like, in the throes of it, forgot to like

1:06:03 that she filled it out, just hadn't posted it off yet.

1:06:05 Yeah. And she actually got a letter to

1:06:07 say you must register this baby's birth.

1:06:09 Within. 12 weeks or whatever of birth, yeah.

1:06:12 Five weeks or whatever the hospital submit whatever to

1:06:15 Yeah, like birthdays, marriages, yeah.

1:06:17 And then the paperwork has to come from you to marry that up.

1:06:19 So they sort of have this open case kind of thing.

1:06:22 So did no one follow that up with baby Teagan?

1:06:24 Yeah, mustn't have have. Yeah, but I guess back in the

1:06:27 night at sea, I mean, I go back to like, I mean, this is a long

1:06:29 time before like my dad's birth certificate is fucked up.

1:06:32 Like there's there's been name changes on that that you can

1:06:34 actually, he can actually pull out pieces of paper basically

1:06:36 with different names on it. You know, there's weird stuff

1:06:39 that's going on in the past in birthdays and marriages and

1:06:43 whether or not computers would only really just really new

1:06:46 computer systems would have been new to it.

1:06:48 I don't know whether or not it's just got lost in the system.

1:06:50 It must have because it has never been followed.

1:06:53 Up. No, no.

1:06:54 SO. We've got a baby who's been born

1:06:57 that has no birth certificate and record of it.

1:07:00 No record. Yeah.

1:07:01 I mean, the only. This is the thing, though, the

1:07:03 only record that we like that we know she existed and that she

1:07:07 was born is because there are hospital notes.

1:07:09 Yeah. And because Kelly named her.

1:07:12 Yeah. Then her name is on all of that,

1:07:16 all of the hospital notes and documentation.

1:07:18 Yeah. Yeah.

1:07:20 So in nothing much comes of that after the interview, not after

1:07:25 that first interview in June of on the 20th of June in 2005, an

1:07:30 inquest into Tegan's disappearance and suspected

1:07:33 death commences. Now this inquest is interesting

1:07:40 and I think look, I think at the end of the day, it ended where

1:07:46 it needed to end. But there was a lot of, I don't

1:07:51 know, a lot of in and out, back and forth, a lot of not quite

1:07:56 truths, a lot of things that were not investigated properly

1:08:01 that were being presented. Not every single person who had

1:08:05 involvement in the case was interviewed or brought to the

1:08:08 court for the inquest. I think it was somewhat lacking

1:08:12 in certain respects. However, the conclusion of the

1:08:16 inquest was that on the balance of probability, baby Tegan was

1:08:22 dead and a homicide investigation needed to be

1:08:26 entered into by NSW Police. I struggle with that.

1:08:30 Why? Where's the evidence that she's

1:08:33 dead? Where is she?

1:08:35 That's where I like I, I fully agree with the coroner

1:08:39 concluding that there needs to be an investigation 100% and a

1:08:43 prop up full investigation, but I I just can't see how you can

1:08:48 conclude that she's dead. You don't know.

1:08:52 No, OK, I I disagree, I think. There's enough evidence to prove

1:08:56 it, I think. She's not dead.

1:08:57 I think on the balance of probability she is dead.

1:09:00 I don't disagree, but there's reasonable doubt.

1:09:05 Oh, oh, don't get me wrong. Criminally, yeah, absolutely.

1:09:09 And there is reasonable. Doubt the threshold of a

1:09:11 coroner's court saying she's dead.

1:09:13 No, it is on the balance of probability for a coronial

1:09:15 inquest. So I I fully agree with the fact

1:09:19 that on the balance of probability this child is dead.

1:09:24 I disagree that it is beyond a reasonable doubt in a Criminal

1:09:29 Court that she is dead, because there is no proof either way.

1:09:32 I. Guess that's where, yeah, like

1:09:34 so if that's what the threshold is, then OK, because I just,

1:09:38 this is where I get really lost of how to comprehend this

1:09:44 outcome of all this. Because there are so many lies,

1:09:46 there's so much to I'm so much. And you can like you can choose

1:09:49 to believe that which will which will lead you to that

1:09:52 conclusion, or you can choose to believe the other side of things

1:09:55 which will lead you to a completely different.

1:09:57 Conclusion Or there can just be a whole other story going on

1:09:59 here completely. And that could be truth too.

1:10:01 And absolutely, I just really struggle.

