Episode 25 - The Ashley Madison Hacking Scandal

0:15 Welcome back to Crime Besties to another episode of our podcast.

0:20 How's it going, Emma? It's I've had a week.

0:25 I've had a week, I think we discussed in the podcast last

0:27 week, my son ended up needing surgery last week.

0:30 And it's just, you know, the flow and effect of that.

0:33 Oh yeah. And I don't know, it's just I'm

0:38 looking forward to it being over and done with and I think he is.

0:42 Too. Oh, I bet he is.

0:43 I can't even imagine like being in that brace, like for this

0:45 time. So as a kid who is active, I

0:47 mean, he's doing well. I absolutely love sitting next

0:50 to him in assembly today. He's good entertainment.

0:54 I think he was corrupting you though, because were you one of

0:57 those kids at school who if you sat next to a naughty kid you

1:02 were easily influenced? Maybe you know how I know that

1:06 how 'cause that's literally what happened to you today at

1:08 assembly. You were sitting next to Oliver

1:11 and everyone's all quiet. Oliver makes some, you know,

1:14 snide comment or something, and you're sitting there laughing

1:17 while everyone's like, quiet I. Couldn't have we got?

1:19 I got the giggles for the long from one of them.

1:21 He said it was very funny. He's a classy.

1:25 I absolutely adore it. You can sit next to me at

1:27 assembly anytime 'cause God, that could get boring.

1:29 Well. Today's was especially long.

1:31 There were so many awards, but both of our like two of our kids

1:35 got awards, so that was nice to see.

1:36 Yep, we'll. Take that, love it.

1:38 Very, very proud mums for sure. Oh God.

1:40 And then the preps gap and sing and we're all just like 2.

1:43 That's too adorable. They're so cute.

1:45 While we were sitting at assembly, though, I got a

1:47 message from one of our friends. And like, you've got this is

1:51 this is on you, by the way. Me.

1:53 Yeah, she sent me. She sent me a a Happy Friday

1:57 message with a picture of the rock.

1:59 Oh. I love that this is spreading.

2:04 I'm so good that that's just like, you know, infiltrating

2:06 other spaces now. Yeah.

2:07 So thanks, Amy. I mean really that's, you know,

2:11 appreciate it And. Also, I have a clip to show you

2:14 just to go along with that another time too.

2:17 I don't think we need to be pushing this out into the ether,

2:19 but for anybody who hasn't watched our Elizabeth Holmes

2:22 episode, go back and listen, because then you'll get the

2:25 reference. Yes, go the rock.

2:30 I do have a couple of shout outs as well this week because we've

2:34 had, we have had so much engagement across our platforms

2:37 this week. I feel like every week we're

2:39 saying to people, please like and subscribe and comment and

2:43 that's the best way to get our podcast out there.

2:45 And we are seeing the effect of that now.

2:46 So thank you guys so much. It is so, so, so much

2:50 appreciated by us for getting it out there because we're getting

2:53 so many more people who we don't know who are just finding our

2:56 podcast and leaving really lovely reviews.

2:59 And it's so awesome, like open up a comment and see, like

3:01 someone just comment and say, you know, you're my new favorite

3:04 podcast or you know, and it's like we, it makes our Fridays

3:08 just so worth doing this, like because it is time out of our

3:10 week and you're in it. And I know that I'm we spend

3:12 time doing all this, but because we love doing it.

3:14 But then to get that little bit of incentive of like people like

3:17 actually enjoying it. And on the other end of it, it's

3:19 it's really nice. It's great.

3:21 So thank you the the shout out in particular.

3:23 And I think you just actually mentioned the exact comment.

3:25 It was like loving my new favorite podcast from Nico under

3:29 Score 333. Thank you very, very much.

3:32 Thank you. And I also caught up with a

3:34 friend, a couple of friends on Monday night for dinner.

3:37 And one of my friends who I haven't seen in, you know, in a

3:40 few months, she has been listening and she was so lovely

3:44 in saying that again, she listens every week.

3:47 She takes a bit of time out for herself and listens to our

3:50 podcast. So thanks, Cath I, we really

3:52 appreciate the support. I love that it's your me time

3:55 like you listen to us. Yeah, I was telling Meg about

3:57 how you take the potty into the sauna and have a that have a bit

4:01 of a steam away from, you know, all of life's pressures and have

4:04 a listen. So love.

4:06 That, yeah. Love it, sorry.

4:07 For that hour and a half that you're spending in the sauna,

4:09 though? Don't you take a giant bottle of

4:12 water in you? They're getting a bit long

4:14 sometimes. Last week's episode was huge.

4:17 Maria Corp that was massive. Yeah, that was that just got

4:20 released. So yeah, it won't be what you

4:22 guys have just listened to, but the one that just came out this

4:25 week in the week of our record now that was probably our

4:29 longest yet. So thanks to everyone who got to

4:31 the end of it it. Was worth it.

4:33 That was worth it because yeah, there's some good stuff in

4:35 there. Yeah, that's it.

4:37 That's it. What else has been going on with

4:39 you? Have you had any other bits and

4:41 bobs happening? We're.

4:42 Cruising along at the moment. It's like downhill run to

4:44 Christmas now isn't it? Like getting through.

4:46 I know the kids are just exhausted and like wears off on

4:49 me. Yeah, and it's a term for that

4:51 school. There's so much on.

4:53 Well. Literally like the, the kids

4:54 were like, we're driving to school the other morning and

4:56 they go to me. You know, there's a sign on the

4:57 side of the road that keeps counting down on this.

4:59 And it's absolutely killing me that every each week as we go

5:01 past this sign, it was like this week, Oh mom, look, it's 6

5:04 Fridays to Christmas. And it's like, piss off.

5:07 I can't handle. This is this why you said before

5:10 that you've urgently got to do some Christmas shopping this

5:13 weekend? You're feeling the pressure.

5:15 I'm running out of weekends, out of the time to do it and it's

5:19 just yeah well, I mean even like the whole for school and things,

5:23 there's only 5 weeks left of school that's really bothering

5:26 me that I've got like next year I've got a grade 2 and a grade 4

5:30 like that whole like that they move another level along.

5:32 It's just I don't like it. They should just stay in prep

5:34 forever. I.

5:35 Know it is so cute when they're in prep.

5:37 Yeah, the attitudes just not great.

5:40 Can we lose that? That's all part of it, isn't it?

5:43 It is. I last year I decided to wait

5:48 for the Black Friday sales to do all of my Christmas shopping,

5:51 and that was pretty bloody successful, I have to say.

5:54 So yeah, OK, I'm trying the same tact this year and which so for

5:58 us Black Fridays in a couple of weeks.

6:00 OK, so this is I don't keep track of it I.

6:01 Don't know. Well, you know what, there's

6:03 all, there's bloody sales going on everywhere.

6:05 And also, I didn't realize, but there was this like Singles Day.

6:08 So on the 11th of the 11th, 1111, right.

6:11 I think this is also an American thing, but well, I'm not really

6:15 sure. But the way I saw it, it's just

6:17 another day to market. You sell, people sell to people,

6:20 but it's like the single people's Valentine's Day.

6:24 OK. So people buy themselves stuff I

6:27 don't know. So there were sales for that,

6:29 but I'm gonna, I've written my list and for the things I know,

6:34 for the people I know what I'm buying for, that's great.

6:37 But I find then the people you don't know what to buy for, you

6:39 really do need to go to the shops and have a look around.

6:42 That or you do do online and it's the delivery like how long

6:46 is it gonna take to get here in that panic?

6:48 Cause I've had that happen. It gets that's closer and closer

6:51 to Christmas and that that package still hasn't arrived.

6:54 Yeah, that killed me one year really bad.

6:56 So I'm I don't want to have that happen again.

6:58 But that's why if you do Black Friday, you've got a month

7:01 basically until Christmas. You should be right.

7:03 I should be right in terms of delivery and then everything

7:05 else I'll just go to the shops for.

7:07 But then again, so off talking about deliveries.

7:09 This is hilarious. So I have quite a large dog,

7:11 right? Like he's.

7:12 Quite a large dog. He's the biggest bloody thing

7:14 I've ever seen. So I get his food delivered to

7:16 the house like once every month or six weeks, whatever.

7:19 And so it comes in a 20K bag. Now I have gates at the front of

7:23 my house and they close when we exit for the day.

7:25 And so the delivery just gets normally put like just at the

7:28 their side there just next to the gate.

7:31 That's fine. It's dog food.

7:32 Who's going to steal that? And 20 kilos of it at that, Like

7:34 no one's stealing it. And so that normally gets put

7:38 there. This week I saw that the the

7:40 doorbell gets hit, you know, and the camera comes on.

7:42 I checked and like, Oh yeah, it's just the dog food thing.

7:43 I need to talk to him because they'll just put it there.

7:46 The next thing I look at that I had to look back at the camera

7:48 because I see the guy with this 20K box of dog food looking at

7:53 the gate looking and then kind of like went, I'm gonna try.

7:57 He went to try and lift it and push it over and like throw it

8:00 over. Did he know what?

8:01 Was in it. I assume so, yeah, because it

8:04 was all like they only deliver like stuff from that, OK, that I

8:07 would assume he knows that that's.

8:08 What? He said.

8:09 It's not breakable or something. But at the same time, I'm like,

8:11 that's 20 kilos. You're fully gonna shot put over

8:15 the the the gate. And it's a tall gate.

8:17 Yeah, yeah, he did back out, thank God, because I'm like.

8:21 But then did he leave it about him?

8:22 He did, yeah. OK, because that that would be

8:24 annoying if he didn't. That was even.

