Episode 24 - Jane Thurgood-Dove

0:16 Welcome back to Crime Besties. We're here for another episode,

0:19 up to episode 24 this week. Hi Emma, how you going?

0:22 I'm great Meg, we hit a bit of a milestone this week and I'm a

0:26 bit excited you shared it on our socials.

0:29 We hit 10,000 listens across all of our episodes so far.

0:33 So in less than a week after that, we're at 10 1/2 thousand,

0:36 yeah. Yeah, we're, we're gearing up

0:38 for almost 11,000 now. So thank you to everybody for

0:41 listening and we love the fact that it's like gaining traction

0:44 and we, you know, we're getting more and more amazing feedback.

0:47 We had some really nice feedback this week from a listener who we

0:53 don't neither of us know. I think we mentioned somebody

0:55 last week who we don't know and you know, this person's been

0:58 leaving some really lovely comments and and liking a lot of

1:02 our posts. So thank you very much to

1:04 Sweetheart Nail Studio. That's her handle.

1:07 I could do with a good nail studio too.

1:08 Where are you? Yeah, actually, yeah.

1:10 Let us know. But anyone who wants to follow,

1:13 I had a quick look at her Instagram and it looks gorgeous.

1:15 So I hope she's local. So thanks so much for listening

1:21 and and to everybody who who is listening, we really, really

1:24 appreciate it. So thank you.

1:27 Yes, for sure. How has your week been

1:29 otherwise? Yeah, it's been a week.

1:33 I'm Yep, surviving this week. We'll put it that way.

1:36 Yeah. Yeah.

1:37 How about you? Because you've had a week.

1:39 We've had a bit of a week. I think I mentioned in one of

1:41 our episodes a few weeks ago that my son injured himself and

1:45 needed some stitches. And unfortunately, just due to

1:49 the nature of of where he, he had the cut and oh, anyway, it's

1:55 split open again and he ended up you.

1:57 Messaged me on Monday like I just was like no like this is

2:01 crazy. It needed to be surgically

2:03 revised yesterday. So anyway, look, we're on the

2:06 right path now, but he's in a brace.

2:09 He's. So he's 10 years old.

2:10 He's probably one of the most active people I know.

2:14 And he's in a brace from fire to calf because he can't bend his

2:17 knee for at least two weeks. So good luck to us.

2:20 Yeah, I was. Gonna say it's more good luck

2:22 to. You.

2:22 Yeah. Godspeed.

2:25 I know I was racking my brain and like, after I'd spoken to

2:27 him, this is what was kind of happening.

2:28 I'm like, what can we do? What what can we like?

2:31 Yeah, give him to like entertain him.

2:34 I know Google searching things. Like I was like, Oh my God.

2:37 Because you're gonna go a bit crazy.

2:39 I. Think, look, we're lucky he

2:40 loves a video game and he's got a few shows that he wants to

2:44 watch in a movie or two. So oh, that'll get there.

2:47 Yeah, but then it's kind of like don't ruin all of the Christmas

2:50 holidays. That's.

2:51 Right. Well, hopefully Christmas

2:53 holidays we can be more active and do this is.

2:55 It by then. The hippies will be fine you.

2:57 Won't wanna go to the movies or won't wanna go to like, yeah,

2:59 yeah, that's it, That's it. Although you do have to work on

3:02 certain days I guess and I think.

3:03 That's true. That's true.

3:05 We'll just shout out and I'll come and grab him.

3:07 Thanks. I'm not taking him to a

3:08 basketball court. Can we just rule that one?

3:10 Out. Yeah, Fair call.

3:11 Yeah, The last time that that actually was on the last day of

3:14 work last year. Yeah, Meg and I thought we'd

3:17 we'd get the boys together for a bit of a pre Christmas catch up.

3:21 Yeah. And Ollie broke his arm really

3:23 badly so. It was more seconds of getting

3:25 to the park. Yeah, Oh my God, and that needed

3:28 surgery as well. It's just odd.

3:30 He's it's I mean, look, active kids, these things happen.

3:34 It's. Why his nickname is what it is?

3:36 Yep, All of a sudden. All of a sudden, yeah.

3:38 I love that. Yeah, it's so good.

3:40 Suds for short. Oh, it suits him.

3:44 To a team it certainly does. He is who he is and we love him

3:47 for it. Yeah, so that's that'll be our

3:50 weekend. He's just He's home from school

3:52 today and resting up but. So if you hear some noise in the

3:55 background, it's just him, I don't know, killing someone on

3:57 Fortnite? Yeah, exactly.

3:58 Well, a couple of his mates are home from school today.

4:01 I just had a message from one of the mums to say that they're on

4:03 online together so at least he's being entertained.

4:07 Oh gosh, there's a few bugs going around.

4:08 So yeah, I'm sure there are a few kids at home.

4:10 Yeah, that's so funny. He's.

4:11 I knew, I knew he wouldn't interrupt us as long as I gave

4:14 him Fortnite and some snack food, Yeah, he'll be absolutely

4:19 fine. I know I went out there before.

4:22 I love it though. I said to you know how you're

4:23 feeling. He goes.

4:24 I'm all right, but I'm bit busy on my game.

4:28 Like yeah, thank you guys for asking, but please don't

4:30 interrupt any further. Oh God, he's so cute.

4:35 Gorgeous. Oh gosh.

4:36 So let's get into today's episode.

4:39 I guess we interesting one. It is an interesting one.

4:41 There's not a lot of information out there, but we are talking

4:44 today about the case of Jane Thurgood Dove.

4:48 Jane was born on the 17th of March in 1963 and she met her

4:53 husband, Mark Thurgood Dove, when they were at school.

4:56 So they were like, you know, high school sweethearts and they

5:00 had three children at the time of at the time of this incident.

5:05 Mum speak about them as a couple and a family.

5:07 It was just beautiful. I had, I sort of had a bit of a

5:11 tear in my eye, like, you know, yeah, the way she sort of spoke

5:13 about, you know, the fact that they were like the perfect

5:15 family, which is just lovely. They were.

5:17 They were meant to be together. Yeah, and a lot of love in the

5:20 home. You know, they were a really,

5:22 you know what, what you would want a suburban family to be.

5:26 Yeah. Mum, dad and three kids.

5:27 Yeah. At the time of the incident,

5:30 their eldest son Scott was 11 years old, Ashley daughter was

5:35 six years old and their youngest daughter, Holly, was three years

5:37 old. Yeah, Jane's parents were very

5:42 involved in their family life and it sounds like they were

5:45 incredible, an incredibly close and tight knit sort of extended

5:49 family. Her parents were John and Helen

5:53 McGill. We'll be talking about them a

5:56 lot as the episode goes through because they are pivotal in in

6:01 terms of the way this case played out.

6:03 They're just amazing people. Strong people.

6:08 Really strong people to this day.

6:10 Like there's, there's stuff out there from, you know, as

6:13 recently as 2021 where they're still in the media advocating

6:17 for certain things. Again, we'll get to that as the

6:19 time goes on. On the 6th of November in 1997.

6:24 Two days. Ago, like we're so like, yeah.

6:26 Well, yesterday for us, as in like yesterday was Oaks Day.

6:29 We're recording the day after Oaks Day today.

6:31 So this happened on Oaks Day, which happened to be the 6th of

6:35 November in 1997. Jane had picked up the three

6:39 kids, so obviously it's still a school day.

6:41 She picked up the two eldest from school and the youngest

6:43 from daycare I believe, or preschool.

6:47 I think so, yeah. From what I can gather, either

6:49 that or she was at home with her.

6:51 She was doing home duties kind of stuff the day, Yeah, doing

6:55 that, all those sorts of things. Because they got to the school

6:57 pickup and I know she had a chat with one of the school mums and

7:01 there was actually a conversation around, hey, come

7:02 over and bring the kids, have a cup of coffee after school

7:06 pickup. To which she'd responded.

7:08 I've literally got a load of washing on at home, so I'm gonna

7:11 go. I need to go home and put that

7:12 out, you know? So we'll give it a miss today.

7:15 Yeah, yeah. So she's picked the kids up from

7:18 school and headed straight home instead.

7:19 I just wonder whether had that friend gone, whether things

7:23 would have ended differently. I don't know.

7:25 Because given, given the nature of what happened next, yes, I

7:29 would imagine they were gonna do what they were gonna do

7:31 regardless of who was there. Yeah.

7:33 Exactly. So Jane has pulled into the

7:35 driveway of her home in Muriel St.