1:10:04 I struggle with that being the coroner's outcome.

1:10:07 I really, I do. I understand.

1:10:09 Like, yeah, I don't know if I can come at it because I just

1:10:12 don't feel like, I feel like there's enough.

1:10:16 I feel as though there isn't enough evidence to suggest that

1:10:19 that can be the only outcome. So what the coroner said was

1:10:23 that due to the constraints of time around needing to get to

1:10:28 this wedding, which she had to get to because she had to save

1:10:31 face and appearances were everything, he completely

1:10:34 acknowledged that. He said she was caught in a, in

1:10:41 a, in a basically in a zone or in a wall.

1:10:45 Exactly she exactly she was backed against a wall.

1:10:48 She had nothing else to do. Yep, I do agree with that.

1:10:53 So I guess it's that threshold of what it is that.

1:10:55 Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

1:10:56 OK. All right, OK.

1:10:57 Yeah. I'll bend, need to bend.

1:11:00 You can think what you want to think, but I I think, I reckon

1:11:03 the coroner nailed it. OK, I think he got it right.

1:11:05 Yeah, I mean 100% more investigation needed to happen

1:11:08 to this. Like I absolutely.

1:11:10 It's just it's just whether or not that whether categorically

1:11:13 she's dead I. Just I think the term that he

1:11:15 used is most likely dead. Right.

1:11:18 OK, that I can come out OK. Yeah, yeah.

1:11:22 Cool. In December of 20.

1:11:24 Oh, sorry. So in February of 2026, at the

1:11:27 conclusion of the of the inquest, yeah, it's, you know,

1:11:31 the the matter is referred over to the unsolved homicide squad.

1:11:36 So it's a whole case unit essentially, Yeah.

1:11:39 And this is when. Can we just go back to 101 other

1:11:41 bit just before like when they they interviewed her just before

1:11:44 it was going to go to the coroner.

1:11:45 There's an interview that it's on tape of her beings and she's

1:11:50 basically putting putting to her one final time like I need more

1:11:53 information on this Kelly. Otherwise it's going to be going

1:11:55 to the coroner, which makes it public.

1:11:57 Oh yeah. And her reaction to that I find

1:12:00 really fascinating. Like she's so like just they say

1:12:03 to her, did you kill your baby? And she's like, no, I did not do

1:12:07 that. Like, no, like.

1:12:08 And then when they say to her, you know, all right, well, if

1:12:11 you can't give me any more information, they really, really

1:12:13 give her every opportunity to come clean and say more.

1:12:16 And in a very, I think a very good way like that.

1:12:19 We're not blaming her on anything.

1:12:20 They're like, come on, you can just tell us what happened, Give

1:12:23 us the names of people, tell us more information.

1:12:25 And then we don't have to go down that path.

1:12:26 We can just keep investigating kind of thing.

1:12:28 But they were at a crossroads of like, we've got nothing else

1:12:30 other than your lies, tell us the truth sort of stuff.

1:12:33 And we can keep moving or we've got to go to the coroner's

1:12:36 report and make this something else.

1:12:38 And, and she just, yeah, she's like, no, you can't make this

1:12:42 public. I don't want people knowing

1:12:43 like, you can't do that to me. Like it's it was all about the

1:12:45 perception again. And she's, she actually says in

1:12:48 that as well, she's like, what will my mum and dad?

1:12:50 Think yeah, immediately. It's what will Mum and Dad

1:12:52 think. Yeah, yeah.

1:12:55 Well, her mum and dad, Oh my God, we haven't even gotten

1:12:58 close to them. Yet.

1:12:59 Oh God no. Fuck.

1:13:01 So yeah. So we're now at a point where

1:13:04 she's being interviewed again by the police.

1:13:06 This is her second interview and is she pregnant at this time?

1:13:11 Or had she just had the just? Had the baby maybe so I think

1:13:14 she's. Yeah, got another baby at the.

1:13:15 Yeah. And she was about to get

1:13:17 married. Yeah.

1:13:18 And she actually, they by this stage as well, they'd wiretapped

1:13:22 her phone and they'd put listening devices in her car and

1:13:25 in her house. Yeah.

1:13:26 And she rings a friend. So she actually, she must have

1:13:29 had the baby because she rings a friend and says, can you look

1:13:32 after my baby? I've got to go to a dress

1:13:35 fitting. But it turned out she actually

1:13:37 was going to be interviewed by the police about the homicide

1:13:40 of. She didn't tell anybody about

1:13:42 any of this. Still going on She's.