8:26 Worry that I was like, then yeah, don't freaking drive off

8:28 again like that. Don't let me go to the post.

8:30 Office to pick that up? Yeah, that's annoying.

8:33 Who, what, what planet are you on thinking you're gonna throw

8:35 that over the. Fence Oh, he was just trying to

8:38 do the right thing I. Find they do some interesting

8:40 things at my place with parcels. So I do deliveries are.

8:43 I don't know, it's always nerve wracking, like yeah, where's

8:45 this thing gonna end up? Yeah. 99% of time there's

8:49 someone at my house, so my husband's either working from

8:51 home or I'm home. And on the off chance that we're

8:54 getting something like special delivered, my neighbour is often

8:57 home and I can just message her and go, oh, can you quickly pick

9:00 that up for me? Deliveries very.

9:01 Often, though, only. Daily.

9:04 I love that you had a bit of a thing going with your neighbour.

9:06 Where let you can you get that stuff on my doorstep before?

9:09 Yeah, before, yeah, I had this. Well, this was actually a funny

9:12 story, but when we went to Bali last year and I had this like

9:16 really drunken day with my mum and sister-in-law, it was so

9:21 bad. I got back from that and I

9:23 dropped my phone in the pool like I it was so bad, like I it

9:27 was. Yeah, that's not bad.

9:29 That's that is fantastic. I had the best day.

9:31 Peter took a video of me that day and I look back on that.

9:33 Oh, I'll show it to. You later to chat.

9:36 Oh, it's embarrassing because I was like, oh, my phone fell in

9:40 the pool, but whatever. Like, you know, I need a new

9:43 phone anyway. Like I just did not care about

9:45 anything. But anyway, that night my phone

9:47 did start working again. It all dried out and it was all

9:49 fine. And you know how I know that?

9:51 Because I was drunkenly buying all this stuff, like, I don't

9:55 even know, doing all this online shopping.

9:57 And my neighbor messaged me and she's like, you're getting lots

10:00 of packages. And I was like, am I?

10:02 I don't remember ordering anything.

10:03 And she took a photo of it and I was like, so look in my receipts

10:07 and I'm like, oh, Yep, right, right.

10:09 So just did a bit of a bit of happy shopping.

10:13 Did you do good Shopping wasn't. What I you know what I really

10:16 did because I did not hold back. Oh.

10:20 Love. This I got home from my holiday

10:22 and it was like Christmas had come.

10:23 It was bloody brilliant. Credit card got a great work.

10:28 Oh yeah. It did.

10:29 It really did. Oh.

10:31 That's hilarious. Anyway, Speaking of online, that

10:35 actually ties into today's episode really well.

10:40 Today we're talking about Ashley Madison.

10:42 Yeah. So this is a really this is

10:45 probably a little bit different to what, you know, all of the

10:47 other cases that we've done so far, because we're not we're not

10:51 talking about murder. We're not talking about.

10:54 Well, there are some deaths, There's some deaths and there's.

10:56 Certainly people who are maybe culpable for that.

10:58 Yeah, and some criminal activity for sure.

11:01 So it definitely falls under the umbrella of crime.

11:04 Yeah. But we thought, you know, we've

11:06 had a few really heavy episodes lately, so we thought we'd sort

11:09 of delve into something a little, a little different and

11:13 change tact. So sure.

11:14 And this and this particular case, like we were talking about

11:16 the fact that you can sort of come at it from various angles

11:19 of how you might look at this. And I know there's some there's

11:22 documentaries out there, like on the net, there's an more recent

11:25 Netflix one, there's one on Disney Plus.

11:28 There's been a lot of the like, that's something, there's been a

11:29 lot of stories written in the media about it.

11:31 Absolutely. Yeah.

11:32 From very personal perspectives, from the business side of

11:35 things, you know, legalities, all that.

11:37 So we're kind of like intrigued to see where we've both gone at

11:40 it from our research. So it'll be interesting what we

11:42 could have come at. We probably have a bit of,

11:44 probably a little from everywhere.

11:45 Yeah, I'd say so, yeah. So there's a few podcasts out

11:48 there around about it as well, but I actually found this stuff.

11:52 The documentaries were a lot more informative.

11:55 Yeah. In terms of what's available

11:58 podcast wise, I didn't really find that much that was any.

12:01 Yeah. They sort of good value to focus

12:04 very narrowly on a, a on an aspect rather than more broadly,

12:07 which I think from what I think what I've I've looked at, yeah,

12:10 I fairly looked at fairly broadly.

12:11 So we might tap into a few things.

12:14 Yeah, you weren't aware of if you've only looked at one part

12:17 of it. Yeah, hopefully.

12:18 I'm hoping, I'm hoping we'll be able to bring any bit of extra

12:20 information to everyone today. I was always a bit of extra

12:23 information when you think I love sort of delving into a

12:24 little bit of the pop culture of these sorts of things too,

12:26 especially a case like this where so Ashley Madison had

12:30 famously had a tagline of life is short, have an affair.

12:34 And I just love that The Simpsons did a bit of a take off

12:37 of this. Have you seen it?

12:37 Yes. Cracks me up.

12:39 So Marge Simpson starts to think that she might have a bit of an

12:43 affair and she jumps on a website named Sassy Madison with

12:48 the tagline. It's not cheating if you don't

12:50 know the person well. OK, that.

13:00 Was, I mean, they're very, very well done in The Simpsons Sport.

13:03 That was really gorgeous. Love it.

13:05 Love it. Yeah.

13:06 So Ashley Madison was founded in 2001 by a man named Darren

13:10 Morgan, Morgan Stern. He is not the main player when

13:15 you read most of what's going on, but he it was his idea and

13:18 he started it. He and his brother actually came

13:23 up with the name. Ashley and Madison were the two

13:26 most popular girls names in 2001 and they thought it sounded

13:30 classy. Literally, that is a direct

13:34 quote. They thought it sounded classy.

13:36 So that's how Ashley Madison, the website got its name.

13:40 What they essentially did was create a an online dating

13:46 website for people who were seeking out adulterous

13:50 relationships. So it was set up for meeting

13:55 people who were willingly wanting an extramarital affair.

13:59 Yeah, both men and. Women, both men and women, and

14:01 this was really pre like this was sort of the the starting of

14:05 online dating. This was not you know, I mean,

14:08 you look at today, how many apps there are you know, around

14:10 dating and things like that online, there's heaps I could I

14:14 mean, I don't even know half like any of them really yeah,

14:17 Tinder hinder, I don't know, there's there's tons and so, but

14:21 at this point, this wasn't the norm by any means.

14:23 So to come up with not only a dating website, but one that has

14:26 quite a niche kind of market, really what you would think of,

14:30 you know, it was an. Impressive idea it Well, I guess

14:34 it's very entrepreneurial. It it was launched in the at the

14:38 beginning of that.com boom when, when all when websites kind of

14:42 took off. And this was this, you know, so

14:44 much traffic was being directed to the Internet, whereas before

14:47 that hadn't really been a thing. So they came about it at the

14:51 right time. They obviously had an idea that

14:52 appealed to a lot of people. And, you know, at the start, it

14:57 was a little bit slow to get off the mark.

15:01 But in 2004, they brought on a new CEO named Noel Vitamin I.

15:07 Think 2007 he. He came in OK, Yeah.

15:10 And he really changed the landscape for Yeah, and drove

15:16 the website to being what it was known as when when it all, well,

15:21 even to this day, actually. Yeah.

15:23 So Noel Benjamin, he graduated from Osgood Hall Law School.

15:28 He began his career as a lawyer. So he represented.

15:30 He was more of a sports agent. He represented NBA players, NFL,

15:35 all these sorts of even some Olympians, Canadian Olympians,

15:38 you know that. So that was where his bread and

15:40 butter was. Can I just ask why do you think

15:43 he went from being a sport agent, which I know is a really

15:47 lucrative career, Yeah, to then, I don't know, taking on this

15:52 role as ACEO? Look, I can understand wanting

15:56 to be a CEO of a company, that's completely fair.

15:58 Yeah, But a CEO of something so salacious when you had.

16:02 Well, I think it was just one of many things he was tapping into

16:06 in. Business world.

16:07 OK, he. He worked at companies like Into

16:09 Performances Inc, Home Stores Inc, Jump TV, so he was

16:15 branching out into. Right.

16:17 Quite a bit of different styles of like, I think, you know, that

16:20 entrepreneurial side of things, you know, and I think the

16:23 marketing was really his jam. It was.

16:25 Yeah. So, so this was so he became the

16:28 CEO of Avid Life Media, which was the parent company to Ashley

16:32 Madison. But this guy was he's completely

16:36 shameless. Like how do you?

16:38 He's an absolute piece of shit. He is.

16:42 He's horrible. An early quote from him.

16:44 Yeah. So this quote's in relation to,

16:47 like, wives gaining weight, right?

16:48 Yeah. This is a direct quote.

16:51 Two wives gaining weight. It's a legitimate reason for

16:55 husbands to seek sex outside marriage.

17:01 Yeah, but that was that was who he was, was someone who was a

17:04 walking buddy headline like, you know, and he used that to his

17:09 advantage to promote Ashley get Madison.

17:12 That was no change stick. What?

17:14 So basically the his whole idea was that any publicity is good

17:17 publicity, you know, and so it was he put up these incredibly

17:23 offensive big banners, you know, that like people would.

17:27 Then it wasn't the fact of putting the cost up, of putting

17:30 up this, you know, billboard. It was then the talk that went

17:33 on after it about taking it down.

17:36 It was so he was. It was actually at one stage he

17:39 was on the Tyra Bank show. So OK love loved it.