7:37 Nidri IN Melbourne. So it's in a northern suburb of

7:41 Melbourne near Essendon, is probably the most prominent,

7:45 yeah. Suburb out of out of the city, I

7:47 think, yeah. It's not far.

7:48 Yeah, as she's pulled into the driveway, a blue, a metallic

7:54 blue Holden Commodore, late model Holden Commodore has

7:57 pulled up behind her and basically blocked her into her

8:00 driveway. Yeah, and a pot bellied man gets

8:04 out of the car with a gun. He chases her around the car

8:08 twice. So at this stage, the three kids

8:09 are still strapped into the back.

8:11 She's literally just pulled into the driveway.

8:12 Elders. Was in the front seat and her

8:14 two younger ones in the back, but they remained in the car.

8:17 Yeah. And strapped into that, the at

8:19 least the two in the back were still in car seats.

8:21 So they were still, you know, still strapped in.

8:23 Yeah, this man shot her twice. So she he's chased her around

8:29 the car twice. She's then tripped and fallen as

8:32 she's trying to get away and he shot her at point blank range

8:36 twice. Yep, right in the back of the

8:38 head. Yep.

8:41 He run down the driveway to the car that was parked at the

8:44 bottom and jumped straight into the passenger seat where there

8:47 was a scrawny looking guy with sort of longish hair, graying

8:52 dark hair. And he has floored it.

8:54 And they've driven off down Mural Street, by the way, end of

8:58 Mural Street. Do you know what the name of the

9:00 road is? What?

9:01 Hoffman Rd. Spelt incorrectly.

9:03 Of course it is. I didn't see that.

9:06 And then I was looking at him. I was like, oh, that's funny.

9:07 Oh. That is funny.

9:08 That's interesting. That's my surname for those

9:10 people. Yeah, they've jumped straight in

9:13 the car. So he's, there's obviously a

9:14 driver and this guy who's committed the the actual act

9:18 lips straight in the car, driven off quite speedily down the road

9:20 and taken off. Yeah.

9:22 So there's a couple of witnesses to this whole event, except

9:24 neighbours, obviously they've heard gunshots.

9:26 Whatever have seen been out in the neighbourhood has seen, have

9:29 seen the incident as well as obviously, unfortunately her

9:32 three children who were in the car and have witnessed this as

9:34 well. Yeah.

9:35 So in terms of those witnesses, what did you find out about

9:39 them? Not a lot, did you?

9:40 Find anything I couldn't the. Only so I only found something

9:42 about one of the witnesses. I know he was a male.

9:45 He was walking, just walking in the street at the time.

9:48 He was standing on the other side of the road.

9:51 But he saw enough that he was actually able to eventually

9:55 successfully identify the purse. The gunman, yes.

9:58 So the gunman was not like disguised in any way, I think

10:04 did did he have anything covering his face?

10:08 I don't think he. Did no no.

10:10 So Bella Club, that comes up into things later.

10:12 Yeah, I don't believe he he was wearing it at the time, but.

10:14 The the best description that came from the witness of of

10:18 those people on the street, but also then also her oldest son.

10:21 Mm hmm. Is this potbelly was the most

10:23 definitive, like sort of that he was short and pot bellied.

10:27 Yeah. Like, sort of beer belly?

10:28 Kind of, yeah. So he's, you know, obviously the

10:34 witnesses, they've gone to try and assist in any way.

10:37 But I mean, she was shot at point blank range.

10:39 There was no assisting her. She she had had died in that, in

10:43 that, in that instance, yeah. The police obviously attend the

10:46 scene and the homicide squad is called in.

10:49 Yes, they pretty was heading up the homicide squad.

10:52 Well, I don't think he was on that first day.

10:53 He was. Was he on the first day?

10:55 He got the phone call just after 4:00 PM to head out to the to

11:00 the scene. Yep.

11:01 So we're talking about none other than Ron Idols.

11:04 We've mentioned before on this show and in Melbourne.

11:07 He is like well known to Melbourne around his head up the

11:11 homicide squad for 20 years or something.

11:14 Yeah, yeah. So he's amazing.

11:16 He's just an incredibly beautiful man.

11:18 We've seen him speak live and he's just great.

11:22 But he's got his own podcasts and he's got his own TV series

11:26 called The Good Cop, where he talks about cases.

11:28 So he's got like a 99% success rate from all the homicides that

11:32 he's looked into over his years of experience.

11:35 So this was his. So yeah, he got the phone call

11:37 come in just after 4:00 PM to head out to Muriel Street.

11:41 And from all the information he got at that point was that it

11:44 was a drive by shooting and that to go and check this woman has

11:48 been shot. So when he's arrived on the

11:50 scene, he's basically said that he as he walked in, he saw that,

11:54 you know, this beautiful woman in a, you know, youngish 34 year

11:57 old woman with three children's been brutally murdered.

12:01 And the three kids at that stage, the police had already

12:03 removed them from the scene and taken them down to a milk bar

12:07 down the road. So he after assessing the scene

12:10 and directing people as to where he wanted them to because he was

12:12 obviously the head of the of this scene at that point, he's

12:16 then wandered down to the milk bar to go and have a chat with

12:18 the kids. So, and I'm sorry, but if any

12:22 detective was going to interview my children at a point of that,

12:24 I would have Ron Iddles any day of the week.

12:26 He would or Noel Fraser. Utterly beautiful.

12:28 Yes, Absolutely. Yeah.

12:30 So I'm certain that the only reason he got as much

12:33 information as he did at that time is because he is so

12:36 incredibly beautiful. So he spoke to young Scott, who

12:39 was like 10 1/2, eleven. At the time, 11, yeah.

12:43 Yeah, so he spoke to him about things that I can only imagine

12:46 that poor kid at that in that point.

12:49 And he was able to describe the man.

12:51 But he's actually Ron's first question to him, what was going

12:53 through his head was, as we all do, a mum, a woman killed.

12:58 Who do you first immediately think Dad.

13:00 Dad, the husband? Yeah.

13:01 What's the issue here? Where's Dad?

13:03 What's the idea? So he was expecting to find out

13:05 that they were separated, if not, you know, for a long time

13:09 recently, something, something tumultuous.

13:11 So his first question to Scott is where's Dad, mate?

13:14 Expecting to hear. Oh, you know, you know, that he,

13:17 dad had been the one who was there or, you know, or something

13:21 along the lines. And he said Dad, dad went for

13:24 work to work this morning, you know, so he's like immediately,

13:26 OK, not separated, this is different.

13:30 So it immediately sparked for him that this was something very

13:33 unusual. I think I've heard Ron mentioned

13:36 the fact that you know this is where you start, of course,

13:39 because 8 out of 10 murders in your home are committed by your

13:44 significant other. We've.

13:45 Spoken about the statistics. Yeah.

13:47 So we've spoken about this in, we've spoken about this in

13:50 previous episodes as well. And if it's not your intimate

13:52 partner, then I think it's like 9 times out of 10, the person is

13:57 known to you in some way, same way.

13:59 So the police have actually gone to Marks place of work.

14:04 He worked at a factory in Broadmeadows.

14:07 And they wanted to see what his reaction was like when they told

14:10 him, yeah, that his wife had been murdered.

14:13 And apparently, according to Ron, the reaction was absolutely

14:19 that, yeah of a distressed and distraught human being who had

14:23 no idea. So obviously they needed to

14:25 corroborate his alibi and all of that sort of stuff.

14:29 Some people are very good at, you know, acting so you can't

14:32 rule it out, but it's not at all.

14:33 But from everyone's point of view at that point was like,

14:36 well, this isn't a a clean cut. Yeah, that's for damn sure.

14:39 That's it, yeah. At the same time, they've sent

14:42 another detective, a different detective around to John and

14:45 Helen Mcgill's house. And their retelling of this

14:49 breaks my heart. So the detective knocks on their

14:54 door. It's about 5:50 PM on on the day

14:57 of the murder. So on Oaks Day.

14:59 And it sounds like they were sort of fairly interested in

15:01 horse racing because they'd actually been watching the races

15:04 on the TV and decided to have a bit of an early dinner.

15:07 The they described the evening as a lovely warm evening.

15:10 And you know, they're getting getting dinner already and

15:14 they're sitting down and having their dinner and there's a knock

15:16 on the door. They go and answer the door and

15:19 the detective who presents says to them, are you, is Jane your

15:26 daughter? They say yes.