1:13:43 Like nobody knows. Still got this other life sort

1:13:46 of stuff that she lives her life and then I've got to deal with

1:13:48 this stuff in the background that she's not telling anyone

1:13:51 about, no. During the phone taps.

1:13:53 I found that really, really interesting, the conversations

1:13:58 between Kelly and her mom on those phone taps, because her

1:14:01 mom is absolutely questioning how this could happen.

1:14:05 She genuinely says that she didn't know anything about her

1:14:09 daughter, who was living in her home, being pregnant freaking

1:14:12 five times at this point. Yeah, she.

1:14:16 She even said something like along the lines of oh, like, so

1:14:19 you're saying like some a single bloke or some guy once wanted to

1:14:23 raise the baby. Like, that just doesn't make

1:14:25 sense, Kelly like. She's very cold.

1:14:27 Oh, she's a, she's a very interesting person, Yeah.

1:14:32 I mean, she has nothing to do with this.

1:14:34 Like she's not absolutely by no means, however like yeah, in the

1:14:38 situation, but she, I mean, she's definitely played a role

1:14:41 in raising Kelly in a certain way and I.

1:14:45 If Kelly obviously felt she couldn't go to her parents and

1:14:47 go, I'm in this really dreadful situation, yeah, Help, yeah.

1:14:51 You know. I.

1:14:52 I need some support, get that by having seen the bits of pieces

1:14:56 of who she is and I look, I don't know her at all, but I

1:15:00 don't think you'd feel comfortable going and talking to

1:15:02 her about anything emotional, that's for damn sure.

1:15:04 No, she's very like Hardline and and look at the dad is he's a

1:15:09 bit goofy or something like he's a bit of an interesting

1:15:12 character in and of himself. But and I can imagine he just he

1:15:18 just says what his wife says. Like he's obviously toeing the

1:15:21 party line there. They are adamant that they knew

1:15:25 nothing about these pregnancies. But what I find interesting in

1:15:29 these phone taps between Kelly and Sandra is Kelly will repeat

1:15:37 every question that he's asked of her.

1:15:39 And it's like she has to formulate an answer.

1:15:42 So she repeats the question. So for example, her mum's like,

1:15:45 well, what happened to the baby? And she goes, what, what

1:15:47 happened to the baby? Oh, well, I gave it to Andrew

1:15:51 and and I found that like in in these phone taps, I'm like, oh,

1:15:55 that's really interesting. Yeah, right.

1:15:57 She's. Bidding her time.

1:15:58 She's giving herself a time to think about what was my lie?

1:16:03 Yeah, you know, because. If it was the truth, it.

1:16:05 Would just roll off the tongue. It was, you know, you don't have

1:16:08 to think about the truth. Yeah, but she has to think about

1:16:10 the stories that she's told and the names that she's given and

1:16:14 make sure she gets pens and is not mixed.

1:16:16 Up. She almost doesn't think about

1:16:17 the story that she's told. She just tells a new lie every

1:16:20 time. And I feel like that she doesn't

1:16:22 have this understanding of that. It needs to make sequential

1:16:24 sense. Like, otherwise people won't

1:16:26 believe you because she doesn't seem to worry about that in her

1:16:30 lies. Yeah.

1:16:31 It's so fascinating. It's so, so true.

1:16:37 Just this is going back to the inquest, but I found this really

1:16:41 interesting little bit of information that came came up.

1:16:43 So when they were during the inquest, there were 10s like

1:16:48 hundreds, probably of thousands of pieces of paper, that of

1:16:52 documentation that the coroner went through.

1:16:54 And part of that was they did, the police did, or the council

1:16:58 assisting and the police in their brief of evidence searched

1:17:03 every school in Australia for Tegan, because by this stage she

1:17:09 would have been school aged. Yeah.

1:17:11 Now they looked for females born on the 12th of September in or

1:17:16 thereabouts or thereabouts. I think they gave days either

1:17:19 either side. Yeah.

1:17:21 They found a girl by the name of Tegan Chapman with the same date

1:17:27 of birth. Her birth certificate listed an

1:17:30 Ellen Norris as the father. Yep.

1:17:33 And so they thought, oh, my God, you've found her.

1:17:35 We've found her. We've actually found her.

1:17:38 DNA testing proved it wasn't her.

