Episode 27 - Grace Millane

0:16 Welcome back to Crime Besties to another episode. Hey Emma, how you doing? I am really excited we are recording our final episode of 2024. That freaks me out entirely in so many ways. I know. Well, yeah, that's it. Yeah. So go ask. First of all, I know we say that a lot, but you know. We're proud of. Us on the back we're. Allowed to be proud of us. Yeah, we've done like, what is this episode 27 is it? Yeah, yeah. So like we're we're six months down the track and consistently producing an episode every week.

0:47 So I think we've done really, really well and we. Really funny, I was flicking through some photos last night to try and find, well, 'cause I take a photo of my box that I leave out for the kids every Christmas so that I know what I put in it last year so I know what to put in it this year. Mm hmm. Anyway, so so I was trying to find that photo of like it flicking back into my photos from last year. And so as I went through, I think there's a photo from it was about February, March of us to set up with our podcast, like kind of like, you know, selfie of like a setup.

1:13 And I'm like, Jeez, Feb, that seems a little early to take us that long to get it. It did it. And I'm like, it did actually, because we started like we sort of had a few, you know, like false starts and things before we got like an actual episode. And then we recorded a few and banked them because we will be like, do we really want to do this? Do we want to release these like we when we recorded them at first we're like, oh God, do we just do we practice more? Do we? I don't know. And then we're like, no, we just need to bite the bullet and get it out there.

1:39 That Band-Aid off, Yeah, yeah, but. I think when we were recording in Feb, we were just trying to actually figure out how microphones. How the microphones worked, it was all I think that's what it was. It was just doing a setup of kind of like how do how do we do this? Like I. Feel like we didn't record our first episode until like April or May, Yeah. And then we released it in June, yeah. So yeah. Yeah, I think we're just doing some tests. But yeah, it was just cute. I was like, Oh my God. Wow.

2:02 And our setups changed heaps entirely. Yeah. And we've got it down pat. We were, you know, getting ready for the recording. We used. It used to take us all day to. Yeah, to get going. Yeah. We'd literally like drop the kids off. And be like, oh crap, we've got to go back and pick them up. Yeah, and now we're we're bloody well oiled machine we. Can get so much done on a Friday as well as a record. Yeah, we've been to. Assembly, Yeah, it went to assembly this morning and we've both got appointments this afternoon that will well and truly easily get 2.

2:28 So yeah, now I was thinking about what we could have a bit of a chat about before the podcast today, and I don't know why this memory popped in my head, but I wanna know what is it's very Christmas theme, this question, What is the worst KK present you've ever been given? Gosh. Do you want to think about it? And I'll tell you mine. Yeah, tell me yours and I'll have a thing. Because I've had a few. Because I've been a teacher. Yeah. Oh. Yeah, fair call. Well, mine actually relates back to when I was in grade 6 at school.

2:58 Oh, yeah. And I can't remember what the limit was. It was a little while ago, but I got given and I still remember the the kid who gave it to me. Paul Hotel soaps. Oh, were they like the Rose ones, the little rose ones or? No, No, they were. Wrapped and they were wrapped with the hotel. They were legit, legit hotel soaps. Yeah. So he'd pinched them out of some hotel, he'd say. That's what he gave me for my game. That's pretty bad. It's bad, but I mean look, the kids thought you know, like, I mean I've been given some pretty shit gifts over the time and not necessarily KK ones.

3:38 Go tell me you know my worst one. Oh, yeah, I know your worst one. Yeah, you've got to tell the people. Oh, should I? Oh yeah. OK, 40th birthday present like you know, So should be a decent present for a 40th you'd think. Well, what one would think. You'd think, yeah, yeah, I've got an electric toothbrush from someone who was very close to me at the chat. Right? Name. Names. Oh, yeah. It's just like, oh, Meg. Yep, Yep. First thought, and I like toothbrush, yeah, and a pair. And a pair of socks. Yeah, but.

4:09 They were fluffy. Fluffy socks? No, they were just regular socks. I. Thought they were like. Home socks, you know, new, new, new oh. So it was like K. Mart you know, crew socks like. Yeah, right, Right. Yeah, That's pretty bad. That's pretty, pretty bad. Yeah, maybe I may have been married to the person. Yeah, maybe. Maybe. Yeah, things happen for a reason. My husband, the worst thing he's ever given me. I'm just trying to think he's pretty good, but I'm also very good at dropping hints slash links to what I need or one.

4:45 I love it. What's the worst? I think he's given me some. I have gotten a few like Marge bowling ball gifts. You know how you know in the seasons where Homer gifts Marge for bowling? Ball, I love that. And then she almost has an affair. Doesn't. Yeah. I have received a few of those, like, you know, tickets to things that maybe wouldn't be up my alley necessarily. Yeah. But nothing like an electric toothbrush that takes the cake. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Oh, it's the thought that counts. Not in that instance.

5:17 No, I don't think there's any way of digging yourself out of that one, is there? It's. Not Oh, what about is it? Let's make it even better, it did get taken back and returned, so then I actually didn't get anything. Yeah, that's worse. Yeah, that's worse. Yeah. Yep. What about as a teacher? Look, the coffee mug situation was getting bad that like I did have to do a massive, you know, exodus of those out of my cupboard because I end up with just odd coffee cups. I wanted. I was like this big thing of being an adult almost of going.

5:47 I want a set of four that match. Literally said that to me last year. Do you remember? You were like, I think it was during the Boxing Day sales. Yeah. All. I wanna get matching coffee cups for my new house. Yeah. And I was like, yeah, that I get that because we're the same. We've got heaps of mismatched ones and neither of us are teachers, but you just sort of accumulate bits and pieces along the way. And look, I'm all for a bit of mismatch, but like matched in some way, like kind of coffee mugs.

6:10 I actually find that really cool. But these, I was talking like random. Yeah. Random, random like. So it was really, yeah. Needed a change. Plenty of candles, which I know you love a candle. I love a candle, but these are cheap ass candles. Yeah. You know which. I mean a quality can. And look, as a teacher, honest to God, anyone looking for teacher gifts, the best gift you can give a teacher is the card with the note written in it thanking them genuinely for what they do. The gift itself I really did not need.

6:36 I call, I call bullshit. On that, no I'm 100%. I used to start and cry over the cards. OK, I mean, that is lovely. It's all heart warming and whatever. Great, great, great. But I'm trying to think of things to get for kids teachers for Christmas. You really have to get them something. Get a bottle of wine. But what if they don't drink Like I feel like one of. Our sorry, are they a teacher or I'm just. Not sure. Like, I don't know that either of my kids teachers drink, actually. Yeah, OK. That's which is more of a thing these days.

7:05 Probably when I was teaching a teacher drank, whereas now I think there's a lot more people that are alcohol free, which is great. Good on them. Like I love that. Good for you. But yeah. How do you cope through the day then? So, and both of my kids, I said, what do you want to get your teachers for Christmas this year? Yeah. And they both had different ideas and they were both very thoughtful. Like I thought they really thought about the person. And yes, yeah, So I've just gone down that path, but.

7:28 Yeah, I'm usually my youngest has nailed it for his teacher, I think, and it's so simple and easy which. I like where you are. You gonna reveal? It might not. She's into AFL football. She actually works part time for an AFL footy team, as we know, but so he wanted to get her earrings 'cause she loves wearing special different earrings on like on a Friday. Apparently she wears egg and bacon earrings. She listens to this podcast occasionally so she might hear me talking about this. Apparently she has egg and bacon earrings on like each on each year on a Friday because she has eggs and bacon for breakfast on a Friday.

7:57 I'm. Not told if this is true. Because I like if Brody's noticed this or she's talked about it. I love it. That's so cute. So he's telling me all about this and how she likes chaining up her earrings. And so, yeah, then we put the two together and he's found these pair of earrings that are like little AFL footballs. Oh, well, that is really thoughtful. I love that. So that is. Nailed it. But yeah, bro Mason hasn't. Can't bring me anything this year, unfortunately. I'm going to have to work that one out myself.

8:20 Oliver's all over it with his teacher, and Lucas had a really nice idea for his as well. And we've, I've just supplemented it with something else because, you know, it wasn't quite, you know, it was, it was thoughtful, but it wasn't, you know, enough anyway. So that's all done and ready to go. Yeah. Yeah, I can't believe we're at this stage of the the year already. That's insane, yeah. Crazy, crazy, crazy. So in light of this being our last episode for the year, we put out a a bit of a question on our social media.

8:56 What will once this is released will be a month or so ago. Yeah. And we asked people to give us suggestions for cases that they wanted us to cover. And we've decided based on suggestions. And thank you to everybody who's replied. We are covering Grace Mullane today. Yeah, actually it came from quite a few people. This one was mentioned. So yeah, I mean, this, it's a big one and a good one. When it got mentioned to me originally, I was like, oh, like, you know, yeah, I have watched that Netflix show, but like, you know, there's too much in that, you know?