17:43 Yeah, I have seen this clip. Though, Yeah, but I mean, he put

17:47 himself in that position where he was going to be, you know,

17:50 treated pretty poorly, but he knew that that would create

17:53 talk. So there was a guy on the Tyra

17:55 Bank show whose wife had had an affair and he blamed the

17:59 website. So he went on the web on that

18:01 show to literally have this guy want to beat the shit out of him

18:05 like you know, and so but that created more media hype and more

18:08 talk, so. And also he like hit their whole

18:11 thing is people are going to cheat anyway.

18:12 We've just given them a way to do it, the facility to do it

18:16 that, you know, we're not creating cheaters is his his

18:19 thing, which is cheaters already exist.

18:22 Well, you know, access is everything, right?

18:25 Yeah, if you're a drug addict and you have access to drugs,

18:29 great. If you don't, maybe you're.

18:32 Yeah. Yeah.

18:33 So it's providing opportunity. I I see.

18:36 Obviously there's a need because they had so many subscribers.

18:39 We'll get into that in a minute. Yeah.

18:41 But, you know, he's still created that opportunity for

18:44 people. So I mean, that's his moral

18:46 compass and whatever, that's fine.

18:48 So there was a guy in 2008, there was the the governor of

18:51 New York, Elliot Spitzer. So he was caught paying for sex.

18:56 He was, he was known as a family man, you know, all this sort of

18:59 stuff. But he got caught having,

19:01 buying, paying for sex, basically.

19:03 So what this Noor Bateman did was he took out a full page ad

19:08 in The New Yorker. And put which would have cost a

19:10 bomb. Absolutely.

19:12 So he took out the full page ad and it was a letter to Elliot

19:16 Spitzer saying basically, dear Elliot, why pay for sex when you

19:21 could have just come onto our website and not got caught?

19:26 Just the whole, the whole thing. I mean, that is genius, the

19:30 whole. I know I could hear what you're

19:32 saying in terms of he's a piece of.

19:33 Shit, he's a piece of shit, but he's a genius moral.

19:34 Compass is totally wack, yeah, but he's marketing.

19:37 He's. So clever.

19:38 So clever. So clever.

19:39 Yeah. He he also came up with a

19:42 tagline that was something along the lines of when monogamy, when

19:46 monogamy becomes monotony. Yeah.

19:49 And he's like, that one didn't work because people thought we

19:51 were talking about wood. Like mahogany?

19:55 Well, you were talking about wood in a, you know, certain

19:57 way. I love that, love it.

20:02 He is, But he brought his wife into this stuff too.

20:06 So his wife was on one of the billboards they put up saying

20:08 like, you know, and I think it was the words were like your,

20:12 your wife might be hot, but so are ours, like, and there's a

20:16 picture of his wife on there, like, yeah.

20:18 And then she'd go on to the interviews as.

20:19 Well, yeah, she he'd parade her around.

20:21 There was some really uncomfortable stuff around that,

20:24 though, because you see her sitting there next to him and

20:28 they tell that they've got this absolutely perfect marriage.

20:32 And we he we don't cheat. He doesn't cheat because he's

20:34 got the perfect wife. And.

20:36 And you can tell she's been coached within an inch of her

20:39 life as to what to say in these interviews.

20:42 And again, he's a marketing genius.

20:43 So he's he's come up with really great, you know, great answers.

20:46 And she's really well prepped. Yeah.

20:48 I find a lot of those interviews so uncomfortable to watch

20:51 because, I mean, knowing what we know.

20:53 And again, we will get to this. Yeah.

20:55 But and she it's like he's parading her outgoing.

20:59 See, see, like I'm perfect, I'm fine, but you guys can all go

21:02 off there and have your little affairs and.

21:04 I don't need to affair because we're so we're so everyone else

21:07 who has issues in their marriage, you should have an

21:09 affair. Yeah, Ashley Madison, they

21:13 prided themselves sort of external facing, prided

21:18 themselves on being discreet and private.

21:20 So their whole promise to the people who signed up to the

21:24 website was this is secret. Yeah.

21:27 Nobody will ever find out about this.

21:29 Yeah. They had really funny ways of

21:32 keeping it that way. So they used people would

21:35 subscribe to the website. Yeah.

21:37 As a male, you had to pay to engage on the website.

21:41 As a female, you didn't. Great subscription model.

21:43 Because you need women. Yep.

21:45 And women are less likely to sign up for these things.

21:47 So to incentivize them to do so for women, it's free.

21:51 For men, they paid on a credit basis.

21:54 So in order to send a message on the website, yeah.

21:57 So it was free to create a profile, but in order to send a

22:00 message on the website, you had to buy credits.

22:03 If you wanted to chat with somebody, each message you sent

22:06 was worth a credit. So say you have a message

22:10 conversation with somebody, that could be 50 credits, it could be

22:13 20 credits. If you wanted to have a live

22:15 conversation with that person, it was double the amount of

22:18 credits. Wow.

22:19 So if, say we happen to be on line at the same time and we

22:22 wanted to have a live chat, double the amount of credits.

22:24 Yeah. An incredible amount of money

22:26 was being had. So in 2004, they had 240,000

22:31 users. Yeah, 2007, which is when Noel

22:34 Biederman started. Yeah, they had about 1.2 million

22:37 by 2000 and 12:15 million, yeah, by 2015.

22:41 Thirty 7 million active, active users.

22:45 Absolutely. And what was the what was the

22:48 percent? Well, what was the percentage

22:50 though that were men? It was like it was over 75%.

22:53 But again. Yeah, I've got the figures here.

22:55 So in 2015, there were 27.5 million males.

22:59 Yeah, online and there were 4 million female members.

23:03 So you know 95% roughly were male, OK.

23:08 And that 5% that were female will come to yes.

23:13 So just going back a little bit to 2010 when you had had 7

23:16 million million members at this point.

23:18 Yep. Another one of his tactics with

23:20 his marketing was it in this at this point in time, do you

23:23 remember Tiger Woods famously had an affair?

23:26 Yes. And his wife, remember that's

23:29 like. So he was trying to the way it

23:30 sort of was exposed to the public was that he was trying to

23:33 get out of his house and she was like beating the car with a Golf

23:36 Club. Yep.

23:37 And he crashed his car. Yeah.

23:38 And everything right was all over the news that this

23:41 happened. Like I've heard about it.

23:42 Absolutely. And now at this point all of

23:44 like Tiger Woods sponsors and stuff were very like, oh, like,

23:47 don't know if I want to go near that.

23:48 Like. So he was kind of becoming this

23:50 bit of a taboo to be, you know, linked to him.

23:53 So what does not beat him and do goes directly to Tiger Woods and

23:56 offers him $5,000,000 to be the face of Ashley Madison.

24:01 Now, Tiger Woods said no to his credit, like, you know, but it

24:06 wasn't the fact of even him saying yes or no to that.

24:08 The fact that it was out in the media that this was an offer

24:11 that was being put to him was enough to publicize the website

24:14 that Tiger Woods was doing something that you could do too.

24:19 So he was some ways a marketing genius.

24:22 He really was. I'm I'm not denying that at all.

24:25 So 2012 the company revenue was $71 million.

24:31 In 2013 they were looking at we want to increase that more.

24:37 So they found a way to do that. They forgot to look at their

24:39 model and what was going on. And so this is $70 million.

24:42 Seventy $1 million is a massive amount of money, but how can we

24:45 continue to grow this? And as you were saying, only men

24:47 paid to speak on the website to, you know, communicate on the

24:50 website, but there weren't enough women on the website for

24:54 them to communicate with. So this is where they came up

24:57 with this idea to create these fembots.

25:00 So this. Reminds me of just powers.

25:06 So these fembots would be. Little and they're like pushing

25:09 gun nipples. Yeah, sorry.

25:12 Sorry, childish. Sorry.

25:15 Yeah. So they they created these fake

25:17 female profiles to spark men to spend more money, like so that

25:21 they were having these beautiful women, you know, with these

25:24 profiles set up that they would then communicate to men who

25:27 would then go, oh, you know, I'll talk to her and start the

25:31 communication. So they were spending more

25:32 credit. So by the end of 2013 there were

25:35 22,000 fembots. It's created on the.

25:39 Website So how OK I I saw figures like that right?

25:43 How did that then translate when these men wanted to meet up with

25:46 these? This is it for women.

25:48 So we'll get to that. So in 2014, the company revenue

25:54 grew using these fembots. They went from 71 mil back in

25:57 2012 to $180 million revenue in just two years by adding these

26:04 fembots to the website, which is just insane.

26:07 So by the time, by the time I hit we hit, we hit 2015, there

26:11 are hundreds of thousands of fake female profiles.

26:15 So even though as we said before, those figures were of

26:17 like 95% of being male and 5% being female, even that 5% being

26:22 female, what there were not many genuine possibilities of hookups

26:27 basically because it was fake profiles that were communicating

26:31 with these men. I think I saw somewhere that

26:33 there was something like 220,000 fembots, Yeah at any one time

26:40 and they were communicating with, I mean they, they could

26:41 communicate with like as many yeah men as what were engaging

26:46 with them. Men were getting like in this

26:49 sort. We'll move to this next bit

26:50 where he What they would get was like 5 women would all of a

26:55 sudden communicate with this one man with the exact same message.

27:00 Yeah. So men were starting to pick out

27:02 onto this on in about 2015. There was a real like this isn't

27:06 right. I'm you know this they they

27:07 were. It took him a while.

27:09 Like. You know, they enjoyed it for a

27:11 little bit, but then realized that he's beautiful woman.

27:15 So what one man did was he set up a website by the name of

27:18 Madison, actually madisonsucks.com.