15:29 And let me just get, I'm sorry. Let me just get the exact quote

15:35 because it it's absolutely horrible.

15:39 Oh, sorry. The the detective says you have

15:41 a daughter, Jane. They say yes.

15:43 And this detective says she's been shot and she is now dead.

15:49 Who was that that sent? Which I don't know.

15:51 They've never named that detective.

15:53 Well, it wasn't Ron, I'll put. Give it it wasn't Ron.

15:55 It absolutely they know they've said it wasn't Ron because

15:58 they've then since had a lot of dealings with Ron.

16:00 Yes, but when I like I've heard the mum actually interviewed and

16:06 she said this quote, I'm like what the fuck?

16:09 Who says who says that? And this was at their door,

16:12 apparently. Oh, yeah.

16:17 How would you even react to that?

16:18 No, you'd. Be like what are you talking?

16:21 About Yeah, and. And these detectives also said

16:24 something along the lines of, well, we're gonna need to

16:26 eliminate you because you're a suspect, which they say.

16:29 Now, of course we had to be eliminated.

16:31 We totally understand that. But it's like there was.

16:34 Like Blunt about, I mean, yeah, that conversation happens while

16:37 she come in and have a cup of tea, like and like.

16:40 Or I mean, look, I understand. I understand having to be

16:42 direct, because you can't. There's no, there's no skirting

16:48 around the truth. Your daughter has been murdered.

16:50 That needs to be stated. Absolutely don't go.

16:54 She's been shot and now she's dead.

16:56 No, but like you say, can we talk?

16:58 Unfortunately, we've got some bad news.

17:00 Yeah, like you. You OK.

17:06 And look, yeah, I do understand the whole idea, you know, and I

17:08 think from what I, because what I read about it, like I read it

17:12 obviously not to that detail. And when I read that she was

17:15 talking about the fact that they'd been told you'll need to

17:17 be eliminated as as as suspects, the way I sort of read it was

17:21 like, you know, yeah. And she was very accepting of

17:23 that. They were.

17:24 Yeah. But I thought I didn't realize

17:25 it was that blunt of a conversation though of the way

17:28 that came out. Like, yeah, I understood it with

17:30 the point of like, I'm glad they've been open with them and

17:32 saying like, obviously in this situation to make sure that we

17:35 are covering all bases to find the right person, you

17:39 immediately as family, et cetera, have to be included in

17:42 that of people that we look at. Like absolutely.

17:44 Yep. Good.

17:45 Do your job. You know, please clear me and do

17:47 'cause I know I can be, you know, like, that's, that's it.

17:49 Please do your job. Yeah, 'cause this I want the

17:51 person founders. Yeah.

17:53 Yeah, for sure. But wow, that's so blunt.

17:56 Anyway, in the end, her parents and her husband Mark, were

18:00 eliminated as suspects. Like, they were absolutely,

18:03 categorically they had no involvement in her murder.

18:05 Yeah. So now the police are sort of at

18:08 a point where they're like, OK, next sort of circle out.

18:11 Let's figure out what we can. Define they still had mark on

18:13 their radar as potential. Nothing was glaringly obviously

18:17 that could be, could be. Him, but he could have organized

18:19 something. You just don't know.

18:21 Yeah. Well, that's sort of looking at

18:22 it like that. So basically Mark was still not

18:23 ruled out, but definitely her parents and that sort of yeah.

18:26 So they started looking at to see who else could be there.

18:30 Yeah. And I've, I've read a few

18:32 different scenarios as to how they move to their next suspect

18:36 on their list. So I'd be I'm intrigued to hear

18:39 what you have you only heard one or have you heard multiple ways

18:41 in which? This is 1.

18:42 So what I found was that they actually found they were going

18:45 through James a handbag. Yes.

18:47 And at the bottom of her handbag, there was a phone

18:50 number scribbled on a piece of paper.

18:52 OK, so yeah, Ron tells slightly different.

18:54 OK, He says that it was a in her handbag, but it was a card, like

19:00 a business card. Like so a business card for the.

19:03 Police, Yeah, yeah, OK. But I've also heard that it was

19:07 an anonymous tip. Oh, yeah.

19:11 Oh, I haven't heard that one. Yeah.

19:13 Do we know anything? More about that.

19:14 The other one I've heard is that her dad was a butcher.

19:19 Yep. And he worked at like the Mooney

19:21 Ponds market and had his butchery there and that

19:25 obviously then Jane would be around that a fair bit, spent

19:29 time down there around the markets.

19:32 And this particular person also spent time at the markets and

19:34 went to that butcher's and they met each other there.

19:37 Yes. So I I think that's how they

19:39 met, right? Yeah.

19:40 So I'm pretty sure the way this police officer and Jane met is

19:44 because the police officer would organise the fortnightly BBQ at

19:48 the police station on a Friday night, right?

19:50 And would buy their sausages and meat from Jane's dad.

19:54 Because I've I've jumped ahead of myself.

19:56 Sorry. My yeah, you have a bit, but

19:57 that's. OK, I've heard another way of

19:59 how they met too. Oh, right, yeah.

20:02 Anyway, well, this is this is what I've heard yeah, that that

20:06 they met and as a as a consequence of being such a good

20:09 customer of John Jane's dad, yes.

20:14 And being around so frequently, they've met they've developed a

20:18 bit of a friendship outside of the butchery slash police and

20:23 we're known acquaintances, probably not friends.

20:25 And then they've introduced at some point, Jane's been

20:29 introduced to this police officer in that, in that sort of

20:32 social circle. Right, because what Ron tells it

20:36 as is that she was his. House cleaner.

20:40 He she was. That's how they met those.

20:42 That is true too. So they they met in this way,

20:45 and Jane was just looking for a little bit of extra money.

20:48 Yeah, she wasn't working in any official capacity at the time.

20:52 She had young kids, and we all know what the juggle is like.

20:56 You need flexibility in whatever role you've got when you've got

20:58 young children. So she was doing little odd jobs

21:02 like that and he was looking for a cleaner.

21:04 He was a single man working probably pretty crazy hours and

21:08 stuff, and decided that he wanted to clean up.

21:11 And so it was through John's. So John, Jane's dad, yes, that

21:16 they sort of made this connection and that's how that

21:18 came. About OK, so both are true like

21:20 because I was reading. Both are true, yeah.

21:23 How does that all feel? Love it.

21:25 OK great. I was hoping that would be the

21:26 case to be honest, because then it all comes together.

21:29 It really does. So, Jane.

21:31 So whether it's on a scrap piece of paper or there's this police

21:35 card, they've called him. They've called this police

21:37 officer. Yeah, we can't name this guy

21:40 because nobody knows his name. It's never been released into

21:43 the media at all. So we will call him the police

21:48 officer. There's no other way in which we

21:49 can describe him. But they've contacted him and

21:53 when they've gone to his house to sort of figure out what the

21:58 go was, they've found some really interesting things.

22:03 They firstly looked at him and he fit the description of the

22:08 shorter. Belly man?

22:10 Yeah. That was first, uh oh, yeah.

22:13 But yeah. And then they walked in.

22:15 They walked in and what do they see?

22:17 They see a shrine to Jane. He was obsessed by her.

22:22 He. Obsessed.

22:23 Oddly obsessed, They've confiscated his or had a look at

22:26 his. I don't know that they took his

22:28 laptop away, but they've tried. To access, Ron tried to access

22:31 his computer and he went, I can't get on it like can you?

22:35 Can we have a look on your computer?

22:36 And he goes, oh, it's the password's Jane's birthday.

22:40 Yeah. 170363. So that was another red flag.

22:47 Massive red flag. Yep.

22:50 And then subsequently, yeah, he also purchased or tried to I.

22:55 Know he actually did, but he definitely changed his will.

22:58 He changed his will. Yeah, he did.

23:00 He also tried to later on. So as this investigation

23:05 progressed, yeah, he tried to buy a burial plot next to where

23:09 Jane was buried. Yeah.

23:12 Wow. Yep.

23:14 So wow. Wow, this is looking really bad.

23:17 For him it is especially because he also wasn't cooperating with

23:21 police. No.

23:22 Well, that that's kind of I can. And there's one sort of

23:24 description I've heard of that that I kind of go, all right, I

23:28 can understand now a little bit of why he was so uncooperative.

23:30 Did you listen to Andrew Rules podcast?

23:32 I think about it, or it wasn't. Yeah, because.

23:34 Oh. Well, they, they're almost one

23:37 and a saying, one and a saying. They're both awesome.