9:27 But yeah, we've got into it more now and it's like, well, there's a lot to this. So I. Feel like every time we go, oh, is there much to it? We still can bang out an episode that's over an hour long. So yeah, it'll be fine. I'm sure it'll be fine. This. Surprisingly enough, I'd actually knew nothing about this case. Yeah, once I got into it. I remember now like hearing bits and pieces about it, but I didn't put it all together that. This was the one I don't remember hearing about this at the time at all, where it, so it wasn't until I think came out as a Netflix special that I knew anything about it.

9:57 But yeah, it's. Did you remember hearing about it when it happened? Yeah, 2018 that this occurred. Yeah, I did. I do remember. Yeah. And I just remember it being all about Tinder. Like, I feel like that was the focus of the media at the time. So I didn't then put together once you were telling me this story, that it was the same, same case. Same case, yeah. Right. Yeah. So it was an interesting one to to delve into. Yes, yeah, yeah. I mean, we can get into this probably a bit more as we talk about the case.

10:26 But like this whole Tinder thing is a bit I'm on offense of like, I guess it comes down a little bit the Ashley Madison one that we did recently too, of like the fact of how much is the app itself to blame for things, you know, and people sort of, you know, there's this stigma now around Tinder, you know, the Tinder swindler, The this is the guy who's kind of knows the Tinder killer in some ways, like. And so I mean, I don't use social. I don't use apps for dating or any never have dare say you have never no high school sweethearts.

10:56 Yeah. Yeah. So I don't have any experience in coming at it from that perspective. But all I know is that friends I know who've used them, I'm always like, like tell me where you are and make sure you're staying in touch and things. But. Also the types of things that then people experience after going on dates, after meeting these people. Like, yeah, same. I've got acquaintances and friends who I know who've used the apps and on the odd occasion it turns out really well. But yeah, then also there's many multiples of occasions beyond that, but it.

11:27 Seems to be Tinder is a bit like specifically what from what I'm getting like you know that Tinder seems to have something about it, which I think it's around the I know a lot was mentioned through this case that Tinder is a bit more around looks and that's something whereas other apps aren't built around that so much, I think. OK, so, but I don't know how much of like these these sorts of people who do the wrong thing to women, you know, meet people. And do you know, is it is it the app that's facilitating this to be more prevalent or is there just more people like this?

11:58 Who are A holes? Look, I think the A holes have always been out there. It's just been this is like. Gives them an Ave. to pursue things that they would have otherwise been able to do. But in answer to your question about like the responsibility of Tinder and the apps in these situations, after this, and this might be getting a little bit ahead of us here, but after this, this case took place, Tinder actually did release a statement. Right. Specifically about this case, yeah, right. And they said I've written it down because I was really interested that they almost took a little bit of responsibility.

12:31 They said that they were deeply saddened by Grace's death and they're looking into safety measures to ensure that things like this don't happen well. I mean, I don't know how you can, though. I don't because once someone meets up with someone like, yeah, I don't think that an app is responsible for that. And their whole Tinder's whole thing is that we allow you to meet people. What happens beyond there is not nothing to do with us, which is much fair, but that's what it's there for. Yeah. Yeah. And once you're meeting up in person, you're then consenting or in some terms we'll, we'll get into that a lot.

13:04 Definitely comes in, comes into this, yeah. But you're there of your own volition. Yeah, That's not got anything to do with Tinder, you know. I just feel like then like the the onus always falls on the female around safety. Yeah. And how as a society we can shift that. Yeah. I don't know. It's really, I mean, it's a bigger question than just I think today. And here are our podcast. Absolutely. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah, Should we get into? It let's get into. It OK Grace Emmy Rose Mullane was born on the 2nd of December in 1996.

13:36 She was born in the UK and it sounds like she came from a really lovely, very close knit family. I think she had mum and dad and two brothers. Is that right? Yeah, two older brothers that were from a previous marriage of her dad, I believe so. She was the only daughter of David and Gillian Mullane, but she was very much loved by her brothers and very close to them as well. So, yeah, very beautiful family, yeah. She decided to take a gap year. As you know, I think it's less of a thing in Australia to take a gap year, isn't it?

14:05 But a lot of a lot of people in Europe and the UK especially, will take a year between school and university or university and even starting work. Yeah. Which is what what Grace has done. Yes. So she graduated from the University of Lincoln and decided to take a gap year. She had left home like she was so young. Yeah, she's 20 years old. Well, I mean, well, in this she's, you'll find that she's reported it's either 21 or 22. Yeah. So depending on, unfortunately, when she passed away, Yeah, yeah.

14:37 She was 21 or 22, yeah. So she'd spent, was it 6 weeks or so in Argentina, in South America? Yeah, Peru she was in and she did all the, the Inca trail, all that sort of stuff. And with that group she was, she was with other people, yeah, touring, doing that area. So yeah, pretty awesome stuff, she was saying and. And then apparently she was sort of like looking for, you know, safe places for solo female travellers to travel around. And yeah, New Zealand was, you know, very high up on the list because New Zealand is a really safe country.

15:06 Yeah. Not to say they don't have crime, but it's, yeah, very safe country. And yeah, yeah. So she decided to head over to head over to New Zealand and she arrived there on the was it the 20th of November 19th? I thought no. Yeah, I think 20th of November in 2018, after her six weeks of of travelling around South America, she travelled around the upper North Island, so the Bay of Islands. Have you ever been there? No, I haven't done much of the. I've only done the South Island of New Zealand. I haven't done really much of the actually none of the North Island at all.

15:41 Yeah, I've. Only been to the north. Yeah, right. Stunning. Like we went back in the day. The laboratory that I work for opened up a branch over in Auckland. Yeah. And so a group of us went over there to help them sort of get going. And my God, it is such a beautiful, beautiful part of the. World S Island is stunning too, so I mean, it's incredible. New Zealand, no joke, I think must be one of the most spectacular places in the world. Yeah. I remember driving along and just kind of going, oh, my God, that is the most incredible thing I've ever seen.

16:11 And then you kept driving and turn around another corner and go, oh, wait, how do we top that? We just topped that. Like, yeah. They've got the most beautiful lakes and partner. Mountains and mountains. Arts. It is a stunning, stunning place. Yeah. So Grace was, you know, looking around and having a grand old time. She arrived on in Auckland, so in the capital city up there on the North Island on the 30th of November and she'd booked some further travel around the 2nd of December. So she I think she was going to travel to the.

16:41 South, yeah. Isn't that right? Yeah. I think she was planning on spending a few nights, you know, in Auckland itself before moving on to do other things. She was planning sort of a two week stay in total in New Zealand. So she had, you know, another another bit of travel to do from from Auckland. Yeah. So she was moving around pretty quickly. Really. Yeah. Yeah. Do you know where she was going after? No, I can't remember now. I think I do remember reading it, but I can't remember where it was now.

17:03 So she was more North Island she was still sticking to, although I know I think she had plans to head. South if she did, I think on the 2nd of December her plans were to head South. Yeah, I meant beyond New Zealand. Do you know where she? Well, I know that she was due back in the UK around June for a fact, like there was a family wedding. Yeah. So I believe she was planning on further things like probably Australia from there and potentially I guess some Southeast Asian countries maybe working way back up, I think to the UK from, from memory, Yeah.

17:30 Yeah, she was in constant contact with her family throughout her, you know, the six weeks in South America and then through to her travels around, around Auckland and the North Island of New Zealand. Yeah. So much so that she would have often really frequent, you know, texts back and forth. I mean, we're talking 2018, you know, social media. Easy. Yeah, if they if she was an. App you've got? Yeah, if everybody speak. To someone via text or phone call, there was something on on social media, so there was daily contact, an update of some sort to someone in the UK around what she was up to.

18:06 If not many, multiple times in a day, yeah. Have you looked at her Instagram? And yeah, I did. Post She's quite a talented artist too, so she actually had two different Instagram accounts. One was all of her artwork and one was her social sort of stuff. Yeah. A very intelligent artist. Incredible. Yeah, yeah. And even like her photography just, yeah, you know, the post that she puts up. I mean, we're probably the generation, you know, sort of before her. And some of our Instagram posts are a bit like, I look back on things that I've posted in the past and we're fucking.

18:36 How embarrassing. The filters used to put on it and. She it's so it's mortifying, but hers are so tasteful. She's so young. I'm like, Oh my God. But, yeah, that sort of speaks to, you know, where she placed value and where she was sort of, you know, happy to be putting her life out into to the ether and what a vibrant and incredible young woman. Yeah. I mean. So great courageous to go on her own and do these travels. You know, she obviously was someone who'd get along with people very easily because she'd mix in with everyone.

19:07 And from all accounts, on the 30th of November, she arrived in Auckland and was at a sustained a backpacker's name called the Bass Backpackers. And that night that she arrived, she was at the pub. There was AI think there was a pub on the roof at the backpackers and you know, and she'd mixed in with a few people from the backpackers and you know, which is all what backpacking places are all about. But, you know, I felt comfortable on her own to infiltrate, you know, other people and, you know, find out what their travels were and have a few drinks and stuff and get to know people.

19:32 So and, you know, talk about what they were going to do next and potentially go together or, or, you know, and that sort of thing or find other way, other ideas of things you could see. So she was really an outgoing social person, you know, obviously just an easy to get along with. So. Yeah. Yeah. Lovely. Lovely, absolutely lovely. Her family became suspicious like so as we were saying, they've had so much contact with her, whether it be direct or indirect through social media over the what, what was almost what, 8 weeks of her travels to that point.