27:20 Yeah. So and basically the website was

27:24 men coming on there to complain about Ashley Madison and the

27:27 experiences they were having on that website.

27:31 But Ashley Madison were not happy about this at all.

27:35 Like because this was this was not the any publicity is good

27:38 publicity working for them model that they had.

27:42 This was genuinely people going. I wouldn't use that website.

27:45 It's and. Also, they were catching them

27:46 out doing something that they shouldn't have been doing.

27:49 It's deceptive. It's yeah, not right.

27:52 So Ashley Madison, we're not OK with this and actually initiated

27:57 a lawsuit against the website. However, there's nothing illegal

28:01 around having a complaints website about something that

28:05 especially when they weren't, they weren't.

28:07 It wasn't slander because it was truth.

28:09 These were people's experiences on the website.

28:12 So it was actually nothing illegal about it.

28:14 And the owner of that website then started getting quite a lot

28:17 of threats via e-mail, all these things to the point where him

28:22 and his then girlfriend was quite scared and they ended up

28:25 moving house because they weren't feeling safe they would

28:28 to that level. So the all of a sudden though,

28:32 this one day, Noel Beedeman actually calls the owner of the

28:36 website and he he on to his credit, he immediately hit

28:41 record and recorded the message. He can actually find that

28:44 recording of that phone call and listen.

28:46 And it's pretty disgusting. So no, bitumen does not.

28:50 Hold back at all. He's very much like you must

28:53 take this website down and this is not on you know, and he's but

28:56 what he does is he's I think the owner of the website actually

28:59 says to him, is it you that's been sending me these abusive

29:02 messages to which no bitumen. He completely denied that then

29:06 said, but if you don't take the website down, I will fucking

29:09 kill you. Yep, like so you kind of like

29:12 well, is it him? Quite possibly of.

29:14 Course it's him. I mean, even if it's not him

29:16 personally, he's directed. He's directing someone to to do

29:19 that, which we can get to. Yeah.

29:23 So the basically though at the end of all of that, what happens

29:26 eventually is that Ashley Madison end up

29:29 purchasingashleymadisonsucks.com off of them.

29:32 I think in the leak, in the data leak, this all came out and I

29:36 think it was only for about 10 grand, but.

29:37 Oh, I thought it was. I thought.

29:38 It was not even more in the end. I thought it was something

29:41 around 50 grand. Yeah, right.

29:42 So it wasn't an insignificant amount of money, but it was like

29:45 it probably could have gotten him for way more.

29:48 Oh, I. Would have thought, yeah.

29:49 It would have. It was within their absolutely.

29:51 It was within their best interest to have the website

29:54 taken down. I think they would have paid way

29:55 more than that. But I love.

29:56 What he did, though, he didn't take it down.

29:58 No, he expanded it and made it a review site.

30:01 And I love how they changed the banner on it.

30:03 Instead of saying Ashley Madison sucks, it was Ashley, Ashley

30:06 Madison sucks. Question mark.

30:08 Yeah. And then it actually filtered

30:10 out and flushed out sort of all the negative by overpowering it

30:13 with positive reviews as well. So that, yeah, they didn't

30:14 remove the negative ones, but that it's sort of overpowered it

30:18 by these. You know what?

30:19 You might have had a bad experience, but all these other

30:21 people had good experiences. Again, marketing genius.

30:24 It for sure. So basically at this stage also

30:29 they're heading towards putting the company public as well.

30:33 So there's a lot going on for Ashley Madison in terms of how

30:36 well it's doing. I think it was almost looking at

30:39 being like a billion dollar company at that point.

30:41 And it was yeah, yeah. So that's when they'll put it on

30:44 the on the Stock Exchange. Yep.

30:45 It was valued at a billion dollars.

30:47 Yeah. So, I mean, that's impressive,

30:48 absolutely. But July 12th when it comes

30:53 along and a Monday morning on 2015 and the workers at Ashley

30:58 Madison start their day and open up their laptops to find a

31:02 message, I would like to read it to you.

31:05 Yes, it said. We are the Impact team.

31:09 We have taken over all systems in your entire office, all

31:12 customers, databases, financial records, emails.

31:15 Shutting down Ashley Madison will cost you but non compliance

31:19 will cost you more. We will release all customers

31:22 secret sexual fantasies, nude pictures, real names, addresses.

31:27 Avid Life Media will be liable for fraud and extreme harm to

31:30 millions of users. They gave them 30 days to shut

31:35 down the website. Wouldn't you just stress?

31:37 Oh, you would shit yourself. Oh yeah.

31:40 But also, when Noel Biederman came on board, he employed one

31:46 of his friends by the name of Evan Back as the VP of sales.

31:51 Yes, this man, you can see him in the Ashley Madison

31:54 documentary on Netflix. He's the guy with the glasses.

31:59 He clearly states in that, that so he's been employed.

32:03 He's never really used a computer before.

32:06 They've paid him back in 2004. They've paid him, I'm sorry,

32:10 2007. They've paid him $100,000 + 10%.

32:15 Like shares 10%. Yeah, that's the single company.

32:18 Yep. And he says that the promise of

32:24 security at Ashley Madison was something we said, not something

32:28 we did. So there would be repeating

32:31 themselves. Well, there was a whole.

32:32 Knowing that they weren't actually protecting people's

32:35 data, no, they had no extra anything in place.

32:38 They were just saying that they did the way.

32:40 That subscription level of a full delete subscription, yeah,

32:44 which didn't do any. Like people were fully paying

32:46 for something that wasn't even occurring.

32:48 Yeah. So in order to delete your

32:49 profile, this was another genius thing they did.

32:52 Yeah, if you wanted to fully delete your profile and they

32:54 said they deleted all your data, they didn't.

32:58 You had to pay $19.95 say which you would.

33:01 Expect today, today like that just should be a stand.

33:04 You don't pay for that. If I delete my account, you

33:06 delete my account. Yeah, but I also totally get why

33:08 they did what they did that people over a barrel.

33:09 They were collecting so much personal information.

33:12 They got people to decide, like they put their height, weight,

33:15 age, kinks, things, you know, sexual fantasies and preferences

33:19 in that. Yeah, I'd want that friggin

33:21 deleted forever too if I was deleting my profile.

33:23 Yeah, that even just shutting down accounts brought the

33:26 business 2 million odd dollars in revenue a year.

33:29 Yeah, just to shut down accounts.

33:31 So for doing nothing, and they were literally doing nothing.

33:33 It's not like they were actually deleting this data.

33:35 No. Just going back to the, the, how

33:38 they, the, the credit side of things, it cost people, men 149

33:44 U.S. dollars to buy 50 credits and you had to spend a credit to

33:50 send a message. Wow.

33:51 So that shows how expensive it was.

33:54 It's three. What's that, $3 a message?

33:56 Yeah, right. Yeah.

33:57 Just to write back a, you know. Oh.

33:59 Good. Hey, how's it going?

34:00 Yeah. Yeah, you'd want to be getting

34:02 to the point pretty bloody quickly.

34:04 Hey, let's meet at this place this time.

34:06 I'll see you there. Yeah, yeah.

34:09 So no wonder like the the the Fembots created such a big

34:13 revenue for them. Absolutely they would keep them

34:14 on the on the tag like for longer and longer to like.

34:17 And this this guy on the other end is probably going like,

34:19 well, if I keep responding, I might get further and might be

34:22 able to get her. Yeah, it's.

34:24 Crazy, at what point are these men going like some of these

34:27 bots? You see the photos of the women,

34:28 they are stunning and. That's what some of them were

34:31 complaining about, Yeah. Like kind of going these aren't

34:34 real like. Yeah, surely not.

34:37 That good's not actually messaging me.

34:40 So some of them passed the sniff test, others didn't.

34:43 No, no. It's it's it's crazy.

34:48 Yeah. So they you know, the the breach

34:51 comes the data breach of the impact team have made contact

34:56 and actually medicine or their parent avid life media are

35:00 beating themselves. Yeah, so they are not in a good

35:03 place. Like they are hunting everywhere

35:05 and anywhere. Like what can they do to stop

35:07 this? How can you know?

35:09 How have they been able to access this?

35:11 Who could it possibly be? And all these sorts.

35:13 This is growing. So apparently the officers were

35:15 just mental at this point. But only a week in, So they've

35:21 got 30 days. Yeah.

35:22 I mean, that's, you know, there's a good amount of time

35:23 they didn't they weren't being. I mean, they they clearly knew

35:26 what they had. I think this, this person

35:29 person's they had the data, you know, they were gonna release

35:32 it, but they've given them 30 days to make the decision of

35:34 what they're gonna do. It wasn't like they were like

35:35 tomorrow we're gonna release it. Yep.

35:37 They gave them a massive amount of time to get their shit

35:39 together and make a decision on what was gonna happen.

35:42 But after only one week of that, a guy by the name of Brian

35:47 Krebs, who was a cyber security reporter or still is he

35:53 basically one of the most well respected reporters around this

35:57 kind of side of technology. He was a New Yorker.

36:02 He so he was contacted directly by the hackers, the impact, the

36:08 Impact team, which is really unusual.

36:11 So at this point, obviously this is not public knowledge that you

36:14 know this hack is potential. No, actually that doesn't have

36:17 aware obviously and nor have the impact.

36:19 And in my mind, I would think that you wouldn't want it out in

36:22 the public at all. Like this would be the worst

36:24 thing you would want to have happen.

36:26 So as long as I can keep that under the wraps and hopefully

36:28 within the next 30 days, I can, you know, avoid this occurring,

36:31 you know, basically is the plan here, you would think.