23:39 Yeah. Great journalist, great and

23:40 great podcasters. Yeah.

23:42 Yeah. So because he was a police

23:45 officer, he obviously contacted his union.

23:48 So and the police union have very good lawyers attached to

23:51 them. So I mean, as we would say to

23:53 anyone who's being looked out for a lot, for anything, whether

23:55 you're innocent or guilty, lawyer up.

23:58 Like you don't want to be caught in a trap of anything like with

24:00 police. So you lawyer up.

24:02 So that's what the union have basically done with this guy and

24:05 they have instructed him to not comment.

24:07 Yep, but in in not commenting though he's obstructed yes

24:12 things and and he's taken favour, it certainly hasn't.

24:16 And Ron had a little bit of a chat with him about that later

24:19 on. Yeah, yeah.

24:20 So we'll get to there. We will get to that, actually,

24:22 yeah, we'll talk about that a little.

24:23 Bit later, but basically at this point he's looking like someone

24:27 who is potentially could he have put, could there be a rejection

24:31 here from Jane and that's basically triggered him to

24:35 murder her? Yep.

24:37 So it's looking pretty dodgy for him.

24:40 Things are not looking great. I mean, he's, as you said,

24:44 physically meets the description.

24:45 He's got a shrine to her in his house.

24:47 Her birth date is his computer password.

24:52 A lot of things are adding up here.

24:55 Did you find anything out about whether they actually had a

24:59 relationship or not? This no and I you can't confirm

25:03 it. He says yes, but is that very

25:05 once it's very one sided, you're only getting his side of that.

25:08 If he had this like weird obsessive thing, maybe like

25:10 things were conjured up in his head.

25:12 Although there was a one hour phone call, one hour 15 minute

25:15 phone call, which, and this was like a less than a week before

25:19 the murder. Yeah.

25:20 So they've checked obviously when they raided his house sort

25:22 of thing, they've found he's gone in through his phone.

25:24 Records. Yeah.

25:25 And so he said at the time that he had a 15 minute phone call

25:28 with her or one minute phone call, sorry, on that particular

25:31 date. And then when they've gone and

25:32 checked his phone records, it turns out the phone call was not

25:35 a minute, it was an hour and 15 minutes, which to me, someone

25:39 who, if you're like, I'm not interested in this guy, you're

25:42 having an hour and 15 minute phone.

25:43 Call, no, you're not. But she, from everything

25:47 everyone has said about her, she was a really caring,

25:51 compassionate, really kind and lovely woman.

25:55 If she thought, I mean, she obviously would have known he

25:58 had this obsession with her and maybe she was just trying to be

26:01 really nice and talk him down and, you know, I don't know.

26:05 And. Maybe that phone call was that

26:06 look I'm not interested phone call.

26:08 Yeah, and I'm gonna let you down gently and.

26:10 We'll talk this through. She was really maybe.

26:12 I mean, as females we are taught to be nice and we probably

26:16 shouldn't sometimes. We shouldn't, absolutely.

26:19 So yeah, I I can when you put it into that sort of context, yeah,

26:22 maybe. And that's maybe why he didn't

26:24 want people to know how long the phone call was.

26:26 Like, you know, maybe it was like, you know, yeah, we've had

26:28 a brief chat like cuz we're cool.

26:31 Yeah, we have these quick one minute chats because we talk all

26:33 the time, Yeah. So basically at this point,

26:35 we've got Mark's kind of on the radar still.

26:38 He's not ruled out, but he's not.

26:39 But there's nothing glaring obvious with him.

26:41 The police, the police. Officer as well.

26:44 Just really. Quickly, sorry, you know, go.

26:46 I mean, he also had no alibi for the day.

26:48 There was nobody. He was not working that day.

26:51 And he lived on his own. There was nobody to corroborate

26:54 his whereabouts at all. So another red flag.

26:57 Lining up for him of like going this is bad.

26:59 So this this point Ron is actually having a chat with as

27:03 he does his underworld connections, which we need to

27:07 get into like some Melbourne underworld stories down the

27:10 track. That'll be a series that will

27:11 not be a single no no. There's a lot in that that we

27:14 can get into. But yeah, there's a man within

27:18 that underworld met by the name of Des Moran, otherwise known as

27:21 Tuppence. Tuppence loving.

27:24 OK, Sorry. Anyway, Ron as he does, he has

27:27 connections with these people. He is, he's beautiful with

27:31 everyone he speaks to. He's not just caring and lovely

27:33 to the people who are victims. He builds these relationships

27:37 with the people he needs to to get information.

27:39 Yep. So he's and he's very

27:40 respectful, very respectful. The way he speaks about people

27:44 is just generally very amazing. So anyway, he's caught up for a

27:48 chat with Tuppence and Tuppence says to him I've got a bit of

27:52 info for you and what he says is that there was a pot bellied man

27:58 who came into the cafe where he would regularly mate hang.

28:02 Yep, I could probably name it. We won't.

28:07 What do we mean in Carlton? Are there so.

28:09 You don't say. Yeah, so there was this man came

28:12 in and he paid someone else $2000 to loan a gun.

28:19 Now, so this guy does that leaves.

28:21 With this gun, no questions, no questions asked.

28:24 As you know, comes back though, days later and to return the gun

28:30 and the guy responds to this pot bellied man.

28:32 Oh, no, no, no, no. I don't want to touch that gun.

28:36 That's dirty. You killed Jane Thurgood Dove.

28:40 And the pot bellied man turns back and goes, yeah, I did

28:45 because her husband Mark told me, paid me to do it.

28:50 Did he though? So yeah, so anyway, this is the

28:53 information he's got from a Philly.

28:56 Well, what's the word for it? Not a reputable.

29:00 Source, reputable source, but at the same time certainly in the

29:03 know. So he's had to take this

29:06 information as it is and go, well, this isn't helping Mark's

29:10 case. Let's we can't we can't rule him

29:13 out Still. He's there's now another bigger

29:16 question Mark over him than there was, but not enough to be

29:19 going and arresting anybody, obviously.

29:21 So this has caused a fair bit of confusion for Ron.

29:24 So at this point, being who he is, he has decided he wants to

29:27 use some very different technology to kind of help him

29:30 rule someone out. And he's gone into what at this

29:33 point in time in 1997, it wasn't widely used and it certainly

29:36 he's even as he said he goes, was never going to use this in a

29:39 court, but he decided to use a polygraph machine.

29:43 So he brought in Mark and he brought in the police officer to

29:47 sit down and do a polygraph. And from the polygraphs they

29:50 found that Mark passed the shining colours.

29:53 He completely passed. He was very truthful in what he

29:57 said he, but he had no involvement in Jane's death.

30:01 So he that really settled it for Ron that he could eliminate him

30:04 from it. But the police officer did not

30:08 pass the polygraph. But again, can't be used in

30:11 court and doesn't go to the point of saying you can't you

30:16 killed her. So we can't charge him still.

30:18 But it's definitely still a massive question mark over the

30:22 police officer. The question that they posed to

30:25 him during this polygraph was, are you responsible for the

30:29 death of Jane Thurgood Dove? And he said no, but all of the

30:33 physical indications showed that he was being deceitful.

30:38 Yeah. So OK, this adds more weight to

30:42 the fact that this police officer has had something to do

30:45 with Jane's death in some way. So let's leave that there for

30:50 now. Yeah, I was going to say, do you

30:51 want to come back to it? Or I think we come back to.

30:53 That, yeah. So basically right at this point

30:56 in time, we're looking at mark has been eliminated, but the

31:00 police officer is still question marks.

31:03 This goes on and on and on. And they're not finding any more

31:05 information. There's no more.

31:07 Three years down the track, they organize an undercover operation

31:14 of which we have no knowledge of.

31:15 We it's, and that's rightfully so.

31:18 Those kind of operations are very, they don't like to release

31:21 what their tactics are and those sorts of things because

31:23 obviously then under undercover operations won't work.

31:25 Yeah. They can't become public

31:26 knowledge how they operate with those things.

31:28 Although I do have a friend who's an undercover cop, but I

31:33 can't name it. Anyway, I heard a few things,

31:38 but interesting, very interesting work.

31:42 So, yeah, anyway, undercover operation happens.

31:45 From whatever came of that undercover operation, they were

31:49 able to eliminate the police officer.

31:53 Ron sat down with that guy after eliminating him and said to him,

31:56 mate, you have wasted our time because you have dodged

32:01 questions, made yourself look guilty.