20:03 And they became incredibly suspicious because it was actually her birthday on the 1st of December, 2nd of December. Sorry. And she was turning 22, so they'd been sending messages to say happy birthday, tried calling her, and they had no response, which was highly, highly unusual. Yeah. So much so that they immediately reported her. Well, I think on the 5th of December her family reported her missing. Yeah, officially with the police. OK, yeah, so they were trying to figure out though people right from the get go.

20:38 Yeah, people she'd made contact with and they were looking through her social media to be like, oh, I wonder if we can sort of figure out who that person is and say, oh, have you seen Grace around? How awful would it be to be half a world away from your child? Yeah. And not know what's going on with them. Yeah, it. Would be absolutely horrible. Yeah, can't even imagine it. So, you know, they, they've done their very best on their own to try and figure out what what was going on. But as you said, they've reported her missing to the police and I believe did her dad immediately come over?

21:09 He did. He immediately came over. So he arrived on, I want to say it was the 6th of the 7th, sorry, 7th. He arrived on the 7th because on the 7th he gave a press conference. Yeah. So, yeah, So basically, yeah. So she was staying at these backpackers and on so a couple of days after. So the last contact they'd had with her was I think the morning of the second is that. Right. So no, no. No, sorry, the. 1st no. So on the night of the first, her last contact was to a friend to and it was during the evening for her in New Zealand and you can actually see it on CCTV when she sends this message to a friend saying I'm on a date.

21:50 It's going really well and we're really clicking. I'll let you know tomorrow how it's gone. So that was sent at approximately around 8:30-ish her time in New Zealand to a friend back in the UK. And that's the no, the last known contact for to someone back home. Yeah. OK, so that was on the night of the 1st. OK, so that was the last known contact. So have her. Her family I'm I'm assuming have known this. I'd say once they're all sort of going sending messages to her about happy birthday and none of them are receiving responses that I think the connections are all being made between family and friends saying yeah, I haven't heard from a response either.

22:26 I haven't had a response once. Like that's sort of that snowballed pretty quickly that they were all finding out that they weren't getting a response. Yeah, yeah. And then a couple of days after this last contact, there's a really interesting Facebook post that at least interesting Facebook comment, a comment on a Facebook, or was it Instagram? One or the other doesn't really matter by a man. On the app it was. It was the name was Jesse Shane and the comment was beautiful, very radiant. On a photo, it was just a photo of of grace.

23:01 Yeah. And that comment was made. There was a bit of confusion at first that that comment had been made on the second, but it actually had done something funny in the app and but it was actually made. That comment was actually put on there on the 1st of December, so they worked that out eventually, but still that was the last comment or anything on her Facebook, me on social media and it was a male's name and someone that didn't link up to anything else on her social media. So that was another interesting little.

23:28 Tidbit And that was what the police kind of saw once she was reported missing and they started looking into what was going on and yeah, like, so they've, they've gone to the backpackers. Well what they're in Auckland. It is so heavily CCTV, it's blows my mind. So you can actually go onto YouTube and I think it was the New Zealand Herald have uploaded a full like it's like 50 minutes worth. It's not even all of it by any means. There's a whole lot more CCTV, but you can actually map out the timeline on there pretty clearly in this 50 minutes of CCTV of what goes on over a course a few days.

24:01 What blows my mind is that you you track them and you can see on CCTV they're walking down this road and then it cuts to the next CCTV and it's there's. No cut though. You can see them like it's a continuous thing. It's unbearable. CCTV everywhere. And this guy like, I mean, this, it did not, it did not help this guy's case whatsoever because it's all very mapped out. But what? So what they did was they went to the CCTV and went right, we know she's staying at base backpackers and they found her exiting base pack Packers on the CCTV and were then able to track her.

24:32 So they have a have really huge team on this real quick, their New Zealand police officers which all credit to them, they did an amazing job on this. Very much so the CCTV, they tracked her from there to then meeting when she walked out of the backpackers to this place called Sky City where they you see her standing in this area. Let's talk about this. Yeah, this got me good. So in the footage, please go and have a look at it. Yeah, you can see him. So he's gone and had a beer at a pub beforehand or.

25:00 So they, yeah, they went back and then tracked him and you can see where he's. So she lived her backpackers, like I think it was like 543, something like that. And she's gone, as you said, walked over to Sky City, which is where they said they were going to meet previous to this. He's gone to some pub just down the road. I think he's done like 3 pints or something, like a huge amount of beer in a really, really short amount of time. Yeah. And the CCTV tracks him coming out of that pub and walking up the road.

25:26 Then it cuts to a scene where you can see Grace standing, waiting for him. And then he walks up and it's like he sees her. And then he does like, A36 double backs. Do I do I want to go there? And he literally walks around in a circle. And then she's obviously seen him. So he's kind of trapped in a way, like, as in not not trapped, but he's been caught. Yeah. It's. I'm like, did he look at her and go, oh, Nah. Well, I mean, I don't think you would because she's, I mean, stunning, very attractive girl.

25:58 But I don't know, I've watched, I've watched that multiple times myself kind of going, what's going on there? What's I doing? My only thing is that he's like oh she's not what I expected. I'm fucking off. I mean because he only he had. Wish, we wish. And they say, I really feel like that's a moment in time where it's like that sliding door moment of like, if only he just did turn around. But then that doesn't track with his previous records because he's a, you know, a prolific Tinder user. Might as well find out.

26:26 But he he isn't someone who would have walked away. I don't think so. I don't know whether it was or am I ready? Like as in am I? Am I if I got my game face on? Yeah, that's how I kind of ended up taking it of like, oh, she is. Maybe I actually took it as shit. She looks like her pictures. She's as good as I thought. Well, am I? Am I if I switched on the right charismatic personality yet? You know, I almost feel like it's that I don't know, it's him. Recalibrate. It's like he, it's like he's like psyching himself up for.

26:56 It yeah, I'm getting his I'm in here. Oh, this is a good one. Like I don't. Know, I just really totally different interpretation. No, I I switched between the two, but my watching it repeatedly and knowing then what I know of him. Yeah, that was where where I got to with it that it's like, no, it's him going, oh, is this is too good to be true. Almost like OK. And I really honestly think that that was more of like I'm going in, but like, oh God, am I ready? Like, yeah. OK, so then they go up and they have like a little bit of an awkward hug, as you do when you're meeting someone you don't know and you're obviously on a date.

27:30 But it's weird, I'm sure. It's weird that initial, like, you know, watching them on the CC, it's like so typical of two people meeting for the first time of like, you know, like awkward. But like, yeah, OK, I'm, I'm attracted, you know, but this is awkward now. Yeah, yeah, but they seem to chat the whole time as they walk along and yeah, so they head. Inside into Sky City at 2:00 and they go up to Andy Burger Bar, Yeah. And you can see, again, CCTV footage of them arriving at the bar, having a look at a menu, ordering some drinks and trying to find somewhere to have a seat.

28:02 Yeah. Let me just get the timings of this. So they've. That was this was all happened at around 6:00 PM Yeah. Then at 7:16, they leave Andy's Burger Bar and head over to a Mexican bar. Yeah. And they order two pictures of Margarita and one picture of a sangria. So that's quite a bit of alcohol. Yeah. And they drank those three massive, you know, jugs of drinks. Yeah. In an hour and 15 minutes. Yeah, yeah. I mean, they they were Downing some drinks like, but I mean, I'm yeah, we can get to his drinking habits and her.

28:38 So you can again see CCTV footage of them at the bar buying these drinks. Yeah, he's paying for everything. Yeah, it looks that way. He's paying and. Oh, definitely, and. He's making a show of it. He's yes, showing things around. He's yeah, like getting, like making even the way he gets his wallet out of his pocket. He, like, makes a show of it 'cause he's a hero. At 8:30 PM, they decide to go to the Bluestone Room, which is a bar close by. Yeah, It's actually close to the hotel that he lives at.

29:09 Yeah. So he's told Grace that he lives at this hotel. It's called City Life Hotel. Did you Google it? Yeah. It's not the nicest of a hotel, no. The room's pretty ordinary and yeah, it's like, pretty. Dingy looking and like it's not, he would imagine, a fancy. Not something you'd imagine someone who's told Grace his date that he is an oil manager. Offshore oil manager. Whatever that is. I mean, is he implying that he by the way? Not true, no. Is he implying that he manages oil rigs or something? Yeah, I think so.

29:48 I think, I don't really know what he thinks he's telling me, but. I just think, I mean, he came up with lots of different things we now know as the trials and stuff went on and I'm getting ahead of myself, but we'll talk about. We'll get into that string of. Lives. Yeah. All of his jobs that he's had. Yes. Yeah. So it's at around this time, as you said that that Grace texts her friend and exactly what you said things are going really well and yeah, you know, but yeah, there's a bit of a spark there but Oh my God, the CCTV footage of them inside this bluestone room.