36:33 Well, I think Ashley Madison's plan was to figure out who it

36:36 was and take them down. Take.

36:37 Them down that's right and then that happens and then this you

36:39 know none of this release and therefore the people who are who

36:42 could have been impacted never even knew it was even a

36:44 possibility. Yep, that would be in an ideal

36:45 world in their minds. So this Krebs guy he gets a an

36:50 e-mail directly from the hackers and in it were links to snippets

36:57 little bits of some of the stuff that they have on them.

37:02 So they literally there was some a couple of links that he went

37:06 to he was like OK, this is full on like if they've got this

37:09 that's bad like but being a genuine journalist he can't just

37:14 go and report on this. He needs to confirm that this is

37:17 legit and that it's the company is aware of it and know all

37:20 these sorts of things. So one of the links he clicks on

37:23 actually had a list of all the employees of the company.

37:28 And at the very top of that list was the CEO and it had his

37:31 e-mail address, his phone number, everything.

37:34 So this guy goes, oh, well, I'll take a pop here and dial the CE

37:37 OS number and see if you'll talk to me and see if we can confirm

37:40 this. So you would think though, if

37:42 there's a reporter who rings the CEO of the company when this

37:45 shit's going down, that he would deny, deny, deny.

37:49 He did not, no. It was a three to four minute

37:52 conversation where Biederman basically said, look, Yep, this

37:57 is going on. We know who it is, we know who

37:59 it is, but just trying to work out how we're going to go about

38:02 this. It's clearly someone who's had

38:04 access, unfortunately still has access.

38:06 You know, he put it all on the table where they were at.

38:09 He did not flinch at saying what was going on, which I find

38:13 really interesting. Yeah, I was about to say, do you

38:16 find that bizarre? I found that detail really

38:18 bizarre. Because he is a marketing

38:20 genius. Yeah.

38:21 What was his? Why did he think?

38:23 Yeah. What was the benefit of of doing

38:25 so, especially so early on? Because they still didn't really

38:29 know. In fact, they absolutely didn't

38:31 know what they were dealing with and what the outcome was

38:33 actually going to be. Because at the start they

38:35 thought this was just a threat. Yeah, they thought off.

38:37 There's no way. And then it was once they had,

38:40 because they had some really clever people working for them

38:43 that they figured out days later, oh, actually, this is

38:46 possible. Our security isn't actually.

38:48 I mean, they knew their security wasn't great, but they realized

38:51 just how great their security. Was they weren't able to get

38:54 them out of the system. That's it.

38:55 There was nothing they could really do these.

38:57 These hackers, or hacktivists as I've heard them called, really

39:03 had infiltrated their systems and they they had no way of

39:06 getting teasing that out and getting them out.

39:08 And what? This journalist then, what he

39:10 had received already was stuff that he he then could confirm

39:15 for them, This is bad for you, you know, like he knew what he

39:18 was looking at. Yeah.

39:19 And he's like, if they've got this and been able to send me

39:21 this, you're in the shit. So I guess they both were

39:24 confirming for each other. But yeah, I, I, I just don't

39:27 understand as ACEO why you wouldn't go no comment, you

39:30 know, or, and totally not allow them if you had to report

39:33 something yet. Totally.

39:34 But let him have it. And So what did he do that exact

39:36 night? He wrote his article stating

39:39 what was going on over at Ashley Madison.

39:41 And the next day, 20th of July, the media is a storm of this

39:46 story. Yeah, it is huge.

39:48 It is worldwide news. I mean, I actually remember this

39:52 happening. So do I, I remember it as well.

39:54 The other thing is I think we haven't even touched on this

39:56 yet. We've, we've been talking about

39:58 it being sort of Canadian, US. This was in 50 countries, 70

40:03 different languages. This was all around the world in

40:06 countries like Saudi Arabia where adultery is illegal, in

40:10 fact, it's punishable by death. You know, the, the implications

40:14 of this were massive. I.

40:18 The gravity of that had not yet sunk in, and I don't even know

40:23 that especially the reporting of it, that they would have even

40:27 had time or the wherewithal to consider the impacts of getting

40:32 this out there. Well, I certainly don't think

40:33 that someone like Noel Beedeman ever considered that.

40:38 No. Well, he he even if he did

40:40 consider it, he didn't care. No, he he did not give a shit

40:42 around the the, you know, people who could be impacted by that at

40:45 all. Not Yeah, I mean the setting up

40:47 of the website even says. That Yeah, I mean, they, they

40:50 were active as in Ashley Madison was active in India where there

40:54 were a lot of arranged marriages.

40:56 And it says, we know your marriage is arranged, but let us

40:58 arrange your affair. Oh.

41:00 Yeah. Right.

41:00 And so and which again, it is incredibly frowned upon, Yeah,

41:04 in a lot of countries where Christianity and, you know,

41:08 Catholicism and, and, you know, there was, it was so ingrained

41:13 it, it the impact is absolutely unknown.

41:15 I. Mean at this point, it's still

41:17 only a threat. Like, you know, it's so there's

41:20 people around the world panicking going, I'm on that

41:22 website. Shit.

41:24 Oh God, what am I going to do? And so even the threat of it now

41:28 getting out into the world is, is enough for people to be in

41:30 fairly look, I'm, I'm on the fence a little bit of like

41:33 sympathy in terms of the person who was on the website, you

41:37 know, that they've put themselves in that position.

41:41 It's impacting so many people. Overnight, they lost something

41:43 like 2.4 million users who paid to delete their accounts.

41:47 Yeah, too late. Not it was too late, number one.

41:50 But also, we already know that all of the whenever people

41:53 deleted accounts, it didn't actually delete anything.

41:55 But it goes to show that 2.4 million people acted immediately

41:58 going holy fuck, get the hell out of there.

42:00 Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

42:03 So I mean, obviously the Netflix documentary, they go into quite

42:06 a few stories specifically around people that is impacted.

42:10 But there's, I mean, that was only such a small amount.

42:12 I remember there was a radio station here in Australia as

42:15 well who, who tapped into this? And that was, you know,

42:18 searching databases and things for people.

42:22 But yeah, people were calling in and saying to this Australian

42:25 radio station and saying to find out whether their partner was on

42:28 there. Yeah, on the list or not.

42:29 Yeah, yeah. But even just before it even got

42:31 released, the data like that, the level of anxiety for people

42:35 was very extreme. Yeah.

42:38 So anyway, come to August 18th and then again on August 20th

42:42 actually there was two dumps of of data.

42:45 The press release from the Impact team again was came out

42:50 and this time it said Time's Up. Avid Life Media has failed to

42:56 take down Ashley Madison. We have explained the fraud,

43:00 deceit and stupidity of ALM and then and their members.

43:05 Now everyone gets to see the data.

43:07 Find someone you know him in here.

43:10 Keep in mind the site is a scam with thousands of fake female

43:13 profiles. See Ashley Madison's fake

43:15 profile lawsuit. 90 to 95% of actual users are male.

43:20 Chances are your man is signed up on the world's biggest

43:23 affairs site but never had one. He just tried to.

43:27 If that distinction matters, find yourself in here.

43:31 Well, that they almost failed you and lied to you.

43:35 Prosecute them and claim damages, then move on with your

43:39 life. Learn your lesson and make

43:40 amends. Embarrassing now, but you'll get

43:43 over it with And then the torrent file was attached.

43:47 Yeah, so they released it through a BitTorrent forum on

43:49 the dark web in a compressed file.

43:51 So the file was like 10 gigabytes, but it contains

43:53 something like 60 to 70 gigabytes worth of data in that

43:56 second dump. The first dump I think was

43:58 roughly 10. Yeah, in and of itself.

44:00 My understanding of a torrent is the more it gets open, the more

44:02 it. Gets spread, Yeah.

44:03 Is that correct? I believe so.

44:06 It was. I've, I've written down some

44:08 information about it, but I, I don't know enough about it to

44:10 explain it. But basically they put the

44:12 information out there that made it was accessible to people.

44:15 The more people then decrypted it.

44:18 Yeah, yeah. Then obviously the the

44:20 information was out there and anyone could access these lists

44:23 essentially. And then what people were doing

44:25 was creating websites with the data, Yeah.

44:27 So that it was searchable, so that you weren't just looking

44:30 at, you know, because there's 37 million people on that website.

44:32 You can't. So you have to search through.

44:34 Go scroll. Yeah, it keeps scrolling.

44:37 Yeah, yeah. It was then searchable.

44:39 We were making it searchable. Which, I mean, and it had.

44:41 So they did release everything they said they were going to

44:44 release. They released people's full

44:45 names, addresses, e-mail addresses, sexual preferences,

44:51 you know, So all of that information was put out there.

44:53 Yeah. Avid Life Media released a

44:56 statement. Have you read this statement?

44:58 No, it's really interesting. Yeah, read it to me.

45:01 At this time we have been able to secure our sites not true and

45:05 close the unauthorized access points, also not true.

45:09 We are working with law enforcement agencies which are

45:12 investigating this criminal act. Any and all parties responsible

45:16 for this act of cyber terrorism will be held responsible using

45:21 the Digital Millennium Copyright Act DMCA.

45:26 Our team has now successfully removed the posts related to

45:29 this incident, as well as all personally identifiable

45:33 information about our users published online.

45:36 None of that was true. What?

45:40 That's crazy. It's like, it's like away.

45:42 With, I don't know. But this, this then formed part

45:44 of the lawsuit against them because none of that was true.

45:48 They were working to try to do that, but the information had

45:52 already been leaked, and they knew what the hackers had access

45:55 to. They knew what had been tapped

45:57 into. Yeah.