32:04 And his response to that was, well, I wanted to protect Jane's

32:09 name because I didn't want it out there that she'd had an

32:12 affair. He also admitted at the time

32:16 that when he was asked about about that question during the

32:22 polygraph about whether he he was responsible for the death of

32:25 Jane Thurgood Dove, and he said no.

32:27 The reason it came up as him being deceitful is because at

32:30 that time he thought that Mark had found out that they were

32:33 having an affair and Mark killed her.

32:35 So he's fateful and yeah, he felt responsible in some way

32:38 for. Her murder.

32:40 So that's why it came up positive, Yeah.

32:41 Because he did feel responsible, Yes, According to him.

32:44 Like According to him. But then So what I find really,

32:47 I just think it's bizarre, if you actually really cared for

32:51 Jane and you really wanted an outcome where they would find

32:54 the person who's bloody well murdered her, why be

32:58 obstructionist? Why not just put everything out

33:01 on the table? I understand in the initial

33:04 instance that he's had that legal advice from the police

33:07 union and from a criminal lawyer who was employed by the police

33:11 union. So that's fine.

33:12 But surely at some point you would be like, OK, I'm actually,

33:15 I need an on the record interview now to actually go

33:19 through and state everything I know.

33:21 I mean, he knew he wasn't responsible for her death.

33:24 Why couldn't he just come out there and say that?

33:27 Yep, and put it on record. And say what happened.

33:30 Yeah, like. And as you said.

33:33 Ron I somewhat think though, that's because I don't know that

33:37 there was a relationship there and I think he was by not saying

33:40 anything and alluding to things, it made him look like more like

33:43 he was. He was able to get Jane.

33:44 I agree with that. I agree with what you're saying.

33:47 I just think he's why. Is this man a police officer and

33:49 is he still? I think he is, which really?

33:52 Yeah, Fuck. I mean, I don't know if he is

33:54 now like, you know, however many years later and.

33:57 Things of people. But I know he continued to be a

34:00 police officer for many years after this absolutely incident.

34:04 Yep. So basically, so now we're at a

34:06 point of like, who's responsible for this?

34:09 Nothing. What do we do three years down

34:11 the track? So time ticks on further.

34:15 And this is where John Miguel really comes into the forefront

34:19 because he goes into bat for his daughter, basically, and he

34:23 actually asks of the government to put up a $1 million reward to

34:27 find out information about Jane. Can I?

34:29 This is quite. Yeah.

34:29 Do you want to go and explain how that all?

34:31 Yeah, I can, but we just need to go back a little bit.

34:34 So this actually happened, that happened in 2001.

34:36 So just previous to this though, another SO Andrew Rule, who was

34:43 a journalist, and John Sylvester, they were working

34:45 together at the time and they'd heard a tip because again, a bit

34:49 like Ron, they had connections to underworld figures and to

34:54 crooks and whatever. And they decided because they

34:59 were looking into the story and what could have possibly

35:01 happened, they were really curious.

35:03 So they actually decided to door knock down near Drew St. and

35:06 figure find out what was going. On Yeah, but Ron tells a

35:08 different story of how, like legally I guess it came up.

35:12 Yeah, yeah. Well, this is it.

35:13 I mean, the the journalist reporting, they obviously have

35:16 to be careful as well, but this is this is what they say

35:19 happened. Yeah.

35:20 They've knocked on the door of, you know, several neighbours in

35:24 in the street and it has come to light that potentially there was

35:29 somebody else in the street who may have been a target, a

35:33 potential target for this gangland style killing.

35:37 Yes. So Muriel St.

35:41 Yeah. Jane.

35:43 Jane and Mark's house was three houses from the corner.

35:47 They lived in a light coloured weatherboard house.

35:51 There was a street light out the front of their house.

35:54 Jane drove a four wheel drive, a blue Jane, a blue Toyota, a very

35:59 blue Land Cruiser. Jane had blonde hair and three

36:03 children, three young children. And school aged?

36:06 Yep. Yep, a woman by the name of

36:11 Carmel Kipri or Kipri You Kipriyanu.

36:13 Kipriyanu. That's it.

36:15 But they they go by Kipri. Yeah, also lived in Muriel St.

36:20 Nidri. She also had blonde hair. 3

36:26 houses from a corner, light post out the front.

36:31 Drove a similar 4 wheel drive. Had three children.

36:36 Who was school aged? Yep, Yep.

36:38 OK. So there's lots and lots of

36:40 similarities. Similarities.

36:41 Yep. Two women.

36:42 Yep. Carmel's husband, Peter Kipri.

36:46 He's a really interesting character.

36:50 So Peter Kipri was involved in drugs in the underworld.

36:59 He had a very unlikable person. Yeah.

37:02 Not the nice, not the nicest person in in the room.

37:05 No, he pulled off some kind of $200,000 insurance fraud.

37:12 Yeah. With a With a man.

37:14 With a man by the name of Philip Peters.

37:17 Also known as. How could this?

37:20 Mr. Laundry because he could clean millions of underbelly

37:27 money. So this guy was an ex solicitor

37:30 by the way, and he's like somehow found himself into the

37:33 underworld. He's a lawyer.

37:34 He's a lawyer. At this stage, like, you know,

37:37 like while he's doing this, he's a lawyer, OK?

37:40 Oh yeah, yeah, maybe just now he's an ex lawyer.

37:42 Now, because after all this, yeah, like he had to be knocked

37:46 off the bar. So the way that I understand it,

37:49 it's quite a complicated story, but I think Philip Peters has

37:54 basically commissioned the death at some point, the death of

37:58 Peter Kipra, yes, he that did not happen well.

38:02 Yeah, so Peter Kipri, I know he got a tip off that it was

38:06 happening via the police. There was 'cause obviously the

38:09 cops onto a fair bit of all this stuff at the time and he's,

38:13 they've actually been able to infiltrate and stop the hit

38:16 happening. Yeah.

38:17 So Peter has survived it. However Mr. Laundry ended up in

38:25 I think it was 1994. April 1994, he was arrested and

38:28 charged with conspiracy to murder and obviously because him

38:33 being a lawyer, pretty nifty bargaining.

38:35 He did some good play work, and he ended up being released from

38:40 jail in 1997, mere months before Jane Thurgood Dove was murdered.

38:46 That's it. So the inference now is that you

38:51 know Peters has. So Peters has consulted with

38:57 another man named John who was an ex butcher.

39:00 Now this is not Jane's dad. Well, he was hired so that he

39:07 could butcher people and get rid of bodies that didn't.

39:14 That ended up not working, obviously.

39:16 This is then when Peters has gone to prison.

39:19 Yeah. Peters has come out of prison.

39:20 Yeah. And he's like.

39:22 Whilst in prison, Oh yes, he made some connections with some

39:26 pretty heavy criminals in jail, one being a particular Geelong

39:31 bikie. Just put that under your hat for

39:33 the moment. So we'll come back around to

39:35 Geelong Bikies. We will carefully.

39:41 So the basically they've decided, well, we can't go after

39:45 Peter Kipri because everyone's looking out.

39:47 Yeah, everyone's looking out for him and whatever.

39:50 So they've decided to put a hit out on his wife, Carmel.

39:53 Well, that's yeah. So this is what we everyone's

39:57 making an assumption of it that yeah, at the point, like, yeah,

39:59 yeah, yeah. But there's no proof of it.

40:03 No evidence. No.

40:04 Like, so. And they still don't know.

40:06 OK, Maybe that's what Philip Peters did, Mr. Laundry.

40:11 But who are the people who actually committed the crime?

40:14 Like itself, as much as I probably hold him more

40:17 accountable than anyone, but there's in there.

40:19 But there's actually people who committed it.

40:21 Well, they know he didn't pull the tree.

40:23 No he doesn't. The physical description.

40:24 He had another aim. Someone.

40:26 Yep, which comes back to good old Tuppence and his info being

40:30 pretty accurate. Other than the fact that it

40:32 wasn't Mark, it wasn't the husband that was putting the hit

40:35 out, which I mean, God, who knows Hitman.

40:38 Not exactly the most intelligent people.

40:40 Well. Clearly we had no idea who this

40:41 guy was that was actually asking him to do this job.

40:44 And I don't know where he even got the name Mark.

40:45 I mean, we've probably got Mark at that point out in the media

40:48 because the fact was it was the wrong woman.