30:21 Yes. My my. Yeah, that's and like for the police, it definitely gave them a a red flag immediately when they because they went and watched everything, every little detail. But yeah, what he, how he behaves there when I'm behind Grace's back is interesting. Even the way he kisses her. So they're at a point now where they're, they're obviously quite inebriated. I don't know the proportion of which drinks everyone's had, but I'm guessing they're both, you know, drinking a substantial amount of alcohol.

30:50 The way he kisses her on those CCTV, foot in on the CCTV footage in the Bluestone room, he basically like grabs her neck and like pulls her to. Yeah. It's predatory. It is, yeah, I, I watching it is really uncomfortable and I think a lot of that is because you know what, you know what's to come. But also just looking at it kind of going, I don't know from a first date perspective, he was and looks different people like different things let's you know, but he he seems quite forceful and. Yeah. I mean, she's going in as in like it's not like she's trying.

31:23 No, she's from IT or anything like that. She's obviously a willing participant. At that point at. That point at some point during the night, she after this she goes off to the toilet. What does he do? Oh, that's awful. Yeah. So she she stands up and goes to the toilet. He first of all, he goes to the toilet and comes back. They'll kind of doing a bit of a, you know, like you get on old table, you know, hold the table. Yeah, because if you get up and move, both of you, you lost your table and you know that drinks are there on the table.

31:47 But then she it's her turn. She gets up to go to the toilet. He immediately grabs her handbag and rummages through it and then puts it back on her seat and then grabs her drink and downs a Heba drink out of her bottle and puts that back on the table before she comes back from the bathroom. So bizarre. It's really weird. What is he looking for in her bag? This is it. Like what was he? Doing like What can you find in a woman's bag? Oh God, you want a tampon, mate? Yeah. Like seriously, what was he gonna like?

32:14 Was there, was he looking? Like what was he looking? For I don't know he's, but he's an odd carrier. Oh, he's the oddest of all characters, yes.

32:25 So yeah, the CCTV footage is. Very interesting. Yeah. So at 9:40 PM, so they've been at this bar for about an hour. Yeah. And they head back to his hotel, which is, I think, is it next door. It's not really hard because I was definitely walking because yeah, you watch them on the CCTV at least one St. Sort of down they walk and it's look, they're walking quite wobbly, like, you know, they've had many drinks. And so they and you see them enter into city life hotels and head up in the elevator. You see them both.

32:54 Walk both walk into the elevator and they press the buttons, but you can see him putting his card like back into his wallet, you know, because you've got to swipe your card on the elevator, you know, you've got to be a resident to be able to get the elevator to go up kind of thing. He does that, puts it back in his card. He can see him like swaying as he's putting his card back in his wallet. So it's very clear, inebriated and both of them. But yeah, they head up to the room, but unfortunately that CCTV footage is the last we see of Grace when and there is CCTV on the staircase as well as the elevator, but you don't see any of that because she's not there.

33:28 There's there is no footage of her exiting that building that we see her as a person walking or leaving that building. That's the last we see her really. So the next day obviously is oh, sorry. No, I was gonna say what we know from then, what the police have gathered, should we get to that. Oh, let's let's wait one second. I'm just gonna like just sort of that double back a little bit. OK. So, so obviously, as we said, so that's where the CCTV footage sort of ends for us in terms of like with that's the last we see of Grace.

34:03 So then it's the path, of course, of course. Is that the second of 2nd of December is her birthday. You know, messages, you know, messages are coming back from her. Her the family get worried. Her dad gets on a flight and on the 5th they they report her missing. So basically the police are now also who is she? Where have we got, where are we at on the 6th of December? The police have tracked this Jessie down that actually they found him on the 5th, contacted him on the 5th and said we need to have a chat.

34:35 He was like, I can't right now, I'm at work, but tomorrow morning I'll come in and have an interview. So he was very willing to do that at that time. So he came, went in for an interview on the 6th. So basically this interview that he does on the 6th is very interesting. So I don't know whether we want to go to hear about who Jesse is before we hear about his interviews. Yeah, how how about we do that? Yeah. So that that gives a little context. Yeah, I think we need to sort of explain who Jesse Kempson, Jesse Shane Kempson is.

35:06 So obviously this is someone she's met on a dating app, so she doesn't know any of this about him. So let's just keep that real clear that Grace has met up with someone who she knows nothing about. But we know this about him when we meet him basically. So Jesse Kempson was born on the 28th of December 1991. So it was approximately about 27 years of age at this time. But he's a very interesting background. So nine years of age, his parents separated and his mum and younger brother at that point moved to Australia.

35:36 So he's left in New Zealand and he is raised by his grandfather for a short period of time and then his father as well. You know, his father from reports seems to have been maybe somewhat violent or aggressive. I'm around Jesse. So he's experienced a lot of that sort of in his life, but also a lot of rejection then from his mum who's moved overseas. I think that puts an interesting context onto things like why, why a mum would leave one son in one country and move to the other. What would motivate someone to do that?

36:08 I just. Query, you and I both have two boys. I could not. No, I could not at all. But just makes me question a lot of things. Was she, was she exiting the violent and, and you know, relationship and she had no choice in that? And then in in saying no choice, did she see traits in Jessie that she wasn't able to cope with? And it was easier in a lot of ways to leave him where he was in New Zealand. I don't know. I don't want to judge at all in that because I just feel like there's a whole lot to that situation that we don't know.

36:43 Yep. But same. I feel like there's something there that as a mother, you kind of go, there's something here that doesn't make sense as to leaving one child behind if. She was seeing things in Jesse that were sort of meaning that he was heading down the path of the dad. Wouldn't you want to remove him from that situation? And or is it too far gone or I don't know, you know, I mean. As you said, we can't judge some somebody. We're not in her shoes. No, it just, it's an interesting circumstance, I think.

37:14 So that rejection from his mother, the violence from his father, maybe there's AI mean we've already alluded to the fact that he's lying is just absolutely prolific, you know, And is that some sort of escapism for him, you know, to create this life that he would have liked to have had that he didn't get to get to have as a as a child? I mean, interesting. But so in 20/20/2013, he actually did leave New Zealand and went to Australia. He did try to reconnect with his mum and brother in Australia when he was here, but that didn't happen.

37:44 So that again is interesting. What happens. Yeah, it's further rejection, which is really sad for him, but I'm. I'm just really curious as to why. Agreed. Yeah. But basically the his move from New Zealand to Australia time was under some simmering tensions back in a New Zealand with family. So there was lots of lying going on and stealing that his family were really sick and tired of. So he was in Australia for three years. He had some interesting interactions here with people. There's been some interviews around housemates and stuff that people he worked with a lot of stories.

38:24 There was one particular story I heard around where the housemates had there were females and males living in this house. He had like the smallest bedroom and in the house because that's all he could afford. Yet he was telling everyone that his family were restauranteurs and that they had millions and millions of dollars. And he was out there scoping the place to, you know, open their next restaurant and they're like, but wait, you can't even afford the rent that, you know, the lowest rent in the house you can't even afford.

38:46 But it actually got worse than that. They were finding that when he was drinking, when he drank alcohol, he became very aggressive and to the point where the females in the house began to take knives from the kitchen into their bedrooms and sleep with them under their pillows because they felt that uncomfortable. There was one particular incident in one share house that the other she let the other housemate housemates know of this, whatever this incident was that night. And they were all banded together and kind of went, we have to get him out.

39:15 Like he can't live here, that's not OK, you can't feel like that. They'll come to in contact with the landlord about it and everything. And so they planned the next morning as a group to go to him and say you need to move out. He must have got wind of that or had some sort of inkling it was going to happen. And all of a sudden he was like, my mom died, I'm leaving, I have to go to the funeral and stuff. So he left. So whilst he was out of the house doing whatever he's doing with this funeral, which his mom didn't die, apparently as far as we were, it was a lie as well.

39:42 Yes, prize, prize that he, they then all, they basically, they evicted him at that point and they basically said, yeah, that's it, you're not coming back. However, after that happened and he had officially moved out and was no longer in the house, they would often find that they would smell his aftershave near windows. It's so fucking creepy. I remember just, this is a total tangent, but I remember Narelle Fraser, who's one of our favorite Victorian detectives. I was listening to a podcast that she was, so it wasn't her podcast.

40:18 She was being interviewed for another podcast and she was talking about when she worked in sex crimes and she said, you have no idea how many times I have gone to the scene of a crime. Like, it might be Nick is missing from her from a clothesline on. Yeah, like repeated things. And I'll go and do a walk around the house and I'll find tissues with semen in them at a window. And I think that's kind of what was going on in this. Situation. I thought you were gonna say she'd smell the lynx spray.

40:48 Oh my God, my, my eldest has just discovered his body spray and I I was just saying to Meg like his bedroom smells like a bloody French whorehouse or something like it. It's like he he could not spray more of that stuff on himself. But anyway. Yeah, sounds like this guy. Totally. Yeah. So, you know, these fucking creeps, that's what they do. Yeah. They come and they peep in like peeping, peeping Toms. Like, literally, yeah. And they're looking through windows and like, masturbating outside. Oh, you just the way that Narelle was talking about this, it was like, wasn't that uncommon?