45:58 That's that's just. Crazy, just going back a little

46:00 bit because I found this part of the story really interesting

46:04 before all this happened. Let's just say a, you know, a

46:07 husband's been on Ashley Madison and a wife finds a credit card

46:11 transaction that she doesn't know what it's for.

46:14 And some of these men, like I've seen credit card transactions

46:16 when I was looking into this where they have, you know,

46:19 multiple 150 dollar $149 charges in a day because they're buying

46:24 that many credits to have these conversations, right.

46:27 So wives are then looking at credit card statements ringing

46:30 up the company. They go through a, a separate

46:33 sort of payment portal company staffed by Ashley Madison.

46:40 They'd ring up the customer service and basically say, what

46:44 are these charges for? These are unauthorized.

46:46 And they would say, oh, we're a third party.

46:48 We don't, we, we take payments for lots of different

46:51 organizations. We actually don't can't identify

46:53 which what these charges are for or you're not the bill holder.

46:57 We cannot discuss this with you if the wives then called back

47:02 with the husbands on the phone. Yep.

47:04 They did, which they did because they were like, no, no, no,

47:06 there's something obviously wrong here.

47:07 We've had all these charges that we haven't paid for.

47:10 He'll be playing along going, yeah.

47:11 Yeah. What's going on?

47:12 It's. Going on our credit card.

47:13 To Ashley Madison's credit again, they would reverse the

47:17 charges. They'd be like, oh, we're we're

47:19 so sorry. That was absolutely taken in

47:20 error. Let us reverse the charges.

47:23 Then on the other hand, they'd get back on the phone with the

47:24 husband and go get us a new credit card, dude, because

47:27 otherwise you're, you're in arrears.

47:28 You can't. Yeah, you cut off and they

47:30 would. They'd go and get a credit card

47:31 behind their wives backs and they started again.

47:34 Georgie that that's, that was their business model, you know

47:37 that that I mean, Oh. My God, I know it blows.

47:40 Your mind, doesn't it? It blows your mind.

47:42 Can you imagine? Like, I just can't imagine

47:43 getting a job and going. So when people come up and

47:46 career their bill, you just need to lie about things and back the

47:49 and just basically, yeah. And there were so many women

47:53 working in customer service. This is it's, it's so

47:55 uncomfortable. With me, this is it.

47:57 Where's the sisterhood Yeah, like like I just can't I don't

48:00 know how like this whole story, all of it, just the the ethical

48:03 side of it really gets me Same. And that's where I say, like, I

48:08 sit on the fence around this whole who are the victims here

48:11 and how sorry I feel for persons who named whose name was leaked

48:15 because, yeah, that's crap. You should have your data,

48:17 should be, should have been protected as it was promised to

48:19 you. Yeah.

48:20 But at the same time you were doing something that was really

48:22 fucked. Up, absolutely.

48:23 Let's get into a few of the names that were leaked.

48:25 This is this is my favorite bit. So there were quite a few really

48:32 well known people whose names were exposed, The most prominent

48:37 of which or one of the first released.

48:38 So in that first data dump, this person was released.

48:41 And that was Josh Duggar. Yeah.

48:43 Of 19 Kids and Counting fame. So he's the eldest son of Jim

48:47 Bob and Michelle Duggar. Oh my God, we could do we?

48:51 In fact, you know what? We should do an episode about it

48:53 then, because what an. Absolutely.

48:57 I have to be honest, I've never got my head fully around.

49:00 That whole OK, well, shit show. Let me just let me just tell

49:03 you, Josh Duggar. Yeah, I've.

49:05 I've heard bits but I'm. So they're the Duggars are

49:08 devout fundamentalist Christians, but they've started

49:12 their own church essentially or worship with another family and

49:16 then that's grown to be what it is today.

49:19 They live by really old fashioned outdated values like

49:24 women must wear skirts below their knee.

49:28 Women are not to basically be educated.

49:31 They work in the home, they look after the children, the men go

49:34 out and earn the money. There's so many problematic

49:37 things. Yep, Josh Duggar in and of

49:39 himself is so problematic as a teenager.

49:44 It later came out that he had been sexually abusing 5 girls,

49:50 four of whom were his sisters. So the the show's called 19 kids

49:54 and counting because these people have 19 kids because.

49:57 They don't believe in contraception.

49:58 They don't believe in contraception and they, you

49:59 know, any child that God bestows upon them is a blessing.

50:02 So they've got nineteen children.

50:05 Oh yeah, Josh, who is freaking enough.

50:10 Oh, I know, right? Barely.

50:12 Barely managed the two that we've got, Josh.

50:15 Yeah, as I said as a teenager, sexually abusing is his sisters,

50:20 four of his sisters and a a family friend.

50:24 He married a woman by the name of Anna and they have gone on to

50:29 have seven children of their own.

50:32 Oh God. Wow.

50:33 So months before the Ashley Madison scandal arose, he was,

50:42 he wasn't even, he was interviewed by police about the

50:46 molestation when he was a teenager at the time of not a

50:52 lot happened at that time point in terms of him then receiving

50:56 consequences for that. That actually came a little bit

50:59 later, although he was never actually convicted of any of

51:02 those crimes. Oh, really?

51:05 At the time of the Ashley Madison data breach, he admitted

51:10 to adultery and issued an A public apology on the family's

51:15 website. On the Duggar family website, it

51:17 was woefully, yeah, inadequate. Yeah, yeah.

51:20 Well, what would be enough? To be honest, it just.

51:23 Oh, he remained married to Anna. I think they actually went on

51:26 and had another. So I think at that time they

51:28 might have had five kids. They've gone on to have another

51:30 couple. Oh Jesus, this piece of shit is

51:34 currently serving 151 months in prison after pleading guilty to

51:39 a charge of receipt and possession of child pornography

51:41 in 2021. So that just gives you stop.

51:43 Oh, no, it doesn't stop. Yeah, it doesn't stop at all.

51:47 At the time he was trying to be, he was trying to like get into

51:51 Congress or something, like he was doing something in

51:53 Washington. And obviously this completely

51:55 derailed that because the fundamentalist Christians were

51:59 like, oh, no, no, no, no, no, we are not.

52:02 We are. Even though I was gonna say

52:04 this, it's so problematic as a as a thing, but they distance

52:08 themselves from him publicly. OK, Yep.

52:10 Good. Yep.

52:12 Good. So he's he's one we then have I

52:16 know you love these guys, Sam and NIA.

52:18 So they were on the again, again, Christians isn't this

52:22 isn't. Interesting.

52:25 They have a YouTube channel. Yeah, two and a half million

52:29 subscribers. It is, you know, Rakes it in for

52:33 them. They are on the Netflix

52:34 documentary. So weird.

52:36 So their YouTube channel became incredibly popular after I know

52:41 you hate this, and it is so gross.

52:44 And I get it After Sam, the husband, yeah, revealed to his

52:49 wife that she was pregnant. Do you wanna get into that?

52:52 Should we discuss that now, 'cause I don't feel like there's

52:54 gonna be an episode in that otherwise?

52:55 Oh God, no. No way.

52:57 I wouldn't. So, yeah, basically what he was

53:02 an AD nurse or a nurse at the time.

53:04 Yeah. So he got this brand, this grand

53:07 idea that since I think they already had at least one child

53:09 at that stage, not two. Yeah, they had two, two children

53:12 at this stage where? And he was like, oh, wouldn't it

53:13 be amazing for me to be able to, you know, surprise her that she

53:17 was pregnant with the child that she's carrying in her body?

53:21 Like, so he decided that since he quite often does this, you

53:28 know, in his work, because, you know, women rock up to Ed with

53:32 symptoms or something. And then he's the one who sort

53:33 of goes to the woman and says, oh, well, the reason you're

53:36 feeling this way, you're actually pregnant.

53:37 Congratulations. He was like, oh, it wouldn't be

53:39 amazing if I can do that for my wife.

53:41 So she and I don't, I don't know, I sort of do query whether

53:45 or not this is legit. I have no no judgement that she

53:48 doesn't flush her toilet overnight because she's got

53:51 small children and I. Lived in a small house.

53:53 And yeah, I that does not faze me my slightest if that's what

53:57 they do. No, you don't wanna wake up your

53:58 kids. God, if that's, if that was

53:59 something that was gonna wake your children up, just don't

54:01 flush the toilet overnight. Totally do what you do, you

54:03 gotta do. But he would he collected the

54:06 urine in the in the toilet, which to me then it's watered

54:08 down. Yeah, it'd be very dilute.

54:10 Well, I just think look, if if she was pretty far along, then

54:14 OK, you might get, you'd still potentially get a.

54:16 Reading she might. She would know herself then,

54:19 like well. She in that video.

54:21 So I watched it last night again because I just wanted it fresh

54:23 in my mind for today. It's so fucking cringe worthy.

54:27 Yes, just it's her ruse as my as my sister-in-law would say.

54:31 It's gross. Like it's just it makes me

54:34 cringe. Nah he puts the pregnancy test

54:38 into the toilet and he's like oh I'm so excited to tell her and

54:42 she doesn't believe him at the start.

54:44 She thinks he's brought home a pregnancy test from work from

54:47 somebody who's who was pregnant because apparently According to

54:50 him, she'd I think phoned him the night before and said, oh, I

54:53 just realized my periods 2 weeks late.

54:57 But it all to me, it all doesn't matter.

54:59 Like I think it's staged. But this made them this episode

55:03 or whatever you call it of their.

55:05 Yeah, this YouTube video that they've uploaded.

55:07 That's what got their start. They'd been making videos and

55:11 things were going OK. The one.