40:53 And if they he and all the information they were given

40:55 apparently from this Peter Mr. Laundry was three houses down

41:01 from the corner. The blonde haired woman who

41:03 drives 3/4 wheel drive. So I saw something that they

41:07 were actually following Jane for four days before they murdered

41:10 her. So that was the thing like that,

41:12 that in their investigation they found out that because obviously

41:15 there we should go back a little bit, that that that car that was

41:18 parked at the bottom of her driveway that the shooter got in

41:22 and drove off in was later found burnt out, unfortunately, which

41:27 meant there was no evidence in it.

41:28 So these guys knew what they were doing in that sense.

41:31 So that was that made it a little bit more like this is a

41:33 bit of a professional hit in some ways, as much as a hit can

41:35 be professional because they aren't the sharpest tools in the

41:38 shed usually. So.

41:41 But the neighbors had were able to say, we've seen that car like

41:44 that blue Holden Commodore that you've shown us on the news now,

41:48 all those sorts of things that was here a few days ago.

41:51 I saw it parked down that end of the road on that day and I've

41:53 seen it parked there on that day.

41:55 So it was kind of coming together a bit of like this was

41:57 she was being surveilled. Yeah, you know, in some way.

41:59 So the. Police also, you know, this

42:02 added to the fact that it was a professional hit in terms of the

42:05 car, that car, because it had actually been stolen like six

42:09 months prior. Yeah.

42:10 And hidden somewhere, Yeah. So that there wasn't people

42:13 weren't actively out looking for it.

42:16 And so that also goes to potentially gangland type people

42:21 who knew what they were doing, at least 12° sort of knew what

42:24 they were doing. Yeah.

42:26 But if we circle back around to 2001 when the $1,000,000 reward

42:31 was being so John McGill, who was he was very determined that

42:33 he wanted to, he wanted to find out who did this.

42:36 And I think with the overhanging of this of like, was this a

42:38 mistaken identity situation? Was is there something that was

42:41 wrong here? And he wanted to know what

42:43 happened to his daughter. So him and a few people got

42:47 together. So they that wanted answers on

42:50 their own children's missing and murdered cases.

42:53 So there was George and Christina Helvigas, whose

42:57 daughter Messina was killed at Faulkner, who was called at the

43:01 Faulkner Cemetery in October 1997.

43:04 Roger and Joy Memory, whose daughter Elizabeth disappeared

43:07 from Ringwood, which is not far from us, her unit in Ringwood in

43:11 1994. So the six parents who'd all

43:14 lost daughters in terrible situations decided to come

43:18 together and approach the government and ask for these,

43:21 this $1,000,000 reward to get some answers on these cases.

43:25 So at the time we had Premier Steve Brax.

43:28 We can. Yeah.

43:30 Anyways, so he, to his credit, many people didn't want to do

43:34 this. But to his credit, he decided to

43:36 put the money up so. So this was specifically a

43:40 reward, Yes. For information relating to an

43:44 arrest or progression of a case. Yeah.

43:47 Where it was a seemingly random attack on a victim.

43:51 Yeah. We will do a an episode about

43:54 Messina Hel Vargas because that's a really interesting

43:57 case. And the.

43:58 The perpetrator. Oh, my God.

43:59 I mean, there's so much out there about it.

44:01 Yeah. The $1 million reward, once it

44:05 was posted, basically within 48 hours, the names of the two

44:12 people were in the, you know, Crime Stoppers had been

44:16 contacted in the names of the two people who were involved in

44:20 Jane's death. Yeah.

44:23 Were told to the police, Yeah. So criminals are obviously, you

44:27 know, they're, they're tight until you offer a $1 million

44:31 reward. Yeah.

44:32 Just really quickly. Yeah.

44:34 Previous to this, there was a reward for Jane's.

44:37 Sorry, you know, in, in relation to Jane's case of $100,000.

44:41 Yeah. Messina Helvargus, her parents,

44:45 so they're of Greek descent. And there was a $50,000 reward

44:49 out for her, you know, for information relating to her

44:53 case. And her dad came out and said

44:55 when Jane's $100,000 reward was announced, he came out and said,

45:00 what, So a blonde Australian woman is worth twice the amount

45:04 of my Greek daughter. And that is actually how John

45:08 McGill and I can't remember Messina's dad's name, but how

45:14 that's how they sort of connected and George, George,

45:17 and that's how they sort of got together and started lobbying

45:20 the government for this $1 million reward.

45:22 So. Put on them, yeah, I mean, yeah,

45:25 he really though they did a lot to get that over the line and

45:28 but rightly so. And as you say, the tips came in

45:32 very quickly for all three of those cases.

45:36 Both the other two cases were solved.

45:38 Yep. Very, very quickly now for Jane

45:42 Thurgood, Dove tips came in real quick.

45:45 Within 30 minutes, they got a tip that they would they carried

45:48 on that they followed up that was gave them brilliant

45:50 information. However, to this day it still

45:53 remains unsolved. So that great tip came from a

45:58 crook who rang in and what Ron did was because basically this

46:01 moon dollar reward was there. He was like, I don't want to get

46:03 false information. And this guy was pretty high up

46:06 in things. So he offered him 10 grand First

46:10 off to meet up and then to straight up give him 10 grand

46:13 when they arrived when he arrived.

46:14 So Can you imagine this cop like rocking up with his water cash

46:16 like to hand over to him and he said, if the information you

46:19 give me checks out, I'll follow up with a Fort with 40 grand.

46:24 So he heads down to meet this crook down in Eastern Beach,

46:27 right. And so he's in his car and he

46:31 does love this quote from from from Ron Idols.

46:34 He goes, I was shitting myself. That's a technical term for

46:39 being very nervous. And I love the fact that he's so

46:45 honest about the fact that he's full on crooks and he's not he's

46:48 not in their world like as much as he is, but he isn't he's not

46:50 one of them, but he he carries himself with them.

46:53 So he. He you look at Ronnie, you think

46:56 he's this big gruff, you know, brave man.

46:58 Yeah, of course you'd be shooting yourself.

47:00 He's a teddy bear, let's be honest.

47:02 He's such a lovely man. Yeah, So I love that.

47:06 So this is where it was confirmed by.

47:08 Well, not confirmed by this guy yet.

47:10 So he told him the story of that it's mistaken identity and

47:15 everything and things that he'd already heard.

47:17 So again, Ron wanted to really check this information,

47:19 obviously again. And because he got a fair bit

47:20 more information about who these characters were that were

47:22 involved, he then went down to Barwon Prison and spoke to yet

47:26 yet another really badass person.

47:28 But at least he's behind bars and not in the same car as him

47:31 handing cash over. Good point.

47:33 Yeah, I feel that would be a lot more safe.

47:36 And this guy in Barwon Prison confirmed everything this guy

47:39 said, but he wasn't just able to describe these people.

47:43 He also, well, sorry, he did the same.

47:44 They gave the exact same names as well involved.

47:48 So the Potbelly killer, he was nominated as a former Rebels

47:53 Motorcycle Club bikie by the name of Stephen John Morty.

47:58 So he was also in photos and things like they showed

48:02 witnesses, people were able to identify.

48:04 That's the guy. Yeah.

48:05 So that that that witness that I was talking about, the neighbour

48:09 who was standing across the road.

48:10 Yeah. He picked Morty out of a lineup.

48:14 Yeah. A.

48:14 Photograph, photograph out because I was fortunately at

48:17 this point in time. So this is 2003?

48:20 Yes, in 2001 Morty died so he drug.

48:24 Overdose. And well, yeah, OK, sorry, I'll

48:28 get a little bit more into him. So I was looking up some biky

48:31 websites. God, your browser history, Our

48:35 browser history said like, not crash.

48:37 Yeah, totally. Don't go looking at mine.

48:39 Sorry. This is I'm sorry, but because I

48:41 have no sympathy for this man, so I'm just going to go into it.

48:43 All right, so. Yeah, go.

48:45 So Morty complained that he was not feeling very well, but he

48:49 ate a cherry ripe and some ice cream before vomiting and still

48:53 managed after that to finish off 2 bottles of coke.

48:57 Healthy man, pot bellied. I believe the next morning his

49:02 housemate didn't go into his room because he was he liked to

49:06 sleep in and stuff, so he didn't check on him at all.

49:09 But about 2:50 in the afternoon, the housemate went in to check

49:13 on him and found that he had no pulse.

49:16 So they believe that he, yeah, there was drugs in his system,

49:22 but it was more likely cardiac arrest, which could have been

49:25 caused by the drugs potentially, but also could have been just

49:30 generally his lifestyle in general.