1:17:40 Yeah. But, well, coincidence.

1:17:41 What a coincidence. Yeah, what a coincidence.

1:17:44 Yeah. So look, I think, you know,

1:17:47 things are exhaustive in that respect.

1:17:49 They've then gone to trial, basically.

1:17:52 Yeah. So they have.

1:17:54 The police have done everything in their power to try and find

1:17:57 Tegan, to try and find Andrew Norris Morris and for somebody

1:18:03 to come forward. Yeah, they have very.

1:18:06 Public, you know, once it hit the media and stuff too, that I

1:18:10 mean, if you, if, if anyone happened to know someone who fit

1:18:12 this category, you know, someone would have nudged them to step

1:18:15 forward if they were in Australia and.

1:18:17 If you were a decent human being and you saw that somebody you

1:18:21 knew who was the biological mother of your child was

1:18:25 potentially going to end up in prison because you're hiding for

1:18:30 some unknown reason, that there's no reason for him to

1:18:32 hide. He's done nothing wrong.

1:18:33 He's the father of the child. He's biologically, you know,

1:18:35 he's legally allowed to have this baby.

1:18:38 He didn't register the birth. So he would be, there'd be a few

1:18:40 things he could be, I guess, held accountable for, but

1:18:44 they're nothing compared to. Using sure, they'd all be

1:18:47 pardoned if they found Tegan and oh thank God we found it.

1:18:50 Exactly. There'd be there'd be a few

1:18:52 things that he would have needed to check boxes on and that he

1:18:54 hasn't that have done. And that's where that story just

1:18:56 sort of starts to get a bit. It really doesn't, really.

1:18:58 And like that this is the thing that gets me.

1:19:00 Yeah. This is what makes me think

1:19:02 personally that Tegan is not alive.

1:19:05 She's never been registered, had a birth registered.

1:19:08 Now you know. In Australia it is really

1:19:11 difficult to do anything without a birth certificate these days.

1:19:14 You cannot open a bank account, you cannot get a job, you cannot

1:19:19 get a passport, you cannot register a child to school.

1:19:22 And Medicare, like there's nothing's been medical, nothing

1:19:25 on Medicare. Has been.

1:19:26 And you can't tell me that a child in their entire life does

1:19:31 not need to at least go to the doctor.

1:19:32 Yeah. 20 times. Probably through a childhood if,

1:19:35 you know, that's just a standard thing.

1:19:37 Exactly. Let alone once.

1:19:39 Yeah, so either Andrew Norris Morris is an incredibly

1:19:42 neglectful father. Or the child was taken overseas.

1:19:46 That's possible because apparently in 1996 a a very an

1:19:51 early infant like so I think if you are under three months of

1:19:54 age, you could actually travel out of the country without a

1:19:57 passport. Yeah, yeah.

1:19:58 So that that is certainly. A possibility.

1:20:01 So records were checked though, and I don't think they ever

1:20:05 found that an Andrew Norris Morris had left the country, no,

1:20:08 within that three months. But if that's.

1:20:09 It I mean, that's again, if the name is correct, that's exactly

1:20:12 so we can't rule out entirely. That that was.

1:20:16 Possible at the time. Yep.

1:20:18 But what I'm saying is by the name Kelly Gay, Yes.

1:20:20 By that name. Yeah, nobody left.

1:20:22 No, the country. But yeah, Yep.

1:20:25 By that name. Yep.

1:20:28 So OK, we're the. Stories definitely not true

1:20:32 there. There's I think there's elements

1:20:34 of truth. Potentially the guys name was

1:20:35 Andrew but not Norris. So at the end of that exposed

1:20:39 document, yeah, that comes out essentially, Kelly basically

1:20:42 says because Caro, by this stage, is frustrated.

1:20:46 Wouldn't you be? You're in a web of these lies.

1:20:49 Nobody knows what what's truth, what's not, what's half lies,

1:20:52 what's not. That's what.

1:20:53 Really is frustrating about this is everyone's trying to help

1:20:55 her. Everyone she's the one reaching

1:20:58 out to get. Help from these people and

1:21:00 people are actually trying super hard to help her out here and

1:21:04 she's not helping herself. No, because then to sit in that

1:21:07 interview and finally admit that, well, maybe I've got the,

1:21:10 you know, his surname wrong. Oh, fuck.

1:21:12 We we're talking, you know, 13-14 years down the track,

1:21:15 Kelly like and you've and you've been.