41:23 Standard. Oh God. It's typical behaviour of. And then obviously these are behaviours that then tend to escalate if they're not got caught and intervened with early. Yeah, yeah. So just if the lying that he did like it got it was so out of hand. So at least some of the lies that he would tell were that he was an oil company manager, he was a cousin of a prominent all black, that he had gang connections. Another one was that he was in he was an ex gang member and now he was a had flipped to a be an informant to the police.

41:54 Another one was that all of his friends were police officers and also that he had had cancer. Yes. So the lies were everywhere. There was the tangle that he had absolutely created for himself. I don't know how he could keep track of it all. I don't think he did. He did. People caught on to him. Very. Quickly he was like. Clever enough. Night wasn't smart enough to actually tie them all up or anything. People were on to him. Yep. So yeah, some people up there who have lived with him called it, said things like that.

42:20 He was very chatty and he was reasonably easy to live with to begin with. But usually the pattern was that from after that point, the alcohol consumption would increase and then he would become aggressive and that quickly things would not make sense in terms of his explanations for stuff, right. Yeah. So upon his return to New Zealand, then after his stay in in in Australia, he actually sent put a message on Facebook. And this only, it's a message only went to like his in his his family and friends, not to the extensive.

42:49 List of public. Wasn't public to anyone else, but the message that he put on Facebook on his return to New Zealand was. Hey everyone, I just wanted to touch base with you all. I've made a lot of bad decisions in my life so far that I'm not proud of. Sorry there's no punctuation in this so I'm just gonna just please bear with me. Sorry I'm not proud of some, some of which have greatly affected others. I firstly want to extend the most sincere apologies for this. I've done a lot of reflection over time and have narrowed down the cause of all at all.

43:17 And with that being said, I believe you all deserve to know my clear arrogance and selfishness has truly affected the relationship I have with people in my personal life. I know that I was growing up emotionally, mentally. When we grow up, we make mistakes. That's how we improve in the exam of life. You can't retest yourself with the same question paper. But with that being said, we can change how we treat each other and over time we've learnt. I've learnt that every every action has a reaction but people I've recently been oh sorry but I've also learnt how much compassion we all have as people.

43:52 I've recently been diagnosed with severe anxiety and currently take me take medication to keep this under control. That's actually not a lie. He had been diagnosed with anxiety and was taking medication. Putting all that aside, I just want anyone who I've hurt slash, let down to know I'm truly sorry from the bottom of my heart. I think he knows. He knows what to say, but then the actions don't necessarily back that. That's the thing, yeah. Like he's, he's posted that. I've heard it was a written interview where I think it was his cousin.

44:31 I think yeah it was. It was somehow related but a similar age to him was like, well it was all bullshit because he just went back to his old ways as soon as he came back. Like it's not like he was on the path to salvation and changed anything. No, Yeah, but he he knew that he needed people. Yeah, he like. So, you know, how can I manipulate them? Yeah. To get what I want. Yeah. I'll, I'll, I'll say an apology. Say and. Yeah, but the actions don't back, do you know? Why he was living at the hotel.

45:00 Not really. No, I I don't either. I was like what I wanted to know was and I couldn't find it anywhere. Why are you living in a hotel mate? I mean I know it was a shitty hotel and it was probably not that expensive, but was it because he couldn't keep a house keep? AI think the house situation going. I think he realized that that wasn't working for him using share housing and so he had to live on his own and the only way he could do that was by. I know he told one of his Tinder dates that he was living in the hotel because he was this offshore oil manager and he was coming and going and.

45:33 Maybe it was just part of that whole idea that he could kind of. Conjure. Look like that, that's what's going on. He I know that he'd only just been recently let go from a job that's in the area. So, you know, he probably moved in the area for this job that he did have, but they let him go pretty quick cuz thing he was doing some pretty dodgy stuff there. Things he was what is he doing? He's making phone calls. He was meant to make so many phone calls, but he was actually calling himself and it was all fraudulent what he was doing within his job that they said, Nah, you're out, see you later.

46:03 Yeah. So that and that had happened I think maybe a week or two prior to meeting. Two weeks before meeting Grace. Yeah. Was terminated. Yeah. So basically that gives you the picture of this person who the police are now going to interview in relation to. This is the last known person to have seen Grace according to their CCTV and the interaction on Facebook. So they bring him in on the 6th of December to interview him and he tells them a story of the meeting up and having a great date. And then but about 8:00 PM they separated and went their own ways.

46:35 He, he reckoned that he went and then had more drinks at another bar until like ten, 11:00 at night and says that he was so intoxicated, doesn't remember anything else about the night. So that was the story he gave the police then. They knew a lot more than this already. Already they knew more so they pulled out, they basically sort of went, oh, thanks Matt, mate, just give me one more minute and I'll just because actually, they actually asked him for a DNA sample, which he agreed to give. But the guy, so the cop actually walks out of the room and then comes back and he goes, we can leave the DNA sample for now.

47:08 We'll come back to that. Just we don't need to worry about now, which I think was making him feel like I've got him, like they're feeling comfortable with me that they don't need that. Yep. So then because then what he does is he pulls out a photo, a CCTV image of him on this on the elevator at 8:00 AM on the 2nd of December with a suitcase and he's and the cop just sort of shows it to him and says he says really not much at all. He let leaves this open air. He doesn't. Have a lot in this interview.

47:37 Yeah, I love it when cops do it. Yeah, I'm no good at it. I can't have quiet. Well, I've got questions and I need to know blah blah blah blah blah. Yeah, cops are very good at this. And so he just puts the photo there and he's like, tell me about this. And then there's just silence. And you can just see Jesse in this. What I mean again, this is you, you can actually see these interrogations and things. So you can see his body language body language changes. Like, he kind of tenses and sort of sits up.

48:03 He puts his hands between his legs. It's like he's trying to, like, hold on to something. Yeah. And then he also, like, he's taking drinks of water. He's like, you can just tell. He's so uneasy. Yeah. Yeah. So basically he says, oh, I've got it a bit mixed up. Yeah. I must have got up earlier than I thought, you know, that he'd said that he was, he got up at 10:00 AM or something. And so then this, he explains the the suitcase and says that he bought the suitcase because he was going to have to move out of where he was living, which, OK, yeah.

48:29 But then he says, and but then he really is adamant around this. But I've still got that suitcase, if that's what you're implying, which the cop has implied nothing. He's just, he said nothing. I love this. And he's just digging his own grave here of like, you know, oh, I've still got that. If you can go and get it. It's in the it's in the room. It's in the room. I've still got that suitcase. So the the cop is very, very good at just, he keeps it very calm. He starts putting the pressure on and starts bringing out a couple more CCTV images.

48:55 It's just putting the cards on the table of like, we know more, more, more than one. And here's your opportunity to come forward at this point. So in New Zealand, they don't have the rule of being able to detain people 48 for 48 hours. They either have to arrest or let them go. So the cops decide they do let him go because they don't have enough to arrest him on. They want more information, they want to find more. They. Need more time that they need the time and it's they're gathering all this can you even imagine how difficult it would be the way that they've tracked them through the night that would take so much man it was a.

49:29 Huge, huge team to do that. Which, yeah. To put this all together, yeah. The other thing, oh, sorry, no, no go. The other thing that they were looking at was his like Google history and all of that kind of thing. So they also get a search warrant for his apartment. So obviously having the fact that his hotel room, the hotel room, sorry, I think this wasn't there were sort of apartments, not hotel rooms. Like I got the vibe. I think it was like a service department. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So they basically at this point, because there's not enough adding up, it gave them enough what he gave in that interview that they knew he was lying and they could prove he's lying.

50:03 So therefore they could get a warrant for his apartment. It was for the hotel room. So that gave them enough to do all that. So they let him go, but knowing that they can be able to search his, search the room and all these sorts of things, which gave them the time to do that. So that gave them more time to look into more CCTV footage as well and get all their evidence and all their ducks in a row. That's right. So what? They discovered is that so they obviously had access to his devices and phone records and they discovered that at 1:29 AM on the 2nd of December, he has Googled hottest fire and Wautakare ranges.

50:40 OK. So keep that yeah in your mind. And a lot of other things we'll get into. It well that comes in, Yeah. At 1:40 AM he watches 8 clips of hardcore pornography. Six hours later he googles. So this is about 7:00 7/30 he googles car hire, duffel bags with wheels, rigor mortis, large suitcases, industrial strength cleaner. And this is my favorite flesh eating birds. Yeah, just checking if there's any vultures in the area. I just might just see if that can maybe assist me. Yep dude. Mm hmm Yep dude.

51:22 So what the absolute. What the actual fuck? They also obviously with the search of the apartment, so I guess we can actually go back a little bit here to the CCTV footage, what else they found on that CCTV footage, which will then highlight what they actually found in the apartment as well. So basically he said that they separated at 8:00 PM and went their own ways on the CCTV footage. It is very clear that's that they don't do that. That's when they went on to the second bar or third bar, sorry.

51:51 Yep, 3rd and the Bluestone. They end up, as we said, got back to their apartment at 9:40 and see her go up into the room. That's all. We've seen all that. The following day, though, at 8:00 AM, he does. He gets up and he goes into the lift and goes downstairs, goes to the atrium and purchases a large suitcase. There's so much movement here. I'm like, sorry mate, but can you please get your shit together and like do things all at once? He is in and out and in and out of that place. I don't know. What the fuck he's doing?