49:32 I think, I think that's right. They, I know the level of drugs.

49:38 It was heroin at the level that they found in his system was not

49:41 compatible with life. So, yeah, whatever way that all

49:44 came about, yeah. Yeah, I love it.

49:47 Cherry ripens some ice cream. And two bottles of Coke when he

49:50 wasn't feeling good. Although last night, OK, so we

49:53 were talking before about how Ollie had had this operation

49:56 yesterday and I was so tired. I didn't sleep the the night

49:59 before. Yeah.

50:00 Last night we had dinner and then after dinner I was like, I

50:03 really feel like eating something sweet.

50:04 I was so tired. But, you know, I just needed a

50:06 sugar. Yeah.

50:07 So I ate ice cream, a chocolate bar, and then I raided the kids

50:13 Halloween lollies. And by the end, by the time it

50:17 was time to go to bed, I was like vibing on another level.

50:19 And I woke up. I actually woke up this morning

50:21 feeling so yuck because I think I just had so much sugar.

50:25 Hangover. Sugar Hangover.

50:27 It wasn't even an alcohol hangover.

50:29 How annoying do you? Cheers anyway.

50:32 So look, what I'm saying is I can understand the mode of

50:35 sometimes you just need something sweet and nothing.

50:37 Nothing. When I'm going to vomit like I'm

50:39 feeling mad. I'm like, oh, I don't roll set

50:41 on my stomach, cherry ripen some ice cream and then some coke.

50:45 Wash it down with a couple of bottles of cake.

50:47 Oh, no, God, no. I just love that they've put

50:50 that out there. That's what the roommate I had

50:53 to say about his bikie mate, Yeah.

50:55 What else could you say? Really.

50:56 Oh God, yeah. So it.

50:58 Wasn't enough standing bloke, You know that you if you've got

51:00 nothing else nice to say this. Is it, I mean, so again, so

51:03 we've got this guy who he's been identified by witness, all that

51:06 sort of stuff, like potentially you could go to court and you

51:08 could arrest him for that. He's dead, unfortunately, so we

51:11 can't go any further with him. The next one on the list was the

51:16 man who would organize the car. So as you said that that Holden

51:20 Commodore that was in the the driveway etcetera had been

51:23 collected earlier. That was well, it was organized.

51:27 It wasn't just a pinched a car drove around the street.

51:29 It was organized by someone who knew what they were doing.

51:33 And this guy was named as James Ann Reynolds.

51:36 So name is also known as Jamie. I believe, yeah.

51:38 Jamie Reynolds? Yep.

51:40 So Reynolds was he. He was the one who obviously.

51:45 He was the getaway driver. He was the no, no, he wasn't the

51:47 getaway driver. No.

51:48 So he was actually the guy who, well, somewhat getaway driver.

51:52 So he actually, he organised the cars.

51:54 And so there was a getaway driver separate to this guy in

51:57 the car at the bottom of the driveway who drove off with

52:00 Morty. Jamie met them where they burnt

52:05 the car out. Yeah, with a with a second car.

52:07 Yeah. So that makes we've got three

52:09 people who are being named here. Well, one not being named, but

52:12 two being named and the third involved where so he's collected

52:16 them from the burn burnt out car to take them elsewhere again.

52:20 But so that was his role in this apparently, allegedly.

52:26 So Ron was very keen to speak to this Jamie.

52:29 He was still around at this point, obviously wanting to

52:32 speak to speak to him and get a bit more information.

52:35 Unfortunately, Ron went to go and get resources to be able to

52:38 like look into this guy more. They needed to know who he was

52:41 and what was going on with him to be and then approach, just

52:43 sort of just walk up at the guy's doorstep.

52:45 You don't need to have a bit of a team around you to go, right?

52:47 Who is he? What is he doing?

52:47 What are we gonna talk to him about?

52:48 And some information to kind of add weight to what you're to

52:52 what you're then gonna accuse. Absolutely.

52:54 So there's a bit more to it than just knocking on a door.

52:57 But unfortunately Ron was declined any resources because

53:01 the Piranha Task Force, which as we've said, we will go into the

53:05 underbelly world of Melbourne in a series I think.

53:07 But the Piranha Task Force of what was looking at taking down

53:10 the underbelly world in Melbourne, very well known in

53:13 Melbourne in terms of that. So we unfortunately there was no

53:16 resources available to him because they were all being used

53:18 on this Piranha Task Force. Now what?

53:21 How do you feel about that? Yeah, I'm really disappointed in

53:23 that because I feel like that we should, and I understand it,

53:27 like it becomes a resource issue in terms of money as well.

53:29 And like we've got enough cops. And at that time we needed lots

53:32 of cops because there was a lot going on in Melbourne in that

53:35 situation that surely some, someone could have been found to

53:39 be given to Ron to follow this up.

53:41 I think so. I think, you know, the gangland

53:45 war was being fought amongst gangsters.

53:48 Yeah, I know there were certain situations where there was

53:51 collateral damage of innocent civilians, but on the whole they

53:55 were just murdering each other. Yeah, which you know.

53:57 Which, fuck, whatever. Well, no, to be fair, whatever,

54:00 because you deal you. You deal in that.

54:03 That's it. That's what's gonna happen to

54:05 you potentially, but then not to throw resources into the

54:09 investigation of a a brutal murder in front of her children,

54:14 innocent of an innocent woman. I think that's disgusting.

54:17 Why are we allocating resources away?

54:21 I understand we needed resources to curb investigate and and curb

54:26 the gangland wars that were happening in Melbourne.

54:28 And, and it was intense. You know, this is in our living

54:30 memory. We we remember what it was like.

54:32 Yeah. But that's not to say that

54:36 resources then shouldn't also be put into investigating murders

54:41 of innocent people. I I I the fact that that was the

54:45 reason used, I guess the take. Infuriates me this has been this

54:48 many years, what's another few months gonna what gonna change?

54:51 But they had it was. So wrong in that but.

54:54 That pisses me off even more because they had intelligence.

54:57 They knew what they were looking for.

54:58 It's not like they were investigating a completely cold

55:01 case that they had no new leads on.

55:03 They had leads, they had people, they knew names, they knew what

55:07 they wanted to find out. It wasn't like they probably

55:10 only needed a few months worth of surveillance, or maybe not

55:13 even that, I don't know. It's so it's so frustrating.

55:17 And then to add to that frustration, seven months later,

55:21 he finally gets the resources he needs to go and chase this up.

55:24 And what happened? And dies.

55:27 He died so. Around in a boating accident.

55:29 Yeah, because he's a fuck wit out near Queens Cliff.

55:32 Yeah. Barlins.

55:33 Yeah. So apparently Ron had gone to

55:36 John and Helen McGill, Jane's parents the a few weeks before

55:40 and said, oh, finally we've got the resources.

55:42 We're able to, you know, we're able to investigate him.

55:45 I'm on leave for the next couple of weeks.

55:47 As soon as I get back. That is my number one thing.

55:49 We're on it. I'm going to get him.

55:51 Yeah, wrong. Goes on his leave, which he's

55:53 well and truly entitled to. I'm not even saying that's

55:55 anything. He comes back and finds out that

55:59 within that two weeks he died. Yeah.

56:02 Oh God. Like in a boating accident.

56:03 Yeah, just complete. Just drown.

56:05 I'm just being a Dick. He went out in this tiny little

56:07 boat. In a tin he's.

56:09 Really like big seas, Yeah, I mean, that bow and heads is

56:12 pretty rough. Yeah, yeah, he'd gone out

56:14 through the heads like in a little tinny.

56:16 Tinny, like, I mean, no one else would have done what he did.

56:18 Like, literally. And yeah, drowned, yeah.

56:21 So that leaves us with the getaway driver.

56:24 So we've we have got a clear description of who he is of

56:28 like, look what he looks like. His name has not been released.

56:32 I do believe the name has actually, I know the name has

56:34 been given to police. So by this way of this

56:39 information that came to them. So he's the one that's still

56:43 remaining. They just can't get him.

56:46 So they believe that the suspect is a Geelong bikey.

56:51 So this was where the connection comes back to Tuppence.

56:54 Tuppence. No, sorry.

56:55 Not Tuppence. Sorry.

56:56 No. Comes back to the Morty.

56:58 The No. Peter Phillips.

57:01 Phillips. Right.

57:01 Peters. Sorry.