1:21:17 Adamant that it's no, it's definitely Andrew Norris.

1:21:20 Definitely, definitely, definitely.

1:21:21 And then at the, you know, at the Last Post, you're like, oh,

1:21:24 OK, well, maybe it wasn't his name was Andrew, but maybe,

1:21:27 maybe it wasn't Norris. Fucking.

1:21:30 Are you fucking kidding me? How much money and time and

1:21:33 resource and energy and how many lives have been affected by

1:21:35 this? Definitely the police, the

1:21:37 homicide detective investigating this.

1:21:39 She ended up quitting the force after this due to PTSD from this

1:21:44 case. Now she the previous case to

1:21:46 this that she investigated, Yeah.

1:21:48 Was. The rape and murder of a

1:21:51 three-year old boy. And that didn't.

1:21:54 Break that didn't break her. This.

1:21:56 Broke her. This is the one that broke her.

1:21:58 Yeah, I I get it's sometimes it's layer upon layer and at

1:22:01 this, you know, this world that breaks the camel's.

1:22:03 Back she's not the only one who who says the same thing.

1:22:05 I mean just just. A case, yes.

1:22:07 He he like he was up for a time and age, but again, he was like,

1:22:10 I'm not doing any more criminal cases.

1:22:11 I. Cannot do another criminal case.

1:22:13 After that, I'm done. So many people have been broken

1:22:16 by this. Yeah, and I do.

1:22:18 I get it but at the same time I'm like she just is not helping

1:22:21 herself. No, she's not she was up for

1:22:24 parole on the 12th of May this year in oh sorry, in 2024 yeah,

1:22:28 but she due to the new no body no parole laws in the in NSW,

1:22:35 which were actually brought about for the Lindors in case

1:22:37 they really. Well, they were already existed,

1:22:40 but they were able to be used discretionally.

1:22:44 So this is where I get a little I'm I have a little bit of an

1:22:47 issue with this. So discretionally it could have

1:22:50 been used at any point. You could say that a parole

1:22:53 board have the right to say you've not shown us a body.

1:22:56 You there's enough evidence to suggest you know where it is.

1:23:00 So therefore you don't get parole.

1:23:03 But now the law is there's no question about it.

1:23:05 If there's no body, you don't get parole.

1:23:08 There's no no if buts about it. So that different that law could

1:23:13 still exist and still be used against Chris Dawson without it

1:23:17 being compulsory. So why did they do that?

1:23:20 Because. Because it was the IT was they

1:23:21 basically I think they'd fucked up so much so.

1:23:23 But so the government were like, Oh yeah, yeah, we're we're

1:23:25 shutting this down. We're gonna do something about

1:23:27 this. And so I I feel I honestly, I do

1:23:30 agree with it's the judge in the case has written letters to the

1:23:32 government about it. Yeah, trying to he's trying to

1:23:35 reverse reversed because and I and I do I agree with him fully

1:23:38 on it. Yeah, at the time when I heard

1:23:40 about this, nobody, no parole law in relation to Chris Dawson,

1:23:44 I'm like, yeah, that needs to be in place.

1:23:46 But now it's been explained to me how legally it works.

1:23:49 It could have already been used. It didn't have.

1:23:52 Really frustrating because I think in this case, you know, as

1:23:56 as I've said already, I think she's not guilty beyond a

1:23:59 reason, beyond a reasonable doubt.

1:24:01 I there in I personally think that she she, I don't think she

1:24:09 actively murdered baby Tegan. My theory is that she left the

1:24:13 hospital. She was bound by the time frame

1:24:18 by which she needed to get to this wedding, which to her

1:24:20 again, appearances were everything she had to get there.

1:24:23 I think she's left baby Tegan somewhere and she's passed away

1:24:27 in in the course of events. I mean, she was a bloody 2 day

1:24:29 old baby who they need so much active care.

1:24:34 She's died and has obviously been hidden somewhere that she

1:24:39 hasn't been found. She hasn't been found.

1:24:41 And yeah, yeah. But we don't know that.

1:24:46 No, and I think enough in the court process, in the trial, I,

1:24:51 I honest to God, I don't know how they came to that conclusion

1:24:54 that there was not enough. That wasn't reasonable doubt.

1:24:55 And they've, you know, convicted her because the prosecution did

1:24:59 not do the, their, their full job of proving that there that

1:25:05 Tegan's dead. And that's where I was.