52:19 Oh, it just confuses the hell out of me. So he he gets back to the the apartment with the suitcase, then goes out again, goes to Woolies, buys a heap of cleaning products, just cleaning products, goes back to the apartment, hide it. And The thing is, the Woolies, he does self checkout. Yeah, you can see this. It's like literally, you know, on top of his CCTV you can see literally every. Every item that he purchased, yeah, their CCTV footage is so clear, so good. Yeah. At 10:25 he goes and rents a car.

52:48 And again in the cab. Clear shot of him in the cab. And he's stressing in that cab. I don't know about that. I just see, I see on his. Face and he's like and like he's like shifting in his chair, I. See him as being quite. Yeah, Yep, this is what I'm doing. Like I don't see panic at all. Oh no. Panic. No, no panic. I agree with that. But he's like, I feel like he's not agitated. He's yeah, maybe agitated. He's wanting to get. Yeah. Yeah, I agree that he's not panicked. Yep. So yeah, so he goes and rents this red car from Apex Rentals, brings that back to the apartment.

53:24 At 2:53 PM he leaves again and heads to Revelry Bar. So and at this bar he meets a Tinder date.

53:35 So that has a date with another Tinder woman, thank goodness. And we can get into her story when we get to the trial and stuff. But she did not feel comfortable around him. And you can see on the CCTV footage as they walk out, they go in opposite directions. Now apparently she, her car was parked in the same direction as he was walking, but she was like, Oh no, my car's this way. And walked the opposite direction of what he was because she was like, no, no, no, not going to partake in that. So thank.

53:58 I mean, good luck, good to her. I mean, well done. Because it could have been, you know, well, I don't know. Could he have taken her back to his apartment like with bodies still in there in the room? No, but she describes him as like she said, he was very odd. She was really creeped out by him. Oh, he talked about really weird stuff on the day. Really weird shit, like he talked about how he's friends with all these cops and that the cops are really concerned about finding all these dead bodies in the white Taka forest.

54:24 Because the dogs can only sniff dead the body 4 feet underground, so if you bury it a lot more than that then you then they don't get found. Turns out that's not true. No, that's not true. Police dogs are so that's their sense of smell is so sensitive that is not even supposed to being true. You brought up rough sex with. Yes, and talking, talking about it, Yeah. And then weirdly, she brought up a topic of some guy who'd just recently been done for murder. And he's reaction to that was oh isn't it awful how one guy can just do what?

54:52 Make one mistake and end up being in prison for life?

54:57 Fucking gross. He also admitted to this date. So she was a journalist? Yeah. Admitted to him that he'd been shopping for suitcases that morning and it was really hard to find one big enough for all his sports equipment. Yeah, so yeah, he was yuck. So that date only lasted about an hour and a half. So he gets back to the apartment at about 5:40 in the evening, exits again at the of the apartment at 712 and goes to a shopping complex again. He leaves again to go to Woolies and gets a cleaning machine.

55:30 Yeah, you know those like carpet carpet machines you can hire from Woolies? He goes and gets one of. Those, Yeah, goes to the apartment. He's only in the apartment for about half an hour. So you use this carpet cleaning machine for like half an hour, then takes it back to Woolies at about 9:00 at night. So flaws me. I mean, who cleans a service department? Like especially with a carpet cleaning machine, even for no reason for no like no reason. Like he's just getting into the elevator with this carpet cleaning machine.

55:57 No one thought to go, mate. What do you need that for? I don't know what I mean, you know, I guess you're not on your mind going. What is it? If it is more like a service department type thing then maybe there isn't someone like at a front desk or something to. Oh, there was no, no, there was a full lobby with people with. But was there someone like was it man? Yeah, Yeah, yeah. There's CC footage of that entirely that there's multiple people at the lobby there. And no one's yeah, OK, no, that's.

56:20 Weird. Yeah. So at 9:30 that night, you see him leaving his room with two suitcases on a luggage trolley. And he's pushing. Them one of the the one on the bottom is clearly very heavy. He's got then one sitting on top that kind of moves it's probably got nothing in it. I don't know, it was very nice. I. Think we know what's in what was in it now? Yeah, yeah, there's a couple of things where he dumps stuff, but yeah, I don't know about that. This particular bag, I feel like that was a bit more of a he was putting the decoy bag of like being on top.

56:49 I just, I don't know. Yeah, but you can very much see the bottom 1 is very heavy. Well. He he like kind of goes to like really hit like it's trying to get him to push it into the into the lift. Because what I found really gross was so he wheels this trolley with the suitcase out to the car and he's, so he loads this, the suitcase and this is all on CCTV, loads it into the back of the car. And you see people walking down the street and they look, they don't know what's going on. But how awful would you feel if you like you can see people you've got, Oh my God, that's me.

57:20 And that was happening as you're walking down the street. So, you know, he unloads this, this trolley, puts the suitcase into the back of the car, wheels the trolley back into the lobby. And as he's like walking into the lobby, he flags like, and talks to the guy behind the counter in the lobby of like, Oh yeah, couldn't get the trolley around. Like, you know, struggled with trying to manage the the trolley adjust. He's just awful. He's so there was no element of him doing the whole like, oh, I hope no one saw me do that.

57:48 Like, you know, like he not at all. He was even bringing. Attention to himself having a conversation. With someone at Brown, the trolley being so heavy or whatever or you know, hard to manoeuvre blows me up way God horrible. So anyway, the next morning, so that obviously flows it in the next morning on December 3rd at 6:50 AM, he leaves city life again and in the in the car drives to a hardware store. He purchases a red shovel as well as 5 bolts. Yeah, they they were the decoy and he seemed at the counter talking about this with the guy like coming.

58:21 Yeah, I don't know, to be the right size, like kind of stuff obviously. And whilst the this red shovel is sitting on the on the counter like is if you know, that's just my you know, extra bit of purchase. I'm actually really worried about the I'm here bolts like, you know, Yeah. So you then see him at a oh, sorry. He returns from there and he goes to, I think he drops off some things to the dry cleaners, a bag of things at the dry cleaners, a couple of things. He goes to a car wash because he when he returns to city life, sorry.

58:51 After that, he you see him get out of the car in the car park and walk through no shoes, pants are kind of hooked up a bit. And he walks back into the into his apartment with a bag, but yeah, no shoes on at all. So he gets dressed and you see him come back out again and that's when he goes to the dry cleaners and stuff. Yep. Then he goes to a car wash. Yep, at the car wash. You see? Which is about 11:20 in the morning. On the third you see him washing down the entire car. He pulls out the back a pair of shoes and hoses them off.

59:21 And you can clearly see on the CCTV how filthy these shoes are, how like he's trudged. Through so yeah, yeah. So then he. Drives out of the car wash, but then you see him come back into the Bay and leave the shovel, which that became a bit of an issue. They didn't because they they couldn't track that so well where he was. That took him a long time to find that shovel. But yeah, because he told them when they asked him about. The shovel, what did he, he said he'd left it because they were like, why did you buy a shovel?

59:50 And he was like, oh, I bought it for I can't remember where you said he'd left it, but he said he'd left it somewhere. And then they found they were able to track the rental car right, And they found the. That they there's it's so clear that he leaves it just in the corner of the of the bait the car wash. Yeah, yeah. So you know again, he's being deceptive. Yeah. So heads. Back to his apartment after all of that. Yeah. Then he obviously takes a bag from the apartment at about 3:20 in the afternoon and goes to this place called Albert Park and that he dumps heap stuff out of this bag into a rubbish bin in Albert Park.

1:00:28 The inference is that the bag basically. Contains some personal effects of graces, so her mobile phone and some other personal effects. No, not the mobile phone. So because they retrieve the. Stuff out of the the bin. They do actually get to that and they they get that the phone, they believe they still can't prove this because they've never found the phone. So on the 6th, on the morning of the sixth, he goes out again to a Bay somewhere and all they know is that he drove there in the morning, but they don't know why and they don't know what he did there, right.

1:01:00 But the phone has never been found. So there is an inference there that potentially that's where he got rid of the phone. I thought he put the phone in the bin. OK, I no. No, the phone hadn't been retrieved because. They were kind of, they would have really loved to have found the phone because they just, there was some interactions that he was talking about over the phone. That. Yeah. That because he told the police in his first interview that the following morning, 'cause he that he didn't see Grace that night, obviously after 8:00 PM.

1:01:25 And that he the next morning had texted her to on Tinder to try. He wanted to text her to see if they could catch up the next day. And they've been unmatched. So he couldn't. So he couldn't, Yeah. Which, yeah, it's such a Dick. So, yeah, let me see. We were up to they, oh, that's right, 2:20 in the afternoon on the CCTV, you can see the police arrive in the City Life foyer in the lobby there and they're talking to some of the managers and sort of asking about Jesse. And as they're sort of talking, they they sort of go, oh, that's Jesse there.