57:02 Yeah. Mr. Laundry.

57:03 Mr. Laundry. Mr. Laundry in Prison met up

57:06 with a very highly ranked Geelong bikey, so we believe

57:11 that this is how he's organized. I.

57:13 See OK, so bring it back again a little.

57:15 Oh, so this is I love this comment too.

57:18 So the Jalong Baki who they said he's now nearing probably

57:22 retirement age. However, with his lifestyle that

57:25 he has, he doesn't work. They named him the human slug.

57:31 Just what a great. I mean, you get a really good

57:34 mentality. Question of who?

57:36 This guy is so clearly he. Yeah, yeah.

57:39 So there's him and obviously Philip Peters is still alive and

57:45 and this getaway driver, Yes. And they are still on the cops

57:49 radar and still looking into them.

57:51 They just haven't got any further with it, which is really

57:54 frustrating. But that's unfortunately where

57:58 we sit in terms of where things are at gone and where we're at.

58:02 Just I do, I did write down a quote which I'll go for.

58:05 I love it, you know, it's just, it's could anything more Aussie

58:08 have been said? So Jamie Reynolds, so the one

58:11 who died in the boating accident, a colleague of his who

58:16 has then colleague. Sorry.

58:18 Yep. Well, what are they associate?

58:20 An associate of his has has come forward and told the cops that

58:26 apparently he said we got the wrong Sheila.

58:32 Oh whoops whoops whoops. See Sheila?

58:36 Oh my God, for our non Australian listeners that means

58:39 woman. Yeah, yeah, yeah, oh man, God

58:42 love them so yeah, because so this mistaken identity whole

58:48 theory, yeah, which is just so beyond shit.

58:51 If you want to look into that further, Naked City the podcast

58:57 John Sylvester I believe goes into a fair bit and I think even

59:00 Andrew rule on his. Podcast is disgusted too.

59:03 There are. Other mistaken identity cases

59:06 yes that it's not as uncommon as you'd like to think because as

59:11 we said, unfortunately hitman when you when you think of a

59:15 hitman, you think of someone who's, you know, precise and you

59:18 know sneaky and and like really highly trained highly trained

59:22 something no, that's not who they are, unfortunately yeah.

59:25 These are people who are willing to just take money to go murder

59:27 someone. I mean, they're not like, you

59:29 know, high society. That's.

59:31 For sure. So there's quite a few

59:33 unfortunately of mistaken identity and quite horrific ones

59:37 that they go into on their podcasts, so worth a look into.

59:40 We'll put a link to, YEAH, to those episodes specifically

59:44 because I know Andrew Rule's podcast isn't named anything

59:48 along the lines of Jane Thurgood.

59:49 I can't remember what the title of the podcast is, but we will

59:52 put a link to that this specific episode because it's really

59:56 worth a listen. And I just love Andrew Rule and

59:58 I love John Sylvester. They're awesome.

59:59 Yeah. They're really good and their

1:00:00 journalism is really fun, their writing as well as their.

1:00:02 Podcast, it's great. They're really awesome.

1:00:04 Man, they're all over it. Another really sort of, I guess

1:00:08 another thing to come out of this and, and was informed by

1:00:11 Jane's case and by a lot of other cold cases was in 2021, a

1:00:17 cold case homicide hub was set up.

1:00:19 This is an online platform in Australia and they put the

1:00:24 police, it's run by the police, they put cold cases in the hopes

1:00:31 that anyone can access it. You can just go online and

1:00:34 search Cold Case Homicide Hub I. Believe they like feature like

1:00:37 5A. Month, I think something like

1:00:39 that, maybe 2 a week or something like that.

1:00:42 Yeah. But you can go in there and read

1:00:44 case notes and information. There's photos of the people who

1:00:49 are the victims and there are so many in there now.

1:00:52 But you know, if you've got any information, you know, they say

1:00:56 to call Crime Stoppers or you can submit anonymously through

1:01:00 online through the hub. Yeah.

1:01:02 Just worth worth. If you know something you know,

1:01:04 even if you think it's so pointless, it may end up being

1:01:08 that key bit of information that links something else together.

1:01:11 We don't know what. We don't know what you don't

1:01:13 know. That's.

1:01:14 It, yeah. So it's worth just saying it and

1:01:16 putting it out there and make it and then that way, you know, you

1:01:18 can feel better that you have, you've said it, but also that

1:01:20 they can do with it what needs to happen and whether that be

1:01:23 that's not relevant or 100% is. So yeah, yeah, yeah, totally,

1:01:27 absolutely. I'm sure that wherever you're

1:01:30 listing would have similar services, but here in Victoria,

1:01:32 obviously it's Crime Stoppers that you need to contact or via

1:01:35 that hub. Yeah, that's it.

1:01:36 Yeah. Unfortunately, Jane's parents,

1:01:41 you know, they're still out in the media.

1:01:43 As I said, when when this cold case.

1:01:45 Now I'm well and. Sure, definitely when this cold

1:01:48 case homicide hub was originally established, they were

1:01:52 interviewed by the media. They, they appeared on behalf of

1:01:58 the police and we're saying, you know how important it is for

1:02:02 information to come to light. And then they are, they're

1:02:04 really elderly now I. Think he was He was 83 at the

1:02:08 time. So, you know, Jane's mom says in

1:02:10 there that she doesn't want to go to her grave not knowing what

1:02:13 happened to Jane and not having anyone found responsible for her

1:02:16 death. And I think that's, you know,

1:02:19 that's completely reasonable. Absolutely.

1:02:21 Losing a child, I can't even imagine.

1:02:26 And to think of his kids who are now adults.

1:02:28 Yeah, I mean, they were all in there well into their 30s, I

1:02:31 guess now. Yeah, late 20s, early 30s.

1:02:33 And her husband, who's, you know, had to deal with the

1:02:36 fallout of all of this and losing his absolutely beautiful

1:02:39 wife especially. With that shadow, I guess of

1:02:41 like, was there a fair? Was it wasn't there?

1:02:44 Like maybe he knew more, I don't know, but.

1:02:47 I'm with you. I'm with you on that, though.

1:02:48 I really, I think it was very much one sided.

1:02:51 I don't, we don't know. Nobody knows what happens behind

1:02:55 closed doors. But I I think you're right.

1:02:58 I think we're we're on the same page with that.

1:03:00 Yeah, yeah. All right.

1:03:02 Well, I think that sort of leads us to the end of brings us to

1:03:06 the end of another, another week, another episode next week.

1:03:09 We're kind of changing the tune a little bit.

1:03:12 We're going to be talking about the Ashley Madison scandal.

1:03:16 Scandal saga. Yeah, that's fascinating.

1:03:20 And there's a lot of facets to this one.

1:03:22 Yeah, so much actually. Actually, this could be a big

1:03:25 week of research. I think it will be myself.

1:03:28 Yeah. What have we done to us?

1:03:30 I don't. Know what have we done to?

1:03:32 Us now just really quickly, I wanted to also mention our last

1:03:35 episode of this year. We are putting it out there to

1:03:38 our listeners to vote on what they would like.

1:03:41 So if there's a if there is a an episode you would like us or a

1:03:44 case that you would like us to cover DMS on Instagram, contact

1:03:48 us through our e-mail, which is 2 [email protected].

1:03:54 We I've had a few suggestions. Has anyone approached you or I?

1:03:57 I've had a couple come through online and then I had a

1:04:00 colleague of mine at work suggest a case as.

1:04:02 Well, a couple of suggestions of sort of, yeah, friends around

1:04:05 the trap of cool listing. OK, so yeah, but no, I'd, we'd

1:04:08 love to get some more, throw them out there, Yeah.

1:04:10 And the most popular one will win.

1:04:12 That's the case we'll cover for our last episode of 2024.

1:04:15 For sure. That's oh God, that'll be

1:04:16 interesting. What's what do we?

1:04:18 Oh. What's everyone into?

1:04:20 Yeah. All right.

1:04:21 Drop us a line everyone for. Sure, and don't forget to, if

1:04:24 you would like to, you can buy us a coffee at Buy Me a Coffee

1:04:27 forwardslash.com/two Crime Besties.

1:04:30 I'll get it right. I'll put it in the show notes

1:04:31 anyway. So click down there if you want

1:04:33 to buy a coffee. Thank you and jump on the

1:04:35 socials and chat. Cheers.

1:04:37 Thanks everybody. See you next time.

1:04:39 Stay curious, crime besties. Bye.