1:25:07 I, I sort of query that. I think I feel like the coroner

1:25:10 saying she's dead gives that weight to say that, you know, in

1:25:14 that court hearing that, oh, well, she's dead.

1:25:16 So therefore there is a body somewhere.

1:25:18 And that's where I find that link between those two.

1:25:20 You haven't proven that. No, And that's where I find that

1:25:23 really hard to differentiate those two.

1:25:26 I hear what you're saying around the different thresholds of like

1:25:28 a coroner to say it, but then I feel like it impacts a jury of

1:25:32 irregular Joe blows of going, well, the coroner says she's

1:25:34 dead. So then she's dead.

1:25:36 But we can't actually. We have no evidence of that.

1:25:38 The other thing that comes into play in a trial is there's like

1:25:42 a lot of game playing that goes on.

1:25:43 There were witnesses subbed in and out.

1:25:45 Yeah. So people that we that the jury

1:25:48 could have heard from that may have swayed them in a certain

1:25:50 way or given more weight to an argument, we're not able to be

1:25:57 brought before the jury. Yeah.

1:25:59 And so I think there's a lot around that, too.

1:26:02 My God, we could literally talk about this for days because

1:26:05 there's so much to it. I mean, there was the judge

1:26:07 really tried to give the defence a lot of times to like another

1:26:11 part of this was that in her trial they couldn't because they

1:26:16 were, They're completely unrelated.

1:26:17 The other pregnancies are completely unrelated to Tegan

1:26:20 and her missing, Right. Yeah.

1:26:22 So they were not to be brought up.

1:26:25 So what did the prosecution do? Mark Tedeschi.

1:26:27 Mark Tedeschi. He we helped basically brought

1:26:30 forward so more charges on her. These three perjury charges,

1:26:35 which, look, they're legit. She did perjure herself.

1:26:38 She absolutely lied 100%. There's no question about that.

1:26:42 And the defense there, the defenses I sort of go to Kelly

1:26:45 on this was, you know, look, you did.

1:26:47 We're not going to lie about it. We're going to fight all of it.

1:26:50 We'll just fight the lot. Yeah.

1:26:51 The simple fact of the matter is very typically in these sorts of

1:26:54 things, obviously a perjury charge is far less than a murder

1:26:57 charge. Yeah.

1:26:59 And so you want to focus on the murder, right, To be able to get

1:27:01 a result from that. Many, many, many times what

1:27:04 they'll do is say, look, let's forget the little perjury

1:27:07 charges and focus on the murder charge.

1:27:09 And the judge was really pushing for the defence to set to put a

1:27:12 motion forward and say can we remove the perjury charges?

1:27:14 I think he even said I was very explicit in saying would you

1:27:18 like to have these charges tabled?

1:27:21 And they were like, no, no, no, it's fine, no.

1:27:23 We're just going to go for it. And he was like, Are you sure

1:27:27 he. Really, 'cause he, and he's

1:27:28 admitted to this day, it's gonna happen that if he had been asked

1:27:31 to remove them, he would have? Yes.

1:27:32 And that would have meant that none of the stuff about the

1:27:35 other babies would have been admissible because, because

1:27:37 those perjury charges remained, the jury got the whole salacious

1:27:41 story of previous pregnancies. Of her terminations of her

1:27:45 promiscuity, I don't even which I feel I don't know how

1:27:47 promiscuity even comes into this.

1:27:49 This is because that has literally nothing to do with the

1:27:52 fact that she's up for a murder charge against a child she's

1:27:57 delivered I. I have a real issue with that,

1:28:00 that I feel like she was actually convicted of being

1:28:03 promiscuous. Like being a slut.

1:28:05 Instead of the murder of a baby. Yeah, I I fully agree with.

1:28:08 You I but the evidence was not there to actually convict.

1:28:11 I'm not saying that I don't think she did or didn't murder

1:28:14 SO. You think you think Tegan's

1:28:15 dead? I don't know, I think she's

1:28:19 dead. I'm I very much probably lean

1:28:22 slightly that way. Look, her story about Andrew

1:28:24 Norris and that there was Mel and her and his mum sitting.

1:28:28 In the fire bit, even the Mel. Such bullshit I don't believe.

1:28:32 Oh yeah, I'll just take on this other woman's child.

1:28:35 Yeah, yeah, yeah. You cheated on me, but let's.