55:12 Part of that was them singing frozen songs in the car or

55:15 something that had gone a bit viral.

55:16 Yeah. And this kind of like off the

55:17 back of that. Really, Really.

55:20 Yeah. Which I think a lot of it was a

55:22 little bit of Noel Beeterman style, you know, people being

55:25 like, what? Like that's not right.

55:26 Like, yeah. And so a lot of that, I think

55:28 what is what exploded them, you know, so much people going, oh

55:31 man, this is amazing. Their channel was based on the

55:33 fact that they were really good, solid Christian family and, you

55:37 know, and touted all of the Christian values.

55:41 When the Ashley Madison thing comes about or, you know, is

55:45 exposed, who's on there? Whose name's on there?

55:49 Sam, And it turns out he'd been cheating on her.

55:53 But their whole relationship. Yeah, yeah, fucking.

55:57 Gross. What a piece of shit.

55:59 Yeah. And he's he.

56:00 Like at first he only gave her a little bit of information.

56:03 He was like, oh, no, no. I was only on there for a little

56:05 bit of time and then and then it blew up.

56:07 And then it was he gave her a little bit more information.

56:09 Oh, actually I was on there for longer and because I think there

56:12 was a bit of information came out in the first dump for him

56:15 and then on the second dump there was more detail.

56:18 And so he's had to confess again of like more to it.

56:21 Yeah. So on the 1st dump I think he

56:22 said I've never cheated on you. Yes, I'm on the app.

56:25 I've never cheated on you and I have been to a massage parlor.

56:28 That was his first bit, right? Then after that, he admitted to

56:33 going to strip clubs and having extramarital affairs with women

56:37 he'd met on the site. They they are still together to

56:41 this day. And watch the Netflix

56:43 documentary. How she can forgive him.

56:45 I mean, I guess that's within her faith to forgive and to stay

56:49 with him. I cannot even.

56:51 Oh. I'm sorry, I was like, I I

56:52 rolled and I realized I'm being filmed.

56:54 I can't like. Yeah, as you said before, to

56:57 each their own, but for me it's a hard no.

57:00 How do you trust after that? I don't he like, you know, made

57:03 as if you know I'm. I'm a changed man.

57:05 Like what? Just because you got caught?

57:06 Yeah, that changes you. Yeah, Sorry.

57:08 That's not good enough to me. Like no fuck.

57:10 Off there was also a man by the name of Josh Taekman, so his

57:16 wife Kristen is on The Real Housewives of New York.

57:20 Oh, now I was 22, that was. Yes, yes, yes.

57:24 So he was the E Boost founder, so really incredibly wealthy.

57:28 And you know, they, you look at them like, again, a really solid

57:33 family. They have a couple of kids and

57:35 they're, they're so wealthy and you think they've got this

57:38 perfect life. And you look at them on The Real

57:39 Housewives and you think, oh, they are, that, you know,

57:42 they're everything you want them to be.

57:44 He claims that he's. I love the excuses.

57:47 There's so many. But he claims that he signed up

57:50 with friends on a drunken night and he never used the website.

57:53 Yeah, whatever. Whatever.

57:55 Good on ya. Nice try.

57:56 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Hunter Biden, yeah, who is Joe

58:00 Biden's son? So current serving U.S.

58:04 President almost soon to not be. Oh, that's I can't even comment

58:10 on that. He denied ever creating an

58:13 account. And he said that somebody used

58:15 an account in his like, without him knowing about it.

58:18 And look, it has been shown we're unable to prove any of

58:23 this. Yeah, but you never had to

58:25 verify your e-mail. So I could have used Meg dot

58:28 Arnold at, you know, at Hotmail. Yeah, Yeah.

58:31 And I didn't have to verify that e-mail in order to then start

58:36 using the site. So there is a possibility that

58:38 emails have been used random emails where they But where they

58:41 find that people were right is that people use their real

58:44 addresses and real given names and surnames and other verifying

58:48 information they. Trusted that the data wouldn't

58:50 be was. Secure.

58:52 Yeah. So in this, I think in Hunter

58:54 Biden's case, there's possibility.

58:57 Yeah, I think it's actually a fairly certain thing that his

59:01 account was used in error or like as in in a fraudulent way.

59:05 Yeah, Yeah. And he said it was one of his

59:07 really old emails that he hadn't used for a long time, but then

59:10 would. He have been at that point

59:12 because I mean, he's not. How old would he be?

59:14 Oh no, I think he was. I think he was like well into

59:16 his late 20s at the time. Yeah, right.

59:19 Married. I don't know actually.

59:21 Yeah, like I'm just thinking who I'm who I'm picturing like and

59:24 going well, maybe he wasn't even married, like.

59:26 Possibly not then. Yeah, which then if he wants to

59:28 go on a dating site. I guess, But then why would you

59:31 sign up to Ashley Madison? You just signed up.

59:33 So maybe he was married. Yeah.

59:35 Oh. But then, yeah, as I said,

59:36 things have come about that he's probably wasn't a legitimate

59:40 one. Yeah.

59:41 Hillary Clinton's brother, however, Tony Rodham.

59:44 Rodham, he also had an implication there.

59:48 He also denies it, but I think there's some fairly

59:51 substantiating evidence there to state that he was on the site

59:56 actively. There were over 15,000 U.S.

1:00:01 government e-mail addresses leaked with a.govor.mil.

1:00:04 Why would you use your work e-mail?

1:00:06 Yeah.govor.mil address. Yeah.

1:00:10 So, military or government? Get a freaking Hotmail or Gmail

1:00:14 account. Oh, I.

1:00:14 Forgot and a fake one. Like one that you don't use for

1:00:17 literally anything else you fucking idiots.

1:00:19 Oh my God, Florida State Attorney Jeff Ashton, who he was

1:00:25 actually the prosecutor on the Casey Anthony trial, which is

1:00:27 another case. We we do not have that on our

1:00:29 list, but I need to add it. He says that he signed up

1:00:33 because he was curious. Curious.

1:00:36 About what, mate? Jason Doray, the executive

1:00:40 director of the Republican Party of Louisiana, signed up.

1:00:44 He was later, after this was exposed and proven that he was

1:00:48 active on the site, hired by Trump's first administration as

1:00:52 chief counsel for external affairs.

1:00:54 So it's. Probably minor in terms of

1:00:56 things that someone that some people that party have done.

1:00:59 So yeah, yeah, why not I guess, yeah.

1:01:03 So they're sort of no, let's not.

1:01:05 I mean, no, I don't have the mental.

1:01:07 No, I really for that today. No.

1:01:10 So they're just some of the more notable people who, yeah, who

1:01:14 were exposed on the site. But there was.

1:01:16 Just regular, you know, next door neighbors.

1:01:18 Well, most. People were.

1:01:20 Yeah, and and on that, I mean, it wasn't just, you know, that

1:01:23 their their marriages then were breaking down potentially they

1:01:26 lost their jobs. You know, people were people

1:01:28 lost their lives. People did commit suicide over

1:01:31 this, you know, but there were also people who were being

1:01:34 extorted and blackmailed. So they literally people would

1:01:37 were searching through the the database finding out and that

1:01:39 you could find the person's e-mail address and their contact

1:01:41 details by doing that. And they were contacting them

1:01:44 and saying I've found you on the Ashley Madison website.

1:01:48 I will expose this to your business, business business,

1:01:52 your wife, all this if you don't send me X amount of dollars.

1:01:56 So people were being put in awful situations, even just your

1:02:01 regular Joe Blow like awful. I mean, to take people already

1:02:05 in shit situations and then adding to that and blackmailing

1:02:10 people is just so disgusting. Like, they've got to be the scum

1:02:13 of the earth. Like, yeah.

1:02:14 Yep, Yep, absolutely. There was one other person who

1:02:18 though ended up getting caught up in all of this again because

1:02:21 good point. Message.

1:02:22 Was sent by the Impact team. Yep.

1:02:25 And this one was directed at Noel Biederman.

1:02:28 Solely Noel Biederman. And the message was, hey Noel,

1:02:32 you can admit it. It is real now.

1:02:35 And then with that, they released all of his emails.

1:02:38 Oh my God, isn't this this? And this is salacious, this.

1:02:42 Is like, so these these emails, they they didn't just, they

1:02:46 revealed so much. They revealed a whole lot of

1:02:49 stuff that was illegal that was going on within the company.

1:02:51 So that's where the fembot stuff really was exposed.

1:02:54 As much as people were talking about it and saying it was

1:02:56 happening and that it seemed like, yeah, that's what's going

1:02:58 on. This confirmed it.

1:03:00 There was absolute evidence that they could use in a court case

1:03:03 to say the fembot thing was real and that Noel Biderman fully

1:03:07 knew about it. Yeah.

1:03:08 So that was definitely all there.

1:03:10 What else was there, though? It was also an exposing his in

1:03:13 his own infidelities, and they were infidelities like more than

1:03:19 one. Well and truly so he was.

1:03:21 Yeah, he was doing exactly what all these patrons of his company

1:03:25 were doing too. So I just.

1:03:27 Feel so sorry for his wife like he has still.

1:03:30 Together. Yeah.

1:03:31 But but again, we're going back to this coercive control thing

1:03:35 that we mentioned it. It comes up far too often in the

1:03:38 episodes that we go through. She got told what to say, how to

1:03:42 say it, how to parade herself around.

1:03:45 She's probably been told that this isn't a big deal and she

1:03:47 needs to get over it. And she's had a wonderful life

1:03:50 and she's, you know, been able to experience all of the

1:03:53 luxuries that him being involved with this website of Afforda

1:03:56 because it Absolutely. They were.

1:03:58 They are so rich. Yeah, so filthy, filthy rich.