1:02:01 You can, he's just walking up, but Jesse on the CCTV, you can see him walking up towards the lobby and then he does the freak out 'cause he sees that there's cops inside and go. I'll suddenly turn around and starts walking off down the street and he walks very quickly then down the street to evade them. I think it's actually really funny the way he does that. Oh, oh, it's like so awkward. Yeah, yeah. And then he's room down the down the street. Yeah. So they run after him and try and like sort of to catch him.

1:02:27 Up, up with him there. But turns out they. Yeah. So that's on the 5th, sorry, of December that happened. So then the 6th, on this morning, the 6th, he agrees to come in to have the chat and the interview where he doesn't, you know, admit to anything and, and sort of, you know, but he's clearly lying. Yeah. So then again, on the 8th, after they've searched his apartment and done all those sorts of things and got all their evidence together, they bring him in for another chat. Yep. He brings a lawyer as he's entitled to do.

1:02:54 As he should do. Absolutely. And at this point, he does confess. However, his story is not. It doesn't align with a lot of things, but this is his confession of what? His version of events? His version of events. Is. That they consumed 25 drinks each, were very drunk. That they had consensual sex. That she was into like 50 Shades of. Grey. Sort of a bit of kink in that way. Yeah. And then so they had this rough sex, all very consensual and According to him. Yeah. And then after he, after they finished, he decided to go and have a shower.

1:03:33 And he says he walked into the bathroom and had a shower, but he fell asleep under the shower head, like while the shower was on. Yeah, seriously. Take showers to wake themselves up. Like but seriously, you're not fucking falling. Asleep in the shower with the shower on? Yeah, No, don't. Don't even What? An idiot. Anyway, he reckons he's then all really like, eventually he wakes up and he's all really groggy and he goes back into the bedroom and Grace isn't there, so he assumes that she's gone and this is his story, obviously.

1:04:03 And then he falls into bed because he's so drunk and falls asleep. When he wakes up in the morning, he sees Grace dead on the floor on the other side of the bed in a pool of a, in a pool of blood. There's blood on the floor, there's blood coming from her nose, He said. The police have also found some very interesting photos that were taken that night of Grace's genitalia and and of his and the timing of those are actually. So basically the sequence of events of his searches and those photos being taken on his phone that he searches, or I'm gonna butcher it, the white Tucker, white Tucker ranges.

1:04:42 He searches them first, Yep. And then he searches hottest fire. Yep. Then he takes the photos he knows. So the inference is he watches the porn. Sorry, porn first. Sorry. Yes, watch the porn. And then takes the photos. So the inference is from like the prosecution in this in the trial is that she was dead when he took those photos. They kind of know this too, in a way. Because he also says in his statement at this point, he says in his statement that Grace wanted all of the lights off. And so while they were having sex, she lighted in the dark.

1:05:16 And he'd turn the TV on at one point to give some ambient light. And she didn't even like that. But then the police look at these photos of her genitals, and it's fully lit up like the. It's the lights are on. Yeah. So that goes even further to the fact that she was deceased when these photos were taken. Yeah. And they literally just close up photos of her genitals. Oh, my God. Awful. I don't know if it's maybe. A good spot to put it, but the autopsy report, etcetera, it's it, there's actually no evidence of them ever actually having sex, No.

1:05:48 So just put that out there. Just yeah. Put that out there also, it's, I think it's worth noting at the minute too, that he has had, and we find this out during the trial that he has had many encounters with women that were horrific for those women. Yeah. And some of them actually did have injuries from penetration from him because he was so rough with them. So the thought is that had they actually had PNV sex, that there was potentially going to be some kind of like notable damage potentially to Grace.

1:06:26 But there was no sign that they'd had sex at all. There was no semen. There was no swelling or bruising or anything around that area. No, there was swelling and bruising, however, around her neck and bruising on her arms and the coroner basically said oh, there was sorry. There was also some bruising on her jaw and on her neck. The coroner concluded that she had been strangulated and asphyxiated and that it would have taken up to 5 minutes of really strong hold in order to kill her. The. Defence argued that against that and there and this shits me.

1:07:12 So they're argued this that that because she was intoxicated, it would have, it could have potentially been less time to do that. However the simple fact of the matter is she would have passed out first. As in, it takes time to strangle some strangle someone, whether it be a minute or 5 minutes. That is a long time to applying pressure somewhere and not noticing that this person isn't responding. There's time to go, oh, she's passed out, stop. And to be able to have her, you know, come good. Yep.

1:07:48 Before that, this is Jesse's. Thing isn't it is that. This was consensual. She was into, yeah, she was part of a member of the BDSM community and that she wanted this rough sex and play. The defenses case was that it was consensual and just in the act of this consensual rough sex that she had died by mistake. But the prosecution basically say that no one consent can consent to their own murder. So yes, she may have consented to some rough play, but at the point where she's passed out, she can no longer consent.

1:08:22 Like that's that's beyond that now not and yet you've still taken it to the point where. She's. Died. There's a moment with the in the. Trial where the defense attorney, Ian Brookie, he actually, you can actually see on his face and that though it's almost hard for him to even get these words out of his mouth that I feel like a lot of the defence was like that's what Jesse wanted the defence to be. And so they were implementing. Although however, the the if you watch at the trial, there so much of the defence is so problematic.

1:08:54 I felt I'll watching it, but there's a moment where he says in his, I think it's his opening argument basically is that he says Jesse did what she wanted him to do. And you can see him struggling to even really put those words out of his mouth because that is absolutely disgusting. It's bullshit. I have so many issues with the fact that this trial meant that her sexual preferences were put out in the public, when that, to be honest, has nothing to do with the fact that she's now dead. Oh, absolutely nothing.

1:09:32 There is nothing there that that that should not have ever been brought into trial. No, it's, it's irrelevant. It is. Absolutely relevant. No one asks to. Be strangled to death The. Justice in the case said that this isn't sex gone wrong. The person responsible must have known what they were doing and the defence sort of in response to that were basically said words along the lines of, you know, bad situations where people to do bad things. So it's not like Jesse's not bad. He was just in a bit of a bad situation.

1:10:04 So what could he do? Maybe call the fucking police or call an ambulance? Or maybe don't strangle your Tinder date to death in SO in his interview where he. Does confess and I put that inverted commas. He he says that he did attempt to dial I think it's 111 in New Zealand. Don't quote me, but he hung up because he panicked, right? Well, they weren't able to prove that he didn't. No, no, not at all. Which to me like it. Connects pretty quick you know kind of thing that they'd be able to track that so I don't think that ever happened, but that's what he said happy he did, but then he says he says about putting her body in the boot in the suitcase and stuff that he was just I was awful.

1:10:39 It was awful and he was like he's like fake crying at this point in the interview and he says I just couldn't stop thinking about what they what we had shared the night before. Oh fucking gross. Oh, it's. So disgusting like. I'm no, no, no, no, no, no. Yeah. And the other one, the other thing with the interview at that point, like so when they he finishes telling his story of his, his his idea of what happened. So he finishes telling that and you just hear from the side. His lawyer actually says, so did you intend to cause her death?

1:11:11 The cop never reacts to this questioning from the lawyer, like kind of thing. And Jesse does. He says, Oh no, no, no. Now the simple fact is in in New Zealand, the law is that you had to be able to be convicted of murder. It's got to be intent to kill. So his lawyer is trying to already plant that seed of there. There wasn't intention to kill, so therefore it's not murder. You'd be under a different and a lesser charge. There's nothing about this that's not murder. I can't even. So that's that already begins at that very early stage that his lawyer's planting that yeah, the other they so the.

1:11:51 Prosecution's case, they actually put together a whole list of extender dates and there was so much evidence that went towards this being a pattern of behavior for him. One most notably was, and he ended up, I'll talk about that in a second, but a month before he'd met Grace, he was on a date with a woman and they, I think they ended up back at, I don't know if it was her house or his apartment, apartment, I'm not actually sure, but they ended up back somewhere. And she decided during the course of this that I'm really sorry.

1:12:26 That's my dog in the background. He's getting more delivery. There's a delivery. Hey guys, it was black. Friday and so there's lots of deliveries. I'm very, very sorry for that. But he was, they were on a date and it got to the point where they've gone back to a house and they, she's decided in the course of that, that she no longer wants to engage in sex with him, even though that's kind of where it was going. You can withdraw your consent at literally any time. Consent is fluid. It is fluid. It is not black and.

1:12:56 White No. It is you. You have the right to do whatever you want, whenever you want in those spaces and. He has then. Restrained her, sat on her face with his bare bottom and all the other bits and the pinned her. Forearms down. She said it lasted for 30 seconds and it felt like an hour, 30 seconds would feel like that in like it is a. Long time to not be able to get breath. Yeah, but those asshole fucking defence lawyers when you watch that because I don't know if she's in the the courtroom, to be honest, when she I don't you can't tell you don't see her.

1:13:33 So I don't know whether it's some sort of link or whether she's in the room and but doesn't matter either way. The fucking defence lawyers and they're the way they speak to her is so disgusting. It should not have been allowed. No they they just destroy her in terms of like really they re victimize her 100%. They tell they keep saying I'll put it to you that you were never restrained that you wouldn't this never happened. How dare you. That's her statement. Like that's what she says happened. That's what happened.