1:28:38 Raise the child from that. I think the other thing that

1:28:40 sits uncomfortable uncomfortably with me and look, this is just

1:28:45 the nature of society, I suppose, is that people would

1:28:49 rather believe that Kelly killed her baby.

1:28:53 Yeah, then that the dad would want to take responsibility for

1:28:56 that baby without the mother being involved, without the

1:28:59 biological mother being involved.

1:29:00 Yes. Yeah, I think that's a question

1:29:03 we need to ask ourselves as well.

1:29:04 Yeah, yeah. But I still think Tegan's dead.

1:29:08 I cannot rule out that she didn't hand the baby to someone.

1:29:14 But then where is she? Absolutely, because there's a

1:29:17 moment where where I think it's Carol actually asks her, well,

1:29:24 OK, So what who did you pass the baby to?

1:29:26 You know, like tell me more about this Andrew person or

1:29:28 whatever. And she goes, I don't have to

1:29:30 tell you any more than what I've told you.

1:29:31 Like she's I don't. She's very defensive.

1:29:35 And it's almost like this break in it in that that you kind of

1:29:38 go, there's someone she passed it to, but she's not going to

1:29:40 change. Like she's not going to tell you

1:29:42 who it was. See, I interpreted that so

1:29:46 differently. I thought when I saw that, that

1:29:50 she was like, I've made-up this story and I'm within my

1:29:53 parameters and I can't think outside of it.

1:29:54 So don't ask me any more questions.

1:29:56 This is my story and I'm sticking to.

1:29:57 It. Yeah, Yeah.

1:29:58 I don't know. Look, I have a theory of that

1:30:01 she's walked out through that fire escape door and potentially

1:30:05 gone near the dumpsters at the back of the hospital there and

1:30:07 has left the baby there. I I don't think she actually

1:30:09 like, say, you know, slit a baby.

1:30:11 I'm sorry. No, I any other agree with that?

1:30:12 I cannot actually. I cannot have someone suggest

1:30:16 that I don't think she has physically murdered the child.

1:30:19 Actively murdered the child. I think she's left it somewhere,

1:30:22 as you said, yeah, I really do. And look, that's I think that's

1:30:25 a plausible potential story of what's gone on.

1:30:28 But I also probably slightly less than could could also think

1:30:32 think that there's someone who has said I'll sort the baby out

1:30:35 for you and has taken the baby from me.

1:30:38 I can't and whether that's again got on a plane and.

1:30:40 Then they've seen somehow been able to obtain a birth

1:30:42 certificate for the child somewhere.

1:30:44 I can't. Just because I can't rule it out

1:30:47 entirely, there's no evidence to suggest.

1:30:49 That this I'm. With that's where I can't go.

1:30:52 Yeah, you know that didn't happen.

1:30:53 Yeah, but I probably err on the side more of like her putting

1:30:56 the baby somewhere. You know, we are law abiding

1:30:58 citizens, so we don't know how you would illicitly obtain a

1:31:03 birth certificate, but there's probably ways that you could

1:31:05 potentially do that. And then in that you would

1:31:07 completely change their name, you could even change their date

1:31:09 of birth and nobody would actually know.

1:31:11 So look, I get that that that's possible.

1:31:15 Is that likely? I don't think so.

1:31:17 It's not as likely Like I, I will, absolutely.

1:31:20 Yeah. You know, they agree with that.

1:31:22 Yeah. But I just think that her being

1:31:25 convicted I find really challenging.

1:31:27 I don't think there was the evidence as it was was not

1:31:29 beyond a reasonable doubt that she murdered a baby and deserved

1:31:33 to be in jail. Yeah, well, for 18 years is what

1:31:36 she was convicted of. And now it will probably it will

1:31:38 both like most likely be that full 18 years with no no parole

1:31:42 due to the fact there's no body. So, yeah, so from the time she

1:31:45 was up for parole until her full sentence was like 4 1/2 years or

1:31:49 four years, seven months, something like that, Yeah.

1:31:51 So she will have to serve that extra 4.

1:31:53 Years unless things change in the meantime of that law and.

1:31:57 She got what she got now 3 1/2 years left of her sentence.

1:32:00 I mean, anytime you can get off at your wood, wouldn't you, I

1:32:02 mean. I mean her, her daughter who she

1:32:05 was raising is now a teenager. You know that's the time in your

1:32:07 life when you need your mum. Yeah.