1:04:02 I. Mean that's what's really shit

1:04:04 about this. So this has all been exposed

1:04:06 about him, like the the illegal things he's been doing and the

1:04:08 shit things he's been doing his wife, which he then resigns from

1:04:11 the company. But yeah, he walks away with

1:04:15 really not a scratch on him in terms of, you know, any impact

1:04:19 financially or anything like that.

1:04:20 He walked away having made a pocket load of money personally.

1:04:24 Yeah, personally from that. Situation.

1:04:26 There was a lawsuit brought about the parent company yes,

1:04:30 which was renamed Ruby Corp. After all of this came out,

1:04:36 there were 24 lawsuits against them in total stemming from the

1:04:41 breach. Yeah, and it resulted in a

1:04:43 payout across the 24 lawsuits of $11.2 million.

1:04:47 Like it's nothing. Well.

1:04:48 What happened with that was that it was it was a class action

1:04:51 suit where there were 42 members of that class action.

1:04:56 And in the process of this, the judge ruled that if they, the

1:05:00 claimants wanted to proceed, they must not be anonymous.

1:05:04 So that meant that this the, the number of claimants dropped the

1:05:08 minute that happened. So that dropped from 42 down to

1:05:11 only 18 claimants. So that 11.2 million had to go

1:05:15 between 18 people. And in, in relation to how much

1:05:19 that company made also freaking drop in the ocean isn't that it

1:05:22 doesn't mean anything. So that company did not even

1:05:25 bleed at all. Like that meant nothing to them.

1:05:27 It didn't matter, even though they lost the case they

1:05:31 discontinued, they didn't stop them doing anything.

1:05:33 Not even, not even close. I mean the website is still

1:05:37 active to this day and has. Very much so.

1:05:39 It's got a very healthy subscription based yes.

1:05:43 I've got a few figures to this day, yeah, it's still active.

1:05:46 So Ernst and Young were employed to do a study of the membership

1:05:49 base. And what they found was

1:05:52 currently the membership base is far more 5050 female male ratio.

1:05:56 And generally members are incredibly happy with the

1:05:59 security level, but it's almost like a false level of security

1:06:02 because they believe that because of the hack already

1:06:05 occurring, the company must be very aware of what they need to

1:06:07 do now to keep that secure. Do you believe that?

1:06:10 No, I don't know. So I mean, if you know big

1:06:13 companies like, you know, Optus and things like that, we know

1:06:15 here in Australia who've been hacked.

1:06:16 I can't actually Madison's website be hacked.

1:06:18 Really. So in 2021, the membership base

1:06:21 was 4.7 million. I'm sorry, 4.7 million new

1:06:24 members were added in 2021, but globally they're at 75 million

1:06:29 members, active members. Yeah, it's crazy, absolutely

1:06:33 crazy. And especially when you think

1:06:35 about now compared to when they started.

1:06:38 And now they're a sea of apps, as we were talking about

1:06:42 earlier, that to have a membership base of 75 million,

1:06:46 it's insane. But I guess in some ways, dating

1:06:50 dating websites are far more considered, you know, in the

1:06:52 norm of what people do to date these days.

1:06:55 That's right. But not only that, so are

1:06:58 different relationship types. People are more open to open

1:07:01 relationships. People are more open to.

1:07:04 Polyamorous relationships and I I get that, but there are

1:07:08 websites out there for people, Yeah, otherwise wanting that for

1:07:11 sure. So the fact that an adultery

1:07:13 website is still so successful. There's no that like the, the

1:07:18 societal view on adultery certainly hasn't changed, no, as

1:07:21 much as there are more people with an idea of like, yes, have

1:07:24 an open relationship or have, you know, bring other people

1:07:26 into relationship. That's, yeah, far more

1:07:27 considered OK than it was back in the early early 2000s.

1:07:31 But adultery is still not considered to be OK like so that

1:07:35 hasn't changed, but this website continues.

1:07:37 But it just goes to show you how many people out there are

1:07:39 wanting affairs. Yeah, I you know, 50% of you

1:07:44 know, all marriages in most first world countries end in

1:07:49 divorce. Yeah.

1:07:53 I guess that makes up a huge amount of the people who are

1:07:57 potentially, you know, subscribing to these websites or

1:08:00 to this website in particular. Yeah.

1:08:03 But just going back, I mean, they were still looking at we

1:08:06 haven't, there's no, we don't know who the hacker was or

1:08:08 hackers. So looking at who was

1:08:11 responsible for this, there's a particular person and we go back

1:08:15 to that original phone call from that Krebs, the security cyber

1:08:19 security reporter where already actually Madison had it in line.

1:08:23 Really, they knew they they were saying they knew who it was and

1:08:27 that this was an ex employee who had access and somehow it

1:08:31 remained to have access. So the name of that person that

1:08:34 they were thinking was doing this was this William Harrison.

1:08:37 So Krebs looked at this and he was like, he was like, yeah,

1:08:39 this could be the guy because there was he, this guy had a

1:08:43 substantial rap sheet. He looked and found his Facebook

1:08:46 profile. His Facebook profile had a photo

1:08:49 of him on it with a bulletproof vest and a handgun.

1:08:54 So look, you know, there was also then released in the dump

1:08:58 of the emails with Noel Beeterman.

1:09:00 There was a stack of emails between William and and Noel

1:09:03 Beeterman that were very aggressive from William with

1:09:07 some pretty, I mean, any semantic statements that were

1:09:11 like lots of issues between the two of them.

1:09:13 It would become clear that Noel Beeterman had used William to do

1:09:18 the harassment of the website from ashleymadisonsucks.com.

1:09:24 So he was definitely a he'd been used and inappropriately by the

1:09:28 company to do lots of things that were not OK and then.

1:09:32 And this guy had his back up about that and was not OK when

1:09:35 he was then dropped by the company.

1:09:37 Yeah, but he was incredibly good at what he did technically wise.

1:09:40 So he had the skill set, he had the.

1:09:42 Aggression. The motivation, probably.

1:09:44 Motivation, yeah. So he was a pretty good suspect.

1:09:47 So this cribs then looked into him a little bit further and

1:09:50 contacted this guy's step mom just to look into his background

1:09:53 a bit more and see where he was at today in 2015.

1:09:56 Where is he now to like could this be him to be told by his

1:10:00 step mom that William had actually shot himself and died

1:10:05 in 2014? Yep.

1:10:07 So does that rule him out from being the possible hacker?

1:10:13 Or could he have given his access to someone else and still

1:10:15 being some at play here and been in involved in some way at

1:10:20 having this come about? He's that's certainly possible.

1:10:24 Or like is a real grey I reckon area over nor beat him himself.

1:10:31 Just putting it out there. Yeah, I, I, I agree.

1:10:35 Yeah, I think you can. Just I wouldn't trust that man

1:10:40 as far as I could throw him. And I also wouldn't put anything

1:10:43 past him. He is, as I said at the start, a

1:10:46 piece of shit. Yeah, not much else has sort of

1:10:51 been bandied about. I did see one other name, but it

1:10:54 was disproven. So it's not even worth putting

1:10:56 it out in the ether in terms of who was in charge of the Impact

1:11:02 team, whether there was more than one person, whether it was

1:11:05 a team or a person, you know, there's, there's a lot of

1:11:07 conjecture out there. I don't think it really matters

1:11:10 at the end of the day. No, because what's happened has

1:11:13 happened and people have. They do say around hackers is

1:11:16 that they they have a pattern for how they do things.

1:11:20 And somehow usually you can, I don't know enough about this

1:11:23 stuff, but apparently if you, if a hacker has done some hacking,

1:11:27 you can see the evidence of their hack in something else.

1:11:29 Yes, right. And what they have said is that

1:11:32 this impact team have never been seen prior to this or after or

1:11:36 since. So this is the only hack that

1:11:38 they've done. So not to say that means you get

1:11:40 away with it. You know, you can do one and

1:11:41 this one's the one you get kind of thing.

1:11:43 And that they shouldn't be prosecuted for for something.

1:11:45 But at the same time, they're not continuingly to continuing

1:11:49 to do this and hack information elsewhere.

1:11:50 Yeah, Yeah. I don't know.

1:11:53 It's, it's an interesting one, yeah, that's for sure.

1:11:56 Yeah, I think. Have you got anything else to

1:11:59 add for for the end of this? Other than just the, I guess the

1:12:02 ethical side of it of like, you know that at the end of the day,

1:12:05 what's consensual between a married couple is completely

1:12:08 fine in my mind and agreed, fucking go for it.

1:12:11 But when there's deceit and betrayal involved.

1:12:15 And all that. Secrecy.

1:12:16 You're a piece of shit. Yep.

1:12:18 And you, I think, yeah, you've put yourself out there, You've

1:12:20 put your details online and you're seeking out affairs,

1:12:25 maybe sort shit out in your own backyard.

1:12:28 First, Yeah, yeah, yeah. Anyway, yeah, that definitely

1:12:36 brings us to the end of this episode.

1:12:37 I think we could probably go on and speak about how shitty

1:12:41 people are for a long, long time.

1:12:43 We're good at that, aren't we? Totally.

1:12:47 Next weeks episode we're going to be talking about the Beaumont

1:12:50 children. Yes, this is an old Australian

1:12:52 case that look, there's a lot out there about it and I'm

1:12:57 looking forward to really getting my teeth stuck into it

1:13:00 so. This is an interesting one.

1:13:01 It is, so join us next week for that.

1:13:03 Thank you again to everybody for listening today.

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1:13:31 So thank you very much for joining us.

1:13:32 Stay curious, crime besties. Bye.