1:14:00 Stop believing the victims. That's I mean, that's their job. At the end of the day. I. Don't. I don't agree with it. I don't agree with it at all. But they had to put that out there. I guess not. It's her. It's hard. I've got to have evidence as to why to say that. She's not like put it to her of like saying, oh, but we've got this actual evidence. Do the defense need evidence? No, but the. Prosecution need evidence the defense. Doesn't. And that's why this is such horseshit and why it's so unfair the rape someone on the stand like that don't want to.

1:14:27 Come forward then, do they Because as. You said they're being re victimized, they're being re traumatized by this and hats off to her for doing this in Grace's. Well, the fact of the matter is, this thing, this wouldn't. Have got maybe to where it got, I mean, the the police and everyone agrees, you know, at the end of all this that if it wasn't Grace, it would have been someone else. Unfortunately, yeah, because the simple fact is there is a pattern in his behaviors, but every single it escalates and this is what was happening.

1:14:51 With him, but every other woman who? Up to this point, there's a lot of women were on the stand at the trial and they were, and again, hats off to them for doing that. However, they never came forward before Grace because of this, because this is how you get treated as I'm the victim. Yeah. So they didn't come forward and say he, you know, held a knife to my throat. He, you know, he pinned me down. You know, he raped me. All these sorts of things never came out prior to Grace because why would you put yourself through all of that?

1:15:22 Because you're re victimizing you. You've got to go through it all over again and again in that disgusting courtroom of these men putting it to you that you are lying. So this, this particular victim, she. Also said like, she was paralyzed after this had happened. She, she and you would I, I can totally. Yeah. I mean, I've never been, thankfully never been in that situation. But she could. She was paralyzed, but she didn't know what to do. He's gone to the bathroom and then she's visibly very upset.

1:15:53 And she, he's come back out and he's like, I don't know what you're crying about. I've got cancer. Oh, that lying piece of shit. Again, obviously didn't have cancer. He's such a fucking piece of shit. Oh, he really, really is so. Basically, so obviously we've really discussed all the trial one there, which is great, but the jury only took five hours to deliberate at the end of the trial, again worth noting there were seven men and. Five women on the jury. And when I read that initially I was like, fuck, how's this gonna actually go?

1:16:22 Because I'm not saying all men, but, you know, is there a bit of a brotherhood going on? I'm like, there's seven men to five women. How's this actually going to play out? But thankfully, yeah. On the 22nd of November in 2019, he was felt found guilty of her murder. Yeah. Yeah. He received. A sentence. Of in February of 2020, of life in prison with 17 years non parole because of the women who came forward during this trial. He was actually then subsequently convicted of two further sex offences and given an extra 11 years non parole on his sentence.

1:17:02 So there was a separate trial that occurred with his ex. Girlfriend and the stuff that she then ended up taking him to court over were horrific. Her, her story is just absolutely awful. Horrible. So, yeah. That he held knives to her throat regularly threatened to kill her on a number of occasions, repeatedly raped her. Yeah, he was. She spoke about how aggressive he was and that the fact was her take on things of not. I mean, she knew Jesse ought to be honest, I think more than anybody did if you could know him.

1:17:33 And she knew his true being. That's right. And she came. Out and said that she believes. To her core, that what would have happened is that Grace would have said no and then he would have become violent and insisted. And this kind of speaks to like, he was intoxicated. His ex housemates have all said that when he was intoxicated, he became really aggressive. Yeah, it all just plays into the picture of what ended up happening when you look at the actual scene. So the cops, when they went in and saw the room, there's a lot that doesn't line up within his story of events because there are on the foot on the floor.

1:18:05 It was found they use that line Luminal and they've 2 pools of blood, but there's also blood splatter on the walls. Yes. So it's not as clear cut. I don't think of a strangulation. I think there would have been some sort of beatings as well, which I mean, I think he did talk about, you know, that there was a bit of hitting in that involved in the BDSM they were performing. But there's I think there's far more aggression, aggression in it than than playful. You know, in that sense. There was a lot of evidence to suggest there was a lot more to it.

1:18:33 So I think she might have thought, you know, and I think she that, you know, he might have at what his ex-girlfriend insinuates of being, you know, that she said no and then he's got aggressive is what happened. Yeah, because agreed. And as we said before, there wasn't actually no evidence of them actually having sex. Yeah. So just absolutely awful. It's horrible. Yeah. I mean, I guess. That kind of brings us to the end of the episode of Just Gonna Say That justice. Simon Moore was the the the judge on this and he made some interesting comments in sentencing.

1:19:06 He said that Kenson's childhood and upbringing has been affected by various traumatic influences which impacted his transition to adulthood and ability to make good decisions and the right decisions. He also said that volatile upbringing and cultural isolation may have led him to lie to those who we wanted to impress by pretending you were a man of affluence and social standing. And that appears to have been your modus modus operandi when attempting to impress the women you met.

1:19:38 Yeah, he's nailed that, hasn't he? Yeah, I. Really think so I I. Don't like the? The your, your upbringing is an excuse for why you are the way you are. Although I I get, I get that. But as an adult, you've still got choices to make. And, you know, there are so many people who grow up in horrific family circumstances. Yeah. Who then go on to leave very productive and very changed lives. And he just wasn't one of those people. No, I do think that there's some sort of brain. Chemical imbalance with him of like that this he was he was who he was psychopath maybe yeah I don't know but you know there's no formal diagnosis no released but no I mean there's there must be something there's something's not right about him at all like and I think that that every woman that's come in contact with him pretty much can and the fact that he has no remorse and there's.

1:20:29 No, to this day he has no remorse and he still argues that. It was, he has that rough sex, you know, it was what it was consensual rough sex bullshit. It's just such. Bullshit, but so he he did. Appeal, but it was all shut down. Never. He never made anywhere with any of his appeals. So this stands the the sentence that he's been given stands but he hope it's a lot longer than 17 years and it should be life. And he never gets out because I, I 100% he would. He would definitely offend again. Yeah, well, all signs point to to that.

1:20:58 And people, people like this are known to not be able to be rehabilitated. Yeah. I hope that the justice system in New Zealand recognizes that when he comes up for parole and he would literally never see freedom again. Yeah. Yeah. We can only hope. Yeah. In the light of this. They are her. Mum. Unfortunately her dad passed away in 2020. Death of cancer, which they say you know, they're think died of a broken heart too. So I don't know if he made it to sentencing even of her of him. But anyway I it was like at my date time.

1:21:31 I actually don't because the. Sentencing was Feb 2020. But he he. Did pass away in twenty 20/20/2020 as well so I'm not sure when, but yeah. In the wake of it, though, Grace's mom Gillian and her cousin Hannah set up a charity called Love Grace, and they collect bags and items to give to women who experienced domestic violence. And they also raise money for the White Ribbon Foundation, which obviously then moves to educate young men and boys around domestic violence to hope that the next generation is not going to be inflicting these kinds of things on women and girls in the future to breaking that cycle as well of.

1:22:16 You know, not repeating what you've grown up with. And, Yeah. And, you know, at letting kids know that there's no different options. And there's a lot of help out there for those who want it. Yeah, yeah. May. Grace, rest peacefully now. Absolutely. Yeah, hopefully she's with her. Dad and painting all the artwork she ever dreamed of while she wear issues. That's it, as always in these cases. Like the world has lost a really great person, and that's so unfair because why? Yeah, it's. Why do these things happen?

1:22:51 I It blows my mind to even think about it because it's, yeah, it's too much sometimes. A young woman should be able to, you know, adventure out. And see the world and go on a date and be safe on that. I mean, I have to. Comment on Justin. Trojan, who was at the time the Prime Minister of New Zealand when she came out, Oh yeah, when she came out to publicly say an apology to the family that their daughter should have been safe in their country and she wasn't. Oh, God, Like she. We need more leaders like her in this world, unlike certain others, because that that compassion, you could you knew it.

1:23:26 It was not a political thing. No, she said it as a parent herself, as a member of the of of the community. Just wow. Yeah. Can we have more of that, please? I just love her. Me too. Love her. Yeah. I've got a T-shirt with her name. On it.

1:23:46 Story for another day. Yeah. All right. Well, that brings us to the end of our final episode for 2024. However, guys, stay tuned over that. We're having a break for three weeks now. Our next episode will be released on the 14th of January, so stay tuned to our socials and we'll give a few hints about what that case is going to be. Yeah, Emma might try and do some dances over the summer. That we might post over doing So what? What do you know if I'm doing dances you're doing? I'm filming. I can't do both.

1:24:14 Film it. Yeah, you can, but. Over the next couple of weeks we are going to release a little bonus episode for everybody. So stay tuned for that when it comes out. So in order to be notified when that comes out, hit the notification bell or the follow button on your on your podcasting app so that you know when that's come out and you can have a bit of a listen. We're gonna do a little bit of AQ and a type of type of episode for you guys and we might leak onto the socials. What episode we're gonna do for our first one for the new year.

1:24:45 So stay on there and check those out as we go too. Excellent. Now thank you everybody for. Joining us again and we will see you next year, 2025, Happy New Year. Stay safe. Yeah, stay curious. Kind of besties. Bye. See ya.