1:32:09 And I I mean, I struggle with that of like where So there was

1:32:12 someone who said that these nobody, no, no, no parole laws

1:32:16 were brought into place. Something might be the judge

1:32:18 saying they were brought into place to support the family of

1:32:21 victims, right? And so, you know, give them

1:32:24 closure and things like that, that this was how this things

1:32:26 would work. The family of taken is Kelly.

1:32:32 So they're punishing her twice over, right?

1:32:35 They're not giving her the opportunity to be a mother to

1:32:38 the daughter that she did want and has, but they're also

1:32:41 punishing her like for potentially something she didn't

1:32:44 do. Yeah, I'll look.

1:32:45 I don't know. I think we could, we could go

1:32:47 around about these circles on this for days.

1:32:49 But yeah. Do you think we should leave it

1:32:50 there? Have you got anything else you

1:32:51 wanted to? Just trying to think there's

1:32:53 anything else but because it just is endless.

1:32:55 And it is. It is absolutely.

1:32:57 And yeah. I mean she's been looked at by

1:32:59 psychologists and etc and many different people got different

1:33:01 opinions on her psychological makeup as I said.

1:33:04 You can find people to support whatever theory you may have.

1:33:07 Absolutely. Doctor Xanthi Mallett was

1:33:09 interviewed in relation to this case, and she'll come up in a

1:33:11 lot of the cases we're gonna be doing in the future.

1:33:14 Yeah, But she one of the quotes she said is just because you're

1:33:17 a liar doesn't mean you're a murderer.

1:33:18 Mm. Hmm.

1:33:19 Yeah. But.

1:33:21 And that, that sums up, you know, Kelly to a tea.

1:33:23 Kelly to an absolute tea. Absolutely.

1:33:26 Just really quickly, I went to Reddit.

1:33:30 Fucking fucking knows why. But you know, you're scraping

1:33:33 the bottom of the barrel for research when you go to Reddit.

1:33:36 But this so somebody but with the handle.

1:33:39 The Illuminary has summed up my thoughts and feelings so

1:33:44 eloquently. So I'm just gonna read it to

1:33:46 you. Yeah, Yeah.

1:33:47 I don't believe the prosecution proved Kelly murdered Tegan

1:33:50 beyond a reasonable doubt to be legally convicted, but I also

1:33:53 can't think of any other plausible explanation of what

1:33:56 happened to Tegan considering her fuck ton of lies and a

1:33:59 continued inability to prove her side of the story.

1:34:02 Yeah, totally. That's that's literally how I

1:34:05 feel. Yeah.

1:34:06 So thanks, Reddit. Yes.

1:34:08 No. Spot on.

1:34:09 Yeah, fuck ton of lies. Yeah, fuck ton of.

1:34:11 Lies. Look, I think she just needs to

1:34:13 come clean. Yeah.

1:34:15 I tell the truth, it's really frustrating.

1:34:17 It is we all wanna know for our own sanity.

1:34:21 I mean, I have to also just sort of state like as much as like

1:34:23 the jury. I think jury got it wrong 100%.

1:34:25 Yeah. They did take 8 days to come to

1:34:26 that conclusion and it ended up being 11 to one.

1:34:30 And the judge made the call that they would go with majority

1:34:32 rule. Yeah, as.

1:34:33 Opposed to unanimous. And even though to this day he

1:34:36 has come out and said that he doesn't think that should have

1:34:38 gone that way. Yeah.

1:34:39 So but he also has a his job is he's get the preceding.

1:34:43 He, well, that was not his job, but he was, he wasn't to do that

1:34:45 in that situation. So he was very good at what he,

1:34:48 you know, at his job. Yeah, really.

1:34:50 He did, yeah. He did a good job.

1:34:51 But Oh my God. All right, let's leave it there

1:34:54 because as I said, we could talk about this for days.

1:34:56 Please join us on next week's episode.

1:34:58 We're going to be covering the jinx.

1:34:59 It's a huge one. Big one.

1:35:02 Yeah, we've got, I've got, we've got a lot of research to do.

1:35:04 Yeah, yeah, I'm so watching that Netflix show again.

1:35:08 Colours. Let's do it.

1:35:09 Thank you, everybody, for joining us for another episode

1:35:12 of Two Crime Besties. Don't forget to, you know,

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1:35:32 Stay curious. Crime besties.

1:35:34 Bye.